Here’s A Map Of Jay Carney’s ‘Small Sliver’ Of Americans Whose Insurance Has Been Canceled Thanks To Obamacare


Remember Jay Carney on NBC’s “Morning Joe” last week, telling a former Bush appointee that “only a sliver or cut” of the American population was getting policy cancelation notices thanks to Obamacare’s one-size-fits-all coverage mandates?

The comment was intended to diminish the strength of criticisms that President Barack Obama had lied about people getting to keep health coverage they liked, as well as to deflect some of the heat the Administration has taken for the egregiousness of the falsehood of one of the President’s most famous statements.

But here’s a map that illustrates just how many people on individual health plans have been dropped by their providers because of Obamacare. Four hundred thousand people in Georgia is not a sliver; nor is 900,000 in California or 800,000 in New Jersey.


The map reflects only individual policy cancelations and doesn’t consider the effects of Obamacare on employer-sponsored group plans. And it’s a snapshot of a moment in time in the early days of the Obamacare rollout. Across the board, these numbers will increase. And it only shows data gathered from 16 States and Washington, D.C.

Just for fun, here’s a link to a Fox News story about Obamacare’s effect on insurance costs hitting Republican States harder than Democratic States.

And here’s a story about a Virginia school district that’s considering hiring a gaggle of substitute teachers because it can’t afford the ballooning cost of employee benefits for full time teachers under Obamacare.

And one more about doctors at small New York offices defecting from their line of work or retiring early because of the market push toward larger, cheaper, inferior centralized health care that Obamacare is bringing about.

Looks like 2014 is not the year to get sick.

Personal Liberty

Ben Bullard

Reconciling the concept of individual sovereignty with conscientious participation in the modern American political process is a continuing preoccupation for staff writer Ben Bullard. A former community newspaper writer, Bullard has closely observed the manner in which well-meaning small-town politicians and policy makers often accept, unthinkingly, their increasingly marginal role in shaping the quality of their own lives, as well as those of the people whom they serve. He argues that American public policy is plagued by inscrutable and corrupt motives on a national scale, a fundamental problem which individuals, families and communities must strive to solve. This, he argues, can be achieved only as Americans rediscover the principal role each citizen plays in enriching the welfare of our Republic.

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  • BTeboe

    I totally agree with James Currier (above on FB). Biggest liar e-v-a-h!!! And then to go out and tell another lie to justify the first lie defies imagination. Does he think that we are all just a bunch of empty heads, waiting breathlessly for his next line of BS. I hope this bites the Democrats in the butt for years to come. Enough already!

    • Blank Reg

      I’ll believe they aren’t empty heads when they get off their arses and prove it. Until then, I’m skeptical.

    • Deerinwater

      Well,it won’t BT and I will tell you why. ~ The people that are on the losing end of this reform were never DNC supporters anyway.

      For the most part , they are the ones that have enjoyed the benefits of the disparity this reform was intended to correct.

      Tell me that I am lying.

      • Robert Messmer

        Sounds like you are saying Mitt was 100% correct with his 47% remark. But sorry calling this a “reform” in anyway except sarcastic is wrong. The SCOTUS ruled it is a tax and a tax it must be because it authorizes (supposedly)16,000 new IRS Agents and not one single doctor, nurse, or hospital.

        • Merle Dickey

          I think it is pretty evident that Mitt was right about the 47%. Maybe a little low.

          • Deerinwater

            Hmm? ~ remove farm subsides and corporate welfare and then we can openly discuss this 47% Mitt spoke of.

      • BTeboe

        We ain’t seen nothing yet. Not everyone that works is a GOPer, and they haven’t begun to start on the employer mandate, which by the way Obama illegally delayed for a year. Some companies have already dropped family coverage of health care and are only covering the employee. Just wait until the employee is dropped. This reform was never intended to correct any GD thing, it was a way to control the masses. If it had rolled out smoothly I’m afraid we would be on the way to socialism. I thank God all the time for this mess in the way it is impacting on Obama but I do feel sorry for the people whose lives have been turned upside down. Obama is a pathological liar and has been his entire life. Any body who can support this POS is a total loser who deserves what they get.

  • Guest

    Not only the biggest liar in history of american presidents, but also the FIRST Imposter. Nothing will persuade me he was born in the US and in any case he is British, as I am. So, how about me as Presidente?
    No one has been so incompetent, leading with his behind, belittling the country when abroad and allowing millions of illegals to come in and get everything free whilst the true citizens starve.
    When will those freeloaders wake up?
    When there is no more USA? Too late for tears then.

    • squeeze127

      Maybe he masqueraded as a foreign student to get into Harvard and Columbia? A U.S. citizen posing as a foreign exchange student! Wasn’t he supposedly housed with a Pakistani student? Aren’t foreign students housed together?

      • fahkir1

        I think he did that to get the government to pay for his schooling.

        • Karll

          Agreed. Those college transcripts are a better kept secret than the Kentucky Fried Chicken recipe!

        • squeeze127

          Grounds for impeachment if true! That’s why they’re hidden. Sure as he!! couldn’t get in on his grades.

          • Merle Dickey

            The POTUS shoud not be allowed to hide anything. Why did he spend 1 million dollars to hide his college records?

          • squeeze127

            That’s the $64 question, why? He used his name and is very good at deception, so he utilized that to get the Saudi Crown Prince to back him, thus he bows to him. We need Putin or someone to dig it up.

    • Merle Dickey

      He is just a face and mouth . Someone else tells him what to do and I wish the CIA or the FBI would start looking into it. He only says what he is told to say.

  • mr_bandit

    The employer-sponsored plans are not being canceled because they are “good enough”, ie they meet or exceed the minimums in the law.

    The individual plans that were canceled are CRAP – any real injury or illness would have bankrupted the person. Basically, the folks who sold these policies should be sued for malpractice.

    And – the folks who need the replacement policies are eligible for subsidies and the news “reports” where the prices are hauled out are only the most expensive, not the realistic levels.

    FOX NEWS pointed this out.

    And the reason the Republican states are being “hit harder” is because the governors of those states REFUSED to accept federal funds to increase Medicare.

    • Blank Reg

      Keep it up. Even Jim Jones got nearly 1000 people to drink the kool-aid.

    • BTeboe

      Newsflash – the employer sponsored plans are being cancelled as well, but just wait until the employer mandate kicks in. Obama illegally gave them a reprieve for a year. You aint seen nothing yet.

    • Craig Hardy

      The people entered into a private contract with the insurance company and liked their policy. Who are you to judge and call it crap? When the government begins to dissolve private contracts legally and willingly entered into by both parties, then we are living under a Marxist tyranny. They would have received more under their policies than the rationing that is in store for all of us under Obozonocare.. The federal funds come with strings attached, as they run out in 3 years and then the states will become bankrupt when they must assume all the costs. Obozonocare will destroy all of us !

      • Muffin Man Mashinksy

        The LOONY TUNES LIBs are always playing with Monopoly money…just like much of stimulus went to states so they did not have to make the crucial fiscal decisions to get their fiscal houses in order, the cuts, layoffs, union givebacks & other trimming of the fat…now that money is gone & many are in worse shape than before…but all the teachers got to keep their jobs & then Obummer administration had the chutzpah to count them as JOBS CREATED…..These SOBs should rot in Hell!!

      • Deerinwater

        The government didn’t ~ appears that the insurance companies did.

        • Craig Hardy

          Dope! The government did. The Obozo government declared any policy that had changes after the adoption of the Unaffordable Care Act as illegal to be sold. The depth of your ignorance is stunningly breathtaking!

      • Deerinwater

        it was not private if it was subsidized and employer based.

        • Craig Hardy

          To Deerinheadlights: You moron. When it’s employer based your salary is lowered so that the employer can offer the benefit, it is not subsidized. The employer takes the benefits into consideration when negotiating salaries. That part has no relevance as to whether the contract is public or private. Truly, this country is ***ked if someone has to explain something that simple and elementary to you Obozo zombies. Why don’t you go to Cuba? You Marxists love to say how great the health care is there. You can live in a Marxist paradise and sing the praises of Fidel, a person whom I’m sure you hold in great estime. Now, I have no more patience with you. I can see you are a mere troll and will not waste my time with a Marxist ideologue.

          • Deerinwater

            Then why must it be federally subsidized at all, if it’s as you say?

      • Merle Dickey

        That is the plan.

    • rbrooks

      do you support mandated auto insurance?

      • Vis Fac

        When are you going to answer my questions you COWARD??

        I’ll answer yours because I am NOT a coward. I do not support mandated insurance. This is because when you buy insurance you are charged for “uninsured and under insured motorists” Given the fact that we have a plethora of illegal aliens driving WITHOUT insurance makes mandated insurance MOOT.

        When are you going to wake up and smell the coffee? Don’t you realize these are CONTROL measures? They keep chipping away at OUR rights and because they don’t effect you now doesn’t mean they won’t get to you in the future by then you have alienated too many people to even want to think about poor little you!!

        To sit back hoping that someday, some way, someone will make things right is to go on feeding the wolf hoping he will eat you last – but eat you he will.

        You don’t have to be a Marine to make a difference the only requirement is being truly patriotic and the willingness to back it up!!!

        Libertas inaestimabilis res est

        • rbrooks

          speaking of cowards. why did you flee your homeland and desert your dear uncle hitler.

          • Deerinwater

            He was on long distant recon and decided to stay.

          • rbrooks

            i think his mind left on long distance recon and never came back.

          • Vis Fac

            Well rbrooks it is official I OWN you as you STILL haven’t answered my questions and yet I have answered yours to the point that you have absolutely nothing to support your agenda so now you “attempt” to malign me and once again FAILED miserable.

            FYI there is not much one can do when they are 5 or 6 years old (of course a brilliant mind such as yours would know that right?) and if you must know unlike you my parents saw the writing on the wall and refused to participate in the forthcoming genocide. We fled to where we could actually make a difference rather than be culpable. Unlike you we knew what was right and what was wrong and acted accordingly.

            Now since you are so benevolent besides sitting on your butt and leaching off the system what have you done for society?

            Knowing that you are a FRAUD and a COWARD you won’t reply.

            To sit back hoping that someday, some way, someone will make things right is to go on feeding the wolf hoping he will eat you last – but eat you he will.

            You don’t have to be a Marine to make a difference the only requirement is being truly patriotic and the willingness to back it up!!!

            Libertas inaestimabilis res est

          • rbrooks

            all those who stayed and fought for their country & then helped to rebuild that country…..while you cowards fled like the rats you are.

            who could ever trust an admitted coward????

          • Vis Fac

            Still soiling your diapers I see.

            So much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don’t even know that fire is hot.

            To sit back hoping that someday, some way, someone will make things right is to go on feeding the wolf hoping he will eat you last – but eat you he will.

            You don’t have to be a Marine to make a difference the only requirement is being truly patriotic and the willingness to back it up!!!

            Libertas inaestimabilis res est

      • jimmie smith

        Therein lies a choice…you don’t have to drive or own a vehicle…right?

      • regulus30

        old lib argument that is not comparing apple to apples; get something new that is relevant; mandated car insurance is a joke as well, are you ignorant enough to think EVERY ONE HAS IT; AT THE time they need a license yes, then they let it lapse; government CAN NOT MAKE PEOPLE DO A DAMN THING if they do not want to ; it is called freedom of choice; right or wrong; a polce state does nothing to improve compliance to fed/state mandates. there are two facets to auto insurance; 1.] liability to protect the other drivers and 2.] comp collision to protect your auto and your lender [replacement cost]. not the same as you buying health insurance to protect you from financial loss from illness. 30 million are STILL GOING TO BE UNINSURED SO THE PROGRAM IS A FAILURE; DAH. costs can be managed without obama telling me how to do it.

      • regulus30

        no one ever goes to a hospital ER and is refused service;; Medicaid already covers the poor and slackers; Medicare covers the elderly, high risk pools are already available for preexisting conditions and children call already stay on parents policy if they are getting educated [ which obviously] is NOT HAPPENING TO LIBS KIDS.THIS IS ABOUT “CONTROL” ; ROBOLIBTARD.

      • Vigilant

        Not for people who don’t drive cars.

        • rbrooks

          you are the reason we now have mandated health care.

          • Vigilant

            Let me see if I’ve got this right. You would have everyone pay auto insurance even if they don’t own cars?
            Perhaps we should just give all our money to the government and let it decide how best to spend it.
            No, my socialist friend, YOU are what’s wrong for this country.

          • rbrooks

            you have it wrong, as usual. mandated auto insurance was for anyone that owned or drove a vehicle. under the guise that they might be involved in an accident.

            all mandated health insurance does is include anyone that might ever need medical care.

            you support mandating insurance. don’t complain when they finally got around to including everyone.

            what country do you live in that does not use socialism?

            it is ironically amusing that i fight for freedom for all from mandated insurance, while you conservatives sit on a personal liberty site and fight to end liberty for some. (as long as you not included, of course)

          • Vigilant

            Your paltry attempts to play word games disclose your complete lack of logical skills and propagandist nature. Your words are nonsense. Take an English course, sonny.

            You say, “all mandated health insurance does is include anyone that might ever need medical care.” The proper analogy, which eludes you like the ignoramus that you are, would be “all mandated auto insurance does is include anyone that might ever drive a car.” Of course, you’re too obtuse to see that.

            Add to that your complete misconception of the word “freedom.” One must truly laugh at your murder of the language when you say, “it is ironically amusing that i [sic] fight for freedom for all from mandated insurance, while you conservatives sit on a personal liberty site and fight to end liberty for some.

            YOU are fighting for freedom from mandated insurance? No, idiot, you are fighting against that. Let’s hope when your head stops spinning that it’s faced to the front again.

            And who’s fighting to end liberty for some? You are!

            Or will you now wish to revise the Declaration of Independence to read “life, liberty, the pursuit of happiness, a guaranteed job, health insurance, an I Phone and three square meals a day? NO, my misguided friend, health insurance is NOT a natural right.

            You are a rank amateur when it comes to debate. You argue against yourself without even realizing it. Are you sure you aren’t smilee under a new screen name?

          • lakeside227

            rbrooks is smilee????

          • lakeside227

            Car insurance is mandated by STATE government. People who CHOOSE to own/drive vehicles MUST have insurance because their ACTIONS – controlling a large, motorized vehicle – may cause harm to others.

            Legislating the area of transportation is NOT delegated to the federal government – nor is it DENIED to state government. That means Constitutionally, legislating this object, IS A POWER OF THE STATES.

            Health insurance is NOT a delegated power of the federal government, nor is it denied to the states. Therefore, it is a STATE power. Not only is health insurance NOT a delegated power of the federal government, dictating to a private company the services it MUST offer and the prices it CAN and CANNOT charge, is NOT a power of the federal government.

            The federal government’s powers are enumerated in the Constitution. If a power or object is NOT listed in the Constitution, the federal government has NO authority to legislate that object. Those powers CANNOT be defined or changed by a branch of the federal government – SCOTUS. ONLY the People can change the Constitution by amending it. The federal government has NO authority to change ANY part of the Constitution or redefine the meaning. Nor can it ‘grant’ NEW legislative objects to itself.

            “all mandated health insurance does is include anyone that might ever need medical care.”

            False. Mandated insurance forces EVERYONE to purchase a service from a private company. Mandated insurance says that because a person EXISTS, they MUST buy this. There is NO freedom in that. Unlike car insurance which says IF you CHOOSE to do this you must also do this, forced health insurance says you have NO choice – you are alive, therefore you MUST do this. The government is permitted to tax ACTIONS of the individual – earning, buying, owning, selling, using, inheriting, etc. It is NOT given permission to tax us just for being ALIVE.

            All insurance costs are based on risk factors. High risk drivers MUST pay more in premiums because they cost the insurance company MORE in claims. People who live in flood zones MUST pay more in house insurance premiums because their claims cost the insurance company MORE. Poor health and pre-existing conditions COST the insurance company MORE in claims so those people MUST pay more in premiums. Insurance companies are FOR PROFIT businesses, if they don’t make a profit – they don’t stay in business.

            Universal health care/single payer is NOT within the scope of the federal government’s power. The federal government SHALL NOT do this UNLESS the People amend the Constitution to delegate it that power.

            The Constitution is Supreme Law, it delegates FEW and DEFINED powers to the federal government. Those powers are defined by the Constitution – not the misinterpretations of a panel of 9 men. The FINAL arbiter of the Constitution is the People. The Constitution was written by the People, the power it delegates to the federal government comes from the People, the People are the guardians of the Constitution.

            The government is NOT altruistic, it does NOT do things for the benefit of the People. Government acts in the best interests of GOVERNMENT and the people who run the government. It does things to retain and increase its power, by legitimate means or illegitimate ones. That is why the price of liberty is eternal vigilance by the PEOPLE. That is why unless restrained by the PEOPLE, ALL government devolves to tyranny.

            Those who believe it is in OUR best interests for the government to dictate to private businesses what products or services they MUST offer and what prices they are permitted to charge, are digging their own, and OUR, graves. They are handing over to the government the power to do the same thing to ANY business the government wants to control. They are handing to the government the power to control EVERY PART OF OUR LIVES.

            That is NOT the government our Constitution established and permits to exist. That is NOT the central government the states created when they ratified the Constitution. That is NOT the central government to which the People LOANED THEIR power to govern; the government the People gave consent to exist.

            You are NOT fighting for freedom or liberty, you are fighting for slavery and tyranny.

          • rbrooks

            actually, mandate auto insurance forces you to buy from a private insurer, or, if you are a really bad risk, then you must seek coverage from the state risk pool.

            mandated health insurance requires the same.

            your lack of logic, says that anyone that owns, drives or uses any form of transport must be insured. just in case their is an accident.

            health insurance says you must be covered just in case you might need medical care.

            they are exactly the same.

            the only difference with health care, is that everyone is going to be included.

            you seem to be confused. i am fighting to end all mandated insurance. you know, the freedom to choose. which you deny when you support mandated insurance.

            like the average poser on this site, you only support your version of personal liberty.

            i prefer freedom for all.

          • lakeside227

            Gonna try again, but I think it will be just as useless because you are not understanding when a government HAS the power to legislate an object and when it DOESN’T have the power. Car insurance and health insurance are NOT the same. One is based on an individual CHOOSING to engage in an activity and the other is based on EXISTING.

            The 10th Amendment:
            The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.

            Are driver’s licenses or car insurance mentioned in the Constitution? Of course not, they didn’t exist then. Since the Constitution doesn’t delegate power to the federal government to legislate that object NOR does it deny to states the power to legislate it, the states DO have the authority to regulate them, if they choose.

            Does the state mandate that EVERYONE have a driver’s license and driver’s insurance? NO. They say IF you CHOOSE to have a license and drive, because of the direct risk to OTHER people, you must have insurance. The people HAVE a choice, if THEY choose to drive, they must follow the laws the state HAS THE AUTHORITY to make.

            Is health insurance a power delegated to the federal government OR a power denied to the states? NO. That means the federal government has NO authority. States, if the residents in the state want their taxes to support health insurance for those who CHOOSE to be covered by state insurance, HAVE THE AUTHORITY to legislate health insurance. States can’t dictate to insurance companies either, but the state government CAN use tax dollars to provide it, like they use tax dollars for schools and other public services. They have the power to do this IF the People of the state authorize that use of their tax dollars.

            You can argue all you want about whether or not states SHOULD have this authority, but since it’s NOT prohibited by the Constitution, the authority is there.

            Now, the federal government has absolutely NO authority to legislate in this area at all, NONE. They may regulate INTERstate commerce (which is the buying, selling, transporting OF goods, services, merchandise), they may not COMPEL participation in commerce. Also, this is an INTRAstate purchase – something over which the federal government has NO control. The federal government is NOT saying IF you CHOOSE to do something you must buy this or pay a tax. They are saying YOU ARE ALIVE, therefore you MUST buy this or pay a tax. They don’t have the authority to do this.

            Furthermore, the federal government is CONTROLLING what services MUST be covered AND the prices for those services – no matter the risk factors of the people wanting coverage. The federal government has absolutely NO authority to do this.

            States CAN set minimum requirements for car insurance – they HAVE the authority, BUT everything else is LEFT UP TO THE INDIVIDUAL and the insurance company. They do NOT dictate that ALL policies MUST be the same OR charge the same rates for EVERYONE.

            The federal government is OUTLAWING some plans, even if the people CHOSE that coverage. The federal government is FORCING coverage of high risk and pre-existing conditions AT THE SAME PRICE as other people. The states don’t force car insurance companies to do that. The insurance companies WOULDN’T BE ABLE TO STAY IN BUSINESS if they did.

            States DO have the authority to legislate driver’s licenses and driver’s insurance. They ALSO have the authority to legislate health insurance IF THE RESIDENTS WANT IT.

            The federal government has NO AUTHORITY whatsoever regarding health insurance, dictating to private businesses, OR taxing ANYONE because they are alive and choose NOT to engage in commerce.

            To reiterate – power the state government HAS and power the federal government DOESN’T have.

            If you STILL aren’t getting it, find someone else to explain it. I don’t think I can make it any simpler to understand.

          • rbrooks

            insurance companies are forced to accept high risk. the high risk pool. they do get to charge more.
            there is a minimum auto policy that insurance company’s must provide. dependent on state. and there is a price structure. kind of.

            you use the same failed argument that was used when auto insurance was mandated. you might have an accident and you have a choice.

            the choice is not the mandated insurance. it is the choice to own or drive.

            you can whine about who has the right of authority all you want.

            you already gave the authority. when you agreed to mandated insurance.

            it is rather simple. once you give away any portion of freedom or personal liberty, you have effectively given it all away.

            using your logic, you could get sick with a contagious disease, or even a simple cold, and spread that to others. therefore, everyone needs to be insured. just in case.

            some folks can always find a way to justify the loss of freedom.

            it is far more difficult to regain a lost freedom than it was to give it up.
            but thanks for trying to sell mandated insurance as a govt right.

            the govt must love you.

          • lakeside227

            You are still not understanding.

            Governments don’t have Rights, they have powers. One of the powers AND duties of the government is to protect our Rights, lives, and property.

            We have the right, freedom, and liberty to travel. We do NOT have a Right to drive. A license and driving is a privilege. Due to the direct risk of injury to person and property, the states protect our lives and property by regulating driving and requiring insurance.

            “you already gave the authority. when you agreed to mandated insurance.”

            Again, they already had that authority. It is part of their duty to protect our Rights, lives, and property. We are NOT giving up ANY of our Rights, liberties, or freedoms. Driving has NEVER been a Right – there is no loss of liberty or freedom.

            If a person has a car loan, the bank requires more than just liability coverage. That is because until I pay off the loan, the car is THEIR property. I agreed to follow their rules to protect their property when I accepted the loan.

            “using your logic, you could get sick with a contagious disease, or even a simple cold, and spread that to others. therefore, everyone needs to be insured. just in case.”

            False. Medical care and medical insurance are NOT the same thing. People STILL have access to medical care even when they don’t have insurance. I don’t have insurance, but I still buy my Rxs, see my doctor, and get tests. I don’t have dental insurance, but I still see my dentist and have dental work done.

            Car insurance is related to our tort laws, legal liability, and compensation for someone I may have harmed. It also pays for repair bills. Health insurance benefits the insured, health insurance does NOT cover the medical costs of someone else if I give them a cold. I have no
            legal liability from passing the flu to someone. They cannot SUE me for that.

            Health insurance is for ME, so I can get medical attention if needed. Car insurance also benefits me, but it covers compensation for others, if I am legally liable for injuries or damages I cause.

            The reason I have to buy car insurance is because I CHOOSE to drive. I can avoid having to carry car insurance by choosing to not engage in the activity that necessitates car insurance – driving.

            However, the reason I have to buy health insurance is because I am ALIVE. I cannot avoid having to buy health insurance by choosing to not engage in the activity that necessitates health insurance – living.

          • rbrooks

            a license and driving is now considered a privilege. was not always the case.
            you can/are held liable for passing a disease or virus.
            tho it is not a common practice. yet.
            you are trying to argue constitutional theory. interpretation might be a better term.
            it is a moot point.
            the govt. has already rescinded and/or exempted many rights.

            which has been supported by a large portion of the population.
            in 50 years some one will use your argument to defend both mandatory auto insurance and mandatory health insurance. tho both will probably be a single payer system by then.
            btw- you can choose with health insurance. you can move to a country that does not have mandated health insurance. ( there still are a few)
            or you can simply quit living. (which is what much of this country would do if they had to give up transportation to avoid your mandated auto insurance.)

            you give the same argument that was used to pass mandatory auto insurance.
            it is amusing that many of us said the govt would not stop with just that.
            they would find a way to include everyone in more mandates at some point in time.

            the govt is just going to use your same rationale to mandate health insurance.

            there may be many revisions to this act. but eventually, we are all going to be included.

            i would not be surprised to see this become a mandatory payroll deduction.

            the govt does love it’s mandates.

          • lakeside227

            My gosh, your comments keep getting more absurd, bizarre, delusional, and insane.

            Back up your claims. When was driving a Right? When was someone held liable for passing an illness and how did their medical insurance cover that liability?

            What freedom is lost because car insurance is required? On what are you basing your assertion that state governments CAN’T regulate driving and require car insurance?

            You think moving to another country or to stop being alive to avoid having to buy insurance is a CHOICE?

            How am I arguing Constitutional theory or misinterpreting the Constitution?

            The government is ALREADY trying to mandate health insurance. They don’t have the authority to do that.

            How are you fighting for freedom from mandated insurance? And, what is your solution for when a person causes an accident, but they don’t have insurance? How is the victim of the accident going to be compensated for the harm to himself or his property?

            Why are you saying Vigilant supports mandated insurance? And what is my version of personal liberty?

          • rbrooks

            my gosh. it took long enough. now you sound like the normal poser on this site.
            when cars were first invented, there were no licenses required. everyone, with exceptions for those who were not considered to be of suitable heritage or gender, had the right to own and/or drive.

            you can do your own research on medical liability. start with aids.
            the freedom of movement, or transportation, is not lost?
            you have no problem offering absurd choices. why should you be exempt from absurd choices.
            if the govt does not have the authority, why do we have so many exemptions and restrictions to the constitution and the bill of rights?

            you simply want to join the govt, selective rights, selective authority, based on your personal definition(s).
            buy your own insurance and learn to protect yourself. are you a supporter of the nanny state?
            you and v both support mandated insurance. just not mandated health insurance.

            the govt has used your rationale to mandate once again.

            they are going to protect us, whether we want to be protected or not.

            thanks to you and those who support your convoluted view of mandates.

            how many folks do you think will still oppose mandated insurance in 80 years?

            would you be opposed if this was being done at the state level?

            do you oppose any of the restrictions passed by the govt?

          • lakeside227

            If you had bothered to read any of my other posts you would know what I support. I want the LEAST government interference in my life as possible. The state government DOES have power to make laws to protect our Rights, our lives, and our property. I will follow the laws they have the authority to make.

            State level??? That’s what I have been talking about, the state government!!!! The federal government has FEW and DEFINED powers. The states have EVERY other power not specifically denied by the Constitution. They ALSO must follow the prohibitions in the BoR.

            Our Rights are absolute, the federal government has no authority to regulate them in any way. They have NO authority to define them or dictate to us when THEY have violated those Rights. The government has done this over and over for YEARS. The BoR originally applied only to the federal government – states had the authority to legislate on any object not delegated to the federal government nor specifically denied to the states. Through the incorporation doctrine the BoR prohibitions became applicable to the states also.

            Of course there weren’t restrictions when cars were first invented. Your claim that the state doesn’t have the authority to regulate driving and require insurance is ridiculous. We STILL have the freedom of movement and travel – none of that freedom has been lost because a Right to drive was NEVER part of it. We can’t lose a Right that we never had. You have no evidence to support that, beyond your OPINION that we have lost that freedom, that we EVER had a Right to operate a vehicle. Do we have the Right to operate a plane? A train? Captain a large ship? No, we have to LEARN how to do those things and be certified FOR OTHER PEOPLE’S PROTECTION. That is because we can cause a GREAT deal of damage to other people when operating those vehicles. The state has a DUTY to make laws – as FEW as possible – to protect the public. The states ABSOLUTELY have that duty and the powers to ensure it. That is WHY we established government in the first place – defense, protection of our Rights – lives – property.

            You say the government doesn’t have the authority to require we pass a test showing we understand HOW to drive a car, the rules of the road, that we are competent? That if I cause harm to someone because I am driving, I have the ability to compensate that person. I say that is absolutely within their power to PROTECT other people on the road and out in public. Torts, which you don’t seem to understand. I have the RIGHT to seek compensation for harm caused to me by another person. Mandated car insurance is the STATE protecting that Right, my Right to life, and my property.

            You have offered NOTHING that says they DON’T have that duty and power to protect me. Nor have you offered a way that the state could fulfill that duty to each person without requiring a license and insurance.

            Medical liability insurance is for health care providers, for their negligence or mistakes. Health insurance DOESN’T have anything to do with medical liability, it protects the INSURED, it pays for the INSURED’S medical care. A person can be CRIMINALLY liable for DELIBERATELY making someone seriously sick, but health insurance DOESN’T COVER THAT – that is NOT what it is for.

            There is NOTHING in the Constitution or state constitutions that prohibits STATES from providing citizens with health care – NOTHING. IF the people of a STATE vote to allow taxes to be used for health insurance – the state has the authority to do that. The state CAN’T mandate it – because it is NOT for protection of OTHER people, but IF the PEOPLE want it, they can use tax dollars for that.

            You have a VERY poor understanding of the authority states have; the authority the feds have; and our Rights.

            How will the state fulfill it’s duty to protect the Rights, lives, and property of accident victims if driver’s don’t have to carry insurance?

            Geez, you have some nutty ideas and I do not say that lightly. You aren’t fighting for freedom, what you’re describing is anarchy or chaos.

          • rbrooks

            and now the small govt claim. except for all of the govt you selectively approve of.

            the states lost their power to the the republicans.

            you seem to be a bit confused.

            we have no absolute rights. we simply teach that we have them. the reality is that govt does grant rights and restrictions. regardless of what you think.

            occasionally, rarely, the public is able to regain a lost freedom.

            you prefer that rights be granted at a state level, rather than at a federal level. like it really makes a difference.

            you will follow all of the laws. just like the rest of us.
            you have no understanding of what govt can do. is doing. and will do.

            it is your contention that the country was founded to provide anarchy and chaos?
            you have an amazing lack of reality.

            health insurance, just like your auto insurance, is to be used to protect me from you spreading your illness. it protects me from any damages that the public might incur from you spreading that illness.

            every point you make for mandated insurance is valid for every form of mandated insurance.

            you have presented an eloquent argument for mandated insurance. while providing your own validation and justification for mandating that insurance.

            one more point that you mandate supporters miss. everyone pays for mandated auto insurance. regardless.

          • lakeside227

            Your ideas and beliefs are worrisome, you don’t seem to have a grasp on reality or an understanding of why our Founding Fathers established our Country. Not the powers that the People delegated to government to protect our Rights, our lives, and our property nor the difference between the exercise of legitimate powers and what is an infringement of our Rights.

            The government I approve of is the LIMITED federal government established by the Constitution and the state governments established by state constitutions. I approve of ONLY what is ABSOLUTELY necessary for the government to fulfill the duties with which WE charged them without intruding on the freedoms and liberties we have as sovereign beings.

            There is no level to our Rights, they are our absolute Rights that are off limits to state and federal government. They are NOT granted by anyone or anything – they are inherent, innate, unalienable. Because the governments aren’t honoring our Rights does NOT mean they aren’t absolute. Previous generations have allowed the governments to obscenely infringe on those Rights; they weren’t vigilant nor did they keep a tight hold on the reins of our government. We DON’T have to allow the government to tyrannize us, we can change it. The damage is great so it will necessarily take a lot of hard work and it won’t be quick.

            “it is your contention that the country was founded to provide anarchy and chaos?
            you have an amazing lack of reality.”

            What on earth would make you ask that? Where do ANY of my comments even hint that? YOU are the one who is advocating for anarchy and chaos by NOT acknowledging the LEGITIMATE powers we delegated to our governments.

            The fact that you STILL say health insurance is just like car insurance is PROOF you have NO understanding of it. Health insurance DOESN’T COVER OTHER PEOPLE, it covers the INSURED ONLY. If I get someone sick, they DON’T have the right to ask for MY health insurance information and then make a claim on MY insurance for THEIR medical care. My health insurance DOESN’T PROTECT YOU FROM ANYTHING. You are not demonstrating an ability to understand the difference.

            You ALSO, haven’t backed up ANY of your claims. You haven’t said how government would fulfill its duty to protect my life and property if it CAN’T mandate car insurance for drivers. You haven’t provided any evidence that regulating driving is a loss of freedom. OR that driving was ever a RIGHT. You haven’t offered evidence that the state DOESN’T have the authority to require insurance. You just keep repeating your opinions – crazy opinions at that. Which, again, I do NOT say that lightly. I don’t comment on articles to insult people, but your views are extremely disturbing and, quite frankly, very delusional.

          • rbrooks

            you have no grasp of how ridicules your claim of the intent of the founding fathers is.

            our rights? were those the ones they were denied to the vast majority of americans at the founding. or the rights that are denied today to a more selective portion of the population.

            the govt has to protect you? but you are against large govt or interference. so you want a nanny state?

            do you propose to force govt into abortion? gay rights? drugs? gun control? where do you draw the line?

            you live in a world of delusion. the govt., with the support of many like you, has been slowly stripping away are rights.

            you fail to grasp the intent of nationalized health care. it is to provide coverage for those who might become ill. or might be injured.

            in the same manner that auto insurance provides coverage for all involved, health care provides coverage for all.

            you make a better argument for mandating health insurance than most i have read.

            i find the views and opinions of most of the posters on this site to be highly delusional and disturbing.

            you are denying the reality of the situation.

            nationalized health care will eventually be a reality.

            regardless of how wrong anyone thinks it is or if anyone believes the govt has the authority to impose it.

          • lakeside227

            I have read the intent of our Founding Fathers in their own words.

            The DoI:

            “…all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.–That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed,..”

            The Preamble to the Constitution:

            “…in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.”

            The Preamble to the BoR:

            “THE Conventions of a number of the States, having at the time of their adopting the Constitution, expressed a desire, in order to prevent misconstruction or abuse of its powers, that further declaratory and restrictive clauses should be added: And as extending the ground of public confidence in the Government, will best ensure the beneficent ends of its institution.”

            The federal government was delegated FEW, LIMITED, and DEFINED powers. The STATES and the People reserved the powers NOT delegated to the federal government.

            “our rights? were those the ones they were denied to the vast majority of americans at the founding. or the rights that are denied today to a more selective portion of the population.”

            That was how society was when our Country was established. As the People became more enlightened, we FIXED the Constitution to ensure ALL people had the same Rights. Using TODAY’S standards to judge society when the Constitution was written is INVALID. Whose Rights are being denied today?

            “the govt has to protect you? but you are against large govt or interference. so you want a nanny state?”

            To SECURE our unalienable Rights, we establish government. To form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our

            We delegated powers to the federal government so WE could have justice, peace, defense, and a Country where we could live and work and pursue happiness. Our government makes laws, has law enforcement, courts, military for justice and defense. The rest of the government’s powers are to ensure everyone is equal in the eyes of the law and our property is protected, our persons are protected – from CRIME. To ensure the Country is a level playing field where everyone is able to live their lives the way they want and make of themselves what they want. Government is to do ONLY what we said they could do and ONLY what is absolutely necessary.

            “do you propose to force govt into abortion? gay rights? drugs? gun control? where do you draw the line?”

            My gosh, the government ALREADY DOES THAT. Abortion, gay rights, drugs, marriage, labor, education, etc. these are ALL state powers. Not federal powers. State governments are supposed to fulfill their duties the way the residents of that state WANT THEM TO.

            Abortion: it is NOT going away. It should be safe and as rare as we can make it. Efforts should be spent REDUCING unwanted pregnancies; gays have the SAME Rights as straight people; marijuana is NOT worse than alcohol and has MANY medical uses; guns are OFF LIMITS to government.

            All of our different levels of government have been going beyond their legitimate authority for years and years. Our Rights have been chipped away so much they are hardly recognizable anymore.

            How am I supporting the theft of our Rights? You aren’t able to distinguish between LEGITIMATE actions of the government and illegitimate ones. I, however, can tell the difference between the government exercising legitimate power WE delegated to it and when they go beyond their delegated powers.

            Car insurance is a LEGITIMATE exercise of LEGITIMATE state power. It provides compensation to VICTIMS of reckless drivers.

            I know EXTREMELY well what health insurance is for. Health insurance is NOT a legitimate power of the federal government. Health insurance benefits ONLY the insured. No one OTHER than the policy holder can make a claim for medical care on health insurance. Health insurance DOESN’T PROTECT ANYONE OTHER THAN THE POLICY HOLDER. You say differently – support that claim.

            I am NOT against insurance, I’m saying the federal government DOESN’T have the authority to FORCE me to purchase it. I think it would be AWESOME if everyone had health insurance – the government DOESN’T HAVE THE POWER TO DO THAT, THOUGH. Medicaid and other welfare is unconstitutional at the federal level. The Constitution delegates NO power to the federal government to provide this aid.

            You said you are fighting against mandated insurance, but your comments sound awfully supportive of it.

            I will do everything I can to prevent the federal government’s over-reach of powers – with health insurance and in other areas.

            Again, you have provided NO facts, NO evidence, NO proof of your claims. You are just repeating your opinions.

            I think you might have paid me a compliment, if so, thank you. If not, my mistake.

          • rbrooks

            all men are created equal…….. really? not even today is that a true statement.

            you just want to argue a republic vs a democracy.

            both have exceeded their scope.

            you are still confused. the legitimacy has been established. by a willing and supportive public. which the govt has used, is using, as the basis for their authority.

            you represent a very small portion of the public.

            i see no way to turn that around. do you?

            the reality of the situation.

            you were not mistaken and you are welcome.

          • lakeside227

            I disagree, see I still believe in the ideals and principles on which our Country was founded. All men ARE created equal, we are ALL equal in the eyes of the law. Don’t confuse what the GOVERNMENT is doing with the truth.

            Legitimacy? No. Stolen powers can NEVER become legitimate. The government is doing what it is doing because they AREN’T being stopped by the People.

            “Unless restrained, all government devolves to tyranny.”

            We HAVE the restraints necessary to keep our government legitimate, we just aren’t USING them. We let go of the reins of our government many years ago. Why should we allow it to continue? We don’t have to. Small portion? We are more than anyone even knows.

            The reason government has been allowed to do these things is because they convinced PREVIOUS generations that they HAD the authority to do it. People got complacent and were willing to let the government do what it wanted. The People were DELIBERATELY lied to about our Constitution, the power government has AND doesn’t have, and the options the People have for keeping control of the government.

            We aren’t unaware any longer. We KNOW what powers the government has and what powers they have STOLEN from the states and the People. We know that the government exists ONLY because WE allow it to. You are correct that the government is using the acquiescence of the public to do unconstitutional things. But, WE don’t have to keep letting them. They are NOT using Constitutionally acquired power, they are using STOLEN power, that makes a difference. The difference is that we just need to find and elect people who will support the Constitution, people who will repeal unconstitutional legislation. People who will impeach justices for THEIR power overreach. People who know that WE are the guardians of the Constitution – not SCOTUS.

            I think of the men who started our Country and everything they believed; what they risked and lost. All because they believed the People are the ones who control who governs them. Was that a once in a millennium event? Were those men wholly unique, their beliefs, determination, bravery, and honor never to be reborn in new generations? I don’t think so, I believe there are still men like that in our Country, we just need to find them.

          • rbrooks

            “Unless restrained, all government devolves to tyranny.”

            all govt’s are tyranny. just depends on where you are in that particular form of govt.

            you are only fooling yourself with the notion that all men are created equal or that all men are treated the same.

            read the posts on this board. they are never going to accept that all men are equal, or treat all men like they are equal.

            as long as the public is willing to support this govt nothing is going to change.

            you will have to offer a viable alternative that a majority of the public will support.

            your approach to this is a better method than what is normally used.

            but at some time you will have to provide more than just a discussion.

            the public is no longer interested in being involved in the administration of their govt. they just want some one to run it. as long as it is still working, they could care less.

            if it breaks they have temper tantrums till it starts back up.

            they do not want to know why it broke, how it got fixed or who repaired it.

            how are you going to change that?

          • lakeside227

            We ARE equal, didn’t say that PEOPLE treat everyone the same. One duty of the government is to ensure we are equal in the eyes of the LAW. That our Rights – we ALL have the same ones – our lives, and our property are protected equally. That is what is meant by created equal. We all start at the same place.The LAW treats us all the same. What we DO with our lives will not be equal, that’s impossible; where we end up will also not be equal, again – impossible. Created equal – not equal opportunities or equal outcome. We all start at the same place, what WE do is up to us, we won’t have the same lives or end up in the same place.

            That is ONE mistake people make – thinking that being CREATED equal means EVERYONE has the SAME everything. That is impossible AND not what created equal means. We WON’T have the same opportunities, the same education, the same job opportunities, the same childhood, the same home life. Those things are controlled by our parents choices, where we live, society – outside factors that cannot be made equal for all. IT WAS NEVER SUPPOSED TO BE.

            Created equal doesn’t mean the government has the authority to FORCE equal EVERYTHING on everybody. Doesn’t mean the government has the authority to TAKE from those who have more and give it to those who have less. THAT IS THEFT. ALL that does is create HUGE amounts of resentment, discourages people from TRYING to be successful, from working hard, creating something for themselves and their families BECAUSE THEIR HARD WORK IS STOLEN FROM THEM AND GIVEN TO THOSE WHO DIDN’T EARN IT.

            Government and the law must treat everyone equal, PEOPLE don’t have to think that. They can’t discriminate, but they DON’T HAVE TO ALL THINK THE SAME THINGS. Government CAN’T control our minds, can’t FORCE us to think the same way, or believe the same things. Government TRYING to do that causes problems, causes resentment, causes dislike.

            You are so very correct about the apathy of much of the public towards our government. They DON’T care about the day to day stuff – they only care when their ‘fair share’ is disrupted.

            But, not EVERYONE feels that way. We have a HUGE population of people that DO care what our elected officials are doing. They WANT it changed, but don’t have a way to do it because of the stranglehold our two parties have on our political system. We need to change that. People ARE ready, they are just needing that something to support – something that will be effective – not just electing one or two politicians who will fight like heck, but won’t make much of a difference.

            The New Federalist Party Platform

            P.S. People sometimes mention Jesus and Christianity as proof that we are supposed to help our fellow man, give to those less fortunate. Jesus WASN’T talking about GOVERNMENT doing this by FORCE. He was talking about PEOPLE doing it on their own – churches, groups, neighborhood organizations, other larger organizations – NOT GOVERNMENT. Government taking from the haves to give to the have nots is NOT following Christ or being a good Christian – it’s STILL THEFT.

    • Vis Fac

      Bandit Who is it to say weather policies are crap? You? The government?
      what gives anyone the right to dictate to others what they should and should not have?

      FYI the employers “group policies” were granted a one year reprieve from ODUMBOCARE because ODUMBOCARE is a Train wreck and the DUMBOCRITES wanted to stave off a disaster next November they want to try and keep as many seats as possible. The trouble with you liberals is not that you don’t know anything but what you know just isn’t true.

      To sit back hoping that someday, some way, someone will make things right is to go on feeding the wolf hoping he will eat you last – but eat you he will.

      You don’t have to be a Marine to make a difference the only requirement is being truly patriotic and the willingness to back it up!!!

      Libertas inaestimabilis res est

      • Merle Dickey

        I sure hope folks remember this next election , of course this is why they want to get the amnesty program in so the illiterate (some) illegals will vote democrate.

      • Merle Dickey

        I sure hope folks remember this next election , of course this is why they want to get the amnesty program in so the illiterate (some) illegals will vote democrate.

        • Vis Fac

          We also must account for the apathy of those like in the last election which gave ODUMBO a second term.Unfortunately people have no foresight but only live in the moment. Only until they are effected do they act by then it’s usually too late. Let’s hope it isn’t too late already!!!

          To sit back hoping that someday, some way, someone will make things right is to go on feeding the wolf hoping he will eat you last – but eat you he will.

          You don’t have to be a Marine to make a difference the only requirement is being truly patriotic and the willingness to back it up!!!

          Libertas inaestimabilis res est

    • SavaDude

      Oh boy! The GOVERNMENT will decide for me what I should have and what is best for me? Oh, yeah!!! FINALLY!
      All that personal liberty and responsibility sure was getting hard…

      • Deerinwater

        no, you decide that ~ you have choices to make.

        • Craig Hardy

          brain dead lib troll!

          • Deerinwater

            You must have lost something in the reform. ~ Tell us what it was that you lose and how long had you possesed it. And how did you acquire it to begin with?

            Then perhaps we can discuss being brain dead.

          • BTeboe

            And you must be someone who is gorging at the govt trough. You probably gained something in the reform – tell me what did you gain? You may not be brain dead, troll, but you are definitely dain bramaged.

          • Deerinwater

            You can review my Profile at your leisure. You will not see anything in it to suggest that you are correct.

            I am 65, still engaged in venture capitalistic endeavors exclusively in the “private sector , still a job creator and a US Infantry veteran who name does not appear on a black granite wall while some of my friends and buddies do.

            I have came this far employing the belief that “Equitable Exchange” in both public and private matters serves best the long term interest of all parties. Nothing has changed to make me think differently about “Equatable Exchange”

          • SavaDude

            Yes. I did.
            I lost my freedom to choose, and I have had it since I was born. I acquired it through the Bill of Rights and it was paid for by the blood and suffering of patriots since the founding of my country.
            How is it done in the country where you were born?

          • Deerinwater

            you can still choose, while you may not have the same options.

          • SavaDude

            Ah, yes. I get to choose from options that have been chosen for me by geniuses that know best for all of us. Sounds like the Land of the Free to me….

          • Craig Hardy

            I thought trolls lived under bridges, but you live under a rock. Millions of people are losing their health care because of Obozo’s lies and now are paying premiums two to three times higher so the Obamunist can use the hated IRS to launder the money and redistribute it. You call that reform? You ARE brain dead. In addition to being a troll, you are also a Marxist drone.

          • Deerinwater

            I am only a man, asking questions and making comments. ~ The reason for this reform was the huge disparity that kept so many Americans out of any system at all.

            I can understand you great pleasure to enjoy the benefits of this “disparity” for so very long. ` No doubt you feel “Entitled” after 30 years

            Whether the AHC Act is any better at affording more Americans a more level playing field and access to health care, it’s too early to say while clears there will be those disenchanted with the whole affair.

          • Craig Hardy

            To deerinheadlights: so the answer is to create a larger disparity by causing many, many more millions to lose their health insurance and make it unaffordable. Only a Marxist can understand and take pleasure in that. Is English your first language? Reread what you wrote above. It’s barely English. That’s part of the problem today; so many uneducated voters. Many you’re one of the illegals Obozo wants to transfer wealth to. Like feeding at the public trough, do you?

          • Deerinwater

            It’s Deerinwater ~ Craig, just “Deerinwater”. ~ say it as you would any compound word , ~ You have been offered correct spelling and it’s for you to get it correctly and no one else.

            You don’t know me, ~it’s clear ~ but I’ve been here for more then two and less the 5 years. Much, ~much longer than you, ~ Craig Hardy . Which entitled me absolutely NOTHING! ~ accept maybe the benefit of experience in dealing with moral superior, “yahoo’s” like yourself.

            For if you knew me, you’d have the good sense to not F—k with me and that i am not a liberal, but a man left with few choices and have always maintain the belief , that i’m receiving much better the I deserve and more than likely , you are too, and you are basically just a malcontent, ~ pissed off for being born without your permission, easily offended and that the world owns you something for the inconvenience.

            I enjoy toying with but ~whips like you like youself and consume them like I would a nice “snack” . ~

            First off, ~ you know that you are dealing with a mental midget and a moron, when they attack grammar or spelling. They have little grasp of the issues and little to fight with. Attempting to hide this fact, they attack grammar and spelling. ` I’m a southern gent ~ I speak and write with an “accent”~ indicative of my place and station that I was born into. I offer you no apology, I ask for none.

            TWO, It’s all a matter of “NUMBERS” and the power they bring to any final conclusion. ~ and if you or me have the ability to absorbed and assimilate data ,void of any preconceived ‘beliefs” and “opinions” .

            Obviously ~ you don’t possess such skills. You would allow your “feeling” to dictate your actions rather than your brain. Your anger, only makes you stupid, I am neither offended or impressed with your anger. Anything that you say, whether it be to me or anyone else, is reflection on and of you and belongs only to you.

            Three, ~ Not only America, but the entire advanced civilized world has and is still going through a revolution that started gaining popularity as early as the late 1960’s. ~ With the industrial age reaching it’s zenith and it’s fall into it’s decline the Information Age has slowly taking it’s rightful place.

            Four, ~ It’s bigger than “You and I” and there is nothing that either of us can do to stop it. Neither your or my approval is required or been asked for. ~

            Five, ~ much like the transition from the Agriculture Age to the Industrial Age, when draft animals were replaced with machines, ~ humans are now being replaced with machines.

            Six, Jobs! employment, ~ there are now less of them that offer meaningful long term careers. Less meaningful job opportunities exist today than 30 years ago.

            Seven, Population , a new American comes into existence every 14 seconds,.this takes into account deaths, births and immigration as our numbers swells to 325 million souls.

            Eight, A employer based health care program that was placed into effect 40 years ago that rewarded the loyalty of employee’s with government “incentives” and “subsidies” worked well for most American for as long as ” the loyalty of labor”was “HONORED” .

            Nine, This respect for labor and the labor earned dollar changed back in the mid 80″s and no longer exist today in 2013.

            Ten, ~ What changed, how did it change and why did it change?

            i’m as not going to supply you with the answers to number 10. I’m going to bed now ~ You figure it out ~ and then it will be “YOURS” to take personal pride in knowing and understanding.

          • craighardy

            To deerinheadlights: I earn. I’m a maker not a taker unlike a Marxist such as yourself. You are the malcontent. I do not, unlike you, wish to see my country fundamentally transformed. I believe in the Constitution and the principles of the Founding Fathers. I have nothing more to say to a Marxist.

          • Deerinwater

            Once again, hardhead, ~ It’s Deerinwater, ~craighardy

            And you never did have anything to say to me or anyone else worth consideration, so don’t flatter yourself.

            If it’s entertaining toying with my mocker that affords you some joy, try deer thu windshield on for size, because I can get in your eyes like onions. It’s only a matter of focus.

            stand down, or bring it ~ craighardy

        • SavaDude

          Funny, I could swear the president said that my policy got cancelled because what they chose for me was better. Darn it, now back to all that freedom…Man, that is so tough..I think it should be limited. It sure would make our lives easier.

          • Deerinwater

            I don’t remember him saying such. ~ but it seem that you do.

          • SavaDude

            Yeah, I recall him saying that what we had chosen to purchase for ourselves before his benevolent intrusion into our lives was ‘substandard’ and ‘cut rate’. Sure glad he was there to straighten that out for me.

          • Merle Dickey

            And more expensive.

    • Robert Messmer

      Nope not true at all. What the governors REFUSED was an expansion of Medicaid because the extra federal funds were only for 3 years after which the State had to pick up all the expenses. Medicaid not Medicare, two completely different animals.

  • mr_bandit

    Read this. I dare you. Shows the scam of the canceled policies – it is really a bait and switch on the part of the insurance companies – and Obama didn’t cancel the policies – the insurance companies did. And the scam is so obvious that several states have fined the insurance companies.

    Y’all just keep drinking the FOX kool-aid. And .. you would be surprised how conservative I am. I would even vote republican if the party actually followed their stated principles, which they use to wipe their asses.

    • Karll

      The daily kos? Buwaaaahahahahahahahah!

      • Muffin Man Mashinksy

        What conservative would ever be caught dead reading that BS?

        • Deerinwater

          ones that prefer to hear both side of the story I suppose?

          • dan

            know thy enemy,eh ? !

          • Deerinwater

            well? true, But it depends on what you seek, ~ Unconditional Surrender or Resolve and Resolution?

            I prefer the latter, finding the former out of reach, one sided and failing to address equality which was the primary goal to begin with.

          • dan

            …for a visual ,consider the Scales of Justice (they might have a Greek derivation as the scales of truth). critical reasoning is often sorely lacking …which is why i enjoy your comments.

          • Deerinwater

            Thank you Dan, ~ I try. At some point, we need to stop this train before we get to the bridge that’s washed out.

            Since, ~ just jumping off, ~ seems to be an unpleasant thought to consider.

            Too much blinding anger negates critical thinking where by in the Land of the Blind the one eyed man is King.

    • Vis Fac

      More Liberal Propaganda perpetrated by a liberal shill. What part of “if you like your doctor you can keep your doctor” If you like your plan you can keep your plan” and “the average family will be saving $2500 a year PERIOD ” don’t you understand?

      Not the “because you have crappy insurance and we will make sure your policy is canceled”

      Why you liberals defend such dishonest actions is beyond comprehension. You know we were LIED to yet you still defend the LIAR in Chief; this behavior is borderline lunacy and you should be institutionalized.

      To sit back hoping that someday, some way, someone will make things right is to go on feeding the wolf hoping he will eat you last – but eat you he will.

      You don’t have to be a Marine to make a difference the only requirement is being truly patriotic and the willingness to back it up!!!

      Libertas inaestimabilis res est

      • Merle Dickey

        many brainwashed young folks are out there now. sad

        • Vis Fac

          The brainwashing began in the early 70’s when the NEA organized the teachers. Most people don’t know that the NEA has communist roots just as most if not all unions.

          One of the primary goals of communism is to take over the schools to advance a their agenda which they have been quite effectively been doing for decades.

          Since liberals embrace socialism and socialism is the same as communism (communism isn’t used because communism evokes a negative connotation), liberals have decided to indoctrinate students rather than teach. Math English Science and History scores have plummeted far below what had been achieved in the 60’s These indoctrination camps are now propagandizing the liberal tenet such as the acceptance that the LGBT lifestyle is normal behavior.

          Students are no longer taught government or constitution declaration of independence but told that the government exists to take care of the people AND that the constitution is no longer necessary.

          The Socialist one dimensional idiot-ological indoctrination camps do all they can to suppress creative thinking and responsibility. Public schools are nothing more than suppressors with their inane zero tolerance policies.

          I suggest you read The Naked Communist,” by Cleon Skousen. Contained therein are 45 goals of communism to take over America

          Adding a couple of my own numbers: 46. Import anti-white racists from the Third World, via an open-borders policy, then force their integration to divide and conquer white Western civilization in North America.
          47. Feminize and disarm both the citizenry and military;
          especially disarm white males.

          You might want to view this video as it is a truncated version of the book

          Agenda Grinding America Down

          Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction. We didn’t pass it to our children in the
          bloodstream. It must be fought for, protected, and handed on for them to do the same. Ronald Reagan

          To sit back hoping that someday, some way, someone will make things right is to go on feeding the wolf hoping he will eat you last – but eat you he will.

          You don’t have to be a Marine to make a difference the only requirement is being truly patriotic and the willingness to back it up!!!

          Libertas inaestimabilis res est

    • Muffin Man Mashinksy

      Bottom line airhead….if there was no ObummerCare would these policies have been cancelled? Yes, ‘Tis a noble purpose to help insure those who cannot afford it, but is 20,000 pages of insane fines, taxes, regulations, excessive protocols upon Drs., patients, insurers that spread suffering for millions the way to do it? It is not about insurance , but about control & you are the one drunk on Kool-Aid!!

    • Dcp5674

      I don’t know Bandit, it’s a liberal blog with drop down posts asking to support Pelosi for Speaker. Conservative? Really?

      And I’d never support Pelosi for anything higher than janitor.

      • Merle Dickey

        The old bat should be strung up.

      • dan

        …and I thought I had marginal standards for cleanliness ….

    • Robert Messmer

      Hey you hear the truth–the Tea Party didn’t shut down the government Obama did. Not very well only about 17% of it. Of course Obama didn’t personally cancel the policies but his ACA and the requirement that the “grandfathered” policies would only be accepted as long as NO changes were made to premiums, co-pays, deductibles, etc. In other words NO you can not keep your stinking policy because Obama says so!

      • Deerinwater

        I see it differently Robert, ~ if you are looking for a single door step to attach blame. ~ then the blame would fall at the Honorable House Speakers doorstep for not calling for an Up or Down vote.

        • Robert Messmer

          You are certainly entitled to see it any way you wish, but it was Obama and Reid who announced many times that they were not interested in talking to the Republicans. They are just lucky they were dealing with a member of their club and not someone with real integrity. If there really was any difference between the two parties, the so-called shutdown would still be on going.

    • Merle Dickey

      What you are failing to say is the Obamass administration KNeW what the insurance companies would do. It is part of their plan.

      • $24100174

        Insurance companies did not cancel these policies…the obama administration did. Fox news is the only news co. that’s telling the truth, telling it like it is.

        • Merle Dickey

          I use to hear how Fox news lies and is full of propoganda and then I started watching and what they have been saying is coming true!! I love Megan Kelly .

          • Deerinwater

            well, for magic tricks to work, ~ illusion are required to appear real Merle Dickey.

            The secret to Most of Fox news magic tricks can be found in “omissions” . What they elect to not cover, what they elect to not reveal.

            And of course we all know , chicken’s don’t have teeth, snakes don’t have hips and palm tree don’t grow in Wisconsin.

            There is suppose to be a difference between hard News and Commentary and it been left up to viewer for the most part to understand the difference.

            Mislabeling and omission dominate Fox News. ~ Like Wild Bill McReally’s “No Spin Zone” while “spin” is what he’s serving up and represents the bulk of his programs.

            Bill has been brought to his knees a few times over recent years and has learned from the humiliation. ~ To today, he employed a spin off of the good cop,/ bad cop routine. Using some Eye Candy, radical right hottie that’s full of hate and making wild claims as she attacks the administration leaving Wild Bill to “Talk her down and being the “voice of reason” in the room. .

            You gotta love it! i wonder just how much he pays this woman or is she working for just the exposure on his show?

            Fox under the leadership of a brilliant man that understand marketing like few other’s, enjoys all the latitude afforded by law and some that he is not to offer you his wonderful product. Rupert’s legal staff is there to address such minor details and considered all in a days work and the price for doing business which makes for a fine write off.

            Fox comes with the basic bundle , ~ everybody receives “Foxed News”. Rupert would give it to you for free if there was a way to do so. It comes wrapped in a American flag and Cross and proclaiming Christian American values and suitable for every American home.

          • Vigilant

            “There is suppose to be a difference between hard News and Commentary and it been left up to viewer for the most part to understand the difference.”

            Gotta take you up on that, Deer. Megan Kelly, O’Reilly, Hannity and Greta are commentary and are not billed as anything else. The “hard” news (with commentary) is at different air times.

            As for omission, I have seen Fox break news on items no other network would cover. For example, Eric Holder went through Congressional committee meetings on Fast & Furious some 8 or 9 times before the MSM even began to cover it. The Kermit Gosnell debacle was another.

            On balance, the crimes of omission have been perpetrated many more times by the MSM than by Fox. Independent media analysis groups have consistently found Fox to be more fair and balanced than virtually all other media outlets.

            Is Fox more generally Conservative than other networks? Of course it is. It serves as a counterbalance to the rest of the media, which is hands down more progressively oriented than Fox. What’s good for the goose is good for the gander, and Nielson ratings back up their popularity..

    • Guest

      Mr. bandit why are you keep defending this mess by obama? I do not know where dailykos got their info/news, but they are dead wrong. The insurance companies didn’t cancel anything..obamacare cancelled them. And stop blaming Fox news…they’re the only, and only news that’s telling the truth. May the Lord help you because you’re still in the dark, you need to be weaned out of that obama kool-aid that you’re sucking in to.

    • lakeside227

      WHY did the insurance companies cancel these policies? They HAD to, those policies didn’t meet obamacare standards – the insurance companies didn’t WANT to cancel those policies. Does that mean those policies were bad policies? No, they were good policies that people were HAPPY with, they just didn’t cover all the services OBAMA thinks they SHOULD cover. Does that mean the new policies they have to get are BETTER? No, the plans cover more services, but these are services the people don’t want, don’t need, and will never use – at HIGHER prices.

      BTW, daily kos? Seriously??

      • Merle Dickey

        That’s right.

    • Merle Dickey

      I think you should be the one drinking they Kool-aide!

  • rbrooks

    i heard that all insurance is going to be cancelled and the irs is going to round everyone up and put them in fema camps. live in fear.

    • Merle Dickey

      Some folks are in fear at what’s happening so please don’t add to their fear:)

      • dan

        If they aren’t afraid…they SHOULD BE !
        Just because you’re NOT parinoid
        doesn’t mean THEY aren’t out to get you

        • Merle Dickey

          I didn’t mean to sound like I am not in fear, we should all be , but some go into hysteria and babble while I bite my nails and think of what I could do .:)

          • dan

            a good plan…i try not to overload donkeys , either , and provide a bit of soothing advice if possible to those just waking to reality. Stay calm and carry on , as the Brits would have it . Fear is usually based in ignirance , panic , in having no plan.

          • Merle Dickey

            You got it :)

    • Motov

      Barry Soetoro really,…REALLY needs to be in a tiny cell!

  • Average_Joe56

    Obama’s latest press conference…….

  • KingKen

    Take an aspirin and switch to herbal tea. You aren’t going to get out of this alive anyway. Presidennt Strangelove has right where he wants you. And don’t look to 2016 and an election to save your sorry arse. Hillary was indoctrinated by the same scumbags in the al-CIAda as was BO. As for the Tea Party…well…they are as weak as tea. AND…Good luck with your new position in the FEMA factory.
    But STAY POSITIVE-!!! You’re an Amerikan now-!!!

  • Sam

    obama’s plan is for a whole bunch of old people to go without the proper medical care they need. Well, they can get it if they have the money to pay cash because obamacare isn’t going to cover what Medicare covers today. Medicare will be phased out in 3 years. That’s the plan I have a feeling that obamacare will be like Medicaid, which is only good at the hospital because most doctors do not take it. The reimbursement rate doesn’t even cover the cost of caring for the patient. For instance, in Florida, Medicaid pays $6 on $100 worth of medical billing. This won’t keep a doctors office running, nor the hospitals. It will be like falling dominoes. Then the government can run in and rescue them and take over.

    • Merle Dickey

      Dr Ben Carson said he knew of a person that had an on going illness and all of a sudden could no longer get medicare coverage payments as 11 different medical faucilities told him they no longer excepted Medicaire. My doctor told me she was not taking any new medicare patients as it didn’t pay for anyhthng. The administration has taken millions out of medicare to start this phoney new ACA.

  • Matforce

    That is one of the many reasons why the $$$MULTI-BILLION Private Health Insurance Industry that has been milking this turkey for decades, should have been cut out of the pie in favor of a single payer system, like they do in other countries.

    A comprehensive private individual insurance policy with a low deductible runs between $600-$900/mo. I was quoted over $1,000/mo. for a Cobra for my son who turned 27 (perfect health, no pre-existing conditions; one of the young invincibles) in February of 2013 as he was no longer eligible for coverage under my employer’s plan under the ACA. Who can afford that?

    Single payer health care is the only option, and Obama was naïve to think that he could appease the massive corporate interest of the private insurance industry by keeping them as the middle men so as to avoid the blood-curdling screams emanating from the investment industry on Wall Street should anyone think about touching their gravy train. Did he really believe that by not cutting them out of ACA, they would well up with tears of gratitude or come close to anything that remotely resembles cooperation in return for the grotesque contortions he’s assumed as he bent over backwards to protect their continued extracting of the exorbitant premiums they take from individuals and businesses each month. The $$$Billions they extract in premiums, which contributes to their Hedge Fund Managers take (2% in & 20% out) as they invest this fortune on the Wall Street casino helps to fund the market, granted. But given the dirty tricks they’re playing with the individual policies including private plan cancelations, and the threat to boycott ACA altogether and leave those 30-40 million uninsured who can’t begin to afford a private plan to just go crawl off and die (liquidate all their assets first, though) to get the public in an uproar, they deserve to be cut off.
    Think maybe their uproar and dirty tricks has anything to do with the clause in ACA that states that the companies (in exchange for access to the potential $$$ BILLIONS that they can access through the ACA exchanges) must use 80% of the ACA $$$ for (ready for this?) Health Care (the audacity!!!). Not Multimillion $$$ CEO salaries, Hedge Fund LLC salaries, stocks, executive teams, etc. that currently ride the gravy train of private insurance premiums they extract from USA citizens who can afford their services? And to Hell with those who can’t…

    • Deerinwater

      I enjoyed your views. ~ I don’t know if you are correct or not ~ but your thoughts seems to ring clear and true.

      The good news is , ~ Status Quo that served the few and burdened all tax payers , whether they had insurance or not ~ is no more.

      If the old plan was so great for these select group of people then why the need of Federal subsidies?

      • BTeboe

        And why has our congress worked so hard to exempt themselves from this law? If it is so great then why did it need to be legislated into being? People should be knocking down the door and tripping all over each other to get into Obamacare.

        • lakeside227

          Yes, why is that? Even Sebelius doesn’t want an obamacare policy.

          • Deerinwater

            I don’t have a good or bad answer for your question. BTeboe.

            While , as I understand it, ~ it’s not uncommon for them to exclude themselves, not just from this legislation but others as well.

            Rand Paul has presented legislation with the intend to stop this sort of behavior.

            My crystal ball simply doesn’t reach that far , not privileged to enough “facts” to fully understand how and why congress believes that this is acceptable.

          • lakeside227

            I don’t need a crystal ball to know why they believe they don’t have to follow the laws they create for us – they believe they are above us. They see themselves as elite.

          • Deerinwater

            It’s easy enough to see it that way and I certainly couldn’t blame anyone if they do.

      • Matforce

        Deerinwater, I’ve enjoyed your thoughtful posts whenever I have come across them as well. Yours usually contain wisdom and a refrain that smooths the stone and calms the flame. Most of the hotheads who post on this and other forums like this prefer an echo chamber to the exchange of challenging, thought provoking debates of the merits of their ideas that require the substantiation of the rhetoric.

    • Merle Dickey

      Single payer are more government control. Some Countries that have this are now trying to figure out how to get out of it as it does not work!!

    • BTeboe

      You are making the huge assumption that the govt can run health care for millions. Not so. There are a lot of good ideas on how to make healthcare work and I’ve got three of my own.
      1) Doctors are the primary care givers. We desperately need more family practitioners. If govt want to throw money at medical services offer to pay the med school loans of those who would become doctors in under served areas. Govt could also help get them set up in practice. Contract would need to include an amount of time, say 8 years that the doctor would need to stay. Chances are they will remain because in 8 yrs they will become tied to the community.
      2) Have doctors and hospitals advertise their prices and allow insurance companies to sell across state lines, much like car insurance, to spread the risk. When you take your car to the mechanic, you usually like to get an estimate of what the work will cost. This should also be true in medicine. The $50 box of tissue would be a thing of the past.
      3) Doctors could come together as a group (various specialties) and instead of paying the middleman, patients pay the doctors for their care. If you”re going to have to pay an insurance premium you might as well give it to the guy who is going to do the work. When you or a family member needs medical care you go to your group. No co-pays or deductibles needed.
      The problem with our healthcare system now, is govt involvement. When somebody else picks up the tab (and there is a time and place for for that) it always seems to get more and more expensive.There’s an old saying that if you want more of something subsidize it, if you want less, tax it.
      I do not want the govt involved in my healthcare. And this Obamacare does nothing to provide health care, all it does is provide health insurance. Some people are finding that just because you have insurance, there’s no guarantee you will be able to find a doctor or hospital who will take it. I can just imagine the grief some people are finding now. There insurance premiums, copays and deductibles are all skyrocketing, and their choice of doctors and hospitals is disappearing. If you like to wait months to see a doctor, then Obamacare is for you – not me.

      • lottopol

        “..The USA is the last holdout with market-priced medical care not only because of any inherent conservative or free market ideology. Rather, as the wealthiest nation that ever existed we are the last ones who can afford it. Switzerland was one of the last advanced economies to abandon market-priced medical care. It is arguably a greater bastion of conservatism than the USA. Switzerland’s women were not granted the right to vote until 1971.

        During the debate as to whether Switzerland would abandon market-priced medical care there was considerable concern about how it would affect the major Swiss pharmaceutical giants such as Hoffmann-La Roche (RHHBY) and Novartis (NVS) which was Sandoz prior to the merger with Ciba in 1996. However, it was then realized that the Swiss pharmaceutical giants made much of their profits in the American market.

        The reason that no nation, including the wealthiest can allow markets to set the prices of medical care indefinitely is that demand for medical care is inelastic. Demand for a good or service is inelastic if a percentage increase in price results in a smaller percentage decrease in the quantity demanded. Basic economics tells us that sellers facing inelastic demand will continuously raise prices until prices reach the elastic portion of the demand curve. Consequently in every developed country in the world, all goods or services with inelastic demand have their prices regulated by government. Medical care in the USA being the only exception.

        Health care is one of the very few things for which the sellers face inelastic demand. The prices of all other goods and services facing inelastic demand in the USA are regulated by government. Retail electricity service providers face inelastic demand. Consequently, their prices are strictly controlled by all governments worldwide, including the USA.

        The inelasticity of retail electricity is obvious. If Consolidated Edison (ED) or any other electric utility were to triple retail service prices, people might be a little more careful about turning off the lights. Turning off their refrigerators? Watching less television? Not likely. Thus, tripling the price would result in only a small reduction in kilowatt-hours sold. Almost all other goods and services are price elastic. That includes non-medically necessary elective cosmetic and lasik surgery whose prices have actually relatively decreased over time. Medical care in the USA is the only instance in any developed country where any product facing inelastic demand is not substantially price regulated.

        Medical prices are controlled in various ways in the rest of the developed world. In Japan, the land of $100 melons and tiny $10,000 per month apartments, all medical care prices are listed in a book, thicker than the Manhattan telephone directory. The prices set in the book are usually less than a third of those in the USA. An MRI that costs $1,200 in the USA costs $88 in Japan. Japanese insurance companies are private as are most doctors. Japan spends less than a third per capita on medical care than America. However, the Japanese are greater consumers of medical care than Americans. They visit doctors and hospitals more often, have much more diagnostic tests such as MRIs. They also have better health outcomes as measured by all metrics such as life expectancy. They also wait less for treatment than Americans do as Japanese doctors work much longer hours for their much lower incomes.

        Japan’s explicit price controls are roughly emulated in other countries via the use monopsonistic systems. Monopsony, meaning “single buyer” is the flip side of monopoly. A monopolist sets prices above free market equilibrium. A monopsonist sets prices below free market equilibrium. It does not matter if there is an actual single payer or many buyers (or payers) whose prices are set by the government or by insurance companies in collusion with each other. More competition among sellers generally leads to lower prices. However, more competition among buyers leads to higher prices. In the health insurance industry the beneficial effects of more insurance companies competing for patients are far outweighed by the adverse effects of insurance companies competing for doctors and hospitals in their HMO plans. This was completely misunderstood during the recent debate on health care reform. With health care, more competition among insurance companies on balance results in higher prices.

        Focusing attention on the insurance companies, which are simply intermediaries between the doctors and the patients, was a tragic error. It would like trying to solve a problem of high energy prices by focusing on gasoline stations. Only if the government sets prices can health care prices be controlled. Controlling prices does not automatically result in longer waiting times. Japan and Switzerland generally have shorter waiting times to see doctors than does the USA. Additionally, if prices were controlled there would be no such thing as “in-network” or “out-of-network” since all doctors would accept all insurance plans…”

        • BTeboe

          I agree with some of your premise and I’ve got no problem with govt setting price controls, and not allowing them to drop or not take on people with pre-existing conditions. What I have a problem with is sharing my medical conditions with the govt. It’s none of their business. The insurance companies have been allowed to lobby and pretty much do what they want. As far as your examples go, Switzerland is a small country compared to the US and I don’t think you can apply the same concepts to us. We are a highly diverse country whereas the Swiss not so much. Again the Japanese are another culturally cohesive group and cannot be compared to the US. This ACA is nothing but a fiasco and I fear it will hurt many more people than it will help.

          • lottopol

            Under the present system anyone who applies
            for private health insurance must submit detailed medical information and consent to having any doctor you ever used providing all of you files to the
            insurance company. THEN all of your medical information is forwarded to ,MIB Group, Inc (formerly
            The Medical Information Bureau Inc.) which operates a database of medical information on individuals who have previously applied for health insurance,
            Any insurance company, and thus any employees of any insurance company which is a member of the MIB can access all of the medical records on anyone who has ever applied for health insurance. Under Obamacare medical underwriting which
            screens out people with preexisting conditions is not allowed so health insurance companies have no reason to ask medical questions and can no longer access you
            medical records.

            Switzerland is one of the most conservative
            pro-business, anti-tax countries in the world. It is illegal for a Swiss bank to provide information to a tax authority including the Swiss Government. Adult
            male homeowners in Switzerland are required by law to have fire arms in their homes and if a homeowner requests it, the Swiss government will give the homeowner a heavy machine gun. (one of the reasons Hitler did not invade Switzerland during World War II). Even Switzerland had to abandon market-priced healthcare.

            “..The USA is the last holdout with market-priced medical care not because of any inherent
            conservative or free market ideology. Rather, as the wealthiest nation that ever existed we are the last ones who can afford it. Switzerland was one of the last
            advanced economies to abandon market-priced medical care. It is arguably a greater bastion of conservatism than the USA. Switzerland’s women were not granted the right to vote until 1971…”

          • BTeboe

            You know I don’t care if they shrink wrap my info and shoot it to the moon, I don’t want the govt in it PERIOD I’ve got no recourse with the govt; I’ve got recourse with a private insurance company. It’s not their business. It’s not constitutionally mandated, and it reeks to kingdom come of Marxism.

        • lakeside227

          The government doesn’t have Constitutional authority to dictate prices and services to private companies.

          There’s a name for that…and it”s not freedom.

    • lakeside227

      Insurance companies should be forced to participate in an endeavor they believe is detrimental to their business? Do you also think doctors should be forced to accept medicare/medicaid patients?

      • Matforce

        Your perspective, one could assume, if they put themselves in your shoes, is from that of a possessor of a private plan?

        • lakeside227

          No, one would be wrong to assume that. I have no insurance and haven’t for several years. I pay for my medications and doctor appts. out of pocket. I am not young with no medical conditions either. Do I WANT insurance? Yes. Will I comply with an unconstitutional law? No. I will also not pay a tax for not having insurance either.

          I have this funny belief that the federal government can ONLY do what the Constitution gives it permission to do. The Constitution does NOT give the federal government permission to involve itself in healthcare/health insurance. Furthermore, that the federal government may only tax us to fund the execution of its enumerated powers and the other expenses mandated in the Constitution.

          However, if the people in my state want our state government to tax us to provide health insurance, I WOULD comply. The states DO have the authority to legislate in this area.

          I believe in this thing called freedom and that the government was created to SERVE US – it was NOT created to rule or control us.

        • lakeside227

          No, one would be wrong to assume that. I have no insurance and haven’t for several years. I pay for my medications and doctor appts. out of pocket. I am not young with no medical conditions either. Do I WANT insurance? Yes. Will I comply with an unconstitutional law? No. I will also not pay a tax for not having insurance either.

          I have this funny belief that the federal government can ONLY do what the Constitution gives it permission to do. The Constitution does NOT give the federal government permission to involve itself in healthcare/health insurance. Furthermore, that the federal government may only tax us to fund the execution of its enumerated powers and the other expenses mandated in the Constitution.

          However, if the people in my state want our state government to tax us to provide health insurance, I WOULD comply. The states DO have the authority to legislate in this area.

          I believe in this thing called freedom and that the government was created to SERVE US – it was NOT created to rule or control us.

          • Matforce

            On one hand I admire your integrity as you stick to your belief even when it hurts, on the other I abhor you disdain for the USA government’s role and functions that have been necessitated through a myriad of technological advances, domestic an international laws and policies, fiduciary practices, and other regulatory obligations. What business does the government have taxing our pay to fund our pensions (Social Security), Medical care (Medicare and Medicaid)? If you want to see a real alphabet soup of agencies and regulations look up!home

            If you’re a disgruntled Tea Partier with their cross hairs fixed on the US government’s largess, you’ll love this site; everything from new herbicide warnings to FDA inspections, to shipping fleet licenses, to ocean liners’ licensing, to NTP, OSHA, DOC, EPA, DOT/OST, FEMA, to shipping lanes in Guam!!! You name it-EVERYTHING UNDER THE SUN to uphold and sustain this utopian society we live in with ambulance chasing lawyers (McDonald’s hot coffee multi-million lawsuit) where in the court of law these blood suckers parse minutia to determine liability and our legal system grants outrageous settlements if fault can be found. Common sense has no quarter in it, but in litigation there’s money to be made; lots of it.

            This Utopian society exacts a price. The price for which we commoners and the small business owners in the USA have been picking up the tab; for over 30 years now, while large corporations, “multinationals,” and the financial sector have been to a large degree exempt. The fact that we, in the middle class can no longer afford this Utopia, in my opinion, is not cause to pick up arms against the upholder of this Utopia, tear it down and join 3rd world nations with street-side barkers selling tainted food, and if you get ripped off, you take matters into your own hands like the days of the old West.

            This fighting among ourselves is the cumulative result of divisive tactics to divert attention away from the real causes of our demise and that is the gutting of the middle class through policies that consolidate wealth and power to an elite who has raised deception to an art form to divide us.



          • lakeside227

            The federal government’s role is spelled out in the Constitution. It can not go beyond its enumerated powers. States control everything else.

            As Americans our loyalty is to the Constitution and our Country, not to government or political parties. I support the federal government’s execution of its enumerated powers and necessary taxes – nothing beyond that. Government is a necessary evil. “Unless restrained, all governments devolve to tyranny.”

            Federal alphabet agencies – most are unconstitutional because they are not part of the federal government’s enumerated powers. Some are necessary, but ALL federal agency regulations are unconstitutional because only Congress – the representatives of the People – can make law. Congress can’t transfer its legislative authority to another branch. SCOTUS has NO authority to give Congress permission to transfer any legislative power to the executive branch. SCOTUS rulings are NOT law, they are opinions. Federal agencies cannot create regulations, they can ONLY give recommendations to Congress for THEM to make the laws. Doing otherwise is a violation of the separation of powers.

            Disgruntled tea partier? Take up arms? What color is confused…cause you can color me that.

            Taxes? Flat tax – no deductions. Or, we stop taxing income which only punishes people for working hard and being successful and creates resentment. It CAUSES people to look for ways to avoid paying taxes. We each have the same tax burden.

            Federal ‘entitlement’ programs are unconstitutional, those objects belong to the states.

            Our government is corrupted, our representatives don’t serve us – they serve themselves, political parties, special interests, banks, wall street, big corporations.

            Want things to be better? Stop foreign aid; vastly reduce our military presence in other countries; bring our military home and put them on the border; stop all aid to illegal immigrants and deport them; divest the government of everything not connected to its enumerated powers; term limits; reform congressional pay; tie our elected officials MODEST retirement to how well they served their constituents; enact immediate consequences for elected officials who don’t obey their constituents; allow states to recall senators who aren’t representing states’ interests; allow the people to recall u.s. representatives; no more bailouts; no more subsidies; no lobbying; no PORK; all legislation is considered singly – no more grouping different legislation together; the FED; campaign finance reform – no donating to individual candidates or parties. All donations go to the fed or the state and one month before an election EVERY candidate and party gets the SAME amount to spend on campaigns. No more ‘buying’ a vote. There’s more, but I am tired.

          • Matforce

            Sorry, it’s been a long day, just got back. There is much in your post to analyze. First, who am I but a citizen who has been trained in my craft that I use to contribute to the common good for which I receive compensation. For me to extrapolate on the Constitution of the United States of America, an exercise that great minds have devoted their entire professional lives to interpreting, would be presumptuous at the very least.

            For what it’s worth, I agree with some of your views, and with some of your views, I disagree (big surprise!). The Constitution of the United States of America is a living document. It has been amended 27 times after painstaking debate and scholarly research.

            Our “founding fathers,” with the memories of the oppression of the British Empire fresh on their minds, formulated a government that advocated these basic foundational statutes: “To form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general Welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity…”

            There are some statutes that become a matter of interpretation as they are based on the premise that “We the People” agree with what is best for our beloved nation. Some of their clairvoyant precepts for our nation’s foundation have become fertile ground for debate:

            1. To Establish Justice
            2. To promote the general welfare.
            3. To Insure Domestic Tranquility

            It appears that we agree that the founding father’s vision for a more perfect union was based on a democratic agreement of its people of what is best for (welfare of) the whole of the United States of America, not just those who can influence our electorate with their money and therefore power. This theme has tremendous implications for #1 above; the establishment of JUSTICE (have you clicked on my previous post’s links? I have spent an inordinate amount of time looking into your challenging claims, many of which I agree). The issue of insuring domestic tranquility was stretched to the breaking point during the Civil War, and it now appears to be heading in that direction again. It is my belief, that the issue that most divides us this time around is obscured by the subterfuge of the disingenuous rhetoric (noise) that (sorry) emanates more prominently, from the right (Google “The Integration of Theory & Practice” by Weyrich and Heubeck for a study in the art of disingenuous propaganda).

            Your brief paragraph which reads, “Our government is corrupted, our representatives don’t serve us – they serve themselves, political parties, special interests, banks, wall street, big corporations,” is spot on, but you give it surprisingly little support or embellishment, more like an after-thought, considering the magnitude of it’s influence on their infringements on the spirit of our living Constitution.

          • lakeside227

            Pleasantly surprised by your comment. :)

            Great minds devoting their entire professional career to interpreting the Constitution. Why? It’s not that long of a document. The Founders left us a guide to understanding it.

            First, the Constitution is not a living document. The Founders gave us ONE way to change it, to allow for changing society and the needs of the People. Amending the Constitution is a serious undertaking and it can be very dangerous. After all, originally, the delegates met to amend the Articles of Confederacy and we ended up with a new Constitution and a different power structure – federation.

            The Constitution is the foundation of our government, it is the written rules by which the federal government operates. Just like ALL foundations, it must be firm, unmoving, unchanging, solid or the structure built on it won’t last. The Constitution can only be changed by the People ratifying amendments.

            The Constitution says and means today, exactly what it said and meant when it was written (excepting amendments). The words mean the same thing, the clauses mean the same thing, the enumerated powers are the same, the limitations on the federal government are the same. The Constitution is not ‘alive and changing.’

            “The powers delegated by the proposed Constitution to the federal government are few and defined. Those which are to remain in the State governments are numerous and indefinite. The former will be exercised
            principally on external objects, as war, peace, negotiation, and foreign commerce; with which last the power of taxation will, for the most part, be connected. The powers reserved to the several States will extend to all the objects which, in the ordinary course of affairs, concern the lives, liberties, and properties of the people.” Federalist 45

            “…the proposed government cannot be deemed a national one; since its jurisdiction extends to certain enumerated objects only, and leaves to the several States a residuary and inviolable sovereignity over all
            other objects….” Federalist 39

            “…the general [federal] government is not to be charged with the whole power of making and administering laws. Its jurisdiction is limited to certain enumerated objects…” Federalist 14

            Hamilton Federalist 16:
            “…because judges may be “embarked in a conspiracy with the legislature”, the People, who are “the natural guardians of the Constitution”, must be “enlightened enough to distinguish between a legal exercise and an illegal usurpation of authority.”

            Jefferson Kentucky Resolutions 1798:
            “Resolved, That the several States composing the United States of America, are not united on the principle of unlimited submission to their General Government; but that, by a compact under the style and title of a Constitution for the United States, and of amendments thereto, they constituted a General Government for special purposes,–delegated to that government certain definite powers, reserving, each State to itself, the residuary mass of right to their own self-government; and that whensoever the General Government assumes undelegated powers, its acts are unauthoritative, void, and of no force:

            that to this compact each State acceded as a State, and is an integral party, its co-States forming, as to itself, the other party: that the government created by this compact was not made the exclusive or final judge of the extent of the powers delegated to itself; since that would have made its discretion, and not the Constitution, the measure of its powers; but that, as in all other cases of compact among powers having no common judge, each party has an equal right to judge for itself, as well of infractions as of the mode and measure of redress.”

            The federal government wasn’t given permission to define its powers; to ‘interpret’ any part of the Constitution as meaning something different than it did the day it was signed. People who say it is ‘living’ are ones who want to do something the Constitution doesn’t allow.

            The federal government our Founders created was NEVER given permission to concern itself with the day to day lives of citizens. It was created for external purposes – to defend us; war; foreign relations; foreign commerce; roads; currency; the waters which form our borders; immigration; post office; weights and measures. These are all objects that affect the Country as a whole; areas that, as a union, need to be the same.

            STATES are the ones who control EVERYTHING else. States are the ones who are to change according to the changes in society, new needs of the People, creating new programs and needed agencies. States deal with social issues, they are outside the scope of the federal government’s powers.

          • Matforce

            Your point about federal govt.’s largess is well taken. Deconstructionists urging (demanding?) their representatives uphold their views about the nation’s “common good” appear to have grown impatient with the process they so staunchly advocate. The myopic focus on the issue that so consumes them seems to have caused them to turn a blind eye to what is, in my opinion, the cause of the current demise of the United States of America, which is right there under our noses.

  • lottopol

    …In the USA we have attempted to deal with the combination of inelastic demand and unregulated medical care prices in various ways. One method of keeping medical care expense as a percent of GDP to “only” double that of other developed countries was to have a significant portion of the population uninsured and denied medic care in some circumstances. Obamacare will reduce the number of uninsured and untreated. However admirable this may be from a humanitarian perspective, absent price controls, it will exacerbate the cost problem. The existence of large numbers of uninsured
    (conscripts in the war against rising medical costs) did moderate the growth in
    health care costs. Now the number of uninsured and untreated will be declining and uncontrolled prices will be rising.

    HMO’s were once thought to be a way of dealing with the
    inexorable price increases. The problem is that HMOs have to compete against each other for services of doctors and hospitals. As long as medical prices are set by market forces, the inelasticity of demand will force market prices inexorably higher. In a “mixed system” with both free-market and controlled health care prices like the USA, prices inexorably are driven upwards to the market
    level as long as demand is inelastic. Prices such as payments from Medicare
    that are “controlled” have to be increased continuously with legislation such
    as the “doctor-fix” to stay competitive with market prices. Medical prices can
    only be effectively controlled either by direct price controls as in Japan or
    with systems where everyone gets care for “free” from the government (Canada,
    UK, France). In those countries only the extremely wealthy can chose not to use the government paid health services that they have already paid for with their taxes and patronize the relatively small market-priced sector. In those
    countries, forgoing the government priced system is not an option for almost
    all doctors, as it is in the USA…”

    • Robert Messmer

      No one was denied medical care in an emergency.

      • lottopol

        Many unisured people did not have lumps that turned out to be tumors examined before it was too late. Emergency roooms do not do that.

        The reason you are not allowed to by cars without any safety features, no seat belts, no airbags, no horn, no brake lights etc. is the same reason you can not buy a cheap health insurance policy with very small lifetime caps. If you crash your car without the seatbelts and run-up hundreds of thousands of dollars in medical bills and have a health insurance policy with a $10,000 lifetime cap the rest of us have to make up the difference.

        “..The price inelasticity of health care is also a consequence of the success of the medical science. Two hundred years ago, consultation with a physician did not significantly alter the outcomes of most medical conditions. Doctors could do very little for patients prior to 1800. Since then, the medical science has made tremendous progress. As treatments became more effective, people became willing to pay increasingly more for health care. It is quite logical that as doctors could do more and more to improve people’s lives; people would be willing to pay more for their services.

        From a humanitarian perspective this medical progress is great. However, in any unregulated market, the price of a product facing inelastic demand will eventually increase until the price reaches the elastic portion of the demand curve. For the USA, that would mean spending much more than 50% of GDP on health care. Most of those not engaged in the health care industry would see their standard of living plummet. This is politically unacceptable. Thus, well before the prices of health care reach that level the USA will join the rest of the developed world and control medical prices…”

    • Quester55

      You’ll find one in every crowed, A Voice Vibrating off the walls of Obama’s Rectum !

      Ever hear the Screams of Rats as they desert a Sinking Ship?
      Obama’s Dead in the Water & is surrounded by the Wolf Pack, Yet he Continues to Dig His Grave Even more Deeper, Seeking his Home away from home, No Doubt!

  • dan

    Insurance is the PROBLEM…not the solution…
    and NOW we have an Insurance Salesman in Chief of the United States..

    • Quester55

      True & yet all he’s selling is, ” SNAKE OIL “, for those to Dumb to think for themselves !

  • ChavesisGONE

    Jay Carney and Baghdad Bob went to the same correspondence school

  • Vazir_Mukhtar

    I’m surprised that Mr Carney hasn’t defended President Obama by saying that when the president promised (?) that no one would lose her/his insurance, terms for the implementation of the PCACA had yet to be written. Mr Obama, thus, was expressing his wish? hope? understanding? of how the law would be carried out. Foolish man! But then, he’d served only one term in the Senate. Could we expect him to know how laws passed by Congress are implemented when the rules and regs are written by bureaucrats? Of course we could. He’s not only the commander-in-chief, he’s the chief executive officer, after all.

  • Vazir_Mukhtar

    How I wish that after Obamacare has been implemented for a couple of years (assuming it is), we would be given an accurate report of how much the taxpayers wound up subsidizing it each year and how many young, healthy people would have been needed to make Obamacare pay for itself.

    Yes, I know I should dream on.

    • Quester55

      How Else did you expect Barry to Pay Back those 16Trillion that he Stole from the American’s Taxes ?
      Many Democrats, Both Black & Mexican, Are Screaming for His Blood!
      And this is just the Beginning, Soon it’ll become MUCH Worse!
      Wait until your NEW Insurance, DEMANDS that YOU Take the FLU SHOT that has already Killed hundreds around the world! (So much for Free Will)

      • Vigilant

        Hey, Dum-Dum, looks like your math skills are as bad as your English skills.

        (1) Obama “stole” $16 trillion? Now you’re going to blame him for the $10.7 trillion national debt that existed before he took office? Your math sucks.

        (2) Taxes haven’t even been levied yet to defray the national debt, so it’s rather stupid of you to claim the taxes have already been stolen. Your grasp of macroeconomics sucks.

        (3) Your spelling, capitalization and general lack of logic sucks as well.

        Word to the wise: if you’re going to debate as a Conservative, get your act together first. You might want to take a clue from my postings.

        • Quester55

          To bad you don’t take Your own Advice, else you’d have known that Mr. Bush left office with a NATIONAL DEBT of 4.7 Trillion, For Obama to handle.
          And handle it, Is just what your FUHRER Did, He Handled it to such an extent that in the last 5 years, it has grown from,” 4.7 Trillion to well over 16.8 Trillion at last Count & still growing!
          Getting your Facts correct seems to be just one of your problems, Vigilant, Yet it’s understandable, It must be your lack of O2 that keeps your Brain in a Fog of OBAMA Produced Propaganda!
          As For my Spelling & use of Caps, Live with it or Don’t Read it, However it’s FOOLISH on your part to Read it & Then Complain about what you’ve just read.

          As for your Reviews, We all need some COMIC RELIEF You LIBERALS SUPPLY, otherwise, life would be boring indeed!

          • Vigilant

            Bluster55 says, “Getting your Facts correct seems to be just one of your problems, Vigilant.”

            HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA!

            Bush left over $10 trillion in national debt. Now that’s as incontrovertible a fact as can be uttered. How many sources would you like me to provide for that FACT…10…15…20?

            Provide just ONE source for your false figure and I’ll figuratively kiss your a$$ right here, in front of God and everybody. What a mental midget.

            You’ve been made a fool of again. You remind me of he guy who keeps hitting himself in the head with a hammer and when asked why he says “because it feels so good when I stop.”

      • Vazir_Mukhtar

        I suspect the Democrats who are screaming for Mr Obama’s blood will vote for the Democratic nominee for president in 2016, whoever that may be. The Republicans are unlikely to get it together by then and nominate a sensible candidate. Those supporting the Tea Party should remember the Alice books and switch to coffee.

  • Quester55

    One little, Two little,Three little liar’s

    Four little, Five little, Six little liar’s
    Seven little,Eight little,Nine Little Liar’s,
    And Obama’s the Biggest one of All !
    Keeping up with the times & Giving New Words for old Songs.

    Just wait until the Kids start singing this at School!

  • Quester55

    The only Fare way to settle this matter, would to FREEZE PRICES on ALL HEALTHCARE Plans until This Obamacare Death Plan is Removed or Forced on us like all of Obama’s laws have been!
    I just wonder if All of those Law Enforcement Robots are EXEMPT as well as the Government, Or are they Just too Stupid to See the Suffering their own Family’s are going through??

    • Vigilant

      “The only Fare [sic] way to settle this matter, would [be] to FREEZE PRICES on ALL HEALTHCARE Plans…”

      Great idea if you’re a communist.

      What a “maroon.”

      • Bob666

        Yo Vigilant,
        That brings back the days of Nixon with phase one -phase three which included price controls on consumer goods.

        We know how that worked out……….

        That was the beginning of a new economic concept (at that time) called Stagflation.

        • Vigilant

          Bob, Nixon was precisely who I had in mind when I made that comment. Quester55 believes himself to be a Conservative but has no idea of conservative philosophy.

          • Bob666

            Yes Vigilant,
            The problem here is; Many on this board have not seen history unfold like guys our age (I’m 72 this month-not sure how old you are).

            The Nixon approach was 100% contrary to the free market concept and failed on so many levels.

            As far as Obama Care goes, I am fine to see it implemented. If it fails, the democrats own it and suffer the political consequences. If it is successful (maybe), they get the reward.

            What ever happens will happen, if Obama Care fails, allow the free market change it and change will take place.

          • Vigilant

            I’ll be 67 a week from today.

          • Quester55

            Big words coming from a COMMUNIST!!

          • Bob666

            Vigilant a Communist? Now that is just plain funny!

          • Vigilant

            Thanks, Bob. Old Quester55 needs to change his name to “Fluster55” or perhaps “Bluster55.” Can’t tell if the 55 stands for year of birth or IQ, perhaps both.

          • Bob666

            No problem Vigilant,
            Like me, I’m sure that you have faults, but being a communist is not one of them. I’m just not sure how anyone could draw such a conclusion?

          • Vigilant

            Indeed, I have a host of faults. But the problem with Bluster55 is that, like so many others, once he’s proven wrong by someone else, he lashes out with ad hominems at such a scattergun rate that he loses all sense of sanity and logic in the process.

            I have always been a stickler for facts, and have even found myself retreating in some areas, but what you may find different about me is that I’ll attack the left and right with equal intensity if I find that facts have been misrepresented.

            I know you and I find agreement on some subjects and disagree on others, but we’ve been able to maintain a level, civilized relationship.

            For Quester that’s impossible…and he claims to be a Conservative! Correcting his errors of both fact and philosophy merely brought out his true nature.

          • Bob666

            “I know you and I find agreement on some subjects and disagree on others, but we’ve been able to maintain a level, civilized relationship”.

            This is true & it is sad that people on both sides can’t seem to disagree with the same sense of civility.

      • Quester55

        Sorry DOG, I forgot that your so damn perfect that you never make a Mistake!

        Must be lonely, on top of that EGO of yours that you feel you have the right to put others down!
        But what can anyone expect from a Feeder from Obama’s crotch!

        By the way, FREEZING PRICES on a TEMPORALLY bases, has nothing to do with COMMUNISM, But you already knew that, You Little B@$^&#@@!!@

        • Vigilant

          My, my, little Quester’s feelings have been bruised.

          Yes indeed, I do make mistakes, but certainly not in arguing with you. As for putting others down, better get your short term memory checked. All those “stupid” “Law Enforcement Robots” you dissed would have something to say about that.