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Don’t Believe This Liberal Lie

July 30, 2010 by  

Don’t Believe This Liberal Lie

Well, that resolution didn’t last long.

Last week I wrote in this space that it was a waste of time to argue with liberals and I wasn’t going to do it anymore. But three comments from readers have forced me to reevaluate that position.

The first came from a reader who chastised me for giving up on anyone.

“Remember Saul of Tarsus,” he told me. “Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you.”

The Lord sets an awfully high bar here, doesn’t He? I confess; I’m more likely to curse an enemy than pray for him. But it’s good to be reminded of the higher road.

The second constructive criticism came from an old friend who didn’t like my use of the word “liberal” to describe our opponents on the left. “We are the true liberals,” he told me, referring to the traditional meaning of the word. “We shouldn’t let them steal this noble concept from us. Please join me in taking it back.”

That’s easy to say, but not so easy to do. If you want to be clearly understood, it’s probably better to use words as they are understood today, not what they meant a century or two ago. N’est-ce pas? (Yes, I agree; using foreign words or phrases is another phony affectation of pretentious intellectuals. I won’t do it again.)

Where was I? Oh yes, readers who disagree with me. If you scroll down to the end of my columns and read the comments section below, you’ll see some doozies. Don’t do it right away; wait until the middle of the following week, when they’ve had a chance to respond to each other. As you’ll soon see, some of them really enjoy hurling a good insult at an opponent… and are mighty good at it.

It wasn’t an insult that got me riled up this week, however, but a blatant falsehood delivered as though it were a carved-in-stone truth.

“This is why there is a separation of church and state in the constitution,” someone calling himself J. M. proclaimed. “To keep religion out of politics.” Then he added, “Some folks just don’t get it. Next thing you know, the Republicans will bring back the Inquisition.”

I confess that I cleaned up his spelling, punctuation and grammar a bit. I didn’t want you to be distracted by his lack of literacy. Instead, I wanted to focus on the Big Lie of his original comment.

There is absolutely nothing in the United States Constitution that requires—or even justifies—the so-called separation of church and state.

I’ll go even further. Our Founding Fathers never wanted to see any such thing. And they would be appalled to see how the courts in this country have deliberately twisted, distorted and abused the wonderful document they created to strip all vestiges of religious belief from our public life.

Allowing the left to get away with this is one of the greatest tragedies that’s taken place in my lifetime. In case any of you reading this have also swallowed the liberal lie about “separation of church and state,” bear with me for a few moments while we cover some very important (but often suppressed) history.

What The Constitution Actually Says
What is the most important sentence in the U.S. Constitution?

I would submit that it’s the very first one. Do you remember how this marvelous document starts? Our Founding Fathers set the tone for everything they believed, and everything that would follow, in Article I, Section 1, sentence one. It reads, “All legislative powers herein granted are vested in Congress….”

A friend of mine who has lectured widely on the Constitution likes to stop at this point and ask: “Are there any math students present? Okay, maybe you can help me out. If ‘all’ lawmaking power resides in Congress, how much is in the Supreme Court? Right, none! How about the Executive Branch? Right, none again. Thanks for your help.”

There’s a very important principle here—one that has been deliberately obfuscated over the past 50 years. A Supreme Court decision isn’t supposed to be “the law of the land.” The Court has no Constitutional right to make law. All it is supposed to do is to decide “the law of the case.” Its decision should be binding on the plaintiff and the defendant and no one else.

Instead, for most of my lifetime, layer upon layer of additional government has been sanctioned and even initiated by the black-robed justices of the U.S. Supreme Court. The men and women who took an oath swearing to uphold the Constitution—like every member of Congress—regularly and repeatedly violate that pledge. They knowingly and deliberately, with malice aforethought, ignore the very first sentence of the document they promised to uphold.

And let me digress for a moment to note that the very same principle applies to the Executive Branch. What lawmaking powers does the Constitution bestow on the President and all of the cabinets, agencies and commissions he oversees? Again, the answer is none. Yet we get Executive Orders, Presidential decrees and all sorts of new rules and regulations, all having the force of law. This is another serious violation of the Constitution’s first sentence.

With that as background, let’s turn to the First Amendment (the one used to justify all of the arguments for “the separation of church and state”) and see what it actually says. Here is how it begins:

“Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof…”

That seems pretty clear, doesn’t it? “Congress shall make no law,” either promoting a religion or prohibiting one.

According to the Constitution, what are the states allowed to do when it comes to religion (or just about anything else)? The answer is, pretty much whatever they want.

Could a state require that the Ten Commandments be posted in every courthouse? Sure it could.

Could a city or county government install a crèche on its lawn every Christmas? Absolutely.

Could a governor encourage the citizens of his state to call on the Almighty to alleviate drought or do other good works? Without a doubt.

The framers of our Constitution expected the citizens of each state to decide for themselves how state and local affairs would be conducted. Would every state decide the same thing? Absolutely not. Our Founding Fathers expected differences to emerge between states. Some would be minor, some major. If one state passed laws you felt were onerous, you could vote to change them—or move to another state.

The idea that every law and every rule in every state should be exactly the same as the ones in every other state would strike our Founding Fathers as the height of absurdity. They believed that differences were good; that competition would reward good policy and punish bad.

The system worked pretty well for more than 150 years. It could work even better today, thanks to the vastly improved flow of information and transportation. If we choose we can learn a lot about policies and procedures in other states. And if we like what we learn we can get there a lot easier than our forefathers did. Or, like the flood of affluent folks who have been fleeing California, head for a state that doesn’t try to tax you to death.

What will it take to restore Constitutional government to this country? The short answer is, electing members of the House and Senate who will settle for nothing less. That presupposes, of course, getting candidates who actually understand what constitutional government is all about. Does yours?

We can’t expect total victory in one election or, frankly, even one decade. It took a cabal of socialist schemers more than 150 years to bring us to this point. I hope it won’t take that long win back all of our freedoms. But victory won’t come quickly. Or easily.

You’ve heard the expression; the longest journey begins with a single step. Let’s make sure that this November we take one step closer to the sort of system we used to have. The one that made us the envy of the world—when we were the freest, most productive and most prosperous nation on earth. I still believe we can do it.

Until next time, keep some powder dry.

—Chip Wood

Chip Wood

is the geopolitical editor of PersonalLiberty.com. He is the founder of Soundview Publications, in Atlanta, where he was also the host of an award-winning radio talk show for many years. He was the publisher of several bestselling books, including Crisis Investing by Doug Casey, None Dare Call It Conspiracy by Gary Allen and Larry Abraham and The War on Gold by Anthony Sutton. Chip is well known on the investment conference circuit where he has served as Master of Ceremonies for FreedomFest, The New Orleans Investment Conference, Sovereign Society, and The Atlanta Investment Conference.

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  • http://?? Joe H.

    Very good statement of FACT, Chip!!!! Do us a favor and forget your resolution to not argue with the liberals. Give em’ hell, Chip!!!!

    • http://donthaveone Beberoni

      Here here, give em hell Chip. I second that nomination.

      • http://naver samurai

        I’ll support what you said Chip. The liberals of today have been trying to destroy the Constitution and this country for a long time now. It’s time that we, along with yourself, stand up against these enemies of freedom and take this country back. They ar so affraid of christianity that it is because they know where they are going (Hades) and are trying to take others with them. FOR GOD AND COUNTRY! It may be hard at times, but don’t give up the good fight! Write me at my e-mail if you have a chance. We can bounce ideas off of each other.

    • Pathfinder

      Right on !! Chip, it is good to know that there are some people who actually understand the first amendment. In addition; it seems to me that the “wall of seperation” crowd have been ignoring the portion of the first amendment which reads “… ,or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; …”. Based on a twisted interpretation of the first amendment; the court has, indeed, been prohibiting the free exercise of religion. Your thoughts and/or comments on this aspect would be most appreciated.

      • American Citizen

        I think he stated his opinions in the article on this.

        • WakeupUS

          Nope! Read your Constitution. Read books that are in the fore father’s own words. This is a fact. So sad that many have been brainwashed by our education system to think that “separation of church and state” appears in the Constitution. I am an educator and always had to correct children and some ignorant adults about this misconception.

          • http://www.kjnf.net jimmimax

            Good for you, I wish more teachers were like you, there is also a verse in the North west ordinance that goes, The superintendent of schols shall bring up our children in god religion and prayer, so much for the implied intent as ruled by Judge Blackman in the 1947 court case to remove prayer from school sounds like the congress actual intent trumps implied intent, now if some super sharp lawyer would pursue that course we could bring America back to Christianity and god! Keep up the good work teach!

          • http://naver samurai

            Hoooraaah! FOR GOD AND COUNTRY!

          • HHH

            Well, you folks continue to beat the “belief” drums, and all the fantasy that goes with it…. this is a secular government with secular laws and nothing in print regarding the laws of this country or the laws of the states, is in “biblical text”……. live with it!!! And that includes you Chip!!!

          • http://naver samurai

            HHH, what does that stand for? Being stupid? This country was founded by christian founding fathers. They believed in nature and nature’s GOD! What part of this don’t you understand? Don’t forget, you moron, that the SCOTUS ruled in 1889 that this country was a christian nation, so you get over it and get back to a church. Atheist moron!

        • Pathfinder

          While Chip gave an excellent article and expressed his opinion quite well. I do not think he touched upon the specific point of prohibiting the free exercise of religion. I would love to hear his input on this specific aspect of the topic.

          • Jana

            Actually the consitution is protecting the church from the Government, not the Government from the Church.

      • DaveH

        I am Atheist and I agree with you Pathfinder. The Liberals are stepping all over the Constitution with their “Separation of Church and State” myth.

        • SeaDragon

          Dave, I’m sorry you do not believe in God, HOWEVER, in America you are supposed to have the right to your beliefs. I spent time in the Army during the Viet Nam war to support this. Believe as you wish, just don’t try to deny me my right to believe as I wish. If there is public prayer that you don’t like, don’t listen, but also don’t try to stop it. I’m Christian, but if I hear a Muslim prayer I will let them pray, I just think of something else. If you ask about my religion I will tell you what I believe, if you don’t I will not get in your face and demand that you listen. Give me the same courtesy.

          • DaveH

            Obviously, you have not read my comments very well, SeaDragon. I have never tried to force my religious beliefs (or lack of) on others. Please do the same for me.

          • JD

            Denniso, you are as stupid as a jackass and as igorant as a fool. You are what is wrong with the thinking of many in this country. YOU are the problem. Go get’em Chip and don’t ever give up or give in!

          • Bluerider

            Amen, to that!

          • http://donthaveone Beberoni

            Evidently you didnt read DaveH post very well. He was saying that the liberals have prostituted the Constitution by doing their evil little deeds. He agree’s that they have made up this myth about separation of church and state. Dave and I are at different ends of the spectrum, with him as an atheist and I as a Christian, but Dave has always been respectful of others rights, and only has fought dirty on here defending himself against countless liberal attacks, where for some reason, they dont read his posts correctly either, and constantly accuse him of saying things he never said, just as you seem to be doing for some odd reason. I find DaveH to be very articulate and professional in his deliverance of the facts he writes about in his posts, and he is one of the smartest guys Ive seen post in here. I wish he knew Jesus also, and maybe someday it will happen, but thats not my call. Thats between him and God. I know who he is, and Dave knows who I am, and we both believe in an America that we have gotten away from because of this path of liberalism that is sucking us down the drain. But re-read his post, and you might come up with a different point of view.

          • kate8

            Beberoni, I was going to post similar comments, but you said it so well that I simply will say that I agree with you.

          • Travis

            My Dad was in the army during Nam. God bless you for your service. & thank you.

          • Azri

            ok, you boys need to step back. I’m Pagan. i don’t care WHAT anyone else’s religion entails as long as no children or animals are hurt. i ignore most religious stuff that isn’t mine. further i am a minister for my religion, can even marry folks :D i do think though that certain fringe groups of various religions are pretty sick an twisted. take sharia law for example? that’s some HARSH stuff right there!
            Dave sounded reasonable, but sea dragon was it? whatever saw the word ATHIEST and wigged out. why do people gotta get stupid about this?
            if people educated themselves, they’d find that for the most part, religions are the same at their core. once you get past all the ego of church leaders/members and all the gobbledygook, it comes down to: 1. don’t steal. 2. treat each other decent, 3. use common sense and love everyday 4. be aware that the consequences of your choices bleed over to others. why is that so hard?
            calm down, take a breath and stop panicking and jumping on folks. that’s what “THEY” want. divide and conquer ringing any bells ?

            the article was interesting & sad to, to see how far the constitution has been twisted.

          • http://?? Joe H.

            Seadragon,
            I am a Christian and I too fought in RVN. I have been a poster on here since November last year and have read about all of DaveHs posts and not once have I ever seen him try to push his beliefs on ANYONE! He is one of the more reasonable posters here and a general good dude!

          • GregS

            Amen, Berberoni, Joe H, and kate8! DaveH has ALWAYS been spot-on with all the contributions he’s made to this Forum, and he has NEVER imposed his personal beliefs on anyone. I always enjoy reading his comments.

          • Colleen Smith

            DaveH is right on. He exercises his right to freely express his religious beliefs and does so with the correct assumption that it is not against any law and no laws are to be made to change that. Pay attention. He reminds me of S.E. Cupp. They have a brain and they are using it. I believe in God but do not attempt to force others to believe what I would like them to believe. It is called Free Will. It comes from the Judeo Christian bible and it will remain Free Will w/ or w/o those who believe otherwise. I like to say, “It is one’s God given right to be an atheist.”

          • DaveH

            Thank you all for your kind words.

          • Jana

            I agree with all of the above who are speaking out for DaveH. He is one decent man and we appreciate his great attitude and his wisdom.

          • Vicki

            I know that English can be a little fuzzy even for native born speakers. HOWEVER I did not get the impression that SeaDragon was accusing DaveH of doing those things. SeaDragon seemed to be saying that he/she agrees with DaveH’s creator given right to believe as he wishes and then going on to point out that SeaDragon does believe in God and how he/she approaches the different cases.

            SeaDragon used the pronoun “you” rather then “one” because he/she was talking directly to Dave.

            Btw I do agree with others about Dave being an excellent example of good constitutional/conservative values.

          • http://www.realcolorwheel.com/ DonJ

            I USED to think like that. But now that I know their Koran says to kill me for not believing in their religion I would just as soon have them shot before they shoot at me. Deport them all, and deport the illegals that are here too. There is no reason I shouldn’t feel safe in my country. Mr. Obama, you don’t want to know what I think should be done to you.

        • Bababa’s mom

          thanks for your thoughts. God bless you!

          • Denniso

            What Chip Wood wants,apparently, is for any state to be able to go back to the pre 1950′s,which was the beginning of the actual end of slavery. When Black Americans and white supporters fought to achieve equal rights and equal access to schools and public facilities. The fact that the constitution doesn’t directly address the terrible racism of our past is not surprising but does show the flaws in the ‘founders’ and the original document…many of the founders were slave owners and Blacks,like women,were ignored in the writing and thinking of the time.

            At the very least,the establishment clause in the constitution doesn’t allow for any federal money to be connected w/ any religious
            enterprise in any state…most of our public life has federal money involved,like it or not…schools,parks,hospitals,roads,city and state budgets…Chip thinks it would be fine if we wound up w/ some Taliban-like states,women stoned for adultery,hands chopped off for theft. What a pleasant country that would be and could be if states could pass laws based upon religious ‘values’ of their particular majority. Sure,go back to the 50′s when it was law that most women couldn’t divorce abusive husbands or would lose their kids if they did leave. Yep, the 50′s were a grand old time.

            Why am I using the 50′s as what Chip would prefer for the country? Well, he said, the country did well for more than 150 yrs until things fell apart…1890 or so + 155 = 1945…the beginning of the end of the ‘good’ times in Chip’s warped estimation.

          • Granny Mae

            Hey Denniso,

            How the cat hair did you make the jump from religon to slavery and womens rights. You have a chip on your shoulder the size of a house ! It’s time to sit up, look up and stand up and join the rest of the world before you are left standing alone !

          • del

            You need to go study American History and the Constitution. If separation of church and state had been intened, then why did the government provide funding to the missionaries to teach Christianity to the Indians? Hummm……I wonder?

          • http://donthaveone Beberoni

            denniso, you constantly pull the race card out. Whats up with that. You just inject it in there where it has no place. But since you brought it up, Id like to go back to where we are all equal, and it isnt allowed for Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton and others to go on live TV and live radio and call me a honky and a cracker and get away with it, because we have to appease them because of their skin color. This is the source of racism today, from the Al Sharptons and Jesse Jacksons and Rev. Wrights of the world. That is 95 percent of its source. That and people like you, that keep bringing the past up because you live with the victim mind set. Rise above it, grow up, and move on. A black man is president. That means a black man can do anything in this world. Sorry, I hate to inform you pal, but there are no more racial excuses for failing. If Barack Obama did it, why cant anyone else? Because they refuse to rise to the occasion, and find it is easier to play the victim. Well its old, its worn out, and it no longer applies. So just stop it. Its silly.

          • http://jorind@gmail.com Zackery

            Perhaps I was mis-taught in math class but, I thought the sum of 1890 + and 155 equaled 2145; not 1945. Where did you attend school?
            Zack

          • kate8

            Denniso, that is one of the most moronic posts I’ve seen.

            But then, we must remember that you are a product of the progressive’s revision of history.

          • Kim

            Well Denniso, and to all who post here, every American has the right to their opinion, but if you leftwingers hate America so much and don’t like the way the majority of American’s are then you all can leave and go to whatever country that you put in front of American. I will also tell you that I don’t like the name calling from either side and sure don’t care for the far rightwing bunch much either. I do9n’t believe in telling others how to live, which is coming from the far right and the far left. We are supposed to be equal under the law, but that does not mean that we will be free from racism from any race, I see it from all sides, and there is only one thing that will stop it and that is love for all from all. It means that we all have to tolerate things that we do not like. If all you people would respond in kindness, and explain why each of you feel the way do, you might be able to work out some of the bad things that go on in this country. All of this hate does nothing, it is not good for anything and never solves any problems, just make things worse. That is why Dr. King was so successful, he loved instead of hated, even though he was hated by so many. As for Al and Jessie, they don’t show love, they are always looking for anything to jump on.
            The way we are headed now sure looks like the way other countries went when they ended up giving up their rights to government, U.S.S.R., GERMANY, CHINA,ECT… I for one can’t see why people want to be like these countries, it just don’t make sense! There are so many things that need to settled, but all of your attitudes towards each other stink

          • Kinetic1

            Del,
            Several writings by our founders, including the least religious among them spoke of the power of religion in upholding the social order. Point in case, the pacifist and pro-Christian party fearing an uprising among the Delaware Indians delivered to General Washington a letter asking for help. Part 5 of the letter read

            ” That the said Delaware Nation have established a Town where numbers of them have embraced Christianity … listen to the Gospel of Jesus Christ, which has been a means of introducing considerable order, Regularity and love of Peace into the Minds of the whole Nation—the[y] therefore hope Congress will countenance & promote the Mission …”

            Washington replied,
            “My ears hear with pleasure the other matters you mention. Congress will be glad to hear them too. You do well to wish to learn our arts and ways of life, and above all, the religion of Jesus Christ. These will make you a greater and happier people than you are. Congress will do every thing they can to assist you in this wise intention; and to tie the knot of friendship and union so fast, that nothing shall ever be able to loose it.” [Note: This letter or portions have been misquoted and presented as "Speech to the Delaware Indian Chiefs"]

            These words are often used as “proof” of Washington’s Christianity, though in context it appears that the intention of this letter was to promote religion as a way to prevent conflict and not a statement of belief. If this tactic was used to effect in one tribe, it is fair to assume it was used in many. Mind you, I am not suggesting that there were no Christians in our government who felt that missionary work was a necessary part of their religion, only that it is presumptuous to assume that government support of these missionaries was a sign of our nations strict adherence to, or promotion of Christianity.

          • Kinetic1

            Zackery,
            Yes, I was amused by the math as well, but clearly it is just a typo.
            As to Denniso’s argument, it is extreme, but is it so wrong? The religion clause was an attempt to dissuade the fears of those who saw the trouble caused by sect domination in the states. Both in the original colonies and latter in the states, the “majority” religion dominated the government and no sect wanted to be the wrong one if the Federal Government chose an official religion. As Chip suggested, many people during those times would choose, or were sometimes forced to leave their home state due to religious intolerance from the state. This, of course declined over the years, but if we had not declared it improper, if not illegal for government to espouse one form of religion over another, we might still suffer from such persecution. I say might, but there are signs that such persecution is returning.

            Many politicians, both state and federal are fanning the flames with regard to Islam. Newt Gengrich has proposed a law against Sharia:
            “And one of the things I’m going to suggest today is a federal law which says that no court in the United States under any circumstances is allowed to consider Sharia as a replacement for American law. Period.”

            Since our Constitution restricts such action, there is hardly any need, nor is there any threat, except in… Oklahoma? Yes, the legislator of Oklahoma is ready to amend their constitution to prevent Sharia law!

            “I see this in the future somewhere in America,” Duncan, who chairs the state House Judiciary Committee, told ABC News. “It’s not an imminent threat in Oklahoma yet, but it’s a storm on the horizon in other states.”

            Under freedom of religion, a Muslim family may choose to practice those parts of Sharia that do not violate our law, but it is unimaginable that our courts would allow violence and murder. Still. if you Google Sharia law in America you will be inundated by claims that it is just around the bend. Most of this comes from the assertions of New York attorney Steven Stein who claimed that President Obama’s choice for legal adviser for the State Department, Harold Koh supported the idea of adapting portions of Sharia. False quotes are everywhere following Mr. Stein’s assertions, regardless of the fact that dozens of witnesses say that Mr. Koh never replied as Mr. Stein reported.

            Attacks against Islam are just one of the many signs that intolerance is again growing in America, and some states are worse than others. So is it wrong to fear a return to “the old days?” Washington said:

            “As mankind becomes more liberal, they will be more apt to allow, that all those who conduct themselves as worthy members of the community are equally entitled to the protection of civil government. I hope ever to see America among the foremost nations in examples of justice and liberality.”

            Does this sound like a man who would say, as Newt did that “There should be no mosque near Ground Zero in New York so long as there are no churches or synagogues in Saudi Arabia.”? Should we allow the religious views of foreign governments to negatively effect our decisions? Newt sounds like a petulant child yelling “no fair, no fair!” Based on his words, if he were alive today do you think Washington would have supported laws against Islam? How about homosexuals?

          • Denniso

            Obviously,I meant 1790 plus 155 equals 1945…even the rightwingers should have been able to figure I made a typing error. Roughly just after the country got going plus Chip Wood’s ‘more than 150 yrs’ of the country doing well…that puts us at the beginning of the civil rights era. Blacks were still virtually enslaved until that time by all they were excluded from in our society. Got it,rightwingers?

          • Denniso

            Kim….if you understood the constitution you would know that a fundamental purpose of it is to protect the rights of all minorities,since it is always possible to have a majority dictatorship that has the power to abuse the minority who are usually powerless.

            Your solution to having debate that goes against the majority is to suggest that any minority leave the country…a typical rightwing mantra,going back to Reagan’s day,’America love it or leave it’. It’s absurd and mindless,since all of us are citizens and have equal right to live here and try to improve our country. Can you follow that?

          • Denniso

            Sorry Beb and Kate 8, if you couldn’t follow what I wrote. My point is that Chip Wood seems to think that everything was hunky dory until about the 1950′s and I’m saying that’s only true if you were a white male w/ money…for minorities,many women, and the poor,things were not so great,as they were not included in the best aspects of what America is supposed to stand for. Wood’s remark is typical of prosperous white males who for the most part benefited more than others,and now resent their lessening control on the gov’t and society.

            Blacks,women,hispanics,asians,gays began making progress in the 50′s
            and that means that the previously dominant structure has weakened a bit and those people don’t like it. Not surprising,since we all want to control our lives and place in society and resent it when we can’t.

          • usmadgirl

            Zachery,

            If you’re going to correct people, please correct them correctly. 1890 + 155 is 2045, not 2145. Where did YOU go to school?

          • usmadgirl

            Zackery,

            Just to add a note, I was NOT defending “Dumbisso”! Just wanted to let you know that you needed to be CERTAIN of your correction before you made a statement so you don’t appear as to be as “misinformed” & unable to add as he is!

          • http://naver samurai

            If I remember right duhniso, women’s lives and rights were furthered and made better with the passage of the 19th Amendment in 1920 and the black (both free and former slave) with the 13th, 14th, and 15th Amendments of the 1860′s. Please get your history timeline straight!

        • Pathfinder

          Thanks Dave. We may be opposites on our belief in God. But, just as I would not dream of trying to force you to attend a church service; I do not think you would have me arrested for praying on the steps of the SCOTUS building.

          • DaveH

            In my country, you can pray anywhere you want.

      • http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/03/29/60minutes/main2625305.shtml cemott3rd

        Since state and local governments all receive Federal funds through the mandate of the US Congress they are therefore bound to not utilize these funds (or even a miniscule portion of them indirectly)to promote or “recognize an establishment of religion” meaning local governments accepting these funds (and they all do) cannot “require that the (abridged version of the) Ten Commandments be posted in every courthouse” nor “could a city or county government install a crèche on its lawn every Christmas”. Sorry but absolutely NOT Chip!

        Personally as an devout agnostic I could careless about the afore mentioned ‘issues’ but the slippery slope leads a long way down, and let the churches display that stuff with their own money, not mine…actually I’m dismayed that the pagan Winter solstice celebration (Dies Natalis Solis Invicti the birthday of the unconquered Sun) was stolen by Rome and think a fat Coca-Cola style American Santa is a more fitting diety to honor during that time of year here.

        • http://ahalbert@smart-technology.net Allan

          Ah, yes. Congress cannot REQUIRE religion, but neither can it PROHIBIT the free exercise of religion. Therefore, all of the modern efforts to to curtail religious expression, whether in schools or other public settings, are unconstitutional.

          • Kinetic1

            Allan,
            Allowing the display or practice of any one religion is tantamount to supporting that one religion. Some say the answer is to allow displays of all religions that request the opportunity, but this is impossible as the very support of religion in general is not permitted. It is for that simple reason that we avoid all forms of religion in our schools unless it pertains to the lesson being taught. Mind you, my children have attended public school where the adults were tolerant or even supportive of prayer at graduation and recognition of Christmas and Chanukah, but only because we as a community agreed to it. It required a degree of tolerance on the part of some, and no single denomination was favored. Sometimes the law is about community and not the entire country.

          • kate8

            k – Congress does not have the authority to allow or disallow the “practice or display” of one’s religion.

            They cannot force us to practice religion, nor can they prohibit us in any way. Our free exercise of our religious beliefs is, Constitutionally, entirely beyond the reach, scope and regulation of Congress or any part of government.

            “Congress shall make NO law…” I don’t see what is so hard to understand about that.

          • http://naver samurai

            Read the 1st Amendment! I mean read it with no leftward tilt to it!

        • http://yahoo snake65

          there is no “federal” money as it is taxes paid by people of the states. and every liberal should read the actual(not the liberal version) history. washington and many others freed their slaves. many of the people adopted slaves so they could be free. there were many black men and women(BOTH BLACK AND WHITE) who fought and helped the fledgeling country get started. many were even envolved in the development of the goverment.
          liberals should realize that if they achieve their goal….who is going to come up with the “free money”? the rest of the world would come down on us and take over. understand?

        • http://yahoo snake65

          again the liberal bs,cs,hs, and all other s’s come to the fore front.
          all the federal buildings and monuments have biblical sayings on them. put there by the builders under instrutions by the MEN OF THE GOVERNMENT!!!! the separation of government and the church had to do with one NOT CONTROLING the other. NOT PRAYERS IN PUBLIC OR SCHOOL OR ANY OTHER THING THE LIBERALS POINT TO..liberals or others should get the facts before putting foot in mouth…….

        • Pathfinder

          cemott3rd : The real slippery slope is the feds using tax money as a carrot and stick on the states. Such funds should not be distributed to the states nor collected from the citizens in the first place. The reason is (as you demonstrate in your own message) that this becomes an excuse to impose ridiculous restrictions on the liberties of the states and of the individual citizens. This is a perfect example of federal interference in matters that are best left to state and/or local government.
          In addition, your grasp of the First amendment is flawed. It does NOT require the banning of a Christmas creche. If your understanding of the first amendment were correct; then George Washington would have been violating the constitution by declaring a day of thanksgiving. I am sure that George knew the constitution better than you or me and was correct in his action.

    • Allen Benge

      I agree, gie ‘em hell. Perhaps your one responent believes Paul rode around in a Ford before joining Jesus. It was Saul of Tarsus, not Taurus, which is a Ford Motor product.

    • http://none lindymaeusa

      “All tyranny needs to gain a foothold is for people of good conscience to remain SILENT!” ~Thomas Jefferson.

      An English missionary once said: “Silence GIVES consent!” so God bless you Chip for NOT being afraid or “politically correct” to TELL IT LIKE IT IS about the stranglehold this corrupt government has on us via twisting, distorting and abusing our Constitution to suit THEIR plans and pocket! PLEASE keep talking, keep reminding us of OUR RIGHTS under that precious document written to STOP the very evils that have been choking us at least the past 50 years (probably, longer than that but we didn’t “notice” it as much!)

      As a VERY alarmed and angry American concerned with the current stupor of the “majority” who “refuse to accept what’s being done to us by this insidious government” because of ignorance or denial, I applaud support you Chip as a TRUE American willing to fight (albeit, verbally!) for his Rights! Thank you, thank you! :-)

      • robert widby

        I hope most Americans realize what this country is going to go through in the next, oh, 8-10 years. We will NOT rebound as far as the economy goes until we have gone through the abyss of the next crash barreling down the highway. This isn’t gloom and doom, it WILL happen. It didn’t have to. America will turn back to the living God who granted us ALL our prosperity or she will reside in some lower tier of the third world. We may just get lucky and see Christ return but if He delays further, [and it's only day two in His time dimension] since He came the first time, we are going to see economic collapse. There is no way around it. And I believe it is by design by the power figures now in charge. So, gather your gold and silver and maybe a few euro etf, get your lowest interest rate on your home, and shred the plastic. Call me Paul Revere, and hear clearly. The collapse is coming, the collapse is coming. Our forfathers would be so ashamed of us. I know our Heavenly Father is. But He loves us and waits for our return. If we do, we’ll recover, eventually.

      • sheldon

        Ironically, it was about 50 years ago that “God” was added to the Pledge of Allegiance and “In God We Trust” was added to currency.

        • http://donthaveone Beberoni

          So, your blaming God? Are your arms long enough to box with Him? Go ahead man, have at it. Oh, and by the way, good luck with that.

          • kate8

            Beberoni, sometimes you really crack me up.

          • sheldon

            “So your blaming God?” First of all… look up the meaning of “irony”. Second, stop assuming or putting words in my mouth, the previous post stated something about the evils of the last 50 years… hence the irony. Third… it’s ‘you’re’ not “your”.

          • http://donthaveone Beberoni

            Your or you’re, who cares. I did bad in English class, so sue me.

        • http://?? Joe H.

          Sheldon,
          you may be right on the pledge, but you couldn’t be much more wrong about the currency!! In God We Trust was added to our coinage during the civil war times!!! I am a coin collector and I have coins from the 1800s that have that motto on them, so take another GUESS!

          • Sheldon

            Joe… you’re absolutely right… about coinage. It was added to PAPER currency in the 1950s (which is what I was referring to).

          • Sheldon

            By the way Joe… “God” was added to coins and paper money for political reasons. The North added God to coinage during the civil war for “propaganda” reasons, and it was added to paper currency and the Pledge of Allegiance in the 1950s to counter the godless commies. Neither of which had ANYTHING to do with the constitution and neither example proves that the founding fathers meant to infer God as part of the government.

          • Sheldon

            So yes Joe, you may have coins from the MID 19th century (circa 1860s) but that’s LONG after the constitution and every and anything relevant to the founding fathers.

          • http://?? Joe H.

            Sheldon,
            you said “currency” not paper money. the coinage of this country are definately part of its currency!!

          • http://naver samurai

            Sorry Shelton, but both sides of the Civil War believed that God was on their side. So, where does the politcal beliefs fit into this?

          • Sheldon

            My statement(s) are still correct and my original statement about the “irony” is also still correct. JoeH is arguing about the word currency and its inclusiveness of coinage in its definition. Overall JoeH your currency versus coinage obfuscation is just a bit of intellectually chicanery… a weak and deceitful tactic. If I would have said “paper money” instead of “currency” how would you have tried to spin my comments? How would you have tried to confuse the issue? Whether or not currency and coinage are synonymous is irrelevant, and despite your failed attempt to disprove my statement on a technicality, my original statement is still accurate. At no point did you… nor have you intellectually refuted my original premise.
            As for Samurai… where do the political beliefs fit into this? Did the Confederate Treasury put “In God We Trust” or any other mention of God on any of their currency (that would be coins or paper money)? Therefore, the addition of God to JoeH’s pennies is wartime propaganda and has nothing to do with the Constitution, the founding Fathers or my original premise on “irony”.

      • Jana

        lindymaeusa,
        We have been silent too long. We have shown our acceptance but not speaking out. We thought it could not possibly ever get this far, but boy were we wrong.
        I am silent no longer. And Chip, thank you for this great post.

    • Granny Mae

      Chip,

      you said it all ! Thanks.

    • Granny Mae

      Chip

      I’m convinced that our poor constitution is in the hands of idiots that can’t follow the directions written on the document ! Maybe it is a lack of concentration or ADD or some other malidy.

      • Christin

        Our GREAT Constitution is available for everyone’s hands to hold.
        I suggest we all get a copy and quote it every time our freedoms are removed.
        The idiots that are in the Ruling Class WISH to BE RID of the American Constitution and its Amendments as it LIMITS their Power. First, they twisted and spun its meaning; then they out-right walked all over it and deny that it is a useful and rightous way to govern… even though they ALL took an Oath to uphold it. It acknowledges God as a devine Creator and their Godless Marxism/ Progressivism needs to replace our Holy God with an evil dictator.

        Time to quit teaching “Case Law” and teach Constitutional Law in our schools again.

        • slickporsche

          Good luck with that.I do agree though.

        • Pathfinder

          Christin : While I agree with the general idea of your post; I must point out a minor error. The constitution, itself, does not reference our Lord or God. This does not, however, validate the contentions of those who have twisted the first amendment. The historical context in which the constitution was written must not be ignored. And it is this context which supports your interpretation of the constitution. In addition to the unanimous declaration of independence, which acknowledges our divine creator several times; the continental congress called on the people to hold a day of fasting and prayer to ask God’s help in our war for independence. George Washington also declared a day of Thanksgiving. I will again assert that president Washington had a better grasp of the constitution than any of us posting here. Thus, it is only via the grossest of “innovations” that one can claim that the constitution would prevent a general support of Christianity. (Support of specific denominations,however, is prohibited.)

    • perry

      In my opinion, freedom is mostly freedom from coercion, theft and deception.

      As an American citizen I have a realistic expectation that the Federal Government will defend my rights and liberties as an
      American citizen preemptively over the regulations of any local governmental subdivision of the Government of the United States of America. (All the states are subdivisions of the Government of the United States of America; municipalities are only smaller subdivisions.)

      My constitutionally guaranteed civil liberties shall not be abridged.

      • http://kd6vkj@yahoo.com Saul

        perry are you blind to what has been going on, the dumbama is wanting to take away our right to keep and bear arms, his secratery of state has been secreatly talking with the un about small arms treaties that would take away our right to have our GUNS. How would you feel if some jerk broke into your house while you where there tied you up and took all your posesions all with out being able to protect youself. Remember what this prez did to Ill. he made it a crime to protect yourself, he had a law passed that if you stopped a crminal from doing his dirty deed then you go to jail. This dumbama has a twisted idea of how to do things, under his leadership we do have a problem, if you were to shot an invader in your house then according this prez you or me were the ones in the wrong not the crimanl. This guy has already done things that subvert the Constution. the president has no leagle footing to push his own laws yet this one has, he is also the only one who has not shown or made avilable his birth certficate instead he seald it that is aganist the law. In his first two speaches he came out and said that America is no longer a Christian nation and that any who believes in Christ is a moron now that is a very stupid thing for a president ta say. For all I know you might have voted for him in which case you are a maslam andI mean that in the foulest means and ways. Chip is right when he said that the constution has been twisted, this gay oops guy of a prez has deleated and rearanged this vital document to suit his own pricipalsdumbama needs to be impeached along with all his cohorts.

        • Betty

          No one listened when egO zaid the constitution “gets in my way’.
          It seems to me the so called Jefferson letter of separation of church and state was in answer to a letter from the Danvers Baptists asking hi to not repress religion, not to use governmrntal powers to attempt to do away with christianity. Jefferson said he would not. Shortly thereafter, he commented that he realized that his words were being miscontrued. In other words, this big “Let’s do away with God and the Bible”, was going on even then. He may not have believed in God, but he granted others the right to do so, without government interferrence.

          • http://none Scotty*j316

            The wall of separation between religion or of church and state was one sentence in the Danburry Baptist’s letter from Thomas Jefferson.
            The letter was a request from the Danburry Baptist, to ask for a federal holiday of fasting and prayer.
            Thomas Jefferson said he was not allowed to do this because of the first amendment, “which created a necessary wall of separation between the church and the federal government.”
            This was to keep the government out not the church or religion out of the public square.
            Jefferson according to his writtings believed; “That only a moral christian nation could rule themselves, because without these beliefs in a savior and the bible the very fabric of our society and our ability to rule ourselves would unravel.”
            Hmmmm. We have taken the road without the moral high ground enough that we may live to see exactly what he was talking about happen to us. Our lack of moral grounding and faith may take this nation down yet.

          • Jana

            Scottyj,
            You are so right. Thank you for common sense.

        • eyeswideopen

          Saul, you seem to not understand that our founding fathers didn’t want this nation to have a national religion. They acknowledge God, but no where in the Constitution is Jesus named. You really should read the constitution. Don’t you remember your history?? They were fleeing religious persecution in England. This site will be very enlightening for you. http://freethought.mbdojo.com/foundingfathers.html

          • eclecticmum

            The 55 writers of the U.S. Constitution consisted of: 26 Episcopalians, 11 Presbyterians, 7 Congregationalists, 2 Lutherans, 2 Dutch Reformed, 2 Methodists, 2 Roman Catholics, 2 Quakers and 1 Deist. You really need to do more research and open your eyes a little wider.

          • kate8

            But the founding documents are dated as “the year of our Lord”.

            To whom do you suppose they were referring?

          • Normal Guy

            Let’s see,

            Dear Kate – I don’t think you are dear and I could care less about you but this is a standard opening.

            Do you get it, it is a standard opening, don’t be so obtuse, what a ridiculous position, use your head.

            Any other brain dead questions?

          • kate8

            Well, see, Normal Guy, that is a difference between you and me. I do not know you and wouldn’t make such a hateful remark as you just did, but I actually care about EVERYONE living in this nation, even including you. In fact, I care about ALL people, but that is another issue.

            Your response to my post is typical liberal twist, contort, cloud and evade. I do not believe that our founders used “In the year of our Lord” as a meaningless opening, or closing. They used it because that is how they saw it.

            In their writings they often referred to Divine Providence. Do you think that was a meaningless euphemism also? I think not. They WANTED God to watch over this land, and the majority of them did, in fact, often invoke the Name of the Savior.

          • http://naver samurai

            Normal guy, you don’t seem to understand that the statement “In the year of our LORD” is a reference to the year after the birth of Jesus Christ. Before the birth of Jesus, no one said the “In the year of our LORD/GOD, etc.”, so what’s your point? Maybe this historian should tell you to study up more on the subject. Remember, our founding fathers believed in nature and nature’s GOD. Do you understand? Remember also that this is a christian nation and shall never change from that as long as God has dominion over this country. FOR GOD AND COUNTRY!

          • Denniso

            Sam…this IS NOT a Christian nation. This is a country w/ many different religions and even many w/no religion. Have you stopped to think about the differences between all the so called Christian religions in this country? Are Catholics included in Christianity by the Evangelicals? Do Mormons accept other Christians as actual Christians? There is essentially no such thing as a single,indentifiable type of Christian.

            Domminion over the earth? How about humans quit copping out and leaving the responsibility w/ somebody’s particular god, and start taking responsibility for what we are all doing to the earth and societies.

          • http://naver samurai

            Denniso, I agree that there are different religions here, but the majority are christians. What do you mean by not asking God for help or saying that we are falling back on God, because we made mistakes along the way? We always rely on God and Jesus in good times and bad. This is still a christian nation, duhniso!

            1889 – SCOTUS rules this nation to be a christian nation.

            “Where is the security for property, for reputation, for life, if the sense of religioius obligation desert the oaths, which are the instruments of investigation of Courts of Justice?” Washington’s Farewell Address

            “God governs in the affairs of men.” Ben Franklin

            There are so many more I could tell you, but it would take up the whole site to do that. Get your facts straight before you post, lib moron! FOR GOD AND COUNTRY!

          • Denniso

            Fact, we humans control the fate of the earth…we have the power for good and evil in our hands. Until we wake up to that fact we will continue whining about the way things are in the world and futilely asking why god lets terrible things happen and why he doesn’t seem to listen to our prayers. Humans have to stand up and take responsibility for OUR actions, not those of someone’s god..

          • http://naver samurai

            Duhniso, I think you need you get your head out of your arse! We have no power to do good or evil, unless we are influenced by God, Jesus, or satan. Satan fills our hearts with bad things and makes us want to do the same wants, wishes, desires, etc. God and Jesus make us want to do good things in their names. You know like giving money to a beggar on the street and knowing that what you did was right by God. If you accept rewards, praise, or anything else and take full credit, without giving credit to God and Jesus, you are only fooling yourself and will get no reward at the end of your life (Going to heaven). If you don’t believe in God, when we send Obama bin Laden back to Kenya or Indonesia, you can go with him and be with your heathen brothers.
            FOR GOD AND COUNTRY!

          • Denniso

            So you don’t believe in free will? You think that we are essentially puppets at the beck and call of Satan or God? Boy,oh boy…I think you’ve claimed some education before,but you aren’t sounding very educated. If all we do is controlled by Satan or God then why do we do anything rather than just waiting for one influence or the other to affect us,and how do we know when it’s Satan or God?

            What a dismal and unintellectual way to live a life, a life that can be full of mental excitement and intellectual challenges when a person knows that she has responsibility for her own actions.

            If God is all powerful,how is it that the puny devil seems to be such a great opponent w/ powers that seem to match God’s? The world has been full of evil for thousands of yrs…slaughter,pedophile priests,greed,corruption,terrible disease,war,pestilence,starvation,natural disasters and more. It would appear from history that Satan is winning, and how can that be if God is all powerful?

      • kate8

        perry, you’ve kind of got that backwards from what our founders intended. It is in the fed where the danger of overstepping power lies. The job of the fed is to keep us safe so the states can safely conduct their business.

        But then, that’s all been explained. You just aren’t listening.

        • usmadgirl

          kate8,

          Well said on all your above comments!

    • June

      Thank you Chip..Hang in there and keep us informed.

    • Deborah, Texas

      Good article!

      I just got home from going out shopping for survival supplies. On my way out, I pass by the City Hall. I noticed a new military looking jeep, but in black. The man standing beside it was on the CB. Headed home, I noticed it again. I turned around and went for a closer look. Branded it said, “Military Troops”. It was like the Ford Stamp but smaller and at the front of the jeep.
      If you don’t think the military is in your community, you’d better think again. I don’t know who these people are…hell it could be nothing. I’m so gd freaked out that I don’t know if I’m over reacting or not.
      Going to hook up my one of my supplies to see what I can hear.
      God bless, if you haven’t watched Red Dawn, I suggest you should.

      • Coservative at Birth

        Red Dawn is on the horizon. Watch for unmarked vehicles with U.N. personnel after Obama signs the small arms agrement that H. Clinton has been working on.

        • Karolyn

          Paranoia breeds paranoia.

      • Cameron

        Another good movie is “Soldier” starring Kurt Russell. In it a group of ex-soldiers is impressed back into service to plant a bomb. One asks the officer in charge if they will be issued weapons. She replies, “Only soldiers are allowed to have weapons. You are no longer soldiers.” Scary, but that’s what Liberals believe, only soldiers, the police, (both only when on active duty), and of course, LIBERAL ELITES!

    • Cameron

      Arguing with a Liberal is like arguing with an idiot, not QUITE the same but almost. They’ll drag you down to their level and beat you with experience, not facts. If you DO argue with them, stick to the facts and they’ll have no way to win.

    • Pete2sail

      I agree with you Joe — Chip must continue the fight even though it is with ignorance because if you do ignorance wins. I write many emails to a list which at one time included quite a few liberals or Lib-Progs as I call them and have responded to their sometimes clever spins and sometimes idiotic replys wiht facts — fact — facts and most of them wind up name calling and or shutting me out of their maiing list. I feel I have won and at the very least I hope that my input to them will someday penetrate === However I will not hold my breath — Pete Maniscalco
      PS — something to think about –’JUST BECAUSE YOU SAY I AM WRONG DOES NOT MEAN I AM NOT RIGHT.

  • s c

    I wouldn’t exactly say JM has his head rammed up his back side, but it’s close. Trying to reason or communicate with a liberal/’Dem’/progressive is not quite as much fun as pouring urine out of a boot.
    It takes too much effort to keep tranlating words from liberalese into English. I’d rather be serenaded with sharp fingernails on a blackboard than try and get a lib/’Dem’/progressive to listen to and fathom common sense. Doing laps in an olympic-sized septic tank is the only other option, and the luster wore off that choice many years ago.

    • kate8

      sc, another great post. And, as usual, good for a chuckle.

    • Al Sieber

      Sc, good post. if Chip wants to try and convince Liberals he should start on this website.

      • dan of arizona

        even fast eddie and smilie would’nt enter this one al

        • http://naver samurai

          Shhh! They might see your post and come running to the site and make some fool comments! Though I do agree with you on your statement.

    • Vicki

      The reason to argue with liberals is NOT to change their mind, though it could happen, it is to invalidate their lies so that thoughtful people who come here can learn the truth.

  • Normal Guy

    Jefferson disagrees with you, the constitution must be a living document, it must be refective of its time. Tendsof millions of Americans the majority disagree with you..

    “A generation may bind itself as long as its majority continues in life; when that has disappeared, another majority is in place, holds all the rights and powers their predecessors once held and may change their laws and institutions to suit themselves. Nothing then is unchangeable but the inherent and unalienable rights of man.” –Thomas Jefferson to John Cartwright, 1824. ME 16:48

    “A schism in our Union… would be an incurable evil, because near friends falling out, never re-unite cordially; whereas, all of us going together, we shall be sure to cure the evils of our new Constitution, before they do great harm.” –Thomas Jefferson to Alexander Donald, 1788. ME 6:426

    “Some men look at constitutions with sanctimonious reverence and deem them like the ark of the covenant, too sacred to be touched. They ascribe to the men of the preceding age a wisdom more than human and suppose what they did to be beyond amendment. I knew that age well; I belonged to it and labored with it. It deserved well of its country. It was very like the present but without the experience of the present; and forty years of experience in government is worth a century of book-reading; and this they would say themselves were they to rise from the dead.” –Thomas Jefferson to Samuel Kercheval, 1816. ME 15:40

    “Those who [advocate] reformation of institutions pari passu with the progress of science [maintain] that no definite limits [can] be assigned to that progress. The enemies of reform, on the other hand, [deny] improvement and [advocate] steady adherence to the principles, practices and institutions of our fathers, which they [represent] as the consummation of wisdom and acme of excellence, beyond which the human mind could never advance.” –Thomas Jefferson to John Adams, 1813. ME 13:254

    “I am certainly not an advocate for frequent and untried changes in laws and constitutions. I think moderate imperfections had better be borne with; because, when once known, we accomodate ourselves to them and find practical means of correcting their ill effects. But I know also that laws and institutions must go hand in hand with the progress of the human mind. As that becomes more developed, more enlightened, as new discoveries are made, new truths disclosed and manners and opinions change with the change of circumstances, institutions must advance also and keep pace with the times.” –Thomas Jefferson to Samuel Kercheval, 1816. ME 15:40

    “The idea that institutions established for the use of the nation cannot be touched nor modified even to make them answer their end because of rights gratuitously supposed in those employed to manage them in trust for the public, may perhaps be a salutary provision against the abuses of a monarch but is most absurd against the nation itself. Yet our lawyers and priests generally inculcate this doctrine and suppose that preceding generations held the earth more freely than we do, had a right to impose laws on us unalterable by ourselves, and that we in like manner can make laws and impose burdens on future generations which they will have no right to alter; in fine, that the earth belongs to the dead and not the living.” –Thomas Jefferson to William Plumer, 1816. ME 15:46

    “Religious institutions that use government power in support of themselves and force their views on persons of other faiths, or of no faith, undermine all our civil rights. Moreover, state support of an established religion tends to make the clergy unresponsive to their own people, and leads to corruption within religion itself. Erecting the ‘wall of separation between church and state,’ therefore, is absolutely essential in a free society.”
    — Thomas Jefferson

    • JeffH

      You say tens of millions disagree? Maybe you have a source you can provide to support that statement. I think that tens of millions support the Constitution as it was written and do not believe it is a “living” document who’s interpretation should change with the times.
      The Constitution means exactly what it says and those that wrote it had a vision far ahead of their time. The Constitution makes as much sense today as it ever has.

      • Randy

        Nice try Normal Guy, thanks for playing. Attempting to cite Jefferson’s opinion on legislation as a justification for leftist usurpation of the Constitution just cannot be allowed to stand. If Jefferson was alive he would rebuke you for attempting to co-opt his correspondence into the service of your corrupt and despotic agenda. If there are defects in the Constitution the Founders made provision for correcting these defects in the Amendment process. The fact that the Left hates this is prima facia evidence that the modern American Left is either lazy, stupid, or wicked. I’ll leave you a couple of other Jeffersonisms that are in context and germane to the discussion:

        “We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.” – Translation for dumb as dirt liberals: God grants rights not the state and the state cannot destroy, amend , or extend rights.

        “And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are the gift of God? That they are not to be violated but with his wrath? Indeed I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just: that his justice cannot sleep for ever . . . .” – Translation for truth challenged left wringers: Freedom and liberty only exist where there is an acknowledgment of God as the granter and guarantor of those rights.

        So crawl back into your hole, snake.

        • GoodMojo

          Randy,

          Simply put, that was AWESOME! Thanks!

          • Denniso

            Randy…sorry to inform you,but Jefferson and many,if not most,of the
            ‘founders’ were progressives/liberals. For their time they were open minded,tolerant and well educated and the elite. Does that sound like the definition of conservative? No…

          • Vicki

            Yes they were. That is why those of us here who are ALSO classical liberals dislike what big government control freaks have done to our good name. Just look at their writings. You can tell which are the liberals and which are the classical liberals.

          • Denniso

            Are you tolerant,open minded and well educated? There’s nothing ‘classical’ about that, that’s a liberal by modern definition.
            If you support violence,you are provincial and intolerant then you are no liberal,classical or modern.

          • http://naver samurai

            Duhniso, good luck trying to compare Obama bin Laden with our founding fathers, who were christian by the way. They believed in nature and nature’s GOD! Read the posts I’ve left to you through this site and educate yourself. Are you an elite, higher educated, etc., person there duhniso? We really don’t think so. If Jefferson was as you say, then why did he sign all his documents: “In the Year of Our Lord?” Remember, Jefferson did believe in God, but didn’t believe in organized religion. Take you lib self off of this site till you can come up with some real facts and state your sources. FOR GOD AND COUNTRY!

          • Denniso

            Samurai…you don’t get it, do you. First,many of the founders were Deists. That’s a person who believes in some form of god,not a specifically Christian,Hindu,Muslim or any other religion’s god. You and most religious people can’t figure out that most religions belive in a god,but they each think that god is only their god…that it is not the same god as other religions have. So being a deist has nothing to do w/ Christianity at all,any more than it has any connection to being a Muslim. So, this country is not a christian country just because the majority here are Christians…there are more registered Democrats than Republicans,would you then say we are a Democrat country?

            Now, why don’t you try thinking about that just a little while before you go off half cocked and post another rant…

          • http://naver samurai

            Sorry duhniso, wrong again! Only Thomas Jefferson has been recorded as a deist. Washington was a free mason (33rd level) and those of them that would become federalist were very conservative christians, so where do you plan to go with this lie? Tell me the sources you have to support these facts and I will take the time to look them up. If you are right, I’ll concede defeat. If not, then just quick spreading your lib, nazi propaganda on this site. The quotes and facts I’ve posted here are backed up with 15 – 20 books I have here in my home. Let me know if you want to know the names of them so you can look for yourself. FOR GOD AND COUNTRY!

          • Vicki

            This should keep denniso busy reading for a while

            Religion of the Founding Fathers
            http://www.adherents.com/gov/Founding_Fathers_Religion.html

          • Vicki

            Denniso says:
            Are you tolerant,open minded and well educated? There’s nothing ‘classical’ about that, that’s a liberal by modern definition.”

            That is why I said we need to take back our good name from those who call themselves liberal and then force PC speech upon us.

            “If you support violence,you are provincial and intolerant then you are no liberal,classical or modern.”

            Provincial is not related to violence. Being intolerant does not mean being violent.

          • Denniso

            You can’t imagine that intolerance of other people and their life style and culture can lead to violence against those people? I don’t mean being intolerant of murder,rape,corruption,greed…

          • Denniso

            I’ll look up the founders religion again,but that site doesn’t appear credible. Even if Jefferson was the only Deist,so what? Isn’t he one of the dominant and most important of the group? And, 200+ years ago,not many people w/ any religious doubt had the courage or ability to ‘come out’,so to speak, about any doubt they may have had,since Christianity had almost a total lock on our society and it was taboo ot go against it. Remember the Salem witch hangings?
            But, if I get to it I’ll look up the founders religious views again. My memory says there were more than just Jefferson who were Deists.

          • Denniso

            Samurai…I did look at the site Vicki posted and it lists Jefferson and Franklin as Deists, not only Jefferson. It also has several listed as Unitarians and Quakers,neither of which have a belief in god as a requirement to belong. Many in both of those religions are agnostic or atheist or deist.
            It doesn’t matter anyway because they were smart enough to include the ‘establishment clause’ in the constitution,which separates the gov’t from religion.

        • http://roger.drake.dbi@gmail.com gene

          You notice how they (the disgruntled left) always say that a majority agrees with them, they have studied the issue, it’s not fair or just totally distort the truth. Well, the basic issue is they can not comprehend the truth. It is similar to issues relating to evolution. They really do not comprehend the complexity of life. It’s all so very simple to their minds- anything is possible over millions of years. If we could only be a socialist dictatorship then, everything would be so much better.

          • Vicki

            A majority of them do agree with them :) that is why they want to turn the rest of us into demons.

        • http://personallibertydigest jim

          By “God” I would suggest the meaning is that no man (say King) has veto power over the rights of man. If “God” is, on the other hand, an omnipotent being then those who believe in that being should be allowed (under this enterpretation of the constitution) to make laws according to religious dictate. Then if you believe in that interpretation of the constitution, America should support devout Muslems for following there religious dictates (verses constitutionaly guaranteed rights)to stone women for adultry.
          Now this, of course, is an extreme example only to point out that religious concepts can be in conflict with constitutional rights. The people who argue for caution in this area are aware of this conflict and come down (conservativly) on the side of human rights over religios rights. After all should a law based solely on a religious belief be forced on those who don’t share that religion?

          • CJ

            Put your own question back on your argument and you have the reason for the Constitution. Something has to be used as the supreme rule. And the Constitution does that by proclaiming God’s law is used in this country, while tolerating others. This does not mean total allowance of others, only tolerance. There is a difference.

          • Cameron

            Our laws are all, or WERE all, based on the Ten Commandments, without which chaos would rein supreme. We must have rules by which all civilized people can peacefully co-exist, and these laws are based on and in Christianity and no other religion. Other religions condone barbarism in the name of God, or Allah.

          • kate8

            jim, what part about “Congress shall make no law…” did you not quite understand?

            The very idea of individual liberty comes from Judeo-Christian principles. Unlike Islam, Christianity realizes that, unless a man comes to the Lord freely and of his own accord, it is of no value. God allows us to defy His laws, and He allows us to endure the natural consequences of our rebellion in the hope that we see a better way.

            Being a loving God, He wants our love, not forced submission. To worship Him means loving that which He is: Love, Mercy, Holines, Justice, Peace, Joy, Abundance, Generosity, Creation, Beauty, Patience….
            He wants us to worship His attributes because we become that which we worship.

          • Kim

            Our Constitution gives freedom of religion along with freedom from religion, under the laws of our land. Not some other laws, like the middle east and their sharia law. It protects human rights in cases like these Islamic laws, and always should. Being created equal was a right giving to all races and both sexes by our God, the one and only true God of love. He also gave freedom of religion or freedom from rreligion, in freewill. It just takes time to get it right since none of us are perfect! It is terrible that the leftwing progressives want to tear this country apart at the seams, they think socialism is the way to go. Well I remember the hippies of the 60′s, and they are the ones behide this movement now and surroud Obama and his people.

        • Kat

          Bravo Randy. Well said!

        • Marc

          “We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.” – Translation for dumb as dirt liberals: God grants rights not the state and the state cannot destroy, amend , or extend rights.”
          Would the slaves of that time…and the American Indians… have felt that they were created equal ? Also apply that to women of the time.
          Amending the Constitution is something that Jefferson did support.

        • http://kd6vkj@yahoo.com Saul

          Randy I have to agree with you on that, that guy is a snake. when the Constution was written it took four pages to get it all down. When I went into the COAST GUARD I had to take certain oaths to uphold the constution and to protect this country from all invaders forgein and domstic. As far as I am concerned the Constution is nearly perfect as it is writen

        • Normal Guy

          So the constitution does not declare specifically that there should be a separation of church and state. So what… the interpretation of the constitution (that is the mandate of the supreme court and it was a brilliant decision and outstanding structure for making the constitution durable – three levels all overlapping) and the direction of the framers certainly makes clear that this is the intent – if you read the history you can see that this was certainly a point of contention. Oh indecently you one dimensional dopes will note that Jefferson wrote Madison after the US constitution was written and immediately started pushing for the bill of rights. You will also find that even though Jefferson was in France his influence was substantial.

          Here again is Jefferson’s take.

          “In every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection to his own.” –Thomas Jefferson to Horatio G. Spafford, 1814. ME 14:119

          “History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance of which their civil as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purposes.” –Thomas Jefferson to Alexander von Humboldt, 1813. ME 14:21

          “[When] the [Virginia] bill for establishing religious freedom… was finally passed,… a singular proposition proved that its protection of opinion was meant to be universal. Where the preamble declares that coercion is a departure from the plan of the holy author of our religion, an amendment was proposed, by inserting the word “Jesus Christ,” so that it should read “a departure from the plan of Jesus Christ, the holy author of our religion.” The insertion was rejected by a great majority, in proof that they meant to comprehend within the mantle of its protection the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and Mahometan, the Hindoo and infidel of every denomination.” –Thomas Jefferson: Autobiography, 1821. ME 1:67

          “Believing… that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their Legislature should ‘make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,’ thus building a wall of separation between Church and State.” –Thomas Jefferson to Danbury Baptists, 1802. ME 16:281

          • http://donthaveone Beberoni

            And in reading that which you just wrote, no court in the land should be able to ban a city from wanting to put a cross in the lawn to celebrate the birth of Jesus Christ on Christmas day. It is forcing no one to participate or think a certain way, but giving people freedom to participate in celebrating Jesus’s birth. But we cant do that now, so says the ACLU and the cowards in the court houses that back them up. This totally violates my freedom of religion, but it seems that only the Christian, the Catholic, and the Jews rights are allowed to be smashed. Everyone else’s are protected, but its open season on the Christian, the Catholic and the Jew. Its wrong, wrong, wrong, but I dont fret, because my God has already prevailed and won, and those that do this, well, they will get their chance to answer for it.

          • http://naver samurai

            1889 – The SCOTUS ruled that this nation is a christian nation. Get over it and get a life!

        • http://?? Joe H.

          Normal guy
          i suggest you read the letters of the founders. A good many of them believed in Jesus as well as God!!

          • Normal Guy

            As I said this was a point of contention.

        • Kinetic1

          Randy,
          How do your Jeffersonian quotes defeat or supersede Normal Guy’s? Jefferson was, by all accounts a very wise man and a child of the enlightenment. The fact that your quotes confirm that he believed in a greater power do not make him the fundamentalist Christian that would oppose all changes that might offend your one true god. In fact, I think Jefferson describes the current conservative movement well when in quote #3 he says,

          “They ascribe to the men of the preceding age a wisdom more than human and suppose what they did to be beyond amendment.”

          This fantasy of “Original Intent” is just an excuse to resist the inevitable. Jefferson grew with the passage of time, and his correspondences are valuable proof of his wisdom. This is one of the men who WROTE our laws writing about the successes and failures, the effects and the realities of those same laws. His opinion flies in the face of many current conservative leaders and it stings. They flail and curse, then they try their best to convince their followers that our founders were all devoted men of Christ, ignoring the words of our founders contemporaries and quoting charlatans and frauds of the day if they must.

          Consider this. Jefferson considered English common law as the foundation of our Constitution, a law that some considered to have it’s roots in Christianity (sound familiar?) Jefferson argued:

          “For we know that the common law is that system of law which was introduced by the Saxons on their settlement in England, and altered from time to time by proper legislative authority from that time to the date of Magna Charta, which terminates the period of the common law. . . This settlement took place about the middle of the fifth century. But Christianity was not introduced till the seventh century; the conversion of the first christian king of the Heptarchy having taken place about the year 598, and that of the last about 686. Here then, was a space of two hundred years, during which the common law was in existence, and Christianity no part of it.”

          Translation, as you might say “for reality challenged right wingers: History does not support the idea that the Constitution was based on the Bible.

          But let’s put this to bed once and for all. in 1797, John Adams signed and the Senate approved the Treaty of Tripoli which read:
          “As the Government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Musselmen; and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.”

          I think these words are clear enough that even you do not need an explanation, but just in case, you may, on one hand continue to believe that this is a Christian nation, founded on Christian values and principles, or you may believe in the founders, the constitution and “original intent”, but you can’t, in good faith believe in both. And next time Newt, or Rush, or Hannity gets on his soap box and demands we fight the Muslim invasion and the usurpation of our constitution by Sharia Law, show him the treaty of Tripoli.

          • Jeeper

            There are basically two schools on the Constitution: “Original Meaning” (I think “Strict Construction” is another name) and “Living Document.”

            Documents such as the US Constitution obviously mean what the words on paper – as understood at the time of writing – say they mean. Otherwise, the documents have no advantage over a purely oral tradition. Further, this is demonstrated by the inclusion in the original of a specified process to amend it so we can change its meaning if we want to badly enough.

            The Constitution is, indeed, a “living document” if one includes the amendment process. If one believes that it is a “living document” because its meaning as interpreted by the United States Supreme Court changes from generation to generation, then the Constitution is, in fact, a dead letter. In this case, no argument as to its meaning can be rationally undertaken because the words don’t have a fixed meaning, anyway; so what would we argue over?

            The Constitution provides for amendment by Congress and the several states. It does not provide for amendment through interpretation by 9 members of a court, not even the US Supreme Court.

          • http://donthaveone Beberoni

            Christianity was introduced 2010 years ago, when Jesus Christ took the nails and died on that cross, and rose 3 days later. When Peter and Paul and James and John and Matthew and the rest of the disciples carried on His word, that is when it was introduced. Evil has tried to quash it more than once, but it never will happen. In the end, it will be all that is left. All other religions and all the immoral’s will be gone. If Im wrong, big deal, but if Im right, there are a lot of folks that need to re-think how they approach life.

        • libertytrain

          Denniso – I think one problem is that one site really isn’t the answer – perhaps several books that can verify the issue may help, however, none of us will ever know now what was truly in their hearts as far as this matter goes. Religion really can be such a private thing, and subject to the time in which one lives as to how it is worn on our persons.

          • Denniso

            You’re right,and just like now when almost all politicians feel the pressure to profess a belief and adherence to Christianity, though there have to be more than 1 or 2 who don’t believe in god,the founders were political as well and had to toe the line to some degree to stay acceptable to the public.

            It also doesn’t matter if most of the founders were Christian or not…someone knew the importance of getting the ‘estabishment caluse’
            into the Constitution…they were smart enough and had read and seen enough history to realize that religion should be kept out of gov’t affairs. People can pray anywhere they want but they can’t connect it to public institutions…pray at home,in the forest,in the church in your religious schools.

          • Denniso

            There are about 15% of the country who are non believers…using that percentage for congress there would be about 80 non believers,yet as it is there are only 1 or 2 brave enough to ‘come out’ as doubters. Given that most people think congress doesn’t represent the ‘people’ and they are more corrupt and evil,maybe we would would expect even more non believers in congress,by the ‘conservatives’ estimation. This goes to show that political leaders are cowed by the pressure of our dominant religion,and would our founders have been any more honest or courageous if they doubted the existence of god or Jesus as god?

      • Bababa’s mom

        The Constitution is living and breathing just as the bible and it is as applicable today as yesterday without change of interpreation. If it needs to be changed there is a process by which amendments can be made. Without that it stands as is. Our courts and presidents have bypassed this process to put their personal agendas forward. This needs to stop. In God we have trusted and need to continue to trust.

        • Jay

          The Bible is NOT a living document, we are not free to add to or take away from the Holy Scriptures as the False Teachers would have us believe.
          The Constitution is NOT a living document, we can however add amendments to it but we cannot LEGALLY take away from it.

          • Jeanetta Nipper

            Sooo… the Bible is not a living document?? I can tell you’ve never read it. How ’bout this…Heb 4:12 For the Word that God speaks is alive and full of power [making it active, operative, energizing, and effective]; it is sharper than any two-edged sword, penetrating to the dividing line of the breath of life (soul) and [the immortal] spirit, and of joints and marrow [of the deepest parts of our nature], exposing and sifting and analyzing and judging the very thoughts and purposes of the heart.
            You can run, but you can’t hide.

          • http://INTERNETEXPLORER GUNDOCTOR

            jay…..hope your not including the amendments in your “taking away from it rant”……because we can repeal amendments! unless you are another senseless “democrap”, which I have my suspicions of, get all your ducks lined up before you attempt to fire!

          • http://kd6vkj@yahoo.com Saul

            Jay read Revelation 22 verse 19. This verse says it all about the bible if you take away from it then God shall take away his part from the book of life. The constution is just fine as it stands it does NOT need to be rewriten or anything else.
            Remember that this prez we have is the begining of the end of this country he hates everything about it so does pelosi and frankinstein these are people we have to get out of office they are whats is wrong with this country. They want a one religin country with them at the head .

          • Kim

            Yes you can take from the costitution by repealing an admendment through congressional admendments and ratifing by the votes of at least 38 states. And no you can not add to God’s word, but it is living because the Word is God, look at the Gospel of John

          • http://naver samurai

            Jay you have just buried yourself in a pile of stupidity! To others that answered his persons post, I agree with you all! It seems jay doesn’t know our Constitution, processes, or the Bilibe at all. Just ignore him as he is just trying to “stir up the waters.”

        • Cameron

          When will people understand that our Constitution is NOT a “living, breathing” document. It does NOT change with the times, and neither does the Bible. You can find examples in the Bible that echo today’s problems almost as if the Bible was written yesterday, and the Bible provides solutions to every problem, as written. Our Constitution means what it meant when it was written, and so does the Bible.

          • http://naver samurai

            100% agree!

      • sylviaM

        JeffH I agree with the atatement that the Constitution is NOT a living document but instead a DOCUMENT to live by. as is the TEN COMANDMENTS, I carry with me at all times a hand book of the CONSTITUTION, and I also think it should be on every school wall if not in every school room.
        Also no-where in the CONSTITUTION does it say there is a separation of CHURCH & STATE. If it were to be true then WHY is it on every aspect of the GOVERNMENT including the OATH THAT ALL TAKE WHEN SWORN IN. Even on the MONEY we spend for our selves. Even the LAW says we have Civil RIghts as well as GOD GIVEN RIGHTS, so on that all I have to say is GOD BLESS AMERICA and Mr. WOODS

        • http://INTERNETEXPLORER GUNDOCTOR

          hear! hear! say it like it is…keep it simple. (but even then the liberals won’t get it right, because it is not the way “they” want it).

        • http://kd6vkj@yahoo.com Saul

          SylviaM have you taken a good look at the front of the buildings of not only congress but the suppream court they all have basically the same words written on them and the one word that really stands out is GOD if these sinners we have in office now stopped to look they might understand what our founding fathers had to say. And by the way this prez we have wants to have IN GOD WE TRUST taken off because as he says it discreamanates aganist all the other religions in the country I say leave the money alone do start making changes to it. Leave the words there.

          • Cameron

            Could THIS be the “change” our Fuhr.., I mean Leader promised?

      • kate8

        JeffH, Here, here.

        How anyone cannot see the marvelous wisdom of this document is sad to behold. But then, if your purpose is to take from some and give to others (namely, oneself), and wield power over others, one would need to twist and contort its meaning until one could derive such power.

        If all one wanted was to live in peace and freedom, and extend the same for all, it works just fine as written.

      • Kim

        Jeff H. it is living only in the respect that it can be ammended by 38 states voting to ratify an amendment by the congress to it. And also, it is like the Bible or any other book, it says want the reader wants it say not what was originally intended, to suit their wants and needs if you know what I mean

        • slickporsche

          What you really mean is that if you do not like what it says,you will like and attorey, twist it to meet your needs. Very liberal of you!

          • Kim

            slickporsche, no I am not a liberal, just saying people read, then interpet, to make something fit their own lifestyle, and not what the author intended. When people quit jumping at everything as rightwing or leftwing, and going defensive, about things that are truely important, start discussing instead of name clalling with hate, this country will stay divided. Nobody cares about or understands the two sides of these posts, the far left and the right are brainwashed. There is a big difference between the old democrats and the democrates of today. It is alright to be a conservative or a liberal, only if you do not try to force others to live by your standards. That is why America has always been a great nation. People need to come together as Americans, with freedoms that have been included in our laws, without all of this hate. These far left and far right people will never give up due to years of brainwashing. It takes prayer and love and the blessings from the God of Heaven to change people,

      • slickporsche

        I certainly agree with you Jeff. What would you have it you continually changed the constitution? Nothing! In reality, you would have no constitution. That is exactly how the liberals would like it.

    • Todd

      They are changing our “inalienable rights”.

      Life… The right to life is being changed through the new health care bill. Government officails will have the right to decide whether or not someone is deserving of medical treatment.

      Liberty… We have the freedom and liberty to express our religeous expression in any way we want, without any restriction from the federal government.

      Pursuit of Happiness… Excessive taxes are restricting and discouraging people from their pursuit of happiness guarranteed in the Constitution as being free from federal government restrictions.

      I really don’t care what gets put into the Constitution as long as it is in the spirit of what those who founded our country intended to keep secure from those in the government…

      Life.
      Liberty.
      Protection of personal property.
      Equality of all men before the eyes of the law.

      • Dan Burke

        Liberty? Here I thought they were slowly and carefully changing their wording. It used to be discussed that we had freedom of religion. Now the politicians talk about freedom of worship. Wait!!! I thought I had freedom of religion, to think and believe what I will? Now I can only worship as I please? Does this mean that the “state” will decide what I can think and believe? This sounds a lot like some variations of non religious “religions” I have heard of. Sort of like saying there is no God but allowing everyone to express some form of spiritual practice because the ritual is important for social benefits…. If that sounds confusing, well, I thought there whole logic was rather, um, off kilter. As for myself, I believe in God and believe that there is very good reason that mankind looks for God in their lives, because God designed us that way (or perhaps we came from God’s presence before this life and though having forgotten all are now unconsciously aware of the light and knowledge missing so we try to find it). I do not begrudge those who choose not to believe in God. I believe we all have the freedom to believe. What I disagree with is having government get involved, and if government is going to determine what is acceptable for religions to preach and try to educate our youth to “worship” the earth, then I am inclined to believe that freedom of religion is on the chopping block…. And to top things off, I read somewhere that government would like to extend school hours, longer hours and perhaps seven days a week. Hmm, sounds to me like they would like to take away our childrens’ freedom of religion if they could by taking away their sabbath worship (Saturday and Sunday are fairly common among majority of religions in America) and by reducing the hours we as parents could possibly expose our children to religion. But then this government is currently stuck in the idea that if a little spending doesn’t fix the problem then spend more. When I consider education, I find it ironic that private schools get better results with less money and states that spend more on private education may get negligible benefits over states that spend very little (such as Idaho having scores right up there despite spending some of the least per student). But when your objective is controlling the future, you MUST take a lesson from progressives of the past and focus on educating the youth to your point of view (and that includes making sure that their possibility of becoming “religious” is minimal because religious people are far more likely to be staunch conservatives like you see here).

        • http://kd6vkj@yahoo.com Saul

          Have to agree with you on that I am A member of the LDS church. And I believe that government should stay out of all religions reguardless of what they say. dumbama at one time said trust me i know whats best for the country he knows nothing about whats best for this country. remember he is a devout muslam. And some of the people he has working for him have all said the same thing that anyone who believes in CHRIST is an idiot well we all know where he is going. This prez has said that what is needed in this country is a single religion i.e. a unified religion that sounds like a dictatorship to me, this guy has beed called a lot of different things including the new messiah and also by some in the media a king. I ask you whats wrong people these days. this guy is no king and he is no messiah he is the anti-Christ

        • Cameron

          Shades of Bro. Dave! It’s too bad the only time some people even utter God’s name is when they put a four-letter expletive tacked onto it.

    • HFlashman

      Hard to want to engage in a losing Arguement there Chip. Don’t blame you for avoiding one and not wanting to “man up”. But a standing invite .. anytime you want to take on a Moderate, let me know.

      In case anyone decides they want to know the correct history, a good beginning would be Marbury v Madison. That decided the role of the SCOTUS in government.

      Religion. Ok..so the State cannot discriminate against any particular religion. And it cannot establish any State approval of any certain reiiligion. It either has to be religion free…or, to abide by the Consitution, it must allow all religions identical access to State programs, etc. Good idea Chip…i’d love to see the Hare Krishnas etc having access to our tax monies and common property.

      State versus Federal. Weal argument Chip. Sur a State could require a XMas creche…and to allow all citizens the right to be freed of state sponsored religion…they would have to allow every religion identical access. Because by allowing or by decree forcing a certain religious more upon us, it is in effect establishing State recogition that one religion is more “correct’ than others.

      As it stands now, there will be a few posters here today spouting their line of brainwashing about there being only one “true God’ etc etc. Yep…and it would be such a good idea if we had that type of singular view forced down our throats.

      If a State decreed a XMas creche? Then the opposite is true. It could say all religious icons EXCEPT a XMas creche. Oops…not looking too good now is it?

      And let’s say for argument sake that somehow the christian cult becomes an approved state religion. Which sect is the one which is correct? Mormons? Methodists? Catholic? Lutheran? Church of Elvis? (BTW…I am not insulting christianity by calling it a cult. By definition christianity is a cult…look it up. It’s a commonly accepted “correct” cult, but by definition, any organized religion is a cult)

      • Randy

        Moderate? Snort! LOL! Here is where the incoherence of atheism becomes visible for all to see. So answer me this Flash:

        1. Where do rights come from if not from God? Be specific.
        2. Why must men respect the rights of others if there is no God? Give justification for your position

        Now I know full well that you either cannot or will not answer these questions which is why atheists are so scrupulous to avoid them. Be advised that I am well aware of the clever smoke and mirrors arguments of the atheist community and for the benefit of other readers I will expose that which I expect to flow from your pen. I fully expect you to come back with some patronizing nonsense about consensus but even then you will scrupulously avoid any discussion as to why we are morally obligated to respect “the consensus”. Next, I predict you will likely appeal to reason all the while begging the crucial question as to what reason is and why are men under a moral obligation to be reasonable and rational.

        Note to Judeo-Christan theists: You just have to keep asking guys like Flash for the foundation of their ethical position. Demand they provide a foundation, plumb their epistemology, explore their ethical claims, and get to the bottom of their worldview. When you get there you will find one of three creepy crawlies masquerading as foundational assumptions:

        1. They will retreat into nihilism and claim that all is meaningless. (even though they have been arguing for hours)

        2. The will say “its just the way it is” and retreat into world class question begging (color this H for hypocrisy).

        3. They will appeal to their own wants and desires as if they were somehow authoritative. (ie. in rejecting God they try to become one in their own right.)

        You have to watch guys like Flash and not let them get away with their cleaver deceit.

        • HFlashman

          1. Where do rights come from if not from God? Be specific.

          Who said there is no god, or gods, or if there existed a god? You may say it. That’s your RIGHT. Who says you are correct? How do you know you are correct? This isn’t about whether there exists any deity or not..it’s all about the Right of the individual to hol whatever belief they choose without a false one being foisted upon them…whether it be Christian, Islamic, Shinto etc.

          But, if you want my own personal belief…Rights are inherent in Man. They are observed and protected by society to whatever degree and level of social evolution that particular society finds itself.

          2. Why must men respect the rights of others if there is no God? Give justification for your position

          See answer to #1 above.

          LOL…you are so easy.

          • MNIce

            HFlashman, Randy was right – you ended up begging the question. You claim,”Rights are inherent in Man.” Which man? Who determines what rights are inherent? Who qualifies as “Man”? Are infants included if they haven’t been born yet? Jews? Christians? Blacks? Adherents of this ill-defined “inherent rights placed by no One” concept have at one time or another excluded or denigrated the rights of each of these groups. Or as Orwell famously lampooned the socialists in “Animal Farm”, “Everybody’s equal, but some are more equal than others.”

            The religion of Evolution/Atheism emphasizes differences – supposedly some are “more evolved” than others. In contrast, the American concept of equality and equal rights comes from Christianity, “For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.” (Galatians 3:27-28) Jefferson et al. intended to confer this principle of the Church to the whole of American society. The rights to life, liberty, and property are explicitly protected by God’s commands in the ancient Jewish laws (Leviticus and Deuteronomy, most famously in the Ten Commandments). Genesis 9:6 gives the reason for the existence of these rights, “Whoever sheds man’s blood,
            By man his blood shall be shed;
            For in the image of God
            He made man.”
            These concepts, through Christian influence, carried over to English Common Law and from there to American law as well. Thus these rights are not from some undefined and evanescent “inherent” principle, but come from an identifiable Source to Whom those who violate them must ultimately give answer.

            Now, if you look at this “separation of church and state” in its proper context, you would see that Jefferson and his compatriots intended to keep the state out of the church. They realized that people have various beliefs regarding their relationship to the Almighty, and did not want the state to coerce one belief over another, whether through direct compulsion or through church taxes. Men are answerable to God for these matters, and God does not command the State to control conscience, only behavior. That is why the Constitution bars government from requiring a religious test, and prohibits Congressional interference in the Church.

            It is no coincidence that as government increasingly teaches the dogma of Darwinian Evolution as fact rather than a philosophical interpretation, it more rapidly erodes the protections of our individual rights. Perhaps it’s time for a First Amendment lawsuit concerning this establishment of Atheism’s chief doctrine.

          • Al Sieber

            HFlashman, I thought the Founding Fathers were referring to the laws of “God and Nature”, and the beliefs and writings of John Locke.

          • Kinetic1

            MNIce,
            “These concepts, through Christian influence, carried over to English Common Law and from there to American law as well.”

            This idea is difficult to accept since common law was in existence long before Christianity. As Jefferson argued:

            “This settlement took place about the middle of the fifth century. But Christianity was not introduced till the seventh century; the conversion of the first christian king of the Heptarchy having taken place about the year 598, and that of the last about 686. Here then, was a space of two hundred years, during which the common law was in existence, and Christianity no part of it.”

            Also, Darwinian Evolution does nothing to dispute your religious theory, but is simply the “theory”of how organisms change over time. They do, just look around. God may be the cause, and that’s ok, but genes do evolve. OK, Darwinian Evolution may be an issue if you accept as literal the story of Adam and Eve, but beyond that… The issue for you should be abiogenesis, or the spontaneous origination of life. Though even that doesn’t preclude God. So what is your issue?

        • TGoodreau

          Thats Right Randy, anyone who doesn’t believe in god has no right to make any arguments whatsoever. I like how you assume that they cannot have any valid points and dismiss them out of hand because they may not believe as you do.
          Let me ask you, why does religous belief seem to preclude any real intellectual discussion.
          All I can think of is this little gem from my childhood sunday school lessons, “cause the bible tells me so” then I grew up!
          Listen, God is apparently letting us do this on our own, so why don’t you either join the real world and try to solve the real problems we mere mortals face instead of dividing all of us into believers and non-believers its very counter productive.

          • http://naver samurai

            Sounds like a lib atheist to me. God doesn’t want us to do everything on our own, he wants us to pray for help, guidance, wisdom, etc. We can’t acccomplish anything without the Lord our God and Jesus being there with us hand in hand. You said you grew up? Don’t sound like it to me.

          • Karolyn

            Religion, religion, religion! “The opiate of the masses.” It’s not about religion. It’s all about spirituality. We are all one and all a part of God. If we lived as were are meant to live, government wouldn’t even be necessary. There is so much dissension and hate and tragedy in the world because of the way we’ve all been taught by the people who came before, ad infinitum. Man was not made in sin. Adam and Eve gave us the opportunity to have free choice. God made us perfect just the way we are. All we have to do is truly KNOW whyo we really are.

      • Jay

        Moderate? That’s hilarious. People today don’t even know the meanings of words any more and deceive themselves into believe anything they want to. You are correct about the meaning of ‘cult’ which means a system of worship of a deity or deities. Liberalism is a cult as well where man has made himself the object of worship and veneration. Liberals love to take Christ out of Christmas as you did so repeatedly. The Liberals in Florida try every year to prevent the free excercise of religion by attempting to block displays of Christian Christmas scenes such as the Nativity scene or even a simple wooden cross as well as the displays of the Jewish faith. The LIBERALS are the ones violating the Constitution not the Christians and Jews who are trying to freely excercise their religious beliefs.
        That is OK though, because on Judgement Day God will settle it once and for all, whether you believe it or not.

        • Kinetic1

          Jay,
          Do you want to put cross on your lawn? GO for it! How about your church, your country club or your private school? Enjoy! It is only when Federally funded land ( a court house, a public school, a police station) comes into play that you are restricted. So what’s the problem here? Do we need a creche on every block?

          In my town we have 1sq mile of land and 3 creches. We have a “Holiday” display in front of the court house, though it’s clear that it is influenced by Christmas. I don’t know about Florida, but here in our little section of California no one complains about our displays. People use their lights to spell out their choice of greetings, crosses, stars, you name it and no one complains. People place all sorts of holiday displays, religious and not on their front lawns. No one cares (unless it keeps us up at night.)

          My neighbors are VERY conservative, I’m fairly Liberal. We used to attend the same church, but we had a falling out with the new minister. I help my neighbor, he helps me and we help the rest of town when needed. Christians, Jews, Agnostics and Atheists, who cares. These are our neighbors, Conservative and Liberal alike and we all work together. We have a Memorial day service in the town Cemetery as well. Prayers are given without issue and our scouts place flags on the graves of the soldiers. We don’t care what their religion was, nor do we care about the religion (or lack of) of our scouts. We believe in service to others, regardless of faith or political views. At Christmas time we like to come out for the Lighted Tractor Parade, ride and sing carols on the volunteer fire truck and decorate main street. If you have the 3 wise men in your store window, fine. How about a Menorah? No one is going to complain or protest your display of religion. This is a religious time of year and a time to rejoice, even if you only come to see the lighting of the Christmas tree and listen to the community choir sing carols. Those of us who are Christen know to be tolerant, and so do those of us who are not. This is how some of us liberals live. So next time you think you know all about how vile and and humanist we liberals are, how “Liberals love to take Christ out of Christmas” I suggest you sit down and re-read your Bible.

          And now a little joke for you,
          A man dies and while waiting in line at the pearly gates he hears a conversation between a man and Saint Peter
          “Your religion?”
          “Jewish.”
          “Welcome friend, 3rd hallway down, turn left and enter room 17. Please be VERY quiet when passing room 5.”
          As the line continues the man hears of many people and many religions, but they are all told the same thing: “Please be quiet when passing room 5.”
          When the man reaches Saint Peter he asks “what is the deal with room 5?”
          Saint Peter replies “Oh, that’s the (enter your church here). They think they’re alone here.”

      • Marc

        Very good ! I have always wondered who the ‘correct’ Christians were… Methodist, Evangelical, Catholic, on and on…. (and even those have their own splinter groups).

      • Cameron

        Moderate-noun; a PC way of saying “mug-wump”.
        Mug-wump-noun; a person who sits astride a fence with his mug on one side and his wump on the other, waiting to see which way the wind blows.

        • Karen

          Mug-wump! I love that definition! Maybe I’m one. What do you say? There was a time when conservatives were known for keeping their heads in the sand and not wanting anything to change. The liberals wanted change and progress. Then came the time when liberals wanted change no matter what and conservatives knew some of those changes were not good for the country. Today it seems that, for the most part, conservatives have a handle on things and liberals have gone off the deep end. However, there are still a few good libs out there and many good conseratives too. I’ll go with the ones who are closest to the moral standerds of law and order I embrace. Am I a christian? You bet. Do I feel all should believe as I do? Yes. Do I think that my beliefs should be rammed down someones throat? Noway!! God gave each of us the freedom to chose what we believe and the freedom to change our minds should we so choose. It is up to us for we are responsible for our choices and the consiquences of those choices. Are we responcible for our invironment? Yes. Are we responsible for our way of life? Yes. Are we responsible for our neighbor’s wellbeing? Emphatically so. Do we need guidence? Absolutely! Are we perfect? Not hardly. We, as christians, are just a human and anyone and make mistakes just as anyone. However, we are to ask for forgiveness as well as forgive others. We are not to depend on our own intelligence but on God for direction in our lives. Then we are to act on His instructions that LINE UP WITH HIS WORD, something too many forget to check out. We must take care of our nation, our land, our neighbors and our families. We must forgive if we are to be forgiven. We must lead by example not force. We must obey all laws that do not conflict with God’s word, and we must pray for out leadership and our nation.

      • slickporsche

        I did look it up (word removed), and it is not a cult and if anything Islam surely could be and should be considered a cult. Where are you? Have they denied you yard priviliges, and now you are using a computer to make yourself feel sane? I hope they do not let you out, as you are insane. Anyway here is the finger, third from the thumb.

      • http://donthaveone Beberoni

        Christianity is not a cult. It is the word used to describe the followers of the one true God, the Lord Jesus Christ. The Alpha and the Omega. Like it says in John 1:1. In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was God, and the Word was with God. Jesus is the Word. He was there at the beginning. He is God. He manifested Himself in the flesh and came down to earth as a lowly human. He greatly suffered for all of us, to do away with sin that man brought into the world when he disobeyed God and ate from the tree, the one thing he was told not to do. All other so called diety’s in other religions are all dead and buried in the ground, or are made of gold or wood or something that man made. Only Jesus Christ is alive and living. And the great thing is, is that He is the only God that has an appointment waiting for you and I, so that we may give an account of ourselves to Him. Im ready. Im rip roaring ready to be delivered out of this earth. But He says it isnt my time yet, but when it is, Im more than ready. Im eager to go. Are you ready? Because you are going to meet Him, face to face. I hope you are ready by then. Might be tomorrow, might be next year, might be 100 years. But you will bow down before Him and give an account of yourself.

    • http://donthaveone Beberoni

      There are more Christians in this country than anyone else. So going on your assumptions, we should have everything our way. At least that seemed to be the scope of your post. And a government without God, will become vile and perverted and will be handed over to a lesser enemy, just as was with the Greeks, the Romans and the Medo-Persian empires. And when we decide to follow the immoral liberals far enough, God will surely remove His hand from us also, and the United States will be no more. Thankfully, the majority of us are Christians and that hasnt happened yet. But it will in time. Us Christians are not doing our job spreading Gods word as we should. The church has been infiltrated by false Christians, and hippocrite false prophets in the pulpit across this great nation. The largest religious organization in the world, which I dont have to say who it is, has fallen away from their first love Jesus Christ, and is in love with its own doctrine and teachings. Thats why they tell their followers not to read the book of Revelation, as parts of it reveal them for who they are. But God’s own word in Revelation tells us that “blessed are we that read the words of this book”. Its a mess in societey today, and people blame it on Christians. But its not that. Its clearly written that the world is Satan’s playground. He is going to cause a lot of hate and discontent, and his whole passion is to turn the world against Christians, and to turn Christians against God. Thats it. Thats all he has to do before his butt gets thrown in the lake of fire. But it is a fact, that the more we remove God from this country, whether it be government, schools or business or everyday life, the farther down the drain we will go. And thats a fact no one can argue.

      • HFlashman

        Well…my gods disagree with your god. So whose god(s) is correct? I say mine are. Under your premise, if I smother the legislature with money and gelt and get the State to agree…where does that leave you?

        BTW…just how, exactly, do you know your God is even in existence? When you find out, I believe it will be more than a long distance phone call back here to tell anyone.

        Religion divides…that’s a fact. your post and mine are proof of that. You want THAT to be a central area of dissension tearing tis Nation apart?

        • EltonJ

          Have you seen the video on the Orgone Energy [ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sPV-JExUPns ], HFlashman? If not, you might want to check it out.

        • Don

          That is what FAITH means dude. Google it.

        • taxman

          love your enemy. God forgive HFlashman. One day you may find that God is all around and your eyes will be opened! I pray that when that happens you will be a strong force for love, hope and freedom.

          • Betty

            My ex said he wasn’t atheist, but agnostic. I don’t think there’s much difference. He died of lung cancer a few years ago. Strangely enough, before he died, he “needed to be baptized.’

          • http://?? Joe H.

            Taxman,
            My eyes have been opened for a LONG time. Look at a tree. Man can not manufacture one. he can grow one but only God decides if it grows or not. I look at my children each day and marvel at them. Of the three, they are as different as can be yet very alike. Man can not produce them with a guarantee, only God can do that! Even in test tubes, God decides if they form. My God exhists! My God lives!

        • sheldon

          Science flies men to the moon, religion flies men into buildings.

          • Betty

            Science – the tree of knowledge.

          • NorthernDave

            Yes Betty… Science, the Tree of Knowledge. You know s-c-i-e-n-c-e. It’s what gave us penicillin to save millions from infections and insulin which allows millions of diabetics to live. Science and knowledge have made your life much less labor intensive than your parents’ lives and your grand-parents’ lives. Or would you give it all up to live life in a cave, constantly hunting for food and fire?

          • Sheldon

            Be nice NDave, I believe it’s a biblical reference.

          • Marc

            Betty says:
            July 30, 2010 at 3:46 pm
            Science – the tree of knowledge.

            If ‘science’ is so bad…..why is Betty using a computer and the internet ?

          • http://www.SaveLakeAtitlan.org Duende

            Imagination and experience are what motivates both science and religion. Science today is supporting in many ways what most religious teachers have tried to teach at one time or another.. we are all one. No harm in that sentiment.

          • Anna

            Depends on what religion.
            Isaac Newton for instance was a great scientist, and a devout Christian.

        • kate8

          HFlashman, religion may often divide, but the Spirit of God in men’s hearts unites. We truly are all one, and just as disease cells threaten the life and health of the body, diseased thinking threatens the life and health of us as a whole.

          • http://www.SaveLakeAtitlan.org Duende

            Amen Kate.. and once one removes the diseased thinking from their own minds and hearts) then the oneness becomes apparent in others. Quite a task I say (still struggling with my own)

        • Coservative at Birth

          Divides us? That means you are my mortal enemy, and my firearms are loaded and ready. You are a Totalitarian Socialist who worships not God but Man.

          • Normal Guy

            You’re nuts

          • http://www.savelakeatitlan.org Duende

            He is not your mortal enemy. You are your own mortal enemy with angry thoughts like that. It’s that type of thinking that keeps man from the loving grace of god… the grace that we were created in the image of. The rare few are willing to challenge their own limiting and fear/anger filled belief systems enough to be able to witness it for even a moment, never mind live in it. Jesus was trying to free us up so that we could experience God.. one on one with out intermediaries (that’s why the rabies wanted him out of the picture.. bad for business). Now look what they (including so called Christian churches) have done to his song…..

        • http://naver samurai

          I challenge you trashman, I challenge you to put down here who your god is. I know it’s not the real one!

      • Marc

        http://www.adherents.com/rel_USA.html#families

        seems the majority of Christians are Catholic in the USA… so they are the ones that are ‘right’ and we should be following their lead?

        • http://jorind@gmail.com Zackery

          Sorry to burst your bubble amigo but, if you add up all the other Christian religions in the U.S. they far outnumber the Catholics.
          Have a nice life…
          Zack

          • kate8

            Religion is of absolutely no use if one cannot see the One to Whom it should point. Religion is not an end in and of itself. When it becomes an obstacle rather than a vehicle, it should be abandoned.

          • Marc

            Ahhh……but they separate organizations, are they not? Do the Mormons believe what the Methodists do ? The Jehovah’s Witnesses and the Baptists ? They are each different ‘types’ of Christianity.
            If the can’t agree with each other, who is right?

          • kate8

            Marc, Only God is right.

            Just as we were created in God’s image, man tends to create his god in his own image, according to his interpretation of who he wants God to be.

            It is when we become willing to let go of everything we’ve ever been taught or believed, and open our hearts to Him, that the journey toward knowing Him begins.

          • http://?? Joe H.

            Kate8,
            Very well put!! I only wish these libbies could know God!

        • Cameron

          God instructed Man to worship Him and no other, but He didn’t say HOW to worship him. That’s up to us. None of us knows if our way is “right” or not, so none of us can tell another Christian his way is wrong.

          • kate8

            Cameron, Yes, God says to worship Him and no other…

            It does seem that many have fallen into placing their religion, their particular church and its doctrine, before God Himself. This would make even such fealty to one’s church, placing another before God.

            God does not tell us how to worship Him, although He gives us guidelines. Somehow I don’t think that multitudes of bickering doctrines is what He meant. I think that was Satan’s work, to divide God’s people and cause them to stumble…

      • http://kd6vkj@yahoo.com Saul

        Being that I am a member of the Church of Jesus Christ OF latter Day Saints (thats is the Mormon Church for those of you who don’t know) We do believe in God and we do pray in the name of Christ Jesus. This government if you listen close to what they say you Probably wont believe your ears when pelosi was asked if she belives in God she said who that and what party in he in. she is part of the anti-Christ crowd and needs to be removed from office along with all the others. This Country was founded on Christian pricipals and ethics Without God in this country it will be condemend just like Sodom and Gomorrah and then probably destroyed the same way.

        • Marc
          • Cameron

            Obviously not a PRACTICING Catholic.

          • http://?? Joe H.

            marc,
            Obviously she is not a true believer if she asks who God is and what party he is of!!!

          • Kinetic1

            Saul,
            Religion and belief are not a requirement or a yard stick for our politicians. If you have a problem with this, talk to the founders who made it so. As for Speaker Pelosi’s answer, clearly she was a) deflecting an inappropriate question that was bound to be more about her personal life than her political views and intentions (inappropriate for the reason noted above) and b) joking. If you are so deeply indoctrinated that you can’t accept a joke involving God, well God help you.

      • slickporsche

        Actually Beberoni,You have all lost the battle, and lost your republic! It is gone! You are however entering a new phase in human history that is a repeat of another time. Can you comprehend that? You are witnessing the death of a once great nation, and the birth of a sorry piece of S–T. Good luck with your new turd. I should have said we and our, because this includes me.

        If you want it back, it may not be too late, and you know what needs to be done. I do not mean voting, as that is trust in the government, and that we should not have. That is what got us here.

        • Normal Guy

          Slickporsche

          Treasonous,rightwing Nazi zealot. Just as dangerous to this great nation as Muslim terrorists. Burn in…

          I hope someone is moinitoring this site and hunts you down.

          • kate8

            Normal (?), you really seem like a nasty, venomous, hateful soul. Your life must be really small and miserable for you to be filled with such bile.

            Don’t you see that this is the kind of evil that divides us? Perhaps you would wish that all with whom you disagree would just die. That would be my impression of how you see us. But then, who would you all be able to vent your hatefulness on? You’d all turn on each other! Because love is not in you.

          • Normal Guy

            Kate

            You say you are a kind soul and yet you participate in this right wing extreme blog and think these zealots are nice folk. If you want to spend time in the sewer expect to get a little crap on you. This blog is definitley the sewer of political thought.

            If you think that the idiots on this site that advocate overthrowing the government using violence are anything but vile and should not burn in… for there position of violence…

            Then all I have to say to you is lie down with dogs, get up with fleas.

          • kate8

            Normal, I have never said I was a kind soul. I am who I am.

            If you regard this site as a sewer, why are you spending so much time here? Are you covered with cr*p an fleas? My guess is yes, but not from here.

            99% of the hateful rhetoric I see here comes from your side. Wanting to overthrow a government that is against the people and against God is not hateful, it is necessary. Even mandatory, for the good of all. No government that seeks to take away liberty and property is worthy of existence, and those who would remove it are courageous an patriotic.

            We do see things very differently, but I wish you no harm. I do, however, think that your way of thinking is destructive, as are those whom you support as leaders. I would pray that God would remove the blinders from your eyes. If that is not possible, then He will sort it all out and you will be removed, along with all who seek to enslave others and serve evil.

          • http://naver samurai

            Normal guy? No, abnormal guy. You and your lib, dem, commie, atheist friend sound more like that NAZI’s than we do. You you even know what the NAZI party stood for? Read your history before you post, moron!

        • http://donthaveone Beberoni

          Sorry to inform you slickporsche, I have not lost the battle. I fight the good fight, and I know who is, and who isnt. And I know that God is in control, not the republicans, not the democrats, not the libertarians. God is in control. He gives us free will to mess up like we have, but when needs be, He will put his foot down, and Jesus will come to reign forever in peace. But weve got to go through this to get there. There are still a lot of people that need saved, and He wont come until everyone has had a chance to hear about Him. And they will all get their chance.

          • http://naver samurai

            Hoooorraaaaaah!

      • coal miner

        Beb,

        Don’t other people have the same rights as so called Christians? They are after all are tax payers too.No religions or prayers should be promoted in public schools.That is a private matter.Right?

        • http://donthaveone Beberoni

          I didnt say anything about promoting it did I? I dont recall saying that. I did says schools are a mess since they kicked Him out, and if you disagree with that, I guess the truth is not in you. The facts speak for themselves on that.

    • Francesca

      Jefferson’s wisdom was astounding. These quotes portray what liberal and progressive used to represent, which was growing in ways that We the people deemed necessary, for the betterment of our country, while steadily and reverantly maintaining the dignity and integrity of the Constitution. The decisions made by our great Founding Fathers were alway reflective of their belief in doing things for the betterment of the nation. Somehow the voices of a few have been able to radically change the way these docs were intended. Our compassionate nature is being used against us.

      • slickporsche

        Francesca liberalizm is like cancer, it grows until it kills you. We are now whitnesing that death. I don’t know if the body can be saved at this point.

    • Pathfinder

      NO!! Abnormal Guy: Jefferson does not disagree; YOU do. His letter to the Danbury Baptists never intended the prohibitions against the free exercise of religion that the courts have, unlawfully, undertaken. In fact, it is you, and those who agree with you, that have been working to establish an official religion for these united states, namely the religion of secular humanism. Your attempts to supress traditional Christianity are the true violation of the constitution. And in so doing, it is you who violate the intent of Jefferson’s letter to the Danbury Baptists.

      • coal miner

        Thomas Jefferson was a man of deep religious conviction — his conviction was that religion was a very personal matter, one which the government had no business getting involved in. He was vilified by his political opponents for his role in the passage of the 1786 Virginia Statute for Religious Freedom and for his criticism of such biblical events as the Great Flood and the theological age of the Earth. As president, he discontinued the practice started by his predecessors George Washington and John Adams of proclaiming days of fasting and thanksgiving. He was a staunch believer in the separation of church and state.

    • TyRockwell

      NormalGuy,

      You have attempted to justify lawmakers’ and courts’ going beyong their Constitutional limits. Jefferson and the other Founders anticipated a need to change the Constitution in the future, and established a necessarily and proper method of doing so. It is called the Constitutional Amendment. It is a process quite different from the ones too often deceptively employed, which is law-making by the judiciary, and by Congress and by the president through “Executive Orders” that violate the rights and limits already established in the Constitution which only the People can change. We need to ask candidates if they will uphold the Constitution against these kinds of over-reach by Congress and the Courts and the Executive branch, including the Departments and the Agencies.

      • slickporsche

        Do you mean that you still trust and believe what they tell you. If so, you are a real sucker for the politicians.

    • Abby

      Yes the constitution can be amended…by the people (not the courts, not even the congress); but until then, the current constitution is supreme law of the land and cannot be trampled upon by anyone.

      • DaveH

        Right on the money, Abby.
        Any reference made by Jefferson to changing the Constitution involves changing it the legal way, not the way Normal Liberal wants it to be changed (by unelected Supreme Court Justices). That would be a certain path to tyranny.
        The Constitution is not a “Living Document” in the sense that Liberals use that phrase. And we must be vigilant to screen out any Supreme Court candidates who think it should be.
        This is the only Constitutional way to change the Constitution:
        http://www.cato.org/pubs/constitution/article5_en.html

        • kate8

          DaveH, Abby, And as such, we cannot be bound by all these laws that violate our Constitution. Congress, POTUS and SCOTUS are the criminals here!

          We need a movement en masse to reclaim our unalienable rights. We need to stand up by the MILLIONS and say NO to all this diabolical evil being forced upon us. What’s more, we need to say HELL NO to these laws and refuse to comply! If only a few do this, they will go to jail and that’s that. We need to unite against this, defy this evil that grips the nation, and grind this beast to a halt.

          Stop buying from global corporations. Take our money out of global banks. Stop playing their game!

        • slickporsche

          Can you not see that your method has already failed, and will continue to do so????? Wow Its hard to believe people are so dumbed down by government.

          • kate8

            Are you talkin’ to me, slick?

            That is the kind of thing that the left puts out to despirit us.

            What you forget is, we still have an Ace in the Hole.

      • http://www.SaveLakeAtitlan.org Duende

        Well it seems like Bush not only trampled it, he ran a bulldozer through it.. and Obama’s ready to pave it over for easier access. Oh my.. a Republican and then a Democrat?.. uh oh…I’m starting to smell a rat here :-) all you who are screaming about Obama and can’t raise their voices as loudly over Bush and Cheney are probably muffling their voices because their heads a firmly up their….. (you fill in the blanks). Now don’t you go worrying over those other people not shouting loud enough about Obama.. where they have their heads is their problem (and maybe they’ll start to pull their heads out a bit if they hear your voice concerning Bush.

        • slickporsche

          Do you know the connection between JFK, and Bush Sr.? Do some research its pretty scary stuff and revealing.

          • http://www.savelakeatitlan.org Duende

            Meaning that Bush had a hand in the assassination? (I just googled it :-) That wouldn’t be a surprise at all.

          • kate8

            I read that the elder Bush was in town (Dallas) that day, among several others.

    • http://-- jenn Webster

      Of course the constitution can be changed with the times. That’s why we have a process for amending it. This is far more in line with the founders’s vision as any administation that proports to speak for the people and “make things up” as they go along. As far as Jefferson’s writings, he is again talking about what many in his time were familiar with-the State using its power to force a specific religion upon it’s people through laws and consequences (As the Church of England or Rome under Constantine making Christianity the “official” religion of the Roman Enpire. This was what the founders wanted to avoid, and rightly so. It is a far cry from a volantary prayer at a civil cerimony. Furthermore, the constitution clearly prohibits only the Federal government from instituting religion for the whole country. It did not prohibit the states from doing so-and as a matter of fact, several of the early states did support certain religions including support of churches. So, this latest outcry from “Living document” proponants, is misguided and, ironically, relays on writings not in the beautiful and carefully worded “living” Constitution-but writings that they curiously deem to be sacrosanct and “non living”. It’s a joke. If people are going to intrepret “wall of separation” so narrowly, (it is a brick wall!!!!)why are they inconsistent as they interpret “freedom of speech” so broadly referring to art, books, magazines and things other than speaking from the mouth? So, which way is it, gentlemen? By the way, (Wasn’t is Paul of “Tarsus”? not Paul of “Taurus”?

      • Cameron

        The Liberals’ idea of interpreting the Constitution is sorta like what used to happen (down South at least and maybe everywhere else as well) when a group of black men got together to play cards. The rules changed while the dealer was dealing, usually to the benefit of the dealer.

        • Cameron

          By the way, before anyone jumps on this as “racist”, it is simply an observation of how things were, and may still be but I no longer gamble so things MAY have changed, I don’t know or care.

    • American Citizen

      Normal Guy, the government power and false interpretations by the courts are suppressing religious freedoms. The government is to make no laws respecting religion period. Religious groups only try to make the government adhere to the Constitution.

      • sheldon

        Dr. James Dobson certainly tried to force his religious beliefs on US government policies over the past decade.

        • MNIce

          This is news to me. I never heard of Dr. Dobson threatening a government official. Can you give an instance? I know he spoke to his radio audience a number of times about various government-related issues, such as the failure of the Clinton administration to enforce laws against the interstate promulgation of child pornography, but beyond suggesting that people contact their state or congressional representatives, I know of no action on his part to “force” his views on any government.

    • George McM

      Normal Guy (NOT), I suggest you read the Federalist Papers to know exactly what the Constitution means. They were published in every major newspaper (and most others) plus printed and handed out so that every American had the opportunity to understand what was about to be voted on. The Constitution had to be approved by every State and it was after all Americans studied what it meant for years. The Constitution has never been a “living” document that can be violated because the wording can be bent to new meanings of those words. i.e. the current use of the word “welfare” did not appear in the dictionary until 1968. But, there is a way to change the Constitution – amendments are the only way and every State must approve. All 3 branches of government are guilty of “interpreting” the Constitution. The very act is unconstitutional and any laws coming from interpretation must be nullified. It is our job as citizens to insure that they are by forcing our representatives to do their jobs or lose them.

    • alpha-lemming

      Nicely done and reasonable….. UNTIL Government BECOMES the religion. They HAVE the power to force their views on people of other faiths and/or of no faith. Which they do every day, and if you disagree…. talk about an Inqusition… may God.. er uh Government have mercy on us all!! The Constitution is a “living document” only in so far as the amendment process allows which has been done many times… quite successfully. But wholesale changes??? That’s how cancer works and its’ wonderful track record has touched, I’m sure, nearly everyone in this audience in one way or another.

      I’ll end my little screed in anticipation of the atheists that will SURELY have something to say to this article. This is a political blog, and in a perfect world, ideas will be exchanged and hopefully some kind of consensus/common ground can be found. Stipulating that God is synonymous with good, altruism, charity, kindness etc. when you’re an atheist, your ONLY defensable position for argument is…. There is no person or group of people, no circumstance, no occurance, no situation or scenario, no THING in all the universe that is any more important than ME!! That being said…. we will NEVER have any common ground on which to form consensus because I don’t think YOU are the most important thing in the universe.

      • Cameron

        Islam IS the government in Middle Eastern countries. There is no freedom of religion or anything else in those countries. Christianity is the only religion that tolerates others. Mark Twain reputedly observed “Man in the only animal that has religion so other animals can’t go to Heaven. Man is the only animal with the TRUE religion, several of them! There’s more to it, but I’ve made my point for now.

    • DaveH

      Jefferson also said this:
      “I think we have more machinery of government than is necessary, too many parasites living on the labor of the industrious”.

      and this:
      “The natural progress of things is for liberty to yield and government to gain ground”.

      and this:
      “Most bad government has grown out of too much government”.

      and this:
      “I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them”.

      and this:
      “…the Federal Judiciary; an irresponsible body (for impeachment is scarcely a scarecrow), working like gravity by night and by day, gaining a little today and a little tomorrow, and advancing its noiseless step like a thief, over the field of jurisdiction, until all shall be usurped from the States, and the government of all be consolidated into one. When all government… in little as in great things, shall be drawn to Washington as the centre of all power, it will render powerless the checks provided of one government on another and will become as venal and oppressive as the government from which we separated. (1821)

      and this (my favorite):
      “The two enemies of the people are criminals and government, so let us tie the second down with the chains of the Constitution so the second will not become the legalized version of the first”.

      • Pathfinder

        Thank you, Dave, a great group of quotes IMO.

      • http://?? Joe H.

        DaveH,
        I can always count on you to say what I am thinking on our founders!!! Great post!!

    • Don

      Thanks for trying to twist a great American’s views with your warped liberal perspectives. Regardless of who whether the Constitution is a “living document” or established law, there is a legal way to change it. It is called a constitutional ammendment. We have thousands of men and women wearing military uniforms who have sworn to “…support and defend the Consitution of the United States against all enemies foreign and domestic…” and they take their oath seriously…willing to pay with their lives. Likewise our elected officials and our judges have sworn to the same oath but are willing to sell their oath for a vote from those who have no clue what the Constitution says. I would suggest you read it and then decide how to make it “living”. It is the law of the land until it is legally ammended and neither the President or the Supreme Court have the right or authority to do that.

    • Ted Crawford

      An accurate and adaquate representation of one of Thomas Jeffersons core beliefs! An additional and equally adaquate repersentation can be found in the Constitution itself!! In order to facilitate that belief Artical 5 was included in The Constitution! The intent of that artical seems clearly to be to keep it a relevant, and “living” document!
      Whenever now or in the future it should be found inadaquate to our society it should, as it has been 27 times in the past, be refreshed. The current batch of progressives and liberals find that too restrictive so they just “deem” it to be changed, either by Executive Order, or congressional action! That was clearly, NOT the intent of Jefferson or The Founding Fathers!!

      • DaveH

        Ted,
        You may already know this, but from your comment it doesn’t appear so.
        The phrase “living document” is used in the sense that the Federal Judges (particularly the Supreme Court) should be able to interpret the Constitution not based on its original intent, but rather based on their feelings on how it should apply to modern society. So, for instance, if the judges feel that there is no longer a need for the right to bear arms they may ignore the 2nd Amendment under the meaning of “living document”. This line of reasoning is also referred to as “judicial activism”.

        • Bruce D.

          Dave H:
          Nice! Clear and concise. I will e-mail to my friends. I am sure you will not mind.

    • Pathfinder

      Abnormal Guy: I want also to point out that the constitution is not a “living document” in the sense that you use the term. I would hate to have a living mortgage like that. The bank could up my payments at will. In fact the very purpose of having a written document is to prevent changes occuring on a whim.

      However, I would not contend that the constitution was intended to remain compleately immutable and unchanged throught all time. If it was not to change at all; then there would be no amendment procedure.
      And this gets to the heart of my objection to the “living document” arguement. There IS an amendment procedure AND that very procedure is being ignored and circumvented. If some genuine need does arise; then it is the amendment procedure which should be used. Once you circumvent the amendment procedure; you may just as well tear up the document and throw it away. You have just migrated from the rule of law to the rule of man, where the whims of nine black robed tyrants is substituted for legitimate will of the majority.

      In addition, our founders gave us a REPUBLIC and not a DEMOCRACY because they studied history and knew of the problems democracy causes. The majority MUST be restrained from trampeling the rights of the minority (especially that minority known as the individual). A perfect example of democracy in action is a lynch mob. I will remind you of Jefferson’s other famous writing, the unanimous declaration of independance; “Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient Causes; and accordingly all Experience hath shewn, that Mankind are more disposed to suffer, while Evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the Forms to which they are accustomed.”

      Thus I must reject your “living document” assertion and your apparent subscription to unbrideled democracy.

      Rather let me propose that, when changes are necessary to the constitution, let amendments be proposed and ratified by the states. (As a side note, one of my favorites is ninth amendment followed closely by the thirteenth amendment.) In addition, let us retain a limited, constitutional, republic rather than an unbrideled democracy.

      • DaveH

        Liberals don’t want to change the Constitution the legal way because they know that wouldn’t be possible for most of their crap legislative ideas.

    • Wanda Murline

      Last night I read documentation about The Thirteenth Amendment. Most of the newer versions do not print it and I know why. But the 13th Amendment was ratified and is part of the Constitution. What is states is that lawyers who are part of the BAR are not eligible to hold an office in the Federal Government. I have not finished the entire document, but it is most intersting since the Demorats are a party of lawyers…and this is one reason we are in such a mess and why they write the bills that you have to take a class to understand.

    • Carolina Mom

      Normal Guy, Your Thomas Jefferson quotes certainly seem to support your decision, but you are assuming that your readers do not understand the literary methods used by our founding fathers. You see your quotes are mostly out of context. Back in those days, people did not have to be so very careful to say “this is what the opposition says” before every sebntence in order to not be mis-characterized as we are today. Therefore they were able to state the opposition’s arguments up front, and then systematically tear them apart in the following paragraphs. Nice try, though. You just don’t have the luxury of new-age, illiterates on this forum. You actually have to try and argue with intelligent, educated people here. Too bad!

      • DaveH

        It really wouldn’t matter what Jefferson said. He is not the Constitution. Normal Liberal will clutch at any straws in sight to promote his Liberal Misinformation.

    • WarriorH

      Van Jones.

    • JM

      It would take an Constsitutional ammendment to override the 1st ammendment. It takes 2/3 of the states to approve that ammendment. That is not likely to happen. Tens of millions would never be enough when it would take many more than a majority to make the change.

    • DougH

      Hey Normal Guy:

      The last time I checked Thomas Jefferson was not one of the 39 delegates who signed the Constitution.

      Even if he was one of the framers, his opinions still can’t be included in the Constitution unless they happen to be an ammendment.

    • John

      I find it interesting that you claim that Jefferson was talking about a “Living Document” In each case that I read in your excerpts Jefferson specifically stated that you had to “Change the constitution” It does not flow with the tides of change, if your country changes, and new things arise, then change the constitution to fit your circumstances… Read them closely

      - “Nothing then is unchangeable”
      It does not say it changes on its own, just that you can change it…

      - “we shall be sure to cure the evils of our new Constitution”
      Obviously he was not referring to the entire document, otherwise he would have called the Constitution Evil, he was pertaining to certain parts, otherwise he would have been calling for a new constitution. A CURE is not a OVERHAUL, but a tweak of something to make it better, unfortunately Obama does not understand this little thing. Ultimately congress was inclined to include the Amendments, which happened AFTER the date of 1788 that you had listed. The “Bill of Rights” was proposed to congress on September 25, 1789, which was the first 10 amendments.

      - “Some men look at constitutions with sanctimonious reverence and deem them like the ark of the covenant, too sacred to be touched.”
      - So he thinks Amendments are a good thing… your point is? I see no correlation to a “Living document” He CLEARLY states that the constitution can be touched and should not be considered like the “Ark of the covenant” as you would die if you touched it… will not go into that here.

      1813. ME 13:254 is an interesting quote as it has 6 added words to the text… Lets give this a whirl from your first statement “Jefferson disagrees [not] with you, the constitution must [not] be a living document, it must [not] be refective of its time. Tendsof millions of Americans the majority disagree with you..” Who are Tendsof? anyways… If you say “Tens of” I would understand, but if your going there we have 30 million uninsured Americans in this country, and something along those lines of illegal immigrants… There are your tens of Millions, a minority should never rule the majority at the demise of the majority… Just because a small percentage things wrongly does not make it right.

      “Those who reformation of institutions pari passu with the progress of science that no definite limits be assigned to that progress. The enemies of reform, on the other hand, improvement and steady adherence to the principles, practices and institutions of our fathers, which they as the consummation of wisdom and acme of excellence, beyond which the human mind could never advance.

      Pari Passu is Latin for “Equal footstep”

      Some things in this statement by Jefferson should be clarified. Science was instituted by the Christian church to actually learn how God had his hand into how the world was made. At this point in time when this was written, that was still the case. Unlike today where Science and religion have this appearance to be separated.

      … unfortunately I just cant spend any more time on this today.

      Obviously you have a list of statements that really do not defend your claims, rather dismiss the notion that the document is “Living” your statements are 1)taken out of context, 2)misunderstood by language from the past, 3)misinterpreted, and 4) amended or added to in order to make a point.

      In short, your argument does not rise to the height of a hill of wet beans.

    • http://donthaveone Beberoni

      But your prostituting what he said. He didnt say prosecute Christians who put up a cross on the lawn? He didnt say take “One nation under God” out of the pledge of allegiance. He didnt say take prayer out of the schools, in fact I know for a fact they wanted prayer in schools. Look back at them. Its a fact. What the whole thing says, if you are at all interested in the truth, is that the government will not FORCE you to practice a certain kind of religion. Thats it, bottom line. Thats why they came here, to worship freely and not under the restraints the British were putting on them and forceing on them. For my courthouse to put a cross on its lawn in downtown over Christmas time, is not forcing anyone to worship anyway at all. But people like you seem to prostitute the truth and interpret it that way. You want to tell kids in schools they cant have Bible studies, yet there are classes on reading the Koran at some schools. There is tolerance training everywhere, saying we should be tolerant of people who strap bombs to the back of their 6 year old daughter and walk her into a mall and blow everyone up. But dont you dare mention the name of that Jesus guys, He is dangerous. Come on man, give me a break. Wake up and smell the roses. There is a Jesus Christ, and He is alive and well, and I sure wish I could be a fly on the wall and observe when the liberals that kicked His name out of everywhere, are brought in one by one to be held accountable for their actions, as I and everyone else will be. That would be sweet, but then, you see, thats my sin. I would love to see it just to see the revenge, part of my human sinful nature. Vengeance is my says the Lord, and He will take it. Good luck with your stand against Him on that day.

      • sheldon

        You talk about facts? Of course Jefferson never talked about “One nation under God” because it wasn’t ADDED to the Pledge of Allegiance until the 1950s! Jefferson had been DEAD for over 125 years before the Pledge of Allegiance was “amended” and the religious reference was added!
        The only British constraints were “taxation WITHOUT representation”, few people emigrated from the UK based on religious persecution. There are two basic facts you’ve gotten absolutely wrong and I haven’t even finished reading your post.

        • MNIce

          (Sigh) Did you sleep through grade school history? “Everybody” knows the folks who moved to Plymouth, Massachusetts in 1620 originally left England because they faced persecution for their religious beliefs. They first emigrated to the Netherlands, but found the society there was too libertine and was corrupting their children, so they decided to sail to the “new world.” Look it up, Sheldon. Mayflower, Pilgrims, Plymouth Rock, Puritans… You might also research the fate of William Tyndale and others in the 16th century who thought people should be able to read the Bible in English or questioned the Catholic doctrine of transubstantiation. It’s not happy reading for the squeamish.

          • Sheldon

            (Yawn) MNIce… did you sleep through Language class in grade school? I said FEW people emigrated from ENGLAND due to religious persecution. The Mayflower IS a FEW. By the way, William Tyndale died in 1536… long before people colonists were arriving in North America (so what’s Tyndale got to do with anything???) and he was persecuted by the both the Church of England AND the Catholic Church. Translating the Bible would erode the clergy’s control over the masses, which is what organized religion is all about… control. In addition to language class, you should have paid closer attention to history class too; you have a tenuous grasp on it as well.

      • kate8

        Schools were originally set up so that everyone would be able to read the Bible.

        • http://naver samurai

          “Religion, morals, and ethics shall be taught in American schools from now, till evermore…” Northwest Ordinance of 1787. Signed by George Washington.

      • slickporsche

        Well Beberoni, I would surly like to be the fly on the wall next to you, as it would be a real treat to watch it all going down, and listen to the liberals as the beg, and beg, and beg, all for naught.It is scary to think it may be in our lifetime.

    • kate8

      Try plaing any game or functioning in any organization where the rules are always changing and open to interpretation, and just see how that works for ya.

      Oh wait. That is what we’re doing now.

      I rest my case.

      • kate8

        playing

    • http://ahalbert@smart-technology.net Allan

      Nowhere in the Constitution does it say that courts or other government agencies can make adjustments via case law or policies. Nowhere does Jefferson say that or that the amendment process is inadequate.

    • tnmccoy

      Normal Guy, that’s all very interesting. But to be precise, you Liberals—as loud and active as you are—are still not in the majority. You never have been, and God willing, you never will be. If you want a living Constitution, Jefferson and the other founding fathers provided a process to insure it: amending it. And the restrictions on amending are there so that crazies like you can’t willy-nilly change basic tenets of the document and how it serves a nation.

    • dan of arizona

      This seems to be the problem today,just change it to fit our needs and we will make it better.sorry i cant buy into that one.

    • http://naver samurai

      Very informative but, it what you are saying is true, then why did he sign everything with: “In the Year of Our Lord?”

    • joe_k

      Normal Guy,

      There is no question in the mind of a constitutional conservative that we the people have always had and do maintain the right to alter our laws, even our government. This is one of the unchangeable but inherent and unalienable rights of man.” –Thomas Jefferson to John Cartwright, 1824. ME 16:48 As quoted by yourself above.

      The question is “How do we make those changes”

      To a liberal, change is simple:

      1) “Repeat the same lie over and over, for generation if necessary, until a new generation arises that holds that lie to be truth”

      2) Denigrate the foundation of the nation by misrepresenting the intentions, the integrity, the virtue of it’s founders.

      3) By any and all means, misuse, subvert, misrepresent the established constitution to the point that to do so becomes acceptable, or at least, unstoppable by the citizenry.

      4) Ignore the separation of powers built into that constitution for the protection of freedom.

      5) What you cannot pass in congress because it opposes the will of the people, make law through the judicial branch, which is a violation of that constitution.

      6) Failing the establishment of new laws by constitutionally correct means, the congress, mandate law by usurping the authority of the people through an elitist judicial system.

      7) Finally, once you have subverted the will of the people to the point that they can no longer resist, mandate law by use of executive authority, judicial fiat and congressional arrogance.

      That law may be changed is not in question. The means by which it is changes is, and must always be in question to a free people.

      But then, Chip is right: It is pretty much a waste of time to try and argue with arrogant, leftist, elitists who are convinced in their own minds that the people are, and of right ought to be, controlled by them.

  • Viktor Leben

    Normal Guy,

    Very good comment ! Thought provoking ! These quotes pertain to the reasoning to change a law. It might be reasonable to change a law, but you have to go through some type of process. Chip points out that the present Constitutional law states the supremacy of Congress to make the laws (of course with certain constitutional limitations !)…..

    This goes back to Aristotle’s “Rhetoric to Alexander” that a monarch commands by his own reason. The President and the Supreme Court are now the equivalent to a Monarch…. They have their own reasons and command us to obey … their command in practice has the force of law.

    The Constitution is dead. It is not a living breathing document, instead it has been killed by the Executive and the Judicial branches. Congressional authority has been nullified.

    As for the separation of church and state … American jurisprudence is Theistic. This isn’t France….
    You should quote the Declaration of Independence ( another dead document, thank you UN !).
    Jefferson made it very clear – rights are from God, they are not given by a Monarch… rights are not given and taken by the President or Supreme Court (as they are today….) ..

    I present to you the corpse, dead by trampling, please don’t tell us it’s a living document.

    • http://donthaveone Beberoni

      I dont believe it is dead, I believe it is being put aside by men with interests of their own, who think themselves superior to those that wrote the Constitution. They are not. It is a mess, because lawyers and judges have prostituted so many things concerning laws and the constitution, and hold cases to previous established things in other cases. Its a joke. I dont know how some, now not all, but most lawyers and judges, how they can sleep at night. How can a lawyer sit there and take all that money and let a cold blooded murdered like OJ Simpson walk out a free man? How do they show up in a divorce, and the woman cheated on the husband and walked out, then they give her the kids and make him pay her child support for 15 years. The cause of a lot of grief in this country is lawyers, who have it set up to pay them for everything, and now they are the congressman, and senators and governors and president, and its such an ugly mess. And then you add that 90 percent of them, hold money as their god, instead of God as God, and there is the whole source of the problem. And anybody that knows God, knows this is true.

      • American Citizen

        Woo, hoo, right on Bebe.

      • http://naver samurai

        I second that motion!

    • slickporsche

      Wow! A very intelligent observation and post. You are very correct.

  • s c

    Withou a doubt, pouring urine out of a boot is more enjoyable than trying to reason with someone of the liberal/’Dem’/progressive persuasion. Proof of that occurs almost every day.

    • Al Sieber

      I can see that here. you’re right.

      • dan of arizona

        wish i had said that

  • http://GOOGLE JHSUNBUM

    JHSUNBUM
    RUNNING FOR PRESIDENT
    If I miss anything – let me know OH’ I KNOW SEND MONEY !!! (sure fat chance)
    DAGNEY & FEDUINNC I changed this just for you guys
    How about this for a platform.

    Will you vote for me. – I know I won’t get the communist
    vote, If i do, you can stick the job.

    # 1 the laws on immigration are fair in this country. If you don’t like them you are free to change them. If someone breaks the law, they should be punished, not just sent back home, no exceptions. If you think about it; this is fair to all. A fair law that protects us, is a good law. These people cost the entire country BILLIONS each year this, certainly, is not fair. Check the laws in the other country’s if you don’t think our laws are bad. I do not believe in immigration reform at this time. Round up all the illegals and get them out of here first. Then, if we really need reform, we can work on it with no pressure.
    the politicians claim the jobs these people are taking are jobs that Americans don’t want. MORE BULL! After we send these illegals home. Cut off welfare. You may need to increase the police force for a time, but; I don’t think so. The police we had on duty because of the illegals may be enough. We will have a number of people that will not like working after being on welfare so long. Send em to AZ. Sheriff Joe will have a lot of empty tents at that time.
    After all this, and we have no welfare and no unemployment; we open the borders, for (work permit) people. Did I say anything about the people who hire illegals. This is also against the law and I will crack down on them – hard…
    I would rather have those people anyway – They are GREAT HARD WORKERS.
    It just may be, our workers can learn from them, than; we have some competition.
    Also :I do not think that, just because your people came to this country and you are born here, you shouldn’t automatically be rewarded citizenship. however; it’s the law!! Either we obey the law, or; work to change it.

    # 2 Bring our troops home, from all over the world, including the war zone. If the politicians are not going to let us win; what’s the point of getting troops killed. Now, if
    the politicians want to take their families over and do the fighting; I’m all for that.

    If these countries need someone to help with our enemies; we can rent them an army
    However; it will not be cheep. We will rent them a volunteer army including officers, and equipment. All equipment lost will be replaced at wars end – and no politicians involved. This will give us a chance of winning. These solders will not work cheep.

    # 3 Most of the troops returned will be placed on our borders This will not cost us one red cent. We are now paying BILLIONS to keep them in all these other countries
    These are countries that don’t like us. Some even hate us, and want us destroyed.
    THE FENCE WILL BE COMPLETED-FAST. Cal. wants drugs O K with me. Just run the fence from Tex. along the A z – Cal border and through to Canada

    # 4 I will stop all foreign aid. “They don’t like us right”!! ( a very wise, old adage )

    IF IT COST A DOLLAR, TO MAKE A FRIEND, KEEP THE DOLLAR.

    IF IT COST A FRIEND, TO MAKE A DOLLAR, KEEP THE FRIEND.

    The democrats say they all hate us, But; they love Obama. We can send Obama ! This will solve a lot of our problems. For one it gets rid of Obama. When we stop the foreign add. This will save us billions. We can use that to pay off, Obamas friends, the Chinese. Do you see how we can do things, by changing policy, And not raising taxes? We can eliminated the emigration problem , get rid of Obama , pay off china , save the economy , and make Europe happy, at the same time. All this and no tax increase. JUST COMMON SENSE.( You need a high school dropout in there.) First you must get rid of the career politicians. This brings up my next item.

    # 5 TERM LIMITS

    I just don’t understand; people will spend millions of dollars, theirs & others, for a job that only pays 170,000. per year. After one term, they do get $160,000.00 per year, for life, Gee think that could be it. NO; To these guys that’s nothing (starvation)let’s see now, when we retire, we get, starvation below poverty level,(SOC. SOC) Obama and the Democrats have even taken away our cost of living increases. this is a fund that we payed into all of our working lives & they have been stealing from it since it started. the democrats, dip into it so they can, buy votes, from the poor people These people don’t know any better. They think dems are, wonderful, warm hearted, people who love them. Now our kids are paying and they will never see a cent I will take all this away – the high salary, the pension, big expense account, travel expense to and from work. ( We the people don’t get all this why should they ? ) I was under the impression these people worked for us !! lets let them know – now!

    # 6 PORK

    I will not sign a bill containing pork – NONE If they place one before me. I’ll tell em to stick where the sun don’t shine !!!! I will need a special pen built that will last until they get the word. if need be, I’ll pay for it, out of my salary; witch we will get into later. I’m on a roll right now! I’ ll be on T V quite a bit and will have a system set up to inform the people of what is going on in Congress. Many congressmen will not vote for a bill, because someone has added something to it that they don’t like. I can respect that. If they don’t like a bill they should not vote for it. however; I feel the people should know about this – this means the bill, the congressman’s vote, what was added, who added it, and why. After you are informed of all this it’s up to you. When citizen’s, ignore their so called leaders, because they are lazy, they deserve what they get..

    # 7 salary

    I think the presidents salary $400.000 is wow! I think I can get by on $100.0000. You kidding me, with that expense account, I’ll live like a king ! Oh’ by the way, you can rent the plane & limos out. You want to see me you can come to my house. 100,000. this is 85,924. more than we get on soc. sec. and bommer gets 400,000
    # 8 THE ECONOMY what a mess! – main thing KEEP THE GOVERNMENT OUT

    I would like to get rid of the unions, and set up a new fair system. Only a fair system will work without them; It must be fair to all – OWNERS, WORKERS, STOCK HOLDERS, and all things involving company business ; INCLUDING EXPANSION OF THE COMPANY. A company must be allowed to grow. I believe a system based on percentages could be arranged that would be fair to all. With no union or union dues involved. this will take a lot of work by a great many intelligent people a lot smarter than me. Honest & fair people : This means no politicians and very few lawyers. The system must be fair or it will not work. Unless all the people involved are happy; the system’s no good. We must remember a contract is good only when it benefits all involved. When we get a system that works; we can bring all the manufacturing back to America. We will have a strong capitalist system and a great strong America again. Of course this will piss off all the flag burners; When America is a world power once more. We must watch out for the greed, because; It will soon follow.

    YOU KNOW THE RESPONSE TO ALL THIS; IF WE DO THIS, WE WILL END UP WITH A BUNCH OF, DUMB NO NOTHING, LEADERS . YEP, WHO GOT US HERE ?
    I THINK AFTER WE GET RID OF THE CROOKS AND LEVEL THE PLAYING FIELD. THE SMARTEST AND BEST OF US WILL RISE TO THE TOP. I’LL NOT BE IN THE GANG BUT I’M HAVING FUN NOW.

    LETS SEE NOW – YA THINK I’M STARTING TO HIGH ? I SHOULD START A LITTLE LOWER – SENATE – CONGRESS – DOG CATCHER , LET ME KNOW ??
    REMEMBER – I AIN’T THE DUMMY WHO GOT US IN THIS SPOT. IT WAS THE GREEDY POLITICIANS ALREADY IN WASHINGTON.

    WAIT, I KNOW, I’LL BE A COMMUNITY ORGANIZER; THAT WAY I’LL HAVE ALL THE EXPERIENCE AND KNOW HOW REQUITED.
    I UNDERSTAND A BIRTH CERTIFICATE IS NOT REQUIRED. DO YOU NEED A HIGH SCHOOL EDUCATION ? I REMEMBER A PRESIDENT THAT NEVER WENT TO COLLEGE,
    BUT; HE WAS A DEMOCRAT. I NEVER MADE IT THROUGH HIGH SCHOOL HOWEVER; I DID START WORKING AT 14 AND – I DID OWN 3 SUCCESSFUL BUSINESSES. DO YOU THINK THE DEMOCRATS WILL HOLD THIS AGAINST ME ?
    JHSUNBUM

    • http://donthaveone Beberoni

      Dude, get a running mate. Youve got a good platform that I want incorporated into this country.

    • MHamilton

      Too often, a college education eradicates the God-given Common Sense most of us are born with. Should you choose to run, you would have my vote!

    • DaveH

      JHSUNBUM says “I would like to get rid of the unions, and set up a new fair system. Only a fair system will work without them; It must be fair to all – OWNERS, WORKERS, STOCK HOLDERS, and all things involving company business”.
      And who decides “fair”, JH? Sounds like more Government to me.
      We had the fairest system of all, strict property ownership and control by the owner, but we let it go. Voluntary contracts result from that property ownership. If you want what somebody else possesses, you offer an exchange. It might be labor, or money, or other goods. Nobody but the possessor of the property or the potential acquisitor decides the conditions of that voluntary exchange. Government would only become involved in cases of fraud.
      What could be more “fair” than that?
      I wouldn’t vote for you or anybody else who advocates force on good citizens.

    • slickporsche

      I had a lot of fun reading this and thankyou. A lot of truth to what you have to say.

  • cliff g

    You can’t argue with a mental illness nor a person with a psychotic thought process,however its fun to pour piss on a liberal and call it kool-aid they believe its the drink of choice.

    • Randy

      Cliff you are really close to he truth though I must confess your approach is a tad to vulgar to gain the kind of traction we need in the marketplace of ideas. Consider this:

      In rejecting the existence of God the modern liberal rejects the foundation of right and wrong. When people cannot distinguish between right and wrong, good and evil, vice and virtue we have a legal definition for their condition: Criminal Insanity.

      Next when there is no transcendent morality flowing from the character of God all decision making becomes based not upon objective criteria but rather upon political considerations. Hence the linkage between real cause and effect is shattered and political narratives become trump. We also have a legal definition for people who have been overcome by this condition (aka political correctness): Mental Incompetence.

      I would suggest that liberals are at some level both mentally incompetent and criminally insane. This explains quite a bit about the irrationality and destructive nature of the direction liberals are trying to take the nation.

      • DaveH

        One does not have to believe that a God exists in order to give respect to his fellow human being. I believe that most Religious morality is a valid code to live by, but I don’t believe that a person must believe in a supernatural being in order to embrace that morality.

        In fact, I think that pushing the concept of an all-powerful, all-knowing being that we can not see, hear, feel, taste, or otherwise sense, weakens your argument for morality to those who don’t believe.

        Our punishment for misbehavior is right here on earth, and it comes in many forms – criminal justice, social pressure, economic failure, and our own internal guilt when we misbehave.

        So, please, believe all you want, and teach morality all you want, but don’t try to force your religious beliefs on others.

        • TGoodreau

          Well said DaveH, well crafted response and point on!

          • http://?? Joe H.

            DaveH,
            Our punishment for wrong is here? what about the ones that do wrong and live a very good life and are respected by a great many people? Al Gore and Willy Clintoon come to mind right away. where is their punishment? I believe they will get their just rewards when they die!!

          • DaveH

            One can only hope, Joe.

          • kate8

            DaveH, Throughout the Psalms, David often laments the way the wicked prosper over the righteous.

            I do believe in kharma, or reaping what we sow. But it doesn’t always appear to happen in this life.

            Of course, it could be that we don’t see their suffering. One way or another, I do believe in Divine Justice.

          • DaveH

            Kate,
            No doubt there are many that slip through the cracks and never get punished for their sins. Such is life.

        • http://donthaveone Beberoni

          But it is a fact Dave, that over 95 percent of people who believe in God, have high morals, and walk the high ground, and give and care genuinely about others. While you are a rare breed, as I can only judge by those I know, but 99 percent of the people I know that do not own up to there being a God, have no morals what so ever. But like I say, I cant generalize everyone for a fact, but Im thinking with common sense that if 99 percent of the people I know are like that that live without God, I have to think it is like that world wide. But I do know one guy that that breaks the mold, and that is my father-in-law. He is agnostic, and he is a kind, thoughtful and caring person with very high morals. Like you, he is a rare breed. I just know on a personal level, when I walked without God, Satan ate me up. I wasnt as bad as Saul from Tarsus, who later became a hero of the bible as Paul, but I was bad. Satan still chases after me, and he wants me back, let there be no doubt about it. And sometimes we get sidetracked, and Im as bad as anyone else, where we think its us Americans against the world, and conservatives against liberals, and all kinds of things like that, when our own Bible tells us, that our battle is not against flesh and blood, but against spiritual forces. I see it all over, and that is exactly what it is. You must be much stronger that I my friend, because If I didnt know for a fact that Jesus Christ lives, and thought that this was all there was, come here, live, die, and get buried, I wouldnt see a point in living. There would be no point. But as it is, if you stretch a measuring tape around the world and keep it going forever, the 1st inch is the time we spend here on earth. And that one inch determines where we spend the rest of the time on that measuring tape. But we will go to someplace for that eternity of time. I wish you would come with me my friend. But thats your call, not mine. Im just a guy.

          • http://outlookexpress louvnjr

            Beberoni, Gee I never heard it like that and the more I read it, the more involved I was. Pretty much all of it makes sense to me but what do I know. I truly believe in MY GOD, and I know HE’S real. I just know. Their are certain obstacles that we children must pass, and in the end, we will be judged. It’s NOT a free ride,but it may be the ride of eternity. It’s up to you to decide. I love your utmost ending about an inch. It makes a whole lot of sense to me. Thanks Lou.

          • http://naver samurai

            Well said! 100% agree!

        • kate8

          DaveH, What if, instead of a God we cannot see, hear or sense in any way, He is a God who is everywhere we look?

          What if God is the very essense of Life Itself? What if He is the force of Love, Creation, Expansion, Unlimited Energy most pure and holy? That which issues forth as all of Creation? And what if all of us are a spark which issued forth from that Essence (much like a drop of ocean contains the same components as the whole sea). What if the Universe is His Body, and we are all as much a part of the Whole as a single cell is to the whole of us? What if He is both Creator and the Created?

          As above, so below. As below, so above. On Earth as it is in Heaven.

          Maybe you have not looked for God in the right places.

          Just a thought. I do, of course, respect your right to not believe, as does God. I also believe, though, that without a sense of a greater Good of which we are all a part, something to which we are ultimately accountable, not many would hold to a righteous standard. One only has to look to the ways of the godless to see that.

          • BrotherPatriot

            Kate…I’m speechless. So very much as my personal belief and so eloquently articulated.

            Thank you for that read as it’s nice and comforting to know another shares such simular views.

            GOD is everything. We are all, One.

          • DaveH

            I decided a long time ago, that the most important thing in life is that you like yourself. To achieve that, I believe, involves treating others like you would want to be treated. But most important, whatever your value system is, you need to live by those values that you expect others to live by. I truly believe that not being consistent with their value systems is what drives many people to drink or use drugs in a vane attempt to escape the guilt that they feel from their lack of adherence to their own morality.

          • kate8

            BrotherPatriot, Indeed, it is a comfort to know that we are not alone.

            I am sorry to say that I do not know, personally, one other person who quite shares my view of things. I long to have such meaningful exchanges with someone who understands but, alas…

            I know there are others out there, but I live a quiet life. Perhaps at some point Divine Providence will draw us all together.

            Godspeed.

        • Monarchist

          Dave, your comment about internal guilt is interesting. It has to do with our “con” (with) “science” (knowledge) conscience.
          Our conscience accuses us and tells us when were doing something wrong. Hence the feeling of guilt! If it’s strong enough we need to do something to “clear our conscience” otherwise were “racked with guilt”. Left un-checked this guilt can cause all sorts of problems for the sufferer i.e. depression, sleepless nights, character flaws, relationship problems, ulcers etc. You name it and a guilty conscience can probably cause it. Every person alive has experienced a guilty conscience in their life unless of course
          their a sociopath. Most people would agree that the conscience is a
          very powerful part of our make up. So why do we have a conscience and where does it come from? Why don’t we just shake it loose so we can avoid the effects of a guilty conscience? I would suggest that it is a program down loaded from our creator to know the difference between right and wrong. Moses and the Hebrew people
          received the law at Sinai the rest of us had it “written on our hearts”. Consider the book of Romans ch2 vs.14-15 “for when the Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, are a law unto themselves. Who show the work of the law written on their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness,
          and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing
          them.”
          Quite beautiful I think!
          I’m not trying to shove my belief on anyone here, just sharing thoughts and info. I completely respect the Athiest belief even if I don’t agree with it. The way I see it it’s another download from our creator! He has given us the ability to choose (free will) and we can even choose not to believe in him and he will honor that.
          In the end when all our collected thoughts and deeds are uploaded
          to God along with our conscienceness it will be up to him to judge
          what to do with us. After all, he made us so he owns us and he can do whatever he wants with us! That’s why I have chosen to bow my
          knee now, there’s just to much at stake! Thanks for all your comments. I really learn a lot from all of you!

          • DaveH

            I believe that evolution is a correct concept. There are many factors that cause mutations of genes in nature. The result is an animal with a different set of physical characteristics. If those characteristics are life threatening, that animal may perish before reproduction, thus that gene never gets passed on. Other characteristics may not be life theatening, but may for one reason or other result in fewer manifestations of those genes amongst that particular species.
            So, if I’m correct, there may be people who have no conscience (sociopaths), but most people do because there is some evolutionary selector that makes those with consciences more viable. I can only suggest that those without consciences don’t do well because eventually society gangs up and eliminates them.

          • http://naver samurai

            Dave H, I’m sorry to say that evolution is a lie and was said to be one by Darwin, just before he died. He even refuted all the work dealing with it.

            Another thing, you talk about treating others as you want to be treated? That sounds like “The Golden Rule” to me. You know..”Do unto others as you would want them to do unto you.” I understand what you say about the “self”, but the “self” is not the most important thing. The self is always the least inportant. What’s more important to you, your “self” or your family? Friends? Children? Country? Living as God says to live? These thing are all more important than the “self.”

            I understand all your comments, but I hope you understand what I’m saying. Sounds like you still have some christian beliefs in you. Hold onto them! Hold onto them like a drowning man would hold onto something to stay alive and not die. I’m not trying to convert you, just state my opinion. FOR GOD AND COUNTRY!

        • http://ahalbert@smart-technology.net Allan

          DaveH, I respect your thoughtful contributions to this site. Here’s a question I have wrestled with… If we can only be sure about things that can be tasted, smelled, heard, seen, or touched, where do the higher order thoughts, beyond those concerned with survival, come from, if not from a higher source than nature? Since science cannot explain this, it is hard to believe that such a universal striving is accidental. Or likewise with higher order malevolence. The alternative is to live and die in pointlessness. A science acquaintance of mine once wrote on our dorm “comment wall”: “what is love but two people trying to convince each other they are not lonely?”. I’ve always hoped he found a better answer with time.

          • DaveH

            If you read my above comment, I will go from there. I think love is an evolutionary trait that not all people have. But the ones without love in the past probably didn’t survive as well because people needed each other to survive. Imagine, for instance, a guy without love who might wander off and never come back to his family. Chances are the family would perish if they were dependent on the father to survive. So that loveless trait wouldn’t be passed on to the gene pool as often as the love trait would.
            Nowadays, however, society will step in and rescue the family, so there may be a growing number of loveless people in society. Maybe that explains the growing number of Liberals, lol.

      • Mel

        You believe in an invisible man in the sky you cannot ascertain or prove, live your life according to a book written by man that says you’ll burn in hell if you don’t believe in said invisible dude, and think that when you die you’ll go to this magical, wonderful, perfect place for eternity.

        Who’s the mentally incompetent, irrational, and insane one again?

        • http://donthaveone Beberoni

          Oh, but He is not invisible. Just because you cant see Him, should tell you something. I see Him everywhere. I see Him in the clouds, in the mountains, in the valleys. I see Him the vast variety of animals I see everyday. I see Him when I look at how my life has changed since I called out His name. I see Him when I look at my marriage. I see Him in the work I do, as I couldnt have done what I do before I let Him in. No stinking way. How do you know the wind is there? You cant see it. But you know its there. How do you know Oxygen is there? You dont see it, but you know its there. And if I stay silent, and I listen for Him, He tells me what to do. And the thing is, it is impossible for you to understand this, and I know that. How do I know? Because I used to be you Mel. Yeah buddy. I was the unbeliever once. Oh yeah, I was pretty nasty at it too, so thanks for not being a mean ass like I was. But I know now, and its nothing anybody told me. Its nothing anyone forced on me. Nope. It was Him that called me out, just as its written. He calls us, not the other way around. But He is waiting to hear you call for Him. Then He will come calling. He might anyhow. How do I explain something out of this world to someone who only knows earthly boundaries? Its hard to do. Im not a teacher, and I dont have that gift. All I know, is that, without a doubt, beyond any belief, that Jesus Christ is alive and well, and He will come again. No doubt about it. Until then, Ill just be a dumb human stumbling around on this earth, seeking to do His will. And its not easy, lest you think it is. Hardest thing Ive ever done. Christianity is not for the weak of heart. Lots of trials, lots of tribulations. Lots of lost friends. Lots of chastizing by people that havent got a clue. But its the best thing that ever happened to me. Have a great day.

          • kate8

            Beberoni, very well said.

            Unless a person has heard His call and felt the deep desire to know Him in his heart, the very idea seems preposterous. And especially when there are so many who appear to adhere to the outward appearance of religion, but know Him not….

            Scripture says that to those not filled with the Holy Spirit, scripture is just so much foolishness…”Some will say “Lord, Lord’, and I say ‘I never knew you’”…The numbers of the chosen are few…
            Many are called, few are chosen…

            It seems that some have a greater desire to know Him than do others.
            It’s like the story of the master who, when asked by the student how to find enlightenment, grabbed the student’s head and held it in the river. The student struggled and fought, and just before he drowned the master let him up for air. He said, “When you desire it as much as you wanted that next breath of air.”

            Everyone in his own time. And then for some, maybe not ever.

        • American Citizen

          His footprints and fingerprints are all over His creation if you look for them. It’s man who is the destroyer of His creation to our detriment. It’s the fanatics who spoil true faith. God is a loving God and does not want us being violent towards one another. It’s in the book.

          • CurtisS

            His footprints and fingerprints are all over creation? Question… is the oil spill in the Gulf of Mexico a fingerprint or a footprint? The earthquake in Haiti… fingerprint or footprint? Taliban terrorists are those God’s prints or Allah’s?

          • kate8

            CurtisS, God is in all of Creation. If in the beginning there was only God, the Word, then all of Creation must be a projection of Himself.

            God sustains us as long as we live in harmony with Him, His laws. It is when we are in defiance of Him and commit thoughts and acts that go against His Ways that disaster becomes a consequence.

          • http://naver samurai

            Curtis, don’t go down that road. You may step on a mine and blow yourself up.

        • Colleen Smith

          Who’s the mentally incompetent, irrational, and insane one again?
          You are.

        • http://naver samurai

          Mel, don’t waste our time with this atheist crap. Get off of the Obama bin Laden kool aid, it’s frying your brain!

  • http://None wayne

    TO Normal Guy.
    You are obviously not very literate on the constitution or other framing documents. I couldn’t read past your your first Jefferson quote. You left one sentence too many in that quote. “Nothing then is unchangeable but the inherent and unalienable rights of man.” Those rights are enumerated: life (aborted babies denied, aged health care will be denied), liberty (they would love to deny you the right to protect yourself, they want to force you to buy insurance, infringe on your property, deny your right to voice your opinion on television and radio, their goal is to control the internet in much the same way, …ad nauseum), and the pursuit of happiness ( force your children to be educated with morons, deny you the right to live among and associate yourself with whom you please, worship when and where I please). This is what Jefferson understood. So go back and study our nations history, instead of brainwashing excerpts.

    • http://jorind@gmail.com Zackery

      Wayne I won’t attempt to add anything to your post as I don’t want to be redundant.
      Zack

  • Ken Roberts

    Shall not prohibit is the main one and yes they don’t have the power to force a religion on any one; that is a God send if I ever seen one. The people who say separation of church and state are not well informed or are ignoring the facts, thank you we need more to stand up and print this again and again till they understand we will not give in to their vile attempts to kill any Christian religion it is not any other religion but the Christian religion . If anything we have been discriminated against time and time again. Who has ever filed a suit to stop a Buddha from being placed in the public square?

    • http://donthaveone Beberoni

      You got that right. My brother was harrassed at his job for talking about Jesus on his breaks, with a woman that was actually approaching him and asking him questions about it. They called him in and told him he couldnt talk about Jesus. He said sorry, Im going to talk about Him, as that is my job as a believer. To punish him, they transferred him to a store 50 miles away so that he would have to drive this everyday. He asked them if they would do this if he was talking about Allah and reading the Koran. They say they didnt want to talk about it. Imagine that. He ended up quitting and went to work at Walmart which told him he can talk about Jesus all he wants. Go Walmart. Yeah I know, you liberals hate them because their successful. I wrote a letter to the store he worked at, Scott’s Foods, and told them I would be telling my local church of 2500 people all about this, and that all my family of 8 was going to spread the word out in their church’s, and we all we going to stop shopping at their store. Their corporate offices then contacted my brother, and offered him his job back, but didnt do anything to their upper management people who did this, who by the way, fired another guy at another store for talking about Jesus 2 months prior to that. Needless to say, he told them he would never work for them again. Twenty years of service and this is how they work. And back to your point, had he been talking muslim or buddhist or kaballah, anything but Christianity, nothing would have been said. And that is the shame of it all. Needless to say, after many, many years of success, 3 months after they did this, this store was sold out to another chain. My Father in heaven took them out. I applaud His effort. He does take care of his own.

      • Walter

        Imagine No Religion

      • DaveH

        Good for you, Beberoni, for sticking up for your Freedom.

        • http://donthaveone Beberoni

          Thank you Dave. We all should stick up for what we believe in, or its not worth believing. And this freedom thing? Its what makes America great, and it’s too bad so many take it for granted, and too many try to dictate as to what that freedom shall be for them.

        • Bruce D.

          You are a good man DaveH. Your viewpoints are always well thought out. I see you are a very respectful man also.

  • http://GOOGLE JHSUNBUM

    THIS IS AN OLDY BUT GOODY

    THIS IS SO INCREDIBLY WELL PUT AND I CAN HARDLY BELIEVE IT’S BY A YOUNG PERSON, A STUDENT!!! WHATEVER HE RUNS FOR, I’LL VOTE FOR HIM.

    Dear American liberals, leftists, social progressives, socialists, Marxists and Obama supporters, et al:

    We have stuck together since the late 1950′s for the sake of the kids, but the whole of this latest election process has made me realize that I want a divorce. I know we tolerated each other for many years for the sake of future generations, but sadly, this relationship has clearly run its course.

    Our two ideological sides of America cannot and will not ever agree on what is right for us all, so let’s just end it on friendly terms. We can smile and chalk it up to irreconcilable differences and go our own way.

    Here is a model separation agreement: Our two groups can equitably divide up the country by landmass each taking a similar portion. That will be the difficult part, but I am sure our two sides can come to a friendly agreement. After that, it should be relatively easy! Our respective representatives can effortlessly divide other assets since both sides have such distinct and disparate tastes.

    We don’t like redistributive taxes so you can keep them. You are welcome to the liberal judges and the ACLU. Since you hate guns and war, we’ll take our firearms, the cops, the NRA and the military. We’ll take the nasty, smelly oil industry and you can go with wind, solar and biodiesel. You can keep Oprah, Michael Moore and Rosie O’Donnell. You are, however, responsible for finding a bio-diesel vehicle big enough to move all three of them.

    We’ll keep capitalism, greedy corporations, pharmaceutical companies, Wal-Mart and Wall Street. You can have your beloved lifelong welfare dwellers, food stamps, homeless, homeboys, hippies, druggies and illegal aliens. We’ll keep the hot Alaskan hockey moms, greedy CEO’s and rednecks. We’ll keep the Bibles and give you NBC and Hollywood .

    You can make nice with Iran and Palestine and we’ll retain the right to invade and hammer places that threaten us. You can have the peaceniks and war protesters. When our allies or our way of life are under assault, we’ll help provide them security.

    We’ll keep our Judeo-Christian values. You are welcome to Islam, Scientology, Humanism, political correctness and Shirley McClain. You can also have the U.N. but we will no longer be paying the bill.

    We’ll keep the SUV’s, pickup trucks and oversized luxury cars. You can take every Subaru station wagon you can find.

    You can give everyone healthcare if you can find any practicing doctors. We’ll continue to believe healthcare is a luxury and not a right. We’ll keep “The Battle Hymn of the Republic” and “The National Anthem.” I’m sure

    you’ll be happy to substitute “Imagine”, “I’d Like to Teach the World to Sing”, “Kum Ba Ya” or “We Are the World”.

    We’ll practice trickle down economics and you can continue to give trickle up poverty your best shot.

    Since it often so offends you, we’ll keep our history, our name and our flag.

    Would you agree to this? If so, please pass it along to other like-minded liberal and conservative patriots and if you do not agree, just hit delete. In the spirit of friendly parting, I’ll bet you answer which one of us will need whose help in 15 years.

    Sincerely,
    John J. Wall
    Law Student and an American

    • http://donthaveone Beberoni

      That is great. Thank you for sharing. And its the truth.

    • American Citizen

      How will you decide to divide? I don’t want to have to move.

    • sheldon

      It’s already been done… it’s called Canada.

      • http://donthaveone Beberoni

        That will work for me. The liberals can go to Canada, where they can be with their own kind, and those of us that truly love America and our freedom, we will stay here.

        • JC

          The pair of you are guilty of stereotyping. Canada has the same cross section of political division as the US. Exactly the same.
          In fact if we’re going to draw new borders, let’s run one from the Hudsons Bay right down to Texas. The east can be liberal and the west can be successful. Some people of course will have to move a round a bit but that’s ok too.

          • sheldon

            I wasn’t trying to stereotype… I was referring the Revolution when the Loyalists moved to Canada and those that wanted to separate from the King of England stayed behind… to create a Republic, with a constitution, freedom, etc., etc., etc.

          • kate8

            JC, In other words, the Left will be Right, and the Right will be Left.

            Works for me. I live in CA.

    • dan of arizona

      I for one would like to know where he went to school it wasn’t harvard thats for sure well done

  • Henry Ledbetter

    Chip I totally agree but would like to add President Ronald Reagan’s quote that “we are either a nation under God or a Nation gone Under.”
    We can either choose the Goodness of God or the Wrath of God. The truth is that “except The Lord builds the house we labor in vain to build it.” My house, your house, white house, state house court house, church house or school house, There really are no exceptions. Henry

    • http://donthaveone Beberoni

      Amen brother. Your preaching to the choir.

      • Bob Wire

        Good observation, great come back ~
        but the choir is not where the battle is.

        So I guess it’s a pep talk!

        Like the Coach that confessed to his team members that he wasn’t prejudice or racist and that everyone was all “green” to him. And when he asked them to do something they should not question but just “do it!”

        Then he commanded them to all fall out and form two lines , Light green over here and dark green over there.

        • http://donthaveone Beberoni

          Im not sure what your saying, but yes, the battle is there. Its a battle of good versus evil Bob, and thats the bottom line. Things are from one of two places. They are either from God, or they arent. So if they arent from God, just where are they from? Me, Im going to attempt to go with God. Call me crazy, but hey, thats how I roll.

          • Bob Wire

            HMMmm? If your numbers are as I suspected and recently published @ 18% of the voting public , you need to get beyond “preaching to the choir”

            But you play it anyway you wish. Most of this 18 % is comprised of the 28% of American’s that would refuse to vote a DNC ticket regardless.

            So your progress has been small ~ but to your benefit you only need a few point gain to swing a general election.

            What you need to work on is the people not in the choir! And above all, do no harm.

            To do that will require some compromise ~ and this crowd shows no interest in compromise, leaving the DNC to depend on you doing great harm.

            I have nothing against pro business but why must it be hostile to labor?

            Is it that impossible to be pro business and pro labor? Why must one lose for the other to win?

            I know you are not talking about such matter ~ so they must not be a concern?

            They should be, as labor has been under attack for 30 years.

            Few wish to discuss special interest influence as well ~ so I’m left to assume we are still in the “PRO Business” frame of mind.

            Term Limits with campaign spend cap is all that been offered to address this matter of great importance.

    • Bob Wire

      which sound good to say ~ but only has purpose and warning to the ungodly ~ I’m left to suppose Reagan was speaking a warning to the ungodly among us?

      I know few such people and Reagan’s message not intend for me unless you are falsely accuse me of being Christian.

      See how easy it is to buy a bag of nothing ?

      and be so pleased with your purchase no less!

      Reagan was good at that and so am I? ~ but ofcouse he was President and I’m, ~ just a Plumber.

      It’s just salesmanship, some people got it, know it, understand it, use it and some are left amazed by it

      I admired the Gipper myself.

      • http://donthaveone Beberoni

        Now you want to talk about a salesman, delivering the sales line, you can only go to one guy, the master con man, the master blaster salesman of himself, William Jefferson Clinton. Now there is a story teller to beat all story tellers.

  • Bob Dinegar

    EXCELLENT !!! CONCISE & CORRECT!!
    “BIDDEN OR UNBIDDEN,GOD IS PRESENT!!!” JUNG.

  • Eggs Benedict

    Normal Guy
    The framers of our Constitution were pretty smart people when they set forth this wonderful document. The Constitution outlines the duties of all three branches of the Government and what is to be left to the states. Well, our Government has violated these requirements in serveral areas and imposed laws on the people which was not their right to do. I believe that is why there is so much confusing in our Government halls today. The Constitution is not a living document that needs to change as a result of the way society has decided to conduct themselves. What if society decided something that was very evil and determental to the whole of society? It seems like everytime some one comes up with a beautiful plan for conducting our lives (the Constitution)that is good for the whole, some liberal thinking minds come along and have to change it. There is a way to change the Constitution and it is called Amending the Constitution. The problem is, it takes two thirds of the vote of the House and Senate to get it done. That would probably be almost impossible in todays world, therefore it is easier for those liberal thinkers to usurp authority and make things happen that are un-constitutional. You like to quote Thomas Jefferson a lot. He Thomas Jefferson, also said that this Constitution will work as long as it is governed by “righteous people”. When greedy minded people who have become career politicians and rake in more money than you I will ever see, and are looking out for their own welfare are constantly re-elected we will continue to be in trouble. I beleive in the beginning, the representatives and senators were to go to Washington, serve for two years and then return home to work and send some one else to Washington to represent them. If this were the case, there would be no career politicians and the budget would be much lighter without their huge salaries and their retirement program and benefits for us to have to pay for. I say, lets leave the Constitution alone and start following it and quit trying to change and it bend to meet our ends.

    • http://donthaveone Beberoni

      Lawyers. Thank the stinking lawyers. Remember when it was looked up upon when someone said they were a lawyer. Now they rightfully deserve to be looked upon as the lepers that they have become. It has become the dirtiest profession out there, and the most corrupt. Drugs dealers pay off lawyers who pay off judges, who used to be lawyers. Corporations pay off lawyers who pay off judges who used to be lawyers. Politicians, who used to be lawyers, pay off lawyers who pay off judges who used to be lawyers. Its a dirty, dirty thing anymore. My how they have fallen. And its easy to understand why. Money is their god. They dont have God. They have a god, called money. That is who they serve, and when that happens, this is what you get.

      • alpha-lemming

        The only problem with the title “Criminal Lawyer”??
        Too redundant!!

      • Bruce Bowdler

        What do you call 20,000 Lawyers at the bottom of the sea? A good start.

  • Matt

    Way to go chip!

  • Tazio2013

    chipster and his glenn beck-loving, fox noise-following, crusading christian conservative, white, male, republican, tea-bagging simpletons (Normal Guy not included) have done it again; removed all doubt that they have drunk deeply from the cup of right wing wacko kool-aid! If you all CCC pinheads are capable of understanding the truth of what other, more intelligent and educated individuals have said, read on.

    “The priests of the different religious sects… dread the advance of science as witches do the approach of daylight, and scowl on the fatal harbinger announcing the subdivision of the duperies on which they live.” – Thomas Jefferson

    “Politics has slain its thousands, but religion has slain its tens of thousands.” – Sean O’Casey

    “The religion of one age is the literary entertainment of the next.” – Ralph Waldo Emerson

    “To an evolutionary psychologist, the universal extravagance of religious rituals, with their costs in time, resources, pain and privation, suggests as vividly as a mandrill’s bottom that religion is adaptive [and appeals only to the misinformed hoi poloi].” – Marek Kohn

    For a more objective perspective on Reality read The Daily Bell, LewRockwell.com, freedomainradio, NaziSociopaths.org and other Non-theistic, Jeffersonian Libertarian oriented publications.

    Looking forward to your responses!

    • http://donthaveone Beberoni

      My gosh, you forgot to lambast Rush Limbaugh and Sean Hannity in your drivel based statement. You liberals are slipping. Oh, and you forgot to blame Bush.

    • DaveH

      Tazio wins the award. That’s the most manipulative name-calling, ridicule, and condescension that I’ve seen in a single Liberal comment.
      Please post here more often, Tazio. It will save me a lot of work spent convincing people of how depraved the Liberals are.

      • DaveH

        And please don’t try to associate yourself with Libertarians. You are no Libertarian. We believe in the freedom of people to believe what they want to believe.

        For our Party Platform:
        http://libertarianparty.org/platform

        • coal miner

          Dave,

          How come Ron Paul and Sonny Barger refuse to walk across the picket line?I dare you called Sonny a thug,not to his face you won’t.These are real men,not some spineless scabs.They are true Libertarians.Sonny said he wouldn’t be low lie enough to escort some worhless maggots across picket lines.He was ask to be a goon. He refused the request.Ralph,I am proud of you.You are a true patriot.GOOD LUCK IN YOUR MOTOR CYCLE BUISNESS.I’ll stop by there and have look at those Harleys.

          • DaveH

            Libertarians don’t force their way on others like Unions do.
            If people get together in a Union and walk off the job, we’re okay with that. But if they use force or coercion to block other people from taking those jobs, we are not okay with that.
            I doubt that you could show me many Union members who aren’t willing to resort to violence or the suggestion of it to get their way.

      • http://donthaveone Beberoni

        He even topped denniso.

    • WarriorH

      Cass Sunstein.

    • Pathfinder

      And where did you say your rights originate ??

  • Bob Wire

    I only question the fact you label a miscomprehension as a “lie” and then decided to label it as “liberal”

    I always wondered why ~ manufactures ~ created and sold labeling devises and certain people seemed to really enjoy having them. They carry a special appeal to people that hate disorder and confusion in their lives.

    I had a friend that got one for Christmas and he went wild with it! ~ He labeled his refrigerator, “refrigerator” and then his phone, “phone”

    I’m left only to wondering, who was getting them confused?

    Label away guys! There is people out there depending on you to keep the rest of us straight about such things.

    You’re doing a get job! Don’t let up! The 2010 elections are drawing near and I’m counting on you to keep everything in it’s proper box and labeled correctly. Let’s keep the confusion to a minimum.

    • http://donthaveone Beberoni

      Its easy in 2010 and 2010 Mr. Wire. No one in their right mind will pull the little lever in the column labeled democrat. America has woke up, and one doesnt have to look far to see the great mistake made in 2008. Thousands, if not hundreds of thousands, have left the democratic party over these current losers, and thats without a new viable candidate to jump to. Imagine that. I needed Ronald Reagan to convert me. I guess it just doesnt take much anymore, since their insanity is so visible these days.

      • Tazio2013

        Typically, I refuse to have a battle of wits with an unarmed CCC, but for you I’ll make an exception. It’s the independent moderates who will decide the November 2010 elections and the more you white, homophobic, xenophobic, tea-bagging racist fascists rant and rave with your right wing wacko nonsense, the more thoughtful and intelligent among US will not vote republican. You clowns will get no more than 45% of the votes and ABSOLUTELY NOTHING WILL CHANGE!

        • DaveH

          A battle of wits? Who would you have a battle of wits with, Tazio? An eighth grader?
          An intelligent person armed with facts need only present those facts to win a debate or influence people. Half of your comments consist of name-calling, ridicule, and condescension. All the manipulative skills of an eighth grader.
          I don’t care if you’ve read Nietze, Aristotle, Descartes, or Socrates, you are just a rude, disrespectful human being.

        • HFlashman

          45% for Tea party candidates?

          • Bob Wire

            Bagger are polling at 18% today ~ or are least that’s what’s being say.

            The 18 coming largely from the hard core die hard 28% Gop core vote would be my guess.

        • Pathfinder

          To the contrary, the moderates are fed up with your communistic, nazi (aka national SOCIALIST), fascist (Also another brand of national SOCIALISM) deception. Your Lamestream media’s lies about Obama being a moderate won’t work anymore. It is time for BOTH of the old, corrupt parties to die. (Yes BOTH the donkeys and the RINOs) We are all tired of being offered a choice between tweedel dumb and tweedle dumber. Unlike yourself, I do not own a crystal ball. So, I will not waste time pretending to know the future. As for myself; November the seecond can not come soon enough. Then we will know how people feel. Of course, I do expect that ACORN will help democrats to vote early AND OFTEN for their favored candidates.

        • http://donthaveone Beberoni

          I am non of the things that you just called me, so in truly knowing that, I guess that makes you a liar. And I dont associate with thieves and liars, so go away and be gone satan. Have a nice day.

        • http://jorind@gmail.com Zackery

          Taz my “friend”, you are absolutely fantastic! Have you approached Leno, Letterman, or Comic Central about appearing on their show(s)? If not, you are missing the chance of a lifetime. Go get’em boy!
          Your “friend”,
          Zack

    • Pathfinder

      Labeling the refrigerator as a refrigerator and the phone as a phone, while redundant, is not really a problem. The problem occurs when we try to label the phone as a refrigerator or vice versa. Labeling is not bad in and of itself. (Imagine trying to buy food in a grocery where the cans have no labels or even worse where the labels are misleading.) Rather it is the attempt to decieve by afixing false labels which is detestable. So, sarcastic marks aside, let us all be cautious and try to be accurate in attaching labels.

      • marvin

        on july 9 1868 the 14th amendment to constitution was enacted for the children of black slaves that were forced to come here[not volunteer]to become american citizens by default not because they wanted to be here or were here illegally by choice[as per anchor babies]but because there moms and dads were kidnapped and put in chains but somehow in the 142 years total but mostly in the last 50 years some have read this to say that all that are born here are citizens, like the seperation of church and state and by the way this is fact the word seperation is not to be found in the constitution,what the constitution said is the goverment shell not establish a religion,but all 50 states constitutions start with by the grace of god or supreme being or deity, i thank you get the point the founding fathers were mostly god fearing belivers of one god,but some try to say the constitution is a living document that changes with the seasons,not so the constitution is the same yesterday as today and because you want it to say something does not change the facts, case in point did we have an invasion from mexico 142 years ago i say no did we have a problem with the children of slaves by no choice of there own you bet, now the 14th is a be all cure all for illegals that play the system,like the seperation of church and state that is not in the constitution

        • http://jorind@gmail.com Zackery

          If we had no invasion from Mexico what was the Alamo all about?

          • AnhydrousBob

            Texas only became a part of the Union after it seceded from Mexico – to the Mexicans, it looked like part of their territory was breaking away – and they were right.

  • Peg

    Thanks Chip!! keep them coming!

  • Benb

    Thanks Chip! What you said should work for all people who call themselves Americans. If they don’t like us for some reason or another, they should get out of this country. Maybe Saudi Arabia will take them in and they can change their constitution while they are there. I doubt it! And yet you want to change ours. Very funny!

    What does it take for some people to understand? You’re in a country that respects God and religion. If you don’t like that, don’t try to change us. This is what we have chosen to live like. If you try to take away our voice in government, what do you get? Only your side of the story. We respect America and it’s constitution and we believe that it will work for everyone, including the rest of the world. Should the rest not like our way of life…well, you’ve already seen why we have to have wars. Don’t you get it yet? You can’t take God out of the equation. If He’s not in it, than you’re on your own and the rest of the nation will go down the tubes with you, if you want to change our constitution. I fought as a Marine in one of our wars, just to protect what we have here, and people like you, who think God should be taken out of everything. Let me tell you something. When you’re in a fox hole and fighting for your life, there’s no such thing as an athiest. Even a true athiest believes in God deep down inside. He’s not as stupid as he pretends to be. He just wants his way and he doesn’t care who he hurts in the process of getting it.

    God Bless America!

    • HFlashman

      Hmmm..so you would support turning us into a “christian” Saudi Arabia?

      • Pathfinder

        Why do you insist on putting words into other people’s mouths ?? Is it because you are unable to formulate an intelligent response to what they actually said ?? I don’t recall anyone on this message board saying that they wanted to creat a “christian Saudi Arabia” here. Instead of argueing against things that no one here has said; I would be much more impressed if you would respond to what was actually stated.

        • JeffH

          Pathfinder, that is what they, liberal left, do…you see it all the time here and it always comes from the “dark side” of the platform.

      • http://donthaveone Beberoni

        Its too bad Saudi Arabia isnt Christian. Man that would be great. It would turn the whole middle east around, and the muslim terrorist problem would be gone, being that they are the money behind 90 percent of it.

  • Henry Ledbetter

    Amen We need to be mindful that it rains on the just and the unjust but even the the unjust profit ween the rightious are in authority.

    • Bob Wire

      metaphorically speaking you are raining down my collar Henry.

      It’s very debatable to the quality of any benefits offered while being exploited and your bones suck dry. Much like the movie scene we’ve all seen 3o times by now.

      Refer;”The Ten Commandments” Heston movie

      We could well be crazed mad, like the half starved old man dancing knee deep in the Pharaoh mud pits made bricks when he was told for punishment, he must now make his bricks tally without straw! ~ Anguish did not begin to describe the horrible look on his muddy face and bulging eyes as he cried out, “Make bricks without straw?”

      A sane person would have said just kill me now A$$ -O! ~ screw Pharaoh and his bricks.

      Over the last 30 years ~TOO many of the American people have been exploited by both predatory government and business concerns. ~ The Government has permitted ( encouraged ) it to happen and a select few have benefited from it, while a good 45 % of working American’s standard of living has taken a serious nose dive.

      We are not growing! we are fading! If something doesn’t turn around, we can look at Mexico and see our near future.

  • Danny Buckles

    It seems to me that there is a defined seperation within our ranks. We have Constituionalist that hold true and faithful to what it stands for. And we have non-Constitutionalist who deny the power of government for which it stands. The very undeniable fact that the offices of government present to this day are taken and held by the Oath of office to uphold and to defend the constitution of THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA. You can neither deny alter or demean that which you have sworn to uphold and defend. I challenge anyone to intelligently defend these enemies of our constitution who have under the oath of their office to defend the constitution have tried to destroy it. As for Thomas Jefferson’s Letters that is exactly what they were. Letters written from one man to another,representing his personal oppinions they do not define or interpret the Constitution of THE UNITED STATES I do not think there has ever been a problem with the understanding of this wonderful document the problem is the Anti American enemies of our nation who are determined to destroy our form of government from within. This powerful document formed by GOD fearing men is hated by ungodly men.Just as they hate the true word of GOD that is given through JESUS CHRIST of whom the laws of this nation were grafted voted on and established. It is time for these constitution haters to be called out as traitors. For you either defend our constitution or you are the enemy of it.Don’t try to change or destroy our great nation find one you approve of and live there. Chances are pretty good that the US probably support them as well and at somepoint defended their freedom. God Bless

  • Forest

    Thanks for the enlightning report. Your right about the seperation of church and state. But I am a liberal. But I call myself a true liberal. Which means I respect everyones rights. I believe strongly in the Freedom of speech, and at the same time believe women should be the only ones who get to choose what they get to do. When it comes to the abortion issue. Yet I also believe in a persons right to carry a gun. I think our government sticks its nose into to many places. But at the same time I believe strongly in better regulations that protect Americans from greedy companies. A true liberal believes in Protecting americans freedoms. But also in protecting americans from those who use money and religion to control this country.

    • http://donthaveone Beberoni

      Ive yet to see anyone in this country be able to use religion to control the people. When did this happen? I do not recall this ever happening. Now the money part, yeah your dead pan correct there. Wherever you have large amounts of money, corruption is right there. And see money is really important. A lot of people dont realize it or even know it, but the Bible mentions money more than love. Yeah, God knew it would be a pretty important thing to do that. Think about it. Man cannot serve both God and money. Look around at the world. Seems to manifest itself pretty good that way now, doesnt it.

      • kate8

        Beberoni, This is something that has always baffled me: the way the liberals harp about becoming a theocracy. For nearly 200 years we were mostly all Christians in America. People adhered to doctrines within their own groups, but never demanded anyone legislate their religion. This was why there was concern when JFK took office, because people feared he would be serving the Pope first. But that didn’t happen.

        We were a far more moral and prosperous nation then.

        • Bob Wire

          >>”This is something that has always baffled me: the way the liberals harp about becoming a theocracy.”<<

          Hmm? ~ well it true such concerns would rise probably rise for the left of center, or the CLU. ~ I think you over state their numbers and the size of the attack.

          I'm torn on this issue ~ in that, unless I know you and it's solicited ~ I really don't want to hear about God matters. ~ I really don't want to hear about where you were educated ~ Princeton, Yale, Baylor ? ~

          We live is a nation where we are all free to worship as we wish, what we wish. (more or less) ~ But what If I take 5 minute of you time while I do my "God" thing? Roll out my mat, get out my compass, get on my hand a knees, butt in the air and start speaking in strange tongues? Does that mean you are going to "yield" while I do 5 minute of mine?

          What if You need more then 5 minutes? What if I want to do this 4 times a day ~ with a snake!

          There's a place for matter of faith, ~ it's carried is one's heart and severed up in our homes , churches and temples.

          What I'm trying to say is ~ You live you God experience and teach by example ~ This open public displays of righteousness even Jesus warned us of.

          Let the sleeping dog lie is what i'm saying ~

          I prefer there to be "NO Law" and no restrictions ~ Please don't force us to make laws regulation such human practices.

          • kate8

            BW, what nonsense. I have never indicated any such bent as what you just posted. If you think that, then you don’t read my posts.

            You are a master at mind-bending, it seems. The fact is, in America Christians are no longer permitted to pray openly, but Muslims are given whatever time they want, places to pray, foot-baths, and instruction to our children in public schools. Our courts are contemplating accepting Sharia.

            My position is the Constitutional one: government is not permitted to go anywhere near the issue of faith.

            Of course we don’t want prayer mats in the streets blocking traffic and creating spectacle. But if a person or a group wants to quietly pray on the steps of the Court, or if people want to offer a prayer at the beginning of a meeting, that is perfectly fine.

            Common sense must always prevail. The question is whether my exercise of faith infringes on yours. Well, if you are paying me to do a job, and I am taking your time for my prayers, then it does. If I am creating a distraction or commotion, then it does. If you accost me on the street ranting about your beliefs and shoving pamphlets in my face, then it does.

            Geeze man, we’re not all idiots.

      • Al Sieber

        Reverand Jim Jones did.

        • kate8

          Al, Jim Jones only controlled the people within his own cult, and no one forced them to join.

          Many religions and cults exert control over their followers. But that is their right to belong to such groups, and they do so by choice. I know of no time when anyone tried to pass laws requiring the people belong to worship in any particular way, or at all.

    • DaveH

      The problem is, Forest, that most regulations don’t protect the people from Big Business. Instead they protect the Big Businesses from competition, and they cost us more money. It costs money for the smaller businesses to comply with the paperwork hoops that are set up by regulations. That causes a lot of them to throw in the towel. Thus, there is less competition for the Big Businesses that have plenty of money to hire lawyers and accountants to deal with the hoops. And It costs money to have all those Bureaucrats supposedly protecting us from Big Bad Companies. At times in the past, with the lack of easily available product reviews, there might have seemed to be a need for Government intrusion into the marketplace. But with the Internet, there is no excuse for anybody not to do their homework before they buy a product or before they make an investment.

      Look at the countries in this list. They are arranged from least regulated to most regulated. You can pick the country names to see the particulars for that country. Tell me which of those countries you would rather live in, the least regulated or the most regulated?
      http://www.heritage.org/index/Ranking.aspx

  • DCS of Crkt Cve

    Chip, you nailed it (again)and there’s nothing more to be said! Right on!

  • darraugh

    Benb Love it or Leave it Love to Leave it. However since this country has taken all our money you would have to give us the money to get out of this raw, corrupt country. Plus we will not give our cat up or have her put in quarantine for 6 months to get into another country. So you will have to find a country who would not put out cat in quarantine for 6 months or any amount of time then we would love to get out of this country who “after the clinton/bush disaster obama has pounded the final nail into the coffin.”

    • Pathfinder

      Ronald Reagan once said that (not an exact quote here I don’t have a copy of the speech handy): When Castro took over Cuba many Cubans fled to America; but if freedom should be extinguished here, in America, where will we go ? This is why I refuse to leave and will fight all of you socialists. America is unique and I want to keep the republic that our founders gave us; especially since we have abolished that great mistake of slavery which marred or birth.

      • http://donthaveone Beberoni

        We dont go, we stay and fight. That is pretty much why enemies dont try to attack us, except for now with these muslim terrorists, because they dont value life and dont care when we kill them. They just dont get it.

  • http://ordy@fedtel./net Eric g

    Seperation of church and State , which is also seperation of religion and state . Religion can be called anything that is believed but not proven . Athieism is also a religion becuase they accept a great deal on unproven faith .
    All of the various religions have always been trying to get the power of the government to promote their beliefs . Even if one religion can only get a law passed making it illeagal for another religion to use certian words in public places .
    The biggest danger to christianity , is that some of the other religions are disguising themselves as scientists , or suffuring from religious persecution and discrimination . You all must now by now how a political correct government reacts to discrimination . If history is anything to go by ? we cant expect the government to really pactice seperation of government from religion . As government themselves can be and are often a religion .

  • James

    When Jesus said: “Love your enemies, bless them that curse you” etc. (Mt. 5:44), He was referring to fellow Christians who through misinformation were in disagreement. John wrote (2 John 1:9-11): “Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son. If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed: For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.”
    The Bible doesn’t disagree with itself. Remember, John was the disciple Jesus loved. He was here-speaking of the Israelite-pretenders among them who had denied that Jesus was the Messiah.

    • http://donthaveone Beberoni

      There are a lot of people who do not understand that the Bible was written for believers. Those whose eyes and ears are not opened, get nothing but words when they read it, but for us who know and believe, it fills the Spirit inside us and strengthens and guide us. Without the Holy Spirit inside you, its just a book of words and stories. To us believers, it is the Basic Instructions Before Leaving Earth.

  • Ted Posey

    There have been many wise, good comments and a few idiotic ones made here, but one thing you have all missed: The Constitution IS a living document and has been changed as we’ve faced new conditions and problems that the Founders never percieved. The fact that it has only had 27 changes speaks well of the knowlege and wisdom of the originators. One of those changes correted the error of a previous change. The 21st repealed the 18th.
    Now we are gravely in need of a 28th: “Congress shall make no laws affecting the people that does not apply equally to themselves and shall make no laws affecting Congress that do not apply equally to the people.”

    • Pathfinder

      The sense in which you are using the phrase “living document” is not the same as it has been used by others on this site. I am convinced that no one on either side (and especially not myself) thinks that the constitution should be frozen and compleately immutable. My objection to the phrase “living constitution” is based on the contention that the amending procedure can be circumvented by the SCOTUS or others. A “reinterpretation” of the constitution is NOT a proper amendment. Further, this interpretation nonsense was addressed by those who wrote the original document. They refered to such creative use of language as “inovation” and disapproved of such invention whole heartedly. Let me again refer all who post to this site to: The unanimous DEclaration of Independance, The Constitution of the United States, and The Federalist Papers. As for the other writings of our early founders, especially the personal letters of Thomas Jefferson and others, they are important and relevant to the understanding of their intent. However, to yank certain quotes out of context and inovate on their meaning, in an attempt to deny America’s Christian heritage is just plain decietful. Learn the historical context, especially the religious wars in Europe and the conflict between Catholics and Protestants in Englad (some remnats of which continue to this day in Ireland) and you will realize the true intent of the first amendment as intended by those who wrote it.

    • Pathfinder

      Ted Posey: Your proposed amendment should not be necessary because the constitution and the federalist papers make it clear that congress is NOT permitted to exempt itself from the laws that it passes.
      However, since they have, in fact, ignored this clear meaning of the original documents. I would be glad to support your 28th amendment. I will urge my senators and representative to propose it. And I will urge my state to ratify it.

  • Bob Wire

    Hey now!

    WE’ve made it through much darker times cat woman. ~ Cheer up!

    It’s not all that bad, ~ they are just pretending they know what they are talking about.

    and act like they are wounded and living under a bridge somewhere.

    It’s just their pride ~ and they can’t find a electrical outlet for their PC under a bridge.

    It all going to work out fine ~ and tomorrow’s will come one day after another until ~ one day it won’t matter to us where it does or not.

    • http://donthaveone Beberoni

      Who are you talking about here, the democrats? Canadians? Who is it?

  • darraugh

    I have signed every petition on the Internet for having Under God and managers etc in public places and really feel it a violation of your civil rights that they take these things from you. Should send MCLU to Mexico.

    But whether the Constitution has Separation of Church and State in it or not it should be or a law made saying it. bush got elected and relected on his Born again Christian. Then when the fundies left the oval office bush and the Republicans made fun of them. Now that 50 violations as governor of AK, broke the l972 Federal Law against shooting wolves from the air is it a felony? still a Federal law Palin in the Front Magazine said she unified the Republican base by morals ha.and religion. She is just copycat of bush and a greedy opportunist to be president. That pro amnesty, didn’t know what NAFTA meant, kills the polar bears, walrus, wolves and whales with guns and legislation Palin. She said she loves the polar bears, but only as rugs. I thought you religious ones were suppose to love all God’s Creatures which does not mean killing them, eating and wearing them. Hypocrites and esp two gun Palin the Annie Oakley of AK. You want to run someone for president who had 50 ethic violations and broke a l972 Federal Law just because she claims to be religious,

    Then cat killer Frist and bush with poor Terry Schiavo attached to the tubes and they wanting to keep her tied to them for the fundies vote. But both of them had living wills I bet where they would never be attached to tubes.

    The Vatican and the Evangelist who are for amnesty for more members and therefore more money esp. today when people don’t go to church. l5% of the Evangelist are Mexican. Vatican who have their woman have a lot childbirths which is bad in it self, but the women can get complications like diabetes from all those childbirths. With diabetes sooner or later kidney failure, blindness, both legs amputated. They say we are not humane with our border when they are not humane period with their women. Plus on the History Channel it said that the Vatican gave fake ID’s and shelter for the Nazi to escape to Brazil who killed and wounded the US and European troops in World War ll. The American Catholics giving to their Catholic Churches which turn around and give to the Vatican to help the Nazi who killed the American troops. The Vatican says about being humane about our borders when they are not humane to our troops. Like my parents always said religion is a racket and the overly religious are the ones to watch out for. Stick to your bible, church but stay out of politics, because all the corrupt politicians do is to use you against the Americans.

    The ones you should be voting for is DeMint, Boehner and Brewer who are for conservative spending, against amnesty and illegal. Boehner coming from OH is against NAFTA too. Plus all of them are clean and no baggage. Whereas the ones your brass Republicans are running for president flip flop pro amnesty Romney, 50 ethic violations and broke a l972 Federal law pro amnesty Palin, Gingrich who divorced his first wife when she was in the hospital for cancer and left his second wife for a young staffer and then cat killer Pawlenty who as the governor of MN allows his constituents to shoot cats without collars like feral, barn or any house cat that gets out without a collar. They have a lot of baggage and the left is going to have a field day if the Republicans run them.

    Oh Chip content not context.

    • http://jorind@gmail.com Zackery

      Do you dream up all this crap on your own or do you have help from the Obama, Pelosi, Reid, Kerry, Biden cabal? You are somewhat like Tazio – you should be on Leno, Letterman or Comic Central programs. Go back to sleep and dream up more nonsense about Palin, etc.
      You poor lemming…

  • Bruce Eden

    Time to invoke the Second Amendment against the current tyranny and the Federal Reserve Banksters.

    • Pathfinder

      Bruce: In the days of our founding (especially 19 August 1775 AD) the patriots fought one tyrannt 3000 miles away. We now face 3000 tyrants only one mile away. How do you plan to overcome this new situation ? Don’t get me wrong. I will be glad to take up arms and fight oppression. I just want to know that we stand a chance in spite of the odds being against us. So how will we avoid being destroyed piecemeal ? How will the patriots manage to coordinate a concerted action ? And how will we manage with so many tories in our midst ? Is it time to stop clinging to our guns and start using them ? Or should we refrain for now while we attempt to right ourselves via the ballot box ? Again, I do not shrink from armed rebellion IF it becomes neccessary. BUT, 1) Is it necessary NOW ? and 2) How do you plan to win as opposed to being slaughtered by the redcoats ?

    • http://donthaveone Beberoni

      Its high time to dissolve the Fed and put OUR money in OUR hands. Most these guys arent even from here, and they are playing with our money.

  • FreedomFighter

    The truth will set us free and keep us free.

    Laus Deo

  • Matt V

    to all those who dont agree with chip nthe fact remains the constitution is there as it is . if you want it to mean somthing else then change it and ratify it (fat chance) otherwise chip in this case is right.

  • atlas reborn

    Chip Wood please note the founding fathers tried to find one of the religions at that time to make the official religion of the country. they had several contending religions at that time and when they could not find one that they agreed on they wrote that simple congress shall make no law either establishing nor prohibiting the practice of one. so the supreme idiots on the supreme court ruled and rules in contradiction of the 1st admendment. the notes of the federalist papers also said that. Maryland was Catholic, Pennsylvania was Quaker,Virgina was christian, mass was puritan, and so on. and they made their religions their states religion. and that was ok because the founding fathers were still alive. so if that was against the constitution they would have been struck down. Maryland supported Catholic schools. if that was against the constitution it would have been struck down immeadiatly. same for Mass which prohibited anyone wha was not of the state religion from holding office. that is why the first admendment was worded as it was so the states themselves could have an official religion. so the founding fathers would be shocked and horrified at these decisions of the supreme court. you are totally right that the court does not have the power to legistate but they certianly try their best to be God. and God would not force anyone to follow him. He says if you do not follow his laws you will be dammed to the fires of hell. Jesus Says the only way to salvation is through him. He does not say you cannot follow any religion you want. God in the bible made a covent with the Jews that they will go to heaven if the obey the laws of the covenant faithfully. Jesus never said the Jews could not be saved because the Father made a covenant with the Jews. Now how can a court the supreme court especially make such an assine decisions as they do on religion. The country was founded on and by christians and jews. Absurdity on the court.

  • refuse2lose

    It is because our executive and judicial bodies have taken on the role of “lawmaker” that Christians are being legislated into silence and even harassed at their place of employment for merely reading a bible during a break. Because of a very small but vocal minority Christianity is being attacked,and of all places the country with the most religious freedom.

    I would like to direct this to all the Christians living in America…. what will you do if the atrocities that are now happening in Nigeria,Kenya and multiple muslim countries make their way here? Will you continue in your silence or will you stand and fight for God? The choice is yours.

    • http://donthaveone Beberoni

      God told us in the book of Matthew, that “you will have trouble in this world”. Not you might have trouble. Not, you could have trouble. No, it said “YOU WILL” have trouble in this world. People that dont know Jesus and dont know Christianity, think its just a bed of silk for the Christian, that we have no problems and just walk around in a daze or something. Truth is, as a Christian, we are persecuted, attacked, beaten down, chastized, kicked out, not allowed in, and that is just by our own government, let alone what society projects onto us. And its going to get worse from here on out. We accepted that when we accepted Christ. But relax my fellow believers, we all know the battle has already been won. Christ holds the keys to life and death, and He will administer it at His chose time. But good has already triumped, and it shall be instituted. Until then, strive on brothers and sisters, and fight the good fight.

  • Harry Buttle

    I doubt that your flippant and superficial Constitutional argument will convince many. The words “fair trial” do not appear anywhere in the Constitution. Are we then to conclude that the Founding Fathers approved of unfair trials? Separation of Church and State was an established principle even in the states at the dawn of the Constitution.

    Many of the states [in the period between the Revolution and the adoption of the U. S. Constitution], in order to obviate any suggestion of a religious establishment, prohibited all clergymen from sitting in the legislation. (Gordon S, Wood, The Creation of the American Republic, 1776-1787, New York: W. W. Norton & Co., 1972 [orig. publ. 1969], pp. 158-159 [footnote]. Wood cites the state constitutions of Maryland, Virginia, Delaware, Pennsylvania, North Carolina, Georgia, New York, South Carolina, and New Hampshire.) That’s 9 of the original 13 colonies. These documents atill exist. You could look them up. No doubt this background, this history, is the reason that almost all clergy who were seated in the First US Congress first resigned their religious position before being seated as a Senator or Representative.

    In 1773, the Rev. Isaac Backus , the most prominent Baptist minister in New England, observed that when “church and state are separate, the effects are happy, and they do not at all interfere with each other: but where they have been confounded together, no tongue nor pen can fully describe the mischiefs that have ensued.” You are advocating mischief.

    • http://ahalbert@smart-technology.net Allan

      “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof…”

  • Bruce D.

    That was a very impressive essay on the constitution Chip Wood. It seems to me that it should be taught in schools everywhere. I hope there is some way to get back control of the public school system.

    • http://donthaveone Beberoni

      Good point Bruce, as they are indoctrinating American children into liberalism where they think it as normal, when its not.

  • John Despard

    Our founding fathers guarnteed us the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. In those days land was free for the taking and people could move away from civilization if they didn’t want to follow all the rules. Where can people go to do this today? Should not the right to life include the right to the necessities to maintain life? How often do people have to make choices on which necessity for life they can afford? Built into the price of everything in this country are the salaries of the rich elite. A utility company should meet the needs of all the people in their area before paying their executives their millions in salary, or spending hundreds of millions for naming rights to stadiums, etc. Food is destroyed while millions starve just so the rich elite can be paid. Buildings are boarded up and sometimes destroyed while people are homeless. It seems that our precious rights only belong to the elite while those unable to afford them can be damned. Is this what our founding fathers intended?

    • http://donthaveone Beberoni

      Would you still feel that way, if you paid your dues, took out a student loan, went to college, then to graduate school. Got your degree. Got a job with a utility company, running errands. Then you moved up to the mail room. Then as an office assistant. You worked hard, real hard. You moved up to being an office manager. Again, you worked long hard hours, and they saw what a good worker you were. So you moved up the corporate chain, over seeing a whole region, after 25 years of hard work. Now you receive a million dollar salary. Your telling me the guy didnt earn it? Come one man. What happened to it being ok to reward success. Why demonize it? These same big business hire thousands of people and make it possible for those people to buy homes and cars and raise children and have lives. And you demonize them. I dont understand that. I myself am not jealous of someone who has it made. Envy is a sin dude. More power to them. I cannot demonize someone who is successful. No, I would rather demonize Joe Crack dealer down the street, who wont work, collects food stamps and unemployment and other aid. Thats the cat that needs demonized, and instead our government rewards him. Your not thinking straight, if you stop and think about it at all. Take a look, will you. I cannot in good faith begrudge my fellow human being because they worked hard and became successful. I just cant do it. Congratulations to them. Im glad in America, hard work still pays off. Thats all Ive got to say.

  • http://bogfrog@centurytel.net Gary Lumsden

    Separation of church and state is so simple. It means the rest of the citizens of the country does not have to have the same religion as our president. When England, for example, had a king/queen come into power, all the people had to have the same religion he/she had.
    Our founding fathers were smart, knew that, and that is why this was put into the constitution. If we have a Catholic pres. we do not all have to become Catholics, if the pres. is Prebysterian, we do not have to become that, Baptist, the same. If an athiest, suddently we do not have to ban all worship of God.

    It simply means we do not have to have the same religion (or lack thereof) as our president.

    Why does everyone want to make it so complicated? History plainly explains the need for it to be in our constitution. Many of our founding fathers came from England or western Europe and saw the need to clarify that point because of their past history.

    • JUDY

      Excellent observation, Gary. People do not understand where it will lead if there is no separation of church and state. Just the fact that some people will not allow others to believe differently should send up a red flag. There will be persecution when the government takes over religion.
      A study of the Protestant Reformation during the Dark Ages tells a lot of the atrocities that happen when one person attempts to be consciense for another.

      • Robert Berger

        Whether the constitution mentions separation of church and state or not is irrelevant and immaterial. Without this a nation is doomed to theocracy. Just look at such theocratic tyrannies as Saudi Arabia and Iran to see this.
        But right-wing politicians in bed witht he odious religious right would turn America into a theocracy if they got the power,and this must be avoided at all costs.Using feeble excuses such as claiming that America is a “Christian nation” and was founded on “Biblical princiles, they are seeking to erode separation of church and state and give their religion all the power in America.
        They are always making specious complaints about wicked Godless liberals and atheists supposedly trying to take away their religious freedom, but if they got the power it is THEY who would be the real threat to freedom in America.
        The founding fathers never intended US laws to be made on the basis of what is written in the Bible,and the constitution does not mandate this,despite the specious claims of the religious right.

        But in the America they envision,Presidents would be sworn in not by swearing on the Bible to uphold the constitution, but by swearing on the constitution to uphold the Bible.If this ever happens,this great nation is doomed.

        • marvin

          Robert Bergerso so what your saying is what the federal goverment is doing is ok ,obama[self proclamed citizen of the world] had some of his people try and find a way to amnesty 20 million illegals thru ex order[numbers usa]so as to by pass congress is better then a god fearing man or woman that will stick to the constitution and the laws of this country or mabe c rangel like nixon i am not a crook would be better

        • http://ahalbert@smart-technology.net Allan

          Amazing how our forefathers managed to set up and maintain a free country without Progressives.

    • http://donthaveone Beberoni

      Good post Gary, you speak the truth. They fled here from the tyranny where things were forced on them. Thats all they were trying to convey, to put it in laymans terms, was “The government cannot force you to practice religion”. It has nothing to do with the city council wanting to put a cross on the courthouse lawn for Christmas. We have let the ACLU and other liberal anti-American organizations have their way with this country, which to me, is a shame on every stinking one of you in the legal profession. Shame on you, as you made it happen, and you let it happen. Shame on you lawyers.

  • owldog

    Pretty word. Got about halfway through it and thought about all I got to do today.

    For centuries rulers imposed their chosen religion on subjects/citizens. The Founders wanted to move away from this tradition.

    Whenever a State promotes any specific religion in public institutions, in any way, however indirect and subtle, it is imposing that religion upon those citizens who are not of that religion.

    What part of this do you not understand, Chip?

    • http://ahalbert@smart-technology.net Allan

      A fallacious argument. Everything you don’t like can then be described as an imposition. That is what Progressives spend their time doing. Therefore, the Constitution, principles., morals, etc. get in the way.

    • kate8

      owldog, How is people practicing their natural right to free exercise of their faith, whenever and wherever they choose, without government interferrence, the same as government promoting a religion?

      Personally, I draw the line at being accosted and detained by zealots of any stripe. But praying on the steps of the Supreme Court, or at an other place, is not infringing on anyone.

  • owldog

    correction – meant “pretty wordy”

  • Emilio

    You right wing nutters are crazier than sprayed roaches.

    • JeffH

      I bet you thought long and hard for those words…

    • http://jorind@gmail.com Zackery

      (comment removed for offensive content)

      • Claire

        Zackery–People that spout profanity are not always one of the nice guys.

    • http://naver samurai

      Hey, why don’t you join your friends and go back south of the border where you belong. Gee, making a comment like that is so middle school. If I were to answer you, I guess “bite me” would suffice.

  • Arlen

    Amen Brother. Well said, do give up your vow. The only problem is that the liberals do not let the truth or facts blur their skewed vision.

  • Victor

    If do not argue with the foolish libs, you cannot give us the ammunition to fight back. Reading your article has better prepared me to go and put the libs back under the rock they crawled from under. Thank you.

  • Due Process

    Your analysis/argument is incomplete. Why have the courts imposed the protections of the 1st amendment on state actions? Because of the Due Process clause of the 14th Amendment. The U.S. Supreme Court interpreted the Due Process clause of the 14th Amendment as making the 1st Amendment protections applicable to state actions. Thus, the Court has determined that the Establishment Clause and Free Excercise Clause apply also to state actions. In summary, while the founders intended to allow States to govern themselves with respect to religion, speech, etc., the U.S. Supreme Court has interpreted the 14th amendment as taking away some of that power to self-govern.

    You should address this so your argument and analysis is complete.

  • marvin

    you know the differance in a liberal and a pig,a pig will eat gardage and a liberal exspouse,s garbage

  • Jonathan

    Let’s not try to be like Islam. Let’s get back to basics and not be misdirected, confused, or dismayed by liberal rhetoric.

  • Nancy

    It seems everyone is fired up and rightly so..The only way we will every resolve this mess is to FIRE everyone and start over. We have to take back our country…now, if we wait any longer this administration will flip the switch and we wouldn’t have any rights at all. If you want to get back to the founding principles of the beautiful country anyone who truly wants to serve, volunteers with a stipend upon getting voted in. They visit DC once a quarter for a couple of weeks to get things done. Otherwise they have jobs in the state they live in…That’s the way we they rid of the scum in DC. True patriots will serve for these United State of America..

  • ALFRED E EUMAN

    Debating or arguing with kindergarteners, is an act in futility!
    Progressives(Hillary now calls herself that, rather than LIBERAL)are nothing more nor less than LIARS out of the pit of HELL! Their head LIAR now holds the office of president of the United States of America.The only antidote for lies is TRUTH, and that is the one and only TRUE GOD JESUS CHRIST! All the rest is superflous “MUCH ADO ABOUT NOTHING”!

  • http://none John E.

    Chip,
    I appreciate your reevalution of your article last week but there was no need, you were right. The reader that sent you the letter was wrong, Saul of Tarsus (not Taurus) did not write any scriptures. God converted Saul on the road to Damascus as he was seeking christians out to either put them in prison or put them to death and he became known as Paul, the writer of the Holy Scriptures. What Paul said was; Bless them that persecute you; bless and curse not (Romans chap. 12, verse 14), the scripture he quoted was from Matthew chap. 5, verse 44. Because of his latter antics, Paul was a more radical preacher or writer than Matthew, Matthew was more ‘liberal’. The writtings that we need to search out and hold to are the ones by Paul in the first chapter of Romans and while they are at it look up the meaning of the word ‘reprobate’.
    This is how things get ‘misconstrued’ whether its the Bible or the Constitution of the United States, people don’t bother to read and study the facts before quoting or upholding laws. If someone was tearing your house down and molesting your wife and children, would you forgive, bless and pray for them or stop them? God would not, read your Bible because in his law, the Old Testament, Exodus chap. 15, verse 3 it states that; ‘The Lord is a man of war; the Lord is his name’. This is what is happening to America, they are tearing our house down and molesting our wives and children with their propaganda and we are doing nothing about it.
    You can put any meaning you want on the words ‘liberal or liberalism’ if you use the dictionary. Our country, the Republic, was based on conservative values and honor, established and ruled by a combination of Church and State, just ask ‘Ole George’. The problem is that America now has to many people that do not believe in the Church or the State because of liberalism, progressivism, racism, homosexualism, socialism, communism, Marxism, etc.
    The President, Congress, Senate or the House are not supposed to do ‘Anything’ unless they consider the wishes of the majority of ‘We the People’. The U.S. Supreme Court of our country does not uphold the U.S. Constitution, they do their best in most instances to tear it down and change it or make their own laws. Unless my memory fails me, the Preamble to the Constitution written by our forefathers and the Gettysburg Address spoken by Lincoln both uttered the words, ‘We the People’.
    All I can say is that if you get to the point that you believe to much into liberalism that you will fall for anything.

  • http://personallibertydigest robert williams

    robert says to chip have you read anywhere in the Constatution that a State can not Defend the Citisens of there State .the answer is no.all the Constatution Sayes abought the rule of Naturalization this is how you find what the Governments powers are and nothing MORE.get this Book CalledUnderstanding the Constatution By Cowin and Peltason,s Sixteenth Edition (Collage Standerd)This Proves Airazonas Law Is Lagetament.Read in the Constatution pg 474 of the above named Book the Constatution Article 1 section(8)starts with the Congress shell have the power toLay & collect TaxDuties to pay Debts &Provide for the Common Defence To Borrow Money on the Credit of the U S To Regulate Commerce To Establish An UnaformRule Of Naturalization And So On.these Powers only Consist of 18 powers the Gov Has t5he Rest is to the People or Indavitule States.Get the BVook through any College .

    • Marc

      PLEASE ! GO BACK TO SCHOOL !

  • Thomas G Kroger

    Bravo, Chip, for exposing this Liberal Lie. It is perhaps the Biggest Lie of our present age, certainly in this country. And by far the most destructive – society has yet to suffer all the ill consequences from the era of the Warren Court.

  • Thomas G Kroger

    (continued) We’ve come a long way from the actual doctrine, which that there shall be no test of religion for public office – to obliterating every surviving trace of Christianity from public life, as understood by the ACLU – including breaking off crosses in military cemetaries. If THAT is Constitutional, then you, me, every patriot ought to dig a six-foot hole in the ground and dive in!

    • Marc

      Who is breaking off crosses ? Post a link to show this.

  • Michael McDaniel

    Chip I pray for you to continue to learn and become (not go back) the beautiful future!

    • RV in AZ

      O.k. chip we know you are right so go ahead. Don’t stop now.

  • Dave

    It is clear that this was put into the constitution because of countries who were making laws about which religions could or could not be followed. Allowing the States to make these laws would completely subvert the spirit of the constitution.

  • Daniel

    I believe we are as responsible as the politicians for the situation we find ourselves in.
    Most of us have worked all our lives and never took the time to check out the statements that they were making when they were asking for our vote. As a result we took everything they said at face value, and like Obama, most of what they said was meant to get us to vote for them and not as an agenda for them to accomplish.
    We’re still doing that, so even if they’ve done us a great disservice, they promise something we want and we vote them in again without checking what they’ve done in the past. So unless the information is placed in front of our noses just before we go out to vote, we’ll do the same thing again.
    Even so I don’t know if they’d pay much attention to it, I met a young lady after Clinton was voted in for president, why she had voted for him; She responded that he was the best looking candidate.
    I think we need to have the voting record of every candidate published in every newspaper in the nation a month or two before elections. And the paparazzi could do us a much better service by tracking politicians instead of movie stars.

  • Brian L. Dietz

    The Tea Party people, Ron Paul’s group, and countless others are struggling against, liberals, progressives and statists of every description to restore our Republic. Then we have Chip Wood working with both hands to undermine the effort.

    I actually believe Chip means well. In his twisted little world he believes he speaks the truth. But, cherry picking facts, and then expanding them into a false reality gives the forces of evil exactly what they need to continue their destruction of America.

    Chip you are a sad fool. The fact that your foolishness resonates with so many other sad fools causes me to despair for the future of my beloved country.

  • E.J Vaughn

    We live in era where progressives used “deconstruction’ and “post-structuralism” to rewrite our history! Deconstruction is pointing out all the negatives and post-structuralism divides people into groups. Why is it that out of the 56 signers of the Declaration of Independence are only two mentioned in most text books? They being Jefferson and Franklin? We are taught that the Founding Fathers like these particular two will point out the least of religion, and are rich, elitist, and landowners. Never did I EVER learned until now that Samuel Adams was so poor he didn’t even have a suit to wear to Congress!! All his friends took up a collection to help him buy his very first suit!! The 56 signers of the Declaration of Independence came from all walks of life, including blacks!! Post- structuralism was infused to separate us, and it worked! They took out all the black founders who were around during the revolution. We don’t see pictures of whites and blacks together, don’t acknowledge the black heroes of Bunker Hill, Yorktown. I definitely never learned in school that the state of Massachusetts never had a time when blacks could not VOTE or women; they voted throughout the colonial period!!!
    So, I get very uneasy when I hear people speak of changing the Constitution because look at how much we allowed these “leaders” to change our history!!! It took the Founders 180 years (1607-1787) to put together the Constitution. There were many trials and errors, but after it was assembled, the United States was able to enjoy prosperity and peace among their land. This document not only changed the lives of the Americans but it became the admiration from around the world! SO, for those who keeps repeating the woes of ALL the Founding Fathers being slave owners and the such, research REAL history from before the 1900′s! Yes, times change, but not the condition of the heart of man.

  • Randy Brasch

    I fully agree with your statement that we need to elect members of the House and Senate who are “strict constructionists” and adhere to the original concepts of our Constitution. However, I have a hard time identifying any of them. Obviously, as you state, you won’t find them in the “liberal left.” But you won’t find them in the “radical right” – and I will never call them “Conservatives” – either. Maybe in the Libertarians. Any suggestions?

  • http://www.personalliberty.com Wildcat from Dallastown, PA

    Chip,
    Hang in there! Don’t let those Progressives and other related Liberal “Bag Brothers” & “Bag Sisters” get you down. You, like Fox News, Heritage Foundation and countless others need to keep the fires of true American patriotism stoked!

    Unfortunately a great number of American citizens fail to understand Jefferson’s letter to the Danbury Baptist Church or are simply ignorant of it. We must remember the colonists wanted to prevent their government from doing what England did when they created the Church of England. They did not want to allow their newly formed government to create the Church of America.

    The problem we are facing is the followers of Islam who want to destroy America from within by building Mosques and supplanting our laws with Sharia law. Their religion is a clear and present danger to the United States of America because the tenets of Islam are in contravention with our Declaration of Independence, our Constitution (especially the first amendment) and public laws prohibiting murder! The contents of their Koran along with their other holy writings demand them to kill Jews, Christians and all other infidels (non-Muslims). Other than Obama this is the primary threat to our personal liberties and freedoms!

  • del

    If all you athiests, agnostics and other non-believers are so secure in your beliefs…then why does our belief in GOD offend to the point you feel a need to silence US? Could it be that your uncertainty tortures your little minds…..the very idea that we could be right? That one day you might find yourselves burning in hell…..hummm….I’m just Saying!

    I personally don’t care if you choose to follow the LORD or not, that’s your right. Just as it is mine to believe in HIM. Guess you’ll find out in the end.

    • sheldon

      I don’t feel the need to silence you or squash your belief in a supreme being. If you want to erect crosses and nativity scenes on public property I’m fine with that too. However, I would like the same respect when it comes to the drafting and enacting of laws that govern us all. I’m uneasy with any law that has to be “justified” by any religious beliefs.

  • Kalli

    I am a white South African and amazed to read about al you idiotic BELIEFS It is a stunning revelation that you all Believe Not one american KNOWS they all BELIEVE That is why you cant see your country’s demise You have GONE UNDER, your ship sanked and you childlike still BELIEVE in so many gods, fairies and demons You are a troop of degenarated creatures,lower than most on earth You have no idea what the word human means and you are transformed into a specie of unreasonable intelectual animals. You are degenarated back to the pre-Humus Erectus stage,yet you BELIEVE,like the wolf believes he can catch the hare. All your knowledge and experiences are rubbish like your dollar and soon you will be an Empire Expired like the the Greeks and the Romans “………thus with violence shall that great cityBabylon be thrown down and shall be found no more at all” Rev:18

    • del

      Kalli,

      Don’t like it hhere? No one is stopping you from going back to South Affrica…..

      • del

        GOOD Riddance!!

      • Kalli

        Del, its like Chip said in my interpretation:” It’s a waste of time to talk to a fool(A BELIEVER). Who, dude, on earth told you I am “there”?You merely BELIEVE it! ‘cos yr world is so small as to include only yr america. You do not KNOW where I am but merely BELIEVE I am there/here. Likewise you believe it’s all well there. If you could only open yr eyes and look, you’ll see and KNOW America is gone. China and India surpassed you, Took you over, bought you out,demolished and humiliated you. You still believe in this great america and believe it can destroy China and India and the Muslims like you did with Hiroshima and Nagasaki. The Koreans gave you a good run for your money and to hang the poor Saddam is a far cry from calling your warlords heroes. You merely dance to the tune of your jewish dictators and you are so blinded by their political(religious) correctness (distortions)that the vission of your nation in totum, is so blurred you cant see that your Titanic is sunken, it’s ransacked by the Pirats of the Caribian You passed the point of no return and you drowned your god Neptune. Now he is no more able to hear your cry AND YOU CANT EVEN FLEE TO SA!!! You bow now to the god Democracy and you want to justify it by twisted, distorted and generalised Christian
        beliefs but i’m sorry SIR it aint gonna work 4 u no more!!

        • http://naver samurai

          Kalli, I don’t know where you went to school but you must have failed badly. Have you ever been to this great nation of ours? If not, then you don’t know anything about it and just need to shut the —- up and stay out of the conversation.

    • Pete2sail

      Kalli you almost sound like an intellectual and we have one in the Whitehouse — don’t compete White boy — just retreat to S. Africa where you are still searching for the word freedom — Pete

  • Delores Smith

    CHIP WOOD,
    Terrific article! Thank you. Chip, do you think you or someone on Personal Liberty News could present more information on the history of Executive Orders? I would love to find out how we stop this maniac from avoiding the checks & balances of the Constitution?
    Delores Smith
    Delores109@cox.net

  • Tierra Naomi Teneil

    Well sweetie, I hate to say this but you Blanco’s are all alike,…….you all complain and that is it,….you stand for nothing if you don’t take action. I got so disgusted at Ann Coulter for running down liberals as being losers, when all the time these people have been picking up ground for years. I reminded Coulter that Republicans/Conservatives were the big losers, because like her and you (chip Wood), your all talk and no action. I asked Ann, why all of them, from Savage to Limbaugh, and all the rest in between didn’t get together, and do something. After all, between all of you blow hards, you have to have an audience of 100 million people,……I asked, why don’t you all get together, and organize this vast audience into one mean machine,…..I said that right after Obama became the Preident elect. Now I ask you CW, how long have the liberals been lying about Church and State,…..many years and not one Christian really took a stand against it, they blah, blah, blah about it and did nothing and look where we are at now and what all that worthelss talking has done,….”NOTHING”. At the top of this article you have Christians reminding you to be nice to your enemy,……I don’t think Jesus wants sweetie pie cowards in his army like the ones who told you to kiss them forever. Paul basically said, give them ago, and if they refuse you, leave them and move on,….the old testement is full of war for victory,…..many of those wars were at the hand of God himself,…..Josua and Caleb were the only two out of ten spies the Lord favored when they went in to the promised land,….the other 8 spies were eliminated for cowardice,…its OK to love your neighbor up into a point,…..time for action Amigo and time for the Caca La Toro to stop!!!! I might add that, it is time to even stop trying to do it through the ballot box,…if you get my drift!!!

    • http://www.aillc.us Steve

      TNT,
      You said what I have been saying for years. Every voice you hear on the radio or TV is saying we will get them at the ballot box. That has worked so well for us in the past. Look at what we have now. It is going to take so much more that an election. That is what the talking heads need to be saying. We need to march on Washington and demand that the constitution be given back and if that don’t work, burn it to the ground.

    • American Citizen

      They pick up ground because they want to feed at the trough. It doesn’t bother them to pick the pockets of those who have to pay taxes. They’d better wake up before they have to wear the chains being forged by the liberals in government.

    • E.J Vaughn

      Tierra Naomi Teneil- mind you, I understand your frustration as to why and how we as a nation has gotten to this point. I too, have wondered the very same. Christianity does have different facets as to how one should handle different situations. There is a time and a place for all things under the sun…a time to act with boldness and authority, and a time to listen, and a time to answer in a gentle way. But, we do have a new group of people from ALL walks of life and beliefs that have come together to try to let Washington know that WE THE PEOPLE are going to give them a check and balance it’s called the TEA PARTY! Why do you think they get such a bad rap from the mainstream media? Why do you think most of the democrats are pulling a league against them since the Republicans gave them a platform to speak on their concerns? We all need to pull together for our country so that we can ALL be free to live as free people do and stop falling for devouring each other with “I’m right” and “Your wrong” propaganda! That is ridiculous! The only “right” we have is to get back to what our Founding Fathers wanted; for us to remain a free society and that is SMALL government. It is our right to have a say in our laws and way of life from the family, to the community, to the city, to our state, then to the federal government! They are to protect our laws and rights, can we all agree they haven’t done a great service to us?
      To KALLI- People in glass houses shouldn’t throw stones.

      • Pete2sail

        E.J. You are right snd we do need to keep our cool. This ObAmanation is no fool — I believe he is working for chaos in this country so that he can declare Marshal Law — and then God help us — Pete

      • Tierra Naomi Teneil

        Blah, blah, blah, sweetie,….all talk and no action,…..your like the Dodo birds of yester year, waiting and wanting to be devoured,….:) I say this in Spanish but you won’t understand it so I will say it in English,…..your feet are kicking you in your head,……meaning, your feet are controlling your brains!!

      • Kalli

        EJ you comment from the view of the disinformed Believer, you were taught, you learned this opinion about South Africans and you express your limited beliefs with distortion. The liberals are not your enemies, but your lack of knowledge, or rather frankly your plain stupidity See your founding fathers was Liberals who Liberated you from the slavery of christianity by changing your original beliefs Now you have such twisted, distorted and blurred beliefs and you KNOW nothing, as you only believe, for you know not that your “(The)Lord is a man of war” Ex 15:3, That your Jesus said:”Think not that I am come to send peace on earth; I came not to send peace, but a sword….and a man’s foes shall be they of his own household” Math 10:34&36 and “If any man come to me, and hate not his (founding) father(s), and mother and wife and children and brethren and sisters, yea and his own life also,he can not be my disciple” Luke14:26 and your god stated: “My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge…” Hos.4:6 This lack of knowledge(Euphemism of stupidity)is your enemy You are without knowledge like the Pharisees you clean the (Tea) cup for your party while yout Rome is burning But it is true what Chip started of with:”It is a waste of time to talk with people who cant hear, to try and show people who cant see and to teach people who only believe” (My interpretation)Now I can only bid you: Carry on Cowboy

        • http://naver samurai

          Kalli, you are wrong! Our founding fathers were christians. They believed in nature and nature’s God! Even in 1889 the SCOTUS ruled that this nation is a christian nation. Take your atheist, lib, nazi, skin head self back to Africa where you belong.

    • http://jorind@gmail.com Zackery

      How about “toro mierda” or even, “caca del toro” instead of “caca la toro”?

    • Pete2sail

      Senorita Tierra — It is Caca de Toro —- La is feminine and to the best of my recollection Toros had Mucho colgones unless they have been nuetered and then they would have made lousy bulls. You sound more like you should have been a bull and I do not say that disparagingly as you are muy Macho for a Macha

  • Terrence Snyder

    As The Great One Mark Levin says, “Liberalism is a religion”…meaning that those who believe in liberalism and socialism believe it like it is a religion. Sad really, but, after being around for a long time, I believe it is true. In fact, as Ann Colter says, liberals worship at the altar of abortion…the litmus test for liberalism…death of a defenseless infant…talk about sad…!!!! Liberals are destroying this wonderful country while we stand by and watch… Sure, wait till November…we might then get what’s left… All of those graves in Arlington, all the National Cemeteries, all the veterans who signed their lives on the line…all for this… Several years after 9/11, America elects a muslim non-and-un American president and a liberal congress who has an 11% approval rating to facilitate the downgrading of our country…and destruction of our economy!!!! Who would have believed it on 9/12/2001…????!!!! I still can’t grasp why…….except satan is happy…….

  • Mic

    Saul of TAURUS? Huh?

  • ONTIME

    LIBERALS LOVE TO TELL YOU ALL ABOUT WHAT THEY DO NOT KNOW AND THEN EXPECT YOU TO LISTEN AS THOUGH WHAT THEY HAVE TO SAY IS WRITTEN IN STONE….AXIOM

    The founding fathers were not deist or those that did not believe in God but they understood the difference in the phrase freedom of religion and not from religion and the idea of providence is stated more than once throughout their handiwork, inalienable rights are rights given to man from God….libs and atheist are confounded by this because there is no one greater than themselves.

    Libertarins have every right to bitch about the libs co-opting their names, just like the homosexuals have managed to revise the word gay and are trying to reinvent the word marriage, language stealing is a way to compromise your opponent.

  • http://www.minutewoman.net Gene Birkeland

    In response to a personal inquiry to the Librarian of the Supreme Court, on Dec. 2, 1975, Edward Hudon, recited for the inquirer 3 cases in which the Court had identified the United States as a Christian nation: Church of the Holy Trinity v. United States, 1892; Zorach v. Clauson, 1952, and McGowan v. Maryland, 1961. Also, Justice Story, 1833, said the “object of the First Amendment was not to countenance, much less advance, Mohammedanism or Judaism or Infidelity by prostituting Christianity, but to exclude all rivalry between Christian Sects.” page xii, In the Presence of Our Enemies, Ellen McClay.

  • Penni Eads

    This is mostly directed toward Denniso, who is disrespectful to our forefathers and to the constitution. The constitution was written for a God-fearing people, not a wicked people, so let us fear God and not man. The constitution cannot stand when the people turn away from God. Let us worship God with all our heart, might, mind, and strength that we might be protected by His omniscient, loving hand.

    • Pete2sail

      Penni — It should be God loving people — God is compassionate and gives us free will. If we abuse it we will get burned as in putting our hand in the fire — but God loving not God fearing — God does not want us to fear him — he wishes us well on our journey — Pete

      • Denniso

        Penni…I wonder if you’ve noticed that our ‘founders’ have been dead for a little while? Also,have you noticed that we have several later ammendments added to the original constitution? And, do you remember that Thomas Jefferson fathered several children w/ a very young black slave and didn’t free them upon his death?

        The ‘founders’ were flawed men(no women or blacks or indians of course)who did manage to write a pretty good document as a guide for the governing of the country,but they weren’t perfect and the original document sure as hell wasn’t perfect.

        • http://naver samurai

          Duhniso, duhniso, there is no physical evidence that he fathered children from his slaves. Just another lib lie to distort our history. True, our founding fathers have been dead a long time. Though this is true, but their spirit lives on in the Constitution. Why do you always play the race card? You must be some disgruntled person who lives in the hood and gets an unconstitutional welfare check every month.

          • Denniso

            It’s known to Jefferson’s family that he fathered children from Sally Hemmings and the white part of the family has now accepted them into the whole family. It is also a fact that he didn’t free his own black children from slavery on his death.

            My point, if I remember right, was that the founders were not divine and were humans w/ flaws like all of us. If you really think that the Sally Hemmings story is a liberal lie,you are hopelessly biased and jaded and ill informed. By the way, I like Jefferson…most liberals do. We just don’t give sainthood to the founders like most of the rightwing
            does.

          • libertytrain

            Denniso – I have to agree with you on that one – I’ve seen several interviews with the family over the years. I think it’s quite touching all-in-all, since he did love her very much. The docents talked about this at his home – Monticello, as well, last time I was there.

          • Denniso

            It is touching that the white descendants finally welcomed the black descendants of Jefferson into the family…it only took 200 yrs,but better late than never. Samurai will ignore your corroboration because he can’t stand the idea that one of the ‘divine’ founders would have had sex and children w/ a black slave….denial,denial.

  • Sylvia Keppy-Dow

    As others have said, don’t make that pledge again to not argue with Liberals… Your presentation regarding what our constitution says and doesn’t say is excellent.. May I suggest that you send a copy of this to every Senator and Congressman and do not forget the guy in the Oval Office. I believe he has and is doing imeasurable harm to this country.. We can only pray that in this coming election, those who follow conservative ideals will be elected in the House and Senate, and Obama’s reign of terror will be hampered. I can’t wait for the 2012 elections, when we can vote this Socialist out of office..

  • Bob from Socal

    Good job Chip! Keep fighting the good fight, until the race is won.

  • T bell

    Not only is the Federal Government supporting the stifling the freedom of religion by ignoring the free excercise clause, they are subtly promoting their own religion through government policy on education and science. Progressive secularism if you will, based on evolution theory of Darwin and to include the ecologic movement of enviromentalism . A faith based religion grown on science fiction with flawed conclusions. Knowledge without wisdom enlightenment and love will lead to destruction.

  • http://Verizon Bud G.

    Mr. Wood: Thank you for an excellent article and explaining what the Constitution actually says.

    The problem though is they will ignore you and continue to distort because that is their game. The good thing is they are only a small percentage of the population and the Independents are deserting them in droves. You know what comes next!

  • John Tapscott

    In the early 1980′s I lived in a small town on the border between New South Wales and Queensland, Australia. The whole country was suffering in the grip of an extended drought. The Premier of Queensland requested that all church congregations pray for rain on a particular Sunday. Late in the afternoon on that Sunday we saw the clouds roll in from the west all along the border. Heavy, drought-breaking rain fell……all in Queensland……not a drop in New South Wales.

  • Robert Berger

    Despite the hysterically exaggerated “The sky is falling” claims of many Christians, we still have religious freedom in America.
    All of us are free to worship as we choose or not to at all.Not a single American in our time has ever been persecuted merely for being a Christian.
    But unfortunately,many self-righteous Christians want more than freedom to adhere to the Christian faith. These people want to force the government to make laws based on THEIR religious beliefs,which is absolutely wrong.
    They would like to see homosexuals denied equal rights and even be persecuted.They would like to government to make laws denying women the right to choose an abortion,even if they lacked the means to take decent care of those as yet unborn children or a pregnancy would kill them or ruin their helth,or if they were the victims of rape or incest.
    Many would like to see foolish superstitious beliefs such as creationism taught in public schools as scientific fact.And require students there to participate in Christian prayers and Bible readings even if their parents are Jewish,Muslim,Hindu,Buddhist,atheist or agnostic.
    And to make contraceptives illegal,to ban men’s magazines,films and television programs they find offensive,and to force the government into our bedrooms. And they have the gall to demand “Limited” government!
    I’m not opposed to Christianity per se and have no objection to any one following this faith, but America is a nation of many religious beliefs,and there are now more atheists here than there were people at the time of America’s founding. We cannot allow religion to get power in America.

    • John

      Good God son, re-read the post. Nobody is saying anything about a religious take over of Government. What the post says is Government has no say in the matter, that it is up to the residents of the individual states. That is all.

    • Pete2sail

      And Robert we cannot let, Atheists, agnostics and or Homosexuals get power in these compassionate United States allow these facets to control us. We really have a bigger problem and that is the Power of the Federal government and in particular the Executive branch and the SCOTUS who are on a runawy course to power control us.
      You like so many people who only want to believe in your emotions rather than the true content of the Constitution. ” No law prohibiting the free expresion —-etc it does not say prohibiting religion altogether and that is where we are at now. Bring prayer back to schools, Exhibit the Ten commandenmnts which by the way profess followers of more than one faith and prohibit those that claim to be religions like Islam which is really a political, economical and last a religious way of life which they are trying to impose upon we God loving people — Pete Maniscalco

    • kate8

      So, Robert, you prefer to have homosexuals, lesbians, pornographers, pedophiles, abortionists and all manner of thieves and reprobates in control of our government.

      Yeah, let’s just keep having crude, rude and degrading stuff in our faces everywhere we look. Let’s get rid of the churches and silence the God-lovers! Let’s stop them from teaching their kids that they’re anythng but dumb animals to be exploited by the state! They just want to keep us from flaunting our decadence in their faces! What gaul! Crucify them!

      What has been called good will be called evil, and what has been called evil will be called good.

  • Jeremy Leochner

    Mr. Wood: I am a liberal and very proud of it. First let me assure you there are reasons for the idea of seperation of church and state. Its based on the freedom of religious expression. If we allow the federal or even state governments to make any law that favors or supports one religion then that government is effectively saying that other religions are either less signifigant or that they are false and not welcome. Its alright if a person has a particular belief in a certain religion but that does not give that person the right to publicly make a law proclaming theirs to be more important. Now whtever you may think of liberals I want you to know we are not all the same and we dont all think and feel alike. Just as conservatives are varied in their views so are liberals. Also I can assure you I am an open minded person. I only want my country to be strong and prosperous and for the people to be happy. I think everyone including you have good ideas for making our country better. And the only way to do that is to argue and discuss. So please Mr. Wood have arguments with liberals we’re not all bad and most are willing to comprimise if its for the sake of our country.

    • Pete2sail

      Jeremy — it my experience as an 85 year old conservative who has an untold amount of patience that you are the first Liberal that even admitted to wanting to compromise on anything. Secondly the Constitution is very explicit in saying that “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting the free excercise thereof; or abidgimg the freedom of speech —etc— Now Jeremy, what part of “making no law — PROHIBITING” do you not understand. Anyone who professes an accepted religion — accepted by contmporary society can do whatever they want with respect to practicing their religion, if it does not infringe on the rights of others. If they are denied this in any local, then the fault lies not with the Constitution but with its local enforcement. to deny people the right to put what ever religious icons or accepted statements the equal rights to do so would be an infringement. Athiests and agnostics have no place or right to deny the majority of us who do worship our God the right to do so anywhere and anytime as long it does not infringe on the rights of others — to deny this is a complete infringment on the rights of the majority of Constitutional People — Pete Maniscalco

      • Jeremy Leochner

        Well Pete to answer your question you are right that it is wrong to make any law prohibiting the right to express their religous beliefs. The problem is athiests and agnostics wether you agree with them or not are also expressing a form of religous belief. As an agnostic myself I am respectful of all religions and I encourage the followers of those religions to express their beliefs. My view isnt that people should not be able to express themselves. My problem is involving religion with government. It is great if you have a belief in a religion but if you connect that religion with the law or with government policy your infringing on the rights of those with different beliefs.

        • Pete2sail

          Jeremy — Thank you for a reasoned response to my comment and as for your being an agnostic which as I gather means you do not disbelieve in God nor do you believe in a Supreme being or a supreme intelligence. I respect your belief as I respect those that are strongly Christian or strongly Jewish or strongly anything as written word no matter in how many languages they are written nor all the intelligence we physically display here on earth can explain all the phenomena of existence and there young man is were I hope to give you somthing to ponder. I once wrote a poem and the main thought was that it is impossible to know all that there is to know but when our time comes we will know more. That is my faith Jeremy and in that faith I believe there is a power greater than all material existence as we know material things and part of that knowledge will be given to us when we leave this material plane. I wish you do not beieve that when we die that is the end,– as everything in the universe and in nature refutes that idea. Therefore where does that leave us. NOt a quandry really but a frame of mind and to me the frame of mind and the faith that there is someting more gives me serenty in a future- Without that future there is no hope and without that hope life is meaningless. I am serene in my faith and the spirit within me tells me that all will be well. Be happy young man and when your time comes to know more you will — Pete

  • coal miner
  • John

    I believe the only place you will find the exact words, “separation of church and state”, are among the 10 planks of the Communist Manifesto.

  • coal miner
  • Jim

    Chip,
    I agree with everything that you have said.
    Keep it up!
    Jim

  • Big Al

    Very well said Chip, now if we can only get the elected ones to understand the Constitution…
    Semper Fi

  • chuck b

    to me this whole argument arrives at one point, there are forces in this country that is hell bent to destroy the christian religion. they are fighting to remove every vestige of it from our society. if george bush has said nothing about being a born again christian, i doubt if he would have been hit with all the hate and the same goes for sarah palin.there is a constant barrage of mis-information regarding the church and the constitution, this country was founded by protestantism and its principles. we have been invaded by the islams, we have the brotherhood of islam an inbred sect and above all a muslim president. all this amounts to a sizeable force wanting to gain a majority in our country and install their sharia law. on the other hand we have the communist jews who emigrated from russia and brought their marxist views, they and their offsprings have gained considerable power, such as the aclu and southern poverty law center,the media and hollywood. they have been instrumental in removing any vestige of christ in our schools and government. they have used the civil rights laws to move their agenda and now if you say anything contrary you are branded by a name, racist, bigot and anti-semetic. there are no protestants on the supreme court and very few if any in this administration.
    the people of this country have died to help all these people, ww2, bosnia and the middle east and they are willing to do us in over our willinmess to accept them as in our christian belief.

  • E.J Vaughn

    John Tapscott, thanks for sharing. There is power in prayer!!! What we can’t fight physically, we are able to on our knees in prayer. I sure wished we would be asked by our leaders to pray for the oil spill and for guidance and wisdom for them to know how or what to do for our country. I know we can do it ourselves and I know many are and have been praying, but there is something about a LEADER humbly asking for us to help unite in prayer for the country that I think G_D honors.

  • Norm

    Well, thanks for the info Chip,I didn’t know all that about the first amendment.I would think the statement where the government is to not support or prohibit religions would infer separation of church and state.I could be wrong, though.

  • Peter

    I am neither liberal nor GOP. I am a Christian and have long been actively involved in politics because I believe no-one should sit on the sidelines yelling at the TV. If you want something changed, get your hands dirty! Politics is a very very dirty business, undeniably rotten to the core. There are very few elected members anywhere in the world who have managed to maintain any semblance of integrity once they become embroiled in this vicious circle of political life. Having said that, I don’t always agree with Mr Wood in all his articles, but this one is absolutely spot on! The only point I would challenge you on Mr Wood, is the fact that I see many posts on this site from both liberals and GOP supporters that are incredibly badly constructed, with little or no thought for spelling or grammar. How anyone can think they should be taken seriously when they don’t or can’t be bothered about simple spelling and grammar is remarkable!

    The other significant point I see from this debate, and one that few people really address, is that it is impossible to legislate to truly separate Church & State! What I mean is, every single one of us has our own set of belief systems, even if that is to call oneself an atheist. It’s still a belief system. Therefore, every person who becomes involved in the political system at any level, is colored by their own beliefs. They are not like a coat that you can hang on a hook when you enter the door of politics. Every political decision is made through the lens of each person’s beliefs and attitudes, regardless of the basis for those beliefs and attitudes. That is, I believe, the basis for the true wisdom of the first amendment!

    • JeffH

      Peter, may I take issue and ask you to step down from your pedestal for your comment:

      “I see many posts on this site from both liberals and GOP supporters that are incredibly badly constructed, with little or no thought for spelling or grammar. How anyone can think they should be taken seriously when they don’t or can’t be bothered about simple spelling and grammar is remarkable!”

      I find it rather arrogant and belittling of you to seemingly put yourself above those that either choose not to use good grammar or those that don’t posses the skills to do so. Just because one doesn’t posses good grammar skills, it shouldn’t seriously discredit ones comments, the content of ones comments will establish that.
      I’ll also point out you’ve categorized these posters as either “liberal or GOP”. I find very few on this website offering their support to the Republicans or GOP’s…I’ll leave you to ponder my comments…yes, I did use spell check…

      • Howard

        Right on, I’m probibly one of the worst when it comes to grammer but the last class I had in it was 35 years ago.

        • http://naver samurai

          I’m pretty bad at times too. Just think, I also served this country for 20 years.

    • Claire

      Peter–Regarding incorrect spelling and bad grammar: I have noticed numerous college grads that are not capable of spelling correctly nor are they able to compose a decent sentence. A far as math goes, they have next to nothing in their heads, and half of them do not know the multiplication table. They must use calculators. Therefore if you choose to “pick on” people regarding these issues, I think you should be sure to include just about everyone, not just a certain few.
      Everyone makes a typo from time to time.

      • Claire

        Peter– BTW, the words “no one” does not have a hyphen.

        • Claire

          Peter–See? I made a typo in my first post to you, it should be “As” no “A.”
          I believe we are all human, don’t you?

          • kate8

            Claire, criticizing spelling and grammar has a way of coming back to bite.

            I look at things I’ve posted and am astonished at some of the errors I’ve made. Brain glitches! And I do know better.

            But what the hey. Like my late hubby used to say, “Didja know what I was talkin’ about?”

          • Anna

            Actually Peter has a point as it is one that many educators make incessantly.

            They bemoan the demise of standards which were previously held as crucial
            in the recognition of an educated individual.

            Such people should also have the right to their opinions although Peter could have expressed his, I feel, in a slightly less derogatory manner.

          • Claire

            Yes, Peter does have a point. However, I am not the type of person that will demean anyone on this thread. We are what we are and no one is any better than anyone else. We all have our individual beliefs, we choose to follow our own paths and the life we want to lead. It is up to the individual to conduct themselves with civility. Sure, if someone responds to my posts unfavorably, I come back with a sharp retort BUT I try my best not to belittle them. In essence, “Let those without sin cast the first stone” and none of us can do this, including myself.
            At this point in time, and within the past 10-15 years, I am of the opinion that the majority of people learn if they want to. Today’s world of education is not like it was back in the 50s and earlier. Consider our youth of today. There are some that are willing to learn and others that could care less. Consider the quality of teachers that we have today. There are some good ones and there are others that do not care, just so they receive a paycheck. This is the norm for the average workplace. There are workhorses and there are showhorses.
            Consider the textbooks that states and school administrations choose. Numerous textbooks and what they promote does not appeal to me. Like everything else in this world, there are good and bad apples in every barrel. Some of the instructors at universities and colleges are rather “iffy” as far as I am concerned. And these people are teaching our youth of today. It is no wonder America is in the shape it is in.
            I can remember my school days very well. The youth did not “pass” if they had failing grades. Now it seems they “pass” the youth just to get them out of the class. The three “r’s” were pounded into my head. Spelling, handwriting, history–all the necessary book learning was taught. We were taught to realize the necessity of book learning. No ifs, ands, or buts. I attended a country school for the first 5 years, my teacher, Mrs. Cowhick, was wonderful. I will never forget her. I had my hands smacked a few times BUT I learned. I also remember that I locked her in the outhouse because I was mad at her. Needless to say, I sure got a spanking for that stunt. Our parents taught us right from wrong, and my teachers did the same back then.
            Our educational system has been on a downhill slide for many, many years. Nothing is like it used to be. It is futile to compare today’s educational system to yesteryear.

          • kate8

            Claire, phonics has struck a mighty blow to our beautiful language. I suppose it is to make it easier for non-English speaking immigrants to learn, but it obliterates the beautiful root origins and shades of meaning of our words.

            Language is more than just words. It gives color and life to our communications, and has profound impact on the level of intelligence and ability to discern and comprehend.

            Just another facet of the dumbing down of our nation.

    • http://?? Joe H.

      Peter,
      You start by saying you are a Christian, yet you judge peoples spelling and sentence structure. Ever heard of or read “Judge not lest ye be judged”????

      • Peter

        JoeH, what a marvelous thing it is when folks don’t actually READ what’s being said!
        Look in the original article.
        I was responding to Chip Woods’ mention of liberals’ inabilities in the area of spelling and grammar, simply mentioning that it’s not just the lib’s who make such errors or post comments without reading them back first. The hardest thing about any post to an online forum, or by email for that matter, is that it’s impossible to convey emotion accurately. To do so would require many pages of boring, qualified text just to make sure you’re not upsetting anyone.
        I believe that’s called politics these days?
        It seems also that following the thread above, many repeat posters have turned from criticizing my post at first, to agreeing with it! How about that then?
        Amazing also that nobody commented on the main points of my post. Perhaps I’m right?

  • Howard

    I think the real reason for any mention of religion by the founders was to prohibit any government from installing a national form of religion. We have to remember that one of the reasons that they left England was freedom of worship because King George decreed that everyone had to worship as members of the Church of England. I agree that the separation of Church and state is a myth, also I forget which founder stated the our form of government was basically designed for a Christian nation. Basically our laws are based in Mosaic law straight from the old testament of the Bible. I also can’t remember which founder stated that this form of government will not function without a morral citizenship. George Washington refered to the Constitution as being a product of the hand devinity, Samual Addams and many more founders were devout Christians and they were all not slave owners. Ther is to much history to cover here, so the bottomm line is that all Americans should get a real history of our nation through there own research and most will probibly by very supprised. God bless America.

  • Claire

    The 9/11 Health Care bill was shot down last night. It originally was introduced to the House by Republican Olympia Snowe 3 weeks ago. The Democrats liked the bill and they voted for it but the Republicans wouldn’t. So much for the concern for the health workers in the aftermath of 9/11. Isn’t it ironic that the Republicans shot down their own bill.
    On the Small Business Bill funding, the Republicans shot it down too. The Republican lobbyists are for the bill but the Republicans will not vote for it.
    I will not vote for any Republican now or in the future. They have shot themsleves in the foot.

    • Claire

      They have shot “themselves” in the foot. Literally.

    • eyeswideopen

      Claire, welcome to the Independent Party. I guess they didn’t think that any of the two million out of work, are repubs, who through no fault of their own are unemployed and need assistance, probably for the first time in their lives. Voting no for unemployement benefits, while giving the banks everything, is a crime. Do you think other repubs are waking up to their hatred of average Americans??? Hey, Florida is considering putting Rick Scott in as governor… he only committed fraud on medicare/medicaid in this state. The fine was 3billion, not million,but billion and the idiots want to hand over the state of Florida to him…. crazy isn’t it??

  • http://libertyalerts cindy goble

    i believe man was born into sin by one man adam & therefore will be saved by one man Jesus. Now, my next point is this is why there is so much confusion in our world today. Basically, the men in the 16th & 17th century believed in god that’s why they took the 10 commandments & god at his word & created a country that was free b/c th Lord God of Israel blessed them b/c of their belief. You know that today if man does not turn back to God we will lose that freedom to the czars in Congress & be in bondage like Pharoahs slavery 7 opression on God’s people. I believe christianity is no longer the priority of the people therefore the people will be ruled by their adversary the heathen countries of opression.

  • jopa

    Jeffh; Very good response to Peter .I knew sooner or later I would find something we would be in total agreement with.

    • JeffH

      Occasionally we all can agree on some things.

  • Benb

    Wow! There’s been a lot of responses to Chip’s article since I read these this morning. Throughout the day, I’ve been thinking about all of the different responses to what I believe is an awesome Constitution. Like it or not, it’s the oldest running one in the world. I mean, one that really works for all the people of this land.

    But some of us are missing what is really happening in the White House. Have you noticed that someone is trying to change everything that we’ve always stood for? Obama no longer wants us to be the greatest nation in the world, he wants to divide the nation, destroy the economy, destroy our industries, etc., etc. What do think is next? Well, let’s see. Let’s go to New York City and to ground zero and see what’s going on there. Yes, there are plans to build a mosque there, and did you notice how much the Obama family embraces the Muslims of the world? Can I make a prediction here? If we allow this president to keep going with his plans, we will soon see Sharia Law and it won’t matter one bit if we believe in separation of church and state or not. Have you seen any Muslims complaining about our issues? They’ve been quiet on everything so far. All they are waiting for is for the president to make whatever he says as “the law” and we’ll really be in big trouble. Like I read someone say, who admits to be a pagan, what do you care if someone says Jesus in public. It’s a free nation, right? I would worry more about people who swear and use ugly words in public or in front of children.

    As we continue with this issue, Obama is sitting in the White House or somewhere on vacation, laughing his head off. Because, what’s next to come, is going to really take people by surprise.

  • Kristoffer Martin

    I’m amazed at the arrogance of this thread (yet another sent to me by my grandmother who convinced that several conspiracy theories are true that the there is a “liberal agenda” to destroy our country…gah!). First off; you must have ignored the First Amendment,”Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances”, when you stated that there is no provision in the constitution for the separation of Church and State. The very first thing said in the first amendment is Congress shall not make any laws that are in respect of any established religion. That means no laws, no political action, can be made in the name of a religion, unless it is to protect that religious body’s rights (ie; the people that are part of the religion).

    What more the most well known Framers of the US demanded a separation of the Church and State to ensure that nothing like what happened in the UK would happen again. This is common knowledge and basic history.

    Secondly; you say that all law making powers lie in Congress. This is fallacious; Article 1 Sct. 1 All legislative powers herein granted shall be vested in a Congress of the United States, which shall consist of a Senate and House of Representatives. And then Article 1 Sct. 7 Every bill which shall have passed the House of Representatives and the Senate, shall, before it become a law, be presented to the President of the United States; if he approve he shall sign it, but if not he shall return it, with his objections to that House in which it shall have originated, who shall enter the objections at large on their journal, and proceed to reconsider it.

    Your assertion that the President has no law making rights is false.

    Article 3 Sct. 2 Section 2.

    The judicial power shall extend to all cases, in law and equity, arising under this Constitution, the laws of the United States, and treaties made, or which shall be made, under their authority;–to all cases affecting ambassadors, other public ministers and consuls;–to all cases of admiralty and maritime jurisdiction;–to controversies to which the United States shall be a party;–to controversies between two or more states;–between a state and citizens of another state;–between citizens of different states;–between citizens of the same state claiming lands under grants of different states, and between a state, or the citizens thereof, and foreign states, citizens or subjects.

    This very section means the Judicial system has the right to over turn a law if it deems it unconstitutional; so long as it is brought to the courts in the manner of a controversy (ie lawsuit). So while laws can be made by Congress and the President has to approve of them for them to become law on the first turn around; the Judicial system has the right to overturn such laws if they violate the constitution and are brought forward in a form of controversy.

    But wait, you also said “Our Founding Fathers never wanted to see any such thing. And they would be appalled to see how the courts in this country have deliberately twisted, distorted and abused the wonderful document they created to strip all vestiges of religious belief from our public life.” How DARE you assert your opinion in the face of what our very Founding Fathers have said?

    Thomas Jefferson: “Shake off all the fears of servile prejudices, under which weak minds are servilely crouched. Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call on her tribunal for every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear.

    The will of the people is the only legitimate foundation of any government, and to protect its free expression should be our first object.

    The policy of the American government is to leave their citizens free, neither restraining nor aiding them in their pursuits.

    No man has a natural right to commit aggression on the equal rights of another, and this is all from which the laws ought to restrain him.

    And the day will come, when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the Supreme Being as His Father, in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva, in the brain of Jupiter.

    The god who gave us life, gave us liberty at the same time: the hand of force may destroy, but cannot disjoin them.

    The majority, oppressing an individual, is guilty of a crime, abuses its strength, and by acting on the law of the strongest breaks up the foundations of society.

    The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others. But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods, or no God. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg.

    The two enemies of the people are criminals and government, so let us tie the second down with the chains of the Constitution so the second will not become the legalized version of the first.”

    Thomas Jefferson said all of the above; he is one of the writers of the Constitution and one of the writers of Declaration of Independence. In some senses he is one of the greatest people we can call a Framer and Founding Father of our country. Yet you ignore his points on the separation of church and state? You even deny his points by making the over generalization that you used? Yet you call us Liberals untrustworthy?

    How about George Washington?

    “Of all the animosities which have existed among mankind, those which are caused by difference of sentiments in religion appear to be the most inveterate and distressing, and ought most to be deprecated. I was in hopes that the enlightened and liberal policy, which has marked the present age, would at least have reconciled Christians of every denomination so far that we should never again see the religious disputes carried to such a pitch as to endanger the peace of society. [George Washington, letter to Edward Newenham, October 20, 1792; from George Seldes, ed., The Great Quotations, Secaucus, New Jersey: Citadel Press, 1983, p. 726]

    There is nothing which can better deserve our patronage than the promotion of science and literature. Knowledge is in every country the surest basis of public happiness. [George Washington, address to Congress, 8 January, 1790]

    Religious controversies are always productive of more acrimony and irreconcilable hatreds than thsoe which spring from any other cause. [George Washington, letter to Sir Edward Newenham, June 22, 1792]

    If they are good workmen, they may be from Asia, Africa or Europe; they may be Mahometans, Jews, Christians of any sect, or they may be Atheists…. [George Washington, to Tench Tighman, March 24, 1784, when asked what type of workman to get for Mount Vernon, from The Washington papers edited by Saul Padover]

    .I beg you be persuaded that no one would be more zealous than myself to establish effectual barriers against the horrors of spiritual tyranny, and every species of religious persecution. [George Washington, to United Baptists Churches of Virginia, May, 1789 from The Washington papers edited by Saul Padover]

    The blessed Religion revealed in the word of God will remain an eternal and awful monument to prove that the best Institutions may be abused by human depravity; and that they may even, in some instances, be made subservient to the vilest of purposes.”

    On the matter of laws in states and potential uniformity; while our founders may find it obtuse for some laws to be the same, the fact is they’d more than likely rather see a uniformity and a unity of the states. What more they would never agree to antiquity rather than progression. Many of the laws that the conservative side of the political veil seem to be fighting against are matters of rights that affect people in all states and are no longer the burden nor the right of the individual state to decide upon. (An example of this is the LGBT rights movement~ which interestingly is far older and longer standing than either the woman’s rights movement and the black rights movement which have already concluded to a great extent.)

    Finally, on socialism. What is most striking is your heavy reliance on the fear of socialism, which is unfounded and probably based on a 20+ year old Cold War idea about communism and the form of socialism that existed under it. I find time and time again in these discussions that people, such as your self, who spew the pro-capitalist idealism to know far less about socialism than they let on and what is worse, sadly, is that these people tend to blame the current state of affairs and the zeitgeist of the US on socialists rather than the real culprits; capitalist loving nimrods who destroyed a simple system out of greed.

    • Normal Guy

      Kristoffer

      Well said, reasonably stated and really refreshing.

  • AnhydrousBob

    With all due respect, Chip, I still think the founding fathers intended to separate the church from the state (the Federal – since it is the federated government being created by the Constitution). Is this just semantics we are arguing, here?

    All the points you made about states rights and each one choosing their own path is true, and I think it was a wonderful plan. (Didn’t Jefferson include the same language in Virginia later in life because he understood the original was intended only for the federal?)

    However, when you parcel out worship and religious activities as not being under the jurisdiction of the federal government are you not separating it? Is that not exactly what Jesus did, “Render unto Caesar … ”

    Perhaps I am just not getting it. When I see church and state as being separated, I think that is good. To me, it just means we will not try to legislate morality (State over Church), nor will we use the power of the state to achieve Christian aims (Church over State). The founders understood the long history of such abusive relationships from the examples of European history.

    Can a Christian person want any government to be anything other than “laissez faire” with regards to his liberty in worship? I consider that the whole concept of religious freedom is an extension of the morals the founders had due to their Christian and Deist beliefs. Without Free Will what is Christianity? A non-coercive government is the only compatible one.

    I think the issue we should be addressing is – Why is the government controlling so much, anyway? Prayer in school – not an issue if there were no PUBLIC schools. Creches on PUBLIC property – why is that necessary to the success of Christianity? The 10 commandments on the court’s wall – why are the courts PUBLICLY owned? Going to war and KILLING your fellow human – it seems we do it all too readily these days – and taking my tax dollars to do so, thereby making me an accomplice in the deed.

    It seems that the founders drew the line where they did to allow the federal state to render its just functions and allow individuals to render their personal Free Will choices in matters of God.

    Since our government is a contrivance of men, with certain limited powers, why not separate it from interfering with non-governmental things? If it were chained back down to it’s original size and intention would we even be having this discussion?

  • Benb

    I have nothing against you, Kristoffer Martin. You don’t get it. Stop listening to NBC, CBS and ABC and all those mass media stations. They are only telling you what they want you to hear. Yes, my line does sound like a conspiracy theory, doesn’t it? But if you’ve really been watching and listening more closely to events that have been unfolding around this country, you’d be more observing of issues that have been making changes without any laws making them happen. It irks me to no end to see the Democratic Congress and House of Representatives pulling off things that none of us could ever pull off in real life. Look at all the bums in Congress who haven’t paid their back taxes. I’ll bet you that you couldn’t last more than a year in real life before the IRS came knocking at your door. This is just one of the little things that we seem to ignore. There are many more things that have slipped through the cracks since Obama became president. And he won’t even provide us with a real birth certificate to prove that he’s American. Talk about snubbing the Constitutional law in order to become the president in America. He broke that rule, so why wouldn’t he continue breaking law after law until he gets what he wants? The Muslims have tried to take over Great Britain and Australia with similar tactics. In Great Britain, they actually got into the working process of the country and tried to enforce Sharia law. And you’re trying to tell me that we can’t do this or that to the Constitution because of this rule or that one? Don’t you remember what Hitlet did in Germany? We have a lot more crazier things to worry about right now, and that is, to get rid of Obama. If you’ve been listening to the left wing news stations lately, can I recommend that you just keep your eyes on what Obama is doing and then make your opinions.

  • Russ errett

     There has been a lot of debate about the separation of church and state, but missing from the debate
    is civilization.
    But what is civilization? According to Webster, 1. Civilizing or being civilized 2. The total culture
    of a people, period etc. 3. The peoples considered to have reached a high social development. Civility;
    1.politeness 2. Courtesy 3. A civil or polite act.
    Are we really civilized? If you said yes you haven’t read the newspaper or listened to the radio or
    watched TV for a while.
    In order to solve any problem, the cause of the problem must be found. I have chosen to start with
    our ancestors before they became civilized.
    If we look at today’s wild animals, we find that anything goes. They are selfish, greedy, deceitful,
    and anything else that promotes their survival. They also use violence to establish a “pecking order or their
    attempt to become the alpha male. Is human behavior any different?
    Today’s humans have a great imagination. Look at all the stories that have been written such as
    Harry Potter, Wizard of Oz, Star Trek, and many, many more. Did our ancestors possess that trait?
    When and how did civilization begin?
    Some form of communication had to be in place so as to transmit the belief of one generation to the
    next. Just how did the beliefs get started? Thunder and lighting can be pretty menacing, and not
    understanding nature, assumed that a spirit had caused it and that it was because of their action that
    displeased the spirit. As time went on more and more phenomenons were seen as caused by spirits which
    modified their actions. Because of their beliefs, “a crude form of religion” civilization was started..
    By the time recorded history was started religion was well established. And each nation had their
    own religion. With the same ideology the people had no problem with celebrating religious holidays. There
    was no one to complain that it was held on government property.
    When Christianity first appeared there was little tolerance for the new religion. As a matter of fact
    there was little tolerance for any thing new. Up to this time, religion was government sponsored and would
    continued until our constitution. Our founding fathers took the government out of religion while allowing
    religion in government. “Congress shall make no laws respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting
    the free exercise thereof;”
    Even today, religions are keeping civil in civilization that is most religions. After all, what we
    believe in guides our lives. Civilization hasn’t been around long enough that we can eliminate intensive
    training to subdue our animal instincts.
    Multi-culture and diversity are fine if we develop a thick skin. Our country is a republic were the
    majority rule with protection of the minority. Sometimes the minority rule through the miss reading of the
    constitution. When the minority wants the majority to stop a pageantry etc. and the only reason is that it
    taxes their sensitivity. Then harmony is put on the back burner.

    • Denniso

      Religious people of ALL types can have as many pageants as they want to. They can pray day and night and live in church if they want. They,sadly,can indoctrinate their kids w/ whatever nonsense they please and celebrate any myth as well.

      What they can’t do is use anything connected to tax dollars to practice their religion. Why? Because some of those tax dollars come from people who don’t believe in whatever religion it may be and don’t want their taxes used for another’s religious practice. We avoid religious war if we keep religion out of gov’t and all it pertains to.

      • American Citizen

        How about our tax dollars being used for things religious people don’t believe in, such as abortion? They don’t want their children to be indoctrinated in the government schools, yet most have no choice as they are forced to because they can’t afford the alternative except to home school. Yet those are the parents who are not equipped to teach their children at home as they are busy working just to stay alive. Every dollar allocated to education should follow the children and let the parent decide where to send the child to be educated, even if it’s a private or religious school. They pay taxes, too.

        • http://?? Joe H.

          American Citizen,
          I was thinking the very same thing. Like the fact that the liberals are chomping at the bit to get government funded abortion on demand entered into law!

          • Denniso

            You guys say you love the constitution, and the constitution sets aside religion as something different from other aspects of society.
            It would be ludricuous to expect to have your tax dollars spent only the way you favor. Many liberals/pacifists have gone to jail for not paying taxes because they don’t want their taxes going to support war.

            Why don’t you complainers do the same? You don’t like how your tax money is used,don’t pay and be willing to go to jail. If you really feel as strongly as you say you do,then show your courage. Isn’t it interesting that it’s usually pacificsts willing to go to jail,and not the tough talking rightwingers?

  • Wordwaryor

    Many people do not know that the same Thomas Jefferson who penned the words Separation of Church and state in a letter to Baptists…. assuring them that the Federal Govt. would not interfere with their religion ! was the same President Thomas Jefferson who Ordered that church services be held in the Federal Capital building during his Presidency… and who also personally attended those worship services.

    The capitol building at the time was not the same as now, but it was the Federal Capitol building. AND President Thomas Jefferson also Ordered that an orchestra accompany those worship services, and that the members of that orchestra be paid out of the public treasury for their services to produce the music that accompanied the Worship.

    Clearly he had quite a different understanding of the place of religion in government and in government buildings.

    IN fact ALL of the signers of the Declaration of Independence, All of the signers of the Federalist Papers and ALL of the signers, and non-signing delegates to the Constitutional Convention were of the Christian Religion of various sects, and were religious men.

  • Sassy Lou

    Yay!…Because nothing makes more sense..by sending more jobs overseas..causing less people to be paying into the pot…which thus causes the government to go after the people who have something to take. However, if the “wealthier and business owners” finally get it that they are the next on the “target” to be moved to the lower class…or same as the “last Scrooges” alive…struggling just to stay in the upper middle classes..blaming the poor….just like the classical scrooge..they will realize they are the NEXT in line to be overshadowed and overtaken by the larger multi-national corporations who want nothing more than to run their businesses into the ground so they can get more control over the planet!

    Start looking up people..and I mean above the family owned mom and pop businesses in your community..looking below..you will find no answers there.

    Capiche!

  • David Navarro

    Excellent explanation of the truths and facts.

    One minor correction, it is Saul (or Paul) of Tarsus [not Taurus].

    But thanks for the explanation of the true meaning and intent of the Constitution and showing us plainly and briefly how this has been distorted to the detriment of our country.

    DE Navarro
    NavWorks Press

  • RandyH

    Well i was going to watch the movie the crazies but after reading some of the comments most of the crazies are here.

    GOD Help us “ALL”

  • Joe K

    Any one interested in a great history lesson concerning the Founding Fathers views on religion and the debate over ‘separation of church and state, check out these audio files:

    http://www.thebible1.net/audio/silencingofgod/

  • slickporsche

    I was going to comment, but now I do not want to be part of it. On second thought, You are all wrong and maybe a little crazy. You have all lost the battle, and lost your republic! It is gone! You are however entering a new phase in human history that is a repeat of another time. Can you comprehend that? You are witnessing the death of a once great nation, and the birth of a sorry piece of S–T. Good luck with your new turd.

    • dan of arizona

      Hey slick
      the last time you said it you were responded to, not this time you are being ignored. give it a rest

  • Benb

    If I may add something to what has already been said from the beginning to the end here, I would like to add an observation that I have that seems to be somewhat similar to what happened in the Old Testament of the Bible. If you can recall, most nations back in those days, feared to have a battle with Israel because Israel’s God was the God of heaven and earth. Israel’s God took out whole armies without Israel even having to lift a finger to help. In what is going on in America today, I see the same comparison going on. People in America, through left-sided media talk, are trying to take this same God out of America. Now, the reason for this should kick up a red flag in that something else is under foot here. Does the word God really offend people? I’m not so sure that this is the real reason at all. I firmly believe that there are people/nations who want to take America over and the only way they will be able to do that is to take God out of it. Since we have allowed these people to destroy our nation from within, this could soon happen to us. Many of our issues are surface issues and the real one is for the survival of America. Are we going to allow these people/nations to take over without our even lifting a finger to defend ourselves? Americans, we need to pray to the God of Israel or it will be too late for us all.

    • American Citizen

      Economically, thanks to Obama and his deficit borrowing, we already have been taken over.

  • Pantherjim

    Conquer and Divide, create division among us, create a so called religion(s) and a belief system that either includes God (Jesus/Yeshua) or not. Satan (aka Lucifer)is very clever and subtle. Our Founding Fathers were right on with this nation’s founding documents, but like everything else this nations ideas and principles was infiltrated many years ago by people (liberals,democrats,socialist,republicans,so on, so forth,etc.) who basically sold out to the system (Satan’s system). Even though this particular article was about the separation of church and state and the misrepresentation of such, but really in a nutshell, it is a attempt to separate us from GOD which is ultimately the decision that each one of us makes. If some of you decide not to believe in God/Jesus or believe in some other form of worship or believe, then it is not my pay grade to either judge you or condemn. That is God’s job not mine or anybody else. But keep in mind that all of us on earth are God’s children and we are all saved if we decide to accept it or not and we all know what that gift that God gave each one of us was. With that said I bid you all farewell and may you all find peace some day!

    • Denniso

      First, there is no Satan/Devil. We humans create our own Heaven and Hell right here on earth…war,famine,fraud,greed,destruction of nature,needless slaughter of animals at our mercy,abuse of children…

      Secondly, the Old Testament is violent and vengeful much as Christians complain that the Koran is. The Old Testament is not Christianity,which is supposed to be love,peace,compassion and helping of your fellow man. How so many people call themselves Christian and then spew hate and violence is beyond me and many others
      w/ their eyes open. It’s the height of hypocrisy and those phony ‘Christians’ should be laughed out of intelligent society.

      • Vicki

        Denniso writes:

        “… How so many people call themselves Christian and then spew hate and violence is beyond me and many others w/ their eyes open. It’s the height of hypocrisy and those phony ‘Christians’ should be laughed out of intelligent society”

        We should not limit that to just the people who call themselves Christian. All people who spew hate and violence should be laughed out of intelligent society.

        Here is a video of 2 groups. Which group should be laughed out and which group is the MSM trying to get laughed out.

        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JfjNYqkhMlY

      • alpha-lemming

        First…. agreed, there is no “embodiment” (aka a guy with horns living in Mona Loa) of evil….. but there IS evil!!

        Second…. Syntax error, there is no Christianity in the Old Testament because??? Think about it… almost there… YES!! There was no Christ!! That’d be akin to renaming Marxism… oh I don’t know… Dennisoism???

        • kate8

          alpha, while Christ was not yet born in the OT, there are numerous referrences to His Coming.

          The OT is filled with prophecy of His birth, life and death. While He was not yet incarnate, He did still exist in Spirit.

          • alpha-lemming

            Thanx for that…. I was trying to stress that Jehova-OT IS a God of war, and the “New Covenant” is when we began appealing to our better angels. By definition… I don’t think you can refer to an OT mindset as “Christian”. Thanx again!!

        • Denniso

          Lemming…my point is that the Christian bible has the old testament in it,yet it is fundamentally different from the new testament which preaches love and compassion. Most rightwing Xtians who preach hate and meaness should look to the ‘Christian’ part of the bible and ignore the old testament,which has as much violence and hate as what they complain about in the Koran.

          • http://naver samurai

            Duhniso, just be quiet and go back to your mother’s basement!

          • Denniso

            My mother died 5 yrs ago…

      • Kim

        No Denniso, the Old testament is not Chritianity, it is Judaism, it was God showing man that they could not live by a law of 616 items. Yes Christianity is supposed to be love, honor, truth, understaanding, and so on, and few find that. No Christian is perfect, and should own up to that fact, What Jesus taught, if followed by all, would bring peace without war. Religious wars are very foolish at best, but man really has no hope on his own, and is heading to what most people think is best, a one world Government, all you have to do is look at the facts and see it is almost here, and by the way, that is Bible prophecy from the Old and New Testaments. And by the way, all I am saying in the above post is that we all are Americans and that Should be first and foremost, no Name in front of American ( not African, Hispanic, Irish, or anything else) just Americans. Dr. King stood for the rights of all Americans not just for the blacks. It has taken way to long for some to understand this. I well know that minorities have had a hard time, that is why our constitution states that all men are created equal, the word man also includes (woman) “from man”!, but due to the nature of (white) man in this country wanting power over everybody, and, everthing, including women, things didn’t work out that way. You see this is the very thing that has most Americans worried about the way this country is foing. When you look at all of the others that tried to take from the rich and give to the poor, the governmental leaders were the only one who had anything, everyone else had just what the government wanted and if they complained they were either throw in jail or killed. I doubt that this is what so called liberals really want, but if you take a good look at the leaders today and see who they surround themselves with, they are the very people which hated the police, and the establishment (government), and even the so called straight families back in the late 1960′s and 1970′s. This are the people that Obama looks up to, all you have to do is check the facts. They called themselves “weathermen” and they are the very professors that taught Obama, and most of his advisors. They wanted to get rid of our government and replace it with a dictator. IN saying if people hate America, they should go to the countries that they put before “American” I am not just refering to minorities, Like the Oklahoma bombing, these were white supremeists, that hate America and what it stands for. That is what Hitler was, looking for the supreme race, just palin stupid. No I am not a liberal, nor am I a rightwinger, I do try to understand, I do not hate anyone, but I do feel sorry for those in this country that have been brainwashed into believeing lies from bothj sides

    • Normal Guy

      How about Hindu gods, how about Taoism, Buddhism, Islam, Confucianism, Judaism, Shintoism, Deism…

      These religions did not form as a result of some fifth coloum strategey aimed at dedstroyingthe US. Their followers are as convinced that there beliefs are great and correct. Extreme positions regarding faith lead to death and destruction.

      Your beliefs are not universal and you should respect those that believe otherwise, as they should respect you.

  • American Citizen

    There are many parts of the world who have never heard of the Bible or Jesus Christ. It’s for God to sort out and judge each of us as to how well we have lived our lives in relation to His creation and our fellow man. However, if anyone has heard of and read the Bible and learned about Jesus, if it up to the individual to accept or reject. Faith is a gift to be accepted or rejected. But I believe those who reject the gift will have a rude awakening when they die. Jesus spoke about those with hardened hearts as to their ultimate fate.

  • ANDREW POPOVIC

    THERE IS ONLY ONE THING WRONG WITH YOUR INANE RANT ABOUT THE SUPREME COURT. THEY ARE PUT INTO THIS POSITION BY THE PRESIDENT AND RATIFIED BY THE SENATE AND CONGRESS–SO LATTER GIVES ITS ‘BLESSING’ AND THUS THERE APPROVAL AND IS AS YOU STATE ‘BY THEIR POWER’. THE RULINGS OF THE COURT DON’T THE LAW, THE PRESIDENT, SEANATE, AND CONGRESS DO. THEY ‘USE’ THE COURTS RULING AS AN EXCUSE. AS IN ROE VS WADE TO CHANGE THE ABORTION LAW. THE SUPREME COURT HAS BECOME ‘THE WHIPPING BOY’ AS CATALYST FOR THE THREE PARTS OF THE GOVERNMENT THE MAKE CHANGES IN THE LAWS. (IT IS NOT NECESSARY TO ACT ON THE COURT’S RULING!!!

    bUT THE MOST IMPORTANT PART IS THE RELIGION FACTOR WHICH, IN THE CONSTITUTION, PLAYS A SIGNIFICANT PART. BUT WAS THEN WHEN MOST AMERICANS PRACTICED THEIR FAITH. IT WOULD BE AN EDUCATED GUESS THE PRACTICING SO CALLED
    CHRITIANS WOULD HARDLY BE 30% (NEVER MIND SURVEYS WHERE MOST PEOPLE IDENTIFY THEMSELVES AS CHRISTIANS BUT THEY ARE NOT PRACTICING). THERFORE, ARE WE A SECULAR OR SPIRITUAL SOCIETY? THE ANSWER IS BOTH BUT WEIGHTED ON THE SECULAR SIDE.

    RELIGION HAS BEEN THE CAUSE OF 99% OF WARS SINCE BEGINNING OF TIME. EVEN THE SO CALLED PSEUDO WAR IN IRAQ AND AFGHANASTAN HAS BECOME A RELIGIOUS WAR AGAINST MUSLIMS WHO ARE FIGHTING THEIR OWN RELIGIOUS REBUTTAL.

    ‘LIBERALS’ ARE THE TRUE FIGHTERS OF ‘FREEDOM’–CONSERVATIVES ARE STIFLERS OF ‘FREEDOM’ BECAUSE THEY PROMOTE BEHAVIOR ACCORDING HOW THEY INTERPT THEIR LAWS AND THERE IS NO GIVE. oUR WAY OR THE HIGHWAY. wELL LIVING IS NOT BLACK AND WHITE BUT GREY–HOW MANY DIFFERENT VERSION OF THE BIBLE EXIST AND HOW DIFFERENT IDEAS COME JUST ONE PARAGRAPH. THUS CONSERVATIVES HAVE BECOME HYPOCRITES BECAUSE THEY ESPOUSE MYRIADS OF IDEAS THAT ARE BEST DESCRIBED AS LIBERAL!!!

    • Anthony

      Obviously, you haven’t read Hamilton’s Curse. Your idea about the Supreme Court is slanted at best.

  • Tierra Naomi Teneil

    America’s enemies,…..who are they? Lets see, the number one enemy in my opinion is our government(even more so now with Obama in office) The 2nd group is the Media. The 3rd group is the ACLU, planned Parenthood, CFR, Club of Rome, Trilateral Commision, Illuminati and etc. The fourth group are the 33% involved in drugs, the Dodo birds of America. Straigten out the government, and when that happenes, if ever, go after the rest and make them accountable for there behavior!!!

  • http://herringtons.home.mindspring.com lighterknot

    If Lincoln had seen the future he might have said; “with talk radio, TV, the pulpits of religious propaganda, advertising and the net; you can fool most of the people all of the time” an not to worry those who aren’t fooled are helpless.

    This blog is a strenuous effort to spread hate and keep the critical mass separated and impotent. They are frightened to death that “We the People” will become wise to their ways and become one voice.

    The net is a frontier; anarchical and free, full of snake oil peddlers and honest info; the establishment those who are making a killing are afraid of our unity.

    Judging from this thread I don’t think they need worry…religion is a heavy addiction to throw-off – even in the face of pure fact. It is certainly faith based and established on the flimsiest con ever perpetrated on the ignorance of man.

    The Jewish God has never come; so the Jews are seekers of god and truth. As such they send prophets as needed to write the scripts, start new movements, put on the plays and movies and make the music we dance too. I recommend you read God and the Jews. You might want to return to paganism it’s about two steps backwards.

    Now why don’t we just establish the government religion of this country “Jewish” in every other aspect it is already; I’m convinced they’re the chosen people their philosophies are our daily bread.

    Now if you can’t buy Judaism as our official religion – stop trying to make it Jesus Christ the founders knew what they were doing – else they would have established an official religion.

    • chuck b

      lighterknot

      what did the founders know? they were mostly protestants therefore they believed in jesus christ as god incarnate. they did not accept judaism, catholicism or the church of england. “thats what they knew” that’s why they left europe to get out from under a dominant religion, that doesn’t mean they divorced themselves from their belief in christ.
      all thru our history there have been those trying to separate our country from all religion when in fact the only religion in our government is the laws which are based in christianity.”protestant”
      when we separate ourselves from christianity there’s not much to keep humanity from slipping back into the dark ages. communism has proven that and the other side is islam. you don’t have to question the goal of islam, you either accept it or off goes your head and islam is probably the most backward and ignorant of the top three religions. if you want to call it a religion. the jews have the same belief as the muslims when it comes to the christian, its ok to lop off his head.
      i agree in some sense that these religions are man made and an opium of the populations, however look at the alternative. i don’t see in any of what christ taught that we should kill anyone and he didn’t teach hate. so i’ll just stay out of the cathedral’s, synagogue and the mosque and all the different variants of interpretation and keep them out of any dominance in the government, but, at the same time hope the politicians follow the rule of god. the god our forefathers believed in.

      • Kalli

        Lighterknot, its no use to reply to this Believer He wil never comprehend your taking He will only believe his learned limitations

      • kate8

        chuck b, It is no use to reply to these progressives because they will never comprehend…They can only think as per their indoctrination in limited thinking, as God is not in them.

        • JeffH

          kate8, where do they come from? Mars?

    • libertytrain

      If we do not agree with you or your kind – we are accused of being racist or hateful. Good grief. Grow up.

  • http://northgeorgiainspections.com Ray Lanier

    Lanier
    7-31-10

    I see and read a lot of hogwash in these breif comment. I am very old compared to most of you and have lived a good life. I was in the service at the time of the Keroan War (forgoten war). I have work in other countries and seen how they live. I would not leave this country again unless in handcuffs and draged out. I understand where the President, Congress, and Supreme court wants to go. It is somewhat good but mostly bad. I also understand religon. I am a very good christian. The bible says the only way to heaven is by believing in God and his son Jesus. Nothing else is required and nothing else will get you there. You must learn to live with all people, and love your neighbor as you love yourself. Our goverment does not want this because it will stop the need for as much govement as we now have. By doing this there would be no murderes, killing of people or babies. Also in the christian bible it says lying, faultes witnessing, adultery and homosexual all are a sin. If all people, christians and others, would repent and do good what a world this would be. Nothing you say in oposition to the above will change me. I will not cause any troubles or make wild statements in this world. I will live, love and vote plus try to do my best with the way our country is operated. The President, congress and state goverment will get it right when they go to the Lord and ask for his help. Also maybe some or all of you reader will try this. IT WORKS. GOD ANSWERS PRAYER.

    • Kalli

      Alas! you cant teach an old dog new tricks! Ever wondered why? He is habitualy doing the old learned thing automaticaly HE DOES NOT THINK I KNOW there’s no fool like an old fool and youve been fooled to believe in a lot of tripe that would not keep you young, pray as you like. Maybe I am older than you, but no one could ever teach me tricks as I am not an irrational believing brute, but a realistic thinking (Hu)man It is clear that you realy do not Know the bible at all You merely misqoute, like those who taught you, the teachings of the bible

      • chuck b

        kalli

        and just who are you to judge the limitations of anyone? after reading your posr, you should proof read the nonsense you espouse. if you can make heads or tails of it. or is it something you dreamt up while kneeling on your rug.

      • http://naver samurai

        Neither do you, moron!

  • sally

    Liberal supreme court justices have given power over to epa and they don’t even have power to do that.Liberalism is of the devil why do we allow liberals to be in office.

    • Kristoffer Martin

      Uh, What? The Supreme Court didn’t give any control to the EPA they only affirmed through a Law Case (which is their JOB) as to if they had the control they claimed or not. As for liberals being Evil, thanks for your obtuse opinion but it is irrelevant and moot. What more you may not like it, but the liberals in power were voted into place, which means your question of “why do we allow liberals to be in office” really is asking “why do we allow people, who don’t agree with our (my) point of view, to vote?” Brilliant prejudice there Sally.

  • http://www.chartimages.info Bud Wood

    The main body of the constitution delineates in general how the federal governement is organized and what it can do. The constitution further delineates what the states can’t do. The bill of rights generally delineates what the federal government can not do. The other amendments address other things which, at the time, were deemed important (such as probitionb).

    Because the consitition (including the bill of rights) is somewhat short, it can be easily read by modestly literate english speaking persons. It would be a good idea to believe very few comments from those who have not taken the time to read it. There are just too many assumptions about what some yo-yos think is in the constitution.

  • http://gmail i41

    Denneniso, Jefferson just took on his wifes half sister. This woman came with her half sister, who was just a little bit younger. Jefferson’s wife was a good looking female and no doubt Sally got some good genetic material, and was only a little darker. So he just loved his sister-in-law like his wife, and probably loved both both as slaves. Don’t knowe why you are up set, you liberal womens rights groups don’t seem to have a problem with the pedophile muslims. Check out the latest Time magazine to see how understand muslims are.Clean out the muslim bastards and let ST. Peter figure out wreck. When you simple minded asses whine about wars, you just head on over to those crap sand pits and see how long you last.Either most of you idoits are marxist liberal democrats who keep embracing islam ideology, and Dislike Chiristanity so much you have no moral compass. Tell us Christans why America was founded a Christaian nation.

    • Normal Guy

      Have another drink. If you’re not hammered just jump off a bridge because you are a hopeless loser.

      • kate8

        Normal, Somehow I really doubt, as nasty as your attitude is toward others, that you are a person of glowing success in life.

        I certainly wouldn’t do any business with you.

        • kate8

          Geez, what am I saying. You obviously get paid to post nasty comments on blog sites.

          It must pay pretty well. You spend an awful lot of time here.

        • Karolyn

          You think Normal’s nasty? And you have nothing to say about 141? Wow!

    • Denniso

      Sadly, that’s what most of the rightwinger’s do…attack others for being uncivil,while they openly tolerate their bretheren’s slimy comments…I think i41′s should be taken off by Bob Livingston,who’s guide suggests civility.

      • libertytrain

        Denniso – after your attack on me for telling the truth about what happened to me on the Internet, I can’t see you as any shining example of moral compass.

        • Denniso

          I apologised below…

  • Kristoffer Martin

    On my Birthday no less, I cannot believe that I’ve had to read such stupidity as that which has come out of the fingers of i41.

    i41 you are the idiot here. Not only have you used several false arguments, but you have outrightly shown a degree of degenerate backward racism that is over 50 years old and extremely biased. I don’t care if that is your opinion or not, libel on that level is such a disgusting thing I can’t believe you had the audacity to post it. Did you even stop to think about what you’re saying?

    And people complain about us liberals….gag!

  • Annie Ladysmith

    Saul of Tarsus is under suspicion of being a crackpot. I would be careful about basing your faith on him, as 100% of churchianity does, and not Jesus-God. Why did we ever need Saul when we have the Savior’s words to go to? Think about it! We are called SHEEP for a reason.

    • Anna

      Good point Annie, and Jesus not Saul/Paul is the “good shepherd” and “the only teacher”

    • Kristoffer Martin

      Oi, first off we’re called Human, not Sheep. Sheep are a woolly usually horned ruminant mammal related to the goat. Secondly; I am not a follower, I’m a leader. I refuse to be herded into a the same lump as people who follow an imaginary figure head of a religion that has otherwise shown its self to be nothing more than a cult.

  • DaveH

    For those who think Big Government protects us from those Big Bad Corporations:
    http://www.healthfreedomusa.org/?p=6126

    • Kristoffer Martin

      First off I’m familiar with Healthfreedomusae.org, they’re not reputable and are again another website that doesn’t site sources for their information. However, that is not to say I don’t agree on somethings. While I do agree the FDA as it is currently has caused some issues and are in the back pocket of some very large drug corporations, doesn’t mean it should be dismantled completely or at all. Only reformatted and laws put into place to prevent such things from happening (the approval of dangerous drugs for under the table payments to high up officials). Without the FDA we lose, because regulations on food as well as drugs will go to the way side. Further, while some drugs are passed that are dangerous, many drugs are passed that are useful and many more are denied. Each year something like 500 drugs are presented to the FDA for approval of which on average only 10 are approved. (that comes from the FDA’s own website)

      However there are some false claims on this site.

      3: irradiation doesn’t contaminate anything. This is following a false argument of over generalization of radiation (stemming from the nuclear power company era of melt downs). The low level radiation is a form of microwave blasted at the food after harvest for a few seconds. Long enough to kill bacteria, parasites, and viruses, but not long enough to do any substantial damage to the already picked produce and other foods. What more the machines used are just as safe as your microwave at home, if not safer since your microwave at home puts out three to five times the amount of radiation.

      4:Approval of Genetically Modified Produce not only is so tightly regulated its not funny. In 2006 a small batch of GM corn was being tested in a safe lab (a completely cut off bunker so the pollen couldn’t infect other corn plants) when some of the pollen escaped. The FDA ordered all corn with in 3 miles of the bunker to be burned.

      GM foods that have entered the market are minor in changes, often the combined splicing of two relative plants to create a hardier plant.
      An example of GM is the production of the Grapple (an apple that has the flavor of a grape). They graft grape vine onto an apple tree and the tree produce is a combined form of an apple and grape. Perfectly safe to eat (I’ve had them they taste great) and they went through five years of studies before being put on the market. Scientifically studied and sound. I could go into a long winded explanation of genetic integration here but it’d be pointless.

      5: No evidence exists for this claim that harmful additives are constantly put into cosmetics without inspection. If this were the case than the 149 million women and 94 million men in the US who use cosmetics everyday would be complaining. Rather than the odd and out complaint because of an allergic reaction to some basic chemical found in a product or two.

      6: Completely wrong and an unfounded statement(and using sarcasm in place of proper names “Farma Development Agency” rather than Food and Drug Administration is unbecoming).

      7. No evidence again for this one, and it is extremely obtuse. The claim that the FDA is infringing on freedom of speech is completely unfounded.

      8.Okay, yes using viruses to kill other viruses sounds bad, however it only sounds bad until you know what really is happening. It’s not viruses that are being sprayed to kill other viruses, it’s Bacteria (specifically the kind found to be harmless in our own bodies) to kill other bacteria (like E-coli, which lives in our intestines but is bad in the stomach). Talk about an complete botch up on presenting the facts.

      9: The listed statement on the site about Vaccines shows the incompetence of the writer. Vaccines carry no toxins, but essentially a saline solution with the dead shell of a virus. Vaccines have been used now for over 200 years successfully. Only a hand full of people experience a form of allergy to the saline solution found in most vaccinations (less than .1% of the whole population.

      10: Food Supply: first off the FDA has no regard to this~interestingly enough beyond basic regulations on illegal substances and contraband (ie illegally caught fish and other animals etc) the FDA has a minimum standard for all food and otherwise lets markets (got to love the free market system) meet or exceed the minimum. What more nearly 80% of US food is imported.

      • http://?? Joe H.

        Kristoffer,
        Hate to break it to you, but as of last year,2009, only 15% of foods consumed by Americans were imported!!!

        • Kristoffer Martin

          And where did you get that information Joe H? According to the FDA 90% of all food is imported, either from state to state (because some 60% of our food is grown in California, Florida, and almost all grains are grown in the Plain States), while the remainder is imported from out of country (including Canada, Mexico, China, and several south American countries. Brazil is one of the top exporters of food to the US.)

          • JeffH

            Hate to burst your bubble, but food grown amd manufactured in the US and sold and consumed in the US is NOT imported.

            The term “import” is derived from the conceptual meaning as to bring in the goods and services into the port of a country.

  • NormP

    Wow some of you all need to chill a bit !!! There is one important difference between original Christianity and religion. I’ll state it as a question, “Did GOD do the ‘work’ or is man doing the ‘work’?” There-in lies the difference. A man answer will be the religion answer and like it, believe it or not is the wrong answer. Nothing personal but it happens to be HIS rules not ours. BY the by, please get that teacher to post some of the real history of our land.

    • kate8

      NormP, Not to worry. All in God’s own time.

      At some point, every knee shall bow…

      • CurtisS

        So is that what your religion is all about… domination? Is it all about control and making people get down on their knees in submission? I’m sorry, I’m getting confused, are you talking about Christianity or Islam?

        • kate8

          CurtisS, It is obvious that you know nothing about the subject.

          Scripture teaches that after man has nearly self-destructed because of his tendencies to commit acts of evil on his brothers and on the Earth, and has endured the horrors of his own creation, man will finally see the error of such tendencies. Those who don’t will perish because of their own defiance.

          “Every knee shall bow” is acknowledgement that God is supreme, and that when man walks in His Ways and honors His Laws, which are the Laws of the Universe (Love, Justice, Mercy, Liberty, Life, etc. etc.), we will live in peace and harmony with all of Creation.

          It is NOT submission. It is true freedom and liberty, where we live in love and respect, and do NOT wish to dominate one another but, instead, worship the attributes of Divine Goodness, to which all will give honor and praise.

          • JeffH

            kate8, CurtisS is one of the “north of the US border” liberals…what could you expect?

  • http://gmail i41

    normie, point out where I am wrong on the statements and what statements. You sound like Jeriamah Wright, a muslim loving moron. Have your governemnt approvee nanny change your nappy, and burb your packed commidity gu you probable will go th sleep with the governemnt sows teat in you mug. You and Kistopher must both be out of the same litter of governemnt farrowed hogs. You seem to embrace socialism and governemnt control of everything, you don’t take responsiblity for your selves or be self suffient to live with out some governemnt agency wonk leasding the way, all traits of a marxist communist democrat liberal. As stupid as you both are and your ilk are, it is good some conservative kicks your rears every so often, for a involintary spasm, for you brain to receive oxegen every once in a while. Let hear your B–l S–t facts from you welfare rats nano skulls.

  • http://gmail i41

    Islam is not a relegion, it is an ideaology. with a pedophile leaders that beleived in subtragation all people. Read the latest Time magaziner and see how damn loving the muslim ideology is to another human and especially women!. Christanity’s God is a loving God, Allah is a clay figurine moon god, why is it most all muslim countries flags have a cresent moon and a star? Mohamid was a murdering brutal bastard, who with his dying words, told his followers to fight and fight, and kill to convert the world, what a bastard to women, children and non muslims. Lets hear you marxist loving fruit cakes defend these s–t bird muslim idoits. USA was started as a Christan nation!!

  • chuck b

    141

    you have it right!!

  • dan of arizona

    I for one just have to say that this has been the longest posts that i have ever read. good night all

  • Bob Wire

    good nite Dan ~ yea my eyes are crossing and I’m making typos.

    Good thread one and all.

  • Bob Westmoreland

    Wrong this country wont change until voting rules are changed. As long as people who have nothing at stake can vote themslves whatever they want from the productive members of the nation then we are eventually doomed to become a socialistic country. We need to require property ownership as a requirement to vote.

  • Vicki

    With respect to the “big lie” that Chip mentions, I will occasionally point out to “liberals” that the First amendment says specifically that “CONGRESS shall make no LAW ….” and that religion is mentioned as freedom OF religion not freedom FROM religion.

    Besides Atheism is a religion so they will just have to get over the fact that some of us do not believe that nothing created everything.

    • Denniso

      Sorry Vicki, but Atheism is not a religion. It is not a belief and has no dogma. All it is, is a lack of belief in a god that created anything. There is actually more evidence for the non existence of god,than there is for him/her/it to exist.

      • Vicki

        Religion
        4 : a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith.

        I rest my case

        • Denniso

          Sorry,you have no case to rest…you’ll have to explain what the so called ‘beliefs’ of atheists are. And, not believing in something(god), is NOT a belief. If it were,then not believing in Santa Clause could be called a religion. Try listing some ‘beliefs’ of atheists, I’ll wait…

          • vicki

            I hope I didn’t keep you waiting long :)

            http://www.apocatastasis.net/God/ATHEISM.html

          • Denniso

            You post a link to a ‘former atheist’s site to prove that atheists have beliefs? What is on there are principles and philosophies for living, not beliefs in something abstract. And, if you put 10 atheists in a room you could get 10 different approaches to life…there is no uniform or consistent ‘belief’ among atheists,except the absence of a belief in god or gods. Your list falls way short of anything like a list of beliefs,because there are none.

            Why do Christians want to wrongly assert that atheism is a religion? Are the ashamed that their belief system is an actual religion? Do they think that their beliefs being founded on religion,they are somehow less credible?

          • Vicki

            I can’t help you further Denniso.

            I gave you the dictionary definition of religion.
            I gave you the words of someone who had claimed to once be an athiest
            I could have given you many more links but this site requires a moderator to inspect for spam or something.

            So you go to Google and you type in “beliefs of atheism” or similar search phrase.

            That you deny something is does not make it not

          • Denniso

            Once again,the lack of logic illustrated by true believers and rightwingers. So, if I don’t believe in Astrology or paranormal or space aliens, then by your logic I’m part of a religion? Come on now…the religion of non believers? maybe I can get a property tax deduction.

  • http://thehem@rcn.com old dog

    I grew up in the 50*s, and God was everywhere. A ONE MINUTE PRAYER BEFORE SCHOOL STARTED, THE 10 COMMANDMENTS POSTED EVERYWHERE, PARENTS TAKING THEIR CHILDREN TO CHURCH EVERY SUNDAY. WHAT WERE THE RESULTS? ONLY THAT OUR GENERATION RESPECT ELDERS, PRAY TO GOD, KNOW WHERE WE CAME FROM, AND WHERE WE ARE GOING, DON*T COMMIT CRIMES, WORK HARD AND PAY TAXES, ARE KIND TO OTHERS, ETC. RESULTS? A PERFECT 10!! Since most of that has been taken away, what has happened to America? The proof is rock solid!! WHY TRY TO FIX SOMETHING THAT WAS NOT BROKEN/????//?? WAKE UP PEOPLE, BEFORE IT*S TOO LATE!!

    • Karolyn

      Ah, yes, the good old days. A perfect 10? I don’t know about that. Most of the reason things are not as they were is the increased population. There was probably proportionately just as much crime then, but we also didn’t know about it. Not all of “us” grew up to be so great either. The children of the children of the 50s, 60s, 70s, are the ones with no respect. I had no children, so you can’t blame me!

      • libertytrain

        Don’t know about the children of the folks you hang out with – but I have three incredibly hard-working, very successful, respectful children. And I’m just a simple worker raised in the 50s and 60s — never lived off the government.

  • Retired Military

    Denniso meet Normal Guy, Normal Guy meet Moron, Moron meet Denniso. Congratulations on the Re-Uniting of you three Triplets.

    • Denniso

      Retired…I try not to engage dimwits w/ nothing to say.

    • http://naver samurai

      Don’t woory about duhniso! He’s just po’d that you discribed him pretty well!

  • atlas reborn

    Mr berger I think you do not understand rights. the right to marriage is not for homosexuals because there are civil unions which is the same as marriage except for name. marriage was instituted by religion for religious people not for non religious people. civil unions were instituted for non religious people and to have the same results and does. the homosexuals want to throw mud in the faces of religious people. so now you know the real reason. they are anti God. anti constitution. they are narsacists and will have nothing but what they want so help them. I they want to have sex in public they will and call it discrimination if they can not have their way. they want the world their way or none at at all.

    • Karolyn

      Give me a break! Whoever said gays were anti-God? You are sadly mistaken, Mr. One of my best friends is a gay Christian Conservative and would never have sex in public. Yes, they do exist you know. Gee, maybe you need to have your own little group. Many of the people speaking here would be quite comfortable in your group. But what would we call you? That would take some thought.

      • http://naver samurai

        Gays are anti-God. They can believe what they want, but say you believe in certain things and call yourself a christian. It’s inconcieveable to say your a christian and live in rebellion to the Bible. Homosexuality is an abomination in the eyes of God and his punishable with fire and brimstone. Tell you friend to divorce his man and go back to church.

        • Denniso

          Sorry Sam,but the bible does not make a Christian…it’s a book of words. A real Christian lives the life suggested by Jesus…you know he never married and he hung out almost exclusively w/ other men. Could it be?

  • Robert Berger

    Atlas,I’m afraid you’ve been hoodwinked by all the lies and myths about homosexuals which have been perpetuated by conservatives.
    I’m heterosexual, but I know that the vast majority of gays are just ordinary people who mind their own business and bother orthreaten no one.No gay person has ever hurt me or tried to force me to be a homosexual.
    There are some bad eggs among the gays just as there are bad eggs among all groups of people. But they are not a threat to America or any other country.Far more children are molested by heterosexuals than homosexuals, and those few gays who do molest children don’t do it because they’re gay.
    Homosexuals have been around from the very beginning of mankind and will exist as long as human beings exist.They are and have been in every profession and have been in the military from the beginning.
    People who are terrified of having homosexuals teach in public school are unaware that they have been teachers,and often outstanding ones,from the very beginning of public schools.
    You may have had gay teachers when you when to public schools.But they never did anything improper,because they knew it would ruin their careers. You just didn’t know they were gay.
    Many of the greatest artists,musicians,writers, statesmen, and other famous people have been gay. So what?
    I say, as long as they harm no one,leave homosexuals alone.
    What consenting adults do in private is absolutely no business of any government,and certainly not ours.
    Your comments about homosexuals and homosexuality show how pathetically ignorant you are about this subject,just like so many other Americans who ought to know better.

    • Denniso

      Gay bashing goes back at least to Hitler,who villified Gays and persucuted them along w/ Poles,Gypsies,Jews and the handicapped.
      It’s sad to see some people still do it today….

      • libertytrain

        Denniso – I tried looking up the history and found some, unfortunately they all came with links to a “Boy Love” site. Difficult to do serious research on that subject.

        • Karolyn

          Open your closed little mind!

          • libertytrain

            Karolyn, excuse me – I tried doing research on the subject Denniso suggested and that’s the crud I was given. I have an open mind on people’s preferences but not open when children are involved.

        • Denniso

          Liberty…and to think that I defended you when Coal Miner trashed you. You ought to grow up.

          • libertytrain

            Denniso – grow-up? I was telling you what actually happened to me – I had to remove the “history” from my browser to get rid of cookies from a few places I linked onto because of the “boy love” sites attached to them. One in particular I looked at was going to talk about Balboa killing Indians because of their homosexual behavior. I don’t remember the other ones – I got off and cleaned house quickly. If you feel like following the Balboa story you probably will find exactly what I’m talking about and you will also find that Balboa did kill homosexual Indians.

          • Denniso

            OK, my mistake…given the way most of these comments go I assumed you were being sarcastic and demeaning. I apologise for jumping to the wrong conclusion.

        • libertytrain

          I may be tongue-in-cheek sometimes but I can’t imagine intentionally going for the demeaning. I think that would be terribly rude.

  • Jackie

    The left has twisted the intent of that phrase to the extreme. Considering that same congress had 10,000 Bibles printed with the inscription “For the use of our schools”. They distributed Bibles to schools. I think they were okay with prayer.

  • Doug Indeap

    The phrase “separation of church and state” is but a metaphor to describe the underlying principle of the First Amendment and the no-religious-test clause of the Constitution. That the phrase does not appear in the text of the Constitution assumes much importance, it seems, only to those who may have once labored under the misimpression it was there and later learned they were mistaken. To those familiar with the Constitution, the absence of the metaphor commonly used to describe one of its principles is no more consequential than the absence of other phrases (e.g., Bill of Rights, separation of powers, checks and balances, fair trial, religious liberty) used to describe other undoubted Constitutional principles.

    Some try to pass off the Supreme Court’s decision in Everson v. Board of Education as simply a misreading of Jefferson’s letter to the Danbury Baptists–as if that is the only basis of the Court’s decision. Instructive as that letter is, it played but a small part in the Court’s decision. Perhaps even more than Jefferson, James Madison influenced the Court’s view. Madison, who had a central role in drafting the Constitution and the First Amendment, confirmed that he understood them to “[s]trongly guard[] . . . the separation between Religion and Government.” Madison, Detached Memoranda (~1820). He made plain, too, that they guarded against more than just laws creating state sponsored churches or imposing a state religion. Mindful that even as new principles are proclaimed, old habits die hard and citizens and politicians could tend to entangle government and religion (e.g., “the appointment of chaplains to the two houses of Congress” and “for the army and navy” and “[r]eligious proclamations by the Executive recommending thanksgivings and fasts”), he considered the question whether these actions were “consistent with the Constitution, and with the pure principle of religious freedom” and responded: “In strictness the answer on both points must be in the negative. The Constitution of the United States forbids everything like an establishment of a national religion.”

    The First Amendment embodies the simple, just idea that each of us should be free to exercise his or her religious views without expecting that the government will endorse or promote those views and without fearing that the government will endorse or promote the religious views of others. By keeping government and religion separate, the establishment clause serves to protect the freedom of all to exercise their religion. Reasonable people may differ, of course, on how these principles should be applied in particular situations, but the principles are hardly to be doubted. Moreover, they are good, sound principles that should be nurtured and defended, not attacked. Efforts to undercut our secular government by somehow merging or infusing it with religion should be resisted by every patriot.

    Wake Forest University recently published a short, objective Q&A primer on the current law of separation of church and state–as applied by the courts rather than as caricatured in the blogosphere. I commend it to you. http://tiny.cc/6nnnx

  • Kristoffer Martin

    I’m too disgusted by this conversation. Between i41′s super-racism to the “holier than thou” christian BS all chances of having a reasonable logical discussion has gone to the wayside. I’m glad that people with your sentimentality aren’t in control, because such attitude is what has lead to so many atrocities in our past.

    • Karolyn

      Ditto. I just view these posts to get a good laugh! Unbelievable!

  • SChase

    [comment removed due to excessive length]

  • SChase

    I have spent some time going over the posts related to Chip Wood’s July 30, 2010 article. They seem to have moved far a field from what he was saying. To get back to his argument I have attached a monograph I prepared in June of 2004 during the fights over the ‘Ten Commandments Monument’ in Alabama and the ‘Under God’ phrase in the Pledge of Allegiance. There is no statement of my personal religious beliefs. You may presume what you wish. I will say that I am a ‘strict constructionist’ when it comes to the Constitution. I do not believe that ‘interpretation’ of the Constitution should be a matter of ‘liberal’ versus ‘conservative’. Interpretation should be the province of english professors. The courts job is only to see if a specific law or part of a law violates the english professors interpretation. Read and form your own opinion. I have mine and it will only be changed if it can be shown that some definition is wrong. I have included the complete text of the First Amendment to the constitution. For those who have forgotten what they were taught in high school civics I would also suggest that they go and read the Constitution, especially the parts relating to the separation of powers (Article 1, Section 1) and relating to the powers granted to the Federal Government and reserved to the States (Tenth Amendment).

    SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE

    This monograph was inspired by the fervor over the ‘Ten Commandments Monument’ in Alabama and the ‘Under God’ phrase in the Pledge of Allegiance. That led me to research the meaning of the words of the ‘Establishment Clause’ of the First Amendment to the Constitution and resulted in the following:

    “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof.”
    I have a hard time understanding the Constitutional arguments about the presence of supposedly ‘religious’ objects or symbols in organizations or facilities supported by governments.
    I have read a lot of dissertations on various court decisions and have found that they all share a common fault. They do not look at what the words mean.
    I think that the justices of the courts and the attorneys need to go back to basics and remember what they were taught in their high school english classes.
    I.E., when you do not understand, or are not sure about, the meaning of a word, go to the dictionary.
    I have done this with the first 10 words of the First Amendment to the Constitution of the United States (the Establishment Clause).
    I think that what the Founding Fathers were saying is very clear. I give my interpretation below. The phrases in parenthesis following each word are from the definitions as found in the Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary (http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary). I have included the complete dictionary listings at the end of this monograph for your consideration:

    Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion

    Congress (the supreme legislative body of a nation and especially of a republic)
    shall (used to express a command or exhortation b — used in laws, regulations, or directives to express what is mandatory)
    make (to cause to exist, occur, or appear)
    no (what part of no don’t you understand)
    law (a binding custom or practice of a community : a rule of conduct or action prescribed or formally recognized as binding or enforced by a controlling authority (2) : the whole body of such customs, practices, or rules)
    respecting (with respect to : concerning)
    an (one)
    establishment (a settled arrangement; especially : a code of laws)
    of (relating to)
    religion (a personal set or institutionalized system of religious attitudes, beliefs, and practices)
    This leads to the following ‘modern’ statement of the First Amendment:
    The Congress of the United States of America shall cause to exist, occur, or appear, no binding custom or practice of a community or a rule of conduct or action prescribed or formally recognized as binding or enforced by a controlling authority with respect to or concerning one settled arrangement, especially a code of laws, relating to a personal set or institutionalized system of religious attitudes, beliefs, and practices.
    I believe that it is clear that the writers of the Constitution intended to forbid the Federal government from establishing a national church, similar to the Church of England, for instance, and to forbid them from passing any laws relating to the establishment of religion, or relating to the practice of any religion, either for or against any religion. It probably should be called the ‘hands off religion’ clause.
    Since Congress cannot pass any law relating to religion, then the Federal Courts cannot rule on any behavior relating to religion unless it violates some other superior clause of the Constitution. Their jurisdiction is limited to Federal laws.
    This line of reasoning would allow the individual states, or even counties or cities, to adopt a ‘state’ religion, i.e., the Church of _______ (insert any state or county or city name you desire). And the federal court would have no jurisdiction.
    It makes mote the question of whether or not it is constitutional for the Federal government to provide financial aid to schools ran by religious organizations. They cannot mention religion in their laws.
    I cannot say that I would necessarily be happy with all of the things that this interpretation could lead to, but it would be Constitutional.
    It might make the Pledge of Allegiance as currently written unconstitutional because it was adopted by federal law. But it would be constitutional for those who desired to use it to do so, no matter where or when, and would allow other non-federal jurisdictions to adopt it as the official pledge in their jurisdiction.
    It could possibly make ‘In God We Trust’ unconstitutional on any thing that is approved by law. (binding practice and custom might come into play.)
    Finally, it would make the Ten Commandments Monument constitutional because it was not placed there by an act of Congress. No law was passed to cause it to be placed there.

  • http://www.realcolorwheel.com/ DonJ

    I think this is the end of this thread, wow what a read.
    Let me add these comments.

    Denniso says:
    August 3, 2010 at 2:37 am
    Sam…this IS NOT a Christian nation.

    (Denniso, when you believe in God you’re a Christian. If you don’t you’re not. The ‘nots’ don’t make up enough to count, like the gay’s and un-Godly religions they tend to be selfish and dangerous to the majority.

    Are you dangerous Denniso? You sound dangerous. “There is actually more evidence for the non existence of god, than there is for him/her/it to exist.”

    To me that’s a proven lie. Anyone that would say that is badly mistaken and dangerous. I like the 10 Commandments, rules to keep us moral. I like “Old Dog” but not you so much. )

    Vickie says, atheism is a religion. (Not.. how can no religion be a religion? )

    i41 says: (And I like it)
    Islam is not a relegion, it is an ideaology. With pedophile leaders that beleived in subtragation all people. Read the latest Time magaziner and see how damn loving the muslim ideology is to another human and especially women!. Christanity’s God is a loving God, Allah is a clay figurine moon god, why is it most all muslim countries flags have a cresent moon and a star? Mohamid was a murdering brutal bastard, who with his dying words, told his followers to fight and fight, and kill to convert the world, what a bastard to women, children and non muslims. Lets hear you marxist loving fruit cakes defend these s–t bird muslim idoits. USA was started as a Christan nation!! (and it still is)

    Kristoffer Martin says: (I think this is really bad and he lies by omission)
    First off I’m familiar with Healthfreedomusae.org, they’re not reputable and are again another website that doesn’t site sources for their information.
    GM foods that have entered the market are minor in changes, often the combined splicing of two relative plants to create a hardier plant.
    (Have you ever heard of Monsanto’s Terminator gene Kristoffer? It won’t grow a second generation. What will they do if that one escapes? Oh, they would like to release it, I see.)

    Kristoffer Martin says: Vaccines carry no toxins, but essentially a saline solution with the dead shell of a virus.
    (The same week I was shot with a phenomena vaccine my feet swelled to an unrecognizable size. I think it was because of the mercury in the shot.
    12-8-9, My feet still swell at night 17 months later! It was what was in the phenomena shot, would you remove the mercury from my body?
    “My dissatisfaction eventually made it to the Chief of Internal Medicine who challenged me to produce peer-reviewed journal articles in support of my objection. There were dozens of case reports of kidney disease or small blood vessel inflammation following influenza vaccination. In fact, one paper cited 16 patients in its written report[ see foot note in original article - REL]. Under-reporting of adverse vaccine reactions is a known phenomenon. The National Vaccine Information Center estimates that only about two percent of adverse vaccine reactions ever get reported. It would follow that written and published case reports found in medical journals represent a minuscule sampling of the totality of vaccine injury cases. These implications should evoke at least some curiosity on the part of doctors and health care advocates…”
    7-1-10, my feet still swelling each day.
    Kristoffer Martin talks about a site and says they’re not reputable and are yet but another website that doesn’t site sources for their information. And than gives his totally false undocumented information.
    Basically I’d say to completely disregard any this guy has to say.)

    American Citizen says:
    July 31, 2010 at 1:40 pm
    Economically, thanks to Obama and his deficit borrowing, we already have been taken over.
    (That is one of the best posts on this thread. )
    Since this seems to be the end of this thread, let me say this:
    Audit the Fed, decriminalize hemp, reject illegals and annul and nullify Obama, stop mountain top coal mining, protect our gun rights, States must start arresting Federal employees for breaking State and Commonwealth laws, The real goal of “health care” legislation, the real goal of “cap-and-trade,” and the real goal of the “stimulus” is to rip the guts out of our private economy and transfer wide swaths of it over to the government to control. )

    • Denniso

      DonJ…sorry you ‘don’t like me too much’. Too bad,but I’ll try to survive. You, like so many Christians and maybe all religious people don’t understand logic. Most people in the world believe in god,their god,yet, most people in the world are not Christian. Follow that? Other religions which make up more of the world than Christianity all believe in their god,every bit as much as do Christians. Whether you think that the other religions really don’t have a god,or the one god, they don’t agree w/ you and they say they believe in god,just as you do.
      You sanctimonious Christians think that you are the only people w/ the one,true god,when the truth is that you have no more valid claim on god than any other religion does. And millions think that you’re all wrong.

      • Denniso

        And to be more clear, I don’t mean to say that ALL Christians are sanctimonious, just most…as are many or most people in other religions. Most think they have the truth and the one true god. The Muslim terrorists think that too as well as others willing to slaughter innocents in cold blood…Tim McVeigh for one of our own.

        • Denniso

          Don J asks if I’m dangerous…then he says i sound dangerous. I wonder
          how he means it,but can imagine he thinks I’m ‘dangerous’ because of my political views that will bring down the country all by myself.

          I wonder if Don J thinks there’s any danger in many of the rightwingers on this site inciting people to violence and revolution?
          No, he thinks that is simply part of our ‘political system’ and encouraging imbalanced wackos to kill Obama and other ‘liberals’ is just part of reasoned debate.

  • jopa

    OK whats it gonna be.You say the Constitution is such a wonderful document that nobody should change it, but in the next breath you say change the fourteenth amendment.I believe it also guarantees freedom of religion but only if it is your religion not Muslims.Too many contradictions.I did’nt want you to comment on my lack of literacy so I tried to check my spelling to the best of my knowledge.There are so many people in the world that do,nt write articles for a living it is hard for us to keep up with perfect grammar, punctuation, and spelling.But I bet I could teach you a thing or two about underground mining.

  • http://lvhenr@cox.net Old Lady in Christ

    Christian is: One who loves. Love is long suffering,is kind,does not envey,does not parade itself,is not puffed up does not behave rudely,does not seek it’s own,is not provoked, thinks no evil, does not rejoice in iniquity, rejoices in the truth, bears all things,hopes for all things in Christ, endures all things and never fails. 1Cor. 8:2 And if any one thinks that he knows anything, he knows nothing yet as he ought to know.But if anyone loves God this one is known by God.

  • Suzuekie

    Hi Chip
    Just for the record … it’s Saul of TARSUS, (not of Taurus) who later became Paul the Apostle – while he was Saul he showed love to “nobody”. And if I’m not mistaken, those were the words of our Lord.

  • misscb

    I believe if you are here legaly, GREAT WELCOME. But if you came here illegaly then go back and become legal. A comment: I live in NM. On Fathers day a celabration was held at the public zoo in Albuquerque. A son invited his father to the event. When they got there it was 80% Mexican. Even all the bands & entertainment was Mexican. nothing American. Soon people from the bands stood up and started shouting “This land was taken from us and we are taking it back. We are taking it back and we are not going to become American” It was so shocking that they left. These 2 friends are European (Spainards)they were saddened that it had no varity. Yes, back in the 1880′s Mexico took over rule for a mere 25yrs.then after the American army went to war and took it back. In this state Governor Richardson has given them FREE college Education, Housing, Medical Even Drivers Licences so they can work. Last year we were told that we the real Americans would need a passport.Now you know why. I feel they need the passports not us Americans. when you come here Every thiong is changing and looking like Mexico. Street Vendors are everywhere, They have many of the jobs, and they speak to you in Mexican and if you don’t speak back they look at you in discontent and ask you,”DONT YOU SPEAK SPAINISH’ Like your in the wrong. And everyone Please don’t confuse Mexican with Spainards, Spainards see themselves as Europeans…….thanks for listening

    • Denniso

      You’re exaggerating everything about the Mexican presence in Albuquerque. And you’re wrong about the history of the SW.

  • TR

    Hmmmmm… Enjoy every bit of this. Great article Mr. Wood. America, this is what we’re about; all these freedoms to opine as we will and click the ‘X’ when we wish… Ain’t it great?!

  • anon

    There is a more subtle, conservative reason to have a very small amount of judicial review.

    The Constitution states that it is the supreme law of the land, and it follows that no other law can at least directly contradict it.

    Say a liberal Congress passed a law banning conservatives from publishing books and petitioning the government for redress of their grievances.

    The Court in that case could decide the matter as the law violating the supreme law.

  • JUDY

    This country was set up on the principle of freedom of religion and freedom from religion. However, it was not set up to strangle free expression, only to keep one person from demanding that another worship as he does. It is sad that in the process of keeping us free, the pendulum has swung so far that we cannot express ourselves.

    History will reveal that when religion and government are arm in arm, there is persecution for minority religions. See history on the Dark Ages, the Protestant Reformation and, also observe how differing religions are treated in Muslim countries.
    Benjamin Franklin wrote: “When a religion is good, I conceive that it will support itself; and when it cannot support itself and God does not take care to support, so that its Professors are oblig’d to call for the help of the Civil Power, it is a sign, I apprehend, of its being a bad one.”
    Religious freedom is being eroded in this country. John 16:2 says “They will put you out of the synagogues; yes, the time is coming that whoever kills you will think that he offers God service.”
    This is what lies ahead and reveals that it is almost time for Jesus to return.

  • http://herringtons.home.mindspring.com lighterknot

    What’s the pay to sit here all day and throw insults – To whom do I apply for the job.

  • libertytrain

    you’ll have to take that issue up with some of the leftist lib sites.

  • Denniso

    Do you really think there is worse name calling and smearing of political leaders on left wing sites? I don’t think you’ve looked at many if you believe that…is the NY Times a leftist site? It looks pretty civil to me,as does Huffington.

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