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Congress Sticks It To Us Again

January 4, 2013 by  

Congress Sticks It To Us Again
PHOTOS.COM
The Federal government will collect more payroll taxes this year.

Happy New Year, everyone! Weren’t you inspired to see how our elected representatives worked late into the night, even on New Year’s Eve, to keep this country from plunging over the fiscal cliff?

And what a great deal they got for us! Taxes are guaranteed to go up for the vast majority of Americans. Spending cuts will be postponed. Government is going to get bigger. So will the deficit. Barack Obama can gloat that he forced Republicans to accept higher taxes. In fact, an anonymous “official close to the talks” told FOX News’ Ed Henry that getting the GOP to break their tax pledge is “one of the most consequential policy achievements of the last couple of decades.”

My, doesn’t that make you feel better?

Conservatives in the House made a last-ditch effort to include some mandatory spending cuts in the legislation. But that effort failed when Democratic leaders in the Senate said they would refuse to consider any changes in the legislation they had approved the night before. When the final tally was taken, the measure passed the House 257-167, with about a third of the Republicans voting in favor of it.

The margin of approval was even bigger in the Senate, where it passed by a vote of 89-8. Among the tiny minority that voted nay were such Tea Party favorites as Marco Rubio (R-Fla.), Rand Paul (R-Ky.) and Mike Lee (R-Utah).

And even though everyone is sick of all the politicking and posturing, we’re going to go through all of it again over the next couple of months. That’s when we run smack into the debt ceiling, have to deal with mandatory budget cuts and are supposed to come up with some sort of budget for the next fiscal year.

Treasury Secretary Timothy Geithner added fuel to the fire when he said last week that the United States would reach its debt limit on Dec. 31 and, thus, presumably run out of money. But then he piously proclaimed that he could use some “extraordinary measures” to find the funds to keep government going for another couple of months. So the rhetoric to raise the debt ceiling from $16.394 trillion, where it is now, will get a lot hotter between now and March 1.

There is no rest for the wicked — or for the big spenders in Washington.

In a classic example of premature congratulations, the stock market celebrated the new accord. The Washington Post reported: “The Dow soared 308 points, or 2.4%, on Wednesday, the biggest point to start a year in history, after posting the biggest ever year-end point gain of 166 points on Monday.”

But don’t expect the euphoria to last for long, as the realities of what this new agreement does and doesn’t do begin to strike home.

Just how bad is this Frankenstein’s monster? The bill is packed with pork for many of the Administration’s pet projects, including subsidies for plug-in electric vehicles, special deductions for film and television productions, a $12.1 billion tax credit for wind energy and even first-time home buyers in the District of Columbia. Numerous subsidies, tax credits and other goodies are buried in the legislation. You can be sure that the more we learn about what’s in the bill, the less we will like it.

Although Barack Obama campaigned on promises to raise taxes for anyone making more than $200,000 a year and couples earning $250,000, the final legislation raised the base a bit higher. The new limit is families and small-business owners earning $450,000 a year. They will see their personal income tax rate go from 35 percent to 41 percent.

But that’s a fraction of the hit that income from investments will take. Thrifty seniors who lived within their means all of their lives will see the taxes on their investments go up dramatically, while the incentive for anyone to invest in productive businesses will go down. That’s because taxes on dividends and capital gains will go from 15 percent to 23.8 percent. (The final number includes an Obamacare investment income surtax of 3.8 percent.)

In addition to those higher tax rates, couples earning $300,000 or more a year will see their deductions and exemptions phased out. The more they earn, they less they will be able to deduct.

One of the few pieces of good news in the measure is that the estate tax won’t be quite as bad as was feared. If we had gone over the fiscal cliff, the death tax would have been 55 percent on all estates worth $1 million or more. The new number is 40 percent for estates valued at $5 million.

But there is another tax increase that will hit every wage earner in America. That is the payroll tax collected for Social Security, which will rise from 4.2 percent to 6.2 percent. This is because a temporary reduction in payroll taxes that Congress approved two years ago, ostensibly to help stimulate the economy, expired on Jan. 1.

So every person earning $50,000 a year or more will pay an additional $1,000 in payroll taxes. So much for the myth that only “millionaires and billionaires” will have to ante up to help pay for Obama’s additional spending.

Taken all together, the Congressional Budget Office says this compromise legislation will add $4 trillion to the national debt over the next 10 years. And even that estimate assumes that the budget cuts required by sequestration actually do take effect this year. I wouldn’t bet on it. Although the sequestration cuts were supposed to begin on Jan. 1, the fiscal cliff compromise kicked that can down the road for another two months.

The bottom line is that this legislation raises income taxes, capital gains taxes, dividend taxes, death taxes and payroll taxes. It is a huge victory for Obama and his big-spending buddies in Congress and a big setback for everyone who believes that Washington has a spending problem, not a revenue problem.

In effect, we’ve given some chronic alcoholics the keys to the liquor cabinets. And now we hope they will somehow sober up? Don’t count on it.

Until next time, keep some powder dry.

–Chip Wood

Chip Wood

is the geopolitical editor of PersonalLiberty.com. He is the founder of Soundview Publications, in Atlanta, where he was also the host of an award-winning radio talk show for many years. He was the publisher of several bestselling books, including Crisis Investing by Doug Casey, None Dare Call It Conspiracy by Gary Allen and Larry Abraham and The War on Gold by Anthony Sutton. Chip is well known on the investment conference circuit where he has served as Master of Ceremonies for FreedomFest, The New Orleans Investment Conference, Sovereign Society, and The Atlanta Investment Conference.

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  • Harold Olsen

    Yeah, they stuck it to us again. Bonehead voted for it and I saw a clip on our local cable news channel last night of him criticizing the deal he voted for as though he had voted against it. He’s as big a scumbag as Obama. The story also mentioned that the traitors in the House of Representatives reelected him to the Speakership. Once again, they are flipping the bird to the American people.

    • TeaParty Patriot (TPP)

      .
      I am a voting resident of Oklahoma. I am ashamed to say that both unhofe and coburn voted for this abomination presented to them only three minutes before a vote was taken. What’s the story you A-holes? Are you like the witch of the west pelosi and have to pass it before you can read it?
      .
      I will say this much. I will actively campaign for ANYONE who runs against these two. I understand that coburn has term limited himself to two terms and he is out of there GOOD RIDANCE. I will campaign for any TeaParty Patriot who runs against inhofe or even a “rat if no real conservative runs. I’m tired of being sold down the river by these a-holes.
      .

      • Robert Smith

        Tell you what TeaParty…

        We can trade. You give me your income, I’ll happily pay the taxes on what you make and you can have my income and the lower taxes.

        You get what you want… lower taxes.

        I get what I want, a high income.

        And I won’t gripe about the system.

        Rob

      • Willie Bee

        Tell you what Rob. I only make 35,000 and I’m taking a 2% hit on an already miserable income.

      • JC

        Robert Smith says:
        January 4, 2013 at 2:36 pm
        Tell you what TeaParty…

        We can trade. You give me your income, I’ll happily pay the taxes on what you make and you can have my income and the lower taxes.
        ________________________________________________________________

        Maybe you just need to do something that merits more income….

      • Mike in MI

        J C -
        Nah, JC, Rob Smith is like most others of the liberal genome who, just because they suck wind, feel they deserve to have TeaParty ( and most other unwilling, coerced patriots) do the work, take TP’s income and enjoy the fruits of iniquity.

      • Susan Lantz

        I don’t think that anyone (I did not read all the posts) realize that those in the higher income range will pay those higher taxes. I do not see where they took away the “Loop holes” so these people still have a way to “weasle out” of paying them. There are ways that the higher income people have, that we can not use, to decrease the income taxes that they are supposed to pay. If they do not use this they will just ask Obama to forgive their taxes and get away without paying them anyway.

        • macgyver1948

          Susan Lantz… You are so right in what you say. Not only can the very wealthy afford better tax advice they can afford better benefits from the advantages. For example, when bush jr lowered the Capital Gains tax to its current low level he did so for himself and his wealthy buddies although we all can take advantage to some smaller extent. What I mean is the more you can afford to invest the more you benefit from both the “Capital Gains” itself but also from the tax break. Many very wealthy live on it as Romney has.

          The “loop holes” are, as you say, for those who can afford them so the very wealthy, and close, will not pay as much in taxes as it seems. Besides, the tax breaks bush jr gave his very wealthy buddies was billed as “temporary”, I am not sure they would have passed then if they weren’t billed that way, so it should go away as we need them to, as in yesterday.

          You said “If they do not use this they will just ask Obama to forgive their taxes and get away without paying them anyway”. Yep and better than those who aren’t very wealthy can.

          “the rich get richer…
          The poor get poorer…
          life goes on…”

          This old expression, paraphrased a bit maybe, is true because in order for the rich to get richer it has to come from some place and the poor, the UN-wealthy in general, get poorer because of it. It is up to each of us to change that for ourselves because we cannot depend on Government in general or the TPGOP to do it for us.

      • Mike in MI

        That’s probably about the most accurate description of the liberal version of “fairness” I every saw.

        • macgyver1948

          Mike in MI … well it is a Tea Party version of what Liberals think, feel and believe. It doesn’t have anything to do with the reality of Liberals but go on making up things of those who do not agree with you if it makes you feel better.

      • Mike in MI

        my above is to Susan Lantz

      • William C.

        You can have all of my ‘tea party’ money. I have none. I just know what is fair and that is not having other people pay my way. My mother taught me not to steal and that is what this is all about – stealing from others to enrich those that will not work for it.

      • Motov

        I’m anti-incumbent, vote ‘em all out! Vote in 3rd party, send the spenders packing!
        Then tell them NO pensions on the taxpayer’s dime! If they are retirement age then they get Social Security like the rest of us, if not they will have to find a job like everyone else.
        Wake up America! These politicians don’t care for you or this nation, We are BROKE we cannot continue to spend like a teenager with a credit card who thinks they have unlimited credit. And WE cannot spend ourselves out of a recession! With our current bill, WE need a balanced budget amendment 50 years ago!! The gravy train ride is over!.

        • macgyver1948

          Motov … I so much agree. We have to control spending and we have to put our employees in their place, both elected and appointed. We have to treat our employees as any corporation would treat employees. Congress must be subjected to all that they subject us to and that, as you included, means they get Social Security not not a pension from us. That should get them to fast make SS solvent. We cannot give them better bennies than we get ourselves.

          So, we scare our employees more than the huge money has been scaring/threatening and controlling them all these years with their huge money and pledges that hurt us. We do that at the next polling time and from then on.

          There is something called Congressional Reform Act of 2012 that looks very good but it needs a little work and it will take such huge numbers of us demanding it. We need to do something before we all see ourselves on the retail store TVs showing some guy asking people in other countries to sponsor an American so he/she can eat right and drink clean water – “Please call now at 1-800-HELPAGRINGO”.

          The middle class is very much shrinking and we are the ones to stop it before it is too late, not when that phone number is advertised.

    • Bob

      They don’t even address the out of control spending which is the real problem. There all lazy and self serving and we keep getting screwed constantly. The way they add pork onto these bills should be illegal it’s obviously unethical, but who said they had ethics. Very treasonous.

      • http://www.facebook.com/benjamin.fox.98892 Benjamin Fox

        And obozo rewarded them with a raise? Stupid dictator’s one and all of them with the head Hitler in-charge.

    • don m

      It isn’t hard to find citizens willing to put their life on the line for family and country. Today, it’s easy to find deserters running with the enemy and traitors ruling and laying waste to the House, Senate, and Executive branches of government. This nation is losing a war at home and across the globe. Real information is here, there, & everywhere, but our officials deny truth exists, because guards are afraid to shoot the enemy because they might awaken their sleeping comrades!

      “Passing a 153 page trillion dollar spending and taxation bill without checks and balances or deliberate budget; and without reading or knowing who, what, and why it was written defines (fraud and) treason!” They also – “…simultaneously oversee and protect mass counterfeiting of currency and consumption bonds, to create illusions of ability to pay, integrity, and solvency of $16.5 trillion debt that can’t be legitimately paid!” “The process of creating trillions of zero risk debt for immediate consumption not only destroys capital; it will collapse and enslave our nation!”

      “Our executives have created a diversionary war between working citizens and the capital they create. Imagine, unions actually winning their war against their pension plan capitalism… and eventually realizing there will be no golden egg because (the dumb bastards) killed their golden goose”!

      They oversee and protect lower & middle income worker’s SSI, & “after 46 years of ($450 a month) deposits, average workers get “$1235/mo ($192,660 13 year payback to age 78). – because they’re using 2.8 worker deposits to pay one retiree benefit.” They stole the capital (devalued purchase power – no interest on no money favors – and pillage).

      “It’s the US government’s war against capitalism! If average workers understood that the capital, (46yr @$450/mo @ 5% & 13yr payback with 5%) provides wealth, jobs, and ever increasing standards of living for everyone would also make them $1.3 millionaires (total benefits) for the same cost as government’s phony SSI $1235/mo.”

      THINK!!! “Pay as you go” defines a Ponzi scheme that is polar opposite a “trust fund”, Communist and Shariah compliant Zero interest destroyed US productive infrastructures!
      Remember Mau? Spin the money, global monopolist tracks, the goods you can’t produce, to the consumption debt back and forth, fast enough, and you’ll turn into butter…
      THOUGHT: Condemnation and scorn relieves anger caused by deception and theft. Prosecution and punishment eliminates that perverse painful cycle! Pass it on – drown them in truth! Reward true virtue!

      • gunner

        You are absolutely correct. Social security and union pensions are both ponzi schemes – using the income from current workers to pay the benefits to retirees. Both are about to come crashing down because the reality is that there aren’t enough current workers to support the retirees. Workers in this country need to be proactive in their retirement plans and not rely solely on social security or union pensions. Those can be a part of your retirement plan and hopefully there will be something left in those funds when you reach retirement but without personal savings and investments, you’ll be up a creek without a paddle.

        • macgyver1948

          Gunner… What would you say to the retires who spent their working lives paying into Social Security for when they retire? Would you tell them, “too bad, we do not need or care about you now so go starve and get off the rolls? We used your money so forget about it”. That would be theft on the part of the Government and it would very much show a total lack of compassion but then for those who want to eliminate SS they do not seem to have any. Go tell it to your religious leaders if you believe in God and see what they say.

          I agree workers should plan better while they worked but many did not for some reason and many others could not because they weren’t making enough to do so. We can’t let let them die off when they paid into the system. What would that say about America, the country to envy? Without compassion what envy?

          Do you even know what Social Security is for and how it is needed? Social Security is one of the expenses in Corporations and that is one of the main things, along with payroll and other expenses, execs want to reduce. Along with the help of the TPGOP they are accomplishing that at our expense. See the unemployment rolls? Many people were made unemployed by the execs and they do not want to be. Retirement with the help, and in many case the only help, of Social Security is the only way many retirees can survive. It is their money too, it is not charity or welfare or a handout.

  • Doc Sarvis

    Yes, getting out of the 2008 economic crash is painful. Most Americans realize that would be the case. President Obama presented his plan to keep America on the positive economic track he put us on during the run up to the election. A strong majority of American voters agreed with that plan and voted him back for another term. Even most members of the House saw the mandate for what it was. Neither side got all that it wanted but we finally get a little movment toward compromise on both sides to help us move forward.

    • http://google rose

      No. It was not a majority of people that voted Obama in. It might have been slightly over half the nation who voted him in. We are a divided nation. Half the nation believes in personal responsibility and the other half puts their faith in the government (beast) to take care of them.

      • CB

        the ones that DID NOT vore are the ones who put “O”: in office. When you have a majority receiving handouts they don’t bite the hand that feeds them.

      • Doc Sarvis

        I think most of the country’s population believe in and lead a life of personal responsiblility.

      • Paul Wells

        Except YOU, Doc Sarvis, to blatantly act like little Barack can do no wrong, and doesn’t spend like a drunken sailor!! When are you going to wake up to what is going on??? This bill (as well as many other irresponsible pieces of legislation enacted) are going to insure our children and their children will be saddled with debt forever!

      • Jim C.

        Your right when you say ” government (beast)! Its the beast alright! People just don’t realize how much of a beast or “the beast” it is. I’m a firm believer in the teaching of the Bible. And not just a verse here ore there, but the Bible chapter by chapter verse by verse. Reading it like any other book. When studied in whole what’s happening today go right along with the bible. When you said “beast” you just don’t know how right you are!!!!!!!!!!!!!

      • DaveH

        Rose said — “No. It was not a majority of people that voted Obama in. It might have been slightly over half the nation who voted him in”.
        It’s worse than you think, Rose. The vote for Obama was 65,899,660. Considering that our population is estimated at 313,847,465 people, that puts the percentage of the population who voted for Obama at 21%.
        So 21% of the population has doomed us to increased Government Spending for their personal choices. That is exactly why our Founders tried to certify Limited Government, but unfortunately the drive by Leaders to enhance their Power and Perks was more than the drive by the citizens to stop them from it.
        Something to consider:
        Up to 1900 total Government Spending was less than 3% of our GDP.
        Then by 1910 it rose to 8% of our GDP.
        Now total Government Spending is 41% of our GDP.
        What have we gotten for all that Government?
        Two World Wars. Many smaller military conflicts.
        One Great Depression for 14 years. And many smaller recessions.
        And I guess that includes a shrinking middle class according to the Liberal Progressives. Of course we really can’t rely on them for any true facts.

      • Motov

        Let’s face facts here, Romney was no different from OhBozo, and certainly not different than the Shrub. Had he won, We would still been the same mess with the same government that is way over bloated that is killing this nation. We need a Ron Paul, but WE simply blew it. Only a Constitutionary government can save this ailing nation.

      • http://gillysrooms.blogspot.com Gillysrooms from Australia

        Your right with what you say Rose but a majority is one vote more and either the majority rules or you have chaos and disruption which is what we have now. The majority are the theives who tax those with income and assets, but this has been going on for centuries and despite Dr Ron Paul giving 40 good years of his life for the cause..even the Republicans rejected and be-littled him, because they too wish to continue spending your taxes they way they want NOT the way the Democrats want .

        The only way to reduce that debt fast is to stop spending on big ticket items like the military…but you wont or should not do that, or you could stop all welfare payments but you would be less safe in your own homes for the desparate and hungry looking for food and lodgings in vacant homes. You could sack several hundred thousand police and other government workers including some of your own relatives who work for the government…but I doubt you will want them living with you when they default on their mortgage or car payments. The Feds could stop or cancel maintenace contracts for paintind and repairing government buildings for a couple years might save a few $billion, but the unions will get upset and the corporations who donated to the Republicans who have those contracts wont be happy either. Now remember when you stop government money going to welfare, or sacking police and government workers and other contracts which require painters and plumbers to be employed….all those people who might have car loans or house loans will most likely default on these payments and start another banking crisis and we dont want that.

        So Rose unless you have an actual list of savings in the $BILLIONS WHICH WONT RESULT IN BANK FAILURES AGAIN…THE ONLY OTHER OPTION IS INFLATION. Yes printing more money and creating the illusion of a growing GDP when really is is a combination of inflation and taketed expenditure of government money making it look like your nation is prosperous.

        Good old inflation seems to keep us going every time and maybe Republicans and supporters have to learn how to profit from inflation better and I know many of your rich made most of their money through the effects of inflation over the long haul if we lucky to live that long.

        The reason each administration whether it be Democrat or Republicans spend tax money the way they do…is basically to deliver the notion that your country has rising employment, HOWEVER there comes a time in every economic cycle when unemployment just has to rise without the government trying to stop it from rising naturally. The Federal Reserve has that role but at zero interest it has few tools left to help your economy except print or borrow more money to create incremental inflation to hide the economic failures of YOUR politicians from both camps.

        Anyway my point is that I figure its better to have more people on a very basic government welfare than have these huge deficits which I bet cost much more per year than the welfare budget going up higher due to the consequention higher rate of unemployment. Some of you might say I’m being illogical and it would be unfair, but i say its cheaper to pay welfare than pay extra government workers on normal full pay with benefits…well thats the case in Australia and I might be wrong in the USA. Please correct me if I am wrong, but essentially its not the job of the Federal Government to create useless non productive jobs ….its the job of the free market and the business sector to provide the real jobs to produce goods and services the public wish to purchase freely imo.

        I do feel many of you who are stuck in your old ideas boxes need to think outside your old ideas square and understand that polticians in general react to the pressures you the voters put on them…so what I’m saying if you all agree NOT to blame Obama for the unemployment rate …he might just forget about those useless job creation programs. Let him have a larger welfare budget for more basic welfare payments so people can still buy food and lodgings from landlords and shopkeepers when unemployed…. and you will see the budget bottom line get better slowly, because the govts wont need to patch the unemployment with highly paid unemployed people doing useless government jobs..

        The problem needs to be solved logically but I doubt a disorganised group will be able to understand the value of my opinions

      • Average Joe

        The Liberal Psalm 666

        The State is my shepherd,
        I shall not want.
        It makes me lie down in federally owned pastures.
        It leads me beside quiet waters in banned fishing areas.
        It restores my soul through its control.
        It guides me in the path of dependency for its namesake.
        Even though our nation plunges into the valley of the shadow of debt,
        I will fear no evil,
        For Barack will be with me.
        The Affordable Care Act and food stamps,
        They comfort me.
        You prepare a table of Michelle Obama approved foods before me in the presence of my Conservative and Libertarian enemies.
        You anoint my head with hemp oil;
        My government regulated 16-ounce cup overflows.
        Surely mediocrity and an entitlement mentality will follow me
        All the days of my life,
        And I will dwell in a low-rent HUD home forever and ever.
        Amen.

        Psalm 666

        AJ

      • Bill

        Good one, Average Joe

      • woodbutcher

        Sorry Rose, it was a majority that voted for the President ! The President won by over 3 million votes ! Which is a larger % then G.W. Bush, in 2000 and 2004 !

        • Frank Kahn

          Rose is right, it was just the majority of the people who voted not the majority of the population.

        • macgyver1948

          woodbutcher and rose… Just to add my 2 cents. Actually gw bushie did NOT win the popular vote in 2000, he really did lose that, but he did win the Electoral Vote some how. That is something for The Twilight Zone’s Rod Serling to figure out.

          woodbutcher your are so right, Obama did win the popular vote because the majority of voters voted for him and themselves. He won the Electoral vote too by a huge number. The results were something like:
          Popular Vote:

          Obama 62,280,959 50.6%

          Romney 58,899,127 47.08%

          Electoral Vote:

          Obama 332

          Romney 206

      • merid

        You are absolutely right Rose. what happened to people taking responsibility for their own lives…I guess its easier to put your hand out and expect those that have been successful and worked hard to take care of you.

      • nobodysfool

        Doc Sarvis, off your meds again, I see. “Most people are productive”?? Oh, I see, you’re smoking weed again, too. No, most people are non-productive leeches (like you) and take the earnings, via taxation, of those who actually ARE productive. That’s a fact, Doc. Even the shamestream media admit that so you must too. Please tell me how your life will be enhanced by paying more taxes?? Oh yes, you are one of the takers, of course it will enhance your life. You can get that wall-size plasma tv you’ve always wanted.

    • CB

      I would like to see your point of view but I cannot get my head that far up my a _ _ to do that.

    • Scott

      Making a compremise for something that is wrong is never a good thing. Most americans have to cut spending and do without because of the spend crazy obama. We went 2 years without a cost of living raise while prices went up, that is money we lost for a life time, not just for 1 year, so for the 2 years of no COLA my wife and I lost 200 a month for life, not to mention obama care causing my ins prem to go from 180, where they had been for 20 years, to 520.

      Also lets not forget the endless vacations obama and his wife take, the hundreds of millions he sends overseas to rebuild mosque, nor the 10 day vacation where he took 1500 people to india for 10 days at 2 million dollars a day, that was 2 billion dollars.

      If you want compremise, thats fine, I dont, how about congress and senate compremise and drop their unreal salaries in half, and no keeping their full salary for life, be like the rest of america and get a percentage based on how many years they work. It is absurd that they can do a term or even part of a term and get their $200,000 for life

      • Doc Sarvis

        Please document your claims of; “the hundreds of millions he sends overseas to rebuild mosque, nor the 10 day vacation where he took 1500 people to india for 10 days at 2 million dollars a day, that was 2 billion dollars.”

      • Scott
      • Paul Wells

        For the benefit of lazy Doc, who can’t research anything himself:

        http://frontpagemag.com/2012/frank-crimi/obama-rebuilds-mosques-while-churches-burn/

      • Paul Wells

        Now, Doc…[comment has been edited]..please document anything that you said in your above posts is true. Just one!

      • Doc Sarvis

        Scott & Paul Wells (I wish I had seen your edited comment),

        Your two links on the mosque alligation were weak at best. How much of that part??? Both stories say that the State Dept. is sending money to save foreign mosques as PART of a $770 million program. This is an empty alligation.

        Still waiting on the 1,500 people vacation to India documentation.

      • Paul Wells

        Doc, I have no idea why my comment got edited…it wasn’t even rude, just simply challenging you to back up your assertions rather than simply call on us to research. Then once we did, you dismissed it as saying it didn’t happen, so there is no truth in you, you won’t recognize nor respect an opposing point of view. In short, you like some of the others are just lost sheep.

      • Doc Sarvis

        What do you dispute from what I said in my original post?

      • Jim C.

        You’re sure right! My premiums went up as soon as Obama care went into affect! And I’ve noticed a general dis interest in patient care where I go to the doctor. And now the doctor’s and staff have change their language, it use to be Me or I now they say “we’re trying to help you” we this we that. Like their not individuals anymore!
        WE, who is we. I guess next we will be calling each other “comrade” !!!!!!!!!!!

      • Paul Wells

        Doc, Oh, I dunno…your 5:25 am post in it’s entirety? Seems to be wishful thinking, conjecture, projection, or magic mirrors….take your pick.

      • Doc Sarvis

        Paul Wells, Okay, start from the beginning. Do you dispute that the economic collape was painful?

      • Paul Wells

        Doc, Yes. I dispute that the collapse was painful. It was only painful for MOST of us, not ALL of us. Next point?

      • Steve E

        Scott, Doc is a perfect example of a lib that does not accept the truth even when it is in his face. But he is one of very many. I see the U.S. gave money to a mosque so they could have internet service. Maybe they should subscribe to PLD now. :)

      • Doc Sarvis

        Paul Wells, Hold on there, I am not going to concede to anything you say. That is your opinion. What American was not affected negatively by the collapse?

      • DaveH

        When have you ever posted references to anything you’ve said, Doc Sarvis?

      • Doc Sarvis

        DaveH
        Fairly often.
        Just look below.

      • DaveH

        I say bull-scat, Doc.
        That’s the only one I’ve seen you post, and it’s of course bogus. I mean how dare they expect IDs before we vote for how to spend other peoples’ money? What next? Are they going to demand that Criminals show their IDs before they Rob a Bank?

    • maggiemoo

      W T F????

      • maggiemoo

        (My comment was meant for Doc Sarvis.)

      • Doc Sarvis

        Your question must be; Why The Facts???
        There just seems to be a need to reveal truth to folks on this site.

      • Paul Wells

        Doc, you are another Karolyn, eddie47d, Jeff, Flashy (I’m sure I’m leaving some of the idiots out) that just can’t seem to associate what goes on with reality…some type of cognitive dissonance going on with you and your leftist crew. Don’t talk about the truth, you don’t know any!

      • momo

        Sarvis, you wouldn’t no truth if hit hit you upside the head.

      • Average Joe

        Doc Sarvis Says:
        “There just seems to be a need to reveal truth to folks on this site.”

        I am guessing that you prefer lies to truth ( so, long as it makes you feel better)?

        Oh wait, wasn’t it you that posted:

        Doc Sarvis says:

        January 4, 2013 at 7:37 am

        Please document your claims of; “the hundreds of millions he sends overseas to rebuild mosque, nor the 10 day vacation where he took 1500 people to india for 10 days at 2 million dollars a day, that was 2 billion dollars.”

        So, it’s ok that you want the truth…but not alright if the rest of us want the same….hmmmmm? Hypocracy…thy name is Doc Sarvis…Ph.D…in Stupidity and Newspeak…and evading the issues.

        AJ

      • Doc Sarvis

        Average Joe,
        As far as I can tell, that statement about the mosques and the India vacation are both false.

      • Average Joe

        Doc Sarvis

        “As far as I can tell, that statement about the mosques and the India vacation are both false.”

        Prove it! (with something other than your lame opinion).
        Go ahead..open mouth and switch feet..because we all know that you won’t provide anything to back up your claims..other than your opinion…

        AJ

      • Doc Sarvis

        Average Joe,
        From my research on the topics (mosques & India vacation) I found NO documentation that validates the claims made. Can’t prove the negative.

      • Average Joe

        Doc. Sarvis,
        Reading comprehension problems? I’ll try again (read slower if you need to).
        Prove it! (with something other than your lame opinion).

        AJ

      • Right Brain Thinker

        Another day of mindlessness on PLD. Gillysroom posts a rather lengthy and thoughtful piece that should invite some discussion and does he get any? Nope. And not from me either because I’m going to waste my “look in on PLD time in the afternoon time” on this comment instead.

        AJ posts for us a completely plagiarized “Psalm 666″ and wags his tail over his cleverness. Sure enough, Bill pats him on the head and this will encourage AJ to come back later in the thread. CB tells us that he does his best thinking when his head is up his anal orifice (undoubtedly true), and Scott posts a whole bunch of horsepucky on several topics that is full of untruths and distortions. Can it sink any farther into the swamp?

        Sure can. Doc Sarvis recognizes the fact that there is much horsepucky in Scott’s posting and politely asks Scott for some documentation. That leads to a whole string of 15 or 20 shared inanities, the high point of which is (below) Average Joe nipping at Doc’s heels because AJ thinks he is “top dog” here (something he never is and therefore wants badly) and has Doc on the run. Doc continues to try to talk sense to folks who have none, and the inanities are bolstered by some citations of “proof” from Scott and Paul Wells. Sounds like a script from a Three Stooges Movie (and some of the PLD Stooges ARE here to lend credence to that—-their leader DaveH chipped in with a complete inanity in the middle of the string).

        Time for my two cents—-get out your list of names to call RBT, girls, because I won’t take long and you don’t want to be left behind when the name-calling parade starts. Where to begin? How about with the general observation that all this horsepucky really comes under the heading of folks saying “I hate O’Bama and will believe any and all horsepucky that supports my hate and will spread it as if it was true”. The next step is to find any small truth and distort it and blow it up out of proportion as proof that we all should “hate” O’Bama. That’s what we’ve got here.

        Looking at the two sources that Doc said were “inadequate” (they were), as well as several others, one can discover the following.

        YES, we DID spend money on rebuilding some mosques. As part of the USAIDS program begun some 50 years ago, under which we have built and rebuilt many things, including some Christian churches. Does it add up to “hundreds of millions”? NO, the $770 million program in Egypt that DID include some money to rebuild a mosque was really a sewer project, the mosque was almost an afterthought (it sat on top of the sewer pipes), and was a very small part of the total $$ spent. Is it O’Bama who is sending all this money and is more being sent under him than under previous presidents? Doesn’t look that way—it’s the agency that’s doing it, and they have done it under every President going back to JFK.

        Are crazy things being done by Muslims regarding burning Christian churches and so on? They sure are, and I would suggest that folks go look up CRUSADES to see that it has been going on in both directions for 1000 years and it just might NOT be O’Bama’s fault that Muslims are beating up on some Christians right now in a part of the world where it is not news (and throw the Jews in the pot also to get the right “seasoning”).

        I had to laugh at the “sources” also. Aside from being obviously biased, one of them had a serious math problem. When one followed the links back for further info, “three bulldozed churches” turned into TWO and “eleven burned churches” turned into just FIVE. Is there such a thing as “exaggeration of truth deflation”?—-you know, the more you trace things back and the closer to the real truth you get, the smaller the truth gets?

        Enough said. Can I make a plea here? Can we spend our time trying to act as if we have half a brain rather than getting pumped up over the distractions that our masters put out there to keep us from focusing on the real problems? Like why we are in this “fiscal cliff” situation and why we are having such a difficult time resolving it?

        PS Don’t forget that a lot of what’s going on over there is really “Bush’s Fault”, and that it was Reagan who started the whole terrorist thing anyway by allowing them to blow up 241 good Marines in Beirut and doing nothing in retaliation.

      • DaveH

        Lizard Brain,
        The guy who claims he used to be a school administrator (of what, sanitation services?) issues his usual comment laden with personal attacks.
        Those readers, who might wonder how our school system can put out such characters, can read this and get their answer:
        http://mises.org/daily/6333/Labor-Unions-Thugs-And-Storm-Troopers

      • Right Brain Thinker

        So, I say, “Time for my two cents—-get out your list of names to call RBT, girls, because I won’t take long and you don’t want to be left behind when the name-calling parade starts”.

        And the girl known as Lizard Brain Eater, aka DaveH, who eats only DEAD lizard brains because he’s not smart enough to figure out how to catch a live one, takes the bait and makes another of his patented stupid remarks. He also gives us another meaningless %#%$%@* mises.org reference in an attempt to distract us. Distract us from what, you ask?

        Obviously, from examining the truth of what I said. Standard shill/troll behavior—-distract and disrupt, change the subject. I’m surprised that he didn’t just move off to some other dark corner of this thread or another one to do his ugly little tricks. All the others in the string—-Scott, AJ, and Paul—-seem to have recognized that my arguments were really unanswerable and it would be fruitless to carry it further, why isn’t DaveH as smart as they are?

        Just to see if anyone is paying attention, Dave does his usual trick of making a comment that consists of nothing BUT personal attacks as he accuses me of making personal attacks. I noticed, Dave, even if no one else did.

        PS Yes Dave, one of the tasks of a school administrator could be called “sanitation services”. Although we studied no formal curriculum with that title, we all got to be quite good at “flushing” fools like you down the drain. I often “flushed” several like you down the drain on any given day during the time it took me to walk from my car in the parking lot to my office. One of the nice things about “fools that need flushing” is that they often climb right up on the rim of the bowl and beg for it. Just like you.

      • DaveH

        And that, Folks, is your typical Liberal Progressive who wants to make your choices and take your money. Lovely isn’t it?

        • macgyver1948

          DaveH… Can you explain how it is typical, except in the minds of those who claim they know liberals from the Right, when many “typical Liberal Progressive” (I do not know any who feel as you say) do not want to take your money or make your choices. You have been lied to about us and this is not unique when it comes to what you are told about us.

        • deerinwater

          David say , “And that, Folks, is your typical Liberal Progressive who wants to make your choices and take your money. Lovely isn’t it?”

          I say, so ~ who would you prefer to ‘do’ this? Or are you suggesting that some Libertarian ideas of no government at all would work best ~ ? Strap on our irons and met each other out in the street? Last man standing wins? Where he was right or not of little import.

          I don’t think that you have anything to steal David, probably letting bullies take your lunch money since grade school, which would explain your demure.

          You need to have something worth stealing to worry about it.

          I have people stealing from me everyday, ~ steal it back and quit making a big deal about it. submitting your income tax forms is no different , unless of course you are a short form kinda guy. You don’t need to be filing any short form.

          The idea is to have enough to steal David. I don’t think that you have got to that point yet and most likely never will as the fear of losing has you froze in your tracks. ~ You seem to be a do nothing. i don’t know what sustains you but I’m 65% certain that you didn’t work for it. ~ that is the only thing that would explain your enigma. Words of wisdom out of the clouds of infinity.

          I could subscribe to Libertarian views but for people like yourself David. One day you are an able Ambassador for Libertarian views and the next day you destroy all your hard work with your foul disposition toward opposition and resort to name calling like a child.
          Showing no interest in resolve or resolution~ but only “I got you last”!

          A little Sand Box 101 refresher course would do you good. Call the game anything you wish, ~but instilling other people respect is what makes good things happen. Void this respect, ~ you are all alone and will never enjoy other people cooperation or their support.

      • DaveH

        Deer says — “One day you are an able Ambassador for Libertarian views and the next day you destroy all your hard work with your foul disposition toward opposition and resort to name calling like a child”.
        Isn’t that interesting that Deer would say such a thing after one long personal attack.
        I treat Liberal Progressives like they treat me, Deerinheadlights. That includes you. If you want respect you have to give it.

        • Deerinwater

          Ahh! How sweet! David is exposing his soft side. ~ You will receive what you send out David. ~ Just consider that a law of nature. ~ I’m only limited by time and a busy life whole you seem to have a surplus , which makes us even because you will need it with me.

          Chip says; “Although Barack Obama campaigned on promises to raise taxes for anyone making more than $200,000 a year and couples earning $250,000, the final legislation raised the base a bit higher. The new limit is families and small-business owners earning $450,000 a year. They will see their personal income tax rate go from 35 percent to 41 percent”

          Well Chip? It’s a GOP lead Congress ~ what can be said? All Shucks? This tax bracket usually has a face card in the hole, I wouldn’t loose too much sleep over their suffering. I’d prefer to see 37% tops, ~ they will get creative and work their tax liability down and you know they will. ~ Don’t you?

        • Deerinwater

          If I want anything out if you David , I’ll squeeze your head.

      • DaveH

        Deer says — “I could subscribe to Libertarian views but for people like yourself David”.

        I can’t speak for the others, Deer, but I don’t want you in my Party. Your kind would only dilute our Principles.

        • Deerinwater

          Good! if all the rest of them are anything like you it never will be much of party. A bunch of people in wheel chairs, mad because the world passed them by, spitting hate a venom, attempting to convince everyone that will give them the time of day just how bright they are.

      • DaveH

        Hate and venom?
        You mean because you lose the debates, Deer?
        You Liberal Progressives crack me up. It’s like you don’t credit the readers with enough sense to simply read your past comments and see who’s doing the personal insulting and spouting nonsense. Unlike spoken words, Deer, you have left a semi-permanent record for any curious readers to peruse.

      • Right Brain Thinker

        Uh-oh. DaveH is going into one of his patented little “evasion of truth” dances here, with his “covering fire” technique of spraying a burst of inanities in quick succession in the hopes that it will cause some of us to keep our heads down while he regroups.

        Sorry, Dave, that always worked for me when real bullets snapped by and the bits of leaves started falling like snowflakes, but when you “fire” on PLD, I always stand up taller to make sure I don’t miss any of your hilarious stupidities—-you know, the ones that never hit the target (unless the target is again proving to all of us that you are generally useless—THAT one you seldom miss). Round one fired at 9:45, round two at 9:47—-I am going to write a long comment here, so it’s safe to say that Dave will likely fire more while I write—-i will be missing nothing important, I’m sure.

        And this comment, folks, is a typical DaveH inanity. The kind of thing he fires when he is attempting to evade the truth and distract us. Only TWENTY-THREE words (and not correctly punctuated), NINE of them being Dave’s old and hackneyed stock inanities like “typical Liberal Progressive”, “make your choices”, and “take your money.” So old, so trite, so adolescent, so meaningless, so mindless, so Dave.

        And I don’t want to argue with someone who has also been called a “communist-socialist-marxist” by the knuckle draggers, but macgyver1948 insists on trying to reason with Dave and I hate to see him waste his time (and clutter up the thread since Dave will NEVER respond with anything but more inanities—-see 9:45 and 9:47 for proof). Dave has not only been lied to, but he has heard the real truth. Since he is either a paid shill who only spouts the “truth” that his masters provide OR he is a deluded and mindless motivated reasoner of the worst kind, he will NOT respond to your reasonableness. Why waste the time being reasonable?

        Congratulations to deerinwater for one of his better postings on PLD. I particularly like what he says about Libertarianism and how poorly DaveH serves the Libertarian cause. “I could subscribe to Libertarian views but for people like yourself David. One day you are an able Ambassador for Libertarian views and the next day you destroy all your hard work with your foul disposition toward opposition and resort to name calling like a child. Showing no interest in resolve or resolution~ but only “I got you last”!.

        One of the many thoughts that are always flashing through the brain of a pattern-seeking right brain thinker has just “connected up” with others and stuck. DaveH asked me on another thread who I thought he might be shilling for and I gave him a list of right wingy-nut groups. It had been in the back of my head but deer’s comments here brought it forward. How about this? DaveH really is a shill/troll for some Lib-Prog group and it’s his job to make Libertarians and conservatives look bad. His paycheck depends on it! I could believe that—-way more easily than that Dave is really serious about what he says.

        Deer’s closing comments on respect are good also, but Dave will likely not take the course because of his ADD. I know that “respect” WAS and IS being taught in schools (PUBLIC), because it was one of the things I taught, along with “consequences”. Dave has trouble paying attention to anything but the voices of self-delusion rattling around in his head and no amount of “special ed” will help him overcome that..

        Deer’s conjecture about Davey’s school days also got me thinking. Deer said, “I don’t think that you have anything to steal David, probably letting bullies take your lunch money since grade school…”

        Having had considerable experience with bullies in school, I have a small parable/story to tell. (I know all you anti-public school, anti-education, anti-THINKING types just love my school stories). Bullying of little kids in grade school is never acceptable, even if they are runty, whiny, dumb, and thoroughly annoying, as DaveH likely was (and still is—-how tall are you Dave? You “talk” around 5’5″ or 5’6″). Things change somewhat in high school, where “kids” are turning into “young adults”. We still had to deal with bullying, but also had to try to teach lessons on how not to invite it—-that being runty, whiny, dumb, and thoroughly annoying ON PURPOSE was likely to get you whipped. Those who took it upon themselves to teach the “Daves” a lesson in “respect” and “consequences” would say to me, “I can’t believe you’re on my case for whipping up on “Dave”—-he needs to have his butt whipped every day until he stops being (runty, whiny, dumb, and thoroughly annoying etc. ON PURPOSE)”. Hard to argue with that but the “rules” demanded that I do so and I did.

        All that leads me to one of the fondest memories I have from my school administration days. On one fine spring day while walking the halls during lunch, I came around a corner and found a 6’4″ 240 pound defensive lineman holding a runty “Dave” off the floor and against the wall with a hand around his throat. I gave them a cheery “Good morning, gentlemen” and walked on by. Why did I walk on by, you may ask?

        I walked on by because the “runty Dave” was one of a rat pack of losers who had been picking on a totally blind ninth-grader. They took and hid his cane and brailler in class, threw grapes at him in the cafeteria during lunch, and sneaked up on him in the hallways and yelled “boo” in his ear. In spite of several suspensions and parent conferences, it was still occurring, although the little sneaks were being even more “clever” and harder to catch. One of the reasons they may have not listened to my admonishments was that some of their parents were pretty sorry too—-some had said to me things like “boys will be boys”, “they were only kidding around”, and my favorite, “they were just trying to make him feel like one of the group”. A corollary to “Guns don’t kill people, people do” is “Bad kids aren’t born that way, they need bad parenting too”.

        At any rate, the way that I got the rat pack to lay off the blind kid was to call down the captains of the football team and explain the situation to them. When I asked them if they could be young patriots and good school citizens and help me out, they said “Sure can and glad to do it”. So I provided them with copies of all the rat pack’s schedules and said “work it out—-the secretaries will issue passes to anyone who needs to get out of class early or go late to man their post—-give me a list to give to them”. My only real instruction was “No blood and no marks—-don’t include the crazier linebackers unless you can guarantee that”. Within the next week, I had the little “walk by” I described above and found several others among the rat pack sitting on chairs outside my office door, accompanied by one of the “guardians” and often several witnesses. We collectively, adults and young adults, finally whipped the problem. I issued multiple and lengthy suspensions and the rat pack finally gave it up. Of course, the sorry parent of the ringleader appealed his multiple suspensions on up the line (this parent was a US Army Major, believe it or not). When we got to the Assistant Superintendent level, he was told to take his complaint and shove it, that if he carried it to the next level, the recommendation from our side would be that his son be expelled from school. The Assistant Superintendent had been angered by what he heard from this parent, and unloaded on the Major (who wore his uniform, no less) just after he put a hand on my shoulder and said “Let me handle this”. He heard my comments to the parent and could see I was having a hard time not going over the table after him. End of story.

        Before anyone congratulates me on what a fine job I did running my school, let me say that I can’t take much too much credit—-I was employing what I learned from the folks at my PUBLIC high school back in the mid-1950′s, where the good school citizens amongst the student body were expected to help out and those of us on the football team were often specifically asked to do what I asked of the team 30 years later. Worked then and I would hope it is still working today.

        .

      • Right Brain Thinker

        Well said, Deerinwater

        “if all the rest of them are anything like you it never will be much of party. A bunch of people in wheel chairs, mad because the world passed them by, spitting hate and venom, attempting to convince everyone that will give them the time of day just how bright they are”.

        That comment is way more literate and interesting than Dave’s horsepucky. Speaking of which, you have provoked Dave into spouting some more of just that thing. And Dave’s incredible cluelessness in his latest comment rates THREE (maybe four?) Lord love a ducks.

        Dave actually thinks HE wins any debates? He actually thinks the readers don’t understand that HE is the one that has built up a string of THOUSANDS of comments, most of which are nothing but “personal insults” and the “spouting of nonsense”? Dave actually thinks that just because he says something here, it is TRUE? Lord love a duck again!

        And Dave talks about leaving “a semi-permanent record for any curious readers to peruse”. I find the “semi” part of that interesting because it appears that the record is quite permanent, and will remain so unless Bob Livingston starts purging his PLD archives.

        Maybe Dave missed my comment the other day when I said that googling “DaveH Personal Liberty Digest” will lead one to EVERY comment DaveH has ever posted on PLD. Try it out, all—-don’t waste your time looking at Dave’s crap though—-I’m doing that in my ongoing “The truth is coming to get you, Dave—-be afraid!” research efforts. Yes, Dave, I AM keeping score on you and your “multiple personality” cronies. and some interesting patterns ARE emerging.

        Just google your own PLD “handle” and “Personal Liberty Digest” and discover for yourself what the “record” shows. It’s interesting to see also what pops up when one googles just the names of those who were so foolish as to use their real names on PLD—-some of them even appear to have arrest records!—-LOL.

      • Deerinwater

        Yea David is something else, ~ I think I enjoy his little end zone celebrations the best, ~ Willing to claim a Victory after being pinned not once but two and three times arguing some superfluous point of no great consequence. David reminds me of wrestling with my nephews when they were small, ~ they could sure get serious about it. They would strut for two days when I let them pin me. ~ everybody enjoys a victory ~ where they earned it or not.

        What I find odd, is that David is not always this way. His demure is almost menopausal the last few days. I suspect David’s world is limited by a handicap, something that’s kicking his butt. ~ PLD is where he comes to be an equal , ~ the best way that he knows how. He reads! and politics seems to be his passion while “hands on” in the real world is something he’s never done.

        There nothing wrong with Libertarian ideas ~ they are noble ideas, ~ the problem is that they fail to take into accounting the way people are and the way people behave.

        People will not normally do what is in their best interest unless the rewards can be envision and in plain sight. Any effective government has to work on a very large scale, working on a 10 and 20 year plan. Government must “sell” it’s vision to those that can’t see it. More stick and less carrot , less stick and more carrot ~ while the Libertarians suggest that there no need for the carrot or stick. ~ A land of joy and happiness where~everyone enjoys their rewards, how they acquired them of no grand importance. But the nature of man would make any joy short lived. We might not enjoy the job, but we are our brothers keeper, and I do hate it so.

        A Libertarian vision is simply a hard sell to anyone that has been “around the block” more than twice. Jimmy Carter would have made a great libertarian, as it take that naive understanding of the world to be willing to trust matters of state to such a government.

        44 has committed America to a long term plan to economic stability and robust growth. While it’s true many fail to see it, or understand it and want things back as they were.
        It’s never been intended for yesterday to return. ~ Forward is the only direction of time.

        Yesterday is History
        Tomorrow a Mystery
        and Today a Gift
        We call the Present

        Eleanor Roosevelt

    • Warrior

      Taxing the “folks” and “compromising” is “hard work”. I think we need a vacation.

      • Capitalist at Birth.

        The wealthy are leaving this country in droves, as one would certainly expect. Predictable human reaction to the problem of a gang of thugs attempting to steal your wealth. I hope to join them as soon as my Father leaves this earth.

      • deerinwater

        Good! maybe things will get back to normal. ~ I wish they would give up their citizenship before they left.

      • Right Brain Thinker

        Right on, Capitalist at Birth. I will second deer and add the suggestion that you not wait but go right now—and take your father with you. He will likely get better health care at lower cost wherever you may take him anyway (or do you consider him to be just another one of the 47%?—-the “moochers” that are somehow standing in your way?) Not a very good display of “filial devotion” if that’s the case..

        And it’s not the “wealthy” that are leaving in droves, it’s the GREEDY RICH. The only “wealth” they possess in abundance is their greed and self-interest, and the country would be better off without them. They certainly are not patriots or good Christians—-if they were, they would show some concern for their fellow Americans and the greater good of this country rather than for their own narrow and selfish interests.

        Yeah, leave—SOON—-go follow the money that you have probably hidden offshore already—-you know, that money you have made being a CAPITALIST and stealing from the people who really earned it for you?. That money that you pay minimal taxes on and use not to create jobs but just to make more money for yourself? Just like Romney? He has disappeared and won’t be missed—-neither will you when you go..

        Maybe if enough of you leave and stop using your stolen riches to buy our “elected” representatives, we can try to get back to the “normal” that deer mentions.

        PS If you want an example of a wealthy person that is a patriot and does care for the greater good, look at Warren Buffett. He is certainly not giving it away or ceasing to accumulate ever more obscene quantities of it, but he IS patriotic enough to recognize the problem and the need to do something about it other than to run as you want to do.

    • Capitalist at Birth.

      Doc, Do you know what caused the 2007 economic collapse? I doubt that you do. As, with all the other ignorant people in this country, you probably blame it all on G.W. and the Republicans. I will debate the causes of this designed collapse with you anytime you choose. I predicted this collapse in 1998 and advised everyone I knew not to fall for the phony interest rates and loosened lending policies. Do you really think that it takes this long for economic recovery. Ah yes, it does when you have a Totalitarian Fascist in control like Obama or Roosevelt. You need to study history a little better, or you may remain ignorant of the facts.

      • Doc Sarvis

        I do know that the economic collapse was multifaceted.
        I do think it will take this long for an economic recovery especially when we were thrown into two costly wars (one of which was a complete fabrication which led to not focusing on the real “goal”) and keeping the financial burden of those wars off the books. Especially when, after the collapse, we continue to redistribute our economic resources to the top 1% therefore squeezing money out of the middle class.
        A Totalitarian Fascist? Please, President Obama has shown that even if he wanted to he can not dictate to Congress or the Supreme Court. He makes his policy appeals to the American public and they respond or not to their representation in Congress. His last big appeal to Americans happened to go his way – and the general population of our country, he won re-election.

      • Bill

        You are right CAB
        Our current economic downturn is a direct result of the bubble real estate market created by the liberals trying to make housing available to the poor.

        The carter recession was far worse than the current recession and it was turned around in three years by Reagan. The current policies of Obama and his merry bunch will continue to lead us to economic ruin.

        History has shown us what works and what does not. To create prosperity, you create more taxpayers not by penalizing the work makers. History has shown us that reducing taxes will create more revenue through the economic prosperity it creates.

        Instead, we are creating more takers than makers. That will just lead us to a european type economic collapse.

      • Capitalist at Birth.

        Why did it take over 16 years and didn’t finally happen until after World War II under the Fascist Roosevelt. Who by the way is one of Obama’s idols. You better do some reading, Doc. Your left wing mantra about the wars started by Obama’s fellow Islamist is very predictable. You may wish to debate the merits of HOW G.W. fought the war, but do you really want to debate the validity that we are in a war?

      • Capitalist at Birth

        Bill, And the revocation of the Glass Steagall Act, which if not re-enacted in some form will lead to further market booms and busts as banks continue to make bad investments that they should not be allowed to make, as they were previously prevented.

    • John

      Hey Doc, are your shoes too tight cutting off the flow of blood to your brain? Obama did not win the election. Once again election fraud reared its ugly head and screwed the American people. There is no “mandate” for Obama. All he is doing is the same thing GWB did, paying off his slave masters, the globalist bankers, draining this country’s wealth for the last 100 plus years.
      My New years wish for you and the rest of the parasites in this country sucking our productive capacity is total economic collapse. I’m prepared and I know you aren’t.

      • Doc Sarvis

        Please show me documentation of election fraud of a scale that favored President Obama. I saw more fraud from the Republican side as they tried to deny the right to vote to minorities in many states.

      • Paul Wells

        Doc, you are quick to challenge others to produce documentation to back up their claims. Now I’m calling on YOU to document “…more (fraud) on the Republican side, then on the D..”. Show us. Prove it.

      • Doc Sarvis
      • Paul Wells

        Doc Sarvis:
        Wait…an article from the UK from August, even before the election? I thought your exact words were “fraud” in the election. I expected you to document actual cases of voter fraud by Republicans against Democrats in the last election. My gosh…words…I guess they can be twisted any way, can’t they?

      • Steve E

        Doc’s reference to the web site only mentions the fact that states require you must have a valid ID to vote. Not anything was mentioned about voter fraud. Hey, if you are too stupid to get an ID, then you are probably too stupid to vote.

      • Doc Sarvis

        Paul Wells
        You claim that I used the words “fraud”. That sir, is one word. I did not use the phrase you posted; “”fraud” in the election.” YOU should read more carefully if your going to say I twisted words.
        My use of the term fraud includes disenfranchisement. Do you dispute that denying voters the right to vote is a form of fraud? There was disenfranchisement in the election in some states and some was averted by citizens and the courts.
        Reread what I wrote and you will see that I did NOT say “fraud in the election” even though, with disenfranchisement, there was some.

      • DaveH

        So Doc thinks requiring IDs to vote is akin to Fraud?
        I guess that makes sense coming from a Liberal Progressive who thinks “voting” to take other peoples’ money makes it something different than theft.
        Doc is a life-long member of the Society of Criminals:
        http://mises.org/daily/4125

      • Doc Sarvis

        DaveH,
        Putting words in my mouth again. I think requireing IDs to vote is fine myself. But making that requirement just months before a major election is disenfranchisement.

        Put it in place now so everyone has plenty of time to get the required ID before the next election.

      • Average Joe

        Doc Sarvis,

        “You claim that I used the words “fraud”. That sir, is one word. I did not use the phrase you posted; “”fraud” in the election.” YOU should read more carefully if your going to say I twisted words.”

        From your original post:

        “. I saw more fraud from the Republican side as they tried to deny the right to vote to minorities in many states.”

        Considering the fact that you mentioned “denying the right to vote”, one can only deduce that you are talking about “elections”…since you tend to vote…in elections.

        As previously stated by me and by others, you always want us to prove our claims to you…but you never feel the need to do the same in return. The one time that you do put up a link, not only does it NOT address your claim it consists of a single article, written by a foreign journalist (?)…with no background evidence to support those assertions….oh wait..it’s an opinion piece.
        Now I get it…you use someone else’s “opinion piece” to back up your own opinion… This guy has an opinion…you agree with his opinion…therefore his opinion (and yours by proxy) is the truth?How long did it take you to come up with that bright idea? Did you have help?
        Grow a brain..rent one…whatever it takes…seek help….

        AJ

      • DaveH

        Doc says — “Putting words in my mouth again”.
        Again? When was the previous time? When was this time, Doc?
        Did you not say — “I saw more fraud from the Republican side as they tried to deny the right to vote to minorities in many states”.
        And did you not post the link, Doc, in response to Paul asking you to prove it here?
        http://personalliberty.com/2013/01/04/congress-sticks-it-to-us-again/#comment-800200

        And did not the title of the linked article say “Voter ID laws: the Republican ruse to disenfranchise 5 million Americans”?

        Do you Liberal Progressives even know how to tell the truth, Doc?

      • DaveH

        Doc of what? Spin?

      • John

        Hey Doc, here you go; http://voterfraud2012.com
        here is another: http://www.capitalresearch.org/2012/05/vote-2012-election-the-advancement-project/
        here is another: http:www.policymic.com/articles/19206/flo
        There are many more. Some against Republicans and some against Democrats. I believe no U.S. election has been legitimate for more than 50 years. Kennedy lost the 1960 election to Nixon (Nixon was a “boy” for the Rockefellers). This is also proven. My point is there is no mandate for Obama and his policies as you indicate. He is just the latest shill working for the globalist bankers to sap the last dime of wealth from the American people before they burn the place down. I suspect at this point it is too late to wake anybody up. I’m not even trying.

    • G Schmidt

      Doc
      They voted Obama in for another term because he was not Romney (lousy excuse for a candidate). Obama has done nothing to earn another term but to disrupt our economic model for decades to come and grow government while creating large patches of population that depends almost entirely on government subsidies and handouts.

      In America,(and in life generally) have always been winners and losers. When you start alleviating the penalties for making poor decisions in life and start punishing and taxing those that work hard and create wealth you are tampering with the natural selection in Capitalism.
      Ever wonder why the economy in the old communist countries never took off and prosper even in countries with incredible wealth of resources?

      Stick around and find out…..

    • kkflash

      Doc Sarvis,
      This quote came from the Czech Republic . It was translated into English from an article in the Prague newspaper, Prager Zeitungon.

      “The danger to America is not Barack Obama, but a citizenry capable of entrusting a man like him with the Presidency. It will be far easier to limit and undo the follies of an Obama presidency than to restore the necessary common sense and good judgment to a depraved electorate willing to have such a man for their president. The problem is much deeper and far more serious than Mr. Obama, who is a mere symptom of what ails America .
      Blaming the prince of fools should not blind anyone to the vast confederacy of fools that made him their prince. The Republic can survive a Barack Obama, who is, after all, merely a fool. It is less likely to survive a multitude of fools, such as those who made him their President.”

      If they can figure this out in a country that has been under the thumb of socialism/communism, and has far less access to information about Obama than we do in the USA, why is it so hard for Americans to see him for the flaming socialist he is? If you believe Obama has put us on a positive economic track with his policies, you are simply one of the deluded that voted him back into office. Your thanks for that moronic vote will be higher taxes, more out of control government spending, and even bigger debts passed on to generations to come. (That is, if the whole economic sham doesn’t come crashing down before those generations get stuck with the bill.)

    • http://yahoo.com BillT

      Doc – you need to tell me where you get your news from. Maybe I should be watching or reading it. Maybe I would feel better about these scumbag crooks from BOTH parties.

    • teapartyordie

      you mean a “MOVE BACKWARD?”

    • beelp

      “mandate”, “vast majority”….typical Liberal b.s./hogwash/whatever term you like. Liberals are the slime that oozes from a festering wound, spreading to everything it touches. Liberalism means big, out-of-control governmant (like we now have) and NO desire to curtail the insane spending. How can anyone even think BO has any notion of reigning in the government? That’s insanity. The bigger the better is his regimes goal. Haven’t you low information idiots figured that out yet? Parasirteds are the only beneficeries.

    • Frank Kahn

      OKAY, PATHOS, WHAT DO YOU CONSIDER MOVEMENT TOWARDS COMPROMISE?

      THE COMPLETE CAVING OF THE OPPOSITION, TO ACCEPT THE INSANITY OF SPENDING MORE MONEY WE DONT HAVE?

      TO PAY MORE FOR THE PROSTITUTE IN CHIEF FOR HIS RAPING OUR CHILDREN?

      Bash the heads of the children of Sodom and Gomorrah on the rocks.

      Maybe Charlie Freedom will come and explain what that means.

      • Charlie

        Frank Kahn,,,
        Did God wipe out Sodom Gomorrah ? Who’s going to wipe out America? When is the book of Obadiah going to happen? Meanwhile…………………………..
        Praise King Jesus for Salvation and Healing… Acts 2:38 is salvation…

        Charlie Freedom

        • Frank Kahn

          I will choose to respond only to the last of the three questions at this time.

          “When is the book of Obadiah going to happen?”

          Technically the book already happened, so I will assume you are not asking that questions.

          When, is a question of time in most instances, and since no man may know the day or hour of his return, I cannot give you a date.

          You might be asking when will the Edomites be destroyed, in this case the answer was given as when the Lord returns. When the nation of Israel is once again returned to its rightful place.

          My question is, why are you asking such a nonsensical question.

      • Charlie

        Frank Kahn,,,
        None of My questions asked when is King Jesus Christ coming in the physical , even though it may happen at about the same time , King Jesus Christ is right here on planet earth today , in The power of The Holy Spirit , see Matthew 28:19 and John 14:16 , also see The Prayer that King Jesus Christ gave His people ,at Matthew 6:9—13,,,”Your Kingdom come. Your Will be done, on earth as it is in heaven”. … I and many others ,pray that Prayer every day , so , His Kingdom is right here, right now, for, those that pray and have “Faith” as little as a mustard seed…
        Does King Jesus Christ answer prayer ? YES,,,in “His will”…
        The Children of a Man named Jacob Israel , are, God’s Chosen People,,,NOT,,, just the Jews ,,, see 1 Chronicles 16:13, and Matthew 15:24 for that Lineage…
        The people in the so called state of Israel today are named by King Jesus Christ at Revelations 2:9 and 3:9… Meanwhile…….
        Praise King Jesus for Salvation and Healing… Acts 2:38 is salvation…

        Charlie Freedom

        • macgyver1948

          Charlie… you say “The people in the so called state of Israel today are named by King Jesus Christ at Revelations 2:9 and 3:9…”

          What does all that mean, the “so-called state of Israel”, since it really is named “Israel” legitimately. Also what does “are named by King Jesus Christ at Revelations 2:9 and 3:9…”? The Country was named after Abraham’s grandson Jacob whose name was changed to Israel. That is why Jews are the “Children of Israel” through Jacob’s 12 sons, where the 12 tribes of Israel get their name. Get your reality straight. Jesus did not have anything to do with those namings other than to quote Torah.

          Maybe for Christians Jesus was a king but not for any other religion, certainty not the Jews. Speak for yourself. First off Jesus was never a king of the Jews, or Messiah, so we should know you can’t mean for them.

          Again, speak for you and your beliefs but do not speak for others. You do not have either the ability or the right. Also, get your facts straight.

        • Frank Kahn

          And what Bible did you get those words to the Lords prayer from? YOUR is not in my bible. Also, if you take that set of words in context it starts “Our Father, who art in Heaven, hallowed by thy name, thy kingdom come, thy will be done, on earth as it is in Heaven.” So it speaks of our Father that is currently in Heaven. God is my father, Jesus is my savior.

          You want to interpret that “thy kingdom come” means it is already here? It sounds more like when it gets here. But it is actually a promise from us to him, we bring his kingdom here by abiding by his will.

          Since you are a stickler for the scriptures, please explain why it speaks of the RETURN of THE KING, if he is already here?

          I did not say that the Jews were Gods chosen people, they are a part of them but as you said all of the tribes of Israel are his chosen. The first covenant was with all of them. And was also broken by them.

          A question about the religious Jews, how can they remain strictly Jewish if they accept Jesus as savior? Would not that make him the Christ, and them Christians? Or do you simply maintain that the Jews are actually Edomites and the Torah is not the true Hebrew Bible?

          • macgyver1948

            Frank Kahn… All very good points you make to Charlie. As a Jew I believe, because I want to, that my blood lines, both sides, go all the way back to Abraham but I cannot prove it.

            Just something for thought. There are ancient stories we were told about God searching for a worthy people to ask them if they would accept all of His Laws, Torah. That is “all” and not not pick and choose which ones suite them and disregard the rest. It seems that God wrote Torah in Heaven long before He offered It to the Israelites.

            This story, if true, implies a few things to me. One, Torah is not meant for just one people but instead for any and all who are worthy, according to God, and are willing to accept them all. By the way, The 10 Commandants comes from Torah and is just a small but important part of It.

            Second, and I get this from a part of the Golden Calf story but that too is a story in itself. I mean this part of the Golden Calf story, in Torah, is suggesting that the Isrealites were not the first. That comes from something God said to Moses in His anger toward the people for their sins after the first set of 10 Commandments were destroyed by Moses and before the second set was carved. There almost wasn’t a second set.

            Third, if all this is so then I have wondered since I first heard these stories if the Israelites were not THE “Chosen” people but instead the people who chose and accepted Torah first. People tend to add to and elaborate and edit stories as they are past along, and more so when crossing language barriers, so I have wondered.

            Today Torah is very much alive and vital to most Jews who believe what It says to us. After all God wrote it so we feel that way. There is nothing that says to us Torah was fulfilled and to deny It at any time would be like denying or saying no to God for us. Some have renamed Torah as “The Five Books Of Moses” but I feel that is misleading. After all God wrote It and at most Moses only took ‘dictation’. Understand that this is how it is for us and most Jews I know wouldn’t say it is that way for anyone else who choose to believe otherwise. It is kind of a Golden Rule thing because if we do not accept and respect the beliefs of others then we deserve no respect and acceptance for our beliefs for us.

            You say “God is my father, Jesus is my savior”. I respect your ways for you too in this (also). God is my “Father” too but Jesus cannot be a savor or a Hebrew Messiah or Hebrew King to me according to Torah and history.

            Again Frank, thank you for the points you make to Charlie. I have a feeling he would disagree with just about everything you and I are saying but that is ok too, it is his right. I wouldn’t tell Charlie he is wrong for him. Those are excellent last paragraph questions you ask of Charlie. It could be interesting to see how and if he would respond to them. Shalom…

      • Charlie

        Frank Kahn, Macgyver1948,,,
        A couple of Religious Jews are saying that King Jesus Christ , a bloodline Jew, is wrong and they are right??? Your ignorance and gross disrespect for The Son of The Almighty God , King Jesus Christ , is very foolish to say the least… You should get a copy of the KJV, or NASB and read it as a History Book of God and His Creation, read it about 7 times, then study it for about 7 years,,,then you may understand that you have been brainwashed… Meanwhile………………
        Praise King Jesus for Salvation and Healing… Acts 2:38 is salvation…

        Charlie Freedom

        • Deerinwater

          Charlie says : “You should get a copy of the KJV, or NASB and read it as a History Book of God and His Creation, read it about 7 times, then study it for about 7 years,,,then you may understand that you have been brainwashed…”

          Sounds like replacing one program for another Charles. ~ A more desirable one we would only hope.

        • macgyver1948

          Oh Charlie… How am I disrespecting Jesus? Can you explain that? I do not believe he was anything but a man but I am not disrespecting him in my non belief of him, an entity that never was or will be God or lord to Jews. Are you that simple minded that you do not get that?

          You comment starts with “A couple of Religious Jews are saying that King Jesus Christ , a bloodline Jew, is wrong and they are right???”.

          “King Jesus Christ, a bloodline Jew, is wrong and they are right???”. First, what Jews, religious or not, are calling him “King Jesus Christ”, calling him a “king”? He never was a Hebrew king. Get that straight. No one with authority and the right to anoint him king did so because he did not prove anything, certainly he did not prove he was the Hebrew Messiah, very much by Hebrew Prophecies he did not prove anything. You are truly a fraud if you claim you know the Hebrew Bible and claim he could be the Hebrew Messiah or a Hebrew king. So why do you use it?

          Second, I do not know any Jew who would say Jesus was not in someone’s bloodline. Many of us believe Joseph was his biological father, that is if we gave it much thought at all. Joseph is maybe in King David’s bloodline but there was 500 years between David and Jesus so there is nothing that says Jesus, of all the males between Jesus and David, would be in line for the crown. More than anything else if you believe in the immaculate or divine conception then there is no Joseph, or anyone else, in line to connect Jesus with anyone in an inherited way – no males. And the Prophets who spoke of the Hebrew Messiah believed the Hebrew Messiah would be all mortal with two mortal biological parents. Either he is in someones bloodline through his biological father, mortally, or he is immaculately conceived, you cannot have it both ways as you attempt. And if he is “immaculately conceived” that alone eliminates Jesus at the point of conception as any kind of Hebrew Messiah based on Hebrew Prophesy. I believe I mentioned that to you before but regardless if you do not know that “you are truly a fraud if you claim you know the Hebrew Bible”. We Jews simply do not believe demi-gods ever existed, except made up in different cultures’ mythologies to help control the people, so there is your violations of the First two Commandants for us.

          Here again since you do not know them, with the 9th again because of your misguided “Satanic powers that be … “ super insult of God and Rabbis in general, including Jesus:

          First Commandant – Thou shall have no other gods before Me…

          Second Commandant – Thou shall not make unto thee any graven image…

          And just for you and those as you Charlie:
          Ninth Commandant – That shall not bear false witness against thy neighbor…

          Let me get something else straight. Jews would be disrespectful of God if we worshiped or accepted Jesus if we did in any ways you want us to. To show that I remember earlier today I included to you the first two of the 10 Commandants. They show where we would be defying God and disrespecting God if we accepted Jesus. You went on to insult me and Jews in general by saying “Macgyver1948,,, You are duped, deceived and deluded by the Satanic powers that be … “.

          Look you moron and disrespectful SOB, those you refer to are rabbis and Hebrew teachers who are applying Hebrew teachings of Torah since God gave it to Moses and past it on to all future generations. Jesus as a rabbi taught what we are saying of Torah. We learned if from God in a strong way so when you say we are “duped, deceived and deluded by the Satanic powers that be … “ you are including God and the Rabbi Jesus in that assault of yours – including them too in with (your words) “the Satanic powers that be … “. So who really is being disrespectful you damned A*S*S?

          You asked for it with your bigotries and your “only what I am saying is right for all and you have to be wrong if you refuse to agree with me” BS attitude and your denial of and lack of respect for other religions. You are so much not American when you deny others their “Freedom Of Religion” Constitutional right as you do so you are more than just a religious bigot.. And because of schmucks like you I all the time more so believe we need to add “Separation Of Church And State” to the Constitution. Believe as you want for you, I always will say it is your right for you. But when you cancel out God given and Constitutional rights as you do we have a fight going. It is funny, you are the kind who would persecute Rabbi Jesus for his teachings of Torah. What a damn fraud you are. I also think you are an insult to Christianity as well. You asked for it you dim witted S*C*H*M*U*C*K with your programmed bigotries.

          Charlie “Freedom” , Yeah right, what a joke that is. LOL

        • Frank Kahn

          I liked the responses from the other two but I need to straighten you out on one thing. I am not a religious Jew, I am a bloodline Jew, there is a difference. I would also point out that I have never, in any of my posts, disrespected Jesus, nor have I claimed that he was wrong. This is your words not mine. I am sorry to hear that it took you 7 years and reading the Bible 7 times to learn what is in it. I have been studying different religions for much more than 7 years. I can tell you where many of the different denominations of Christianity are terribly wrong in their teachings. I am not saying that the Bible they use is wrong, just that they dont follow what is written. I have also pointed out where you dont follow the words given by God and Jesus in the Bible.

      • Charlie

        Frank, Mac,,,
        Thanks for all your asinine comments ,backed up with NO in contexts “Scripture” from any “True” Christian Bible ,,, Geneva , KJV, NASB or others that are over a thousand years old or older… Meanwhile ……………….
        Praise King Jesus for Salvation and Healing… Acts 2:38 is salvation…

        Charlie Freedom

        • macgyver1948

          Hay Charles Freedom-less… Why would I or Frank offer you “contexts “Scripture” from any “True” Christian Bible ,,, Geneva , KJV, NASB or others that are over a thousand years old or older… “ when we do not believe in your Bibles? Your Bibles are based on the premise that Jesus is “the” Savior and God’s choice for Hebrew Messiah and we do not believe he is. They aren’t our Bibles, they are yours. How does what you say make sense to you? You need to use what we would accept to be convincing of anything and I have to you this before. Your Bibles are for you and not for us. When will you decide to make sense? Sorry Charlie, but there is no intelligence or logic in your statements or your approach. You are a joke Charlie boy and you will remain a inane joke until you learn how to deal with people logically and with respect, something you have none of. You are an embarrassment to Christianity and yourself. But thanks for this laugh too… LOL…

      • Charlie

        Mac, Frank,,
        Psalm 14 says you both are fools… But,,, when Obadiah happens , The Almighty God will prove His words… Meanwhile …………………
        Praise King Jesus for Salvation and Healing… Acts 2:38 is salvation…

        Charlie Freedom

        • Frank Kahn

          Really? You actually found our names in the Bible, WOW I feel so honored. I wish my Bible said that.

          • macgyver1948

            Frank…LOL. that is what I said, that Charlie boy found our names in Psalm 14 .. I wonder if Charlie boy is related to the little Movie character Chuckie. LOL

        • macgyver1948

          Frank… It seems that Charlie Freedom-Less here is saying we are mentioned in Psalm 14.

          Charlie boy, you continue to show you do not understand the Hebrew Bible so why do you continue to use it? No where do I or Frank say there is no God, you just misuse to prove your insanity of misuse. We are not in any way denying God, Torah, The new Testament for you. We are only denying you and sanity for you.

          Psalms Chapter 14 תְּהִלִּים

          1 For the Leader. [A Psalm] of David. {N}
          The fool hath said in his heart: ‘There is no God’; {N}
          they have dealt corruptly, they have done abominably; there is none that doeth good.

          2 The LORD looked forth from heaven upon the children of men, {N}
          to see if there were any man of understanding, that did seek after God.

          3 They are all corrupt, they are together become impure; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

          4 ‘Shall not all the workers of iniquity know it, who eat up My people as they eat bread, and call not upon the LORD?’

          5 There are they in great fear; for God is with the righteous generation.

          6 Ye would put to shame the counsel of the poor, but the LORD is his refuge.

          7 Oh that the salvation of Israel {N}
          were come out of Zion! When the LORD turneth the captivity of His people, let Jacob rejoice, let Israel be glad. {P}

          By the way Charlie boy. Where is the Book of Acts in the Hebrew Bible? I cannot seem to find it there. AGAIN, please remember we Jews do not believe what is in the New Testament, that is for Christians and not us just like the Karon is for Muslims and not you. Why don’t you understand that very simple concept?

          From http://www.gotquestions.org/Book-of-Acts.html
          Author: The Book of Acts does not specifically identify its author. From Luke 1:1-4 andActs 1:1-3, it is clear that the same author wrote both Luke and Acts. The tradition from the earliest days of the church has been that Luke, a companion of the apostle Paul, wrote both Luke and Acts (Colossians 4:14; 2 Timothy 4:11).

          Date of Writing: The Book of Acts was likely written between 61-64 A.D.

          Purpose of Writing: The Book of Acts was written to provide a history of the early church. The emphasis of the book is the importance of the day of Pentecost and being empowered to be effective witnesses for Jesus Christ. Acts records the apostles being Christ’s witnesses in Jerusalem, Judea, Samaria, and to the rest of the surrounding world. The book sheds light on the gift of the Holy Spirit, who empowers, guides, teaches, and serves as our Counselor. Reading the book of Acts, we are enlightened and encouraged by the many miracles that were being performed during this time by the disciples Peter, John, and Paul. The book of Acts emphasizes the importance of obedience to God’s Word and the transformation that occurs as a result of knowing Christ. There are also many references to those that rejected the truth that the disciples preached about the Lord Jesus Christ. The lust for power, greed, and many other vices of the devil are evidenced in the book of Acts.

    • Mike in MI

      Doc Sarvis -
      No Doc, constipation is not promoting a good movement. All it does is continue the progressive and ongoing intoxification within the economic body.

    • nickkin

      Where in the hell is the compromise, Doc ? They just got more credits cards with no limits and with no accountability. As voters, we don’t even see the statements. Congress and the obo-social are worse than shoppers on black friday but with no real deals or coupons.

    • gunner

      President Obama’s budget proposal was voted down in the senate last year 98-0. Where is the mandate to proceed full speed ahead in that?

    • Motov

      OhBozo does NOT have a clue how to save this nation. We must stop the overspending ASAP! Our OVER BLOATED government needs to shrink, and fast! There are too many federal “employees” performing unnecessary functions of Government, and in many cases have impeded our ability to produce in the private sector and effectively destroyed their tax base by acting like morons. Case in point, Gibson Guitars, work was halted over their materials used in their product,. Small organic farmers harassed by government agencies for their produce, and the list goes on! In short as someone stated here they are killing their own source of income. Government is nothing but a huge parasite.
      And they are actively killing the host (the taxpayers)

  • Warrior

    Let’s see now. If I wanted to cut spending, I may choose to go line by line through the budget and identify all the unecessary items. Hey harry, send one of those budgets over to me quick. What’s that? You haven’t gotten around to producing one? Well when you do, make sure I get a copy.

    • momo

      You might be in for a long wait.

    • Jess

      That’s how normal people make up a budget. Start with your known income, then create a list of known expenses. However the federal budget is thousands of pages and written in such a way that no one understands it. If the American people could see and understand the budget they could easily figure out what to cut. I’m sure there are lots of pork programs like studying the mating habits of frogs that could be cut and giving money away to nations like Pakistan that hate us but love the billions of dollars we give them.

      The American people agree that we need to cut spending. We should demand Congress go through the budget line by line, item by item and find things to cut. There are 435 members in the house, if the divide it up it won’t be so bad.

      Of course the first thing that needs cut is the salary of Congress. Cut them back to about $74,000 a year. That’s just slightly above the national average. Make them pay for health insurance just as every other working person does. Make them participate in Social Security. Take away their perks and cut their staff. Let’s make our members of Congress actually work for living instead of campaigning for a living. They give the work to their staff to do. All the really do is show up and vote. And they only work 3 days a week.

      The founding fathers envisioned a part time congress, not a full time, life time career congress like we have now.

      • http://yahoo.com BillT

        I would make it very easy to cut. Every department gets a 15% or 25% cut depending on their current budget. If the department head says it can’t be done – fire them. They may say that services will not be as good or will be cut, but right now, they’re not worth a crap anyway.

      • Jim C.

        I couldn’t agree more!!! In the old days members of congress and the senate were business men or worked at something! Then went to Washington to deal with the issues and vote. Now their goal is to make it there and stay, while they line their pockets with money from lobbyist!! Their all out of touch with the real America that we all live in, both parties!!!! I would like to see any of them live in the real world!! Cutting the budget for food trying to manage with the outrages prices and the shrinking wages being offered!!!! I would be a sight to see!

      • http://gravatar.com/cbgard Carlucci

        I think the easiest solution is to get rid of the fed guv entirely, or pare it down 90%, give all powers back to state governments and their citizens, and let the chips fall where they may. Do we really need those morons in D.C.? They have proven time and time again that they are either totally inept, or worse, the biggest thieves on the planet.

        American can be great again. Those jerks in the federal mafia have got to get out of the way….

  • Jim B

    The United States government plutocracy has created a bureaucracy beyond anything imaginable just a few short years ago. Make no mistake, the government for the people, by the people is now a corrupted, inept criminal organization whose primary function is to usurp the earned income from the citizens of this once great nation. This lawless organization, who we call government, is the worst of the worst, more ruthless than any known mafia or terrorist organization, more corrupt than any Ponzi schemer could have ever devise, and the largest extortionist organization ever to exist, or be imagined on the planet. This is the state we now live in, this from a country that had no equal just a few short years ago, whose liberties and freedoms where the envy of all the world. And now, we rank 17th in the world’s freest nations. In summary, we have 16.5 Trillion dollars in US debt, which has run out, the government, in the first of the fiscal year is operating on pure credit i.e. stolen from worker pensions to pay for the socialist bureaucracy created by themselves, for which no one benefits. We are no longer the land of opportunity, the land of the free, we have allowed that title to be expunged from our history and we will suffer dearly for that grave misstep in our travels. God help us, for it will take a divine intervention to stop the tyranny that has bestowed itself upon us.

    • kenwa d’arc

      so, are you arguing against windmills too?

      • kenwa d’arc

        we only have so long before petroleum depletes, all energy sources must be invented and the safe energy sources promoted…

      • Capitalist at Birth.

        Are you a complete idiot. Who ever mentioned wind mills. How can you drive an automobile with a wind mill on top of it? Just a little sarcasm. I will debate the stupidity of wind mills with you if you are knowledgeable in the slightest bit on the subject. Care to test your knowledge.? On another subject, do you know the life expectancy of the battery and electric motor that they are currently using in and all electric vehicle? It is around 100,000 miles. Do you know what the average cost is to replace the battery and electric motor is? Over $ 8,000. Do you know what the cost is per mile for the electricity is to operate one of these vehicles. It depends on how the electricity is produced. There are very few published studies on the subject. The best estimates places it at 2 and 1/2 times the cost of a gasoline powered engine (not hybrid) with gasoline at $ 4.00 a gallon. Do you recall that Steven Chu (the current person in charge of energy policy) said in regards to this subject. He would like to see the price of gasoline over $ 6.00 a gallon. Any idea why? Furthermore, it has been proven scientifically that oil is not finite. I know this comes as a great disappointment to someone who wants a Totalitarian Fascist Government. Sorry. Just the facts.

      • Bill

        Kenwa,
        You need to show your protest by never boarding an airplane unless it is powered by alternative energy. Maybe you can find a glider to travel on

      • Bill

        CAB
        Alternative energy is 30 years away from being efficient and it can never meet all of our energy needs. Diesel is a better option than these battery operated hybrids that are costly to replace, an environmental nightmare to dispose of and a major health hazard from all of the EMF’s they create

        We currently manufacture a diesel car in the united states that gets over 70 mpg. But it is only sold in Europe. The socialist sponsered global warming movement is against it because their motivation is to kill capitalism not make things more efficient

      • http://donthaveone Beberoni

        Wind energy only works, if the wind blows. I know where I live, I sure wouldnt want to trust whether my water pipes are going to freeze and bust if the the wind doesnt blow that day to produce energy to heat with. Its just not reliable, nor is solar. And the cost of those things, who as a normal person could afford them? We call can afford a furnace and air conditioner, well, those of us that care to work for a living. But I sure couldnt afford a million dollar windmill in my yard, that will only work if the wind blows. And I sure couldnt afford the repairman and parts when it breaks down. It is not the answer to burning fuel. I wish it was, but it isnt, not even close.

      • http://yahoo.com BillT

        Windmills, who needs them. We have enough unemloyed in every city. Set up a huge building with stationary bicycles that the unemployed can peddel and produce energy into the grid. It’ll also reduce the obesity epedemic. As a side note, give a stipend to the tweekers – they can peddel faster.

      • Steve E

        kenwa d’arc, Why are you worried about energy depletion? We are going to run out of fiat money first. Don’t pay attention to the man behind the curtain.

      • Mike in MI

        Beberoni – Even if it does blow it isn’t trustworthy.
        This last fall my wife and I were driving through a BIG wind mill farm in the middle of the lower peninsula. The wind was moving 20 – 25 mph and she noticed many of them were not turning. Some were; some weren’t. I started counting.
        Of about 73 propellers counted, only 38 were even facing the wind direction and going around – and at varying speeds. That led me to wonder if some of the rotating towers were generating, while others were just turning without doing anything except whumping the neighbors’ ears.
        Why, if Obama wants this sort of clap-trap, can’t he promote the business and fund it himself? He’s good at getting money for less than worthless causes.

    • Jim C.

      You are so right. Its outrageous!! Our government run things like a mafia crime family runs their illegal business!!! We use to be a nation blessed by God because we included God!! That why we were the super power of super powers. But as our corrupt government drifts from God he slowly strips his blessings. They have even taken “in God we trust” off the new one dollar coin! God will take care of his own though. It will be a rough ride and uncomfortable but the true believers that refuse to go the ways of the world (the ways of satan) will come out all right in the end. I truly believe that! And for the evil people, let them have a good trip!! To hell.

      • Mike in MI

        Jim C. -
        well, what do you expect? Who do you think is the power behind the “Chicago Way” of doing government?
        Ergo, who is in charge now? One form of liberalism looking out for another.
        Also, what sorts of anything do you think we can expect? Peace and goodness???

    • Capitalist at Birth

      Bill, What alternative energy sources will be viable in 30 years? Wind turbines kill bats and birds at an alarming rate, which by the way, eat insects that spread diseases like malaria. They, like golf courses and burial sites, are a complete waste of real estate. They also disturb wild life habitat, forcing wild life away from the vibrations in the ground that they create up to a 10 mile radius. This is documented fact, not hypothetical. Solar? I don’t think the chemicals necessary to make long lasting solar panels has been created yet.a It is only feasible in areas where the sun shines enough (which is only about 10-20% of the U.S, geography. I think your 30 year estimate is too optimistic. Good Luck with that thought. Diesel fuel is a bi-product of producing gasoline. It is my understanding that the current cost of producing diesel fuel synthetically or through bio diesel costs without profit margin are actually over $ 6.00 a gallon. diesel also is not a clean burning fuel. Gasoline will be powering automobiles for at least the next 50 years if not longer. Unless they decide to invest in Natural Gas storage and filling stations across the country. Which is maybe within that 30 year window. It is still a carbon based fuel, and not an alternative source of energy. It has been used for over 100 years. Government interference in the market place is disruptive and counter productive no matter how good the intentions are. Where did you study economics? No where, would be my guess. True freedom results from economic liberty and only then does it exist. Any restriction or control is a destruction of that freedom.

  • roger gunderson

    Americans are ignorant sheep.

    • Capitalist at Birth.

      Unfortunately they are.

      • Jim C.

        Not all. The one who speak out get demonized or slandered. I agree though, most are.

    • Steve E

      And their reward for being ignorant sheep will be coming done the road soon.

  • Juan Reynoso

    LATINOS FOR HONEST GOVERNMENT
    TRUST IS BASE ON TRUTH – FREEDOM IS BASE ON TRUST
    http://www.gopetition.com/

    Fellow Americans, Washington politicians are getting rich by selling out to the invisible government; they all work for the multinational corporations, financial system (Big multinational Bankers), the pharmaceutical corporations and the especial interest organizations. The average citizens of this United States have not representatives in Washington and they are being control by this army of corrupt puppets that only care about themselves and getting rich at the expenses of the American people.
    Wake up American. We must depose this army of corrupt tyrants by any means, tyrannicide if need be before they destroy us and our country. Do not let the corrupt news media brainwash you, do your own research. The truth will set us free; it will enlighten, inspire, awaken and unite us. Armed with the truth united we stand, for our freedom, health, economic welfare and happiness for our generation and the future of our country.

    http://theeconomiccollapseblog.com/archives/12-facts-that-will-blow-your-mind-federal-employees-and-members-of-congress-are-getting-rich-while-those-of-us-who-pay-their-salaries-suffer

    http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics/2011/12/as-americans-get-poorer-members-of-congress-get-richer/

    http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-18560_162-57323527/congress-trading-stock-on-inside-information/

    http://www.republicreport.org/2012/make-it-rain-revolving-door/

    http://www.theamericanconservative.com/articles/revolt-of-the-rich/

    http://www.i4u.com/2012/12/bill-moyers/washingtons-corruption-bill-hazardous-health-our-moyers

    http://www.judicialwatch.org/press-room/press-releases/judicial-watch-announces-list-of-washingtons-ten-most-wanted-corrupt-politicians-for-2012/

    Posted by Juan Reynoso – The truth-not BS – Americans are us.

    • DaveH

      Good post, Juan. That will put the Boiler Room into a frenzy.

    • Nadzieja Batki

      Another phony collectivist group for honest government.

  • vietnamvet1971

    BUT, “The Little Dictator” after all his Big promises to raise Taxes on all those Ole Mean Rich people has finally got an extra $65 Billion a year to Spend & Waste on his pet projects and pay back to his Special Interest Buddies. The poor common American Tax payer should feel good knowing they are bearing the burden & knowing the “king” is satisfied and Happy that he could Ram/Cram his Crap on us once more. Royalty has its benefits.

    • JC

      Exactly right…65 billion “new” tax dollars to be taken from an identifiable group that has done a little better than most. Seems to me that this sort of action will only serve to remove the motivation to do better. Literally a death knell for the American dream of exceptionalism.
      Why bother to work harder when you will only be singled out and punished for it?

      Not to mention that this new tax revenue (proceeds of extortion) will be merely a fart in the wind in trying to pay down a 1,089 billion debt that doesn’t even include promised spending…
      That’s just where we are “today”.

      It’s a band-aid on a gaping wound.

      • Paul Wells

        Gee. if only that $65 billion could begin to offset the 300 billion of new spending that is in the bill. GET THIS, PEOPLE: Obama and Reid and their cast of criminals cares not one bit about reining in spending, and will drive the Cadillac off the cliff. And you leftists are right there egging them on to spend faster. Delusional, at best!

      • kkflash

        Everyone please take note that the Congressional Budget Office estimates this latest Democrat supported bill will ADD $4 trillion to the deficit over the next 10 years. W T F are they trying to accomplish?

      • DaveH

        $4 Trillion to the Debt over the next 10 years.
        Although with hyperinflation looming, it may actually become adding $4 Trillion to the Deficit in 10 years.

    • momo

      Considering the feds are spending about 10 billion a day, that 65 billion won’t even cover a week!

      • Bill

        Hi momo
        You are right. They have been spending 300 billion per month and bringing in 180 billion per month. And that was last year. The real cure is to reduce spending but their actions have just shown us otherwise by offering just $1 spending cuts for every $45 dollars taxed.

        It just amazes me how stupid people are to think that by “taxing the rich”, we will pay off the debt.

        They are promoting poverty over prosperity. And they want to take away our right to defend ourselves against all of the new criinals they are creating through their economic policies.

        It makes you wonder: are they really that stupid or do they have an alternative agenda

      • DaveH

        It depends on who you’re talking about, Bill.
        The Leaders are feathering their nests and increasing their Power. So they will come out on top no matter what happens to our economy.
        The Followers, on the other hand, are indeed “stupid”. They will be first in line to suffer when our economy collapses.

    • http://donthaveone Beberoni

      And there are those who actually think GM and Chrysler paid back all the billions he gave them too. What a crock.

      • JC

        No they did not pay it back. What happened was the that stock in these companies is now mostly in the hands of the government, which has a majority share. That is also why I will never again but anything from either Government Motors or Dodge.
        In fact when GM took the bail out, I traded a 1 year old Silverado in for an F-150.
        I’m on my fourth F-150 since then.

      • Bill

        JC,
        Yes, I will not buy any more vehicles from Gm or Chysler. Toyota makes better products and they are built in the US. Probably because they are non union

      • Capitalist at Birth

        Bill, Are you sure Toyota is non-union. I have relatives that worked in a Nissan plant, that they said had a union. I will buy Ford, Lincoln, Honda, Toyota, Nissan, or just about any make other than G.M., Chrysler, or Fiat.

  • http://donthaveone Beberoni

    Its a fact. I come into work, and our accountant tells me that they have to have an IT guy comeout and straighten up our accounting system, because he was trying to load in the new higher federal income tax, and the system didnt like it and locked up. So he confirmed to me, that yes, we all will be paying higher federal withholding tax this year. And come one now, we all know, that the top 1% Obama was labeling as his target, will still keep their tax shelters and have their income in banks overseas and such, and us, the middle class working man, will be the ones paying more taxes. Makes me ashamed that there are that many stupid people walking the streets of America, that after the 4 worst years a President has ever had in office in the history of this country, that they would decide to give him 4 more years. For the first time in her life, Moochelle Obama was proud to be an American. Well, for the first time in my life, I am embarrassed to be an American, as the world just sits and laughs at how stupid we really are. What a shame.

    • Capitalist at Birth.

      There are too many ignorant people in this country that are allowed to vote. I think it is too late to change their bad habits, and it, unfortunately will lead to insurrection. Has anyone noticed the increase in the cost of .223 ammunition since all the talk about gun control?

      • John

        Prepare my brother. The only redemption is through fire.

      • kkflash

        (Post repeated from above.)
        This quote came from the Czech Republic . It was translated into English from an article in the Prague newspaper, Prager Zeitungon.

        “The danger to America is not Barack Obama, but a citizenry capable of entrusting a man like him with the Presidency. It will be far easier to limit and undo the follies of an Obama presidency than to restore the necessary common sense and good judgment to a depraved electorate willing to have such a man for their president. The problem is much deeper and far more serious than Mr. Obama, who is a mere symptom of what ails America .
        Blaming the prince of fools should not blind anyone to the vast confederacy of fools that made him their prince. The Republic can survive a Barack Obama, who is, after all, merely a fool. It is less likely to survive a multitude of fools, such as those who made him their President.”

        If they can figure this out in a country that has been under the thumb of socialism/communism, and has far less access to information about Obama than we do in the USA, why is it so hard for Americans to see him for the flaming socialist he is? If you believe Obama has put us on a positive economic track with his policies, you are simply one of the deluded that voted him back into office. Your thanks for that moronic vote will be higher taxes, more out of control government spending, and even bigger debts passed on to generations to come. (That is, if the whole economic sham doesn’t come crashing down before those generations get stuck with the bill.)

      • Karolyn

        And who gets to decide who is ignorant???????

      • Steve E

        Karolyn, good question. I don’t think anyone or any one person has to decide who is ignorant. When the U.S. economy and fiat money system collapses (and it will), the ignorant will have to become wise or perish. So I suppose the answer to you question is that providence will decide who is ignorant in the end. When that does happen, the wise people will rejoice.

    • DaveH

      The Middle Class always pays for the increased Government revenues, whether directly through increased taxes, or indirectly through increased consumer prices and/or fewer jobs.

      • Bill

        DaveH,
        It has always been that way and always will be. Anything else you hear is just smoke and mirrors to mask the truth

    • Prougenits Singh

      Its not that there are or are not stupid people walking around, its that George Soros (you know the billionaire Obama Billionaire Buddy who ownes the company in Spain that ownes the company in the USA that “tallies” the votes – yeah that guy) helped the Democrats fraudulently rig the “election” so Obama would win. How else do you explain 142% of registered voters in ST Lucie county in Florida voting on election day… Its all part of the plan… Mark my words: THIS YEAR MAY BE THE WORST YEAR FOR AMERIKA SINCE BECOMING A NATION!

      • JC

        Another aspect of America’s problems for sure.

  • Karolyn

    Taxes going up for “the vast majority of Americans?” I thought only the payroll taxes were going up, and that was not up for debate; and that income tax is only going up for those who make $400,000 and up, certainly not the “vast majority.”

    • Capitalist at Birth.

      What gives you or anyone else the right to take more money (as a percentage of their total earnings) than you are willing to contribute of yours? Are you God?

      • Karolyn

        cab – As a matter of fact, yes, we are all God.

      • S.C.Murf

        Karolyn satan has you right where he wants. You are doing more to further his cause than standing up for the true living God. satan doesn’t care if you believe in him or not, if he can get you to believe that there is no God then he has won, and you believing that we are gods ourselves is insane. If you are a god Karolyn then on your death bed heal yourself, get up and move on. I will pray to the only living God for your soul K.

        up the hill
        airborne

      • Nadzieja Batki

        Karolyn, no we are not Gods.

      • Karolyn

        We are all part of the Universal Intelligence called “God”. If we all worked together, WOW! We could indeed move mountains. Yes, I do believe in “God”, and I do not believe in “Satan.”

      • Karolyn

        Nadzieja – I did not say that we are all gods. However it does say that in the Bible.

      • deerinwater

        “The term “image of God” occurs three times in the Bible. In Genesis 1:26-27 and 9:6, we find out that man is created in the image of God. In 2 Cor. 4:4 we see the phrase used in reference to Jesus who is the “image of God.” There is no exact understanding of what the phrase means, but we can generalize. It would seem that the first two verses refer to God’s character and attributes that are reflected in people. The term cannot be a reference to a physical appearance of God since Jesus says in John 4:24 that God is Spirit, and in Luke 24:39 Spirit does not have flesh and bones. Therefore, we can conclude that the image of God deals with humanity’s reflection of God in such things as compassion, rationality, love, hatred, fellowship, etc. God exhibits all of these characteristics, as do people.”

        I feel this interpretation is misleading as the church will stop at nothing to humanize God.

        God is spirit man is spirit manifested in human form.

        • macgyver1948

          deerinwater… You remind us here with “The term “image of God” occurs three times in the Bible. In Genesis 1:26-27 and 9:6, we find out that man is created in the image of God. In 2 Cor. 4:4 we see the phrase used in reference to Jesus who is the “image of God” .

          I too often have wondered because it so often comes up in one way or another. One of my former step-sons said to me that Jesus looks like God. I have to smile and wonder what that means because God is totally spiritual in form, not at all physical, so how can any of us look like God?

          What makes sense to me, and how I can stop wondering, is I see God, being with so many superior qualities and abilities, as a super engineer, among other things. As with human engineers God first has an image in His mind and then creates that image. We no more look like God that we look like a tree or an ant but those too were an image in God’s mind before they were created. Actually Jesus being a person born to a mortal woman looked like the people of that area, Arabic-ish. There are historical references that say Jesus was a small man, around 5 foot 1 or so, Roman writings. I often smile when I see paintings of Jesus showing him looking like a tall white western European man but then I realize that too is from the minds image of the painter.

          This is just my opinion and it is another slant on any phrase, biblical or otherwise, saying Man was created in God’s image”. God is so way above us in so many ways it is funny to see, as you say and I agree, “I feel this interpretation is misleading as the church will stop at nothing to humanize God”. If God wasn’t so very above us how could the Universe, or us for that matter, be here? Our abilities to create are so limited compared to those of God, the ultimate engineer.

          • Deerinwater

            LOL! I guess one of my favorite painting of Jesus is when he is standing up in a small fishing boat packed with 12 disciple in a raging storm. His boat-mates scares half out of their wits. The sea is slapping, looks of apprehension, eyes bulging and there stands Jesus, white European, striking beard in full flowing robbed gala of crimson and blue, calm as a clam, one hand to his breast and the other reaching out to a dove.

            Nobody in their right mind would get in a small boat and take to sea in that “get-up”. Imagining and illusion plays a big part in mind control. The whole picture is all wrong.

            Once implanted, ~ illusions stick in peoples minds forever. Where they real or false does not matter.

          • macgyver1948

            Deerinwater… I some time wonder about the fears those disciples had if they believed Jesus really was the Son Of God. They were frightened away when Jesus was arrested because they really didn’t believe in that, just ran for safety. They would have stayed with Jesus the entire time of his arrest, trial and crucification if they had that belief. Only the two Mary’s stuck around and I wonder why the younger one did if she was only a prostitute and not what many say she was. To each his own I guess.

            Yes, implanted illusions can stay with people if they want them to.

          • Deerinwater

            I don’t believe that you have to “want it” , illusion real or imaginary, true or false can be burned into the memory like a snapshot ~ I have many ~ most very warm and comforting and some horrible.

            The reason Jesus was crucified was due largely to his popularity among certain people. Who there people were (their demographics) has never been well understood by me. While it’s does seem clear, a large cross section of the population was pay attention to Jesus, his movements and what he was teaching. The Tax master, the baker, the fisherman, the wealthy and the poor.

            It was frizzed mobs that the believers feared in Jerusalem that day and the many days that followed. lies was being spread, ~ These people felt helpless and sicked by the events as they unfolded. Standing against this mob (of contrived public opinion) would have got you dead.

            The church did not appreciated the completion, ~ especially by a man coming out of no where. There was a pecking order to your position in the church. Jesus was seen as not paying his dues with the shearing of the flock. JC was fast tracking and gaining popularity by the day.

            The people of the day were very bright but working off of a primitive pretext. Not all but many Men was screwing their daughters and eating their enemy as they worshiped idols.

            You could find yourself in a bad neighborhood very easily back then , just like you can today.

            As I see it, the church was an opiate of the masses, aiding government to keeping things down to a roar, brokering out penitence and forgiveness for a small fee as they enjoyed position and a life of a scribe without sweat.

            The church;
            “I’ll pray for your sins but quit you screwing your daughter or it’ll cost you more next time or you can go to hell, your choice”

          • macgyver1948

            Deerinwater… Actually during his preaching days in Israel Jesus had a pretty small following. Most Jews saw he was not the Hebrew Messiah and there were plenty of rabbis to go around. There were also many false Messiahs. During that Passover Seder, what Christians later renamed “The Last Supper”, Jesus told those present this could be his last supper with them because he knew he was going to be arrested for breaking Roman Law. He was arrested, if I remember correctly 3 or so days later, because of his heresy as the Romans saw it. Jesus was publicly teaching there is no one or anything higher or more important than God and The Roman Emperor couldn’t take that law breaking. There were other small reasons but that was mainly it.

            We seem to see the historical accounts a bit differently. From my readings Jesus was a respected Rabbi among the Jewish hierarchy although he was considered a little radical in some of his methods. I do not understand the jealously as described in the New Testament, especially considering his small following. As I have said I do not believe in the New Testament and history is generally how the author wants future generations to believe, but often fairly accurate in its main scope, so who really knows now.

            You say “The people of the day were very bright but working off of a primitive pretext. Not all but many Men was screwing their daughters and eating their enemy as they worshiped idols”. This could be said of the Romans and other cultures but not with most of the Jews. There was Torah holding them together then as it has been since long before Jesus and on to today but there were pitfalls, non adherences to God’s Laws, which hurt Jews throughout History at times.

            What church in Jesus’ day are you referring to? In the Roman Empire the Religion Law was Paganism. In Israel the Romans allowed the Second Hebrew Temple to be built, until they destroyed it in the year 70AD (about 37 years after Jesus was crucified but that seems to be a fulfillment of a Danial Prophesy), but there weren’t many other kinds of churches in those days.

            The first sanctioned Christian Church was The Catholic Church and that didn’t come about unto a few hundred years after Jesus. The first all together Christian Bible, The Catholic Bible, was put together by the Emperor Constantine and his people in the second half of the third century so whatever churches there were back then, since Jesus’ time, were tiny little things run by a single independent minister. Many of them did not have buildings of any kind, just someones house or barn now and then.

            I wont go into what history says was how that first sanctioned church came about here but it was the beginning of many other Christian faiths many centuries later, as in break offs or rebellions of the Catholic Church. For example, Martin Luther, the first leader of the Lutheran Church, and for whom the Church was named, was a Roman Catholic Priest who rebelled against the Catholic Church. They were Protestants after that rebellion but they still loved the Catholic Bible and so did many other Protestants for centuries until they wanted their own Bible(s). The King James Version was after several other additions of those Protestant Bibles during King James’ reign, all based on the Catholic Bible, but I bet most who follow the KJV would not want to know the truth about King James and why his followers and ministers wanted a Bible in their king’s name. It is a funny world.

            You go on to say “As I see it, the church was an opiate of the masses, aiding government to keeping things down to a roar…”. Actually until Governments and law evolved in Europe and got strong enough The Church was the main law. Not only for this reason but it took the maturing of law and government to end the persecution of those who claimed the Earth was not flat and was not the center of the Universe. Many scientists were put in prison and even exacted for their research. If you contradict the Church you go to hell at their hand.

            This is why we need to keep Church influence totally out of Government today because the Churches with the most influences would harm those who are not of their church, harm their religious FREEDOMS. The Founders knew this and talked about “Separation Of Church And State” but in their believing that should be left to the States it was left out of The Constitution, it should be in along with “Freedom Of Religion”. I feel, considering how things are going since the Founders time, and very much so today, The Founders made a mistake not including “Separation Of Church And State” in the Constitution. History is a big thing religious and political extremists do not want us to remember and this is a big deal that goes back to before the Roman Empire. My paraphrasing “If we ignore history we can make the same mistakes but in our favor this time”. Sad and funny.

            Your quote at the end, and I figure you paraphrased it (The church;
            “I’ll pray for your sins but quit you screwing your daughter or it’ll cost you more next time or you can go to hell, your choice” ). Not allowing the world to know the truth when wrong is done within the churches is something the churches want to protect, their reputations, at everyone’s expense, especially the victims. All those centuries where church leaders raped children and the churches covered it up. The hypocrisy sticks. Some things should never be allowed to be “internal only” and that takes good law from good government.

          • Deerinwater

            A thoughtful post. My thanks. ~ I failed to qualify but I was attempting to address the population of Judea. I don’t know how many Romans was in the area at that time. It hard to understand the demographic but I would expected it mixed. I would expect Jerusalem not actually that homogeneous from it history.

            During its long history, Jerusalem has been destroyed twice, besieged 23 times, attacked 52 times, and captured and recaptured 44 times.[7] The oldest part of the city was settled in the 4th millennium BCE.[1] In 1538, walls were built around Jerusalem under Suleiman the Magnificent. Today those walls define the Old City, which has been traditionally divided into four quarters—known since the early 19th century as the Armenian, Christian, Jewish, and Muslim Quarters.[8] The Old City became a World Heritage site in 1981, and is on the List of World Heritage in Danger.[9] Modern Jerusalem has grown far beyond its boundaries.
            Jerusalem has been the holiest city in Jewish tradition since, according to the Hebrew Bible, King David of Israel first established it as the capital of the united Kingdom of Israel in c. 1000 BCE, and his son, King Solomon, commissioned the building of the First Temple in the city.[10] In Christian tradition, Jerusalem has been a holy city since, according to the New Testament, Jesus was crucified there, possibly in c. 33.

            This is not exactly the City of Brotherly Love, as Holy as it may be.

            How did the Locals see the trial and execution if Jesus. ~ ? My guess it varied, some seeing it at great fun, others heartbroken.

            I do believe that on that day Jesus gave his best performance in humility and I use it as an example and draw strength from today.

    • Capitalist at Birth.

      I will not bother to try to explain economics to you, as you have displayed a complete ignorance of the subject. The biggest tax of all is called INFLATION. Our currency is worth less than 7 cents today. What do you think that is called in economics? Hidden tax?

      • Bill

        Hi CAB
        Back in the 70′s, I read an article in a Forbes magizine about the cause of inflation. They gave their Nobel prize for economics to Clark Gable and Chill Wills for a movie they made in 1942 called “Honky Tonk”

        The movie starts out with Clark and Chill being ran out of a town for cheating. As they are riding down the road, Clark says “We have to get another town but we have to get it legally”. So they get to the next town, get the confidence of the citizenry and Clark gets elected Sheriff and Chill gets elected Mayor.

        Clark decides that he wants to hire his thug buddies as deputies and he goes to Chill for the money. Chill says “we don’t have the money to pay for your deputies” and Clark said “just raise the price of beans to pay the taxes”

        So, you have the same amount of money to grow, ship and market the beans but now they cost more to pay for the new deputies

        So, as we continue to increase the size of our public sector and our entitlement dependant, we will have to raise the price of our beans to pay for it

        I expect this to go over the heads of all of our liberal posters because they live in an fantasy reality.

    • Paul Wells

      Karolyn’s (and Harry Reid’s) beliefs on budgeting:

      Every night, the budget fairy comes and replenishes my piggy bank, so I can spend all my money, until the next day. It’s a good system, and I never ask the budget fairy where the money comes from. Life is good!

      • Bill

        Good analogy, Paul

      • nc

        Paul, pick any country in the world where you think life is better than here in the good old USA? Yes, life is good ! Our enemies are staying away from our shores by the billions! The terrorist are not attacking us HERE now that AIR HEAD is back in Crawford and our planes are not free for the taking! N!o one is any where close to starving to death from taxes and jobs are being added instead of puking up 2.6 million a year like under the daddy’s boy from Crawford!

      • Capitalist at Birth

        Good one Paul, I actually enjoyed a hardy belly laugh with that. Thanks

      • Mike in MI

        Paul Wells -
        Quote from the back waters in Detroit city: “Oh, I don’t know where he gets it from . . .Obama’s stash pro’ly.”

    • WhiteFalcon

      A tax is a tax is a tax. It all amounts to you giving the Government, the biggest group of thieves in the hietory of the world, all of the production of your labor. So what if they, for example, lower income tax 10% if they increase the tax on everything else 20%? You are getting screwed either way. I’m afraid it is time for a Constitutional Convention to totally throw out this sorry excuse for a Government and start over with the origional Constitution and Bill oif Rights, but add term limits for the Congress and President and Supreme Court, and a provision giving states the right and responsibility to determine if any Federal Law will be enacted within their respective states. This, I believe, will keep the Federal Government in its place. There are several other things, but these are I think among the most important. Also, those currently in the Government should not be allowed to run for public office again, ever.

    • Bill

      Karolyn
      Do you also believe in Santa Clause and the Easter Bunny?

      • nc

        Bill, I don’t believe in Santa Claus or the Easter Bunny because I don’t know of anyone who has EVER shaken their hand! Come to think of it, the same applies to the Trinity(?) and Satan(?)!!!!!

      • DaveH

        But you do believe in getting together with a very large gang of like-minded people to steal other peoples’ money and force your personal choices on other people, NC.
        I would take the religious believers over your kind any day of the week.

    • http://donthaveone Beberoni

      If my taxes are going up Karolyn, and I make less than 65 grand a year, I guarantee you all the working stiffs in the middle class like me, are having their taxes raised. However, the top 1% that Obama demonizes as the guys he is after, wont be affected by this. It was just his prop to fleece us all. Thing is, our small business is being taxed more, as are the millions in this country. You take the business money, tax them more, leave them less, they hire less, more become unemployed, and less money goes into the tax coffers, whereas if you leave them alone, they will for the most part, take that money, invest in their business, buy new equipment, hire more workers, and more tax revenue is generated. But the democrats have it all backwards. Their solution is to punish the successful and give the rewards to the failures, the handouts to those who wont work, the bailouts of companies that have proven they dont know how to run a business properly. This is totally wrong. When someone is failing, you dont pat them on the back, and say “thats ok, here is some money for you”, no, you tell them to try a little bit harder. There are jobs, but they dont want them. I have heard far, far too many times from guys, “why should I work when they give me all this stuff for free.” And that is the mindset, and our government rewards it. Wrong, wrong, wrong. Now dont get me wrong, I am all for helping those in need, and I give away plenty of my paycheck every week, far and above 10% of it. But those who decide its better to take a handout than to work, when they are capable of working, just not wanting to, well, they have nothing, because of lack of ambition and character, as they have no problem being a sponge to society. But those are not poor people. They are just poor in character. Its not right to reward them for this behavior. Therein, lies the problem.

      • Karolyn

        Haven’t “seen” you in a long time, Beberoni. For some odd reason, your “name” popped into my head the other day when I was thinking of something.

    • kkflash

      Karolyn,
      You have obviously fallen for BO’s campaign [expletive deleted] story. Taxes are going up for everyone (even the 50% of the populace that doesn’t pay “income” taxes). Have you looked at your cell phone bill recently? The federal and state taxes and fees on my phone bill increased by 24% on my January 1 bill, even though the price of my phone services did not change by one penny. If you think you are going to avoid higher taxes because you don’t make $400K+ per year, you’re just another deluded fool who voted for the Obamanation.

    • Steve E

      Many seniors who are retired or too old to work live on stock dividends. Those dividends and all capital gains taxes are going up from 15% to 23.8% (3.8% of that is Obamacare taxes). So all the stockholders will have a tax increase also no matter how high or low their income is. They are getting the shaft also. Not just the $400,000 income group.

    • DaveH

      Karolyn says — “Taxes going up for “the vast majority of Americans?” I thought only the payroll taxes were going up, and that was not up for debate; and that income tax is only going up for those who make $400,000 and up, certainly not the “vast majority.””

      How do you think the Rich will pay those taxes, Karolyn?
      They will raise their product prices (if they can).
      They will lay off workers, or reduce their pay, if they can’t raise their product prices.
      If they can do neither of the above, they will either go out of business or move to another country where they can get more favorable treatment.
      None of the above is good for the rest of us.

  • ToughGuy1

    Doesn’t matter to them their BIG GOVERNMENT with little brains with the exception of a few in Congress. Majority took Obama (Jr.) and his minions and re-elected him. So all of us has a income, we all pay, that have jobs and work, were screwed! And will keep borrowing money from the Chinese. We can’t pay it back. Like a loan. Their going to own us!

    • Paul Wells

      Until they day (and believe me, it’s coming!) that they decide we’re not worth owning. Then see what happens!!!

    • John R. Howell

      Good morning ToughGuy,
      After a few years of hyperinflation, we will pay back China with dollars that are worth only ten cents or less of their present value. We know that, and China knows that, so why does it happen? The reason is that the United States gives China Most Favored Nation trading status, and in exchange they buy up our junk bonds. John R. Howell

      • Mike in MI

        John R. -
        Right, and then, when China does something to try to protect their investment, Obama goes on a Chicago-style tantrum and accuses China of “unfair currency manipulation”.

  • http://yahoo Melody LaForce

    For the first time in my life since JFK I have seen a country unite behind one man and include his family as well. The others I heard little of the first lady in comparison to Michelle Obama. Saw and heard less of the president. Just about never saw or heard of the vise president and his family. For the first time I see a man in office who has been backed up against a wall and took on a firing squad unless he could make miracles happen. I feel in my heart and soul that this is not just a man voted into office, but a man different from all the rest and that is what we were all hoping for. He took on a battle that was nearly impossible to win. Against a mob relentless to change the system that only supported their wellbeing ( Republicans and Congress ). He did everything he said he would in his first 4 years. Still there are americans that can’t see thru the fog. He can only do what he can get passed. If he can’t take a big bite as he hoped out of this country’s downfalls from a government already crooked from past monopolizers, and he can only take a nibble in a more positive direction, then that is all he can do. As far as the statement above by “Scott”… The President has taken less vacations than any other president in the past. And frankly,… with what he has had to deal with considering the pressures from the opponents and americans expecting him to perform miracles,… l think he deserves more vacations than he has taken… just to catch his breath for the next round of punches with the morons like Boehner.

    • John R. Howell

      Miss LaForce, You are obviously a communist just like Obama. John R. Howell

      • Paul Wells

        More prudent than my post….I was just so shocked, I typed the first thing I though…always a bad practice. And I agree, that is so untruthful, I just still don’t know how to respond to. Communism lives!

    • http://donthaveone Beberoni

      Are you kidding me? Did everything he said he would do? Well, lets examine a little. He said he would have a transparent government, yet he does all these backroom deals hidden from everyone. He said he was closing Gitmo. Still open. He said he was going to reduce the deficit, instead he enlarged it more in 4 years than all the presidents in history combined could do in over 200 years. He said he was bring home the soldiers, instead he escalated our forces in Afghanistan, and we still are deploying more over there. He said he was going to unite us. Instead, he has caused the biggest division ever seen between both the parties, and the American people in general. So I have to take issue with your statement that he has done everything he said he would. You are as big a liar as he is then, because what I listed above is all factual and true, and that is just the tip of the iceberg lady. Wake up and smell the roses. Unbelievable.

    • S.C.Murf

      melody did you need LaForce to help you get your head shoved so far up your @ss? Unbelievable girl, our govt is working for big business so as they can take over and rule the world and if you don’t see it their way then you do not eat, get it? I doubt it.

      up the hill
      airborne

    • http://donthaveone Beberoni

      Less vacations? Oh my gosh. Someone call this woman a doctor, and get me some hip waders. Its getting deep in here.

      • Paul Wells

        Now, see…I said the same thing a little more forcefully, and more directly…and *my* comment got removed! (LOL)

      • S.C.Murf

        Paul Wells I had made a comment about doc being a doctor of proctology and it was posted and then it wasn’t. Has to be the aliens. HaHa

        up the hill
        airborne

    • Bill

      Melody,
      You are delusional

    • kkflash

      Melody LaForce:

      What planet are you from?

    • Steve E

      Melody, Hitler would have loved you. I can see you now in the crowds hailing Hitler when he gets in front of the Nazi crowd and speaks. Just like you would if it were Obama speaking his place. You should watch documentaries about Hitler on the History channel and you will be able to see yourself in the crowds.

    • Nadzieja Batki

      Lady, what whoppers you tell. No, the country is not united behind O, maybe it is in your dreams.

    • JC

      Melody LaForce says:
      January 4, 2013 at 8:27 am
      For the first time in my life since JFK I have seen a country unite behind one man and include his family as well. The others I heard little of the first lady in comparison to Michelle Obama. Saw and heard less of the president. Just about never saw or heard of the vise president and his family.
      __________________________________________________________________
      For the first time in history the White House is a circus side show complete with a trailer trash First La…I can’t even say it…
      And it has managed to rally a whole lot of really stupid lazy people under a single mantra…”Gimme stuff”.

      Yeah your boy is a real prince.

  • John R. Howell

    If we can survive four more years of the worst president in history, our only chance will be to get a true conservative like James DeMint to run for president. DeMint has a Heritage Foundation conservative voting score of 99 per cent. Several other members of the Senate and House of Representatives have high conservative voting scores. If the national Republican party gives us another middle-of-the-road candidate for president, the Republican voters will stay home in disgust, and an Obama clone will get elected. John R. Howell

    • nc

      John. what makes Demint’s approval by the very conservative Heritage Foundation such a convincing call for you? Go back and check in 2000 and 2001 on how convinced the Foundation was that the bush tax cuts would out produce the prior Clinton administration and urged Congress to pass it> THAT TURNED TO BE A WORSE CALL THAN ROOT’S LANDSLIDE PREDICTION AND Hannity’s “SWEEP” IN 2006!

      • DaveH

        What happened to those 3 million new jobs that Obama predicted, NC?

    • Steve E

      John, I’m afraid that another RINO will be nominated again to run for the Republicans in 2016. Of course they will loose again. The Repubs will never catch on. I believe the Repub party is dead on the Presidential level for many years because they will never learn. They will still vote for RINOs in the primary, and many will stay home, like you said, or (like me) write in another candidate.

  • Flops

    ‘Liberal’ or ‘conservative’ on Capitol Hill … it doesn’t matter. Both serve the interests of Israel before the interests of real Americans. We were attacked on 9/11 because of the ZOG’s radical pro-Israel policies. Jewish advisors to President Bush (a ‘useful idiot’ for the Jews) persuaded him to invade Iraq to protect Israel from Saddam Hussein. Jewish money manipulators on Wall Street caused the sub-prime scandal and thus trillions of dollars. Blame the Jews, because they are the main reason is why America could collapse soon.

    • http://donthaveone Beberoni

      Israel didnt need us to protect them from Saddam Hussein. Are you kidding me? They could have leveled him anytime they wanted, and they can level Iran anytime they want, if we would stop handcuffing them, they would take care of it all. If you know God at all, you would know this. They dont need us to have their back, He has their back. But the moment we forsake them and desert them, I assure you, His hand will be totally removed from us. Its getting close to that day, I assure you.

      • nc

        Beberoni, If you believe the story in THE BOOK, GOD(?) has had their back since the beginning of time! Where are they today 6000 years later???????????? Depending on a country 4000 miles away (USA) to survive in their original region! They might be able to handle any one country with what we have given them already but without us they are surrounded in a country the size of a golf resort! There are 1..5 billion Muslims more or less and quite a few less Israelis ! At some point in time the US may have to make a value decision on what is best for us! After all, both Jews and Muslims are children of Abraham and we have caught the Jews spying on us more than any Muslim nation!

    • Charlie

      Flops,,,
      Can you tell Beberoni who or what a Jew is according to The Bible??? See 1 Chronicles 16:13 for who, God’s Chosen people are… See Revelations 2:9 and 3:9 for who the fonie Jews are… Also tell Beberoni , Obadiah is about to happen … Meanwhile…………………
      Praise King Jesus for Salvation and Healing… Acts 2:38 is salvation…

      Charlie Freedom

      • Frank Kahn

        Hey, Charlie, want to wage you cant tell a real Jew from a Fake? Want to prove how it is possible that some Christians are actually seen as part of the chosen people, how they might be considered the children of Israel?

        • macgyver1948

          Frank Kahn… I am not sure of your slant here so I am only asking. How can any of this you are asking or supposing be proved? What Christians would be Jewish and how could that be since real Jews cannot accept Jesus – according to Hebrew Scriptures? (Go ahead and ask how could that be since there is no mention of or suggestion/hint of Jesus in the Hebrew Bible). Jesus was Jewish until he died and so were the disciples. Did any of them have kids? Some stories say Jesus and Mary, the younger one – the supposed prostitute, were married and had kids after they moved away suggesting he never died then to be “risen”.

          What is a “real Jew” according to Christians and would it depend on what kind of Christian, what denomination? I ask since because there are so many and all say they are right but view many things differently from the others? How can any of this be proved or disproved and what is the point to really trying? Just believe what you choose to believe and we should stop telling others how wrong they are if they are not as “we” (whoever “we” are).

          By the way, the real Children of Israel are the descendants of Jacob, the grandson of Abraham, who was the first Jew. Jacob had 12 sons who populated the Twelve Tribes Of Israel from then on. Jacob’s name was changed to Israel. So, the descendants of those tribes are “The Children Of Israel”. This is Hebrew Bible stuff. Also guess from which tribe King David was descended, and Jesus. Oh wait not Jesus if you believe he did not have a mortal father. It goes by what ones mortal father was/is, it was a patriarchal society. I guess it depends on what Bible you choose as yours but if we are talking about Jewish history and religion then we have to go by the Hebrew Bible.

          1 Chronicles Chapter 1 דִּבְרֵי הַיָּמִים א
          34 And Abraham begot Isaac. The sons of Isaac: Esau, and Israel.{S}

          1 Chronicles Chapter 2 דִּבְרֵי הַיָּמִים א

          1 These are the sons of Israel: Reuben, Simeon, Levi, and Judah, Issachar, and Zebulun;
          2 Dan, Joseph, and Benjamin, Naphtali, Gad, and Asher. {P}

          • Frank Kahn

            My question was actually for Charlie Freedom, but if you want to find the answer to the question, you might look a little more and see if you can find where there will be included in the tribe of Judah (Jews) many that are not of his descendents. Maybe I am a little confused, it might be added to the nation of Israel those that are not direct descendents. Anyway, it is there that many who are saved will receive the blessing of God in accordance with the first covenant.

            And Jesus was Jewish, he certainly could not be a Christian.

          • macgyver1948

            Frank Kahn… Yes, although Jews do not go out of their way to recruit there are converts now and then. I did not mean to imply there weren’t. Sorry if I was taken that way.

            You said “And Jesus was Jewish, he certainly could not be a Christian”. You are right and I said that too and Jesus never converted.

          • macgyver1948

            Sorry, I was typing to fast. Here is what I should have sent:
            Frank Kahn… Yes, although Jews do not go out of their way to recruit there are converts now and then. I did not mean to imply there weren’t. Sorry if I was taken that way. I also included The Tribe Of Judah started with Judah, a son of Israel/Jacob’s, and they were Jewish by birth but over time some others could have joined them through conversion.

            You said “And Jesus was Jewish, he certainly could not be a Christian”. You are right and I said that too and Jesus never converted.

      • Mike in MI

        Hey, Frank and mac -
        You guys are wrong on every count, like I used to be, before somebody showed me that error communicated has a subtle but very negative effect in one’s life (which one usually blames on something else). Lies are lies.
        It is decidedly beneficial to study and make sure before you open your bazoo. And don’t assume that just one or two passages tell the whole tale about a point. One needs o categorize, correlate and collate God’s ideas before you communicate.

        • macgyver1948

          Mike in MI … Very philosophical of you. Of course you aren’t saying anything that wouldn’t apply to all sides and beliefs but you should get specific.

          Are you referring to me when you say mac? If so show me where I was wrong. You opened your “bazoo” but what are you saying that would mean anything in this comment of yours? And what is your religion for you to be so philosophical about others and still say nothing?

      • Charlie

        Frank Kahn,,,
        HaHaHAha ha ha ah,,, How much do you want to bet? is that payable in Gold , Silver or Federal Reserve notes… BUT,,. first a few Bible definitions have to be cleared up and agreed on… The word “Jew”,,, are you talking “Bloodline Jew? Or Geographical Jew, or Religious Jew?…Those are the three Bible definitions of the word “Jew”… Since you cannot prove The Bible wrong , I only deal in Bible Scripture… Meanwhile…………..
        Praise King Jesus for Salvation and Healing… Acts 2:38 is salvation…

        Charlie Freedom

        • macgyver1948

          Charlie… There are those who converted to Judaism, they are legitimate Jews too and can only become Jews through the actions of God or a Rabbi. It is not just for those of us Jews who are so by birth, bloodline Jews as you put it, and going back to Abraham. So, save your gold.

          It gets confusing at times when people like you say “I only deal in Bible Scripture” as you flop back and forth between the Hebrew Bible and the Christian Bible since they so contradict each other. To each his own faith.

        • Frank Kahn

          All are relevant to the wager, and a wager does not necessarily mean a payment of winnings in some form of worldly goods. There is something biblical about a payment of humility. I will allow you some leeway, only the bloodline Jews need be addressed here. But proof cannot be your opinion, nor will you find it in scripture.

      • Mike in MI

        macguyver -
        For me to fully lay out, document and try to help you I’d have to say that your response indicates to me (after decades of talking to people about God’s Word) I’d want to hear at least a tiny bit of humility in your thinking. But, I’ll take my cue from the Lord Jesus Christ who, being asked a question by a person who had a sincere interest in what the Lord had to offer he was tender and patient in responding.
        But, when the full o themselves scribes and priests came with their puffery he frequently told them, “Have you never read …?”, or said, ” It is written … (saying you study it if you want to learn)”. Maybe then it will mean something to you.

        • macgyver1948

          Mike in MI… I am thinking you may have missed this of me so I want to preface my response to you by saying this. I accept all religions for those who choose to subscribe to them. Noe are better than any other in their ways of proving anything, including mine, so we must accept other peoples choices for them as much as we would want our choice for us to be respected. Other wise we deserve no respect for our beliefs.

          I have read two Christan Bibles cover to cover, the Catholic Bible and the King James, also pieces of others here and there. I have read and studied the Hebrew Bible, several years in Hebrew School as a kid until a little while after my Bar Mitzvah. With you saying to me study it if you want to learn)”. Maybe then it will mean something to you”.What am I suppose you get from your Bible, remembering it is not mine, or is it that you feel if I do study it I will disregard the teaching of my Bible and fall over and convert? Your Bible is no more mine to believe in or convert to than the Karon is for you to convert to. I see many contradictions between your Bible and mine so what do I learn from you or it that would make me want to disrespect God as He was taught to we Jews?

          From the Hebrew Bible we can see God only as a single entity and not a trinity, that would violate our belief and practice of monotheism. God has no parts to us although He is know by many names. He is a single supreme spiritual entity. It is a sin to accept anything that is not God and certainly not something that is less than God, which all other things are. That means we cannot worship a demi-god.

          With all that said your Bible is based on the life and times and teachings of Jesus as you see it. Since we cannot worship Jesus, because it would be a mortal sin for us to, your Bible cannot be ours. So, I have to ask you. If your Bible is no accepted by us, any more than the Karon is by you, logically speaking how can we taking anything in your Bible as prof of anything. Is there enough logical understanding in you to answer that question?

          I accept and respect your Bible and your religion for you and that is why I say “To each his own faith”. I get uneasy when people go into my Bible and redefine the Hebrew scriptures for what ever and that includes the justification of something in their Bible. We do not see your Bible as a continuation of our Bible and that is also why we do not call our Bible “The Old Testament”. That is a Christian renaming of it for Christian purposes. Jesus is not mentioned in our Bible in any way. If you want to convince us of something, to be logically oriented, you must use something we can believe what you say. We just respect and accept what you believe for you. To each his own faith. That is “Freedom Of Religion”. Is not the disrespecting of other people’s religious choices and/or saying they are wrong if they do not agree with your beliefs. I often say we need “Separation Of Church And State” added to the Constitution for just that reason.

          I would defend you and your choices but I would fight against you and your Jihad if you force your beliefs on anyone. Do you know what you can do with your arrogance and pompousness? God’s word is different to each of us, depending on our religion choice, and not just how you see His word for you. Otherwise please explain why there are so many different God centered religions and also so many different denominations within the Christian Religion many of whom claim they are the only ones who are right in all they preach (so the others have to be wrong).

          On more thing. I have heard people say “you cannot prove “my” scriptures wrong”. I have no desire to prove their scriptures wrong, I do not need or want to. But just the same they cannot prove mine wrong.

      • Charlie

        Macgyver1948,,,
        Are you a True Christian ? per Acts 2:38? I use the KJV 1611 or the NASB, the NASB is easier to read… You cannot prove any Scripture wrong basically… If you can prove with a lineage chart ,that you are a Bloodline Jew , be careful , the lineage of Esau Edom are looking for you… The word Jew comes from the tribe of Judah. Judah was the 4th son of Leah, Jacob Israel first wife …
        King Jesus Christ was born a King , was executed a King of the Jews, that’s in The Gospel, first four books of The New Testament … King Jesus Christ is still King of His People , The Children of Jacob Israel … Abraham was a Hebrew ,,, Isaac was a Hebrew ,,,Jacob Israel was a Hebrew ,,, Judah was a Hebrew,,,but,,,the word Jew originated with his tribe and land area …
        Jacob had a twin brother named Esau, that’s where the battle between the lineage of Esau and Jacob started and is still going on today… Meanwhile………………………..
        Praise King Jesus for Salvation and Healing… Acts 2:38 is salvation…

        Charlie Freedom

        • macgyver1948

          Charlie… I see you are not paying attention. What do you mean by asking me “Are you a true Christian?”. LOL. The word Christian implies a believer in Christ and I do and can not. I am no kind of Christian, not at all, true or other wise, so your question is funny. I do not currently have a copy of the King James version but if what is in Acts 2:38 contradicts what is taught in Torah or the rest of the Hebrew Bible I would go with the Hebrew Bible’s view for it. I do however accept your version of what a Christian is for you.

          The only proof I have seen that my linage goes back to Abraham, and it cannot be complete since it doesn’t go back far enough, is an old family bible I used to read. It shewed ownership for several generations on one side and word of mouth was given for the other side. Not at all full proof but I choose to believe it and that is good enough for me. I do not need you to believe it.

          Let’s remember many of the old time cultures, and Judaism is no exception, was patriarchal by nature and tradition. That means the man in the family was king of the home and the one whose things were past on to future generations. If the man was the king of the nation he past that down to his oldest son or to a near relative if there were no sons, not through the women.

          Anyway, The Hebrew faith began with Abraham and went on through to his son Issac and then to his son Jacob, later called Israel. Then through Jacob’s 12 sons and on and on.

          You say here “King Jesus Christ was born a King , was executed a King of the Jews, that’s in The Gospel, first four books of The New Testament …”.

          I totally accept that for you and those who chose to believe it along with you. But who proclaimed or anointed him king? He was never anointed by any Jew, at least not any with the authority to do so, and he was never a Hebrew King just like he was never proven by the few in his day that he was the Hebrew Messiah. Most Jews in Israel or any place else in his day did not believe he was either. As a matter of fact Jesus never accomplished the deeds required of a person to be looked at to be the Hebrew Messiah, no even one of them. When it comes to Prophecies they are an all or nothing proposition so there is no confusing then, by accomplishing just a few or even one, with coincidence. Again, Jesus accomplished none of the prophesied deeds. Also there were many Hebrew Prophets and only a few of them spoke of the Hebrew Messiah. All of those few who did speak of the Hebrew Messiah believed the Hebrew Messiah would be a man, with 2 mortal biological parents. Now where would Prophets get that from?

          If you want to proclaim and believe Jesus was/is the Christian Messiah and Christian King we wouldn’t care, go for it. As I say I accept and respect your Bible and beliefs for you. But please do not claim he is what he isn’t to another religion and expect them to just go along and believe you. That is not religious Freedom Charlie.

      • Charlie

        Macgyver1948,,,
        You are duped, deceived and deluded by the Satanic powers that be … Have you read any Bibles ,,,KJV , NASB, etc that tell you about the Satanic powers , the Devil and / or his demons??? Do you believe the First Commandment ??? Identify your God / god…
        My God is The Almighty God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob Israel as called out in The Holy Bible , KJV… All these listed Founding Fathers ,were / are Hebrews,,, a Hebrew IS NOT a religion ,,,a Hebrew is a “Race”, Kind of people… The Lineage from Adam and Eve to Jesus Christ is listed in “The Bible”… BUT!!! remember!!! the lineage was split ,by God at the tower of Babel,,,and,,,again , split by God at Esau and Jacob … The lineage of Esau are the bad white guys,,,the lineage of Jacob are the good white guys…
        I will dare say ,you are from the lineage of Esau Edom, judging from all your comment writings ,and , I will also dare say most of the lineage of Jacob Israel ,today, have been bastardized or adulterated to some degree…
        King Jesus tells all ,who He came to save at Matthew 15:24,,,so?, what is going to happen to all these other cross breeds???,,,they will have to comply with most of John chapter 14 and of course Acts 2:38,,,OR?,,,they will become a road kill on the hi way to hell under The “Orders” of King Jesus Christ as written at Luke 19:27… Meanwhile…………………..
        Praise King Jesus for Salvation and Healing… Acts 2:38 is salvation…

        Charlie Freedom

        • macgyver1948

          Charlie… WOW!!! You say to me “Macgyver1948,,, You are duped, deceived and deluded by the Satanic powers that be … “. How would you know? Are you so close with Satan he told you during your tea time with him?

          What kind of canned programed idiot are you? Take your time in answering that but I see you are in denial of other people’s religious Freedoms and choices. Are you American? I see this kind of thing from so many fanatics who will not accept any beliefs which differ from theres in both the political arena as well as the religious one. You seem to deny the Constitution where it grants us “Freedom Of Religion” here.

          For you to call my Jewish beliefs and my love for Torah as it was taught to Moses, by God, and to all rabbis after him, with only personality differences in their teachings, is so much demented denial on your part. I would do that to you. I wouldn’t try to force on you what Torah says which contradicts the existence of the arrival of a Hebrew Messiah. You make it so difficult to respect you with how you push your “Only my ways are right for all “ C*R*A*P on those who will not agree with you. Again, I wound never do that to you.

          You are really either programed with your stuff or you are really stupid and totally lacking in logical thought and you are devoid of understanding human psychology. You cannot, NEVER, convince anyone of anything using something they do not accept as real or provable to them. It is you faith but it isn’t mine so you cannot use your Bible, the King James Version and whatever, as proof and expect me to fall in line. You have to try to use something they will accept as believable and acceptable to them. Otherwise, “You are really either programed with your stuff or you are really stupid and totally lacking in logical thought and you are devoid of understanding human psychology”. In other words, you have less than no credibility.

          By the way, again since I have said this before on here. I have read to Christian Bibles, the Catholic Bible and the King James Version, cover to cover and pieces of others. The cover to cover readings was a while ago but I can remember enough.

          If you claim for yourself “My God is The Almighty God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob Israel” then how come you have no understanding of Hebrew Scriptures as it has been taught since its arrival, including by Rabbi Jesus? You would see the contradictions between the Hebrew Bible and all of yours. But that is ok because I will not tell you your beliefs and interpretations for you are wrong. That would make me a hypocrite just as you are.

          Ok, let’s do this your way. You say “The Lineage from Adam and Eve to Jesus Christ is listed in “The Bible”. Let’s remember that most ancient societies, including the Hebrews/Israelites, were patriarchal, meaning from father to son. Inheritance was mostly that way and even kingdoms were not passed along generally to a woman. Chauvinistic I know but that is the ways it was. So, how can anything have been passed along to Jesus if Jesus did not have a mortal father, by your ways of believing. Or should I first ask “do you believe in immaculate or divine conceptions? Well, we do not because it defines what a demi-god is and we cannot believe or pray to anything but the single entity that is God Himself, not an idol or a less than god entity. It is a mortal sin for Jews to accept or pray to anything that is not God. By the way, my God is the God of Abraham, Issac and Jacob, renamed Israel. I do not know what you are talking about for you.

          By the way, The Golden Calf story is loaded with scriptural lessons. The calf itself is a symbol for what can piss God off for praying to anything which is not Him. God was going to kill all the Israelites for their sins, violating both the First and Second Commandants, you asked if I knew the First, and that tells us we better not be praying to or worshiping Jesus or anything else that is not God – the mortal sin part. Again, how come if you claim you are of the God of the 3 forefathers you do not understand God and His scriptures, Torah?

          So you want to insult and condemn me with “You are duped, deceived and deluded by the Satanic powers that be”. To equate me and Jews with Satan might just be a mortal sin on your part but just trying to get us to commit mortal sin is a mortal sin on your part all by itself when you are trying to get us to accept Jesus as you do. How can I respect you, or feel there is credibility associated with you, if you act like this intolerant and denying idiot? I still would stand up for your beliefs but you make it so hard.

          If you come at me again with your so UN-American, but more importantly, denying me my God given right of Free Will you will hear more descriptive adjectives and adverbs. Please take your Jihad and shove it. You really are an antisemit, loaded with hate for those who will not agree with you, and how do you think God would feel about that? Where does your kind come up with your hatred?

          Since you asked with “Do you believe the First Commandment ??? Identify your God / god…” You can bet your life I believe the First Commandant. I truly wonder about you though. Below is the Commandants I choose to use as reference from The 10 Commandants, which comes from Torah. I believe I have identified above the one and only God I believe in and follow.

          First Commandant – Thou shall have no other gods before Me…

          Second Commandant – Thou shall not make unto thee any graven image…

          And just for you and those as you Charlie:
          Ninth Commandant – That shall not bear false witness against thy neighbor…

          I have doubts you understand the meanings of these or the rest just by how you assault other’s beliefs but I include them. Enjoy your way because “To each his/her faith” and not just your ways for all.

      • Charlie

        Macgyver1948,,,
        You are taking the simple KJV Bible and making it far more complex than it is …
        I did not write The Bible, KJV, The Bible, KJV, was The “Law” Book in America for at least 1620 to 1700… I am a born in America lineage of “Shem” Man, a “Semite”, My “Rank” can tolerate your gross disrespect ,,,BUT!!!,,.your gross disrespect for The King of America will be held against you… IF The Bible,KJV, is wrong then you and others have far greater problems with your junk ,because the KJV offers The “Salvation” of King Jesus Christ, who is the king of your bible?… What is your Authority of Law? Meanwhile…………….
        Praise King Jesus for Salvation and Healing… Acts 2:38 is salvation…

        Charlie Freedom

        • macgyver1948

          Charlie,,, I was going to pass on this comment of yours until I came to “The King of America”, your referring to Jesus. Since when was this country, since the Revolutionary War which is when this country began, a MONARCHY”? What do the years “1620 to 1700” have to do with what American means since those years there was no sovereign country called America before 1776? The war was fought partially to get rid of monarchies and idiots such as you who want to push their religious beliefs on all, totally disregarding the Constitution. Why do you continue to use non proof as proof? And, I see you as wearing a Red Coat in the Revolutionary War if you were there then.

          By thee way, there is no mention of Christianity or Jesus in the Constitution and the Founders did that deliberately for the purpose of Freedom Of Religion even though most of the Founders were Christian. They wanted morals to guide us and law making but the did not want any specific religion to dominate. This is not and never was a Christian Country but it is a country for all religions to prosper in freedom. I do not think you understand freedom in its true concept. All through Human history many invading or conquering nations would destroy or absorb any and all religions within the nations they conquered. The Founders knew this from history and did not want that for here but there was also some Founder concerns with how King James was with his religions beliefs. People of different faiths came here for religious freedom because they felt they couldn’t get it where they were.

          It seems you want to take that away, liberty and freedom in general that is, if any of other people’s faith disagree with yours. You say we are wrong is we do not agree with you and your beliefs so what else am I suppose to believe? That is why I see you as Anti-American in that regard as well as being a religious bigot. You do not like religious freedom for all equally so lets take “Freedom Of Religion” out of the Constitution for Anti-Americans such as you. Let’s pick and choose which liberties and freedom work for us and get rid of the rest. That is how I see you. Again, “Charlie Freedom“ is a BS nick name for you.

          By the way, again, I did not say the King James Version is wrong for you and anyone who chooses it. But it is wrong for those who do not, such as Jews. For example, for those of the first world sanctioned Christian Church, the Catholic Church, what do you think they think of the King James Version and they aren’t Jewish either? If your IQ is higher than that of a hand ball’s please learn the difference, if you are capable. Again, for you, since it is your choice to accept as your bible, the KJV is right (for you). I am not disrespecting your bible, I have no respect for you, and those who think as you, any more. I love and respect God as we Jews see him and respect all other religions’ ways of accepting Him.

          You ask “what is your authority of Law?”. Well, religiously it is Torah, which means “of and from God”. Legally it is the laws of the land. Did I answer you or does it conflict with your beliefs?

        • Frank Kahn

          So, now you claim that through some miraculous divination you can trace your ancestors back through Abraham to Arpachshad and Shem? Bull Pucky!!!! You would be lucky to trace your ancestry back 300 years let alone thousands. I will give you the ability to say two things according to the Bible, you are descended from Adam and also from Noah. You have a high probability of picking correctly which of Noah’s sons you are from but that would be guessing.

          And you have a rank, or do you mean you are rank?

          Are you threatening him in a personal way, that you will punish him for his lack of belief in you savior? YOU CAN TOLERATE?

          NEWS FLASH CHARLIE WANNABE, GOD DID NOT ANOINT YOU. THE HEBREW BIBLE DOES NOT ACKNOWLEDGE JESUS AS THE SAVIOR, YOU CANNOT CHANGE THAT JUST BY FALSELY CLAIMING TO BE A DESCENDANT OF SHEM. YOU DID NOT WRITE IT AND YOU DONT HAVE GODS POWER TO REWRITE HISTORY.

          And, you might want to watch your words about proving something wrong. The Bible is not the original holy text. It is a derivative with the Old Testament based on the Hebrew Bible. The book names are changed somewhat but the story is the same.

          • macgyver1948

            Frank Kahn .. I do pretty much agree with what you say here to Charlie Freedom(?). I really do respect all bibles for those who choose them but this nut, and his intolerant and anti-Freedom kind, just have always urked me. I got it all to often since I moved to this so-called bible belt in the mid west a few years ago from New Jersey. The non acceptance of other’s beliefs is so anti-Freedom.

            Even though I respect how others accept God, and their bibles, it doesn’t make sense to me to put the two bibles, The Hebrew and the Christian Bibles in any form, in the same bindings but that is just me I guess. They really do contradict each other and the logic for placing them together escapes me, especially for those who are literate and can think for themselves after they read both. I even respect/accept Christian thinking in that the Christian Bible is a continuation of the Hebrew Bible but we Jews do not see it as a continuation. To each his own I say.

            Your NEWS FLASH to CHARLIE WANNABE is so right-on. He does seem to want to replace and correct God in that regard when it comes to Torah and that is a huge undertaking. I do not want to even try to correct his think of Jesus in any way for him but he is so provoking. I just love his way of proving the unprovable. He is a joke and is funny at times in his anger/hate (hate being the opposite of God) and his presentations.

          • Frank Kahn

            I have battled with him over his judgmental statements for some time now. He seems to suffer from several sins that are clearly stated in the scriptures he so loves to quote. He likes to interpret the words to fit his views of reality. I am not sure where he was going with his claim of ancestors, I was wondering which tribe of Israel he was claiming to be from.

            I am Jewish by ancestry but I do not practice strictly according to the Torah. I have read many different Bibles, including the Torah and even the Qur’an. I find most intolerance in different religions is due to ignorance. I was shocked to learn what is really in Islam’s holy book. We hear about how they demonize women because of their religion, but women are highly valued in the Qur’an. The barbaric treatment comes from the ruling clerics of Islam, not from the word of Allah. And Christians might think it is not like Our God to demand the death of non-Muslims, but I seem to remember Our God making similar statements but about non-Christians. There are also some parallels between the Qur’an and the Torah, or Jewish faith, neither believe Jesus was the son of God, or our savior.

            On the subject of Jesus, that is where I started battling with Charlie. He claims that the only way to the kingdom of heaven is through baptism. He seems to forget all the others who were given salvation without it. He will even tell you that all Jews must accept Jesus as savior or they will be damned to hell. I once asked him how you can believe in Jesus as Christ and be a Jew instead of a Christian. It would be impossible, in my opinion to have both.

            We just need to remind him that we all have the same God, just different opinions on the rest of the teachings that start in the New Testament.

          • macgyver1948

            Frank Kahn… I too was born and raised Jewish, in my case we are conservative in our religion, not our politics. I went to Hebrew school since I was a small child until about a year or so after my Bar Mitzvah. Things changed for me when I went into the Air Force but the spirit of Judaism never left me. My moms mother, who raised me, would disown me if I did not act in a Golden Rule way toward all people regardless of how they disrespect or respect our ways. This sorry Charlie guy is a ball buster and he and many like him make that difficult but I would never tell them they are wrong in their ways of accepting God for them, just in how they put others down for not being as they are. I agree, it is because of pure ignorance but also because of some emotional weakness and/or need I suppose.

            I have met many Muslims over the past few decades and made friends of some. Those who have become my friends I have learned from. What I have learned is that the majority of Muslims do not have this Jihad thing going within them. They do not believe they should kill infidels, those who will not become of their religion. They do not believe in treating people differently than they want to be treated. I fear when I hear or read stories certain Christian groups here show hate for all Muslims because it might just get many more Muslims to become violent toward all of us because of it. I fear the same when Jews do it too but I haven’t run into as many who do. I do know the many Muslims still talk about the Christian Jihad known as the Crusades and those stories still chill them today. So, a Jihad is a Jihad no matter who or whatever culture or ‘language’ does it. Bigotry is bigotry. And bigotry, hate, is the opposite of God.

            I do not know what to say about the kind of hate/ignorance and bigotry coming out of people like Charlie. He seems to be on the same level as Nazis in his approach of spreading his delusions. I am not saying Charlie is a Nazi but that he shows the same kinds of insaneness and hypocrisies. “Sorry Charlie” but you do and much of what you show is also a great disrespect for other people’s Liberties as well. Charlie, how can you in all that is sane expect people to respect for you or how you do it? I guess that is part of your dilutions. You, Charlie, obviously do not know what Torah is about so you should stay out of The Hebrew Bible and just stick with the Christian KJV, not even the first part of it, the Hebrew part, until you allow yourself to truly understand it.

            When people say “the only ways to the kingdom of Heaven is through Baptism and their Jesus” I know right off the bat they do not have a clue what Torah is about. For one thing God informs us in at least the Golden Calf Story there is no need for baby baptism and in other places the only ways to salvation is by directly communication With God. No Human intervention is needed or required and that human intervention gets in the way and is frowned upon. People, such as rabbis and priest/ministers and Imans etc, are there to help explain the respective scriptures but in now way do they replace God nor can they speak for or rewrite Him. This is a Jewish way so that is what I go by. Baptism is a sin for Jews because it is a replacement for what only God can do.

            Since there is such difference in how the different religions, and even between the denominations, in how we all relate to God we must respect all others’ ways or we deserve no respect for our own. I even feel attempts to recruit or convert people of other religions when those people say no the first time is disrespectful and insulting. If the person shows interest to begin with that is different. I feel these attempts to convert are as I say here because of the method of the conversion attempts. How can you convert some one without saying or hinting “your ways of believing and accepting God are wrong, they do not work and are no good so you should come over to us”. What would be the purpose of converting if you do not feel they are right about how worthless your beliefs are? This is how I see Charlie and his kind, insulting and disrespectful, but he goes way over board with the disrespect and the insults.

            I agree with you when you say it would be impossible to be a Jew and believe in Jesus according to Torah, and ultimately God through His Torah, but then we have one of the theological anomalies known as “Jews For Jesus” or “Jesus For Jews” so that contradiction is a puzzle to me too. But I respect their right to be them too. Why would people like, any non Jew who believes in God, want us to believe in Jesus when it is a mortal sin to do so? Isn’t trying to get other people to commit a mortal sin a mortal sin for them? More of a puzzle for me.

            Your last paragraph here stated “We just need to remind him that we all have the same God, just different opinions on the rest of the teachings that start in the New Testament”. How can we when he refuses to agree with anything which disagrees with how he wants to believe it should be for all of us? He is a lost cause until he starts to know what respect for others is about and Liberty for all is too. He lives in a bubble and there is no getting through to fanatics until they want to treat people in a God-like manner.

      • Charlie

        Mac, Frank,,,
        You all have fail to state IF,,,your God is The Almighty or some lesser god, and you have failed to define the word “Jew” per the Bible ,KJV, The Almighty God is The Father of King Jesus Christ, and you anti-Christ don’t agree with King Jesus Christ… Matthew 28:18 says King Jesus Christ has The same Power as The Almighty God… You dumb bell anti-Christ are in deep dog do do and don’t even know it… Meanwhile………………………
        Praise King Jesus for Salvation and Healing… Acts 2:38 is salvation…

        Charlie Freedom

        • Frank Kahn

          Still cant act like a true Christian can you.

          His God is the same as your God, that is not determined by the belief in Jesus as Christ.

          • macgyver1948

            Frank…Amen…

        • macgyver1948

          Oh Charlie boy…. HUH, can you learn to write English properly so people could understand you? What do you mean by “Mac, Frank,,,
          You all have fail to state IF,,,your God is The Almighty or some lesser god, and you have failed to define the word “Jew” per the Bible ,KJV, The Almighty God is The Father of King Jesus Christ, and you anti-Christ don’t agree with King Jesus Christ… “. God is God so if you have any 3 digit IQ points, and you believe in God as a Christian, you should know there is only one God. Whose God are you referring to?

          Also, what is the lessor god you refer to? It is hard to know how to answer you. Any referred to god, if not the one and only God, is a lessor god as it would be mythologically spoken of, in other words, not real.

          It is not that we do not agree with “King Jesus Christ”, it is more that we do not believe he was more than a mortal man, nothing more. How many times do we need to tell you that? Why would I define Jew according to the KJV when I do not avvept that as my bible? You are showing you are a programmed block head and you cannot get out of your bigoted idiot’s eternal loop. (Do-Loop… MyBibleSaysForAll:“King Jesus Christ” is the Messiah for all and you are fools and dummies if you do not agree. All religions are wrong if they do not agree. Goto [eternally] MyBibleSaysForAll).

          There just does not seem to be a way to get you to understand Liberty and Freedom equally for all, does it? You do so much misunderstand the Hebrew Bible but to go on trying to use it wrongfully. What is the point to idiot bigots like you?

          Generally Speaking a Jew is someone of the Jewish faith. Why is that too so hard for you? A Christian is one who generally follows the New Testament, to whatever their degree, as it defines Jesus so it is the same for Jew who follows Torah to whatever their degree. I believe I am of the linage of Abraham/Issac/Jacob(Israel) on through Levi but I can no more prove it than you can prove I am not. There are those who have converted to Judaism over the centuries and they are Jew(ish). What is your point to those questions?

          You call me a “Dumb bell Anti-Christ”. I am not against Jesus, I just do not believe in him. You are wrong about me in this but you surly are a dumb bell bigoted brainwashed idiot. Why do you take my God-given right of Free Will away from me? Do you know better than God to do that? And to throw “Matthew 28:18 says King Jesus Christ has The same Power as The Almighty God…” at me is insane when you know I go by Torah. The First Five Books of the Hebrew Bible are what make up the first part of our Hebrew Bible. You quote from it but you clearly do not know what you quote. The 10 Commandants, again and again…, is a small but very important part of Torah. The First 2 Commandments negate what “Matthew 28:18 says” for us as does, PERIOD. Jesus is NOT a Hebrew Messiah or Hebrew King based on Torah and he cannot be according to the Hebrew Bible in other places too so stop using it to defend your beliefs. You do not need to defend your beliefs to anyone but you make yourself out to be that “dumb bell bigoted brainwashed idiot” when you do as you do.

          I will NOT disrespect God as as we Jews see Him to do as you say, do you get that? So stop trying. This is why the vast majority of Jews, including two of Jesus’ brothers, Peter and James, and probably the rest of the disciples and Jesus’ mother Mary, were angry with Paul/Saul for his gospels. Look it up in your bible but why do you think we Jews did not conform to Paul/Saul’s gospels? Paul did not like Torah taught before Jesus Died and he did what he could to eliminate it after Jesus was crucified so the Jews were pissed at him. To eliminate Torah, as Paul/Saul tried, is like trying to do away with Judaism, and more so, telling Jews to say NO to God. We Jews will not do that for anyone, least of all s*h*m*u*c*k*s like you.

          Because you are so very insulting and disrespectful toward Judaism I have some questions for you based on the last paragraph and also Based on Matthew 5:17. (Jesus said, “Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy the law, but to fulfill. For verily I say unto you, Til heaven and earth pass, one dot or one tittle shall in no way pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.”) and Luke 16:17, “It is easier for heaven and earth to pass away, than for one dot of the Law to become void”. I think Jesus meant by “fulfill” is to teach it as a rabbi and carry it out, not replace it or destroy it. As a rabbi he would know he would be sinning if he tried to replace or destroy Torah.

          Now we Jews have never seen any real evidence that God’s Law, Torah, has been fulfilled to any extent let alone to where it should be eliminated (and since we do not believe anything Paul/Saul says (even about his adventure during his walk on the road to Damascus)) I ask you, based on Matthew 5:17 and Luke 16:17, has either, or both, Heaven and Earth passed away? If Earth is still here, as is evidenced by your existence and our discussions, Torah cannot be edited, reworked or done away with in any ways and Paul/Saul was lying. Either that or Jesus was lying when he was alive per Matthew 5:17 and Luke 16:17. You choose which one of them was lying but they cannot both be right. This is one of the contradictions which confuses me in your Bibles.

          I have many conversations with Christians but so many of them are adult and respectful to engage in academic discussion. You are a small spoiled child who throws his childish temper tantrums because he doesn’t get his way. You take the fun and the learning out of these discussions. Maybe when you grow up and learn to act as a decent adult you might be able to have those adult friendly educational discussions. Maybe…

      • Charlie

        Mac, Frank,,,
        The 2 Babelon heathen Jews,,, scratch you brainwashing with Matthew chapter 4, Who was the “Lesser god” that was tempting and testing King Jesus Christ ??? IT WAS THE DEVIL!!!,,, that’s you all’s small “g” god… Heathen dummies ,,, IF,,, there were no other lesser gods ,,, THEN COMMANDMENT NUMBER ONE!!! could NOT be violated, Dummy…
        So,,, why did The Almighty God have Commandment number one written???
        Also notice how King Jesus Christ answered the Devil at Matthew chapter 4,,, “”"It is written”"”,,,notice verse 4 is a Old Testament Scripture ,,,notice, verse 7 is also a OT Scripture , spoken by King Jesus Christ ,,, which ties in the OT with the NT… NOW!!! dummies,,, The New Testament is all about The Salvation that King Jesus Christ offers His people … WITH OUT King Jesus Christ AND His Salvation Plan in Scripture of The New Testament , Acts 2:38, THEN!!! you are on the way to hell and don’t even understand why but now you have been “Noticed”… Meanwhile…………..
        Praise King Jesus for Salvation and Healing… Acts 2:38 is salvation…

        Charlie Freedom

        • Frank Kahn

          Macgyver did not say there were no lesser gods, he just asked you which one you were referring to.

          I am familiar with the verse in Matthew you referred to as linking the New Testament to the Old, but I fail to see how it confirms the idea of Jesus as Christ.


          “5 Then the devil took him to the holy city and had him stand on the highest point of the temple.

          6 “If you are the Son of God,” he said, “throw yourself down. For it is written:

          “‘He will command his angels concerning you,
          and they will lift you up in their hands,
          so that you will not strike your foot against a stone.’[c]”

          7 Jesus answered him, “It is also written: ‘Do not put the Lord your God to the test.’ ” ”

          You will note that in verse 7 Jesus does not acknowledge being the son of God, he simply tells Satan that you should not TEST God.

          As to calling us Heathens:

          “hea·then (hn)
          n. pl. hea·thens or heathen
          1. Offensive
          a. One who adheres to the religion of a people or nation that does not acknowledge the God of Judaism, Christianity, or Islam.
          b. Such persons considered as a group; the unconverted.
          2. Heathen An adherent of a Neopagan religion that seeks to revive the religious beliefs and practices of the ancient Germanic peoples.
          3. Informal
          a. One who is regarded as irreligious, uncivilized, or unenlightened.
          b. Such persons considered as a group.”

          http://www.thefreedictionary.com/heathen

          I must assume that you are using item 3. a. for your idea of heathen. However, it is inconsistent to use 3. a. on someone that is eliminated in 1. a.! Followers of Judah (Judaism / Jewish) is listed as one of the faiths that are not Heathen.

          And, once again, you violate scriptures that should be followed by a true Christian. There is a part in the Bible where it tells you not to judge others, and warns that doing so will bring judgement on you. Since you stand so closely behind Jesus and say you follow his words in scripture, I know it was Jesus that said Let he who is without sin cast the first stone. Since you are, verbally, casting stones, am I to believe that you are “without sin”? And, if you claim to be without sin, are you brave enough to attempt to show me what scripture gives you that exclusive purity? As Mac has said, you are arrogant, this is the outward manifestation of PRIDE, you want me to explain which of the 7 deadly sins that is?

          NO, I do not give references to chapter and verse with my paraphrasing of the Bible, that does not make my statements less truthful. I read Mac’s post to you, where he used that method to soundly trounce your assertions. You have met a very worthy opponent in him. I think that, maybe, he knows the Hebrew Bible just a tad more than you do.

          • Deerinwater

            You gentlemen will have to overlook Charlie, he has been filling his lantern with some pretty thick oil it seems. I have concerns he might not ever get it lit.

            Why God matters can only be viewed though the eyes of a single group of people is laughable at best.

            Willful disobedience or malice is not a requirement of Sin, ~ To Sin simply means you have missed the mark and off target. Sin does not have to carry with it moral implications.

            The language used to explain and describe God and the Physical world could stand an “Up Grade” after all these many centuries if Charlie proves anything.

            Allow me to say ~ I maintain that God is not human, ~ God don’t love, God don’t hate and God is on everybody’s side. The more you understand the nature of the Spirit world, the more God will work through you. You will be put through trial, you will suffer. How we each endures this will determine our reward. BUT ~ do it because it’s the right thing to do and not for rewards.

          • macgyver1948

            Deerinwater… I agree, God is there for all of us, we each only have to accept or not accept him but how (meaning by what religions’ course). It is a Free Will thing. To deny others their ways of accepting God, such as people like Charlie does, is denying God’s gift of Free Will for them. Shows how in denial he is if he believes in God. I feel the oil will survive if it is left up to Charlie’s compassion and acceptance skills along with understanding, lol. He is devoid of these skills so I do not understand how he aligns himself with God. Oh well…

            I am not so in agreement with you when you say “God Don’t love” but it could be a matter of how we see Him. I see Him as pure intellectual spiritual love, the light and loaded with compassion for those who deserve and need but also with forgiveness. Satan is the symbol of the opposite of all that but less then God because he was created by God who gave him Free Will also. The spirit world is there for us to learn about and understand, God’s world. We might have tools, not yet totally understood by us, such as The Laws Of Attraction also created by God and there are many others, but since I have not gotten that to work for me at will I can’t be sure, lol… LOA does share many of the laws of Physics, also of God’s domain, so it is also interesting.

            By the way, I include “light” as part of my partial description of God because I believe in Genesis when God Said, at first, “Let there be Light” He was referring to Himself. The Sun, in this creation’s process was not created until a few day later in the week, God’s week, not ours, because all things are relative, says Einstein. Physics, Hebrew Kabbalah, Taoism, etc all are interesting and I wish I knew more of each. In Kabbalah it is said that we know less than 1 percent of what the Universe is about. Science, whatever branch, is only our “current” level of our understanding. Yes, as you say, the spirit world is interesting because it is God’s realm and the more we know of it the more we can enjoy. I choose all those positive enforcements because God is in all of them. The fun is in the details. This was fun.

          • Frank Kahn

            I would agree with most things you say, I am not sure about the Love part. He CARES and TREASURES all his creation, that might be viewed as love. You are correct that he does not hate.

            You are correct in the assessment of how it works, we face trials in our mortal lives that give us the opportunity to make decisions which can be judged in the purity of action. If we act out of spiritual understanding then our actions are good. If we act from selfish wants then we fail to perform in a manner that is beneficial to our spirits.

            I dont like to tread on the subject of sins too much, because it is a very slippery and tangled subject. Sins, seem to be defined, by many, according to their belief system, what is a mortal sin to one is acceptable to another. With this type of dichotomy it is hard to pin down what all sins really are. So if you get into an argument about sins, there will be much anger and hatred before you are finished.

          • Deerinwater

            Tell me Frank, is it common for a Rabbi to have disciples? I know very little about the Jewish Faith other then my Protestant background and teaching which would limit my knowledge and understand substantially. To tell you straight up, I really don’t know what a Rabbi is or what it takes to be one. If it.s as you say many Jews or some Jews did consider Jesus a Rabbi. ~ I can look these questions up and plan too. ~ If Jesus was seen a Rabbi. I’d like to understand how that occurred ~ what commissioned him for the position? Is there a brotherhood, a tenure, a trial, a test? Who recognizes an individual as deserving the title? Does this mean they can read and write, that they have been scholars?

            I understand you feeling regarding the term “SIN” ~ as the Christian Faith has taken great liberties with the term, turning it’s meaning into something that serves their purpose. Unless prepared for a siege, best not go there.

            How can it be discussed intelligently ~ if toxic shame is it’s only closes association that is understood with little variance offered to digression.

            As for Gods love, if we accept God as our creator, ~ why would you create something you hate? Making God’s love somewhat superfluous it would seem to me. The problem I see with selling the feature of Gods love is when bad things happen to good people. There is little comfort in someone telling you that the Lord moves in mysterious way during such times.

            We have a sign posted at the horse stables, “Penalty for Neglect” ~ but look hard as you might, you won’t find any rules posted ~ if anyone does not know what constitutes neglect, coming to the stables prepared to learn is mandatory.

            I guess what I’m attempting to say is ~ There is a way of doing things that works best for everyone ~ and when you are to the point that you understand that ~ you are beginning to fitting into Gods plan regardless of what you call him.

          • macgyver1948

            Deerinwater… Generally rabbis do not have disciples, as Jesus seemed to have, so to speak, although they might have some sort of assistants, which is funny. I do not understand the disciple thing with Jesus other than how it would apply by its definition – “One who helps spread his masters teachings”. A rabbi’s assistants would help do that if asked or they would say “Ask the rabbi”.

            The word Rabbi literally translated means “teacher”. And in the case with rabbis it means “a teacher of Torah”, that is his main function although he has others. Jesus was that. Torah was presented to Moses by God and God asked him to teach it to the people. God, as the story is told, told Moses to write It down exactly as He dictated and then teach it to the people. I think Moses was the first rabbi. That is what God and Moses did during those 40 aimless years of wandering in the dessert, the Isrealites and Moses for the wandering – not God. That 40 years was the punishment for the generation of Israelites, to die out and not beable to enter the Promised land,for that damning golden calf thing. Anyway…

            Many Jews at the time did consider Jesus a rabbi and even the hierarchy of Jews felt Jesus was a good respected rabbi even though some felt Jesus’ methods were a bit radical. Jesus did not have a big following while he was alive but he was effective enough in his teachings of Torah for the Romans to feel they should arrest and kill him for heresy.

            God is love and I believe He did not create something that He hated. Because of Free Will hate is a choice as evil is. He created Satan as an angel, I suppose, and Satan decided he knew better than God, along with the hate and evil in Satan we have the “fallen” part for him and his “disciples”. These are all from nice stories, and there could be truth to them, but I do believe God is LOVE, spiritual love.

            When you have more than one person you need some kind of rules. “Penalty for Neglect” sounds like a good rule but there are times when clarity, and specifics spelled out, is needed when it isn’t there for some. God gave us Jews rules/Laws and He spelled them out. Those rules, or Laws, are called Torah and I do not believe God meant them for only Jews. He meant then for all who would accept ALL of them and that meant for all time until He Himself said otherwise. Shalom.

          • Deerinwater

            Thanks macgyver1948, I enjoyed your response. ~

            Yes, rules need to be spelled out ~ but in common stable with 49 other people’s love and joy ~ it’s assumed you know the rules or you shouldn’t be there. ~ ” I didn’t know” is not an acceptable excuse.

            So Jesus was a Rabbi, a teacher , a practicing teacher of the Toga ~ is that it? I’ll look into that more. And the Toga was give to Moses by God ? So is the Toga the same thing as the 10 commandments or is it something different?

            As I understand it, it was not the State that leveled this charges of heresy against Jesus but the Church, the State found itself compelled to investigate and render judgement. Your accounting seems to downplay the involvement of the Church in the matter of Jesus verses the Empire of Rome. Maybe it’s just my taught Christian bias bleeding through?

            I really don’t believe the Roman Empire feared one or 300 peasant Kings or street corner barkers. I do believe however, appointed statesmen had a function to preform which had nothing to do with being a source of penitential embarrassment back in Rome. The Church was to be offered consideration for the common good and general welfare.

            It funny how both our views are similar but vary.

          • macgyver1948

            Deerinwater… You asked “So is the Toga the same thing as the 10 commandments or is it something different?”. Well, The 10 Commandants is part of Torah, it comes from Torah. So in effect the 10 Commandants is Torah. Actually there are 600 plus commandants which God offers in Torah and “The 10 Commandments” are the first 10. God wants people to accept ALL of His Laws/Torah and the Israelites were the first of whom God approached with the offer who accepted ALL of them. There were other peoples who God approached before the Israelites but none of those would accept all of the laws/Torah. The “ALL” part is very important so only the referred to ’10 Commandants’ is not complete.

            You also include “As I understand it, it was not the State that leveled this charges of heresy against Jesus but the Church, the State found itself compelled to investigate and render judgement. Your accounting seems to downplay the involvement of the Church in the matter of Jesus verses the Empire of Rome. Maybe it’s just my taught Christian bias bleeding through?”.

            I am not sure from accounts in the New Testament since I do not believe in it nor is it my Bible but The state, Rome, had laws against saying there is an entity that is higher and more important than the emperor of Rome. That is heresy. Jesus did that publicly because he knew God was the highest. You call it “the Church” but I call it the Temple and the authority of the Jews back then. From what I read the Hebrew authorities respected Jesus as a rabbi although they felt he was a bit radical. I do not get jealousy from them in what I have read as it is in the New Testament but what can we prove? So I do not know how to answer this.

            Rome did not look at Israel and its people as anything more than a conquest. I do not think they feared Israel either but the Israeli rebels were a thorn in their side. That was proven in the year 70 AD when the Roman Emperor ordered his General Titus to totally destroy the city of Jerusalem, after the Romans totally crushed the rebellion, for the rebellions and the backing of the Israeli people of the rebels/insurgents. This destroying of the city of Jerusalem, their end of times, is the proving of the prophesy the Prophet Danial spoke of a few hundred years earlier and is written in the Hebrew Bible.

            Our views can be different and varied depending on the readings and research we have each done and according to how we each choose to believe. I so much believe in Torah, as well as the rest of the Hebrew Bible, and history, they do not contradict. I see major contradictions between the Hebrew Bible and the Christian Bible(s), as well as denials of history by Christians, so there can be differences in how we see things. No big deal if we accept our differences with respect.

          • Frank Kahn

            Wow, you hit the question nail on the head there. I am posting a quote from you post so I dont miss a point.

            “Tell me Frank, is it common for a Rabbi to have disciples? I know very little about the Jewish Faith other then my Protestant background and teaching which would limit my knowledge and understand substantially. To tell you straight up, I really don’t know what a Rabbi is or what it takes to be one. If it.s as you say many Jews or some Jews did consider Jesus a Rabbi. ~ I can look these questions up and plan too. ~ If Jesus was seen a Rabbi. I’d like to understand how that occurred ~ what commissioned him for the position? Is there a brotherhood, a tenure, a trial, a test? Who recognizes an individual as deserving the title? Does this mean they can read and write, that they have been scholars?”

            For the first question, about disciples, we must separate the word from its Christian meaning. The problem with the Christian meaning is that it is used to imply a follower of Christ’s personal teaching. If you remove Christ from the definition then you have the correct definition. A disciple is a follower, a student of a person or ideology. If you will accept that definition, then yes ALL RABBI’S have disciples.

            I am not an expert on what it takes to become a Rabbi, but I know that the original meaning of the word is teacher. The Rabbi is the member of the Jewish community that knows Hebrew law, and is sought out for understanding by the members of the community. But, to define a Rabbi is difficult because the role has expanded from its original meaning. A true Rabbi is not the leader of a church (synagog) like a Priest or Minister. Traditionally he is a teacher, a scholar of Jewish oral and written law and history. Historically he was selected by the members of the community as the most knowledgeable to serve as their guidance counselor so to speak. His guidance can be viewed as spiritual in that he follows and teaches the Torah or the rules of God. Now there are different levels of Rabbi, some are just teachers, some are also judges (not in the Mans law way). Things have changed in how one becomes a Rabbi in modern times. Now there is indeed scholastic requirements. They are required to attend a Jewish school of religion to study the Torah and other things related to the Hebrew history. I dont know how Jews view the organized teaching of Rabbi’s in school as opposed to the ancient personal learning, but I guess it should result in the same level of knowledge.

            If I was to give a description of what a Rabbi is to the Jewish community, I would have to call him a sage, a wise man, a leader of the people in the ways of Judaism, a counselor in life.

            I am trying to be as precise as possible but it is difficult to describe what he is, it is often more a matter of what he does. You can research this question on the internet, but if you want the real truth I suggest you go to a Synagog and ask them, they are more informed about this than me.

          • macgyver1948

            Frank Kahn… You say “If I was to give a description of what a Rabbi is to the Jewish community, I would have to call him a sage, a wise man, a leader of the people in the ways of Judaism, a counselor in life.

            Nicely put and it is your way to express it and I agree with you. As I told Deerinwater the word “rabbi” literally means, translated from Hebrew to English, “teacher”. Actually it specifically means a teacher of Torah which is a rabbis primary function even though he has others.

            The word “disciple” means, by definition, “a helper of the master”. As I commented to Deerinwater “Generally rabbis do not have disciples, as Jesus seemed to have, so to speak, although they might have some sort of assistants, which is funny. I do not understand the disciple thing with Jesus other than how it would apply by its definition – “One who helps spread his masters teachings”. A rabbi’s assistants would help do that if asked or they would say “Ask the rabbi”.

          • Deerinwater

            Thanks for taking the time to indulging me Frank, ~ that will go a long way is my quest for understanding. So a Rabbi is a hands-on sort of position. In fact, he would be accessible and the first to be presented questions of concern and interest?

            And that the use of and the nature of disciples took on a new meaning after the death of Christ but only inside the context of the Christian faith. I can’t help but think the Evangelical arm of Christianity spun off from this same event.

            Armed with this basic information to aid me will make searching for answers easier.

          • deerinwater

            Forgive me, you too macgyver, ~ these is much I’d like to better understand.

          • macgyver1948

            Deerinwater… I will answer what I can…

          • macgyver1948

            Frank Kahn and Charlie Freedom(?)… I missed it before since Mathew said a fair amount of things and I wasn’t sure. I do not currently have a Christian Bible so it isn’t available to me now. But, if that is what Charlie boy is referring to, the linking of the two bibles (Hebrew and Christians), I also have to disagree. They are only linked by the minds of those who accept Jesus as the Messiah and no one else. I respect their right to believe it but it does not make sense to those who do not accept Jesus as the Messiah to hook onto the connection.

            I would like Charlie to answer which lessor gods he was referring to. In reality there are no lesser gods for real, only mythological ones such as demi-gods and the idols which represented imaginary gods, but I would enjoy hearing his vision of them. And, no mythological demi-god or statue representing phony gods could ever be equal to God, not in power or representation. Only God Himself can do that. I hope Charlie reads this.

            I am not sure of this either but weren’t Jesus’ encounters with Satan Dreams? I have had dreams where I met with super heroes and I never believed them. One time I told george w bushie off (oh, gw is no super hero), lol.. Just like I do not believe Paul/Saul’s account of his vision on the Road to Damascus. If I did believe Paul I would also have to believe there are two distinctly different Jesus in the Christian Bible, the living Rabbi one and the spirit one of Paul’s, and they would not like each other. I Know you have to be a Christian to believe these dreams/visions but they have that right.

            Frank, thank you but I am not an expert in the bibles, I just read them. Compared to Rabbis I am very much not an expert. And, by the way, if I wanted Hebrew Scripture interpreted for me I would ask a rabbi before I would ask any Catholic priest or Christian minister because of their respective slants. I would want to know of the Hebrew Bible what it has meant since Mose’s, and yes Jesus’ time and for that I could get it only from a Hebrew scholar and teacher, such as a Rabbi. If I wanted Christian scripture interpreted I would go to a Catholic priest or Christian minister, depending on which slant I wanted or maybe both for a comparison since they could be different between them. Too bad there are so may different Protestant churches with different slantings of their own because there would be a lot to choose from. All that, considering interpretations from Catholic priests or Protestant ministers, would be strictly for academic purposes..

          • Frank Kahn

            I did not mean to imply that you are an expert, I was just trying to point out that you appear to have a better comprehension of the Torah (Hebrew bible) than Charlie.

            I have often seen where Charlie either cherry picks his scriptures or misinterprets them. In my last post to him, I was only trying to point out that verse 7 of Matthew was not meant to support Jesus as the savior. Sometimes I attempt to correct his comprehension abilities.

            I would agree with you on both points, If I had questions about the Old Testament I would feel more assured to seek advice from a Rabbi than a Catholic Priest. If I was seeking clarification for the New Testament I would consult with a Christian Theologian not Charlie.

            I would also point out that Charlie never tries to discuss views, he is only pushing his idea of God and Jesus and if you dont agree with him he uses condemnation and name calling as a come back.

            Even though, I believe in Jesus as Christ, he has called me a religious Jew, and uses it as if it is some kind of put down, like Judaism is some kind of crime against God. I wonder how, in his mind, he reconciles the fact that Jesus was a Jewish Rabbi.

          • macgyver1948

            Frank Kahn… No problem concerning what you might imply or not, I was just saying I am no expert and that is ok with me.

            I think a lot of what people like Charlie do is take a scripture from the Hebrew and redefine its meaning to justify something they believe. If that is true, and I think it is, what they do not realize is they do not need to be be the kind of Christian to be the kind they want to be. They are just asses when they go past that and insult those who refuse to believe as they do. They fail to realize that everyone has the right to believe as they choose, The Free Will Thing, just as much as the Charlies of the world do. I get angry when people tell me I am wrong when I accept God as Torah teaches us. I have never told Christians they were wrong just because Torah says they are so why do some of them do that to those who aren’t “them”. When they do I say what I can to combat their insults and BS.

            Where we both agree in that we would ask a Catholic Priest or a Protestant Minister for interception of their respective scriptures I too wouldn’t ask the Charlies of the world unless I wanted an answer based on prejudice and bigotry and programmed hate for those who will not see things their ways.

            Your last paragraph “Even though, I believe in Jesus as Christ, he has called me a religious Jew, and uses it as if it is some kind of put down, like Judaism is some kind of crime against God. I wonder how, in his mind, he reconciles the fact that Jesus was a Jewish Rabbi”. If you do not agree with all he says what else can he say about you since anger and corrupt thinking guides him? By the way, I do not agree that Jesus is the Christ as you do, because I cannot as I think you know, but I would never say you are wrong and I would defend your right to believe he is. I do not think Charlie believes people who will not agree with him have rights. That is way I have only pity for him.

            This is a religious platform but there are people who are like him in the political platforms as well. They always believe they are Right and all who are not with them are evilly wrong. It is the same mind-set. Liberty and Freedom, in either religion or politics for those, just doesn’t mean anything to them if we do not agree with them. So much for Americanism. I can see by how the US Constitution was written the Founders would not agree with the Charlies of the world, politically or religiously. “Separation of Church And State” should be added to “Freedom Of Religion” and the Charlies continue to prove that. Now I wonder if the “Charlies” of the country would accuse me of wanting God out of the country, LOL…

          • Frank Kahn

            Well, I have seen others on this site that seem less vitriolic than Charlie that might suffer from a similar misguided view of religion. I have seen many claim that God was taken out of our schools because mandatory prayer is not allowed. I would like to remind them that God cannot be taken out of anything by man. If their children have God in their hearts, he is with them even in school where open organized prayer is not allowed. Even if you turn your back on God, he does not turn his to you, he only waits to see if you will again turn to him.

            And, those like Charlie need to understand that it is God who will stand in Judgement in the end days for each individual. It is not given to men to judge who is saved and who is lost.

            I have reached out my hand to Charlie before and he bit it, I will not reach for him again until he asks me to.

          • macgyver1948

            Frank Kahn,,, “I would like to remind them that God cannot be taken out of anything by man”. I would have to agree but God has His Free Will thing and with that He would not impose. If we do not want Him He would not be there by His own volition. After all, He has Free Will too. I remember a sad joke that seems to fit here. It want sonmething like this.

            “A small child asked God after a school shooting why He didn’t stop it. God responded with ‘I was told to leave so how could I help’”. Sad huh?

            I was kind of sad when prayer was eliminated from schools but only if it was silent prayer. No prayer should be preambled by anyone’s version of how it should go, with their religious beliefs, but I believe prayer should be allowed so each student and facility member can do it his/her way, as they choose and even atheist could pray to whoever they believe in, or what (even nothing). I was also sad when prayer, not descriptive and silent, was eliminated from military or government structures. This seems to be a violation of Free Speech at the very least as well as a violation of Freedom of Religion. If we aren’t forcing atheist to pray it shouldn’t bother them.

            You said “And, those like Charlie need to understand that it is God who will stand in Judgement in the end days for each individual. It is not given to men to judge who is saved and who is lost”. Well they, the Charlies, wont but instead they seem to assume, by their actions and words, know better than God and they can do God’s jobs better than He.

            Stop worrying about them and stop extending your hand after they prove they will just “bite your hand off” after a few attempts to be sociable and kind. I could not believe it when I moved to the so-called bible belt and so many so called God-loving people seemed to want to replace God in His jobs. It happens and we have to walk away from them. They aren’t worth a war or a lost hand.

          • Frank Kahn

            I dont think that was a joke. And it had a very wrong premise. If God wanted to intervene in human affairs like that he would not simply watch because someone told him to leave. God never promised us a life without trials and misery, he never said “dont worry, if someone tries to hurt you I’ll prevent it”. Life is life, God didnt give you that promotion and he did not fire you either. There are many things wrong with many people’s ideas and the things churches teach. Most of it comes from the “I know best what God wants” mentality. God wants you to be a good person, to act in a kind and loving manner to all, he wants you to treat everyone the way you want to be treated. Sounds simplistic, but it really is simple.

            As to prayer in school, not sure you will ever get a consensus on that one. I have met many atheists that seem to feel it is their RIGHT to a FREEDOM FROM RELIGION. They feel threatened in some way by hearing the word God. Just no pleasing some people.

          • macgyver1948

            Frank Kahn,,, I very much agree with your first paragraph. God just creates and allows, with Free Will, and not a lot more while we are here. But He does watch.

            As per you second paragraph… I see several parts of the Constitution as a Yin-Yang protection. In that I mean with Freedom Of Religion we also have “Freedom From Religion”. And with Freedom Of Speech we also have “Freedom From Speech”. I do not have to listen to your speech if I do not want to but you have the right to express yourself publicly. To me that means as we have the right to practice our religion as we choose we have the protections from your religion. In other words you cannot tell me my religion is wrong if it differs from your religion. That includes atheism. It is not Liberty or Freedom otherwise. I just do not get how any group, including atheism, can say if they hear other religion’s views they are being violated. Just do not listen. I just will not accept any religious views inflicted into law making because that violates Freemon Of Religion. We need morality in our laws but never any specific religious inflictions. If we allow any religion to inflict their rituals into law there would be religious persecution, or religious rights denials, toward any who aren’t of that that religion and that has made for people sufferings all through history. As a Jew I know that from history and so should every one else.

            For atheist who feel threatened by silent prayer it is BS. If we have silent prayer those who want to (silently) relate to God can. Those who want to pray to their stock broker of Big Bird Can. I feel violated when I am told I cannot have a moment to say hi to God.

          • Frank Kahn

            What you mean by freedom from religion is not what they mean. It is true that freedom of religion gives you the right to whatever belief you decide, including atheism. Some atheists, however, want it to mean freedom from any religious content. They are, in effect, the same as Charlie, nothing is allowed except their belief.

            I dont have any trouble with your idea of leaving religion out of laws, however there are some who think that morality is religion. I give abortion as case in point, to me killing an unborn child is immoral, even murder. Many people mistake that as a religious idea, and say I am just wanting to force my religious beliefs on them. Personally, I think that if you forget the commandments it is still a reasonable idea “You should not KILL”. I will not kill you because I dont want you to kill me. Does it become strictly a rule from God, just because it is mentioned in the Torah?

            Take the 10 Cammandments and see if they are any less reasonable without God.

            Dont kill, lie, steal, mess with someone Else’s wife, honor your parents and love your neighbor. Sounds like good rational ideas to me.

          • macgyver1948

            Frank… Freedom From Religion is the flip side to Freedom Of Religion. It simply means you have the choice either way. I think it would be very difficult to avoid religious content all together but it can rightfully be ignored if one wants to. To an atheist friend I said “Just do not listen if you do not want to no one is making you adhere. But please do not tell me to avoid it or keep me from it if I do not want to avoid it, it is both our choices”.

            Frank, I know some cannot separate morality from religion but there are many who can. There are loads of people who are decent law biding, moral and fair to others and “Golden Rule” keeping and are not part of any religion so it is being done.

            You say “Take the 10 Cammandments and see if they are any less reasonable without God”. All but the first two can be done very morally and no less reasonably without believing in God. Personally I see God in all things so it wont apply to me in that way.

            From your last paragraph “Sounds like good rational ideas to me” to me too and the first two do also to me but then I am not an atheist.

      • Charlie

        Deerinwater,,,
        You made a comment about My comments ,,,you got a Bible bone you want to pick? go for it … Meanwhile… Praise King Jesus for Salvation and Healing… Acts 2:38 is salvation…

        Charlie Freedom

        • Deerinwater

          No Charlie, ~ not really ~ but this~ John The Baptist outspoken, in -your -face approach to conveying Christian teaching did not serve him well and it won’t serve you well either.

          I’m not Jewish, ~ I’ve never been Jewish. ~ How can we take their God and their book add the Gospels to it and believe we are the all knowing and served ourselves and God in the process eludes me. ~

          For one thing ~ Christian want to believe everything in the bible as being true and factual. ~ The Jewish people know better, it’s their book ! They have a better interpretative understanding. Jews know how to tell a great story and they know how to listen to one.

          It’s the Jewish understanding of God and it works well for the Jewish people for many thousands of years. Why this need to borrow a Jewish God, convert him to your God and then confront Jews with your beliefs?

          I think you would be wise to consider your audience and accept your interpretation as just that.

          Myself, I do not subscribe to either viewpoint, ~ while I do share and hold dear to the divine spirit that move in us all without all the gala, pageantry, human scarfice, atonement, repentance and holy water. I lean more to eastern teaching of natural balance ~ nature will balance herself , the better your ability to maintain a spiritual balance, the more powerful in the ( insert your word) you become. ~ It does not require a churches permission, but your willingness to serve man in a way that pleases the Divine.

          The Bible is a primitive text entailing the culture and activities of a primitive people in early Mesopotamia and how they grew to Enlightenment. The Bible is an XXX rated book and not for the timid or weak of self awareness. It’s profound, it bewildering, it’s funny, it’s joyful and it’s sad. It’s to aid you in your search ~ a Jewish book, Ask a Jew if you need help.

          Regardless of what the church might have you believe, these early men of a Jewish God were military leaders. It took a staff working full time to keep their halo’s shinning bright. Much militarism is sort of glossed over in the bible. ~ Like Moses standing on a mountain top, point out Canaan to his Tribe after a 40 years camp out. ~ There it is men,! ~ Canaan~ the land of milk and honey, ~ the Lord has gave it to you. Oh! by the way, ~ there is rumor that large giants live down there ~ so best be careful. I’ll wait here.

          David , sold into slavery by his jealous brothers, ~ That would take a lot of jealousy or a very cold heart. To make your mother cry?? What kind of men would make their mother cry so?

      • Charlie

        Deerinwater,,,
        You are very short on knowledge of basic Bible KJV,,,AND,,,I’, m not a “Diplomat”, so the way I present “Info” may not please many ,,,BUT,,,the “info” cannot be proven wrong because most of the info IS Scripture… I’m not going to spoon feed a bunch of baby heathens that nit pick every dot and dash,,, IF,,,you can’t take Drill Sargeant instructions then you may have a problem with personality clash and/or ego clash…
        IF,,, one DOES NOT have basic “Salvation” per Acts 2:38 OR, other very similar Scripture, then,,,one IS NOT a “Christian” and needs to be told that in no uncertain terms, to comply with Ezekiel 3:18… Notice , most Bible “Prophets” were very much “IN your Face” with critical info… Meanwhile………………
        Praise King Jesus for Salvation and Healing… Acts 2:38 is salvation…

        Charlie Freedom

        • macgyver1948

          Hi Charlie… You say ” Notice , most Bible “Prophets” were very much “IN your Face” with critical info…”. Yes they were and there are things they said, if you are including Hebrew Prophets (I don;t know of others), you would not like.

          Oh. I am very much not a Christian and there is nothing wrong with that. You seem to imply there is.

        • Deerinwater

          The thing is Charlie, you are not a prophet but a smartass with the big head. How you have managed to elevate yourself to this position is anyone’s guess. But I will say this, the people that truly do possess knowledge and wisdom are the last people that feel required to prove it.

          I was raised by a smartass drill instructor that I had to call Father ~ so what have you got for me that I wasn’t raised in from birth you idiot? Do you really believe this A type personality is something alien to the rest of us?

          There is therapeutic value to be found in a good enema if nothing else it would cut your casket size down to a cigar box.

          In the final hours of your darkest days, ~ I sincerely wish you the very best.

        • Frank Kahn

          HEY CHARLIE, DO I HAVE YOUR ATTENTION?

          Since the beginning of our verbal association, I have not once said that the scriptures are wrong, I have said that your interpretation is wrong. I have also pointed out where you are not acting like a true Christian, and at some points you even go against scripture. You fail to even one time prove me wrong, or even attempt to do so. You just keep up with your ad hominem attacks and name calling.

          When I give evidence of you being wrong, you ignore my posts content, from now forward all such behavior will be viewed as you accepting my post as correct.

      • Charlie

        Deerinwater,,,
        Thanks for your dumb ass comment , which proves I am a smart ass… It took years of mistakes on My part and more years to figure out how to correct past mistakes (Sins) because Billy Graham and the Baptist Churches did a very good job of “Brainwashing” Me into “Judea Christianity”, which IS NOT “True” Christianity … The ONLY way to become a “Real” Christian is the way King Jesus Christ AND His Men say to do it in the New Testament of The Almighty God’s Holy Bible…
        The basic ranking Scripture for “Salvation” is Acts 2″38,,, Peter spoke Acts 2:38 and also said 1 Peter 3:21 which says “baptism now saves you”… Read it for yourself I”M not making any interpretations,,,BUT,,, one has to “Harmonize” many Scriptures to come up with Truth, as, Psalm 119:160 tells you…
        Notice , at Acts 2:38 last part “and you will receive the Gift of The Holy Spirit” … one’s “Gift” or gifts come thru their “Personality” as far as I can tell,,,all this is assuming you have accomplished Acts 2:38 in harmony will other Lawful and proper “Scriptures” …
        There is a lot more to Personalities than just type A and B,,, that’s where you come up short again on knowledge of Psychology … Meanwhile I am becoming a smarter ass…
        Praise King Jesus for Salvation and Healing…Acts 2:38 is salvation…

        Charlie Freedom

        • Frank Kahn

          I seem to remember somewhere in the Bible about someone using the jawbone of an ass as a weapon, is that the scripture you are following Charlie?

          Did you miss his statement that you are not a Prophet?

          Did I miss the scripture that says only those that agree with Charlie are true Christians?

          Did I miss the conference call with God where he said that the KJV is the final authority on what he said?

          Can you tell me your interpretation of the Commandment which says love thy neighbor as you would you own brother.

          And when you called me a religious Jew, did you not understand the meaning of not bearing false witness?

          Remember, every time you fail to respond to my assertions, you are agreeing with my statements.

      • Charlie

        Frank Kahn,,,
        Do you think I should consider your words better than the words in The Holy Bible???
        There were no Jews on Planet earth UNTIL after the Judahites established their land and towns… The Old Testament was almost all written before any so called Jews came on the scene … Moses had died on Mount Nebo years before any land area was taken,,,see Deuteronomy 34…
        You have yet to clearly define who or what a “Jew” is in accordance with The Holy Bible.
        When you deny that King Jesus Christ is The Son of God, that makes you one of the anti-Christ ,,,see 1 John 2:22 ,,,and John 8:40–50 spoken by King Jesus Christ tells who the modern day Jews are… So? Meanwhile………………..
        Praise King Jesus for Salvation and Healing… Acts 2:38 is salvation…

        Charlie Freedom

        • Frank Kahn

          I already told you I am not playing your inane game. You answer my questions or stop asking your stupid ones.

      • Charlie

        Frank Kahn, et al,,,
        The answers to most of My questions are right there in The Holy Bible… Remember The
        Bible DOES NOT need you,,, You,,, need IT , so , in your ignorance and stupidity you will suffer as Hosea 4:6 says… The Bible is Correct in contexts ,,,BUT,,, most men are “Brainwashed” and do not know the contexts… Meanwhile…………..
        Praise King Jesus for Salvation and Healing… Acts 2:38 is salvation…

        Charlie Freedom

        • Frank Kahn

          NO, Charlie, what you fail to understand is that I want to hear something from your mind, if that is possible. The fact that the Bible has the answers does not mean that you do.

        • macgyver1948

          Charlie.. The Bibles are a source of inspiration and guidance and lessons at the very least to those who choose them. But for each of us it depends on which Bible we choose to be all that for us. Your mind is so closed, I wonder if you had some sort of major trauma, so you cannot see that one person’s bible is not another person’s bible. Muslims could be as you and say you are a fool for not believing all the Koran says. Your bible, any Christian Bible, is only a source of academic inquiry for me because they are not my Bibles and I do not believe what is in them for the most part. In other words, Charlie, your Christian Bibles are not any more my Bibles than the Koran or Hindu texts or Native American lore are your Bibles. If you weren’t so blindly closed minded you would see that. Your Religion and how you relate to God is NOT for all peoples, just those who choose to see it your way. You CANNOT use your bible scripture along with your interpretations of them as proof of anything to those who do not share your beliefs, that is insane logic.

          Please stop being a damn Nazi about it. I really pity you.

      • Charlie

        Frank Kahn,,,et al,,,
        Any judging I do , will be based and backed up with Scripture KJV, SO, I asked first , so you answer first… Meanwhile……………………..
        Praise King Jesus for Salvation and Healing… Acts 2:38 is salvation…

        Charlie Freedom

        • macgyver1948

          Charlie… You just do not get it, do you? That is why I pity you…

      • Charlie

        Macgyver1948,,,
        Yep, I got The KJV Bible , which is all about The Almighty God and His Son , King Jesus Christ… You got anything better with a 5 to 6 thousand years history to back it up??? Meanwhile……………
        Praise King Jesus for Salvation and Healing… Acts 2:38 is salvation…

        Charlie Freedom

        • macgyver1948

          See Charlie, you go on showing you just do not get it. I know you have the KJV and that is good for you and others who believe that should be their Bible. But it is meaningless to those who do not believe as you. My Bible is the Hebrew Bible and that is good for me and those who believe Torah is the Word Of God. For me my Bible is loads better than what you would have for me. Please get of your Nazi horse and open your mind. I am no asking you to change for you just be respectful of how others believe for them. It gets harder to respect anything about you.

          I am so tired of your kind of hypocritical religious approach and forcing. You truly are Nazi-like in that approach of yours.

      • Charlie

        macgyver1948,,,
        Some one is a liar ,unless ,Truth, can be a lie the same time it’s Truth… SO? where are the lies ? in your bible? or in The Holy Bible KJV?… Could it be that you have been duped,deceived and deluded by the Satanic powers that be ??? Meanwhile……………
        Praise King Jesus for Salvation and Healing… Acts 2:38 is salvation…

        Charlie Freedom

        • Frank Kahn

          If you were capable of extending your reasoning, you would see that the same question can be asked of you and your KJV Bible.

          The world is flat used to be the truth. (determined by the Christian church)

          The Earth is the center of the universe and everything revolves around it (determined by the Christian church)

          Everyone that fails to believe in Jesus as Christ is going to Hell (determined by the Christian church)

          Nobody that is not Baptized will get into Heaven (determined by? Charlie or the Christian church)

          Two of those four FACTS are definitely false by objective proof.

          The other two are SUBJECTIVE FACTS that are only true in the minds of Christians.

          Lets assume that every member of each religion agrees with their own Bible.

          The fact is, that of the major religions, the vast majority of religious people dont believe that Jesus was the son of God.

          • macgyver1948

            Frank… Please read my response to Charlie on this rant of his, the “macgyver1948,,, Some one is a liar ,unless ,Truth, can be a lie the same time it’s Truth… SO? where are the lies ? in your bible? or in The Holy Bible KJV?… “ one. It was fun and I meant every word. HE is something huh, but something to laugh at.

            Your last paragraph “The fact is, that of the major religions, the vast majority of religious people don’t believe that Jesus was the son of God“ is so true but if it weren’t then there were trillions of people, on and on into the future, that were and will be forsaken by God for not believing in the Christian ways. I doubt it very much because God is not the evil one trying to populate hell because His feelings are hurt because his so-called son is not believed. This is an insulting and funny notion to think only their ways are right and all others are wrong if others do not believe as they insist. That would be so for any religion to believe. None of us can prove any Bible, Koran – Torah – New Testament – etc, is right or wrong but it is up to each of us to decide how we want, or not want, to accept God.

            That is one of the many reasons God gave us Free Will and no one has the right to take that away form any of us. For people such as Charlie to insist only his ways are right is as for him to say he knows better than God and he can replace God in His work. Not gonna happen.

          • Frank Kahn

            Oh, on his short tirade about Nazi’s, I did not jump in to explain the obvious to him. I figured you could handle that.

            The answer to his question about that man is YES he is both a NAZI and a SOCIALIST, as well as being antisemitic.

            Not sure where he was going with the definition of Nazi in the past and present, nor do I see his point in asking if we are going by the PROPAGANDA. It is possible that Charlie really is a Nazi, or at least a Nazi sympathizer.

            It is a fact that Hitler viewed the Bible as a historical record in the sense that it contained secrets to new types of military power. But that goes into some extreme scientific areas that are not relevant to your comment. It also does not indicate that Hitler was a Christian. We also know that it is recorded that his mother was Jewish. Interestingly enough, the man he asked about also had Jewish ancestry.

            I still dont understand why Charlie looks down on the Hebrew Bible (Torah) when the Christian Bible is taken from it to a great degree. And, He might like to think about which came first the Torah or the Bible.

            But, anyway, he missed the point of you calling him a Nazi. It was meant as his totalitarian self rule, and we are the best people in the world, aspect that matched Hitler.

          • Deerinwater

            Frank says. “I still dont understand why Charlie looks down on the Hebrew Bible (Torah) when the Christian Bible is taken from it to a great degree. And, He might like to think about which came first the Torah or the Bible.”

            I say; Frank, ~ it’s obsession with a unhealthy dose of personal ego to hide the mouse that lives inside.

            Charles , does not know what he is doing and does not want too know.

            Charles, sees himself as “Defending” ~ This pleases Charlie. That is his purpose, to please himself. He “needs” that.

            Charlie is not a “watch dog” , he is a “guard dog” he attacks , bites and defends. This act of attacking and defending “feeds” him. It could well be a bone, or a fenced yard. In this case, it is the one he calls Master.

            The important thing to know is that ~ there are people out there like this and there is no reaching them and nothing you or I can do about it. Stay clear.

            At some point they will overplay their hand and society with be called on to clean up the mess.

          • macgyver1948

            Deerinwater… You define Charlie pretty well in this comment of yours. He does have need of help, that is for sure. You are also probably right to say “stay away”. He really has nothing to offer and he is very annoying in his inflated misconceived ego. He really showed that more so when I think he implied he was a “modern day prophet”. I enjoy good discussion with people who believe and think differently from me, in religion and in politics, but primarily for academic reasons. The Charlie’s take the fun and air out of all that and he replaces those with frustration, contempt and pity for them.

          • macgyver1948

            Frank… First off I am ok with you jumping in… I would not be surprised if Charlie is either a Nazi or a symp. As far as his being antisemitic I think he is anti human with those who will not see things his way. I think he would be ok with Jews if they were also totally his kind of Christian. That impossibility would be just fine with him. But I see his kind of “if you do not agree totally with me you have to be wrong and your deserve my insults” a lot on this site, religiously and politically. So he fits in with many in his bigoted and ignorant ways.

            I too am not sure where he goes with many of his definitions and rants because he doesn’t say enough much of the time but he does say enough to show how against he is with all of us who wont see all scripture, Hebrew and Christian, his ways.

            You say “It is a fact that Hitler viewed the Bible as a historical record in the sense that it contained secrets to new types of military power. But that goes into some extreme scientific areas that are not relevant to your comment. It also does not indicate that Hitler was a Christian”.

            I think at least one of the Indiana Jones movies was based on Hitler’s interests in the bible. Many of the higher Nazis were Pagan so I wonder what that piece of evil (*_^*&^) was. Yeah I know he was half Jewish and as a child he was picked on by other Austrian kids but that could have also been because he was an spastic kid as well. Fraud would have had a life time of work with that bastard right from his childhood. “Let us zee vy do you hate your yiddisha mama little boy?”.

            I do not think Charlie is interested in the chronology of the two bibles. If he did he might insist the KJV came before the Catholic version and had more relevance even though they are basically the same Bible but with a few Bible stories taken out of the KJV. Somehow he does not see that many of those old cultures, and the Hebrew one for sure, were patriarchal. That means for Jesus to have a blood line back to King David his biological father would have to have a blood line back to King David, not his mortal mother. That is impossible if you are a demi-god and your father is a god. And if Hebrew Prophesy on the Hebrew Messiah is known it would also be known that would eliminate Jesus for being the Hebrew Messiah right from conception. But that too is part of Charlie’s blindness and limited knowledge.. I am often uncomfortable saying that because many Christians could feel insulted and I do not mean it that way. I am going by how the Christian Bibles say Jesus’ conception was immaculate or divine. I got the impression that Charlie was trying to imply he was a “modern day Prophet” He actually used that wording and it felt as though he was saying he had to be right because of it. If that were true he would know the scripture on all this in both Bibles.

            You got it right when you quoted me by saying he is “…a Nazi. It was meant as his totalitarian self rule”, Charlie does make me think of him in that way. “Oh what a tangled web we weave when first we practice evil as we deceive”. Go for it Charlie. LOL… That is a great part of Charlie’s hypocrisy. I hope he is happy he started this with me and perhaps with you too… He is a fraud in many ways…

      • Charlie

        macgyver1948,,,
        What’s a Nazi ? or do you want us to just use WW2 propaganda to figure it out? Does Nazi mean the same today as it did in 1948? Do you know a German named Ernst Zundel ? is he a Nazi ?
        In your brainwashed condition is it possible for you to “Think” Scientifically ? Who created the Law of Gravity ? How much did Adolph Hitler know about The Bible?
        Meanwhile ……………
        Praise King Jesus for Salvation and Healing… Acts 2:38 is salvation…

        Charlie Freedom

        • macgyver1948

          Charlie… As far as I can tell the Nazis of the WW2 era are pretty much the same as Neo-Nazis of today but with subtle difference. They both want to own the world and rule with hate and violence guided by their one-sided thinking, such as you do with your religious fantasies, same manner and attitude anyway.

          I do not know a lot of the German named Ernst Zundel but he is known as a Holocaust denier and is a Neo-Nazi Propagandist. He too is a denier of reality just as you. I read a little about him in the past, how he was wanted and arrested for encouraging riots and denying history and truths. From my notes which came from the Internet: “Zundel’s early writings are a mix of neo-Nazi and white supremacist rhetoric, condemnations of Jews and Zionism, charges that Western media and governments bash Germany and Germans, and Holocaust-denial and conspiracy theory. He was fixated on U.F.O.’s, believing them to be Nazi secret weapons based somewhere in Antarctica. He also promoted a new edition of Henry Ford’s The International Jew in Liberty Bell.[3] An article in the January 1977 issue of White Power Report entitled “Our New Emblem: The Best of Two Worlds” (referring to a design that merged a swastika and the American flag) conveys the tone of Zundel’s work during this time”.

          “As Zundel’s notoriety grew in the 1970’s, he also came to the attention of Canadian officials, who launched several criminal investigations against him. In November 1981, postal authorities suspended Samisdat’s mailing privileges; the government argued that Zundel’s anti-Jewish campaign violated criminal prohibitions against using the mails to incite hatred. While waiting for a review board to hear his appeal, he distributed his materials through a post office box in Niagara Falls, New York. In January 1983, Canada lifted its ban on his mailing privileges and his activities resumed there”. 

          Did I in any way answer your question about Zundel? I could offer you more.

          Adolf Hitler talked about the Bible and he was interested in it but he was redefining it just as you do. He didn’t acknowledge Jesus as a Jew and he felt he deserved to be ruler of the world. Nice of you to bring Hitler up but do you know his history and his Mein Komph? You and he have so much in common with your thinking and attitude. .

          As for your really stupid question. God created all the laws of Physics so gravity is just one of His creations. Are you ever really awake or are you in your LSD-like madness all the time?

      • Charlie

        macgyver1948,,,
        Thanks for you reply , it had some facts ,mostly slander, gossip, saying you believe in The Almighty God but also saying you don’t believe in The Holy Bible of The Almighty God and His Son , King Jesus Christ as written in His Book… Talk about “Oxymoron” , you write them… So it’s OK for the Jews to criminalize a book written by a German that was in Germany during WW2,,,but,,, on the other hand the Jews are friends of God when they say His Book , The Holy Bible has errors in it??? You so called Jews , are subjecting yourself to The Orders of King Jesus Christ at Luke 19:27 ,and,you Jews are the lineage of the people that King Jesus Christ admonished at John 8:39—59….
        Does The Almighty God HATE a group of people??? see God’s hate at Malachi 1:1–5 .
        Malachi is the last book in the OT… These lineage of Esau Edom is going to be wiped out , soon , see the book of Obadiah , between Amos and Jonah … A modern day Prophet ONLY points at “Scripture” He does NOT interpret Scripture, He may give an “Opinion” on harmonizing Scripture BUT does not add to or take away from Scripture…
        Meanwhile… Praise King Jesus for Salvation and Healing,,, Acts 2:38 is salvation…

        Charlie Freedom

        • macgyver1948

          Charlie… So say you which makes it meaningless… You go on missing the point so who cares what you say. Who said “The Holy Bible has errors in it???”? Not me. I am saying your Bible is not my Bible and what I do not get is how you are so dense that you cannot get that. It is so simple. UGGG, you bible for you, me Bible for me…. What is so hard about it? I do not believe in your Bible and I tried by giving you a simple example in saying the Karon is no more your Bible than the New Testament is mine. Or if it is easier for you “your bible is no more my Bible than the Karon is yours”. Why is that so hard for you to comprehend? Is your IQ really lower than that of a handball’s? You inspire insults and disrespect for you because you have no respect for others. Is that how Jesus would advise you?

          We “so-called Jews, as you refer to us, are not subjecting ourselves to any orders by a man we know is not a Hebrew Messiah or a Hebrew king, according to Hebrew scripture. It is for you to believe that, or not, as you see fit but it is not for us to commit mortal sin as you are suggesting we do. Again, as I mentioned before to you, if you want Jesus for your Christian Messiah or Christian King we wouldn’t care.

          As for we Jews criminalizing a book by a man who denies reality and proven history is so much more crazy of you to mention. I had older relatives who came here after WW2 and they, with their tattooed numbers of their forearms, talked about the horrors that you defend his denying. And if you defend the Nazis even by only denying the Holocaust you are defending insane psychotic bastards who very much denied God in their actions of evil. What do you think that makes you?

          You asked “Does The Almighty God HATE a group of people???” I really cannot say because I cannot speak for God as you seem to think you can. But I don’t think God hates people, instead I believe He would not be happy with evil actions committed by people.

          Malachi is the last book of Prophets within the Hebrew Bible, not the last book of The Hebrew Bible. Just again for your 411 we Jews call our Bible the Hebrew Bible and not The Old Testament, that is a Christian renaming of our Bible when they took it for their purposes. There is no New Testament yet for us so there is no Old Testament. And I know where Obadiah is located. I think you take things out of context and rewrite the meanings to suite your purposes but there is nothing new in that for you.

          Are you proclaiming yourself s a “modern day Prophet”? LOL… You have got to be kidding and/or delusional if you are. I do not believe there have been any real prophets since perhaps in King David’s day and that was about 500 years before Jesus. You should read what the Prophet Nathan told King David, there are at least 3 times he told David of God’s messages. You might not like it if you do especially of the third time where Nathan speaks of the Hebrew Messiah and what it will take to recognize him. Nathan is not the first Hebrew Prophet who believed The Hebrew Messiah will be a mortal man and nothing more than that. Now from Whom and where would they get that belief from? Good luck with that. But in the mean time, as you say, try this http://www.simpletoremember.com/articles/a/jewsandjesus/ . There is a lot of interesting stuff in there, none of which you have to believe.

          Here is just a piece of what is on that pagge but please read the entire thing:

          A. MESSIAH AS PROPHET
          Jesus was not a prophet. Prophecy can only exist in Israel when the land is inhabited by a majority of world Jewry. During the time of Ezra (circa 300 BCE), when the majority of Jews refused to move from Babylon to Israel, prophecy ended upon the death of the last prophets—Haggai, Zechariah and Malachi.
          Jesus appeared on the scene approximately 350 years after prophecy had ended.
          B. DESCENDENT OF DAVID
          According to Jewish sources, the Messiah will be born of human parents and possess normal physical attributes like other people. He will not be a demi-god,(1) nor will he possess supernatural qualities.
          The Messiah must be descended on his father’s side from King David (see Genesis 49:10 and Isaiah 11:1). According to the Christian claim that Jesus was the product of a virgin birth, he had no father—and thus could not have possibly fulfilled the messianic requirement of being descended on his father’s side from King David! (2)

          C. TORAH OBSERVANCE
          The Messiah will lead the Jewish people to full Torah observance. The Torah states that all mitzvot (commandments) remain binding forever, and anyone coming to change the Torah is immediately identified as a false prophet. (Deut. 13:1-4)
          Throughout the New Testament, Jesus contradicts the Torah and states that its commandments are no longer applicable. (see John 1:45 and 9:16, Acts 3:22 and 7:37)  For example, John 9:14 records that Jesus made a paste in violation of Shabbat, which caused the Pharisees to say (verse 16), “He does not observe Shabbat!”

          3) MISTRANSLATED VERSES “REFERRING” TO JESUS
          (back)
          Biblical verses can only be understood by studying the original Hebrew text—which reveals many discrepancies in the Christian translation.
          A. VIRGIN BIRTH
          The Christian idea of a virgin birth is derived from the verse in Isaiah 7:14 describing an “alma” as giving birth. The word “alma” has always meant a young woman, but Christian theologians came centuries later and translated it as “virgin.” This accords Jesus’ birth with the first century pagan idea of mortals being impregnated by gods.

          To each his own faith and how we each choose to accept. I wouldn’t begin or think of telling you what to believe or not to believe but for you to do so shows how much you do not believe in Free Will and that says you feel you can do a better job than God at His work.

        • Frank Kahn

          Your soooo funny Charlie, I just had to copy part of your post to show how bad you logic is.

          “saying you believe in The Almighty God but also saying you don’t believe in The Holy Bible of The Almighty God and His Son , King Jesus Christ as written in His Book… Talk about “Oxymoron” , you write them… So it’s OK for the Jews to criminalize a book written by a German that was in Germany during WW2,,,but,,, on the other hand the Jews are friends of God when they say His Book , The Holy Bible has errors in it??? You so called Jews , are subjecting yourself to The Orders of King Jesus Christ at Luke 19:27 ,and,you Jews are the lineage of the people that King Jesus Christ admonished at John 8:39—59″

          Now, to understand just how bad your logic is we first have to define the person to whom you are speaking. Macgyver is a Jew, he does not believe that Jesus is the son of God. He therefor does not believe that any of the things said about or by Jesus in the New Testament is true. Given this, we must eliminate the New Testament from your definition of the Bible. When we do that, he believes the Bible just as much as you do. He defines the Bible (Hebrew Bible / Torah) as the word of God, not the word of God and his son Jesus.

          You say “The Holy Bible of The Almighty God and His Son , King Jesus Christ as written in His Book”. Make up your mind is it His (Gods) book or is it Their (God and Jesus) book. Remember, we are talking about the belief in God here. To Jews the Torah (Hebrew Bible) is the book of God. As you have said before, Man can neither add to nor take away from the word of God. According to his belief, you are adding to the word of God.

          Now to your major logic error. You are attempting to threaten a Jewish man, by saying that Jesus (who he does no believe in) will punish him. You say that Jesus (again not believed in) has condemned him. And to top it all off, you say that Jesus (not real to him as Christ) has admonished all Jews and declared them to all be Edomites.

          On that last one, it might be true (if there was some way to prove true lineage) that some who think they are direct descendants of Judah are descendant from Edom. However, not all Jews are genetic Jews, some are simply religious Jews, and your statement would not cover them.

          • macgyver1948

            Frank… Thank you for you words to Charlie. I have to clarify a bit. It is not that we Jews do not believe anything that Jesus says, much of what he said, according to the Christian Bibles, makes a lot of sense but HOW it was phrased to believe, in many cases, when it looks like he was talking about himself is not what we can sometime believe.

            For example, where ever Jesus says something such as, my paraphrasing, “Only through me can you go to heaven”. He was a rabbi and he knew that would be a sin for anyone to say that about themselves. One of the things rabbis, Catholic priests, Protestant ministers, Muslim Imams, etc have in common is that they all quote their respective scriptures. We Jews might believe Jesus was quoting Torah since the primary function of a rabbi is to teach and recite Torah. That was told to Moses to do and to pass along by God.

            Below is something I shared from the Christian Bibles with Charlie but he chose to ignore it. We do not believe Torah was ever fulfilled (that is primarily because of our faith but also because nothing has changed nearly enough for Man since Jesus. Man still has disease and wars and other disasters and bigotry) and it will not be fulfilled for us until God Himself says so. We do not believe in what Paul/Saul said he was told by a spirit of Jesus during his walk on the road to Damascus. We cannot and there is no proof of it except for Paul’s/Saul’s word. Besides Paul was highly insulting to the Jewish faith and in effect he was trying to eliminate Judaism with those scriptures pertaining to what the spirit of Jesus told him, according to him. And considering what Paul/Saul said, to eliminate Torah would be like saying NO to God by Jews and we wont.

            I asked Charlie some questions but he wouldn’t answer. If what Jesus says, below, is true, does either or both Heaven and Earth still exist today? One of them, either the living Rabbi Jesus or Paul/Saul was lying. Who could that be? It cannot be had both ways. Considering how Christians believe Jesus was sent by God and is more than human and could know the future how could it be he who is lying and not Paul/Saul for Christians? This we do not believe but read what is from the Christian Bible below.

            (In Matthew 5:17, Jesus said, “Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy the law, but to fulfill. For verily I say unto you, Til heaven and earth pass, one dot or one tittle shall in no way pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.”) and Luke 16:17, “It is easier for heaven and earth to pass away, than for one dot of the Law to become void”).

            No one has to believe as any religions says if they did not choose to believe in that religion.

            I think it is a waste of time to be logical with people like Charlie. He doesn’t use logic and he tries to substitute it by forcing his hateful ways of shoving his beliefs on others. It is not working. I believe my linage goes back to Levi but how can I prove it since I can only go back as far as several generations. It is faith and that is something the Charlie’s of the world will not accept unless you accept only their ways.

          • Deerinwater

            This bible quote , “In Matthew 5:17, Jesus said, “Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy the law, but to fulfill. For verily I say unto you, Til heaven and earth pass, one dot or one tittle shall in no way pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.”)

            Christian believe that in this passage Jesus is proclaiming to be the foretold. They accept it as such. And of course this statement and many more claims along this same line proved to be his demise. ~ While Jesus was keenly aware that in the end he would lose his life in the process.

            That is the way most all Christian accept these word.

            didn’t mean to butt in.

          • macgyver1948

            Deerinwater… … Yes I understand that Christians believe Jesus is saying he is replacing Torah, I included that and respect that belief. And I think Paul/Saul is trying to add to that. But as a rabbi he would know replacing what God does is a sin and he wouldn’t do that. As Jews we cannot believe it that way. Those NT scriptures I included are ambiguous at best when it comes to what he meant and we have to go by how we believe just as Christians do as they see it. To eliminate Torah for Jews is to both eliminate Judaism for us and also to say NO to God. We cannot do either.

            Let’s consider something through history… As you know Jews have been persecuted throughout their history (yes I know we are not the only ones) and it has been severe for us at times from before Roman times through the Hitler years as well as all through European history.

            Now many of us kept Torah close through all that and there are some who believe Judaism survived primarily because of Torah as the direct word of God. So, Torah is very much alive and well for us to this day. To us it is not fulfilled and will not be until God Himself says so. Torah came from Him and no one is equal to Him so no one can eliminate it or edit it in any way. That is how we Jews might see those scriptures I included – Matthew 5:17 and Luke 16:17. And think about it when he says “Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets…” considering the prophets who spoke of the Hebrew Messiah believed the Hebrew Messiah would be all mortal with two biological parents. Where would they get that from if not God Himself? This is one why we cannot see Jesus as a replacement for Torah.

            Another piece of belief for us from the Golden Calf Story. When Moses was up on the mountain and God was carving out the Ten Commandants, a small but very important part of Torah, God turned very angry because of what the Israelites were doing with that damming calf below. One of the main reasons God was so angry was because the Israelites were praying to something that wasn’t He, as well as for the nasty parties. Take a look at the first 2 Commandments.

            Now when Moses returned to the mountain top after destroying the first set of tablets God was still furious and He told Moses He was going to kill them all (the mortal sin punishment for praying to what is not of any kind God Himself) and continue His quest for a worthy people who will accept ALL of His Laws and the 10 Commandants are just the first 10. God wanted ALL and not just the ones people would approve.

            God simmered down after Moses pleaded with Him not to kill the people. The Jews of that golden calf generation went on to be punished in their 40 year aimless walk so the guilty generation would die out and not enter the Promised Land but that walk is another story and set of lessons. What would all this tell you if you were a faithful Jew then and now? Remember, Jesus as a rabbi would be teaching these lessons because that is the primary job of a rabbi, to teach and explain Torah so It can be passed on and on. This is one reason why we have to accept and respect other peoples beliefs for them. It is the only chance we have to eliminate bigotry and prejudices, we accept and respect.

            Deerinwater, do not worry about butting in, I look forward to other’s views and comments which is why I started coming to this site. I never need to be agreed with. Just so it is done in an adult manner without insult and or with childishness.

          • Deerinwater

            Yes macgyver1948, ~ I remember the story well, as Every part of Moses’s life is covered extensively in our early Christian bible schools starting at 5 years of age and up. In the beginning, it’s the impressionable aspects , ~The hunted baby Moses, The Passover Angle, Moses on the Lam, Moses the Castaway, Moses the Sailor, Moses the refuge , Moses solicit for asylum to the Queen mother personally with his boyish good charm. Moses the Prince of Belaire, the forming years. on and on, parting of the Red Sea. Manna from heaven. Face to Face with God, etc

            Moses is well thought of and covered pretty well by 10 years of age. ~ of course that is with the Christian spin of course. As the children age, the lesson study becomes more complex and this continues all their lives, ~ as my Mother is 83 has her bible open and reads everyday. I don’t talk to her too often about such things anymore as it’s like pulling a rent in a sweater, ~ as the pulling on a single loose thread will start the complete disassemble of the sweater and hours with pass with great redundancy. But she does love telling it so! Only when I have the time and sometime I have to just make the time. Any conversation with my mother will eventually go back to the discovery of fire, leaving you in total dismay as to how time can pass so and have you looking for an exit ramp.

            I took the liberty of looking up the “foretelling” of the Messiah . I hope there is more then what I found as it appears some what weak in nature. For Christ to be accepted by the Jews in a time before mass communication or printed material would require a significant roll-out campaign above and beyond the efforts of the early prophets Isaiah, Micah and Ezekiel . To this end, John the Baptist was a key part of the “Roll-Out” of the foretold.

            Much like Charlie, John managed to lose his head in the process. To what degree John the Baptist truly served the Rabbi Jesus into this transformation to the “foretold” is debatable I suppose, if Charlie is to serve us as any clue , ~ I would suspect that he was a polarizing factor and one would believe or they wouldn’t . After all , who wants to get wet when it’s not 1st Friday bath day?

            Jesus certainly could have used a better roll-out but if you follow the story line Jesus shown no intention of living thu his sell-out crowd in Jerusalem. Which troubles me.

            Maybe coming off a great show with the Sermon on the Mount, his Wood Stock, he hoped for good reviews with the Jerusalem event? But that is not the way the script reads. It’s like he expected a hostile press and bad reviews.

            http://kingofages.com/2010/10/29/the-messiah-in-the-old-testament/

          • macgyver1948

            Deerinwater… Thank you for the link you included. I know of those passages. None of them specifically point to the person who became known as Jesus Christ but rather to a human who will be chosen by God in God’s timing. There is nothing in The Hebrew Bible that does.

            Let’s consider the below for a moment, concerning the word “Virgin”, as it was relevant to Isaiah and Jews in general who spoke Hebrew. Some of what I include is from http://www.simpletoremember.com/articles/a/jewsandjesus/ and every place else on these issues, including how it is refereed to in the Hebrew Bible.

            He shall be born of a Virgin** – Isaiah 7:14
            Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign. Behold the virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

            A. VIRGIN BIRTH
            The Christian idea of a virgin birth is derived from the verse in Isaiah 7:14 describing an “alma” as giving birth. The word “alma” has always meant a young woman, but Christian theologians came centuries later and translated it as “virgin.” This accords Jesus’ birth with the first century pagan idea of mortals being impregnated by gods (thus the demi-god thing which we Jews do not believe ever really existed- I added this).

            Also we can see this how the Prophets saw with:

            B. DESCENDENT OF DAVID
            According to Jewish sources, the Messiah will be born of human parents and possess normal physical attributes like other people. He will not be a demi-god,(1) nor will he possess supernatural qualities.
            The Messiah must be descended on his father’s side from King David (see Genesis 49:10 and Isaiah 11:1). According to the Christian claim that Jesus was the product of a virgin birth, he had no father—and thus could not have possibly fulfilled the messianic requirement of being descended on his father’s side from King David! (2)

            Deerinwater, there are many more but it is shows how the Hebrew Bible explains the coming of the Hebrew Messiah by way of the Hebrew Prophets. What and who else would be a better source than the Hebrew Bible for Jews and then to have it as the Hebrew Prophets explained? After all, The Hebrew Prophets got all their “prophecies” from God Himself other wise they would not really be Prophets. This is what we go by and how it is all explained to us since, as we believe, God taught Moses and that includes how I believe the Rabbi Jesus taught.

            It gets sticky when we go to other religions who seem to have a need to explain their ways and beliefs so I can understand why they changed the meanings and definitions of Hebrew scripture for themselves. It is why we have to accept and respect how all religions do their thing(s) or there will always be fighting between the religions and even the denominations. We need to let it go how others believe and just be concerned with how we each choose to believe for ourselves. The are personal levels of Jihad for any who will want to not allow for others and I think that needs to stop. I believe God is not happy with how those who accept Him are infighting (infighting within the humans He created and have chosen Him).

            I do not understand the baptism process Jesus is said to have gone through because we Jews cannot be baptized, either baby or adult baptism but I accept it for those who do.

          • Deerinwater

            macgyver1948 say ; I do not understand the baptism process Jesus is said to have gone through because we Jews cannot be baptized, either baby or adult baptism but I accept it for those who do.”

            I say; ” well, I don’t either and that is exactly why I have never been baptized to my mother’s great disappointment.

            I’ll do anything for her, ~ but this has been a hard thing to swallow for me. ~

            I will share with you what “I think” that I know about Christian Baptism.

            First off , the protestant faith is somewhat divided on the reasons for baptism themselves.

            They seem to all agree that it’s a rebirth into Christ. It’s a public testimony of accepting Christ into your life. You have publicly accepted the Lord Jesus Christ as the Holy Ghost and your OWN personal Savior. They might say things like you have been “Washed in the Blood”,~ sounds gross ~ but they say it so often I don’t think that they give it a second thought. Of course they are referring to the blood of Christ as they wish to claim that he’s death were for “our sins” (the sins of the worlds peoples) ~ I know, ~ that maybe that sounds a bit strange to you as it always did to me. ~ but none less ,that is the way in which the crucifixion of Christ is presented by the Christian faith. ~ His dead and resurrection is seen as a rebirth for all mankind and this same Jew God is not just for Jews anymore but the One God and God to all men. ( or at least, that’s the way that I understand it presented)

            To accept baptism requires the asking of repentance! a confession of sins, ~ I ‘m not sure about this but I don’t believe an itemized list of sins is required, ~ but just admit that you have been a rascal and your new life in Christ is to help guide you from this moment forward.

            This act of baptism is to wash away, remove and make clean of all past transgressions.

            On occasions , I’ve known of people being Baptized more than once. ~ People go thu troubling times in their lives and just like the renewing of wedding vows between man and woman, so too will they renew their vows in Christ.

            Some affiliation’s require baptism as a condition of church membership while some do not.

            Some require total and complete submersion in water, while some, just few drops will do to preform a baptism.

            The Baptist and Church of Christ will soak you 100 % and you can expect to stay under one or two seconds. If you can imagine what someone like Charlie might do too you if he had his way ~ He would make sure that you had a Religious “experience” from it.

            Anyway, ~ there is more detail ~ but if I missed something someone feels as important ~ let us allow them to break in and share their views. I’m certainly not overly qualified , but only sharing my inside experiences of 14 intense years of attempting to be the Good Son and do what was asked of me until I couldn’t anymore.

            I was not aware that Jews could not be baptized. ~ maybe I am Jewish?

            Now that this has been presented, ~ it would be interesting to go back and attempt to understand the nature of the baptisms that John the Baptist preformed. ~as Christ was not yet dead. ~ Chances are we might find the reasons for this slight division among Protestants about baptism.

          • Frank Kahn

            If you leave out the original meaning of baptize (to clean), there is another question. If Christians believe that baptism is a part of accepting Jesus as savior, who was Jesus being baptized into accepting?

          • macgyver1948

            Frank… The word “Kosher” simply means “to make clean” but it has its steps according to what we are cleansing. Whether we leave out the cleansing part or not, in reference to your question here “If Christians believe that baptism is a part of accepting Jesus as savior, who was Jesus being baptized into accepting?”, I have to wonder too. For me there is conflict while Jesus was alive between the Rabbi Jesus and the Savior Jesus.

          • macgyver1948

            Deerinwater… I read an account years ago of one Jewish scholar who said he was sort of grateful for Jesus because “Jesus, and his followers, brought God to the attention of the world better than most people before him” and we believe God is for everyone as they choose or not. I myself do not believe God is only for Jews, He is for all who choose him. But we each have to decide how we want to relate to God and no one has the right to tell us how, just to be guided if we choose that type of guidance, meaning what religion or denomination.

            There is a major premise in Judaism where we can relate to God in only direct ways. To us He has no intermediaries and we cannot have those, just helpers such as the word “disciples” is defined in the dictionaries and explainers/teachers such as rabbis and priests and ministers. Only God Himself can forgive sins or forgive our actions so Baptisms assumes taking over for God and that is forbidden for Jews. We know from The Golden Calf story that baby baptisms are more than not necessary because God is saying in that story we are NOT born with sin. I can explain that with some of what God says to Moses if you want. And if those who have reached the age of responsibility want forgiveness they have to go directly to God in prayer for that. No one except God can forgive or offer salvation – NO ONE. You mention that some denominations require Baptisms as a requirement for membership and some do not. Who in that, as well as many other differences of beliefs between then, is right and or wrong since the differences do exist?

            You said you were not aware that Jews cannot be Baptized. Well, if you are Jewish maybe you would have to know and want that. That too is totally up to you. Do you remember when Mormons were found to be sneaking into mortuaries and grave sites and performing forced Baptisms on dead Jews? Romney admitted to being one of those Mormons at times but there were several occasion where that was done by different Mormons. Anyway, to us those are the acts of mortal sinning by those who did them and also a violation of Freedom Of Religion in America. That was one of the many reasons I could not vote for Romney.

            We see the eating of Jesus’ flesh and the drinking of his blood as a Pagan ritual and we cannot do that either. So would the “Washed in the Blood” rituals be and I bet some people who aren’t Jewish might say the covenant God made with Abraham, circumcision, is barbaric too. I wouldn’t make laws for those Christian rituals to be outlawed so I would defend circumcision along with the Seventh Day Sabbath and others as well. This is why we cannot have any specific religion influencing law making in our country. If we did the most powerful and influencing denominations would pressure our representatives and those who aren’t of those religions or denominations would suffer for it, history has shown that.

            Just a personal thought. If Jesus came here to get our sins forgiven why has not the world improved since his coming? We still have wars and famine and disease and greed and disasters and sins of all kind, Earth always has. We Jews do not see any kind of Hebrew Messiah as having “already” come so we wait until God sends him in His time. The deeds described by the Hebrew Prophets to prove who the Hebrew Messiah “is” have not been accomplished by anyone so there are other reasons for us not to accept Jesus; there are many others and I have touched on them in past comments here. Why and what is the purpose of John the Baptist in the NT will always remain a mystery to me.

          • Deerinwater

            macgyver1948 says;

            “Deerinwater… I read an account years ago of one Jewish scholar who said he was sort of grateful for Jesus because “Jesus, and his followers, brought God to the attention of the world better than most people before him” and we believe God is for everyone as they choose or not. I myself do not believe God is only for Jews, He is for all who choose him. ”

            I say, since ~ The CIA World Factbook gives the world population as 7,021,836,029 (July 2012 est.) and the distribution of religions as Christian 33.35% (of which Roman Catholic 16.83%, Protestant 6.08%, Orthodox 4.03%, Anglican 1.26%), Muslim 22.43%, Hindu 13.78%, Buddhist 7.13%, Sikh 0.36%, Jewish 0.21%, Baha’i 0.11%, other religions 11.17%, non-religious 9.42%, atheists 2.04% (2009 est.) you don’t have to be a Jewish scholar to come to this conclusion.

            For better or worse the life of Jesus Christ has made a huge impact on the world. ~ It is the single greatest story that the Jewish community have crafted to date. While you seeming to suggest that maybe Jews had little to do with it. LOL! ~

            It’s almost like the Jewish God story has been hyjacked and in a way, ~ perhaps it has, but who would be the hyjackers? Jesus ‘s disciples and believers ? Were they not Jews as well?

            Bearing in mind, ~ I have no ax to grind. ~ My understand of God does not incorporate the humanizing of God. Human thoughts of love , hate, passions or good and bad are not element that I attach to God, ~ Thinking that any God that possessed the power to create “everything” would be an “Equal Opportunity God” ~ making one people better than the others has no logic , rhyme or reason to it. Man is just one of many life forms, what separates us all is small ~while attempting to compare the spirit of a tree with the spirit of man on some level is a silly thing to do.

            Bearing in mind, while the early Jews were forming their beliefs of the Divine, ~ other cultures in distant places were doing much the same thing. That the Jewish story has managed to survive the long passage of time is a testament to the Jewish people and their God. I hold the Jewish people in high regard for their ability to stick together as a nation of people. Keeping a close family together ~ is forever a daunting challenge.

            If you combine the world population of 21% Jews and 33.35 % Christian. ~ That is 54.35% of the world population subscribing to Jewish accounting of the Divine.

            When you look at it that why, ~ it is an impressive story in itself.

          • macgyver1948

            Deerinwater… You say “It’s almost like the Jewish God story has been hyjacked and in a way, ~ perhaps it has, but who would be the hyjackers? Jesus ‘s disciples and believers ? Were they not Jews as well?”.

            Although the followers of Jesus, before crucification, were Jews they were just a hand full, he did not have a large following then. It is not a “Jewish Community story”, it was a Jesus story. Most Jews since then do not even talk about Jesus in conversation and they do not even reference his book, the New Testament. It truly is a Christian story but who really created it as it is known in its many forms? Is it as Jesus told his story while he was alive or is it more as Paul defined it after the crucification or did the Romans have a lot to do with how Christianity developed according to history? It is all academic at this point and it would depend on what one chooses to believe.

            Maybe it really shouldn’t matter to those who choose the type of Christianity they feel comfortable with and show how they feel about God through that “type”. All that really matters is how we each choose to relate to God, or not, because God gave us all Free Will and that is what is the important thing. If it doesn’t come freely within us it is all bogus. People should never chastise others for choosing differently and more so since there are Constitutions, such as ours, which show within them Freedom Of Religion (or Freedom Of Choice without even suggesting which religion or denomination is preferred). Why do so many people feel they know better that both God and, now, our Constitution?

            I agree with you when you say “My understand of God does not incorporate the humanizing of God”. But some people choose to with things like paintings of Him as though God sat for a portrait. No one who has walked this planet can look like God but many have given that “family” resemblance. A former step-son of mine once told me Jesus looks like his “Father”, God, and he was 38 at the time. I believe we have to know and express the differences between God and us or we lose site of what is between us.

            There are people who have said things like “there is nothing wrong with portraying God to look as we do and that includes same color and race”. I wonder if that separates with prejudice us from God as well as divides us as people. ‘If we look like God then we are better than other people’. God is spirit so how can we look like Him?

            A lot of what has helped the Jewish people hold together, as well as keep their faith in God, is Torah especially when we consider all the bigotries from many cultures toward us over the years. This is why Torah is always alive and well for us. And in Torah there is hope from God since we believe He personally wrote it. I guess we are asking that we be allowed to see God in our ways just as Christians see Him in their respective ways. Everyone’s rights must be equal or there is no Liberty.

            Yes, assuming your percentage of 54.35% of the world population believing in God is correct, it is impressive. That was my point for bringing up the Jewish scholar as well as express my feelings on it..

      • Charlie

        macgyver1948,,,
        More of the same lies , are you insane ? The OT and NT of The Holy Bible are correct as written in the KJV… Psalm 14 applies to you,,, as for the German people in general they are far less sinful than the Lineage of Esau Edom … Was Henry Ford a German ?
        You are debating with The Holy Bible , all I’m saying is The Holy Bible KJV is correct as written and you cannot prove any part wrong ,,,BUT,,, The Bible will prove itself out in the next few years or even months … Meanwhile………….
        Praise King Jesus for Salvation and Healing… Acts 2:38 is salvation…

        Charlie Freedom

        • macgyver1948

          Charlie… I should give up on you because of your ignorance and your massive bigotry. And what does the German people have to do with “the Lineage of Esau Edom”? You just grab at anything even the totally irrelevant to show something about the points you make, whatever those points are. You do not know the Hebrew Bible as it was meant when it was given to us and you are sounding more irrelevant the more you try to interpret it.

          So you do not want to accept that web site’s views on how Hebrew people, Jewish people, view the Hebrew Messiah. It is a fairly common Jewish acceptance of things and it is talking about the known history ad well as Hebrew Prophecy. If you refuse to allow our rights in how we believe and accept God why should we accept and believe anything you say? There is no reason to respect you because you are one unholy disrespectful pig. I do not mean to insult the species of pigs here but it might look that way. You are so very irrelevant in how you disallow others their rights to how they believe. And, if you claim you are a modern day Prophet you are that much more a fraud.

          Questions. What century was the KJV put together and published? How many years after Jesus was that? How many years after the Catholic Bible, the first sanctioned Christian Bible, was the KJV published? They are basically the same Bible with some bible books removed and some other incidental adjustments in KJV but essentially they are they same stories and Bible. I am not sure but are you saying the KJV is more relevant to Christians than the Catholic Bible is?

          What does Henry Ford have to do with any of this? See, more irrelevance on your part from the irrelevant person that is you. Oh Charlie the Irrelevant. You should go to that site again, if you did before, and maybe you would learn something about the Jewish people. I am not saying you will change your beliefs but at least you will know some of the truth as we have seen it for thousands of years and you will see why we cannot accept Jesus.

          Are you also a coward by not reading what is there, are you afraid your beliefs are not strong enough? I am not a proselytizer so changing one’s beliefs is not ever my mission for anyone. I believe trying to recruit or convert someone who I know is happy with their beliefs is insulting and disrespectful to them so I wont. I will leave that to frauds such as you to be insulting and disrespectful. There is nothing wrong with learning about different people. Come on Charlie, are you afraid it will change what might be your weak beliefs? I have read from the Koran and it doesn’t change my Jewish beliefs just like the Christians Bibles haven’t when I read them. I told you I read both the Catholic and the KJV and that is how I know they are basically the same. http://www.simpletoremember.com/articles/a/jewsandjesus/

          Please change “Charlie Freedom” to “Charlie the Fraud”, it is you. It is so much hypocrisy to do what you do.

      • Charlie

        macgyver1948,,,
        The German people are NOT from the lineage of Esau Edom,,,but,,,in Light of Matthew 24: 24–26 it read as you are into Jewish Gnosticism but very short on knowledge of The Truth , see 2 Timothy 3:7… On the other hand maybe you just love to lie as King Jesus Christ pointed out at John 8:44…
        Since King Jesus Christ is The Anointed One from The Almighty God and has already appeared on Earth and The NT is all about that arrival and purpose ,,,.when is your Messiah going to show up and where ??? Meanwhile get some knowledge in your Gnosticism , and………..
        Praise King Jesus for Salvation and Healing… Acts 2:38 is salvation…

        Charlie Freedom

        • macgyver1948

          Charlie… Time with you is wasted because you do not understand anything about people so how can you represent your King Jesus to people? Again, you are a fraud…

          Tell me Charlie, who was he anointed by? Not by any Hebrews with the authority to do the anointing so he was never a Hebrew king. He did not fulfill any of the Hebrew prophecies to be looked as the Hebrew Messiah, as with the so many of the false Messiahs, so how can I believe anything you say? I am so happy you believe he was chosen by God but we Jews do not believe he was. If you understood the Hebrew Bible as you try to come across, but continue to prove you know NOTHING of it, you would understand that.

          Crawl back into your hole and stay there.

          • Frank Kahn

            Do you think he will ever get it?

          • macgyver1948

            Frank… With how demented and diffusional he is, and his apparent desire to remain those ways I am not sure if he ever will be able to get it.

          • Frank Kahn

            Im not sure what his question about Henry Ford was supposed to prove, but his lineage traces back to Irish, English and Belgian descent. While I understand that Belgium is eastern Europe, it is not Germany or even Austria, so where would German come from.

            In earlier communications with him I mentioned that I was actually of Jewish decent, making me a genetic Jew from the tribe of Judah. He quickly jumped on me, calling me a descendant of Esau, Edom. I dont have the slightest idea how he jumped to that conclusion, but now he says that Germans are not descendant from Edom, I wonder what excuse he will use for calling me an Edomite when he learns that my Grandfather was a German Jew. By his logic, that would make me a true Jew.

            Of course, you do realize that he will now claim that Hitler (an Austrian Jew) was cleansing the world of the Edomites (false Jews) in the Holocaust. Assuming that he even admits that there was a Holocaust.

          • macgyver1948

            Frank… When I read his Henry Ford question I immediately went “huh, how does that apply?”. But that is Charlie, just throwing stuff in maybe to distract.

            So he corrected you on your lineage as you stated it, did he? That is him too since, in his mind, he knows better about other people than those people, even people he does not know. There is a woman on this site who does that too and she also destroys her credibility when she does it. This is how people like him “jump to that conclusion” or any conclusion when the have no clue. They tell you you are wrong so they can be right about you and show how wrong you are. Well, this is what I have picked up over the years dealing with people like them.

            There is so much proof and personal testimonies that the Holocaust is a fact it should not matter if people try to deny it, they destroy their own credibility when they do. But it might matter if their reality denials of it can lead to the forgetting of it so it could happen again to any people and not just Jews.

            By the way, besides my older relatives with tattooed numbers on their arms telling me of their personal experiences in the concentrations camps I had some of my another kind of experiences for myself. While I was in the Air Force, in the late 1960s, and stationed in Germany for a while I traveled around as many do to see the host country. Because dog tags include the religion of the wearer some of the older Germans I met and saw my dog tags were so apologetic. They would say they knew the truth and they were so ashamed that it happened by way of their government. So when I hear people deny the Holocaust I just see past them and move on. Also, my uncle was in the Army during WW2 and he was with a group of troops who entered into a concentration camps and the human remains they saw, along with the environment, was was more proof. Charlie can be Charlie all he wants, or not want, concerning this issue.

          • Frank Kahn

            Apparently you are a little older than me, I did my time in the Air Force in the early 70′s. My only overseas was to Guam, not a great place to visit, and touring it didnt take long. I did, however, do a term of service in the Army in the early 80′s, during that time I was stationed in Italy, about 40 miles west of Venice. While stationed there, I attended PLD course in southern Germany, even got to do field training in that dark forest they have. Not much time to sight see during that temporary assignment but got to sample some of the local cuisine off base a couple times.

            Actually, as you probably know, Germany has a very strict set of laws concerning the Holocaust. Denying it and promoting Nazi or Neo-Nazi hatred of Jews is a major crime. Most decent Germans are very sorry for the atrocities perpetrated by their countries government during WWII. I, sometimes, wish citizens in this country were more aware of and ashamed for the numerous war crimes perpetrated by this country, at least one of which happened in Germany.

          • macgyver1948

            Frank… I was in from ’66 to ’70 and I had some nice tours. I was permanently stationed in North Carolina but did a fair amount of TDY. Germany as I said and England and Japan, at least 3 months in each and even Korea when the US Pueblo was taken, spent a week there. And some TDY to Nam from Japan. There were some short time visits too, as to the Azores and twice to Goose Bay Labrador so I had fun along with the not so fun. The best thing I got out of being in was an education while in and after.

            German has some very strict and protective laws. I know Walmart had to leave Germany because they have laws that are too protective of their workers and their shoppers and Walmart couldn’t take it, LOL. But as you say Germany has some laws against what their government did before and during WW2. The embarrassment of what Hitler and his thugs did caused the German people to demand those newer laws.

            I agree with you when you say you hope this country should have some more laws like those in Germany because of how this country conducted itself at times during WW2 and since. For example when a ship loaded with escaping Jews from Europe during WW2 tried landing in New York City (after being turned down in Cuba where some German officials deliberately set up) they were turned away because there were some here who didn’t want to piss Hitler off (as if we should keep Hitler happy). They had to go back to Europe and they didn’t live very long after that. Those American industrialists and big corporations here who pressured their Congressmen to refuse their entry into our country knew it would be the end of them but their money making connections with Hitler was so much more important. Unfortunately there are those kinds of American big businessmen here today who would do these kinds of things still as well as US politicians who would support them. Greed Over People; aren’t those funny initials…?

          • Frank Kahn

            You may or may not have noticed that I never step in when you make political comments. Your slur towards the Republicans cannot be allowed to slide this time. One might also say that Do Not Compromise has interesting initials. You have the right to your opinion in politics, I just dont like to hear anyone blaming one side for everything. The Democrats are just as bad as the GOP. In fact, if you check the records, you will find that most of the legislation that has destroyed our economic base was bipartisan. Most of the public speeches were just so much phoney sabre rattling.

          • macgyver1948

            Frank… I realize I can come across to strongly at times and I apologize for that. I do realize the blame has to be shared between both political parties. I just see more of the blame can go to the one party who shows more about being in business, almost exclusively, for the benefit and protection of Big Corporations than the other. In other words, they are both doing that but one more so than the other. Again I apologize if I gave impressions that the Dems are blameless, they very very much are not. When I express myself it is just that, opinion, when I do not add facts.

      • Charlie

        macgyver1948,,,
        My copy of the NASB says John the baptist , cousin , of King Jesus Christ, baptized King Jesus and a voice from Heaven said He was pleased and Jesus was His Son… See Matthew 3:17… Read it for your self , I, did not write it… John the Baptist was not a Jew, so can I believe him ??? John and Jesus are both mentioned in the OT , is that Scripture in your Bible??? Meanwhile……………..
        Praise King Jesus for Salvation and Healing… Acts 2:38 is salvation…

        Charlie Freedom

        • macgyver1948

          Oh Charlie… I have read those things in the NT and I get it, it is you who does no get that your NT is not my Bible to be believed by me and Jews. Ok, where in the Hebrew Bible does it use the actual names of your King Jesus and/or John the Baptist? My current home state is Missouri so “SHOW ME”.

          I know you didn’t write any of the NT so why are you feeling the need to say you didn’t? Are you over 2000 years old for me to consider that you could have written any of it? LOL.

          You asked me “John the Baptist was not a Jew, so can I believe him ???”. What does this question mean when both Jews and Christians have lied and can any time they want to? Gee, I thought John the Baptist was a Jew (you say – “My copy of the NASB says John the baptist , cousin, of King Jesus Christ”) since he was Jesus’ cousin but I could have been wrong about that. I know Jews should know that Baptism, of any kind, is very taboo for us.

          Can you believe John the Baptist, as you ask? Well, it is your right to believe or not believe him as you choose and it is not my right to tell you which way to go on that or anything else you choose. Why are you not understanding that God given right for others as you do for yourself?

      • Charlie

        macgyver1948,,,
        Watch for Obadiah,,,yeah, it may be in your Bible… When it happen, it will expose just who the anti-Christs are… Meanwhile…………………..
        Praise King Jesus for Salvation and Healing… Acts 2:38 is salvation…

        Charlie Freedom

        • macgyver1948

          Charlie… I am confused with your suggestion of Obadiah, I just read through it after reading your message, as it relates to your Anti-Christ. Jesus of your Bible is no where in our bible so there is no anti-Christ if that entity is the opposite of your Jesus.

          Obadiah, in its 21 paragraphs, talks about an ambassador and thiefs and the house of Jacob bit no Christ or Anti.

          The last paragraph says “21: And saviours shall come up on mount Zion to judge the mount of Esau; and the kingdom shall be the LORD’S“. Here Obadiah is mentioning “saviours” but who are THEY? We cannot make any mistake by assuming and there is no Anti-Christ mentioned by this Prophet Obadiah throughout. I will not assume among the “saviours” is your Jesus. There are just way to many reasons not to and none to suggest it is Jesus with them. Again, there is no Jesus born of Mary at all mentioned in the Hebrew Bible.

          So, as I said in my first paragraph above “I am confused with your suggestion of Obadiah as it relates to your Anti-Christ”. But Anti good-people are all over the place, then and now.

      • Charlie

        macgyver1948,,,
        It is no wonder that you are confused,,, you and others are picking and nitpicking on what you “Want” to call “Truth”… Psalm 119:160, tells you what truth is , Psalm 119:160 is The equation for “Trurh” “”"Truth = the sum of God’s words”"”… The Whole Holy Bible is a History Book, of what The Almighty God has been doing with His Creation on Planet Earth since the beginning of Earth “Time”… King Jesus Christ was in Heaven at The beginning of Earth “Time”,,, God, The Father, sent John the Baptist and King Jesus Christ to Earth for their part in The “Salvation” process ,,,John tells that and King Jesus Christ tells who He came for at Matthew 15:24… Meanwhile………………..
        Praise King Jesus for Salvation and Healing… Acts 2:38 is salvation…

        Charlie Freedom

  • Andy

    I have a simple analogy that maybe even Karolyn and Doc can understand: (picture this:) Downstairs in your basement you have a printing press that continually prints out money of every denomination that is indistinguishable from “real” currency. How serious would YOU then be about controlling your spending habits? …an endless supply of cash, just for the taking–a dream come true. Why, you could do anything you ever desired–soon, the taste of this kind of power would be all consuming. There–now you have a perfect picture of our government. Get it yet?

    • http://donthaveone Beberoni

      Very clear analogy. Thats pretty much how it is. Very well said.

    • JC

      Good one Andy,
      My take was that it’s just like playing Monopoly in a game where the Banker has an endless supply of money. Eventually he will own everything and that is exactly what is happening in the real world.

    • Mike in MI

      Yah but, … Andy, at some point everyone would realize that stuff had no wealth backing it. Then it wouldn’t be taken seriously. Without confidence in its value it would have no purpose. If somebody had a chicken or gallon of gas he wouldn’t exchange his property for your pieces of paper.
      At that point the best thing you could do is get a long strip if tissue paper, perforate it every 5″, print Obama’s face between the perforations, roll it up and hang it in the bathroom and do whatever you do with that stuff.
      Now, that might have some real value.

  • Nasty Nat

    How could the House of Representatives, including Boehner, have read a 154 page legislation in three (3) minutes prior to voting? Simple truth, no one read it. Just like Obamacare passed and crammed down our throats..

    • Steve E

      You have to pass the bill first before you see how awful it is.

  • http://orples.wordpress.com orples

    I wonder what dear old Uncle Sam would do if the people simply refused to pay any taxes, at least until Obama proved himself eligible for POTUS … which will be never, because if he were eligible for the job, he wouldn’t be hiding his past. I guess there would be nothing left to do, but turn to the Federal Reserve to counterfeit our way out of debt.

    How did the people ever stand by and allow the Corruption on the Hill to carry on for so long and to such an extent? It is time that the people stand together and reclaim our Nation. Although, short of a bloody Revolution, I can’t see any reprieve at this point in time. Wasn’t it taxes that started our founding Revolution? Hmmm, maybe it’s time for History to repeat itself, since we’ve obviously not taken any lessons from the past.

    • wsk

      They would put you in prison……..

    • DaveH

      If the people refused to pay their taxes, the Government, through its Federal Reserve, would just create new money to pay themselves until the dollar became worthless like the Zimbabwean dollar did.

    • Steve E

      You could do it if everyone did not pay at the same time. Think of a flash mob. You could have local militias guarding the doors of companies to keep the IRS agents out. Pretty soon the gov’t won’t have the money to pay the agents to arrest you. They won’t work if they don’t get paid.

    • nc

      oprples, how much do you think taxes got us through the wars FOUGHT FOR YOUR FREEDOM and paid for the well being of our elderly who outlived their life savings? Is our need for defense getting less expensive or our elderly any less needy? Do you like our road system? Have you paid the one million it taxes it takes to build ONE mile of road? Have you ever missed one meal in your adult life due to your tax burden???

      • DaveH

        A common thief might ask the same questions.
        What I would like to know is why the same people, who constantly rail about the Rich taking advantage of them, are the first ones who want to similarly take advantage of other people?
        Isn’t that a bit hypocritical, NC?

      • Mike in MI

        Dave -
        Not on your life, it’s not hypocritical. It’s serious “liberal-peak”. When one recognizes no rules or morals or nothing one won’t do … what possible difference could it make what one says?

  • wsk

    …and yet Boehner was rewarded with the Speakership again. Republicans are so screwed up, it’s scary. We need to purge these frauds in the primaries and elect CONSERVATIVE candidates- who will then stand up to the low-eared man-child messiah and tell him to go f–k himself.

    • John R. Howell

      Good morning WSK,
      You are so right. Republicans are like a bunch of scared rabbits, and they will keep doing nothing until this country is totally lost. John R. Howell

      • deerinwater

        So defaulting was an option on the table as you seen it John?

      • Steve E

        Default will be the best thing for this country. It won’t affect me in the least. I’m prepared.

      • Bill

        Steve E
        You are right, defaulting is a great option. Just like iceland. They defaulted, actually put the polititians in jail that caused the mess and are fastly moving on the road to recovery.

        I receive nothing from the government, so I would like to see a default. We could eliminate 50% of the non producing pubic sector jobs that keep sucking our economy dry.

    • nc

      Wsk, Republican candidates must talk the Conservative talk to get the nomination be they true conservatives or Rinos! Then comes the presidential elections and how do Americans vote! Against the one who has talked the Conservative talk! (Republican candidates) Lesson: Republicans need to talk at least the moderate talk( compromise) any maybe the people will listen to you! When you talk taking away women’s rights to their own body they get spooked! When you talk the sabre rattling TALK those with sons and daughters who could be called on to fight YOUR WARS THEY GET SPOOOKED! When you talk about spending on the military at the same time you talk cutting aid to education, the young people in the midst of getting their education get spooked! I don’t know why I am telling the opposition this, except I am weary of the conservative hide bound positions that are strangling us! Seems I an not alone! SEE POLLS!!! except faux noise “call in” polls

  • Motov

    We deserve the government we elected in, We could have voted every incumbent out. Vote only third party, but no we are just plain stupid to vote in the same numb skulls and expect something different! Well now we piss and moan because the crap will get worse, and we have ourselves to blame. Well. done america! Welcome to the USSA!
    Land of the phony Government!

    • http://gillysrooms.blogspot.com Gillysrooms from Australia

      Motov, If its true that your government takes 41% of your GDP, then you are already in the USSR and the Russians must already be laughting that you have become a communist country and your nor aware of it. In Australia it is around 24.3% if the figures are accurate and we are screaming its getting too high, yet what was it under the last Republican Government I wonder?

      • DaveH

        Our Total Government “Spending” is 41%, Gilly. Currently they’re “only” taking about 34% of the GDP. Thus the Deficit which is borrowed and added to the National Debt or State Debt to be paid back somehow by future generations.
        Australia’s Federal Government Spending is about 23% of their GDP.
        I couldn’t find any figures for the Total Government Spending (Federal and local) in Australia.

    • Steve E

      Most Republicans and Democrats are the same. That’s why God made Libertarians.

      • DaveH

        God made Libertarians because we’re good at suffering Fools.

      • nc

        Steve E. God(?) also blessed us with NEVER allowing a Libertarian to become President so we could reach the number One position in the world! Vote Libertarian and defeat a Republican! Sounds good to me!!

      • DaveH

        We lost number 1 a long time ago, NC, thanks to ignorant propagandized Liberal Progressive followers like yourself.
        People who get ill from taking the poison “medicine”, so then take even more thinking that they just aren’t taking enough yet.

      • DaveH

        Speaking of fools.
        NC, you still have avoided explaining to us why the countries, with the least Government and the most Capitalism, have economies many times better than those with the most Government and the least Capitalism.
        Is it just bad luck?
        Are you ever going to answer?
        http://heritage.org/index/ranking

      • Right Brain Thinker

        Speaking of fools, Dave, how many more times are you going to post this meaningless link and on how many threads? And how many times am I going to have to point out that you are misleading everyone when you do so? And that you are misusing the data there?

        To paraphrase you, Dave, “you still have not explained to us HOW THIS REFERENCE SHOWS that the countries, with the least Government and the most Capitalism, have economies MANY TIMES BETTER than those with the most Government and the least Capitalism”.

        Of course, I CAN understand why you haven’t even attempted to do that this time. The last time you did, I shot your argument full of so many holes that it became invisible. And I didn’t even use all the data that I could have to accomplish that

        Smart of you not to risk that again. Or would you like me to resurrect our comments from that “episode”, add some more data, and post it all here so that we can do a reprise for everyone’s amusement? Or will it be good enough to just say this?

        DAVE IS LYING TO YOU AGAIN FOLKS—-THE STATISTICS HE CITES DO NOT PROVE WHAT HE IS SAYING THEY DO. BELIEVE THAT.

      • DaveH

        That’s all you’ve got, Lizard Brain — Proof by Bald Assertion? Proof by Personal Attack?
        But please keep posting. It’s a toss up as to who makes the Liberal Progressives look worst, you or NC or Galt.

      • DaveH

        RBT (obviously a shill) says — “DAVE IS LYING TO YOU AGAIN FOLKS”.

        Feel free to point out specifically what it is that I lied about, LB.

      • Right Brain Thinker

        The Eater of Dead Lizard Brains called DaveH (and obviously a shill) says:

        “RBT (obviously a shill) says — “DAVE IS LYING TO YOU AGAIN FOLKS”.
        Feel free to point out specifically what it is that I lied about, LB”.

        NO, NO, Dave—-the ball is in your end of the court—-just where I have left it several times regarding this “reference” you seem so fond of giving us even though you haven’t read it and don’t understand what it means. Why won’t you hit it back to my end?

        I said to you, “You still have not explained to us HOW THIS REFERENCE SHOWS that the countries, with the least Government and the most Capitalism, have economies MANY TIMES BETTER than those with the most Government and the least Capitalism”.

        “DAVE IS LYING TO YOU AGAIN FOLKS—-THE STATISTICS HE CITES DO NOT PROVE WHAT HE IS SAYING THEY DO. BELIEVE THAT”.

        So stop running around trying to evade the truth, Dave. Put up or shut up. I said you’re a liar because you are “citing statistics that do not prove what you are saying they do”. So do it—-explain to us how these statistics prove what you say. I showed that you were a liar the times you used them before and I won’t waste time doing it again. You’re lying again and will remain a liar unless YOU prove that MY assertion is false Go for it!

  • Doc Sarvis

    Born and raised in America and thankful for it. As an adult, I’ve always supported myself and my family, though like ALL of us, I benefit from many government programs (national defense, roads, education, ems, environmental protections, etc.)

    • Steve E

      Good national defense. Good roads, Awful public education which is really indoctrination, Good ems funded by local governments, environmental protections have become a dictatorship that is currently destroying business.

      • Bill

        Steve E,
        You are so right about the environmental movement. It was originally started by Carl Marx and Fred Engels. In the fifties, the socialist party said that if they tried to sell their agenda to the american people, they would not buy it. So, they capitalized on the environmental theme started by Marx and Engels.

        We now have a environmental movement whose real motivation is to kill capitalism. And guess what, It is working

    • DaveH

      My guess is that Doc is a Government Employee.

      • Bill

        Doc sound like a non producer, living off the fruits of someone els’s labor

      • Nadzieja Batki

        DaveH, pencil pushers consider themselves producers as well.

      • Karolyn

        Nadzieja – Everyone is a producder in their own way. How dare you deride “pencil pushers.”

      • DaveH

        Real producers, Karolyn, get paid voluntarily with the purchaser’s own money.

      • nc

        Dave h, since you have known all there is to know about economics and finance for the 20 years you brag about I know you are well fixed financially! You know about all of those countries were the economy is much stronger than the USA and you are still here where our system is killing you??? How smart is that? or are you not as smart as you would have us to believe! Flashy says you are dumber than a post and I can see where he is coming from!

      • DaveH

        Thanks NC.
        I can’t ask more from you Liberal Conservatives. You are probably responsible for more recruits to the concepts of Freedom than Bob Livingston and his staff.
        I mean, what normal people would want to remain ignorant like you Liberal Progressives are?

    • DaveH

      If you call “benefitting” — paying about twice what it would have cost for the Private Sector to do those things — then I guess you’re right, Doc.
      If you call “benefitting” — making people, who neither desire nor use those services, pay for them — then I guess you’re right, Doc.

  • deerinwater

    Hmm? Well Rats ! Only now are we being asked to pay for W. Bush 12 year war(s) and gift(s) both at the same time. ~

    Where is he anyway? I’d like to personally thank him from the heart of my bottom.

    “Households making between $40,000 and $50,000 will face an average tax increase of $579 in 2013, according to the Tax Policy Center’s analysis. Households making between $50,000 and $75,000 will face an average tax increase of $822.”

    Now if W had done what all of you are demanding for “O” to do, “Cut both spending and revenue” in 2005 ~ 8 years ago, we would not have this problem of “more year after the end of the money” and be required to borrow and pay interest.

    • Steve E

      There we go with the sweet memories of blaming Bush again. Wish I had a dollar for every time I’ve heard that. Of course to get those dollars, the Fed would have to print some more.

      • deerinwater

        I wish I had a dollar for every time that republicans refuse to acknowledge that a republican lead administration serious screwed us over! It was G W Bush and a republican lead 107th Congress we have to thank today.

        Or I wish that I had two dollars for this latest new “catch phrase” that some GOP knot heads are spreading around ” Democrats and Republicans are the same” ~ Yea Right!

        I’d admit , one head, two eyes, two arms and legs on one body is the first clue they might be alike!

        Well ? send your contributions to both then, ~ for clearly it does not matter if that is true!

        Pass the guilt and blame is the GOP’s Hallmark to fame! By any means necessary !

      • DaveH

        What do you mean, Deer, by “W. Bush 12 year war(s)”?
        Bush was only in office 8 years. What stopped Obama from getting out 4 years ago?

        • Deerinwater

          David says; “What do you mean, Deer, by “W. Bush 12 year war(s)”?
          Bush was only in office 8 years. What stopped Obama from getting out 4 years ago?”

          Unlike a lot of things David, short of an unconditional surrender , ~ wars feed on themselves and there is never a good time to stop one. It’s sorta like wrestling an alligator, there never a good time to just let go and say. “Ah! to heck with it”

          Having endured one war that could not be brought to a checkmate with hundreds of thousand of men and material that had to protected and accounted for, I would like to think I have some hands-on , working knowledge of phasing out, redistributions of responsibilities, materials and manpower.

          This processes is a daunting task to pull off with hostile activity taking place all around you. I was but one active player that assisted the 1st Army Division packing up and pulling out of Nam. I tell you that in just one sentence, while I could write you a novel about this event. The Bloody Red One was but a single division.

          It took 6 1/2 years to withdrawn from Nam David. And in it’s last days and the months that followed, it got messy as hell. ~~ and not just for US soldiers but for the people that we were attempting to protect. There again , a single sentence that would require several novels for you to ever begin to understand the nature of war and politics beyond an academic level. For academic people like yourself ~ the stand down started in 1969 and was over in 1972 ~ ignoring 2 1/2 years of messy hell on earth.

          In 8 years, 43′s international policies has created many enemies, many more than we started with. They are not going to stop, quit or give up just because we have a new president regard less what his name is.

          Here is a list of Army Division ONLY that took an active role in Viet Nam David, ~ we had to get them all home and ship back their equipment, destroy it or turn it over to the South Vietnamese Regulars.

          Airborne Divisions
          82nd Airborne Division
          101st Airborne Division
          [edit]Cavalry Divisions
          1st Cavalry Division
          [edit]Infantry Divisions
          1st Infantry Division
          4th Infantry Division
          5th Infantry Division
          9th Infantry Division
          23rd Infantry Division
          25th Infantry Division
          [edit]Active Duty Divisions not in Theater

          [edit]Armored Divisions
          1st Armored Division
          2nd Armored Division
          3rd Armored Division
          4th Armored Division
          [edit]Infantry Divisions
          2nd Infantry Division
          3rd Infantry Division
          5th Infantry Division
          7th Infantry Division
          8th Infantry Division
          24th Infantry Division
          [edit]National Guard Divisions

          [edit]Armored Divisions
          30th Armored Division
          50th Armored Division
          [edit]Infantry Divisions
          26th Infantry Division
          28th Infantry Division
          30th Infantry Division
          38th Infantry Division
          42nd Infantry Division
          47th Infantry Division

      • DaveH

        We can withdraw from those wars, Deer, as fast as we entered them. Obama just doesn’t want to.

        • Deerinwater

          You are right David, ~ There are 50 ways to leave your lover.

          http://youtu.be/32IS9TMP9wY

          Obama’s quandary is a tiny bit like Nixon’s with a Jimmy Carter ending.

          A rapid stand down would devastate and already devastated economy. Returning soldiers must be adsorbed slowly back into the system. ~ There must be opportunity for them. It’s not spoken of ~ for it’s most unflattering to acknowledge, ~ unemployed soldiers with a Dear John letters and seeing another man taking his take is a serious threat and this threat takes many forms.

          • Motov

            Simply deploy them all along the southern border, to seal up our Illegal alien problem there, that’s one solution.

      • DaveH

        And I might add that, being an Obama supporter Deer, you just don’t want to acknowledge that fact. It’s much easier to blindly blame Bush.

        • Deerinwater

          Only because I cannot support John McCain or Willard ~ David.

          Give me a choice ! “O” the better of the two. ~ hands down. Do you believe for one minute that I enjoy my options?

          I feel like a man that is grateful that it just a flesh wound and I’ve still got use of an arm and no an empty sleeve.

          • Ranger 1

            I see the wool weighs heavy on your eyes also. Blind leading the blind. Higher taxes from patriots to pay for healthcare for people to sit on their asses because they choose too…
            The leech will suck blood as long as you let it.

          • Deerinwater

            Higher taxes to pay for government expenses, including Airborne Rangers payroll checks and their health care.

            All tax payers will be required contribute, not just patriots or low income. If you live long enough you might get to use it.

            That is it about that you are failing to understand? It’s all tax payers.

          • Ranger 1

            Deerinwater,
            I can tell by your comments that you are a true Tree Hugger. And what you are failing to understand is that I would rather my taxes pay for my Ranger salary than for lazy ass leeches to sit @ home everyday and live off of the backs of hardworking Americans.
            Maybe you need a good reality check and also question your own patriotism.
            You need to change your name to : DEERINHEADLIGHTS. HOORAH !

      • DaveH

        Deer gives a typical superficial treatment to the question of withdrawing our troops:
        “A rapid stand down would devastate and already devastated economy”.
        Why would that be, Deer? What would be the difference between having them here spending their money in our own economy, or having them there spending their money in somebody else’s economy? And over there they are destroying wealth as well as lives. We would also save all that ordinance that they’re wasting over there.
        In other words, there is no real excuse, Deer. You just support the continuation of the wars because Obama is Commander in Chief.

        • Frank Kahn

          DaveH, I disagree with much of what Deer says in his support of Obama. I think he is dead wrong on the economic principles Obama uses for his theoretical recovery. However, on the subject of a strategic military withdrawal from a hostile environment, he is 100% correct. There is an immense amount of planning and logistics decisions to be made. What leaves first, troops or equipment? What support staff is needed, and when. How do we protect our assets (including men and machinery) during the withdrawal. What resources are available to ship the assets, aircraft, land and water capabilities? How will the returning soldiers be re-integrated into their civilian positions? Deer was somewhat vague in his explanation because it is such a long list that I have not even touched on the surface of all the needs. As to the amount of time, the following is a hypothetical situation to explain the time imposed by the intricacy of the undertaking.

          Situation:

          We are going to build a house. Needs for building:
          1. Location selection 2 weeks to 1 month
          2. Blue prints for design and construction 1 week for selecting pre-existing or 2 months to draw up new ones
          3. Site preparation: 1 month
          a. Contracting heavy equipment for clearing
          b. removal of all obstructions to construction
          c. research of availability of utilities
          d. obtaining permits
          4. Laying pre-foundation requirements 2 weeks
          a. Water and Sewer piping
          b. Electrical (power) lines
          5. Setting foundation 1 month
          a. contracting personnel and equipment for laying foundation
          b. excavating (digging) location of foundation
          c. appropriation of materials for foundation (wood for forms and concrete)
          d. building and setting forms
          e. pouring concrete
          f. letting concrete cure
          6. Erecting Frame 2 weeks
          a. purchasing materials (possibly prefabricated roof and ceiling)
          b. building main frame with load bearing walls
          c. placing and or erecting the ceiling and roof frame work
          7. outer wall installation 2 weeks
          8. insulation for walls 1 week
          9. flooring 2 weeks
          10. inner walls 1 month
          a. install all wiring
          b. install all plumbing
          c. put up plywood or sheet rock as desired
          11. roof and ceiling wood covering 2 weeks
          12. attic insulation 1 week
          13. External functional and visual coverings 2 weeks to 1 month
          a. roofing tile
          b. exterior covering (paint, stucco or siding)
          14. install windows 1 week
          a. purchase all window and framing materials
          b. build window frames
          c. install windows.
          15 interior wall coverings 1 month
          a. select and purchase desired covering (wall paper or paint)
          b. install wall paper or paint walls and ceiling
          16. Floor covering 2 weeks
          a. select desired coverings (tile, linoleum, carpets) and purchase them
          b. install floor coverings
          17. install doors 1 week
          a. purchase all doors required
          b. install frames and doors
          Total time 10 months
          Now we want to remove the house, however we want to do it in such a manner as to preserve all the materials as useable.

          If you follow the procedure in reverse you will accomplish this as close as possible, there are some items that will not be re-usable however like nails and things. You can drastically reduce the time for some of the aesthetics like removing the carpet, and wiring, but much of it will take longer. Removing the tile or linoleum will be very slow and difficult as will removing the nails holding everything together. It will probably take you almost as long to UNBUILD the house as it took to BUILD it. Now you could just bulldoze it down in a couple days, but that would destroy all your assets. A military buildup is much like building a house and withdrawing from combat is the same as un-building a house. You dont rush ending the engagement and lose all your assets.

        • Deerinwater

          David says; “Deer gives a typical superficial treatment to the question of withdrawing our troops:
          “A rapid stand down would devastate and already devastated economy”.
          Why would that be, Deer? What would be the difference between having them here spending their money in our own economy, or having them there spending their money in somebody else’s economy? And over there they are destroying wealth as well as lives. We would also save all that ordinance that they’re wasting over there.
          In other words, there is no real excuse, Deer. You just support the continuation of the wars because Obama is Commander in Chief.”

          David ask, ““A rapid stand down would devastate and already devastated economy”.
          Why would that be, Deer? ”

          I say; Go asks this question to Jimmy Carter David.

          Well, David what I would say is ~ YOU understand very little but Know a whole lot.

          You would make a horrible ship handled, ~ with far too much over-steer. Ships and nations of people can only move so fast. What you may “want” to happen and what will happen” are two separate things and made only more so if you fail to factor in your present position, prevailing forces and where you are attempting to go! ~ The path is never a straight line.

          Yes, 44 wants to end these wars and he has closed down one. Yes ! he wants to close GITMO but doing so is another matter. (which he has since found out)

          Once ones ass is planted in the BIG CHAIR things become a bit more complicated.

          Sending thousands of soldiers home to raging unemployment and home foreclosures is a bad idea while efforts to make gains in these areas has been an uphill fight on the Hill. Any withdrawal of troop would add to the economic problems at home. Many soldiers actually joined up because of weak economic conditions back home. Some joined up just to get health care coverage for their families that they had no means to buy any others way. As US soldiers, their are now locked in, vested, their most basic needs barely met. Both the administration and 1st lady have made returning soldiers one of their high proprieties. A lot is being done, while it’s never seen as enough.

          What deployment 44 is responsible for has been in a effort to disengage , not to the level of LBJ’s “Rolling Thunder” but to shore up weak spots as any redeployment creates “holes” and shortages” , Rolling Thunders was an attempt to get the North to engage the Paris Peace Talks in efforts to broker a “peace”

          I know that is just gobby-gook to you , so I’m not going waste much more of my time with you talking about it David. Only small bits of truth can be found in your books. A single man’s view will leave you greatly lacking.

          I’ve been racing though your many curt postings on this thread ~ My, my We got the nasty coming out of you today. ~ don’t we? I wasn’t put on the earth to entertain someone like you David~ I don’t know nothing about you and at this point I no longer care too. You don’t need my permission, think and do what ever you wish too, but do prepared to pay the price for your folly.

          I could give you $10,000 on January 15th 2013 and two years latter , you’d be broke as the 10 Commandments. The real world would eat you alive.

          I’ve left to guess, something has been taken from you David , the ability to earn, body broken, no personal life , left to only read, surf the net ~ overdosed on Ayn Rand and fascism Austrian thinking regarding economics and call people names in cyberspace to avoid being punched in the snotlocker.

          This obsessing with “others stealing and taking” the singling ou,t identifying and labeling and blame and faults ~ has you going around like a roach on Raid.

          There is a world out there David, go get yourself a life. But plan on making some mistakes. The only people that don’t make mistakes are the people that don’t do anything. Which seems to be the way you come across (which I know is impossible to do)

          I’m a busy man, ~ no more time for you David ~ It’s been fun, but I must run. much is afoot.

          Carry on

          Your Friend,
          Deerinwater

          PS, I enjoyed both Ayn Rand and Ron Pauls books eminencly ,very thought provoking! I couldn’t set them down, ~ read them several times. But the devil is always hiding, waiting in the details David ~

          Ones own life gets down to the fact we are “all born naked” and then we select which clothes we wish to wear and this blaming Mommy for dressing us funny and for our personal failures just don’t ring clear to any ones ears.

      • DaveH

        Frank,
        That’s a stretch comparing the building of a house (a productive wealth-creating venture) to military action (a non-productive wealth-destroying venture).
        You haven’t convinced me. Like I said they can get out as quickly as they got in.

        • Frank Kahn

          I am sorry that you are incapable of understanding the correlation of the two situations.

          You need to define and understand wealth before using it in such broad sweeping statements.

          The military does not necessarily destroy wealth, they do however consume great amounts of resources. Their mission is not to destroy the wealth of a nation, it is to deplete the military resources of the other nation. Depending on the situation, the effects of a successful military campaign might even increase the perceived wealth of the nation.

          In my example, of building a house, I did not create wealth. I used my resources (money) to buy and or rent other resources in an effort to create a new resource. It creating wealth can only be assumed if you think in terms of profit. If I built it for $100K and sold it for $150K then I accumulated more of my original resource (money), but I did not create wealth because the money I gained was lost by the person purchasing the house. I simply paid to create a product.

          Now, the analogy is very apropos, when you think about the term “military build up”, it is the same as the house building. Withdrawal of troops is the same as withdrawing parts of the house.

          As far as taking the same amount of time to withdraw troops as it did to build them up, maybe you are correct but you just dont understand the amount of time it took to do it. We did not simply move everything into Iraq or Afghanistan in a week or two, it took years. That means it will take years to get it back out.

          When I was in the Army, I was re-assigned to Italy. It took me about a week to process out of the Base in Oklahoma. When my tour was done in Italy, it took me about the same amount of time to process out of Italy and back into the states.

          Also, on the subject of Iraq, we were an invading army there. By international law we were not allowed to withdraw until a stable local government could be re-established there.

      • DaveH
      • Deerinwater

        You are a moderately useful idiot Range, I’ve sacked many just like you and sent them home to mama.

        Go play with someone that shares your maturity and IQ and let the grownups talk without your mindless interference.

        ” Airborne Ranger qualified, I’m gonna run in the woods and hide”

        WooRa ! ~ You are fine, just the way you are ~ Ranger ~ I’ll pay your salary just to keep you busy picking up cigarette butts and out of the way.

        • Ranger 1

          Deerinheadlights,
          You like other liberals have a big mouth. The only thing that needs to be picked up off the ground is probably your fat ass from the picture on your profile.
          You are what we patriots call a pathetic individual. The truth is that you are the weak and I am the strong that’s why I have served my country for over 20 years. Talking to individuals like you is like talking to a goat in Afghanistan, just plain stupid. Stick your head up Obama’s ass just a little more. You seem to enjoy it.

          • Deerinwater

            And you Ranger are an excellent argument for birth control , little more than someone’s accident looking for a place to reoccur. We need people like you but not very many.

          • macgyver1948

            Ranger 1… I am a liberal and I was in the Air Force during Vietnam. I was so pissed then, and still am, when Jane Fonda sat down for tea with the enemy. We all had to wonder why are we here if she is embarrassing us all. And I can say that even though I was opposed to our being in Vietnam.

            The so-called fiscal cliff is a product of the decades in the making. There were budgets of bush jr’s which didn’t go into effect until months after Obama took office and we are still living with the losses of those. We are still paying for the bush jr wars. There were Problems Clinton created. Heck, I believe it was Johnson who allowed for the thefts of Social Security funds to “pay” for other projects. IOUs there are worthless. Reagan was the tax and spend Republican and his budgets started some problems too. There is so much blame to go around on both sides but I see the TPGOP as adding more to the problems than Obama. I guess that could be why I lean Liberal.

            My cousin was a Ranger in Vietnam around the time I was there. He and many others to this day are Democratic, some not, and they wouldn’t dream of switching to the TPGOP so I guess it depends on how you see it. We all have that “free choice”, which is not only something you and I were in for but many seem to forget. Thanks for your part in service. Mine was more in logistics and supply.

          • Deerinwater

            Right , Jane is a friend of mine, ~ so was Janice, Criss and Rita and of course Willy, as was Tony Curtis. So what’s your point?

            Why don’t you go play with some dangerous and leave that thang alone.

      • DaveH

        Frank says — “The military does not necessarily destroy wealth”.
        Those homes and other buildings they destroy aren’t wealth, Frank?
        And you think people are going to take your comments seriously?

        • Deerinwater

          I don’t know how this started are where you are attempting to go with this. But US military does not destroy for the thrill and joy of it. The is always valid reason, ~ it might be small, ~ but it’s not up for arbitration. ~ To become a target is not hard to do. To be a victim of friendly fire is not hard to do.

          Stonewall Jackson was a victim on friendly fire in the battle of Chancellorsville.

          “Darkness ended the assault. As Jackson and his staff were returning to camp on May 2, they were mistaken for a Union cavalry force by the 18th North Carolina Infantry regiment who shouted, “Halt, who goes there?”, but fired before evaluating the reply. Frantic shouts by Jackson’s staff identifying the party were replied to by Major John D. Barry with the retort, “It’s a damned Yankee trick! Fire!” A second volley was fired in response; in all, Jackson was hit by three bullets, two in the left arm and one in the right hand. Several other men in his staff were killed, in addition to many horses. ”

          If a house is hiding something or just blocking a view ~ such a house or building is “compromised” ~ depending on a soldier directive and what resources he has at his disposal, ~ such a building might well be considered compromised.

      • DaveH

        Deerinheadlights says — “You are a moderately useful idiot Range, I’ve sacked many just like you and sent them home to mama”.
        Yeah sure, Deer. Did Karolyn sell you her Magic Mirror?
        But thanks for commenting. You’re getting right up there with the other Liberal Progressive losers.

        • Deerinwater

          I’m neither a liberal or a loser David. ~ You ability to accurately describe and define the world and the many people(s) in it. is seriously limited David. You are like a child with only three crayons.

          You must be a quadriplegic shut-in that is not able to get out much. At least you can read ~ but why all this conspiracy, cloak and dagger trash? ~ Bibliographic material of people that had actually done something with their lives is much more rewarding and uplifting.

          Why don’t you stop this childish game of Nanny Nanny Poo Poo while you still have some dignity about you ?

          You are making me laugh!

      • DaveH

        More personal attacks and unsupported conjecture from the Liberal Progressive Deer.

      • DaveH

        Deer says — “I don’t know how this started are where you are attempting to go with this. But US military does not destroy for the thrill and joy of it”.

        Did I say anything about their intent or emotions, Deer?
        Neither you nor I know what drives our Leaders to send our military to mess with other countries. All we know is they do it, and a lot.
        But there is some pretty good evidence of what there motivations might be. Like these facts:
        In 2000 Iraq began selling its oil in euros.
        In 2006 Syria switched all of the state’s foreign currency transactions to euros from dollars.
        In 2009 Iran completely stopped conducting oil transactions in U.S. dollars.
        In 2011 Libyan Leader Ghadafi decided to to pursue a gold standard and reject dollars for oil payments.
        And you wonder why the US Government involves us in these countries? Can you say Bankers?
        http://2012patriot.wordpress.com/2011/04/28/new-libyan-gold-dinar/

        What our Leaders tell us is belied by their actions. Actions speak louder than words.
        We can take their word no more than we can take the word of the Liberal Progressives that comment on this site.

      • DaveH

        Deer says — “But US military does not destroy for the thrill and joy of it”.

        Don’t know about the Joy part, but this video definitely portrays thrill:
        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5rXPrfnU3G0

        Judge, Jury, and Executioner from above.

        • Frank Kahn

          That is a movie Dave, not real, can you tell the diffference?

    • DaveH

      Yes, Bush was a Big Spender. But what does that have to do with Obama’s Bigger Spending?

      • deerinwater

        Political promises and posture David. ~ Our elected Representative make them while leaving other elected Representative the task of honoring them, or desolving them.

        In any-case , normally a 4 years buildup will take half that long too redeploy ~ many things are factored in David, ~ It’s a very complex logistical, geopolitical game , one that Geo W. Bush administration played so poorly ~ I’m embarrassed.

        Standing on the outside, looking in, it’s suppose to appear simple and seamless. But I assure you, simple is the last thing that it is.

      • DaveH

        Deer says — “In any-case , normally a 4 years buildup will take half that long too redeploy”.
        Why do you think they’d need to “redeploy” them?
        Your answer is simple, Deer. The solution would be as simple as your answer. Just like quitting smoking, they just need to want to do it. They could bring them home as fast as they sent them there.
        To tell me the solution is complex, Deer, is just a cop-out. In other words, you just don’t have an answer.
        It is obvious to me, and to others probably, that you are just making excuses for Obama.
        That’s what I’ve noticed a lot about you Liberal Progressives. You are inconsistent. When Bush was in office the Liberal Progressives were all over his war-mongering. Now that Obama is the war-monger the Liberal Progressives have nothing but excuses for him.
        You should try taking some Principled stands and sticking to them, rather than changing your Principles depending on who’s in office. You would probably like yourself better.

      • Jana

        DaveH,
        It is very obvious to all of us who aren’t liberals.

      • deerinwater

        David says, “Why do you think they’d need to “redeploy” them?”

        Redeploy is just a term David ~ it could actually mean anything. It implies an end of one assignment and the beginning of another. A soldiers life is Hurry up and Wait. ~ Thousands of decisions must be made and orders cut and sent out. ~ They don’t sent out soldiers one at a time. You are deployed here to wait! ~ while your next orders are cut. ~ Then you go there! ~ This could happen 3 or 4 times, ~ It depends on where you are seen as needed and who wants you the most. ~ It’s not a Lotto. This process is all relevant to high command, down to company commands directives, intentions and what is happening around the world.

        For example, I was deployed from Nam to Oakland, where they destroyed my cloths, suited me out in new class A greens with overcoat, hat, shoes, sock and underwear, physical, dentist, debriefing and given orders that cut me loose in 3 days. If I was not going to reup, I didn’t need to go home but I couldn’t stay there. I had less then 120 days to my ETS date, (estimated time of separation)so they called it “Earlying Out” of a combat zone this could be called redeployed. I was redeployed until orders were cut. ~ The military holds their options open until the last minute in the cutting of orders. They are not stupid, ~ they been doing this for many years and know what they are doing. Doing double work is not something the Military smiles on.

        That you have no real experience of the military, ~ It’s not my job to educate you about such matters. ~or put up with your gaff about it. Go join up David ! if you want to understand the military and how it works and all the many terms, and why they do what they do.

        You have a long way to go and a steep vertical learning curve in front of you.

        I’m attempting to be kind to you ~ please permit me too.

      • DaveH

        Deerinheadlights says — “That you have no real experience of the military, ~ It’s not my job to educate you about such matters”.
        That you have little experience with English, Deer, is obvious to anybody who reads your obtuse comments.
        From thefreedictionary.com:
        Redeploy — To move (military forces) from one combat zone to another.

        • Frank Kahn

          I wish you would stop making me defend Deer, but you cherry picked your definition, same source full definition listed

          re·de·ploy (rd-ploi)
          tr.v. re·de·ployed, re·de·ploy·ing, re·de·ploys
          1. To move (military forces) from one combat zone to another.
          2. To shift (something) from one place or use to another for greater effectiveness: redeploy the company’s resources.

          http://www.thefreedictionary.com/redeploy

          You will note that the second definition is what Deer was using, which you conveniently left out.

        • Deerinwater

          The military will sent you anywhere , by anyway they want too David. Why speak of things you know nothing about in some feeble effort to cover up you lack of knowledge?

          You are just digging your self a deep hole.

      • DaveH

        Deer,
        I’m still waiting for you to send me home to mommy.

        • Deerinwater

          Good! wait right there, and don’t move.

      • DaveH

        Notice, Frank, that the primary definition applies to military.
        The secondary definition applies to “something”.
        Are you calling our troops “things”?

        You’re clutching for straws, Frank. Anybody who goes back and reads all the comments in the thread will see who’s being accurate and who’s not.

        • Frank Kahn

          something, refers to an item that is undefined or unspecified, in the military it is used for assets. If you disagree with calling our troops assets then you can say they are not something. However the opposite of something is nothing, are you calling them nothing?

      • DaveH

        I call them people.
        You’re grasping at straws, Frank.

      • deerinwater

        If Frank is “grasping” then you are clawing and drowning David.

        What makes it necessary to use “redeploy” only in a military context? No fool at bargaining, I kept my reup options open till the last minute. They wanted me to teach Track in Fort Sill, I don’t like working on Track, I don’t like stateside duty and I hate the police in Oklahoma. ~ one stripe and 4 grand was not worth it. My legal bill with be higher then that. But you don’t understand any of this ~ so why attempt to argue with me about something you’ve never known or ever will know?

        You made yourself the fool in pursuing your frivolous attack. ~ and now you act like you’ve made friends and influenced people. You can buddy up with your equal Range1 and cure all the world problems in just 10 minutes.

        You ripped your britches with this David, be smart and let it drop.

  • Fedup

    Karolyn, there is only one God; and you and me aren’t Him.

  • Roettger

    yep right they stuck us again…. keep your boots on… we all are to blame … YOU MUST BECOME A VOICE OF ACTION.

  • Terry Bateman

    Chip Wood says our government has a spending problem not a revenue problem.
    We need Chip Wood’s suggested federal spending cuts from the following programs:
    1.Social Security $778 billion
    2.Defense 716 billion
    3.Income Security 580 billion
    4.Medicare 484 billion
    5.Medicaid 361 billion
    6.Net Interest 225 billion
    7.Education/training 139 billion
    8.Veterans Benefits 129 billion
    9.Transportation 103 billion
    10 Commerce and Housing 80 billion
    11.Justice 62 billion
    12.International Affairs 56 billion
    (Adultery/fornication?)
    13.Resources/Environment 43 billion
    14.Community Development 32 billion
    15.General Government 32 billion
    16.Science/Space/Tech 31 billion
    17.Energy 23 billion
    18.Agriculture 19 billion
    19.Undistributed receipts (96 billion)
    Total $3.8 Trillion

    Democrats won’t touch Social Security.
    Republicans won’t touch Defense.
    Where will Chip Wood find $1 Trillion to cut from federal spending to balance the budget?

    • Steve E

      Libertarians will cut everything. Defense is in the Constitution so you have to keep it (but you can still cut a lot of waste I know is out there). Veterans Benefits are tied to Defense. General Government expenses are Constitutional. You can cut Justice by impeaching Holder. The rest can go. It is not in the Constitution. Vote Libertarian.

      • Motov

        Social security is a separate tax the Government stole to pay for other things. Only way to “fix it” is to get all government on it, take away their (tax payer funded) retirement package and put that money into SS, Make all of them use the same system then you will see real reform.

      • Terry Bateman

        Libertarians will never make it into office if they plan to cancel social security,
        medicare, medicaid,etc. Americans paid into those idiotic programs and they
        will get their fair share of benefits. anything less is immoral.

        • macgyver1948

          Terry Bateman… At the very least it is immoral and shows a total lack of compassion and concern for the recipients of Social Security, which is a pay back of the recipients own earned money, and Medicare which is a recipient monthly paid for health insurance program but with some help. Without the recipient’s contribution they get no health care so is this what the Libertarians really want. That and no SS so they cannot pay rent and eat and whatever else?

          Not only for these reasons but I do not understand how they call themselves “Libertarians”. Their alignment with Big Business is so TPGOP it is hard to tell the difference between them at times. And Ron Paul’s isolationism foreign policy lacks a lot of reality so I could never vote for them. I believe in America as well as the liberty and dignity of all individuals to vote for them.

    • Bill

      It is easy, Terry
      Every year, everyone takes a 25% haircut. If the heads of each agency cannot submit a lower budget, then they are fired

      When Reagan was governor of California, he asked private corporations to donate auditors to audit the different agencies in California. My friends father was donated by security bank to audit the prison system

      The result was that waste was eliminated and Reagan left California with a surplus. The answers are easy, we just have to implement them

      • Terry Bateman

        Governor Reagan passed the largest tax increase in California history, Bill.
        Tax increases plus reduced spending cut the California deficit. Why don’t they
        do it again?

    • DaveH

      Social Security? An Unconstitutional Government Ponzi Scheme. The Federal Government should liquidate all their assets and set aside a safe fund to pay back those who’ve been ripped off by Social Security. And then end the program.

      Defense? We spend more than 5 times the amount on Defense as the next highest Defense Spender (China) spends. We could cut our defense Spending by 80%, leave our gun owners alone and still have China vastly outgunned.

      Medicare? Another Unconstitutional Federal Government Scheme.

      Education? Another Unconstitutional Federal Government Scheme.

      Housing? Another Unconstitutional Federal Government Scheme.

      Community Development? Another Unconstitutional Federal Government Scheme.

      Science/Space? Another Unconstitutional Federal Government Scheme.

      Energy? Another Unconstitutional Federal Government Scheme.

      Agriculture? Another Unconstitutional Federal Government Scheme.

      In 1910 Total Government Spending was 8% of the GDP.
      In 2011 Total Government Spending was 41% of the GDP.

      Has Five Times bigger Government done us any good? I say a dramatic NO. It has done the Leaders a lot of good though. So I guess we should continue sacrificing to make their lives better.

      • Terry Bateman

        Dave: GDP was diddily squat in 1910 compared to what it is now. Would you rather
        have 1910′s standard of living or 2013′s standard of living? Would you like for
        everyone’s parents to move in with their kids when they retire and lose their
        independence? Would you rather have Germany, France, England, and Russia
        the strongest countries in the world? Would you rather have the roads that existed
        in 1910 or the interstate and state roads we have now? Would you have Russia
        landing on the moon first and militarizing it against us?Would you like to do without
        the innovative technologies that came from government research?

        Get Real, Dave. The real way to get the country moving again is to repeal government
        regulations including environmental regulations that kill business and jobs, cut
        the corporate and individual tax rates to 20% minimum including deductions,
        exemptions, credits, exclusions , and change dividend and capital gains taxes to 20%..
        With government out of the way and with reasonable tax rates, American ingenuity,
        and greed will produce enough to pay off the deficit over time and the Great Society
        that LBJ promised but never delivered.

        • macgyver1948

          Terry Bateman… It is funny that you ask “Would you rather have 1910′s standard of living or 2013′s standard of living?” considering Grover Norquist says he wants the budget and tax base to go back to the days of the early 20th Century. What would happen to America with that guiding our budgets besides total fiscal destruction for all who are not very wealthy? That means no more America. It is funny because Grover Norquist controls the lives and voting habits of over 270 TPGOPers in Congress and he dictates to them through the Pledge they signed and in other ways what he and his kind want for themselves, oh, and of course, Big Corporations.

          You also say “GDP was diddily squat in 1910 compared to what it is now” and it cannot support us today. Very true so I guess it is what the TPGOP want for today, or at least the budgets and tax systems that can not support what is is needed today. All because Grover says so and the TPGOP must obey.

          You do realize that eliminating Government regulations, another of what Norquist wants and the TPGOP is fighting for, is just to reduce corporate expenses even at the expense of the environment and our health. Cutting back on Jobs, totally in the control of the Execs, which is also an expense, the TPGOP supports. What a ‘Government Of the People’ (GOP), huh? Who does the GOP represent? It ain’t us.

  • deerinwater

    Ranger 1 says; “It’s people like you that will beg people like me to protect your sorry butt when the crap hits the fan!”

    I say; Unless you are employed and paid to protect me, ~ I would never expect you to lift a finger Ranger 1. What say ye? Who do you serve?

    Out of the goodness of your heart is not anything that I’m willing or prepared to count on.

    I expect you to show up and serve only if the money keeps coming your way. That is all that has ever been asked of you.

    Don’t try to kid the Kidder with regards to your occupational hazards and sense of loyalty to every Americans well being.

    • JC

      You may cast aspersions at patriots all you like, that is your privelege.
      However, the nation was created by patriots, defended by patriots and to a large degree built by patriots who actually loved this nation…ah, but there I go casting pearls before swine…that is “my” privelege. ;-)

    • Jana

      deeinwater,
      The problem with your supposition here, is you are imposing your values on others. Not everyone has your substandard sets of values. Sadly a lot of your generation who actually thinks that they should be given everything, or paid for every single thing they do, do think like you do.

      • Deerinwater

        If you might stop and read Rangers statement Jana , ~ you might find him more deserving of your comment than I.

      • Jana

        It must be nice to be so blind.

        • Deerinwater

          Go play Jana ~ take your toys and go outside ~ your friends are waiting.

          Chip Says, “In effect, we’ve given some chronic alcoholics the keys to the liquor cabinets. And now we hope they will somehow sober up? Don’t count on it.”

          I say; it certainly can be seen that way Chip but these are not the the same people.

          This is the 113th Congress and not the 107th Congress . There is a difference in them, while it is “true”, they both were lead by Republican leadership. It was the 107th Congress that gave W the keys to the Candy store and for a reward, W offered everyone TAX breaks!

          W got his unfunded wars, eventually becoming a warring Two term President and the 107th Congress got to be hero’s delivering Tax Breaks ! “Buy the round another house!”

          After that point, ~ Both future congress and the American people have been held hostage by the 107th Congress decision to commit to warring activities in order to inflict American corporate interest will along with NATO’s and Coalition forces in the “said efforts” to confront Terrorist and their activities in the Middle East.

          Once “Forces” of such a large scale are deployed ~ the bullet has all but left the chamber, ~ there is no putting the bullet back in the gun. or that is the feeling at the time ~ after 12 years of playing in a Middle East Cat Box, ~ I’d say, it’s never too late to change our plans where we are committing to boots on the ground.

          Two very different Congress, two very different Presidents.

          So now we know, ~ It’s has not been an effort to soak just the RICH, the top 2% as so many have made this claim for years until even I was beginning to believe it!

          Poor old RICH people! ~ I was beginning feeling sorry for them. ~ so now ~ I can expect to pay $900.00 to $2,000. more in taxes?? ~ Hmm? $900 I can live with but 2 grand will hurt! ~ I’ll shoot for 1150.00 and feel that I’m being fair to myself and my nation.

  • Frank

    A few months back, the Republicans had an opportunity to get some serious cuts in spending. They insisted on standing firm on their principal that there should be no tax raises for anyone. They took this position in spite of the fact that every poll of the public and of voters, showed that the public supported raising taxes on the higher income people. So by taking their uncompromising position, they lost totally on the question of tax increases and they obtained no speniding cuts in exchange. When, oh when, will the Republican party learn to have more flexibility so they can obtain some meaningful cuts in spending. Yes, they have more opportunity coming up in the next few months. However will they once more take such rigid and uncompromising positions that they will doom us all to no serious cuts in spending?

    • Terry Bateman

      Frank: What about the “rigid and uncompromising position: Obama took when he said
      that tax increases for the rich was a mandatory part of any fiscal “deal”. Republicans
      should have shot back that if tax increases on the rich was mandatory, so was federal
      government spending cuts in 2013 of an equivalent amount.

  • clark

    Washington is all about position to appear as the good guys. In my opinion there are few good guys there. I believe it is government, by the government, for the government. They should have to live by the same standards as those they govern, but they do not, and never will. Special interest groups and their money are what drives Washington.

    • DaveH

      That has always been the case for Leaders with a few rare exceptions.
      Here is a book that delineates our History from the discovery of America to the American Revolution:
      http://library.mises.org/books/Murray%20N%20Rothbard/Conceived%20in%20Liberty_Vol_2.pdf

      Long but well worth the read. It’s a real eye-opener.

    • Motov

      Yup and We are to blame for allowing it to continue. We should vote for the guy that doesn’t have the $$$$$ to spend like a drunken sailor and fill the air waves with their election ads. Chances are they don’t have interest groups with deep pockets pulling their strings.

  • adrianvance

    Uncle Sam has turned into Uncle Buck with a new car and three new credit cards to pay for it. They’ll all be gone in a matter of months and so will America.

    Come see us at The Two Minute Conservative, http://tinyurl.com/7jgh7wv and when you speak ladies will swoon and liberal gentlemen will weep.

  • Frank

    So many people say it is the elected officials in Washington who wants to spend the money. When a vote on spending billions on Hurricane victums came up, what happened. The press, the media, the public, the state politicans, the federasl politicans and even a few ministers waded in on how horrible Congress was not to allocate the money. So a delay of a few days and then spend the money because of the outcry from across the United States. The demands of the voters has much to do with the money that is spent. Look at the effort to cut the military budget and the hew and cry from rock hard conservatives that requires setting those cuts aside. Each American citizen should think in terms of what benefit do I, personally, receive from the government that I am willing to have cut. Far to often we spend all of our time thinking what benefits do other people receive that we should cut.

    • Karolyn

      It only took 10 days for the money to get sent to Louisiana after Katrina! This was a pure and outright evil snub fromt he repubs because the storm was in the northeast and, big whoop, Christie walked the damage with Obama. A bunch of little boys!

      • deerinwater

        Karolyn ~ 10 days is a long time ~ but if you had been there and seen the conditions, 10 days is not bad at all. ~ It wiped everything out ~ trapped people, 30,000 in the convention center alone. ~ Dead bodies floating, oil slicks, fuel slicks, fires, snakes, dogs, cats, swimming around, people whaling, children crying, no power , little food, little water, riots and looters, killings, rapes, muggings, beating, and no way out ~ not for that many people.

        We was in a 142 ft Universal, ~ a utility boat and came in after weathering the storm off shore. ~ There was piles of sunk boats like icebergs, building materials and so much crap floating in the water, we fouled a wheel six times with wire and rope, sail and awning material. ~ We couldn’t make our way through it. After sending a diver over the side 6 times to cut wire and rope from the wheel, we gave up trying to move about. Helped who we could help ~ made several load to Coast Guard and outer vessels waiting off shore to process people. We had 30,000 gallons of potable water that we attempted to distribute and some previsions ~ But that was slow and hard ~ as small boats had the same problem we did with fouling the wheel and walking about was dangerous. You could get bite, burnt or drown or just lost in the dark.

        There was just too much flooding and too many people. ~

        One might think walking about in waist deep water is no big deal ~ any it’s not, ~ not until you step off in a deep hole, only then do you begin to understand . ~ This ain’t working so good! Say good bye to whatever you was carrying, it’s gone.

        It was hard on the young and fit and impossible for older folk.

        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Effects_of_Hurricane_Katrina_in_New_Orleans

        Money was not what these people needed, there was little to buy in the first few days.

      • Mike in MI

        Karolyn –
        Katrina!!! 10 days to get the money there.
        Ever stop to think that was some years before Obama’s “Transformative Redistributive Deconstruction of America”?
        Today, we have only the trappings and illusions of wealth … before the crumbling starts.
        What’s there to send? IOU’s?

  • Chuck S

    I think they should at least have pushed some obvious things the dems would have a hard time disputing. They can still do this in the next crisis. Like:

    1) Sell more oil and gas drilling leases to increase revenue. Including ANWR Alaska.’
    2) I think 80% of the farm bill is food stamps. Let’s at least stop advertising food stamps.
    3) Obama’s favorite company, General Electric, paid no US taxes last year. Let’s look at whatever is causing this. I think subsidies and credits for green energy is a big part of it.
    4) Do a cost-benefits analysis of light and heavy rail subsidies. I think most of them cost much more than more roads. Busses are much cheaper.
    5) Slash Obamacare, with it’s 20 taxes and huge bureacracies.
    6) Freeze spending. Any proposed cuts are generally just decreases in the rate of increase. An actual freeze would be a big reduction in projected spending.
    7) The repubs should demand big cuts in bad regualtions. This wouldn’t increase or decrease spending or taxes, but would help the economy – encourage businesses to expand and hire more people. This would increase tax revenue and decrease unemployment. Also help social security – some older people who are unemployed go on social security at age 62 through 65 instead of 66. Including me – age 64.

  • JJM123

    According to Utah Republican Senator Mike Lee, members of the upper chamber had – at most – six minutes to read the “fiscal cliff” bill before they voted on it.
    Does this remind anyone of “Pass this bill so you can see what’s in it.”????

  • alpha-lemming

    Well….. look at that. My first paycheck of the new year and it’s smaller. I guess I’ve been a million/billionaire all along…. didn’t realize at the time… and my “little extra so that it’s finally a fair share” has kicked in.

    And ala Wile E. Coyote…. our Congressional paracute for our fiscal cliff-dive came packaged with an anvil.

    • Motov

      It could have been packaged with TNT,……..

  • http://wildeyguns.com The Christian American

    Inspired because the congress worked late into the night? NOT AT ALL. One year in the 1880′s, congress only convened for eleven days the whole year. That’s all that we needed them then and that’s all that we need them now. At least 90% of their “work” could be done by the private sector without having to layout the money that it cost us. We’ve become so accustomed for the government meddling in our business some of them think their God. The only bureaus that we had in the beginning were the post office and customs to collect excise taxes and that’s probably all that we need now. Remember when we had States? Remember when we had churchs and such organizations as the Salvation Army to take care of the needy? Remember when a relation with just between you and him and he made house calls? Remember when the market determined what you wanted to buy? Bad products were voted out by the consumer. Remember when you could buy milk from the farmer and food without a USDA label on it. I better quit. I’m getting myself upset. Ypu! It’s time to think seriously about John 3:16 and a return of liberty. If it wasn’t for having to save us from ourselves, I doubt Jesus would have come.

    • Charlie

      T C A,,,
      Well since King Jesus and John the Baptist spoke / wrote ALL of John chapter 3 ,,,your Prayer Power will be weak to none,UNTIL , you get baptized per Acts 2:38 with understanding of all of John chapter 3… NO one can say they love King Jesus Christ and disobey Him because of what King Jesus said at John 14:15… Meanwhile……………………
      Praise King Jesus for Salvation and Healing… Acts 2:38 is salvation…

      Charlie Freedom

  • JeffH

    Off subject but important enough to share – My letter to Sen. Diane Feinstein regarding her assault on legal and legitimate citizens with her scheming attempt at gun grabbing.

    Write to your representatives and Feinstein and express your displeasure with their attempts to disarm legal gunowners, make them defenseless and empower the criminals.

    Feel free to borrow from my letter.
    _______________________________________________

    Honorable Senator Feinstein,

    I am a gun owner and want to express my views about the proposed legislation attempting to make it harder for law abiding people to enjoy the sports of shooting and owning a firearm.

    I am a Transportation Manager and I am genuinely concerned that the government plans to eclipse my usage of sport shooting.

    Gun ownership is one of the most ardent rights that I believe in. We need to enforce the laws we already have and get rid of the ones that are not enforceable.

    I realize as a legislator you have to show that you are receptive to our needs. I am not one that wants you to reinstall the ban on so-called assault weapons or regular capacity magazines.

    You cannot legislate “crazy.” In almost every instance of mass killing, there were ample red flags and warning alarms that either were avoided or were not acted upon by mental health professionals, family members, friends and acquaintances. While I deeply respect an individual’s privacy and civil liberties, the American people need basic awareness of what indicators to look for regarding potentially violent, psychotic people. Our collective safety begins with being collectively vigilant.

    We need to promote gun safety through public education so that younger generations will grow up with a well-rounded understanding of firearm safety.

    In closing, I would like to emphasize that you work for me, not the other way around. I will not cower to you or anyone else’s gun grabbing mentality. I have an inalienable right to own the gun of my choice for any and all legal means up to and including my own personal defense of self and property.

    I will defend that right through every legal means afforded me by law and by the Constitution and fight you, through those legal means, every step of the way.

    Please reconsider the harm you will cause to legal and legitimate law abiding citizens by your, and others, overzealous attempt to implement a gun ban of any kind. Your attempt to limit or ban guns in America will only empower the criminals that have no respect for the law.

    Sincerely,

    • chuckb

      nice try jeffh, however, dianne feinstein cannot be convinced by the constitution. these people are liberal, they live in a different world , they don’t carry guns so why should you.
      these anti gun politicians don’t need guns, they have people armed with guns to protect them and that’s all that counts.

      • JC

        Just an FYI Chuck, Diane Feinstein the great hypocrite does have a conceal carry permit. She just doesn’t want you to have one.

      • JeffH

        chuckb, I’ve written so much to DiFei that she probably has my name in her “automated response” program.

    • DaveH

      Jeff,
      If she ever responds, would you post it, please?

      • JeffH

        I absolutley will Dave…and she usually does sent responses.

      • JeffH

        - does – :(

      • JeffH

        DUH! send

    • jopa

      JeffH; Wow you back! I thought you shot your eye out or something, haven’t heard from you in a while, Happy New Year.

      • JeffH

        I see your dimentia is still getting the better of you. Be very carefull not to choke on your meds.

  • chuckb

    the conservative population is dwindling in this country, the bolsheviks are slowly strangling the opposition, thru the media and education. we elect so called conservatives to the congress only to find out they are weak kneed and cannot face off the enemy.

    this administration has allowed the borders to be overrun with illegals, these people are all of the socialist mind, we will never know what percentage of these illegals were registered to vote, however, the bolshevik party is getting ready to slap us with immigration reform (reform) what a misnomer, with this addition to the rolls we don’t stand a chance of ever electing another conservative to office.

    it leads to one conclusion, we either except the knife in the back or we refuse to bow to the communist agenda. voting these so called conservatives into congress has failed, they have failed us and have for a number of years.
    boehner and mcconnell are both weak politicians and unable to confront the bolsheviks, they sell us out on important legislation,
    the republican party is done for and to keep voting for these jerks is a waste of your freedom.

  • ONTIME

    These incumbent elites did not stick it to you, they stuffed it up your backside and they have more coming….I would like to say WTP are their employers but they just proved to me they are bought and paid for,courtesy of your tax money, by the Faker in the WH. This illegal jerk by fiat, gave the congress, the appointees and the union government employees a undeserved raise and they didn’t even have the decency to tell the public they were going to defer their own responsibility…what a bunch of yokels and currs we have for elected representation we no longer have..How’s that backside feel America?

    WE PAY FAR TO MUCH FOR OUR DIMINISHING REPRESENTATION…

    • Charlie

      ONTIME,,,
      The Jew owned Federal Reserved and it’s people have controlled Congress since about 1916… These Jews are pointed out at Revelations 2:9 and 3:9. The Man doing the pointing was King Jesus Christ ,,,the real bloodline Jew from the Tribe of Judah can strike down these foney Jews when He “Wills it”,,, when the Real Christians wise up and figure out what “Jurisdiction” they are suppose to be under and , on, the lineage of Esau Edom will be gone as pointed out at The one page book of “Obadiah”… Meanwhile………………
      Praise King Jesus for Salvation and Healing… Acts 2:38 is salvation…

      Charlie Freedom

  • Bud. USMC

    CHIP, YOU ARE STARTING TO SOUND LIKE ONE OF THE POLITICIANS, WHEN YOU SAY PUTTING THE PAYROLL TAX BACK TO 6.2 PRESENT IS A TAX INCREASE. THAT IS WHAT WAS SUPPOSE TO HAPPEN WHEN IT WAS CUT TO 4.2%.
    LETS FACE IT THE USA IS GOING TO DEFAULT AT SOME POINT BECAUSE NOT ONE LEADER IN WASHINGTON D.C. HAS THE ALLS TO DO WHAT IT TAKES TO STOP IT. KICK THE CAN ON DOWN THE ROAD IS THE BEST WE EVER GET ANYMORE.

  • http://midcontent I41

    When the socialist/communists and their wanna be dickator/marxist brag about all the jobs they created, it was worthless government agancies, or30 days dink off jobs. One area that could be cut and save billions and bring cash. Sell off must of the worthless federal land and get it on the tax rolls. Private owned land produces more saleable products, and doesn’t require a boat load of book trained worthless idoits to hold each others hands and theorize. Second savings area is when arresting the gang bangers, make the cut the grass in road ditches, pull weeds and clean up cities and make the USA look better. A good day of work and fresh are, they will bed down and stop the stealing. All work will be done by hand. Save county and states plenty of money, and there are plenty of federal owned property to be cleaned. Of course since certainminorities would get sympathy from the jug ears pooch and his socialist/communists brethern!

    • Karolyn

      He’s baa…aack

      • JeffH

        You noticed too! :)

  • jopa

    All this talk about Obama spending so much I don’t believe he can actually spend a dime, but it is up to Congress whether or not any money gets spent.

  • chrissy

    So the majority of Americans earn more than 1/2 million per year ?? – My unnderstanding is they are the only ones who will pay higher taxes ( which incidentally was , with Health Care reform, how Obama got in for a second term and someting he has a mandate for ! ) I can tell you that here in rural Kansas very few people make that kind of money and personally , if taxes were raised on the middle classes slightly but it paid for univerasal health care for all and got rid of the Health Care companies who have for years made unethical profits on peoples misery – I would support that too

    • http://www.facebook.com/robert.jackson.73 Robert Jackson

      Wow you really don’t know what the hell you are talking about do you? Why the hell do you think Obamacare will give anyone free healthcare? What liberal [expletive deleted] media did you hear that from? It doesn’t give anyone free anything, it just taxes people who don’t have it. And if they are super poor, nothing changes they stay on Medicaid they don’t free health insurance

    • Motov

      Can you name one government run program that actually works? Where there is little to no corruption? where costs actually went down? And miles of red taped bureaucracy didn’t hinder the process of getting things done?
      Government has no competition, That’s why it fails when implemented, This also why we need to keep the markets open, and enforce the laws in place so make sure we are not getting ripped off.

      • DaveH

        The costs, of protecting us from getting ripped off, far exceed the costs of us getting ripped off, especially with the wonderful Internet where we can research most products easily before buying them.
        Government is doing the opposite of what most people think they are doing. Their regulations aren’t to protect us. They serve two main purposes:
        1) To protect their crony capitalists from competition.
        2) To give the illusion of “protecting” us, so they can garner votes from the ignorant voters.

        Even those regulations, which aren’t targeted specifically to give protection from competition to their favorite Crony Capitalists, do favor their Crony Capitalists in the sense that their mostly smaller competitors can’t afford to jump through all the regulatory hoops.

        Those people, who would like to better understand the game that is being played for the benefit of Politicians and their Crony Capitalists, should pick up a copy of this book and read it:
        http://www.amazon.com/The-Big-Ripoff-Business-Government/dp/0471789070/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1357400642&sr=8-1&keywords=the+big+ripoff

      • http://wildeyguns.com The Christian American

        What government program ISN’T bankrupt and kept alive with more tax dollars?

        • macgyver1948

          The Christian American… This is so true, you cannot run any business or government without income. In the case of government it is called taxes. I thought that was common sense…

          Oh Motov , just to respond. There are many government programs that work to some extent or this country would not be what it is even with the many programs having problems.

        • Motov

          Isn’t that what I said?

      • DaveH

        Even a person with a ball chained to his leg can move, MacGyver. Only much slower. Does that mean we should all seek to have a ball and chain?

        • macgyver1948

          DaveH… I do no know how to respond to your question in ways other than this. Who would choose to be weighted down with a ball and chain? Not me if I have a better choice. But we have what we have in government and we each seem to be choosing what we see as “better” than the alternatives. Unfortunately we are also choosing the better of the evils as we each see it. This will continue until we all get together, regardless of what side of the aisle we are attached to, and do something about it. We cannot do it individually but in large enough numbers we could make our vote count. If I believed my UN-wealthy vote and opinion mattered at all to government I would have to stop wondering why the systems isn’t working. Collectively we can make real choices. For example, Obama won again because more UN-wealthy people voted for themselves than did UN-wealthy who voted for the other guys. Now we all have to vote/demand collectively to make the changes we need. No ball and chain. It can be done but only if we wise up.

          It is our Government and the “Representatives”, elected or appointed, seem to have forgotten that, as well as who they really work for. We need to always remind them.

      • DaveH

        The only way we’re going to get what we want, Macgyver, is to vote for Less Government intervention in our Marketplaces. Favoritism for special interests starts with Big Government. To hope for Big Government to solve our problems is a false hope. It will never happen. The best way to satisfy the most people is to have Free Markets where people trade with each other voluntarily absent the coercive meddling of Government officials who naturally use their power to feather their own nests and those of the Special Interests who keep them in office. Governments only role in the Marketplace should be to adjudicate against Fraudulent Behavior and those who would Force themselves on others. As it stands now, most of the Fraudulent Behavior and Force comes courtesy of Government.
        As far as your statement that “Obama won again because more UN-wealthy people voted for themselves”, I would recommend changing “voted for themselves” to “thought they were voting for themselves”, although it is granted that the Republicans didn’t offer much better.

  • Wolfman

    the corrupt politicians including Obama can’t tax and spend their way out of this recession

    • Motov

      And they will increase spending, in this deal that is what they got with the higher taxes.
      There was no “Compromise” They just kicked the can further down the road.
      They are determined to ride this “gravy train” until it completely derails, destroying everything this country was, Then they will laugh all the way to the bank leaving us with the clean up bill. What a bunch of nice guys,…huh?

  • Ranger 1

    Melody LaForce, it’s obvious that your the idiot who cannot see through the fog. You are the weak and from your little speech I can see how easily it is for you to be led to a cliff like a scared and blind sheep. I love my job and I do it very well so people like you can sleep in a nice warm bed at night with no worries. I wish I did not have to defend people like you because to me people like you are the reason this country is going down the [expletive deleted]
    I might sleep in the sand every night and in the weather when i can sleep, but I guarantee you that I don’t lose a wink because I know that I am fighting for a lot of good red blooded Americans that feel the same way that I do. The revolution is coming & I hope to dear god I’m back in the States to Participate ! HOORAH !!!

  • macgyver1948

    Hi Chip Wood… this is a very nice Right slant you present on this issue. Here is another slant.
    Winners and Losers from a Fiscal-Cliff Deal
    http://news.yahoo.com/winners-losers-fiscal-cliff-deal-231507391–politics.html

    Some of it:

    Winners:
    ‘Middle-Class’ Taxpayers. With the Bush tax cuts set to extend for individuals making less than $400,000, middle- and upper-middle class taxpayers can breathe a sigh of relief. The Alternative Minimum Tax will be permanently lifted to reflect inflation, sparing close to 30 million taxpayers from a tax increase. The tax relief isn’t total, however: The payroll tax cut won’t be extended for another year, meaning that working Americans will see their paychecks reduced in 2013. But it could have been worse.
    888
    President Obama and Vice President Biden. President Obama made the fiscal cliff negotiations all about taxes, repeating the call for tax increases on the rich and tax cuts for the middle class that helped him win reelection. Although the final deal is less than the president had hoped for, he gets to say he kept his campaign promise to protect middle-class Americans. He also gets to renew key tax cuts passed as part of his 2009 stimulus package and to extend unemployment insurance. Meanwhile, Vice President Joe Biden can revel in the crucial role he played in last-minute discussions with Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell.
    888
    AARP. Seniors—and the lobbyists who represent them—won’t be feeling the pain of entitlement cuts come January, despite initial insistence from Republican lawmakers that significant cuts to Medicare or Social Security be part of a fiscal cliff deal. The battle to prevent a switch to chained CPI, a metric that would reduce the growth of Social Security payments, has been won, at least for now.

    More at http://news.yahoo.com/winners-losers-fiscal-cliff-deal-231507391–politics.html
    888
    Losers:
    Deficit Hawks. Going over the fiscal cliff would have significantly reduced the deficit, combining cuts to domestic and military spending with tax hikes on pretty much everyone. The last-minute deal reached by Washington negotiators lifted taxes on the wealthiest Americans and didn’t do anything to cut spending.
    Speaker Boehner’s Plan B. Speaker Boehner’s attempt to rally his caucus behind an alternate cliff deal, dubbed “Plan B,” failed miserably: a bad sign of the Ohio Republican’s ability to put forward an alternative that his caucus could take seriously. Boehner’s plan included too many tax increases and not enough spending cuts for Republicans to stomach—and it seemed to temporarily stall negotiations.
    The 1 Percent. Wealthy Americans who make their money from investments, rather than paychecks, were losers in the fiscal-cliff deal. In addition to higher income taxes, those who make above $400,000 will now be subject to a 20 percent tax rate on their capital gains and dividends. The fiscal cliff wasn’t all bad news for the wealthy, however: They can still bequeath up to $5 million tax-free, with any additional money taxed at 40 percent. That’s greater than the current 35 percent estate tax rate, but less than the 55 percent rate on assets over $1 million that would have gone into effect without a deal.
    8888
    So my question is “Who does the TPGOP work for since it always appears to not be the UN-Wealthy?”. Hopefully some day soon both sides will work for all of us. Sounds like there was political compromise. That usually means most of us lose as government officials do not. But which side is really working for the UN-Wealthy more so than the other? I suppose it depends on which side’s slant you choose to believe.

    • DaveH

      The day they start working for us will be the day they start shrinking Government dramatically.
      Read this to learn more:
      http://library.mises.org/books/Kel%20Kelly/The%20Case%20for%20Legalizing%20Capitalism.pdf

      • macgyver1948

        DaveH… I looked at the table of contents of the link you offered me. Interesting, I will read it as I can, thanks…

        As for shrinking Government being the day they work for us. Well, I am for less costly and smaller government. Just so they do not eliminate needed programs, only get right of wasted and unnecessary ones, there are are plenty of those.

      • Right Brain Thinker

        DaveH says, “Read this to learn more” and gives us the predictable 500 page mises book that he has not read.

        macgyver1948 says, “I looked at the table of contents of the link you offered me. Interesting, I will read it as I can, thanks…”

        You are actually thinking of reading something that Dave puts forth from the mises propaganda site because the TABLE OF CONTENTS looks interesting? Maybe you should look a little farther into it, as I do when I look at Dave’s garbage. Introductions, prefaces, conclusions, and summaries can be very revealing and help one avoid brainwashings.

        Here is a direct quote from the author’s preface to this wonderful source that Dave has given us: He says———-

        “I would also like to defend my tendency of disproportionately
        using only a handful of sources for the bulk of the economic
        concepts I present here. Most of my sources in this book
        are associated with the Ludwig von Mises Institute because it
        is the world center of the only true free-market school of economics
        that exists, namely, Austrian Economics (which includes
        classical economics to a very large degree). The Mises institute,
        with its support of Austrian economics is therefore, the premier
        source of research on, and advocacy of, real capitalism. All other
        schools of economic thought other than this school of Free-Market
        economics endorse various forms of government control of
        the economy and of individuals”.

        “Additionally, I feel no need to pretend to have an “unbiased”
        presentation and thus to balance capitalistic arguments with
        anti-capitalistic ones. I do, however, present many anti-capitalistic
        arguments, and I do so as accurately as possible, but this is for
        the sole purpose of refuting them, as that is my objective in writing
        this book. My ultimate goal is not to present all assertions from all
        competing schools of thought equally, but simply to promote the
        ones that I have discovered, after years of comparing all arguments,
        to be correct”.

        I know that you don’t need a translation, Mac, but there are quite a few multi-syllabic words in there, as well a a bunch of phrases (see all the commas?), so I will do so briefly for Dave and others of similar mental abilities.

        The author is saying here, “I AM GOING TO GIVE YOU ONLY A NARROW VIEW OF THE SUBJECT BECAUSE I AM NOT TRYING TO EDUCATE YOU, BUT RATHER TO INDOCTRINATE AND PROPAGANDIZE YOU. YOU WILL NOT HEAR ACTUAL TRUTH FROM ME, BUT INSTEAD THE TRUTH THAT I WANT TO CONVINCE YOU TO BELIEVE BY PRESENTING ONLY BIASED INFORMATION”.

        At least he’s up front about it, I’ll say that for him—-too bad Dave can’t make the same admission about mises.org stuff. If you want to spend some hours reading, I would suggest “Winner Take All Politics”, “DemoCrips and ReBloodLicans”, “the Wrecking Crew—-How Conservatives Rule”, and “Selling Out” as being far more worthy of your time and attention.

        • macgyver1948

          RBT… Do not take that agreement to read as a acceptance of what does or does not make sense to me before I read it. I read both sides, which is why I come here. I read Wayne Allyn Root and Chip Wood and I listen to the not so funny comedian who makes jokes with no substance or reality, all of them with loads or rewriting/editing of their sources, and I always go away with a bad taste in my mouth with almost all of what they say. But I feel we need to know our enemy before we can deal fairly with them. Maybe there will be something decent in that site but I will read it with an open mind with no exceptions either way going in. If I cannot finish it I will stop and click out, that happens so often when there is no room at all for any alternative or individual thought.

      • Right Brain Thinker

        I hear you, macgyver. I never thought you would accept anything that “doesn’t make sense”. I was questioning why you would want to waste the time looking at things that don’t make sense. Have you read any of the books I suggested—a FAR better use of your time than ANYTHING you will ever find on mises.org.

        I have looked at far too many of Dave’s “sources” (and the way he misuses them) to believe that you will ever find very much of value in them. And pardon me for sounding like a cranky old Marine-linebacker-school administrator, but it’s rather “boy scoutish” to say “we need to know our enemy before we can deal fairly with them”.

        The “enemy” has no intention of ever “dealing fairly” with us. All you need to “know” to deal “fairly” with them is that they are in the center of your sight picture so that you can do the “one shot, one kill” thing with bullets of truth. Don’t let “them” distract you—-that is DaveH’s mission in life.

        • macgyver1948

          RBT… Between my dad and the classes I took in college, math-computer science and logic, it was drummed into my head a long time ago to investigate first and not assume any way before looking into it. One of the things that irritates me about Tea is it so often assumes before investigating, as well as “improves” on the facts as they want them seen, and it wants obedience in that for its followers. I cannot be that way. So, I look into what the Right suggests and see in discovery what is believable without advanced assuming. I do not want to be as they are with us. I also want to remember some of them really do love our country even with how they go about enforcing their sides beliefs. I just wish they could see the damage the TPGOP is doing, with things like the Norquist Pledge I see as a MAFIA kind of extortion pledge for the signers at the expense of the UN-wealthy, but they probably say things like that about our side too.

          I told him I would read it when I have time. It is on my list but I have so much to read for what I do it has to wait a bit and I have it iconed on my desktop. Trust me, they will not distract me.

        • Juan Reynoso

          Fellow Texas, we have come to the crossroad and decided to claim our right to self-determination and re-establish our Republic Of Texas. If you signed the petition join us. The Texas Nationalist Movement. We cannot continue being part of this corrupt government.
          Fellow Texans, this corrupt US. Government is ready to trash our constitution and our freedom to form the North American Union; they demised our economic and created the chaos and the exodus of millions of Mexicans, to sell us and the Mexican people the importance of this unification to fight the drug cartels, establish security and economic prosperity in the region. The truth is that Washington politicians sell out to the multinational corporations to enable them to exploit the human and national resources of Mexico without any impediments, the North American economic block will have a new constitution and laws that will make the corporations the rulers of ours countries and will silent the voice of the people forever.

  • DaveH
    • Right Brain Thinker

      Someone just sent that to me a couple of hours ago and I watched it twice before forwarding it. Is it possible that we’re on the same mailing list, Dave? Lord love a duck if that’s true!

      The clip is funny as hell and I recommend it to all. I would suggest to DaveH that the fact that Ronald and Nancy Reagan were sitting in the middle of the front row and the comedian tailored just a few lines to reflect that fact does not make it “political” humor but is just “playing to your audience”, something that all good comics do (and lots of posters do on PLD as well). Sometimes funny is just funny, Dave.

    • DaveH

      I know you just watched the pretty pictures, LB, but I’d be happy to explain the political jokes to you.

      • Right Brain Thinker

        DaveH just can’t resist throwing an inanity in after one of my comments in the hope that I won’t notice or won’t bother to waste the time to reply. Then Dave can congratulate himself on “winning” and high-five himself (hopefully removing his head from between his hands so he doesn’t slap himself silly) (or sillier)..

        Sorry, Dave, you lose yet AGAIN—-I noticed and will waste the time to reply. I have already explained the “political jokes” to YOU, and you AGAIN failed to pay attention. Will you EVER learn?

  • Charlie R

    Higher taxes …. Obama supporters must be elated and I trust those of them of that work will feel very patriotic when they get their pay checks.

    Obamas vacation …. $20 million…. 4,000 new government regulations costing $18.5 + billion to implement … raises for the white house staff, unemployment extensions ( the biggest unemployed voter payoff ever). Somebody’s got to pay and tax increases are the way to support untethered government spending.

    Happy “Hope and Change” and going ” Forward” to all in 2013.

  • janet

    received mt paycheck, surprise surprise ,$ 40.00 less imagine that, i sure don’t make,400.00
    obama costs us more than any other president.
    need 6 kids, medicade, food stamps, free phone, guess thats he american dream

    • Deerinwater

      Janet, If it were me, ~ I’d double check with your payroll dept and get a solid explanation of how your taxes were figured. With any change comes the possibilities of mistakes. ~ That is your right to do.

      And don’t settle for a brush -off, ~ bracket shift, etc. ~ If it is a bracket shift ~ and they refuse to change it. ~ find out just how many hours you can work without a bracket shift.

      Be polite but be aggressive in finding answers.

    • deerinwater

      Richard’s pieces did hit home, taking snapshots in time aiding us to see the many pictures of the path that we took and how we got to where we are today.

      At the time I was a Reagan supporter while my celebration with his victory was short lived. I was very disappointed. “Let’s wake up this Industrial Giant” he says ~ but the rest of Americans can suck a fish! “Let’s get the Federal Government off the peoples back!” he says ~ yea and let City , county and state make up their short fall anyway they can. ~ Reagan cut back and still spent more! i’d rather have the Fed on my back then city , county and state ~ They will drive by your home! Take pictures!

      But it’s since came to my attending that the seeds of selling America down the river did not start with Reagan as I had always believed. ~ These forces had been busy laying the ground work for such a man as Reagan for a good 5 years.

      It was the EPA that was proposed by President Richard Nixon and began operation on December 2, 1970, after Nixon signed an executive order when the seeds were first planted.

      The business community seen this as an attack to commerce and responded with increases in lobbying activity. ~ It took time, ~ they didn’t move at a rapid speed, they shunned the press. But this lobbing activity started dropped huge amounts of money into politics and the Hill has not been the same since.

      Reagan’s tenure was their Kick Off. ~ and The GOP the largest receivers of Free Money hasn’t been the same since.

      The did want Mitt Romney so bad!

      • mamba

        hey deer, are you really that ignorant? Anyone who earns a paycheck is going to get less! We get to pay more in social security tax! Everyone is! You don’t need to check with payroll – duh – that is what Obama did for those of us who actually WORK – raised our taxes!

        • Deerinwater

          mamaba say; “hey deer, are you really that ignorant? Anyone who earns a paycheck is going to get less! We get to pay more in social security tax! Everyone is! You don’t need to check with payroll – duh – that is what Obama did for those of us who actually WORK – raised our taxes!”

          mamaba, I normally don’t step far out of my way to discuss anything with anyone that would make such a foolish statement in a personal “flaming” manner. There is no room for conservation to be made.

          This day, there will be not exception and I will leave you to yourself, ~ a most fitting reward.

          We will all do with what GW Bush should have asked the Federal Government to do when he lowered Tax Rates in 2001 ~ with less.

          What the Tax Cuts Cost
          President Bush enacted a series of tax cuts in 2001, and in 2010 President Obama extended those tax cuts with a new sunset date of Dec. 31, 2012. Some members of Congress propose making them permanent.

          Cost to the U.S. Treasury from Tax Cuts for the Wealthiest Five Percent
          First decade of

          Bush tax cuts, 2001 – 2010 $955 billion
          Obama extension, 2011 – 2012 $229 billion
          Proposed extension, 2013 – 2021 $2.02 trillion
          Total cost, 2001 – 2021 $3.2 trillion
          Source: Citizens for Tax Justice, Joint Committee on Taxation, and Congressional Budget Office. Figures do not include interest payments on debt incurred.

          With the help of Citizens for Tax Justice, National Priorities Project is tracking every dollar the U.S. Treasury loses from tax breaks for the wealthiest 5 percent—American families and individuals who in 2011 made at least $176,000 and on average $477,453

          Show us mamba ! where in the last 11 years, tax cuts has spurred national economic growth. While all I see is the wealthy got wealthier and you and I got a big screen TV at Walmart. (actually, I haven’t got mine yet as my old one still serves me well)

          GW Bush the conservative, placed the US Federal Budget short falls on a interest yielding Credit Card issued from the Bank Of China for 8 years and spent like a woman preparing to file for divorce.

  • James Slagowski

    Send the big spenders in the Congress and Senate home and let them explain to their constituents why they cannot balance their checkbook. We don’t need pork, it is just our tax money coming back. We need less taxes so we can buy food, pay our doctor bills (thanks Obama-care), put gas in out gas tank, or pay out mortgage. I got a 1% pay raise and a 2% tax rise, so quick, some progressive, tell me how I won. The math does NOT work out, they all must have gone to public schools.

  • Richard

    I have NEVER in my life seen first hand like this why we most likely will never fix any problem facing us . Its simply because no one seems to believe anything that has to do with the truth and most of you really are ignorant enough to BELIEVE that Obama IS is (Muslim , Communist, Socialist, Marxist, Fascist), who of course is on the side of Satan as well. You are not even intelligent enough to realize that all those things are COMPLETELY DIFFERENT, so by definition they can;t be true. You are also completely fooled by the Right Wing propaganda which leads you to believe that the GOP spends less or REALLY wants small Government ! If they did they wouldn’t pass thousands of laws to make it larger! Here are a few REAL FACTS for any of you to digest, (however, I am confident you won’t) . The reason we HAVE a deficit is because of the BUSH TAX cuts , 2 unfunded Wars that never should have happened (Bin Laden’s GOAL was to BREAK us and GW played right into it) and the Medicare part B that was unfunded as well . All that stimulus crap with the Auto companies etc. was passed before Obama even took office. President REAGAN CREATED the TALIBAN and Al QAEDA because he was obsessed with Russia’s economy falling or we would have signed a treaty to disarm Nukes when Gorby was in power. Through Pakistan we funneled Billions of $$ and every wacked out Arab came to Afghanistan , then of course when we were done manipulating them , we stopped funding them , just like we have done to COUNTLESS countries while backing Muderous dictators throughout the world to further boost our Capitalism while making sure that “Third World” countries could not compete (like they do now) , From Iran Contra , to Argentina , Chile , Vietnam and MANY others, OUR CIA has wreaked HAVOC on the world and THAT is why we are hated by the Arab Extremists,(which of course 99.9% of Muslims are NOT), Bin Laden also knew that by getting us to invade Afghanistan and Iraq that it would PROVE his allegations against us which solidified his followers against us as well ! We are paying the price for our own arrogance ! President REAGAN changed us from a creditor to that LARGEST DEBTOR nation DURING his presidency ! HE was the beginning of the deregulation snowball that sold us out to the Banks , Insurance companies , and Wall Street. All you people on here arguing about senseless BS that has NOTHING to do with REALITY are why we are SO LOST ! BTW GOD IS IN EVERYONE OF US (which is hard for me to say after reading this). So why doesn’t one of you Brainiac income losing business guys add up the Cost of the two wars and add that to the Bush Tax cuts that created NO Jobs ? You with come up with the AMOUNT of the DEFICIT give or take a few Bucks ! HELLO ?? The largest new spending other then that has been the BLANK Checks being written to fund the removal of our RIGHTS by the PATRIOT ACT , the single, largest expenditure we have had , which takes away our 4th Amendment rights.as we set up spy networks and now ANYONE can be held for as long as they want WITHOUT even being CHARGED ! THE GOP did THAT ! As far as the budget and the fiscal cliff and all the CRAP that goes along with it which was CREATED BY THE GOP ! A Child could fix it FAST ! One , END the ‘limit of $110,000 to pay into Social Security , that will keep it solvent for years to come and pass a law that the Government can’t use SS $$ for anything else ! TWO, END the FAILED WAR ON DRUGS and within a week , the income that now goes to the DRUG CARTELS that our Government has been Money Laundering for and dealing with for DECADES will go to our Government and the CARTELS will cease to EXIST , and guess who else ?? Every GANG MEMBER in the USA will be OUT OF WORK !!! AND the Prison population that people rob us blind for PROFIT that charge $40,000 per inmate per year will SHRINK too , what a concept ! THIRD cut our Military Industrial WASTE COMPLEX by 1/4 and we will still have a military 10 times larger than China who spends 5% of what we do on defense , and along WITH that , instead of occupying 175 countries , use our Military to secure OUR borders , Build infrastructure , and fix OUR Dams and Bridges and use them to DEFEND US IF NEED be instead of always having to have an ENEMY . When Russia collapsed the worst thing they did was leave us WITHOUT one , which is why we started the infinite WAR ON TERROR . Step back for one minute and see that we CREATED our own enemy ! While you all pontificate on what a “Liberal” is and why it must be their fault along with the President (which makes us look STUPID to the entire world by the way), and grasp that what we need to do is SETTLE our petty differences and work TOGETHER to FIX our Country before people like you are the reason it FAILS ! Have a nice day , all of you ! I pray for us all !

    • macgyver1948

      Richard…Wow, this is a very good history and economics lesson. Thank you for this. Reagan did indeed help create the Taliban and Al QAEDA because he was concerned about world Communism. Reagan was known as the tax and spend Republican so it is always funny how that is left out too of Right Wing agendas when they complain about Obama’s spending. Also, Nancy Reagan has the second highest number of personal assistants with around 20 or so of them. That I added because of how childish, and hateful, I see the complaints about Mrs. Obama’s number of assistants.

      We should know how much the little bush jr is still costing us with his wars and huge gifts of our money he gave to his very wealthy buddies, as well as his budgets. Stuff billed as “temporary” tax breaks in order to be passed should die out when their term is up and not go on costing us. That is unless they were helping us but they so obviously are not.

      What is also funny, as you point out of those who hate him is how Obama is a Fascist/Nazi and a Commie when those two groups hated each other so which is he? Also it is want to be forgotten while Communism is far extreme Left the Fascist/Nazis were/are far extreme Right.

      Also funny is the Muslims would not be aligned with Satan so not to offend God/Allah and to associate Obama with Satin, if it is claimed he is the Anti-Christ or in league with Satan, is not only absurd but so ignorant.

      All that is funny logic on the parts of those who say and believe those things because they do not see the contradictions but also so childish in their attitude when they get so angry and insulting because we do not believe it. But I suppose to be hateful and blind all that goes along with the phony proof they are told to believe about Obama in many areas.

      Obama is not perfect for sure but at least he appears to be working for all of us and not only the very wealthy and the big corporations. Thanks again for the history reminders. Also we do spend so much more on military works than we should, there is so much waste and danger in a lot of what they do. Although I believe we should not be the cops for the world we also cannot be isolationists again as the Paul’s would want. If we forget our international friends why should they remember us when we need them? The Military budget is way too high and there are so many better things we should be doing with an intelligent smaller military budget and still be the toughest guy on the world’s block but nicely.

      • matforce

        Great post macgyver1948! Your expose of the faulty thinking of the right, is almost funny, if it wasn’t so sad.
        “Life is a comedy for those who think,
        A tragedy for those who feel.”
        ~Horace Walpole~

        • macgyver1948

          matforce… I am just saying what I think, and believe. As Horace Walpole might include it is also a tragedy for those who do not, or will not, think for themselves, just take direction. We see that all to often form many who speak for and from others and I think that is Right, or not right depending on ones slant. LOL…

      • Charlie

        Mac, Frank,,..
        You 2 BB brain Jews need more KJV Bible education ,,,so,,, here’s a few “Scriptures” to read , and you tell Me what they mean…Who is Isaiah talking about at Isaiah chapter 11?
        Who is The Almighty God talking about at Isaiah chapter 53 ? Who is Jeremiah talking about at Jeremiah chapter 33 ? What Kingdom is Daniel referring to at Daniel 2:44,45 ?
        Then read Matthew 6:33 … Meanwhile ………………..
        Praise King Jesus for Salvation and Healing… Acts 2:38 is salvation…

        Charlie Freedom

        • macgyver1948

          Charlie,,, You really want to do this, do you? This is even though we may have different interpretations? Since it is the Hebrew Bible I go by I will try with it.
          Isaiah Chapter 11 יְשַׁעְיָהוּ
          Isaiah says so much in his 16 verses so please get specific…
          Isaiah Chapter 53 יְשַׁעְיָהוּ
          Here there are 12 verses so should I paste them all here too?
          Jeremiah Chapter33 יִרְמְיָהוּ

          26 verses in this chapter.

          You Charlie would make a lousy teacher. No student would respond to such a vague request unless it was for a paper or a punishment.
          Daniel Chapter 2 דָּנִיֵּאל

          Here at least you get specific enough to know where you might mean.
          44 And in the days of those kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed; nor shall the kingdom be left to another people; it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, but it shall stand for ever.

          Could this be the Kingdom of Israel? :-)

          45 Forasmuch as thou sawest that a stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it broke in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter; and the dream is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure.’ {P}

          Nebuchadnezzar was the king of the Chaldean (also known as the Neo-Babylonian) Empire

          There is no Mathew in my Bible and I do not currently have a Christian Bible. Please be intelligent enough to remember that I do not believe in what your Bibles say because they are not my bibles any more than the Karon is your bible but I would read them for academic purposes, I have read them. You simply continue to be funnier with your attempts, in a sad why anyway. Give it up since you are not convincing in your bigotry. I am no Bible expert but I can see contradictions when they show themselves. You just aren’t good at what you do and I do not need to be since I am not so hell bent on converting the world as you are even though you do not understand liberty, freedom or whatever you are trying to do. I have no need to convince anyone of anything but you sure seem to. Get some help you fanatical nut, I feel so sorry/pity for you and those like you…

        • Frank Kahn

          I have told you before, Chucky, when you start answering my original questions, I will participate in your discussion. But stop the inane questions.

    • Right Brain Thinker

      A double WOW to Richard. And macgyver chips in with an intelligent response, giving us a LONG stretch of sane dialogue. That’s not seen often on PLD. Will wonders never cease?

      A terrific rant, Richard, and you have hit nearly every last nail squarely on the head.I would quibble only with your Medicare Part B reference, and suggest that you meant to refer to Part D, the Medicare drug benefit, which former U.S. Comptroller General David Walker has called “the most fiscally irresponsible piece of legislation since the 1960s”. Along with the two wars and the tax cuts that did not trickle down (again), Part D is a major portion of the deficit and the debt, as you have already reminded us.

      The connection between the Taliban, Al Qaeda, Russia and Reagan as you stated it seems to be that we funded our future enemies because we wanted them to weaken Russia for us via the Russian-Afghan war—the old “the enemy of my enemy is my friend” thing. I would add to that the thought that Reagan also “created” the belief among bin Laden and his cohorts that the U.S. was a paper tiger when he allowed the Beirut Marine Barracks bombing to go unpunished in 1983. Al Qaeda might have thought twice about coming after us if he hadn’t done that.

      (Pardon me for injecting what is one of Reagan’s major sins here but IMO it doesn’t get talked about enough)

      Let me suggest that you copy your comment to a Word document and save it for reposting at an appropriate time and place on a relevant future PLD thread. This one is dying out, as most on PLD do after just a few days, and your comment will likely not be seen by too many more here. It’s worth repeating.

    • randygr

      Rchard…this stuff you are talking about was happening long before Reagon got into office…Its been going on since the late 60′s and Obama is still the one spending everything he can get his hands on…Only thing that will take him out is us…PERIOD>>>

    • matforce

      Great, comprehensive post, Richard.
      I would add that neither the left, and especially not the right, has come up with a plan to steer the fabulous wealth that our nation’s top earners have monopolized over the past 30 years, back into an investment schematic that benefits both the fat cats with all the dough specifically, as well as the prosperity of our great nation, generally. To watch America the Beautiful, land of opportunity, bright and shining star, envy of the world, descend into a mere Plutocracy would be sad beyond description, if it weren’t so damned infuriating!

      • macgyver1948

        matforce… Richard’s comment is a reminder that many on the Right would rather tell us what we are about and think than to allow us our own feelings and thoughts. Is that real Liberty on their part? This is also so with any who say Obama is a Muslim or Fascist/Nazi/Commie.

        I agree with you that “neither the left, and especially not the right, has come up with a plan to steer the fabulous wealth that our nation’s top earners have monopolized over the past 30 years, back into an investment schematic that benefits both the fat cats with all the dough specifically, as well as the prosperity of our great nation, generally”. We need to get both sides to do the job we elected them for and not just pander the the very wealthy at our expense. I see one side doing this so much more than the other but they both do it. I voted for the side who is more so in line with our needs than the very wealthy’s but that was just a “less of the evils” choice I fear. We all need to fix that.

        “Plutocracy” is the correct term for what we have become and our Politicians have help those who are that make our country that way. I feel it is a joke nick (the joke being on us) name for the “GOP” and a more accurate one for them would be GOCP, Government Of the Corporate People. “Plutocracy” is the spirit, structure and cause of our class warfare. It is “sad beyond description” and, again, we have to stop it.

  • Randy Griffin

    If you people can’t tell, it almost time to do something or we lose this country because we have already lost the first part ot it. Now we just have to either lose or win the second half…What do we do now???

  • matforce

    Tax (revenue) rates have been at an historic low for 30 years now. Is it a mere coincidence that our burgeouning national debt coincides with a 30+ year trend of offshoring jobs to sweatshop labor abroad? Bills that grant our “multinaional” corporations free access to these sweatshops (FTAs), or rather, have incentivized it with tax credits, exemptions, write-offs, loopholes, etc., to the tune of $Hundreds of BILLIONS of tax dollars/yr., which has availed them record profit margins over approximately the same time period, have been overlooked, and under-reported. Instead, we point our finger at those who’ve had the rug pulled out from under them (their jobs), namely, those in the middle class who’ve decsended into the ranks of unemployment/underemployment or into the ranks of poverty because they played by the rules, dictated to our elected officials by the wealthy and powerful.

    • macgyver1948

      matforce… Very nicely stated and truthfully so too. I think you are preaching to the wrong choir because they, the TPGOP, do not want us to know this stuff because truth will get in their ways. Thanks for posting it though.

  • http://midcontent ridge runner

    mac and mat,… What a load of libatard BS. What sorry bunch of socialist/communist keep giving away taxpayers’ money, the dumbocrap party. The same damn group who is in bed with the Wall Street crooks, and write the laws on taxes for the citizens to obey. If they don’t follow all the rules, jail time and fines are inflicted, whereas Dems are allowed to escape any jail time or fines. Greasy Rangel scammed taxpayers for years, as did Tom Daschle, Turbo Geithner, all got off scott free.. Since Onumnutts and his domestic terrrorists of the ( The Democrat Party) have been in control of government. Unelected idoit agencies are now cranking out 90 new regs a day 24/7, facts you can get from GAO. The Dudd?Flanks Banking Bill isn’t even half implemented, because when totally enacted, there will be only one bank, controlled by appointed the marxist/communist friends. The whining about big corps look at who sits on the boards and all are on other boards. When mush brained Hillary sat on Wal-Marts board of directors, wages were froze and the idea of government health care was floated. After Whorehound Willy left the WH with truck loads of stolen property, all his appointees went to Wal-Mart’s directors. End result was lower wages for floor workers and upper management kept making way more than the shulbs on the floor. Also the big growth in corporations, was under total democrat control of all 3 branches of government. As for the BS about jobs going over seas and sweat shop jobs, tthank the worthless idoit union supporters and regulation idoit drafters and their book trained ticket writers. Time for you 2 to create a real job for just your selves, and get in the real world.

    • Deerinwater

      ridge runner say, “Also the big growth in corporations, was under total democrat control of all 3 branches of government. As for the BS about jobs going over seas and sweat shop jobs, tthank the worthless idoit union supporters and regulation idiot drafters and their book trained ticket writers. Time for you 2 to create a real job for just your selves,
      and get in the real world.”

      Since I have not a clue as to when your “real world” understanding took effect ridge runner or what big really is to you. I am left only to address your last sentence to which would say , Bravo! That is what I”m been trying to get across to people for years.

      People must Quit wasting their life away waiting for some rich man to offer them a job!

      Grow a pair and take full advantage of what you do have , what you do possess, develop some “Can Do!” about themselves, find a need and fill it!

      There is no shortcut to success, Quite attempting to win you way by capitalizing on the Bad luck of others or some luck of the draw. Work! Do something! Invest in yourselves.

      The reason a wealthy man is wealthy is not because he is free with money. You will have to work for his money, ~ what is stopping you to work for your empire?

      Do you need permission? ~ I give you permission.

      Hop too it Monkey Boy! Chop! Chop!

    • matforce

      Feel free to research any and all of these claims; I did:

      After 30 years of record low tax rates (see marginal rates of pre-1980s), “corporate welfare” to the tune of $hundreds of BILLIONS/yr. to offset liabilities incurred in offshoring our manufacturing facilities in China, et.al, and a right wing, whose objective is to starve our government of revenues, is it any wonder why we have astronomical debt?

      Google: USA treasury record of national debt for a year by year tally of federal red ink.

      During the last half of the 20th century (1950 – 2000) debt began accumulating in the $ Billions (a few years in the ’50s, there were actually surpluses). By the ’70s it grew by $ Tens of Billions, but after 1980, the advent of “supply side” economics, national debt grew by the $100 Billions/yr. Then during the 1990s, when Clinton raised tax rates, it slowed to the $ tens of Billions again, during which time there were actually surpluses again.

      But once the FTAs were introduced, (actually it took a few years after their introduction), national deficits reached the $ 100s of Billions from then on. Here’s my point: The increase in national debt once Red China joined the WTO in 2001 reached over $500 Billion/yr. from then on and has not diminished. During the 20 century, our Government spending has grown, yes, but revenue was cut to record lows, in my opinion, in an ill-advised attempt to starve the beast.

      Google Trade Deficits: The USA has gone from steady trade surpluses before 1975 to trade deficits that have averaged at least $600 Billion/yr. over the last 10 years. This is an unsustainable result of BIG $$$ pushing for unfair trade policies (FTAs) in our legislature that has pitted our relatively high wage workers against sweatshops offshore (China= $1.36/hr. avg. wage) to compete for jobs, while at the same time, allows these cheap products to roll up on our shores daily in Maersk freighters with payload capacities of 2.2 million train-car sized “containers” to soak the USA market and fleece a middle class consumer which has been forced to succumb to the downward pressure on their wages that has been exerted from these very policies that the wealthy have pushed our legislators to enact!

    • matforce

      BIG $$$’s influence in our legislature to steer the consolidation of wealth to the top is resulting in a new form of America that is no longer one of opportunity, but one where those who work in the realm of labor, are kicked to the curb and displaced by large scale Plutocratic greed that emphasizes maximizing their retruns with no regard for nationality, a complicit legislature, bought and paid for, and a growing population slipping into poverty because they played by the rules. These workers, many of whom do not have a propensity for creating their own “empire” through entreperneurial savy or genius, or who have selected a career of to serve others, or have only the skilled use of their hands to garner wages are being expected to just lay down any defense against this “economic treason,” accept their fate, and martyr themselves for the sake of The Divided States of Plutocracy because it’s dog eat dog, every man for himself, and only the strong survive among the quick and the rest are dead.

      The fact is, corporations are making record gains and are sitting on over $5 Trillion of cash garnered mostly from a declining middle class consumer market that is witnessing more and more of its constituents slipping into poverty in recent years. The nation’s wealth isn’t being “redistributed” from the wealthy to the poor through a burdensome tax code pitted against the rich, quite the opposite. Here’s why I say that:

      The great wage disparity that has occurred over the past 30 years has consolidated wealth at the top like we haven’t seen since the days of the Robber Barons a century ago. Maybe you think that there’s something wrong with a USA that promoted all of its citizens’ prosperity, but I don’t; it’s smart business. A middle class with disposable income will bolster retail sales and crank up the economy (that is: if this production increase actually boosts production in the USA and results in paychecks going into the pockets of USA workers like it used to do before the middle class was kicked to the curb for sweatshop labor on foreign soil).

      Even so, during the past 30 years real output in the business sector grew by 140%. Real compensation per hour (includes wages, benefits, pensions, and health insurance) increased by only 38% for the middle class worker.
      Post WWII, 1947-1979 America shared equally in the increase in output. During those years the increase that the bottom 20% received was 116%, the top 20% got an increase of 99%, and the middle quintiles increased somewhere within that range.
      Then the world flipped! From 1980 to 2007 the rich took practically all the increase in income. Over those decades, the poor received only a 15% increase and the middle three quintiles got a 25% increase, while the top 20% got a 95% increase and the top 1% received a raise of close to 300%, and they were compensated fabulously before that. (Paul Heise, PhD, Economics).

    • matforce

      Unions? (another target of the right) My take on that issue is this: A USA middle class working stiff with a decent pay and some disposable income will use that disposable income to buy, buy, buy. THAT is the demand side of the “supply and demand” formula in economics 101. 30 years of Supply-side, trickle-down economics hasn’t worked for the reasons I have tirelessly cited. Some say the Unions over-reached, but I could find few instances where a corporation’s management teams’ exorbitant compensation packages (CEOs, Board of Directors, Board of Trustees, executives, hired experts, marketing teams, department managers, and sales teams) didn’t contribute to those corporation’s demise with their heavy wages and compensation packages that helped run them into financial trouble. Some off the top examples:

      Exhibit #1: US Steel- When faced with decisions to re-tool and update outdated methods and equipment that were left go for far too long, at a time when Japan was dumping cheap steel in the USA at a price they couldn’t even make it at, just to get a foot in the door of the world’s biggest economy, they were also facing labor disputes with the union, which was demanding that negotiations be conducted in good faith by having management open the books. Management knew what that would reveal, so they refused, so the Union refused their offer. Management had 3 choices:

      1. Open the books and deal in good faith; both management and labor take a shared hit. Didn’t happen.

      2. Pass the increase on to their stocks and stockholders would be forced to take a hit. That was out of the question.

      3. Pass the increase on to their product. Steel went under, management left with their golden parachutes, and stockholders with diversified stock options survived, but labor lost out like always.

      Exhibit #2: Hostess just went out of business. A quick study of that would show that Hostess was in bankruptcy in 2004, after which their workers made concessions in wages and benefits. During this most recent bout with bankruptcy, they’ve conceded another 8% in wages, and 32% in benefits. The real story of why Hostess failed comes from (ready for this?) the Wall Street Journal, who always sticks up for business, (in this case a hedge fund firm that bought up Hostess) over people; they identified mismanagement including a CEO whose pay increased 300%, executives who received pay increases from 60% to 100%, and a decision to stop paying into workers’ pension funds which is now $160 million in arrears. So now the hedge fund firm is eying liquidating the company in a way that will maximize profits for these investors (vulture capitalism).

      Exhibit #3: Saved the best for last- Sensata out of Freeport, Illinois made $500million profits in the last quarter of this year, but larger profit margins beckoned in China. Sensata wants to close its door in the USA, but insists that the USA workers also TRAIN their Chinese replacements. The company will fly them into the USA for their training. Priceless!

      Below is a cite that breaks it all down in charts, graphs and research, so don’t take my word for it, check this cite (all their work has its citations listed at the bottom) and pass it on also.

      http://www2.ucsc.edu/whorulesamerica/

      • matforce

        Meant to say Sensata made $500 million in profits in the last quarter of last year… stll there?

    • macgyver1948

      ridge runner…. Since you do not seem to speak as an adult and can only respond with name calling as a dim witted spoiled angry child would I will try to keep this brief so you might understand.

      It is both sides of the political aisle who are in bed with Wall Street, not at all just the Democrats. If you want to talk about one sided efforts, where that one side is in Business so totally for the benefit and protection of the very wealthy and the corporations it is the TPGOP with their actions, words and their conflict-of-interest pledges. Talk about working for a Plutocracy and there is the TPGOP, all at the expense of the UN-wealthy.

      For you to see the Left as “socialist/communist “ clearly shows that you and those like you are so brainwashed in your thinking and to add to that you express your guided and programmed hate with that childish anger I mentioned above. You very much sound like a hate campaign which sounds like all the other programmed hate campaigns coming out of the TPGOP. If you cannot speak as an adult how can you expect to be respected for your views? No one can communicate with your kind of commenting so why should anyone bother to try? How can you expect to participate in adult exchange when your words are driven by your insults and programming? Have some tea before you brain wakes and grows up, the TPGOP could have you ignoring your programming.

      By the way, who do you think is keeping wages and employee counts low? It ain’t the Dems but it is the greedy big corporate exes with loads of support from the TPGOP. Payroll is an expense and keeping expenses way down is one of the major goals of execs. So they do that by fighting against minimum wages, cheapening benefits and making people unemployed when their accountants tell them to with support from their friends in the TPGOP. Remember things like “If you are unemployed it is your fault” or “If you are poor it is because you want to be”. Those are just a couple of BS apathetic comments made by TPGOPers in support of the Big Corporations. The TPGOP has to give their owners/controllers what they want.

      My response to you is longer than I thought it would be. I hope you are capable of understanding it all. Oh, I do not care if you agree or not, I know what I said here is true and I do not even exaggerate. Also, you are assuming I need a job and that I am dependent (you end your rant with “Time for you 2 to create a real job for just your selves, and get in the real world”. Good for you and your programming since you can’t seem to live without it. The TPGOP will love how you respond to their programming but they will want you only for your vote and then nothing from them for you if you are not very wealthy or a big corporation. Aren’t you glad you started this?

  • Jerry

    Look, I’m sorry but I have to respectfully disagree with the premise that we got “stuck” with a tax “increase” via the payroll tax holiday expiration. We all knew (or certainly should have known) going in that the reduction was temporary. One of the few times our glorious leader has not lied to us.

    Why not be honest about this issue and clarify the terminology: this is NOT a tax “increase”, it is a tax “restoration”. AND the “temporary” reduction was a serious mistake in the first place. It didn’t stimulate anything except for bringing forward the time when Social Security officially goes bankrupt.

    • mamba

      Does it really matter what it is called? The bottom line is less money for people who work for a living while everyone else got a raise, including the POTUS! The hard working middle class family will now have LESS money each month, which means having to cut back and do with less while our government only continues to spend more and more and more. Thank you so much heir Obama. Sincerely.

    • Motov

      Jerry the last thing we need is a tax hike! The morons in power will take a license to spend even more, We have a spending problem,… not a revenue problem,.. and congress spends wastefully! And our moron in charge wants to spend us off the face of the earth.

  • Bimbam

    My people are destroyed for LACK of knowledge – so say the Eternal from His book of knowledge.

    If you read it it states that is what a “King” will do! He will tax and tax and take the best of your resources and enlarge is retinue.

    You people are so gullible and stupid to repeat the miss-takes of your ancestors.

  • HKaufman

    Only one branch is sticking it to everyone- The House— AND I TOLD YOU SO,AND I TOLD YOU SO, AND I TOLD YOU SO,,, THIS IS WHAT WOULD HAPPEN… Niow how does it feel now ??? Keep bending over and showing your dark side and sing thank you House may we please have another.. TOLD YOU SO!!!!!!! Keep on reading Root and the rest of these journalistic non truths, root pulls articles out of his other brain located just below his waist .. “TOLD YOU THIS WOULD HAPPEN TIME AND TIME AND TIME AGAIN.. REDUNDANT,REDUNDANT,,

    • macgyver1948

      Hkaufman… WOW, I wouldn’t word it exactly as you do here but I agree. The House is killing us because they are owned by the TP and is controlled by the Norquist Pledge. They have to do as they are told by him or they lose their futures. He says so. Oh, if we lost the Senate in this last election we would really be done in. Watch the filibuster continue to do its damage for them.

      And I agree with you about people like Wood, Rush and others being the (Wayne Allyn) Root of the problems in media. We cannot believe anything they say because their is so much they say that isn’t true we wouldn’t know the little that might be when they say it. I was just having fun in this paragraph in how I phrased it but it is true anyway.

  • Bill

    Somebody is going to get killed with bobs partners trying to teach self defence. I hope people realize that fly by self defence schools are a fraud and a scam. You can’t learn to defend yourself in no less then 4 years minimum. That guy teaching it has a lot of nerve saying what he says. I also bet he would never say it to any real self defence teacher, ever. Go to a real school, learn an art and stick to it. The west got lucky certain poeple came over and started to teach what was then a secret and only to be tough to their cultures. Too bad for them because the west perverted it really well.

  • thefiledocument

    Another thing, do you people really think that you will have electricity and water in a real emergency? The best way to survive a fight is not to be there.

  • Emmett

    Millrider says:

    My fellow Patriots it’s time to wake up. Our government has screwed the American people again. What a surprise.
    It’s time for revolution, time to get rid of this government at the local, state, and federal levels. “NOT BY ARMED FORCE.” That won’t work this time, like it did for our forefathers. But they did leave us a very powerful weapon. That weapon is “The Vote”.
    It doesn’t matter who you vote for this past November, your taxes just went up, and not just for the rich, for everyone.
    We must not vote for any current politician that holds office, they just raised our taxes, wake up America. Vote for the other guy that lost the election, or the new guy or gal trying to brake into the political arena. The message will be clear to them, start doing what “We the People” want or, “We the People” will vote them out of office at the very next election. Once they realize that holding a political office is not a life time job, they will start doing what “We the People” want.

    It’s not too late to stand up and fight.
    One of “We the People”

    • Motov

      I say vote for the guy that does NOT have a gazillion bucks to flood the airwaves with their advertising. More often than not their “contributions” are from very rich fat cats who will get the biggest piece of the pie once their candidate takes office.
      Instead vote for the little guy who gets their support from people like us. They will most likely represent us, and not elite.

  • Norma

    Seriously, who represents the American people? It’s clearly not the people who were elected. They represent? …themselves and make sure that they stay in power. I’m a huge proponent of term limits for all of them, senators and representatives alike. They get too comfortable and forget that they work for us. Also, there’s no reason that their pensions should be so much higher than the average American and that their medical coverage is better either.

    • macgyver1948

      Norma… Excellent, very good and I agree with all you say here, not that you need me to….

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