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Atheists Claim ‘Religion Is Unpatriotic’

July 6, 2012 by  

Atheists Claim ‘Religion Is Unpatriotic’
SPECIAL
The American Atheists flew a banner over New York City on Independence Day.

Fireworks weren’t the only thing in the sky on Independence Day. The American Atheists flew a banner over New York City that read, “Atheism is Patriotic — atheists.org.”

The organization wanted people to take a picture of the banner as it flew by New York City landmarks, such as the Statue of Liberty, Freedom Tower and the Empire State Building. The best photo will be used on the cover of American Atheist Magazine.

Dave Silverman, president of American Atheists, said in a press release: “Religion is unpatriotic at its core, because it places its law above the law of the land. Indeed, religion abhors civil law, which is why we see attacks against science and privacy coming from our religious politicians. Religion asserts itself on the population at large by infiltrating the political system with true believers who will then use the political system to do the church’s bidding.”

Last year, “American Atheists attempted to fly a banner in all fifty states on July 4th, but ran into discrimination from companies that refused to fly the banner.”

The group cites the First Amendment in its defense: “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof.”

“Since Patriotism is loyalty to one’s country, which is much more about its laws than its geography, religion is at its core unpatriotic to the American Way,” wrote Blair Scott on atheists.org.

Bryan Nash

Staff writer Bryan Nash has devoted much of his life to searching for the truth behind the lies that the masses never question. He is currently pursuing a Master's of Divinity and is the author of The Messiah's Misfits, Things Unseen and The Backpack Guide to Surviving the University. He has also been a regular contributor to the magazine Biblical Insights.

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  • CHRISTOPHER ALLEN HORTON

    ABOUT TWENTY YEARS AGO, I WAS A MEMBER OF, American Atheists. TO NOT BELIEVE IN DEITIES HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH POLITICS. THEREFORE, I LEFT THE GROUP. MY “POLITICS” ARE ROOTED IN MY ATHEISM; YET, I NEED NO ORGANIZATION TO VALIDATE MY VALUES. I DO NOT UNDERSTAND WHY American Atheists ARE STILL IN EXISTENCE.

    CHRISTOPHER ALLEN HORTON

    • former walmart person

      ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, my frackin’ ears. We hear you man, no need to shout.

  • Robert Smith

    “Religion asserts itself on the population at large by infiltrating the political system with true believers who will then use the political system to do the church’s bidding.””

    Absolutely true.

    The case about creationism in Dover, PA, clearly proves just how incidious the true believers are.

    BTW, they were all voted out of office.

    Rob

    • Ted Crawford

      From The Declaration of Independence; ” ..Laws of Nature and Natures God ” and ‘ .. support of this Declaration, with a firm Reliance on the Protection of divine Providence ”
      From some of our Founders; ” We have no Government armed in power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion . Our Constitution was made only for a relidious and moral people. It is inadaquate for the government of any other ” John Adams
      ” We’ve staked the whole future of American civilization not upon the power of government, far from it ! We’ve staked the future of all our political institutions upon our capacity…to sustain ourselves according to the Ten Commandments of God ” James Madison
      Don’t get me wrong, I’m not a Christian, I’m a Diest, but to deny that this Nation was founded on anything but Christian values is just completely disingenuous!

      • Robert Smith

        Not disingenuious, the truth.

        The founders had MANY foundations, religion ONE of that many, for how they set things up.

        To claim christanity exclusively is just plane nuts.

        Rob

      • TML

        Ted says “…but to deny that this Nation was founded on anything but Christian values is just completely disingenuous!”

        Authored by American diplomat Joel Barlow in 1796, the following treaty was sent to the floor of the Senate, June 7, 1797, where it was read aloud in its entirety and unanimously approved. John Adams, having seen the treaty, signed it and proudly proclaimed it to the Nation.
        “Art 11: … the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion…” – Treaty of Tripoli

      • confusedincalifornia

        You are so wrong. We are not, have never been, and hopefully will never be a Christian nation. If that were true, why put it in the Constitution, the document that actually lays out our government, the separation of any church and the state?

      • Illana Olsen

        confusedincalifornia: FYI the phrase “separation of church and state” is NOT in the constitution. It was in a letter written by Thomas Jefferson to the Danbury Baptists. The reason for this separation was to protect the church from the government, not the government from the church.

      • TML

        “The reason for this separation was to protect the church from the government, not the government from the church.”

        It was put in place to protect the church from the government AND the government from the church. Hence… “separation”. Thus… Congress can make no law respecting an establishment of religion, else we could end up having situations of despotism similar to Spanish Inquisitions, the Holy Roman Empire.

      • Robert Smith

        “The reason for this separation was to protect the church from the government, not the government from the church.”

        In your view. Others vary.

        Why do you insist on YOUR way is the only way to read something? Ohhhhhh, I get it! So much practice from interpriting your bible babble.

        Rob

      • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100001640884810 Lance Brofman

        And the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter
        -Thomas Jefferson, Notes on Virginia, 1782

        Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity.
        -Thomas Jefferson, Notes on Virginia, 1782

        ——————————————————————————–

        But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods or no God. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg.
        -Thomas Jefferson, Notes on Virginia, 1782

        ——————————————————————————–

        What is it men cannot be made to believe!
        -Thomas Jefferson to Richard Henry Lee, April 22, 1786. (on the British regarding America, but quoted here for its universal appeal.)

        ——————————————————————————–

        Question with boldness even the existence of a god; because if there be one he must approve of the homage of reason more than that of blindfolded fear.
        -Thomas Jefferson, letter to Peter Carr, August 10, 1787

        ——————————————————————————–

        Where the preamble declares, that coercion is a departure from the plan of the holy author of our religion, an amendment was proposed by inserting “Jesus Christ,” so that it would read “A departure from the plan of Jesus Christ, the holy author of our religion;” the insertion was rejected by the great majority, in proof that they meant to comprehend, within the mantle of its protection, the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and Mohammedan, the Hindoo and Infidel of every denomination.
        -Thomas Jefferson, Autobiography, in reference to the Virginia Act for Religious Freedom

        ——————————————————————————–

        I concur with you strictly in your opinion of the comparative merits of atheism and demonism, and really see nothing but the latter in the being worshipped by many who think themselves Christians.
        -Thomas Jefferson, letter to Richard Price, Jan. 8, 1789 (Richard Price had written to TJ on Oct. 26. about the harm done by religion and wrote “Would not Society be better without Such religions? Is Atheism less pernicious than Demonism?”)

        ——————————————————————————–

        I never submitted the whole system of my opinions to the creed of any party of men whatever in religion, in philosophy, in politics, or in anything else where I was capable of thinking for myself. Such an addiction is the last degradation of a free and moral agent.
        -Thomas Jefferson, letter to Francis Hopkinson, March 13, 1789

        ——————————————————————————–

        They [the clergy] believe that any portion of power confided to me, will be exerted in opposition to their schemes. And they believe rightly; for I have sworn upon the altar of god, eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man. But this is all they have to fear from me: and enough, too, in their opinion.
        -Thomas Jefferson to Dr. Benjamin Rush, Sept. 23, 1800

        ——————————————————————————–

        Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legislative powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should ‘make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,’ thus building a wall of separation between church and State.
        -Thomas Jefferson, letter to Danbury Baptist Association, CT., Jan. 1, 1802

        ——————————————————————————–

        History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance of which their civil as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purposes.
        -Thomas Jefferson to Alexander von Humboldt, Dec. 6, 1813.

        ——————————————————————————–

        The whole history of these books [the Gospels] is so defective and doubtful that it seems vain to attempt minute enquiry into it: and such tricks have been played with their text, and with the texts of other books relating to them, that we have a right, from that cause, to entertain much doubt what parts of them are genuine. In the New Testament there is internal evidence that parts of it have proceeded from an extraordinary man; and that other parts are of the fabric of very inferior minds. It is as easy to separate those parts, as to pick out diamonds from dunghills.
        -Thomas Jefferson, letter to John Adams, January 24, 1814

        ——————————————————————————–

        Christianity neither is, nor ever was a part of the common law.
        -Thomas Jefferson, letter to Dr. Thomas Cooper, February 10, 1814

        ——————————————————————————–

        In every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection to his own.
        -Thomas Jefferson, letter to Horatio G. Spafford, March 17, 1814

        ——————————————————————————–

        If we did a good act merely from love of God and a belief that it is pleasing to Him, whence arises the morality of the Atheist? …Their virtue, then, must have had some other foundation than the love of God.
        -Thomas Jefferson, letter to Thomas Law, June 13, 1814

        ——————————————————————————–

        Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them; and no man ever had a distinct idea of the trinity. It is the mere Abracadabra of the mountebanks calling themselves the priests of Jesus.”

        -Thomas Jefferson, letter to Francis Adrian Van der Kemp, 30 July, 1816

        ——————————————————————————–

        My opinion is that there would never have been an infidel, if there had never been a priest. The artificial structures they have built on the purest of all moral systems, for the purpose of deriving from it pence and power, revolts those who think for themselves, and who read in that system only what is really there.

        -Thomas Jefferson, letter to Mrs. Samuel H. Smith, August, 6, 1816

        ——————————————————————————–

        You say you are a Calvinist. I am not. I am of a sect by myself, as far as I know.
        -Thomas Jefferson, letter to Ezra Stiles Ely, June 25, 1819

        ——————————————————————————–

        As you say of yourself, I too am an Epicurian. I consider the genuine (not the imputed) doctrines of Epicurus as containing everything rational in moral philosophy which Greece and Rome have left us.
        -Thomas Jefferson, letter to William Short, Oct. 31, 1819

        ——————————————————————————–

        Priests…dread the advance of science as witches do the approach of daylight and scowl on the fatal harbinger announcing the subversions of the duperies on which they live.
        -Thomas Jefferson, Letter to Correa de Serra, April 11, 1820

        ——————————————————————————–

        Among the sayings and discourses imputed to him [Jesus] by his biographers, I find many passages of fine imagination, correct morality, and of the most lovely benevolence; and others again of so much ignorance, so much absurdity, so much untruth, charlatanism, and imposture, as to pronounce it impossible that such contradictions should have proceeded from the same being.

        -Thomas Jefferson, letter to William Short, April 13, 1820

        ——————————————————————————–

        To talk of immaterial existences is to talk of nothings. To say that the human soul, angels, god, are immaterial, is to say they are nothings, or that there is no god, no angels, no soul. I cannot reason otherwise: but I believe I am supported in my creed of materialism by Locke, Tracy, and Stewart. At what age of the Christian church this heresy of immaterialism, this masked atheism, crept in, I do not know. But heresy it certainly is.
        -Thomas Jefferson, letter to John Adams, Aug. 15, 1820

        ——————————————————————————–

        Man once surrendering his reason, has no remaining guard against absurdities the most monstrous, and like a ship without rudder, is the sport of every wind.
        -Thomas Jefferson to James Smith, 1822.

      • CHRISTOPHER ALLEN HORTON

        “Ted Crawford,”

        YES – THIS COUNTRY WAS FOUNDED ON CHRISTIAN VALUES. BUT, THE DECISION TO “BELIEVE” IS A PERSONAL ONE. PARENTS HAVE A RIGHT TO PASS THEIR RELIGIOUS VALUES TO THEIR CHILDREN – I WAS RAISED IN A NEGRO-MISSIONARY-BAPTIST CHURCH IN THE RURAL SOUTH. I MOVED OUT WHEN I WAS SIXTEEN. I WAS TOTALLY FREE TO ASK MYSELF IF, “God,” EXISTS; MY LIFE’S ANSWER IS, “NO.” I HAVE NO PROBLEM WITH PEOPLE IN POWER WHO WANT TO UTILIZE CHRISTIANITY AS A GUIDING FORCE FOR THIS NATION. WHETHER OR NOT TO PARTAKE OF RELIGIOUS THOUGHT IS A PRIVATE MATTER.

        CHRISTOPHER ALLEN HORTON

      • Rae

        Many of the leaders were Deist actually. It was rare for them to not have some type of Religion and Christianity was the majority. Our country was based on religious freedoms with a lot of Christian influence. Our religious freedoms are slowly but surely being taken away though. Especially for the Christians…and it’s only going to get worse unless people snap into reality and decide to make a difference. I don’t care what religion you associate yourself with or if you’re an atheist. Our Founding Fathers would be pissed right about now.

    • Dale on the left coast

      Rob . . . atheism is a RELIGION . . . you have to “Believe” there is no God . . . Belief is a religious exercise . . . since they cannot “Prove” God does not exist.
      Any casual reader of the founding documents has to come to the conclusion that the USA was founded on Judaeo-Christian Philosophies, as were many western democracies.
      Any state today founded on atheistic principals usually resembles Cuba or the USSR . . . mostly failed states.

      • TML

        Dale says, “atheism is a RELIGION . . . you have to “Believe” there is no God . . . Belief is a religious exercise . . . since they cannot “Prove” God does not exist.”

        Atheism isn’t a religion. There is no founding text, no doctrine, no dogma to which atheists adhere. It doesn’t require belief to say there is no god; it requires a lack of belief. Although I will say that it is quite stupid of an atheist to say there is no god, because it transfers the burden of proof upon them, which is where your confusion comes from. It is the Theist which makes the initial extraordinary claim that God exists, and extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Without it, there is no reason for an atheist to believe you. Understand? If you want to call an atheist out for saying there is no god, then spout the principles of the burden of proof, and watch the dumb look on their face, but don’t make yourself look stupid by saying atheism is a religion.

        Dale says, “Any casual reader of the founding documents has to come to the conclusion that the USA was founded on Judaeo-Christian Philosophies, as were many western democracies.”

        Well, as I mentioned directly above, the Treaty of Tripoli says directly that the United States government was not in any sense founded on the Christian religion. And I see no reason why a casual reader ‘must’ conclude that the Constitution and Bill of Rights hold any foundation in Judeo-Christian beliefs… In fact, I assert the opposite.

      • Butch

        Atheism IS a religion because one is required to have FAITH that Life created itself or that an explosion (the Big Bang), resulted in Order: two things that can NEVER be observed, measured or repeated in a lab according to the scientific method. Yes, it takes FAITH. The US was founded on Judeo Christian priniciples, thats why in the Declaration it says “Creator”, not “random chance”.

      • GALT

        Unfortunately, the Declaration is NOT the Supreme Law of the Land……..and I exist, that seems to be enough……..unless you believe that I shouldn’t?

        If we can both agree that “continued existence” is mutually acceptable………it would seem
        that we would have a “reasonable basis” on which to proceed……….

        So, do we have a “reasonable basis” on which to proceed……? Clear it up any for yuh?

      • TML

        Butch says, “Atheism IS a religion because one is required to have FAITH that Life created itself or that an explosion (the Big Bang)”

        I, who most here would probably consider as being an atheist, have no faith that life created itself or that a single explosion created all things. These things are nothing more than theories of thought, which can be altered, changed, or updated, based on reasonable interpretation of facts and other anomalies within the scientific methods that study them. I hold no blind faith to these ideas, as the religious hold a blind unreasoned faith that “God did it”. So no… it does not take faith.

        Butch says, “The US was founded on Judeo Christian priniciples, thats why in the Declaration it says “Creator”, not “random chance”.”

        Saying “Creator” in the Declaration of Independence does not in any way indicate that the United States government was founded upon the Christian religion or principles. Frankly speaking, saying Creator isn’t a principle of government. They may just as well be endowed by their humanity with certain unalienable rights.

      • CHRISTOPHER ALLEN HORTON

        “Dale on the left coast,”

        I STRONGLY DISAGREE. ATHEISM IS NOT A RELIGION. ATHEISM IS ABOUT BEING BORN WITHOUT A CARE ABOUT “HOW” OR “WHY;” AND DYING, WITH THE KNOWLEDGE YOUR BODY WILL SIMPLY ROT – NO Heaven/NO Hell. I HAVE NO NEED TO KNOW “WHY” OR “HOW” THE UNIVERSE WAS FORMED.

        CHRISTOPHER ALLEN HORTON

      • Vigilant

        TML and other atheists need to re-read the article, and this time don’t ignore the sentence, “[American Atheists] cites the First Amendment in its defense: “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof.”

        If this is indeed a defense, then they are tacitly admitting it is a religion.

        They are hanging their hat on the second portion of the clause, that Congress cannot prohibit “the free exercise thereof.” Within this context, they are plainly stating that Congress cannot prohibit the free exercise of their atheistic beliefs. And this is true. But no other interpretation of their statement is a “defense” unless they get snookered into admitting they’re a religion.

        TML, you are correct to the extent that neither atheist nor theist can state with authority that God either does or doesn’t exist. Such statements are neither true nor false, they are simply unprovable assertions.

        BUT, I think you stray, as have so many, in stating that “lack of faith” makes it a non-religion. It is not a negative statement, it is a statement of positive belief in a view of reality that does not include the metaphysical possibility of God. You simply believe that no EMPIRICAL test for his existence is available (and you are correct). Conversely, the theist (including the Deist) believes in the presence of a creator through intelligence, conscience, morality, etc., and that the existence of the creator may be inferred through reason (Jefferson and others of the Enlightenment school believed this). These are not empirically provable positions, to be sure, but simply state that scientific method falls short as a yardstick in describing reality.

        The most salient point in Jefferson’s iteration of Locke’s Enlightenment philosophy in the Declaration, i.e., the “unalienable rights” portion, is wholly dependent upon the acknowledgement of Creator-endowed rights. The Founders were not secular humanists, and therefore would never have espoused a position that mankind was ultimately perfectable. To deny that the expressed rights are immutable in nature is to say that only human beings have the keys to morality. The Founders railed against this in particular, knowing full well that history was rife with caliphs, kings, emperors and religious leaders claiming divine right while denying life, liberty and property since it they deemed it their province to determine right from wrong.

        Moreover, you would be caught in your own web of denial, since the immutability of Natural Rights is an abstract (metaphysical) concept that is not testable by purely empirical means. You must either assume a position that Natural Rights are changeable (secular humanist), or that they are unchangeable. If you think that they are unchangeable, then upon what scientific test would you base your conclusions?

      • CHRISTOPHER ALLEN HORTON

        “Vigilant,”

        SIR, I UNDERSTAND YOUR POINT IN REFERENCING THE ARTICLE.

        IF YOU WILL NOTICE, I AM THE FIRST POSTER IN THIS THREAD. I DID NOT READ THE ARTICLE. TWENTY YEARS AGO, I WAS A DUES-PAYING MEMBER OF, American Atheists – I KNOW WHAT THEY STAND FOR. MY ATHEISM IS A P-A-R-T OF ME; I HAVE NO NEED TO “PUSH” A POLITICAL AGENDA. I STOPPED GIVING THEM MY MONEY. [I was in my twenties; as they say, "I was young-and-dumb and full...."].

        CHRISTOPHER ALLEN HORTON

      • http://gravatar.com/bychoosing Jay

        Vigilant, brilliant post!

  • Charles Sproull

    There is no such thing as an honest atheist. (1) Everyone believes in God, but atheists aren’t honest enough to admit it. (2) Some believers understand by experience that God does exist, because they trusted the new birth procedure in Acts 2 or receiving an actual diving healing, and they received His promises that are described in the Bible. So if the God of the Bible does exist for believers, how can He not exist for non-believers? (3) Because the writers of our Declaration of Independence, and writers and signers of our Constitution all believed in God, and expressed their personal beliefs in those documents, “Christianity is patriotic.” (4) Our 1st Amendment rights guarantee us of our freedom to express (Christian) religious expressions, as private individuals or public (tax-payer funded) officials, on private land or public land, without establishing a state religion. (5) “Separation of church and state” is only intended to separate the administration of politics and religion, not to separate God’s influencer from our Government leaders. (6) ACLU and their partner organizations are trying to do what our 1st Amendment prevents Congress from doing.

    • Dennis

      I agree. Atheists worship the man god although they refuse to say it in those terms. I have never met one that didn,t.They do not tolerate other religions because to do so would acknowledge that their mangod is not the ultimate in charge to everyone.

      • Nadzieja Batki

        Atheism is a religion with its own doctrines, its own priests, its own accolades and followers.
        Atheists just have a grocery list of grievances against the God of the Bible. He just doesn’t seem to want to listen to them telling him what He should be.

      • http://www.facebook.com/agi.groff Agi Groff

        Don’t get sidetracked with side issues, watch this video and you will know what is wrong with America:
        You-tube USS LIBERTY Cover Up – Full Documentary – “The loss of Liberty”
        Watch the video, sign the petition!
        Do not be afraid to put your name on this petition, initiated by one of the survivors of the attack. We must all hang together, or else we will hang separately.
        It is time to “Come From The Shadows” (Joan Baez) and demand that truth and justice reign over this land.
        Watch: Loss Of Liberty on You- tube!
        Sign the petition:
        Google: Investigate the Attack on the USS LIBERTY PETITION

      • CHRISTOPHER ALLEN HORTON

        “Nadzieja Batki,”

        YOU ARE CONFUSING POLITICAL ATHEISTS WITH “EVERYDAY” ATHEISTS. AS I GO THROUGH MY DAILY LIFE, RELIGIOUS THOUGHTS N-E-V-E-R ENTER MY MIND. THE ONLY TIME I HEAR WORDS LIKE, “God” or “blessing,” IS ON TELEVISION OR WHEN I AM IN PUBLIC. THUS, “Ms. Batki,” I HAVE NEVER HEARD OF ATHEISTIC “priests, etc.”

        CHRISTOPHER ALLEN HORTON

    • confusedincalifornia

      You are so wrong. I worship nobody and nothing. I don’t believe in anything that I can’t see or that hasn’t been proven. I hate magic and don’t believe that a magic god lives in the sky or that a fallen angel lives in the earth (hell) We are born, we live then we die. That’s it. Oh, I do believe in myself.

      • http://Gmail.com Jim Shinn

        Why cant we all just get along.

      • Butch

        Since you must be an evilutionist, YES, you worship man and his fallible, fickle ideas. If you did not, you would be open to faith. You have FAITH that Life created itself and that from Nothing, Everything came. Now prove that using the scientifc method. You can’t, proving that you have FAITH that that’s how things happened. You don’t believe in things you can’t see or touch? Do youbelieve in Love? Love of yr wife, family, dog or beer? Great, now use the scientific method. YOU CAN’T.

      • Butch

        Excuse me, meant to type, PROVE that using the scientific method. its impossible.

      • CHRISTOPHER ALLEN HORTON

        “confusedincalifornia,”

        GREAT COMMENTS.

        CHRISTOPHER ALLEN HORTON

      • Gregg

        Ok that is it you just live a short life and then you die how utterly stupid that sounds. With out your belief in God means that you can kill anyone you wish cause since there is no God means you can do anything you want with out any consequences. So what is wrong with believing in God who is for peace and love and teaches you right from wrong. I would rather have a government for God then without cause a true believer will not steal your money and become greedy and use thier power against you..

      • CHRISTOPHER ALLEN HORTON

        “Gregg,”

        YOU ARE CONFUSING CRIME WITH SIN. OF COURSE, IF I MURDER SOMEONE, THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA SAYS I MUST GO TO JAIL. YET, WHEN I DIE, THE PUNISHMENT IS OVER.

        CHRISTOPHER ALLEN HORTON

  • Corkey

    Atheism is a religion also, so under their interpretation they too are unpatriotic. A denial of Gods existence is also faith based.

    • GALT

      It does not require “faith” to believe that for which there is “no evidence” for……..and there are many forms of theism……….and variations there of, all claiming to be TRUE…….and all requiring FAITH that they are TRUE…….which they can NOT BE.

      You may believe whatever fantasy you like…….or at least you could if the Bill of Rights, were actually in force……..which would require a reservation of rights under the UCC….
      by YOU.

      • former walmart person

        It does indeed take faith to be an aetheist: First Rule of Thermo: Matter-energy cannot be created or destroyed, only changed from on form to another. So, Einstein, how do you explain the current quantity of matter-energy in the universe?

        Second law of thermo: Overall energy quality is tending toward a “heat death of the universe” where it will eventually be the same temperature everywhere. Again, how do you explain the current state of energy quality out there?

        In my mind it takes faith to beleive the universe is just a complete random accident. It takes as much faith in my opinion to beleive the universe sprang into existence and wasn’t somehow created, then to believe a car randomly appeared in the woods without a human creator.

      • GALT

        That is a shame……….but I am not sure what you are having a problem with…….or why it would be my problem?

      • Butch

        Yr problem, one of many I suppose, is yr gullibility. Its absolutely silly to bleieve that Life created itself, or that an explosion (Big Bang) resulted in Order. Or that the most complex machine in the universe, the human brain, was a result of random chance. Or that the most complex code in the universe, DNA, was assembled by accident. Yet you don’t see a problem w/ yr FAITH? THAT’S the problem.

      • GALT

        All I need is the fact that I am………..and at the moment, would like to continue………

        You seem to have other ideas or problems……..which is all right with me, provided you
        don’t try to make them my ideas or problems……….

        Are you trying to do that? Butch?

    • TML

      Saying atheism is a religion is about as ignorant as saying religion is unpatriotic

      • Butch

        No, what’s ignorant is statements like yrs, simply because yr too stubborn and ignorant to acknowledge that yrs a foolish FAITH. It takes FAITH to believe that Life created itself. Unless you can prove it didn’t. Where you tehre when the Universe was formed/created? If not, you have FAITH that it happened by accident. Clear it up any?

      • TML

        Is it faith to reject the presupposition that an invisible pink unicorn created the universe?
        No. Again, I have no faith that life “created itself”, I just don’t see any supporting evidence that an invisible pink unicorn did it. So we are left with pondering how life came into being and develop theories of possibilities to which, I hold no blind faith.

    • CHRISTOPHER ALLEN HORTON

      “Corkey.”

      SOME AMERICANS SHOW THEIR PATRIOTISM MORE STRONGLY THAN OTHERS – LET’S SAY, BY JOINING THE MILITARY. TO SAY AN ATHEIST IS UNPATRIOTIC IS LIKE TELLING SOMEONE IF YOU DO NOT VOTE, YOU CAN NOT COMPLAIN. PAYING TAXES GIVES AMERICANS THE RIGHT TO COMPLAIN. LIKEWISE, FOLLOWING THE LAWS OF THIS COUNTRY GIVES ATHEISTS THE RIGHT TO BE PATRIOTIC (IF SO DESIRED).

      CHRISTOPHER ALLEN HORTON

  • Charles Sproull

    Corkey is correct. If you look up the dictionary definitions of all the Old Testament Hebrew words and New Testament Greek words translated “worship” you will see that it is more than a religious ritual people do at church on Sunday morning. Worship also includes what all people do for their “gods” each day of the week. What exactly are gods? Those things we love, admire, praise, fear and reverence most, that we give our strongest emotional attention to; that are awesome and impressive; that have the greatest influence over our words, attitudes, behavior and health; that we have faith in (trust and obey) to gain those things we hope for; that we bow down to in humble submission, that we depend on most for pleasures and satisfaction and that we fear to be without; these are our gods. Most people worship their vain imaginations, visualizations of body parts, activities and physical things created by mankind. But the highest quality of life is achieved by submitting to the GOD who created mankind to worship Him only (Ex 20:3-6).

  • Charles Sproull

    Also, (1) below the surface of all political and religious controversies, they are just conflicts between different combinations of good and bad emotions and attitudes; and (2) the promises in God’s word were the main motivation for people to separate themselves by 3000 miles of water from political religious tyranny in England and Europe. So, I believe Christianity (eg; praying in Jesus’ name before political meetings) is the best way to be a patriotic American.

  • Patriot1776

    As our Founding Fathers so aptly stated, “We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights…” This great nation was founded on Christian principles and was successful because God blessed this nation. As this nation has turned away from God with the removal of prayer from school, with the removal of the Ten Commandments from public places, and with the ongoing assaults on religious freedoms, God has turned away from America.

    Atheist have the rights to their beliefs, but to abuse the rights of Christians by mis-quoting the 1st Ammendment is as unpatriotic as it would be to persecute atheist for their non-belief in the living God.

    • http://Gmail.com Jim Shinn

      The Atheist movement is just plain mad at the world.I would like for some of them to see the love of god but the blind cant see until god moves them.You cant argue with a atheist does no good not until there eyes are opened by god.Love the sinner but hate the sin.

      • GALT

        Christianity would be the Great Commandment……..the second element of which is…..
        Love thy neighbor. So simple……..can’t you just feel all the LOVE?

  • Norm

    Religion is faith not fact.
    It’s great for the true believers. It’s fine for the non believers.
    It becomes evil when evil people decide what God thinks and what God’s wishes are.
    More people have died in religious conflicts than for any other reasons except natural causes.
    Keep religion as far away from politics as possible and we will have a far better country.

    • Liberty for All

      Norm: your claim “More people have died in religious conflicts than for any other reasons except natural causes” is nonsense. In the period for which there are reliable statistics, secular governments and non-religious conflicts have killed far more people than any religious conflicts ever did.

      • Norm

        I found in Google Answers, a web page that chronicles numerous human conflicts and includes a category for religious conflicts. The numbers are hazy, of course, when we’re speaking about conflicts hundreds or thousands of years ago when death tallies were not a priority or of mild interest like they are today.
        In short, 809 million people have died in religious wars. That is nearly a billion people.
        Often times, a retort is that secular ideals and Godless Communism have killed many more. It is true that Stalin, among others, slaughtered his own people by the millions during the industrialization of Soviet Russia. By comparison, 209 million have died in the name of Communism. Some 62 million died during World War II, civilian and military, on all sides. Conclusively, more people have died in the name of religion than in the name of Communism or Hitler, or the two combined times two.

        http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/warstatz.htm#RelCon

      • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100001640884810 Lance Brofman

        Which combatant army had the greatest numbers of Christain chaplains relative to the number of men in uniform? German Nazi Whermact. Also, the WWII Nazi newspapers constantly claimed that the war was a struggle between godless comunism and Christianity.

        Stalin was a memeber of teh Russian Ortgodox chrch and he and his childer were baptized in it.

        The North Korean government is actually a Confucianism theocracy which requires absolute obeidience to the father figure.

      • Liberty for All

        Here is a list of wars with the most deaths. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_by_death_toll
        The first one on the list that could fairly be called a religious war is the Thirty Years War. which comes in at #16 on the list. (5%-10% of the deaths in WW2).

        If you are going to compare all the deaths attributable to all religious conflict with something, it would be more apt to compare it with all deaths atteributable to conflicts for power, or all deaths attributable to border disputes or all deaths attributable to political ideology, rather than one single ideology of relatively recent invention.

        And no, Naziism a religious ideology, and the deaths it cause cannot be called a religious conflict. It is true that Hitler used religion when he thought it would help him, but he was generally hostile to religion, and, more importantly for purposes of this discussion, religion was not a motivating factor in his actions. In fact, even in the ‘religious conflicts’ religion was often a cover for political or economic motives and not necessarily the cause of the conflict.

      • Liberty for All

        Sorry for the typos in the above comment. It should read:
        Nazism is not a religious ideology and the deaths it caused cannot be attributed to to a religious conflict.

    • former walmart person

      I don’t know.. You could argue that the NAzi government, Stalin’s government, and MAo Zedung’s government were based around aetheism and these government slaughtered millions. If you follow natural selection to its logical conclusion, then we need to eliminate all the undesirables.

      • Robert Smith

        It wasn’t based upon atheism. “You could argue that the NAzi government,…”

        They proclaimed themselves to the the “Master Race” entitled to loard it over the rest of humanity.

        Sound familiar?

        Rob

      • http://gravatar.com/bychoosing Jay

        Robert: They proclaimed themselves to the the “Master Race” entitled to loard it over the rest of humanity. Sounds familiar?

        It sure does, exact sentiments presently emanating from the White-house. In case you aren’t aware, we currently have a president in the White-house who claims to be a Christian.

      • http://gravatar.com/catman11 coal miner

        Robert Smith,

        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malleus_Maleficarum
        The Malleus Maleficarum (Latin for “Hammer of the Witches”, or “Der Hexenhammer” in German) is a treatise on witches, written in 1486 by Heinrich Kramer and Jacob Spencer….

      • http://gravatar.com/catman11 coal miner

        Robert Smith,
        It was Jacob Sprenger.

      • http://gravatar.com/catman11 coal miner

        No way Jay,
        The Sun doesn’t revolve around the earth.If the world stop revolving around the sun a mere 24 hours,it would boil and would certainly be recorded by the ancients about such an event.

    • Dale on the left coast

      Norm . . . which “religion” has killed more people than any other?
      Why atheism Norm . . . 10′s of Millions . . . . USSR, Communist China, Pol Pot, and so on.

      • Robert Smith

        Bull exhaust.

        They were greedy little power hungry creeps with the means to do so.

        Religion had absolutely nothing to do with their actions.

        On the other side… Do you have your own autographed copy of the “Maleious Malificarum?”

        Mine isn’t autographed, but I do have a copy. It reminds me of just how christian christians can be.

        Rob

      • http://gravatar.com/catman11 coal miner

        Dale on the left coast ,

        A tyrant must put on the appearance of uncommon devotion to religion. Subjects are less apprehensive of illegal treatment from a ruler whom they consider god-fearing and pious. On the other hand, they do less easily move against him, believing that he has the gods on his side.
        ~ Aristotle (born: 384 BC died: 322 BC at age: 62)

      • http://gravatar.com/bychoosing Jay

        So coal, since obama claims to be a Christian, should we be worried?

      • http://gravatar.com/bychoosing Jay

        Robert says:They were greedy little power hungry creeps with the means to do so.
        Religion had absolutely nothing to do with their actions.

        Interesting, if religion be the cause of wars, and the absence of religion is the cause of wars; what then is the cause of wars?

    • http://gravatar.com/catman11 coal miner

      http://stellarhousepublishing.com/easter-resurrect
      As demonstrated in Christ in Egypt: The Horus-Jesus Connection, the springtime/ Easter resurrection myth occurred in Greek mythology with the tale of

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100002605707912 FreedomFighter

    Athiests are just confused with nothing to believe in but themselves and thus are always upset and depressed.

    Laus Deo
    Semper Fi

    • Karolyn

      FF – Do you know for a fact that all atheists are depressed and pset. Somehow that does not compute with me. Of course, I am not an atheist.

    • Robert Smith

      I’m neither an atheist nor a christian so does that make me only partially depressed?

      BTW, what is your degree in such that you can diagnose someone you’ve never met simply by labeling them?

      Rob

      • GALT

        Some people are just that cool, Robert……..and they usually have to hang with other cool people…..just to be sure.

      • http://gravatar.com/bychoosing Jay

        Is that why you’re here, Galt?

      • GALT

        Confused or concerned?

        Let’s see: Where are the (common) law and equity courts?

        Ring a bell?

        Why are you voluntarily paying “unconstitutional”, fees, fines, duties, imposts, direct and indirect taxes……..when their is no “lawful money” of account, with which to pay them?

        Don’t trust your fellow patriots to acquit you in a “court of law”?

        Why are you here Jay? Waiting for the call?

      • http://gravatar.com/bychoosing Jay

        Galt: Confused or concerned?

        On the contrary, Galt; amused, and tickled pink!

      • GALT

        Yes, shades of pink and red are probably your normal shades…….or they would be, if you knew any better………by the way you MISSED the CALL, twice so far….but hey you “volunteered”……..and it’s your money…….oops I mean “benefit”, or would that be a privilege, use of fiat currency……..???????

      • http://gravatar.com/bychoosing Jay

        Are you the shinning example of one who transcends the system, Galt? If so, how did you manage such a feat, is it by preaching to the choir?

      • GALT

        I ain’t a volunteer……and I don’t see a choir, just a bunch of “clueless” people who can’t read, but sure can complain………….and come here every day to do it………

        You want the Constitution back………you don’t need a gun or god, you need knowledge….
        and a little COURAGE………..the knowledge is FREE………the other thing, well I can’t help you with that………you have to STAND ALONE. ( guess the government is way smarter than you, because they figured out you wouldn’t be able to do that……which is why they set it up that way. )

        So Jay, whatever it’s costing you…..I guess it ain’t enough yet……..since it isn’t costing me anything and hasn’t for quite a few decades, I pretty much don’t care if you listen or not……and you have nothing to say that will ever matter to me, unless you can manage an intelligent question?

        http://www.supremelaw.org/authors/freeman/freeman4.htm

        Horsey still not thirsty yet?

      • http://gravatar.com/bychoosing Jay

        I stand corrected, my apologies.

    • Karolyn

      Neither religion, nor lack of it, are necessary for patriotism.

  • Gary

    I can not think of one founding father, who were patriots by the way, who would be patriotic to this government and its laws. Why you might ask? Most were God fearing people and not heel clickers (heil). To many atheists, their master is the government wear as Christians have a tough time serving 2 Masters, although NeoCons do with God coming in 2nd.

  • http://loboviejo.wordpress.com loboviejo

    Why “American Atheists?” To differentiate themselves from Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, Fidel? Atheism is a religion with a dogmatic requirement of belief in nothing. Secular humanism, back in the early sixties when I was at U of Denver, had the following analyis: “There is no god. Therefor, a rational life is the only alternative,” To lead a rational life they advocated a morality that would have been acceptable to Jonathan Edwards or Cotton Mather.

    Back in the seventies Jimmy Carter, who probably garnered more of the atheist vote (if there is one any more than a Catholic vote or a Methodist vote or whatever) than Ford, talked of a set of values higher than the law.

    A good secular humanist would, like Socrates, believe in ethics as being higher to law. Or are the “American Athiests” equating the State with a sort of semi-deity? Or are the equating atheism with worship of the State.

  • DavidL

    There is nothing inherently patriotic about any religion or belief system. I don’t get the substantive point of the banner. I would if it read “atheists are patriotic”.

  • Wyatt

    The very statement by this group is utterly retarded . One has only to read the Declaration of Independence , the Constitution and even our bill of rights . Buy making this claim , they themselve’s are unpatriotic as they are attempting to deny people who believe in God or a supreme being the very right to that belief .
    I also submit that to be a non-believer in God that you are an agnostic not an Athiest . For to be an Atheist , you can believe in Nothing , not even oneself . So what would these people know about anything Un-Patriotic . I submit that they are the un-patriotc ones by daring to challange that which was the very foundation of our Nation . America was just fine until all this athiest bull started creeping into our government . Now if they are so set against ous Christian foundations , I invite them to leave , depart our shores . I can guarantee they will find no other country that they will like better . And even if they found a place to set up their own country it would most assuradly be one not of laws but of chaos ! Their own self centered selfishness wouldn’t allow for anything less !

    • GALT

      You seem confused…….probably due to Mr. Nash’s terrible journalistic skills……since the banner does not say, “Religion is unpatriotic”……….but his headline does.

      The Constitution says “no religious test”……..which means “no religious test”, and “this constitution” as”the supreme law of the land”…………if you choose not to accept this…..
      then some might suggest that…..it is your “patriotism” that might be questionable……?

      • Liberty for All

        Galt: Perhaps you missed the 3rd paragraph:
        “Dave Silverman, president of American Atheists, said in a press release: ‘Religion is unpatriotic at its core’”

      • GALT

        I don’t think that’s what it says………..try reading it again………..”BECAUSE…..rest of quote”

      • Liberty for All

        I know what it says. My point was that, contrary to your suggestion, the article does support the headline. Athiests are claiming that religion is unpatriotic. Whether there is any basis for this claim is a separate issue and depends on the definition of patriotism. If patriotism is defined as loyalty to the state above all else (as these athiests seem to believe) or as acceptance of all parts of the constitution (which you suggest as a possible definition, though you not not explicitly endorse it) than there is some basis for their claim. If patriotism means what they claim it means, any religion should be upatriotic.

      • GALT

        No it doesn’t say that……….try again! If you accept that the Constitution is the SUPREME Law of the Land……..then we don’t have a problem……..if you believe that The Great Pumpkin supercedes the Constitution ( or any other fantasy )……then we do.

      • Liberty for All

        Galt: “No it doesn’t say that……….try again!” Could you please include some antecedents to go with your pronouns so I know which of my statements you are disputing?

        The sign says that atheism is patriotic, which is not the same as saying religion is unpatriotic, but the article also cites two sources, Dave Silverman and Blair Scott, saying that religion is unpatriotic.

        I accept that the Constitution is the supreme law of the land. But I believe in a higher law, and will choose to obey that, regardless of the law of the land. If you are anything like the Galt of Randian fame, you also believe in a higher law that supersedes the law of the land, you just don’t believe that God is its source.

        And, for the record, I do support the prohibition of religious tests, and the prohibition of religious establishment in the Constitution.

      • GALT

        Well then apparently, your Supreme isn’t Supreme…….which makes your claim both a contradiction and a lie……..and thank you for demonstrating that.

      • GALT

        Please do not tell me what I believe, and I also believe that Ayn Rand’s question was
        Who is John Galt?

      • Liberty for All

        My statement is neither a contradiction nor a lie. It is an assertion that truth and principles are superior to the law of the land, even the supreme (i.e. highest) law of the land. It would be a contradiction or a lie to claim to have principles, yet subordinate them to a changing document.

        I would not presume to tell you what you believe. I was trying to point out that loyalty to principles higher than the law of the land is not a concept that is unique to people who believe in God, and thought the reference to John Galt might resonate with you.

      • GALT

        You do understand the word SUPREME? It doesn’t look like it……….and you have no idea
        how absurd the actual reality of what has been does is……..but this might help.

        http://www.supremelaw.org/authors/freeman/freeman4.htm

        And I am far more evolved than John Galt……….but there has to be a reasonable basis for conversation………which means that words have to mean SOMETHING.

        From what I can see, they do not……….

      • Liberty for All

        If you are so much more evolved than John Galt, why is it you cannot understand that putting the word ‘supreme’ in front of ‘law of the land’ only implies that the constitution is superior to other laws of the land, and does not make it superior to truth, freedom, or the other principles on which it was based?

      • GALT

        Like I said…….words without meaning………use them all you want…….didn’t really understand the link………because you can “free” yourself……..in fact if you UNDERSTAND
        it……..that is the only thing you can do? FREE YOURSELF……..clever these people……
        knowing how HARD it is to stand alone……….and making it mandatory that that is EXACTLY what you have to DO?

        Now how would they KNOW you would be a ……..well you can fill that in. So, are we done yet?

      • Liberty for All

        So if the constitution were amended to eliminate the first amendment and require everyone to join the Lutheran church, you would no doubt convert because you accept the Constitution as the supreme law of the land, and supreme means supreme.

        And if the Supreme Court were to uphold laws restricting your right to express views that others might find offensive you would no doubt comply because it is the supreme court, and supreme means supreme.

      • GALT

        Since the Constitution you refer to is a FICTION, what it would mean is irrelevant, until you get it back……….then I might be concerned……….

    • Robert Smith

      I find it absolutely entertaining how so many who claim to not only be “christian” but oh so special christians who are opposed to gay marriage, women’s rights, are so willing to define others.

      When folks say who they are THEY ARE what they calim, just as you who advocate for that there hateful gay bashing crap using your brutal god as an excuse.

      Why should we believe those of you who want to define others over anyone else who wants to define themselves?

      Rob

    • Gregg

      Athiests are all talk but when it comes time to die they cry out to God..

      • GALT

        Really? You of course have evidence of this…….like a video of maybe Christopher Hitchens……….recanting???????

        Two things that are notable about true believers…..

        1.) Their faith having secured them “eternal paradise”, is so weak, that they also require
        everyone else to “believe “………………the same specific fantasy.

        2.) Not one of them seem to be in a hurry, to begin this “eternity”.

      • Robert Smith

        “2.) Not one of them seem to be in a hurry, to begin this “eternity”.”

        And when Jack Kavorkian offered to assist they put him in jail.

        When the people of Oregon decided to begin eternity early as an option the right wing went all a dither and tried to change it with Ashcroft on point.

        Seems to me they are speaking with a forked tongue.

        Rob

      • GALT

        Forked? You are much too generous…….

      • http://gravatar.com/bychoosing Jay

        Robert is much too silly….

      • CHRISTOPHER ALLEN HORTON

        “Gregg,”

        THAT IS A MYTH COMMONLY HELD BY “BELIEVERS.” WE ALL HAVE GOOD DAYS AND BAD DAYS. RELIGIOUS PEOPLE SEEM TO HAVE A STRONG BELIEF IN “DEATHBED CONFESSIONS.” WHEN ATHEISTS DIE, WE SIMPLY KNOW OUR TIME IS UP. IF YOU T-R-U-L-Y BELIEVE THERE IS NO “God,” THERE IS NO “TURNING BACK.” ALL THE “prayers” AND WISHFUL-THINKING OF OTHERS WILL NOT SATISFY AN ATHEIST’S NEED FOR C-O-N-C-R-E-T-E PROOF. THERE IS NO PROOF – SO, WHY WASTE TIME ON FAIRYTALES?

        CHRISTOPHER ALLEN HORTON

      • CHRISTOPHER ALLEN HORTON

        ALT” (6 JULY; 11:55 AM),

        YOU ARE ON POINT!

        CHRISTOPHER ALLEN HORTON

  • T. Jefferson

    Messenger College a Pentecostal led group, bought our apartment building and being the Christian’s they are, They are throwing all the families (All low and fixed level income) out after only a 30 day notice. This is forced on us by Wehner Multifamily LLC management company. This is so they can make it a dorm for their students at double the rent. Very christian of them dont you think?

    • Robert Smith

      The religion is getting money, not anything else.

      If their god is so powerful why don’t they give money away?

      Rob

      • Robert Smith

        Remember, water into wine, fishes and loaves of bread for the masses?

        Oh, and that mana from heaven thing!

        Rob

      • http://gravatar.com/bychoosing Jay

        Oh, and that creation thing. Oh, and the fact that i exist. Oh, and that i eat every day. Oh, and that i’m in good health. Oh, and that i have a roof over my head. Oh, i don’t think that i can take much more…when will this madness stop?

    • Ted Crawford

      it would seem that none of the current residents have leases or rental agreements that specify a lenght of time requirement . That’s one of the drawbacks to renting month to month. Neither you nor the landlord are bound beyond the month.
      The School clearly purchased it for the express purpose of turning it into a Dorm.. If anyone, besides yourselves, for not demanding a lease, are responsible for your situation I’d say it was your old landlords!

  • http://www.facebook.com/peter.akhonya Peter Akhonya

    In all arguments about Christians and Atheists does not make any sense because all humanbeings were created by one God the Creater of Heaven and Earth and everything therein.No way of deits and doctrines will change the creater’s laws.For example we Christians were telling worshippers that Scientists are not Godly people and many people believed that, Ok, when the Scientists invented vehicles (Cars) airplanes, trains etc.The question is that; Do we all use those things or they are from the Devil as people believed? All people should read and re-read God’s Commandments wherever they may find it and believe in him than arguments for nothing.

  • Norm

    “I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.”
    - Mahatma Gandhi

    • http://gravatar.com/bychoosing Jay

      What a bunch of suckers you all are, for allowing yourselves to be dragged into such a mindless, and idiotic exchange. Its quite clear that both groups suffer from blind hatred.

  • TML

    Religion is no more unpatriotic than atheism.

    “Since Patriotism is loyalty to one’s country…” Blair Scott

    I accept the definition of patriotism as that effort to resist government abuse of power. I reject the notion that patriotism means obedience to the state

  • joseph

    agin i have to bring up this point becouse you atheists wont site down and actually read the constitution. there is nowhere in that document that says seperation of church and state. most of you site there and spout off about thomasw jeferson put it in. ill try to explain. 1: no such phrase.
    2: jeferson didnt help write the constitution, he was the confederated states ambasador to france and only came home to be on wasingtons staff.
    3:the first amendment says congress shall make no law. congress is the only body of the federal government that can make law. the founders (including your and my beloved jeferson) wanted the states to have the overall power on the lives of the people in each individual state. why do you think each state has its own constitution? they ar’nt the same. the states did have the right to haveing a state run church if the people of that state were dumb enough to vote the wrong people in to power. i cannot remember (mabe somebody cam help joge my memory) there was a state that banned the catholic church. and catholics had to go under ground in order to practice their religon. you atheistst need to do less running at the mouth and more reading.

    • GALT

      not required to say in the negative….what is the obvious result of what it DOES SAY….
      That ” This Constitution…..is the SUPREME LAW of the LAND.”

    • TML

      joseph says, “there is nowhere in that document that says seperation of church and state.”

      The first Amendment declares that Congress can make no law respecting a religion, nor prohibit the free exercise of religion. While the document never uses the phrase “separation of church and state”, I think it impossible to a reasonable mind to negate that this clause creates an effective separation of church and state by removing the ability of the general government from interfering with (whether through prohibition or creating laws in favor) religion.

      Take note that upon the ratification of the Constitution by the many states, their own State constitutions were altered to coincide with such Amendments, as the reading of each will show.

    • CHRISTOPHER ALLEN HORTON

      “joseph,”

      THE Constitution IS NOT THE ISSUE. REMEMBER, SLAVES WERE FORCED INTO “Christianity” BY SLAVE MASTERS. THE Constitution IS NOT O-U-R DOCUMENT.

      CHRISTOPHER ALLEN HORTON

      • http://gravatar.com/bychoosing Jay

        Now slaves,(economic),are being forced into accepting secular-socialism. Not much has changed, hey dumbbell? Which raises the question; what ails man?

      • CHRISTOPHER ALLEN HORTON

        “Jay,”

        NEGROES ARE FORCED TO ABIDE BY THE LAWS. THIS DOES NOT MEAN WE BELIEVE IN (OR, SUPPORT) THEM. THE Founding Fathers (INCLUDING SOME PRESIDENTS) ARE CAUCASIAN “HEROES.” NEGROES DO NOT LIKE THEM – THEY OWNED SLAVES.
        [Many people on this site probably believe George Washington was a great president; yet, in "Mr." Washington's will, he did not free his slaves until after Martha's death. So, Negroes will ALWAYS know how the, "Father of Our Country," feels about US].

        CALLING ME A, “dumbbell,” HAS NO IMPACT ON THE AMERICAN-NEGRO MIND IN REFERENCE TO THIS ISSUE.

        CHRISTOPHER ALLEN HORTON

  • http://gravatar.com/catman11 coal miner

    Our Founding Fathers were not Christians

    Posted on 2011/12/10 by ATLAS | Leave a comment

    One of the many attacks on our country from the Religious Right is the claim that our country is a Christian Nation…not just that the majority of people are Christians, but that the country itself was founded by Christians, for Christians. However, a little research into American history will show that this statement is a lie. Those people who spread this lie are known as Christian Revisionists. They are attempting to rewrite history, in much the same way as holocaust deniers are. The men responsible for building the foundation of the United States were men of The Enlightenment, not men of Christianity. They were Deists who did not believe the bible was true. They were Freethinkers who relied on their reason, not their faith.

    If the U.S. was founded on the Christian religion, the Constitution would clearly say so–but it does not. Nowhere does the Constitution say: “The United States is a Christian Nation”, or anything even close to that. In fact, the words “Jesus Christ, Christianity, Bible, Creator, Divine, and God” are never mentioned in the Constitution– not even once. Nowhere in the Constitution is religion mentioned, except in exclusionary terms. When the Founders wrote the nation’s Constitution, they specified that “no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States.” (Article 6, section 3) This provision was radical in its day– giving equal citizenship to believers and non-believers alike. They wanted to ensure that no religion could make the claim of being the official, national religion, such as England had.

    The Declaration of Independence gives us important insight into the opinions of the Founding Fathers. Thomas Jefferson wrote that the power of the government is derived from the governed. Up until that time, it was claimed that kings ruled nations by the authority of God. The Declaration was a radical departure from the idea that the power to rule over other people comes from god. It was a letter from the Colonies to the English King, stating their intentions to seperate themselves. The Declaration is not a governing document. It mentions “Nature’s God” and “Divine Providence”– but as you will soon see, that’s the language of Deism, not Christianity.

    “And the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter. But we may hope that the dawn of reason and freedom of thought in these United States will do away with all this artificial scaffolding, and restore to us the primitive and genuine doctrines of this the most venerated reformer of human errors.” – Jefferson’s letter to John Adams, April 11 1823

    “. . . Some books against Deism fell into my hands. . . It happened that they wrought an effect on my quite contrary to what was intended by them; for the arguments of the Deists, which were quoted to be refuted, appeared to me much stronger than the refutations; in short, I soon became a thorough Deist.” Benjamin Franklin

    “All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit.” ~Thomas Paine

    “The purpose of separation of church and state is to keep forever from these shores the ceaseless strife that has soaked the soil of Europe in blood for centuries.” -1803 letter objecting use of gov. land for churches

    “Experience witnesseth that ecclesiastical establishments, instead of maintaining the purity and efficacy of religion, have had a contrary operation. During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What has been its fruits? More or less, in all places, pride and indolence in the clergy; ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution.” – Ibid, 1785~James Madison

    “Religious controversies are always productive of more acrimony and irreconcilable hatreds than those which spring from any other cause. Of all the animosities which have existed among mankind, those which are caused by the difference of sentiments in religion appear to be the most inveterate and distressing, and ought most to be depreciated. I was in hopes that the enlightened and liberal policy, which has marked the present age, would at least have reconciled Christians of every denomination so far that we should never again see the religious disputes carried to such a pitch as to endanger the peace of society.”
    – letter to Edward Newenham, 1792 ~George Washington

    • http://gravatar.com/catman11 coal miner

      The above post was by the MAAF.

    • http://boblivingstonpl.wordpress.com Bob Livingston

      Dear coalminer,

      You write: “Our Founding Fathers were not Christians.” You are incorrect. http://personalliberty.com/2010/02/11/the-hand-of-god/

      Best wishes,
      Bob

      • GALT

        It’s a good thing, the search for the “facts” didn’t end in 1776, or 1787, or 1789, 1791…or 2012………strange also that, the simple addition of the word “christian” would have solved all this “intellectual masturbation”……….

      • http://gravatar.com/catman11 coal miner

        Bob livingston,

        President Thomas Jefferson – “The Christian god can easily be pictured as virtually the same god as the many ancient gods of past civilizations. The Christian god is a three headed monster; cruel, vengeful and capricious. If one wishes to know more of this raging, three headed beast-like god, one only needs to look at the caliber of people who say they serve him. They are always of two classes: fools and hypocrites.”Incorrect?Thomas Jefferson,a Christian?I don’t think so.

      • Robert Smith

        ” If one wishes to know more of this raging, three headed beast-like god, one only needs to look at the caliber of people who say they serve him. ”

        I’ll agree with that one. All the violence, bigotry, and hate… Yup, quite a “caliber” of people.

        Rob

      • http://gravatar.com/bychoosing Jay

        Robert, i think you would fit right in. Perhaps even teach them a thing or two. You know, kick it up a notch.

      • GALT

        Those founders seem to be dropping like flies……….of course there are 56 of them…….

    • http://gravatar.com/bychoosing Jay

      coal miner says: Those people who spread this lie are known as Christian Revisionists. They are attempting to rewrite history, in much the same way as holocaust deniers are.

      Yet the quote you posted which you claim is of Jefferson, is nowhere to be found in Jefferson’s writing. It appears that, not only are you a revisionist, coal, you are also a slanderer. The apple doesn’t fall from the tree, hey coal?

      • http://gravatar.com/catman11 coal miner

        Wrong
        Wrong Jay,
        I founded it in three different sources.
        from the pen of John Adams, statesman, diplomat, member of the Continental Congress, signer of the Declaration of Independence, Vice-President under Washington, and Second President of the United States….

        “As I understand the Christian religion, it was, and is, a revelation. But how has it happened that millions of fables, tales, legends, have been blended with both Jewish and Christian revelation that have made them the most bloody religion that ever existed?” — John Adams, letter to F.A. Van der Kamp, Dec. 27, 1816

        “I almost shudder at the thought of alluding to the most fatal example of the abuses of grief which the history of mankind has preserved–the Cross. Consider what calamities that engine of grief has produced!” — John Adams, letter to Thomas Jefferson

        “What havoc has been made of books through every century of the Christian era? Where are fifty gospels, condemned as spurious by the bull of Pope Gelasius? Where are the forty wagon-loads of Hebrew manuscripts burned in France, by order of another pope, because suspected of heresy? Remember the ‘index expurgatorius’, the inquisition, the stake, the axe, the halter and the guillotine.” — John Adams, letter to John Taylor

        “The priesthood have, in all ancient nations, nearly monopolized learning. And ever since the Reformation, when or where has existed a Protestant or dissenting sect who would tolerate A FREE INQUIRY? The blackest billingsgate, the most ungentlemanly insolence, the most yahooish brutality, is patiently endured, countenanced, propagated, and applauded. But touch a solemn truth in collision with a dogma of a sect, though capable of the clearest proof, and you will find you have disturbed a nest, and the hornets will swarm about your eyes and hand, and fly into your face and eyes.” — John Adams, letter to John Taylor

        ——————————————————————————–

        Fourthly, from the pen of Thomas Jefferson, lawyer, philosopher, scientist and inventor, author of the Declaration of Independence, Author of the Act for Establishing Religious Freedom, Statesman and Diplomat, Secretary of State under Washington and Adams, Third President of the United States, and the mentor and the mind behind the Father of the Constitution and quite possibly the most brilliant mind of the 18th century…or since….

        “The clergy…believe that any portion of power confided to me [as President] will be exerted in opposition to their schemes. And they believe rightly: for I have sworn upon the altar of God, eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man. But this is all they have to fear from me: and enough, too, in their opinion.” –Thomas Jefferson to Benjamin Rush, 1800.

        “In every country and every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot … they have perverted the purest religion ever preached to man into mystery and jargon, unintelligible to all mankind, and therefore the safer engine for their purpose.” — Thomas Jefferson, to Horatio Spafford, March 17, 1814

        “Is uniformity attainable? Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined, imprisoned; yet we have not advanced an inch towards uniformity. What has been the effect of coercion? To make one half the world fools, and the other half hypocrites. To support roguery and error all over the earth.” — Thomas Jefferson, from “Notes on Virginia”

        “Shake off all the fears of servile prejudices, under which weak minds are servilely crouched. Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call on her tribunal for every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear.” — Thomas Jefferson, letter to Peter Carr, Aug. 10, 1787

        “It is too late in the day for men of sincerity to pretend they believe in the Platonic mysticisms that three are one, and one is three; and yet that the one is not three, and the three are not one. But this constitutes the craft, the power and the profit of the priests.” — Thomas Jefferson to John Adams, 1803

        “But a short time elapsed after the death of the great reformer of the Jewish religion, before his principles were departed from by those who professed to be his special servants, and perverted into an engine for enslaving mankind, and aggrandizing their oppressors in Church and State.” — Thomas Jefferson to S. Kercheval, 1810

        “History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance, of which their political as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purpose.” — Thomas Jefferson to Baron von Humboldt, 1813

        “On the dogmas of religion, as distinguished from moral principles, all mankind, from the beginning of the world to this day, have been quarreling, fighting, burning and torturing one another, for abstractions unintelligible to themselves and to all others, and absolutely beyond the comprehension of the human mind.” — Thomas Jefferson to Carey, 1816

        “But the greatest of all reformers of the depraved religion of his own country, was Jesus of Nazareth. Abstracting what is really his from the rubbish in which it is buried, easily distinguished by its lustre from the dross of his biographers, and as separable from that as the diamond from the dunghill, we have the outlines of a system of the most sublime morality which has ever fallen from the lips of man. The establishment of the innocent and genuine character of this benevolent morality, and the rescuing it from the imputation of imposture, which has resulted from artificial systems, invented by ultra-Christian sects (The immaculate conception of Jesus, his deification, the creation of the world by him, his miraculous powers, his resurrection and visible ascension, his corporeal presence in the Eucharist, the Trinity; original sin, atonement, regeneration, election, orders of the Hierarchy, etc.) is a most desirable object.” — Thomas Jefferson to W. Short, Oct. 31, 1819
        More quote on religion

      • http://gravatar.com/bychoosing Jay

        Interesting, coal, you seem very selective in your choice of quotes. Specifically picked, i suspect, to lead your readers to your desired conclusion, or should i say, that they may imbibe your prejudices. As i stated in my response to one of your posts, the founding father’s quotes, with respect to religion, namely Christianity, when all, together, considered, should dispel any doubt as to which religious organization their scathing criticisms were aimed; specifically, the Roman Papacy.

        Consider these quotes you should have included:

        Cabalistic Christianity, which is Catholic Christianity, and which has prevailed for 1,500 years, has received a mortal wound, of which the monster must finally die. Yet so strong is his constitution, that he may endure for centuries before he expires.
        – John Adams, letter to Thomas Jefferson, July 16, 1814, from James A Haught, ed, 2000 Years of Disbelief

        I do not like the reappearance of the Jesuits…. Shall we not have regular swarms of them here, in as many disguises as only a king of the gipsies can assume, dressed as printers, publishers, writers and schoolmasters? If ever there was a body of men who merited damnation on earth and in Hell, it is this society of Loyola’s. Nevertheless, we are
        compelled by our system of religious toleration to offer them an asylum.
        – John Adams, letter to Thomas Jefferson, May 5, 1816

        Can a free government possibly exist with the Roman Catholic religion?
        – John Adams, letter to Thomas Jefferson, May 19, 1821, from James A Haught, ed, 2000 Years of Disbelief

        The Church of Rome has made it an article of faith that no man can be saved out of their church, and all other religious sects approach this dreadful opinion in proportion to their ignorance, and the influence of ignorant or wicked priests.
        – John Adams, Diary and Autobiography

        What havoc has been made of books through every century of the Christian era? Where are fifty gospels condemned as spurious by the bull of Pope Gelasius? Where are forty wagon-loads of Hebrew manuscripts burned in France, by order of another pope, because of suspected heresy? Remember the Index Expurgato-rius, the Inquisition, the stake, the axe, the halter, and the guillotine; and, oh! horrible, the rack! This is as bad, if not worse, than a slow fire. Nor should the Lion’s Mouth be forgotten. Have you considered that system of holy lies and pious frauds that has raged and triumphed for 1,500 years.
        – John Adams, letter to John Taylor, 1814, quoted by Norman Cousins in In God We Trust: The Religious Beliefs and Ideas of the American Founding Fathers (New York: Harper & Brothers, 1958), p. 106-7, from James A Haught, ed, 2000 Years of Disbelief

        Numberless have been the systems of iniquity The most refined, sublime, extensive, and astonishing constitution of policy that ever was conceived by the mind of man was framed by the ROMISH CLERGY for the aggrandizement of their own Order They even persuaded mankind to believe, faithfully and undoubtingly, that God Almighty had entrusted them with the keys of heaven, whose gates they might open and close at pleasure … with authority to license all sorts of sins and Crimes … or withholding the rain of heaven and the beams of the sun; with the management of earthquakes, pestilence, and famine; nay, with the mysterious, awful, incomprehensible power of creating out of bread and wine the flesh and blood of God himself. All these opinions they were enabled to spread and rivet among the people by reducing their minds to a state of sordid ignorance and staring timidity, and by infusing into them a religious horror of letters and knowledge. Thus was human nature chained fast for ages in a cruel, shameful, and deplorable servitude….

        Of all the nonsense and delusion which had ever passed through the mind of man, none had ever been more extravagant than the notions of absolutions, indelible characters, uninterrupted successions, and the rest of those fantastical ideas, derived from the canon law, which had thrown such a glare of mystery, sanctity, reverence, and right reverend eminence and holiness around the idea of a priest as no mortal could deserve … the ridiculous fancies of sanctified effluvia from episcopal fingers.
        – John Adams, “A Dissertation on the Canon and the Feudal Law,” printed in the Boston Gazette, August 1765

        We think ourselves possessed, or, at least, we boast that we are so, of liberty of conscience on all subjects, and of the right of free inquiry and private judgment in all cases, and yet how far are we from these exalted privileges in fact!

        There exists, I believe, throughout the whole Christian world,(Roman Catholicism) emphasis added.. a law which makes it blasphemy to deny or doubt the divine inspiration of all the books of the Old and New Testaments, from Genesis to Revelations.

        In most countries of Europe it is punished by fire at the stake, or the rack, or the wheel. Again, Roman Catholicism

        In England itself it is punished by boring through the tongue with a red-hot poker. In America it is not better; even in our own Massachusetts, which I believe, upon the whole, is as temperate and moderate in religious zeal as most of the States, a law was made in the latter end of the last century, repealing the cruel punishments of the former laws, but substituting fine and imprisonment upon all those blasphemers upon any book of the Old Testament or New.

        Now, what free inquiry, when a writer must surely encounter the risk of fine or imprisonment for adducing any argument for investigating into the divine authority of those books? Who would run the risk of translating Dupuis? But I cannot enlarge upon this subject, though I have it much at heart. I think such laws a great embarrassment, great obstructions to the improvement of the human mind. Books that cannot bear examination, certainly ought not to be established as divine inspiration by penal laws. It is true, few persons appear desirous to put such laws in execution, and it is also true that some few persons are hardy enough to venture to depart from them.

        But as long as they continue in force as laws, the human mind must make an awkward and clumsy progress in its investigations. I wish they were repealed. The substance and essence of Christianity, as I understand it, is eternal and unchangeable, and will bear examination forever, but it has been mixed with extraneous ingredients, which I think will not bear examination, and they ought to be separated. Adieu.

        – John Adams, one of his last letters to Thomas Jefferson, January 23, 1825.

        Clearly, coal, it is the Roman Papacy, specifically, that our founding father’s feared the most, not Christianity, as the two are not, one and the same. Naturally, and the reason for the sentiments, “Separation of Church and State”, expressed in our Constitution, who’s purpose was to avoid a similar religious monopoly, the Roman Catholic Church, supreme above even kings, as was present in Europe at the time. Also, you should be aware, that the founding fathers’ desire for such separation was for naught, as the influence of the Roman Papacy reaches deep into our political organ.

        Btw, coal, the founding father’s detested political tyranny just as much as religious tyranny. Another words, it wasn’t religion per say that they objected to, rather, Religious tyranny, a tyranny that can only thrive when blended with the political system of a nation.

    • Gregg

      One Nation Under God in the Declaration of Independence. Also our money says In God We Trust. Where have you been…

      • Vigilant

        “One Nation Under God in the Declaration of Independence.”

        Incorrect.

  • hugo brandstetter

    If you want to control your own life you don’t blame anything on others. To do so is admitting others are controlling your life. Athiests woulds like this to be the best world it’s possible to make since they are only coming this way once.Others (the religious) .are too often looking for someone to blame.Athiests enjoy life because there is so much worthwhile to do in this world to make it better.But it all starts with free speech and our bill of rights No one should have the right to take that from us what ever their claims. I believe according to Madison we were promised additional rights we are still waiting for.

  • http://gravatar.com/catman11 coal miner

    Thomas Paine – “All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit.”

    • http://gravatar.com/bychoosing Jay

      One man’s opinion, big deal. Probably taken out of context.

      • CHRISTOPHER ALLEN HORTON

        “Jay,” TO “PUSH HIM OFF” LIKE THAT DAMAGES YOUR CREDIBILITY IN THIS DISCUSSION. NOW, I KNOW; WHENEVER YOU DO NOT LIKE SOMETHING, IT WAS, “PROBABLY TAKEN OUT OF CONTEXT.”

        CHRISTOPHER ALLEN HORTON

      • http://gravatar.com/bychoosing Jay

        Read Vigilant’s response to coal, Mr. Christopher, proving once again, that coal has a pernicious habit of jerking everything out of context, especially when it comes to Christianity. Which reveals more about coal, then the subject discussed. Btw, you bear a striking resemblance to coal. Brothers?

    • Vigilant

      Thomas Paine was a Deist, NOT an atheist. When he was taken to task for the statement you quoted, coal miner, he rightly clarified that he was inveighing against those organized, man made political structures called “churches.” He was NOT condemning religion itself.

      You make the mistake so many atheists do of throwing out the baby with the bathwater. Many, as yourself, legitimately point out the horrors perpetrated on humanity by the human beings who have risen to positions of power in the church. You fail to admit that there is a great distinction between the ideals and value systems of a religion, as opposed to the utterly unreligious manner in which those ideals have been violated by church officials and their followers.

      To logically extend the faulty assumption is to say that, because certain Catholic priests have committed pedophilic acts with their alter boys, that means that Christianity condones and encourages pedophilia. Obviously, it does not.

      Jefferson well understood the difference. While Christ was, in his estimation, perhaps the greatest man who ever lived, he did not buy into the hypocrisies and ego-laden status of those who ran the churches. Jefferson took it a step further, and denied all of the supernatural aspects of the “revealed” religions, as did most of the Deists of his day.

      • http://gravatar.com/catman11 coal miner

        Vigilant,
        I am not a athesist.I am a pantheist.I do believe in God.God and the universe are the same and it is trueI don’t worship a fictional universal dictator.We don’t need to fear God,only to love him.Your Christian God is full of hate,retribution and revenge.That kind of so called love we can do without.

      • http://gravatar.com/bychoosing Jay

        coal: Your Christian God is full of hate,retribution and revenge.That kind of so called love we can do without.

        You are dead wrong, coal. You have unknowingly described yourself. Our God is nothing of the sort. Our God is; is independent, unchangeable, eternal and omnipresent. He exists as a spiritual being, having no form or dimensions, and is omniscient (all-knowing), wise, truthful, faithful, good, loving, merciful, graceful, patient, holy, at peace, righteous and just, jealous for His own honour, wrathful towards sin, perfect in every way, beautiful beyond comprehension, and is glorified through the revelation of Himself.

      • http://gravatar.com/bychoosing Jay

        Vigilant, your post was nothing short of sublime. Kudos!

  • Jeremy Leochner

    People have a right to their individual beliefs. Personally I believe our country is not a country based on any religion. But neither is it based on secularism. Ours is a republic based on the ideals of equality and liberty. Ideals that know no partisanship. Atheism is not patriotic and religion is not unpatriotic. Believing in ones ideals is always patriotic. However I as an agnostic may disagree with people on religion I will always respect other peoples beliefs and hope they do the same.

  • http://knightspyder.wordpress.com cedarridgefarmsinc

    Isn’t just being an Atheist a religion? If you believe or not, you still have a belief that one is right and one is wrong! So what is their point?

    • GALT

      yes, absolutely……believing and non-believeing are the SAME THING!!!!!!!!

      Just because they are NOT spelled the same, and one seems to suggest a negative is just a quibble……….Ignorance is Strength, War is Peace, Freedom is Slavery.

      • Robert Smith

        Doublespeak forever!

        Homeland Security

        No child left behind

        Mission Accomplished

        Rob

      • http://gravatar.com/bychoosing Jay

        Don’t forget, “Hope and change”.

        Jay

  • ROGER, Irish-Canadian LIBERTARIAN
  • http://gravatar.com/catman11 coal miner

    Bob Livingston

    And the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerve in the brain of Jupiter. But may we hope that the dawn of reason and freedom of thought in these United States will do away with this artificial scaffolding, and restore to us the primitive and genuine doctrines of this most venerated reformer of human errors.” –Thomas Jefferson, Letter to John Adams, April 11, 1823

    “No kingdom has shed more blood than the kingdom of Christ.” [Montiesque]

    • http://gravatar.com/bychoosing Jay

      Nonsense, coal! Montiesque was referring to the Roman Papacy, not Christianity. Two very different entities. You should seriously educate yourself as to the differences between the two.

    • Nadzieja Batki

      I will recommend the book “The Woman Rides the Beast” by Dave Hunt.

  • tncdel

    Whether or not one believes in mysticism has no bearing on one’s patriotism. I’m not into religion AT ALL, and I’m a 100% disabled veteran who loves my country.

    Don’t lump all atheists together or try to create divisiveness between those who believe in religion and those who don’t but who share the same political beliefs.

    Obama is divisive. And. apparently, Bryan Nash is imitating him. Sad.

    • Nadzieja Batki

      Distracting everyone by trying to fish for sympathy so you won’t be burdened with hard question about what you believe.

      • Karolyn

        What? Your comment has nothing to do with what he said. Why do you have to read something into everything someone says and not just take it at face value?

  • http://www.facebook.com/benjamin.fox.754 Benjamin Fox

    God uses the foolish things of the world to confound the wise, applies to those who think they are gods and are nothing but prideful humans who think of themselves higher then they should, little idiots, little self made gods, who wish they had the mind of God. They can’t keep the universe going, can’t stop from dying, can’t cure their own ills but, think their little godhood will save them, weak brained, ego’s as big as a pebble, minds devoid of understanding and knowledge, wisdom they lack and it shows with their display of self as gods. I pray for the idiot’s, God takes no joy in the death of the wicked, so be pleased by this but, someday, you will bow and give glory to Him that you hate.

    • GALT

      That which is inconsequential provokes no emotion what so ever…….

  • Mary Ann Ludwig

    This nation was founded on Christian (primarily and Judeo-Christian) principles. Have the Atheists not noticed how often the founders called on God to reinforce a point. For example – “We are endowed by our Creator…” All you have to do is look at the Declaration of Independence, The Constitution and the Federalist Papers to understand that patriotism and religion/faith go hand in hand. Atheism is nothing. Literally. It provides nothing. No belief. No standards, ethics, moral guidance. Nothing. The first amendment guarantees those who do not believe are free to do so, but there is still (since 1776) NO SUCH THING as the separation of church and state. Not there. Doesn’t exist. That amendment guarantees that people of faith can practice their faith whenever and pretty much wherever they choose. Sorry about those of you who don’t have any beliefs. Guess you are satisfied to have nothing.

    • GALT

      Praise Allah! Praise Yahweh! Praise Joseph Smith!

      You would think that all these “great men” would have mentioned something MORE than
      “creator” if they actually meant Christian……….cause God is not mentioned in the constitution………and “religion” is also a bit vague?

      Do you think children cry when they learn there is no Santa Claus, or Easter Bunny, or Tooth Fairy?

    • http://gravatar.com/catman11 coal miner

      Mary Ann Ludwig
      http://www.truthbeknown.com/victims.htm
      How many people have been killed by Christians since biblical times? What your church does not want you to know. Listed are only events that solely occurred …

      • http://gravatar.com/bychoosing Jay

        How many Christians have been killed by the likes of your sinister, and hateful rhetoric, coal? You excoriate anyone one who dares to make a anti-Semitic slur against Islam, while at the same time you wage a crusade against Christianity. Are you confused, double-minded, or just a hypocrite, coal? Personally, I think you’re none of the above, rather; just an evil, hate-filled-little man, who swears that pantheism is a religion of LOVE. Pathetic!

    • Jeremy Leochner

      The issue with the founding fathers is they used ambiguous language that is open to multiply interpretations. I believe our country was founded on the principles of equality and liberty which are not unique to any religion or religious view. A nation that is of a specific religion is by its nature exclusive. A republic on the other hand is inclusive. Our country is not a christian nation. It is a republic.

  • Gatspy

    Atheists are funny, but I do not feel sorry for them. We let you do what you want to do as far as the First Amendment, but you hope to deny Christians their rights. All public schools are Atheists today we pay for the religion of non belief in every class room. Our children come home crying, because they are attacked for using the term God. You force us to remove all are symbols from the public and then fly your banners where ever you please. This is our country, your type of democracy died with all the beheading and killing in the French Revolution. You are nothing, and your going to die, and go into nothingness. Thank God, That there is retribution for the Christians in Heaven.

    • GALT

      Retribution huh……..actually atheism would hardly be inclusive enough to describe those
      who have no allegiance to any meta-physical belief system……..or mystical belief system, if you prefer…………would you be less offended by the term anti-metaphysicist?

      Clearly, that you are free to profess or practice whatever fantasy you like, ……but as is the case with a musical instrument, we would like to be spared the arduous and pathetic practice sessions and would be appreciative if you would wait
      until you were reasonably competent before subjecting us to any public performance?

      • http://gravatar.com/catman11 coal miner

        Jay the brainless one,explain this one.
        http://www.skeptically.org/hhor/id4.html
        Holy Horror–Atrocities in the Name of God … News reports of the civil war tell of “Maronite Christian snipers,” “Sunni

      • http://gravatar.com/bychoosing Jay

        This isn’t religious behaviour, you dolt. Nor is the schism and animosity between our two political parties here, political behaviour. It is just human behaviour, period! Behaviour, btw, that confirms the veracity of the Bible, with respect to the human condition; hopelessly corrupt, and degenerate. One need only but consider human behaviour to confirm the veracity of the Bible. Hence, the need of a Saviour! Got any more hate you wish to spew, coal?

    • http://gravatar.com/catman11 coal miner

      Gatspy,

      http://www.fsmitha.com/h3/copernicus.htm
      Giordano Bruno, burned at the stake. February 17, 1600. Johann Kepler. Rotating Earth. For ages people looking at the sky thought the heavens were spinning

      • http://gravatar.com/bychoosing Jay

        Yes, by the Roman Papacy. So what’s your point, ignoramus? Is it that, Roman Catholicism is Christian? If so, your a bigger ignoramus then i thought. Do yourself a favour, avoid using the words Roman Catholicism, Church, and Christianity in the same breath. This way, people may be fooled into believing that you actually know what you are talking about!

  • Sanity Perhaps

    I know many athiests, they have their ideals but do not squabble with those who dont share them. This ‘outreach’ by exibitionists is just that.. Outreaching and in it’s wake creats dissition from the bible extremists and we, that is you and I, are caught in the middle.. They want us to take sides because only in numbers can you cement your beliefs in society irregardless whether it’s right or wrong to do so.Bible thumpers look, you can not determine anothers fate, they must live with their decisions and accept what ever ‘existance’ they face on the other side.. Your intervention into their choices show the lack of wisdom your book preaches.. And you ‘nowhere men” you don’t know whether there’s something or nothing and your determination to convince others also against their wiil is just as unwise.. If nothing then give a reason for our current circumstance.. Just one of those things? How typical.. You have nothing to gain by telling the thumpers they’ve been lying to themselves all this time.. You don’t know this any more than they know you will suffer eternally by not adhering to their beliefs.. No one knows until it happens, then it’s too late to either warn or confirm what’s next. So your no longer in existance, will you even know this? You find everything is as you believed, who you gonna tell but those who join you, for all the others, you have no voice in the matter nor will you be given special priveledge because you tried. it is not up to you to determine another’s fate nor is it theirs..

  • CHRISTOPHER ALLEN HORTON

    LOOK, I KNOW MANY PEOPLE ON THIS SITE ARE “BELIEVERS.” I AM NOT TRYING TO OFFEND ANYONE.

    IT SEEMS MANY OF THESE SO-CALLED, “Christians,” DO NOT FOLLOW THE TEACHINGS OF THE Bible. IF YOU TRULY BELIEVE IN THE Bible, YOU MUST VIEW IT AS A “FIXED” DOCUMENT WHICH CAN NOT BE MODIFIED TO MEET THE NEEDS OF CHANGING TIMES. MY PARENTS AND SIBLINGS ARE “BELIEVERS.” AS A NEGRO, THIS IS WHAT I SEE AMONG NEGRO “Christians:”
    I). Why are clergy being paid for their services. At my family’s church, the pastor makes $1,000 per Sunday. Aren’t so-called clergy suppose to provide their services for free?;
    II). It is my understanding churches are supposed to be havens for the poor and needy. Why do so many churches only have “outreach” at Thanksgiving and Yuletide?;
    III). Why do married “Christians” believe the way to handle problems in marriage is having an affair, instead of dealing with the concept of, “for better or worse?”; AND
    IV). Why are so many clergy engaged in infidel relationships with female members of their flock?
    SOME (OR, ALL) OF THESE EXAMPLES ALSO APPLY TO CAUCASIAN “BELIEVERS.”

    AS ATHEISTS, WE STAND BY OUR VALUES; WE ARE NOT, “WISHY-WASHY.”

    CHRISTOPHER ALLEN HORTON

    • http://gravatar.com/bychoosing Jay

      IT SEEMS MANY OF THESE SO-CALLED, “Christians,” DO NOT FOLLOW THE TEACHINGS OF THE Bible. IF YOU TRULY BELIEVE IN THE Bible, -Can we assume that you are well versed with the teachings in the Bible?

      YOU MUST VIEW IT AS A “FIXED” DOCUMENT WHICH CAN NOT BE MODIFIED TO MEET THE NEEDS OF CHANGING TIMES. -Agreed! Very well said.

      MY PARENTS AND SIBLINGS ARE “BELIEVERS.” AS A NEGRO, THIS IS WHAT I SEE AMONG NEGRO “Christians:”
      I). Why are clergy being paid for their services. At my family’s church, the pastor makes $1,000 per Sunday. Aren’t so-called clergy suppose to provide their services for free?;
      II). It is my understanding churches are supposed to be havens for the poor and needy. Why do so many churches only have “outreach” at Thanksgiving and Yuletide?;
      III). Why do married “Christians” believe the way to handle problems in marriage is having an affair, instead of dealing with the concept of, “for better or worse?”; AND
      IV). Why are so many clergy engaged in infidel relationships with female members of their flock? -These are questions, and they are good questions, that can be applied to all, believers, and non-believers. Are you suggesting that atheists are exempted?

      SOME (OR, ALL) OF THESE EXAMPLES ALSO APPLY TO CAUCASIAN “BELIEVERS.”

      -Should they not also apply to Negro atheists, and Caucasian atheists? As i am honestly under the conviction that the Bible is all-inclusive, speaking to all creation/creatures.

      AS ATHEISTS, WE STAND BY OUR VALUES; WE ARE NOT, “WISHY-WASHY.”

      Absolutely, as what you rightly claim can be confirmed by your consistent hate which you heap upon believers.

      • CHRISTOPHER ALLEN HORTON

        “Jay,”

        MY PURPOSE FOR PRESENTING THAT LIST WAS TO “POINT-OUT” THE HYPOCRISY AMONG, “Bible-Thumpers.” BECAUSE LIFE IS FULL OF STRESS, WHEN SO-CALLED, “Christians,” OBTAIN RELIEF FOR THAT STRESS IT IS USUALLY IN A MANNER WHICH OVERTLY OPPOSES Biblical TEACHINGS. BECAUSE OF FAMILY AND TRADITION, MOST “Christians” ARE TOO AFRAID TO ADMIT THE Bible HAS NO PLACE IN THEIR LIVES IN 2012.

        CHRISTOPHER ALLEN HORTON

      • http://gravatar.com/bychoosing Jay

        Christopher: MY PURPOSE FOR PRESENTING THAT LIST WAS TO “POINT-OUT” THE HYPOCRISY AMONG, “Bible-Thumpers.” BECAUSE LIFE IS FULL OF STRESS, WHEN SO-CALLED, “Christians,” OBTAIN RELIEF FOR THAT STRESS IT IS USUALLY IN A MANNER WHICH OVERTLY OPPOSES Biblical TEACHINGS. BECAUSE OF FAMILY AND TRADITION,
        MOST “Christians” ARE TOO AFRAID TO ADMIT THE Bible HAS NO PLACE IN THEIR LIVES IN 2012.

        The only thing you managed to point out, Mr. Horton, is your blatant hypocrisy, ignorance, arrogance, and self-rightiousness, and with flying colours may i add. You lack even the most basic understanding of human nature, and the fact that moral short-comings is not exclusive to gender, race, religious or political party-line. You, are a prime example of an idiot; forever learning and understanding nothing.

      • CHRISTOPHER ALLEN HORTON

        “Jay,” YOU ARE A PRIME EXAMPLE OF A “BELIEVER” HAVING TO HAVE THE LAST WORD. YOU ARE LIKE THE Jehovah’s Witnesses WHICH KNOCK ON YOUR DOOR EARLY SATURDAY MORNINGS. I “GOT” RID OF THEM MANY YEARS AGO – WHEN I OPENED MY DOOR ONE SATURDAY MORNING, I WAS NUDE; NO MORE Jehovah’s Witnesses. “Jay” THIS IS WHY ATHEISTS DO NOT HAVE DISCUSSIONS WITH THEISTS – WE HAVE NOTHING TO PROVE; Y’ALL DO.

        CHRISTOPHER ALLEN HORTON

      • http://gravatar.com/bychoosing Jay

        Gee Chrissy, i thought that you and i were discussing imperfect-moral-character in most, if not all, human beings. After all, you brought it up. Now you’re telling me that you and i were actually arguing metaphysics. One of us is obviously confused…perhaps this could be the reason why atheists stop arguing with them there theists?

      • CHRISTOPHER ALLEN HORTON

        “Jay,”

        DO NOT CALL ME, “Chrissy.” I HAVE NOT RIDICULED Y-O-U-R “manhood;” YOU DO NOT “WANT TO GO THERE.”

        CHRISTOPHER ALLEN HORTON

      • http://gravatar.com/bychoosing Jay

        Oh, i see. You object to being disparaged? Well then, Mr. Christopher, i suggest you refrain from the same.

      • CHRISTOPHER ALLEN HORTON

        “Jay,”

        DISAGREEING HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH TRYING TO EFFEMINIZE ANOTHER MALE. YOUR REPLY WAS STUPID.

        CHRISTOPHER ALLEN HORTON

      • http://gravatar.com/bychoosing Jay

        Well i do apologize, Mr. Christopher, for having wasted my time with someone who is clearly incapable on staying on point, and has a psychological break-down when his idiotic assertions are challenged. I shall avoid making the same mistake in the future. God speed.

  • http://gravatar.com/catman11 coal miner

    Mary Ann Ludwig and Jay
    Bull sh*t,
    How do you explain the Battle of Jericho? God stop the sun revolving around the earth?

    • http://gravatar.com/bychoosing Jay

      Yes, God did cause the sun appear to stop for King Hezekiah, but He also made it run backwards. The indicator of this was the shadow on a sundial. The great debate over this instance focuses on whether the Lord influenced the movement of the sun, the earth, or the shadow itself. Evolutionists like to use this passage to blame the Bible for agreeing with the falsehood that the sun moved across the sky, and the earth remained stationary.

      The fact is, the Lord simply said that He would move the sun’s shadow. God could have accomplished this task by bending light or tilting the ground on which the sundial rested. I don’t see why people think God should have said, “I’ll make the earth run backwards for you.” The Lord was giving a direct sign that He would give the King 15 more years to live, and it doesn’t really matter how He made the shadow reverse itself.

      “And this shall be a sign unto thee from the LORD, that the LORD will do this thing that he hath spoken; Behold, I will bring again the shadow of the degrees, which is gone down in the sun dial of Ahaz, ten degrees backward. So the sun returned ten degrees, by which
      degrees it was gone down” (Isa. 38:7-8).

  • Rick

    What of the adage “There are no Atheists in foxholes”?

    • GALT

      “That there are no atheists in foxholes, is not an argument against atheists, it’s an argument against foxholes.”

  • terris

    Rick,

    That old adage is not true. I know two people who were in Vietnam. Both of them were athiest’s before they went into battle, and they still. They are, also, two of the most patriotic and moral people I know. They believe in doing the right thing simpluy because it is the right thing. Not because someone/something bigger than themselves will hurt them if they don’t.

    • http://gravatar.com/bychoosing Jay

      terris: They believe in doing the right thing simpluy because it is the right thing. Not because someone/something bigger than themselves will hurt them if they don’t.

      Where did you get the silly notion that someone/something will hurt you if you don’t do the right thing? Oh, you must be talking about “Consequences” as the result of not not doing the right thing, or doing the right thing…so something will, hurt you for doing the wrong thing, and something will reward you for doing the right thing. I get ya now…you know, perhaps its not religion that causes wars after all, i have a sneaking suspicion that it may be semantics.

      • Jeremy Leochner

        I think the issue Jay at least for myself is this idea of god being the final judge of the universe. That somehow what is considered right and wrong is determined by god and that we human beings must strive to follow gods laws. My issue with that is it makes right and wrong seem arbitrary and a decision rather then some sort of simple fact. Something is not necessarily right just because god allows it or decides it will happen. Then again just because I think something is right does not necessarily make it so either. That’s why I am an agnostic. I do not know what ultimately is right or wrong. All I have is what I believe. I don’t believe in god so I try to do what I feel and believe is right and honorable. Sometimes I am wrong and sometimes I am right. I like being right so I try to be that as often as possible. The best I figure is treat others the way you wish to be treated.

  • s c

    Let’s see. Someone wants us to think that being an atheist is the same as being patriotic. That pretty well confirms my old theory that career politicians are also career criminals and borderline retards. It justifies the way they hose America. It lets them take care of themselves. It gives them a reason not to have a functioning conscience.
    So, when is the last time any of these professional retards spent time in a combat zone? Now that certain politicians think their “world-class leadership” has to come out of their Big Tent closet, this would be a great time for them to volunteer as trash removal experts in a combat zone. Technically, they’re too old to do much. Then again, Uncle Scam hasn’t blinked when it comes to letting some people in the military stay in combat zones for WAY too long [bring the NATIONAL GUARD H O M E, you s o b s ]. Bring ALL of our military HOME.
    No, thanks. this is just another easy way for losers to try and convince us that they always know best. Are these the same losers who won’t let forest fire experts conduct pre-burning? Are these the same retards who can’t live within their means [means=BUDGET]? Are these the same ones who think Amerika’s being DEEP in debt is the same as a booming economy?
    Food for thought for those who can still THINK. Career elected retards and in-house domestic enemies, you S U C K !

  • http://gravatar.com/catman11 coal miner

    http://www.askelm.com/star/star004.htm
    “The Lion was the symbol of the Tribe of Judah, and the constellation …. again could show remarkable prophetic themes mentioned in the Bible that people were

  • Liz

    Even though I am thankful for our religious freedoms…and I am a Christian…I do not believe our nation was founded on Christianity. There were founders who were Christians but some were from other religions or atheists…they wanted freedom. However, that being said…I think religion was really a mask for what truly runs our country and that is the masons/illuminati.

    • http://gravatar.com/bychoosing Jay

      Religious tyranny cannot exist unless it is blended with the political system of a nation. But it begs the question, when the co-mingling is achieved; is the off-spring a political, or a religious monster?

  • http://gravatar.com/bychoosing Jay

    The research below is for both, Robert, who made the asinine statement: “Religion asserts itself on the population at large by infiltrating the political system with true believers who will then use the political system to do the church’s bidding.”, and coal, who seems under the impression that Paganism gave birth to Christianity.

    Constantine’s reign as Roman emperor (A.D. 306-337) dramatically changed the direction of Christianity.

    This grew out of his strategy for unifying his empire by creating a “catholic”—meaning universal —church that would blend elements from many religions into one.

    The “Christianity” Constantine endorsed was different from that practiced by Christ
    and the apostles. The emperor accelerated the change by his own hatred of Jews.

    Constantine himself said, “Let us then have nothing in common with the detestable Jewish crowd.” -(Eusebius, Life of Constantine 3, 18-19, Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers, 1979, second series, Vol. 1, pp. 524-525).

    For example, at the Council of Nicea (A.D. 325), church authorities essentially replaced the biblical Passover with Easter, a popular holiday rooted in ancient springtime fertility celebrations.

    British historian Paul Johnson summarizes how Constantine’s approach of merging religious practices produced a corrupted Christianity that meshed paganism with biblical elements.

    When we consider the vast differences between the mainstream Christianity of today and the original Christianity of Jesus Christ and the apostles, we can trace much of that change to Constantine and the religious system he put into power.

    “Constantine corrupted and perverted Christianity more than he aided it. He was an ambitious and superstitious Emperor who murdered his own kindred (his wife and son) while promoting Christianity. He paganized Christianity while using it as a political tool to solidify his Empire.”-Paganism Surviving in Christianity By Abram Herbert Lewis
    “The Control of Christianity by the State Under Constantine and his Successors”
    Chapter X; pg. 203

    “The opening of the Fourth Century marks a new era in the process by which paganism
    poisoned Christianity. Constantine turned Christianity into a piece of political machinery.” -Paganism Surviving in Christianity By Abram Herbert Lewis “The Control of Christianity by the State Under Constantine and his Successors” Chapter X; pg. 208

    “Soon after the so-called conversion of Constantine…the Church entered on its Apostasy from the primitive simplicity and purity which marked its earlier history. Pagans in vast multitudes pressed into the Christian Fold, bringing with them old practices and customs, and filling the places of Christian worship with the pageantry and ornaments which characterized the worship of the gods in heathen temples.

    These unconverted millions became only nominally Christian, impressing the doctrines, rites, and forms of pagan religion upon the Christian Church.”
    -The Old Catholic Church
    by W.D. Killen D.D.; pp.70-72
    Edinburgh; 1871

    “From the time of Constantine onward, the worship of the Roman Catholic Church, in its forms and ceremonies, has been more clearly identified with the paganism of Ancient Rome, than with the religion of the New Testament. The customs of pagan religion were only baptized with Christian names.”-Paganism Surviving in Christianity By Abram Herbert Lewis “The Control of Christianity by the State Under Constantine and his Successors”
    Chapter X; pg. 210

    “Constantine turned Christianity into a piece of political machinery.”
    -Paganism Surviving in Christianity By Abram Herbert Lewis
    “The Control of Christianity by the State Under Constantine and his Successors”
    Chapter X; pg. 208

    “Constantine had no respect for human life, and as emperor he executed his eldest son, his own second wife, his favorite sister’s husband and ‘many others’ on doubtful charges.He was also responsible for wholesale massacres in north Africa.”
    - History of Christianity Johnson; (p.68)

    “Constantine had a father-in-law, whom he commanded to be hung; he had a brother-in-law, whom he ordered to be strangled; he had a nephew twelve or thirteen years old, whose throat he ordered to be cut; he had an eldest son, whom he beheaded; he had a wife, whom he ordered to be suffocated in a bath.”
    -Voltaire Philosophical Dictionary, article “Constantine”.

    These atrocious crimes were perpetrated after Constantine declared himself to be a Christian. This is the man who became leader of the Holy Roman Catholic Church.
    This is the man who “legalized” Christianity in the Roman Empire. This is the leader
    who voted for and established many of the doctrines taught in the churches today.

    Constantine presided at Church councils and worshipped the divinity of Christ, as a doctrine that was decided upon by the councils of Nicea that were political efforts to cement the pagans with the last vestiges of believing Christians.

    It cannot be doubted that the character of Constantine deteriorated rather than improved under the influence of his form of Christianity.

    “Constantine pursued the great object of his ambition through the dark and bloody paths of war and policy; and, after the victory, he abandoned himself, without moderation, to the abuse of his fortune. He declined in the practice of virtue; and the same year of his reign in which he convened the Council of Nice was polluted by the execution, or rather murder, of his eldest son.” -The History of the Decline and Fall
    of the Roman Empire By Edward Gibbon, 1887, Chap. xx.

    “Constantine never actually accepted Christianity…Constantine never totally abandoned Paganism…and was known to continue to worship pagan gods. Even after his conversion, Constantine was well known for his brutality.”
    -Constantine – The Making of a Saint by Andras Nagy

    “Christians claim to follow the teachings of the one they call Jesus Christ, but their
    traditions today are radically different than the original teachings of that man. The process of the development of Christianity is a long and complicated one, but there are
    a number of key influential figures who played a crucial role in it. While most are familiar with the names of the 12 apostles, they are usually unfamiliar with the one
    who claimed to be the 13th, Constantine the Great, the first Holy Roman Emperor.”
    -The Thirteenth Disciple Constantine and The Trinity by Nozrem ha Brit.

    Education continued here: http://babylon-the-great.xanga.com/674811257/item/

    • CHRISTOPHER ALLEN HORTON

      “Jay,” PAGANISM DID GIVE BIRTH TO, “Christianity.” “Adam and Eve” WAS THE RESULT OF SOCIETY’S NEED TO CODIFY THOUGHT IN REFERENCE TO THE UNIVERSE’S EXISTENCE.

      CHRISTOPHER ALLEN HORTON

      • http://gravatar.com/bychoosing Jay

        I wish that you would make up your mind, Mr. Christopher. Do you wish to discuss metaphysics, moral imperfection, herd-mentality, origin of societies, or your fragile ego? Perhaps when you stop blubbering long enough, you’ll pick one. And what’s with the caps, are you deaf, or just computer illiterate?

      • CHRISTOPHER ALLEN HORTON

        “Jay,”

        I NOW REALIZE YOUR COMMENTS TO ME INDICATE YOU WANT TO “PICK” SOME SORT OF FIGHT. TALK PLAINLY, MAN! I AM NOT ASHAMED OF ANYTHING IN MY LIFE. THERE IS A LOT OF INNEUENDO IN YOUR REPLIES.

        CHRISTOPHER ALLEN HORTON

      • http://gravatar.com/bychoosing Jay

        Mr. Christopher, please refer to my last comment to you, above.

  • http://gravatar.com/catman11 coal miner

    CHRISTOPHER ALLEN HORTON
    Very well said. Did you know that Adam and Eve were naked atoms?
    A book by Lloyd M. Graham. Deceptions and Myths of the Bible explains that the Bible stories were stolen from pagan sources.The characters in the Bible were actually symbols,A woman,Satan or a whore repsented Matter,Tower of Babel( building blocks of nature) Samuel, Saul, David Christ and Solomon were solar myths.They are all borrow from ancient wisdoms.Christianity,Judaism had peverted and destroyed those wisdoms that were in the Bible to suit their own ends.We don’t need religion,we need common sense and the love of learning,not the fear of God.

    • http://gravatar.com/catman11 coal miner

      Jay,
      http://www.spaceandmotion.com/pantheism.htm
      … Pantheism (Heraclitus, Lao Tzu, Spinoza, Albert Einstein … and if nature were not worth knowing … if it is to survive!” (Albert Einstein) Our world is in great trouble.
      Famous pantheist.Care to eat crow?Ha hA Ha

      • http://gravatar.com/bychoosing Jay

        I disagree, coal. God transcends, and is distinct from nature. Only a fool(s) would be so arrogant as to think otherwise.

  • ROGER, Irish-Canadian LIBERTARIAN

    Take Heart Brian (Nash) a few of the FOUNDING FATHERS were closet Atheists and Freemasons, in spite of many Americans believing the “Declaration” was a Christian document!

    Religions are based on FAITH ( in a Supreme Being) and FEAR( you will be punishedfor not believing) rather than REASON and Empiricism of Atheism.

    I too believe, in the long run, Religions would compromise a LIBERTARIAN or Anarcho Capitalist government, causing its collapse..

    It is a main reason America is in the trouble it is today…Faith versus REASON

  • Pingback: Atheism is Patriotic? What the…? | A View from the Right

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