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Yes, People ‘Need’ Large-Capacity Magazines

February 7, 2013 by  

Yes, People ‘Need’ Large-Capacity Magazines
SCREENSHOT

Violent, thieving mobs — called flash mobs because they spring up almost instantaneously, loot and ransack a business and disperse within a minute or two — have been seen across the country over the past several years. Not surprisingly, they’ve now made their way into New York City.

Newsstand and convenience store owners in New York say the mobs of 20, 30, 40 or more are hitting their establishments regularly, stealing merchandise, damaging property and injuring customers.

“They assemble, they do whatever it is they’re going to do, and then they disassemble in a matter minutes. By the time somebody recognizes what is happening or is injured, if the police are able to respond, it is slow,” Jon Shane, assistant professor of criminal justice at John Jay College told CBS New York.

Raj Shmara owns a newsstand at Broadway at 55th Street. Shmara said his newsstand has been targeted seven different times by mobs of teens. During an attack just last week, the kids threw a bottle at an employee who had to be hospitalized. Watching a video of the mob attack is frightening. Dozens of youths crawl over one another like a pack of dogs scuffling over one food bowl.

New York business owners are trying to “protect themselves” by installing surveillance cameras because they say they aren’t getting any help from New York police.

And, of course, thanks to the recently passed New York gun control legislation, New York business owners can’t really protect themselves. Scary-looking black semi-automatic personal defense weapons with large magazines are now banned in the city because the State’s government decided no one “needs” a weapon with a large-capacity magazine.

A gun now legal in New York with a magazine holding only seven rounds wouldn’t be sufficient to take out a third of some of those mobs. But a store owner holding an AR-15 with a 30-round mag and another at his side would serve as a great deterrent to a mob of 20, 30 or 40 thugs.

Bob Livingston

is an ultra-conservative American who has been writing a newsletter since 1969. Bob has devoted much of his life to research and the quest for truth on a variety of subjects. Bob specializes in health issues such as nutritional supplements and alternatives to drugs, as well as issues of privacy (both personal and financial), asset protection and the preservation of freedom.

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  • Dennis48e

    Now Mr Livingston (insert sarcasm font here) you know these mobs would be easily detered and forced to disband by single shot 22s or muzzle loader rifles.

    • Vicki

      Some of them might be. Especially if the gun looks scary. Though I notice that scary looking guns are rather high on the to be banned list.

      • BR549

        Someone keeps voting those pantie-wastes, Schumer, King, Bloomberb, and McCarthy back into office. Maybe those voters should be sued for their stupidity. And now, we’re finding that all this post-Sandy Hook legislation fervor is all being pushed and the data isn’t going to be released until June. We also find out that the Crisis Actors Group is but one group that hires itself out to make believable movie clips for the government. A few days ago, you could get into the website. Yesterday, you needed to join their organization and they ask you for your FEMA certification number. The car Lanza used just happened to belong to a felon from Florida using a Norwalk CT address. Will we ever get the truth?

        All those touchy-feely latte toters think they have a good bead on things while they commute to work in their Priuses and Volvos with the Obama stickers on the back. It reminds me of the “Frog and the Crocodile” story These people are chumps.

      • eddie47d

        Some of you sound like sickos gleefully firing into crowds regardless of who gets hit. As long as you get your jollies in teaching someone a lesson. Only the innocent were killed at Kent State, Only the the innocent were killed at Ludlow Mine . Only the innocent were killed in St Petersburg Square. Only the innocent were killed at Sand Creek. Only the innocent were killed at Bunker Hill. Hey instead of the store owner having a semi-automatic to kill innocent customers how about positioning a drone on top of his store and just blow everyone to smithereens. Hell if your going to be insane and reckless why not wire the store with booby traps and blow up the whole place since the death and injury would be about the same.

        • BR549

          eddie wrote: “Some of you sound like sickos gleefully firing into crowds regardless of who gets hit.”

          Wow. According to you, no one has been safe anywhere, anytime, for the last 200 years. According to you, there are so many bullets flying that we can’t even see the sky and buildings everywhere are riddled to the point of collapse. I must have been asleep when all this happened.

      • Hedgehog

        Vicki: there is nothing scarier than a double barreled 12 ga. shotgun with external hammers. It looks like two sewer pipes pointed straight at you. When the owner ears back those two big hammers the “CLACK” sound will have something warm and wet running down your leg and may provoke other involuntary bodily functions. If your survival reflexes are good you may already be too far away too hear the “BOOM” as both barrels discharge at once. I’m mean, I load mine with #9 shot. Keeps the surgeon working for hours picking out hundreds of little lead pellets each about the size of grain of salt. THAT’S SCARY! As far as I know no one is planning on banning double barreled shotguns. Most of these guns are antiques or collector items, hard to get, but look around and you might find a Baikal made in the USSR.

      • Thomas Sherman

        Better get rid those Hummers also!! Every time I see one I hide because they are dangerous!! Especially if driven by a Government Official!!

      • Huapakechi

        This is for “eddie”
        The ‘magazine dump’ shootings are an exclusive province of the police. Civilian shooters have to buy their ammunition and they don’t like to waste it or hit unintended targets.

      • Average Joe

        eddie47d,

        Just to get under your skin, I just ordered 3 more 30 round Mags for my AK and another 500 rds. of 7.62…have a wonderful day…I know I am. ;)

        AJ

      • Vicki

        eddie47d writes:
        “Only the innocent were killed at Kent State,” By that standing army YOU claim will protect us when you tell us that the 2nd Amendment is out of date.

        And even looking at all the rest of your argument to ridicule I couldn’t help but notice that

        ~300 MILLION AMERICANS DID NOT SHOOT ANYONE.

        STOP PUNISHING THE INNOCENT.

        STOP IT
        STOP IT NOW

      • eddie47d

        Bob sure knows how to bring out the trigger happy maniacs! What will his evil scheme be tomorrow?

      • Rooftop Voter

        No no, just scary attachments

      • Proteus1946

        Vicki says, “By that standing army YOU claim will protect us when you tell us that the 2nd Amendment is out of date.”

        FYI the student war protesters were killed by NATIONAL GUARD TROOPS , not by the ‘fearsome’ Standing Army. You know National Guard, like in ‘Militia’, like in ‘A well regulated Militia.’ At least try to get your history right BEFORE shooting off your mouth.

        BTW, not a single protester had a weapon. The attitude seemed to be, ‘Let’s teach these dope-smoking hippies a lesson’. So much for the 1st Amendment right to ‘peaceably assemble’.

        • Frank Kahn

          Proteus, I will hopefully help you to understand the errors in your statement:

          “FYI the student war protesters were killed by NATIONAL GUARD TROOPS , not by the ‘fearsome’ Standing Army. You know National Guard, like in ‘Militia’, like in ‘A well regulated Militia.’ At least try to get your history right BEFORE shooting off your mouth.

          BTW, not a single protester had a weapon. The attitude seemed to be, ‘Let’s teach these dope-smoking hippies a lesson’. So much for the 1st Amendment right to ‘peaceably assemble”

          First of all the Ohio State National Guard is a part of the National Guard, it is formed under the Militia Act but is not what is referenced as a well regulated militia in the second amendment. It is a reserve force for the STANDING ARMY.

          “With the consent of state governors, members or units of the Army National Guard may be appointed, temporarily or indefinitely, to be federally recognized armed force members, in the active or inactive service of the United States.[2][3] If federally recognized, the member or unit becomes part of the Army National Guard of the United States,[4][5][6] which is a reserve component of the United States Army,[4] and part of the National Guard.”

          They are reserve army troops. And a part of the National (Federal government) armed forces.

          Second, I was living and aware of the circumstances and what happened leading up to and through the killing at Kent state. To make the statement that it was a peaceful assembly is pushing the facts way off the truth chart. It was a violent protest, buildings were burned, rocks and bottles were thrown at the police and the guards troops. Yes, it was tragic, and the killing was a result of a gross over reaction to the violence but it was not a peaceful protest.

          And, your saying that none of them had weapons is incorrect, they did not have guns but rocks and bottles, thrown with the intent to do harm, are weapons.

          • BR549

            Frank wrote: “First of all the Ohio State National Guard is a part of the National Guard, it is formed under the Militia Act but is not what is referenced as a well regulated militia in the second amendment. It is a reserve force for the STANDING ARMY.”

            You got that right. The “Dick Act” (Militia Act) was pushed by federalist proponents to reduce what THEY said was improper use of the militia by states’ governors in creating their personal armies. So, naturally, the voters would see this as a possible plus, little realizing the mission creep of the globalists (although they weren’t referred to as such for another 40 years). After that, as you state, the National Guard lost it’s loyalties to their own states, evidenced by what authority sends them the loudest marching orders. By contrast, I believe it was renowned colonial journalist Thomas Ritchie, who suggested at the time, that the governor would have every right to call on the state’s militia to quell the federal troops from interfering with the rights reserved to the state. I think it was Virginia and it “might” have been Gov. Tazewell, but my memory on it is foggy.

            The 17th Amendment, the Militia Act, and the Federal Reserve were all brutal assaults on the Constitution; all in a 10 year span during peacetime.

      • MGAMBA

        Eddie47d wrote “Only the innocent were killed at Kent State, Only the the innocent were killed at Ludlow Mine . Only the innocent were killed in St Petersburg Square. Only the innocent were killed at Sand Creek. Only the innocent were killed at Bunker Hill.”

        Wow Eddie if you actually understood any of these events you should be a strong supporter of the Second Amendment and gun rights, because in all of these examples, except Bunker Hill, it was an armed government firing on unarmed individuals. Let’s go down the list shall we:

        Kent State (1970): Ohio National Guard (GOVERNMENT) firing on UNARMED students

        Ludlow Mine (1914): Colorado National Guard (GOVERNMENT) firing on UNARMED coal miners and their families

        St. Petersburg Square (1905): Russian Imperial Guard (GOVERNMENT) firing on UNARMED demonstrators

        Sand Creek (1864): Colorado Territory Militia under the direction of U.S. Army Colonel John Chivington (GOVERNMENT) firing on UNARMED Indians.

        Can anyone see the pattern here? Anyone? Anyone? Let’s see – is it that armed government forces fired on an unarmed population – hmmm? Perhaps if the population in each case was armed then the events may not have occurred. Or at least the population would have had an opportunity to defend themselves.

        This brings up Bunker Hill (1775). In this case, armed colonial forces (otherwise known as armed civilians) fought a military battle with the British troops, who were at the time (GOVERNMENT). Although the British won the Battle of Bunker Hill, they did suffer heavy losses.

        So Eddie47d, I would suggest that next time, before you get your little liberal panties all in a twist about something, maybe you should try gathering a little knowledge on the subject before you blurt out something and prove to the world your utter lack thereof. Oh, but wait, that’s how Obama got elected isn’t it – a bunch of absolute morons and idiots buying the MSM’s BS without the intellect to recognize it for the BS that it is.

      • http://www.facebook.com/joelscopeland Joel Copeland

        @MGAMBA: Applause! Applause! We spoken!

      • http://www.facebook.com/joelscopeland Joel Copeland

        @MGAMBA: Sorry, I meant to type “WELL SPOKEN”!! Nicely stated, indeed!

      • http://DWFields.com DWFields

        @Mgamba: Partially right, but not completely.
        * Sand Creek: Mostly right here–though before the massacre all the soldiers were drunk in anticipation of an easy victory (very little pretense even of expecting return fire.)
        * Ludlow Mine: Instigated and financed by none other than John D. Rockerfeller because he didn’t want to pay the miners more money. The miners, incidentally, armed themselves and retaliated.
        * St. Petersburg Square: More than 3,000 individuals approaching as 6 massive groups approaching the Winter Palace guarded by a fraction of that number of soldiers. While the demonstration was intended as peaceful, to the commander of those forces they looked like an organized mob in a country already rife with revolutionary activities. While those soldiers were definitely in the wrong, at the time they were in fear of their own lives.
        * Kent State: As has been brought up elsewhere in this discussion, Kent State was essentially triggered by violence three days previously where cars and store fronts were damaged by drunken protesters. When police arrived to attempt to restore order, rocks and bottles were thrown at police as well. The situation was made worse by anonymous threats made to businesses and individuals on Saturday, which caused the governor to call in the National Guard. That evening, somebody torched the ROTC building on campus, making the protest anything BUT peaceful.
        On Sunday, the students were peaceful, though adamant about their protests and resorted to civil disobedience–holding a sit-in at a major intersection. While the National Guardsmen arrested several students, some of them were wounded by the soldiers’ bayonets. These Guardsmen, by the way, were under the orders of the Governor of the state, not any formal military command.
        On the final day of the protests–Monday, May 4th–the students were ordered to disperse by a campus policeman, riding in an Army jeep. The immediate response was violent–again rocks and bottles thrown, forcing the vehicle to retreat. As the crowd moved towards the Commons–the traditional gathering place on campus–the Major in charge turned and fired his handgun, later reporting he had been fired on. His reaction sparked a short round of gunshots from troops around him. However, at no point were they under orders to fire on the students and as such, except for the Governor of the state, this could not be considered the “government” firing on innocents.

        In two specific cases, Money was behind the incidents as both Ludlow Mine and Sand Creek involved active interest in financial gain by the territory. St. Petersburg and Kent State involved soldiers who were in one way or another in fear of their lives–both perceiving the movement of the crowd as an attack on their persons. As such, none of these arguments supports any discussion about “flash mobs” and the supposed “need” for high-capacity magazines in civilian weapons.

    • Don 2

      And when one of the members of the mob pulls out their own .45 with 15-rounds in it, you know what you can do with your single shot .22 or muzzle loader?

      • 45caliber

        That is the problem. The criminals can have the high capacity nasty looking guns. The honest people can’t.

      • Dennis48e

        Don re-read my comment and note the insertion immediately after Mr Livingston’s name.

      • eddie47d

        Where’s the problem Caliber? If a criminal gets caught with an unauthorized weapon he’s still a criminal and will go to prison for it. You make it sound like there is this secret gun fairy who hand out high capacity weapons to them to harass ordinary citizens. Heck, if you get caught with one just add an additional 2-20 years on the sentence if needed.

      • Vicki

        eddie47d says:
        “Where’s the problem Caliber? If a criminal gets caught with an unauthorized weapon he’s still a criminal and will go to prison for it.”

        Which is why all those criminals got rid of their guns. Thus we couldn’t possibly have the shootings in Chicago unless the police are doing it. Is that your claim eddie?

        - eddie47d: “You make it sound like there is this secret gun fairy who hand out high capacity weapons to them to harass ordinary citizens.”

        Why yes there is. And he has a name. Eric.

      • http://www.facebook.com/carline.long Carline D. Long Jr.

        @ Eddie, seems i heard thousands turned in for denied NICS checks and total of 72 prosecuted. You sure about your statement ?

      • eddie47d

        Good Point Carline. Hmmm!.

      • HOREDOG

        NEVER SEEN A 5 WITH A 15RD MAG

      • http://Yahoo Maynard

        As a confirmed conspiracy nut, I am pretty sure those mass shootings are caused by the government through mind control to get the sheeple to demand that our government protect us. The government has all the tactics in place: the Patriot Act, Homeland Security, FEMA, the billions of hollow point bullets, the Fusion camps, the returning battle tested soldiers that enjoy intimidating and attacking defenseless civilians, The ones who won’t are being weeded out.
        They just want to make it a bit safer by grabbing our guns so they can cart us away without a scratch. They are soon going to have those nice domestic drones both parties voted to appropriate $63 billion for. Now, I wouldn’t put it past them to encourage or have operatives among those “flash mobs.” If the people won’t give up their defenses when little kids and movie goers are blasted, maybe having those nasty “dark skinted” brutes taking advantage of shopkeepers will help.
        How many of you have watched Jesse Ventura’s series or checked into the You-tube videos showing you those human roach motels where you can check in but you won’t check out? HOW do you explain the thousands and thousands of big plastic boxes that look like comfy caskets to accommodate a crowd.of cadavers? Smoking the dead in crematoriums is a dead give-away.
        Let’s stop quibbling about who’s a communist or a fascist. Both sides use the same tactics. Kill, spy on,kill, suppress, incarcerate indefinitely (as approved of by NDAA 2012 Obomba signed after saying he was going to veto.) Remember Papa ‘n Jeb visited him at the White House right after to pat his wooly head and tell him he is a good little puppet?
        All you that see a Commie in every corner, how do you explain all these supposed conservatives marching us to the Police State like that South Carolina Senator? (You know the butterball who tried to get Clinton’s scalp over the Monica Lewinsky affair? If she wasn’t a plant I’ll eat my hat. What girl keeps a cum stained dress as a trophy or confides in a gal who just coincidentally works at the Pentagon and uses a tape recorder during girl talk? What a Tripp!) And if you think Clinton is a liberal, what about the cocaine drops when he was governor or Waco and Oklahoma City?) Both sides of the political spectrum fear that their squandering our economy for Iraq’s and Afghanistan’s filthy fossil fuels and allowing the banksters to rip us off and the venture (VULTURE) capitalists confiscating our businesses and shipping ‘em off to slave labor countries is gonna get the common sheeple a bit fed up. Sure they can distract us into fighting amongst ourselves for a while, but they suspect that ruse can only last so long before we see them for what they are: rip-off artists and future dictators.
        People unite to restore our Rights!
        He who would give up freedom for security deserves neither. Ben Franklin

    • Don 2

      Dennis,

      Got the sarcasm point you made. Unfortunately, many anti-gun Democrats actually agree with the single shot philosophy. Last month, a downstate New York Democrat(NYC) politician actually proposed a one bullet (Barney Fife) maximum per gun in the new New York Safe Act. It stands at 7-rounds under the new law, but some of these Communist cannot wait to totally ban guns and their lack of patience is obvious. Governor Andrew Cuomo(Communist – NY) already mentioned confiscating guns in New York.

      • carrobin

        Funny how i haven’t heard much about these “mobs” although I’ve lived in Manhattan for 40 years now. If those shop owners had automatic weapons, I’d do all my shopping online–who needs to get caught in a spray of bullets?

      • Vicki

        Jeremy, who posts here on PLD, actually suggested that we carry more guns to compensate for the limited magazines. Imagine carrying around 30 one shot pistols. Since concealed carry is not permitted (in violation of the 2nd) we would have to make them at least decorative. :)

      • Jeremy Leochner

        Vicki I never said carry one shot pistols. And I post on here from a PC not a PLD. No one needs to carry around a gun with a 30 round magazine. And I say again. If these mobs are so common the problem is law enforcement. We need to get law enforcement to get their heads out of their asses and start protecting people instead of expecting people to arm themselves like its the wild west.

      • JeffH

        Jeremy, pardon me for saying his but you are dumber than a rock!

        PC=personal computer
        PLD=Personal Liberty Digest

        The rest of your 30 round magazine comment and the police need to protect us is just as dumb.

        You are getting more pathetic by the day. You must be related to Karolyn and eddie.

      • eddie47d

        Too bad Jeff H is smarter than that rock though!

      • Proteus1946

        Don 2 and Vicki:

        Do either, or both, of you routinely carry a fully loaded semi-auto rifle into the grocery store or mall when you do your shopping? Do you really want to? Maybe you would be well advised to remain hunkered down in your bunker (with your arsenal) so you can fight off the 1st Marine Division when they come to take away your guns.

        Or is all your blathering really about:
        Ma-cho macho man,
        I wanna be a macho man.

        Get real – both of you.

      • Don 2

        Proteus1946,

        Were you trying to say something? Your reference to semi-auto rifles is confusing. I have no clue what you are basing your statements on? It certainly wasn’t anything that I said. Did you stop taking your meds?

    • Mel Barnhart

      Better still, why not point your finger and say (loudly) POW, POW!

    • Dale Patterson

      Single shot 22′s or muzzle loaders? Are you some sort of SUPER FOOL ?! Allow me to help you understand how STU-PID that statement is. 20, 30 or 40 people flash mob your establishment and you fire a single shot weapon, by the time you reload that “fire arm” 10 of those people are STOMPING you to death. Yea, good plan; idiot. A little suggestion from an old Marine that will help you protect your business and keep you alive . . . go big or go home ’cause if you don’t you’ll go to hell.

    • no kidding screwball

      Dear idiot.
      when Bush was president Sadam Hussein said the reason US won the desert storm war was because the US had the longer arrows..

    • http://www.facebook.com/benjamin.fox.98892 Benjamin Fox

      Dennis the menis, 48 ways to eat up America people; if the crooks have bigger clips your idea is a joke at best. they don’t buy them or have back ground checks and could care less about ink on paper that they don’t obey to begin with. The government has no right to disarm honest citizens and make us victim’s of those who are lawless and to become a nazi country where only the government and dictators have weapons, the reason for the second ammendment is to protect the first and the rest from a Hitlerish government. You learned noting from real history or you wouldn’t comment so foolishly as you have.

      • Dennis48e

        Benjamin, are you and Dale Patterson naturaly stupid or deliberately stupid? I specificaly told you my comment was sarcasm because I knew there were those who would not recognize it as such otherwise. Even with that notation included in the comment you two still could not recognize it as such.

    • Rock Savage

      Dennis48e

      Obviously, you don’t live in New York City. One of the best ways to get killed would be to do the very thing you said one should or could do.

      Let me tell you what would happen as you suggest.

      Flash mob suddenly appears at Dennis48e’s newsstand. You (Dennis) feel justified in discharging your (as you put it) “22 rifle” into the air as a warning to the flash mob and about a dozen of them pull out Uzis and Glocks and shoot you multiple times. In the process some of your customers also get shot.

      The good news: you survive.

      The bad news: (1) because you “pissed-off” the flash mob, in addition to shooting you, they also burned down your newsstand and inventories; (2) the outrageous hospital bills are rejected by your insurance company because they claim it was your fault you were shot; (3) the NYPD arrests you for discharging a firearm within it’s city limits, frightening NY’s citizens, etc. etc., etc.; (4) you post a $10,000 bond to get out of jail and go to see a lawyer; (5) lawyer demands a retainer of $5,000 before going forward with your pending criminal charges and upcoming civil proceedings.

      • independant thinker

        Rock Savage I say the same thing to you I said to Benjamin and dale Patterson:

        are you naturaly stupid or deliberately stupid? I specificaly told you my comment was sarcasm because I knew there were those who would not recognize it as such otherwise. Even with that notation included in the comment you still could not recognize it as such.

  • Jeremy Leochner

    Maybe keep a few guns with 10 round magazine capacity on hand. If ten round magazines are not allowed than a few seven round ones. Firing a few shots might get their attention and make them back off. And if worse comes to worse I am sure taking out a dozen or so members will bring most of the mob to their sober senses. And if these flash mobs are so prevalent I would say New York City needs to take a serious look at their law enforcement. Perhaps focus less on apprehending people for having drinks that are bigger than 16 oz and more on clamping down on flash mobs. I think the store owners have the right idea to install cameras. Get them as high tech and with the best definition possible to help pick out faces and identify mob members.

    • Vicki

      Why stop at 7 rounds Jeremy. Lets go back to single shot pistols and we can all carry around several dozen. Since concealed carry is mostly a nono we can make them decorative.

      • Jeremy Leochner

        I am trying to be reasonable Vicki. Like I said if ten round magazines are legal than have a couple of those. I can respect peoples concern about flash mobs. And I think guns are necessary against such a threat. But a couple guns with ten or even seven round capacity should be enough to fight them off or at least get them to come to their senses. No one wants to be shot. Not even mob mentality can subdue the self preservation instinct once bullets start flying.

        • http://www.boblivingstonletter.com/ Bob Livingston

          Dear Jeremy Leochner,

          You write: “I am trying to be reasonable Vicki.” Then they can be really “reasonable” and just throw cotton balls and confetti in their direction as a deterrent.

          Best wishes,
          Bob

      • Vicki

        That is not being reasonable. That is giving in. Since some of the mass shootings they are using to justify taking away YOUR right to keep and bear arms were done with guns that had 10 round magazines they will come for those next. Then they will come for 7 round magazines. then for any gun that has a detachable magazine (already true in Calif) then they will come for……..

        Hence my comment about single shot pistols.

        ~300 MILLION Americans (I presume this also includes you) DIDN’T SHOOT ANYONE.

        STOP Punishing the INNOCENT for the acts of a few

        STOP IT
        STOP IT NOW.

      • TheTruthHurts

        Honestly, a muzzle loader is the best option, cuz, ya know, that’s what our founding fathers had since flash mobs were all the craze back then…

        Although an AR-15 would ‘look scary’ I think a double barrel shotgun with a wide choke bird shot to spray em would be much more effective at crowd control

      • TheTruthHurts
      • eddie47d

        Sorry Bob and Vicki that’s not a solid reason or even a valid reason. Number one not all flash mobs are looters. Number two if they are looters they will be dispersed throughout the store and will hit quickly and be out of there in a “flash”. Number three there will also be other customers in the store so any fool who starts to have a shoot out with a semi-automatic will be killing or injuring them too! Bad idea all the way around!

        • http://www.boblivingstonletter.com/ Bob Livingston

          Dear eddi447d,

          You write: “Number one not all flash mobs are looters.” But the ones I’m addressing in this article are.

          You write: “Number two if they are looters they will be dispersed throughout the store and will hit quickly and be out of there in a “flash”.” Not in the examples I gave. And even if that’s the case, a store owner with a “scary-looking” personal defense weapon standing at the door would be a deterrent to this type of activity, would it not?

          You write: “Number three there will also be other customers in the store so any fool who starts to have a shoot out with a semi-automatic will be killing or injuring them too!” And no responsible gun owner would fire indiscriminately.

          eddie47d, with all due respect, are you really as stupid as you come across, or is this an act?

          Best wishes,
          Bob

      • 45caliber

        eddie:

        I’d like the answer to Bob Livingstone’s question too. Are you really that stupid or just want to appear that way??

      • eddie47d

        Bob and Caliber45; Why have a semi-automatic in a crowded situation unless you are willing to use it. Since you won’t use it then why have it so that makes you more on the ignorant side wouldn’t you think. Those flash mobbers already know no store owners is going to wildly shoot up his own store. Very few if any store owners will willfully open fire and kill “regular” customers to make a point in getting rid of flash mobbers. So maybe you two better place those thinking caps back on before calling someone else stupid! Another thing how many store owners know when a flash mob is going to hit Bob? I bet its ZERO and no they wouldn’t be standing at the door waiting on something they are not aware of! Nice try and Best Wishes to both of you.

        • http://www.boblivingstonletter.com/ Bob Livingston

          Dear eddie47d,

          You just answered my question.

          Best wishes,
          Bob

      • eddie47d

        Yes Bob the Flash Mobs are going to announce their coming and goings with a daily news “flash”. That ought to really prep the store owners! What a hoot!

      • TML

        I am entirely against the banning of the so-called assault weapon and large capacity magazines for reasons that do not even require me to qualify it with a “need”. It is a right protected by the 2nd Amendment of the Constitution, philosophized greatly by the founding era of the hope that the true need should never arise, and sound arguments can be made using the rulings of the Supreme Court, as well as how such prohibitions would be ineffective.

        Asking someone to qualify it with a need is as dubious a question as “if you have nothing to hide, what’s the problem?” – Yet even if we entertain the question, we can point to incidents like the L.A. riots of 1992 to show a practical need.

        That said; this flash mob scenario certainly not a good example of ‘why’ large capacity magazines are ‘needed’.

        Considering the reality that firing into a crowd of 20-40+ criminals “crawling over one another like a pack of dogs scuffling over one food bowl”, mixed with innocent people, simply isn’t a moral or civilized option, even if they are throwing bottles… and considering the entire nature of a flash mob (they spring up almost instantaneously, loot and ransack a business and disperse within a minute or two) it renders such a weapon useless even as a “deterrent”. It could only be effective then in dispersing the criminals (and barely effective even at that because of that same nature of flash mobs). At that point it doesn’t matter if it’s a 6 shooter, shot gun, or the so-called assault rifle… the most anyone could do is fire rounds into the ceiling to scare them off.

        For this particular strategy (flash mobs) a different approach would be needed to truly curtail, deter, defend, or simple prosecute these types of crimes.

      • Jeremy Leochner

        With respect Mr. Livingston your distorting what I said. I suggested that store owners keep several guns whether hand guns or shot guns or rifles or whatever is available. I suggested that said guns have either a ten round magazine or if that is not allowed a seven round magazine. With two hand guns with a ten round magazine capacity in the hands of a trained shooter a store owner could take out any where from 14 to 20 people. A mob losing half their number is going to put some sense in the remaining members. And if the mob is no more than 20 people I would say two hand guns with a ten round capacity should be plenty enough to handle them. However I also think law enforcement needs to step up its game if these flash mobs are so common.

      • Chuck S

        Eddie, do you really think a store owner would blindly shoot up his store or customers? Surely he’d aim his gun at the bad guys. Or don’t you understand semi-automatics? Do you think we’re talking automatics? An automatic, like a machine gun, shoots continually while you’re holding the trigger back. Maybe you’re thinking that because they shoot continually, they spray the bullets indiscriminately. Automatics are basically illegal and very rare. We’re actually talking semi-automatics, which I saw someone post amount to 85% of guns sold. Revolvers are sort of semi-automatics also. A semi shoots one bullet every time you pull the trigger. so you certainly can and should aim. A lot of news media reports wrongly say automatic, which has probably confused a lot of people.

        If there are a lot of bad guys close together, you can shoot a lot of bullets fast with a somewhat sloppy aim.

        Incidentally, a shotgun is somewhat indiscriminate. If bad guys are close to good guys, you really don’t want to use a shotgun.

        In the riots in Los Angelos, store owners who had 30-round magazines didn’t get their businesses burned down. People in New Orleans after Katrina and in New York after Sandy probably needed 30 round magazines to protect themselves.

      • 45caliber

        eddie:

        I agree with Bob. You did answer that question. You don’t want to appear that way.

      • TML

        Chuck S says, “a store owner would blindly shoot up his store or customers? Surely he’d aim his gun at the bad guys.”

        I don’t think aiming or not is the issue. If it’s a group of youths crawling all over each other like a pack of dogs, with innocent civilians in the mix, even shooting in the direction of the crowd wouldn’t be acceptable. This is a flash mob… we are talking about 20 to 40 people or more 1 to 2 minutes start to finish, stealing products. You could even shoot one of them, and that individual could claim he was one of the innocent bystanders and the burden of proving otherwise would rest upon you.

      • Opal the Gem

        ‘Eddie, do you really think a store owner would blindly shoot up his store or customers?”

        Yes Chuck eddie does believe that.

    • http://www.boblivingstonletter.com/ Bob Livingston

      Dear Jeremy Leochner,

      You write: “Maybe keep a few guns with 10 round magazine capacity on hand. If ten round magazines are not allowed than a few seven round ones.” Or the store owners could just use a sack of rocks.

      Best wishes,
      Bob

      • Jeremy Leochner

        Mr. Livingston how exactly does a few guns with 10 round magazine capacity or even a few guns with seven round capacity equate to “a sack of rocks”. How does having the ability to wound or kill a couple dozen people equate to just throwing rocks.

      • 45caliber

        Jeremy:

        If you can throw rocks and you use large ones, you can wound and kill too. Not long ago a Border Patrol agent in CA was killed by Mexican teens throwing rocks and bricks. Bob’s comment is mean to point out that if you REALLY want to kill someone you don’t need large magazines to do it.

      • Vicki

        Jeremy Leochner says:
        “How does having the ability to wound or kill a couple dozen people equate to just throwing rocks.”

        I’m glad you asked. A firearm has one and only one function. To throw rocks more efficiently. The rocks are (usually) made out of 1 or 2 elements. From the days of throwing rocks by hand thru the sling, bola, etc the practice of throwing rocks has been around for a VERY long time.

        The firearm is particularly useful in allowing people to stand successfully against the predator. It has enabled us to actually become civilized. http://jpfo.org/articles-assd02/marko.htm

      • Jeremy Leochner

        Vicki if you recall our discussion on the article about hiding during a mass shooting you made a post about the need for preparation. You said that I come down on the side of preparation. I responded by pointing out that while I support preparation I oppose what I see as paranoia. The comment by Mr. Livingston is an example. I am the guy who is strong for gun control. And yet I am also the one who supports store owners keeping several guns with ten round magazine capacity and I basically gave my full support to them opening fire on a mob that attacks them. Yet Mr. Livingston seems to be disparaging my argument. Evidently being armed with several guns with ten round capacity just is not enough. Having several guns with ten round magazines is no different than just throwing rocks evidently. I see an argument like that as paranoia not preparation.

      • JeffH

        Jeremy says “Yet Mr. Livingston seems to be disparaging my argument”
        Here is a fine example of the anti-gun arguements made by people like eddie and Jeremy.
        http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=84ptFVq22PY

        You have no valid arguement, just a lot of anti-gun hyperbole. You have absolutley no right to tell me what I need and what I don’t need and you have no right to tell government to what I need and what I don’t need.

        Molṑn Labé – if you don’t want me to have a modern sporting rifle, a handgun or high capacity magazines then feel free to try to take them away. I will protect myself, my family and my property from evil by whatever means I deem necessary.

      • Average Joe

        Why on earth would anyone want to carry “several guns with 7-10 rounds?, when it is so much simpler to carry one guns w/ multiple magazines that carry many more rounds? Or are you simply trying to give a “show of force” by displaying his many weapons…and hope that one of the mob doesn’t get hold of a few of these….extra guns?
        When defending one’s life or property…efficiency counts…and carrying multiple guns with low capacity is not as efficient as one weapon with enough rounds to do the job…..
        Your idea of multiple guns….makes about as much sense as installing screen doors on a submarine….

        AJ

      • Average Joe

        BTW, that was directed @Jeremy Leochner

      • eddie47d

        Keep on killing us with your criminal mind Jeff H. Your more dangerous than that Capone guy!

      • Jeremy Leochner

        Let me get this straight Jeff. You consider what I am saying hyperbole. But you see nothing wrong with comparing multiple guns with 10 shot capacity to throwing rocks.

      • Jeremy Leochner

        Average Joe I would have imagined that multiple guns would provide multiple lines of fire. If it would be more efficient and effective to have one gun and numerous magazines by all means. No one needs a magazine with more than ten rounds. If they have multiple magazines and can change them out quickly I see no reason why they should not be able to drive away a mob of 20 or 30 or even 40 people. When bullets start flying self preservation kicks in. Even mob members know when to look out for number one and get away.

      • Dennis48e

        “Average Joe I would have imagined that multiple guns would provide multiple lines of fire. ”

        Jeremy the young and naive (or is it deliberately obtuse?). Having multiple guns does NOT give you multiple lines of fire. I have yet to see anyone who can be in multiple places at the same time which is what would be necessary for you to have multiple lines of fire.

      • Average Joe

        Jeremy Leochner ,

        “Even mob members know when to look out for number one and get away.”

        Get away? No,no,no,…the idea is to hold them until the police arrive to arrest them….and having a 30 round magazine is pretty much enough to hold them at bay…or get them killed…their choice.

        “No one needs a magazine with more than ten rounds. ”

        Says who? I just bought another 3 x 30 rd. mags today (and 500 rds.)….sure does make me feel safer knowing that I have 150 rds. before I need to start reloading magazines…..I have too much ammo….said no one ever…..

        AJ

      • JeffH

        Yeah Jeremy, I consider the majority of your comments to be “hyperbole” just like the majority of the thoughtless progressive morons that qualify their anti-Constitutional arguements with worthless references to progressive talking points, ie, hyperbole.

        Molon Labe!

        Don’t tread on me!

      • JeffH

        eddie chimes in with another stupid and meaningless comment, “Keep on killing us with your criminal mind Jeff H. Your more dangerous than that Capone guy!”

        It’s great to see Mr. Livingston open up and say what so many of us have been saying for a few years now.

        eddie, you really are stupid and your stupid comments support your stupidity.

    • Don 2

      Gov. Cuomo(Communist – NY) already came for the 10-round magazine last month with passage of the New York Safe Act. No more than 7-rounds are permitted under the new law. Even getting a concealed carry pistol permit in NYC is next to impossible, except for cops, ex-cops, hollywood stars, and the politically well-connected. When you need approval from the police commissioner, under the most anti-gun mayor(Bloomberg(Communist – NY) in the country, you’re more likely to win a million dollar lottery than you are to be granted a concealed carry permit. In NYC, a premises only permit is pretty much the standard for those with any permit at all.

      • 45caliber

        Don:

        Several years ago in NYC, a criminal broke into an apartment of a young couple. He stabbed the husband over twenty times and then attacked the wife, slashing her and attempting to get her clothing off so he could rape and then kill her. The husband crawled to a couch, pulled out a .22 pistol and shot the attacker in the. He ran off. The attacker was caught when he went to a hospital for treatment. He was found to be “off his meds” and spent two months or so in a hospital to get back on again. No charges were filed by the DA against him because “he wasn’t responsible for his actions when off the medicine.” Instead the DA filed charges against the husband (who spent more time in the hospital than the attacker did.) That called for a manditory 1 year prison sentence. The judge dismissed it. The reporter asked the DA while he filed the charges. The DA said, “he didn’t need to shoot the attacker. We would have found the man and punished him. But we need to stop this ‘home based vigilanteism’ before the people in the US believe it is okay.”

      • Don 2

        45 Caliber,

        New York City is a different planet. That’s what happens when the libs take over. Western and Upstate NY would love nothing better than to be rid of them and their idiocy. Their stupid mayor(Bloomberg) actually invited all illegals in the country to come to New York, and we’ll take care of them. Who’s the we here? He’s a billionaire, and certainly isn’t going to spend his own money. New York is one of a number of states in a spending death spiral.

    • TeaParty Patriot (TPP)

      You are creating more problems with your solution to a problem intentionally created by gun control freaks. the first one being a mob would soon be aware that you have two guns and the second gun would be the target of their theft. I would not want to be the one who furnishes a mob with a gun. The way the NY police and anti gunners work you would be charged with furnishing guns to criminals. You did not provide adequate security for the second gun. the second problem that I see with your plan is that if you discharge a gun within NYC YOU can be charged with a crime worse than flash mobbing and if you are aiming or injuring a minority even one mobbing you, with the current racist AG and racist president you are in deep, deep ,deep [expletive deleted]. According to their racist thinking There is NO EXCUSE for using this type of force against a minority even if the bastard is trying to kill you. Martin in Florida is a good example.

      • 45caliber

        TPP:

        I don’t know what the sentence is for shooting someone with an “illegal” gun in NYC but I know that there is a manditory 1 year sentence for POSSESSING a gun there without a license.

    • Don 2

      Jeremy,

      You cannot use ‘deadly force’ on a person in New York State for simple petit larceny. If you do, you will be the one going to the pokey, probably for the rest of your natural life.

      • Jeremy Leochner

        I wasn’t talking about larceny. I was talking about self defense if the mob comes at you. And you can always fire a few warning shots or just show off your gun and tell the mob to get out of there. If they come at you open fire.

      • 45caliber

        Jeremy:

        It is considered “deadly force” by the government if you even show a gun as a warning. Officially you are threatening to use deadly force and it is the same as using it.

      • Jeremy Leochner

        Well than maybe the law should be changed. I don’t like violence. So I would much prefer people threatening to shoot rather than having to shoot.

      • Opal the Gem

        “I don’t like violence. ”

        I do not like violence either Jeremy. However, I am realistic enough to know that a person coming at me with evil/violent intent must be met with equal or superior violence to stop him and that is what I have every intention of doing if the situation should present itself.

    • Dan

      If you are pulling out a gun to scare people, and you fire warning shots…you are part of the problem. Do you ever hear of well trained cops firing warning shots? NO!
      If you pull a gun, it should only be pointed at things you want to destroy…warning shots go ….you dont know where.

      • Thomas Sherman

        And if you fire a warning shot, that cost three times per round more, thanks to Obama!!

    • 45caliber

      Jeremy!

      You should know that those 22 oz. drinks are much the most dangerous! After all, they can KILL people! (Or at least make them run over people on their way to the restroom!)

    • Thomas Sherman

      If you have two or more guns, don,t shoot them to close together or they might think you have a machine gun!!!

    • Bill

      We need to take a lesson from the Korean business owners who protected their business’s during the riots in LA. They all had large capacity semi automatic rifles. And guess what, no one assauted their business’s and no one was killed by them.

      Speak softly and carry a big stick

      • eddie47d

        Non-Sequitur! Totally different circumstances.

      • Vicki

        eddie47d says:
        “Non-Sequitur! Totally different circumstances.”

        How? There were mobs. They flashed thru businesses. Looting and pillaging, The police were only HOURS away. Oh the term “flash mob” hadn’t been invented yet.

        Yep different.

    • Kim

      Finally someone hit the nail on the head. Where are the police and why are they not beefed up to handle these problems?
      Thank you for common sense.

    • no kidding screwball

      Hell no! Keep guns, granades, bombs, + anyother firepower you can think or cause, when the bad boys are coming for you they don’t give you no break and they will not stop till you go down so honor yourself well and take out as many or them as possible

    • http://www.facebook.com/benjamin.fox.98892 Benjamin Fox

      Jeremy as always your foolish idea’s come up again. What if the 10 round or 7 rounds don’t stop them? Your dead at best and why because people like you don’t understand the lawless who don’t play by your stupid rules. You live in a what if dream world where you decide the outcome and that isn’t the real world, the second ammendment was written because the founding fathers came from lands where only the king, queen and their military had weapons and they wanted to insure that wouldn’t happen here but, they didn’t expect those like you to want to live in slavery as you do. You eddie teddy and rightbrainstinker are just totally commies who want to live on the plantation and be taken care of. I served and fought for this country to be free and not run by a out of control nazi government. Come for my weapons and find yourself in a 6′ grave. Live Free or Die and don’t die for the cowards who depend on the government.

      • Jeremy Leochner

        Ben a bullet is a bullet. It can kill someone whether they are in a mob or not. Having a couple guns with a ten round magazine capacity grants someone the power to kill more than a dozen people. That is not expecting people to just play by my rules or my views of things.

        As for the government we are no where near Nazi Germany. And no one is coming for any ones guns. With respect Ben threatening to kill people over a policy disagreement is not the best way to support ones argument.

  • JimH

    Right now I can legally own a semi- automatic rifle that can hold a large capacity magazine. I have the right and freedom to do this.(for now)
    I don’t have to show a “need” for one. I still have the “right” to own one.
    Criminals or madmen don’t care if the law says you can’t have one and law abiding people aren’t the ones you have to worry about.
    All that will happen is good people will just have more rights, freedoms and liberty’s taken from them and madmen and criminals will still be dangerous.
    Don’t be so willing to give up anything and get nothing in return.
    My large capacity magazine is like a fire extinguisher or first aid kit. I hope I never “need” it. but if I do I’ll have one.

    • http://www.facebook.com/benjamin.fox.98892 Benjamin Fox

      JimH, you make to much sense for the cowards that would die rather then fight, I’m with you bud, God Bless and keep your powder dry and free from a nazi govenment.

  • RICK

    I suggest a simple idea for anyone who does not fee safe in any or the Big Cities.
    Make plans right now and JUST MOVE OUT.
    I am reasonably sure that the taxes would be less, the services are better and you and your family will be much safer.
    It will take a little time to do this, but your life will be much better, happier, safer.
    Let the Big City People Rot in their Big CORRUPT City.

    • dennis

      i live in a small town in a rural area of southern illinois, chicago is 400 miles away thank god,can tell u one thing their are more guns in our county than people, we absouletly would not put up with what goes on in these big cities, and i am quite sure in the rural areas and small towns across this country they wouldn’t either, all this gun control crap is not going to be complied with in the rural areas anyway chicago has a gang problem and a drug problem let the gangbangers kill each other who cares lots of the big city folks think we in the rural areas are just a bunch of redneck hillbillys guess maybe we are but we are armed redneck hillbillys and for the most part know how to use them some of the yote hunters that’s short for coyote use AR’S and 20 or 30 round mags, can flat burn a yote up running across a field with that firepower, and on confisation of any or all firearms as the old saying goes MAKE EM TAKE EM

      • 45caliber

        dennis:

        The lib arguement is that the big cities wouldn’t have the guns and problems if we in the sticks weren’t providing them with guns. It isn’t true but that is the arguement they want to use to get rid of our guns. They are NOT worried about the criminals. They are worried about the honest citizens objecting to what they want to do.

      • eddie47d

        You can make your points about self defense but don’t lie about those weapons not coming from the “sticks”. 80% of all handgun confiscated in NYC come from out of state and most are traced to the Carolinas. Most of the others come from N H and Vermont. The same in Massachusetts where most weapons are traced to N H and Vermont. Interstate trafficking is a huge problem in the US.

      • 45caliber

        eddie:

        I see. It is the fault of those in other states if someone in NYC wants to kill someone. Right. I say it is the fault of the one doing it. If you want to stop those shootings, arrest the crimnal after the first act (which is done in the US in 90+% of the time), convict him, and then execute him instead of patting him on the hand and putting him in jail for twenty years first in hope he can get out of it. He at least won’t do it again and it will stop many others who have the same idea. But that is inhumane! Isn’t it?

      • Vicki

        eddie47d says:
        “You can make your points about self defense but don’t lie about those weapons not coming from the “sticks”.

        Eddie. Did you know that despite all those firearms that

        ~300 MILLION AMERICANS DID NOT SHOOT ANYONE.

        STOP PUNISHING THE INNOCENT for the acts of a few.

        STOP IT
        STOP IT NOW

      • eddie47d

        Broken record Vicki . Getting scratchier by the day!

  • http://www.facebook.com/grhornphoto George R. Horn

    We are talking about flash mobs and weapons, why is there a flash mob in the first place? What drives these young people to act in such a way? For the most part I see young black males, is it a lack of jobs, or guidance, I am not sure. Now if a store owner shoots a number of them what will then happen, the store owner will more than likely get sued by an unscrupulous lawyer representing the person shot. Then we have to deal with juries that in my estimation are just too dumb to actually come to a real logical decision. Large capacity magazines, in my estimation should be allowed, they don’t do anything to anyone without human input.

    • rendarsmith

      Not to mention all the media coverage against him like we see in the Trayvon Martin case.

    • Bill

      The reason we are having this problem in the first place is because Obama has run our economy into the toilet and there are very limited opportunities for young people.

      Whether Obama did it intentionally or he is just plain stupid, he still did it. We need to go back to the basics of free market capitalism and stop promoting poverty over prosperity

      • eddie47d

        Your so naive Bill that problem started 30 years ago with all the outsourcing and our capitalists looking for cheap labor throughout the world. NAFTA and the loosening of banking regulations was the clincher and Obama wasn’t involved in either.

      • Bill

        Eddy,
        And the outsourcing will continue as long as the cost of business is so high. I just read that GM and Chrysler are building plants in China. I thought your lord and savior rescued those industries. No Eddy, you are the one who does not know how things work

      • eddie47d

        McDonald’s and KFC, etc also build in China ! Get the drift… INTERNATIONAL MARKETS!

  • http://DWFields.com DWFields

    Any gun would be effectively useless against such a threat. Except for the individuals closest to the gun, the rest wouldn’t even know it was there and continue doing their thing. If any ONE of them happens to be carrying, there would be a cross-fire and likely the shop attendant killed for no legitimate reason. No, in that circumstance, a gun is the last thing you’d want to pull out. A mob would hardly even be slowed by one.

    You want to stop flash mobs? Turn the business into a trap. The mob hits, have bars drop across all windows and doors so they cannot escape and have the attendant protected by bulletproof glass (for a long time convenience stores already had that glass.) Mob enters, but cannot leave until police arrive. Security video offers visual proof of the crime, and the entire crowd is arrested and jailed. A few times of that and guess what? No more flash mobs. Nobody killed.

    • Charles

      Nice idea. I personally would add a halon system that accidentally triggers while they are trapped and my clerk was safely behind glass with an emergency escape fire hood. No shots fired and a nice example is made and the tax payers (us!) Don’t have to foot the bill for 30 trials.

      • TML

        Charles, if you are implying that a Halon system will kill everyone in the room, you should know that Halons are low-toxicity, clean, and remarkably safe for human exposure.

      • Vicki

        Charles. I hope you are not one of those who tell us that having a shootout with the mob is a bad thing. You just suggested murdering all the innocent customers trapped in there with the mob.

    • Vicki

      DWFields writes:
      “Mob enters, but cannot leave until police arrive. Security video offers visual proof of the crime, and the entire crowd is arrested and jailed. A few times of that and guess what? No more flash mobs. Nobody killed.”

      Ummm. Though the idea does sound appealing what is to stop the mob (it is a mob) from killing a few customers while they wait?

      • http://DWFields.com DWFields

        Nothing to stop them but a charge of Murder. Most of these flash mobs are just out for the quick raid for free food and maybe some minor products–maybe cash if they can grab the register. The point is that a gun is effectively useless in that kind of situation, no matter what the author says.

  • Jim

    Let,s just take all the liberal gun hating people and journalists and move them to the Mexican border for about a year where the illegals and drug runners come thru regularly and lets see if that changes their tune about high capacity magazines.

    • eddie47d

      What does that have to do with a flash mob in a convenience store Jim or are you spreading more of your usual good morning cheer? So you think merchandise is more important than than killing a few innocent customers? So you can have fun blasting away with your 30 round magazine weapon nilly willy? How would you like to be one of those customers mixed in with those robbers as the store owner blasts away? Think you won’t be one of the victims! Think again!

      • 45caliber

        I don’t believe Jim mentioned a flash mob, eddie. Oh, and please answer the question to you above. This is just another example of it.

      • eddie47d

        Jim is like you Caliber its so darn hard for you to stay on topic. Now if he asked me a question I will gladly answer it or was it another question somewhere else (neither of you specified)?

  • Dave67

    One thing you can always count on from Bob Livingston.

    Fear

    Just like Gayle Trotter who testified of Capital Hill that a woman needs a big gun to protect yerself from the 6-8 “bad guys” that break into women’s homes with the children in another room. They “need” a big gun to feel safe

    Where does this woman live? What a load of rubbish.

    http://www.mediaite.com/tv/female-gun-rights-advocate-to-congress-guns-make-women-safer/attachment/trotter/

    Fear, its what Bob Livingston trades in and what conservative buy from this sites, Fox news everyday. Does Bob talk about training or the storage of wepaons? Nah… That would be responsible.

    Does Bob talk about training in the proper use of weapons or the fact if you are not trained for the highly unlikely event of a breakin in your home/business that that you will most likely die in such and encounter.

    Does Bob talk about you are more likely to die from your own gun in a domestic dispute/sucide than any breakin? Nah…

    http://www.news-medical.net/news/20100204/Guns-in-homes-can-increase-risk-of-death-and-firearm-related-violence.aspx

    But no… Bog says you “need” high capacity magazines.

    Bob, stay in your home… Don’t leave… its a scary world outside and you will be safe when you have your high capacity magazine, a bazooka, dig a moat around your home and fill with red bellied piranha and set up a mine field on your property. Scared people like you need all the protection they can get.

    The sane people live their lives. Maybe you have not been to SE Washington DC, South Chicago, S LA, The Bronx and other “scary” places for you but I have. But I am sure you “heard” things from your fear network.

    Your article is a bad excuse for filling space.

    Wise up people. Or continue to be a scared little rabbit.

    Sincerely,

    Dave

    • http://www.boblivingstonletter.com/ Bob Livingston

      Dear Dave 67,

      Thank you for yet another non sequitur, ad hominem and fallacy-filled comment. I can always count on you, it seems.

      You write: “Scared people like you need all the protection they can get.” I am not frightened at all.

      You write: “Your article is a bad excuse for filling space.” Yet you still feel the need to come here and attempt to refute it–without addressing the actual theme–with your progressive/statist tripe. Why do you waste your time?

      Best wishes,
      Bob

      • Dave67

        Dear Bob,

        Someboy has to counter your propaganda,

        Really Bob? How many of these “flash mobs” happen and where do they happen? You take a small event and try and change all of society by that and get the mid-west, south crowd all scared.

        Yours is filled with fallacy either overt or by ommission so please stop acting like you are not a member of what Jon Stewart calls BS mountain which is Fox news and other conservative propagandists acting like the the world is something different that what it truly is.

        You are a fool if you think that arming more people with higher capacity magazines is the answer to your safety.

        This is another fear piece from you. I have spent much time in DC, New York, Chicago and LA and to hear ignorant propaganda like yours you make it sound like you set foot in these cities, you will be in mortal danger. I laugh at people like you in the 1980′s who when I told them that go to SE DC to have fun in clubs and they said, haven’t you heard? DC is the murder capital of the nation!!! You will get shot!!! I chuckle… I respond by if I go to that area and deal/buy drugs… you may have something.

        This BS from you is like saying… EVERYONE 9/11 happened!!!! DO NOT GO INTO ANY TALL BUILDINGS!!!! You will die from a terrorist attack.

        But I get it, you have a conservative bias and conservative prejudices, without fear… You have no leg to stand on when it comes to gun violence in America when you compare against what Obama is proposing. You need fear… Its what keeps the sheep in line.

        • http://www.boblivingstonletter.com/ Bob Livingston

          Dear Dave67,

          You write: “Someboy has to counter your propaganda,” But you never do. More often than not the response is nothing more than red herrings, straw men, ad hominems and other fallacies. Besides, according to most of the progressive/statists who come here, people who think as I do about liberty, the Constitution and government are a very small minority. Our numbers and message are irrelevant and no one wants to hear it. So again, why do so many of you waste your time on an irrelevant site with an irrelevant audience and an irrelevant message? You and others spend a lot of energy and time worrying over my “fear” pieces.

          Best wishes,
          Bob

      • Dave67

        Sorry bob,

        I am not interested in a “yes, you are so right” party. Its boring and I come here on the hope you or another one of your writers can say something intelligent to challenge my belief system (otherwise beliefs are not worth keeping if they can’t stand up to scrutiny) and get info from the few conservatives that are thoughtful about their fiscal conservatism (I have no use for social conservatives, they for the most part are a waste of carbon)

        You talk about “flash mobs” as if it is some regulat occurance driving fear. Out with it Bob… How many of these “flash mobs” happen in a country of 300 million people?

        This was one of your more sloppy articles… Like racist “steve” said…. call a spade a spade.

        • http://www.boblivingstonletter.com/ Bob Livingston

          Dear Dave67,

          You write: “You talk about “flash mobs” as if it is some regulat occurance driving fear. Out with it Bob… How many of these “flash mobs” happen in a country of 300 million people?” There are far more flash mobs than there are mass-shooting victims of “scary-looking” personal defense weapons but that hasn’t stopped the gun grabbers (you included) from wanting to ban them and/or high capacity magazines and set up a national gun registry.

          Best wishes,
          Bob

          P.S. Feel free to do a Google search to see how many there have been.

      • Dave67

        Oh and Bob,

        You do not have the market cornered on the interest/love in/for the US Constitution and Freedom. I know you think you do but you don’t.

        Liberals like myself love freedom just like you, we like to have the ability to determine our own destiny in life, just like you… If you bothered to know any of us, you would be more tempered in your BS.

        Love and kisses,

        Dave

      • 45caliber

        Dave:

        The Constitution is an all-or-nothing document. You can’t pick and choose which parts you like. The body specifies how the government is to be set up and run. The Amendments specify rights that the people excluded from government control. You can’t have freedom of religion or freedom of speech without the freedom to have guns to back those up. You can’t have the right to refuse to testify against yourself as long as courts can send you to jail for contempt when you refuse to testify. We respect those rights and are more than willing to give you those freedoms – including allowing you to get on this to comment – but we expect you to give us the same rights.

        And those rights are specific. You can’t read more into it than is there now although the courts and the libs certainly try.

      • Dave67

        45 Caliber?

        All or nothing? Really? Where does the Constitution define when life begins? Should I be able to yell “FIRE!!!” in a crowded theater or club?

        The Consitution like the Bible is selectively interpreted by each person to mean whatever their political ideaology says it means.

        The believe the 2nd Amendment did not account for the types of wepaons we have today or the size and system of gov/population we have today. Otherwise you should be able to own chem weapons, nukes, tanks, battleships. “Well regulated” in the 2nd amendment to me means reasonable measures to keep guns out of the hands of criminals and those with mental illness that should not have a gun.

        You may believe the 2nd Amendment means something entirely different. Its not all or nothing or black and white.

      • 45caliber

        dave:

        The Constitution does not define where life begins. Why should it? Abortion is not something you can prove under the Consittion and is certainly not shown as a “right”. Frankly, I can’t see why it is a right at all. Personally, if you want an abortion, go ahead. If you go to a bad place for doing it that is your choice. I’m big on people making their own choices and not depending upon others to do it for them. I think it is wrong to use it as birth control since I think people ought to be able to make better choices but if they can’t then they perhaps should be helped – by sterilizing them.

        Do you want to yell “Fire!” in a crowded theater? There is nothing to stop you. Punish you later, yes. But not stop you. But the laws the libs want passed banning guns is an attempt to stop me from having one. It does not stop me from killing – it only stops me from owning a gun.

        The Constitution is written as simply as possible so that there is NO reason to mean whatever you want it to mean. So it the Bible which is why most atheists complain about it. They want to do things that definately aren’t allowed by God as spelled out in the Bible. It they want to do those things, it’s alright with me as long as they don’t bother me and my family – but they have to be prepared to take the consequences.

        That is the problem with your interputation of what these means. You wish to interfere with the choices others make. I insist they are there to give others choices. You wish to eliminate all consequences – which cannot be done. There are always consequences. If you don’t like those consequences, don’t do the act that will cause it.

        Everything has black and white. There can sometimes be a gray area but not usually. And if you want to argue about that, where is the gray area in being pregnant or not?

      • Vicki

        Dave67 writes to Bob LIvingston:
        “You talk about “flash mobs” as if it is some regulat occurance driving fear. Out with it Bob… How many of these “flash mobs” happen in a country of 300 million people?”

        Nowhere near enough to justify disarming the rest of us. And since you mentioned it

        ~300 MILLION AMERICANS DID NOT SHOOT ANYONE.

        STOP PUNISHING THE INNOCENT for the acts of a (very) few.

        STOP IT
        STOP IT NOW

    • Don 2

      Dave 67,

      Hey tough guy, put a big sign in your yard stating, “THIS IS A GUN FREE RESIDENCE”

      • Dave67

        Where do I advoate a “gun free” zone? Its either one extreme or another for conservatives…

        Is it in your genes not to compromise or deal in rational moderation?

      • eddie47d

        Yes Don 2 where did he advocate for that? This article stinks to high heaven and full of holes like picture of Saddam at a target range!

      • 45caliber

        Dave:

        When someone is attempting to take away some of my rights and freedoms there is no compromise or moderation. Those are useful only when there is room for compromise. Besides, most wanting to deprive me of my rights and freedoms insist that compromise MUST be to agree with them. That is one thing wrong with Congress now.

      • Frank Kahn

        I saw that Dave wants a point by point so here it goes.

        Dave67 says:
        February 7, 2013 at 9:12 am

        BR549,

        The answer to the problem? Which one?

        Gun violence?

        1) background checks and a national database for ALL gun purchases – DEFINE BACKGROUND CHECK, STATE REASONING AND IMAGINED BENEFIT. EXPLAIN WHAT ALL MEANS AND GIVE INFORMATION OF WHO WILL DO IT, HOW IT WILL BE DONE AND PAID FOR.
        2) Extensive training on the use and storage of all weapons – I WAS ALREADY TRAINED EXTENSIVELY BY MY FATHER AND LATER BY THE MILITARY, WHAT ADDITIONAL TRAINING DO YOU IMAGINE IS NEEDED? GUN USE (SAFETY) IS MOSTLY COMMON SENSE BUT SOME MIGHT NEED AN EXPLANATION ABOUT NOT AIMING UNLESS YOU INTEND TO KILL. TRAINING ON STORAGE? THIS SPEAKS ONLY TO YOUR PERCEPTION OF WHAT IS NEEDED. A WEAPON IN A HOME THAT HAS RESPONSIBLE PEOPLE LIVING IN IT DOES NOT NEED SPECIAL STORAGE PRECAUTIONS. ANY STORAGE REQUIREMENT THAT HINDERS THE ABILITY TO ACCESS AND USE GUNS IS COUNTER PRODUCTIVE TO THEIR POSSESSION.
        3) 60 day waiting period – GOING OFF THE DEEP END DAVE? HEY, WHY STOP AT 60 DAYS, HOW ABOUT A 10 YEAR WAITING PERIOD. ARE YOU THINKING THAT, MAYBE, IF IT TAKES 60 DAYS TO GET THE GUN THE PERSON WILL STOP WANTING TO KILL PEOPLE? WHAT EXACTLY WILL 60 DAYS ACCOMPLISH? WHY DID YOU PICK THAT NUMBER? SINCE I ALREADY OWN 12 GUNS, HOW WILL WAITING FOR MY 13TH CHANGE ANYTHING?
        4) Psychological evaluations each year for every gun owner and anyone wanting a gun – THE DEEP END IS GETTING DEEPER. WE HAVE HOW MANY GUN OWNERS IN THE U.S.? LETS SAY ABOUT 90 MILLION PEOPLE. SO NOW YOU WANT TO HAVE A (QUESTIONABLE) PSYCHOLOGICAL EVALUATION FOR 90 MILLION PEOPLE EVERY YEAR, PLUS ADDITIONAL EVALUATIONS FOR NEW GUN OWNERS. LEAVING OUT THE QUESTION OF WHAT THE EVAL WOULD BE LOOKING FOR, AND WHAT WOULD DISQUALIFY YOU FROM PURCHASING / CONTINUING TO POSSESS, WHO WOULD DO THE EVALS AND WHO WOULD PAY FOR THEM?
        5) better means for law enforcement to share data and go after the bad guys – HERE WE GET INTO THE REALM OF WISHFUL THINKING, OR A DESIRE FOR SOME KIND OF INVASIVE POLICE STATE. MUCH OF THE DATA ON CRIMINALS AND CRIMES ARE ALREADY COMPUTERIZED, SHARING IT IS A MATTER OF THE INDIVIDUAL STATES LAW ENFORCEMENT SETTING UP A NATIONAL SHARED DATABASE. WHILE THIS MIGHT HELP THEM KNOW THAT THE PERSON THEY ARE QUESTIONING HAS A PRIOR RECORD, IT DOES NOTHING TO PREVENT FUTURE CRIMES. AS FOR GOING AFTER THE BAD GUYS, WHAT BETTER MEANS ARE YOU ENVISIONING? DO YOU THINK THAT LAW ENFORCEMENT SHOULD HAVE SOME SUPER POWERS OF INVASIVE PREEMPTIVE ENFORCEMENT RIGHTS? SHOULD THERE BE NO LIMITS ON THE AUTHORITY GIVEN TO LAW ENFORCEMENT WHEN THEY ARE HUNTING A CRIMINAL?
        6) stop golrifying criminal acts and the animals to perpetrate them – HERE IS A, HUMAN NATURE, PROBLEM. TECHNICALLY IT IS THE MEDIA THAT GLORIFIES THE CRIMINAL ACTS WITH THEIR MASSIVE COVERAGE OF THE GORY DETAILS. BUT IT IS HUMAN NATURE TO WANT TO KNOW THESE THINGS, SO THEY ARE JUST GIVING US WHAT SELLS. IF YOU WANT AN HONEST SOLUTION TO THIS YOU NEED TO RE-THINK YOUR REASONING. IT IS NOT WHAT THEY SHOW AND TELL US THAT IS THE PROBLEM, IT IS WHAT THEY DONT TELL US COMBINED WITH THEIR MISINFORMED CLAIMS OF THE CAUSE OF THE TRAGEDY THAT NEEDS TO BE ADDRESSED. THEY NEED TO STOP SENSATIONALIZING (NOT GLORIFYING) THE TRAGEDY. THEY NEED TO STOP USING EMOTIONAL TRIGGER WORDS LIKE THEY DID WITH THE CHILDREN. THEY MADE IT SOUND MORE TRAGIC BECAUSE THESE LITTLE KIDS WERE KILLED BY AN ASSAULT WEAPON. HOW THEY WERE KILLED DOES NOT CHANGE THE SEVERITY OF THE SITUATION. WHY THEY WERE KILLED IS WHAT NEEDED TO BE ADDRESSED. WHY DID THIS PARTICULAR PERSON DECIDE TO DO WHAT HE DID WHERE HE DID IT.
        7) Limits on the amount of ammo you can purchase – YOU JUST FELL INTO THE BLACK HOLE OF REASONING ON THIS ONE. IT WILL TAKE LOTS OF TYPING TO COVER EVEN PART OF THE PROBLEMS WITH THIS ONE BUT I WILL TRY. WHAT LIMIT TO THE AMOUNT OF AMMO PURCHASED DO YOU PROPOSE? IS IT 100 ROUNDS A YEAR? 20 ROUNDS A MONTH? IS IT CUMULATIVE? DO I HAVE TO PROVE I ALREADY USED THE AMMO I PURCHASED TO GET MORE? IS IT PER GUN OWNED? DOES AMMO I RE-LOAD GET DEDUCTED FROM THE AMOUNT I CAN PURCHASE? DO WE CREATE A NATIONAL REGISTRY FOR AMMO PURCHASES? CAN I SHARE MY AMMO WITH MY FRIENDS? DO I HAVE TO REPORT THE TRANSFER OF AMMO WHEN I GIVE / SELL TO MY FRIENDS OR FAMILY?
        8) Reinstitute the assault weapons ban and limit magazine size to 10 – THERE ARE NO ASSAULT WEAPONS RUNNING AROUND THIS COUNTRY IN THE HANDS OF LAW ABIDING CITIZENS. A TRUE ASSAULT WEAPON HAS AUTO FIRE CAPABILITY AND IS ALREADY STRICTLY REGULATED. THE (SO CALLED ASSAULT WEAPONS) BAN HAD NO DOCUMENTED AFFECT ON GUN VIOLENCE IN THIS NATION. THE CAPACITY OF MAGAZINES HAS NO DEMONSTRABLE EFFECT ON THE ABILITY TO MASS MURDER. 10 – 10 ROUND MAGAZINES GIVE THE ABILITY TO KILL 100 PEOPLE, CHANGING THE MAGAZINES (WHICH ARE PRE-LOADED) TAKES 1 TO 2 SECONDS WHICH DOES NOT SLOW DOWN THE RATE OF FIRE SUFFICIENTLY TO MAKE A DIFFERENCE. 10 ROUNDS IS AN ARBITRARY NUMBER, WHY NOT 15 OR 7 OR 5?

        The non-issue of “flash mobs”? How about overall crime? – WHAT IS YOUR POINT HERE, FLASH MOBS ARE A PART OF OVERALL CRIME.

        1) Get rid of all trade regs that are bad for US workers. – YES, GET RID OF ALL FOREIGN TRADE REGULATIONS THAT ARE BAD FOR US WORKERS. ELIMINATE ALL THE NAFTA AND OTHER AGREEMENTS THAT GIVE OUR JOBS AWAY TO THIRD WORLD COUNTRIES AND CHINA. PUT IMPORT TARIFFS ON GOODS SENT HERE FROM OTHER COUNTRIES. KILLS TWO BIRDS WITH ONE STONE, MORE JOBS AND MORE REVENUE TO RUN THE GOVERNMENT.
        2) Strengthen Unions to help get workers more money so one parent can afford to be home with the kids – WRONG!!!! STRENGTHENING THE UNION THUGS AND GIVING THEM MORE POWER TO DESTROY OUR ECONOMY IS BAD. UNIONS DESTROY THE POSSIBILITY OF ANY HOPE FOR FREE MARKET CAPITALISM. IT IS NOT THE EARNING POWER OF THE CITIZENS THAT IS THE PROBLEM, IT IS THE PURCHASING POWER OF THE DOLLAR, INFLATION HAS CAUSED THE PROBLEM WITH A LIVING WAGE. UNIONS CANNOT SOLVE, AND HAVE ACTUALLY BEEN PART OF THE CAUSE OF INFLATION.
        3) Reform education to have higher standards and hold teachers, parents, kids accountable for bad performance and performance is measure by how well we compete in the global economy – YES, WE NEED TO REFORM THE EDUCATION SYSTEM, GET RID OF ALL THE UNION TEACHERS THAT DONT TEACH. GET RID OF ALL THE GOVERNMENT INTERFERENCE IN OUR EDUCATION. ELIMINATE THE AFFIRMATIVE ACTION ASPECTS THAT GIVE COLLEGE POSITIONS TO UNQUALIFIED STUDENTS BASED ON MINORITY STATUS. ELIMINATE THE MONEY WASTED BY THE CURRENT ADMINISTRATION WHICH IS DESIGNATED FOR BLACKS ONLY. GET RID OF THE NO CHILD LEFT BEHIND BS. IF A CHILD CANT PERFORM AT A SATISFACTORY GRADE 4 LEVEL THEY SHOULD NOT ADVANCE TO GRADE 5. MAKE THE STANDARDS FOR ADVANCING GRADES REASONABLE AS COMPARED TO REAL LIFE NEED FOR KNOWLEDGE.
        4) reform tax rates to a 22% flat tax that goes down once you get below making 50K a year for families, no exceptions. – HERE YOU MUST NOT UNDERSTAND WHY A GRADUATED TAX SYSTEM IS A GOOD SYSTEM. 22% OF 50k IS 11k TAXES. IT IS ALSO ALMOST 4 MONTHS OF EARNINGS. WHILE THIS MIGHT BE MARGINALLY AFFORDABLE TO SOMEONE MAKING 50K, THINK HOW MUCH MORE AFFORDABLE IT IS FOR SOMEONE MAKING 10M THEY PAY ONLY 2.2M AND STILL HAVE 7.8M TO LIVE ON. THIS PUTS A HIGHER TAX BURDEN ON THE LOWER INCOME PERSON. AND YOU USE THE PHRASE FOR FAMILIES, WHAT ABOUT SINGLE PEOPLE, WHAT PERCENTAGE DO THEY PAY? IF A FAMILY OF 5 PAYS 22% THEN EACH MEMBER PAYS 4.4%, DO WE CHARGE A SINGLE PERSON MAKING 50K 4.4% TAXES? IF NOT THEN HIS/HER TAX BURDEN IS HIGHER. IF YOU ARE FAIR AND ONLY CHARGE SINGLE PEOPLE 4.4% THEN PEOPLE WILL STAY SINGLE TO SAVE ON TAXES, YOU HAVE DESTROYED THE INSTITUTION OF MARRIAGE AND LOST REVENUE AT THE SAME TIME.
        5) Cut defense spending down to 300B a year, close all foriegn bases and wars and bring the troops home. End corp welfare for the defense, oil, and big agro industries – CAN YOU SAY ECONOMIC DISASTER? HERE YOU ADVOCATE POLICIES THAT WOULD NOT ONLY HAVE EXTREME ECONOMIC CONSEQUENCES HERE BUT WORLD WIDE. DEFENSE SPENDING IS DIRECTLY RELATED TO JOBS AND INCOME FOR MILLIONS OF AMERICANS. SHUTTING DOWN MASSIVE AMOUNTS OF DEFENSE SPENDING WOULD CAUSE THE LOSS OF HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF JOBS. THIS COULD ONLY BE DONE OVER AN EXTENDED PERIOD OF TIME, MAYBE DECADES. CLOSING FOREIGN BASES IS A DOUBLE WHAMMY. NOT ONLY DO YOU HAVE THE PROBLEM OF WHAT TO DO WITH THE PERSONNEL RETURNING BUT THERE IS ALSO THE LOSS OF REVENUE TO THE HOST COUNTRY.
        6) Give people incentives to teach in poor areas of the country by paying for their 4 year degree in education if they do a 4 year contract. – ARE YOU ONLY SPEAKING ABOUT PEOPLE WHO PURSUE A TEACHING DEGREE OR WOULD ANY OTHER TECHNICAL OR HANDS ON SKILLS QUALIFY AS TEACHING IN POOR AREAS? A FARMERS SKILLS WOULD BE VALUABLE TO TEACH PEOPLE IN POOR AREAS.
        7) Give huge discounts to young people for college after they complete a 2 year mandatory service to the country (military, peace corp, habitat for humanity, helping build our infrastructure) – PLEASE DEFINE WHAT A HUGE DISCOUNT IS. SOME OF YOUR EXAMPLES ARE PAID JOBS BUT HABITAT FOR HUMANITY IS PURELY VOLUNTEER, NON PAID SO HOW WOULD THESE YOUNG PEOPLE SURVIVE? YOU ARE POSTPONING THEIR ENTRY INTO THEIR TRAINED PROFESSION, WHICH CAN BE VERY DETRIMENTAL TO VIABILITY, HOW WILL YOU ENSURE THEIR ENTRY INTO THEIR TRAINED PROFESSION FOLLOWING THEIR MANDATORY SERVICE?

        Its a start… Unlike conservative crybabies and whiners… I actually offer solutions” – WHILE I HAVE SHOWN MOSTLY QUESTIONS HERE, I HOPE IT ILLUSTRATED THAT YOUR SOLUTIONS ARE TOO GENERAL IN SCOPE TO BE EFFECTIVE. SOME OF MY QUESTIONS ARE ALSO HINTS AT POSSIBLE SOLUTIONS THAT YOU HAVE MISSED. DEPENDING ON YOUR PERSPECTIVE, YOUR STATEMENTS ON GUN VIOLENCE COULD BE VIEWED AS CRYING AND WHINING ALSO. THERE ARE RADICALS ON BOTH SIDES OF THE GUN ISSUE, THERE ARE WHINERS AND CRYBABIES ON BOTH. YOU SEEM TO BE ONE OF THE ANTI-GUN WHINERS BECAUSE YOUR SOLUTIONS ARE EXTREME AND RADICAL AND DONT ADDRESS THE CENTRAL ISSUE THAT NEEDS TO BE ADDRESSED. IT IS THE MENTAL STATE OF THE CRIMINALS THAT COMMIT GUN VIOLENCE, NOT THE GUNS THEMSELVES THAT NEEDS ADDRESSING.

        I apologize to all readers for my use of all caps in my response, it was just an attempt to separate his comments from mine.

        • BR549

          Frank,
          Thanks for taking the time. These passive-aggressive whiners can wear you down from time to time. It was my turn in the barrel, I guess, and, after a while, we have to remind ourselves why they even bother to hang out here. I think they are severely challenged by a faulty paradigm, but up to this point, they haven’t been able to understand what drove them here.

          It is, after all, all about the truth, and even if someone comes in from the “other side”, we need to keep the light on for them, so to speak, just like Motel 6.

          Dave sounds like an intelligent guy. I think he’ll figure it out eventually, but Eddie and Flashy will need some more time. Some folks, like my family, have been really slow, but they are coming around. One friend who was a former dyed in the wool Obama supporter, has over the last couple of months started to show concern over NDAA. Where he had, a few years ago, said that when the troops come down the street, he would just go with them, NOW he’s inquiring about buying a few guns.

          Even within our own ranks, there are some who have no idea of the history around the formation of our documents; they’re just following their gut in knowing something is wrong, but when people start trashing Ron Paul, even though his message was on par with Perot and Gary Johnson, they still don’t get what the issues are beside the guns. And it isn’t about the guns; it never was; it was always about corruption and tyranny. Unfortunately, they can only see the smaller issues, like this charade at Sandy Hook. And wouldn’t you know, the network aired “The Truman Show” yesterday; how appropriate was that?

          As long as they continue to turn a blind eye to the truth, we just have to cast their boat adrift with them in it. When they row back, we can take them in.

      • Don 2

        Dave & Eddie,

        I didn’t say anyone advocated a “Gun Free Zone” I said, “Why don’t you put a big sign in your front yard stating, “This is a gun free residence” I figure anybody as big and bad as Dave is in his own mind, who says he frequents S.E. Washington, D.C., S. Chicago, South L.A., and the Bronx, should be big and bad enough to announce to the world that he doesn’t have or need a gun, unless he is all talk.

      • Dave67

        Don,

        I don’t go around saying or acting like I am a badazz. I just know how to mind my own business while being aware of whats around me and never showing that I am scared to be at a particular place…

        In other words, I act normal.

      • 45caliber

        Frank:

        The problem with strengthening the unions for people like Dave is that they ASSUME that the companies they intend to threaten make billions in profits that they fail to share with the workers. Just the like the Demos insist that the rich are stealing from the poor. Companies are forced to keep their prices as low as possible to compete with others selling the same thing. If their labor costs go up (by a union strike meant to give the workers enough money to let their wives stay home) then the prices go up. If the prices go up, then other prices also go up (the items that use the product the company makes.) It rolls around to the union man getting the wage increase in the first place. He pays more for what he buys which means his money goes no further than it did before and his wife still has to work to make ends meet.

        But the Demos, union officials, and libs keep saying, “Let them take it out of their profits!” Except the ones who say this know that it can’t be done that way … and they don’t care at all as long as they can also squeeze that worker for more money and votes.

      • eddie47d

        Don 2: Do you have a big sign in your yard announcing how many weapons you have in your house so when you are away those who want to steal those weapons will have a heads up before they break in. That’s about as ridiculous as your comment!

      • Vicki

        Dave67 says:
        “Where do I advoate a “gun free” zone? Its either one extreme or another for conservatives…”

        Where do you NOT advocate gun free zones?

        Dave67: “Is it in your genes not to compromise or deal in rational moderation?”

        Rational moderation? You constantly advocate infringing on God given rights and dare to claim Rational? Let’s have government moderate your right to speak and see how that works for you. (And that will come after they get all the guns)

      • Don 2

        Dave 67,

        You stated that you mind your own business while being aware what’s around you and never show that you are scared to be in a particular place.

        That’s the difference between us. I don’t feel scared.

      • Don 2

        eddie47d,

        I don’t need a sign stating I have guns. Everyone around here knows I have guns. All of my neighbors also have guns. Anyone want to steal them? Come and take them! Good luck with that by the way.

    • BR549

      Dave wrote: “Where does this woman live? What a load of rubbish.”

      You accuse Bob of “Fear” peddling, yet offer nothing concrete as a solution. Let’s face it, Dave, why don’t you [comment has been edited]

      BTW, did you happen to vote for Hope and Change a second time?

      • Dave67

        BR549,

        The answer to the problem? Which one?

        Gun violence?

        1) background checks and a national database for ALL gun purchases
        2) Extensive training on the use and storage of all weapons
        3) 60 day waiting period
        4) Psychological evaluations each year for every gun owner and anyone wanting a gun
        5) better means for law enforcement to share data and go after the bad guys
        6) stop golrifying criminal acts and the animals to perpetrate them
        7) Limits on the amount of ammo you can purchase
        8) Reinstitute the assault weapons ban and limit magazine size to 10

        The non-issue of “flash mobs”? How about overall crime?

        1) Get rid of all trade regs that are bad for US workers.
        2) Strengthen Unions to help get workers more money so one parent can afford to be home with the kids
        3) Reform education to have higher standards and hold teachers, parents, kids accountable for bad performance and performance is measure by how well we compete in the global economy
        4) reform tax rates to a 22% flat tax that goes down once you get below making 50K a year for families, no exceptions.
        5) Cut defense spending down to 300B a year, close all foriegn bases and wars and bring the troops home. End corp welfare for the defense, oil, and big agro industries
        6) Give people incentives to teach in poor areas of the country by paying for their 4 year degree in education if they do a 4 year contract.
        7) Give huge discounts to young people for college after they complete a 2 year mandatory service to the country (military, peace corp, habitat for humanity, helping build our infrastructure)

        Its a start… Unlike conservative crybabies and whiners… I actually offer solutions.

        • BR549

          Dude, what planet are you from? Those concerning guns aren’t solutions; they’re your preferences based on the pablum you’ve been spoon-fed by the media. First off, under your “Gun Violence” section, you could just as easily be talking about driving on the highway or even parenting. But jumping on the “parenting” thread, yeah, why don’t we:

          1. subject everyone to some enormous globalist approved database to see if people will even be allowed to fornicate.
          2. extensive training on personal responsibility, conflict negotiation, and child rearing
          3. 60 day waiting period every time a couple wishes to have relations, just to see if partners will get so frustrated with each other that they bug out to some metrosexual yuppie bar to horse around off the radar.
          4. psychological evaluations each year for every person wishing to do the horizontal mambo with their spouse and anyone questioning the use of a condom
          5. better means for law enforcement to peer into your daily life to make sure that scofflaws (and EVERYONE is a scofflaw, they just haven’t been caught yet) are apprehended in their homes before going out to endanger the public.
          7. Limits on the number of times one can have intercourse

          As far as your second group of NON-gun-related items, you do have some good points, but those are far from being liberal or progressive suggestions that haven’t already been suggested by the Right or Center. Most of those are common sense.

          What you don’t get into is what might be motivating all this sudden legislation all at once. There is far more going on here than meets the eye. Think of things from the standpoint of “The Truman Show”.

      • Dave67

        Oh and one other thing for overall crime.

        Legalize all drugs… If you are stupid enough to not understand that drugs are bad, then you will do them anyways… Murder in this country will come down drastically, we won’t be spending 50K-70K a year on each person incarcerated for drug offenses only to become better criminals in prison and our court system will unclog.

        You may now contine with Bob Livingston’s program of fear, exaggeration and propaganda.

      • Dave67

        To answer your final question about who I voted for in the 2012 election? I voted against Tricky Mitt Romney. I normally vote for a liberal 3rd party candidate but to let that tax evading, outsourcer corporatist into the WH would be a complete disaster. Luckily the rest of the country agreed.

      • Don 2

        Dave 67,

        That’s what you call gun solutions? Ha-ha-ha-ha-ha…..
        You forgot one. All liberals should be prohibited from owning any type of firearm until after they have been raped or mugged at least twice.

        • BR549

          Don wrote: “All liberals should be prohibited from owning any type of firearm until after they have been raped or mugged at least twice.”

          Actually, I think the reason libtards are so fearful of anyone having guns is because they don’t trust themselves with one. Therefore, NO ONE should have one. But what the continue to ignore is that the government is all but ignoring the 9th and 10th Amendments in its pursuit of more power. The libtards only response is …… What’s this 9th and 10th business?

          Meanwhile, the globalists are realizing that their Marxist derived educational plan that was developed almost a century ago, has been very successful in dumbing down the population to the point where these people can’t believe that this could ever possibly be taking place around them, because if it was, they would have known about it.

          Anyone get the number of that turnip truck that just went by?

      • eddie47d

        Don 2; Arming any store owner with a high magazine weapon where there is a multitude of customers is begging for trouble. That only proves a few gun totting Conservatives belong in the insane asylum and need to have those “toys” taken away from them. Then the head nurse can rape you at least twice a week! LOL!

      • Dave67

        Ok Don,

        Go down the list one by one and tell me your issue with each. Then you give you your real world solutions to how we can reduce the level of gun violence in America.

        Unfortunately, we either get slogans like from Vicki or dismissals.

        Can you address my solutions point by point or give your own real solutions?

      • Bill

        Eddie,
        Just ask the Korean business owners in the LA riots how having rifles with large magizines worked for them

      • 45caliber

        Dave:

        You want a refute on your list?

        1) background checks and a national database are used extensively by every country in the world who want to confiscate all weapons from their citizens because they want to make slaves of them. Hitler was only one of many. I don’t want to risk that here because anyone who wants to take the guns away also wants to take the power to run things their way – and knows the majority of the people would object to how they do it. Take China today – if you anger a politician there, your life expectancy goes down to mere days.

        2) Extensive training? I have no problem with people being trained. (However the TV seems to be training a lot of young criminals.) But WHO is to do that training? Not the government who wants to get rid of all guns! The Handgun Control Institute insists no one should be trained because they WANT people to have accidents, etc. And there is no need for special storage requirements if the people are trained. And that includes toddlers. I started training my kids at about 18 months to leave them alone – and why.

        3) 60 day waiting period? Ask those people in LA who were involved in the Rodney King riots if they were happy with their 2 week period! When you need protection, you need it NOW! Criminals do not go rushing in to buy a gun because they suddenly decided to go rob someone.

        4) Psychological evaluations might be of use … once the psychologists finally can do that successfully. So far it isn’t possible. Psychology is still an art – not a science. Too much of the beliefs and impressions of the psychologist gets involved with such evaluations. You are evaluating the psychologist more than you are the patient at the moment.

        5) Better means for sharing info. I definately agree with this … but the government won’t. After all, if you can tap onto my computer to see who I list as a danger then I’m cut out of the picture and can’t exercise my “power”. Why do you think NO government agency will use standard off-the-wall computer programs that work much better than what they write themselves?

        6) Stop glorfying criminal acts. I definately agree with you again … but you are talking to the wrong people. You need to convince the MSM and Hollywood – and that would take away what they consider to be their main stories which reduces the money they make on them. Many mass murderers want to die famous (in their own minds) and the MSM is happy to make them famous because more people will pay to see those stories.

        7) Limits on the amount of ammo. Why? If you have no intention of committing a crime in the first place (and very few people do plan a crime) then it is perfectly safe to have as much as you wish.

        8) Reinstitute an assault rifle ban … Actually it is ALREADY against the law unless you buy an expensive and intrusive license. Actually, I don’t want an automatic weapon anyway (and I’ve used them.) They use too much ammo and all but the first bullet is wasted anyway. But you aren’t talking about real assault rifles, are you? One that just happens to look like one doesn’t make it so. And a nasty looking gun can intimidate attackers anyway. Many of the “assault” rifles you want to ban are perfect for hunting because they are designed to be excellent pieces of equipment.

        Now I have a couple of points:

        9) If you are in a dangerous situation you NEED a weapon that can fire rapidly and has a large capacity magazine because you won’t be able to actually aim when someone is shooting at you. You need to shoot fast and have lots of bullets since you will miss a lot. It is only on the movies that someone will always kill the bad guy on the first shot. I’ve seen people in such positions shoot straight up and can’t understand why they missed the enemy.

        10) If you REALLY want to get rid of violent crime, make it manditory that all adults own and carry at all times. It has worked where it has been tried. One town does it now. And despite Hollywood myths, the Old West didn’t have that many shootouts because the people were armed. Those who carried the guns knew what they would do and didn’t want to risk dying.

      • Dave67

        45 Caliber,

        1) Hitler loosened gun restrictions in 1938. I suggest you read what was passed.

        2) I have no problem with the NRA doing the training if they can get rid of the extremists like LaPierre handling the training that is agreed to by law enriocement and the NRA.

        45 Caliber, does having a weapon with no training on it and having no experience dealing with crime situations make for you being safer or give you a quicker route to the pine box?

        You are far more likely to be the victim of your gun by someone you know or commit suicde than defending yourself in a crime situation. That is the reality.

        The problem of gun violence in this country is complex and we need to deal with many more issues than just the gun itself.

      • Dave67

        45 caliber,

        AZ has some of the most lax gun laws in the country. they have less population than “Socialist MA” and a more spread out population, yet AZ has over 100 more gun murders per year, and please do not blame it on illegal immigration, I live in the state and that fallacy is bunk.

        Just having everyone armed is not the solution. Its the attitude of the culture and the ability to deal with mental illness, the economy and the ability for law enforcement to do their jobs.

      • Don 2

        eddie47d,

        What you fail to realize, is how many people you pass each and every day, who unbeknownst to you, are carrying a concealed weapon. And surprise, surprise, they didn’t shoot you.

      • 45caliber

        Dave:

        Hitler LOOSENED gun restrictions? He may have, which I doubt, but he also required registration of all guns. And guess what? They were all confiscated by his government before he took over and proved he was certifiably insane. That’s what we feel our own politicians are. And we don’t want to give them the chance to do the same thing here.

        And I agree that you are (possibly) likely to be a victim of your own gun in the hands of a family member. But you should KNOW your family members. If you wish to take the chance then that is up to you. It should NEVER be someone else’s decision to deprive you of that choice by “taking care of you.” I take care of myself and I have no interest of ANYONE including my wife taking care of me. So your argument is meaningless to me on this.

        I live in TX. I’m familiar with people carrying guns. No one is interested in pulling out a gun and blazing away for fear the other person might have one too. If you KNOW they have one, then you are even more afraid of starting a fuss. And I suspect many of the deaths in AZ is certainly due to drug traffic and illegals. Much of it here is. In fact, a cop in Houston told me that over 80% of all shootings there is due to drugs. If you think more guns cause more trouble, review the city that requires everyone to carry. Their total crime in about 30 years consists of things like running a stop sign. The towns that made it illegal to own, such as NYC, has far more crime for some reason.

      • Don 2

        Dave 67,

        Here is what I have a problem with:

        1. 60 day waiting period. Why, with an instant background check, would you want to force someone to wait 60 days? Is that what you would tell the woman who’s ex-boyfriend says he is going to kill her, or the woman who is being stalked? Wait 60 days lady, if you’re not dead by then, you can pick up your gun.

        2. Psychological evaluations each year. Why? This would be very expensive. Are you going to pay for this? Do you think poorer Americans have the money to do this, and that people can afford to take a day off from work each year for this? Did you get a psychological exam last year? How about the year before? Are you getting one this year. You never know, you might have gone whacko last month, and you might decide to stab someone.

        3. Limits on ammo. Why? I buy ammo 300 to 800 rounds at a time because it is much cheaper in larger quantities. I may go through a 150 rounds in the backyard on my gun range. How many rounds are you going to let me buy at one time? 10 rounds, 25 rounds, 50 rounds.

        4. Reinstitute the proven to have failed assault weapons ban. Why? It didn’t do a thing the last time. Columbine occurred right in the middle of the ban. By the way, what is an assault weapon? What is a military assault weapon? Do you even know?

        And for what would I do? Well, it is a proven fact that an armed society is a polite society. In fact, in a municipality in Florida, when free firearms training was offered to women, the interest was so big that they had to offer many additional classes. This was published in the local paper. Do you know what the result was? A huge drop in assaults and rapes on women, because the bads guys can read too, and they knew that there are now a lot of armed women, trained to use a firearm.

        How about Kennesaw, Georgia. A 1982 town ordinance requires the head of household to own a gun and ammunition. Result: A drop in crime. Haven’t heard anything bad about Kennesaw, have you?

      • Don 2

        Dave 67,

        One more point. A national database of all gun purchases is a definite no-no. That’s what every government does before they confiscate them.

      • Don 2

        Dave 67,

        Hitler banned the Jews from gun ownership in 1938. We know how that went. I suggest that you go to the “Jews For The Preservation of Firearms Ownership” website to get enlightened.

      • Dave67

        45 Caliber,

        Let me erase the doubt for you about Hitler.

        http://propagandaprofessor.net/2011/09/26/the-myth-of-hitlers-gun-ban/

        Whenever a politician, or anyone else, starts talking about regulating guns, it’s a safe bet that someone will bring up how Hitler supposedly outlawed guns in Germany, which supposedly enabled him to do all the mischief he did. As we’ve noted before, Adolf is a staple reference among propagandists. It’s become an automatic response to compare anyone you don’t like to Der Fuhrer, on the grounds that since he was evil incarnate, everything he ever said or did must also be evil. People have even been known to suggest that since he was a vegetarian, vegetarians are evil. It’s not surprising, then, that you often see this quote pop up:

        “This year will go down in history! For the first time, a civilized nation has full gun registration! Our streets will be safer, our police more efficient, and the world will follow our lead into the future!” –Adolf Hitler, 1935

        Trouble is, Hitler never made such a speech in 1935. Nor is there any record that he ever spoke these particular words at all. This little “speech” was obviously written for him, many years after his death, by someone who wanted you to believe that gun registration is Hitler-evil.

        What he did say, seven years later, was this: “The most foolish mistake we could possibly make would be to permit the conquered Eastern peoples to have arms. History teaches that all conquerors who have allowed their subject races to carry arms have prepared their own downfall by doing so.” So it’s fair to conclude that he believed “gun control” had its uses. But that’s quite a different thing from claiming that “gun control” was instrumental in the NAZI rise to power.

        And the truth is that no gun law was passed in Germany in 1935. There was no need for one, since a gun registration program was already in effect in Germany; it was enacted in 1928, five years before Hitler’s ascendancy. But that law did not “outlaw” guns, it just restricted their possession to individuals who were considered law-abiding citizens, and who had a reason to own one. And there’s no reason to consider that law particularly significant, either; the NAZIs didn’t seize control of their own country with gunpowder. They used a much more potent weapon: propaganda.

        Under their reign, Jews were prohibited from owning guns, just as they were prohibited from doing many things. And it has become an article of faith among the gun culture that had they been armed, the Holocaust would not have happened (that is, among those members of the gun culture who know that the Holocaust really did happen). But the concept of a handful of citizens armed with hunting rifles and Saturday night specials fending off an army is delusional hubris peculiar to gun addicts. On American soil, its most glorious day in the sun has been perhaps Waco. And we all know how well that turned out.

        The gun culture is right about one thing, however. Hitler really did enact a new gun law. But it was in 1938, not 1935 – well after the NAZIs already had the country in its iron grip. Furthermore, the new law in many ways LOOSENED gun restrictions. For example, it greatly expanded the numbers who were exempt, it lowered the legal age of possession from 20 to 18, and it completely lifted restriction on all guns except handguns, as well as on ammunition.

        Given all of this, it’s pretty hard to make a case that “gun control” played a significant role in NAZI conquest. In fact, one might well say that when gun addicts brandish Hitler as a weapon, they are unwittingly arguing against their own cause.

        .
        Here is another link

        http://www.opposingviews.com/i/society/guns/did-hitler-really-support-gun-control-nra-myth-debunked

      • Dave67

        Jon and 45Caliber,

        See its amazing what happens when you put out ideas to fix a problem or problems. They get discussed and rolled around and then the ideas can get refined into items that can work and the different sides can live with.

        Amazing how all that works.

        Dave

      • Vicki

        Dave67 says:
        “1) background checks and a national database for ALL gun purchases”

        I have a simpler and actually workable solution.

        Check the background. Is it a prison (county jail etc)?

        If yes then don’t sell a gun to the inmate.
        If no then sell the gun to a free citizen.

        KEEP Criminals IN JAIL. It’s that easy.

        Since criminals don’t buy guns from FFA they will never be checked. This removes any possible efficiency of a lawful citizen background database.
        -
        -
        -

        - Dave67: “2) Extensive training on the use and storage of all weapons”

        I thought you were opposed to the NRA?

        - Dave67: “3) 60 day waiting period”

        For what? Should we have a 60 day waiting period for your posts?

        - Dave67: “4) Psychological evaluations each year for every gun owner and anyone wanting a gun.”

        How about Psychological evaluations each year for every journalist? The pen is mightier than the sword.

        - Dave67: “5) better means for law enforcement to share data and go after the bad guys”

        Or arm the (intended) victims. Save money on the chase.

        - Dave67: “6) stop golrifying criminal acts and the animals to perpetrate them”

        Who’s doing that? Oh right. The liberal mass media. Hmmmm….. Maybe that 60 day wait and Psychological evaluations before exercising your (and their) 1st amendment rights isn’t such a bad idea.

        - Dave67: “7) Limits on the amount of ammo you can purchase”

        Limit the number of characters you can type.

        - Dave67: “8) Reinstitute the assault weapons ban and limit magazine size to 10″

        Why stop at 10. Lets do single shot. Then we can follow Jeremy’s advice and just carry 30 of them.

        - Dave67: “Unlike conservative crybabies and whiners… I actually offer solutions.”

        We don’t whine. We do offer solutions. You just don’t like them.

        I offered a really inexpensive one above for background checks. I bet you won’t like it.

      • Dave67

        Dave67 says:
        “1) background checks and a national database for ALL gun purchases”

        I have a simpler and actually workable solution.

        Check the background. Is it a prison (county jail etc)?

        If yes then don’t sell a gun to the inmate.
        If no then sell the gun to a free citizen.
        ****interesting, we already have more people in prison than any other country in the industrialized world and look what that has done to the crime rate… NO CRIME all all , So mental evaluations, no waiting periods for people buying a gun out of anger… I see a few issues there.*****
        KEEP Criminals IN JAIL. It’s that easy.

        Since criminals don’t buy guns from FFA they will never be checked. This removes any possible efficiency of a lawful citizen background database.
        -
        -
        -

        - Dave67: “2) Extensive training on the use and storage of all weapons”

        I thought you were opposed to the NRA?
        **** to the nutjobs and gun lobby stooges that are in there now but there is nothing wrong with the NRA as an organization that promotes gun training and safety and working with law enforcement*****

        - Dave67: “3) 60 day waiting period”

        For what? Should we have a 60 day waiting period for your posts?
        **** Sorry, I didn’t realize I needed to explain the different between a post and a gun who’s expressed purpose is to kill****

        - Dave67: “4) Psychological evaluations each year for every gun owner and anyone wanting a gun.”

        How about Psychological evaluations each year for every journalist? The pen is mightier than the sword.
        *** I suppose it can be but it wasn’t a pen that is responsible for 2.67 deaths for every 100000 people in this country. But I do have some killer ideas from time to time****

        - Dave67: “5) better means for law enforcement to share data and go after the bad guys”

        Or arm the (intended) victims. Save money on the chase.
        ****Yeah, nothing bad can happen from just arming everybody…. The issue is more than just guns themselves… 90% of it has nothing to do with guns… I have spoken about this but you constantly ignore that part****

        - Dave67: “6) stop golrifying criminal acts and the animals to perpetrate them”

        Who’s doing that? Oh right. The liberal mass media. Hmmmm….. Maybe that 60 day wait and Psychological evaluations before exercising your (and their) 1st amendment rights isn’t such a bad idea.
        **** no doubt the corp media is complicit in the problem but seeing as Switzerland, Israel and Canada all have the same media, the same video games we do… the problem goes a bit deeper. You don’t care to explore that… that is proven******

        - Dave67: “7) Limits on the amount of ammo you can purchase”

        Limit the number of characters you can type.
        *** limits on ammo seem to work for Israel… just borrowing their idea*****

        - Dave67: “8) Reinstitute the assault weapons ban and limit magazine size to 10″

        Why stop at 10. Lets do single shot. Then we can follow Jeremy’s advice and just carry 30 of them.
        *** 10 shots and having to reload may give someone a chance at escape if such a situation arose, I guess you would like to see the all dead****

        - Dave67: “Unlike conservative crybabies and whiners… I actually offer solutions.”

        We don’t whine. We do offer solutions. You just don’t like them.

        I offered a really inexpensive one above for background checks. I bet you won’t like it.
        ****That one for background checks is the first concrete effort you have made… Well done… There are multiple problems with it which I alluded to but it is nice to see you get past the bumbersticker****

      • Vicki

        Dave67 says:
        “Oh and one other thing for overall crime.

        Legalize all drugs…”

        This is one of the things that Dave and I actually agree on. And it WOULD cut down on overall crime.

        So in short. Treat us like Free and sovereign citizens and not government pets.

      • Vicki

        Dave67 writes:
        “****That one for background checks is the first concrete effort you have made… Well done… There are multiple problems with it which I alluded to but it is nice to see you get past the bumbersticker****”

        Well good. Lets implement that background check system and save money. Interesting that you like that bumpersticker but don’t like the ~300 Million bumper sticker.

        Oh and by legalizing drugs we can, as you know, free up prison space for real criminals and make that background check I suggested be even easier to implement.

    • Dave67

      Bob,

      I did as you asked… I googled “flash mob”, “statistics”, “Occurences” and the problem of flash mobs were so purvasive… The search came up

      0

      There is no source I found that spoke to anything around the numbers of the incidences.

      That is how much of a problem it is in America?

      What will your next fear piece be on? The dangers of squirrels? The problem of deer assaults on poor unsuspecting people? The skyrocketing rate of midget murder in Cleveland?

      I can’t wait.

      Love,

      Dave

      • http://www.boblivingstonletter.com/ Bob Livingston

        Dear Dave67,

        You write: ” did as you asked… I googled “flash mob”, “statistics”, “Occurences” and the problem of flash mobs were so purvasive… The search came up 0.” Oops. You caught me. There never have been any flash mobs and I made the whole thing up. http://violentflashmobs.com/

        And more logical fallacies from you? Your research skills are as weak as your debate skills.

        Best wishes,
        Bob

        P.S. I could give you a lot more examples, but I have other things to do and you have begun to bore me.

      • Dave67

        OMG Bob,

        You found an offical site that shows all the statistics alright…

        So… People of Chicago (highest occurance)!!! Beware!!! You live in a city of 2.7 Million people and you know how many violent Flash Mobs there were since 2002?

        23

        There were 5 incidences reported in 2012!!!! (of course a few were just a few people on 1 person robbery if you looked at the sources but still “FLASH MOB!!”) You need to be heavily armed with those damaging statistics Bob gave us.

        Boy Bob… Thanks for that load of crap.

        I am happy to continue to bore you with exposing your BS.

        All conservatives RUN and hide after reading and looking at the links to what Bob posted!!!!

      • 45caliber

        Dave:

        23 flash mobs in Chicago is FAR MORE than the number of mass killings, isn’t it?

      • Dave67

        Bob’s site… tells us that since 2002 in the USA and Canada there have been 221 occurances of flash mobs. (over 300 Million people)

        According to Bob’s source any attack by more than 4 people on a person, people or business is considered a “flash mob” (not true)

        Take just one of the links in Bob’s source

        http://www.wvec.com/my-city/nnews/5-charged-with-attacking-woman-in-Newport-News-161546135.html

        Trouble is, its not a flash mob…

        here is another one of his “flash mobs”

        http://www.heraldonline.com/2011/04/20/3002038/rock-hill-gay-beating-prompts.html

        Isn’t this an avg Sat night for conservatives?

        Bob like many here doesn’t bother to read his own sources. Another example of sloppy, sloppy journalism that is presented as propaganda for his political slant.

        It is you Bob that is weak. You might have to get a real job if you keep posting weak-azz crap like this.

        Hugs,

        Dave

      • Dave67

        45 Caliber,

        Mass killings only bring attention to the issue. The issue of irresponsible gun ownership, not letting law enforcement do their jobs properly, lack of quality mental HC in this country, economic inequality, lack of opportunity and the ease in which people reach for a gun to settle disputes have been with us for some time.

        Its all realated and needs to have an honest discussion to find solutions to these issues. But that is not what Bob does.

      • Jana

        Question- How many does it take to be a mob? Are YOU the one who decides?

        Question- Would you feel differently if you or a beloved family member were the victim of one of these flash mobs?

        Question- Why is it liberals who are supposed to be so caring about everyone are so callous to the everyday working man or woman?
        These people are trying to earn a living and provide for their families and these flash
        mobs come in and destroy their business, steal their money, and physically hurt them
        and their customers causing fear and confusion. Yet you appear to defend them.

        You mock the site that Bob gave you, since you seem to want to get technical, then how many actual strangers have broken into a school such as Sandy Hook (the perp did not go to school there or have any business in that school) and commit murder?

        Now we have students doing it, but not strangers.
        How many students and in the latter case a stranger, were mentally off?

      • Dave67

        Jana,

        I am defending violent flash mobs after exposing it as a NON-ISSUE from Bob’s own link?

        Really?

        Where do you get that? Did you happen to look into the details of these “flash mobs”

        Let me educate you… a “flash mob” is when people online through social media decide to meet at a certain location and dance to a song… That was its original intent. (its a group, how big varies)

        A violent flash mob is the same thing but to do mayhem… Obviously you did not bother to look at the details of Bob’s link and thats ok because neither did he.

        Most of those BS examples in the link are not “flash mobs”

        I suggest you look and see for yourself.

      • Jana

        Dave67,
        I went into a store with my grandmother. There were 3 men that came in ranging in age from 18 to 22. they quickly became a mob. This was a dollar store. They started running through the store. It just so happens I saw them coming and grabbed my grandma and pulled her out of the way or they would have knocked her down. People were yelling and we were scared. They did this to scare us. They were yelling and cursing and it lasted all of about 5 minutes and they were gone.
        I asked the clerk if she had called the police. She said no, this has happened a few times before and by the time the police get there they are gone. Needless to say we left, did not buy anything, and did not return. Within 5 months the store closed down, which was a shame because it had been a nice place before all this started happening.
        Of course there were only women in the store so these three men had no opposition.

      • Jana

        Dave67,
        What I experienced was no song and dance flash mob!
        Are you sure you actually went to Bob’s site? I did and don’t agree with you at all.
        Have you not seen the destruction shown on TV after one of these episodes from these flash mobs? They show them on the news all of the time.
        These kids are running and when they run into people they can hurt them. I had a teenage boy (at school) who was not supposed to be running turn the corner and plowed right into me. I was walking with a teacher when it happened and yes, I got hurt. Knocked me to the ground, hurt my left arm and shoulder and tore my fingernail off of one of my fingers on the right hand. Couldn’t have been pain all on the same side. He was 14.

        When these kids or teens or people make a decision to do these things, then we the people should have a right to defend ourselves. The police are generally no where around. These are bullies. They need to be stopped. They just grow up to become worse bullies.
        If it takes shooting some of them to make them understand that there will be consequences for their actions then so be it.

        • http://www.boblivingstonletter.com/ Bob Livingston

          Dear Jana,

          You write: “Are you sure you actually went to Bob’s site? I did and don’t agree with you at all.
          Have you not seen the destruction shown on TV after one of these episodes from these flash mobs? They show them on the news all of the time.” Dave67 knows he’s being dishonest and is dissembling in his response. He makes it appear as if he wants a rational discussion but engages in hyperbole, obfuscation, ad hominem and logical fallacy once he engages you. I address him from time to time for enjoyment.

          Best wishes,
          Bob

      • Dave67

        Jana,

        That was NOT a flash mob. Did you listen to what I told you? A Flash mob is where you use social media to meet at a particular place.

        The BS site Bob directed me to in many cases WERE NOT flash mobs…

        I don’t know how to make it any clearer. Look at the couple of examples I pulled from Bob’s link.

        One was a group of guys attacking a homosexual. How the heck to you “flash mob” that?

        Think…

        Sorry about that experience but that is the minority, not the majority of what people experience. I have lived it as well.

      • Dave67

        Sorry Bob,

        Its not me who doesn’t read the links to my own posts before I post them.

        I went to your link, yours not mine and at the site they have examples of “flash mobs”, the cities they happened in, the time, the numbers of people invloved and they they have links to the actual story. That is what I read, the actual story… you didn’t read these did you? No you didn’t.

        One of these “flash mobs” as this BS website states is the story of a group on men attacking a homosexual.

        How is that story a “flash mob”?

        It is clear you either do not know what a flash mob is or you are lying. Which is it?

      • Vicki

        Dave67 says to Jana:
        “That was NOT a flash mob. Did you listen to what I told you? A Flash mob is where you use social media to meet at a particular place.”

        The definition of the term “flash mob” is an evolving one and not settled. google ["flash mob" definition] without the [] for a LONG list. Even the definition of “social media” is evolving.

        Bob Livingstone added adjectives to describe which of the evolving definitions he intended.

        Now since Dave67 is all about statistics lets look at this one.

        ~300 MILLION AMERICANS DID NOT SHOOT ANYONE.
        (including many in the non-violent original design “flash mobs”)

        STOP PUNISHING THE INNOCENT.

        STOP IT
        STOP IT NOW

      • Jana

        Vicki,
        I still ask Dave 67 the same questions. However he is a slick and will not answer them. He thinks he is above us on here, so I will answer them for him.
        .
        Question- How many does it take to be a mob? ARE YOU THE ONE WHO DECIDES?
        Answer. No, Dave67 is NOT the one who decides anything. You have to actually know what you are talking about to be able to make that type of decision!

        Question- Would you feel differently if you or a beloved family member were the victim of one of these flash mobs?
        Answer:He would cry like a baby.

        Question- Why is it liberals who are supposed to be so caring about everyone are so callous to the everyday working man or woman?
        Answer: Because in reality they don’t really care. That is just a ploy._________

        .

        Dave67 said and I quote______________Did you listen to what I told you? A Flash mob is where you use social media to meet at a particular place.

        The BS site Bob directed me to in many cases WERE NOT flash mobs…

        I don’t know how to make it any clearer. Look at the couple of examples I pulled from Bob’s link._______________

        Did I listen to what you told me? WHAT YOU TOLD ME??? HOW ARROGANT!

        Big deal. He pulled a COUPLE of examples and now he is supposed to be the great ex PERT. He is an EX SPERT all right! Well he can spout off all he wants. That is the only reason he is on this site anyway obviously.

        You Dave67 with your many words who talks in circles and says nothing sounds like a politician. They like to hear themselves talk too.

        Question What makes you the one who decides whether or not this is a NON ISSUE?

        Answer: YOU DON’T GET TO DECIDE.!

      • Dave67

        Jana,

        I did not realize you were an anarchist?

        Flash mob means whatever you think it means regardless of what the rest of the world sees it as.

        that means… “blue” means “orange” and “car” means “elevator”

        I could see how you could have fun with it but it could be very confusing to those you are trying to communicate with which is part of your problem I see.

        Go through the links Bob presented line by line after you read this from dictionary.com

        flash mob

        noun
        1.
        a group of people mobilized by social media to meet in a public place for the purpose of doing an unusual or entertaining activity of short duration: The flash mob brought wide smiles to the faces of commuters waiting for their train.

        2.
        a group of teenagers who have contacted each other by cell phone and social media and gather in an area to trash it or to mug and beat passersby.

        You tell me if that is what occurred in Bob’s goofy little link?

      • Jana

        Dave67
        And I didn’t realize you were so dense. Flash mob has been used on the news now for a couple of years to denote the destructive groups going around doing the things that Bob has described in his article. But of course being the control freak that you are yours is the one and only one that could possibly ever be.
        By the way do you even know what the definition of an anarchist is? I didn’t think so.
        maybe you ought to look up narcissist. That would it seems define you.

        Anarchist:
        a person who seeks to overturn by violence all constituted forms and institutions of society and government, with no purpose of establishing any other system of order in the place of that destroyed.

      • Dave67

        Jana,

        Obviously you can lead a horse to water but you can’t make them drink

        8 guys beating up a homosexual in SC… Is that a “flash mob?”

        5 kids robbing another kid in Newport News. Is that a “flash mob”

        How so if you believe it to be so.

        Your ignorance to the propaganda that Bob is putting over on you is your undoing.

        As far as allowing myself to be challenged by those who are different than me… Its true… but when it comes to social conservatives, I have yet to hear a compelling arguement why two homosexuals should not be able to enjoy the same legal rights as henetersexuals as an example

        Do you have an arguement there?

        I am dying to hear it.

        • Frank Kahn

          Name what legal rights you are referring to and we can discuss the pros and cons.

      • Jana

        Dave 67,
        Yeah sure!
        You want to control this conversation so bad that now you try and change the topic. Sad.
        Your ignorance to the propaganda that YOU are trying to put overs your undoing. (Your words).

      • Dave67

        Avoidence does not a successful arguement make.

        Look up all 221 example of “violent flash mobs” and the original stories that they cite and you tell meif they are flash mobs as what they are defined?

        Or are you just happy to take Bob’s word for it like a good soldier?

        You don’t have to believe me. believe your own eyes if you trust them.

        What is sad is you don’t question Bob at all but you call me arrogant because I called you on your ignorance…That is what is truly sad.

      • Jana

        Dave67
        Your ignorance to the propaganda of your own lies is your undoing.
        Like I said, I did look it up and it shows YOU are WRONG. What part of English do you not understand. Is it that Liberal Socialists speak such double speak that they cannot fathom someone speaking the truth and meaning it?
        You are NOT the one who gets to decide what the meaning of flash mob IS. You are not the one who gets to control everything even though in your mind you are a control freak. Sorry. End of story. YOU ARE WRONG. Wow. Someone standing up to you is something you cannot stand. Tough. Get used to it.

      • Jana

        Bob Livingston,
        Thank you.

      • Dave67

        Jana,

        So eimply have no idea what you are talking about… From Bob’s link.

        ROCK HILL — In the wake of a brutal beating of a gay man caught on a Rock Hill store’s videotape, the sponsor of a hate crime bill that last year went nowhere in the General Assembly plans to re-introduce the bill next week and ask that it be discussed immediately by legislators.

        However, two key area Republican legislators said Tuesday that while the crime against Joshua Esskew at the Spot convenience store in Rock Hill is “horrific,” existing laws are enough to prosecute people who violently attack others – regardless of who the victim is or the motives of the attackers.

        And a spokesman for Gov. Nikki Haley said Tuesday the newly elected governor does not support state hate crime laws, either.

        Still, state Rep. John King, D-Rock Hill, the bill’s sponsor, said he will ask that the bill be taken directly to the House floor Tuesday when the Legislature reconvenes after a week off.

        Hate crimes should not be tolerated and deserve harsher punishments, he said.

        “We need an all-inclusive hate crime law in this state that protects all people regardless of race, religion, or sexual orientation,” King said Tuesday.

        Esskew was beaten April 9 by at least eight men at the store, after he was hit in the head by a bottle. The incident started, Esskew said, after one man called him a gay slur and curse words.

        “We have an obligation to make our communities safe for all people,” King said. “Hate against anyone is wrong, and the acting out of that hate in a crime needs punishment that is severe.”

        The York County Sheriff’s Office is investigating the beating as an assault by a mob inflicting serious injury – a new law that took effect last year and carries a maximum punishment of 25 years in prison.

        But South Carolina has no hate crime laws.

        The FBI is investigating the beating to see if what happened to Esskew was a hate crime or a violation of his civil rights under federal law. No arrests have been made.

        Since Esskew’s beating became a national story, gay rights groups have renewed a call for a South Carolina hate crime law.

        King’s bill would make it a felony with punishments of two to 15 years in prison for someone convicted of assaulting, threatening or intimidating a person based on race, religion or sexual preference.

        But the bill drew no co-sponsors last year and never got a hearing in the Statehouse.

        Similar attempts have been made by some black legislators the S.C. Senate over the years, but no action has ever been taken. South Carolina is one of just a few states that have no hate crime laws.

        State Rep. Todd Rutherford, D-Columbia, said he would help King try to pass the hate crime bill.

        The beating on videotape was “deplorable,” Rutherford said, “There is no doubt that was a mob that attacked him. This is everything that is wrong with our youth today.”

        Police have said they believe all the suspects are black, but Esskew, the white victim, has said that he believes he was the victim of a hate crime because he is gay – not for racial reasons.

        Both King and Rutherford, members of the Legislative Black Caucus, said the color of the suspects makes no difference – victims need to be protected if they are beaten because of their race, religion or sexual identity.

        “I don’t care if the people who did this are black, white, blue, or green,” Rutherford said. “If this man was attacked because he is gay, we have a problem in this state that can be addressed by a hate crime law that punishes this kind of crime.

        “The time has come to address hate in our state.”

        But state Rep. Greg Delleney, R-Chester, who represents part of York County and sits on the Judiciary Committee, said existing laws that prosecute violent crime – bolstered just last year – are sufficient without adding hate crimes to the list.

        What happened to Esskew is brutal and wrong, Delleney said, but existing laws can handle prosecuting those responsible.

        “We do not need special status for all people,” said Delleney, a defense lawyer by trade. “A crime is a crime. A murder is a murder. An assault is an assault.

        “We don’t need to make it more severe because of the status of someone.”

        Delleney described the call for a hate crime bill “political correctness run amok.”

        The crime against Esskew was “terrible,” said state Rep. Tommy Pope, R-York and the former prosecutor for York County. But federal hate crime laws, coupled with stiff penalties for assaults, are enough.

        Adding another part of a crime for prosecutors to prove also would make it more difficult to convict violent people such as the ones who beat up Esskew, Pope said.

        “Traditionally, we never had to prove motive, we just had to prove a crime was committed,” Pope said. “With a hate crime law, prosecutors would have to show why the crime was committed, too.”

        Haley does not support enacting any state hate crime laws, spokesman Rob Godfrey said in a statement late Tuesday.

        “All violent crimes are hate crimes, and it is hard to explain the difference to a widow or child who has lost a parent to a violent crime,” Godfrey said. “In our judicial system, the prosecutor, the jury and the judge can and should make determination as to a violent criminal’s motives and can charge and sentence them accordingly.”

        King and Rutherford expect opposition from conservatives and Republicans on passing a hate crime bill, but they vowed to push the issue.

        Gays need the protection of a tougher law that ensures they can live without fear, Rutherford said.

        “Hate has become a family value in South Carolina,” Rutherford said, “and that is just wrong.”

        The Esskew incident might have provided the opening for a larger debate on hate in the state, King said.

        “Sometimes, one incident opens the door to a bigger picture,” King said. “What we see when we look at the big picture in South Carolina is that wrong is wrong. Our streets need to be safe.

        “People should not be afraid to live in any way that harms no one else.”

        You tell me where the “flash mob” is. Nowhere. You are either ignorant or a willful liar. If you do not bother the educate yourself, nobody else can do it for you.

        Good day

        Dave

        • MikeW

          Dave,
          You seem like a reasonably intelligent guy. Why this obsessive fixation on the definition of a “flash mob” while ignoring the whole point behind the original reference?

          Many terms that are now ubiquitous in the English language have expanded beyond their original narrow usage. In this current debate, the word “mob” is pretty much self-explanatory. Likewise, the word “flash” refers simply to the spontaneous manner in which the mob gathers.

          Have you seen the current series of PSAs on TV in which some busybody chastizes teenagers for “misusing” the word “gay” when they refer to something they don’t like as “That’s so gay!”. It reminds me of the South Park episode from a couple of years ago where the boys were charged with a “hate crime” when they used the word “fags” to refer to a gang of annoying yuppie Harley riders. When asked why they were using a word so offensive to homosexuals, they responded “What does ‘fag’ have to do with homosexuals?”. The word has been cut adrift from its gay-bashing origins, and the same thing is now happening with the word “gay” itself.

          And so it goes with “flash mob”. No longer simply a spontaneous gathering of Twittering metrosexual 20-somethings singing and dancing in a public place, a “flash mob” can be considered ANY spontaneous gathering of large group for a common purpose.

          Now PLEASE stop fixating on parsing word usage and get back on topic, Dave!

      • Dave67

        I dunno Mike,

        Maybe its the article itself that talks about “flash mobs” using the completely wrong definition.. Ok, thats on me… I do get annoyed when a holier than thou type like Bob L uses fear to put an idea out that NONE of the major city ploice chiefs including NYC, Chicago, LA, DC support… the idea of having weapons with large capacity magazines on the street.

        Why does Bob L think having assault weapons with large capacity is a good idea?

        Using his link, the link talks about 221 instances of a group attack on an individual or other group or business since 2002. Bob L thinks that is a solution to the problem. 20 instances per year in North America (The United States and Canada) thats a population of well over 300 Million people is justification for greater carnage. The link misuses the term “flash mob” and Bob uses a nice dash of racism to get the soft headed people who automatically agree with all fired up.

        According to the link that Bob supplied… If me and my friends were a bunch of dumbazzes and we go out and we are walking around and see two homosexuals kissing that that act offends us and we beat them up, that is part of Bob dumb premise to arm the homosexuals with assault weapons and large capacity magaizines so that fixes the problem.

        REALLY?

        If you think my example is silly, its not. Its in Bob’s link.

        Bob is a pro-gun fearmonger that will have no rational discussion of how to reduce the gun violence in this country short of arming everybody. Unfortunately, too many share his warped view.

        Sorry Mike, that dog just won’t hunt.

    • Bill

      If it scares you so much, Dave, why do you chose to read it?

      • Dave67

        Bill,

        This article is funny to me. Conservatives are the ones with the fear issue that Bob L exploits for for his own purposes.

        • BR549

          Dave wrote: “Conservatives are the ones with the fear issue that Bob L exploits for for his own purposes.”

          I practice scuba to continue to stay prepared to exercise my right to pursue my happiness. I practice soccer to stay at the top of my game, at least as far as I am able to do.

          According to you, I would be taking up scuba to hide in underwater caves when the bomb got dropped, or I was playing soccer in order kick the snot out of someone when my AR jammed. Boyscouts train and prepare ………. just to train and prepare. It builds character, knowing that a person has some measure of being able to protect himself and his family.

          I dunno, maybe you people aren’t familiar with such concepts on your planet. I think your people are afraid of that inner beast that has been avoided for so long that if it ever got out, you wouldn’t have control of it. You need to work on that.

          As for the rest of us, that’s why we practice, ……. with guns, with cooking, with being civil, and understanding WHY we need to respect each other’s boundaries. If you understood what the framers had been discussing with respect to individual sovereignty, this would make better sense. Without that, without the focus on boundaries and rights, I can see why this world would seem so scary for some.

      • Dave67

        BR549,

        That is not what I am saying. If you are a conservative and you buy into this non-issue around what Bob L is trying to propagandize than you are letting fear rule your life.

        I choose not not to life in fear. Its just that simple.

        Glad you practice scuba and soccer… I practice drums and football. I am not the drummer for RUSH just because I have a drumset. On the same point, most gun owners i know do not practice handling their weapon properly, nor do they store their guns properly, still others have not been trained to handle the adreneline rush and fear that comoes with being face to face with an armed assailant or a mob. Giving a store owner a semi-auto rifle with a high capacity magazine in their store waiting around for the EXTREMELY UNLIKELY EVENT OF A VIOLENT FLASH MOB, is a recipe for disaster on so many levels.

        But Bob doesn’t care about any of those details just like he doesn’t care about the details in the link he provided.

        • BR549

          Dave,
          While you may be correct in saying that many people are not all that familiar with their firearms, the fact remains that the accident rate is far lower than going to a doctor on a regular basis.

          Like anything else, firearms require practice, but it would seem that either a lot more people are practicing under the table, have been able to exercise a LOT more discipline than you give them credit for, or it is a freakin’ miracle that all these 300,000,000 guns just aren’t falling out of dresser drawers and blowing off people’s feet.

          The bottom line is that just because people have fire extinguishers in their kitchen doesn’t mean that they expect to have a fire. They don’t sit up at night waiting for the fire to come; they just learn how to use it for some day when they MIGHT need it, hoping that they never have to.

      • Vicki

        Dave67 says:
        “This article is funny to me. Conservatives are the ones with the fear issue that Bob L exploits for for his own purposes.”

        And who is it that exploits the anti-gun crowds fear of inanimate objects? And least Bob is pointing to actual humans.

      • Jana

        Dave67,
        Actually you come across as a control freak. You have to force us to see things YOUR way, and as far as you are concerned that is the only way. That is the main problem with closed minded liberals. They are blinded to the Truth because they want to be.

        You said earlier________________I am not interested in a “yes, you are so right” party. Its boring and I come here on the hope you or another one of your writers can say something intelligent to challenge my belief system (otherwise beliefs are not worth keeping if they can’t stand up to scrutiny) and get info from the few conservatives that are thoughtful about their fiscal conservatism (I have no use for social conservatives, they for the most part are a waste of carbon)___________
        Wrong.

        You came on here because you are interested in a “yes” to the socialist party and you are trying to push that agenda on here.
        The problem is you don’t say anything intelligent to challenge our belief system.

        You stated how you felt about anyone that is not just like you. They are a waste of air. You really do have a lot to learn. But you won’t. It takes a willingness to learn and that is your down fall.

      • Dave67

        Jana, you are a regular Sherlock Holmes… Yes, I am a socialist. Too bad you have no clue what the term means. Thats why I am in international business to business sales… because I want the state to own the means of production.

        I wish some here could uses their heads for something besides a hat rack.

        I wish I could get it to sink in to some people here. The problem of gun violence in America is not solved by gun bans. I have never said it, Obama in his proposals is not saying it. The solution lies in changing the culture and strengthening law enforcement and most of all teaching all those who own guns the proper use and storage of those weapons.

        How some here say that is radical is beyond me, the majority of Americans support those proposals from Obama because they are Common sense.

    • tim

      It’s chickensh!ts like you that let the gov’t take away our freedoms. Hopefully you will never have anyone break into your’e home and rape your’e wife while you watch helplessly. Hopefully your’e wife will not leave you afterwards for a man who will protect her!!!!!!!

      • Dave67

        BOO!

        That scared you didn’t it Tim?

        I am more man than you will ever be and more woman than you will ever have.

      • 45caliber

        Dave:

        LOL! That is the stupidist statement I think I’ve ever read!

      • Dave67

        45 Caliber,

        You want stupidity? Read Bob’s link he just gave.

        tim is a moron, and I made fun of him as such. Sorry you missed the humor in the statement.

      • eddie47d

        I see Tim has taken this subject off into rape and home invasion. I haven’t seen anywhere Tim where Dave says you or your wife can’t protect yourself! Please show me where he says she can have a pistol in her purse or you can have a gun in a desk drawer or whatever. I’ll be waiting!

      • eddie47d

        Should say “can’t” have a gun

      • Vicki

        eddie47d surprises us by advocating concealed carry and says:
        “Please show me where he says she can’t have a pistol in her purse or you can’t have a gun in a desk drawer or whatever. I’ll be waiting!”

        (I added eddies correction)

        Or maybe eddie was saying that Dave67 advocates concealed carry.

  • jdn

    OMG Can you imagine the hell to pay if someone actually opened fire on one of these black teenage mobs . Every black and liberal for a thousand miles would be there for blood . How dare they shoot one or more of their violent thieving sweethearts .Its sad and the norm in this country today that blacks can do no wrong and soon I’m sure they will all recieve amnesty and be released from the prisons , after all its possible that some of their great great great grandparents were slaves .

    • eddie47d

      Oh boy! Now its a racial and a Liberal issue. What if its a white flash mob? I hardly doubt if they would gain any respect or be “thieving sweethearts” either. Some of you are just plain sick, racist and cold hearted to the bone! By the way “if blacks can do no wrong” then why are so many in prison?

      • jdn

        Sorry Eddiee , the only white flash mobs I’ve seen or heard about go arround dancing , singing and enterytaining folks in strange places . ALL the black flash mobs on the other hand – well you check the news and tell me if they are entertaining . And yes its getting crazy in the news to the point that if you say anything about a problem or actions of a black person you get slapped with the race card . If this trend goes much further it will result in either realesing all blacks and no further prosecutions or … Well you figure out whatr a well armed populace can dio about the problem .

      • eddie47d

        Sorry JDN you could have made your first point without the racial undertones so no prize for you!

      • 45caliber

        jdn:

        “Well you figure out whatr a well armed populace can dio about the problem .”

        Why do you think the libs are so intend on disarming the population? They fear this too. That is the one real fear I have for the US. I don’t want to have a race war here since a lot of people will die – even though I’m certain that the blacks won’t win. For one thing, they are badly outnumbered. I don’t WANT anyone to be killed … regardless of race! And just recently on one of these sites I saw a black guy insist that with Oblama as President they can go out and start shooting everyone else because “their man” will order the police and military to guard them from reprisal while they do it.

  • Truckinwife

    Better yet, why not slap heavy jail terms on these bad guys in the first place. Justice has gotten a bad rap as of late, with the bad guys getting back on the streets as quick as they were jailed.
    Also I will be the big meanie here, make the death sentence more enforced. No years of sitting on death row, but quickly dispatch the bad guy. Maybe if you make crime something to think second thoughts about then it wouldn’t happen.

    In the mean time, just knock off the whole limiting the second amendment at all. If a bunch of people were carrying guns around the area of the flash mobs how fast would those mobs disappear due to the fact that doing it would be dangerous.

    I mean not only does the shop owner carry but the public that is around him does as well, Then the bad guys would have to deal with more then one person armed and ready to protect themselves and others. But in the whole scheme of things remember lives are more important then things. As candy bars, and newspapers can be replaced but human life can’t. Be aware of where you are placing the end of that gun at.

    • 45caliber

      I agree with you. One of the main reasons for crime (the other two are crowding and the fact that those on welfare can’t get extra money any other way without losing their “checks”) is a lack of real punishment. The prison system can have them work but they can’t truly make them do it. In fact, the ONLY punishment the TX prison system can give is to deprive them of one of their privileges such as exercise time, canteen purchases, dayroom privileges, etc. or lock them up in solitary. But solitary is not truly solitary, particularly since there is no AC. It is too hot if they isolate them so they can’t. They can talk to each other in adjacent cells. Some even like it. And none of the punishment can be for more than 2 weeks. They MUST provide a place to exercise, have a library, have exercise equipment, basketball, handball, softball for trustees, tv in day rooms with NO censorship (although they don’t have to use satellite and porn movies), etc. It’s little wonder they don’t mind going back when they get out. The government has lowered parole requirements to 1 month served for each year of sentence and they can get special reductions for such things as joining a religion. So the juries have made up for it by giving very long sentences so they will serve at least a year or two before being released. Live sentences mean they are elgible for parole after 30 years – life sentences with no parole means they can get out after 60 years. The death penalty is the only way to make sure they don’t get out again and there are a lot of people in the US who want us to end that.

      The ONLY way to keep them from commiting more crimes when they get out (as determined by a psychiatrist in Maine years ago) is to make it so hard on them in prison that they don’t want to go back. But thanks to our federal judges that isn’t possible either.

  • http://PersonalLibertyDigest Cappy

    Anyone think of attack dogs? A couple of well trained dogs can deter and herd a out-of-control crowd out the door quickly. Just letting people know you have these dogs in the store can be a deterant. Contrary to what most people think, these dog are social and will not bite or act aggressive unless directed by their owner.

    • Vicki

      Dogs react to mob mentality.. What is to stop them from getting confused and attacking a customer?

  • Dan

    After the LA Riots, I went to a furniture store on Long Beach Blvd Long Beach that was not burned to the ground like the rest of the street. It turned out the salesman was the owner. I asked how his store survived the riot.
    He said when the mob came down the street he did the John Travolta….Huh… He showed me the John Travolta Saturday Night Live classic move….pointing upwards.. then he said he was pointing at his 4 employees with assault rifles on the roof. The mob saw them turned and went the other direction.
    Several other instances in the LA Riots where armed citizens stopped raiding and looting. Without firing a shot or pointing guns at bad guys.

    • eddie47d

      How quaint! That was an active riot and the store owners saw it coming and prepared. Flash mobs don’t announce what they are up to or when or where it will happen. How many Sears employees do you see standing on top of the roofs with rifles? How many Best Buy employees do you see on the roofs waiting for flash mobs? Your solutions are non-sequiturs on this topic!

      • Dennis48e

        “That was an active riot and the store owners saw it coming and prepared.”

        Wrong. California had at that time a 2 week waiting period. The riots developed in at most a couple of days. There is no way the owners could have seen them coming and prepared for it in the time they had.

      • eddie47d

        Which meant they owned those shotguns and other rifles before the riots.

      • 45caliber

        Dennis and eddie:

        You can’t “prepare” for trouble when it already occurs. You seem to think so, or at least Dennis does. You prepare by trying to determine what MIGHT happen and then get ready for it if it does occur. That’s exactly why we want the NON-assualt rifles and large capacity magazines. Like a flash mob, you don’t know a problem is coming but you get prepared for it. Yes, the Rodney King riots kicked off in a couple of days and no one expected them. BUT … the owners of those stores did expect riots so they bought guns early. Now the Demos (and I call them that for a very good reason – they want to DEMOlish all our freedoms) want to prevent us from being prepared in the event of a home invasion by several people or riots or other possible scenarios. Do I (and others here) want them to come? H3LL NO! But we want to be prepared if and when they do.

      • Vicki

        eddie47d says:
        “Flash mobs don’t announce what they are up to or when or where it will happen.”

        Sure they do. Dave67 even made a big point about how they organize using “social media”

      • Vicki

        eddie47d writes:
        “How many Sears employees do you see standing on top of the roofs with rifles? How many Best Buy employees do you see on the roofs waiting for flash mobs?”

        Exactly the same number as were on those stores in LA.

        - eddie47d: “Your solutions are non-sequiturs on this topic!”

        Since the topic is hi-capacity magazines and mobs and his comment was the actual use of hi-capacity magazines and mobs his solutions were quite sequitur.

      • Dave67

        Vicki,

        Obviously you and many others here are challenged by what a flash mob is and how they show up. In many cases its a group within a social media cite. Only members see it.

        See thats how it works… the members show up and then a song starts and they do a dance routine and everyone else is taken by surprise by it. Do I need to tell you what surprise means?

        Keep trying Vicki, one day you will get it.

        • Frank Kahn

          I see you decided to pick and choose which definition you use for your argument to ridicule. It also means those that do it to commit mayhem, destruction and violent personal attacks. So it not just to gather and sing songs and dance.

      • Dave67

        Frank,

        See my post to Jana, I mentioned that as well and if you went to the link that Bob provided, you will see how absurd this story truly is…

        221 “flash mobs” in the United States and Canada since 2002. Many of the links Bob gave are not even “flash mobs”

        Blame Bob for the nonsense.

      • Dennis48e

        ‘You can’t “prepare” for trouble when it already occurs. You seem to think so, or at least Dennis does.”

        45 go back and re-read my comment. I was blowing major holes in eddie’s argument that the store owners armed themselves when they saw the riots starting. I did NOT say they could have prepared in the time they had at the start of the riots even if Kalifornia had no waiting period.

      • Dennis48e

        “Which meant they owned those shotguns and other rifles before the riots.”

        And that completely contradicts your earlier claim of:

        “That was an active riot and the store owners saw it coming and prepared.”

  • Alton

    Best thing is to get a 12 gauge shot gun saw the barrel off a little, buy several boxes of buckshot. After a couple shots 10, 15 or more will be down and keep shooting till you run out of shells won’t be many left standing. The wounded ones if there are any go by club them in the head, save the taxpayers money on non trails.

  • Adolf Schmidt

    I have watched several clips of Obama addressing the people on gun control! In his speech he would say ” The American people should not have the same weapons as our military!”. The Bushmaster at Sandy Hooks was not by definition a assault rifle! It was a military STYLE rifle! It LOOKED like a gun that might be carried by our troops, but it did not perform the same. Obama is trying to make the American people believe that machine guns are available at every gun store and gun show, there not! The military style weapons available to the average consumer is a semi automatic, not a machine gun! The guns that Obama is trying to ban are no more lethal or dangerous than any other magazine feed handgun, rifle, or shotgun! There are a lot of people what Obama is saying. Please continue to set the record straight people! We need to push to have the people (politicians) educated on guns so they have a chance to make a informed decision! I don’t think it will help much! There are other reasons they are picking away at the 2nd !

    • Vicki

      Adolf Schmidt writes:
      “The American people should not have the same weapons as our military!””

      That is particularly interesting since he says he wants a civilian security force as well equipped as our military.
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tt2yGzHfy7s

      The founders thought that was a really good idea and that it would be better to cut out the middleman and have every able bodied (male at the time) BE the military. They even used it as a (not only) reason for the Right of the PEOPLE to KEEP and BEAR arms shall NOT be infringed.

      so if obama wants it, and the founders want it, and it is in the Constitution, why are liberals (mysteriously including obama) demanding that civilians not have the same weapons as the military?

      • Adolf Schmidt

        I don’t think I mentioned whether the public should be allowed to have the same weapons as the military. The only people that I’ve known of to own them have been gun dealer with a Federal Firearms License. A few years ago, I was at a corner store when 4 men walked in at the same time. The men went to separate areas of the store and just waited around. When I was at the checkout, the lady behind the counter passed me the receipt with the words ” Call the police”! I drove around the corner to the nearest pay phone and called 911. Four officers arrived about 20 minutes later. The officers asked me to back in the store by myself to get a better description of the men and come back and let them know what was happening. I really didn’t want too, but I would have felt guilty if anything happened to the lady working there. The men had already left by the time we had returned to the store. The men had been in the store before and had taken items and harassed her. The police in our town are lame on the most part! My mother caught a man stealing from outside her house. He fled as she was getting his license plate number. She gave the number to the police who did manage to stop the guy about 10 blocks away. One of the officers asked ” What do you want us to do with him”! He thought we should let him go since he didn’t get away with much. That was because my fathers tool box made for a truck fell out as he was speeding off! Another officer seen my mother was upset and looked into it a little farther! The man had a warrant out for his arrest already! I do believe a well armed militia is needed. With guidance and training by law enforcement with a better work ethic than our local police dept. As for what types of weapons to be allowed, I have always believed that every type of gun has it’s own purpose, and none should be excluded from choice of possibilities. I didn’t much care for either presidential candidate this last election but flip flopping was not not an exclusive to Romney was it ? Thanks for the video clip, I had not seen that one yet. Obama is a prime example of a hypocrite and down right liar!.

  • steve

    [racist comments removed]

  • http://www.facebook.com/douglas.sawdy Douglas Sawdy

    I say we need Rpg’s,100 round clips,and all fully auto machine guns,tanks ect. I love my fully auto ak 47′s and my 50 sub machine gun with 500 round belts. Screw the feds and this government…..We the people are the government. What we say goes,not what they say. Grow a pair and tell the government to get screwed and get out

    • 45caliber

      Douglas:

      You are either very rich (which I doubt), dealing in illegal guns (which I doubt), or are falsely implying you can get illegal guns. Which is it? Besides, .50 caliber machine guns have 100 rd. belts, not 500. Ever tried to pick one up?

      • Vicki

        He is most likely a paid agent provocateur.

      • Frank Kahn

        Actually the .50 cal belts that fed the tail guns on the B-52 were 1,500 rounds and very heavy in boxes. I would laugh at anyone claiming they could A. carry 100 rounds of .50 cal ammo B. carry (very far) a .50 cal machine gun C. Be able to hold onto the machine gun while it was firing and D. be able to keep the belt positioned so the rounds fed properly into the gun. However, a Hummer mounted .50 cal machine gun with proper feed mechanism would be a great equalizer in a fight against heavily armed military insurgents.

    • Tom Carter

      Doug: Please learn the differece between a CLIP and a MAGAZINE!!!

  • Roo

    For the record:
    I own Three Volvos and I did NOT vote for Obama or Bush.

  • AK Tom

    I don’t “need” an assault rifle or high-capacity magazines and hope I never do. Just like I don’t need a fire extinguisher, seat belts, life jackets, first-aid kit, insurance…etc.

  • jopa

    I think the best thing would be to have 50 cal. machine guns mounted in all four corners of the K-Marts and Walmarts of America and the second a flash mob of teen agers come in the door to steel lipstick bubble gum and such open fire and keep firing until they run out of ammo.You could kill the whole mob in a matter of seconds and scare the crap out of anyone else thinking about shoplifting.If the K-Mart is located within fifty miles of an airbase you could call in an air strike.Then there is the nuclear option still on the table to protect all these shopkeepers.

    • Dave67

      Jopa,

      I think the conservatives would be happy if we just “relocated” anyone who is not of European dissent to certain ghettos, then put fenses around them. This way they can feel safe.

      Conservatives by definition are scared. I wish we could just give all the white conservatives Texas and call it a day. It will be funny to see them have to raise taxes to pay for things, raise an army and have a gov that enforces laws.

      • eddie47d

        The problem is there are too many Steve’s on this site trying to start a race war and are eager for it! Yes Dave one week they will talk until they are blue in the face about arming all the schools and the next they will demand that there will be no tax increases. How in the heck can you have more security and not pay for it. One week they will complain there are too many cameras spying on us then the next they want more cameras and security systems put in schools. Last week you know who said our infrastructure is failing. Yet for the last 3 years he and others have ignored the problem and even said its a waste of taxpayer money.

      • Paul

        dave WE ARE NOT SCARED WE HAVE GUNS…only the liberals like you are scared…and thanks to uncle sam most of us have been very well trained in their use so operation in bad situations are not a problem…but don’t you worry about your constitutional rights because WE WILL PROTECT THEM WITH OUR LIFE..!!!!!!!!!

      • Dave67

        They are extreme phonies in that regard Eddie. We know this. They say “no” to everything on Capital Hill and then complain Obama hasn’t done anything to help the country.

        It would be funny if this wasn’t my country too.

      • Dave67

        Paul,

        Let me explain it to you… If you feel you NEED a gun for protection… You are scared.

        I go where I want, when I want.. I am not afraid to go where I am the only white person.. I don’t feel uncomfortable because I judge people on their actions and words. I don’t do or sell drugs so I feel pretty secure in my social common sense that I can avoid trouble. I don’t NEED a gun as Bob says you NEED to have large capacity magazines.

        WANT is a whole other issue. If people had the proper respect for guns and violence, be properly trained on weapons and their storage, if we had good economic opportunity for all, good mental health systems in the country. My guess is we wouldn’t be having this debate.

      • 45caliber

        Dave:

        It amuses me when someone insists that Americans – particularly conservatives – are “scared”. Really? Scared of what? Terrorists? A few MIGHT be but I doubt it. Otherwise we’d be shivering at home and never go out. Scared of someone of another race? Why? The majority of us get along fine. The rare few who don’t are setting themselves up for arrest and possibly even death. Why be afraid of those? Actually the libs have been trying to scare Americans for a long time because frightened people are willing to follow anyone who might grant them some measure of safety. They tell us we SHOULD be afraid of terrorists, racists, or whatever – but very few of us are. So your accusations that we have to have guns because we are afraid is funny. We have guns for many reasons such as hunting, target shooting, being prepared if we are attacked, etc. but not due to fear. I’ve not been afraid of anything since I was a kid – and I’ve been in combat since then. So I do believe you are wasting your time preaching this on this site. You should really go to Kos or Huffington Post to preach this. They would listen to you there.

      • Dave67

        45 Caliber,

        You say Liberals are guilty of spreading fear? Ok… I agree… Conservatives are just as or better at it because conservative hate things like change. Its in their nature…

        They are afraid of homosexuals getting the right to marry so the pass laws that ban them and try and change the Constitution because of their fear. There is no logic there.

        They didn’t like African Americans getting freedom, the right to vote etc.

        What are conservatives scared of? What do you have?

        Bob tells conservatives they NEED to have high capacity gun magazines for the problem of violent flash mobs which is defined as groups of people using social media to meet at a certain place, at a certain time to rob or do bodily harm.

        Bob’s own site lists the reported incidences of these “flash mobs” and if you bothered to look at the actual stories, most are not “flash mobs” and even if they were… Bob’s link provided 221 “violent flash mobs” in the United states and Canada since 2002.

        And how does that measure against 300M people over a 12 year span?

        We can do better to minimize the incidences of gun violence in this country. Doing nothing is not an option. Can you say “greater odds of winning the lottery” when it comes to being hit by a flash mob. What Bog says that on the basis of that everyone in these businesses should be walking around arms with high capacity magazines. Do you see a problem that could arise there?

        • MikeW

          Dave, you say:
          “You say Liberals are guilty of spreading fear? Ok… I agree… Conservatives are just as or better at it because conservative hate things like change. Its in their nature…

          They didn’t like African Americans getting freedom, the right to vote etc.”

          Slightly off-topic, but read your history. Abraham Lincoln, who freed the slaves was a conservative Republican. Dwight Eisenhower, who sent the National Guard to enforce school desegregation in the South, was a conservative Republican. The heaviest resistance to the emancipation of blacks and their advancement to full-and-equal citizenship status came from Democrats. They blocked legislation; when they couldn’t block passage, they attempted to block implementation.

          Don’t point the finger only at Conservatives and Republicans when talking about fear of change. there’s plenty of it to go around, and it knows no idealogical boundaries.

          I believe in the traditional philosophy of Conservatism, which is the minimal involvement and interference of government into the lives and activities of its citizens.

        • Frank Kahn

          Opposing bad, immoral or even illegal changes is not A FEAR OF CHANGE.

          Homosexual unions (marriage) should not be illegal, but then again they should not be legal either.

          Believe it or not, the institution of marriage is a thing created by God. It is not something that can be ruled by man. Look at the original wedding vows, at the end it says “What God hath joined, let no man breaketh” it means that when you are married in Gods eyes, man can do nothing to change it. Actually, in reality, only two virgins can get married. It is the act we call consummation (sexual intercourse) that seals the marriage. Once you have sex with a woman (assuming both are virgin) you are married to her in the eyes of God. Now following those rules, most citizens are not really married in the eyes of God. Pre-marital sex, be it hetero or homo is common place in this country which disqualifies most of our younger generation from attaining the true marriage made by God.

          So, we should keep the government out of any form of rules or laws that dictate who can or cannot get married. That covers the reason why many of us resist the immoral change you mention of accepting gay marriage.

          What other changes, that you think are good, do you see us as opposing?

          Changing the Constitution? I will have to disagree with you here. Most Conservatives I know want to preserve it as written, to keep liberals from re-interpreting it and thereby changing the meaning of what is in it.

          Opposition to Black (not African American) voting, education, jobs etc? Maybe, I am in the minority here, but I dont have a problem with those things. I know there were times in the past when many whites opposed it and some still do but I doubt that the percentage of conservatives opposing it is larger than the percentage of liberals. The problem usually lies in the way you define a liberal or conservative. Usually it is neither, but instead radical extremists that hold these views. You might notice that I object to the made up term of African Americans when referencing the black members of our citizenry. This is not racist, nor is it opposition to change. I lived through many changes in what they wanted to be called and I stopped accepting new names with black. In my opinion, a person who was born in Africa as an African citizen, then immigrated to America is an African American. If you were born in America you are an American. I am not a separatist, and I dont like other groups demanding separatist ideas. To demand a special title of citizenship because of racial or ethnic ancestry is unacceptable. I dont go around calling myself a German American.

      • Vicki

        Dave67 says:
        “I think the conservatives would be happy if we just “relocated” anyone who is not of European dissent to certain ghettos, then put fenses around them. This way they can feel safe.”

        As opposed to liberals who want ~300 MILLION Americans who DIDN’T shoot anyone to give up their Constitutionally protected rights just so liberals can FEEL safe?

        - Dave67: “Conservatives by definition are scared.”

        As opposed to liberals who are (apparently) scared of inanimate objects?

      • Dave67

        Mike,

        I know this may come as a shock to you… But backin in the 1950′s, it was the Democrats that were the conservatives.

        Both parties have changed in the past 150 years and I could care or less about “party” its ideology that I am talking about.

        Vicki,

        Nowhere to I call for the disarming of law-abiding citizens. You can repeat the same lie over and over again if you need that to believe it, but it doesn’t make it true.

        The funniest bit of non-sense is the one where you say “flash mob” is an evolving term. The first thing that is funny about that is a conservative using the term “evolving” The second is the term itself is not evolving, the definition is pretty clear.

        You are just upset your hero got caught with BS.

      • Vicki

        Dave67 says:
        “Nowhere to I call for the disarming of law-abiding citizens.”

        Then I am sure you will join me in telling government that

        ~300 MILLION AMERICANS DID NOT SHOOT ANYONE.

        STOP PUNISHING THE INNOCENT.

        STOP IT
        STOP IT NOW

        Or are you failing to mention something?

      • Dave67

        I will join you Vicki but first can you join me and abolish all traffic laws because

        MILLIONS HAVE NEVER BEEN IN AN ACCIDENT

        STOP IT!

        STOP IT NOW!

  • Rennie

    DO NOT FALL INTO THE RACE TRAP! These flash mobs can as easily be made up of any demographic, the real issue here is “social justice”, that thing which those seeking to destroy this country desire this result of lawlessness to justify complete state control of everything, these are the “brown shirts” and are the ones more likely to come to your home for your guns or food than jack booted uniforms. And once they know you have no or pitiful firearms to resist, they can simply overwhelm you and yes, may even have illegal weapons. HOWEVER they can’t vanish in thin air, they need vehicles, and to counter that community groups need their own rapid response vehicles, to at least paint or record said offending flash mob vehicles. The police are afraid of racism charges if they try and apprehend them, store owners and customers are literally, ON THEIR OWN so the community must come to their aid. Literally, if Bloomberg, Coumo and Obama are intending to make people victims in certain areas, those areas will become wastelands, more ghetto, and they will wonder why? MOVE out if you can to areas of resistance or tell your supposed city leaders you will if they don’t step up to the flash mob threat, by confronting the mobs, not by oppressing law abiding citizens.

  • JJM123

    Saw the video of the guy beaten by a gang until his skull was fractured. Perhaps he deserved vigilantee justice? If he or an accomplice was armed, it would have taken far more than 7 rounds to keep the attackers at bay and reloading would not have been an option.

  • Mike

    “The right of the people to be armed shall not be infringed.” The government has taken machine guns, tanks, hand grenades and more away. See the word infringed!

    • eddie47d

      Yes Yes anything goes in your Orwellian World and little Johnny should have equal access to those hand grenades for show and tell! Remember bigger is better!

      • Vicki

        And back when all those things were legal (say 1933) the US Population was 125,578,763 according to http://www.census.gov/popest/data/national/totals/pre-1980/tables/popclockest.txt

        The number of people killed where tool = gun was ~12,000 according to the FBI.

        The statistics are still quite clear

        ~100 MILLION Americans DID NOT SHOOT ANYONE. What did the government do? It punished the innocent with a law. NFA 1934.

        STOP PUNISHING THE INNOCENT.

        STOP IT
        STOP IT NOW

  • MikeW

    Dave67, you said:
    “…the 2nd Amendment did not account for the types of wepaons we have today or the size and system of gov/population we have today…”

    Using that logic, Dave, we would have to exclude TV, Radio, movies, the internet (and other electronic media) from First Amendment guarantees of Freedom of Speech and Freedom of the Press because “the 1st Amendment did not account for the types of communications we have today or the size and system of gov/population we have today.”

    The powers of the Federal government are specifically spelled out in the body of the Constitution. The 10 Amendments comprising the Bill of Rights were specifically crafted in response to abuses and overreach by the Colonial government, as a means to protect the people from such government tyranny and intrusiveness in the future.

    It amazes me how, to a Liberal, the Constitution is a “living document”, infinitely flexible and adaptable to contemporary interpretation, EXCEPT in the sole exception of the 2nd Amendment. To them, the 2nd Amendment protection ONLY applies to muskets and flintlock pistols, but the “interstate commerce clause” somehow empowers the Federal government to totally ignore the rest of the Constitution.

    • Dave67

      Mike,

      How does the internet and automatic weapons equate?

      • MikeW

        Dave, You can’t possibly be that dense! You know quite well that I’m not presenting an “apples and oranges” comparison here, although it is a typical Liberal tactic to use such diversions to avoid an argument they can’t win on logic. Only a moron would think that I’m actually comparing the internet and automatic weapons.

        The correlation is in using the inability of our Founding Fathers to foresee future technology as an reason to expand (or in the case of the 2nd Amendment, LIMIT) the scope of our Constitutional protections. Just as our 1st Amendment protections have been expanded to include electronic communications (as well as a “Right to Privacy” that the Founders did not include in ANY form), so too should our 2nd Amendment protections be expanded to include changing firearms technologies.

        Regardless of whether you believe in the strict letter of the Constitution or in a “living interpretation” approach, you should at least be consistent. Either its ALL flexible, or NONE of it is. You can’t have it both ways, with every part of the document subject to evolving interpretation EXCEPT the 2nd Amendment..

      • Dave67

        am asking you the question how does the ability to communicate thoughts and words more effectively equate to going from a musket that takes over a minute to reload to weaponry that can fire 50,60, 70 rounds a minute for the expressed purpose of killing?

        Then asked yourself, what kind of country were we in the 1700′s and contrast against here and now.

        One of the tactics conservatives engage in is making outlandish comparisons with zero regard to the time of the US Constitution writing or the reality of today. Or are you that dense since you are going to call me names after I asked you a honest question.

        • MikeW

          I called you no names, Dave. I am simply trying to understand the apparent inconsistency of your approach to the Constitution. I did not call you “dense”. In fact, I stated that I did not believe you really could “be that dense” so as to genuinely misinterpret my comments. I’m attempting to engage in an intelligent discussion with someone who is so locked into the tactics of diversion that you are deliberately twisting my words instead of addressing the issue.

          You are a fine one to talk about “outlandish comparisons”, Dave. Once again, you attempt to change the debate from one about consistency in Constitutional interpretation to a totally ludicrous comparison of firearms and electronic communications. That is NOT the issue here.

          YOU are the one dodging the real issue of the “…time of the US Constitution writing or the reality of today…”, which is precisely my point. Changing times bring about changing realities in ALL aspects of life.

          Since the purpose of the 2nd Amendment (and the rest of the Bill of Rights) was to protect the people from governmetal intrusion in their lives (NOT just for hunting and target shooting), the people therefore have the NATURAL (and Constitutionally guaranteed, NOT “granted”) RIGHT to be able to protect themselves from potential threat of such governmental overreach. A group of people armed with muskets can hardly resist the imposition of a government police state that is equipped with state-of-the-art firepower.

          In YOUR world, we’re supposed to have an evolving, inclusive attitude toward all new technological advances EXCEPT for firearms, which you think we should still limit to what was available in the 1700s. Muskets were fine for keeping government forces out of our homes in the 18th Century, but are woefully inadequate in the 21st.

      • eddie47d

        Our Constitution, Amendments and Bill of Rights should be fiercely defended on principle for everyone benefits from those accords. Yet our Founding Fathers weren’t infallible humans even though they were probably the most brilliant men on the face of the earth at that time. Yet everything we face today is different than the challenges they had. Many of them owned slaves yet today we find that despicable so they indeed wrote from a different perspective. They also didn’t practice what they preached but they set the ground work for us to do so. That means things do change and the Constitution doesn’t stop us from trying new and more practical ways of creating a better life. Our Amendments are also not a straight jacket in interpretation.

      • Vicki

        Dave67 says:
        “am asking you the question how does the ability to communicate thoughts and words more effectively equate to going from a musket that takes over a minute to reload to weaponry that can fire 50,60, 70 rounds a minute for the expressed purpose of killing?”

        How does the first amendment relate to (list) equate to the 2nd amendment relate to (list).

        - Dave67: “Then asked yourself, what kind of country were we in the 1700′s and contrast against here and now.”

        Similar. Slaves to the King. Well until late 1700′s when the King sent his men to collect the heavy firepower of the people.

        - Dave67: “One of the tactics conservatives engage in is making outlandish comparisons with zero regard to the time of the US Constitution writing or the reality of today.”

        So let us look at today.

        ~300 MILLION Americans have rights given to them by their Creator.
        Government was hired and charged with the task of protecting those rights.
        One of the SPECIFICALLY MENTIONED rights is the right to KEEP and BEAR arms.

        ~300 MILLION AMERICANS DID NOT SHOOT ANYONE.

        STOP PUNISHING THE INNOCENT for the acts of a few.

        STOP IT
        STOP IT NOW

        There you go. We kept to today. We notice that OUR Creator didn’t change His mind about the rights He gave us. Yours might but only you would know. Unless there is only ONE Creator as we believe in which case He didn’t change your rights either.

      • eddie47d

        Millions don’t cause harm by speeding so abolish speed limits now. STOP IT NOW!

      • Opal the Gem

        “Yet our Founding Fathers weren’t infallible humans even though they were probably the most brilliant men on the face of the earth at that time.”

        And they realized that eddie. That is why they provided a way to alter the Constitution by amending it. It is also why they made it relatively difficult to amend so that it could not be changed on just a whim.

    • 45caliber

      MikeW:

      In a way, the libs like Dave are right when they say our founding fathers didn’t intend for us to have the same weapons as the military did.

      They expected us to have BETTER weapons than the military does. That’s one of the reasons we won the Revolutionary War. The Americans then had rifles – far better weapons than the muskets the British issued to their soldiers. And the Founding Fathers expected us to continue that tradition.

      • Jeremy Leochner

        No offense 45caliber but it really did not matter much since the Americans were so heavily out numbered. I am not saying the weapons were not effective. But strategy and numbers do play a significant role. The Americans had to use the weapons as snipers and sharp shooters rather than battle in a stand up fight.

        The problem with every American having better weapons than the military is that it allows them to over power the police whether their intentions are good or bad.

        • MikeW

          Jeremy, you said “The problem with every American having better weapons than the military is that it allows them to over power the police whether their intentions are good or bad.”

          The police have nothing to fear from armed, law-abiding citizens, no matter what type of firearms they possess, provided THEIR intentions are good. Unfortunately, pre-employment background checks and psych exams for police officers often fail to weed out the type of arrogant, power-tripping bullies that give decent honest officers a bad name.

          Keep in mind Ruby Ridge and Waco. The victims of BATF and FBI intervention broke no laws, yet those unprovoked government-run home invasions led to the deaths of many innocent civilians who legally acquired firearms that made the Feds nervous.

          And of course, Eric Holder’s “Fast and Furious” program, which deliberately put thousands of weapons into the hands of Mexican drug cartels so they could use the stats as justification for cracking down on legal US gun sales.

      • 45caliber

        Jeremy:

        You are somewhat right about the War. However, the Americans were used to fighting Indians and had learned that the only way to do that was to hide and shoot from cover. The British believed that you should stand on line facing your enemies at a range of about 20 yards and fire away. The Americans weren’t that dumb.

        And the criminals are able to overpower the police. It isn’t the better guns that give the police an advantage over the criminals. It is other things like radios, computers, and numbers. The criminals seldom are able to mass as many people as the police can. Further, the police can get aid if they actually need it from citizens who won’t stand by to watch the police get killed. The criminals generally can’t.

      • Jeremy Leochner

        I agree about the revolution.

        The problem regarding criminals with heavy weaponry is situations like the North Hollywood shoot out where criminals had full automatic assault weapons. The police were forced to go into a local gun shop and use their weapons. Armed citizens did not and could not help the police apart from the local gun owner giving them weapons. Powerful weapons in the hands of criminals always ends badly.

      • Vicki

        45caliber says:
        “They (founding fathers) expected us to have BETTER weapons than the military does.”

        Well technically they expected us to BE the military. They had a distrust for standing armies. And with good reason.

      • Vicki

        Jeremy Leochner says:
        “The Americans had to use the weapons as snipers and sharp shooters rather than battle in a stand up fight.”

        They didn’t have to. They could because they had rifles with better long range accuracy and they were not stupid enough to stand there like pawns in a chess game.

        Jeremy Leochner: “The problem with every American having better weapons than the military is that it allows them to over power the police whether their intentions are good or bad.”

        This is only a problem for Tyrants.

        The good people will happily assist their servants (The Police) when bad people have better weapons. Proof in Hollywood Ca USA.
        http://www.csmonitor.com/1997/0303/030397.us.us.5.html

        Our solution was not to disarm the police. It was to remember that the police are part of THE PEOPLE and we got our servants better arms.

      • Vicki

        Jeremy Leochner says:
        “Armed citizens did not and could not help the police apart from the local gun owner giving them weapons.”

        Who is by definition an armed citizen.

        - Jeremy Leochner: “Powerful weapons in the hands of criminals always ends badly.”

        For the criminal. Case in point the North Hollywood shootout.

        And even with all those criminals running around (I did tell you to keep them in jail)

        ~300 MILLION AMERICANS DID NOT SHOOT ANYONE.

        STOP PUNISHING THE INNOCENT for the actions of a few.

        STOP IT
        STOP IT NOW

  • http://midcontent ridge runner

    Since the muslim marxist hates whites,( check out his books, written with a domestic terrorist), check out the skin tones of these flash mobs. The only people who frequent these flash mobs, are multi generational welfare smucks with lots of god buddy uncles and no daddies. All of these afferamative action fkhds vote democrap every election, Anus Powell a classic example. You know the smuck who hate being asked for an ID to vote. Any idoit who beleives smaller magazines would stp mass killings in gun free zones, what stupidity. Since gangs operate in high head counts, bigger magazines are needed, not smaller. Of course this would greatly shrink the availabity of real and fictous voters for the demorat party. Which averages a voter turn out of registered people to vote, all are in states that don’t require voter ID, think of Ohio whichad over a 157% voter turn out.

  • ibcamn

    A lot of what’s been happening is reactions to what is being imposed unwillingly on us,We The People.and every demographic reacts differently to each problem and how it effects them in everyday life!and unfortunately,some groups decide a flash mob robbery can solve their problems and is worth the risk to go to jail-or that same group see’s an opportunity to get away with stealing from a working class individual and it’s all good,he/she has insurance,no one gets hurt and they gets money for the things that they robbed of them(just not their safety of their family)this group(you could say)doesn’t think of consequences before they act out,thus supporting the stigma that is attached to this group of people!but the fear they promote doing this,does make one feel the need for several 10 round magazines or a 100 round drum!!
    It’s not a racist issue,although blacks do these sort of things and it does look bad for them!and white people do this sort of thing too!!most of the time it’s white women mobbing a bridal gown place,and those dresses are worth more than some munchies in a gas station!but some of you are right,you gonna draw down on a bunch of brides to be!?!
    I have seen the Latino ladies seem to like to use their children in this type of mob(one even left her little girl behind in the frenzy of veil and gown tossing)it seems they don’t want to spring for a sitter while they go out flash mob robbing!
    But while the white boys seem to have a few of their honey’s with them,they must want to show off,or the lady’s want to feel the rush!?!not sure on that one.but now think,out of all these robberies,which one would you be most likely to pull out your shotgun and level off on??
    yep,me too!it’s the perception we have from past history and experience,and yes,the shop’s iv’e owned in the past(several in big city areas)i have always had at least two types of weapons on the premise,somewhere in store and on me,i was never once robbed by a customer(although my partner did rob me,needless to say that partnership ended)but rather by uncommon means!my shop gun was at least my AK-47(30 round magazine) or my 12gua,and on my person was a .45cal S&W!
    every race has done this,Asians seem to like jewelry stores better and just one white guy is usually the beer section or booze isle!it just isn’t racist to say this,it really sounds like it though don’t it?with the threat of these flash mob’s,i still would have a 30 round magazine on hand and i think just showing it and then fire one or two rounds into the ceiling may make even the nastiest of mobs to disperse.
    Hey,another option for New Yorkers,have a 20 round magazine of each,blanks and live ammo!!hell i bet if you ran through 20 rounds of blanks at a high rate of fire,that mob would be gone!!then if not load your live ammo and have at it!
    could you see bridezilla’s running and screaming everywhere?ha ha ha ha ha..(there’s that evil laugh again)scared or not,yes more rounds the better nowadays,the economy is making criminals more bold and law abiding citizens criminals!

    as for grenades,i think i saw an Asian dude use one,he threatened to pull the pin out if they didn’t comply with his threats!(he was in a jewelry store)…that was for Eddie!

  • http://30minsoccerbetandwin.com Tony

    So, I go shopping with my kids and suddenly the shop gets attacked by a “flash mob”.

    The owner takes out his fully automatic and kills everybody in the shop, me and my kids included.

    And you are debating over this argueing about the type of gun the shop owner should get!

    For people thinking along these lines the real issue is not what type of gun they carry but how to take away from them not only guns, knives and scissors but their driver’s licenses too.

    The right to carry a gun of any fire power is fundamental to the freedom of all.
    The ability to think like a sane human being is a prerequisite to owning a gun.

    Does it take a genius to figure out about 100 different ways of managing such an event EXCEPT killing everybody?

    Like, make the entrance of the shop small enough to not allow fast, massive moves.
    Like, insuring property.
    Like, make merchandise arrangements

    If you’re really itching to play Call of Duty or Halo with real people, go deliver your guns and get a shrink before your hurt someone…

    Again, owning any gun is a right of every FREE citizen. FREE however does not mean INSANE.

    • 45caliber

      Tony:

      “Again, owning any gun is a right of every FREE citizen. FREE however does not mean INSANE.”

      Sadly, the Demos consider everyone but themselves insane. Yet psychologists consider anyone who tries to live a fantasy insane – which is what the libs are doing as they try to create a utopia. And many psychologists will agree that most libs are insane.

      • Jeremy Leochner

        Actually most Liberals are not trying to create utopia. They are trying to deal with a problem by addressing it. Rather than expecting average citizens to fend for themselves they want to act through legislation and law enforcement to combat the problem of illegal trading of guns and gun violence.

      • 45caliber

        Jeremy:

        Most libs ARE trying to create a utopia. And it is mostly the same one. If you sit down and talk to them long enough, you will find that they all want a world where everyone has everything they possibley want (because then no one will want to commit a crime) and everyone deserves to have whatever he wants. Everyone works at whatever they want to do (and all work gets done because someone will want to do every job that needs to be done) and there is no money at all so no one can be rich … or poor. And they themselves will be in charge of course since they are smarter than the rest of us – and they deserve to get more than the rest of us for their leadership.

        That is an impossible fantasy – but all are willing to work toward it.

        • BR549

          45Cal wrote: “Most libs ARE trying to create a utopia. And it is mostly the same one. If you sit down and talk to them long enough, you will find that they all want a world where everyone has everything they possibley want …….”

          They also believe that they have done such a great job at participating in this grand experiment that their combined wisdom has somehow surpassed that of our founding fathers. When one studies the supportive writings of our founding fathers, the fact is that they had a FAR BETTER UNDERSTANDING of the workings of man and his corruption than we do today. The only thing they were missing was the level of technology.

      • 45caliber

        Jeremy

        The libs are not trying to address a problem – they are trying to take away choice. They don’t want to allow anyone to commit murder by depriving them of the means (the gun). The problem is that if you want to stop murder (or crime) you have to solve it by convincing these people that there will be consequences they won’t like if they do commit a crime. Simplying making it somewhat harder to do won’t stop crime. And if you deprive the victims of any means of defense without depriving the criminals of the means to commit the crime (which gun confiscation is designed to do) it actually makes crime worse because you have just removed one of the biggest consequences if they do attack an armed person.

      • Jeremy Leochner

        I am a liberal and I do not wish to create that kind of utopia. And none of the liberals I know do either.

        Trying to deprive potential murderers of the means to commit murder is a way of addressing the problem. In the same way that making it harder for drunks to drive is a way to address the problem of drunk driving. No one wants to make crime stop. They want to lessen it as much as possible. Banning assault weapons will not take away peoples ability to protect themselves with hand guns or rifles or shot guns.

      • Vicki

        Jeremy Leochner says:
        “Trying to deprive potential murderers of the means to commit murder is a way of addressing the problem.”

        It is not possible so it is not addressing the problem. There is a practical way to address the problem. Allow the (potential) victim to be armed if they choose. This can work and has been demonstrated effective.

        http://www.amazon.com/More-Guns-Less-Crime-Understanding/dp/0226493660

        - Jeremy Leochner says: “In the same way that making it harder for drunks to drive is a way to address the problem of drunk driving.”

        You don’t seem to be advocating taking drinks away from “potential” drunks. So why do you continue to advocate taking guns away from law abiding citizens (not even just “potential” murderers.

        Jeremy Leochner says: “No one wants to make crime stop.”

        Really? I would think that every civilized person would want crime to stop.

        Jeremy Leochner says: “They want to lessen it as much as possible. Banning assault weapons will not take away peoples ability to protect themselves with hand guns or rifles or shot guns.”

        Too bad that the currently proposed Federal ban does. And of course all the laws that prevent you from open or concealed carry has already done.

        This is why we know you are not serious when you claim to support self defense.

      • Jeremy Leochner

        Vicki

        1: Setting up a bureaucracy that people have to go through to obtain a gun is how you stop bad guys from simply buying guns at the local wal mart. The only reason they don’t simply buy guns there is because they would have to go through a back ground check. That means they are being deprived of an easy way to get weapons. That is one way to address the problem.

        2: We do allow the victim to be armed if they choose.

        3: Actually I do advocate making it a crime to serve drinks to people who are clearly intoxicated. And I support liability for bar owners or friends who do not make sure someone has adequate transportation. And I support laws that do not allow people even with low blood alcohol levels to drive. We do not deal with the problem of drunk driving by continuing to allow obviously or possibly drunk people to get behind the wheel of a car. We don’t deal with the problem of gun violence by allowing gun regulations to be so lax that bad guys have no fear of buying guns anywhere they want with out the information being put into the system.

        4: Yes Vicki I want crime to stop. But there is no way to make that happen. I wanted to be a power ranger when I was a child. That is not going to happen. But just because we can never stop crime all together does not mean we simply keep doing what we are doing when we are hit by a terrible tragedy.

        5: I am serious about self defense. The proposed bill does not ban hand guns or shot guns or rifles. Its got an ambiguous definition for assault weapon so I oppose it. However I recognize the proposal for what it is. I know that a hand gun with a ten shot capacity or a scary looking rifle with even a seven shot capacity is plenty effective for self defense of ones home or person. In circumstances like these mobs which I believe are rare yes perhaps a gun with a larger shot capacity would be handy. However I do not base my beliefs on the most unlikely possibility. I support self defense based on what is more likely to happen, not less. Call me not serious or foolish. I call myself practical and reasonable.

      • Vicki

        Jeremy Leochner says:
        “1: Setting up a bureaucracy that people have to go through to obtain a gun is how you stop bad guys from simply buying guns at the local wal mart.”

        Stopping bad guys from buying where they don’t buy is a waste of taxpayer dollars.

        STOP PUNISHING THE INNOCENT for the acts that are never done.

        I have told you at least 3 times how to stop bad guys from buying guns. Not that you have bothered to listen.

        - Jeremy Leochner: “2: We do allow the victim to be armed if they choose.”

        Demonstrably false. That you even say it is proof that you are not serious.

        - Jeremy Leochner: “3: Actually I do advocate making it a crime to serve drinks to people who are clearly intoxicated.”

        Have you heard of a thing called a US Constitution? It has a set of rights. Buying another drink when you are drunk is found under numbers 1 and 9.

        - Jeremy Leochner: “And I support liability for bar owners or friends who do not make sure someone has adequate transportation.”

        You just love to punish the innocent. The bar owners and friends are NOT nanny.

      • Vicki

        Jeremy says:
        ” We don’t deal with the problem of gun violence by allowing gun regulations to be so lax that bad guys have no fear of buying guns anywhere they want with out the information being put into the system.”

        Bad guys have no fear of buying guns anywhere cause Eric practically gives them away.

        ~300 MILLION Americans are forced to jump thru bureaucratic red tape to exercise their fundamental right to keep and bear arms and you are ok with it. In fact every thing you say encourages more and more infringement.

        STOP PUNISHING THE INNOCENT for the acts of a very few.

        STOP IT
        STOP IT NOW

      • Vicki

        Jeremy Leochner says:
        4: Yes Vicki I want crime to stop.”

        Then why did you say ”
        “No one wants to make crime stop.” at http://personalliberty.com/2013/02/07/yes-people-need-large-capacity-magazines/#comment-831458

        - Jeremy Leochner: “But just because we can never stop crime all together does not mean we simply keep doing what we are doing when we are hit by a terrible tragedy.”

        So why do you advocate restricting fundamental rights of ~300 MILLION Americans then? Why are you not advocating the elimination of GunFree Zones?

        - Jeremy Leochner: “5: I am serious about self defense. The proposed bill does not ban hand guns or shot guns or rifles.”

        You are most certainly not serious because when you list the ways you want people to defend themselves you always avoid telling them of the best tool for defense

        - Jeremy Leochner: “The proposed bill does not ban hand guns or shot guns or rifles. Its got an ambiguous definition for assault weapon so I oppose it.”

        Well happy day. We have evidence that you might actually support the right of the people to keep and bear arms.

        - Jeremy Leochner: “However I recognize the proposal for what it is. I know that a hand gun with a ten shot capacity or a scary looking rifle with even a seven shot capacity is plenty effective for self defense of ones home or person. In circumstances like these mobs which I believe are rare yes perhaps a gun with a larger shot capacity would be handy. However I do not base my beliefs on the most unlikely possibility. I support self defense based on what is more likely to happen, not less. Call me not serious or foolish. I call myself practical and reasonable.”

        I would actually call you practical and reasonable except that you clearly want to force everyone else to do it YOUR way.

  • ramhorn

    I will not be taking a trip to NY ever again if at all possible in fact I can’t think of any reason to visit any state that is anti 2nd amendment. These kinds of mobs are going to continue and become more popular by a generation of degenerates who believe they are owed something by society and trust me we haven’t seen anything yet. Just wait till the checks and benefits stop and they will eventually, the system is broken and no one has the balls to say we can’t keep borrowing our way into the future. Good Luck to any of you that can’t get out of these commie states (because that’s exactly what this crap is modeled after, pull out your history books and then call me a liar). Shame on any of you who voted this crap back.

    • 45caliber

      ramhorn:

      I live in TX thank God and I don’t intend to go to any state like NY, MS, CA, or any other state that is anti-gun. The same with other countries. The way I feel is that if you want the freedom to attack me or mine then I should have the freedom to stop you. Consequences are a bitch when you do something wrong. The criminals and the libs don’t want to face consequences.

  • http://midcontent ridge runner

    LIstening and reading anything a Libertoid/communist democraps has tried to do to USA citizens and wanting to do away with the Constistution. This proves of how damn stupid these living abortations are as they want to only make laws with dreamed up BS to fit their mind set. The nut job that started shooting up the mall in Orgen proved what a stupid brain dead idea of gun free laws and limited gun ownership, when a CC didn’t follow the idea of locking up your guns would keep us all safe. The one armed citizen unholstered his gun, and the dog dung socialist went around the corner and taste tested his gun.

  • Mark

    How long are we going to put up with the potus flash mob in Washington stealing our freedoms?
    Vote the sob’s out of office and lets get our country back on track

  • Tonto

    We need a nicer class of criminal and thugs.

    Remember our veterans.
    All gave some; some gave all.
    Rest in peace my brothers.

    “Among the many misdeeds of the British rule in India, history will look upon the act of depriving a whole nation of arms, as the blackest.” — Mohandas Ghandi, An Autobiography, Part V, Chapter XXVII, page 446.

    911 may take a few minutes to reach your house. My AR15 responds at 3,200 feet per second.

    “The art of taxation consists in so plucking the goose as to obtain the largest possible amount of feathers with the smallest possible amount of hissing.” – Jean Baptiste Colbert (1619-1693), French economist and Minister of Finance under King Louis XIV

    “The very atmosphere of firearms anywhere and everywhere restrains evil interference they deserve a place of honor with all that is good.” — George Washington

    “The best we can hope for concerning the people at large is that they be properly armed.” — Alexander Hamilton

    “The Constitution shall never be construed….to prevent the people of the United States who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms.” — Samuel Adams

    “The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants.” — Thomas Jefferson

  • Tonto

    We need a nicer class of criminals and thugs.

    Remember our veterans.
    All gave some; some gave all.
    Rest in peace my brothers.

    “Among the many misdeeds of the British rule in India, history will look upon the act of depriving a whole nation of arms, as the blackest.” — Mohandas Ghandi, An Autobiography, Part V, Chapter XXVII, page 446.

    911 may take a few minutes to reach your house. My AR15 responds at 3,200 feet per second.

    “The art of taxation consists in so plucking the goose as to obtain the largest possible amount of feathers with the smallest possible amount of hissing.” – Jean Baptiste Colbert (1619-1693), French economist and Minister of Finance under King Louis XIV

    “The very atmosphere of firearms anywhere and everywhere restrains evil interference they deserve a place of honor with all that is good.” — George Washington

    “The best we can hope for concerning the people at large is that they be properly armed.” — Alexander Hamilton

    “The Constitution shall never be construed….to prevent the people of the United States who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms.” — Samuel Adams

    “The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants.” — Thomas Jefferson

  • Tonto

    We need a better class of criminals and thugs.

    Remember our veterans.
    All gave some; some gave all.
    Rest in peace my brothers.

    “Among the many misdeeds of the British rule in India, history will look upon the act of depriving a whole nation of arms, as the blackest.” — Mohandas Ghandi, An Autobiography, Part V, Chapter XXVII, page 446.

    911 may take a few minutes to reach your house. My AR15 responds at 3,200 feet per second.

    “The art of taxation consists in so plucking the goose as to obtain the largest possible amount of feathers with the smallest possible amount of hissing.” – Jean Baptiste Colbert (1619-1693), French economist and Minister of Finance under King Louis XIV

    “The very atmosphere of firearms anywhere and everywhere restrains evil interference they deserve a place of honor with all that is good.” — George Washington

    “The best we can hope for concerning the people at large is that they be properly armed.” — Alexander Hamilton

    “The Constitution shall never be construed….to prevent the people of the United States who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms.” — Samuel Adams

    “The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants.” — Thomas Jefferson

  • http://gravatar.com/bychoosing WTS/JAY

    Black Flash Mobs Wreak Havoc In New York City!

    Where are the police here? Should the owners of these newsstands and convenience stores be allowed to arm themselves for protection?

    Watch the disturbing video below:

    http://www.westernjournalism.com/black-flash-mobs-wreak-havoc-in-new-york-city/

  • GINSU of Brooklyn

    FICTIONAL SCRIPT: A HOLLYWOOD MOVIE OPENS AS A MOB ATTACKS YOUR STORE: Have a huge, exremely sharp damascus steel edged weapon and start swingin’. Go for center mass and above. Once the cretins realize they are being randomly hacked, it causes panic and with it disorganized fleeing. This in turn causes pileups at the exits where you can contine ornery dismemberment. Plunge the weapon directly into the sxxxpile for any which remain. Detailing the remains by excising genitalia, eyes, noses cut flat, blade into the anuses, etc., assures the flash has gone out of the mob.

  • http://gravatar.com/bychoosing WTS/JAY

    Police scramble to fight flash-mob mayhem…Check out interview with police in the video below.

    http://www.cnn.com/2011/US/08/18/flashmobs.police/index.html

  • Smithkowitz

    First of all, you cannot shoot people just because they are stealing from you. Your life must feel threatened. So, does a flash mob make your life feel threatened, if they are not attacking you, how are you threatened? These will be the sort of questions that would have to be answered after you injured 5, 10, 15 or so people with any weapon of any magazine capacity. You cannot fire warning shots, that is considered intimidation. The only real answer to Flash Mobs are cameras that get clear pictures and police doing their job. I am not anti-2nd Amendment. just trying to keep good people out of jail for murder or attempted murder. After all, if you lose your stuff it’s one thing (that’s what insurance is for), if you lose your business, family and life behind bars, it’s a whole different story.

  • http://Personallibertydigest Bernard Ovverstreet

    eddie .According to crime statistics from Obamas Chicago 91.2% of the gun felons prosecuted in Chicago were not found guilty. This would indicate that either the police and the courts in Obamas Chicago are very inept or there is some collusion there. The Nazis used the criminals and the homosexuals to destabilize the country. Once they were in power they had no use for these people any more and murdered them. Is there a similarity to the nazis and the democrats or am I just seeing things.

    • GINSU of Brooklyn

      Always wondered why we stockpile prisoners, especially if they have comitted the same type of crime two or more times. You seem to have answered my curiosity: release them and turn them on the citizens AND THE SYSTEM WHICH IMPRISONED THEM. Then, simply kill them. Kiddy diddlers arise!

  • Ranchman

    Bloomberg and his minions couldn’t care less about the people, it’s about control. When are the people going to realize that they hold the power in this country? We have the ability to tell these lame*ss politicians to get bit! By not complying with illegal, unconstitutional mandates like gun control, the people would send one very powerful message to lawmakers…enough is enough! How many millions of us would they imprison? If they did imprison millions of us, the revolution would be on!

    Remember 1776 & Keep Your Powder Dry!

  • http://PersonalLibertyDigest Just Tim

    Sandy Creek! Sandy Creek! The same day Obama shed his tears, he also killed seven children on the other side of the world by a drone strike. I can’t recall seeing a list of names of those killed at Sandy Creek or the names of those children blown to bits. I ask myself why? Ask not what your country can do to you, ask what you can do to your country. What if a highly trained Karate expert were to kill, let’s say three people in a “do-or-die “fight, would a ban arise where one can only fight back using one fist and leg? These self-defence artforms were born from peasants trying to protect themselves after Kings, Warlords, and Goverments outlawed weapons. Where does one draw a line, be it gun control or free speech? To thy own self be true.

  • CHRIS

    leave us honest american gun owners alone!!!! Go after the real criminals!!! NUFF SAID!!!

    • http://www.facebook.com/jandeenphoto Jan Eric Deen

      What does one of those good honest gun owing folk look like anyway? Why is it
      “Nuff said.” The record of gun death and injury speaks for itself, as does the mass
      ignorance of those who think guns are the issue in a nuclear age.

    • http://N/A CintiCB

      Sorry Chris, but, this sounds too much like work. The LAST thing that our sincere, hard working POTUS wants (or knows how) to do is his job (work)!!!!!

  • Proteus1946

    FYI: The ‘concept’ of Flash Mobs have been around for a long time:
    In 1973, the story “Flash Crowd” by Larry Niven described a concept similar to flash mobs. With the invention of popular and very inexpensive teleportation, an argument at a shopping mall—which happens to be covered by a news crew—quickly swells into a riot. In the story, broadcast coverage attracts the attention of other people, who use the widely available technology of the teleportation booth to swarm first that event—thus intensifying the riot—and then other events as they happen. Commenting on the social impact of such mobs, one character (articulating the police view) says, “We call them flash crowds, and we watch for them.” In related short stories, they are named as a prime location for illegal activities (such as pickpocketing and looting) to take place.

    Just thought you’d like to know. Larry Niven is one of my favorite authors. I would suggest you start with “Neutron Star” (collection of short stories, 1968). This early story leads directly to “Ringworld” and the series of books based on it. Strange how some of Niven’s concepts have come true or are coming true. These stories were written decades before the Internet or ‘Social Media’ as we know it today.

  • Proteus1946

    “. . . the only thing we have to fear is . . fear itself – nameless, unreasoning, unjustified terror . . .”

    Franklin D. Roosevelt
    1st Inaugural Address
    March 4, 1933

    I am not afraid, Please stop being afraid for me. You’re coming about as close to whipping up a mob to violence as anything I have ever seen. Just read some of the responses to this latest fear mongering of yours.

    Oh, just FYI, here’s another quote for you:
    “If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it. The lie can be maintained only for such time as the State can shield the people from the political, economic and/or military consequences of the lie. It thus becomes vitally important for the State to use all of its powers to repress dissent, for the truth is the mortal enemy of the lie, and thus by extension, the truth is the greatest enemy of the State.”
    - – > Joseph Goebbels < – -

    Works as well for individuals as it does for governments.

    Have a good day!

  • http://www.facebook.com/jandeenphoto Jan Eric Deen

    By the same logic we should be shooting Bankers on the way to work and go Third World all the way. At least we might take out a few of those responsible for true crimes that the government will not address and we can claim the Charlie Bronson rule of law.

  • alboy5

    The police need to be mobilized. They just sit around twiddling their thumbs in their car or police station instead of patrolling. If they want to continue just sitting around doing nothing than reduce the useless police force by 99%.

  • Derrick Wndley carswell

    I have come to realize that when I moved here from Cary,N.C. I met a fine lady of my dreams and moved to Angier N.C. I got married even though I have a record from my past. Grew up on the streets of Durham,N.C. I love this country. I was raised by a war crazed soldier from Korean War. Tortured me teacing me to fight and to kill at a very young age. I had the knowlege of how to kill and refused to a few times because of the respect I have for human lives. I just got in fist fights with young kids while my sweet mother told me that God loved me, but the abuse I took from a evil drunk tortured every day. At first i let the kids beat me because it didn’t care. I knew it couldn’t hurt as bad as my hands twisted, slapped upside the head for no reason by my dad. i will be damned before I allow thugs to come into my house rob and kill me and my wife. The refusel of business owners to match our “working class” Social Security or take out taxes. Pay cash under the table has got big business fat or just fire you for a immagrent. I’ve been a housepainter for almost 40 years and when the migrant workers started taking my jobs because 10 dollars a hour to them is like 80 dollars a hour in Mexico!Make these greedy people pay taxes and help the poor to get fair treatment and especially people on Disability which is a joke. Pay the blue collar worker a deceint wage and make these greedy people help the hard working man doing jobs these fat cats wouldn’t dare do. People who sweat all day for a dollar and the really poor man that is starving on the street holding a sign because his family is living in the woods waiting and hoping for there next bite of food. Robbing these stores is the least of your problem. What about a home owner and 5 men with guns bust in rob and kill for his money? Who is going to protect us? YOU RICH FATCATS? Nope, run to the hills so you can hoard so much money that you and generations of your family got it made. Homelessness is LUDACRIS! As rich as America is nobody should be homeless! So sad! America ” the people in control should be ashamed of themselves” For always making poor people pay there bills off the sweat of their backs!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  • John Howard Burch II

    It is obvious that the deal makers had their sights set on taking our guns last year when Hillary met with the UN in behest of the Muslim Communist in the White House.

    We need to remove the true perpetrators in this picture, the elected officials and their appointees; however, DO NOT do it with weapons, that would make them martyrs and congeal the attitude in the populace.

    Do it through recall elections and by all means, get them out when they are up for re-election the next time if we can’t get them out of office before that.

  • Billy

    It seems there are some commenters missing the point. The point is, ” If folks know there are weapons in a store, they are less likely to form a flash mob and loot the store. Personally, I prefer to shop where guns are allowed. Having a gun ban is an open invitation to criminals.

    • BR549

      Thank you Billy for that moment of sanity. I’m sure the panty-wetting liberals will have a field day with it. I truly believe that the reason they don’t want others to have guns is because they don’t trust themselves with a gun and therefore, for that reason, no one else should have one.

      They won’t admit it, of course, because then they would have to expose their feeling of inadequacy in actually being able to make a stand when someone is raping their wife or coming at them in the middle of the night in their own bedroom. Having only a broomstick by their bedside is a far safer and socially acceptable risk to take than finding out that the intruder has a gun or a knife.

      If that kind of logic works for them, heck, give them all the posthumous Darwin Awards possible and get them out of the gene pool.

    • http://N/A CintiCB

      He has to reward his (ghetto ganger) voters. Anyway, it’s simply not PC to hold these wittle victims responsible for their actions!!! If a business owner does defend their (hard earned) business against these subhuman barbarians the NAANP will cry racism, sue, and the ghettones (you know, da victims) will have even more reason to get their ‘revenge’. Obama Bin Laudin is the only presidential possibility who urged his voters (lowest on societal rung) to vote for him to get their “revenge”. Revenge for what? Having to sit in their fat, food stamp fed, a$$es in their tax payer provided homes for an entire month to get wage earners’ money?

  • Kopf Jaeger

    Kopf Jaeger,
    Howdy y’all. I’m not much for writing comments. Basically because you guys, and gals, pretty much cover all the details as regards whatever the subject article is at the time.
    I do sometimes wonder why obvious ”Demuntists” bother to express their opinions in a conservative website. Do they actually think/believe they are going to change a conservative’s mindset? Personally, I’ve NEVER CHANGED a Left Leaning person’s opinion. I’d say it’s about as difficult as ”poking butter up a bobcat’s a$$.” Arguing about how many rounds a magazine holds is like ”picking the ”Fly $hit out of the Pepper.” If a person is law abiding, and without any felonies, they should be able to have an Abrams MI-A-2 Main Battle tank (assuming one could afford it, plus maintainence.) As I recall, the Government works for ”We The People.” That being said, if the government can have heavy weapons, then By God, so should ”We the People.” That’s what the 2nd Amendment says, and Means! It is NOT about skeet shooting or deer hunting! What word that’s in the 2nd Amendment do the Liberals NOT UNDERSTAND???!!!

    In 1776, a smooth bore muzzle-loading single-shot musket WAS an assault rifle. GET IT? Right. Fine. Here is some military trivia fer ya: Adolph Hitler was the first person to coin the phrase ”Assault Rifle.” After viewing the performance of the WW-II era weapon called by the designers ”MP-44” which was chambered in the Caliber 7.92mm X 33mm Kurz, Adolph Hitler renamed this rifle, which, by the way, could fire semi-automatic, or by a switch, fully automatic fire, the ”Sturm Gewehr” in other words, a light machine-gun, which, by the way are illegal unless one chooses to pay an annual fee to the B.A.T.F.E for a ”Class-III” License. Get it? Great!

    Regarding so called ”Flash Mobs” well, all I can say is : Use the minium force necessary to deal with the problem. Certainly, no sane person wants to kill another human being. But if said human being commits that sort of crime, then they should be prepared to pay the appropriate price.

    Of course I expect a lot of LEFTY critisism. Guess what? I don’t give a Damn! Liberals don’t get it, nor will they ever. They live in a bubble that apparently can’t be punctured.

  • MGAMBA

    Eddie47d wrote “Only the innocent were killed at Kent State, Only the the innocent were killed at Ludlow Mine . Only the innocent were killed in St Petersburg Square. Only the innocent were killed at Sand Creek. Only the innocent were killed at Bunker Hill.”

    Wow Eddie if you actually understood any of these events you should be a strong supporter of the Second Amendment and gun rights, because in all of these examples, except Bunker Hill, it was an armed government firing on unarmed individuals. Let’s go down the list shall we:

    Kent State (1970): Ohio National Guard (GOVERNMENT) firing on UNARMED students

    Ludlow Mine (1914): Colorado National Guard (GOVERNMENT) firing on UNARMED coal miners and their families

    St. Petersburg Square (1905): Russian Imperial Guard (GOVERNMENT) firing on UNARMED demonstrators

    Sand Creek (1864): Colorado Territory Milita under the direction of U.S. Army Colonel John Chivington (GOVERNMENT) firing on UNARMED indians.

    Can anyone see the pattern here? Anyone? Anyone? Let’s see – is it that armed government forces fired on an unarmed population – hmmm? Perhaps if the population in each case was armed then the events may not have occurred. Or at least the population would have had an opportunity to defend themselves.

    This brings up Bunker Hill (1775). In this case, armed colonial forces (otherwise known as armed civilians) fought a military battle with the British troops, who were at the time (GOVERNMENT). Although the British won the Battle of Bunker Hill, they did suffer heavy losses.

    So Eddie47d, I would suggest that next time, before you get your little liberal panties all in a twist about something, maybe you should try gathering a little knowledge on the subject before you blurt out something and prove to the world your utter lack thereof. Oh, but wait, that’s how Obama got elected isn’t it – a bunch of absolute morons and idiots buying the MSM’s BS without the intellect to recognize it for the BS that it is.

  • http://www.facebook.com/joelscopeland Joel Copeland

    @TML: Okay, you think that innocent people will be killed if a store owner tries to protect it (using deadly force) from a flash mob. You are probably correct in that assumption. However, the mandate comes down to the cops: Do your job and protect the businesses which pay your salaries via taxes. If they refuse due to PC policies or sheer laziness, then what right do they have to arrest a business owner who fires into a howling, raging mob that is bent on theft and destruction? Point the finger back at your beloved “criminal justice system” before you condemn a business owner; a person who has the right to pursue life, liberty, and happiness without the fear of either a useless/corrupt government or collective, destructive thieves.

  • Tonto

    Some shotguns hold more than seven! I am glad I don’t live in NY or CA.

    Too many people, too much traffic traffic and gangs are a recipe for disaster.

  • Tonto

    http://godfatherpolitics.com/9423/robbery-victims-shooting-attackers-called-alarming-trend/

    Why doesn’t this get national coverage? When a 70 year old coach and reserve officer shoots two young thugs, that seems newsworthy. It involves kids, guns and schools!

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