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Wisconsin Vote Stuns The Left

June 8, 2012 by  

Wisconsin Vote Stuns The Left
UPI
Wisconsin Governor Scott Walker defeated Democrat Tom Barrett 53 percent to 46 percent.

It’s been amusing to hear all the liberal talking heads on TV trying to claim that Tuesday’s vote in Wisconsin was no big deal. My friends, it was a very big deal indeed. In fact, it just may mark the beginning of the end of union power in this country.

Let’s be very clear about what was at stake in this election. It wasn’t just about ending collective bargaining for government employees. It wasn’t even about how much of their pay union members should contribute for their pensions or their healthcare. While these issues are important, they pale in comparison to what really mattered.

The paramount issue was whether the government could force someone to belong to a union in order to hold a job and deduct union dues from his pay without giving him any say in the matter.

Governor Scott Walker and a Republican majority in the Wisconsin Legislature ended that sweetheart deal for public-sector unions in the State. The results have been catastrophic for the bully boys (and girls) of collective bargaining.

Once the law went into effect, no State employee could be forced to join a union in order to hold a job. Dues would no longer be deducted automatically; employees had to specifically request the deduction of union dues from their paychecks.

Given a choice, guess what happened? Tens of thousands of former union members said “no thanks.” As a result, union membership and dues fell like a safe being dropped out of a window.

The American Federation of State, County and Municipal Employees (AFSCME) is the second-largest public-sector union in Wisconsin. The largest is the National Education Association.

Prior to the passage of the Walker reforms, AFSCME had 62,818 members in Wisconsin. Six months after the new law took effect, the number had declined to just 28,745 dues-paying members. In other words, once they weren’t forced to be union members, more than 50 percent headed for the doors.

Bryan Kennedy, the president of the American Federation of Teachers in Wisconsin, said that failure to recall Walker “spells doom” for his union. Let’s hope he’s right.

None of this should come as a surprise. Time after time and in State after State, whenever right-to-work laws have replaced compulsory union membership, the results have been the same: More and more workers refuse to support unions. As President Barack Obama’s team will tell you, it takes a heck of a lot of “community organizing” to make up the difference.

Fifty years ago, more than half of the blue-collar workers in America were members of a union. Today, only 7 percent of private-sector employees are union members. That is what happens when people are given a choice. A huge percentage of them will choose to keep the money they earn, rather than let some ham-fisted organization spend it — allegedly on their behalf.

Get government involved and the results are dramatically different. The percentage of government employees who belong to a union is about 37 percent. The total number of union members has skyrocketed, thanks to the explosive growth of government at Federal, State and local levels.

Walker won the Governorship in 2010 by promising to bring some fiscal sanity to Wisconsin, which was facing a $3 billion deficit. To do that, he said that union members would have to start contributing “their fair share.” (Sound familiar?)

His “5 and 12” plan called for government employees to pay more for their lavish pensions and their generous healthcare plans. Under the Walker proposal, contributions to the pension plans would climb to 5.8 percent of their pay. This was still a sweetheart deal compared to what private-sector workers get. Most of the latter have no pension whatsoever; those who do contribute, on average, a lot more than 5.8 percent of their pay toward their retirement.

Healthcare is even more expensive. The average private-sector worker pays 21 percent of the premiums for his or her coverage; government employees in Wisconsin paid just 6 percent of the costs of their health insurance, or less than one-third as much. The Walker plan would double that figure to 12.6 percent — still a bargain by almost any measure.

Union members in Wisconsin went absolutely ballistic at the thought of having to dig into their own pockets so much. Tens of thousands of them marched on the State Capitol in Madison, in a sort of local “Occupy” movement. When that wasn’t enough to intimidate the Legislature, 14 Democratic Senators fled the State. Yep, they high-tailed it to Illinois, so there wouldn’t be enough voters left in Madison to form a quorum.

That standoff lasted for a while. When a vote was finally taken, the Walker proposals passed handily. Union officials and their Democratic allies immediately launched a highly publicized petition movement to demand a recall of Walker, his Lieutenant Governor and four Republican State Senators. Thousands of union volunteers poured into the State. They ended up collecting more than 900,000 signatures for the petition — way more than the 400,000 needed to force a special election.

On Tuesday, the unions and their Democratic allies got what they said they wanted: a chance for the public to vote “aye” or “nay” on the Walker reforms. After one of the most costly and divisive campaigns in State history, a record number of voters showed up at the polls.

Bless their hearts! They gave Walker an even bigger victory than they did in 2010, when he defeated Tom Barrett (yes, the same guy) by 5.5 percent of the votes cast. This time his victory was even bigger; he carried the State by 53 percent to 46 percent.

Let’s not forget that other Governors, including Mitch Daniels in Indiana and Chris Christie in New Jersey, have seen their popularity soar the more they have challenged teachers and other union members.

By the way, I suspect Obama’s pollsters had a much better idea of what was going to happen in Wisconsin than the number crunchers at CNN. How else can you explain Obama’s invisibility in what was clearly going to be one of the most important pre-November elections this year?

Oh, sure, Obama issued a lukewarm endorsement of Barrett from the safe confines of the White House. But when it came time to press the flesh and energize the crowds in Wisconsin, the President was nowhere to be seen. Nor was Vice President Joe Biden.

Remember, Obama and Biden carried the State handily in 2008. Afterwards, the Veep told an enthusiastic crowd of union loyalists, “We owe you!” Sure thing, buddy. But not enough to risk getting some egg on their faces this time around.

Does Walker’s stunning victory mean that Wisconsin is “in play” for Romney this fall? Time will tell. But in the meantime, is that a groundswell I hear saying “Walker for VP?”

Until next time, keep some powder dry.

–Chip Wood

Chip Wood

is the geopolitical editor of PersonalLiberty.com. He is the founder of Soundview Publications, in Atlanta, where he was also the host of an award-winning radio talk show for many years. He was the publisher of several bestselling books, including Crisis Investing by Doug Casey, None Dare Call It Conspiracy by Gary Allen and Larry Abraham and The War on Gold by Anthony Sutton. Chip is well known on the investment conference circuit where he has served as Master of Ceremonies for FreedomFest, The New Orleans Investment Conference, Sovereign Society, and The Atlanta Investment Conference.

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  • simian pete

    Chip,

    You know what happens when you have a mixed workplace ? It’s war ! It’s total competition like you probably have never experienced Chip ! Quite frankly – it’s GREAT !
    Chip, you need to take a vacation ! Get a job as a lower manager/supervisor (non-union) in one of them Wisconsin state offices for like 6 months ! IT WILL BLOW YOUR MIND ! HA HA !!!! Watch the fireworks erupt between the two groups ! Production definitely will go up !!!

    No more featherbedding !! EVERYONE HAS TO WORK HARD !! The individual Union members won’t get a pay raise for working harder. They are locked into their contract pay rate !!! HA HA HA !!! Work harder you lazy Union asses !!!!

    Then you have the Non-Union workers – the ones who left the Union ! They don’t have any Union dues deducted from their paychecks anymore. They are considered “traitors” by the Union members – much RESENTMENT !! EVERY FREAKIN’ DAY they are reminded of being a traitor … IT”S GREAT ! MAKES THE FORMER UNION MEMBERS WORK EVEN HARDER ! THEY DON’T HAVE ACCESS TO A UNION STEWARD FOR GRIEVANCES !! HA HA HA !!! They are scared to death of losing their jobs ! What a good motivator !!! Better bring the defibrillators. Time to take some CPR courses at the local YMCA …

    I think most of the former Union Members are in for a surprise. WELCOME TO THE REAL WORLD !!!! Nothing like total competition in the work environment !!! The Governor has done a good job !!!

    • http://www.facebook.com/merle.burbaughjr Merle Burbaugh Jr

      Perhaps we need to go back to no Unions at all in Government like it should be. Neither the Government nor Union has any vested interest in profit or productivity so only the taxpayer gets screwed.

      • rb

        After 21 years of working for the government in a union job I learned there is a benificial place for unions when you are working for what would otherwise and still is a tyranical mis management force as we had in the government. Without the union we would have been working for minimum wage, 12 hours a days, 7 days a week, with no holidays, pension or health insurance. In those 21 years the management tried very hard to go that direction. Unfortunately the current workers are subjected to some of the worst workplace abuse I have ever seen in a company. Management regulary violates contract obligations on a local and national level and the union sits by and watches as dues paying members are suspended and even fired for minor things. There is no 40 work week. Overtime is mandatory and hourly workers are required to work 6 days per week. All this while those who run the union and live in Washington DC enjoy salaries of at least 2 times what the people they “reprisent” make and refuse to disclose what their “benefit” packages contain and cost the dues paying members. (Little things like complete payment of all housing expenses and a chaufer driven car) At this point the union bosses are so busy lining their pockets with contributions from politicians they have forgotten who they reprisent in this particular government operation. At one time the unions were a good thing and served a great purpose. Now it seems they are serving no one but themselves and the top brass. They no longer work for the both the worker and the company’s benefit but sell themselves to the highest bidder like a polititician or prostitute. (Hmm kind of the same thing I guess)

        • Kevin Beck

          I need to ask one question: Before you got the union involved in your government workplace, did your job require you to work 12 hours a day, 7 days a week, only to be paid minimum wage, with no pension or holidays?

          If it did, then you were one of the lucky ones that was rescued; if not, then your comment is senseless.

      • Dennis48e

        Kevin Beck, rb’s comments are pretty much useless anyway. First he says unions are the greatest thing since dirt then he says they do nothing for the workers they are supposed to represent.

      • 2¢ worth…

        He said NOW! Now the unions are as corrupt (as politics) and he’s spot on. I worked for minimum wages at several jobs but I wasn’t made to work 12 – 14 hours a day, 6 – 7 days a week.. I had to volunteer for it in order to make ends meet.. Then the union came on (as each employee voted) and the pay was equal to the work and many of us were happy to work 40 hours a week 5 days as it opened the door to more workers and for decades we enjoyed our jobs as the owners enjoyed our production, then as is always present where humans are concerned, the unions became lax, raised dues and literally told us who to vote for.. I predict that when the unions are no more THAT’S when the corporate toads will pass laws where we all once again will be working under their thumbs for peanuts.. Will we be happy that the unions are no more? Possibly but then (even as they grew and their mode changed) we will have no advocate to tell the toads ‘fair pay for fair work’.. Will it be worth it? Well, I have to agree, it certainly seems so at this point in time but as for our children’s future? It would be a miracle if the big frogs suddenly grew a heart and treated their workers as an asset instead of a commodity for their financial ends.

        • Liberty Lover

          You guys with your “fair pay for a fair day’s work”! Don’t you understand that this is set by the marketplace (despite your wishes to have “fair” determined by an Obama “Fairness Czar”). An employer who doesn’t pay a valued worker a fair wage risks losing that worker to another employer. Judging from my experience in the world (and on blogs such as this), 30% to 40% of workers consider themselves fairly paid and the rest deem themselves underpaid. The truth is that most union workers in industrial America were overpaid 40-50 years ago for easily learnable skills, which is why those jobs no longer exist in the US.

    • ROB

      unions gave us 40 hour work weeks so next weekend when you are deing a lazy scab thank a union member, dummy make less give the ceo 110 times the average wage you all sound like corporate suck pump

      • Grammy

        Unions have been beneficial in our history and still are in some industries, mainly for safety of the workers. Private sector unions are not affected by the changes in Wisconsin at all, just public sector unions. The reasoning behind denying government workers collective bargaining is that the taxpayer doesn’t sit on the other side of the table yet are required to foot the bill. That’s quite different from a private sector employer sitting down to negotiatate with a union. The big difference for the public worker is they they now have a choice about giving their wages to a union, and many have chosen not to, as would I if I still worked in the government position I retired from. (As for the “cadillac” retirement for state employees, my monthly retirement check after 22 years comes $100 short of paying for my monthly health insurance.) Still, all employees should contribute to their retirement plans.

      • Vigilant

        Union lackey ROB says, “unions gave us 40 hour work weeks.”

        Yes, and they gave us incompetent, dumbed down, socialist programmed teachers who cannot be fired without embroiling taxpayers in court suits costing hundreds of thousands of dollars. They gave us organizations that collect dues from members of all political persuasions and then use those dues to contribute to Democrat candidates only.

        According to Milton Friedman, “The president of the National Education Association was once asked when his union was going to do something about students. He replied that when the students became members of the union, the union would take care of them.”

      • Vigilant

        Not to forget that unions gave us cushy teacher/administrator pay and pension plans that consume 75-80% of each school budget, the growth of which has school districts reeling from the effects. Property taxes to support such profligacy are killing property owners here in NY, and with federal/state funds drying up, no relief is in sight.

      • JeffH

        vigilant, I fully agree with you. I’ve been active and represented both sides of that aisle, union and management. I’ve represented both sides of in complaints filed with the NLRB. In 1969, the company I was working for was wage abusive and the employees could be fired without cause…we needed strong representation. I was very active throught the process, became well respected within the hierarchy of the ILWU and the company, and we did help Bio-Rad Laboratories become a better company and workplace. It was needed and it worked. Forward 15 years and the very same union with the very same organizers attempted and succeeded in organizing the labor in our coffee warehouse. It was already a fair workplace, although less than 5 years old, with escalating benefits and twice yearly wage increases…but, a couple of lazy employees thought they needed “protection”. They won the battle to organize but ultimately lost the war. The union reps whom I had cavorted with and impressed at Bio-Rad now looked at me as a virus, a manager, the enemy. The employees were the losers and the “lazy disgruntled” employees ended up losing their jobs…because they didn’t pay their union dues!

        The tale is that I experienced both the good and the bad of the union, and I can say that without the union I became far more successful with my job growth because I had totake responsibility and work hard for my rewards, and that’s what I did.

        Unions have had their day but, in general, the average worker is content to be mediocre whithin the union structure because they have no incentive to excel.

        My hats off to Gov. Walker and the people of Wisconsin have spoken. This is a big blow to public unions, the SEIU and the AFL/CIO, one that is dearly needed. Look for the unons to really start fighting for their existance. Socialism and communism is in the hearts of these unions.

      • DaveH

        Rob says — “unions gave us 40 hour work weeks”.
        No, Rob, Unions didn’t give us 40 hour work weeks. Shorter workweeks were evolving naturally as capitalism provided more productivity, higher wages, and cheaper products.
        But Unions did CONFINE us to 40 hour work weeks. For instance, I wanted to work 4 ten-hour days when I was young and working at a cement plant. The company said it would be okay with them but they were bound by the Union Contract which mandated 8 hour days. I didn’t want to be in the Union but it was a closed shop and I had no choice.
        A high school teacher predicted we would have 32 hour workweeks soon in the late 60s, but alas it never came to pass thanks to Unions and Socialism:
        http://mises.org/freemarket_detail.aspx?control=511

      • DaveH
      • UWorlds1

        I agree…it’s seems the average joe says nothing about a CEO making 1 million a year to drive a company into the ground but will bitch about a worker making a living wage. Go figure.

      • DaveH

        The difference, UWorlds1? The company owners think the CEO is generating a return on their investment that is worth his/her salary. The Unionists, instead of being happy to have a job since they don’t have the initiative to run their own business, want to coercively take that money whether there are others happily willing to take their places or not.

        • UWorlds1

          Everyone does not have the aptitude or the inclination to be a business owner…that is not to say they do not add value to the corporation or small business. You have to know how to be a good follower to be a good leader.

      • http://gravatar.com/catman11 coalminer

        Amen Rob.I agree!

      • Patty

        UWorldsOne – If you don’t have the drive, ambition, aptitude to own, start, run your own business, than why would you feel entitled to someone elses’ drive, ambition, aptitude? You contribute to the company for “X” amount is something you agreed to when hired. And then, after you get in, you feel you are entitled to more than you agreed to? If you don’t want to take the risk, which is fine, why should you get more of the spoils when you were not willing to take the risk? Where does your entitlement attitude come from?
        What does UWorldsOne mean to you? Are you for losing our constitution and becoming a One world, global nation? Just wondering.

      • Patty

        UWorlds1 says – Just because you add something to the company does not give you a “right” to any part of it or any guarantees. The problem with your thought process, is that they could hire someone else to do your job with the same or better result. The owner on the other hand is the risk taker, and to them go the spoils, plus you can’t do what they can do or you would be doing it. With your analogy it would be like you hiring someone to come and put in a patio, pool and deck and then them expecting to use it and come to all of the parties, because they contributed to the equity/improvement of your home. There are people who think up the bridge (entrepreneurs), people who design the bridge (engineers) and then people to build the bridge (worker bees). It is your choice which one of those categories you wish to be in. Steve Jobs invented Apple, he had engineers design the product and software and he has worker bees assembling them.

      • flipperj

        and your a union suck pump

    • Jim

      You see it all the time in N.Y. Several public union members hanging around, 3 trucks running, and one shovel, pathetic! They don’t even try and hide it which is even more pathetic, it’s like being spat in the face. Cuomo need to grow a pair of stones or get the hell out of office, 10 billion dollar debt and growing. Hey Cuomo, stop the yealy Tax Capping and start Tax Cutting, I’m sick of being milked like a cow, now get your hand off me before I kick ya!

      • Sam

        The need for unions has long since passed. We are no longer a nation made up primarily if worker bees, Most workers have enough sense to look out for themselves and make their own decisions. The time has come to get these bullies out of our schools and government. They have inflated government and education cost to astronomical levels while education and local governments have gone to seed. Vote for Romney and Republicans at all levels of government. Restore our economy and reclaim our nation!

      • Nadzieja Batki

        The question is why did the workers not take care of their own interests but put themselves at the mercy of messiah wannabes called the union bosses?

      • eddie47d

        There are still companies out there that treat their employees poorly and unions may be needed. There may well be some greedy unions but nothing in comparison to greedy members of the Elite establishment and CEO’s. The high cost of paying for their salaries and bonuses also comes down on each and every one of us. Higher education is not union either and professors and administrators make outlandish wages. Union teachers only make a fraction of what those administrators make so correct the problem from the top.

      • DaveH

        Sam,
        The need for Unions never existed. It was purely Union Propaganda that people were forced into sweatshop labor and had no other choices:
        http://mises.org/daily/2384

    • Warrior

      I often wonder how such a benevolent gubmint could mistreat it workers. For those of you that are convinced the gubmint provides all the right answers, why in the world would these “public” workers require representation? As i WATCH YOU CHASE YOUR TAILS, PLEASE EXPLAIN.

      • DaveH

        Don’t expect consistency from Progressives, Warrior.

    • Armen Kartvelian

      What’s the point of a public sector union? Working conditions? Already covered by OSHA insofar as safety is concerned. Compensation? If civil service, there are grades and steps. Health insurance? Only the amount of the employee’s contribution. Far too low to be sustainable. Retirement? That’s where the public sector unions have made out like bandits and why so many government entities — municipalities, school boards, states, etc., are in such financial trouble.

      If a mixed shop becomes a battle ground, who are the aggressors? We keep hearing about “fair share.” How about “fair play?” Must union members behave like spoiled children if their fellow employees choose not to belong to their union? Why not behave like adults and try to persuade their colleagues to join or rejoin the union.

      Even Franklin Roosevelt (1937 letter) was against public sector unions.

    • Rsgoeman

      I learned 40 years ago the unions ( like the IBEW) only care that the dues are paid. The union reps never help a person shafted by the lead person on an assembly line.

      • Patty

        RsGoeman – Don’t most union members pick on each other? Kind of from the top down like a hen pecking order?

    • Don

      Most union are relics of the past that should be allowed to die. There really isn’t a need for unions today except in a few industries. And, as for public service unions, they are a joke.
      They are the only unions where one elects one’s boss (politicans).

      • UWorlds1

        And corporations that get huge tax breaks also give to politicians. And then they turn around and lower wages and give no benefits. And it’s all legal.

        • Kevin Beck

          What “tax breaks” are you referring to that businesses get? And what does this have to do with the voting in Wisconsin?

          • UWorlds1

            Why do you think corporation lobby for lower tax rates..that’s more money in their pockets. Plus they get all kinds of ‘incentives’ from the government. Diane Hendricks (one of Walker’s biggest donors) received millions of dollars from the government via government contracts. They say they want the government out of the way all the time taking from the government. They just don’t want the little guy getting anything from the government. ABC corporation would not be what it is today with government handouts. Now that they don’t need government money they don’t want to pay taxes.

          • Kevin Beck

            What “tax breaks” are you referring to? Or do you have a convoluted definition of what a tax break is?

            Lower tax rates? That’s to ensure that everyone is entitled to keep more of what they earn! Only a statist or a socialist would have the view that wealth is created by the government, and that it’s government’s job to determine how much of one’s income (which is not the same as wealth) that one is permitted to keep.

            Regarding the political contributions of one person to Walker’s campaign: What makes that different than the labor unions collecting dues from members and using those dues to cycle back to the campaigns of members of the Democrat party? Labor unions are just acting in their best interests; how’s that different from a business owner contributing to someone promising to look out for his (or her)?

            I will give you some credit for one good line of thinking: Businesses (not limited to corporations) do lobby for “protection” for their goods and services. Before 1998, Microsoft never had a lobbyist in Washington, DC. Then they get hit with an antitrust investigation from the Justice Department. After the investigation concluded, they suddenly hired a lobbyist to participate in that “protection” racket. They were a target for their so-called monopolistic practices, and they didn’t have a Washington lobbyist to “look out for their interests.” At the time, they didn’t need one; they let their success in the marketplace work for them. Now they have one, as a means of protection.

            The biggest problem is that the Federal government contributes over 20% of all the spending (GDP) in the country. This is why reduction of government spending is required: It would reduce the need for the government “protection” racket.

          • UWorlds1

            The problem is corporations ARE taking government funds but are giving nothing back. If you have success in America you can’t take the government handout and then say you don’t believe in paying taxes.

          • UWorlds1

            And one thing about Microsoft…they were a monopoly and they did bundle services which made it hard for other companies to be competitive. I know I worked help desk for many years. Businesses will do anything if they can get away with it.

        • Liberty Lover

          Vote with your feet and get a better job! FWIW, unemployment won’t be dramatically reduced until prevailing wages decline to market-clearing levels. The unfortunate truth is that most lower and mid-level American workers are not well adapted to compete in an increasingly global economy.

    • Nanna Gail

      Simian Pete: You are partly right. I came from a unionized country when I immigrated here, so I can tell you first hand. It IS “like” a war, when you have union and NON union employees, but, it doesn’t make the non union members work HARDER than the union members, because the non union members work at the same pace as the union memmbers, so What it does, is cause “strikes”, and then the whole country is held to ransom.

      • simian pete

        Nanna Gail,

        It could go that way – like you said, the non-union workers go at the same pace as the slow union workers. Anything can happen ! It’s a Dynamic Scenario ! Great to Watch and Analyze !

        What I’ve seen (in a closed shop) is upper management finds out some Union Workers don’t want to pay dues anymore. Then upper Management hires industrial/employee relations experts and/or attorneys to start busting the Union (IE like Jackson & Lewis etc.) . Management gets some really good advice from “Human Resource Relations” consultants (IE “Union Busting Consultants”)….

        The Union Workers who hate paying dues, volunteer to start a petition drive to open the shop. They really don’t like paying them dues to the Union ! They feel they can do better. They also think they will get some “brownie points” from the managers. That somehow upper management won’t lay them off , write them up, nor suspend them.

        Y’know, it comes down to money. People are funny about their own money. These Union Workers who don’t want to pay dues – they are not bad people !!! Their isn’t any need for Union Services in their mind.

        Actually Grievance procedures can save MANAGEMENT MUCHO DINERO !! Why ? Because they won’t need to hire an ATTORNEY – IT ALSO SAVES the Union Member mucho dinero for the same reason … the Union Steward sits down and pretty much (sometimes informally) and gets things straightened out. A VERY INEXPENSIVE SOLUTION .

        But some MANAGEMENT are “funny about money” also and feel the Union isn’t needed … they aren’t bad people ! That’s money’s effect on people…..

        Y’know, Nanna Gail, in the end everyone is commiting economic suicide…. It’s like pre-programmed brainwashed humans jumping off a cliff – like a BAD CULT mentality….aka a anti-Union Feeding Frenzy among corporate sharks ! It’s great to watch ! When it’s all over it’s like an economic JONESTOWN, lower management is forced to drink the KOOL AID. It’s not SUGAR in that KOOL AID – IT’S CYANIDE ! HA HA HA!!!

        The Union due paying members sometimes lose. They get an open shop. The upper management may be benevolent and let the non-union workers be just as slow as their Union co-workers. Usually the big plan is to “decertify” the Union. It’s pretty much over for the Union. The Union Workers finally are “convinced” their is no difference and quit the Union. There is another vote and they (the Union) is gone !!

        Then upper management can really turn the heat up, hire and fire at will ! IT’S GREAT !!!!
        CUT EXCESSIVE PAY AND BENEFITS ! That’s one way the GAME is PLAYED. BYE BYE you bunch of cry babies !!! You just got to see it (I have) when the former Union workers, the ones who defected first, GET LAID OFF !!! HA HA HA !! Especially the ones who complained about paying Union dues and passed around the petitions to open the shop …. They are like “What Happen ?”. They can’t adjust to the harsh realities of the business jungle we all live in ….

        Next thing you know most of the job’s are eliminated (except upper management and a few very expereinced lower managers) and the work is outsourced/relocated to some low paid workers in another location ….

        Nothing wrong with this. That’s just how the game is played …….

  • Harold Olsen

    The left doesn’t seem to know just how pathetic and ridicules they are. When things like polls or votes go their way they talk about how important the vote or poll was. But, if a vote or poll goes against them, they call it meaningless and insignificant. When they were sure Walker would lose, they talked about how it would put the Republicans in their place and the Walker recall vote would be the most significant vote in the history of this country. Now they are saying it doesn’t mean a thing, Yet they are all sucking their thumbs and crying in their security blankets like the immature whining crybabies they are.

    • nc

      Harold, I’m from the “left” and I never though Walker would lose! He had enough votes to get elected and I figured he would have enough votes to avoid recall! You speak of the left “crying” and moaning and you post here????? Where the RIGHT pi$$e$ and moans every day because they don’t get to run the show?? They complain that the greatest nation in the world is not now nor has ever been “run right” except in the hands of conservatives! THE FACTS AND FIGURES PRODUCED BY THE ECONOMY DURING DEMOCRAT ( LEFT,SOCIALIST, MARXIST, COMMIE) ADMINISTRATIONS DON’T SAY THAT!!!! TRY “PRESIDENTS AND ROSPERITY” AT FORBES .COM , A CONSERVATIVE OWNED AND OPERATED MAGAZINE AND SEE THAT THE REPUBLICANS HAVE DONE LESS THAN THE DEMOCRATS HAVE TO GET US TO NUMBER ONE IN THE WORLD!

      It’s hard to “cry” with our man in the oval office and the country no longer losing 600,000 jobs a month and the stock market well above the “bush 6547″ mark!

      Wis. was a loss in Wis. but it may help with the middle class labor vote in other states. I find it hard to cheer when middle class workers lose ground in an election! I don’t know of a “1%er” who teaches school or picks up garbage.

      • Patty

        Please stop referring to gov’t. workers as middle class workers. They are not. A private sector person cannot legally collect retirement funds at the age of 53 like a gov’t. worker. A private sector worker does not have their healthcare paid by their employer once retired until they reach the age of 65. For a gov’t. worker to collect 75% of their high five average of 70k per year (52,500) a private sector person would have to have approx. 1 million dollars in investments earning approx 6% annually. 1 million dollars would put you up into the 1% bracket. So stop referring to gov’t. workers as middle class.

  • Doc Sarvis

    I don’t think the left is stunned, they were outspent $7 for every $1 they spent. Another Koch brothers victory (for the top 1%).

    • drewynp

      No troll, another victory for those of us who are sick of handing over our paychecks directly to the Democrat Party.

      • UWorlds1

        But now you have handed the state over to the Republican party. God help Wisconsin!! Get ready for $5.00/hr jobs.

      • Robert Smith

        Nope, it’s another example of the 1% buyinig an election. Most of the money cam from out of Wisconson.

        If you look IN Winsonson the folks who voted with money BEAT the oppressor.

        Rob

      • rb

        Hurray for the Koch brothers. At least they advocate working for a living. How dare they earn billions of dollars working. They should have to give that to the occupy people.

      • Vigilant

        UWorlds 1 says, “But now you have handed the state over to the Republican party.”

        So you see, the investment was worth it.

        But that’s not true anyway. Most likely, Wisconsin will vote for Obama in the election.

        The state has been handed BACK to the taxpayers, and that’s the most important thing.

      • eddie47d

        rb: Union members do work for a living so why are you so hell bent in taking away what they earned and negotiated for? Why should some billionaire come in and destroy someone else living wages. Maybe that is how the Koch’s made those billions by taking from others.

      • Deerinwater

        “At least they advocate working for a living. ” are you for real ?

        • UWorlds1

          Workers voting against their own interests…I guess they believe the republicans really want to create jobs..NEXT!! I can’t wait to see jobs being created in Wisconsin.

      • Vigilant

        “I can’t wait to see jobs being created in Wisconsin.”

        If you were up on current events, you’d know that they aready have been created.

        • Liberty Lover

          You are absolutely right, Vigilant. One idea that has essentially been ignored in this stream of comments is that Wisconsin, under Walker, is providing the model for tackling unemployment on a national basis. By forcing state union workers to accept modest scalebacks in their terms of employment, Walker was able to preserve tens of thousands of jobs, workers that would have been laid off in the absence of the reforms. How many workers, unionized or otherwise, have voluntarily offered to accept a modest reduction in their individual terms of employment so as to enable a company or public agency to avoid terminating the services of other workers? (I’ve seen a few relatively enlightened teacher unions do so, but not many.) Wisconsin’s unemployment rate under Walker is well below the national average.

      • eddie47d

        How many corporate CEOs have sacrificed for the State or even for their own company. Profits for them are record setting under Obama.They collect the loot but aren’t creating near the jobs that was expected of them. More false promises from Corporate interests.

    • Shane

      Good try Doc. But the actual spending on this campaing was only slighty over two to one when all monies were added up. But use the excuse of seven to one. It does not matter much cry baby. But do play again Doc. You are making a difference. Along with Flashy. More conservative converts are the result of dripping gums from the left, than what the right actually says. Observation. It’s a good thing, but usually takes some time. So keep up the good work Doc and Flashy and the other’s I’ve left off.

      • Doc Sarvis

        Who’s crying? I just pointed out why the left is not shocked. You read WAY too much into what you want to read rather than what is written.

      • Chester

        Shane, you better go back and look again, as even the Republicans admit they BOUGHT that election. Also, there were a LOT of people who saw no official misconduct to demand a recall, so they, too, voted against it. But, none the less, by far and away the largest part of the money came from outside interests who were running an anti-recall campaign long before they knew who they would be running against. You complain about liberals being blind to the TRUTH when your blinders are even more firmly in place.

      • Vigilant

        Sarvis says, “Who’s crying? I just pointed out why the left is not shocked.”

        Dream on….

      • Hey you

        As some say, the election was “bought”. If so, our “democracy” is a hollow shell which money can be used rather than voting.

        So much for democracy.

      • Vigilant

        Hey You, take an elementary civics course. We are NOT a democracy, never have been, We are a Republic, thanks to the Founders and their fear of tyranny of the majority. You know, like forcing the unwilling to pay dues in a closed or union shop.

      • DaveH

        Who’s crying, Doc? You were.
        And how about providing us some references for your 7 to 1 crying claim?

      • http://gravatar.com/smoovious Smoovious Laxness

        IMHO, we stopped being a republic when the states lost their representation in the US Senate.

        What we have now is basically 1 president, and 2 houses of representatives.

        Once the states have their representation back in the federal government, then we can talk about being a republic again.

        – Smoov

    • eddie47d

      So correct Doc. Over $63 million was spent in the Wisconsin election and more than $47 million of that came from Republican organizations including Americans for Prosperity (Koch , almost $4 million) and the Republican Governors Association. They pounded the state with ads and was awarded their pound of flesh. So no more talk about who buys elections and receiving out of state money because they are up to their nostrils this time. Walkers win is not necessary a bellwether since we heard crickets when the unions won in Ohio. In real life you have to accept your wins and losses and be patient until the next time.

      • GFelder3

        OK: arguing about how much was spent by whom, inside WI, outside, and forgetting about Obama’s huge advantage over McCain (which was presumably OK) WHY are these “now liberated” workers NOT staying in the unions? If the bennies were SO great, why are more than HALF the WI AFSCME workers NON-union now? I’m from PA, and I know tons of teachers, FORCED to be in their union, and simply hating the fact that THEIR money only goes to Dems for election, and they have no choice. Just wondering what is really happening in WI and for what reasons.

      • Vigilant

        Hey eddie, in love, war, and politics, turnabout is fair play.

        I will once again link to the TRUTH about who contributes the lion’s share of political money in this country, and to what political party it regularly goes.

        Care to comment on http://www.opensecrets.org/orgs/list.php ?

        BTW, I have NEVER been successful in eliciting a response to this link from the left, so I guess the figures are too damning to be assailable.

        Once again, care to comment about this eddie, or anyone else who feels that the poor unions got the short end of the stick? C’mon, “Doc,” Chester the Molester, Eric the Red, denniso, flashy, or anyone else who has the mettle.

      • Power To The People

        Eddie….the taxpayers are sick of funding over paid union complainers when they can’t fund their own retirement. That is the issue…not the BS about who spent more!

        Libs think money thrown on anything has to produce results….just like the war on poverty, HUD and all the other socialist programs that have bankrupted our nation.

      • eddie47d

        Power: Apparently Koch and company thought they could throw money at something ($47 million) and gain results and it worked. Why would you say union members are complainers when they are only defending what they rightfully negotiated for.

      • eddie47d

        Vigilant: Corporations give to who ever they think will give them the biggest bang for their buck. All your chart proves is that crony capitalism is alive and “well”. Didn’t have anything to do with unions??

      • JeffH

        Vigilant, always one step ahead of the talking heads.

        OpenSecret.org: “Heavy Hitters Top All-Time Donors, 1989-2012″

        Instead, I’ll just list a few examples:
        #3 – American Fedn of State, County & Municipal Employees – $47,977,038 – 92% Dem
        #5 – National Education Assn – $41,412,233 – 74% Dem
        #7 – SEIU – $38,237,146 – 75% Dem
        #9 – Intl Brotherhood of Electrical Workers – $35,233,775 – 96% Dem
        #10 -American Federation of Teachers – $33,615,766 – 87% Dem
        Seven of the next ten are all unions – 86% or higher to the Dems

        Koch Industries pales in comparison:
        #77 – Koch Industries – $12,733,249 – 90% Rep
        http://www.opensecrets.org/orgs/list.php?order=A

      • Vigilant

        eddie says, unbelievably. “All your chart proves is that crony capitalism is alive and “well”. Didn’t have anything to do with unions??”

        Thanks, JeffH, for showing that eddie’s blindness extends to inability to read charts. The number ONE activity on the chart was ActBlue, with a stunning $62.8 million in donations to, guess who, the Democrats, and ZERO to the Repuns. Who is ActBlue?

        “ActBlue bills itself as “the online clearinghouse for Democratic action.” As a federally registered political action committee, it serves as a conduit for online contributions to Democratic candidates and committees.” (http://www.opensecrets.org/orgs/summary.php?id=D000021806).

        eddie, there’s NO WAY anyone looking at the chart with intelligence can maintain that the Dems don’t get the bulk of political funding through PACs and labor unions.

      • Jana

        Eddie is so quick to point out over and ove I might add about the Koch Brothers. $47 million is a drop in the bucket to the $400 million George Soros has put up for the Socialists.

      • eddie47d

        Koch gave about $4 million to Walker and Soros gave nothing. The other $43 million was given by other Republican PACs. I believe we have a few others with reading comprehension problems (Jana). Vigilant is correct that ActBlue is a Democrat fund.

    • robowang

      I call BS on that.
      http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Journalism/2012/06/06/Media-Spin-Recall-As-Money-Suck
      And before you start whining about that being a” ‘right wing site”, it’s NOT the opinion, it’s the FACTS that matter.
      At least, to any sane person. Socialists? Eh, not so much.

      • DaveH

        What? The Kochs spent $1 million? But Eddie said they spent $4 million. Who to believe, lol?

      • eddie47d

        The Koch’s gave $1 million to Walker and another $3 million to the Republican Governors Associations to aid Walker. That equals $4 million. So who is to be believed…. Eddie of coarse. Dave is nothing but a trouble maker and a troll. They also gave money to ALEC to aid Walker so it could be more!

    • Linda Turner

      You’re right, Doc. Unions are the only protection workers have against Bosses. Forget overtime, paid vacation, sick leave, safety protections, health insurance. And if you don’t like those conditions, no problem; there’s a whole army people who will work for anything. And when these pawns of the 1% wonder where their rights went, they have only themselves to blame.

      • Vigilant

        “Pawns of the 1%?” Surely you jest.

        You might want to read the OP’s article with a little comprehension this time, i.e., “Today, only 7 percent of private-sector employees are union members. That is what happens when people are given a choice. A huge percentage of them will choose to keep the money they earn, rather than let some ham-fisted organization spend it — allegedly on their behalf.

        “Get government involved and the results are dramatically different. The percentage of government employees who belong to a union is about 37 percent.”

        Those “pawns” spoke with the quitting of their membership. Those “pawns,” and the taxpayers of Wisconsin, are the BIG winners.

        Then you say, “Unions are the only protection workers have against Bosses.” And who protects the taxpayers from the unions? Who protected the hundreds of potential workers in SC from the NLRB browbeating of Boeing when they wanted to build a plant there?

        And Linda, take an elementary mathematics course before you decide that 93% of private sector non-union and 63% of public sector non-union members are wrong.

      • Power To The People

        Linda, stop drinking the koolaid….I could agree if all workers were covered and/or unions did not waste their members money on political matters and use violence to get their way.

        We need the legislators to see to it the laws are improved and enforced…we don’t need more unions.

      • eddie47d

        “Power’: It’s a hard battle trying to keep up with a living wage so why aren’t you concerned about the Citizen United ruling that gave immense influence to those who already have the ability to do so. Those Elites already had the champagne market cornered and the Supreme Court bought them another train full. The same with ALEC who are telling Legislators how to vote and even writing the bills. This country is more intimidated by the Elites than the few union members out there.

        • Kevin Beck

          One point to remember about the Citizens United decision: It granted the same benefits to unions as it did to corporations.

      • DaveH

        Linda says — “there’s a whole army people who will work for anything”.
        So, Linda, you have a problem with other people trying to earn a living?

      • Vigilant

        eddie, predfictablly , gets it wrong again with ““Power’: It’s a hard battle trying to keep up with a living wage so why aren’t you concerned about the Citizen United ruling that gave immense influence to those who already have the ability to do so.”

        For the umpteenth time, look at http://www.opensecrets.org/orgs/list.php and then tell me who has had the overbearing influence on political campaigns, and which political party has reaped the benefits.

        The Citizens United decision simply leveled the playing field to remove the inordinate influence of labor unions on the process. Obama and the Dems saw this and disagreed on the decision for purely political reasons. Obama’s factually incorrect statement during that State of the Union speech was not only rude and uncalled for, it was a reflection of the Dems’ frustration that they are now forced to play a fairer game.

      • eddie47d

        I disagree that Citizens United leveled the playing field …anything but.Their offspring ALEC and the Chamber of Commerce have gotten very bold lately and have kept Corporations and the Elites way ahead of the game.

    • Wyatt

      Out spent ? Someone has been drinking the leftwing Kool-Aid . The Unions raised and spent $21 million alone and add that to the 2.9 million the Bennett campaign admits to spending and the gap is closed by a huge amount . And if only 2.9 million was spent , who’s pocket did 21 million dissappear into ?

      • Vigilant

        And lest we forget, the millions of $$$ in slanted left wing MSM endorsement of the unions at no charge to them needs to be taken into account.

        What a wonderful day for our Republic!!!

      • eddie47d

        The spending was 3-1 in favor of Walker and Republican Governors Association had much influence in how the election turned out. The talking heads on FOX did their part also so get a grip Vigilant.

      • http://none Judith

        I agree with you Wyatt. The unions used to be for working class. My husband belonged to the Teamsters Union for over 30yrs.after he got out of the navy. He paid his dues and also paid into his retirement and spousal benefits. There were some crooks running the union back then, but they were for the working men. Now it is so involved with government and getting rich they blow the members dues wrongfully. Those dues should stay in the union and help creat jobs for our citizens..Why didn’t they put a few million to help pay our national debt? Because there would be no money in it for them.

    • Jacques

      Terrible, isn’t it? Hopefully you’re accounting for Soros somewhere… or it just work one way. Well, it is a two way street, enjoy the ride!

      • eddie47d

        Soros wasn’t envolved in the Wisconsin election so take your senseless babble to another planet!

      • JeffH

        eddie, Liberals, like yourself , who howled at the nightmarish evil of “Koch Brothers money” supporting Walker are curiously silent about international leftist billionaire George Soros funding anti-Walker websites and organizations through his Open Society Institute.

        One of these Soros operations, the “Wisconsin Values Budget,” urged closing a $3.6 billion state budget deficit with a billion dollars in tax increases.

        Oh, and just so ya know, Soros kid, Jonathan Soros, was also a big contributor to the Recall Scott Walker campaign . Soros is on your evil 1% list isn’t he?

    • http://yahoo a

      Doc,The public is tired of getting screwed and not waking up in the morning with a smile.This was the left’s wet dream and they came up dry. Seems like the Tea Party will rock this fall!!!

      • UWorlds1

        It’s a sad day when workers vote against their own interests…average wages have been going down since the ‘trickle down’ theory of Reagan was enacted. As far as the tea party goes…Romney is no tea party republican.

        • Kevin Beck

          Check your math again. Real wages have been going down since Nixon took the United States off the gold standard in 1971. Even Reagan’s Revolution could not overcome the deceit brought about by Nixon.

    • Armen Kartvelian

      As to spending, fear of having less money to spend must be the reason President Obama has been holding so many fund-raisers, as many as four a day.

      BTW, who pays for his transport and security when he’s at a fund-raiser? OK, the taxpayers cover his security because he’s the president. But why doesn’t his campaign pay for his transport since he’s not at the fund-raiser on official business but as a candidate for re-election?

    • Steve E
      • DaveH

        The end of Democracy? And here all this time I thought we had a Republic.

    • Warrior

      I sense the “progressive” walls are crumbling and falling in on themselves. If there is a benefit to this “recession”, it is that “sunlight” has been shown on all the “unsustainable” ponzi schemes of the “progressives”. SS, medicare, medicaid, public sector unions kickback schemes; planned parenthood and all the rest of “wonderful programs “you enjoy” according to little barry. Fabrication and fraud ARE the trademark now of the “progressive socialist democratic party” Go get yourself some more Beefeaters because I believe you need to be “ginned up” some more.. Funny thing about reality, donkey’s have a very difficult time handling it without medicinal assistance!

    • http://www.facebook.com/nate.kangas Nate Kangas

      Doc that is not correct. Walker did not outspend Barrett 7 to 1. In fact if you read the press they are saying 8 to 1. However, the facts are much different. Walker spent a total of $45.6 million and Barrett spent a total of $17.9 million. That is not 7 to one it is only a 2.5 to 1difference. The 7 or 8 to one you and the press are referring to is the amount of money raised by each candidate. The 8 to 1 number that Democrats are focusing in on is the amount that was raised specifically by each candidate not including independent groups. Scott Walker raised $29.7 million and Tom Barrett raised $2.9 million.

      What that shows is that America is not behind the Unions as much as you would like to think.

      • JeffH

        Nate, try to understand the liberal mind…it’s called cheating if they are outspent or out funded and lose…if they win, then it’s all fair in love and politics…in essence, they’re all a bunch of dependant whiny hypocrites.

    • Power To The People

      No Doc…it was not the spending….throwing money at everything does not produce results! Instead, the voters were aware of the issues and saw through the lefty BS and realized the unions are sticking it to them the tax payer and said “enough”!

      Guess that’s hard to swallow when chocking on your over sized pensions!

    • Judy

      Gee how about the 31 billion George Soross has contributed to the left and it’s crazy ideas.. A far cry from the 4 million the Kock brothers have contributed. Keep in mind Soross is a crazy old koot that wants to see this country on its knees, and we are just about there.

      • eddie47d

        Once again Soros was not envolved in the Wisconsin elections but the Koch’s were so stick to the facts.

    • diamond1957

      and soros’s deep pockets dont ever count does it ? Too bad the Unions pockets arent as deep as the other players. And to those who think going back to $5.00 an hour is so bad, what if the cost living rolled back with it ?

    • JeffH

      Doc, paranoia mind destroia. You lefties have no other boogeyman do you? Well, not right now anyway.The Koch brothers believe that economic freedom and free markets are the best way to generate prosperity for everyone and they put their money where their mouth is. If the Koch brothers really wanted to make a lot of money for themselves, they would act like most corporations…seek fortune through government intervention, not through competition in free markets.

      Charles and David Koch believe in low taxes, less spending, and limited regulation not because those policies helped them but because they helped everybody. “If I wanted to enhance my riches,” said David Koch, “why do I give away almost all my money?”

      You may not like it but I suggest you read this…The left’s obsession with the Koch brothers
      http://wichitaliberty.org/free-markets/weekly-standard-the-left%e2%80%99s-obsession-with-the-koch-brothers/

      • DaveH

        Slam dunk, Jeff.
        Thank you.

    • DaveH

      No amount of campaign contributions can force you to vote any way you don’t want to vote. It’s funny how you Liberals cry about campaign funding when it goes against your wishes, but are just fine with it when it’s in your favor:
      http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/07/18/obama-campaign-fundraising_n_901569.html

    • wisdomwalker

      How is the Koch brothers money any different from George Soros money?

      • Judy

        Thank you, of course most people don’t even know who George Soross is. They need to have a heads up on who he is. I would think they would at least be curious, because he is out to destroy this country, just like his mouth piece Obama

        • UWorlds1

          I think the only people that have destroyed America are people that are hoardng the money. People like Romney.

          • Judy

            Guess what it is none of our business what Romney does with HIS money, but it is my business what Obama is doing with MINE!!!!!!!

          • UWorlds1

            It’s my business when he has gotten money from the government and does not pay taxes on it. Plus he’s running for President of course it’s my business. Romney is nothing but a corporate welfare king.

          • Judy

            What. The heck are you talking about, he made his money by investing and working not from the government, we aren’t really sure where the heck Obama made his. Romeny has never taken any of your money or mine, he invests his own, which by the way he made on his own, I have no idea where you get your info.

          • UWorlds1

            Are you kidding me??? Tax breaks, low-interests loans, government loans, business incentives, etc. Surely you are not that naive to think Romney has not gotten any help from government. The American people are dumber than I thought.

          • Judy

            Are you even aware of how many companies he has rebuilt with that money which by the way helped people keeps there jobs, do you think he’s the only man to get these things? For Pete sakes if I could get some of that money to rebuild something that would save or create jobs I sure would too. You seem to have a problem with people being successful?

          • UWorlds1

            Oh geeze…why when someone has an opinion we are against success? I just am not on the paddy wagon with this job creation BS. i am not ashamed to be a worker. Workers are what built America. And for some reason the worker is being bashed. Romney is first and foremost a wealth creator…for himself. These so-called job creators are a joke. if they were job creators every person in America would have a job. We give these people to much credence. They move money around and make money for themselves. if you think Romney will create jobs while being president you are a fool. if that was the case he should just keep the job he has and create jobs.

            He wants to be in office to enact laws that will make more money for him and his cronies. The middle class will be destroyed under Romney. Most of the jobs he created with Bain were 10.00/hr jobs..not living wage jobs. He knows nothing about student laws, credit care debt, etc. I have nothing against the mega-rich, I just don’t think they make good Presidents.

          • Judy

            We’ll good luck with that one, you have to be rich to run for president, never seen a poor one. If you think socialism creates jobs you are living somewhere else. It’s worked so well for other countries NOT ! Obama has no idea how to create jobs, just where do you think all this money has spent for green energy? It’s lined someones pockets and Nancy Pelossi’s brother is one of those lucky people to get some of that money,that by the way hasn’t created anything. Just what kind of experience can you show me Obama has had at running anything besides community organizing, I guess he may have ordered some shirts or something for his little protesters to wear. He is the biggest joke to ever hit the white house.

          • UWorlds1

            Where did I ever say anything about being a socialist…you people love to throw labels on people.

          • Kevin Beck

            You’re absolutely correct! Both Roosevelts and John Kennedy were horrific presidents.

          • Judy

            Oh and by the way, you have Romeny mixed up with Timothy Gightner Obamas treasury man he didn’t pay his taxes. Besides Romeny is releasing his tax forms, so not paying his taxes like you say is a lie

          • UWorlds1

            He just leaves the majority of his money in offshore accounts. Romney’s not that smart, he’s not a self-made person…he was born rich.

          • Judy

            Lots of people are born rich, so what and as for offshore accounts I have no proof of that and even if he does it’s perfectly legal, thousand of rich people do that. You know what, our government sets it up for people to look for loop holes, I don’t see the government helping me when we redo a house to make extra money, but when we sell it the governments right there looking for their 30%, which they did nothing to deserve it. I have no problem paying taxes, but when the government wants a third of my profit when I’m trying to get ahead it pisses me off

          • UWorlds1

            I have a problem with the government taking to much of my paycheck also…but please don’t try to make Romney out to be a do-gooder. He was born rich, he used all his wealth..not to help people but to get ahead. He not only did not pay his fair share on taxes he wants to lower his tax rate more. He has never served in the military please none of his FIVE sons have not served in at least the Air National Guard. He has given back nothing to the country that has been so good to him.

          • Judy

            Oh yes and Obama has given back so much, oh he didn’t serve In the military either, didn’t know that was a prerequisite for being president. At least he’s wasn’t like some rich kids who just blow all the family money, instead he made more good for him. Most Mormons I know are hard working and they all seem to be pretty well off. Maybe being a good Christian, and giving back to God does make you more successful. Oh by the way have you looked up how much the Romenys donated versus Biden, or Obama, I think you will be shocked.

          • UWorlds1

            Yes I do know Romney donated most of his money to the Mormon church. And we really don’t know how much money Romney has given since we have NOT seen his real tax returns.

          • Judy

            Ok you can go online type in Romenys taxes, and or Romenys donations. He has released his taxes, and it breaks down his donations, what he made and so on. Obama gave 5.7% in 2007 Biden gave .03 and Romney gave 16 % you are mislead if you think Romney hasn’t released his tax statement

          • Liberty Lover

            Romney IS a self-made man, UWorlds1, though he started with significant advantages, including a superior IQ and a good role model for leadership. His wealth is not inherited. Read a little about his life and try to remove at least one of your many areas of ignorance.

          • Eric Jones

            There is NOOO SUCH THING as a self made man. These stories you her about people “pulling themselves up by the boot straps” is a MYTH he exploited his workers like everyone else.

      • DaveH

        UWorlds1,
        You need to do some learning. Capital Investment is what drives an economy. Without the Capital Machinery and Plants that are built with that investment, we would all be on a bare subsistence level like so many people in the third world countries. Now, for sure, if the companies are getting special aid (subsidies, tariffs, quotas, regulations, and other forms of protection) from their Crony Politicians, that is a bad thing. But that’s a separate issue. The best we can hope for is that Government butts the flock out of our Marketplaces.
        Please put on your thinking cap and read this:
        http://mises.org/daily/5277/When-Capital-Is-Nowhere-in-View

      • eddie47d

        Dave thinks all that money in the Cayman Islands is helping America to prosper. Only those who hide their money benefit and too many who do didn’t earn it honestly.

      • DaveH

        You didn’t read the article, did you ignoramus?

    • JeffH

      Doc, I’d like you to take a hard look at this, while you continue on with your liberal infused talking point Re: KOCH.

      George Soros: Godfather of the Left
      Liberal billionaire trying to give U.S. a liberal society it can’t refuse.
      Soros Indoctrinates Students Around the World

      Left-wing donor George Soros spent more than $400 million world-wide to indoctrinate students and teach them to promote liberal, and in some cases extremist, causes. He has even funded his own university that promotes his own unique philosophy of open society. His reach and influence far surpasses that of the Koch brothers, who have been vilified by the left and the media for their grants to universities.

      Soros funded programs and classes at universities around the world promote his radical ideology. Soros’s Open Society Foundations granted $407,790,344 in gifts and commitments to higher education since the year 2000. The Koch brothers were vilified by the American political left for donating almost $7 million to universities while their beloved Soros gave more than 50 times that amount to the same type of groups.

      Soros Gave More than 50 Times as much as Koch Brothers to Universities, Liberals Still Scream Foul.
      http://www.mrc.org/special-reports/special-report-george-soros-godfather-left

      • JeffH

        The liberal media’s shameful double standard when it comes to George Soros.

        In the wake of the liberal humiliation in the Wisconsin recall election Tuesday, the media have been decrying the influence of money in politics. But for years, ultra left-wing billionaire George Soros has been using his billions to advance a genuinely frightening agenda of abortion, indoctrination of our children, drug legalization, limits on free speech, global governance and many more items on the liberal wish list. All the while, the liberal media have ignored or willfully distorted his dangerous agenda.

        • UWorlds1

          We have seen a lot of legalization of drugs, more abortions and the like. Are you in reality. If anything the opposite is true.

      • JeffH

        UWorlds1, not quite sure what point you’re trying to make…that said, do you even know what “reality” means?

        You might need some help…so here it is.reality-
        1.The quality or state of being actual or true.
        2.One, such as a person, an entity, or an event, that is actual: “the weight of history and political realities” (Benno C. Schmidt, Jr.).
        3.The totality of all things possessing actuality, existence, or essence.
        4.That which exists objectively and in fact: Your observations do not seem to be about reality.

        • UWorlds1

          The reality is the only policies that I see as far as education, women’s reproductive rights, etc. have been brought forth from the republican party not the democrats.

      • DaveH

        ?

      • JeffH

        DaveH, UWorlds1 may be related to eddie.

      • DaveH

        Scary thought.

      • Buster the Anatolian

        If UWorlds1 isn’t related to eddie he is related to Flashy. UWorlds1 is just as adept at posting opinions and ideas as fact without one shread of evidence in the form of sources and/or links as either of them.

  • drewynp

    I live in Montana, where I’m forced to belong to a union as a condition of my employment. Take note legislators! We need nationwide Right to Work laws NOW!!!!

    • eddie47d

      Were you “forced” or was it by majority vote? Big difference! Thank You

      • Armen Kartvelian

        No, Eddie. It’s called a “closed shop.” A condition of employment is union membership. Why do you think they are called “right-to-work states”?

      • Ted G

        When other people can vote to “force” me to give up my own money against my will thats not simply democracy that’s thievery!

      • eddie47d

        If it is a closed shop then you know up front whether you are willing to pay dues or not.He does have the right to work there or not.

      • Vigilant

        “Were you “forced” or was it by majority vote? Big difference!”

        Au contraire! It’s called “tyranny of the majority,” something the Founders were extremely adamant in opposing.

        Tell us, eddie, how is taking union dues from a Republican to contribute to Democrat causes “fair,” even by left wing standards of “fairness?”

      • eddie47d

        Nice attempt at twisting Vigilant. If union members vote on membership then it is the will of the majority workers. If a shop votes down being in a union that is also the will of the workers. Kind of like any election where someone who is voted in becomes the winner and runs the show or is that to complicated for you. I am aware there are Conservatives out there who don’t believe in elections or at least only for a select few so maybe you are one of them.

      • Dennis48e

        “Tell us, eddie, how is taking union dues from a Republican to contribute to Democrat causes “fair,” even by left wing standards of “fairness?”

        Of course its fair Vigilant. Don’t you know only the unions know who it is best to send your money to. Don’t you know only the democrats know what is best for you and how best to waste er spend your money.

      • DaveH

        By a majority vote? So, Eddie, theft is okay with you if the majority of people say so? Killing is okay with you if the majority of people say so?

      • DaveH

        Eddie says — “If it is a closed shop then you know up front whether you are willing to pay dues or not.He does have the right to work there or not”.
        But it can only be a closed shop because Unionists have coercively Forced that upon the owner, Eddie. I realize that too much for you to grasp, but think of it this way, what if we conservatives decided that you weren’t worth what you were paid all those years (no doubt) and we voted in majority to take most of your assets away. You’d be okay with that?

      • eddie47d

        There you go again Dave making assumptions. Most deals in life are negotiated including union shops. When a company wants to do business with another company they negotiate a deal or is that to hard for you to grasp??

      • eddie47d

        Dennis you are a bald faced liar. I belonged to a union for 40 years and my dues went to the local office and to operations at the National office. The union had separate funds or PACs for political fund raising and they were always voluntary.

      • eddie47d

        Hey SICKO Dave H go get a rabies shot for that rabid comment about killing people and thievery. You are disgusting!!

      • Buster the Anatolian

        Oooh eddie is getting mighty testy. Dennis and Dave must be hitting mighty close to home and really upsetting his rotten apple cart.

      • DaveH

        Eddie says — “Most deals in life are negotiated including union shops”.
        Sure, Eddie, negotiated. Like when the 2 wolves let the sheep vote what’s for dinner.
        Voluntary negotiations don’t involve Government. Government is Force. If the Government is involved there is no such thing as voluntary negotiations.
        You can whine and rationalize all you want, Eddie, but Unionists are simply a gang of thieves. They don’t have to be. It would certainly fit in the definition of Freedom for them to join together and walk out. But I’ve never known a Union to stop there. They coerce, they vandalize, they intimidate, they bully, and sometimes they even kill in order to get their way, all under the auspices of criminal Government.
        I know it hurts your sensibilities, Eddie, but then with your bizarre behavior I have gotten over worrying about that.

      • Patty

        That does not make it democracy, it makes it mob rule.

    • jimster

      We do need right to work laws BUT we need NO nation wide laws on the subject, keep the feds out of state rights.

      • diamond1957

        Good point jimster, lets not forget the federal gov. they can be just as bad as unions, the States were intended to run this nation, and things wont ever be right until the States reign again.

      • UWorlds1

        To late the corporations are already in the states and they run the federal government too.

  • MAP

    I am stumped by the implications of this issue. For a union to operate in the private sector doesn’t really involve me or my finances directly. A union can drive a business into bankruptcy, but, unless I work for that business, it is an issue that involves the union, the shareholders, the employees, and the company. Those that work for government, on the other hand, do involve me and my finances. The demands of these government workers affect my taxes. Since there can never be more government workers than nongovernment taxpayers (excluding communism), nongovernment taxpayers will always be a majority. So I ask: Why would someone vote for greater taxes, the only reason being to enrich those living off their taxes? The loons in the Democratic Party are, as logic would dictate, the losers on this issue, just as they are on healthcare and immigration. They prove that the money they receive from the unions is more important to them than the living standards of the taxpayer. Little wonder the Democratic Party has become the ‘parasite party’. With such asinine positions, they are forced to scoop from the bottom of the barrel for support.

    • Joe Brooks

      Some things to consider, besides Sgt Z’s points

      The Communists [keep in mind who we are enriching and buliding the military of thru "free trade" with Red China] infiltrated the unions when they were trying to bankrupt American owned companies by increasing wages/benefits too high, but were largely kicked out due to the efforts of HUAC and George Meany. Now they are working hard to destroy the last vestiges of the real unions as a way to increase their profits.

      The right to assemble should not be thrown in the trash. HUAC needs to be re-established and the Constitution followed.

      Are we trying to become a surrogate USSR?

      The move by President Vladimir Putin’s United Russia party means those participating in “unsanctioned public meetings” can be fined up to 30,000 rubles ($900 US) and up to 300,000 rubles ($9,000 US) if the event causes damage to property or causes injuries.

      http://www.amnesty.org/en/news/russia-putin-urged-reject-law-restricting-right-peaceful-assembly-2012-06-07

      • Joe Brooks

        Watch out for this, we need to be careful not to cause this to happen : Unlike labor unions in the West, Soviet trade unions were, in fact, actually governmental organizations whose chief aim was not to represent workers but to further the goals of management, government, and the CPSU. As such, they were partners of management in attempting to promote labor discipline, worker morale, and productivity. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trade_unions_in_the_Soviet_Union

      • Joe Brooks

        All employees in China have the right under law to join the ACFTU, which claims some 170 million members and is controlled by the Communist Party. ACFTU has a monopoly on trade unionizing in China and creation of competing unions is illegal. Party leaders have ensured that the ACFTU has a monopolist position. They don’t want autonomous unions springing up, because of the potential threat to their authority. In 2008, collective bargaining became a requirement of the Labor Contract Law that went into effect, forcing most companies – including most foreign owned ones – to create an ACFTU chaptered trade union within them. http://www.tradereform.org/2011/09/what-is-the-secret-behind-china%e2%80%99s-cheap-prices/

      • diamond1957

        which came first ? communism or the unions ? today unions are a toe in the door for communist and socialist take overs, this worker mentality blinds people, it appears as security, yet it locks everyone in as a worker, plus our rights come not from the government or unions, our rights are God given, and thats the corner stone of true freedom

    • DaveH

      Map says — “I am stumped by the implications of this issue. For a union to operate in the private sector doesn’t really involve me or my finances directly. A union can drive a business into bankruptcy, but, unless I work for that business, it is an issue that involves the union, the shareholders, the employees, and the company”.
      But it is our business, MAP. If you’re a moral person (and I know that you are) then it is our duty to weed out Force and Coercion every chance we get, whether it involves us directly or not. To do otherwise is to take our finger out of the hole in the dikes that hold back the Immoral Hoardes who would plunder our society.

      • UWorlds1

        I would think the only ones that are immoral are the oligarchy that are stumping on the middlle class. Not the Unions.

      • DaveH

        You would think wrong then. I haven’t yet known a company that can force you to do anything (excluding Government). If you call offering you a job and expecting something in return (your effort) “stumping” on you, what would you call people (Unionists) who are coercively taking somebody else’s money? I call them thieves.

      • Liberty Lover

        The “immoral hordes” are already plundering our society!

  • Vigilannie

    Just one comment……..WHO SAYS Romney??? will be the nominee???? RON PAUL 2012. If Romney were elected president…..basically NOTHING WILL CHANGE!

    • Ted Crawford

      Were Ron Paul to run it would be terribly embarrassing for Rand Paul who just yesterday endorsed Mitt Romney ! !

      • eddie47d

        Ouch!

      • DaveH

        Rand Paul is not Ron Paul. He certainly has lost my respect.

        • Liberty Lover

          Rand Paul is a realist. He has my respect….and I’m sure his father’s as well.

      • independant thinker

        From a Newsmax article.

        “Paul, a tea party favorite, had previously endorsed his father, libertarian icon Ron Paul. “My first choice had always been my father,” said Paul, “But now that the nominating process is over, I’m happy to announce that I’m going to be supporting Gov. Mitt Romney,” reports The Hill.

        Ron Paul nominally remains a candidate in the GOP race, but he announced last month that he was suspending his campaign and has since telegraphed to supporters that he lacks the delegates to secure the nomination.”

      • DaveH

        Realists, Liberty Lover, are what got us to our current state of affairs. As fewer and fewer people stick to their Principles, fewer and fewer Principled people remain. Better to lose and retain your Principles than to win and lose your Principles.

        • Liberty Lover

          We are kindred spirits, DaveH. I will likely vote for Gary Johnson on the Libertarian ticket because Romney has no chance of prevailing in my super-blue state. So I can vote on principle without increasing the risk of Obama acquiring a second term to promote peace through weakness and prosperity through socialism/fascism. I am no fan of Romney, but he’s infinitely preferable to the alternative.

          • Eric Jones

            socialism/facism realy …realy? im going to say this slowly socialism is on the far LEFT and facism (which is closer to the truth i grant you) is on the far RIGHT.

          • Liberty Lover

            Whether you say it slowly or rapidly, Eric, the result is the same. Move far enough to the right on the circle of freedom versus oppression or far enough to the left and you end at the same point of state totalitarianism. Are you aware that the fascist Nazis were the National Socialist Party of Germany?

          • Eric Jones

            I was indeed but were YOU aware that on “the night of the long knives” he MURDERD over 100 members of his own party BECAUSE they belived in the socialist where as hittler USED it as a way to seduce angry young men. p.s for historical sake it was the national socialist GERMAN WORKERS party fyi

          • Kevin Beck

            Eric, let me clear up a misunderstanding you are exhibiting. The only difference between Socialism and Fascism is the ownership of the means of production.

            Socialism is when the State owns the means of production, while Fascism is when private parties own the means of production. In both systems, the State has complete control over the production. So how could Fascism be at the opposite end of the spectrum from Socialism?

            Answer: They are not at opposite ends of the spectrum. They are on the same side.

      • DaveH
    • diamond1957

      regardless of who wins, if the voters don’t stay engaged, informed, and vocal nothing will change. How did our government get so screwed up ? people didn’t pay attention to it, just like children who’s parents aren’t present to raise them, they grow from little monsters into full grown night mares. That’s why we need something like the tea party, to be the big stick or the rod of correction, a tool to remind and force them to better represent the people even handed and not give in to the special interests.

      • nc

        Diamond, you say we need the tea party people because they can be the “rod of correction’!! Like the ending of ear marks???? A government waste study group found that some 50 members of the congressional TEA PARTY CAUCUS requested over 700 ear marks totaling over 1 billion dollars in the 111th Congress! Is that how you do it?? Rather than a Rod of Correction you are looking at the REAMING ROD OF REALITY of how the game is played!

  • Polski

    It’s a shame. Right to work=LEECHES. The unions got workers 40 hour weeks, safe working conditions, vacations, reasonable pay, pensions, health benefits. And belonging to a union paid for maintaining these. NONE of the right to work anti-union people are willing to give up 40 hour work weeks, safe working conditions, vacation, reasonable pay, pensions, health benefits. But they do NOT want to pay for it. They want FREEBIES. It took unions a long time to get these benefits for the workers. There would not have been any unions if the OWNERS of companies had been reasonable. The original Henry Ford hired a union buster/preventer named Harry Bennett. He was of the same class as Al Capone. No one knows how many people he killed and/or maimed. My grandfather, father, and uncle worked for Ford’s in those days. I was a pre-teen in those days. They got paid $7 a week. NO

    • Doug

      As in so many cases with the unions they got greedy. Maybe there was a time when Unions served a purpose, but that time has ran its course. Unions in my opinion played a large part in the off-shore boom, and limited employment availability to afforded people like your Grandfather, Fathers and others that needed to find work to help feed their families, and education took a backseat. Factory work served a less educated in America. As for Unions in Government…that should have never been allowed. When a union shut down Ford Motor’s is one thing but when a union can shut down a city, state, or nation…that is very different!! When it takes an act of Congress to fire a Federal, State or City employees once they have work three years (vested)…you get people who just don’t care that their customer (tax-payers) aren’t happen (DMV comes to mind for you(?)). And finally, every time the price of Union pay goes up so does everything else and Unions are more concerned about increasing pay to increase it’s dues! If you wonder just how much damage a Union can have on a local economy…Welcome to the State of Michigan..or City of Detroit!!

      • MAP

        I live in the South. It has always been right to work. I’ve always found work and have lived in the middle class. I have never been a member of a union and have never missed it. A couple of times I was in a position to vote in a union, but voted against it. My father was a life-long Teamster member. The truck lines he worked for was driven into bankruptcy and he had to take an early retirement.

      • moonbeam

        “And finally, every time the price of Union pay goes up so does everything else…” When I was just a little kid, my grandmother told me the very same thing about unions.

      • DaveH

        Not only that, but people lose their jobs. Companies, due to the competitive nature of the Marketplace, generally maintain a small margin of profit. When the Unionists get their pay raises the company can either insist on increased productivity (not likely to be accepted) or they can lay off workers. There is no free lunch.

        • UWorlds1

          ‘Companies maintain a small profit margin’…surely you are kidding. Most companies are making money hand over fist. They are paying lower wages and getting more work from employees.

      • DaveH

        You have no idea, Uworld.
        They make their money from voluntary transactions. They provide a product or service that the consumer voluntarily purchases. If they do make high margins of profit it is only until others catch on and join the fray. The average company makes less than 10% profit on their investments. See here:
        http://money.cnn.com/magazines/fortune/fortune500/2008/performers/industries/profits/

        And as a side effect they give people, who otherwise would be helpless when it comes to employing themselves, a chance to earn a living. Instead of denigrating them, we should be celebrating them, except of course those businesses which earn their profits the Political way (Crony Capitalists).

    • Harry

      My family back then would have loved to got $7 a week because that was very good pay!! Henry Ford almost closed his company was not for his wife. He felt betrayed because he did give back a lot to the employees in that time period. The union was not the one came up with 40 hour work week and all those other benefits at all. Where do you think that they got those ideas from, because there was already a company that was doing those things without unions? Yes, unions had their time in history, but today with all the laws and regulations that a company has, there is no need for unions anymore and that is why so many the people left the unions when they did not have to belong to them. I know that my grandmother was force to strike for a month for a raise that the union told the workers need to do. Now she did not get any money for that month, but did get her raise after the strike which was $.15 an hour, but her union dues went up $.25 an hour. They told her that they need to up on the dues to pay for the strike which most of the workers where against in the first place. When all was done only one that won was the union bosses and their pocketbooks and not the workers. Because the union was so hard to work with the company close their doors the next year and moved to a state in the South that did not have unions. I do not blame them at all and my grandmother blames the union for driving the company out of her home town. Now New Hampshire is a free to work state and I am very glad for that because this will drive the unions out and make the good hard working people keep the jobs and not the ones that do not work and bring down the moral of the company. Now, I own a company and if the union came into my shop, I would close it the next day because I do not need another governing body to tell me how to run my company. Unions are of the past like the horse and buggy. Have you seen how much these Union Boss get for pay and how they life? It is unbelievable.

    • Ted Crawford

      Polski
      You’ve been mislead, while what you say about Unions is correct, you fail to realize that those Unions were Private Sector Unions. Walker, or any other Government official only has control over Public Sector Union Employees.
      Public Sector Unions should never have come into existance. Here is what one of Americas stauncest supporters of Private Sector Unions and American Workers in general had to say on this matter- ” All Government employess should realize thaat the pratice of collective bargaining, as usually understood, cannot be transplanted into the public service. It has it’s distinct and insurmountable limitations when applied to public personnel management! ” Franklin D. Roosevelt

      • MAP

        That was exactly my point above, Ted. What taxpayer in their right mind would vote to transfer more of their wages to government workers? The Democratic Party has taken an incredibly stupid stand on this. They have taken the side of the minority in the face of the majority (nongovernment taxpayers). It is impossible for a taxpayer to find anything positive in this message.

    • John

      Polski, Right to work means that each one of us has a right to work, that is a right that in some states was taken away from the American people in that state. Any law that takes away any right is a bad law. I work for other people in a right to work state. If I cannot do a good job, then I will lose that job. However, because I take pride in my work ethic, I do a better than average job, and I keep it because I do it very well. No union means I can keep my job because I learned the skill I needed, and can do it very well. That also means that no union can order me to strike, or can take my money that they didn’t earn. If I cannot keep my job, by my own skills, Then that is not the job for me. If I want a raise, I don’t need a union rep to get it for me, I can get it myself. When I have asked for a raise at any time since 1978, I always got the raise I asked for, and I kept those jobs for as long as I wanted, because I did it well. Government employees should not be in a union unless each individual ask to join one. If it is a good union, great, but if all it does is take money, and not spend it on the union members, why join.

      • UWorlds1

        Just wait when that company gets bought out by another company and they raid your pension fund and you have no union to back you up.

    • Notinaunion

      Polski – I am not against Unions in the private sector. Private sector unions fought long and hard for workers rights and we are all beneficiaries of their work. Much of the existing labor law is based on what Unions fought for in this country. My father was part of a union when he worked in the steel mills around Pittsburgh and Buffalo, unfortunately not many of those companies exist any more. However, what I am against is public sector unions – they serve no useful purpose except to rip off the taxpayers. Why did over half of the public union employees in Wisconsin *NOT* opt to fund the union when given a choice? Maybe part of the issue is that they don’t support the union’s political choices?

      • UWorlds1

        I live in Wisconsin and they opted out because they still get union protection without giving to the Union.

    • diamond1957

      sorry Polski your wrong, yes unions did improve things when things needed improving, but your continued support doesnt maintain anything, those things you like so much were bought and paid for by your employer not the union, your membership and dues dont maintain anything but a very lavish life style for a select few. while some sort of representation between employer and worker can be benefical to help keep a balance, some unions have gotten out right corrupt, with pay offs both to them directly or to politicians, but either way its the power that corrupts.

    • http://gravatar.com/catman11 coalminer

      Polshi,
      They also help in getting the Social Security bill passed .I have being working in the coal mines for 43 years and now retired. I also belonged to the United Mine Workers Union and there is no way I would work in a scab mines, one example is the one in West Virginia Those miners paid with their lives.

      thinkprogress.org/politics/2011/03/05/…/top-five-things-unions/
      Mar 5, 2011 – The number one thing to do if you encounter a problem with your union is to confront them about your concern. There could be a good reason.

  • Nottakenyan

    Do people who pay union dues have brains?

    • eddie47d

      Yes and a decent paycheck! Go back to paying 3rd world wages and watch the Middle Class shrink even further.

      • John

        How about doing the job well, so the company wants to give you a raise, instead of doing a mediocre job, and having the company forced to give you a raise that you didn’t earn on your own.

      • Judy

        My husband has never had to work for a union, thank God. He now works for a company that broke the union 20 years ago, and guess what, people are getting better pay, better health care, more vacation, and bonuses that are based on 10% of personal performance and 10% on company performance. The personal performance can go up to 15%, which means you do a good job for the year and you are rewarded for it, explain to me how that can ever happen Ina union? Unions are going by the way of the dinasour, yeh!!!!!
        Companies want good workers, and to keep them if they are smart, they pay them for it. Now if you are lazy and or irresponsible, or both, you get the boot, you don’t have some union standing there holding your hand and allowing you to continue to be a loser. People need to be responsible for their own actions, and with a union backing you up you really don’t have to. Plus if you are a good hard worker and you are in a union and you watch others get away with doing as little as possible, eventually you may start becoming like them, so unions can ruin a good worker.

        • Liberty Lover

          Great post, Judy. Just as unions can ruin a good worker, socialist policies can destroy an entire working class!

      • diamond1957

        its a different world today, employers compete for top employees, and it will remain this way unless our educational system fails us completely, and we may not be far from it, unions have no interest in self starters, they need drones, obedient drones.

      • eddie47d

        Just the opposite Diamond The companies want “drones” who are subservient.

      • independant thinker

        I worked under a union for a short time. I got mediocre pay, poor benefits, and was constantly told to slow down because I was working doing to much. All that union did was take money for their dues from my paycheck. I left that job for a non union position and got better pay, better benefits, and my hard work was appreciated and rewarded. Incidently the union plant closed a couple of years after I left.

        • Liberty Lover

          My only reply to your very welcome comment is to check the spelling of your screen name.

  • UWorlds1

    It isnt funny that the decline of unions is also the decline of the middle class. Workers are working for peanuts and doing more. Never could understand why white people vote against their interests. Scott Walker doesnt care about workers and neither does Romney. I live in Wisconsin. I am still waiting to see more jobs here.

    Scott Walker is not too smart. He was kicked out of college. The guy never had a real job. I can’t believe he is our Governor. As we speak he is under a federal investigation. I never understand why white people will stand behind such bad people because of some ideological belief. It’s just stupid. This guy does not know anything about bringing jobs anywhere. Wisconsin has been sold to the highest bidder.

    • Nottakenyan

      The reason we have a lying, illegal Kenyigar sleeping in the White House is partially due to union mentality!!!
      Not really something as an American taxpayer that I am proud of or want my grandchildren to have to pay the price for this disgrace and disaster.

    • Shane

      I am so thankful when someone from a postion different from mine, speaks up as you do UWorlds1. Your comment does more good, than a long winded rebuttal by myself, or those with similar beliefs. Your emotion, illogical conclusions, and unprincipled statements means much in this debate and to the long running debate on the merits of the different political perpersuasion trying to gain dominance in our country.

      UWorlds1 have done a good thing. Please continue to comment, as you did here. Your writings are do a good service in educating the gray hairs and those much younger and more inexprienced. Most individuals will want to distant themselves from those like yourself, and those orgainizations that they are a part of. Thanks again UWorlds1.

      • UWorlds1

        I am happy to accomodate you. Mark my words either Walke will go down for this scandal or because he has not produced jobs.

    • eddie47d

      I believe union members should pay a fair share to their pension and health care so that doesn’t bother me . As long as the company is fair and honest the workers should be as reasonable in any demands. For Walker to take away collective bargaining was immature and was only catering to the extreme right lead by the Koch Brothers. The Koch’s bought Wisconsin long before the election and then bullied Walker into action. Walker was deliberately manipulated and he bit into the carrot.

      • Oneguess

        More hor$e $hit from you. NOT unexpected.

      • JeffH

        eddie ignorantly says ” For Walker to take away collective bargaining was immature and was only catering to the extreme right lead by the Koch Brothers.” Wouldn’t expect anything less from eddie .

        There will still be “collective baraining” in Wisconsin.
        What Walker did do is attempt to eliminate unjustified, unworkable power grabs by public unions. The Governor and citizens are tired of pandering, coercion, bribery, whining, and petulant demands of the unions, and they have spoken with they’re votes in the Wisconsin recall election.

        Under collective bargaining laws, employers have to recognize an elected union and have to negotiate with them!

        The misnamed term ‘collective bargaining’ has given an aura of moral righteousness to the unions who pretend to be fighting for true American values like the freedom of association. However, they are fighting for values quite foreign to the United States, values that come from Marxist collectivism, i.e. the expropriation of the property of employers and the negation of their rights.

      • eddie47d

        Sure Jeff for police and firefighters or didn’t you get the memo?

      • JeffH

        eddie, no I didn’t get the memo…but…at least, unlike you, I get it!

    • diamond1957

      the decline of the middle class will happen at the hands of a repressive government, and unions will aid them. their collusion is a conflict of interest, so are banks and pharmaceuticals, etc….. we must redefine the role of government as it was originally envisioned, put and maintain it in its rightful place, we must take back the power this federal government has claimed and taken unto itself.

  • Bob

    The Civil War was fought to free the slaves. Todays unions are the new slaveowners, the forced union workers the new slaves.

    • http://boblivingstonpl.wordpress.com Bob Livingston

      Dear Bob,

      You write: “The Civil War was fought to free the slaves.” You are incorrect.

      Best wishes,
      Bob

      • MAP

        I was going to counter that claim myself, Bob. But I figured it wasn’t worth the time to explain.

      • Hey you

        As I understand, the Civil War was fought to “Save the (USA) Union”.

        I have yet to logically figure out why.

      • Ted Crawford

        ” To save the union ” was the justification for the Union Forces. To ” Protect the Tenth Amendment ” was the motive of the Confederacy.

    • eddie47d

      The Right To Work folks are the new slave owners. They always take away rights,delete or water down safety rules and pay less. Their concern is strictly for the owners not for the employees.

      • Ted G

        Eddie, there is a big difference between public sector unions and private sector unions. You are deliberatly obfuscating, Also most of the weak points in supporting the unions you are trying to make are no longer true in today’s times. They may have been once, but are no longer relevant. Even then they would only apply to the private sector.

      • MAP

        Eddie, your reasoning is backward to say the least. “Their concern is strictly for the owners not for the employees”. These are GOVERNMENT workers. WE are the owners. This is OUR money we are talking about. You take a stand against the taxpayer? Against yourself? What a lamebrain argument!

      • eddie47d

        I’m not working against my own best interest (taxpayer) for I believe every worker deserves a decent livable wage whether a government employee or a private sector worker. There was a time when government workers weren’t getting paid squat and unions changed that. If they are over demanding today then they rightfully should be asked to give back. If not leave them alone.

      • Oneguess

        Yep, MAP. A lame-brained argument from a lame-brain. That’s eddie47d for sure!

      • UWorlds1

        I work for a huge company now…with no union. We work 8 hours with no lunch breaks and two 10 minute breaks. I was going to complain about it at first, but everyone seems to go along with it. I need a job.

        • Liberty Lover

          Be grateful for the job you have in today’s economy, be grateful you don’t have to pay union dues, and be willing to vote with your feet if and when you can find a job with better conditions. It’s called the free market in labor.

      • Karolyn

        Uworlds – I believe it is law that workers be provided lunch breaks. I don’t know if it’s federal or state, but I do remember it from when I worked in NJ.

      • JeffH

        UWorlds1, I suggest you consult your states labor laws regardin breaks and meals.

        Federal law does not require lunch or coffee breaks. However, when employers do offer short breaks (usually lasting about 5 to 20 minutes), federal law considers the breaks as compensable work hours that would be included in the sum of hours worked during the work week and considered in determining if overtime was worked. Unauthorized extensions of authorized work breaks need not be counted as hours worked when the employer has expressly and unambiguously communicated to the employee that the authorized break may only last for a specific length of time, that any extension of the break is contrary to the employer’s rules, and any extension of the break will be punished.

        Bona fide meal periods (typically lasting at least 30 minutes), serve a different purpose than coffee or snack breaks and, thus, are not work time and are not compensable.

        Lunch and meal breaks are largely a function of state law, which means different states have different rules.

      • Karolyn

        UWorlds – I believe breaks are covered by OSHA. Report the suckers! Some companies will get away with whatever they can. Like the chicken companies in NC that were hiring illegals and having them work in poor conditions, cutting their fingers off, etc. Those people will do anything the company wants and take anything dished out. It was covered in a big expose in the Charlotte paper several years ago.

      • JeffH

        eddie has two things he holds very close to his heart…love of unions and environmental extremism.

        Those who don’t agree with eddie’s views are all for 3rd world slave labor at sub-poverty pay levels, unsafe work places and dirty air and dirty water. To eddie, that is what it means to be a conservative and sometimes even a libertarian…oh how the confused mind works.

      • eddie47d

        No confusion here Jeff you must be the one who was short changed. I know the good unions have done and when it comes to the environment I know the damages corporations have inflicted upon our surroundings. You on the other hand want companies to treat workers as serfs and the environment as a dumping ground.

      • Buster the Anatolian

        “We work 8 hours with no lunch breaks and two 10 minute breaks.”

        When I was in college I worked summers at a manufacturing plant. Those working in production did not have set lunch or other breaks. We worked 8 hours straight through. We were paid for our lunch time but took it when we could fit it into the production schedule. This was in a union plant although as a summer temp worker I was not in nor did I have to pay union dues.

        • UWorlds1

          So i guess you think it’s right to work eight hours with no lunch…you are a moron.

      • DaveH

        Apparently, UWorlds, the moron is you. If you weren’t you would simply seek another job that suited your requirements.

      • Buster the Anatolian

        DaveH, UWorlds1 certainly is a moron if he cannot read and comprehend any better than his last comment indicates. For his edification I did not say we not no lunch I said we got no formal lunch break but had to work it in as the production schedule allowed.

      • JeffH

        eddie says in response to JeffH: “You on the other hand want companies to treat workers as serfs and the environment as a dumping ground.”

        JeffH says in response to ignoramous eddie…thanks so much for confirming exactly what I said. :)

        Stupid is as stupid does! You just can’t be fixed.
        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fL6wbsGx9qw

  • HarryButtle

    “another victory for those of us who are sick of handing over our paychecks directly to the Democrat Party.”

    You’re kidding, right? The bottom 50% have 2 1/2% of the nation’s wealth. The top 1% have 42% and you think it’s poor people who are taking your money? Wow.

    60% of Wisconsin voters thought that the recall should be used only in case of corruption. If they only knew Walker’s aide had rolled on him and he’s now the target of a corruption investigation. The recall election did give Democrats control of the Wisconsin Senate.

    Exit polls showed President Obama with a big lead over Mitt Romney.

    Sources say Wisconsin Governor Scott Walker is Now the Target of Corruption Probe
    http://www.politiscoop.com/us-politics/wisconsin-politics/1435-sources-say-wisconsin-governor-scott-walker-is-now-the-target-of-corruption-probe.html

    The legal sources, who are not involved in Wisconsin’s recall, spoke on condition of anonymity. They said Walker faces “serious legal challenges,” including “a possible indictment,” regardless of the election results on Tuesday.

    If true, Republicans should be thanking the grassroots’ movement for this election and possibly removing Walker from office before charges are handed down, bringing embarrassment to not only the state, but the Republican Party.

    • MAP

      More crying and accusations from the losers on the Left. You people are so blind and deluded, you turn loss to victory. More proof of the fantasy land you live in. So begins another meaningless smear campaign. Democrats are entirely devoid of any hint of honor.

      • eddie47d

        IF Obama had gone to bat in the state of Wisconsin MAP would have been first in line to say that he used his influence to make a win for the Democrats.He wisely stayed out and let the Wisconsin voters decide for themselves. Except for the fact that outside Republican forces sent in limitless dollars to gain their win. The Republican Party bought their “honor” and in spades! Put that in your fantasy league!

      • MAP

        It’s over Eddie. Take your crying and whining to a liberal/communist/Democratic site. You merely make a fool of yourself.

      • nc

        Map. we Democrats know of our weaknesses and strive for the purity of the Republican Party as evidenced by the conduct of Spiro Agnew, Richard Nixon, Scooter Libby and that Republican Foley freak and the Republican Senator in the airport men’s room!
        We are also looking for a daddy’s boy with an MBA (?) who will lead us to another economic “paradise”
        Please tell us of the “honor’ of the above Republicans! Let the spin begin!!

      • MAP

        Nc,you are a Democrat? Then you must be a socialist, a pervert, a liar, a crybaby, a baby murderer, a fanatic, a parasite, a lunatic, a subversive, or a full-blown communist. I am not a Republican, therefore, have no one to answer for. You on the other hand….

  • SMSgt Z (ret) Nam 68

    One needs to inquire why workers had to form unions in the first place.One can be sure it was not do to the fact the owner of the factory,the mill ,the mine,the farm etc,etc WAS TREATING THE WORKER FAIRLY. YOU ALL NEED TO READ A LITTLE HISTORY ON WHY UNIONS HAD TO BE FORMED AND WHAT THE OWNERS AND POLITICANS DID TO TRY AND STOP UNIONS

    • SMSgt Z (ret) Nam 68

      Sorry WERE instead of WAS

      • Charles Kiser

        WAS is correct. The OWNERS WERE – the OWNER WAS. Another typical example of left wing idiocy.

    • Ted Crawford

      First off Sarge, thank you for your service! I did a couple of those vacation tours to Southeast Asia myself, not very enjoyable! !
      The deal here, as I see it, is the comparison between the private (priv) and public (pub) sector unions. Two examples of the differences between the two:
      First: A (priv) employee that dosen’t produce up to wage level is let go, if not the Contractor cannot compete and goes out of business! The (pub) employee that fails to produce to wage level, seemingly at least, can’t be let go! My example for this might be the recent GSA debacle. Not only did they revel in their slovenly behavior, they aggrandized it in a video! While there have been some resignations, to the best of my knowledge, no one has been fired or even disciplined yet!
      Secondly: The wages of a (priv) comes from the private sector not from the Public Treasury. Instead they are taxed on those wages and contribute into the Public Treasury- a net plus! The wages of the (pub) comes 100% from the Public Treasury, and then they return a much smaller portion back to the Treasury- a net negative

  • Kevin Beck

    Just wait until some State decides that all employees will be given their OWN retirement accounts instead of pensions that will be covered by the general taxation authority of the State!

    For all the still-stuck-in-the-union employees that are moaning about their union still collecting dues AND having to pay higher portions for their “benefits,” I have a question. Which is more important: Your union dues, or the contribution to your “benefits”? I suggest that if you could choose to drop one of those, you would drop your union dues. After all, do you really need those anymore?

    • eddie47d

      That depends on the company and how they treat the workforce. Most don’t need unions anymore at least those businesses who respect their employees and believe in a level playing field. Unfortunately there are still laborers in the USA who work hard and receive extremely poor wages and not so good benefits or working conditions. Will those businesses wise up or do unions have to come in and do the job the owners should be doing themselves? .

  • Third_stone

    Why would people who supposedly love liberty and support the American way be against unions? Unions are a right won long ago by the working people who were beset by greedy employers under ruthless working conditions. Why would anybody want to throw that away? Unions used to provide the system for educating tradesmen. We are trying to destroy that, and the difference really shows in the trades people we can hire today.

  • Nottakenyan

    Those who profit the most from union dues are those working for the union organization,
    not the factory worker who is busting his/her hump 40 hours per week.

    • eddie47d

      Unions helped to bring those trade skills to the companies they worked for and the owners benefited. Years ago unions and management had a working partnership and everyone gained. Especially the economy and the Middle Class where those skilled jobs made America the number one producer in the world. Then we had greedy outside CEO’s who came in and cannibalized these smaller companies and sent the jobs overseas. The skilled labor dried up and schools dropped shop classes. The man who worked with his hands became a second class citizen and looked down upon as lazy and worthless. Yet the CEO’s on Wall Street made their 30 pieces of silver off of foreign workers and America went into decline. The Elites won and America is not for the better.

  • Frank E.

    Everyone ties elections to who outspends who? How crazy is that? The socialist media just loves that since eveyone’s money flows to them. It’s the “quality” of the message, not just the “quantity”. People who have been forced to live in the socialist union world have not enjoyed it. This is America! Give people the right to chose without threats, intimidation, or violence is they want to join a union or not. It certainly appears the results speak loudly. When ever people are given a free choice to join or not, they chose not to. If unions were that good for “everyone” people would be flocking to them to join instead of running away like enslaved victims.

    • eddie47d

      When there were no unions folks had to work in company towns where they were obligated to the owner for everything. Their housing and all they bought was in their contract so how did that happy world of being intimidated,threatened and faced with violence by the owner work out for you. You were a virtual slave to that owner. Back then it wasn’t so easy to pack up the family and start over in another town. Unions changed all that and life improved.

      • UWorlds1

        Just like what they do in China now.

  • Alex

    I do not know of any credible people on the Left who did not find Tuesday’s results upsetting. Not sure who Chip Wood is talking about.

    Yes, it hurts pretty bad, but it is neither the death knell for union workers nor a preview of November.

    Voting women are not oblivious to the GOP’s War on Women (and their families). The recent GOP vote against equal pay for equal work will be hard to explain away for the next five months.

  • vanessa

    I am a teacher in a southern state. We pay 10% of salary per month to our pensions and a whopping 25% of our healthcare. I still felt like I got a good deal so I have NO sympathy for the ones who pay nothing.

    • eddie47d

      Please tell us which union members pay nothing. I don’t know of such a person or place.

      • UWorlds1

        And you’re probably poor but will vote republican!! I wonder how much the corporate hotshots in your southern states pay.

      • Buster the Anatolian

        UWorlds1-definition moron. Once again you show your moronic stupidity. She said NOTHING about the corporate world she said she was a teacher.

    • Jeff

      First, yours is the attitude they corporatists want – “they’ve got a better deal, so screw them!” When you should be saying “they have a union that sought a better deal for them, we should try to do the same.” Second, my sympathies for having to live in the South.

      • Buster the Anatolian

        “Second, my sympathies for having to live in the South.”

        My sympathies for your ignorance or should I say stupidity. I live in the South and the only thing wrong with it is all the dam yankees that come here to escape conditions in their northern cities then try to change us to be just like what they fled from.

  • http://yahoo bob peters

    I am a union member 35 years,.,,Sorry it has gone communist! Long live gov. walker

    • eddie47d

      …and Corporate America has gone Fascist. The American worker is owned by Wall Street and the Elites. Some benefit but more are losing out to their excessive salaries and outsourcing. Gov Walker is now one of those Elites because of those ties.

    • UWorlds1

      After 35 years of enjoying union wages you will retire at a union wage. If you are against communism why didn’t you quit long ago. I bet you will enjoy that union wage when you retire. But now you don’t want to pay taxes so someone else will enjoy a union wage. This is what it is really about. You have got yours, damn everyone else!!

      • Deerinwater

        So you tell us what is wrong with union wages ~ I’ll wait ~

  • Jay Lowell

    People wake up,your being tax to death so your Public employee brother inlaw can seat on his ass and collect a fat pay check and a lottery like pension at your expense.Public employees should be paid far less then the private sector.So called public servants work less and have built in job security and have a management structure that is not accountable.Private sector employees are only as good as there last days accomplishments and have to preform at a much higher level just to stay employed.Small business owners have it even harder,having to take risk with capital and also carry a heavier work load.So stop your whining and be happy with the Public service job you have.Soon they will be obsolete,as the working class who support you wake up to this con game.

  • Liberty Lover

    Collectivism breeds mediocrity always and everywhere, whether on a macroscopic (communist nations) or microscopic (unions) level. Even from a historical perspective, unions are given much more credit than they deserve. Much of what they have purportedly accomplished would have (and did) come to pass through employer competition for the best workers.

  • Chester

    If you want to work in a place that has a union contract guaranteeing certain working conditions and pay levels, why should you not pay for that privilege, just like the people who were there when it was agreed to? Too many think they are guaranteed all these things whether they support the union or not, but work in an equivalent shop with NO union contracts and see what the pay and working conditions are like. More likely than not, you will not be happy with what you find. There are some exceptions, but they do more to prove the rule than disprove it.

  • ArkansasRebel

    The history of the formation of the first unions show a very strong communist influence was involved. Check it out. Then look at some of the union demonstrations where the demonstrators are openly carrying banners & placards supporting the communist ideology.
    I grew up in Calif. where visitors frequently commented about how great the highways were. Past tense. About 15 years ago the Cal Trans union workers got an initiative up to put maintainence of the highways into the hands of Cal Trans. Since then the roads have continued to degrade. The quality of repair is just not there anymore & in my estimation Calif. now is among the states with the worst roads. Yes, I have sampled some, not all, of the states roads. Four years ago I did a driving vacation which covered 21 states & with the exception of one or two all had better roads than Calif.
    Also, though not a union member myself, I have had some experience with unions. I worked many years in construction & on more than one occasion had to drive around the work site to a non-union gate to get access to work. I asked one of the picketers why they were protesting & he said because my boss was not paying union wages. When I asked how long he had been working as a carpenter I discovered that he had more experience than me & yet he, as a union worker, was making LESS than me. Was he
    ever shocked.
    I also want to share the experience of my father, a devoted union employee. He worked
    most of his life in a foundry & had one of the most dangerous, dirtiest, & hottest jobs. He
    ran the cupola. Yet his pay was far below some of the workers pay, like the grinders who
    were the highest paid. He took his complaint to the union representatives repeatedly but
    all he got was platitudes. They said they couldn’t do anything about it, that he was being
    paid according to his union grade. He finally got fed up & went directly to his boss & told
    him that he deserved more for his work & his boss was immediately agreeable & told my
    father that he had “wondered if you would ever stand up & ask”. He got a $3 per hour
    raise on the next check.
    Unions had their place & still do. There was terrible abuse of workers & workers had few
    rights. However, they have grown far beyond where they were helpful & have become detrimental. When a union strike can cripple an entire nations economy, like the Teamsters, it is nothing short of extortion. Unions still have their place in preventing employers from taking unfair advantage of employees but it is now time for some limits on the power of unions to take advantage of employers.

    • eddie47d

      Don’t be even suggesting that unions are to blame for crappy roads. Every state has had some budget problems and voters don’t always approve of bond issues to allow those roads to be repaired. Transportation funds have to be approved before work begins so look at the citizen of each state for that answer.

  • Neil

    Maybe Hoffa was looking in a mirror when he said something about, “time to take these sunny beeches out.” (Sounded like “sunny beeches”, anyway.)

  • Bob

    I will never forget when I was 18, quite awhile back, I was hired as a warehouse worker pulling orders for differant stores. Trying to do be a good worker I filled 5-6 orders a night. I noticed the others were only doing 3-4. I was told to slow down, I didn’t realize why. That is until the next to the last day before I was to be accepted into the Union. That is when I was called into the office and was told that several of the other workers had complained about me and my work. Included in these people was the union rep. who I worked with. So I lost my job, I was later told by a person that worked there that it was actually because I did not listen to them when they told me to slow down and pull less orders. That They were not going to have anyone make them look bad, This statement was said by the company”s union Rep. that I worked with.

    • Liberty Lover

      Similar deterrents to productivity are repeated innumerable times a day throughout this land. My son experienced it several times during his pre-management work experiences.

  • Alfredo

    I can’t wait for the day we don’t have anymore union thugs in this country. Unions are a thing of the pass and all they do today is make things more expensive and complicated.

    • UWorlds1

      Without workers making a decent wage goods will not be produced because there will be no disposable income. Do you think the United States will survive with the only people making money are the top 3%?

  • dp

    unions are totally anti American, more pay or benefits for less work, how does that effect the company’s competitiveness, you choke your own company, then they go out of business. F-You, When the big three were gearing up, men flooded off the farm and had lines going for miles to get into the shop, few years later they strike, they were dieing to get those jobs and not sod-bust anymore, and the next thing you know, they want more, NO DAMN BODY WAS HOLDING A GUN TO THEIR HEAD SAYING THEY COULDN’T QUIT AND RETURN TO THE FARM STEAD. That is the free market, you can quit and start your own or quit and get something else, or quit and starve YOUR choice. YOUR NEIGHBORS DON’T OWE YOU A THING. YOU HAVE NO HONOR! And another thing Gov service is suspost to be just that, Service, for what ever pay, that’s the point. What possible right do you have of raising taxes of your neighbor in a non-competitive field? again F-You, you want the privet sector who are in the real world to feed your family, you should give them the keys to your house and bed room too, cuz you are not providing, they are. You are sickening to every real man out here.

    • UWorlds1

      What’s UnAmerican is the top 1% making all the real money while the rest of us go into debt.

      • Opal the Gem

        Oh shut up. That song fell off the charts 3 years ago.

  • http://northwoodsmomblog.blogspot.com/ Tanya

    In a free society there would be nothing wrong with workers joining forces to negotiate with employers, but we don’t have a free society. Anytime government gets involved to try to make things “fair” it gets really screwed up. I’m from Wisconsin and I’ve watched this fight going on in my town. In my opinion, a lot of money just got wasted to reelect the governor we already elected, and those who wanted it in the first place are still whining. I wish we would all direct our energy and finances to actually get liberty, not politics.

    • Liberty Lover

      In a free society, employers would be free to fire any employee who chose to join a union.

    • UWorlds1

      I live in Wisconsin too…Walker is doing a lot more than gutting unions. Just wait till all of our parks are sold to the highest bidder.

  • FreedomFighter

    IMHO Unions once served a purpose, a great and noble purpose, protection of the working man, woman and child from predatory industry.

    In modern times unions are political organizations promoting communism and socialism run by self professed communist thugs.

    Laus Deo
    Semper Fi

  • Deerinwater

    “The paramount issue was whether the government could force someone to belong to a union in order to hold a job and deduct union dues from his pay without giving him any say in the matter.”

    No Chip, ~ that was not what was paramount. You are attempting to appeal to the individual with such a statement and while it does have some merit to it, it’s not paramount.

    But what was Paramount was to defunded the DNC by drive a stake though the heart of the Union.

    It would appear they have been successful at this at this point. Congratulations, it was a well orchestrated effort by national right wing interest and they have carried the day.

    Maybe there might come a day, we Americans can forego the election process all together.

    Is this present selection process, based on whom we like the least really working for you?

    Why not end the charade all together and install Mitt Romney at King, we can start accepting applications for Gentry and Court Jesters tomorrow.

    Allow me to be clear, I dislike Unions, like I would a biting dog, I tell my neighbors to control their dog or they won’t have a dog. Perhaps that is what has occurred here?

    Maybe they have out lived their usefulness in today’s world but that depends largely on management. If Walker is any example of this leadership, we’re in deep $hit. Walker has spent money he hasn’t had to spend. He’s reward his incompetent friends with staff positions and absorbent salaries, he’s punished his enemies with the power of office. He’s lied and defrauded not only fellow members of state government but the people that elected him to office.

    Now , if this is your kind of guy, I see some dark days ahead for everyone.

    http://youtu.be/N5Up-k4Lho8

  • Mis

    Thank you Wisconsin!!! This gives me hope we can take America back in November!!!!

    • nc

      Mis, something in the back of my mind keeps telling me that those who want to take America BACK in November are the SAME people who lead us to January 2009! How would you describe those conditions? Something we want to go BACK TO???
      Give up the fact that jobs being added are now greater than jobs being lost and go BACK to losing as many as 600,000 a month? Really??? Give up the gain of the stock market and go BACK to the 6547 level of the Dow?? Put our troops BACK into the hell hole of Iraq where the generals said our Republican commander in chief was making MORE terrorist than he was killing?

      • Deerinwater

        They have forgot that already nc.

        They have listened to 3 1/2 years of huffing and puffing, lying and bs, ~ Republicans are easy to program, they have an hyperactive fear and hate trigger that is very easy to access and overrides all reason as they seem to go around looking for something to hate and fear. They want to be considered “victims” and void of any and all ‘guilt”. In that way, everything is always someone else’s fault. They “are” victim but of their own doing and the way they see the world they live in.

        When Wisconsin’s don’t see their state taxes go down, the administration will blame democrats and the state Republicans will all agree.

        That seems to be the nature of the beast and I don’t expect it to change in my lifetime.

  • Deerinwater

    We could not get Ron Paul elected regardless, ~ the best man for the job was never offered to us ~ so what victory can you make out of Wisconsin today?

    http://youtu.be/yNDMeB3tp-I

  • brett

    i would still much rather choose the lie of the audacity of hope and change than continue with the lie of trickle down capitalism which has made this country poor and subservient while the captains of global industry get richer. our economy was much stronger when your average pay check could pay the bills and save money. now it’s multiple income families, credit card debt, auto leases, student loan debt, and underwater home mortgages. shame how long it’s been to choose between the lesser of two evils. especially when most whom do vote, do so by voting for whom ever bidded the most.

    • Liberty Lover

      It is the audacity of utopian hope and change (three generations of it) that has brought this country such an intractable economic mess. True capitalism (i.e., true freedom) has never been tried in this world, but when we came close, in America, we produced the greatest good for the greatest number of people that has ever been seen. Ignorance and misunderstanding of history (carefully cultivated by “progressives” over time) is the bane of today’s human existence.

      • brett

        utopian day dreams is the best you have to offer? i had hoped for more substance. true capitalism profit rolls back into the economy through investment in infrastructure, training and education, and higher fair incomes, not pooling, collecting profit at the top.

      • eddie47d

        That “greater good” Liberty Lover was achieved back in the late 50′s to the early 70′s when unions were strong and the Middle Class thrived. Unions helped create that bonanza right along side the business owners.

  • Polski

    The unions got greedy? None of the union workers, including the union bosses, get $29 million a year salary like some CEOs. Unions are not necessary? Tell that to Boeing workers. You can get the benefits by yourself, in a company with 150,000 workers? Come on now, with that kind of thinking not even Walmart will hire you.

  • http://yahoo Gene Lewis

    Wow! Finally – an “opening”.
    Take a look at California, why not?
    Beginning in 1938, run by the Democrats.
    Say “Democrats” – you’ve said “Unions”.
    Jerry Brown not only can’t bust the unions in government?
    The unions put him into office; what should we expect?
    Actually, the Brown Dynasty has been in business here, FOREVER.
    And the Democrats have been in business here, FOREVER.
    Import more illegals – they’ll vote when they please.
    Rearrange voting districts? Who do you suppose they favor?
    It’s an interesting life, here in the Golden State.
    The gold here, though, is totally tarnished.
    Sparky.

    • Deerinwater

      The unions helped put Reagan in office as well.

      The unions helped put Kennedy in office, in both case they turned on Unions, so I’m not completely sure about the “point” you are attempting to make, much less if it’s valid.

    • eddie47d

      Enron and their Republican cronies manipulated California electrical rates and pocketed the money leaving that state in a mess. They still haven’t recovered from that debacle .

  • Paul Wells

    Good article, Chip. It was a resounding referendum, no doubt about it. But I might have to take a small exception to what the referendum was really all about. To me, it was about more than organized labor for government workers. What it said to me is, it’s moronic to try to impeach a sitting governor just because he has some attitudes and attempts to rein in spending by returning government unions to their rightful place. You may not like his policies, but it’s not an impeachable offense to try to balance Wisconsin’s budget by eliminating labor’s largesse and influence in public servant unions that quite possibly should not have ever been allowed to unionize in the first place! Firemen, Police and government workers jobs are deemed valuable enough that a strike would cause widespread pain, therefore they should not be allowed to even unionize, because the threat of a strike looms, once they do. In short, just because your position is unpopular amongst certain union members, is no grounds for impeachment. Fraud, corruption, and incompetency are, however, and the union thugs were unable to demonstrate any of that. However, if that same flashlight were shined back at union stewardship at the top, I feel confident that all three would be found, in copious quanitities!

    • Deerinwater

      True, but committing deliberate fraud is. To be the victim of a bait & switch scam to gain office is met with a degree of displeasure and disenchantment.

      That Walker offered lucrative “deals” and concessions to business he didn’t have the money to pay for without bothering to consult the community and their elected Representative in times of budget shortfalls, in some gamble and claim he was doing what was best, is what placed his head on the chopping block and created this debacle and waste of both time and money.

      To get this money, Walker sought concessions from union workers, when they accepted the concessions, Walker pushed even harder, showing contempt and demanded the end to negotiated bargaining. Rightly or wrongly so, Walker lack of good faith in these negotiations set the stage for a battle that cause his state to spend only more money needlessly.

      It is yet to be seen if the “business concessions” actually serve the people of Wisconsin but that is no longer even the issue at hand.

      Without much outside of state money, power and influence , Walker would be history today.

      When this outside political machine comes to your home state and affects it’s will, I hope you enjoy it. Just keep some Vaseline handy.

      So much for small government and states rights ~ The GOP is all about money and what money can buy.

      Not that I really care or this notion is some kind of revelation. We are all Pawns, you haven’t won anything other then advancing the final end game solution.

      You see gains where there are none unless you believe minimal, wage employees will improve the workings of your government, schools, police , firemen and administration.

      These saving will in up in someone else pocket not yours while you will pay more and get less for your “fine” efforts. You have just been snookered by the GOP.

      • Paul Wells

        Interesting ideas, that you have put forth Deerinwater, and they have some merit. However, let’s just get down to the facts. One fact is, Wisconsin was in terrible shape. Their budget was busted, and they spent way more then they took in (this should sound familiar, for it’s exactly the same shape that the Federal Budget is in). Now, because of these developments in Wis. (regardless of how you perceive them to have been won), some property taxes have gone down, the budget is no longer a shambles, and WI is actually one of the shining examples that a state government CAN live within in means. I know that perhaps doesn’t fit in with your world view, since you have obvious contempt for the GOP. Results are results, however, and in this case, Walker got it done!

      • DaveH

        Walker should simply sub out the work to private companies which would do the same tasks more efficiently, and there wouldn’t be the conflict of government officials deciding pay rates with other peoples’ money (the taxpayers).

  • Ron

    When I got the e-mail “LIBERTY ALERT!!!” crowing about “The Beginning of the Unions’ End, I wasn’t sure exactly what it was talking about…

    1. Was it crying out in glee over the demise of organizations designed to protect workers’ rights?

    It reminded me of the smirky mean-spiritedness of the Nazis’ killing the German labor unions the day after May Day, 1933.

    They celebrated the freedom of the German worker to labor for big industry on big industry’s terms, liberated from the parasitic organization that sought to give them the 40 hour work week and similar outrages.

    The next day, Sturmabteilungen members–simple, honest Germans exercising their Second Amendment Liberties–showed up with guns and clubs and closed down the union offices forever.

    Within months, treasonous union leaders and rebellious workers and enemies of freedom everywhere would be sent to concentration camps to join a vast Right-To-Work program that liberated millions all over Europe, giving them the freedom to work in the Nazi war machine until they died.

    OR:

    2. Was it referring to the End of the Union–as in, the United States of America?

    When the Traitor, Abraham Lincoln, (I’m told they even named a political party after the wicked evilduer..) invaded God’s Holy Confederacy and redistributed their wealth (libtards call it “freeing the slaves”), RealAmericans throughout the South rose up to smite the infidel and send him packing back North where he could mind his own business. If God had wanted the slaves free, he would have made them white and wealthy.

    Today, we stand at a threshold where, on websites like this one, New Confederates stand armed and ready, like one mighty, holy Klan of olde, to go to war with America and, as Lord Limbaugh likes to cry: “Destroy The Bastards!”

    It is the beginning of the end of the United States of America, and the Rise of the Confederate States of America–Right, White, and 100% Uppity-ness Free!

    • Peter LOCKE

      Golly Ron,
      Profiled you pretty fast! Seems we’re not on the same track, maybe not even in the same universe.

      • Ron

        Well, thanks for profiling me! Profiling is always good, right?

        Can I get a doctrinaire litmus test or a knee-jerk reaction as a side order with that?

        Re: Universe–

        I’m from the America in which Dwight Eisenhower could still be a Republican.

        Since he gave the first Farewell Address since George Washington and used it to warn that America was being hijacked by a arms industry corporatocracy who would take over the government and turn the entire country into slaves for it’s corporate greed, redistributing the wealth of the entire country into their pockets…

        …I don’t think he could be a Republican nowadays…HIS profile would surely require that he be Swiftboated in the South Carolina primary…probably for mental disorders he picked up in his military service and maybe even negritude and miscegination?

    • eddie47d

      Why Peter you don’t think the Koch’s and others want to destroy the unions as the German dictator did. There are plenty of evil plots going on out there so what is the scheme behind their take no prisoners attitude?

    • MAP

      Ron, you have totally lost your mind. Seek help.

      • Ron

        Thanks! After reading this, I realize that the Nazis DIDN’T destroy the unions. That was just stuff made up in liberal history books and Nuremburg Trial records, etc.

        But *shhh–don’t tell people on this site that Lincoln wasn’t a traitor–’cause I’m pretty sure there’s a big movement afoot to recook the history books (mises.org, for example–quoted with increasing frequency on here) that he was the Greatest Evilduer America’s ever known…until Obama, of course.

        But just keep that between you and me, okay?*

      • MAP

        Ron, you are sick. Seek help. Your liberal, delusional dream world has taken a twist to the weird. Seek help.

    • Larry M.

      Well your on the Watch List for sure. A Good Place for you to be. Secession for Southern Prides Sake is just another Evil Thought. The only Justify able Reason for Secession is when the USA is Drawn into The North American Union or The New World Order.

      • DaveH

        Evil is Forcing people to be part of a Union that they don’t want to be a part of, and killing 600,000 people in the process. We fought 2 wars in the last 60 years to give that right to other countries’ citizens (Korea, Vietnam). Or so the official line went.
        At any rate, Larry, do you also think that husband and wife should be forced to stay together? Don’t tell me it’s different, because it isn’t. The Principles are the same.

  • Jeff

    The Wisconsin workers and middle class shot themselves in the foot when the voted Walker in, they shot themselves in the head when they kept him. The inherent stupidity of those who think the corporations are more suited to looking out for them in place of a collection of, get this – workers, astounds me. It’s saying we’re to dumb to work for our own rights (unions)

    • Deerinwater

      That’s kinda the way I see it as well Jeff. I don’t know exact what to make of the people of Wisconsin actually, not with the way this has all went down and what few people from Wisconsin that I’ve met personally. Not exactly the sharpest tools in the tool box.

      Walker should not have been that hard to size up, hell bells look at him. Limp wrist snot nose lingerie salesman that’s never done a hard days work in his life. Dairy Farmers don’t have be smart just strong and committed. I guess that makes up half the state.

  • Peter LOCKE

    Don’t forget, there was a reason for the creation of unions. The problem is, that the unions quickly adopted the tactics of the corporations they were created to counter! Sure, there is a place for VOLUNTARY UNIONS, but mandatory union membership never was a good, or moral, idea. Don’t be too dead set against the idea of a union, but bring the concept back to voluntary membership.

    • Ron

      There! I can totally agree with you on that!

  • DaveH

    That is great news, Chip. Thank you.

  • uvuvuv

    as depicted in the book, the jungle, which no leftist has ever read, they have oprah for their core beliefs, companies back then purposely paid their workers too little for them to make it without long hours or second jobs. this kept them docile, on their toes. it upped the profits. win-win. but with ww2 companies with defense contracts to fulfill had to pay everyone more to keep them on the job. and they discovered, as henry ford did 3 decades previously, that happier workers are more productive and dependable, and their profits were actually higher. sales were up, people had money. this led to the unimagineable generosity of the 50s, where workers got paid vacations and they had enough money to actually go on vacation, leaving behind their bright new ranch homes on pleasant quiet streets. this is when the afl-cio started losing ground.

    • brett

      i’m not sure where your going with this, but i will agree that the old capitalism model was infinitely better than trickle down which is the root of all our woes today.

  • BobB

    Only one thing to say:

    “Life in the Iron Mills” by Rebecca Harding Davis

    Read it, and then complain about unions. I dare ya.

    • Ron

      Hey. Rick Santorum promised us we don’t have to have an education.
      That includes reading books.

      The only good book is a burning book.

      Books and information lead to differing opinions and subtle nuances and grey areas and compromises and–

      *BAM!* Next thing you know?
      You’ve got uppityness and snobbery.

  • uvuvuv

    i deliver papers to this teachers union hdqtrs, with 6000 members. if they pay $1000 per year in dues, that’s a budget of 6 million. but their building is like a large house, not even brick but wood. maybe assessed at 200 thousand. so what are they doing with all that money? oh, they had big signs out, recall walker, sign the petition here. it boiled my blood the way they made such a big circus of it, standing on street corners and jumping like monkeys holding their signs. is this how you conduct a serious undertaking like this? with whooping and hollering and beating drums in the capitol? none of them probably even noticed the green veined florentine marble pillars. and the shimmering floors of pink granite. and the gold leaf balustrades. they were and are coarse and crude animals. and you know, thinking about it, in all the photos i never saw any blacks, to their credit.

    • UWorlds1

      What do blacks have to do with these…and furthermore you make no sense. If is wasn’t for outside money Walker would not have won. Period.

    • UWorlds1

      The way you write you really do NEED a public education and quit worrying what black people are doing. Please pick up a writing book.

  • oldbutnotadumbass 2012

    There is a upside,and down side to everything.Unions have their place,but you shouldn’t have to be forced into one,for any kind of job period!!!

    • Thinking About

      Another promoter of welfare, don’t ask me to help push the wagon but ready to ride for free.

  • http://georgewfitz.wordpress.com yutts

    We are finally getting back to where we were when Ronald Reagan left office. Who’d of thought it would hgave been triggered by a Republican Governor, and a band of union thugs that dug their own graves.

    I honestly believe that the typical liberal, democrat and union member does not realize that the “average guy on the street” is fed up with the depth that this country has been allowed to fall. The electorate gave Obama a chance to return it to normalcy and what did they get in return; a country that has been brought to it’s knees by a Marxist / Socialist. This recall fiasco in Wisconsin is just the final flag in one race; and it’s red, not checkered.

    Be prepared for one last battle Mr and Mrs America this summer. We’re going to have to get through one more upheavil at the political convention in Tampa and then again before, during and after the elections. Between the union thughs, the OWS Anarchists and the blacks, I’m afraid we’re going to have race riots that will make those of the 60′s look like a Boy Scout Jamboree. After we get through that, we can begin to rebuild and return our nation to it’s place of prominence in the world. KEEP THE FAITH!

    SEND NO INCUMBENT BACK TO WASHINGTON IN 2012!

    GOD SAVE OUR NATION!

  • UWorlds1

    Why do you your kind of people always bring up black people. I’m black and believe me I will not waste my time on trying to kill a dummy that would vote for Romney. I figure you will get yours soon enough. More tax breaks for the rich, more deregulation for wall street, more power to the few. America is going down with the help of people that keep voting these type of people into office. Do you actually think Romney cares about giving you a job? If he did he would be spending the money he has in investing in the private sector instead of building another house. Black people have known along time that the U.S. is being bought by the highest bidder. It’s white people that still believe in the dream. Wake up fool.

    If anyone will start a race riot it will be you, not me and not anyone I know.

  • 44 year Fed Employee

    Chip and all the others let me tell you how I feel about this Mandatory Union thing. After graduating for high school, I spent my first 20 years in the service of the United States as a Military man. No unions but strict discipline. Never hurt me or anyone that I know of that did their job. It is my humble opinion, for what it is worth that we the US of A needs to go back to mandatory service of some sort for all 18 through 24 year olds. Be less drugies, more respect for elders and better work habbits. But that is a subject for another day.
    After I retired, I went back to college part time and worked full time at various jobs for 5 years. Then at age 43 I went to work for the US Posral Service. Still had my great work ethic and respect for the bosses. Yes I joined the union. Because of my great work ethic and background I worked my way up the line to be a line supervisor and then to be a Postmaster. As a union employee I paid my dues and went to all the meeting. But when I started supervising the other folks I worked with I saw just how mean and crazy thinking the unions were. Every time I turned around a grivence for this or that was filed, non amounted a hill of beans nor were they ever forward up the chain out of the office because they were frivelious and squashed at the loacal level in accordance with the union contract.Then as a Postmaster we had an organization but no rights to bargin with management or the Postal Service. They did consultations but if the Post Service said no, we had little or no recourse to fight it.

    I said all that to say this. Now today, most of my fellow middle managers, Postmasters in small offices have been given notice by the Postal Service that their job is no longer needed and they are being told to take a RIF by June 2014 or they are gone. The Postal Service is really in trouble financially and they are taking it out on the very folks that kept the service going with high marks for great service. They desperately wanted to void all union contracts, some they had just renewed this year. however the Unions fought them in the halls of Congress and guess how Congress voted. No. the POstal Service could not desolve the contracts. So now the service of several thousands of non-union middle managers are going to be be put out on the streets – more Obama economics.

    So the unions have or should I say had a place in the work force, however from what I have witnessed over the past 20 or so years what ever the unions wanted, they got. It was always give me for me and not give back. I witnessed that mentality in the union meetings when I was a member and I can not tell you how shocked I was to see some of the stuff they would pull the get what they wanted. I witnessed many times when they did not get all they wanted and it went to arbitration, normally the arbitrator sided with the unions.

    Unions have a place but it should NEVER be mandatory and they should work side by side with non-union members, but do they? Not if the can help it.

    Keep up the great reporting Chip and let us all strive to make sure we do NOT have to endore another 4 years of Obama economics..

    • Thinking About

      If non union members did not receive the welfare of union member efforts it would be fine with the union members if they did not receive the same benefits. Like welfare then continue to think those who do not want to do anything for themselves but live off those who do work, your own welfare nation.

    • http://wildeyguns.com Wildey

      There are I believe 18 states that have right to work laws. Although they are caught up in the godless socialist agenda, they are in far better shape than the rest. By far companies looking to build businesses are starting them in those states rather than union run states.

      • UWorlds1

        Why are there so many working poor in these Right To Work states??

      • Deerinwater

        Well? there is only so many government jobs to be had ~ and now even government work won’t be require to pay a livable wage. ~ It’s going to be interesting to see how that works out for everyone.

        For the welfare state of Arizona where government is the second largest employer in the whole state especially.

        These people “think” they are going to receive lower taxes. When taxes don’t come down, I wonder how they plan to explain it?

        • UWorlds1

          America is unsustainable on the wages they are paying today. I worked help desk for many years. Most of it is contract work. When I started out I was paid 25.00/hr, which is fair. Now the average wage is 15.00/hr and they want you to have more skills.

      • Liberty Lover

        Compare the economic growth metrics of right-to-work states with those of their unenlightened counterparts and the advantage is very much with right to work. The same is true of “red” states versus “blue” states.

        • Eric Jones

          Right to work laws exist ONLY to DIVIDE the working class and you my freind are only helping them.

          • Liberty Lover

            Right-to-work laws exist ONLY to promote freedom, Eric.

          • Eric Jones

            If by freedom you mean giving big buesness the”freedom” to deny the working class ther basic human rights then i could not agree more.

          • Liberty Lover

            Eric, poor misunderstanding Eric, by “freedom” I do indeed mean the freedom of any employer to exploit his workers outrageously to the point where no reasonable man would work for him and he would thus go out of business, and I also mean the freedom of each reasonable person to refuse employment by such an employer? What part of freedom do you no understand?

          • Eric Jones

            I may be all of 19 but i think more about freedom then you do about god or guns and i have realised that the PURIST form of freedom is the freedom to stand together in solidarity which for workers is capible ONLY through unions.

          • Liberty Lover

            I am very glad to hear you are only 19, Eric. It makes me more inclined to forgive both your errors of spellling and your errors of logic. I viewed the world largely as you do when I was a lad of 19, proving I have a heart. My views changed by the time I was 30, proving I also have a brain. I wish you all the best in evolving similarly.

          • Eric Jones

            I have already apologised for my spelling and will not do so again BUT let me make one thing perfectly clear i highly suspect that i will have a lot of the same veiws when i am your age as i do now. p.s i must give you credit for the refrence to Winston Churchill that being said i must respectfully disagree with you both.

          • Liberty Lover

            Please don’t be so pessimistic regarding your intellectual growth, Eric. ;) Seems I have more faith in you than you do!

          • Eric Jones

            pessism? i prefer the term sticking with the truth.

      • DaveH

        What’s “fair” to you, Uworlds, might not be “fair” to your employer. And it’s Their money.

      • DaveH

        Argentina was the 10th largest economy in the world in the early 1900s. Now they’re in the high 30s. Why? Because their Government followed the same Progressive agenda that the Progressives want us to follow here. Big Government meddling in the Marketplace robbed Argentinians of their wealth.

  • UWorlds1

    Why aren’t you people complaining about the salaries CEOs are making instead of people that are trying to make a living wage? We need middle class wages. All you people are concerned about are black people (who have nothing to do with unions), and a race war (whidh have nothing to do with unions either).

    • http://wildeyguns.com Wildey

      You’ve got a point. It’s because of the way management treated labor that the unions came in the first place. We’ll either learn to live together or we’ll die together.

    • Paul Wells

      Perhaps because complaining about CEO’s exorbitant salaries does nothing to improve the human condition? I agree things are out of kilter in this country when a CEO makes thousands of times the salary of the lowest paid employee. Somewhere inside every company is a board of directors who okays these exorbitant salaries. But I presumed you wanted to do something that would actually make a difference for the wage slaves out in America more prosperous and share to a greater degree in the success of the company?

      • Thinking About

        It is a lot of board members who give raises to their friends who in turn go and vote for other executives to have outrageous wages. It is like a merry-go-round. For all who are complaining of union members being paid too much and not working, we see a lot of executives with much larger salaries and does not perform and then have a big golden parachute to bail out of the company on. When wages are as one sided as we have currently is preventing this ecomony from, the companies does not have anyone to sell to and therefore the ecomony is in the tank.

      • DaveH

        The owners of the company are the only ones who have any business at all with the salaries of their executives. If they deem that the executive is worth his pay, they will keep him/her. If they don’t, they won’t. But the CEOs’ pay rates are nobody else’s business.

      • DaveH

        From:
        http://mises.org/books/capitalism_kelly.pdf

        “True, executives may be paid dramatically more than workers,
        but they bring in dramatically more revenues to the company than do
        the workers (and dramatically more wealth to consumers in the form
        of more goods and services), as we have already learned. They are also
        paid, ultimately, for making sure that all of a company’s employees
        have continued employment at the company— good decisions mean
        continued jobs, bad decisions mean everyone is out of work. Executives
        should be compensated the going market wage for the work
        they do, and should not be compensated well, if at all, for incurring
        losses. But, their compensation should be decided amongst the shareholders
        (and their board of directors), since they own the company. Neither
        the government nor we citizens (unless we are direct shareholders)
        should have any input; this should be negotiated between the two private
        parties. It’s neither our company nor our money (until we steal it
        from shareholders and executives through taxes); it’s theirs!”

      • Thinking About

        The owners of a company, as in stockholders? Are you kidding? The public held companies are set by board members not by the stockholders who sit on several boards voting outrageous salaries for their friends who knows they will vote in kind when serving on other boards. If the salaries was set by stockholders there would be larger dividends and less raiding by the executives. I guess you got this information from mises, if you did they need to have better informations about American companies.

      • brett

        to daveh 105pm: checked you link and not surprised not valid reference. i wish i could say how often people seem to think that just because it’s on the web makes it real.

  • brett

    funny how we may never truly know what effect obama economics could have had because the powers that be have done everything in their power to maintain trickle down. this is why there’s been little if no change. do you all wish to live in a randian godless selfish society?

  • Thinking About

    For those who do not like untions, get out of the political parties or any other association you could ever name who joins together for a comman cause. They are all unions and yes even the Libertian Party. The recall cause in Wisconsin was not all in vane, now who is Walker going to run to get any of his agenda passed now, it will be the Democrats of Wisconsin, now he wants to sit down and have a party with the Democrats. Want to look to Walker as your hero, you can not soar with eagles when you dine with buzzards. For those who thinks all union workers are dumb and not moviated, they think the same of those who make those statements.

  • Ron

    To BobB:

    How DARE you mention books here. Rick Santorum promised us we didn’t need to get an education.

    That includes reading books. The only good book is one that’s burning.

    Books lead to ideas and contrary opinions and subtlety and nuance and grey areas and then *BAM*–you get compromise.

    Then it’s a slippery slope down to common ground and straight to the hell of uppityness and snobbery.

  • Ray Simons

    Rather than a Constitutional amendment (right-to-work) what we really need is a bill from Congress that interprets the Right of Free association to include the right not to associate. After all that is the reverse side of this coin and would also get rid of such things as the mandatory portions of Obama Care.

    • Liberty Lover

      Excellent idea, Ray!

    • Thinking About

      We should all have the right to free association, my right of not having to pay for the unisured and having the medical industry and insurance companies pass the cost of the uninsured on to myself who has insurance. If you don’t pay then you don’t get, it is a falsehood to think to even think you are only paying for the cost of your personal health care and the cost you pay does not include overhead which is from those who do not pay.

      • DaveH

        If you’re saying that Government should quit intervening in the Marketplace, so that people pay only for what they get, you are correct.

      • Thinking About

        I never mentioned the government interfering, let say this again as simple as possible, I do not like having to pay enough for medical care in order to cover those who use the services and do not pay. It may be Medicaid or higher bills from medical facilities because currently in order for the doors to stay open the payers has to absorb the cost of non payers services. They cry about having yompush or pull the wagon, just let them ride for free. Mandates may not be perfect but we need changes.

  • Palin16

    Back in 2002, I was forced to join a union (in California) under penalty of job loss for non-compliance. This particular union was chosen for us by managemant, to do their bidding. I filed a grievance once regarding pay raise issues. The union boss said this would be settled easily by the next Monday. When I phoned her, I got a voicemail stating she answered messages at 11:00 Am,1:00 PM and 3:00 PM. She did not respond to my phone message. I called again the next day with the same result. This went on everyday for the next 2 weeks. On the third week, she changed her phone message to state “Hi, I will be on vacation for the next 2 weeks. Leave your message at the tone.” Finally, after 3 months, she informed me that she was not at liberty to discuss my situation. Fast forward a year later, this same union phones me at home and says “I’m sure as a good loyal union member, I can count on you to vote NO on this “disastrous” Gray Davis recall election.”
    I said “No, you cannot count on me for that.” The union guy then says “OK, I understand. Will you please consider our democratic candidate Cruz Bustamante then?” I said “No, I will not vote for him either. Let me just end this call with these final words: Hasta La Vista, Baby.” Click!

    • Thinking About

      Why should you ger a free ride on the wagon unless you are willing to push or pull the wagon. You seem to think you are entitle to welfare on the back of others. And by the way, more than likely you could have been just as involved in the union as the representative you are complaining about. Again, don’t depend on welfare to carry you.

      • Palin16

        What are you talking about???

      • DaveH

        Don’t expect to understand the upside-down world of Liberals, Palin. To them bad is good, shut up means outstanding, and welfare is when you complain about not getting the services that you are forced to pay for.

      • Thinking About

        Palin you stated you was forced to join a union, you must think you should get a free ride, you got union benefits, you should nit be able to ride the wagon for free, you either need to push or pull the benefit wagon. There should not be a free ride. As far as Daveh he usually has to have everything explained two times.

      • Palin16

        DaveH, you’re right. Liberals think in reverse. When did I mention anything about welfare or free rides? I worked 32 years in health care, nothing was ever handed to me on a silver platter. The aforementioned union was corrupt as hell. When you work in a forced unionism state, the union bosses got you right where they want you.

    • Thinking About

      Palin you must have forgotten your earlier post saying you was forced to join a union, you go figure how is missing their own point, might be you.

      • Palin16

        Huh???

  • Larry M.

    In the Late 1800′s and early l1900′s ……. Child Labor and Mandatory 12 and 16 hour work days were the Norm. Corrupt Companies also set up Company Stores and Shack Like Company Housing for Employees that Drew In Employees into Indebtedness so bad that an Employee could Not Quit or walk away from one Employer to go to a New Employer.

    The Various US Labor Unions were the only ones who had the GUTS to Stand up Against Super Corrupt Corporations that had Workers by the Throat.

    Yes Today Labor Unions are on the Decline ……… but I can Absolutely Guarantee you this. IF our Nation with it’s Bankers/Corporations get much more Corrupt like they were 80+ years ago and WHEN another Huge Economic Crash Happens the average US Citizen will be so Broke, So Hungry, So Angry that Wall Street will wish they had Not messed with Labor Unions, …. and here is why.

    When the US of A Crashes Clear to the Ground the American People will be So Hungry and So Scared that they Will Embrace something Far Worse than Labor Unions. It is Called (Communism). It is Far Better to be Tolerant of Labor Unions than to Suppress Labor Unions and end up with an Angry Citizenry that will Surely Install Communism to Replace the Government of The United States of America.

    Allot of Solders and Marines Died Fighting Communism in Korea and Vietnam. Both Democrat and Republican.

    Better to be Tolerant of Labor Unions than to Anger the US Citizenry and they will Surely Eventually Turn to a Communist Far Left Alternative.

    If the Working Class/Middle Class get Shafted much worse then ya better get ready for a Revolution that will Surely Give Greedy Wall Streeters the Set Back of the 21st Century. The US of A is only One or Two more Economic Disaster away from a Revolution.

    Can you Greedy Wall Street Banks and Wall Street Corporations Stand up against the Wall in the Headlights and say Cheeze ?

    • UWorlds1

      That is very interesting. I find it also interesting that workers are in with the corporations in that they are making it easy for them to take advantage of workers. Workers are what make this economy. Without workers making a decent wage we cannot buy anything. All the money is in Wall Street, which produces nothing. Instead of bashing Unions we should be demanding that the people playing with the money we bailed them out with give it to the manufacturers and small businesses so they can create jobs.

      • Larry M.

        For over 150 years the Economic Engine for our Nation was the Manufacturing Middle Class. It was the Fair Day’s Pay for a Fair Days Work that allowed the Nation to Prosper so that the Giant Consumer Market could Thrive.

        For the Last 30 years the Rockefeller/Rothschild (Private) Council on Foreign Relations (CFR) and the Trilateral Commission (TC) has Exported about 80% of US Manufacturing to our Enemy’s in Communist China. The Best of the Very Best of our Nation’s High Technology has been Given FREELY to Communist China just so that Wall Street Investment Banks and Wall Street Corporations can have Easy Access to Ultra Cheap Near Slave Labor Pools.

        The Day of Reckoning is at hand. If the USA were to have to Fight a World War it is entirely Possible and likely that our Enemy’s would Win Against US because EVIL GREEDY Wall Streeters gave our Enemy’s our Technology and Manufacturing Sector. This Manufacturing Job Exportation Situation is so Serious and Huge that it is Nothing Less than TREASON Against the US Constitution and Her Citizen People.

        The US Consumer is on the Edge of the Economic Abyss while Wall Street Snickers and Chuckles as they have ….. so far …….. gotten away with Their TREASON.

        If or When the United States of America Economically Collapses then These TREASONOUS Wall Streeters should be put on Trial for Treason and Executed for having Destroyed The United States of America and all for GREED.

        Any one or any Corporate Organization that would Destroy it’s own nation shoud be given the HIGHEST Punnishment for Their Crimes against The United States of America.

        • Kevin Beck

          Don’t forget the most evil group of all: The Federal Reserve.

  • ergoetu

    Hi, When I was growing up, the best people worked in industry. The ones the industry didn’t want went to work for the government. Maybe there was some animosity there or whatever, but that was back in the 60′s and 70′s. Now that we are grown up, maybe this was their way to get back at those of us in the private sector. Now it looks as if we (the taxpayers) are getting back at them but there is still along way to go. San Diego and San Jose helped a little in the Kingdom of California, hopefully more cities and communities will get a clue and do things Walker already did, like lower property taxes, save school districts millions of $$, reduce debt and turn it into a profit for “rainy days”. I think Wisconsin is the tip of the iceberg and that along with the 2 Cali cities, we will look back in 20 years and wonder why it took so long for us to wake up.

    • Kevin Beck

      I had a similar experience, that I can summarize this way:

      Those who can, do.
      Those who can’t, teach (think: government schools).
      Those who can’t teach, are government slaves.

      That’s been my motto about education since I walked away from government schools.

      • UWorlds1

        I think you have just bashed a very fine profession…I would think Wall Street traders are worse than teachers.

    • UWorlds1

      Are you serious??? I live in Wisconsin, the only people making out like a fat cat are the corporations here that pay flat wages and expect more work. The real losers are the children of Wisconsin that will have a larger class size and teachers with lower skills.

      Corporations are already paying no taxes here. That’s why the budget was balanced on the backs of the public sector. It scares me to see what else Walker will do…but I am sure people like you are cheering while the big money people make out like bandits while working people will see more stagnant wages.

      • ergoetu

        I grew up in Wisconsin and left because there were no jobs unless you went to the dregs of Milwaukee or Kenosha. But in the real world of Wisconsin, which is the agricultural area of Central Wisconsin, unless your family had a farm or there was an opening at the paper mill, there were no jobs available, union or otherwise. That is the real life outside of the Fifedoms of Milwaukee or Madison. So I left to find out what the rest of the country had to offer. I found opportunity in Colorado and progressed up the job ladder until I got a “real” union scale job. Then the layoff came a year later and in a union shop, junior man goes first, so I got laid off. I joined the military, because at the time Colorado was in a recession and got to see the real world that most people don’t even hear about. It opened my eyes to what the US was going to go through and I didn’t like the liberal views that were being espoused by those pundits. Corporations pay taxes despite what you may think, look at the tax receipts that the US and State governments receive. Even the oil companies pay more in taxes in 1 day than the US taxpayers pay in the whole year. So take your liberal views and move to California or New York where they are the norm and leave the real part of the country to those that care what happens and don’t believe in your views.

        • UWorlds1

          I was in the military also…and I don’t know what you saw in your travels. What I saw were people struggling to make it.

      • http://www.facebook.com/Elwood2112 Ras Klent

        Wait, you REALLY think Big Oil pays more in taxes in one day than the entire country does in a year??? How stupid can you possibly be??? What planet do you live on? Even if that were true, oil corporations make BILLIONS of dollars while someone like you is making less than $100K. But if you’re stupid enough to believe anything then why do you deserve a decent wage in the first place? That money should go to the people who are smart enough to take advantage of all the idiots.

        • UWorlds1

          I didn’t say big oil pays more taxes than all the people in the U.S.

  • http://personalliberty.com Harry Best

    Right to work is, Plain and simple, the right to work for less money….this isn’t about unions, this is genocide on the middle class. The rich in this country dont want a middle class, just rich and dirt poor. when your children are hungry, you will work for food….wake up fools, we are being exterminated, ask anyone in a right to work state how hard it is to make your house payment on 5.00 an hour

    • UWorlds1

      In the meantime the working poor in Wisconsin is applauded the election of Walker and his Koch cronies. It is really unbelievable to me as a working person.

  • Debbie

    My husband is a union worker, when he worked non-union he worked for low wages, no health care benefits and long hours many times. Now that he is a union worker he has decent wages, and health care benefits and a 40 hour work week. So the union does have some good benefits.

    • UWorlds1

      Wow you sound real happy to have benefits :(

  • http://wildeyguns.com Wildey

    The vote in Wisconsin only proved that the godless socialist called democrats lies will find you out. People are finally realizing that they have to pay in spades for all the politicians freebies. The political overhead cost between 60cents and 70cents on every dollar they steal. It’s taken 100 years with the 16th Amendment, which WAS NOT RATIFIED by the way, for the people to wake up. Once the same rational gets by California, New York, Michigan, Illinois and their ilk I’ll believe America has a fighting chance. If politicians see their self preservation is backing what’s right, they’ll dump Obama like ———. After all the large majority of them are for sale to the highest bidder.

    • UWorlds1

      So now we will just have the godless neo-capitalists called republicans.

    • Thinking About

      The 16 Amendment was ratified March 13, 1913. This may not meet your approval but I doubt the ratification will be reverse on any one’s opinion.

  • UWorlds1

    @Dave H…true Free enterprise is not receiving government help. We haven’t had true free enterprise in decades. I think back in the 1890s was the last time there was true free enterprise.

  • brett

    there is good and bad capitalism, or does gov. perry not count. firestone, ford, and hershey are but a few examples of good socialist welfare capitalism. this trickle down capitalism is a good example of bad capitalism. it’s the root of the troubles we’re currently in. a vote for the gop will continue the few profiting off the labor of the many. maybe if everyone wasn’t so well trained to fear the boogie man they’d see that.

  • Rick Caston

    Folks I just scanned all of these posts. What is missing is a very important part of the union conversation. And that is the difference between PRIVATE sector unions and Public Sector Unions (Government). In the private sector there exist something I like to call the Golden Goose (the corporation). In the private sector, in order for the union members to benefit, the Golden Goose must be kept alive. In other words the company must be profitable in order to pay union salaries, benefits, etc. This fact keeps the unions in check….for the most part. (There are always exceptions.) So, the fact is that if unions push too hard, and management doesn’t do their job and protect the Golden Goose, they can KILL the corporation and everyone loses. So, for the most part union/company negotiations maintain an awareness of how far unions can push before they actually put the life of the corporation in jeopardy. Believe me when I say everyone at the negotiating tables knows exactly where that point is. It is NOT in the unions best interest to push so hard the corporation dies, destroying the jobs with it. As with anything there are exceptions. GM comes to mind.

    Now lets turn our attention to PUBLIC SERVICE (government) unions. Here is the most important aspect of the relationship between public service unions and their employer, THE GOVERNMENT. And where does the government (Golden Goose in this case) get it’s money? YOU!!! The taxpaying citizens of these United States. And how do they get this “revenue”? Through taxing me and you of course. Now here is the kicker. Can a private corporation simply create more income out of thin air if the unions push too far? Nope! They have to create more business and that ain’t that easy! How does the government create more revenue if it needs it? All together now, by raising OUR taxes (or lately, simply calling up Helicopter Ben to simply print more money!) In other words folks, public service unions have no need to worry about killing the Golden Goose does it? They can push for all the benefits, wages, and work rules it wants with absolutely no need to worry about where the money will come from. They have no worries about killing the Golden Goose as private sector unions must do.

    So there you have it. Because public service (government) unions know that the Golden Goose is you, the taxpayer, they have no worries about killing the Golden Goose. Therefore they can demand whatever level of pay, work rules, and benefits they want and the government has no real need to oppose them. They can simply raise revenues AT WILL through various means to cover it. This is why I believe that all Public Service Employee Unions should be outlawed. It’s a rigged system and the unions know it.

    I am 55 and when I was a young man nobody wanted to work for the government. Why? Because they were paid FAR LESS than similar jobs in the private sector. This is clearly not the case today as public sector unions have succeeded in turning the ratio completely upside down. Now everyone wants a government job because it pays so much more than a similar job in the private sector and has far more benefits at little or no cost to them. Why? Public Sector Unions!! It is time for Public Sector unions to be banned…PERIOD!

    My 2 cents,
    Rick

    • UWorlds1

      Government jobs don’t pay SO MUCH..they just pay MORE because the corportations have succeeded in keeping wages low. Which is not good for the economy. Why do you think there is such a big disparity between workers (including management) and CEOs.

      • richard brooks

        that is the reason that we continue to increase the number of immigrants to this country. it manipulates the labor pool. forcing job seekers and the employed to accept less while producing more.

      • Rick Caston

        You are kidding me right? Wages have been kept low? Compared to what? My father’s wages when he was alive? Mine when I was just entering the workforce? Do you really think the standard of living in this country is a result of having the lowest wages? Not even close. We have a high standard of living because we have the highest, or had, the highest productivity. This allowed the higher wages we have all enjoyed. And yes, the government unions are paid far more than their civilian counterparts for the same type of job and when you factor in fully paid retirement, health, and other benefits, plus lavish vacation civilians aren’t even close. In case you haven’t noticed, companies compete in a GLOBAL economy. Just who does the government compete against?

      • richard brooks

        wages have been kept low compared to cola. ( do you know what that is?) in comparison to wage increases of the upper management & elected officials. if we start with our grandfathers wages, apply cola increases, we would have a minimum wage of over $25/ hour.

        • Rick Caston

          We should not have a minimum wage at all. As with all other government interference it distorts the market, drives up costs, and decreases employment.

          • Liberty Lover

            Right on, Rick! The best way to address this minimum-wage issue is through reductio ad absurdum. If increasing the minimum wage has no impact on employment, why not raise it to $50 an hour? Millions are spent on stupid studies evaluating the employment impact of more modest increases in minimum wage. The problem with all such studies is they fail the ceteris paribus test, leading to nothing more than a tower of economic babel in which each side cites only the studies that happen to confirm an economic whore’s biases.

          • Eric Jones

            So let me get this straight you want to let a capitillist whose ONLY goal is to MAXIMIZE profits for HIS/HERSELF decide what to pay you…BRILLIANT(rolling eyes)

      • DaveH

        Do you know what this is, richard brooks? It’s a book, and you should read it:
        http://mises.org/books/capitalism_kelly.pdf

    • Liberty Lover

      Excellent comment, Rick. What you left out is the fact that the elected “managers” of the taxpayer dollars have little incentive to be tough negotiators (and thereby risk the ire of union workers) because the adverse consequences of their imprudence can almost always be pushed down the road to a time when they are no longer in office.

      • Rick Caston

        You are right about that. Unlike private sector management teams which are accountable to it’s owners who are called shareholders, mangers with the government are not really accountable to anybody. (Seen the stories about the extravagant spending for meetings?) Certainly it is not the owners of the government (We The People)! Only in government can the owners be fleeced with absolutely no say in the matter. And spare the “but we have people elected to congress represent We The People” nonsense because that is exactly what it is….nonsense! Most if not all of those folks supposedly representing us are not the least bit concerned with our puny little daily lives and they are not concerned at all with where the money will come from to pay public union’s pay raise demands. After all, in a massive 4 TRILLION dollar budget who up on the Hill gives a damned about pay rates, or pension and health insurance contributions of govco workers. Trust me, they don’t. We The People need to rise up and take responsibility for what the people we elect do once they get to Washington. We need to exercise our authority over those “representatives” sent on our behalf and run them out of office if this nonsense doesn’t stop. None of them should be immune. But my representative is different! NO, he/she isn’t. Our window of opportunity to save this country is closing. We are on the cusp of a financial Armageddon from which will not be able to recover. All on our watch folks. How does it make you feel to be part of a generation that killed America? Ponder that.

    • brett

      so i’ve heard this argument before about wages being low because of global competition, but i have yet to find any one to explain why upper management pay not only has maintained its’ rate but greatly increased? the fact is average income has been stagnate for well over a decade now, forcing people to borrow more. remember the scene from nat. lampoon’ christmas vacation where clark threw a fit because his long expected bonus didn’t happen? that should be us. the american worker. we worked hard for it, but instead of sharing in the profit of our labor, the laws allow profits to stay at the top in the hopes that they may trickle down to us. what ever happened to a fair wage for a fair job?

      • Liberty Lover

        The simple answer to your question, Brett, is that top executives of American corporations do, by and large, have the skills and insight to remain competitive in a global economy. The CEO who dramatically improves his company’s bottom line by transferrring jobs to a country capable of producing goods of comparable quality at significanly less cost, will be rewarded handsomely. So will those who are shareholders in his company. If you lived in a country like Chile, where you could invest YOUR personally owned retirement benefits along with the titans of business (instead of settling for the meager returns available through a fraudulent US social security system), you’d likely worry much less about the compensation of top executives.

        Incidentally, I’ll bet most of you “equal pay for equal work” guys have a lot of trouble with the biblical parable of the vineyard workers. I did also when I was a child.

      • brett

        i’m sorry lib lov, but did you miss how often golden parachutes when to ceo’s for co’s with modest performance or even poor performance? i apologize for not being able to give an example, but it is something i do remember reading often in the financial news. and if you want a great example of cronyism. it’s no surprise that most have the same alma mater. your response read just like the teleprompter on fox thank you very not.

        • Liberty Lover

          It might shock you, Brett, but I’m going to confess to being embarrassed by the way that capitalism is working today. I agree with you that too many executives promoted beyond their sphere of competence are rewarded handsomely for failure. I wish that institutional investors who would be in a position to interfere with such “good-old-boy” cronyism would get the backbone to do so. If anyone can steer me to a well-reasoned solution to this problem, I’d love to hear it.

          P.S. Better to be compared to a teleprompter at Fox than at CNN or MSNBC, but I have huge problems with Fox and many of its leading commentators.

      • brett

        oh and let us not forget how many bankers ( many of whom should be fired much less charged for violating sec regulations for tanking the economy ) gave themselves those cushy bonuses with taxpayer bailout money from that blank check old w gave them. ha, an other alumnus. as for ss, no i’m not impressed, but since pensions are either gutted by businesses like bain capital or taken away or reduced by gop anti unionism, and 401ks are playing roulette when i don’t even get to place my bet what would you suggest?

      • brett

        you know liblov, the whole reason i mess around pontificating here, is that i’m trying to show that there is more that we have much in common to work with than fight over petty distraction such as this, shame we don’t share the same perspectives even though we see and speak the same. granted i’m not expecting much head way. those on the far left aren’t all that reasonable as well. i will have to look for that passage about the vineyard, always looking to learn something new or a view of a different perspective, thanks most sincere this time. oh, and as far as the boob tube, entertainment value only. i prefer to read. fox is the most entertaining though, true spin doctors, cnn and msnbc boring and not as good with the spin. you like kansas? and if i claim to be a wise man, it surely means that i do not know. peace be with you and god speed!

      • brett

        some people say man is made out of mud
        a poor man’s made out of muscle and blood
        muscle and blood and skin and bone
        a mind that’s a-weak and a back that’s strong

        you load sixteen tons and what do you get
        another day older and deeper in debt
        saint peter don’t you call me ’cause i can’t go
        i owe my soul to the company store
        1940′s merle travis everybody!

        • Liberty Lover

          Can we have some songs from Oliver now, Brett?

  • Palin16

    “We got a schellacking!”…..Barack Obama.

  • richard brooks

    i doubt anyone was stunned. i would think the republicans were a bit surprised by the number of ignorant followers they have. if lower wages are the real answer to the economic problem, why aren’t we starting at the top and including everyone. walker left out the cops & firemen (both are public unions), elected and appointed officials, and him self.

    right to work has long been referred to as the right to work for nothing. seems most of the republican supporters are complaining about their own low wages and are simply jealous. instead of working to increase their wages and their standard of living, they want to drag others down to their level.

    if minimum wage had kept pace with cola it would be more than $15/ hour. if it had keep pace with the increase of compensation for ceo’s, elected officials, etc, it would be almost $25/ hour.

    there is a lot of discussion over increasing the production of labor but none over how little the upper management actually produces. yet the majority of the created wealth never flows down to the labor that produces it.

    minimum wage wisconsin will soon be joining the ranks of the poorest states in the union. all the hours you can be forced to work for $5 a day.

    it will be fun watching the walker supporters learn the truth about their new hero.

  • Robert Rashbrooke

    I am Resident Alien Brit who has lived here for 16 years now. I am 71, own my own house, work full time (in a small one man owned electronics jobbing company which mostly does internally consumed products for all sorts of latge businesses but occasionally also exports its products), pay property and Federal taxes, and earn less that 25 grand a year. I have lived for years at a time in 8 different countries, none of which had only private health care systems.

    When I first came here my stepdaughter gave me a copy of Howard Zinn’s “People’s History of America” to read and it has profoundly affected my thinking. I spent 14 years in the RAF then worked for BA (on overseas contracts for 25 years) and finally for this company for the last 16 years.

    I have modified my views many times during my life, based on my experiences, and feel that the only way we can succeed is by being tolerant of other people and respect their right to hold contrary opinions. I am appalled at the constant flow of invective and nastiness that pervades these columns.

    Personally, having been raised in a socialist country, I see nothing wrong with the concept of assisting those in our society who, possibly due to no fault of their own, cannot cope with the complexities of modern living. I do NOT believe in allowing lazy individuals to scam the system to their own advantage – that is NOT why the system exists.

    I truly believe that the US political system is TOTALLY corrupt and is the reason why this country is in the apalling state it is currently in. Over the last 40 years some 5000 individual politicians have quietly but definitely led this country to ruin for their own personal gain. The two party adversarial political system is the next worst one to a one party system.

    There is SO MUCH wrong with us and no politician is talking about it. There is no way we can repay our National Debt, water scarcity is rampant, environmental pullution is everywhere, we are subject to a financial system rigged by crony capitalists entirely for their own benefit, but our political leaders are talking about gay marriage, DOMA and abortion rights.

    The Supreme Court, the final arbiter of justice for the people, is blatantly biassed in favor of big business to the detriment of the common people. Trickle down economics has been spectacularly unsuccessful in creating jobs over the last 15 years, because we should be concentrating on demand side economics, NOT supply side economics, and if Romney is elected thats all we will get for the next 4 years, more of what got us into this mess in the first place.

    Professor Richard Wollf explained it all in his lectures, how we arrived here today, starting with changes in society in the ’70s and why it will continue unless we change the way that capitalism is directed and managed.

    Its time we started concentrating on the things we NEED to do to make this country great again!!

    • Judy

      Yes, and the only way we can do this is to keep voting out the scum. If the new guy does the same vote him out. To many people go to vote and have no idea who or what they are voting for. They just mark the name they recognize. So, let’s just keep voting for the new guy no matter who he is until we the people get the message across, “either you do what you say your going to do, or we vote you out”. Eventually we might finally get someone who does what he says he’ll do. That is the only leverage the voting public has.

      • DaveH

        Better yet — Vote Libertarian. For Individual Liberty, Personal Responsibility, Small Government, Free Markets, and the Peace that naturally results from those:
        http://libertarianparty.org/

    • brett

      one of the few breaths of fresh air. sound reasoning based on real knowledge and objective world view. i can tell you how many americans, even the younger gen. have never been out of their state much less this country.

  • Eric Jones

    Compaired to other colums yours does not infuriate me so thank you for that but you seem to not understand what a union actually is. The unions exest soley to ensure that hard workers like you im sure have the ability to stand to anyone be they goverment or corprete who try to take away ther basic human rights and deny them the money they deserve as the ones producing everything. If you read union litriture you might change your tune.

    • Rick Caston

      Eric, I have no problem with unions in the private sector since the relationship is based on the very survival of the corporation. Everyone knows that. A point I failed to mention is I am in a union. I am an airline pilot. I have seen up close what happens when unions push to far and something unexpected happens. It’s called bankruptcy. In bankruptcy the playing field is once again leveled by the process of going the the bankruptcy. If the corporation survives, and many do not, the employees will have given back much of their gains. Otherwise the Golden Goose gets cooked. The point here is that any overreach by public (government) unions simply results in the raising of taxes on the public to cover it. Therefore government unions have been very successful in raising the pay, benefits, and work rules of government workers, all on the backs of middle class taxpayers who are trying desperately to make ends meet themselves. Now think of the folks on a fixed income. Every year, thanks to lavish (lavish meaning they are far more lucrative than those found in the private sector) government worker wages, pensions, and work rules, government takes more from those that can least afford it. Again, I firmly believe that government worker unions should be outlawed.

      • Eric Jones

        Thank you for not only responding to my comment but for doing so in a civilised manner unlike many others would all thatbeibg said i must resectfully disagree all workers shoud have the right to union no matter which secter they are in because a threat to one of us is a threat to all of us.

    • DaveH

      Eric says — “The unions exest soley to ensure that hard workers like you im sure have the ability to stand to anyone be they goverment or corprete who try to take away ther basic human rights and deny them the money they deserve as the ones producing everything”.

      No, the Unions exist to pad the wallets of Union Leaders, extort money from the company owners, and gain jobs for the privileged at the expense of the other workers.
      What about the human rights of the company owners, Eric? What about their Property Rights? What about their rights to run the company they invested their life and savings into? What about the rights of other hungry job-seekers who would gladly work for what you spurn?
      Without the capital machinery, plants, and other capital goods that the owners have invested in, those Unionists would be lucky to produce at subsistence level like so many 3rd world countries do. If you don’t think you’re paid enough, Eric, find another job or start your own company and show us how it’s done. Don’t extort money from the owners of the company which makes you no better than a common thief.

      • Liberty Lover

        I remember the fury of Ayn Rand when she discovered that elevator operators (implausible as it might seem to some of you, we used to have them even after technological advances made them completely unnecessary) went on strike. As I recall, she suggested plunking them down in the middle of a jungle and letting them find out how well they could survive by extending their index finger and poking the air at regular intervals.

      • Eric Jones

        I am unemployed because of the 2008 market crash caused by greedy capitillists so parden me if i dont shed a tear for some fat-cat when it is THEY who mistreat ther workers (without whom they would have nothing) to the point where the workers have to endanger ther jobs to keep the rights theyve won.

        • Kevin Beck

          Apparently, you don’t recognize the difference between statist banksters and business-owning capitalists.

          The recession that started in 2007 was entirely the result of the actions of the banksters, led by the Federal Reserve Board and the imbeciles creating loan programs at Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac. NONE of the people in this group could qualify as capitalists.

          For capitalism to exist, there must be the possibility of loss from business failure. How many of the banksters and their proxies at FNMA and FHLMC went out of business due to market failure? Answer: None; they were all bailed out by the government. This is the furthest thing from capitalism. Capitalism doesn’t allow for bailouts by the omniscient government.

          • Eric Jones

            pehaps not in PRINCIBLE but in PRACTICE politicions in capitillists countrys become so greedy that they will do ANYTHING to protect ther cashflow that greed is built in to the system. huh sounds good in princible but not in practice kinda like proibition eh?

        • Liberty Lover

          I don’t know you, Eric, but I’m sure that if you have valuable, marketable skills, there is a “greedy capitalist” out there who is as interested in serving his own self interests as you are in serving yours, and who would be happy to “exploit” you by offering you a job. Do you believe that capitalism owes you a “decent” standard of living?

          • Eric Jones

            I belive that goverments exist SOLEY to give ther the best life possible with the resorces it has but in capitillism the welthy can buy politicions which by-the-way would NEVER happen under TRUE SOCIALISM.

          • Liberty Lover

            Are you aware that the only resources a government has are those confiscated from the productive sectors of society? Do you really believe your neighbors are obligated to give you the standard of living to which you would like to become accustomed? Are you really such an entitlement brat? When you assert that government has an obligation to give you “the best possible” standard of living, will you be wanting two or three lamborghinis to park in the driveway of your 12,000 square-foot home? Most leftists are “dispositionally uneducable”, Eric. I hope you don’t end up in that category.

          • Eric Jones

            Let me break this down for you when i say the best i mean affordible housing free education and free healthcare not they that they should give me all the money i want cause i dont even need that much. ps call me a brat again you will be collecting you teeth from the floor.

          • Liberty Lover

            :-) If the shoe fits……

          • Eric Jones

            tf the shoe fits …wow,,, must have been the brainstorm of a lifetime i bow to your intellect.

          • Liberty Lover

            Delighted that you dropped your pugilistic threats in favor of some good old-fashioned sarcasm, Eric, before I used you as another example of how socialism always leads to thugs beating up on innocents.

          • Eric Jones

            First of all congradulations for grasping the sarcasm i was afraid it went over your head second of all im not a thug its just if my mother found i tolerated disrespect shed tan my hide thirdly if you can defend the wage-slavers with a stait face you are NOWERE near innocent and just for the record the men of my family dont threaten we promise.

  • http://gravatar.com/catman11 coalminer

    Richard Brooks,
    Why don’t we eliminate Social Security and old age pensions? If we do.You will see how fast these union busting scabs come unglued.During 60s and 70s we had the highest standard living in the world.We were the envy of every country,now look at us now.A communist is actually out producing us.Lenin was right. He said we would sell them the rope to hang ourselves with.We got Reagan to thank for that bit of stupidity.

    • richard brooks

      our current economic woes are a result of reagans neo socialist ideals. in the 60′s we had a labor shortage. that shortage drove wages up. which meant more disposable income. that provided the means to drive the economy.

      reagan required that those who made the least give up some of what they made so those who make the most could have more. this was supposed to result in more jobs that would pay more.

      walker has done the same. he has convinced far too many that low wages will result in more disposable income which will drive the economy.

      if this economic program really worked, the bush tax cuts, stimulus to the wealthy, subsidies for the large corporations, and decreasing wages for labor would have produced a vibrant thriving economy. instead we have seen fewer jobs which pay less with fewer benefits. leaving us with an increasing debt and a failing economy.

      the republicans are trying to steal my (our) social security funds and pension. if it is left up to them they will be no social security, pensions or health care.

      their supporters are voting themselves right back into peonage. and are too ignorant to understand.

    • DaveH

      Before the Progressives came along, with their Big Government Interventionism, we had the highest real wage growth in our country’s history. But those conditions didn’t allow the Politically Connected to benefit at the rest of our expense. Free Markets allow people to become the best they can be without the Interventionism of Big Government throwing hoops and other obstacles in their way. With Free Markets, our society would not only be morally consistent, but the people would be the most productive they could be, and the result would be much more dynamic economies than we have now.
      And Unions, through their coercion and other means of Force, benefit at the expense of their potential replacement workers, their company’s consumers, and the taxpayers who must foot the bill for the Immoral assistance of Big Government busybodies.

  • Working Man

    We shall see Chippy old boy!!! And Chip Wood, being a columnist on this sight, do you belong to a union?

  • Marti

    I could care less about Romney’s money, I don’t hate or envy the rich.
    It’s their money and I’ve never been hired by a poor man.
    In my life I’ve been free to make as much or as little as I want, it depended how hard I worked. If I chose to work 18 hours a day no one is entitled to my hard earned spoils but me.
    Like I said, I don’t hate the rich and I don’t pity the poor.
    Unions need to go the way of the buggy whip.

    • Paul Wells

      Well said, Marti. That is a wise ideology, and puts personal accountability and responsibility solely where it lies. Instead of all the namby pamby crybabying about it’s everyone else’s fault, you made choices, and you lived by them. That’s how it should be, and I long for the day (if ever) that we can get back to that.

    • richard brooks

      you have never been free to make more than your employer was willing, or forced, to pay you. without the labor laws you would be free to work, for free.

      walker is going to show you how to do that.

      • DaveH

        It’s time for some economic glasses to correct for that near-sightedness, richard.
        Unionists only benefit at the expense of everybody else. Very few company owners are going to invest their money in a company without the expectation of getting a decent return on their money. So, due to market forces, when Unionists extort higher salaries, they must lay off other workers or reduce their pay, or raise their product prices (if they can), or lose money until they figure out that it isn’t worth it and move to another country or just go out of business. So the results are that other people suffer a loss, either from paying more for their goods and services or losing their jobs.
        If every employee joined a Union, then there would be nobody to make up for their unnaturally high wages and the prices of our goods and services would just go up to compensate. There is NO Free Lunch. On top of that, Unionists, being protected from firing, typically produce less than non-Unionists. So the loss of productivity would result in even higher prices than we paid before. Higher wages but much higher prices resulting in a net loss of purchasing power.

    • Eric Jones

      The only one talking about hate and envy is you the unions are talking about workers solidarity.

  • s c

    Comeuppance is beautiful! Finally, the voters of Wisconsin GET IT! Next stop, ELECTION!

  • richard brooks

    i am curious. if chip, walker and their buddies really believe lower wages will eliminate the economic problems, why aren’t they willing to work for less. lead by example. work for minimum wage. pay for your own benefits.

    all these guys are doing is requiring you to accept less so they can have more.

    why should you and your family accept a lower standard of living so chip and his family can live a more luxurious life style.

    walker/reagan supporters are slaves demanding the right to go back to work on the plantation. which is fine. but why are you demanding that the rest of us join you.

    • DaveH

      Free Markets would solve our problems, Richard. That may result in lower wages, but the increased productivity would also result in much lower prices, thus our goods and services would be more affordable even though the wages were down. After all, buying power is what it’s really all about. Imagine for instance if we put those people, who are sucking off the 40% of our economy that Big Government spends, back to doing productive work? More goods and services (more politely also) would benefit all but the Politicians, Bureaucrats, and Crony Capitalists who would lose a lot of their Power and Perks. The vast majority of the citizens would benefit. And I’m not even counting the tremendous loss to the economy that results from the anti-productive regulations that Big Government throws in the way of businesses:
      http://www.scribd.com/doc/53100815/Wayne-Crews-10-000-Commandments-2011

      • Eric Jones

        Hate to break it to you but the “free market” does not exist the the bigger corperations will ALWAYS push the little guys out of exestence.

      • richard brooks

        well, dave. are you including all of the subsidies and tax breaks we give farmers, corporations, banks, foreign entities, etc?

        i am still waiting for any of the reagan/walker supporters to tell me how cheap they will work.

        or explain how lowering the wages will stimulate the economy.

        the claim that higher production drives down prices is false. cheap labor immigrants have not kept prices down. those low wages have increased the wealth of a few.

        low wages result in less disposable income. which means fewer customers.

  • MSGT JOHN CORREA

    Unionism in government should never be allowed. Can you imagine the consequences as to what would happen if military personnel were forced to join unions? Government employees should receive wages for work performed, and when a pay raise is due, it should funnel down when Congress gives themselves a hefty pay raise without any involvement from dictatorial unions. However, government and civilian employees should receive decent wages for the type of work performed so that they can provide for their own benefits, and not at the expense of the taxpayers or the business proprietors.

    If an individual hires a person to do a specific job, he or she is only obligated to pay for worked performed; employers are not obligated to provide for sick days, healthcare, vacations, etc. If they do; it is only because they want to keep you in their services. Lke many of you I’ve always been an employee, never an employer. I rendered my opinion soley upon fairness. No one is entitled to entitlements; you must earn it the old fashion way… you must work and pay for it.

    MSGT JOHN CORREA
    USAF (RET)

    • richard brooks

      congress votes their pay raise. why can’t employees vote for their pay raise. employees should be paid for work performed. why are we paying elected officials? why are ceo’s paid? why pay chip so much to write this stories?

      i am still waiting for any of you low wage supporters to explain why one group should have higher wages and benefits that are paid by a group that is denied both.

      • Eric Jones

        The employes can vote for and ask for a pay raise THROUGH THE UNION.

      • richard brooks

        well, erik, that is not quite the same is it. and if there is no union, then who is voting for the raise? right. what raise. we will put you on salary and increase your required hours and production.

    • brett

      funny, when i served, it felt like union work to me.

    • Robert Rashbrooke

      In reply to John Correa, you do in fact have a de facto union, made up of Department of Defense personnel, looking after your welfare, setting your wages and working conditions, all undetected by the serving people. This is how you benefit occasionally from pay raises and new equipment. People working in the private sector do not have this luxury unless theyare unionised. Normal working conditions, apart from wages, are mandated by laws and directives from operations like OSHA, etc. There are no mandatory controls on what management provide for themselves and after the 70′s they took extreme advantage of this fact.

    • Thinking About

      Are you receiving a pension since you retired? Are you receiving health care? Are you afforded commissary privileges? And since you have retired what function are your receiving these benefits, whether your benefits was negotiated through unions you are receiving benefits also. These benefits are the same negotiated for union members and in many cases those who do not belong to unions receives the same benefits. Should you be receiving benefits, you bet, but you should never speak badly of union members receiving benefits since you are also.

  • ONTIME

    Guv. Walker has fulfilled the ideals of a Reagan conservative, stick to your principals, govern from the right and make your words/actions ring of the truth. Walker is a member of the Heritage Foundation a truly conservative institute and he has held true in a time of foment and strife to let his actions speak for themslves and show why a conservative is a better candidate than a entrenched entitlement candidate.

    The defeat of the let, the unions and the communist has left them in disarray, they are wounded to the quik and reeling because all they sought was unraveled and destroyed by the voters and taxpayers in a momentous display and show of voter/taxpayer enthusiasm to defeat the entilement left and bring government bilking and growth to a halt…Americans are self reliant, independent conservatives and will fight in the trenches to keep their sacred freedoms.

    • richard brooks

      satire

  • Palin16

    “Obama’s goose is cooked”…..Sarah Palin
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OF9IyIFZr0E

    • jopa

      Would that be the same Sara Palin that had her goose cooked a few years ago?LOL.

      • jopa

        Oh no it was her moose that was cooked.

      • Palin16

        Haha! I can see the white house from Wisconsin!

  • Dave

    Collective bargaining is a constitutional right collective extortion is not. Just ask Magna in Syracuse NY. My friend worked there and got yelled at by his boss because he was to productive and then was explained to how to extort more money from the company via overtime daily and working Sat,Sun, and holidays. One fork lift operator was extorting not earning over $200,000.00 a year and people then wonder why a company wants to move their production overseas.

    • Liberty Lover

      Generally good comment, Dave, but if your version of the US Constitution says collective bargaining is a right, it’s different than my version of that Constitution. It would become a bit repetitive to hear it, but the appropriate quote for virtually every issue raised herein belongs to Lord Acton: “power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely.”

  • Robert Rashbrooke

    OK, can someone show me an example of ANY job that deserves to be paid at the rate of $5,000 per hour, since that is what $10 million per year works out to on a 40 hour week, 50 weeks per year basis. One of the reasons our health care costs so much is that that figure is the norm for CEOs of HMOs, and why we are not so competitive globally on our manufacturing industries. We may have been the best in the world at some time in the past, but due to the way in which business is directed by absentee boards of directors, we no longer are. The inequalities in business MUST be corrected if we are to shine once again.

    • Liberty Lover

      I’m not willing to give up enough of my Saturday to provide a full answer to the issues raised by your post, Robert, but I’ll make this deal with you. If you can find for me a CEO that gets paid $10 million a year for working 40-hour weeks, I’ll provide a fuller answer to your questions. Can you spell “naivete”?

      • http://twitter.com/ericbischoff Eric Bischoff (@ericbischoff)

        You are right. How could one ever compare a 40 hour work week to the time put in by CEOs. Playing golf, attending well paid board meetings, having paid for lunch, dinners, entertainment, travel, vacations, fund raisers. It’s all work, it’s all paid for, it’s all a tax write off. How dare one compare it to a 40 hour work week.

  • Robert Rashbrooke

    One of the failings of our education system seems to be that fundamental thinking is no longer taught, the current approach being to concentrate on the here and now.

    This is woefully apparent when one reads the arguments put forth in these blogs, whereby the writer does not stop to consider the ramifications of his/her current argument, but concentrates soley in the future application of that argument (argument meaning viewpoint and NOT disagreement). If one reduces governmental involvement in everyday life then EVERYONE’S personal situation is affected, not just the person setting forth the argument, and not everyones situation is the same. Other people may be much more affected than you. Politicians SAY that they introduce laws with the view of providing the greater good for the majority. so not everyone actually needs them or wamts them, but someone does. We definitely need to examine the ramifications of everything we say and do, to avoid the law of inadvertent consequences.

    • Liberty Lover

      Robert, the road to economic hell is paved with the good intentions of those who have not the slightest understanding of unintended consequences. The black community has been absolutely savaged over the years by liberal/progressives who either inadvertently or maliciously deprive blacks of the tough-love needed to survive in this world. What would Dems do if blacks as a group ceased to be poor and dependent? Where would the votes me if blacks were to succeed economically? Is there a single social-service worker who would be happy to be unemployed as a consequence of black success?

      • brett

        libluv, i apologize, you say you’re o.k. with one man exploiting the labor of an other’s because the other man could leave if he felt exploited. i throw out merle travis, and you ask for oliver? ? i have to say i’m disappointed.

  • Palin16

    “One of the things that’s a huge advantage to America compared to countries like Europe…”….Barack Obama April 2010.

  • http://gravatar.com/bychoosing Jay

    To fully understand the progressive movement and their current rush to grab one-sixth of the US economy via unconstitutional federal health care mandates, one must follow the trail that leads from the Maoist Movement of the 60s that started in Berkley California, and the Marxist Movement that has culminated in the joint venture between the Communist Party USA and Socialist Party USA, today’s Democratic Socialists of America.

    Today’s US Congress is controlled by two Democratic Socialists of America (DSAUSA) organizations, the Congressional Black Caucus and the Congressional Progressive Caucus.

    The DSAUSA explains it very clearly in their publication, What is Democratic Socialism—

    “We are not a separate party. Like our friends and allies in the feminist, labor, civil rights, religious, and community organizing movements, many of us have been active in the Democratic Party. We work with those movements to strengthen the party’s left wing, represented by the Congressional Progressive Caucus.”

    They explain their primary methods as well—in the spirit of Joseph Stalin—“Education is a weapon whose effects depend on who holds it in his hands and at whom it is aimed.”

    “Since the Civil Rights movement of the 1950s, young people have played a critical role in American politics. They have been a tremendous force for both political and cultural change in this country: in limiting the US’s options in the war in Vietnam, in forcing corporations to divest from the racist South African regime, in reforming universities, and in bringing issues of sexual orientation and gender discrimination to public attention. Though none of these struggles were fought by young people alone, they all featured youth as leaders in multi-generational progressive coalitions. Young people are needed in today’s struggles as well: for universal health care and stronger unions, against welfare cuts and predatory multinational corporations.”

    Vladimir Lenin explained why the political left always targets young minds in the pursuit of the leftist agenda, – “Give me four years to teach the children and the seed I have sown will never be uprooted.”

    And so it is in America today. What our children understand to be “progressive,” the older generations know to be socialism, communism, Marxism and most accurately, totalitarianism.

    Young people have been taught to call it “social justice,” the central governments power to control individual outcomes regardless of individual productivity, or as Karl Marx put it, – “to take from each according to his abilities, and give to each according to his needs.” This is the fundamental basis of Marxism, “social justice” and today’s progressive ideal.

    The ongoing capitalist crisis generated high hopes that the parties and social movements of the Left, both in the U.S. and elsewhere in the world, would be re-energized. So far this has not happened. The Left remains fractured and confused, drifting away from its labor base, while the Right seems to have emerged as the stronger or at least the more strident force.”

    The leftist Obama Administration is under heavy fire from those who put him in power, the international left.

    Constitutional conservatives opposed Obammunism in 2008 are even more opposed in 2010. Moderates who fell for Obama’s centrist sounding campaign have since awakened, and turned against him. But his record low approval rating and that of the DSAUSA led congress, dips well below the mark of the constitutional American majority.

    Their low approval ratings include increasing anger from hardcore leftists who expected Obama to ram through their agenda by any means necessary, even if 95% of Americans stood opposed.

    Today’s Democrat Party is NOT run by Democrats, or even Liberals. It is run by Democratic Socialists, aka progressives.

    Following the advice of Karl Marx who said, “Democracy is the road to socialism.”—Progressives tricked Americans into voting socialists into power, and every time someone challenges their socialist agenda, they proclaim, “the election is over, we won!”

    In other words, the 2008 election gives them the right to run roughshod over the vast majority of Americans, because they won the election fair and square, and as Democrats, they believe in the very ideology that Thomas Jefferson warned against—“A democracy is nothing more than mob rule, where fifty-one percent of the people may take away the rights of the other forty-nine.”

    On this basis, progressives (aka Marxists) believe that they were elected to power for the purpose of ushering in global socialism and they couldn’t care less how many Americans stand opposed. They won the election and that’s that!

    As long as Americans think they are debating with Democrats or liberals, they are no match for the international socialist juggernaut they are up against.

    Is the Constitution a Partisan Document?

    There are many republicans, democrats and independents that love and revere the US Constitution, our Bill of Rights and the Declaration of Independence. But today, these ideas are under attack from within the halls of our own government and that’s what the anger at town hall meetings is all about. That’s what the 912 and Tea Party movements are about…

    And, the fight for the future of freedom rests in the vote over nationalized health care about to be rammed down every American throat this week.

    The Health Care debate is NOT over health care, it’s all about FREEDOM versus unbridled federal power.

    Every sane American knows that there are things that can and should be done to improve health care in America. But we also know that handing health care over to the very people who have bankrupted every federal program under the sun is beyond insane.

    The debate isn’t over health care. It’s over the federal government’s need to confiscate one-sixth of the US economy and gain control over life and death in one fast sweep.

    If the American people fail to stand together and defeat this one government grab, they will have doomed themselves to a life of servitude for generations to come.

    These are NOT your grandparents’ Democrats. Know thy enemy, or suffer defeat… Stand now or be forever silent!

    http://www.canadafreepress.com/index.php/article/21056

    • richard brooks

      you do realise that it was republicans that ended the republic. the republicans that created the federal govt. tho it took a war to that.

      tis obvious that you are unaware that we have always been a socialist country. we would not be able to continue with out socialism.

      • http://gravatar.com/bychoosing Jay

        You, are completely mad, and your madness eats away at you like a cancer!

      • richard brooks

        lol. i am curious. will you work for minimum wage? are you willing to work for even less?

        will you still be a consumer?

      • Palin16

        Richard Brooks,
        Do you know how many people attended Karl Marx’s funeral? 9
        I wonder if the officiant said “he will be sorely missed”.

    • brett

      for as much of what you say is true here, doesn’t change how disinformed your conclusions may be.

  • http://twitter.com/ericbischoff Eric Bischoff (@ericbischoff)

    Now I understand who you are DaveH. You, and many others here, are a classic example of the Obama Hate Machine. Bill Press has done extensive research and written a book about you guys.

    Most of your reading material and beliefs come from sources extremely well funded by the Koch brothers, Charles and David who are the #3 & 4 richest coal, oil and gas Billionaires behind 1 & 2 Gates & Buffet.

    Not since Adams & Jefferson or Lincoln have we seen such vicious, ugly personal attacks. We did have something similar when the Dupont brothers went after FDR.

    Public figures have openly called Obama a racist, marxist, fascist, dictator, muslim, nazi, foreigner, Jackass, liar, socialist, Un-American.

    This ugliness is driven by the funding of by oil barrons Koch brothers and a complicit main stream media lead by Fox.

    The Kock-topus machine without whom there would be no Tea Party is also the funding for The Heritage Foundation, Cato (now suing to get it back), American Enterprise Institute, Freedom works, John Kasich OH, Scott Walker WI, CA Prop 23 repealing car standards, WVA overturning mining safety rules and 53 organizations and college research centers to refute global warming. Their bi-yearly meetings and fund raisers are attended by (treasonous) Republican governors and Supreme court justices.

    So you guys are either being manipulated or eagerly following a couple of mean and greedy coal, oil and gas barrons who are manipulating our laws and our government, why? so they can make more money. That’s treasonous.

    Meanwhile you are blaming all of the problems on a government (remember our founding fathers great experiment the US govt) that would love to be able to fix things but let’s face it, we can’t really compete when there is so much dirty money.

    We don’t really stand a chance unless we take this dirty money out of politics. (Campaign finance reform)

    So please DaveH tell us tell us, which is it? Have they manipulated you? Or do you agree with them? Or do you work for them?

  • richard brooks

    i have yet to find even one walker/reagan supporter who is willing to accept a low wage position. all of them, like old chip, want others to accept less so they can have more.

    if this lower wage plan is such a great idea, why aren’t the supporters of this plan first in line for less compensation.

    • Thinking About

      No wonder some on this site so easily follow the wrong path, you must not get out very often. Keep trying, you might be able to understand one of these days.

  • Palin16

    Biggest raise I ever got as a union member in a closed shop….+$1.00/hour
    Biggest raise I ever got in a nonunion Right-to-Work shop……..+$3.50/hour
    Same type of job.

    • http://gravatar.com/bychoosing Jay

      Palin, i’m self-employed, and i, determine my hourly rate. Sweeeet….

      I worked for a unionized company years ago, when i was but a wee little lad; approximately 19. It was the most depressing, non-inspiring, f**k the dog, and the pups place, like you couldn’t imagine. Everyone was looking for ways NOT, to work, and when push came to shove, the employees that were asked to work or get fired, went crying to the shop-steward. After that, i never set foot in a place that was unionized.

      The progressives try to sell the lie that, without unions, everyone who sets up shop would be a greedy, cut-throat-capitalist, without a care for their employees. It is a myth, its scare tactics.

      The same scare-tactics they use to sell the environmental-hoax(the planet is burning), abortion(too many unwanted babies that will put a strain on the tax-payers), same-sex marriage(gays are being denied rights, treated like second-class citizens, and are being butchered by the millions) and the list goes on! These progressives are nothing more then, CONTROL-FREAKS, scared-little-people, who suffer from VERY low, self-esteem!!!

      I just walk right over top of them, and squash them like the cockroaches that they are!!!

      • Palin16

        I hate to pile on the poor little misunderstood liberals while their down from their defeat in Wisconsin, but I understand the Supreme Court may have an announcement tomorrow….

      • richard brooks

        you must have been home schooled? or do you simply deny the working conditions that were prevalent prior to labor laws.

        12 hour days, 6 day weeks, minimal wages, no over time, no retirement plan, no health insurance, all were quite common.

        we have given the corporations lower taxes and billions in stimulus and subsidies. in return they have provided fewer positions that require longer hours and lower compensation.

        with abortion it is estimated that we would have 50 million more added to the current labor pool.

        where are the jobs.

        where is the money to provide the social services.

      • Palin16

        richard brooks,
        No one is denying the unions had their place back in the 1930′s. In fact, when I was forced to attend the union indoctrination meeting prior to switching job locations, they played a video for us in black and white showing seamstresses in the sweat shop with a power-hungry boss standing over them. I almost laughed out loud. I think FDR was the president.
        But now it is 2012 and the unions are not only outdated but corrupt as well. I myself have prospered much better under a Right-to-Work State than in a forced unionism state, and with the money I saved from no union dues I’ve taken wonderful vacations all over the world.

  • Robert Rashbrooke

    Whoever came out with the statement “work is enobling” must never have had to work in a society which is predicated on the idea of a regular income required to purchase the basic necisseities of life just in order to live.

    Back in the Middle Ages, Lords and Barons etc utilised serfdom to enrich their own lives at the expense of the serfs and it took hundreds of years and many generations to get rid of the horrendous practises that were then utilised. This progressive fight for basic human rights continued right up to the present day, well within the lifetime of many of you writing to this column and well documented by our impartial historians.

    For me, I can see no distinction between management trying to obtain the maximum benefits.for itself and the workforce attempting to do the same. Neither faction can operate without the other so neither side has superiority over the other. Each may and should strive for the best that it can get, irrespective of how or who funded the employment facility.

    Since the mid 70s the fight over working conditions has been heavily weighted in favor of management due to an over abundance of labor, and it is NOT co incidental that our world eminence has deteriorated since then, with management’s emphasis on short term profits and personal enhancement,

    Also, what is wrong with our ELECTED government spending the maximum amount OUR taxes on the health and welfare of our population, rather than wasting it on military conquests and establishing (militarised) spheres if influence around the world. If we were NOT interferring in the internal affairs of so many other countries, something we would certainly not allow THEM to do to US, we could probably afford proper healthcare and a functioning public education systerm.

    PS I note that no one has yet provided an example of a job that justifies $10 million a year. And note that I did NOT actually say the HMO CEO actually works 40 hours a week for 50 weeks a year. The example I showed was taken from an NPR program aired sometime early last year and I cannot now remember the HMO nor the name of the female mentioned. Do any of you think that Jamie Dimond really earns his $23 million salary, a CEO who told the Congressional committee that he had no idea his utilising the CDOs and Credit Swap Defaults would have the repercussions that they did, and who again in the last few weeks said he had no idea how the London branch of his outfit managed to lose $2 billion? And who still thnks that people like him will play fair over YOUR wages and terms of employment?

  • Robert Rashbrooke

    In reply to Liberty Lover, whenI worked for BA, part of my job was to educate a local to ultimately take over the job I was doing. This happened to me on both my Zambian contract and my Saudi contract. I was not too upset over these lost jobs because there were other jobs to go to – my permanent employment with BA was not ended because of those lost jobs.

    I would imagine that same would be true of the goverment welfare sevice individuals – there would probably be a fairly constant inflow of clients OR those workers would be re directed to do other types of work, OR they may even be laid off, which should not be impossible to achieve, unions or not. And if they get laid off they should be compensated at the same rate that you and I would both find acceptable.

  • brett

    if you’re bored you should check out the mock-u-mentrary, c.s.a, the confederated states of america ’04. but since it’s a spike lee joint it’s probably on your band/burn list.

  • GG

    When I think of all the money that was taken from my paycheck over a 25 year career as a teacher, I become very regretful: That was MY hard-earned money and the damn teacher’s union took it and squandered it on politicians that I had absolutely no interest in! The people of Wisconsin have spoken for millions of us who wish they had another chance to turn back the clock and KICK THE UNION IN THE A#! Let’s keep the heat on and bring the era of the unions to a close…their days should be shortly numbered!

    • Eric Jones

      Its so sad thata teacher is not smart enough to tell the ones attacking you(politicions) from the ones defending you(your union)

  • Dave67

    The recall in WI was a misuse of the recall… But… The sad part is this:

    Conservatives want to see an end to unions and when that finally happens. Corporations will have a free hand to do what they want and to lobby congress for their interests.

    Corporations have an amazing record of doing right by their employees ya know….

    And as their working conditions deteriorate and they are paid even less… then you will be clamoring for a return of unions.

  • richard brooks

    With 14 million Americans already out of work—these EPA mandates could cause another 250,000 job losses across the country. We can’t afford to lose these well paying middle-class jobs.

    i received this in my email today. asking me to sign a petition to stop the epa. it is interesting that you write a story bashing unions and union pay, then send me an email asking me to support a union and that same high union pay. shouldn’t you be trying to break that union and get those wages lowered. after all. low wages are the answer.

    as many have pointed out, the coal companies were treating their employees much better prior to the evil unions.

    seems to be a bit selective and more than just a bit biased reporting.

  • http://abedon.com Unique Email Prospects

    You really make it appear really easy along with your presentation but I in finding this matter to be really one thing which I feel I might by no means understand. It sort of feels too complicated and extremely huge for me. I am taking a look ahead to your subsequent publish, I’ll attempt to get the hold of it!

  • Strightothepoint 2012

    Good-By1111

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