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Who Gains Most from Bubbles and Bailouts?

January 4, 2010 by  

Who Gains Most from Bubbles and Bailouts?

Well, yes, the money does come out of the taxpayer’s pocket but in a way that most people don’t recognize. Bubbles and bailouts are not paid for with gold and silver. They are paid for with printing press money, which dilutes your savings and retirement funds.

So who are the heroes of bubbles and bailouts? The short answer is, the money creators. They are presiding over and benefiting from the greatest transfer of wealth in history, with the almost certain guarantee that they will never be found out, because they are operating above the threshold of perceived reality.

I am telling you something that is not taught in any school in America.

Of course we should know that every new dollar that the money creators create dilutes every dollar already created. They are using non-substance fiat that cost them nothing and exchanging it for substance in the form of capital assets. This is a transfer of wealth by definition. This depreciating fiat is impoverishing all who hold dollar assets.

We live in a pro-collectivist, pro-government age. The government can get away with virtually anything if allegedly done in the collective interest of the “public,” with scarcely any media or public voice raised in criticism. Yet the same action by an individual or private company is attacked viciously and denounced as immoral and against “public policy.”

Fraud is so big at the highest levels in government and business that the very magnitude of it serves as part of the defrauders’ protection.

All fraud begins and ends with fiat. Fiat is not money. It is a substitute that has been placed in peoples minds and they think of it as money.

The most important thing that people can understand today and should understand before they become completely impoverished is that we have arrived at where we are today, simply because of the inability of people to differentiate between money and money substitutes which allows them to be continually swindled. This seems to be something that the money creators behind government have done over and over to swindle the population and the citizens never catch on.

We are about to enter a period of serious inflation. And it may even be hyperinflation.

There is absolutely no mystery about this inflation to come, as it will come because of excess printing of paper money.

Inflation is not as most people think, increasing prices. Inflation is depreciation of paper money. And the people who do the creating are the ones who benefit.

Bob Livingston

is an ultra-conservative American and author of The Bob Livingston Letter™, founded in 1969. Bob has devoted much of his life to research and the quest for truth on a variety of subjects. Bob specializes in health issues such as nutritional supplements and alternatives to drugs, as well as issues of privacy (both personal and financial), asset protection and the preservation of freedom.

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  • Freeme

    I see more Americans waking up and work toward this goal myself in providing sources for research and encourage my contacts to EDUCATE THEMSELVES on a daily basis. While this is working quite well, it is still not reaching those with simply REFUSE to OBSERVE, SEE and HEAR truth in REALITY, for they have chosen to keep their head buried in the sand and drink kool-aid. This is very sad, for the writing on the wall is very clear indeed, but HOW DO WE GET THEM TO HEAR AND SEE?
    Persistence pays off in most endeavors, but I must admit I get very disgruntled and discouraged by IGNORANCE of those who will not even ‘consider’ what is happening to ALL OF US!

    • DaveH

      Worst of all are the ignorant ones who fervently promote the myth of Big Government compassion.

      • http://donthaveone Beberoni

        And I myself, just cannot help but wonder, what has reduced these peoples strive for life, that they actually want the government to take care of them, and are content to lay around riding on the shoulders of those who work for a living. I dont see how people can sleep at night knowing they arent even making an attempt to carry their own weight, and are being a burden to society on purpose when they could prevent it. Also, I dont think they know, or care, that its a dangerous situation in wanting the government to expand and keep taking over running things. Its not good.

  • Aaron

    One way we can get the attention of those on the “Hill” is to make signs and protest in front of their HOMES! Not in DC nor their district offices but where they LIVE! Let them know that we know where and how they live and we will remove the source of their wealth in the MARCH primaries and/or NOVEMBER elections! DO NOT resort to any violence, but let them know we will not be denied!

  • http://victorbarney@embarqmail.com Victor L Barney

    Who Gains Most from Bubbles and Bailouts? How about the White House? If they can “cause” a major “world crisis,” it will be rather easy to grab more power! CIA? what gain would they have? They are presiding over and benefiting from the greatest transfer of wealth in history? Holding worthless currency? After learning that FDR died of Brain Cancer and seeing first hand what it was like to see my grandfather die of brain cancer, it must have been a “miracle” that we won WW II! Not to mention, we “knew” exactly everything both Germany and Japan were going to do before they did it, even letting Pearl Harbor people die, and the like occur for the good of the world! What, Terrorism? Please!

  • Michael Hendry

    The bailouts is to save the ponzi schemes of big banks. If no new money comes in the ponzi scheme goes broke. our government is a ponzi scheme also If no new money from china and higher taxes, Health care reform, printing more money that has no backing. the government goes broke.

    • James

      Michael H., Printing more money that has no backing, and has not yet been earned, makes the people go broke not the government. It dilutes the money in circulation and decreases the value of all dollars.

      • George

        Maybe I need an education on this point, but isn’t our currency backed up by the strength of the US economy and the ability of our government to tax the economy, since gold is no longer the standard?

        • Woody

          What “economy” George? We are no longer a “producing” Nation, but a “consumer” Nation. All our production capability has been outsourced to (mainly) China. The government is taxing the very fiat with which it is paying the American Citizen for his labor. Oops…just got myself confused in my own fuzzy logic.

          • George

            Woody,

            I understand that a large percentage of our manufacturing has been outsourced to other countries. However, we still create wealth in this country in a variety of ways, and that is measured by the GDP, I think. Isn’t that correct, and isn’t this and our current accounts surplus/deficit the primary bases for the value of the USD? Thanks.

        • DaveH

          No George, that is Government Debt that is backed up by the full faith and credit of the US Government.
          Any excess money that is issued (as earlier stated) dilutes the existing money. So, as an example, if suddenly the Federal Reserve were to increase the outstanding supply of money by 100%, the previously outstanding money would then have only half the purchasing power that it had before the increase (twice as much money chasing the current goods and services). In other words your savings would lose half of their purchasing power.

          • http://donthaveone Beberoni

            Its kind of like when you own stocks, and they get a really high value, then they split them to make the buy in costs lower to attract new buyers, only now you have twice as many. In this comparison though, after they split them, they take the other half from you, so now you have half of what you had before.

          • George

            Dave,

            That makes sense to me. However, I think there still has to be some underlying asset on which to base the value of the USD. I assume the asset is the GDP plus surplus less debt and our net current accounts surplus/deficit. Does that make sense? Thanks.

    • http://donthaveone Beberoni

      Ponzi scheme of the Fed.

  • Robert

    Only politicians and Wall Street Bankers benefit. The rest of us get the royal shaft.

  • wayne

    Ron Paul is correct when he argues that we shoud audit the Fed. As it now exists, there is no meaningful oversight of their actions. The Fed is not even authorized by the Constitution, yet it has more power over our economy than any other entity.

    • http://Don'thaveone Sally

      I hope you all realize that the FED is NOT owned by the US Government but is for lack of any other word is a private corporation owned mostly by foreign banks WHICH IS VERY UNCONSTITUTIONAL!!! Our fore fathers predicted what would happen if this were the case and here we are!!!

      • http://victorbarney@embarqmail.com Victor L Barney

        RIGHT-ON SALLY!!!

      • DaveH

        Sally,
        This article attempts to dispel the foreign ownership theory:
        http://www.usagold.com/federalreserve.html

        At any rate, I do agree with Ron Paul that their books should be open to the public.

        • Loren

          Regardless of who owns the Fed, it wields powers unauthorized by our Constitution. It is a private banking cartel, which does not have auditing oversight by our Congress, who is the only body constitutionally authorized to hold the purse strings. We are being scammed by the Banking elite. and it’s time for it to stop!

          • SiliconDoc

            Well, I don’t exactly agree with that. In any case, the Congress makes lots of laws that assign others to oversee their various duties and responsibilities.
            I believe the Constitution states that the Congress can assign that work to any Officer or Department of the Government.
            So Congress creates all these various departments and agencies, many usurping power, unconstitutionally – but they get away with it – they make the law, and the Courts go along for the most part, or expand the power.
            In the realm of FED, it is still Congress that created it with their Act – as far as is it legally “an Officer or Department” of the Government – no… I don’t think so… not exactly…
            And, it appears that in the name of “appearances” and “being politically correct” the Congress has declared that they should have no rewal oversight of the FED whatsoever so that they “don’t play politics with it”.
            Don’t you love that. This is their new – save their own faces excuse in their own twisted and corrupt minds…
            They tell us they are so untrustworthy and corrupt and given to temptations that in order for something to work properly and function without criminal political manipulation THEY MUST KEEP THEMSELVES ENTIRELY OUT OF IT.
            Of course they say it absolutely seriously, apparently they need to keep their enemy colleagues out of the matter(s). LOL
            So, Congress shoves off responsibility on another Officer, Agency, Department, or Entity they created – then they point the finger…
            Congress could remove the FED today – it does not exist without their permission, as ugly as that is.

        • JC

          I don’t believe the Fed is foreign owned. It was strted by American bankers and corporatists…Morgan, Getty and a few more…
          But one thing for sure…they aren’t an elected group and they have zero compassion for and much control over “We the People”.
          The Federal Reserve is not Federal and it has no Reserves! The whole thing is a lie.

          • Rod James

            JC, When JP Morgan died it was brought to light that he was not the major share holder of the company that bore his name.The Rothschild family were the major share holders and Morgan was in effect their employee.

          • JC

            Somehow, I don’t doubt that actually.

          • James

            JC, The Federal Reserve System was started by American bankers, but who international ties. Billions of the first bailout dollars went to foreign banks and we still don’t know who got it. Chairman Ben Bernanke was asked who received that money, by the Senate Judiciary Committee, and he said he didn’t know.

          • JC

            And that is disgusting.

        • http://donthaveone Beberoni

          Yes they should. If the government has the power to make major league baseball owners open up their books and divulge their finances to the players association, then they sure ought to have enough moxy to make the Fed open up their books to both government and public eyes, that we may all see where the money is.

          • SiliconDoc

            Well, I don’t believe any of the banks in the world are actually solvent anymore.
            It’s all based upon libtard psychology now – they told us if they didn’t jam the bank takeover loans down the throats of all the banks, good and bad, then lo and behold, word would get out which banks got loans and there would be “It’s a Wonderful Life” bank run on those banks and by golly then the Government taxpayer/fiat printing loans will disappear in a cloud of panic smoke…
            Hence, immense secrecy and total loan takeovers must have ensued for success…as well as auditing, political hackery, massive insider deals, stock market billionaire makings, etc etc.
            I guess we all just “trust” those wonderfully seper secret save the world types – the supermen Clark Kents of our day to Save the Planet, Daily.
            Gosh, no one could possibly be on the take or on the scam… huh.

    • http://donthaveone Beberoni

      You are dead right. The Fed is a ponzi scheme itself.

  • http://tps01@ctc.net Tom McC

    Welcome to the UVA – United Venzuela of America. Obamanation is an exact replica of the way Chavez took over Venzuela. In fact our Socialist government has know about devaluing the currency to cement their power as it was learned in Russia at Lenin/Stalin’s time and Marx/Ingles pontificated on the “redistribution” as far back as 1848.

    The socialist party (Democrat) has been building (like Lenin) since FDR’s time and as will happen 78 years from now or three full generations liberty will again arise and overthrow the government.
    The “money” question is the ultimate tool and you hit the nail on the head: Americans either can’t understand due to the failed education system today (again all part of the plan) or don’t care. So many don’t care until it hits them directly. As long as it can be hidden, the socialist work will continue. My great grand children will have to be the ones to cast off our sins.

    • Raggs

      Tom your correct but there is a bigger problem at hand.
      The government want’s people ( the public ) to be dependant upon them.
      This is how they get away with most of the lie’s and corruption. And it actually work’s, most people are blind because they figure big brother will take care of them., but in reality big brother is the cause of the problem.

      • denniso

        You guys are so full of baloney that it’s hard to fathom just how clueless you are. You all repeat the same crap and it’s like incestuous intellectualism, though it’s hardly ‘intellectual’. You could all do well by volunteering your time to help kids or build a house for the poor or feed the hungry..you’ve gone off the deep end and are utterly wasting your time w/ this ranting and blowing hot air..though I imagine your time isn’t worth much anyway.

        • American Citizen

          Your statements show just how clueless you are. We can figure all this our by ourselves. All you have to do is read the tea leaves, or oak leaves, or table leaves, or all leaves. If you can’t see what’s happening, you have to have your eyes closed.

        • George

          Really. Where did we go wrong?

        • JC

          I donate time to build houses for the poor all the time. I also put about 20 kids a year through school in S. America…and you’re head is still so full of air I’m surpised you’re house broken.

        • Rod James

          Stop ranting.

        • James

          Denniso, living with a faulty system isn’t the American way. Allowing a central bank to create money out of thin air ain’t kosher.

        • DaveH

          If you think intelligence is measured by how much money your gang can steal from others, then I guess you are indeed intelligent Denniso.

        • http://donthaveone Beberoni

          But when your living on the government handouts like denniso, none of this matters to you, because he doesnt work, doesnt pay taxes, and doesnt have a bank account, as he is one of those guys that lives on the shoulders of us working people. Thats why he continually votes democrat, and continually gets nowhere, and continually makes his nonsense comments on these posts.

          • DaveH

            Beberoni,
            I suspect he works for the government. But we will never know for sure as it is unlikely that he would tell the truth.

        • Mike

          denniso’s a fed…wink wink!

        • cr747

          Well, denniso, what do you think about Dodd, Dorgan, Gov. Bill Ritter, along with two from Illinois saying it’s over for us, we are out of here because we couldn’t win if we ran again. (SO SAD) Not only Democrats, but some Republicans to!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Swallow dude or you are going to choke!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

          • Michael J.

            Agreed, the ones you mentioned are the democrat equivilant to suicide bombers. They sacrificed their political lives while killing our future, in order to satisfy the wishes of their Muslim Master.
            Obama Akhbar!

      • http://donthaveone Beberoni

        This is true. And all the democrat voters are the ones so dependant on the government, when the government is the very ones that are keeping them poor and dependant with their little hand outs.

    • http://victorbarney@embarqmail.com Victor L Barney

      NOT to mention, that BEN FRANKLIN was a member of the ILLUMINATI, WHO STARTED THIS “NEW WORLD ORDER” CONCEPT IN AMERICA WAY BACK AT THE BEGINNING!!! SOUNDS PRETTY MARXIST TO ME!

      • JC

        Victor, you keep saying that. What eveidence is there that Franklin was a menber of the Illuminati? He was very probably a mason…but the Illuminati?

      • Mike

        BF was a mason! Illuminati was formed May 1, 1776. By the time the theory arrived in America, he was nearly on his death bed!

    • Sandy

      Check out Leonidcat’s Hilter history lesson below. that’s exactly how it happens to us. We sit in front of our TV’s and watch the swill the candidates put out, then we read the newspapers and the same crap only different day. They sell themselves to the American public like a box of cereal and we all believe. We never actually go back and try and research where they came from, who they are, how they voted, what their qualification are, and best of all how they got through the party ranks to run for election or re-election. We are stupid cattle if we believe what they tell us before and election. There is a great difference between running for election and once they are actually elected. They will say and do anything to get us to vote for them because they are corrupt and can’t be trusted. Both parties are the same in that regard and we need to change that somehow. I usually try and find a good Libertarian or Constitutional party to support but that’s not always possible. The news media will portray third parties and fringe elements and cooks and nuts – that’s not true a lot of time but we listen and perceive it to be true because if they do show anything about them it’s out of context and usually not accurate. Keep calling and writing your congressional leaders – put the heat on them to do what they promised. Otherwise vote responsibly next election – research and take some time to know your candidate.

  • Danny Kirkpatrick

    Yes, WE THE PEOPLE, were asleep, for oh so many years. Trusting our elected representatives to run our Great Nation. WE were wrong, now we must clean up this mess. I am 51 years old, and i don’t remember when it was put up for a vote to take us off the gold standard. I would have voted NO on something so STUPID. Now all our printed dollars depend on the ” World “, to except as the number one currency. There are a LOT of country’s that hate us because we are a free people. That threatens there power. China is one of those nations. Obama thinks that because we owe them TRILLION’S of ” Dollars “, they will not try to destroy us. Well they told him to his face other wise. I once saw a video of a group of Congressmen and Senators, with the press, go to Fort Knox to see the gold. They were LEAD into a very small room with gold bars from floor to ceiling, about 7 or 8 feet high, and after all the ooos and ahhhhs, they were PROUDLY told, ” And we have 100 more rooms just like this, “. I would have demanded to see every room, every bar of gold. I believe today there is no gold, or at least very little gold left in Fort Knox. If the World rejects our currency we will HAVE to fall back to the gold standard. Without the gold in Fort Knox, we will truly be broke and devastated.

    • Raggs

      I wonder how many of those bar’s are lead painted gold?

      • http://victorbarney@embarqmail.com Victor L Barney

        RAGGS: ALL OF THEM, THE ORIGINALS HAVE BEEN STOLEN LONG AGO!

  • Winghunter

    While what you say is true, all who are responsible for creating the environment to make this possible have been named and reasons revealed.

    Bubbles and bailouts were and are being used by Socialists/Communists/Racists as a tool to redistribute the wealth/racial reparations, payback to unions and growing government. The Community Reinvestment Act was used to destroy our economy behind our backs.

    Read Dr. Thomas Sowell’s ‘The Housing Boom and Bust’ and get over to American Thinker and search all of their articles.

    The fact our elected officials planned this and/or didn’t do enough to stop the ones who pushed this on us is beyond high treason, it is sabotage!

    • George

      Winghunter,

      I can’t help but wonder to what extent the socialist are using this process to drive us to a socialist state. Right now, I have to admit that they do appear to be in charge of the Democratic Party and driving harder than usual in that direction. (Obama and his advisors seem to have an obsession on doing this.) However, I’m inclined to think that the system is such that even those who aren’t interested in moving to a socialized state are allowing gravity to pull them in that direction just so they can win votes and make political pay-offs. Also, I would imagine some (maybe a lot) are trying to create influential political and business relationships so they can profit after they leave office, and a few are even driven to try to become immortalized by getting new government buildings, new bridges, etc. named after themselves. In all cases, the common thread is they need our money to get where they want to go, and we have blindly allowed them to do this at our expense. After all, for every $300M received in new taxes, we only have to pay about $1 per person. That’s not very much and won’t get us motivated to get off the couch to complain. With that $300M our government can borrow a lot more, maybe $3B. This is a lot of money to throw around and we only had to pay $1 per person to get it. Of course, we have to pay $1 this year and every year for the rest of our lives to service this debt. After awhile, this gets to be a lot more than $1 as the government found out how easy it was to get the first $1, they just continue the process until we’re where we are today. THE SYSTEM IS CORRUPT, AS ARE THE PEOPLE WHO WORK IN IT AND RECEIVE MONEY FROM IT, AND THIS HAS GOT TO STOP!

      • DaveH

        Whether we go to Marxism, Communism, or any other ism, the government always is on top, so what do they care? And like any corporation, they have an inherent inclination to build it as big as they can. We need to recognize that Big Government has taken on a life of its own and it doesn’t matter whether it is run by Democrats or Republicans. We still lose. The only answer to this is to elect the only people I know who have been advocating for decrease in government size for the last 40 years. That is the Libertarian Party. Let’s get back to real Freedom:
        http://libertarianparty.org/platform

        • cr747

          DaveH, just waiting for Obama to come out dressed like Castro with his fatigues made by MOM!!!!!!!!!!!

      • Larry Hill

        George, I agree with you that it has to stop. Think how it really works! Our gov. requests 10 billion, the treasury prints up some bonds to cover that much money, the federal reserve types on a computer 10 billion and sends it to the treasury digitally, the treasury sends the bonds to the federal reserve. The federal reserve can now sell these bonds to whoever they can and put the money in their pocket. Now WE THE PEOPLE have a tax liability for 10 billion plus interest. The federal reserve only typed the number they didn’t give the gov. anything, yet they collect 100 plus% or hold that much debt on us which has consumed our gold from Fort Knox and our national parks and lands and lives it is a farce and robbery. How Jim thinks this is fair and lawful is unbelievable. People like him and their attitude about it is why it has happened and why it continues to happen.

        • George

          What a sham! Thanks.

  • Herbert Johnson

    Everyone is attacking the tail of the snake. If some natural catasrophe happened at the Bilderberger meeting, our problems would be solved. Cut off the head of the snake and it will not be dangerous.

    • http://victorbarney@embarqmail.com Victor L Barney

      Herbert, WAKE-UP!!! WE ARE THE HEAD OF THE SNAKE!

      MAYBE, NOT YOU OR I, BUT OUR GOVERNMENT DEFINITELY IS, WAS, AND WILL REMAIN JUST THAT!!!

    • Rod James

      Herbert, It would be interesting to see if that would make a difference. I think that even though the Biidebergers are very powerful
      in their influence on the economies of the world, they are just part of an more powerful group of individuals and it wouldn’t really change things much.

    • Larry Hill

      Herbert, I agree with you!! but the Bilderbergers and the federal reserve are the same bunch.

      • J C

        Toss in the UN and the CFR for good measure.

  • George

    Bob,

    I want to thank you for bringing up this topic for discussion, and pointing out how government debt actually taxes citizens in a very sinister way through devaluation of their USD valued assets. I don’t know who all benefit from this, but I can clearly see that the system is corrupt and most all who work in it (ie, our political representatives). Politicians figured out a long time ago that they could simply print/borrow money to buy votes through political pay-offs, social give-away programs, and the like. All they would have to do is pay the interest on the debt to keep the process going. This way they could leverage their spending by billions of dollars. The rub comes when they have to raise taxes just to pay the interest on the debt, because taxes are much more apparent to citizens than depreciation of their assets, which we’ve all come to expect within “reasonable” limits. And, so long at the interest and taxes that are taken out of the economy don’t slow it down too much, most people don’t recognize what’s really going on. However, at times like we’re in right now, it’s much more apparent, and folks are pushing back. Hopefully, we won’t become complacent once again when/if the economy revives and just continue looking the other way and allowing this corruption to continue at our expense. ENOUGH IS ENOUGH…..

    • Sandy

      Nice work George. Except the Federal Reserve is mostly to blame. There is absolutely no over sight of the Fed and they pretty much do what they want. In fact, their board is made up of around 6 representatives who are elected from big central banking institutions. It’s like the fox and hen house thing. During the fury of the bailouts, the Fed loaned out 2 Trillion dollars and they refuse to say where it wen and what the terms of the loans were. To this day, even though there has been numerous request, they have not come forward with this information. In fact, when a high ranking officer of the Fed was questioned by the banking committee, she repeatedly said she “would have to be back to them on that”. Many think the money (our money since we taxpayers pay the interest on the national debt to the Fed) believe that the money went to other countries to shore up their banks. Nice to know we could help out the rich bankers not only in our country but the around the world as well.

      • Robert

        Thatis because our bankers control the other. There are central banks all over the world. Why do you think? Global currency is on the way.

        • JC

          And let’s not forget that central banks and control of the currency are the 5th Plank of the Communist Manifesto’s 10 Planks.

        • SiliconDoc

          What the heck do you think the Dollar already is ?
          I guess the plot to outlaw all other currency worldwide failed.

      • George

        Sandy,

        Thanks for adding that clarification. I agree with you 100%. Thanks for the input.

  • Sam

    All I can say is that the bubble will burst very soon. Economists such as Gerald Celente, Bob Chapman, and others are predicting the bubble bursting as early as April this year. That means a bank holiday. My mother, who is 87, can tell you about that. It was only for a day, so people took it in stride. Not so today. With our procrastinator in chief, it will probably take a month. That means no checks, debit, or credit cards. That means, good, old-fashioned CASH (even if it is fake). Do you have a supply of cash? Do you have a year’s worth of food? I know I sound like a foil-hat “preppie,” someone to be laughed at; but, whilst you’re running to your “messiah” Obongo for help, I’ll be thanking the God of Isaac and Abraham for giving me the knowledge and foresight to take matters into my own hands. So, talk and whine all you want. There are those who make things happen, and thank you God for giving me the strength for doing so!

    • http://tvforfreedom.com MrHeid

      Well said Sam! When the lights go out, it’s going to get very ugly indeed.

    • JC

      Stocking up on cash, food, lead and place in the country with excellent fields of fire…and a swing set! :)

  • Leonidcat

    Here’s a little REAL history for you about Hitler. Germany was like us, they were well educated, articulate and business oriented, so how could this happen? In our country we did the same thing – elected someone we know nothing about, who has never held a real job, or even run a business. Who worked unendingly for a purely MARXIST organization and we thought we would get change. The only people that will see change is the working people and the already poor.

    “How did he get people on Hilter’s side? He did it by promising jobs to the jobless, money to the money-less, and rewards for the military-industrial complex. He did it by indoctrinating the children, advocating gun control, health care for all, better wages, better jobs, and promising to re-instill pride once again in the country, across Europe , and across the world. He did it with a compliant media – did you know that? And he did this all in the name of justice and …. . .. change. And the people surely got what they voted for.”

    Maybe next election we will think better, research our candidates better and vote for the third party candidates more if we can find good ones.

    • DaveH

      Leo,
      They wouldn’t need to be so good if the government wasn’t into every aspect of the economy. I think the most important thing we need to strive for is electing representatives that promise to cut back the size of Government. That means getting rid of many agencies that really are not necessary. For instance, the Department of Education. Why does the Federal Government need to be in the Education process? Our forefathers would have rolled over in their graves. And the Department of Energy. What have they done for us? They certainly haven’t made us less dependant on Foreign Oil (which was their mandate when created).

      • SiliconDoc

        Hey, how about we have em close the government agencies that are epic failures…
        You mention the DOEnergy – that it’s landmark creation duty was to make us energy independent…well there’s epic fail. Shut it down.
        Then the DOeducation – who cares what it’s creation excuse was, there we have epic failure.(except for the communists). Shut down.
        That would be a great tool to use.
        Now the FED. To keep the value of teh dollar steady and prevent large inflation or deflation.
        EPIC FAILURE.

    • JC

      Exactly right. Above all, NEVER give up your guns.

    • Rod James

      Leonidcat,Even though he turned out to be a madman, Hitler did have a positive affect on the economy of Germany.The Weimar Republic was in deep debt(loans from the US) paying for WW1 reparations and then the stock market crashed cutting off the US funds.Hitler then bipassed the Banking system and printed gov vouchers which could be exchanged for food, housing etc.The people were put to work building infastructure such as the Auto Bahn.The country went from hyper inflation (the mark was worth on trillionth of its original value)to one of the most advanced and powerful in the world in less than twenty years.
      Unfortunatly with power comes corruption and we all know where that story ended.

    • http://donthaveone Beberoni

      Oh my gosh, I never made that connection. It seems that Obama is Hitlers black son. Everything has been done the same way so far. Amazing correlation.

      • Rod James

        Beberoni, Not quite “everything the same way”.Obama hasn’t bypassed the
        monetary system but I wish he would.He never would by pass “the system’
        as he is employed by it.

  • Meteorlady

    Has anyone studied the 1980′s? There was pretty much the same thing, almost like a test run, with banks only it was the Savings and Loans. We also had the oil shortages yet ships were sitting off the coast of Texas totally full and not unloading. While I am not a conspiracy theorist, I can see by reading history things are starting to accelerate at an alarming rate. What I can’t see is why people would destroy their own country and their own citizens for greed. Sam is probably right, we need to take care of ourselves. Food, things to barter with and guns. Or maybe while we still have money we should move to Panama and live better. At least that government is doing something to grow and prosper.

    • Sandy

      I also think that things are accelerating. After the Savings and Loan thing worked out so good for the banks, Wall Street and big commercial banks start clamoring that they needed to be able to do what the Saving & Loans were doing so they got a bill passed. The oil companies were also happy because the increased the price of gasoline so everyone involved learned to better rip us off.

  • stewart rohrig

    robing hoods of shamwood forest

    chairman rooster cogburn bernake has just announced the blood letting will continue through 2010,so all you bank depositors of shamwood forest who collect intrest continue to hold up your hands,the robbery is still going on, our times magazine hero has struck again,big banks and wall st dont have enough of your money yet he still has you covered with his rusty trusty six shooter rate gun so watch out he may be desperate he only has one bullet left and he may fire it anytime and finish you off soon as wall st. tells him to, remember hes no real rooster more like chicken little his buddies are allready popping champange corks and breaking out the silver slippers so drink up you bernie madoff clones we know you got the gold mine and we got the shaft

  • http://N/A Mary

    People, please go to GOOOH.com (get out of our house) and get involved in getting rid of the house and the senate after that!
    Hurry, the time to repair this damage is now, but I fear we may be waaaaaaaay to late!

    • Bruce

      It amazes me to read the above comments. Every bloger seems to believe that the World can be made fair and that the US government, with “the separation of powers,” can operate as designed. This is, if one looks at the past 5000 years of history, a utopian delusion. The world works according to the “Golden Rule”; the ones with the gold make the rules. Henry Paulson did what all ruling powers have done: keep the wealth for the owners. Reading the above comments about whether or not income tax is CONSTITUTIONAL, or whether or not the Federal Reserve is CONSTITUTIONAL? The lobbyists, the ruling arm of the military-industrial complex, have run this country since Eisenhower.

      • George

        Bruce,

        What’s your recommendation for making America better? What should we do?

  • Diver Dan

    Back in the 80′s I made a mistake, I sold some real estate and put all the cash in First Maryland S&L, which shortly thereafter closed the doors with my money in it.First they said they would pay interest on the funds, then they realizes that they would never get out of the hole they dug, they soon stopped interest.It took me over 3 years to get my ” INSURED MONEY”out of the system, and only with a ” Hardship Case”
    While the bank officials were out spending like there was no tomorrow, going to resturants ordering enough food to fee their family for the next week , with the bank funds.
    Who make the most?The politicians and their buddies and backers.The Banks that got the money gave out bonuses,to incompetent managers, teh insurance companies, the same, all to pay back campain donations,
    The unions get to keep their jobs for a while, but soon when this house collapses, I will be leaving this country, sorry guys, I spent 6 years in the military defending what I thought was the best country in the world, then the Dems took over with Jimmy Carter, who hired Burt Lance as Treasurers, the whole economy started to fall apart.
    The Congress gets a retirement package second to none, and they do not want to go on this new medical plan,,because theirs is Better.
    Good Luck. Who Benefts? Not We the People.

  • Dora

    The FED needs to be AUDITED. We really need to go back to the GOLD standard so they cannot print all that money.

    • http://donthaveone Beberoni

      Not only the Fed, I think every Governor and Senator and congressman should be audited, and those found with money they shouldnt have, and money they didnt pay taxes on, should be removed from office and put in jail. Then we wouldnt have to wait to 2010 and 2012 to sweep their worthless butts out of office. Most of them would allready be out.

      • George

        I believe it’s been reported that several in Congress and the administration have not paid their income taxes, and they haven’t been thrown in jail, or made to pay, if I’m not mistaken. The system and most all in it are corrupt…..

      • cr747

        Beberoni you can bet your bottom that if it was you or I not paying our taxes, they would definitely put us in jail!!!!!!!!!!

        • http://donthaveone Beberoni

          And that I just dont understand. Why does not the law apply to these leeches in public office? Why? Who are they that they are above the law? They are a bunch of crooks, and everyone of them that got caught, shame on you voters of that state if you re-elect them. You are as bad as they are if you vote for them.

  • Vicki

    The most important single thing to teach is the law of supply and demand. It works across every possible economic system. It is easier to defeat the law of gravity then the law of supply / demand.

    The law applies to EVERYTHING including whatever is used for “money”. Thus if you have an item like a bar of gold and you have another item you would like to trade for like a car you can give that bar of gold to the car owner in trade or you can give that bar of gold to someone with “money” and take the “money” to the car owner.

    If there is a lot of “money” then you will be able to get lots of “money” for your bar of gold. Which is a good thing cause the car owner will want lots of “money” for the car.

    Now to assets. If you have assets like gold, real estate, stocks (in good companies) they will all go up in apparent value because there is more “money” available. This is the one error in the article. Your assets will appear to increase in value against “money” cause the supply of “money” has been greatly increased recently.

    Your bar of gold will still buy 1 car unless the demand for gold (in the car owner) goes up then you might be able to buy the car for 1/2 a bar of gold. Remember the law of supply / demand works EVERY WHERE. Not even Marx was able to stop it.

    • George

      Vicki,

      Thanks for the instruction on supply/demand. I agree with you, but just thought I would try to clarify your comment related to a greater supply of money makes the apparent value of assets increase. Basically, you’re saying that the more money the government prints and puts into circulation, the lower the value of the existing money already in circulation has. This means the value of the US dollar falls, and causes inflation because it takes proportionally more USD to buy things. This makes the apparent value of the assets worth more USDs, but their net value remains about the same since the USDs are worth less. Correct?

      • DaveH

        The word “value” in my book refers to the amount of goods or services that would be accepted in exchange for your item. And you’re right, that would change only with supply and demand. I prefer to think of the amount of dollars that would be required to buy a car (for instance) as the “price” of the car. So for instance, as the number of dollars increase, the price of the car would increase, but the value would remain the same unless supply and demand changed that.
        At any rate, I know what Sally and you mean. The English language can be vague.

      • Vicki

        George says:
        ” Basically, you’re saying that the more money the government prints and puts into circulation, the lower the value of the existing money already in circulation has.”

        Correct. Because the supply of money has gone up but the demand has not the value of a unit of money goes down. One of the key reasons we did not see hyperinflation in the 70s (though house price trippling in 3 years looked hyper to me :) is the DEMAND for units of money went up too. All those baby boomers wanting money.

        Now we are faced with an increase in the supply of money that makes that time look like a pebble on the road and the baby boomers are grown. Maybe a demand for units of money (dollar) from foreign interests can cope but I am not holding my breath.

        • George

          Vicki,

          Thanks for the clarification and education. Best regards.

  • Jim

    Sally,

    Can you please explain how you arrived at the fact that the Federal Reserve is “owned mostly by foreign banks” and which Amendment to the Constitution is being violated.

    While you are at it, please clarify WHICH of our “forefathers predicted” WHAT “would happen” if WHAT “were the case.”

    • JC

      The Fed was created at Jekyll Island Georgia:

      The Creature from Jekyll Island:
      http://raymondpronk.wordpress.com/2009/03/26/creature-from-jekyll-island-the-federal-reserve-system-videos/

      Thomas Jefferson once said:

      “I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies . . . If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their currency, first by inflation, then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around [the banks] . . . will deprive the people of all property until their children wake-up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered . . . The issuing power should be taken from the banks and restored to the people, to whom it properly belongs.” — Thomas Jefferson — The Debate Over The Recharter Of The Bank Bill, (1809)

      • Jim

        First: G Edward Griffin is a film producer and an author like Michael Moore. Why would anyone allow anything that either of them has written or said influence their beliefs?

        Second: What Thomas Jefferson said in 1809 was proven not true then, and it isn’t true today. Promoted by Treasury Secretary Alexander Hamilton, Congress established the first central bank in the US in Philadelphia in 1791. Primarily because Jefferson’s opposition caused mistrust of a large and powerful central bank amongst the people, when the charter for the First Bank of the United States expired in 1811 after 20 years, Congress refused to renew it by one vote.

        Five years later, Congress, recognizing that it had made a mistake, agreed to charter the Second Bank of the United States; however, Andrew Jackson’s attack on bankers’ power touched the public’s nerve, and Congress allowed its charter to expire in 1836.

        From then until Lincoln became president, many banks, both state chartered and unchartered, that issued their own notes cropped up, and many failed due to bank runs, financial panics, fraud and mismanagement. Because of that concern, the National Banking Act of 1863 was passed providing for federal chartered banks whose notes had to be backed by US government securities.

        Despite the fact that the 1863 act established some stability, bank runs and financial panics continued. When a banking panic that triggered the worst depression the US had ever seen in 1893 and failed speculation on Wall Street that triggered a severe banking panic in 1907, it became clear to the citizenry and the lawmakers that the nation’s banking system needed serious reform; therefore, the Federal Reserve System was born in 1913.

        Whether we agree with the Fed’s policies isn’t the issue; the fact is that history has proven that a nation needs a central banking system. Central banks manage the monetary policies of their countries, which includes issuing currency, maintaining the country’s FOREX and gold reserves, managing money supply, and managing the cost of credit by setting interest rates. The monetary policy enforced by a central bank is used in general to influence economic activity and control inflation.

        • AnhydrousBob

          I still don’t buy it, Jim.

          Lets see some references to what you have said. Also, where is the proof (other than your statements) that Jefferson and Jackson were wrong, as you have stated, and Congress was correct?

          We are talking about central control (central Bank) versus decentralized “control”. Lets talk about which industry is the most controlled – regulated one today. I think that would be the financial/banking one. Look at what has happened to it. Seems to me we need less control, less regulations, less guarantees – seems we need to let the bad actors die, and those that are worthy to survive.

          For this to take place we need a playing field where the laws are simple and where the referee’s are not playing favorites when they are not sleeping. The simplest laws are those natural laws of supply and demand, and unencumbered free markets. We had that from time to time and our economy flourished. When we had more controls, they languished, or alternatively overheated and chilled.

          Today, you can preach that we need more regulations and a central bank to make the banking system work, but how do you explain the Wiemar Republic and the nasty situation we find ourselves in today?

          • Jim

            References to what? Surely, you aren’t questioning that G Edward Griffin and Michael Moore are film producers and authors, so it must be that you are questioning historical facts. If you are more specific about what you want me to provide references for, I will be happy to accommodate you.

            Are you for real when you contend that the financial/banking industry is the most controlled? It has gotten less and less controlled since a financial deregulation bill was passed in the early 1980s under the Reagan administration, lifting many restrictions on the activities of savings and loan associations. The S&L industry had previously been limited primarily to the home-loan market. The result of their deregulation was an orgy of speculation, profiteering and outright plundering of assets, culminating in collapse and the biggest financial bailout in US history up to that time, costing the federal government more than $500 billion.

            Then in 1999 the Glass–Steagall Act that separated investment and commercial banking activities was repealed which among many other things opened the door for financial institutions to invest depositors’ funds in volatile financial instruments like credit default swaps. We now know that was one of the major reasons for the financial industry needing the government bail out to prevent it collapse.

            While it’s true that the industry needs fewer guarantees, it certainly needs more controls and regulations to prevent another meltdown like we are currently experiencing. Deregulation is what got us where we are today.

            Now it’s my turn to ask you to cite your authorities for your statement that when we had more controls, the economy languished, and it flourished when we had fewer controls. Tell me one country that doesn’t have a central banking system that is flourishing. Elaborate on what you mean by the vague statement “how do you explain the Wiemar (sic) Republic and the nasty situation we find ourselves in today.”

          • http://donthaveone Beberoni

            In reference to a point Jim is making, or trying to make, or maybe Im taking it wrong, but I wouldnt believe a single word that comes out of the mouth of Michael Moore. He has be exposed to be one the most biased, biggest liars of all time. He wouldnt know the truth if it hit him.

        • JC

          Jim Says:
          Whether we agree with the Fed’s policies isn’t the issue; the fact is that history has proven that a nation needs a central banking system.

          You’re advocating communism;
          The 5th Plank

          5. Centralization of credit in the hands of the state, by means of a national bank with State capital and an exclusive monopoly.

          Americans call it the Federal Reserve which is a privately-owned credit/debt system allowed by the Federal Reserve act of 1913. All local banks are members of the Fed system, and are regulated by the Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation (FDIC) another privately-owned corporation. The Federal Reserve Banks issue Fiat Paper Money and practice economically destructive fractional reserve banking.

          And as far as The Creature From Jekyll Island, there are hundreds of sources as to it veracity, but liberals hear only what they want to hear…and the truth be damned.

          • Jim

            How about the tenth plank? If a person supports it, is he espousing communism? You certainly must be intelligent enough to realize that there are many commonalities between different forms of government.

            Are you trying to contribute to this discussion as a player, or are you just standing on the sideline being a cheerleader with your inapplicable, inappropriate and insulting comments?

          • JC

            How about the 5th Plank and the way in which it exactly applies to this thread? The way in which it exactly applies to the ponzi scheme we call The Fed? I do0n’t give a rat’s ass about commonalities. America was born different than anything before it in history…so get a mitt and get in the game. Or just admit that you are a communist and go find a new home somewhere.

        • DaveH

          Jim,
          The Savings and Loan Collapse was a result of Government Regulation, not in spite of it. Under the mandatory insurance of FSLIC, the banks engaged in risky loans because they were “insured”. As with any insurance, the insured use the services more than they would if they had to pay out of their own pockets. And the depositors are lulled into complacency because their deposits are insured. Otherwise they would have watched the actions of the Savings and Loan Companies more carefully. Insurance, like Socialism, costs more because somebody has to support the middleman, and as pointed out the insured actually consume more of the insured goods or services than they would have previously. So you have a double-whammy.
          Regulations have not decreased. They have increased:
          http://reason.org/news/show/the-myth-of-financial-deregula

          • DaveH

            How much more regulation do you Liberals have to throw at our economy until you figure out that Government is the problem, not the solution.
            You want to spend $2 trillion dollars to save $1 trillion dollars.
            Look at this list of countries ranked by their economic freedom and tell me that the most regulated countries are the most desirable:
            http://www.heritage.org/index/

          • http://donthaveone Beberoni

            Is the the same collapse that Bwarney Fwank was supposed to be the watch dog of, and refused an investigation that President Bush wanted to have on it?

          • Jim

            If the Savings & Loan industry hadn’t have been deregulated, there would have never been the crisis that resulted in the biggest financial bailout in US history up to that time.

            While regulated, there was never a nationwide meltdown of the Savings & Loan industry. Go figure!

  • Louis Jepsen

    Reading this makes me extremely glad I am a Christian, (Biblical kind) as I can look forward to something. My economic picture is grim indeed as I am fully retired and living on what has been a sufficient income. Now I think I am in for a real drubbing that will last longer than I will. As one other said, “in uniform for” six years, I too thought this the greatest country on earth and worth fighting for. Now if I were younger I would be looking to go elsewhere, especially if unattached. When you have children and grandchildren here it would be difficult to leave. I wonder if something akin to the Zealots of the Bible will come about and we have political, religious, and media assasinations?

    • Jim

      Where would you go? Asia is full of Chinese people, Indians and Russians. Europe is full of socialists. If you have nothing to offer Australia, they wouldn’t take you. You would be considered an infidel, be hated and maybe beheaded in the Middle East. You wouldn’t stand a chance of surviving in Somalia, Chad and most African countries. Mexico and Central and South American are mostly dirty, overpopulated and poor countries with high crime rates. That leaves only Canada, but their medical care system sucks.

      Man, you’re stuck here with the rest of us in the country you once thought was the greatest on earth and worth fighting for. If you don’t learn to like it, you will just have to keep being miserable. Sorry about that!

    • http://donthaveone Beberoni

      Sometimes a man has to be man, and stand up and fight for what he believes in, and hold his ground, and fully believe the Lord will prosper him if he remains righteous and fights for the right things.

  • JC

    Detroit as a Laboratory of bail outs and bureaucratic promises:

    Or rather, what’s left of it:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1hhJ_49leBw&feature=player_embedded

  • http://excite bob castronovo

    finally, there is talk about the one world government. in 1913 congress passed the federal reserve act without a quorum. the major stock holder was the house of rothchild, a major force in establishing a one world government. his major obsticle was the freedom loving usa. he knew the usa could not be conquered by war or religeon but through the federal reserve they could create fiat money and rob the value of our dollar. how patient they were. they waited until the american people were so dumbed down that debt became a novelty. during the depression you could go to the store and buy a quart of milk, a loaf of bread and a cube of butter for a quarter. because of the fiat noney the above items cost around $6.50 or more. the schools never taught why (inflation). now the usa is about to be defeated through fanancial fiat. the financial planners who gained control of our wealth are awaiting the one world government led by obama. bob castronovo

    • JC

      True. The house of Rothschild infiltrated the banking systems of 5 European countries shortly after war of independence. The first was England.

    • Raggs

      Very good BOB!!!!
      I admire your sence of reality…
      In a manor of speaking yes the current deflation of the dollar has alway’s been planned which leads us up to “the” total government control. This however is not a failsafe.. coupled with healthcare and the ridiculous “force” used upon American’s to be subdued to a regime of dictator’s in a time of turmoil is the goal. This government will use anything at thier mean’s be it poverty, homelessness, or any other advantage’s they caused to complete thier reign. It seem’s they are alway’s using the poor as a crutch and it is one of the largest sin’s agaisnt God.
      ( using innocents ).. and so the ones holding the crutches are paralized against them and their lie’s. The government is a bunch of idiot’s they have no idea what they are getting themselves into and they will regret every minute of it. I ran off track… but the new world order..it’s been in the work’s for year’s…

    • http://donthaveone Beberoni

      Its biblical. In the end, there will be a one world government, ran by 10 nations, but right away 3 of them will be thrown out. Its all there if one cares to look, but they dont spend the money to make this all public, like the billions they spend trying to seek out evolution, and the Nostradamus baloney and such. But everything written has come to pass, and those yet to happen are coming, and everything preceeding them is happening right now. More floods, fires, earthquakes and catastrophies. The Bible tells all about this happening in the end times, and soon this one world government is going to come about, whether we like it or not. Its going to happen. It doenst mean give up and dont fight for whats right, but hey, its going to happen. Ive havent found the Bible to miss yet.

      • cr747

        Beberoni, so amazed at how true you are. I to can see what has happened, and what is going to happen. Everything is there in the Bible for anyone to read.I am so glad that we have a forgiving God, because without forgiveness can you imagine where we would be in this cruel world. The Government had better get into the Bible, and tell the MORMON President to get off the fence, and quit trying to make the American people believe any different!!!!!!!!!!!!

        • http://donthaveone Beberoni

          Yeah, Im blessed He is so forgiving, or He would have done away with my sinful butt a long time ago. I am total witness to His saving Grace. I should have been dead many times over the years, but He had different plans for me, some Ive realized, some I havent yet. But forgiving, oh yeah, very forgiving. If not, this country also would have been handed over to lesser dudes a long time ago. But thats where we are heading.

  • Larry Hill

    Bob Castronova, You are right on and anyone who doubts it should wake up and do some research or just look at the situation we’re in.

  • Jim

    Sally wrote, “The FED is NOT owned by the US Government,” which is true. She then wrote that the Fed “is a private corporation owned mostly by foreign banks.” I challenged that statement.

    Further, she wrote that foreign bank ownership of the Fed “IS VERY UNCONSTITUTIONAL.” I asked, “Which Amendment to the Constitution is being violated?”

    She said, “Our fore fathers (sic) predicted what would happen if this were (sic) the case and here we are!!!” I asked her to clarify that statement.

    Over seven hours later, no Sally and nobody defending her diatribe! Those like Sally and her ilk (bob castronovo, jc, raggs and Larry Hill) who try to defend their biases by making off-the-wall statements that have little, if any, truth to them are one of the problems with our country. Only informed people who have opinions backed by facts will prevent the problems from festering and causing havoc like that seen at the town hall meetings last year.

    I urge everyone not to state their opinions as facts and not to fabricate facts to back their opinions. Nothing is gained by that. It doesn’t add any intelligence to the debate on the issue, and it damages your credibility.

    • George

      Jim,

      I appreciate the information you’ve brought to this discussion. I think this certainly provides the basis for a richer debate. However, I do have one question: Are you this demanding of liberals in their discussion groups?

      • Jim

        ABSOLUTELY!

    • Michael J.

      Jim, Sally is right, the Fed is unconstitutional. That’s how President Andrew Jackson ran the first bums who tried it out of town prior to 1850. I would tell you how to find it but, you will learn more if you search it yourself. Here’s a hint, it happened about 110 years before Saul Alinsky came on the scene.

  • Dirk Man

    Thomas Jefferson said in 1802:

    ‘I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies. If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their currency, first by inflation, then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around the banks will deprive the people of all property until their children wake-up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered…’

  • Dirk Man

    Our forefathers were a bunch of radicals for their times. You have to admire that.

    Be informed, not just opinionated.

    • Jim

      What Thomas Jefferson said in 1809 was proven not true then, and it isn’t true today. See my reply to JC above that isn’t my opinion, but rather facts backed by history.

      • DaveH

        “Was proven not true then”. And how was that Oh Wise One? How come your opinions are fact, and other peoples’ aren’t? Your statements are full of opinions. Also, ridicule, and condescension. From that alone, I am assuming that you are a Liberal who can’t carry on a discussion without manipulative tactics.

        • http://donthaveone Beberoni

          He definately espews the Democrat outlook, that he is right and everyone should accept what he says, and that other arent allowed to have an opinion.

        • DaveH

          What is history if not words recorded by man. I have witnessed personally wrongfully recorded history. The best we can do as intelligent men is learn as much as possible and do our best to sort out which is valid and which is not.

          • http://donthaveone Beberoni

            And now we are having revisionist history, where the liberals are actually going back, and re-writing history books and science books to read things the way they believe it should be, not as it was.

  • Larry Hill

    Jim, yes you did challenge the statements made. Study history of andrew Jackson. He killed, (did not renew charter) and for 77 years this country operated without a central bank. The Federal Reserve is no more federal than Federal Express. You can challenge the statements made here or you can read history for yourself. The revolutionary war and the war of 1812 was both fought because of central banks. Through our earlier history our leaders were informed about central banks very few, like you, know anything about how this banking system we have operates. There is not enough space here to educate you. Go to website http://www.iamthewitness.com/DarylBradfordSmith Bankers.htm.
    it is pretty long but well worth the read.

    • Jim

      Who is Andrew Carrington Hitchcock and what makes him any more of an authority on the subject than you and me? There are thousands of Andy Hitchcocks who have opinions and profess to know history but have no credentials. How can you put any credibility in someone whose website is called thesynagogueofsatan?

      I’ll debate you until the cows come home and document my points with authoritative citations. Cite an authority who has credentials that contradicts what I say, and I’ll concede the point in a New York second, but please don’t throw crap like that into the debate.

      • Larry Hill

        Jim, I don’t know what website you went to but the name of the website I referred to has nothing to do with satan. I gave you the website, however the wabsite has a space in the address and I don’t know how to underline the whole thing on the tools I have here. Go back and type in the website and put a space between Smith and Bankers and you will get the website I sent you. It’s title is called the money masters.

        • Jim

          I found your link without any problem. According to links on the site you referenced, Andrew Hitchcock’s home page – He also wrote a book with that title.

  • Larry Hill

    Jim, I forgot to answere one of your questions. You asked what amendment was being broken. I don’t have the specific amendment in front of me but the constitution says that only congress has the power to coin money, An amendment was proposed and voted on but a constitutional amendment requires either a two thirds vote by congress or a three fourths vote of approval by states. Since the vote was held on Dec. 24 1913 right before christmas they did not have a chorum. So the thing was sold to the people as ratified by three fourths of the states. But if you go to the individual states capitals and check, only four ratified the amendment. Also the 16th amendment has been the authority that they are operating under to directly tax the US citizens. The constitution says that it must be an apportioned tax. This amendment too was never ratified.

    • Jim

      You are listening to bunk stuff that can’t be proven. If an adequate number of states hadn’t ratified an amendment, it wouldn’t be an amendment.

      Article 1, Section 8 says among several other things that “The Congress shall have Power … To coin Money, regulate the Value thereof, and of foreign Coin, and fix the Standard of Weights and Measures.” What it doesn’t say is that ONLY the Congress has that power, nor does it say that the Congress can’t delegate that power to another entity.

      Larry, you can’t make the Constitution say whatever you want it to say. The only body that has the authority to interpret the Constitution is the judicial system with the Supreme Court having the final say.

      • Vicki

        jim says:
        “….What it doesn’t say is that ONLY the Congress has that power, nor does it say that the Congress can’t delegate that power to another entity.”

        Let us look at Section 10 where the Constitution directly addresses your belief that Congress is not the only entity to have the power to coin money.

        ————————————————————————
        “Section 10 – Powers prohibited of States

        No State shall … coin Money; emit Bills of Credit; make any Thing but gold and silver Coin a Tender in Payment of Debts; …..”
        ————————————————————————
        Looks like they wanted to be clear that the power to coin money belongs to congress. True it did not say that the PEOPLE could not coin money. Therefor why is it a crime to make coins? So if as you say the Congress is not the only one allowed to make coins and the states are specifically admonished to NOT make coins I think you need to talk to the Treasury dept about all those counterfeiting cases. Now some of them will still be valid because the counterfeiter is trying to defraud by making coin that looks like it was made by Congress.

        You will note that I do not comment about paper (fiat) money as there is noting in the constitution authorizing Congress or anyone else to make paper money. In fact the states are prohibited from making paper money a tender in payment of debts.

        I looked at the amendments around 1913 and did not find any that changed the state of paper money even when it was backed by coins.

        • JC

          Right On Vicki!

        • Jim

          Read the whole article, and it becomes clear that you are taking it out of context. The article specifically addresses the powers prohibited to states and has nothing to do with this issue.

          The Constitution is like the Bible; it can be used to prove or disprove just about anything and everything when quoted out of context. Not you, I or anybody can interpret the Constitution. The Constitution grants that authority solely to the judiciary.

          • patrick H.T. paine

            HHHMMMMM…..”the power to interpret” may be a little hard to
            find…….but give it a try. Meanwhile, since any statute or law
            which is unclear is void ( unconstitutional ), then the constitution
            can not be unclear, ergo no interpretation is required. Of course,
            maybe it was really written in French and only the Supreme Court is
            aware of and has the original document?

          • http://donthaveone Beberoni

            Dont even try to compare the Constitution with the Bible. The Constitution though wise in its words, are the mere words of men, trying to make it a better place for us all. The Bible, is the word of God, breathed by the Holy Spirit, is all truth and is infallible. You can argue and try to refute it all you want, but in the end, one cannot defeat the truth. Gods wisdom cannot be beat. In fact in His most foolish moment, it is written that He is at that point still brighter than man when man is at his most brilliant moment.

          • JC

            Wrong! The Constitution grants power to three levels of government, not “solely” to the judiciary. I can’t imagine the founding fathers would put the fate of the country into the hands of a couple of government lawyers anyway. Good God, the crap that comes out of you sometimes.

  • Paul Revere

    Tand no state is to make any thing but gold and silver coin a payment of debit
    he U.S.Constitution is a bill of proabitions and cemented in concrete arnd the (word removed for offensive content) Element of Government is only allowed to borow and the Good credit of the Unityed states Washington dc and it territorys not on Any union Repunlic State e some of all rights protected by the Constitution No one addressed my comments and I will quote from memory Your (word removed for offensive content) Government are prohibited from any bank isuuing any notes that are not redemible back to gold and silver coin as it represents Life Forfiture. The Congress is only to mint and coin money nut print it ..A

    • http://donthaveone Beberoni

      Uh……Dude, ….Uh….., please try to work on your spelling. Its ok to miss a letter here and there, because we do that when we get to typing fast, but, when you miss like every other words, it doesnt come across very well. Its like huked on fonics didt wurk fur me.

      • Jim

        Man, you got that right!

  • http://www.personalliberty.com/personal-liberty-articles/who-gains-most-from-bubbles-and-bailouts/ scott NM

    The first commercial bank in the united states was also designed to be the first central bank.The charter of the Bank of North America was driven through the Continental Congress by Robert Morris in the spring of 1781. Morris,a wealthy Philadelphia merchant and congressman,had assumed virtually total economic and financial power during the Revolutionary war. As a war contractor,Morris siphoned off millions from the public treasury into contracts to his own mercantile and shipping firm and to those of his associates. Morris was also leader of the powerful Nationalist forces whose aim was to reimpose in the United States a system of Mercantilism and big government similar to that in Great Britain,against which the colonist had rebelled. The object was to have a strong central government,particlarly a strong president or king as chief executive, built up by high taxes and heavy public debt. Basically the United States was to have a British system without Great Britin. Part of the Morris scheme was to organize and head a central bank, to provide cheap credit expand money for himself and his allies. At this time the Bank of North America was granted a monopoly privilege of its notes being receivable in all duties and taxes to state and federal governments and at par with specie. In return for this monopoly to issue paper money the bank agreed to lend most of its newly created money to the federal gonernment. In return for this agreement, of course, the hapless taxpayers would have to pay the Bank princple and interest.Despite this monopoly the market’s lack of confidence in the inflated notes led to their deprecition outside the Bank’s home base in Philadelphia. The bank eventually failed. The comments over history proving the need for a central bank,I believe depend on your view of the roll of government in society. I fill I can make the best decision on how my wealth should be spent not the government!

    • Jim

      Indeed, Scott, you can make the best decision on how your wealth should be spent. Why do you believe that the government makes that decision?

      Didn’t you decide when to buy and how much to pay for your house? Your furniture and television? Your car? Don’t you decide which cable TV package you subscribe to? Cell phone provider you want? If you answer “no” to any of those questions, you don’t live under the same governmnet that the rest of us US citizens and residents do.

  • Larry Hill

    Jim, as far as my listening to bunk stuff, I think you have listened to too much tv. There has been numerous cases tried by the supreme court that says amendment 16 does not give congress any more powers of taxation than what it had before it was supposedly passed. It ,amendment 16,was supposed to be a temporary tax and also voluntary on only 2% of ones income. Look what we have now! You say to give you some info but when you get it you try to downgrade the messenger because you have not educated your self. You say that it has not been proven about the federal reserve not being ratified! That is not true either but as in the case of Obama not being a citizen of this country, the courts will not hear the case and if they will not hear it , it can not be decided.

  • http://www.personalliberty.com/personal-liberty-articles/who-gains-most-from-bubbles-and-bailouts/ scott NM

    “I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them”.Thomas jefferson. Jim you say what Thomas Jefferson said in 1809 was proven not true same as today based on what, please explain what statement and on what facts.I assume you are refering to the quote made by Dirk man. Inflationary monetary policies absolutely devalue my private property transactions which the dollar represents,this is a fact.

  • Jim

    Patrick H.T. Paine

    Any statute or law which is unclear may be declared void by a court, but it is not unconstitutional. I’m not sure where you could have gotten that information, but it’s just not true. Go to the following page on the Supreme Court website which is titled The Court and Constitutional Interpretation: http://www.supremecourtus.gov/about/constitutional.pdf. After reading it, it will be clear to you that the Constitution does indeed need interpretation, and the Supreme Court is indeed the body empowered to make it.

    Please don’t make statements that are simply untrue and can’t be proven to make a point that may be as ridiculous as the statement is. That’s the kinda crap that got thrown around at the tea parties and made them a sham.

    • DaveH

      So you think the citizens have no right to seek honest and moral representation? They bear witness to a government out of control and they have every right to protest. There is no law anywhere that says lack of knowledge precludes a citizen’s right to expect honest and moral representation. These people may not have degrees in political science but they can recognize when they are being screwed by their Government. The only sham that is being perpetrated in relation to the Tea Parties is the belittlement and condescension that they have received from controlling, thieving Liberals.

      • Jim

        Shame on you! You put a lot of words in my mouth. And if you are thinking that I am a controlling, thieving liberal, you couldn’t be further off the mark. I am probably the most conservative of those who have posted on this issue, but I am also intelligent enough to separate fact from the fiction and open minded enough to accept what is fact.

        Citizens absolutely have the right to seek honest and moral representation. It’s called voting, and if you don’t vote for honest and moral representatives, whose fault is that?

        • DaveH

          Shame on you for inferring that I meant you. Are you feeling a little guilty?
          Citizens also have the right to protest their Government. So, shame on you.

          • http://donthaveone Beberoni

            But pretty much, it seems when the liberal crowd protests something, every major news network is there blowing things out of proportion. There are 200 people rallying against the conservatives, and the news says that there were 2000 out there protesting. But when the conservatives gather, the major networks give it a quick glance, and leave it like these people are doing something wrong. Amazing how that works.

        • DaveH

          Jim,
          You live in a very black and white world don’t you?
          “open minded enough to accept what is fact.”
          In other words, if you believe it, it is fact. Such conceit.

  • http://www.personalliberty.com/personal-liberty-articles/who-gains-most-from-bubbles-and-bailouts/ scott NM

    Jim, You are so right,the supreme Court has the power to redefine the meaning the authors intended when they wrote the constitution. This is the reason we see congress and courts usurping the authority the constitution once had as sopreme law of the land and are currently living in a society where law has become abitrary. We all know interpretation decisions of the supreme court are dependant on a certain political philosophical veiew having a majority seated on the bench,this is why decesions are reversed at times.This is why F.D.R. appealed to congress to increase the number of justices from 9 to 15.The 9 justices at the time of the first New Deal unanimously declared it to be unconstitutional.He was denied the right to change the court,so he offered,under pressure, to give the older justices full benefits to retire.after several retired and I believe one death he appointed the court he wanted to get the second new deal passed.

    • Jim

      If the Supreme Court has the power to redefine the meaning the authors intended when they wrote the Constitution like you state, how can you say in the next sentence that the courts usurp the Constitution’s authority? That’s contradictory.

  • Jim

    The Bible and the Constitution are comparable in many ways. To start, they are both written by man. While some religions believe that the Bible is the word of God, it was nevertheless written by man. It, like the Constitution, is subject to interpretation; otherwise, why are there bible scholars that differ on the meaning of some passages? Why are there different versions of the Bible?

    Many Christians, Muslims, and Jews regard the Bible as inspired by God yet written fallibly by imperfect men. Many others, who identify themselves as biblical literalists, regard both the New and Old Testament as the undiluted Word of God, spoken by God and written down in its perfect form by humans. Still others hold the Biblical infallibility perspective, that the Bible is free from error in spiritual but not scientific matters. NT Wright, the Bishop of Durham in the Church of England and a leading New Testament scholar, in his book – The Last Word: Scripture and the Authority of God—Getting Beyond the Bible Wars – wrote, “Bible scholars claim that discussions about the Bible must be put into its context within church history and then into the context of contemporary culture.”

    • Larry Hill

      Jim, what profession are you or were you in?????

      • Jim

        How does that relate to this discussion? Diversion worked at the town hall meetings, and absolutely nothing got accomplished except a bunch of people showed their a*s*s*e*s.

        Please stay on the subject.

    • http://donthaveone Beberoni

      Sounds to me like you think your arms are long enough to box with God. Have at it man, Im not going to try it.

    • http://donthaveone Beberoni

      The Bible was written by men put into motion by the Holy Spirit to write down Gods words, not their own. Big difference. And why so many versions? Well, first of all, if you have a King James version, throw it away. Nobody these days talks like that, thee’s and thou’s and wherith and the like. Its not understandable by the common ear. The NIV version was made to take out the thee’s and thou’s and put them into easier to understand lingo. Then there is the message version that is more into todays modern language. The perception of the text is not changed, just the wording to put it into simpler, more understandable sentences. The original was in Aramaic, but no one reads and speaks that anymore, then it was translated into Greek and Hebrew, which show when a word in the greek might have 3 meanings, and in english we often take the wrong meaning for it, but on a whole, we english speaking people dont speak Greek, so having a Greek concordance while reading sometimes helps. But you are dead wrong if you think those words in the Bible, came from man, as did the words in the Constitution. Dead wrong.

  • Jim

    Larry, Larry, Larry,

    Please tell me where you get the BS that you subscribe to.

    Try not paying your income tax and see what the judicial system does. Many have tried not paying on the grounds that Amendment 16 is unconstitutional because it wasn’t properly ratified, and every single one lost.

    Others claimed that Amendment 16 does not permit the taxation of individual income. They lost.

    Still others have tried the argument that the dollar isn’t legal tender. They lost, too.

    To date, there hasn’t been a single case where Amendment 16 has been successfully challenged on any grounds. In the case of Crain v Commissioner in 1984, the Fifth Circuit Court responded, “We perceive no need to refute these arguments with somber reasoning and copious citation of precedent; to do so might suggest that these arguments have some colorable merit. The constitutionality of our income tax system—including the role played within that system by the Internal Revenue Service and the Tax Court—has long been established.” The court called Crain’s argument “a hodgepodge of unsupported assertions, irrelevant platitudes, and legalistic gibberish.” That is what I believe that you are espousing in this discussion.

    • Larry Hill

      Jim, Jim, Jim, I am not advocating not paying my taxes. And I pay plenty. The reason I asked for your employment is because I have you pegged as a gov. worker of some kind a teacher , a banker, or some job where nothing is produced but documents. If this hurts your feelings I am already apologizing but you talk like the many I have already had these conversations. You ask for proof of allegations but you never give any thing but opinions. I gave you sources of some of the info I have in my brain. I am going to get the court cases I referred to. This is not recent history but a few years after the amendment was pushed on the people. My point of bringing up the 16th amendment was to show that without it the federal reserve could not stand because the gov. would not have a source of income to support their stealing us blind. See my response to DaveH on 1-4-10 about 3:45. Regardless of anything that is said that is how the federal reserve works. And about 54% are non americans..

      • Jim

        It appears, Larry, that you don’t know the differences between opinion and facts. Your opinion is not a fact. The fact is that Amendment 16 has been challenged many, many times, and never has the challenger prevailed. Whether you like that or not, that is the fact and not my opinion.

        The fact is, like I stated earlier, the financial system worked very well from the time that Glass-Steagall was enacted until deregulation began under the watch of President Reagan. Look it up – that’s a fact that can’t be denied, not my opinion.

        BTW, you are wrong again. I’m not nor have I ever been engaged in any of those occupations that you guessed. The fact is that I came from the most productive industry in the economy, and that’s not an opinion, it’s a fact.

        • http://donthaveone Beberoni

          That is, it worked well when honest people were half involved in it. Now that the network that runs it is a bunch of foreigners and money hungry leeches, they steal and steal and steal, and nobody holds them accountable, and they know it. Who is watching them? Have they no peers? It appears that right now, only God Himself knows what kind of treachery they are up to. Their books need to be opened and revealed to all, so we all can see where our money is going, and to whom.

          • Paul

            Bertoni
            My Spelling is Poor as well as my Eyesight and even when I spell properly The Media has and does change the contex,spelling and the sentenaces,My e Mails ar blocked and Words Changed or Cesored as the Word Niggardly It does not mean Black ,it describes the Men who have Taken over America Poluted Corpted Vulgar and Offensive
            These men that conspired at Jykele Island are the same Men who Killed Traitor Abrham Lincoln, and J.F. and Robrt KennedyLincon did not use their Credit to Murder the South nd Kennedy was going to reasblish the UnitedStaes Bank and Desolve the Private Not Federal Reserve Banks Roosevelt another traitor Never had thew right to Conficate the Gold only 6% of the Gold beloned to the Federal Government and the rest Belonged to we Americans T
            They Have Katza all over where they take over to do their Killing they Bock and Control all the Courts and will not hear any case that will upset what they have alredy unlawfully put in place.
            There is a Probition in the U.S.and State Constitutions that prohibit the Taxing of Exports,so our anufactures would sell there products all over the World and Cheaper,And These Zionist Communist Bakers put the Federal Income tax in place so it is all taxed 60% befor,it is exported ,That is Totaly against what the Framers intended and If the 4h and %Th Amendment states You can not be a winess Against Your self and you have the Right to be private in your Houses Persons Papers and Efect, that in ity”s Self is unconstitutinal No this is all unconstitutional and These Anti American Anti God Men are useing America to fund Their Godles Communit Agenda, as has been done since the Spanish American War, the Overthrow of France, Russia Japan, Germany and now the Middle East.Our War Department Has been Eliminated and We are a Conqord Nation and Brainwased into Loaning Money we do not have to other countries and Bank Bailouts but these Bankers Collect the Interest on the new paper isued and alluwes them to redeam it in natural resorces and Lost Life only to therir Benifit

  • http://www.personalliberty.com/personal-liberty-articles/who-gains-most-from-bubbles-and-bailouts/ scott NM

    The only way the bible and the constitution are comparable is if you consider the constitution a divinely inspired document. If this is your view I do not disagree wiht your comparison. I can tell you from fact, the word of God has the power to transform lives. My life was drastically changed by the power of knowing God through his word. Whether or not a person has faith in the word of God,or in God does not change the fact that God is faithful to his word,this is an unchangable fact about God. The word of God is not flawed,mans under standing is simply limited. Our understandig of God is built precept upon precept,revelation upon revelation.God has given each man a measure of faith and it is up to the individual to nurture and grow that faith by seeking to Know God. On the reverse side we can through our free will choose to squander that faith and live contrary to God which is truly no life at all,and in this kind of existence the loneliness we fill and the void,and shallowness of life is never corrected.The Bible is not put into the context of church history,the bible is the reason the churche has a history and should be viewed in the context of Godly truths.The word of God should never be viewed in the context of contemporary culture but should define culture.The reason I can say I agree that the constitution was divinely inspired is the historical fact, that at the time the constitution was being debated a large majority of men present at the convention were devout men of faith.In fact Dr. Franklin when it was feared the opinions of the members of the convention seemed to be so opposed that they would notbe able to agree on a plan that would suit the country said”the small progress we have made, after four or five weeks close attendance and continued reasoning with each other,our different sentiments on almost every question, several of the last producing as many noes as ayes,is methinks,a melancholy proof of the imperfection of the human understanding” he went on to say”In this situation of this assembly, groping as it were in the dark to find political truth, and scarcely able to distinguish it when presented to us, how has it happened, sir,that we have not hitherto once thought of humbly applying to the Father of Light to illuminate our understandings? In the beginning of the contest with Britian, when we were sensible of danger, we had daily prayers in this room for Divine protection. Our prayers, sir, were heard; and they were Graciously answered. All of us, who were engaged in the struggle, must have observed frequent instances of a superintending providencce in our favour. To that kind Providence we owe this happy opportunity of consulting in peace on the means of establishing our future and national felicity. And have we now fogotten that powerful Friend? Or do we imagine we no longer need his assistance? I have lived,sir, a long time; and the longer I live, the more convincing proofs I see of this truth, that God governs in the affairs of men.” after he finished his speech he made a motion that prayers be made to heaven every morning before proceeding to business. The motion carried with only one member opposed!(May God bless you and yours in 2010 and beyond)

    • http://donthaveone Beberoni

      You are correct. God word should define culture, not the culture defining God. God is the same then as He is now, and always will be, perfect and infallible. Dont quite think we can say that about man, let alone the cultures running things these days.

  • DaveH

    Here’s an interesting article about the solutions some states are taking to the Federal Government’s abuse of power:
    http://www.humblelibertarian.com/2009/12/nullification-friend-of-liberty.html

  • http://www.personalliberty.com/personal-liberty-articles/who-gains-most-from-bubbles-and-bailouts/ scott NM

    Jim,as you well know interpretation and redfining are two different concepts, my statement does not contradict itself!

    • Jim

      You still don’t get it, do you? The Supreme Court is to the Constitution like God is to the Bible. In both cases, the word ‘infallibility’ rings true.

      • http://donthaveone Beberoni

        Pretty close, except God wrote the Bible, and He is never, hear me now, never ever going to change a word of it. It was perfect when He dictated it, and it is perfect now, never to change. However, the Supreme Court can go and change the Constitution anytime those justices get together and deem something needs changed. That is a fact. But God isnt going to change the Bible. It was, it is, and it always will be. When you come to understand that, you will know there is a big difference. Man can change his words and rules and regulations any time he so feels like it. God doesnt change. He is the same now as He was in the beginning and will be until the end. Take that to the bank.

        • Rod James

          Beberoni, From what I have read the bible was written by a bunch of jewish HUMANS.

  • Jim

    Gals and Guys,

    This is my final post on this blog on this subject. I have much better things to do than to continue trying to educate those who can’t be educated. I may try again sometime to help you learn and understand the differences between facts, opinions and just plain BS, but for now I give up trying.

    • DaveH

      Your facts, Your opinions. Remember Jim, whether you like it or not, we still have freedom of speech. Thank Goodness.

      • http://donthaveone Beberoni

        Until the dems get their so called fairness doctrine passed.

    • George

      Jim,

      This debate has been informative, stimulating, and exhausting……If I could offer a word of advice to consider on future posts, try being informative and persuasive without talking down to the other participants. It’s possible that you were actually correct in some of your arguments, but few will see the merits of your arguments because they’re too busy competing with you for the last word. In the end, these adversarial arguments don’t accomplish much of value if no one is able to persuade the other to consider the opposing position, or if a compromise can’t be found. In other words, try a little sugar with the vinegar next time…..

    • http://donthaveone Beberoni

      If you came with the truth, instead of just your opinions, you might get a little farther with folks Jim. Just an idea.

  • Larry Hill

    Jim, my limited resources at this time is only one case concerning income tax and that is Stanton vs Baltic Mining. I can’t remember but I think it was 1936. US district Judge James C. Fox decided in 2003 that the 16th amendment was never ratified. Philander Fox sec state 1913 lied about the ratification of the 16th amendment. JP Warburg who was from Europe JP Morgan, and Rockefeller bribed enough congressman to get it to pass. Now you will say that there is no facts of this. If it is debatable then so is all hiostory.There is no law but they have all the guns and power to enforce this non law.

    • Normal Guy

      Well Larry

      Here is a link to the actual transcripts of the Judge James Fox 2003 case Donals and Jeffery Sulivan vs USA Bush etc. take a look at page twenty-three for the out of context quote that you refer to. Theactual statement was an off the cuff remark made by the Judge.

      http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0a/Sullivan_vs_US_03-CV-39.pdf

      The quote is as follows:

      “(Fox) … I have to tell you that there are cases where a long course of history in fact does change the constitution, and I can think of one instance. I believe I’m correct on this. I think if you were to go back and try to find and review the ratification of the 16th amendment, which was the internal Revenue, Income Tax. I think if you went back and examined that carefully, you would find that a sufficient number of states never ratified that amendment. … And nonetheless, I think it’s fair to say that it is part of the constitution of the United States and I don’t think any court would ever … set it aside. Well, I’ve seen that — I’ve seen somewhere a treatise on that. And I think it was — I think I’m correct in saying that actually the ratification never really properly occurred… Yet nonetheless, I’m sure no court’s going to say that the 16th amendment permitting income is void for any reason, although I wouldn’t mind filing for a rebate myself.”

      In regard to Stanton vs Baltic mining.

      Stanton argued that the tax law was unconstitutional and void under the Fifth Amendment to the United States Constitution in that the law denied “to mining companies and their stockholders equal protection of the laws and deprive[d] them of their property without due process of law.” The Court rejected that argument.

      Stanton also argued that the Sixteenth Amendment “authorizes only an exceptional direct income tax without apportionment, to which the tax in question does not conform” and that therefore the income tax was “not within the authority of that Amendment.” The Court also rejected this argument.

      Thus, the U.S. Supreme Court, in upholding the constitutionality of the income tax under the 1913 Act, contradicts those tax protesters arguments that the income tax is unconstitutional under either the Fifth Amendment or the Sixteenth Amendment.

      It was sure nice for a change to read Jim’s well researched insightful comments. This site is pretty light on facts, just a lot of paranoids ready to hide in bunkers with guns. Funny – but tragic.

      • Larry Hill

        I stand corrected I guess I’m misinformed

  • http://www.personalliberty.com/personal-liberty-articles/who-gains-most-from-bubbles-and-bailouts/ scott NM

    Jim,one should not think more highly of ones self than one ought. your opinion means nothing other than it is your opinion.the fact that the understanding of the constitution concerning the generalwelfare clause and the interstate commerce clauce stood for about 150yrs until FDR stacked the supreme court for thr purpose of redefining these clauses to make it legal to create the welfare state.My dear jim,you sir are incapable of teaching me.however your opinions are somewhat stimulating.

  • http://learb123@sbcglobal.net Leah

    I work with the Special Ed. population in a large school district training these students job skills so they could possibly get a job and most of them tell me they do not want a job, because if they work, they will not get the check that they get from the GOVERNMENT. These people want to be taken care of and they don’t care what the GOVERNMENT does as long as they keep getting the check in the mail. This drives me crazy and it seems like it is getting worse every day. I am for all of us,(and it would take all of us) to stop paying taxes. Maybe that would get some attention. I would be the first to sign up if we would all stick together and form a masive group.

    • DaveH

      Leah,
      It wouldn’t do any good. They would just borrow the money and keep on spending.

  • shell

    we r being taken over by big brother owells 1984 is more like 2020

  • shell

    slowly we lose our purchesing power and freedoms

  • Normal Guy

    Oh and before you get all conspiracy about the Sullivan case. This was not a part of any ruling the case regarded the constitutionality of the war in Iraq. The Judge was reflecting on issues that were not in evidence and was not referring to something that he had any real knowledge of. It is a crock to suggest that this statement is proof of anything.

    Go to the link read the transcript for yourself.

  • K. deGru

    I believe the evils that have now brought us to financial ruin are cause and effect related to the Federal Reserve Banking system that was put upon us under dark of night in the early 1900′s. These folks truly control our destiny and take undeservedly from every ounce of our toil, blood, and sweat. The only man who makes sense to me today is Ron Paul who is pleading for an honest audit of the FRBS. This is something I fear that will never be done. So what is the solution to get away from the fiat currency that the FRBS forces us to use?

    • Paul Revere

      We are Gaurenteed Equal protection under the Law and If they Allow the Fed not to be Audited ,Niether can they Audit You It is the Most Anti american Anti Constitution Anti God Fruad Ever Commited in the History of the World Involving Felix Warberg Rothchild and Volker,condoned by Woodrow Wilson
      Solution File Crimanal Fruad Against all involved in seting up the private Federal reserve Bank. Siez Their Assets throuh the Ricco Act,and the Pecora 1929 Commite Investigation and File restraining orders and Injunctions Prohibiting the Payment of any and All Interst requirements unless it was loaned with Lawful Gold and Silver money
      This is Where The Fruad and Theft takes Place they Coerce Congress to pass funding ,Print the New Debit instruments and then they collect the interest which goes into the trillions.

  • http://www.personalliberty.com/personal-liberty-articles/who-gains-most-from-bubbles-and-bailouts/ smy

    The people do have the power to change or repel the constitution through a constitutional convention. This eliminates the congress,the executive,and the judiciary branches of the federal gov. from having any influence over the process. However this does not mean that certain states would not elect members of congress to represent them in a convention, but over all the states would still have more power for change.

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