Comments Subscribe to Personal Liberty News Feed Subscribe to Personal Liberty
 

Using A Tragedy

January 12, 2011 by  

Using A Tragedy

In the wake of the shooting in Tucson, Ariz., that left six people dead and 14 injured, politicians are doing what politicians do best: Using a tragedy to push their freedom-stealing agenda.

Rep. James Clyburn (D-S.C.) wants to stifle free speech, saying vitriol in public discourse spurred the shooter to act.

“The shooting is cause for the country to rethink parameters on free speech,” Clyburn is reported to have told The Post and Courier. The paper reported Clyburn wants standards put in place to guarantee balanced media coverage with a reinstatement of the (unfair) Fairness Doctrine, in addition to calling on elected officials and media pundits to use better judgment.

Pima County (Arizona) Sheriff Clarence Dupnik foolishly blames Rush Limbaugh. The liberal media tried to blame Sarah Palin, Sharron Angle and the Tea Party.

Representative Carolyn McCarthy (D-N.Y.) — who blamed the gun — is planning to introduce legislation to restrict large capacity ammunition clips in yet another attempt to restrict people’s ability to own the type of gun they want.

And liberal newspapers like The Baltimore Sun are calling for stricter gun control laws “to rein in the violence.”

All of this ignores the reality of the situation. The shooter — allegedly Jared Lee Loughner — was an unstable individual who acted out of some deluded fantasy. Media reports paint a grim picture of Loughner. He’s described by a former classmate as a Leftwing, pot head and by professors as disturbed; and his writings demonstrate that he is far removed from reality. Laws that restrict speech or firearm ownership are irrelevant to someone like that.

We can’t afford to let the elected elites and the corporate media use the actions of a lunatic to erase the 1st and 2nd Amendments.

_____________________________________________________________
UPDATE
There are now reports that the alleged shooter, Loughner, may have been obsessed with the Congresswoman and upset at her that she treated him in a way that insulted him in 2007. Reports are that a constituent letter from Giffords to Loughner was found in a safe at Loughner’s home with the words “Die Cops” and “Die Bitch” scrawled on it.

There is also the curious fact that Gifford’s YouTube channel was subscribed to two people’s YouTube channels, Loughner’s and another member of Congress’… evidence that Giffords and Loughner had some type of connection in the past. (By the way, that YouTube connection was scrubbed almost immediately after the shooting)

Bob Livingston

is an ultra-conservative American and author of The Bob Livingston Letter™, founded in 1969. Bob has devoted much of his life to research and the quest for truth on a variety of subjects. Bob specializes in health issues such as nutritional supplements and alternatives to drugs, as well as issues of privacy (both personal and financial), asset protection and the preservation of freedom.

Facebook Conversations

Join the Discussion:
View Comments to “Using A Tragedy”

Comment Policy: We encourage an open discussion with a wide range of viewpoints, even extreme ones, but we will not tolerate racism, profanity or slanderous comments toward the author(s) or comment participants. Make your case passionately, but civilly. Please don't stoop to name calling. We use filters for spam protection. If your comment does not appear, it is likely because it violates the above policy or contains links or language typical of spam. We reserve the right to remove comments at our discretion.

Is there news related to personal liberty happening in your area? Contact us at newstips@personalliberty.com

  • Bill

    As tragic as this event is,it comes as no surprise to me. The emotional climate of the country only help to bring the pot to over boiling.Consider the tension between the political parties, Democrats cramming polices down the throat of the American people,health care, same sex marriage, DADT .On the other side of the isle the Republicans became the No Party, creating political gridlock.So I think before you point fingers and hurl accusations against the other party, some consideration is in order.As unfortunate as this event is, it is in my opinion only the tip of the iceberg to what is out there. It can not stopped by limiting our freedom of speech, nor by legislating stiffer gun control.The only way this may be circumvented is by a more proactive response when somebody has been determined to be socially a mental threat to society,as well as sharing this information between necessary mental health professionals.

    • FreedomFighter

      Every play this president makes is outlined in the communist handbook under:

      How to destroy America from within.

      Make no mistake, Obama is the titular head of the forces hell bent on the transformation of America to a socialist/communist country.

      The battle for the minds of the undecided and the unaware fools/sheeple is now fully engaged. We conservatives and other loyal Americans need to block the agenda, repeal the agenda and expose the agenda of these enslavers.

      Laus Deo
      Semper Fi

      • Larry Owens

        I agree, Be Vigilant of enemies Foreign and DOMESTIC.

        • DaveH

          Mostly the latter.

          • bob wire

            I read things like this and I wondered how do they know the daily activities of the President. For much of his daily agenda is secret for security reasons.

            How do you know such things and feel qualified to openly judge their substance and effect?

            I know he has a security briefing every morning but what it’s about or the decision made, I’m not privileged to know. So how can you?

            Can you tell me? I want to know too!

          • DaveH

            Bob,
            I can’t help you with your lack of knowledge. You will have to do your own study to improve that.
            One place to start though would be Mises.org.

      • eddie47d

        Our wars have enslaved us and few truly free us(WWII may be an exception).How about rejecting wars and those sheeple who follow the fools into these wars.

        • independant thinker

          “How about rejecting wars and those sheeple who follow the fools into these wars.”

          Sounds an awful lot like you want to return to the viet nam days where solders are cursed, spit on, and worse when they return.

          • DaveH

            You’re the kind of creep who foments these problems by butting into other peoples’ life choices. I’m glad I don’t live next door to you, Flashdunce. I would have to spend entirely too much of my time making certain everything on my property was locked down.

          • DaveH

            Sorry, Independant. That was meant for Flashdunce below. Don’t know if the software screwed up, or there is just a loose nut on the keyboard this morning.

          • Kinetic1

            IT,
            All I heard was a call to reject our “leaders” dragging us into unnecessary wars. I suppose you could interpret the words “those sheeple who follow” to mean our soldiers, but I read this as a condemnation of those citizens who blindly accept the excuses for going to war.

            We’ve learned a lot since Viet Nam. I believe most Americans today are proud of our soldiers and only wish to see them safe. Sure, there have been some soldiers who have overstepped the bounds, but there always will be, but it makes matters worse when our government chooses to involve us in more than we have the man power to accommodate. You can’t send soldiers back for 3, 4, or 5 tours of duty and expect them to be ok.

          • independant thinker

            No prob Dave I read the all the post so realized it wasn’t ment for me.

          • eddie47d

            I.T.; Never said any such thing so keep on dreaming.

        • marvin

          eddie47d
          would you care to inlighten us as to what war has to do with a sick nut case doing what they do mame murder and rape ,the law shoud have been on alert this nut had been arrested numerus times ,if you want to place blame, it was not the 1st amendment it was a lack of doing their job by the sheriff and city police ,and who was the first to screem the right wing nuts caused this ,a liberal open border sheriff that said i will not do the job i swore to do

          • HFlashman

            Marvin…actually, the guy was never arrested. He had a clean arrest record which was why he was allowed to by the Glock and the 30 round add on.

            I’m not anti 2nd Amendment..but quite honestly if i lived next door to half the posters on this board, I’d be mighty worried for the safety and well being of my family knowing these folks pack armor.

          • DaveH

            Was that a Freudian slip, Flashdunce — pack “armor”. Because you know they need to protect themselves from you?

          • Dogma-Free

            Actually, Marvin…he didn’t (to quote you), “MAME, murder, and rape” (a little spell-check might help some of you folks…but I digress)…

            …he MURDERED. With a GUN.

            And no one is blaming the gun, in spite of the spin Ben and his far-right loon cohorts may try to put on this…they’re blaming the shooters.

            And who are “the shooters”?

            Answer: THE PEOPLE WITH GUNS.

            And maybe more to the point, the people with guns who seem to feel the need to carry guns around with them in public.

            And since the nutty NRA argument with Columbine and the like was that, ‘if people were allowed to carry guns with them in school, this wouldn’t have happened’…we can now see that this doesn’t hold water, since this happened in a place where all the gun-happy Arizonians *could* carry their concealed handguns, and yet…the only hero who ended up taking the murderous gunman down, WAS A WOMAN…without a gun.

            Some heroes you lot are.

            A WOMAN…no, wait…an *unarmed woman* no less…has the bravery to tackle the crazed gunman, while all whimpering blow-hard gun fanatics were hiding behind their precious little pistolas, and cowering in pant-wetting fear.

            In other words, your guns didn’t help you, and in fact…made matters worse, because no one thought anything of some guy (who isn’t a police officer) walking into a public place with a holstered handgun. Had it not been a normal occurrence for some guy to walk into a public place with a holstered handgun, security could have been on that gun-shooting maniac much quicker, or maybe even stopped him before he opened fire on all those innocent civilians.

            So…let’s talk about some stiffer gun-control laws, shall we…?

          • Dogma-Free

            Here’s an article y’all might find interesting, and one that will get Ben’s panties all in a twist, no doubt…

            http://www.fpif.org/articles/gun_crazy

          • Vicki

            Dogma-Free says:

            “…A WOMAN…no, wait…an *unarmed woman* no less…has the bravery to tackle the crazed gunman, ………. security could have been on that gun-shooting maniac much quicker, or maybe even stopped him before he opened fire on all those innocent civilians.”

            Really? If there was security as you claim why did it take an unarmed woman to take down the suspect? What was security doing? Playing in their wet pantys?

            And why were you attacking the security people (you know the ones with the pistolas) if they were really there? And why did the (phantom?) security people fail to take down the shooter so that an unarmed woman had to take the initiative and tackle the shooter? I notice she was smart too and waited for the shooter to reload. Again makes me wonder what “security” was doing.

            Dogma-Free says: “So…let’s talk about some stiffer gun-control laws, shall we…?”

            I think your logic above already shows how useful such a talk would be.

          • eddie47d

            Vickie; The shooting happened within seconds. I doubt if security or even an armed civilian could have stopped that first clip from being emptied.

          • THOMAS STEWART

            Right-On Marvin There Have Been Manny Mistakes Made By Sheriff Dip-Shit Who Sounds Like Mister McGoo And Janet Nappys His Sister, Yikeess, And They Are Guarding Our Borders?? Give The People Of Arizona A Break, Put One Person In Charge Of Security The Best And Toughest Sheriff Joe And Send The ACLU Anti-Americans Anti-Christians To Kenya With The Manchurian Pres Obama. God Bless America & LT Col Lakin & Sarah Palin POTUS Soon.

          • Vicki

            eddie47d says:
            “Vickie; The shooting happened within seconds.”

            Were you there? Do you have a video of the incident? Please share.

            “I doubt if security or even an armed civilian could have stopped that first clip from being emptied.”

            Was the shooter using a machine pistol shooting 15 rounds a second?

            Properly trained you could draw your firearm from a holster and place 2 shots in a tight group (4 inch circle) into the center of mass of the shooter in 1.5 seconds. Really fast people can do even better. Now unlike your feel good opinion of doubt I actually have some facts to back up my assertion. http://www.frontsight.com/courses/gun-training.asp
            Go ahead and tell Dr. Piazza of your doubts. He will be happy show you that armed civilians are more than able to stop a shooter like the one in Arizona.

          • eddie47d

            I’ll stand by what I said Vickie so drop your cowgirl attitude.

          • Vicki

            eddie47d says:
            “I’ll stand by what I said Vickie so drop your cowgirl attitude.”

            Only a fool would stand by a statement that has been shown to be in error.

        • Robin from Arcadia, IN

          eddie47d… I have mixed feelings about the conflicts and wars we get into. I guess it depends on the day and the mood I’m in whether I believe they are necessary or not. At this point, I think we need to bring our military home and put them on our boarders. Once that gets ‘fixed’, maybe we can fix another country’s problems…

          • Dogma-Free

            Well, maybe we don’t need to ‘fix’ another country’s problems. Maybe they can do it for themselves…you know, since they’re all adults and such.

            The catch is, war is not necessary for any of us ordinary civilians. It does not benefit us, or the people of our armed forces.

            It does, however, benefit a small number of extremely rich folks…somewhere…who then become even more rich because of it. Or maybe, they feel more secure, because the US military can be used to help secure some of their investments or holdings through the control of a foreign region…and the cost of subsequent human lives be damned.

            Now, the world wars were a little different, in that it became necessary for us to fight in them…but at the core of it all, they never should have been started in the first place, as they were the products of greed and ego.

            Then again, greed and ego have been two of the most prominent trademarks of mankind since its inception.

          • DaveH

            Dogma,
            Why was it necessary for us to fight in the World Wars?

          • eddie47d

            Big egos and phony treaties started WWI.

    • DaveH

      The party of No? Come on Bill. Would you rather that they had gone along with more robbery of the taxpayer?
      If somebody says “give me your wallet”, you aren’t going to say “no”?

      • Kinetic1

        DaveH,
        If Republicans in the House and Senate vote no on legitimate grounds, that’s fine, but that is not what they are doing. House Republicans defeated a bill passed unanimously by the Senate that would oppose child marriage. They supported the idea of a bipartisan fiscal commission, but when President Obama endorsed it, 6 Republican co-sponsors, Sam Brownback, Mike Crapo, John Ensign, Kay Bailey Hutchison, James Inhofe, and John McCain changed their minds. Despite supporting PAYGO legislation to reduce the deficit, John McCain, George Voinovich, Susan Collins, and Olympia Snowe all turned tale and voted against it when it came up for a vote.

        Time and time again the Republicans have chosen party over people and voted against policies they once supported (or even wrote) in an effort to weaken the President. How do you justify voting against a bill to condemn the forced marriages of 11 and 12 year old girls? Do Republicans support the freedom of middle aged men to buy child brides? And how can “fiscally responsible” Republicans reject PAYGO? Bottom line, they were burned when President Clinton co-opted some of their legislation and now they would rather weaken our nation than allow another Democrat to succeed.

        • ValDM

          You do realize, don’t you that we already have laws on the books about marriage/age. This didn’t need to be addressed by fed legislators, but by the states. Why don’t you mention the REAL fact about why this particular bill was defeated? Did it maybe contain a bunch of PORK? Was it, in fact, another of those bills that “must be passed so we can see what’s in it”? Get some REAL facts before you try to convince anyone that you know what you’re talking about.

          • Kinetic1

            ValDM,
            Are you pointing out facts about the bill that I missed? No, you’re just reacting without any research. If you had bothered to do any background work you’d know that the bill is a response to underage marriage in OTHER countries where we provide aid. There was no “pork” involved. In fact, the bill was crafted to make the best and most fiscally responsible use of resources already in place. It was simply an effort to curb a practice that most civilized people find reprehensible. An effort to save thousands of defenseless girls from a life of de-facto slavery. An effort to help curb the spread of AIDS. Yep, the Republicans showed the Libs! Big win for the “Christians” wouldn’t you say? And what about the other bills? Why did the co-sponsors listed change their vote? Could it have had something to do with a call from the leadership to close ranks against the Democrats?

            From now on, before you counter based on the assumption that I (or anyone else for that matter) don’t know what I’m talking about, you’d better make certain that you have a clue.

          • ValDM

            Well, I guess you got me told. I thought we were talikng about bills having to do with OUR country. If the bill didn’t have anything to do with OUR country, then it shouldn’t have anything to do with OUR congress. We’re not in the business to be the world’s legislators (but you would think so with our congress so over poweringly interested in anywhere but here). Be that as it may, WE do not have any say-so in how another country conducts its business, unless it affects OUR business. I don’t care what OTHER countries are doing, so long as it DOESN’T get brought here. I DON’T live in those other countries, so WHY would my elected officials be concerned about enacting a law that does not affect their own CITIZENS?

          • eddie47d

            Kinetic; It’s hard to get most states to do anything. The Feds always have to step up to the plate to get anything done.

        • DaveH

          Dictating the terms of marriage is NOT one of the Federal Government’s Constitutional powers, Kinetic.
          I know, it falls under the “interstate commerce” clause because the newlyweds will be buying things. For those that didn’t catch on, the previous sentence was sarcasm.

          • HFlashman

            There you have it folks. DaveH is a supporter of Gay Marriage. You’re coming around Dave….you’ll see the Light soon.

          • libertytrain

            Flashman you are so high school.

          • HFlashman

            Libery…is that not what DaveH said? “Dictating the terms of marriage is NOT one of the Federal Government’s Constitutional powers,”

          • DaveH

            Actually, Flashdunce, if you bothered to read my posts, you would know that I am Libertarian. No secret there. We believe in Freedom, no matter how repulsive it might sometimes be. And we don’t think it’s anybody’s business who freely partners up. We also don’t think the Government has any business in those free contracts. So, for instance, we don’t think the Government has a role in forcing unwilling ministers to marry people. You get it, Flashdunce? Freedom.
            And Flashdunce, to come around to your way of thinking would be to abandon my morality and my principles of Freedom. It isn’t going to happen. So just keep hoping and dreaming.

          • libertytrain

            Flash the high school freshman – I’ve read enough of Dave this last year or so to understand how he values freedom as I believe he so eloquently just reiterated to you.

      • Bill

        Dave,

        You are wrong, I would say no and not give it to them. If it means dying for my refusal, then so be it. I would rather die for refusing to cave into some jackass, than live the rest of my life having to live the rest of my life with the regret and anger for being spineless.

        • DaveH

          What? I was using that as an example in defense of the Republicans saying “NO”!

    • Vic

      Bill, there’s no such thing as half-freedom or “regulated freedom”. Freedom either exists or not.

      OTOH, there are things that cannot be prevented. Sh*t happens, that’s it.

      • kate8

        Why is no one mentioning the inflence of Hollywood on our kids? Becaue the violence and propaganda coming from there has a far greater impact than any political speech could, which I doubt he ever heard, anyway.

        • Vicki

          Possibly on another list or thread I noticed the hypocrisy of the liberal who tells us that Videogame/Film/TV violence has no effect on people so is ok and then tell us that CONSERVATIVE political speech drives people to do horrible violence.

          We probably should bring up that more often with these liberals.

          inetersting that liberal leaning demonstrations and protests seem to have more violent encounters.
          http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lqwurTqX4pA

          • Vicki

            Someone asked below about which liberals were defending free speech/press in movies and video games (the violence) and I was unable to easily find a cite so I will withdraw the assertion that they are being hypocritical. They are of course busy trying to restrict free POLITICAL speech due to the incident in Arizona.

          • kate8

            Vicki – It’s perfectly okay to have an opinion based on your own perceptions. We don’t always need to have a link to someone else’s assertions to back us up. Some things are just obvious.

          • Vicki

            kate8 says:
            “Vicki – It’s perfectly okay to have an opinion based on your own perceptions. ”

            I realize that however our opinions are much stronger in the minds of the readers if we have reasons for our beliefs and facts for our assertions.
            And I get to learn new things by going out and finding those facts and or reasons :)

      • bob wire

        “Bill, there’s no such thing as half-freedom or “regulated freedom”. Freedom either exists or not.

        OTOH, there are things that cannot be prevented. Sh*t happens, that’s it.”

        well perhaps a noble thought, those ideas of freedom are not a reality or the case, today or yesterday.

        The only place you might enjoy such freedoms as you suggest is to be a hermit, hide out in the Appalachian Mountains somewhere making moonshine and courting your sister or marooned on a small tropical island in the Pacific with monkey breath.

        There is no, has never been “absolutes” or ‘purities” that’s ever endured the test of time, not in this world.

        Freedom is a perception and comes in degrees. That you and I enjoy many freedoms fails to make us completely free.

        The truth is, I know few people that would enjoy such freedom.

        and yes, $hit happens and it happens a lot when we expose ourselves or entertain undisciplined thoughts and behavior.

    • http://www.boblivingstonletter.com/ Bob Livingston

      All,

      See my update above. And don’t be so quick to ascribe normal motives to a possibly deranged individual.

      Yours for the truth,
      Bob

      • kate8

        Bob – Perhaps. But how do we know what is truth and what is deflecting the truth?

        I recall, soon after the incident, the police reported that they were looking for a second person, a “handler”. Seems he had one, and it seems that he has disappeared. Hmmmm.

        We don’t know if he acted alone or if he was planted as a loose cannon. I’m sorry, but those in power have a whole bagful of tricks and a whole army of operatives, both willing and unwitting. And they have been set up in position, complete with history and scenario.

        If a story sounds a bit too pat, too mundane, it probably is.

  • Angel Wannabe

    I’ll repeat what I said yesterday on another thread here. The liberals Hijacked the tragic deaths of 6 people in Tuscon, to further their agenda._They’re preparing a case for re-election in 2012 and using this tragedy, like “Never let a Good Crisis go to waste”. Again I’ll ask, what the hell is a new stricter gun control going to do, to stop mentally ill criminals from a mass murder?__The answer is_NOTHING!_The insane or the criminals doesn’t play by the rules, and couldn’t give a rats a$$ about a new law, if they want a gun, nine chances out of 10 they get them illegally anyway!_The only people that will be penalized with more regulation, are the Law abiding citizens.
    “WE The People” are the ones who will suffer for it!
    Even if a person is mentally ill, until they “do something” to harm another individual, NOTHING can be done about them. They are a sad and scary part of society. It takes forever to prove a person is unfit in society, unless they physically do something to cause physical harm to an individual or society. This is the only gray area I’ll elude too.

    • JiimCO

      Must be a plot to paint these obviuosly liberal type people as right wing gun nuts … oh the devious plots of these people!

      -Just days after the election, Keith Luke, a twenty-two year old Massachusetts white supremacist, went and killed two blacks at random, wounding six and, raping four black women, including a pregnant woman.

      -Jim D. Atkinson walked into a Tennessee church that supported same-sex marriage and killed two people. In his four page letter he admitted that he hated “liberals and their policies” and he hated “blacks, gays, and anyone different from him”. In his small home Atkinson had books by Hannity, Coulter, and O’Reilly where the views of liberals a vilified.

      -Dr. George Tiller was murdered in cold blood by right-wing abortion activists last month.

      -Two months ago, Richard Poplawski, gunned down three Pittsburgh police officers believing nonsensically that Obama was going to take away his guns, a view propagated by Michael Savage and Rush Limbaugh.

      -A few days ago white supremacist James Von Brunn, walked into the U.S. Holocaust Museum and killed a black security guard and injured another. Brunn claimed, as is very common among white supremacists, that the holocaust never happened. On his website he also made clear his hate for the Obama presidency.

      • Angel Wannabe

        Frothing a Liberal agenda for popularity gains in 2012, nothing more! :)

      • JKO

        The point is that in all cases – right or left wing – laws that already exist are being broken. Those same laws would have been broken had we added 100 new laws. We don’t need to make more laws!!! We need to enforce the laws we have.

        In AZ now we can carry a weapon on our person. Wonder how many would have died had several people been doing this on the day of this tragedy?

        • skip

          In point of fact, one of the tacklers of the shooter was carrying a gun. But a 33 bullet magazine was already emptied into 20 souls by the time anyone could tackle or shoot. Can any sane person tell me why anyone in this nation requires a sidearm with 33 bullets and two or three reloads? There is only one category of potential targets – not geese, not antelope, but fellow humans. Why!? Are we so degenerate as a nation that we will devolve to solving all problems with a Glock 19? We are goners as a civilization if this mentality persists an pervades. Hunting animals is perhaps OK; hunting fellow humans is not acceptable.

          • DaveH

            You obviously don’t know much about shooting, skip. When young, I had a single-shot shotgun which I could reload in less than 2 seconds. With a pocket full of shotshells, I could get off 5 rounds in about 10 seconds (accurately).
            There are people out there much faster than I was. Here’s one (yeah, I know it isn’t a shotgun):
            http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iS9uGktUCrY

            My point is that, if somebody wants to create mayhem, there’s not a whole lot we can do about it. The best we can do is to have a political system that isn’t a zero-sum game, like Socialism is (that is, for every winner there must be a loser).
            With Freedom and Free Markets, anybody who wants to put in the effort can be successful. Only those, who stubbornly refuse to make any effort, would suffer. With that kind of Freedom would come a much more prosperous and happy society, thus less angry nutcases.
            Vote Libertarian, For Individual Freedom, Personal Responsibility, Free Markets, and Limited Government.

          • DaveH
          • HFlashman

            “When young, I had a single-shot shotgun which I could reload in less than 2 seconds. With a pocket full of shotshells, I could get off 5 rounds in about 10 seconds (accurately).” <— Dave H

            When I was young, I had to walk to school five miles, barefoot, knee deep snow, uphill both ways. Which is more believable than your tall tale.

          • DaveH

            You’re showing your ignorance, Flashdunce. I provided a video which shows just how fast a practiced shooter could shoot. Did you not watch it?
            And please, don’t project your lack of veracity onto me.

          • HFlashman

            I commented on your claim when you were young. Nothing else.

          • DaveH

            And for those who still aren’t convinced that a 30-round magazine wouldn’t be necessary for mayhem:
            http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XXVNypPUGto

        • Angel Wannabe

          Skip, adding more regulation and eventually rendering law abiding citizens powerless to defend themselves isn’t the answer either. The more rope you give Government, the more they hang us with it, remember that!_If we allow more gun regulation, eventually the law abiding will only be left with an empty barrel. Powerless is where they want us. God gave us the rights to bear arms and Government wants to play God and take them away.

          • DaveH
          • Angel Wannabe

            Thanks for the link DaveH, I saved it to desktop! :)

          • http://marcum@wildblue.net coal miner

            HFlashman,

            “When I was young, I had to walk to school five miles, barefoot, knee deep snow, uphill both ways”.

            You and me both.

        • Kinetic1

          JKO,
          My guess, several more. The man had a semi auto Glock with 30 ROUND CLIPS! Let’s be conservative and say that a mad man looking to hit a target and anyone around it could unload those 30 rounds in about 10 seconds. By the time anyone could react he had already done the damage. Now lets add 3 or 4 citizen shooters to the mix. They hear shots fired, turn in the direction they think the shots came from and what? They fire on the first person they see holding a gun? Maybe they pick the right target and take him out, but just as likely in a panicked crowd they get bumped or miss due to inexperience in these situations.

          This isn’t Hollywood folks. Regular, untrained citizens in a crowd can not be depended on to do the work of trained police officers. Arizona may once have been in the heart of the “old west”, but those days are past. Then again, the Laws of Tombstone back in 1880s were more strict then Arizona’s current laws, so maybe they should learn a lesson here.

          • DaveH

            The only lesson I’ve learned here is that you are Dreaming. So where were those trained officers? Who brought down the suspect? How many trained officers will we have to hire to protect us from madmen?
            The answer is that we can’t afford it. And if we could, how do we guarantee that those trained officers don’t become the madmen? We can’t. Shite happens.
            By the way, the Distict of Columbia has by far the highest murder rate in the country and up to the recent Supreme Court decision they had the strictest gun-control in the country. How do you explain that, Liberal?
            Some reality. Note that Arizona’s murder rate has actually been declining in recent years, yet their gun-control laws were very loose compared to most other states:
            http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/murder-rates-nationally-and-state

          • Dan

            Kinetic1, you realy need to get a grip on reality!

        • kate8

          How about that sheriff in Pima county (the one on the blame the Right bandwagon) who said he would NOT enforce any laws against illegal immigration, even if Arizona’s new law was upheld by the courts.

          Does that mean that we can all just ignore laws we don’t like? Not only that, but he slammed Sheriff Arpaio for enforcing the law!

          I would think that if law enforcement can selectively enforce laws, we can, too. The libs just seem to want it both ways.

      • marvin

        JiimCO
        and your point being that their are no nuts on the left, this has been going on befor we were a nation and will go on as long as we are a nation, mentel illiness has no color or political backing it is a part of world history, mad people have and will do what mad men do,, kill mame and rape ,, you remimber idi amin that would kill his people put them in his freezer and cook and eat the long pigs what about hitler and hussein, as joe friday said on dragnet facts mam just the facts

        • JiimCO

          Of course there are left wing nuts, anyone growing up in the 60′s would remember the various groups bombing, robbing banks and advocating the downfall of the government. We freely admit that they were wackos … it is this writer and many others that can’t admit that just maybe there are loonies on the right that hear the Palin’s, Beck’s and Limbaugh’s preach about lock and load and actually take the next step.

          • DaveH

            Did you even read Bob Livingston’s article, JiimCO? It doesn’t appear that way to me. Do you know the difference between defensive and offensive?
            Bob was refuting the efforts by the Liberal Media to pin the shootings on the Conservatives. I didn’t see anywhere in his article where he was blaming the Liberals for the shootings.
            Putting words in peoples’ mouths seems to me to be a common Liberal tactic.

          • Bill

            JimCO,

            What about Barry saying last year “we are going to hit them hard”, “If they bring a knife to the fight, we will bring a gun” Do those phrases ring a bell? Made by the alleged POTUS.

      • ValDM

        JimCO,
        You forgot to mention the jihadist from Fort Hood. But of course you would. There are loonies everywhere (both sides of the aisle). The point of the article is that the liberal media and liberals in general have taken a tragedy and USED that tragedy for their own GAIN.

        • JiimCO

          Well heaven forbid that a political party would use a tragedy to their advantage … there was a time that a republican could not get in front of a mike without invoking 9/11to push whatever agenda. What kind of country would this be today had Bush been allowed to spy on, arrest without any recourse, then rendition his own citizens?Oh wait, he already did … and you’re all worried about Obama ignoring our Constitution?

          • ValDM

            Yes, heaven forbid. NO ONE should make a profit (any kind of profit) off of death and tragedy.

          • DaveH

            Here we go with the 911 thing again. Look up the roll call votes on the Patriot Act, JiimCO. In the Senate only one Democrat voted against the Bill. In the House, Democrats did better, but still only 30% of Democrats in the House voted against the Bill.

        • Kinetic1

          ValDM,
          Calling for a ban on 30 round magazines is not about a “Democratic agenda”, it’s about common sense. Hand guns are meant for target shooting, self defense and murder. You don’t need 30 loaded rounds to shoot a target and you’re unlikely to need 30 loaded rounds to defend yourself (if there are that many people coming after you, you have bigger problems to consider.) That leaves nuts like this guy who want to kill and wound as many people as he can. So why do we need these extended clips?

          • DaveH

            Good Grief, Kinetic. Have you ever seen how fast a skilled shooter can replace a clip? Banning high round clips would accomplish nothing. In fact, it would make the weapon much more concealable if the shooter didn’t have 4 extra inches of clip protruding from the butt of the gun.

          • ValDM

            I see you missed my point. The left got right with the program in the blame game (see Sheriff Dimwit’s comments of the same day). Then we get all the MSM talking heads doing the same blame game. I wasn’t talking about guns, I was talking about the Left’s propensity to jump on ANY opportunity/tragedy/death to spin it to look like they’re on anyone’s side but THEIR OWN. They put the spin out before the smoke had cleared. In that fashion, they PROFITED.

          • libertytrain

            ValDM and before the poor dead folks were cold and the wounded were taken to the hospital.

          • Bill

            Kinetic1,

            He doesn’t need the extended clip, but it is his right to have one. Congress doesn’t need to infringe on our second amendment rights by trying to legislate gun control.Guns do not kill, mentally unstable minds do!

          • steve

            why do we need cars that go 120 or faster? when most of the posted speeds are at most 70, I will tell you why because that’s what the people want! and because this is the USA, NOT NORTH KOREA, OR CHINA, OR ENGLAND, IT’S CALLED FREEDOM TO CHOOSE,

          • DaveH

            Good point Steve, but wasted on Liberals. They know nothing of freedom of choice unless it’s about an unborn child.

          • Will-CA

            That’s the problem the total lack of common sense! I know this sounds horrible but just maybe we’re lucky this wacko only used a handgun. What if he used that old Chevy pickup as a weapon and driven it through the crowd murdering and maiming many more people. This is an age old argument that shouldn’t be. A weapon is an object and is not inherently evil it’s the person and or intent of the use of that object that may be Judged.
            I pity those of you that can’t see this.
            Disarming good and free people only leads to more death and suffering.

          • Vicki

            DaveH writes:
            “Good point Steve, but wasted on Liberals. They know nothing of freedom of choice unless it’s about an unborn child.”

            They don’t even honor freedom of choice there. They never asked the CHILD.

      • DaveH

        Let’s see. Use Jimmco’s logic and tell me what conclusion you come to here:
        New Orleans is the murder capital of the US.
        There were 179 murders in New Orleans in 2009.
        New Orleans population is about 300,000 people, with about 60% of the population being Black.

      • Kim

        JimCO, nut cases are nut cases, no matter the color, creed, religion, or political affiliation. Just because I listen to O’Reilly, or Limbaugh, or Beck, does not automatically make me a redneck, KKK member, skinhead, or any other of a plethora of radical groups. Get real. However, I am armed at all times, legally, and will put a hole in anyone who tries to forcefully take my weapon, do me or mine harm, or do grave damage to anyone where I witness it. Without guns we will all be victims…

    • HFlashman

      So much for hope that the Tuscon shooting tragedy would be a slap across the face and wake some people up. on Sunday, yes…less than 24 hours afte the shooting occurred, the Tea party sent out a fundraisgin email using the shooting as the reason for more donations.

      There’s a call from all quarters from the Conservative Moderate to the Liberal side of the political spectrum for civility and to return from the abyss of the ranting, screaming, violent and hate supported speech practiced by the extreme right. America is saying ‘tone it done some’..and like children who are probems at home, you pout and slam doors and yell louder in confrontation.

      The wacked Right is now saying the shooter was a leftist. OK…what’s the source for that claim? Because some ‘friend’ described him as a ‘pot smoking leftist’. That’s it..that is the sole ‘proof’ for the claim. Mind you, by all accounts the guy was a loner and had no friends. Yet someone says they were ‘friends’…and describes him. Errr….how many ‘friends’ would smack talk about a “friend” and claim they hung with him with that kind of mindset/ Nobody normal if my fair guess…yet such is the “proof’ used to attempt to legitimize the cries and yells for continued social misbehavior of fear, hate, and violent insinuations.

      So what has your actions wrought? you feel isolated, penned in, under attack and denigrated from all sides. you’re viewed as extremist lunatics who are edging towards being socially inept, cast aside as not having ideas or solutions worthy of merit or consideration, and looked upon as a group of lunatics who are being eyed as becoming dangerous to health and safety. You got what you have been asking for from your behavior and speech.

      Thnk about the following. You have dengrated, warned about, threatened, and in almost every case called for the outlawing of Islam…because of some criminal thugs and a mobster organization.

      Now you are being seen, viewed, thought of and calls to be acted against as you have called for similar type actions against Muslims as a whole. You are being treated as you want to treat others. Because that is what your behavior dictates.

      Feeling proud?

      • Bruce D.

        You sound like “a pot smoking leftest” also Flashman.

        • HFlashman

          You’re told the facts and true state of affairs and, like a problem child throwing a tantrum….you toss back the insult. Bruce, even a problem teenager has more common sense that you display.

          • survivor

            I have heard far more violent and hateful speech coming out of the left than the right. Get real, when Bush was in office the left was driving around with “Kill Bush” bumper stickers, making movies about killing Bush and putting out art glorifying killing Bush. Now when someone dares to question liberal policies the “hate speech” accusations are made?

            BTW – what is your “proof” he was right wing? You demand proof that he was left wing, but immediately counter with him being right. I don’t know of any conservatives reading the Communist Manifesto or Mein Kampf. While there has been no substantial evidence submitted to support where he truly lies, on the surface things point to the left.

          • HFlashman

            Survivor..I never have stated he was Right or Left…I stated several times he was a raving lunatic. If you think that means i’m saying he was Right wing extremist, that’s your definition of what a Right wing extremist is…

            There’s no ‘on the surface’ saying he was anything..unless you want to give redence to someone saying they were ‘friends’ with a loner who had no friends or social life. (I’d say it was to get their name in the paper…or a sympathizer of the extreme Right trying to plant a label).

            Finally…I highly doubt you saw any bumper stickers saying ‘kill Bush’ etc…for those will get you a visit from the Secret Service and likely a court appearance. Quit lyin’ …

          • http://www.personalliberty.com Angel

            Hflashman has his beliefs and does his best to present them here. We can agree with him or not. But he has never posted anything remotely violent – not even in humor – so I think that is an unfair accusation.

            True conservatives can win the debate of ideas if we toss off the garbage name-calling rhetoric and also free ourselves of the agenda imposed on us by the billionaires who control the Republican party and use it for THEIR will.

            A lot of people say WE THE PEOPLE here. I believe that. But is it not WE THE SHEEP: I refuse to embrace someone because of the (R) by their name and I refuse to demonize someone because of the (D) by their name. And I refuse to do these things DESPITE the actions (perceived or otherwise) of people I oppose politically.

            Hflashman has his ideas of policy, we have ours. If we win the debate on ideas, we can win the elections too.

          • HFlashman

            Andrew. Well stated. Reasoned debates with realistic solutions and questions will almost always come out with the better solution or compromise. I’m never afraid of debating my philosophy, reasoning, and offered solutions in a reasoned style. Your call for reasoned thought and thinking is well taken and hopefully will be followed.

          • DaveH

            Like a problem child throwing a tantrum?
            You are indeed oblivious, aren’t you Flashdunce?
            From sweet, innocent Flashdunce’s previous comment:
            “return from the abyss of the ranting, screaming, violent and hate supported speech practiced by the extreme right.”
            “The wacked Right is now saying the shooter was a leftist”
            “you’re viewed as extremist lunatics who are edging towards being socially inept, cast aside as not having ideas or solutions worthy of merit or consideration, and looked upon as a group of lunatics”

            Good grief, see a shrink, Flashdunce.

          • HFlashman

            Dave..which statement do you disagree with?

          • DaveH

            What’s to agree or disagree with, Flashdunce? I was merely pointing out your hypocrisy.

      • marvin

        HFlashman
        thank you flashless people like you make me proud to be a tea party conseritive republican that see the word thru clear eyes and ears not the rose colored glass view you have that with out any facts to back you up this country was and is a republic ruled by the people not goverment we have laws that are not enforced by your goverment that has put us on a path to distruction,where gays and illegals have more rights then i do a goverment that steal money form the ones that earned and give it to ones did not,take my rights as a citizen and give to one that is not and have no rights,so i am an extremist so be i am in good company washington hamelton rever henry lincoln reagan

      • Bill

        HFlashman,

        Yea, damn proud!

        • HFlashman

          Marvin and Bill;

          If you want to be minimalized and perceived and considered as a member of an extremist fringe group and being a person who is a few fries short of a Big Mac deal…such is your right.

          • JeffH

            HFlash…Alinsky would be proud of you as would Karl.

      • Bill

        and your point is????

    • http://senseisbossler@hotmail.com Steve B

      Agreed Angel…..Every tree gets some bad fruit on it. Imagine what would happen if we cut every tree down when that happens!
      Every time some wacko does something fatal with a gun the liberals start hollaring “gun control!” If they had their way every mouth that doesn’t spit out words that they consider “politically correct” would have an unremovable cork jammed into it. Then, the only thing we would hear is what “they” want to say.
      Guns are made for “protection”….a last resort when words fail….and when liberty is taken away. The revolutionists fought a war “because they had to!” They had guns “because they had to!” They had a constitution “because they had to!” And we must too….otherwise there will never be peace….or liberty….or safety.

      • Angel Wannabe

        Well said Steve B! :)

      • marvin

        Steve B
        to they that want gun control, i say move to mexico, they have it and only now the crooks have all the guns, to me gun control is take a firm grip and aim and hit what you are shooting at the only good reason to point a gun at any thing is for food or protection or practice

    • Angel Wannabe

      In response to Bob Livingston’s update to this article, I had heard this info today on Rush Limbaugh (yeah, all together now LIBBIES, say YAY! :)

      In my opinion, he was obsessed with the Congresswoman. Scrawling “Die Bitch” on a paper suggests the shooting was inevitable & premeditated.

      • Angel Wannabe

        I wonder what EXCUSE the Liberal News Media will cook up now for this tragedy?

  • wally

    Obama on ACORN supporters: “I don’t want to quell anger. I think people are right to be angry! I’m angry!”
    Obama to supporters: “Hit Back…… Twice As Hard”
    Obama: “They Bring a Knife…We Bring a Gun.”
    Obama to His Followers: “Get in Their Faces!”
    Obama on the private sector: “We talk to these folks… so I know whose ##### to kick.“
    Obama to voters: Republican victory would mean “hand to hand combat”
    Obama to liberal supporters: “It’s time to fight for it.”
    Obama to Latino supporters: “Punish your enemies.”
    Obama to Democrats: “I’m itching for a fight.”

    • Lastmanstanding

      Wally, only problem is that the big wuss will be in hiding protected by our tax dollars (Probably in hawaii) while everything that he and the left are calling for takes place.

    • Bruce D.

      What is really bizarre is that he ran as someone who intended to unite the people. So far he is has done nothing but divide with the purpose of controlling.

      • DaveH

        Good point, Bruce.

      • Bill

        Its harder to bring socialism on a united people.besides he might bag a few crackers this way! Any one think with the congress about to start on his Obama care bill and all that this American Want to be just sacrificed some people who were not that close to him, John M. Roll, helped break the one gun bill, Obama wants total European gun laws here. The Rep. Gabrielle Giffords did not vote as Obammer would have it, it is noted that Jared Lee Loughner had other government connections where he bloged, this could be put out to whip around attention and actions just as congress is about to start to help our want to be olive office holder. Look what he has sacrificed so far, it is not that much father to think he would do such to achieve his down fall of America, hell don’t sound any more insaine then there attacks on the tea party or Sarah Palin, personalty I think this sounds a lot more like what they would do!

    • billb

      the liberals just cant fathom that it was one of their own creations that did the killing they should be proud of their prodical son — the sad part is there are more radical liberals out there doing hate crimes all the time and hiding behind the state run media as just poor underpivileged citizens.

      • dstk

        not true!

    • kate8

      The whole thing seems to be that the Left can say whatever they want and it’s okay. It’s only the Right that needs to be silenced.

  • BETTY

    It’s not about liberals or conservatives, it’s about the whole system being rotten and corrupt no matter what the party. The US is and has been for many years, ruled by a bunch of very powerful rich elites who rule not only the US but the entire world in one way or the other. So, just put the blame where it belong and stop trying to single out Obama or Democrats or Republicans, they are all in the same bed, Why can’t you seem to get that through your head? or is it that you just don’t want to face that reality because it just might make you have to re-assess yourself and your long held smug and misguided values instilled in you by the very people of whom you speak against.

    • Michael J.

      Betty, We are all well aware of the fact that high ranking Democrats and Republicans sit side by side at Bilderberg meetings to receive their marching orders from the grand wizard.

      The point here is that the shooter was not coherced by right wing commentators and political pundants, but instead is a left wing zealot who is of the lefts making.

      The well worn cliche comes to mind here that “it’s easy to see what the left is up to, just see what they are accusing the right of”.

      • James

        Michael, I wouldn’t classify Jared Loughner as ‘right’ or ‘left.’ From what I’ve read he’s an emotionally disturbed person, who targeted Rep. Giffords because she was admired and successful, while he was rejected by everyone who knew him and fired from almost every job he had. A high school teacher said his almost daily high-pitched shrieking, running around the classroom clutching his crotch, gave her visions of the Columbine massacre and made the hair on the back her neck stand up. ‘Right’ means insisting that Congress stay within its constitutional boundaries, while ‘left’ means abandoning the consitution and becoming evermore socialistic – government control.

        • DaveH

          No, James, both left-wingers and right-wingers (at least those in leadership positions) want bigger government. They just have different agendas. The left-wingers’ hearts bleed with other peoples’ money, and the right-wingers want to save everybody from themselves. Both agendas require the force of Big Government and neither obey the Constitution.
          While the right-wingers are much more palatable to me, given that I am a hard-working, healthfood nut who is unaffected by the efforts of the right-wingers to save me from myself, they are still nevertheless contemptuous of the freedom of the citizens.
          Also, one has to wonder if the Leaders on either side really believe what they say, or if they are just taking advantage of the ignorant voters to further their wealth and power. It is common for people to seek more, especially those personality types that gravitate to positions of power.

      • kate8

        Betty – What Michael J. says is true. We are aware that Right/Left is one monster at the top.

        But the Right/Left paradigm is being used by them to divide and inflame the masses. And among the masses, the Left is the vehicle this monstrous agenda is working in and from.

        Further, events like these are scheduled when necessary to clamp down on those who are considering the voice of the people. Haven’t you noticed that they happen when most needed to further limit freedoms and silence the people’s voices?

        Read about the game plan. It’s all in black and white, for all who want to know just what’s taking place. Spelled out in great detail.

        And yet we choose to believe in random acts. Not that they don’t exist. But acts like these are a result of intense indoctrination, and they seem to be strategically placed to further an agenda.

        http://www.eutimes.net/2011/01/top-us-federal-judge-assassinated-after-threat-to-obama-agenda/

        • DaveH

          Thanks, Kate. It is interesting that not much was mentioned in the news about the judge.

          • DaveH

            Funny that we have to go to the European news to get the real scoop.

          • HFlashman

            Yeah…like the EU Times is a good reliable source . Might as well use the Weekly World News as well.

            http://weeklyworldnews.com/headlines/26535/alien-spaceships-to-attack-earth-in-2011/

          • DaveH

            Maybe, Maybe not, Flashdunce, but one thing’s for sure — you have absolutely no credibility.

          • DaveH

            And Flashdunce, do you have any references to dispute that a federal judge was shot?
            All I saw in your comment was a diversionary tactic of ridicule.

        • JeffH

          kate8, Thanks. As we see more and more coincidental “disasters”, I am just amazed at the relationships of these disasters to a particular agenda and how they seem to affect freedom and current political issues. I’m just sayin’…

          • HFlashman

            LOL….and now we’re seeing the beginnings of another “hit list’ like was made up for Clinton. LOL

          • Vicki

            The problem with paranoia is that it is not proof you are safe.

        • Karolyn

          OMG, Kate. They’ve interviewed classmates, teachers, whoever they could find. The facts are that this guy was NUTS! I’ve seen what he wrote. A mind like that does not need any help to end up perpetrating violent acts. If you have never lived with someone who is mentally ill, you will never understand what they are like. Why this constant blaming, blaming, blaming? why is EVERYTHING a conspiracy? The longer I continue to read on this site, the more paranoia I am seeing. I do understand where it comes from, and there are numerous possibilities that there are conspioracies; however, not everything that happens is a government related conspiracy.

          • Michael J.

            Karolyn,
            You said: “If you have never lived with someone who is mentally ill, you will never understand what they are like”.

            Gosh Karolyn, guess I never contemplated the horrors of you living with you.

          • Karolyn

            Gee! Aren’t you just the cute little 5 year old!

          • kate8

            Karolyn – I understand what it is to deal with the mentally ill more than you can ever know.

            I alson know the the mentally ill are the most easily influenced, especially if they are prone to delusions of grandeur. They make the perfect patsys.

            I just don’t believe he acted on his own. Not impossible, but just because of the nature of the situation, I’m willing to bet that he had someone behind him.

          • Michael J.

            Kate8,
            Ever see the movie, The Manchurian Candidate?

    • Bill

      Betty,

      Get a clue. Stop trying to enable Barry, he was the one that shoved the health care bill,DADT, and possibly same sex marriage down the American peoples throat.If this pattern of ignoring the voters choice and passing legislation, without reading it, continues I expect that there will be masses carrying their pitchforks, standing at the gates to the white house – demanding Barry’s head.

  • Richard

    Apparently Obama can’t be stopped. He does whatever he pleases with little or no resistance from Congress. We definitely have our own Hugo Chavez living at 1600 Pennsylvania Ave. We are doomed if Congress doesn’t get the courage to resist this tyrant called Obama.

    • Michael J.

      Richard,

      Agreed… “For Obama, the will of Congress is a mere speed bump”.
      Charles Krauthammer

    • James

      Richard, some states are considering withdrawing from the union, which amounts to a declaration of independence, Texas is one.

      • HFlashman

        James…actually, it would be accurate to say some extremists want to secede from the union…a small minority of people. So it needs to be asked….how can they be viewed as ‘patriots” or considered as Americans when they want to dissolve the union?

        • http://gunner689 gunner689

          Our loyalty is to the Constitution not to a Federal Gvt. that constantly violates it.

          • HFlashman

            Gunner…which Constitution? The one you think or the real one? Because whatever you’re thnking is not even close to the reality of our Constitution.

          • DaveH

            Here is the Constitution (which all government officials swear to uphold):
            http://www.cato.org/constitution/constitution_en.html

            For those who don’t take Flashdunce’s word for it (that is anybody with half-a-brain).

          • HFlashman

            Dave….then why do you keep citing references and saying things in re: ‘the constitution’ which has no bearing on what the SCOTUS rulings define our Constitution as stating/meaning?

          • DaveH

            Unlike you, Flashdunce, I give people references to back up what I claim. You should try it, since you have no credibility on this board.

          • Vicki

            HFlashman’s proofs by bald assertion are rather droll.

          • Vicki

            I bet Gunners understanding of the Constitution is closer to reality then HFlashmans. I can use only their understanding of the 2nd Amendment to tell :). I could question both to list for me what enumerated rights are granted to the people by the Constitution but that is too easy.

          • HFlashman

            I could question both to list for me what enumerated rights are granted to the people by the Constitution but that is too easy. <—Vicki

            Go ahead. If you include the Bill of Rights only? Or the Consitution without the Amendments? Or the entire document as amended?

            Under the first fourteen, known as the Bill of Rights…we have five enumerated. But we should not forget the Ninth, which Justice Douglas in his concurring opinion in Roe v Wade stated we have Rights thereunder, not detailed in the Constitution and as yet undetermined, but which are present.

            Which for me is a very interesting point. I think if he did not rule the 14th to be the determinant area in his decision of Roe v Wade, he would have found the Right as given through the Ninth.

            Now Brandeis and Learned Hand both hinted that the Ninth may be more than boilerpalte by stating there is nothing in the Constitution that is meaningless…but Douglas to date is the oly one to state that the Ninth has meaning which may be far reaching and perhaps the most sweeping of all within the Constitution in determining the extent of what Rights we have.

            Now if you want to open up the discussion as to what some past decisions discussed what may be within the Constitution but as yet undecided…especially if you talk about Brandeis in his opinions especially concerning Speech and Privacy, and Cardozo when dealing with the 10th …

            So when you decide to ask Vicki…be certain to detail if you mean the Constitution as amended, as it stood prior to amendment etc.

          • HFlashman

            BTW Vicki…since I don’t believe I have ever enumerated what I believe the 2nd stands for, your statement as basing your opinion on what we (gunner and I) may see as it standing for is somewhat …well…uninformed.

            But for laughs, why don’t you go ahead and tell me what I believe the 2nd Amendment holds and why it is in the Constitution.

          • Vicki

            HFlashman writes:
            “I could question both to list for me what enumerated rights are granted to the people by the Constitution but that is too easy. <—Vicki

            Go ahead. If you include the Bill of Rights only? Or the Consitution without the Amendments? Or the entire document as amended?"

            HFlashman: "So when you decide to ask Vicki…be certain to detail if you mean the Constitution as amended, as it stood prior to amendment etc."

            I would of course mean this instance in time which thus would mean the entire Constitution including all amendments as they are TODAY since there are amendments which have also been repealed.

            Shall I take the rest of what you wrote to be your answer to my simple question?

          • Vicki

            HFlashman asks me:
            “But for laughs, why don’t you go ahead and tell me what I believe the 2nd Amendment holds and why it is in the Constitution.”

            It is not my place to put words in your mouth so why don’t you tell us what you believe about the 2nd Amendment, its meaning, and why it is in the Constitution. You did say on January 12, 2011 at 10:00 am:

            “I’m not anti 2nd Amendment..but quite honestly if i lived next door to half the posters on this board, I’d be mighty worried for the safety and well being of my family knowing these folks pack armor.”

            There is a hint of what your opinion may be. Feel free to elucidate.

          • DaveH

            That is the biggest load of double-speak that I have seen from Flashdunce yet. And that is exactly why I posted the link to the Constitution, so that anybody can easily see that Flashman’s comments are a load.
            Don’t buy a used car from that man.

          • DaveH

            I believe Flashdunce thinks he is impressing us. Yeah, he did. That was an impressive display of a true BS artist.

          • independant thinker

            Flashypants doesn’t even know the Bill of Rights is the first TEN amendments not the first fourteen.

        • thawtmonger

          Oh…again Mr. Lashman,you mean the one that separates church from state?You mean the one that gives lawbreakers the right to be conducting their unborn children into our nation,and then considered citizens?Which Constitution do you believe in?This shooting was not the result of mental issues,it was the result of “govern”mental issues.The guy didnt start aiming at just anyone.He sought out a politician,and ended up with a federal judge.If that isnt political,then I dont know what is.It seems to me that it is possible that he was angry at Miss Gifford.A politician,I might add.Now there is a following of trying to dissuade political discouse in the wake of a political shooting!How arrogant are those in the media to try to claim this man is insane?He is an assassin.He shot a politician with the intention of bringing about her demise.What wing of the spectrum he came from is irrelevant.He is a micro-cosm of todays America.On the fringe of dissolvence is where we stand.And the leaders we have been forced to choose from are sorely lacking in solutions to our dilemna.Wake up you sleeping society!This is merely the beggining,not the outcome.Politicians would have you believe that this is the public’s illness…what a lie!It is a direct reflection of their ill-fated choices to ignore the opinions of the citizenry.Now they seek to point the finger at us!I do not advocate violence of any kind,yet I am finally disposed to comment on the reality of the situation.In a nation where there are tens of millions of firearms,And no army on earth can march in to confiscate them all,it would seem like insanity has taken hold of governmental senses.It is indicative of their blatant disregard for reasonable thinking.They will not point the finger at Muslims which threaten the populace under religious proclivities,but they will make every citizen pay for that threat by feeling them up in the airport to ensure the safety of all!What a mockery of justice this is in our nation!Do we continue to tolerate these abuses?Is it politically correct to be complacent in the face of losing our liberties?Can we survive if we are continually foisted with this type of guilt by association?Wake up sleeping society!

        • DaveH

          Yeah, we know, Flashdunce, that you would expect people to continue playing in a game where you are breaking all the rules. If they don’t continue playing, they are “extremists” in your twisted view of the world.
          Do you really think that your adolescent attempts of manipulation with labeling fall on receptive ears amongst intelligent people?

          • Vicki

            A really fun thing to do in games and debates is to ignore the other sides rule breaking. Your side breaks no rules and still beat them. Used to do that in volleyball all the time :).

          • Michael J.

            Vicki,
            I like the idea of ignoring the misdeeds of the left. Sounds about like what happened on Nov. 2nd.

        • http://gunner689 gunner689

          The Constitution of the United States, dummy. Not the one for the Soviet Union or Cuba which you follow.

          • HFlashman

            Gunner…i never read the Cuban Constitution, though I have read the Soviet Constitution.

            Interestingly enough, there was a study perfomed in the late 70′s where researchers stripped the names from the two Constitutions (US and USSR) and substituted made up names. They had two groups read the two. The group compaosed of self described Conservatives said the US Constution was ‘communist’ and decided they would prefer the USSR version to live under. The self described Liberals were just the opposite.

          • Michael J.

            HFlashdance,
            Again I say Nuts!

    • Delores Smith

      RICHARD,
      It was essentially a Democratic Congress that gave Obama what he wanted…Demo votes..57 to 42. Every amendment presented by Republicans were either voted down, shelved, a point of order called, or scratched at conference. Obama did pick off votes from Collins,
      Snowe, Lugar. All Demos needed was 60 votes for cloture. The Health Bill was passed under budget reconcillation…against the rules of the Senate.
      Delores Smith Delores109@cox.net

  • edwin radler

    we have a god given right to own a firearm!!

    our founders gave us the right, but they only parroted what the lord god jesus christ said. “he that hath no sword(gun), let him sell his garment, and buy one(luke 22:36).

    • Vicki

      Our founders gave us a document designed to PROTECT that (Insert favorite creator name here) given right.

  • ronald bell

    What we see as a TRAGEDY, President Brack Huisein Obama sees as a PHOTO OPP, to boost his POLLS he will make his APPEARANCE, as if he really cares. SHAME ON YOU PRESIDENT OBAMA is this the transparency you were talking about during the election, we see you loud and clear.

    • Michael J.

      ronald bell,
      We can only hope that when he arrives in Arizona for his photo opp, that Sheriff Joe Arpiao arrests him for being an illegal alien.

      • http://gunner689 gunner689

        Wouldn’t that be wonderful ! We can only hope. I wonder how the feds case against America’s sheriff is stacking up. As usual they will pursue it till they get the results they want. I wish we had more like him in our country.

    • eddie47d

      Your comments were shallow and uncalled for and I’m sure Obama cares deeply about this tragedy and the victims. I believe you are the one using this unfortunate event to further your hatred for this President.

      • Susie

        Obama is a narcicist, and cares only about himself.

      • DaveH

        Eddie the Mindreader. He knows what both the president and Ronald are thinking. And he has the nerve to call Ronald shallow for expressing his opinion.
        But then, I guess, as a Union member, Eddie has had to rationalize a lot of underhanded actions.

        • eddie47d

          You seem to know what Ronald Reagan was thinking and quite a few others. It’s called opinion Dave H. so quit being the dummy. I don’t want your intelligence quotient to go down any further.

      • Bill

        Eddie47d,

        Drink some more kool-aid.

        • eddie47d

          I can’t the right wing bought up all the packets.

      • Karolyn

        I simply cannot understand the hate for Obama. It just baffles me. I don’t care if he went to church every day and used God in all his speeches, these people would still hate him. He is simply a human being just like everybody else, who has a family he loves and a country he is doing his best for. He may not be right in all he does, but I believe he is not just doing it for himself. I believe that any politician gets into politics for the good of the country. However, of course, so many are tainted by the Washington and lobbyists.

        • DaveH

          I simply cannot understand your hatred for Conservatives, Karolyn. Perhaps you could explain that to me.

          • Karolyn

            Come on, Dave! I don’t hate anyone! I really don’t – never have.

          • DaveH

            I was mocking you, Karolyn. If you want to act like a Liberal drama queen, accusing people of being haters because they don’t like being stepped on, then expect me to treat you the same.

          • eddie47d

            Karolyn never said anything about Conservatives so why are you putting words into her mouth. I thought you didn’t like that you big ol’ hypocrite. Yes,Karolyn he does that to me all the time.

        • http://gunner689 gunner689

          No one rational hates BO. We hate his policies, his agenda, and the road he’s trying to take America down. Other than that I’d drink a beer with him, especially if he bought it.

          • JeffH

            gunner, my sentiments exactly. Well said and very true.

        • Vicki

          I do not hate Obama. I do not know him. I do not even hate his policies for I know them not.

          I DO hate the policies enacted in his name and as reported in multiple news outlets both unbiased and biased.

          • JeffH

            Vicki, ditto on that.

        • kate8

          Karolyn – Why are you libs so obsessed with hate? And how is disagreeing with him hatred?

          He is destroying America. I really hate that. But, to quote Queen Hillary, “I’m sick and tired of being told that if we disagree with this administration that we are not patriotic. We are Americans, and we have the right to question and disagree with ANY administration!”

          And why is it okay that there is so much hatred of Bush coming from the Left?

  • Michael J.

    The Leftist first thought while victims were being transported by ambulance to the hospital, was that this incident offered them a glimmer of hope to salvage their political futures lost to them by voter mandate on Nov. 2nd. This unveils the cold-hearted nature of Liberals that not even for a minute mourned for the victims and their losses. They instead without hesitation or factual evidence convicted in the court of progressive opinion, the ones they fear the most. The ones who speak for what is to the left, the inconvenient truth about the Liberal/Progressive Agenda to fundamentally change our nation against the will of the people.

    The facts in this matter about the shooter are completely opposite of the lefts portrayal of him. An ex-classmate who knows him well actually described Loughner as “left-wing” and a “pothead.” It is now being reported that Loughner listed Mein Kampf and The Communist Manifesto as two of his favorite books and that he wrote on his now scrubbed FaceBook page that his heroes were “Barack Obama, Saul Alinsky, Fidel Castro, Che Guevara, Hugo Chavez, Noam Chomsky, Mao Tse-tung, Joseph Stalin, and Yassir Arafat” and that “Obama and the Progressives will overcome the tyrrany of big business and the racist Tea Party.”

    Sadly, I expect there is more intimidation and innuendo to come because spewing vitriol is Standard Operating Procedure for the extreme left. As the father of the radical activism, Saul Alinsky, once stated, “Ridicule is man’s most potent weapon” and “If you push a negative hard and deep enough, it will break through into its counterside.”

    To put it another way: If at first you don’t succeed, lie, lie, lie again.

    • JKO

      Well said Michael and I do agree with you. BUT I will point out that many that you mentioned – Stalin, Hitler, etc. – are actually extreme right wing nuts. It’s like the line between love and hate – very thin.
      It isn’t about which side you are on, it’s about your moral compass. Do you (the everyone you, not just you Michael) understand right from wrong? Do you think of others before yourself? Do you serve God? These are the questions, not whether you are left or right.

      • Michael J.

        JKO,
        My conscience is clear, thank you.
        Hitler and Stalin were never right in any sense of the word, just liberal wishful thinking.

        • HFlashman

          Ok Michael, here’s a fair qustion. If neither Hitler or Stalin were Right wing dictators…whom in history would you say were?

          • TIME

            Well Flash for all of your alledged brilliance it would seem you can’t quite grasp the base concept.

            Far right = -(ANARCHY,)-
            FAR LEFT = ++

            So how odd is it there is no leader when total ANARCHY exist.

            Yet under complete and total CONTROL we have both
            “NAZI and MARXIST” rule.

            People don’t respond to this FREAK of Nature, do yourselfs a big favor any of them that have such mindless post are bought and paid for..
            Unlike you whom he is working very hard to inflame, why he makes more $$$$$ when you respond to his mindless rants.

            Just stop responding, Can I make that anymore clear to you all?

          • HFlashman

            Seriously Time? you can’t cite a Right wing dictator in all of history? And you say not to take me seriously when you can’t grasp the simple concepts of political ideology????

            Time…hear that calling in the background? That’s your mama saying to get home because it’s time to change your diaper. Come back when you grow up.

          • Michael J.

            HFlashman,
            Nuts!

          • HFlashman

            Michael…care to explain? I have no knowledge of any Right wing dictator named ‘Nuts’. Or is that what you’re saying since you were called on your stance?

            You can’t even asnwer the question…and you expect someone to think of you as an intelligent person? Jeesh ….

          • TIME

            Flash makes my point abundantly clear yet again.

            There truly is no cure for aggressively stupid.

            So hows that alleged trucking Biz of yours going Bubba?

          • DaveH

            Hitler and Stalin were both Socialists. We have provided referential proof to that time after time. But Flashdunce and JKO are determined to turn the facts upside down with, as usual, no proof whatsoever. This folks, is Liberalism at its finest.
            What will they try to convince us of next? That taxes are a figment of our imagination? That the Federal Debt (now $14 Trillion) is a figment of our imagination?

          • Vicki

            HFlashman says:
            “Ok Michael, here’s a fair qustion. If neither Hitler or Stalin were Right wing dictators…whom in history would you say were?”

            There were none for the political spectrum we look to the dimension of 0 government to total government. The claim of right wing with respect to hitler, stalin etc are disinformation for the purpose of deliberate confusion.

            In the proper spectrum (0-100% government) we find that ALL of the dictators are on the 100% side. That people of the time called them left or right or up or down is irrelevant.

            Here is a lesson for those wishing to become wiser.
            http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N4r0VUybeXY

          • http://marcum@wildblue.net coal miner

            MichaelJ,

            Right wing dictators:

            Franco, Hitler, Ghenghis Khan, Idi Amin, Vlad the Impaler, Caesar, Pinochet, Clive of India, King George, Mussolini, Victor Emanuel III, King Louis, Marie Antonteette, KAISER bill, Salazaar, Greek millitary dictators, Turkish dictators, National Party of South Africa, King Leopold, Hirohito, Caligula, Tamerlane, Kings of Saudi Arabia, Kings of Nepal, Sueharto, Kaing Kai Chek, Argentna;s millitary dictators, Pakistan army regimes, Atilla the Hun, Kings of Bulgaria, Brazlian army regime, Marcos, Charles I, James VI, Petain, Diaz, Mobutu, Horthy, Ottoman Sultans, King Herod, Ivan the terrible, Tsar Nicholas, Manchu emperors. Chin Emperors, Shoguns, Austrian Emperors, Karl Von Hapsburg, Phillip of Spain, Elizabeth I, Henry VIII, Bloody Mary, Napoleon III, The Bourbons, The Yuogoslav kings, Romanian kings, Nero, Somoza, Ashante kings, Iranian shahs, The King of Thailand, Dutch royal family, Elizabeth Bathory

          • Vicki

            Coal miner writes:

            “Right wing dictators:” followed by a long list. I ask. Any supporting evidence? Start by defining right wing.

          • JeffH

            Vocki, LOL! Thought I’d mention that reading your comments is a real pleasure, you are a real asset to this blogsite as are so many others…you always manage to “hit ‘em ‘tween the eyes” with facts.

          • JeffH

            OOPS…Vicki…

          • eddie47d

            There goes Dave H. again turning the facts upside down. You repeat your B.S. so much you actually believe it.

          • Vicki

            DaveH says:
            “But Flashdunce and JKO are determined to turn the facts upside down with, as usual, no proof whatsoever.”

            then Eddie47D says:
            “There goes Dave H. again turning the facts upside down.”

            I begin to see why people think Eddie47d is a parrot.

          • Vicki

            Thanks JeffH.

          • eddie47d

            Putting Dave in his place,right where he belongs,so many hypocrites so little time!

          • http://marcum@wildblue.net coal miner

            HFashman,

            Leftwing and rightwing dictatorship:

            In fact dictatorship dates to dawn of civilization and left ideas are pretty modern. So 99% of dictatorships in history (yep, starting from ancient Greek tyrannies till Hitler, Franco and then to numerous modern days military juntas. And off course Saddam was right wing).
            Right wing leader uses brute force of loyal troops and police. Rightwing dictatorships favor cult of power, nationalism and sometimes even nazi ideas.
            Leftist, while often also making good use of police state, rely on utopias of social equality (unthinkable before industrial era, though Plato and Aristotle imagined ideal societies, none have blamed slavery). So in left-wing dictatorship people are sacrificing their comfort, freedom and even lives in the name of magnificent dream. So prison is in minds, no reason in oppressing everyone, just imprison or execute those who dare to doubt ideology.
            Left tyranny is very close to theocracy, thats why communism must be atheistic, religion is competing for souls of people (alternative brainwasher). Though religion is about happiness in afterlife, while communism is about happiness in this mortal realm, but for other generation (so people sacrifice themselves for their grandchildren).

            It looks like lots of people here are completely ignorant. Thats sad, “ignorance is power” (for tyrants) as saying from 1984 goes.

      • thawtmonger

        Is that the humble opinion of your Leftist college professor?That socialists like Hitler and Stalin were right wing?Socialism is Leftist to its very core.It is a brainchild of Engels and Marx.Simon and Owen had these things firmly in mind,but it was Marx,and Engels that made them manifest in modern culture.These men were purely leftist in every sense of the word.Hitler and Stalin were offshoots of the same branch regardless of their personal feelings on the matter.Some nut-case college professor has clouded your mind with lies.And like so many others you have chosen to believe them because it sounds plausible.You and your ilk are the reason for the anger that is manifest in the fabric of America today. Misinformation by ultra-educated liberals is the main symptom of the malaise in this nation.Its eventual outcome is for the sickness to explode in the society causing both tragedy and civil unrest,if not all out civil war.I pray that this does not happen,but the ignorance of the leftist media has made the outcome nearly unavoidable. It is truly a case of the blind leading the blind.Sad commentary on Americas future.

        • HFlashman

          OK Thaw…I’ll ask the same of you as I did Michael…let’s see if you have the backbone to answer. If neither Hitler or Stalin were Right wing dictators…whom in history would you say were?

          • thawtmonger

            Julius Caesar,Napoleon Bonaparte,and I am certain that the list would grow as I go on.But you have very little ideas,brought forth by very little actual education.You have a college background that is tainted by leftist oversite.It is because of this that you cannot fathom the wreckage that you bring to the nation.Why do you seek to misguide others,by perpetuating lies taught to you by liars?Is it your intention to mislead others?Are you satiated by doing so?Again….the blind leading the blind.

          • libertytrain

            Napoleon was interesting in where he began his plot to take over the world. He began studying as a child how to do this. His theory, I think was don’t get mad, get even.

          • HFlashman

            Caesar and Napoleon….hokayyyyyy. Never studied history I take it …

          • thawtmonger

            Oh Mr.Lashman…do you posess a history book from the 1850′s as I do?I actually own a two book biography of Napoleon,written by someone that knew him.Someone who was not an Historian,but was there with him.Again you have clouded information which doesnt come from legitimate sources.Some quasi-elitists have educated you incorrectly.You have been duped,and you dont like the fact.Silly how when you call others out and they provide an answer that you cannot abridge their facts with idiosyncracy.You engage in treating others as you claim they treat you,but that is the tactic of your kind.Farewell my friend,see that your obscure vision gets corrected by doing your homework in real Historical context and not as a product of on-line usage.

          • DaveH

            Prove to us, Flashdunce, that Hitler and Stalin were right-wingers. You’re the one making the claim, so the onus of proof is on you.

          • DaveH

            thawtmonger, you are wrong. Flashdunce has not been duped. He knows damn well what the truth is. He just prefers not to speak it. He is a typical Liberal misinformer, and obviously feeds at the trough. Why else would he try so hard to spread his Liberal lies?

          • HFlashman

            LOL…I find it laughable that a few state Hitler and Stalin were not Right wing dictators…and the only “right wing dictators’ anyone has cited so far are Caesar and Bonaparte. LMAO at that one. How about Idi ? Or the Shah? Or Khomeni? Or Duvalier? Somosa? Franco? Mussilini? Batista? Suharto? Allende? Any of those maybe?

          • DaveH

            I find it laughable, Flashdunce, that you continue to state your claims even though you have proven time and again that you have no credibility. Try some references, since you word means nothing to us.

          • Vicki

            This is important enough that I shall answer the question again here

            HFlashman says:
            “OK Thaw…I’ll ask the same of you as I did Michael…let’s see if you have the backbone to answer. If neither Hitler or Stalin were Right wing dictators…whom in history would you say were?”

            What the people called the tyrants, left, right, up, down is irrelevant. In the proper spectrum (0-100% government) we find that ALL of the dictators are on the 100% side.

            Here is a lesson for those wishing to become wiser.
            http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N4r0VUybeXY

          • eddie47d

            Flashman; I proved to Dave H. on a previous day why Hitler was a right winger and he is still blowing smoke. His silliness get’s rather boring after a while.

          • kate8

            DaveH – It’s the liberal way. Repeat a lie enough times and they think it will become true.

          • independant thinker

            While I won’t argue about Hitler being either right or left Stalin was definately left in fact he was far left.

          • Vicki

            Vicki says:
            Your comment is awaiting moderation.
            January 13, 2011 at 3:04 am

            eddie47d says:
            “Flashman; I proved to Dave H. on a previous day why Hitler was a right winger and he is still blowing smoke.”

            Actually you did no such thing. We have however offered plenty of evidence that Hitler was a left wing liberal socialist. That you continue to ignore our evidence is evidence that your mind is not as open as you claim.

            Here we shall do it again.
            http://democraticpeace.wordpress.com/2009/05/23/hitler-was-a-socialist/

            Of course the entire argument is meaningless since left, right, up, down are not at all well defined but one thing IS very nice and objectively measurable. 0-100% government. In this political view left and right wing are not what is important. The amount of government and what restrictions placed on government abuse of power is.
            In this view it doesn’t matter if the government is called left wing or right wing. All that matters is how much and what protections.

          • Vicki

            My bad that I put 2 links in one post. Moderators feel free to delete the post with 2 links

            Here is the link to the explanation of 0-100% government and where hitler falls on it.
            http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N4r0VUybeXY

          • eddie47d

            That’s at least the 4th time that video has been posted and although a good one it certainly doesn’t prove that Hitler was left wing by any stretch. There are several comparisons of American right wingers to Hitlers behavior so it would actually be better if his name wasn’t even brought up. It’s been used and abused by everyone whether left or right.

          • http://marcum@wildblue.net coal miner

            DaveH,

            Hitler hated socialism and communism,he called it a Jewish invention.George lincoln Rockwell was once asked was he a leftest.He went ballistic,he said he never was on the side left,but on the right.He even challenge Robert Welch to duel for calling him a communist.Write to American Nazi party and they will give you the same answer.He was an extreme rightwinger

          • http://marcum@wildblue.net coal miner

            HFlashman,

            FBI Report:

            Attacks committed by people who favor individual freedoms over governmental regulation are classified as right-wing domestic terrorism. Such extremists may be motivated by issues of race, such as the Ku Klux Klan, or other issues, such as opposition to abortion or immigration. According to the FBI, right-wing terrorists often take “racist and racial supremacy and embrace antigovernment, antiregulatory” platforms. Far-right movements often blend political rhetoric with racial undertones, despite recent attempts to reach a broader audience by eliminating racial language. Authorities do not categorize people with extreme right-wing political ideals as threats unless the group they are affiliated with demonstrates a real potential for violence.

          • Vicki

            eddie47d says:
            “That’s at least the 4th time that video has been posted and although a good one it certainly doesn’t prove that Hitler was left wing by any stretch.”

            Very good. You actually watched the video. Now go back to the statements where it is linked and you will NOT find that I have claimed that the video proved anything about Hitler other than he was on the side of total government. And the video doesn’t actually prove even that. The video uses what we already know about Hitler to make a point about total government and how it goes by many names including but not limited to Nazism.

            Now let me direct your attention to the link in the post just above.
            http://democraticpeace.wordpress.com/2009/05/23/hitler-was-a-socialist/
            Where much evidence IS presented to compare Hitler to Socialist.

            Eddie47d: “There are several comparisons of American right wingers to Hitlers behavior…”

            Since you thoughtfully neglected to provide any cites this assertion will be added to the (growing) pile of eddie47d’s fast (imaginary) facts.

      • http://gunner689 gunner689

        Poor JKO, another victim of our public education system. Someone, please, send him an actual history book written before 1975.

  • Shane P.

    PRO-Choice
    Choose Whom You Serve!

    • skip

      But don’t shoot the ones you don’t choose. And at least try to talk with them.

      • http://gunner689 gunner689

        never try to teach a pig to sing. it’s a waste of time and it annoys the pig.

        • DaveH

          LOL.

    • Bill

      Shane,

      Pro choice is an illusion masked in a disguise of freedom of a woman over her body, which results in the murder of an innocent life.

      • Karolyn

        The spirit that was freed through abortion is free to come back if it so desires – reincarnation.

        • Vicki

          you have some proof of this “reincarnation”?

          • libertytrain

            Ah so it’s ok to perform abortions apparently via Carolyn – cause the spirit can reincarnate. You good with that Vicki? Now if we can only talk to one of those reincarnated souls and get the real scoop.

          • Vicki

            Does Karolyn have some proof of this thing “spirit”?

          • Karolyn

            There is much more to be found online, but this story is one that is particularly striking. The boy, who at 2 was particularly interested in planes, and as he got older, it became apparent that he knew a lot more than he should with no previous instruction, turning out to be the reincanation of a downed pilot during WWII.

            http://abcnews.go.com/Primetime/Technology/story?id=894217&page=1

            I also have a dear friend who regressed her son through hypnotism to past lives.

          • Karolyn

            One can never prove the existence of a spirit or soul, but one just KNOWS it exists.

          • Vicki

            and how do we “know” it reincarnates?

          • libertytrain

            vicki vicki vicki – you just know.

          • Vicki

            Karolyn thank you for the anecdotal evidence to support re-incarnation. Now why do we have the right to deprive the spirit of the body it selected? This also tends to support the argument that a child is a child from conception since the spirit of that “child” already exists, already has free will and already has selected that woman to be the birth mother.

          • libertytrain

            I’m sorry I’m being silly with Karolyn. I have no recollections of dying before so I don’t remember any of the truths about these things. And I do look forward to that part of dying – the knowing.

          • libertytrain

            Vicki – that was an excellent comment. Your posts are always impressive – that one is a good one to ponder.

          • Karolyn

            Vicki – We all, as spirit, create our own lives, even to the spirit that is freed through abortion. That spirit is freed to come back if it so wishes.

          • Vicki

            Karolyn says:
            “Vicki – We all, as spirit, create our own lives, even to the spirit that is freed through abortion. That spirit is freed to come back if it so wishes.”

            So why is it ok to free the spirit against its will when it is inside the mother but NOT ok to free YOUR spirit against your will while you sit there?

        • Vicki

          libertytrain thank you.

      • Vicki

        I DO have freedom over my own body. However the child has freedoms too. There are 2 of us in this question. Did anyone ask the child?

        • HFlashman

          Vicki..define when an embryo becomes a “child” …

          • Vicki

            That is a VERY good question and shows that you DO think. Though some here have their doubts. Now I ask you, when indeed does a collection of cells become a child?

            Until we have an accurate way of determining that I STRONGLY recommend we err on the side of caution and go with abstinence and adoption and forget about abortion.

          • kate8

            Vicki – Here’s how I see it, for what it’s worth.

            The Spirit of God issues forth continually. It is Life Itself. If Life is present, God is present, as the two cannot be separate.

          • independant thinker

            Solomon, the wisest man to ever live according to the Bible said the spirit enters into the child in the womb.

    • American Citizen

      The choice is between life or death.

      • Karolyn

        And there is nothing wrong with death. Why does everybody think that death is such a terrible thing?

        • libertytrain

          Death isn’t a terrible thing when it’s a natural event. It’s the natural culmination of life. But your conversation seems to be on an abortion thread – why not kill all then since death isn’t a bad thing.

          • Karolyn

            As I replied above, we all create our own lives. When we “die”, it is our own creation.

          • libertytrain

            By that logic, it was ok for the shooter in Tucson to kill those adults and child because they had planned on dying at that moment in time. Too many holes in that concept for me.

          • kate8

            Karolyn – And you mock ME for saying things you deem unprovable.

            Sheesh.

  • http://MSN.com Alice

    Now, we can say good bye to our freedom. Governments are behaving as a God with people. Where are our patriots who help Americans to get back our freedom and happiness? …

    • skip

      Wrong – gun carriers and shooters are serving as God, and particularly those who shout down anyone in a town hall meeting who might have a different opinion or idea. Who owns the truth – tell me – is it onlhy you?

      • Bill

        Hey Skip,

        Those Town Hall meetings were an opportunity for the public to voice their opinion of dissatisfaction with the choice of a health care bill being forced on them. If the trend of ignorance continues, look for more episodes of violence to occur as people become more disillusioned with the political system.

      • Vicki

        Truth is not “owned”. Truth “is”.

    • http://gunner689 gunner689

      we’re here Alice. 2012 is coming.

      • Vicki

        Almost time for tea. Now where is that silly cat.

    • DaveH

      We cannot rely on a few chosen leaders to protect our freedom. We must all educate ourselves and become more active. The Liberals have been propagandizing our children for many decades and we need to reverse it.
      It isn’t hard to win a debate with a Liberal if you realize that their main weapons are personal attacks and fear-mongering. Their “facts” are easy to counter. Their tactics work only on ignorant people who base their thinking on emotions rather than logic.
      We can win this battle, but it is going to take a lot of effort because people want to believe those sweet sounding lies that are promulgated by Liberals. Reality is a much tougher sell.

      • HFlashman

        “It isn’t hard to win a debate with a Liberal if you realize that their main weapons are personal attacks and fear-mongering” <– Dave H

        Errr DaveH… tell us again what arguments you've won? Those you refuse to answer or stomp off after pouting like a child? That kind of "win"?

        A good debate with a Conservative brings out the best of both sides. Any debate with an extremist wacked right winger brings out the fun as they sputter and foam when their 'facts' are exposed as being made up lies programmed into their simplistic minds….

        • DaveH

          Flashdunce, I wouldn’t even think for a moment that you would think I won any debate with you. A person has to have a modicum of intelligence to know they’ve lost. You don’t.

        • Vicki

          HFlashman writes:
          “…as they sputter and foam when their ‘facts’ are exposed as being made up lies programmed into their simplistic minds…”

          Projecting again I see.

          • JeffH

            OOOH…or should I say ouch?LOL!

      • kate8

        Well said, DaveH. And we also must not be afraid to face the truth, whatever that is. If we are not willing to confront the bogyman at the door, he will destroy us.

        What most often happens is, when we face the monster head on, he turns out not to be as big as we feared.

  • http://aol.com sean murrey

    the left is using this to take our guns away from us,the bitch of a congresswoman is trying hard these people are against the constition.

  • DANNY

    In a nation of over 300 million people, on nut case goes on a rampage and it turns the whole country inside out. When will we understand that the laws of nature dictate that there will always be a small percentage of misfits whether it be human, animal or whatever. This being said, no matter what law is passed or how hard we try, we will always have this small percentage boil to the surface. To over-react by passing more laws to limit our second amendment rights is about as smart as taking a hunters guns away after being attacked by a rogue bear. This is all political bull crap and an attempt to never waste a crisis. When will we look at the unvarnished facts that more guns in the hands of reponsible citizens reduce crime, not increase it. Also, lets not foreget that when someone notices the rogue bear acting like he has rabies, common sense tells you to beware and take action to reduce the chance it may harm someone. Now the hard part is how to take the proper action in our politically correct, lawyer ridden society. Good luck on that one.

    • HFlashman

      “In a nation of over 300 million people, on nut case goes on a rampage and it turns the whole country inside out. When will we understand that the laws of nature dictate that there will always be a small percentage of misfits whether it be human, animal or whatever. This being said, no matter what law is passed or how hard we try, we will always have this small percentage boil to the surface. ” <—- Danny

      Would not that same reasoning apply to Muslims which are denigrated, have hate spewing rants directed against them, and calls for extermination?

      • ValDM

        We don’t wnat them exterminated, we just want them to go home. Barring that, THEY need to stop their incessant push for Shariah law. If they want to live here, then accept OUR laws and culture. BTW, I notice you don’t/won’t give Christians the same latitude. Flashy speaks from both sides of his mouth. Soon, you will have to come down off your lofty perch on the fence. Which side of the fence will you come down on?

        • HFlashman

          ValDM…so i don’t err in responding to what you are asking….clarify what you’re meaning when you say I don’t give the same latitude to christians.

          • ValDM

            Every time someone responds that we need to get on our knees and pray to the God of our fathers (which I firmly believe), you always have something quite nasty to say about it. I’ve been reading your posts for more than 6 months, and you’ve made yourself quite evident in your leanings. Pro-Mulim; Anti-Christian. I’ve seen it more times than I can count. If you say it often enough, the meaning becomes clear, and your meaning has become as clear a crystal.

          • HFlashman

            Actually Val, I poitnt out the fallacies of the religion being used as a supporting argument foisting a policy of behavior upon the rst of the non member population. And by non member, i speak of those who are not the sect which the writer blongs to…not just the overall religion. If a Muslim was doing the same, my response would be similar. If a Hindu was doing the same, my response would be similar.

            What someone holds as a personal belief is their private concern. When they wear it on thier sleeve so to speak, and state I should submit simply because it’s what they believe…ain’t gonna happen. Same as if they try and change history using thier own religious dogma to try and subvert the facts.

            Ever read The Rise and Fall of the Roman Empire by Gibbons? You know it’s a reference book used by almost all who study history right? though some parts are challenged from time to time as more comes to light, even after over 100 years it still remains the most cited reference when dealing with the Roman Empire.

            Know what gibbons states as the two primary reasons for the fall of the Empire? And not the gradual fall, it went from being as large as the US in trritory and three armies to losing those great armies and the western part in less than 100 years. He cited Barbariansim as one reason…the constant pressure from without. He also cited Christianity. Because Christianity…of all the large religions, punsihes independent philosophical thinkingand replaces it with a blessing upon ignorance and belief in a supernatural being providing answer to all. It replaces free thought and variety with a demand for adherence to ancient fables ad rejectio of anything not in agreement with its monotheistic religious tenets. And they push those tenets on all who are not of the faith.

            Yes…Islam does much of the same, but I have yet to be told I must adhere to the tenets of its followers in setting forth policy of this nation and I have yet to be told by a Muslim this nation was founded upon any sect’s religious principles.

            If there was a “sharia law’ trying to be foisted upon us, I would challenge it and fight it as I do now with the “christian law’ time and again attempted to be foisted upon me. To date, any such claim that ‘sharia law’ was being attempted in ths nation has proven to be hyped fake lies.

            You may believe in any belief system you choose. You may worship under any sect you desire. But do not try and foist your religious tenets and belief upon me claiming they are superior to all other thought. Do not think that attempts to create a “christian taliban nation’ is acceptable.

            When was the last time you heard of a Muslim evangelist? When was the last time you heard of a Christian evangelist?

            One wants a christian theocracy? fine…go somewhere in the world and knock yourself out. But don’t think implementing a theocracy here is going to be acceptable.

            Believe what you may. be my guest. Don’t try and foist it upon society as the ‘true’ belief and we’ll be fine.

        • Kinetic1

          ValDM,
          Funny thing, but most of the Muslim religious extremists just want US to go home. They want us to take our culture, our McDonalds and our Levis and let them have their own culture.

          As for Sharia law, there has never been such a straw man. The U.S. is in no danger of loosing it’s identity to Sharia. Our courts are not bending over backwards and allowing Sharia to supersede our laws. We don’t turn a blind eye when a Muslim violates U.S. law in the exercise of their own. This is just one more instance of those in power using fear to keep the rest of us in our place.

          • DaveH
          • DaveH
          • ValDM

            You should probably tell that to the fine people of Dearborn and N.Y. Sharia courts are operating in the U.S. BTW, if you didn’t get a chance to watch any of the confirmation hearings re: Kagan, you might want to look into that. She says that she would turn to Int’l law for “more insight”. Sharia law may not be on your radar, but it certainly is for many more people. If it isn’t strongly stood against now, it will be right around the corner for us all.

          • DaveH

            Read especially about the part that women are required to enter the mosque through a side door:
            http://sixthcolumn.blogspot.com/2004/12/dearborn-michigan-americas-muslim.html

          • DaveH

            Liberals are a confusing breed of people to say the least. They say they are for women’s rights but then stick up for the very anti-women Muslims.
            They are trying their best to rid America of Christians, but then stick up for the Muslims who seem to be involved in almost every conflict around the world.
            Could it be that the pushy controlling Liberals feel a kinship with the pushy controlling Muslims?

          • libertytrain

            Dave – what you said is something I had found quite the conundrum for years and years – especially the rights of women – were they only for some women and not others – I think watching and being a part of the movement years ago, then came the verbiage and examples that we were not to be involved in the rights of women elsewhere – none of our business, not our right to become involved, etc. – just that one aspect in the beginning found me more and more turned away from the left. Then it only continued with more and more illogical events after another. Just an aside – Silly it’s ok to make fun of a nun’s mode of dress, but watch your mouth with a Muslim woman.

          • DaveH

            I think as time goes on, Liberty, thanks to the Internet and Fox Business Channel (John Stossel, Judge Napolitano), more and more people are going to wake up to the twisted mindset that is possessed by Liberals. That is why they are working to control the Internet and silence Conservative Radio — too many people are waking up.
            Liberals are out for power and redistribution of the wealth, and they will do and say anything to accomplish those goals.

          • libertytrain

            Dave, I think perhaps you are correct in your assessment – It seems to me I had a fine nun in history class, that oftentimes said, “Girls, knowledge is power.” Loved that woman, of course, as Denniso says, we are not as educated as them. Educated they may be but are they educated? :)

          • Karolyn

            Dave – This is one incident in this huge country out of all the incidents that happen on a daily basis. The Dearborn administration apparently is trying to keep peace by being stupid. I cannot imagine these charges will get anywhere. I do not believe this points to our country being taken over by Sharia law!

          • DaveH

            Tell that to the non-muslims in Dearborn, Karolyn.

          • libertytrain

            Perhaps, isolated? However, it seems like a door has been opened more than a crack.

        • Karolyn

          a large segment of the Muslim population here are American citizens. They are home!

  • Angel Wannabe

    so skip, in esscense your willing to take away more of the American peoples right to bear arms, because of a couple of this tragic events?-That amounts to stopping production on the life saving drug pennecillin because a handful of people are allergic!_ Granted this was horrible incident, no doubt about it!__My point is the Criminal or the sick mind doesn’t care what laws are in place, thats why they’re referred to as criminals.(stating the obvious)

  • mom1954

    IT’S EASY FOR PEOPLE TO BLAME GUNS. MY MOTTO IS ” GUNS KILL PEOPLE DO PENCILS MISSPELL WORDS?” I KNOW THAT THE ONLY REASON THE MAN THAT WAS TRYING TO COME THRU MY FRONT DOOR (WITHOUT AN INVITE) DECIDED TO GO SOMEWHERE ELSE WHEN HE HEARD MY GLOCK BEING CHAMBERED. I’M NOT A MENTAL CASE JUST A SENIOR CITIZEN WANTING MY HOME TO BE SAFE FROM THE MENTALS OUT THERE. HERE IN LAS VEGAS EVEN THE COPS AREN’T SAFE IN THERE OWN HOMES.

  • Gene

    Headline: “AZ CRONGRESS WOMAN GABRIELLE GIFFORDS SHOT IN HEAD BY CRAZED GUNMAN. Myriad government officials and media pundits exhibit immediate signs of brain damage/insanity.”

  • stilldazed

    Over reaction and hype from both sides of the political spectrum after a crisis, with a call to arms by some emotional fools on both sides. Those were people killed, have some empathy for the friends and family. Let the courts lay blame as in the constitution. Chill out, hold your peace and man up.

  • KIRBY

    OBAMMA= CHICAGO CORUPTION AT ITS FINEST

    • Angel Wannabe

      LIRBY__yeah and now we’ll have daley to help with the delightful Chicago politics too!

    • Angel Wannabe

      sorry I meant Kirby!

  • Teresa

    You know I’m sitting here reading all these post and I am trying to imagine myself…if I were there…if I had of witnessed these poor innocent victims being gunned down, especially a 9 yr. old child never even having a chance to live. I can NOT imagine the pain these families are going through. I can’t imagine the pain they will go through for the rest of their life. And here we are at a point where WE THE PEOPLE need to recognize the signifiance of what is going on. I do not know how I would have reacted in the split second, but I know I would give my life for anyone of you here. And I am thankful we live in a country where we still have our right to bear arms, for without that we truly are nothing more than slaves. There is sick and twisted people all in this world we live in and some media and politicians will feed off of tragic events only to fuel their agendas and it not only is sad but very heart felt by all but WE can not sink to their levels. WE are better, WE do stand for more, WE do represent more, WE are not the ignorant masses in which they think. My heart aches so for these families and I hope you all continue to pray for them.

    • kate8

      I agree, Teresa. I feel hearsick at this senseless slaughter.

      I look at my little grandson, and I don’t want to even imagine what the parents of that beautiful little girl are going through. I’m not sure I’d have the strength to handle it as well, and with so much dignity, as they are.

      And the rest of the families, as well. I’ve been praying for all of them, and for the miraculous recovery of Ms. Gifford.

      My daughter has a friend who shot himself in the head when he was a teenager. He is perfectly normal today. Miracles do happen.

  • http://www.personalliberty.com Angel

    My heart goes out to Glen Beck, Rush Limbaugh and the rest. They seem to feel that they need to defend themselves rather than mourn for those lost, and try to change to be more civil. Maybe it is because a more civil tone in political discussion would put them out of business.

    • Angel Wannabe

      Randy, They’d be more than happy to mourn, if you Libs would stop trying to change the language and blame the tragedy in Arizona on them, you guys are a bunch of simpletons._Just because ya keep repeating something doesn’t make it truth, You only hope it will.

      • Joe_K

        Joseph Goebbles, Reich Minister of Propaganda for Adolph Hitler said:

        “If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it. The lie can be maintained only for such time as the State can shield the people from the political, economic and/or military consequences of the lie. It thus becomes vitally important for the State to use all of its powers to repress dissent, for the truth is the mortal enemy of the lie, and thus by extension, the truth is the greatest enemy of the State.”

        Paul Lundgren said: “It has always been interesting to me how easy it is to spread a rumor and build or destroy someone’s reputation. It’s as easy as opening your mouth or moving your fingers.

        I say that if you can convince enough people that grass is purple, though it take generations of repeating the lie, then grass becomes purple because it is accepted to be so by more people than it is not. Any one who insists that grass is green (no doubt a conservative) can be branded as a colorophobic bigot. He or she can then be marginalized, ostracized, criticized for a fool, persecuted, and eventually even murdered for their view, should the majority decide that colorophobics should be killed.

        This is the bedrock assumption and principle of socialism, Nazism, Communism, Totalitarianism and any other political system wherein the people are not free to think. Liberals love it because it relieves them of the necessity of thought or responsibility for individual conceptualizing.

        As one liberal hero, Martin Luther King Jr. noted: “Nothing pains some people more than having to think.”

  • Joe_K

    If more people were carrying guns when this shooting happened, odds are that fewer people would have been shot. Then again, the average liberal will find that absurd, as they do anything accurate, truthful, honest, and fundamentally right.

  • jopa

    Newsflash;One of Jared Lee Roughners professors claim the shooter to be a Coservative assassin that smokes pot and doesn’t write very well.

    • Joe_K

      Uh… Conservative and pot smoker go together about like a mustard and jelly sandwich. A person can be one or the other, but a true conservative would rather face life head on than face it in a cloud. An unhinged person might seem to be both, but smoking pot is not a conservative minded thing to do.

      • barbm

        what utter rubbish. how much beer and booze do you drink? what’s the difference if you use alcohol or pot to distort reality? and what’s wrong with using either to calm down from a day at work and a long drive home in rush hour traffic? conservatives believe that, if you want to smoke pot, do it as long as you don’t hurt anybody in the process. it’s the govt’s war on its own people who cause the danger by keeping it illegal. if it could be bought from the liquor store, juan down the street wouldn’t be selling it.

        • Joe_K

          Obviously, a liberal. I made an observation, you discounted my comment as if it were trash (rubbish). You no doubt are someone I am glad I do not know in “real life”

          I am blessed

        • Joe_K

          Oh, I forgot to mention, you attacked my personal character and my ability to deal with reality. Obviously, a self righteous, sanctimonious, arrogant liberal has spotted an opportunity.

    • DaveH

      References, Jopa?

  • jopa

    Conservative

    • thawtmonger

      NEWSFLASH…..hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah!So…you actually trust that the news will bring you correct informative reasoning?

  • rodney burke

    IT’S past time a whole gang of us Americans get out the big stick and apply it liberally to the diseased media and the diseased party who call this act of murder the fault of their opponents. What we have is a disease called liberalism which cannot place blame where it belongs. If this congresswoman was a republican, he would not have attacked her. There is something inherently wrong when the demoncraps can’t take responsibility for anything but instead place blame on those who are NOT responsible and they know it.

    Michael Savage is right, liberalism is a mental disorder and the demoncraps should be in therapy and NOT in congress!

    • Joe_K

      “There is something inherently wrong when the demoncraps can’t take responsibility for anything but instead place blame on those who are NOT responsible and they know it.”

      It occurs to me that the first man, Adam, was a liberal. NO wonder the world is screwed up.

  • Delores Smith

    BOB LIVINGSTON – A TERRIFIC ARTICLE – THANK YOU…
    In the shooter’s backyard is a memorial in a tent. It is an altar with a skull in a bowl, hemp, candles, and a large bag of unused potted soil on the left side of the altar. Arizona has the Drug Cartel all over the state. The mark of the Drug Cartel is beheading. They apparently like skulls. The product of the Cartel is Hemp that they bring in from Mexico. Sheriff Dupnik, the news reported that the shooter’s Dad took down the altar. Have you, Sheriff Dupnik, had the items and altar forensically tested, or did you ignore the backyard. Did you dig in the yard for skulls? It may be that you are too busy attacking everybody to look for evidence. Newspapers have photos of the altar. Was this shooter connected to the Drug Cartel? Are people who behead others insane? Obama had signs put up all over Arizona, “DANGER, DRUG CARTEL COULD BE IN THIS AREA.” Thanks, Obama, we can protect ourselves. Signs are not enough, and you cannot instill fear in Americans. On October 10, 2010, an illegal man living in Chandler, AZ was beheaded. The police said that he was probably working for the Cartel, because the beheading is their mark.
    Delores Smith Delores109@cox.net

    • Angel Wannabe

      I agree, Deloris, this tragedy took place in this sheriffs own jurisdiction, he dropped the ball on this loon, more than any rherotic caused it.

  • PEH

    1st Amendment in the ‘crosshairs!’
    After reviewing all of the current listed comments, it appears to me as if the 1st Amendment and its application is alive, well and ‘kickin!’
    Don’t you love America and this media outlet!
    Thanks!!

    • Joe_K

      Yeah, well, read’em while you can.

      LOL

  • DaveH
    • DaveH

      Okay,
      I must admit after looking at the videos in the 5 provided links that there is somebody out there who makes Flashdunce look normal.

      • independant thinker

        DaveH, if a I could somehow collect all the sh!t flash and his minions post here and compost it I could double my garden and still never have to buy fertilizer again. On the other hand compost made from their manure would most likely poison the ground for a hundred years or more so I guess I will have to pass on that idea.

        • DaveH

          Don’t worry about it, Thinker. Before long, Flashdunce and his minions will have outlawed your garden.

  • Earl, QUEENS, NY

    Jared Loughner is NOT a mainstream conservative or moderate, but a leftwing nut job who perhaps thinks Giffords is not liberal enough!! Of course, when tragedies like this occur the left always blames conservatives and accuses them of hate mongering. But which side is to blame for hate mongering?? Why is it okay for leftwingers and democraps to wish death on Rush Limbaugh, GW Bush, Sarah Palin and other republicans/conservatives?? As for the anti-government attitude or sentiment, why not put the blame where it belongs – on today’s leftwing statist Democrap Party?? that’s the party which for the past few years has been governing much against the will of the people, ignoring the Constitution and destroying America and its financial system. As for gun control, the “Never let a good crisis go to waste” crowd loves to exploit every tragedy of this kind. They always blame the inanimate object instead of the miscreant who’s responsible for the crime. They never admit that no gun control law will prevent such tragedies, nor the fact that had there been more armed citizens there, one of them could’ve stopped the nut job and prevented some of the needless deaths!! Furthermore, as for “Never let a good crisis go to waste”, how can we be sure that these leftwing anti-gun anti-2nd Amendment fascists are not behind the scenes and involved in the tragedies?? Seriously, I’ve heard of at least one similar tragedy in which the nutjob, prior to committing suicide, said something like: ‘this is what legal guns are all about!!’ Hmmmm!! That sounds like something we hear from the leftwing anti-gun anti-2nd Amendment fascists after such a tragedy. Think about it. With these leftwing statists, anything’s possible!!

    • thawtmonger

      Ever notice that the liberal finger points away from government,and toward the citizenry? Is this indicative of a sickened public? Is this a problem that was brought on by the weight of todays modern life? No. It was violence directed at policy. Who this guy was inside,is not behind his malevolent behavior. It is the politician that he was angry at. The nearest one he could find. It wouldnt have mattered if it were Sarah Palin or Barney Frank. He is likely perturbed at the policies of todays govenment officials. Something that goes unspoken in the light of argument about who he is,and not why he’s angry. This is the fatal error on part of the politician. The arrogance of thinking that his mental state caused him to shoot these unfortunate people,and that he wasnt clearly trying to assasinate an official,is breathtaking. But this is the way to keep you from realizing the truth. Keep you arguing left and right and you will fail to notice the truth as it slides under your rug for easy ignorance. Dont fall victim to the slight of hand. Pay attention to the man behind the curtain. It will separate you from the blind someday.

      • Angel

        So, the victims had it coming, eh? You wrote: “It was violence directed at policy…. It is the politician that he was angry at.” The freedoms that many of us embrace allow for the open debate of ideas. When this is ridiculed – actually demonized – there are tragic circumstances. As a famous conservative once said: “Some in this country, in their feverish search for group acceptance, are ready to endorse tumultuous confrontation as a substitute for debate, and the most illogical and unfitting extensions of the Bill of Rights as protections….”

        If you fear you are the victim of politics or government, throw off the dogma and agenda of the ultrarich – whether they are D’s or R’s or not. (And that means rejecting the Tea Parties too – 75% of their funds came from billionaires.)

        • barbm

          as a tea partyer, i don’t give one darn where the money comes from. i care what the candidates believe and how they behave once we’ve got them in office. if they cow tow to the rich, out they go next time. much money may come from the rich but, by far, most of the voters are not.

      • Karolyn

        The kid just hated her. End of story!

    • Karolyn

      You crack me up! :-)

  • 45caliber

    I seriously doubt that someone saying something on radio or tv did anything to get this murderer to commit his crime. This is only an attempt by the politicians to take over more control of our lives.

    • http://www.personalliberty.com Angel

      One example: Glenn Beck: “I’m thinking about killing Michael Moore, and I’m wondering if I could kill him myself, or if I would need to hire somebody to do it. No, I think I could. I think he could be looking me in the eye, you know, and I could just be choking the life out — is this wrong?”

      http://mediamatters.org/research/200505180008

      • barbm

        your point? i watch people get killed night after night on tv, but i don’t follow their lead. nobody got killed because of beck’s statement. i’d like to shut beck up permanently, but God doesn’t allow that. i’m a tea partyer who hates beck and palin. but, i’d fight for their right to be the wolves in sheep’s clothing that they are. i didn’t hear beck say that because i will never again listen to anything he has to say since he sabotaged our texas tea party candidate for governor to support the rino perry.

        • Angel

          Barbm wrote: “i’d like to shut beck up permanently, but God doesn’t allow that. i’m a tea partyer who hates beck and palin.” Me too! I think we’d win in a landslide in 2012 if they took an extended vacation that year! You know – their hearts are in the right place: they love this great country and believe in our Constitution. I just think they go too far with the rhetoric.

      • DaveH

        No doubt taken out of context. That quote was from May 17, 2005. Five years ago! Liberals have been trying to silence Glenn Beck for as long as I can remember Glenn Beck. Yes, he has an unfortunate habit of saying things in jest that he shouldn’t have said, thus setting himself up for Liberals to take his words out of context. I cringe when he does that. But he does also bring a lot of factual events to light that the MSM regularly ignores.
        Beck’s defense:
        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d4KYLKnGTOg

  • bob wire

    I not deliberately following you 45, ~ it’s seems to be simply happenstance of late. Sometimes I agree with you and sometimes I don’t.

    In this case, I don’t. I think that it would be hard to live in today’s world and not be expose to all the many forms of media that demand our attention.

    ~ Not all, but some of it is very tainted and we are left helpless to do much about it. ~ It’s left up to the individual to discriminate and it’s as it should be for a nation of free people. ~ We can cut it off, change the channel, not buy it, not support it.

    And that is exactly what has happened here and we all reap the rewards of such personal freedoms.

    I know that I’m not addressing any cure but I am highlighting a cause and effect.

    I don’t believe there is a cure and retain personal freedoms.

  • http://www.yahoo.com George Mc Grath

    Politicians have raised themselves from public servant to the grandiose plataeu of superior elitist akin to a kingship. This is part of their corruption and they just can’t help themselves’
    I am not trying to put down the severe tradegy in Arizona, especially the 9yr old child, but I am mighty tired of public servants demanding special attenion not deserved as they are not the victems but yet they crave the headlines, these severe ego maniacs, bloated self important people who seldom worked an honest day in their life. They prosper by connections just as the Mafia did in the past, I wash your back your wash mine attitude. Me? I am sick of it as most of us are, being victims of politics. Politically correct be damned!

  • barbm

    in the almost 235 years since our republic’s formation, there have only been 3 reps killed on the job. a lot died from natural causes, accidents, and one from his deranged brother killing him. but only 3 have been assassinated. 235 years and thousands of reps. i think that’s amazing considering some of the stupid things our reps have done to hurt us and our country. this was a nut job with leftist leanings who was angry that she didn’t vote for pelosi for minority speaker. this is no excuse for the govt to infringe on our liberties and rights guaranteed by our constitution. “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.” yet they’re trying to silence the press and political rhetoric and stop us from peaceably assembling by saying not at funerals. it’s in poor taste, in my not so humble opinion, to cause a scene at a funeral, but i’d fight for the right of those who want to show their behinds to do that. if you give them an inch, they’ll take a mile, and next thing you know, we’re slaves to the govt.

    • Angel

      “this was a nut job with leftist leanings who was angry that she didn’t vote for pelosi for minority speaker”

      Are you kidding? You got a source for that or are you just another “make it up as I go along” poster here?

      • barbm

        it’s all over the net. it was on our local left leaning mainstream media tv stations. got your head in the sand or just can’t read?

        • Karolyn

          “all over the net.”??? I sure haven’t heard anything about it, and I watched the news this morning, and I haven’t seen it on Yahoo News or in the Wall Street Journal. There has been no mention of that information found in his writings. Only the wacked out writing of a mentally ill kid. Where did you see it on the net – A right wing extremist blog?

          • barbm

            it was one reason posited by the media right after it happened. it’s there but buried under 4 days of more recent stories. it doesn’t matter why he did it. now, they’re saying he couldn’t hold a job, got kicked out of college, lost all his friends, couldn’t find a woman, etc. what’s the difference, he’s CRAZY/DEPRESSED/BI-POLAR/SCHIZOPHRENIC/ad infinitum – choose one or more, add one or more. he’s a nut job who doesn’t need a reason. based on new info, i can’t see why we need to change anything over it. the points i was making was 1) he’s crazy so don’t blame the gun, the right, the tea party, palin, rush, beck, or anybody or anything else. and 2), since we don’t know why and it doesn’t matter because he’s crazy, congress has no right to choose from the many reasons and use their guesses about his actions to take away our constitutional rights.

          • Karolyn

            You’re right, barb

        • Vicki

          Definalty all over the net. But the comment about the representative not voting for Pelosi has been scrubbed from many of the sites even though the comment appears in the short comments in googles list of the sites.

          I used the search terms “shooter was angry that she didn’t vote for pelosi” without quotes around it.

          This is the first site that I found that had not scrubbed the info about pelosi
          http://randysright.wordpress.com/2011/01/10/wow-this-girl-did-her-homework-abhorrent-behavior-by-the-left-on-a-tragic-day-for-america/

  • Raggs

    How do people get so freaking stupid to trust the government before trusting themselves?

    You liberals / progressives are sick, empty headed fools!

    • bob wire

      I think the same thing could be asked of you, as it seems to apply.

      You want to approach us as a “TEAM” and not as a individual.

      How about coming here as an individual with your banter.

  • Karolyn

    BLA, BLA, BLA, BLA, BLA. Geez. This is getting really ridiculous. Some crazy kid went on a mad rampage. End of story!!!!!!!!!! There is no one that can make sense out of the ravings of a lunatic. I know; I lived with one.

    I also might add that even though I don’t like Palin, I think her response was good.

  • Dee

    These people that are blaming everyone else for the shooting is just like obummer. He blames everyone else for his mistakes.
    Put the blame where it belongs–on Jerod Loughner.

    • DaveH

      Isn’t it amazing, Dee, that the Liberals try to absolve the actual perpetrator but have no trouble putting it on people who didn’t do the crime? So we should punish the people that didn’t commit the crime, but not the people that did? Only in Liberal La La Land does that make any sense.

  • American Citizen

    Using the same logic the liberals use, “Mein Kampf” and “The Communist Manifesto” should be banned as those were what influenced Loughner.
    A friend of his has said he, Loughner, was not political in any way, that he hated TV and talk radio and didn’t listen to them. He had it in for that Congresswoman since 2007 when she couldn’t answer his stupid question.

  • JeffH
  • JeffH

    Ask a liberal if the truth hurts? If anyone cares to see some real unhinged hate from the liberal left then go no further than this link.

    I’m reposting this from another Personal Liberty thread.
    http://michellemalkin.com/2011/01/10/the-progressive-climate-of-hate-an-illustrated-primer-2000-2010/

    The progressive “climate of hate:” An illustrated primer, 2000-2010

    PALIN HATE…On the pages of Getty Images featured a image of a man pointing a fake gun at the head of a Sarah Palin likeness sitting next to a cardboard cutout of her daughter in a museum display.
    “ABORT Sarah Palin” stickers. Palin-hating artwork designating her an “M.I.L.P.” (Mother I’d Like to Punch). Hat tip: Edge of Forever. Madonna bashing Sarah Palin and shrieking “I will kick her ass:”
    Sandra Bernhard bashing Sarah Palin and cursing her head off with hate warping her crazed face and then trying to defend her Palin-will-get-gang-raped joke.

    Then there is the Democratic Underground’s latest thread for commenters to come up with nicknames and posters to slime GOP Alaska Gov. Sarah Palin — and then to “spread [them] all over the ‘net.” There are now nearly 100 filthy, hate-filled responses and counting. Among the “nicer” entries: “Cruella,” “Gidget,” “Governor Jesus Camp,” “VPILF,” “Fertilla the Huntress,” “Iditabroad,” and “KILLER PYSCHO FUNDIE BITCH FROM HELL!!”

    • DaveH

      That is no secret, Jeff, to anybody who really pays attention to what Liberals do rather than what they say they do.

    • Joe_K

      “Ask a liberal if the truth hurts?”

      The answer to that, as someone once noted (I do nor recall who) is that the truth is no more detrimental to a liberal than holy water and crucifixes are detrimental to a vampire.

      It doesn’t just hurt them, it kills them.

  • JeffH

    Columnist John Hawkins-Violent Liberal Hate Rhetoric: Fifteen Quotes

    Conservatives have long since been willing to stand up and say that they oppose political violence and threats coming from our side – as well we should. So, when will Nancy Pelosi, Harry Reid, and Barack Obama finally stand up and condemn the ocean of violence and hatred being spewed by their friends, supporters.

    “A spoiled child (Bush) is telling us our Social Security isn’t safe anymore, so he is going to fix it for us. Well, here’s your answer, you ungrateful whelp: [audio sound of 4 gunshots being fired.] Just try it, you little b*stard. [audio of gun being cocked].” — A “humor bit” from the Randi Rhodes Show

    “I want to go up to the closest white person and say: ‘You can’t understand this, it’s a black thing’ and then slap him, just for my mental health” — New York city councilman Charles Barron

    “..And then there’s Rumsfeld who said of Iraq ‘We have our good days and our bad days.’ We should put this S.O.B. up against a wall and say ‘This is one of our bad days’ and pull the trigger.” — From a fundraising ad put out by the St. Petersburg Democratic Club

    “I believe in ecoterrorism.” — James Cameron

    “…In an ideal world, American consumers could be convinced to do the right thing through an appeal to logic with public service messages like the ‘What Would Jesus Drive?’ TV campaign, but the kind of people who would buy a car that increases the risk to other motorists in an accident can’t be reasoned with. They’re selfish and stupid. It’s unfortunate that drivers must worry that their SUVs are being targeted by insulting stickers and Molotov cocktails, but one thing’s for sure: It couldn’t be happening to a more deserving group of people.” — Ted Rall winks at ecoterrorism

    “F*** God D*mned Joe the God D*mned Motherf*cking plumber! I want Motherf*cking Joe the plumber dead.” — Liberal talk show host Charles Karel Bouley on the air.

    “Republicans don’t believe in the imagination, partly because so few of them have one, but mostly because it gets in the way of their chosen work, which is to destroy the human race and the planet. Human beings, who have imaginations, can see a recipe for disaster in the making; Republicans, whose goal in life is to profit from disaster and who don’t give a hoot about human beings, either can’t or won’t. Which is why I personally think they should be exterminated before they cause any more harm.” — The Village Voice’s Michael Feingold, in a theater review of all places

    (Rush Limbaugh)” just wants the country to fail. To me that’s treason. He’s not saying anything different than what Osama Bin Laden is saying. You might want to look into this, sir, because I think Rush Limbaugh was the 20th hijacker but he was just so strung out on Oxycontin he missed his flight. … Rush Limbaugh, I hope the country fails, I hope his kidneys fail, how about that?” — Wanda Sykes

    “You guys see Live and Let Die, the great Bond film with Yaphet Kotto as the bad guy, Mr. Big? In the end they jam a big CO2 pellet in his face and he blew up. I have to tell you, Rush Limbaugh is looking more and more like Mr. Big, and at some point somebody’s going to jam a CO2 pellet into his head and he’s going to explode like a giant blimp. That day may come. Not yet. But we’ll be there to watch. I think he’s Mr. Big, I think Yaphet Kotto. Are you watching, Rush?” — Chris Matthews

    “I have zero doubt that if Dick Cheney was not in power, people wouldn’t be dying needlessly tomorrow….I’m just saying if he did die, other people, more people would live. That’s a fact.” — Bill Maher

    “If I got (Condi Rice) a— on camera, I would put my Mars Air Jordans so far up her butt that the Mayo Clinic would have to remove them.” — Spike Lee

    “O&A – ‘Condoleezza Rice’”
    Charlie – “I’d love to f— that b*tch dude” (laughter)

    Charlie – “She’s the F—in man”

    O&A – “yeah”

    Charlie – “I’d F…that b*tch….”

    O&A – “I just imagine the horror in Condoleezza Rice’s face….”

    - “(laughter) ….. as she realizes what’s going on”

    - “…as you were just holding her down and F’n her.”

    Charlie – “punch her all the F’n face, shut the F— up b*tch”

    O&A – “that’s exactly what I meant” (laughter in background)

    Charlie – “you know F— it …. and George Bush wife? I’d F— that b*tch to death” — “Shock Jocks” Opie & Anthony talk rape & violence with their guest “Homeless Charlie.”

    “For those of you who do, as a matter of principle, oppose war in any form, the idea of supporting a conscientious objector who’s already been inducted [and] in his combat service in Iraq might have a certain appeal. But let me ask you this: Would you render the same support to someone who hadn’t conscientiously objected, but rather instead rolled a grenade under their line officer in order to neutralize the combat capacity of their unit?” — University Professor Ward Churhill on supporting soldiers who frag their officers

    “Drudge? Aw, Drudge, somebody ought to wrap a strong Republican entrail around his neck and hoist him up about six feet in the air and watch him bounce.” — Liberal radio host, Mike Malloy

    “I know how the ‘tea party’ people feel, the anger, venom and bile that many of them showed during the recent House vote on health-care reform. I know because I want to spit on them, take one of their ‘Obama Plan White Slavery’ signs and knock every racist and homophobic tooth out of their Cro-Magnon heads.” — The Washington Post’s Courtland Milloy

    • JeffH

      No doubt there are still some deniers that will hold the line that comments like “lock-n-load” and “keep some powder dry” is really the hate speech that drove someone like Loughner off to commit his despicable act of violence.

    • DaveH

      Thanks, Jeff. Good post.

  • chuckb

    jeffh

    it appears to me that the conservative’s spend more time defending themselves than they do attacking. the people that believe their insinuations are usually the ones voting for them so it doesn’t make sense to me to care what they say.
    the one thing i find curious, they seem to be spending all their time on the shooting of the congresswoman and pretty much ignoring the other people killed and she still lives.
    republican congressman king from new york is pushing legislation to ban all guns within a 1000 ft area from political events such as the one saturday, just leave it to the rino’s to come up with gun control legislation. the liberals would love this stepping stone.

    • JeffH

      chuckb, it is important to point out the sheer hypocrisy of the liberal left and the media, and not as a defense mechanism.

      As for Ryan’s proposing new legislation, he’s obviously acting on his emotions…Boehner has already commented the new gun legislation isn’t the answer to the problem and he won’t support any new gun legislation.

      • barbm

        anybody else sick of seeing boehner cry? he cried again today. we sure as heck don’t want him for potus!! every other country would assume he’s a woman. just saying…

        • crystal

          I thought he was having sinus problems.

      • kate8

        JeffH – Don’t you remember that, last year, Hillary promised the world-government crowd at one of the G meetings or something in Europe, that they would have our guns in a year? They are a bit overdo, I think.

        Anyway, they’ve seen that it’s not so easy to convince us. They need events to convince us to see things their way. And Obama has said that if Congress doesn’t do it, then he will.

        We mustn’t underestimate the lengths they are willing to go to get these last items through – restricted speech, and end to talk-radio, taking away guns…and that’s just the beginning.

        If we know exactly what they are doing, and don’t react emotionally with fear, we won’t fall for the next event, or the one after that…They are wearing us down. It’s up to us to hold firm.

        • http://gunner689 gunner689

          They just may get our guns, but not as they expect.

  • Walt

    As I see it with the anti gun nuts, they never served in the military. Have big mouths but no balls and will hide behind a skirt. As far a new gun laws, why not use the seventy thousand + already in place. People die all over the world. Where are you anti-American gun nuts then or the scumbag politician? Big bark but no Bite! Belittle to Mute! All you anti gun nuts can more to whatever commie country you want, I will not miss any of you(we’ll see how fast you pack your bags). I am American. I take the good with the bad and America is still Great. Even with the freeloaders, scumbag politicians ripping you off, the Un-American in the white house, anti gun nuts and the muslims.

    • crystal

      One thing anti-gun people don’t comprehend is that criminals will get guns regardless of any anti-gun laws.

      • DaveH

        Oh, I think they know that Crystal. Their goal is simply to disarm the people, so the people in power can walk on us without fear. Imagine, as brazen as they are now, just how bad it will get when they no longer need to fear us?

  • http://marcum@wildblue.net coal miner

    Attention:

    FBI report:

    Although environmental extremists were responsible for nearly all the domestic terrorist attacks between 2002 and 2005, right-wing extremists are still considered the most dangerous to the United States, says the SPLC. Right-wing extremist attacks are planned to target people, and if successfully carried out, intend to kill many civilians. Ecoterrorist attacks, on the other hand, aim to sabotage the infrastructure of businesses and corporations that endanger the earth; the groups do not aim to kill massive amounts of people.

    The FBI says right-wing extremists have the potential to carry out the most deadly domestic attacks since they have a tendency to amass weapons and explosives and have “a propensity for violence.” Increasingly, right-wing terrorism threats come from what the FBI calls the “lone wolf” terrorist in the FBI Strategic Plan 2004-2009. Such an individual is a fringe member of a formal extremist group but acts alone instead of carrying out a group-planned attack. Despite limited funding, solo attacks can be deadly and are difficult to detect.

Bottom
close[X]

Sign Up For Personal Liberty Digest™!

PL Badge

Welcome to PersonalLiberty.com,
America's #1 Source for Libertarian News!

To join our group of freedom-loving individuals and to get alerts as well as late-breaking conservative news from Personal Liberty Digest™...

Privacy PolicyYou can opt out at any time. We protect your information like a mother hen. We will not sell or rent your email address to anyone for any reason.