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“Unintentional” Co-Conspirators

January 11, 2011 by  

“Unintentional” Co-Conspirators

I wanted to discuss how years of inflammatory, often violent, rhetoric from the far Left walked us all right up to the moment in Tucson where liberal hate led to liberal violence in one horrific afternoon. I wanted to point out how the incessant drumbeat of rage from Democrat Party outlets like MSNBC and Daily Kos was laying a welding torch to the gunpowder of Leftist anger. I wanted to expound on the fact that the endless “Worst person in the world” ranting from MSNBC’s Zen master of hate Keith Olbermann, with the defamatory efforts of his “mini-me,” the appallingly angry Rachel Maddow, would ultimately drive one of their brainless acolytes to the edge of insanity.

But none of that really matters. Today, a husband sits anxiously next to his wife’s hospital bed. Today, a family is preparing to bury their husband and father. Children have to say goodbye to parents. Parents have to say goodbye to children.

Nonetheless, while the Democrat Party urges its supplicant media to find a way to pin the murder of six people on Sarah Palin, the Tea Party and the GOP by proxy; the facts reveal a vastly different picture. It’s a picture of the ultimate expression of Leftist rage, fanned by monsters like Markos Moulitsas, raging idiots like Olbermann, violent union thugs from the Service Employees International Union (SEIU), and possibly the anti-semitic roaring of characters like former President Jimmy Carter:

While Representative Gabrielle Giffords (D-Ariz.) was clinging to life, Democrat Party shill Paul Krugman showed up on television to offer:

“..violent acts are what happen when you create a climate of hate. And it’s long past time for the GOP’s leaders to take a stand against the hate-mongers.”

I’ll presume that Krugman didn’t mean statements like this one:

“If you get hit, we will punch back twice as hard…”

Or this one:

“I’m itching for a fight.”

Or this one:

“If they bring a knife to the fight, we bring a gun…”

All of the preceding statements were made by homicidal terrorist William Ayers’
friend, Barack Obama, since he won the Presidential election of 2008.

Nonetheless, forget all of it. Forget Olbermann’s lunatic yammering on
the Democrats’ “news” channel, MSNBC. Set aside Daily
Kos
and their violent vitriol:

Daily Kos

Peruse that inset, then tell me again how appalling Sarah Palin’s ads
are. Daily Kos also scrubbed a “diary” by an acolyte who
calls himself “Boy Blue” which made repeated references to a Congresswoman
being “dead.” Make sure you keep in mind Daily Kos owner
Moulitsas’ endorsement of Islamofascist terrorism when you do.

Shuffle the SEIU’s assaults on Obamacare opponents to the back of your
mind. Lock away your images of the NAACP standing up for cop killers like Troy
Davis. And consider this:

Jared Lee Loughner appears to be Unabomber-crazy. While the Democrat Party trots
out the big media and blogosphere guns to pin the Tucson tragedy on conservatism,
their macabre effort to profit from human suffering and death rings as hollow
as an Ed Schultz “voter fraud is ok when it benefits the Democrat Party”
monologue.

The Left has developed a cottage industry built on hatred. And while the nation
united in mourning the loss of the victims of Loughner’s murderous rage, they
left the door to their asylum wide open.

But amidst the cacophony of liberal rage, I’ll simply say:

Good night, sweet Christina Green. You deserved better.

Ben Crystal

is a 1993 graduate of Davidson College and has burned the better part of the last two decades getting over the damage done by modern-day higher education. He now lives in Savannah, Ga., where he has hosted an award-winning radio talk show and been featured as a political analyst for television. Currently a principal at Saltymoss Productions—a media company specializing in concept television and campaign production, speechwriting and media strategy—Ben has written numerous articles on the subjects of municipal authoritarianism, the economic fallacy of sin taxes and analyses of congressional abuses of power.

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  • Jeremy Leochner

    I disagree with Mr Crystal on this matter. I feel the shooting of Congresswomen Giffords and the murder of six innocent people in Tuscon was ultimatly an expression of a distorted mind, a cowardly extremist, and the horrific consequences that result when extremist action matches extremist rhetoric. I believe that while this mans reading of extremist literature helped contribute to his deranged fantasies I do not feel it is a reflection of any sort of realistic political ideology. I believe that rhetoric of an extremist nature which supposedly contributed to this crime is something applicable to all sides of the political spectrum be they Democrat, Republican, Conservative, Liberal, Libertarian, Progressive, Left or Right. I believe people from all sides in recent months and years have used slanderous and bias words to insult opponents and have resulted in turning politics into a no comprimise, no solution atmosphere. Wether that contributed to the actions of such an obviously deranged man I do not know. But I will say two things. The first as I said I believe extremism can be blamed on many so I strongly disagree with those who seek to blame this incident on Sarah Palin and her supporters. That being said I feel I must criticize Mr Crystal for choosing to denounce slanderous and inflammatory rhetoric while using it himself.

    • Kinetic1

      You are so right, Jeremy. The violent rants from all sides has grown to dangerous proportions ad no one group has the market cornered. Yes, BlueBoy made some awful statements regarding his opposition to his representative’s choices, but here on this very sight I read one persons idea of sitting on a roof top, picking off gays with his rifle. All this hatred and vitriol may get you the attention you crave, and it may make for good ratings, but it does nothing good for our nation.

      • dstk

        Yes, they are part of the problem, not the solution!!!

        • eddie47d

          Then Steve(below) why does Ben blame everything on the left.We can see with our own eyes what he is full of and we are not making things up.

          • http://yahoo.com chas

            Because EVERYTHING that is WRONG with this society ORIGINATES/METASTASIZES/MURDERS from “the LEFT”(heretofore referred to as BSLN or BLUE-SHIRTED LIBERAL NAZIZ)!!….All who post here need to understand that “slow Eddie”, Dennis-BOZO, and Kinetic-PHART are LIARS &do NOT care about DISCUSSION….They ONLY care about SILENCING DISCOURSE( ie: first amendment AND SECOND AMENDMENT[ aka: ...fear..])….We MUST continue to call them out on their LIES( see “Sultry Sarah”/ “Mama Grizzly” response to the BSLN in the lamestream media)…The use of DENIAL( #ONE BSLN psychological defense mechanism to SILENCE civil discourse), PROJECTION(def: painting the opponent as EXACTLY what YOU are[#TWO PSYCHO defense mechanism to SILENCE opposition]), and EQUIVALENCE(painting ONE DESPICABLE ACT as equal to a NORMAL response/act[#3 PSYCHO defense]), along with non-sequiters and changing the sublect , are used against ALL of you to respond to their LIES!!…STOP IT!!…If you MUST respond, respond knowing thar they care NOT about TRUTH/JUSTICE and chastise them accordingly…..E/D/K/….GO BACK TO DAILY KOS WHERE THERE ARE PEOPLE OF YOUR SICK PSYCHE!!…You have been OUTED here!!…..

      • Steve

        Hey dumbass, big difference between “I heard a guy on a blog say something hateful” and hearing the hateful and violent come from people in the media. Keep deflecting the facts, maybe some of the gullible masses may believe you but others won’t. It’s shameful to blame this terrible event on Sarah Palin, Glen Beck and the “Right”. Shameful and blatant lies.

        • Jeremy Leochner

          Steve your absolutly right. Im just saying its just as wrong to try and blame it on the left or liberals as I believe Mr Crystal is.

          • Vicki

            Apparently you should re-read the article. Mr. Crystal is pointing out that the liberal media is going out of its way to blame any and all conservatives IN SPITE of the evidence that Mr Crystal presented that the hate speech is coming from the LIBERAL press and liberals in high and or prominent places. His story is all and only about hypocrisy and how stunningly obvious it is.

          • Dogma-Free

            Oh, Ben…again, trying to spread disinformation among your already misinformed cohorts.

            Go ahead and spin again, Vanna!

            Here are some more quotes to add:

            “Don’t retreat, reload!”

            - Sarah Palin, former Governor of Alaska

            =========================================

            “If this Congress keeps going the way it is, people are really looking toward those Second Amendment remedies.”

            - Sharron Angle, former member of the Nevada State Assembly

            ========================================

            “If ballots don’t work, bullets will.”

            - Joyce Kaufman, Radio host, Tea Party activist

            ========================================

            “The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants.”

            - Currently serving United States Congresswoman from Minnesota, leader of the Tea Party Caucus, paraphrasing Thomas Jefferson

            ========================================

            “Sarah Palin has the crosshairs of a gun sight over our district and when people do that, they’ve gotta realize there are consequences to that action.”

            - Currently serving Congresswoman from Arizona Gabrielle Giffords

            ******************************************************************

          • JeffH

            Jeremy, I agree with your take that the rhetoric should stop from everyone, but I do see what Ben is saying…case in point…Dogma-Free immediately chases down Palin and points the blame, but fails to recognize that the Democratic strategists used these tactics as far back as the 70′s…per the words of Bob Beckel last night on Hannity and that the Democrats had targets featuered on their website for the states and candidates that they had “targeted” for defeat in 2008, it is a fairly common practice. What someone says on any blog isn’t what influences the actions of someone like Loughner who is obviously mentaly disturbed.

            We can argue all day that he said she said crap but my experience with this website is that the hate and vitriol directed at Bush, Cheney, Beck, Limbaugh, Reagan, conservatives, republicans and the right far exceeds that of any other pointed vitrolic remarks directed at the liberals and Democrats, Obama and his administration and we all know there is enough of that as it is.

            There are individuals here that search out comments and will tie violence into every word despite the context. Some are as crazy as Loughner with their excessive rants, others are just looking for a fight or a reaction or, like some, just looking to disrupt the website.

            The MSM media is probably the guiltiest of all if anybody wants to point fingers at anyone, but that won’t change anytime soon…just watch MSNBC and Keith Olberman if you can stand to listen to him.

          • kate8

            JeffH – Read Stan Smith’s link:

            http://www.eutimes.net/2011/01/top-us-federal-judge-assassinated-after-threat-to-obama-agenda/

            It’s exactly what I thought.

          • http://?? Joe H.

            Dogma,
            Here’s another quote for you. “if they bring a knife, then we will bring a gun” Stated by good ole’ president Barack Obama when he was running for office!!! I don’t know about you, but that seems a little more harsh than a map with a bullseye on it, how about it???

          • JeffH

            kate8, my, my…now is that such a surprise? I suppose it(Rolls death) was just another coincidence????

          • kate8

            JeffH – Want more?

            http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ELBY7Ha9le0&feature=player_embedded

            Why is it that, even though we know better, we want to assume that news reporting is all above board? And that our leaders (Obama?) are telling us the truth?

            We need to realize that these guys are not playing games. They are out to bring America down and destroy us. THEY ARE SERIOUS. People have been murdered right and left (no pun intended). Look at all the “suicides” when Clinton was in office.

            They have us by the shorthairs now, and they aren’t about to let us get the upper hand. We are talking about truly diabolical beings here.

          • eddie47d

            Kate 8; David Ickes sounded correct on some things but nothing but a self pitting fear monger. That man is really hung up on himself.Me,Me,Me! I’m not sure if you were trying to get a conspiracy theory by liberals against Judge John Roll either. Conjecture solves nothing but feeds the hate. Judge Roll was a conservative who stood up for the rights of immigrants and received hundreds of death threats spurred on by anti-immigrant people. A local Tucson radio talk show host asked his listeners to take on Judge Roll. So if you want a conspiracy go ask some of those who made death threats. Now that would put this incident on the conservative side and would show they are willing to attack their own. I’m against most conspiracy theories so I’m only showing you how easy it is to throw this kind of information around and make hay about it.

        • oldtimeyman

          So, who started hateful dialog and sinister threats?

          May I submit this little tidbit uttered by a communist in 1947 speaking of the United States and other Christian nations:

          “We will offer the Christian world unheard of peace overtures, and these nations, stupid and decadent, will leap at the chance to be our friends; they will willingly cooperate in their own destruction. Then, when their guard is down, and they have gone to sleep, we will smash them with our clenched fist.”
          Dmitri Manuilsky in 1947
          [Dmytro Zakharovych Manuilsky] (1883-1959) Bolshevik/Soviet Diplomat

          • Dogma-Free

            Ummm…and he is who, exactly? Plus, is that communist dude even still alive today? No, I would say he isn’t.

            So…since we’re talking about how much we all abhor violence, let’s start talking about stiffer gun laws, shall we?

            It seems a pretty obvious solution: No guns, no more shootings.

            This has been a long time coming, and I would say it’s come to a head. To ignore this would be setting a precedent, and essentially saying that you promote even more violence and the shooting and murders of innocent people.

          • Robert Smith

            Posted: “It seems a pretty obvious solution: No guns, no more shootings.”

            Really… And how do you propose to implement such a crazy idea?

            What we need is more folks working on mental health, more folks working to end the despiration that can drive people to crime, and more freedom to enjoy what is currently criminal. Prohibitions just don’t work.

            Rob

          • http://?? Joe H.

            dogma,
            what about the fact that the guy that came out of the Walgreens store and helped subdue the guy had a gun in his pocket??? He’s not a cop, just a citizen and If the jerk that did the crime HAD broken loose and got the gun that they took, the guy from walgreens could have shot him! In fact, he actually said he would have!!

          • Bus

            The reaction to the killings was a great statement of where this country is headed. The person who pulled the trigger was the responsible person (nutty or not), it isn’t society, it isn’t the rhetoric, it isn’t his poor upbringing. THE INDIVIDUAL WHO COMMITS THE CRIME IS THE ONE RESPONSIBLE FOR COMMITTING THE CRIME!
            But now we have to look around for who put him up to it? A 22 year old loner??? I’d bet his main source of news? type information was John Stewart or Colbert. I doubt very much that he listened to Limbaugh or Hannity.

        • Dick Gazinia

          Ben Crystal’s article is an astonishing attempt to twist the truth. Shameless in fact. The hate speech from Beck, Hannity, that load, Limbaugh, O’Reilly, and some of the people on this site are pushing nut jobs over the edge. … and let’s not forget Palin’s cross hairs. They should all be proud.

          The gunman was hardly a liberal

          • Robert Smith

            Posted: “The gunman was hardly a liberal”

            He is a nut case. Out of 330,000,000 there are bound to be some.

            We need to learn to recognize them before they do harm. This guy had a lot of red flags flying but nobody paid attention. It’s just like the guy at the VA school. Nobody did much about the red flags that guy flew either.

            Rob

      • DaveH

        Quite frankly, Kinetic, I can see what the right-wingers might be getting upset about. They are tired of Liberal legislators taking their hard-earned money. So, am I. But what are the left-wingers upset about? The Liberal legislators not giving enough of that taken money to them? I see the left as a bunch of spoiled children who have no concept of reality, and just want what they want, damn morality.

        • DaveH

          A Society of Criminals:
          http://mises.org/daily/4125

          • Denniso

            Sure,some leftwing people go over the line as well, but all you have to do is listen to Michael Savage and Limbaugh,among many other rightwing blabbers, and you see where the problem originated. Savage has for several yrs called Democrats/liberals ‘vermin,’mentally ill’,'cockroaches’ and more w/ Limbaugh picking up on the same thing for the past few yrs. Feminists are called ‘Feminazis’, people who care for the earth are ‘environmental wackos’….Limbaugh has taken to calling liberalism a mental disorder and that Democrats are out to destroy the country.

            Many of us think that Cheny is evil and Bush was/is and idiot,and that their actions meant harm to the country and the world,but we never said they were intentionally trying to destroy the country,just that they were money driven and power hungry. I almost feel sorry for Bush for his incompetence and his inability to speak or form a cogent thought or sentence. Almost…

            The rightwing,including the tea party,has convinced millions of people,some very unstable, that the gov’t is inherently evil and out to get them,that Obama is a traitor and illegitimate and all liberals are enemies of decency and patriotism…Obama and the liberals have a master plan to create a one world gov’t and a Muslim or Mexican U.S…that Bill Clinton had Vince Foster killed for political purposes. The tea party people marching to protest rallies w/ their guns dangling to make a show of force…what was that about if not a threat of violence? Most liberals just think that most conservatives are ill informed,confused,selfish,cheap,narrow minded,bigoted,deluded and sometimes ignorant. There is a difference between calling people dumb or selfish, and threatening violence.

          • kate8

            DaveH – Amazing how the tune has changed since it’s been shown the the shooter was a Leftist. Now, instead of all the shouting for the heads of conservatives like Sarah Palin, we now hear how we ALL need to tone down the rhetoric. That’s the Left now walking with its tail between its legs.

            Abolishing free speech is not the answer, no matter how the Left would love to use this incident to make that happen. It seems that one of the shooter’s biggest complaints was illiteracy, and the dumbing down of the English language. Well, not long ago, I listened to a discussion on the radio about how programs like phonics was destroying the beauty and meaning of our language. Gee, maybe this guy heard that, too. Does this mean we have to shut down all discussion, for fear that some deranged soul might hear it and go off?

            There have always been unbalanced people. We can’t stop them. Who knows what issues might hack them off. The Left will use every incident to further induce us to accept total control out of fear for our safety. But life has never come with guarantees, and that is just how it is.

          • HFlashman

            Kate8 … where are you xcoming up with that fiction that the shooter was a “leftist” ? I see references to that from all the wacked Righties…but no proff whatsoever. Just another lie?

          • Vicki

            Kate8 is coming up with that “fiction” from sources far more reliable than the MSM :)

            http://blogs.phoenixnewtimes.com/valleyfever/2011/01/jared_loughner_alleged_shooter.php

          • Dogma-Free

            I’d also like to see where, exactly, it has been ‘revealed’ that the shooter was a Leftist.

            haha…if it’s FAUX “news”, or even this questionable site (with its own blatantly obvious agenda), then you might as well not even bother posting it, because your source will have zero credibility.

            Besides that, it has been stated by posters here, that the murderer was into reading “Mein Kampf”, by Adolf Hitler, who himself was yet another far-right nutjob. By his actions, his love of Hitler’s work, and his obsession with guns, I’d say he had much in common with those on the political Right…not the Left, as some far-right loons/pundits would like you to believe.

          • Vicki

            And of course we have what the alleged shooter said on his youtube channel:
            ————————–
            “The Communist Manifesto” and Hitler’s “Mein Kampf” were among the favorite reading materials of Jared Lee Loughner,….(who) listed those tomes among his favorites on his YouTube channel.
            ————————–
            http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=248829

            Note I say “alleged” cause I was not there and have no real idea who shot whom. It does raise the interesting question how in Arizona so few people were armed at that incident.

          • eddie47d

            Kate 8 you have really fallen off of the apple wagon in your assumptions. Leftists have never called for the abolishment of free speech and you are dastardly ignorant for saying that. Please keep the rightwing swill out of the conversation.

          • Dan Burke

            When I first heard of the attack, I went to our other computer here in the house on Saturday. While my wife was still reading about the terrible shooting, I did a Google search to see if I could find out who the shooter was.

            So, if Mein Kampf and the Communist Manifesto is evidence of being a right wing nut, then I suppose the evidence is that this guy is right wing nut. Why is that important? Because those two are supposedly some of his favorite books.

            Strange how the rhetoric against government sounds the same whether from the right or the left. Sometimes, in the end, you really have to ask yourself if the problem is the means, and not the ends itself. For it is the means that shape the ends….

            And we don’t even really know if that is what motivated this guy. All we have our the opinions of everyone else. I have yet to read a statement by the shooter that he was “inspired” by the media on the right or the left. In fact, there is nothing to indicate that Mein Kampf or The Communist Manifesto had anything to do with this. This guy also apparently has a history with drugs and previous disagreement with the politician (over grammar?). Way too much here that we don’t know.

            I feel sad for the families affected.

            I want this man punished according to his actions, not his “hate” crimes.

            I want the current laws enforced. We do have laws to “punish” those who take another’s life. Or, at least, last I knew we did.

          • DaveH

            Vicki,
            I figure it is just a matter of time before the left points to Arizona’s carry freedom as a failure. We have that freedom, sure, but very few people that I know exercise it (unfortunately for the victims).

          • DaveH

            Also, I might add that, whether the victims are armed or not, the perpetrator, who knows what his plans are, has distinct advantage over those who are surprised.

          • Dan Burke

            Hitler was far right? Really. I thought his objection to the Communists was how they were doing things. I saw a summary once of the two philosophies point by point. They were almost identical except for stuff that related to the HOW.

            Traditional right versus left = tyranny versus anarchy. Or total government versus no government. Those of us “conservative, right wingers” typically don’t want anarchy. Rather, what we want is something just this side of no government. Enough government to maintain the Rule of Law.

            Modern right versus left = fascism versus communism. Notice that both modern forms of right versus left are total government options = tyranny. So it all depends on your “point of view.” The truth as seen from many of our modern society is that right versus left is fascism versus communism as if we are destined for one or the other and freedom is only found between them. The truth as seen from of us who have begun to learn from the past is that when you are focused on communism versus fascism you will get what you focus on. Since you focus on these two choices, you WILL get one of them. Both are tyranny. So we instead to focus on tyranny versus anarchy, the other standard for comparison. Again, both extremes are bad, but now we see a middle where there is freedom as opposed to focusing to two different faces of the same coin (tyranny).

            And when looking at history, here’s something I have learned over the past few years about fascism versus communism from history.

            Fascim appeared to have freedom. It was an illusion and you did what government told you or suffered accordingly.

            Communism appeared to have equality = everyone equally poor. In reality they still had the “haves” and “have nots.” They just had a lot more “have nots” who had a lot less than before….

            Neither choice offered freedom. We would consider both options tyranny and very left wing….

          • eddie47d

            Dan Burke; I was almost in total agreement with you until you played the leftist card at the end. You are right in saying tyranny is tyranny no matter who is taking away your freedom. Yet you failed to realize that right wingers can also take away your freedoms and push for their agenda. Hitlers hatred for Jews,Homos,left wing commies, for Aryan rights, against Jehovah Witnesses,union members and Catholics who disagreed with him put him squarely in the right wing camp. Hitler also also wanted law and order no matter who had to suffer because of it. Nixon strongly pushed that agenda. Now Stalin didn’t directly push for law and order he just sent his goons out to kill anybody who wasn’t for the Party. Evil is evil no matter who is pushing it on the populace and Hitler and Stalin are top DOGS.

          • Dan az

            For all of the lefties that dont want to admit that one of there own is responsible. I give you the facts,which is who taught him at the school and who payed for the school and the person that set the influence for his belief’s.
            http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=249429
            this is what happens when you try to change history and the way our children think.So yes I blame the schools but mostly I blame the left for their indoctrination attempts at covering up the true history of our nation by pushing their politically correct attitude instead of the truth.Look at the truth which I gave you on the site and then complain to me that its not the truth I dare you!

          • DaveH

            Eddie,
            If I was as clueless as you are, I wouldn’t be posting any comments on this board. I guess you would have to be somewhat intelligent to be embarassed by your ignorant comments:
            http://www.businessinsider.com/clyburn-free-speech-2011-1

          • eddie47d

            What’s the matter Dave H. are you afraid you can’t yell fire in a crowded theater anymore? You and you cronies will be so depressed that you can’t belittle and mock others anymore. Don’t worry Dave you will be able to make your quirky put downs and name calling so chill out.

      • http://www.kjnf.net Jimmimac

        kinetic1 please indicate where you saw a right wing rant claiming to want to kill people, or anything near that, then look again at all the the left wing deranged rhetoric the left wing loon squads rant about constantly, Obama if they bring a knife we bring a gun, so he saw the movie starring the former James Bond in the gangster movie where he told Elliot Ness if they bring a knife we bring a gun, original no, cowardly left yes!

      • Les

        Although what you say has merit, Jer, you miss the point completely. Ben is pointing out the extreme hypocrisy of the left and their political opportunism at all cost. The nutbag murderer was one of their own; a leftwing, entitlement, victim, scumsucking, leech; as are the media heads he listened to and the political form he supported. Their talking heads and leaders cry out for violence, murder, censorship and the taking of rights; then turn around and blame it on the patriots who pay the bills. It’s time for Truth!

        • Jeremy Leochner

          But Les thats the point. Mr Crystal is denouncing people on the left for inflammatory rhetoric and trying to blame this incident on conservatives or republicans. But what he is doing is basically suggesting those on the left or liberals are responisble. He even titles the article unintentional coconspirators suggesting that those on the left are somehow involved or guilty of helping bring this incident about. That kind of statment is no different then people saying Sarah Palin or conservatives are unintentional coconspirators. Mr Crystal is commiting the very action he’s criticizing.

          • Robert Smith

            And then the extreme right nut jobs take advantage of the situation.

            The Westboro Baptist Church is going to protest the funeral of the 9-year-old little girl murdered in Tucson Shooting.

            How christian of them.

            Rob

          • libertytrain

            I think perhaps Christ would be the first to be offended by calling them Christian – and I doubt if there’s a poster on this site, on either side, that holds what they do to be of Christianity.

      • Vigilant

        While the texture of the national discourse has become decidedly coarser over the last few years, it’s both premature and harmful to attribute blame to one side or another. Both sides are guilty of inflammatory rhetoric, but stoking the fires with gasoline against either the right or the left is dead wrong. Nothing of value is added to the conversation but encouragement to perpetuate the left vs. right blame game ad infinitum.

        There are perhaps more than a few people out there who are either on the edge of sanity and/or who are full blown psychopathic personalities. We don’t blame Jody Foster for the attempt on President Reagan’s life, do we?

        Mr. Crystal, your diatribe falls short in a number of areas, e.g.:

        Accountability: by implying that the left wing media shares some of the responsibility for the rampage, you are buying into the very “it takes a village” mentality that society is responsible for the catalog of ills that beset us. If you are willing to imply that, then you, sir, are no libertarian. We as individuals are responsible and accountable for our actions.

        Blame game: by jumping into the fray as soon and with as little factual basis as the MSM regarding the man’s motivation to do what he did, you are just as guilty as they of offering speculation alone as a means to inflame passions. Before you assign blame, ask the question first as to where were the immediate family and friends in this whole process. Who could have noticed his allegedly bizarre behavior but did nothing about it?

        Cognitive thinking vs. emotion: in being long on emotion and short on cautious analysis, you engage in the same sort of the behavior as the political forces you wish to demonize. In case you don’t remember, the left is often characterized as shooting from the emotional hip without a thought for intelligent substantiation that comes from rational thought.

    • dstk

      yes, you are so right.
      “That being said I feel I must criticize Mr Crystal for choosing to denounce slanderous and inflammatory rhetoric while using it himself” and he says it for profit!

    • Pathfinder

      Had this shooter been shown to be a conservative republican would you be making such disclaimers ?? I do not think so. Now that it is already known that the liberal left has been encourageing violence, you wish to tar the right with blame for what your own rhetoric has wrought. How many murderers like Bill Ayers are mentors for presidential candidates on the right ?? NONE !!

      • eddie47d

        Ben Crystal is the sick one and lays all of the blame on the left. When it’s the right who has been upfront with hateful slogans ,cross hairs,and wicked posters at least in the last 3 years. Ben ought to talk about those who want Obama taken out with their 2nd Amendment rights. Too much silence on that issue from Ben yet he brings up Bill Ayers who committed his deed 45 years ago and turned his life around. It’s okay to bring up the past but not when you are ignoring the present. Bill Ayers could have killed someone yet he didn’t and there is little excuse for his deed. Yet many on this site advocate violence against the government and are willing to kill many. Ben ought to take a long look in the mirror and be more factual in his reporting. The Rhetoric definitely needs to be toned down on both sides so are you listening Ben Crystal and Keith Olbermann.

        • thundertone

          Eddie, it’s this left against right that fuels this sort of crap…if people/politicians started telling the damn truth which lies dead in the middle between the two, we wouldn’t have this kind of problem and more unity of the people of this lazy ass and blind nation of people!!

          • Lomax

            The author of the above article is correct in what he says, however I suspect that this kid may well be the victim of recent onset schizophrenia. He is at the right for that sort of thing, and reading his writing makes me think that may well be the case. When a competent psychiatrist gets hold of him, which I hope is what happens, then maybe we will find out.

          • kate8

            I had a terrible thought. Aside from the obvious intent of the Left to villify the Right, and incite more anger against them coming from the already deliberately inflamed Left, there is another frightening implication here.

            The PTB are using the time-tested rulebook for conquest of a nation, play by play.

            What have most all the shooting sprees had in common, aside from leftist leanings of the shooter? They’ve all been mentally unbalanced and have had trouble living in society, and have taken medication.

            Who were among the first to be rounded up by socialist regimes? THE MENTALLY IMPAIRED.

            Is it possible that part of the intent of these events is to justify the rounding up of those with mental disability in the name of public safety? They are, after all, a major money drain on the social system.

            As far as I’m concerned, everything they do is suspect on many levels. They have admitted themselves that they will let no crisis go to waste when it comes to pushing their agenda.

            They have come a long way in corrupting our morality and desensitising our populace, especially the youth, toward killing those who are inconvenient.

            Obama’s following Hitler’s methodology. I believe he’s trying to set us up for the elimination of the elderly, the debilitated, the mentally impaired, and…conservatives. All who are inconvenient to them.

            Watch what the other hand is doing.

          • Vigilant

            kate8, I’m not as willing as you to jump to a conspiracy theory yet. Wackos will always be with us, and they will always do terrible things. It’s hard to imagine this mental case as anything more than a deranged nut job acting out his rage.

          • kate8

            Vigilant – Ther Germans, including the Jews, said the same kind of things. They didn’t believe anything evil was afoot, either.

            It’s time we wake up, before it’s too late. If you look deep enough you will see much to implicate that something evil is INDEED afoot.

            Don’t make the mistake of thinking it can’t happen here. Listen to the rhetoric of the leftist groups talking about Alinsky, Pivvens…about collapsing America top down, bottom up, inside out…about inciting anger toward conservative America…And don’t lose sight of the real purpose behind Obamacare.

            If we wait until we see our neighbors being hauled off, or have the civilian forces at our door, it will then be too late.

          • kate8
          • Robert Smith

            kate8 says: “Is it possible that part of the intent of these events is to justify the rounding up of those with mental disability in the name of public safety? They are, after all, a major money drain on the social system.”

            What would YOU do with those who are mentally ill? Reagan dumped them on the streets of America. Is that our solution?

            What we need is common sense where mentit isn’t a perminant stigma to have had a mental illness and made sure folks get treatment.

            So kate, if you don’t want to get them treatment, and you don’t want them on the street just what do you want?

            Rob

          • kate8

            Robert Smith – Where did I say I don’t want them to get treatment? That’s not the reason Hitler rounded them up. They were eliminated.

            Believe me, this is an issue close to my heart. I have a daughter who suffered brain damage from advanced Lyme disease before it could be diagnosed, further aggravated by fluorosis. I have tried to get her every kind of help I could, but she is an adult and has chosen to remain on medication, which takes away her beautiful personality.

            She was in a home for the mentally disabled for a time. I came to love those dear, damaged people. As many of them are on SSI, this makes them a target for removal because of the cost. Actually, they already are, because the heavy medications cause severe obesity and heart and liver damage.

            Don’t put words in my mouth or tell me how I feel. What I don’t want is for them to be hurt. I’d go first.

          • Dan az

            Hey kate
            It looks as if the true agenda is in the makings,one lone gunman and the nation will pay by taking their guns rights.
            http://www.eutimes.net/2011/01/us-congress-readies-new-gun-control-bill-in-wake-of-arizona-massacre/
            Every time there is one nut job that goes beserk they try to pass new laws to take the protection of the 2nd amendment from us.

        • crystal

          Like when Obama called Conservatives “enemies” or when Obama told Republicans to sit in the back seat. Maybe you mean when Obama made fun of the “Tea Party Patriots” by mimicking the holding of a teabag in front of other Americans where he knew he could get a good laugh because he didnt’ take the “Tea Party” seriously. Or was it when Obama refused to listen to the Republicans or let them in on meetings stating that “Their side lost the election.”

          Obama has fueled more than any one person on any side.

        • DaveH
        • always right

          Eddie, IF (big “if”) bill ayers has actually “turned his life around” will that bring back the dead cops? How is he any less a dirty commie now than he was then? He’d just chaged tactics so fools like you will love him. Eddie boy, you don’t like heated rhetoric. I think that’s great! So, since that doesn’t sing to you, let’s try this. You’re a disgusting, festering pile of leftist crap. Why don’t you go to over demoncrapic underground or the the daily kos, where you belong and leave the humans alone?

          • eddie47d

            No cops died at the hands of Ayers so that makes you a liar. If he had he would still be in prison. Your mind is poisoned and there isn’t much I can do about that so your lies must come natural. Maybe you should be more concerned about conspirator McVeigh who did kill 168 people and Federal agents. Your mind is a terrible thing to waste.

          • Robert Smith

            always right says: “How is he any less a dirty commie now than he was then?”

            What would you do with him? Are you suggesting that Americans can NEVER change their lives?

            If the alleged left “piles” can’t change what will you do with them?

            Rob

        • marvin

          eddie47d
          i think if you would open a history book,you would find this is nothing new we the american people [mabe not you]are a caring nation and give freely to all that need,you are intitled to your apinion,but not your own facts,you have a president that has said ,you disagree with me i will get in your face,reward your friends and punish your enimys. repubs can rie in back of buss[most repubs are white],cops are stuped,just looking for who,s ass to kick,i am a citizen of the world,you bring a knife i bring a gun,i won set down and shut up,to your way of thinking lincoln,the kennedy bros,reagan ,the list goes on ,is was all right wing people like palin beck hanity fault,you just can not fix stuped people ,that open mouth and insert foot then start blameing others ,if their were a poster boy for abortion,you would be it

        • kate8

          The lefty’s will continue to try to spin this one. It doesn’t change the fact that it is Obama’s minions who are calling the loudest for violent overthrow. What about the youth brigades he’s firing up and training in the use of military firearms as a civilian force? Against whom? Surely not the Left, so that means conservatives are in his crosshairs, as they his opposition.

          The “president” has done more to inflame, divide, and marginalize than any in history. He has stopped just short of criminalizing conservatism, and that will be next. He does everything possible to provoke outrage among those who believe in protecting and defending our Constitution.

          I love this article, Mr. Crystal, and we need to keep them coming. It’s time the Left gets called on their tactics, and gets a taste of it in return.

          The people are becoming more and more aware. Truth will prevail.

          • oldtimeyman

            Well said, Kate.

          • Stan Smith
          • kate8

            Thanks for that link. All you leftys check here for reports that the shooter was a committed LEFTIST.

          • eddie47d

            What violent overthrow Kate 8? How about some references on that? Seriously I have only heard that from the right.I haven’t heard that from the left in over 30 years. Please enlighten.

          • Dogma-Free

            Kate, you sound like you’re just about ready for a tin foil hat.

            I would say *if* there is a hidden agenda, it has nothing to do with right or left – it has to do with the classes.

            Eliminate the middle class, and then you just have the ‘haves’, and the ‘have nots’…and the ‘haves’ can then tell the ‘have nots’ what to do. Or else.

            Now, it would stand to reason why the republicans (including their minions, like FAUX “news”, and Bobby Livingston’s site and sisterhood here) would want to push this, as traditionally, the republicans have always been the party that catered to the wealthy…who, in turn, would fund the campaigns of the republican candidates who looked after them the best.

          • Robert Smith

            kate8 says: ” What about the youth brigades he’s firing up and training in the use of military firearms as a civilian force?”

            Really… Quite frankly I think that is just another example of the BIG LIE.

            BTW, have you been following the trial of an ex-cop who had a kid blow his own head off with an Uzi at his event? That wasn’t a left wing event. You can count on that.

            Rob

        • http://www.kjnf.net Jimmimac

          eddie47d whatever it is your smoking eddie its time to stop, the right has no comparison to the left wing hate that is permeating the air waves Obama is a racist and its in his book, the left wing is out of control in America, the jokes on the left actually have been calling for riots and revolutions, have you heard that on the right, I will answer that for you “NO”! So get your head straight and stop smoking the drapes!

          • eddie47d

            What is your source on that. I don’t get onto far left sites so I may have missed that. So far I haven’t heard anything about a revolution except from the right saying “Take back this country”.

          • HFlashman

            Same here Eddie. The only sites I’ve read where it has been stated time and again about ‘revolution’ and “loack and load’ etc etc are the Right wing sites where the number of nuts rival a Planeter’s peanut factory in number. And i love how they say (Kate8 etc) the shooter was a leftist, and then cite Right wing blogs as “proof’ of this.

            Heck…no one on the “left” have I seen say the guy was anything but a raving lunatic, yet the Right tries to steer off the subject that perhaps their rantings about guns, implications and insinuations about rebellion, packing guns to rallies, the hate and vitriol spewed in any discussion…has nothing to do with the atmosphere we have in this country today.

            Jeesh … and here I had thought that perhaps today, becuase of the tragedy in Tuscon…maybe that would cause a stage where social polite discourse could take place. I should have known better. They have no shame ..

        • Patriot38

          Most of those on this blog, or rant, or whatever you want to call it, remind me of the MSM. I have always marveled at how the MSM pounces upon the scene of some event, breaks into programming with their “Breaking News” and then stands there yammering about it and informing the world of everything he doesn’t know; a complete waste of time and an unnecessary interruption of the program in progress.

      • http://www.kjnf.net Jimmimac

        you hit the nail on the head Pathfinder, these lefties are always looking for ways to tar the right with their hate they can not take responsibility for their own actions, I discovered the reason, I read an article that the medical profession has discovered that liberals have a brain virus, not making this up, this virus eats the reciprocal lobe that is the part that helps with reason, right from wrong, the picture is coming clearer every day these people are truly sick!

        • Robert Smith

          J says: “reciprocal lobe”

          Ain’t no such thing.

          Why do you present us with outright lies?

          Rob

        • Dan az

          Hey jimmimac
          There is proof of that besides the obvious try this site!
          http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=116644
          So sorry lebies its a fact!

      • http://Illinois'17th Old Henry

        Pathfinder:

        Denniso’s mention of Clinton for some reason set me to thinking back to that era. I suddenly remembered what happened the last time the democrats lost their control in the House, i.e. 1994. What happened shortly after the Republicans took over in January of 1995? Oklahoma City with another whacko killing many innocent people. The democrats immediately began blaming conservatives and their “inflammaatory rehtoric”.

        Fast forward to 2010 / 2011 and what hajppens shortly after the Republicans take over the House?

        Also, I heard that during the democrat vote on choosing their leader Cong. Giford voted AGAINST Pelosi. A few days later the Congreswoman is shot. Hmmmm.

        The congresswoman had many conservative leanings and was shot by a liberal.

        Oh, and speaking of the violence instituted by conservative Sarah Palin, remember all the women and children killed by Bill Clinton at Waco? He had them shot and burned to death by our government, for their own good I guess.

        It has been stated that all this recent vitriol and violence is bad because it upsets the government. Well, our founders believed that it is a VERY GOOD thing for the politicians to be scared of the electorate rather than the people being scared of the government.

        Last week when our founding document was read into the Congressional Record the liberals went absolutely mad. Our country’s constitution to liberals is akin to holdingup a Cross in front of a vampire.

        All just food for thought.

        • kate8

          Old Henry – The day this happened, one of my first thoughts was, ‘this is a message to Congress of what would happen if any of them were entertaining notions of breaking ranks with Pelosi/Reid and actually listening to the people’.

          Ms. Gifford did that.

          It worked to bring presidents in line. We’ll see how they run.

          • kate8

            GOP already caving on spending.

          • Denniso

            You two are off the edge of sanity and into a fantasy world manufactured by people like Beck,Limbaugh and Savage. You really do need to read some real books and learn to think independently and logically. I hope you don’t vote or go out in public.

      • Jeremy Leochner

        I assure you pathfinder. Whatever this lunatics beliefs I would say the same thing to this article. My point is rhetoric is applicable to anyone and everyone from any side of the spectrum. But more to the point this isnt the time to be political and its not an issue to politicize. I criticize those who pin blame on conservatives and I criticize those who pin blame on liberals. The fault lies with the deranged killer and whatever disease or drug that made him think killing helpless innocent people was the way to change things.

    • BigBadJohn

      As I read around here all of the time

      “lock and load”

      • Robert Smith

        Remember all the advocacy to put gays on the front lines to “solve the problem?”

        Rob

        • kate8

          R S – As expected, you had to insert your favorite topic, the gay issue. Near and dear to your heart, eh?

          Sheesh.

      • DaveH

        It’s amazing to me that we’ve come to the point where it’s okay for somebody to put their hands in our pockets, but not okay for us to extract their hands. In the twisted Liberal world, that is an act of violence.

      • kate8

        Idiocy.

        The Left doesn’t even bother with metaphors. You guys just call outright for murder and assassinations.

        Do you honestly think that squashing free speech will stop unbalanced people from committing acts such as this? How, then, do you explain the terrible violence that occurs in truly oppressed countries? Crushing dissent only breeds more violence, BBJ. Including from the government itself.

        • http://Illinois'17th Old Henry

          kate8:

          Remember the books written and the movies made about assasinating George W. Bush? Where was the leftist outrage? Where was Sen. Dick Turbin with hs admonitions?

        • eddie47d

          Kate, James Earl Ray was no lefty so what in the heck are you talking about? Leftists are no more prone to violence than righties.

          • smithington

            Edddy, try putting your fist in your mouth for 47 minutes.

          • smithington

            Yes, I said 47 minutes…that should do it.

          • smithington

            1…2…3…are you being a good boy?

          • smithington

            I want you to want me…that should distract you from your foolishness. I am a Harvard graduate, please mess with me.

          • eddie47d

            No thanks Smith…,You sound a little too gay for me. “I want You”. No way dude.

      • oldtimeyman

        BBJ. Is that you? Do you remember newsman1994?

    • CJ

      Mr. Crystal, how did you work it to have the first posters to your article prove your point? The left wingers are the first to point the finger and complain when others fight back against their negative accusations. Liberals, here’s a suggestion, quit point the finger and prove you’re right by setting the example to take the higher road. Until I SEE actions of higher moral ground, I’ll know you have no desire to make the situation better, as you silently create the environment that leads to this kind of action just so you can stand back and say… “see, I told you”.

      • libertytrain

        well said.

      • Karolyn

        Jeremy did not point the finger! He pointed to EXTREMISTS on both sides! Why is it “you people” cannot see the truth when it is spelled out for you! Just the fact the Crystal pointed the finger at the left is incitement. Why did he not show the inflammatory rhetoric of conservatives as well? To keep you guys mad and keep his job! There is no need for this at all, and you are part of the problem.

        • ValDM

          Karolyn,
          Care to cite a few instances????????

          • Robert Smith

            Lock and load…

          • Robert Smith

            Actually there are doctors who are dead from the guns of the right wing.

            And then there was the Olympic bombing and bombings and bombings at clinics.

            I’ve seen some around here try to justify it because those doctors are called “murderers” by clergy and those who want to insight violence.

            Rob

          • crystal

            Abortion was created to murder black children. I don’t give a $//$%#% about abortionist.

          • Karolyn

            Whoa, Crystal! You need help!

          • eddie47d

            How many abortionists did Eric Randolph kill at the Olympics?

          • Dogma-Free

            Whoa, Crystal…way to take a thinly-veiled shot at ‘the blacks’ by insinuating that the only women getting abortions are black women…or something along those lines…

            How interesting.

        • castaway

          You are dead wrong, because I have been reading and listening to this [offensive word removed] ever since the democrats were no longer in power. They spent millions on Bush bashing, and that of the G.O.P.. They own the lamestream media and that is all you here from the media is how the right is this and that. The real problem is with the left, who cannot stand not being in the limelight. Yet you lefties stand for no morality and anything that makes you happy goes, Spend until you are broke, and then blame it on the other side,and you want everything done for you. You are all a bunch of losers. How can you be anything but, as you have no constitution, or morals.

          • Bruce D.

            What you say makes a lot of sense castaway. The left spin has been in full force for a long time. What they are saying is that their spin is the norm and anyone who opposes it is extreme and prone to incite violence. The problem is they went unopposed for too long and had their way for too many years. Now that people recognize what they have done and what they are trying to do they do not like it.

          • Robert Smith

            Hey castaway, you say: ” They spent millions on Bush bashing, and that of the G.O.P..”

            Remember how one of Chaney’s minions was CONVICTED of outing a CIA agent?

            Remember how Bush let the Binladens go immediately free after 911? No questioning or anything. How irresponsible is that?

            Trashing the economy…

            Lots of stuff was done by Bush and his cronies.

            Rob

          • Steve

            CASTAWAY, WHEN YOU’RE RIGHT, YOU’RE RIGHT!

          • http://www.kjnf.net Jimmimac

            ain’t that the truth, but the loony left will never admit it, as I saw an article that explains these deranged loons the medical profession has done mri’s on thousands of liberals and have determined that they have a brain virus that destroys the part of the brain that creates reasoning, that should tell you why we have Olberman and all the Olberman wannabe’s

          • eddie47d

            Jim..I heard just the opposite 3 weeks ago and even posted it on this site. Mees thinks you are a goofy liar.

        • Anti Government

          And who is doing all the killing??? It is not the left. The violence comes ONLY from the right. I will only agree that both sides need to tone down the rhetoric but violence is only from the right.

          • DaveH

            You are wearing some major blinders, Anti.
            I’ll show you mine:
            The Holodomor, The Holocaust, and the Cultural Revolution.
            Now show me yours.

          • Steve

            It’s unbelievable! This nutjob was a lefy leaning homo whacko who spent his time on lefy whacko websites and now the rest of the lefty whackos are trying to blame this situation on the right? You guys wouldn’t know the truth if it hit you in the head. Shut up already! You are blind because you don’t know the TRUTH! You reject the truth and defend the other side. Your side is the side opposed to the truth. Here it is……Jesus is the truth and you don’t know Jesus, do you? You wonder what the heck I’m talking about because you don’t get it. But I didn’t think you would anyway.

          • American Citizen

            Uh, I believe the shooter is a leftist.

          • marvin

            Anti Government
            you just can not fix stuped and people like you it,s in your make up blame blame blame bush bush bush, not my fault,not my fault, not my fault,go back under that rock you been hiding under,you have had your head up your liberal ass to long that ass gas has worped your mind

          • Vigilant

            Anti Government: “The violence comes ONLY from the right.”

            Thanks for the insight, I didn’t know that Nidal Hassan was a right wing wack job.

            As a leftie, your monicker is very appropriate.

          • DamnYankee32

            Dear Anti: Hate to inform you that it is not true that violence ONLY comes from the right. If one, whether right or left, is a criminal or mentally-deficient, they can ALWAYS find a weapon, whether a gun, a knife, or a baseball bat, to kill someone. Whether rhetoric, on either or both sides, is responsible has yet to be proved.No one should jump to any conclusion before ALL the facts are in. “Opinions are like a$$$holes, everyone has one”.

        • DaveH

          Karolyn is trying to incite violence by pointing the finger at the “Conservatives”.

          • kate8

            DaveH – It’s becoming all too transparent. Further inflaming Left-wing nutjobs against the Right is a fringe benefit here. I do believe that is part of the ploy.

          • eddie47d

            …and Dave H. is still playing the Hitler card to incite hatred against the left. Hitler was a right wing master of deceit and it seems like Dave is using some of his tactics. Take your snow job to Arizona for they could use the moisture.

          • Dan az

            So eddiee
            Hitler is a conservative Really where did you read that?Could you give me the site?I must of been asleep then so please give me the site!

        • kate8

          Karolyn – The Left jumped to blaming the Right before the ambulance ever made it to the hospital.

          Now that the guy’s been shown to be a Lefty, we’re supposed to stop pointing fingers.

          As far as I’m concerned, all bets are off. The truth must be told, whether you guys like it or not. Holler on. We won’t be silenced any longer.

          • JeffH

            kate8, I’ve taken that stance for a long time now, the gloves have been off.

          • Karolyn

            Kate, I could care less if the guy was a lefty or righty. According to what I’ve read, he had leanings in both directions. He is nuts. I agree with many talking here that it is a problem of both the left and the right. I could also care less about these lefties who are out for blood and “taking advantage”. I have no use for them or those on the other extreme.

          • kate8
          • HFlashman

            The EU times ?

            Next Kate you’ll be citing the Weekly World News as a reliable source….lol

          • JeffH

            HFlashman, sure beats your sources…none! OOPS, Olberman, Maddow, Mathews, MSNBC, Daily Kos, Huff N Toke…??? Want to add to it, be my guest.

      • HFlashman

        OK…when I read the article one thought kept running through my mind…”who is this lunatic” ? i had a difficult time believing even Crystal could display the lunacy and far from reality excuses he writes. However, as has been the case since I began reading these articles, Crystal came through with his usual rantings and inflamatory accusations.

        In all the months I’ve read this board, I cannot recall anyone labelled ‘liberal’ here has suggested violence. Yet… count the number of times EACH DAY it comes from the so-called self styled ‘patriots’. “Lock and Load’ was one statement today fer chrissakes !

        I have never read the Daily Kos. Never. I have heard of few times where extremist violence has been used against the Right (please feel free to cite sources…not just make unsupported claims,,,,but cite sources). And I flat out guarantee, you can cite one, or ten or maybe twenty instances the Left has come close to urging violence…and I can cite hundreds and close to thousands from the Right.

        What occurred in Tuscon was the rsult of a lunatic. Neither Right nor Left…he is flat out nuts. And if there wa ever a case for snuffing someone, he is it (though for me..I’d rather he be given a life sentence and every day for the remainder of his life at a set time the cell door opens and there stands a guard with a certain shaped utensil saying ‘bend over Dude’..)

        But how many here when they heard the news and the shock of sadness of the tragedy enveloped them…how many had as one thought “egads, I hope it wasn’t anyone connected to the TP or the Right”?

        That’s where the Rush’s, the Hannity’s, the Beck’s etc have brought you. That’s the image where accepting and cheering folks who pack guns to rallies has created of your movement. That’s what the constant barrage of hate and bigotry has wrought. Where Palin can place gunsights targeting Democratic seats “targeted” for action as she spouts her ‘lock and load’ garbage.

        Everyone recognizes the shooter in Tuscon as a raving lunatic. Everyone.

        But as well, recognize where the rhetoric has brought the TPers and the extremist Right. That’s your image you created with glee. And unless changed, it’s your shame.

        • castaway

          Actually it is shameless people like you that have brought us Patriots to the point of a “good ole fashioned ass kicking contest”. You all want to run this country into the ground, and have no respect for the constitution or the bill of rights unless you can find a verse in it to support some of your socialist ideas. So now you have brought this Republic, not a Democracy to the brink, and you can all see the end coming. I sure hope you like violence , because you ain’t seen nothin yet. You lefties reap what you sow and now let the violence begin. It is what you really wanted, so you can (you think) bring out marshal law and call all the Patriots terrorists,to be locked up for attacks on the USA. Well Flashman you are going to [offensive term removed] when you find out how many of us there really are that are patriots. No, we are not out to kill,like that wacko just did, but we are ready for a fight. On that day, if you are hiding in the closet,we will drag you into the street kicking and screaming. THe gist of it is if you lefties really want to destroy the America we all love, then prepare for a fight.

          • Robert Smith

            Castaway posted: “You all want to run this country into the ground, and have no respect for the constitution or the bill of rights unless you can find a verse in it to support some of your socialist ideas.”

            Show us in the Constitution of the United States where your god is appointed to run America.

            It’s WE THE PEOPLE…

            Not castaway’s god. That’s where your huberus is. Quite frankly when I get threatened in the mane of some god it’s the person who is trying to force THEIR religion upon me; I don’t see or hear their god. But the people, that’s another story.

            Rob

            Rob

          • DaveH

            I have yet to see a Christian force their belief on anybody. But I have seen plenty of Liberal Atheists force their religion on the Christians. Note that I say “Liberal Atheists” as I am also an Atheists, but I am an Atheist who believes in the kind of Freedom that our Founders believed in. Something Liberals know little about.

          • kate8

            castaway – Isn’t it amazing that when the Left loses power, they cry about wanting to be heard and ‘can’t we all get along’, and how we need to ‘compromise’ and ‘stop the divisive rhetoric’.

            Well, what happens as soon as they take power? ‘Shut up’, ‘you lost’, ‘get to the back of the bus’…literally, shut out of every discussion.

            They dish it out, but they JUST CAN’T TAKE IT.

            No, the violence is NOT coming from both sides. It’s coming FAR MORE OFTEN from the LEFT, as they are the ones who not only advocate it, and call for it, but actually train for it.

            Well, they’ve overplayed their hand, and we’re mad as hell. They think they can continue to run roughshod over conservative America? I think they’ll soon see that we’re done rolling over. Talkin’ part’s over. We’re ready to stand firm, and we’re done being jerked around. Back off, or be thrown off.

            It is YOU, on the LEFT, who’ve split America, by design. What you mean by ‘getting along’ can only mean ‘stop fighting us and roll over’. I’m here to tell you, the answer is NO! NO MORE.

            You’ve gone and pushed us too far. You’ve awakened another sleeping giant.

          • Dick Gazinia

            Castaway – You need professional help… mental help.

            Anyone who wants to drag neighbors into the street and beat them for disagreeing with them is truly ill. That’s what the Naziz did in the 1930s.

          • Dan az

            Hey kate
            I luv it when you get mad!I think it scares the hell out of them! Keep up the good fight girl!

        • Angel

          Well said. What is scary is that this shooter spouts the same “government is coming for you and your guns” nonsense that alot of people here believe as well.

        • DaveH

          Show me a single event where Hannity or Beck have called for violence, Flashdunce. It shouldn’t be hard, as there are hundreds of their videos on the internet. You are good at fabricating facts, not so good at being factual.
          The facts are that the Liberals want to help themselves to the money of others. Right there they are breaking the moral law “Thou Shalt not Steal”. So, now that we know that don’t abide by morality, why would we put anything past them?
          And how do Liberals help themselves to other peoples’ money? Through their Big Government gang. Why do people let the Government take their money? Because they know the violent results of refusing that taking.
          The real question is “Do you really know that, and are pretending innocence?”, or are you just plain ignorant?

          • Dan az

            Dave I think we know the answer to that one!

        • Searcher

          Flashman
          Your little “bend over dude” statement, would to me, be considered a violent act. So you are condoning violence and torture? (or is it just a fantasy of yours?)
          There is plenty of vitriol on both sides. Neither side has an exclusive on the nasty rhetoric. It just seems that the liberal side has more trouble remembering it when it comes from their side.
          According to the liberal side, I am a potential terrorist (since I’m ex military) and the president of our country has labelled me as an enemy, since I oppose much of his agenda. Ex-speaker Pelosi called me unAmerican since I was against their ridiculous healthcare plan. I hardly consider those statements to promote a reasonable response. The left has a penchant for demonizing anyone that doesn’t agree with their ideas. They love to name-call. If you do not agree with them, you are either unamerican, an enemy, a racist, a homophobe (a word that was made up BY them), a crazy, a terrorist, and any number of other names they like to use. I don’t find the namecalling to be a good way to promote reasonable discourse, and a lot of us out here are tired of it.
          In this instance, the “crazy”, the violent one, was one of their own, but they seem to want to do anything they can to remove any possibilty of THEM perhaps sharing in responsibility of possibly inciting this young man to action. I just wonder why they think that as a lberal, he would even have been LISTENING to the non-liberal side.

          • Dogma-Free

            Would that be torture, or just ‘enhanced interrogation’…?

            Oh, right…it’s the same thing. My bad.

          • HFlashman

            I’m sorry guys. Searcher and Dogma..let me rephrase that so y’all won’t be conflicted in what the guys did…once convicted (if convicted as he is presumed innocent), I believe his punishment for his crime if not the death penalty should be delivery of ice cream and cake with catered meals …

            My sncere apologies if my opposition to holding people without trial, charges, or observance of the gaurantees under the Bill of Rights as well as opposition to state sponsored torture confused you as to my stated desires for punishment for the shooter’s deeds.

        • always right

          Glad you asked, flash.
          http://gatewaypundit.rightnetwork.com/2010/11/it-begins-leftist-icon-calls-for-violent-socialist-war-against-tea-partiers/

          Then there was all the stuff through the 60′s and early 70′s, the burning of banks, ROTC buildings, Kent State (where they threw rocks and bottles at the NG troops and righteously, got shot and killed), the vandalism by the left of school buildings, the bombings and murders of the like of bill ayers, the Demoncrapic national convention in Chicago, the riots at the WTO, Watts riot, Detroit riots, Rodney King riots (those sure weren’t conservatives in the streets nor were those inciting same conservatives); the list goes on and on.

          • kate8

            always right – EXACTLY.

            We’re sick of the lies. We’re sick of their acts of violence, which they then blame us for.

            The greatest weapon is TRUTH. The light is shining, and they’re finally being exposed for the lying hypocrites they are.

          • HFlashman

            Always Right (if a name was ever a misnomer..). Did you fact check that blogger’s claims? Seriously check it? Didn’t think so. And you’re equating the anti war times of Vietnam as ‘proof’ the “left’ is violent? Give me a break. And such mindset you display is the reason as i cited…to your shame the country has the image of the TPers and the extreme Right as violence minded and irrational to the point of being dangerous.

        • Steve

          Flashman, you make a great point. The guy is a whacko. Ok, so now tell me why the left is attacking the right on this situation? Let me help you out. It’s what they do. They distort the truth. They attack and distort what they don’t understand and the truth has no place in them. That’s the way it is and if you defend these lying clowns in the MSM then you are a gutless lying clown too. Thank God for FOX News! The most trusted name in news. They are good people.

          • HFlashman

            Steve:

            Several points you should be aware of.

            1. There have been studies 9i belive at least two0 which show that viewers of FOXMcNews are the least informed and have the least amount of accurate knowledge than any other segment of the population…amazingly enough, one had said viewers more misinformed than people who didn’t read newspapers or watch news on tv.

            2. From everything folks post on this board, take a gander at whom is dostorting what. Let’s see…so far todfay i visited three ‘sources” cited as “proof’ of what the writer was ranting … Guess what/ LOL … yep. None of it close to being true. fact is, one tried using a BLOGGER’S statement as ‘proof’ the shooter was a “leftist’. Another tried using the EU Times..which is akin to using the Weekly World news as a relable source.

            Fact is..time after time on this board all one has to do is check the ‘sources” cited…and the lies and distortions are easily exposed.

            As well..people who comprise the average TPer or wacked Conservative Right don’t think. Just use the authoer of the article, Ben Crystal. I mean c’mon…his IQ wouldn’t make a respectable earthquake and his mental swiftness is slower than a herd of turtles wading thorugh chunky peanut butter fer chrissakes. If you read this board, you’ll note every once in awhile Crystal will pen a short post patting himself on the ack or acknowledging plaudits from some insane nimwit, but never can he defend hs writings. yet people here are like coyotes circling red meat with his inflammatory hack writings. Ah well…he has toearn a living somehow and the local McD’s near him probably rejected his application.

          • Dan az

            Flash
            you truly amaze me with your facts Oh thats right there are none Sorry my bad!

        • marvin

          HFlashman
          in two words [offensive word removed] ,the kos put a bull eye on this congress lady in 2007 for being to far to the center,open your eyes and read befor you start placing blame but as allways you like to by pass the facts and one more point if you don,t like this right wing blog ,DON,T LET THE DOOR HIT YOU AS YOU GO flashless or clueless

        • http://www.kjnf.net Jimmimac

          another left winger who does not watch the left wing media, ok so what then did Obama say about a knife, and the left wing radio joke calling for a revolution, and then there was Obamas friend Louis Farakhan calling for a revolution and the union leader who called for killing political leaders, where were you when these and dozens of other left wing loons called for violence in America? I suppose you think they are all right wing plants in the left as well!

          • kate8

            Don’t forget the guy calling for the killing of whites and their “cracker babies”.

            Don’t forget the hispanic groups calling for killing all whites and “taking back” the southwest.

            Don’t forget the Muslims flooding into America, taking over our cities and calling for taking over America, committing terrorist acts against Americans and overthrowing our government.

            These are outright calls for murder and mayhem.

            These are not conservative voters. Where has been the outrage from the Left? Where have been the cries for them to tone down the rhetoric? (crickets).

            Where do they point fingers? Sarah Palin!

            They aren’t getting away with this any longer. We need to call them on EVERYTHING from now on.

            The tables are being turned.

          • Dan az

            Hey kate
            See it pays to get pissed off,I forgot about all those and many more thanks!

        • Allan Halbert

          Rationalize and revise as you will. Fact is the left started blaming the right immediately and you know this.

    • RAY

      WHaaaaaaaat? ARE YOU SAYING ? You ignore the WHOLE point of Ben’s article. He is simply pointing out the lightning fast speed at which the Left -Media tried to “PIN” this on a political dynamic. And now your bitching at him for simply pointing out an OBSERVATION?
      After the shoooting at Ft.Hood ,the same media people that he mentioned
      in his article CAUTIONED us ALL to not jump to conclusions…give it time..give it time..Yet even that stupid Sheriff comes out and taints the jury pool right away by blaming “right-wing” hate groups?
      Arguguing with guys like you is an excercise in futility,truly.
      Enjoy your finger pointing bitter life and keep on patting each other on the back. In the eman time…the rest of us will be out there to stop your bitterness with Pro-American optimism.

      • eddie47d

        Ben’s article was hardly pro-American optimism and maybe that sheriff is just sick and tired of all the hate and divisiveness that has been placed on his community over the last few years. Look how sheriff Arpaio in the next county over has stirred up controversy in those same years. We’re all tired of it all and on many fronts.

        • always right

          Eddie, that sheriff’s speech was hateful rhetoric to those of us who are conservatives. It was also based upon his ow prejudice toward conservatives rather than the facts in the case; i.e. it was lies. But that’s all OK with you because you’re just another libtard to whom facts mean nothing and with whom hate speech is fine as long as it is directed at conservatives. What’s that make you? Oh, a hypocrite, a hater and a bigot.

          • eddie47d

            Classy words; hate, bigot? Sheriff Arpaio has said far worse than this Sheriff and has spread much hate and bigotry.

          • JeffH

            eddie says…”Sheriff Arpaio has said far worse than this Sheriff and has spread much hate and bigotry.” Maybe you could provide some proof to another of the eddie assumptions…seems the good sheriff is enforcing the law…

          • eddie47d

            So did Elliot Ness but he wasn’t always so honorable.

          • Steve

            Is anyone else besides me waiting for eddie to back up what he said. Back it up or shut up.

          • eddie47d

            Steve; I’m not going to do your research for you.Arapio has done some unsavory things and some good things also.

        • marvin

          eddie47d
          this sheriff has two choices enforce the law as wrote not as he wants keep his opinions to his self or get out of office,his job is to enforce the law not to start a right left fight by stating his opinion not facts,

        • DamnYankee32

          You mentioned Sheriff Arpaio. Are you for illegals coming across the borders? I assume you don”t know or don”t care as to the difference between legal and illegal. How can the Sheriff who is doing his duty be accused of violence?

          • eddie47d

            There are plenty of Sheriff’s who break the law and not always in catching the bad guys.

        • Dan az

          See there you go again eddiee (Look how sheriff Arpaio in the next county over has stirred up controversy in those same years. We’re all tired of it all and on many fronts.)Blaming the ones that want to uphold the laws that we all have and refuse to see the truth for what it is. Show me where he broke the law!Thats the problem with you no facts!If I wanted bed time stories I would find a book that had them but thats not why I’m here,I like to get the facts up front and you and your kind seem to not have any!How can you recruit people to your side with out them?Fairytales thats all I get from you and the rest of your kind.What is so hard about researching the truth maybe because you would find out that your on the wrong team maybe?

          • kate8

            Dan az – That’s an easy one to answer.

            Leftists don’t care about facts. They operate from emotion. They recruit people, mostly youth, by appealing to those who are already live in a sea of raging emotion and hormones. They teach them to distrust the morals and values of their parents, and rip any foundation they ever had out from under.

            People with no real rudder in life are vulnerable to making choices based on emotion, especially when you convince them they’ve been cheated and held down, and then point the blame at conservative America.

            Islam does the same thing to their youth. They have a lot in common.

      • http://marcum@wildblue.net coal miner

        Daveh

        “I have yet to see a Christian force their belief on anybody” What about my mother and others.They made it impossible for a Catholic family to live in our neighborhood.They force their religious beliefs in public schools such as prayers,christmas plays, and easter egg hunts.They force indians and blacks to accept their vicious creed.What about the dark ages?That was when Christainity declare war on society,it resulted in the torture and murder of men, women and children.They also were responsible for the lives of 160 million Indians on both continents,North American and South America.In short,they kill more people than Joeseph Stalin,Chou Enlai and Mao tse tung.
        What About The Puritans,religious cults and other Christian nuts.You remember Abortion clinics? They are examples of how Christainity still dominates society and force their silly beliefs on everyone.

        • http://marcum@wildblue.net coal miner

          I meant Christianity.

        • kate8

          lump of coal – That’s idiocy.

          What do you lefty’s always do when you’re caught? Start in with the dredging up of (revisionist) history. That’s called throwing up a smokescreen. Clouding the issue.

          Abortionist killings? What about infanticide? That, you support.

          Tit for tat. That solves everything, doesn’t it?

          • Dan az

            Hey Kate
            I had to look that one up and it blew my mind!
            Babies who survive abortions are not protected by the Equal Protection Clause of the Constitution.

            Obama, the sole opponent ever to speak against BAIPA, stated on the Illinois Senate floor on March 30, 2001:

            I just want to suggest … that this is probably not going to survive constitutional scrutiny.

            Number one, whenever we define a previable fetus as a person that is protected by the equal protection clause or the other elements in the Constitution, what we’re really saying is, in fact, that they are persons that are entitled to the kinds of protections that would be provided to a – child, a 9-month-old – child that was delivered to term. …

            I mean, it – it would essentially bar abortions, because the equal protection clause does not allow somebody to kill a child, and if this is a child, then this would be an anti-abortion statute. For that purpose, I think it would probably be found unconstitutional.

          • http://marcum@wildblue.net coal miner

            Kate8,

            I am not a lefty.I don’t believe in any kind of governments.I belong to the Iww.We are sworn enemies of socialism, so called communism and capitalism.We are the true libertarians,we considered all governments dictatorial,including democracy.Anarchy is the best rule which means no rule.Anybody can join the IWW, we welcome all races, colors and creeds.

          • kate8

            coal – Show me a society where that has ever worked, but I’m not aware of any.

            Judging by your posts, that is a scary thought, indeed.

        • Dale on the left coast

          Lumpy . . . you’re starting to sound like the guy in jail in Tuscon . . . . .

        • DaveH

          I don’t know your mother, Coal Miner. And I’m talking about this country, these times. If you can cite some references for the force you are declaring by Christians, I would be happy to look up references of force against the Christians. Remember, current times, Miner, not several hundred years ago.

          • http://marcum@wildblue.net coal miner

            Daveh,Dale, and Kate8

            http://www.seesharppress.com/20reasons.html – 61k – Similar pages

          • Dan az

            Black lunger
            That has got to be the most twisted site I ever had to read!If thats the best you can do I would suggest that you take a one way ticket to Haiti because I think you would fit in quite well there!

          • DaveH

            Coal Miner,
            Are you providing proof for my point now? That website was nothing but a rabid attack on Christians.
            Read this one (use the links to get to the other pages):
            http://www.the-dispatch.com/article/20100224/COLUMNISTS/2244021/0/ARTICLES?Title=Christians-find-themselves-under-fire-throughout-United-States

            Has a Christian ever forced you to pray, Miner? There are plenty of cases around the country where Christians have been told they couldn’t pray, or post their religious symbols. Are you aware of any cases where Christians have taken people to court to force them to pray? Government is Force, Miner.
            Although atheist myself, I would fraternize with a Christian long before I would fraternize with a thieving, pushy Liberal.

          • DaveH

            Liberal leaders hate Christians for many reasons, not the least of which is their adherence to the Commandment “Thou Shalt Not Steal”. How dare those dastardly Christians tell Liberals that it is wrong to steal the property of others?

        • Steve

          Coal Miner, I’m sorry you have been so hurt by what you believe to be Christianity. Unfortunatly I hear similar stuff sometimes how people are hurt by the church and they stay offended for long periods of time. BUT please consider for a minute what Christianity is and what it is not and then I hope it helps you see things a bit differently. You see scripture says that “It’s God’s kindness that leads us to repentance” and that’s my experience. I know that you can find examples and people that have terrible experiences in church or with people that say they go to church or say they are Christians. But you you need to understand that A CHRISTIAN IS CHRIST LIKE. CHRISTIANITY IS TO ADOPT THE THINGS THAT JESUS TAUGHT AND LIVE THE WAY HE DID, or try to anyway. CHRISTIANITY IS TO LOVE OTHERS, EVEN YOUR ENEMIES. That’s Christianity and you quite possibly have never seen it or seen anyone that is a very good example of a Christian. The church as a whole has a lot of hurt and broken people in it. And I have heard a saying that “hurt people, hurt people”. Also, it’s true that some pastors or whatever you want to call them are or have been THE WORST kind of example of what a Christian really is and makes me sick. Some are not even Christians. But people in church are not God. They are people. Pastors are people. Some churches are better than others. Jesus was and is AWESOME. Jesus loved people and he was killed for it by the religious leaders of the time. But understand that Jesus willingly allowed it to happen as part of Gods plan to redeem mandkind from sin. “There is no greater love than this, that one would lay down their life for a friend”. In a nutshell, that’s Christianity and that’s what Jesus did for us. I truly doubt you have a problem with Christianity and hope you would understand that.

          Your friend,

          • http://marcum@wildblue.net coal miner

            DaveH,

            Growing up in the south we were ordered to bow our heads in school and pray and you are forgetting my mother. She crammed her silly beliefs down our throats. If what I am saying now I would have been expelled from school.Remeber the Monkey Trial,Scopes was not only fired,he was thrown in jail for teaching evolution.As the Bible being moral you better take a second look at your biblical heroes.You got Lot and his daughters,You got king David,lecher, bandit, murder and thief. You got Samson, and the wise man of the Bible, Solomon.Do you remember Joshua?He murder,rape and decimated entire towns.All religions are a means of force,Christianity is no exception.I could go on and on.The Bible is anything,but moral.

      • marvin

        RAY
        that is one reason the feds moved him to phoenix,one more point, there were other people killed or hurt besides this congress lady,some old people a young girl this was an act of a deranged person not a person playing with a full deck,and for anyone like the sheriff to start the blame game need be out of office their is no place in goverment for this kind of talk,and the people of arizona most likly won,t forget it,the facts do not at this point support his opinions and he should never have started this right left thing,as joe friday in the old dragnet show ,would say facts mam just the facts

    • Karolyn

      And a big AMEN! to that!

    • FreedomFighter

      The left can no longer play imaginary guilt games to edge more votes, nor will superficial displays of remorsesway any conservative or any other thinking American/english speaking.

      Should we now state: Dem policy toward immagration has created a multibillion dollar country wide systemic failure, with 1/3, one third, 33% of all in jail currently are illegals. Further more, this policy has all but collapsed social services, hospitols, fire and rescure services…cost billions.

      People need to call out the utter failure of the left, whatever the rhetoric cards fall.

      Laus Deo
      Semper Fi

      • Bruce D.

        Well said Freedom Fighter.

      • eddie47d

        Democrats have been fighting for Immigration Reform for some time now. Those reforms have included fines,penalties and years to achieve citizenship. The Democrats have deported more illegals than the previous administration and is trying harder to get the criminal element out of our country. There is still much to be done but please don’t dump this problem solely on them.

        • castaway

          That is the point exactly. We do not want your brand of Immigration reform,nor do we want amnesty for any of them. Send them all back, no matter how long they have been abusing our hospitality. You lefties do not seem to have the ability to run a country anywhere, but into the dirt.

          • eddie47d

            How come you aren’t talking about killing people Castaway? Did this mass murderer hit a nerve and you’ll be pulling back on your extremism verbiage for a few days.When the right calls you out then I’ll believe that they are serious about stopping this madness. Until they do I’ll have to consider it business as usual.

          • eddie47d

            Speaking of verbiage thundertone (below) tried to use some colorful language to spread his B.S. Get over yourself!!

        • thundertone

          [offensive word removed] EDDIEBOY…the dems have been primarily instrumental in instigating blame and anarchy and distrust in the American people using double speak and lies and manipulations soully to play get the end result they want which is ALWAYS opposite of what it appears…and YOU REPLUBLICANS LET THEM AND FALL RIGHT INTO THEIR GAME AND ACTUALLY ADD TO THE PROBLEM BY NOT CALLING THEM OUT ON THE CARPET AND UPHOLDING THE VERY VALUES THAT THEY SHOW PLAINLY NOT TO STAND FOR!! Such as the Constitution, morals, and serving the American people!!

          • Ret

            You hit a lot of nails on the head, thank you. All I can say is that I’m glad I’m old and won’t have to live many more years in this mess. I’m even happier that most of my family did not live to see it, particularly the different male members who fought in every war and/or conflict since WWI, to preserve our freedoms, our rights and our responsibilities. How did we come to the point of such evil? George Bush said after 9/11 you’re either with me or against me, Barry talks about groups of us as enemies. It took my brother years to be compensated for injuries after Korea, yet we give 100 times that to illegal aliens (they are not immigrants) without blinking an eye. The previous amnesty programs did not work, this one won’t work either. I’ve covered a lot of topics, sorry, but just had to say it.

        • chow

          All these democrat immigration rhetoric is nothing but amnesty. I myself just want them all deported and the 14th amendment section 1, struck down or interpreted by the court as to the exact meaning of the statement “and subject to the jurisdiction thereof”

        • SeeTheLies

          Eddie,
          You CLAIM that the Dems have been working hard to fix illegal immigration…. BS! How long does it take to build a FENCE? Had they EVER put any effort into building it the project would have been completed 12 years ago! Try another LIE! The Dems want to provide amnesty to every illegal so that they can BUY 15 MILLION VOTES to sustain their control of the U.S.A. In case you have not checked NObama is the MOST DIVISIVE “President” ever to usurp the office. He still has not proven to the American PEOPLE that he is legally elligible to hold the office. And yes, that means providing both a valid American Birth Certificate, and answering questions about the Passport he used when he went to Kenya and other places that were interdicted by the U.S. State department…. he could not have done it on an American Passport, no visa! If he used a passport from another country then he has surrendered his American citizenship.
          Go ahead…. stick your head in the sand and duck the questions, but that does not resolve the issue. Answeres are needed, and have as yet, not been forthcoming. How many Millions of Dollars has NObama spent to try to bury this? Too many! I have no respect for LIARS and THIEVES, in either party. Half the Congress could be jailed if they had not granted themselves ‘diplomatic immunity’ from prosecution. SICK!
          P.S. Try to respond with FACTS and leave out the vitriolic verbiage.

          • eddie47d

            Since the majority of illegals came into this country under another administration and went to work for conservative (Republican) leaning companies then the ball should have been put into their court. Why are you always trying to pass the buck onto Obama when he is doing more than that previous administration? There is a national debt out there and 2 wars which have taken precedence over the immigration issue. You hate Obama so what is new?

          • Steve

            I’m sorry my friend but I think you are wrong. Obama doesn’t want to necessarily give illegals amnesty he only want to say he will give them amnesty so they will vote for him time and again. It’s a game they play to get votes. I think this is how Obama got elected. just tell everyone you will give them what they want. Then when in office, just do the stuff you really want to do. Obviously, he lied a lot to get elected but what he really wanted to do was destroy our constitutional government, run up the credit card debt, pay off everyone that helped him get elected like Soros and the unions, convert us to socialism, make the country more politically and racially divided than ever, destroy business except unions, make energy prices “necessarily skyrocket”. Oh, and then kick the can down the road until Republicans get back in office so they can be blamed for all the damage he causes. Carter was stupid but his guy is very cunning and devious. I think he tries to take US ALL down within the next two years.

        • Searcher

          eddie47d
          Perhaps SOME democrats have been fighting for it, but if it was really a priority, why was it not done? They held both houses of Congress, and the Whitehouse. Just more empty rhetoric from them in an effort to pander more votes. By the way, how’d that work out for them?

        • Dan az

          Come on Eddiee
          Give me the facts just once!
          http://www.eutimes.net/2010/08/arizona-under-siege/
          I try to give only the facts not what I feel that they are,Why dont you try it?

          • eddie47d

            Nothing untrue about what I said.

      • marvin

        FreedomFighter
        i say amen to,befor the internet crooks in goverment could hide their lies and miss deeds,but now the light has been placed on them they run like cockroaches,and hide behind their liberal place blame or tell a lie enuff time, people will think it is fact .can i get a .so be it[amen]

    • DaveH

      Jeremy,
      Ben Crystal is just giving back to the left what the left has given to the right for many decades. Hurts, doesn’t it?
      I learned long ago that the left is full of racists who accuse the right of being racist. I learned long ago that the left is full of haters who accuse the right of being haters. I learned long ago that the left is full of mean people who accuse the right of being mean.
      And I am not fond of either the left-wingers or the right-wingers, but I find the right-wingers to be more moral people. Yes, they are being betrayed by their leaders, just as much as the left-wingers are being betrayed by their leaders.
      Maybe it’s time for both left-winger followers and right-winger followers to wake up to the fact that their leaders are in it for themselves. Leaders from both extremes have built Government steadily to its current Leviathan State, albeit the Left-Wing Leaders are much more brazen about it. Wake up Followers, you are being used.
      And Jeremy, Compromise? Please, give it a rest. The Democrat idea of compromise is Democrat says “Give me all of your money”, Republican says “Absolutely not”, Democrat says “Okay then we will compromise; give me half of your money”.

      • AnhydrousBob

        Well Said, Dave.

        Crystal was only displaying the tactics of the Left, only he actually provided evidence of the left displaying hatred and advocating violence – something missing from the left’s accusations of hatred by Rush, Beck, etc.
        And personally, I think Rush, Beck, etc are too STATIST (on the Right) for my taste, but I have never heard them spew Hatred (Anger, yes). IF they have, someone please provide it to me.

        • marvin

          AnhydrousBob
          i have knob on my radio and buttons on my remote if i dislike a program or a talk show i simply turn it off, i do not have to watch or listen to anyone i don,t want to same [for now anyways]as for beck hanity palin and that goes for obama,i pay my own bills and have paid for my radio and tv,s and computer,anytime obama or his subject come on i turn them off,i just don,t like to hear the same old blame game,my wife died my kids are grown and i don,t owe you or anyone my time it is mine to do with as i please tell the master calls,and saz times up marvin,tell then i will be a thorn in the liberals side or butt,two half truths do not make a whole it is still half lie

      • kate8

        DaveH – Great post.

        I think this incident has gone a long way in waking people up to just who these people are. And it’s not pretty.

        What will they do when their divisive rhetoric no longer works to keep true freedom-loving Americans down?

        We’ll see where the violence comes from when they have no more rhetorical tools left to use.

      • Jeremy Leochner

        Dave in this case I am not asking for comprimise I am asking for recognition. The recognition of rhetoric as being from all people from all sides. And with that the recognition that regardless of which side made the most rhetoric, the fact is if rhetoric is to blame for this incident then out of respect for the victims and their families we should put aside our personal views of those we disagree with and instead of blaming each other to the point that a discussion over a senseless shooting devolves into a massive debate over issues stretching from government regulation, to president Obama, to immigration and religion. I dont feel its what the victims would have wanted and I wish everyone would just stop it.

        • DaveH

          Maybe, Jeremy, if you are really as good as you think you are, you are just embracing the wrong political party. Please read this free online book. It may rock your world:
          http://mises.org/books/newliberty.pdf

    • patrick H.T. paine

      “To conquer, first divide!”

      All kinds of “heroes” have surfaced, and the stories are such
      obvious contradictions……once again demonstrating the realiability
      of eye witnesses…..but to those desperate to distract and derail,
      just more grist and fodder.

      Had a real hero been present ( one who had a gun and the instincts
      and training to use it ) much of the damage would have been avoided.
      And if everyone had a gun, maybe the gunman would have chosen another
      method, or none at all. ( he hadn’t planned on surviving so who can
      say….he probably expected police to be present and if they had been
      he would be dead. )

      That he survived is unfortunate for everyone, because now everything
      has to be controlled and managed to achieve the “proper” result.
      As with “timothy mcveigh”, this should not be difficult, after all
      the fact that there were 3 unexploded devices in the Federal Blgd,
      dutifully reported at the time, and then never mentioned again,
      was easy enough to bury.

      The spin has already started, with references to “incoherant ramblings”
      regarding “our currency” and “the Fed” and politicians somehow “not really
      understanding the words”……..hhhhhmmmm, so I guess such “incoherance”
      is rampant…….because a lot of it appears HERE……and in the Constitution
      as well……..i.e. Congress shall have the power ( duty and responsibility )
      to coin money and regulate the value thereof, fix the value of foreign
      currency, etc……..not to mention Article One, section 10.

      Since these elected officials have taken an “oath”, these “ramblings”
      are clearly “incoherant”……to them.

      Of course, the second article of the bill of rights, will again be raised,
      and once again it’s meaning conveniently misinterpreted…..for one
      clearly has a natural right to defend oneself against any threat,
      so the meaning of this “right” can only be, the one to defend oneself
      against “government” when it decides to use FORCE while exercising
      authority that is both “illegitimate and therefor criminal”.

      The simplest way to do this would be to rewrite history, and instead of
      the war that was necessary, simply declare that England, having received
      our “petition for redress of grievances”, understood and agreed with
      these complaints, and peacefully granted our indepedance, without that shot
      heard round the world, and the fact that is was “government force” seeking
      to secure an arsenal and denyihg the means of resistance, to those
      oppressed by “tyranny.”

      We may also want to eliminate any reference to the Articles of Confederation,
      which were so fearful of a strong FEDERAL government, that they were written
      with such constraints, that it rendered the system, unworkable….requiring
      what was essentially an “unlawful” effort to replace it. ( and over time,
      with distortion and corruption, ended up with exactly what was feared )

      Finally, to end this obvious “incoherant rambling” a question:

      How does one exercise one’s right to peacefully petition for a redress greivances,
      when the authority one is appealing to, is the source of those greivances,
      has a vested interest in continuing them, and has the power of force and the
      court’s to rule in their favor?

      patrick H.T. paine, citizen at large
      who will cease to reason, when they pry my
      brain from my cold dead head.

      • Dan az

        Patrick P
        that was well thought out and covered just about everything and not one lefty or righty mentioned Not bad at all!Thanks!

    • Historian

      If you continue to read these opinions, you will find that no one is interested in uncovering the truth. They are all stuck in the attempt to support their own point of view.

    • smithington

      WOW!!! So many responses. We should think about what’s going on. What’s goin’ on, what’s goin’ on?

    • Brad

      And I disagree with just about all of you. Our dialogue is the wrong dialogue. Politics & rhetoric, no matter how mild or over the top has nothing to do with what happened here in Tucson. This was a deranged man, obsessed with the occult, mind control, and dream control, and who knows what else. Anyone that knew him all say that he hated politics, that he never discussed it, and that he would rather talk philosophy or any of the aforementioned things.

      For some reason, he became fixated on Congresswoman Giffords. He knew there would be a crowd that day. You all have been sucked into the vacuum that the point-the-finger crowd has created, even by our irresponsible county sheriff that is tainting the case by postulating speculative political rants, attributing the shooting to things he has no evidence of. As a matter of fact, most of the evidence speaks volumes against what the blame game crowd is saying.

      If you want insight into this shooter’s warped mind, read this: http://motherjones.com/politics/2011/01/jared-lee-loughner-friend-voicemail-phone-message. This is an interview with one of his past closest friends. Scary stuff.

      As a teacher, I see this happening all the time in education. Talk about everything that you *think* is about the problem, but don’t actually talk about the problem so it never gets solved.

      • kate8

        Yep. Let’s just keep lapping up the official story, like we always do.

        Sure the kid had a warped mind, because he was damaged. He was used.

        No one has expressed any horror at what is being done to our youth. This young man is as much a victim as the rest of them. It breaks my heart to look into those eyes and see vacant, soulless being. That isn’t natural, and he wasn’t always that way, friends said.

        Think back at all the shooting incidents that have gone on in the US. Doesn’t anyone see a stunning similarity in look and behavior of these “crazed” shooters?

        Do some research into MKultra. This is precisely what it was intended for. It’s a horrific idea, and no one wants to believe it, but until we grow up and start realizing the extent to which we are being manipulated and herded, we cannot understand what we are dealing with.

        It’s sickening, and lives are being wasted all around.

  • Angel Wannabe

    “Murder has no party affiliation”__Especially a beautiful 9 year old little girl._Sadly Wackjobs are a part of Society, we know they’re out there, but no one knows when or where they’ll snap.
    You can’t arrest people for they’re opinions or because they act weird, like this man has done most of his life._ The authorities can go and talk to people about Loughners life all they want. Yes, the signs of mental illness were there, but until these people “Do Something against someone else”, No one, can “do” anything thing legal about them!__
    All of us can get fired up about politics, either side, but it’s the mentally sick Lone Wolf that’s the real danger here not heated political debate.
    I do have to agree with Ben, the Libs jumped on the bashing conservative bandwagon.(Well at least its not Bushes fault) I’m not having that, thats all for another time. Innocents died at the hands of a madman, period. The “do-gooders” of the world will die themselves trying, to pinpoint and stop, the next the gunman before another has to die. Unless they’re mind readers no one will stop it. It’s just a sad sad fact!

    • Robin from Arcadia, IN

      Angel… You are so correct. The media should not be trying to blame this on anyone except the the shooter! As deranged as this young man appears to be, he was not motivated by one single thing, but a combination of his lifestyle and the need to ‘do something.’ Only time will tell how mentally unstable he is. My prayers are with the survivors and the families.

      • Wild Bill

        Angel,Robin
        Thank you both for saving me a lot of time typing.I need say little more than I agree with your statements.There is way too much vitriol poured out on sites like these from both sides of the political spectrum.The gunman in Tuscon was a sick individual who acted not out of anger stemming from any given political viewpoint,but as a result of internal demons that are apolitical.Not to make light of this subject matter,but he just as easily could have shot up a McDonalds because he was once,as a child,refused a pony for his birthday.This tragedy in Tuscon should not be used as political fodder by either side.Let us all learn a lesson from this.Other than in the protection of life and property,acts of physical violence are the product of a mind that places no value on life.As much as we have our political disagreements here,let us agree to take a break from finger pointing and ponder the events in Arizona and pray for all the victims.

        Wild Bill
        Alaska

        • kate8

          Angelw- and Wild Bill – That sounds great and all, but this blame and run game from the left has gone on too long. They point their fingers and then we’re all told to come together.

          Yes, it was a horrible act, and we need to stand with the victims. And we do.

          But we simply can’t allow the Left to get away with this stuff anymore. And they will use it to pass every bit of egregious legislation they can get away with. Just watch. They won’t let it go without taking every advantage of it.

          I, for one, am not going to back off this time. It’s got to stop, before they use every act of violence to render us all completely powerless. This is the stuff the Left thrives on. It gives them what they need to advance their miserable agenda. If we back off now, it will continue to work, and they will continue to use it.

          Humanity is not 100% predictable. Short of total enslavement and technological mind-control, acts of violence cannot be stopped. All you have to do is look around the world at those who have tried.

          Unless we all repent (and I do mean the LEFT, as well) and drop the blame game, then we have to remain alert and vigilant against the moves of the Left. Forget their words of “coming together’. They lie. Always watch what their other hand is doing.

          • Angel Wannabe

            Kate8, I get it about the lefties_What they’ve done is hijacke a tragedy, to further an agenda that lost steam as a result of the election. All I’m sayin its sad as hell that it has to be politics as usual, in the light of a madman taking lives and maming so many.

      • marvin

        Robin from Arcadia, IN
        you are one hundred % right the media get paid to do news like it or not,but when the police start spouting their opinions with out facts to back it up then we have a problum we don,t pay the goverment for their opinions from the street cop to the president we want facts from them .the sheriff need keep his opinion to his self and deal with facts not what he perceive as fact that don,t back up what this mad man has done

    • dstk

      On one hand the left Liberals are, “tree huggers, “doo gooders” “goody two shoes” wanting to help all “those looser” and so on… but now in this situation “The Left has developed a cottage industry built on hatred” as you say.

      you can’t have it both ways… You are truly from the asylum. As you can see here even on this site most everyone is able to see that what has been happening with the escalation of hate and anger and believe it is wrong on both sides, if you will, but not you, you continue, even it this sad tragic event to spill your hate. and YOU profit from it.

      how can you possibly now do this “reversal” rhetoric with people like Rush and Beck as your chosen spokes persons, which you promote everyday!

      • chow

        I’ve listened to Rush and Glenn but i’ve never heard them say anything violent or espousing violence. All I hear from them are their political observation and about people in politics and their political background and beliefs. Yes I know it’s hard to hear the truth about yourself when you hear it from somebody else.

        • Curtis

          Okay… this took about ten seconds to find….

          August 10, 2006, Glenn Beck warned on his radio program that “[t]he world is on the brink of World War III” and that “Muslims who have sat on your frickin’ hands the whole time and have not been marching in the streets” will face dire consequences. Beck made his comments toward Muslims who he claimed “have not been saying, ‘Hey, you know what? There are good Muslims and bad Muslims. We need to be the first ones in the recruitment office lining up to shoot the bad Muslims in the head.’”
          May 17, 2005, broadcast of The Glenn Beck Program, Beck said he was “thinking about killing Michael Moore ” and pondered whether “I could kill him myself, or if I would need to hire somebody to do it,” before concluding: “No, I think I could. I think he could be looking me in the eye, you know, and I could just be choking the life out — is this wrong?”

          Shoot bad Muslims in the head? Choke the life out of Michael Moore? I’m no fan of ‘bad Muslims’ or Moore… here are two examples of what you asked for.

          • http://elitespacovers.com jfrodriguez-m50 gunner

            Curtis,be open and listen,I was raised by humble people a mexica indian/mestizo and a cauc.american white never was i told of hate but to analize and listen,you should do the same,watch Farrakak,Obama,Clinton,Jones and all the rest and find where all this is coming from,yes! there is fault from the other side but not as criminal a them like thaught in the corps,listen obverve annalize the act.

    • Norm

      Angel Wannabe
      Hold on to your hat.
      I agree with everything you said except that I think that Ben and the conservatives are making as much “hay” of this as the liberals are.
      This monster clearly isn’t running on all cylinders. It’s too bad a cop didn’t take him out then and there!
      Pardon my unbridled violence!

      • Angel Wannabe

        Norm_ This back and forth name calling in a tragedy, is just plain cold & stupid. To blame political debate on this is ridiculou-PERIOD! The madman that pulled the trigger, is the only one accountable. I don’t really care what his reasons or political motives were. Besides irregardless what he was politically?, it won’t change the murder verdict in the end.

        • kate8

          Angel W – Have you forgotten that the Left has pledged never to let a good crisis go to waste?

          Where’s your usual clear thinking here, girl?

          • Angel Wannabe

            kate8, Oh don’t worry kate the clear thinkin is still here_ and I’m just as p*ssed off as the rest of ya’s about these Liberals starting this crap by calling out Rush, Beck and Palin as soon as the first shot was fired. It’s tragic that nutjobs are on the loose and innocents gotta pay!_ and even worse that the Liberal wacks think the Conservatives had something to do with these murders. Almost sounds like the Libs are marking they’re territory for 2012 election, doesn’t it?

      • American Citizen

        What gets me is that she received death threats even from the shooter, but she didn’t have the security she should have had. Politicians know they are fair game, they admit it, but to not provide security for yourself when out in public is the height of folly these days.

        • Dale on the left coast

          The shooter had contact with the Sheriff’s dept about 5 times . . . why didn’t the Dimmicrap senile 75 yo sheriff do something about this clown???

          • kate8

            Dale – You are so right. The sheriff knew what this guy was about, and had been monitoring him. He even told Ms. Gifford that he was under control.

            Now he’s deflecting his own culpability by blaming Rush and conservative talkers. Why wasn’t someone there to make sure there was no incident? Were they, in fact, aware that Ms. Gifford was in danger, and they already knew how they would spin it?

            Things are really starting to smell more and more fishy. It’s also looking more and more like a false flag.

    • DamnYankee32

      Angel, don’t bet on it, that they will blame Bush. The left will work hard to blame others, themslves are blameless. Right?? The total facts aren’t in, other than the shooter was deranged. Yet that has not been proved.

  • Michael J.

    Hiding in plain sight is the culprit responsible for the chaos we are all now witnessing. A seemingly benevolent phrase which has become an un-written rule in western society. I am talking about the 90 year old scourge called “Political Correctness”

    Black -vs -White, Straight -vs – Gay and Left -vs – Right are amonsgt the stated goals of “Political Correctness” as prescribed by the desciples of Karl Marx in that Socialist think tank known as The Frankfurt School in 1920′s Germany whose mandates were and are as such:

    1. The creation of racial tension
    2. Continual change to create confusion and chaos
    3. The teaching of sex and homosexuality to children
    4. The undermining of schools’ and teachers’ authority
    5. Huge immigration to destroy sovereign identity.
    6. The promotion of excessive consumption of drugs and alcohol
    7. Emptying of churches through persistent critisism of church values and symbols
    8. An unreliable legal system with bias against victims of crime
    9. Dependency on the state and state entitlements
    10. Control and dumbing down of media
    11. Encouraging the breakdown of the family

    One of the main ideas of the Frankfurt School was to exploit Freud’s idea of ‘pansexualism’ – the search for pleasure, the exploitation of the differences between the sexes, the overthrowing of traditional relationships between men and women. To further their aims they would:

    • attack the authority of the father, deny the specific roles of father and mother, and wrestle away from families their rights as primary educators of their children.
    • abolish differences in the education of boys and girls
    • abolish all forms of male dominance – hence the presence of women and gays in the armed forces
    • declare women and minorities to be an ‘oppressed class’ and white men as ‘oppressors’

    Faculty member Munzenberg summed up the Frankfurt School’s long-term operation thus: ‘We will make the West so corrupt that it stinks.’
    Any of this sounding familiar yet? The parellels with our present day society are mind boggling.

    In the 1930′s the Frankfurt School Communist became too radical even for Hitler who banished them into exile. The group landed in of all places, Columbia University, New York where they set up shop until after the war in Europe was over. Before they moved back to Germany in the 1950′s they managed to create in their own image and likenees a few people whose names have recently become significant such as Saul Alinsky and Cloward & Piven whose plans for Progressive Marxism were obviously cast from the original set of goals prescribed by the Frankfurt School scholars.

    Here is also a video that explains in detail the origins and goals of “Political Correctness”
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qyu-9-OhHog

    • MsAmericanPatriot

      Michael you hit the nail on the head. That school is to blame for what is now happening in America. That is what the left wants for America and it is high time that America sees that this is what Rush and Beck see and do NOT like whatsoever. We want a school of thought like that of our Founding Fathers not these humanist nut jobs.

      • American Citizen

        I also blame Hollywood and the media for a lot of what is happening for the coarsening of our society. Parents are having a harder time raising their children as it is impossible to keep them from being exposed to all the trash out there.

        • kate8

          All well and good, folks, seeing where our kids are being led astray.

          But the real blame falls squarely on our own shoulders. We haven’t paid attention, we haven’t watched where the schools were going with our kids, and we’ve allowed the government to fill up with Progressives who have been incrementally dismantling our nation.

          We’ve stood by while our kids lost values, morality and ethics. We’ve watched them grow lazy and entitlement-minded. We’ve allowed them to believe America is bad, that socialism is good, and that excellence isn’t cool.

          Thank God that my grown kids still have values, and they can see what is going on in spite of their liberal friends. But it took them awhile to come back around, in spite of the fact that I didn’t see it myself as they were growing up.

          God is good.

          • Angel Wannabe

            kate8, I hear that kate8, our 28-30 year old kids thought we were nutz too__now they’re payin attention a little more, and gettin involved__Thank Christ!

    • UncleOtto

      Well put Michael!!

    • JUKEBOX

      I watched Rachel Maddow give a diatribe on gun control last night, showing stories of all the mass shootings in the last few years. I did not hear one word about someone in these incidents being armed, with the capability of stopping a madman or senseless killer. When George Wallace was shot, his personal bodyguard, State Trooper E.C.
      Dothard, took the first two bullets, and went to his grave regretting that he had not done more to protect the governor. I also noticed that two of the three people who restrained Loughner were over 70 years of age. Young people today have been trained to be pacifists. If there had been an armed patriot in that crowd Saturday, we would not have to worry about spending millions to have a trial for this nut case.

      • Angel

        You didn’t watch the entire Maddow show – she had an aide to the congresswoman who also tried to stop the shooter. He was a young, large hispanic man named Daniel Hernandez (who was honored by Gov. Jan Brewer and has just been hailed by the Family Research Council). 3 guys to why he appeared on her show…

        • JUKEBOX

          You’re right, I can only tolerate a minimum amount Of MSLSD. The aide is the one who tried to control the bleeding, which is very commendable of this young man, but I don’t believe that under the circumstances he was not able to do much else.

        • kate8

          Congress is already introducing gun legislation. It’s like they already had it ready, just waiting for an incident. (No! Really?)

          Taking guns is big on their agenda. Hillary’s already promised the UN that we’d be giving up our guns.

          • Al Sieber

            I agree with you Kate, and I also believe it’s a diversion to take our minds off of a lot of other stuff they’re planing to pull on us.

    • Bruce D.

      It looks like the left has succeded in in most of their goals Michael J.

    • crystal

      Excellent point!!!

    • Teresa

      Michael….a very well put statement. I wish everyone could place their hatred behind them, at least for one day and pray for all the lost and their families and for congresswoman Gabby. Regardless of OUR views, can we Please focus on Their needs just for today! We all know the media did play a bias role in their views but this has been going on and will not change. It’s WE, our rights, our personal actions in which we are accountable for. The government will go after OUR rights by any means. Is it right? Absolutely NOT! Should we give up any of these rights? Absolutely NOT! There will ALWAYS be nuts out there till the end of time bent on horrific acts, rather they act alone or rather they are influenced, but that does not give the government the right to punish nor take away the rights of WE THE PEOPLE! There is an outcry over Our rights of freedom of speech and guns. I hear how the media and congress twist it and distort it and make it as if WE THE PEOPLE are already quilty of crimes of revolting against congress. It is not a crime to be angry about how congress has cheated and lied to US and let our voices be heard. It is a Right to bear arms to defend and hunt. What congress fails to realize is We fear THEM. I do not condone violence, but I would fight for the freedom of the Constitution and the rights for ANY OF YOU on here.

    • http://na. Robert Bradfield

      Its that South African again. The most dangerous speak is half truths or blatant lies. Lie about the motives of a specific group of people and repeat it continuously and it becomes the “truth”. We have seen how Herr Hitler used it to eventually turn the German people against the Jews. It is at present happening in South Africa where the whites are continuously accused for not “working” with the new government to uplift the rest of the country – which is not true – but people are starting to accept that, to what ends is still not clear. To draw the line further to your situation, if people continue to accuse the “right” as the war mongers in the US, and it is repeated till it becomes the “truth” then one has the beginning of a armed civil conflict.

      • kate8

        Robert Bradford – Yes, that’s it exactly.

        They just keep loudly repeating a lie until everyone believes it to be true.

      • libertytrain

        I like reading you Robert. You are actually “walking the walk” rather just “talking the talk” – in other words you are there and living it and seem to hope we aren’t forced to do the same.

        • http://deleted Claire

          libertytrain–I heard that Church group from Kansas that goes around “protesting” at soldeirs’ funerals is supposed to be at that little 9-year-old girl’s funeral. From what I hear Arizona is going to be “ready” for them and I hope they are. I also heard there is talk of Hell’s Angels possibly being there to keep this nutty church group away? Also about 10,000 people are lined up to keep the weirdos at bay? Is there no end to the insanity in America?

          • Karolyn

            Claire I believe it’s another motorcycle group that does that. they have done it at other funerals those wackos wanted to protest at.

          • libertytrain

            I believe that if anything would bring the libs and conservs together, it would be to protect the helpless and suffering from these unGodly people.

        • kate8

          Claire – No! That’s deplorable.

          I don’t really know anything about this churchgroup, but they certainly don’t seem very Christian to me.

          It sickens me to hear that. These people have n0 decency. The parents of this child have enough suffering to deal with. It’s unbelievable to me that any church would be so heartless. That anyone would.

          My heart aches for this family. What a beautiful child, and a waste. I’d be totally devastated.

          • DamnYankee32

            It is suppose to be true that the church group that protest at funerals are to be there at the funerals. Ijust heard of this on the tv. I heard that the people of Tucson will not allow the protesters as near as the protesters want to be to the families.

  • JIM

    HOW ABOUT ALL THOSE FAR RIGHT PEOPLE SPEWING THE HATE AND VIOLANCE. YOU KNOW RUSH , GLEN BECK,HANNITY, AND MOST OF THE GOP. IT IS AMAZING HOW THE REPUBLICANS CAN START SOMETHING AND THEN TRY TO BLAME THE DEMOCRATS. THEY ARE SUCH HIPOCRITS

    • Angel Wannabe

      JIM, Sounds like your trying to get something started too__EH?

    • Pathfinder

      What hate and violence ?? Psychologists call what you are attempting here PROJECTION. The left has been spewing hate and practiceing violence for a long time and wants to accuse conservatives of the very things which liberals have been practicing for a long time. Show me some video of tea partiers intimidating voters as the new black panthers did in Philadelphia. You can’t because there were none. It is no wonder that a leftist nut case thought he could get away with murder. After all, BHO’s justice department saw to it that the voter intimidation charges were dropped.

      • JoMama

        Pathfinder – you are right.
        Tea-partiers are just little old ladies & gentlemen with a passion for law & order. NOT the evil hate-mongers the left makes them out to be. There is NOTHING wrong with freedom of speech (that’s one of our Constituional rights). And there is NOTHING wrong (or racist) about wanting to uphold the law of the land & prosecute the ones who do break the law.
        I feel for all those people who were shot in Tuscon, AZ – no doubt. The act of just one crazy man (Jared Loughner) cannot condemn the mission in which the Tea-partiers are working for. These people are working for the all the rights & freedoms FOR the American people. It’s really too bad when fellow lawless American leaders who do not have the same views are fanning the flames of fear & hate. Yes, making it seem as though it is all Republican at fault here. They are practically saying that all the Republicans pulled the trigger!!
        THAT IS SO WRONG IN SO MANY WAYS!!!
        We are the UNITED STATES – NOT THE DIVIDED STATES!!!

        • Karolyn

          Little old ladies and gentlemen????????

          • American Citizen

            A lot of us who agree with the Tea Party’s views are senior citizens. We’ve lived long enough to know the policies of the leftists don’t work, they impoverish all but the elite. The elite then makes it almost impossible to better your station in life. It’s called “slavery”. Some call it socialism or communism. By any name, it’s bad for us. We are in grave danger of losing our Constitutional form of government and the freedoms it gives us if we don’t wake up.

    • TIME

      Jimmie, have you checked your dippie? I smell something real bad and its coming from you.

      • Karolyn

        Now, see? Is this really necessary? You sound like a kindergartner. I would expect more from you, Time.

        • TIME

          Karolyn,
          So let me get this straight, I am not allowed to have fun with a moreoff?
          Really?

          • Karolyn

            Nobody said anything about being “allowed” to do anything. I could care less if you want to act like a jerk. The point is we’re supposed to be mature adults!

    • chas

      If it wasn’t for being sick & tired of hearing Blue-shirted Liberal NAZIZ spew their venom for years through the lamestream media, academia, and the halls of congress/ presidential pulpit, I would NOT EVEN BE ON THIS SITE!!…ANYONE with a BRAIN knows BSLN arguments are specious and meant ONLY to silence opposition….WE are AWAKE, AWARE and ON to YOU!!…This ALL will change either by BALLOT….OR…..BULLET!!….I….AM….READY…AND….WAITING!!

      • eddie47d

        You sound like part of the problem with you’re “liberal Naziz” ranting.

        • http://yahoo.com chas

          Eddie, you Blue-shirted liberal NAZI panty=waist!!…I’M part of the SOLUTION!!

          • eddie47d

            Not!

    • http://naver sook young

      Jim, please do these things:

      1. Learn to spell more correctly.
      2. Learn about the subject at hand. It was already reported that he was a pothead and a left wing extremist. The GOP, TEA party, etc, had nothing to do with this. Please quit acting childish.
      3. This may have been an isolated incident and not affiliated with any political party. Why blame someone or something else than the person doing the shooting?

      Are these points clear enough for you? Thank you.

      Sook Young
      Wife of the Samurai

      • Curtis

        hahaha ‘…more correctly’? Something cannot be done ‘more correctly’, it’s either correct or it isn’t. Everyone has their flaws… his is spelling yours is seems to be grammar.

        • independant thinker

          And yours is being an A$$

    • http://n.cates@cox.net Norman F.

      Jim: How do you know those folks “spew hate and violence”? Do you listen to them? Or do you rely on the oh-so-far left MSM? You should put your brain in gear before you put your mouth in motion!

    • Rod

      Please share with us any of the hate and violence rhetoric that you “claim” emanates from Rush, Beck and Hannity. It has always been interesting to me to observe the thinking of others. It seems in today’s society that we cannot disagree to any degree with someone on the “left” without them calling us racist, hate mongers or anti-American (and that comes from the top down). Grow up and learn how to engage in an exchange of ideas and ideologies. Sometimes we (you and I) may even raise our voices. Sometimes in these types of exchanges I have been known to raise my voice – not out of anger but because I can be very passionate about what is going on in my life, with my family and with my country. I promise to always listen to what you say and ask questions if I don’t understand. I have noticed that that is not something that the “left” is willing to do. I’m not even sure that the “left” has the ability to listen even if they wanted to.

      • Angel Wannabe

        Rod, None of this crap the Libs are spewing is about “Conservative Violent Rhetoric”. The lefties have hijacked a tragic shooting incident and turned it political in trying to find someone to blame for a fellow democrat getting shot.__This tragedy in Arizona to me isn’t political, it should be viewed as tragic and human.

    • Mike Austin,TX

      Jim, Jim, Jim. I really feel sorry for you. You should sit and listen to some of these shows you “hate” before passing judgement spoon fed to you by the media. Especially Glenn Beck. He has never advocated any violence and he actively campaigns against it. Just for the very reason you are claiming. I don’t agree with GB all the time regarding how to remove a corrupt gov’t, but he seems to be right about how you react.

    • Mick

      JIM says:
      January 11, 2011 at 7:12 am
      HOW ABOUT ALL THOSE FAR RIGHT PEOPLE SPEWING THE HATE AND VIOLANCE. YOU KNOW RUSH , GLEN BECK,HANNITY, AND MOST OF THE GOP. IT IS AMAZING HOW THE REPUBLICANS CAN START SOMETHING AND THEN TRY TO BLAME THE DEMOCRATS. THEY ARE SUCH HIPOCRITS
      ********************
      JIM……It looks to me that the hypocrisy lies in your camp.
      You say that the Republicans start something and try to blame the democrats,how many decades has the left continuously held protests marches while the right sat on the side line doing nothing.You don’t like what’s happening right now because other folks finally had enough of the left crap and are beginning to rebel against you to save our country.
      You can bet that if there was anything to discredit our country the left were the first involved. race, pay, off the walls rights designed to benefit criminals and the list go on and on,,,,,,,,,
      What happened in Tucson has nothing to do with any party or other person than the killer, as for the hate , just look at your post and comments made by Olbermann, Krugman, the Tucson sheriff and the stupid media that has been plaguing our air waves for decades, talk about hating the people who think differently, if you libs can’t convince others to veer toward your mind set you slander them in order to destroy them..
      The way I see it, the left has pushed the envelope for too long, I don’t hate people on the left but I sure don’t want anything to do with them or their agenda.
      I see a snake, I don’t hurt it, I just walk away from it………….

      • Karolyn

        I would have to ad that those protest marches were by and large peaceful.

        • Mick

          Karolyn says:
          January 11, 2011 at 8:36 am
          I would have to ad that those protest marches were by and large peaceful.’
          &&&&&&&&&&&&*****************
          Karolyn …Some were, some were not!
          We’re headed toward the European style of living under the democrat’s agenda and for decades their leftist demonstrations have been anything but peaceful, how long do you think it will take before America is plagued with the same violent organized demonstrations as in Europe, it goes with the mentality and we’re damn close to it…………

        • ValDM

          You still have to qualify it with “by and large”. Were those prostests peaceful or not???? NO gray area here. yes or no!!!

          • Karolyn

            The peace marches were and are always peaceful. Gay marches are always peaceful until religious nuts start trouble. the million man march was peaceful. Dr. King’s rallies were always peaceful. Pro-choice marches are peaceful unless anti-choice activists start trouble.

          • Michael J.

            Karolyn,
            Apparently you are un-aware or are ignoring the Queer Nation Manifesto.
            Here’s a sample.

            “Until I can enjoy the same freedom of movement and sexuality, as straights, their privilege must stop and it must be given over to me and my queer sisters and brothers.

            Straight people will not do this voluntarily and so they must be forced into it. Straights must be frightened into it. Terrorized into it. Fear is the most powerful motivator. No one will give us what we deserve. Rights are not given they are taken, by force if necessary.

            It is easier to fight when you know who your enemy is. Straight people are you enemy. They are your enemy when they don’t acknowledge your invisibility and continue to live in and contribute to a culture that kills you.”

          • Karolyn

            Michael – I would seriously doubt that they have a large gay following. I’ve known many gays and never one who was that militant. I’ve never heard of them in any violent actions, marches, or protests. Have you?

    • JUKEBOX

      Jim seems to think that you can stop the bullets of a madman with beautiful, sensitive words. He is too stupid to know that all of the people he named, and most of the other conservative talk show hosts, are paying for 24 hour security out of their own pockets, not some paid government bodyguard. This is due to the multiple death threats they receive from left wing whackos every day.

      • eddie47d

        The whole issue has gone over your head when you blame one side over the other. Which means you are one sided and just can’t fathom that the right and left both sprue out venom. The left has it’s Olbermann’s and the right has it’s Limbaugh’s. I doubt if any of you knew this but in my state our Democrat Senator was threatened Friday night less than 16 hours before the Tuscon incident. A John Davis made statements that were recorded and the police arrested him. “I’m going to come down there and shoot you all”,”I’m going to set fire to your perimeter”,”I may go terrorism on you all”. You know what his beef was?Social Security benefits! This guy is only 44 years old and wants his SS benefits and is willing to kill for it. We have our own Wackos up here too.

        • JUKEBOX

          I would venture to say that the talk show hosts receive many more threats than any member of Congress do.

    • Bruce D.

      You accuse others of what you are doing Jim. Certainly the three people you mentioned do not hate and it is very hateful for you Jim to try and project that onto them.

    • castaway

      They are mostly Spewing the truth about the left. Kind of makes you uncomfortable when you know you are part of the problem Huh?

    • crystal

      It wasn’t the Right who pulled last Saturday’s trigger in Tucson, AZ. It was a refer-head liberal.

    • always right

      Jim. Please cite one quote where any of the people you named are
      inciting violence. (…listens to the crickets chiiirrrping…)

      Thank you. Now shut up and go away. you’re an idiot

      • Curtis

        As previously posted….
        August 10, 2006, Glenn Beck warned on his radio program that “[t]he world is on the brink of World War III” and that “Muslims who have sat on your frickin’ hands the whole time and have not been marching in the streets” will face dire consequences. Beck made his comments toward Muslims who he claimed “have not been saying, ‘Hey, you know what? There are good Muslims and bad Muslims. We need to be the first ones in the recruitment office lining up to shoot the bad Muslims in the head.’”
        May 17, 2005, broadcast of The Glenn Beck Program, Beck said he was “thinking about killing Michael Moore ” and pondered whether “I could kill him myself, or if I would need to hire somebody to do it,” before concluding: “No, I think I could. I think he could be looking me in the eye, you know, and I could just be choking the life out — is this wrong?”
        BTW… yes, Glenn Beck, Rush Limbaugh, and “the Right” have said hateful things… so has Keith Olbermann and the gang on “the Left”. The shooter had mental health issues and committed his heinous act before he was diagnosed. As someone has already said (elsewhere) blaming the media is like blaming Jody Foster for the shooting of Ronald Reagan.

    • http://www.kjnf.net Jimmimac

      I WILL BET YOU A DIME TO A DOLLAR THAT YOU NEVER LISTEN TO ANY OF THEM, AND IF YOU SAY YOU DO, I WILL ASK YOU ONE QUESTION WHICH I BET YOU CANNOT ANSWER SO STOP BEING A PARROT AND SAYING WHAT THE LEFT WING HATE MEDIA SAYS AND LISTEN FOR A CHANGE, OR ARE YOU AFRAID THAT YOU MAY FIND THAT THE LEFT IS ALL WET!

    • marvin

      JIM
      you like flashless and a few more thank just like obama if we disagree you will get in our face but trouble with that is their are more of us then you, and in the end you lose for truth is truth and facts are facts and your opinions are like a grain of sand on the beach amount to nothing

  • http://ByGeorge By George

    Here we go again. A nutter murders a few people including, unhappily, a member of the US House of Representatives, a Federal Judge, a child and several others and suddenly the left goes berserk and immediately starts blaming the TEA Party, Sarah Palin, talk radio, deranged ex-military types, and everybody else not on the Daily KOS e-mail list. It was an assassination attempt as the investigation has now disclosed and the target of the hit was indeed the Arizona Representative, Gabrielle Giffords. That she did’t die outright was a God sent tribute that the on- duty operating room surgeon was a retired US Navy physician, a specialist in penetrating wounds with twenty-four years of experience many on the battlefields of Iraq and Afghanistan.

    That this shooting gained such national prominence was simply because of the status of the victims. The continuing news coverage, repeating over and over again the same sordid details is remarkable in the lack of anything new, except that the shooter was a “left-wing pothead”, and a registered Independent who didn’t vote in the last election. The left is beside itself with fury that their take on the deranged “right” isn’t catching. People are on to them, like Megan Kelly of Fox News who cornered that silly sot of a Sheriff in Pima, County. Under her questioning he had to admit his comments were based on no facts what so ever but were his opinions only. Now the idiot is blaming Rush Limbaugh somehow. The sooner the FBI takes the investigation out of his hands, the better.

    But, what about the shooting? Nothing remarkable actually! It happens everyday here in Atlanta, out in Los Angeles, in New York City, Chicago, Washington D.C., Detroit, and any other large American City, and a lot of small ones you can name, and yet, the national press passes on them. Did I forget to mention to rising violence on our border with Mexico as well?

    Now, lacking a clear anchor with which to drown the conservative side, the political left has returned to that old saw, “gun control” and the question was asked “just how much control should the Federal government have over guns? Well, that question can be answered by referring to our constitution. On a news program tonight, a Democrat politician, a woman, said “Guns kill”. Well, no they don’t! People kill whether it’s with a knife, rolling pin, car, broken beer bottle or a pool cue. So, what else is new?

    What the gun does is to ensure civilization. If a robber wants to rob me, he first has to ponder if I can defend myself. As we do not live in a moral society, he must resort to persuasion or force to convince me to unwillingly part with my wallet. If I cannot defend myself, then I should comply, which is no guarantee that I won’t be killed anyway. However, if I have an equalizer, a gun, then he must make a decision, he can flee or die. I carry a gun, not to kill but to keep from being killed and the law gives me that right to defend myself. High profile people, like Giffords, or the President of the United States, are vulnerable to work alone killers because anyone willing to die can easily make a hit in public. That I can return lethal force works in my favor. It allows me to leave my home without fear, to go just about anywhere I wish to go without molestation (except by the TSA goons) and I can expect to live long into my elderly years with my wallet and my person in tact. When I am armed I have removed force from the equation. Arbitrarily removing guns form the hands of citizens is to empower the robber. It would do nothing to limit his actions. Freedom is the goal, the Constitution is the way!

    • Pathfinder

      @ ByGeorge : Sir, you are correct. I am tired of these gun-phobic idiots trying to disarm honest, decent people. I think that their real goal is to insure the safety of muggers, thieves, and other criminals.

      • JoMama

        Pathfinder – isn’t that sooooo “left”??? Yes. Yes.

      • crystal

        That’s the problem. Gun control fanatics can’t comprehend that the criminals will still get guns.

    • JUKEBOX

      I could not have said it better. Here in Anniston, AL, we have quite a few citizens that are still alive by being armed when a gunman threatened their lives during a robbery, but the robber was not so fortunate. I do not depend on the police to protect my safety, only to write the report of the aftermath.

      • Yvan

        Guns are for cowards and USA if full of it.

        • American Citizen

          Guns are for self-protection, what’s cowardly about that? Are you so anxious to die?

        • JC

          You mean like the “cowards” who were herded into the showers and ovens for lack of guns? Or maybe according to you, they were “brave” for walking right in there at gun point?
          Moron.

          • Yvan

            USA is a sick society and you’re part of it – Stock up on ammo and clean your gun, it’s going to be a hot summer. I know a place were you can buy hand grenades and AK-47, nice store for dick heads.

          • JUKEBOX

            Yvan isn’t old enough to remember pre WW2 Germany, and his liberal teachers at his government indoctrination center feared it might frighten him if he were taught the truth. When they came for the Jews, I didn’t protest, because I wasn’t a Jew. This went on through several groups I wasn’t a part of, and when they came for me, there was no one left to protest. History has a way of repeating itself. Yvan needs some counseling for his rectal cranial inversion syndrome.

            when

          • JC

            Good answer Yvan. Made no sense at all. You must be a Liberal.

        • marvin

          u don,t like guns next time you need help don,t call the cops they are all armed,u don,t like the usa no one will stop u from moving to mexico the citizens their have no guns,whats that u say they are being murder by the ten,s of thousands so what they gave up their rights to own guns now just the crooks on both sides of the law have guns and it is hard to tell who is the bad guys and the sheep like u are in the middle

          • kate8

            marvin – Excellent. Your point about Mexico is a great one. The murder down there is out of control, and the people have no protection.

            It’s easy to pick off people who can’t defend themselves. What a great idea.

        • Teresa

          REALLY! Then tell every military person that sacraficed their life for you to have Your freedom to be allowed to speak that! Say that to every law-abiding citizen whom stands for Freedom. But especially tell that to the people running round clock security for our President! Why don’t you call him up and tell him that?

  • Ed

    To Jim – You’re entitled to your opinion but I strongly disagree. None of them propogate the hate you speak of and if they do then what do you cal Olberman, Matthews, et al. Please Jim! If someone does not agree with you liberals then you always bring this crap up. We the people have had enough of the liberal agenda; it’s not about hate. It’s about change; change we didn’t want and furthermore, promised change we never received. All of us as Americans need to stand accountable and that includes our elected officials. Lastly you call Republicans hyprocrits; and Democrats aren’t. Some on both sides of the aisle are so let’s not paint with the broad brush sir. Check out all your facts before you rant on. And have a great day.

    • JUKEBOX

      I wonder what he calls Matthews for his comment about sticking a CO2 cartridge in Rush Limbaugh’s face and watching his head explode. If that isn’t violent, hateful speech, then I’m a newborn baby.

      • libertytrain

        Somehow when they make those comments, etc. it doesn’t matter… somehow is not relevant – confuses the heck out of me too.

        • JUKEBOX

          I forgot the killing in New York that Al Sharpton incited, where they burned the business, killing several people.

      • http://www.kjnf.net Jimmimac

        Great call jukebox, the left never proves their accusations against the right, but when we prove the left had angst against the right they attempt to change the topic, read some of my other posts like the charge that rush and beck are creating hate speech I said that he probably never listened to any right wing talk show hosts and the lefties only repeat the lefts mantra like parrots! My next move is to call for a boycott of all vendors on the left wing networks, according to Zogby a poll they conducted 65% of Americans claim to be conservative, so I think if we organize we can shut down the left wing hate stream media, so I hope all you right minded people join in on this!

        • JUKEBOX

          I believe that the boycott has worked, for Air America went bankrupt, Mike Malloy is hiding out in the North Georgia mountains, and government supported NPR is one of the few liberal outlets left.

        • kate8

          Jimmimac – Sounds good to me. Let’s all get organized.

          The Left has been organized for some time, and look how far they’ve gotten. We’ve been asleep at the wheel.

          We’ve got truth on our side. Let’s use it.

    • thundertone

      Hey bud…telling the goddamn truth is not hate speech… get a frigging clue you moron…as I was always taught…ya don’t like what ya hear, then close your ears, but telling the truth is just that…telling the truth…if it blisters your ears dimwitty, then maybe it’s cause you’re part of that hate thinking problem!!

      • kate8

        Well said, thundertone. Truth is truth, whether anyone likes it or not.

        They’ve used political correctness to criple us. If the truth is unpleasant, or goes against their agenda, it’s hate speech, so we have to all agree on a lie.

        No more.

  • RHSchumann

    No matter how this tragedy is spun, fact is the policical atmosphere has been poisoned and poisoned mostly by Conservatives or people who pretend they are Conservative. And the hate speeches and suggestions to committ murder must have an effect on simple or deranged minds. If the murderer didn’t read Palin, he certainly was aware of similar statements by Gifford’s opponenet in the last election.
    And don’t forget the NRA. Moderate gun control laws would have prevented this psychopath to buy a weapon in the first place. And that type of weapon should never be on the open market. Under Clinton it was outlawed. The Republican House made the weapon legal again in 2004.

    • Angel Wannabe

      RHShumann, and your doing the same damn thing your acusing others of,the only way it’ll stop if we all shut up, won’t it?__You included!!!__You Conservative bashers are looking for someone to blame for one of your own dems being shot!__This ain’t a political thing buddy boy its a human thing, grow up, people died here, your forgetting that!

    • Pathfinder

      @ RHSchumann : Your desire to ignore the actual political leaning of the shooter, and to unjustly lay this tragedy at the feet of conservatives shows the depth of your own delusion. It is the left which is a constant source of hate and vitriol in political discourse. So, take your Barbera Streisand (BS) accusations and fertilize your garden with them. Your lies are not believed here. You hypocrite !!

    • http://yahoo jowolo

      Sir, you have your facts twisted. Do some research. The laws are on the books to prevent this act. The local authorites dropped the ball. I suppose you think that by allowing larger capacity magazines caused this, and you think it wouldnt have happened if they were limited to just 10 rds. You have no clue.

      • JUKEBOX

        I wonder if he realizes that laws don’t stop crimes, they are supposed to be a deterrent. The jails are full of people that chose to ignore the law, just as Loughner did.

        • Angel Wannabe

          Your Right JukeBox, Laws are for the LAW ABIDING CITIZENS!___Why would criminals care if the laws were changed or not, they don’t abide by them anyway??_makes no friggin sense.

          • bobwire

            laws are for everyone! kinda like locks!

            I know of no one that don’t use them or depends on them in someway.

        • Robert D

          Nicely put. We all are faced with many choices in our lives, unfortunately some choices have bad consequences. Some choose to drive drunk and some decide to shoot people, but it is thier choice no matter what they read or what they are told.

          DO NOT take my freedoms because some Sycophant made a horrific choice.

    • http://naver samurai

      Did you really read the article or other intel about the shooter? I didn’t think so. See, now you went and got a group of patriots angry at your stupid butt for sounding like an arse. This was a tragic event, no question about that. I hope the parents of that child can cope with their loss and I understand somewhat of what they are going through. Though none of my children have died, but I have had to write letters home to a solider’s parents or wife about them dying in action. Never a good feeling. Just lay off of the party stuff and try to make that popping sound. FOR GOD AND COUNTRY!

    • http://n.cates@cox.net Norman F.

      It wasn’t the NRA that displayed a picture of Sarah Palin kneeling in prayer while a man stood with a rifle against her head with his finger on the trigger. It was one of the left wing nut jobs.

    • TIME

      RHS,
      Interesting but saddly dude your wrong ~ a glock has never been illegal to buy or own, please don’t post total Rhetroic.
      It only makes you look like an agressively stupid person.
      BTW ~ from many of your HATE filled / Vitrol post I have seen by the way even this post of your’s again cleary displays your utter comtempt and Vitrol.
      Perhaps you should find a class in “anger managment,” or seek out a good Shrink for your anger issues.

      I don’t own any guns but I can clearly understand that “LAWS” take away FREEDOMS, “Regulations” also aid in such restrictions on FREEDOM.

      How about “RESPONSIBILITY and COMMON SENSE.” Could these be possible issues, seems totaly logical to me and thats called the
      “HUMAN CONDITION,” Guns don’t kill people,
      in fact “PEOPLE kill other PEOPLE,” thus its a HUMAN Thing.

      A gun is a tool, just like a hammer or a saw, a baseball bat
      or even a screw driver or a car, all can kill just as dead as any
      gun. JFTR, all can kill just as many and just as fast.

      In Zimbabwe in the 1970′s the Leftist used baseball bats with rusty spikes in them, they killed thousands that way. But why let the TRUTH stand in the way when one can take the easy way out and pontificate such ignorance as you have within your post.

      Thus all points that making laws to restrict gun ownership is all part of the “Police State” mind set, of what disallows ~ FREEDOM.

      With FREEDOM comes that nasty word “RESPONSIBILITY.”

    • Bruce D.

      A very hateful post RHSchuman. You should be ashamed of yourself for that kind of hate speech.

    • castaway

      So in your infinity wisdom , if he was not able to buy a gun, he would not steal one, or use another method? He could have used an automobile as a battering ram, a chainsaw, or better yet, a Crossbow from a roof top. Either way, this nut job would have found a way, and gun control would not have stopped him, but if one of the people there would have been carrying, this NUT would have been dispatched, shortly after firing the first round. You gun haters are simply a bunch of SISSY’S.

    • clh

      TO RHSchumann, Criminals will always have guns when law abiding citizens will be stripped of theirs. They are criminals and will beg, borrow, steal, lie, whatever it takes to obtain one. I am armed for my protection against those wanting to take what belongs to me and not them. This shooter was a lunatic reported by the army who denied him, by his teacher who tried to have him removed from school by the Giffords campaign people who did not want him around. If it has anything to do with politics, blaim the liberals, the UN and Obama who wants to indoctrinate our schools with their agenda. This is how kids are being taught in schools now days.

    • independant thinker

      “And that type of weapon should never be on the open market. Under Clinton it was outlawed.”

      WRONG. That “type of weapon” has never been outlawed. What was banned was the manufacture and sale of NEW magazines capable of holding over 10 rounds. Existing magazines of all sizes were allowed. As for the actual weapon, the shooter used a Glock piston in I believe 9mm. The 9mm Glock pistol has never been out of production.

    • marvin

      RHSchumann
      that type of gun you talk about is a simi automatic 9mm glock no differant then any 22 22m 25 32 380 357 38 41 44 45 simi automatic pistol the clip was an extentd clip that held around 32 rounds as i understand most clips hold 8 or 9 shells but the point is reguardless of clips one shot one hit and simi is one triger pull for each shot

  • Wendy

    Here’s the thing. While Mr. Crystal presents as poorly as those liberal media outlets who bashed the GOP, Palin and the Tea Party, I know where he stands and probably how he arrived. I was around for this crap during the early civil rights movement days. This is very similar, a lot more sophisticated and being carried out by fewer peoples of color and for different reasons, but very similar.

    It is no longer only about who sits where on the bus or who drinks from the cooled electrified drinking founutain. That very movement has been taken and turned into something far less gallant. It is now a tool to further the agendas of the extreme left. It is about a mass take over of power in this country. Is there racism at the heart of it, absolutely. Are some of the instigators unaware that they themselves are being used, without a doubt. Mr. Crystal may very well be one of those who can see this and is frustrated. Name calling is never the answer, but these people tend to push the buttons of the best of us.

  • Bobbi Martin

    I so totally agree with you By George! This Political Correctness has gotten so far out of hand it is sickening. Look back over just the past 50 years or so. Things in this country have gone ” to hell in a handbasket” since whoever first phrased ‘Political Correctness’! I feel this is a major player in the US being what it is today – well on it’s way to being 3rd world!! The dismantling of gun ownership is but one of many steps headed toward World Government. Those among us who will not see this are the head of the beast. As the saying USED to go…When guns are made illegal, only the criminals will own them. It will NOT stop THEM from owning them. It will only stop US from being able to defend ourselves. Should you be one of the millions who now own a gun for you self preservation, you should really be thinking about a place to hide them, and hide them well, before the time comes when ‘THEY’ come to collect them. This of course will be done ‘For Your Own Good’. I hate seeing what this once grand country is well on it’s way to becoming. I hope I don’t live to see the total take-over by THE NEW WORLD GOVERNMENT.

    • pennsyltuckian

      You are correct sir. The only reason for strong gun control is to prevent free people from exercising their rights and to keep the tyrannical government safe. Considering the leaders of major gun confiscation schemes like Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Castro, Chavez were devout communists or socialists who realized they could never get their way in a free society what are the dumbocrats now trying with their new control hopes. Yes, Germany was a National Socialist revolution regardless of how the current leftist libs try to spin them as right wing. Consider how different things may have been in Germany, France, Poland, and other countries had the populace been armed and able to defend themselves when being herded to ghettos and death camps.

      • Mick

        pennsyltuckian says:
        January 11, 2011 at 8:05 am
        You are correct sir. The only reason for strong gun control is to prevent free people from exercising their rights and to keep the tyrannical government safe. Considering the leaders of major gun confiscation schemes like Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Castro, Chavez were devout communists or socialists who realized they could never get their way in a free society what are the dumbocrats now trying with their new control hopes. Yes, Germany was a National Socialist revolution regardless of how the current leftist libs try to spin them as right wing. Consider how different things may have been in Germany, France, Poland, and other countries had the populace been armed and able to defend themselves when being herded to ghettos and death camps.
        &&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&
        pennsyltuckian ,,,,What you said is absolutely correct….I am originally from France. I Know.!!!

    • JUKEBOX

      If these gun control pacifists had been around during the violent part of the civil rights era 60 or 70 years ago, they would wanted a background check before you bought rope or chain. These things don’t kill any more than a gun, hate kills.

  • Don

    Moderate gun control laws?? Get real, you really think he wouldnt have found a way to get one? The guy is insane. This isnt left or right, it’s the insanity of an individual. If more responsible citizens concealed carried a firearm the nutjob may have been put down faster than he was. You really should do some research. You’ll find that extreme gun laws drive up crime rates where they are placed. So typical of you liberals to attack guns and conservatives, using this terrible tragedy in hopes of political gain. Disgusting!!!

    • JUKEBOX

      I believe a person can go to a strange city with money in his pocket, and within three hours, be able to buy a gun. This is real life.

    • eddie47d

      There are 280 million guns in America and they are fairly easy to buy. So it seems like it is never enough and the conservatives have always used these tragedies as an opportunity to go out and buy more guns. That is a fact you can take to the bank. The more tragedy-the more guns-the more unsafe our nation becomes-the more tragedies that occur. It’s a never ending cycle with little common sense on either side.

      • TIME

        Eddie,
        I can go to Africa today and buy millions of guns all I need is cash.
        I can also go to just about any place in the middle east or South America and again cash is all I need. No ID no nothing.

        You don’t get out much do you Eddie, you may not know this but in the real world Eddie that is outside the US CASH is KING.
        Only in our own country is CASH looked down on, so perhaps you may wish to ask why that is, as in the REAL REASON?

        We have more laws on the books here in the US on guns then we have common sense. If the laws on the books are not upheld of what value will new laws have?

        • eddie47d

          Well then Time we should start upholding the laws on the book and stop ignoring them.

      • JUKEBOX

        Would you be so stupid to try to hurt or rob a person with a weapon in plain sight on his person?

  • FlaJim

    Nearly all violence in our society today is fomented by far left wingers and many of the nut jobs are attracted to this. It’s not those on the right who attend those ‘greenie’ conferences and stage violent riots. Leftists show up threateningly at their own party’s (the Dems) conventions to protest they’re not whacky enough. No one on the right made a movie about assassinating Clinton but the lefties were lauded for their efforts in making one about killing Bush.

    Lefties have been getting a bye on their vitriol for years because their propaganda arm, the MSM, approves of their aims. Meanwhile, they accuse the right of doing all the things they actually do or would if the situation was reversed. We know we can win at the ballot box; they know they can’t without stuffing it and using intimmidation.

    All that said, this guy was just a nut job and for the left to try to capitalize on this to push gun control legislation is contemptible (he was taken down and held by an armed citizen). That he identified with the left is what makes it galling to them.

    • JUKEBOX

      People forget that it was some of the Green people that burned all of those cars at dealerships on the left coast.

      • libertytrain

        I believe they also targeted homes/new housing developments as well.

  • bob wire

    Nice spin Crystal, ~ Are you attempting to be part of any solution or part of the problem?

    darn mean old tree huggers! Hollywood is on the march!

    Well ~ deposit your payroll cash and try to be happy with your efforts.

    A young woman is lying in a hospital bed fighting for her life this morning, while funeral services is being arranged for others ~ and for what? ~~ To sell some kind of political soap?

    It’s just too much to ask of a pitchman to not sell something that 3% of Americans are willing to buy!

  • Mike Austin,TX

    Seems a bit convenient that Congresswoman was pro 2nd amendment. Now they want to pass more laws protecting elected officials more than they protect the average citizen and I am sure there will be an attempted reduction of our rights tucked in there also. Never waste an opportunity huh…..

    • JUKEBOX

      Yes, and it is ironic that all of the Obamaphiles call Chicago home, and one of the worst cities historically for murder and crime.

  • Norm

    Ben is once again in his finger pointing mode. I believe the truth is more like:

    No sooner had the media discovered the YouTube profile page for Jared Lee Loughner — charged with killing six people, including federal Judge John M. Roll and a 9-year-old girl, and wounding 13 others, including Rep. Gabrielle Giffords, D-Ariz., in a shooting in Tucson Saturday — than speculation began about the favorite books Loughner listed there.
    Conservatives pointed to Loughner’s citation of “The Communist Manifesto” as proof that he was a leftist maniac and liberals interpreted his enthusiasm for Ayn Rand’s “We, the Living” as evidence that he was a right-winger.

    Other books on Loughner’s list (the profile was created on Dec. 20) include the children’s classics “Alice’s Adventures in Wonderland,” “Peter Pan” and “The Phantom Tollbooth.” He also claimed to have admired Adolf Hitler’s “Mein Kampf.” But the idea that this list will tell us much about Loughner and any political motives he had for shooting those 19 people is sorely misguided. Anyone who takes the time to watch the 22-year-old college student’s videos ought to be able to see that clearly enough.

    As the New York Times remarked on Sunday, the garbled, rambling and generally incomprehensible statements included in the videos (which consist of text only) are “consistent with the delusions produced by a psychotic illness like schizophrenia, which develops most often in the teens or 20s.” Loughner’s book list is also consistent with a bright, curious, rebellious teenager whose life has been arrested and derailed by just such an illness. In fact, the only surprising thing about that list is that it doesn’t include “The Catcher in the Rye,” a novel important to two other mentally ill shooters: Mark David Chapman (who killed John Lennon) and John Hinckley, who tried to assassinate Ronald Reagan.

    The sole ideological thread running through Loughner’s list is an inchoate anti-authoritarianism. It’s likely that what attracted him to “Mein Kampf” and “The Communist Manifesto” was less the political thinking in either book than their aura of the forbidden, the sensation that he was defying the adults around him by daring to read either one. The rest of his favorites — “One Flew Over the Cuckoo’s Nest,” “Brave New World,” “Animal Farm” and “Fahrenheit 451″ — depict deceitful and oppressive regimes committed to squelching individual initiative and thought.

    • libertytrain

      first finger pointing on this site was by a lib leftist regular – the big “D” – quickly followed by several other regular lib leftist posters – pointing fingers greatly outstretched at the rest of us.

      • Karolyn

        What are you talking about???? Not my take at all!

        • bob wire

          Karolyn, ` we are left to believe he didn’t read the OP (original post) or that it should left to go without “any” oppositional response.

          I find the op’s (Ben Crystal) posting extremely inflammatory in view of this mornings back drop, requiring me to take stock in the very nature of the beast I attempt to address this morning.

          I have not yet so much as begun to respond to BC thread post, it’s going to take the rest of this day to cool down. I’m not yet convinced that it’s worthy any response.

          • Karolyn

            You’re right, Bob. I often let my fingers speak before I really think about it and hate doing that.

      • eddie47d

        The first one to bring up the issue yesterday was Patrick and then Eddie W. Both “conservative” commenter’s. I responded to Patrick so to say say we instigated the story line is rather absurd. Jeremy’s comment today was rather subdued so who is ruffling the feathers.

        • libertytrain

          actually the big “D” brought it up first on Saturday as soon as news seemed to break on it.

          • libertytrain

            I have only referred to the finger pointing as news of this horrible event broke:
            2011/01/08 at 4:53 pm
            Denniso to Eddie- Restoring the American Dream
            “We all know which side in this country has been stoking the fires of violence for the past 10 yrs. During the last election cycle some Democratic workers were shot and killed. Now we have a Democratic Rep in Tucson shot and at least 6 people killed in the tragedy,one of the dead a 9 yr old girl. The inflamatory language of the right is responsible for these killings as they shout repeatedly that we need revolution,that ballots may not be enough,that liberals are traitors,that Obama is a marxist. All of that and more makes up much of the comments on this site and that’s all it takes to trigger and unbalanced person to take up violence. Everyone here and elsewhere who uses such language and makes thinly veiled threats on political leaders shares in the blame for these killings.”

            Shameful for the rightwing extremists,Arizona and this country. Six dead, a little girl, and maybe more among the injured. Disgusting!”

          • Denniso

            And I agree…the killer is unstable. The rhetoric of violence, guns, revolution, demonizing and calling political opponents traitors, as well as villifying the gov’t and president can of course contribute to an unstable person acting out w/ violence. No one with any sense doubts that. Most,not all, of the violent rhetoric comes from the party that does the bidding of the NRA and engages in hatespeech and fearmongering. Listen to limbaugh and Savage and then tell me you disagree. Words have consequences,like we tell our children.

          • JeffH

            libertytrain, you are 100% accurate in your comment and backed it up with a copy of the iitial comment by Denniso. Be careful what you paste because Denniso doesn’t like that stuff as I found out…I’m sure you know what I mean…

          • libertytrain

            JeffH – I have nothing to fear on this site. You know that and neither do you. Denniso just proves himself over and over again to be bogus – especially lately.

          • Denniso

            You guys are so clueless and childish. This site has been peppered w/ overt and subtle threats for all the time I’ve been here. I may get angry or flippant at some of the stupid,bigotted and malicious comments here,but I never come close to threatening anyone….politicians or people here. You ignore the actual threats,hate and bigotry/racism from the rightwing extremists here and focus on those of us who try to call those people on their comments directed at groups of people and our president.

            Oh, I forgot,JeffH is one of those rightwing extremists. Liberty just sounds like a tepid follower who wants to try to malign people who call the extremists on their hate game and who has a general distaste for Democrats/liberals/Obama.

          • libertytrain

            You are most certainly entitled to your perception. It’s your personal liberty. And I am equally entitled to mine and don’t mind at all how tepid (sweet word – feels warm and cozy) I appear to you.

  • http://n.cates@cox.net Norman F.

    Bob Wire: What?

  • Eric Bischoff

    Cartoon caption
    “Clueless hypocritical Ben throws more gas onto the fire.”

    Overheated political rhetoric. Hate spewing hypocritical religious zealots, uneducated ignorant masses, absent parenting, self serving manipulating media, massive deregulation, uncontrolled easy access to guns. A PERFECT STORM!

    I’d like to propose some food for thought. And before you go nuts, yes I am aware of the 2nd amendment but like everything else in the constitution and the bible it does seem that we have a comprehension and interpretation problem.

    We even have two differently punctuated versions of the 2nd Amendment.
    • A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.
    • A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the People to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.

    Language matters. Precise language matters even more.
    Some choose to only see the right to bear arms. Me, me me.
    Other see it as part of a well regulated militia. Us us us.

    Jared Loughner certainly does not fall into the well regulated militia category. Everything about him screams “Should never be allowed to be near a gun” But yet here we are incapable of regulating this properly and keeping that perfect storm from happening. I think it’s partly because we can’t stop and think things through in calm and rational ways. We get stuck at the me me me and I want my gun.

    Here’s something else to ponder. We require all to have car insurance. Why? Cars can do damage and even kill people. Therefore we require that not only you must purchase insurance you must also register and inspect your car yearly. Why aren’t people up in arms about that? There’s a whole industry and jobs associated with it. You can own a car and not register it or have insurance but you better not be driving on PUBLIC streets.

    Why not apply that thinking to a few other areas in our life that we can’t seem to ever agree on or resolve. Why not try something different. How about anyone can own a gun but they must purchase lliability insurance as well and they must register it and be tested for competency yearly. Why? Because guns can cause of lot of expensive damage. If you have to register and inspect your car yearly, why not apply the same to gun ownership. What are you afraid of? That’s the well regulated part of the speech that always gets left out!

    You have to admit that we must also question the intelligence and reasoning behind allowing people to carry unregistered concealed weapons. At political rallies, in bars and now in schools! I guess Columbine and Virginia Tech were not enough yet.

    Why not look at health insurance the same way. Many people are up in arms over the healthcare bill and I venture to say that the only thing that really sets them off is the part about being forced to buy insurance. I think it’s a stupid compromise. Me personnaly I would much rather have a public single payer option. I know that would be most cost efficient by far. But we can’t get past that – you can’t tell me what to do.

    So please take a step back and look at it this way. Just think about this. If a person does not take care of themself and they get sick with an infectious disease and they don’t get help because they can’t afford it or refuse to. Hey it’s a free country. If they stay on their land or in their house and never go into PUBLIC, so be it. But the minute that they go into PUBLIC, serve you food, handle your children, work in hospitals, now they have a responsibility not to infect others. How do we deal with that problem. Roulette. Rool the dice. Too bad!

    Maybe a more enlightened society might want to look at that and decide that since we now have billions living on the planet and with airplane travel things move around pretty fast and outbreaks can happen pretty quickly. We don’t have too many choices. How do we insure that all have access to healthcare for the common good? I don’t see how forcing people to buy insurance is a solution. It’s not enforceable and it’s not right. Therfore it does not even come close to solving the problems.

    But on the other hand if we looked at it as spreading out the RISK through a public single payer option, It’s not such a big bad boogie man. It’s merely a cooperative non profit solution. What are we AFRAID of.

    Bottom line we need to stop being so sure ONLY WE have the answers and we need to listen to each other in a respectful way. There’s a lot to be gained by that and very little downside. Oh my God, I shut up today and listened to someone I never agree with and I actually learned something.

    • Michael J.

      Eric Bischoff,
      Nuts!

      • eddie47d

        Nothing nuts about what he said….we all need to listen and learn. Protect our second amendment rights but be more responsible about it. You will say that YOU are responsible and the issue get’s shoved under the rug. Nothing changes and nothing learned.

    • Bitter Libertarian

      A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free State,<[NOTE THE COMMA] the right of the People to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.

      A well regulated driving population being necessary for the economic success of a city, the right of the people to keep and bear cars shall not be infringed.

      I can see your point HOWEVER why does the negative actions of one nutjob justify the regulation of imposing fines, and regulations on tens of millions?

      I am sure Eric being the responsible person you are, that you do not drive drunk. If you were required to pay DRUNKARD INSURANCE would that be ok to you?

      Not attacking you, just hoping you see that I dont see it as fair that I have to suffer more costs, fines, or regulation as a result of one freak.

      We would do much better to straighten things out in our homes, families, and schools. Freedom & Liberty need not be attacked as a result of an isolated tragedy as sad as it is.

    • Angel

      I don’t agree with any of what you have said. The government (at all levels) is confiscating to much of our work product. At what point does it become slavery. We are fast approaching that point if we are not already there. Personal responsibility Eric.

      • Bitter Libertarian

        True. What far too many people DO NOT understand is that those that argue for more regulation, control, limits, etc, will soon find their own ideas, opinions and lives encroached upon and regulated.

        The Freedom & Liberty to express your opinion and desires only exists as long as there is freedom to discuss, share, and disagree.

        • eddie47d

          It’s not an anything goes society where we can do anything we want (until we get caught). We can’t talk about personal responsibility if we are all being irresponsible in our talk and actions. There are speed limits for a reason and you will seldom get stopped for speeding if you do speed. You do have to take responsibility if you do get caught. We can all say what we want and insult whomever we want but be prepared to take responsibility for what you say or do. This Loughnor kid read conservative books and far left books and several fantasy books in between. Psychiatrists have said if he hadn’t shot Gifford then he eventually would have gone after someone else and that could have been a Republican. He was a troubled young man with little responsibility for those around him.

          • Bitter Libertarian

            You still havent Justified why I (a responsible gun owner) need to suffer ANY consequence for this nuts action.

            Like I said…I am sure Eddie47d being the responsible person you are, that you do not drive drunk. If you were required to pay DRUNKARD INSURANCE or give up your car would that be ok to you?

          • independant thinker

            Bitter, despite his claims of being all for private ownership of firearms I have never seen a post by eddie on the subject of firearms that did not call for more restrictions on private ownership.

          • eddie47d

            B.L. Driving drunk in my state get’s you a DUI and they do take away your car (Driving privileges) and insurance rates go up.

          • eddie47d

            I.T. I haven’t seen any posts where you want anything else but the wild west. Does that make us even? I doubt it?

          • Robert Smith

            Lib says: “If you were required to pay DRUNKARD INSURANCE or give up your car would that be ok to you?”

            Sounds to me like you might think buyinig an indulgence to drive drunk makes it OK. It isn’t.

            Drunk (or drivers under the influence of anything, even legal drugs like Contac) drivers SHOULD have their cars taken away.

            More people die from DUI than from guns.

            Rob

          • independant thinker

            Means I win eddie because the so called wild west was actualy quite tame. You have been watching too many Clint Eastwood westerns.

          • eddie47d

            I was actually reffering to the present times in our big cities so I should have clarified.

    • JC

      “the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed”
      You’re right … language matters.

    • TIME

      Eric,
      An interesting post, but what you seem to forget is that this has all been to the Supreeme Court before.
      As they sided with its the “INDIVIDUALS” rights to own guns as they are the backbone of this country.
      You will also find they used the argument that due to this very issue is why the Japanese during WW II did not attempt an assualt on the US.
      Thus the facts support the wording as its the “personal responsibility” of each citizen to bare arms to protect the basic fabric of this nation.
      As in if the nation is not only attacked from outside its boundaries, but also from within its confines.

      There are no winners, here there are only loosers.

      6 persons lost their lifes. One of the wounded is a friend she’s still not quite back with us 100%, Yes; I refer to Gabby. She would stand by what I have just stated and if any of you knew her you would know that.

      I am saddened by these events and it breaks my heart to wittness the behavior of the NEW YORK TIMES, CBS, NBC, ABC, & MSNBC, CNN, HLN, and the gaggel of PIGS that they employ to report the news, much of it just made up out of thin air.

      Don’t any of you find it totaly strange that not a “single alledged LEADER” has stepped up to the plate and acted in a way that quells this issue? In a way that bonds us together in this time of saddness and loss.
      Thier behavior clearly displays just how inept our alledged leaders are.

      • Teresa

        Time…I agree w/you….and I do see the circle closing. The circle in which congress has weaved for themself over our rights. I wish everyone would open their eyes, step out of their boxes and look at the events taking place…the wikileaks, the media coverage of this and how congress is reacting to it, the UN meetings…the whole picture. Please wake up people…How much do you value your freedom???
        Has anyone even stopped for one second and thought about when this man goes to trial??? Obama comes to the rescue, says the fbi is taking over, he gets a high attorney….how do you think the outcome of this will end???? Now what would happen if he were tried in AZ court?

  • Bob

    I wonder where a Moslem who had a page with 23 bulls eyes on it like Ms. Palin did would be sitting now…..

    • JUKEBOX

      Probably getting a recess appointment from Obama!

  • Mick

    Mick says:
    January 11, 2011 at 8:25 am
    JIM says:
    January 11, 2011 at 7:12 am
    HOW ABOUT ALL THOSE FAR RIGHT PEOPLE SPEWING THE HATE AND VIOLANCE. YOU KNOW RUSH , GLEN BECK,HANNITY, AND MOST OF THE GOP. IT IS AMAZING HOW THE REPUBLICANS CAN START SOMETHING AND THEN TRY TO BLAME THE DEMOCRATS. THEY ARE SUCH HIPOCRITS
    ********************
    JIM……It looks to me that the hypocrisy lies in your camp.
    You say that the Republicans start something and try to blame the democrats,how many decades has the left continuously held protests marches while the right sat on the side line doing nothing.You don’t like what’s happening right now because other folks finally had enough of the left crap and are beginning to rebel against you to save our country.
    You can bet that if there was anything to discredit our country the left were the first involved. race, pay, off the walls rights designed to benefit criminals and the list go on and on,,,,,,,,,
    What happened in Tucson has nothing to do with any party or other person than the killer, as for the hate , just look at your post and comments made by Olbermann, Krugman, the Tucson sheriff and the stupid media that has been plaguing our air waves for decades, talk about hating the people who think differently, if you libs can’t convince others to veer toward your mind set you slander them in order to destroy them..
    The way I see it, the left has pushed the envelope for too long, I don’t hate people on the left but I sure don’t want anything to do with them or their agenda.
    I see a snake, I don’t hurt it, I just walk away from it………….

  • JACKIE PHILLIPS

    oKAY!!! I am not a O”Bama fan and I am pro constitution, but bringing politics into this event is deplorable. I do not care who did it first (think CNN did) but stop. A nut killed 6 people,including a 9 year old, give the family sympathy and pray for the survivors. There is no political currency to be gained by politicizing this. THIS IS PATHETC!!!.

    • JUKEBOX

      The sheriff started it within an hour of the incident, when he gave his “OPINION” and not the facts.

  • Patriot

    How come the Lame Media did not come out as strong against the Fort Food massacre and the attempted Time Square bombing? Was it maybe because they were Muslim’s? These are sometimes the consequences of living in a semi-free society; there are nuts out there and this can happen to any of us at anytime! I look forward to a time when I can learn and be proud of our media, sadly this is not the time!

    • Curtis

      I disagree. I think Fox News was very vocal about Fort Hood and their biggest stock holder (outside the Murdoch Family) is a muslim.

  • BABUSHSKA

    This tragedy in Tucson should serve as a wake-up call to parents, school administrators, and all others in authority who come in contact
    with an individual who appears to have serious mental health issues. It is simply not enough anymore for a college, a company, or even the military, (ie. Fort Hood shootings) to continue to overlook someone with apparent mental illness, or tell an individual that they are barred from returning until they receive a mental health evaluation, and then wash their hands of him. There must be follow-up by those in authority to ensure that these types of people receive the help they need, if in the very least, to ultimately protect society. Why weren’t Loughren’s parents contacted after the college barred him from returning? Our societal responsibility to each other has totally broken down. And yet, are we not to be our brother’s keeper? The blame for this tragedy belongs on each one of us who look the other way, who refuse to get involved, who hide under the cloak of political correctness, or fear being intrusive.

  • Don

    “You have to admit that we must also question the intelligence and reasoning behind allowing people to carry unregistered concealed weapons. At political rallies, in bars and now in schools! I guess Columbine and Virginia Tech were not enough yet.”

    Correct me if I’m wrong, but all but two staes require a concealed carry permit to carry a weapon. What does registering the weapon itself do??? Murder is illegal. Attempted murder is illegal. A person who is insane does not give a hoot whether he is doing something illegal. If one sane person or more…had been legally carrying a weapon at Virginia Tech, I bet we would have more people alive from that tragedy as well!!! Think about it this way….unless there is some sort of supe laser beam that shoots down from the heavens wiping out all guns at once and forevermore…..If you take guns from the people that abide the laws….only the criminals (and insane) will have and use them. It’s unfortunate that some of these nuts slip through the cracks and are able to purchase a weapon legally. But you cant catch them all in a nation of so many… anymore than you can expect a laser beam to erase all guns from the planet!!

  • http://(n/a) Marv

    As far as the GRAMMER excuse attributed to the Tucson Killer, there IS HISTORIC PROOF to his “ranting” : Anyone remember none other than BILL CLINTON litterally STUMPING CONGRESS with his INFAMOUS statament about sex & the simple word ” I-S ” : It went something like this ; It all depends on the proper defination : What ever the defination of the WORD IS , IS ??? Anyone remember this LEGAL GRAMMER STUNT ???

    Maybe the Tucson Killer IS RIGHT ! The GOVERNMENT is messing with GRAMMER !

    ///MRB

  • bargeman

    Do all of you realize the JARED LEE LOUGHNER is a result of our liberal socialist education system. From K-1 throught Collage. It is the worse in our higfher education schools where socialist, comminst, murders,bombers.menally retarded teachers tell your children what is right.It is going to get worse in this deranged and depraved country.

    • eddie47d

      Then all his previous teachers should be interviewed to find out how he fit into school and how he adapted to THEIR education system. You could be correct or 100% wrong and until that fact is known then you are only blowing smoke.

  • Raggs

    The democraps see this as an open door to push more gun control.
    Not to mention further restrictions on free speach.

    I figure the craps create a crisis to push an agenda and that is all they see… They do not see the poor people that this tragedy affected intsead they have dreams of a grand nazi state.

  • Jean Chappel

    While everyone argues, I would like to point out that a very important Federal Judge who was going to rule against OBama on some critical issues to us all has been assassinated here and all the media is focused on the blame game. How convenient for evil, don’t you think.

    • Karolyn

      Give me a break! Evil, Shmevil!

      • kate8

        Karolyn – Yes, evil. EVIL, EVIL, EVIL.

        You are just too blind to see it.

      • JC

        Oh come on Karolyn…like its never happened before?

    • eddie47d

      More nazi talk and assassination drivel. I double that “Give me a break”!

    • Stan Smith

      Interesting! I remember The tabloids magazine insisted That Edwards had an affair and fathered a child, For once they did tell the truth, Tabloids is mostly lies I was surprised the told the truth for once! Okay is a link about this. nope! it’s not a US news site! Then who know it could be true on this one! anything could happen!

      http://www.eutimes.net/2011/01/top-us-federal-judge-assassinated-after-threat-to-obama-agenda/

      • kate8

        Stan Smith – Thank you so much for that link! I’ve read some of this before, but you have to look to find it.

        It’s exactly as I first thought. This was a planned event, meant to give warning to any who might try to stand in the way of Obama’s push forward. Judge Roll had just ruled against Obama’s grab of American’s money! And Ms. Gifford had dared to defy Pelosi.

        Wait and see if anyone tries to rule against Obama now.

        It seems that Europe gets better news coverage than we do. Good God, we are sitting ducks.

        I would recommend everyone read this link provided by Stan Smith. If you think you were awake before, wait until you see how dumb we really are.

  • max

    The hidden factor here, as we argue amongst ourselves at the water cooler, is that “The Solution” we will be “given” to all of this is going to be restriction of free speech and the unincumbered exchange of ideas! Now is EXACTLY the time to raise our heads up out of the redstate/bluestate cloud created for us and see the bigger picture!

  • Pat Ridge

    I wrote in the comment section of the USA TODAY about 4 years after similar gun massacre this will happen again and again and again until America does something about it’s crazy gun laws.Sadly I was so right and after the dust settles after the Tuscon massacre nothing will change.What will it take before action is taken,a mad man with a M60 killing 100 people in a Mall—please spare me “The right bear to arms”,”Guns don’t kill people……”.How did this nut in Tuscon get his hands on a gun,when the US ARMY would not take him because they thought he was strange.God Help America.

    • Raggs

      Crazy people kill people!
      The crazy people do not give a rats ass how many laws that you have!
      A criminal does not abide by laws and will always own guns.. So what makes you think gun control is the answer?

      • Bitter Libertarian

        Exactly.

      • 45caliber

        Correct.

        • kate8
          • 45caliber

            kate:

            This is indeed interesting. I’m not sure of all their logic being real but some of the facts are definately interesting. Thanks for drawing my attention to it.

            This is the reason I try to read a few English papers every day. They like to bring out info the media here won’t for fear it might put the government in a bad light.

          • 45caliber

            I don’t know about any assassinated but I do know that a federal judge was basically framed by the IRS some years ago and went to prison for eight plus year. He ruled against them in some judgement because, as he said, they were badly wrong. His accoutant, who did his income taxes, was told by the IRS to deliberately make a big mistake. The accountant did, since he had been told if he didn’t they would take his license. The judge, trusting the accountant, signed it. So the IRS “found” the errors, ruled that it had been criminal, and put him away. The accoutant felt guilty and came forward – but the judge still went to prison.

          • kate8

            45 – Think about it. This kind of thing has been going on for a long time.

            There is much evidence that Lincoln and both Kennedy’s were the victim of a sinister plot by the PTB. Also, that the OK bombing and, of course 9/ll were false flags set up to bring about fear and more legislation. Who knows what they promise the guy chosen to be the patsy, or how they get them to do it. They usually end up dead, anyway.

            Have you read about MKultra? Jesse Ventura did a program on it, too. Apparently the military has been conducting mind-control experiments on people for a long time (just like the shooter said), and they simply issue some kind of trigger and they carry out whatever deed they’ve been programmed to do. This is not science fiction. And there are many more of them walking around, just waiting to be set in motion.

            The lone gunman idea is losing credibility, don’t you think? I believe this WAS an assassination. I thought that from the start. The Judge had just ruled against Obama. Ms. Gifford defied Pelosi by voting against her. They don’t want any real challenges to their agenda. They’ve warned that they won’t allow Obamacare to be repealed.

            You didn’t think Obama/Reid/Pelosi were going to just roll over after the last election, did you? They are dead serious about completing their plans by 2012, and they aren’t about to let the people get in their way. I knew they’d pull something to bring wayward Congresspeople into line. (They said we should expect more acts of terrorism.) Just watch what they do.

            Call me crazy if you want, but I feel this in my bones.

    • http://marcum@wildblue.net coal miner

      Pat Ridge,

      Here lately I think the army is strange.HA ha ha ha

    • Bitter Libertarian

      “How did this nut in Tuscon get his hands on a gun,when the US ARMY would not take him because they thought he was strange.”

      The Second Amendment is the right of self defence. Do you really believe that the police can protect you 24/7?

      Do UNDERSTAND that Tens of Millions or RESPONSIBLE gun owners are in the USA? Why restrict self defence of the millions because of one NUT?

      Do you believe the pens are responsible for writing errors, computers are the cause of internet porn, bullying and internet harrasment?

      Do you believe knives are the reason people get cut?

      I politely suggest you think over the PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY we all should WANT to Live by and then CONSIDER GOD BLESSING AMERICA.

      Imagine a different situation where every person there was ARMED…that NUT would have been dead or knocked in the head with a gun before he got one shot off.

      You may also want to EXPLORE other news sources that publish the thousands of crimes and murders AVOIDED because of an ARMED CITIZEN.

      • 45caliber

        I’ve always said that if you want to end most violent crime, simply require all adults to carry a gun at all times. Only someone as crazy as this guy would consider trying to commit a crime in the presence of so many people he KNEW were carrying a gun too.

      • Al Sieber

        Bitter L., I agree, but that gives them one more reason. they can’t enforce the laws on the books now.

    • BABUSHSKA

      Pat: The army didn’t accept Loughren because he failed a urinalysis which showed drug use.

    • Teresa

      And when a criminal breaks into your home one evening to harm you or your children and he has a gun, would you rather have a bat, knife or a gun for protection????

    • JUKEBOX

      He got a gun by lying about his use of drugs on his “LEGAL” application to buy this gun. He already committed a felony by perjuring himself on the gun app.

      • 45caliber

        I suspect he broke more than the single felony you mentioned when he signed that form.

    • 45caliber

      England has banned all guns except single-shot shotguns in the hands of farmers who need to protect their crops from rabbits, etc. And even then they must get permission first from the government.

      Recently one spokeman for the police in England announced that there were more guns in England today than when they passed the law banning them. But he said there was a difference. The ones legally owned were hunting or sporting weapons for the most part. The ones now are fully automatic weapons in the hands of gangs who are using them for criminal actions. All were smuggled into the country – most from Russia or that general area.

  • Bitter Libertarian

    The shooting was criminal and will, at this critical time in our nations History, have many negative effects on Freedom & Liberty.

    I am not disregarding those Murdered or injured by this sick Criminal, only the millions who now may very well now be branded, viewed, attacked, or harassed for expressing a strong opinion of the many unsatisfactory politicians in office. I am one of those who has spoken harshly of Politicians and how they have allowed crimes against the Constitution to be perpetrated! I too have said that its disturbing how police behave Unconstitutionally against the citizens they claim to “Protect & serve”. Granted I know that I would NEVER do anything remotely like with that wackadoo did, but I know how the “game is played.” I heard a few of alleged murderers opinions and I must say that the media did a GREAT FRICKING Job “herding” those who are unhappy with politicians into the “nutty corral.”

    Fine, the politicians want kinder words…I can get flowery, doesnt change my disgust with their treasonous actions.

    The media needs to be right sized in regards to their opinions as well.

  • http://marcum@wildblue.net coal miner

    Ben Crystal,

    Where do you get thats its just the left? You got both the left and the right to blame for it.Lets be fair.

    • JUKEBOX

      If you want to be fair, blame the Sheriff who did not pursue the complaints that had been filed against Loughner the “POT HEAD”.

  • jopa

    Time;Your the one looking stupid with your glock comment.RHS was right in pointing out the glock with a thirty round ammo clip was outlawed until 2004.The killer was actually reloading with another clip when they were able to take him down.Technically speaking the clip not the gun was outlawed in the past.

    • independant thinker

      Jopa, once again the 30 round magazine was NOT banned under Clinton. What was banned was the manufacture and sale of new ones. all existing ones were legal and could be sold and re-sold as desired. The legal availability of extended (over 10 rounds) magazines continued un-interupted.

      • eddie47d

        What is the real purpose of the Glock or several other higher powered weapons? It serves no purpose for hunting or protection of your home or car. Some use hunting and home protection as the reason they want guns and I agree with that. The majority of Police don’t even carry high powered weapons except for SWAT teams. Yet the Glock is allowed on city streets and when it is used does serious damage to several persons. I have always believed those types of weapons have no place in our society or at least not in public. If someone believes they have a right to insurrection or war or want to be prepared for Armageddon and that is their reason then bring that up. Give us all a solid reason why they should be allowed at all.

        • JUKEBOX

          I carry a Browning HiPower that I have owned for fifty years, and was manufactured in Belgium a few years before I was born. It has a 9mm capacity of 13 rounds from the factory. Why should I be criticized for carrying a gun like this in these crazy times?

        • independant thinker

          Shows just how little you actualy know about firearms. The
          Glock pistol, usualy in 9mm or 40 cal. is the prefered weapon of the majority of police departments in America. The Glock pistol is no different than a Ruger, S&W, Colt, or any other semi-auto pistol on the market as far as function any difference is in minor details.

          • independant thinker

            I should have addressed this to eddie.

          • JUKEBOX

            Apology accepted, you just completed my very thought.

          • JeffH

            independant thinker, eddie’s arguement is based solely on a lack of knowledge and has more holes in it than a block of swiss cheese.

            “HI POWERED”…sounds a lot like “ASSAULT WEAPON”. I guess ignorance is bliss.

        • Searcher

          eddie47d
          Your arguement is hilarious. It’s even funnier since you have no idea what you are talking about. Just a typical programmed response to guns.
          If ignorance is bliss, you must have reached nirvana.

          • independant thinker

            He ain’t made it there yet because he is still posting stuff.

          • eddie47d

            No ignorance in my question and why do you need that type of weapon unless you are totally paranoid. If you ever have to use it you will also be killing innocent people since you can’t totally control the fire power. I personally don’t want you carrying a Glock when I go into a grocery store and it’s being robbed. Your spray of bullets will kill more than the robber.

          • bob wire

            eddie, this particular piece has developed over the years to become a “working man” handgun of choice for many reason. Reliability, accuracy, speed, balance, comfort to carry and fire, clip capacity and a wide range of ammo for various demands. It’s really not that powerful but it can chamber hotter loads and become powerful at the cost of shooting comfort.

            But it’s not about the gun, guns have no brain and never get angry or upset, they have no bias or hold a political affiliation.

            This is about a sick man with a sick mind that had consumed a steady diet of poison and managed to rationalize the killing of a child and several unarmed senior grandparents citizens just to place a pistol through a unarmed, unguarded young female politicians head. Thinking that somehow, it needed to be done and was for him to do. In his mind, he is a hero!

            I hope he lives to be a 100 years old and never sees the sun, never hears another kind word, never sees another kind face all of his days.

          • independant thinker

            “No ignorance in my question and why do you need that type of weapon unless you are totally paranoid.”

            Oh yes eddie, total ignorance on the subject. I regularly fire two more powerful pistols than the Glock 9mm and have absolutely no trouble controling them. One isn’t very accurate so I only fire it for fun but the other is quite acurate and I can empty it into a 6″ desert plate (rapid fire) at 25 yards. As I stated above the 9mm Glock is the pistol required by many many of our police agencies. If the pistol was as uncontrolable as you claim there is no way they would require their officers to carry it.

  • JC

    While I sincerely despise the left and it’s Socialist crap, I believe that it has been the fault of every administration since Andrew Jackson to have been involved in greater government encroachment, greater social engineering, dumbing down school kids and removing American values from American life.
    The common denominator is the diveid and conquer tactic employed by the people who own and direct our White House.
    The end result…”Everybody” is angry.
    We are going to be seeing a lot more of this over the next two years,
    unless we divorce ourselves from the Fed and the UN. Only then can the healing and re-taking of the American Republic begin.

    Prayer’s for all who were hurt at Tucson.

    • Bitter Libertarian

      Well said, Bravo!

  • Mark

    Even Jesus said, “raise a child in the way they should go, and when they grow old, they won’t depart.” This is exactly why public education will not ever give in to vouchers so parents that cannot afford to can send their children to the school of their choosing. The days of teaching reading, writing, and arithmetic are obviously over. Now we teach young children how to use a condom, we teach them to be politically correct, we teach them nothing of our founders and civics. Is it any wonder that we are turning out people that are unable to compete in todays society. They are trying and succeeding in dumbing down American kids. It is the only way to implement a socialistic/communistic one-world government view.
    Parents, teach your children who and what America is really about. They may seem uninterested now. But the reverse indoctrination works too. Raise your children to be Christian, and constitutionalists. Because they sure are getting a skewed view of the world where the majority of them are being taught now.
    And teachers. Please consider what I am saying. I don’t wish harm to you and I don’t want to see people get fired. I want the truth taught. Right now, that is not happening. Using our kids for social engineering never has succeeded and I don’t see why now should be any different.Right now public education, sometimes not even realized by the teachers, are doing EXACTLY what Hitler did. The Hitler youth grew up not knowing why they hated the Jewish people. They just knew they did. Now they are being trained to hate conservatism. We have to be strong in our convictions to be able to raise up our kids in the way they should go, and that is with Judeo, Christian principles.
    God Bless and thank God we already know the outcome because it has all been prophesized about in the book of Revelations by the apostle John

  • Mick

    Pat Ridge says:
    January 11, 2011 at 8:44 am
    I wrote in the comment section of the USA TODAY about 4 years after similar gun massacre this will happen again and again and again until America does something about it’s crazy gun laws.Sadly I was so right and after the dust settles after the Tuscon massacre nothing will change.What will it take before action is taken,a mad man with a M60 killing 100 people in a Mall—please spare me “The right bear to arms”,”Guns don’t kill people……”.How did this nut in Tuscon get his hands on a gun,when the US ARMY would not take him because they thought he was strange.God Help America.
    *****************************
    Get real Pat Ridge ……People in most European countries don’t have the right to own guns except for shot guns for hunting.
    Are you saying they don’t have killings in Europe ??? If you believe that you’re in serious need of a reality check…….
    And where do they get the guns when the government has the monopoly on them .

    • eddie47d

      9,534 people were killed by guns in 2009 in the US. Very few gun deaths occur in Europe,Canada or Australia.

      • JUKEBOX

        It sounds like you need to move to Canada or England so you won’t be so afraid!

        • 45caliber

          Many years ago now, when I was in college, my psychology teacher told us about a test that had been done with rats.

          They could continually add rats to a pen without a problem until they reached a certain population density. As soon as they reached that limit, the rats would turn on each other, stealing, fighting, killing, etc.

          I think in many parts of the world, we have reached that limit with humans. The more populated an area is, the more likely you are to be a victim of a crime.

      • 45caliber

        eddie:

        Don’t believe the propaganda. You might say that “very few gun deaths are in…” but that doesn’t mean that as many people aren’t murdered.

        A few years ago five men in Austrailia broke into a man’s apartment and attacked him with bats and pipe. He tore a sword from the wall (his grandfather captured it in WWII) and killed one of them AFTER he had been injured enough to put him in the hospital for a month.

        The police and prosecutor were more concerned about him using an ornamental sword to protect himself with than the men who attacked him. They were trying to figure out how to charge him with using an “assualt weapon” so they could punish him.

        Guns are simply a tool. They were made to kill things. And they were made as a tool to protect yourself. Taking them away just makes it harder to protect yourself. It doesn’t solve the crime in the first place as many (like you) seem to think.

      • 45caliber

        eddie:

        Oh, another thing. Your list of gun deaths do NOT include JUST murders here like they do in other countries. They include accidents, suicides, and police shootouts with criminals.

        In fact, Russia has the most gun deaths (overall) in the world. Japan is number 2 due to suicides there even though guns and ammunition are both illegal there.

        • eddie47d

          When did I say you can’t have a gun to defend yourself? Don’t exaggerate the situation. Gun deaths in other countries: South Africa is number one and this is by percentage to population. Columbia,Thailand,Guatemala,Brazil,Estonia,Mexico then the USA. Estonia is the only European country and “mother” Russia wasn’t even on the list. We’ll both have to keep checking on that and Japan was at the bottom of the list. Suicides is more of an honor thing in Japan rather than a killing.

          • JeffH

            “When did I say you can’t have a gun to defend yourself? Don’t exaggerate the situation.” Did you just assume 45caliber said that because I can’t find it in his comment?

          • eddie47d

            Okay Old Jeff; Caliber said “Taking them away just makes it harder to protect yourself…(like you) seem to think”.Clean those glasses off buddy.

          • JeffH

            …and???? He still did say what you inferred.

        • JeffH

          45caliber, what I find telling is that the more people that own guns have effected the violent crime rate in the US. Violent crimes are at a 30 year low and continue to drop based on FBI statistics, not the stats of Brady or Bloomberg.

  • Joe

    There needs to be more investigation into the last four years of Loughner’s time line. In otherwords, what happened to direct this person toward Giffords?

    Giffords is a centrist, a Blue Dog Democrat (ex-Republican), pro-gun, and extremely popular in DC, with both Republicans, as well as Democrats. In other words, this young woman has the potential to be Presidential material. If she survives this incident, intact, I have no doubt that her political career will, most certainly, be assured.

    This popularity would concern super liberal Democrats, such as Pelosi and others. Why? Because of her vast popularity, she would have the potential to eventually become Democratic Speaker of the House, or even run for President on the Democratic ticket. If I were a detective looking at this case, I’d be looking at who would stand to gain from killing Giffords, politically.

    As far a blaming Sarah Palin, well, Sarah’s been made an easy target by Republicans, Democrats and the liveral media. Truthfully, Sarah was doing fine, as Governer of Alaska, before McCain recruited her to run as his vice. He and his crew are to blame if there was any unhappiness on their part, because they didn’t like her true persona. They should have investigated her more closely, for personality match. As far as I’m concerned, I’m glad Palin is making money out of her situation. As far as her Presidential qualifications, I’ve seen worse actually make it into the Whitehouse. It would appear that you can simply be a front person, because it’s the people with the gold who truly rule.

    If there has been a “conspiricy” you can look at the Democratic party for the following reasons:

    Giffords is pro-gun ownership.
    Giffords is Pro-border and illegal immigrant control.
    Giffords believes in the Constitution of the United States of America.
    Giffords cares more about the Citizens of Arizona and the USA, than she does any political party.
    Giffords is her own person.

    For all the reasons listed, above, she’s a Republicans dream of a moderate Democrat, because she is someone who wouldn’t be making deals behind closed doors. She’s an open person and a very, very good person, someone the Republicans would be able to work with.

    Clearly, Giffords’ centrist leanings would not incure the rath of Republicans. She is a true moderate, which is something both parties are in desperate need of. As well, she is able draw legislators together, from both sides of the isle, for a common purpose; an invaluable skill for any polititian.

    Loughner may just turn out to be “Captain Insano” and the lone gunman. On the other hand, his high school persona and his college persona don’t match up. Something happened to this person between high school, and the age of 22, that pushed him over the edge. Even the notes left in his safe don’t make any sense. His retoric on the Internet, don’t make any sense. Either he’s schitzo, or, he’s been programmed.

    This situation reminds me, shockingly, of Robert Kennedy’s assasination. Sirhan Sirhan, to this day, does not remember shooting RFK.

    We know this Loughner shot, killed and wounded many people. If it turns out that he was just a crazy man on a mission, I say, put him down. But, before we put him down, we need to find out if he had any associates and/or missing periods of time that would have provided an opportunity to brainwash an already weak mind.

    • Raggs

      Isn’t it funny that all of the hate speach comes from the left?

      • bob wire

        I guess that all depends on where you find yourself standing Raggs and what bias you bring to the effort.

      • geller

        People have died and not one person has learned anything. Where did you see guns before the election? The teabaggers and their pistol packing mama’s. I wonder if Palin carries an AK47 when she takes her children to school. I agree with Barbara Bush. Palin should stay in Alaska. This part of the country is not to proud of her.

    • bob wire

      hmm? well it already been established that “Loughner” subscribed to many of the same complaints that you find voiced here on BOb Livingston’s Forum. “intrusive government”, “government run amuck” etc.

      For what that means? ~ I will without comment until more and clearer data comes forward.

      • Angel

        I noticed that too!!

      • Raggs

        Oh bob…

        Why do you find it so easy to blame everyone that does not agree with your political view’s… Why is that?

        • JUKEBOX

          That’s the liberal, left wing, progressive code of non ethics.

        • bob wire

          Ragg, if you would read my post, there is no blaming or labeling.

          My commentary was factual and I will leave it to you do all the labeling and assigning of any blame.

          If you don’t like the current “facts” just tells us you are not completely dead inside. That you might attack me for offering facts, tells us that serious rot is present.

          So how do you feel about that Raggs?

    • Karolyn

      Someone posted somewhere about the possibility of psychosis, specifically paranoid-schizophrenia, which generally does effect young men in their early 20s. It was also reported that he came from a severely dysfunctional family. The kid is just mentally ill, it didn’t necessarily have to be the result of anything that happened.

      • 45caliber

        I don’t even think he was “mentally ill” since that assumes that he can be cured. I think he was insane – plain crazy.

        • Karolyn

          No, 45, mental illness cannot be cured. It can be arrested with drugs and therapy, but it doesn’t necessarily go away unless the person is willing to delve into some pretty heavy-duty spiritual stuff.

          • 45caliber

            You hit the nail for a lot of things. He has to WANT to be cured. Just as a drug user or alcoholic has to WANT to be cured of that. Trying to cure him without his desire to be cured is a waste of time. And like a recovered alcoholic, he can slip back without any real push at all – making him forever dangerous.

    • eddie47d

      You are correct Joe she was for strong border control but also was against Arizona’s 1070 law.

    • 45caliber

      Giffords wasn’t quite as good as you seem to think. She rated a bare “C” with the NRA on guns. Take some of the anti-gun Dems for instance. Feinstein is very much against private ownership – except she carries one and insists that if she does get them banned, she needs to keep her own. It’s just ‘other people’ who don’t need them.

      • eddie47d

        NRA ratings are very political and they do use it against candidates.More ways to discredit good people.

      • JeffH

        eddie, the NRA ratings are just that, the NRA/ILA’s political measure of a candidates support for 2nd Amendement issues. Did you expect them to give Obama an A+ rating for signing the credit “card holders’ bill of rights”, which includes an amendment allowing firearms at the nation’s National Parks and wildlife refuges even though his record as a Senator was 100% anti-gun voting and he has a multitude of anti-gun appointees? DUH!

        • JeffH

          …discredit good people? NOT!

          • eddie47d

            They discredit and even threaten people that don’t vote their way. The 2nd Amendment Foundation and Gunowners of America are far worse in targeting political opponents. Hmmmm, Now there is voter intimidation or at least candidate intimidation.

          • JeffH

            Gee eddie, LMAO! I guess you wouldn’t mind providing your sources and I don’t mean your imagination. I belong to all three organizations and can’t recall them ever telling me who I could and couldn’t vote for. Now provide some proof or run and hide…hide…hide.

          • JeffH

            eddie, make up your mind…is it voter intimidation or is it candidate intimidation…there is a difference you know…

          • eddie47d

            It’s both dufuss if you learn how to read and pay attention.I receive E-Mails from GOA every week. Years ago I read the NRA magazine every month for about 10 years. Not so much anymore but I do see their rating lists and what they say about candidates.The GOA does more demonizing of other people so I can see where you’d fit right in.

          • JeffH

            …edddiiieee, the more you comment the stupid-er you appear. Where, and I’ve been a member for over 30 years, do these organizations;
            1. Tell people they have to vote a certain way
            2. Threaten and intimidate anybody…didn’t you know that is SUPPOSED TO BE AGAINST THE LAW?(think ACORN & The Black Panthers)

            Once again you’re chewing on your shoe leather and cannot produce one shred of evidence to support your allegations…but this is just your standard mode of response, nothing new.

  • Joe

    I have to anwer “Mick” who is obviously an anti-gun liberal. Mick, the fact is that there is any number of ways to kill someone, if you want to. Terrorist seem to love attaching bombs to themselves. According to his “notes” and messages to “friends”, he really didn’t intend on coming back from his mission. In other words, it was intened to be a one way trip. Mick, you can make bombs from household cleaning supplies, farming chemicals or gasoline, if you want to. Imagine if this guy had decided to use a personal bomb, instead of a gun. Well, the fact is, you would have been scraping up every person in attendance from the pavement. Sir, it’s idiots like you who would gladly turn this nation over to our enemies, than to fire one shot. If it were not for personal gun ownership, this nation could have never existed. Here’s the problem with this country. Because of liberals, such as yourself, we’ve caudled criminals, coodled and kissed them, making up all kinds of reasons as to why they are criminals. Should this great nation ever face invasion, or suffer from a national catastrophy that would result in a breakdown of society, personal gun ownership would be the only thing standing between your family, and roving gangs determined to take what is yours, including your life, and the life of your family. In case of invasion by a hostile nation, gun owners would become the well regulated militia that would be fighting for this nation, because we don’t have enough full time, or part time, military to do the job. The shooting in Tucson is a horrible episode in the history of this nation. If this man was known to be mentally defective, he should have been on the AFT’s list for no sale. What we need in this nation is a list of those at the ATF who have been diagnosed as mentally ill. Clearly, mentally unstable individuals should not have a gun. However, because one person acts out and commits a terrible deed is no reason to assault the gun ownership rights of Americans. This minute any shooting happens, irregarless of who it is, I cringe, because I know there’s going to be some liberal, who has been brainwashed by the UN, who is going to cry “get rid of the guns.”

    • 45caliber

      I think the real reason they want to “get rid of the guns” is because they really want to do things they KNOW the rest of us won’t like and don’t want to risk any consequences for doing it.

  • Gregor

    The shooting was horrific, as they are, of this type. Regardless, the Government, their lapdog– the U.N. are hell-bent on confiscating ammo and guns from ALL Americans. The Governments lackeys..’The Mainstream LIBERAL’ media will use mass shootings of this nature, to expand on their vitrol rhetoric, in pushing for more illogical and Rights grabbing legislation and/or Executive Odors..er, Orders to facilitate their goal, of stripping Americans of their rights. It’s Not just the 2nd Amendment either.
    Your ‘FREE speech’ is in jeopardy. Evidences of Our Christian Judeo Beliefs are being removed from the edifices of our buildings, parks, & government landmarks, not to mention removing ‘God’ from our childrens schools.
    I mention this, as a warning — what unbridled government is capable of, as Our Founding Fathers knew of, over 200years ago..
    “Government is not reason; it is not eloquence; IT IS FORCE!
    Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master.”
    – George Washington
    ” When Injustice becomes Law, Resistance becomes DUTY.”
    - Thomas Jefferson
    “Necessity IS the plea for Every Infringement of human liberty;
    it is the argument of tyrants; it IS the Creed of Slaves.”
    - William Pitt ”
    ” The people are the masters of both Congress and courts, not to
    overthrow the Constitution, but to overthrow the men (and women)
    who pervert it!”
    – Abraham Lincoln
    WHERE THE PEOPLE FEAR THE GOVERNMENT YOU HAVE TYRANNY; WHERE THE GOVERNMENT FEARS THE PEOPLE, YOU’LL HAVE LIBERTY.

    • Teresa

      AMEN & AMEN!!!

    • 45caliber

      You are right and so were those you quoted. And the sad thing is that the libs are perfectly willing to use such an event as this shooting to accomplish their goals – goals no one else feels are useful or needed. They aren’t afraid of the criminals who use the guns; they are afraid of the honest citizens who don’t commit crimes.

  • Mark

    It is so dang convenient for the left to not pin the tail on the donkey. In the real world they couldn’t find their own butts with both hands unless some radical extremist leftist fool gave them instructions and then had a meeting about it. The fool that did the shooting made two mistakes. First, he did not finish off his target. Second, he included innocent bystanders. I am not about hate, doesn’t even enter into the equation. I did take an oath however, long ago, that simply stated I would protect this country against all enemies, foriegn and domestic, and the leftists are now a domestic enemy. They continously attempt to take our freedoms and replace them with government controls that are making this country a mockery to others. So you dummies out there that decide to take matters into your own hands, eliminate your target, and leave the bystanders out of it.

    • Angel

      “The fool that did the shooting made two mistakes. First, he did not finish off his target.” Oh, my….

      “I did take an oath however, long ago, that simply stated I would protect this country against all enemies, foriegn and domestic, and the leftists are now a domestic enemy.”

      YOU NEED HELP, pal.

      The other side are opponents in a political discussion. You disagree with what the other side says or does, you cannot label them “domestic enem(ies)”.

      YOU NEED HELP!

      “So you dummies out there that decide to take matters into your own hands, eliminate your target, and leave the bystanders out of it.”

      GET HELP NOW.

      • Denniso

        The right is ‘outraged’ that some are saying they’ve gone too far w/ violent rhetoric,and that both sides are guilty, and then we see something like what Mark writes above. That is exactly what can lead to people shooting people. Mark,you are disgusting for making that comment,especially that ‘he didn’t finish off his target’. You are precisely what’s wrong w/ the ‘discussion’. You should be booted from the site for inciting violence,which by the way is a crime.

        Once again, where is the site monitor when needed to deal w/ this kind of crap? Bob livingston has said before when prompted about threats here,that ‘he doesn’t really mean it’. This unbalanced Mark sounds pretty serious to me…I guess we can assume it’s acceptable rhetoric and ‘debate’ to Mr. Livingston.

        • Bitter Libertarian

          “The right is ‘outraged’ that some are saying they’ve gone too far w/ violent rhetoric,and that both sides are guilty, and then we see something like what Mark writes above. That is exactly what can lead to people shooting people.”

          ***Sounds like you believe people can be “led” to unnecessary violence like some sort of sleeper cell nut job? NO CHOICE just poof and someone becomes violent??***

          “Mark,you are disgusting for making that comment,especially that ‘he didn’t finish off his target’.”
          ***Agree***

          “You are precisely what’s wrong w/ the ‘discussion’. You should be booted from the site for inciting violence,which by the way is a crime”

          ***Now your taliking like a TRUE, hate speech, thought crime Communist. You do realize that Man is BORN FREE and has the freedom to be right and wrong in what he says? ONLY THOSE afraid need someone else to comfort their fears with LAW***

          • 45caliber

            Of course they believe that people can be led to violence. After all, they are scared to death of a military veteran. They even consider vets to be someone to watch as a “domestic terrorist”. Obviously the normal person was led (by people in the military) to become a murderer! Aren’t everyone who kills for any reason murderers? A normal person would simply point out the faults of the enemey, who would realize their errors and humbly reform. But despite what they might say, their side would NEVER do such a thing! Ever! After all, only normal people would listen to their side.

          • Bitter Libertarian

            Then they better Fear me because I am a Bitter Libertarian 20 yr Military Veteran. :)

          • Denniso

            Sure, I’m shaking in my boots. I really am afraid of a 20 yr veteran who probably worked as a clerk. Not to disparage clerks,but they don’t scare me.

      • Searcher

        Ken P
        So apparently you think that right belongs to the president only? Since I oppose HIS agenda, I and all others that feel the same way about some of his policies were labelled as “enemies” by the president himself. Way to bring the country together and eliminate the hatred Mr. President.

        • Angel

          You need to “search” a little more for context… The President has talked about “political enemies” not “domestic enemies”. I oppose the President, his policies and his programs. I don’t want him dead (unless some folks here), I want him removed from office legally – voted out in 2012 (or with other legal avenues as the situation may warrant). The President has never called his Republican opposition terrorists, anti-American or enemies of this country.

          • Cloud dreamer

            Marty: What makes it OK for our President (term used loosely) to label ANY Americans as “enemies” in ANY context?? Sure does encourage cooperation, doesn’t it? No other President has done this.

      • eddie47d

        I agree Ken P.Way over the top.

    • Karolyn

      Wow! I hope you don’t live in my neighborhood!

    • Mark

      Harsh??Yes, politically correct??shove it, aaaahhhh, but from the mouths of simpletons. Not one person said something positive about not engaging bystanders. What an atrocity. But the target part framed no names, or political parties, just the fact that the guy is obviously not a shooter (nor am I). Just the kind of bandwagon that leftists will draw too like a magnet. Forget all the good, let us concentrate on only the bad, then exploit it for our own good so we can feel warm and fuzzy. Politically correct,???NO If there had been an armed citizen available willing to confront this fool, all the bystanders may still be alive, but no, lets call 911 and wait to see what happens. Yea right.

    • http://deleted Claire

      Good grief.

      • libertytrain

        Claire – I think you are “Good griefing” mark’s comment – wish we could talk about this one particularly in light of what you do for a living.

        • kate8

          What absolutely no one has mentioned is the influence of Hollywood. The effects of a steady diet of graphic violence and moral corruption our kids have been exposed to since birth in TV, movies and music.

          Why isn’t anyone mentioning this group? Because I’d be willing to bet that these are things kids are operating from far more than political rhetoric, which I doubt they ever even hear.

          • libertytrain

            Oh you are absolutely correct. So many of the conservative Hollywood types have been blacklisted, whereas the comedians and Madonna’s, “View” type people spouting their cruel jokes, etc. are celebrated by the balance of the Hollywood types. Very telling. I wonder if that’s why Gore had to leave “this country” and move to California’s Leftist people’s neighborhood. Of course, in Tennessee he is a sad joke to his own people.

  • DaveH

    For those who are truly tired of the divisiveness, and the bad economy, there really is only one solution. Vote Libertarian.
    Big Government is the problem. They are partying hardy on our money. And no matter what their intentions, the truth is that one-size (Government edicts) will never fit all. With Big Government, there will always be a large proportion of the population that is unhappy.
    Our (Libertarian) philosophy is simple. We believe that a person should be able to control their own bodies. That includes putting what they want in or on their own bodies (alcohol, drugs, prostitution, whatever) and their own property. No person has more right to control our own body or our own property than do we ourselves. With that right comes responsibility. That is, we can’t force others to pay for our mistakes, whether that force comes from an individual, a gang of individuals, or a very large gang of individuals (Government). Government is force.
    We believe there are no exemptions from morality for Government officials. They must abide by the same rules that we abide by.
    For Individual Liberty, Personal Responsibility, Free Markets, and Limited Government:
    http://libertarianparty.org/platform

    • Denniso

      Doesn’t that all sound so sweet and good. Only a couple of problems w/ this pie in the sky garden of eden…there have never been ‘free markets’ since the largest always tend to monopolize w/o gov’t regs, and limited gov’t is meaningless w/o context. Limited to doing what exactly? And whose definition of ‘limited’ do we use? A street dweller, a tycoon,a single mother struggling to better herself,a defense contractor? Almost no one agrees on what the gov’t should be or how large or intrusive,which is why we have the gov’t we do. We could,I guess, have a dictator decide for us rather than the voters as we have now. If DaveH wants to cut the largest discretionary part of the budget,the military, then he can vote to do that. If he wants to not fund medicare or space travel,he can also do that. It’s called ‘democracy’,or something close to it anyway.

      • Bitter Libertarian

        You may want to see the party platform before stating anything. I think you are a bit off target here.

      • Searcher

        Denniso,
        You ask “Limited to doing what exactly? And whose definition of ‘limited’ do we use?”
        Here’s a novel idea, how about we use the definition of the founders of this country that they so meticulously laid out for us in an instruction manual known as the Contitution and the Bills of Rights?
        Perhaps you’ve heard of it?

        • eddie47d

          You are correct Denniso for the Constitution is a guideline and doesn’t explicitly say who should get what and how much money it will take to do it. That conversation will go on until our country no longer exists. That could be next year or 500 years from now.

          • Bitter Libertarian

            Eddie47d you are wrong…the Constitution is the Foundation of Law in this Country and it needs no intrepertation. The only thing anyone needs is Websters Dictionary to understand what it says and what it means. It was meant for anyone who could read to understand it regardless of Edfucation level.

            Limited Govt is Pretty straight forward..its peoples self interest that skews what they read/understand. The Constitution is a Set of Rules for the Govt, plain and simple. Welfare, healthcare, corporate welfare, nation Building, Foreign aid, Individual Income tax, Licences, and 95% of laws restricting property ownership by free individuals is not covered in the Constitution BECAUSE THAT WAS THE LIMIT!

          • eddie47d

            Then why are conservatives trying to change it to read the way they want it. I do believe liberals do that also.

          • Denniso

            Limited gov’t is meaningless unless one is a simpleton. Life and government and the modern world are all more complicated than simplistic cliches….

        • Denniso

          If the constitution needs no interpretation,then how is it that the recent Court ruling by the conservatives decided in favor of giving corporations the same rights as a human citizen? There is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING IN THE CONSTITUTION THAT WOULD INDICATE THAT CORPORATIONS ARE ‘CITIZENS. The conservative side of the Court ‘interpreted’ the constitution to come up w/ that ridiculous ruling.

      • DaveH

        Cite me a single case of Monopoly, Denniso. And I’m not talking about those enforced by Government.

        • DaveH

          In fact, the only way any monopoly could exist would be with force. Who do we know that has the power of force? Yep, Big Government.
          The concept of monopolies was just another scare tactic to convince an ignorant citizenry to accept more Government growth. Only back then we didn’t have the Internet to educate people to reality, like we have done with the Global Warming Hoax (yet another attempt to scare people into Bigger Government).

          • Denniso

            If you can’t study the history of economics here and around the world then go ahead and stay uninformed. If you don’t think that monopolies develop when a market is left alone,then you really are clueless. You need some help w/ your education,but since you think you already know everything I doubt your ego will alow it.

          • DaveH

            As usual, Dumniso doesn’t answer the tough question, and instead launches a personal attack. Do you really think your substanceless response bears any weight on this board, Dumniso? You need to stick to the Liberal websites where personal attacks pass as debating skills.
            For the people who want to learn (that excludes Dumniso):
            http://mises.org/journals/rae/pdf/rae9_2_3.pdf

          • Denniso

            You’re blind, and I don’t see any question. Again,you show your complete lack of any knowledge about real world economics w/ that dumb comment. “Monopolies can only exist w/ gov’t force’? Wow,are you clueless! Have you never heard of the term, ‘market forces’? That isn’t just a metaphor. Markets do have forces and the largest companies that can corral those forces wind up ‘owning’ the markets.
            I find it hard to believe that an adult of any education level would make the childish statement you did. Go back to school and learn something before you show off your ignorance on a subject…or,just keep quiet.

      • DaveH

        And our country was not set up as a Democracy. It is a Republic. It was purposely designed not to be a Democracy as our Founders were educated people who were well aware that the Raw Majority in Democracies tend to run over the rest. Imagine the power the Media would have if all they needed to do was sway 51% of the citizens?
        If I made the rules, Government would only be able to pass laws that were supported by 75% or more of the people.

  • Ronald Johnston

    The lazy evil yellow bellys have been accusing us, Americans and Tea Party patriots, of all the things they are guilty of. They are not Americans and don’t deserve the many riches of this country.

    • Karolyn

      By your vitriol, you are more un-American than any of us.

      • eddie47d

        Yes Karolyn the washing machines are in full swing today. The spin cycle and name calling are working overtime. I know there are blind folks on both sides of the political aisle but even Helen Keller could see better than some of these commenter’s.

        • DaveH

          He talks about the name-calling and in the same comment calls people names. Unbelievable.

          • libertytrain

            I don’t think they realize their “do as I say not as I do” example is in full bloom bursting through their comments — I don’t quite get why they don’t see it. They can’t be reading what they write or have zero comprehension.

          • eddie47d

            Wishy washy,wishy washy! Even more spin from Dave and company.

      • JeffH

        Oooooohhhhh! “The lazy evil yellow bellys”…vicious vitriol? WOW! HAH! Give me a break!

        • bob wire

          yea, That was really thought out. LOL!

          I’m working on income taxes this week, since I’m seen a so “not” American, maybe I could skip the whole process? As far as enjoying the bounty , ~ hmm? well I was born here, I served and managed to return with most of my original issued body parts and have worked my butt off and helped financed the show,paying every tax my country has asked of me to pay.

          I think I’ll stay and maybe run your ass off Skippy. I don’t think you could hold the light high enough for a good American to run by.

  • American Citizen

    @ Dennis O., the largest part of the budget is for the military because that is the basic reason for the government, defense of this country. It was never meant to be a sugar daddy.

    • 45caliber

      I think Welfare has overtaken the military spending as the biggest expense now. I know they are really close, anyway. And I am certain that by the time you add all the other give-away things to Welfare, such as free lunches, free medical, etc. they are WAY past the military. Unfortunately. We need to build up our military. Perhaps we should put all the healthy welfare recips in the military since they need more people …

      Naw, that wouldn’t work. The military needs GOOD people.

      • Angel

        “I think Welfare has overtaken the military spending as the biggest expense now.” You are SO WRONG – stop making up this garbage!
        2009 (last Bush budget):
        Defense spending: 23%
        Social security: 20%
        Medicare/Medicaid: 19%

        Welfare: aka Unemployment benefits, food stamps and like fall under Other Discretionary spending: 12%.

        • 45caliber

          I’ve seen somewhere that if you pile everything considered “defense” in military and everything considered “aid” into welfare, they both take up approximately 1/3 of the federal budget. I don’t remember where. But they are probably right, particularly now when the Dems have been cutting our military so much.

          • DaveH
          • 45caliber

            DaveH:
            This just shows the government version of how things are split up.

            It’s like foreign aid. If you look at the government version, it isn’t so bad. But if you include the money handled by the World Bank (which gives interest free loans with no time to pay back) to only governments that ONLY the US puts into it, it starts adding up. When you add in such things as money the government gives to “charities” that is used to slip money to governments they don’t want to admit to, it goes up again. Etc.

            The welfare situation is the same. They REALLY don’t want you to know how much money is going to whom.

          • DaveH

            45,
            The spending is just the tip of the iceberg. There is also a huge cost to the economy for the people that are diverted from the productive private sector into the government sector where they not only produce less but they also interfere with the production of the producers in the private sector.

        • 45caliber

          Oh, and war is not defense. It is a totally seperate thing.

          • bob wire

            well if it isn’t, it needs be 45.

  • David Warheit

    1. inflammatory, often violent, rhetoric from the far Left
    2. liberal hate
    3. liberal violence
    4. the incessant drumbeat of rage from Democrat Party outlets like MSNBC
    5. the gunpowder of Leftist anger
    6. the endless “Worst person in the world” ranting from MSNBC’s Zen master of hate Keith Olbermann
    7. the appallingly angry Rachel Maddow
    8. one of their brainless acolytes (i.e. Loughner is a member of the far Left)
    End of paragraph one.
    9. monsters like Markos Moulitsas
    10. raging idiots like Olbermann
    11. violent union thugs from the Service Employees International Union (SEIU)
    12. the anti-semitic roaring of characters like former President Jimmy Carter
    13. Democrat Party shill Paul Krugman
    14. homicidal terrorist William Ayers
    15. Olbermann’s lunatic yammering

    Above are quotes from Mr. Crystal’s article. It is language like this that all reasonable people have condemned. It matters not whether Loughner ever read such remarks emanating from the Right or not. Such language is absolutely pervasive in Rightist writings and has created an atmosphere of hate which pervades our society.

    It is both sad and beyond forgiving that the events in Tucson have taught Mr. Crystal and so many of his political allies absolutely nothing. The best that the rest of us can do is to shun such speech and resolve never to engage in such ourselves.

    • Bitter Libertarian

      Yes & No….I read Mein kampf…didnt make me crazy…(did give me a headache though) Read a few other leftist books to know their tactics..did not make me want to do anything.

      So I disagree that any language of any sort can drive someone to do something they dont want to do.

      IF IT DID>>>>> Reforming anyone’s (Or the worlds) problems would be solved by READING. :)

      • 45caliber

        Some language can cause someone to do what they don’t want to do.

        For instance, kids can dare someone into doing something stupid like jump off a bridge into a river by calling him a coward.

        The SS troops who were once Youth Corps members in school were convinced they were the only pure race. Kids today in college (and some high schools) are taught that they should be liberal/progressive/socialists until most learn in life there are better things. (Some never learn.)

        So, yes, words can affect people. I suspect, however, that this character wasn’t really one of them.

        • Bitter Libertarian

          Theres a difference between reading something and it CAUSING you do do something you dont want to do and Childrn or Students who, for lack of a better way to say it, are a blank sheet of paper…looking for things to learn because their parents or lack of parents taught them something or nothing.

          If I was raised with “Thou shalt not Kill” and I believe that itys not right to kill someone its going to take allot to convince me to put a gun to someone and kill them. Now if I wasnt taugh that or anything..then perhaps I will go which ever way the page turns me.

          • 45caliber

            Okay, I’ll go along with that. But people can be changed by words and acts. Such as brain washing.

            Incidently, I wasn’t taught that it is wrong to “kill”. I was taught that it was wrong to “murder”. In fact the original word used in “Thou shall not kill” was actually “murder”. And I’ve never “murdered” anyone and never intend to. But I will kill if someone attacks my or mine.

            The problem is that many people confuse the two words.

    • DaveH

      Something tells me, David, that you need to look in the mirror.
      From David “Such language is absolutely pervasive in Rightist writings and has created an atmosphere of hate which pervades our society”. Talk about furthering hate.

  • Wim Vonk

    I am laughing at all this talk about the left or the right causing the trouble. The bottom line is that the US is a violent society, always has been. Any society that allows its people to walk around with guns available to anyone is bound to get regular shootings like the one in Tuscon. And to think that this is the country that wanted to bring democracy to Iraq. Pathetic

    • JC

      I doubt you can qualify that with anything more than Hollywood induced impressions. The stats tell a different story. By the way, one third of Canadians are armed and well. And the reason you don’t hear more about crime in your own country is that it is suppressed by the media. And are you implying that your ridiculously oppressive gun laws keep your criminals from getting guns?
      Your statement is ridiculous and well programmed.

      • DaveH
        • DaveH

          Why doesn’t our Media usually report such events in Canada? Because Canada has strict gun control. They only report events that support their anti-gun policies.

          • AnotherDave

            Actually, Canada has very strict laws about hand guns… rifles are hardly regulated.

          • DaveH
          • JC

            Another Dave, you are correct to a point. But Canadian law does not allow you to own guns of any kind for personal defense. And they ALL must be registered. (the implications of that alone are obvious)
            So if you come home and find someone raping your 13 y/o daughter you might as well just cook him a steak. After all he might be hungry when he’s finished. Moral Law? Hardly.

            I know more than a few Canadian gun owners and when it comes right down to it they will defend themselves and their families…laws or no laws. And they “should” have every right to do so…it’s the only moral approach there is.

    • DaveH

      Yeah, for sure, only the Leaders ought to be able to be armed. After all, their lives are much more important than the rest of ours.

  • Karolyn

    Limbaugh quotes showing how intelligent he really is:
    “Feminism was established to allow unattractive women easier access to the mainstream.”

    “The difference between Los Angeles and yogurt is that yogurt comes with less fruit.”

    “Take that bone out of your nose and call me back.” (to a female, African-American caller)

    “You know who deserves a posthumous Medal of Honor? James Earl Ray [the confessed assassin of Martin Luther King]. We miss you, James. Godspeed.”

    “I mean, let’s face it, we didn’t have slavery in this country for over 100 years because it was a bad thing. Quite the opposite: slavery built the South. I’m not saying we should bring it back; I’m just saying it had its merits. For one thing, the streets were safer after dark.”

    “She comes to me when she wants to be fed. And after I feed her — guess what — she’s off to wherever she wants to be in the house, until the next time she gets hungry. She’s smart enough to know she
    can’t feed herself. She’s actually a very smart cat. She gets loved. She gets adoration. She gets petted. She gets fed. And she doesn’t have to do anything for it, which is why I say this cat’s taught me more about women, than anything my whole life.” –on his cat

    “He is exaggerating the effects of the disease. He’s moving all around and shaking and it’s purely an act. … This is really shameless of Michael J. Fox. Either he didn’t take his medication or he’s acting.” –on an ad by Michael J. Fox endorsing Claire McCaskill for Senate for supporting embryonic stem cell research”

    “He is exaggerating the effects of the disease. He’s moving all around and shaking and it’s purely an act. … This is really shameless of Michael J. Fox. Either he didn’t take his medication or he’s acting.” –on an ad by Michael J. Fox endorsing Claire McCaskill for Senate for supporting embryonic stem cell research”

    “It has not been proven that nicotine is addictive, the same with cigarettes causing emphysema.”

    • Searcher

      Did you have a point, other than that you don’t like Rush Limbaugh? I’m not sure what you’re trying to illustrate. Some of those quotes were simply humor, and others where just outlandish rhetoric.

      • Angel

        Yeah – humor! Ethnic jokes and making fun of sick people. Laughing my ass off at the usual playground garbage from Lady Rush. (No homo jokes, by the way – TOO CLOSE to home.)

      • independant thinker

        She is just like flashpants, bob wire, denniso, and others who like to sling stinky stuff. When I see their name at the top of a post I always go get my sh!t-kicker boots cause I know I will be wadeing thru it if I read their post.

      • Karolyn

        the point is obvisou to anyone who takes the time to think. Limbaugh is one of those who perpetuates societal issues that should have been gone long ago. A celebrity demeaning anyone makes it alright in the eyes of his sheeple. There is no respect there. If there was more respect for others in this world, it would be a better place. He should use his position for the betterment of mankind, not to make it worse. Take a look at the disrespect shown here.

        I addressed Limbaugh because it was requested by soneone to cite how he spreads hate.

        • Karolyn

          obvious

        • 45caliber

          Karolyn:

          Why is it that I, as a conservative, have never listened to Linbaugh, but you and many other liberals can quote what he says? It sounds to me that most of his followers are liberal rather than conservative. And from what quotes I have heard that he is supposed to have said, none of them are quoted from hate but simply pointing out the lack of logic of those he is talking about. How is that hate?

          • bob wire

            45 ? I’m not sure of the point you attempt to make.

            Myself, I listen and read everything! I do discriminate but I am slow to blackball someone that is seen a popular just because I don’t like their looks or message. I remember what they say! ~ I don’t see this as a bad thing.

            I’m here! There is better things to do, prettier things to see. More healthy things to absorb. but I’m here because I wish to understand, to know and learn the world I share with fellow Americans.

            But as you know, it’s not an indictment or that I agree.

            I work with the public, go into their homes, pet their dog, look at the pictures on the wall, I go all over their home, I have a professional side I must keep razor sharp. I can control situations or let situations control me.

            To understand people is and never been a process of accepting them and their ideas as your own, but respecting them and all they might encompass.

        • eddie47d

          Caliber doesn’t understand hate or what Limbaugh is really saying. People take Limbaugh seriously whether on the left or right and he is deliberately provoking people. He is an insensitive man and let’s face it some folks love that kind of trash. He belongs in a comedy club where we can all laugh him off and then go home.Too bad that is not the case.

          • 45caliber

            Hate is the opposite of love. It is a burning passion to do anything you can to destroy the person or thing you hate – even to the point of committing crimes. You don’t care about any consequences – you simply act.

            Hate talk is a part of that passion. And saying someone is an idiot (particularly after he just proves it) is not hate talk. It is a statement of fact or a mild name. Hate talk is telling exactly what you intend to do to someone you passionately hate. It is not a mild dislike or a liking to embarress someone due to their own stupidity. Dragging someone behind your car could be considered hate; calling someone a dirty name (or a not-so-dirty name as done here) isn’t hate at all. Particularly if it is a statement of fact. For instance, if I was to say you are an idiot because you don’t know what you are talking about, that is not hate; it is a statement of fact.

            And I see a lot more of hate speach (passion and all) from liberals than I have from conservatives.

        • Karolyn

          45 – I have heard Limbaugh probably twice in my life and also heard things secondhand. These quotes were gathered online in response to what is being said here. I don’t listen to or watch anyone who espouses derogatory language regarding the “other side:, and I try not to do it myself unless someone shows a complete lack of logic.

          • 45caliber

            I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt. But I still believe more of his listeners are liberal than conservative. I’ve heard far more liberals quoting him.

          • Denniso

            I and other liberals/progressives/Democrats and sane people sometimes listen to the drug pusher Limbaugh to see what he is preaching to his obedient flock of automatons. It’s so easy to keep up with the rantings of the rightwing extremists just by listening to 5 or 10 mins of their glorious leader, because they all repeat verbatim what the loud mouth spouts everyday.
            We could have been better served if the western world had listened to what Hitler spewed and taken it seriously earlier than we did. Limbaugh uses the same techniques that all the great demagogues have. Turning your political opponents into enemies of the country,scapegoating your ‘enemies’,demonizing the other side, and playing the victim of your opponents. He’s wallowing in extreme wealth made by his sick and malicious accusations and demonizing of fellow countrymen.

    • 45caliber

      Karolyn:

      Of your quotes here, the only one I might consider hate would be his comment on James Earl Jones. And there are some questions there based on what I’ve heard about King from one of his most loyal followers, Washington.

      The rest all appear to be honest appraisals of what he was speaking about. You, as a woman, might not like being likened to his cat but from observation, many women (including my wife) are like that. And my wife has no problem with being likened to a cat. She loves them.

      • Karolyn

        45 – You and probably the majority of our society are not aware of how these kinds of things affect how women are treated in general. In my line of work right now, I’m learning a lot about this. The reference to “fruits” is obviously directed toward gays. You have to admit that many are derogatory quotes. He called Michael J. Fox a faker. How stupid is that? I admit, much of what he says is just plain ignorant; however, how many people listen to him and stay ignorant because of it. Ignorance breeds hate.

        • 45caliber

          No, ignorance breeds apathy. If you don’t know about something or someone, you don’t care one way or the other what someone else says about it or him.

          It’s when you do know something about someone that you don’t like that you are willing to listen to other things derogatory about that person. Just as you will listen to good things about someone you like and will argue about things you don’t like said about that person.

        • 45caliber

          If someone is listening to Limbaugh (or anyone else) and agreeing with what they are saying, it is because they know someone they dislike who fits that description.

    • Angel Wannabe

      Ah C’mon Karolyn, ya wanna talk shyte on rhetoric, Where the hell we’re ya, when they hung a replica of Bush by the neck from a poll and paraded it through a protest?___Hows ’bout the Movie of the Assassination of George Bush?__Gimme a break_your Libbie friends has done plenty of character assasinations of they’re own.

      • Karolyn

        Angel, They are not my “friends.” I really do not wish to go tit-for-tat here. It’s too childish.

      • Angel Wannabe

        Karolyn, I guess its only childish if someone doesn’t agree with you and calls ya out on a response?!_Amazing!

  • http://marcum@wildblue.net coal miner

    “If ballots don’t work bullets will.”
    Joyce Kauffman

  • Earl, QUEENS, NY

    It’s a sad tragedy. Although Giffords is not really a conservative as described on CBS news the other night, we can see that she is not as leftwing and radical as Nasty Pelosi, Dingy Dirty Harry Reid or other democraps. She’s on the right side of some issues. It’s also sad to see the reaction of the leftists/democraps to this tragedy. On page 4 of the Sunday (1/9/2011) NY Daily News, a moron from its staff blames Sarah Palin for the tragedy, showing a map with telescope target symbols on a map. That’s BS!! From what we read, it appears that Jared Loughner is NOT a mainstream conservative or moderate, but a leftwing nut job who perhaps thinks Giffords is not liberal enough!! Of course, the left always blames conservatives and accuses them of hate mongering. But which side is to blame for hate mongering?? Blaming Tea Parties, Fox News, conservative talk radio hosts, etc.!! I’m so tired of all this BS from the left!! If liberals/democraps really want to blame anyone for ‘hate’, why don’t they just look in their mirrors??!! Why is it okay for leftwingers and democraps to wish death on Rush Limbaugh, GW Bush, Sarah Palin and other republicans/conservatives?? As for the anti-government attitude or sentiment, why not put the blame where it belongs – on today’s leftwing statist Democrap Party?? It is that party that for the past few years has been governing much against the will of the people, ignoring the Constitution and destroying America and its financial system. Why won’t those on the left also start reading the Constitution likewise, and see where they’re crossing us????

    Also, according to CNSnews, Giffords had a ‘C’ rating from the NRA. That’s better than the GOP congressman I had when I lived in Florida, who had an ‘F’ rating, despite the fact that he once even wrote me a personal letter saying that he supports the 2nd Amendment!! And it’s also better than NYC Mayor Mike Bloomturd, who’s been a complete liberal RINO!! Of course, as usual, the “Never let a good crisis go to waste” crowd loves to exploit every tragedy of this kind. They always blame the inanimate object instead of the miscreant who’s responsible for the crime. They never admit that no gun control law will prevent such tragedies, nor the fact that had there been more armed citizens there, one of them could’ve stopped the nut job and prevented some of the needless deaths!! Furthermore, as for “Never let a good crisis go to waste”, how can we be sure that these leftwing anti-gun anti-2nd Amendment fascists are not involved in the tragedies?? Seriously, I’ve heard of at least one similar tragedy in which the nutjob, prior to committing suicide, said something like: ‘this is what legal guns are all about!!’ Hmmmm!! That sounds like something we hear from the leftwing anti-gun anti-2nd Amendment fascists after such a tragedy. Think about it. With these leftwing statists, anything’s possible!!

  • Norm

    Loughner is almost certainly insane and, like the countless other mentally disturbed people who send similar ravings to media outlets around the world, his ideas would have been ignored as incoherent and irrelevant if he hadn’t fired a gun into a crowd of people Saturday. The fact that he did fire that gun, however, doesn’t make his delusions suddenly meaningful. It doesn’t make his list of favorite books significant. Crazy people who make headlines and change history are still crazy.
    By studying Loughner’s book list for clues to the political leanings that somehow “drove” him to commit murder, commentators are behaving a lot like crazy people themselves. Paranoids are prone to scouring newspaper articles and the monologues of late-night comedians for imaginary coded messages that confirm their “secret knowledge” about the world. But those coded messages aren’t there — it’s just random stuff with no special significance. The truth about mental illness is that it strikes without regard to political affiliation or ideological orientation, and it turns beautiful minds into nonsense factories. We can debate a social order that allows its victims access to firearms and talk about finding better ways to intervene before the minority of mentally disturbed individuals with violent impulses are able to act on those impulses. But trying to find the cause for this disease in politics, ideas or books is just plain nuts.

    • Searcher

      Well said, Norm. You seem to make a lot of sense. What are you doing here? lol

    • 45caliber

      I agree with what you said here – except for one thing that really isn’t your fault. I don’t call it “mental illness”. That infers that it can be treated and will be cured. AT BEST, you can drug someone like this to the point that he sits and stares at the wall but he can never be “cured”. Oh, I’m certain that some psychologist will insist he can cure him. Then, once the guy says he’s cured, he can be released to do it again as a “relapse”. But the fact it, he is just plain crazy. And since he is crazy, despite the fact that he is nominally human, he should simply be put to sleep just as you’d do a rabid dog. You might feel sorry for it but you know that keeping it around would just get someone else hurt.

      • American Citizen

        You’re right, there’s a difference between being crazy, which he is, and insanity. One just has crazy ideas, which he has, and insanity which doesn’t know the difference between right and wrong and act impulsively. Loughner knew what he was doing, in fact, planned it for quite a while. He is not insane, so that plea won’t work with most people.

  • calan

    Limbaugh,Beck,Hannity,Levien,Savage and many other right wing talk show host are talking hate 24/7
    I know the leftist have talk shows that do it also….but im telling you it s no where near level of whats playing on the A.M. stations i hear.
    Both sides need to be civil about how they talk about about each other
    and i wish some neutral media was around to check the the facts against any lies and mis truths that are thrown out at the people everyday.
    The guy that did the shooting is a lost soul,but i bet your mamas egg money that political rhetoric is part of what pushed him to what he did.
    Forget about what anybody said or did in the past that was ill responsible.
    We need to tell the truth and be careful how we talk to each other.
    The differences will always be there,but we should be acting as adults and not calling names like angry children.
    What should have been done when you posted what was said by some of the politicians on the left is post was said and done by the politicians on the right they all are wrong when they may statements like that.
    My god i hope something like this dose n t happen again.
    Maybe we should think of Christina Taylor Green before we start with the hate talk.

    • 45caliber

      The problem here is: What do you call hate talk??

      I can say I don’t like Oblama or what he is doing. To many, that is hate talk. But they can say that Bush was an idiot who belongs in jail for murder and that isn’t hate talk. To me, what they are saying is a lot closer to hate talk than what I said.

      “Hate Talk” should be removed from our language. It cannot be defined since everyone takes the attitude that “whatever you say is hate talk if you disagree with me but whatever I say is not”. Even when they both say exactly the same thing.

    • Steve

      Calan, seems you have joined the list of other idiots on here that spout off how hateful everyone is on the right and can’t back it up. I do watch Beck and Hannity and have never heard either one of them say any hateful things. Please provide proof or stop lying to prove a point you couldn’t otherwise make. You are part of the problem that we are discussing.

  • Claire2

    JIM says:
    January 11, 2011 at 7:12 am
    HOW ABOUT ALL THOSE FAR RIGHT PEOPLE SPEWING THE HATE AND VIOLANCE. YOU KNOW RUSH , GLEN BECK,HANNITY, AND MOST OF THE GOP. IT IS AMAZING HOW THE REPUBLICANS CAN START SOMETHING AND THEN TRY TO BLAME THE DEMOCRATS. THEY ARE SUCH HIPOCRITS

    Jim,
    It seems to me that your political side is the one with the big HIPOCRIT problem.

    Let’s start with the leader of your party!

    ** Obama: “They Bring a Knife…We Bring a Gun”
    ** Obama to His Followers: “Get in Their Faces!”
    ** Obama on ACORN Mobs: “I don’t want to quell anger. I think people are right to be angry! I’m angry!”
    ** Obama to His Mercenary Army: “Hit Back Twice As Hard”
    ** Obama on the private sector: “We talk to these folks… so I know whose ass to kick.“
    ** Obama to voters: Republican victory would mean “hand to hand combat”
    ** Obama to lib supporters: “It’s time to Fight for it.”
    * Obama to Latino supporters: “Punish your enemies.”
    ** Obama to democrats: “I’m itching for a fight.”

    He has caused a huge divide in this nation, and all for the gain of power! Never the less….a mad man, and no one else is to blame. It would have been helpful if the Sheriff’s department was a little more concerned with keeping their comnunity safe, and not so much with their liberal spew!!!!

    • http://deleted Claire

      CLAIRE?????—–WHAT THE HELL?–WHY ARE YOU USING MY NAME TO POST THIS CRAP? I DO NOT APPRECIATE HAVING SOMEONE USE MY NAME. IF YOU ARE LEGITIMATE, USE ANOTHER MONIKER, NOT MY NAME!!!

      • libertytrain

        – she may not have seen your posts and she may be named Claire. It’s ok. sometimes these things happen.

        • http://deleted Claire

          libertytrain–You may be correct. Perhaps she does have the same name. For some reason, I have a feeling….do you get what I mean and to whom I refer to? Do you think?

          • JC

            Calls herself Claire “2″. Don’t worry about it. :)

          • libertytrain

            Yes, I do believe Personal Liberty must have read your post and is looking after you. I’m sure it will still occur now and then but don’t take it personally – I’m positive that is just her name.

          • libertytrain

            And no, while sometimes people are mean-spirited as you know, I don’t believe that is the case this time.

      • libertytrain

        ah, looks like someone read you and is looking after you too.

        • http://deleted Claire

          libertytrain–are you posting to me?

        • http://deleted Claire

          libertytrain–there is a “2″ after her name now.

        • http://deleted Claire

          libertytrain–I see, I just didn’t look at the “2″ behind her name. My appreciation to the person checking this site.

  • Dale on the left coast

    “Limbaugh,Beck,Hannity,Levien,Savage and many other right wing talk show host are talking hate 24/7″

    Calan . . . ever watch Olberman, Mathews, Madcow, or read Kos, Huffinton??? Bet I can post 100 outrageous statements from these clowns for every statement you can find from your list.
    Did the right-wingers start blogging and writing loony columns minutes after the shooting??? No . . . but krazy Krugman, Koss and Olberman did!!!

  • chuckb

    the real problem is the left wing antagonist. they can’t compete with the limbaugh’s or most of the conservative right wing. when something like this happens, they use the incident to belittle their competetion try to blame the opponents they fear, and blame the right for such tragedy as the one in tucson. they send out there troops that are safe in their districts to spew out all kinds of stupid remarks such as clyburn did about the constituion or the political hack sheriff from arizona. you don’t hear any democrat from a marginal district make the slightest inflammatory remark.
    the democrats use such tragedy’s as this to make political hay, they are trying at this very moment to use this happening as a political plus for barry. they will get his teleprompter geared for a speech such as clinton made in oklahoma all the demo sheep will bow to their master and applaud his handling and pass out the bucket for donations. barry will cast a few million to the tucson area and cry out for gun control.
    why don’t we show as much concern for the young men that are killed in afghanistan and iraq, they have parents too!

    • 45caliber

      Yes, but the men in Afghanistan are using government guns and are killed by people the government has labeled as enemies. Therefore they can’t go on a rant about those who are killed without also ranting about those in government (who are basically their people) being the reason they are there. And that is a no-no.

  • http://marcum@wildblue.net coal miner

    Attention;

    Jared Loughner had a hatred and mistrust of Government:

    TUCSON, Ariz. At an event roughly three years ago, Rep. Gabrielle Giffords took a question from Jared Loughner, the man accused of trying to assassinate her and killing six other people. According to two of his high school friends the question was essentially this: “What is governmen. According to two of his high school friends the question was essentially this: “What is government if words have no meaning?”

    Loughner was angry about her response – she read the question and didn’t have much to say.

    “He was like … ‘What do you think of these people who are working for the government and they can’t describe what they do?’” one friend told The Associated Press on Sunday. “He did not like government officials, how they spoke. Like they were just trying to cover up some conspiracy.”

    Both friends spoke on condition of anonymity, saying they wanted to avoid the publicity surrounding the case. To them, the question was classic Jared: confrontational, nonsensical and obsessed with how words create reality.

    The friends’ comments paint a picture bolstered by other former classmates and Loughner’s own Internet postings: that of a social outcast with nihilistic, almost indecipherable beliefs steeped in mistrust and paranoia.

    “If you call me a terrorist then the argument to call me a terrorist is Ad hominem,” the 22-year-old wrote Dec. 15 in a wide-ranging screed that was posted in video form and ended with nearly the same question his friends said he posed to Giffords: “What’s government if words don’t have meaning?”

    On Sunday, Loughner was charged in the shootings a day earlier at a political event outside a Tucson supermarket. Aside from the six killed, 14 people were injured. Doctors were optimistic about Giffords’ chances for survival.

    Loughner had at least one other contact with Giffords. Investigators said they carried out a search warrant at Loughner’s home and seized a letter addressed to him from Giffords’ congressional stationery in which she thanked him for attending a “Congress on your Corner” event at a mall in Tucson in 2007. Saturday’s shooting occurred at a similar event.

    Other evidence seized from his home included an envelope from a safe with messages such as “I planned ahead,” “My assassination” and the name “Giffords” next to what appears to be Loughner’s signature. Police say he purchased the Glock pistol used in the attack in November.

    Loughner lives with his parents about a five-minute drive from the shootings, in a middle-class neighborhood lined with desert landscaping and palm trees. Sheriff’s deputies blocked off much of the street Sunday.

    Neighbors said Loughner kept to himself and was often seen walking his dog, almost always wearing a hooded sweat shirt and listening to his iPod.

    His high school friends said they fell out of touch with Loughner and last spoke to him around March, when one of them was going to set up some bottles in the desert for target practice and Loughner suggested he might come along. It was unusual – Loughner hadn’t expressed an interest in guns before – and his increasingly confrontational behavior was pushing them apart. He would send bizarre text messages, but also break off contact for weeks on end.

    “We just started getting sketched out about him,” the friend said. It was the first time he’d felt that way.

    Around the same time, Loughner’s behavior also began to worry officials at Pima Community College, where Loughner began attending classes in 2005, the school said in a release.

    Between February and September, Loughner “had five contacts with PCC police for classroom and library disruptions,” the statement said. He was suspended in September 2010 after college police discovered a YouTube video in which Loughner claimed the college was illegal according to the U.S. Constitution. He withdrew voluntarily the following month, and was told he could return only if, among other things, a mental health professional agreed he did not present a danger, the school said.

    It was at the college that Loughner had posed his question to Giffords about government and words, one friend said. A college spokesman said Giffords often has used school property for open events; a Giffords spokesman said he was not sure at which event the exchange would have taken place.

    Loughner’s alienation from his friends was gradual.

    The Loughner they met when he was a freshman at Mountain View High School may have been socially awkward, but he was generally happy and fun to be around. The crew smoked marijuana every day, and when they weren’t going to concerts or watching movies they talked about the meaning of life and dabbled in conspiracy theories.

    For a time, Loughner drank heavily, to the point of poisoning himself, the friends said. Once, during school lunch break as a junior, he downed so much tequila that he came back to class, within five minutes passed out cold, had to be rushed to the hospital and “almost died,” one friend said.

    Mistrust of government was Loughner’s defining conviction, the friends said. He believed the U.S. government was behind 9/11, and worried that governments were maneuvering to create a unified monetary system (“a New World Order currency” one friend said) so that social elites and bureaucrats could control the rest of the world.

    On his YouTube page, he listed among his favorite books “Animal Farm” and “Brave New World” – two novels about how authorities control the masses. Other books in the wide-ranging list included “Mein Kampf,” “The Communist Manifesto,” “Peter Pan” and Aesop’s Fables.

    Over time, Loughner became increasingly introspective – what one of the friends described as a “nihilistic rut.”

    An ardent atheist, he began to characterize people as sheep whose free will was being sapped by the government and the monotony of modern life.

    “He didn’t want people to wake up and do the same thing every day. He wanted more chaos, he wanted less regularity,” one friend said.

    The friends said Loughner told anyone who would listen that the world we see does not exist, that words have no meaning – and that the only way to derive meaning was during sleep. Loughner began obsessing about a practice called lucid dreaming, in which people try to actively control their sleeping world.

    Several people who knew Loughner at community college said he did not engage in political discussions – in fact, he didn’t talk much at all, and when he did classmates cringed.

    “He made a lot of the people really uncomfortable, especially the girls in the class,” said Steven Cates, who attended an advanced poetry writing class with Loughner at Pima Community College last spring. Though he struck up a passing friendship with Loughner, he said a group of other students went to the teacher to complain about Loughner at one point.

    Another poetry student, Don Coorough, said Loughner read a poem about bland tasks such as showering, going to the gym and riding the bus in wild “poetry slam” style – “grabbing his crotch and jumping around the room.”

    When other students, always seated, read their poems, Coorough said Loughner “would laugh at things that you wouldn’t laugh at.” After one woman read a poem about abortion, “he was turning all shades of red and laughing,” and said, “Wow, she’s just like a terrorist, she killed a baby,” Coorough said.

    “He appeared to be to me an emotional cripple or an emotional child,” Coorough said. “He lacked compassion, he lacked understanding and he lacked an ability to connect.”

    Cates said Loughner “didn’t have the social intelligence, but he definitely had the academic intelligence.”

    “He was very into the knowledge aspect of school. He was really into his philosophy classes and he was really into logic and English. And he would get frustrated by the dumbed-down words people used in class,” Cates said.

    Loughner expressed his interest in grammar and logic on the Internet as he made bizarre claims – such as that the Mars rover and the space shuttle missions were faked.

    He frequently used “if-then” constructions in making nonsensical arguments. For instance: “If the living space is able to maintain the crews life at a temperature of -454F then the human body is alive in the NASA Space Shuttle. The human body isn’t alive in the NASA Space Shuttle. Thus, the living space isn’t able to maintain the crews life at a temperature of -454F.”

    Loughner also said in one video that government is “implying mind control and brainwash on the people by controlling grammar.” He described America’s laws as “treasonous” and said that “every human who’s mentally capable is always able to be treasurer of their new currency.”

    Loughner described himself as a U.S. military recruit in the video, but the Army released a statement saying he tried to enlist but was rejected. The statement said under federal privacy law, no reason could be specified.

    In October 2007, Loughner was cited in Pima County for possession of drug paraphernalia, which was dismissed after he completed a diversion program, according to online records.

    A year later he was charged with an unknown “local charge” in Marana near Tucson. That charge was also dismissed following the completion of a diversion program in March 2009, the Arizona Daily Star reported.

    “He has kind of a troubled past, I can tell you that,” Sheriff Clarence Dupnik said.

    Read more: http://www.kansascity.com/2011/01/09/2571537/sheriff-says-gunman-acted-alone.html#ixzz1AkcRjzUe

    • http://marcum@wildblue.net coal miner

      Also,

      BY Jerry Kennard

      Around 40 percent of people with schizophrenia will have the paranoid type. This is one of five sub-types of schizophrenia. Paranoid schizophrenia tends to appear later in life, usually around the age of 25 to 30. The main features are a preoccupation with one or more delusions or frequent auditory hallucinations, but nothing prominent in terms of disorganized speech, flat or inappropriate emotions.
      The delusional content (the beliefs) of the person with paranoid schizophrenia is marked by grandiosity, or persecution, or both. Onset can be fairly rapid but may be difficult for others to recognize it for what it is. Anger, irritation or argumentative behavior may be the most prominent features, as is extreme jealousy.
      Delusions and hallucinations represent the ‘positive’ symptoms of psychosis, so-called because they are present. By contrast, ‘negative’ symptoms refer to the absence of behavior, for example, not showing emotions. Delusions, hallucinations and paranoid thinking are not however confined to people with schizophrenia. They are probably better thought of at extreme end of a continuum of experiences found in the general population.

  • Raggs

    I think that the left is pissed that they can’t tag this on the tea-party.

    • 45caliber

      I think you are right.

      • bob wire

        I think that you are right, ~ it’s tit for tat ` on the political front.

        The sad part is, there is enough evidence out there to make it possible.

        That the “FAR, far right might take offense with it is most understandable.

        That the left is attempting to make political hay is equally understandable, they have the opportunity and the material and no stranger to years of inflammatory, “over the top” embellish attacks from the far right.

        We can debate it all day long and end up it the same place we started. So I see little to gain in such a debate, contrary to Ben Crystal effort at spin.

        Who was Timothy McVeigh and Terry Nichols? I’m not sure it matters?

        but HOW they might have hatched their ideas does.

        I think we all need to be mindful of our words, words create concepts, pictures in the human mind and evidently in animals minds at well. For if they didn’t, they wouldn’t respond to verbal commands. So even animals think in concepts and images.

        These pictures we place in other peoples minds with words may well not be our problem, our responsibility. But if you are to pay the cost, it’s “your dead a$$” to be the final product, I think you might find yourself a different point of view.

        There been times, I’d just love to tell the judge what I thought about his justice he is subjecting me too. But the picture I might place in his mind will not serve me.

        Hard talk, hurts, injures, wounds and kills, where it’s a judge, wife, child or stranger.

        Hard talk to children can create “acid shame” they might carry for the rest of their life. Their very growth limited by secret acid shame they may carry and no longer can even recall. They are what you helped make them be.

        Some of us like to talk “hard” ~ usually this hard talk is to hide something, a self image issue, insecurity, a feeling of inferiority, the reason many, ~ some are raised that way and want to share the pain, want others to hurt as they hurt.

        Bla ~Bla ~bla

        Let’s don’t ~ Let’s stop ~ select our words that best reflect our social self and our feeling. Control our words and thoughts for a better world, a best time.

        We do create our world and this starts with thoughts and their reflection ~ “WORDS”

    • eddie47d

      You don’t get it do you Raggs? This kid (young Adult) talked about conspiracy theories and loved anti-government rhetoric. He sounds like half the people on this site. Then he goes out and proves the power of a gun and how it can work against those evil forces he talks about. There is alot more than “liberalism” controlling his mind.

      • Raggs

        yeah the communist manifesto he had in his house I figure had alot to do with it… Just wondering which progressive turned him on to that?

        Can I call u stupid?

        • eddie47d

          What is your problem Raggs? He also had Ayn Rand books in his “library” so did that make him a conservative? …Does that make you stupid or uninformed.

          • bob wire

            Raggs is all over the place much like a few other people.

            Ayn Rand was a powerful read in my younger years, how I was affected ?, saddened, depressed and left confused. “We the living” being the most powerful of all for me.

            That people had the ability to carry such views and feel validated was a real wake up.

      • http://marcum@wildblue.net coal miner

        eddie47d,

        Over half of these people on this blog are whackos.They are Lougher’s kind people.Read what I pasted above.

        • Raggs

          WOW.. dangit coal miner, the democractic party.

  • http://charden@neo.rr.com Charles

    To Denniso, Haven`t you heard there is no longer a Democrat party.
    It is now called the Progressive party.It was nice when we had two strong party,s. (The Democrat and Republican Parties)There are about
    45 true Democrats left.As far as Liberals are cocerned, you only have
    to go to Hillery Clinton and see what she had to say.Don`t call me a Liberal any more,call me a Progressive.(caught on tape and put on TV)
    What part don`t you understand, when President Obama says,we are going
    to transform America and redistribute the wealth.This is not a Liberal, this at best is a Progressive, just maybe, it might be
    someome who might be a Marxist.Wake up America before its to late.Don`t take someones word of whats going on in America find out for Yourself.Find out who the President as surouned himself with and what they stand for. Just a few to start you off and believe me there are alot more I can give you.> Van Jones, Bill Ayers, Jeff Jones, Andy Stern, John Pedesta,Seth Sethstien, Valorie Jarett, Anita Dunn, Acorn,The Apola Group.Rev Wright and of course,George Soros. Study these people and see what they have said on tape.
    Chuck

    • Karolyn

      I have posted this before, but it bears repeating. And I don’t think it sounds bad at all.

      What is progressivism?

      Progressivism is a term describing a political movement and ideology in which the subscribers believe in progress, change, or reform, particularly in regard to whom has control over the government.

      Progressives are generally considered to represent the far left; they tend not to like the status quo and see the current political climate as being dominated by corporate interests.

      Progressives embrace pluralism. Their platform includes social justice, pacifism, environmentalism, and human rights. They believe in the democratic process via more direct voter control and they champion consumer rights.

      Some Democrats, and a few Republicans, consider themselves to be Progressives. However, Progressives are not shy about criticizing the Obama Administration which they feel is not doing enough to fulfill the promise of equal rights for all (including gays) and to provide affordable health care for all (most Progressives believe in a single-payer system).

      The History of the Progressive Movement and its Founder “Fighting Bob” LaFollette

      The Progressive movement is said to have arisen out the industrial complex of the late 19th early 20th century. Sen. Robert M. LaFollete of Wisconsin is considered to be the Father of the Progressive movement.

      LaFollette served in Congress from 1906 to 1925. Prior to that he was Governor of Wisconsin (1901 – 1906) and a U.S. Representative (1885 – 1891). Interestingly, LaFollette was a Republican. However, he took issue with the changing ideals of Republican party which he believed had abandoned its anti-slavery origins and had become a tool for corporate interests. He began building an independent faction within the party that stressed voter control over what he percieved as control by industry and the railroads.

      The Progressive Party in the U.S.

      The Progress Party was founded in 1912 by Republican Theodore Roosevelt, after he lost the Republican nomination to William Howard Taft. The party became known as the Bull Moose Party. Roosevelt is said to have described the Progressive Party’sn platform as one “to destroy this invisible Government, to dissolve the unholy alliance between corrupt business and corrupt politics.” Political historians say that Roosevelt’s split from the Republican Party allowed the conservatives to gain control of that party, an ideology which it had not previously embraced.

      Robert LaFollette, however, took issue with Roosevelt and did not support the former President’s bid for re-election. LaFollette himself ran for President on the Progressive Party ticket in 1924, carrying Wisconsin as well as 17% of the national popular vote. Shortly after his defeat, the national party dissolved, although several state versions remained strong for awhile, including the Progressive Party of Wisconsin which was active from 1934 to 1946.

      The Progressive Movement Today

      The Progressive movement in the U.S. today represents more of a grassroots effort to bring about socio-political change. Many politicians desiring to avoid the label “liberal” have adopted the term “progressive” to describe their political leanings.

      The Center for American Progress founder John Podesta described the difference between liberals and progressives this way: “Liberals tend to care more about individual freedom, while progressives care more about the public good.”

      While some may think that to be a progressive means to be in favor of big government, in fact a true progressive would say they believe in “power to the people.” They see the government as the elected representation of the people and feel that the government ought to be more responsive to the needs of the people.

      Individuals who are active in promoting the progressive agenda include actor/activist Robert Redford, Rev. Jesse Jackson, historian Howard Zinn, Wisconsin’s Senator Russ Feingold, and Ohio’s Rep. Dennis Kucinich among many others.

      http://www.examiner.com/political-buzz-in-madison/politics101-what-is-a-progressive-what-is-progressivism

      • libertytrain

        Ah Fighting Bob – met and became acquainted with his illegitimate daughter, product of an affair – kind of Clinton-like in his personal habits – she moved to these parts from Wisconsin a few year back – lovely woman. Looks just like him.

      • http://gunner689 gunner689

        You can call a pig a rose, but it’s still a pig. Todays Progressive movement is all about gvt. control of every facet of our lives, from the womb to the tomb. To accomplish this they must destroy the Constitution and the rights of a free people it explains.

        • Robert Smith

          Gunner says: “Todays Progressive movement is all about gvt. control of every facet of our lives, from the womb to the tomb.”

          And the republican agenda is to control women and what might gestate within them from conception to birth and then forget about them.

          No health care for the women or their babies. That IS NOT pro-live, it is pro-death for millions without health care.

          Rob

  • Stan Smith

    @ Calan Limbaugh,Beck,Hannity,Levien,Savage and many other right wing talk show host are talking hate 24/7″
    Cite source If they did that FCC would pull the plug on them Long ago and The left No news media will have a field day on this!

    • Robert Smith

      Hey Stan… About that hate speech and violence. Check some of this out:

      On April 17, 2006, the self-appointed “America’s most beloved talk show host” said this (via MediaMatters.org):

      There are too many RDDBs [red-diaper doper babies, Savage's term for people supposedly raised by Marxist parents] in high places and in the media and in the courts for us to stand up to this fanatical enemy. And so unless the RDDB is reined in somehow or taken out of power, we’re going to die as a nation. I swear to God that’s what people are saying to me. And these are intelligent people, wealthy people. They are very depressed by the weakness that America is showing to these psychotics in the Muslim world. They say, “Oh, there’s a billion of them.” I said, “So, kill 100 million of them, then there’ll be 900 million of them.” I mean, would you rather die — would you rather us die than them? I mean, what is it going to take for you people to wake up? Would you rather we disappear or we die? Or would you rather they disappear and they die? Because you’re going to have to make that choice sooner rather than later.”
      From: Continue reading on Examiner.com: Savage Lies: Michael Savage does call for violence – National Michael Savage | Examiner.com http://www.examiner.com/michael-savage-in-national/savage-lies-michael-savage-does-call-for-violence#ixzz1Ar4n3jU0

      For Limbaugh you can go to: http://www.newscorpse.com/ncWP/?p=880

      Etc.

      There is zero doubt that these guys have been putting hateful stuff out for years.

      Whether or not it has an impact is up for debate. However I caution those who say that it has no impact and then turn around and say how horrable a “wordrobe malfunction” can be. Either media has influence or it doesn’t.

      My evidence? Companies pay huge amounts of money to influence people to buy their stuff. If the media has no influence then why are they spending all that money?

      Rob

  • 45caliber

    The real problem here is not whether either side encouraged the shooting as I don’t believe any retoric contributed to the shooting. I think it was all his own idea.

    The problem is that the liberals are trying to discredit people, for political reasons, who had nothing to do with this by insisting that they did and to use this as a way to encourage more gun control which wouldn’t have stopped the shooting if the gun control had been in place.

    The real problem is that they are so focused on taking guns away from honest citizens that they really don’t want to punish the criminals who commit the crimes.

    • Raggs

      You got it!
      I wonder how many sheeple will follow the leader of an obvious wolf in sheeps clothing?

      • 45caliber

        Usually about half.

        • bob wire

          about half is a conservative number for both left and right.

          It’s not so much being sheep but horses and the herding instinct. Horses are noble animals and extremely social.

  • JimH

    I hear the rhetoric from both sides, some of it hateful, some just very passionate expression of a point of view. I however, don’t have the urge to massacure people. I’m strong minded enough that I won’t let other peoples ranting take me there. Some may not be that strong, but to blame the people with a strong message for influencing someone is wrong. There should be acountability for ones own actions. I believe this man is just stark raving nuts and nobody PUSHED him in any direction. He did it on his own. Now everyone wants to play the blame game. Much of it shamelessly self serving and much of it is decietful. NEVER LET A GOOD CRISSIS GO TO WASTE. Shame on those trying to cash in on a tragity.

    • Robert Smith

      Hey JimH,

      You posted that you weren’t gonna let anything you see on TV influence you. Good for you.

      Why, on the other hand, are so many concerned if a breast, butt, or other certain parts of people show up on TV is there such a cry from the right? After all, TV isn’t supposed to have an “influence.”

      Rob

      • JimH

        Hi Rob, I wouldn’t call a bare butt on TV hate rhetoric. If seeing that caused some weak minded fool to shoot up a crowd of people, I guess someone would adress it.

  • http://marcum@wildblue.net coal miner

    Quote for the day:

    “God’s mind was behind complex scientific theories such as the Big Bang, and Christians should reject the idea that the universe came into being by accident”. Pope Benedict: Pope we can do without religious bullsh**t.Try perfect vacuum.

    • Raggs

      Too many day’s in the ground? Prehaps a little fresh air?

      • 45caliber

        I think he’s been breathing that stuff so long that a little fresh air would finish him off.

  • Ed Ste

    This shooting was a gay/jewish thing.
    Now that we know the conclusion, let’s find/create evidence supporting this. Bonus points for any illegal immigrant/”people of color” connections.
    With over 300 million people in the US, there is going to be at least one mentally imbalanced individual, probably more.

    • Raggs

      Oh come on mr.ed…
      Why are you tring to throw this spin?.. maybe your upset that the tea-party didn’t do it?

      • 45caliber

        Actually, he’s just issuing a challenge to those people who love conspiracies … such as the liberals.

        • eddie47d

          Do you really believe what you just said? There is an abundance of conspiracy theories we hear every day right here. So what’s up with that?

          • 45caliber

            Yes, there are. But the liberals tend to really love any conspiracy that puts the right into a bad light, you have to agree.

            Actually, conspiracy is about the same as paranouia. You aren’t paranoid if someone really IS out to kill you.

          • Raggs

            Nope…

            I think his point is that the liberals / progressives whatever you prefer to call the communist have nothing to stand on but blaming everyone else.. Even your so-called prez does it… Therefore how can one respect a slime of a man?

          • Bitter Libertarian

            There is a Big Difference Between Conspiracy theory and Conspiracy fact. The adjenda of the Global elites is simple, supress by what ever means every form of Truth that reveals their goals. Be that by deception, outright lies, or divide and conquer.

            Regardless of the Left or the Right Both sides want and DEMAND Freedom of Speech because they both like to talk. The Reality is that this one simple last freedom is the End game and the Left/Right battle is being used to take every other right before cinching the job with the end of free speech.

            The Elites (communists at heart) are bucking for Full control, and nothing less. Why is the USA their biggest target? They are the last example to the world of a Free society (good or bad we are it.)

  • calan

    To Stan Smith
    You are right the left talkers do it too.
    Im saying it needs to have some civility to it.

  • Ed Ste

    A crazy person not connected to anything other than the world he created for himself shot somebody. His connections to anything or larger group are creations by newspeople trying to stay employed instead of them searching for meaningful work.

    • 45caliber

      Exactly. Particularly the “meaningful work” part.

  • BobbyB

    OMFG
    How can one begin to compare the violent rhetoric of the left to the right. Sharon Engles calling for Second ammendment solutions if the election doesn’t go her way, Tea Partiers carrying “We came unarmed, this time signs, Limbaugh saying we need to keep a few libs around just to remind us. A guy on his way to murder everyone that worked at some place Beck didn’t like, Sarah Palin “Don’t retreat, reload, the list goes on and on.

    There’s a big difference between a bulls eye and a gun sight. A bulls eye is a target, a gun sight is part of the handy applicator.

    • 45caliber

      And the funny thing to me is:

      The libs are complaining that Sarah Palin’s ad showing a scope sight on AZ is BAD – but the same thing pointed at “Birthers” and “GOP” by a lib is excellent.

      • bob wire

        what in the frigging fock make you thing, MSNBC or any Tv station reflects the views heart and view of all Democrats?

        DO you endorse everything FOX broadcast?

        I detest this ! this perception so many of you have, carry and broadcast! It’s just a frigging TV PROGRAM!

        I sure hope FOX doesn’t represent all conservatives all of the time!

        If the nation is being ran by soap sellers ~ we deserve everything we got coming!

        • 45caliber

          bob:
          I don’t watch tv at all. Well, not things like FOX or CNN. I don’t have it hooked to an antenna or satellite. I watch movies on it and that is all. So don’t blame me for what FOX might say.

    • Raggs

      Booby.. I can only imagine that if the citizens didn’t have the right of self defence where the government would go… Prehaps the US could be more like North Korea?… So move your ass there!

  • dan a

    be sure that as you read things like this ,someone in government is working feverishly to produce some bill that will take more of our rights away ! the people will sit around and watch the distraction . thats all this kind of talk is a way to cover their next power grab .
    it truely takes a political mind to even try to gain from the deaths of good americans . and they try it every time some guy stops taking his meds all does the unthinkable.

    • 45caliber

      I know what you mean.

      Here in Texas, someone decided to take his kids to the beach. He blew up an inflatable raft that was bigger than the bed of his pickup. He set it on the pickup and put three small kids in it to hold it down. Then he drove to the beach.

      Crossing the Intracoastal Canal on a high wind, the wind caught the raft and flipped it (and the kids) off the pickup and over the side of the bridge. They fell about a hundred and twenty feet and were killed.

      So … now it is illegal in the state of Texas to allow kids to ride in the back of a pickup in any situation. Some politician saw this story and immediately jumped up with the bill to make sure another stupid idiot didn’t try to kill his own kids in some similar manner.

      • Raggs

        >45 there is no cure for stupid.
        But does stupid being a crime make the rest of us safe?

        • 45caliber

          I agree. But it is a control point for them. If you check, most “safety” laws are designed due to a ridiculously low problem to give the government more power over the citizens.

  • Carlucci

    Yes, the looney left will take this shooting in Arizona and run with it.

    Everyone needs to watch this short video from the link below. I was asking these same questions after I heard what happened. Shades of Columbine. The shooter lived with his parents. So far, nothing about them in the media. The community college he attended had a meeting with his parents months ago to tell them he was mentally unstable and could not come back to the school until he was evaluated by a mental health professional and given a clean bill of mental health. He was allegedly a pothead, but what kind of legal psychotropic drugs was he on?

    Thanks to Big Pharma, you probably will never hear the answers to these questions. Please forward this video to your email list:

    http://www.brasschecktv.com/page/1002.html

    • TIME

      Carlucci,

      Very good points, these were my very first thoughts when I started hearing about this event. Sad how many of our youth are on these mind bending drugs that just for the record, thats 1 out of every 3 males in US Public schools are on these ‘Federal mandated Drugs.”

      As well these are prescription drugs given by the STATE demanded by the FEDS to be given out to any youths who are no conforming to stated standards. The States want Federal moneys, thus they profile the students for any forms of behavior that fits these Federal Profiles.

      Yet how strange is it that to use profiling at air ports is a BIG NO NO. Anyone else see anything wrong with this?

      And whats the deal with the NEA, oh thats right they only care about Benift packages $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$.
      Oh how bloody silly of me to think that the Youths they teach may enter into the equation.

      • 45caliber

        My daughter’s teacher in the second grade told me wife she needed to get a prescription for Retlin for my daughter since she was “hyper”. Actually she wasn’t. It turned out that of 24 students in her class, 22 were on Retlin due to her request. And one of them was NOT my daughter. She simply wanted the kids to sit like zombies all day while she read a book.

        • Carlucci

          I believe it. I feel sorry for most kids today. Many are zonked out couch potatoes on “legal” drugs, brain dead from junk food, soda, t.v., computer, and video games. Many parents are so busy trying to make ends meet, or if in the upper income level, so in love with their big homes and gas guzzling SUVs that their kids get pushed to the side and ignored. And of course the schools don’t give a rat’s patootie about educating anyone; they are just babysitting. I’m so glad I’m not a kid in today’s world, and very happy that I never had kids.

          On the flip side, the kids next door to me are awesome. Very intelligent, healthy, and active, with excellent manners. They have always been home schooled and have never been vaccinated. Their mom used to be a successful pharmaceutical sales rep and saw the truth in that evil industry. She has been a health nut for many years and makes sure her kids are eating whole foods, and taking vitamins, minerals and supplements. They are also active in sports. It all starts with the family and parenting. Sadly, most people just don’t get it and never will.

          • 45caliber

            There are two unifying things that conflict with what the government wants. One is religion, which is why the Founders put Article 1 into the Bill of Rights – to stop the government from taking over a religion and using it to control the people. The other is the family unit. A good family unit has the parents (and grandparents) trying to do what is best for their children to the point of trying to see that their children have a better life than they did themselves. And that conflicts with socialism. I believe that Welfare was designed partly to destroy the family unit in the US by discouraging men from marrying women and setting up a family unit.

          • Karolyn

            I too am glad I gre up in the 50s and 60s and never had kids. However, I always point to my nieces and nephew as model kids. They were raised in a strict Catholic household and went to Catholic school. My brother and wife knew their friends and were active with the kids and their school. They grew into wonderful adults with good careers and marriages.

        • TIME

          45 Cal,

          I ask where is the outrage from the alledged Liberals? The media? What not enough $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ in the ratings values for them?

  • Will-CA

    Just an observation. If there is any truth in “The eyes are the window to the soul”
    That mug shot of Loughner screams volumes to me. He reminds me of another nut Manson. Pure EVIL!

    • 45caliber

      He certainly seems happy with himself, doesn’t he?

  • http://gunner689 gunner689

    I seriously doubt that this looney was a card carrying member of the John Birch Society or a regular listener to Rush. from the background material that is coming out about this character I’m inclined to believe he’s more likely a member of ELF. He’s an atypical pampered overgrown misfit that was coddled by his parents who accepted his weirdness and drug use. They need to trot out his parents and any other enablers along with the Columbine shooters parents. These people need to be held responsible for what they spawned along with their mutant children.

    • 45caliber

      I’m sorry but I totally disagree. Many times a parent simply has a child that has anti-social tendencies. In other words, he’s a born criminal. And the parents have no more ability to control him than the government authorities do.

      Further, most people like the shooters at Columbine and more than likely this idiot have great ability at convincing parents and others that they are “really nice people who simply want to be alone with themselves.” So don’t automatically blame others.

      Besides, I think we – as a society – are far too interested in punishing SOMEONE – anyone – than we are in solving a problem or accepting that it was actually an accident. If a shooter does kill himself, then the call is to punish someone else for not stopping him.

      Let’s punish the ones who committed the crime – if they are still around – and try to see that fewer people do the same thing in the future rather than trying to blame someone who is still alive so we can find someone to punish.

      • http://gunner689 gunner689

        Jeffrey Damler’s parents said he was such a nice boy, everybody loved him. We were all surprised that he did those things. forget that he’d been slaughtering small animals in their basement. These people know they’re just in denial and act as enablers. same goes for schools and the police in many cases. Most of these cretins have a track record.

        • Robert Smith

          But what about THEIR rights, gunner?

          If someone in YOUR family were on the edge what would you do?

          What if you couldn’t afford it?

          Rob

          • libertytrain

            I may be totally wrong and that’s surely to be corrected if I am, but if one has a mentally ill person in one’s family – particularly if they are over 18 or 21 depending on state law etc. You have no right to do much for them if they don’t allow you to help. That’s part of the problems with colleges/universities. Once your child is over 18 even if you are paying their way, they won’t tell you anything because it would violate that child’s rights. I recall years ago when the boy along with myself was at his Virginia Tech Parent/Student’s weekend to get all the rules and regulations and familiarize us and student with the school, they specifically told us that legally they could not keep us informed on how the student is doing, etc.

  • ted houser

    This author has some of the facts right. However, it is the violence saturated hate speech from the “right” that has instigated this mess. Sarah Palin is indeed part of the blame. Posting cross hairs on the victim of this crime, as well as her constant mantra: “don’t retreat, reload”…does nothing but trigger maniacs like the perpetrator of this abhorent crime!!!

    • TIME

      Ted,
      Your post is without question one of the most aggressively ignorant post I have seen in some time.
      Good for you, your really a brain trust!

      • Robert Smith

        But the cross hairs WERE there. You can’t deny that.

        Were they “misinterprited?” If they had no influence why was anyone worried about a wardrobe falfunction?”

        BTW, do you know what litte kids were thinking about that? “Oh Boy!!!! chocolate milk for lunch!” They weren’t old enough to put it in any sexual context. So, who are you “protecting?” Or, was it just another right wing non-issue?

        Rob

    • Raggs

      ted… Any kin to jared?

    • http://gunner689 gunner689

      I doubt this cretin knew who Sara Palin is or what she says. He gets his info from his IPod and the other freaks he associates with.

      • Robert Smith

        Actually gunner he drifted away from his friends and was pretty much a loaner for the last couple of years.

        Do you think he should have been able to get treatment if he couldn’t afford it? Him in treatment would have saved lives. Same thing with the guy in VA.

        Why do you deny them treatment?

        Oh! I got it, I got it!!!!!!! Simple GREED. You don’t want any tax $$$$$$ going to treat someone else. My my… so selfish and so many died.

        Rob

        • libertytrain

          Who denied him treatment? Did he seek it?

    • Angel Wannabe

      Ted, blaming heated political debate for causing a wackjob to mow down a bunch of innocent people at a town meeting, makes about as much sense as trying to make a snowman in hell!

      • libertytrain

        Angel – beautifully said.

      • Robert Smith

        Hey Angel,

        If treatment would have helped do you think he should have been able to get it even if he couldn’t afford it?

        So many dead, so few from the right seem concerned that treatment may have saved lives.

        That doesn’t sound like pro-life to me. It sounds like pro-death, big time.

        Rob

        • libertytrain

          Who denied him treatment – did he seek it?

  • Raggs

    What is the cure for stupid?

    This nation can go the way of Hitler and breed it out of the population as the progressives would have it or limit those that are not worthy of the progressive agenda.. Or this nation can come to grips in the real world where there is evil behind every tree.

    How many times do we hear… See something do something… This is based on a FALSE program of indoctrination to the masses to which they ( elite )would have you believe you can call 911 and everything will be ok.

    I dont know about you but if someone pulls a gun on me i’m not going for my cell phone!

    • 45caliber

      Raggs:

      I’m certain that any liberal will assure you that if you pull your telephone the criminal will be more than happy to wait as you dial, ask for the police and then wait for the police to show up before shooting you. Besides, wouldn’t it violate his rights to lock him up? You wouldn’t want to do that, would you?

      • Raggs

        Oh .45 I was hoping that he would rape my child and steal my liberty before it went that far.

        Oh shit.. that is the government… Ok so lets start over…

        Well I would come up with some lies that I could sell like mad-off but I think that the government has all of those tied by my money.

      • Robert Smith

        45 says: “I’m certain that any liberal will assure you that if you pull your telephone the criminal will be more than happy to wait as you dial,”

        When seconds count the police will be there in minutes.

        If anyone is threatening I can assure you that is a circumstance in which I approve of violence.

        Don’t lump all who you call (as an insult) liberals into one dump truck.

        Rob

    • eddie47d

      Keep crying wolf over gun confiscation when it is not happening is a sure way to make you look paranoid. Then it will happen!

      • Raggs

        Your bullshit!

        • eddie47d

          No, Yours!

  • ASGreen

    You should be ashamed Ben. This kind of crazy (call it what it is, indiscriminate murder) has nothing to do with the Left or the Right. It has to do with a lone nut bent on bloodshed. How does politics from the Left even figure into it? I don’t like President Obama or his Party much, but to write about this from the perspective of a Libertarian makes no sense at all. I sometimes find your columns have a lot of hate in them which you try to disguise with your humor and your $10 words.

    • Robert Smith

      Do you know what is embarassing about all this?

      The fact that in AZ with relaxed gun laws didn’t have someone on the scene to take the nut out.

      Goes to prove that when a bunch of unarmed liberals gather without guns that the nut with a gun is dangerous.

      Seems to me that if there was a “conservative” in that mob with a gun he wanted to let the carnage continue to get rid of liberals. (not really but that is an example of how the right wing folks twist things get a dig into liberals.)

      Rob

  • Dennis

    Ahhh yes.That inanimate object “The gun” so evil, so perverse.We must get rid of them all, huh.Never dawns on the gun grabbin whackos that if someone there that day with a gun and trained could have possibly stopped this or that the young man could have just as easily used a car or truck and maybe killed even more.There are many ways to kill our fellow human beings and blaming guns makes as much sense as screaming at the baseball bat that ya got hit with by the thug using it.Whos fault was it? the baseball bat or the thug? The man pulling the trigger or the gun?

    • Robert Smith

      Dennis, apparently you don’t know how things work around here. If there is any way to spin it it would be a “liberal’s” fault.

      The fact is that out of 330 million people I’m surprised we don’t have more of this. There are a lot of nut cases out there.

      Too bad someone didn’t drop the perp though. It would have been a good case for getting rid of some gun controls.

      Rob

  • Kim

    I am not sure that this is worth responding to. Is it all hate and envy between Left, Right, liberal, conservative, we are all supposed to be Americans. Some Christian some not. Has it come to the point that the hate of others stops us from being able to discuss topics of importance and come to a compromise. Things like these are what causes war. It is give and take, and not from the rich for the poor, although we have been doing just that for years trough taxes. It looks like the ones in the middle may be right, at least on most issues they can see how and why the left or the right want things a certain way, but sure there are things worth fighting over, such as freedom, the right to be a christian or not, to believe in God or not, even the right to choose a field or line of work. The right to live in the city or a rural area. The list goes on and on. But to hate because of different political views, or skin color, religion, sexual preferences, and the list keeps going, just shoud not be. There was plenty of information on this guy and his emotional state, that he could have been stopped if the reports are right. It is not left or right, democrat or republican, christain or jew or islamic or atheist, that makes an American. When the American figures out what the common denominator is, then maybe we can be Americans first again.

  • Raggs

    We can always dial 911 when a gun is in our face.

  • JeffH

    No Hate Speech by Prominent Leftists?
    3/5/2007
    Below I have listed more than 20 examples of hate speech by prominent leftist figures, such as politicians, journalists writing for major newspapers or radio networks, television and movie industry personalities, and the like.

    I have restricted the examples to true hate speech, such as calling for (or exulting over) the beating and/or deaths of conservatives, or naked racism and anti-Semitism. I have deliberately excluded speech that simply brands conservatives as Nazis or fascists. Such speech is hateful, but I want to leave minimum room for leftists to quibble with the list.

    Brace yourself for the leftist hate:

    National Public Radio legal affairs correspondent Nina Totenberg:

    [I]f there is retributive justice [Sen. Jesse Helms] will get AIDS from a transfusion, or one of his grandchildren will get it.

    USA Today syndicated columnist Julianne Malveaux, on Clarence Thomas:

    I hope his wife feeds him lots of eggs and butter and he dies early like many black men do, of heart disease.

    Washington Post syndicated columnist Richard Cohen:

    For hypocrisy, for sheer gall, [Newt] Gingrich should be hanged.

    Comedian and (former) talk show host Craig Kilborn [Caption under footage of George W. Bush]:

    Snipers Wanted

    Members of the St. Petersburg Democratic Club:

    And then there’s Rumsfeld who said of Iraq “We have our good days and our bad days.” We should put this S.O.B. up against a wall and say “This is one of our bad days” and pull the trigger.

    Actor Alec Baldwin on Conan O’Brien:

    [I]f we were in other countries, we would all right now, all of us together, all of us together would go down to Washington and we would stone Henry Hyde to death! We would stone him to death! [crowd cheers] Wait! Shut up! Shut up! No shut up! I’m not finished. We would stone Henry Hyde to death and we would go to their homes and we’d kill their wives and their children. We would kill their families.

    Comedian Chris Rock:

    If President Clinton would pardon me I would whip Starr’s ass right now. I will get a crew from Brooklyn and we will stomp him like, like, we’re Savion Glover. We’ll stomp him like it’s bringing da noise.

    Director Spike Lee on Charlton Heston:

    Shoot him with a .44 caliber Bulldog.

    James Carville on Ken Starr:

    He’s one more mistake away from not having any kneecaps.

    Syndicated columnist Alexander Cockburn:

    There is a sound case to be made for dropping a tactical nuclear weapon on the Cuban section of Miami. The move would be applauded heartily by most Americans. Alas, Operation Good Riddance would require the sort of mature political courage sadly lacking in Washington, D.C., these days.

    Columnist, author, media pundit, journalist, and newspaper editor Dan Savage:

    My plan? Get close enough to Bauer to give him the flu, which, if I am successful, will lay him flat just before the New Hampshire primary. I’ll go to Bauer’s campaign office and cough on everything. Phones and pens. Staplers and staffers. I even hatch a plan to infect the candidate himself; I’ll keep a pen in my mouth until Bauer drops by his offices to rally the troops. And when he does, I’ll approach him and ask for his autograph, handing him the pen from my flu-virus-incubating mouth.

    That column also appeared on Salon.com. It was a little more than hate “speech” — the guy actually did try to give Gary Bauer the flu.

    It’s racism you want?

    Democrat Senator Robert Byrd:

    There are white niggers. I’ve seen a lot of white niggers in my time. I’m going to use that word.

    Democrat presidential candidate Jesse Jackson on Jews:

    Hymies

    and on New York City:

    Hymietown

    During his presidential campaign, Jesse Jackson was linked with (and refused to denounce) Louis Farrakhan, who has at times been linked with the Congressional Black Caucus, which also supported his Million Man March. Farrakhan is a man of the left who has been a harsh critic of President Bush.

    Here’s Farrakhan on Jews:

    Many of the Jews who owned the homes, the apartments in the black community, we considered them bloodsuckers because they took from our community and built their community but didn’t offer anything back to our community.

    Farrakhan on Pope John Paul II:

    no good cracker

    Farrakhan on white people:

    White people are potential humans – they haven’t evolved yet.

    And again:

    Murder and lying comes easy for white people.

    Does it count as “hate” speech if you say you “hate” Republicans?

    Howard Dean:

    I hate the Republicans and everything they stand for . . .

    Back to assassination wishes:

    British pundit Charlie Brooker, during the presidency of George W. Bush:

    John Wilkes Booth, Lee Harvey Oswald, John Hinckley Jr. — where are you now that we need you?

    Actual elected officials have engaged in hate speech:

    Democrat Representative Pete Stark, speaking to a Republican:

    You think you are big enough to make me, you little wimp? Come on. Come over here and make me, I dare you. You little fruitcake.

    Alabama Democratic congressional incumbent Earl Hilliard, on challenger, Artur Davis:

    Davis and the Jews, No Good for the Black Belt

    Let’s not forget the bloggers:

    Markos Moulitsas Zuniga crowed over the death of American contractors in Iraq:

    I feel nothing over the death of merceneries [sic]. They aren’t in Iraq because of orders, or because they are there trying to help the people make Iraq a better place. They are there to wage war for profit. Screw them.

    Duncan “Atrios” Black discussing ABC’s The Note:

    [M]y take on The Note has always been, with apologies to Douglas Adams:

    A bunch of mindless jerks who will be first up against the wall when the revolution comes.

    Huffington Post blogger Tony Hendra wished for Dick Cheney to die:

    O Lord, give Dick Cheney’s Heart, Our Sacred Secret Weapon, the strength to try one more time! For greater love hath no heart than that it lay down its life to rid the planet of its Number One Human Tumor.

    http://patterico.com/2007/03/05/leftist-hate-speech/

    • Raggs

      It only proves that they are stupid.
      And I mean stupid, otherwise I would have to call them something like miss-guided or as the left would have it “an aspiring figure”.
      No wonder we have a complete ass some call a leader.

    • JeffH

      If anyone cares to see some real unhinged hate from the liberal left then go no further than this link.
      http://michellemalkin.com/2011/01/10/the-progressive-climate-of-hate-an-illustrated-primer-2000-2010/

      The progressive “climate of hate:” An illustrated primer, 2000-2010

      PALIN HATE…On the pages of Getty Images featured a image of a man pointing a fake gun at the head of a Sarah Palin likeness sitting next to a cardboard cutout of her daughter in a museum display.
      “ABORT Sarah Palin” stickers. Palin-hating artwork designating her an “M.I.L.P.” (Mother I’d Like to Punch). Hat tip: Edge of Forever. Madonna bashing Sarah Palin and shrieking “I will kick her ass:”
      Sandra Bernhard bashing Sarah Palin and cursing her head off with hate warping her crazed face and then trying to defend her Palin-will-get-gang-raped joke.

      Then there is the Democratic Underground’s latest thread for commenters to come up with nicknames and posters to slime GOP Alaska Gov. Sarah Palin — and then to “spread [them] all over the ‘net.” There are now nearly 100 filthy, hate-filled responses and counting. Among the “nicer” entries: “Cruella,” “Gidget,” “Governor Jesus Camp,” “VPILF,” “Fertilla the Huntress,” “Iditabroad,” and “KILLER PYSCHO FUNDIE BITCH FROM HELL!!”

      • Denniso

        Hard to believe that anyone on the face of the earth would dream of Cheny coming back as a ‘leader’. Talk about a total lack of judgement from one of the true ‘elites’ in the country…’we will be welcomed as liberators’…’Iraq’s oil resources will pay for the war’…’there is NO doubt at all that Iraq has WMD’….What a total buffoon and selfish warmonger. Dick Cheny for,for,for…nothing. Take a nap Dick,and keep your lousy and malicious hands and mind off our country. Go duck hunting, or better yet,stay home where you can’t hurt anybody.

        • JeffH

          Well, if it isn’t the lead hater making another appearance.

          LOCK N LOAD and KEEP SOME POWDER DRY!

          • eddie47d

            Well Jeff I see you are stirring up plenty of dust so what does that make you? …an equal opportunity nut job. As I said the left and right can say some horrific things and this has certainly proved to be an eye opener.

          • JeffH

            eddddiiieeee, gotta go a long, long ways to top you and denniso as a “nut job”!

          • libertytrain

            Jeff – I went to the Malkin website you posted to look at the article itself. The visuals of the absolute murderous hate of the products displayed, videos etc was more than a shocking event to me. I knew the hate was there by the lib left, but it’s obscene to see it in color and hear it on the Madonna video, that idiot woman comic, talking about Sarah getting gang raped by the comic’s black bros if she comes to New York. Stunning testimonial of the “gentle” left and talk incitement – just watch the Madonna video. Or how about that KILL Bush t-shirt – nice -

          • eddie47d

            Malkin has been an extreme ,in your face commentator for as long as I can remember. If you want someone to stir the pot and stoke the fires then she is your go to gal. I’ll take Limbaugh over her anyday and he is just plain weird. As far as the nasty verbiage from the left they can also go to hell. We don’t need them either.

          • JeffH

            libertytrain, what I like about Michelle Malkin is her straight forward, in your face, tell it like it is honesty…no PC with her. I find her approach to the liberal left in some ways very similar to that of Ted Nugent towards the anti-hunting and anti-gun establishment…don’t mince the words, present things as they are, not as some want to hear. Very straightforward.

          • libertytrain

            I agree. I don’t have a problem with her but of course, understand why the Eddie’s do. The truth hurts.

      • Karolyn

        These are obviously things that those of us on a higher plane would know nothing about. That’s not the kind of thing I look for.

        • libertytrain

          Don’t fall off – balance is crucial.

    • Karolyn

      Most are obviously sick people. However, Farrakhan was right about the Jews owning the slums. Let’s face it, they are on both “sides”. I listen to NPR but have never heard Nina Totenberg and never want to if this is how she talks.

      • Denniso

        Nina Totenburg is a legal expert and does not talk like that.

        • JeffH

          Totenberg On Helms Comment: ‘It Was A Stupid Remark’

          Totenberg called her comments “dumb” and read from letters she had sent over the years saying so in reply to complaints about those remarks. “It taught me a lesson about being careful,” Totenberg said. “I haven’t said anything that stupid on the air in 15 years.”

          In 1995, on the syndicated political television program Inside Washington, guests including Totenberg turned to a proposal by the North Carolina senator that Congress reduce spending on AIDS research. Totenberg said, “I think he ought to be worried about the — about what’s going on in the good Lord’s mind, because if there’s retributive justice, he’ll get AIDS from a transfusion or one of his grandchildren will get it.”

          • libertytrain

            Jeff am guessing that the D must agree with her assessments since he said she wouldn’t say dumb things cause she a legal expert. Hmmm.
            Nina Totenberg quotes
            Sourced
            * [On Senator Jesse Helms] I think he ought to be worried about what’s going on in the Good Lord’s mind, because if there is retributive justice, he’ll get AIDS from a transfusion, or one of his grandchildren will.

            * Inside Washington, PBS, July 8, 1995.

            * [On General William Boykin] I hope he’s not long for this world.

            * After a rebuke, corrected herself: “No, no. I mean, in his job. In his job, in his job, please, in his job.”

            * Inside Washington, PBS, October 10, 2003. Partial Transcript by NPR ombudsman.

      • libertytrain

        Karolyn, I don’t understand what you meant when you said this above whatever do you mean?
        “Farrakhan was right about the Jews owning the slums.”

  • http://gunner689 gunner689

    If the shotter had been a Muslim the debate would be over by now and the gvt. cover up would have begun. Remember Ft. Hood and the silence that soon followed the event?

    • Denniso

      You think the gov’t is soft on Muslim criminals? That’s why we have many in prison for life and many rotting away in jails having had no trial as of yet? You don’t make any sense,I’m afraid. The FT Hood killer is locked away and will never see the light of day…what are you worried about, that he’s out of the news?

      • http://gunner689 gunner689

        This gvt. doesn’t want to face the fact that almost all terrorist acts are muslim oriented. As to the Gitmo detainees, they should set them adrift in a leaky boat. sharks have to eat to. as to the Ft. Hood murderer did you notice how the gvt. and the media bent over backwards to play down the fact that he was a terrorist agent. What’s going on with his court-martial? This is a military trial and should take about two days to convene. They didn’t waste this kind of time with McVeah.

        • Denniso

          It took yrs for McVeigh to be executed…

          • libertytrain

            only 6 years, short by normal standards with appeal after appeal after appeal and then of course, they need to appeal.

          • http://marcum@wildblue.net coal miner

            Denniso,

            Mcveigh volunteered to be executed.He was a rightwing nutjob.

            http://www.papillonsartpalace.com/timothy.htm · Cached page

          • libertytrain

            yes coal, I very well remember -

          • Denniso

            Hi Coal…and isn’t it too bad that McVeigh took the easy way out,and we helped him? If he had had to stay in prison for life and maybe think about what he had done,that would have been much better punishment for the murderer. Also,we could have probed the mind and motivation of a mass murderer and maybe learned something.

          • libertytrain

            Perhaps that was his last joke on us – they granted his wishes for no more appeals and a firing squad.

          • Kim

            Well McViegh should have had to sit and watch videos of all the children that he killed for the rest of his natural life, lived on bread and water, never saw the light of sun, and never allowed to see or speak to anyone until he was ready to tell all and maybe, just maybe, he might have told the rest of the story about all that were involved. and the far right and the far left are both dangerous to the rest of country mainly because of thier hate

          • Denniso

            McVeigh should have been locked up for life,had to pick up trash and dead dogs on the highways,scrubbed grafitti off walls,cleaned the bathrooms in prison w/ a toothbrush…

            There are many rightwingers who think he was set up by the gov’t or that he deserves respect for landing a blow on the gov’t.

  • http://gunner689 gunner689

    sorry, meant shooter. damn fingers.

  • http://GOGGLE vaksal

    this display of evil from this twisted monster,just points to the evil that has overtaken this republic for many many years starting with waco texas,where innocent childern were killed,and ruby ridge,and the oklahoma mass murder of innocent people,and one evil by those who lead by example,by those who govern show the way,then those who decide by this lawless atitude,do more evil,and just for what gain or purpose? i came from a differant america,where justice once ruled this nation,i think of my grandchildern and fear for there very safety in these lawless times,where government by example ,protect these lawless crazies,doing this harm,its time to start doing their work enforcing all the laws on the books,starting to get rid of the human scum being fed at the cost of every victim they kill,a trial should not be given to this lunatic,it seems that sanity has lost its meaning in this new world order,and has been replaced with all american citizens being put in harms way,just so both those who cry its inhuman to exicuite these killers,then on the other hand wish to disarm the innocent,i ask this point,wheres the justice or the honor or the protection under the law for anyone,now its being tossed around to limit freedom of speech and the right to protect ones own loved ones,my heart breaks for all those innocent dead people,for their lives were robbed by all the folks that caused this termoil in this nation,and the end result is one lunatic and why? for the new world order created this monster.and more will come,because of those people wont or refuse to do the right thing,and that is to declared war on lawbreakers on every level of this nations ranks,and the type of war is to try them and put them in the prison system,to be exicuted,this is the saddest day for this great republic,because we all have this burned into our hearts forever,and where it will end only GOD knows.

  • Will-CA

    Too bad this country has become so PC. All this controversy over him is giving this worthless murdered all the fame he was after. And as our system is today he will probably get to enjoy his fame for another thirty years or more. We can speculate until we blue in the face and it won’t change the fact that Loughner committed multiple murders witnessed by hundreds. Nor will all this prevent the next evil doer. He should be given a SPEEDY TRIAL and put to death ASAP. He does not deserve to bask in his evil accomplishment. More importantly let the next would be murderer know they won’t be rewarded for their cowardice.

    • http://gunner689 gunner689

      I’ve always believed that any crime that results in the death of a child should be handled as an irrovocable death penalty case.

  • http://PersonalLibertyDigest Naomi

    Folks, it’s no wonder the country and the world are in ruins. Mr. Crystal’s article is clear as glass, and yet so many of you are in denial. Dick Francis, a favorite author, has quoted in one of his books, “Entrenched belief is never altered by the facts.”

    If any of you guys who are attacking talk radio hosts, Fox News, Sarah Palin, you really aren’t listening to them. It’s obvious, you’re just parroting the main stream media. If you listened to them seriously, and then compared them to MSNBC,NBC,CBS,ABC,CNN,NPR, etc.,you would be able to understand who the hate mongers really are. But as Dick Francis says, it doesn’t do any good to say this, you aren’t listening. You are right, I am wrong, period. That’s arrogance,and deafness. And the worst of it all, you vote!

    • Karolyn

      “You are right, I am wrong, period. you say the same thing! I do not hear this type of rhetoric on ABC, my channel of choice, nor do I hear it on NPR. Do you listen to them?

      • Denniso

        The hate speech and villifying of political opponents and demonizing of fellow humans occurs mostly on rightwing radio and internet and some on Foxnews. The rightwing villifies the main stream press w/ names like ‘lamestream’ press,and ignore the fact that they continue to try to report the news w/o engaging in hate speech. The rightwing would love it if the mainstream press did get down in the dirt w/ them because they could then denounce them for doing just that.

        • libertytrain

          I thought you were open minded in the beginning of my time here. I was wrong. Open your eyes and see that there is no less and far more literal leftist hate – ie, hope he gets aids, hope he’s not long for this world”, ‘let her come to my town, my black brothers will gang rape her’,'I want to stomp on her’ —- these were just a few of the things I see just today – without trying.

          • Denniso

            You’re just wrong…

    • http://gunner689 gunner689

      Naomi: there is truth in the statement; Never try to teach a pig to sing. it’s a waste of time and it annoys the hell out of the pig.

      Our left wing friends will never understand the truth, it’s not in their DNA. They’re stuck on stupid.

      • Denniso

        I wonder how it is that ‘leftwingers’ can’t ‘understand the truth’ when the Democrats and liberals have a higher level of education than the right? Somehow, by studying science,literature,philosophy,psychology,economics and more renders the left dumber than the right? How’s that work?

        • JeffH

          Denniso, why do you say and feel, time and time again, that higher education is synonomous with Democrats and liberals? That, in itself, is a statement of the ignorant.

          Simple to answer…it’s called “common sense”, something that the highest levels of education can never teach and obviously something you are lacking.

          • libertytrain

            When there is nothing to validate an argument, work on the pretense that one is educated therefore smarter,

          • Denniso

            ‘nothing to validate the argument’? You mean like the argument that ‘Democrats just can’t understand or see the truth’? The supposed truth that the rightwing talks about is no such thing as truth..it’s flimsy opinion that is counter to all historical ‘truth’. It’s a fantasy ideology that doesn’t exist anywhere but in your mind. It’s essentially meaningless phrases and cliches that w/o context and more detail are just that,meaningless.
            Freedom.liberty,patriot,smaller gov’t,guns,less spending,evil gov’t,family values…none of those are absolutes and all require qualification and further definition. For example, there are people out there right now who believe that the killings in Tucson are the act of a ‘patriot’. There are many who believe that Cheny is a patriot,and many others who believe that he is a war criminal.

            The rightwing throws out simplistic cliches and actually thinks(are they that dumb?)that passes for deep thinking and rigorous study,and a firm ideology.

  • Will-CA

    Sorry for the typo “worthless murderer”

  • JeffH

    Rush Limbaugh’s sin is his admission that he wants to see Obama fail. Apparently all those Democrats and reporters who expressed the same desire in relation to Reagan, Bush, or any other right-of-center leader had a get out of jail free card. In fact, opposition opinion as expressed by hosts such as Limbaugh and Beck is fairly mild compared to what the left says about them.

    Nancy Pelosi said this in 2009: I think we all have to take responsibility for our actions and our words. We are a free country and this balance between freedom and safety is one that we have to carefully balance. I saw this myself in the late seventies in San Francisco. This kind of rhetoric was very frightening and it gave–it created a climate in which violence took place. I wish that we all again would curb our enthusiasm in some of the statements that are made, with the understanding that some of the ears this is falling on are not as balanced as the person making the statement might assume.

    Now let’s see how her fellow Democrats actually speak:

    Howard Dean – Former governor, head of DNC: I hate Republicans and everything they stand for.

    Barack Obama – Former senator, President of the United States: If they bring a knife to the fight, we bring a gun.

    Jesse Jackson – Reverend, former presidential candidate: [H]ate and hurt are on a roll in America. If what was happening here was happening in South Africa, it’d be called racist apartheid. If it was happening in Germany, we’d call it Nazism. And in Italy, we’d call it fascism. Here we call it conservatism.

    Tip O’Neill – Former Speaker of the House: The evil is in the White House at the present time. And that evil is a man who has no care and no concern for the working class of America and future generations of America and who likes to ride a horse. He’s cold. He’s mean. He’s got icewater for blood.

    Al Gore – Former Senator and vice president: He betrayed this country! He played on our fears! He took America on an ill-conceived foreign adventure dangerous to our troops, an adventure pre-ordained and planned before 9/11 ever took place!

    Nina Totenberg – NPR Journolist: [B]ecause if there is retributive justice, he’ll [Jesse Helms] get AIDS from a transfusion, or one of his grandchildren will.

    Alec Baldwin – Actor: We would stone Henry Hyde to death and we would go to their homes and we’d kill their wives and their children. We would kill their families.

    Mike Malloy – Radio talk show host: I am only hoping that when Glenn Beck does put a gun to his head and pulls the trigger, that it’s on television, because somebody will capture it on YouTube and it will be the most popular little piece of video for the month.

    Timothy Horrigan – NH state representative: [A] dead Palin would be even more dangerous than a live one…she is all about her myth.

    Jeremiah Wright – Reverend and Obama’s pastor for 20 years: God damn America for treating our citizens as less than human. God damn America for as long as she acts like she is God and she is supreme.

    Harry Belafonte – Actor: There are those slaves who lived on the plantation, and there were those slaves who lived in the house. You got the privilege of living in the house if you served the master to exactly the way the master intended to have you serve him. That gave you privilege. Colin Powell is permitted to come into the house of the master, as long as he will serve the master according to the master’s dictates.

    Keith Olbermann – Journolist, Talk show host: Please, sir, do not throw this country’s principles away because your lies have made it such that you can no longer differentiate between the terrorists and the critics.

    Harry Reid – Senator: The man’s father is a wonderful human being; I think this guy is a loser.

    Paul Krugman – Journolist: A message to progressives: By all means, hang Senator Joe Lieberman in effigy.

    Stephen Crockett – Radio talk show host: If I had my way, I would see Katherine Harris and Ken Blackwell strapped down to electric chairs and lit up like Christmas trees.

    Bill Maher – Comedian: I have zero doubt that if Dick Cheney was not in power, people wouldn’t be dying needlessly tomorrow….I’m just saying if he did die, other people, more people would live. That’s a fact.

    Nancy Pelosi – Politician: Drowning out opposing views [on healthcare] is simply un-American. Drowning out the facts is how we failed at this task for decades.

    Courtland Milloy – Journolist: I want to spit on them [Tea Party], take one of their “Obama Plan White Slavery” signs and knock every racist and homophobic tooth out of their Cro-Magnon heads.

    Randi Rhodes – Radio talk show host: A spoiled child (Bush) is telling us our Social Security isn’t safe anymore, so he is going to fix it for us. Well, here’s your answer, you ungrateful whelp: [audio sound of 4 gunshots being fired.] Just try it, you little bastard. [audio of gun being cocked].

    Ted Rall – Journolist: It’s unfortunate that drivers must worry that their SUVs are being targeted by insulting stickers and Molotov cocktails, but one thing’s for sure: It couldn’t be happening to a more deserving group of people.

    Wanda Sykes – Radio talk show host: I think Rush Limbaugh was the 20th hijacker but he was just so strung out on Oxycontin he missed his flight.

    Spike Lee – Director: Shoot him [Charleton Heston] with a .44 caliber Bulldog.

    And the Daily Kos Put a Bulls Eye on Giffords in 08.
    http://sharpelbowsstl.blogspot.com/2011/01/daily-kos-put-bulls-eye-on-giffords-in.html

    • bob wire

      So? what’s your plan Jeff? Blind support for the RNC? or something more dramatic?

      • Denniso

        And I don’t believe half of those are true anyway. Because he found then on the web they’re true? I don’t think so.

        • JeffH

          …wouldn’t expect anything less from you…

      • JeffH

        Gee, bob, why don’t you tell me???

        • JeffH

          Sparky…

  • http://none Daniel

    Bob Schiefer had a good summary about all of this on “Face The Nation” on January 9, 2011. It’s less than 2 minutes, but gets to the essence of the power of words. Reading above comments helps me to reflect on the power of words, and how we use and misuse them. If interested, you can view his summary here: http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=7228146n&tag=contentMain;contentBody

  • jopa

    Well after it’s all said and done in the end the republican party is known as the party of death.The last two republican presidents what was the outcome?Three wars and hundreds of thousands dead and wounded.Who wants to have weapons with ammo clips that hold dozens of rounds and what for?Who comes up with these campaign posters with crosshairs on opposing candidates, the republicans.Who wants to build a military big enough to destroy the world ten times over because their even afraid of their own shadow.You guessed it the republicans.What is the worst and most destructive thing imaginable to a republican?Health care that would make America a better place.If you ask a republican for billions to bomb someone they would say you got. It’s as though they have huge investments in bodybags.

  • UnpopedKernals

    Somehow I knew I would be reading something like these posts before too long.

  • bob wire

    jopa, is just fevered candor.

    The left is using some hard evidence and attempting to lay it at “conservatives” door step.

    They don’t care for this very much and fight back with everything they can think of from the beginning of time.

    This is an awful thing that’s happened by one “individual” and we are all hurting. It’s a bad thing to suggest any one group of people is guilty in partial or sum for the act of one crazed boy child.

    All this is doing ~ is widening the divide in time of great sorrow.

    I think the small factions inside the left sees this as a potential stepping stone to more gun control. The fairy crowd, ~ the left has it’s extreme element along with their agenda just like the “right”

    Sadly, they have something to work with today and I guarantee you, they are going to use it and play it for all it’s worth and to hell with any “right wingers” feeling.

    Now, we can all get naked and beat each other up with a dirty sock, get mad, get even,~ get mad some more. Or we can realize people are just acting out their grief and sorrow with what has happened and in due time, this painful hurting it will subside.

    We can’t allow this tragic event to shift our focus and diminish our resolve to make government work better for all Americans that are actively engaged in the process and want to hold our government true to American values.

    Today, our enemies look on. Tonight while we sleep I take comfort in knowing someone is assigned lookout. I can’t do this alone and neither can any of you.

    If you are one to pray, now is a good time. and if you are not ~ that is perfectly fine and completely up to you. Maybe Go to your happy place and think kind thoughts for those you find deserving and in need of support this night.

  • Jim

    the communist democrat party is running scared trying to find a scapegoat to pin this tragedy on when all they have to do is look in the mirror, Chairman obama ,NAZI pelosi, Heir reid, these little hitler wannabes have been giving the American people the middle finger for the last two years it was only a matter of time befour someone got sick of these un American bastards and in keeping up their communist manifesto of ” NEVER LET A GOOD CRISES GO TO WASTE ” they didn’t even Wait till the first victims name was released to pin the blame on Sarah Palin and any other conservative they could come up with BHO=PUBLIC ENEMY # ONE

    • Denniso

      listen to Limbaugh and Michael Savage and others say that liberals have to be eliminated,that liberalism is a mental disorder,that Democrats are depraved,that Democrats are destroying the country,that Obama is a marxist/communist/Muslim….then tell me they have no culpability in this killing.

  • http://PersonalLibertyDigest Wiselady

    Wiselady says
    1-11-11

    Throw Hollywood in the fray, they make too many movies where killings bring recreation to young minds and to the mentally disturbred: Their liberal idiology denounces patriotic themes, pride in our country and mobilzation of pragmatic thought towards defending our freedoms.

    Along comes a Sheriff declaring the cause and effect theory without facts, and conducts himself god of the left, “tyrannical” side with his dietribe and not ever putting much blame on Jared Loughners past record. He, as Sheriff, failed to protect the victims by not enforcing an Arizona law that allows for a very disturbed person to be encarcerated for at least 72 hours for observation. Instead, he has to blame the “tyranny” from the right. Many opportunites with, “red flags” were available for him to take the appropriate action when Jared was arrested several times; ironically red is the color of the Communist’s flag. Where did he fit in with the episodes that took place in Jared’s schools, especially if there was strong evidence of some form of danger to himself and/or others? This should all be investigated and I say the Sheriff of Pima county needs to answer some questions. He failed to do his job, and if the citizens believe he is O.K., as their sherrif,….folks, we have a whole county with some strange education going on in the schools. Hollywood will probably come in and make a movie out of this very, very grotesque tragedy because he blames it on the right. God forbid.

    Olbermann and, etal need to zip it and those individuals, who courageously inform us of what and how America is changing shall have to be more cautious with words they use (there goes our freedom). Yes, democrats can say anthing they want, including our President, and it conveniently goes ignored when they make and use improper words to make their point,i.e., “target, “bring guns”, “get Hannity”,. The list is endless. The lunacy in politics has spread too rapidly without any self constraint, repect, or compassion. It is all about power as evidenced the Sherrif’s behavior and there is where I put the blame. He needs to resign. Will Eric Holder do an investigation of Sherrif Dupnick’s performence of his duties and responsibilities? I doubt it since he is in cahoots with him on the issue of the illegals whom he won’t arrest.

  • http://gunner689 gunner689

    As usual the media keeps stirring the pot by constantly focusing on this tragedy. We all pray that this good woman pulls through and this type of thing doesn’t happen again. It does no good to point fingers at each other as to who is to blame. unfortunately we are in a struggle for the soul and survival of America and these people are some of the caualties. The event was caused by an apolitical lunatic who should have been institutionalised. The worst crime will be if this event is used by gvt. as an excuse to curtail more freedoms. We are a country divided by ideals, as the writers on this site indicate. As long as this wide gap of philosophies exists, left vs. right, there will be no peace, other than that which God will bring to earth. Both sides are steadfast in their views and nothing will convince them to change. My personal views come from a love of my country, an ingrained sense of patriotism, and an overwhelming desire to keep America free for my grandchildren. I consider the Left an enemy to those ideals. I will go to my grave fighting for those principals.

    • Denniso

      There you go, calling the left the ‘enemy’…why can’t you people use any words other than those charged w/ violence? Poor vocabulary? My own personal theory is that the right is mostly people who love violence…war,cage fighting,violence in sport. You could have said exactly what you just did and used a better and less inflamatory word than ‘enemy’. To a deluded person,that means they can be dealt w/ like you would an actual enemy. Violence,death. How about using opponent,opposed to,contrary to…

      You’re right that there will never be real peace between people like you and me,because I very much dislike people who promote or accept war and violence,bigotry and injustice,but that doesn’t mean we have to hate each other or talk like we want to ‘eliminate’ one another.

      • http://gunner689 gunner689

        Unfortunately there is no other way. your goals are the opposite of mine and there is no common ground.

        • Denniso

          You are very symbolic of what many people thing is wrong w/ the right wing. Hopelessly stuck in a frame of mind w/ no ability to budge or compromise,or even just get along. And the right is outraged that they are being accused of fomenting violence…listen to yourself.

  • Steve

    The guy is an ATHIEST, POT SMOKING HOMOSEXUAL so what do you expect!

    Oh, wait a minute…… I think the liberals in this country want to get rid of God, legalize pot and support gay marriage. Just great! Doesn’t this put things in perspective???

  • .50BMG

    I agree there is much violent rhetoric from all, but to make such things an “unmentionable” topic is irresponsible. I’m not speaking of direct threats here, the laws already on the books are clear about that. I, for one, haven’t forgotten the past and how this country came about. Human nature has not changed, and anyone who thinks just “laying down your arms” and being nice so we don’t offend anyone will make anything better is not living in reality. No one can live without offending someone, ain’t gonna happen. I refuse to give away all this country and constitution stands for just so a minority of very vocal people (a lot of whom don’t belong here in the first place) aren’t offended. If my refusal to “give it all away” is met with governmental force, then guess what happens. REALITY.

    Leave if you don’t like the constitution, don’t pervert it for the rest of us. The “liberal” way of thinking is the same as in socialist countries, they will love you there (and they have such a good life- that’s why they are here instead!)

    I am a proud gun owner (and licensed, before the freaking out begins because I don’t wear a badge- but you never know, it might be you or your child whose life I save), and I support the constitution AS WRITTEN AND INTERPRETED BY THE FOUNDERS- THE PRECEDENT IS ALL THERE AND NOT DIFFICULT TO UNDERSTAND. The constitution is not written in legalese, it was written with what was about a 7th grade education level back then (high school grad now). The only people who don’t get it are either bleeding hearts, thieves, in outer space, or all of the above.

    I would also point out that most libs would consider people like me “far right”, but we’re really in the middle. NO GOVERNMENT AT ALL is the far right, total dictatorship and forced wealth redistribution (by one or a few) is the left. That places adherents to the constitution (as written and intended by the Founders) IN THE MIDDLE, not the far right. TRUE PERSPECTIVE, folks.

  • http://marcum@wildblue.net coal miner

    We are not democracy

    Athenian democracy an imperfect system that led to mob rule, says classics prof
    bu.edu/bridge ^ | 4 February 2005 | Brian Fitzgerald

    Posted on Monday, February 28, 2005 1:59:26 PM by Destro

    Athenian democracy an imperfect system that led to mob rule, says classics prof

    By Brian Fitzgerald

    The word democracy comes from the Greek demokratia, a combination of demos, meaning people, and kratos, meaning power.

    Democracy: power of the people. It’s the ideal form of government, isn’t it? Loren J. Samons says no — not the way it was practiced by Athens in the fifth and fourth centuries B.C. Athenian democracy was remarkably direct, rather than being representative, he says, and America’s founding fathers regarded this form of government as “unstable and dangerous.”

    Most Americans generally believe that we live in a democracy, but the United States government was designed instead as a representative republic, in part “to shield elected leaders from the sometimes volatile public will,” writes Samons, a CAS associate classics professor and associate dean, in his recently published book What’s Wrong with Democracy? From Athenian Practice to American Worship ( University of California Press, 2004).

    Samons says that over the course of the past 200 years, Americans have increasingly — and erroneously — applied the words democracy and democratic to our form of government, “in which a people express their sovereign power through elected representatives, under a Constitution that ensures individual rights.”

    So, many citizens were in for a rude awakening during the protracted period following the 2000 presidential election, when candidate George W. Bush won the number of Electoral College votes necessary for victory, but had a minority of the popular vote. People were astonished to realize that we don’t live in a “true” democracy. There were calls for election reforms and the abolishment of the Electoral College.

    But the Electoral College is still in place, and that’s the way the creators of the American regime intended it. They didn’t trust the masses. They certainly didn’t want to emulate the voting system in ancient Athens, where a citizen assembly made policy decisions. “There were 30,000 to 40,000 citizens eligible to vote,” Samons says, “but no more than about 6,000 would meet in an assembly. Measures were put before them, and they voted by literally holding up their hands.” As for public officials, a council of 500 was chosen by lot to serve administrative purposes and put measures before the assembly, but final decisions rested with the assemblymen themselves. “Policy questions such as, ‘Should we go to war with Sparta?’ were put before the people — that’s how decisions were made,” he says.

    In 431 B.C. the Athenian general Pericles persuaded the assembly to provoke war with Sparta, leading to Athens’ defeat in the Peloponnesian War.

    “The great irony to me is that in the last 15 to 20 years, some modern historians of ancient history have begun to look to Athens as a model for the theory and practice of modern politics,” says Samons. “A lot of their works paint an overly optimistic picture of Athenian democracy. To me, if we’re going to use Athens to study America, the first question we ought to ask is, ‘Did Athens succeed?’ One thing we know about Athenian democracy is that it didn’t last. During the nearly two centuries of Athenian democracy Athens suffered oligarchical revolutions twice.”

    Samons points out the Athenians also waged rash imperialistic wars. “They lost virtually every war they fought against major Greek powers,” he says. “They were pretty good at bullying little Greek states, and they were successful against the Persians, but not against Sparta or Syracuse. Before we begin to look to Athens to better understand — or even alter — our own government, we should look at how well Athens succeeded.” Indeed, at the conclusion of the Peloponnesian War, in 404 B.C., the Athenian empire was not only humbled, but also overthrown. He notes that Athens foolishly refused to make peace early in the war, even when offered favorable terms by Sparta.

    Samons says there is much to admire about Athens: its literature, art, architecture, and philosophers; but its experiments with democracy led to many mistakes and failures. After all, an Athenian jury of 500 citizens even voted to execute the great philosopher Socrates.

    Despite the publicity the Electoral College received in 2000, Samons says, many Americans still believe that our country is a democracy and look to Athenian democracy as something we should strive for.

    “I think we talk about our regime now as if it’s a democracy,” he says. “You hear politicians, for example, trying to align themselves with ‘what the American people want.’ This inspires a view that this is the best thing for the country — majority rule. After the 2000 election, I heard more than one politician talk about ‘the will of the majority’ instead of discussing why the Electoral College exists, and what the reasons are for a distance between the immediate will of the people and political action in the American system.”

    Samons, who has written or edited three other books on ancient Athens, including one on Athenian democracy, says that he wrote What’s Wrong with Democracy “to get people to recognize and accept nondemocratic aspects of our regime.” He also wants readers to realize that we shouldn’t rely on our political system to improve society. “Many Americans tend to think that there is a political solution to every social problem,” he says. “This reflects a misplaced faith in the political process — a faith sometimes spawned by the modern idealization of democracy.”

    America’s founders weren’t as foolhardy, according to Samons. “They clearly recognized the dangers of having a mass of citizens make policy decisions on the spot,” he says. “They were familiar with classical Athens, and the ancients proved that majority rule can devolve into mob rule.”

    • Denniso

      I just heard the ex girlfriend of the Tucson shooter/killer interviewed. She said very clearly that Loughner hated the gov’t and thought it was ‘crap’. He was certainly screwed up mentally and politically,but he hated the gov’t. Did all the yrs of hate directed toward the gov’t have the power to influence an unbalanced mind? One would have to be in total denial to say he couldn’t be influenced by it.

      • libertytrain

        was that the same ex girlfriend that said he had become this way because the moment she broke-up with him he immediately changed into this person that we see now – she saw it in his face that very moment she said it was over. Or was that a different girlfriend – apparently there was more than one so we should get the lowdown from each of them -

  • Azcharlie

    What everyone seems to forget is, we are responsibile for our own actions. Mr. Loughner was the shooter. Not anyone else.

    • denniso

      If a 12 yr old kid commits a horrendous act,most people wonder about his parents and how he was raised…if a kid drops out of scool most people think the parents didn’t do a good job or the school failed him. Mentally ill people are much like kids,not very good judgement and needing support or care from parents and society. This killer didn’t commit this atrocity in a vacuum…parents,friends,school,society,all had a role to play in leading up to it. He’s unbalanced at the least and his unstable mind didn’t just pop into existence,out of the blue. There are millions of mentally ill people who never kill like this,so why did he?

      People in high places want to deny any culpability for their incendiary and violent language because they want to be able to continue it,and don’t want to feel any personal blame…getting millions of people to have a blanket hate for the gov’t results in political or monetary gain for some, and that’s what they don’t want to give up.

  • Earl

    Jared Loughner’s motivations may never be fully revealed. He will surely be evaluated by the blue chips of the blue chips in the psychiatric and psychological community and, unless he elects to co-operate, we might never achieve that insight.

    I couldn’t care less what motivated his actions. Whatever they might be or might have been, there are six dead and a bunch more injured.

    In most localities, motive is not a necessary element of the case against an accused party although it might better explain why a particular person was targeted.

    So, why don’t we put all this sometimes vitriolic speculation to rest and wait for his shrinks’ inputs. If he’s deemed competent, a competent court MIGHT get to the bottom of it.

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