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Town Hall: Senator Tom Coburn schools a “public option” supporter

September 8, 2009 by  

Bob Livingston

is an ultra-conservative American and author of The Bob Livingston Letter™, founded in 1969. Bob has devoted much of his life to research and the quest for truth on a variety of subjects. Bob specializes in health issues such as nutritional supplements and alternatives to drugs, as well as issues of privacy (both personal and financial), asset protection and the preservation of freedom.

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  • clyde burns

    I would not believe anything Coburn or his ilk says.

    • Randy Coon

      AMEN!!!

    • spike

      Then you’re a moron, because what he said makes sense. I don’t know this guy from Adam, but I’ll tell you what. The single biggest telling point comes from this statement: “Where do you find the authority in the U.S. Constitution for the Federal Government to handle healthcare”
      and “we have abandoned personal responsibility and accountability”…
      WE, THE PEOPLE, HAVE THE RESPONSIBILITY TO TAKE CARE OF THE HEALTHCARE SITUATION, AND THE STATES, ACCORDING TO OUR CONSTITUTION SHOULD BE “TAKING CARE” OF ANY AND ALL HEALTHCARE REFORM, NOT THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT. THANK YOU, VERY MUCH.

  • Irene

    Personal responsibility is just as Coburn says. Look at history; at the government programs now in effect with no funds. If you do not believe Coburn just talk to anyone who lives in Canada, UK, etc. Australia has a great immigration policy – take a look at it!
    Go Coburn!

    • hopeforamerica

      The Woman is Right! Healthcare is rationed now by Insurance companies!! Coburn is more interested in lining his pockets with insurance industry contributions than caring for hard working people!!

      What Coburn Fails to address is that RESPONSIBLE Americans Can’t afford or control Rising Insurance premiums, increasing co-pays and deductables, or getting a serious life threatening illness. When 60% of all Bankruptcys in America are due to Medical Bills. People shouldn’t have to lose their homes became they ill! And What about our Moral and Humane responsibilites… or does the bible get thrown out the door when it comes to money and profits?! Furthermore, Canada and many other countries have a great single payer system. People pay higher taxes, but every citizen is covered no matter what!
      Did anybody see the Director of Canada’s Healthcare on C-Span the other day? He said no system is perfect, but they can’t imagine having a system like the U.S.. In fact, Canadian callers into C-span Raved about their health care and that they would could get a doctor’s appt same day or next day.. surgeries relatively quick too.
      No caps on health care benefits and the Coburn lied when he said Canada’s single payer rations care. Furthermore, Canada and many other countries invest heavily into new drugs and procedures.

      • http://TownHallMeeting Mary Cook

        I disagree with your reply. “Jesus said love your brother, but you can not love your federal government”. This health care reform will cost us more $ than private insurace, take it out of your bank account, the IRS will provide your doctor with how much you make, and your care will depend upon how much $ you make. So if your poor your care will not be good. The Health Care Official in Canada, what did you expect him to say. I do not believe anything the Gov is trying to sell us. Did you ever think of if there are 47 million people uninsured why is he not having it go into effect until 2013. What are these people going to do in the meantime? DIE!!! This is a political reason. He and his Czars are trying to bring down this country and make it into a DICTATORSHIP. I do not put my hope,faith & trust in government. They do not want what is best for me or you, they want what is best for this administration. They only want to exceed in owning us. Look at the people Obama spent his life with. As a child schooling in Indonesia. He put his own grandma under the bus as she was white. His mother was white, you do not hear him speak of her, just his father who was not involved in his life. He was listening to Jeremiah Wright for 20 years, he hates white people. He spent his life with Bill Ayers. So now do you think he cares about you. He is trying to borrow another trillion dollars from China. China does not think much of Obama’s spending spree, thinks it is unwise. But if he is stupid enough to borrow they will loan. Then they will own us. This country is not a country of freedom. I love this country and I am a patriot. I will defend it for liberty and freedom. Obama is selling us out. A lot of you AIRHEADS can not see the big picture. You keep saying this can not happen this is the USA
        Exactly what he wants you to think. Act like an ostrich and stick you head in the sand. It is not democrat or republican it is our future and out childrens future. I hate it and pray that God will put these people out and help the innocents. Did you ever see the picture where Jesus is welcoming the just and good people who lived a good life and on the other side are those that are begging to be let into the pearly gates, but they mislead the people and those that followed the ones that lied to them are out with them. That will be most of you as Obama is not a Christian, he does not love our God or he would be looking out for Americans. He had a special dinner for the Muslims at the Whitehouse for their holy week, but neglected the Wide World Day of Prayer. The Muslims did not honor our holy week. So I feel that he is not a President for the citizens of the USA. My opinion and I used to be a democrat. Not any longer, Obama runined it for me.

        • Randy Coon

          To my Dear Mary Cook, a response,

          I disagree with your reply. “Jesus said love your brother, but you can not love your federal government…SO I ASSUME HE SAID SUPPORT FREE ENTERPRISE SYSTEM, TO THE DETRIMENT OF THE POOR, THUS : “INSURANCE COMPANIES.”

          This health care reform will cost us more $ than private insurance, take it out of your bank account, the IRS will provide your doctor with how much you make, and your care will depend upon how much $ you make. So if your poor your care will not be good…
          And your facts come from where?….

          I do not believe anything the Gov is trying to sell us. I assume that includes Medicare, VA, and Social Security. And I guess this means YOU ARE WILLING TO BUY WHAT THE INSURANCE AND PHARMACEUTICAL COMPANIES ARE SELLING US?

          He put his own grandma under the bus as she was white. He has repeatedly told us that she was the primary influence in his life. He left the campaign trail to go to Hawaii to see her before she died. And he did not “pull the plug on her while he was there.” She died on her own BEFORE the election where Obama won by more than 50% of pop.vote.

          China does not think much of Obama’s spending spree, thinks it is unwise.
          Maybe you could change your citizenship to a smarter country…like China.

          Obama is not a Christian. And you are a Hindu? I’ll bet I have as much information to say that as you do to say that Obama is a Muslim. Only God and the person in the question know the truth.

          I used to be a democrat. Not any longer…Now THERE is your problem.

          JESUS WAS LIBERAL HIMSELF. “the liberality of your contribution in relation to them,” &c … consider Jesus, the Apostle and High Priest of our confession; … 2C iiC 2Cor ii cor iicor) and numerous other verses. You really should be careful in demonizing people as being “LIBERALS.”

          Unfortunately, I think you have your priorities in life backwards, and because you are so concerned that you will lose what you have now, and that helping others might affect you.
          REMEMBER THAT CHANGE IS COMING ANYWAY. WITHOUT INSURANCE AND HEALTH CARE REFORM, WE WILL BE BANKRUPT AS A COUNTRY, IN REALITY AND YET YOU THINK YOU HAVE THAT GUARANTEE OF KEEPING WHAT YOU HAVE FOREVER. STOP AND THINK. IF YOU GET INSURANCE THROUGH YOUR EMPLOYER, HOW MUCH SAY- SO DO YOU HAVE IN WHAT IT PROVIDES TO YOU NOW? AND THE COST OF INSURANCE? EARLIER THIS YEAR MY TWIN DAUGHTERS’ HEALTH INSURANCE [BLUE CROSS], JUMPED FROM ABOUT $250 TO $300/MONTH, THEN TODAY IT JUMPED TO $451.00/MONTH. WHY? THEY HAVE NEVER BEEN SERIOUSLY ILL, AND ALMOST NOT ILL AT ALL. THE ONLY MEDS THEY GET ARE BIRTH CONTROL PILLS, WHICH ARE NOT COVERED. WHY DOES IT GO UP SO MUCH?

          ARE YOU STILL SURE THAT WHEN INSURANCE COMPANIES ARE TOLD TO TAKE PEOPLE WITH PRE-EXISTING CONDTIONS, GUARANTEED RENEWABLE AND PORTABLE,…..ARE YOU REALLY STILL SURE THAT, GIVEN THAT, COMPETITION IN THE FREE MARKET WILL MAKE THE COST OF INSURANCE GO DOWN SIGNIFICANTLY??? I DON’T THINK SO!!!

          PLEASE REREAD YOUR LETTER, THOUGHTFULLY AND OPEN MINDED, AND LISTEN TO THE INSURANCE COMPANY ADS WITH CYNICYSM .

          I REALLY HOPE THAT YOU AND OTHERS FOLLOWING THE REPUBLICAN LEADERSHIP, WILL REALIZE AT LAST THAT WE MUST DO SOMETHING, AND IF THE PRIVATE INSURANCE COMPANIES DON’T COMPETE AND LOWER THE PRICES, THAT WE WILL HAVE A CONGRESSIONAL, PUBLIC CIVIL SERVICE PLAN TO MOVE TO.

          Best of luck and Health to you,

          Randy

          • Vicki551

            If the government run plans that are being proffered in the House and Senate are so great and wonderful, how come the Congressmen and Senators are not willing to include themselves and their union supporters in them from the getgo? They do NOT have ‘government’ insurance like they are trying to push off on us. They choose their plans from private companies and we get to pay for them with our tax dollars.
            If insurance companies were not prohibited by the state governments from offering their policies to everyone across the country, just as car or life insurance is, there would be more than enough ‘competition’ for your business. There are at least 1300 companies which offer thousands of levels of coverage in the U S but you are locked out of choosing the one that would fit your needs by STATE MANDATES. Many states only have one or two choices chosen for you by your own state legislators by what the lobbyists paid them in kickbacks and contributions to their campaigns. You are denied ‘choice’ by your own elected (non)representatives not by the insurance companies.
            I am not, nor have I ever been an employee of an insurance company. I am a retired federal employee and have had my insurance coverage with the same company since 1989. When I was employed, my employer paid 75% and I paid 25% of the premium. Now that I’m retired, I have to pay the 75% and they only pay the 25%. My premium is a little over $300 a month (just went up $20 in Jan.) and I pay $20 copay when I see a doctor. I can choose from ten or more plans and levels of service from minimal to premier. I have chosen the lower ‘standard’ option not the premier. My insurance company has NEVER denied coverage for ANY condition, surgery or doctor visit that I have had in all those years subject to the benefits as outlined in the plan when I chose it. I believe what our federal government officials get to choose from is very similar except that we, the taxpayers, have to pick up the whole tab and they get to choose from at least 30 companies.
            I noticed that the President downgraded the number of un-insured in his speech last Wednesday to only 30 million from the 47 million they’ve been repeating over and over, ad nauseum, all summer. (Check out the transcript of the speech yourself if you doubt it.) With the rise in unemployment since the beginning of the year, you would think that the number of un-insured would have gone up by a couple of million at least instead of down. Could it be that they’ve finally quit including the 13 to 20 million illegals that were being counted in the total all along? He was able to honestly say that illegals won’t be covered by whatever bill passes because he knows that any bill they pass doesn’t take effect until 2013 and they will have given all the illegals amnesty by then. Voila! No illegals covered by the health care reform bill because there won’t be any illegals left!
            A true health care reform bill could be written in fewer than ten pages, not the over 1000 page monstrosity that HR3200 is. All they would have to say is: ALL CITIZENS OF THE UNITED STATES ARE ENTITLED TO APPLY FOR, AND PURCHASE, THE EXACT SAME HEALTH CARE CHOICES THAT THE UNITED STATES CONGRESS AND SENATE HAVE NOW. ANYONE WHO CANNOT AFFORD THE PREMIUMS CAN APPLY FOR ASSISTANCE THROUGH THE MEDICAID PROGRAM THAT IS ALREADY IN PLACE. There would be nothing in that plan about the government having the right to have access to everyone’s medical records, access to everyone’s private bank accounts, cross referencing everyone’s IRS tax returns or establishing 53 to 57 more federal bureaucracies to oversee, implement and regulate all of the provisions that are specifically listed in the proposed House bill HR3200. (Every one of those provisions I just listed are specifically written in HR3200. Look them up yourself.)
            I didn’t even need ten pages, or even one page, to have a comprehensive health care plan that would cover every citizen of this country that wishes to be covered. I didn’t set up any boards or committees to oversee anyone’s personal health or lifestyle choices. I didn’t put in any convoluted language like “this paragraph supercedes paragraph G, subset VII of previous statute such and such from October, 1995″ as there is in numerous places throughout HR3200. John Conyers was absolutely right when he said there was no point in actually reading HR3200 as it was completely incomprehensible to someone of his level of intelligence (or almost anybody else for that matter) and he’d need two lawyers to try to explain it to him. (And, he’s a lawyer himself!)
            The ONLY point of enacting the currently proposed health care / insurance reform programs that are being pushed by the government is TOTAL CONTROL over the citizens of this country. They are systematically dismantling, or taking control of, every segment of the private sector. This is “just one more brick in the wall” to quote the song from Pink Floyd. They have known for many years that Medicare, Medicaid and Social Security will be bankrupt by 2030 or so and not one of our elected leaders or representatives have been willing to do a thing to stop it. The collapse is coming faster than a speeding freight train and they’re desperate to find a way to cover their a**es. If they can get this government option passed before it happens, they will get a flood of money in to the system from the new taxes and new patients to dodge the bullet for a little while longer. They’re counting on the fact that they, themselves, will no longer be in office when the sh*t hits the fan and won’t have to bear the consequences of their inaction for all the years they were in office.
            NO PUBLIC OPTION! NO GOVERNMENT INTRUSION INTO OUR PRIVATE RELATIONSHIP WITH OUR DOCTORS!

          • seal5055

            Hey wake up, your having a nightmare.You think that the government even cares about you. What cave have you be living in. Even Obamas Czars have been talking about old people not getting the health care they need if there is a younger person that needs it more. It is called, who is more valuable to the country an old person that is not going to be around to much longer so why should we waste our money on them or give it to a younger more valuable person who still has a longer life to live. You need to look at the people that are advising Obama they are the ones trying to overthrow our government. They are the ones that want me to give my money to someone that is poorer than me. Wake up (WORD REMOVED FOR OFFENSIVE CONTENT) that is socialism. Its not republican and democrat, the progressives are trying to bury the Constitution. You need to hear what Glenn Beck is saying. Watch him for a week and you will see what I am talking about. Bush and Obama have the same agenda.

        • Pam in Michigan

          We all know we can’t afford it, and we all see that Dumbo at the White House is not listening

        • http://personalliberty.com CLWalker

          I agree Mary,good job!Well written!! All u airheads need to deal with,and become reeducated. Your previous education is not going to sustain you!

          • GrammiSami

            Mary I agree with you and Vicki551 really hit the nail on the head about Government funded health care. I too have been reading the bill and it is a bunch of “doublespeak”. What the Dems want is something so complicated that it can be interpreted anyway they want it. Vicki is right. A good healthcare plan can be written very simply. I believe doing something simply and clearly is called “KISS”. If it isn’t required for Congress and the President then it isn’t good enough for us. It is simply another vehicle for “Control of the Masses.”

      • Randy Coon

        Unlike Mary Cook,
        I think you have the proper issues of the discussion at point.

        NONE of us have a guarantee that our health insurance will be the same tomorrow as it is today. In fact , we know that it will NOT.

        Health Care is far too important to trust it the competition of the FreeEnterprise System. If that were going to work, it would have already. I pay for health insurance for my twin 18daughters. In the span of 2 years, it went form $250.00 to $451.00, as of today’s notice of increase. It’s really just a policy that gives them a little drug discount card, a $25.00 cop-pay for seeing doctors, and major medical of 80% limited to $1 Million.

        With or without medical health care reform, things will cahnge. I have read the house bill that is termed as “Obama’s Bill”, as well as 5 Republican Bills..

        Although the Republican bills are just suggestions, and not a complete reform, and not readily understandable to the average, or even accomplished reader. [I am an attorney]

        In addition to the outright lies, or misundertandings because of their lack of reading the most popular Democratic House bill, so far, their MAIN COMPLAINTS ARE:

        That there should be no payments from the government to persons illegaly in this country. I do not understand why they cannot see the specific clause prohibiting this. AND SECOND: That there should be tort reform, which Obama addressed in the message to the entire Congress, he firmly that abortions would not be paid for.

        Good letter. We must spread the truth BEFORE it is too late. Thanks,R

        • Carl

          Randy: You ask where Mary gets her info….sounds to me like she’s read the bill! Many things are left wide open for future “interpretation” as they see fit. Abortions WILL be funded. And all medical professionals will be forced to perform them, regardless of their personal beliefs, and that’s just plain wrong.

          He says no illegals will receive benefits: but do you know that he’s got a bill that will give blanket immunity to all illegals now in our country. Thus, tens of millions will become citizens within 48 hours of passing, and therefore they WILL be eligible for “free” health care. A little fact he “forgot” to mention when he made his speech.

          And one fact I believe everyone knows: Medicare has gone WAY over budget and is going broke. They’ve raided our Social Security accounts, and that is about broke. (yes, I said accounts. when the govt sold us this program, we were told our money would be sitting in an account waiting for us to claim it for retirement. OOPS!) The Post Office’s budget FAR exceeds UPS and Fed Ex, yet they’re the only one that is operating in the RED. Obama stated that he can cut approx. $50 billion from Medicare by eliminating waste and fraud!!! Did you hear him say that? Why the hell is there $50B in waste and fraud in the first place? Do you honestly believe that they will do a better job this time around? PLEASE Randy, think about this. Maybe if we get rid of govt waste and fraud and distribute that tax money back to the taxpayer, we could take care of ALOT of stuff on our own. Americans are generous and compassionate people. If the govt would just get out of our way, we could take care of each other on a local, more personal basis. Please think about these things Randy. Don’t turn your freedom and your life over this, or any, administration. It’s about control.

      • Gerald

        YOU ARE SO RIGHT-THAT IS WHY THEY COME TO THE U.S.FOR MEDICAL TREATMENT FROM ALL OVER THE WORLD!THERE SHOULD BE A PROGRAM THAT ALLOWS YOU AND OTHERS LIKE YOU TO GET YOUR HEALTH CARE IN CANADA. AS FAR AS I AM CONCERNED THE PEOPLE THAT WANT OBAMACARE SHOULD GET IT,BUT HAVE TO GO TO CANADA OR MEXICO FOR MEDICAL AND THE U.S. CAN PAY THOSE COUNTRIES (AT THEIR RATE).jUST AS CANADIANS COME HERE AND THEIR GOVERNMENT PAYS THE BILL AT THE U.S.RATE!

      • spike

        THE FACT, FACT, FACT!!! is that Social Security and Medicare are BANKRUPT!!! DO YOU CARE ABOUT THAT??? DO YOU SEE IT??? Every State–EVERY SINGLE STATE in this UNION has the authority to oversee and Insist that every Insurance company has an affordable “public” option that people can “afford”–let’s put it this way, we can’t afford it, even when we CAN afford it, because we’re too busy driving leased SUV’s and Big Pick up trucks…and adding square footage to our houses.
        We don’t seem to understand in this country, that the BUCK STOPS WITH US. I don’t DO NOT HAVE healthcare right now, but I’ll tell you what, I’m not NOT NOT going to be forced by Barack Obama to pay for healthcare for you, or Illegal immigrants, or MYSELF and get fined 2500 if I don’t!!!!! Got it, you hand out grabbing(offensive word removed)???

    • Randy Coon

      AMEN. My experiences exactly. We must spread the TRUTH before the LIES all defeat the bill.

      Thanks, my Lady

    • RevKoziol

      NONE OF THE 28 industrialized countries have rationed health care. And yes I have talked with people who came here like my neighbors who say that there is no health care in America! We do not have health care in this country unless you are rich enough to afford it!
      Where is any reference to health-care being a right? Check the preamble of the Constitution. We have a right to health and happiness!!!!

      I am one of the uninsured. I had Kaiser but could no longer afford the 8880.00 per year for an illness that supposedly was unimportant; I wasn’t sick enough is what my doctor said. Yet the price climbed because of all the testing I received every 30-60 days. I dropped them in 2005, getting as many refills on my meds. as I was ‘allowed’. Often I believe that I just don’t count and that the illness I have which is causing other illness, is not as important as cancer or the other kinds of catastrophic diseases people end up with not because of lifestyle, but because the “health care” professionals dropped the ball; like they did on my dad, my fiancé, and my friends. I lost, on average two people a year over the last 13 years, to maladies due to their “health-care” and now I wonder about my friend in Chicago who was given medicine to help her RA that caused complications and lymphoma. Two personal friends died because of septicemia and complications from dialysis. This is the best health care system in the world?

      I keep fighting the wing-nuts and our pathetic blue dogs – what a ridiculous name – and wonder if anyone is listening. I’m not asking for free care, but maybe that’s what this country needs to do. Let the market take care of the upper-crust and expand Medicare for the rest of us, including Congress!!! We can all pay into the system and it would function in a way that holds no monetary dividends for any shareholders EXCEPT to help them have access to health services.

      The Republicans reference The “Lewin Group” but as per usual they site information in a convoluted manner, changing truth to fit their agendas. The following is what I found and it would be helpful to all of us if large groups, such as yours, could maintain a true measure of the public’s’ wants – like the expansion of Medicare. If we all fight for it and not change the game plan we might actually GET somewhere in the Change We Need!

      I support a single-payer plan as proposed through: Colorado Health Services Single Payer Program Comprehensive Coverage and Cost Savings of Single Payer Insurance*

      Over 20 federal and state studies since 1991 have demonstrated that Single Payer – public payer, private provider health care – is capable of large costs savings, while providing comprehensive health care for all, and full choice of doctors and other health care providers, and hospitals.

      The Colorado Health Services Single Payer Proposal: The only one of five state proposals evaluated by the Lewin Group in 2007 that demonstrated the ability to cut net state health costs – by $1.4 billion — and to provide comprehensive health coverage for all residents of Colorado. Savings include $2.8 billion reduced administrative costs and $2.6 billion reduced out-of-pocket expenses.

      Cost savings to businesses
      $2.34 billion

      Freed from the cost of managing employee health care plans, businesses can compete on equal footing in the global marketplace, without erosion of profits.
      Employees have higher effective take-home wages when employers no longer pass on rising health care costs.
      Consumers save added costs of goods and services due to business passing on costs of health plans (e.g., $1500 added to the cost of each U.S.-made car).
      Cost savings to Colorado families
      $187 million

      Families pay less for a progressive sliding-scale premium than current costs of premiums, copays and deductibles for commercial health insurance.
      Cost savings to providers (26%)
      $669 million

      The plan eliminates provider costs of extra staff to handle paperwork of multiple private insurers – billing, preauthorization and credentialing requirements, and changing drug formularies.
      Eliminates insurance middlemen in ‘Denial Management’ whose sole purpose is to deny or renege on claims, adding $20 billion cost annually. Currently 30% of claims are initially denied, requiring repeat appeals.(The Wall Street Journal 2-14-07)
      Cost savings to hospitals (9.8%)
      $322 million

      Hospitals will no longer experience unpaid medical bills due to high numbers of under- and uninsured, costs passed on to consumers and taxpayers, who already pay for over 60% of all health costs.
      Savings for Prescription Drugs and Durable Medical Goods
      $322 million

      Only the CHS proposal permits bulk purchase of pharmaceuticals and durable medical goods.
      Colorado Total Net Savings
      $1.4 billion

      *Projected Changes in Statewide Spending 2007/2008, Colorado Health Services Single Payer Program, Technical Assessment of Health Care Reform Proposals, The Lewin Group, 8-20-07 pp. 95-115I support a single-payer plan as proposed through Colorado Health Services Single Payer Program Comprehensive Coverage and Cost Savings of Single Payer Insurance*

      I BELIEVE THAT THE REPUBLICANS ARE CAUSING FEAR AND DISTORTION WITH THEIR MISREPRESENTATIONS OF THE FACTS AND IT IS THEY WHO BRING THIS COUNTRY TO ITS WORST DENOMINATOR! SHAME ON YOU! YOU PEOPLE LIE!!!

  • Richard Gessford

    The man is Right, keep what we have;

  • s c

    I don’t know much about this man. The health care reform debate must take more time before any program can be ‘re-offered’ to the people. So far, comrade obama has put forth nothing but a poison pill with an artificial sweetener taste.
    I’d feel better about his ‘compassion’ if I knew his wealth would be devastated the same way ours will be if he and his czars, stooges and camp-followers get their plan into effect. I doubt very much if comrade obama would be willing to live a third-world lifestyle, and somehow manage to ‘care’ for anyone outside his immediate family.
    He simply doesn’t pack the gear. He is not a leader, and when it comes to ‘hitting the ground running,’ all he did was to get a first-rate case of road rash. He needs to move to Cuba – and take all his friends with him.

    • Average Joe

      It is sad when living in Cuba actually sounds like a better alternative to the mindset of our government and people. At least in Cuba they have not been dumbed down enough to believe that they don’t live in a communist/ socialist country…they actually KNOW.
      Tom Coburn is right on the money. Read your Constitution people…there is no authority for the national government to do any of those things mentioned.

      A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves money from the public treasure. From that moment on the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most money from the public treasury, with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy followed by a dictatorship.
      The average age of the world’s great civilizations has been two hundred years. These nations have progressed through the following sequence: from bondage to spiritual faith, from spiritual faith to great courage, from courage to liberty, from liberty to abundance, from abundance to selfishness, from selfishness to complacency from complacency to apathy, from apathy to dependency, from dependency back to bondage.
      Alexander Tytler (1747–1813)
      (On the fall of Athenian republic)

      Our safety, our liberty, depends upon preserving the Constitution of the United States as our fathers made it, inviolable. The people of the United States are the rightful masters of both Congress and the courts, not to overthrow the Constitution, but to overthrow the men who pervert the Constitution.
      Abraham Lincoln (1809–1865)

      Good intentions will always be pleaded for every assumption of authority. It is hardly too strong to say that the Constitution was made to guard the people against the dangers of good intentions. There are men in all ages who mean to govern well, but they mean to govern. They promise to be good masters, but they mean to be masters.
      Noah Webster (1758–1843)

      • michael howell

        So profound !, Our founders had experienced monarchy dictatorship and they ALL knew the reason for a republic tobe established !

      • bbstacker

        If this “debate” were about car insurance, and these lovers of the tyrannical government were getting screwed to insure those who won’t or can’t insure an automobile–whether they need a car or not, I bet they’d “GET IT” real quick. Do these folks who believe that the *feral* government can do anything with any semblance of efficiency or integrity? Nothing that the government does is without taking from the Citizens to give to another. Case in point: the illegal “cash for clunkers” where the government gives a rebate to a few who are stupid enough to think that it’s FREE! You can’t write fiction this ludicrous. The churches in America give more to charity than the next three largest nations do through their governments! Get the government out of our lives and let us live them as WE THE PEOPLE see fit. We collectively do what’s right, but I’ll be damned if I’ll contribute to good causes when I’m forced through taxation to give to criminal outfits like “acorn”…there’s got to be something left for me, I cannot and will not sacrifice myself into poverty to get that feel-good sensation while a tyrannical government destroys the Constitution, the Bill of Rights and our Liberty and Freedom. YMMV

  • bill

    I thank the lady for asking a question in a civil manner. Compare her to the screaming nitwits who turned out at some of the other meetings on health care. She is right in pointing out that we have rationing of health care right now in the good old USA. Of course if you have big bucks there’s no rationing. The senator claims there is much more rationing going on in countries (like Canada) that have a single payer system. That is his opinion because no studies have been made to see if that is true. Personally I’m with Medicare and I have no complaints. Will it go broke in 7 years? Not if you raise the income that the Medicare tax can be taken out of.

    • http://Personallibertysdigest Donna

      I thought that we were not supposed to be paying income tax. I thought I would ask you because you seem to be a well informed person. I understood, incometax was instetuted to pay off WW1 debts and was not to be a pemanent collection. Also, I thought that Canada, UK, and Germany have been telling our Presedent that they are going bankruped with Gov. run healthcare. I asked someone who is on Medicare how it was working for them. They were all for the socialized medicine and didn’t realize they were already getting it. Once I made it clear the answer was OH!! I also read or heard that a man in UK need care and needed to wait 3 mo for a particular surgical proceedure, but died after a 2mo. wait.

  • hopeforamerica

    Coburn is a jerk. RESPONSIBLE & Hard Working people cannot control annual rising costs of insurance premium, co-pays and deductables. Nor coverage caps, or diminishing benefits.
    I can’t beleive the man was a medical doctor. He has about as much compassion as a Rock.

    Coburn was wrong about other Countries rationing care. I watched C-Span the other night and Canadians were calling raving about how wonderful their health care system is. Canada spend about half of what we spend on heath care and we don’t even cover all Americans.

    • seal5055

      lets face it you pay high premiums because in most states you don’t have a choice to go to another company.If you had other choices then you cancel and go to another company, if a company keeps there rates high they will lose customers and eventually they lower there rates or go out of business. They could run it like the car insurance industry. The healthier you are the lower you rates are. The only reason obama wants everyone on health care is it give all of his lawyer friends more of a client base, why won’t they consider tort reform. Lawyers are destroying our country. Most of the people that are for the public option are members of Unions or have been on government subsistence most of there lives, and can’t get off of it. If the congress and senate will go on the same health care system they want me to go on I am all for it. If they won’t then they must know that the whole thing is crap and I don’t want any part of it. If you use common sense you can see through all of the government bulls***.

  • A Nonsocialist Taxpayer

    Coburn is absolutely correct. I know nothing about his record nor do I care. In his comments he is spot on. NOWHERE in the Constitution or any other documents establishing or regulating our government does it authorize a ‘single payer’ health system. If there is to be a US in the future you folks who believe that taking my money out of my pocket to pay for your healthcare isnt’ stealing need to seriously evaluate your moral state. Our healthcare is rationed now??? Who says??? Why do Canadians come across the border to get procedures done that their system won’t or can do, but delay? Why do people in GB pull their own teeth and die of cancer without treatment by the latest anticancer drugs? Do you not have a personal responsibility to provide for yourself and your family? Of course not, personal responsibility doesn’t exist here anymore.

    • Tanya Peterson

      When you go the pharmacy and they tell you your insurance doesn’t cover a medication that is rationing. Or when you have insurance but have a $1000 deductable and then after you reach the $1000 they only pay 80% So if you have a $500,000 hospital stay, you are still stuck paying for $100,000. Some of you might have an extra $101,000 laying around, but most Americans don’t.
      As of right now no one is putting out a bill with single payer demanding you must be on a government plan. They will be lucky if they get a public option plan passed.
      Actually the Constitution does say to authorize healthcare.

      The Constitution of the United States
      Preamble
      We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

      Welfare
      welfare n. 1. health, happiness, or prosperity; well-being. [<ME wel faren, to fare well] Source: AHD
      promote the general Welfare

      This, and the next part of the Preamble, are the culmination of everything that came before it — the whole point of having tranquility, justice, and defense was to promote the general welfare — to allow every state and every citizen of those states to benefit from what the government could provide. The framers looked forward to the expansion of land holdings, industry, and investment, and they knew that a strong national government would be the beginning of that.

      So there you go. The Government is resposible for the welfare of the people. Ha!

      • Bob Sanders

        You are an idiot
        no wonder BO was elected

        • Tanya Peterson

          I copied and pasted the part of the Constitution into the above. It says what it says. They are NOT my words but the word of our founding fathers. Or are you calling them an idiot and not me?

          • Tanya Peterson

            For those that want to defend the constituion good for you. But I suggest you actually read it before you go off out of control.

            The Constitution of the United States
            Preamble Note
            We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

            http://www.usconstitution.net/const.html#Preamble

        • Billy Wells

          This is a typical response from someone who knows you are right but just can’t come up with anything to debate you with. Ha!

      • michael howell

        The government to provide ,directed by the people, for the people !!!!!

        • Tanya Peterson

          You forgot majority. The majority of the people. And right now the majority of the people want healthcare reform. It’s just a few right wing knukleheads that see this as being a major problem starting with those in Congress that get lots of bribe, I mean lobby money from insurance companies.

  • Josephus

    When trying to fix anything (if it can be fixed) is start with the simplest, systematically less intrusive interventions. When I cannot fix something myself I look to the most experienced AND successful professionals to either advice or service. The present plan put out by this administration is to gain as much control over the whole thing and then scuffle around re-arranging the furniture.

    In the past I have watch people without any idea of systems take apart and try to re-assemble car engines, stereos, home appliances and musical instruments. You can find their triumphs on the curb on trash day.

    This chief executive has never accomplished anything other than to be elected. It’s apparent by his audacity of writing an autobiographic book that has no apparent accomplishments other than organizing. He seems to have a underling bitterness towards America in general. He sounds more like a United Nations diplomat.

    Good job by Sen. Coburn for answering the woman’s question/(statement really) without be-littleling her “feelings”.

    • Tanya Peterson

      This adminastration gave the job to Congress. A group of people that are supposed to be smart and know the law and know to create a law that is within the Constitution. The administration has not written anything yet. The Congress has been fighting and trying to put fear into the American people and it’s backed up by extremeist like Glenn Beck, Sean Hannity, and Rush Limbaugh, who only want to see America fail. Why, because they are making huge sums of money off of dimwits like all of you that submit to their fear tactics. Bush Cheney made you submit by using terrorism, These knuckleheads are making you submit to insurance companies by scaring you away from reform.

  • Sonny

    I was taught a long time ago, that if you keep your opinions to your self, then no one will know how stupid you are.

    Read the ” Constitution “!
    Do you want to lose all of the freedoms our brave soldiers have fought for and some lost their lives? I don’t!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    I have friends that have moved from Canada and they confirm everything that is being said about socialist medical service there.

    • Tanya Peterson

      Below, my friend is the Constitution. Maybe you should have listened and kept your opinion to yourself.

      The Constitution of the United States
      Preamble
      We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

      the whole point of having tranquility, justice, and defense was to promote the general welfare — to allow every state and every citizen of those states to benefit from what the government could provide.

      To allow every state and every citizen of those states to benefit from what the GOVERNMENT COULD PROVIDE!

      • http://Personallibertysdigest Donna

        So if the government provides everything, what is the need to work, get educated, and make any kinds of decisions for ouselves? We could sit back and ride the waves of thoughtless,ambiguity. What would we need to work for, to set any kinds of goals for, everything would be provided for us We’d have a roof over our head, somekind of food in our stomacks, ctlothes, food and medical care. What else is there?

        • Billy Wells

          Actually I like that idea.

        • Tonya Peterson

          The next time there is a pothole in the street I suggest you fix it yourself. Or if you a victim of crime, don’t call the police. If your house is on fire put it out yourself, (unless your fire company in all volunteer). When there is a natural disaster don’t expect the government to be there to help. You better not even think about taking the Amtrack train or using the US Postal service. If you are unemployed don’t even sign up for unemployment. You better find an old Studabaker car to drive too, you know before the government made them put safty features in like seatbelts. Tell your boss you’re able to work 12 hours and day 7 days a week and won’t except overtime pay for it. And 10 year old kid is willing to work just as much as you.
          When you think back of government regulations just which ones have made life worse for you? Name 5 things that the government has regulated that has been a hardship for you?

          • rudedude

            Some people do fix the potholes themselves. The police are not required to protect you from criminals therefore it is often best to defend yourself. For some people if you want to save your house you pretty much have to do it yourself. In case of natural disaster the best thing to do is NOT call the government. Amtrak and the Postal Service suck. I’d rather not use the Postal Service but I am required to by law, i.e. government. If you become unemployed you are entitled to unemployment since that is money the government took from you in the first place. Most safety features are created without regulation is what spurs safety regulation in the first place, to make everyone else use the nifty new safety feature that private enterprise invented. My boss and I can come to a private agreement between ourselves for my work hours and compensation without the government involvement thank you very much. What’s wrong with a 10-year-old kid having a job if he wants one?

            Five things the government regulates that create hardships:

            1. Fuel regulations and the taxes that go with them.
            2. Farmer subsidies that artificially elevate food/milk prices.
            3. Energy regulations (electricity) that allow monopolies, prevent expansion and increases costs to the consumer.
            4. Health insurance regulations that do not allow me to shop outside my state for coverage plus forcing me to cover treatments I do not require nor ever use.
            5. Communications regulations that stifles free speech, creates cable-company monopolies and increases costs to the consumer.

            But why just five? Any government regulation regardless of the purpose creates a hardship for someone. Only a selfish person would see a government regulation that benefits them not having the ability to create hardship for someone else.

          • Tanya Peterson

            1. Fuel regulations and the taxes that go with them.
            The taxes you pay on fuel go to infrastucter such as roads and bridges. Sure would be a lot harder to get to work without that bridge over the river. Regualtions are put on gasoline to make it burn cleaner and more efficiantly. This is easy to tell at the change of seasons. Summer I can get 30MPG with winter gas I get 26MPG.

            2. Farmer subsidies that artificially elevate food/milk prices.
            So you want farmers going broke so the get out of the farming business and we all starve?

            3. Energy regulations (electricity) that allow monopolies, prevent expansion and increases costs to the consumer.
            In my state the energy regulation has kept the price of electicity about the same for 15 years. Now that regulation is set to expire and the price of electricity is going to go up, way up in 2010 and 2012 thus putting even more stress on small business and everyone.
            I know of at least one energy company that wanted to build a new plant near where I live. It was the people of the area that stopped it, not the government. Would have ment new jobs and more energy but everyone says the same thing Not in my Back Yard” Plus Obama wants to do more with alternitive energy.

            4. Health insurance regulations that do not allow me to shop outside my state for coverage plus forcing me to cover treatments I do not require nor ever use.
            You are are correct, not being able to shop outside your state is wrong and should be addressed in the insurance reform. How do you know you will never need those treatments? Are you a robot? I’m a safe driver but I have car insurance just in case because most of us can not predict what will happen.

            5. Communications regulations that stifles free speech, creates cable-company monopolies and increases costs to the consumer.
            What communication regulations stiffle your free speech? Just the fact you are allowed to blog here proves that is just a stupid statement. Cable companies have compitition with direct TV, Fios, and you can always use an anntenia. No need to buy from the cable company. There are more phone companies out there than you can shake a stick at. Don’t like one, go to another no one is telling you to use any certain phone company.

            But why just five? Any government regulation regardless of the purpose creates a hardship for someone. Only a selfish person would see a government regulation that benefits them not having the ability to create hardship for someone else.

            So you propose no regulations at all? People beware. Anyone can do anything they want? 10 year old kids can go work in a coal mine? Companies can charge whatever they want for things we must have. Food water, ect.
            Well if you are robbed I hope you don’t call the police. If there is a tornado in your area I hope you don’t expect anyone from FEMA to help you out.

          • Tanya Peterson

            rudedude says:
            September 10, 2009 at 9:36 am
            Some people do fix the potholes themselves.
            Yeah, I see people all the time on the Interstate fixing potholes.

            The police are not required to protect you from criminals therefore it is often best to defend yourself.
            The police can not protect everyone at every minute. But if you get robbed aren’t you going to call the police? If someone hits your car are you just going to let it go? You better now because you just said you can protect yourself.

            For some people if you want to save your house you pretty much have to do it yourself. In case of natural disaster the best thing to do is NOT call the government.
            Most Times it is the local government that calls in the federal government for help to rebuild. You don’t have to accept the money if you don’t want it. You can fight with your insurance company for every dime. If you have insurance.

            Amtrak and the Postal Service suck. I’d rather not use the Postal Service but I am required to by law, i.e. government.
            You are required by law to use the postal service? There is Fed Ex, and UPS. I’m sure other shipping companies too. Then there is Email. Very seldom does your mail not get delivered. Given the amout they process each day they do quite well and getting it delivered.

            If you become unemployed you are entitled to unemployment since that is money the government took from you in the first place.
            So this is a form of Socialism you agree with?

            Most safety features are created without regulation is what spurs safety regulation in the first place, to make everyone else use the nifty new safety feature that private enterprise invented.
            But the regulation is why they are there. Did you know that the Tucker car had seatbelts way back in 1948? The other 3 auto makers put Tucker out of business because his saftey features and others would have cost them too much money to keep up with at the time. A perfect example of big business putting profits above the safety of people.

            My boss and I can come to a private agreement between ourselves for my work hours and compensation without the government involvement thank you very much.
            That’s because now it’s accepted that workers work certain hours. Salary and hourly have different rules. What happens if you change jobs and have to go work in a coal mine? Bet you would be mighty happy for an 8 hour day and OSHA there making sure your employer provides you with proper saftey equipment so you don’t get killed.

            What’s wrong with a 10-year-old kid having a job if he wants one?
            Nothing if it’s washing a car or delivering newspapers. But do you really think it’s right for a 10 year old to be out paving roads and walking around on steel highrise buildings. That has to be the stupidest comment you have made in your whole blog. Do you have any kids of your own?

      • Paul Kelly

        Tanya – You need to realize one thing. The Preamble is just that, a preamble. It is not to be quoted as an authorization or limit on anything. The specific of the constitution are contained in the articles that follow the preamble.

        • Tanya Peterson

          But it shows how our founders were thinking at the time. Why else would they have written it? Now you are even disputing the constitution.

        • Tanya Peterson

          The Constitutional Topics pages at the USConstitution.net site are presented to delve deeper into topics than can be provided on the Glossary Page or in the FAQ pages. This Topic Page concerns The Preamble. The first paragraph of the Constitution provides the context for the Constitution — the “why” of the document.

          The Constitution was written by several committees over the summer of 1787, but the committee most responsible for the final form we know today is the “Committee of Stile and Arrangement”. This Committee was tasked with getting all of the articles and clauses agreed to by the Convention and putting them into a logical order. On September 10, 1787, the Committee of Style set to work, and two days later, it presented the Convention with its final draft. The members were Alexander Hamilton, William Johnson, Rufus King, James Madison, and Gouverneur Morris. The actual text of the Preamble and of much of the rest of this final draft is usually attributed to Gouverneur Morris.

          The newly minted document began with a grand flourish &mdash the Preamble, the Constitution’s raison d’être. It holds in its words the hopes and dreams of the delegates to the convention, a justification for what they had done. Its words are familiar to us today, but because of time and context, the words are not always easy to follow.

          http://www.usconstitution.net/const.html#Preamble

      • NoMoO

        Are you delirious? “Promote” does not equal “provide.” Perhaps, instead of just reading the text, you read the CONTEXT – revolt against taxation and “big government.” Who came up with this idea that health care is now a right?? And that some people have to pay for it for others? What if I like your car better than my car. Can I (or govt.) force you to buy me a new one?

        • Tonya Peterson

          But you are already paying for others healthcare. The insurance company takes your money and gives it to others. If you are healthy you won’t ever get that money back.
          And if I don’t have insurance and I go to the hospital I can still get treatment. But who pays for it? The hospital doesn’t. I don’t, but thank you, you do! Not directly, but indirectly through the cost of the care you receive and your insurance premium. The cost gets passed along to those that can pay. So it you go to the hospital and lets say your bill would be a $1000. Now to cover those that can’t pay it increases to $1500. The insurance company pays it, but hey, that guy at the top makes millions and he likes that money. So he needs to make up for it. So say you pay $5000 a year in premiums, in order to cover the cost of rising care because of the number of people that can’t and don’t pay, the insurance company raises it’s premium on you by like 35% next year. So now you’re paying like %7500 a year. And it keeps going up and up and up.
          The purpose of the reform is bring all of that in under control. But hey, you seem to like paying those high premiums. And you’re quite selfish that you feel healthcare should only be for the those can afford it. Of course someday if nothing is done it will come down to only the very wealthy will be able to afford it. Employers will stop providing it because it’s just too expensive for them. How can small business continue to keep paying these high premiums for their employees and still make a profit?

          • Vicki551

            The fallacy of your argument is that the private insurance companies would not be able to stay in business if they priced all of their customers out of being able to afford it. Therefore, premiums will NEVER rise to the level that you imply that only the ‘rich’ will have health insurance. There aren’t enough ‘rich’ people to sustain the company. If premiums got that high, the ‘rich’ would just choose to self insure with investments which most of them already do now.

          • Tanya Peterson

            Vicki551,

            How high do premiums have to rise before the insurance companies decide they priced themselves out of business? How much does your insurance cost? Mine is around $5,000 a year. That’s just for me. I’m single and a non smoker. Cost for families is about $11,000 per year. So lets say insurance is $5,000 a year, that’s like 417 a month. Can you afford that $417? Honestly, I can’t and still keep my current lifestyle. And if you say that I should change my lifestyle to be able to afford it, then you are telling me that I must lower my standard of living. And why should I have to do that? This is America, people come here to raise there standard of living not to lower it.
            And just who is saying FREE Healthcare? Low cost public option is what is now being debated.

      • Bill

        the government can not give to anyone what it has not taken from someone else. I have worked and saved for what I have. No one has given me a darn thing. Can you show me something in writing that says I need to take care of you? (to a greater extend than I bet the government already does) Is there anyone in your family that can provide for them selves or is this a generational issue?

      • Carl

        Tanya, Tanya: Just where do you suppose the government will obtain the resources to provide you with everything your little heart desires? Your attitude indicates you are not a taxpayer; and you need to read on past the PreAmble. The Constitution does not guarantee you happiness and prosperity; it guarantees the freedom to legally persue such. And those of us who work and pay taxes to not feel that stealing from us to “buy” your happiness is legal.

        If, by chance, you do pay taxes, let me ask you this: If you cannot now afford to provide for yourself, how do you propose to do it when your taxes skyrocket to pay for say 10 other people’s healthcare? This program only sounds like a good deal to the lazy, unproductive segment of our society.

      • seal5055

        Tonya, If everyone is on welfare who will pay the taxes to support your lazy ass. How long have you been on welfare.

        • Tanya Peterson

          OK, I’m forgetful, when did I say I was on welfare and don’t pay taxes?

  • PERSONALIBERTY?

    I DOUBT ANY OF YOU KNOW WHAT THE CONSTITUTION PROVIDES FOR! THIS IS TOTALLY OBVIOUS TO ME THAT YOU ARE ALL FOOLS/SHEEP! THE UNITED STATES GOVERMENT WAS TAKEN OVER IN 1913 WHEN THEY PASSED AN ILLEGAL LAW TAKING THE POWER TO COIN MONEY AWAY FROM THE CONGRESS AND GIVING IT TO A CORP CALLED “THE FEDERAL RESERVE”. NOW WE ARE ALL SLAVES TO A GOVERMENT RUN BY THE ICHEST PEOPLE IN THE WORLD! ALL OF YOU NEED TO GO BACK TO SCHOOL AND LEARN ABOUT THE COUNTRY YOU LIVE IN – AND PASS THE AMERICAN GOVERMENT CLASS! I WOULD BE WILLING TO BET THAT PEOPLE IN OTHER COUNTRYS KNOW THE UNITED STATES CONSTITUTION BETTER THEN ANY OF YOU! GO BACK TO SCHOOL IDIOTS! I AM FED UP WITH ALL OF YOU! ALL ANYONE KNOWS HOW TO DO ANYMORE IS CRITIQUE AND CONDEMN HIS NEIGHBOR. I SUGGEST WE HAVE SOME TOWN HALL MEETINGS AND TEACH “AMERICAN GOVERMENT”!

    • PERSONALIBERTY?

      I DOUBT ANY OF YOU KNOW WHAT THE CONSTITUTION PROVIDES FOR! THIS IS TOTALLY OBVIOUS TO ME THAT YOU ARE ALL FOOLS/SHEEP! THE UNITED STATES GOVERMENT WAS TAKEN OVER IN 1913 WHEN THEY PASSED AN ILLEGAL LAW TAKING THE POWER TO COIN MONEY AWAY FROM THE CONGRESS AND GIVING IT TO A CORP CALLED “THE FEDERAL RESERVE”. NOW WE ARE ALL SLAVES TO A GOVERMENT RUN BY THE RICHEST PEOPLE IN THE WORLD! ALL OF YOU NEED TO GO BACK TO SCHOOL AND LEARN ABOUT THE COUNTRY YOU LIVE IN – AND PASS THE AMERICAN GOVERMENT CLASS! I WOULD BE WILLING TO BET THAT PEOPLE IN OTHER COUNTRYS KNOW THE UNITED STATES CONSTITUTION BETTER THEN ANY OF YOU! GO BACK TO SCHOOL IDIOTS! I AM FED UP WITH ALL OF YOU! ALL ANYONE KNOWS HOW TO DO ANYMORE IS CRITIQUE AND CONDEMN HIS NEIGHBOR. I SUGGEST WE HAVE SOME TOWN HALL MEETINGS AND TEACH “AMERICAN GOVERMENT”!

    • Tanya Peterson

      Like Slavery?

  • PERSONALIBERTY?

    BTW – ONE MORE THING – THE FACT THAT THE INSURANCE COMPANYS(RICHEST PEOPLE IN THE WORLD) GOT AMERICANS ARGUEING ABOUT THIS BUT ARE ABSENT. I HAVE NOT HEARD ONE WORD FROM ANY INSURANCE COMPANY! WHERE ARE THEY IN THIS DEBATE? ONE WOULD THINK THEY WOULD BE DEFENDING THEMSELVES – HUH? THIS HAS ALL THE EARMARKS OF A SHELL GAME! ARE WE REALLY THIS DUMB? I HOPE NOT!

    • NoMoO

      Stop shouting, Mr. Illiterati.

    • scruples

      The Insurance companies have lobbyists….. No need to show their faces. Money is changing hands and the sad part about it is that all that money would have helped so many people who have been denied insurance or lost their insurance. MONEY….MONEY …. MONEY. On another note….. the reason people are loosing their jobs is we cannot compete with other conutries who may not pay their people well but do provide health care. IT’S A NEW WORLD!!! AMERICA IS STILL OPERATING ON OLD PRINCIPLES.

  • http://ordy@fedtel./net Eric g

    I heard a guy representing 13000 insurance Cos he of course was for health care reform . republician say 85% of all americans are covered and happy with what they have . I dont think thats true . I supose they count all the people on medicare as having insurance . medicare pays only 80% , Ive been told the doctors and hospitals give medicare a low price for the services . The medical bills are all written in codes so most evreybody has no idea what the charges are . I know the services are written down for the insurance co’s too . But the cash costomer without insurane pays a jacked up price . for one test I used to take was a $100 if I had insurance it was only $35 . I complained and they said I had to realize a lot of people with out insurance dont pay ,so thus we have to charge people without insurance a little more . It kinda sounds like games to me , In buisness I dont like games , My friend who was on the hospital board got mad and said OK i’am not going to pay either unless you take me to court and win . I think we got a new law on this now and I think the cash costomer gets the same low rate as the lowest paid acceptable fee .Insurance does not lower our cost infact it raises our health care costs by about 40% . Insurance only guaratees we will have the covered services when we need it . but the patients have to pay about 20 % more than the insurance cos payout . when you add on the doctors and the hospitals liability insurance , which they also add on to the patients bills we are paying a extra 40% for health care . Insurance is not health care . Evreybody is working to make health care as high priced as they can ,it increses evreybodies income . Obama sounded like he was going to make insurance compulserary . so the insurance co’s could sell more insurance . President Bush wanted evreybody to buy their drugs in the United States , so the drug cos could make more money and do more research . I thought Obama’s health care sounded OK I guess I’am still for hope and change . I did not want to own a insurance co , big banks , or general motors but i do want cheaper health care . If I dont start getting a little more of what I want from my government iam going to be for another change .

  • http://www.tsunamigreen.com Carbon Scorn

    Listen, the underlying motives are easy to see. If leave medical care in the hands of insurance companies it makes it far easier for them to invent and profit from more useless drugs. For example: Look at what’s going on with Swine Flue. This whole thing is a hoax, pumped up by Big Pharma’s propaganda machine. They tried the same thing back in 1976 and that vaccine turned out to be a miserable dangerous failure then too. Hopefully you caught the use of the word “too” – Read this article by CBS News – Had the Flu? It Was Probably Swine Flu – Despite Fears, Many Have Had – and Recovered From – the New Strain
    http://www.abcnews.go.com/Health/SwineFluNews/swine-flu/story?id=8525109

    Now, for the dangers of the vaccine read this: Swine flu jab link to killer nerve disease: Leaked letter reveals concern of neurologists over 25 deaths in America – http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1206807/Swine-flu-jab-link-killer-nerve-disease-Leaked-letter-reveals-concern-neurologists-25-deaths-America.html

    If you want to talk about Government control leading America to a 3 world standard let’s look at the past terms of which our Commander and Chief had the last name “Bush”. Notice the connection to oil, the creation of unnecessary wars, the loss of American lives, the loss of American jobs because our focus on oil made us ill-prepared to compete (GM is the largest example of this), and then the complete lack of attention given to the renewable energy industry – an industry that, had it been developed, would be pumping some $400B to $700B dollars annually into “our” domestic ecomomy – verses the apposite which is to suck that same wealth out of your local economy (actually the entire country).

    You want to talk about ill-control, the manipulation of the American dream, there you have it!

  • simple

    Start the single payer system by requiring all members of congress to have it as their ins. I’t will never again see the light of day.

    • Tanya Peterson

      Intersting statement. One, no one is talking about single payer that got kicked out early in the debate. Also in his speech Wed. night Obama said he would like to provide the same coverage to everyday Americans that they all have now. They meaning those in Congress. So he does feel that everyone is intitled to the same health coverage as Congress receives now. Humpf?

      • Carl

        Oh sure, he’d “like to”, but do you think he will. Hell NO!

        • Tanya Peterson

          The President does not make the laws. He can make suggestions but infact it is Congress that writes the laws. They then go the President’s desk and if he agrees with what Congress Wrote then he signs it and it becomes law. If he doesn’t like it he VETOs it and it goes back to Congress and they vote on it again and can over ride his VETO.
          Remember School House Rock from the 70′s?
          http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mEJL2Uuv-oQ
          http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jHVwrCzRUX0

          Why is the healthcare industry spending millions to kill this bill?

      • seal5055

        Obama and his administration are all lairs you can’t believe anything they tell you. He is in the pocket of the progressive movement and is out to destroy our country as we have known it. He is doing the same thing that Chavez in Venezuela. Is that what you want for America. If it is why don’t you move there they have everything you want. Obama was put into office with 95% of the black vote. They only voted for him because he was black not because he was qualified how stupid does that make them look. Him and his cabinet are nothing but corrupt Chicago thug politicians bringing more corruption to our government, they are teetering on the brink of treason and should be arrested for trying to destabilize America. Wheres the FBI when you need them.

  • AnhydrousBob

    To Tanya,
    You keep quoting the preamble, and have given the definition of “welfare” and have stated that the founders intended healthcare by this. Well, that is ridiculous, and by reading the Federalist Papers you can see that they meant “general welfare” in the sense of “pursuit of happyness”. Nothing more was implied beyond the scope of powers and limit of powers enumerated in the Constitution.
    Besides, to argue with your definition of welfare, I will not be HEALTHIER(are you going to force me to exercise? to eat better? to change my genetic composition? – you are confusing health and medical care) or HAPPIER or WEALTHIER (prosperity) because the government will be taking my money and giving it to someone else – causing me loss of what I have worked for and thereby making me unhappy. So, now you have made some folks less miserable, and more folks more miserable than before, but all are now in misery, so how is that GOOD?

    • Tanya Peterson

      The definition of welfare I provided was not somthing I made up. It came right from the Constitution web site.
      Did our founders believe in providing healthcare for everyone? Probably not, because at that time there wasn’t much in the way of healthcare. If you got sick you were in the mercy of the good Lord as to whether or not you lived or died.
      However, it’s my opinion and only my opinion of course that our founders felt that government should do what it can to help people live a life of happiness. Remember these were very religous Christian Men. As Christians they would have wanted to help people as best they can. But then on the other hand they saw nothing wrong with slaverly and many owned their own slaves. Humpf?
      Of course no one can force you to live a healthier life style. Which is partly to blame for this whole mess to begin with.
      So you are against the government taking your money and giving it to someone else. But you see no problem with an insurance company taking your money and giving it to someone else? It’s the same thing. You pay the insurance company thousands of dollars a year, they take that money, pay their employees with it, pay the top people millions with it, and then pay for people’s medical bills. If you are healthy you don’t see that money ever again, but hey, I’m not that healthly, so thank you for paying your premium because I’m spending thousands on medical care each year.
      Everything I have heard about healthcare reform is that it will allow you to keep your current insurance, will allow you to shop around for insurance if you want, and actually give more business to the insurance companies. For those that can not afford to pay for insurance they will be able to choose the plan run by the government. All sounds like good stuff to me. But some of the people out there are so paranoid and so sure that they government is out to get us that you believe the stupid off the wall stuff that is being said. If in fact they pass a law or even present a law that is different from what was explained Wed. night then you will have a very good right to stand up and march and I’ll be there with you. But as of right now it’s the nut jobs like Hannity, and Rush that are lying to you.

      • AnhydrousBob

        I didn’t refute your definition of “welfare” – I used your definition to refute your argument – poorly, perhaps.
        You still are not getting that this is not a “health-care” issue, but a “medical-care” issue.
        Insurance companies do not TAKE your money, you (or your employer) GIVE it to them to offset a risk. You hit the nail on the head, though – it will be the government that TAKES your money, supports a huge new bureaucracy, and gives you back pennies on the dollar and rations what you get back all while killing innovation in the most advanced medical system in the world.
        You REALLY cannot believe what you are saying, do you? Have you not studied Medicare, Medicaid and the Veterans Hospitals?
        But these arguments are useless, anyway, because those Kind, Christian men who founded this country FEARED government so much that they LIMITED it powers to the point that what you refer to as “Healthcare” is a constitutionally banned program – plain and simple. You need to read the whole constitution and not just infer what it means from the preamble – as you interpret it.
        One day the lies, and those who make them will be revealed – time will tell. But in the mean time, you would be wise to use that God given talent you have to think, and try to sort out the truth. You condemned Rush, et al – and that is OK, as long as you actually listened to them and then decided they were liars. But if you decided that based on what someone else said they said – then you are a fool, and you may be lying yourself when you repeat things you don’t understand.

      • seal5055

        Tonya , Obviously you have never listened to Glenn Beck. If you haven’t traded your television for crack yet, watch him for one week then you will see how full of sh** you really are. You probably think that Van Jones was a hero. You sound like a racist. Next thing is I work hard for my money and I don’t owe you or any other person out there anything. If your not smart enough to get yourself out of the welfare lines then why should I have to give you anything. Go earn it yourself and stop expecting people that have got off there asses and made something of them self to support you.

        • Tanya Peterson

          I have watched Glenn Beck. He’s on Fox news weekdays at 5:00PM He’s a paranoid goofball. He’s making a fourtune off of you other paranoid goofballs. LOL.
          Just for the record, I’m not on welfare, I have health insurance, I pay about 15% income tax. I believe in being kind and respecful to others and helping people out when I can. I’m not a greed bas**** like most of you are here.

          • AnhydrousBob

            Hi Tonya,
            You say you are not greed “biased”, but are you not pushing for a system whereby someone else will pay for your medical care? And why do you call names? If your arguments will stand scrutiny, then post them, if not, resorting to name calling and trying to diminish those of us with other opinions is not Christian at all (as I think you claim to be?). If your arguments cannot stand up to rigor, then do like I did, start trying to figure out which ideas are robust (and bible based).

          • Tanya Peterson

            AnhydrousBob,

            Actually, someone else is already paying for health insurance, or at least most of it. My employer covers the bigest part. I pay $30 a week back to my employer for my insurance.

            President Obama has said he wants a public option insurance to be a low cost option for people to buy that will cover them if they can not afford insurance from a private company. That is what I am in favor of. I don’t expect it to be free for me or anyone. I believe in user’s fees. I believe that insurance cost are killing business. When it take $5000 to $11,000 per employee to insure them how can you expect business to survive. And who pays for that anyway? The business pays the premium, but how does the business get the money to pay the premium? The charge the customer, who is the customer? The tax payers in America for the most part. So in reality, you are already paying for my insurance. Mt company makes a product and sells it to the consumer. The consumer buys it and my company makes a small profit. However to keep making a profit they have to raise the price of the product because the cost of my health coverage goes up 30% every year so they must increase the cost of the product, which makes the consumer complain.
            And Glenn Beck is a Paranoid Goofball, (Actor). Doing what he can to make money for the company he works for so they can pay his health insurance.

  • Floyd

    I can only see one problem with Tanya’s argument. That is the difference between the words “provide” and “promote”. The preamble says “provide” for the common defence, but uses the word “promote” the general Welfare. I believe they would have used the same word and not changed it if their intention was to provide. May be a small difference but one I believe is significant or why would they have changed the verbiage.

    definitions:
    Main Entry: pro·mote
    Pronunciation: prə-ˈmōt
    Function: transitive verb
    Inflected Form(s): pro·mot·ed; pro·mot·ing
    Etymology: Middle English, from Latin promotus, past participle of promovēre, literally, to move forward, from pro- forward + movēre to move
    Date: 14th century
    1 a : to advance in station, rank, or honor : raise b : to change (a pawn) into a piece in chess by moving to the eighth rank c : to advance (a student) from one grade to the next higher grade
    2 a : to contribute to the growth or prosperity of : further b : to help bring (as an enterprise) into being : launch c : to present (merchandise) for buyer acceptance through advertising, publicity, or discounting
    3 slang : to get possession of by doubtful means or by ingenuity

    Main Entry: pro·vide
    Pronunciation: prə-ˈvīd
    Function: verb
    Inflected Form(s): pro·vid·ed; pro·vid·ing
    Etymology: Middle English, from Latin providēre, literally, to see ahead, from pro- forward + vidēre to see — more at pro-, wit
    Date: 15th century
    intransitive verb
    1 : to take precautionary measures
    2 : to make a proviso or stipulation
    3 : to make preparation to meet a need ; especially : to supply something for sustenance or support
    transitive verb
    1 archaic : to prepare in advance
    2 a : to supply or make available (something wanted or needed) ; also : afford b : to make something available to
    3 : to have as a condition : stipulate

    Main Entry: sig·nif·i·cant
    Pronunciation: -kənt
    Function: adjective
    Etymology: Latin significant-, significans, present participle of significare to signify
    Date: 1579
    1 : having meaning; especially : suggestive
    2 a : having or likely to have influence or effect : important
    ; also : of a noticeably or measurably large amount b : probably caused by something other than mere chance

  • michael howell

    I was without insurance once ,and I spoke to both the Dr. and Hosp.,they both cut the costs in half and took monthly payments that I told them I could afford ,which were much lower than any insurance co. payments! so from then on I DID’NT TAKE INSURANCE EVER AGAIN ,and did the same thing two more times, and it worked !!! Now I’am with the V.A. ,WHICH I EARNED AS A ENLISTED MILITARY SOLDIER! This insurance thing is much ado about nothing or obama !

    • NoMoO

      You sound like one of those damn Capitalists. Don’t you know you contributed to someone’s profit! You know, that evil concept that built the United States, despite people like Tanya.

      • Tonya Peterson

        So with that comment I assume that back few years ago when we were paying $4 a gallon for gas that was perfectly fine with you? That din’t bother you at all and it’s perfectly OK that they can charge whatever they want because people will buy it no matter what the price.
        Seems to me those of you that are against healthcare feel that it should be only for those that can afford it. So basiclly you figure this is how we get rid of poor people in this country. Deny them healthcare, or if you use the excuse, well anyone can go to a hospital and get treatment no matter if they can pay or not, who do you think pays for them? The hospital doesn’t take a hit on that, they pass it along to everyone that can pay! This include all of you against reform. So in fact you already paying for those that can’t afford it. You are just giving your money to an insurance company.

  • Drew

    No where in the constitution does it say we should have roads, police, fire departments. These are social programs for the common good, as health care should be. Other countries are not bankrupt because of single payer, that is an outright lie. Coburn is a fool using common republican scare tactics, he has no proof about innovation going away. In fact new products will be continued to be developed because they are developed by PRIVATE companies, sold to PRIVATE hospitals. Our hospitals are not government hospitals, unless you go to the VA. There are government funds going to hospitals but they are run privately for the most part. Some of you should be ashamed of yourselves for being so ignorant to lack the knowledge of the facts and spouting fox news lies.

    • seal5055

      U.K. is broke if you watched fox news you would probably have your so called facts straight. If you watch anyone else and think that they are even credible you are a bigger moron than we think. Fox new is one of the few news agency that isn’t in the obama pocket. You probably think that we should have gun control, You probably agree with global warming. You probably think that the farmers in Central California shouldn’t be able to water the crops because it might hurt a silver minnow,save the minnow let the people starve. You are probably on of those people that think we should pay Brazil to drill for oil so we can pay them to ship it to the USA instead if drilling it here for ourselves. You probably think that Hugo Chavaz is a great man. Why don’t you just get the hell out of my America.

      • Tanya Peterson

        Seems to me that if the majority of the news networks report the same thing and only one reports something completely different than the one reporting the different story is most likely wrong.
        Kind of like on the other day, CNN reported that there was possible terrorist activity going on in Washington DC. They were the only news network to report it and they were WRONG.
        Last week Sean Hannity had quoted Obama as calling the insurance executive “Bad Guys”. But that was wrong! Obama said “They aren’t Bad Guys” That’s are NOT for those of you with trouble with the english language like Mr Hannity.

  • Angelita Galvan Freeman

    This summer, the number originally given by the government of “uninsured Americans” was 47 million. That figure dropped to 30 million by the time of Obama’s speech on Wednesday of this week. That radical change of data should give everyone pause. Demand to know what changed to make 17 million people drop off the listing. Which number can you believe? How accurately does the government calculate such important figures? Can you therefore believe the fairy tale that the proposed medical plan will not add a cent to the deficit?
    A proposed “public option” only gives employers an incentive to stop insuring their workers in order to throw them into the public plan.
    The administration is being run by persons who have perhaps never owned a business, had to meet a payroll, had to decide hiring and firing, etc. They have no way of understanding the market and employer decisions or rationale.
    There is a proposal to penalize and fine anyone who does not obtain insurance. That is not freedom.
    Total health spending was listed as 16 percent of the Gross Domestic Product in 2007. This is 2009, and the numbers have probably risen.
    Look at how government already runs these areas:
    Social Security – predicted to go broke in 2017 or therabouts.
    Medicare — google the amount of billions in fraud involved in this program.
    U.S.Post Office – - raising prices to stave off bankruptcy and planning to stop Saturday mail deliver as part of that problem.
    Amtrac – this railroad system is always in financial straits.
    And you want to let this inefficient government run your medical care?
    The increase in more commissions and bureacracy will only increase costs even more. To make matters worse, it is very difficult to fire inefficient government employees once they are entrenched.
    As for Canada, et al. A friend of mine who lives in the Ottawa area has to come back into the U.S. in order to obtain an epidural anesthesia treatment to treat the excrutiating pain from a degenerating hip surgery site. She has told me that the waiting list in Canada for this treatment is at least 3 months.
    As early as 1982 when I visited former employers and friends in Denmark, the cutoff age to receive heart surgery valve correction was 65.
    Google those countries’ sites to see the level of taxation necessary to implement their “sperm to worm” medical care systems.
    As for Obama’s statement that his proposal does not provide health care to illegal aliens, there is no clear cut language that mandates how to differentiate between who is in this country legally or not.
    That was the reason for Rep. Wilson’s outburst during Obama’s speech.
    And finally, look carefully at the lady who is asking Sen. Coburn the question on this video clip. She appears to be elderly due to her white hair. In a camera closeup you can plainy see reddish hair peeking out from the neck area and sides of what is perhaps a wig??
    Beware of any government takeover of your medical care and decisions.
    Be careful what you wish for.

  • jean

    Pam: YOU are so right. Listen up Americans! We are drowning in debt right now. And if we don’t
    speak up now we’ll be headed for the camps they have waiting for us later. WAKE UP NOW- We
    don’t need the government running anything else into bankruptcy.

    • Tanya Peterson

      What camps?

  • michael knudsen

    Hi, I was born in Canada where we all get a health card. It is really a nice piece of plastic ! Why do you want health care like they have are you nuts ! The Canadian national debt has been 3 times ours per capita, (USA), for decades…
    You will not get good health care in Canada, but if you go to a Hospital with a serious illness you had better be wealthy. When they look up your number they know your income level and work history. The poor get pushed back and even terminated by a overdosing with pain killers, which is legal in Canada. Many poor have to die or just take an asprin so there is room for the beautiful people to have hospital beds…Those who want socialized health care are either simple minded dreamers, or they want to destroy the last greatness we have, health care ! We are number one in the world ! The poor can now go to the best hospitals no problem, for free ?! All services go down hill when the government is in charge, so again are we crazy or sane ? Leave it alone and do not go nuts on me please. When they destroy health care we go into a great depression in one year. Real Estate is dead, Automotive dead, Wall Street dead, Federal Government Bankrupt, then kill the health care industry which leads the world, our economy is dead and buried.
    Think before you speak, us the brain for productive matters, not destroying the best free enterprise system the world has ever known.
    Freedom from big government we prosper, without freedom,,,well,,,give me liberty or give me death !!! I believe this Democratic president we have wants the country on its knee’s, so it can be rebuilt into a socialized government where big brother is large and in charge. People who want freedom, well, guess what, you will have to fight and maybe die to get it for your family and our country. I would do it in a second, how about you ?

    • Tanya Peterson

      Poor people get free healthcare? It might be free to them, but who do you think pays for it? YOU DO! You pay for it through your insurance premium! Duhhhhhhhhhhhhh!

  • Frederick H

    Well folks, we are indeed drowning in debt, not because of the current government, but precisely because the Big Banking Corporations have spent up our money to gain trillion dollars of wealth themselves and let millions of hard working Americans lose their jobs, their retirement savings, and bring them to the brink of bankruptcy. Government is the big scapegoat now and all the Big Old Corporate Boys are laughing their heads off and keep doling out fat bonuses to their CEO’s. Come on people, gimme a break. Your screaming about losing your freedoms because the Obama administration is taking all sorts of control measures. Use you shrunken brain for a little while: the corporate world (with all its greedy lobbyists constantly roaming the grounds at Congress) have been keeping you under control for decades and centuries already. Without their machinations you would still be able to pay for your mortgages; your employers wouldn’t have to feel strangled by the outrageous premium fees charged by the insurance companies and you wouldn’t have to take the expensive medication Big Pharma is shoving down your throats by forcing physicians to prescribe the junk (e.g. killer statins) they’re producing day by day. Many “modern” diseases, such as obesitas, diabetes and cardio vascular disorders are steeply on the rise in (urban as well as rural) America these days. It’s costing us billions of dollars annually, also precisely because many of you out their refuse to be properly insured. Who’s going to pay for the educational programs, the medicine required, the time doctors and nurses have to put into helping all those millions of uninsured or poorly insured folk who need emergency as well as long-term health care? Come on, folks, America has gradually become a classic Third World Country, with just a few thousand very, very wealthy thieves, hundreds of millions of suckers who’re just scraping by day by day and a few more millions in between, most of whom call themselves devout Christians, mind you, and are constantly complaining about the so-called high tax rates in this country. Whereas in America, about the wealthiest country around, the lowest tax rates in the Western world are being structurally charged. In Sweden and The Netherlands, for instance, you’ll be charged with 42-52% of your gross income. We Americans should be horribly ashamed of ourselves.

    • Steve

      Very Well said.

      Let’s start to call lobbying Congress what it really is. A BRIBE! Yup it’s nothing more than a legal bribe. Should not be allowed.

  • Robert Morrow

    I hear over and over again that medicare is broke yet why does the politician continue to subsidies ADM’s corn sweetener operation at a cost of $10 billion dollars? High Fructose Corn Syrup (HFCS)is responsible for a dangerour epidemic of obesity and diabetes, yet no one addresses this problem. Read the labels on foods and it is almost impossible to purchase any thing with out the HFCS in the product. I say take the 10 billion dollars away from the people who is poisoning the people and move it to medicare. Then is will not be broke. Why does our politician want to make people of this country sick? As Lincoln stated that it is a government of the people, by the people and for the people. But, no longer, it is a government of the Politician, by the Politician and for the Politician. I have written to my so call elected officals asking simple question and have yet to received a reply. No longer are we the people in charge, but the powers behind the closed doors are. This was stated just the other day where an investigation of wrong doing was to take place, then called off.
    Question as to why? Because a high power told me to close the investigation. Look out people. from a Retired veteran who is 80 years plus.

  • rudedude

    Tanya is fun, I hope she sticks around for a while.

    But is it Tonya or Tanya?

    Here are my responses to Tonya/Tanya but you’ll have find the original post.

    1. You are correct, gas taxes go to building roads and bridges. But two problems there. I seriously doubt there’s enough gas tax revenue to pay for all that so where does the rest of the money come from? Plus, how did they build roads and bridges before there was a gas tax or big government for that matter? I bet the people did it themselves.

    2. We would not starve for once things stabilized the market would take care of itself. How did people get fed before there were government subsidies?

    3. I’m happy your state has managed to keep the evil private industry under price controls without bankrupting them. But I’m sure there are people living in areas of this country outside your state. With different rules even. But let me ask you this, can you switch to another electric company offering lower rates? If the people prevent a new power plant (which I’m fine with) then they shouldn’t mind the increased rates but I’m talking about government preventing expansion, not the people.

    4. Well, it’s obvious that some treatments are not required for everyone. Do males need maternity coverage that is mandated by some states? If someone doesn’t want coverage for a particular treatment in an effort to lower their costs then they are truly gambling. But they should have the right to make that gamble and suffer any negative consequences. That’s the difference between a free society and a nanny state.

    5. If you think any communications company that operates under the guidelines of the FCC has true free speech then there’s nothing further that can be said. My posting on the internet has nothing to do with it. I only have access to one cable company. I only have access to one phone company. Yes, I have access to alternatives of those services in a completely different manner than what I want but that’s the point.

    I do not want heavy regulations on businesses for unnecessary reasons which is what the discussion is about. Now you are trying to change the discussion to be about laws of the people which is different. People can do anything they want as long as it does not infringe upon the rights of others. A 10 year old can work in a coal mine if they wish, the employer agrees and the parents don’t object. I don’t suggest it but I don’t judge. Companies already charge what they want as to what the market can bear. You are not entitled to the goods of companies just because you “must” have it. If I’m robbed I’ll call the police to enforce the law but not to protect me since I’ve already been robbed. If a tornado roars through town than I’m willing to bet some friends and neighbors would help out, maybe not yours. What did people do about tornadoes before FEMA?

    Second post:

    If it wasn’t illegal for pedestrians to be on the interstate then I bet they would be fixing the potholes if the government (who collect taxes to fill potholes) was failing to do so.

    If I’ve already been robbed then how did the police protect me? Again, the police are not legally obligated to protect you in any way. Plus the police do not “protect” people from car accidents.

    About natural disasters, thank you for proving my point.

    Postal service, tell you what. Start your own company delivering first-class mail with a stamp of your design that you sale for money. Then start going around town stuffing your personally metered mail into mailboxes and see how long before you are arrested and charged with a felony. There is a reason FedEx and UPS do not drop packages in your mailbox when you are not home, it is illegal for them to do so. That’s why they leave it on your doorstop if reasonable to do so. There is a reason FedEx and UPS do not deliver first-class mail, it is illegal for them to do so. Email is not first-class mail, good try.

    Unemployment insurance, no it is not a form of socialism I agree with but at least you can identify it correctly.

    I didn’t know that Tucker was working for the government and was mandated to invent those safety features. Seems to me he created a private enterprise in an attempt to sell vehicles with those safety features. The big three put him out of business by using government to force him out. Thank you again for proving my point.

    But who makes me work the coal mine? I chose to do so therefore I am responsible to decide whether it is a job worth working. In a way I agree with unions (local, not national) forming to force employers of hazardous jobs to take safety precautions. But the unions were doing this by themselves way before OSHA. If I am compensated properly for a ten hour day and I like the job then what’s the problem.

    About child labor, you prove my point. If they want a simple, low skill job then let them. But you are attempting to prove some strange point by suggesting I want to force kids into the mines. If the kid freely chooses to work a job, the employer agrees and the parents (remember them) do not object then what’s the problem?

    And I didn’t realize that this is my blog. Do you understand the difference between a blog and a comment on a blog?

    • Tanya Peterson

      rudedude,
      You are quite the twister of words. But most of what you mentioned is because the government has put laws in place to keep business on the up and up.

      Yes, I can choose to buy my electic from another company if I want.

      Other cable companies are free to offer service in any area if they want. There is no law that says they can’t. However they would have to run all their own cables and it’s not cost effective for them to do so. I asked my local government rep. about that a few years ago because I hate Comcast.

      I can also choose my phone company. I have many land lines and wireless providers to pick from.

      Back in the old days before you and I were around there were no laws requiring employers to do much anything. See you are thinking of present day time and present laws, imagine you were a poor boy working back in the 1920′s just trying to get by. You wouldn’t come to an agreement with your employer you would take what he gives you because you got a family to take care of and when your kids are old enough they work too. Not because they want to but because they have to. Of course you get to live in a company house and pay rent to the company. Then there was the company store where you would have bought almost everything you would need. All you make would go right back to the company. You can’t go to the next town to buy your stuff because it’s too far away to walk or even by wagon because you don’t have a car because you don’t make enough money to buy one. We have it darn good now because the between the government and labor unions laws and regulations were put into place to protect the worker. And still companies make money imagine that.

      The mailboxes are owned by the Federal government. You are correct, it is unlawful to put anything in them other than federal mail. It is their property even though you might buy your own box. Just like you can’t pay Fed Ex to send a letter and expect it be delivered by UPS. You can choose to send a letter by Fed Ex or UPS. Businesses do it a lot. There’s always carrier pigion too if you’re into that. You are not limited to the postal service. And what a drag to have you packages delivered right to your front door.
      Email is not first class mail, correct, but it is another way of sending information from one person to another.

      The police do everything they can to protect you from an car accident. They enforce speed limits,traffic laws and have DUI checks. There is only so much they can do however.

      If someone is going to deny coverage then they MUST pay for it regardless of cost if they are so stupid to do that.NO making deals with the doctor or hospital because they will only tack the rest of the cost onto someone like me.

      The fact that you are free to COMMENT on here is proof that you have freedom of speech. The fact that Joe Wilson can call the President of the USA a liar, (even though he is wrong) for all the world to hear and not be charged with a crime is proof there is freedom of speech. And so on and so. The fact that you can’t say whatever you want on TV or the radio is just being decent and civil.

      How was your day in Washington with Glenn Beck?

    • Steve

      rudedude

      “Unemployment insurance, no it is not a form of socialism I agree with but at least you can identify it correctly.”

      So what you’re saying is that when someone gets laid off from their job we should just let them fend for themselves and not help in any way. If they don’t have money saved to live for a year or more until they find a new job so what.

      It would be interesting to see how things would be in this country without the government helping people get by when they need it as most of you here would have it. But I wonder how you would feel if it were you that were in need of a little help.

  • Scott Shwartzenburger

    I hear the other day that Obama is planning on selling Texas to China in order to pay off our debt to them. The Chineese love the Texas Cowbows and Obama wants to get rid of Texas because they are so much trouble.

  • Steve

    How We Get Out of the Great Depression II
    By Steven Stoft, March 2, 2009
    Here we go again: Hoover got us in, and WWII got us out. Bush got us in, and

    to his credit, started trying to get us out. Though, mostly he threw money at bankers.
    In the Great Depression, Roosevelt tried deficit spending, but he was too timid. Then he stopped in 1937 and the economy nose-dived. It took the humongous deficits of WWII to pull us out of the Great Depression. Those deficits blasted the economy from depression into overdrive.
    Of course after the war, we had to pay off a huge national debt, but during that time, from 1946 to 1980, the economy was mainly quite prosperous. We hit a bad recession when Reagan took office, and his early deficit spending made sense (though he didn’t know it). But then he continued to drive up the debt through the boom years that followed. That didn’t make any sense.
    We are now headed into the worst slump since 1938, and you better hope Obama can fix it because that was not a pretty time. Unfortunately, as in the Great Depression, the extreme conservatives would rather trash the country than have our government succeed. They are much worse than Bush.
    The main thing to remember is that, with consumer spending going down, business is going to lay people off—not hire them. You can’t blame business for this. It’s just a vicious cycle that the economy gets into. And you can’t blame consumers for not spending in bad times. The only way out of this, if we don’t want to wait 10 years, is for the government to spend, pay unemployment insurance, or give tax breaks to people who will spend (not the rich). Of course there’s also the problem of the banks. Obama should stop saving the bankers, and just take over the bad banks. Once they’re working they can be sold back to the private sector.

    • AnhydrousBob

      Steve, you’re not accurate in your historical characterization of the Great Depression. As several authors have pointed out, the depression of the 30′s was caused by government involvement and would have probably only been a recession otherwise.

      Did you know that in 1920-1921 there was a economic downturn that the government did nothing about. The first year was actually worse than the first year of the great depression, but lasted only 18 months without government involvement and ushered in the roaring 20′s. Harding did what textbooks say can’t be done – let the economy take its course and self correct. More recently Black Monday in October 1987 was followed by Reagan doing very little and lasted only a short time.

      The biggest cause of today’s recession is the Fed and its money policy. Secondly, the government’s coercion of the banks to lend to the credit unworthy. Thirdly, the big financial institutions being reckless was actually enabled by the FED telling the banks that they would back any of the bad loans they were pushing on them.

      You are preaching Keynesian ideas. Ideas that the government needs to spend more to fill the gap of lost private spending. Take a look at Japan over the decade of the nineties – the lost decade – and they still have not completely recovered from it, today. We are following their path too closely.

  • Steve

    But what brought us out of the depression of the 1930′s? It was WWII. The government, not the private sector spent money on the war effort. That was what brought us out of the depression. Deficit spending.

  • Frederick H

    Ha, ha, ha Steve, Great! I’ll send an e-letter to Barack begging him to sell all of the Southern USA to the Chinese Then we’ll be freed from those racist trouble-makers down there and we can begin to set up our own clean, green Democratic Republic up North and live very happily ever after. Wouldn’t that be a thang???

  • http://ordy@fedtel./net Eric g

    Healthcare has too many secrets . we have so few surgeons becuase libility insurance for the average US surgeon costs 250,000 dollars a yr . no wonder the doctor has to charge 80 bucks to talk to a patient. The average prescription now runs about 40 dollars , the cost of manufacturing maybe closer to 40 cents . But a lot of liciense and patent fees needed to be collected for us to keep a wealthy phamacuitical industry well taken care of . There is a lot of over charging inorder to cover the costs of taking care of the people that dont pay . Where I live the Healthcare industry sends out a lot of bogus bills . like $20,000 for a few stitches on the check , 10,00 dollars for delivering a baby . They will negotate on these bills and generally provide these services for about 30 % of these bogus bills . Yet not infequently they actually collect these outrages fees . Usually from the working poor without insurance .

  • Harry Snyder

    I have had medical insurance through my employer since 1950. My “Medigap” coverage is great. Medicare D (prescriptions) is tolerable.
    BUT I have family who have no insurance coverage, but guess what?? When they needed medical care, THEY GOT IT. A triple bypass, treating a vision problem, Setting and treating a broken hip, therapy for recovering from the broken hip. Intensive treatment for serious problems of a newborn. Etc, etc.
    Medical care is almost always available, even for the loony who visited the ER almost every day for over a year.
    Medical care is there in the ER for

    every illegal alien who wants or needs it, and the vast number of such people has bankrupted ER’s and is threatening many more hospitals with insolvency.
    Ergo: The U.S. has a wonderful health care system. The financing problem can be solved without putting 159 new, expensive, inefficient bureaucracies in charge of it. The REPUBLICANS have tried to have their plans debated in Congress, but the DEMS won’t allow them to bring the plans to the floor.
    SO, what is the answer?? Those who complain, sometimes vulgarly, should present THEIR workable, affordable solution to the newspapers, Congressman/woman, and to Internet sites such as this one. I/We are waiting……..

    their

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