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The Wrong Conversation About Taxes

February 6, 2012 by  

The Wrong Conversation About Taxes

The conversation about taxes in America is all wrong.

The political elites and the complicit media have convinced the vast majority that taxes are necessary to fund government. Politicians and wrongheaded economists bloviate about where to get the money to fund “necessary” government programs and about paying one’s fair share. Now comes word from the Congressional Budget Office that taxes will increase by more than 30 percent between 2012 and 2014.

The conversation is not being framed correctly, and that is by design. The messengers (propagandists) of the elites want it that way.

First of all, what is truly necessary to fund government; or, better yet, what is necessary government that must be funded? These are questions that are not asked. Politicians won’t address these questions because their goal is to accrue more power over the people through government. Politicians never relinquish power, and government never shrinks.

Think for a moment. In 2000, President Bill Clinton submitted a budget of $1.9 trillion for the 2001 year. Do you recall hardships, starving children, neglected old people or a military with antiquated weapons that year? For 2012, President Barack Obama feels his budget must be $3.7 trillion.

With few exceptions over the past 100 years, politicians have been corrupted beyond belief. They are amoral mobsters who now brazenly steal in the open. When they talk of “cutting government,” they are not talking about cutting anything. They are using doublethink on the American people, and the American people are buying into it.

Politicians believe that government must grow, so they operate under the assumption that a growth by a certain percentage each year is not really growth, but the status quo. So when they speak of cuts, what they are speaking of is cutting the rate of growth. Government never gets smaller. (The exception, of course, is Ron Paul, who has said he will cut $1 trillion out of government in his first year and eliminate whole government agencies.)

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If political winds do blow in the direction of reducing government (as they are doing now), politicians pledge to cut but never make real cuts. If the two parties do reach an agreement on what they call “cuts,” what they cut is the rate of growth — from 10 percent annual growth to 9 percent annual growth, for instance. And then they cry and moan about how the “draconian” cuts are going to cause children to starve, old people to be put out on the streets or hostile nations to invade the United States and overwhelm our underfunded military.

So the political elites then turn the conversation around to taxes. Inevitably, they will try to guilt you into wanting to pay more; or they will try to convince you that someone, somewhere who is richer than you is paying less than you, and that can’t possibly be fair.

Recent discussions over Mitt Romney’s tax returns bear this out. Obama and his fellow Marxists and statists from both sides are bemoaning the fact that Romney “did not pay his fair share” because Warren Buffett’s secretary — or some nebulous “working man” or “working woman” (whatever that means) — pays a higher percentage.

Never mind that Romney was forced to give $6.2 million the past two years to the government, paying a tax rate of 13.9 percent in 2010 and an estimated 15.4 percent for 2011.

In fact, Romney’s rate is far too high. His 13.9 percent rate in 2010 was 5.7 percent higher than the average effective income tax rate of U.S. households, according to The American Enterprise Institute.

But if this is the conversation, it is still framed incorrectly because the United States doesn’t need taxes to fund government. Income taxes are merely a means of controlling and redistributing wealth and providing government with a personal dossier of all Americans.

So-called income taxes, as defined and used by the socialist state, leads the people into a swamp of confusion by design. Socialism attracts corruption and corruption attracts socialism.

Income tax systems go hand in hand with fiat paper money systems. The money creators cannot create wealth, but they can transfer wealth with depreciating (inflating) paper money.

Governments make war on their own citizens by depreciating the currency. As the currency is depreciated (inflated), the people are impoverished. There is no way to protect financial assets with a fiat paper money system except exchanging fiat paper money for gold and silver.

Depreciating paper money is not a store of wealth. Gold and silver are. One can bury paper money to hide it so the money creators and tax collectors do not know where it is. Yet the state can steal the purchasing power of paper money by creating more paper money and diluting the buried paper money.

The transfer of wealth from the producers and savers to the government is a simple process of increasing the quantity of money. This fact eliminates the need for income taxes.

A government that can print money at will does not need taxes for funding. That’s what the government does through the Federal Reserve.

Former New York Federal Reserve Chairman (1941-1946) Beardsley Ruml said as much in a speech to the America Bar Association. He said, “The necessity for a government to tax in order to maintain both its independence and solvency is true for state and local governments, but it is not true for a national government.”

The speech was originally printed in American Affairs in January 1946. The publication’s editor wrote:

His (Ruml’s) thesis is that given (1) control of a central banking system and (2) an inconvertible currency, a sovereign national government is finally free of money worries and need no longer levy taxes for the purpose of providing itself with revenue. All taxation, therefore, should be regarded from the point of view of social and economic consequences.

Just as the need for taxes to fund the government is a myth, so is the national debt. As long as the people believe that the government owes money, the fiat regime can be extended further and further.

If the government admitted that it never intended to pay any debt, what would happen to the 100-year-old fiat paper money system? It would collapse overnight. Nobody can deny this.

Fiat is default from its inception. Yet national debt propaganda justifies the deficit. Debt propaganda covers fiat fraud with legitimacy.

Simply stated, as long as the people believe that government will pay its debts, they are not afraid of default. The concept of debt is more acceptable than default. No matter how massive the debt, the people still believe that government has the ability and the will to pay. But default is now, as well as certain in the future.

The fiat paper money monetary system is a confidence game. No debt will be paid. The whole system is Ponzi.

As confidence in fiat collapses, the government begins to step up the use of its police power against citizens. This is what is behind the passage of bills like the Patriot Act and recent National Defense Authorization Act, which enabled the indefinite incarceration of Americans without trial, and the recent attempts to censor the Internet.

The political elites are now growing fearful of an awakening by the populace. They attempt to blame the failure on the population but realize the seeds for a revolt have been sown, so they pass laws to protect themselves. And government directly attacks and confiscates the wealth of the people under a host of excuses and pretexts.

We are in the last stage of the collapse of the fiat regime. The confidence barometer is the price of gold and silver. The government seeks to suppress the price of gold to keep down the flashing indicator of the loss of confidence in government and in the system.

At some time, there will come a tipping point. Corrupt government will fail because a critical number of the people will realize that government is organized crime. Finally, it will become obvious that the modus operandi of government is to expand its power and size through a stealth transfer of wealth from the people to the government.

This stage is growing near. The next order of events is economic collapse and social breakdown. We are already past the breakdown of law and order where citizens do not have equal protection but selective enforcement of the law and rule by an oligarchy of unaccountable judges and Federal prosecutors.

Bob Livingston

is an ultra-conservative American and author of The Bob Livingston Letter™, founded in 1969. Bob has devoted much of his life to research and the quest for truth on a variety of subjects. Bob specializes in health issues such as nutritional supplements and alternatives to drugs, as well as issues of privacy (both personal and financial), asset protection and the preservation of freedom.

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  • Michael J.

    It was hoped that the Tea Party would become violent and justify the use of Martial Law. When that didn’t happen they covertly incited radical leftist (OWS) to enact the anarchy that will allow them to implement Martial Law. OWS is in place and now idling in nuetral, ready to be revved-up at a time of the elites choosing. The elites now have the trigger and the antidote to be initiated at their discretion.

    • Robert Smith

      From the story: “The money creators cannot create wealth, but they can transfer wealth with depreciating (inflating) paper money.”

      It’s not the “money creators.” It’s the 1% who produce wealth without producing a product. They move paper around sucking it from the middle class.

      There is only so much of anyting. When it goes to a 1% money changer it MUST come out of someone else’s pocket. That someone else is workign Americans.

      We absolutely MUST tax the 1% AND corporations that use the sham of off shore business to duck their fair share.

      Rob

      • steve

        And what about the 47% of the people that pay no taxes? What about their fair share? You got it backwards. Think for yourself and stop toeing the line.

        • John

          Steve, do you really believe that the 40+% that don’t pay taxes are all low income? Somewhere I I have seen a number that approximately 2/3rds of the “people” that don’t pay taxes are hucksters like the ~3billion a year flea market scene, contractors, businesses and the upper so called 1% that use tax evasion shams to get away without paying their share. The only way to fix that would be a flat tax, say 20% (or whatever) on _all_ income domestic or overseas by US tax payers, no deductions or tax breaks, period… unfortunately as fair as this sounds it will never happen because it would result in the 1% carrying ~98% (at 20% tax) of this countries taxes.

          • Angel Wannabe

            John, ya wanna tell us why ANYONE owes a fair share of taxes when there is a printing press, the Fed Reserve, that prints money to the infinite?__They don’t need our taxes!__Taxes and the owing there of, is propganda tool, for guilting us, meddling, nosying and controlling peoples lives__C’mon, wise up!

          • Old Henry

            John:

            Did you actually read Bob’s entire article? The government does not need an income tax. Our nation got along splendedly for almost 130 years with no income tax. The income tax in nothing more than a s tool to give the politicians and the elites power to control / manipulate us.

            Smell the coffee man!

          • DaveH

            It’s not a Flat Tax, John, it’s a Flat Rate Income Tax, and while certainly better than our current tax system, it still allows the spooks to snoop into peoples’ income sources, invade their privacy, and generally harass good people. A Flat Rate Income Tax may sound simple to the wage earners but for the people who run their own businesses — It’s not so simple. They would still need to sort Net Income from Revenues, not a simple process.
            The only really “fair” tax would be a True Flat Tax, where every adult would be liable for the same amount of taxes each year. Then we would just cut a check each year to the Feds and they wouldn’t have any excuse to snoop into our income sources and harass us for mistakes, etc.. The Biggest advantage of such a system would be that, with everybody having skin in the game, the voters would surely insist on much Smaller Government, and they would find private enterprise ways to address their needs much more efficiently than involving Big Wasteful Government. There would be losers of course — The Politicians and their Parasitic Cronies who live at the expense of the rest of us.

          • Dennis48e

            ” They would still need to sort Net Income from Revenues, not a simple process.
            The only really “fair” tax would be a True Flat Tax, where every adult would be liable for the same amount of taxes each year.”

            You are wrong Dave. It is not that diffucult to sort net income from total revenue I have done it in a business.

            The flat $ amount tax is also a screwed up idea. The working poor who make just enough to get by but too much to qualify for government aid (or who refuse to ask for aid) will be screwed yet again by your idea of a flat tax.

          • DaveH

            Don’t tell me, Dennis, that I’m wrong when you don’t have a clue what you’re talking about. Your limited personal experience is meaningless. Every business’s recording requirements are different. Every business’s capital investments are different. Your business, whatever it is, certainly doesn’t speak for the rest.
            And if you truly understood macro-economics, you would know that, whatever the Government spends, it comes out of all of our pockets — including the poor. The fact is that the more that money remains in Private Sector pockets, the more productivity there is that benefits all people outside of the Political Class.
            If that weren’t true, the Poorest Countries wouldn’t also have the Biggest Governments.

          • DaveH

            Here’s an article you could learn from, Dennis. That is, if you really want to learn:
            http://mises.org/daily/5277

          • Joe H.

            John,
            A few of my friends will be real glad to know they are making so much in the Flea market scam!!!! I have about three or four friends that “work” the flea market scene each summer and have a couple of tables in an indoor market. They are lucky if they are clearing 150.00 a month!!! DAMN!!! How could Uncle Scam miss that 60 dollars a month!!!! (40% of 150.00) you make me laugh!!! Thanks, I don’t do that much lately!! you want to see a lot more money in the coffers? Get rid of the most favored contractors list in government contract bidding and open it up to true open bidding, and get rid of all the cost over rides!! Millions upon millions!!! Probably BILLIONS 80.00 for a ball peen hammer??? Sears best is onlt 30.00!!! See what I mean??

          • Buster the Anatolian

            DaveH I read your article and while it is interesting it has absolutely NO application to the points Dennis made.

        • DaveH

          Here is what those dastardly rich actually pay (from IRS receipts):
          http://www.ntu.org/tax-basics/who-pays-income-taxes.html
          That top 1% that Robert whines about not paying their “fair” share are actually paying 37% of the Federal Income Taxes. Their “fair” share would be 1%. As Bob said, Government thrives on invoking the baser instincts of ignorant citizens in order to extract more money from us all. Yes, I said “from us all”.
          Every dollar the Government takes from us is spent unproductively. The more they extract from the rich, the less there is for the rich to pursue the actual productive activities that provide all the goodies that so many of us just take for granted. If you think the Government jobs are productive jobs, just ask yourself ‘why do they need to then take money from the rest of us? Why can’t they just thrive on their own productive activities?’. It’s all a smokescreen, so that, as Bob said, Government can grow their Power and Perks on the backs of the people. They are nothing more than parasites.

          • Flashy

            I didn’t see any definition of methodolgy in obtaining the numbers. Usually sites that have those charts explain how they definied and came about the numbers being used.

            Let someone err in reading those tables courtesy of that well known follower of truth and reality the NTU .. adjusted gross income is total income minus a very few specific reductions such as the chiild credit, dependents etc. Taxable income, which is what the central discussion concerns, is adjusted gross income less allowances for personal exemptions and itemized deductions.

            In other words….those tables have about as much worth as a speck of dirt.

          • Angel Wannabe

            flushman, get over yourself, your proganda isn’t working or haven’t you gotten ityet?___I get you get paid by the hour, but your wasting precious time on the folks here who already know the truth! ;)

          • DaveH

            The numbers are from the IRS, Flashman. They say so at the bottom of each chart.
            It’s your comments, Flashman, that aren’t worth a speck of dirt.
            The regular readers know you have no credibility, Flashman.

          • DaveH

            Flashman says “adjusted gross income is total income minus a very few specific reductions such as the chiild credit, dependents etc.”.
            Flashdunce, exemptions for dependents, as well as other deductions, are subtracted from Adjusted Gross Income to derive Taxable Income. And you really expect people to listen to anything you say?

          • Flashy

            Done your 1040 EZ for the year there DaveH?

          • Angel Wannabe

            Flushed ?????!

          • Moosedrool

            Thou shalt not covet. One of the ten commandments. The OWS people are immoral and violating God’s law and being aided and abetted by the government. We are supposed to love our neighbor as ourselves but the government and media are constantly pushing us to hate our neighbors.

          • JeffH

            Flashy had the weekend off and drops back in for the workweek…ahh, to be an Alinsky shill must be a wonderful way of life…NOT!

            Flashy, your credibility on this board is nil, not really worth the time to read other than to you’re still in the “pete the repeater” mode…give it up would ya…you’re boring and repetitive rhetoric is stale and old…but don’t leave, you’re worth your weight in gold just to expose how the “dark side” shills think.

          • Flashy

            jeffH..when you accuse me of being an Alinsky shill…you realize you are calling me a tea partier since Alinsky’s book is their guidebook…presented to the leadership by Dick Armey.

            Or didn’t you know just because his name sounds foreign and communist, he wasn’t and you actually knew…well, less than nothing?

          • Angel Wannabe

            hey flushed your not that good to try and highjack the board with stoopid crap, stay on topic!

          • JeffH

            Flashy, I’ve reponded to that question twice with nary a response from you…your ploy to toss Alinsky back at me is just that, a ploy! Know your enemy I say…I’ve certainly learned from Alinsky, but I can see you’re still at the “work in progress” stage…

            It must really suck for you to be so “misunderstood”… :)

          • Angel Wannabe

            Jeffh, I gotta give flushed credit, instead of going after “the Newbies” that show up here, FALSIES keeps tryin to change the minds of the regulars!___NOW IS THE TIME TO remember the defInition of INSANITY, THAT IS doing the same thing over and over again, and expecting a different result!

          • JeffH

            Flashy…in Dick Armey’s own words…Dick Armey admits he has been influenced by Alinsky, saying, quote, “What I think of Alinsky is that he is very good at what he did, but what he did was not good.”

            FreedomWorks, the tea party group headed by former Republican House Leader Dick Armey, gives copies of “Rules for Radicals” to its leaders. “His tactics when it comes to grass-roots organizing are incredibly effective,” FreedomWorks spokesman Adam Brandon told the Wall Street Journal. Tea Partyers aggressively confronting lawmakers at town hall meetings is straight from Alinsky’s playbook.

            Thus, one can learn from others, good or evil It’s how you use it that counts right?

          • Angel Wannabe

            Jeffh, ANOTHER SCOREEEEEEE!!!!!!__ God said “whatever that is intended for our harm, will be turned and used for our good, he is an awesome God!!!

          • Michael J.

            Fla Shy,
            Ya, we know Saul Alinsky real well. We know of his writing, where he taught, where he was schooled and where the school came from that provided him with his Marxist indoctrination. We know who admired him and who his students were. Do you?

            BTW, the reason that “Rules for Radicals” was introduced to the Tea Party is so they would recognize the Marxist tactics when they saw, heard or read them.

          • DaveH

            Flashman, I proved your Ignorance about the tax code, and all you can do is come back with a personal insult as if that somehow makes you less Ignorant.

          • Flashy

            DaveH…[perhaps you failed to understand. The tables on the NTU site are AGI. It then has another column that states…here’s the tax rate paid. Which is misleading.

            I have read many a tax return where the people are saying I made X last year. AGI matches the claims for income. Yet, looking at the taxable income claimed on the returns, they barely made enough for a donut and cup of coffee.

            Of course, folks like you who utilize the 1040 EZ form wouldn’t know that…

          • Angel Wannabe

            flashy_ some days your one Nugget shy of a Happy Meal, no kiddin!
            You’ll say anything to be right!

          • DaveH

            The fact that you never admit to being wrong, no matter how we prove otherwise, Flashman, just further weakens your credibility.
            I will repeat.
            Flashman says “adjusted gross income is total income minus a very few specific reductions such as the chiild credit, dependents etc.”.
            That’s wrong, Flashman. All anybody needs do is look at their form 1040 to see you have no clue.

        • Mary

          If I’m not wrong that 47% include people in disability, single mothers etc.etc. etc. I see so many drinking every day and I now they use other drugs. These people should be tested before they get their ck and food stamps. I respect the real disable American veterans and workers with dignity but they are so many parasites. The waste and abuse has to stop one way or the other.

        • Mark Are

          Let me get this straight. First off, it is a SLAVE tax. If you have to pay a tax on your labor to SOMEONE, which is reality, SOMEONE, then you are their slave. WHOEVER decides what your “fair share” is, is your slave master. So instead of looking at it as a TAX, look at it for what it is…SLAVERY. That is how I looked at it 27 years ago when I figured it out. I’m an armed bad slave.

      • Ellen

        Robert, I think you would be very surprised to see the truth about who pays taxes. Obama keeps claiming the middle class is paying more than their fair share, but this isn’t true for the great majority of the middle class. The bottom 25% get more money back in tax credits than they ever paid is (about 10% more); the next 25% pay no taxes; the next 40% (middle class) pay less than 25% of all taxes collected; the top 10% (that’s 9% upper middle class and 1% rich) pay 75% of the taxes. The upper middle class get hit the worst because most of their income is earned income and taxed at 33 or 35%. Plus, once your income is over $170,000 you lose almost all tax breaks and the few your keep (mortg. interest, charity, property taxes) are pro-rated and reduced. The bottom line is Obama is pandering to the middle class pretending they are getting cheated, when they actually get a sweet deal. Of course, the 50% who don’t pay taxes at all get the sweetest deal. Facts and truth never stop Obama from making his false claims. Unfortunately, people still believe him even after all his failures.

        • Old Henry

          Just what the hell is “fari share”, who defines it and who gives them the right to define it? It is nothing more than one of the communist’s rhetorical tools to enable them to keep our eye off the ball which is corrupt excessive government and government spending.

          • FreedomFighter

            Fair, is a flat tax for everyone, anything else is class warfare.

            BtW : if you raise tax rates on the very wealthy, what is stopping these people from moving to a country that will tax them less?

            NOTHING,

            Thats the problem with socialism, YOU RUN OUT OF OTHER PEOPLES MONEY EVENTUALLY.

            Laus Deo
            Semper Fi

          • Les

            We didn’t have a federal tax until the creation of the federal reserve and the IRS which was brought to us by bankers that wanted control of the country. THERE IS NOTHING FAIR ABOUT TAXES!

            If I own a car, I pay for the roads via fees and taxes levied against the car. I also pay a tax to the state and fed for gas. These are the only legitimate type of taxes. The fed’s only real job was defense of the united states of America. Everything else was to be taken care of by the states. the states were supposed to pay the fed for this protection. All of that was lost during Lincoln’s overthrow of the Republic.

          • Joe H.

            Ah, Les, but if you sell it to someone else, THEY too, pay sales tax. and every owner there after pays a sales tax on it!!! In some states, I have heard that even if you state the car was a gift, they ESTIMATE the tax based on condition, year, and mileage!!!

        • Nadzieja Batki

          Since we do not have a class system in this country, and everyone and anyone at any given time goes up in their incomes and also goes down in their incomes, why are there people willing to help fix the “middle class” into extinction?

      • DaveH

        I can’t believe, Robert, that you actually have the gall to correct Bob Livingston when in fact you obviously know nothing of the money creation process.
        Read this book, Robert, and become something better than a rash clueless Liberal:
        http://mises.org/books/whathasgovernmentdone.pdf

        • Buddy

          David:

          There is such a thing of ancestor memory. We all have it. People who parrot the need for taxes seem to be from family trees where tribes were the prevailing societies whereas people like you and I seem to be offsprings of peoples who more or less survived by their own efforts. Admittedly, there is a lot of mix in such classifications. The point is that most people come with preconceived ideas which are difficult to change. Just accept that there are such differences and hope that some opinions will not pull society into primitive tribal societies.

          • DaveH

            Buddy,
            I have no problem with the mass of Propagandized citizens who just don’t know any better. The ones I have the problem with are those who will try to prevent others from becoming educated to reality. People like Flashman or Denniso.

      • Alex Frazier

        Robert, the “1%” as you’ve defined them by implication are not transferring anything from anyone. It is the money creators, not the traders, who are confiscating the wealth of the middle class.

        When a trader or investor buys a stock, they provide working capital for a company. It is to the advantage of the speculative trader to buy that stock when they are undervalued, collect dividends from the company’s net gross profits, and, if desired, to sell their share of stock in that company to someone else when they feel it has reached a desirable increase in market value. At that time, someone else will purchase the stock from them and collect dividends themselves until they fell like selling it.

        To buy low and sell high is the basic concept of retail. A manufacturer produces a product for a certain cost. He then sells the product to someone who wants it, but at a higher price than his cost of goods and production. The balance is his profit. Someone buying stocks is laying out capital and taking a huge risk. It is their intent to obtain a product that someone else will want, but only at a higher cost. The balance will be their profit.

        The stocks and commodities these investors buy and sell are none other than the corn, oil, wheat, gold, soy beans, et al, that we use every day. The open market provides a means for demonstrating a fair market value relative to global supply and global demand. When a manufacturer needs a commodity for production, he buys it from someone who buys it from the open market. That price is determined by the fair market value at the time he buys it. Then he produces his product, marks it up and profits.

        However, this holds true, whether it is a huge corporation, or whether it is a small sole proprietorship. All businesses go through this process.

        Recently, for example, I decided to start building cribbage boards. To do so, I needed wood (red oak in this instance), hinges, clasps, pegs, etc. The base metals for making the hinges and clasps are traded on the open market. Someone bought the metal from a distributor who bought the metal through the market. Then that company manufactured the hinges I needed, sold them to a retail store at a mark up, who then sold them to me at a mark up.

        In short, you really don’t understand how the market works, who the 1% really are, or who is ripping off whom. Please read a few books for your own sake, and for the sake of those you will misinform through your ignorance.

      • http://www.boblivingstonletter.com/ Bob Livingston

        Dear Robert Smith,

        Who and what determines what constitutes a “fair share?”

        Best wishes,
        Bob

        • JeffH

          Bob, I’ve always wondered that myself. To these progressives it must mean anybody that has what they want…I liken them to a modern day version of bushwacker’s know as Quantrill’s Raiders.

          • Flashy

            Rough usage…noting the wide swings whih would be necessary…if an income class takes in 80% of the wealth, they should be paying 80% of the bills.

            What those bills are…such is a political decision. Ending of the wealthy’s subsidies and most of the corporate welfare (especially Big Ag and Wall Street…but coddling, somewhat, heavy manufacturers) at the least.

          • http://www.boblivingstonletter.com/ Bob Livingston

            Dear Flashy,

            So you are to be the arbiter of what’s fair? Where did you obtain such wisdom?

            In 1942, FDR wanted to tax all income over $25,000 at 100 percent. Congress wanted estate taxes at 70 percent. For a class warrior like yourself, isn’t that more fair?

            Best wishes,
            Bob

          • lkar

            The premise of “paying their fair share” is in the interest of expanding government. As Flashy pointed out, “if an income class takes in 80% of the wealth, they should be paying 80% of the bills.” This makes sense to him. However, the Tea party is more than about who pays the bill, it is about what is on the bill! Big government is to expensive and we believe no one should pay this unbelievable bill. This article also points out that the $bill is probably bogus!

          • Flashy

            Mr. Livingston…I gave my opinion of what would be a “fair share”. Nothing more.

            As a follow up, what the bills are to pay is a political decision beyond the topic of what would constitute a ‘fair share’.

            Certainly, receviving most of the benefits and paying less (as part of income) than the average income is not a “fair share”.

          • http://www.boblivingstonletter.com/ Bob Livingston

            Dear Flashy,

            But someone must determine what is “fair.” Who is that to be? What would give him or her such authority?

            Best wishes,
            Bob

          • Alex Frazier

            Flashy, the problem with the “fair share” mentality is that it is based upon the idea that those with more have a greater financial responsibility. It promotes the idea that if you have significantly more than someone else, then you should have to pay more, and they should have to pay less.

            But those crying out for “fairness” in taxation are doing so in a very subjective manner. To cut right to the chase, there is almost always someone who is worse off than someone else. If you have a home, food, clean clothes, and the other basic necessities of life, then you are a great deal more wealthy than the bum living on the street.

            Perhaps, in the interest of the common good, the government should see to it that you open your home to the man who has no home, or share your food with someone who has none.

            In consideration of two interesting examples, that of Jesus speaking of the widow and her tithe, which he declared to be tremendous because of the proportion to income the mite amounted to, and the movie My Fair Lady, when he compares her shilling to £60 due, again, to the relative proportion of payment versus income, we see that wealth is relative. The man who makes $1 million per day seems to you to be excessively wealthy, but to the homeless man on the street, your station in life seems forever beyond his reach.

            The bottom line is that “fair” taxation that taxes one group more than another is just a subtle way for the envious to make the object of their envy pay. when you actually listen to the conversations that take place on this subject, it’s a little disturbing just how many people condemn the rich for the sole reason that they are rich. They declare that they should be taxed more … but not because it’s right or fair, but because they are rich and can afford it.

            That’s it. “I hate the rich because I’m not one of them. They should be taxed more because they have more.” That, my friend, is the concept being tauted as “fair share” taxation.

          • Joe H.

            Bob Livingston,
            If anything over 25,000 is taxed at 100% where would be the urge to strive to get ahead?? In todays world, most people measure success by the amount they earn. that means they would not strive to make over 25,000 and places like general electric, walmart, kmart/sears and others would not exhist!!!

          • Buster the Anatolian

            Joe remember that was in 1930′s or 1940′s dollars not todays dollars. 25,000 then would be perhaps 250,000 today.

          • Deerinwater

            What might be considered as “paying a fair share” would require knowing two things, one what is a “share” and what is “fair”.

            So how would you find the quantity of a single “share”? The amount of discretionary funds left available after liabilities? Maybe ?

            Fairness suggest mutually equitable to all parties.

            Whoever controls this debate will be the victor to any notion of fairness.

            It appears that Ron Paul is telling us all, who that victor is, the powerful, the ones that create money out of thin air.

            Until that “issue” is resolved I sincerely question if any “fairness” is available.

          • Joe H.

            Buster,
            YOU consider that even at that, if Sam Walton had to pay 100% on anything over 250,000 He would have never had the will to start walmart!! think about it man!! They form those corps to become rich, they don’t do it as a public service!

          • Buster the Anatolian

            I am not dissagreeing with the 100% tax rate being wrong I am mearly saying $25,000 was a lot of money in the 30s and 40s where today you would have to make 4250,000 and perhaps more to be as well off.

        • Ellen

          Flashy, Using your scenario about paying 80% of the taxes if you take in 80% of the income would make the upper-middle and rich paying more than their fair share. The top 1% earns 30% of all income and pays over 50% of all taxes. The rich already pay more than their fair share, but Obama thinks they owe more. Why? This is America; we all have the opportunity to get educated. Some people are lucky to have parents who pay for college and some take out loans to pay. Others choose not to go to college. If you are not smart enough for college, that’s life. Most of us aren’t beautiful enough to be super models, but we don’t try to make them give us our fair share of their looks. Envy is a deadly sin and it makes people unhappy.

        • NoParty

          Obviously it’s those coached by Obama that don’t pay any taxes that will determine what is ‘fair’. I have been losing sleep lately, laying awake at night with that sick feeling that I am becoming a burden on the poor and those that don’t pay taxes. I have worked 10-12 hours a day, all my adult life, but maybe I should try to find part time work to cover more taxes. Not to worry, though, Obama will rally them and correct this terrible injustice.

          Obama and Co. explained:

          http://www.americanthinker.com/2008/09/barack_obama_and_the_strategy.html

          When we were attacked on 911, everybody knew it. We’ve been attacked far worse from inside and very few have the slightest clue. I guess it’s all in how it’s presented.

      • Libertarian58

        The whole concept of “fair share” comes straight out of Marxism as well as the entire concept of the income tax itself. Talking about who should pay more or less is like stirring a pot of poop to get it to smell better. The entire system needs to be tossed out as well as the corrupt FED and replaced with honest money. There would no longer be a “need” for this dreadful robbery of the people.

      • hitthedeck

        Rob you are so wrong and in a liberal dream world putting Obama’s class war fare in your assertion that the problem in the non producing rich one percent that is the blame for the ills of our nation. May I remind you that the government is the culprit that produces no product and expends billions with no visible profit nether monetary or for national good? The moves that the politicians made with the trillion dollar bailout were a measure to protect their own assets and investments and had nothing to do with the protection of the people. If they wanted to do good they would had covered every ones mortgage until the nation recovered from the thief’s that were playing piano on the cash register. No one went to jail but instead got those million dollar umbrella bonuses. No one knows where the money went and those of us who are not fools know that a lot was kicked back to the politicians in the form of campaign donations and the rest was a form of spreading the wealth to the already wealthy or left wing organizations that have suckers like you believing that the wealthy one present screwed you. I have news for you it is one percent of the honest ninety percent of the wealthy that screwed you with the help of twenty five percent of the progressive congress that made it legal and if you listen to them they will gang rape you the next time.

    • Brian

      Please learn the definition of anarchy. Don’t confuse it with chaos. Someone who wants more government is NOT an anarchist. Anarchy is the absense of government.

      • JUKEBOX

        You are right. Making government the ultimate thing in a country is called a Dictatorship, and that is what we will have if Obama is elected to another term. Congress and the Supreme Court will soon become a toothless tiger.

        • http://BenCrystal Gottaplenty

          You got it right Juke Go to google and pull up what just took place in the Georgia supreme court with Obummer being supenied to bring all his proof of citizenship and where he got so many social security numbers in states he never resided. Dr, Orly Tatez Esq. story is enough to chill you. The Obummer just acted like it was a big bother and just ignored a congreeional order , the judge just pushed it aside and went on as nothing was at all important to implicate congress. That is just as you stated , a dictatership on its way and the people are unaware of it because the news media plainly ignores the story… Pass the word

          • Flashy

            yawn

          • Angel Wannabe

            Sure you ignore that fact flushed, your paid by the same masterminds who did this!_AKA you butter my bread I’ll butter yours, eh flushy????

          • Flashy

            The hearings officer was asked to based his opinion on the merits of the case. He could well have entered an order for Default…yet was asked…BY THE PLAINTIFFS … for fact finding. Which he did and thus ruled the plaintiffs had no case.

            Pres. Obama is a “natural born” citizen of this Nation as fits the requirements for the office. The hearings officer has ruled just like every other court has on this issue when deciding the merits.

          • Angel Wannabe

            Flasher__I dunno, seems aweful funny, there is never an alledged old girlfriend who speaks out about the Oman, or an alledged old friend, class mates ANYWHERE, and funny how it took over a million to bury all the info…question is WHY?

          • Old Henry

            Gottaplenty:

            Here is an interesting link regarding Soetor’s “rise”.
            It’s a short presentation.

            http://www.westernjournalism.com/if-obama-has-no-natural-born-citizenship-problem-why-did-congress-try-to-fix-it/?utm_source=Western+Journalism&utm_campaign=90fa66b70c-RSS_EMAIL_CAMPAIGN&utm_medium=email

            It will shed new light on the GA Judge’s “ruling”.

          • Old Henry

            Flashy:

            Watch the link I posted under Gottaplenty. There is so much more to this fiasco than we will ever know in our lifetimes. Plus I think the GOP is also working against clearing up this issue as they know that both Rubuo and Jundahl(sp?) are ineligible.

          • vicki

            Flashy says:

            Pres. Obama is a “natural born” citizen of this Nation as fits the requirements for the office. The hearings officer has ruled just like every other court has on this issue when deciding the merits.

            Really? Do tell. Can you provide cites? All of the cases I could find in courts were dismissed because of lack of “standing” and not on the merits of the case. Or was that just another flash in the (brain) pan? (<- gratuitous ad hominem attack. I'm so bad :) )

        • Joe H.

          JUKEBOX,
          Perhaps, with people like Ruth Bader Ginsburg on the suprememcourt, it SHOULD be a toothless tiger. Look up her interview with the Egyptian ambassador. she told hm if his country was looking for a constitution to modle theirs after they shouldn’t look at the US constitution as it was an old document and not good. He should, instead look to the constitution of South Africa for an example. Now this is one of the people that is supposed to be deciding cases on the constitutionality of laws, yet she doesn’t like the document to begin with!! PURE INSANITY!!!

          • Angel Wannabe

            JoeH, Saw it and was thourghly disgusted!

          • Joe H.

            Angel,
            I was not only disgusted, I am now worried!!! THESE are the people that are governing our lives????

      • NoParty

        I think in the present situations, they are calling them anarchists, but in reality, they’re just hired rabelrousers. Designed, with the help of the media, to create the illusion that ‘the people’ are rioting in the streets. Someone sets a McDonalds sack on fire and the camera zooms in and stays focused on it. They jerk the camera around or use really tight shots so you can’t tell there is only 8 of them total. We’ve seen it in Europe and now George Soros says, “I tank de auk-ya-pirez are goik to gat violyn-t”. Gee, he get’s the American media to be his communication device. Everytime he tells us what’s going to happen, he’s just giving out orders.

        I don’t think I’ve ever really met a true anarchist.

    • Old Henry

      Here is a link to a full length documentary on how not only our food, but the food of the world is being brought under the control of TPTB.

      It does not sync completely with Bob’s article, but does sync with the over-all theme of control and dominance.

      It runs about an hour and 45 minutes, but is worth every second. Make some pop corn and settle in. The presentation winds up in Mexico and South Amnerica which are areas we generally do not think much about.

      http://www.brasschecktv.com/page/9292.html

      • Mary

        This is very serious Old Henry . Thanks for the information. I’m sure now that Monsanto is pure Evil. I’m totally sick. Headache, itchy, nausea. I have to vomit. Those bastards are killing us. I bet they put the fat gene in the seeds. This is horrible. On top of every thing bad with this government. This has no name. One day I hope to live enough to see it, justice has to be served. No doubt about this is Population control. Now I understand why there are so many sick people. We are eating poision.

    • Old Henry

      This is a little off-topic, but I figured this is probably the best place to inquire.

      On Sunday I received an email from Deborah Johns
      Proud Blue Star/Marine Mom requesting a donation to Greg Soward’s senate campaign. He is running for the U.S. Senate in New Mexico as a Republican I assume.

      Does anyone here know anything about this campaign?

      Thanks,
      Old Henry

      • http://BenCrystal Gottaplenty

        Just check his record and if he is true consertive vote for him. any new meat is better…

  • Angel Wannabe

    Good Article Bob, agreebly sad but true!__Michael J, I’d say the OWS is alive and well and rolling along nicely, when they’re not crapping on Police cars, they’re throwing Urine at Police in Oakland.
    The loss of confidence in Government and they’re media Pals is becoming wildly prevelent. Its a gimmee, that less and less believe anything seen or heard coming out of Washington or the Lame Stream Media. I’ve little confidence left in Fox as well.
    Anyone that can’t see what’s happening and who’s driving is at best a delusional addict looking for a quick fix.

    Let’s keep our eyes on the ball and protect ourselves and our families the best we can. Prepare for the worst and hope for the best!_Hey if nothing goes down, being prepared, your at least ready for anything!

    • JeffH

      Hear Hear Angel Wannabe! The OWS crowd has lost it’s “glamour”…with exception of the few who’ve bought in and are still embracing that 99% garbage.

      • Angel Wannabe

        JeffH, I’m not gonna count the OWS out jeff, much like the destruction of America over the past 100 or so years, they’re masters, they’re methodical, shrewd and will take they’re time in building up there presence and violence.

        • JeffH

          Angel, I agree, keep an eye on them at all times…I’m just sayin’ that they’re no longer the “force” they were expected to be…a kinda’ replacement for the Tea Party grassroots movement…ya know, the movement that still get’s attacked constantly but won’t be deterred or go away despie all of the unfounded mudslinging the commie/Marxist progs throw at them.

          • Angel Wannabe

            jEFFH, same old tire push that the Tea Party are threats___ the only thing they’re guilty of is being mostly gray haired! lol

          • JeffH

            :) …and patriots!

  • Angel Wannabe
    • Joe H.

      Angel Wannabe,
      That can’t be!!!! don’t you remember denniso and karolyn both sayin that the OWS crowd were all peaceful except for a couple of “rotton” apples???? must be those couple of rotton apples spoiled the WHOLE BASKET!!!!!

      • Angel Wannabe

        JoeH, I’m sure they’ll both look at that and decide it was a fluke!

  • s c

    As usual, this preaches to the choir, and distances those who think government is infallible (especially when their pals are in office). In effect, it is GOVERNMENT [Congress and the White House] that uses POWER to tax, steal and keep Americans dumbed-down so POWER can be concentrated in the hands of the few. Utopia my aching, abused arse.
    Properly defined, government is FORCE. It is NOT human perfection. Those who want mortals elevated to the status of potential gods have themselves to blame for never trying to understand how elected con artists use our stupidity against us.
    With the appearance of the Chicago Flimflammer (and constant help from Congress), America is being used and abused even more. It’s divide and conquer, and “some” people just don’t get it. It’s akin to an admission of surrender. It’s also a form of suicide. Do you think utopian eugenics fans are drooling at the thought of using the latest ‘improvements’ so they can create another distraction?
    You bet your rump they are. It’s called healthcare, and we’re supposed to think Uncle Scam can do anything he wants in the name of ‘perfected’ government.

    • Flashy

      SC….just to correct you and point out…the “divide and conquer’ strategy is being implemented by the Party of No. You know those folks…the ones who refuse to compromise for the good of the nation and instead place politics and self interests above that of society. AKA The GOP, the TP, and the American Taliban contingent.

      • Capitalist at Birth

        Go away Flashy. Your stupidity is only surpassed by your ignorance. Do you think any one with an IQ above 100 actually reads what you write?

        • Flashy

          Such is your opinion…be whatever value it may have. that and a buck 50 will buy a cup of coffee. Are you admitting your IQ is less than 100? Thanks for confirmation of what is the obvious.

          • Ted G

            Stop helping with the deception flashy.
            Its still the spending!

          • Flashy

            Revenues and spending.

          • George, Ga. (American citizen)

            Flashy, some how it seems that “compromise” requires that TWO sides come together for an agreement. That means if neither of the two sides are willing to “compromise” you can’t blame just “the other side” for not coming to agreement. The way I see it, the Democrats AND Republicans are to blame.

          • JeffH

            …but, but George, Ga., that doesn’t fit in with Flashy’s Marxist/Alinsky ideology…as Mr. T would say, “I pity the fool”!

          • Blue Devil

            Flashly — Do you have an interesting theory as to how a cup of coffee got to be a buck fifty? I am old enough to remember when it was a nickel! And a loaf of bread was a dime!

          • Joe H.

            Flushy,
            and who decides what is for the good of the country??? You or a bunch of PROGS????? Thanks but no thanks!!! I’ll pass!!!!

      • professor

        Flashy, why don’t you tell Harry to compromise on those 30-some “job creating bills” passed by the House and has been sent to the Senate for a vote.. Harry is “sitting on all of them” and refuses to bring them to the floor for a vote! Harry won’t even get to the point of saying, “No.” I guess you think that is better….

        Harry is running the, “Party of NON-participation!”

        • Flashy

          Have you ever looked at what those ‘job creating’ bills contain? My guess is you have not. Otherwise you’d know it’s not exactly close to accurate labeling them as ‘job creating” …

          • Brad

            Flashy,

            Since Harry is sitting on those bills, it just goes to prove DemocRATS are the true party of “NO”.

          • professor

            Flashdancer, (one who constantly dances around the truth)

            It makes no difference in the wording of these bills passed by the House. Reid is not participating in the political process, he is obstructing it! “Harry the Obstructionist!”

          • Buster the Anatolian

            “It makes no difference in the wording of these bills passed by the House.”

            Exactly right professor. Since Reed won’t consider them what they contain is a moot point. If he would let them be brought to the floor for consideration then the contents of each bill could be discussed and considered on their merits or lack of them.

          • JeffH

            Flashy, as if anyone believes what you have to say…why don’t you lay it out verbatim the terrible proposed job related legislation that Dirty Harry refuses to discuss or bring to the floor? Or haven’t you read them?

          • Flashy

            Read profiles on some of them JeffH. maybe you should go look them up and read them.

          • Brad

            There you go ladies and gentalmen, Flashy has read some of them, NOT, he hasn’t tried to read one bill because if he had then there would have been some diatribe about what each contained. So Flashy, which bill did you read?

          • JeffH

            Flashy says “Read profiles on some of them JeffH. maybe you should go look them up and read them.”

            I asked you Flashy?

          • Joe H.

            JeffH,
            flushy tried to read the bills!!! He just couldn’t get by the big words, like LEGAL or especially BENEFICIAL!!! you should have seen him struggle with CONSTITUTIONAL!!!

      • Phillip in TX

        Both the Democrats and the Republicans are the problem! It is not just “one” party. Another problem is the States have not been represented in Washington D.C. since 1913. If the States did have representation we would not be in the mess we are in now.

        We can fix things in very short order starting with 2 things:
        1. Scrap our current monster of a tax code and go with the “Fair Tax.”
        2. Repeal the 17th Amendment and have the States appoint their Senators again.

        This will get the ball rolling. Afterwards, we can do things like getting term limits for the House of Representatives (the Senate can be taken care of by the States).

        • Flashy

          Oh yeah…that’ll fix things. So away with progressive taxation (to a system unkown in the modern industrialized world and heavily weighted to the side of the entrenched wealthy) and minimize even further the People’s representation in Congress.

          Sounds like a plan…

          • Ted G

            So you totally bought into this class warefare crap eh Flashy?
            I suppose you believe in a monstrous and centralize government?
            yea that will solve everything!

          • Flashy

            The only ones cfreaming about class warfare are those who entrnched the divisions between the classes and made it nigh impossible to move between them up or down. It’s a convenient label used to attack a return to class mobility and end the welfare system to the wealthy and Big Corporate America.

          • Brad

            Flashy,

            Exactly what a communist/socialist would say.

          • Flashy

            Brad…are you stating that you support an immobile class system which does not allow failure/success for movement between one class and the other?

          • Brad

            If that’s what you’re preaching flashy I’m not buying into your propoganda. This country has the best and most robust middle class in the world willing to sacrafice in hard times and give in good. Your vile comments have zero affect and just prove your ignorance of the US and our resolve in making America great again.

          • Opal the Gem

            “……an immobile class system which does not allow failure/success for movement between one class and the other?”

            That is what you support Flushy. As soon as someone enjoys a little success you want them taxed back to where they started so that there is no net gain by anyone.

          • JeffH

            Flashy says “Brad…are you stating that you support an immobile class system which does not allow failure/success for movement between one class and the other?”

            Seem’s that Brad is dead on with his comment and that YOU are the “lackey” here promoting a system that does not allow success/failure…in other words,you’d much prefer a foundation of serfdom with the peasants enslaved to the government.

            Do you consider yourself to be a 99%’r or doesn’t your “manual” cover those types of questions?

          • Flashy

            JeffH (and others)..I stated the only ones screaming class warfare are those who supported the policies which have made it difficult to move from one class to another.

            Just how you got some warped sense of understanding I was for rigidity of classes I have no idea. Perhaps you should retake 3rd grade reading comprehension.

          • JeffH

            I just love it when you “retreat” Flashy…give it up, it ain’t gonna work here…your lack of credibilityhere precedes anything you claim or say…perhaps you should reread your Marxist manual and comprehend that…

            “Radicals must be resilient, adaptable to shifting political circumstances, and sensitive enough to the process of action and reaction to avoid being trapped by their own tactics and forced to travel a road not of their choosing.”

            “A Marxist begins with his prime truth that all evils are caused by the exploitation of the proletariat by the capitalists. From this he logically proceeds to the revolution to end capitalism, then into the third stage of reorganization into a new social order of the dictatorship of the proletariat, and finally the last stage — the political paradise of communism.”

            ***”An organizer working in and for an open society is in an ideological dilemma to begin with, he does not have a fixed truth — truth to him is relative and changing; everything to him is relative and changing…. To the extent that he is free from the shackles of dogma, he can respond to the realities of the widely different situations….”***

            You can fool some of the people some of the time…but and it is a very big BUT…you continue to fool only fools…

          • Phillip in TX

            Our current tax system isn’t “progressive” it is “regressive.” Try opening you mind and take a look at the “Fair Tax.” It would do wonders for the U.S.

            As far as representation goes, the people get represented in the “House of Representatives.” That is why it is referred to as “The People’s House” and the number of reps is determined by the population of the state (which can change).

            The Senate was meant to represent the States. That is why each States has 2 Senators. Each State gets equal representation.

        • Moosedrool

          Thou shalt not steal. Income tax is theft.

        • Chris Schilke

          You’re right Phillip, It was over when the states decided to hold elections for senators instead of appointing them because they no longer held an allegiance to the state. There may have been problems with appointments but, all systems have their weak points.
          There is a cycle to all governments and we are passing through the central part of the cycle. WE started out as a constitutional republic ruled by law and have transitioned from that to a democracy of mob rule where the law continually changes and are now moving from a democracy to an oligarchy. Eventually we’ll have a dictatorship when someone figures out how to depose the oligarchs.
          This seems to be a natural progression for all countries that have started with the rule of law. As someone above said that the politicians are nothing more than elected criminals who’s only objective is personal gain.
          We are buried under a mountain of law that no one understands. This is our weakness. I heard somewhere that there were 40,000 laws passed last year collectively by all the separate governments in this country.

        • http://PersonalLibertyDigest az-ike

          Philip
          Almost right. Scrap current tax system for NO TAXES.

          And, you can’t repeal the 17th Amendment without Congress writing the new amendment–and they won’t do it. But we can get our individual states to write job descriptions for U.S. Senators: “Each senator’s first priority is to protect the sovereignty of the state. (And, include automatic recall if the senator fails to do it.)

          Of course, the Supreme Court will strike down the ‘job description’ as they have with state constitutional amendments for term limits for U.S. elected officials. That is why every state needs one or more nullification committees.

          The only real choice is to elect new blood in EVERY election–NO multiple terms–and no new terms in another branch of elected government (i.e going to the senate from the house.)

      • Brian

        The Dems are the party of No. No budget. No vote on nearly 20 jobs bills passed by the House. The biggest obstructionist in government is Harry Reid. And if the Tea Party resembles the Taliban then the Dems resemble Pol Pot.

        • Flashy

          The House “jobs bill’ issue. Ever read them to find out just what they contain?

          Did not equate the TP with the American Taliban. thought here are people who belong to both, they are seperate entities.

          No budget…wonder why. ya think the GOP had anything to do with staling and holding one up using the Senate rules requiring a Super majority?

          • ValDM

            Flushy,
            Once again, you must be instructed in reality. The last budget the corporation of the U.S. had was the one passed in 2007 for FY 2008, signed by Bush. The O’boy had a budget in 2008 only because one was in place for him.

            The country has been operating on “continuing resolutions” since then. Now, why do you imagine we haven’t had ANY budgets since 2008? After all, the left had a supermajority (your word, but still a fact)in both the House & Senate in years 2008 & 2009. WHY were we left budgetless for FY’s 2009 & 2010?

            No need to reply to me, By the time you finally get away from the right/left paradigm & figure out that we’ve ALL been had, it”ll be too late.

            And, as an afterthought, PLEASE, PLEASE , PLEASE stop with the party of NO. We all know who the party oF NO is : ALL of them!

          • Flashy

            Val..the Democrats i do not believe ever held an “absolute majority”. Along with two independents, numerically I think you are correct in that they had 60 or 61 seats. if they all voted straight party lines. Which it is nigh impossible to expect from eithr party. Ben nelson couldn’t have voted with the Dems many times because of his constituents. Baucus is as corrupt as they come when it comes to economic bills,

            What they should do, and won’t, is trash the Supermajority provisions. The Dems won’t because they might lose control of teh Senate next year (though I think they have a shot at regaining House control. It’ll be close…). The GOP won’t because they might not gain control of the Senate and may lose the House. And with the small numbers on each side of the aisle who will vote however…without the Supermajority vote provision there is a lot less control over what may or may not be passed.

            What should be done is for once everyone get on the same page and force the question…will you vote to get rid of the suermajority provision? Then have it a national campaign…the Left and Right supporting it. But for the ame reasons the Senate won’t get rid of it…niether can it be a national campaign amongts the populace.

            The reasons I believe the tax reform cry is getting any news is that there is a split of the wealthy on it. That and it is so transparent and so unequal, and people know it and the issue is being forced by the upcoming elections.

          • professor

            Flashdancer (one who continually dances around the truth.)

            No one can “compromise” with the corruption in the communist party!”

          • Joe H.

            Hey Flushy,
            We’re still waiting for you to prove YOU have read them!!! Whats in them Flushy??? Do you even know or are you just blustering as usual???

      • JUKEBOX

        Flashy, when you refer to the party of NO, open your eyes real wide, and take a close look at Harry Reid, who has said “NO,NO,NO” to over 30 bills that the House has sent to him for an up or down vote. When you refuse to bring that many bills to a vote, Reid is the leader of the “REAL PARTY OF NO”!

      • DaveH

        Flashman says “You know those folks…the ones who refuse to compromise for the good of the nation and instead place politics and self interests above that of society. AKA The GOP, the TP, and the American Taliban contingent”.
        Who are the Real American Taliban?
        Read this to learn:
        http://www.lewrockwell.com/rockwell/ustaliban.html

      • MNIce

        Flashy, if an arsonist wanted to throw a gallon of gasoline on the floor of your home, followed by a lighted match, would you “compromise” with him by letting him dump out only half a gallon of gasoline? Sometimes there is no compromise possible. That is the situation in Washington: we have an administration bent on destroying the freedoms that have made America what it is, and transforming us into a second-rate European socialist state combined with third-world style corruption. We cannot compromise with law-breakers by letting them break the law a little less obviously.

        Example: Mr. Obama usurped the authority of the bankruptcy court and took over GM. He then effectively took away the value of outstanding GM bond without compensation by refusing their owners the first rights of repayment. Next, he stole a large share of the company from its legitimate shareholders and gave it to the United Auto Workers. Finally, he misappropriated Federal funds that were specifically marked only for bailing out financial institutions and used that to fund GM, which was not a financial institution. You may prattle all you want about the results, but the ends do not justify the illegal means. GM could have been saved through an ordinary Chapter 11 bankruptcy settlement; it did not require an illegal imposition of fascism, with its wholesale violations of property rights. When the matter belongs in a specific legal venue, you can’t compromise with a dictator who wants to do something completely outside the law.

        • Joe H.

          Mnice, Flushy would have to know if the gas was from the 1% or the 99%, then he would have to b!tch about how it wasn’t TWO gallons, and at last, he would have to know if the matches were made of protected wood!!!

      • Libertarian58

        Flashy, Go study the Hegelian Dialectic and you will discover that you have fallen for the “divide and conquer” ruse harder than anybody. That is, if you can understand it.

    • Angel Wannabe

      sc, Save preaching to choir to those who will listen sc. These liberals, pushing liberal ideas, on a Conservative site are the “Tools” of the propaganda machine in Washington. They’ve outed themselves when they only “PUSH” they’re side of the story. Its so d*mned obvious its pathetic, but I know you get it.

      • JeffH

        :) Once again!

  • Skyraider6

    The American gitizen is one hell of a fighting machine.
    Semper Fi

  • Skyraider6

    Sorry, citizen

    • Phillip in TX

      No problem! Praise the Lord and Pass the Ammo!

  • TOCB

    I posed this very same question on Huffington Post a couple of weeks ago, but no one took up the conversation. My question was how do we know the government is $15 trillion in debt. If the government prinited whatever money needed to make up for a shortfall in tax collection each year, why did a deficit exist? I don’t know if the fix should be a sysem tied to any commodity though. Some peoople have stocked up on gold and other commodities so they would be unfairly advantaged if we went to a commodity standard. I think the answer is the central bank should be allowed to print money, sparingly with transparency and accountability. And it should not be controlled by private interest but by the government.

    • s c

      T, how did you get so far behind the learning curve? Did you EVER learn the difference between a theory and a fact? You seem to have the mind of a child (utopianismitis is the most common form).
      In the event that you’re a parent, consider letting someone else raise your kids. If you dare to think that America’s government can change its ways and act responsible without being FORCED to do it, then you are one SICK PUPPY, and you need immediate attention on a mental ward.
      The Fed, by the way, is a PRIVATE CORPORATION. It is above the laws of the land, and it tells a president what he can and can’t do. Please do America a huge favor, and NEVER vote. Until you get educated, you are a willing part of America’s problems [QUICK! How many states does America have? Can you prove that you're right without having to consult with Obummer?]

      • TOCB

        You may try reading the speech Beardsley Ruml delivered on this subject in 1946. Btw, Ruml was a fomer Director of the NY Federal Reserve Bank, and a renown economist. I had never heard of him until I read this article, but we have similar thoughts on federal debt and taxation. And yes, genius, I know the federal reserve is a private entity, and I don’t agree that they should have the power to print money and charge the government interest on it.

        • Flashy

          You can also read his othr writings on the subject, as well as on nation/state economics and his involvement in Bretton Woods.

          Typical to take a snippet , and say “this is what he stood for!”, when in reality it isn’t.

          • Brian

            Kind of like you take a snippet of what a Tea Party membet said and claim that is the view of the Tea Party. Hypocrisy thy screen name is Flashy.

          • TOCB

            Are you suggesting that Ruml did not think a federal income tax was unnecessary? For the 1946 speech on income taxes I gather he also favored accountability of the federal reserve, not as it exist today. He was proably not too well thought of among his peers at the fed.

          • Flashy

            Brian….. I doubt the claims about the TP stance are over exagerated. If you would…please correct when they are. The ultimate results of the theories being disasterous are opinion…opinion soundly based and supported in fact and history I might add.

          • Flashy

            TOCB…you’re catching the drift. Don’t forget he was instrumental in proposing wage withholding as well as involved in Bretton Woods

    • DaveH

      TOCB says “Some peoople have stocked up on gold and other commodities so they would be unfairly advantaged if we went to a commodity standard”.
      So now in Liberal minds it’s “unfairly advantaged” to protect yourself from the Theft of the Big Government Loving Liberals? Unbelievable.
      TOCB probably would whine about you hurting his hand as you extract it from your pocket.

      • Chris Schilke

        You hit the nail on the head Dave. Some people seem to think that making sound economic decisions should be punished. Buy gold, silver, platinum and put it away. Buy it in small quantities to keep it out of the government radar. Then when the inevitable monetary system collapses those with foresight will be able to help their less prudent neighbors. I don’t think it’s a question of if it collapses but, when it collapses.

      • JeffH

        DaveH, OMG! How much simpler can it be…I mean being prepared is unfair? Let ‘em keep stoking their fires of jealous envy I say…he probably runs out of gas now and then too…but it’s not his fault… :) Too much!

        • Angel Wannabe

          Jeffh and DaveH, yeah ya gotta watch the preppers and those who want to take care of they’re families, they’re terrorists ya know??!!
          :)

          • Angel Wannabe

            aw, and those who pay in cash!

  • Flashy

    I was reading the article, and thought ‘wow, maybe a sky is falling argument without …’ then I reached the last paragrapgh. Yep, there it is, the usual pitch for gold.

    No proposed solutions other than the fwew which would lead to total collapse of the economic system and masive social disruption, and inevitably, a also guaranty leading to a police state to maintain social order.

    Clinton’s budget was 1.9 trillion, leading to a surplus and by all forecasts a full payment of the national debt within 10-15 years. In one decade, the GOP blew that and brought us to the brink of economic collapse.

    Pres. Obama’s budget has the cost of the two wars the GOP brought us…wars which were not in the “official” budgets of the Bush?Cheney gang of theives budgets. It’s been announced that in 2008, what had previously been reported as a GNP shrinkage of 4% was actually 9%…twice the shrinkage of what was thought at the time. We had job losses of 700,000 PER MONTH when Pres. Obama took office, and the cry today was he should have practiced Hooverism (with the same predictable results of a resulting Depression).

    The usual anti tax rants followed by the cry to go backwards to a 19th centry economic system and try and fit it to a modern, 21st century nation/state/global economic system…leaving out such minor points as ‘what would make gold any bnetter a currency?” You can’t eat it etc. It’s value is what someone would trade for it. It’s value is what people “perceive’ the value to be. And one simply cannot operate today’s modern economic system of production and trade with the restrictive value it will necessarily require to be effective.

    • NC

      Flashy, another great post!!You made referece to a year between 2001 and 2008 and those years are not recognined here nor the impact those years had on our present situation. I have never understood how we got so great with all of those starvation causing taxes in place.
      bush blew the golden rule of life: If it ain’t broke don’t fix it!

      • Capitalist at Birth

        Ignorant birds of a feather flock together. My, isn’t that amazing?

        • Flashy

          It is CB. If you didn’t have Moderates and Progressives becoming involved and leading the way, you would all be “flocked” …

          • professor

            Flashy you and your ilk did not make this country great! Our European-forefathers that were dedicated to seeking freedom “FROM government” are the ones you need to thank for your right to be obnoxious and to spout your idiotic comments! You can thank good, God-fearing, freedom-loving, bold Americans for laying the groundwork that resulted in the greatest country the world has ever seen.

            Communism will never give you freedom, opportunity, or the unpresented standard of living which you enjoy. You are a follower of an old, radical, and FAILED ideology that survives only by feeding-off of the prosperity of others. You and your ilk have no place of your own. The idiocy of it all is that you (communists) want to destroy the prosperous that you actually feed upon… After that, where is there to go to get what you want, because, no human that has ever “tasted freedom” wants what you and your kind have to offer.

      • DaveH

        For those readers who would like to be exposed to the reality that has been dealt upon our Freedom and our Prosperity by self-interested Progressives like Flashman and NC:
        http://mises.org/books/historyofmoney.pdf

    • DaveH

      Flashman says “I was reading the article, and thought ‘wow, maybe a sky is falling argument without …’ then I reached the last paragrapgh. Yep, there it is, the usual pitch for gold”.
      Then he proceeds to pitch his own “sky is falling” conjecture — “No proposed solutions other than the fwew which would lead to total collapse of the economic system and masive social disruption, and inevitably, a also guaranty leading to a police state to maintain social order”.
      What a hypocrite.
      And, of course, his sycophantic follower NC (or is NC one of Flashman’s multiple personalities?) gives him kudos for his ignorant comment.

      • Angel Wannabe

        Daveh, Perhaps NC and flashy are one in the same, as has been repeated before?

      • DaveH

        For those readers who don’t understand my “multiple personality” comment about Flashman:
        http://www.personalliberty.com/asset-and-wealth-protection/preserving-wealth/what-now/#comment-439910

        • Angel Wannabe

          DaveH, ;)

        • Joe H.

          Hey Flushy,
          “shake down, breakdown, takedown, you’re busted!!!!!

      • JeffH

        DaveH, they’re like cockroaches aren’t they…they feed on everything from filet mignon to feces and each other in between…I’m tellin’ ya they just can’t be fixed.

    • Chris Schilke

      Flashy, all systems go through cycles and only a maniac will deny that. Our system of unrestrained spending has to collapse and it will and there will be great upheaval and tremendous suffering by people who fail to prepare. The history books are full of examples of these collapses. I’m not a prophet nor am I a prophet of doom it’s just that these things seem to have to take place in order for things to be corrected. Buy gold, silver or something; maybe food and put it away.

      • Flashy

        Premised upon spending without balancing revenues, youm would be correct. Such history has shown us. I do not see that occurring unless the GOP continues to be successful in the anti American plan to refuse fair taxation and refuse to implement spending cuts which go after those who can take the cuts..i.e. the feeders off the wealthy subsidy trough,.

  • Philip Scott

    Number 1 the The Federal Reserve is not Federal, it is not part of the U.S. gov., it is a central bank. Number 2 there are no proven reserves. The Federal Reserve creates money out of thin air and a printing press which we, the U.S. borrow and pay intrest on. The only money on which the U.S. pays no intrest are coins, think U.S. mint. If the Fed. can print money out out of thin air then so can the U.S.Gov., no intrest no debt. Go to the “themoneymasters.com”,their DVD’s will turn what you thought you knew about money & the economy upside down.

  • 101stRECON68

    My goodness Flashy, can’t you ever see past that PARTY nose you wear. This has gone far beyond the Democrats vrs Republican hyperbole. I guess you are now going to say the Democrats NEVER grew government and are as honest as Jesus. Give me a break! These clowns in Washington only care about one thing and that is to stay in power. It make absolutely NO difference if Demo or Repubs are in office as they are ALL crooks, thieves and liars. So get off that “It’s Bush’s fault, it’s Reagan’s fault” crap. We are all sick of it as that seems to be the only lame reasoning you can use.

    • Flashy

      Sorry if you cannot take the truth of the matter. I have not stated the Dems have been blameless in creating this mess. I do blame them, for allowing the ideological perversities we have today to become entrenched. In doing so, they are now forced and, in fact, embrace those same perversities to maintain a seat at the power table.

      However, you see the refusal to negotiate and compromise coming from only one end of the political spectrum. That you cannot with any honesty, deny. And that side insists on policies which either led us into this mess or are so far out of whack with reality as to promise destruction to this nation.

      • s c

        F, Prozac is your drug of choice, Obummer is your god, and moving to North Korea is your best shot at reality. Do you need any help packing? Don’t forget to take your friends. Your programming must be reinforced daily to remain effective, comrade.

        • Flashy

          I suggest if you don’t like having to fix the mess your ideological ilk created, you move. We tried it your way since 1980…and it has brought us to the edge of the abyss. Step aside, let the real men handle the job and you go seek out the place which practices your kind of screwed up theories.

          • JUKEBOX

            Flashy, you and most of America fail to comprehend is that regardless of what party is in power, the ideologies of the eternally entrenched bureaucrats in our government is what dictates policy. Until these people are purged from our government, little will ever change.

          • Flashy

            ‘purged’…interesting word usage. But I catch your drift.

            I’ll agree with you on this one. One reason they are “entrenched’ is to thwart the “spoils system’ and encourage duty and work product free from bribes and influence.

            How about something like at every level, from top to bottom…1 in 4 positions are eliminated . With exception of investigators, admin law judges, case workers, and researchers ?

          • JUKEBOX

            Given the stonewalling by Eric Holder and his Justice Department, I seriously doubt we will learn anything that they or the WH has done illegally for another fifty years.

          • jdub

            Who are the real men you so eloquently speak of?

          • DaveH

            Flashmen, the Real Men (and Women), who read this board regularly, know that you have no credibility and that you are just here to disrupt good people from learning.

          • MNIce

            Flashy, you claim the bureaucracy is free from bribes and influence under the present system. Obviously you have no idea how the system works. First of all, the government employees belong to labor unions. These unions wield an enormous amount of influence through their contributions to political campaigns (check which party gets most of their money – it isn’t the Republican Party!). The labor unions have their lobbyists go to Congress, and the bureaucracies not only send their own people to lobby Congress, but the political interests that instigated the formation of the agencies also send lobbyists.

            For example, even though under the Constitution, the Federal government has no business meddling with education outside of military academies, the Department of Education not only survives attempts to abolish it, but it grows. In its pocket it has lobbyists from the NEA, various higher education faculty unions, university administration lobbyists, etc. And so it pumps more and more tax money into student aid every year so colleges can raise tuition ever higher and put their graduates deeper into debt. I’ve said for years that an increase in the Federal student aid appropriation is a leading indicator of college tuition rate hikes. And as Jack Abramoff revealed, there’s a lot more going on than quid pro quo campaign donations. There are under-the-table ties between bureaucrats, Congressional staff and the lobbyists, all geared to taking financial power away from the people and accruing regulatory power over them.

            The Civil Service Act did not eliminate corruption; it only changed the forms.

          • Flashy

            No MNI..i stated one of the reasons for the civil bureacracy being entrenched was to combat the spoils system. Didn’t state it was working well.

          • JeffH

            Flashy repeatedly says bahhhh, bahhh, bahhh! My God man, are you really that stupid to think that, at this point, someone is going take your “word” for anything?

            Hint, hint…you have confused your Alinsky tactics…
            6. “A good tactic is one your people enjoy.” NOTE: YOUR PEOPLE

            7. “A tactic that drags on too long becomes a drag. Man can sustain militant interest in any issue for only a limited time….”NOTE: BORING RHETORIC

            Move on Flashy…you lose again!

          • Chris Schilke

            The people who made this mess can’t fix it because they still have the same mindset as before. It’s not a matter of Democrats vs Republicans it’s all about people who only have their own self interest at heart. Not that there is anything wrong with protecting yourself but, when it’s done at the expense of the current and of future generations then it’s wrong. I was once told that a politician’s first obligation is to get elected and his second one is to get re-elected. Notice that many of the politicians who run are lawyers. They know how to “give em the old razzle dazzle, give em the old soft shoe.” Something like that; say things without saying anything. Not much difference between a lawyer and a politician and it’s only natural that a lawyer should run as a politician. They had enough practice misleading juries in the courtroom so why not take it to it’s most natural next level?

          • rtringgo

            @jdub: Why the real men F refers to must be himself and all who agree with him. Evident, coming from the likes of F, no?

      • Capitalist at Birth

        By compromise, do you mean: as the Prime Minister of Great Britain did with Hitler? Or as Roosevelt did with Stalin? I will never compromise my principles. If you are willing to compromise your principles you show weak character. I doubt if you understand what it means to be a principled person, Flashy.

        • Flashy

          The CB…i would suggest you are part of the problem, and are not part of a solution.

          • Brad

            I’m sorry Flashy, no body can fix you, your just as stupid as stupid does. You can’t understand that other people have different values and goals for our country, some are good other aren’t so good. Until the day comes when you can see the light at the end of the tunnel you won’t be able to see the tree because of the forest. When a tree falls in the forest does it make a noise, it sure does and what the vast majority of politicians are doing in Washington makes a lot of noise that we can’t hear. The jist is for you too open your eye’s to both sides and make an educated decision on matter’s that concern this great country, quit towing the party line and retorick it’s only proving how gullable you are to the lefts propoganda line.

          • DaveH

            I doubt that Flashman is just ignorant, Brad. He’s been here too long not to have learned something. The most likely scenario is that he’s feeding from the trough, riding on other peoples’ backs, and doesn’t want his gravy train to end. So he tries desperately to divert Good but Politically Ignorant people (we all are to a certain extent) from learning the Truth about Big Government.

          • Brad

            So true DaveH…

      • alexa

        The problem with compromise when the alternative is the alternatives are tyranny and freedom. The compromise becomes a little tyranny and a little freedom.
        The next time around, the alternatives are tyranny and a little freedom. The compromise is a little more tyranny and a little freedom. And that has been going on for decades. Very slowly and methodical.
        Our citizens enjoy a very little freedom and lots of tyranny and being fed the story that they are fat dumb and happy.

        • professor

          There is “NO compromise” with that which is evil (immoral, deceitful, unprincipled, outrageous, a lie, or destructive to ones own way of life.) To do so, is to commit the suicide of all that one believes.

          • JUKEBOX

            We are all victims of “TERMITE” government. Termites do not destroy a building in one day as a bomb does, but with one small bite at a time, they will destroy it over a period of time.

      • DaveH

        The “Compromise” that Flashman and his ilk speak of goes something like this:
        The Liberals propose a Big Spending Bill, then the Conservatives are supposed to accept a lesser Spending Bill as a Compromise. How can the Progressives ever lose?
        On the other hand, if the Conservatives propose Big Spending Cuts, Compromise is the last thing on the minds of the Liberals.
        Flashman assumes that the rest of us are as Ignorant as his Liberal followers, and thus will buy into his drivel.

        • Flashy

          nope…not that at all Dave. You’re wrong as usual.

          • JeffH

            Flashy, if Dave is so wrong, and I don’t think for a minute he is, perhaps you could shed a little more rhetoric…err…light on the matter and explain yourself? They did teach you how to explain yourself in the Alinsky manual or was that not an option in the rulebook…it’s tough when the tables are turned and your weaknesses are constantley exposed.

          • DaveH

            Wait for it, Jeff. Wait for it. Wait for it…….
            Oh well, it’s good that we didn’t hold our breath.

          • Flashy

            Well jeff..if that’s what you think, that is what you think. I do feel somewhat sorry for you….

            I was just pointing out to Dave H he was wrong. Which he is…almost every time he spouts something other than opinion. And his opinions hold about as much water as a leaking thimble.

          • JeffH

            Flashy, yes that is what I think! I’ll take it as a badge of honor that you feel sorry for me…Thanks! Backstep all you want…you are what you are…you’ve made your bed now sleep in it!

            Time for you to leave Flashy…you’re just one of very few here that believe what you have to say…if you even believe it at all.

          • DaveH

            As usual, Flashman has nothing to offer but his adolescent name-calling and other juvenile manipulative techniques.

    • Sirian

      LOL!! Forget it 101st, Flash-o-man-o? He is to far beyond ever realizing the game being played on all of us. Simply ignore the blind fool and that will be just as effective as pouncing on him. Besides, HA, that’s exactly what he seeks out anyway.

    • M. Schwartz

      101st Recon: You are right on the money about professional politicians. To end this self sustaining system via graft (contributions) we must have term limits . If two terms are proper for the presidency, why not for legislators?

      There must also be strict limits on campaign spending, the same for all,
      with individuals only permitted, at specified limits. TV and radio ads must be equal and free to all bona fide candidates. Since we issue their licenses, this should be a requirement.

  • JJM

    So correct, Money Printing = Inflation = Hidden Tax that all of us will be paying within the next 4 years. Like the frog in the pot on the stove, a slow implementation goes virtually unnoticed until after the point of no return is reached.
    I can only hope that the next POTUS, persues many of the objectives of Ron Paul (Freedom, Liberty and Constitutional Government) as they now seem to be preaching, but then we know how many political promises are fulfilled.

    • Capitalist at Birth

      Wrong again. Once prices are inflated they rarely if ever go back to where the original price was, because the money is still devalued. Only oil spikes and comes back down dramatically when demand slacks or supply increases. Gasoline was 22 cents a gallon in the mid to late sixties. I don’t think we will ever see Gasoline below $ 2.oo a gallon in our life time.

      • NC

        Cap, got any idea how long the unemployment lines will be if we find ouselves with utopian $.22 a gallon gas?.Gas was over $4.00 a gallon and when the economy started to slide and the stock market started to slide and the number of people working started to slide, and the number of businesses doing ‘business started to slide, guess what? The price of gas started to slide. Check the charts on all of these area. They all head the same way! DOWN! To say that gas was $1.67 a gallon when Obama took office EXPLAINS exactly what the bush administration fiscal policy had done to our economy!

      • Joe H.

        CAB,
        Yet the oil companies are now complaining they are losing money!!! It was also in the paper the other day that they have closed a few refineries!! Curiouser and curiouser!!!

  • Barbara Holmes

    What we really need is a return to God. He takes care of His own and He loves us. Are we His own? Next, we need solutions for keeping our hard-earned money from government confiscation.

    • Flashy

      Who’s “God” shall we “return” to? Catholic? Protestant? Baptist? Krishna? Hindu? Muslim? Shinto? Wiccan?

      As for your ‘hard earned’ argument…when you give up and cede the enjoyment of the benefits this society gives you, you can make that argument. Otherwise you’re asking for a free handout off the backs of others.

      • Capitalist at Birth

        I am willing to give up Social Security, right now if you are willing to give up (with interest) the $ 350,000.00+ that you and your goon squad have stolen I and my employers since 1965. You are either a plant or a complete idiot.

        • Flashy

          45 years totals $350,000. Ok…no problem. At the same rate it was deducted to help pay the way for millions of retirees safety nets. that would be…$8,000/year.

          I advocate means testing for SSI. it is called Soc Sec INSURANCE. Shall we also demand from your insurance company all the monies you pauid into car and home insurance since, under your theory, it was also stolen from you?

          • FedUp

            we pay car insurance because we choose to. I can choose to NOT drive and NOT pay the insurance. We cannot choose to NOT pay the government, therefore it is THEFT from the working people by the government.

            How often do the saggy pants thugs downtown stick a gun in their victims face and say, “if you have $20, give me 15% of it and if you have $100, give me 24% of it, and if you have $1000, give me 39% of it!” Also, when do they give us the option of not paying if we so choose? The government only tries to catch these thug thieves because they don’t like the competition!

          • Flashy

            And you can choose to not grow old or be 100% certain your will never have a permanent debilitating injury?

            SSI should be what it is meant to be. WHEN you get to 63, if you haven’t been able to invest and have an adequate nest egg, you are guaranteed a retirement income sufficient for an adequate quality of life living. If you have such a retirement account where you do not need the insurance…bless you and thank you for helping our society be what it is in caring for everyone.

          • DaveH

            For those who want to learn the truth about Social Security:
            http://mises.org/daily/5658

          • Brad

            Know your Social Security Card — Interesting.

            Dick Kantenberger
            Gifted Education Writer
            Examiner.com
            History Lesson on Your Social Security Card

            Just in case some of you young whippersnappers (& some older ones) didn’t know this.
            It’s easy to check out, if you don’t believe it. Be sure and show it to your family and friends. They need a little history lesson on what’s what and it doesn’t matter whether you are Democrat or Republican. Facts are Facts.

            Social Security Cards up until the 1980s expressly stated the number and card were not to be used for identification purposes. Since nearly everyone in the United States now has a number, it became convenient to use it anyway and the message, NOT FOR IDENTIFICATION, was removed.

            An old Social Security card with the”NOT FOR IDENTIFICATION”message.

            Our Social Security, Franklin Roosevelt, a Democrat, introduced the Social Security (FICA) Program. He promised:

            1.) That participation in the Program would be
            completely voluntary No longer Voluntary

            2.) That the participants would only have to pay
            1% of the first $1,400 of their annual
            Incomes into the Program, Now 7.65% on the first $90,000

            3.) That the money the participants elected to put
            into the Program would be deductible from
            their income for tax purposes each year, No longer tax
            deductible

            4.) That the money the participants put into the
            independent ‘Trust Fund’ rather than into the
            general operating fund, and therefore, would
            only be used to fund the Social Security
            Retirement Program, and no other
            Government program, and,

            Under Johnson the money was moved to the General Fund and Spent

            5.) That the annuity payments to the retirees would never be taxed
            as income. Under Clinton & Gore Up to 85% of your Social
            Security can be Taxed Since many of us have paid into FICA for years and are now receiving a Social Security check every
            month — and then finding that we are getting taxed on 85% of
            the money we paid to the Federal government to ‘put
            away’ — you may be interested in the following:

            ———— ——— ——— ——— ——— ——— —-

            Q: Which Political Party took Social Security from the
            independent ‘Trust Fund’ and put it into the
            general fund so that Congress could spend it?

            A: It was Lyndon Johnson and the Democratically
            controlled House and Senate.

            ———— ——— ——— ——— ——— ——— ——-

            Q: Which Political Party eliminated the income tax
            deduction for Social Security (FICA) withholding?

            A: The Democratic Party.

            ———— ——— ——— ——— ——— ——— ——-

            Q: Which Political Party started taxing Social
            Security annuities?

            A: The Democratic Party, with Al Gore casting the
            ‘tie-breaking’ deciding vote as President of the
            Senate, while he was Vice President of the US

            ———— ——— ——— ——— ——— ——— ——-

            Q: Which Political Party decided to start
            giving annuity payments to immigrants?

            AND MY FAVORITE:

            A: That’s right!

            Jimmy Carter and the Democratic Party.
            Immigrants moved into this country, and at age 65,
            began to receive Social Security payments! The
            Democratic Party gave these payments to them,
            even though they never paid a dime into it!

            ———— — ———— ——— —– ———— ——— –

            Then, after violating the original contract (FICA),
            the Democrats turn around and tell you that the Republicans want
            to take your Social Security away!

            And the worst part about it is uninformed citizens believe it!
            If enough people receive this, maybe a seed of
            awareness will be planted and maybe changes will
            evolve
            .
            But it’s worth a try.

          • Joe H.

            The difference flashy, is that I choose to buy insurance, I didn’t have a choice with social security!!! Also, with insurance it tells you up front, that it will not pay out till AFTER you die!! Social security has ALWAYS said it would pay at retirement and at least 62!!!

      • JUKEBOX

        Your first three religions all recognize the same God, as well as the Jewish people. You need to remove those dark glasses, and see the LIGHT.

        • Flashy

          But they all have different views on what that “god” stands for … you may also say that Islam’s god is the same as Catholics, Protestants, Jews.

          What about my god? You gonna leave him out of any say in the matter ?

          • JUKEBOX

            Who is your God? Mao, Karl Marx, Lenin, or Communism?

          • Flashy

            None on your list. The first three were human beings. The last is a political ideology and theory.

          • Angel Wannabe

            flushman, your confusing blather isn’t working, are ya tired yet?

          • Flashy

            Nah, not yet. Angel..you’re on a roll and very entertaining today. Thanks for the laughs.

          • Angel Wannabe

            flushed so are you with nothing to offer!

          • DaveH

            You’re correct about that, Flashman, there’s nothing funny about you.
            You are just a pathetic dishonest person who fits well in the Society of Criminals:
            http://mises.org/daily/4125

  • Sirian

    It’s always perplexed me that if we supposedly have a “National Debt” that exists from the expenditure of primarily fiat moneys, totally worthless, then why should we even bother ourselves with paying this “fantasy debt”? In essence it is totally worthless – non existent – in reality. In another sense of reality, the Federal Reserve has absolutely “0” value due to its lack of any assets to back the paper money it continually prints. Being that as it may, then why can’t people realize that again, we are, and have been, led around by the nose and wallet for a hundred years and what has it created for us all? To me, wouldn’t it be down right hilarious if the U.S. Government decided to side step our “National Debt” and simply copy what so many people are doing nowadays with their well devised mortgages? In simple terms, tell the Fed and it’s cohorts across the world, to respectfully – STUFF IT!!

    • TOCB

      That is basically what congress is proposing to do by raising the age to collect social security. Worker and their employers paid into this fund all of their working lives and now the government or at least Republicans want to call the benefits an entitlement in the sense that the govenment is giving workers something for nothing, rather than a govenment debt that is owed to workers for their contributions. The govenment was supposed to be only a custodian of these funds. But I totally agree with Beardsley Ruml that the federal government doesn’t need to impose an imcome tax to pay its bills and it need not incur any debt.

      • Sirian

        Uh, you work for the Fed TOCB? What you’ve just said in response to my comment do not make any more sense (cents?) than a three dollar bill. Where did I mention anything pertaining to SS? Where did I state anything in reference to either political party? Neither area that you’ve brought up were previously mentioned or specified in my comment, therefore, just what direction are you obviously attempting to direct this response? Or need I ask?

      • Angel Wannabe

        TOCB_http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HHP_doQ7jXI

        • Angel Wannabe

          See link below

    • Angel Wannabe
      • Sirian

        Angel Wannabe,
        Do you honestly think TOCB will take the time to watch the video? Even more so, do you think he would give it any serious, objective, rational thought? Sorry kid, the answer is obviously obvious, is it not?

        • Angel Wannabe

          Sirian, that vid is pretty hard to agrue with :)

          • Flashy

            It ws hard to arghue with…i was laughing too much at the thought that there actually were unhinged people laying credence to it …

          • Angel Wannabe

            Waz the matter flashy are ya p*ssed off because he is right or your ideology isn’t penetraiting the masses here___awweee, did we hurt your “widdle fweelings”. We Remember Sal Alinski__condemnation of evidence and constant personal attacks will eventually bring submission___NOT!, DO YOU HEAR LAUGHTER PHAROAH! …..just sayin :)

          • Flashy

            Angel…I would hope you are aware of Saul Alinsky. non other than Dick Armey handed out his books to TP leadership to read and be guided from. And He had William F. Buckley amongst his friends.

            Alinsky is a care name for the ignorant who care not to be informed. He was the one who wrote the “book” on organizing. Neither for the left nor the right.

            His name has become fashionable of late because it’s foreign and communicst sounding. In reality, it’s like the verbage “Founding Fathers” .. just some catch words for the fearing, hating, ignorant to think mean something.

          • Angel Wannabe

            Yawn flushed,hohum, yeah yeah, thanks for the history lesson, too bad it doesn’t pertain to taxes…just sayin

          • DaveH

            For those who aren’t ignorant enough to believe anything Flashman says:
            http://www.crossroad.to/Quotes/communism/alinsky.htm

          • Angel Wannabe

            yeah flushed, Alinsky wrote the book of “Radical Organizing” Bottom up, top down, inside out, yeah yeah we get it and your still trying to use his methods___and sorry buddy, we ain’t buying it__ your wasting your time..

          • JeffH

            Alinsky would be proud but even Alinsky would have suggested that Flashy move on to another group and try to “polorize” them with his “commuity organizing” skills.

            “An organizer must stir up dissatisfaction and discontent… He must create a mechanism that can drain off the underlying guilt for having accepted the previous situation for so long a time. Out of this mechanism, a new community organization arises….”The job then is getting the people to move, to act, to participate; in short, to develop and harness the necessary power to effectively conflict with the prevailing patterns and change them. When those prominent in the status quo turn and label you an ‘agitator’ they are completely correct, for that is, in one word, your function—to agitate to the point of conflict.”

            When the people no longer “participate” then it’s time to move on to new people…but maybe Flashy has tried and failed on other discussion boards too! I guess Flashy believes failure is not an option…

          • Angel Wannabe

            Jeffh, SHOT SCORRRRRRREEEEEE!!!!!! :)

          • Joe H.

            JeffH,
            I can’t remember, Jeff, is there a paragraph that says once you are discovered at your art, MOVE ON??? If there is, I guess Flushed didn’t read it or couldn’t get past the big words like MOVE!!!

  • alexa

    What will happen to gold when the Chinese and Indian economies fail and they need to sell the TONS of gold they purchased?

    • Flashy

      Livingston will have to write a few more articles hyping the “historical trends” and argue it is a temporary decline in value.

      Last week, the NYTs had a good article on the Chinese Central Bank and buying gold. As well as beginning to expose the weaknesses in the Chinese economy.

      • JUKEBOX

        Flashy, you need to go back about 2000 years, and read the history of the Roman Empire, and see if there is any parallel between their rise and fall, and America. History does have a way of repeating itself. Of course, too many people do not believe that history repeats itself. You might also want to study the recent history of Hitler’s Germany to enlighten yourself.

        • Flashy

          I well know the life cycle of empires. Like our own human life, empires have lives as well. And yes, I believe we are at ending a period where a point of decision needs to be followed. Mid life crisis. Are we going to cede civilian control and turn into an oligarchical type of rule, or will we turn to a more lasting, more uniform “rule by people” format ?

          My views of course. And yours?

        • DaveH

          Jukebox,
          We don’t need to go back to the Roman Empire to see that Big Government doesn’t work. We have the proof here and now:
          http://heritage.org/index/ranking

  • steve

    I’m turning 60 and remember how it use to be. What’s happened is the mentality of too many of the people has been coorupted. I am armed to the teeth and will go down only after I take out my fair share of the people that caused this when they come after me.

    • Blue Devil

      steve — I have kids who are as old (or older)than you are, and I am in total agreement with you. Your parents taught you well!

  • T.E.

    GWD Flashy you are such a (Offensive word removed)!
    The GOP gave us a war? Or was it the extreemists? attacking our shore?

    Don’t you have some dusting to do? Your opinions are real crap!

    • Flashy

      1. nice showing of class TE.

      2. Thugs and criminals caused 9/11. The whcked fell for the ruse of fear and hate perpetrated by the Bush/Cheney cabal to implment the unPatriot Act, rip up the Constitution, put in place torture as recognized national policy, spy on Americans etc. And you cheered it on.

      3. What nation attacked us? Not Iraq. We had Sammy contained and he was no danger to us. The Taliban didn’t attack us. We went in and did a regime change when they wouldn’t hand over bin laden…who we promptly forgot about and put on a back burner until this President went and nailed the SOB.

      4. Do not forget, Bush in the summer prior to 9/11 resumed financial aid to the taliban…which had been cut off by Clinton. Bush ignored all signals and warnings about bin Laden. And Bush LIED…and y’all in plain old fashioned cannot be described in any other way, turned coward and accepted usurption of the Constitution for the sake of your own personal hides. And today, those very same folks call themselves “patriots” ….

      • JUKEBOX

        Flashy, ALL of the 9/11 participants were Saudis, which were the same people who donated $20 million to HARVARD for Barry Soetoro Obama’s so called education. Who is in whose pocket?

        • Flashy

          And Saudis were on the only plane Bush let fly out that day, whom Bush cheek kissed (not be kissed, which is symbolic ranking of subservient to the Arab world as well) and who held hands with the Saudis. .

          Get us off oil, and we wouldn’t have these conspiracy theories to toss about would we?

          • Angel Wannabe

            flushed, ain’t you getting it yet?_ Bush had no more say than Bam Bam, they’re actions and mouths move when the TPTB say so….just sayin

      • professor

        Flashdance, you do, do the “radical dance” for the usurper, the foreign destroyer! Yours is a delusional and twisted rhetoric spoken in favor of the enemies of this country. What you think you will accomplish, I am not sure. But I do know that you and yours will be no better off than the rest of Americans when we all must stand for what we believe. You will be considered as useless as any Conservative, and you will receive no rewards for your proselytising to us about the communist regime!

        • NC

          Professor, you call the President “a usurper” yet he has held that office for 3 plus years with no serious threat to remove him at this moment? COULD IT BE THAT YOUR ARE THE DELUSIONAL AND TWISTED ONE?
          Can you prove in a court of law(we are a nation of laws) that he is a foreigner? COULD IT BE THAT YOU ARE THE DELUSIONAL AND TWISTED ONE?

          COMMUNIST REGIME? FOR A BUNCH OF “COMMUNIST”, THE DEMOCRAT ADMINISTRATION HAVE DONE THEMSELVES PROUD WITH OUR FREE MARKET SYSTEM!!!! EVER HEAR THE SAYING “THE STOCK MARKET LOVES THE DEMOCRATS”? EVER WONDER WHY THE PEOPLE WHO KNOW THE HISTORY OF THE STOCK MARKET WOULD SAY SUCH A THING ABOUT A “COMMUNIST REGIME”???? NEED PROOF??? SEE “BULLS,BEARS, DONKEYS AND ELEPHANTS” SITE!! NOT BAD PROFITS FOR A “COMMUNIST” REGIME’ IS IT??

          YOUR DEGREE,”PROFESSOR”, MUST BE IN BOTONY!

          • FreedomFighter

            Yes NC, the demonrats have practiced CRONY CAPITOLISM for a long time, they can be easily bribed by business, everyone knows it.

            so wall street loves demonrats…

            Laus Deo
            Semper Fi

          • professor

            NC (no account for anything.) Catch a grip!

            Your beloved, illegal foreign usurper is guilty by his own words and supporting documentation! He is not qualified to be president of anything let alone this country! He needs to be dragged out of the oval office by the heels and put on trial for his crimes against America. The world knows it and we know it! He has made our country the laughing stock of the world and he is an embarrassment!

            Let your illegal foreigner, right off the streets of a third-world country, release all his records, rather than spending Millions of dollars to “HIDE THEM!” Since when has any real president had a need to spend Millions to hide his “true identity!”

      • DaveH

        You have a problem with the Patriot Act, Flashman? Are you aware it would have expired under Obama, but instead was renewed?

        • Flashy

          Well aware of that DaveH. I oft criticize this administration for that re-signing. As well, i often criticize this administration for not closing Gitmo and transferring those prisoners to super max sites in the states while they await trial in a civilian court.

          • Ted G

            Why close gitmo? If you would prefer to simply execute all terrorists, I’m O.K. with that. Then we wouldn’t need gitmo anymore anyway.
            But otherwise I’d say O.K. but only after the political class tell the truth about who our enemy is and what they beleive in.
            And even then only if they decide to take action against the root of the problem ie. all aspects of the political ideology of islam, including and especially islamic law (sharia).

          • Flashy

            Ted…if a jury decides to snuff someone after a public criminal trial with right to counsel and according to recognition of Rights…it is what it is.

            Now why is it the GOP and/or the far right object to bringing the prisoners at Gitmo to the US to be held in a super max prison until they have their day in court and a trial by jury?

          • Angel Wannabe

            Why Flasher?__because Gitmo detainees belong being tried in Military courts, not Civvie Courts. They’re Wartime Criminals, why should they get the same rights as American Citizens in our Court system, when they’re Foreign combative Enemies?

          • Ted G

            Well first I’m an independent. In general I kinda like that ol’ political saying,
            “I want the republicans out of my bedroom and the democrats out of my wallet” This is a good US constitutional concept/argument in and of itself.

            But back to your comment, Absolutely NO! Under no circumstances should enemy combatants be givin’ any rights to our civilian courts!
            You know this argument, why would you pretend that it doesn’t exist or that it isn’t viable?

      • Joe H.

        Flushy,
        ” untill this president went in and nailed him” HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!! I’ll be sure to remind the SEALS of what a brave companion they had along!!!

        • Angel Wannabe

          JoeH, I laughed at that one too!

  • http://liberyalearts john p.

    Obama and his taxes has got to stop. every time he opens his
    mouth it’s about taxes . then he says there are a lot of people
    that are not paying there shear . how dose he no if that’s the case
    how come the government won’t do something about it .Obama put
    thousands of people to work in government .this president is out
    to lunch and out of control .

    • Flashy

      1. taxes for the Middle Incomes have gone down. Obama want to raise the taxes on the 1% who can afford to get off the dole and pay their fair share

      2. Since 2009, the number of folks employed by givernment has gone down. The job gains have been entirely from the provate sector.

      • JUKEBOX

        I love the truth in your typographical error: “GIVERNMENT”. That is exactly what it has become for the 47%.

        • Flashy

          VBG Nice one.

          • Brad

            Well Flashy, after doing my taxes for calender year 2011 I ended up paying 1/3rd more then previous years and I’m right smak dab in the middle of middle class. What hurt me 2% of my FICA classified as income and making work good tax credit another addition of 800 bucks to my bottom line. What you and the rest don’t see, we are paying more and more into the man that includes the rich as well, hell lets include the poor they don’t need those stinking tax breaks that pay them back more then what they paid in.

      • DaveH

        Flashman says “taxes for the Middle Incomes have gone down”. Oh?
        Care to prove that with some documentation, Flashman?
        Surely you don’t think we believe anything you say?

        • 45caliber

          Dave:

          Actually what he means is that all of us who are taxpayers are really the rich … although I don’t remember moving into that category. So it is okay if we pay more.

          I can never remember by taxes going down unless I was out of work for awhile. At best, they just don’t go up as much as they could have gone.

          • Joe H.

            45caliber,
            as much as I dislike Bush2, I do remember getting a rebate check for, i believe 300.00 when he gave us a cut. Obama didn’t give me a thing, in fact he took his break BACK at the end of the year from most folks!!

          • Deerinwater

            $ 300.00 dollar is what you was bought for?

            Judas Iscariot placed a higher price on life.

            I’d gladly pay $30,000.00 if “W” was never a twinkle in his daddy’s eye.

          • Joe H.

            No, deerleakingwater, I didn’t get bought! Did you bother to read the first few words of my first sentence?? I’ll repeat it for your feeble mental faculties. “AS MUCH AS I DISLIKED BUSH2……..! Bush2 was an azzhole of the first degree, but Abummer is Bush2 on steroids!!! As samurai told you the other day, you NEEEEEEEEEEED to make that popping sound!!!

      • Ted G

        Flashy, misdirection and deception once again!
        The problem is the spending!

        The governement does not have a revenue problem it has a spending problem period!

        I’d be glad to look at/discuss any inequities anyone can bring forth, including a do over on our tax system, but only after the federal governement shave off a trillion or so dollars annually from the spending budget, seperate the SS from the general fund and pay back all that it has “borrowed” (2 trillion +- so far). Until then its all deception, misdirection, lies and propaganda!

    • 45caliber

      john p.:

      In a way, he is right. A lot of people ARE not paying their fair share. Unfortunately those are the ones he is depending upon to vote for him. They are the 53% or so of the population that pays no tax at all. They are popularly known as Welfare recipients or government “workers”.

  • spark300c

    politicians have been corrupted beyond belief because our nation is corrupted beyond. if keep our morals most of corrupted been found out much sooner.

  • Henry Ledbetter

    Bob: Thanks for the post. I pray the Bridegroom comes for His bride very soon but if not, we need to be like the three Hebrew children cast into the fiery furnace. in the book of Daniel. They refused to bow down to the image of a man that set himself up as god.. There MAY come a time when we ought to obey God rather than men.

    • 45caliber

      I’ve always gotten a laugh at men who set themselves up to be god.

      They can destroy but never create as a real God does. They mistake destruction as the quality a god needs. So how can they compete with the real thing? Further, there is one that does destroy and can only destroy – and it isn’t always God. It is Satan.

  • http://moniquer7 Merlin

    It may have been noticed that whenever spending cuts are mentioned it is always for hot button issues and not any of the unneccessary or even frivalous spending programs of the government.

  • Capitalist at Birth

    Bob, Why do you let idiots without facts post their leftist indoctrinated drivel, such as Flashy? I will no longer read the commentary section, as it has become a total waste of time.

    • Karolyn

      Promises, promises! We’ll see you tomorrow CAB!

    • http://www.boblivingstonletter.com/ Bob Livingston

      Dear Capitalist at Birth,

      We invite a free and honest discussion here. I agonize over every decision to ban a commenter, regardless of how uninformed or disruptive they prove to be, and only do it when I’m given no other choice. I believe that sets us apart from other websites. I hope you’ll reconsider.

      Best wishes,
      Bob

      • DaveH

        Good job, Bob.

    • FreedomFighter

      They are just paid Hacks CapABirth, I use there posts to show little children what a lie socialism and communism is, so they are not fooled by it later in life.

      Even 9 year olds can with a little help tell Flash and the others what a load they are spewing.

      Laus Deo
      Semper Fi

      • Deerinwater

        Well Sir, you can say such things but without strong impedance from Flashman or myself, you would do one of two things, grow weak with your argument and entertain unsound ideas Or find false validation in feeling unopposed and over extend yourself. For it’s clear, as the Tea Party claims time and time again they hold some-kind of “majority” that simply does not exist.

        You can pickup your marbles and go home if you wish, but we will be there as well.

        Stay here on Mr. Livingston Forums and met us on a playing court where you enjoy and have benefit of Home Team advantage seems to be the wises choice. You seem to need the work and would do poorly on your own. This national contest will not be won by the loudest voices but only in your tiny circle.

    • Deerinwater

      Capitalist at Birth says:
      February 6, 2012 at 9:48 am
      Bob, Why do you let idiots without facts post their leftist indoctrinated drivel, such as Flashy? I will no longer read the commentary section, as it has become a total waste of time.

      May I suggest, there is a huge piece of life that you seem blind too. Your very success depends on people being wrong and making bad decisions. How would like to compete in a world where people were never wrong? Could you describe such a world? It’s as if you are looking for a “utopia”, a world that has never existed, an exclusive world where all are the same. A true capitalist would do poorly in such a world, would they not?

  • eddie47d

    Unless everyone stops dancing to the tune of Crony Capitalism there will always be corruption in business and in government. Capitalism attracts Corporatism and that in turn attracts corruption. Since Wall Street is a beacon of both Capitalism and Crony Capitalism the corruption will always flow downhill to Washington. Wall Street also has money creators who pull obscene amounts of wealth out of thin air. As we have learned with the economic meltdown they did it for themselves not for the good of the nation. Yet the nation felt (right or wrong) obligated to recover their greed. I’m sure Wall Street is grateful and they have paid most of this money back. Sadly it didn’t stop the Banksters from finding new schemes to further enhance their wallets and offshore accounts at the expense of the consumer. We don’t hear as much about organized crime families anymore because they have taken over Wall Street and Washington. We know the government prints worthless money out of thin air and Wall Street makes tons of money off of false assets that only exist on paper.

    • FreedomFighter

      100% wrong.

      Socialism and communism are the supportors of CRONY Capitolism. Everything you have written is a complete and utter twisting of truth.

      Go wash your mouth out with soap for all that filth must be giving you bad breath.

      Laus Deo
      Semper Fi

    • DaveH

      Eddie says “corruption will always flow downhill to Washington”.
      Downhill? It’s the other way around, Eddie. The Corruption flows from Washington DC. Certain Political Capitalists take advantage of it, just like rent-seeking Unionists take advantage of it.

      • JeffH

        DaveH, even though eddie has the “talking points” in his comment, he still hasn’t a clue what they mean…but at least he’s using them now.

        • DaveH

          He’s actually making more sense since Bob suspended him. Who knows, Eddie may be capable of learning after all.

          • JeffH

            :) It’s called fear DaveH…fear of reprisal! You must admit that this board has been better for it and so has Eddie(a good thing)…hope it holds up.

  • Old Henry

    Over the wek end I heard on the radio that the House passed legislation last week that would eliminate Baseline Budgeting. However, given the fact that the Senate is controlled by the communists it will go nowhere in that body.

    So, I guess we should still continue to buy precious metals. Gold, silver, lead – and those little brass holders…

    • 45caliber

      Old Henry:

      I can afford the lead and their little brass holders. And with that, I’m not worried about the gold and silver…

  • Sabulaman

    Flashy, when you were a kid, did you get your ass kicked on a regular basis?

    • Angel Wannabe

      Salbulaman, If he did, it didn’t do any good!

    • Flashy

      Actually I wasn’t. I was the tall lanky kid who wore a trench coat, dark shades, and had long hair … and for three years starting forward on a team making the state tournament those years.

      A father’s nightmare (VBG)

      You?

      • FreedomFighter

        Now look at you…spewing communist propaganda for satanic masters that care not for anyone you have ever known in your life, whom if given the chance will thru eugenics kill you and 90% of the worlds population.

        You support a telepromter reading fake of a president, from a long line of communist parents. How far you have fallen.

        Whom do you serve?

        Laus Deo
        Semper Fi

        • Angel Wannabe

          FF, LOL!

          • Old Henry

            Actually, what you did in high skrewal matters not. It is what you do with your life that counts. I remember the HS jocks at our 40th. Pot bellied, balding, gray and somewhat stooped. I finally “figered” out that’s why they needed name tags.

          • Joe H.

            OLD Henry,
            And they’re still living that “ONE PLAY” in that “ONE GAME” as that’s all they did with their life was that one play in that one game!!! And there you have FLUSHY!!!

        • JeffH

          FF, that explains the trench coat and the dark glasses… :)

          • Angel Wannabe

            jEFFh, Hat, ER, DarK Glasses, HMM trench coat___sounds like we oughta call hiM….wait for it……….-> FLASHER!!!!!!

          • JeffH

            Angel Wannabe, ROFLMAO & PMP…yer killin’ me today…LMAO again. :)

          • Angel Wannabe

            Jeffh, Shyte!__I forgot to mention the cut off pant legs tied at the knees with rope___P,s, as to your yer killing me today-> No grandkids today, I’m focused!!!!! LMAO!

          • 45caliber

            Angel:

            Flasher, huh? Well, that could explain his present nickname here…

          • Angel Wannabe

            45… At’s what I’m sayin! lol

          • Flashy

            FYI….read the Flashman series of books by Fraser. That’s where the name comes from.

          • Angel Wannabe

            Ok FLASHER, thanks for the History lesson on your name!

          • JeffH

            The Flashman series of books is written by George Macdonald Fraser, and details the life of fictional Victorian soldier, Sir Harry Flashman.

            Flashman first appeared as the bully in Tom Brown’s Schooldays, and over the course of these books, Flashman recounts tales of his service at numerous major military disasters, from the Charge of the Light Brigade to Rorke’s Drift. Flashman is a coward, a scoundrel and a self-confessed poltroon(a spiritless coward), and yet somehow manages to get promoted through the ranks of the British army to brigadier-general over the course of the books.

          • Old Henry

            Long hair, dark glasses and a trench coat. My first thought was: I wonder if he houng out at the grade school play ground? Puts me in mind of that guy on the bench on…. Laugh In(?).

          • Old Henry

            I thought Flashman was a name for margarine… a fake butter.

          • Old Henry

            Jeff H:

            You know…. Soetoro is British… Sounds a little familiar.

          • Joe H.

            JeffH,
            Wasn’t that what the kids from Columbine wore?? Just askin.

          • Angel Wannabe

            JoeH, Laugh In’s old Man was Artie Johnson, with his “Veddy Interrestink!” I can still see Ruth Buzzi bangin him on the noggin with that purse of hers__Too funny!

          • Angel Wannabe

            Old Henry, Sorry that Laugh In memory was meant for you! I accidently posted it to JoeH.

  • Stephan F.

    Mr. Livingston:

    Your well-written piece seems to be based on abject reality, and it contains factual data that I find little to disagree with. However, I do believe a vital aspect has been overlooked, and it needs to be addressed & openly discussed. When debating the topic of government in general, and the Fed Reserve in particular, we continue to repeat the same complaints and cover the same ground over & over, yet fail to come up with a satisfactory conclusion or outcome to these perplexing problems.
    When discussing the artificial & phony paper money system we’re burdened with, we use the same facts & figures and consistently pose similar arguments & accusations in every discussion. And these discussions always lead to us to an inevitable & perplexing question; a question that never seems to get asked. Why is this? And it’s a question that I believe gets to “the heart of the matter” and may help us find a potential solution to remove this pox from society.
    The relevant question I pose is this: Why do we have such a monetary system, and what motivates these criminal central bankers and govt leaders to do what they do? My (seemingly) quick answer is: self-interest & greed, along with self-preservation. Yes, it’s really just that simple. Yet, I’ll bet not one person in fifty thinks about or has this basic understanding of reality. I’m sure a majority would simply say, “Well yes, these officials may be a little greedy, but they are highly dedicated individuals who possess advanced education & extraordinary training, and they conduct their financial affairs based on sound economic principles and ideology.” To which I respond: BULL(!). Anyone who believes that nonsense is either totally ignorant & naïve; or a complicit criminal & a moral degenerate.
    Pundits (and their listeners) never allude to this simply concept of greed as THE driving force & motivation when it comes to understanding how we evolved into this convoluted & immoral condition. These govt officials do what they do because THEY benefit from their actions, along with those who benefit from their largess. Doesn’t it follow that if you were lucky enough to be one of their many financial benefactors, you’d be one of its advocates too, always supporting them by helping perpetuate the status quo? Of course you would, who wouldn’t? (unless you just happen to have some morals & ethics). And if you expose these liars for who they are, and Mr. Livingston has, they’ll either trot out their Orwellian doublespeak to confuse everyone to help refute what you say, or they fall back to a new & different set of false & misleading idiomatic rules & regulations. This tired-old tactic never fails to remind me of that adage, “If you build a better mousetrap, we’ll build a bigger mouse”.

    The bottom line is this: the banking system is a fraud, a farce, and a complete lie. Anyone who advocates for it, benefits from it; and these people belong in jail.

    • DaveH

      There’s little doubt about that, Stephan, but proving anybody’s Intent is a very difficult task. That’s why I think Bob takes the correct course of action, that is to expose the results of their actions, which is much easier to prove.

  • professor

    This is a good article and puts into perspective the “organized crime” that calls itself “our government!” Taxes are about gaining nothing but “Power over people!” When a government “Can print all the money it wants” there isn’t a need for taxation..other than to deny the people rights to private property, security and independence.

    I advocate the elimination of the privately-owned, Federal Reserve Bank, and it Bilderberg owners. It is unconstitutional for “the uber rich of the world” to control and manipulate our economy. They steal our wealth, make our wars, and decide our fate. We should be very afraid of this group and it is of the utmost importance that we secure freedom from it. If you are wondering why our government is no longer responsive, look to the Bilderbergs to find the real power that governs our country! It is at “their will” our country suffers.

    I fear that Congress knows the future, and they busy themselves preparing for what is coming while the rest of us will be caught ill-prepared. They are afraid. Soros has predicted that there will be riots in America soon, and Martial law will be declared. If that doesn’t get Americans motivated, we might as well prepare to accept tyranny.

    • DaveH

      Yep. Banking ought to be subject to the Free Market like any other business should be. If they allow themselves to be over extended, they should pay the price with failure. Let the citizens decide which form of money to embrace. Don’t let self-interested Politicians or Bankers make those decisions for us.

      • 45caliber

        Up until about 1930, banking was left to fall if required. The banks were required to maintain in their vaults gold of equal value for what paper money was distributed by that bank. The problem was that the government also set that value at an artifically low rate to prevent the people from hording it.

        The bankers then discovered that by selling that gold to Europe they could make many times what the American value of the gold was. Of course, they got that “many times” money in paper money which was not allowed to be used to cover the paper money issued here. The people found out and began to demand the money they had deposited in banks be refunded in the scarce gold left.

        FDR came from one of the largest banking families and his family had gotten into selling of gold early. They stood to be bankrupt if the people were allowed to regain what they had deposited. So did many families of Congress. So they passed a law first it illegal for Americans to own gold except in very limited quantities. Since it was illegal for Americans to own, they couldn’t force the banks to give them gold for the deposits. Instead they got paper money – which basically wasn’t worth much more than the paper it was printed on. It saved the families that had robbed their depositers.

        And don’t bother to suggest that we go back on a gold standard. First, there isn’t enough gold unless you REALLY jack up the price. Second, I doubt very much if there is an ounce of gold not used as a stage prop in Ft. Knox. Why should the government keep it stored there when it could be sold to raise even more money for the politicians to spend? In fact, much of it may even have been distributed to those same politicians to insure that they had something to insure they remained rich when the dollar became worthless.

    • NC

      PROFESSOR YOU SAY THIS COUNRRY IS THE LAUGHING STOCK OF THE WORLD! If the only people laughing at us are moss backed 18th century thinkers like you, so be it! The world is going past you people so fast you people can find enough conspiracies to explain what you can’t control or even comprehend. Your paranoia is ledgend! Read these posts about the current threat of big government agents coming to your doors and how these 2nd amendment Rambos will meet them and blow them away.

      Where do you people live? Ain’t none of that stuff going on in my neighborhood. We have experienced fluxuations in our economy through out our history and have ALWAYS come back to prosperity just like during the Clinton years.The two Presidents before him had tripled the national debt and the good years returned and were projected to get even better if that cretin from Crawford hadn’t thought he could it better and stepped in “do do”.

      • JeffH

        Is Obama’s goal to destroy the U.S. economy?
        Stokely Carmichael once said, “We must destroy the capitalistic system which enslaves us.”

        Joseph Stalin, known to have caused the death of over a million people, advocated the destruction of societal structures to build the communist society he envisioned. In not so many words, Stalin declared that to recreate a society you must first destroy it.

        Stalin’s view wasn’t far from Carmichael’s, but from a different perspective. Stalin believed that striving for personal wealth was inherently wrong, leading to great economic disparity and class structures—again, the haves and have-nots. Stalin felt that the only way to achieve public equality was to eliminate private ownership in favor of communal ownership. Since the only omnipresent communal structure in a nation is the government, the government would own everything, eliminate any wage structure and dole out “what the people need” as it saw fit.

        The term “Socialist” is thrown about quite frequently in association with President Obama, but you rarely hear the term “Communist.” The President’s socialistic tendencies are clear and unambiguous yet impure. Obama hasn’t advocated against private ownership but then he takes stakes in GM and Wall Street. He touts new green technology companies which couldn’t exist without government subsidy. The President seems perplexed between the desire for a classless society and the inability to achieve it while property resides in the hands of individuals. His health care bill is far more communistic than socialistic. The bill aims to level the playing field on health care access, effectively redistributing care, but a massive government structure determines who gets what and when they get it: communism. For the good of the people the government will decide what is “good.”
        The Obama administration has identified another 219 new regulations this year alone and people wonder why job growth has been almost non-existent?

        Which brings us back full circle to the Carmichael/Stalin discussion: is Mr. Obama’s desire to build a new more “balanced” society require that he first destroy what we have? Could the president’s actions be intended consequences rather than simple incompetence? His actions don’t appear to be aimed at encouraging job growth or boosting the economy.

        Rather than acknowledging the failure of his economic programs, Obama seems intent on doubling-down.
        http://www.examiner.com/conservative-in-national/is-the-obama-s-goal-to-destroy-the-u-s-economy

        • JeffH

          NC, if you want conspiracy…try this one on for size!

          RUSSIAN OFFICIAL: “OBAMA IS A COMMUNIST KGB AGENT”
          Fife, a physicist and computer engineer, had been traveling to Russia for a joint venture with a state-owned company when the shocking revelation was revealed to him. After several business meetings, Fife and his partner were invited to the company owner’s home at the end of the journey for a farewell dinner.

          The owner’s wife was a Communist Party official and was “climbing two ladders”, as Fife puts it, one ladder being the KGB and the other being the traditional Russian society and business ladder. As the evening wore on, the female Communist official became increasingly agitated over a perceived slight and her emotions spilled over.

          “You Americans like to think you’re so perfect!” she snarled. “Well, what if I told you that very, very soon you’re going to have a black president… and he’s going to be a Communist!”

          The KGB operative was not finished. As she had now dropped this bombshell on the entire gathering, she felt compelled to continue.

          “His name is Barack,” she sneered. “His mother is white and his father is an African black…”

          Barack Obama’s parents ostensibly met in a Russian language class. This could have been where his mother was recruited by Barack Obama Sr, who could have already been working undercover for the KGB.

          In order to brainwash the child from an early age, they surrounded him with diehard Communists and fellow KGB agents, such as Frank Marshall Davis, a known Communist Party USA official. The Soviet KGB directly funded the CPUSA. This would fit directly into what the Russian Communist said about ‘Barack’, boasting “He has been raised to be an atheist and a communist.”

          “He will be a blessing for world communism,” Fife recalled her saying, after getting over the initial shock of hearing the current president was a KGB agent.

          http://www.thecomingattack.com/russian-official-obama-is-a-communist-kgb-agent/

          • Angel Wannabe

            “Hear, Hear” JeffY__Good Link!

      • professor

        NC (of no consequence.)

        You have already been thoroughly “whipped upon” by more than one poster for your belligerent comments.

        But, I will tell you the same thing I told flashdancer…. You and your arrogant communist ilk contributed nothing to the making of this great country! All the prosperity and freedom that this country offers exists only because our European forefathers long ago rejected a tyrannical government….the same kind of government that you support.

        News flash, the Communists are “the moss-backed thinkers!” Your ilk believes in an OLD and FAILED ideology….yet, you believe yourselves to be “progressive!” What a joke! You want to bring back the PAST!

        Communism offers nothing that Americans want, and everything they detest. So, don’t count us out..

        • NC

          Professor. you must live in a paper bag! Hear nothing. See nothing and wake up in a different world everyday!We came out of the civil war a battered nation in 1865 and by 1945 we were the strongest nation nation in the world! This was done with just two major political parties! I have shown you figures of what the market has done under my Democrat Party so why don’t you supply me some figures to show that ANY OTHER GROUP has done any better!!!!

          RIGHT HERE IS WHERE YOU DO IT!! I’M WAITING FOR YOUR FACTS AND FIGURES! THIS IS JUST ONE COUNTRY WITH ONLY TWO PARTIES HAVING MAJOR IMPACT. WAITING TO HEAR FROM THE OTHER SIDE!!

          • professor

            NC (no account)….Forget it, I don’t except “assignments” from communists!

            You name ME a country where communism has made it free and prosperous!
            And don’t embarrass yourself by claiming that communism has had anything to do with making America great!

            Americans know what the illegal foreign “squatter” is doing, and they are mad! So, don’t kid yourself! You are wasting your time being here. Get back on your meds before those friendly men, bringing you a nice white jacket that ties in the back, can find you!

  • FreedomFighter

    Money is debt and debt is money:

    End the Fed, End payment for nothing, its all a fake to take hard assets from you, me and our children and to keep us all in perpetual debt.

    The Federal Reserve explained.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VBRZYrblZ24

    Laus Deo
    Semper Fi

    • 45caliber

      One real problem with the Federal Reserve – as Ron Paul has pointed out – is that there is not auditing. They print what money the American government wants printed – but how do you know what more money they print? Suppose they are asked to print one trillion dollars. But also supposed they print two trillion instead. They give the government the one trillion they asked for and send the other to their headquarters in Europe. The second trillion is then used to buy whatever they want in other countries as it is unlikely that enough of it will ever come back to the US to make a difference here. They are, in affect, stealing the money and the items they buy.

      So – let’s audit them. And then demand that any “extra” money that was printed be returned to us by their banking system. That would probably pay off our debt, among other things, right there.

  • Al

    Bob
    Very well put, but again you are looking at too small a vision. The Central Banking system is worldwide (Excepting Cuba and N. Korea) This system uses the paper fiat currencies of the entire world to RESERVE their rights to expand the Faux money (Credit) supply. Gold, Silver, Platinum, Oil, and other commodities is how the central banks keep score. The world wide fiat currency of choice is the US Dollar. Which the cbs allows to fluctuate with the other currencies based on the national debts of all countries. All nations peoples are enslaved to this system, not just ours. That is why Greek problems are our problems. Without this 400 year old practice (fractional reserve banking) the progress of the recent past would not have been possible. The use of frb and monetizing (creating faux money) the debt (confidence in each governments ability to tax or depreciate the currency for generations to come.) keeps the current system in play.

    Until someone creates a currency (SDR) that is based on a worldwide measure and freezes it there, there will never be a method out of this mess.
    Here are a couple of measures that might be used, but how???

    average hourly rate for a person digging a hole with a shovel of medium quality.
    British thermal unit of energy.
    Liter of salt water.
    Liter of fresh water.
    a bullet for an AK-47.

    • 45caliber

      Actually, they didn’t intend our dollar to be the stabilizing currency at this time. It was up until the Euro was created. The Euro messed up a lot of their dealing with European currencies the Euro replaced but it was supposed to be stablized so the dollar could fluxuate. Since the dollar was secure, it was worth a lot of real value but by letting it fluxuate they could buy and sell dollars against the Euro, their now stabilized currency. The only reason we haven’t gone the way of many countries around the world is that first, the people of the world still consider the dollar as stabile and secure money and second, they haven’t been able to stabilize the Euro as they had thought they could due to countries like Greece and Spain.

  • Buddy

    To Bob Livingston:

    Seems that this blog is getting like too many others where the comments just degenerate into name calling about opinions, etc. It might be productive to limit posting to, say, 3. Then, there could be some thoughtful comments rather than dozens of “you’re stupid” ramblings.

    Of course, you could say “don’t read them if you consider the comments a waste of time”. You’re probably correct.

    • FreedomFighter

      Where are your posts of worth, I am interested in reading your learned opinion?

      Also, I am interested in your view as opposed to “name” callers.

      Sometimes a spade is a spade.

      Thanks

      Laus Deo
      Semper Fi

  • DavidL

    Let me see if I understand your position, Bob.

    1. Income taxing on the state and local level is legitimate.
    2. Income taxing on the national level is illegitimate.
    3. Income redistribution on the state and local level is legitimate.
    4. Income redistribution on the national level is illegitimate.
    5. Mitt Romney is paying too much in taxes.
    6. Beardsley Ruml is your ideological source.

    Questions:

    How do you explain the legitimacy differences between state and local and national levels in government funding? Or is a VAT what you are prescribing on the national level?

    How do you explain the fact that in the summer of 1942, Ruml proposed that the U.S. TREASURY start collecting income taxes through a withholding, pay-as-you-go, system, and in 1943 Congress adopted the withholding system?

    • http://www.boblivingstonletter.com/ Bob Livingston

      Dear DavidL,
      You write: “How do you explain the legitimacy differences between state and local and national levels in government funding? Or is a VAT what you are prescribing on the national level?” State and local governments need taxes for revenue. They are unable to print money. I’m certainly not advocating a VAT on the national level. There is no need. As I pointed out, the government does not need taxes to function. If you could print money at your home at will, would you ever need to do anything else to acquire money?

      You write: “How do you explain the fact that in the summer of 1942, Ruml proposed that the U.S. TREASURY start collecting income taxes through a withholding, pay-as-you-go, system, and in 1943 Congress adopted the withholding system?” To understand this you must go back further. The 16th Amendment passed in February 1913, but the first tax bill did not arrive on Wilson’s desk until October of that year. This gave little time for Americans to cough up the money needed to pay their tax bill. Congress set March 15 as the date to pay taxes for 1913. If they were still unable, Americans were able to pay their bill in quarterly installments during 1914. By 1940, only 4 million Americans paid income taxes. In 1942, FDR had the personal exemption removed, subjecting 39 million Americans to income taxes. Roosevelt wanted that money right away “to fund the war.” He didn’t want to wait until 1943 to receive that money. So Ruml worked with Congress to push through withholding in order to satisfy his bosses, progressives in Congress and FDR. And they did it with trickery. They offered Americans one year (1942) tax forgiveness in exchange for pay-as-you-go withholding. FDR didn’t like the one year forgiveness, but since pay-as-you-go was acceptable to about 80 percent of the population if one year forgiveness was included, he went along with it. The elected crooks, of course, loved the plan because they saw that it would allow them to grow government even faster than they were already.

      Best wishes,
      Bob

    • professor

      DaveL, the power of government needs to be “decentralized!”

      “The squatter” in Washington is calling for more power to be centralized under his grasp….this cannot be allowed!

      The State and Local governments need to take back the power that has been usurped by the criminals in the Federal Government. Washington needs to be “purged” not given more power!

      If it were my decision, I would take the power FROM Washington to “Tax and Spend.” Without control of the wealth of the Nation, there is no power to be had, by Washington criminals!

      Each of the fifty States need to control their own taxes. Those taxes should be used to benefit the taxpayers and residents of each State. The people, themselves can decide what programs they want to support..rather than have it dictated by a group of criminals.

      Right now, it is important that big government be brought to its knees and told that it has over-stepped its power. Remind the government that it exists to serve the people. The people do not exist to serve the government! It is important for the existence of our country, at this point. So, yes, the States need to take the power back. Governors of these States have the power to solve our problems with this illegal and tyrannical government.

  • HKaufman

    This sounds more like Robin Hood with the sheriff of Nottingham tv series of years gone by.. That was Fiction,, But today ITS A REALITY….

  • M. Schwartz

    See my comment on term limits and campaign financing.

  • M. Schwartz

    To repeat: There must be two term limits for legislators, as there is for president.

    There must be severe equal limits on campaign spending, by individuals only.

  • 45caliber

    I would like to see all Congressional pay and benefits go back to the states to decide. Congressmen and Senators are supposed to be working for the states; let the states be the ones who decide what pay they are worth instead of Congress itself. How many places do you know that allow the employees to decide what they are paid and what benefits they will get?

    As Livingston said, Congress’s ideas of “cuts” and mine do not come close to being the same thing. Just because some Congressman comes up with a new agency or spending plan and agrees to “cut” five percent from the original plan of 25% increase in spending, I don’t consider it a cut. I consider it an increase of 20%. I want to see cuts to existing programs, a stop of some programs not yet implimented or only partially implimented, and a reduction of forces to the point where we do not need to borrow money to run at all. That’s called by some, at least, a “balanced budget”. Then I’d like to see enough other cuts to allow us to pay off our debt in a timely manner.

    Once it is paid off, then I will accept a return of some of what was cut – as long as it does not exceed a balanced budget.

    This should give us at least a brief time to determine what we actually need vs. what some politician thinks might be nice to get him reelected. When we pay off our debt we should have established that need and be used to living on what we make.

  • FreedomFighter

    Some say a picture is worth 1000 words this one is worth several trillion tax dollars:

    http://standeyo.com/NEWS/12_Pics_of_Day/120206.pic.of.day.b.html

    Laus Deo
    Semper Fi

    • Joe H.

      FF,
      100% pure golden!!!!

  • Steve E

    If we get rid of all of our socialist entitlements, we would not need an income tax.

  • http://ewebsmith.com/info Emmett Smith

    You can’t decide what taxes each class pays when the economy is not what it should be due to government intervention. That’s like saying what the temperature is outside by taking measurements inside with the heater on. You have to fix the economy before you can fix taxes so you know how big the middle class is, how much it makes, how how much taxes it pays. Unless, that is, you just want to get rid of illegal taxes all together.

    • Tom W.

      Hey Emmett, you aren’t the famous #22 are ya? But anyway, now there’s a thought!!!

  • Chris Schilke

    The truth about taxes. Even if you don’t pay income tax you pay corporate taxes and this fact isn’t due to American corporations. The politicians learned that most people who know nothing about business love it when the people scream for corporations to pay their fair share. Businesses can only remain in business as long as they successfully pass the cost of doing business on to the consumer and if not they go bankrupt and out of business. Part of the cost of doing business is tax and that gets passed on as well; it has to or the companies will lose money and go out of business meaning no jobs meaning less money to spend meaning other companies can’t sell as much and so on. What the unsuspecting public doesn’t realize is that all of those taxes are built into the products and services that they pay for only they don’t see the amount of this tax on their receipt as “corporate taxes” so they are clueless as to how much of the cost of their product is really a type of hidden tax that they go on to pay sales tax on.
    Talking about a scam and it’s the makings of the politicians that did it and corporations have to comply with the law. the most successful business that do this are the ones that are still in business. So, while you may scream “pay your fair share” you have to understand just who it is that you’re screaming that at. When you do it to corporations you’re asking to assume a heavier tax burden. Of course I don’t expect that the 95% of the non-business people out there will ever understand this. Think about it: any tax is added in like property taxes, added value taxes and so on. If people knew who was really responsible for this they’d take em out there and hang em.
    My point is that everybody who buys something pays taxes, that is those who work and earn a living. If you are on government assistance and you receive your living that way, even if they do take taxes out, you pay taxes because you can consider it to be that you just haven’t received that much. What you’re spending is tax money… or maybe not. Maybe it’s just worthless numbers and paper that you’re spending. Maybe if the public realized that as much as 35% percent of the cost of their products and services, before a sales tax of another 8,9 10 percent or more were added to the bill, were actually corporate taxes they’d have something more to say to the politicians about it. The joke is on us folks. I know that in some businesses that as much as 50 percent of the gross is paid in worker’s compensation taxes. You can say the this isn’t a tax but, a tax is a burden and that’s a burden.

    • Sirian

      Chris S,
      Very good points made here. I agree, so many people honestly don’t understand the number of “hidden taxes” that exist and they are unwittingly paying for. Especially the “COWS” – Crazy Occupy Wall Streeters. . . :)

      • Chris Schilke

        Yeah, thank you Sirain. I have tax problems so I’m very sensitive about this subject. Our ignorant ancestors allowed this tax system to be born and like all living things it only gets bigger and hungrier. What an appetite. It’s time to kill and butcher this thing before it grows anymore.

    • 45caliber

      Chris:

      You are correct. Too bad, isn’t it?

      • Chris Schilke

        Yeah 45 it is too bad. Ignorant people make ignorant choices and we are buried in a world full of ignorant things like property taxes. Those, like many of our taxes are only a way to separate the people from their wealth. Ignorant people let this evil system come to be. Now the powers that be will do everything to protect their own interests.

        • Angel Wannabe

          Chris S. Your are so right, that TPTB WILL do everything to protect they’re interest while they’re ruin ours!

  • Raggs

    Oh yeah we need to pay more so we can get a bigger govment…
    Yeah all of the do-nothing welfare programs ( as long as you were not born here ) Same song to grab votes… I don’t give a rat’s ass what happens to king oblama as long as he is gone next year.

  • MNIce

    Bob, I think you missed the boat on this one. Haven’t you ever hear the phrase, “Not worth a continental”? Under the Articles of Confederation, the Continental Congress did precisely as you suggest – it simply printed paper notes to cover the expenditures of the United States. Result: a major economic depression as people quickly realized their paper money was worthless. Those who had accepted Continental Dollars as payment for actual goods or services lost it all. The use of unbacked paper money to pay for goods or services rendered to the government is no payment at all. A note, at least, is a promise to pay “something” in the future.

    No, the answer is to cut the federal government down to the minimal size specified in the Constitution. The government, like any organization, should focus on doing a few things and doing those few things very well. There are 24 specific grants of power to the Congress in the Constitution, including the power to enforce three separate expansions of voting rights. There should not be hundreds of federal agencies; we can probably do very well with less than two dozen.

    The real question is, “How much government is really necessary?” I would suggest neither you nor I need $11,500 of federal government per year to keep us in line unless you are in prison.

    • http://www.boblivingstonletter.com/ Bob Livingston

      Dear MNIce,

      No, you missed the point. I have heard the phrase, and that’s where we are headed.

      Best wishes,
      Bob

  • Tazio2013

    $1,000,000,000
    The next time you hear a politician use the word ‘billion’ in a casual manner, think of this: A billion is a difficult number to comprehend, But one advertising agency did a good job of putting that figure into perspective in one of it’s releases:

    A billion seconds ago it was 1959.
    A billion minutes ago Jesus was alive.
    A billion hours ago our ancestors were in the Stone Age.
    A billion days ago nothing walked on the Earth on two feet.
    A billion dollars ago was only 8 hours and 20 minutes, at the rate the U.S. government Is spending it.

    While this thought is still fresh in our brain, let’s take a look at New Orleans. Louisiana Senator, Mary Landrieu (D), is asking Congress for 250 BILLION DOLLARS to rebuild New Orleans. What does it mean?

    Well…If you are one of the 484,674 residents of New Orleans (every man, woman and child), You each get $516,528. Or…If you have one of the 188,251 homes in New Orleans, your home gets $1,329,787. Or… If you are a family of four, your family gets $2,066,012. Washington, D.C., HELLO! Are all your calculators broken??

    Building Permit Tax, CDL License Tax, Cigarette Tax, Corporate Income Tax, Dog License Tax, Federal Income Tax, Federal Unemployment Tax (FU TA), Fishing License Tax, Food License Tax, Fuel Permit Tax, Gasoline Tax, Hunting License Tax, Inheritance Tax, Inventory Tax, IRS Interest Charges (tax on top of tax), IRS Penalties (tax on top of tax), Liquor Tax, Luxury Tax, Marriage License Tax, Medicare Tax, Property Tax, Real Estate Tax, Service charge Tax, Social Security Tax, Road Usage Tax (Truckers), Sales Tax, Recreational Vehicle Tax, School Tax, State Income Tax, State Unemployment Tax (SUTA), Telephone Federal Excise Tax, Telephone Federal Universal Service Fee Tax, Telephone Federal, State and Local Surcharge Tax, Telephone Minimum Usage Surcharge Tax, Telephone Recurring and Non-recurring Charges Tax, Telephone State and Local Tax, Telephone Usage Charge Tax, Utility Tax, Vehicle License Registration Tax, Vehicle Sales Tax, Watercraft Registration Tax, Well Permit Tax, Workers Compensation Tax. (And to think, Americans left British Rule to avoid so many taxes)

    Not one of these taxes existed 100 years ago…And our nation was the most prosperous in the world. We had absolutely no national debt. We had the largest middle class in the world. And Mom stayed home to raise the kids.

    What happened? Can you spell: ‘REPUBLIKRAT POLITICIANS’ ?

    • 45caliber

      Tazio:

      Another number for you. If the government took every penny above $50,000 that any made a year as a tax, the entire amount would run the government for less than 12 days. That’s one reason I get a laugh whenever a Demo wants to “tax the rich”. If they can’t run the government more than 12 days with the money, what actual good does it do to tax them more than they are being taxed now?

      The government’s real wealth comes from the middle class – and every politician in Washington knows it.

  • Gerry

    I kinda like the idea of a nat’l sales tax in lieu of income tax. The more you spend the more you pay. Poor would not pay much because they don’t have much. Tourists would pay, drug dealers would pay, cash under the table workers would pay, illegals would pay,……..etc.
    The rich would pay their fair share for the fancy yachts and cars, and multi million dollar mcmansions.

    • 45caliber

      Gerry:

      Well … I assume you would be happy with an additional 20% sales tax on all the items you purchase? That is the minimum amount that the government would accept. 8-3/4% tax (what is here) is hard enough to figure when trying to buy something. While it would hit everyone, I’m certain that some politicians would be hard at work to exempt some groups, like those on welfare and those making millions every year. They do that now. I’d prefer a flat tax of 15% or less of everything. Actually, not long ago I saw an economist’s report that stated that 11% would be sufficient. But again, I’d expect the government to make it 20%. You can bet that they would take advantage of any such change to add as much tax as possible.

      • Chris Schilke

        Hey 45, does that 20% take the place of all of those corporate taxes also? Because if it does it’s a good deal. The cost of all of our goods and services would be far less than they are now and we all would have more to spend on things and this would stimulate the economy better than anything the bad old government could ever come up with.

        • http://PersonalLibertydigest Floyd

          If we get a flat tax the business world will never lower prices. every time taxes g oup corporate increases cost. Businesses do not pay taxes the consumer does. The !% pays 30% of taxes on 95 % of the wealth in America. The other 29% of real tax payers being people making above 20,000 a year pays the other 70$ of taxes on 5% of the wealth of America. The dollar amount paid by the 1% is far less on the dollar of the other 95% being paid on only 5% of wealth understand the poor are poor and the middle class pays the bill because the 1% population is able to negoicate wages and then invest on the sweat of the middle class. It has been said that greed is good because the farmer would not milk the cows if he couldn’t make a profit well farmers familys at best is lower middle class. The greed is when a product is manufactured for .30$ and sold for $5.oo that is greed The economics today is trickle down instead of supply and demand. Until Reagan introduced trickle down the stock market never got above 3000 and now wall street crys like a baby if it goes below 12000. If America wants to reduce cost of goverment then start by forcing corprate america go back to supple and demand by not buying anything that is not a real need ie no cable no cell phone no fancy anything onlu what is need to live and let Corporate America find buyers else where. This could be hard on buyers and producers but the Corporate world would sure enough stink after about 6 months of no real profits

      • Chris Schilke

        I was thinking that I wouldn’t have to file any more income tax returns under the system that you propose except that I’m self employed and right now the government has no way of knowing how much I need to pay unless I tell them. OH well, nothings perfect. I just have a hard time receiving my money then turning it over to the buggers.

  • Michael O’Hara

    This rant doesn’t add up to anything of substance. This guy should put forward a detailed alternative budget which would identify the things he thinks a national government should spend money on and the specific sources of that money.

    • Nadzieja Batki

      Where have you been? This site has covered the ins and outs of our economic system in every imaginable detail.
      We ask that the government follow the Constitution. The government is not Mommy Care.

    • DaveH

      Feel free to do so, Michael.

  • Deerinwater

    My,My My?

    Are these crafty suns of a beaches good! these bankers have us killing each other!

  • Thinking About

    Since Bob mentioned Ron Paul was going to cut spending by $1 trillion, I wonder if he is going to recall the earmarks he has attached in his years as a representative. Also to show good faith he should refund for his business class air tickets. His excuse is he might have to make changes in his travel plans, it would be cheaper to purchase another coach class ticket. His spending cuts should begin with himself and then present spending cuts for everyone else. He is in the game like all the others.

    • Joe H.

      TA,
      Ron Paul has already stated that he would cut his own pay by 1/3!!! Which one of your heroes would do that??? Seeing as he has a RECORD of KEEPING his word, I believe he would do what he says he would!!

  • Tom W.

    This blast from the past is for all my NE Patriots fans, please check;

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KjekgRPpF_w

    Was that a trip in the cool ole’ time machine or what?!! One can only imagine what it must be like to be the reigning King of NYC!!! Good job Giants! Go Big Blue!!! KING ELI RULES!!! Ice water for blood must be a family trait among them Manning boys! Awesome job Archie!!!

    • JeffH

      Tom, great game wasn’t it…I’m an old die hard Raider fan but I’ve always liked Peyton in Indy and even dreamed of getting Eli in Oakland…oh well…big Eli Manning fan too and was happy to see he’s turned out to be the great Q’back he is. Congrats to the NY Giants!

  • http://www.americanpatriotparty.cc RichardTaylorAPP

    SPECIAL REPORTS #5

    TAX BURDEN

    Understand this. This is a Lesson.

    1.) FAIR = JEALOUSY

    2.) It is NOT about WHO pays the tax;

    …. But it is WHAT the tax is paid “FOR”.

    To illustrate why any tax that uses “fairness” i.e. “Jealousy” to tax the wealthy, simply taxes the POOR harder and keeps them poor;

    as well as eventually financially enslaves them.

    First you need to recognize your ENEMY, and that enemy is “YOU”.

    1.) Ignorance
    2.) Jealousy

    Now to recognize it in yourself, I will make you not only jealous of me, I will make you hate me.

    First I will tell you I am rich, filthy rich (I am not, but that is what I’m using to make you recognize jealousy i.e. your worst enemy which is YOU).

    Next, I will make you hate me: “You miserable pathetic poor person! I have everything I want! EVERYTHING! More Money, Cars, big house(S), boats, I’m always on vacation because I never need to work! I make so much money! HA HA but YOU! You pathetic little poor person, you will always be poor! Working for little to nothing! What is more, you will never get my money! Because I am RICH! HA HA RICH! And I will keep you poor by being so RICH! I will pay you nothing just so to KEEP YOU POOR!”

    Feel that little enemy called “Jealousy”? good.

    Now let us examine why taxing because of jealousy of the wealthy will never work, and why taxes need to be directed at what a tax is “FOR”; and

    Why taxing the wealthy only taxes the poor by passing on the “BURDEN” of the TAX:

    View remainder of article in full at American Patriot Party .CC front page, Special Reports #5 at far right.

  • http://PersonalLibertydigest Floyd

    The poor rich they pay 30% of taxes yes on 95% of the wealth in America surprise. Then 29% the middle Class pays 70% of taxes on 5% of the wealth of America because over 68% of Americans work of minmum wages or less surprise. The wealthy protect corporate America because they make more money on investment then on working like real pople. It has been said that greed is good because that makes people go the extra mile to make a dollar NOT greed is when a person that makes more money then we pay the qorlds most powerful man on earth and then wants to protect his money from taxes even if his back bone being the people that makes his money lives in poverty.

  • Chris Bales

    I’m so sick of hearing about a flat tax. That is just another way to give rich people a tax break. LISTEN UP ALL OF YOU…I MADE LESS THAN $40,000 AND PAID TAXES AT MITT ROMNEY’S RATE SO THIS IS ALL CRAP. I pay taxes and so does anyone who buys anything. The wealthy should pay more in taxes, the government does need money to run, these “elites” were elected by us, the boogeyman does not exist, the sky is not falling and in 5yrs we will all be spending over our heads again. BETCHA.

  • Charles

    Just look at the outright extortion being committed by the state of Illinois. They have decided they can extort money from anyone in the country. It is not necessary that the victim ever lived or worked in Illinois. It is not necessary for the government to prove the victim is guilty of anything. The government want the money and will get it.

  • Raymond Carl

    Our written Constitution “checks” the powers of the federal government by carefully delineating and specifying the powers of each branch. If the Constitution does not grant the federal government power to perform a particular activity, the government cannot legally perform it: “The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states respectively, or to the people” (Amendment X of the Bill Of Rights) This must be an important point when any discussion of taxation arises. Sadly today such is not the case. Obviously, all levels of government need money to operate and scripture tells Christians to be willing to pay the taxes due them (Romans 13:7). The question arises: What is due them? Our forefathers drafted a Constitution making such things clear so that the people would not allow the government to become absolutist or dictatorial through taxation and confiscation of private property. There is no provision for the federal government to redistribute wealth from one group of people to another, this type of power is exactly as stated in the Marxist-Leninist objective “from each according to his ability; to each according to his need” (Karl Marx, The Communist Manifesto, pp.54-55). If the people of this great Nation do not speak up and demand that our elected representatives uphold the Constitution then surly our freedoms as individuals will be continually eroded until no one will be free! Karl Marx advocated redefining “general welfare” to mean wealth redistribution in order to gain support from the masses in order to establish an overthrow of the then existing government under the guise of implementing a graduated personal income tax which he said would be a prime means of making despotic inroads on the rights of property ( Res Publica, p.89). In the Supreme Court Case, M’Culloch vs.Maryland, then Supreme Court Justice John Marshall said: “The power to tax is the power to destroy; that the power to destroy may defeat and render useless the power to create; that there is a plain repugnance in conferring on one government a power to control the Constitutional measures of another…” Our government is today already on the socialist path to self destruction, only “We the People can change this, but it will take more than armchair enthusiasm, and half hearted complaints. Tell your Congressman and Senators in no uncertain terms that you are angry and demand that Congress uphold the Constitution regardless of the political opposition.

  • http://www.americanpatriotparty.cc RichardTaylorAPP

    A very good post Raymond; If more people (especially Christians) understood that they are not required by Constitutional Law to pay any unlimited tax placed upon them, but that the federal government under the powers granted to them by the Constitution allowed the federal government under the General Welfare Clause to only to collect taxes for TWO THINGS ONLY, 1.) PROVIDING FOR THE NATIONAL DEFENSE and 2.) PAYING FOR THE NATIONAL DEBT. Nothing Else;

    Then those that are “so concerned” about their duty to the words of the Bible would see that in fact they ARE NOT ABIDING BY THE LAW when they pay taxes for anything other than these two things;

    By paying taxes on anything else, they are in fact going AGAINST OUR LAWS.

    Here is the foundation by the founders own words:

    VIRGINIA RATIFYING CONVENTION 6-16-1788
    Read in Full on the American Patriot Party
    http://www.pacificwestcom.com/americanpatriotpartynewsletter

    Mr. GEORGE NICHOLAS, “in reply to the gentlemen opposed to the clause under debate, went over the same grounds, and developed the same principles, which Mr. Pendleton and Mr. Madison had done. The opposers of the {443} clause, which gave the power of providing for the general welfare, supposed its dangers to result from its connection with, and extension of, the powers granted in the other clauses. He endeavored to show the committee that it only empowered Congress to make such laws as would be necessary to enable them to pay the public debts and provide for the common defence; > that this “GENERAL WELFARE” was united, “NOT” to “the general power of legislation” (think about that), but to the >PARTICULAR power> of laying and collecting taxes, imposts, and excises, for the PURPOSE of paying the DEBTS and providing for the “COMMON DEFENCE”, that is, that they could raise AS MUCH money as would pay the DEBTS and provide for the “COMMON DEFENCE”, in “CONSEQUENCE OF THIS POWER”.

    The clause which was affectedly called the “sweeping clause” contained “NO new grant of power”.

    To illustrate this position, he observed that, if it had been added at the end of every one of the enumerated powers, instead of being inserted at the end of all, it would be obvious to any one that it was “NO” augmentation of power. If, for instance, at the end of the clause granting power to lay and collect taxes, it had been added that they should have power to make necessary and proper laws to lay and collect taxes, who could suspect it to be an addition of power? As it would grant “NO” new power if inserted at the end of each clause, it could NOT when subjoined to the whole.

    He then proceeded thus: But, says he, who is to determine the extent of such powers? I say, the same power which, in ALL well-regulated communities (APP: COMMUNITIES, COUNTIES, STATES), determines the “extent” of “legislative” powers. If they EXCEED these powers, the “JUDICIARY” WILL declare it “VOID”, or else “the PEOPLE” (EACH COMMUNITY) will have a “RIGHT” to declare it “VOID”. Is this depending on any man? But, says the gentleman, it may go to ANY THING. It may destroy the trial by jury; and they may say it is necessary for providing for the general defence.

    The power of providing for the general defence ONLY extends to raise any sum of money they may think necessary, by taxes, imposts, But, says he, our only defence against oppressive laws consists in the virtue of our representatives.

    This was “misrepresented”.

    If I understand it right, NO “new” power can be exercised.

    As to those which are actually granted, we trust to the fellow-feelings of our representatives; and if we are deceived, we then “trust to altering our {444} government”. It appears to me, however, that we can confide in their discharging their powers rightly, from the peculiarity of their situation, and connection with us. If, sir, the powers of the former Congress were very inconsiderable, that body did not deserve to have great powers.

    It was so constructed that it would be dangerous to invest it with such. But why were the articles of the BILL of RIGHTS read? Let him show us that those rights are given up by the Constitution. Let him prove them to be violated.

    He tells us that the most worthy characters of the country differ as to the necessity of a bill of rights. It is a simple and plain proposition. It is agreed upon by all that the people have all power. If they part with any of it, is it necessary to declare that they retain the rest? Liken it to any similar case. If I have one thousand acres of land, and I grant five hundred acres of it, must I declare that I retain the other five hundred? Do I grant the whole thousand acres, when I grant five hundred, unless I declare that the five hundred I do not give belong to me still?

    It is “so” in “this case”. After granting some powers, the rest must “REMAIN” with “the PEOPLE”.”

    If Christians read the documents that define the words in the constitution, they would know they are not breaking the law but UPHOLDING it when they did not pay taxes outside these “two things” and would do so;

    Along with feeling obligated to run for office to enforce the limits upon the federal government, vote for those with strict Constitutional will power and put their foot down in presenting this fact to those who are suppose to know the limits to our laws regarding taxation.

    American Patriot Party

  • David

    Why would anyone want to reward mobsters in Washington with new taxes form anyone. The question should not be who the government should be taxing or issuing fines to buy why and do you trust them with more of your money or anyone elses.

    Why do people constantly want to reward the government by pitting one groups wishes against another and trying to get someone else to pay more taxes to a bunch of gangsters. The government wins every time no matter who the players are wanting some new law to stop something someone else is doing.

    Every time governments make new laws they get to hire more people at the tax payers expense to enforce them and collect the fines another tax. When is enough enough? Were all being scammed in the name of what is good for us. Wrong. The FED in 1913, then social security, then health care for all, spying on us so they can stop fake bad guys with some new false flag event.

    Wake up they are trying to play us and they are doing a great job with the dumbed up masses and those at the trough. I was told by a tax attorney that there is no law on the books that require you to even file a tax return. It’s all voluntary and great way to collect info about everyone and now they have FaceBook to help them spy on all of us.

    When you think about what does government really do for us at the federal level. Think about the services we need from government a collective force. National defense, US mail and that is about it. The rest can be done by the states and most of that is a waste like paying every year to register your car.

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