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The Teachable Moment

February 22, 2011 by  

The Teachable Moment

Welcome to Madison, Wis., the capital of Cheesehead Country. Sorry about the mess.

Backed by money, volunteers and rhetoric from Democrats ranging from the ill-kempt professional protestor types all the way to President Barack Obama himself (“assault on unions”), the far left is out in force in Wisconsin’s capital bearing placards ranging from the now-ubiquitous “Republican-as-Hitler” mock-ups to images of sniper’s crosshairs superimposed over Governor Scott Walker’s face. So… I guess we can assume that Obama’s calls for “civility” were more of a guideline than an actual rule.

Among the thousands of Democrats loafing, lollygagging and otherwise doing nothing productive — no, I do not consider making “Walker = Mubarak” signs in what appears to be crayon productive — is a sizeable contingent of teachers. Note I didn’t say TEACHERS’ UNIONS, although Big Labor has spent thousands busing in on-call shriekers to join in the Big Wisconsin Whinefest; I said “teachers.”

Despite averaging a little more than $100,000 per year in compensation, the stewards of Madison’s youth are taking a little field trip. Wisconsin public schools are currently sitting idle as a result of a coordinated sick-out staged by the teachers. According to local teachers’ union executive director John Matthews:

“We have only one day where we can make a difference, and it’s because of the ridiculous means by which the governor tried to shove this down the throats of public employees…"

Here I was under the impression that teachers are supposed to make a difference EVERY DAY. Evidently, that maxim gets defenestrated (find me a teachers’ union victim who knows what THAT means without a dictionary and two wrong guesses) when the Governor of Wisconsin asks them to cover insurance premiums at a still-paltry 12 percent instead of their current 5 percent. By the way, the 12 percent number would still place the exceptionally well-compensated Madison teachers in the best-covered 15 percent of regional employees. I suppose the teachers could figure that out, but that might require basic math skills. Perhaps the sick-out participants are all social studies instructors.

But the Madison teachers are doing a great deal more than simply walking out on their charges. They’re also indoctrinating them. According to Madison school system policy:

“…teachers shall refrain from exploiting the institutional privileges of their professional positions to promote candidates or parties and activities…”

It would appear Madison-area teachers were playing hooky the day they taught “rules by which you must abide to keep your job” in union school. These fine folk are also forbidden from taking a personal day with less than three days’ notice. And as far as tantrums go, wait until all the sick-out-ers find out that their paychecks will be docked for their fake sick days.

Some of the teachers did go the extra mile, taking Matthews’ suggestion that their hissy-fit provided what he called a “teachable moment.” According to one teachers’ union victim at Madison East High School:

“…some (teachers) were telling students they wouldn’t be marked absent if they walked out.”

Get ‘em while they’re young, right? Other teachers actually dragged their charges to the protests where the fragile youth acknowledged their guides through the pitfalls of academe had done just as good a job teaching them about labor issues as they have teaching them the three R’s. East High students acknowledged they had been brought along on the walkout, but with a government school understanding of why:

“…You know, I don’t really even know! I guess we’re protesting today!”

OMG! Our teacher is so, like, you know, kickass?

“Um… we’re trying to stop whatever this dude is doing.”

Totally.

The students are far from the only participants failing “outrank Albania in academic achievement.” Big Labor has developed some serious delusions in Madison. American Federation of State, County and Municipal Employees Local 2412 President Gary Mitchell actually thinks the kids are getting involved in the demonstrations because they just love their teachers:

“The students have been so energized…”

I’m sure the students are in no way motivated by the fact that they’re getting extra “make out in Betty’s basement while her parents are at work” time.

Former teachers’ union president Albert Shanker said:

“"When school children start paying union dues, that’s when I’ll start representing the interests of school children."

What happened to: “The children are our future?” Hey, Big Labor — you’re late for class.

Ben Crystal

is a 1993 graduate of Davidson College and has burned the better part of the last two decades getting over the damage done by modern-day higher education. He now lives in Savannah, Ga., where he has hosted an award-winning radio talk show and been featured as a political analyst for television. Currently a principal at Saltymoss Productions—a media company specializing in concept television and campaign production, speechwriting and media strategy—Ben has written numerous articles on the subjects of municipal authoritarianism, the economic fallacy of sin taxes and analyses of congressional abuses of power.

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  • s c

    Wisconsin, did those union rejects violate their contracts? Do union contracts violate state laws in Wisconsin? Do A N Y union teachers in Wisconsin send their kids to PRIVATE SCHOOLS?
    As for Wisonsin’s state legislators, let the SOBs and the rest of those geeks stay away from Wisconsin for six months. They are NOT needed. They are showing their true, anti-American colors.
    It’s time for the governor to put Wisconsin’s scumsucker legislators in their place – and OUT of a job. People of Wisconsin, here’s your chance to flush the toilets, and put people in office who are responsible leaders. Haven’t you had ENOUGH of people who REFUSE to honor their oaths?

    • home boy

      since the dems want to hide and not do their job the governor should announce that there will be layoffs but not 6000 teachers . make it 20000 and then you will see an uproar. also lay off the people that got jobs by the state senator’s for pay back. and don’t pay those senator’s for time lost . time to get down and dirty boys and girls.

      • Bus

        As the Democrat once said, “Ask not what your country can do for you…just demand more and more and more!”

    • Bud Tugly

      From the NY Times:

      In the face of protest demonstrations against Wisconsin’s new union-busting governor, Scott Walker — demonstrations that continued through the weekend, with huge crowds on Saturday — Representative Paul Ryan made an unintentionally apt comparison: “It’s like Cairo has moved to Madison.”It wasn’t the smartest thing for Mr. Ryan to say, since he probably didn’t mean to compare Mr. Walker, a fellow Republican, to Hosni Mubarak. Or maybe he did — after all, quite a few prominent conservatives, including Glenn Beck, Rush Limbaugh and Rick Santorum, denounced the uprising in Egypt and insist that President Obama should have helped the Mubarak regime suppress it.

      In any case, however, Mr. Ryan was more right than he knew. For what’s happening in Wisconsin isn’t about the state budget, despite Mr. Walker’s pretense that he’s just trying to be fiscally responsible. It is, instead, about power. What Mr. Walker and his backers are trying to do is to make Wisconsin — and eventually, America — less of a functioning democracy and more of a third-world-style oligarchy. And that’s why anyone who believes that we need some counterweight to the political power of big money should be on the demonstrators’ side.

      The strong anti-union sentiment voiced here is anti-American. e had a revolution to send home English nobility and their medieval sense of privilege. True, some unions have become corrupt, but many have turned the tide from workers being virtual slaves in unsafe conditions and in perpetual debt to the company store such as in coal mining. In the entertainment industry, unions are the source of stability for below the line workers who are exploited in non union productions (union labor on a typical movie is about 7% of the total budget).

      Unions have been a major factor in creating the American middle class. The vitriol against unions here shows ignorance of labor history. Remember the days of the robber barons when New England kids worked 12 hours a day in textile factories so owners could sail their yachts off Newport and give dinner guests pearls as souveniers as they sat in 500 pound bronze chairs gliding on tracks built into the floor?

      Is this the country you want to return to? Where a small percentage of our population has most of the country’s treasure in the name of free enterprise?

      Any civilized country needs the respect the value of labor and not just cater to the desires of the greedy few. It seems that many here have been duped by the rhetoric of the extreme right blow hards and have forgotten that our country was founded on respect for the common man.

      • Vigilant

        Talk about blowhards! The NY leftist Times so-called “journalists” don’t have a clue.

        Re: “Unions have been a major factor in creating the American middle class. The vitriol against unions here shows ignorance of labor history.”

        No sir, the vitriol against public “service” unions shows a very keen recognition that (2) they are overpaid compared to the private sector, and (2) IT’S THE TAXPAYERS WHO FUND THEIR PAYCHECK! If they had a scintilla of integrity, they would admit that the gluttony of these unions are becoming a major factor in DESTROYING the American middle class.

        And then, “Is this the country you want to return to? Where a small percentage of our population has most of the country’s treasure in the name of free enterprise?…Any civilized country needs [to] respect the value of labor and not just cater to the desires of the greedy few.”

        Better to have asked, “Is this the country you want to return to? Where a small percentage of our population, i.e., government bureacrats and public unions, has most of the country’s treasure in the name of free enterprise?…Any civilized country needs [to] respect the value of middle class tax dollars and not just cater to the desires of the greedy unions.”

        Bud, people like you who tout the propaganda of the NY Times most certainly do NOT have respect for the middle class, or American labor in a free (non Union shop) market.

        • http://naver samurai

          Well said, fellow patriot. Keep up the good fight! 하나님 하고 나라를 위해서! FOR GOD AND COUNTRY!

        • eddie47d

          Vigilante and Samurai: It may have been more relevant but it is full of holes. UPS (private company) pays their employees $4.00 an hour more than the USPS (government) folks who do the same work.Benefits are about equal(time off,sick leave, health, ect.) So show me where private companies get paid less than government workers for equal work.

          • Robin, Arcadia, IN

            eddie…. one example? Doesn’t prove a thing!

          • Vigilant

            eddie, until you source your assertions, you will receive no reply.

          • Vigilant

            eddie, show me one private company fully funded by the taxpayers.

            You lefties are still in a state of denial. It’s the public unions which are bankrupting the states, NOT the businesses.

          • Vigilant

            And, by the way, it was the UNIONS that bankrupted General Motors.

          • libertytrain

            apparently the Postal Unions aren’t doing the job that UPS does for its employees. :)

          • Biff

            It wasn’t just the unions that bankrupted General Motors, it was the crappy cars they designed too.

          • eddie47d

            It was the overpaid CEO’s at GM who took home too much of the companies bottom line. Greed kills and they proved it.

          • eddie47d

            Libertytrain,Things are fairly equal at both companies yet UPS still get’s $4.00 more an hour. So you think the Postal union should ask for more??

          • libertytrain

            I don’t know. Several Union leaders in NC were brought down for basic thievery a year or two or so ago. Multiple apartments, stealing union funds, countless other things. Hmmm. Maybe that’s where the $4.00 an hour went.

        • Warrior

          This guy Gov Walker, I like the kind of CHANGE he’s talking about. After receiving my latest property tax bill, I’m HOPING I will be able to stay in my home a couple more years. Oh, by the way, it ONLY went up 14% yr over yr and is now 135% higher than 7 years ago.

          Another good bit of luck earlier this year for me happened when the poser in chief agreed to that temporary 2% cut in SS withholding. Yea, that was great and lasted a whole three weeks before it was snatched up by that evil Gov Quinn who in turn found it necessary to hire more state employees. This whole socialist democratic patronage concept is working out just swell! Now, if we can just get this single payor system in place just think of all those new union nurses and practitioner’s can get signed up for automatic payroll deductions. After all, it’s about worker’s rights and those damn health care providers are not providing acceptable working conditions. Uh, oh, would that mean the cost curve would be bent the opposite way? Hmmm, might have to repackage this concept. I know, let’s make it an investment in the future of all the newborns. After all, they are the future of this great country and they’re the ones who are going to close this gap with other nations and bring about the ingenuity and competitiveness we are lacking. Oops, I sense I’m beginning to carry on like a politician. Gotta go now.

      • eddie47d

        Yes Bud,that is one of the counties they want to return to;where exploitation reigned supreme. Where they can make money no matter who get’s in their way. Remember when companies hired thugs to keep troublemakers out. (Those who needed a day off,or complained about their pay,or were too sick to work). Ahh! The good ol’ days.

        • Vigilant

          Yes, the good “new” days where union thugs beat up on Tea Party people, employ fraudulent and deceitful practices in tampering with voters’ rights, seek to deny the sanctity of the secret ballot in the workplace, contribute the union dues of non-Democrats to Democrat candidates, etc.

          Your union buddies are real fine people, eddie. Face it, there’s a reason May 1st is day of common ground for the Communists and labor.

          • eddie47d

            Vigilante; You have been full of it before and you are still full of it. Names and places where union members beat up Tea Party folks. How about some relevant proof on that deceitful voter fraud. Too many feel good innuendos coming from you and not enough facts.

          • http://! Angel Wannabe

            eddie____ a black un employed conservative attacked by SEIU thugs at a rally while selling american flags, his name was Kenneth Gladney

            http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zTXBOgPCh9w

          • Vigilant

            Thank you Angel,

            Mr no-source eddie (still hasn’t sourced his earlier claim) has the audacity to deny the common knowledge and well-reported incidents of voter fraud by ACORN. eddie, do you put your fingers in your ears and hum every time a piece of news doesn’t jibe with your leftist moral squint?

            YOU, of all posters, would do well to include sources with your outrageous and ludicrous claims, instead of accusing (Alinsky tactic) and denigrating anyone who doesn’t agree with you.

          • Vigilant

            Hey eddie, how about my other assertions? Are you so dense as to contradict that the “Employee Free Choice Act” would seek to deny the sanctity of the secret ballot in the workplace, and do you deny that union dues are used for political contributions regardless of the member’s political affiliations?

            Since you KNOW I’m right, I expect your cowardly retreat from those challenges, but I’d be interested to see your (factual) response.

          • eddie47d

            I agree with the Employee Free Choice Act and also union members usually know where their money goes in politics. So that is not an issue with me. Do you Vigilante put your fingers in your ears and hum everytime a piece of news doesn’t jibe with you view??

          • Jovianus
          • Jovianus

            Vigilent:

            You name one instance of voter fraud by ACORN, I’ll match you with voter fraud and intimidation by GOP supporter groups. I’ll bet I can outlat you in number of proven instances :)

            Of course, that hokie vid showing ACORN assisting prostituion will be tried to be used…but try again. That has been shown plainly and clearly to be made up and totally fruadulent.

        • JC

          “We are socialists, we are enemies of today’s capitalistic economic system for the exploitation of the economically weak, with its unfair salaries, with its unseemly evaluation of a human being according to wealth and property instead of responsibility and performance, and we are determined to destroy this system under all conditions.”

          Suits you eddie?

          • eddie47d

            That is exactly what the wealthy has done to America and little concern about those below them. Does that suit you JC?

  • Vicki

    Ben Crystal writes:
    “…images of sniper’s crosshairs superimposed over Governor Scott Walker’s face. ”

    Hmmmm. Wern’t the democrats/liberals really upset at conservatives for having crosshairs superimposed over voting districts? Not even people?

    Hypocracy, Thy name is democrat.

    • Jovianus

      Actually Vicki…they just showed on CNN not more than 5 minutes ago others in the crowd of those demonstrating against the anti union/anti working man legislation turning on those people ad having those signs torn up and trashed. Nice try to attempt to twist it around though. And why aren’t you decrying those signs other than pointing out they were being present? Do you support those types of placards if carried by someone other than a pro working man American?

      Interesting note as well. The anti union thug governor just stated he was concerned about those being bused in from other areas…failing to note they are pro anti union TPers from other states. The ones fighting for the rights of Americans in Wisconin are Wisconsinites. The anti union people have to have people bused in…not the pro American demonstrators.

      Third…it’s not about teachers though that’s the spin now being foisted by the Conservatives the GOP and the anti patriotic people.

      Fourth, last week the unions accepted the financial concessions..and the governor just stated he wasn’t giving up until their collective bargaining rights were ripped away, and he wouldn’t even talk to anyone but GOP legislators and anti union people.

      Fifth…The state would have a surplus except for tax breaks given for Big Business (no small business could realize any significant savings from the legislation) just two weeks ago.

      Sixth…this governor was once a DA. He came into office, tred to fire the security people, was rebuffed, then declared a “state of budget acrisis” and fired them all. Replaced them with Rent a Cops. Lower wages, some had criminal records etc…costs soared. Two years winding throught the courts and his moves were declared illegal as against collective bargaining rights and the state constitution. Not only were his stated savings unrealistic…it ended up costing more.

      Collective bargaining is a right enjoyed by working Americans for well over 100 years. This crisis we ar in nationally and state by state has nothing to do with state wages and salaries. Nothing. Yet the GOP spin is it’s a cure all panacea.

      So have low paid government workers, bribery and corruption returns, lower educated and trained…in other words, third world status. Yep…that sure is pro American eh?

      • lkar

        This is the problem with your liberal slant. If you disagree with the conservatives (who have been voted into office), then you throw a tantrum to stop the legislative process. I accept the points that you debate, but to have teachers shutdown schools, legislative representatives (Democrats)leave town to absolve their duty to the people, and to expect us not to point out the hypocrisy (tea party people also removed any derogutory signs but that wasn’t mentioned) is delusional on your part. The WI people voted for this legislative body. If they do not like what the results are, vote again when their term is up and get the laws changed back. Just stop the belly-aching and accept the process that has been set in motion from the 2010 elections!

        • Jovianus

          1. Walker did not state he would try and bust the unions in the state when he ran.

          2. The stated “reasons’ behid this legislation are bogus. To balance a bduget which the good governor created a deficit in two weeks prior to this legslation be proposed and then passed without public hearings.

          3. The “reasons’ cited…balance the budget…were conceded. But the governor for some reason says it isn’t enough the reasons given are now satisfied.

          4. The peple are showing, via demnstrations and walk outs…what public hearings would have disclosed…the people do not want this anti union legislation enacted.

          5. I’m certain if your state legislature passed draconian laws against the people and their rights … without public hearing or chance to amend…you’d be all hunky dory and accepting about it ….right?

          • Marilyn Slentz

            I guess by your spelling, your teachers were activist, maybe? Good article.

          • Jovianus

            Typos. In all likelihood, some of my teachers may have been activists…I have no idea. But if you want to match up degrees, I’m game :)

          • Brad

            Jovianus said,

            1. Walker did not state he would try and bust the unions in the state when he ran.

            2. The stated “reasons’ behid this legislation are bogus. To balance a bduget which the good governor created a deficit in two weeks prior to this legslation be proposed and then passed without public hearings.

            3. The “reasons’ cited…balance the budget…were conceded. But the governor for some reason says it isn’t enough the reasons given are now satisfied.

            4. The peple are showing, via demnstrations and walk outs…what public hearings would have disclosed…the people do not want this anti union legislation enacted.

            5. I’m certain if your state legislature passed draconian laws against the people and their rights … without public hearing or chance to amend…you’d be all hunky dory and accepting about it ….right?

            Answer to #1, The govenor is curbing collective barginning with this bill, it isn’t destroying the unions strangle hold, just putting some checks and balances into place.

            Answer to #2, You call the state having a 3.2 billion deficit a fabrication of the govenor, sir you need to find out how much the state is lossing in taxes, all taxes before posting it makes you look stupid, having no facts to back up your claim.

            Answer to #3, In this economy everybody pays the price, in your mind it’s the unions and their members who don’t have to pay, that’s where you are wrong, we all have to pay. In Wisconsin or the entire US we are going to pay for the democrats fat cat deficit spending for decades because china owns us, do your research.

            Answer to #4, You sir are talking about a small percentage of the state, let me get it right you want the moinority to rule over the majority, am I reading you right, well it doesn’t work that way. Wisconsin has spoken, the people want fiscal disciplin that’s the majority. Point two the teachers are protesting in direct violation of their contract with the state/school boards, I would laugh my azz off if they were fired for breach of contract.

            Answer to #5, Talikng about draconian laws, I live in a communist state with 90% of the state legislature controlled by the rats and 90 % of the states congressmen/senators are RATS. So where is the ballance of power, it’s one sided and you still don’t get it, we need a ballance, both side agreeing to work as one or else we all go down as the Titanic did. Right now the dems want to stifle free speech, becuase if you say something against them (rats) your either a racist anti-social in their view. Get over it, live in today’s world, the unions were good in their day, today they are money grubbing commies, hell bent on power.

          • home boy

            it’s obvious you are pro union . take a look at what has happened with toyota workers in this country with no union then look at gm ford and chrysler. yes there was a time that this country needed unions but in the last 30 years they have help this country lose jobs because of their greed. in new york city you can not build a building without the union involved to the point that the cost of any project will increase 20% because of the graff( pay offs). 10 year needs to go and so does the unions. nyc has 700 teachers that are payed not to work because they are a problem and backed by the unions. so the city is paying 1400 teachers to do the work of 700. they cannot be fired.

          • Cliffystones

            1.Turn on spell check.

            2. Turn on grammar check.

            3. Proof read.

            4. Rinse and repeat.

          • Marilyn Slentz

            My Daddy was bigger than your Daddy!!! LMAO

            You probably out smart me book wise, but I bet I out smart you “good” common sense wise :>)

          • Jovianus

            Answer to #1, The govenor is curbing collective barginning with this bill, it isn’t destroying the unions strangle hold, just putting some checks and balances into place.++++++ The ‘reasons’ for this draconian right restricting legilsation was for budget purposes. Those concessions were met. The remaining attack is on the right to collectively bargain as a unit. What checks and balances need to be in place? It’s called ‘bargaining”, not dictated. It’s an all out assault on the workers of this country…and you support that?
            =======
            Answer to #2, You call the state having a 3.2 billion deficit a fabrication of the govenor, sir you need to find out how much the state is lossing in taxes, all taxes before posting it makes you look stupid, having no facts to back up your claim.+++

            Errr…the budget was in the black until the governor gave tax breaks to Big Business (the small businesses receive little to no benefit from those tax giveaways). The state is now projected to have a $130 million deficit for 2011. All because of the governor giving away revenues. And he wants the people to pay for the tax breaks given to Big Business…
            ===========
            Answer to #3, In this economy everybody pays the price, in your mind it’s the unions and their members who don’t have to pay, that’s where you are wrong, we all have to pay. In Wisconsin or the entire US we are going to pay for the democrats fat cat deficit spending for decades because china owns us, do your research.+++

            They gave the monetary and benefit concessions asked for. They ‘paid the price’ yet their right to bargain collectively is being attacked. What “cost” is there to maintaining their right to bargain as a unit? Ummmm…none.
            ================

            Answer to #4, You sir are talking about a small percentage of the state, let me get it right you want the moinority to rule over the majority, am I reading you right, well it doesn’t work that way. Wisconsin has spoken, the people want fiscal disciplin that’s the majority. Point two the teachers are protesting in direct violation of their contract with the state/school boards, I would laugh my azz off if they were fired for breach of contract. ++++

            The voters were led to believe fiscal discipline was going to be implemented. Not giving away tax breaks to business…and then maing up the loss on the backs of the people. That is not ‘fiscal discipline”. Also…no where did the governor state he would go after the righ to bargain as a unit…until he gave away the farm to business and then, without allowing public debate, had this draconian legislation rammed through. No debate on this legislation, no pub,ic hearings…nothing. And btw…have you seen the polls on how Wisconsinites feel about this issue? Methinks the GOP legislators will turn…if they want to get re-elected.
            ===========
            Answer to #5, Talikng about draconian laws, I live in a communist state with 90% of the state legislature controlled by the rats and 90 % of the states congressmen/senators are RATS. So where is the ballance of power, it’s one sided and you still don’t get it, we need a ballance, both side agreeing to work as one or else we all go down as the Titanic did. Right now the dems want to stifle free speech, becuase if you say something against them (rats) your either a racist anti-social in their view. Get over it, live in today’s world, the unions were good in their day, today they are money grubbing commies, hell bent on power. ++++

            You have pubklc debate on issues. You have legilsative hearings on all bills. Can you cite one piece of legislation in your state where that wasn’t allowed? BTW..I know of no state having the communist party as the majority party.

          • Marilyn Slentz

            http://dailycaller.com/2011/02/21/wisconsins-teachers-make-a-little-more-money-than-theyre-letting-on/

            eddie47d,I believe if this wasn’t serious, I’d laugh at your comment. Pal, if the left didn’t have double standards, they wouldn’t have any standards at all!!!

            Angel and my fellow like minded people, I am moving on. Just dropped in to leave link. Know that you’re in my thoughts and heart. God Bless you and keep you from going insane with all the leftist rhetoric and spin Jovianus and his comrades dish out.

          • Brad

            Jovianus,

            Who left the legislature and fled the state, who left their teaching job to protest. Union backed Rats and union backed teachers/state employee’s. You still don’t get it, states are drowning in bad debt and it’s only going to get worse sooner or later states are going to file for bankruptcy protection. Then look what’s going to happen to their precious contracts, there gone out the window and many will lose their jobs, that’s what you want.

            Who creates jobs, the private sector does, I have never seen a poor man advertise job openings have you? When you cut taxes on business you tend to get business moving again inturn they higher more people and tax revinew increases. A win win for the state and business, when people have money in their pockets they tend to spend it on discretionary items, but today that money is being held and or economy is barely moving. Unions and big government aren’t the answer, we all need to live with our means, we need to quit being a nanny state. Some social programs are good others are bad and need to be cut, so what’s your solution to this mess or do you evan have one?

          • Jovianus

            Brad…the wages andbennies are not the issue in Wisconsin. So “cost” isn’t in the equation. Take that out of your argument.

            As for giving tax breaks to Big Business…errrr, they are awash in cash. So what would giving them more cash accomplish? And there have been a myriad number fo studies showing giving away the bank via tax breaks does not increase jobs unless they are costing more than creating.

            Oregon did that with a small company who stated they were now hiring 150 new workers paying them $20/hr average. Cost of the tax breaks and improvements? It pencilled out to $115,000/job created (that’s the cost to the taxpayrs every year for 5 years).

          • Brad

            Jovainus,

            I’m going to ask you the same question I asked eddie47d

            “Then explain why the teachers union and state employee’s union are up in arms over an increase to 8% for those contributing to their retirment. Then explain why they are crying about having their medical premiums increased from 5% to 12.6% out of pocket expenses. If the bill is passed the state picks up 87.4% of their medical premiums and there collective barginning only affects future pay raises”. By law teachers can’t strike and they can’t rightly stump for a candidate unless they are on their own time.

            I see you know vey little about business, what stimulates business? I’ll answer that for you, selling a product. Who buys said product, you and I do, that’s a give me, what happens when no one buys said product, the company looses money and eventually goes belly up.

            If a company is being taxed at the normal rate which is 35% and their product isn’t moving very well the state can step in to reduce their tax burden which will allow said company to lower the price on said product. Lowering the price allows john/jayne q public to buy more of said product creating a demand, because once demand overcomes supply our company will start to hire more people to compensate for the demand. Now in the mean time our company has other obligations, electric bill, gas bill, water bill, waste removale and the list goes on, then said company has to pay their stock holders. What about those bennies you had discussed before, that comes out of the company’s profits because they want to keep their tallent in house instead of them going to their company’s competitors to work. Finally a good company reivest’s a percentage of it’s profits back into it’s self, so where is your claim company’s are awash in cash?

          • Brad

            Jovianus,

            You stated this, “Oregon did that with a small company who stated they were now hiring 150 new workers paying them $20/hr average. Cost of the tax breaks and improvements? It pencilled out to $115,000/job created (that’s the cost to the taxpayrs every year for 5 years)”.

            I think your math is a little fuzzy my friend because the said 150 new workers are paying taxes and if said state taxes are at 2.5% that equals approximately 156K annualy for 150 new workers. That gives the state a gross tax receipt of 31K. No, there is no cost to the tax payer because the state has money coming in in the form of tax receipts which you neglected to mention. Try again

          • Jovianus

            “Then explain why the teachers union and state employee’s union are up in arms over an increase to 8% for those contributing to their retirment. Then explain why they are crying about having their medical premiums increased from 5% to 12.6% out of pocket expenses. If the bill is passed the state picks up 87.4% of their medical premiums and there collective barginning only affects future pay raises”. By law teachers can’t strike and they can’t rightly stump for a candidate unless they are on their own time. <— Brad

            Ummm…they said they'd meet those concessions. That's not the goal of the legislation nor the source of the protests of the working Americans who want to keep their rights intact.

          • Brad

            Jovianus said,

            “Ummm…they said they’d meet those concessions. That’s not the goal of the legislation nor the source of the protests of the working Americans who want to keep their rights intact”.

            Then what prey tell are they protesting about, collective bargenning, well they have it to include other reglatory agencies to call and e-mail if they find problems. Today we have so many government agency’s working for our safety and welfare all we have to do is pick up the phone. In today’s society we no longer need unions, they had served their purpose but if groups still want to organize into labor unions to bargan as a group, so be it that’s up to them. Today’s unions tend to corrupt for power and money, they have politians in their back pocket (namely rats) who encourage said civil disobediance. So since we are talking about Wisconsin, were are the democrat legislators at, I believe in 2012 some of those democrats in Wisconsin state legislature will be out of a job. Now lets take a look at apples and oranges, did the republicans run and hide when the democrats shoved obamacare down our throughts, nope, so why are the democrats running and hiding, seems they don’t like it when the shoe is is on the other foot.

            The governor want’s to keep his employee’s working to include the teachers, but if the bill isn’t signed by next week the governor has stated pink will be going out to 500 workers, is that what you want? I believe he’s trying to save jobs not cut them and at times it will be painful in a down economy but in time we will heal and money will flow again.

        • bob wire

          “This is the problem with your liberal slant. If you disagree with the conservatives (who have been voted into office), then you throw a tantrum to stop the legislative process.”

          What!!!!! so what is your nice Tea Party all about?

          Conservatives throwing a squaw eyed fit because they don’t agree with Democrat’s that were vote into office!

          Do you really expect there to be no fight from the opposition?

          That not the way it works my friend.

          This is am attempt to weaken financial support for the Unions across the nation or in other words a direct attack on the Democratic party.

          Have you not understood that yet?

          If the power of the Union can be broken in Wisconsin, it can be broken everywhere, leaving the RNC in a much better position come 2012 election.

          If you haven’t understood this yet, your grasp of the issues are greatly lacking and I’d encourage you to watch more then one channel or read one article.

          It is not necessary for you to “like unions” to see what is being played out here. It not even necessary to “like” democrats. You only need a open mind, full view and the compassion you might afford a stray dog.

          • lkar

            I do not think tea party candidates abjucated their office to stop legislative action. The process was protested, but the voted congressmen at least were present to vote!
            I am not against the protest or the debate. It is the derilection of duty!

          • lkar

            Derilection of duty by the Democratic lawmakers. If you disagree, vote the Republicans out! Did not happen in 2010! Try again in 2012.

          • lkar

            Also, the tea party protested Obamacare and the Democrats passed it anyway. 2010 was the consequences for their vote. As I recall, the Republicans that opposed were still available to debate and vote NO. I do not see the Democrats in WI present. You think it is alright to have your voted representative absent from the process? Their action is borderline terrorist tactic (note I did not call them terrorist, just their actions, or lack thereof).

          • bob wire

            As drastic as it may seem, it’s all a part of Parliamentary Procedure Sir.

            Much like the timing of laying this turd before the state assemble to where there could be very little review or opposition mounted in any meaningful way. The GOP is the last persons I would suspect to not understand the “buying of time” by disingenuous intent.

            A checkmate might well be Governor Walker to have with this issue , but it will not be today.

            Both parties will fight until the is a compromise or nothing left to throw.

            Myself, I agree that wage concession and this matter of unfunded pensions require address. However at this point it’s clear to anyone paying attention this is not what all this is about but something much grander.

          • lkar

            You are not getting it. There is no process when the lawmakers leave the state! It is the Democrats who left! I am not agreeing or disagreeing with the bill. It is a travesty that elected officials refuse to carry out their duty and leave town. One day may have been a statement of protest, fine. But, at this point, they are certainly in contempt of parlimentary procedure and must be held accountable for their actions to the people that live in their districts!
            You call the bill a turd, fine. Then elect a new majority in 2012 and rectify the problem.

          • Jovianus

            Ummm Ikar….the GOp and te Gov. said there would be no hearings, no committees, no amendments. It was take it and shove it. Not very democratic if one looks at the ‘process’ and ‘debate’ offered.

            If it was such a popular piece of legislation ad wasn’t aimed at busting the right to bargain as a collective unit…why weren’t public hearings offered up for the people to voice opinions ?

            you should ask that question…

          • bob wire

            lkar says:
            February 22, 2011 at 11:49 am

            “You are not getting it.”

            Oh I get it very well Sir, The honorable governor was using the clock, a majority and Parliamentary Procedure to slip through a fast one and deny opposition customary respect of Parliamentary Procedure and it’s backfired on him.

            The facts are, ~ the Wisconsin state congress has been left denied a quorum to continue until all matters of interest might be reviewed and discussed by all legal representation. (Something the honorable Walker was attempting to prevent from happening)

            Walker could have approached this another way, ~ but this is the way he choose and left opposite few options. There is such a thing as recalling a vote, ~ filing law suits, bogging matters up in court proceeding, it’s a long way from being over.

            The Honorable Walker has opened this door,! now whether he has over played his hand, ~ we have yet to see.

            My guess is, ~ Karl Rove has been very busy. As long as Karl Rove is active for the RNC, ~ They are just as dirty, mean and sorry has they ever were and the Tea Party in spite of all good intentions is little but a puppet for the puppet masters.

          • Vigilant

            bob wire,

            “Oh I get it very well Sir, The honorable governor was using the clock, a majority and Parliamentary Procedure to slip through a fast one and deny opposition customary respect of Parliamentary Procedure and it’s backfired on him.

            The facts are, ~ the Wisconsin state congress has been left denied a quorum to continue until all matters of interest might be reviewed and discussed by all legal representation. (Something the honorable Walker was attempting to prevent from happening).”

            My my! Shades of the manner in which Obamacare was passed! Now the left knows what it feels like, once the shoe’s on the other foot.

          • JeffH

            Vigilant, kudos, one also needs 52 cards to have a full deck also.

        • s c

          Ikar, in the matter of Wisconsin’s teachers, the root problem is the LUST for money and plush retirement(s). The FACT that Wisonsin’s teachers would rather picket and protest [instead of TEACH] says much about them.
          There is NO way they can justify what they’ve done. Any parent who condones their behavior is a sorry, rat’s patoot. Those incompetent, loser teachers must be FIRED. Do they really think they can’t be REPLACED?

          • http://! Angel Wannabe

            sc hey, like we said yesterday, Reagan fired the flight controllers_-I say
            Firem’ all, there is PLENTY of folks who REALY need a job to feed there families,I can pretty much guarn-dam-teya(guarantee), they won’t act like a bunch of spoiled brats either!

        • eddie47d

          Ikar; Like you have so politely accepted Obama as your President?

          • lkar

            Obama is the President! I just voice my concerns with his policies. You my sir are trying to obscure the topic of elected officials not performing their duty! At least Obama is present to be the president. Where are these vaulted Democratic lawmakers?

          • Vigilant

            The hens don’t politely accept the fox into the chicken house, nor should any American accept a president who is hellbent on destroying the Constitution.

            Ca. 700 legislative positions were changed from Dem. to Repub. in Nov 2010, the House went to the Repubs in record numbers, but the left still can’t believe the electorate wants a change from the bankrupting, self-serving practices of the socialists.

            And, as has become increasingly clear, the Dems would rather circumvent the legislative process than submit legislation to the mechanics of of our Republic. When they don’t have enough votes to carry or kill a bill, they pick up their marbles and leave in a huff. Despicable!

      • http://! Angel Wannabe
        • Jovianus

          Your point being?

          • http://! Angel Wannabe

            Jo_ Your crying corruption, unfair,_Walker never said he was Union Busting, what he said was, that he’d cut costs, too bad if the Unions are part of that.
            We all gotta hunker down was swallow hard times, none of the rest of us aren’t in the streets protesting, because our cozy way of life is threatened!__and BTW_ I worked for the Ladies Garment workers Union in my youth, and my husband was in the UAW!__That doesn’t mean we liked what they stood for and OH, my half sister was a teacher!__The only time I saw the Union do ANYTHING is to get someones Job back, thats been fired, usually because they were drunk on the job!___Don’t wah wah wah to me about Unions, I know too well!!!!!

          • bob wire

            “Walker never said he was Union Busting, what he said was, that he’d cut costs, too bad if the Unions are part of that.”

            with all respects Angel, ~ you and I both know, how politicians work. Stated Reasons and true intent to be found miles apart.

            If it was as he suggest, Walker has been offered the pay concession that he was asking for but the Union is not going to roll over and play dead for him or anyone else. That Walker has not ask this of all state unions, do you wonder why?

          • http://! Angel Wannabe

            Bob wire__ and you think its all right, for the high Unions Demands, to contribute to running a business in to bankruptcy?___people don’t just start a business to provide jobs, that’s how it ends up when the business grows!_The business owners take the risk, by hiring us!!!__No one says boss’s have the right to whip the backs of they’re employees, but those days are loooong over and are not coming back!__and to answer your question, I have NO idea what is in the mind of Walker, he said he wanted to cut costs, NONE OF US HAS TO LIKE IT and some of us are gonna get HURT by it____COST CUTTING HAS TO START SOMEHWERE!__But the unions are the only ones in the streets protesting it!!!!!

          • bob wire

            Hmmmm? how many times must it be said before you hear it?

            The Unions have AGREED to the proposed wage concessions!

            If the all wise, all knowing Honorable Governor Walker was asking a “selected group” of “LABOR” to shoulder a shifted burden to offer tax breaks to Big Business with only dreams of job creation while not assured or promised, he has been promised “by Union Members” to RECEIVE union cooperation.

            I’m not arguing or defending the “OVER PAID” ~ so don’t expect one forth coming from me.

            Now if we could get some bankers, CEO’s ,Wall street middle men, state and Capital Hill elected official to accept similar wage and retirement concession, with “DREAMS” of economic growth that “MIGHT” follow, I think we “MIGHT” have something that we could all celebrate.

          • http://! Angel Wannabe

            Bobwire_-In all do repsect, I remember YOU said YOU Owned a Business???___I think you’ve stretched the truth, if not your not gettin what I’m sayin, about business!!!?

        • http://! Angel Wannabe

          Jo and yet another link,

          http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5pDy3cvzDHs

          If the tea party conservatives would have pulled these stunts and carried all the signs, they had been chastised and Ed Schultz, would’ve had a coronary instead of friggin tingle up his leg.

          • Jovianus

            Doctors meeting with people, assessing medical conditions, and giving medical notes. Your point being?

          • http://! Angel Wannabe

            jo, yeah_Er_ (tongue in cheek) I didn’t know Wisconcin had any recent natural disasters, that the doctors have to hold office visits in the middle of the street___I just gotta ROFLMAO!!!!! :)
            Oh the stress, Oh the pain___LOL

          • Brad

            Jovianus,

            It’s called medical malpractice look it up, you just can’t give a doctor’s note to a stranger without knowing the patients medical history, it’s also an ethics vilation. I hope the state medical board takes actions against these so called doctor’s.

          • Marilyn Slentz

            Angel, you rule!!!! :>)

            As a Tea Party person, I’ve witnessed the double standards the lame brain media has done with this story. We were called everything under the sun. Not only by the lame brain media but from leftie elected officials. There were a million plus (I know because I was there) demonstrating in DC against bo-care and bail-outs in 2009. We were slandered by the above mentioned, yet there is no proof of their lies. We have proof of their actions :>)

          • http://! Angel Wannabe

            Marilyn, I support the tea Party, but I’m not a active member, I work and have my Grandkids most of the time, my hands are tied up right now, but I’m there in Spirit!!! ;) Besides__My mother always told me, “What Goes Around, Comes Around!” and now these particular lefties are gettin theirs!

          • eddie47d

            The Tea Party folks are the hypocrites if they want to express their views and change actions(way of doing business) by government officials. The turn around and mock others who are getting screwed by that same government.Your real motives are coming across loud and clear. Yesterday you all tried to compare these protesters to Cairo demonstrators in a mocking way. I think the comparison would be the pro-Mubarak officials who attacked those fairly peaceful demonstrators and revved up the violence which led to the deaths. In Wisconsin anti-union people from other states are infiltrating the protesters and causing trouble. The right is starting to get good at that and with the help of anti-union Koch money they may pull it off.

          • Jovianus

            Well stated Eddie.

          • http://! Angel Wannabe

            Yeah eddie 47d, Get rid of the 81 socialists in the Guv, and we’ll talk!_-You just keep supporting & giving money to a bunch idiots that are as about American as Gaddafi and we’ll be spelling America like Amerika. Man o Man why don’t you sheep wake up!__Your being used!

          • http://! Angel Wannabe

            Hey Brad, UPDATE as per Fox News , and Investigation is being launched into the pratice of Doctors handing out “sick notes at the Wisconcin Rally”?!

          • Brad

            Angel,

            That’s grate news, we’ll see how far that goes, I just hope those performing the investigations have a back bone.

          • http://! Angel Wannabe

            Brad, Me Too!

          • eddie47d

            Wow; The Doctor slip police. Maybe it’s a good thing a few are willing to make “house calls” and are giving instead of gouging.

          • http://! Angel Wannabe

            eddie__ that was so lame its not worth a retort!

          • eddie47d

            I forgot you rather gouge than give.

      • DOGS FIGHT

        Sorry, but $100,000 plus a year for teaching kids is too high. That salary is appropriate maybe if you are the head principle or vice principle… For every job like that, probably 2-3 private jobs have to be sacrificed from the taxation necessary for that. You do have a point when you talk about exceptions given to big businesses and not small business. As a libertarian, I fully see the evil of too much power accummulated anywhere whether its powerful businesses, powerful government, or powerful union bosses. Big business is as much to blame if not more so than big government for America’s problems… If taxes get too high, big business just lobbies for tax breaks or failing that, they just ship jobs to India or China and pay slave’s wages. The Free Trade move over the past few decades has done more to really destory America than through any other thing. Decring against big business is something that is woefully absent from the RETARD-icans.

        • Jovianus

          Ummm…only Crystal in an apparent drug induced fantasy is stating the teacher salaries in Wisconsin are $100,000. Sorry to burst that bubble…

          • s c

            J, she isn’ that far off. Sorry to bring you down from that drug-induced, progressive high. When you dare to include ‘bennies’ and retirement, those union “teachers” are more like Bolsehvik parasites.
            Just because Lenin and Marx would be proud of such losers doesn’t make them upstanding citizens, dude.

          • Jovianus

            What’s ‘not far off” ? Iclude my bennies in my comp plan and it’s seemingly much more “annual income”. Yet..the paycheck remains the same. Bennies are measured subjectively under any formula.

            Put in a public health plan option and then take it out of my comp plan (I am not union BTW…though the ones I supervise have the choice of union or not. And ALL take full advantage of the collectively bargained for rules)

            Public option..I have the option, my employer saves money and the health insurance oligarchy gets to revamp its business practices to be competitive in the marketplace. Win win all the way around.

          • http://! Angel Wannabe

            jo, teachers salaries are up there, a year before my half sister retired she was making $81,000 at 38 years in, and I’m damn sure the Unions were sorry to see her go, they made money off of her!!!

          • Jovianus

            Angel…after 38 years, what should her earnings have been? Just curious to see what you consider “fair’ for having 38 years experience as a professional. And…would she agree with you ?

          • http://! Angel Wannabe

            Jo, I haen’t said ANYTHING about who is worth what. for they’re time__what I’m saying is, The Teachers are NOT HURTING Financially BY ANY STRETCH OF THE IMAGINATION!__We the tax payers are, B/C we pay they’re salaries and ktaxes keep going up!!!___AndBTW, why is it So terrible they were asked to contribute to they’re healthcare–are the Teachers to GOOD for that?___Do they feel they’re owed something? The last time I checked, the only thing still free, is the air we breathe!_-And another thing, with the Unions perks, I see NO DAMN REASON at all that they should be allowed to strike!!!___ Wah Wah Wah, I’m not getting my own way so I’ll throw a temper tantrum until I do!__ Git on your hoss and ride the hell outta dodge JO, your argument is ridiculous!!!

          • libertytrain

            I don’t think it’s so much what the teacher’s earned that is the problem but that so many of our kids are not educated. So does the pay they receive merit the work they put in? Many factors are at play in education today. I know some good teachers. I also know what they can or can not do because of the “rights of kids.” Parents that do not support what the teacher does, etc. I think there’s more broken than just the pay. And I do believe there are a lot of crappy teachers but perhaps they were broken by having their hands tied constantly.

          • http://! Angel Wannabe

            Libertytrain, I said something similar on another post, there is NO ONE home with these kids today, there mainly in daycares. Being exposed to pre-programmed thought & opinion. By that I mean, if one baby needs a bottle, they all get one!__
            A lot of These kids aren’t getting home support, so they wind up not caring, and the teachers can’t teach, if the students aren’t willing to put the time in,too learn.

          • libertytrain

            I think this nation somehow really screwed itself starting about 1964 and it’s been a slow moving train gathering steam ever since. We are in trouble.

          • http://! Angel Wannabe

            Liberty Train, Your right the disintegration of a moral society has been moving for a long time!

          • http://deleted Claire

            libertytrain–I agree. I know I posted this a long time ago, but I have a friend that was a teacher. She retired early because in essence, she was a babysitter plus trying to teach and of course no discipline was allowed because the parents would raise heck. She also had to buy a lot of supplies out of her own money. She taught 3rd grade-4th grade. She also had parents complain about too much homework. The turnout for PTA meetings was next to nothing. She said the majority of the kids she taught had no manners and no respect for nothing or no one. And this was 10 years ago. I certainly would not want to be a teacher in this day and age.

          • libertytrain

            Claire, you’re right, in some areas, like here, teacher’s do not get great pay and have a lot of expenses for those supplies. But there are areas where teacher’s are paid very well. In any case, there isn’t enough money for me to want to teach today, especially with the limitations put on teachers and frankly, I’ve never been interested in being a teacher. I don’t know the answer, I am not sympathetic to the teachers in Wisconsin in this case and you know I’m from there. I also know many teachers there and they have a lot more benefits than those in these parts could ever hope to have. Tough call.

        • Cliffystones

          Dogs,

          I would normally agree, except that with inflation taking off that 100K is going to seem more like toilet paper than currency soon!

        • LES

          NAFTA was signed by Clinton and he still supports it.
          With today’s Taxes Regulations and Unions some companies are faced with a dilemma, stay here and be driven out of business or go overseas and survive. Either way the jobs are lost here.

      • Fact Check

        The ‘Low Paid Government Employees’? It is a Fact that Government employees make more on average than private employees. I work for a private company. I pay for the bulk of my healthcare in the private sector. I have no pension, I have to save for my retirement. The government employees pay much less (or nothing) for these benefits.

        Many of my co-workers have been laid off. My insurance costs are escalating. My company has frozen wage increases for 4 years now. I do the work of 3 or 4 people. My house is worth less than what I paid for it 8 years ago. My costs are going up. I cannot save enough each month to cover my retirement costs.

        I make less on average than employees in the public sector and I pay more for benefits. I pay taxes with money earned from the private sector.

        Government employees are paid 100% from the private sector. They make more on average than I do, they pay much less for their health insurance, they pay much less for a guaranteed retirement.

        So now am I supposed to completely eliminate my health care and my retirement and pay more taxes so the government employees don’t have to contribute more to their health care and their retirement?

        And I guess my ‘greedy’ corporation should start paying more in taxes. They will eventually go bankrupt or leave the country where they can make a fair profit. The government sector is bleeding this country dry.

        The government is BROKE, they spend too much now. Their overspending will eventually cause this country goes bankrupt. Then the government will be forced to live within their means. When this happens, the majority of your union friends will be unemployed and broke too.

        You cannot continue to spend more than you make. You will eventually have to accept the same consequences that the private sector has endured.

        The private sector pays for the public sector PERIOD. There is no more to give.

        Welcome to my painful realistic world. And thank you for supporting the Unions and huge overgrown wasteful government which has caused this horrific decline of America.

        • Jovianus

          Hmmm..sounds like you need collective bargaining as a unit. I’d contact my local union organzer if i were you.

          • s c

            You’re consistent, J. You sound as though you’re paid very well NOT to ‘get it.’ Whiz off, comrade. Your Lenin/Marx/Mao indoctrination is showing.

          • JC

            Right…we should all unionize…but then, who would be left to rob?

          • eddie47d

            Don’t Worry! There would still be plenty of bankers and corporate thieves who will pick your pockets.

          • JC

            Another circular comment from eddie…my goodness but you folks are blindly partisan. SAY ANYTHING to promote socialism right? Morons…

          • JC

            Actually eddie, considering your last comment, I have to ask,
            would you be in agreement with this paragraph?

            “We are liberals, we are enemies of today’s capitalistic economic system for the exploitation of the economically weak, with its unfair salaries, with its unseemly evaluation of a human being according to wealth and property instead of responsibility and performance, and we are determined to destroy this system under all conditions.”

        • TIME

          FC,
          Very Good post. Saddly the spolied rotten Government gang of THUGS I am 100% sure can’t quite grasp what you posted.
          Nor can these special UNION THUGS, who seem to be able to spend a whole hell of a lot of its members “RETIREMENT MONEY” to get Pubic Officials erected. Oh my did I say that? The horror, of the TRUTH!

          The only people getting hosed are the folks who work for either NO UNION type small business or those of us who are self employed.
          But hey we have all the money according to the special groups of worthless eaters and air wasters. How much do they pay Kaite Q again was that $13.900.000.00 per year?

          Strange how that works, you take you’re money and invest it in a small business. Yet somehow thats just not right to these special worthless eaters and air wasters who feel very strongly that we should just give them what we have earned. Why?
          So they can watch the Telie and drink beers. Yea thats just so special. BREAK UP all the UNIONS!
          Shut them all down they are nothing more than NAZI’S.

      • http://! Angel Wannabe

        Hey Jo_-This vid taken at the protest in wisc. sure as hell looks PRO AMERICAN to me TOO___Get a life!!!!____LOL

        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E1LeqQbf4Rs

        • Jovianus

          Gladdens the heart to see free speech practiced in a calm, cool manner instead of anger and wacked out ranting found at the usual TPer demonstrations and rallies doesn’t it?

          • Brad

            Jovianus,

            You can’t stand it when some else is right and you are wrong.

          • TIME

            What drugs are you on? I mean really, what drugs are you on?

          • Jovianus

            WHAT? I looked at the vid…saw peaceful, frank talk and debate. No gus, no threats, no scraming. You object to that? Or is it the fact that the demonstartions aren’t full of anger and rancor and wacked out screaming usually attendant in a Righty demonstration?

            What is your problem?

          • http://! Angel Wannabe

            Jo, ROFLMAO__Do you hear Laughter Pharaoh?

        • Cliffystones

          Angel,

          Maybe “Jo” is Philip Rearden?

          • http://! Angel Wannabe

            cliffystones__LOL!

      • Commonsense

        jovianus, the government and unions in our schools is why we rank soooo low in international gpas. Instead of trying to force someone to pay you more for mediocre job performance, go find a better job. See, that there is the kicker, even teachers today want handouts, instead of competition for good teachers in our schools, we have competition for stronger unions. The payer here is not only the taxpayer but our youth. Chant all you want about how tough they got it(union), but in the end it is people like you that are destroying America, our Constitution, and anything good and decent about living in the United States. The thought processes used by people like you are the same as the ones used by people who try to justify child molesters, lawyers and judges. Ech!

        • Jovianus

          I know…I know. The Dems, the unions, and the Progressives destroyed this country. That’s why we never were able to take on the Soviets etc. and have the highest standard of living this world has ever know for a society.

          Want to see the point of the declne of the Middle Class? look at the 80′s. Your daring reagan began the war against America…and you are the trooper.

          • http://! Angel Wannabe

            Jo and reagan Helped drop that wall too___but you seem to think its SOOOO Pro American for Known Socialists and Communists to Spread their damn doom at American Rally/Protest!__Your a Friggin Turncoat and an Idiot!___Go peddle your dam Communist crap somewhere else!!!

          • eddie47d

            Angel; Stop trying to be the censorship queen.Really gives you a very anti-free speech attitude. If the John Birchers or neo-nazi’s had a table set up would you condemn them or debate them?

          • http://! Angel Wannabe

            And eddie, I do and say whatever I please, your not the censorship boss either!!!!

          • 45caliber

            eddie:

            If it is censorship to stop communist teachers from teaching that cr@p to their students, then I’ll cheerfully become a censor. This is one of the reasons our kids aren’t doing that well on things like math and science; the teachers are spending too much time on teaching them things like communism instead.

          • eddie47d

            Prove that they are teaching communism over our Republic in our public schools.

          • eddie47d

            Angel; I never said anything about censoring you so you still didn’t answer my question.

      • Wandamurline

        If the teachers are unhappy with their jobs, and it seems that they are right now because they certainly are not doing their jobs, then they should quit and relocate to another state that will give them what they want. Unfortunately, all over America, states are going bankrupt and a lot of it is due to the unions…the unions have caused businesses to relocate in other parts of the world, thus, no jobs. All the teachers are yelling, but what is going to happen when there is not a job for them? You see, you must look further down the road than just this moment in time. If the state cannot overcome the deficit, then teachers will be fired and the leftovers will have 60-70 kid in their classroom to teach. Wouldn’t you love that? So, the very people out there wanting to rape the tax payers who have no bargaining rights and would get fired if they had done what these educators(?) are doing, won’t be too happy when the jobs run out and they are standing in the unemployment line. Something has to give, and the unions do nothing for their members except to use them to further their elists power at the top…don’t you understand? You (teachers) are the bottom feeder that passes most of the food to the top of the food chain (the top union leaders and the corrupt Democrats who are willing to take the money to stay in power). Even with all of your union dues monies, they did not change the outcome of the last election as the people in this country are now awake and off the couch and demanding that the government get back to where it constitutionally needs to be. Don’t be fooled … if the unions wanted to help its members, it would reduce the dues you pay to help offset the needed pain that all of us are going to have to bare if America is going to continue.

        • Brad

          Amen to that!

      • marvin

        Jovianus
        o union where art thy o work or get fired,this man was voted in by the people of the state ,so it is ok to stay off work have a liberal dr give you an excuss and flat out lie, is this someone that needs to be teaching, the man for a better turm el cid obama who by the way is suppost to rep all citizens not just black and brown and unions,is envolved to,big time,the unions are all corrupt,not the people,what happen to the steel mill the auto makers the goverments,the seiu don,t care if you are legal or not as long as you pay your dues,i live in a right to work state and no one here is trying to get the unions out,the goverment works for we the people not we the unions

      • peter robison

        Well said. Walker’s assault on the Unions and the middle class, is self evident, follow the money, and you will find he is financed by big business, who would like to see the end of Unions. He has also shown himself to be an incompetant administrator, what happened to the surplus he inherited. The GOP have a long history of Union busting. All of you GOP supporters, who are not multi millionaires, are helping the multi nationals destroy the American way of life, to your own detriment.

        • http://! Angel Wannabe

          Peter peter, How does your garden grow!___Wah Wah wah!!!__lol

        • lkar

          Surplus? What are you talking about? The Democrats were in control and left this mess. So in the spirit of Democratic logic, Walker should be blaming the guys that were replaced. Wait, that would be the Democrats. The same ones that do not want to do any representing of there districts as they are vacationing in IL.
          AS i have said before, 2010 brought them into power. If you do not like it, vote in 2012!

          • Jovianus

            Ummmm…there was no budget deficit in Wisconin until Walker came to office. In four weeks, he created a deficit.

            Think about that …

          • eddie47d

            Ikar would then have to put his thinking cap on.

          • Brad

            Just remember everybody Jovianus and eddie47d are mentaly handy cap’d for they know not what they say. One day when they are sitting on the curb homeless/jobless woundering what happened, then and only then is it going to dawn on them, they supported unions and democRATS.

          • eddie47d

            Brad the brilliant one! I’m retired and union member for 40 years and never saw most of the crap that gets spewed by the anti-union people. I had an excellent work record so until you know..don’t blow.

          • Brad

            Eddie47d said,

            “Brad the brilliant one! I’m retired and union member for 40 years and never saw most of the crap that gets spewed by the anti-union people. I had an excellent work record so until you know..don’t blow”.

            I can blow all I want, it’s called free speach eddie. Now you may have had an excellent work record but did the union pay your bills when you were sick or when you were laid off? Eddie I tend to stand on the fence and I look at both sides before I make any decisions and what I have seen/researched on all unions I don’t like them and what they stand for. What I see in todays union leadership, they are more interested in money and power. Eddie who pay’s their salaries, you did and so did all those union brothers and sisters with your/their hard earned money that you/they worked for, they haven’t worked a day in their lives (union bosses). Today most of your union bosses make six figures that’s 500k down to 180K, it depends on the size of the union and how much each brings in through dues. You pay your union bosses salary and you can’t tell him what you want him to do for you because he is busy buying politicians like BHO. That’s right BHO is in with the unions no matter how you cut it. It’s late and I’m done for the evening, to me you make no sence because you won’t look at both sides of the fence and make an educate decision for yourself, you have to look to the union for your answers, wake up eddie.

          • eddie47d

            Your not only tired but we are sick and tired of the lies that you spread as free speech. You are no fence sitter you are anti-union.

        • Ruby

          And what, pray tell, is the American way of life? Become a union member? NOT

      • Ruby

        Jovianus:

        There you go again: the “working man”,…”working Americans”. What does that mean to you? Anyone who works? Union member = working American? Please define what you mean when you use that phrase.

        I asked yesterday, and this morning, you had yet to offer an explanation.

        What is the rest of the non-union workforce of this country? Chopped liver? Oh, btw, the non-union workforce far out numbers the union workforce.

        • eddie47d

          The working man has traditionally been the blue collar worker and at one time they were in the majority.Now there are many white collar jobs who’s companies have saving plans and offer health benefits also. America transformed and gave some Americans a better life without unions.The companies took care of their workers and paid well up front. That is terrific but doesn’t take away the need for unions in many other job categories. Helping to level the playing field is hardly a crime and unions should be encouraged where there is a need. When all companies pay well then someday there won’t be a need for any unions. That day is not here yet. To answer your question better;anyone who honestly earns a living is a working man /women.

          • Ruby

            Thanks, eddie. I agree with your definition and have always understood it to be thus. However, Jovianus appears to be very pro union, and I wanted to understand where he’s coming from.

            I, too, was a union employee many years ago. I left that job because I was disgusted by the laziness and lack of incentive to grow in knowledge and basic worth in the job place. I wanted to be more, and feel good about the salary I “earned”, not just got “paid”.

          • Dan az

            So eddie
            You think we should get rid of the corporations because they make to much?But then wouldnt the unions have to go then to?Awhile back someone I know was watching the news when this interview of some guy on the GM line was standing there with remote controls in his hands wearing tennis shoes and shorts while loading cars on to a conveyor,stated that he made $75 an hr.Is this what you would call reasonable wages?and thats not counting the bennies.You think that if the corporation had oh say 1000 people at these kind of wages that they actually make much of a profit?And you wounder why the price of every thing is so high,pass it on to the consumer and then lets try to take whats left in taxes to help pay for those that dont want to work anymore.Sounds fair to me.NOT!

          • eddie47d

            You failed to mention that management in the auto industry were making generous amounts of money. Laying it all on unions is rather short sighted. Personally I think they all made too much unless they were truly strenuous or physical jobs.

      • traderphil

        Our Western nations “teachers” teaching curriculum is garbage!! That is why students NEVER fail, have OPEN BOOK exams??? and leave school as FUNCTIONALLY ILLITERATE!! And you want to get paid rediculous $$$ for that !!??? Pay for your own Health Care, like everyone else!!! You only need a grade 10 education to be able to teach elementary school, if the truth be known, don’t you? You are NOT doing students any favors, for sure! You are OVER PAID and “teach” garbage, in my opinion. You folks don’t even realize that ALL KIDS DON’T LEARN THE SAME WAY!! Kids would be better off taught from PC’s! Get rid of the absolutely unnecessary SCHOOL BOARDS, as well!!! Tests PROVE students are LESS intelligent than they were 20 years ago due to the pathetic school system that now exists! Great job you aren’t doing!!!

        • Ruby

          Hear! Hear!

        • http://! Angel Wannabe

          trader phil, I agree for the most part, but in my opinion the American way of life is mainly to blame. Everyone is too busy working, and NO IS HOME TO guide the KIDS IN THE RIGHT DIRECTION!__I don’t agree with the current textbook curriculum, in fact I contacted some officials about it two years ago. But the teachers can’t teach ANYTHING wrong or right, if the Students don’t have the Drive to learn, and today a lot of them don’t!!!

        • Carlucci

          Amen – ! The public schools suck, and they suck on purpose. I’ve said it before and will say it again. The three kids next door to me have all been home schooled, except when they wanted to “try” public school for a semester, which they hated because they were so far ahead of their fellow classmates. They were resented and ridiculed by their moronic “teachers” and dimwitted classmates because they were/are so smart. My neighbors’ kids are not only well read and brilliant, they are kind, courteous, and well mannered; obviously products of good parenting.

          As far as those idiots in Wisconsin, I say fire every single one of them, and in addition, press charges against the ones who took students off campus without parental permission to participate in the protests.

          Cross-hairs on posters of the governor? Hey, wasn’t it just about eight weeks ago that Sarah Palin was taking heat for using cross-hairs on districts on her website? The looney left took that and ran with it after Gabby Giffords was shot and wounded by a left wing nut in Arizona. But I guess it is a-okay for the libtards to use cross-hairs, because God forbid they would ever be labeled as hypocrites.

          • http://! Angel Wannabe

            Well Said Carlucci!!!

      • JC

        Jovianus says:
        February 22, 2011 at 7:17 am
        Actually Vicki…they just showed on CNN not more than 5 minutes ago others in the crowd of those demonstrating against the anti union/anti working man legislation turning on those people ad having those signs torn up and trashed

        Since when does anti union equate to anti workmen? Nice “twist” Jovi…but it doesn’t fly.

        • Jovianus

          Simple generalized definition for you.

          Working man = those that shower after coming home from work.
          White collar = those that shower before going to work.

          Unions are responsible for setting the scale for working conditions, wages, benefits and almost every aspect of the workplace. It’s a shame that the past 20 years the unknowledgable and those not knowing their history or economics have turned the image of the working man on its ear and is now demonizing their rights to bargain as a unit.

          • JC

            Unions have had their day…and it’s over.
            They are “responsible” for graft, corruption, excessive waste, working to rule and stealing all they can.
            Like the government itself, it has “evolved” into a criminal enterprise.

          • JC

            Oh! And I forgot one thing where “Teacher’s Unions” are concerned:
            They are also responsible for the great dumbing down and indoctrination of young Americans as opposed to actually educating them as Constitutional Americans.

            They get no respect and no support from me.

          • 45caliber

            Maybe I missed something in your definitions but what has showering to do with being a common working man? It isn’t even funny as a joke. I’ve been both – it didn’t change my showering habits at all. Nor did it mean that I don’t have compassion for the working man.

            Besides, if you are referring to union people was “working men” you really need to change your definitions. I’m not sure I’ve ever seen a union member work hard at anything … except staying out of work.

          • http://! Angel Wannabe

            Right 45, that chushy time, is what the Unions are afraid of losing too!

      • Robin from Arcadia, IN

        Jovianus… You are back! Not too surprised! I didn’t read your whole post. I was just concerned with who was paying to bus in who for your little ruckus going on in Wisconsin. Is the union paying for the additional support they are having bussed in? Who’s paying for the governors’s support group? This will be interesting to find out, don’t you think?

        • Jovianus

          Robin…I was wondering that very same question. Who was paying to bus in the out of staters. Since the out of staters are mainly anti union demonstrators, it will be interesting when this is over.

          Seems the Gov’s plans aren’t garnering much in state support. Have to wonder why they need to bus in out of state suporters eh?

          • Brad

            Don’t you have it backwards, the unions are bussing in union supportes, so who’s paying for theis entire mess. I know the teachers aren’t getting paid for the days they’ve spent protesting at the capital, will the unions pay their bills?

          • http://! Angel Wannabe

            Jo, gees, that’s Funny, so far I’ve only seen videos of Unions Sympathizers & Supporters_ and Socialists/Communists trolling for new members & giving away copies of the Communist manfesto!???

      • vicki

        Jovianus writes:
        “Interesting note as well. The anti union thug governor just stated he was concerned about those being bused in from other areas…failing to note they are pro anti union TPers from other states.”

        Proof by bald assertion.

        Jovianus: “The ones fighting for the rights of Americans in Wisconin are Wisconsinites. The anti union people have to have people bused in…not the pro American demonstrators.”

        Proof by bald assertion.

        Jovianus: “Third…it’s not about teachers though that’s the spin now being foisted by the Conservatives the GOP and the anti patriotic people.”

        Since you failed to make a point (What it is about) I shall make it for you. It’s about living within your means. Even governments need to.

        Jovianus: “Fourth, last week the unions accepted the financial concessions..and the governor just stated he wasn’t giving up until their collective bargaining rights were ripped away, and he wouldn’t even talk to anyone but GOP legislators and anti union people.”

        So it is ok for Democrats to hold fast but not ok when Republicans hold fast. Hypocrisy thy name is Democrat.

        Jovianus: “Fifth…The state would have a surplus except for tax breaks given for Big Business (no small business could realize any significant savings from the legislation) just two weeks ago.”

        Governments are not supposed to have a surplus. They should return any surplus to the poor folk who have their hard earned money taken at gunpoint. (Just try saying no to tax and see how long before someone with a gun shows up.)

        Jovianus: “Sixth…this governor was once a DA. He came into office, tred to fire the security people, was rebuffed, then declared a “state of budget acrisis” and fired them all. Replaced them with Rent a Cops. Lower wages, some had criminal records etc…costs soared. Two years winding throught the courts and his moves were declared illegal as against collective bargaining rights and the state constitution. Not only were his stated savings unrealistic…it ended up costing more.”

        Proof by bald assertion.

        Jovianus: “Collective bargaining is a right enjoyed by working Americans for well over 100 years. This crisis we ar in nationally and state by state has nothing to do with state wages and salaries. Nothing. Yet the GOP spin is it’s a cure all panacea.”

        If collective bargaining is a right then just do it. But when a person HAS to belong to a union they are forced to go with whatever the collective wants. This strips the employer(government) and the employee of their right to INDIVIDUALLY bargain. Because there is only 2 in collective bargaining there is no competition. Without competition the union demands whatever they want. States that fail to realize the dangers then agree to the higher costs (wages and benefits.) which results in economic hardships that we see in Wisconsin.

        Some states often fail to even care because their democrat run legislators have no problem spending more of other peoples money. Hence Collective Bargaining between government and union is GUARANTEED to escalate costs until the states run out of other peoples money.

        Jovianus: “So have low paid government workers, bribery and corruption returns, lower educated and trained…

        Bribery and corruption never left. Education and training comes before hiring or at the employers preference on the job.

        Jovianus: “in other words, third world status. Yep…that sure is pro American eh?’”

        Red Herring.

        • 45caliber

          I have to agree with the governor on one thing at least – I wouldn’t want to use the security guards who dislike my politics. I’d want to hire my own guards too, especially since those “securty guards” are all armed …

    • Rusticus

      This is simply part of the teabaggers attempt to discredit the Americans protesting in Madison. There is nothing too low for right wing anti-American scumbags.

      Of course, knowing it is a lie won’t stop right wingers from running with it since lies are their stock and trade.

      • http://! Angel Wannabe

        rustcus___ROFLMAO!!!!!

      • JC

        And so speaks a communist.

      • Vicki

        Rusticus is projecting again.

    • vicki

      Jovianus says:
      “And why aren’t you decrying those signs other than pointing out they were being present?”

      Because I actually read and understood the Constitution. Do you?

    • Lewis Munn

      I saw that too. Why is there not a protest?

      Maybe conservatives are too civilized to resort to crosshairs now, and only leftists are permitted to do that?

      Strange that the political side one is on makes a difference in the legitimacy of the use of crosshairs!!

  • K. D. M.

    As I see it both the teachers along with other union workers and the democrats that went into hiding walked off the job and quit. So now is the time to replace them. There are plenty of real Americans that are looking for work.

    • DOGS FIGHT

      Good point! How many desperate Americans living in tent cities now who have had their unemployment benefits expire and who live on food stamps would gladly work as a teacher for as low as $30,000-$40,000 a year? These union folks have no idea how awful things are for some Americans. I hope they are ready for a world where digging up earthworms or desperately trying to catch grasshoppers for dining is one option or being a slave in a FEMA camp is another option.

      • Al Sieber

        You got that right DOGS!!

      • peter robison

        I am sure there are a lot of 8th grade illiterates, who could teach your kids for $30,000 or $40,000 per year, if that is what you want. People who get well paying jobs, have earned the right by making the scrifices that many are not willing to make.

        • Ruby

          So only illiterates are out of work? Oh, I mis-quoted you…8th grade illiterates. I’ve been out of work for 20 months, and I’m not illiterate by any stretch of the imagination. You and people who think like you (elitist), disgust me. THAT is non-American.

          • eddie47d

            Ruby; Since several on this site are against anyone “mooching” for benefits; how do you feel about about taking unemployment comp? Those people are against that too.Some are totally against the concept of Social Security also even though folks pay into it.Should all companies abolish benefit plans just because someone else thinks they are unfair?

          • http://! Angel Wannabe

            eddie47d, with all do respect, SS was paid in by the workers themselves, if SS was handled on the up and up, why are they broke?___and another thing, I’ll take some flack for this but, companies that we work for, don’t owe us a damn thing except a days wage!__They don’t owe us, a check from the time we retire until we die, they don’t owe us benefits package___They just do it!___NOW_ these companies have to pay, TAX, Regulation, benefits packages to current and retirees, why is it do you think they’re going broke!!!!___Wake up man!!!

          • Brad

            Angel,

            You need to remember eddie47d will never wake up, he has his head stuck up some rat/union boss’s azz to see or evan see the light!

          • http://! Angel Wannabe

            Brad, At’s what I’m sayin’ too!

          • JC

            Note the choices eddie offers are “all or nothing”.
            What about individual choice eddie?
            Just because I might “choose” to opt out of government benefits that I am presently forced to pay into…doesn’t mean everyone has to opt out, does it?
            That’s the problem with “socialism” it leaves us no choices.

          • eddie47d

            Sorry Brad; The air I breath smells nothing like rear end. Maybe you have been sucking on a little too much tail pipe. LOL

          • Brad

            Sorry eddie47d, atleast I listen to both sides of the argument before making an educated desision on matters that will affect me and my children later in life. Go ahead, keep whiffing the sh__ your rat congressman/senators spew and that includes your union bosses because you love the stench, without them you would have no life. Eddie47d get a life, quit leaning on your union bosses for your guidance.

          • eddie47d

            You’re still anti-union and hardly looking at both sides. That makes you a troll.

        • Dogma-Free “The Trinity”

          @peter robison – Yes, there are many of those 8th grade illiterates you speak of.

          In fact, many of them come here, and post far-right rhetoric and propaganda…haha…and I’m sure they would *love* to ‘teach’ your kids…

          • http://! Angel Wannabe

            Dogma free, We live In America Under a Constitution, we sure as H*ll wouldn’t you teaching our kids either,__why would I want the likes of a Commie teaching my kids ANYTHING!

          • JC

            Jovianus, eddie and Dogme-Fed speak…and the IQ of the country slips a few more notches…what a pathetic “parasitic” crew these vermin socialists truly are…

      • Lewis Munn

        I’d be tempted to go back and teach. Taught some so I know how. Tho if I had to spend half my time doing lunch counts and other busywork instead of teaching, I’d need 50 or 60K or more!!

        I enjoyed sharing my knowledge with students and seeing them “get it”, the light dawning.

        But I am too old and know too much to pass in a union environment. As I found out years ago!! I was fired for teaching my courses too well, and students going on to college, etc, that they had not thought of before.

    • Commonsense

      AMEN! I’ll second that motion!

      • peter robison

        I am not sure where the idea that SS was broke came from.( I could take an educated guess) True it is paid into by the workers, and by last count there was 2.5 Trillion dollars (with a T) in the fund, hardly broke. It does make good press to say it is broke in order to further someone’s agenda.

        • 45caliber

          peter:

          Originally the idea of SS came from FDR. It was supposed to be a “savings” program for workers to provide for their retirements. You would pay in, the money would be given interest, and upon retiring you would draw out a check based on the total amount that you paid in. If you paid in $1 mil (what you paid plus interest over 40 years) you could draw as much as $50,000 a year (5% interest) which was common even in the ’70s. But it started to grow so much that the politicians began to change it. First they allowed anyone who paid in (even as little as 7 quarters – 1 3/4 years) to draw since it wasn’t fair to the elderly to not get some. They continued to grow in dollars so they decided to put offices in all cities instead of just the state capitols because it was too hard for an older person to apply. (It required a copy of your birth certificate and your SS#). Then they added widows and orphans, the disabled, etc. Finally they started “borrowing” the money by replacing it with Treasury notes. But during Clinton’s time (I think) they decided that was obligating them too much so they stopped even trying to do that. Right now they are upset because they aren’t getting as much extra money a year to satisfy them so they insist that SS is broke. The real problem is that they can’t use any of it without cutting what those on SS are getting. If you notice NO ONE in Washington is suggesting cutting the tax – just those drawing it.

          • Lewis Munn

            And it gripes me that those in Washington are not required to be on the same SS that I am!

            They got their own healthcare, they got their own version of SS…all much better than allowed the working people, who are the backbone of America.

            Getting broken now supporting lavish living for politicians, and good times for illegals!

        • Lewis Munn

          Must be broke, one way or another. I can barely live on it, and get no COL anymore.

          If I could have put that same amount into precious metals, it would be worth something now.

          It ain’t what it was cracked up to be. Dunno where they got those pictures of older folks on SS in beautiful homes and yachts, etc.

    • marvin

      K. D. M.
      well said ,i agree 100% work or get fired and go home

    • Ruby

      I was job searching a little while ago, and for grins and giggles, I visited the State of Wisconsin job site: http://wisc.jobs/public/index.asp

    • 45caliber

      K.D.M.:

      I agree completely. When they walked off, they quit. Sort of like the air controllers did at the airports during Reagon’s term.

  • ldot

    Fire them all and the chicken—- Senators, who tucked their tail between their legs and ran for the hills. Why were the tea-partiers called “extremists” when they were protesting Obamacare, that was shoved through against the will of the majority of the American people, but when the unions protest, it’s “democracy”? Unbelievable…….entitlements are why the states are bankrupt…..and the dems want to keep handing them out to secure a vote….

    • Cliffystones

      And you forgot to add that the Republicans didn’t leave the country when Obozocare was rammed down our throats.

      • http://! Angel Wannabe

        Cliffystones, Damn good comeback!!!!!_and oh so true!

      • marvin

        Cliffystones
        no he did not forget we the conseritivts,just kick out bad apples like o cigar clinton and no tax rangles and bribe taker hastings the liberal promote them,and screem a little louder their sleeping in their offices said sen boxer,this will hurt the woman right to birth control,if we stop funding baby killers,just like a timex we take in all in stride,and just keep truckin

      • eddie47d

        Cliffy; The Republicans only hid in their offices and refused to come out and debate the issue.Even though they were offered several times. So you are correct that you can’t solve problems or make deals if certain people don’t show up. You know that collective bargaining thing that brings folks together.

        • http://! Angel Wannabe

          Right eddie, you just keep telling yourself that!___The Dems locked out the Repubs, they WON the election remember a retort from Obama to McCain!!!!_-Who was it that said, The Republicans have to get in the back of the Bus!_____NO BRAINER EDDIE, A NO BRAINER_-and not enough AMMO!

          • eddie47d

            I believe Obama made that statement about the bus in response to his other statement about the Republicans driving the car/bus into the ditch and now wanted the Democrats to dig them out.In other words go to the back of the bus because you don’t know how to drive.

        • Brad

          Eddie,

          you are so brain dead, republicans brought over 40 amendments to obamacare before it’s passage, each one shot down without debate. As for collective barginning, that’s one side basically extorting money from one to another and it needs to end.

          • http://! Angel Wannabe

            Brad, Oh so Right!!!

          • Vicki

            The problem with collective bargaining is that it removes competition thus breaking the Capitalist system. You can see by this why collective bargaining is so popular with socialists and communists.

          • http://! Angel Wannabe

            Vickie, AbsolutelY!

  • Gregory M Fota

    Spoiled brats! Spoiled BRATS! Let these “teachers” get in the real world. I contributed 25% of my Blue Cross premiums at work for 28 years, and counted myself extremely fortunate! They are “teaching” the children all right–by bad example..”scream and throw tantrums until you get what you want”. Thank God I went to Catholic schools-you won’t see this kind of political nonsense there!

    • marvin

      Gregory M Fota
      don,t know about that but when i was in school in the 50 and 60 teacher were their in the class room not for money not by unions but because thay were teacher and if you did not teach you were fired ,and if you did not do as told you had a butt spanking,and you know what i am proud and respect them all,even if they beat the hell out of me and i deserved ever lick

    • Lewis Munn

      Nor in home schools, that the government, expecially Liberals, gets so upset about.

  • chucky

    Reminds me of an old saying “you can sheer the sheep(taxpayers) multible times but you can only eat him once”. Looks like the unions are looking to eat the sheep(taxpayers) instead of the usual sheering Teachers and union employees of the state of Wisconsin. Grow up, shut up, go back to work, bite the bullet like the rest of us and be grateful that you are still employed. It is a branch that bends that remains on the tree longer than the stiff rigid one. So like the rest of us working in the private sector B.O.H.I.C.A. (Bend Over Here It Comes Again) LOL

    • eddie47d

      Apparently Crystal doesn’t think anyone but Tea Partiers have a right to address their grievances and several here have agreed with that. Since you all are so conscientious I expect for you to give up part of your salaries or retirement benefits for the good of the USA. We know that won’t happen yet you Demand that others do. Let’s cut Social Security benefits while you are at it or at least pay more into the system. Tax those private pension plans so those folks can squeal and feel the pain.You want to mock the folks in Wisconsin and think they are being unfair. Well then start taking your lumps and give up what you earned or pay alot more.

      • Brad

        Eddie47d,

        Then explain why the teachers union and state employee’s union are up in arms over an increase to 8% for those contributing to their retirment. Then explain why they are crying about having their medical premiums increased from 5% to 12.6% out of pocket expenses. If the bill is passed the state picks up 87.4% of their medical premiums and there collective barginning only affects future pay raises. Eddie47d you have no argument, you sir are just need to keep your head barried in the sand, you will never learn.

      • Brad

        Also eddie47d,

        If the bill was signed today by July 1 Wisconsin would save 30 million and 200 million in 2 year’s, it’s a lot better than letting go 500 state and school teachers. It’s a far cry from the 3.6 billion the states in the hole for.

      • Vicki

        Eddie47d writes:
        “I expect for you to give up part of your salaries or retirement benefits for the good of the USA.”

        Lead by example Eddie47d. Something that the teachers and democrat legislators in Wisconsin seem to be failing.

        • eddie47d

          How much is governor Walker giving up from his paycheck? That would be setting the example. Top down makes a bigger impression.

          • Vicki

            Eddie47D. The top of the heap in the sovereign country of The United States of America is the individual citizen. I.E. you. Lead by example please.

      • Lewis Munn

        Already been there and done that. My SS amounts kept rising, faster than my salaries did, And I got less and less in the long run as SS was expanded to folks who did not contribute, and used for other purposes.

        For the first time in my life, I live in poverty, on SS, while retiring congressmen have multimillion dollar fortunes and still get huge “SS” retirement payments. Especially my Democratic Congressmen!

  • chucky

    And it is long overdue to save hundreds of billions. Time to privitize the public school system in America

    • s c

      Chucky, privatization might work on a limited, small scale. The best ways to compensate for Uncle Scam’s education failure are 1) homeschool 2) private school and 3) church school. Get kids OUT of public schools. Solve the problem.
      Keep career criminals and politicians OUT of the formula. Parents are the best teachers. Wisconsin is showing America why unions can’t be trusted. Most politicians are no better than effin,’ useful idiot, community organizers (anyone in Washington come to mind?).

      • 45caliber

        s c:

        You said, “Keep career criminals and politicians OUT of the formula.”

        Isn’t that sort of redundant? I’d consider “career criminals” and “politicians” to be the same thing.

  • Bert Cundle

    P.A.C. Is to blame… They stole our $. for Politician, Corruption!

  • Brad

    The democrats/union teachers are crying because they are having to put out more from their pockets. Give me a break please, this situation is a flash back to Greece, the country went bankrupt due to the same politics/collective barginning. The people are expecting the state to pay for everything; I’m sorry they are wrong teachers/state unions, when are they going to realize when other people money is gone cuts have to be made to pay the bills. This situation shows me what the unions have done to fatten their own pockets through dues, what’s happened to non-union teachers and state employee’s how are they doing? I believe the Govenor of Wisconsin is doing a great job trying to cut costs and ballance his states budget, now we see what the unions realy stand for, money and more money to include power, shame on them, DOWN WITH ALL UNIONS.

    • Jovianus

      Ok…so what does the wage and benefit concessions given by the unions have to do with the attempt to bust unions and restrict the right of the people to organize and bargain as a unit?

      • Augusta

        You ask the question I have been asking of all my republican friends. Maybe someone will answer on this forum.

        • Jovianus

          Augusta..my observations after a week or two here is when you ask these folks a question…they somehow never get aound to answering it unless there’s a convenient lie or half truth available to use…

          • ValDM

            I’ll take you on. Unions used to bargain for safety in the work place. Do you see anything in the teacher’s work place that is detrimental to their performance? Unions used to bargain for wages and benefits. Teacher’s wages and benefit packages have far outstripped the private sector’s. The taxpayer sees this and says It has to stop. I can’t pay my rent AND put food on the table, yet these people have ben coddled by their unions. It’s time for them to cut back. Those of us not on the public dole (private sector) can’t keep coming up with more, more, more. WHY do they need collective bargaining??? It’s not like they’re coal miners. They don’t need to be protected from anything, except maybe the taxpayer that’s completely fed up with paying huge sums of money for the end result of illiterate children. Pay should be commensurate with performance, but with unions that isn’t the case, is it? When unions bargain for disciplinary actions for less than stellar performance, then I might agree with you. But right now they want more money, more money, more money. The well has run dry. Go dig another well. The taxpayer has had ENOUGH!!!!

          • Jovianus

            Again…Val, what does busting the union have to do with the wage and benefit concessions? The unions agreed to the concessions … why is that reason first given now not the reason for the legislation? Why is it now so important as to be paramount to bust the union?

            Are you saying people can’t get together and bargain as a unit for what they think are areas needing imporvement by their employer?

          • Augusta

            Jovianus,

            Yeah….I see what you mean. Wow…….

          • Vicki

            Jovianus writes:
            “Are you saying people can’t get together and bargain as a unit for what they think are areas needing imporvement by their employer?”

            I think that people DO have the right to get together and bargain as a unit. I think that people DO have the right to NOT get together and bargain with that unit. Show me a union willing to support the INDIVIDUAL right to join a unit or not and I will think a little better of that union.

            Now here is the problem with ALL unions. They eliminate competition. Because competition is gone people loose the incentive to work hard.
            Because competition is gone people loose the incentive to work in areas outside the very narrow one defined by their “job title”
            Because competition is gone employers loose the incentive to pay better workers which reenforces the loss of incentive to work hard.

            The loss of competition and thus incentive breaks the economic model of capitalism. Probably why anti-capitalists like unions so much.

            To quote a union friend of mine who worked at a big private firm under a union based government contract. “Why should I hold the scope probes for you. I get paid just as much to sit here and watch”.

      • Brad

        What consessions, the only thing the unions want is for some one else to pay for everything. Let me ask you a question, when was the last time union leadership took a pay cut?

        • http://! Angel Wannabe

          Brad, How’s about the first week of NEVER!

        • eddie47d

          The Majority of union officials do not get paid much and some not at all. Some volunteer their time to better working conditions. Few unions are run by the Hoffa types.

          • http://! Angel Wannabe

            Eddie, don’t hand me that eddie, my old man hand to keep track of his Union time on the clock. The company docked 2 hrs off his time card, if he was on 2 hrs of Union time!_–get up earlier!

          • JeffH

            Again eddie speaks like a “know-it-all”…”The majority”?

            Let’s see, Michigan…Records supplied to the Labor Department by the unions themselves show that the state’s 50 top-paid union officials now earn an average of $186,000. More than 1,000 labor officers and staffers in Michigan made more than $100,000 in 2006, more than twice as much as the average union worker.

            Head Of NJ Teachers’ Union, NJEA director Vince Giordano received $421,615 in salary and $128,508 in deferred compensation.

            When it comes to salaries, benefits, and perks, NEA(National Education Association) union officials are better off than teachers.
            -The average teacher salary: $47,808.
            -The average NEA employee salary: $87,725
            -Nearly half of NEA employees receive more than $100,000 a year.
            -The NEA’s payroll is a massive $59,514,611.
            =Benefits and expense accounts take the total up to $68,504,851.
            When it comes down to the money, the NEA’s own reports indicate its officials and employees come first.

            Top Union Boss Salaries in Illinois.
            According to a review of the disclosure database on the United States Department of Labor’s Office of Labor-Management Standards (OLMS) website, there were 102 union employees and officers in Illinois who grossed over $150,000 in base salary for fiscal year 2008.

            Average Union Boss Salaries – The average salary for union boss jobs is $118,000. (In USD as of Feb 22, 2011)

          • http://! Angel Wannabe

            Atta Boy JeffH!

          • Jovianus

            Jeff…are you a member of the NEA/ if not, why should you care what union officials make? Affects you not one iota. Why aren’t you whning about the pay of CEOs making hundreds of times more than the workers making the products?

          • Vicki

            Jovianus says:
            “Jeff…are you a member of the NEA/ if not, why should you care what union officials make?”

            Since Jeff was countering Eddie47d’s factoid with an actual fact his care about union official salaries is irrelevant.

            Jovianus says: “Affects you not one iota. Why aren’t you whning about the pay of CEOs making hundreds of times more than the workers making the products?”

            Attempt to change the subject of the debate. Are you new here or just a liberal?

            The debate point by Eddie47d was “Majority of union officials not paid much.”. The debate counterpoint by JeffH was “They are paid a LOT more than eddies point would imply”.

            Now to your silly point about jeff not whining about something you whine about. Jeff doesn’t whine. If he is bothered at all about the salary of some CEO he does not buy the product.

            Too bad we are not allowed the option to not buy the product of union tampering with government employee work.

          • JeffH

            Vicki, thank you. Even though I was preparred to point out Jovianus well learned Alinsky tactics I no longer have to. Of course, again, we all know that the board liberal harpy wouldn’t have acknowledged his attempt to pull the wool over our eyes nor will he admit is err.

            As for Jovianus’, we’ve seen the all to often the “American Liberal’s, Dogma’s, Kinetic’s, Flash’s and all the other liberal harpy’s that come and go and heard their tired and repetitive “change the direction” of the comments here to even be fazed.

          • JeffH

            Jovianus says:
            February 22, 2011 at 5:18 pm
            Jeff…are you a member of the NEA/ if not, why should you care what union officials make? Affects you not one iota. Why aren’t you whning about the pay of CEOs making hundreds of times more than the workers making the products?

            Answer…because I’m not a Marxist/socialist/communist progressive minded liberal! Will that suffice?

          • Lewis Munn

            Funny. In my whole lifetime, from seeing s strike in my home town where the union guy shot and killed a non-union worker, to now, I have not worked under a union that had any other goals than expanding its power. And not ever seen or heard of one.

      • marvin

        Jovianus
        wake up we are broke and not all but alot was at the hand of the unions,no ,i said no public employ need be unionized,only thing public servent union do is screw the public that are not in the union and they work for you john q public

        • Jovianus

          Marv…the concessions were given. What is the cost now?

      • 45caliber

        Jovi:

        Perhaps I haven’t heard all the news on this, but if they don’t give up what they need, why shouldn’t the govenor keep pushing? I’d be willing to give up a penny an hour if it helped increase my own bottom line but that wouldn’t be enough. Perhaps they are actually giving up enough? Or is it that they aren’t? Perhaps they aren’t giving up other things that the state needs? If they immediately accepted all the concessions the state needed, I’d be very surprised. That isn’t in union tradition to do that.

    • Mick

      Brad says:
      February 22, 2011 at 8:09 am
      The democrats/union teachers are crying because they are having to put out more from their pockets. Give me a break please, this situation is a flash back to Greece, the country went bankrupt due to the same politics/collective barginning. The people are expecting the state to pay for everything; I’m sorry they are wrong teachers/state unions, when are they going to realize when other people money is gone cuts have to be made to pay the bills. This situation shows me what the unions have done to fatten their own pockets through dues, what’s happened to non-union teachers and state employee’s how are they doing? I believe the Govenor of Wisconsin is doing a great job trying to cut costs and ballance his states budget, now we see what the unions realy stand for, money and more money to include power, shame on them, DOWN WITH ALL UNIONS.
      ***************************************
      Brad,,,DOWN WITH ALL UNIONS IS RIGHT,the work performance and quality have suffered dramatically and ethics are almost non existant among many union workers they have the LOUIS THE XV attitude ” After me the deluge “

  • Patriot

    This is all about the NEA, the NEA has a monopoly on the teachers, the teachers that are against the NEA are afraid of the ramifications if they speak out. So most of the law abiding teachers are in the classrooms and not in Madison, the media would like you to believe the whole school system is shutdown, it is not! The only thing the NEA cares about is their dues which they shakedown the teachers for, the NEA is fighting for their lives. In the media all they talk about is the kids and how they will suffer, it does not matter to NEA of Dept of Ed. who suffers long term as long as they get their dues and funding. The Dept. of Ed was established in the 70′s to enhance our kid’s education and better their standard test scores, well if that was their mission they completely failed while they lined their own pockets.

    I am for teachers, the good ones and against any type of monopoly this is about the people and this corrupt union. By the way you teachers fighting to the bone with your union, they could not care less about giving up you money for the pension fund or healthcare, they only want the monopoly of taking your money for their dues and benefit; do any of you see something wrong with that? The Governor is trying to give you more of a choice with what is done with your own money, maybe you should be for this bill!

    • s c

      Right on, Patriot! Short of being a classroom teacher, you know all you need to know about scumbag teacher unions. They care NOTHING about teaching or preparing students for the future.
      Their #1 concern is MONEY and how much they can get from taxpayers. Let the slimers move to Cuba. Fidel can use some help from ‘dedicated’ community destroyers like those @$%&s in Wisconsin.

      • eddie47d

        More anti-union swill in spades!

        • ValDM

          eddie,
          We know you’re a union man. What I would like to know is how you can spend so much time here, and take a wage for being here. Sounds like theft to me. Go do your job, union man. Earn the wage you’re being paid.

          • eddie47d

            Take a hike ValDM I’m retired or isn’t that allowed??

        • Lewis Munn

          Teacher’s union had me fired, and my companion teacher had to go on probation, for teaching too much and too well!

          That is the teacher’s union a number of years ago, and I am sure they have not changed!

  • JUKEBOX

    I find it very ironic that the same standards and criticisms do not apply to the liberal, Progressive union thugs when they are rabble rousing, law violating, vitriolic mobs. The lamestream media fawns over them as if they were part of the Muslim Brotherhood. Unions have contributed to problems in the auto industry, and helped industrial states lose thousands of jobs, and now want to bankrupt state governments. Fire them all and start over!

    • 45caliber

      Some years ago, during a strike, someone shot and killed a man working in the plant. When the strike was settled with government intervention, there was a clause that no one could investigate and determine who the murderer might be. I ran into the same thing in LA during a strike there too.

      Give a murderer a free pass because he belongs to a union? Not if I can help it!

      • Jovianus

        45…methinks that is a Urban Rumor. One cannot coverup a murder to settle a contract. C’mon….give me a break.

        • 45caliber

          I thought so too – but it happened.

        • 45caliber

          In both shooting cases, there was a government mediator to settle since the companies in both cases wanted to find the murderer and have him punished. The government mediator was the one who ordered no search for the murderer be done since it was so important to settle the strike and get the union people losing money back to work …

          • Jovianus

            OK…this needs a link for sourcing. A mediator cannot, under any law or grant of power, legalize murder. I’m not saying you’re fibbing 45…but I am saying the story has a strong odor of Urban Myth.

  • Raggs

    obama embraces the unions and spits on the Tea-party.

    • Jovianus

      And that’s wrong why?

      • http://! Angel Wannabe

        Jo, how convienient Obama uses his position, to kiss the azz’z of the Unions that help BUY his butt in office !!!!

        • Jovianus

          Better to funded by working Americans who are concerned for America than haliburton, foreign corporations, Big Business and uneducated fear led and driven people who are concerned for everyone but Americans. Oh wow…that second part fits where the GOP funding and support comes from doesn’t it?

          • http://! Angel Wannabe

            Yeah, Jo those Big Bad Old Business’s that provide Jobs, those people that took the money and risk at starting a company, God forbid they actually try and live off or enjoy they’re spoils__Those GREEDY men, they just started up a business, and hired a coupled thousand people for the hell of it, so Unions could infiltrate and tell them how to run things!_I’m also sure they love all the taxes, the regulation, paying hospitalization of current employees & retirees benefits__H*ll_ they ALL should just be put up in front of a firing squad and shot, what the H*ll were thinking???__Better yet, let the Guv & the Unions keep running things and they’ll run, whats left of business and manufacturing off shore too!___
            Egads man__where the h*ll is your mind?

  • http://oklahoma1 ajbokie

    bust the unions that is how we got a president we didnt want that is not able to serve because of birth now he is tring to keep all unions on his side look at the health care act he let the unions slide along with any body who would give him a vote. i have worked union anf private sector, to work union all you have to do is show up and be sure you take your breaks but private sector you have to work, you look at unions and you’ll find that they are all kin to each other that is how they get what they want…….

  • blackhawk

    I have a personal story of the value of unions.
    Years ago I was promoted to a management position in the dairy industry and had to resign from our union.I had to go to the State office to do this because then if things didn’t work out ; I could get back in the union.
    I went to their office and had to sit and wait until the big shot (sic) got ready to accept me.
    While sitting right outside his office,the door was wide open, A owner came in and was escourted right in to talk to Mr. biggie.With hat in hand
    He was complaining that he had a few workers that were not doing their jobs and kept calling in sick all the time.
    Mr. Biggie said “Stop crying to me.Fire the bastards and hire someone else.We then get ,in addition to their dues,initiation fees.We will back you up “.
    I got up and walked out and have NEVER again joined a union.
    Unions do not support the members.They support their big salaried jobs.If they don’t keep giving they have to work for a living.
    This all happened when I was 21 years old.I’m now 73 and never needed them to talk for me.
    Fire all the teachers and remove the liciences from all the phony doctors plus bring ethic charges on all the democrats that walked away.Politics need a lesson.Give it to them.

    • 45caliber

      blackhawk: another true story.

      Some years ago, my mother was big union. She wanted me to go to work where she did so I could join the union too. I asked her how much she paid a month and how many workers where she was were members. Then I multiplied. The workers were paying the union about $32,000 a month.

      I then asked her what the money was used for. Did it pay the wages of the union stewart if she needed some help? No, the company did. Did it help the workers if they were ill? Nope. The only thing we could figure that it was used for was to pay the wages of a couple of union officials so that every three years they could go to Las Vegas for six weeks to “finalize” a new contract they always signed about five minutes before the workers were to go out on strike. And everyone knew that most of that six weeks was spent in the casinos.

      She decided that perhaps unions weren’t quite as good as they insisted.

      A couple of years later she was injured at home. The union supposedly had a fund to help anyone unable to work. She applied for some help with her bills and was told that they only helped those workers if they were on strike. She resigned and never joined a union again.

      • eddie47d

        You telling that story again Caliber? I have never heard of any union taking 6 weeks off to go to Vegas (maybe one week). Blackhawk proved that you are all liars when you say that unions protect all their workers and won’t allow them to be fired. Blackhawk quit because the union boss did help in the firings.

        • Brad

          Eddie47d,

          All you have to do is look at NY city and the waste. The city can’t fire a teacher evan a teacher caught engaging in misconduct with a minor. The city has over 700 teachers sitting in what’s called the rubber room for 8 hour’s and still receiving a paycheck, that’s your unions hard at work saving their jobs. Some sit in these rubber rooms for two year’s until their case goes to arbitration. Granted some are good teachers who have been falsely accussed and I’ll be the first one to admit it, but others are just out right criminals.

        • Patriot

          eddie, who are the unions protecting our teachers and public workers from? What is the mission of a public service union? Here is a clue; dues are used to pay union leaders that would otherwise be out of work and the political campaigns/programs, etc. that most of the union members would never support with their own money. This is a fraud and a license to steal members hard earned money, most of our members know this, when the majority understand this, these organization will be disbanded, hopefully forever!

        • 45caliber

          eddie:

          Never heard of a union taking six weeks to decide a contract? That’s odd. I’ve never heard of a union taking LESS than 4 weeks. And none sign the contract until the last minute. Further, all the contract negotiations are at nice vacation spots.

        • JeffH

          Don’t you just love it when someone doesn’t “get it”, especially U-KNOW-WHO! LAMO!

          “Blackhawk quit because the union boss did help in the firings.”

          Yeah, he helpedso he could get them their jobs back and collect new initiation fees…along with any fines or assessments they may gave accrued while “fired”! DUH!

          • JeffH

            correction…new member jobs back…no loss for the union and more than likely they’ll get the “fired” employees their jobs back.

      • Bitter Libertarian

        I can only share a story from my Dad. IBEW Philadelphia. My Dad Joined the Union in 1954-worked every day..and every week the Steward came around collecting Dues, which were logged in a book, paid in cash, to a “trusted Union Member who cared about its members.” In 1994 he retired amd when he “check out” the records went back to 1970! He was outraged…he knew how long, and about how much he paid. he was told; “Sorry-our records were all destroyed in a fire, but if you have receipts maybe we can look at things differently” he now gets a pension of 70.00/month…why so little? Because in 198(0 something)the IBEW decided to include ALL Eletronic workers into the IBEW..watering down his benifits & pension he was entitled to.

        Theres a classic example of a Union paying member getting screwed out of a Pension he paid into…and it was more then 7%.

    • 45caliber

      When I was in college, I needed a summer job. There was a power plant being built and it needed workers. When I went to apply, I was told that they only hired union workers and I needed to talk to a union stewart.

      He was in an old school with five of his friends playing poker when I walked in. At the end of the hand, he asked me what I wanted. I explained that I needed a summer job and had been sent to apply through him.

      He told me that I needed to pay the union about $150 to join before he could put me on. I barely had that money so I said I could. But then before I paid him he also told me that it would be at least four months before he could put me on. I told him that wouldn’t work because I needed to go back to school in the fall and needed the work during the summer.

      “Well, pay me another $150 and I’ll put you one immediately,” he told me.

      I left.

      • Augusta

        Wow…that is awful. Do you think all unions work that way? I work for the government and am a memeber of a union. I have paid dues in the past but was not encouraged/forced/mandated to do so. I think that type of behavior is not what the unions are supposed to be about. I think UNION MEMBERS should do something about that type of blantant abuse. Even with the bad experience you encountered, I still do not agree with the stripping of the collective bargaining rights.

        • 45caliber

          Not only did he tell me that, he was being paid by the company to sit and play poker with his friends all day.

        • Vicki

          Augusta writes:
          “I still do not agree with the stripping of the collective bargaining rights.”

          If it is a right you can not have it stripped away. If it can then it is a privilege and can be taken away at any time. Perhaps an actual description of what the State of Wisconsin is supposedly trying to take away could clarify the issue. Would you care to use this teachable moment to teach us?

      • Bitter Libertarian

        Unions..an obselete mechanism that currently exists to take your money and your 1st amendment rights at work.

        Why anyone would want to be part of such an organization is beyond me. They do not (in this day & age) get you anything more then you and the State/Federal Labor board could together get. Unions were never intended to help workers..they were intended to bargain for Big Business and CONTROL the workers. Take away the curtins and you see thats their real purpose.

    • bob wire

      another case of just bad people!

      My father was working a Wards and with the Teamsters. ~ The Wards fire him with some trumped up charges and the Union refused to defend him.

      He fretted and worried with this for over 10 months, in the end he hire the meanest junkyard dog attorney that he could find and sued the Union.

      In the end, father got his job back with lost pay and attorney fees without it ever going to court.

      The bad part is the stress of all of the high pressure rangeling

    • bob wire

      another case of just bad people!

      My father was working a Wards and was a member of the Teamsters. ~ The Wards fire him with some trumped up charges and the Union showed little interest to defend him, very half hearted was their response.

      He fretted and worried with this for over 10 months, in the end he hire the meanest junkyard dog attorney that he could find and sued the Union.

      In the end, father got his job back with lost pay and attorney fees without it ever going to court.

      The bad part is the stress of all of the high pressure wrangling and sleepless night and worry tore his nerves up and he’d break out in wilts that would cover his whole body that would burn and itch, making it impossible to wear cloths. This went on and off for several years, father never was the same.

      But I can also tell of stories of working in small one horse Texas towns were three and four men own and controlled everything. How they worked people to the bone much as you would think of as being “slaves” , if you buck them in any way, They might come to you and say, “Wasn’t that your wife I seen working down a Manta Grocery?”

      The world is not know for always being a kind place.

  • marvin

    unions liberals democrats,is like undocumented criminal illegal,the only differance is in the spelling,all are the same thing ,crooks liers and thiefs

  • 45caliber

    Has anyone else ever noticed that teachers never try to strike and get government changed during the summer?

    Actually, if I found that some teacher had taken my kids to a strike line, I would be in the office of the school board demanding the teacher be fired for placing my kids in danger for his/her own benefit. And I won’t care a bit how well my kids might like that teacher.

    • libertytrain

      You obviously have not experienced Madison and its people. :)

      • JeffH

        libertytrain, it sounds as if the Madison parents that would allow their kids to be would not be very responsible parents. Although, I would expect the same parental behavior in Berkely, SF or LA.

        • JeffH

          opps…to be used…

          • libertytrain

            Yep, exactly like your part of the country. :)

    • http://! Angel Wannabe

      45, That’s exactly what I’ve stated above, No Ones home to guide & discipline these kids!__I’td be a dam tall day, one of my kids teachers would’ve taken them to a rally_all h*ll would’ve broken loose! GURANTEED!

      • 45caliber

        I agree. In fact, if a teacher had tried to get my kids to go to such a thing, they would have refused – even if it meant taking a poor grade. They knew what would have happened when they got home!

    • Karolyn

      Did you ever stop to think that maybe the parents are behind the teachers? They might even be there protesting.

      • libertytrain

        In Madison, that would be expected.

      • JC

        Which would only serve to prove how ironically stupid the parents are as well. Support thje Teacher’s union that is turning their children into mushrooms. Smart like tree stump!

  • marvin

    I SAID ON A POST AWHILE BACK EGYPT COMING TO A STREET NEAR YOU WELLLLLL,LOOK OUT TIME TO SAY GOOD BY TO 14 MILLION UNION MEMBER TELLING THE OTHER 300 MILLION HOW AND WHAT TO DO,their is a place for unions but not in goverment,come to think off it steel mill all goin[union] car makers went broke [unions]state goverment broke [unions]federal goverment broke [unions]

    • JC

      Marvin, all we need to do is look what Unions did to the economic powerhouse we used to call Detroit. It is now a third world city…
      and the Public Unions of California are going to do the same thing to the Golden state.

      • 45caliber

        Exactly.

      • Brad

        JC,

        To bad, California is already there, they can’t pay for social programs promissed by the rats and the state being 21 billion in the hole.

        • JC

          Yep! And I read where Oakland is laying off policemen.
          More benefits provided to the people by “Unions“.

        • Brad

          JC,

          Hi, I think I read the same story plus I read a story last year that provided salary new and experienced officers. The Oakland PD was paying 90K for new recruits and seasoned officers were making 160K. You have probably heard this already, the city of Vallejo went bankrupt in 2009, the police and firefighters unions were comsuming 75% of the city’s budget. Vallejo was home for four years until I went into the military, today you couldn’t pay me to live their, a very good friend of mine still lives their, he can’t wait to leave, it’s that bad.

          • JC

            Yeah Brad, I heard. It’s all true and it’s totally outrageous.
            Glad you got out.

          • JeffH

            Brad, my dad still lives in Vallejo.

          • Brad

            Sorry to hear that JeffH, give him my best. I lived on Mare Island from 77-80 then one block from from Vallejo Senior (Pierce Street) until I graduated in 83.

          • JeffH

            Brad, thanks and I will do that. He’s 85 now and still gets around pretty good. Finally had to quit golf though.

        • JeffH

          Brown won’t make any meanigful cuts or “adjustments” that will affect the public unions that financed the bulk of his campaign and got him elected.

  • C.Wester

    You guys are forgetting all the snowstorms up there in Wisconsin that closed the schools.

    • Lewis Munn

      Just means that the kids learn even less for their futures. Natural events we cannot control, regardless of all the government bureaus. But folks holding back on their labor, well, that is controllable, tho at what cost is hard to say…and easier to say the costs of not controlling!

      Say, Maybe the governor could sell Wisconsin to Canada?!! Unions should like the tight leftist government controls of Canada!!

  • Cliffystones

    The more I see comments from so called “progressives”, the more certain I am that they can’t do simple math, can’t read or remember history, and can’t understand the conflicts of interest in the current public employment sector.

    My father was a staunch union member back in he 1960s-70s. But his industry had thrown out big labor in the early 60s and created their own local unions. he despised “big labor” due to the way they ripped off him and his co-workers, and provided little or no representation in return. But he believed in his union and it’s ability to ensure that the employees were treated with respect. He also believed that you didn’t bite the hand that fed you, and that you owed your company an honest days work for your wages.

    What I see in the public sector are “big labor’ unions that have their own agenda. That agenda is first and foremost keeping their power structure in place. The workers, students, general public, etc. are a distant second. So they collect dues from workers, use those dues to contribute to politician’s campaigns (read bribe). So the folks we think we elected to represent ALL of the people are now beholding to SOME of the people more than others (union reps and to a lesser extent, their members). For the rest of us private sector folks, it’s one man, one vote. But the politicians make deals with the public employee unions like the economy is a big steel-belted balloon that has zero chance of popping. Promise them whatever, who cares! As long as I get reelected. The we the average individual taxpayers keep being told there’s no money, we have to cut services, raise taxes, blah, blah.

    So when a lot of us finally get fed up and more and more people wake up, we realize what a conflict of interest the whole system perpetrates. We start standing up and speaking out about “business as usual. For our troubles, the dishonest and the morons label US as racists, fascists etc.

    I would just like one of those commentators supporting the status quo to explain to me and the rest of us “Tea Partiers” how the current system is NOT a rigged conflict of interest. And how those of us taxpaying citizens in the private sector benefits from it. Use block diagrams, illustrations and show your math!

  • http://google mike b.

    Gov. Walker was elected to fix this mess and he is. Thug and Protester-in-chief Hussein Obama shouls just leave all governors alone and they could fix this mess state-by-state. Hussein Obama is the first pres. in US history to wage war on the states in the union(Arizona, Wisconsin, Ohio , Newe Jersey and im sure more to come. Hope and Change at its finest moment.

    • Dan az

      mike
      If he gets his way, Obama is ready to force millions of Americans into unions by eliminating, for all practical purposes, this fundamental American right.

      This betrayal of a bedrock principle of U.S. democracy can only mean one thing: America will go the way of Europe, i.e., higher unemployment, slower GDP growth, a higher cost of living, and no new job creation. That’s the history of highly unionized states like Michigan. Since the end of World War II, America has steadily moved toward a more dynamic, flexible labor market, which has resulted in huge job creation and a higher standard of living for all workers. But — if Obama and the unions have their way — that is about to change.

  • jopa

    Wow Mr. Christal just gave the teachers a $40,000 raise or he is just trying to mislead you.Another thing is it was Koch brother money that put Walker in office and the Koch brother buses bringing in the sheep( oops I mean teabaggers).The Democrats going to Wisconsin are on greyhound buses paying their own way not being sponsored by billionaires.

    • 45caliber

      jopa:

      I have this wonderful bridge for sale …

      If you believe what you just wrote, then obviously you must believe what I said about the bridge. How much can you afford for it?

    • JeffH

      jopa, I’d be willing to bet you’ve never done a background check on the Koch Bros, just as you’ve never researched your POTUS’s mentor, George Soros. It’s really easy to cat call what you hear on NPR or MSNBC.

      Of course you have something to back up your accusation? Or not!

      • Dan az

        just as I thought NOT!

  • http://! Angel Wannabe

    HEY ALL, NEWSFLASH_INDIANA DEMS JUST LEFT THE STATE TO AVOID LABOR VOTE!_-I wonder if the doctors there are gonna hand out sick slips?

    • JeffH

      Angel Wannabe, keep those cards and letters coming. Let the Dems bury themselves. Let them be un-accountable in a serious time of need. Let them “fire” themselves! The people will take notice and write their “pink” slips at the polls in the next election.

      • http://! Angel Wannabe

        At’s what I’m sayin JeffH, We knew this was gonna spread like a wildfire!

        • http://! Angel Wannabe

          JeffH, Just switched on Beck, there’s Protesters, in New York at his studio, protesting Beck because he apparently hates, teachers, Police and EMTs.

          • JeffH

            Gee AWB, I bet it wasn’t just some unhappy protesters who just decided to show up…highly organized “union” protesters would be my guess. Soros sympathizers? SEIU, La Raza, Muslim Brotherhood? All of the above? Ya think?

            Let ‘em protest…back in the 60′s again?

          • http://! Angel Wannabe

            JeffH, Imagine That?____Becks been dead on!!!_Sad to see so many refuse to see where we’re headed!

          • Dan az

            Angel
            Its sounds like they are just protesting that he is always right.wha wha wha.The sad thing is they believe what they are saying.

    • 45caliber

      We had the same problem in Texas some years go. If I’m not mistaken, we then passed a law to forbid it. But that’s just Texas.

  • Bitter Libertarian

    7% and they get all upset…pathetic…there are Americans who have to contribute 100% to their own pension! Fricking ..crybabies…whiners…PARASITES!!

    I said it before and I’ll say it again; “the parasites will twist-cringe-and fight having forced to be self reliant” The age of parasites on the American Taxpayer is coming to a head. Expect more protests, outbursts, and dirtier tactics by the Union Thugs.

    Be sharp-be aware but be firm in being self reliant. Tougher times are coming. Dont get caught off guard!

  • American Citizen

    The Democrats just keep showing their true colors. Unions got too big for their britches and their outrageous demands forced people to either go out of business or send it out of this country, We worked all our married lives and paid the taxes due. We were still able, while raising six children, to put away for our own retirement. Plus we had to pay a portion of the health care premiums. I only had a part time job which paid for our children to be able to attend private school, at least in the elementary years, and the four girls were able to attend a private high school. When my husband retired, he was the maintenance engineer at our local hospital and finally cleared $50,000 on his last pay check. I retired a few years earlier and then came up with a cancer diagnosis. Our investments are supplementing our SS, or else we would not enjoy the retirement we have. As I am now out of remission, I am thankful for Medicare and the supplemental insurance. We still pay a lot in premiums, co-pays and what is not written off.

  • http://com i41

    jopa, you mouth is over loading your alligator rear again. The DNC organized the buses and dime to a hole under a dog’s tail it has union drivers at the wheel. It isn’t billlionares, it is just mega billionares, like the Soros socialists money man,Nazi Traitor George Sortos, who is footing the bill out of one of his organizations. Anoter area you are full of s–t, is Koch brothers and the money for Tea Party, all the little Tea Party organizations are pass the hat to keep operating. Somer you pus brained marxist/cammunist democraps can never do, someone else pays the freight for you, like the worthless unions. Most real workers do not need some greasy slob to negoiate for them on a job. If you cann’t tell the employer what you want and know you are worth, I wouldn’t hire you either. Years ago I went to Denver to a company where the unions stuck and were picketing and blocking gates, I jumped at the chance to go and double my wages for the state I was in. 2 items That I travels with a sawed off 12 guage winchester, and a .45. I meet andsigned the few papers and were told these dinks might get squirrelly, so Mon. morning I went to work. The pukes had their clubs and rocks and signs, my ranch pickup had a grill guard that had moved along a cow or 2, so to let them know I was not stopping I just down shifted and got on the throttle. The next day I got a few rocks and sticks throwen, so a shot gun got their attention the next day and the first jackass I caught throwing any thing and hitting my pickup would get shot. It soon settled down and after 3 months most let the ubion and came back to work. I was told that in all their strikes and intimadation usually they were able to stop work completely. Several of myu friends can down from Wyo, Mt. and SD. Tht is what Walker should do is can all the dorks.

  • jopa

    i41;Well now you tell me your a scab and cross picket lines like when you crossed the border to get here.It won’t be long before you are picked up and deported and American skies will shine so much brighter when you are back in your homeland.Adios amigo!!Once a line jumper always a line jumper.

  • JeffH

    libertytrain and Angel, it pretty obvious you both get it.
    How’s this for brainwashing? Should teachers that have included their students in their protests without telling them what they were protesting, instead of learning something in class, deserve to be terminated? I believe so.
    http://townhall.com/video/wisconsin-teachers-take-students-to-protest-instead-of-class
    I’m neither pro union or anti union. I’ve had a seat on both sides of the table and have seen the good and bad in them. It’s all about the economics. What is overlooked in these bankruptcy states is that the government negotiators just gave the unions these perks in benefits wrecklessly, something that governments, in general, seem to do…spend taxpayer money without much thought. These are the issues that must be dealt with, or everbody loses, the unions, the teachers, the students and the states.

    Many of the unions have become nothing more than a progressive political tool(SEIU)losing sight on why they were there in the first place. The SEIU, the union organizing the protests across the country, the union sharing Michelle’s bed with the POTUS, was the biggest outside spender of the 2010 elections. They have a vested interest because they literally bought elections in cities and states across the nation.

    The 1.6 million-member AFSCME is spending a total of $87.5 million on the elections after tapping into a $16 million emergency account to help fortify the Democrats’ hold on Congress.

    The 2010 election could be pivotal for public-sector unions, whose clout helped shield members from the worst of the economic downturn. In the 2009 stimulus and other legislation, Democratic lawmakers sent more than $160 billion in federal cash to states, aimed in large part at preventing public-sector layoffs.

    Critics say public-sector unions are funded by what is essentially taxpayer cash, since member salaries, and therefore union dues, come directly from state budgets. Public-sector unions have a guaranteed source of revenue—you and me as taxpayers.

    The union is spending heavily this year because “a lot of people are attacking public-sector workers as the problem,” said AFSCME President Gerald McEntee. “We’re spending big. And we’re damn happy it’s big. And our members are damn happy it’s big—it’s their money,”

    Whether you like it or not, the Wisconsin governor is up for the challenge and the taxpayers are behind him. Git er done!

    • libertytrain

      I agree with you. I must say though, that I would almost wager money that many of the parents were well aware in that particular community. Kind of like more liberal than San Francisco.

      • JeffH

        libertytrain, you might be right but I’m willing to bet that parents didn’t give permission to the teachers, whether they agree with the teachers or not, to “use” their kids as their tools of propaganda.

  • JeffH

    One cannot be a leftist without being a hypocrite. It really is just that simple. The last several days in Wisconsin has again born that truism out, too, as teachers union thugs in the Badger State have indulged every manner of behavior that they have constantly condemned the right for engaging in — even as no one on the right has actually done the things the left charges them with doing.

    These teachers and union thugs are flooding into the capitol disrupting the state senate chambers, these teacher thugs are sporting signs with Governor Walker depicted as Hitler, these teacher thugs are attempting to thwart the will of the voters that put a Republican Governor into office to do exactly what he is trying to do, these teacher thugs are even making a pig sty out of the capitol grounds with piles and piles of garbage.

    Worse, these teacher have shut down the schools and taken the kids from the schools to the state capitol to whine for the union agenda.
    Talk about indoctrination by propaganda. Do you want these kind of teachers in public schools indoctrinating rather than teaching? Imagine how up in arms the left would be if conservatives had taken kids out of school to take them to a political rally! Interviews with some of these kids also proves that they really haven’t a clue why they are there, either.

    The public-sector union tantrums, meant to make lawmakers wobble, have an inadvertent message for the rest of us: Voters can vote all they want. We can elect a cheapskate governor and a Legislature to match. But come the moment, unions will have the last, loudest word.

    It should be noted that this whole attack on democracy perpetrated by these union thugs is also built on lies and subterfuge. Governor Walker is not proposing to eliminate the union (though I would certainly support that move) but is only trying to require that these public employee union members pay more into their pensions and healthcare plans. He hopes that the hike in premiums will help keep the employees at work. If he cannot get these concessions, though, he’ll be forced to begin massive layoffs.

    Sadly, instead of seeing reality writing on the wall, unions are doubling down on their anti-democratic, greedy, unsustainable demands. They realize that they are fast losing the complete lock on power they once had and instead of making logical concessions they are making it war to the hilt.

    The American people are about sick of these union thugs. Prepare for the teachers to lose all sympathy from the voters.

  • ONTIME

    There is no comparison as to the recent antics by Conservatives, Tea party and Republican demonstrations, when it comes to civility and decorum the libs are just left field in all ways.

    The Tea party people made their points and all hell broke loose because they didn’t act like the jerks on the left, Beck’s 9/28 show of faith and force was lied about so frequently the left looked like a bunch of fools. The attempt by the left to counter these subtle, persuasive demonstrations by the right was dismal, sloppy and thoughtless, they just could not keep on point or keep from cursing the darkness out loud and any problem they disagreed with was labled racist, anti american or just plain unconstitutional but nothing the left did was ever looked at in depth or with intent by the MSM.

    Now the fit is hitting the shan in Wisc. and it is a make or break deal here for the left and the government unions, if they cannot have the collective right to negotiate benefits then they are toast. This has now made them pariahs, even the private sector unions are telling the government unions to go back to work and stop the whining, thse anti trust unions have blown their wad and the public wants it’s investment back,in spades. When the lefts historical hero FDR recognized the insidous damage from within to America from allowing government unions then these people on the left need to quote him more loudly on this issue and the kind of action Reagan took against the ATC people is what is needed to stop all this baloney and nonsense in Wisconsin….

    • JeffH

      ONTIME, right on time. The left’s antics have become the expected “desperate ” measures that desperate people rely on. Smoke & mirrors…something I think we’ve all become wary of but accustomed to seeing from the desperate progressive, aka, the desperate Marxist/socialist/communist.

      • bob wire

        I believe Smoke & Mirrors is a common strategy common to both parties.

        In this case, Governor Walker has acerbated the state of Wisconsin budget short falls one week with Santa Claus “give aways” and the next week demanded a select “overpaid” group to pay for last weeks Santa Claus act.

        Should we be looking for future rebates and deferments?

  • Sue

    If you want to cut the budget, why not look at the salaries that the government officials make like the Congressmen and Senators. They can vote themselves a pay raise yet not give a cost of living pay raise for social security! Why should they get a pay raise when the economy is so bad? Plus our taxes pays for their health insurance and pensions, so why don’t they cut their own health insurance and pensions too? Why don’t they want to give up their health insurance and get the same kind of health insurance that the working people get?

    If they want the working people to do their part by cutting pensions and health insurance, THEN THEY, THEMSELVES SHOULD DO IT FIRST!!!!!!!

    • bob wire

      Thanks for that SUE. it’s called “Lead by Example”

      Who’s to be the first to follow these over paid union members to step forward?

    • 45caliber

      I agree but I want to clear up one thing. Congress does NOT vote to give themselves a pay raise. It is automatic. It goes up every year … UNLESS they vote to NOT take it. And I suspect you can guess how often that happens.

    • http://marcum1@wildblue.net coal miner

      Sue,

      Amen! I agree with you.

    • Carlucci

      Not long ago, there was an article on this site about Congress & Senate pukes (except for the doctors Paul – they are not pukes) are considered to be federal employees because they are on the federal payroll. The article suggested that their pay should come from their state government payrolls. I agree. I’ll bet if that happened, their pay and benefits would be cut because that would have to come out of state budgets. Chances are they would also be more inclined to listen much more closely to their constituents.

      And now Ovomit jumps into the middle of Wisconsin to rabble rouse with the unions. Last night I was watching PBS and they were showing a program about Jimma Carter (last week it was Ronald Reagan). I noticed some similarities between BO and JC. JC just wanted to make his mark as some sort of “peace ambassador”, butting in to allegedly bring Israel and Egypt together, while he ran America into the ground. He didn’t give a rat’s patootie about the American people. The economy then was just about as screwed up as it is now. Talk about history repeating. Now we have BO butting in telling the states what to do. Pardon my francais, but I don’t know who is the bigger a**hole – I’d say it is a close race……..

      • 45caliber

        If they were paid by the state they “served” they wouldn’t be able to control how much they were paid or what benefits they got either. Further, the states could each have a house in Washington, like the White House, where their reps could stay – and the reps wouldn’t be buying a place there and becoming D.C. reps rather than state reps.

        • Carlucci

          Good idea. But I don’t think the state should buy a house for reps, because most of them own homes in their states. Houses also have maintenance like yard care, which is another added expense. I think any housing provided should be something like a small condominium, where someone can sleep and shower. The doctors Paul are sharing a two bedroom condo. A lot of reps fly home on the weekends anyway, so why provide anything fancy?

      • bob wire

        Hmm? cause and effect is sometimes hard to get a grip on yet easy to overlook somethings while validation any one desired position.

        JC,BC, still contribute their time to the world community, and I truly believe RR and RN would have if they’d lived long enough and maintained good health and it not because they were GOP they are excluded for this list of Peace Makers.

        As for HB and WB, ? ~~~ well, I suppose there is still time for them to rise above their self interest.

        So! out of 6 presidents, only two have rose to the calling of world Peace Maker, that they are both Democrats, more a matter of happenstance and little to do with party affiliation.

        But! It’s not a requirement for me to feel as I “elect” to do ~~ is it?

        • Lewis Munn

          I never realized that our President was supposed to be a world peacemaker. I thought he was supposed to be handling running the country properly and executing the laws Congress made.

          Where in his job description is World Peacemake listed as a primary responsibility? Can he properly administrate our laws while he is off making peaces of nations?

          • bob wire

            Lewis Munn says:

            “I never realized that our President was supposed to be a world peacemaker.”

            I believe what they choose to do after leaving office purely a personal choice, some just enjoy chopping cedar,writing their memoirs and sitting under their women feet.

          • JC

            Lewis…”peacemaking” is just code for arranging compliance to US Interests…which is code for bringing them in line for globalism…it’s all an unConstitutional song and dance no matter how you view it. It’s none of our damned business….period!

  • Dale on the left coast

    Public Sector Unions are complete frauds . . . the fund Lieberal Politicians . . . and then negotiate “Sweetheart Contracts” with them . . . goes on everywhere. They get the best contracts money can buy . . . other people’s money.
    Solution . . . State, city and county employees should be paid the Average of similar jobs in the private sector, where Unions and Employers “Negotiate” with a little Common Sense . . . or end up Bankrupt!!!

  • 45caliber

    Reading these comments is insightful in one thing. You can tell who lives in the North and who doesn’t. I’ve heard of several strike actions up North that amused me in a way. In one, the firefighters in NYC were on strike and a man’s house caught fire. He was trying to put it out with a garden hose when some firefighters came by. One cut his hose in half because “he was trying to strike-break”.

    Here in the South, if that was done, the owner would have killed the man – along with anyone else who tried to stop him … even if he had had to borrow a gun to do it. He’d have been loaned the gun readily by almost everyone. And the jury would have turned him lose for doing it. Only in the North is pro-union sentiment so strong as to allow this.

    The comments here make it plain who believes that unions should have that power – and who believes that unions shouldn’t have it.

    I would like to see SEUI come to some place in the South and start roughing up some elderly, for instance. They would be lucky to get to their bus and get out of town without being tarred and feathered first – if not shot.

  • 45caliber

    Another thing … I don’t like unions now. They have outlived their usefullness at this time. So don’t get me wrong.

    They could not have gotten these high wages and benefits without the help of those in office. The state people who were supposed to be negotiating with the union made very little attempt to refuse their demands. The same for many companies (particularly auto companies). They had the money coming in or they could raise their income (raise taxes) to provide it so why worry about the fact that they were getting too much money and benefits and overloading the system?

    • bob wire

      There was a time that I would agree with you about Unions. ~ But I come to understand they as just like anything else, only as good as the people that administer to them. ~ There is places still today that they are needed and there is places where abuse is high.

      I guess, what concerns me most, is this talk about unfunded pension and these stories of some bring down 75 grand and more per year. That’s a lot of money for a working man that doesn’t have to place his chestnuts in the fire everyday and worry with capturing market shares, paying quarterly taxes and making a payroll. ~ What kind of job would ever command that kind of money?

      • bob wire

        Sea duty, moving about the world, hardship tours excluded of course!

        If you can drive to work and back, pet your dog everyday, play with the kids momma and sleep in your own bed every nite and bring down 75 to 80 grand, that’s just too good to be true.

        • 45caliber

          You are right.

      • 45caliber

        The real problem with the pension plans is that either someone spent the money (as they did SS money) instead of letting it save up or they never bothered to collect it from the workers (the government will pay it) and didn’t bother to save for the cost either.

        When you are dealing with thousand and perhaps millions of workers, the funds mount up very quickly. And when it reaches large numbers, even many of the best people let their greed get the better of them. “No one will notice if I take just a little.” “It would be okay if I used some of it to help others (for votes). After all, there will be more people paying into it in years to come.”

  • jopa

    45cal. I have driven through towns in the north where the unions are and towns in the south where they are not.The towns in the north have beautiful homes that even have windows and doors on them and porches with all the steps on them.The people go to the grocery store for food and don’t have to work their gardens to survive.Sure there are some nice homes in the south also but drive for awhile where the blacktop ends and it sure doesn’t look like the America that a person sees on television.If you want to work for $5.00 an hour so be it but not me.Unions are not the whole problem and it is mainly corporate greed and the big money controlling government and the little guy not being heard.

    • 45caliber

      I’ll stay down here. The people here are more friendly even if they may be poor. Evidently you didn’t visit much of the South since it isn’t all that different than what I’ve seen of the North.

      • libertytrain

        :)

    • libertytrain

      I have a beautiful home not large, shop in grocery stores and my neighbors have beautiful homes and shop in grocery stores as well. And I don’t have wheels on my home either. I do recall being up North just past the quaint trailer homes, somewhere down the road from the packed and unkempt ghettos, where the homes were so big and glitzy to keep up with the “Joneses” – on lots that were small and barren of trees – and there was no furniture in most of the rooms cause they charged up all their mortgages to build the biggest house whether they could afford it or not. And I reckon, there are a lot of empty homes now as a result of the foreclosures on folks who bought more than they could.

      • JeffH

        libertytrain, I never understood the importance of “keeping up with the Joneses”. I was raised to think differently, to enjoy what you can afford and make the most of it. To hell with the “Joneses”, they don’t pay my bills, feed me or transport me because I can do all of it myself. LOL!

        • libertytrain

          I’ve had a hard enough time keeping up with me let alone those Jones people. :) We are do-it-yourselfers, always have been even when it was uncool, so if my house is beautiful it’s cause we made it so. I’m frugal about so many things and have made my world pretty by utilizing others castoffs – and old stuff I’m lucky enough to dig up.

          • libertytrain

            And your mom was an artist and I am an artist so we really don’t grasp those Jones people anyway.

          • JeffH

            libertytrain, thanks for remembering. If you’re anything like my mom, if she couldn’t build it or make it, she probably didn’t need it. If she did need something, she always found a way to get it without overextending herself. Ahhh, pleasant memories…still!

          • libertytrain

            Jeff, I’m sure I would have enjoyed knowing your mom as well.

          • JeffH

            I think she would have enjoyed knowing you.

          • libertytrain

            Thanks.

      • Carlucci

        Same here – I have a nice contemporary home here in Texas with no mortgage in a fantastic neighborhood with great neighbors. Close to all kinds of shopping. Between two major freeways. Huge back yard with a pool (although I’m not crazy about the pool – although it is great in the summer time), and I can grow a garden if I want to.

        I wasn’t impressed with the homes I saw in New York (my step-daughter lives there). When I watch HGTV, I am blown away by the prices there and in the Chicago area. You could buy a brand new mini-mansion in or near the city where I live for around $225,000.

        And what about those fabulous homes in Savannah? What a gorgeous city. I know those homes aren’t cheap, but I’d much rather live in the South than the east coast……

        • libertytrain

          I don’t remember if you’ve said where you live. I’m in beautiful North Carolina.

          • Carlucci

            I live in Texas – born and raised in Houston. I’ve lived here all my life except for three years in Saudi Arabia.

          • bob wire

            The part of Texas I live in is not noted for it’s beauty but it views,space and seasons. Sometimes pretty but always home.

            I enjoyed traveling and working in all parts of Texas. Sea Side is not anything to boost about, it’s windy, sandy, salty and wet.

          • libertytrain

            I’ve been in Texas a couple times, just passing through (which takes a couple days :) ) but I have not been to Houston. I’ve heard it’s a great place to live.

  • Dennis

    The biggest thing out of this whole mess that pisses me off is the children.They are being used and most dont even realize it.These teachers and union,in my opinion, are in the wrong and then to add insult to injury ,use the children for their own agendas.You wanna stage a walk out fine but dont use young people to help in your dirty work.You all should be ashamed.

    • JeffH

      Dennis, that is what progressives/liberals do, use the children and seniors as a tool, not love them as they are. How often do you hear or read about the liberals accusing someone, used to be Republicans but is now conservatives, that speaks out against a social program as hating or not caring about “the children” or “seniors”. There are several on this website that use it all to frequently.

      • eddie47d

        Since you assume they receive such a big paycheck maybe they should have put their kids in daycare. Or maybe with the cost of living they couldn’t afford to put their kids in daycare. Spin away Jeff and Dennis in all your assumptions.

        • JeffH

          ROFLMAO!…you are just everything short of brilliant! LMAO!

          eddie, do you drive? Just wonderin’.

          • JC

            Good ol eddie the spin Doctor…when he’s got nothing to say he just “makes sh** up”…now he pretends to know what you are thinking…Twit!

        • JeffH

          eddie, I assume they make a big paycheck? Are you drunk or on drugs? Praytell, where did you get that from? Quit babbling, you’re beginning to sound more and more like a parrot!

          • bob wire

            Rankings
            Average Teacher Salary Rank: 20th
            Starting Teacher Salary Rank: 49th
            Salary raise last year: 4.7%
            Salary raise over 10 years: 21.5%
            TeacherPortal Salary Comfort Score
            28th
            friendliest state for teachers

            How do salaries grow in Wisconsin?
            Starting Salary: $25,222
            Average Salary: $46,390
            Student/Teacher Ratios in Wisconsin, 2006
            Number of Teachers: 59,552
            Number of Students: 875,414
            Students per Teacher: 14.7

            http://teacherportal.com/salary/Wisconsin-teacher-salary

            this doesn’t support your argument. ~

          • JeffH

            bob, do tell me how your response in any way corresponds with my comment? Please do tell me! It doesn’t, but you’ve just assumed that it did.

          • eddie47d

            More useless attacks from the wise one Jeff. Several of you said that union folks make too much. You got it now big boy!

          • JeffH

            eddie…WRONG AGAIN! I’ve never said the rank & file union members make too much, EVER! Bob’s answer has no bearing on my comments at all. Why do you always have to distort the truth(LIE)?

            In your case, once a fool, always a fool!

  • http://com i41

    jopa, I was born in the USA and grew up and educated here. I have alweays enjoyed crossing ubion picket lines, since all union dinks have to have a leader before doing anything, and f–k off more than they work. Every union slub is a one trick wonder, just like you are a knuckle head who will do what ever Nazi Traitor socialist George Soros and the marxist muslim moron tells you what is fact and which way to go. Too stupid to think for your self or get a job. This is a free country to go on any public through ways unimpeded. You union socialist democrats who also are all queer loving scrots of little value. If I know a company was looking for good help with multi endorsements, and could do more than flog the log like union idoits do while sitting on their azzes. I give scabs on worthless union pukes when they try to impede my ingress and egresss from a job site. Up north we hate unions and don’t appreciate their stupid mentallity for voting for the crossbred marxist muslim moron into office. Union memebers are like baby birds, all mouth and a–, worthless as hell and stink up any thing they sit on.

  • Lewis Munn

    My one brush with unions and administrators was enough, Proved that neither the teachers union nor the school administration cared for the student, only for making money off them. There may be good unions, there may be necessary unions, but I have not come across any personally.

    I had no respect left before I left when they deliberately dumbed down the education to keep the kids in school longer and charge them more.

    A pox on both their houses.

  • http://FarTooMuch.Info Russ Lemon

    In a union state, there should be two teachers unions. And they should both bid for the contract of teaching for the year.

  • Mick

    blackhawk says:
    February 22, 2011 at 9:47 am

    Fire all the teachers and remove the liciences from all the phony doctors plus bring ethic charges on all the democrats that walked away.Politics need a lesson.Give it to them.
    ************************************

    blackhawk………………..I am with you 100%. it’s the only way to clean up the filth that plagued America for many decades.

  • Mick

    blackhawk says:
    February 22, 2011 at 9:47 am

    Fire all the teachers and remove the liciences from all the phony doctors plus bring ethic charges on all the democrats that walked away.Politics need a lesson.Give it to them.***********************************************************

    blackhawk…I am 100% with you……
    Its way pass time for these thugs to find out what it is to go without, they have been pampered for way too long and don’t appreciate the sacrifices of others as long as they get more than their share….Many hard working folks could benefit from the firing of those greedy lazy bums and bring some dignity back to the work force…….

  • Stuart Ashley

    Hi All;
    I have some experience in how School Districts function. A while back I was Construction Manager on a $12,000,000 high school renovation project. I will only say that it was not in Wisconsin. Now you need to understand I did not work for the contractor. I was retained by the School District to ensure the contractor met his contractural obligations. In any event, here are some of the things I learned:
    1. The School District was very administration-heavy. The Administrators (non-teaching staff) occupied a separate building that was remote from the various high, middle, and elementary schools in the School District. There were, in my subjective opinion, too many Administrators for the size of the School District. And there seemed to be a disconnect between Administration and teaching staff.
    2. Maintenance was also disconnected from the facilities they were charged to maintain. They were housed in a large maintenance facitity that was remote from Administration and from any of the schools. To put things in perspective, each high school (and there were five) housed between 1000 and 2000 students. But none of the schools had an on-board maintenance person. If something needed to be done (broken pipe?), a Maintenance Work Order was sent to Maintenance and it was a 1/2 to 1 hour drive from Maintenance to the school; and the same back again. Lots of opportunity for exploitation.
    3. Now here’s where it gets interesting. Neither the teachers nor the administrators had any actual control over the students. The project was supposed to be complete before school opened after Labor Day. And it almost was. All the contractor had left to do was the “Punch List”. That’s the list of small problems and touch-ups that occur at the end of any project. Bear in mind the mature of this project had been to upgrade the school: modernize the heating system and add insulation for greater comfort, new roof to stop multiple roof leaks, new paint inside in cheerful colors, new carpets for comfort and noise reduction. All things that benefitted the students and the teachers by making school a nicer place physically.
    4. So what happened? On the first day of school, whice the contractor was still legally obligated to finish up and still had small teams finishing off punch list items; the kids started taking apart the school. They left trash around every night. They marked and gouged the new walls. They sprung open the doors on the new lockers and grafittized the surfaces. Every day it got a little worse. The contractor couldn’t put back together each day the damages the kids did during the previous day. I protested to the Principal, explaining that the contractor had an obligation to finish off his punch list, not repair new damages. The Principal indicated that he couldn’t do much about it. The students in this particular high school had traditionally been “spirited”. So I went to Administration, but they “couldn’t” do anything either. Eventually, the contractor pulled off the job.
    5. What can we learn from this?
    a. The various factions don’t work together.
    b. Maintenance and Administration are inefficient and over-manned.
    c. Nobody has control of the students.
    d. Nobody can do anything about it.
    6. And I’ll bet, if this state needed to reduce it’s budget, the reaction of the Administrators, Maintenance personnel, and teachers would be exactly like in Wisconsin!
    Cheers! Stu.

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