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The Real Thanksgiving Story

November 26, 2010 by  

The Real Thanksgiving Story

Did you know that our Pilgrim forefathers tried communism when they first landed at Plymouth Rock?

How’s that for a dramatic beginning to a story? Years ago, when I used to give a lot of talks to high-school classes, this was one of my favorites. It always got the students’ attention. And I have to admit, I also enjoyed seeing some liberal teachers get so upset with me they almost lost their lunches.

Here’s the story I told those students in those long-ago presentations. The Pilgrims who arrived at Plymouth Rock in 1620 were incredibly brave and hardy souls. They were motivated by the noblest of virtues. They vowed, each and every one, to be as selfless as possible — to always put the needs of the group first. They agreed to own everything in common and to share everything equally.

And their naïve piety almost killed them all.

We all know how the adventure began. A group of devout Christians, seeking religious freedom for themselves and eager to "advance the Gospel of the Kingdom of Christ" in the New World, set sail from Plymouth, England in 1620. An investment consortium known as the Merchant Adventurers of London provided the expenses for the trip, including chartering the Mayflower and its 40-man crew.

The deal was simple: The Pilgrims agreed to establish a colony in what is now northern Virginia, where they would plant crops, fish the waters and hunt in the forests. They would return a certain percentage of each year’s bounty to London until their debt had been repaid.

Things went wrong from the start. First, the syndicate changed the deal, drastically reducing the amount they would loan the Pilgrims. The brave adventurers were forced to sell many of their own possessions, and much of their provisions, to pay for the trip. As a result, they landed in the New World badly short of supplies.

Next, the small ship they had purchased in Holland, which was to accompany them to America so they could fish the waters off the coast, had to be abandoned in England. Shortly after they set sail, the ship, badly misnamed the Speedwell, became "open and leakie as a sieve," as its captain reported. They returned to Dartmouth, where the boat was dry-docked for three weeks as repairs were made.

But to no avail. After leaving Dartmouth, the group sailed less than 300 miles when the Speedwell reported it "must bear up or sink at sea." This time the ships put in at Plymouth, England, where it was decided to go on without the Speedwell. On Sept. 16, 1620, the Mayflower set out alone to cross the Atlantic.

A month later, when they had reached the halfway point, fierce storms battered the ship and threatened the lives of passengers and crew. Many wanted to turn back for England. But if they abandoned the journey, they would lose everything they had invested. The Pilgrims decided to trust in God and sail on.

Despite the storms, the hazards, the crowding and the poor food, only one Pilgrim died during the voyage, a young servant. His death was balanced by the birth of a son to Stephen and Elizabeth Hopkins, who named their child Oceanus.

There were 102 passengers on board the Mayflower — 50 men, 20 women and 32 children — along with a crew of 40. The captain set a course along the 42nd parallel, a bearing that would carry him to Cape Cod. From there he intended to swing south and follow the coast to northern Virginia.

A little more than two months later, on Nov. 19, land was finally sighted and the captain turned the ship south toward Virginia. However, they soon encountered such "dangerous shoals and roaring breakers" that they turned back to Massachusetts. It was then that the grumblings of dissent turned into a full-fledged roar. Many of the passengers insisted on landing in present-day Massachusetts, where "none had power to command them."

The Pilgrim leaders decided to meet the explosive situation by asking each male on board, except for the crew, to sign a formal document that would lay "the first foundation of their government in this place." Thus the Mayflower Compact was born.

The Pilgrims were a diverse lot. Many of them were illiterate. Yet in creating the Mayflower Compact, they showed an extraordinary political maturity. They agreed to establish a government by the consent of the governed, with just and equal laws for all. Each adult male, regardless of his station in life — gentleman, commoner or servant — would have an equal vote in deciding the affairs of the colony. Of the 65 men and boys on board, all but 24 signed the agreement. The only ones who did not were the children of those adults who did sign, or men who were too sick to do so.

The first decision made under the covenant was to abandon efforts to reach Virginia and instead to settle in New England. The first explorers landed at Plymouth on Dec. 21, 1620. Weather delays kept the majority from seeing their new home for nearly two weeks. On Jan. 2, 1621, work began on the first building they would erect — a storehouse.

Because provisions were so scanty, it was decided that the land would be worked in common, produce would be owned in common and goods would be rationed equally. Not unlike the society Karl Marx envisioned of "from each according to his ability, to each according to his need."

Unfortunately, thanks to illness, injury and attitude, the system did not work. Pilferage from the storehouse became common. Suspicions of malingering were muttered. Over the course of that first, harsh winter, nearly half of the colonists perished. Four families were wiped out completely; only five of 18 wives survived. Of the 29 single men, hired hands and servants, only 10 were alive when spring finally came.

The colonists struggled desperately for two more years. When spring arrived in April 1623, virtually all of their provisions were gone. Unless that year’s harvest improved, they feared few would survive the next winter. The Pilgrim leaders decided on a bold course. The colony would abandon its communal approach and permit each person to work for his own benefit, not for the common good.

Here is how the governor of the colony, William Bradford, explained what happened then. This is from his marvelously readable memoir (if you can make adjustments for the Old English spellings), History of Plimoth Plantation:

The experience that was had in this commone course and condition, tried sundrie years, and that amongst godly and sober men, may well evince the vanitie of that conceite of Plato & other ancients, applauded by some of later times; — that the taking away of properties, and bringing it in communitie into a commone wealth, would make them happy and flourishing; as if they were wiser than God.

For this communitie (so farr as it was) was found to breed much confusion & discontent, and retard much employment that would have been to their benefite and comforte. For yet young men that were most able and fitte for labor & services did repine that they should spend their time & strength to worke for other men’s wives and children with out any recompense.

Can you imagine? Some of the youngest and healthiest men in the colony complained that they were working like dogs “for other men’s wives and children.” Sounds like the situation in America today, where the taxes taken from those who work support many millions of others who don’t.

After three years of noble failure, the colonists had had enough. Once they replaced communal efforts with individual responsibility, the differences were dramatic — and life-saving.

Men went into the fields earlier and stayed later. In many cases, their wives and even their children (some barely past the toddler stage) worked right alongside them. More acres were planted, more trees were felled, more houses were built and more game was slaughtered because of one simple change: People were allowed to keep the fruits of their own labors.

In that simple sentence you will find the solution to all of the world’s poverty. Stop taking what others have earned. Let people keep the fruits of their own labors. Then get out of the way and watch the incredible abundance they will produce.

On this Thanksgiving weekend, some 390 years after the Pilgrims celebrated the first of this uniquely American holiday, let us remember the sacrifices they made, the devotion they showed and the lessons they learned.

Until next time, keep some powder dry.

–Chip Wood

Chip Wood

is the geopolitical editor of PersonalLiberty.com. He is the founder of Soundview Publications, in Atlanta, where he was also the host of an award-winning radio talk show for many years. He was the publisher of several bestselling books, including Crisis Investing by Doug Casey, None Dare Call It Conspiracy by Gary Allen and Larry Abraham and The War on Gold by Anthony Sutton. Chip is well known on the investment conference circuit where he has served as Master of Ceremonies for FreedomFest, The New Orleans Investment Conference, Sovereign Society, and The Atlanta Investment Conference.

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  • Ann Wood

    Hey! What a great idea – every man (person?) is given several acres of beautiful forest land, clean streams of water, unspoiled ocean front,
    basic tools from the storehouse (?) allowed to defecate in the woods,
    smoke weed (if he grows his own),kill wildlife at will, make his kids
    do what HE wants and be a fully recognized law unto himself. Later on
    when he proves his ability to be adept at taking advantage of both nature and humans we will give him a few native Americans to teach him
    real skills. What a plan.

    • http://yahoo Robert

      You were right the first time, when you said “man.” The bible, gives man the right, to be the leader, and the constitution, confirms this idea. The bible, also allows slavery, and the constitution allows this. So, how many repukes, want to follow the constitution?

      • Frank

        The Constitution does not allow nor restrict slavery because slavery is not a governmental institution. And clearly you are part of the uneducated masses or you would understand what the phrase “man” refers to. It is not male as in sex but rather mankind of which both male and female are part. I have had the privilege of working for many a female who were clear leaders and smarter than you.

        • Vicki

          The Constitution clearly hints at slavery. “We the People….” Other than that the WHOLE purpose of the Constitution is to LIMIT what powers “we the people” can talk ourselves into giving to a small group that represent us. And to limit the restrictions we can place on each other thru government force.

          • Jana

            Wow Ann W.,
            Lets count how many times a person can miss the point.

          • JeffH

            Just thought I’d repost this information about ROBERT at the top of this thread also.

            Personal Liberty Support says:
            November 26, 2010 at 12:18 pm
            Dear Personal Liberty Family,
            The person who has been posting as ROBERT, has also been posting as TRUTH, THIRD PARTY blackman, ROBERT’S MOM and booker. If you will follow the thread you will see that he has been working to disrupt conversation on the site. Please ignore him.
            Thanks.

          • Vicki

            JeffH Thank you for the information however that person (PLS) has not been validated. As such it could be anyone even Robert posting. The only way I know to validate that person is for Bob L to come on and do so.

            Bob L is a trusted source for me because I trust the moderators to remove anyone pretending to be Bob L.

          • Vigilant

            Until the 13th and 14th Amendments, there was nothing in the Constitution that made slavery an illegal practice. Most of the Founders, and even the South, realized that the “abominable institution” was destined for eventual extinction. It of course took a devastating civil war to rectify the injustice done to the slaves.

            When the people constituted themselves, they excluded slaves, loyalists and Native Americans from the purview of Constitutionally guaranteed rights. The importation of slaves was prohibited after 1808, but not outlawed. The early and increasingly bitter debates were about the propriety of extending slavery into the new territories.

            The sad fact of the matter is that no union of 13 states was possible without retaining slavery in the South. Founders such as John Adams and Ben Franklin were antislavery, but they were also pragmatists who realized the South would never ratify the Constitution if slavery were immediately outlawed.

            The three-fifths compromise is to this day badly misunderstood by many people to mean that the slaves were considered 3/5 of a person. In reality, the compromise was an antislavery measure (explanation will follow if anyone’s interested).

          • Vicki

            /raises hand

            Me. I’m interested. Especially if there are cites to follow.

          • libertytrain

            Vicki as you said the moderators would remove anyone pretending to be Bob Livingston – they would also remove anyone pretending to be them — so you kind of answered your own question.

          • Vigilant

            Vicki.

            Thanks for asking!

            When the Constitutional debate turned to the matter of representation in the House of Representatives, the South wanted to have a one-for-one basis for calculation, i.e., they wanted every slave counted as a person for determining population (it’s the main reason we do a census every ten years).

            The Southern Founders had a great interest in perpetuating slavery in their own states, and were prescient enough to know that they needed as many representatives in Congress as possible, to urge for extension of slavery into the new territories that would become states one day.

            The white population of the Southern states could not match the population of the northern industrialized states, and in some states the blacks outnumbered the whites. Therefore, the south wanted to bolster their numbers in Congress by including the slave population.

            The Northern Founders said, wait a minute, you can’t have it both ways. You consider slaves as chattel or “property” and unworthy of Constitutional rights, yet you want them considered as “persons” solely for determining the number of southern Reps. in Congress. If the North had had its way in the argument, the slaves would have been counted as zero, thereby reducing Southern representation on any votes regarding the future of slavery.

            Both sides, cognizant that no Union could be created if the argument remained unsettled, decided on the compromise that, for every 5 slaves counted, only three would be used for determining Congressional representation. Article I, Section 2 reads (in part):

            “Representatives and direct Taxes shall be apportioned among the several States which may be included within this Union, according to their respective Numbers, which shall be determined by adding to the whole Number of free Persons, including those bound to Service for a Term of Years, and excluding Indians not taxed, three fifths of all other Persons.”

          • Al Sieber

            JeffH, thanks for the info. I won’t respond to him again.

          • Vicki

            Thanks Vigilant. That is pretty much how I remember it.

        • http://none sean moor

          frank,your a sellout. I bet you do what ever your wife tells you to do. Thats right…TELLS YOU TO DO!!! dont ask you.TELLS you. so, just stick your head back up your wife’s ass.until she is ready to TELL you what to do next!!!!

          • Karolyn

            What the frack? What is YOUR problem?

          • http://?? Joe H.

            sean moor,
            my wife happens to be a manager and I have talked to people that work for her and got nothing but the best from them! I find her to be a good person of good character, not always the easiest to get along with but then neither am I. I find you to be a very disrespectful and probably progressive person with that last remark and if you are half the man you think you are you will appologize to Frank for the remark about his wife!!

        • BOB

          Framk is on target, mike keller as well, the rest are the product of the public school system. We must change that to reflect the real family values of this country.. We the people must become rightously angry and say it is wrong when it is wrong. Demand the country come back to the values of the founding fathers…..

          • Carole Howell

            Rewriting history eh? lot of that going on and has been going on. Kings and Queens here and there have taken liberties of the bible, changing this or that to reflect their views and beliefs.

            But the truth is out there, it cannot be hidden or completely suppressed not matter what the powers that be try.

        • Jana

          Folks,
          As you go through and read Robert’s replies, you will see true ignorance and true hatred in action.
          WOW, this is an example of a sad pathetic person.

          • Kate8

            Jana – My thoughts, too. Reading Robert’s posts these past few days made me rather ill, actually. He is an angry, pathetic, truly hateful person who only came on this thread with nothing but vile insults.

            Really, I just couldn’t do anything but ignore him and hope he’d go away.

        • Bruce D.

          If my memory serves me of reading years ago many did not like slavery and wanted to outlaw it in the Constitution. That was not acceptable to the South but it was agreed that the importation of slaves would be outlawed after 20 years of the signing of the Constitution. That you will find in the Constitution I believe. If you want the real truth you need to find books that were written in that time period or as early as possible. Progressives like Ted Turner and TBS like to spin history according to their progressive ideology and dislike of the American heritage.

          • John D. in CA

            For those interested regarding the Constitution on slavery, the prohibition is actually in the 13th amendment:

            “Section 1. Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.”

      • Vigilant

        Robert, you are obviously the ignorant product of today’s public so-called “education.”

        Had your left wing teachers correctly imparted to you the nature of the Constitution, you would not have made such a rash statement.

        The Constitution does not allow slavery; that was corrected with the 13th and 14th Amendments. I suppose you never heard of something called the Civil War and the Emancipation Proclamation?

        Women were given the right to vote with the 19th Amendment.

        Are you saying you have no obligation to honor the rule of law and the Constitution?

        • http://yahoo Robert

          I’m saying repukes want to return to the constitution, which is a flawed document. Liberals have the view, that the constitution is not a perfect document, it is a living document. So, to return to the constitution, requires allowing slavery again, and women would not have the right to vote. How many of you repukes, really want this?

          • Vigilant

            “So, to return to the constitution, requires allowing slavery again, and women would not have the right to vote. How many of you repukes, really want this?”

            Your logic is as deficient as your education. The Constitution is DEFINED by its basic articles PLUS the Amendments. To assert that anyone in this country would want to return to slavery and disenfranchisement is as ridiculous as saying that Nancy Pelosi is a conservative.

            What’s more, you KNOW that what you are saying is a lie. Grow up, sonny.

          • Vicki

            Robert you should investigate more closely. There is nothing in the Constitution permitting slavery. It does however STRONGLY LIMIT what powers we can give to the government. Those of us who propose returning to it are simply proposing returning to the government limited by the Constitution.

          • Vicki

            With respect to women and voting the 19th amendment is part of the Constitution so why would returning to the Constitution cause us to not be able to vote? (Any bets on an actual or attempted answer from robert? ;) )

          • Irena

            Well, robert, if you hate our flawed Constitution that much-even with slaves being freed, and women having the right to vote years ago-you can always move to a country that has no rights at all. Do not let the door hit you on the way out, as I am sure there are plenty of other ignorant folk such as yourself ready to replace you. The Constitution is a living document. And although it was written by men with clay feet, I think it is the best document in the world. These writers were far more wise than many today. If you do not like the Constitution, you are more than welcome to go to elsewhere. For there are plenty who are willing to stay behind and defend the very document you despise.

          • Angel Wannabe

            Robert, aside from declaring the Constitution to be “FLAWED” What then, is your perfect idea of Freedom??

          • http://eddie47d@gmail.com eddie47d

            Vickie; If we went back to the original Constitution there wouldn’t be that right for you to vote,plain and simple. He is only trying to point out that it is living document and does change throughout the years.

          • Vicki

            Eddie47d. There wouldn’t be any NEED for me to vote. Being a free person I would not be affected by laws other than the obvious that I shouldn’t kill, maim, hurt, steal. Common morals of the people who founded this country.

            Once the Government got out of the chains of the Constitution it became VERY important for women to vote. Even blonds like me :)

          • alpha-lemming

            Flawed document…. flawed document???? I know I’ve heard a famous (infamous?) Dem utter those exact same words within the last several years. Maybe on a Chicago talk-show?? Just can’t remember.

            Anyway, we love our Constitution (and the amendment process) and it IS the reason we became a super-power in less than a couple centuries vs. Europe, the middle and far East which have been around for millenia. It’s obvious this founding parchment and it’s enumerated form of government makes you very unhappy. Well…. we want you to be happy. I’m sure fellow posters would gladly make donations to purchase you a one-way ticket to the country of your choice (Cuba, China, N. Korea etc.) where you could thrive in the lap of communist luxury and laugh at “all us workin’ suckers”. No longer would evil capitalists be able to break into your house at night and steal your last can of pork-n-beans. Consider it our Christmas present to you… we DO want you to be happy… I just don’t think that’s possible here in the USA.

          • http://?? Joe H.

            Alpha-lemming,
            Would that famous politician be Jerry Springer??? After all, he was the mayor of Cincinatti till they almost kicked him out of town!!! He is of Jewish decent and allowed a guy on his short lived radio show to say that the Nazis followed the geneva convention to the letter without calling the person out on it!!! worthless skin on a more worthless skeleton!!

        • Dave

          I’m not saying that I agree with what Robert is saying but if the constitution is perfection in writing then why did it take ammendments to the constitution to allow women to vote or to abolish slavery. That is just proof that it’s a living document. Also, people like Rand Paul would like to see the 14th amendment removed. How do you explain that. Just like the Bible the constitution can be interpreted to mean whatever you force it to. Also, this story is ridiculous and is typical of the author. It is a plain old propaganda piece. Interpreting unrelated history to try to prove a point today that makes no sense. The situation of 40 people with no government has no relevance today. He also leaves out that if everyone is only concerned with themselves and not the community then eventually the more powerful trample those below them. The reason we have regulations on business now is because we tried not doing that and the results were horrid. How quickly we forget the mamed children working in unsafe factories or the Robber Barons or the Bosses in NYC. Unchecked “Capitalism” breeds it’s own tyranny and permanent ruling class.

          • Vicki

            Very easy test. Were the maimed childeren forced to work in the unsafe factories? If so by whom and how? (Be specific).

            We’ll start there.

          • booker

            THE 14 TH AMENDMENT SHOULD BE REMOVED,IF YOU EVER READ IT,IT’S FOR THE BABY’S BORN INTO SLAVERY.THEY WOULD BECOME CITIZENS,NOTHING ABOUT ILLEGAL ENTRY TO THIS NATION.

          • booker

            EVERY WRITTEN ACCOUNT,OR PRACTICED ACCOUNT OF CAPITALISM THAT BECOMES WHAT YOU CALL UNCHECKED IS DUE TO ONLY GOVERNMENT INVOLVEMENT.

          • http://eddie47d@gmail.com eddie47d

            Thanks Dave for I thought the article wasn’t totally upfront either. There has been too much of a pollyanna feel to all the Pilgrim stories . It was certainly more tragedy than triumph and it could have been more disastrous that first year if they hadn’t stuck together. Few can survive in the dead of winter under alot of circumstances. These Pilgrims didn’t have any shelter and the weather kept them from planting.After two years their homes were built and crops were planted. That is a big difference where they could survive on their own.

          • Bruce D.

            I agree with you on one point Dave. The American heritage does not make sense to progressives. They belive in the collective and any “facts” presented to them in opposition is considered spin. No one is saying you cannot change the Constitution with an Amendment Dave. We just do not like it being done by judges and government lobbyists.

          • john

            Would you be so kind as to cite your source quoting Rand Paul wanting to remove the entire 14th amendment? Seems to me you might be stretching the truth a bit. Maybe even telling direct lie.

          • Vigilant

            Dave said, “but if the Constitution is perfection in writing then why did it take amendments to the Constitution to allow women to vote or to abolish slavery. That is just proof that it’s a living document.”

            Who said that the original articles and Bill of Rights was “perfect?” To be sure, it left the institution of slavery intact, knowing full well it would cause a civil war at some later date. And other issues such as women’s right to suffrage, were not considered. You’ll find no one arguing that the original was “perfect.”

            But so what? The beauty of that document was that it left up to the sovereign people of the nation to modify its provisions through the process of amendment. And, those sovereign individuals, not government or any other power, revised the Constitution over time to make it more just.

            You are confusing the meaning of the phrase “living document” with the way that phrase is used today. When liberals use the term, they mean that we don’t have to consider the document to be strictly interpreted, but that we can feel free to apply to liberal feelings social justice, international protocols and agreements when adjudicating.

            Conservatives are “strict constructionists” of Constitutional letter and intent. Justices Scalia, Alito, Thomas and Roberts are the more or less strict constructionists in interpreting Constitutional law. Ruth Bader-Ginsberg is notorious for dispensing with almost any reference to the Constitution in her boneheaded rulings, as are a large number of Circuit Court judges (re: 9th Circuit).

            It has been largely through the perception that the Constitution is a “living document” that individual rights have been denied, and that the intrusive government has become even larger and even more intrusive.

          • iowaheretic

            Dave, I agree with you. He also forgot to mention that the great Pilgrims (Puritans) burned innocent women and men alive simply for using freewill and freethought (witchcraft), and a lot of christians don’t know this, but they actually outlawed the celebration of Christmas to be practiced in the Colonies for almost 200 years! I could care less about the fake birth of Jesus, but I don’t see why anyone would want to use these people as any kind of role models

          • Vicki

            iowaheretic says:
            “Dave, I agree with you. He also forgot to mention that the great Pilgrims (Puritans) burned innocent women and men alive simply for using freewill and freethought (witchcraft), and a lot of christians don’t know this, but they actually outlawed the celebration of Christmas to be practiced in the Colonies for almost 200 years! I could care less about the fake birth of Jesus, but I don’t see why anyone would want to use these people as any kind of role models”

            Liberals murder people every day and you want us to hold them up as role models?

            Or perhaps you are confusing the acts of a few in a group with the entire group? Not surprising. People do it all the time.

          • iowaheretic

            Vicki; James Arness and Lemmy Kilmister are my only role models.

      • http://persoaliberty.com Mike W.

        Robert:
        You are one misguieded person and as a few people pointed out you seem to be a product of our misguided public education sytem . You are wrong in all of your statement’s and perhap’s as sugested you might be happyier someplace elese. As well is Ann Woods maybe you two should go together and find some place that would suit you better .I doubt you would be able to have any of your wrong and misguied opinions as you can here but at least you wouldnt be here . People like you are what is wrong with this country even though you are aloud to have your opinions and thought’s it is better to remember children are better off being seen than heard sometimes and this time I think that best applies to you two …

      • http://www.boblivingstonletter.com/ Bob Livingston

        Dear Robert,

        While we value dissenting opinion, your ad hominem attacks and name calling are not appreciated. I am glad that you are a subscriber to Personal Liberty Digest, but I’m terribly sorry that you are so bitter. I do believe that if you will continue to read the content that appears here you will find that, though times are bad, hope does exist. I will remain optimistic that you can learn a better way than the path you have been following. However, I must insist that you confine yourself to discussing the merits of ideas and refrain from mindless name-calling. Please take my suggestions as constructive, and thanks so much for your consideration.

        All the best,
        Bob

        • http://yahoo Robert

          Where is your outrage and concern, Bob Livingston, when posts attack Liberals, Progressives, Democrats, and Obama, through lies, misquotes, misspellings, and ad hominem attacks? I have been offended, many times, by the posts here. These posts, show the hypocrisy, of all the one-sided arguments of the conservative posters, when they want to ignore legitimate facts.

          Where is the outrage, when Chip Wood says, “Until next time, keep some powder dry.”
          Keep some powder dry for whom? Maybe me, since I don’t agree with conservative principles?

          Facts are not stubborn things, they are real, tangible truths, to be embraced, studied, and used for better decisions tomorrow.

          Ellen Goodman said: “There is a sense that we don’t need science or editing or fact-checking, as long as we have crowd sourcing. We don’t have to build opinion on facts; we can build facts on opinions.”

          Facts should not be twisted, misquoted, or used out of context, to further the ideals and beliefs, of a single party–Democrat, or Republican.

          • Vicki

            Very good Robert. We knew you could do it. Your response to Bob is a good example of disagreement without any name calling.

            Now for practice give us ONE twisted fact (your opinion at least) and we will see if we can help un-twist it.

          • Jana

            Vicki,
            Personal Liberty said that Robert goes by Robert, TRUTH, Third Party, Roberts Mom, and booker.
            There really must be something wrong with a person that is working so hard to be this deceptive. He isn’t all there, and at best he is a liar. He carries on conversations with himself. We are asked to ignore him.

          • http://eddie47d@gmail.com eddie47d

            Jana; Do you have access to Personal Liberties files to be able to make that claim? I didn’t know we could do that?

          • Vicki

            Robert writes:
            “I have been offended”

            Correct you CHOSE to be offended. Stop it.

          • Vicki

            Jana says:
            “Personal Liberty said that Robert goes by Robert, TRUTH, Third Party, Roberts Mom, and booker.”

            Someone posting claiming to be Personal Liberty Support made such an assertion. I have not seen validation yet.

          • libertytrain

            Vicki – it was Personal Liberty Support – Bob let’s them answer these things when necessary – as well. I still believe there is two working this name right now -

          • Mr. P

            Robert, you have to actually be able to read, and also understand what you are reading. Ellen Goodman is just another commie-pinko-bedwetting socialist like your self.. Always looking for a handout from the working class in the USA.

            I bet you could get a job as a TSA agent, groping young girls and old men.

      • Mr. P

        Its always entertaining to hear from Robert. He continues to show the rest of the world how ignorant liberals are. I guess he was educated in Kalifornia.

      • http://donthaveone Beberoni

        Where do you find that the Bible allows slavery? Now telling the stories of old when they had slaves, does not say for us to have slaves does it? Most of the people in the Bible they refer to as slaves, were the people that worked for someone. And there were the Israelites who were slaves of the Egyptians, as their punishment for be disobediant to God. When you chose to sin, you pay. Its your choice, and a righteous God will punish you, as would your earthly father when you do wrong. But in no way, shape, or form, does it say to go make slaves of others. No sir. On the contrary, it says “Love your neighbor as yourself.” I think that shows your statement to be in error, for if you do this, as Jesus has told us to do, you cannot make a slave out of someone. Your statement is in error.

    • Frank

      I take it your one of the receivers and not one of the givers.

      • Vigilant

        …and an ignorant one to boot!

        • Vicki

          With really poor debating skills :)

        • Angel Wannabe

          Vigilant, he was the Scrooge pithing and moaning on the PL Thanksgiving thread yesterday too!__He Seems miserable, unhappy and lonely.

      • http://randall701jen@charter.net Working Man

        Thanks to the dumbing down of America by acedemia, and
        aided by the media and of course Holloywood keeping the
        dumbed downed distracted by shinny objects (who is going
        to win American Idol, or the lattest gossip on some A-list
        celerbity) this natiol will have more receivers than givers.

        • http://donthaveone Beberoni

          Thats because we live in a “me” generation. All the last couple of generations care about, is themselves, whats in it for them, and how much can they get for themselves, and how fast can they get it. Such a destructive behavioral pattern. Its the same path Satan has walked down first, gratifying himself and trying to place his own importance above that of God, until his lousy butt got thrown out of heaven with a third of the angels who went bad with him. There are always followers of this bad behavior, and they all lead down the wrong road, and destroy those who practice this life style, and they drag down many along their way. Its not the way to be. Just as the example set before us, Jesus came here to serve us, and gave His life for us. Not to see how much He could get and take for Himself. He gave Himself up for us. Just maybe if we got back on the right track, and we all started giving more of ourselves for the benefit of others, we just might find a better place we are living in. But since the earth is Satan’s playground, I dont really think it will happen here. But still, I for one, will try.

    • Bruce D.

      Yes Ann, that is the Progressive idea that man is too dangerous to be free. That government as a collective knows what is best and should work to bring the individual under control. Freedom is much too dangerous a concept to be allowed. I think the whole theme of Thanksgiving and the American heritage somehow bypassed your consciousness Ann.

      • Vicki

        If our Constitution needs a moral and religious people just imagine what kind of Gods among men would be needed to properly steer a collective. :)

  • dean chen

    what’s meaning “tried sundrie years”?

    • FlaJim

      Tried for several years, Proud.

      It should also be noted that the first recorded Thanksgiving feast, a carryover from Old World harvest festivals, was NOT the Indians feeding the starving settlers. To the contrary, the settlers were sharing their bounty with the Indians who little of crop cultivation and were far lass effective hunters.

      This wasn’t the first Christian communalism. St Paul said in one of his letters (Romans?) that those who do not work should not eat. The concept is very warm and cozy but simply doesn’t work. When people are given a reason to work and produce, like putting a roof over their heads and eating, they will do so unless unable. That’s where Christian charity comes in, not before.

      • Susana K

        FlaJim, it’s 2 Thessalonians 3 starting at verse 6. Jesus is telling his disciples that when they visit a particular town, they are to pitch in and work for their food and not be “idle,” “not because we don’t have the right” (which alludes to custom still practiced in the Middle East of giving hospitality to travelers) but (8) “neither did we eat anyone’s food without paying for it. On the contrary, we worked night and day, laboring and toiling so that we would not be a burden to any of you. (9) We did this, not because we do not have the right to such help, but in order to make ourselves a model for you to follow. (10) For even when we were with you, we gave you this rule: ‘If a man will not work, he shall not eat.’

        (11) “We hear that some among you are idle. They are not busy; they are busybodies. (12) Such people we command and urge in the Lord Jesus Christ to settle down and earn the bread they eat.”

        I have had occasion to cite this rule to people who insist they have a “right” to take advantage of my circumstances (which are far from lavish) by plopping down on my land and free-loading.

        • Jana

          Dusana K,
          Good for you.

          • Jana

            Sorry, I meant Susana.

        • FlaJim

          Thanks for finding that, Susana!

        • http://donthaveone Beberoni

          Thank you for speaking the truth. The truth will set a person free. Im tired of hearing so many of the left wing liberals saying how the government should take care of all these people, and keep giving them hand out after handout, and to tell the truth, over 90 percent of the people I see collecting these handouts, have money to buy alcohol, cigarettes and drugs. Im sorrow, but I do not condone that behavior. I also have a hard time finding someone needy of government handouts, when I see them wearing 150.00 a pair Nike shoes, 150.00 NFL team jackets, and seeing them at the grocery store buying 400.00 worth of pork products with food stamps. If someone doesnt want to work, and believe me, the people I see day in and day out living on the government dole, are fully able to work, but dont want to, as they are getting more free than a lot of hard working folks get working for it. Its not right, and it needs to stop.

      • Bruce D.

        Nice point FlaJim and well put.

  • Proud to be a Christian

    Chip, there wasn’t any place to comment on your article about Benjamin Franklin, you were in error on when he died, according to the internet he died April 17th 1790 of old age and pluisy (spelling) . Just wanted to let you know. Keep up the good work.

    • Cliffystones

      I read that date and wondered in what semi-parallel universe Ben died before the Declaration and the Revolution?

    • http://none sean moor

      “PRIDE GOES BEFORE A FALL” proverbs

  • Conservative at Birth

    Most Americans are probably not aware of our first experiment with communism, and probably why they voted for a Marxist in 2008. It is sad but true, all attempts at coummunist economic systems end in failure. It is human nature to work down to the lowest common denominatort when all recieve the same bnefits. Look at what unions have done to the Automobile industry, for example.

    • http://yahoo Robert

      The Unions, have kept the rich repukes, from owning everything. Additionally, the Unions, have given the poor people, a voice against the rich repukes. Americans, owe their present day prosperity, to the fights the Unions have waged against rich repukes.

      Go ask any West Virginia coal miner, what the union did for him. I am very proud, to be a member, of the United Mine Workers, of America. Rich Trumka, still fights for worker’s rights.

      The repukes, have spread lies against Unions, in order for more repukes, to get rich.

      • Vicki

        What lies would those be Robert? And be specific. Also if unions are so good why do they force people to be in them?

        • http://yahoo Robert

          The unions, made the mines safe, and fought for a fair wage. Repukes did not care, how many miners were killed, in WV mines. Don’t be stupid all your life, and do a little research. I have done real labor, not type at a freakin keyboard, to keep repukes lies going.

          • Vicki

            I notice your reading comprehension is not up to the standards I would expect from someone who does labor but I will try again.

            What lies would those be Robert? And be specific.
            If unions are so good why do they force people to be in them?

            Robert will please note that in the past unions were of good use. Please show examples of where unions are CURRENTLY of good use.

            3 questions for you to work on now Robert.

          • Jana

            Robert,
            My husband doesn’t even like to work with most Union hands because all they know how to do is ONE thing. Or, they refuse to do anything but the ONE thing they were hired to do. My husband works wherever he is needed, not just the ONE thing he is supposed to do. Ergo, he has always been highly sought after.
            You may be the exception on this, but I doubt it by the sour puss attitude you convey.
            I do believe you are one of those Dumb-o-crats that I hear being talked about.
            You were the Mr. Scrooge of Thanksgiving, and from the sour way you talk on these sites you represent the Mr. Scrooge attitude all of the time.

          • Barbara

            If the unions are as good as you say, why then did they go on strike during WWII? Roosevelt was so angry at the unions in the ammunition factories he threatened to send the National Guard in to work. This accord before the Battle of the Bulge.

          • http://eddie47d@gmail.com eddie47d

            Thanks Robert for working in the mines for us and fighting for those safe working conditions. We are a better nation for it.Those whom attack you don’t understand the hardships in the mines and the health issues you have to live with. They attack unions and laborers who built a strong middle class in America and now that once strong middle class is disappearing. I guess if you don’t work in a shiny glass building then you are a nobody.

          • http://eddie47d@gmail.com eddie47d

            That owner of that West Virginia mine is a big Tea Party supporter. He also ignored the warning signs that the union had given to management. 23 lives were lost and that makes him culpable in that tragedy. That makes him worse than a liar and so typical of an owner who looks at his workers as expendable.

          • Vicki

            Robert writes:
            “JimH, and Vicki, just look, at the non-union mine explosion in Kentucky, which claimed 23 lives.”

            Eddie47d writes:
            “He (the owner) also ignored the warning signs that the union had given to management. 23 lives were lost and that makes him culpable in that tragedy.”

            Umm.. You guys should whisper each other and get your story straight. Was it union or Non-union?

            And both of you erred on the count which in the link that Robert provided (thank you Robert) said 29 and was talking about an incident several months ago.

          • Al Sieber

            Your full of it Robert, what mining companies, and mines did you work for? all mining co. report to 2 Federal agencies, and 1 state agency. Unions have nothing to do with enforcing safety rules.

          • http://eddie47d@gmail.com eddie47d

            Vickie; We both have stated that they were union miners so what is your problem? It was a tragedy that could have been avoided so why are you trying to white wash this incident. I’m sure the mine owners care about safety but seldom go into the mines themselves and actively inspect for workers safety. (out of sight and out of mind).It’s up to the workers to report what the safety issues are. Al says the government inspects mines, which is true but how often do they? Most Federal inspections are many months and sometimes years behind. We’re not talking about mold in in the back of some restaurant or a dirty floor. We are talking about an extremely dangerous job.

          • Al Sieber

            eddie47, they inspect the mines once a month, Fed, and State. It’s up to the miners to keep all areas safe, you have to have to take a 40 hr. safety course before you can go underground,you have be certified. you can not work in the mines unless you have your safety card, and every year you have to take a refresher course. the experienced miners train the new ones, it’s up to you to do a safety check every shift, and everyone else. one mine near me fired 160 people this past week because a bunch failed the drug test, and the others weren’t cut out for it. this is non-union and Ariz. is a right to work state, I’ve been doing this for 36 years, and my grandpa was a miner. nobody is worked any harder, nor is the conditions any worse because of a Union.

          • Vicki

            Eddie47d writes:
            “We both have stated that they were union miners so what is your problem?”

            If you had bothered to READ (No wonder liberals don’t seem to mind that their representatives don’t read the bills) you would have seen where YOU said it was union and Robert said it wasn’t.

          • http://marcum@wildblue.net coal miner

            Robert,

            I agree with you 100 percent.I work in the coal mines 43 years,not one time we had a fatal accident.We were heavily unionise.

        • katvilani

          Why should people enjoy the benefits of union wages and benefits without paying dues? Should I have to pay taxes so that other people’s children can go to school, should I have to pay taxes to support faith based charities if I’m an atheist? My friend worked at H.B. Reese Candy Company for 15+ years and they were non-union, but they got the same benefits as the unionized employees at Hershey Foods without having to be in a union was that fair? The company gave them the same benefits merely to prevent them from voting for a union, after all why support a union if you can just ride on the coattails of one.

          • American Citizen

            A lot of companies wised up, knowing that if they didn’t treat their employees right, they couldn’t keep them. If a company is treating its employees right, why would they want to join a union where they have o pay dues to corrupt leaders who use their dues in ways they wouldn’t themselves? Unions are doing companies in. That’s why they are moving offshore in order to survive.

          • Vicki

            once the other companies wised up the unions job is done. The problem is that the union doesn’t disband.

            It could always reform if/when the companies start taking advantage of their employees again.

          • http://?? Joe H.

            katvilani,
            My wife works for a non-union company now and if you go there and mention a union you will be run off the prooerty!! By the WORKERS!!!! The company treats them fairly, are proud of their time without an accident, pay their employees well, have four health plans to choose from, and the best retirement I,ve ever seen and I have worked both union and non union, from UAW to teamsters to IBEW!!! I’ll never work for a union shop again as long as I live!!!

          • http://?? Joe H.

            katvilani,
            I don’t know about where you live, but here in Ohio, we pay for our schools from property taxes. EVERYBODY pays for the kids to go to school even if they have never had kids!!!

      • Frank

        Do you really believe this bile? This great nation was founded well before the first unions were formed. If you really believe that Republicans and corporations are evil why not stop working for one and form your own company? And take no more salary than the lowest paid worker?

        • Vicki

          Oh Frank. But then Robert would really have to work. Anyone who has ever run a (small) business knows that they work a LOT harder then they did laboring for some big corporation.

          • http://eddie47d@gmail.com eddie47d

            That is a lot of fairy dust!

          • Vicki

            What is?

          • http://eddie47d@gmail.com eddie47d

            Small business owners work long hours but laborers work a lot harder and deserve much more respect than what they get.

          • Vicki

            I would think a laborer would much prefer wages to respect.

          • http://eddie47d@gmail.com eddie47d

            That is why some business owners don’t respect their employees and pay little to retain them. Well paid workers are more productive and show more loyalty to the company.Respect is a two way street.

          • Vicki

            eddie47d says:
            “That is why some business owners don’t respect their employees and pay little to retain them. Well paid workers are more productive and show more loyalty to the company.Respect is a two way street.”

            Thus you see it is a self regulating system needing no union nor government interference.

            Enter the Union.

            Good companies get and pay good pay to good workers. Bad companies get unions and go broke paying high wages to unproductive, unfireable union workers and get rescued by the taxpayer.

            Thus the good companies and good workers and good UNION workers get stiffed by higher union dues and taxes and the customer gets shafted with continued production of low quality product. What a great system. EVERYONE looses. Well almost. There are union leaders and politicians that do well.

            I presume by now you have heard that the UAW made a killing on the GM IPO.

            http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2010/11/flush-from-gms-ipo-uaw-targeting-new-vw-plant/

        • Bruce D.

          Frank you have pointed out the biggest flaw in their thinking. There is no reason why progressives (socialists) could not get together and buy a Mcdonalds and divide up the profits equally. Then of course if everyone is in charge who would do the work? One progressive could buy a McDonalds and divide the profits equally with his workers. Opera has billions. She could buy businesses and let all of her progressive fans share in her wealth. The only reason not to do that is the understanding that if someone is not in charge working for a pro

      • Conservative at Birth

        Why must you resort to name calling. I am a Repbulican, and like most Republicans I would not be classified as rich. I believe that rhe republican form of government and free markets are the best systems of government and ecomomic production. If you would care to debate the history of unions, bring it on. Did you know that the average contribution to the Republican Party is 1/2 of the average contribution to the Democrat Party? I think that meritocracy trumps democracy every time.

        • http://yahoo Robert

          I have not read any outrage, when Democrats are referred to as “ Democraps.” You are confirming the hypocrisy, of repukes. There was not any outrage to bush increasing the deficit, or when the repuke members of Unions, bowed to the rich repuke owners, in their demand for tiered wage agreements. Repukes voted in $8.00/hour, for new hires, and they kept their $20.00/hour jobs! Repukes are the definition of hypocrisy!

          • booker

            YOU CAN TELL YOUR A HILLBILLY,THINKING $20.00 AN HOUR IS GOOD,MUST BE NICE TO BE STUPID,AND POOR.ONLY A REAL LOSER WOULD STAY AT A $8.00 AN HOUR PAY FOR EVER,THAT MUST BE YOUR MENTALITY,GOOD LUCK WITH THAT.

          • Al Sieber

            So Robert, you and BOOKER are brothers, right?

      • Get Real

        What’s the difference between rich repukes and a union leaders ???

        • Vicki

          R vs D in the name :)

        • EltonJ

          There are none.

          • Vicki

            How many union leaders are Republican and how many Democrat and how many “other”.

          • Vicki

            I haven’t found out the ratios but since unions want to keep Democrats in power we can infer that they are not Republicans :)

            “While union leaders say they are determined to keep Congress under Democratic control, they risk undermining that goal by settling scores with incumbents, said Matt Bennett, who was the White House liaison to governors in the Clinton administration.”
            http://www.businessweek.com/news/2010-09-02/unions-spurn-democrats-seen-as-turncoats-on-issues.html

        • http://eddie47d@gmail.com eddie47d

          Union leaders fight for a voice for their fellow workers and the owners do their best to take away that voice.

          • Vicki

            Why do workers need a voice? Cat got their tongue?

          • http://eddie47d@gmail.com eddie47d

            Thanks oh great Pharaoh!The workers with the help of the unions have to be their own Moses’s to better their lives. There are still plenty of managers and corporates who will hold their workers down.

          • Vicki

            Why do they need unions? Lots of workers do quite well working for businesses and do not have (or need) unions. What is their magic?

          • http://?? Joe H.

            edduhh47DUHS!
            Well, when all those union jobs are overseas because they have priced themselves out of the market, I hope their union cards will buy food and heat!!!

          • http://eddie47d@gmail.com eddie47d

            Vickie; A good management team that treats their employees fairly. Who said everyone needs a union?

          • http://eddie47d@gmail.com eddie47d

            Joe H. (Hemroid) I see you are as nasty as always (edduhh47duhs).I thought you would wise up but you are still that same Ole’ prick. You ought to at least have the courtesy to bring up managements salaries and the unearned bonuses they get. That is an even bigger reason that jobs are lost. White collar workers can make a company top heavy and drag it down even faster. So all this dumping on the unions is way past old!

          • http://?? Joe H.

            edduhhh47duhhs!
            Let’s see, 30-40 managers and 5-600 workers being over paid. which one contributes to over pricing the most??? Almost 70 dollars an hour!!! 40 to 50 hours every week 52 weeks an hour!!! Hear that little bell going off in your empty head yet?????

          • http://?? Joe H.

            correction: before eddie wets his panties and jumps all over me, thats 52 weeks a YEAR!!

          • Vicki

            eddie47d says:
            “A good management team that treats their employees fairly.”

            And why do some people need a union?

            Eddie47d:”Who said everyone needs a union?”

            Apparently unions. :)

            http://nlpc.org/stories/2010/05/18/union-backed-bill-would-force-monopoly-bargaining-public-safety-employees

          • JeffH

            Vicki, again you’ve done it. Poor eddie47d just can’t get a break. Everytime he tries to refute something with his broad generalizations and pure assumptions he’s corrected. You’d think just about anyone could learn after getting knocked down so many times to validate their comment, but not eddie47d.

          • http://eddie47d@gmail.com eddie47d

            Vickie and Jeff always assume that employers are always fair and honest.Since so many companies have been proven to be dishonest,like Enron and Lehman Brothers maybe there is a greater need for unions or some other entity (arbitrators).Neither one of those companies were union and look what they did to our economy.

          • Vicki

            eddie47d says:
            “Vickie and Jeff always assume that employers are always fair and honest.”

            Unlike Eddie47d, we (or at least I :)and probably Jeff too. ) do not.

            Eddie47d:”Since so many companies have been proven to be dishonest,like Enron and Lehman Brothers maybe there is a greater need for unions or some other entity (arbitrators).”

            2 of 6000+ is hardly so many. And you have not shown that either company is dishonest.
            http://www.census.gov/econ/susb/

            eddie47d:”Neither one of those companies were union and look what they did to our economy.”

            And what (Be specific) would a union do to prevent what you allege those companies did to your economy? I know what unions have done to the auto industry :)

          • Vicki

            Here is a link to go with my comment above about the auto industry :)

            http://www.examiner.com/conservative-in-grand-rapids/unions-destroyed-u-s-auto-industry

      • booker

        RICH T IS BEING INVESTIGATED BY THE F.B.I.

      • Bruce D.

        The biggest flaw in Unions today, besides unsustainable benefits and especially with the teachers union, is that it is way too difficult to fire someone who is incompetent. I think that the unions at one time were necessary. The unions have forgotten that it must be a win-win between employers and employees. When the unions become too powerful they become what they hate and take advantage of the system causing businesses to fail. Right now the same political powers on the left that support the unions want to distroy the coal industry. If the left are allowed to stay in power you will have no job at all. That is understood by most.

      • Mr. P

        I just realized who Robert is. He is really Red-Roger from San Francisco, who is a ceritified 5150. In union terms that is NUTS. Unions killed pretty much everything in this country. They were good when we capitalists were maming children etc. Now they just support commies and Harry Reid.

      • http://donthaveone Beberoni

        The unions are scourge upon society Robert. I know, I worked for 11 years in 3 different union shops, and they were all the same. Guys from one end of the plant to the other, screwing the company, costing them thousands of dollars, and nothing could be done about it. Then they would strike and close the company, because the greedy cusses wanted more money when the company wasnt making it, primarily because the union workers didnt want to work and be efficient. They have the “the world owes me a living” mentality, and I was never so glad as I was the day I had had enough of it, and quit my job, and went looking and found a job a week and a half later, in a non union shop, where lo and behold, I found out that they recognized my hard work effort, and Ive more than doubled my pay in the last 14 years. In the union, I made what everybody else made. The low lifes that sat around and hid all day, got paid the same as the guys that worked real hard. And I dont care who you are, that is not right. Boy that used to piss me off. And myself, and a few others would get called in by our lead man, and tell us to quit doing so much work, because we were making the other guys look bad. Unbelieveable. I mean, come on man. The first job was working at a Brewery, and by 1:00 in the afternoon, every day, we were on the roof with a bucket of beer drinking, and they would tell us to quit working so hard because we were making the other guys look bad. Gimme a break. I watched these guys, at all three companies I worked for, cost these companies thousands of dollars, and nothing was done about it. I watched them falsify time cards, steal products, get caught and fired, and 3 weeks later they were back to work, with back pay. The unions stand for this behavior. America isnt about this kind of behavior. Unions are the scourge of this country, and I for one am glad Im out of them, and will be glad to see them all go away. They have ruined New York and Massachusetts, just ruined them. Its time for them to go.

  • mayflowertwin21

    Marx was not even alive in the early 1600′s and did not publish “Das Kapital” until the mid 1800′s so there is no way the Pilgrims would have had knowledge of communism as a political theory.

    • http://yahoo Robert

      Thank you, for your history knowledge. Repukes lie, and twist history, for their gains. The best example, is that repuke joker Glen Beck.

      • Vicki

        Robert. Your obvious hatred for Republicans is showing. You might consider toning it down a bit. On second thought don’t. You will make a good example to others.

        • http://yahoo Robert

          I am only reciprocating, the anger I see from the repukes here. What is the matter, can’t repukes stand some truth?

          • Vicki

            Do you know what ad hominem means with respect to debate?

          • patricia

            Somehow, I don’t think you would know the truth if it hit you on the head with a hammer…..! Great article, Chip.

        • http://none sean moor

          hey vivki. ask robert that question you asked him erlier?!? what was it again????

          • Vicki

            Which one? I have asked several. Typical liberal though. No response.

      • THIRD PARTY

        THE BED WETTER OBERMANN IS YOUR TYPE I BET.OR THE TINGLIER CHRIS THE YAK JAW.

      • Bruce D.

        If Democrats have their way there will be no coal jobs in America. You need to wake up unless you are retired at this time and do not care about those that follow you as coal workers.

        • Vicki

          He has time to post here so he must be a labor leader and no longer working in the mines he so loves/hates.

          • http://eddie47d@gmail.com eddie47d

            You have plenty of time to post here so you must be retired or disabled. (you seem to love giving snip-pity little answers so fair is fair).

          • Vicki

            Lets see. Hmmmm.. Not disabled. I don’t get money from the government. I do send money to the government. That’s it I must be retired. Or maybe I am just about my Fathers business.

          • Al Sieber

            Vicki, this guy would never work in a mine with me, if you don’t get along with the other Miners you get your a$s kicked, Union or not. Robert wouldn’t last 5 minutes working with some of the people I work with.

          • http://eddie47d@gmail.com eddie47d

            Al; Where do you get the idea that Robert doesn’t do his share of work or doesn’t get along with the other miners? You are doing an awful lot of assuming. He could be the hardest worker but very tired of all the crap. Every job is different even at different mines.

          • Jana

            eddie,
            I think you are doing the assuming. This mans attitude is atrocious. I doubt if he even gets along well with his own family let alone any possible coworkers.

          • Al Sieber

            eddie47, every mine is different because every “ground” is different and anything can happen until you know the ground above you. people like Robert, brooks, etc. can be very annoying working with underground, especially if he talks Politics or voted for Obama instead of looking for safety hazards, most other miners would have a little talk with him, if you know what I mean.

          • http://?? Joe H.

            Al sieber,
            and they say words will never hurt you?!?!?! They obviously haven’t had that little TALK!!!

      • Kate8

        Robert – I can see why you wouldn’t like Glenn Beck. Anyone who speaks of things such as God, honor, self-lessness, and the American spirit would be quite offensive to someone such as yourself.

        I’d rather listen to Beck than you anytime!

        • Bruce D.

          Kate8 nice reply. Glen puts his heart and soul into what he is doing as do you. Good job.

        • http://?? Joe H.

          kate8,
          I’ll second that post!!!

      • http://donthaveone Beberoni

        Ok Robert, Im taking you to task here. You call Glenn Beck a liar. So prove it. Tell me one lie he has told? Just one? Now, not something that you have a different opinion on, because thats just your opinion. I mean a stone cold lie. You call the man a liar, and bear false witness against him, I want to see your proof that he is a liar. Or, are you just repeating what your liberal friends in the media are telling you? Put the proof out there Robert. I know you cant, because the dude doesnt lie. He exposes the liberal left for who they are and what they are, and lays them naked to the world. Thats why the liberals hate him, because he speaks the truth and reveals them with solid stone cold truthful facts about them, and they cannot refute the facts, so they make up stories, and call him a liar. Yet his proof is always there. So where is yours Robert. I say bring it, or shut up, and not your left wing liberal opinions, I mean factual evidence that he is a liar. I want to see it, because every liberal I have asked this of, has not yet produced one single iota of evidence of Beck lying, only their opinions, which are direct copies of what I hear the left wing liberal media say. They are blind followers. Bring some facts to the table Robert, or quit repeating blindly what uneducated people are saying with their lies.

      • http://donthaveone Beberoni

        Are you a union idiot like eddie? You know, that needs a group to protect you so that you can lay around and not work hard like your supposed to?

    • Vicki

      You do not need to know the future name of a method to know the method.

      • http://yahoo Robert

        Vicki, repukes are the definition of ad hominem, when repukes swift boated John Kerry. Vicki, you are showing repuke hypocrisy, at its best.

        • Vicki

          I think you ment this for a different part of the thread. You can try and fake an answer. That works in school but not so much here.

          So I ask again what is the definition of ad hominem with respect to debate.

        • http://?? Joe H.

          Robert,
          John Kerry is the epitomy of a hipocrate!!! He put himself in for a medal he didn’t deserve while others that deserved them refused them!!!

        • http://donthaveone Beberoni

          John Kerry is a traitor, that turned against his own men. John Kerry received a purple heart for shooting himself in the arse. Need I say more?

    • Vigilant

      Who said they had knowledge of it?

      They certainly practiced it, whether or not the word “communism” had been coined.

      What a ridiculous statement.

      • http://yahoo Robert

        The point is, that Chip Wood, twists history, for repuke gains.

        • Frank

          The point is you are part of the uneducated masses who falls for communist lies. Be gone with you. Leave this great nation and move to Cuba.

          • http://yahoo Robert

            This not a “great” nation. Liberals are trying to improve this nation, to greatness. You gtf out of this nation! I’m tired of repuke lies.

          • Vicki

            Likely we were here first Robert. You leave.

        • http://persoaliberty.com Mike W.

          I bet you voted three or four times for this idiot in office rite now.You are just an upset misgudied person. You sound like you could use a Dr. Phil hug or perhaps even spend some time on his couch .

        • Al Sieber

          Robert, time for your “Prozac”.

        • http://donthaveone Beberoni

          The point is, you reject history and its truths. And those who dont learn from history, are doomed to repeat it. The democrat playbook 101. Keep repeating past mistakes.

    • Conservative at Birth

      Communes have been tried throughout history. It was not a new idea when Karl and Wilfred wrote the Communist manifesto. You need a refresher course in world history, my sadly ignorant enemy.

      • Vigilant

        CB,

        I don’t know why we even engage in discourse with this idiot. We should just leave his screed unchallenged. He seems to be doing a fine job in divulging the ignorance of the left, better than anything we could do.

        And the liberals think WE are the ignorant hayseeds!

        • http://donthaveone Beberoni

          I think Robert is a plant from moveon.org.

    • Conservative at Birth

      Actually I believe it was the mid 19th century.

    • Ted Crawford

      Mayflowertwin21: Bradford refered tp Plato as their source of inspiration. Plato lived around 380 B.C. Did you think that Fredrick Engels and Karl Marx thought up the whole concept on their own?

    • Jana

      mayflowertwin21,
      Of course they didn’t call it communism when the settlers tried this. Some things should be obvious but evidently they are not. There is really nothing new under the sun. They didn’t put a name on it, they just thought of it as a way of life, and quickly found out it did NOT work.
      It still doesn’t work.

      • Vicki

        True. Chip used the name we know the method by TODAY so he didn’t have to describe the method twice. That is called brevity I think.

      • Kate8

        Jana, When you think of it, it is true in any grouping of people. Reminds me of clubs and churches, etc. You have 20% of the group doing all the work (cleaning, potlucks, special events…) and 80% partaking of the fruits but not of the labor.

        You always have the top 20% in any facet of life. You also have the bottom 20%, and everyone in the middle who justs do what is necessary to get by. The bottom 20% expect to be taken care of by everyone else.

        To communists, the top 20% are dangerous because they are self-motivated, the bottom 20% are lazy and useless, and there are just too many of the rest.

  • e. nies

    The first people to try the communist approach were the Christians after the crucifixion of Christ. As was pointed out previously that it did not work and so Paul said Work or you do not eat. The first Communist Putsch came when people sold what they had and brought it to the apostles. One couple decided to keep a portion of what they got and claim they had given all. Both of them died. They died not because they had not given all but because they lied to the Holy Spirit. In fact Peter said, “You were not required to give anything”. Unlike the the liberal progressives who want forced distribution of wealth.

    • http://yahoo Robert

      Liberals want “meaningful” jobs, not handouts from rich repukes.
      Where are the meaningful jobs? Bob McDonnell, the repuke governor of Virginia, said: “All Americans should have the opportunity to find and keep meaningful work, and the dignity that comes with it.”

      It will never happen until all repukes are driven out of office, again. A meaningful job, to a rich repuke, is working at McDonalds!

      • Conservative at Birth

        What is a meanigful job? Working for the Government?

        • http://yahoo Robert

          Ask the repuke governor, bob McDonnell, what meaningful is, you repuke idiot. Better yet read it yourself: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/01/27/bob-mcdonnell-speech-full_n_439508.html

          • http://persoaliberty.com Mike W.

            The huffyington post get serious find a better example than that .Can get much more far left than that lberial crap . Come on man Dr. Phil is waiting for you .

        • http://yahoo Robert

          I am not, kissing a rich repuke arse, for a meaningful job! I didn’t have to do it, when I worked in the WV mines, for 20 years, and I refuse to grovel to a rich repuke now!

          VERY proud, to be UNION, you repuke idiot!

          • Vicki

            Tell us Robert. (You hinted in another post) What did the union in WV do for you. Please be specific. I have questions.

          • Vicki

            Btw I DO support you being in a union if you WANT to be.

          • THIRD PARTY

            YOUR RETARDED TO THE FULLEST DEGREE.

          • Jana

            Robert,
            You could almost be my uncle. I always remember his frownie face and the union was his god (little g on purpose) He was also from WVA. He truly had hate in his heart too. Every family gathering all he did was yell and fuss. We don’t go around him anymore. If you want to yell and fuss, why don’t you take your own advice from yesterday and “do it among your own kind!”

          • Vigilant

            Robert,

            I’d like to know your take on the environmental movement. Seems like your president has set his sights on demonizing the coal industry, and doing everything in his power to replace it with clean energy.

      • Vicki

        What is a meaningful job to you Robert? And are you creating such jobs for people or just complaining about not having one?

        • http://yahoo Robert

          Vicki, ask the repuke governor, Bob McDonnell, what meaningful is, you repuke idiot. Better yet read it yourself: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/01/27/bob-mcdonnell-speech-full_n_439508.html

          • Vicki

            I did not ask Bob I asked YOU. I would however like to thank you for a link. Most liberals just make assertions and presume proof by bald assertion.

            I don’t think that word (idiot) means what you think it means. :)

          • Vigilant

            Kind of like the Huffington Post?

      • Get Real

        Robert, you seem to have republicans and Democrates mixed up ? Do you even know the difference ? Has your union brain washed you to the point of no return ?

        • http://yahoo Robert

          I know the difference between a repulsive repuke, and a kind, sensible Democrat.

          • Vicki

            I would hope you know the difference even if you remove their political affiliations.

          • Get Real

            Robert, I can see you are havin trouble knowing the difference between Democrates and Republicans.
            Here’s a hint:
            One party wants to give you a fish so you can eat today and still depend on them to eat tomorrow. (similar to Unions)

            The other party wants to teach you how to fish so you can feed yourself and family and not be dependent on them.

            I bet you will get this wrong !

          • Angel Wannabe

            Robert__” a Kind and sensible Democrap”___Put the koolaid down and step away from the table!___lol

          • http://eddie47d@gmail.com eddie47d

            The Republicans at least in this case of mine owners get wealthy off the backs of hard working miners. They take all the fish they can and throw the workers the left overs. Democrats want to see their workers have more fish so ask for better wages so they can survive another day.

          • Get Real

            Wrong, wrong, wrong…. Democrates want to control your life period.
            they want you to depend on the government for everything. That is the base of their power. More government in your life. If that is what you want then fine but do not deny what a democrate is. If you believe in socializm, amnesty for illegals, abortion, higer taxes, globalization, cap and trade, man made global warming, gay marriage and that the world would be better off without the USA then you may be a democrate.

          • http://eddie47d@gmail.com eddie47d

            Get Real,Mr Get Real. Who’s propaganda book did you get that line out of?

          • Get Real

            Eddie, that is not propaganda that is what Democrates stand for (and the list goes on). If that is what you believe fine just own up to it. If you don’t think that is what democrates stand for then you don’t have a clue and should really read a little more or even better listen to some of the democrates own words. Just learn what a democrate is and if you agree fine just don’t deny the truth.

          • usmadgirl

            Joe H, Jana, Vicki, Vigilant, Get Real, Kate8, Mike W, Conservative at Birth & anyone else who has responded to “Robert”

            Why do you guys even respond to this obviously delusional nitwit who’s apparently living in a reverse parallel universe? Everything he says is exactly opposite of reality. The Huffington Post link (that I wouldn’t read if I had a gun to my head) & the line about “a kind & sensible Democrat” (which is an oxymoron, to say the least) did it for me! I threw up just a little! He’s not worth the finger exercise to type a response! Maybe if you don’t respond, he’ll go away! He’s probably a “plant” from some progressive freak site anyway!

          • Jana

            usmadgirl,
            The Personal Liberty told us he was posting under several names, some even contradicting himself. This man is truly delusional. He was posting under Robert, Truth, Third Party, blackman, Roberts Mom, and booker.
            Since then we have been ignoring him.

          • libertytrain

            USMADGIRL – perfectly logical post! Couldn’t agree more.

          • usmadgirl

            Libertytrain,

            Thanks!!! He was just getting my blood pressure up with his psychotic “repuke” lies!

          • usmadgirl

            Jana,

            Thanks for the heads up! He’s just another lying Dumb-o-crap imposter!

            Hope you had a nice Thanksgiving!

          • Jana

            Thanks,
            We did have a great Thanksgiving. Hope yours was great too. :)

          • Vicki

            usmadgirl says:
            “Why do you guys even respond to this obviously delusional nitwit who’s apparently living in a reverse parallel universe?”

            Cause sad but true if you remove his ad hominem attacks much of his fantasy is shared by lots of Democrats here in California. By practicing on him we are better prepared to handle the nonsense when we interact with others who share his world view.

          • http://?? Joe H.

            USmadgirl,
            yeah I guess you’re right!! DARN! There goes my fun. Guess I’m just gonna have to be entertained by picking on roberto smythe!!

      • JimH

        Robert. Meaningful jobs are created by a free market economy. When these markets are hindered by high taxation, unreasonable regulating or unreasonable union demands these meaningful jobs are lost. GET IT. It’s not free market republicans who are causing the loss of meaningful jobs. By the way a PAY CHECK no matter how it was EARNED, is more meaningful than a Dem. wellfare check.

        • http://yahoo Robert

          JimH, and Vicki, I survived the 20 years in the mines, not from the generosity, of the rich repukes; but, from the laws enacted by the US government. The UMWA, was a significant part, of the process. The Mine Safety and Health Administration, which is part of Occupational Safety and Health Administration, enacted rules and regulations, which prevented mines from blowing up. You two repuke idiots, are minimizing their role, in safety. JimH, and Vicki, just look, at the non-union mine explosion in Kentucky, which claimed 23 lives. It was owned by a rich repuke, which had no regard, for safety, and workers lives. http://www.kentucky.com/2010/11/19/1532129/msha-issues-286-citations-at-targeted.html

          The repuke elect, rand paul, does not have any respect, for the lives lost, in coal mines. Why are repukes, ignorant of facts? The repuke god Reagan said, “Facts are stubborn little things.” He couldn’t handle any facts, he could only spout out rehearsed simple lines. JimH, and Vicki, you also spout simple lines, from your simple minds.

          • Vicki

            Robert. You Survived? Was it dangerous? Tell me if you were so at risk WHY did you do it? You could have been a fisherman instead.

          • Get Real

            Wow Robert, I didn’t know that non-union mines DO NOT have to follow government safty rules ! I am glad for you that you work in a Union mine which has NEVER had an accident. I do have a question? If your mine is owned by a nice kind democrate why do you need a union?

          • JimH

            Robert, The person that OWNS that mine is the the one who signs your paycheck. The person who hires the union workers, is the one who provides a job for you, the mine owner, not the union.

          • Vicki

            Robert writes:
            “…JimH, and Vicki, you also spout simple lines, from your simple minds.”

            I don’t think that word means what you think it means.

        • Ernest T.

          This argument is older than time its self. Lucifer promised everyone; that they would be returned perfect, if they followed his plan. Jehovah promised freedom to choice, to make mistakes and grow from those mistakes. All would not return, but those that do will be much stronger. If you are here on earth you chose right there. Now you are falling for the same lie. Satan is now telling you that if you give up your GOD given rights to Unions and Government you will receive everything that everyone else has. As long as you work to keep them in power. They will extort from those that have and give to those that empower them. Power to the people and the states. GET THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT(and their union allies) OUT OF OUR LIVES AND POCKETS!!!

      • Get Real

        Robert, a lot of “rich repukes” (myself included) started out working for Mcdonalds. It just proves the point that if you work hard
        no job is meaningless. Are you a hard worker or do you expect the government to just give you a “meaningful job” ? If one person has been doing a job for many years and is much better at it should a new hire be paid as much ?

        • http://yahoo Robert

          Yes.

          • Vicki

            Why?

          • Get Real

            lol … So I guess you are always the new guy who wants to make as much as the old pro….

          • Barbara

            This is called socialism.

          • http://yahoo Robert

            On second thoughts, Absolutely yes! I started in the coal mines, at livable wage, and I contributed immediately, to the economy. I bought a truck, and started renting. I worked, at my “meaningful job” and prospered. It wasn’t from the generosity of rich repuke, it was from rules and regulations, enacted by the government! Rich repukes, won’t be happy, until slavery is enacted, again. Are rich repukes, saving powder to enact slavery, again? A rich repuke, will always have a reason, not to pay a meaningful wage, i.e.: I need a new house, like the rich repuke mccain owning seven.

          • booker

            YOU REALLY SHOW HOW STUPID YOU REALLY ARE ROBERT.79 OUT OF THE HUNDRED RICHEST PEOPLE IN AMERICA WORKED IN A FAST FOOD PLACE,OR A OIL CHANGE PLACE.IT’S CALLED A STARTING POINT,THE PROBLEM WITH COMMUNIST LIKE ROBERT,THEY CHOOSE TO BE LAZY,AND UNEDUCATED TO THE POINT OF NEEDING A HAND OUT.NO JOB IS BENEATH ANY ONE INDIVIDUAL,AND IF YOUR INTO FACTS STOP SPEWING YOUR NONSENSE.

          • Vicki

            meaningful wage? What is that? Do you have an actual number?

          • Get Real

            Robert, you have lost it buddy. LOL…..

          • http://persoaliberty.com Mike W.

            ROBERT…..You said ..”I contributed immediately, to the economy. I bought a truck, and started renting”. When you were RENTING your home was it from one of us rich REPULICAN’s who allowed you to RENT their home from them or was it RENTED from one of your kind ?????

          • http://eddie47d@gmail.com eddie47d

            Vickie says Robert should have been a fisherman. What a cop out! If nobody wants to do the hard jobs then who will work the mines? Should we import more immigrants? Booker has no idea where Robert worked his first job.So he starts calling him a communist and lazy. Which means that coal miners are communists and lazy!! You definitely have to be a Republican to say something so moronic.

          • Vicki

            Eddie47d writes:
            “Vickie says Robert should have been a fisherman.”

            Eddie should read what I wrote and not what he thinks I wrote. But it is a common human failing.

            Eddie47d:”If nobody wants to do the hard jobs then who will work the mines? ”

            Failed connection between hard job and mining.

            If nobody wants to do the hard jobs (for some value of hard and job) for some wage, those jobs don’t get done. For some higher wage someone will do the job. Or the business fails and we move on.

            That is why Capitalism works.

          • Vigilant

            eddie,

            You went up in my estimation one notch when you spoke sensibly about illegal immigration. Sadly, in supporting Robert (a REAL wacko), you’ve dropped back two notches.

          • Al Sieber

            The Miners out here get $15.00 hr., plus another $2.50 hr. for a good safety record. thats $17.50 a hr. starting out, plus medical benefits and this is non-union. we follow the same agency’s rules as Union. each miner is responsible for his safety, and the safety of others, if you don’t, you’re fired. no Union to go running to, if you’re unsafe nobody will work with you. stop crying Robert you little “Wimp”.

          • http://?? Joe H.

            Robert,
            If a guy sits on his butt all day and does very little work, should the company have to keep him just because he is a union member??? This HAS happened!!

          • http://?? Joe H.

            Robert,
            One other question, if a mine worker that works right along side you in the mine does a good job and the mine owner decides to reward him by making him a foreman or a manager, is he then a rich repuke as you put it???

      • Bruce D.

        Robert you should start a business and hire people. That may be the only way for you to take an honest look at employee/employer relationship. You do not have the reality that it is not as easy as you think to make a businesses profitable. Many businesses fail. To make a business successful the owner has to work twice as hard as his employees to make his business successful in addition to capital outlay. Once it is successful he can take some time off and put others in charge but must always stay on top of things as businesses have a tendancy to fail if left unattended by the owner.

      • http://donthaveone Beberoni

        You are so full of bull. The liberals want to sit around and do nothing and have the rest of us pay for their sitting around and doing nothing. A modern day case in point. My daughters liberal boyfried. Did 4 years in the military, no war time, came out and didnt learn any trade. He wasnt recommended for re-enlistment, which tells you a lot right there if you have ever served. Now, its been a year since he has gotten out, and still he has not even let the thought enter his head to get a job. Why? He says, “why should I work when they are giving me 350.00 a week to stay home and party”. And now, he is going to get 1000.00 a month for house if he enrolls in school, and he is planning on collecting that for 4 years, with no plans for a trade or learning anything. And my liberal daughter, who was not raised that way, is working paying the way, and letting him sponge off of her, which I detest in a big way. This is todays liberal left. What a mess.

    • EltonJ

      Actually, the original 12 Apostles tried something called _The Law of Consecration_ or the _Order of Enoch_. This is how it works:

      Property is privately owned by the individual except for certain community service projects such as an electric generator.

      An individual retained all of his profits, and voluntarily may give of his increase to the community. He keeps what he needs in order to see to the needs of his family. As far as I know, this is strictly voluntary. A man may withhold his profits if he so desires.

      The family is declared to be the basic social unit of the Order. According to the Law of Consecration, the nuclear family comes first. The order only took over when the family has failed for some reason.

      Under the order, your personal security is paramount. You have the right to possess legal title to your lands and rivalrous goods (such as things made of dead tree pulp). All of your property is held in a stewardship that each man enjoys to full independence even to the point of taking his stewardship out of the system if he desires.

      Competition is encouraged among all, also so is cooperation. Each man is encouraged to prove himself a profitable servant and the more ingenuity and efficiency you manifest on your own, the more profitable you are considered to be.

      Supervision is Decentralized. Each Man supervises himself ultimately, since is he given wide latitude in which he will develop his own particular stwardship to his greatest possible advantage. The judgement by your bishop or other spiritual leader is on the final results.

      Finally, Morality, Spirituality, and religion are the foundations of this order. Respect for the Father and the priesthood is important for this to work.

      It sounds as if the Pilgrims tried this way, but the order cannot work without full knowledge of it. It quickly degenerated into Communism. As a result, they changed back to a more natural way of doing things (Capitalism).

      • Ernest T.

        Very well put Elton, you have seen the light.

  • BrotherPatriot

    ^^ Wow…some of the ignorant comments already… ^^

    Happy Thanksgiving everyone…I hope yours was as warm and family filled as mine. I was happily surrounded by family and ate way, WAY to much..at both houses…lol. Even got my nap in! :)

    Thank you God for such a fine day/night!

    In regard to this article…2 primary ROOT level words to go with its simple message of keeping the fruit of your labors vrs the strategy of communisim…

    Free Market.

    Fiscal responsibility, smaller government and a free market is what America needs to return to. The Tea Party says it like it needs to be. I predict that Obummer is NOT going to make it to the end of his term…I predict a great deal of change is coming…the GOOD kind of change. However, I’m biased…my cup is 1/2 full.

    God Bless.

    • http://yahoo Robert

      The repuke god Reagan said, “Facts are stubborn little things.” He couldn’t handle any facts, he could only spout out rehearsed simple lines, from his simple little mind.

      • Get Real

        Robert, It is obvious who is spouting out rehearsed simple lines, from their simple little mind. And NO it is not all of those “repukes” that you keep insulting.

      • booker

        ACTUALLY THE COMMIE ROCKEFELLER SAID THAT IN 1913 WHEN THE FEDERAL RESERVE WAS FORMED.

        • Vicki

          The earliest I could find was John Addams circa 1770
          http://www.quotationspage.com/quote/3235.html

          Though someone else may well have said it or similar earlier.

          Also the correct quote does not contain “little”

          • Vigilant

            Thanks Vicki!

            John Adams is my favorite of all the Founders, but I didn’t know he said that.

      • Bruce D.

        Actually Robert you are twisting what Ronald Reagan’s meaning. It is the communists that could not handle the facts. That is why the Berlin Wall came down.

  • Vicki

    Robert is such fun. He trolls and trolls trying to make us say mean things about him but we just go on about our debate.

    Please Please Please either ignore him or ONLY debate with him. DO NOT give him the pleasure of ad hominem attacks against him.

    • Jana

      Vicki,
      He goes by Robert, Truth, Third Party, blackman, Roberts Mom, and booker, according to Personal Liberty. See post below.

      • Vicki

        Waiting on validation of the post from PLS

        • JeffH

          Vicki, I do believe that PLS is legit…I’ve seen the occasional note from PLS in other threads and am quite sure that they would catch and delete any posts using a phony PLS “handle”.

          • libertytrain

            Jeff is correct and I think there are actually two separate Robert’s posting, one using the “repuke-minded” Robert’s name as well.

          • Vicki

            My level of certainty is higher for Bob L’s name than for PLS but I concur that it is likely that moderators would squash them as well. Though having verified the problem as good moderators they should delete all the accounts except the first one. But that may not be the policy here and I do like the openness of discussion so I am not suggesting changing it.

          • libertytrain

            Vicki – sometimes things are not always what they seem – and one thing we all can agree on, though, I almost always agree with you – is that I absolutely love that we can express our opinions pretty darn freely here without being deleted as we would on a lib site and how the libs are not removed from this site… no matter how many times we would like to see them removed :)

          • Kate8

            JeffH – Robert has managed to control the entire direction of this thread so far. We all bite.

            Frankly, his posts cause me to recoil and even feel slightly nauseas. There’ just something creepy about his guy, and it comes right through his words. Never quite got that from the other lefties.

            Maybe it’s just me, but I can’t deal with this guy.

          • JeffH

            Kate8, oh yes on that. His intent is to incite much the way HFlash and some others do, as if it is their sole job to do so. Facts be damned! Unlike denniso, who is purely blind of reality and filled with real hate or eddie47d who strays like he’s got ADD and is much more confused and focused on the little things rather than the core intent of the discussion. They all display a common trait though, all corporations are evil, they hate CEO’s and every rich person is a Republican/conservative. Everything else is a right wing conspiracy except that the real conspiracy lies in the fact they’ve all, to the tee, bought into the Soros/Globalist’s “mind conspiracy” that we are the evil people and that they are the true American patriots.
            I guess in their minds a vote for Marxism/socialism/communism is a vote for patriotism…go figure.

          • Kate8

            JeffH – You are, of course, right, as usual. Except that I really don’t thing these guys even understand the concept of ‘patriotism’. I think they are more concerned with class-envy and getting a share of what others have worked for. It’s purely self-interest.

          • JeffH

            Kate8, you’re probably more right on that.

  • Leon

    Robert wants a hand out not a job. He can’t spell Republican so he has to do the best he can.

    • http://yahoo Robert

      What’s the definition of a Republican? A rich repuke, or even a poor repuke, who wants to go back to the flawed US constitution.

      • Vicki

        Actually Robert if you were to study you would find that it is Constitutionalists that want to go back to the Constitution (Including all Amendments :) rather than Republicans.

        • Bruce D.

          Good point Vicki. The Tea Party is trying to force the Republicans back to the restrictions of the Constitution. Their similarity to Democrats were leaving us with a one party system. There are many progressive Republicans that want to eat out of the same ‘pig trough’ as Robertlikes eating out of.

          • Vicki

            When we are being nice we call them (John McCain) RINOs

      • THIRD PARTY

        YOUR BRAIN IS FLAWED,YOU HAVE NO CONCEPT OF THE CONSTITUTION,OR WHAT REAL FREEDOM IS.

      • Vicki

        And I should be good and provide a cite.
        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitutionalism

      • EltonJ

        Robert, the Constitution is ordained by the People and it is ordained by the Father. It’s purpose is to set up a FREE government here in America until the Kingdom of God replaces that government with another FREE government.

        It does not consecrate a Monarchy or a Feudal Socialist government at any stage. Feudalistic Socialism is not a perfect government. We libertarians oppose the establishment of a Feudalistic Socialist government and want to re-errect a Free Government for the benefit of all. If you approve of a Feudalistic Socialist government then you are not a libertarian.

        • Karolyn

          Elton – Where do you get “ordained by the Father.”

          • Kate8

            Karolyn – I believe Elton was using the term ‘ordained’ as in it was ‘willed’ or ‘intended’ by the Father.

          • Karolyn

            I got that Kate.

          • Jana

            Karolyn,
            Well it didn’t sound like you did.

      • booker

        ROBERT IS A PROGRESSIVE,COMPLETELY DIFFERENT THEN A REAL DEM.HE SPEWS THE SAME THINGS A REAL COMMUNIST SPEW,HE PROBABLY TUNES INTO 99.5 FM IN N.Y.PROGRESSIVES ARE BY DEFINITION ARE COMMUNIST.THEY ARE PROUD,AND THINK THEY ARE SMARTER THEN EVERYONE,THEY ALL AGREE THAT THE FRUITS OF ONES LABOR IS A BUFFET TO ALL LAZY PROGRESSIVES.THIS TOOL ROBERT WOULD BE IN A FEMA CAMP TODAY IF WE WERE ALONG THOSE LINES.HE SHOULD MOVE TO HIS FRIENDLY’S IN CHINA,NORTH KOREA,OR HANG WITH HIS BUDDIE DOA CASTRO.

        • http://yahoo Robert

          Yes, booker, I’m a proud, Union card caring Liberal, not a repuke piece of crap, that spouts lines from the bible, or the repuke god reagan. GET IT? Inversely to meghan mccain, who said a bad repuke, is better than a good Democrat, I feel a bad Democrat, is better than a good repuke; because, repukes always take care of the rich, and never the poor.

          Here’s one question, for all your freakin repukes: Is supporting the rich, the moral equivalent, of defending the poor? If so, there is a special place for all you repukes, in Hell!

          • Get Real

            Robert, you are really messed up. I don’t know what happened in your life but you need help. You have no clue what the Democrates stand for and you are totally wrong about what Republicans stand for. I know you will not believe me but you are all messed up. I feel sorry for you and all the others who do NOT take the time to see between the lines. I can respectfully disagree with people who really believe in what democrates stand for but I cannot understand people like you who have no clue. If you really knew what democrates and republicans stand for and still support democrates that would be fine but you my friend do NOT. I will pray for you and maybe someday you will see that you beloved union is no different than your hated Rich. You may not “kiss the ass” of rich repukes but you do kiss the ass of your Union pukes.

          • booker

            YOUR WORKING FOR GEORGE SORROS,YOU THROW TERMS AROUND WITH NO CONCEPT OF THEIR MEANING,THAT CALLED A RETARD,LOWER IQ THEN 80.

          • booker

            DUDE,YOUR A REAL TOOL,THE SO CALLED RICH REPUKES GIVE 3 TO 1 IN CHARITABLE DONATIONS TO THE POOR,WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT,YOU SOUND THE THE BED WETTER ON MSNBC.

          • Vicki

            Robert writes:
            “I feel a bad Democrat, is better than a good repuke; because, repukes always take care of the rich, and never the poor.”

            You realize I only have to find 1 example of a republican taking care of the poor to disprove your entire assertion. Your feeling is just that and needs no proof nor disproof.

            http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2008/03/conservatives_more_liberal_giv.html

            You will of course note (if you read it) that the article speaks mostly of liberals vs conservatives. I am willing to bet that I will find at least one conservative Republican in that group. Thus I submit the cite to totally refute your assertion that “repukes always take care of the rich, and never the poor.” Unless of course “repuke” is not your troll word for Republican even though you have stated that it is in other comments here.

          • alpha-lemming

            I REALLY feel sorry for you. So much hate and propaganda, so little tolerance and information…. that dead canary should’ve been a major red-flag to you.

          • Ernest T.

            My family income is around 40,000 a year. I give freely 10% to the Church (before the taxes are extorted) and about 5% more to other charity. Charity is good extortion by the government to buy power from those that take the bribes is bad. GET THE GOVERNMENT OUT OF OUR LIVES AND POCKETS. We Christians will care for the poor and truly help them. The Government will enslave them and call it taking care of them.

          • Bruce D.

            Nice blog Earnest T. Robert seems to have the same hatred for God that he has for Republicns. It would be impossible for him to understand the concept of voluntarily giving as opposed to getting group agreement for government to steal from the individual to redistribute.

    • Vicki

      I can’t spell either but there is a built in spell checker. Robert is deliberately spelling that way to troll for responses.

      • http://yahoo Robert

        The correct spelling of republican, is REPUKE!

        • Angel Wannabe

          Your not offering anything new Robert, it’s obvious your just here putting in hours to collect your pay!___But Hey, Have a Great Day! :)

        • Jana

          Robert,
          The correct spelling for Robert is COMMUNIST!

          • Angel Wannabe

            Jana, Man O Man__Can anyone say Mr. miserable?!__Geesh!

      • JeffH

        Vicki, Robert is just another version of HFlash…a liberal troll and hack whose only reason to be here is to share his misery and unhappiness with himself. A lot of similarities to another hatefull troll and miserable hack, denniso.
        Repukes? Dumbocrats? Just words, nothing more and certainly nothing meaningfull or worth argueing over.
        When trolls like Robert are ignored, they eventually go away.

        • Vicki

          But he makes such a good foil to carve up with truth and fact. Just think of all the people just reading when they see him troll and we respond with reasoned counters to all his propaganda. It also empowers them to counter the propaganda they received from MSM and school and it lets them counter the propaganda in people like Robert.

          True Robert is such a delightfully extreme case that we need say nothing and most folk will see the problem. But there are always those who are closer to liberal that need a little help breaking the chains that bind them.

          • JeffH

            I certainly can’t argue with your logic. LOL!

          • Vicki

            It’s my simple mind :)

          • JeffH

            Vicki, you’re not alone and so, so right. I believe that sometimes the answers are much simpler than they appear.

        • Vigilant

          JeffH:

          I haven’t seen any of Flush’s postings here. Do you think he morphed into a newer, dumber version and became Robert?

          • JeffH

            Vigilant, not to worry, he’ll be back for another round unless, like American Liberal, he’s finally ignored and fades away like a bad memory.

      • Bruce D.

        Vicki I am not good at spelling either. I tend to spell along the lines of my accent. How do you find that spell checker? I only know of the one in Hotmail.

        • JeffH

          Buce, I use http://www.iespell.com/ ieSpell – A Spell Checker for Internet Explorer

          • Bruce D.

            JeffH, you are very kind to post the download. It is something I have wanted for a long time and I appreciate it very much.

        • Vicki

          In my case I use firefox. It is built in.

          • libertytrain

            Vicki – me too – love it.

  • Roger

    What a cute little story!

    But you left out the part about the young settler who broke his leg and almost died, the year after communism was abolished, but was nursed back to health and fed by his neighbors until he could produce his own food again the next year.

    That sounds kind of socialistic to me.

    • Vicki

      Sounds like Christian Charity to me. To be socialistic there would have to be a government that took at gunpoint from the rest to care for this injured individual. And of course to maintain power over the individual the government would keep him on welfare.

      • http://yahoo Robert

        Vicki, just like the rest of your repuke buddies, you didn’t refute his post with facts, and you just gave your wrapped repuke opinion. Why do all repukes, ignore stubborn little things?

        • American Citizen

          All you’re giving is your flawed opinions.

          • http://yahoo Robert

            american citizen, the repuke god reagan said, “Facts are stubborn little things.” He couldn’t handle any facts, he could only spout out rehearsed simple lines, from his simple little mind.

            Do you also have a simple little mind?

          • Jana

            No Mr. Communist,
            You are the one with the simple LITTLE mind.

          • Kate8

            And Robert is STILL controlling this thread!

          • Vicki

            The thread is down the left hand side. These are merely branches and can easily be ignored.

        • Vicki

          Are you asking me to verify his story? I accepted it at face value and observed that it was (as stated) an example of Christian Charity not Socialism. No need to refute any facts the prima facie evidence is there in the story.

        • JLC

          Robert — So far, I have seen no facts from you — only unsupported accusations! More than 50 years ago, I warned fellow members of my local of the United Steelworkers that American labor was, at that time, in the process of pricing itself completely out of the world market. Well — congratulations guys! You’ve done it!!!

          • Bruce D.

            Thanks for sharing that reality JLC. It is a concept Socialist cannot understand. Now Unions want all Americans to bail out their pension plans. Someone making $20 an hour non union is forced to contribute to the welfare of a union worker who is making $45 to $75 dollars an hour with benefits.

    • Barbara

      Actually that is being neighborly. Above all it is being a good Christian. There are times when a person needs help. It has to do with knowing the difference in helping someone in need and letting a lazy person take advantage of you.

    • Get Real

      good point, but it was capitalism that allowed the neighbors to have enough to share with the poor boy and nurse him back to health? So I believe it was charity that saved the boy and charity was made possible by capitalism.

      • http://yahoo Robert

        Is that the same companionate conservatism? Repukes don’t really have any compassion, unless, it helps rich repukes, to get richer!

        • Get Real

          Robert, get some facts. Conservatives give more to charity than liberals. The richest member of congress are Democrates. Also, I guess you don’t know that liberals would love to close your mines.

        • Angel Wannabe

          Your not only sour on the Republicans, you seem to indicate the wealthy STOLE to create they’re wealth!___Preparedness + Oppertunity = SUCCESS__Rather than b*tch about others, why don’t you try it for yourself??__You’ve got the same freedom to do so, like any of the rest of us!__Sounds to me like your just being miserable___and You’ve got a bad case of the ENVIES!

        • Chalmer

          Robert,
          People who cannot make an intelligent argument in a debate, will resort to name calling: like (“repuke”)
          Chalmer

          • Vicki

            Shhhhh… Don’t tell him. He provides an excellent example of your point.

        • JeffH

          Robert? I would like to know your thoughts about Obama being raised by a communist mother and father and embracing Marxism and communism throughout his life? Also through his education and associations, working with the likes of ACORN as a Marxist community organizer, embracing the teachings of Saul Alinsky? Garnering the full monetory and organizational support of the anti-American and Nazi collaberator George Soros.

          Obama’s socialist backing goes back at least to 1996, when he received the endorsement of the Chicago branch of the Democratic Socialists of America (DSA) for an Illinois state senate seat. Later, the Chicago DSA newsletter reported that Obama, as a state senator, showed up to eulogize Saul Mendelson, one of the “champions” of “Chicago’s democratic left” and a long-time socialist activist.

          Of course, you, Robert, being a communist yourself would appreciate this link to Obama’s Ties to Socialism, Marxism, and Communism.
          Obama’s Father Wrote About Socialism, Obama’s Mother Was a “Communist Sympathizer”, Obama’s Parents Met in a Russian Class (Back then it was the Communist USSR), Obama’s Teen Mentor was Frank Marshall Davis, who was publicly identified as a member of the Communist Party USA and arranged for Obama’s college education to be paid by a very wealth Saudi, Obama Attended Socialist Conferences at Cooper Union, Obama’s Run for the Illinois State Senate was Launched by a Fundraiser Organized at Bill Ayers’ and Bernardine Dorhn’s(Weather Underground bombers)Chicago Home, Obama Attended Several Meetings with the Democratic Socialists in Chicago and Was even Endorsed by Them, Many Obama Supporters Idolize Che Guervara, The Communist Party USA Endorsed Obama, Obama’s Church is Rooted in Liberation Theology which is Rooted in Marxism.

          “It’s because you have an obligation to yourself. Because our individual salvation depends on collective salvation.” – Barack Obama

          “The great task before our founders was putting into practice the ideal that government could simultaneously serve liberty and advance the common good. and Government, he believed, had an important role to play in advancing our common prosperity.” – Barack Obama

          Collective? Common prosperity? “the ultimate goal of socialism is common prosperity” Source: Yang Chungui, The Marxist
          http://obamaism.blogspot.com/

    • Ted Crawford

      There is nothing socialistic about it! Socialism is when the government takes from some to redistribute to those they choose to recieve it. In the case you mention the givers decieded to whom it would be given, that is simply good citizenship!

      • Kate8

        Ted, The real irony is that Obama and his communist cronies are taking from the working stiff and giving to the ultra rich elite rather than the poor who worship him.

        How is it that they haven’t figured this out?

    • Dennis

      It was socialism by the individual, not forced by the government. At the rate they were going, he probably would have already been dead without the change. As it was he was able to survive through the generosity of his friends, not the forced taking from his friends by the government to give to him. Capitalism as a government system still works better. Leave helping others to the individual.

      • Vigilant

        Dennis,

        Slight correction: Capitalism is an economic system, our government is a republic. Caitalism thrives under the free market system accommodated by our Constitution.

        Forgive me, but I had to make the point. Your head is right and you’re on the correct side of the argument.

  • THIRD PARTY

    WOW,ROBERT,AND ANN ARE CLUELESS SHILLS FOR SOCIALISM.THIS IS RETARDATION AT IT’S PEAK.

  • Winnie

    Happy Thanksgiving to the Second People of America. Thanks to the First Nations people, the pilgrims lived to produce all the democrats and the republicans of the United States of America. One of you had it right and had a good Thanksgiving with his family. One good American at least in this bunch.

  • marie

    Does the dipstick know any other word? He no doubt thinks he is original but he is verry tiresome…Please enlarge your vocabulary, knob !!

    • http://yahoo Robert

      repuke, repuke, repuke……….

      • marie

        So dipstick knows who he is …..I love it

      • Vicki

        Robert. Repeating a word that you have already used over and over does not really qualify as enlarging your vocabulary.

      • Vigilant

        My God, what a spiteful, childish brat he is.

  • Dennis

    There were many comments earlier about the constitution, slavery, and the right of women to vote. The constitution allows for amendments and provides the methods to make the amendments. Amendments to the constitution become a part of the constitution. Therefore, the constitution does remove slavery and allow women to vote.

    The problem we have today is that we have liberals who say the constitution should be a changing document to say whatever they would like it to say. If you want to change the constitution, the constitution allows for the change and provides the method for changing it. It does not allow for changing it by judges or by executive orders of the president. If you think it should be changed and can get enough people to agree, you can get any change you want.

    • http://yahoo Robert

      Repukes want to revert, to the constitution, and do away with the amendments. Repukes will not be happy, until slavery is legal again. Just look at the posts, defending rich repuke capitalists.

      I will never kiss a rich repuke’s arse!

      [Offensive statement removed]

      • booker

        MAYBE YOU SHOULD,THAT WAY YOU CAN MOVE OUT OF YOUR SHACK ON THE MOUNTAIN SIDE,AND GET A REAL JOB,INSTEAD OF FEEDING OFF OF OTHER PEOPLES SUCCESS.

        • http://yahoo Robert

          Booker, what is a real job? I’ve been a Motorcycle Mechanic, Carryout Person, WV Union Underground Miner, Salaried Underground Maintenance Engineer, Manufacturing Engineer, and CNC Machine Operator. Through out all those jobs, I never had to kiss a rich repuke’s rear.

          Repukes define a real job, as being a business owner, and taking advantage of their employees, i.e. substandard wages, and no benefits. No thanks, I’ll support Liberal causes.

          • JimH

            Robert, I see a list of people you worked for. SOMEONE signed your paycheck. You did a job and were compensated. Who said anything about kissing butts? Only you. Since I’ve never worked for a homeless person, I will take a wild guess and say your employers were well off enough to be able to hire you. Even the mine owner who hired union help,is the one who paid you(not the union). Why do you believe a republican employer doesn’t compensate their emplyees as fair as other employers? Or wants his butt kissed instead of just wanting the employee to do their job? If an employer doesn’t meet your needs in the payrole area you are free to look for someone who will pay enough.(you weren’t sold into slavery, You went to the employer asking them for a job)

          • blackman

            Those comments are ignorant robert,,rich people are the only one’s who hire people,did you ever work for a poor person,your a moron.

          • dstk

            Robet I agree! most of the time the bigger they, companies-corporation (and their management board investers) are the more they take advantage and control

            Jim H, yes in a perfect world, but it is by no means is perfect, not all people are honest or get to where they are honestly and fairly, but they cover up with the idea that it is just free enterprise, capitalism they earned it, they always earned it… well maybe not so much. Many earned it on the backs of others, because they had money they had power and control and so on…
            I think it was Ben Franklin that said (something to the effect) in a perfect world we would need no laws…

          • Barbara

            You do realize you are paying the union for the right to work at your job. You work for your employer who pays you for your work. You in turn pay the union to keep your job, regardless of the quality of your work. The employer is not allowed to fire you should you not do your job to their standards.

          • Bruce D.

            JimH well put. My guess Robert is a loffer and wants the union to protect him from being fired. We have all seem his type. You show up on the job and stay for eight hours and that should be enough. You shouldn’t have to work too. The bigger problem is his type is teaching that mentality to the youth.

      • Vicki

        Robert writes:
        “Repukes want to revert, to the constitution, and do away with the amendments.”

        Do you have ANY proof of that AT ALL?

        Waiting. (Not holding my breath :) )

        • Karolyn

          AHA! Vicki, you guys say stuff like that all the time without proof. What’s good for the goose is good for the gander.

          • Vigilant

            Prove it!

            (:-)

          • Vicki

            Actually Karolyn you will observe if you actually read my writings that I do offer cites and links to validate my assertions. Something you should learn to do as well.

  • Mike Keller

    I do not understand the comments I have seen, its like the people making them are reading something else, and not the real Thanksgiving story. I think the author is right own, and if anyone has another version, let them put it out there for us to read, or just take history as it is and SHUT UP because the man has done his home work, unlike the rest of you who are making these silly remarks, and have NO CLUE!

    • http://yahoo Robert

      Mike Keller, you have not done your homework. Thanksgiving, is not about a rich repuke, enjoying the spoils of their suppression of the working class, it is about sharing one’s possession (food) with others, and being grateful, to Jesus Christ, and not a false god, as repukes worship reagan.

      Mike Keller, you stfu. Or maybe, along with the rest of your repuke buddies, you want to eliminate the first amendment?

      • booker

        HOW SOON THEY FORGET THE KOOL AID OBAMA HAS SPEWED.

      • Vicki

        Robert writes:
        “…enjoying the spoils of their suppression of the working class,…”

        Since the context is directly above I am not taking your comment out of context. Not that it needs a context for my point.

        My Robert. You identify yourself well as a Communist agitator. But then again we suspected that for a bit now.

      • Vicki

        Robert writes:
        “Mike Keller, you stfu. Or maybe, along with the rest of your repuke buddies, you want to eliminate the first amendment?”

        Do you know what hypocrisy is?

      • Bruce D.

        Robert judging by your comments I believe that once you get to work you are one of those who try to find ways to avoid working. No one can have as much vile and hatred as you do and have a clear conscience. You are hiding your own crimes like loafting and taking money without putting out the effort to earn it.

      • http://?? Joe H.

        Robert,
        You tell him to STFU and then ask HIM if he wants to do away with the ammendment that guarantees the right of free speech?!?!?!?!

  • http://www.gunthorp.com Gardner Behrends

    The story about the young settler who broke his leg illustrates not socialistic, but charitable, and just downright neighborly ethics. The key to understanding this incident is that the temporary aid allowed the settler to return to free market capitalism and success. Socialism may not have provided the incentive to get back on his feet so quickly, and his sense of entitlement might cause bad feelings which would alienate his neighbors who had been coerced to redistribute their wealth.

  • Angel Wannabe

    Another take on the “Story of Thanksgiving”___

    http://www.wallbuilders.com/LIBissuesArticles.asp?id=17984

  • http://none sean moor

    The only voting rights,women should have,is…THE RIGHT TO VOTE MEN TO OFFICE!!! ITS A MANS WORLD,BABY!!!

    • Angel Wannabe

      SM__”uh oh”, someone left the cage door open again!___:)

      • http://yahoo Robert

        Angel Wannabe, isn’t this what repukes want, a return to the bible, and the constitution? Liberals have always supported women’s, worker’s, social, and equal rights. What have repukes supported? They have only supported the rich, the suppression of the poor, and their narrow interpretation of the bible.

        • Angel Wannabe

          Robert, I’ve said all I’m sayin to you honey, when you feel like not talking smack, and having a real conversation, we’ll then maybe I’ll get back to ya. I’m off and on here today anyway, I’ve go stuff to do___Chow! :)

        • THIRD PARTY

          YOUR A SIMPLETON,ALL AMENDMENTS PASSED,THAT HAVE ANYTHING TO DO WITH WOMAN’S RIGHTS,FREEDOM FOR SLAVES,FAIR WAGE LAWS,FAIR WORK CONDITIONS HAVE ALL BEEN CREATED BY A REPUBLICAN CONGRESS,DO SOME HOMEWORK YOUR SOUNDING DUMBER EVERY POST.

          • http://yahoo Robert

            Then why don’t you support them, and not rich repukes?

          • Vicki

            So Robert you are ok with Republicans just not rich ones? But rich Democrats are OK?

            (Not expecting an answer just having fun with the Hypocrisy. ;) )

          • Kate8

            Vicki – I always just find it amazing that, while lefties rail on abut rich Republicans, they choose to completely IGNORE the fact that the richest of the rich, elite of elite, are the DEMOCRATS. And mainly ones who’ve never done a days honest work.

            They go from their socialist college indoctrination, or twisted law degree, straight into politics. Spoiled trust-fund babies who know nothing about starting at the bottom and working hard to succeed.

            They think ultra wealth is only for them, while the rest of us are supposed to serve them. And their unwashed minions seem to agree with them.

      • http://?? Joe H.

        Angel Wannabe,
        I wonder if he shuffles as he walks and carries a club??? Sean that is!!!

        • Angel Wannabe

          JoeH, Man O man the freaks are out this weekend!!!___whoa!

    • Karolyn

      Sean – Do you belong to the old “he-man woman haters’ club?” If so, you are the type of person who keeps crimes against women going.

      • Vigilant

        Good point, Karolyn. That ridiculous statement by Sean is best left as it is. After he made it, no one can take him seriously in anything he says.

  • John T.

    good luck with trying to have an intelligent conversation.

    • http://yahoo Robert

      John T, if by intelligent conversation, you really mean the twisting of facts, by repukes, then join in, and spread repuke lies.

      • Jana

        You cannot have a civil conversation with a Communist. You have been blinded by all of that coal dust and HATRED. I feel very sorry for you.

        • Bob Wire

          maybe so Jana, but I believe he walked a path that few of us has walked and has no illusions about who and what helped him in his journey and offered him comfort.

          There is few old coal miners left any more. I had the opportunity to met and have a nice long chat with one as I was dating his granddaughter at one time. The stories he told. Did you know they kept horses down in the mine? They lived their whole lives deep in the mine never to see daylight. They were considered more valuable then three men, for they knew their job so well and a vital part of mining.

          • Jana

            Bob,
            He has walked a path all right, its one of bitterness with a streak of mean and a very sour attitude. I have known people like that and they are not fit to be around other people.
            Besides, he isn’t the only one that has worked hard in life. I have a family full of very hard workers.
            They are truly tough men. My husband happens to be one of them. He is an extremely hard worker, and has worked in very trying conditions. He is a man, a tough man, but a gentleman too. In fact, he has even sewn himself up when he cut himself. I made him go to the Dr. the next day for a tetanus shot and the Dr. said he needed to examine what he had done first. He was amazed and asked him how he did it by himself. (Actually he made me tie the knots)
            My husband has worked in places overseas that was quite primitive.He has worked in areas that had no amenities and had to work 16 hour days 7 days a week. He knows and is not afraid of hard, tiring, or hot dirty work.
            In fact several times while he was eating meals in some of these areas he would look down and see worms crawling around. He had to go through parasite cleanses when he came home.
            He also has worked in Communist countries, after going to school for Communism so as not to break their laws so he wouldn’t end up in prison. He has experienced the sad and bad of communism.
            One time someone said a word I had never heard before and I asked my husband if he had ever heard it. His answer was,”Yes, but I won’t bring those words or thoughts into our home.” That is the kind of real man that I am married to. He is an extremely good daddy, and a wonderful husband and my best friend.

          • Jana

            By the way, he did tell me what that word meant. I also chose not to bring those words and thoughts into our home. I learned a lot of words and strange thoughts from my boss (female).
            we also CHOOSE to follow the Lord in our home and the Bible which I CHOOSE to believe says in Philippians 4:8 ….whatsoever things are honest,whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, what- soever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things.

          • Kate8

            Jana – Enjoyed that post.

            There aren’t many men left like your husband. Or should I say, there aren’t many real men on the Left! LOL.

            Seriously, he sounds like one in a million. Way to go, girl.

          • Jana

            Thanks, I am blessed.

          • Al Sieber

            Jana, good post. I work with the kind of men like your husband is, in fact I grew up with a lot of hard working people like that. your post brought back a lot of old memories, thanks.

          • Jana

            Al S.,
            You probably are one of those kind of men. :)

      • http://persoaliberty.com Mike W.

        Hey Robert remember your statment befor were you said you got a job an bought a TRUCK and then RENTED a home and you were contributing to socity who did you RENT your home from a rich REPUBLICAN or was it provide to you by your Union just curious anddo you still rent or did you become a proud capitalist and BUY YOUR HOME , by the way Dr.Phil has a place for you on his couch .

        • http://yahoo Robert

          I own my home, from the meaningful wages; I received as a UMWA Union Member. If it was up to republicans, i.e. rand paul, I would have died in those mines. Rand paul wants to roll back, all the rules and regulations that allowed me to survive, 20 years underground. No thank you, I’ll support the government (OSHA, MESHA), any time.

          If you’re really interested, do some research in WV mining, and see how the government, and UMWA, saved many lives. Republicans won’t admit it, but they to profited, from rules and regulations, because their unsafe mines, became safer, and they didn’t have to reopen a mine, after it blew up.

          Have any of you conservatives; did any real labor, underground, in 5-1/2 feet tall coal seam? How about while standing in 8” of mud, and water, on Midnight shift. And while there is bad top, flaking off and dropping in the water, splashing you. And while you’re beside the belt, shoving a #4 shovel load of muck, onto the belt. Oh yeah, the belt has bad splices, to rip the shovel, out of your hands.

          I thought so, there are not any, and I’m not surprised, at all. All republicans are the fat bosses, and they don’t get their white hands dirty.

          • Vicki

            So tell us again why you like coal mining. You obviously do cause you did it for 20 years.

          • (WIA) Wild Indian in Action

            Robert, I am a full blood, three tribes, a Proud American and a Republican, no white hands here fellow! I am 74 winters, retired have several properties (all payed in full) very nice income from the fruit of my labors and working smarter, investing and following the advice of my parents and smart investors (Repukes and Demos), Never hung around the fort to get a hand out, or joined a union. Go out and excel with the intelligence GOD gave you, said my parents and for your ignorant way of thinking we are from Matriarchal Tribes. You are in a very sorry state of mind Robert, So my advice to you is to be Polite and go in the Communist Utopia CUBA.

          • http://persoaliberty.com Mike W.

            Last comment I make to you I am going to another one of the sites But Robert you ever been to war ever been shot at ever do anything for your country besides put it down and bitch an moan .Coal minning might be a ruff job but I know of harder ones try being shot at and digging a trench at the same time .Grow up get life …. People have died for your rite to talk the garbage you do ….

          • Vicki

            Wait till he has to put out a raging fire in an apartment building full of live people. Now that is a hard sooty job and fire cares not one wit about Roberts unions or government.

          • http://eddie47d@gmail.com eddie47d

            Most fire fighters are government and union jobs so your point is mote.

          • Vicki

            Eddie47d. So government IS exempt from its own laws. Figures

          • JeffH

            Vicki, you’ll note that in the majority of eddie47d’s posts he will generalize and use the word “MOST” exclusively but never provide anything more than his “expertize” in these generalities with the word “most” inserted.

          • Vicki

            Oh yes I long ago noticed his technique. I notice his lack of cites too.

          • http://eddie47d@gmail.com eddie47d

            Some of my best friends are firefighters and all union.I don’t know of any in the Metro area cities that are not. So put away your silly put-downs.

          • Jana

            eddie,
            It still doesn’t make Unions right. Unions are also exempt from the new Health Care Bill. Thanks to Obama making deals.

          • http://?? Joe H.

            robbie, my boy,
            I have been a republican all my voting life. I have never been a boss, except now and I don’t employ anybody so the only one I boss is me. I’m not rich by any means unless you count my friends. (of all races I might add!) I own my house, three cars one a 1995, a 2005 and a 2008 all paid for. I don’t smoke or drink so I could afford these things I have. I have never looked for a hand-out, always given a good days work for a good days wages, my family comes first except when it comes to my God, I can shoot just as straight as most, and most important to me I’m honest and can look myself in the mirror!!!
            I could be on 100% disability as I have four pins and screws and more blown out discs but I would rather EARN my way through life! I have worked under four different unions and after that I’d just as soon work non-union! I have seen too many worthless pieces of humanity get job protection from the union just because they were union members and that is not ok with me!!!

          • Al Sieber

            Robert, it’s MSHA, not MEHA, Mining Safety Health Administration. nobody told you,or forced you to work there, you could of been a Brain Surgeon, or at least a Social Worker.

          • Vicki

            Or a fisherman

          • Al Sieber

            Vicki, if he was a fisherman someone would of thrown him over board, maybe for Shark bait.

  • THIRD PARTY

    ROBERT PLEASE ILLUMINATE US WITH YOUR BRILLIANCE.YOUR POST SOUND LIKE YOU ARE A CARD MEMBER OF THE COMMUNIST PARTY,SAME AS PROGRESSIVES.NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT,EXCEPTS IT’S FAILED SEVERAL HUNDREDS OF TIMES THROUGHOUT HISTORY.EVERY DOCUMENTED SOCIETY THAT HAS FAILED IN HISTORY,FAILED THROUGH COMMUNISM,AND SOCIALISM.PLEASE ENLIGHTEN US.

    • http://yahoo Robert

      I’m a proud Liberal Democrat, not a repugnant repuke.

      • THIRD PARTY

        I’M SURE YOU ARE PROUD,SO WAS HITLER,GIVE SOME IDEA’S EINSTEIN.

      • Claire

        Robert–You are like the Energizer Bunny–you take a licking and keep on ticking.

        • TRUTH

          I THINK ROBERT DOES THE LICKING,OF THE JACK BOOTED MENTALITY OF THE NUTTY COMMIE.

      • Kate8

        Robert – Oh, but REPUGNANT nontheless.

      • JLC

        Robert — There is no such thing as a PROUD liberal democrat! There are a lot of ARROGANT liberal democrats but few, if any, have recently done anything of which to be proud!

  • THIRD PARTY

    ROBERT GIVE ME ONE EXAMPLE OF YOUR IDEA’S,JUST ONE,WE CANT WAIT.

  • ROBERTS MOM.

    HONEY TIME FOR LUNCH,COME UP FROM THE BASEMENT.

    • http://yahoo Robert

      OK mommy, time to quit annoying repukes.

      • http://persoaliberty.com Mike W.

        And put some pants on …..

      • http://?? Joe H.

        And DON’T FORGET TO CHANGE YOUR DIAPER BEFORE YOU COME UP!!!!

  • THIRD PARTY

    STILL WAITING ROBERT,LETS SEE THOSE GREAT IDEA’S.

  • ROBERT

    I have no idea’s,my thoughts come from the government.

    • Vicki

      We noticed. Just not sure which communist government.

  • Scott

    Robert, I will buy you a one way plane ticket to the “compassionate” communist/socialist/progressive country of your choice. I’ll email you my Visa Platinum card number whenever you want to go: Delta’s ready when you are you ridiculous Dumbocrap

  • ROBERT

    I’m a tool,sorry but my mind is full of hate,and ignorance.

    • Jana

      At least you admit it!

    • Vicki

      Careful. I detect another Robert out there. Our “hate republican” Robert is out to lunch.

      • libertytrain

        Bingo, one is masquerading -

        • http://?? Joe H.

          libertytrain,
          you are very right. He’s masquerading as a human being!!!

          • libertytrain

            I was incorrect – they both appeared to be doing that —- :)

  • Linda

    Despite a comprehensive repudiation by historians of the belief that the original Pilgrims were socialists who only began to succeed and prosper once they turned to capitalism, on this Thanksgiving conservative leaders and writers continue to spread the urban legend that the settlers were almost doomed by their socialist-ways.

    Some background: according to real historians, the Pilgrims held their land in common “in the interest of realizing a profit sooner, and was only intended for the short term; historians say the Pilgrims were more like shareholders in an early corporation than subjects of socialism.” But the settlers, who came from different part of England, “spoke different dialects and had different methods of farming, and looked upon each other with great wariness.” Because of such difficulties, the colony scrapped the land arrangements in 1623, yet the colony held the first Thanksgiving in 1621 and the original “arrangement did not produce famine.”

    • http://yahoo Robert

      Thank you, Linda.

    • Scott

      Linda you have no clue

    • Jana

      Linda,
      This is revisionists history, not True History.

    • Vicki

      Linda talks a good story but offers no cites or links. Try again please.

    • Vigilant

      Linda,

      The earlier settlement of Jamestown (1607) has a similar story of a failed socialism until Capt. John Smith dicarded the sharing system and instituted a capitalistic system.

      Did your revisionist historians attack and dispose of that story as well?

  • Chalmer

    Robert,
    Those who are loosing the debate often resort to name calling.
    Example: (“Repukes”),
    Chalmer

    • http://eddie47d@gmail.com eddie47d

      …or Dumbocrats or Odumbo,chocolate marxist.You get the drift. Robert isn’t wrong in what he is saying but should lay of the name calling.He’s only poking you all in the eye for all of your name calling over the months. It’s kind of like those stand up comedians who use the word shi* in every sentence. You want to smack them, for the joke would be just as funny without the cuss words.

      • Jana

        Its really odd, the only ones I ever hear saying anything to do with chocolate in referring to Obama, are the Liberals claiming the rest of us use those terms.

        • Kate8

          Jana, Neither have I. Besides, it would spoil chocolate for me forever.

          The liberals make things up. Nancy Pelosi and her claims of TeaPartiers carrying guns and wearing swastikas to rallies comes to mind.

          But then, the Left never met a lie they couldn’t embellish.

          • Jana

            Kate8
            Too true. LOL

          • http://eddie47d@gmail.com eddie47d

            I believe it is Craig who keeps using the chocolate remark.

        • JeffH

          There are a couple around here that can’t refrain from using the term from time to time, but they are the exceptions, and do not represent the majority of us that abhor any type of racism. Of course, the liberal mentality cannot distinguish the difference.

          • JeffH

            …i41?

        • Karolyn

          Yes – i41 is the worst user of derogatory terms.

          • JeffH

            Wow! Big surprise. Let’s see, mmm, that’s (1) ONE.

          • http://eddie47d@gmail.com eddie47d

            Slickporsche and WIA also.

  • Leon

    Robert you go on and on about rich Republicans I know a few Democrats That have money as well. Having money is not a bad thing! If it were not for the ambitious who become wealthy then people would not have jobs. There is one more class of people that you, I am sure, know nothing about. That are the self employed, which I am one and have been over 50 years. I have not waited for someone to furnish me with anything. Try it!

    • Eric Bischoff

      Having money is not a bad thing.

      A bad thing is when 1% of the country has more money than ever and the 99% others have now less than ever.

      What’s bad is when the $13 Trillion indebtedness is from speculation and the speculators are all part of the 1% doing better and they are the ones who have trashed the world’s economy.

      What’s bad is when the 99% were forced to produce bail out money and the speculators then paid themselves multimillion dollar bonuses.

      What’s bad is when the banksters play both sides, sell weapons to both sides and constantly foment wars so that they can keep getting richer and richer.

      What’s bad is when the 1% realize that they have squeezed everything from the 99% and that the only thing left to get their hands on is our Social Security trust fund.

      That’s when we should bring back the guillotine and park it at the entrance of the Hamptons where a lot of the 1% go play on the weekends.

      • JeffH

        Eric, “the only thing left to get their hands on is our Social Security trust fund.” LBJ and the federal government made sure that wouldn’t happen. In 1968 President Lyndon Johnson made a change in the budget presentation by including Social Security and all other trust funds in a”unified budget.”

        Since 1968, the assets in the Social Security trust funds consists of Treasury securities, this means that the taxes collected under the Social Security payroll tax are in effect being lent to the federal government, placed in the “General Fund” to be expended for whatever present purposes the government requires. In this indirect sense, one could say that the Social Security trust funds are being spent for non-Social Security purposes. In 1969, this essentially created the myths associated with the governments accounting of balanced or un-balanced budgets.

      • Vigilant

        Eric blathers, “What’s bad is when the 99% were forced to produce bail out money and the speculators then paid themselves multimillion dollar bonuses.”

        You are finally getting it! The operative word in that sentence is “forced.” That’s your beloved BIG GOVERNMENT at work, Nikolai. Those speculators should have been stiffed on the bailout $$$ and hung out to dry.

        There may be some hope for you yet, once you decide which side you’re arguing for/against.

  • http://www.personalliberty.com/contact-us/ Personal Liberty Support

    Dear Personal Liberty Family,
    The person who has been posting as ROBERT, has also been posting as TRUTH, THIRD PARTY blackman, ROBERT’S MOM and booker. If you will follow the thread you will see that he has been working to disrupt conversation on the site. Please ignore him.
    Thanks.

    • Jana

      Thank you, I will definitely ignore him.

    • Angel Wannabe

      PLS___Consider it done!

    • Vicki

      Waiting for authentication of PLS.

      • libertytrain

        Vicki, trust me – this note was in fact from Personal Liberty support —

        • JeffH

          libertytrain, I concur…

        • Vicki

          Some guy named Jones said that to me once :) I have already stated the minimum requirement to validate the message. However since you offered what are your authentication protocols.

          Thats fancy talk for how would you know :)

          • libertytrain

            I asked an expert…. :) Sometimes, it’s all in who you know to ask about such things or being in the right place at the right time —-

          • Vicki

            Reliable sources tell you. :) ok
            they have my email address. They can send me a note if they like :) I will see it soon enough ;)

          • libertytrain

            Vicki – I don’t think they send us emails re our postings….

          • Jana

            Vicki,
            To me the proof is in the fact that since he has been outed we don’t see him posting anymore. Now he might try his devious deception under another name but he has been outed. He is a sicko.

    • JeffH

      Now doesn’t that just support what many of us have been thinking and saying for so long now. Not surprised but thanks for outing it!

    • Al Sieber

      You got it!!!!

  • Cal

    No wonder your teachers were so upset with you. Blatant distortion of history tends to not go over well with people who know enough to see the distortion. The reality is that the socialist system the Pilgrims used was a major factor in their survival. If they’d gone with the every man for himself system you advocate, they’d have ended up as just another failed colony.

    • http://yahoo Robert

      Thank you, Cal.

      • Eric Bischoff

        I have to hand it to you Robert, you put up a good fight. This crowd will gang up on you when one dares SPEAK TRUTH TO POWER. I think you upset them because you used their methods.

        They see nothing wrong with their own name calling and name distorting. They’ll easily call Obama obumer or a marxist or a communist. They see nothing wrong with calling liberals socialist or Marxists .But you dared to use Repukes! and you stuck to it over and over.

        They should look in the mirror when they are the ones doing most of the derisive name calling. They mostly refuse to address facts and often resort to ridicule when they have nothing. They will often accuse you of having no facts when you’ve just presented them with a dozen bullet points.

        It didn’t take long to realize that unless something came from the Heritage Foundation or Fox it has no value at all to them. You know you’ve got them foaming at the mouth when they resort to bible thumping.

        It is sad that repukes, if I may borrow your term, cannot find it in their heart to open up a civil conversation to try and understand how someone different than them thinks and if there is something, anything, to learn from another point of view.

        It’s war with them and nothing else will do. There is no place in their world for diplomacy. They see that as a weakness. Humm I do belive we are now considering diplomacy with the Taliban. Sacrilege! Do you think maybe we should have tried that first and saved a few Trillions?

        There is no place for compassion and the down trodden. Get a job you bums. Let’s go back to pre-OSHA and too bad if you got hurt and couldn’t work anymore. Too bad if your husband died on the job or at war and you have 5 children to raise. I don’t care, let the church take care of you now.

        Hell who needs the EPA let’s go back to dumping dioxin in the river. Those were the days.

        Get govt out of my life is their only mantra. They want business to have free reign. Let’s go back to robber baron times. Let’s go back to when we had slaves, women couldn’t vote, children worked long hours in factories, and white men, who stole it all from the American Indians, owned everything.

        It reminds me of that grumpy old man satire “In my days”…..

        • Vigilant

          Eric once again shows his ignorance of history.

          “It’s war with them and nothing else will do. There is no place in their world for diplomacy. They see that as a weakness. Humm I do belive (sic) we are now considering diplomacy with the Taliban. Sacrilege! Do you think maybe we should have tried that first and saved a few Trillions?”

          Especially, “Do you think maybe we should have tried that first and saved a few Trillions?” Tell me, sonny, what form of diplomacy would have stopped the tragic death of 3,000 people on 9/11?

          What was the result of “diplomacy” in stopping Hitler’s rampage? How effective was diplomacy with the Iranians during the hostage crisis? How much success have we had with appeasing North Korea every time it rattles the saber? Diplomacy did a wonderful job stopping Hussein from invading Kuwait, and later, how many UN Security Council resolutions did he thumb his nose at before he had to pay the piper?

          Give me ONE case in recent history where our diplomacy was successful in averting war with a tyrant.

          Military action is what takes place when all diplomatic means have been exhausted (re: the American Revolution). Had you been a member of the Continental Congress, you would have acted like Pennsylvania’s John Dickinson, a coward who would have taken diplomacy to to its ultimate extreme of giving up to British demands. You would have refused, as he did, to sign the Declaration of Independence.

          • JeffH

            Vigilant, well said my friend. Eric tries so hard to appear as something he’s not, an old school progressive, when in fact he’s just another modern mainstream liberal prancing around using the “poor little children” analogies as his weapon of choice.

            Remember the old saying of “if it ain’t broke, don’t fix it”? Well, the self serving politicians with the support of their socialist/communist progressive flock have done a wonderfull job of breaking the backbone of America’s freedom and liberty for all. We’re just trying to restore America, fix it with the only tools we have. I certainly don’t intend to let a few mouthy communists get in the way.

          • http://?? Joe H.

            Vigilant,
            you know how it is with these progressives, they are more worried about money that a few thousand paltry lives!!! Just once I’d like to see one of them have to tell a few of the family members that their brother, sister, mother, father,ECT is DEAD!!! I’ve had to do it and it’s one of the worst feelings you’ve ever felt!!

          • Eric Bischoff

            Vigilant I guess you are one of these people who still believes that Saddam had WMDs and that the Iraqis and Afghans attacked us on 9/11. When actually we were attacked by 19 Saudis, you know Saudi Arabia ruled by DICTATORS supported by the US and who are still the Bush Family friends. And by the way this relationship and our support of DICTATORS along with our military presence in the Middle East is why they hate us and the only demand put forth by Osama is for us to get your troops out of the Middle East. Oh what a concept!

          • Eric Bischoff

            No I would rather act like Tom Paine. Write a book make some money and donate it to alternative non profit causes that support healthy, sustainable, ecological cooperative living instead of spewing out garbage about how tax breaks for the rich and perpetual wars are going to save us.

      • JeffH

        Eric Bischoff, can you hear the laughter?

        • Karolyn

          Why Jeff? Are you laughing at yourself? If you would only take a minute to look at the other side once in a while and think about what is said before jumping on the ridicule bandwagon, you just might find that we do have something to say. I most assuredly understand where you guys are coming from, and it has given me pause and started my wheels turning. I actually, have changed some of my thinking a little. However, you are just too radical. There is no compromise in you. It’s too bad.

          • JeffH

            Oh really Karolyn? Perhaps you can school me on my “radical-isms”.

            Is it the fact that I love my country and despise Marxism/socialism/communism and don’t trust our intruding “Big” government with their push towards socialism, out of control debt and waste and deliberately ignoring their constituants because they “know what’s better for us” by forcing an unconstitutional Health Care mandate down the peoples throats. What is it that makes me so radicle. That I believe in the 2nd Amendment and my inherent right to keep and bear arms or freedom of expression or that I believe in what our forefathers so carefully concieved for America, a constitutional republic? Maybe it’s the fact that I’m outspoken about all of the above and won’t take any crap from the non-patriots and speak my mind openly.
            You tell me Karolyn…as naive as you are, you tell me!

          • Kate8

            JeffH – I think we’ve heard what the Left has to say, over and over, and there isn’t much left to consider.

            Communism, socialism, Marxism, or anything resembling those things, are simply NOT acceptable. NO, no, no, no, no and HELL NO. And no matter how much they try to FORCE it on us, it’s still NO.

            They are so like children, wanting BigDaddy to make everything fair. They tend to live by emotion instead of common sense.

          • Eric Bischoff

            No you haven’t heard what the left has to say. You also continue to assume that you know who the left is and when they are speaking. Unfortunately You’ve only heard what you wanted to hear and blocked out everything else and therefore you are missing out on the real interesting progressive voices in this country.

            The minute that something is over the CENTER line, you are outside of your comfort zone and start freaking out. How can you ever learn anything this way. Oh I keep forgetting, only the extreme right conservatives have anything meaningful to say. Only they have the truth. Everyone else is crazy or better yet a communists, marxist leninist or atheist.

            Do I denote self-righteous, bigoted zealot leanings?

            And in case some of you are confused or unclear on the real meanings of these words, which I am not wildly hurling as insults, as a lot of you seem to do here, but merely as points of reflection.

            Self-Righteous
            having or characterized by a certainty, esp. an unfounded one, that one is totally correct or morally superior

            Bigoted
            obstinately convinced of the superiority or correctness of one’s own opinions and prejudiced against those who hold different opinions

            Zealot
            a person who is fanatical and uncompromising in pursuit of their religious, political, or other ideals.

          • Jana

            Eric,
            No, you haven’t heard what the RIGHT has to say. You have blocked out everything normal and decent and have gone for your Communistic ways. You only hear what YOU want to hear.
            Communism is NOT interesting nor is it appealing for this country.

            The minute that something is over the CENTER line, you are outside of your comfort zone and YOU start freaking out. How can you ever learn anything this way?

            Oh I keep forgetting, only the extreme liberals have anything meaningful to say. Only they have the truth. Everyone else is crazy or stupid. Yes, you do represent these traits- communists, marxist leninist or atheist.

            Do I denote self-righteous, bigoted zealot leanings? Yes I do, you ERIC are all of these.

            And in case ERIC you are confused or unclear on the real meanings of these words, which I am not wildly hurling as insults, as you seem to do here, but merely as points of reflection.

            Self-Righteous
            having or characterized by a certainty, esp. an unfounded one, that one is totally correct or morally superior- – - – Yes ERIC, you do come across this way.

            Bigoted
            obstinately convinced of the superiority or correctness of one’s own opinions and prejudiced against those who hold different opinions, wow ERIC,YOU struck out again, because this represents you completely!

            Zealot
            a person who is fanatical and uncompromising in pursuit of their religious, political, or other ideals. Your religion is Communism. Your politics is Communism. You are definitely a Zealot.

          • http://eddie47d@gmail.com eddie47d

            Jeff; Karolyn understands your passion but not you’re name calling and put downs. That is the Mystery.

          • JeffH

            Eric Bischoff, we assume nothing, speaking for Kate8 also. What you have described will fit yourself and these liberals to a tee. You, on the other hand, do dance to a “different drummer” and subscribe to an older form of progressivism but with a good dose of modern liberalism. Historically, progressivism has backed some remarkable ideas. One could say the movement was principled. Yet today it risks defining its principles not on an objective standard of morality, but on the concept of pursuing whatever the next unattained idea is.

            Progressives were behind the Civil Rights movement. When America was entrenched politically and economically in slavery, progressives were the first to call for a stop to that moral evil. When women lacked the right to vote, progressivism advocated universal suffrage.

            But modern progressivism, or liberalism, seems to have reached a limit. Modern progressivism supports ideas that go beyond what the moral standards of America have historically restrained. Progression for progression’s sake is dangerous, especially if that progression leads in the wrong moral direction. Most of its historical causes up have fit within a correct view of morality and its restraints. Now it has surpassed those constraints and abandoned its moral authority.

            Today’s liberalism and the policies that it has generated arose from a conscious repudiation of the principles of the American founding. The ideal of government was for every man to be left alone and not interfered with, except when he interfered with somebody else, and that the best government was the government that did as little governing as possible.

          • JeffH

            eddie47d, the “name calling and put downs” I learned from liberals like yourself and your liberal cohorts. Karolyn didn’t waste any time showing her fangs either. In just two short years I’ve learned that I can dish it out far better than most of you liberals can…something learned is something gained…understanding the lack of substance of the attacks by my liberal enemies, when to back off and and when to keep the pressure on. Knowledge was gained by understanding Alinsky’s “Rules for Radicals”. You liberals and Alisky do go hand in hand you know. It’s important to keep the liberals reeling, defensive, on their heels and continue to maintain an aggressive offense. A pretty effective strategy I must say.

          • JeffH

            Jana, you go girl! Spot on!

          • Vigilant

            JeffH,

            Kudos for that exceptionally perceptive and cogent description of modern progressivism.

          • Kate8

            Jana – Wow! Knock-out punch!

            JeffH – Astute observations, as usual.

            Eric – I DO know how the Left thinks because for many years I hung with that crowd. It’s easy to get caught up in ideas that seem good, but take you down a bad road. The Left is caught up in ideals that have no footing in common sense, and don’t work in the real world.

            I thank God for speaking to my heart and snapping me out of it. Looking back, it was like living in denial of reality. Evil often comes cloaked as an angel of light.

          • http://?? Joe H.

            no Karolyn he and a few of us are laughing at you, eric, robert roberto, and duhhhh47 and for good reason!! The party you support is financially ruining this country by making the country’s cash worthless. Even china and Russia have walked away from the dollar!! The reason we are laughing is you refuse to see it by worshiping your holy party!! THAT my lady friend will be the ruin of you!!

          • Vicki

            Karolyn says:
            “I most assuredly understand where you guys are coming from, and it has given me pause and started my wheels turning. I actually, have changed some of my thinking a little. However, you are just too radical. There is no compromise in you. It’s too bad.”

            “Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice.”
            -Barry Goldwater Circa 1964

            “Those who seek absolute power, even though they seek it to do what they regard as good, are simply demanding the right to enforce their own version of heaven on earth.” -Barry Goldwater Circa 1964
            http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Barry_Goldwater

            So here is my rather simple problem with liberal thinking. Eric take note. Liberals seem to constantly want a corporation to protect them from a bunch of corporations that they consider evil.
            That corporation of course is government.

            To paraphrase from another infamous source I would say to liberals
            Why would I trade 3000 tyrants 1 mile away for 1 tyrant 3000 miles away. Noting in particular that the 3000 tyrants don’t have guns.
            The 1 does.

            I even have a simple test. Informed consent. Is the activity or transaction with the informed consent of the parties.

            Unlike government as openly demonstrated by Obamacare those 3000 tyrants 1 mile away have to persuade me to buy their product or service.

          • Karolyn

            Joe H. – I worship no party.

    • JeffH

      Cal, “The reality is that the socialist system the Pilgrims used was a major factor in their survival. If they’d gone with the every man for himself system you advocate, they’d have ended up as just another failed colony.”

      Nothing could be more distorted than your comment.

      William Bradford was the governor of the original Pilgrim colony, founded at Plymouth in 1621. The colony was first organized on a communal basis, as their financiers required. Land was owned in common. Pilgrims farmed communally, following the “from each according to his abilities, to each according to his needs” precept.

      By 1623, the colony suffered serious losses. Starvation was imminent.
      Bradford realized that the “communal system encouraged and rewarded waste and laziness and inefficiency, and destroyed individual initiative”. Desperate, he abolished it. He distributed private plots of land among the surviving Pilgrims, encouraging them to plant early and farm as individuals, not collectively.

      The results: a bountiful early harvest that saved the colonies. After the harvest, the Pilgrims celebrated with a day of Thanksgiving – on August 9.

      Personal responsibility and individual charity saved the Pilgrims from the failure of the collectivist system and the ultimate triumph of free enterprise.

      This is but one example of why free enterprise, along with religious freedom, were established as tenets of our freedoms that needs to be rediscovered and restored.

      • Bruce D.

        Nice blog JeffH. I am going to e-mail it to my friends and family. I am sure you will not mind.

        • JeffH

          Bruce D, have at it and please share…

  • Diane Vallon

    Chip, your article made my day! My 11th great grandfather was William Bradford, an honorable God loving man. I assume that we all want abundance, so that there is enough to care for all. History shows, that our God given free will and conscience, for the majority of Americans, has guided us to share with those in NEED. In America, we have not seen children begging in the streets, nor people fleeing by the boatload for freedom. This is what has made America great. We have always provide for those in NEED…verses those in “want”. We encourage productivity verses laziness. Those who cherish freedom “get it”. I do not understand the anger from the Liberals who seem to be shooting themselves, and future generations in the foot. God help us…Thank you for this timely article. One cannot dispute the facts even though they may try!

  • Leon

    I am sure that those on the Mayflower had unimaginable courage of commitment that is hard for us to understand or imagine. They endured terrible times. All for freedoms that SOME do not care about! Some have the same dream. Do not let that small number, who want to change us, dictate what the rest of us want. I certainly hope it’s a small number! I’m so thankful for the sacrifices of those before us to preserve our freedoms. We must not let those sacrifices be in vain. Get involved make those sacrifices mean something in your life. This nation is the last hope for freedom. If we let it slip away it will be gone forever! Those that want something else can leave we won’t let them change our preferred way! There are those that are calling to go back to the constitution excuse me! We never left it. It has been ignored, bent,stretched,perverted,trampled,cursed,lied about, it’s still there it’s not outdated or irrelevant as some would have you to believe. It just needs to be fallowed.

  • nadzieja batki

    I have read as many of the comments as I could stand. I come to realize we have a group who has studied history and pays attention to what is happening in our nation and actually THINKS. Then there is the other group who whines and feels and is dumb as a rock (actually I am insulting rocks, they are useful)and all they can do is call people repukes.

    • Kate8

      nadzieja – That about sums it up.

      Robert’s nasty attitude invalidates anything he has to say. There’s a difference between banter and being plain hateful.

  • Leon

    Cal It has always been a wonder to me how someone can read a article and completely get it wrong. I guess if you have your mind made up nothing will change it. Only when they got AWAY from socialism did they prosper. Charity and socialism are not in anyway the same thing!Blatant distortion of history tends to not go over well with people who know enough to see the distortion. I am so glad you brought that up Cal.

  • Karolyn

    A testament to the selfishness that exists in man, although there are societies that are not that way. The Shakers were one such society. They were hard workers and would store a great deal of food for the winter. They had no problem sharing their food with those who would come begging due to their not having worked as hard. They had a propensity for sharing God’s gifts, no matter the circumstances.

    • JimH

      Karolyn, When you share because you want to, that is charity, it is a virtue. when you are forced to share, because of a governmental decree that is socialism. One is virtuis the other is wrong.

      • Karolyn

        Jim – I do understand that. I just wonder if there would be enough charitable people to assist those in need if the government weren’t lending a hand. There isn’t enough to go around now. The food banks are low and many nonprofit human services groups are having a hard time helping the poor. I know they are cheats and frauds. I see them every day, but you can’t hurt everybody because of what a bunch of rotten apples are doing.

        • JeffH

          The “rotten apples” in Washington DC. Big government is behind this so called “lack” of charity. If they bug out, let the economy recover and businesses thrive, people will start working again and you can bet that people will give more to charity. That’s not what Obama and his cronies have in mind though. They are pushing for mediocrity, a total dependence on the government teat and taking the once great United States of America down a few more notches to a third world status.

          • Kate8

            JeffH – You are exactly right. When you strip people of their pride and dignity, stifle the natural instinct toward honoring a Holy Intelligence, create a class of people who demand to be taken care of by plundering those who work for it, what you have is a demoralized people with little hope. Broken spirits are not so inclined to being concerned with others.

            It is when people are free, have unlimited potential, and can use all their resources in their pursuit of happiness that they give freely to give a hand to others.

            Freedom is conducive to love. Oppression only breeds hopelessness. I don’t know why that is so hard to understand.

          • Claire

            Jeff H and Kate8 —Wise comments from both of you.

          • Jana

            JeffH and Kate 8,
            Yes yes and yes. Did you get that Karolyn?????

  • Maril

    Geez — what a bunch of “boy wonders” writing ignorant comments. Get a life — live with each other and quit trying to stomp your ridiculous right wing conservative cr– down other peoples’ throats, ok?

    • Kate8

      Maril – Who is trying to shove what down WHOSE throats?

      LOL.

    • Vicki

      Maril. Are you telling us that Obamacare is a right wing action?

  • Leon

    Maril Never seen that spelled that way before. Is your other names Cal or Robert?

  • Toby

    Ann Wood is right! Obviously GOD made a terrible mistake and mankind must now take it upon itself to correct that error. Yes indeed, “Man” is a curse upon the planet. All of “Mankind” should take their share of “arsenic” to rid the planet of this plague and scourge called “humanity.” Then the planet can thrive. Of course, there seems to be some evolution from animals to humans, that would demand a natural supply of something like arsenic be available to periodically rid the planet of the constantly evolving trend toward those pesky humans – about every milion years or so? Wait! Could it simply be that Ann wants the planet defined by her terms and saved for her personal enjoyment? The planet according to Ann might make a telling book for the rest of us? Maybe GOD could learn something from it?

  • http://aol.com michael dempsey

    I do not believe the constitution is a living document, similarly I think the same about the Bible. I think both documents were written for each of us to reach our own conclusions, tempered with the knowledge of the Authors, and their intent and beliefs. The simple understanding that man is free and has free will, and knows the difference of right and wrong in a Biblical sense. However, facing facts and doing what is right is not as easy, as changing the rules or meaning of words.

  • http://www.PatrioticChristiansToday.com Chris

    Lets look back at that first Thanksgiving and the faith it took for the pilgrims to cross the ocean to seek a better life. They were willing to face illness, their few belongings and literally their lives, to have freedom and a better life! What are we willing to risk? we are in a desperate situation in the country right now, and We can either bicker amongst ourselves, OR stand up for ourselves and our heritage and take responsibility for our future. I know what God loving and following people would do. If you are willing to commit to taking our country back and fighting for our future? If so, join others too, http://www.PatrioticChristiansToday.com get your wristband that identifies you as a follower of God and God’s country.

  • http://marcum@wildblue.net coal miner

    Happy Thanksgiving

  • ’53 Korean Vet

    In early days–No corporations, only “Joint-Ventures” existed! Shares of 10# each, were sold to anyone who invested! Pilgrims were required to own at least one 10# share, but business men in England who had no thought of going to America, bought as many shares as they wished-! This financing of Mayflower’s trip–is the facts of that day-! You still also needed the English King’s permission to come! This version of Pilgrims’ trip to America–needs to be understood-! My 3 ancestors aboard the Mayflower, gave me a keen interest on what happened-! Their
    ship’s only 60′ long, with 102 passengers & 30+ crew-members-(think of
    a 60′ home crammed with over 140 people)–isn’t much left for storage!
    Enough Water & Food for 140 for 2 months, bedding & what else-? Get your facts straight–space shortage is critical! Forget normal life-!
    The trip was miserable enough, but once they landed–Reality strikes again, No corner-grocery stores-! They’ve no choice, “decide where to build houses!” They also counted the stored food they shipped aboard!
    Do they have enough to last, until they can plant & havest next fall?
    They find they’re way short–so they used ‘common-sense’ & decide to go on 1/2 rations of food for tne next 2 yrs, when a 2nd ship comes-!
    True, there won’t be any ‘fat’ Pilgrims, but nobody starved either-!

    During this time, another disaster strikes–a vicious sickness hits them & 51 of the 102 Pilgrims died within a 4-mo period! Books didn’t have a name for this sickness–but I found they had stored a coop of
    chickens under the Poop-deck. So having read of the 1918 epidemic of
    Spanish-Flu(Bird-Flu of World War I)-they ran 50% deaths, as it did later-! This disease killed over 80 million people in 1918, & 4 yrs. of the “Black-Death” wasn’t but 20 million! My opinion asks approval!

    They gave the same amount of food to every man, woman & child daily, not weekly–because they were afraid some man would come in & say,
    “Boy, how hungry I am today”, and eat all of next week’s supply-! Not
    dumb–just practical-! Because of this type thinking, the rest of them
    made it-! I doubt that they discussed “Socialism”! But they did know that the division of land & animals would be shared with better times!
    The details on the Mayflower Contract, that’s missing–by Chip Wood,
    is the elder Pilgrims heard rumors of the non-pilgrims, going off on their own, to hunt for gold, & they knew this division might cause the
    Colony to not survive-! So they used the “Compact” to keep everyone together-! There were 16 adult married Women aboard, but only 4 of these survived until Summer-! Those 3 had to supervise children, had a hideous-washday without washing-machines, besides cooking! But I’ve always admired my mother & grandmothers, for teaching us about sharing
    the work around Home-! But I also believe Thanksgiving happened in the
    Fall of 1921, when that 1st harvest came in-! Cheers for the Pilgrims!

  • Eric Bischoff

    For an alternative but important history view point, as in one not usually taught in schools or on our History Channel, I recommend Howard Zinn”s “A Young People’s History of the United States: Columbus to the Spanish-American War”

    In the spirit of Thanksgiving one might ponder the following words Powhatan might have spoken to John Smith.

    “I know the difference between war and peace better than any man in my country. Why will you take by force what you may have quietly by love? Why will you destroy us who supply you with food? What can you get by war? Why are you jealous of us? We are unarmed, and willing to give you what you ask, if you come in a friendly manner, and not so simple as not to know that is is better to eat good meat, sleep comfortably, live quietly with my wives and children, laugh and be merry with the English, and trade for their copper hatchets, than to run away from them, and to lie cold in the woods, and feed on acorns, roots, and such trash, and to be so hunted that I can neither eat nor sleep.”

    “Who were these indians? Who were the people who came out onto the beaches with presents for Columbus and his crew and who peered out of the forests at the first settlers of Virginia and Massachusets?”

    “75 Million Indians lived throughout the Americas. before Columbus. They were nomads, hunter gatherers and expert farmers. Land belonged to the community, women shared power, people shared work. They had their own history, laws, and poetry. Was progress enough of a reason to decimate their population and wipe out their societies? The fate of the Indians reminds us to look at history as something more than just a story of conquerors and leaders.”

    • http://eddie47d@gmail.com eddie47d

      Thanks Eric and Korean War Vet. The early settlers suffered much and for that they deserve our admiration’s. They also took much from the land and hurt the original inhabitants. History is a messy business and our educational tools should reflect that. Not written to only reflect the “winning” side.

    • Vigilant

      Howard Zinn you say? And you STILL deny you are a communist? Listen up, from http://newzeal.blogspot.com/2010/07/howard-zinn-outed-as-communist-and-liar.html

      Cliff Kincaid of Accuracy in Media writes:

      The prominent “progressive” historian Howard Zinn, whose books are force-fed to young people on many college campuses, was not only a member of the Moscow-controlled and Soviet-funded Communist Party USA (CPUSA) but lied about it, according to an FBI file released on Friday.

      The file, consisting of three sections totaling 423 pages, was made available on the FBI’s website and released in response to a Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) request from this writer.

      Zinn taught in the political science department of Boston University for 24 years, from 1964 to 1988, and has been a major influence on the modern-day “progressive” movement that backed Barack Obama for president.

      Although Zinn denied being a member of the CPUSA, the FBI file discloses that several reliable informants in the party identified Zinn as a member who attended party meetings as many as five times a week.

      What’s more, one of the files reveals that a reliable informant provided a photograph of Zinn teaching a class on “Basic Marxism” at party headquarters in Brooklyn, New York, in 1951. A participant in the class said that Zinn taught that “the basic teaching of Marx and Lenin were sound and should be adhered to by those present…”

      Zinn was included on the “Security Index” and “Communist Index” maintained by the FBI. The “Security Index” was more ominous and included individuals who could be detained in the event of a national emergency.

      Frank Marshall Davis, the Communist Party USA member who mentored the young Barack Obama, was also the “security index”.
      Frank Marshall Davis, the Communist Party USA.

      Much more at that URL cited.

      • JeffH

        Vigilant, you just hit a grand slam against these pitchers of communism. Here is some more info that confirms your post.

        What’s Happened to Public School Curriculum?
        The most widely used history textbook in U.S. public schools is A People’s History of the United States by the late Howard Zinn. It has sold a million and a half copies since it was published in 1980. It is required reading in many high schools and colleges.

        This history textbook by Howard Zinn is a very leftwing version of U.S. history, full of multicultural, feminist, and class-war propaganda. It is based on the thesis that America is not a republic but an empire controlled by a few white men. Its heroes are anti-establishment protestors. The book debunks traditional heroes, such as Christopher Columbus and Andrew Jackson, and doesn’t mention great Americans such as Thomas Edison.

        Zinn’s textbook deprives young readers of the opportunity to learn that they are part of the great story of American exceptionalism. His book inspires guilt and the belief that success comes only through exploitation. He belittles patriotism, never allowing pride in America. Zinn told one interviewer that his goal in writing this textbook was to start a “quiet revolution” of people taking power from within the institutions.

        After several decades of use in schools and colleges, new information emerged about the author. In 2010, the FBI released 400 pages of files on Howard Zinn, and it turns out that he was an active member of the Communist Party. He was vice president of a group in Brooklyn, New York run by the Communists and attended Communist Party meetings in Brooklyn five nights a week. He was so important in the Communist Party that he taught a class to his comrades on “basic Marxism.”

        The FBI interviewed many fellow Communists who confirmed Howard Zinn’s longtime Communist Party membership. Publicly, Howard Zinn lied and denied his Communist Party membership, which was the common practice of Communist Party members in those years.

        Howard Zinn’s textbook is worse than anything he ever did as a member of the Communist Party. His textbook was specifically written to present a Marxist version of U.S. history based on the Communist strategy of the “class war.”

        Barack Obama’s goal of “redistribution of the wealth” (first announced to the public in his remark to Joe the Plumber, and then carried out by his extravagant spending programs) is the modern label for the basic Marxist ideology of the “class war.”
        http://www.eagleforum.org/psr/2010/nov10/psrnov10.html
        Parents and citizens should check their local school and find out if the kids are being taught U.S. history from Howard Zinn’s textbook.

        • Jana

          All of this just proves that Eric B. is a Communist. It also proves that his god Obama is a Communist leaning liberal too.

      • Vicki

        Thank you and JeffH both for the links to backup your points. Well done.

      • Vigilant

        OK, Eric, we’ve provided the facts you so often accuse us of not furnishing.

        Do you have any reply, other than some sweepingly general condemnation?

        We’re waiting.

        • JeffH

          Vigilant, take away the toys(illusion)and the children(progressives/liberals/Marxists/communists)will no longer play.
          You can see that is a constant with them.

  • Susan

    In the response made about the Indians, being part Indian I guess I get tired of people using my heritage as a political football. Trust me, you do not want to live in a tepee. Yes of course my great grand mother was an Indian prince,so I was told, but even she I supect apprecated in door plumbing. Please the only people who can say anything are those who have Indian blood. Liberals just use it as a way of crucifing others. No pun intended.

  • Kate8

    Here is a wonderful clip by Dr. Rima, talking about the mentality of those in control of our world.

    She also talks about how we can stop them.

    She is a true patriot, who risks her life to get information to us.

    http://www.healthfreedomusa.org/?p=7410

    A two-part video, short clips.

  • Bill 1776

    Why Democracies Fail
    A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover they can vote themselves largess out of the public treasury. From that moment on the majority always votes for the candidate promising the most benefits from the public treasure with the result that democracy always collapses over a loose fiscal policy, always to be followed by a dictatorship.

    (Written by Professor Alexander Frazer Tyler, approx. two centuries ago while the original states were still colonies of Great Britain. At the time he was writing of the decline and fall of the Athenian Republic over two thousand years before.)

    • Bob Wire

      another inconvenient truth.

      but they fail only in the sense , the wealthy gets wealthier and the poor become many and get poorer until the system is no longer sustainable.

      This requires many years of “not working” before it’s accepted that it failed to work. There is always a crowd gathered at the castle gate walls. Marie Antoinette loved and deserved her gowns, after all she was the Queen.

      Between the rise and fall, there is degrees of “working” for many. As “the many” slowly turn into “the few” there is no guilt or shame felt by the “deserving and privileged” as their power and influence only increases in the process.

      Which bring us to today! November 27,2010

      People like myself, see the present course as not being sustainable.

      For disparity is too great across the board !

      While others feel things are “okay” and disparity is a normal condition and each awarded to their own efforts and appitude. Things are as they should be.

      Try as I may, I can’t convince “anyone” that it’s not working, for who am I to know such things?

      I can’t do that. I can’t eat for you, think for you or pee for you. You must do such things for yourself. And without a “seen” strong reason,why should you?

      I’m just a trouble making malcontent you’ve heard a thousand times before.

      • Vicki

        The only thing I see not working is government. It is spending far more than it can take in. It is borrowing far more than it can pay. It is printing money then not even using that printed money to pay anyone. Redistributing wealth does not make the poor wealthy anymore than giving someone a fish makes them a fisherman.

        • Jana

          Vicki,
          Exactly, very good point.

        • JeffH

          Vicki, right on…simplicity!

    • Vicki

      Here is a nice video describing governments and discussing why democracies fail. It also near the end gives us a blueprint of how our Republic will fail if we don’t get it turned around soon.

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KFXuGIpsdE0

  • http://stevenartus2@gmail.com STEVEN ARTUS

    I REMEMBER READING SOMETHING ABOUT RAND PAUL WANTING TO REPEAL THE 14TH AMENDMAENT, AND IF I REMEMBER CORRECTLY THE ARGUEMENT HE BROUGHT UP WAS THIS. ACCORDING TO THE 14TH AMENDMENT, 18 YEAR OLDS COULD BE DRAFTED, ( THAT WAS DURING THE TIME OF THE DRAFT) AND COULD DRINK BEER TO THEIR HEARTS CONTENT, BUT COULD NOT VOTE. GOT THAT PART, “COULD NOT VOTE”

    WELL, TIMES HAVE CHANGED. THERE IS NO LONGER A DRAFT, THE DRINKING AGE HAS BEEN RAISED,AND NOW, THEY CAN VOTE, SO WHY THEREFORE, DO WE NEED THE 14TH AMENDMENT? SO, NOW THAT THEY CAN “ENLIST” AT AGE 17, THATS WHAT I DID SO MANY MOONS AGO, THEY CAN VOTE , BUT MUST WAIT UNTIL AGE 21 TO DRINK THE 14TH AMENDMENT IS NO LONGER NEEDED. COMMENTS?

  • Chuck Hobden

    The account I have about the Speedwell was that after the leaks were fixed, the ship had to turn back because it was taking on too much water over the deck. It was later suspected that the captain and crew did not want to sail to America, so they deliberately put up too much sail, which caused the water problem. On its next journey to somewhere else, it did just finel

  • http://truth1.org Scott I

    Communism? Well, let it be known that the merchants, who continually slighted the Pilgrims, were not willing to send them over alone. so the merchants sent another group as big as the Pilgrims along, making it far less likely that there would be harmony but it helped the merchants keep things in their favor.

    It failed, not because of working together without ambition but because they mixed greed in with the Pilgrims, thereby sabotaging their plans. Homogenized groups work far better than heterogenous ones do. Oil and water do not mix.

    • Vigilant

      “Homogenized groups work far better than heterogenous ones do. Oil and water do not mix.”

      There’s a rice paddy in North Korea waiting for you. That’s the most “homogenized” group in the world.

  • http://PersonalLibertyDigest Wiselady

    10-26=10

    The Pilgims experienced very similar fluctuations in developing a system of trades, bartering and collective exchange of goods because they had NO MONEY!.They were wise to agree on one thing…survival!
    There were no money printing presses when they landed; if there had been, their money would have been worthless but their trust in God gave them the faith and power to go till the soil, use brain and muscle to develop commodities or starve. They were the only things of real value. Using their God given talents and gifts to create a simple market, without over waste in goods; they established what we now take for granted. There was no monetary system allowing them to over tax and spend as we now allow to take place. Is this to say that we are long overdue to learn a moral lesson to stop being selfish fools? Bottom line for their survival: Supply and demand… the basic law of economics. Perhaps we must all become Pilgrims, start all over again and thank God for a second chance.

  • JeffH

    OF PLYMOUTH PLANTATION : THE JOURNAL OF WILLIAM BRADFORD
    http://www.pilgrimhall.org/bradjour.htm

    Can I suggest reading the information on this website for a better uderstanding of the history of the first 30 years of Plymouth Colony, handwritten by William Bradford. The Bradford journal is the single most complete authority for the story of the Pilgrims and the early years of the Colony they founded.

    • Bob Wire

      Neat Jeff! I wish they offered it as written as well a subdivided and classified.

  • Think Again

    The Real Real Thanksgiving Story:

    1. The pilgrims landed on plymouth rock and were starving
    2. The natives taught them to grow corn
    3. The pilgrims killed the natives and thanked god.

    • CREEK NATION

      Exactly! Plain, simple, point blank… all the aforementioned rhetoric is bull. I am an “Indian” and find it odd that so much nonsense persists about so called thanks for us giving and getting evil in return day.

      In the mindset of a European mentality the article is interesting in a sense of comparing communism vs living for, of, and by each other, as if doing so is so bad. We see things differently. We have to all agree to.disagree at times.

      • Jana

        Creek Nation,
        No matter what you “see” differently, truth is truth and history when reported not distorted is truth.

        • http://eddie47d@gmail.com eddie47d

          Then why Chip’s comparison to some leftist take over in 1620? That is going to the extreme in trying to re-write history.

          • Jana

            eddie,
            No it isn’t. What Chip told about was a portion of history. It was not the WHOLE of the history. When each person shares what they know in an investigation, then the whole story comes out. The same goes for here. Chip was sharing what they learned, which was they tried a method that we now know as Communism, and it did not work.

          • http://eddie47d@gmail.com eddie47d

            That is an opinion not a fact.

          • Jana

            eddie,
            Its only an opinion if you are not dealing in truth. Now you might be hitting the revisionists history books and buying into those lies, but I have chosen the truth.
            Around 1890 and the early 1900′s people started distorting little by little different stories of our history. After awhile people took it for the truth, instead of going back to the ORIGINAL. Then as these liars were successful in distorting our true history, they got bolder and bolder.

          • http://eddie47d@gmail.com eddie47d

            Jana; There is plenty of distorted history right here on this sight. If this is supposed to be a conservative site then it must be them who are the revisionists. (There is also alot of credible information written here). So don’t get yourself in a bunch.

          • Jana

            Yes, eddie, and I have heard your distortions already.

          • JeffH

            eddie says: “There is also alot of credible information written here”
            What eddie deems creditable are posts from “communist” revisionists like Robert.

          • http://eddie47d@gmail.com eddie47d

            Everyone you don’t agree with is a communist Jeff. It kind of looses it’s punch after awhile. Like you say Bla,Bla,Bla

          • JeffH

            eddie47d…first thing it’s “loses” and second thing is your continuous BAAA BAAA BAAA!

  • http://earthlink James Brown Ret Army,DAV

    The Pilgrims did what they had too. Survival demanded that they hunt for meat, and use the fur and bones and gut to make clothing and shoes. They, after having been good neighbors through the long winter, were in friendship, shown how to plant a staple crop of corn and how to store it.
    I bet they built out houses, and did not smoke Pot.They only cut trees for survival. The first winter about half of the pilgrims died.

  • Bob Wire

    it’s truly amazing what each of you can bring to forward after reading the thread post.

    I’ve not considered it long enough to offer comment, other then say, even at a small number of 60 some odd persons, there still was a need for an attorney to craft the wording of any agreed consensus.

    And I too think of the Constitution are a “living document” in the sense that it grows, changes and adapts to changing times and conditions.

    Many of you seem to want to take exception with the notion of a living document. Why? is not completely clear to me.

    There is no “absolutes” today or back then. Anything too rigid to bend will break with the passage of time.

    Mankind is a social animal, I believe many of you have not accepted that as a “FACT” and truly fail understand the implications of being a “social animal”. I’m left to believe you favor notions of the rugged individualist.

    The Grizzly Adams (mountain man)type was unique and few and far between and rarely spawn many off-springs or enjoyed a long prosperous life. Their benefits to society were many and valuable but in other ways.

    It take all of us, the strong, the timid and the weak to make a society. Not all of us have the skills to craft a document, much less understand it’s overriding “intent”.

    • Vigilant

      Bob,

      “And I too think of the Constitution are a “living document” in the sense that it grows, changes and adapts to changing times and conditions…Many of you seem to want to take exception with the notion of a living document. Why? is not completely clear to me.”

      There are two very different perceptions about what that term means. No one wants the Constitution to be deemed a “dead document” in the sense that it cannot be changed to redress the imperfections of the document itself. It is not written in stone, and no one was better aware of this than the Founders themselves. That is precisely the reason they included the mechanism of formal amendment to change it.

      But precisely HOW “it grows, changes and adapts to changing times and conditions” is where the whole controversy arises. Conservatives, or “strict constructionists,” believe that (1) the Constitution is the Law of the Land, and therefore commands absolute adherence to its provisions, and (2) ONLY through the legal provision of formal amendment can it ever be changed.

      The laws established by the legislative branch and enforced by the executive branch MUST be Constitutional, but when determined by the judicial branch to be unconstitutional, are null and void.

      The modern liberal interpretation of “living document” is quite something else. It presupposes a Constitution that allows legislators and judges to actually change that document without going through the (purposely constructed) lengthy process of amendment. Their view is that it is not necessary to consult the letter of the law as laid out there, but that it is acceptable to use modern day views of “social justice” to write law.

      The problems this causes have accelerated beyond belief. The SCOTUS, along with its various circuit courts, have themselves WRITTEN new law, which is directly counter to the Constitution. Kelo vs. New London, CT, is a prime example of this usurpation of power.

      The presidential executive order, and the dictates of various agencies such as EPA, ICC, and the “czars,” are other examples of the situation which exists now, i.e., cases where the Constitutional checks and balances have been blurred almost into indistinction. All this cavalier treatment of the Constitution has come about as the evil result of assuming it is a “living document.”

    • Vigilant

      Bob,

      Again, you said, “Mankind is a social animal, I believe many of you have not accepted that as a “FACT” and truly fail understand the implications of being a “social animal”. I’m left to believe you favor notions of the rugged individualist.”

      The main point, I think, is that the Constitution was written to guarantee that we were not forced into some social mold of behavior. When it formally recognized the soveriegnty of the indivdual, it meant we are free to choose whether we wish to be rugged individuals or “social animals.”

      It does not force conformity upon us, it does not force us to bend to social convention, and it is a document that celebrates and protects our differences. The Founders understood very well that “the common good” was not achieved through forced enlistment of the people to that end (as the liberals wish to do today), it was achieved through the maximization of individual freedom and choice.

      It was for that reason that our Constitution became, and is, the oldest written document of its kind in the history of the world. For a nation relatively young on the scene of world affairs, that’s saying a lot.

      • Bob Wire

        Sound debate Vigilant, I hope to get back to it later.

      • Vicki

        Well said Vigilant.

        Bob Wire writes:
        “There is no “absolutes” today or back then. Anything too rigid to bend will break with the passage of time. ”

        There are absolutes. One of them that I find most amusing is supply/demand. Watching people squirm and twist trying to make it do what they want is very entertaining.

        Another is Free Will. Our Constitution was written to protect our RIGHTS. One of those rights is the right to live our lives in peace. To be protected from those who would force their will upon us individually or collectivly. Capitalism is wholly grounded in free will. Socialism and Communism are not and that is why they will ultimately fail.

        Any form of government that supports and protects individual free will is by it’s very nature “good”.

        The writings of the founders make it abundantly clear that they fully understood this.

  • Henry Ledbetter

    Just witnessed a group setting for the last two years and while many tried to help them, they had the idea that all they needed to do was smoke and watch t.v. I have been told that they blamed others for their failure to pull together, pay their bills, clean, cook and provide for the common welfare of them all. It is my understanding they have ceased to exist as a group and I have heard the testimony of many that tried to help them of unreasonable demands they made on the community. There are some that don’t want to learn how to fish for themselves. Nimrod hunted the souls of men in similar r fashion but our Lord was not pleased with the effort and did them all a favor by confounding their language and caused them to scattter..

    • Jana

      Henry,
      You are so right. All of us could find excuses, but when we take responsibility for our own actions, pull ourselves up by our boot straps as my daddy has always said, and quit being poor me babies then we can accomplish just about anything.

  • Bob Wire

    “I also enjoyed seeing some liberal teachers get so upset with me they almost lost their lunches.”

    Chip are you suggesting that there are teachers that do not fit your definition as “Liberals” and if that be so , could you name a few so I understand your frame of reference.

    I wish to understand your context and not assume I might understand you, for I don’t.

    It is my understanding, a good teachers teach students “how to think” and not “what to think”.

    I’ve been exposed to many in my travels and came away with many things I now claim as mine. But “taught” political bias has never been one.

    If you feel I’m off track or wrong in believing this , please offer correction.

    “In its modern form, communism grew out of the socialist movement of 19th century Europe. ( so what kind of communism are you suggesting the Plymouth Colonies of 1620 employed?) As the Industrial Revolution advanced, socialist critics blamed capitalism for the misery of the proletariat — a new class of urban factory workers who labored under often-hazardous conditions. Foremost among these critics were the German philosopher Karl Marx and his associate Friedrich Engels.

    In 1848, Marx and Engels offered a new definition of communism and popularized the term in their famous pamphlet The Communist Manifesto.[37] Engels, who lived in Manchester, observed the organization of the Chartist movement (see History of British socialism), while Marx departed from his university comrades to meet the proletariat in France and Germany.”

    Early Communism; Communist thought has also been traced back to the work of 16th century English writer Thomas More. In his treatise Utopia (1516), More portrayed a society based on common ownership of property, whose rulers administered it through the application of reason.[citation needed] In the 17th century, communist thought arguably surfaced again in England. In 17th century England, a Puritan religious group known as the Diggers advocated the abolition of private ownership of land.[citation needed] Eduard Bernstein, in his 1895 Cromwell and Communism[38] argued that several groupings in the English Civil War, especially the Diggers espoused clear communistic, agrarian ideals, and that Oliver Cromwell’s attitude to these groups was at best ambivalent and often hostile.[39]

    Criticism of the idea of private property continued into the Age of Enlightenment of the 18th century, through such thinkers as Jean Jacques Rousseau in France.[citation needed] Later, following the upheaval of the French Revolution, communism emerged as a political doctrine.[40] François Noël Babeuf, in particular, espoused the goals of common ownership of land and total economic and political equality among citizens.

    I’m left with the opinion this early American Pioneers was more interested in chasing down some grub, keeping their lives and their women while trying to stay warm then political ideology.

    Let us take into account these were “NOT” a random count of 60 European constabulary but people that were “accelerated” by motives we might only ponder. It wasn’t a voyage on the “LOVE BOAT”, an all inclusive trip. There was work to do aboard ship and there was work to do on land fall.

    • Eric Bischoff

      They were courageous IMMIGRANTS willing to risk it all to escape oppression and for the promise of something better.

      • Jana

        Yes ERIC,
        They were COURAGEOUS. They wanted freedom from oppression. Praise God that these courageous people suffered such great hardships which ultimately resulted in a FREE United States. This is why we are so determined to keep it free.

    • Vigilant

      “Early Communism; Communist thought has also been traced back to the work of 16th century English writer Thomas More. In his treatise Utopia (1516), More portrayed a society based on common ownership of property, whose rulers administered it through the application of reason.[citation needed]”

      That’s what you get for using Wikipedia as a reference. Go to Plato’s “Republic,” written before Christ was born, for an early look at communism. Thomas More, as all Catholics in that day, were Platonists.

      • Bob Wire

        Hmm? I did look several other places ~ as far as I can tell ~ communism was not a “word” in great use or known by many in 1620 and surly didn’t conform to anything the early Pilgrims sought. That was the point I was attempting to bring forward.

        Aboard ship, they enjoyed a dictatorship (Maritime Law), once their feet was on solid ground, I truly doubt if it improved much, as this was truly an exploration and work party, far removed from the civilized world with life or death for everyone hanging in the balance.

        A parade of prairie schooners headed west was subject to the command of a wagon master. Would we consider that leadership communism as well?

        • Vicki

          Chips point about communism is that the METHOD used by the pilgrims now has a name. The name is communism. That a method exists before we name it is not new to science nor history.

          • http://eddie47d@gmail.com eddie47d

            You all love to invoke the word communism into everything to spread fears into everything that gets said. Whether it is true or not;now that is communism. You have all become “wise” propagandists and live in the world of Rules for Radicals.

          • Vicki

            Only one spreading fear is you Eddie47d. We merely observed that the Pilgrims tried a method of sharing the work (from each according to his abilities) and the product of that work (to each according to his need). And that method failed miserably. They then went to private ownership and individual work. Sharing thru choice (Charity). The resultant increase in productivity saved them.

            All Chip did was to give it the current label for brevity.

            You of course are welcome to ignore history. Just don’t expect us to follow you.

          • Jana

            eddie,
            There is no fear in knowing the TRUTH. But there is and always will be fear in being ignorant of what is going on around us. God does not want us to hide our head in the sand. I have done that, and I now know it doesn’t work. We allow the wrong people to get in control.

          • http://eddie47d@gmail.com eddie47d

            …and you can put you’re spin on history and glamorize the portions you like and find cute name for the parts you don’t approve of. This article did just that.

          • JeffH

            eddie, you comments just confirm that you are clueless.

          • http://eddie47d@gmail.com eddie47d

            Go back to your Gulag Jeff!

          • JeffH

            eddie47d…see you learned a new word…from your copy of the “Communist Manifesto” perhaps?

          • ’53 Korean Vet

            Vicky– I’m correcting Chip’s word of Communism to “Joint-Venture”, which is what financed the Mayflower’s Trip to America-! There was no
            such a term called, “Corporations” in those early days in England-!
            And of course, other people on this Blog–have already pointed out that Karl Marx had not written his book, where he defines “Communism!

        • Jana

          Bob,
          You can be so funny at times.
          Generally BEFORE such an undertaking as going to a whole new world, they already had a leader, one they trusted, or they would not have followed them into such a great unknown.
          They were not forced to come, they chose to come to this new world knowing that it would be a great hardship. They also chose to follow their respected leaders.
          Yes, Maritime law says the Captain of the ship is in charge. Another choice they made was to get on that ship and follow these Maritime laws. Again, they were not forced or coerced into getting on these ships.

          Again, a wagon master was hired to guide these wagons or prairie schooners safely to their destination.

          Your assertions are ridiculous at best!

          • Vicki

            Well stated Jana. Oh and when you read at least one of the links I posted below you can see the beginnings of the “victim mentality” in the authors description saying things like they didn’t have much choice.

            “The investors unquestionably had profit in mind when they insisted on common property. The Pilgrims went along because they had little choice.”

            From the link to the 1999 study.

            Now obviously the Pilgrims had full choice. Unlike some sailors of the time period they did not HAVE to go at gun/cutlass point. :)

  • Lyle Alzado

    I don’t know who this Robert guy is but he represents everything that is wrong in our country today. Hey Robert, get a job, get off well fare, start a business, hire people, pay taxes and get off the public tit. Your entitlement is not in my wallet!

    • Mr. P

      Isn’t this fun Lyle?

      Robert the commie keeps spouting off. I don’t think he is aware of the fact that he is in a rubber room
      where they have to supply him with a computer. If we could send him to Cuba, or one of those lovely African countries that still practice slavery her may have a new view on things. I doubt it though.

      • Lyle Alzado

        I agree with you Mr P. No doubt Robert was a middle manager somewhere. You know the type. They can’t do the job so the get in to middle management so they can manage those that can do the job. They soon screw everything up, place the blame on the workers, and somewhere along the way they begin to develop a superiority complex and expect those that produce to kiss their hairy, lazy fat ass.

  • Bob Wire

    Hmm? Robert what can I say, ~ You fight fire with fire it’s true, but there is no need for the gas can.

    Name calling, slurs, put downs, sweeping generalized statement, offering no support, no focus other then to bite, slash , stab , beat and bludgeon fails to win support. But in fact, it only polarizes and offers affirmation to many of their already twist beliefs.

    You are being very unreasonable, mean spirited and ornery. Showing yourself lacking in respect or humility.

    We have a few self proclaimed “conservatives” that use a similar approach about 4 actually. But you can make that 14 or 24 if you continue with these insults and attacks.

    Things are already crazy ~ you want to make it worse?

  • Vicki

    looking more into the story that Chip tells I found this
    http://www.hoover.org/publications/hoover-digest/article/6580
    which supports the assertions in the story.

  • Vicki

    And from 1952
    http://books.google.com/books?id=40UEAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA48&lpg=PA48&dq=what+saved+the+pilgrims+communism+or+capitalism&source=bl&ots=k7Ji4Hst2X&sig=EHXhKdWNuZGtWYdvH6C_p8KwHwE&hl=en&ei=PznyTL-RKJCosAPgwrW-Cw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3&ved=0CB4Q6AEwAjgK#v=onepage&q=what%20saved%20the%20pilgrims%20communism%20or%20capitalism&f=false

    So we see that there is a constant story from at least 1952-2010 where the stories all match. Stories from other sources where we suspect revisionism can be compared to this and chips story is dead on accurate with the matching stories.

    • http://eddie47d@gmail.com eddie47d

      Your clip also states that most of the 102 Pilgrims were opportunists who were out for themselves. That is kind of telling in why they failed (too many chiefs and not enough Indians).Few wanted to work together and wanted everything for themselves and that lead to so many deaths. Also mentioned that only 1/3 were religious and our history books never bring that up. I loved the original(school books) stories of the Mayflower landing and the Pilgrim’s religious value. Now I’m going to have to re-think these stories thanks to you and the distortions brought out.

  • Vicki

    And here last is an example of revisionism claiming that what was written is not what was written.
    http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2010/11/happy-thanksgiving-right-jabs-pilgrims-for-communism-video.php

    • Jana

      Vicki,
      Thank you for all of these great sites and information. You always give great sources and are full of wisdom and information.

    • JeffH

      Vicki, thanks for continuing to research and post all of these links supporting the content of Chips articulations about the Pilgrims plight with what is now called “communism”.

    • Vicki

      You’re welcome. There are many more out there.

      • http://eddie47d@gmail.com eddie47d

        You better hope not for your sake.

        • Vicki

          Why? Do I have something to fear from the truth?

          • http://eddie47d@gmail.com eddie47d

            If I could only get you to start telling the truth!!!

  • Bob Wire

    Thanks Vicky for your input. ~ Do any of you enjoy the weekly TV show “Survivor”? I’ve always enjoyed it myself.

    Having been a constant student of “Human Behavior” for half of my life, I get a lot of pleasure out of the program.

    I would hope these early “campers” had some system of control and command in place before they got off the boat.

    Rule by leaders with appointed committees being the most common non-military form of rule. To go farther and assign ownership we are getting into Common Wealth or Communism I suppose. ~ are we splitting hairs here? Are we assigning “labels” after the fact? and for what purpose?

    Purpose is very important ~ I look for purpose early as we see a Guard dog with no teeth is worthless, that make him only a watch dog, limited in what he can do. There is place for both, but they need not to be confused unless failure is your goal. Just another example of”labels” and the confusion that misapplication can cause.

    • Jana

      Bob,
      I am repeating what I said in response to your post above,

      Bob,
      You can be so funny at times.
      Generally BEFORE such an undertaking as going to a whole new world, they already had a leader, one they trusted, or they would not have followed them into such a great unknown.
      They were not forced to come, they chose to come to this new world knowing that it would be a great hardship. They also chose to follow their respected leaders.
      Yes, Maritime law says the Captain of the ship is in charge. Another choice they made was to get on that ship and follow these Maritime laws. Again, they were not forced or coerced into getting on these ships.
      Again, a wagon master was hired to guide these wagons or prairie schooners safely to their destination.
      The only time confusion is present is when you don’t know all of the facts, or you refuse to see the Truth.

      • Jana

        Or, you don’t have any morals or decent convictions.

    • Vicki

      Bob Wire writes:
      “I would hope these early “campers” had some system of control and command in place before they got off the boat. ”

      No need to hope. Not only is it in the past and therefor done it is also clear by reading the stories in the links I provided that they did have.

      Another thing about human nature noted in one of the links is that communal living DOES work for a small enough group. About family size. It also requires the relationships that (healthy) families have.

    • Vicki

      Btw there is some fair argument that the Pilgrims may NOT have fully organized before they landed. Though certainly they did have rules on the ship and rules with respect to their agreement with the investors.

      That argument is of course the Mayflower Compact.
      http://www.allabouthistory.org/mayflower-compact.htm

      • Jana

        Vicki,
        I would imagine they weren’t what you call organized, as they were facing an unknown. How can you organize for that? They improvised and tried various things, till they found out what wouldn’t work,and what would work the best. They found out that communism or socialism or whatever anyone wants to call what that they were doing at that time, did not work.
        Great sites to visit.

        • http://eddie47d@gmail.com eddie47d

          I have never heard communism used by any liberal to describe Thanksgiving Day in any form or fashion. So Chuck B you are the revisionist. After reading all the comments I believe Chip knocked down the hornets nest and created a swarm of mis-leading facts. I will always love Thanksgiving Day but I won’t look at it in the same way. His article did a dis-service and the facts are not kind to the old history books.

          • JeffH

            You’re nothing more than a blathering communist idiot.

          • http://eddie47d@gmail.com eddie47d

            Your mental Gulag is waiting for you Jeff so crawl back into the box!

  • chuckb

    the liberals are trying to insert their communist leanings into our national holiday of thanksgiving by revising our history. the pilgrims found out early that communal life didn’t work and it was abandoned to a more capitalistic system.
    in 1777 a day of thanksgiving *fasting and prayer)was proclaimed for the victory over the english general at saratoga.
    george washington proclaimed a day of thanksgiving and prayer to our lord as 1789
    lincolm proclaimed the fourth tuesday of november as a day of fasting and prayer.
    roosevelt first proclaimed the third thursday of november then under protest had to change it to the fourth thursday as it is today.
    some promoter started the turkey dinner somewhere along the way.

    thanksgiving day november 26. 1789 was proclaimed by george washington as a day of prayer and fasting.

  • Jeep

    Dear Bob Livingston,

    Thank you so much for the time I have spent on this site reading your wonderful articles. However, at this time, I believe I have had enough of reading comments from a handful of your other readers (or, perhaps they do not read, but just comment.) This particular article is a great story of the triumph of freedom over state-ism. However, several of your posters from the progressive side have truly taken the joy out of this reading experience. Although, dissenting opinions can have a positive effect, such as clarifying one’s own position, most of those presenting an opposite view here are somewhere off the map. There can be no discourse with such people. Like a ravening band of flea-bitten coyotes snapping outside the edges of the firelight, these progressive posters wait for any opening and latch on. They miss the point that the light is blazing right in front of them, but revel in the scraps they have managed to steal. It has been a pleasure, but I think I will lay off reading posts for a while as it is sad to see their pathetic whining and picking, instead of seeing an American triumph, these liberals see a defeat. How awful it must be to live in their world, a world without life, liberty or a pursuit of happiness. Instead they choose to live in a dark world of government run programs fueled by the scraps stolen from another table.

    • JeffH

      Jeep, sometimes it’s best to take a break from the constant assault of these progressive/communists. Those that blindly spew their rhetoric are the true communists.
      Hope you can “recover” and make a sterling comeback later on. Enjoy your holidays in peace.

    • Vicki

      Jeep. Just go down the left hand column and ignore the indented replies. You will stumble on a few liberal comments but they can quickly be skipped.

      • http://eddie47d@gmail.com eddie47d

        I figured you’d be one of those who put your blinders on and ignore the whole story. There are names for those kinds of people and you especially have tainted the Thanksgiving Holiday. Robert was certainly overzealous in his discriptions but your spin has certainly shook up this important holiday.

        • JeffH

          eddie47d, there is just no help for you. You are a bonefied idiot and yes you too think like a communist. Most probably a card carrying member at that. If America is so bad, why do you even live here? I’m pretty sure you don’t celebrate holidays like Thanksgiving because, to your miniscule mind, they are nothing more than a celebration of murder, theft, destruction and opression and we all know how you liberal commies don’t play that game. I’m quite sure you wouldn’t want to be a hypocrite!

          Your continuous support of Robert and “all” the other “communists” only strengthens my accusations and it is your ilk that try to put down and taint the holidays and anything else remotely good about America, with the exception of “redistribution of wealth” and “social justice”. It’s been almost 400 years since the Pilgrims arrived at Plymouth Rock and yet you and your commie friends can’t tear your blinders off long enough to realize that fact.

          • Jana

            JeffH,
            I am truly surprised. I honestly didn’t think that about eddie, but the more he talks, and the more he supports these people that have such blatant communistic views, I am having to change my opinion of him.I thought of him as someone I just didn’t agree with, but- – - wow.

          • JeffH

            Jana, I used to think he was mislead but based on his most recent comments over the last month or so I’m prtty sure he is both a communist supporter and stupid as well.

    • concerned grandma

      Perhaps “Robert” is one of the paid bloggers whose mission appears to be monitoring discourse and spewing liberal mantras. Remember ‘Ellie Light’? Evidently this is a more intelligent person who at least knows enough to change the name when posting additional comments.

    • barbm

      jeep, if you quit, they win!!

  • Anthony

    I have my own copy of the Mayflower Compact?

    Just thought I’d throw that out there…..

    I also have my own Common Sense, Federalist Papers and The Naked Capitalist.

    Nowadays, these books and many others like them, are intensely more interesting that anything you could ever watch on the alpha wave machine.

    • Jana

      Anthony,
      Good for you!!. That is wonderful. I am in the process of getting some great History books myself.

    • Eric Bischoff

      Me too Anthony, I love these books, especially Common Sense.

  • http://S03992628 alpha-lemming

    The power of the individual triumphs again. Of course communism failed!!

  • http://marcum@wildblue.net coal miner

    Not so fast.

    THANKSGIVING: A Day of Mourning
    By Roy Cook

    Most school children are taught that Native Americans helped the Pilgrims and were invited to the first Thanksgiving feast. Young children’s conceptions of Native Americans often develop out of media portrayals and classroom role playing of the events of the First Thanksgiving. The conception of Native Americans gained from such early exposure is both inaccurate and potentially damaging to others. Therefore, most children do not know the following facts, which explain why many American Indians today call Thanksgiving a “Day of Mourning”.

    Traditional hospitality and generosity have and continue to be constant Tribal virtues to be practiced at all times.
    One of a series of feasts reaching back into the group memory has been seized upon by the current modern society. The Wampanoag feast, called Nikkomosachmiawene, or Grand Sachem’s Council Feast. It was because of this feast in 1621 that the Wampanoags had amassed the food to help the Pilgrims thereby creating a new tradition European tradition known today as “Thanksgiving Day.” This Wampanog feast is marked by traditional food and games, telling of stories and legends, sacred ceremonies and councils on the affairs of the nation. Massasoit came with 90 Wampanog men and brought five deer, fish, all the food and Wampanog cooks.

    Before the Pilgrims arrived Plymouth had been the site of a Pawtuxet village which was wiped out by a plague (introduced by English explorers looking to grab a piece of the New World land) five years before the Pilgrims landed These Native peoples had met Europeans before the Pilgrims arrived. One such European was Captain Thomas Hunt, who started trading with the Native people in 1614. He captured 20 Pawtuxcts and seven Naugassets, selling them as slaves in Spain. Many other European expeditions also lured Native people onto ships and then imprisoned and enslaved them. These expeditions carried smallpox, typhus, measles and other European diseases to this continent. Native people had no immunity and some groups were totally wiped out while others were severely decimated. An estimated 72,000 to 90,000 people lived in southern New England before contact with Europeans. One hundred years later, their numbers were reduced by 80%. It was the English Captain Thomas Hunt’s expedition that brought the plague, which destroyed the Pawtnxet. . The nearest other people were the Wampanoag. In modern times they are often simply known as the Indians who met the Pilgrim invasion, their lands stretched from present day Narragansett Bay to Cape Cod. Like most other Tribal peoples in the area, the Wampanoag were farmers and hunters.

    Wampanoag is the collective name of the indigenous people of southeastern Massachusetts and eastern Rhode Island. The name has been variously translated as “Eastern People”, “People of the Dawn”, or more currently “People of the First Light”. (Note 1)

    The pilgrims (who did not even call themselves pilgrims) did not come here seeking religious freedom; they already had that in Holland. They came here as part of a commercial venture. One of the very first things they did when they arrived on Cape Cod — before they even made it to Plymouth — was to rob Wampanoag graves at Corn Hill and steal as much of the Indians’ winter provisions as they were able to carry. (Suppressed 1970 Speech of Wamsutta (Frank B.) James, Wampanoag.) To the native people who had observed these actions, it was a serious desecration and insult to their dead. The angry Wampanoags attacked with a small group, but were frightened off with gunfire. When the Pilgrims had settled in and were working in the fields, they saw a group of Native people approaching. Running away to get their guns, the Pilgrims left their tools behind and the Native people took them. Not long after, in February of 1621, Samoset, a leader of the Wabnaki peoples, walked into the village saying “Welcome,” in English. Samoset was from Maine, where he had met English fishing boats and according to some accounts was taken prisoner to England, finally managing to return to the Plymouth area, six months before the Pilgrims arrived. Samoset told the Pilgrims about all the Native nations in the area and about the Wampanoag people and their leader. Massasoit. He also told of the experience of the Pawtuxet and Nauset people with Europeans. Samoset spoke about a friend of his called Tisquantum (Squanto), who also spoke English. Samoset left, promising the Pilgrims he would arrange for a return of their tools.

    Samoset returned with 60 Native people including Massasoit and Tisquantum. Edward Winslow, a Pilgrim, went to present them with gifts and to make a speech saying that King James wished to make an alliance with Massasoit. (This was not true.) Massasoit signed a treaty, which was heavily slanted in favor of the Pilgrims. The treaty said that no Native person would harm a European settler or, should they do so, they would be surrendered to them for punishment. Wampanoags visiting the settlements were to go unarmed; the Wampanoags and the non-Indians agreed to help one another in case of attack; and Massasoit agreed to notify all the neighboring nations about the treaty.

    The key figure in the treaty talks and in later encounters was Tisquantum. He was Pawtuxet who had been kidnapped and taken to England in 1605. He managed to return to New England, only to be captured by Captain Hunt and sold into slavery in Spain. He escaped and returning to this continent, on board ship he met Samoset. Tisquantum found that all of his people died of the plague, so he stayed with the Wampanoags, some of whom had survived the disease. Tiquantum remained with the Pilgrims for the rest of his life and was in large part responsible for their survival. The Pilgrims were not farmers nor woodsmen. They were city people and mainly artisans. Tisquantum taught them when and how to plant and fertilize corn and other crops. He taught them where the best fish were and how to catch them in traps, and many other survival skills.
    Governor Bradford called Tisquantum “a special instrument sent of God” The Native nations along the eastern seaboard practiced tribal spirituality, hospitality, and generosity.

    Ironically, the first official “Day of Thanksgiving” was proclaimed in 1637 by Massachusetts Governor John Winthrop. He did so to celebrate the safe return of English colony men from Mystic, Connecticut. They massacred 600 Pequots that had laid down their weapons and accepted Christianity. They were rewarded with a vicious and cowardly slaughter by their new “brothers in Christ (Note 2)

    Massasoit, who had done so much to help the Pilgrims, had a son named Metacomet. As time went on and more Europeans arrived and took more land, Metacomet or Prince Phillip as he came to known and other tribal people began to take notice of self-serving ethics of the Pilgrims. After Metacoms father, Massasoit, died in 1662, Metacom was crowned King Phillip of the Pokanoket by the Europeans. King Phillip formed an alliance to remove the European settlers from their homeland. In 1675, after a series of arrogant actions by the colonists, King Phillip led his Indian confederacy into a war meant to save the tribes from extinction. Metacom adopted a policy of increasing but subtle resistance towards the English. Rumors began to fly among the English that “Philip” agreed to help the English enemies the French in 1667. A band of armed Native men were discovered by colonial rangers in 1671, which led to a demand that the guns be surrendered. After further angry confrontations, Metacom was forced to sign a new treaty which unacceptably demanded he fully subject his people to the English government. The old decayed dream of the peaceful coexistence between two equal and sovereign peoples had ended with the rejection of the Treaty of 1621. Although nothing happened for four more years, war broke out in June, 1675. The winter of 1675-76 proved a harsh one for the People, who resorted to raiding English farming communities for food and supplies. Many of the Christian Native People, especially those of Natick, Ponkapoag, and Mattakeeset were forced into internment camps on Deer Island in Boston Harbor and Clark’s Island in Plymouth Harbor, supposedly to prevent them from aiding and abetting the enemy. (Note 3)

    The eventual use of Native soldiers proved to be the turning point for the English. Their Native allies showed them effective methods for locating enemies, traveling lightly through the country, and fighting in guerrilla fashion. Small parties of Native and English rangers, supporting the larger English armies, wore down Metacom’s allies’ resistance and also caused many bands to turn to the English side. One of the most famous of the mixed Native and English ranger companies was led by Captain Benjamin Church of Plymouth Colony. Benjamin Church, who was an effective soldier, knew that area well. He had been successful in convincing the Saconett Indians and others to leave the ranks of Philip’s supporters and ally themselves to him. Aided by these Indian colleagues, Church began to hunt Philip down.

    Bravely changing tactics, Philip returned to Mount Hope, where he would meet his fate. In July 1676 Church captured Philip’s wife and son. Soon after, the despondent Philip shot one of his warriors. The man’s brother would lead Church to the sachem, and on 12 August 1676 Church and his forces attacked Philip’s encampment. Philip was shot and killed by an Indian named Alderman, and the corpse was drawn, quartered, and beheaded. Philip’s head was placed upon a pole at Plymouth, where it served as a grisly reminder of the war. (Note 4)

    The current Wampanoag have not forgotten. Their population consists of several groups, sometimes called “tribes”, who base their membership upon closely maintained kinship ties to the aboriginal communities. Supposedly there are approximately 4,000 Wampanoag, some living in the traditional homeland, some living where their jobs and lifestyles have taken them. The two best known groups are those of Mashpee on Cape Cod and those of Gay Head (Aquinnah) on Martha’s Vineyard, which is the only Wampanoag group recognized by the federal government. Other Wampanoag trace their ancestries from Herring Pond (Bourne), Fresh Pond (Plymouth), Watuppa or Troy (Fall River), Pokanoket (Bristol and Warren, R.I.), Chappaquiddick Island, Christiantown or Takemmy (West Tisbury) and other places.

    Text of Plaque on Cole’s Hill
    “Since 1970, Native Americans have gathered at noon on Cole’s Hill in Plymouth to commemorate a National Day of Mourning on the US Thanksgiving holiday. Many Native Americans do not celebrate the arrival of the Pilgrims and other European settlers. To them, Thanksgiving Day is a reminder of the genocide of millions of their people, the theft of their lands, and the relentless assault on their culture. Participants in a National Day of Mourning honor Native ancestors and the struggles of Native peoples to survive today. It is a day of remembrance and spiritual connection as well as a protest of the racism and oppression which Native Americans continue to experience.”

    ——————————————————————————–

    Notes and Bibliography:

    Note 1.
    In this same time frame of English exploration, but much better known, is Capt. John Smith. He is the one who participated in the Powahatten area’s bounty. Although he would have much preferred to find gold. Capt. John Smith, has been immortalized for his part in founding Virginia. In 1614 Smith explored part of the North American coast-to which he gave the name New England. Disappointed in his search for gold, he set his men to fishing for cod while he went exploring in the ship’s pinnacle, mapping the coastline from Maine to the cape that was named for the fish.

    Smith’s map and description of New England and his profits from cod fishing encouraged the Pilgrims to seek a charter from the Crown (The English Crown had no authority to grant legally.) to settle there. Indeed it was the cod that saved the first New Englanders. In 1640, only eleven years after Massachusetts Bay Company had been by the Puritans, it exported three hundred thousand cod to Europe. Cod was soon also being traded to the West Indies, in exchange for rum and molasses. In addition, plowing in the cod waste greatly increased the agricultural productivity of the stony New England soil. The cod proved a basis of prosperity for New England so considerable that Adam Smith singled it out for praise in his Wealth of Nations. To this day, a wooden sculpture of a cod adorns the Massachusetts Statehouse to remind the legislators of the source of their state’s greatness.

    Note 2.
    William Bradford, in his History of the Plymouth Plantation, described the carnage: “Those that scaped the fire were slaine with the sword; some hewed to peeces, others rune throw with their rapiers, so as they were quickly dispatche, and very few escaped. It was conceived they thus destroyed about 400 at this time. It was a fearful sight to see them thus frying in the fyer, and the streams of blood quenching the same, and horrible was the stincke and sente there of, but the victory seemed a sweet sacrifice, and they gave the prayers thereof to God, who had wrought so wonderfully for them, thus to inclose their enemise in their hands, and gave them so speedy a victory over so proud and insulting an enimie.” This is what Cotton Mather said, “It was supposed that no less than 600 souls were brought down to Hell that day”. At the same time he gives us an insight into the society and character of the Puritans. “…yet all this could not suppress the breaking out of sundry notorious sins.. Especially drunkenness and uncleanness. Not only incontinency between persons unmarried, for which many both men and women have been punished sharply enough, but some married persons also. But that which is worse, even sodomy and buggery (things fearful to name) have broke forth in this land oftener than once. I say it may justly be marveled at and cause us to fear and tremble at the considration of our corrupt natures, which are so hardly bridled, subdued and mortified…..But one reason may be that the Devil may carry a greater spite against the churches of Christ and the gospel here.”

    Note 3.
    In January, 1675 the body of a Christian Native named John Sassamon was found in the frozen pond at Assawompset (Middleboro). An alleged witness identified three Wampanoag men as the murderers of Sassamon. The three were arrested and tried by the General Court at Plymouth because the crime took place under English jurisdiction and the victim, being Christian, was considered an English subject. Rumor circulated that Metacom had commissioned the execution of Sassamon for revealing his plans.

    In June, a colonist shot and mortally wounded a Pokanoket who had been seen running out of his house. A revenge raid followed in which several English were killed began the war. Plymouth, Massachusetts Bay and the Connecticut Colonies mustered their allied forces, and moved against Metacom. However, inept leadership allowed the Pokanoket to get away and raid many colonial towns. The Pokanoket, joined somewhat reluctantly by their Pocasset and Sakonnet relatives, retreated into the interior of Massachusetts where they were joined by some of the Nipmuck and others.

    The war spread to the Connecticut valley and the Pokanoket went as far as the Hudson River to recruit allies amongst the Mahican, Abenaki, and others. The colonies, insisting that the Narragansett were acting in bad faith by harboring fugitives, prepared an army of 1,000 men to attack that neutral nation. In December 1675 the colonials attacked the unsuspecting Narragansett, burned their fort, and killed many of the inhabitants, thus driving the Narragansetts into the war on the side of Metacom.

    Note 4.
    King Philip’s War slowly came to an end after the sachem’s death. Some Indians were executed for their part in the fighting. Others, including Philip’s son, were sold into slavery abroad, even to Africa. The Wampanoag tribe was destroyed. Even Christian Indians who had backed the colonists suffered. Many colonists, angered by the heavy death toll of King Philip’s War, grew to hate all Indians, irrespective of their religion.

    Much confusion has arisen over what name to use for Philip and the war. The sachem’s earlier name, Metacom, is preferred by some authors, but the sachem himself abandoned it. Indians commonly renamed themselves, and in 1674 he was calling himself Wewasowannett. Furthermore, the colonists were not ridiculing Philip when they referred to him by a European royal title. John Josselyn, who was sympathetic to the Indians, called the sachem “Prince Phillip” in his An Account of Two Voyages to New-England (1674). In addition, the term “King Philip’s War” acknowledges Philip’s great importance in the history of colonial New England. Therefore both King Philip and King Philip’s War are acceptable usages.

    Metacom Education Project, Inc. P.O. Box 890082 East Weymouth, MA 02189,

    Philip was illiterate, so there are only a few letters. See Massachusetts Historical Society, Collections, 1st ser., 2 (1793): 40, and 6 (1799): 94. Another letter is in Great Britain, Public Record Office, Calendar of State Papers, Colonial Series, America and the West Indies (1880), vol. for 1661-1668, p. 380.
    The Records of the Colony of New Plymouth are essential. All contemporary accounts must be used cautiously, but see Benjamin Church, Entertaining Passages Relating to Philip’s War (1716); Increase Mather, A Brief History of the Warr with the Indians in New-England (1676); and William Hubbard, A Narrative of the Troubles with the Identity. New York: Alfred A. Knopf, 1998. Indians in New-England (1677). John Easton’s narrative is in Charles H. Lincoln, ed., Narratives of the Indian Wars, 1675-1699 (1913). The only modern scholarly biography is in Philip Ranlet, Enemies of the Bay Colony (1995).
    His ancestry is given in Betty Groff Schroeder, “The True Lineage of King Philip (Sachem Metacom),” New England Historical and Genealogical Register, 144 (1990): 211-14. Alden T. Vaughan, New England Frontier, 3rd ed. (1995), is the best work for the years before the war. Douglas E. Leach, Flintlock and Tomahawk (1958), is the most thorough military history of the war itself. Francis Jennings, The Invasion of America (1975), criticized Vaughan and Leach for being too favorable to the colonists.
    Jennings, in turn, has been criticized by Philip Ranlet, “Another Look at the Causes of King Philip’s War,” New England Quarterly, 61 (1988): 79-100, and others for being too favorable to the Indians. Jill Lepore. The Name of War: King Philip’s War and the Origins of American Thansgiving.

    • Jana

      Hmmmm,
      Very interesting story.

      According to Wikipedia,

      The National Day of Mourning is an annual protest organized since 1970 by American Indians of New England on the fourth Thursday of November, the same day as Thanksgiving in the United States of America. It coincides with an unrelated but similar protest, Unthanksgiving Day, held on the West Coast.

      The organizers consider the national holiday of Thanksgiving Day as a reminder of the perceived democide and continued suffering of the Native American peoples. Participants in the National Day of Mourning honor Native ancestors and the struggles of Native peoples to survive today. They want to educate Americans about history. The event was organized in a period of Native American activism and general cultural protests. The protest is organized by the United American Indians of New England (UAINE). Since it was first organized, social changes have resulted in major revisions to the portrayal of United States history, the government’s and settlers relations with Native American peoples, and renewed appreciation for Native American culture.

      I went to the site of the United American Indians of New England and find they are in cahoots with Mumia Abu-Jamal.

      It is sure odd how we can find all of these left wing disgruntled sites that twist and distort.

      • JeffH

        Jana, I’m not surprised by your finding nor am I surprised to see that the SocialistWorker.org is a huge supporter.

  • blinwilly

    i have a question sir. could these young mens complaint that gov. bradford discusses be complaining about gov. bradford and the other political and religious leaders in the community. many are the politicians and religious leaders who seem to feel that they are above work and will let their subjects support them. i didn’t see it specified exactly who they were talking about. it seems that you have filled in your own blanks to suit your story.

    • Jana

      blinwilly,
      I agree with you, as it does seem these leaders feel they are above work, and want all of us to support them.

      • blinwilly

        who would be the “us and them” in this story?

        • Jana

          blinwilly,
          The Us are the supporters. The They are those too lazy to get out and work, and the leaders who want to take everything the Us works for, and give to the lazy.
          Hmmm which one are you?

    • http://eddie47d@gmail.com eddie47d

      There are many sides to history as you’re article points out Coal Miner. I wish you had inserted this at the beginning of Chips column. Few will read it or learn from it at this “late” date.

      • JeffH

        eddie47d, just a question? Did you celebrate a traditional Thankgiving and give thanks for your table of bounty with family and friends?

        What coal miner posted wouldn’t have changed the thread of comments at all!

        • http://eddie47d@gmail.com eddie47d

          Had a wonderful Thanksgiving Jeff. It is one of the few holidays where everyone can come together as one.Irregardless of color or wealth and many other reasons, Or so I thought! Sounds like it has become a right vs. left issue according to Chip and Vickie. You’re clip on the Indians was probably correct but those Indian treaties didn’t work out so well back then. Not all Indian Nations survived and few have much status today. That is a dark part of American history. The true story of capitalism is that it grew out of the the exploitation of others. (Indians,Blacks,dangerous industrial jobs and cheap labor,etc) Chip should write about true American History instead of his sanitized version. Today much of the past is forgotten and that is probably deliberate.( So we don’t dwell on the uglies.) Come to think of it,even today it is about cheap labor.My,My!” The more things change the more they remain the same”

          • Jana

            eddie,
            There has always been a dark side to history. As long as there are evil people in the world there will always be a dark side.

          • JeffH

            eddie47d: “You’re clip on the Indians was probably correct but those Indian treaties didn’t work out so well back then. Not all Indian Nations survived and few have much status today. That is a dark part of American history”.

            Think about what you just said!
            With the “governments” role of supporting the Indian nations, the Indians themselves became dependent on the government dole thus removing them from there own self responsibilities and self respect. The horror stories of “drunken” Indians became the norm. I never saw that part or even know that was true but I can’t dwell on the mistakes of the past. Society moved forward That is what we learn from history. I’ve had the good fortune to know a few native Americans and have looked upon them as something special, as a piece of Americam history and as people with great pride and a strong heritage.

            As for Indians having “status”? If they belong to a tribe and function as human beings, what more “status” can they need? As a participating member of Indian society within their tribes or as a participating member of society outside the tribe, that is all the status anyone needs. As a functioning member of society.

    • Vicki

      Amusingly it does not matter if they young men were complaining about other workers or politicians. The effect is unchanged. Communism fails EVERY time it is tried in large groups because of the nature of humans. Doesn’t matter if it is the elites of an oligarchy or the recipients of welfare the result is the same. The only successful communes are those based and sized on traditional family units. Bet the left hates that. :)

      I offer as proof the entire history of man.

      • blinwilly

        not amusingly printing of an assumption is not fact. even your assunmption of what the left likes or doesn’t like. considering democracy has only existed in this country for a little over 200 years it’s still a little early to proclaim it the end all be all system of government and will last forever. show me any political or religious system that has not died out over time. and your correct that it is human nature that will tear down itself.

        • JeffH

          blinwilly…there are enough links posted that you too can access to confirm Vicki’s comments. Do some serious reading and then ask the questions again rather than making such bold assumptions yourself.
          I’ll even provide a reputable source.

          OF PLYMOUTH PLANTATION : THE JOURNAL OF WILLIAM BRADFORD
          http://www.pilgrimhall.org/bradjour.htm

          • blinwilly

            what assumptions did i print that offended you. and i imagine i’m at least as well read as yourself. i followed the links provided by vicki, and i’m sure you know that links can be provided that say calling the pilgrims a communist society is not a fair assumption. so just posting the ones you agree with only points out one view. take a little time to look at opposing views and expand your narrow view of the world.

          • JeffH

            blinwilly or whoever you used to be…take a hike and quit with the worn out Alinsky moves. They don’t work anymore…go fishin’ in another pond.

          • Jana

            blinwilly,
            I certainly misread what you said above when I agreed with you. MY BAD.
            You are a very mixed up person, and for someone who is so well read you do not converse very well.

          • Vicki

            blinwilly says:
            “So just posting the ones you agree with only points out one view. take a little time to look at opposing views and expand your narrow view of the world.”

            Post your links. Otherwise absent links to prove otherwise we find that the view presented by Chip is the correct one based on his information and the links provided by Vicki (me :) )

  • James

    The Pilgrims banded together but I wouldn’t call it communism. They did that to survive, but even so, many didn’t make it.

    • Vicki

      If you had read the links provided and the story by the OP you would know that they formed a communist style organization (a commmonwealth) BEFORE they left England. It was in their contract with the investors. They abandoned it and switched to capitalism TO SURVIVE

      • blinwilly

        i’m sure the commomwealth’s of pennsylvania, kentucky, virginia, and massachusetts, would disagree with your comparing commonwealth’s to communism.

      • http://eddie47d@gmail.com eddie47d

        They didn’t switch to capitalism and they deffinetely weren’t communists. You are rewriting history, so get off the moonshine. I suppose the half that survived were good pilgrims and the ones that died were bad ones. It could be just the opposite.

        • Jana

          eddie,
          Now you and blindwilly are getting ridiculous.

          • http://eddie47d@gmail.com eddie47d

            So is Chip.

        • Vicki

          eddie47d says:
          “They didn’t switch to capitalism and they deffinetely weren’t communists. You are rewriting history, so get off the moonshine. I suppose the half that survived were good pilgrims and the ones that died were bad ones. It could be just the opposite.”

          You have seen the links. You provide no support for your claims. Your assertions are rejected.

      • ’53 Korean Vet

        Vicky– What you have called a common-wealth, wasn’t what the Early Pilgrims called it-! It’s called a “Joint-Venture” in early England!
        There was no Corporations in those days, but it was required that each
        Pilgrim was required to buy at least 1 or 2 10-english pound shares, for their Trip-Venture, but English Businessmen, who weren’t taking the trip to America–could purchase as many shares as they might be interested to invest in-! I had 3 Ancestors aboard the Mayflower-!

      • James

        Vicki, In a commonwealth, the supreme authority is vested in the people. In a Communist State, the authority is usually vested in a single leader. The only difference between a kingdom and Communism is whether the leader is good or evil, from a Christian point of view. The early commonwealths here, were renouncing their allegiance to the British Crown.

  • JeffH

    American Indians & The United States Constitution

    When the thirteen American colonies decided to rebel against England and seek their independence, they formed the Continental Congress to manage their national affairs. This Congress operated from 1774-1781 and dealt with Indian tribes on a diplomatic, political basis and signed one treaty with the Delaware Tribe in 1778. The political interest of the United States at that time was to keep the tribes happy with the new American government and to keep Indian tribes from fighting for the English in the American Revolutionary War during 1775-1781. This Congress engaged in diplomatic relations with tribes by sending representatives to the tribes bearing many gifts and promises of peace and friendship to keep the tribes neutral in the United States’ war with England.

    In Article I, the United States Constitution accomplishes the goal of excluding states and individuals from Indian affairs by stating that only Congress has the power “To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes . . . .” The United States Supreme Court has interpreted this language to mean that the Congress was granted the exclusive right and power to regulate trade and affairs with the Indian tribes. The very first United States Congress formed under our new Constitution, in 1789-1791, immediately assumed this power and in the first five weeks of its existence it enacted four statutes concerning Indian affairs. In 1789, the new Congress, for example, established a Department of War with responsibility over Indian affairs, set aside money to negotiate Indian treaties, and appointed federal commissioners to negotiate treaties with tribes. In July 1790, this Congress passed a law which forbids states and individuals from dealing with tribes and from buying Indian lands. This law is still in effect today.

    Indian tribes are also referred to, but are not expressly designated, in Article VI of the Constitution where it is made clear that all treaties entered by the United States “shall be the supreme Law of the Land.” Consequently, this treaty provision of the U.S. Constitution states that the federal government’s treaties with Indian tribes are the supreme law of the United States.

    Individual Indians are also mentioned in the Constitution of 1789, Article I, and again in the Fourteenth Amendment to the Constitution which was ratified in 1868. In counting the population of the states to determine how many representatives a state can have in Congress, Indians were expressly not to be counted unless they paid taxes. This demonstrates that Congress still considered Indians to be citizens of other sovereign governments even in 1868 when the Fourteenth Amendment was adopted. This view was correct because most Indians did not become United States citizens until 1924 when Congress passed a law making all Indians United States citizens.

    American Indian tribes have played a major role in the development and history of the United States and have engaged in official, diplomatic governmental relations with other sovereign governments from the first moment Europeans stepped foot on this continent.
    http://www.flashpointmag.com/amindus.htm

  • Ben

    I have seen people like Robert whose actions in all cases are to redirect, obfuscate and otherwise make any meeting or discussions moot. In a typical liberal way, he cannot type a single sentence without name calling.
    Please filter his comments out for they do not contribute positively to the subject at hand.
    I enjoyed your article very much; keep it up.

    • Eric Bischoff

      Yes we support free speech dammit shut this guy out we don’t like what he says!

  • blinwilly

    jeffh, so you don’t have a clue and can’t think of a lie so you call names. i stumbled on this site from another fearmonger site that was scaring one of my friends into believing the government is coming after her. you don’t have to worry about me fishing in your pond, just because he’s added post revolution/apocolypse supplies, overpriced gold and fear to his usual potions and pills, doesn’t mean i can’t spot a snake oil salesman that fancies himself a poor mans glenn beck. so wallow in your fear and hatred of others without fear that i would call you on it. ta ta

    • JeffH

      blinwilly or is it “blindwilly”? I’m in full control of my faculties and can’t and don’t waste my time worrying about communism and people like yourself…or whomever you choose to pose as. Poor mans Glenn Beck? Cute! I’ve heard the “fear” word, “mongering” word and the “hate” word so much from you communists that it goes in one ear and out the other without any processing. You disappoint me, I was actually waiting for the “racist” accusations. You must be slipping! Your talk is as cheap as a $2 suit. You talk the same rhetoric that all the other Marxist/progressive/liberal/communists speak and it is all the same no matter where it’s spoken…SORRY! I’m just not buyin’ into it. I much prefer a “Constitutional Republic” over a Red State.

      C’mon man, leave the darkside and join us, the red, white and blue. We’re all about personal responsibility and personal freedom without the “nanny” state…the belief in life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Sorry to disappoint, communism just can’t offer what I need.

      • Jana

        JeffH,
        I think blinwilly, aka blind willy is a woman. Just the way she writes you can tell.

        • JeffH

          Jana, certainly has a familiar “tone” to it. Either way, it’s nothing we don’t hear every day and we’ll keep hearing it as long as there are “commuists” amongst us.

          • Jana

            JeffH,
            Amen to that!

          • http://marcum@wildblue.net coal miner

            Jeffh,

            Advocacy of a classless society in which private ownership has been abolished and the means of production and subsistence belong to the community.There are also different forms of communism,the early Christians are one example. Communism is Christian in orgin.Every thing is held in common. look it up.There is no such thing as modern communism,that is a final stage of imperfect socialism which doesn’t exist,yet.Marx never did advocate government,as matter of fact he hated all governments,both left and right.He was one of the first libertarians.

          • Jana

            You are right in that Communism did start out to be a good thing.
            There were a lot of things that were Christian in the beginning, but just like Satan perverts anything to do with Christianity, Communism got perverted just like Liberalism got perverted.

      • http://marcum@wildblue.net coal miner

        JeffH,
        Control of your Faculties? Oh my God.
        I don’t know about that.You and Jana must be brother and sister.Lets pray for them. A mind is a terrible thing to waste.Ha ha ha

        • JeffH

          Oh coal dunger, as if you have any room to talk…speaking of faculties…now back to your desolate cave where your laugh can resonate clearly!

          • http://eddie47d@gmail.com eddie47d

            Now you really have Jeff spooked with your comparing communism and Christianity together. That will really rattle his brain and that Marx hated government will send him over the edge. I can’t wait for his answer.

          • JeffH

            …my answer? LMAO!

          • Jana

            eddie,
            Perversion and distortions are what Satan is good at, and he distorts and perverts anything to do with God. Just like he used some stupid and ignorant and bad people to distort Liberalism so now its turned into Socialism and Communism that is now against God or anything He stands for.
            Actually in you and coal trying to be so witty and putting down Christianity reminds me of Romans 1:22 Professing themselves to be wise they became fools.

            I know we haven’t agreed on our philosophy, but I never thought you a fool.

  • Eric Bischoff

    The real Thanksgiving Story

    Republicans filibustered 16 different proposed tax cuts in the last couple of years. The only one they want is the one for the rich. They want to extend the expiring Bush tax cuts.

    Meanwhile 2 million people just lost their unemployment benefits today just in time for xmas. But hey screw them we don’t want to be a socialism like system that helps people in trouble. We ‘re too busy helping corporate america giving them zero interest loans even if they don’t need it.

    I am sure that you’ll hear different versions of this and many attacks on it but in the end the guy who did something for us is the most progressive guy in the US government today. BERNIE SANDERS. The guy who forced Bernanke to reveal where the Bush bailout money went. And then they discovered that there was a lot more, a hell of a lot more, Trillions more. Did you see the list even McDonalds got money. Did you get any money?

    “After years of stonewalling by the Fed, the American people are finally learning the incredible and jaw-dropping details of the Fed’s multi-trillion-dollar bailout of Wall Street and corporate America. As a result of this disclosure, other members of Congress and I will be taking a very extensive look at all aspects of how the Federal Reserve functions and how we can make our financial institutions more responsive to the needs of ordinary Americans and small businesses.

    What have we learned from today’s disclosure? And, this is based on a 4 hour examination of over 21,000 transactions. We have learned that the $700 billion Wall Street bailout signed into law under George W. Bush turned out to be pocket change compared to the trillions and trillions of dollars in near zero interest loans and other financial arrangements the Federal Reserve doled out to every major financial institution in this country. Among those are Goldman Sachs which received nearly $600 billion; Morgan Stanley which received nearly $2 trillion; Citigroup which received $1.8 trillion; Bear Stearns which received nearly a trillion; and Merrill Lynch received some $1.5 trillion in short term loans from the Fed.

    We have also learned that the Fed’s multi-trillion bailout was not limited to Wall Street and big banks, but that some of the largest corporations in this country also received a very substantial bailout. Among those are General Electric, McDonald’s, Caterpillar, Harley Davidson, Toyota, and Verizon also received a bailout from the Fed.

    Perhaps most surprising is the huge sum that went to bail out foreign private banks and corporations including two European megabanks — Deutsche Bank and Credit Suisse – who were the largest beneficiaries of the Fed’s purchase of mortgage-backed securities.

    Deutsche Bank, a German lender, sold the Fed more than $290 billion worth of mortgage securities and Credit Suisse, a Swiss bank, sold the Fed more than $287 billion in mortgage bonds. Has the Federal Reserve of the United States become the central bank of the world?

    The Fed said that this bailout was necessary to prevent the world economy from going over a cliff. But, three years after the start of the recession, millions of Americans remain unemployed and have lost their homes, life savings and ability to send their kids to college. Meanwhile, big banks and corporations have returned to making huge profits and paying their executives record-breaking compensation packages as if the financial crisis they started never happened.

    What this disclosure tells us, among many other things, is that despite this huge taxpayer bailout, the Fed did not make the appropriate demands on these institutions necessary to rebuild our economy and protect the needs of ordinary Americans.
    For example, at a time when big banks have nearly a trillion dollars in excess reserves parked at the Fed, the Fed did not require these institutions to increase lending to small and medium sized businesses as a condition of the bailout.

    At a time when large corporations are more profitable than ever, the Fed did not demand that corporations that received this backdoor bailout create jobs and expand the economy once they returned to profitability. I intend to investigate whether these secret Fed loans, in some cases, turned out to be direct corporate welfare to big banks that used these loans not to reinvest in the economy but rather to lend back to the federal government at a higher rate of interest by purchasing Treasury Securities.

    The Federal Reserve claimed that these loans were needed so that big banks could start lending to small and medium sized businesses that desperately needed money to create jobs and to prevent layoffs. But, instead of using this money to reinvest in the productive economy, I suspect a large portion of these near zero interest loans were used to buy Treasury Securities at a higher interest rate providing free money to some of the largest financial institutions in this country. That is something that we have got to closely examine.

    At a time when Wall Street executives are now making more money than before the financial crisis, how many big banks that paid back TARP funds in 2009 to avoid limits on executive compensation received no-strings attached loans from the Federal Reserve?
    At a time when millions of Americans are paying outrageously high credit card interest rates, why didn’t the Fed require credit card issuers to lower interest rates as a condition of the bailout?

    The four largest banks in this country (Bank of America, JP Morgan Chase, Wells Fargo, and Citigroup) issue half of all mortgages in this country. We now know that these banks received hundreds of billions from the Fed. How many Americans could have remained in their homes, if the Fed required these bailed-out banks to reduce mortgage payments as a condition of receiving these secret loans?

    But hey that’s why there’s no money for you fools. That’s why we can’t extend unemployment, that’s why we want to cut social security, ask you to work longer and that is why we want to cut education and arts funding.

    We only have money to bail out corporations and fight wars to make the military industrial complex wealthier.

  • Eric Bischoff

    So corporate america and the rich got Bush bailout money, they also got trillions of zero interest loans, they got Bush tax cuts for the last 10 years.

    WHERE ARE THE JOBS ASS HOLES?

    WHERE ARE THE JOBS?

    ARE THEY COMING ANYTIME SOON?

    OH I forgot you need more tax cuts and then maybe we’ll get jobs!!!!!

    Do you still feel thankful?

  • LyingDog

    I had a relative in that bunch named Doty or Doughty or so I have been told. I know that a relative named Arnold was soon after in New York. Anyway, the same rotten bastards are still stealin my stuff. In the last five years, I have lost near 400K to theft. Evidently, the communists did not all die. I might be a descendant of one of them if Ole Great, great, great,gr…., Grandma cheated around. Who cares. When is the shootin war gonna start?

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