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The Obama Car: Unaffordable, Unreliable And Ultimately Dirty

January 9, 2013 by  

The Obama Car: Unaffordable, Unreliable And Ultimately Dirty

Four more years with Barack Obama as our President, and we are likely to see many green schemes whose time has not come. Who can doubt that the idiocy of the electric car is just coming into fruition? It will mark only more than a century of engineering on a project that shows little spark and even less hope.

Never fear, electric lovers; Obama has chipped in $5 billion in taxpayer money behind his goal of having 1 million electric cars on U.S. roads by 2015.

Never mind that GOP Presidential Nominee Mitt Romney said it was money wasted on “losers.” It is such a feel-good idea that people couldn’t help but embrace it. Then again, people have never been all that smart when it comes to electric cars.

When I moved to Spokane, Wash., in 1981 with my new wife and our baby I still had the last remnant of my bachelorhood. It was my 1977 Pontiac Firebird Trans Am, fire-engine red with a screaming chicken on the hood that covered the 400-cubic-inch engine. It also had a shaker hood that rattled when the V-8 was just idling noisily as the exhaust moved through the Hollywood mufflers.

Because it was bought in Canada, it also had a block heater on the engine. A block heater is nothing more than a coil that you plug in to an electric socket at night to keep the engine warm so a car will start during subzero-temperature winter nights in Canada.

A middle-aged man in a nice suit saw my muscle car idling at a stop sign in Spokane and noticed the electric plug that came out from the front to power the small electric heater.

“Is that one of them new electric cars?”

I explained it wasn’t and gave it some gas to prove it when the light turned green. Yet the truth was that what I was driving was much more practical than any electric car built during that era.

I know this because my dad — an oil man, of all things — was pretty sure that gasoline costs were going to soar. In the late 1970s, he almost bought a pure electric car from American Motors Corporation: the Electron. The car was extremely expensive. As I recall, it cost more than $20,000, which is $60,000 in today’s dollars. Worst of all, round trip from where my dad lived to his office in downtown Spokane was 30 miles. The extended range on the Electron was about 30 miles. My dad didn’t have to be a genius to know that he would have to push his car home some nights.

More than four decades later, the public is still a long way from embracing the electric car, despite how many tax credits Obama throws at it. Electric-vehicle sales since 2011 totaled fewer than 50,000 through last fall, only 5 percent of Obama’s target.

Bloomberg reported: “The reality is: that business model isn’t there yet,” said Brett Smith, co-director of manufacturing, engineering and technology at the Center for Automotive Research in Ann Arbor, Michigan. “It isn’t there yet for volume. It isn’t there yet for reaching the mass consumer. And it probably isn’t going to be there for a while.”

Yet Tesla Motors, Inc. is pushing its electric car upon the American people with the help of the President.

In November, Reuters reported:

The re-election of President Barack Obama will likely mean a continuation of the U.S. government’s policy promoting electric and hybrid vehicles, Elon Musk, the chief executive of electric car maker Tesla Motors Inc , said on Monday.

“I think that we can expect at least that things will continue as they have,” Musk told reporters at an event in New York. “I wouldn’t expect it to get any worse for electric vehicles, hopefully it will get a little better.”

That certainly was not the conclusion of a new study released at the end of 2012 by the Indiana University School of Public and Environmental Affairs. It cast doubt on the Obama Administration’s goal of putting 1 million plug-in electric vehicles on the road by 2015.

“The perceived drawbacks of electric vehicles outweigh the advantages for most consumers,” the study said.

Stated a press release from the university: “Consumers are somewhat more interested in buying hybrid electric vehicles, with a gasoline-powered backup engine, than electric-only vehicles. This suggests there may be better market potential for hybrids like the Chevy Volt, Toyota Plug-In Prius and Ford C-Max Energi Plug-In.”

Indiana University researchers surveyed more than 2,300 adult drivers in 21 large U.S. cities and found car buyers in Dallas; Fort Worth, Texas; San Antonio; Indianapolis; Detroit; and Nashville, Tenn., show very little interest in electric cars.

Edmunds Inside Line concluded on Dec. 27: “As quickly as battery technology is advancing, pure electric vehicles still present too many compromises for the average consumer in terms of range and cost.”

One last thought: What if Obama and his green backers ever got their way and produced not 1 million but tens of millions of electric cars? What would juice up all those wall sockets that would charge those cars? After all, electricity isn’t free. Just ask any person who has to pay an electric bill. And a car is going to suck a lot more electricity than this computer I am typing on.

Businessman and economist Grady Means may have explained it best in The Washington Times:

Since the 1970s, the U.S. Department of Energy has “invested” more than $1 trillion in “alternative energy” schemes. I say “schemes” because after all of these investments, solar power, the darling of the White House and its friends and the recipient of massive grants and subsidies, results in one ten-thousandth of the electrical production in America. Wind power, after scarring a huge amount of America’s most beautiful scenery, amounts to a whopping 3 percent of electricity production. If these dials have barely moved after 40 years and $1 trillion, they are not going to move much in the next half-century. If electric cars ever roll, they will be powered by electricity from coal (nearly 50 percent of all electricity production), nuclear (20 percent), natural gas (20 percent) and hydro (most of the rest). In other words, expensive “electric cars” are actually, largely, “coal cars” — welcome to the 19th century.

Yes, my friends, expensive, unreliable cars with poor performance may not be so clean after all.

Obama went back on vacation last week to Hawaii. I think this future transportation infrastructure that he has dreamed up works great when he rolls his Presidential golf carts across the rolling green countryside on the Island. But it isn’t very practical when it comes to making America clean or competitive.

Yours in good times and bad,

–John Myers
Editor, Myers Energy & Gold Report

John Myers

is editor of Myers’ Energy and Gold Report. The son of C.V. Myers, the original publisher of Oilweek Magazine, John has worked with two of the world’s largest investment publishers, Phillips and Agora. He was the original editor for Outstanding Investments and has more than 20 years experience as an investment writer. John is a graduate of the University of Calgary. He has worked for Prudential Securities in Spokane, Wash., as a registered investment advisor. His office location in Calgary, Alberta, is just minutes away from the headquarters of some of the biggest players in today’s energy markets. This gives him personal access to everyone from oil CEOs to roughnecks, where he learns secrets from oil insiders he passes on to his subscribers. Plus, during his years in Spokane he cultivated a network of relationships with mining insiders in Idaho, Oregon and Washington.

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  • independant thinker

    If I could afford to purchase and support three or four vehicles I MIGHT purchase an electric car. Since I cannot afford to do so I must rely on my gas powered pickup that can haul a half ton when needed and pull 5,000+ pounds on a trailer over hills, mountains, and around curves. I also need the range of the gas powered truck and car (my wife’s vehicle). A vehicle that will barely (if we are lucky) make it to our most frequent out of town destination and would have to be recharged for several hours immediately upon our arrival is useless to us. In fact the only out of town destination it would be good for is the one we go to the least.

    If they ever devolop an electric vehicle the size of a crossover vehicle that has a 750-1,000 mile range that can be fully recharged in a couple of hours, is reliable as my truck, and is affordable I would buy it.

    • FreedomFighter

      Tesla built an electric car that ran all day…the key to electric vehicals is wireless transmission of electricity, something Tesla invented also, alas big money(JP Morgan) killed the idea due to not having the means to “CHARGE YOU” for the electricty.

      Can it be done now? Dont know, but has been done in the past.

      Check out Tesla, a man way ahead of his time.

      Laus Deo
      Semper Fi

      • Right Brain Thinker

        Don’t buy any stock in companies that specialize in “wireless transmission of electricity” for use in cars. Ain’t EVER gonna happen. BAAAAAAD science in that one.

        News from VA today is that our “empty suit, empty head, and a nice haircut” Repug governor is going to solve our transportation funding deficit by eliminating the gas tax! And raising the sales tax on everything else! And the kicker—imposing a $100 fee on vehicles that “use alternative fuels”. Need I explain the craziness of ALL of that?

        He will get many other fools in other states thinking with these moves, so think twice about buying an electric or even a hybrid. Buy a big honker truck or SUV—-burn that gas!—-pay less for it but more for everything else.

        Lord love a duck!

      • Dark Patriot

        Tesla was spraying the area with microwaves. Very bad for living tings.

      • FreedomFighter

        ……..A Tesla coil is a special transformer that takes a small amount of power and boosts it rapidly to a great deal of power. The high-frequency output of even a small Tesla coil can light up fluorescent tubes held several feet away without any wire connections. Even a large number of spent or discarded fluorescent tubes (their burned out cathodes are irrelevant) will light up if hung near a long wire running from a Tesla coil while using less than 100 watts drawn by the coil itself when plugged into an electrical outlet! Since the Tesla coil steps up the voltage to such a high degree, the alternating oscillations achieve sufficient excitations within the tubes of gases to produce lighting at a minimal expense of original power! Fluorescent tubes can be held under high-tension wires to produce the same lighting up effect. Remember the farmer a few years ago who was caught with an adaptive transformer under a set of high tension lines that ran over his property? Through the air, he pulled down all the power he needed to run his farm without using any connecting apparatus to the lines overhead! Any electrical engineer with the proper materials can do the same thing.

        ……..Incandescent bulbs burn high resistance filaments that gobble up energy. Fluorescent tubes burn filaments (cathodes) to create an electrical flow that sets their internal phosphorus coatings aglow. Using a Tesla coil, high voltage AC can light up glass-enclosed vacuum bulbs coolly without any gases inside them at all! Any number of cold light bulbs can be lit using only one Tesla coil, and since there is nothing inside them to burn out, they can last indefinitely. It seems like a low cost form of street lighting, doesn’t it?

        ……..When Tesla was determining the resonant frequencies of the earth to potentially transmit unlimited electric power, he also recognized frequencies that acted as a damping field to nullify electric power. With the advent of the wireless and Tesla’s unique investigations into broadcasting electricity, a dozen or more inventors thereafter announced their own means for transmitting electrical energy without wires. One British inventor, H. Grindell-Matthews, actually demonstrated his “mystery ray” apparatus in 1924 to a Popular Science Monthly writer in London (See: Pop. Sci. Monthly, Aug. 1924, P. 33). When his beam was directed toward the magneto system of a gasoline engine, it stopped the system. Afterwards, it ignited gun powder, lit an electric lamp bulb from a distance and killed a mouse in seconds! Grindell-Matthews said the secret was involved with the “carrier beam” he used to conduct a high-voltage, low-frequency electrical current. During 1936, Guglielmo Marconi experimented with extremely low frequency (ELF) waves and displayed their exceptional ability to penetrate metallic shielding. These waves could affect electrical devices, overload circuits and cause machines like generators, electric motors and automobiles to stall. Diesel engines, which do not rely on electrical ignition, were not affected. Mysteriously, Marconi’s research on the subject was never found after the war.

        A few quick googles returns much on Tesla and wireless electricity, but alas I agree, greedy bastages cant “charge you” and regulate it, its not gonna happen.

        Laus Deo
        Semper Fi

      • Nadzieja Batki

        Electric cars are planned for the future cities where noone is going to go anywhere, people will be locked in in the locations they reside for a lifetime. This was done in Europe of old where most people never went further than 50 miles in their lifetime.

      • Right Brain Thinker

        Like I said, FreedomFighter, it’s BAAAAAAD science, and NO amount of googling of wing-nut NON-science sites and copying what you find there for us will change that.

        First, there are a few physical “laws” that get in the way. Like some of those “conservation of” ones? A Tesla coil does NOT take a “small amount” of “power” and turn it into a “large amount”—-it merely CHANGES the characteristics of that “power”, and doesn’t alter the quantity (actually loses a bit).

        After that misleading start, the rest of the paragraph IS pretty much all correct, although I’m quite sure the farmer did NOT pull down “all the power he needed to run his farm” or much of anything. Any physics teacher can do the same thing, by the way—-you don’t need to be an “electrical engineer”. I had several pieces of apparatus that we used in class to demonstrate this—-none of this phenomenon is able to be “stepped up” to a level where it could be of practical use, unfortunately,

        The second paragraph is pretty much correct at first glance too, except for the small detail that incandescents do NOT “burn” filaments but merely heat them up, AND fluorescent tubes are not totally empty of gases, so “without any gases at all” is also a misstatement of fact, AND one can NOT light “any number of light bulbs using one Tesla coil” any more than one can light the world with one match, AND it is a bit contradictory to say “fluorescent tubes burn filaments” and then say “there is nothing inside them to burn”, AND we all know that fluorescents DON’T last “indefinitely”, just a lot longer than incandescents.

        And the conclusion to this NON argument using NON facts? “It seems like a low cost form of street lighting, doesn’t it?” It sure might to those who don’t understand the science.

        The last paragraph is such wing-nutty, non-science horsepucky that I won’t bother to dissect it. Suffice to say that …”potentially transmit unlimited electric power”, “damping fields to nullify electric power”, “broadcasting electricity”, “transmitting electrical energy without wires”, “mystery rays” (MY FAVORITE), and all the rest are BAAAAAAAD science.

        I hope none of this sticks in anyone’s brain, FF,—-you can do a lot of damage by posting this stuff.

        Laus Veritas and S/F to you

      • FreedomFighter

        Only damage to your Masters, and I will let history tell the of the genius of Tesla, he invented the modern electrified world…and you did what? I believe the same words you use were used by his detractors 100 years ago…funny thing is… we now use alternating current and every electric motor is based off his patents, not to mention radio, radar, remote control…etc etc

        Please dont let your limited ability to think stand in the way of a mental giant such as Tesla or his ideas, he just may be right, we just have not figured out how to do it.

        Laus Deo
        Semper Fi

      • FreedomFighter

        RBT please note and count the light bulbs being lighted at about 1 min into the video

        Nikola Tesla – Wardenclyffe Tower

        Laus Deo
        Semper Fi

      • DaveH

        The truth, FreedomFighter or RBT, would prove itself in the Free Market if we got Big Government out of our Marketplaces. Without the Force of Big Government distorting the Marketplace with their Crony Capitalist favoritism, the best operators would win the battle and the consumers would get what THEY want — Not what some Liberal Progressive Leaders want for them.

      • Dan Mancuso

        Would any of you care to comment on why the FBI STOLE all of Tesla’s papers and what might be in them, as in a potential form of free energy the elite don’t want us to have access to?
        Tesla was a genius before his time and was in regular conflict with other inventers and their backers, who, for whatever reason, got the fame and money and used his genius to benefit themselves. He is an unsung hero, discarded in the trash bin of history!

      • Right Brain Thinker

        All this stuff is not worth talking about. Tesla was a scientist. Tesla had some good things to say. Did he have some goofy ideas too? YES. Was he an Einstein or an Edison or a Newton or a Darwin? NO, and that’s why mention of him only appears on wing-nut science and wing-nut conspiracy sites. Why did the FBI steal his papers? LOL Because they needed to fill the file cabinet where they also keep the all those “secrets” that would “revolutionize life as we know it” if only we knew—-like how to run an internal combustion engine using water for fuel and getting 76 mpg. It’s all a government plot, you see, and O’Bama is behind it all. Lord love a duck!

      • Bob W.

        Rightbrainthinker, You are stupid and do not know your history. Edison did not invent the incandicent light bulb, he perfected it,( in 7 years with help from a lab full of assistants).
        In 1892 both Edison and Tesla competed to light the Chicago Worlds Fair known as the Columbian Exposition. Tesla won but Edison, (who held the patent on incancecent blubs) would not allow Tesla to use them. Tesla concieved the idea for flourecent lighting and then invented them and mass produced them and installed them at the fair, all in less than 1 year.
        Tesla is the Genius behind our entire modern world, radio, TV, computers, electric appliances, and almost everything else we now take for granted. As I said you are wilfully ignorant and stupid.

        • Nick Czudy

          Bob.W. I second your opinion. Tesla was a genius beyond any other scientist of his time. He was the one that invented the AC electrical system that is used world wide. Westinghouse was using DC electricity and had too many problems and was limited in the distance that his electricity could run.

          Tesla was so far ahead of any of his peers. I have always wondered why he has been left in the dark my self. The average person knows about Edison but very few know about Tesla. He was also the one that came up with the idea behind the HARP project.

      • Right Brain Thinker

        Never said Edison invented anything, Bob W. My point was that Edison’s name is known by almost everyone and Tesla (who I DID say was a smart man who had made big contributions), was a footnote and forgotten.

        Anyone who wants to argue about that for no real reason is the one who is “willfully ignorant and stupid”. Or are you a descendant of Tesla and want to see him get more credit for his contributions? That I can understand.

      • Benjamin Fox

        Hope your having a good day FreedomFighter. I know how to cure all this trash, put all the green people and global warming nuts on a island with everything they need except oil, gas or anything they hate and left them live there so they would leave people with brains alone. God Bless and Semper FI:

    • patrick

      Those are some old ideas you have there do you work for the oil and gas companies?

    • old hillbilly

      The issue is borrowing 46 cents on every dollar spent WITHOUT BUDGET OR CHECKS AND BALANCES, plus $16+ trillion of recognized debt; as much as $200+ trillion SSI missing (315mm citizens ½ funded @ $1.3mm) to $100 trillion ¼ funded; plus all upside-down government, union, private, and other secure bond & currency based retirement plans puts us in a position similar to 1945 Hiroshima or maybe 2012 Detroit!

      There is no authority to spend anything! The public wealth belongs to the citizens, not Obama, Reed, Pelosi, McConnell, nor Boehner! Because all five are participating in “undefined-uncontrolled” blank check spending, all five share the guilt! Of the many debt increase approvals, where is the president granted powers to give citizen benefits to aliens, conduct wars without declaration, finance terrorists, give “PC” contributors unlimited boondoggle cash, and endless other travesties noted herein. Strangely, we respect traitors who openly plunder our nation! Accountability requires prosecution! Sleep well!

    • ernest

      all this talk about electric cars is just so much smoke, there are other ways a lot better then electric one I read about in the late 60s was a fuel expansion engine but it worked with freon gas ( it was made illegal shortly after that it was said it harmed the ozone ? )
      so the same thing will happen to anything that could replace oil.

    • larry ryan

      Might consider a hybrid, if they’d build a decent one. The hybrids I’ve test driven now are poorly built, small and uncomfortable. And without tax paid subsidy, way too expensive. Note I didn’t say government subsidy. Government doesn’t pay anything. Taxes do. Don’t much like the government weasel mouth way of labeling things to sound like what they’re not. All electric cars are too expensive and too inefficient right now to be practical. The range is too short without needing a recharge and nobody seems to want to mention that the battery life is about 5 years, then needs a $20,000 replacement. Without that new battery, you own a very expensive planter.

      • Kinetic1

        Hybrids are one way to deal with the range issues, but the reality is that manufacturers prefer them over electrics. Consider this; an electric car has no oil, coolant, filters or other associated parts. Auto dealers make a great deal of money on regular maintenance the would all go out the window with an electric. A hybrid on the other hand still requires all the expense of a regular gas vehicle! Is that really what people want?

        Chevy came close with the Volt, but IMHO they’re still off the mark. Back in the early days of combustion engine development builders found that gasoline engines were not suitable for vehicles like fire engines where the same engine would be needed to run pumps and such. Diesel was the answer. These engines could run at a constant steady pace for hours with no noticeable strain. Add to this the Diesels relative efficiency and ability to run on simple bio fuels and one begins to wonder why, when choosing a combustion engine to run a generator did Chevy choose gas?

      • moonbeam

        “Government doesn’t pay anything. Taxes do.”

        Now, you’ve hit on something there. You wouldn’t believe, but then maybe you would, the people who think the government pays for everything. When I tell them “No, WE are paying for it with our tax dollars” all I get is a blank stare and crickets in the background.

        And these are people voting in our races putting illegal aliens in power who promise them free phones, food stamps, healthcare and whatever else they can leech off of others.

        Got this friend who gets the free phone, SSI, food stamps and free healthcare. She gets 250 FREE minutes/month on her FREE phone. She uses them all up in a few days making BS phone calls, then she has her hand out “lemme use your phone.” Well, I put a stop to it long ago. She will even offer MY stuff to others for their use! Pisses me off to no fkg end. But as I said, I put a STOP to it. Not into socialism. I come from a place where you freaking work for what you want.

        I pay $140 CASH MONEY every 3 months for unlimited everything on my phone. It ends up saving me from spending $50/month for 3 months. I REFUSE to let her tap into MY resources that I pay for while she literally wastes her FREE stuff that, again, I must pay EXTRA for mine so that she can have free stuff.

      • Kinetic1

        Unfortunately there will always be those who take advantage of the system. As I have said before, I would rater pay my $1,000 a month premium to the government and see all Americans with health care than give it to a corporation, but my altruistic attitude ends with those who choose not to work rather than those who have fallen on hard times. Maybe if more parents would teach their children the value of work? My eldest used to spend his Holidays working in the Bike shop with me. He enjoyed helping customers make the right choice and he learned how to make change without the aid of a computer. These days I often have to help the kid behind the fast food counter figure out the change if I find that quarter I was looking for after he has rung things up.

      • vicki

        Kinetic1 says to Moonbeam:
        “Unfortunately there will always be those who take advantage of the system. As I have said before, I would rater pay my $1,000 a month premium to the government and see all Americans with health care than give it to a corporation, but my altruistic attitude ends with those who choose not to work rather than those who have fallen on hard times.”

        And I support your altruism. What I OBJECT to is your support for government FORCING me to pay my premium to your favorite charity (government). As I have told Karolyn before I have my own brothers to keep.

    • Nick Czudy

      Mr Meyer.
      The whole negative tone of your rant, is based on keeping our gas guzzlers and carbon producing vehicles because an electric cars are not equal in performance, range and cost. I just saw a report, that the Chevy Volt and Toyota Prius cost about 20 to 25% the cost of operating a normal gas car. That would be based in the current electrical and gasoline costs. The range is several hundred miles. Now if you are commuting to work or grocery shopping this will handle 90% of your auto needs.
      If you intend to tow your cabin cruiser or 5th wheel. then it will not fit the bill. But a taxi driver friend of mine that drives a Prius, told me that he uses 20% of the fuel that his previous gas car used. It is the only way that he can make any money. He told me that he used to spend about $80.00 a day with his gas car. Now it is about $15.00 a day. This taxi company is replacing all new cars with these hybrids.

      Why are the right wing, so anti-science and against progress? It just seems to permeate the thinking of the right and GOP. I am putting you in the bracket of being a right wing pundit. If I am wrong, then I apologize. I know that most of the right wing politicians are being paid lots of money from the gasoline lobby. Is this the reason why you are so anti science and progress.
      I think that the hybrids are viable and cost effective now. In a another decade when cost effective batteries are discovered, the all electric vehicles will be here. Just wait for the cost of gas to increase and see how many more hybrids and electric cars will be sold. But are you going to wait, until there is a gas shortage to start work on electric cars? Or should we not be working on that problem now, so when a gas crisis hits us, we will have a viable alternative? It will help the USA become less reliant on importing oil from our enemies.

    • Doubtful Avenger

      Under what theory or authority, real or imagined, does the arrogant punk in the White House keep spending tax dollars (and borrowed money) on this kind of garbage? Can’ the House just take away the checkbook and only allow/authorize spending that is pre-approved? If not, why not?

    • dan

      diesel electric for trucks and trains and let the commuters use Mr.Rodgers Trolley or
      the inter-urban as it was known before GM tore up the tracks.

  • Harold Olsen

    From what I’ve heard about electric cars, they are useless for driving long distances. If you wanted to take a trip from one state to another, forget about taking the care if it’s electric. Perhaps Obama has some sort of deal with airlines, trains and bus companies and gets a kickback.

    • eddie47d

      Most families have two cars and electric can be great for that second car within the city or or going to work. That is well known that you can’t drive long distances yet there are plenty of folks who could benefit from them. I noticed that Walgreens has a charging station so it may be convienient for local driving.

      • Mikey

        This time you are right. I have an electric vehicle which I “built” from an old VW. I use it for all my around town errands. I commute to work in a gasoline vehicle, since my EV range isn’t far enough.
        In John’s article, he states that EV’s are “coal burners”, which is true in most parts of the country. However, because of the high efficiency of EV’s they actually put out less carbon (and other) emissions that a gasoline engine. And, if you live in an area where a larger portion of your energy comes from wind like I do, the emissions per mile are significantly less.

        Why would a conservative like myself build an electric car? It’s not so hard to figure out. Self reliance is important to me. I am currently putting solar panels on my roof, which will allow me to harvest the sun for power and charging of my car. This lessens my dependence on oil companies and electric companies. And the best part is…..I save MONEY! With all my trips to the grocery store, restaurants, post office, etc., my electricity bill has only gone up about $10 a month since I built my EV. Once my solar panels are up, I won’t be paying electric companies or oil companies anything….true independence.

        Range anxiety is still a problem for most consumers, it’s easy to see why. There aren’t enough charging stations in place yet. It’s kind of like the chicken and the egg: People won’t buy the cars until there are enough charging locations, and no one want’s to invest in charging stations because the demand is so low right now. It will take time, but eventually EV’s will be as common as fuel burners.
        I agree with John that subsidies are not always the answer, but I must point out that oil companies have been getting subsidies for decades. Don’t alternatives deserve the same treatment?

        If you want real information about EV’s from the guys that actually know, build, study and fully understand them, check out the Electric Auto Association They’ve been around for 45 years. They’ve done all the research on efficiency, range, and emissions. And when gasoline goes up to $10 or $20 a gallon, those with EV’s will be way ahead.

      • Capitalist at Birth

        Mikey and eddie You are both full of crap.

      • Right Brain Thinker

        EXCELLENT comment, (?) at Birth (I don’t want to insult, so I won’t put in one of the many words that come to mind.

        Mikey and eddie are not full of crap—-they both make some good points and my opinion of Mikey has gone up while my opinion of you has continued its decline.

        “Full of crap”, you say? Lord love a duck, (?)AB. I’d ask you for proof of that but you’d probably say “They have brown eyes”.

      • Mikey

        Capitalist, I usually agree with your views. However, this is something that I actually know a little about. Please try to keep an open mind before dismissing my arguments as B. S. I did a lot of research before I built my EV, and many of Johns points are not correct at this point in time.
        Don’t get me wrong, I still love my gas burners. I’ve got 6 cars and trucks, and 5 motorcycles. But I love the efficiency of my EV, and believe this is the future.

      • independant thinker

        “Range anxiety is still a problem for most consumers, it’s easy to see why. There aren’t enough charging stations in place yet.”

        Even when the recharge stations are built if you have to stop for 2-4 hours for a recharge every 150 miles or so the EV is still useless for anything other than local trips.

      • Benjamin Fox

        eddie teddy 47 ways to be a commie, you truly are a idiot, what will your electric bill going to be each month after you charge that second car, do you sleep with obozo? You sound just like him on every comment you make. Wow, stupid is as stupid does.

      • eddie47d

        At it again “Foxy” Benjamin? As in sly old fox!

      • Kinetic1

        OK, let’s talk relative costs. I’ve looked around a bit and found what I feel are the most honest comparison out there. 2 cars, both Mini Coopers, one electric and one gas. Based on fuel costs in Portland Oregon at the time of printing, the cost to travel 100 miles is $1.32 as opposed to $8.64.
        In a real life report, an owner in New Jersey finds that he spends about $3.20 to fully charge his EV, which gives him 100 miles or so. Cheap gas in New Jersey is running $3.15 (though the Cooper requires Premium,) so at an EPA combined average of 31 mpg we’re looking at over $10.00 for 100 miles. You might save a buck if it’s all highway driving, but you’ll pay more if you use the Premium gas they recommend.
        Of course these rates depend on were you live and when you charge, but in most cases an EV owner can easily run their car for at least 50% than a comparable gas vehicle.

        Needless to say, we need to consider the cost of maintenance. A lot of attention is given to the cost of replacing that electric cars battery pack, but the cost of maintaing a combustion engine with over 15,000 parts tends to balance things out. Parts like filters, belts, spark plugs etc and fluids like oil and coolant add a lot to the cost of running a vehicle. In the end electrics still win. Even the hourly repair rate is cheaper due to the relatively easy job of trouble shooting and the simplicity of replacing parts. Bottom line, if an electric fits into your lifestyle it’s a good investment.

      • Flashy

        Kinetic, as i stated, there are charging stations being built everywhere in this city. I went to the Mall today to pick something up, and because of this subject, i counted the numbers of stalls. 18. Cost was metered much like the electric meter on the side of the house. Interesting. The city has much the same thing throughout, always a car or two parked in those spaces…but I haven’t checked to price there.

        The next big rumored advance in batteries is the time taken to recharge. Fast super recharge is available today. The drawback is akin to when one uses the car charger on their cell instead of the home trickle charge unit. it kills the life of the battery. Want to shorten your cell battery? Use the car charger.

        That’s a way they seem to now be attacking it. If recharge time can be cut to mere minyutes, then it really competes with gas engines…and the price of fuel seals the deal.

        I tapped into a few spreadsheets, and the estimated time a motorist is at a gas station fueling is 9 mins, 34 seconds. The average time spent on premises is 13 mins 14 seconds. (these are real data business numbers though not in any number to be reliable cross the board).

        If recharge can be taken to 15 minutes or so, and even if the range is less than gasoline by half…the savings of fuel costs alone will entice the consumer.

        THEN we can throw off the yoke of Oil, bid adieu to the Middle East political situation, massive reduction in naval forces committed to the Gulf…..

        Hmmm, I think i just created an assignment for someone …

      • Vicki

        Mikey and Eddie47d. If electric cars are so great (and I think that they might be) then let the free market decide and keep government (and its subsidies to cronies) out of it.

      • ibcamn

        Eddie,yes the elec. car could be a great 2nd car,i would say shopping at a mall(everything is at one place)because range has been the issue,you better hope that mall is less than 10 miles away(back n forth with no charging)and yes for shopping,again less than 10 miles,and yes for work,again less than 10 miles(most,or all companies don’t have charging stations)and when you get home just plug it in,which your electric comes from where?some have solar cells(rich people)but don’t think about that end of it,it would be a great car for small town USA(you’d have to[afford] want one!),but nowhere else.and some would buy just to have one!i would like to buy that 8 wheeled elec car i saw in Japan,it was sooo cool!or maybe a Tesla,but i’d have to be a millionaire!…Plus a little side note;in California,there’s a guy(who for years)will take your car(dam near anything)and make it electric!and the cars get the average that Ferd and Gov’t Motors gets!some get better than the average!so what’s up with that?..just wanted to throw that out there.


      Obama has never been a person to let facts confuse him and his goofy ideas. Tesla was a man who had a thousand times the intellect of Obama, and was ten thousand times as creative.

      • Robert Smith

        Tesla is dead, just in case you haven’t noticed.

        Obama on the other hand is working hard on making sure America isn’t dependent upon diaper heads for energy. I consider that good for America.

        Of course, your mileage may vary.


      • Right Brain Thinker

        JUKEBOX says, “Obama has never been a person to let facts confuse him and his goofy ideas”. Are you sure you’re not describing yourself and some others on this site rather than O’Bama? GOOFY? Lord love a duck!

        Tesla was a man who made many good contributions to science, but he occasionally got a bit wing-nutty and has attracted a wing-nut followiing. And is saying “a thousand times the intellect” and “ten thousand times as creative” based on some sort of objective “measurement”? Wouldn’t “A LOT” have made the point? (and I hate people who exaggerate so—–1,000 to 1 and 10,000 to 1 are very big numbers (Or did you try to be”adult” and use them rather than say the “gazillions of bazillions of times” that you really wanted to use. Lord love a duck again!

      • JeffH

        Let me draw some comparisons between O’man and the title of this thread for the simple minded.

        “The Obama Car: Unaffordable, Unreliable And Ultimately Dirty”

        Unaffordable: That’s Obama straight up.

        Upon Inauguration: $10,626,877,048,913
        As of Jan 8, 2013: $16,432,659,028,067
        In 4.0 yrs Increased: $5,805,781,979,154
        I do realize that O’s predecessor carries some of the responsibility but…Obama has continued to grow government and give away the bank and has never seriously considered cutting the deficit or cutting spending.

        Unreliable: Yep, that’s the O’man. Promises, promises, promises. He never made a promis he intended to keep other than “redistribution”. Bottom line is that the O’man is a former lawyer, community organizer and a politician…the common denominator between them is that all three proffessions are made up of liars and Obama is a liar!

        Ultimately Dirty: No one in American politics can keep pace with Obama’s Dirty Chicago Machine, no one! Obama’s dirty politics has been at the forefront of every one of his campaigns since the very beginning of his political career.

        Obama’s was ruthless and successful in his efforts to knock all other challengers off the ballot when he ran for state senate. Obama has never won a truly contested election. He lost when he ran against Bobby Rush for his house seat, and conveniently Obama’s rival’s sealed divorce records were released in time to knock him out of the race leaving Obama to “battle” Alan Keyes, an extremely disliked conservative.

        The day after New Year’s 1996, operatives for Barack Obama filed into a barren hearing room of the Chicago Board of Election Commissioners.

        There they began the tedious process of challenging hundreds of signatures on the nominating petitions of state Sen. Alice Palmer, the longtime progressive activist from the city’s South Side. And they kept challenging petitions until every one of Obama’s four Democratic primary rivals was forced off the ballot.

        A close examination of Obama’s first campaign puts a hard edge on the image he has honed throughout his political career: The man now running for president on a message of giving a voice to the voiceless first entered public office not by leveling the playing field, but by clearing it.

        *In first campaign, Obama revealed hard-edged, uncompromising side in eliminating party rivals
        By David Jackson and Ray Long
        Chicago Tribune staff reporters
        April 4, 2007

      • Bob W.

        Yes, Robert Smith, Tesla is dead, but the modern world is is legacy. For you ignorant people who don’t keep up with what is really going on in the world, The United States is poised to become the worlds leading producer of oil and gas in the next 3 to 5 years and make Obama the savior of the world as we know it, and theUS will reclaim title to Super Power. The economy will explode and Obozo will be so powerful that the Congress will repeal the 22nd amendment and allow him to become president for life just like our other super socialist president FDR. There will be no need for the crappy electric cars and all this other ‘Green Energy’.

        • Gea

          Obama belongs to jail for treason of America, which he did by banning US marines to carry live munition in the Arab countries, so that they could not defend US diplomates and houses there, for his trying to subvert US Constitution in the US and to violate the Universal Declaration of Human Rights at the UN and for his allowing the genocidal supremacist, misogynist antismitic ideologists of Muslim Brotherhood into the Whtie house. The stated goal of Muslim Brotherhood is to “infiltrate America and destroy Western civilization from withhing and establish Islam to rule over all others”.

          The man is a traitor and does not belong in any position of power. He is leading America into the abys, by endorsing mooching and socialism and Naizi-like ideology of Islam which is financed by money from Arab and iranian oil that we purchase.

          Hopefully, Americans will wake up before it is too late and get Obama where he belongs: jail and out of the Whtie hosue, before he does more damage to America and before he grabs even more power from American people who work, unlike many moochers who get handouts and had gotten off their duffs for a couple of hours to make sure that they continue living on the work of others. Tesla was a genius, unlike Obama who is a superb demagogue who cannot manage anything but skillful lies.

          • Nick Czudy

            Gea, Are you living in a parallel dimension? Have you been drinking too much Koolaid from the right wing trough? Wow! Are there actually people like you, for real in the USA? Where have you received your education? You are too gullible. You cannot get all of your info from the Right Wing sources. You need to investigate them for yourself. You are so far off the beaten path. Can we add your name to the “Do not allow guns in your hands” list?

      • ibcamn

        The only down fall was that Tesla ran all his tests(later ones)with a generator!i know he started out with hand crank generators,but we would still need a power source,as we do now,deletes a lot of ideas!have to have a new idea and power source!..magnetic works awsome!!

    • Karolyn

      I knew somebody who crisscrossed the country in his hybrid. He loved it!

      • Bob W.

        Go back to sleep, Karolyn.!!!

    • Doubtful Avenger

      I just hope they make them noisier – I have almost been run over twice by a Prius on stealth mode!

      • Robert Smith

        I was multitasking, crossing the street, chewing gum, reading a newspaper, on my cell phone, and getting hit by a car all at once.


        (I can’t help but wonder who is going to take that one seriously.)

  • Kinetic1

    Most of the people I see rejecting all electric vehicles live in rural areas, and that makes sense. If you need a vehicle to travel long distances every day, electric is not there yet. But for those living in the city or in suburban locals, electrics can be very useful. Take the housewife/husband who’s regular use of a car is to deliver the kids to and from school and do the shopping. In most cases we’re looking at maybe 30 miles of “city” driving, the worst type for gas use and pollution. “Performance” is hardly an issue in stop and go traffic and the range is well within what the average electric can handle. And how about those city folk who drive no further than across town? Again, performance and range are not an issue, though air pollution sure is. And in other countries (thanks to American ingenuity) taxies are running electric with battery stations that switch the battery pack in less than 5 minutes! Why not use that American know how here? Well, some of us have the smarts, but others are just too slow to accept.

    I once had a talk with my dad about life in Los Angeles back when he was a kid. He recalled his family having a car and a “machine”. The “machine” was the electric vehicle his mother regularly drove to get groceries and such. When visiting my mother in law in Florida’s “Villages” I saw the same thing. Hundreds of seniors with gas powered cars and mini vans parked in the garage while they tooled around in their electric golf carts. So before you go off on a tangent about how unrealistic electrics are, consider what most American’s really need. Just how fast do you need to get from 0 to 60? How far do you really drive every day? Be realistic about how well they would really work if more people were honest with themselves. You know, like you should have been back when you wasted all that money back in the 70′s trying to look like Burt Reynolds in Smokey and the Bandit.

    • DaveH

      No tangent necessary. Let those who desire electric vehicles pay for them with their own money, no taxpayer subsidies. It’s called Freedom.
      Can Liberal Progressives keep their hands out of other peoples’ pockets? Not likely.

      • Mikey

        I agree that we subsidize far too many things, but consider this: Oil companies have been subsidized for decades. If we are fair about it, remove all subsidies including those to oil companies. Fuel prices will jump, (and they are high enough already). If that happens, EV’s will become more popular because of their low fuel cost (compared to gasoline).
        Either remove all energy subsidies, or subsidize alternatives equally to fossil fuels. Either way there is an advantage to EV’s.

      • Bill

        I agree, Dave H
        Let the free market prevail. There is nothing to stop car makers from producing electric cars. Just keep the tax payer money out of it

      • http://google David

        You got, do not care if my car runs on barnyard waste, let capitalism flourish!

      • Capitalist at Birth

        Mikey, Can you document which oil companies receive the tax credits? Do your home work before you make it sound like big oil companies are receiving these tax credits. i think you may be surprised the reason for, and who receives those credits. Obviously you are a child. Who would use the name Mikey?

      • Mikey

        Here’s just one article, there are many:
        Now why would you make a personal attack on my name simply because you disagree with me and have different information than I do. Friends and family have called me Mikey for years, out of affection and not because I exhibit childish behaviors (like name calling).

      • Right Brain Thinker

        DaveH says, “No tangent necessary. Let those who desire electric vehicles pay for them with their own money, no taxpayer subsidies. It’s called Freedom”
        Isn’t that the same old tired TANGENT DaveH is always going off on? Ah, yes! He proves it by following that with, “Can Liberal Progressives keep their hands out of other peoples’ pockets? Not likely.”, so we know he is going off into that Libertarian La-La land of the far past in which electricity and automobiles hadn’t even been “invented”.

        My rising opinion of MIkey sank a bit when he talked about owning a dozen internal combustion powered vehicles (Why?), but it came up some when he made some good remarks about subsidies

        After some two cents from Bill and David, (?)at birth returns with the usual “can you document” horsepucky that is always used by those who “go on tangents” and try to deflect and confuse. Don’t bother, Mikey, anyone who is at all aware of the truth knows what has been going on—you’re a conservative and I’m a Lib-Prog communist socialist marxist fascist O’Bama lover AND WE AGREE on this—-must be some truth in what you said.

        Hey, (?)AB. Since you seem to be so “up” on this, why don’t YOU be the one to surprise US and tell us about these subsidies—-why should we be “surprised” at the “reasons for” and “who” receives them? I’m all ears.

        And it’s always nice to use a gratuitous insult when you’re trying to get people to see your point of view, as in saying to someone, “Obviously you are a child. Who would use the name Mikey”. Since that frees me from my earlier statement that I didn’t want to “insult”, I will give you some of the words that we should insert in place of “Capitalist”. How about these? Self-deluded, ignorant, moron, imbecile, or stupid for starters? Although those words are not really insults, just good descriptors of someone who would declare that he was a “Capitalist” from the minute he was born. Lord love a duck!

      • DaveH

        As usual, Lizard Brain has nothing to add to the conversation but personal attacks.

      • Flashy

        “I agree, Dave H
        Let the free market prevail. There is nothing to stop car makers from producing electric cars. Just keep the tax payer money out of it” <— bill…showing once again the true shallowness of his thinking,

        OK Bill…let's cut out all oil subsidies and tax bennies. Let's hand out oil leases at market pricing instead of artificially low rents, and let's tell the oil industry they're on their own. Then, since we spend how much in keeping the Gulf open for oil tankers etc…let's cut out that as well.

        There ya go…free market conditions.

        You show your ignorance with your comments. please try to think…you may find it surprising.

      • Nadzieja Batki

        But Bill, you know that taxpayers are going to subsidize electric cars because those that want to manufacture electric cars will “petition” the government to put the competition out of business.

      • DaveH

        No Flashshill,
        You show your ignorance. Only a very ignorant person would believe that Government with all its coercive Power would behave better than people in a competitive Free Market.

      • DaveH

        For those who would like to be more knowledgeable than Flashshill and his handlers want you to be:

      • Bob W.

        Without other peoples money to spend, Socialists have nothing to do.

      • Doubtful Avenger

        What exactly are the so-called subsidies to oil companies? I hear that all the time, but I don’t see anything but some tax breaks. That is not the same as paying out taxpayer dollars paid in, as it was never the government’s or the taxpayers’ money in the first place. If we are talking about depletion allowances and tangible/intangible drilling deductions, that was to encourage oil and gas production, and, guess what, we are approaching a glut of both in our own country, and we have reduced the cost of energy dramatically – which is why electric cars might be affordable. I’m googling – is there such a subsidy, or is that one of those leftist lies?


      Kinetic, bicycles are still being manufactured, and in many places like China, Vietnam, etc. they are still the accepted mode of transportation. If you have never driven a powerful car, like Obama, then you probably want some type of Yugo, with no power and no individuality.

      • Robert Smith

        “Actually as for a personal car for Obama, he and Michelle own a 2008 Ford Escape hybrid.”

        That’s from:

        Oh, and you might be interested in: “”The McCains also own three 2000 NEV Gem electric vehicles, which are bubble-shaped cars popular in retirement communities.”


      • Kinetic1

        Yes, bicycles are still being built, mostly due to the fact that they are among the most efficient machines ever designed. (Yep, I spent a decade running a bike shop and building/designing some remarkable all terrain pedal powered vehicles.) I love my bikes, but I also love my cars. You want personality? Try the ’55 Studebaker President left to me by my grandfather. Power? During my time in the auto industry I had the opportunity to drive Porches, Alfas, Mustangs and more. I understand the fun one can (occasionally) have with a good, powerful car, as well as the pain one must suffer should they choose a Yugo or a Chevy Metro.

        Personality and power can be a lot of fun, but their not limited to gas engines. The “White Zombie”, a custom electric Nissan does Zero to 60 in under 3 sec. Many production electrics ooze style and do well under the 6 sec mark, but the point here is real life. Right now most EVs are being marketed for those only interested in economy. As time goes by I’m certain we will se more style work it’s way into the market (though for the past few decades it’s been harder and harder to tell the difference between all the sport sedans out there.)

        There will always be those who consider a Corvette, a Mustang or a Charger an exercise in masculinity and power (even if they don’t handle worth a damn,) but the need for such straight line power in the average drivers daily life is questionable at best. Style is out there if that is your concern, but let’s compare apples to apples.

    • larry ryan

      Price! Price, price, price!!! No government subsidy and your electric car now costs you $45,000. or more. And they’re badly built. Price may go down over time. My HD tv that cost $3,000 when it first came out can now be bought at walmart for $500. But show me the incentive to make them reasonably priced. Without advances in battery technology (again no incentive) the battery in an electric car MUST be replaced every 5 years. Right now that little price tag is around $20,000. That MAY go down over time, but I’m not betting on it. When you own a monopoly, where’s the incentive to charge less than you can get away with? Government subsidies? Government doesn’t pay for anything. Your precious government subsidies are tax money by a more palatable (the weasels think) name.
      And you dorks that casually throw around the “fact” that most people own several cars. I own one. Lot of people my age own only one. All I can afford and have no place to put the “spare” even if I wanted one. I like to visit my kids and grandkids. Lots of people my age and even younger do. 80 to 100 mile range is a joke.

      • Jonathan Baker

        I’m not sure where you got your information regarding battery replacement interval or cost to replace. Would you be kind enough to cite your sources.

        I drove a 2002 Prius for 8 years and it was running well when I sold it with 132,000 miles on it in 2010. Price to buy a new traction battery from the dealer was $2300 at that time and I had asked because the prospective buyer wanted to know what it would cost if the battery ever failed. From my research most Prii are running on their original traction batteries. Very few have needed to be replaced.

        I’m driving a Volt now – 10,000 miles in 10 months. 48% of the miles have been on electric, the balance using the charge sustaining mode of the internal combustion engine that runs the on-board generator. I’ve made 5 separate road trips of 700 miles each. The point that I am making is that buying an electric Volt doesn’t limit you in your driving range when you want to go farther than what the battery can initially provide. The cost for electric and gas has totalled $600; that’s 6 cents per mile to move the car. That is with electricity at 22 cents per kWh and premium gas at $4.20 a gallon. It is cheaper to run than my Prius was.

        It seems only fair that there be subsidies for electric car technology since the price of dino fuel in the US is kept artificially low through subsidies that the petroleum companies enjoy. Alternatively, no subsidies should be given to either. However, the lack of subsidies for the petroleum companies will force gas prices to increase sharply (perhaps 50%, according to some sources), making electric cars more attractive to the buying public, even though their prices will also increase.

  • Warrior

    Keep inflating the “dollar” and you are going to have limited choices. The “sheep dog” n chief is seeing to it. Baa, Baaa. What is “Volt” in chinese?

    • Robert Smith

      Don’t know what it is over there but in America it is an extremely practical car.

      Thousands have voted with their wallets.

      Motor Trend, remember they faught Ralph Nader tooth and nail, voted it car of the year.

      Remember, Jan 10, 2011? The plug-in Chevrolet Volt was named North American Car of the Year at the Detroit Auto Show on Monday.

      Seems to me if car enthusiasts are on board it ain’t such a bad idea.


      • DaveH

        Robert says — “Thousands have voted with their wallets”.

        Millions have voted with other peoples’ wallets. Isn’t “democracy” grand?

      • Nancy in Nebraska

        Hahaha! Sales are down! They have such a glut of them sitting around that they had to stop manufacturing! They had the problem of people’s houses burning down when the cars were being charged in garages. They SAY they’ve fixed that, but I don’t know… They had issues with them catching fire after accidents. Now the latest is that people could be electrocuted if they try to rescue you after an accident. Fire department rescue squads are having to attend special training to learn how to rescue people from electric cars without becoming electrocuted! So, NO! I don’t think I’d take a chance! At this point, it’s still a boondoggle!!! A great big scam to STEAL money from taxpayers and give it to their cronies!!!

      • Robert Smith

        DavidH says: “Millions have voted with other peoples’ wallets. Isn’t “democracy” grand?”

        Sure is.

        But sometimes it takes help to get things going. The fact is that electric cars are what’s best for America.

        Oh, and stop the oil subsidies and tax breaks for them.


      • W J Loc

        Robert does not seem to have a firm grasp on reality.

      • Capitalist at Birth

        Are you a complete ignoramus? Or just smoking too much reefer this morning?

      • Capitalist at Birth

        The truth comes out. You are poorly educated and will remain poor your entire life until you realize that you have been indoctrinated by those who want to enslave you. You want other peoples money to finance your pie in the sky dreams. In other words you think it is okay to steal from those who have more than you, because you exist. Sorry Charley. They will take their marbles home soon and you will be playing a game in an empty arena with no marbles.

      • larry ryan

        Robert, your arguement is specious. One half to three quarters of the price of the Volt is paid by governmnent subsidy. Let the electic lovers pay full price by themselves and see how loud their “wallet” speaks.

      • Average Joe

        “But sometimes it takes help to get things going. The fact is that electric cars are what’s best for America.”

        Then by all means…offer it all of the “help” that you wish to offer. However, don’t expect me or anyone else that doesn’t want to help to contribute to your cause (through government theft; ie… Taxes)….we have our own causes to contribute to.

        Just because you believe that electric cars are “best for America”, does not make the statement true…and I am betting that their are millions of Americans (me being one of them)…who would wholeheartedly disagree with your premise….It is simply your opinion…and nothing more.


      • alpha-lemming

        Ever wonder why government (your guys) subsidizes oil and gas??? How about because government takes in 7-10 times the profit/gallon sold (depending on the State) vs. the evil oil companies. They’re subsidized to keep $$ coming into governments greedy little hands

        If someone could invent a perpetual motion machine akin to the Feds ability to grow by magnitudes….. we may have the perfect mode of transportation. The problem with a PM machine (bloated government) is that it requires infinite energy (tax dollars)….. but they’re gonna keep tryin’……

      • Average Joe

        “Late last year, the Internet went wild with the “news” that each Chevrolet Volt that was built cost taxpayers $250,000. That figure was completely untrue, of course, but the question of how much GM is paying to make each Volt is as close to a perennial one as we have ’round these parts when it comes to the new generation of plug-in vehicles. The latest figures, which come to us via “auto industry consultants who spoke with Reuters,” suggest that, currently, each Volt costs GM around $80,000, or at least somewhere between $76,000 and $88,000.

        That 80k breaks down this way: Each Volt currently has $56,000 in fixed costs – $18,650 in development costs and $37,350 in tooling costs – as well as $24,000 in parts and labor, according to the consultants. With each Volt sold, the $56,000 will drop by a little bit, but it’s a slow process. Reuters says GM has invested an estimated $1.2 billion into the Volt program so far and when you divide $1.2 billion by the 21,500 Volts sold in the U.S. so far, you get $56,000. This does not take advertising and marketing costs into account, or the number of Volts (and Opel Amperas) sold overseas. In response, GM issued a statement clarifying just how much Reuters is relying on current sales numbers to get to the $80k number, saying, Reuters’ estimate is “grossly wrong.”

        What GM isn’t saying is how much, exactly, it costs to make a Volt. But Doug Parks, GM’s vice president of global product programs, did admit that the Volt is a losing proposition, financially. He told Reuters, “It’s true, we’re not making money yet. … [It] eventually will make money. As the volume comes up and we get into the Gen 2 car, we’re going to turn (the losses) around.”


      • DaveH

        Robert says — “The fact is that electric cars are what’s best for America”.

        There you go, Folks, the elitist Liberal Progressive Robert thinks he knows what’s best for you.
        Thank you for being honest, Robert.

  • Whoo Hoo

    Electric golf cart have been around for years but you can’t drive them on the “public” roads because of “big government regulations” etc. Bottom line? The system is cracked.

    • tgsherman

      And they will all be made in China!!

  • budget thinker

    Boy another way to spend my money and could used elsewhere

    • Robert Smith

      Don’t worry. It will come back later. That’s what “renewable” energy is about.


      • DaveH

        If you think that, Robert, then why aren’t you Liberal Progressives making that investment with your own money? Think of the fortune you’ll make.

      • Bill

        I invest my own money in green technology stocks and have a good portfolio. How about you, Robert, how much have you invested?

        Green technology companies are feeling the pain of the anti business climate here in the U.S. and are having a hard time competing. The solar industry has been hit the hardest by overregulation that most of the solar panels sold in the US were made in China.

        One of the companies I invest in tried to open a factory in the US and the regulatory cost was so high that they could not be competitive. They were offered free factories by Korea and Germany. Those countries knows what it takes to put their workers to work.

        The only way you can open a factory in the US is with governments subsidies. We saw what happened with Solyndra. Obama and his buddies made a big killing off the taxpayers and nothing was produced. That is a good example of the reality of the global warming movement, it is all about the money

      • Robert Smith

        From DaveH: “then why aren’t you Liberal Progressives making that investment with your own money? ”

        Because I”m part of the middle class that has been crushed by the “trickle down” garbage and tax subsidies and breaks for the rich.

        If it were a level playing field I’d certainly invest, but I just don’t have the green to invest.


      • Bill

        So, are you saying that your success is is in somebody else’s hands and is not your fault. Maybe you should learn how to quit sucking on someone elses tit and stand on your own two feet

      • Bill

        If you would stop voting for the socialist candidates, there might be more opportunities available. However, good market or bad is it all up to you to create your own success

      • DaveH

        Big Government is what’s crushing you, Robert, and you vote for it. So don’t whine to us.
        For those who would like to understand better what has happened to our country:

  • Gea

    Tesla Motors produces electric cars that go 260 miles/charge and battery recharges in 3-6 hours (see Their Tesla Roadster is a sport car that has an acceleration like a Porshe, and their new cheaper model (done together with Toyota) is apparently a dream to drive.

    Build Your Dreams ( company in Shenzhen, China, which is 11% owned by Warren Buffet, produces many cars that go 260 miles/charge and their battery recharges in 1-2 hours. While Tesla technology is based on lithium battery, BYD uses a lead compound and thus much cheaper. When one counts CO2 produced by obtaining electricity for recharging electric battery, the CO2 production is 1/4 to 1/3 of what burning gasoline or diesel thus. I will be getting myself E-6 from China for $23K and ship it over for $3K. I will have them install solar panels on the roof and hub, to recharge battery during the day, so that no fossil fuel is burned for my moving around.

    Electric trains powered by linear solar power plants allong the lines for intercity travel and elecxtric battery buses with solar panels on the roofs (and suplemental small wind turbines for recharging batteries) are the way to go away from burning Arab oil and stop financing for terrorism and at the same time contributing to climate distrubances which cause more events like Sandy and hot winters.

    While Obama is very dangerous to American values of liberty, since he extolls supremacist misogynyist Nazi-like ideology of Islam and Qur’an, and paves a way for Muslim Brotherhood destruction of Western civlization,, in respect to electric cars promotion, he may be right (if it is done properly). We need to harvest solar, wind and geothermal energy (and water) on our roofs and back yards and store it in electric battery of our car for night uses. We must make US independent of the Arab and Iranian oil, which finances Islamic terrorism around thw rodl in their mosques where the young Muslims are taught that they are superior and that Western civlization must be destroyed. Switching to electric cars, trains and buses powered by small renewable harvesting of solar, wind, geothermal and other energy that is free of charge all over the Earth,. is the way to empower individuals not to be dependent on fossil corporations ;-)!

    • Bill

      Good points all. But be sure to include the premature deaths and brain damage caused by all the lead battery manufacturing in your model. These are minor things I know, but disposal of the lead batteries might be worth a mention as well since disposing the small battereis presently used in cars is a problem, how much more when the entire car is a lead battery.

      • Robert Smith

        Lead is a short term solution. There is RESEARCH going on that will solve that problem.


      • DaveH

        Care to share, Robert?

      • DaveH

        While we’re waiting for Robert’s response, readers can learn some reality:

      • Hedgehog

        Disposing of lead batteries has never been a problem. Melt the batteries down to extract the lead, then mold the lead into bullets or musket balls. If you don’t know what to do with bullets and musket balls, it’s too late, RIP.

      • Mikey

        First of all, lead acid batteries (although somewhat dangerous) are completely recyclable.
        Second, most new EV’s are using newer batteries like Lithium Ion and even some Salt based types of batteries. Battery technology is still in it’s infancy, and will continue to advance. You can find out about these and other EV related technologies at the Electric Auto Association’s web site ( ).

      • eddie47d

        Thanks for some common sense Mikey!

    • mark

      “While Obama is very dangerous to American values of liberty, since he extolls supremacist misogynyist Nazi-like ideology of Islam and Qur’an?” If you are going to comment on the electric car issue why not just do so? Why include this absolutely incomprehensible nonsense in the middle of your argument? Linking Nazism with the Qur’an and with President Obama is utterly ridiculous. The Nazis were racist white supremacists who despised blacks among others – Jews, Slavs, Gypsies, Mediterrannean whites. President Obama is half black and regarded by most Americans (and American state laws) as simply black. The idea that Obama, as a black man, would embrace an ideology that promotes virulent hatred of all blacks (check out American neo-Nazis on this, it is one of their cheif calling cards) is utterly ludicrous, and causes me to totally disregard the rest of your post.

      • Hersey

        You accuse him of erroneous statements but yours is even more so:
        “Mussolini, the originator of fascism, was lionized by the left, both in Europe and in America, during the 1920s. Even Hitler, who adopted fascist ideas in the 1920s, was seen by some, including W.E.B. Du Bois, as a man of the left.

        It was in the 1930s, when ugly internal and international actions by Hitler and Mussolini repelled the world, that the left distanced themselves from fascism and its Nazi offshoot — and verbally transferred these totalitarian dictatorships to the right, saddling their opponents with these pariahs.”

        Socialist or Fascist?

      • Gea

        Electric cars and renewable energy harvesting ARE directly related to Islam, which IS a supremacist ideology, similar to Nazi supremacist ideology, including delusional Jew hatred. Saudi and Iranian oil finance building mosques all over the world, with the spectific goal of teaching Islam, which promotes destroying Western civlization as many Muslim organizations openly proclaim, except that this is hidden by Obama administration, who gave his Muslim Brotherhood US taxpoayers money for their war on women and on Israel.

        Delusional Jew hatred is rampant among Muslims NOW ALL OVER THE WORLD, just as it was in Europe and particularly Germany in 1933, but there is a conspiracy of silence of the politically correct liberal circles, who do not bother to study Qur’an and Islam but pretend that all cultures are equal. NO THEY ARE NOT. Islam is INCOMPATIBLE with either US Conastitution or with they Universal Declaration of Human Rights and unless it reforms it is unfit for human consumption. Such gnorance of the root causes of antisemitism (by supremacist ideologies which promote delusional Jew hatred, as Nazism and Islam do) brought Holocaut and WWII, and Islamic delusional Jew hatred desires another Holocaust,this time in Israel, as Ahmedinijad speaks all the time. Obama cavorting with the Muslim Brotherhood, who openly state that their goal is to infiiltrate America and destroy Western civlization from within is totally unamerican. He should be impeached for treason of American values!

        If we stop using Arab and Iranian oil, the funding for hatred of Western civlization willl stop and this medieval evil ideology of Islam and sharia will disappear int he sands of history where they belong. There is no problem with lead batteries, since all our batteries in internal combustion cars are lead. The problem with Lithium batteries is that they are too expensive since Lithium is much rarer than lead.

        I will be going to China to get an E-6 for 23 K and ship it to USA, since Tesla cars are too expensive (Roadster over 150K and the new model is about 50K). Check them out, since this is a future for a while, before we develop a conventient car-less system where car will not be a necessity to lead good life. America has to become independent from Arab and Iranian oil and stop burning fossil fuels alltogether. It is DOABLE in a short run too if people are intelligent enough to understand it.

      • DaveH

        That’s why she said “Nazi-like”, mark.
        You have done the typical Liberal Progressive thing of jumping to conclusions.
        Maybe a reading comprehension class would benefit you.

        It doesn’t really matter to the subjects what agenda drives the Tyrant. It’s the Tyrant thing that bothers them.

        It is your comment, mark, which is “utterly ludicrous”.

      • mark

        Well, DaveH, you call President Obama a tyrant, a leader who was legitimately elected twice who works within our Constitutional system (look at all the problems he has had trying to pass legislation with an oppositional Congress which is exactly their right and responsibility to put constraints on the excecutive). This also includes the Supreme Court whose conservative majority defeated the Obama position on Citizens United and a number of other measures. President Obama has never done any of the things that one routinely associates with tyrants throughout history. He has not cancelled elections, outlawed opposition parties, shut down the press and imposed a government-only media. He has not cancelled all jury trials, ended the right of popular assembly, closed down all churches and ended freedom of religion. This is some tyrrany. On January 20, 2017, Obama will step down from office before the next president’s inauguration. Tyrants do none of these things. They never run for a second term because they cancel all elections once they are in power. They close down all opposition press. They outlaw all political parties. They shut down churchs and synagogues. They outlaw the right to assembly. Hitler, Mussolini, Mao, Stalin, Pinochet, Pol Pot, and dozens of others did the vast majority of these things very rapidly, once they came to power. Obama has done none of them. Some tyrant.

      • DaveH

        There goes that reading comprehension thing again, mark.
        mark says — “Well, DaveH, you call President Obama a tyrant”.

        Where did I say anything about Obama, mark?

        Do you Liberal Progressives ever tire of putting words in people’s mouths, mark?

      • larry ryan

        Nazi used to refer to the white supremist Aryan ideology, and in some places is still used that way. Perhaps a new word is needed. One need not be white anymore to embrace a nazi mentality. The nazi mentality is now in all creeds and colors. The Black Panthers are nazis. Any cop regardless of color or religion who worships himself, gun and badge (and you’d better too), frequently called badge heavy, is a nazi. Like I said maybe a new word is needed. Nazi is a mentality, a way of thinking, no longer a single race or philosophy. The Black Panthers would likely resent being called nazis, but that’s just what they are.

      • Nadzieja Batki

        mark, of course O is a TYRANT no matter what you believe.

      • Doubtful Avenger

        Please read Goldberg’s book on the fascism of the left, including both Mussolini and Hitler, before you drag the poor guy down the street any further. You can be an irredeemable statist, and ultimately a fascist, from any side of the spectrum, but it was perfected by leftists. Mussolini’s dad was a socialist leader, as was he until he figured out the value of crony capitalism and aligned the state with the corporatists. If you are going to punk someone for bringing up unrelated issues, at least study the subject first.

    • Deerinwater

      It took over 50 years for motor power personal transportation to take hold when it was not that hard for people to own a horse and avoid all the bother. Traveling 125 miles in a single day was considered making good time and most being happy with just 70.

      It took a solid mount to travel 125 ~

      The storage of electrical current has been a hard nut to crack. But it going to happen.

      U.S., state to fund battery research at Argonne
      Coordinated effort will include universities, private companies
      November 30, 2012|By Julie Wernau, Chicago Tribune reporter

      The U.S. Department of Energy has chosen Argonne National Laboratory, in suburban Lemont, to become America’s capital for battery technology.

      The announcement, to be made Friday, will include building a research facility to coordinate the clout and brainpower of five Department of Energy national laboratories, five universities and four private companies that independently have been working to advance battery technology.
      Funded with $120 million from the DOE and a $35 million commitment from Gov. Pat Quinn, the Joint Center for Energy Storage Research is expected to develop lighter, cheaper batteries for everything from smartphones to electric vehicles that store more power and charge faster.

      Chicago would be the fourth so-called Energy Innovation Hub that the DOE has established since 2010. The concept is modeled after research and development programs that spurred breakthroughs in the past, such as the Manhattan Project, which produced the first atomic bomb.

      Other hubs have been devoted to modeling and simulating nuclear reactors, developing fuels from sunlight, and improving energy efficiency in buildings.

      Like the space race of the 1960s, the U.S. is battling other nations to be at the forefront of a rapidly growing $42 billion worldwide market for rechargeable batteries that’s growing 8.6 percent per year. That number comes from research and consulting firm Frost & Sullivan, which predicts the industry’s growth rate and revenues to double by 2018.

      A breakthrough in battery technology would have major implications for the auto, wind and solar industries. In particular, the wind and solar industries are looking for affordable batteries to store intermittent power so they can provide power even when the wind isn’t blowing or the sun isn’t shining.

      Batteries that store electricity from the electrical grid are also in demand in countries where outages are frequent or in the case of natural disasters that black out cities for days.

      “We’re going to be the center of the universe when it comes to charging batteries and storing energy,” Quinn told the Tribune in an interview Thursday.

      This effort that you scoff today, will be a large part of the next generations future.

      • Gea

        The Chinese chemist who stared BYD some 18 years ago, with $300, after leaving his government job had started producing electric batteries which are the key for usability and rechargeabilkity of the electric car. He apparently had a break through with battery technogy which is much cheaper than lithium batteries used by Tesla Roadster. By 2003, BYD (check them out had been so succesful in batteries sale that they decided to produce electric cars and buses. In 2010 BYD unveiled their electric battery bus that goes 190 miles/charge and the battery recharges in1-2 hours. At that unveiling of electric bus, Bill Gates accompanied Warren Buffet who owns 11% of stocks in BYD.

        In an inteview at BBC with this Chinese dude (who spoke Chinese and not english), he said that his goal is by 2020 to be the biggest producer of the electic cars and buses in the world. America had against made wrong choices when saving the dynosaurs of Detroit rather then investing money in efficient electric car battery technology and retool car companies to go electic and solar and wind. Electric vehicles power by renewable electricity captured in situ is the way to go away from oil and coal and stop buring fossil fues, which finance Islamic terrorism against USA.

        We do not need more fossil fuels burning powerplants but need to harvest solar (both thermal and photovoltiac) and wind energy from our roofs and back yards without having to depend on large energy corporations. Let’s run them out of business and each take care of our own energy needs, both in houses and in transport. WE can do it, if we stop lying around and bitching ;-)!

    • Ice9

      Good points on Islam. But solar panels along train tracks in the city won’t work due to graffiti and vandalism.


      You forgot to mention the cost of having to install DOT acceptable bumpers, and the cost of mandatory airbags. You can probably get all this done for just under $15,000.

    • mark

      Dear Gea, your claim that President Obama is a jihadist allied with Al Qaeda and the Muslim Brotherhood is particularly hilarious today. Because in the other featured article in Liberty Digest today entitled: “Peace Prize President Prepares For All-Out Drone Assaults,” author Sam Rolley condemns Obama for killing hundreds of jihadist extremists in Afghanistan and Pakistan using predator drones. This is a strange policy for a jihadist U.S. President killing scores of jihadists on a daily basis! But then again according to you, black President Obama is a white supremacist Nazi. Do you write comedy for the late night talk shows?

      • larry ryan

        Consider it maybe a bit far fetched that Obama is an Al Qeda plant, or Muslim or any of that other conspiracy stuff. But his use of drones and choice of targets isn’t an arguement against it. In Islam, the individual is expendale.

  • Rob

    Electric cars what a great idea if practical. Where does all of the electric come from to recharge these cars is it free,coal,hydro plants,nuclear and least feasible wind power that will never re-cope there cost to manufacture and maintain in there lifetimeWho brainstorm is that? Look at the figures of construction and maintenance of one of those wind generators and see how much they generate you will see no profit at all.

    • Flashy

      I guess that’s why the fight is on in the PacNW . BPA is trying to charge a ‘fee’ because wind generation is building to where the lines can’t handle the load when the dams are 75% generation capacity. .

      Wind must be very unprofitable. Stupid investors…..building more and more capacity and losing money on the deals.

      BTW…check out the home units. Combine wind and solar and a home can be darn near grid free. With the regs mandating the utility buy any excess production from home generation, the utilities are screaming about the increasing amounts they have to purchase from homes.

      Dang…who’d have thunk all those folks would be rushing to lose money ?

      • DaveH

        Do you have any references to back up your conjecture, Flashshill?

      • DaveH

        While we’re waiting for Flashshill’s typical equivocal response, the readers can learn something here:

      • DaveH

        For those who want to get deeply into it (no, I don’t mean that which Flashshill spews which you need boots for):

      • Gea

        It is dumb to have LARGE electric power plants of any kinds, and grid will soon become obsolete as more and more people are living off the gird and harvesting their own energy on their roofs. When harvesting of geothermal, solar and wind energy and water from our roofs and back yards is combined with storing energy in cheap batteries for times when there is no light or no wind and water in containers, we can kiss all those grids good bye. Grids are not only unreliable in bad weather but also lose energy in transmission. If hurricane Sandy hit my house, it could blow away some solar panels and wind mills but I could fix it myself, rather than waiting for Duke energy or some other mamouth electricity and gas corporation!

        Then everybody will live without energy and water expenses and have more time for bitching about politics ;-)! It is doable without much inverstment, since we can combine ancient with the modern and make it work for US rather then waiting for government for ANYTHING. Make it simple and stop thinking in a conventional box of neysayers. Screw Obama!

  • nc

    Leave it to man whose short version bio includes the word “OIL” TWICE to write an objective article on electric cars! Faux noise Livingston style!
    Wind towers ‘SCAR’ the landscape but oil rigs and pumps don’t? JUST ASKING!

    • Bill

      An oil “rig” is there for 30 days or so. And pumpjacks are usually only 20-30 feet tall, not the 200-300 feet of a bird slicing windmill. So the “scars” are very different.
      But tell you what – if YOU get windfarms to be subject to the same bird killing fines that an oil well is, then you can continue your point. Otherwise, your points are based on a very uneven playing field – because an oil well kills a migrating bird – $10,000 fine is typical. Windmills chop them up by the hundreds, yet are exempt. Are dead birds not still dead?
      So be consistent, or be a Democrat. You chose.

      • NC

        Bill. I will be consistent! Oil pumps are consistently ugly! You can’t put lipstick on a 30 foot pig! How many are there in the USA? I see those Okla. and Texas commercials every day that say, ” Come see our beautiful pump jacks.” Don’t you?

      • Mikey

        Bill, bird mortality is actually pretty low at wind farms. Only those located in migratory paths kill any, and it’s usually less than a hundred a year. I’ve seen the studies, I work for a wind company.
        There is, however a problem with bat mortality. Bat’s sonar often cannot detect a fast moving wind turbine blade in time.
        You will notice that all the newer turbines are much larger, therefore don’t have to spin quite as fast. This reduces flying animal mortality a bit.
        And, far more animals are killed by motor vehicles every year than wind farms.

      • DaveH

        The only thing consistent about you, NC, is that you stick up for your gang no matter how inconsistent they are.

      • Robert Smith

        Bill says: “not the 200-300 feet of a bird slicing windmill. ”

        ROFL… My office is in a 20 story high rise. I’ve been here for over 10 years and I’ve not seen or heard of a bird strike.

        I also spend a lot of time near half a dozen towers for broadcast, some over 500 feet. Not once have I or any of my fellows seen a bird hit any of them or seen a dead bird on the ground.

        However, once in Springfield, MA, a falcon did hit a clear bus stop shelter as it was diving for a pidgin for lunch. That bird died and the pidgin lived to maybe be lunch for something else another day. Do you want to outlaw bus shelters? After all, there sure are a lot of them.


      • DaveH

        Your anecdotal story is proof, Robert? Maybe for a Liberal Progressive. But for those who have more open minds:

      • Flashy

        Davey boy…care to share any numbers about the numbers of wildlife and human life killed by pollutants from coal fired plants? you want to tar down the ind industry, how about sharing the numbers so everyone can look over the comparisons?

      • DaveH

        There goes Flashshill off on one of his non sequitur tangents.

      • DaveH

        We will wait anxiously for your fabricated facts on that, Flashshill.
        Meanwhile, how about another sniper story?

      • DaveH

        “”How many dead birds equal a dead fish equal an oil spill?” Ten thousand cumulative bird deaths from 1,731 MW of installed U.S. capacity are the equivalent of 4.4 million bird deaths across the entire capacity of the U.S. electricity market (approximately 770 GW). A 20 percent share of U.S. capacity, a figure that the American Wind Energy Association forwarded some years ago in congressional hearings (see above), would equate to 880,000 cumulative bird deaths. Calculated on an average operating capacity basis, the number would rise severalfold. Not every potential wind farm would be an Altamont Pass, which was sited to be near existing transmission systems with little thought to bird activity, but the mortality-per-megawatt ratio of existing capacity should give pause”.

        From “Renewable Energy: Not Cheap, Not “Green””.

    • mark

      Exactly, nc. Myers is a shill for the oil industry and guess what? Surprise! Suprise! He doesn’t like electric cars. What a revelation!

      • Bill

        Again, there is nothing to stop some companies from making electric cars. Just have them financed by the privarte sector and let the free market prevail

      • Robert Smith

        So Bill, why don’t you make as much noise about ending the oil subsidies and tax breaks for them?


      • Bill

        I am a libertarian. I am for stopping ALL subsidies and let the free market prevail. That is a hard concept for you socialists to perceive

    • DaveH

      Yes, NC, wind generators scar the landscape. So do oil rigs. But why aren’t the Greens railing about the blight of the wind generators like they do the oil rigs? Do the Liberal Progressives have a double standard? Of course they do. The only consistency they show is their desire to Force their way on other people and helping themselves to other peoples’ money.

      Edward Scissorhands would be in love with them.

    • Gea

      Wind towers and large solar panel fields are ugly and damaging to environment, just as fracking , tar sand sites and oil and gas rigs are. However, nicely designed solar panels, roof water heaters and small vertical ribbon like windmills on your roofs will not damage environment or cause esthetic blight of US neighborhoods.

      Small and diffuse is the way to go and everybody will become their won master of their own energy harvesting and water free of charge falling from the skies. I am already doing it and all I need is an E-6 with solar panel on the roof. I would like to produce those babies in US, so that we do not have to go to China , which is destroying their environment in order to improve their GNP. They are great, except that they can’t breathe the air and cant fish in dead polluted waters. US can be much smarter than that ;-)!

      Let bury all fossils back into a ground of history, including Islamic ideology which is promoted by the Saudis and Iranians with the US oil money and promoting Islamic terrorism against OUR Western civilization while claiming supremacy of their pedophile, polygamist, rapist and murderer, Mohamed. Stop oil and stop Islam taking over US, because of politically correct fools like Obama, who bowed to Saudi king, whose subjects committed crimes of 9/11 while chanting Allahu Akbar. ;-)!


      Why have the uber liberal Kennedys fought letting wind farms be built off the coast of Massachusetts?

    • Doubtful Avenger

      Gea and others. Sounds great! Just go to solar power. To just make enough of it to meet the energy needs of 2030, we have to cover 600,000 sq kilometers with solar panels. And then the sun don’t shine! Oh, darn. It is fine to support and work to create a better source, but you are 100+ years from replacing the grid and gas/nuclear/fossil-based energy production, so don’t be a goofball about the reality we face. And don’t make me pay taxes to support such whimsical ideas.

      • Nick Czudy

        Avenger, It will not be 100 years for electric technology to come to maturity. To get there first with good science takes money and research. That costs money. But I would rather the USA invent the new technology instead of China or Russia or any other country. The USA will reap the benefits of being the one that invents it first.

  • Jim B

    Live in Buffalo, it’s too cold so forget about it as a daily driver. Aside from the fact that we have Niagara Falls creating a gazillion watts of power, our residential electric bills are some of the highest in the nation…. as is our taxes, so forget about charging that EC battery for less than a gallon of gas (even with our gas prices being nearly 50 cents higher than the rest of the nations). Meanwhile, back at the ranch, Governor Como and his minions are working hard on gun restrictions (a complete misdirection play), and new gun laws (bucking for President in a few more years),i.e. the dismantling of the second amendment, so as to strip the citizens ability to defend themselves against…. him! The world is getting crapy’er and crapy’er and our so called leaders are imbeciles , put in office by serfs and zombie Americans and non-Americans, it’s really starting suck eggs.

    • Gea

      The E-6 and electric bus from BYD ( recharges in 1-2 hours and if one installs solar panels on hub and roof, one can keep recharging continuoisly during the day light. As for Buffalo, they do have their hydroelectric power, which could recharge his car battery without producing CO2 emissions…Buffalo also has lots of wind that could be tapped in his back yard and stored in his electric car battery during the night….It is just a matter of thinking out of the box and willing to experiment with diffeernt technologies.

      2 years ago I test drove Tesla Roadster in Palo Alto. It was fabulous, everything except the price which is over 150K. However, they had recently come up with a sedan that is less than 50K and apparently fabulous as far as driving goes….they may beat Chinese if they play their cares right…their CEO is a bit of en egomaniac who also want US sustainble. However those guys think of large electric power plants, while soilution is in millions of small harvesting “power plants” at our homes, aways from the grids.

      For long distance we should not have to drive ourselves and for daily commutes we could have frequent and electric buses, and use OUR electric cars on weekend just for fun!

      • Bill

        Speaking of “Off the Grid”, George Bush’s ranch in Texas is totally off the grid while Al Gore lives in a big mansion that has a large carbon footprint. He also flies around in his jet, using all of that jet fuel.

  • Larry the King

    I believe Teslas top car model has a range of over 300 miles but the car is very expensive. But i disagree with those whose reasons for not owning a electric car now or in the future.I’m sure horse breeders and manufacturers of buggy whips and buggies were saying basically the same thing about the horseless carriage back when.

    • Nadzieja Batki

      But we are no longer under the influence of Tesla’s brain so any creation of an electric car is worthless, but what does it matter if noone will be going anywhere.

      • Gea

        Nikola Tesla was from my old country, Croatia. He was a true genius who invented many things that others claimed as theirs. His alternate current generation won over the Edison direct current (DC), but it enabled large power plants creation because opf easy transmission of alternate currents (AC), which had now become obsolete with new technologies that can enable individuals to take care of their OWN energy needs (both at home and in transport) rather then having to purchase electricity, gas or gasoline from grigs.

        Tesla also worked on the wireless both low and high energy transfmission and did some experiements that scared the authorities. His discoveries are still beeing studied by technology fans all over the world. The Chinese dude, who started BYD, may have similar genius with his break trhrough cheap battery creation based on some lead compound, rather then lithium as Tesla Motors ‘s is. However, if we can figure out how to derive electricity directly from air, rather then having wind and solar capturing devices, we may bury fossil corporation for good and live happily ever after with each taking care of our own energy and water needs ;-)!

        Just get off your duff and dare to dream and think outside the box, as NIcola Tesla, my landsman did ;-)! Lets go into the 21st century and stop using 19/20ies centuries technologies that had served its purpose but are now obsolete, just as Nazism and Marxism (and soon to be Islam) are, unsuitable for human consumption of FREE human beings not enslaved by ideology or technology.

    • Flashy

      Tesla’s are about 50 grand. Not counting the tax incentives. The Model S is sold out and you have to reserve one.

      Those puppies zip! I haven’t driven a roadster, but from everything i have heard, they are very comparable to a gas powered sports car.

      • Mikey

        0 to 60 in 3.2 seconds!

      • Bill

        Put your money where your mouth is and buy one

      • Flashy

        Bill…why do you think i was in a showroom? Jeesh …. forward thinking is not one of your talents eh?

      • Nadzieja Batki

        Flashy, you can be in the showroom for any number of reasons. Did you buy the electric vehicle? I doubt it.

      • Bill

        If you believe in the Tesla’s, invest in their stock

  • Gary

    I think the Obama administrations use of government power to push electric cars on the american public gos right along with Homeland Secuities plan to forbid americans to travel outside of their home areas. It will be increasing difficult to travel if your car is limited to say a 60 mile range {30 mile radius} Electric cars and trucks were somewhat popular in the early 20th century and they were universaly known as homing pigeons. When the government has us all corraled like sheep and we can’t escape they will then began to slaughter us like sheep in the pen.

  • Flashy

    ” Never mind that GOP Presidential Nominee Mitt Romney said it was money wasted on “losers.” ”

    Mr. Myers, please call your fellow contributor Mr. Root and ask him who won the election. Ol’ Mitt has been in 35 competitive elections over the last 18 years. He has a losing record, 14-21. Last I heard, he was spanked BIG TIME in the last election. Of course, if one spent any time, with Mitt flip flopping more than a gaffed salmon on deck, one would find where he praised alternative energies and electric cars. you use Mitt as a definitive authority?

    ” “The perceived drawbacks of electric vehicles outweigh the advantages for most consumers,” the study said.” Perceived is correct. It’s a not unknown story that Harley Davidson sued the Japanese motorcycle industry when Suzuki, Yamaha and Honda began wrenching the motors to sound like a HD. The bikes were comparable (fact is, Harley’s ain’t what their all made out to be), and sales which were flat went up significantly when the sound was tweaked. Why? because of consumer ‘perception”. Now after the consumer has had a chance to take in the new bikes? HDs are used by old biker wannabes…those going for performance don’t worry about the sound.

    If one were to go to a Tesla showroom, they have amazing cars. Nicely styled and their technology is far and away impressive. The one drawback is the six hour recharge. Currently, the move is to tweak the cars to allow a quick “in and out” pack of batteries so a switch can be made at stations. Still in infancy, the day of the electric car…even as a hybred, looks to have arrived. Here where i live, almost all malls and throughout the city there are parking areas with charging outlets … and few are vacant.

    Who here has gone and taken a good look at the Tesla/ Or any other electric or hybrid car for that matter? Myers talks of the Electron. i.e. trying to compare an Edsel with a modern day Lexus or Jeep. Countig on the extremist tendency to not think.

    your selective use of numbers is typical for oil men. Heaven forbid the stranglehold of oil on our economy is weakened eh? use fear, anger, ignorance and disdain for a strong viable solid future to play the TP extremist crowd with.

    Fact: Comparing monthly electrical output in 2008 versus 2012, solar has expanded by 285.19%, wind by 171.72%, and geothermal by 13.53%.

    Fact: renewable energy projects accounted for more than 38% of new electrical generation capacity

    Fact: New renewable energy electrical generating capacity was more than double that of coal (2 new units totaling 1,608 MW). No new nuclear capacity came on line during the first half of 2012. However, 40 new natural gas units came on line with 3,708 MW of capacity (42% of the total). Renewable energy sources now account for 14.76% of total installed operating generating capacity…note this does not include hydro.

    The use of coal is dropping…not as a result of regulations, but because alternative and natural gas offer more bang for the buck. And most coal plants these days are old, outmoded and inefficient. Why invest in antiquated technology ?

    Take away the subsidies and alternative energy is almost even up in generating costs of oil and coal, and cheaper energy for powering travel.

    One item the pro-keep outmoded and old energy technology folks won’t mention is the freedom alternative energy promises. Freedom from the Middle East, freedom from an oligarchy of corporations, and freedom from being tied to utilities. They don’t want you to support alternative energy. They do not want you off the grid and away from being tied to gas stations. They do not want you to be untied and free from their clutches and bills.

    Follow the money. Then re-read Myers article in a new realization. He calls for continued slavery to the oligarchy, not for a better future.

    • John Myers

      I have to give you credit. Still don’t agree on most of your points but you did a thoughtful job in making them.

      • Bill

        You are showing your class, John

      • Flashy

        Mr. Myers…compliments are returned. you most likely read a few past posts in other articles about how i appreciated your articles ( they remarked that though the last few were high standard, low standards by the bar you set in the past).

        Like you, I may not agree with your writing, but I do find your articles interesting.

    • TML

      Flashy says “The one drawback is the six hour recharge. Currently, the move is to tweak the cars to allow a quick “in and out” pack of batteries so a switch can be made at stations. Still in infancy, the day of the electric car…even as a hybred, looks to have arrived. Here where i live, almost all malls and throughout the city there are parking areas with charging outlets … and few are vacant.”

      Strictly speaking as a consumer, that seems like a very significant drawback… enough to make me not want to buy one. Even the idea of having to switch out batteries after every one-way trip is simply bogus.

      Flashy says “Heaven forbid the stranglehold of oil on our economy is weakened eh?”
      The use of coal is dropping…not as a result of regulations, but because alternative and natural gas offer more bang for the buck. And most coal plants these days are old, outmoded and inefficient. Why invest in antiquated technology ?
      One item the pro-keep outmoded and old energy technology folks won’t mention is the freedom alternative energy promises. Freedom from the Middle East, freedom from an oligarchy of corporations, and freedom from being tied to utilities. They don’t want you to support alternative energy. They do not want you off the grid and away from being tied to gas stations. They do not want you to be untied and free from their clutches and bills.”

      The problem is when the government steps into the commercial arena and forces products upon the citizenry using tax payer money. It is good to develop alternative energy, but to have government stifle one to make a market for the other just isn’t the right way to do it. Is that not also an oligarchy of corporations? I have a hard time believing that the use of coal has dropped for any other reason than restrictive regulations, and as you point out, restrictive oil use is sometimes seen as being freed from the clutches of the Middle East. In commerce, products should, and will, only excel based on their own merit to the consumer. Anything else is just as bad as what you say it would free us from.

      And I would re-examine your last couple of sentences, as I’ve seen this website promote of alternative energy sources for home use as part of what is called “preppers” these days. Truth be told, unless you are 100% self-sufficient, you will always, in one way or another, be in the ‘clutches’ of one merchant or another. It seems you also are guilty of the so-called TP Trilogy. ;)

      • Flashy

        “The problem is when the government steps into the commercial arena and forces products upon the citizenry using tax payer money. It is good to develop alternative energy, but to have government stifle one to make a market for the other just isn’t the right way to do it. Is that not also an oligarchy of corporations? I have a hard time believing that the use of coal has dropped for any other reason than restrictive regulations, and as you point out, restrictive oil use is sometimes seen as being freed from the clutches of the Middle East. In commerce, products should, and will, only excel based on their own merit to the consumer. Anything else is just as bad as what you say it would free us from. ” TML

        TML, the modern state we enjoy today, which has its beginnings during the Civil War, has by subsidy or tax policy moved industry into areas which are viewed as preferable for a modern society but not be able to stand the rigors of a for profit motivated corporation. For instance, the railroads during the 1860-s-1880s. They were financed by land grants to the railroads. Another would be electricity where the government was able to use eminent domain for right of ways for transmission lines. Roads for the automobile is yet another i the long list

        Think of the Internet. Developed and initially laid out by the government, not until it became feasible to broadcast to large numbers was the internet focused by private industry.

        think of the space program. etc etc

        By use of the tax code, long term investment is encouraged using capital gains. Oil has subsidies and tax code preferential treatment big time. In agriculture, we direct crop rotation and plantings. Giving tax breaks to new alternative energy companies, or via grants and loans…is nothing new as far as role of government. Private industry would not move quickly given the complexity of today’s environment. And any investment without direction would be ad hoc, willy nilly, and not as smooth a transition as would be if government doesn’t pre-pave a path

        In the President’s Alternative Energy Program, it’s not government directly entering the market. Government is saying in these areas….we will help in R&D and getting started.

        As for coal….think about it. Most coal plants are old, ancient, and coming up to the end of profitable lifespan. Most are major sources of pollution. Any new plant has to come to air pollution emission standards. Mining coal strips mountain tops. It is not a ‘clean’ substance to mine. Add in the cost of labor (training, health, etc) and mine safety. Now toss in the distribution of huge amounts of coal. railroads, bins, etc.

        match all that with natural gas..the price of which has plummeted the past few years. Match that with wind. etc. In almost every instance, coal comes out second. Regulations are not killing coal. Natural gas and the lower priced alternatives are killing coal. politically, it’s convenient for the anti Obama forces to fudge reality and make it appear regulations are the issues with declining coal demand. When it’s the market..and the market alone, that’s pushing coal aside.

    • Bill

      Again, Flashy
      Put your money where your mouth is and start investing in the stocks of companies that produce electric cars.

    • DaveH

      Flashman says — “Fact: renewable energy projects accounted for more than 38% of new electrical generation capacity”.
      Typical Flashman equivocation — “38% of NEW electrical generation capacity”.
      Is that any wonder to those who know the inclination of Big Government to favor pie-in-the-sky schemes that the hapless taxpayers must pay for?
      Most likely, he wanted the readers to interpret it as “renewable” energy accounted for 38% of our current electrical generation. It doesn’t come close.

      The actual percentage of electrical energy currently produced by “renewable” energy is about 14%:

      Since Electrical Generation Capacity is growing by about 1% per year, next years portion of “renewable” energy would still be less than 15%.

      • Flashy

        Davey boy…call it whatever hyped lie you want…I stated ‘new”.

        You fudge the numbers…well known for it as a matter of fact. I highly doubt you could pass any analytics course, and your apparent ability to analyze and look at causation and effect long term is non-existent.

        We know you are anti American and support secession by your state. We know you haven’t a clue as to modern state economics. We know you hype an economic theory which hasn’t one instance of being established, much less workable…anywhere, anytime. And we know you don’t read the vast majority of what you link and attempt to show you have.

        Go sit in the corner. that’s your assigned seat.

      • DaveH

        Hang on a minute, Flashshill, I’m looking for my hip-waders.
        Flashshill says — “You fudge the numbers…well known for it as a matter of fact”.

        Then you should have no trouble proving your lying slander, Flashshill.
        The regular readers know that you have no credibility, Flashshill, and unlike your lying slander, I can prove it.

        Ask me to prove it, Flashshill.

      • DaveH

        Flashshill says — “We know you haven’t a clue as to modern state economics”.
        You must have meant “modern statist economics”, Flashshill.
        And you’re correct about that. I have no desire to deal with the Court Economics that you and your handlers promote so that ignorant people have no idea why they’re getting poorer while the statists and their Crony Capitalists take advantage of them.

        It must really gnaw at you Flashshill that I regularly expose your lies, equivocations, and otherwise ignorant statements. But, you’ll just have to learn to live with it.

    • Meteorlady

      So in Texas we buy power on the open market. We are able to see what % of power is generated from what source. Natural Gas is the cheapest. Solar? the MOST EXPENSIVE. Wind is even less and I purchase a plan that has natural gas, nuclear and wind which puts me at the lower end of the cost spectrum though not at the bottom.

      I also just replace 6 batteries in one of my golf carts, after only 5 years of use. The cost? $1,011. Not very cost effective and I did check emissions and they are high. Next cart will be gas because I don’t believe that we dump all that toxic waste on the environment.

  • Bill

    Electric cars and hybrids emit very high amounts of emf waves when you drive. Just get am emf tester and try it. If you are concerned about your health, don’t buy one of these

  • Jim B

    You but a Capstone Micro Turbine in any roadster and you have the best of both world, electric, and traditional fuel usage. Best thing, the turbines charges and runs the electric components so the speed and power is incredible. When traditional fuel, NG, or Gasoline is needed it’s sipped at a 90 miles/gallon ratio while it’s still charging the system. Game changer if any big VC or big 6 pick up on it.

  • Rob

    I was glad to read your FACTS on energy and %.Now how about the production cost of the wind generator and how many kilowatts it will Purdue in it life time there not feasible someone is doing a lot of subsidizing here. I do think Electric cars have a future here less maintenance no oil changes no clutches no plugs just hub motors and battery’s. But when you continue to recharge battery’s what about the fumes from charging the battery every day in your garage just another questions to consider when more people go electric.

    • Mikey

      Wind energy production is about $0.03 a kilowatt hour nowadays, competitive with natural gas powered electricity. This includes the price of the turbine and installation. The units I build have a 20 year warranty, so that gives you an idea of the potential life span of one. Once erected, maintenance is rather low, less than an automobile.
      As far as batteries go, EV’s use sealed batteries, no fumes when charging. My EV has lead acid batteries, but I intentionally selected sealed AGM type for that very reason.

  • cerebus23

    how about we talk about the toxic nature of car batteries? how about we talk about how that studd is shipped around the world to make batteries? and how about we talk about disposing of all the toxic sludge inside those batteries? or we can talk about the mines where they get the stuff for those batteries and strip mining and pollution run off.

    battery tech is about as green as lighting cfc laden styrofoam on fire.

    it is still far far cheaper to drill, transport, distribute and burn gasoline in pure carbon units than any other “green” energy. so exactly how are these energies green? other than people are making loads of cash on green industries since al gore, and where all the outrage on his ties to green industry are every bit as dirty or more dirty than bush family and cos ties to oil.

    to be sure oil will not always be around, and it sure will be around alot less if we will not allow drilling anywhere. so we should be investing in RESEARCH in hydrogen, biofuels, and battery power over the next 10 to 20 YEARS. not rush them to market and force their use when it is far less efficient than gasoline, and far far more expensive than gasoline. and we damn well ought to be letting states and local areas decide if they want drilling,

    get the feds out of the [expletive deleted] thing they are fluffing industries that are the darling of their favorite sons of the left, while trying to destroy oil, tobbacco, and coffee i am sure given time. but out of the media all we hear is the big oil, this and big oil that, where?! government will not let oil companies drill over here, they will not allow new pipelines to be built, they will not allow known and viable deposits to be explored, where is big oil getting so many breaks exactly over here?

    look at the converse side and al gore making money hand over fist in carbon offsets, and green industries all over the place. forcing his business upon all of us, even if it is a total lie, and the science is anything but settled as to that question no matter what al sells you.

    and if the earth is warming on its own? well no amount of carbon units will change nature its only been dong this stuff to 100s of millions of years getting very very very hot, then getting icy cold, all without us around to dump cfc, and hydrocarbons, or cow farts into the air.

  • gunner

    Small electric cars may work in urban areas but the big question is how are we going to fund infrastructure projects (roads, bridges, highways, etc) in light of electric vehicles? Presently these projects are paid for with gas tax revenue which will be drastically reduced by electric vehicles, hybrid vehicles and increased mileage requirements. Oh, I know – tax the evil, oppressive rich people.

    • Flashy

      Gunner. good point. One which is receiving considerable attention in my state. it’s akin to what occurred as cell phones and wireless replaced landlines. In my city, over 50% are wireless using no land lines.

      Some of the suggested ways is to add in a mileage fee, taken each year when registration and tags are renewed. there was a proposal for toll roads..but that was shot down almost immediately as we don’t have any in this state as it is.

      Aye, I agree with your observation. It’s a dilemma which needs a solution.

  • The Christian American

    Can you tell me where in the Constitution where a President / Tyrant has the right to design our light bulbs, automobiles, electric gadgets, foods, clothing, businesses and everything else you can think of, to the extent that he can fund his pet businesses and things with the people’s wealth? His cars are not worthy of comment because there his cars, not the people’s. I’m beginning to see how the Communist took over Russia. The people handed it to them by letting the communist take care of them from a miserable existence to the cradle to the grave. As children we should obey loving parents, but as adults? Are the American people adults, responsible for their own decisions? The only power Satan has over a person is the power of persuasion and DC wants to persuade us they have all the decisions we should make for ourselves. Now more than ever It’s time to reard John 3:16 and other passages in the book of life.

  • r b

    we use a variety of energy sources to power the world. and will need even more in the future. it is amusing that the only argument the oil based energy supporters can use to defend their stance against developing alternate sources of energy is to complain about subsidizing the development. considering the amount of tax dollars that have been and are still being used to subsidize oil and gas.

    • 45caliber

      r b:

      The real problem is not subsidising the development of alternate fuels. There are two problems. The first problem is how does the government tax them? The second problem is the cost for the energy. Alternate fuels are available but they are either almost impossible to tax or cost several times as much for the same use. For instance, ethanol used in cars cost more fuel to create than the power it provides. Subsidies simply hide that fact.

  • dv

    Spoken like a true talking head for the oil industry.
    Forgot to mention that electricy is 30 cents per equavilent gallon. Hmm competition?

  • Capitalist at Birth

    Quite a few brainwashed and ignorant people on this site today. I don’t have time to waste trying to educate them that, if an all electric car was practical it would have been invented and invested in years ago. It is not and never will be. It is a waste of time to invest a dime in. If you choose to so, do so at your peril, and not mine. Thank you. Good Day

    • Meteorlady

      So T. Boone Pickens has advocated for natural gas for a few years now. His statement is that if we converted to natural gas for engines we could be off foreign oil imports within 10 years. There is an abundance of this resource, it’s clean and why not?

      So last year Walmart made this statement: “In partnership with truck and component manufacturers, we have built a number of prototype tractors, including hybrid assist, wheel-end hybrid assist, full propulsion hybrid, and natural gas, with the goal of learning from testing in a real-life environment to improve the technology.”

      So with that in mind, the trucking industry went to the DOE and asked for subsidies to build natural gas refueling station along major interstate truck routes. They were turned down.

      • Flashy

        meteorlady..I’ve looked and can’t find any reference to the DOE decision. have you a source I can begin to research?

      • 45caliber

        Flashy. It was either T.Boone Pickens or the guy who threw the election to Clinton when he ran as a third party candidate for President who tried this. That should give you a start.

        The reason it was turned down was due to taxes. They couldn’t tax natural gas at fuel tax levels since people would fill up at home and didn’t dare try to tax all of it at that level since people in the North would have linched them.

    • Right Brain Thinker

      Imbecile at Birth says: “Quite a few brainwashed and ignorant people on this site today. Thank you. Good Day”

      I hate to say it but you’re right. I’m leaving soon as well. DaveH and friends have succeeded in destroying this discussion quite rapidly today, and it has ceased to be worthwhile. I will make a final comment at the end at the thread. It seems that my comment on Tesla shut that foolishness down—-maybe a final call for a “wakeup”.will help us get on a “tangent” that DaveH can’t pollute.

      • Bob Livingston

        Dear Right Brain Thinker,

        You write: “Imbecile at Birth says: …” Is it possible for you to begin a comment without an ad hominem? If so, please demonstrate.

        Best wishes,

      • DaveH

        RBT’s footprint on your server would be small indeed, Bob, if he quit his ad hominem attacks.

      • Right Brain Thinker

        Bob, Thank you for noticing that I am alive and well and making contributions to the dialogue on PLD.

        Of COURSE it is possible for me to begin a comment without an “ad hominem” and demonstrate that for you. It’s quite easy, in fact, since I am not beginning this comment with an “ad hominem”—-demonstration is now over—-next question?

        Since I have have begun very few of my comments on PLD with an “ad hominem”, I’m actually a bit puzzled as to why you would even ask the question of me rather than others who do it all the time. If your implication is that I start most or many of my comments with “ad hominems”, I have to wonder if you really understand the meaning of “ad hominems”. Of course the folks on PLD who ARE guilty of excessive “ad hominems” have perhaps confused you by their constant assertion that what THEY say is not an “ad hominem” but what OTHERS say is, in spite of all logic and evidence to the contrary. Let me “demonstrate” with a comment from this thread:

        “DaveH says:
        January 9, 2013 at 12:23 pm
        As usual, Lizard Brain has nothing to add to the conversation but personal attacks”.

        That’s an ad hominem of the purest kind. And not only does DaveH begin his comment with an “ad hominem” bit of name-calling, that’s ALL the comment IS—one of DaveH’s almost uncountable comments in which he says nothing—-offers no information or arguments, offers no rebuttal to anything—-just attacks, as the definition of “ad hominem” states:

        Ad hominem, adv.
        Arising from or appealing to the emotions and not reason or logic.
        Attacking an opponent’s motives or character rather than the policy or position they maintain.

        When one looks at a discussion of the use of “ad hominems”, one can also discover the following statement. “Ad hominem attacks on one’s opponent are a tried-and-true strategy for people who have a case that is weak”. That fits DaveH and many others on PLD perfectly. My comments are reasoned, logical, and full of arguments. Those who lay the “ad hominems” on me or accuse me of using them are really saying “I don’t like what you say but can’t refute your arguments, so I’ll just call you names or accuse you of calling others names”. Like was said above, “a tried-and-true strategy for people who have a case that is weak”, and no amount of “blathering” is going to change that.

        And I have had a problem all along with the way “ad hominem” has been used on PLD. It’s not a noun as you used it here and the way others have also—-it might be more proper to have said “ad hominem attack”. At any rate, it’s an imprecise term and I joked about that several times way back when. I used to say things like “using them there ad hominems again”, but no one caught the joke. That’s also why I put it in quotation marks when I use it—to qualify its use because of its imprecision.

        I WILL admit to using an occasional “ad hominem” by any definition, almost all in response to DaveH, as when I call him “Eater of Dead Lizard Brains” and joke that he has to eat dead lizard brains because he’s not smart enough to catch a live one, and therefore must eat roadkill. The use of an “ad hominem” in this way is simply saying “back atcha”, and is delivered with a smile.

        Here are a few more “ad hominems” from DaveH on this thread.

        DaveH says:
        January 9, 2013 at 9:13 am
        Do you have any references to back up your conjecture, Flashshill?
        DaveH says:
        January 9, 2013 at 9:17 am
        While we’re waiting for Flashshill’s typical equivocal response, the readers can learn something here:
        DaveH says:
        January 9, 2013 at 9:22 am
        For those who want to get deeply into it (no, I don’t mean that which Flashshill spews which you need boots for):

        Where are the “ad hominems” in DaveH’s words, the confused may ask? The WHOLE string is nothing BUT “as hominems”. Let me point them out:

        Asking for references implies Flash is making things up.
        Using “conjecture” implies Flash’s opinions are not based on evidence.
        The “shill” in “flashshill” is self-evident.
        Using “typical equivocal response” is passing judgment on Flash’s arguments and demeaning them in advance.
        Using “that which flashshill spews” and “need boots for” implies horsepucky.
        And there is the use of the “shill” again

        Quite a lot of “using them there ad hominems again”, don’t you think?

        And before you accuse me of using “horsepucky” (which I do—a lot—in order to avoid the “bad word filters”), please think about the fact that I use it within the context of my long-winded comments and arguments, and I back up my assertions—-that’s not an “ad hominem”, it’s “telling like it is and inviting debate”. That is NOT what DaveH and others on PLD do, although some DO exceed DaveH in their “excesses”. Case in point is what joszsrepublicanpage says:
        January 9, 2013 at 2:54 pm
        “ODUMBA needs to put the plug for his electric car in his anus ,,,,,”

        To get back on point, Bob, it appears that you are asking this question because of my saying “Imbecile at Birth” to CAB. Perhaps you missed the string of comments that led up to that? I refer to:

        Capitalist at Birth says:
        January 9, 2013 at 11:03 am
        Mikey and eddie You are both full of crap.

        Right Brain Thinker says:
        January 9, 2013 at 11:11 am
        EXCELLENT comment, (?) at Birth (I don’t want to insult, so I won’t put in one of the many words that come to mind.
        Mikey and eddie are not full of crap—-they both make some good points and my opinion of Mikey has gone up while my opinion of you has continued its decline.
        “Full of crap”, you say? Lord love a duck, (?)AB. I’d ask you for proof of that but you’d probably say “They have brown eyes”.

        Capitalist at Birth says:
        January 9, 2013 at 11:10 am
        Are you a complete ignoramus? Or just smoking too much reefer this morning?

        Capitalist at Birth says:
        January 9, 2013 at 11:07 am
        Obviously you are a child. Who would use the name Mikey?

        Right Brain Thinker says:
        January 9, 2013 at 12:07 pm
        And it’s always nice to use a gratuitous insult when you’re trying to get people to see your point of view, as in saying to someone, “Obviously you are a child. Who would use the name Mikey”.

        Since that frees me from my earlier statement that I didn’t want to “insult”, I will give you some of the words that we should insert in place of “Capitalist”. How about these? Self-deluded, ignorant, moron, imbecile, or stupid for starters? Although those words are not really insults, just good descriptors of someone who would declare that he was a “Capitalist” from the minute he was born.

        Read the last sentence of my last comment again and look again at CAB’s comments that brought it on. It is self evident that I speak truth there. That also ignores the times CAB has “ad hominemed” me—-can’t recall specifics since I dismiss that stuff from my mind right after reading it, but I kind of remember that there have been more than a few from CAB to me. Is there not such a thing as “turnabout is fair play” on PLD?

        In closing , we must acknowledge what DaveH says as he wags his tail and looks for your approval. Of course in typical “try to turn it 180 degrees” fashion, he speaks from his self-delusion and actually expects anyone to accept that my use of very few of “them there ad hominem thingies” would actually outweigh his overwhelmingly abusive use of same. LOL

        DaveH says: January 9, 2013 at 12:44 pm “RBT’s footprint on your server would be small indeed, Bob, if he quit his ad hominem attacks”.

        Lord love a duck!

  • Chuck S

    Electric cars are more expensive, which usually means that they take more resources to make – including energy. It takes oil to dig the iron, copper, nickle, lithium, etc out of the ground, ship it, refine it, and form it into the motors, batteries, and generators (for hybrids). And then more power plants and transmission lines need to be built, which people generally don’t want. The greenies who want electric carts are generally against power plants. It probably takes more energy to produce and power electric cars than they save.
    I think hybrids sometimes save more than they use, but not always. A person thinking about an electric or hybrid should find out if the particular car, with his driving, and expected gas prices, really will save him money and/or save energy overall. We REALLY need an honest accounting of how much energy we’re really saving or losing.

    As a conservative, I’m for what works – gasoline. I’m for alternative energy if it works, and if it gets little or no government subsidy. Of course, if it really works, it won’t need much subsidy.

    I think government research has a place. Like ARPA-E, which does energy research. Subsidizing and/or mandating huge wind farms that are very expensive and inefficient is too much.

  • Meteorlady

    We live in a community with two golf courses. We have two golf carts. Recently, after only 5 years, we had to replace batteries in one of the carts. $1,011 for six damn batteries. Needless to say, our next carts will be gasoline.

    • gunner

      We have an electric golf cart and love it. Trade it in every 2 years before the battery warranty expires.

  • Paul

    I long for the day when we are no longer dependent on the middle east for oil.

    As long as the government continues to subsidize big oil, other methods of energy never will be ready.

    • Chuck S

      Is it liberal brainwashing that people who don’t like Middle East oil never think of the obvious – more drilling in the US? The Alaskan pipeline will need to be shut down soon because there isn’t enough oil flowing through it. IN the meantime 10 billion or more barrels are collecting dust in nearby ANWR. And there’s a lot more oil elsewhere in the US. Actually, the US is expected to pass Saudi Arabia in oil production in a few years even without ANWR. Unless Obama gets really nasty with restrictions.

      The democrats and some repubs should get “friends of OPEC” awards for opposing a lot of US production.

      • 45caliber


        This should make you happy.

        The US has more KNOWN oil reserves than all the rest of the world put together. I’m sure there are more oil out there but we did more searching here. And we find more all the time.

        Further, the Russians have proved that oil is not a one-time thing and it is gone as we are told here. It is created (according to their research) by pressure from methane gas trapped deep underground. Once a field has been pumped out, if they wait a few years, they can go back and pump again.

    • 45caliber

      Paul: We wont’ be much longer. The Mid East is down to about 10% of what they started with. Besides most of our fuel does NOT come from the Mid East, despite what you hear on the news. It comes primarily from the US, Canada, Mexico, and Venesuailia (can’t spell it). In other words, Chevez. The only oil we get from the Mid East comes from (believe it or not) Iran, our “enemy”. Despite their arguments, they have no intention of cutting us off. They would lose too much money and might not be able to finish their nuclear missiles.

      • Right Brain Thinker

        45 cal is playing with us folks—-he CAN’T be serious. I responded below to his other comments because they seemed to be just showing ignorance of the truth, but this is beyond ignorance.

        “The Mid East is down to about 10% of what they started with”. Untrue, but you could play the numbers game and get away with that for a while.

        “Besides most of our fuel does NOT come from the Mid East, despite what you hear on the news” What “news” are you talking about? Anyone who pays any attention at all knows that we DO get our oil from the US, Canada, Mexico, Venezuela, and Africa.(mainly Nigeria), and not very much comes from the Mid East in comparison.

        I would love to have a “news source” for the statement, “The only oil we get from the Mid East comes from (believe it or not) Iran, our “enemy”. Despite their arguments, they have no intention of cutting us off. They would lose too much money and might not be able to finish their nuclear missiles”.

        As I said, 45 cal HAS to be joking when he says this—-we actually get about 1/8 of our oil from the Mid East, and NONE from Iran—-ZERO!—-NADA! (although it is possible that the greedy rich SOB’s have managed to sneak some in on us—they’re so good at other dirty tricks like cheating on taxes, hiding money overseas, getting government subsidies, etc, that I’m sure they could bring it off)

      • Bill

        That’s how Chavez pays for all of his social programs. You are right Venezuela is sitting on a larger oil field than Saudi Arabia

      • Chuck S

        I recently read that Iran is selling oil – they transfer tanker to tanker in the gulf of Hormuz, so it isn’t obviously from Iran. Oil from Iran is sometimes labeled as “Iraq special blend.”

        Years ago most OPEC countries increased the amount of reserves they said they had, so they have less than claimed. Mexican production is “peaked” – more is available, but they can’t develop it themselves and they don’t want outside help.

        Oil is a world market – any change in supply or demand ripples everywhere. If China is buying from Saudi Arabia, and Saudi Arabia has a shortage, China will try to buy more oil everywhere else in the world, including our 3 biggest suppliers, Canada, Mexico, and Venezuela. That will shorten the supply and increase the price to us.

        I think peak oil to a large extent is government restrictions on drilling getting so bad that the amount we can actually access went down.

        We could get maybe 1 million barrel/day from ANWR for 27 years, which would be very helpful.

      • Right Brain Thinker

        RE: what Chuck S says about Iran. I have no doubt they are sneaking around and circumventing the embargo in any way they can. Just like the Bush Dynasty and friends traded with the Germans, somebody among the “greedy rich” will surely help the Iranians move their oil so they can make a buck off it.

        Chuck, you need to do some studying and learn what the term “peak oil” means.
        There are statistical measures that look into many factors of oil production—-how many dry wells one will have before one strikes oil, how deep the wells must be to strike oil, how much oil a well or field produces and how that declines with time, how “far” we have to go to find oil, etc. There’s a reason we are drilling under the ocean—we’re using up the more easily available oil from under the land. There’s a reason we’re drilling under 5,000 feet of water—-we’re using up the oil under the sea bottom that is only 200 feet down. There’s a “bell curve” to it and all indicators are that we are over the “peak” and on the down slope, hence oil has “peaked”. Do we still have a lot and will it last quite a while? Yes, the question is whether we want to burn it up in our Hummers or save it as a feedstock for synthetics and medicines a few decades or hundreds of years from now? . .
        As far as “We could get maybe 1 million barrel/day from ANWR for 27 years, which would be very helpful”, if you do the arithmetic, i million barrels a day is 365 million barrels a year—–and that is maybe 5% or 6% of what we use in a year. Helpful yes, but IMO, not worth going after, especially if we just cut our consumption by that amount and left the oil there for when we might really need it..

    • Right Brain Thinker

      Is it Koch brothers and fossil fuel special interests brainwashing that causes people like Chuck and 45cal to repeat the horsepucky we see from them here?

      “10 billion or more barrels are collecting dust in the ANWR”? Oh yeah, that’s the answer?—except that the U.S. uses near 7 billion barrels a year and the ANWR is literally that “drop in the bucket” everyone talks about.

      “And there’s a lot more oil elsewhere in the US”—-Really? Where is that? Give us some numbers also if you would. Oil production peaked in the U.S. in 1970 and only the new recovery techniques are making it go “up” for a while now—-it is also more expensive to find and obtain and a lot is not found as “oil” but in oil SHALE. I won’t be able to enjoy CO, MT, and WY as much as I have when they turn those states into a “national sacrifice zone” as they process the shale. But wait! They promise they’ll “restore” it, just like they did with the mountains they’re flattening in WV to get at the last of the coal. I really DO love the flat and barren grasslands they have given us there. But they say that the “restored” land is good for industrial parks, shopping centers, and golf courses. Lord love a duck!

      “Actually, the US is expected to pass Saudi Arabia in oil production in a few years even without ANWR” As I said, the ANWR doesn’t matter much—drop in the bucket—-and has anyone noticed that Shell has screwed up AGAIN and run their arctic ocean drilling rig aground—-just like last year. We will NEVER be able to drill up there like we have in the Gulf of Mexico, and look how well that worked out. And there have been books written about Saudi oil production—I’ve read some—-yes, they’re using it up and have only a few decades before they will have to go back to camel herding and raising dates. All this talk is like two bums arguing over who’s richer based on how many cans and bottles they have scrounged out of dumpsters to turn in for the deposits.

      “Unless Obama gets really nasty with restrictions” Once again the great Satan-Ogre-Dictator O’Bama is brought up. He doesn’t sleep, you know, because he is PERSONALLY doing all these things the the wing-nutters accuse him of. There would have to be TEN O’Bamas working 24/7 to even begin to do the damage that is laid at his feet. (He is not as talented as George W. Bush, who managed to nearly sink the ship all alone—that’s a joke, folks—-we all know that he had Cheney and all the folks working for the plutocracy and corporate oligarchy pulling his strings). The “restrictions” are only the laws being enforced so that the greedy rich don’t totally destroy the planet, and many of them got their beginning with NIxon.

      “The democrats and some repubs should get “friends of OPEC” awards for opposing a lot of US production”. That sounds SOOOOO good to the mindless and self-deluded. .
      Of course, now that we have told some smaller lies and misled folks, we trot out the real whopper for last. Such as, “The US has more KNOWN oil reserves than all the rest of the world put together”. Do tell?—-the liars will get into semantics about the meaning of “known” and “proven” and “recoverable”—perhaps that’s why KNOWN is capitalized here, so that there’s room to squirm out from under “the big whopper”. I don’t usually demand “sources” from folks here but this one screams for someone to say (very loudly) “LYING AND DISTORTED HORSEPUCKY—-SHOW US THE NUMBERS”

      There is some truth to this part—”Further, the Russians have proved that oil is not a one-time thing and it is gone as we are told here. It is created (according to their research) by pressure from methane gas trapped deep underground. Once a field has been pumped out, if they wait a few years, they can go back and pump again” It is true that you CAN go back and profitably revisit some old oil fields. I would however, question the idea that the “new” oil is “created”. It’s more like what happens in your sump pump after it is pumped dry, and is not something to depend on when you’re looking at the time spans we are. (Unless of course, we are like the “greedy rich” who want all the wealth NOW—-do we want to use up all the oil NOW—-as in the next few hundred years? Or do we want to leave some for future generations? (And I’m the one who made the joke about “What have future generations done for us?”, so don’t bother).

      • 45caliber


        “Oh yeah, that’s the answer?—except that the U.S. uses near 7 billion barrels a year and the ANWR is literally that “drop in the bucket” everyone talks about.”

        Ah! I see. Since it doesnt’ solve all our energy problems for the next thousand years, we shouldn’t touch it. Now I can’t call that right brain thinking. I’d call it NO brain thinking.

      • Right Brain Thinker

        45caliber, I hate to pry you out of whatever delusions are driving you here, but you have to step back and look at this with an open mind. I did NOT say that “we shouldn’t touch it because it doesn’t solve our energy problems for the next thousand years”. What I said was more like “it won’t even help much over the next 10 or 20 years, because that’s how long it will last—-why bother?”. Going to the arctic to “mine” the ANWR is really a drop in the bucket and foolish for many reasons, one of them being that we are able to get reasonably cheap oil more easily from Canada and Mexico and Venezuela (and yes, Chavez wants our money—he does need it.

        And why don’t you leave the “no brain thinking” crap out of it? We can talk numbers and “whys” and “why nots”—-name calling is what is really “no brain” because it’s certainly not “thinking”

    • gunner

      At least the oil company subsidies (if there are any) are productive. I’ve never seen a gas station out of fuel in my state. On the other hand, the wind industry subsidies and grants from the Department of Energy have gotten us what? Oh yeah, miniscule wind energy production and millions of taxpayer dollars up in smoke.

  • Charlie R

    Want an electric car ? Then search out TESLA MOTORS ….
    The Fed and the Obama Administration are non-entities in going forward with this concept. Obama and his minions do nothing but continually screw up this country.
    PRIVATE ENTERPRISE trumps government involvement in product development.

    PS: Tesla is an unsung genius. The next time you turn on a light switch, thank Tesla for it was not Westinghouse, GE, Edison or the FED that made it possible.

    • The Christian American

      If I wanted an electric car, I’d go to a car designer, not an evil politician.

      • Charlie R

        CA …. Not sure of your point.
        The Tesla Electric Cars exists. Check out the Tesla Motors Company site for yourself. Given the existence of this product why would you reinvent the wheel ( so to speak) by going to a designer? The TESLA is a battery operated auto, so do not let the Tesla name that is associated with AC current (thats what you have in your home) distort the products operational characteristics.

        The further point was: the Federal Government (especially the Obama admin) is screwed up and is a non-entity compared to the private sector.

  • Eleanor

    Mikey…love your name. My sister could not pronounce Eleanor so she started calling me Nano. I went through high school with this name & am still called that by friends& family. Then for the rest of these people it would be nice to not degrade people but give good honest opinions that we can all look at & make good decisions for ourselves. Whatever happened to us that we spend more time making fun of people or use language that is not useful in any way shape or form. Keep up the good work

    • Nadzieja Batki

      But you didn’t say a thing of value. Babbling nonsense is the best you can do?

      • Right Brain Thinker

        Nadzi, what does it say about YOU when Eleanor, who sounds like a sweet person, opens up and shares a bit of herself with us and is judged in this way? For someone whose name means “hope”, you are pretty nasty.

        And why won’t you answer my question about Melvyn, Michael, and David knowing about what you do in your spare time? I’ve asked several times.

        Eleanor, you ask a good question when you ask “whatever happened to us?” Keep up the good work! (And the one word that answers it best is “greed”).

  • ibcamn

    if Obama wants all this green crap(carbon footprint),then why doesn’t he contribute to his own cause and not take air force one everywhere he goes?stay home once in a while for his vacation!all this back n forth stuff is worse then thousands of Americans can do in a year!but remember people,you voted for him,TWICE,the worst man in history!he(hypocrite) has us pay for what he wastes when it comes to pollution,carbon and energy…(everybody knows the second election was bought rigged or whatever)he’s gonna push this electric crap till the day he dies,the technoligy will never be here in his lifetime!..

    …side note,i think i remember seeing a 8 wheeled electric car in japan once,800 hp,really sharp looking thing,but it had a much longer range than anything GM FORD made,it was a prototype and they were driving it around and having a ball showing it off and saying they were going to able to increase the range in near future,a much longer range,8 electric motors(100hp each)how can they do that and we can’t?

    • 45caliber


      I can’t complain about his vacations. At least when he’s gone he can’t get into more trouble in Washington.

      • Nadzieja Batki

        45caliber, you know that’s not true. That kind of personality causes trouble to happen no matter where they are.

  • 45caliber

    Sometime about 1970, a woman I knew then was asked to test drive an electric car for a private company. She drove a 55 mile paper route through the Arkansas Ozark mountains every day. That was over highway and dirt roads, up and down hills, etc. The car used 6 standard car batteries and had a built-in charger. She would pull the cord from the car and connect it to a 110 volt (then – now 120 v) recepticle in her garage to charge it every night. The company installed a meter on the recepticle to check her energy use (and cost). She was encouraged to drive it for any use she might have for a car. It cost her (then) $12.50 a month to keep it charged and drive it.

    I rode in that car.

    She was required to replace the 6 car batteries once a year. That cost about $300. They were in a tray under the car that could be pulled out. She got the batteries at Wal-Mart. That was her total maintenance expense during the two years she test drove the car. (And now the industry says you must have some sort of lithium battery. At about $5000 a pop.)

    She could easily drive 65 mph (and the car dealers tell you that 45 is their top speed now). She drove one day about 300 miles on a single charge. (Today they tell you it is a 50 mile range.) She made her mail route and then took her husband to Little Rock for a medical examination. She was told it had between 350 and 400 mile range on a charge.

    Recharging the car took 30 minutes. It had good acceleration and only the lettering all over it callng it a test car could identify it differently than others.

    When the company returned to pick up the car to take it back and finish checking it, she wanted to buy it or a brand new one. She was told that this wouldn’t be possible as GM had bought out the company.

    A boy in college took a VW bug and made an electric car from it. He did take out the back seat to install 6 car batteries and a large fly-wheel. As the car slowed down the fly wheel would speed up. When he was stopped and hit the accelerator, the fly wheel would transfer all power to the back tires. He could peel rubber. GM bought him out for $5 million. He retired.

    I know of similiar stories. They all have one thing in common. All were bought out by either a car company in the US (usually GM) or by an oil company (usually Gulf).

    THE TECHNOLOGY TO HAVE GOOD ELECTRIC CARS EXISTS! But all talk about needing more research, etc. All they have to do is build the new electric cars to the test designs that have already been tested.

    But it isn’t done. Why? Money. First, the government taxes fuel. It generates billions a year. But they can’t really tax electric power. It is too easy for an owner to simply connect to an electric recepticle. If they tried to tax electrical power at the same rate, most homeowners couldn’t afford it and would object. Second, the oil companies aren’t interested in electric vehicles. They can’t sell their gasoline in turn. So they don’t use those TESTED designs.

    Oh, how about a “hybrid”? One man then used a riding lawmower engine (2 cycle – about 20 hp) to run a couple of alternators. They in turn charged two standard car batteries that powered an electric dc motor that powered the car itself. He got about 150 miles per gallon on the gas he used. And the best hybrid today gets about 50 mpg.

    Just a few thoughts for today …

    • Karolyn

      Well, of course. It’s the same with the gov. encroaching on natural herbs an supps. never mind cancer cures.

      • Bill

        And your liberal buddies, Diane Feintein and Dick Durbin are both spearheading the laws to initiate codex and deny your right to heal yourself. They are bought and paid for by the drug companies. Orin Hatch and Rand Paul are fighting to protect your rights to use herbs and supplements

        When you learn the truth, you will abandon the liberal mantra

      • Karolyn

        And exactly where did you see me say I support Pelosi and Durbin? Please leave me out of the box you have labeled “liberal” that includes your generalities.

  • http://yahoo John Robb

    I bought a new Oldsmobile Delta 88, 4 dr Sedan, in 1988 that averaged 30 mpg on the highway and traded after 197,000 miles when it was still getting 30 mpg. There are a lot of 5 seater cars today that average 30+ mpg. $20,000 for batteries every 5 years is rather high, but $20,000 of $4.00 gasoline is 5,000 gallons at 30 mpg is 30,000 miles per year for 5 years. Gasoline in Peoria is now $3.10 per gallon. Is there something wrong with the $20,000 for replacement batteries in 5 years?

  • joszsrepublicanpage

    ODUMBA needs to put the plug for his electric car in his anus ,,,,,

    • Karolyn

      Now there’s an intelligent remark!

  • Karolyn

    For those of you pipeline lovers: “Report Eviscerates Industry Claims”

    • DaveH

      “Researchers involved in the independent but government-funded study say the report eviscerates claims by the industry that heightened levels of toxins found in Alberta could be “naturally occurring.””.

      Government-funded study? No conflict of interest there, eh? How can any Government-funded study be “independent”? What a joke.

      • DaveH

        Shouldn’t it be up to Canada to decide if their tar sands are creating hazardous by-products?

      • DaveH

        I like this statement from Karolyn’s article:
        “”(That debate’s) completely over,” John P. Smol, a Queen’s University professor and the study’s lead author, told The Canadian Press. “If there was still a coffin to be nailed, I think this is kind of putting a lot of nails in the coffin.””

        Yep, the debate is over when the Liberal Progressives say it’s over. And if you don’t like it, they have a coffin for you.

      • DaveH

        John P. Smol:
        “Recent projects include studying the long-term effects of lake eutrophication, acidification, contaminant transport, calcium decline, fisheries management, and a large body of work on climate change with a special focus on the Arctic”.
        Oh yeah, “a large body of work on climate change”. And you expect this guy to be unbiased, Karolyn?

        From another article:
        “John’s scientific research output as described above, is prodigious. He has been extremely successful in procuring research grants and is one of the highest funded Canadian researchers by NSERC”.
        What is NSERC? Natural Sciences and Engineering Research Council of Canada, “Canada’s federal funding agency for university-based research”.
        And how does a Professor become “extremely successful in procuring research grants”? By telling them what they want to hear of course.

      • Karolyn

        Well, Dave, that’s what the report’s all about. The Canadian people need to speak their piece. There are two sides to the coin on bot sides of the border and both sides of the issue itself. Those pro and those con both have their biases. Logical.

      • Karolyn

        But I thought the gov. was behind the project and all that money to be had for Canada.

      • Right Brain Thinker

        Buckle your seat belts, folks—you’re in for a ride. Dave, who claims he is not a shill, has gone into a tizzy over Karolyn’s posting of a REAL article with some REAL science.

        Of course, his string of frantic “blow smoke and cloud the issue” comments give us nothing except his usual canned remarks—-he has “cheat sheets” that he refers to and just plucks whatever comment seems to fit and fires it off. Of course, the old and tired “libs-progs” thing must also be thrown in there. I swear, but Dave’s paycheck must depend on how many times he can use each comment from his “things for a shill to say list”

        Pay no attention to him, Karolyn—–that was a good article that speaks truth and Dave can’t refute it—-that’s why he didn’t even try.

      • DaveH

        Government is always behind what will benefit Government most, Karolyn.

        Lizard Brain says — “posting of a REAL article with some REAL science”.
        And you know that how, LB? No Real Scientist would make a claim like — “(That debate’s) completely over”.
        And no Real poster would follow me around, lying and slandering me, LB. It’s rather obvious that you’re the likely candidate for being a shill.
        To call me a shill is as ludicrous as your typical comments, LB. What Special Interest would pay me to shill? Somebody who likes competition in Free Markets with no Government protection? But they’re called Special Interests for a reason — they don’t like the rigors of competition.
        So you make no sense, LB, unless you’re a shill trying to silence those who would expose your masters. But that’s fine, LB. Eventually people will put two and two together and realize that all you Liberal Progressives have the same childish tactics for a reason. And that’s that your agendas aren’t defensible with real facts or logic, so you have no choice but to behave like children.

    • DaveH

      Karolyn’s article says — “polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons, carcinogens that rank among the top 10 hazardous substances on the US Agency for Toxic Substances and Disease Registry— have increased 2.5 to 23 times—to the point that some lakes are as contaminated as urban lakes”.

      SOME lakes are AS contaminated as urban lakes? Hmmm. Isn’t that odd?

      Yet later they say — “The study confirms what activists blocking the proposed Keystone XL Pipeline have long argued, which is that in addition to be toxic to the atmosphere when they are burned, extreme hydrocarbons like tar sands are extremely toxic to the local environment in and around the areas where they are mined”.

      EXTREMELY toxic to the local environment? But they just got through saying that SOME lakes are AS contaminated as URBAN lakes. You know, Urban, those areas where lots of people live. They must be dying off in droves in those EXTREMELY toxic urban areas.

      Only ignorant Liberal Progressives can fall for that kind of obvious manipulation by fear.

      • DaveH

        According to this article (a much less sensational article than Karolyn’s):

        “In the context of massive production – about 1.5-million barrels a day, expected to more than double by 2025 – the PAH levels in the lakes remain relatively low, said Travis Davies, a spokesman for the Canadian Association of Petroleum Producers industry group. “They also suggest more research, and we absolutely back that,” he said”.

        “PAH levels in all six tested lakes were found to have increased, though only in one are contaminants at urban-lake levels. In that lake, seven of 13 PAHs tested are at a level considered to have the potential for “possible” but not “probable” impact. The other five are “generally comparable to other remote lakes and much lower than” urban lakes, the study concludes”.

        And people wonder why I distrust Liberal Progressives?

      • Right Brain Thinker

        Ah, Dave, Dave, Dave. You have in fact proven me correct by ramping up your “tizzy” into a full-fledged “tizzy fit”. And it IS something to see—-whirling and ducking and dodging, blowing out great clouds of smokescreen to obscure the issue, and throwing so much horsepucky against the wall to see if any sticks that the wall would have collapsed if any of it had actually stuck.

        DaveH’s writhing here brings to mind that “mind picture” I have not brought up for a while—-that of the Libertarian vampire as he is splashed with the holy water of truth. Watch him collapse in a smoking heap as the flesh of self-delusion melts from his bones. Just like in the movies.

        Dave, the Eater of Dead Lizard Brain Brains, says, “No Real Scientist would make a claim like — “(That debate’s) completely over”. No, Dave? I think Robert Oppenheimer said something very close to that after the first atom bomb did in fact explode when they pushed the button.

        And Dave tries his patented “try to turn it completely around and throw it back” ploy by saying. “And no Real poster would follow me around, lying and slandering me, LB. It’s rather obvious that you’re the likely candidate for being a shill”, completely oblivious to the fact that everyone knows who the shill is.

        DaveH IS getting worried that you all see that HE is the shill, however, and he lays off the name-calling a bit and tries to make what he thinks is an “intelligent” argument, saying, .”To call me a shill is as ludicrous as your typical comments, LB. What Special Interest would pay me to shill? Somebody who likes competition in Free Markets with no Government protection? But they’re called Special Interests for a reason — they don’t like the rigors of competition. So you make no sense, LB, unless you’re a shill trying to silence those who would expose your masters”.

        Yes, Dave—blah, blah, blah. Eventually people will put two and two together and realize that you employ such childish tactics for a reason—–that your agenda isn’t defensible with real facts or logic, so you have no choice but to behave like a child with your name-calling and spouting of horsepucky. (and your use of “slander” wins the laugh of the day award)

        Dave is reduced to sniping at words when he atttacks Karolyn’s wonderful article and says,
        “SOME lakes are AS contaminated as urban lakes? Hmmm. Isn’t that odd?”, says Dave. He then follows with, “EXTREMELY toxic to the local environment? But they just got through saying that SOME lakes are AS contaminated as URBAN lakes. You know, Urban, those areas where lots of people live. They must be dying off in droves in those EXTREMELY toxic urban areas”.

        Hmmmm. Dave is really grasping at straws here when he has to stoop to the level of attacking individual words. Only ignorant Libertarian shills with no real arguments attempt that kind of obvious manipulation of truth

        OOOOPS—I jumped too soon when I awarded the “laugh of the day” to the the Slanderer-in-Chief Dave for the use of “slander”. It has been surpassed by Dave’s quoting of a spokesman for the Canadian Association of Petroleum Producers industry group. “They also suggest more research, and we absolutely back that,” he said. YES! The old denialist demand for ever “more research” so you can continue to claim the issue is not settled. LOL And this is supposed to be credible coming from the trade group representing the people who are greedily seeking to get rich from digging up the incredibly dirty and nasty stuff called tar sands, which are incredibly nasty and dirty to process to the point of being able to put their “oil” into a pipeline, and are incredibly dirty and nasty to refine once they are piped to a refinery that will turn them into something approaching “real” oil.

        Karolyn’s article tells it like it is—-Dave’s thrashings do not—-that debate is over.

        And people wonder why I return the attacks of the Libertarian shill calling himself DaveH?

      • Right Brain Thinker

        And I’m going to beat the Libertarian shill who call s himself DaveH to the punch and make his reply for him. I am looking down the list of stock phrases and words he uses to find something appropriately mindless and meaningless. Hmmmmm! Ah!—success!

        Dave will say something like, “There you have it, folks! More childish and adolescent ad hominem personal attacks from a Liberal-Progesssive. And you wonder why I never answer Lizard Brain’s comments with real arguments backed by facts and logic? Because I can’t find any that will trump his arguments, so I just name-call and distract”.

        (Maybe I overdid the last part a bit, but even W.A.R. would bet on the first two sentences).

  • Getrightnow

    If the desire to have a good understanding of the reality of the physics, mechanics, and economics were as strong as the desire to have “my” argument prevail, we could make better progress toward good solutions (note plural of “solution”) for our transportation needs. Let us now start trying to pass along real information on the subject.

  • http://BobLivingston Goodsteve

    These politicians need to stick to politics (which they’re usually already showing
    incompentance at to begin with), and leave automotive design to engineers and
    other professionals who have been trained and educated for that purpose, and
    usually have at least some clue of what the hell they’re doing. Many politicians
    can hardly manage a country correctly, as is. Just how are they going to be
    able to conjure up a decent, reliable, automobile?

  • Lou

    Nicola Tesla’s greatest contribution to electric devices was in my opinion his discovery that AC current could be transmitted longer distances than DC. The transformer made this possible, as high voltage translates into low amperage. Check out Ohm’s law for the explanation. AC is not practical for automobiles, and may never be, as some sort of battery is necessary to start the engine. (at this point I am dismissing electric cars as impractical, whether AC or DC) Maybe sometime in the future this will change, but technology advancement in one area invariably causes advances in others, so I hesitate to try and predict the future. The battery, so far, has been the culprit in preventing major electric advancement. Only so much can be accomplished by electronic means, no real work can be done with it.

  • Right Brain Thinker

    While we all mill around here in a very small and rather unimportant corner of the debate, the larger world moves on. There is much interesting news in the Washington Post today.

    1) Wildfires are raging in Australia and the temperature is again reaching record highs there (and they are having a record drought as well). Looks like it may be worse this year than last year “down under”. Gillysroom?—what’s the scoop?
    2) 2012 was the hottest year in the U.S. since they started keeping records over a century ago. Records were “sjhattered”, not just broken. Average temperature in 2012 was 55.3 F, one full degree above the old record and 3.2 degrees above the 20th. century average. U.S. drought is expected to continue.
    3) Colorado snowpack is not looking good—bye, bye, CO River.
    4) The Mississippi River is at such low levels that it may soon become impossible for barge traffic to use it.
    5) Coal is well on its way to surpassing oil as the chief energy source on the planet, and is expected to do so by 2017.
    6) There are nearly 1200 proposed coal plants around the world, 3/4 of them planned for China and India.
    7) The Kyoto protocols called for a 5% reduction from 1990 levels in greenhouse gas emissions by January 1 of 2013. That goal is being achieved in the developed nations but overall global emissions have gone up 54% since 1990.
    8) Idiotic Redskins coach Mike Shanahan is being pilloried for continuing to play his injured star QB, Robert Griffin III, rather than taking him out of the Seahawks game. RG3 will need surgery on his knee, his career may be over at age 22, and the Redskin’s resurgence may be over if that occurs.

    And, unsurprisingly, saving the best for last—-”Key Republicans have indicated that they will FIERCELY oppose any new government regulations to curb greenhouse gas emissions.” No surprise there, since they are bought and paid for stooges for the fossil fuel industry.

  • toosmarttovoteGOP

    So is this going to be anything like how FRWNJs have been claiming that Obama is going to be taking our guns away [crap] that we’ve been being lied to about for four years now? It hasn’t happened. This is also one HUGE maybe/probably-not-but-let’s-stoke-the-fear-mongerers’-fire-and-gin-up-the-idiots ploy?

  • .A “Green” Idea Whose Time Has Come

    Not to worry. I’ve submitted a grant request to the Democrap administration Energy Department for a $100 Billion grant to develop high rise mobile homes with electricity supplied by windmills on top of the 230 story tower, with photovoltaic cells attached to the blades. Hey, another brilliant “green” idea for the Obozo frauds. Not to worry, I’ll have the mobile homes and windmills built in China and shipped over here in sailing ships – no fossil fuel damage there. My early indications are that we can sell a 600 s.f. unit for just under $5 Million a piece.

    • Right Brain Thinker

      Good one, Green—-sign me up.

      Tesla would have loved it and he thought a lot “bigger” than you do. He was going to transmit electricity “wirelessly” using the ionosphere. Easy to do—-put a 50 MILE tall tower on a ship and a 50 MILE tall tower next to a power plant and you have all you need to “send” electricity. Wonder why they called him a wing nut?

      (And think of all the “stimulus” jobs that will be created raising all the highway bridges)

  • http://libertyinvester Bob D.

    The Appleton Post Crescent ran an article last night telling how the city of Appleton,Wi. disabled the hybrid features of their two new buses, bought with stimulus funds because they kept breaking down. The manufacturer would no longer stand behind them because they have gone out of business. What a revelation. I like it when they pound my money down a rat hole.

  • ibcamn

    I ran into Jay Leno once in California on a fundraising motorcycle run and he was telling us he has a late 1890′s electric car(grocery getter)and it charges the exact same way they do now and it get 25 to 28 miles on a charge,the same as today!!they gave up back then because lack of technowladgy.over a hundred years and NOTHING has changed!maybe we should just let the inventors and independant companies do this.thinkers on that level seem to succeed more often than a room full of thinkers!Obama is on the wrong path with this and everything!leave it to an American inventor!

  • goodsteve

    Before I’ll even think about buying an electric car, ALL of the following need to
    take place.

    1) Increase the range and endurance.
    2) Decrease the turnaround time on the charger.
    3) Dramaticly decrease the purchase price.
    4) Dramaticly decrease the cost of replacement power packs.
    5) Dramaticly decrease other maintainence and repair costs.
    6) Provide more and better recharging stations and for free or
    very low cost. (After all I ain’t Bill Gates or Donald Trump).
    7) Give me a substantial price break in registration and insurance.
    8) And last, but not least, make them safer.

  • thefiledocument

    Americans don’t deserve a good government. Their ancestors massacred thousands of helpess people, and continued to people without technology for a long time after that and it seems they are doing the same thing.

    Such a stupid bunch.

  • Ross Blankert

    Anything the government controls in the business sector will fail. They don’t have to make a profit. Business does. Communism does not work and that is what is at work in this country now. Electric cars indeed. They are stopping every attempt to increase the supply of electricity. Where are you going to plug it in, your solar panel. Have you ever seen a solar powered plane or train? It is not going to happen at all.

    • Nick Czudy

      Ross. That is a statement that was uttered under the RIght Wing Bubble. Government can and does make a positive return from many of their investments. they made 22 billion from the money that they gave AIG Insurance. In fact they were threatening to sue the government for making the conditions too strict. Does that not sound like a good business decision. The list can go on and on. How did the Gov help that New Orleans citizens with their spending? If you cut them a little slack, think of them as a large flywheel, that has higher mass (resources) than individuals, to spend vast sums, to make positive purchases and investments. So that is pure Right Wing bull to say that the anything that the government does will fail. If you were a smug 1 % of the population, you might be right. The difference is that the 1% does not have any problems to make money over other peoples loss. Government, does not have this profit over all else attitude. Look at how the medical system in the USA has run roughshod over people in making their millions. That is not how a government by the people and for the people should behave. regards Nick


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