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The MSM And Downgrade Absurdity

August 10, 2011 by  

The MSM And Downgrade Absurdity

The meme of the week, that the Standard & Poor’s downgrade of the United States’ sovereign credit rating was caused by the Tea Party, is absurd.

First, S&P and its rating system are irrelevant. This is the same ratings agency that gave A ratings to Lehman Brothers and other teetering banks right before they crashed and burned in 2008.

Second, that S&P would have allowed a country with the debt problems the U.S has — a deficit of $1.4 trillion and a debt of $14 trillion (or really more than $200 trillion when all “entitlements” are included) — to maintain a AAA rating demonstrates that its ratings aren’t grounded in reality.

Finally, the Tea Party elected candidates to Congress who promised to return the U.S. to Constitutional governance and tackle the country’s spending problems. This deal doesn’t do that, and it even goes so far as to create an unConstitutional “super committee” to ram through more spending and tax increases.

S&P warned going into the debt-ceiling discussions that if spending wasn’t tackled, a downgrade was coming. It followed through with its promise.

But rather than tackle spending, Congress continued business as usual. So the downgrade is a “business-as-usual” downgrade, and the market responded by demonstrating what it thought of the deal.

But it doesn’t really matter. I’ve written before that the U.S. really has no debt. And although this statement has been met with ridicule from some people who don’t understand U.S. finance, none other than former Federal Reserve Chairman Alan Greenspan confirmed Sunday what I have said for years.

“The United States can pay any debt it has because we can always print money to do that. So there is zero probability of default,” Greenspan said on NBC’s Meet the Press.

If you can print money to infinity, then you have no debt. Unfortunately, if we lived by the same financial rules as government, we would be put away for a dozen lifetimes.

Bob Livingston

is an ultra-conservative American and author of The Bob Livingston Letter™, founded in 1969. Bob has devoted much of his life to research and the quest for truth on a variety of subjects. Bob specializes in health issues such as nutritional supplements and alternatives to drugs, as well as issues of privacy (both personal and financial), asset protection and the preservation of freedom.

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  • former walmart person

    With the police state in place now, 2 + 2 = 5, the tea party is responsible for all problems in the known and unknown universe, and America’s financial outlook couldn’t be better. If you dare to say differently, some police therapy will get you to see the “truth”.

    • http://personalliberty Alice

      I was amused to discover that I was delusional and needed psychiatric help because I agree with the Tea Party that spending has to be gotten under control and taxes need to be lowered. One might say that an obsessive gambler is sane and the family who tries to stop him is delusional.

      • Bob from SoCal

        This is all part of a strategy used by the elites to demonize anyone that they believe could be a possible threat to them. First they need to categorize you as insane or a criminal. Once they repeat this lie enough the general public will not rise up when the jackboots come down on the necks of anyone resisting them. They will believe that it is for their own security. This went into full swing when the DHS MIAC report came out demonizing Veterans, Christians and conservatives.

    • Jyrine

      Very good former. Of course, police administer their therapy at the end of a night stick.

  • Doc Sarvis

    Your first argument;”S&P and its rating system are irrelevant. This is the same ratings agency that gave A ratings to Lehman Brothers and other teetering banks right before they crashed and burned in 2008.” is false. While S&P (and other rating systems) ratings may be inaccurate, as in the A rating for Lehman Brothers in 2008, the ratings are relevant because investors and others pay attention to them.

    • former walmart person

      This is akin to saying that prisoners pay attention to guards when the guard says 2 + 2 =5!!!!! Do you got THAT!!!!!!!!

      • Doc Sarvis

        Prisoners DO pay attention to guards no matter what the guards say. Right or wrong, the guards have a major influence on the lives of the prisoners.

      • Dan az

        Sorry FWP
        But this is just another BS scam.They were the ones that made millions on the phony ratings just days before they let the people bail them out at 100% backing of more fiat money.It was aloud to happen br the feds for a year against the very laws that they were breaking so they could pass more laws to allow them to continue the theft.The (inside job)documentary explains this perfectly and gives the names of who was doing it.Check it out!

    • Ellen

      Years ago, I worked for a Fortune 500 company that was bankrupt. Our CEO asked the rating agencies to keep our rating high so we could continue to raise capital thru stock sales. If we lost that ability, we would’ve had to shut down. The rating agencies kept our rating up and we quietly looked for a company to buy us. Fortunately, a company did buy us and we all remained employed. I learned back then that the ratings system is useless.

      • Dan az

        You will find that the rating companies are headed up by liberal professors from haavrd and columbia and are or were hired by obumer to continue their theft by giving them positions in the gubmnt to change laws to made it easier for them.I went back and watched the doc.called the inside job and thats when it made sense of who they were because the names have not changed.

    • 101stRECON68

      Doc, you’re right. An abundance of lemming investors Do pay attention to S&P’s ratings. I place as much value and trust in their ratings as I do Government statistics. My successful investing strategy has always been to go in the opposite direction when the lemmings are diving off the cliff. I’ve done ok investing that way in the market. It also pays to have a backup contingency plan as well and for that I have gold, silver and lead as secondary investments. I can assure you that the value of lead in it’s most usable form will never devalue and will be around long after the dollar is kaput.

    • DaveH

      Where did that come from, Doc?
      I’m sure that what Bob meant was that the S&P ratings are irrelevant to intelligent investors. That is, intelligent investors take advice, from those people who have a track record of bad advice, with a big grain of salt.
      Kind of like your Liberal comments are irrelevant to me, Doc.

      • Doc Sarvis

        Your very post to me proves that my comments are NOT irrelevant to you. Try as you might, you can’t take your eyes off my valid points.

        • DaveH

          Hope and Dream, Doc. You have rarely made a point that I consider to be relevant.

          • eddie47d

            They always say they won’t read the opposing opinions Doc yet they always do. That is a promise they can’t keep.

          • DaveH

            Have I said that, Eddie?
            When are you going to quit twisting the truth?
            You are beyond annoying with your fabricated facts.

          • Jyrine

            This one is DaveH. Doc has shine on you.

      • eddie47d

        Nothing fabricated Dave except for your denial.


      Barak Obama & Tim Geithner are irrelevant also, but millions of stupid people are still listening to them, like Ed Schultz, Rachel Maddow, Joe Biden, Cynthia Tucker, etc.

    • DeJay

      DocSarvis: This is a good example of how the English language can lead us astray. The S&P rating is relavent to investers but irrelevant to the ratings as they apply other things. I believe that misunderstanding the English Language has gotten the world in more trouble then anything else and maybe it was meant to be that way by the Elders of Z.

  • Carol

    It is so sad to allow one (1) company to do such damage to anything and especially this one and yet stupid people listened unbelievable.

    • Raggs

      Karol.. your wrong.. the damage is coming from the administration and that is just what they want to destroy our country.

      • JUKEBOX

        That’s right, otherwise Obama would not be able to show his face in public, spouting his rhetoric, all the while grinning from ear to ear and shaking hands gleefully. His obvious arrogance is equivalent only to his incompetence.

  • former walmart person

    “If you can print money to infinity, then you have no debt. Unfortunately, if we lived by the same financial rules as government, we would be put away for a dozen lifetimes.”.

    This is related to what the tyrant Joseph Stalin once said: “one person dead is a tragedy, 1,000,000 people dead is a statistic”. Government power allows such evil to be regarded as a “statistic”. Similarily, if I counterfeit $1,000, I go to jail for a huge portion of my life. The Fed counterfeits TRILLIONS and on top of that, gives it to whoever it wants with no regard whatsoever to the rule of law, and its just sane fiscal policy and not a crime at all.

  • JMJ

    Obama and his cry-babies have to blame someone, don’t they? It is the same old line that mothers have heard from their children when something happens: I didn’t do it; not me; it was: (just fill in the blank spaces). +JMJ+

    • former walmart person

      I don’t know if Obama has 100% fessed up to one darn thing yet!

      • Doc Sarvis

        How about getting shellaced in the mid-term elections?

  • Warrior

    Mike Lee gave a great analogy yesterday. “Blaming the Tea Party for the S&P downgrade is like blaming Paul Revere for the British coming”!
    How true.

  • s c

    Now that Herr Greenspan dared to make his little speech, do you NOW understand how IRRELEVANT he is? Is it not obvious that he is utterly without credibility and that someone literally OWNS his posterior? The only difference between someone like Greenspan or Bernanke is in the obvious fact that they’re not elected.
    In effect, they’re carrying Obama’s water for him because he was NEVER competent in financial matters. n a similar issue, the impeachment folks need to act on Obama’s unconstitutional creation of that damned ‘superCongress.’
    For the feeble-minded on this website (you know who you are), if you dare to act like you’re a god and claim to have god-like powers, you’d better have those powers. If you DON’T, your rump is fair game for whatever happens.
    Someone tell me how ‘some’ people can be so corrupt and so stupid to think that their “leader” can do ANYTHING he wants simply because that subhuman was elected. Being elected was NEVER a license to do what you want. Only an anarchist would think such crap, and only an anarchist has to answer for that behavior.
    By the way, Lenin’s children, take a hard look at what’s going on in England. If you think it can’t happen here, you need to be committed to the nearest mental institution.
    But remember, you’re doing what you’re doing because you sold yourself the same way your damned ‘leaders’ have. NONE of you deserve to be FREE.

    • Al Sieber

      I second that. Greenspan and Bernanke should be behind bars at the very least.

      • s c

        Al, I’ll drink to and support anything that sends Bummer back to Shecawger, Biden back to CT (or DE), Ben the Boob out of the country and Greenspan to the nearest laughing academy of his choice.

        • Lost in Paradise

          How about a million angry citizens taking the Capital by surprise and lynching the bastards?

          • JUKEBOX

            Looks like the Brits have already started this scenario.

      • eddie47d

        Since Bernacke,Greenspan and Geithner represent what most folks look at as Capitalism then maybe that system is outmoded. It’s been operating the same way long before Obama and somehow we expect different results. We glorify greed in this nation and want to emulate whatever the capitalists have. No matter how rotten to the core they become they are allowed to continue in their wretch ed ways.Attacking Elitists and “crony” capitalists is a cop out Unless you want to get to the meat of the matter so sh*t or get off the pot.

        • lkar

          So the alternative is ??? Socialism (redistribution of wealth until there is none). Dictatorship. Oligarchy. Monarchy. Theocracy. Anarchy. Is there another option I missed?

          • DaveH

            Anarchy is just a manipulative word used to denigrate anybody who wants to shrink Government dramatically.
            The truth is that groups of people always have and always will have leaders and rules. At best the closest we can ever come to Anarchy is that very brief interval of time after a Government completely collapses and before some new system of order can be reinstated.

        • DaveH

          Don’t pretend to speak for most people. You don’t.
          Capitalism is simply “an economic system in which investment in and ownership of the means of production, distribution, and exchange of wealth is made and maintained chiefly by private individuals or corporations, especially as contrasted to cooperatively or state-owned means of wealth.” (from
          Property will always be possessed by an individual or some group of individuals no matter what the system. Under a Capitalist system the people who voluntarily contracted and worked to earn that property are the legal possessors of the property.
          Under any other system, the possession of the property is decided by a minority of people who didn’t earn that property voluntarily.
          Why do you think you’d be any happier under a system where the most politically connected people possessed the property, as opposed to a system where the people who worked for the property get to possess it?

          • Dennis48E

            “Why do you think you’d be any happier under a system where the most politically connected people possessed the property, as opposed to a system where the people who worked for the property get to possess it?”

            eddie would be happier because the rulers told him he was happy and he is gullible enough to believe them.

          • Song

            Thank you DaveH…I consistently find it amazing that Eddie seems to know so much about the majority when I sincerely doubt he has even stepped outside his little corner of the world and interacted with the people that he so envy’s, demonizes and hates.

          • eddie47d

            Dave don’t pretend to speak for most people …you don’t. I wasn’t talking about property rights or was my comment a little over your head? As long as you have almost no control over who is manipulating Capitalism then your grandstanding and self importance isn’t going to get you to your utopia. The Banksters have you by the cajones and that is no different than for most. You can try and change the system all you want for that is an American privilege but stop denying what is really going on with “your side”. As if the differences are always that great. Hint: A better America.

          • DaveH

            Did I say I speak for most other people, Eddie the Parrot?
            You have no credibility with me. I doubt you have any with most other readers. You’re just an annoying little Troll. I would call you a Liberal Troll, but that would be an undeserved insult to Liberals.

          • eddie47d

            Then Why would you use the same quote against me. Pay attention to what YOU say for a change.

        • ValDM

          Calling those 3 capitalists is like saying I’m a shoo-in to be the next Pope…..I’m not catholic, nor am I male. Those 3 have never started a business, funded a business, or even RUN a business. The closest they’ve EVER come to capitalism is GIVING US THE BUSINESS. You can expect in the coming months for a very strong black market to spring up, so don’t sound the death knell for capitalism just yet.

        • Jay

          eddie, i’ve divided your statement into three sections to show the readers what a clever, manipulative and unscrupulous liar you are.

          eddie:Since Bernacke,Greenspan and Geithner represent what most folks look at as Capitalism then maybe that system is outmoded.

          Here you try to find common ground with the readers by echoing the truth and the sentiments that most share regarding the names you mentioned. This is obviously designed to gain the trust, credibility, and sympathy from the readers.

          eddie:It’s been operating the same way long before Obama and somehow we expect different results.

          Now that you have your readers attention and confidence, you deftly shift all responsibility and blame to the previous administrations while deflecting all blame from obama.

          eddie: We glorify greed in this nation and want to emulate whatever the capitalists have. No matter how rotten to the core they become they are allowed to continue in their wretch ed ways.Attacking Elitists and “crony” capitalists is a cop out Unless you want to get to the meat of the matter so sh*t or get off the pot.

          Here, what can only be described as an act of cruel, and out of control schizophrenia, you pull a 180 and attack your readers with a viscous, and accusatory statement, and suggest, that the present economic quagmire is not the result of the socialist pigs that presently rule from the White House, but it is the direct result of imbibing capitalism, and, the lack of a concerted effort to destroy capitalism is what determines our present, and continuing economic slide into the abyss!

          eddie, what more proof do we need that you are a blood sucking, socialist loving, obama butt-kissing scum? Loser!

          • eddie47d

            I wouldn’t expect nothing less from you Jay. Was that your dinner conversation in front of the kids? Are you a psychiatrist or do you only need psychiatric help?

        • Bob from SoCal

          Both sides of the isle are robbing this country blind. Capitalism works as long as criminals are not in charge. History shows that socialism and communism have never worked. So lets just kick out the criminals and stick with what we know works.

        • Al Sieber

          Come on eddie, we’re not talking about Capitalism, we’re talking about crooks,that can steal by their laws. I’m on your side eddie, don’t you believe me? they’re all criminals wake up Miss eddie.

  • Capitalist at Birth

    I hope and pray that enough of the American people will wake up and do the right thing in 2012. If not, I will continue to by fire arms and ammunition, as well as food, water, medical supplies, and fuel, in preparation for the sure to come chaos.

  • TIME

    Really it all boils down to one thing, “Bull Sh*t Sells” and the American people have been sold so much BS over the last 100 plus years that I am shocked that anyone can still think even the most basic of thoughts.

    Oh – I forgot the Mass media’s only been able to brainwash the world’s population for the last 50 years.

    You know we see it daily, Up is down, ~~ down is up, ~~ good is bad,~~ bad is good.

    See now don’t you all feel better? Hell I know I do, afterall what made the market crash, what gave us a down grade from AAA to AA+++

    Well we all know it wasn’t the out of control spending by the special Political Class in the DC Belt Way, No.. Thats just crazy to think that.
    No they just have been giving away Trillions of US TAX PAYERS hard earned money to places that HATE us. Oh and the World Bank!
    Hey they need LOVE TOO!
    Why be so tight with YOUR money when you could give it to people who HATE you, why its just down right crazy of you not to want to give and give even more!
    What are you all just Nasty people who can’t see that the Rothschilds need more or your money than you do?

    Hey they have real Homes to keep up, as far as I know over 100 of them and you know keeping up a place with 500 Acres, and a 35.000 Sqft Home is costly, afterall you need to feel their “PAIN.”
    How heartless of you all.

    Really The real reason why we are in this mess is, “Dixie Cups,” yep I said it, them damm Dixie Cups they did it!

    They are just criminal they have not been taxing us enough, NOoooo, And they also have not been giving enough of your money to give away!!
    Afterall a Dixie Cup is so warm and just is full of LOVE and compassion for those that don’t want to work, or want to KILL US.

    Will you Please give to the Dixie Cups Foundation?

    Please how can they live without your MONEY, you don’t need any money, so fess up and just pay all your earnings to the Dixie Cups.

    Then in return you can have FREE HEALTH CARE, its good for the first 35 years. But if you have a sickness that can’t be cured, oh well the fine print states your SOL.

    Free Homes, for the first 35 years, then you have to go to a camp to be retrained in how to die.

    Free Food, yep, mashed mush, no flavors, no taste, and best of all no smell. OH ~~~ Yummie, oh that last only the first 35 years too.

    Free Cloths, yea baby, free work suits a one piece suit that should last you a full life time! If it wears out, oh well you go to the camps a few years early. No biggie.

    Free TV, now were talking, Yep ~~ one station with your New GOD on 24 hours per day telling you how good your life is in your 70′ Sqft room.

    Free, Drinks, ok baby, yes indeed FREE tastless stuff thats kinda of green looking, but hey after drinking it man your seeing the stars..
    And best of all its ~~~ Free,

    Wowie I can’t wait.

    • Lost in Paradise

      (offensive comment removed)

    • Dan az

      Do you remember what a dixie cup sounds like when you stomp on it?Pop!The same sound that you get when they pull their heads out of their azz.

      • TIME


        You must be reading my mind again!!!! Now you stop that.. LOL..

      • Al Sieber

        Dan, just got home from work, all depressed saw your post and laughed my a$$ off, thanks for that one. yeah, I’m digging my ass off, 2 backhoes now, and a excavator coming Friday, gold at $1800 a oz., why not? temp. at 105*, kinda a cool summer.

        • Dan az

          I’m glad to here it but please mid hundreds cool?The sun has melted your brain!!!For Gods sake man get out of the sun! :)Hey the VA finally accepted my claim on agent orange things are starting to look up again!It only took 36 years but who says they are efficient they are the gbmnt now.I wonder how long its going to take for them to admit that they put us on an Island that was radioactive?probably another 36 yrs.At least now I’m not having to pay for my meds that took all of my comp pay.About time things are changing,good for both of us! :)


      I noticed that Al Gore used the BS word three times in a speech the other day. I knew that was what he’s been selling for 30 years.

    • 45caliber


      Have you ever heard of “tribute”? That’s the money you pay to make friends with your enemies. And it works too – as long as you keep paying. Even if it goes up. And sometimes it requires the lives of your sons and daughters but considering what you’ve already given, that is only peanuts, right?

      And all this foreign aid has ALWAYs seemed to me to be tribute.

      • TIME


        It was really quite common back in the very old times, like in ROME.

        And I agree with you 100% on your post.

  • 101stRECON68

    Don’t forget, “Soylent Green is PEOPLE”.

    • Doc Sarvis

      Actually, it is a movie.

      • independent thinker

        Yeah, a movie about turning people into “Soylent Green”.

        • Dan az

          If you think about it, they are using human DNA to genetically alter the food we eat now! HMMMM!yummy!

      • Jyrine

        Profound Doc. Trully cosmic.

  • Speller

    The opposite of right is wrong. The other opposite of right is left.
    Logic dictates that the left is wrong.

    • Falcon99

      “A wise man’s heart directs him toward the right, but the foolish man’s heart directs him toward the left.” Ecclesiastes 10:2

      “Woe to those who call evil good, and good evil; who substitute darkness for light and light for darkness…” Isaiah 5:20

      • 45caliber

        And both verses are directly applicable today …

  • Bob

    One has to understand the process of scapegoating to understand the left’s blaming of the TEA Party. Hitler blamed the Jews, Stalin blamed the bourgeois, Mao blamed counter-revolutionaries, and Pol Pot blamed everyone. This allowed these leftist scum to demonize those who opposed them and then, ultimately, allowed maobama’s role models to exterminate them. By scapegoating these groups the leftist scum were able to direct the anger of the people away from their incompetance to the innocent scapegoats. In scapegoating maobama’s enemies, the media has become a part of this process and must be held accountable for this crime when the lieberals are out of power.

    • Lost in Paradise

      Bob you must be joking! Liberals out of power??? Of 300million how many do you think are liberal?? I would bet over 50%. At anyrate, the America we all yearn for is long gone. We will not be able to get it back without a very serious revolution. We need a totally new government, meaning all politicians need to be removed and then we need to start over from the beginning with the United States Constitution, and the Bill of Rights.

      • Dan az

        Truth is that day is coming sooner than you think!

      • professor

        Americans used to be, “of one mind.” Everyone wanted the same things, lived similar lives, and belonged to a Christian religion. With the hordes of immigrants, our country has been “fundamentally changed.” (Remember that phrase!) But, “real Americans,” still believe in an America we once knew…the one that, “belonged to us.” It was a great Nation. We were a great people, generous to a fault and willing to help, even our enemies! Those are the people that made America strong, and those Americans are still here! I prefer to believe that the vast majority of “real Americans” love this country, love freedom, and are more Conservative, than liberal.

        Day after day, people acknowledge what is happening to our country, and they know what must be done. But, are the majority of Americans up to the task. Are they willing to do what is needed and fight for our country. I believe that is more to the question.

      • Bob

        True – we need a revolution. Maybe maobama’s end will come in a bunker just like his role model Hitler.

        • DaveH

          Revolutions rarely come to good ends. We were lucky in ours, but even then there was an immense struggle to prevent people like Alexander Hamilton from creating a new system not unlike the old system that our ancestors fought to rid our country of.
          Eventually, though, the Hamiltonians won out (about 70 years later), and Government has been growing ever since.
          Read this and think about it:

        • Lino

          Are you speaking of violent revolution? The trouble with revolution is that it usually carries the seed of it own destruction. Look at Latin America. How many revolutions have taken place there and how many have brought prosperity to the people of whom the revolution was meant to help. All that we need to do is follow and enfoce the Provisions of our Constitution.

          • professor

            A revolution, quiet or violent, must involve, “a moral people.! Any country that wants to “live free” must be organized by moral and ethical leaders. The Constitution was written assuming that the leaders would be, “moral Christian!” Our government was based on Christian values and that sustained the greatness of this country. Once, we allowed “political correctness, diversity and multiculturalism,” to be taught we began to lose our freedom. Right became wrong, and up became down, good became evil. “Reason” was demonized as politically incorrect.

            At one time, terrorism from within could never have been conceived. Today the threat of terrorism is being used to take away freedom. Terrorism comes in many forms. Those screaming, looting animals, in England, are a precursor to what will happen here. It will soon be in our streets, as well. The government tells the “useless” that they should have your property, because you actually stole it away from them….(typical liberal thinking.) There is an army of restless “takers,” in this country, just waiting for the right time. This government could unleash their “army” of these animals, at will.

            Point being, we must go back to the Constitution to regain our Nation. To do that, this country, once again, must be lead by ethical and moral men, not your typical, power-hungry, revolutionists.
            Values need to be renewed, and self-sufficient individuals rewarded, not penalized. Everyone must participate and be productive, as they were in the building of this Nation.

      • DaveH
      • Dan az

        No truer words said.Thanks

  • TML

    “The United States can pay any debt it has because we can always print money to do that. So there is zero probability of default,” Greenspan said on NBC’s Meet the Press.”

    Which ultimately makes the money worthless.

    • DaveH

      Those who would like to see what our Federal Reserve has done to our dollar since 1913 can go here:
      It is quite an eye-opener to look at the period between 1800 and 1913, and then look at the period between 1913 to 2010. Note especially that in 1913, the dollar could actually buy more than it could in 1800. So people who labored and saved their money for the future were justly rewarded.
      Since the Federal Reserve was created (1913), they (both Government and the Federal Reserve) have been basically stealing the money of the savers by diluting the money supply with ever more dollars, thus decreasing the value (buying power) of the peoples’ savings.

  • Shyguy2011

    Unfortunately, there are so many rules that have been put into effect by previous members of the House and Senate, that there needs to be a major overhaul of the internal machinations to get us where we need to be to fix our problems. Items such as pay raises and benefits that they have voted for themselves will not be changed just because only 1/3rd of the Senate is up for election every 2 years. The remaining 2/3rds will prevail. Also, in the House, they just need one term (2 years) to get full benefits for life. Hence the term ‘Professional Politician’. Nice job if you don’t mind selling your soul to the devil. The best thing we can do is to keep on telling the story, not only by preaching to the choir on these blogs, but to get out, stand up and convince your family, friends and work associates about the crooks in Washington and Wall Street. Wake up and pay attention to what the Money and Political and Hollywood elites are doing to our country. It is bad and will get worse unless we all wake up. God Bless America.

    • DaveH

      A good first step would be to abolish the 17th Amendment. Before then, the Framers in their wisdom had set up the Senate to represent the States, and the House to represent the People, as a system of checks and balances. If the Senators weren’t doing their duty (representing the state) they could be recalled. And you can bet the State Legislatures watched them a lot more carefully than the mainstream people do.
      Now, the Senators’ loyalties tend to be with the Federal Government rather than the States. And they can get away with a lot during those 6 years before the people of the States they represent finally catch on and get rid of them.

  • Shirley

    The inexperience of the ‘Tea Partiers’ was not helpful in the latest destructive financial crisis. FIRST, the USA had to pay the debts that it owed. THEN, reducing government spending needed to be addressed. But the TP members tied the two together and due to ? ignorance? have caused more problems for the American citizens. They were stubborn, immature and ill-informed. We need to cut spending AND increase revenue. We ARE NOT a 3rd world country but the TPs are trying to take us there. We may wish that S$P was irrelevant but they are not and they just spanked us because our elected leaders(???) acted like spoiled brats. Spin it anyway you want, but the reality is that our leaders need to start acting like LEADERS!!!

    • TIME

      Helloooo Miss Shirley,

      Can I get you a drink or something, as its obvious your in dire need of a stiff drink, a really stiff drink.

      Perhaps when you wake up you will be more alert and less Zombie like.
      Good on Ya!

    • Jeep

      Surely Shirley you can understand basic math… If you are given a dollar a day to spend, then you have a dollar to spend.

      However, if you want to spend $1.48 then you have choices. Either re-evaluate your spending and stay within the dollar, or steal the money (taxes), or you must borrow the .48 cents from somewhere.

      Our govt has been borrowing the .48 cents every day for a long time. The Tea Partiers were sent to Washington to stop the borrowing and bring the spending down to the $1.00 a day that tax returns bring in. Is that simple enough to understand. I know your liberal instincts demand that you borrow and tax, but we’ve tried that, and it doesn’t work out so well for those of us who actually pay taxes.

      • Song

        I really don’t think she can…(shaking head in absolute disbelief!)

    • Push comes to Shove

      I agree lets increase revenue, it is just that my way is probobaly not in line with yours.

      There are 50% of the american people who pay no taxes at all, and i would surmise it is these people who vote in the idiots who promise them more of the same. Everyone should have to pay at least a 5% effective tax rate. Right now alot of those 50% are getting back more than they pay in (can you say wealth redistribution?). I have a novel idea, how about if your effective tax rate is zero or less you get no vote in the election, which i equate to politicians voting in thier own raises.

      But government spending, wow does that need to be cut at the very least by 40%.

      • Push comes to Shove

        sorry Jeep meant to address it to shirley

    • Bob

      Name some politicians you consider to be leaders so we can see you for what you obviously are – a left wing crazy who just wants some more of our tax money. Slashing government is all we need to do, we do not need a tax increase. Cut salaries, end welfare, end programs – that is the way to get out of this mess.

    • http://lives RAYMOND HARBIN


  • Song

    I agree completely Push and I see it first hand every day…people that sole income is SSI get tax refunds because they have children, or because they have disabled children or because they have foster children or because they have an adopted child. In every instance, their refund is far and above anything they paid into the system, if anything at all. In addition, many of these same people receive food stamps, subsidized housing and free medical care…and ALL of the people I work with are generational welfare recipients..this is their way of life…it is a HUGE problem.

    • 45caliber


      I agree. I see a lot of that too, and I don’t work with them. I have a step-sister who is on it – and she never worked a day outside the home in her life. She told me that she had your youngest son on “crazy money” and that she was sad she hadn’t been able to get the two older ones on it too. Then they could have made some real money. The three boys work but not at real steady jobs – all work cutting timber. One woman taking care of foster kids bought a house with a $10,000 a month house payment. She makes it easily on what she’s paid for the kids.

  • Raggs

    What was it oblama said???… Oh yeah… I will not make the people that do not pay an income tax, pay an income tax until the people that pay a tax pay their fair share.

  • Mac

    How come no mention of Moody’s? They were the people who were first to holler about the potential national credit rating decrease.

    More “how-comes” – why are we letting the three individual credit rating bureaus run our lives? Who allowed them to cause the huge interest rates that low-income people have to pay, when they are the very people who should have the lowest interest rates?

  • professor

    It is beginning to look like that “fair share” is 100% in tax!

    Everyone should have, “a dog in the hunt.” This country has 50% of its population that is invested in raising taxes on others, and increasing their own benefits…..a conflict that should not be tolerated by hard-working Americans!

  • Thinking About

    Shirley, I agree with you. Whether many want to admit or own the truth the rsult is the same. I have not decided if the inexperience or inability to comprehend the function they was elected to and for sure they do not understand the Constitution and their oath. Actions are proving it is little knowledge of American history or spinning the truth. There was warnings of downgrades and what the results would be but we will probably be more money with the delay in raising the debt ceiling. Lowering the debt will take a balanced approach of tax reform and spending cuts and either the tea party wants our debts lowered or it is business as usual

  • SMSgt Z retired Nam 68

    A different view

    I’m generally wary of writing about short-term moves in the markets. There’s an overwhelming temptation to confuse correlation and causation, and to impose some false, newsy narrative on the world.

    But sometimes I can’t resist:

    Stocks were down this morning, and the interest rate on Treasury bonds fell.

    In other words, bond investors’ first reaction after S&P’s downgrade of U.S. government debt was to be even more eager to lend money to the U.S. government.

    On one level, this isn’t terribly surprising. As we noted on Friday, the S&P downgrade didn’t tell the world anything new. S&P didn’t have any inside information. It was just voicing its opinion.

    What’s more, most Treasuries are held by big, institutional investors who do their own research and don’t rely on rating agencies for this sort of thing. And, while ratings do play a role in financial regulation, regulations treat AAA and AA-plus the same way, for the most part.

    If you really want to cram this morning’s decline in Treasury yields into a narrative about the downgrade, you could say that the downgrade of U.S. government debt scared investors, and what investors do when they’re scared is buy U.S. government debt.

    But that just sounds ridiculous, doesn’t it?

    So let’s go with another, less-ridiculous sounding (though still possibly false) narrative.

    There has been a string of bad economic news lately. Europe is still a mess. And in the U.S., we learned recently that the economy is growing even more slowly than we previously thought.

    Slowing economic growth — and, more generally, fear — tends to make people sell stocks and buy bonds. And that’s what’s happening this morning.

  • SMSgt Z retired Nam 68


    Just days after the Treasury Department criticized Standard & Poor’s for “a $2 trillion mistake” in the math it used to justify its credit downgrade of the United States, the ratings firm sent a letter to securities regulators urging them to keep some proposed regulations as vague as possible.

    One area in which S&P had specific interest in keeping things vague? A provision that would require the firm to report “significant errors.” The letter was first noticed by Reuters, though you can see the letter for yourself [PDF] on the Security and Exchange Commission’s website.

    S&P “does not believe that the Commission should attempt to define the term ‘significant error,’ ” the firm wrote. Should it do so, the commission “would effectively be substituting its judgment for that of the (rating agency).” (Reuters notes that the other two of the three main ratings firms, Moody’s and Fitch, did not raise major concernsabout the proposed rule on errors.)

    In the controversy over the U.S. downgrade, Treasury officials accused the firm of making a miscalculation that “undermined the economic justification for S&P’s credit rating decision,” noting that after the mistake was pointed out, “S&P simply removed a prominent discussion of the economic justification from their document.”

    According to the Wall Street Journal, however, S&P didn’t seem to agree on whether this mistake constituted a significant error:

    S&P officials acknowledged the error Treasury pointed out but didn’t believe it was so significant. It was a technical error, though it could have serious implications.

    “We have found our error correction policy has proven to be effective,” the company told the SEC. That policy requires [PDF] the firm’s employees to “promptly report any material errors discovered” but essentially leaves it to the firm to define whether the error is significant enough to warrant disclosure or adjustment of ratings.

    The SEC rule-making is mandated by the Dodd-Frank financial reform bill, passed by Congress last year to clean up after the financial meltdown of 2008.

    In its comments on the rules, S&P sought more discretion than regulators had proposed. “The Commission should not set out such detailed requirements,” the company wrote regarding a proposal to require more reporting on firms’ internal control structures.

    The rules also require ratings firms to limit the interaction between employees involved in developing ratings and employees involved in sales and marketing activities—the idea being to prevent the sort of conflicts of interest that some say aided and abetted the creation of risky mortage-backed securities.

    S&P urged the SEC not to define “sales and marketing activities.”

    “We think it is appropriate for individual (rating agencies) to define these activities for themselves,” the company wrote.

    Meanwhile, advocates of reform expressed disappointment on key aspects of the rules regarding internal controls and conflicts of interest. In a separate letter, Americans for Financial Reform and the Consumer Federation of America urged the SEC to enact more stringent rules in those areas and to provide “extensive clarification” on other aspects of the proposed regulations that the groups felt were too vague to be meaningful.

  • Jeff in OH

    It may have been because of the Tea Party!!! With all there hooping and hollering at the dumbass politicians, they still couldn’t stop them from spending and borrowing. There fault….
    By the way, If the Tea party had it there way, the country wouldn’t be downgraded. S&P dropped us down because the debt ceiling was raised. They would’t have had we even tried to control our debt.

  • Shirley

    They dropped our credit rating because Congress acted as if they did not get it …which they obviously did not. I am disgusted with the name calling. I am a tax-paying American citizen who loves her country and has read the Constitution. I am not a flaming anything ; just a citizen expressing her opinion. I respect your right to express your opinion. Try opening your minds BUT first be informed about the realities of life. If you owe a debt you must pay it or face the consequences. If you ran up more debt than you should have; you still must pay your debt THEN you cut back on your spending AND you work hard to get more revenue(i.e. tax the wealthy the same as the middle class.) Not that complicated, actually.

  • http://lives RAYMOND HARBIN














  • Shirley

    Now, we see another issue to be addressed: we need more mental health care in our nation!

    • http://lives RAYMOND HARBIN




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