The Fries Are Really Done

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Fast food workers join nationwide strike in Los Angeles

Despite the enormous amount of health, wellness and nutrition advice available courtesy of my colleagues here at Personal Liberty, I must admit: I eat more McDonald’s than I should. Given the quality of Ronald McDonald’s culinary expertise, eating any McDonald’s qualifies as “more than I should.” Nonetheless, I happen to like McDonald’s; and it’s not as if the restaurant is lying to me about its fare. It’s fast food: quick, cheap and filling.

Nutrition has nothing to do with the success of McDonald’s. We know it; and the company knows it. People do not go to McDonald’s in search of haute cuisine, and McDonald’s doesn’t offer it. The restaurants maintain their low prices by keeping their costs even lower. And they keep their costs low by selling their low-nutrition food and paying their low-skill employees low wages.

Apparently, the Democrats — who spend an inordinate amount of time telling us to avoid places like McDonald’s — think the people who work at McDonald’s should be paid more to serve us the food they don’t think we should be eating. Last week, the Service Employees International Union and the usual coterie of left-wing lunatics and layabouts organized another of their work stoppages, as McDonald’s employees across the Nation walked away from their Quarter Pounders (*pre-cooked weight) to protest against the $7.25 per hour minimum wage. Their demand: $15 per hour. Fifteen. Dollars. Per. Hour. Pardon me, Mister and Miss Fry Cook, but I didn’t catch the news about McDonald’s adding a McKobe Beef Burger.

According to the left-wing group National Employment Law Project, McDonald’s and the fast-food industry actually pay front-line workers an average of $8.94 per hour. They pay that wage because that’s what they can pay and still sell whatever those Chicken McNuggets are (my guess: beaks and tailfeathers) for $4.99 with a medium soda and fries. If McDonald’s starts paying Big Mac makers $15 per hour, they’ll have to make up the hike in labor costs somewhere. That means either the restaurants start charging $12 for that McBeaknFeathers Value Meal or they hand pink slips to about half their workforce. Obviously, the former idea would represent a fatal mistake akin to throwing the company’s business out with the used fry oil. That unfortunate “McDLT” business aside, McDonald’s hasn’t put Golden Arches from here to Tiananmen Square and back by overestimating customers’ palates and what they’re willing to pay to satisfy them.

McDonald’s workers earn $8.94 per hour because McDonald’s workers earn only $8.94 per hour. If they wish to earn twice that, they should apply at Morton’s. When I was just a lad, I got McDonald’s only if my mother was out of town. Mom can really put groceries on the table, whereas the old man… Well, if he can’t grill it, it’s being delivered. But even though I thought of “Mickey D’s” as a bit of a treat, I certainly didn’t dream of a career in the exciting world of fast food. While I never worked at McDonald’s, I did learn the value of my work. Stacking sand and concrete mix bags behind the old True Value was worth minimum wage, $3.35 per hour at the time. The skill required to flip a burger isn’t much different. The various managerial levels do offer better pay, but no one is ever going to buy a summer home in the Hamptons on a fast food manager’s salary.

If you want to earn more than $7.25 per hour, then make your labor worth more than $7.25 per hour. It’s a harsh reality of life that there are jobs to which no one really aspires, yet they have to be done. But it’s a fine reality of American life that you don’t have to do those jobs. You can aspire to more. But marching around outside the McDonald’s with a sign that reads “I’m lovin’ a living wage” is not going to make your aspirations come to fruition. If you want more money, you might want to think about getting back to work.

–Ben Crystal

Personal Liberty

Ben Crystal

is a 1993 graduate of Davidson College and has burned the better part of the last two decades getting over the damage done by modern-day higher education. He now lives in Savannah, Ga., where he has hosted an award-winning radio talk show and been featured as a political analyst for television. Currently a principal at Saltymoss Productions—a media company specializing in concept television and campaign production, speechwriting and media strategy—Ben has written numerous articles on the subjects of municipal authoritarianism, the economic fallacy of sin taxes and analyses of congressional abuses of power.

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  • independent thinker

    ” If you want more money, you might want to think about getting back to work.”
    Pretty much says it all.

    • $24100174

      you want to get paid $15/hr…go work for obama…

  • Harold Olsen

    I stopped eating at McDonald’s back in the early 70’s. Why? Because I have never gotten a hamburger from them that was properly cooked. Every hamburger I have ever bought from them was well cooked on the outside but totally raw on the inside.

    • vicki

      They have improved. Now the risk is getting it way overcooked :)

  • Chev James

    I am sorry, but there is a conspiracy in the fast food industry to keep wages low, while franchise owners and their corporate handlers rake in big bucks. NO American who is willing to work hard should receive starvation wages and benefits! The upper one percent is squeezing the bottom 99 percent, and your efforts to get us to disparage the legitimate quest of these fast food workers has utterly failed.

    • billybob

      You are making a social statement. No one goes into a business to lose money or just break even. It is their $100,000 or what ever that number is now, that buys the franchise not yours or the workers. It is an investment into their future. It is their retirement. Unless you have owned a business, I’m taking greek to you. I have all of the respect to small business owners. They don’t have weekends off like some of you think. They need to be right on top of things. Who pays for a machine that is broken. The fry cook? Who comes in at night to collect the money and do inventory for the next days business? Making sure things are being taken care of! AC goes out who has to call a repair person to come up after hours to have it fixed. You think a counter person will stay around until it gets fixed before they go home?
      Our country is in big trouble. There are no jobs for those who are coming out of college. I blame big government. To may rules and regulations, to much taxes and to many people on the free handouts. A very remarkable thing happens when the well runs dry. People either die of thrust or they find away to survive.
      To me welfare is like a drug that is being administrated by the government. We need to ween people off of it. I understand that I will get hate mail about the poor and those who haven’t any skills. Well everyone has an equal chance to make it here in America, dispite what the social welfare parsites say. The only thing stopping anyone is themselves. I’m speaking of those with an average IQ. Those who are mentally challanged can recieve help from the government.

      • Bill

        Good analogy, Billybob
        A good example of that are the Hispanic immigrants. The illegals seem to have a better work ethics than the natives. I see the same Hispanic guy working three jobs at three different fast foods and he runs an office cleaning service at night.
        What happened to the hard work and work ethic that our parents had

    • Darth_Venomous

      Oh, do shut up, child.

      Do you really think that there’s a career for everyone in the fast-food industry? That there’s a job for a lifetime flipping burgers or manning the fry station?

      You’re really a special kind of stupid, aren’t you?

      • Bill

        Good comment Darth

    • Bill

      Chev,
      Instead of working a low skilled fast food job and whining about the wages why not try finding a skill that pays better wages. Or, is that too much work.
      Things may come to those who wait but only the things left from those that hustle. Abraham Lincoln

    • vicki

      I’m sorry but that is irrelevant. If you don’t happen to like it you can start your own fast food franchise where you get to pay your employees what you think they are worth. After a few weeks you will understand.

      Or go broke.

  • Scifidave

    There is quite a bit of truth to the fact that franchise owners and McDonald’s upper management make extraordinary salaries by paying their workers subsistence wages and serving food of low nutritional value. Certainly a raise for workers would lower profits, and you’d better believe they’ll want to have none of that, but it would help the local economy and the workers.

    Make no mistake, working for McDonalds is a high pressure, demanding job, even though the skill levels are low, but it is an entry level job and our society would expect the workers to move on to better pay, higher skill jobs. The reality is that for a growing number of workers the jobs just aren’t there and the failure of public education to keep pace with changes makes it unlikely many will ever get better jobs despite their personal desires or efforts.

    $15 an hour is a pretty steep increase – too steep for my way of thinking – but an average (meaning many make a lot less) of $8.94 per hour is inhumane and patently unfair, given McDonald’s profitability. They could easily pay more, suffer lower profits and still make out like bandits.

    • Bill

      Yes, SciFi, things are tough.
      It is what it is and we just have to deal with it

    • vicki

      So go buy MacDonalds and pay the workers what YOU think they should get.

      • Scifidave

        I don’t eat at McDonalds. I prefer food that tastes good and is nutritious.

        • vicki

          So why are you attacking McDonalds? You could buy it and teach the workers to make food that tastes good and is nutritious. Of course you would have to work. But on bright side you would be teaching the workers skills that would allow them to get better paying jobs without having to cry to the politicians to force McDonalds into paying them more then they are currently worth.

          • Scifidave

            There is a huge difference between making a profit and being greedy. When you share the profits with your employees, such that you can make a good living and they can provide for their own needs without having to rely on government services, you do the country a great service.

            When you pay your people subsistence wages just so you can make more money and your employees must rely on government support to live, you are being greedy.

            McDonalds offers a product that millions of people like, even if it isn’t all the good for you. They also have savvy marketers who are paid to make you want to eat their products. Their entire set-up is efficient, productive and well managed. The company also offers their employees educational and training opportunities, if the employees choose to avail themselves of it and their store managers approve it.

            Overall I think McDonalds does what they do well. However, the turn over is high and a significant part of that, besides the employees themselves and the quality of the store managers, is pay and poor working conditions. It is a stressful, high demand, repetitive job.

            Because of McDs high profitability they can afford to pay their people better, offer full time positions and subsidize benefits, like health care. They choose not to for the sake of profits. In other words, their upper management and investors make out like bandits on the backs of their workers. The only word for that is greed.

            Don’t get me wrong. With the right education and self motivation someone could do well starting at McDs. Many kids do, but an ever increasing percentage of their work force are older people who got shortchanged by our capitalist system of greed and have little place else to turn.

            A good percentage of American companies take good care of their workers and are still profitable, yet a much larger percentage treat their workers as cogs in the machine – disposable. That is the issue that concerns me.

            For our economic system to work properly, for our gov’t to be less intrusive and the work force rewarded for their efficiency and productivity, business owners need to see the needs of their workers as just as important as their profits.

            Because of greed the wealth of our nation, instead of being shared equally among the classes (as it was pre-Reaganomics), as been unfairly accumulated by the top 1%, leaving far less to be shared by the people who actually do the work. Less for the workers means less money circulating in the local economies, which means higher unemployment, destruction of the small business base, more demand for gov’t services while revenues decline, a lower quality of life for millions and less economic opportunities.

            We’ve seen the results of that as all quality of life indicators continue to fall in America while remaining stable in countries that are worker friendly. Education has become prohibitively costly and upward mobility has declined.

            Look. This isn’t rocket science. You don’t need a college education to understand this.

            Simple truth: You pay the work force a living wage with real world benefits and we all make out better. You don’t and we get what we have: a dysfunctional system that unfairly rewards greed.

  • Gib74

    I thought the whole reason to study in school was so you could avoid 7.50 an hour jobs??

    Guess they should have paid more attention in school. But once again, how is that my problem that they messed around instead??

    • billybob

      Indirectly it becomes our problem,because our goernment will supply them with food stamps, low income housing, free phones and free health care. We wind up paying for it in our taxes.

      • vicki

        The focus then should be in shrinking government “social” programs.

    • Karolyn

      The $7.50 jobs are the only ones available! It doesn’t matter what grades somebody got. The top of the heap is working at the same places as the bottom of the barrel.

      • Bill

        Karolyn,
        My wife’s grand daughter is one year out of college and she just landed a $60,000 a year job. But then again, she was always taught how to work hard and she not afraid to hustle. She also did that two months after having a baby.
        Quit your whining and get off your butt

        • Karolyn

          She’s one of the lucky ones and must live in a good area. Of course, her age is a bonus. i feel for the middle-aged people and older who have been out of work for years. I am NOT whining; and I can sit on my butt all I want after working for 50 years! Not that I do. I AM a hustler and have been my whole life. I also have lived my life on my own terms, doing what I really wanted to do and have never gone hungry. I just cannot abide greed and lack of respect and support for one’s fellow man. It seems as though most of the people who really want to help others are always poor.

          • Bill

            Karolyn,
            There was no luck involved. It is your choice to live where you live and do what you do

      • Gib74

        They’re FAR from the only things available.

        Go out, get a skillset that employers desire or in an expanding field and get to them.

        Before my current job I was looking to move to North Dakota and work in the oil fields. LONG hours and it would not have been my ideal winter spot, but the pay is still GREAT until the great destroyer gets around to killing another of the American industries.

        Until then I’m not going to lose sleep if folks need to learn how to sing ‘DING, fries are done’.

        Unless they’re caroling…=O

        • Sonya A. Willis

          Also in North Dakota because there is competition for workers, employers have to pay more to get and keep them including McDonalds.

          • vicki

            Shhhh. you said the “c” word. Liberals seem to hate that word

          • Gib74

            It’s what the market will bear.

            The owners of those McDonalds aren’t being forced to pay either being the big point.

            That’s what they think the position is worth in the area.

      • vicki

        And forcing businesses to pay more then the job is worth is a good way to break the business. Then again that seems to have been the obama strategy all along.

  • Mith Radates

    Working at McD’s is not easy, at least it wasn’t when I made $1.00 an hour at one of the first ones in Ohio. The emphasis on quality and diligence taught me a lot about what it takes to do well. Those lessons served me well in the 50 years since. All the people I worked with those summers during high school had the attitude that they wanted to do well, but move up and on to better jobs. I still eat there occasionally, and the demeanor of the workers seems to not reflect the same attitude. Maybe, lacking ambition to work hard enough and well enough to move on and up, they figure to blackmail (that’s what strikes and walkouts are) franchisees into giving them more money for the same work.

    • Dwimby

      Compared to 50 years ago (and I was a teenager when McDonald’s opened and seemed revolutionary, which it was) we are now in a different country with different mores. In many respects our young people are not seeing the same kind of role models we had then, like the truly amazing generation that won WW2, who came home and brought such courage and character to our masses, who then were also hard workers willing to sacrifice in a “we’re all on the same team” kinda way. The issues you touch on are complex and multi-faceted. One thing that jumps out at me is that 50 years ago making $1 per hour could get you thru college or junior college with NO DEBT. And now, $7.50 can’t. Now we reward executives who make gigantic mistakes, bankrupt their companies, and get away with being rewarded for the labors of the hordes of workers beneath them. There is something inherently wrong with this modern status quo. Last night I walked thru a mall (on Labor Day) and saw lots of young people working after hours diligently stocking the shelves that ultimately, the labor for which, would hugely benefit the managerial class disproportionally to those young workers actually doing the work. It jumped out at me as I saw so many kids working with attention to detail and interest. A sense of quiet desperation entered my head on behalf of all these diligent youngsters. At 7PM on a holiday these kids were doing their best, but those who would be rewarded significantly were not these same young people, but those who were flying back to their corporate offices after a long weekend away in St. Barts. As a kid who worked all his youth too, I now am of the opinion that these young people do deserve much better wages and they also deserve to get thru college without any accumulated debt like I did. As stated these are complex considerations, but one conclusion is, we are dealing our kids very bad cards. Those who do work in whatever menial tasks that so many of us have do deserve more than we are giving them, more than they are getting. And we must find a way also to allow our native born children, citizens above all, get thru their higher education with much less or no debt. We have allowed a bogus, reward-the-few system to take over our children’s lives and after decades of this perverse methodology we don’t remember what actually made so much sense only a half century ago. We need some of the same old morality again, I think, and we need some of the role models of 50 years ago to materialize again and give some direction in this new crazy world we live in and to stand up for our kids and help them along in a more humane and thoughtful way. If you are old like I am and have seen the other more equitable way things were done, particularly in the post war years, we are treating our children terribly, shabbily. And when they are willing to work, we do not compensate them correctly. $7.50/hour today is much less than $1/hour 50 years ago. We must pay our young, starting out, common workers more. They make everything work, not those execs coming home from St Barts in their Gulfstreams. These elites are no better than those who accepted so much less in decades gone by, as if they actually could be. There is a pathos in how we treat workers today that must be and could be corrected, even if minimally. It would lift us all up. Munificently rewarding the few for the labors of the many is not really who we are, not even in the confusing multi-culti jumble we have become. The elite must accept something less and the workers deserve something more. Going back a bit to get to our future would not destroy what we are trying to cling to, it might even give it all a boost.

      • denise0513

        While I can agree to most of what you said, there is still one problem that too many people refuse to see. When minimum wage is increased, the price of products and services also increase. The increase in the cost of products and services negates the increase in minimum wage. Basically, no one benefits from the increase in minimum wage. As far as CEO’s and management goes, we cannot regulate morality and common sense. I cringe every time reports come out about the obscene amount of bonuses CEO’s and upper management receive. Yes, it is obscene. However, until the CEO’s and upper management see their greed, nothing will change. We must put blame for their bonuses where it belongs; in the boardroom.

        • Karolyn

          It doesn’t matter; prices will increase anyway, whether wages are raised or not.

          • vicki

            prices only increase where there is a market for the product at the higher price. Also with competition stifled by government over regulation the pressure to keep prices down becomes weaker.

          • denise0513

            Maybe so but they will DEFINITELY rise with an increase in minimum wage!

        • Grayson

          Denise; you make a very good observation to the situation regarding minimum wages in the first part of your statement. A CEO’s wage has absolutely nothing to do with morality, and everything to do with common sense. Your statement falls apart when you attack management/corporate pay as being obscene. The trap of “corporate greed” is an easy one to fall in. Don’t cheapen your first statement with a crummy follow up bit on the higher ups. Remember, it’s stupidity that we can’t regulate. :)

          • Bill

            Grayson,
            A famous philosopher once said “Life is tough, It is even tougher if you are stupid”

          • Bob666

            Willie,
            That has to be only post of relevance that you have made in three days.

          • Bill

            Bobby,
            It applies to you.

          • Bob666

            Willie,
            You even lack imagination in your insults.

      • billybob

        Fifty years ago our dollar was worth .50 cents. Now it is worth .37 cents or less and dropping with the government pumping money out like it is pop corn. I’m retired and I can feel the pinch in my purchasing power. Just buying food is an extra expense now days. The problem is not how much we pay people, but how much our government is spending. Get rid of the spending and we have less taxes to pay to the government who supports a great portion of our population. Go back to the agreements that were made by the government. They stole our Social Security and are still doing it today. Make them pay what they took back instead of giving us IOU’s, It is why we have inflation. The money is becoming worthless. It doesn’t take a genius to figure out why gold is rising in the world and why our dollars are sinking. It has a global effect. They took away the gold Standard and they have been on a spending binge ever since. In the early sixties I worked as a labor and was making $1.65 hour. I thought I was rich. Food prices have gone up in some cases 2000% It is the same food, but the cost for producting it has gone up. The mindset of this government has been to get the people to depend upon the government for their needs. What did they do 100 years ago? It was before taxes and Social Security. The government was small and people lived much better than we do today. It was a much simpler life. Perhaps as we evolve we cause our own problems of a much more complicated life. I personally think that a ten year old could probably do well without a $400 phone or that a kid from the city could do just as well without $400 tennis shoes. We live in a society where everything has to be new or the latest. Really??

      • Todd Ewing

        How do you know that every CEO/Manager/owner flew to saint Barts or any other destination this weekend and left their business in the hands of teenage workers? That is making an assumption based on your own bias against anyone having wealth.

        Higher education costs have gone up, because of government assistance and meddling where it has no business being involved at all. Universities charge more because they can get more out government loans and grants than they did when you went to college, and the government gets it money from taxpayers like you and me. I work at a major Midwest University and I see what goes on every year colleges charge more and more because the government pays more and more. That ends up leaving out most kids whose grades are not perfect, or leaves them with so much debt that they cannot pay off.

        As far as deserving more or taking less, if the board of a company thinks that the CEO is worth “X” amount of dollars that is what they will pay them. You or I may think that is stupid but that is the way the system works. When government starts setting salary or hourly wages the system collapses into price controls and most go underground to buy what they need to get it cheaper…free market principles work every time.

        redistribution does not work, period…ever…

      • WFreeman

        Baloney- employees are paid what they’re worth- no sob story will change that. If they want more, make themselves WORTH more. Thats easy. Lots of people have done it. I’m not willing to pay $8.00 for a Big Mac. Looking at it as class warfare doesn’t help. If you want the money and the flight to St. Barts- earn it.

  • Flashy

    McDs CEO gave himself a $14 million raise and overall Exec raises equalled over $25 million. Prices did not go up one penny. And how much concern on shareholder return do you think went into that decision?

    The working force used what power they had … and NOW shareholder return and prices are a concern to deny employees a share of the success ?

    Only those against America would say the employees were wrong in this fight.

    • gillybob

      McDonalds is a frachise company. They sell franchises. The stores are owned buy private individuals. McDonalds sells the stores their products. Who care what the guy gave himself. And by the way He doesn’t have the authority to give himself anything. It is a public trading company and he has aboard of directors to answer to! I believe that you are worth what ever the last person is willing to pay you! In this country you can move to any job you can convince them you qualify for. I don’t know what skiils you need to pour a drink or hand a plate over the counter or for that matter put pototoes into the fryer or flip a burger. Until the government take over Mc Donalds I think the owners have a right to decide what the pay their employees. The government has already imposed their will and made a minimum wage law so why do people think they should get more other than they wany it. Do what we have been doing for centuries. Get a better skill or education and in this world it has a value.That turns into more money.

      • Bill

        Good comment, GillyBob,
        It is also about supply and demand. When you have more people applying for the same job, the value is diminished

    • Bill

      Flashy,
      What a dumb comment, but, consider the source

      • Karolyn

        Not dumb at all. It’s all true. Why should a CEO get so much when his worth is based on the production of the little people of McDonalds? Why should they not share in the wealth. Just how much money is enough? These CEOs could never spend all of their money in a lifetime (unless they generously gave a lot away!).

        • Bill

          I’ll tell you what you do, Karolyn and Flashy,
          Put up your own money and open your own fast food restaurant. Then you can pay your workers whatever you want

  • Chester

    All I have to say about this is that those who complain the low wage workers should be glad to take that wage and not want more from that employer have never worked at those so-called entry level jobs. There is a lot more skill demanded from a line worker in McDonalds than from some middle level manager sitting on his backside shuffling papers and writing reports that say nothing and mean even less.

    • Bill

      Chester,
      Most all of us started out at low paying entry level jobs. But it was our choice to move on to something else

      • Chester

        Yes, Bill, that is true, to a certain extent. Now, there is no place for a lot of these people to move on to. Also, if you are near my age, minimum wage did stand a decent chance of supporting you, and a small family, That is no longer true. In fact, the fifteen dollars an hour being asked for will barely support the worker, IF they have a forty hour a week job. Take a look at what it costs to rent even an efficiency apartment, then what the utilities are going to be, and tell us how well you could make out on a take home in the area of four hundred a week, especially if you had to live any distance from where you worked.

    • Gib74

      I was there at McD as well as Taco Bell.

      No there’s not……………..

  • DMH0577

    Chester and Flashy…I am not against America and I disagree with you 100%. Where is this inflated sense of self worth coming from? I am an RN with a baccalaureate and 10 years of experience the last 4 in Neurosurgical ICU. I earn 24.65 base pay. A fry cook earning 15 bucks an hour is an insult to every person paying off a college loan! You claim shuffling papers is easy…do it and make more money…or are you not qualified? Just because you don’t understand the reports don’t mean they are meaningless.

    • flashy

      DMH…all I pointed out was this ” its for the shareholders and keeping prices competitive” nonsense is just that …nondense spouted for idiots to believe. Anyone spouting that line of pure BS is either ignorant or unAmerican given the increases McDs Execs gave themselves.

      America relies on a strong middle class. Period, end of sentence. one is against the American worker being able to better their income and way of life is inarguably anti US.

      If it truly were the case of financial hardship, I’d argue the execs and CEO didn’t merit those increases.

      A corporation has obligations above that of making a few execs wealthier and shareholder dividends increasing each year. Think about that.

      • Grayson

        America relies on people who hold American beliefs. A strong middle class is the result of a healthy economy. Idiotic socialist policies and record government growth is what contributed to the current situation regarding our middle class! There IS NO argument regarding CEO/EXEC pay. Was Michael Jordan or The Beatles over payed? They’re all payed based on what we’re willing to pay them! I sir, am not fooled by your bitter attempt to make sense of complete non-sense!

      • WFreeman

        OBLIGATIONS? They do?
        The CEOs merit EXACTLY what they get- Just as the shareholders have decided. Who’s to decide other than the shareholders? ITS THE NATURE OF CAPITALISM.

        As long as the shareholders are happy and the corp abides by the law- they have no other obligations- They are not tools of the socialists for spreading the wealth- YET. IF YOU WANT SOCIALISM, JUST SAY SO. And- if you want the execs to be given $15.00 an hour too, become a shareholder.

  • Verland Gilliam

    Ben Crystal, I think what you have done was to spell out the fallacies of our Democracy. You must know that no one can live on minimum wage in this country, which is certainly justification for demanding higher wages. However, you do mention that if a person wants more then he/she should make use of their time to qualify for more; at least that is the way I understood your comment. So, here is the problem; a lot of people cannot afford college and consequently never attend. Understand, I said cannot afford; not they would not like to attend but merely give up the idea because it costs too much. And the very reason it costs too much is because of the fact we have Democracy that we have to maintain. Not making much sense, huh? Well, the fact of the matter is, a Democracy FORCES people to be LESS than they can be simply because we cannot all be governors, corporate heads, presidents, etc. We live in a ‘class level’ society, and therefore we must have those burger flippers, grass cutters, and garbage haulers, to service all those class levels above. We have high tuition costs to PREVENT everyone from gaining a higher degree of education. We have picayune laws that are easily violated to keep a majority of people FROM progressing because of their now so-called criminal record. If everyone was given an EQUAL opportunity to advance up the ladder, we would soon run out of rungs on which to climb, or we will be a lot like Germany right now that has individuals with business degrees, law degrees, and some with medical degrees, that are actually driving buses, working in restaurants, and other menial type jobs. That sounds like an awful waste of talent, but believe it or not, most Germans have a higher standard of living than the average American. The point here is simple; those burger flippers that you’re talking about deserve to be able to live in a decent home and drive a decent car and be able to afford to send their children to all the extra curricular activities that the rich folks seem to be so ‘entitled’ to. If that means MacDonalds should serve a higher class meal for more money then let them do it. If they have to serve trash food just to employ those who have not been given an equal chance in life then a better solution would be to stop populating the world. I think it is better to have better food and better salary, don’t you? Served by better educated people that may someday be able to transfer to a better job. Don’t you agree? Our government officials go all over the world trying to hand their ideas (seeds) to further Democracy; while promising them freedom to be all they can be, but in reality, what they mean is, ‘they can be all the government or super rich will allow them to be, and do it with a false sense of ‘hope’ and ‘security’. Of course, all this begs the question; ‘what do we have as an alternative, better solution. A Dictatorship that demands freedom for all people; demands that all people advance through their highest possible level of education, demands that all food be nutritional; demands that all automobiles be safe and that all people be provided sufficient salaries to sustain a nice home and automobile; demands that all people be afforded a vacation from work at least for 2 weeks a year. These are just highlights and the only other thing that is important to be highlighted here is that, a board of trustees be set up to make sure the Dictator doesn’t go crazy with power. But for our system to pay football coaches millions of dollars a year while paying our U.S. President a mere 400K is insane. Our teachers (real teachers) cannot make even 25% in a lifetime, what our coaches make in a year. Professional football and baseball and basketball players making millions upon millions while we have people starving in the streets; veterans that have fought for our freedoms are sometimes treated like dirt, jobless, poverty stricken, and living one day at a time in half way houses or on the streets scavenging for food from the rich man’s garbage. I am not against being rich, but no one deserves multi million dollar salaries, and no one should be allowed to amass hundreds of millions and even billions of dollars while we cannot afford an education for some of our children, and starving veterans walking the streets. Democracy sucks !

    • Mith Radates

      V.G.: Boy, you have NO idea of supply and demand principles or value determination or operation of the marketplace or the realities of political systems, do you? Entertaining emotional rant, but meaningless.

      • Verland Gilliam

        Supply and demand principles, value determination, operation of the marketplace, and political systems are all CREATED ! Needs are inherent.

        • Bill

          A famous philosopher wrote a song that said “You can’t always get what you want

          • Karolyn

            Yes you can, if you want it bad enough.

    • oldguy

      What a delusional piece of worthless verbiage. I’ll bet you think of yourself as a mental giant. You Sir, are a legend in your own mind. When you change your thinking to reflect the reality that we are a Republic and not a Democracy then maybe you’ll be able to get in on the ground floor of reality. You have no sense of history or reality. Climb down off your self built pedestal. You don’t belong there.

      • Verland Gilliam

        Well, I’m certainly glad I stirred you up a little. I am not going to praise or condemn your views, for then I really would be putting myself on a pedestal of which you obviously belong. hmmmnn?

    • Bill

      Verland,
      Education will not get you a job. Attitude and work ethic will.

      • Alan

        An idiot with a degree is still an idiot.

        • Bill

          Good analogy, Alan

        • Gib74

          Sadly, WAY too many of them are in our government. = [

          • Alan

            Very true, they couldn’t get a real job.

      • Verland Gilliam

        Uneducated people, do not know what work ethics or proper attitudes are in their effort to obtain employment.

        • Bill

          Verland,
          Have you ever thought that your problems are created by yourself because you live in a fantasy world. A plumber will make more money than a college graduate any day of the week

        • Rob Huckfeldt

          Please define ‘uneducated’. I was promoted twice with just a high school diploma. Now, after 15 years at one job (plant closed) and 6 at the next (illness cost that job) plus 3 years of college and an associates degree I can hardly get anything but production through a temp agency at only about 1 dollar more than McDonalds. I have the same ethics and work attitude that got the promotions. There’s just so few jobs out there that pay is way down.

          • Gimmesumadat Whatyougot

            I hear you R.H.

            I wish I had good news to tell. (Without getting religious) But, when George H Bush declared a “New World Order” was about to be rolled out, he meant it! His cabinet member Mr. Kissinger was an advocate of the NWO for decades prior.

            With groups like the “Council of Foreign Relation”, the “U.N.”, the “Trilaterals”, the “Bilderberg’s”, the US has been systematically dismantled. Both economically, and socially. 90% of the members of these groups sit on the boards of the most powerful Banking, Military, Development, and Media corporations and in the world.

            President Eisenhower carefully explained the danger that was eminent within the Industrial-Military Complex following the cold war. He might as well have been a prophet! Everything he declared could happen, did happen.

            President Kennedy also warned of ‘Secret Societies and “Covert” Operations within the US. Just You-tube “the speech that got kennedy killed”.

            For a greater understanding, check out “Invisible Empire: A New World Order Defined” here: http://youtu.be/i4CRiE7_Q4Y

            Here’s to hope for the future!

          • Jana

            Everyone wants to go online to fill out their applications. Go in person.
            A lot of people think some jobs are beneath them. They aren’t if you really want to work.
            Create your own job. Find a need a fill it.

            My husband worked 3 part time jobs so I would be home for our children. I could have easily gone to work but our children would have suffered for it. After all our children need a parent at home with them to talk to and be there for them. Our home became a place where a lot of kids would come home to after school. Why? Because there was a mother at home who cared.

          • Karolyn

            Many companies will not even take applications offline.
            Also, even if you do fill out an app., getting an interview is another story.

            You were very fortunate, Jana, to be able to stay home. My mother did too until my father got hurt and then when we got a little older, she went back again.. One of my biggest memories of my parents was listening to them argue over money.

          • Jana

            My husband and I rarely argue. We also are pretty much debt free except for utilities and groceries. We do drive older cars but they are nice cars and they get good gas mileage. We do keep them up. I consider myself blessed. We save up to buy what we want to keep us debt free. Now that my husband has a good job we spend the evenings together as a family and go for walks and enjoy ourselves together, watch tv and also have family time with our girls even though they are growing up and leaving our nest boo hoo.

          • Karolyn

            Sounds like a lovely life, Jana. Good for you. I lived my life as somewhat of a rebel, which I do not regret; but now I am alone other than my friends and my dogs. I’m not complaining, though. I lived as I wanted to. Life is good, and everything always works out, no matter what the circumstances.

          • Rob Huckfeldt

            Many places ONLY let you apply online these days. It’s the ‘green’ thing to do. Go paperless. It does absolutley no good to go in, you will never see a hiring manager. They hide in their office because of the number of people looking for work.

        • Bill

          Verland,
          My friend never went to collage and he built his small janitorial business into the largest one in his city. He currently employs over eighty employees. Not only does he treat his employees well but he invests his extra cash into houses that he rents to his employees for under market rents.

          • Karolyn

            He is someone to be admired. Would that there were many more like him.

        • Richard

          Verland-

          Nonsense! Many people are uneducated through lack of opportunity, not attitude or stupidity.

          My fatherm during the great depression, had to drop out of school in the 5th grade to help support his family by working full time at whatever job he could get and whatever wage he could make. Despite having no formal education, he had an exceptionally high IQ, educated himself, and wound up a NYC Fire Commissioner.

          Spend some time in third world countries where education is difficult to obtain, and learn how wise and how wise, honorable, and hard working some uneducated people can be. There is much we can learn form them.

          You attack on the uneducated shows your own lack of education in the school of life.

        • Gib74

          Reeeeaaaaaaaaaaaaly?

          I’ve been beyond ‘gainfully employeed’ for over a decade with companies always knocking at my door whenever I turn around due to how well I’m known in my field and my work experience / ethic.

          And I DO NOT have a university degree since I dropped out after a few years of listening to the same liberal garbage that was spewed out. After my last literature teacher gave me flying colors for writing all my papers saying how women were useless if they were models, they just used their bodies since they didn’t have a mind. I pegged him off the bat as a fat, insecure 50 year-old virgin type with a chip on his shoulder.

          After I saw how useless most of the classes being offered were I picked up a few (LOTS OF) books and went into telecom. Then I learned how to make my networks dance.

          I rutinely put in 13-18 hr shifts getting projects taken care of and would rather be 30 minutes early somewhere than 2 minutes late.

          So how is it again I don’t have the proper attitude or work etheic?

      • topmah

        Exactly! My dgtr won every award imaginable in school, was always in the ‘gifted’ classes & one would’ve expected her to just love college, but that was not the case–one day she called, said she was sitting in a worthless class that was a total waste of time & that she could be out working. The outcome? She left school & within days won out over a recent college grad for a job with a salary far in excess of all her college friends–as you pointed out, it wasn’t a degree but ‘attitude and work ethic’ that gave her that $75,000 annual pay. Those two attributes are worth their weight in gold & it’s for sure she wouldn’t have had her success by parading around with a sign demanding more $$$…

        • Bill

          Good comment, Topmah.
          Imagine you were an employer. And two people applied for the same job. One said I have a college degree and I want this and I want that. The second one said I have no degree but I will work harder than anyone else and I understand that my labor has to produce something for you to make a profit.
          Who would you hire?

          • topmah

            Bill, so true! I’ve found that many folks with a degree do approach a job with the attitude you mention. Society has taught that a degree is your ticket to success but they’ve failed to add the caveat that hard work is the key component to that success…

      • Rob Huckfeldt

        Attitude and work ethic will only help you get a job. I don’t agree with anywhere near this wage for fast food jobs, but you can;t ignore all those put out of work in the last few years fighting for a lesser number of jobs. Simple supply and demand and corporate America is eating it up, according to their plan.

        • Bill

          Rob,
          We have seen many times in the past what creates jobs and strong economies. And the current people in power are doing exactly the opposite.
          It seem to me the answer is to create a strong economy where everyone is working and jobs are plentiful.

          • Don 2

            Bill, no fair making sense.

    • Karolyn

      It all boils down to greed and a lack of sharing the wealth mentality in this country. CEOs’ salaries have gone thru the roof. Why not increase the salaries of the workers who do all the work that CEO takes the credit for and decrease the CEO’s salary? It is very sad indeed that while so many buy $35 million yachts, there are people in Appalachia and on the Indian reservations living in shacks.

      • Todd Ewing

        Who do you think builds the 35 million dollar yachts? IS it the CEO’s or the skilled and unskilled laborers? Who is it that risks their fortunes and many times their family to start and maintain these companies? The wealthy should be doing more with their wealth than just sitting on it, but even if they do they are still paying people for their labor and skills.

      • Grayson

        Sharing the wealth? Who has told you that you cannot be a CEO, or own your very own $35 million dollar yacht? How is a CEO any different than an athlete or actor that makes millions of dollars? It’s based on principles that you clearly don’t understand. Envy and class warfare improved the World nowhere!

        • Karolyn

          Envy and class warfare have nothing to do with fairness and wanting the best for your fellow man. After all, we are all brothers. Greed and greed for power are the biggest problems this nation faces. Unfortunately, our society is too materialistic. I had a friend who had a greedy mother to whom she said: “Did you ever see a U-Haul pulled by a hearse?” You can’t take it with you!

          • Don 2

            I have never understood why it is “greed” to want to keep the money you’ve earned, but not greed to want to take somebody else’s money. ~ Thomas Sowell

          • Bill

            Good comment, Don

          • Karolyn

            Nobody is talking about taking. I’m talking about compassion and doing what is right. It is a question of morality and decency. It’s about what this country has come to – “me, me, me.” When I was working in the nonprofit world, I learned that most of the giving is not done by the rich.

          • Richard

            The issue is how much did they “earn”. For example, the Walmart heirs, reported to own up to 40% of the nation’s wealth (not sure if those numbers are true), created little themselves, have everything they could possibly want, yet begrudge the employees who work for the a living wage and benefits that should be standard.

            One of the great industrialists and a true American icon, Henry Ford, understood that if he was to succeed he must pay his workers a salary that can support their families and allow them to buy the product they make.

            What a lot of people do not understand is that we, the public, actually support the low wages and the accumulation of unearned wealth by the upper crust through our tax money that provides food stamps and other support for workers who do not earn enough.

            There has been, indeed, a redistribution of over recent decades. The flow of “treasure from the middle and working classes to the rich has been tremendous. Their having “earned” it is an illusion. They use financial gimmicks, clever accounting, off shore tax shelters, and boards of directors they all sit on and vote each other ever higher compensation packages while sticking it to the workers who earn it for them.

            This is not a socialist perception but a recognition of an economic reality.

            The moral issue is “How much is enough”.

            I remember visiting India and seeing palatial estates of the very rich surrounded by people living in cardboard shacks drinking from open sewers. When the rich boys exited their walled estates in their Lamborghinis they thought the world was right because some ancestor screwed over the masses. Is that what we want here?

            Why do you think our forefathers had a revolution in the first place? Why do you think the French overthrew their nobility?

          • Karolyn

            Amen! I know a guy who lived near old man Walton. He lived in a modest home, and the men used to gather around the stove in his garage to bs. He was a very unassuming person who didn’t purchase much. His wife bought them both a Cadillac, and if it weren’t for her, he probably would have driven an old Chevy.
            Regarding Walmart, they are so cheap they not only underpay their employees but don’t even have enough working to insure that their stores run properly anymore. WalMart is not what it used to be. If it weren’t the only place around here to purchase certain grocery items, I wouldn’t go there at all.

          • Bill

            Karolyn,
            Isn’t that kind of hypocritical to complain about Wal Mart, but still shop there.
            They are one of the most well run companies in the world

          • Karolyn

            They may be well-run as far as the bottom line goes, but because they understaff, customer service sucks; and the shelves are not stocked. I do not have much choice of where to shop, living in a rural area with little variety to choose from.

          • Bill

            Richard,
            Just don’t patronize Wal Mart, end of story

          • Don 2

            Richard,
            Who decides how much is enough…..some politician? Believe me, I despise Walmart stores in general(always the same old crap), but it is the politicians who sent the jobs overseas and created this mess. The one thing that the Founders did not anticipate were career politicians. They thought these guys would spend a couple of years in government and want to get back to their farms and businesses. Term limits should have been written into the Constitution.

          • Karolyn

            WRONG! You just don’t get it. I do not believe in unlimited welfare, and I hate it as much as anybody when people take advantage of the system. There is a middle-of-the-road answer. And I would have no problem if I had the money to have a gold watch, giving it up to help someone else. I do not crave possessions or hold on to anything. “Stuff’ means nothing.

          • Don 2

            Karolyn,
            I am all for helping those in need of help. I do not believe in helping those who are lazy.

          • Grayson

            HEAR HERE!!!

          • Gib74

            After I ran into a group of your socialist ‘friends’ in Frankfurt almost five years ago, I’ll care what you say about ‘fairness’ again.

            They had a big parade going through one of the streets by the train station that day the German police had to block off traffic for. There was this great big, brand-new Ford F-950 truck pulling their float that said ‘Outlaw Possessions’ with all of you swarming around it and on the streets.

            When one of the guys came up to me, he tried to explain to me how possessions are the root of the world’s evils and I should give everything I work for to their group to distribute to those who needed it more than I did. ‘It was the right thing to do’.

            So, I told him I would think about it and shook his hand as he was going to talk to some of the other folks laughing at the little parade on the road as well.

            He objected to it when I started trying to take off his nice new gold watch. He objected even more when I told him I was helping him to ‘outlaw possessions’.

            I guess you folks mean that you want to outlaw OUR possessions, but hands off YOUR sh**??

          • Grayson

            Karolyn, I know that we are all Brothers and Sisters… what does that have to do with “fairness”? Was it “fair” for Michael Jordan to dominate the basketball court and make millions of dollars? Don’t you understand what is really going on here? Your negative projection of CEO’s/Managers/Business Owners are all lumped into your “hate pot” based on someone else’s crappy experience. You do realize that business owners are the ones who create ALL of the jobs. Again, I ask you… Why aren’t you a CEO? Don’t you want to increase your personal wealth and contribute more for the betterment of your fellow man? I certainly put my pants on one leg at a time… just like a CEO would. Who am I to judge another person for their desire to have nice things, or a big home in The Hampton’s? Who are you to judge that? This WRONG THINKING and hateful bit that you use to attack CEO’s as “greedy and power hungry because they’re wealthy and I’m not” routine is VERY unbecoming. The 1%ers happen to be shouldering 45% of our total tax burdens! Have you had the opportunity to contribute 45% of your paycheck to Uncle Sam before? I await your reply.

          • Karolyn

            I have never wanted to be a CEO. A large part of my working life was spent in self employment in the antiques business and housecleaning and in nonprofit arts, addiction and violence against women. I am working on methods to create more wealth for myself involving my writing. The only reason I would like to make a lot of money is so I can contribute more to my favorite causes.
            And, yes, they are greedy, and it has nothing to do with what I have or don’t have. It just is.

          • Bill

            Karolyn,
            Buy the book “Chose Yourself” by James Altucher. It will show you how to be self employed with a low overhead

        • Bill

          Great comments, Grayson,
          You do not help the poor by tearing down the rich

      • Bill

        Karolyn,
        It has all boiled down to the fact that the lefts economic policies are a failure and that is why you have a lot of dogs scrambling for a small amount of bones.
        Blaming the rich is a waste of your time. The power is within you to create your own destiny

        • Karolyn

          I have always believed that anyone can have whatever they want if they want it bad enough. However, not everyone is capable of this fact intellectually.

          • Jana

            So being nice little Socialists we are supposed to make it happen.

            WRONG!!!

          • Karolyn

            Would you have us return to the days of the poor house? As it is, there are cities outlawing the homeless in their downtowns. What’s to be done? Those of us who care do help others, but I guess there are just not enough who care. The only real solution lies in education, with dedicated teachers who want to make a difference. I’ve seen stories on isolated schools with comprehensive programs in poor areas that are making a difference. There are just not enough of them.

          • Jana

            Always the same old mantra of ” Would you have us return to the days of the poor house?” or slavery or whatever it is we are talking about. Of course not. What is wrong with people taking responsibility for themselves for a change?
            Teachers are great IF they are real teachers. not what the political correct have manufactured. We have too many supposed teachers that are either teaching socialism now or the good ones are being hushed up and told what to teach.

          • Jana

            Always the same old mantra of ” Would you have us return to the days of the poor house?” or slavery or whatever it is we are talking about. Of course not. What is wrong with people taking responsibility for themselves for a change?
            Teachers are great IF they are real teachers. not what the political correct have manufactured. We have too many supposed teachers that are either teaching socialism now or the good ones are being hushed up and told what to teach.

          • Karolyn

            There are many who do take responsibility for themselves and, via government-funded programs, (which you don’t like) pull themselves out of their situations. The school I attend has a huge nursing program, and most of the students are there on Pell Grants. Without them, these people would have little to no chance of improving their lives. I admire the single mothers who work, raise their kids and go to school. Unfortunately, there are many who just are not capable. Should we just let them live in shanty towns like during the 30s? The “mantra” is certainly applicable here.
            You are right about teachers. Many don’t even teach anymore but leave it to computer programs. I listened to an interview on NPR about how many countries that do not focus on internet learning have far better students than we do because the teachers still teach. I believe students should be taught, starting at a young age, how to live a good moral life, since so many do not receive that training at home.

          • Jana

            Karolyn, I agree with everything you said except the part about the government funded programs helping people to improve their lives that I don’t like it. To the contrary, I do like that. This is one of the good things about these programs. They are giving people a hand up not a hand out.

            The programs I don’t like are the ones that encourage people NOT to work or even try to better themselves, ie: permanent welfare. They need to have limits on welfare. It is not any shame about being poor, but there is a major shame about not trying to do something to better yourself and get out of poverty.

            You stated, ” The school I attend has a huge nursing program, and most of the students are there on Pell Grants. I thought you said before that you were now retired. Are you going back to school? If you are, good for you.

          • Karolyn

            I went back 3 years ago and will be getting my AA in December if I manage to get through Math 110!
            Not bad for an old lady! It has helped my memory and has been good being around young people, although the school has a large older student population. I am probably the oldest women there.

            Many states do have Welfare limits. I believe in SC people can only collect for a certain amount of time within 3 years. I had looked up the state requirements some time ago but can’t remember them. Some states are much more lenient. The problem is that the cheats just move to another state when their time is up. We are close to the NC border here, so they just move with their herd to NC. I was told last year about 2 sisters who each have like 8-10 kids, whose mother and grandmother also had a bunch. When their welfare ran out, they moved over the border.

          • Bob666

            Yo Karolyn,
            A statistic for you, The fastest growing demographic group in the last ten years?

            Women over fifty-years old living below the poverty level.

          • wagontrain

            Well good for you.

          • Grayson

            Karolyn, it appears that government is the only solution to every problem in your world. The answer is PARENTS teaching their children. Teachers need to teach kids HOW to think, NOT WHAT to think!

          • Bill

            Grayson,
            That is too easy. We have to all be victims and blame someone else for our problems.

    • Vaughn Monti

      We are not a democracy. We are constitutional republic.

      • rivahmitch

        and thank God for it. Semper Fi!

    • Gimmesumadat Whatyougot

      Good Call V.G. I recently went fishing on a somewhat “select” lake close to where I live. On the waterfront, the property goes for $10,000 a running foot of shoreline. And then some! Some pieces of property are 1/2 mile long!

      Anyway, while trolling along the shoreline, we come to a piece of property where the land and home is just gorgeous. They had knocked down a second house to expand their property and build a beautiful pool house. Not to mention the boat lift(s), ski boat and vintage Chris-Craft. This property goes for $2.5 to $3 Million.

      Oh, and did I mention, the owner of this house owns 3 McDonald’s.
      I would say that the McDonald’s Corporation, and it’s operators have amassed a rather LARGE FORTUNE, all the while skimping on quality, and forcing the pay-scale of their employees to make less income than their Lawn Maintenance and Maid Service. Or maybe they’re one and the same!

      And talk about “skilled” worker’s pay. The Illinois road crew worker, who drives the roller or paver, get $80. per hour. That’s $640.00 a day, or $3,200.00 a week. Plus benefits. Without overtime.

      Since more part-time jobs with-out benefits are the “new” norm, how will we ever find competitive jobs that offer competitive wages? The largest export of the US… is garbage, waste products. The second largest export… is military equipment. I’m guessing the third largest export… is jobs!

      Things aren’t getting any better.

      • Bill

        Gimme,
        If you don’t agree with how McDonalds run their business, don’t buy their burgers and don’t work there

        • Gimmesumadat Whatyougot

          Bill, sometimes an easy answer is not a ‘real’ answer that will work.

          Consider this, I know a young couple (20’s) with two little ‘bread-snappers’ (toddlers). This couple is married, and the wife is employed at a fast food restaurant. I’m not certain what he does, but I don’t think it is much better.

          She is obviously making the going rate, and he also can’t be doing much better. Now here’s the rub, they are on welfare and have a link (food stamp) card and get partial rent subsidy. The children receive free state medical care.

          Now, how much is that $1.00 burger really costing us?

          If they could make a decent earnings with benefits, (as all employers should offer) we could eliminate the hidden cost of doing ‘Cheap’ business, and stop putting the burden on the taxpayers.

          • Bill

            Gimme,
            What not just promote the private sector and create job opportunities for all instead of trying to unionize the entry jobs

          • Gimmesumadat Whatyougot

            Bill, how do you propose to promote the private sector?

            McDonald’s is part of the private sector. They are not controlled by the ‘State’. And they dump their trash on top of us!

            Since many people lost their employment and houses after the 2007 debacle, where else can they go, but back to entry level. And it all starts over… less pay, no benefits, apply for government assistance.

            As you’ve read here on P.L., the Fed is in cahoots with the banking elite. The banking elite via their corporate shills, have swindled our jobs away from us, and gave them to China, India, Pakistan, all so we can have “cheap” smart phones and T.V.’s, and they reap $-billion-$.

            Or, the big meat packers hiring illegals to process meat, for minimum wages without benefits. They get hurt or sick and go to the E.R. with no insurance. Who gets stuck paying the bill? All for a cheap steak at the food store.

            They’re not so cheap when you add on our taxes paying unemployment and the social welfare burden.

            As the old Wendy’s ad asked us “Where’s The Beef?”

          • Bill

            Gimme,
            You are so mis-informed as to how things work. I don’t have time to explain it to you right now. And I doubt if you would listen to me anyway so I would probably be wasting my time

          • Gimmesumadat Whatyougot

            Sorry Bill,

            I don’t mean to take up any more of your valuable time.

            Just in case you are still interested, I have run a successful (incorporated) business for 35 years. I have successfully bought homes, cars, investments. I believe I have an understanding of supply and demand as well as the basis of the minimum wage argument.

            By posting a response such as, “just promote the private sector and create job opportunities for all” without the least bit of info to support that kind of lunacy, is just that, lunacy!

            Promoting the private sector by creating jobs out of thin air I suppose? Obama has already tried that. TARP, Re-investment In America Monies, that went where? To whom?

            Remember the phrase, “Buy American!” How much of today’s Gross National Consumption is produced right here in the Good Ol’ US of A?

            Unions took over where OSHA left off. Trying to fight for better working condition, better wages and more. I agree that unions became money laundering schemes of their own. That is because most men are greedy by nature. And money and power corrupts.

            But, back to the cost of a burger. When my neighbor with two toddlers (on welfare), who works at a burger joint, goes to the store and buys food that is paid through the government welfare program, by our taxes, isn’t that like paying double (or triple) for the same burger? Do you not see that?

    • speedle24

      A person doesn’t have to go to college to be able to work for good wages (or even get rich for that matter). While there certainly are “classes” in any society, the difference in ours is that there are few impediments to movement in and out of those classes. Progressives need to accept the fact that people are not born equally talented and therefore not going to all fare the same economically. All Crystal is saying is that hard work and determination can make up a whole lot of ground toward being successful in this country.

  • TIME

    My Good People,
    Well lets see, as working at Micky Dee’s will be one of the only jobs left in America soon, that’s only if you can pay around $10.00 plus for the gas to get there.
    Plus as we all know if gas is that much then the food cost will also have to go up so then you will have the $25.00 BIG MAC plus that $10.00 in gas to get 1200 worthless Calories of puffed air and sugar infused fries as well Yeast infused buns. I loving it! Not.
    Congress should make a LAW that these people get paid no less than One Billion Dollars per unit. perfectly logical…. Well that is in a world gone MAD!
    And Congress should also make a law that every American should have to buy at least 10000000000000000000 BIG MACKS per year too!

    • Alan

      Congress wont make a law, but Obama might sign an executive order.

    • Bill

      Time,
      It’s all where your head is at. If that is what you want, then that is what you will get

    • Jana

      I make delicious hamburgers at home, and even oven fries. Healthy? You bet. Cheaper than going to McD’s or any fast food place? You bet. Delicious and good for us and cheaper. Wow, I just have to put out a little WORK and preplanning,( but not much work). Works great and I have a happy family.

  • dan

    Ungrateful curs…if they just get an education to improve themselves…..
    oh,they did that….and only the top 3%, minorities, pretty ones and relatives
    (lets hear it for nepotism) got jobs…..
    they should just get a job as a civil servant and pull in $150k-$250K before kickbacks…..oh,right …connections

  • http://batman-news.com Jim B

    Nothing about a burger in a box is worth a labor cost beyond minimum wage, it’s economics stupid… you know the engine that runs the largest capitalist based economy in the world. In order to triple your burger cost to pay for your extreme labor costs you have to significantly improve your product, and still serve it in a minute and a half. Please! This insane socialist thinking i.e. that a McD’s employee should make a skilled labor salary is pure socialism. The society that thinks they can pay a janitor the same salary as a doctor or a nurse, electrician or plumber, will end up with a huge surplus of janitor’s, just ask any of the old Soviet Union states. If there is no reason to achieve, then there will be no achievement, society will then collapse. In the end they couldn’t even make toilet paper for goodness sake! Oh, and by the way, the government’s 12 year sentence, and their newly acquired 4 year higher learning centers, i.e. college, has nothing to do with the success of most achiever’s, and entrepreneurship in this country.

    • Bill

      Good comments Jim B
      Nelson Bunker Hunt once said that he chose not to go to college because he did not want to be trained for a job working for someone else

  • Ted

    this article disgusts me. Everyone in the United States has the right to use non-violent means to get things done–that’s one of the great things about our country. Just because someone works at a low wage job or whatever doesn’t mean they should give up their right to collective bargaining. The powerless and marginalized in our society need a voice, and obviously they have one when acting in concert–or else those who favour the status quo wouldn’t be so quick to judge. Also, we can’t all be execs or whatever–we need to make sure the necessary lower-paying jobs can get done, and the way to do that is to assure that those who do them can live on the wages. Unless of course, Ben, you want to have all those people who earn a non-living wage to be propped up by welfare, food stamps and the rest of those lovely taxpayer funded programs.

    • Richard

      You are correct. Where are the “compassionate conservatives”.

      Remember, “There, but for the grace of God, go I”

      • Bill

        Richard,
        What a cop out.

      • Gib74

        The ‘compassionate Conservative’ is still there.

        NOTHING about ‘stupid Conservative’. Like the last time I went through O’Hare and the HUGE fat orca 0bama supporter waddled up to me while I was passing one of the McDonalds stands and rasped out ‘BUY me summin!!’.

        Why in the ‘ell would I buy her ample rear a dang thing when she could have spent the time bothering airport people for ‘free’ food when I’m out busting my rear 80+ hours a week?

        She WASN’T starving and we have the RICHEST ‘poor people’ in the WORLD. I felt for the families we drove past on convoy redeploying from Tirana, Albania in the rain, who had whole families living in cardboard boxes between buildings and were digging through trash cans for food.

        liberals need to have their butts in some of the true hellholes of the world before they get to open their well-fed mouths about not being given the newest Obama-pad.

        • speedle24

          amen to that

    • Don 2

      Well then Ted, we’ll just have to increase taxes on the remaining workers in order to increase those monthly welfare payments to the additional laid-off fast-food employees, and existing unemployed, in order to pay for the increased costs of those union made burgers and fries. That makes perfect sense to a liberal, doesn’t it Ted?

    • Jana

      Obviously they haven’t given up their rights to collective bargaining. Neither have we given up our rights to protest and point out why we think they don’t deserve $15. an hour.
      Sounds like you Ted are the one doing the judging.

      This is an ENTRY LEVEL JOB! What part of this do you not get? It is not something someone would or should make a career out of. It is a start. In today’s society there is no excuse for not furthering your education. After all, welfare and the Gov’t. will foot that bill too.

    • wandamurline

      McDonald’s paid my son better than minimal wage and worked with his college hours….it was fair and he stayed working for them through college. If these people want $15 an hour which is close to what plumbers and educated people make…maybe they should try to work out the same schedule, attend some kind of college or higher education and then they could get the pay increase. Personally, if I owned a McDonald’s fanchise and my workers left to protest, I would fire every one of them and replace them with others who need a job and don’t mind working. It is a sign of the times that jobs are hard to come by and demanding better pay for doing the same low level job is ridiculous.

      • flashy

        $15/ hour is close to what plumbers and “educated people” make ??? In what Third World Backwoods country are you referring to ?????

      • Chester

        He was one of the lucky ones, and I am willing to bet he KNEW the people he was working for.. If you think you can get a plumber to come out and fix a leak in your plumbing for fifteen dollars an hour, I sure hope you know the plumber personally. Most plumbers won’t make a house call for less than a two hour guarantee, AT about seventy-five dollars an hour, plus travel time.

      • Bill

        Good comments Wanda,
        The liberals have made it legal to hire illegals, and an employer does not have to pay Obamacare.
        So fire all of the people that want a 100% increase in their wages and replace them with illegals. It would even be politically correct because we are helping the illegals. We could even change the name of Del Taco to La Raza Tacos are Us.

        • NObama_Holder_Reid_Pelosi_2012

          Understand your point and dry sarcasm, but really when it boils down to it. Would they really care to get fired, especially when they read articles that inform these no skilled workers that welfare is paying equivalent to $15 – $16 dollars an hr when you add all the perks, vouchers and freebies up.

          Fire them just gives them a green light excuse to apply for welfare. For every job in America, there is always a immigrant legal or illegal that is “willing” to do the job for several dollars less because it would still be a 1000% increase to what they could make in their own host Country.

          • NObama_Holder_Reid_Pelosi_2012

            cont – I worked in many places in mainland China, but one of my jobs in particular – Jiangsu Province – had shed some light. In the hotel Restaurant I was staying, everyday I would get 3 cans of Coca-cola to take to my room and a ham & cheese sandwich to snack on after work. Currency exchange at that time was 8 yuan = 1US. Each can of coke was 10 yuan = $1.25 US

            One day I was speaking with one of the waitress that serves me this on a daily basis. We got to talking about wages and I found out that she works an 8hr day and makes 10 yuan a day = $1.25US for a full days work. Imagine working an enter day and at the end of the day you can afford to enjoy one can of coke and that ham sandwich you serve to a customer is just a dream because though it cost only about $3.00 US dollars you would have to work 3 days to afford to eat it. Chefs that cook the food are paid about the same and the wages were confirmed by the owner of the Hotel.

            So if given the chance, do you think a person who is currently working a full days work for one (1) can of cola would be willing to come to America and work for $7.25 hr and be able to afford 50 cans of coke after a full days work? Sure they would whether they come by legal means or illegal means.

            Ghana, Africa – Where I worked outside a city called Takarati at what used to be a firestone tire Comapnay that closed. When that Firestone closed, the locals didn’t work for more than 3 years and they don’t have welfare systems like America has. A wealthy man from Liberia who wanted a challenge bought the abandoned company and called it Bonsa Tyre. I went there to assist in bringing the Company back up and running. While there, I made many acquaintances in which had invited me to come meet their families. These folks lived in old abandoned concrete buildings crumbling apart and basically their home was considered some little area in what is basically a hallway of the old abandoned building. Dinner that the misses served was hot banana pudding and sugar cane to suck on as a refreshment. Banana’s and sugar cane are abundant and growing wild there, and thereby free. These people have one pair of clothes, they walk to what is basically a little pool of water muddy water I might add, and they take their bath’s and wash their clothes in a community pond. They put their cleaned clothes (which is basically just wet clothes washed in dirty water) into a basket and the mother places the basket on her head and carries the family clothes back to which ever village they are from. Mom, Dad and Children walking stark naked down the road, once they get to their village, they lay their clothes out on a rock to dry and then redress.

            Do you think, if these people were given the chance to come to America whether legal or illegal and work for minimum wage, they would do it in a heart beat and be forever grateful for what they have.

            I had as at all locations what I call a “ace in the hole”, there is always at least on person that is very good at their job. This one man “Ben” that understood electricity and circuit boards very well. I had a corroded circuit board from a panel and it was going to take 2 weeks to get another circuit board built and shipped to my remote location. A day later this guy comes to my office with this corroded board repaired and corroded connections resoldered and built up to make proper connection. He saved the project a 2 week delay, This guy hadn’t had a paycheck for 3 years and had been working with me for more than 30 days and still hadn’t gotten paid but did what no American would do. Not only did he show up for work everyday but he went above and beyond even though he had yet seen a paycheck. He was one of them that was feeding his family on banana’s and sugar cane.

            Once this Company was online and in operation, this guy in my opinion should be making a good wage as what he has to bring to the table, but what he is making equates to $.80 cents a day. If he was given the chance to come to America again legal or illegal, he would have the potential skills and knowledge to make $20 -$30 an hr depending on which part of the US and the local cost of living. If a burger flipper here is considered to be worth what some think $15 hr and others have suggest their burger flipping skills are worth $25-$30 hr then this guys skill set and knowledge would be worth $80 – $90 hr.

            Do you think he would risk his life and his family life to cross the southern border to make $20-$30 per hr. What keeps him from doing so, is fear of the unknown and consequences. But people around the world are quickly learning that there are no consequences for crossing international borders into America, and in fact they are rewarded for doing so which gives them more motivation to do it.

            You spoiled dumbed down American youth generations with the mindset that “I’m entitled to something for nothing” mentality are putting yourself into a life of distress and your doing so by supporting illegal Immigration. Everyday, thousands on new people come into this Country through port of entries and illegal border crossings coming to look for a job and more than willing to work for $7.25 hr, in fact they would work for $5.25 hr and be grateful and appreciative to have employment.

            However, this Country cannot sustain nor provide jobs for everyone, especially when many of the jobs are being forced out of this Country due to your beloved King and his Administrations alphabet depatments forcing business to close here due to taxes, regulations and mandates costing the company so much money that they either cannot profit or they go bankrupt.

            The end result is we are well on our way to becoming an over populated nation that cannot support or sustain its population. Where there will be 1 job for every 100 applicants. If you are not willing to work for $x.xx wage, there will always be someone else willing to work for less, and this will and has been driving employee’s wages down.

            Many of you who think burger flippers should be making their worth of $25 hr. will never see due to supply and demand.

            This could be seen prominently after WWII – When the men come home to get their jobs back. Their wages were considerably lower. Why? Because while the men were away fighting the war, women had to cover various jobs and enter the work force to keep America going and to build armaments to support the war. When the war was over, the women didn’t want to return to the kitchens, they wanted to earn a their own wage. So we went from having a population where the men were the wage earners to a population with a work force doubled. It is the “supply and demand” effect. When you have 10 jobs and 20 people competing for the job, the hourly wage is going to depreciate. We are seeing this more and more with the explosion of illegal immigration in this Country.

          • Scifidave

            Yup. Just try to live on government handouts. You’d quickly learn it isn’t a lifestyle for the weak of heart.

        • Scifidave

          Liberals aren’t the ones who made it possible (and highly profitable) to hire illegals and ship jobs overseas. Business friendly government policies did.

          • Bill

            Sci,
            You mean like your liberals who are looking for a new voters so they give all of the illegals a bunch of free stuff and tie the hands of law enforcement so they can’t do anything about it?
            I’m just going to run with it. Your buddies have made illegals the new protected class with a bunch of rights and freebies and employers can legally hire illegals. Such a deal, I get a hard working person with better work ethics than the lazy natives and I don’t have to pay obamacare.
            You guys don’t seem to think things out very well. In your quest to have this new voter database, you have aced out the black youth that has about 50% unemployment.
            Why don’t you try encouraging capitalism and let’s create jobs for everyone instead of your selected few

          • Scifidave

            I’ve built a successful, profitable business that was built on great people because I took care of them, the way a business should. I gave back to the community in cash, services and volunteerism.

            Right out of college I took a mom and pop operation and took it to national recognition before starting my own business. I’ve sat on the boards of an Exchange Club and Boys and Girls Club as well as served as an officer. I’ve hobnobbed with senators, mayors and the movers and shakers in my community and at any number of charitable fund raisers. I’ve been amply recognized for my community service and earned a solid living, all based on my ‘liberal’ principles.

            What have you done for your fellow Americans? Or for yourself for that matter. What have you got to be proud of?

          • Bill

            Dirty Dave,
            Now that is the dumbest remark you have made to date.
            Keep up the good work, Dave, maybe you can make an even dumber remark.

      • Scifidave

        Reagan did that to the air traffic controllers and the impact on air safety was immediate. It took better than a decade to properly restaff these positions with qualified people. In the mean time, managers were forced to fill in, which increased the suicide rate among such workers, among numerous other negative impacts.

        Jobs are hard to come by for one reason – corporate greed gone wild because of ‘free market’ policies.

        • Grayson

          The ever popular ‘fire for maximum effect’ trick… Note here how Dave uses the ol’ “managers were FORCED to fill in, which INCREASED THE SUICIDE RATE among such workers”, and “among NUMEROUS other NEGATIVE impacts” routine.
          See, this is how they try to fool you… Dave begins by trying to SHOCK you in to believing very negatively loaded conjecture. Note how he puts key negative power words next to phrases that are designed to trigger an emotional response vs. a logical response in your mind.
          Also note the non-sensical statement at the very end… Chaos, polluted air, stolen children’s loli-pops, polar ice melt ensues due to corporate greed.

          • Bill

            Grayson,
            It appears that you have been educated in the real world. I love the construction world. Where a person is judged by the quality of work and what they can produce instead of the hours they put in.
            It would have been a pleasure to work a job with you

    • speedle24

      Who said they didn’t have a right to “use non-violent means to get things done”? That doesn’t mean their protests are valid. Why does that “disgust” you?

      Oh my, using terms like “the powerless” and “marginalized” reek of Lenin and Marx blather. The fact is people aren’t “powerless”, and the extent of their “marginalization” (for the most part) is measured only by their willingness to work hard and advance to better pay.

      What people that think like you always forget is that 98% of the time these types of jobs are temporary and merely stepping stones to better paying jobs. (Of course in Obama’s economy those better paying jobs are certainly harder to find). And yes, those whose mental capacity or personal sloth ultimately prevent their advancement could wind up on public assistance. That is a better scenario than wage and price controls in terms of negative impact on the economy.

    • ibn insha

      The right for collective bargaining is a made made right. It is not in nature. When these people got their jobs they did not know what their wages are going to be? They have no right or logical reasoning to strike for higher wages. If they don’t like wages go someplace else. Nobody is forcing them to stay at the miserable job.

      • Chester

        Many of them did know what their starting wage would be, and there is the “promise” that your pay will improve with your skills. Funny thing is, very few fast food workers ever see that “raise” in pay as their job skills improve. Instead, they are expected to do more for the same pay, and told that there are a dozen people waiting to take their job if they don’t like the way they are being treated and paid.

  • ROBERT

    People need to get their heads out of the clouds. If the min wage goes up for no skilled workers, everything goes up with it. You’re not gaining any ground. The price of the product or service they’re providing as that non skilled worker is going to go up. The price of skilled work is going to go up because someone who was making $15/hr before will think they should still be making more than that min wage. Where does it stop. Its just a simple fact, if it costs more to make, then its going to cost more to buy. Really, how hard is that to figure out?

    • http://www.OlGreyGhost.Blogspot.com/ Ol’ Grey Ghost

      Two more things will go up, too…

      http://olgreyghost.blogspot.com/2009/05/unemployment-and-price-of-apples.html

      http://olgreyghost.blogspot.com/2013/02/president-obama-leads-mob-to-hang-young.html

      If one doesn’t think that his employer is paying him enough and his employer doesn’t want to pay him anymore, then he could get a gun and just try to take it from his employer. Yes, that’s a crime, but one is no less guilty of that crime if one asks the government instead to hold the gun to the employer’s head…

      • Bill

        As always, good words of wisdom, Grey Ghost

        • Scifidave

          Try coming up with a supportable argument.

          • Bill

            Sci,
            Speaking with you is just arguing with an indoctrinated socialist that is against capitalism.

          • Scifidave

            Make a cogent argument or just be quiet.

            I’ve a business degree and used that knowledge, plus experience, to build a profitable business in which I employed the doctrines I believe in, to great effect. Not only for me, my customers, but also for my employees who rewarded me with loyalty, quality work and high productivity.

            I know how capitalism works and I know how it can be abused. Accepting the fact that people matter and profit isn’t the only important motive for building a business is not socialism or communism. It’s common sense and a great foundation for building a sustainable society.

            Money and power are the twin evils at work in our nation and the working class is being punished by it. If you can’t accept that than you know nothing of value.

          • Bill

            Sci,
            I don’t care you say, If you don’t like my comments go somewhere else

          • Bob666

            That could be said for you as well Willie.

          • Bill

            Great comment, Bob with the sign of the devil

        • http://www.OlGreyGhost.Blogspot.com/ Ol’ Grey Ghost

          Thank you.

          The argument against the commission of a crime is always supportable from the viewpoint of the victim, but rarely entertained with more than a passing thought by the perpetrator…

    • Scifidave

      You obviously have no understanding of economics and have simply bought the corporate rhetoric that continues to make the rich richer and everyone else poorer.

      I’d very much like to explain it to you, but it would require a lot more time than this forum is capable of supporting. Question is, would you read it anyway?

      I suggest you take a course in basic economics.

      • Grayson

        You sir ARE a complete fraud! Your statements to your experiences in business in the previous comments above, could not have produced such a lack of response for your comment here! Oh omniscient sage, wilt thou please depart from thy vitriolic platitudes and dispense from these frivolities!

        • Scifidave

          Get an education so we can have an intelligent discussion.

      • Gib74

        So if you’re such an expert on economics, why aren’t you a multi-billionaire?

        Millionaire?

        Thousandaire?

        • Scifidave

          It wasn’t my primary goal in life. I’ve earned a comfortable living and left my mark on society in positive ways. I have the love of my children, a nice home, decent cars, the friendship of great people and a partner in life that shares my views on most things.

          If you haven’t learned anything else, learn this. Great wealth isn’t everything.

          If I wanted to run a major corporation or make a million dollars, I have the education, skills and training to do just that. But that isn’t what gets me excited and never has.

      • Bill

        No thanks Dirty Dave,
        Your education in Keynesian economics has warped your sense of reality

  • bob arnold

    what rver happened to starting your work expierence with minium wage,i realize people can not find a job and have to take anything,but 15 an hour there goes the fast and cheap food and so will the jobs and then they will have nothing,the democrtats are good at promising more money through their unions but can not promise there will be a job to go to

  • Karolyn

    CEO Pay: A rather revealing retrospective
    http://toomuchonline.org/

    • ibn insha

      If a CEO’s pay is distributed among the company’s employees they would get few pennies only but it sure will make employees happy to see their boos unable to pay his rent. A lot of Americans would like to see another person suffer even when his suffering would not bring them prosperity.

      • Scifidave

        Since the business schools started churning out bean counters in the 60’s the wealth of our nation went from an equitable distribution across class lines to an unfair (yet not unprecedented) accumulation at the top.

        This has had a huge negative impact on the economy and is a major factor in the decline of America’s middle class. By all accounts, 40% of American workers are either unemployed (unfairly burdening the taxpayer) or under employed.

        I think it is imperative that both micro and macro economics become a requirement in public education, beginning as early as 6th grade and continuing to graduation from high school.

        The economic ignorance of our nation is astounding.

        • Grayson

          PURE CONJECTURE AGAIN, DAVE.

          • Scifidave

            No conjecture. Research. I do my homework and I reinforce that with first hand experience.

  • Karolyn

    There need to be more activists like these people! Too many of us spend our time arguing and complaining about problems and do little. The best I have been able to do is sign petitions, spread the word and make donations when I can. These people are taking matters into their own hands. I applaud them and all the other Americans who contribute to making this a better country. (And there are a lot of them!)

    http://thestateweekly.com/with-detroits-bankruptcy-anarchists-have-begun-project-free-detroit-starting-a-community-2/

    • Bill

      Karolyn,
      It should start by promoting the free market economy with economic opportunity for all. Not just the selected few.

      • Scifidave

        A ‘free market economy’ leads to corporate exploitation of workers, which, if you paid attention to what has been happening since the late 60’s, has been instrumental in shrinking the middle class and has created a huge disparity in the distribution of wealth that has led to our current economic woes.

        • Bill

          Sci,
          That is total liberal propaganda, also called BS. It is such a stupid statement that it does not even warrant a reply.
          You really are living in science fiction land

          • Scifidave

            Get an education.

          • Bill

            Sci,
            So, I can be an overeducated idiot like you

  • KG

    The truth is if minimal wage kept with inflation, since 1970, it would be about 25 dollars and hour. Companies like McDonalds, WalMart, and Home Depot pay their employes – not what they are ‘worth’ but the least they can get away with. If a person at McDonalds were paid what they were worth, they would probably get 25-30 dollars and hour. That’s about how much profit an employee makes per hour for the McDonalds franchiser.

    The point isn’t the wage, the point is respect for the people who do the jobs that keep America going.

    • ibn insha

      It is not any business’s responsibility to pay its employees what employees or government thinks they should. It is an agreement between employer and the employee. If salary does not suit you don’t apply for that job. Go somewhere else where you get what you want but then again you have to be qualified for that job which you are not.

      • Chester

        Sir, you may be qualified for a dozen jobs that pay four or five times what you are making, but someone has to be willing to hire YOU, and not the guy they went to school with who has NO qualifications. Also, when you are hungry, you take any job you can get, even if it doesn’t pay as much as you would like to have. Again, that is assuming there is a job to be had in the first place.

        • Bill

          Chester,
          No one gets hungry anymore, we have food stamps.

          • Chester

            Now that, my friend, is a lot of wishful thinking. Single man or woman, capable of working, no children, no food stamps. Seems that for all the noise about how easy they are to get, takes a pretty special set of circumstances to qualify you for them. And no, color has nada to do with it, and neither does ethnicity or national origin.

          • Scifidave

            Fantasy land, my friend. Starvation in America is far more prevalent than you know.

            Starvation comes in many forms.You can have enough to eat, but because many can’t afford nutritious food they buy high salt, low-nutrition substitutes which lead to health problems that end up costing the taxpayer dearly.

          • Bill

            Sci,
            You look a little chunky there yourself, dave. So you mean that me as a taxpayer is going to half to pay for your bad decisions when it comes to health.

          • Scifidave

            My ‘bad decisions’ put a lot of people to work earning a living wage, with benefits. I didn’t short change my people just to have another car or a vacation home. They rewarded me by giving me a comfortable living. Not a one regretted working with me. Not for me, but with me. As a team. I listened to what they said because it was important to the success of my company. They paid me back in spades. Green spades.

            For their bucks, my customers got first class service and products and services at a fair (not a gouging) price. I was the bane of the big dealers in my area and all their techs made it a point to hand me their resumes. The major dealers had the sell their machines below cost just to keep their service customers away from me.

            Sure, I eat well and I live comfortably. I used capitalism in the way it should be used, not the way the big players have used it to destroy middle class lives since civilization began.

          • Grayson

            Scifidave is still a Communist as clearly evident in his presumptuous 2nd paragraph, however, his 1st statement is true! Remember that Lucifer will first tell you 99 out of 100 truths AND that he NEVER existed!

          • Bill

            Grayson,
            It’s good to see you this site, your common sense and no BS attitude is refreshing

      • Scifidave

        That is an unsupportable over simplification. Such economic diversity isn’t always available, especially in small towns and rural areas.

        Of course, everyone could move to the big cities, which would have a downward impact on wages by increasing the supply of excess workers.

        If you fail to read history, then you fail to understand how that trend destroyed small town America and small business (not the government’s idea of small business).

        For an example, look how this corporate dreamscape destroyed the small town tomato industry and gave us factory manufactured tomatos that don’t taste as good and aren’t as nutritious.

        • Bill

          Dirty Dave,
          So your answer a simple analogy is to make it overly complicated.

    • momo

      If McDonalds paid 25-30 dollars per hour, there would soon be no McDonalds.

      • KG

        How do you know?

      • Scifidave

        No kidding.

        If McDonalds (and other minimal skills service providers) created mostly full time positions and increased minimum worker pay to $10-11 and hour, not only would they reduce the cost of local government services, but would increase local economic activity and inadvertently create more jobs. Basic economics 101.

        • Grayson

          EXPLAIN exactly HOW the cost of local gov’t services would be reduced? How would the economic activity increase ‘inadvertently’ to then create more jobs?

          This is PURELY conjecture on your part, NOT ONE THING BASED IN FACT!

          • KG

            People who get paid more pay more taxes. If more people make better wages then they can afford to do other things beside just surviving. Like buy a house, a new car, some drapes for the house etc.

          • Bill

            KG,
            If the taxes are lowered, more economic activity is created and more tax revenue is brought in.
            Using the rationalization that if people made more money they would pay more taxes is an irrelevant statement. If you give the government more money, they will just spent it stupidly again.
            Fiscal irresponsibility is a major problem. The feds are bringing in 180 billion dollars a month and spending 300 million a month. That cannot go on. They need to be on a spending diet

          • KG

            quote: If the taxes are lowered, more economic activity is created and more tax revenue is brought in.

            Some guy in 1979 said that. But it’s a lie. Some other guy did the opposite in 1993 and we had a decade of prosperity. Cutting taxes do NOTHING but make Rich people lazy. Why should they invest any money in a construction project if all they have to do is sit back and pay no taxes. That’s the problem with America today. Lots of rich people are sitting on billions of dollars and not doing anything with it. Tax policy ensures that Capital does not stay idle, but moves through the economy.

            We have been cutting taxes for 30 years now, and look where it has gotten us.

          • Scifidave

            You really don’t understand anything to do with business and economics, do you?

            Do yourself and everyone a favor. Get an education.

            When you pay people subsistence wages they must turn to government for such basic needs as health care, emergency room visits (instead of a doctor), food stamps, child care, etc. just to survive.

            If you pay them a living wage they can make do on their own.

            Keep in mind that every dollar paid in wages generates seven dollars in local economic activity, which in turn creates local jobs, which in turn increases local economic activity and so on. That, of course, is a gross oversimplification, but if you don’t get that it would be a waste of my time to delve much deeper.

          • Grayson

            You can’t prove your point logically, so all that you can do is attack me personally.

          • Scifidave

            Logic doesn’t work for someone who doesn’t have the education to understand even the most basic economic concepts or can’t be bothered with learning.

            I ask again: what have you done that you can be proud of? Anything? Started a business, worked for a charity, done community service? Have you ever been a Boy Scout?

            Tell me, where does your perspective come from, other than reading trash talk from neocons who make six and seven figure incomes telling people who want to think they are conservatives what you want to hear regardless of its validity? People who have to come up with new stuff every day even when they’ve got nothing worth sharing?

            I read these posts just to see what new lunacy these talking heads are barfing up.

            My perspective comes from education, business experience and research. Where does your’s come from?

          • Bill

            Dirty Dave,
            I would rather by a person of common sense than an over educated idiot that you seem to be portraying yourself as.

      • Grayson

        You are correct!

    • Bill

      Kg,
      So you are proposing that McDonalds pay all of it’s profits to it’s employees? And then they would just operate out of public service to their employees? Kind of like how the government operates

      • KG

        I’m not proposing that they pay all of their profits, I’m saying they could pay the 15 dollars an hour and still be very profitable. Look at baseball. Baseball players in the 1920-30’s were paid about as much as an average factory worker. Now, they are paid in the millions, and yet the baseball owners are richer than ever. How did that happen?

        • Bill

          KG
          But you are a promoter of communism and unions. So, none of your comments will make any economic sense

          • KG

            I do not ‘promote’ Communism as much as I use it’s language and knowledge to frame my opinions on economic and social issues. Unlike Conservatives who use it as a boogy-man. I have studied many different economic/social paradigms and have experienced the American paradigm all my life. All I can say is in my experience, if Labor Unions were more powerful and represented more workers, America could be prosperous again.

          • Bill

            Kg,
            That kind of sounds like a back peddle to me. Why don’t you get your story straight

          • Grayson

            He can’t Bill. It’s like asking a schizophrenic how they got that way. They talk in circles until the laws of eventuality collide. He projects that he’s not a communist, but that he uses language, knowledge and his personal experience to explain what… NOTHING! He didn’t explain 1 thing! He DID state that Conservatives believe in the Boogey-Man. WHAT?!?!? Oh, well then I guess that their Mom’s must wear army boots then too. Makes just as much sense in that line of reasoning. You see Bill, KG and the rest of his ilk have this playbook called “Rules for Radicals”. KG has implemented a few of those techniques here in the comment above. Now you know how to spot a Communist! Cool, huh?

          • KG

            Whats really funny about your comment was trying to equate what I’ve been saying with Saul Alinsky’s ‘Rules for Radicals”. I have never read anything from Alinsky until I heard about him here after Rush, Hannity, or Beck had a ‘lesson’ on him. Most of what I write here has been bits and pieces of wisdom and knowledge I have picked up in my personal life.

            I am not Pro-Union because someone told me it was a good thing. I have been the member of a Union since 1995. I have enjoyed the best career I could dream of. I have worked on every type of project – from a strip mall to a huge industrial oil refinery to the biggest art museum on the West coast. Being Union is like being in the Navy – It’s not a job, it’s an adventure!

            So, any electricians out there tired of slinging Romex and pretending to be an electrician, check out the IBEW. And get paid what your worth instead of what left over.

          • Bill

            Kg,
            I once was a working contractor on a prevailing wage job on a military base. Which means that I had to join the union to put on tools. I remember the electricians, there were about 75 of them. They would spend 15 minutes getting ready for their 15 minute break and 15 minutes getting back to work from their 15 minute break. The same with lunch.
            They wasted about about $7,500 per day just frolicking around on their breaks. They used to say “The longer it takes, the more we make”. Talk about an inefficient way to get things done.
            But the jokes on you. You have priced yourself out of the private sector and the only thing left for you is prevailing wage government jobs which are few and far between.
            I bet you spend a lot of time at the union hall playing dominoes

          • KG

            Actually no. I’m retired and have SS as well as a Union pension. That’s what allows me to spend time here. I know of Government Prevailing Wage jobs. I have worked a lot of those. However, the bulk of my career was spent working for T&I in office buildings on tight bid jobs that non-union guys couldn’t hope to make money on due to the experience and training of Union workers. What may seem to be ‘inefficient’ may be nothing more than a contractor who needs to keep a certain amount of guys around to fulfill contract obligations. As well as the need to retain a certain amount of guys for emergency as well as unanticipated contingencys that always pop up on construction jobs. So don’t read too much into the character of your fellow workers. Just thank G-d you get those Union wages.

          • Jana

            hahaha training of Union Workers hahaha. Duh I only can do 1 job. Duh my union boss won’t let me.
            Training to be lazy and worthless!

          • KG

            Have you ever worked on a Union construction site? I didn’t think so. The Union trades are the most trained, qualified and productive workers you will ever see. Are some Union members lazy? Are some non-union workers lazy? Are YOU lazy? Everybody has good days and bad days. So don’t be too judgmental of other workers – unless you are perfect. Then you could tell on everyone. But until then, just be polite.

          • Grayson

            KG; Jana is being EXTREMELY polite! I’ve worked with/around/against unions in 3 different industries. Comparing union vs. non-union, is like comparing the horse and carriage to a Ford Super Duty! Unions took twice as long and at 4 times the cost to do the same project! The unions would often hire us after we finished our jobs to do their “tag work” just so they could keep up with the rest of us and not look so bad (I know that this contributes to unions’ higher costs)! Union job sites were the sites that the ambulances showed up to! Union sites were what WE fixed/corrected! Unions sites were responsible for ALL of the utility lines cut on all of the sites that we worked on! YOU SIR ARE DELUSIONAL AT BEST (“most trained”, blah, blah, “that you’ll EVER see” garbage)!!!! Unions were necessary for a specific, short period of time in history that had passed generations ago. Unions became unnecessary and unsustainable decades ago.
            Look into the mirror and repeat after me… “I AM THE USEFUL IDIOT THAT THE COMMUNISTS USE TO SPREAD THEIR NON-SENSE”. Ok, now that that is out of the way. Now… It is up to you to change your wrong thinking and get back on track. If not, then go be stupid somewhere else.

          • KG

            I doubt you ever worked on a union job. It sounds like you were in the Union and did something stupid and got laid-off, And now you carry a grudge because you lost-out on all of those good Union benefits. And, because of your false ‘pride’ you can’t bring yourself to go back and apologize. All you have to do is look at the accidents on construction jobs and tell me the Union is not needed.

            “I know the ladder is missing a few rungs but if you don’t do the job, Jose’ here will do it.”

            “Hey, why should we spend the money on shoreing? You will only be in that hole for ten minutes.”

            “What’s wrong with that power saw? What do you mean the safety guard is missing? What are you,a wimp?”

            I have personally experienced each one of these situations working Non-union before I became a professional craftsperson in my Unions apprentice program. If I’m on a job and the ladder is broken, I sit there untill the contractor supplies a proper ladder. As a professional, I refuse to do anything that could possibly injure me or anyone else. I have personally stopped huge Multi-Million dollar jobs just to ensure the safety of my crew.

            Unions are what made America greater than ever. When craftspersons come together and declare that they are human too and demand to be treated as such, great things happen.

            Si se Puede!
            Solidarity Forever

          • KG

            I’m not ‘back peddling’, I’m trying to be as honest as I can. Have you ever thought about the fact that a “communist” can not be ‘alone’, for the root of the word is ‘commune’ – or a group of people doing something together. However, the root for conservative is ‘conserve’ or keep what is yours to yourself – a selfish and lonely position.

            Try not to ‘pigeon-hole’ too many people. I try not too, unless it becomes so obvious that I cannot ignore it. That’s kinda easy here at PLD.

          • Bill

            Kg,
            I prefer my selfish and lonely position over giving my stuff to people like you.
            If you are so against the people here at PLD, then what are you doing here.

          • KG

            Mark 16:14-16
            King James Version (KJV)
            14 Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen.
            15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
            16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

          • Bill

            There you go again, KG,
            An admitted communist quoting the bible.
            That does not show very good credibility

          • KG

            Communism
            If anyone would take your coat, let him have your shirt as well. Give to him who begs from you, and do not refuse him who would borrow from you.
            — Matthew 5:40-42
            Let no one seek his own good, but the good of his neighbor.
            — 1 Corinthians 10:24

            Why can’t a communist use the bible? Nazis use it all the time.

          • Bill

            KG,
            That is a very juvenile statement. You are wasting everyone’s time.
            Go march with your union buddies in Detroit. Do something productive

          • Jana

            But you misappropriate the Bible to suit your distorted views KG.

          • KG

            Everybody does that. Whole Denominations have been created out of a single verse. That’s what makes the Bible such an interesting book.

          • Bill

            KG,
            So you are admitting that you make up stuff as you go.

          • Evermont King

            Bill, they pay the least they can get away with and that’s fine as long as they can get away with it… I think this falls right in line with capitalism because the workers are saying they are worth more so if they don’t want to pay them that they will quit. This is kinda cool. I think they are worth 15 an hour. I think it’s inhumane to pay people so little. I mean how do they live like that. You’re borderline homeless. Nobody who works hard should be borderline homeless. They will still make a nice profit just a little less. So what!

          • Bill

            Ever,
            So buy a McDonalds franchise, then you can pay your workers whatever you want

          • Scifidave

            Let’s be clear on this. Major companies (like Costco) provide similar products and services as places like Walmart while hiring full time employees, paying them a living wage with benefits and yet they are as profitable or more so.

            As a business owner, I paid my people 20-30% more than the industry norm, made a damn good living and kicked the butts of the regional dealers on a regular basis. I had a loyal and productive team with attitudes that enhanced by company at every turn. I regularly received job apps from techs working for my competitors because I treated my team like family.

            Understand this. Every dollar paid in salaries generates seven dollars in local economic activity. By paying workers a subsistence wage, you not only force the government to subsidize these workers with services best provided by the employer, but you harm the local economy by sending those dollars to a corporate entity which doesn’t recirculate those dollars locally.

            Pay your people well and you not only reduce government costs, but create more jobs. This is basic economics 101. In other words, a no-brainer.

          • Bill

            Sci,
            You mean the economics 101, that making it easier for business’s to grow will create more jobs? Such as lowering taxes and reducing regulation? Hong Kong has the most vibrant free market economy in the world and they have two tax rates; 17% for business’s and 15% for personal. They have outsourced the non producing public sector to the point that it is so efficient that they refunded every Hong Kong citizen $6,000 last year.
            That is the no brainer, the real economics 101

          • Scifidave

            Put up or shut up. Take a business course. Better yet, get a business degree. Then get a job in management. When you’ve got the training and real world experience, you’ll think and talk far differently.

            I’d lay out the failures in our system due to unbridled capitalism, but when you buy rhetoric without knowing what you’re talking about, you don’t have much of value to share.

            You could use Alaska as an example as well. They don’t have a state sales tax, but they do have enough oil revenues to give their citizens cash back every year. Doesn’t mean anything more than they’ve got what people want and are willing to pay for it.

          • Bill

            Dirty Dave
            It is just common sense that for your business to be
            successful you need to offer a good product or service at a good price, treat your employees fairly and offer the best customer service.
            You do not need a college education to know that. You rant a lot about the greed of capitalism while you present yourself as god’s gift to the business world. It sounds as though you are conflicted.

            You need to get off your arrogant high horse and quit
            telling us how special you are. Greed can also be called the profit motive.
            Without the profit motive there would be nothing to incentivize the entrepreneurs to create better products or services. We would still be riding horses and buggies.

          • Robert Messmer

            How many burgers did your store sell per year? No, I realize you are not talking about a burger joint with your comment about techs applying for jobs. My point is that burger flipping is not worth $15 per hour, I don’t care what any union says. And if WalMart is so terrible why are they still in business? BTW the local WalMart has sign posted showing dollars they recirculate locally not counting the seven dollars in economic activity from wages paid.

          • Scifidave

            I’ll explain Walmart’s business model as simply as I can, though there are any number of nuances that should be considered as well.

            Walmart says they sell low because they buy low, which is generally true. They tell suppliers what they are willing to pay and the suppliers must either cheapen their product to meet the Walmart demands or forego the millions in sales they would otherwise reap. This is why most products you buy from Walmart don’t last as long. For example, Walmart increases meat volume by injecting 10% more water and as a former HP tech I can tell you from first hand experience that you buy a computer from Walmart and you will have more technical problems than if you bought it from say Best Buy.

            Business standard: Quality, service or price. You can pick only two.

            When Walmart wants to move into a community they first study what the small business owners are selling (what’s moving off the shelves) then stock their shelves accordingly with cheaper knock-offs to squeeze out the competition. As these smaller competitors are forced out of business the now unemployed workers add to the local labor pool, thus driving down wages. This business decision alone has been instrumental in destroying countless small business districts and in many cases obliterating downtowns.

            By offering mostly part time work Walmart is able to skirt the federal benefit requirements, lowering costs and increasing profits. Unfortunately for us that means most of these underpaid employees (around 85%) must seek government assistance. In other words, we taxpayers subsidize Walmart.

            Increased profits means they have more money to grease the local political wheels reducing overhead and insuring themselves a less competitive market.

            Walmart can market just about any fiction they want because they are big enough to get away with it. Their posting what they ‘circulate’ in the local economy is just savvy marketing – the way they convince people what a great benefit they are to the local economy.

            Of course it’s far more complicated than that, but you really need an understanding of business and economics to delve deeper and not get lost in the details.

          • Robert Messmer

            So there you go. If the local politicians didn’t collude with WalMart (or any other business) and their suppliers had more backbone to say, nope we are not going to give you a cheaper model, then burger flippers would be making $15 an hour. Then the unions, where they exist and have bought the politicians, should push for the Federal Government to mandate all benefits are to go to part-time employees as well as full-time and that no company can lessen the number or quality of those benefits from what they are now. That should just about wipe out the economy completely.

          • Scifidave

            There you go, Robert, off the deep end.

            Many suppliers do tell Walmart to stuff it. Walmart must then make a choice whether or not to carry the supplier’s product.

            You give the unions far too much power and have convinced yourself that all unions are corrupt. Generalizations like that are never accurate.

            It’s patently unfair that companies have skirted regulations by screwing their employees even more by reducing full time jobs to part time. I see that as a gross violation of human rights and the government has every right to step in and penalize them for doing so.

            That said, some jobs are naturally better suited for part-time workers, for the company and the workers. Making all jobs full time and mandating full time benefits to part-time workers isn’t the answer either, but you only seem to be able to accept absolutes in everything. It doesn’t work that way.

            This is a gray world. There are few absolutes. One size does not fit all, so one solution isn’t the right one for every situation, which is why we have departments in government.

            Paying workers better is more often than not the right solution for the economy. Paying workers less only enriches business and we’ve seen how well that’s worked out for us.

          • Robert Messmer

            Not nearly as badly as overpaying politicians and allowing them to expand government way beyond the scope of the Constitution.

          • Scifidave

            ‘Not nearly as badly as overpaying politicians’

            No kidding.

            ‘allowing them to expand government way beyond the scope of the Constitution’

            What century do we live in? Did the founding fathers envision transcontinental highways, assault rifles, legions of lawyers, the internet, ICBMs? A pretty lame statement, even for this forum.

          • Scifidave

            Please don’t insult people here by saying something really dumb.

            True communism doesn’t exist. Never has. Anywhere.

            Huge difference between unions (that helped build this country in spite of the the unhealthy greed of capitalists) and a mythical social order.

          • Grayson

            Please go be dumb in another realm then Scifidave!

          • Bill

            Sci,
            That sounds like double talk to me

          • Robert Messmer

            That’s strange, I thought unions were a response to the “unhealthy greed of capitalists”. In other words the country was already built before they came along. Don’t recall my history book telling about any unions building the railroads. But after everything was built, then the unions came along and demanded their cut–driving many business out of business.

          • Scifidave

            Predatory transportation, mining and manufacturing were primary movers in the creation of unions. They hired workers at slave wages because the worker pool was huge and growing with fresh immigrants. Damaged employees were tossed aside with zero regard.

            When the railroad wars began thousands of workers would find themselves working one day and out of a job the next when one of the big players (the Vanderbilts, et al.) used often illegal means to destroy their competition. Sometimes hundreds of thousands of workers were displaced.

            The big players manipulated government to keep regulations non-existent with callous disregard as long as profits remained large and they could wage their business wars without distraction.

            We honor these greed capitalists as the designers and creators of our nation while ignoring the enormous contribution millions of workers made to make that possible. Sure, the rich built our nation, but the cost in destroyed lives was beyond comprehension.

            Which is where the unions came in and still must play a vital role in creating economic stability and maintaining a decent quality of life for American workers.

            Unfortunately unions have been denigrated because of savvy capitalist marketing and by a few bad examples that the media helped amplify while ignoring the evil complicity of government and business in this regard.

            Unions haven’t driven any business out-of-business. That is a well-groomed fiction.

            Obviously you have no comprehension of just how valuable unions have been to middle class America.

          • Robert Messmer

            You’re right, of course. They never have found Hoffa’s body.

        • Robert Messmer

          What are you calling “very profitable”? Considering that it takes 3/4 million dollars (US) in non-borrowed assets to have McDonalds consider selling you a franchise, just what constitutes a “fair profit”? They require 25% down in cash for a used store or 40% down in cash for a new one. So how much profit are you going to allow that is “fair” and not “greedy”? BTW there is no guarantee of ANY profit so the total investment of money, time, and labor you put in is at risk. Part of the reason baseball owners are richer than ever is because the government exempts them from the Anti-Monopoly Law. So they are quite literally the only baseball game in town. I would think that also contributing are multi-million dollar contracts with various tv networks. Perhaps because it COSTS a lot more to go to a game now than it did then. (Don’t know since I don’t attend games.) Once there you no longer get a hot dog for a nickle and a beer for a dime. According to my son it is $14.00 for a hot dog and $7 for a coke. I’m sure they get a cut of that also, I know I would if I was an owner.

          • KG

            You are right, the entrepreneur does risk his capital in making the business. And he needs to make a profit. But is he going to realize 100% in his first year? Most business are happy with 1 to 2% in the first year. It seems as though you want the entrepreneur to be immediately successful. And that the employes should just suck-up whatever he wants to leave over. I never understand young entrepreneurs who drive around in Italian sports cars before they even realize a profit from their enterprise?

            Realize that the entremanuer wouldn’t be able to make any money if it weren’t for an educated, compliant workforce. And that don’t come free.

          • Robert Messmer

            Never said that employees should just suck-up whatever he wants to leave over, but flipping burgers is not-not in the current economy-a job worth $15 an hour. I have had several jobs in my life and in every case I knew what they were willing to pay before I said “sign me up.” Every raise I ever got I earned, not by going on strike or just because I was there for 5 years, but by demonstrating that I was worth more money.

    • Verland Gilliam

      The minimum wage is set by our liberal Democrats, like the late Ted Kennedy for example, that insisted the minimum wage should be raised by ‘X’ number of dollars over the next so and so years. When the min. wage was $5.75 an hour, Kennedy thought it should be raised to $7.25 over the next two years. That is an example of what our liberal politicians see as an honest adjustment; nothing close to what inflation would have gotten the employee if we did not have the minimum wage law. The Republicans have been trying to get away from the min. wage law for decades but the Democrats use that as a tactic to gain votes by claiming the Republicans are against making employers pay their employees a better salary. The Republicans have always said that if there were no min. wage law, and people applied for jobs based on their qualifications, that in itself would make employers pay a livable wage as opposed to what the law said they must pay. And through education, all those people supposedly working in the low skilled jobs would and could legitimately ask for and demand a livable wage. We have too many blockades set in place that prohibit equal opportunity for higher education. African Americans realized their chances to succeed were hindered by their lack of education and protested to hell and back till the government set up programs that guaranteed them that opportunity. Of course, the same programs were not applicable to whites. The school curricula from kindergarten all the way up through college was lowered to allow the slow learning blacks to keep pace with the whites. What that did was nothing more than to dumb down the white kids while pushing the blacks to become more successful in the work place, and be ‘drafted’ into college through sports programs. When you listen to college kids being interviewed by sports media you would think they hadn’t graduated from middle school. That is both black and white kids whose vocabulary consists of , ‘uh’ ‘like’ ‘ya know’ ‘I just thank God’ and ‘weez gonna git bettah’ . To top it off, you can go into any government office building and see these same ‘intellectuals’ working at every desk. Where they should be working according to their qualifications is in the fields, where they can sing and talk to the corn stalks. This country, has continually gone down hill from the 1950’s to where we are now which is not much better than what we refer to as a “third world” country. And it isn’t getting any better, but it will get much, much worse.

      • KG

        I guess you would like a return to the ‘Original’ Constitution, eh? How many ‘other persons’ do you wish to import? Do you wash your white robes after you burn the crosses or before?

        Can you feel me, Bro?

        • Verland Gilliam

          You’re just another idiot that is afraid to face up to the truth. Facts are facts. And if you think I’m a racist because I told the truth then I guess the proof is in the pudding, you’re an idiot. Black leaders, and educated blacks in all areas of the work force will agree with me and have done so on numerous occasions. I have a black female Realtor that sells most of my properties when I have one for sale, and she refuses to even go into S.E. or S.W. Atlanta for fear of being raped or mugged. Now you tell me that is not happening all over the country right today!? That isn’t racist comments, that happens to be true and you know it. And for your information KG, I have been married to a lady going onto 36 years and she happens to be a DARK skinned woman that makes my Realtor lady look almost white. You’re just not a very bright person are you? That’s a shame !

          • KG

            How many trailer parks have you lived in? Would you feel any safer in a southern white trash trailer park than a SW Atlanta public park? The truth is you are a racist bigot who hides his KKK fantasy world from everybody by ‘pretending’ to be civilized. Just the fact that you judged your own wife according to skin color speaks volumes about your true personality. It would seem that you would look at a persons skin color and make primary judgements from that before even considering the persons character. That, my friend, is the very definition of racism. I didn’t ‘play’ any race card, you outed yourself.

          • Verland Gilliam

            And YOU sir just made up a bunch of words and phrases because you’re still an idiot. I did not “judge” my wife by her skin color, YOU did. It was NOT I that am afraid of entering into S.E. OR S.W. Atlanta, for I go there quite often. I told you it was my black Realtor that said that. YOU can’t even comprehend the common English language without twisting it to suit YOUR agenda, and that sounds exactly like what I have said before, ‘you’re an idiot’ and probably one of the liberals that try so hard to keep the black people “in their place” and certainly more of a KKK type character than I. YOU have to borrow from MLK’s statement about “character” before attempting to express your own opinion based on your own knowledge. Accept it, you’re a nut case.

          • KG

            Your response just confirms my earlier suspicions.

            Best wishes,
            KG

          • Bill

            Now Kg is lashing out with name calling and false assumptions. He is getting more entertaining

          • Bill

            But KG is very entertaining

        • The Snarf

          Why, KG, don’t you already know? After all; slavery, the white robes, Jim Crow, all of that, was your own glorified Democrat party. But then, they no longer teach real history to the dependency slaves on the Democrat plantation, do they? They just keep the low-intellect zombies too blind to see their own chains.

          • KG

            So, the republican party of 1865 is the same one as today? Is the Democrat party of 1950 the same as the Democrat party of today? You are not only dumb, but kinda stupid too.

          • The Snarf

            Hey, I’m not quite that old. Sadly, KG, far too many are just like you, with their progressivized indoctrination, er, education, in chains to dysfunctional ideals while lacking even a basic understanding of how the rest of the world, outside their little liberal bubble, works, but yet you believe you’re free and intelligent because “The One” tells you that you are just as long as you make sure to vote Democrat.
            Why don’t you really set yourself free, free your mind from the whole false left/right, D vs. R paradigm. Look beyond the propaganda, it becomes obvious that aside from the puppet show, both are doing, or allowing, the same things.

          • KG

            Is there a democrat way to build a bridge? Is there a Republican way to build a bridge? That will tell you that despite trying to ball them together, they are very different ways to address problems in our society.

            Maybe YOUR are the one who is ‘deluded’. People who are deceived usually do not realize it until it is too late.

          • Verland Gilliam

            Just had to cut in here for a moment to let you know that there really is a “democrat way to build a bridge” and also a “Republican way to build a bridge”. Want me to tell you? Okay, I will. It’s very simple, ‘Democrats continually build bridges the WRONG way and the Republicans USUALLY (but not always) build bridges the RIGHT way. You see, it’s just a matter of whose eyes you looking through. And remember, without a negative, there could be NO positive.

          • KG

            So, when people say that the Democrats and Republicans are the same, they are lying? I thought all you ‘Libertarian” types claim that the two party system doesn’t work?

          • Bill

            Good comment, Baron

          • Bill

            Kg,
            So we have an admitted communist that quotes the bible, calling other people names that do not agree with him.
            Are you having your second childhood also

      • Scifidave

        ‘The Republicans have always said that if there were no min. wage law, and people applied for jobs based on their qualifications, that in itself would make employers pay a livable wage as opposed to what the law said they must pay.’

        This has been proven to a false assumption. It ignored the influence of the politics of greed capitalism.

        Think about our high tech industry. Wages are high because those jobs requires a specific set of qualifications. In the 70’s, at the behest of powerful capitalists, Congress gutted the regulations limiting the replacement of American workers with foreigners. Well paid Americans found themselves training their replacements who were paid half or less.

        Now you could say those American workers were overpaid or unproductive and deserved a pay cut or you could admit that the politics of greed capitalism altered the dynamics.

      • Robert Messmer

        Verland had you stopped at ” We have too many blockades set in place that prohibit equal opportunity for higher education. African Americans realized their chances to succeed were hindered by their lack of education and protested to hell and back till the government set up programs that guaranteed them that opportunity.” you would have has a good post. But you didn’t and let me tell you, you are one sick puppy.

        • Verland Gilliam

          And you, ‘Most Intellectual Imminence’ have allowed yourself to become “blinded by the light”. I am probably a little older than you and I was there when everything was happening and was able to see more than just what the liberal media wanted me to see. Sorry about your mental ineptness to read between the lines to really understand what happened, and is happening, but I’m sure you’ll wake up one of these days. At least we can always hope, huh?

    • Bill

      Kg,
      You mean like the phrase most used by your buddies “The longer it takes, the more we make”.

    • jr023

      but then what would the dollar be worth if we stayed on the gold and silver standard my silver quarter pre 64 is valued around $4.00
      minimum wage then was around 1.60 so 4,oo now was 25 cents then
      see the problem yet

      • KG

        Go spend that quarter at McDonalds and tell me what you got for it?

    • Robert Messmer

      And that is the problem. Pay the employee 25-30 an hour and the franchiser winds up with nothing. With no profit how long is a) the business going to continue and b) the burger flipper have a job?

      • KG

        I didn’t say “pay the worker 20-30 dollars and hour”, I said that’s how much they make per hour for the franchiser. If he payed then $15 and hour, the franchiser is still making $15+ and hour per employee. Walmart could pay their employees $25 and hour and still be profitable. The employer needs to make a profit. But why at the cost of the employee who is making that profit for him?

        • Robert Messmer

          Sorry, but yes I took your statement that “If a person at McDonalds were paid what they were worth, they would probably get 25-30 dollars and hour.” as the same as you saying to pay them what they were worth. So if he payed them $15 an hour, that would leave the franchiser with $10-15 an hour. Now, is that just considering the employees salary? Or have you (or the chart that you have googled) also deducted for the cost of the ingredients, electricity, personal property tax on the equipment…in other words is that $10-15 gross profit or net before taxes profit or even net after taxes profit? And, at least in the case of an individual business such as a franchiser, at what point of diminished return does he just say screw it and shut down?

          • KG

            At what point does an employee say “screw it” because he cannot afford the necessities of life? At what point does the worker realize that his labor is being exploited so as to provide a luxurious life for a few rich people? At what point does a single mother leave her baby alone so as to make some poverty wages to pay for formula?

            Yes, there is much frustration in this ‘unfunded mandate’ known as life.

  • Heneryg

    Minimum wage jobs were never designed to be for lifetime careers! I worked at A&W for 90 cents per hour when I was in High school in the late 60’s. I quit working for A&W or any other fast food restaurants 1 year after graduation and continued my education for my future. My first job after HS paid $250.00 per 40 hr. week, And at age 24 I opened my own Porsche repair shop and made about 60K per year and my lowest payed educated employee made $16,000.00 per year and qualified mechanics made about $22,500.00 per year. So whats it going to be? Flipping meat or going to learn a trade and earn a very good middle class living?

    • Bill

      Good comment, Henery,
      Some people are just not cut out for college. A good plumber will make more than a college graduate

      • Heneryg

        College degrees are not a guarantee but trade schools are as you mentioned Plumber. That goes for A/C Heat, Auto Technicians, Computer Techs Etc. We are all given opportunities in all fields of trades that are very rewarding if your willing to take that first step. Success is measured by failure and when you succeed it will be your best earned reward.

  • Robbie

    Hey, why not do away with the minimum wage all together? After all if we did that we would truly find out what labour was worth. And seeing as there are so many folks without jobs that would mean the people desperate enough would accept lower and lower pay. Soon enough they would not even get enough to pay the bus fare to work and beyond that working people would soon be earning on a par with workers in China. And all of that would mean more and more profits for those who are already rich. This is a win – win proposal.

    • Verland Gilliam

      haha. Robbie, that is a false scenario. People are generally pretty smart. They will not keep working for less and less. In fact that is exactly why the Unions was formed in the first place. They wanted someone to speak on their behalf and even paid them to do it. However, people in those days did not have the education that people have today and nowadays people speak for themselves. And believe me, if they don’t like the min. wage of today, they will not accept less tomorrow. That won’t happen.

      • Robbie

        Many workers still need union representation. And don’t kid yourself, there are many on the far right who would love to do away with labour unions and with the minimum wage.

      • wandamurline

        Take a good look at Detroit….a really good reason to have unions running businesses….the union bosses get richer and the working grunts get took. The unions have run businesses out of the country faster than the government can spend money. It is time for all states to be a “right to work” state….where you can get a job and not have to be in a union to do so.

        • Verland Gilliam

          You’re exactly right and the Union is what made us almost lose our “Twinkies”. (I like Twinkies, by the way). But once upon a time we needed Unions, but they have outlived their worthiness and have in most cases become nothing but a bunch of crooks inciting mobs to unruliness.

          • Scifidave

            No, unions have not outlived their usefulness. In point of fact we need unions more now than we’ve needed them since the 30s.

            Please, don’t let bad examples (like the AFL-CIO in Detroit in the 70s) taint the whole bunch. Most unions are well managed and work well with management. The media won’t tell you that any more than pro-capitalists will.

            There has been a well orchestrated campaign to pillory unions since their inception and because of the success of that, union membership has been declining since the mid 40s. It now represents less than 4% of our national workforce. Hardly the powerhouse necessary to drive jobs overseas.

          • Verland Gilliam

            You may think that small percentages pack little to no punch when in the ring of politics but here is a tidbit of news for you. Did you know that the Jewish population of this country is the smallest minority group of our entire population? Did you know that 98% of the eligible Jewish voter’s actually do vote.? Did you know that the Jews of America have congregated primarily in 9 States out of our 50 States? And did you know that voters of all of these 9 States are heavily influenced by Jewish politicians, or Jewish companies, and overall Jewish money? And did you know that all of these 9 States went to Obama in his first election to the Presidency? And the pay back of course, was when Obama loaded his Cabinet with Jews. Just shows you what a small percentage of the population can do. So, when you talk about the Unions representing less than 4% of the work force, that is one large percentage when you calculate WHAT that 4 % really is. For example, a large percentage of the work force consists of low paying jobs, such as the fast food business, and the lawn care industry, construction workers, and many, many more of the entrepreneurial type jobs. So when you divide or categorize the work force and then claim 4% of that part which packs a huge hammer on the political arena then you’re probably talking about 4% of 15 to 20 % of the entire work force, or put another way, the 4% becomes about 50% of that very important group that actually can be influential in the overall workforce and in the political arena. Obama capitalized greatly on the Union vote. Without the Union vote, and money from PAC’s supported by big money men like George Soros, Obama would never become President. Simple as that.

          • Scifidave

            Obama became president because he was the right man at the right time and enough of the swing voters knew that to make it happen.

            The Republicans easily outspent the Dems and pulled every dirty trick they could, but there was something else afoot, something culture shattering, something that would convince the world of who we are as a people. You know as well as any how poorly the world saw us after the Bush/Cheney episode. We needed to improve our standing. McCain/Palin couldn’t because the message that would’ve sent was ‘that Americans were racist ideologues without a clue’.

            Obama told the world that we were succeeding in getting past our racism and that Americans wanted to change.

            It was a powerful signal we sent to the world. And that is irregardless of how Obama performed after the election.

            I assume you think the Jews bought the election.

          • Verland Gilliam

            Just presume for a moment that everything I said above is true, then add into that the FACT that George Soros donated several hundreds of millions of dollars to Democrat PAC’s across the country for the purpose of individual members to donate to the Obama campaign so as to appear like most of Obama’s campaign funds were coming from the ‘little guy’ while the other candidates were receiving large sums (maximum allowable) from corporate heads and people of wealth, generally, and it was reported exactly like that by the news media with the end result being that Obama was for the people while the others were merely a carbon copy of what is wrong with America, then I ask you, ‘Did the BIG money buy the election or not?’

          • Verland Gilliam

            BTW, IF you could list some of the “dirty tricks” that the Republicans pulled, I would appreciate it. I must have missed something one way or the other, for I truly thought the Democrats pulled the “dirty tricks” such as what I mentioned about Geo.Soros’s donations and the fact that the news media is owned by these same big money people. They could print anything they wanted, and it was all Obama. Some people actually thought he might be the return of Jesus Christ. Or at least some sort of Messiah or Mullah, or Ayatollah, and as it has turned out he is less a “Commander in Chief” than a common corporal.

        • Bill

          Good analogy, Wanda

          • Scifidave

            Do you homework, Bill.

        • Scifidave

          That is a poor analogy. It ignores a huge number of contributing factors, including but not limited to miss-management and poor foresight by the big 3 auto makers, Detroit government and the union leadership.

          The Detroit scenario is far more complicated than union bosses enriching themselves. I suggest you read a good book or two that explains how Detroit failed.

          ‘Right to work’ means one thing – the right of management to fire without cause. Don’t let the wording confuse you.

          • Robert Messmer

            Well yes its more complicated but not overly much. Try 60 years of Democratic control. “Mismanagement and poor foresight” yep they allowed the unions to dictate terms. For instance if someone has managed to slide a year or two, you are not allowed to fire them and hire/keep someone who is new because the union member (ie someone paying the union protection money) has longevity–even though he is not doing the job properly. Unions requiring two “firemen” (coal shovelers) on diesel or electric trains. And do you seriously think that management is just going to walk through the factory, store, whatever and fire GOOD workers?

          • Scifidave

            No question there has been many excesses perpetrated by unions, but to focus on that totally ignores the contribution unions have made to our quality of life.

            I’d much rather deal with the excesses of unions than the excesses of greed capitalism which, as the 2008 meltdown has shown us, currently has the upper hand and has perpetrated great evil on us all in the name of enormous profit.

          • Robert Messmer

            The problem is that the Union bosses, even the legitimate ones, are only interested in transferring the excesses of the capitalists into their personal bank accounts.

          • Scifidave

            Yet another generalization. One size fits all. Black and white. If only life were that simple.

          • Robert Messmer

            Tell you what the first union that starts a business from scratch, builds it into some kind of success and then voluntarily turns over all the profits to the workers, you let me know. In the meantime you can continue to wail about the evils of “greed capitalism” {hey would that be a generalization that you made?} all you want.

          • Scifidave

            All new unions started from scratch and became a business. Some grew into a force to be reckoned with. Some became corrupt, like a lot more companies than I could ever list.

            Greed capitalism is what’s strangling our nation. Good capitalism is what can save it.

          • Robert Messmer

            LOL ok fine so you got two out of the three–name one union that turned all profits over to the workers.

          • Scifidave

            Name me one company that turns all its profits over to the workers. Just one.

          • Robert Messmer

            Yes you are a fiction writer but even you should know that business are set up to make money, not to give it away.

  • rbrooks

    if mcdonalds raised their wages to 15 an hour, it would increase the cost of a big mac by $.60.

    while you are groping with that one.

    they make $.06 an item on the dollar menu. if minimum wage was 15 an hour, & mcdonalds made it a 2 dollar menu, they would make twice as much as previous.

    and their sales would increase. more people with more disposable income.

    keep pushing low wages. eventually you will be included. well, those few of you that actually have a job.

    • Bill

      R,
      My advice is for you to take your own money, buy a McDonalds franchise and then you can pay your employees whatever you want

      • rbrooks

        your ignorant illogical ‘advice’ is how we got to this point.

        • Scifidave

          There is some logic to rbrooks post, though I think the figures are off base.

          • Robert Messmer

            The figures are off-based and the logic sucks. He states that “and their sales would increase. more people with more disposable income.” That is only true if that particular McDonalds only sells their product to their employees. And the 6 cents profit on the one dollar menu only becomes 10 cents on the two dollar menu. Plus he completely disregards the additional tax burden on the employer for his increased portion of SS, Medicare and Unemployment taxes which are a function of the wage payed.

          • rbrooks

            raising wages across the board would create more customers than just mcdonalds employees.

            the increased costs are figured in. it would raise the cost of a big mac $.60.

            it would give $.12 per item on a $2 dollar menu.

            one of the problems with your low wage theory is the lack of a customer with the means to buy your product or service.

            none of you must have any business experience. you opened your business hoping your customers would all be low wage labor??? really???

            i want all of my customers to be high wage earners. at least i know they can pay when i sell them.

          • Scifidave

            In order to understand the complexity of economic models you must first be aware of them.

            As a business owner, labor and tax cost were factors I couldn’t ignore, but, like all good businessmen, I looked more to the net results: could hiring additional employees or increasing the pay package of current employees result in a higher net gain.

            I found that paying my people better than the industry norm resulted in greater productivity and happier customers, which resulted in a higher net gain.

            It also meant that I was increasing the local economic activity which created more jobs and more buyers. Basic economics.

          • rbrooks

            you are using the henry ford model. a great example of basic economics.

          • Robert Messmer

            AH but you never stated give everyone in America a pay raise. You said if McDonalds paid their employees $15 an hour it would increase sales. There is a vast difference between one store raising wages and everybody in the country getting a pay raise.

          • rbrooks

            a raise in federal minimum wage would affect everyone.

          • Robert Messmer

            But not to the same extent since everyone is not covered by the same federal minimum wage. Besides which no where in your posts did you state “raise federal minimum wage to $15 an hour”.

          • rbrooks

            it is an ongoing debate about wages. the feds are considering raising the minimum wage. some workers are trying to unionize.

            the mcdonalds example shows how raising wages would actually be beneficial to business and the economy.

            low wage positions are not going to ever drive the economy.

            the vast majority of the current low wage workers would be affected by a minimum wage increase.

          • rbrooks

            there is more than some logic. it is a proven economic fact.

            but logic and facts have very little chance with most of those on this site.

            it is amusing to watch them.

        • Robert Messmer

          McDonalds will consider you for a franchise if you have $750,000 in non-borrowed assets.

          • rbrooks

            what was your point? i can get a better return with less risk and hassle.

  • wandamurline

    My son worked for McDonalds while he went through college…they were willing to work around his schedule and he was paid more than minimum wage. The problem is that since Obama took office and the jobs have disappeared because of the failed bailouts, etc….these jobs at McDonalds were usually taken by high school and college students. But with unemployment staying at between 7.4 and 7.6, you are finding adults cannot find work (because of the evil capitalists), so they are filling the jobs usually taken by the younger generation. If I owned a franchise and the crew left to protest for more money, there would be a new person flipping that burger when they got back. Like everyone else says….if they want to make $15 and hour, maybe they should move to a higher end restaurant where they get wages and tips.

    • Scifidave

      Our current economic problems have nothing to do with who is in the White House and blaming President Obama is partisan and dishonest.

      If you’ll take the time to research business and economic trends you’ll see that our current woes started in the late 60s and have grown progressively worse as quarterly profits took precedence over all else. Greed, and the power that buys, has become the model. We honor the fabulously wealthy and decry the poor slob who has been disadvantaged all his life.

      For our system to work properly we need a healthy and well maintained workforce. That includes burger flippers. Paying them subsistence wages serves no one except the god of profit and greed.

  • tim

    As soon as you dumbazzez get your 15 an hour landlords will just raise the rent from 500 to a 1000 a month then your right back where you started from. When the labor costs go up so does everything else. Fast food jobs were meant to be a stepping stone job, not a career!!! Get a grant and go to school and get an education instead of being lazy. Some of you still need to get your GED or learn to speak English. Every name I saw in the original article in the las vegas paper had latino names, so I’m sure the unions are trying to get the illegals all hyped up for the higher wages!!!!

    • Scifidave

      One doesn’t necessarily follow the other. This is an old, often trotted out argument that serves to benefit only the capitalists.

      Fast food jobs were meant as a stepping stone for young people just entering the work force, but because of greed many disenfranchised workers with higher skills find themselves flipping burgers because the economic opportunities have dried up.

      Grant requests are complicated (requiring special training) and take a great deal of time to complete. Most people don’t qualify or are simply incapable of meeting the regulatory requirements.

      Hard for many to go to school after working like a dog all day for poor pay then coming home to try to meet the needs of your family when there just isn’t enough to go around.

      Remember that in order for our economic system to function properly, all workers need to be rewarded with a living wage. In other words, we need dishwashers and garbagemen just as much as we need CEOs.

      Increase wages and you put more money in the local economies which increases job opportunities and improves our quality of life.

      What you fail to consider is that, despite vastly increased worker productivity, wages have stagnated or declined while wealth accumulation at the top has continued to increase at an alarming rate, stripping the middle and lower classes of their share of the pie. That is not only patently unfair, but a formula for economic decline and eventual failure.

    • Robert Messmer

      Latino names do not equal illegals. Many more legal latinos (at least for now) in this country than illegals. But yes, if they get their pay raise they are demanding, at the next lease landlord will raise the rent.