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The Fiscal Cliff Is A Mirage, But A Real Cliff Is Ahead

December 3, 2012 by  

The Fiscal Cliff Is A Mirage, But A Real Cliff Is Ahead
PHOTOS.COM

Don’t worry over the so-called fiscal cliff. It is just the latest in a long line of crises created by the elected sociopath class as another ploy to extract more wealth from the middle class and further advance its agenda.

The cliff you need to worry about is the one we are barreling toward regardless of how the fiscal cliff negotiations turn out. It’s the hyperinflation cliff. It’s dead ahead. It has become unavoidable. The Nation is in default.

The fiscal cliff is the term adopted to refer to the end of the misnamed George Bush tax cuts (which expire on Dec. 31) and sequestration ($1.2 trillion in cuts to social programs and defense spending that kick in on Jan. 1 barring a budget deal). It’s an unpalatable option to the political class because the political class hates cutting government — which reduces the power of the state — and uses a progressive tax rate to help reinforce the Hegelian dialectic.

President Barack Obama and his redistributionist minions have drawn a line in the sand over the misnamed George W. Bush tax cuts (because Obama extended them in 2010, we will rightly call them Obama tax cuts). Obama wants to end his own tax cuts on those making more than $200,000 ($250,000 for joint filers). This, despite his statement in 2010: “You don’t raise taxes in a recession.”

The United States remains in the old or has entered into a new recession. As John Williams of Shadowstats.com writes here (subscription required): “[T]here has been no recovery in economic activity, since the economy plunged from 2006/2007 into mid-2009, just ongoing low-level stagnation. Reporting of retail sales, production and durable goods orders shows the economy turning down, once again, into what will become recognized as the second-dip of a double-dip recession, likely timed from third-quarter 2012. The reality remains that current economic woes are an ongoing part of protracted economic collapse, not the beginning of a new cycle.”

While the “official” phony-baloney government statistics show U.S. gross domestic product rising steadily since late 2009, real GDP growth remains stagnant, as it has since late 2009, and mirrors real unemployment, retail sales and housing starts.

Federal Reserve Chairman Ben Bernanke has instituted QE3 to infinity. This will serve to prop up banks and the establishment, but it will hasten the demise of the dollar. (Watch the prices of gold and silver for confirmation.) It’s out-and-out theft from the American worker, saver and retiree.

QE3 and the unwillingness of the political class to make substantial and substantive cuts to government have prompted Williams to shorten his outer hyperinflation timeline from 2018 to 2014.

America is a warfare/welfare state. A full 20 percent ($718 billion) of the Federal budget in 2011 was spent on perpetual war, defense and security-related international activities. “This portion of the budget is untouchable,” according the neocon/warfare wing of both parties.

Another 21 percent ($769 billion) went to Medicare, Medicaid and the Children’s Health Insurance Program (CHIP). An additional 13 percent ($466 billion) went to safety-net programs like SSI, food stamps, school meals, housing and childcare assistance, etc. “These are untouchable,” according to redistributionist class of both parties.

And 20 percent ($731 billion) paid for Social Security, which provided retirement benefits to 35.6 million workers and other benefits to another 19.8 million spouses and children of retired workers, spouses and children of deceased workers, disabled workers and their eligible dependents. Social Security is considered an entitlement program, but it should not be since it is supposedly funded by money confiscated from workers — who had no say in the matter — to fund their retirement. The program was long ago looted by the elites and is the biggest Ponzi scheme in history. “Social Security is sacrosanct and untouchable,” leadership of both parties lie to you as they confiscate the funds faster than they pour in.

Obama and his redistributionist minions play the class-warfare game to perfection, pitting the poor against the so-called rich in order to steal more from the middle class. Their big lie is that the “rich” pay a lower percentage of income in taxes than the poor or middle class. The politics of envy — nasty, vile and green wealth envy that causes some to wish ill will or disaster on others who have enjoyed more success and has turned to hatred in the hearts of many — is advancing us toward total totalitarianism and one world governance.

And now Republicans — supposedly the party of low taxes and smaller government — are joining the growing ranks of redistributionists and feeding the dialectic. (Of course, anyone who has paid attention knows better than to fall for the big Republican lie.)

According to Internal Revenue Service data, the highest average tax rates in America are paid by those making between $1.5 million and $2 million. Their tax rate is 25.1 percent. Tax rates then begin to fall on incomes greater than $2 million, as a greater percentage of income comes from capital gains and dividends. Still, those making more than $200 million pay an 18 percent tax rate on their adjusted gross income.

Those making $1 million to less than $1.5 million pay a 24.9 percent tax rate. Those making $500,000 to less than $1 million pay 24.1 percent, and those in the $200,000 to less than $500,000 range pay 19.6 percent. Tax rates below $200,000 break down as follows:

  • $100,000 to less than $200,000 incomes pay 12 percent.
  • $50,000 to less than $100,000 incomes pay 7.5 percent.
  • $30,000 to less than $50,000 incomes pay 4.8 percent.
  • Those making less than $30,000 paid no Federal taxes after deductions and credits.

Representative Tom Price (R-Ga.) says Obama’s plan to increase taxes on the rich will generate only enough revenue to fund the Federal government for eight days. What he doesn’t tell you is that income taxes don’t fund the government. They are simply a wealth redistribution/information gathering tool used by the government.

Price is one of the employees of the state who daily work to propagandize the masses on the idea that there is government debt and that money (sometimes called “revenue” to fool the people with doublespeak) to pay that debt must be confiscated from the masses. But there is no debt. Ask yourself this question: If you had a machine that would crank out an unlimited number of bills, would you have debt? Of course not. And that’s what government does.

Government debt is a world-class delusion. It is a tool used to justify theft and redistribution. And it has worked to perfection, pitting the have-nots against the haves, while the 1 percent (government workers and elected class) make out like the bandits they are. Meanwhile, many become ever more embittered over the idea that someone may have a greater pile of worthless green paper strips than they do.

It won’t be too much longer before people will be papering their walls with the green paper strips they’re so jealous of others for having. Study your history, and look to Weimar Germany as the example.

Workers were transporting wheelbarrows of cash to the store for bread, hoping to arrive before the prices changed. The price of coffee would triple between the time it was poured and the time it was consumed and the check arrived. Mothers prostituted themselves so their kids could be fed.

The next U.S. Great Depression is the cliff to be concerned with. Time is short. Store food (buying it now is also a hedge against inflation) and water, guns and ammunition, and personal hygiene items. Accumulate silver and gold. This Christmas, give silver as a gift that keeps giving — especially pre-1965 U.S. silver coins:

  • Dec. 1, 2000: silver $4.69/oz.; today: silver $34.28/oz.
  • Dec. 1, 2000: Dow Jones industrial average 14,053; today: DJIA 13,023.

Times will be especially difficult for the unprepared and those who depend upon the system for sustenance.

Bob Livingston

is an ultra-conservative American and author of The Bob Livingston Letter™, founded in 1969. Bob has devoted much of his life to research and the quest for truth on a variety of subjects. Bob specializes in health issues such as nutritional supplements and alternatives to drugs, as well as issues of privacy (both personal and financial), asset protection and the preservation of freedom.

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  • Michael J.

    Dear Bob,
    Great reporting and good advice. In addition to preparing, land aquisition in less populated rural farming communities is a wise choice. Backwater counties run by like minded good ole boys who’ve never heard of Agenda 21 will stave off it’s effects for at least a short time and provide a fall back destination when things in urban settings become intolerable. Like most, my primary business of 30 years is tied to, and dependent on urban clientel. But because of foreseen necessity, I have created a secondary business based upon the needs of rural farmers and ranchers. By running both businesses simultaneously, I have made for myself an eight day work week… but hey, never let a good challenge go to waste (in the spirit of recognizing and then utilizing the tactics of our globalist oppressors)

    • JUKEBOX

      People are too blind to see what Obama was telling them during the campaign, when he used the old Communist slogan “FORWARD”. He actually was telling everyone that he was moving forward to financial disaster.

      • Michael J.

        Jukebox,
        Anyone can become a sorcerror when they have as an ally the Media, Hollywood and Academia. And don’t forget the eager army of entitlement sponges who have learned to associate voting with receiving checks.
        Add to that the fact that they now own the voting machines and you have an unbeatable, unstopable runaway locomotive.

        The reality we are now faced with is that the Republicans in Congress are like mice caught underfoot in the midst of an elephant stampede, and the right to vote and the power we once wielded as a result of it has been stripped away from all of us.

      • FreedomFighter

        “I find myself more amazed than ever at the ability of those in power to lie, misinform and obfuscate the truth, while millions of Americans willfully choose to be ignorant of the truth and yearn to be misled. It’s a match made in heaven. Acknowledging the truth of our society’s descent from a country of hard working, self-reliant, charitable, civic minded citizens into the abyss of entitled, dependent, greedy, materialistic consumers is unacceptable to the slave owners and the slaves. We can’t handle the truth because that would require critical thought, hard choices, sacrifice, and dealing with the reality of an unsustainable economic and societal model. It’s much easier to believe the big lies that allow us to sleep at night. The concept of lying to the masses and using propaganda techniques to manipulate and form public opinion really took hold in the 1920s and have been perfected by the powerful ruling elite that control the reins of finance, government and mass media.”

        http://www.theburningplatform.com/?p=43582

        Laus Deo
        Semper Fi

      • TIME

        Dear People,

        May I ask all of you to please take an hour of your time and watch the following Youtube feeds by a very well informed young lady named, Ann Barnhardt,
        These are broken down in to 20 minute bite sized chunks so as to not push you to far over the edge all at one time.

        They are called: { The Economy is going to Implode}

        I think you will get a whole new understanding on this topic.

        Rather than the Mass media’s spin on Cliffs and vallys and waterfalls and wonderwalls and all the sweet little marshmellow chickens in many fun colors, all of what are very bad for your health!

        Peace and Love be with you all. Merry Christmas

      • http://comcast the fisherman

        you sure sound like a pickerwood

      • http://www.facebook.com/benjamin.fox.98892 Benjamin Fox

        Jukebox; your have it right, obozo is a marxist sob, going for his dictatorship degree and people are so blind and dumb they only see give me, give me, and throw their freedoms into the wind, a bunch of plantation slaves made up of blacks, whites and idiots. God help this Godless nation even when we don’t deserve it.

    • NewWorldOrder

      Your 100% on Michael J. Dear Bob, hear this, people can,t survive on Gold and stored food for long. They are better off being Self efficent on farms or living among farming communities. Small town America is safer and food is bentiful[sp]. Large box chain groceries stores borrow millions to float their inventorys and that $$ won,t be there. Stores will close and items will be expensive and scarce, suburbs[sp] will be hit hard, starvation or hunger. Get to the country, NOW

  • Jimmy the Greek

    Soon we well look like Germany in 1932 , I hope you all have a wheelbarrow so you can carry enough money to the store so you can get beans and a bag of rice .

    • Dagger

      Wheelbarrow???
      Think in terms of a dump truck or a tractor-trailer rig. What is coming will make the German recession of the early 1930′s look like a picnic.
      Food riots are just over the horizon. People will be killing each other over a few morsels of food when they can find it.

      • John

        Yes Dagger that will be the tell. When the welfare class can no longer buy their Crack, Crystal meth, and Alcohol with our money they will riot. I personally can’t wait. This is the only way to end this charade of the USA. The Constitution is gone, Freedom is gone, lets make this corrupt system gone! It is ironic really because the Globalists want to destroy this country, and clearly they have won. But really they have lost. The heart of the country and its core beliefs are stronger than ever and the flame of liberty has been relit by the Globalists actions.

      • JC

        Amen that John. And the sooner the better.
        If you believe in destiny, then perhaps it is best that the Kenyan is still ensconsed in the WH. He is fulfilling the function of getting the patriots angry…enough.

      • TIME

        Dear little fish,

        Yes, I know I sound like a {pickerwood} ~ but the question is still remains just what is a Bloody pickerwood?

        OMG ~ I get it ~ I do play guitar and they are made of wood and one also use’s a pick, so that’s what you’re saying. Hey ~ Thanks, for taking note of my guitar playing.

        Peace and Love ~. Merry Christmas little fish..

      • FastJack

        Whether planned or coincidental, the current administration has accomplished almost every requirement necessary for any far left socialist or statist to overthrow a democracy and establish a dictatorship. Only one prerequiste remains, confiscation of guns. Accomplishments to date include control of the media, nationalized healthcare, nationalized key financial and manufacturing companies, consolidation of military power (replace domestic military reserves with paramilitary force under obamacare complete), creation of class hatred and division (rich v. poor, brown v. white races, war v. peace, taxation v. top line econmic growth, (promote windmills over oil) fragmentation of one national language, (Spanish v. English) relax border security, creation of a welfare state to dominate the masses (47% now on some form of the dole) control national voting practices at the polls to extend power, emasculate the rule of law and create crushing debt to achieve financial collapse and martial law, Only the confiscation of guns remains to achieve a bloodless coup versus a bloody civil war. Clinton is about to circumvent the 2nd amendment problem through selling out our consititution and sovereignty through signing an International Agreement for Gun Control….maybe as early as March, 2013 in support of a “new world order”. How 100 million+ legal gun owners in America subsequently react to confiscation, if it comes to pass, will dictate our path going forward. The millions of illegal ner do well gun owners in America will of course not be impacted, other than they will be able to then practice thier trade freely without concern for violent resistance from their victims. I pray that all of this is in fact coincidental.

    • GALT

      Now why would we look like Germany in 1932? This not a great article…..this is stuff
      that will not happen……after all, buried amidst this hype is a very interesting line…….
      “there is no debt”!!!!!!! Which is the ultimate and only solution…..but get the history RIGHT FIRST…..as well as the cause……

      In order to pay the large costs of World War I, Germany suspended the convertibility of its currency into gold when that war broke out. Unlike France, which imposed its first income tax to pay for the war, the German Kaiser and Parliament decided without opposition to fund the war entirely by borrowing,[13] a decision criticised by financial experts like Hjalmar Schacht even before hyperinflation broke out.[14] The result was that the exchange rate of the Mark against the US dollar fell steadily throughout the war from 4.2 to 8.91 Marks per dollar. The Treaty of Versailles, however, accelerated the decline in the value of the Mark, so that by the end of 1919 more than 47 paper Marks were required to buy one US dollar.[15] Because war reparations were required to be repaid in hard currency and not the rapidly depreciating Papiermark, one strategy Germany employed was the mass printing of bank notes to buy foreign currency which was in turn used to pay reparations, greatly exacerbating inflation rates of the paper mark.[16][17]

      When the new currency, the Rentenmark, replaced the worthless Reichsbank marks on November 16, 1923 and 12 zeros were cut from prices, prices in the new currency remained stable. The German people regarded this stable currency as a miracle[24] because they had heard such claims of stability before with the Notgeld (emergency money) that rapidly devalued as an additional source of inflation.[25] The usual explanation was that the Rentenmarks were issued in a fixed amount and were backed by hard assets such as agricultural land and industrial assets, but what happened was more complex than that, as summarized in the following description.

      The monetary law of August 30, 1924 permitted exchange of each old paper 1 trillion Mark note for one new Reichsmark, equivalent in value to one Rentenmark.

      See…….no more hyperinflation, and nowhere close to 1932.

      These are excerpts from:

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperinflation_in_the_Weimar_Republic

      Then we have The Lords of Finance for the rest of the story.

      One of the main themes of the book is the role played by the central bankers’ insistence to adhere to the gold standard “even in the face of total catastrophe.”[1] As Joe Nocera, a book reviewer at the New York Times, stated, “the central bankers were prisoners of the economic orthodoxy of their time: the powerful belief that sound monetary policy had to revolve around the gold standard…Again and again, this straitjacket caused the central bankers — especially Norman, gold’s most fervent advocate — to make moves, like raising interest rates, that would allow their countries to hold on to their dwindling gold supplies, even though the larger economy desperately needed help in the form of lower interest rates.”[2]

      The book was awarded the 2010 Pulitzer Prize for History,[4] the 2010 Spear’s Book Award (Financial History Book of the Year), the 2010 Arthur Ross Book Award Gold Medal, the 2009 Financial Times and Goldman Sachs Business Book of the Year Award. For 2009 it was recognized as one of Time magazine’s “Best Books of the Year”, New York Times “Best Books of the Year” and Amazon.com’s “Best Books of the Year”. It was shortlisted for the Samuel Johnson Prize.

      a simple search will provide more details…..

      So at the core of the “hyperinflation” and the “great depression”, we have it’s ultimate cause:”the central bankers were prisoners of the economic orthodoxy of their time: the powerful belief that sound monetary policy had to revolve around the gold standard…”

      Seems rather foolish to be claiming that what caused these things…..is the “solution”
      to the present problems…….and since we are no longer bound to “gold”…..hyperinflation is a stretch……

      The concept of “sound money” is at the core of the mythology of “economics”….

      What should be fairly obvious is that “money” as a medium of exchange ( regardless
      of substance ) and the attempts to control it’s influence…….are at the center of the
      problem………but combined with this and what you are really facing…….is a
      corresponding myth in the form of “growth”……..which is critical to economic theory.

      Unfortunately “infinite growth requires infinite resources”……..and we do not
      have “infinite resources”……and we passed the point of balance some time ago,
      so we are in a cycle of “diminishing returns” whose effects are just beginning to
      assert themselves and will continue to do so………and this is combined with
      enormous economic disparity………on a worldwide scale……….with “wealth concentrations” that will continue to seek to do, what they have always done.

      Failure to recognize this…….will be more like the slow turning of the screw
      and the cost will be in human lives and suffering with rising prices for essential
      commodities……..and since none of what has been said here is actually part of
      the reality which most of you perceive……this is your future.

      It will not be quick…….so enjoy the ride.

      • speedle

        Unh……………Whatzzat? Galt, you’re spiel sounds like the over dubbed narration at the start of a “Lord of the Rings” movie or other some such fantasy.

      • Jimmy the Greek

        Looks like the zionest bankers liked that book ! Burn It !

      • nickkin

        Cut and paste, cut and paste….you should get outside and get some fresh air…..your breathing your own monoxide and it makes your brain rattle on and on and on.

      • OneGuess

        AND,,,here’s Jimmy, the ever ready antisemite, to blame everything on the Joooos. ‘Get a life.

      • Les

        How about posting your address so we can look you up when the crash happens so we can all say “I told you so…” Since nothing will be working and you will perform a vanishing act on the net, if there is one. You should send your resume to Øbama since he is looking to replace Timmy with a much smarter economist. Then you too can climb in bed with Bernanke or whoever replaces him. By your rant, infinite money is not the problem. I’m not an economics major but I do understand the law of supply and demand. The more there is of something (anything), the less demand there is for it. Guess what happens when you rush to infinity with the supply of anything including paper? That’s right, people stop accepting it since you are continuously devaluing it.

      • GALT

        I wouldn’t worry about it either way……and learning to read is the skill you should be
        concentrating on……..as for the wall paper scenario………not likely….since the
        “supply” is quite limited…….total U.S. Currency in circulation 1.15 Trillion…..1.11
        Trillion in FRN which is $3,484. per person……..

        I would suggest that you read what was written again, but it probably wouldn’t matter…..
        hyper inflation was only a problem created by obstinacy…and quite easily resolved
        once cooler heads prevailed……

        But if you want someone’s address, I would suggest Capitalist from Birth….he predicted
        the housing crisis in 1999…..way before any such prediction would have been possible for that market……..find out what he thinks……..then you will know what is not going to
        happen.

      • momo

        GALT says:”So at the core of the “hyperinflation” and the “great depression”, we have it’s ultimate cause:”the central bankers were prisoners of the economic orthodoxy of their time: the powerful belief that sound monetary policy had to revolve around the gold standard…”

        So are the politicians of today constrained by their “economic orthodoxy”?

      • Mr.Ben

        Galt, you say there is a solution for US inflation by looking how Weimar handled their hyper-situation, by chopping off 12 zeros, thus everything worked out. This is a good observation so far as how it would’ve helped those who held German marks, I would imagine mostly Germans (as mentioned, Germany paid reparations by swapping currencies). There is a big difference in the dollar situation. Every country on Earth uses oil, therefore every country has dollars. If the US decided to chop 12 zeros off our debt, the situation would be entirely different. The amount of $ currency floating around is much more than 1trillion + when you account for every market, china alone holds more than that! And when did it ever make sense that gold (a commodity that requires and has no regulation) become the reason for the Great Depression? You say, central banks felt constrained by gold”, well, that is the idea.

      • phideaux

        galt you should become a profesional fantasy writer since you seem to be an expert at it on these forums.

      • GALT

        For Mr. Ben:

        Galt, you say there is a solution for US inflation by looking how Weimar handled their hyper-situation, by chopping off 12 zeros, thus everything worked out.

        Actually, Mr. Ben I didn’t say that……that was a portion of what is contained in the “link” regarding the “history” which was being corrected……specifically, the reference to “1932 Germany”, by the poster to whom I was “responding” who apparently was “ignorant” of the “history” of German “hyperinflation” ( as to when it took place ) as also to point out again, the this continuous mantra regarding the “gold standard” and/or “sound money” which is a “common mythology” of P.L.D. Ron Paul, the austrian school, the tea party ( whomever and whatever they actually are ) et al.

        The history is that for both hyperinflation as well as and the “final economic result” of this period; the great depression: the gold standard was in fact, responsible for both……..more complete information regarding the “hyperinflation” in the “link”, and you can find more information on the book, by doing a title search….as posting multiple links here, results in “editorial approval” or a total disappearance of the post altogether…….

        This is a good observation so far as how it would’ve helped those who held German marks, I would imagine mostly Germans (as mentioned, Germany paid reparations by swapping currencies).

        Unfortunately, that is not what it says……..reparations were required to be paid in “gold”…….”currency swapping” was a means of “attempting” to pay reparations…….and resulted in the “hyperinflation” of German CURRENCY…….see link.
        There is a big difference in the dollar situation.

        Absolutely correct…..it is NOT LINKED TO GOLD!

        Every country on Earth uses oil, therefore every country has dollars. If the US decided to chop 12 zeros off our debt, the situation would be entirely different. The amount of $ currency floating around is much more than 1trillion + when you account for every market, china alone holds more than that!

        The word currency means CURRENCY….the figures posted are for CURRENCY………and in the context used……the “wall paper” scenario, and the per capita amount, you might be able to decorate a large walk in closet, provided the $3484 was not in “hundreds”…….if you required a wheel barrow full…….it would not be “available”……

        And when did it ever make sense that gold (a commodity that requires and has no regulation) become the reason for the Great Depression? You say, central banks felt constrained by gold”, well, that is the idea.

        Yes, and that is the POINT……it is the WRONG IDEA, and you are back where you started…….where I am is:

        The subject of “economics” as a science and/or discipline is a “myth”.

        If you wish to understand why I hold this conclusion as to the sources and evidence used you may investigate and form your own opinion, here is the material you will require….( sorry, no free links are available, although some of the authors have done interviews and lectures which you can find on line if you are willing to look, and you can find the “synopsis” of each volume also……. )

        The Lords of Finance ( covers actual “history” from 1918 thru 1945 )

        Debt: The First 5000 Years……actual coinage does not surface (money) until 800 B.C. and “barter” did NOT come first.

        Power, Inc……..the history of “corporate entities” beginning in 1100, and tracing their evolution to the present in all forms…..

        Econned………tracing the modern era of economics…and why it fails on the “simplest”……..”supply and demand” level.

        Economics Unmasked………why economics doesn’t work…..the shortest path………

        Extreme Money: similar to econned, but more detailed as to the effects of the creation of “debt instruments”, the fact that neither governments, nor central banks have any ‘control” over what is happening and why?

        • Mr.Ben

          For Galt, there is absolutely nothing wrong with polite and understandable rhetoric. From what I’ve seen, this site could use more of it. From blatant name calling to intellectual confustication, your comments have lined up in the latter Galt. An intelligent person isn’t just required to use qualified information, they are supposed to communicate it effectively. This is where you lose many people, and it’s not a compliment. I’m a teacher by profession and at heart, if people don’t understand my thoughts through words, than I’ve failed. I constantly read, I’m not illiterate, a good communicator, and I have to read everything you write at least twice to just understand what your point might be. Please get off any high horse you find yourself on in your perceived “role” on this site and try to make more sense. With that said, let’s move on.

          Money can be divided up beyond just the currency role you’re defending so heavily. That doesn’t include people’s savings/checking accounts, money market funds, CDs, etc…Just because there’s not enough actual currency to “use $ as wall-paper”, that doesn’t diminish Bob’s example. If you want to be semantic about it; When the rest of the world decides to not accept US dollars anymore, Americans will be able to “use $, bonds, checks, traveler cheques, small CDs, and large CDs, as wall-paper”. As of 2009 they would have $8.3 trillion to do it with, or $25,429/person. But, there are two problems with this number; one, it doesn’t include any of the QEs, other bailouts, nor the $16trillion given to foreign banks last year. And two, this information comes directly from the Federal Reserve and I don’t trust their numbers.

          I see no point in arguing a gold standard with you (yet) or where to point the blame during the Great Depression (although, both Greenspan and Bernake have written words blaming the federal reserve system at one point). Those people in the Austrian school you so easily brush aside explain economics very clearly. Economics from an Austrian perspective is an easy process to understand, as it should be! Which is why people (high-schoolers even!) with no background are becoming interested in politics and economics. Money is not complicated. Unless you create a system based on a false idea of what money is, ie. “money not chosen by the people, but forced onto them”. Studying Keynesian economics (I imagine that’s your area of expertise) and the mountain of formulas and equations created for this theory in the last 80 years, is very difficult to understand, because it’s not based in common sense or reality, unless of course you studied it in university. Economics, money, and monetary policy should not only be accessible for the PhDs out there.

          Thanks for the list of books. Is there one in particular? I will ALWAYS follow a trail, but will not spend my time on more than one until I’m convinced the juice is worth the squeeze.

          By the way, have you read any of the books that have been posted on this site from the vonMises institute?

      • GALT

        Sorry Mr. Ben………..a detailed and complete response to your post…….which should have appeared here……..can be found at the bottom of this “thread”………and will probably the last post still…..since this thread is getting older………………….

      • Marty S.

        ……………………………zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz………………………………
        …………….zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz………

    • DaveH

      In an old metaphor (during the Weimar inflation) a customer left his wheelbarrow full of cash outside a hardware store while he shopped. When he came out to get his money, it was neatly stacked against the wall, but the wheelbarrow was gone.

      • Flashy

        Don’t know many wealthy who own (or can use) a wheelbarrow…guess the 47% come out ahead on the deal eh?

      • Michael J.

        Flashy,
        Tell the truth, your own use of a wheelbarrow was responsible for your ability to walk upright. (it’s a great teaching tool!)

    • Michael J.

      Galt exhumed:
      “Unfortunately “infinite growth requires infinite resources”……..and we do not
      have “infinite resources”

      Since we live on a finite planet… good luck finding anything infinite.. aside from your self proclaimed infinite wisdom, that is.

      • GALT

        Was that supposed to be some kind of argument……?

        I guess only a “willfully ignorant, functional illiterate” would be able to explain
        how restating and agreeing with what has just been said……preceded by the word
        “since”…..makes any sense at all?

        good luck with that……

      • OneGuess

        What’s the matter, Galt? Not everyone appreciates your bloviating besides your mother.

      • GALT

        Ah, the terrifying nature of a co-ordinated mushroom attack…..0 intellect, multiplied
        endlessly…….and never at a loss for words.

      • Michael J.

        Galt,
        Just responding to babble with babble…

        You mentioned mushrooms… Psilocybin abuse would explain your “out-there” commentary that makes sense only to those under the influence. And garnering visions of perfection from fruit that springs from a cow pattie is nothing to brag about. Must be terribly frustrating being misunderstood and ridiculed, especially to one whose desperate aim is to appear superior in all things while viewing a psychedelic world through kaleidescope eyes.

        Remember this: “There is allways some one or some thing smarter than yourself!!!” Merlin

        BTW, Since I sense an underlying weakness, I’ll offer you this with sincerity: The key to social acceptance in the exchange of ideas is in the strategically timed display of humility, whether genuine or not.

      • Karolyn

        Good point, Michael.

      • Frank Kahn

        As I, gently, step onto the stage of insanity, I pause to consider my response to you and GALT.

        GALT is definitely either incapable or unwilling to conduct himself in a manner normally associated with polite conversation. While this makes what he has to say hard to read it does not reduce the possibility of truth in what he says. He is, and always will be, wrong in using the term WILLFULLY ignorant when ignorant is the proper term. The fact that I dont feel the need or desire to investigate his assertion about the gold standard, at this time, I am not willfully ignorant, merely choosing to postpone my learning. I would however call it a willful and ignorant statement to attempt to say he is wrong without investigating it. This subject will require substantial time, effort and thought to become thoroughly knowledgeable.

        Since there is more than one single topic in his post, it might be possible to raise you to functionally illiterate if you confuse the purposes of each. However I am not currently aware of a definition of functionally illiterate that would fit that case.

        He asserts that we do not have INFINITE SUPPLY for INFINITE CONSUMPTION. This is what I might call a truism. Our planet has a limit on the amount of resources that are available for our use. If we continue to increase in population the supply problem will only get worse not better. This is not a matter of money, never has been and never will. I will have to do some research to find the figures about the maximum sustainable human population. I remember hearing figures about this problem many years ago but dont remember the specifics.

        In most cases, the cause of our problems is not the bankers, it might be more closely related to consumption than money. We might even look at the financial crisis and the tactics used to solve it in the same light as human population and consumption. We have limited resources (money) we need more money to purchase more consumables, so we create more money. This in turn makes it possible for more people to consume so we need more money for them. I see a circle forming here. It is almost exactly the same with natural resource consumption. We have more people so we need more food. We develop ways to produce more food so we can have more babies, which means we need more food. Our consumption needs are also in a circular upward spiral. This consumption holds true for all aspects such as fossil fuels, timber, metals, water and air. At what point did we pass the maximum sustainable population, at what point was it optimal?

        I am not attempting to point to victims, or to whom is responsible for the situation. I am just putting out some thoughts for discussion.

        If GALT feels a need to dissagree, that is fine. If he feels a need to assert some of his normal belittling, well I guess we all have to put up with that part of his personality.

        I am not WILLFULLY IGNORANT nor am I FUNCTIONALLY ILLITERATE. I strive to learn new things every day. I admit to ignorance in many many things, I am human and incapable of knowing everything. I will not directly engage GALT in a discussion again as he has demonstrated a total inability to participate in a reasonable manner.

      • Mr.Ben

        Frank Kahn, very good point. To speak “facts” without knowledge is to be “willfully ignorant”. Which, in my thoughts, is a much greater problem than just being ignorant, ie. “not yet informed”.

        I have been trying to inform myself in the matter of gold, money, and everything in between since I first read personal liberty digest 3 years ago. Something you wrote required me to respond.

        “In most cases, the cause of our problems is not the bankers, it might be more closely related to consumption than money. We might even look at the financial crisis and the tactics used to solve it in the same light as human population and consumption. We have limited resources (money) we need more money to purchase more consumables, so we create more money. This in turn makes it possible for more people to consume so we need more money for them.”

        Money IS a limited resource, but we do not need MORE money for consumption, unless that money is paper…backed by nothing. When money was represented by gold, a limited resource, innovation in manufacturing and technology was not hindered by this finite resource. People just learned to get more from each ounce, so, prices actually deflated for the same product as time went by. Today, an ounce of gold buys the same thing it did 10-100-1000 years ago. What has changed is the value (or devalue) of the currency. When wages do not stay balanced with the rise in the gold price, all but the wealthy (specifically the bankers) begin to get poorer. So, it is in fact the problem, and fault, of bankers and their friends in government. Without this relationship, Bob wouldn’t have written this article.

        Pre-1971, America was known for 150 years for its manufacturing, savings, and thrift. Consumables lasted decades and did not need replacing every few years. Yes, prices have dropped, because the items being sold are made cheaply; tools, computers, appliances, furniture, etc…Will any American made car made post 1971 survive to be a classic? The ones made when the money spent was “moral” bought cars the consumer would’ve considered a “moral purchase”, a car that would not wear down for decades. Wouldn’t you agree? The problem isn’t consumption. By devaluing our currency we’ve devalued manufactured goods as well, creating a society that has forgotten what quality used to be like, and can only remember to consume.

        • Frank Kahn

          We seem to have a different definition of money. When I say money, I am talking about the artificial paper currency you speak of, and in that vein it is not limited. And, while you might be right that we did not NEED more money for more consumption, you are wrong that we do not need more MONEY for more CONSUMPTION. The emphasis is important because, we (humans and US citizens in particular) have a twisted idea of needs. We need more things just because, not because they are necessary, just because we want them. In modern society we sometimes use CREDIT when we dont have enough MONEY. Well, technically, when you use CREDIT you are (on paper) creating more MONEY. The only value of this money is in its capacity to purchase consumables.

          Now to your comment about “moral” purchases. I dont particularly like using the word moral but we will go with it since you did. In the modern era of manufacturing we have a doubling of the term consumable. Today, we have what is called “planned obsolescence”, which means the product is intended to have a limited lifespan. So, in effect, we consume the life of the consumable. Couple this with the speed of change in high technology products (a new laptop is obsolete within 6 months of purchase), and you have many products that are of a limited useful value to the consumer.

          What you said about less expensive products being inferior and not lasting like the previous years products, you are correct. There is a very old saying that is apropos to this and it is “You get what you pay for.”.

          What you are describing might be viewed as a symptom of the problem of demand that has outgrown sustainable supply. To be able to produce, massive, inexpensive products, something must give. In this case, it would appear that it is the quality of the products that has taken the hit.

      • GALT

        Responses for Frank, Mr Ben and the sincere ” some thing smarter than yourself!!!”
        Mr Frank, you have TODAY shown excellent restraint and admirable caution in your non-response, response to me. So much so, that it may prove useful……..for any future responses or non reponse, responses…..as you may be tempted to attempt.

        1.) He is, and always will be, wrong in using the term WILLFULLY ignorant when ignorant is the proper term.

        2.) I would however call it a willful and ignorant statement to attempt to say he is wrong without investigating it

        3.) The fact that I dont feel the need or desire to investigate his assertion about the gold standard, at this time, I am not willfully ignorant, merely choosing to postpone my learning. . This subject will require substantial time, effort and thought to become thoroughly knowledgeable.

        4.) In most cases, the cause of our problems is not the bankers, it might be more closely related to consumption than money.

        That is a remarkably “polite” discussion, between you and you…. which demonstrates that you understand the “difference” between willfull ignorance and ignorance……… from which you proceed to your claim to be “ignorant” by “choice”, because you choose” not to investigate my assertion”………and then you proceed to “discuss”, bankers and money as NOT being the cause of our problem………

        which ignores the actual subject:The concept of “sound money” is at the core of the mythology of “economics”….

        which you ARE discussing, politely, with yourself……but which strangely looks like a “willfully ignorant” argument to that which you are “not responding”?…………

        You can not claim “ignorance” while attempting to “argue” against an assertion…….without crossing the line into “willfull ignorance”……and/or “functional illiteracy”…….unless you are claiming to have “read” but “but not” read, what has been written?

        Comprehended?……………..while “not comprehending”?

        He asserts that we do not have INFINITE SUPPLY for INFINITE CONSUMPTION.

        Unfortunately “infinite growth requires infinite resources”……..and we do not have “infinite resources”

        and in complete context……

        “What should be fairly obvious is that “money” as a medium of exchange ( regardless of substance ) and the attempts to control it’s influence…….are at the center of the problem………but combined with this and what you are really facing…….is a corresponding myth in the form of “growth”……..which is critical to economic theory.

        Unfortunately “infinite growth requires infinite resources”……..and we do not have “infinite resources””
        So, Frank…..as politely as I can…….

        I am not WILLFULLY IGNORANT nor am I FUNCTIONALLY ILLITERATE.

        the evidence would seem to suggest otherwise? because “something” is going on here……..and when this has been pointed out to you previously……..POLITE is not the word I would use, to describe your reaction to anything I have “attempted to discuss” with you……..

        As tedious as this process is……( copy and paste ) it avoids turning what has been actually said:

        “infinite growth requires infinite resources”……..

        into……
        He asserts that we do not have INFINITE SUPPLY for INFINITE CONSUMPTION.

        which is not what was said, and also ignores the “context” within which it is relevant…….”a corresponding myth in the form of “growth”……..which is critical to economic theory.”

        So I agree you can be “polite” when talking to yourself, I appreciate the fact that you are “ignorant” by choice…….and you seem to have the ability to “agree to disagree” with yourself…..while engaging in a “discussion with yourself” about things you are discussing and to which you are “admitting ignorance”……while arguing and posing questions to yourself…..while “altering” what you have read……to that which you believe it means…….

        and you can do this with “others”……”equally humble” about their “confessed ignorance”……….while engaging in “polite” discussion in the mutual pursuit of………………………?

        Would that be the “polite” discussion of the “willingness to agree to disagree” on the actual state of your pre- admitted “ignorance”, by choice??????

        I am sure that there is some value to this……as I am watching this exchange of “polite ignorance” unfold before me…….which is getting a bit “feisty” using definitions and

        “And, while you might be right that we did not NEED more money for more consumption, you are wrong”……..

        and I am sure the end result will also be equally productive and POLITE………..and I mean this in the “nicest possible way.”

        So mushroom Michael J. from “babble land”……..the value of “social acceptance” while feigning “humility” is meaningful because……..?

        Who is GALT?

        Just consider the comraderie that can be shared “among” the “willfully ignorant, functional illiterates”………in a “unified cause”………while maintaining their state of “equal humble ignorance”………..and being able to demonstrate their pithy irrelevance on a regular and consistent basis.

        but please when you find that “thing” that is smarter than you…..let me know……

      • Mr.Ben

        Frank Kahn, fair enough. Money today is basically paper or credit, backed by trust. There really is no point to bring up gold as money (yet), when talking of consumption in the modern era, unless this conversation is about pointing fingers (not yet). Is consumption the fault of the consumers? The money creators? The businesses/corporations? Or just a “free market” on steroids? The world has seen paper money 1000s of times, but never has it seen it on an all encompassing global scale, such as we’ve had since Nixon cut off the gold weights. Has this improved our lives? Diminished it? Or has it had no effect at all? Lets make THIS the focus of our conversation over the next few comments and see where it takes us!

        When speaking of “infinite growth and consumption”, not many people who picture the effects of such an image are left with a positive picture, and “planned obsolescence” is a part of this process. By planning the demise-of-the-old and the introduction-of-the-new, “resources are used up making changes, often cosmetic changes, that are not of great value to the customer” (wiki). Others argue that this drives technological advances. I disagree with the latter. Do you think technology & manufacturing companies with monopolies on products would put everything they had on their “first edition”? Would computers be “obsolete in 6months” if they weren’t postponing the technology?

        “In a fast-paced competitive industry market success requires that products are made obsolete by actively developing replacements. Waiting for a competitor to make products obsolete is a sure guarantee of future demise”. (wiki).

        Fast-paced for some, controlled-pace for most. Monopolies (almost always) are created through a business/government relationship. Without these co-sponsored relationships, intranational corporations wouldn’t dominate the market, innovational speed would be motivated by discovery, not quarterly profits. Smaller corporations/businesses would be allowed to be creative and put their best product forward, the first time. Less resources used, and with more product options available, technology would naturally advance faster. Planned obsolescence wouldn’t be profitable. But this can’t happen in corpratocracy land.

        The problem ultimately lies in this private-market system. Since money has been debased from gold-paper, an immoral act, there is no constraint on our government or their pals. The power to print a nations money is an absolute power, and it will always corrupt. Business subsidies allow for impossibly powerful corps to be immoral and profitable at the same time. Galt calls it “reality”. I think it’s [expletive deleted].

        To answer my earlier questions (thus far); infinite consumption CAN be blamed on the money creators, and swapping paper for gold has diminished the quality of our lives

        • Frank Kahn

          I agree with most of your points, however I am using the term INFINITE CONSUMPTION in a slightly different sense. I posit that infinite consumption is impossible because of finite resources. It is the word infinite that is the key. The unacceptable reasons for the consumption rates we have now is a different matter.

          In most, if not all, markets, be it manufactured goods or agricultural, we tend to waste consumables. I use consumables to reference resources of all kinds, natural or man made. Some, if not all, of this waste is caused by the consumer themselves. In some cases it is merely a matter of no self control (eating to much or making too much food and throwing some out), and sometimes it is a matter of either pride or greed (I want the newest, best, most modern version). As a side note, you might recognize a couple sins there.

          I am uncertain which term is more accurate, corpratocracy or plutocracy. In either case, I agree that the corporations and the government working together for the good of the corporations is bad for the market.

          I am not in a position to know for a fact that corporations withhold new advancements and dole them out incrementally. I am aware that this is not only possible but would be advantageous to a monopoly. I am also aware that some, so called, improvements are made simply to entice the consumer to buy more (new and improved) of the same product. I have even railed against Microsoft ™ for its “fixing” the problems of a product with a new improved product (that you have to pay for).

          I am also aware of the government policies of paying farmers (corporate farms) to not grow specific crops. The reasoning for this policy is to keep them from flooding the market with a specific product. Some might say that is good, because it guarantees that the farmers will be able to sell their crops. I see it a little differently, I see it as artificially suppressing the supply in an effort to keep the prices up. Just one example of the government using a subsidy to help corporations make more money. And, this is at the expense of the taxpayer.

          Also, our conspicuous consumption seems to be a product of indoctrination. We are bombarded by commercials that tell us how we NEED this NEW and BETTER product if we want our life to be better. We, as a nation, have decided that a want is the same as a need.

      • GALT

        Not sure who that is directed at Frank……..but it was clear that the use
        of the word infinite…….was not relevant to the “mythology” of growth that
        was used in it’s intended application by me…….

        One can cite examples “ad nauseum”……..one can even assign “responsibility”
        for these examples………

        But the purpose is to “identify” the actual cause…….in it’s inductive sense, where
        one’s goal is to seek, the general rule or principle or law, that explains the
        “evidence”.

        To do this, one must properly identify the nature of the question for which one is
        seeking this general rule, law or principle…….

        For me this question is: Why have “civilizations” failed and are continuing to fail,
        irrespective of the governments and economies that were supposedly designed
        to achieve precisely the opposite result?

        From what I can tell, most people a unaware of the REALITY or the FACTS
        that make this the “correct question” for which we should be seeking the answer
        to……..

        If nothing else, it does explain the complete lack of productive conversation, which
        indicates that………intellectually, the general perception of REALITY is one of
        DENIAL.

        Given the steps which must follow to get to the desired result of the “acceptance”
        of the question………..the prospects do NOT look promising.

        • Frank Kahn

          I will postpone my decision to stop responding to you for the purpose of saying that it is obvious that my post (whatever post you are talking about) was not directed at you. I will not attempt to discuss any of your POINTS until you change your mannerisms.

      • GALT

        Not something that I will lose sleep over, since you have never managed to RESPOND
        the actual “points” being made Frank, and which has been clearly demonstrated
        once again. Given your temper and your “inabilities”, I do agree that actually NOT
        RESPONDING is the wisest course……..as even pretending not to respond doesn’t
        produce anything, although you did manage a great deal more restraint…….no doubt
        due to your “initial posturing” regarding “polite” ( but none the less pointless ) discussion.

        • Frank Kahn

          You use words in such a wonderfully deceptive way. Your inability to believe that anyone is capable of intelligent thought beyond yourself is amazing. Your personal attacks on my intelligence when you are unable to dispute my position is proof of your inferiority not superiority.

          Responding to you is pointless, not because of me but, because you dont put forth a salient POINT to discuss. YOU are INCAPABLE of conducting yourself in an ARGUMENT using accepted human discourse. YOU never put forth FACTS to substantiate YOUR ridicule of EVERYTHING related to ECONOMICS. YOU, in fact, make the STUPID claim that ECONOMICS does not exist. You want to ARGUE that point? Are YOU capable of ACCEPTING the REALITY of HUMAN existence?

          IS IT POSSIBLE FOR A WIPLF LIKE YOU TO TAKE PART IN A DISCUSSION.

      • GALT

        Frank Kahn says: December 9, 2012 at 3:28 pm
        You use words in such a wonderfully deceptive way.

        In your opinion! for which you have no evidence in support, but where all manner of “evidence” exists to the contrary.

        What is this “evidence”, you might ask? Or you would ask, if you were not a “willfully ignorant, functional illiterate.”

        Your inability to believe that anyone is capable of intelligent thought beyond yourself is amazing.

        An “intelligent” person, who believed that the purpose of the words being “used” was to BE DECEPTIVE…….would surely ask questions regarding the intended meaning of those words, would they NOT? After all, in order to construct an “intelligent response”, one would need to know what the words meant, as well as their intent within the context in which they were being used.

        If what you are claiming was what you actually believed, and you were “intelligent”, then the “evidence” would show that…….as you would have ASKED for clarification, before even attempting a response.

        Finally, I have consistently, raised the “proposition” that for most here……that the “meaning” of the words, is NOT understood…..which is where you came in……..words such as “unalienable” and the “right to life”, and “to secure” same. To this date, not a single person here, has even attempted an “intelligent analysis”……to construct a “meaning” that is logically reasoned within the “context” for which those words are used……but “everyone KNOWS what they MEAN.”

        You were the “exception” in that you made the attempt which “failed”, although I did not offer a “specific rebuttal” as I am doing here, and since you refused to “repost it”…….this can not be done. Que sera, sera?

        Your personal attacks on my intelligence when you are unable to dispute my position is proof of your inferiority not superiority.

        What position, Frank? I have taken the TIME, once again….to dissect your response in detail………you have attempted to argue the meaning of the words…..”willfully ignorant” and “functional illiterate” and then you say this:

        3.) The fact that I dont feel the need or desire to investigate his assertion about the gold standard, at this time, I am not willfully ignorant, merely choosing to postpone my learning. . This subject will require substantial time, effort and thought to become thoroughly knowledgeable.

        but you also say this:

        This is not a matter of money, never has been and never will.

        and this:

        We have limited resources (money) we need more money to purchase more consumables, so we create more money.

        and this:

        We seem to have a different definition of money. When I say money, I am talking about the artificial paper currency you speak of, and in that vein it is not limited.

        and finally this:

        Well, technically, when you use CREDIT you are (on paper) creating more MONEY. The only value of this money is in its capacity to purchase consumables.

        Now how is any of that “evidence” of your intelligence……for me, it simply demonstrates that you are “willfully ignorant” and a “functional illiterate” who has essentially been “comatose” for your entire time here at PLD.

        What “intelligent person” engages in a “discussion” about economics and finds themselves……having to define what they mean by “money”…….when they are responding to a post which concerns “the gold standard” ( of which they confess ignorance ) and even THIS doesn’t happen……until the third post of a so-called “polite and supposedly INTELLIGENT discussion”??????????????

        Responding to you is pointless, not because of me but, because you dont put forth a salient POINT to discuss.

        Unfortunately, there is NO EVIDENCE to support that. This discussion is one which concerns the subject of the Theory of ECONOMICS and for which there already exists, useful and accepted “definitions” of the “basic components” of this theory.

        MONEY is a “medium of exchange”….within the “theory” it is claimed, that the it appears as a “result” of the “barter” system….and the “difficulty” of determining the “value” of “physical (real) assets.” To put this SIMPLY……..x apples = y oranges. Do you understand this? Do you agree with this?

        The intelligent responses here are? Yes, I understand and agree. Yes, I understand and do not agree. No, I do not understand, tell me more. ( as in THIS is what I do not understand )

        The Theory of Economics consists of the “idea” of “exchange” of assets………and the proper valuation of those assets both in “general” and in “the particular”……….in short, it is an attempt to “quantify” this process……or if you like ” to standardize it”. Do you understand and/or agree? ( same intelligent responses are REQUIRED )

        Of the mechanisms available within the THEORY of ECONOMICS there are three……barter, money and credit. As stated, MONEY is a medium of exchange………which implies that MONEY: a.) has a value in it’s own right. ( intrinsic ) or b.) is ( fiat money) a “medium of exchange” but does NOT have instrinsic value? Do you understand this?
        ADVANCED UNDERSTANDING: If money is b.) how is this different from a “credit” system? and how does The Gold Standard: which is simply MONEY defined as a.) change the THEORY of Economic’s with regard to those aspects of it…….which are currently being discussed here……or anywhere else?

        YOU are INCAPABLE of conducting yourself in an ARGUMENT using accepted human discourse.

        Really? This is not an “argument” of any kind…….you are “ignorant” of all of this………and you believe that somehow……your real time attempts to “learn while doing” should be somehow “politely” received as something “intelligent”………that you are as “equally ignorant” as everyone else here……….simply encourages you to “continue” to be “willfully ignorant”!!!! As you can see……..exposing this for what it is, is not particularly difficult………so if you seek “intelligent” human discourse……you really need to “provide” the INTELLIGENCE for YOUR SIDE of it.

        YOU never put forth FACTS to substantiate YOUR ridicule of EVERYTHING related to ECONOMICS. YOU, in fact, make the STUPID claim that ECONOMICS does not exist.

        First LESSON, for the hundreth time……to avoid providing ongoing and consistent PROOF that you ARE a “FUNCTIONAL ILLITERATE”……is do not rely on your MEMORY……..when stating the position of “others” with whom you claim be attempting to engage in “intelligent” discourse.

        The following is what has actually been said by me.

        The Theory of ECONOMIC’s is INVALID!!!!!! The reasoning for this conclusion is that “there is no empirial connection of the Theory to “reality”…….it is not “empirical”, so it is not a “scientific theory”, and it is not a “discipline”…..because it does NOT WORK! This line of reasoning and the supporting “evidence” can be found in “Economics Unmasked.”

        You want to ARGUE that point?

        Nope……you have no argument……you are a “willfully ignorant, functional illiterate.” Try copy and paste……at least you will be “attempting” to argue……that which was “said”……instead of engaging in the “self deception” that you can “remember” what “WAS SAID”, what the actual “subject is” and “what it is that you are you THINK you are making an argument “for OR against”.

        Are YOU capable of ACCEPTING the REALITY of HUMAN existence?

        I am an e.i.P.L.F…….so your stupid question has been asked and answered, many times.

        IS IT POSSIBLE FOR A WIPLF LIKE YOU TO TAKE PART IN A DISCUSSION.

        With a “willfully ignorant, functional illiterate.”? What “discussion” would you be referring to? Is that a “bit of temper” bubbling up?

        • Joe American

          Look up “bloviator” and you’llsee you photo right next to it.

        • Frank Kahn

          IN RESPONSE TO YOUR MULTIPLE LEVEL ASSAULT ON MY INTELLIGENCE. YOU FAIL IN ALL RESPECTS.

          THE SUBJECT IS NOT WHAT YOU CLAIM.
          MOST ITEMS IN YOUR DIATRIBE WERE NOT TO YOU AND HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH OUR ARGUMENT

          YOU ARE CORRECT IN SAYING THIS IS NOT AN ARGUMENT BECAUSE YOU FAIL TO MEET THE REQUIREMENTS TO ACHIEVE THAT STATUS. AND YOU OBVIOUSLY EITHER DONT KNOW WHAT AN ARGUMENT IS OR REFUSE TO ACKNOWLEDGE IT.

          I WILL NOT ASK SOMEONE AS BEREFT OF INTELLIGENCE TO GIVE A DEFINITION OF WORDS BECAUSE YOU ARE DISPLAYING A WILLFULLY IGNORANT STANCE ON THE CORRECT MEANINGS.

          MONEY IS A STANDARD OF EXCHANGE. CURRENCY IS THE MEANS OF THAT EXCHANGE. WHETHER THE CURRENCY IS REAL OR FIAT MAKES NO DIFFERENCE IN ITS USE.

          YOUR INSANE BOOK CITING THE 5000 YEARS OF WHATEVER IS NOT VALID BECAUSE IT PRESUPPOSES INFORMATION NOT AVAILABLE IN RECORDED HISTORY.

          YOU HAVE ON 5 OCCASSIONS SAID THAT “ECONOMICS DOES NOT EXIST” NOT REFERRING TO THE “THEORY OF ECONOMICS”. AND, BESIDES, YOUR BELIEF IS IN A DIFFERENT “THEORY” OF ECONOMICS PUT FORTH BY CHARLATANS.

          I DO NOT RECOGNIZE YOU AS E.I. (IMAGINARY PLF) I SAID YOU ARE A W.I. (IMAGINARY PLF). AND YOU CLAIMING TO BE A PLF IS NOT PROOF OF ANYTHING REAL IN THIS WORLD BECAUSE IT IS JUST A MADE UP ACRONYM YOU ARE USING.

          YOU ALSO TRIED TO TWIST REALITY AGAINST ME BY SAYING THAT NOT WANTING TO IMMEDIATELY INVESTIGATE YOUR INSANE IDEAS MADE ME WILLFULLY IGNORANT. WELL LITTLE GIRL, YOU ALSO REFUSE TO INVESTIGATE MY LINKS SAYING THAT THEY ARE IRRELEVANT.

          MONEY HAS NO INTRINSIC VALUE, GOLD DOES.
          BARTER PREDATES CIVILIZED GOVERNMENTS SO IT CAME BEFORE MONEY.
          CREDIT CAN ONLY BE SAID TO EXIST BEFORE BARTER IF YOU ACCEPT THE IDEA (NOT SUPPORTED BY DOCUMENTATION) THAT THE PAYMENT OF GOODS OR SERVICES BACK TO THE ORIGINAL SUPPLIER WAS ALLOWED TO BE POSTPONED.
          EVEN THEN THE ACT OF BARTER WAS CARRIED OUT FIRST BEFORE AN AGREEMENT OF CREDIT.

          IN THE TRUE SENSE OF THE TERM MONEY, THERE ARE MANY FORMS BESIDES CURRENCY, THERE WAS SALT, GOLD AND OTHER METALS ALL USED AS MONEY (MEANS OF EXCHANGE OR INTERMEDIARY EXCHANGE OF GOODS AND SERVICES).

          I NEVER HAVE SAID THAT ECONOMICS IS A SCIENCE, I ACCEPT IT AS A WORKABLE THEORY. YOU DISMISS IT AS INVALID BECAUSE YOU CLAIM IT ALWAYS FAILS.

          YOU PUT FORTH THAT THIS IS THE LAST CHANCE TO GO TO ANARCHY IN ECONOMICS TO PROVE THE POINT THAT WE CANT SURVIVE AS A CIVILIZED COMMUNITY USING MONEY AS AN EXCHANGE MEDIUM.

          YES, YOU DID NOT USE THOSE WORDS IN ANY OF YOUR POSTS, HOWEVER, THE STUPIDITY OF YOUR GOD LIKE AUTHORS PUT THAT IDEA FORWARD.

          AND, I AM SORRY THAT YOUR BRAIN IS INCAPABLE OF REMEMBERING FROM ONE DAY TO THE NEXT WHAT YOU ARE TOLD, BUT MINE IS. I CAN REMEMBER ALL YOUR POSTS AND KNOW WHAT STUPIDITY WAS CONTAINED IN THEM.

          I ALSO KNOW THAT YOU EITHER DONT KNOW THE MEANING OF THE TERM FUNCTIONALLY ILLITERATE OR YOU WANT TO MAKE UP A DEFINITION THAT FITS YOUR FANTASY WORLD.

          YOU ARE WILLFULLY IGNORANT, AND I AM USING YOUR DEFINITION AND INTERPRETATION OF FACTS. EVERYONE THAT HAS AN IQ ABOVE MORON IS WILLFULLY IGNORANT. I DONT KNOW WHAT THE POPE HAD FOR BREAKFAST TODAY AND I HAVE NO DESIRE TO FIND OUT. THAT MAKES ME WILLFULLY IGNORANT OF HIS BREAKFAST HABITS.

          AT ONE TIME IN YOUR OBSCENELY WORDY DIATRIBES YOU MENTIONED SOMETHING ABOUT SURVIVAL OF THE FITTEST. YOU SHOULD BE GRATEFUL THAT YOU LIVE IN MODERN TIMES BECAUSE YOU WOULD NOT BE LIVING IF SURVIVAL OF THE FITTEST WAS STILL IN EFFECT NOW.

          ON THE SUBJECT OF OPINIONS, YES, I USE OPINIONS BASED ON FACTS. YOU ALSO USE OPINIONS BASED ON SOMETHING. SO FAR, TO DATE, YOU HAVE FAILED TO PROVIDE ANY SUBSTANTIVE FACTS TO BACK YOUR FANATICAL VIEWS ON ECONOMICS. YOU ASK STUPID QUESTIONS AND NEVER RESPOND TO ANYONE’S REPLIES WITH ANYTHING SHORT OF DISMISSIVE NAME CALLING. AND, THAT IS WHY THIS IS NOT AN ARGUMENT, YOU FAIL TO PROVIDE FACTS, YOU JUST SPOUT INSANE UNSUPPORTED OPINIONS ON A SUBJECT WHICH YOU APPEAR TO HAVE NO REAL UNDERSTANDING OF.

          NOW, YOU WIPLF (WHATEVER MORONIC THING A PLF IS) GO AHEAD AND SPEW YOUR HATE FILLED GARBAGE ABOUT HOW I FAIL TO KEEP ON SUBJECT AND DONT GIVE FACTS. I ONLY SWITCH SUBJECTS TO KEEP UP WITH YOUR AIRHEADED POSTS. I WILL ONLY GIVE YOU FACTS WHEN YOU ATTEMPT TO GIVE VERIFIABLE FACTS.

          YOUR LAST POST TO ME WAS FILLED WITH STUPIDITY AND RAMBLING. YOU FAILED TO MAKE A SALIENT POINT AND RAMBLED ON WITHOUT HOLDING TO ANY DISCERNIBLE SUBJECT OTHER THAN TO ATTEMPT TO PROVE YOUR IMAGINARY SUPERIORITY TO ME.

          YOU WANT ME TO CUT AND PASTE TO PROVE YOUR ERRORS? YOU WANT TO SEE YOUR STUPIDITY REPEATED? FINE, BELOW YOU WILL FIND A CUT AND PASTE EXAMPLE OF YOUR TRUE STUPIDITY.

          Frank Kahn says: December 9, 2012 at 3:28 pm
          You use words in such a wonderfully deceptive way.

          In your opinion! for which you have no evidence in support, but where all manner of “evidence” exists to the contrary.

          What is this “evidence”, you might ask? Or you would ask, if you were not a “willfully ignorant, functional illiterate.”

          Your inability to believe that anyone is capable of intelligent thought beyond yourself is amazing.

          An “intelligent” person, who believed that the purpose of the words being “used” was to BE DECEPTIVE…….would surely ask questions regarding the intended meaning of those words, would they NOT? After all, in order to construct an “intelligent response”, one would need to know what the words meant, as well as their intent within the context in which they were being used.

          If what you are claiming was what you actually believed, and you were “intelligent”, then the “evidence” would show that…….as you would have ASKED for clarification, before even attempting a response.

          Finally, I have consistently, raised the “proposition” that for most here……that the “meaning” of the words, is NOT understood…..which is where you came in……..words such as “unalienable” and the “right to life”, and “to secure” same. To this date, not a single person here, has even attempted an “intelligent analysis”……to construct a “meaning” that is logically reasoned within the “context” for which those words are used……but “everyone KNOWS what they MEAN.”

          You were the “exception” in that you made the attempt which “failed”, although I did not offer a “specific rebuttal” as I am doing here, and since you refused to “repost it”…….this can not be done. Que sera, sera?

          Your personal attacks on my intelligence when you are unable to dispute my position is proof of your inferiority not superiority.

          What position, Frank? I have taken the TIME, once again….to dissect your response in detail………you have attempted to argue the meaning of the words…..”willfully ignorant” and “functional illiterate” and then you say this:

          3.) The fact that I dont feel the need or desire to investigate his assertion about the gold standard, at this time, I am not willfully ignorant, merely choosing to postpone my learning. . This subject will require substantial time, effort and thought to become thoroughly knowledgeable.

          but you also say this:

          This is not a matter of money, never has been and never will.

          and this:

          We have limited resources (money) we need more money to purchase more consumables, so we create more money.

          and this:

          We seem to have a different definition of money. When I say money, I am talking about the artificial paper currency you speak of, and in that vein it is not limited.

          and finally this:

          Well, technically, when you use CREDIT you are (on paper) creating more MONEY. The only value of this money is in its capacity to purchase consumables.

          Now how is any of that “evidence” of your intelligence……for me, it simply demonstrates that you are “willfully ignorant” and a “functional illiterate” who has essentially been “comatose” for your entire time here at PLD.

          What “intelligent person” engages in a “discussion” about economics and finds themselves……having to define what they mean by “money”…….when they are responding to a post which concerns “the gold standard” ( of which they confess ignorance ) and even THIS doesn’t happen……until the third post of a so-called “polite and supposedly INTELLIGENT discussion”??????????????

          Responding to you is pointless, not because of me but, because you dont put forth a salient POINT to discuss.

          Unfortunately, there is NO EVIDENCE to support that. This discussion is one which concerns the subject of the Theory of ECONOMICS and for which there already exists, useful and accepted “definitions” of the “basic components” of this theory.

          MONEY is a “medium of exchange”….within the “theory” it is claimed, that the it appears as a “result” of the “barter” system….and the “difficulty” of determining the “value” of “physical (real) assets.” To put this SIMPLY……..x apples = y oranges. Do you understand this? Do you agree with this?

          The intelligent responses here are? Yes, I understand and agree. Yes, I understand and do not agree. No, I do not understand, tell me more. ( as in THIS is what I do not understand )

          The Theory of Economics consists of the “idea” of “exchange” of assets………and the proper valuation of those assets both in “general” and in “the particular”……….in short, it is an attempt to “quantify” this process……or if you like ” to standardize it”. Do you understand and/or agree? ( same intelligent responses are REQUIRED )

          Of the mechanisms available within the THEORY of ECONOMICS there are three……barter, money and credit. As stated, MONEY is a medium of exchange………which implies that MONEY: a.) has a value in it’s own right. ( intrinsic ) or b.) is ( fiat money) a “medium of exchange” but does NOT have instrinsic value? Do you understand this?
          ADVANCED UNDERSTANDING: If money is b.) how is this different from a “credit” system? and how does The Gold Standard: which is simply MONEY defined as a.) change the THEORY of Economic’s with regard to those aspects of it…….which are currently being discussed here……or anywhere else?

          YOU are INCAPABLE of conducting yourself in an ARGUMENT using accepted human discourse.

          Really? This is not an “argument” of any kind…….you are “ignorant” of all of this………and you believe that somehow……your real time attempts to “learn while doing” should be somehow “politely” received as something “intelligent”………that you are as “equally ignorant” as everyone else here……….simply encourages you to “continue” to be “willfully ignorant”!!!! As you can see……..exposing this for what it is, is not particularly difficult………so if you seek “intelligent” human discourse……you really need to “provide” the INTELLIGENCE for YOUR SIDE of it.

          YOU never put forth FACTS to substantiate YOUR ridicule of EVERYTHING related to ECONOMICS. YOU, in fact, make the STUPID claim that ECONOMICS does not exist.

          First LESSON, for the hundreth time……to avoid providing ongoing and consistent PROOF that you ARE a “FUNCTIONAL ILLITERATE”……is do not rely on your MEMORY……..when stating the position of “others” with whom you claim be attempting to engage in “intelligent” discourse.

          The following is what has actually been said by me.

          The Theory of ECONOMIC’s is INVALID!!!!!! The reasoning for this conclusion is that “there is no empirial connection of the Theory to “reality”…….it is not “empirical”, so it is not a “scientific theory”, and it is not a “discipline”…..because it does NOT WORK! This line of reasoning and the supporting “evidence” can be found in “Economics Unmasked.”

          You want to ARGUE that point?

          Nope……you have no argument……you are a “willfully ignorant, functional illiterate.” Try copy and paste……at least you will be “attempting” to argue……that which was “said”……instead of engaging in the “self deception” that you can “remember” what “WAS SAID”, what the actual “subject is” and “what it is that you are you THINK you are making an argument “for OR against”.

          Are YOU capable of ACCEPTING the REALITY of HUMAN existence?

          I am an e.i.P.L.F…….so your stupid question has been asked and answered, many times.

          MY QUESTION HAS NEVER BEEN ANSWERED BY YOU AND SAYING YOUR ARE SOME IMAGINARY BEING CALLED A P.L.F IS NOT AN ANSWER OR PROOF OF ANYTHING.

          IS IT POSSIBLE FOR A WIPLF LIKE YOU TO TAKE PART IN A DISCUSSION.

          With a “willfully ignorant, functional illiterate.”? What “discussion” would you be referring to? Is that a “bit of temper” bubbling up?

          • Mr.Ben

            Frank, you left me hanging on my last comment to you! Since you and Galt seem to be continuing a “conversation” on economics, and I enjoy this subject, I would like to re-join in, skipping the name calling parts, if possible.

            First, the book that Galt brought into our conversation, “Debt, the First 5000 Years”, is worth a read. I too was a bit surprised at the information within the book. It’s not a common book of economics where the first chapter uses anthropology to question “recorded history”. If I wasn’t such a sucker for new ideas that are presented well, I too might have called it an “insane book”. However, after looking into David Graeber’s life, I am quite sold. A highly educated anthropologist (ok), not re-hired to teach at Yale because of his political views (good), and supported by 4500 other renowned anthropologists, students, and activists (great!). Obviously, this man has something to teach us, and with this kind of support, I’m game.

            Galt does often say, “economics does not exist”, but my guess is that he is referring to the history of the “myth of barter”. Can we really understand a subject if it’s foundation has been proven to be made of fairy tales? Graebers arguments and information are solid (as far as Internet source checking can go) and I am not yet able to see the implications on all economic theories in light of this new information. One thing is certain, “one MUST pay ones debt” is a modern saying. In the first few chapters of this book, Graeber proves that this has not been the case for most of recorded history. After the kings/pharaohs/heads-of-states realized that debt was the cause of ancient economic collapses, it became common practice to cancel all debt, sometimes, on a regular cycle. The implications of this simple idea should get your brain going. Although, as common as this was 600 years ago, modern examples of “debt forgiveness” are rare. The only example that I could think of was the situation in Iceland, in 2008. Among the many (awesome) decisions made by their leaders, the one that is relevant to our conversation was reported by Bloomberg.

            “To homeowners with negative equity, the country offered write-offs that would wipe out debt above 110 percent of the property value. The government also provided means-tested subsidies to reduce mortgage-interest expense. In June 2010, the nation’s Supreme Court gave debtors another break: Bank loans that were indexed to foreign currencies were declared illegal. Because the Icelandic krona plunged 80 percent during the crisis, the cost of repaying foreign debt more than doubled. The ruling let consumers repay the banks as if the loans were in krona”.

            A Modern Day Debt Forgiveness. If you have been following Iceland these last 4 years, than you know how well they’re doing. Graeber, and the rest of his “charlatans”, just might have discovered the only answer to our world’s current “debt crisis”, through anthropology no less!

            This is the direction my less-than-a-week conversation with Galt has taken me. There are many other details that make up my own “theory of economics”, that will surely disagree with Galts, and yours. But, to be fair Frank, you did enter this conversation with an admitted lack of pre-thought/knowledge on the subject of economics. You seem to be interested in learning, however, your last few comments were on the ego-protection side. Galt called me out, same as you, and after I reread my comments, I saw he was in the right. Nothing wrong with a humble attitude! If you continue to rant, even my naturally polite personality will buckle towards Galts unforgiving neutrality.

          • Frank Kahn

            I will not agree with your assessment of my knowledge and thought concerning economics. I have studied it in college and give a great deal of thought to it.

            If you had seen and paid attention to my argument with him, it has nothing to do with economics. This is an extremely recent addition to his diatribe. My argument is with his abuse of the english language. He did say many times that economics does not exist, and yet in his last two or three posts he denies it. He is a consummate liar. He is also bereft of social acumen. He is insulting and fails to understand the true meanings of the words he uses. He assumes that he has some higher calling and knowledge which is not true. I was not defending my ego, I was pointing out how over inflated his is.

            I also take exception to your assessment about the foundation of the theory of economics. It does not presuppose nor depend on ancient history of barter to qualify its premise. Barter is not intrinsic in its premise.

            Anthropology, in this case the study of ancient ruins, cannot be held as evidential proof, only circumstantial evidence. He also quotes, or makes mention of the words sin and forgiveness in the Bible as proof that debt was used then. This is an absurd assumption without supporting evidence as to the connections. A persons accolades as an anthropologist in no way translates to any form of expertise in economic theory. I will point out a grave error in one of your posts to him. You site the name of the book The first 5,000 years. Well in your post you start quoting dates starting with 5,000 BC and going up till several centuries AD. Think maybe you might be mistaken in your math? Anthropological studies cannot transcend time sufficiently to disallow the probability of barter being used prior to credit and or money.

            And, in case you have not caught on to him, he will assume that this post is a response to him not you.

            Now, on a more relaxed and sensible portion of your post, I agree that the forgiveness of debt can and should be used in a rational way to help stimulate a failing economy. Since, despite your assessment that, I dont give it a lot of thought, it might surprise you to know that I understand the concept of the benefits inherent in such a move. If you cancel a major portion of the peoples debt, they will obviously have more discretionary cash for making purchases. This increase in purchases will help create the need for more products and result in more job creation. However, that still requires that you have a capitalistic economic system in place. This is another part of his inane assertions, he says that capitalism does not work because it too is invalid. Or to put it his way, capitalism is invalid because it does not work.

            So, to recap, my argument with him is due to his ignorance of the English language. His constant belittling of everyone that does not agree with his mandate that he is right about everything. His use of the words willfully ignorant as a derogatory term, and his misuse of the phrase functionally illiterate when we attempt to engage him in normal civil dialogue. He, also, has never answered a single question put to him in any manner that would be construed as an answer, only derisive remarks about how we are to stupid to understand reality. In your first post to him after reading the first 20% of that book, his response was a non answer to your questions. Now, maybe you think that type of behavior is okay, I dont, and I will give no credence to anything he says till he decides he can act like a civilized human being.

      • GALT

        There is the Frank, I know……a full blown temper tantrum with “all the fixin’s”. When you got nothin……YELL, then the you have a very LOUD……..NOTHING!!!!!

        Frank Kahn says:
        December 11, 2012 at 12:03 am

        IN RESPONSE TO YOUR MULTIPLE LEVEL ASSAULT ON MY INTELLIGENCE. YOU FAIL IN ALL RESPECTS.

        What intelligence? There is no, nor has there been any “evidence” of your “intelligence”. Plenty of evidence for childish temper tantrums, though……..in spite of being “warned”?

        THE SUBJECT IS NOT WHAT YOU CLAIM.

        Well, my response was made in conjunction to the “topic” raised by Mr. Livingston which addresses “hyperinflation” and the rather common assertion ( for P.L.D. ) that the GOLD STANDARD is the solution to our present problems and “required” element for the “survival” in the “impending collapse”……which is bound to happen any “decade” now…..which would fall under the general subject heading of “economic theory”. ( as presented by the hard money crowd of the austrian school of economics. ) Why, what do you think the subject was, and/or is? (and) Why were you responding to my post……….if you do NOT KNOW, what the subject IS?

        MOST ITEMS IN YOUR DIATRIBE WERE NOT TO YOU AND HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH OUR ARGUMENT

        WE are not having “an argument”! ( that “you” have an “argument with ME”, is not the same thing……..and trying to demonstrate your claim to “intelligence”…..while in the midst of a tantrum, as you can see, is NOT very intelligent.)

        YOU ARE CORRECT IN SAYING THIS IS NOT AN ARGUMENT BECAUSE YOU FAIL TO MEET THE REQUIREMENTS TO ACHIEVE THAT STATUS.

        While that is NOT the reason why, I glad to see you agree.

        AND YOU OBVIOUSLY EITHER DONT KNOW WHAT AN ARGUMENT IS OR REFUSE TO ACKNOWLEDGE IT.

        So, sorting through that bit of “tantrum”. 1.) We are not having an argument. 2.) We are having an argument? 3.) and this is all because, I do not know that we are not having an argument, while having an argument? You are just “way too intelligent” for me, Frank……..so much so, that you sound like DavidH…….things are “only true” when you say them……..( and like him, you are completely clueless, regarding what you have said.)

        I WILL NOT ASK SOMEONE AS BEREFT OF INTELLIGENCE TO GIVE A DEFINITION OF WORDS BECAUSE YOU ARE DISPLAYING A WILLFULLY IGNORANT STANCE ON THE CORRECT MEANINGS.

        Except that……my use of words is:

        “You use words in such a wonderfully deceptive way.”

        for the purpose of “deception”……so an “intelligent person”, would see this as a “trap”……..and take the required pre-cautions, if they actually “believed that”……..(of course, if you have no clue what you are saying, that you could actually comprehend what anyone else was saying, would also seem to follow? )

        MONEY IS A STANDARD OF EXCHANGE.

        The common usage is “medium of exchange”.

        CURRENCY IS THE MEANS OF THAT EXCHANGE.

        It is a “means” ( as in one of ) of exchange.

        WHETHER THE CURRENCY IS REAL OR FIAT MAKES NO DIFFERENCE IN ITS USE.

        Actually, if you know where you are and what the “subject” is, it DOES MATTER………if it didn’t matter, why did you have to define what you meant by money when talking with Mr. Ben, and why are you making the distinction between “real and fiat” now? Oh, I forgot, things are only “true” when YOU SAY THEM…….and the words only have the meaning YOU assign them…….and only at the “exact moment” that you use them………which probably explains why, so many of the “intelligent things” that are said here……are just WAY OVER MY HEAD!!!!!

        YOUR INSANE BOOK CITING THE 5000 YEARS OF WHATEVER IS NOT VALID BECAUSE IT PRESUPPOSES INFORMATION NOT AVAILABLE IN RECORDED HISTORY.

        So if I am comprehending your “intelligence” here, what YOUare saying is that:

        Debt:The First 5000 Years

        Winner of the Bateson Book Prize awarded by the Society for Cultural Anthropology
        Before there was money, there was debt

        Every economics textbook says the same thing: Money was invented to replace onerous and complicated barter systems—to relieve ancient people from having to haul their goods to market. The problem with this version of history? There’s not a shred of evidence to support it.

        Here anthropologist David Graeber presents a stunning reversal of conventional wisdom. He shows that for more than 5,000 years, since the beginnings of the first agrarian empires, humans have used elaborate credit systems to buy and sell goods—that is, long before the invention of coins or cash. It is in this era, Graeber argues, that we also first encounter a society divided into debtors and creditors.

        Graeber shows that arguments about debt and debt forgiveness have been at the center of political debates from Italy to China, as well as sparking innumerable insurrections. He also brilliantly demonstrates that the language of the ancient works of law and religion (words like “guilt,” “sin,” and “redemption”) derive in large part from ancient debates about debt, and shape even our most basic ideas of right and wrong. We are still fighting these battles today without knowing it.

        Debt: The First 5,000 Years is a fascinating chronicle of this little known history—as well as how it has defined human history, and what it means for the credit crisis of the present day and the future of our economy.

        the “evidence” of history……..is inferior to “recorded history”? Or your understanding of “recorded history”? Or the “imagination” of those who “recorded history”? Damn, I do wish I was as an intelligent as you……. I sure hope you don’t mind me asking these questions?

        YOU HAVE ON 5 OCCASSIONS SAID THAT “ECONOMICS DOES NOT EXIST” NOT REFERRING TO THE “THEORY OF ECONOMICS”.

        Five times? I’d surely like to see one……especially in the “context” where it exists? ( evidence, Frank? Your memory skills are a bit suspect also…………

        AND, BESIDES, YOUR BELIEF IS IN A DIFFERENT “THEORY” OF ECONOMICS PUT FORTH BY CHARLATANS.

        Which Theory by which charlatans? ( evidence, Frank? )

        I DO NOT RECOGNIZE YOU AS E.I. (IMAGINARY PLF) I SAID YOU ARE A W.I. (IMAGINARY PLF). AND YOU CLAIMING TO BE A PLF IS NOT PROOF OF ANYTHING REAL IN THIS WORLD BECAUSE IT IS JUST A MADE UP ACRONYM YOU ARE USING.

        Well, it is an acronym and it is “intellectual property”, so YES it is “original to me”……and you were given “clues” as to whether or not YOU ( or anyone else ) “might be a P.L.F.”

        The IDEA, (mine) was that if YOU (or anyone else ) could answering YES to “all the clues” then (ergo) “you MIGHT be a P.L.F.” If You answered no to any of them, then you were an “A.L.F.

        Unfortunately, I had not anticipated someone of “your intelligence” seeing the obvious “trap” here……YOU decide to “argue” with the “clues” …….( which for us stupid people means no ) and for what purpose, Frank? You still don’t know what P.L.F. stands for……or A.L.F.? How is it possible to “argue” with “clues” which determine whether you are or are not, something, whose meaning you are “ignorant” of? Still you KNOW what w.i. stands for….which is progress of a kind, although NOW…….you are clearly a w.i.f.i. A.L.F…..and A.L.F. is not all that bad to begin with…..since it is quite common.

        YOU ALSO TRIED TO TWIST REALITY AGAINST ME BY SAYING THAT NOT WANTING TO IMMEDIATELY INVESTIGATE YOUR INSANE IDEAS MADE ME WILLFULLY IGNORANT. WELL LITTLE GIRL, YOU ALSO REFUSE TO INVESTIGATE MY LINKS SAYING THAT THEY ARE IRRELEVANT.

        What links, Frank? For what subject, Frank? For what argument, Frank? Evidence, Frank?

        MONEY HAS NO INTRINSIC VALUE, GOLD DOES.

        Right, in your world, “money is a standard”, “currency is a means”, and there is “real” and “fiat” money……..course now, I need to know what currency is…………and I would still be “confused”……..so, unless YOU HAVE WRITTEN A BOOK…….do you have a “link”, that uses these words as you use them………and makes any sense, to anyone else but YOU?

        BARTER PREDATES CIVILIZED GOVERNMENTS SO IT CAME BEFORE MONEY.

        according to the BOOK of FRANK, volume one?

        CREDIT CAN ONLY BE SAID TO EXIST BEFORE BARTER IF YOU ACCEPT THE IDEA (NOT SUPPORTED BY DOCUMENTATION) THAT THE PAYMENT OF GOODS OR SERVICES BACK TO THE ORIGINAL SUPPLIER WAS ALLOWED TO BE POSTPONED.

        There is “documentation”, Frank….it’s called “evidence” and it is in the book that was recommended to you…….even though you are a w.i.f.i. A.L.F.

        EVEN THEN THE ACT OF BARTER WAS CARRIED OUT FIRST BEFORE AN AGREEMENT OF CREDIT.

        according to the BOOK of FRANK, volume one?

        IN THE TRUE SENSE OF THE TERM MONEY, THERE ARE MANY FORMS BESIDES CURRENCY, THERE WAS SALT, GOLD AND OTHER METALS ALL USED AS MONEY (MEANS OF EXCHANGE OR INTERMEDIARY EXCHANGE OF GOODS AND SERVICES).

        I agree Frank, things are only “true” when YOU say THEM, even when you a “contradicting, yourself”……

        MONEY HAS NO INTRINSIC VALUE, GOLD DOES.

        while desperately trying to avoid the “commonly used term”, “medium of exchange”……….

        I NEVER HAVE SAID THAT ECONOMICS IS A SCIENCE, I ACCEPT IT AS A WORKABLE THEORY. YOU DISMISS IT AS INVALID BECAUSE YOU CLAIM IT ALWAYS FAILS.

        It is “invalid” because it is not connected to “reality” and the evidence is that it has failed and continues to fail……..you have been directed to the sources of the “evidence” for this, as well as the reasoning………I am simply the “messenger”……..you are the “willfully ignorant, functional illiterate”………THIS IS NOT MY PROBLEM…….

        YOU PUT FORTH THAT THIS IS THE LAST CHANCE TO GO TO ANARCHY IN ECONOMICS TO PROVE THE POINT THAT WE CANT SURVIVE AS A CIVILIZED COMMUNITY USING MONEY AS AN EXCHANGE MEDIUM.

        Evidence, Frank? I am not responsible for the product of your w.i.f.i. imagined fantasies.

        YES, YOU DID NOT USE THOSE WORDS IN ANY OF YOUR POSTS, HOWEVER, THE STUPIDITY OF YOUR GOD LIKE AUTHORS PUT THAT IDEA FORWARD.

        How would you know…….you haven’t read them?And you’re right I didn’t use those words…….but as a w.i.f.i. it’s pretty clear that “words” have no meaning, anyway…….except when you use them, and then you “forget” how you used them…….which makes any attempt to discuss anything ( with any w.i.f.i. ) pointless….and why WE are not having an “argument”.

        AND, I AM SORRY THAT YOUR BRAIN IS INCAPABLE OF REMEMBERING FROM ONE DAY TO THE NEXT WHAT YOU ARE TOLD, BUT MINE IS. I CAN REMEMBER ALL YOUR POSTS AND KNOW WHAT STUPIDITY WAS CONTAINED IN THEM.

        Yes, Frank, all of that is quite clearly demonstrated, as in “It’s de ja vu, all over again.”

        ALSO KNOW THAT YOU EITHER DONT KNOW THE MEANING OF THE TERM FUNCTIONALLY ILLITERATE OR YOU WANT TO MAKE UP A DEFINITION THAT FITS YOUR FANTASY WORLD.

        Well thank you for making that “clear”…….

        YOU ARE WILLFULLY IGNORANT, AND I AM USING YOUR DEFINITION AND INTERPRETATION OF FACTS. EVERYONE THAT HAS AN IQ ABOVE MORON IS WILLFULLY IGNORANT. I DONT KNOW WHAT THE POPE HAD FOR BREAKFAST TODAY AND I HAVE NO DESIRE TO FIND OUT. THAT MAKES ME WILLFULLY IGNORANT OF HIS BREAKFAST HABITS.

        Well, Frank, when you put it that way, I have to agree that you are “a willfully ignorant, functional illiterate” again…..and I envy you. because that idiot pope insists on calling me everyday, to tell me what he had for breakfast……….of course, this is better than when the “shrub” used to call…….but I digress…..please continue……

        AT ONE TIME IN YOUR OBSCENELY WORDY DIATRIBES YOU MENTIONED SOMETHING ABOUT SURVIVAL OF THE FITTEST. YOU SHOULD BE GRATEFUL THAT YOU LIVE IN MODERN TIMES BECAUSE YOU WOULD NOT BE LIVING IF SURVIVAL OF THE FITTEST WAS STILL IN EFFECT NOW.

        I am a e.i.P.L.F…………..nuff said. Sucks when you don’t know what the words mean, huh?

        ON THE SUBJECT OF OPINIONS, YES, I USE OPINIONS BASED ON FACTS. YOU ALSO USE OPINIONS BASED ON SOMETHING. SO FAR, TO DATE, YOU HAVE FAILED TO PROVIDE ANY SUBSTANTIVE FACTS TO BACK YOUR FANATICAL VIEWS ON ECONOMICS. YOU ASK STUPID QUESTIONS AND NEVER RESPOND TO ANYONE’S REPLIES WITH ANYTHING SHORT OF DISMISSIVE NAME CALLING. AND, THAT IS WHY THIS IS NOT AN ARGUMENT, YOU FAIL TO PROVIDE FACTS, YOU JUST SPOUT INSANE UNSUPPORTED OPINIONS ON A SUBJECT WHICH YOU APPEAR TO HAVE NO REAL UNDERSTANDING OF.

        Well, Frank….being faced with such overwhelming and insistent “intelligence” by so many here……I have found it much more useful to simply “identify it” and move on………and I only do this, when they insist on “being” a w.i.f.i. with me……..although usually, they don’t use so many words to “say nothing”……….

        NOW, YOU WIPLF (WHATEVER MORONIC THING A PLF IS) GO AHEAD AND SPEW YOUR HATE FILLED GARBAGE ABOUT HOW I FAIL TO KEEP ON SUBJECT AND DONT GIVE FACTS. I ONLY SWITCH SUBJECTS TO KEEP UP WITH YOUR AIRHEADED POSTS. I WILL ONLY GIVE YOU FACTS WHEN YOU ATTEMPT TO GIVE VERIFIABLE FACTS.

        Sucks when you don’t know what the words mean……..and not responding is the wisest course………w.i.f.i. is tragic……….but it can be both treated and cured……..the first step is………acceptance?

        YOUR LAST POST TO ME WAS FILLED WITH STUPIDITY AND RAMBLING. YOU FAILED TO MAKE A SALIENT POINT AND RAMBLED ON WITHOUT HOLDING TO ANY DISCERNIBLE SUBJECT OTHER THAN TO ATTEMPT TO PROVE YOUR IMAGINARY SUPERIORITY TO ME.

        Yes, I see what you mean……..

        YOU WANT ME TO CUT AND PASTE TO PROVE YOUR ERRORS? YOU WANT TO SEE YOUR STUPIDITY REPEATED? FINE, BELOW YOU WILL FIND A CUT AND PASTE EXAMPLE OF YOUR TRUE STUPIDITY.

        Actually, it is “copy and paste”…….and I already did that……for that post…….far more easy to follow when you know HOW?????

        Didn’t you make some claim to being a programmer? How is it possible, that you don’t know the simple html commands that will work here? or can’t find them? Not that it would make a difference…

        But here is a quick lesson……
        b = bold
        i = italic
        To use them, you put them between this with no spaces…..
        to turn it on and turn it off

        so you can do Why isFranksuch a willfullyignorant,functionalILLITERATE!!!!!!!!

        I am so glad we have had this time together, again……Frank…..learn to stay away…..or start USING that intelligence…..you claim to have….bye now.

        • Frank Kahn

          First of all I can write html xml and many other types of markup language derivatives. I usually prefer to use .NET programming language as it is faster and more secure. I am also proficient in the use of CSS (cascading style sheets).

          bold, italics or anything else is not an issue here.

          And definitions of words are only an issue because you fail to identify YOUR definition.

          You site an anthropologist as an expert in economics.

          Physical evidence is interpreted (circumstantial) not factual.

          Assuming that the Bible is talking about debt when It uses the word sin is beyond ignorant and below functional illiteracy.

          I never contradict myself, and you failed to provide any evidence of such in your post.

          PLF cannot be your intellectual property because you dont have intellect to qualify for it.
          PLF has no meaning because it is only in your head.
          You pick and choose the definition you want to apply to an Agnostic Life Form.
          And, refusing to agree with your nonsense is not an indication of which imaginary designation one fits ALF or PLF, it just means we dont accept your inane posturing.

          You are willfully ignorant of reality.

          Economics as a theory is valid and you cannot prove with facts that capitalism is the cause of the failure of governments.

          The difference between REAL money and FIAT money is the idea of it being backed by something that has intrinsic value. Neither type has any intrinsic value of its own.

          Nit picking the difference in the words standard of exchange and medium of exchange is bereft of intellectual consideration. The “medium” of exchange by definition will create a “standard” of exchange.

          You want to argue definitions? I will accept any factual proof that I have used words incorrectly. I will not accept your puny attempts at claiming they mean something different unless you can show EVIDENCE of an accepted definition.

          Your use of the term functionally illiterate is wrong, period. I am of course assuming that you use the term in the manner accepted by 100% of every other intelligent human.

          Adj. 1. functionally illiterate – having reading and writing skills insufficient for ordinary practical needs

          It is too late at night to go find all your posts to CUT and PASTE them here now but I will do it tomorrow.

          I use that term correctly, It is fine if you want to copy and paste, but I can cut and paste if I feel like it. The difference is that copy and paste leaves the original and cut and paste removes the original.

      • GALT

        Frank that would be “angle brackets”…….. which for some reason, didn’t seem to
        take……in the above post…….and if angle brackets is unfamiliar……

        start with the “is less than” sign…end with the is “greater than sign

        with a forward slash before the letter to turn it off……..no spaces.

    • TIME

      Dear JTG,

      As soon as the trillons of dollars come home in late December – January 13 ~ as well all the Printing plates from all over the world – I agree with you 100% ~ its going to take football fields full of cash to buy a pack of twinkies,

      Oh I forgot they don’t make them here in the US anylonger! Oh well. ;-)

      Peace and Love ne with you all, Merry Christmas

    • KG

      What happened in Weimar Germany will never happen here. In those days, cash represented a “physical” object. You had to have the “real” thing to represent your wealth. However, the money that’s actually printed in America is to replace old bills already in circulation. And the “wealth” we have is actually represented by “credits” or numbers, not “physical” dollars. So, if the money supply is overheated, then all you need to do is to “manipulate” the “numbers”. And Ben does that with a computer.

      So all you guys who are “scaring” people about “whell-barrows of cash” need to THINK.

      • JC

        Except that the “credits” are actually debits. Every dollar printed comes with an interest rate to be paid back to the Central, Foreign Bankers by the taxpayers…in perpetuity. They are “debt notes” not credits. Abolish the Federal Reserve.

      • Marty S.

        KG is it wise to say never can happen here? They are just now beginning to warm up the printing presses. The real debasement has not even begun yet. Oh there will be so much monopoly money to be had for all and it will be grand.

      • GALT

        They still don’t get that part yet………and there will be less available cash in the near future………so you might want to consider going SHORT on “wheel barrow” futures?

        • Joe America

          Pre-WWII Germans never believed that bad things would come their way, either. Anyone that prefices anything by saying the word “never” is out of touch with reality, and Murphy’s Law.

  • steve

    acttually, it’s the great tribulation you should be more concerned with than hyper inflation. read about it in the book of mathew. you are not only going to loose everything you have but the government will be destroyed along with any one who sides with then. stay tuned boys and girls. it’s sooner trhan you think. look for a false sense of peace and security and than the government with destroy religion. revelation 18

    • Leaving South Carolina

      This is coming but it may be a lot longer that most realize, certainly not until after WWIII ends (the fight between Shites and Sunni’s that has been going on for more than 1,300 years will soon engulf the world – more than it has already). What is important to remember is that God gave both a blessing AND A CURSE, in the book of Genesis, when He said that he would bless those who blessed His people Israel and CURSE THOSE WHO CURSED ISRAEL. It also says in another place, Revelation I think, that the whole world will turn against Israel. Thus said it is important that we don’t turn our back on the only true Democracy in the Middle East (Islam being totally opposed to what we think of as Democracy). In the recent UN vote that elevated the terrorists who have been sending thousands of Iranian rockets into Israel only 9 nations voted against them being so honored and it was only when Israel decided to fire back that the media and Islamist UN suddenly decided that the ‘evil Israel’ must be punished. 3,000,000 Americans a year have been getting out of the United States but I don’t think it will do them much good in the long run because eventually what is fast approaching will affect the whole world.

      In any even, on Saturday the 19th of November of the year 2011, I was praying and clearly heard “My hand of judgement will stretch forth and all will feel it, some much more than others. Fear not!” Now it has been my experience and the Bible clearly indicates that God generally gives His people plenty of warning about what is coming, time enough for them to do something about it, get their house in order, their lives, their finances, or get out of town (in the case of those who have been leaving the country). I can tell you this, food and fuel are going to nearly triple in price, and for that you would do well to prepare. Those who don’t have a personal relationship with God are going to have a
      very hard time making it through what is coming, but I don’t have to tell you that.

      • steve

        israel in the bible is another name for god’s heavenly kingdom not literal israel as we know it. since there has been only one response to my statement , i have to assume that most of the commentors on this page either don’t read the bible or don’t understand it or don’t believe it’s teachings or just don’t care. they must still think man has the answers.

      • NewWorldOrder

        If you want to quote the Bible,why do you leave out The Daughter of Babylon? Makes no sense. Bible states to Gods people to leave the Daughter before it is destroyed for its sins. The Daughter of Babylon is described repeatedly, as the New country between the great mountains and 3 oceans with great lakes and mighty rivers. Its America that is destroyed and left desolate forever.

    • Marty S.

      The Lord said only his Father in heaven knows the day and the hour but He also said to pay attention to the shoots of the fig tree for when they turn green, summer is soon to follow. In all seriousness, much of what we are seeing and experiencing are but signs of things to come so we must prepare as if it all depends on us but pray as if it all depend on God.

  • Don the britton

    We have a means of stopping this mass suicide, it is called the debt ceiling. Every congressman who votes for increasing the debt ceiling should be tried for treason and sent to Gitmo.

    • Hedgehog

      Why send them to Gitmo? I hear they are going to close it down and move the prisoners to mainland prisons. If they are found guilty of treason, hang them! Reduce (the number of politicians), Re-use (the rope, for the next one), Recycle (the dead meat as fertilizer).

    • http://tlgeer.wordpress.com tlgeer

      Don, legally and Constituionally this company does not have the right to not pay what we owe. Period. I’ve posted this before. Many times before. With a link for all to see.

      http://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/294/330/

      Make sure that you read points 5-10. They make it VERY CLEAR that Congress does not have the right to not meet our obligations.

    • steve

      so i guess you have been in debt for 16 trillion and had no problem paying the money back

  • Larry S

    Off the fiscal cliff or not by Jan 2014 ….. when the middle class hits the wall of Affordable Healthcare and what it is going to cost them.

  • Hedgehog

    Thanks bob! Now I get it. Taxes have nothing to do with revenue. Taxes are a weapon to be used by the government to foment class hatred and a smokescreen to cover up its war against the people it is supposed to protect!

    • Texas Ride

      The purpose of taxation is only to control the people.

      When the government prints its own money there is no debt (according to the Federal Reserve Banks we own them more debt than we owe China..much more. No one talks about the debt owed to the FR.)

      • Steve

        Any idea what happens if we refuse to pay the fed? Put them in bankruptcy? This would probably cause a chain reaction through all the big banks. Start again with gold/silver coinage.

        • Motov

          The “Federal Reserve” is a group of rip-off artists, that can be “paid back” by imposing fines for their “above the law” attitudes, Send the IRS in for a full audit. And our “debt” will vanish when they uncover all the crimes they committed.

      • Marty S.

        It only works as long as the rest of the world goes along with the idea of the U.S. dollar as the reserve currency. No longer reserve? No longer need for the Federal Reserve from a monetary perspective that is.

  • Warrior

    Did they ever get to the “bottom” of what happened in Bengazai or with “fast & furious”? What’s that, not yet you say? Well, it’s probably better to get all the facts straight before “they” report. Our gubmint is a joke however I don’t see anyone laughing. Now get back in line!

    • eddie47d

      Neither of your subjects were a part of the topic but I’m not surprised. Two men were convicted last week of gun running in Fast and Furious. The straw buyers were Jacob Montelongo who received 3 1/2 years and Sean Steward who received 9 years. Steward also didn’t have a licence to sell. You can read what you want into the facts and claim scapegoating but I wouldn’t be surprised about that either.

      • DaveH

        Facts from you, Eddie? Not likely.

      • Jimmy the Greek

        Eddie so when do the ones running the fast and furryous scam Get to go to jail ? you know the ones in washington .

      • eddie47d

        Can you dispute what I said Dave H. or are you still playing the fool. Saturday you made the same claim. “Eddie should just admit his dishonesty” when no lie was made. In other words your accusations are programmed and meaningless and actually makes you the liar!

      • eddie47d

        We may never see the light of day on that one Jimmy the Greek. The operation was out of Phoenix and someone was reprimanded for it but I don’t think jail time was involved.

      • JeffH

        eddie, you’re just not bright enough to figure it out are you!

        Scapegoating is why they have started making the arrests of straw buyers and have forced resignations within the ATF…it’s all about misdirection and getting your eyes off the prize(Holder and the Administration).

        It’s just too bad that it took a Congressional investigation along with hundreds of thousands of signed petitions demanding an investigation and answers over the DOJ/ATF “Fast & Furious” scandal that cost the life of Brian Terry and others to get some arrests.

        As usual, this is how your government works…you may trust them…but I won’t ever again.

      • Jimmy the Greek

        You know eddie that if the fast and fuzzy happened with the Republicans they would be pulling the same thing , Like they said when you flush it runs down hill .

  • http://www.facebook.com/suzanne.patterson.7587 Suzanne Patterson

    I’m just a poorly educated housewife so I hope that someone with more smarts can answer this:
    If it costs $100.00 to buy a loaf of bread in a period of hyperinflation what will be the effect on wages? Will they stay the same or will employers be forced to increase employee pay?

    If today I owe someone $100 and that loan extends to a point in time after the onset of hyperinflation, will I repay $100 (thus realizing a huge discount on my loan) or will creditors demand repayment based on the value of the hyper-inflated dollar? And what are the chances that their lobbiests will pursuade Congress to pass legislation to do just that?

    • Dean Brandt

      What a great question! I have had the same thoughts as I owe a lot of money to banks for my business and my home. It would work out great if I could raise the cost of my products because of hyper-inflation but pay my loans off with the same de-valued doller.

      • Steve E

        Paying off in lower dollars is what the government has in mind when it sells treasury bills. Inflation, the government hopes, will help pay off the debt it now has with worthless dollars. It does bad to the public but it helps the government pay off its debt. A poor person who now makes $10,000 a year will have to make $250,000 a year to buy the same things. But, remember, you will be in the high tax bracket then, so you will actually have less. Keep in mind that they want to raise taxes on those with $250,000 or more. So those that want that tax hike on the so called rich will be paying that same tax in the near future when hyperinflation hits.

      • Mike Carey

        Personally I don’t think you can raise wages and profits from sales in a business fast enough to out gallop hyperinflation. Worse yet is that when the cycle turns to deflation, the only products on the mind of anyone with money will be basics. I project that even hardware stores will go bankrupt as that anything that can be put off will be put off.. This could be a very vicious cycle. But, soldiers and federal government workers will be in the drivers seat as far as wages. Groceries and energy companies and utilities would weather the storm. Medical services would recover first.

        One of my concerns would be how will the infrastructure stand up. When I looked at the Compton riots, there were no groceries stores left. I drove through there about a year after it happen. There was nothing viably left on any scale. Best Buy may have to rely on the internet. Shopping malls in many places could be ghost towns–especially the strip malls. That 70% that drives our economy could also have no credit offered to consumers.

        During the great Depression, I believe almost 20% of the workers were in agriculture. I think the figure today is about 3%. We already know the manufacturing has declined substantially in the last twenty years in this country. So unemployment will be greater. A friend of mine said WalMart is already cutting its Christmas hire; as someone quits no one is being hired. So I think lean and mean will prevail for any businesses left standing. Recovery will happen but at a very slow rate.

        Probably the worse case is that the government will be run by a fellow who believes he can just order things to happen, and they will. I believe that Romney would have had to face the same challenges, but he would have a kinder heart and more of a grasp of what to do.

      • eddie47d

        Steve E.:We haven’t seen true hyperinflation in several years yet it is bound to happen. Interest rates have to go up at some point and that will be another economic cycle . Since you want to defend the wealthy who have kept increasing prices for many years when interest rates are still are low and the inflation rates are low at this present time. Private health insurers increased rates 56% about 7 years ago when inflation was only about 3%> Ask yourself how do they get away with doing that? Why do the wealthy increase their paychecks 7-15% while most workers either receive no inflation increase or maybe 1-3%. Century Link (formerly Quest) wants to cut their employees income in half and on top of that make them pay 30% more in any benefit they receive. They just outsourced another department to India also. There may be a new reality out there yet the wealthy cheat the system thus causing price increases and that leads to hyperinflation and less buying power for the consumer.

      • Steve E

        I agree with you eddie. Just to clear of one fact though. I only support the wealthy that do not run , cheat or manipulate the system (government). I do not support the wealthy that support those in government (which are many). There are some wealthy people that do not buy the government.

        • Patty

          Agreed. People are always attacking the “big corporations”, but never their conduit (elected officials) who make and manipulate laws that they are bought and paid for to do so. The very people we think are there to “protect” us, are by design the ones who hurt us the worst.

    • Patty

      A contract is a contract. (Supposedly) If you have a mortgage, it expires when your contract expires. So if anyone still has an arm, dump it. Revolving credit cards change all the time. If your interest rate is not “locked” in over the life of your loan, look out. You will be gouged with interest.

      • DaveH

        It’s fitting that you said “Supposedly”, Patty. Because with Banks and Big Government, anything is possible. Since the beginnings of our country, banks have worked hand in hand with Big Government to defraud their depositors. Read this excellent book by Murray Rothbard to see how that defrauding took place:
        http://mises.org/Books/historyofmoney.pdf

      • DaveH

        Those who have little understanding of money dynamics should read this book first:
        http://mises.org/books/whathasgovernmentdone.pdf

      • Patty

        Dave H – I said supposedly, because they threw the book out on bankruptcy when they “bailed” out the auto industry. And they will keep changing the laws/rules to fit the situation. There are no rules any longer.

    • Jimmy the Greek

      Suzanne you would still only have to pay back 100.00 on that you would come out good and pay would have to go up as the dollar was worth less . the problem would be that when you ran down to walmart to buy some chinese junk it would break you because the dollar would not be worth much . You see the government is printing dollars to pay china for what they borrowed and the more they print the less they are worth because there is no gold to back them . The price of a gallon of gas is not going up what is happening is the value of the dollar is going down so you need more dollars to buy that gallon of gas than you did five years ago ,

  • larry ritzer

    Its about time we take over things and fire the smartest jerks running gov. If they want to run a 3rd world country let them move to a third world country and not steal what we worked so hard for. we have to take back our country

    • Jimmy the Greek

      We are a third world country ! open your eyes look at all the people moving in there all from south of Texas , that is what is turning this into a third world country , right now some parts of Texas look like your in mexico !

      • Karolyn

        Well, it belonged to them first.

      • Jimmy the Greek

        But they were to stupid to hang on to it !

      • JC

        Karolyn says:
        December 3, 2012 at 1:11 pm
        Well, it belonged to them first.
        __________________________________________________________

        So, that justifies letting the US go down the toilet?
        We could also say that the caveman owned it first…so everyone, get a club, wear a loin cloth and move back to a cave.

        Come on Karolyn, you’re capable of better than that….aren’t you?

      • Karolyn

        Sorry Jimmy. Documented aliens have every right to be here, and I don’t blame the undocumented productive ones. They need to feed their families too. It is unfortunate that their own country can’t take care of them.

        • Joe America

          Karolyn,

          I want you to go down and cross the border into Mexico, illegally. You know what will happen to you? You’ll get ten years in a Federali prison. We don’t do that to illegals, do we? No, we’re much more human than that. We just give them a ride home, after we give them free healthcare, food and educations. Additionally, they file for income tax returns, including all their children, nieces and nephews, as deductions, taking more out of their host nation than they paid in.

          I have two friends, one’s an engineer, the other, his wife, is a physician. A friend of mine sponsored them to immigrate from Argentina. It took them five years to get their green cards. Now, they’re on the road to citizenship. Their skills have helped improve this nation. They created jobs, participated in vital research and are model immigrants, worthy of citizenship. Should an illegal alien be able to bump in line, ahead of them? No.

          I’m not against immigration, as this nation has been built, by immigrants. However, folks need to get in line and do it legally. From my personal point of view, half my relatives met the boats and the other half arrived on it. My Native American side sees immigrants as interlopers. My immigrant side says, “welcome aboard.” So, I’m not against immigration. But, any nation that doesn’t have control over it’s borders, it out of control. Immigrants coming in uncontrolled can ruin the economy of their host nation. Not only that, the likelyhood of folks coming in, that really want to do us harm, is greatly increased.

          Everyone wants to improve their lot in life, which is why all immigrants have come to America. Every nation of origin sucked, that’s why people come to America. So, everyone has a sad story. If they want to come, and escape a bad situation, they need to do it, legally. Otherwise, stay the hell out.

        • Motov

          How about this policy?

          ***New Immigration Laws***

          Be sure to read to the bottom or you will miss the message…

          1. There will be no special bilingual programs in the schools.
          2. All ballots will be in this nation’s language.
          3. All government business will be conducted in our language.
          4. Non-residents will NOT have the right to vote no matter how long they are here.
          5. Non-citizens will NEVER be able to hold political office.
          6. Foreigners will not be a burden to the taxpayers. No welfare, no food stamps, no health care, or any other government assistance programs. Any who are a burden will be deported.
          7. Foreigners can invest in this country, but it must be an amount at least equal to 40,000 times the daily minimum wage.
          8. If foreigners come here and buy land, their options will be restricted. Certain parcels including waterfront property are reserved for citizens naturally born into this country.
          9. Foreigners may have NO protests; NO demonstrations, NO waving of a foreign flag, no political organizing, NO bad-mouthing our president or his policies. These will lead to deportation.
          10. If you do come to this country illegally, you will be actively hunted and, when caught, sent to jail until your deportation can be arranged. All assets will be taken from you.

          Too strict.?
          The above laws are the current immigration laws of MEXICO.!

          • Joe America

            Amen to that!

          • http://tlgeer.wordpress.com tlgeer

            “Too strict.?
            The above laws are the current immigration laws of MEXICO.!”

            We are not Mexico. We have a different foundation, and I’m very glad of it. IMO, people need to stop comparing us to other countries because we are not them. We do things differently.

          • Motov

            When I see Mexicans that are here illegally,…. stomping,..spitting, …and showing total disrespect for our flag, I cannot and will not be silent of their disgusting behavior.
            If they hate this country that much,..why are they here? Go back where they come from,…
            I bet if they did the same in their home country using their flag, blood would be spilt!

          • tgeer

            “When I see Mexicans that are here illegally,…. stomping,..spitting, …and showing total disrespect for our flag, I cannot and will not be silent of their disgusting behavior.
            If they hate this country that much,..why are they here? Go back where they come from,…”

            Our country is founded, partly, on freedom of speech. That you do not like how some people use that freedom is just too bad. Get over it. Nobody is asking you to be silent, at all, at their disgusting behavior. Speak up. Use YOUR freedom of speech. But you do not have the right to restrict theirs.

            What makes you believe that they hate our country? If they did they wouldn’t be here. The freedom to speak out on what you believe is a basic tenet of this country. While you may not like what they are doing, you do not have the right to stop them.

            I do, however, agree that if they are here illegally (with certain exceptions) that they should either leave voluntarily or be deported.

          • Frank Kahn

            Actually there are rules defining what is disrespect for our flag. The description of stomping on the flag would imply that the flag is violating two such rules, 1. never displayed flat, always flying free and 2 never allowed to touch the ground. Disrespecting the flag is disrespecting the nation, so it would imply a dislike if not hatred for our country.

    • Marty S.

      Our country is still here but it has been accosted by banksters, big government politicians from both sides, and everyday petty theft moochers.

  • Dave67

    Gloom, Doom, Fear….. its almost upon us…. Just like in 2008.

    Got a new record? This one is broken.

    The tax rates for the rich need to go up. Somehow business in this country got done done with the oppressive rates of 1962, the Reagan era and the Clinton era. Your big lie is that Obama and liberals want it to go up due to envy or resentment… no… its math.

    But that is only part of the solution.

    We are in the middle of the baby-boomer retirement era so Medicare/Medicaid do need to be changed to get the country passed this era. We need reductions in military spending, farm subsidies and oil subsidies etc. (Spending cuts). We also need spending increases in our infrastructure to compete in the world market.

    Its funny though to hear about Obama and his “redistribution” minions… Money to help poor people and the middle class is bad… But the system that allows big monied interests to write the laws and he tax codes to put more money into the wealthy’s pockets….Thats not redistribution at all… that is the warped version of capitalism that gets practiced in this country and is not the focus of you Mr Livingstion.

    Here is another reality… Taxation is NOT theft. Its a means for society to get things done. We are paying historically LOW taxes. Sweden, Denmark, the Netherlands all have much higher rates than they United States (we are 23rd in the world as far as tax rates go) and yet they have a higher standard of living and more upward mobility. Denmark is right below the United States in ease of doing business. How can that be? We live in something called a society and you need to understand how society’s work.

    http://www.doingbusiness.org/rankings

    SS since 1990 is a separate entity for the normal budget and if both parties could keep their filthy mitts off the fund, SS would be fine.

    The reality is we got past the Great Depression and we will bet past this economic downturn. What is slowing us down is the negative nancies like yourself.

    You and DaveH may try and fool people to think theory is some how fact and reality but its just not. You are correct that the GOP’s lie is that they are for smaller gov and fiscal responsibility because their record is quite the opposite. The size of the Gov is not the issue, its how well the Gov works.

    Our debt exploded due to Ronald Reagan and his idea that you can increase spending and reduce taxes and somehow you don’t get huge deficits. Its just false but we love our credit cards, the ease in which to get credit that Reagan ushered in with his deregulation of the banking industry. We are dealing with the results of allowing people that do not qualify for credit to have the ability to hang themselves in a consumption society. The banksters made alot of money… The poor and middle class get bankruptcy. Act two of this sham was the Affordable Housing Act passed by Clinton. Its a nice idea to allow everyone to own a home but not when they can’t afford the home if you follow good business practices… But the banks, wall street, Fannie and Freddie, AIG and the real estate investors were making money hand over fist… what could go wrong? After 9-11, Bush’s advice for the country was to go out and spend money… take equity out of your home. The market is great.

    In Dec 2007, we saw what could go wrong and if the conservatives had their way and privatized SS, people would be in even deeper trouble.

    Today, we need to hold politicians accountable for getting the economy back on track… That means breaking up the big banks, putting in proper regulations and enforcing them to make sure people have a very difficult time gaming the system. Revisit all trade deals with other countries and closing the income gap. Countries survive when the wealth and opportunity is more equally spread out to all of the people. Concentration of wealth just to the few spells disaster for countries and history has shown this to be true.

    It also means the wealthy paying more… Its only part of the solution but its a necessary part. The lie is that if you raise taxes on the wealthy, they won’t create the jobs… People like Warren Buffett chuckle at that ridiculous notion. If low taxes equals great jobs for all, we would be awash in jobs.

    So how about a little less fear and more reality?

    Sincerely,

    Dave67

    • http://yahoo bob peters

      PENDEJO!!!!

      • Steve E

        Si Senor.

      • Dave67

        Call me all the names you wish because you have no real answers. You just buy what you are being sold here hook line and sinker… They need fools like you to exist.

    • JJM

      MORON! MARXIST! No time for fools like you!

      • Dave67

        Do you even know what the term means conservative parrot?

    • Jibbs

      Clueless

      • Dave67

        Yes you are.

    • Texas Ride

      Dave67, the most important fact isn’t mentioned in your post. Other countries pay higher taxes and have a high standard of living BECAUSE they all Work! Other countries don’t let half of their population live off the other half!! No country can sustain the outrageous redistribution of wealth that is done in this country! That is the basis of all our problems we have a huge National debt to come of $90 Trillion in the amount of unsustainable social programs for people that have NEVER contributed to the economy! And, don’t forget that we have a foreigner off the streets of a third-world country running our lives.

      • Dave67

        The Koch Brothers and other corporatists are from a 3rd world country?

      • Texas Ride

        Dave67, please try to focus…

      • Dave67

        Focus? You were talking about the entity that is controlling our lives being from a 3rd world country… Its the wealthy corporatists that have the political access and the money to lobby Congress to put forth the laws that benefit their interests, that control things in this country so I just assumed you have knowledge of the Koch Brother’s birthplace.

        The rest of your blatherings are nonsense.

      • eddie47d

        Maybe Texas Ride should do a little focusing herself. The redistribution of wealth is rapidly going upward or haven’t you noticed so you are only partially right. Granted there are those on the bottom who abuse the system yet the majority of the economic abuses are coming from the top. Its called greed and they are also the takers who have manipulated the markets to please themselves not the Middle Class or even the economy. In Russia they take economic abusers to trial and then jail. In China (if caught) these businessmen can be executed . In the USA we shrug our shoulders and treat them like some rouge cowboy to admire. Some will say the under class has no morals but I will say that title is increasingly going to the upper class.

      • Nobody’s Fool

        You can bet your redistributed dollar that Dave67 is one of the takers, not one of the producers in this country. Methinks he doth protest too much!!

      • Nobody’s Fool

        What I said about dave67 also applies to eddie47. Takers, not producers.

      • eddie47d

        That means you’re still a FOOL because some of those “producers” are big time “Takers”.

      • Dave67

        Nobody,

        Please explain why I and liberals are takers… while you and conservatives are “producers” epecially when the states that vote conservative take more money from the Fed Gov than they pay in.

        “taker” states like IL, CA and NY get less than they pay in.

        Care to explain that?

      • Texas Ride

        Dave67, I know it is really hard for you radicals to stay focused and you love to blather about nonsense instead of facts.

        Your blathering about the birth place of Koch has nothing to do with the fact that “half of this country refuses to work and they expect to live off the other half!”

        Please address that issue. That is the problem in this country, other than the third-world illegal alien that is running our lives.

        You radicals just have to stop being so envious of success! If you don’t like the fact that there are lobbyists, get the law changed to abolish lobbying. Lets not destroy the country.

      • Texas Ride

        Eddie and dave67 can’t talk about the problems of today! One wants to talk about Russia, and the other wants to talk about the Koch birthplace…..

        The comment was, our problems are the half of the country that refuses to work and want to be supported….and the illegal alien that advertisses for more illegal aliens to come here and feed at the trough! Typical radicals, they won’t face what all the conservatives and those of sound minds, know to be true.

        Radicals won’t talk about the real problems. They make up facts about the past or they make up phony problems that don’t exist. There was a recent study that found one in five people in this country have mental problems…we know who those people are that can’t cope! We read their diatribes on this blog, daily (because they don’t work.)

        [comment has been edited]

      • momo

        Dave67 says:”“taker” states like IL, CA and NY get less than they pay in.”

        Dave67, those are some of the worst run states in the US. California is the worst, Illinois ranks as the 48th worst state and New York come in 39th

        http://247wallst.com/2012/11/27/the-best-and-worst-run-states-in-america-a-survey-of-all-50/4/

      • eddie47d

        Dave 67 was trying to make the point that those states give more to Washington DC than they get back such as California. They get .80 back for every dollar they send in while Alaska gets back $1.80 back for every dollar they send in. That would make Alaska the taker while California gets cheated.

      • Dave67

        Texas<

        Maybe I mis-understood…

        "don’t forget that we have a foreigner off the streets of a third-world country running our lives."

        Who were you referring to?

        The corp lobby runs much of DC, thus our lives… was their a member of the Corp lobby you were talking about specifically?

    • John

      Dave67;
      You make a lot of points, none of which are completely accurate. Why don’t you just say you don’t believe in Freedom and be done with it? Their is no money in the Social Security trust fund. Only IOU’s. So a privatized system even with a decline in the stock market would at least have a little money in it. I believe in Freedom. I believe the government has no right to tell me what to do with money I earn. Expansion of the money supply by globalist bankers will create massive inflation and already has caused tribulation. Once you see the riots, your paradigm will end. For your own sake, take some precautions.

      • Dave67

        Yawn,

        I disagree with you so I hate freedom… Such a bunch of tired nonsense.

        http://www.justfacts.com/socialsecurity.asp#impact

        * The Social Security program has an independent budget that is separate from the rest of the federal government.

        * When the Social Security program collects more in taxes than it spends, it generates surplus money. By law, the only thing that the Social Security program can do with surplus money is loan it to the U.S. government.[

        * The money that the federal government owes to the Social Security program is held in the form of securities issued by the United States Treasury. These securities are analogous to U.S. savings bonds, except that they can be redeemed before maturity without suffering a loss or enjoying a gain due to market forces. These securities cannot be purchased by the general public.

        * Bonds that represent the debt that the U.S. government owes to Social Security are located in a file cabinet at the Bureau of Public Debt in Parkersburg, West Virginia

        You have a RESPONSIBILITY (I know conservatives hate that word) as part of our society. (taxes, voting, service to the country (something bigger than yourself) You don’t like it? Somalia will welcome you with open arms.

        This is the United States of America. You feel your taxes are too high even though wew are paying historically low taxes? Leave… Just leave.

      • DaveH

        For those who want to know the truth about Social Security:
        http://mises.org/daily/5658/Is-Social-Security-a-Ponzi-Scheme

        1) The Social Security Trust Fund consists entirely of Government Securities. How safe is that? In 2011 the Social Security Trust Fund held $2.7 Trillion worth of Government IOUs.
        2) Social Security paid benefits of $725 billion in 2011. So if Government ceased taking money from the younger people, who will probably never see the benefits, the fund would only cover 4 years worth of payments to existing retirees. And that is dependent on the value of those “safe” Government Securities that back up the fund.
        3) Taking money from people, against their will for whatever excuse, is just plain Theft. But to add insult to injury the Government has pillaged the Trust Fund and made it entirely dependent on Government Securities. In other words — They took our money and spent it on OTHER things.

      • DaveH

        Dave67 (in typical “compassionate” Liberal Progressive fashion) says — “You feel your taxes are too high even though wew are paying historically low taxes? Leave… Just leave”.
        No, Dave67, YOU leave. We’ve had enough of your theft.

      • eddie47d

        Some taxes are at a historical low so Dave67 didn’t make a misstatement. We all know taxes will go up next year so if that is your beef Dave H then say so instead of refuting everything that someone says and trying to make them out to be a liar. That old trick of yours is getting old!

      • Dave67

        DaveH, you are in the minority. Why should I leave when I am in the majority? You don’t want to pay taxes? Somalia or find an island you can call your own. I will even give you a volleyball and you can paint a face of it and call him “wilson” so it can be your friend.

        You have no clue about reality, only theory… you and Bob both…

      • Texas Ride

        Dave67 and eddie, obviously want to control people, eliminate freedom, and redistribute all the wealth. Maybe they have no wealth of their own and want some of everyone elses.
        I suggest they go to a communist country to live where they will fit right in, no problem.

        Regardless, these two are typical libs that subscribe to the marxisim that Karl came up with…the ideology that turns prosperous countries into third-world hellholes. They want everyone to be the same…have the same living quarters, eat the same food, dress the same, and they want to punish those that don’t want that kind of life. Wonder if they read “Agenda 21″ the book!

        Everyone in the book lives in tiny rooms provided by the government, they eat food wafers provided by the government (if they meet their work quotas) and wear clothes provided by the government! Everyone is treated the same…except for the elites!

        Anyone would have to be mentally retarded to wish that kind of life for this country..
        Secession will throw a wrench into their plans. When the producers refuse to play the game any longer, the takers (the radicals and their useless minions) will have to fend for themselves..

        • http://tlgeer.wordpress.com tlgeer

          “Regardless, these two are typical libs that subscribe to the marxisim that Karl came up with…the ideology that turns prosperous countries into third-world hellholes. They want everyone to be the same…have the same living quarters, eat the same food, dress the same, and they want to punish those that don’t want that kind of life.”

          Where did you get this insane idea?

          • Joe America

            China and Russian experimented with socialism and communism and they discovered, that it just wasn’t sustainable. No nations could have tried harder to make communism and socialism work, but they failed. It’s a failed concept, which will only be embraced by someone who doesn’t want to work, but wants to eat, and live like the Lillies of the Field, who work not, or toil not, yet are provided for. What we’re talking about, here, are bums who wouldn’t work as tasters in a pie factory. They are the entitled and affirmative actioned scum of the Earth. They are the jerks who may or may not graduate from high school, but want, immediately, to have everything their parents worked a lifetime for, without having to work for it. They want to be corporate presidents, telling the entire world what to do, and how to do it, even through they are ignorant and dumber than hoe handles. They deserve all they desire, simply because they are themselves, and therefore, being their wonderful selves, are entitled. Here is a clue, anyone who wants something needs to get up off their lazy asses and work for it. Not take it from someone else. This is the problem with socialism and communism. You have turds who want to sit around the fire, staying safe and warm. Now, they don’t want to go out and get the wood to stoke the fire and keep it going, NO, that’s someone elses job. They want someone to grow their food and go out and hunt and bring it to them. And, if possible, like a Saturday Night Live skit with Chris Katan, chew up the food and spit it in their mouths. Why? Because they are too good to work and earn their way. That’s communism and that’s the kind of person(s) it breeds.

          • Motov

            I had a supervisor that fits that description,.. Had no clue what it took for us working folks to get quality parts processed and out the door, We made it look easy because we knew what we were doing, Every now and then he’d get a bug up his arse and question some of our procedures, or he’d send someone totally unqualified to do a job, leaving us to clean up the mess. I was in a long line of people who walked out the door because of his “We never have time to do it right, but we have time to do it all over again attitude”.

          • Joe America

            I just have to throw out this wonderful story about communism. There was a steel mill in China, which was not profitable. The Chinese government couldn’t make it go, so they privatised it and sold it to an entrepreneur, hoping he could turn it around. The work ethic was horrible. These folks had gone for decades, sitting on their asses, producing nothing, yet getting paid. When this gentleman tried to get them to work, they had a little sit down strike. This man tried everyway in the world to motivate these people, who, for decades, had gotten away with doing little to no work for their pay. Finally, the man put his foot down and told them that if they didn’t do their jobs, they’d fire him. Well, to make a long story short, they encircled the man and literally beat him to death. The ring leaders were prosecuted, but the majority got off. The lesson is that communism and socialism create entitled monsters. This is what “a something for nothing society” creates. If we go in this direction, and I believe that’s where we’re headed, we are going to create the same kind of entitled monsters. And, when they don’t get what they want, they’re going to turn on society like ravenous wolves. And society’s crime, in their eyes, will be that solciety denied them what they wanted, not neccessarily deserved. Forget whether, or not, they deserved it. That doesn’t matter, because, they’re entitled.

      • Dave67

        Texas,

        Yes, I hate freedom and want to control you and every part of your life… Thats it.

        Are you Rick Perry?

        When you get a whiff of the real world, does that scare you and you have to look at Fox news to feel safe.

        Do you even know what communism is? If you did, you would not be making such a silly statement.

        Please… Texas, stop while you are way behind.

      • Texas Ride

        Dave67, obviously you don’t know what freedom means! You obviously don’t know what the Constitution means and you don’t know what Americanism means.

        You can’t handle competition or make your own way in the world. Otherwise, the success of others wouldn’t bother you so much that you want it redistributed.

      • Dave67

        LOL Texas… you are a doosey…

        But you know what Freedom means…. the Constitution…. Americanisms… right.

        One can never have a different opinion from a conservative and know what Freedom is, what the Constitution says, means and its purpose… We certainly are less American than you somehow even though for the past 4 years, your side has been wishing for this country’s failure so you can vote out Obama.

        I have said it before and I will say it again…

        We need to give all the conservatives Texas and call it a day. You can build your walls, make Christianity the state religion, everyone own a gun and freedom as you see it will be allowed. If that freedom conflicts with your state run morality, they will be shot.

        Perfect right?

      • DaveH

        I have no idea what you’re talking about, Eddie, because as usual — Your have no idea what you’re talking about. Exactly what statement of mine are you rebutting?
        Do you ever tire of putting words in peoples’ mouths, Eddie?

      • DaveH

        Dave67 says — “DaveH, you are in the minority. Why should I leave when I am in the majority? You don’t want to pay taxes?”.
        Majority of what, Dave67? You make no sense. Nobody I know wants to pay taxes. They just don’t have a choice. You know, Dave67, “choice”. That quality which you Liberal Progressives only allow for the taking of unborn children’s lives.

      • eddie47d

        I just put your latest insult in the trash can Dave H no different than the rest of them. Its amazing how little you remember in what you said which makes it difficult to debate you. You are always in the denial stage!

      • JeffH

        eddie says to Dave H “Its amazing how little you remember in what you said which makes it difficult to debate you. You are always in the denial stage!”

        That’s a part of your biograpy eddie, a poor memory and a lifetime of denial..

    • brett

      sanity!!!!!!!!!!!! fresh sanity!!!!!!!

    • eddie47d

      Because you won’t see any real answers in what the Banksters did to this nation. That includes Private Mortgage gougers that dumped huge defaulted loans which added to government debt. The taxpayer (and the homeowner from risky loans) has to pay while they played. Before that the Banksters were very slick with credit card interest rates so they keep some Americans in a continual cycle of debt themselves. They always offer a credit card deal as to good to be true yet the Banksters kept getting away with it. They understand addiction very well as they LEGALLY lay their traps.

      • momo

        True eddie, the banksters are very slick, but they’re aided by their politician buddies, who just love those big campaign contributions.

    • Jimmy the Greek

      Dave67 You are right ! The biggest cuts need to be in the military we don’t need to be a dam super power ! we need to keep up our nukes and quit telling the rest of the world how to live . get out of the middle east , quit funding israel , drill our own oil . and import only what we cannot make or mine ourselves. and we need to go back on the gold standard . Bikers used to ware a smell patch on there jackets that had the letters FTW what it stood for was F%#@ the world ! that should be on our flag .

      • Texas Ride

        Jimmy, lets keep our military for security. “Peace through Strength,” still is an undeniable truth. We must protect OUR borders and secure OUR Nation. Stop foreign-aid, stop supporting the muslim terrrorists, and get out of the mideast. Let the camel suckers continue their three-thousand-year wars with each other.

        If we appear weak it emboldens our enemies! Since we are the last country in the world that has some vestiges of freedom and prosperity left, our enemies are many. One of the biggest of our enemies, we pay to support and allow in our country, the UN!

    • DaveH

      Dave67 says — “Your big lie is that Obama and liberals want it to go up due to envy or resentment”.
      No, that isn’t quite right. Why doesn’t that surprise me coming from a Liberal Progressive who is probably a Shill working in a Liberal Progressive Boiler Room?
      Obama wants taxes to go up because that gives him more Power, thus more Perks. He and his cohorts want the average citizen to envy the wealth of others so that the average citizen (brainwashed) will vote to enable his policies and thus feather his nest. The average Liberal Progressive Follower is just being used for the dupe that he/she is.
      Read this book to see what’s really going on. Especially read Chapter 7 which explains how Big Government is actually hurting the poor instead of helping them:
      http://library.mises.org/books/Kel%20Kelly/The%20Case%20for%20Legalizing%20Capitalism.pdf

      • Flashy

        Sigh….always predictable…another say nothing rant followed by a Mises link. Things never change eh DaveH?

      • DaveH

        No, Flashman, they don’t. You keep spewing your unsupported Propaganda, and I keep providing the readers with links to articles and books so they don’t have to just take my word for it.

      • GALT

        STEAL THIS POST………USE AS INSTRUCTED……………..

        a brief excerpt from the book Econned.

        “In 1776, Adam Smith published The Wealth of Nations. In it he argued that the uncoordinated actions of large numbers of individuals, each acting out of self interest, sometimes produced , as if by “an invisible hand,”results that were beneficial to broader society. Smith also pointed out that self interested actions frequently led to injustice or even ruin. He fiercely criticized both how employers colluded with each other to keep wages low, as well as the ” savage injustice ” that European mercantilist interests had “commited with impunity” in colonies in Asia and the Americas.

        Smith’s ideas were cherry picked and turned into a simplistic ideology that now dominates university economics departments. This theory proclaims that the “invisible hand” ensures that economic interest will always lead to the best outcomes imaginable. It follows that any restrictions on the profit seeking activities of individuals and corporations interfer with this invisible hand, and therefor are “inefficient” and nonsensical.

        According to this line of thinking, individuals have perfect knowledge both of what they want and everything happening in the world at large,and so they pass there lives making intelligent decisions. Prices may change in ways that appear random, but this randomness follows predictable and unchanging rules and is never violently chaotic. It is therefore possible for corporations to use clever techniques to reduce and even eliminate the risks associated with their business. The result is a stable productive economy that represents the apex of civilization.

        This heartwarming picture airbrushes out nearly all of the real business world.”

        INSTRUCTIONS FOR USE………..this has been specifically selected to respond to
        the von mises link being used by DavidH…….the kelly book……….for those who insist
        on engaging him………( pointless )……..which will either force him to stop using
        that link…….or actually attempting a response to it’s refutation which is “complete”
        within the excerpt………..and something which he is unable to do……..it should go without saying that……….you should have sufficient understanding of the excerpt…..and be
        smart enough to restrict whatever the attempted response might be……..to avoid
        being distracted from that is actually contained within it……..( it is all you need…..
        so unless you LIKE wasting time…..use it )

    • DaveH

      Dave67 says — “Money to help poor people and the middle class is bad… But the system that allows big monied interests to write the laws and he tax codes to put more money into the wealthy’s pockets….Thats not redistribution at all… that is the warped version of capitalism that gets practiced in this country and is not the focus of you Mr Livingstion”.
      Of course that’s not true (that Bob supports redistribution to the wealthy), but Dave67, being the Liberal Progressive shill that he is, will use whatever underhanded tactics he can muster in an effort to keep people from learning the truth from Bob.

    • DaveH

      More equivocation from Dave67 — “Here is another reality… Taxation is NOT theft. Its a means for society to get things done. We are paying historically LOW taxes”.
      Taxation IS Theft when some people pay more than others for the same services. Especially when the services are neither demanded not used by the tax payers. Most of the Services that the Government offers could be purchased more cheaply, more politely, and Voluntarily from Private Companies who did NOT have the monopoly power of Force like Big Government does.
      So, it IS NOT a means for society to get things done because, due to the inefficiency of Big Government, much less gets done than if people were Free to Voluntarily buy the products and services of their choice.
      Many of those same Big Companies, who Dave67 wants you to envy, are actually working hand-in-hand with that Big Government, that he wants you to support, to defraud you. Dave67 probably knows that but, due to the fact that he’s probably shilling for Big Government, he would rather that you didn’t.
      And I’ve told Dave67 this many times but, again since he is most likely shilling, he ignores it:
      It is not the Taxes that matter. It is the Government Spending that matters. One way or the other the average citizen will pay for that spending, whether it comes from Taxes, Inflation, Future Taxes, or some other source.
      And Government Spending currently (41% of GDP) is at its highest point in our lifetimes if we don’t count the middle of WWII:
      http://www.usgovernmentspending.com/spending_chart_1940_2011USb_13s1li011mcn_F1t

    • DaveH

      Dave67 says — “So how about a little less fear and more reality?”.
      More Reality? Not something we’re ever likely to get from Dave67.

      • eddie47d

        Maybe Dave H should stop spreading so much disinformation and FEAR about others and stick to “reality”. Your opinions are no more important than anyone elses and yes your opinions are important and even welcomed but your ego gets in the way.

      • Dave67

        DaveH,

        Where is reality in your links Davie? Is it the one where they use business examples from the 1890′s or early 1900′s to cite on why monopolies can’t happen? Is the world economy the same as it was then?

        Face it DaveH, you are a sad joke of a person living in your mom’s basement sending out links left and right not knowing (or understanding) what they mean or say in the context of the thread.

        Reality and you are the farthest apart.

      • DaveH

        You can ply your childish techniques, Dave67, but you can’t stop the readers from learning. The more you show your adolescent behavior, the more people will learn what you Liberal Progressives really are.
        Please keep on commenting, Dave67. You are one of my best weapons.

    • Leaving South Carolina

      Taxation may not be theft but inflation certainly is! And governments spending all they can borrow and print is the cause (eventually) of inflation. I’ve never made as much as a union post office worker but I don’t think that taxes should be raised on just the rich. In a truly fair society – what the progressives talk about – everyone should pay some taxes. I don’t care if you are on welfare or food stamps (the goal of the progressives) everyone should pay something so they won’t be always taking and have no interest in the country. A dollar a week or something. Funny how the nation got along for it greatest period of growth – the entire 19th Century and 12 years of the 20th Century without income tax. It was only when the mostly foreign owned Federal Reserve Bank was established by the Democrats to loan them the money they needed that income tax was “invented” in this nation to pay the interest for that “privilege” that we never needed before the Democrats decided we did. Tax and spend but never pay back what is borrowed.

      I had a 25 page chapter just on the economy in my first book and I warned of the soon coming stock market crash that happened two years later. In 2006 (and before) I called what was coming “The Greater Depression” – and it is still coming. What good would it do to tell people that price were going to triple next month. First no one can be sure in the world’s second biggest economy how long we can get away with borrowing and printing money to pay the interest on the national debt. If we were an average sized country we would have gone under years ago. No one has ever owed as much as we do in the history of the world and since every dime in tax will be spent and not used to retire any of the debt other countries are already looking at us as has-been great. We are not yet where England, and Spain and France, and Ancient Rome and others eventually ended up but we but we are fast approaching it.

      No wonder the Progressives hate God and religion so much. The Bible has the audacity to say that he who will not work will not eat! Oh, they won’t admit they hate God and the Bible but 99 weeks of unemployment? Washington is a cesspool or what President Jackson called the bankers, “a den to vipers and thieves” and only a handful of representatives are actually representing the people. Did you know that seven of the top richest members of Congress are Democrats? 70% of the top ten. Are they the greedy rich you are talking about?

      However you needn’t worry because what is coming is going to make the Great Depression look like a walk in the park. Just on Black Friday the FBI computers crashed twice with the overload of sellers verifying that the buyers of guns were legally able to do so, some 154,000 persons (who could have been buying more than one gun). No wonder the progressives want to do away with the Constitution and those pesky amendments and the Bill of Rights. If the progressives are successful in destroying the economy then all will be affected. It has been said that Progressive Socialist Democracy is a religion of true believers who believe that man is god and that they should rule him. That makes no sense to me but then I never could fully grasp religious cults anyway.

      God made man free and the Satan has tried to enslave him since time began, but such things are beyond the understanding of progressives who always want to raise taxes and take something that is not there to give to someone who didn’t earn it. I oppose raising taxes on anyone unless taxes are raised on everyone. THAT IS FAIR and that I believe is what is coming! Of course history shows that every time taxes are raised the money is always spent, most likely squandered.

      The Republicans are as gullible as the Democrats are devious. Reagan allowed taxes to be raised but the Democratic promise of less spending never materialized. Somehow the first President Bush fell for the same line. From “read my lips” to agreeing with tax hikes to get Democratic cuts in spending which never materialized he paid the price by being kicked out after one term. And now like Charlie Brown about to kick the football of spending cuts that Democratic Lucy is holding forth if only they will pass more taxes. How stupid can Republicans be or are they really just Democrats by another name. They get fooled time and time again because they live on hope instead of reality. Progressives are addicted to raising taxes. It is one of there commandments or their “prime directive” as Captain Kirk would say. THEY WILL NEVER CUT SPENDING UNTIL THERE IS NO MORE TO SPEND AND ALL ARE BROKE AND “Late Great United States” is no more.

      I certainly don’t support the destruction of the United States that even the information discovered in the ancient Hebrew Bible with Bible Code software indicates that Barack Obama will be blamed for, but at least he is doing what he said he would do, radically change the country, and a majority of Americans apparently want to see it destroyed and remade, but if history is any guide freedom is almost always the victim when this happens.

      Some of what you say is true “Today, we need to hold politicians accountable for getting the economy back on track… That means breaking up the big banks, putting in proper regulations and enforcing them to make sure people have a very difficult time gaming the system. Revisit all trade deals with other countries….” and then you say “and closing the income gap. Countries survive when the wealth and opportunity is more equally spread out to all of the people.” The latter statement obliterates the former. The United States has the richest “poor” in the world. The United States of America has offered the greatest opportunities to people of every race and creed and color. Ten of millions have come from every part of the globe because of the opportunities here that exist nowhere else, yet the progressives and elite of other countries hate that because like a few here, the don’t want to see some work 80 hours a week and get ahead. I have known a Hispanic immigrant who worked 40 hours a week as a police office and 40 hours a week as a cook, and I have known immigrants from Cambodia who live four families to a house until they can buy it and the ones next to it. People generally get what they earn.

      If we would stop looking to the state as if it were god, and returned to the universal truths of the God of our founders we would not be in the mess we are in, but I must
      agree that things are going to get far worse and those who refuse to life a finger to do anything to prepare will suffer the most because they will know they “could have” but chose not to do so for one reason or another.

      End of the world, possible, but not likely. Even the Bible speaks of things to come, a one world money system, a comet or asteroid hitting the ocean and more but because Bob and others can’t say exactly when things will happen some dismiss them altogether, but ignoring the weatherman because we don’t want the hurricane to hit us is not wise.

    • JeffH

      Well, well. Dave67(paid troll or [comment has been edited])makes his first post @ 8:07am…your internet trolling workday must start at 8:00am.

      Just sayin’.

      • Dave67

        JeffH calls me a name because he has nothing else… shocking I tell you… shocking. So when you DaveH and the rest of the theory brigade get together… do you take turns figuring out who is going to lead on the BS today?

        Nice to see you can tell time JeffH… Its a step in the right direction for you.

      • JeffH

        C’mon D67, give me a rousing bahhhh, bahhhhh, bahhhh. By the way, the bell on you collar doesn’t sound right…time for a new one or does it have some residue from the trough on it. You might want to check it!

      • eddie47d

        Neither of your comments Jeff H made much sense and more of a head scratcher. Oh well we all have those days!

      • Dave67

        Nah, I like to let you and DaveH wallow in your own theorist BS. You boys will let us know when you get in the game called the businessworld won’t you?

        Its obvious neither of you have a clue how the real world works.

      • JeffH

        eddie, both of my comments make a lot of sense…to someone that has any…you are excluded of course.

        D67, oh, so it’s all about knowing how the “real business world works”…or is it how the cronies work? That you’re a shill for the cronies I guess you would understand…up to a point…usefull idiots!

      • JeffH

        Allow me to make a minor correction…should have said “real crony world”.

      • DaveH

        Dave67 says — “Its obvious neither of you have a clue how the real world works”.
        Feel free, Dave67, to enlighten us anytime that you can get some time away from your sandbox.

        How much are you costing us, Dave67? Whatever it is, it is the typical Government waste of taxpayer money.

    • Karolyn

      BRAVO! Speaking of infrastructure, I heard an intrview the other day that talked about how wonderful the roads are in so many other countries while ours continue to disintegrate. I wish I could remember what country the man was talking about, but he said that he and his wife searched for potholes and could not find one! China is doing an excellent job on their roads and bridges as are many other countries. There has been much too little spent on our roads and bridges. When a bridge falls down, then everybody notices.

      • DaveH

        How can that be, Karolyn? Government spends more than at any other time in our history except during WWII. Intelligent people would take that as evidence that it isn’t working. But for Liberal Progressives it’s just over the next mountain, right?

      • Karolyn

        Dave – What is that supposed to mean? Of course it costs more these days.

    • NewWorldOrder

      Ola Davie, Giving the govt more of the hard working Americans money will cause what to happen? DidgovtFORWARD say they were going to pay down the debt wth this money? No, they have a spendng problem, not a revenue problem. Don,t give a diabetic more tons of candy Davie. ie, economys expand when there is more demand, the govt sucked up the money supply with debt spending, so now we have less money av. to chase more products. Get it, less money floating around to be spent, and a huge increae in govt debt. Try tying the 2 together?

      • Dave67

        Our Gov has a spending and taxation problem… We spend money where its not needed (Military bases in Germany and Japan for example, the Iraq war and corp welfare is another) and shortchange this country and its infrastructure.

        Some believe you can tax cut and spend your way to prosperity. They past 30 years have proven what a fraud that thinking is.

        We need investment, spending cuts (in certain areas) and tax hikes to pay for what we have wrought on ourselves.

        DaveH and the other theorists hate all taxes because they hate this country and believe someone else should pay the bills. I love America and want this country to succeed. I try to channel where my money goes by the people I support to run the Gov. I don’t vote GOP due to their record of being chickenhawks for useless wars like Iraq for their corp friends, just like I won’t vote for Democrats who spend money with no accountability for how the money is spent and other corporatism that they engage in.

        Country first, not major stockholders first.

      • DaveH

        Country first? Sure. More like Politically Connected First. The rest of us can eat cake.

        For those who want to see real life experience resulting from Big Government, just peruse this list of countries ordered by their Economic Freedom. Check out the economies and average income for those at the bottom to see what Dave67 and his gang have in store for us:
        http://heritage.org/index/ranking

    • Mr.Ben

      Dave67, some very good points. Reducing government spending is necessary, as is re-working SS and Med programs. You also mentioned we need a government that “works better”, and “we need to hold politicians accountable”. ALL good things. However, you mentioned that, “it’s not the size of the government that matters, it’s how we’ll it works”. This is where we separate in our political philosophy. The federal governments growth has directly caused a majority of our nation’s problems. The amount of tax money that funds federal programs and regulations is close to 50% of what the states use themselves. If we slashed the entire federal budget, states would have (at least) double the money to spend, and that does not include what is put into military spending. If Americans ever want to influence politics, if you ever want Americans to be passionate about politics, than the federal power needs to be sliced and diced. Taxation IS theft, but I’m sure society would feel more kindly about spooning up the dough if they knew exactly how their taxes were being spent. After all, before 1913, 80-90% of government’s revenue came from import tariffs.

      You also said, “The reality is we got past the Great Depression and we will bet past this economic downturn”. I do not agree with this either. The next depression will be much different. 1930 Americans were more rural and food sufficient, 2012 Americans..not so much. 1930 businesses were largely manufacturing, 2012 businesses…largely financial. 1930 military bases and wars were non-existent, 2012 military bases….. > 900 and involved in two wars. When the world decides the American dollar is not a viable option for a world reserve currency, the trillions abroad will flood our market and Americans will have nothing tangible to fall back on, like they did in 1930.

      You said, “countries survive when the wealth and opportunity is more equally spread”. TRUE, but that will never happen when the government, state or federal, tries to do so with it’s own plans and ideas. Money and People are not a closed system that we can study like a science experiment, only the individual actors can perceive their individual actions. Individual freedom to do so WILL result in minimum class-warfare.

      When it comes to trade, all countries should be treated the same. Giving preferential treatment to some countries, NAFTA, and not to others, creates an automatic disparity in the market. Free trade is the idea, with small import tariffs to fund the federal government and to support manufacturing through exports.

    • JC

      Dave67 says:
      December 3, 2012 at 8:07 am
      Gloom, Doom, Fear….. its almost upon us…. Just like in 2008.

      Got a new record? This one is broken.

      The tax rates for the rich need to go up. Somehow business in this country got done done with the oppressive rates of 1962, the Reagan era and the Clinton era. Your big lie is that Obama and liberals want it to go up due to envy or resentment… no… its math.
      _____________________________________________________________________

      And the math says that the cumulative debt of the last few administrations, most notably the Kenyan’s adminstration…can NOT be paid down by the overly simple notion of “tax the rich”. So what do we do after we’ve bled this vague group of people dry?

      Hey I know…tax everybody that has more than you do…right?

      • http://tlgeer.wordpress.com tlgeer

        “most notably the Kenyan’s adminstration”

        We don’t have a Kenyan, no matter how much you may wish to believe it. What you are doing with this is called “magical thinking”. Grow up and start dealing with the real world. That starts with admitting that what you wish to believe is not always correct.

        • Joe America

          Frankly, his mother was an American citizen, unless she revoked her citizenship and I have no knowledge that that ever happened, then he’s an American citizen. When McCain was running in 2008, he too, was born outside of the USA, in Panama, while his father was stationed there. So, I think this is a moot point. I’m more concerned with his communist upbringing and affilliations, than I am his place of birth. All that being said, he’s our president, and presently, the only one we’ve got. My suggestion is to pray our asses off that he’s going to want to leave a positive legacy and will be a better president than anyone thinks he might be. As for this thing about Republicans and Democrats, folks need to grow up and realize that both parties are serving the same masters. All you have to do is look at the financial/banking mogels in the cabinets of all presidents, since even before Carter. Goldman Sachs is referred to as “Government Sachs.” We foolishly want to believe that “our team” is better than the other. It’s like comparring a bowl of diarrhea to a crap sandwich. You can drink one, or chew the other, but it’s going to be hell going down, either way.

          • http://tlgeer.wordpress.com tlgeer

            “Frankly, his mother was an American citizen, unless she revoked her citizenship and I have no knowledge that that ever happened, then he’s an American citizen. ”

            It doesn’t matter who his parents were, or where they were born. Since Obama was born in Hawaii (and, yes, it has been proven to be true) he is a natural born citizen. His parents could have been beamed down from another planet. It only matters where HE was born.

            “When McCain was running in 2008, he too, was born outside of the USA, in Panama, while his father was stationed there.”

            A person born to US military on foreign land is still considered a natural born citizen.

            “I’m more concerned with his communist upbringing and affilliations”

            Yeah, a lot of people kept trying to say that he had a communist upbringing. The majority of this country looked at those claims and discovered that they were, at the very least, highly exaggerated and made up of “what if”. That doesn’t even come close the the standards of proof.

            “Goldman Sachs is referred to as “Government Sachs.”

            I have never heard this before.

            “All that being said, he’s our president, and presently, the only one we’ve got.”

            Yes, he is. And he was voted in, twice, by the majority of voters. Maybe they saw more clearly than the people who opposed him. It’s very possible.

          • Joe America

            Frank Marshall Davis: Mr. Obama’s childhood mentor:

            http://frontpagemag.com/2012/jamie-glazov/the-communist-frank-marshall-davis-the-untold-story-of-barack-obama%E2%80%99s-mentor/

            http://www.americanthinker.com/2012/10/obama_whos_your_daddy.html

            http://spectator.org/archives/2012/10/12/dreams-from-frank-marshall-dav

            http://www.theblaze.com/contributions/obama%E2%80%99s-purge-why-has-frank-marshall-davis-been-quietly-removed-from-dreams-from-my-father/

            http://www.crisismagazine.com/2012/frank-marshall-davis-obamas-communist-mentor-on-the-catholic-church

            Our liberal press has covered up all of Obama’s communist connections, but not that well. Frank Davis was a friend of Obama’s white grandpa and grandma, who were also communists.

            You don’t want to see this, but it is your right to ignore the truth. Do I blame Obama for his upbringing? No! However, he has been influenced. That being said, it’s what the people want. They want free things, provided by other people. You’re right in there with them. This is your right, your choice. Be careful what you wish for, because when you get it, it might not be as sweet as you thought it was going to be.

            Liberals are do desperate to have a black man as president, that they’d overlooke murder, just so they can tell themselves “Hey, look at me, I’m not a bigot! I voted for a black man.” Americans are desperate to prove to the world that they, indeed, are finally free of bigotry. This zeal has blinded them to the fact that all polititians, regardless of race, color, religion, or creed, must be vetted while running for office. Obama receive a glaring free pass from the press.

            Now, unlike some, I don’t hate the guy. You have to admire the fact that this guy decided, early in his life, that he was going to become the President of the United States, and he made it happen. As he believed, so it happened. There’s a lesson in that.

            I’m able to admire his ability to speak well and his drive, but, at the same time, I have to be concerned about the people that have surrounded him during his developing years, and even now. These folks are indeed, communistic and socialistic in their leanings. Communism and socialism appeals to the bottom feeders of society, because the average person despises anyone who has accomplished anything with their lives.

            If you take 100 men, all born on the same day, only 1-5 will have a dream and accomplish it. The rest will be either average, or, sadly, some, most, will have never amounted to anything. They never developed a dream. It’s these failures that love communism. They have not amounted to anything, worked for anything, or saved money for their old age. They’ve lived day to day, paycheck to paycheck, spent every dime they ever made and they blame the world. Their most favorite thing is to blame the “rich.” This is not billionares or millionares, because these people don’t see them. What they see, and what they hate, is the small business guy or gal to had a dream and made it happen. Or the person who went onto college, and made a successful career. These people are an affront to them, on a daily basis. Bottom feeders dispise anyone who works and succeeds, because it reminds them, daily, of their short comings. The fact that they’ve wasted their lives and are full of regret. However, they will never accept responsibility for their failures. That’s always someone else’s fault. These are the targets of communism. They are the easy recruits. They can have their character bought for a pair of shoes, or a few meals. Their souls are bought on the cheap.

            Ironically, bottom feeders have always been the easy recruits of facists and communists leaders. Take a look at Hitler’s Brown Shirts and Lenin’s Bolshaviks and there you are.

          • Frank Kahn

            Get it straight, tlgeer, it really does matter who his parents are. It also matters on the subject of whether they were citizens. He MIGHT be a citizen of this nation IF he was born in HAWAII, however he is not a NATURAL BORN CITIZEN because of it. I have yet to see any documentation showing his father as a citizen of this country. If his father was a citizen then, Barak H. Obama II might be a NATURAL BORN CITIZEN.

    • Motov

      “The size of the Gov is not the issue, its how well the Gov works.”

      I disagree, anything the government does always becomes bogged down with excessive red tape, becomes totally inefficient, corrupt, and always ends up costing way more than intended. What is worse is these “programs” have a nasty habit of growing like weeds.

      The size of our Government has long past the point of tax payer’s ability to support it. If we apply the Constitution to our Federal Government, you will discover that they have crossed boundaries not permitted by that document. By returning many of these “powers” to the states, We can end their boondoggles, excessive costs, and corruption. Giving back to the private sector, IE,.. turning bureaucrats into non government workers,.. would help increase the tax base and at the same time reduce government expenditures.

      We must end our “World Policeman” mentality, and stop starting wars, and stop our covert activities. We are not good at it.

      • Robert Rashbrooke

        Motov,

        Which Constitution are you referring to, the one of 1776 or the one of 1871?

    • Marty S.

      Hang in there Dave you are headed for a serious reality check. In the mean time you might want to consider preparing a little for the impending financial disaster.

  • http://www.facebook.com/tony.newbill1 Tony Newbill

    The power in this Fiscal Cliff Negotiation is in How you want to use Foreign Aid and how this will RESINATE in the Minds of the American People and How you can make President Obama come to the Table over how these Foreign Aid packages can either Be a Higher Tax on Businesses that also contribute to these Foreign Aid Packages either with Direct Business Relationships or Having to Go Through The Obama Tax the Rich idea that He then wants to redistribute His way !!!

    This is where you can Bring to the American People this case of Do we want to trust Obama to redistribute this Foreign Aid or do we Restructure the Tax code so that Businesses can Use these dollars to Build within their States using this Capital a Competitive Business that Includes Direct Business relations ships in Foreign Countries and these Relationships then Create a Incentive for Foreign Investors to want to Form capital around the Businesses in the US states that want to access markets here in the USA , or Trust Obama with this cash that we see so far is Only Being sent to Radical Regimes that are Power grabbing Democratically elected Governments Like Egypt ????

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_foreign_aid

    • Capitalist at Birth

      Your diatribe about Reagan is totally false and historically incorrect. Did you just come out of a cave?

      • Capitalist at Birth

        That was meant for Dave 67.

      • Dave67

        What was the debt before Reagan and after Reagan?

        Do you know?

        12/31/1981 REAGAN $1,028,729,000,000 10.6% $3,128,400,000,000 32.9%
        12/31/1982 REAGAN $1,197,073,000,000 16.4% $3,255,000,000,000 36.8%
        12/31/1983 REAGAN $1,410,702,000,000 17.8% $3,536,700,000,000 39.9%
        12/31/1984 REAGAN $1,662,966,000,000 17.9% $3,933,200,000,000 42.3%
        12/31/1985 REAGAN $1,945,912,000,000 17.0% $4,220,300,000,000 46.1%
        12/31/1986 REAGAN $2,214,835,000,000 13.8% $4,462,800,000,000 49.6%
        12/31/1987 REAGAN $2,431,715,000,000 9.8% $4,739,500,000,000 51.3%
        12/31/1988 REAGAN $2,684,392,000,000 10.4% $5,103,800,000,000 52.6%

        That is an increase of188.6%

        That is the work of your hero…

        http://hnn.us/articles/53527.html

      • Dave67

        Here is some more for you Capitalist:

        http://www.socialstudieshelp.com/Eco_Deregulation.htm

        There are many people that feel that the government should remove much of the regulations placed on banks and allow them to compete on the open market. Regulations, they feel, destroy the ability of banks to make money, raises costs, lowers interest rates paid to depositors and is not generally not good for the bank or the consumer. This was the belief of the Carter and Reagan Administration’s in the late 70′s and early 80′s. The result of this rather laissez faire approach was a period of deregulation. What is meant by deregulation is the removal of, or lessening of government regulations restricting an industry. Deregulation has effected many industries in recent years, including banking.

        The Reagan Deregulation Program

        •Federal requirements that set maximum interest rates on savings accounts were phased out. This eliminated the advantage previously held by savings banks.
        •Checking accounts could now be offered by any type of bank.
        •All depository institution could now borrow from the fed in time of need, a privilege that had been reserved for commercial banks. In return all banks had to place a certain % of their deposits in the fed. This gave the FED more control and stabilized state banks.
        •Garn – St. Germain Act of 1982 allowed savings banks to now issue credit cards, make non residential real estate loans and commercial loans; actions previously only allowed to commercial banks.
        The Effect of Deregulation – The S&L Crisis

        •Deregulation practically eliminated the distinction between commercial and savings banks.
        •Deregulation caused a rapid growth of savings banks and S&L’s that now made all types of non homeowner related loans. Now that S%L’s could tap into the huge profit centers of commercial real estate investments and credit card issuing many entrepreneurs looked to the loosely regulated S&L’s as a profit making center.
        •As the eighties wore on the economy appeared to grow. Interest rates continued to go up as well as real estate speculation. The real estate market was in what is known as a “boom” mode. Many S&L’s took advantage of the lack of supervision and regulations to make highly speculative investments, in many cases loaning more money then they really should.
        •When the real estate market crashed, and it did so in dramatic fashion, the S&L’s were crushed. They now owned properties that they had paid enormous amounts of money for but weren’t worth a fraction of what they paid. Many went bankrupt, losing their depositors money. This was known as the S&L Crisis.
        •In 1980 the US had 4,600 thrifts, by 1988 mergers and bankruptcies left 3000. By the mid 1990′s less than 2000 survived.
        •The S&L crisis cost about 600 Billion dollars in “bailouts.” This is 1500 dollars from every man woman and child in the US.
        •In summary, the S&L crisis was caused by deregulation which led to high interest rates that then collapsed. Other causes included inadequate capital and defrauding shorthanded government regulatory agencies (less regulators and inspectors).

      • Texas Ride

        Dave67, government needs to stay out of the way and let business fail or go bankrupt on their own.

        Stop government from trying to control everything and everyone. Stop with the picking of “winners and losers!” I don’t want the government investing in the companies owned by their supporters! What a great way for the government to perpetrate fraud on the taxpayers. Where does all that bailout money go and how many kickbacks. I guess it is enough kickbacks to buy a $40 Million dollar estate…and have a lot leftover…

      • eddie47d

        In other words Dave67 they have learned nothing and yet they still bow down to the Speculators who keep causing these crises! Both the Democrats /Liberals and Republicans/Conservatives have their addictions and need to go into rehab but first they have to admit they have a problem.

      • Dave67

        Without the Gov, Texas… The internet doesn’t get created… How many billions have been made by private enterprise using a Gov funded entity? So you nonsense fails the reality test.

        In our society… Gov has a role to play as does business.

        Winners and losers? So when the Gov picks Gen Dynamics for the latest military contract… What is that? Picking a winner and loser.

        Talking points are just wonderful aren’t they?

      • Dave67

        Patty,

        I did not say “invent”. I said “funded”. The Gov worked with universities, the military and other private institutions to create what we call the internet. They play a major role in getting it funded. There was no money in the endevor initially so that is where the Gov came in.

        • Patty

          Actually, they (gov’t.) were funding other projects and the computer bit-heads worked on their own projects (internet). The bit-heads didn’t like the gov’t. project for various reasons (While groundwork for the ARPANET was being laid, few outside the technical groups had much enthusiasm for the project. Many were skeptical about packet-switching. The project also struggled with “a feeling that with the government involved it would be five years late and nothing would work.”9 Only after a successful demonstration at a 1972 computer conference did much enthusiasm appear. (ARPANET was not the only government-funded networking experiment during the 1960s and 1970s. The French, German, British, and Japanese governments also funded network development. None was particularly successful and none produced anything like the Internet. American technical superiority doesn’t explain the success of ARPANET; other Defense Department networking efforts failed miserably.10) so, while they were working on the gov’t. project, they on the side came up with the “internet”. In short, in spite of the gov’t., they managed to invent something successful. http://www.fee.org/the_freeman/detail/does-the-internet-prove-the-need-for-government-investment#axzz2E0gLfReU

      • DaveH

        Dave67 in typical equivocating Liberal Progressive fashion uses percentages to deceive people.
        Let’s instead look at the raw numbers:
        National Debt when Reagan took office — $.930 Trillion.
        National Debt when Reagan left office — $2.684 Trillion.
        That was a gain of $1.754 Trillion in the National Debt over 8 years.

        National Debt when Obama took office — $10.700 Trillion.
        National Debt currently — $16.208 Trillion.
        That was a gain of $5.508 Trillion in the National Debt in less than 4 years.

        Is there really any contest?

      • DaveH

        Dave67 would like you to believe there’s been deregulation when in fact old regulations were just replaced with different regulations.
        Read this report to grasp the reality of that so-called “deregulation” that Liberal Progressives love to tout:
        http://www.scribd.com/doc/93023823/Wayne-Crews-10-000-Commandments-2012

      • Dave67

        Here is DaveH playing with numbers… which is dangerous for him.

        Let’s instead look at the raw numbers:

        National Debt when Reagan took office — $.930 Trillion.
        National Debt when Reagan left office — $2.684 Trillion.
        That was a gain of $1.754 Trillion in the National Debt over 8 years.

        That is a 188% increase in the debt under his hero and savior.

        National Debt when Obama took office — $10.700 Trillion.
        National Debt currently — $16.208 Trillion.
        That was a gain of $5.508 Trillion in the National Debt in less than 4 years.

        That is a 51% increase in the debt with 2 wars, tax cuts and the largest recession since the depression during the whole of Obama’s term

        Is there really any contest? (No DaveH, there really isn’t any contest)

        • Patty

          #1 you are comparing 8 years to 4, his projected deficit after 8 years is over 20 trillion, those Bush tax cuts are now Obama tax cuts, they expired and he signed them up again so they belong to him now no matter how you may want to deny that fact. And a large part of that recession was due to Clinton policies and everyone should be able to own a home which resulted in deregulating banks (come up with a mortgage product or the IRS will put a microscope up your banks butt-hello sub prime) well, hello housing bubble!

        • Patty

          You are also comparing a robust economy to one that has been on the skids for 6-8 years. Geez, I guess since my income is going down, I will go more into debt than curtail my spending….

      • Dave67

        Patty,

        Cause and effect… Reagan and Clinton were short term gain, long term loss with regards to the banks and housing. You can throw taxes and trade into the mix as well.

        Reagan started us down a bad road. Last I checked, The GOP had the US House of Representatives starting in 2010. So apparently all the damage was done by Obama from 2009-2010 even though conservatives can’t point to specifics outside of the HC law that hasn’t even gone into effect yet.

        What did the GOP threaten in 2010 if the tax cuts were not extended for the wealthy? They threatened to end unemployment insurance.

        http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Politics/2010/1201/Unemployment-benefits-not-until-Bush-tax-cuts-pass-Senate-GOP-says

      • Leaving South Carolina

        Dave67 says that Reagan spent to much and that is true but look what he got for it, the fall of the Soviet Union and a free East German. Obama has already spent more than twice as much and what has he gotten for it. The Mid-East is in flames, the terrorists (the Muslim Brotherhood, Hamas, Al-Qaida and more) are gaining power. It seems to some that in the president’s mind saying something is the same as doing it. Obama has already spent almost three times as much as Reagan and there is no end in sight. Many of those who elected our current president are all for more spending but we are all going to pay the price for their greed, avarice, and immorality with more than 200% inflation for food and fuel and things we actually use and need.

        Sadly the progressives who think Karl Marx is a hero of some kind and that socialism is good instead of the freedom crushing evil it really is, well they are anti-gun, anti-Bible, anti-God (they want gods to be equal??? There is only one God, the nameless one who said, “I am that I am”). They are also anti-Constitution, anti-freedom, anti-abortion, and on and on. They claim they are for the little guy but in all the major cities that are in the worse shape in this nation, they have all been run by Democrats for 50 years or more.

        The Republicans are not angels but the Progressives are more likely to destroy the nation than the those who care about a sound dollar and a balanced budget (of course that would be more likely the Tea Party than the regular Republicans). From Y2K to 2008 some 200,000 a year (some estimates are as high as 300,000 once the Democrats took over Congress in 2006) left the United States for places all over the globe, but since the current administration took over in 2009, some 3,000,000 a year have been leaving. Now I can’t tell you why they are leaving but prior to Democrats taking over Congress in 2006 I interviewed some of them and six out of seven were leaving because of what they felt was the deteriorating economy. The others felt that the morality of the country was on a fast downhill slope and that it would get worse. Unfortunately I believe they are right and as I have said many times the economic problems that are coming will make the Great Depression look like a walk in the park. May God help us all, the government will not be able to do so when our out-of-control spending finally catches up with us as it is beginning to do. Dum Spiro Spero!

      • Texas Ride

        Dave67, government is a bloated monstrosity that wants to tell us what kind of food to eat and what kind of light blubs to buy (buy the curly ones from their buddies at GE. GE needs the money so maybe THEY can start paying some taxes one of these days.)

        Government needs to be down-sized and its power redistributed back to the States! Your high regard for government is misplaced! Government does nothing but causes problems. it builds nothing, it produces nothing, and it does not contribute to the economy. Government can’t even provide security for an ambassador or keep Navy Seals from being annilated (in accidents.) What good is it except to spend and giveaway the money it confiscates from those people that are still producing!!! Without government mandates, agencies, regulations, and interference, this country would once again be prosperous. Wealth and prosperity in the country begets more wealth and prosperity and that is why there is a war against the producers. You can spout all your meaningless blatherings about Capitalism, but you enjoy living here and you enjoy everything that Capitalism has to offer.

      • DaveH

        As I said, Dave67 is using percentages to equivocate the situation.
        So, let me play Dave67 for a moment (yuck):
        Reagan increased the National Debt by $1.754 Trillion in 8 years.
        Obama increased the National Debt by $5.508 Trillion in just 4 years.
        So if we prorate that over 8 years, Obama will have increased the National Debt by $11.016 Trillion in 8 years. That is a 628% greater growth of debt under Obama than under Reagan.

        Give it up, Dave67. You’re clueless and devious.

    • Jimmy the Greek

      We don’t need to be doing anything for other countrys ! We need to look out for our selfs !

    • Dave67

      Really SC?

      LOL… Ok… So Reagan buys a Ferrari and you declare bankruptcy because you don’t even try to afford the same car. That is your argument there… Nothing about:

      1) the fundamental flaw in the soviet economic model
      2) the policy of containment that Truman and Eisenhower started and that every president followed.

      “Obama has already spent more than twice as much and what has he gotten for it. The Mid-East is in flames, the terrorists (the Muslim Brotherhood, Hamas, Al-Qaida and more) are gaining power.”

      This is what happens when you get your info from Fox. I know this is hard for conservatives to understand by other countries have the right of self-determination. Obama has done a far better job on terrorists that Reagan, Bush 1, Clinton and Bush 2 have combined.

      Then he goes on to rail against Progressives when for the past 30 years, conservatives and their policies are the ones that have held sway in this country. I am just thankful those policies that have led us down the dark path are starting to go away.

  • daves

    I have been hearing this same dire warning for over 5 years. When is it going top happen? So far the warnings have been “next spring” or “by the end of the year”. None have come true yet.

    • johno

      I agree. Some entity up there has things under control. It may not turn out as we like in the long run but there’s not a damn thing we can do about it. This entity won’t let the big crash happen as they might lose control. This thing is just going to keep slowly eroding but the big crash won’t happen.

    • Bob

      Go back to sleep, Daves. No, wait, you already are asleep.!!

    • Flashy

      Dave…it’ll happen right after Pres. Obama declares martial law, confiscates all guns, and turns us into a country controlled by the UN …

      • Jimmy the Greek

        When that day comes , that well be a good day for dieing ! As long as we take them down with us . A good book you all should read is The Turner Diaries , we may be there sooner than you think !

      • http://tlgeer.wordpress.com tlgeer

        IOW, never.

        • Joe America

          The pressure to ratify the Small Arms Treaty in the UN will never end, until the NWO has our guns. Republicans are in trouble and, as more and more Americans go onto the government dole, their power will sunset. And, thanks to their efforts to cooperate with the DNC to keep a two party only system, there will be no other party left to represent the people. I was encouraged that Libertarians acturally garnered 1% of the vote, qualifying them for federal election funding. But, they will never reach a votership that has become government dependent. Before long, it’s going to be a one party system. With that kind of power and support, eventually, the UN Small Arms Treaty will be ratified by Congress. The NWO is well organized and they will get their way. Sometimes, when I see the sheeple drooling along, mesmerized by TV, Hollywood and Lindsay Lohan, I think to myself, maybe these NWO guys have it right. Afterall, they want to get rid of 90% of us. Maybe flushing the toilet would improve humanity’s stock? Well, get used to that idea, because that’s what they have in mind, and that’s what’s going to happen. Maybe they’ll start really making Soilent Green. “It’s people!”

    • eddie47d

      So when is Bob going to wake up for he seems to be in his own stupor with his reply to Daves. We could see a more serious crises looming and no one should be naive that it won’t happen someday. Yet too many Conservatives are creating their own mental crises by yelling the sky is falling and turning the screw in deeper. If you want things to fail then they will especially if that is your stated goal. (McConnell for one)

    • DaveH

      Who have you heard it from, daves? Certainly not this website, since it is less than 4 years old.

  • Right Brain Thinker

    Bob is back! Fear-mongering again and prepping folks for more pitches on PLD for buying gold and silver, survival kits and info, newsletters, etc. Bob may even be right on what horrible things are lurking down the road—we shall see. Of course, rather than encouraging folks to do things to improve the functioning of our government and perhaps stave off disaster, he instead stokes paranoia among those who would destroy the country. Understandable, since he makes his bucks off that—-just taking advantage of the “free market” syatem, Bob is.

    He even puts some facts in amongst his opinions, although he doesn’t tell you that his facts don’t always support his opinions (or more correctly, contradict what he is implying is the significance of his facts). Bob joins the many others who always cite the correct figures about tax RATES, but conveniently ignore TOTAL TAX BURDEN. Bob cites:

    “According to Internal Revenue Service data…..those making more than $200 million pay an 18 percent tax rate on their adjusted gross income……Those making less than $30,000 paid no Federal taxes after deductions and credits”.

    When one looks at TOTAL TAX BURDEN—-the combined total of federal and state income taxes, payroll taxes, sales tax, local property tax, gasoline tax, excise taxes, taxes on phone bills, etc., the true picture becomes more clear. I have cited these figures before on PLD, as have GALT and others.

    Total TAX BURDEN on the bottom 80% averages around 18%.
    Total TAX BURDEN on the top 20% averages around 30+%
    Total TAX BURDEN on the top 1% actually DROPS a bit to around 29%.

    Since the impact of all those other taxes is negligible on the filthy rich, the 18% they pay in FEDERAL tax is almost identical to what the 80% pay in TOTAL taxes. In other words, there is little difference between the guy making $50K and the guy making $200,000K. Except that the greedy rich guy has a lot of $$$$ left over to :invest” while the average Joe is spending nearly all of his just to survive.

    Hypocrisy lives

    • DaveH
      • Right Brain Thinker

        Yeah, Dave, and I think I may have cited it one of the other times I posted it. I’m going to bail for a while and go do “real life”. I think it was among the data that GALT also cited from the “Who Rules America” site. You really ought to go look at that stuff—it’s all from the IRS, BLS, Census, CBO, and other good sources—the same ones the conservatives will mine for data to support their insupportable views on taxes and wealth and income inequality.

      • DaveH

        I’m not talking about some vague reference to a book in the library or some obscure article in a magazine that no reader will ever bother looking up. I’m talking about a link to information so the reader can see immediately if you are blowing smoke up their b___s or what. You know, Dave67, provide references, like I do — Like you try to disparage me for doing.
        Please keep posting though, Dave67, because the intelligent readers will do their research and find that you are just a useless Liberal Progressive while I am leading them to knowledge. The Unintelligent ones? Well, they will just have to remain ignorant like you and the rest of your Liberal Progressive shills want them to be.

      • DaveH

        That should have been RBT not Dave67. They’re so much alike, I mix them up when I’m away from their comments where I can’t see their names.

      • Right Brain Thinker

        I’m not talking about some vague reference to a book in the library or some obscure article in a magazine that no reader will ever bother looking up either. That’s your thing.
        If one googles the title of the website that I provided, one will get a “hit” that leads there. I have it on my favorites list in the browser, so I don’t have to do that.

        You know what a “favorites” list is, Dave? It’s that list of 3 things you have—-you know, Mises, horsepucky, and ad hominems?

        I’m talking about a link to a website with large quantities of data that the reader will have to spend some time reading in order to gain the knowledge contained there. You on the other hand, specialize in horsepucky “the reader can see immediately”. Thank goodness for that—-saves us all time.

        Oh, and about that “That should have been RBT not Dave67″ you’ve done that twice today—-are you that frenzied that you can’t tell us apart?

    • DaveH

      The irony of the Liberal Progressives invoking the Politics of Envy is that most of the wealth of the super rich is tied up in Capital Equipment and Property. With those Capital Machines they cheaply and efficiently create goods and services. When Government taxes their money away, the money that would have been spent on those Capital Machines and Property is instead consumed by Government. So the Productivity goes down, and the quantity and quality of the goods created goes down, as well as the number of jobs. That results in the rest of us paying more money and suffering less quality for the products we buy. Thus the saying that Companies don’t pay Taxes, Their consumers do.
      Now, for sure, there are Crony Capitalists who use Political means to stifle their competitors, and that is wrong and costly for the rest of us. But the answer to that is to get Government out of our Marketplaces so that the Consumers can pick the winners and losers instead of the Politicians picking them.
      http://mises.org/daily/5277/When-Capital-Is-Nowhere-in-View

  • JAS

    Funny how that pesky thing called prophecy in the Bible is being fulfilled more and more every day.
    There are no flourishing economies anywhere. hello – one world economy.
    Social unrest in every portion of the world – hello – anti-christ
    The world coming against Israel – hello apocalypse.

    Yes I know, I’m just one of those crazy born again Christian zealots.

    • Dean Brandt

      I’m with you brother. Come quickly Lord Jesus!

    • Flashy

      JAS..exactly …’just’ is an appropriate level. As in Insignificant and not relevant to the conversation ……

    • Jimmy the Greek

      You all need to leave the bible in the church , reading it to much well make you crazy ,

      • http://wildeyguns.com The Christian American

        Reading the bible is the source of wisdom. What do you think about America, since we quit reading the bible?

      • Jimmy the Greek

        I have no problem with reading the bible and well fight for your right to do so , However government should be free from religion , when it comes to running the country .

    • eddie47d

      Its wonderful that you love the Lord Jesus yet there are many other signs in the Bible that have to come to pass. What you say JAS isn’t necessarily a part of that scenario. There are prosperous countries such as Sweden,Singapore (maybe Hong Kong), Norway,Dubai,Switzerland and a few others. Even the USA and China are considered prosperous countries. The world has always known social unrest including the time of Jesus so that doesn’t prove a thing except that humans are selfish and greedy and will take by way of conflict. I don’t like to see Israel picked on by anyone but aren’t they stirring the pot by continually building on the West Bank and drawing attention to themselves ?

  • Capitalist at Birth

    Bob, Great article. I doubt if the Totalitarian Socialists will believe that what you are predicting will eventually happen. Just as they doubted my prediction of a coming housing bubble bust in 1999. Oh well. It is really sad that ill informed people are allowed to vote.

    • Right Brain Thinker

      Hey, Cap! Could you clarify things a bit? Did you predict 1n 1999 that the housing bubble (that hadn’t yet begun) would burst several years later? Or did you predict sometime before 1999 that the dot.com bubble would burst in 1999? Lack of clarity in presenting information leads to people being “ill informed”, and Faux News has the monopoly on that so you shouldn’t try to compete with them.

    • Elda

      Not only ill informed, but those that never pay a dime in taxes that vote for more government hand outs. It seems common sense to only let those that pay into the pot, decide how it is spent. We the people have allowed elected representatives buy with our money their votes through people that have no morals, taking money from the government they don’t deserve and voting for more of the same by sometimes voting more than once or simply changing those votes cast in the wrong direction for them. Only people that pay income tax should vote or the system should be changed to not pay income tax only sales tax so EVERYONE pays their fair share……even illegals.

      • eddie47d

        As I stated earlier Elda their are those at the top of our economic chain that also don’t have any morals. There are also a few of them who don’t pay any taxes through generous loopholes. Hmmm! Maybe they shouldn’t be allowed to vote either.

    • Steve E

      Capitalist at Birth, I don’t want people to know what is going to happen because if they did, the price of food and precious metal would skyrocket before I get a chance to buy some more in the near future to better prepare. It’s good that I can say things that people don’t believe because at least I can say “I told you so”, but I don’t want them to believe me now because it is not in my best interest now for them to believe me.

  • roger

    a wealth of information to be found here. learn something and ask questions of those money-grubbing trolls in D.C.
    LIARS, each and every one of them……

    http://www.tax-freedom.com/

  • Howard Roark

    Dave 67 says that taxation is not theft. I hate to be the one to break his bubble but when taxation is used for redistribution of wealth then it is theft. as clearly ruled by the US Supreme Court in Loan Association v. Topeka The Court Ruled that “To lay with one hand the power of Government on the property of the citizen, and with the other bestow it on favored individuals…is nonetheless ROBBERY because it is done under the form of law and is called taxation.” The Court again in US v. Butler ruled that the Constitution has never been understood to mean that that the Government can take from one citizen and give to another. This in spite of Obummers statement that SCOTUS has never addressed the concept of the redistribution of wealth.

    • Right Brain Thinker

      Nice job, Howard. Reaching back to the 1870′s and the New Deal for a couple of obscure cases that are meaningless in modern context and don’t really make your point.

      More importantly, you have used OBUMMER to describe the duly elected (twice now) president of the United States. We can forgive you when you play with the truth by citing Loan Association vs. Topeka, but not when you use disrespectful, childish, and ignorant names for President (#43 and #44) Barry H. O’Bama. Grow up.

      • DaveH

        Ahh yes, the typical ad hominem attacks in lieu of facts that we have come to expect from the Liberal Progressives.

      • roger

        unless the case has been overturned, there is nothing obscure about a supreme court case. no matter how old it is…….

      • Right Brain Thinker

        That’s true, Roger. We would have to look at a lot of cases to see how often this decision was cited as a precedent in other situations.

        And DaveH? Grow up! The “junk yard dog nipping at the heels” routine is getting old

      • Flashy

        Roger..Butler was cited, and Butler was not overturned, but within a year was made without value except for space filler. Butler held that crop subsidies combined with crop restrictions was an overreach of the federal government and was a state power … the SCOTUS did not see how interstate commerce was involved. less than a year later, while not overturning Butler, the SCOTUS distinguished it narrowly and pretty much valueless. As you know, crop restrictions and subsidies are pretty much the basic foundation of our Ag programs these days.

        As for Topeka, all Topeka held was that if a government entity was to incur a debt, there had to be specified how it was to be paid for. For the most part, all that was cut and pasted was taken wayyyyy our of context and had no bearing or weight on the ruling. Mind…Topeka was ruled on in the 1870′s…before the adoption of the Amendment allowing income taxation…

        I do wish if someone were going to cite a SCOTUS case, read them first.

      • DaveH

        The Supreme Court is a part of the Federal Government. They rarely rule against Federal Government laws. There is nowhere in the Constitution where the Supreme Court was given the right to be the Final Arbiter of Constitutionality (for obvious reasons). They just took that right in the early 1800s, and the uninformed citizens let get away with it.
        The Supreme Court justices are unelected officials with life tenures. Isn’t it odd that the Liberal Progressives would stick up for them? The same Liberal Progressives who all the time are trying to tell you that this is a Democracy?
        Let’s face it, Folks, the Liberal Progressive Leaders (and their shills) are just making Fools out of the rest of us, including the Liberal Progressive Followers.

    • eddie47d

      Yes and No Howard and that is fairly simply. If the government imposes a tax without the vote of Congress or the vote of the people (depending on the case) then that would be theft. If we vote in anyone who approves tax increases then we ourselves approved that increase and then it wouldn’t be theft. Doesn’t mean you have to like it but it is not theft.

  • JUKEBOX

    With all of this talk of hyperinflation, those thousands of Iraqi Dinars I have been holding are starting to look more attractive.

    • Right Brain Thinker

      Only if they are in the form of gold and silver coins. Ask Bob for advice there.

  • DaveH

    They work non-stop in their efforts to take away our Property and our Freedom:
    http://gunowners.org/a11152012.htm

    • Newspooner

      You are correct. And perhaps even worse, there are thousands of them who are paid from our money to do precisely that while we have to use what’s left of our money to try fighting back. Gut the US out of the UN, and get the UN out of the US. Otherwise, all liberty will be lost.

      • Right Brain Thinker

        DaveH and Spooner,

        It would be easier to follow you both if “they, them, we, and our” were better defined.

        And DaveH—-you made a half-way intelligent (even if unsupported and vague) comment here. If you really want to talk today, how about leaving the “ad hominems” in the closet when you reply?

    • DaveH

      And there you have it, Folks, the typical Liberal Progressive comment.
      Thank you, RBT, for giving folks yet another example of what they’re in for if they are foolish enough to allow any more Power to your kind.

      • JeffH

        I think it only appropriate to post this in order to identify some of the possible “sponsored trolls” like RBT, FALSY, GALT, DAVE67, and a few others, etc, etc…

        CIA-Sponsored Trolls Monitor Internet & Interact With Users to Discredit Factual Information
        http://occupycorporatism.com/cia-sponsored-trolls-monitor-internet-interact-with-users-to-discredit-factual-information/

        “According to Lynnae Williams, former CIA clandestine service trainee and DIA analyst, the FBI and CIA use trolls to monitor social media and interact with users to discredit information disseminated on the web. Williams explains that the CIA provides training videos to new recruits on how to troll the internet. Once a target is locked-in, all open source information is obtained on the individual, and then any angle to discredit them in public forum is used on social media sites.

        Software is used to sift through the “mountains” of users on social networking sites. At the Atlanta CIA branch where Williams was trained, she personally witnessed CIA-sponsored and sanctioned trolling of Americans on social networking sites.”

      • Right Brain Thinker

        That’s it—another thread with the potential for some good discussion and even some fun has gone down the tubes with JeffH’s arrival. For those of you who don’t know, DaveH and JeffH are actually the same person (he has multiple personalities). He/they accounted for fully TWENTY-SEVEN PERCENT OF THE 586 (FIVE HUNDRED EIGHTY-SIX) POSTS on another PLD thread—-all by himself/themselves. You can now expect him/them to clog this thread with inanities. Enjoy. I’ll check in only periodically.

        JeffH cites an article for us and then blabs on about “social networking sites”, never once recognizing that the article is referring to facebook and twitter and not to “unsocial” sites like PLD, and is therefore not terribly relevant to us. The best line in the whole article is: “Agents not only survey the internet and interact as anonymous persons through directed postings, but also are deployed to wander through the streets….”

        JeffH is eminently qualified to “wander through the streets”, both actual streets and the metaphorical empty ones in his mind. Go get a job with these folks, Jeff. Then maybe you can start paying rent to your parents, who have so graciously allowed you to live in their basement and raid their refrigerator (but, we pray, have not let you drive the car).

      • JeffH

        RBT and D^&, if you walk like a troll and talk like a troll…then you are a troll…and quite possiblt paid to troll.
        The shoe fits you both so well, wear it with pride.
        While the anonymity of the internet allows for a certain immunity against many of Saul Alinsky’s manipulative tactics, it also allows governments to attack those trying to spread the truth covertly. In the world of web news, we call these people “disinfo trolls.” Trolls are now being openly employed by governments in countries like the U.S. and Israel specifically to scour the internet for alternative news sites and disrupt their ability to share information.

        http://www.rawstory.com/news/2006/Ra…gers_1016.html

        http://www.thenational.ae/article/20…882042198/1002

        http://www.atlanticfreepress.com/new…-unveiled.html

        Internet trolls, also known as “paid posters” or “paid bloggers,” are increasingly being employed by private corporations as well, often for marketing purposes. In fact, it is a rapidly growing industry.

        Trolls use a wide variety of strategies, some of which are unique to the internet, here are just a few:

        1) Make outrageous comments designed to distract or frustrate: An Alinsky tactic used to make people emotional, although less effective because of the impersonal nature of the web.

        2) Pose as a supporter of the truth, then make comments that discredit the movement: We have seen this even on our own forums — trolls pose as supporters of the Liberty Movement, then post long, incoherent diatribes so as to appear either racist or insane. Here is a live example of this tactic in use on Yahoo! Answers.

        The key to this tactic is to make references to common Liberty Movement arguments while at the same time babbling nonsense, so as to make those otherwise valid arguments seem ludicrous by association.

        In extreme cases, these “Trojan Horse Trolls” have been known to make posts which incite violence — a technique obviously intended to solidify the false assertions of the notorious MIAC report and other ADL/SPLC publications which purport that constitutionalists should be feared as potential domestic terrorists.

        3) Dominate Discussions: Trolls often interject themselves into productive web discussions in order to throw them off course and frustrate the people involved.

        4) Prewritten Responses: Many trolls are supplied with a list or database with pre-planned talking points designed as generalized and deceptive responses to honest arguments. 9/11 “debunker” trolls are notorious for this.

        5) False Association: This works hand in hand with item #2, by invoking the stereotypes established by the “Trojan Horse Troll.”

        For example: calling those against the Federal Reserve “conspiracy theorists” or “lunatics”. Deliberately associating anti-globalist movements with big foot or alien enthusiasts, because of the inherent negative connotations. Using false associations to provoke biases and dissuade people from examining the evidence objectively.

        6) False Moderation: Pretending to be the “voice of reason” in an argument with obvious and defined sides in an attempt to move people away from what is clearly true into a “grey area” where the truth becomes “relative.”

        7) Straw Man Arguments: A very common technique. The troll will accuse his opposition of subscribing to a certain point of view, even if he does not, and then attacks that point of view. Or, the troll will put words in the mouth of his opposition, and then rebut those specific words. For example: “9/11 truthers say that no planes hit the WTC towers, and that it was all just computer animation. What are they, crazy?”

        Sometimes, these strategies are used by average people with serious personality issues. However, if you see someone using these tactics often, or using many of them at the same time, you may be dealing with a paid internet troll.

      • JeffH

        Government Disinformation Methods

        Governments, and the globalists who back them, have immense assets — an almost endless fiat money printing press — and control over most legal and academic institutions. With these advantages, disinformation can be executed on a massive scale. Here are just a handful of the most prominent tactics used by government agencies and private think tanks to guide public opinion, and establish the appearance of consensus:

        1) Control The Experts: Most Americans are taught from kindergarten to ignore their instincts for the truth and defer to the “professional class” for all their answers. The problem is that much of the professional class is indoctrinated throughout their college years, many of them molded to support the status quo. Any experts that go against the grain are ostracized by their peers.

        2) Control The Data: By controlling the source data of any investigation, be it legal or scientific, the government has the ability to engineer any truth they wish, that is, as long as the people do not care enough to ask for the source data. Two major examples of controlled and hidden source data include; the NIST investigation of the suspicious 9/11 WTC collapses, in which NIST engineers, hired by the government, have kept all source data from their computer models secret, while claiming that the computer models prove the collapses were “natural”. Also, the recent exposure of the CRU Climate Labs and their manipulation of source data in order to fool the public into believing that Global Warming is real, and accepting a world-wide carbon tax. The CRU has refused to release the source data from its experiments for years, and now we know why.

        3) Skew The Statistics: This tactic is extremely evident in the Labor Department’s evaluations on unemployment, using such tricks as incorporating ambiguous birth / death ratios into their calculation in order to make it appear as though there are less unemployed people than there really are, or leaving out certain subsections of the population, like those who are unemployed and no longer seeking benefits.

        3) Guilt By False Association: Governments faced with an effective opponent will always attempt to demonize that person or group in the eyes of the public. This is often done by associating them with a group or idea that the public already hates. Example: During the last election, they tried to associate Ron Paul supporters with racist groups (and more recently, certain Fox News anchors) in order to deter moderate Democrats from taking an honest look at Congressman Paul’s policies.

        4) Manufacture Good News: This falls in with the skewing of statistics, and it also relies heavily on Media cooperation. The economic “Green Shoots” concept is a good example of the combination of government and corporate media interests in order to create an atmosphere of false optimism based on dubious foundations.

        5) Controlled Opposition: Men in positions of power have known for centuries the importance of controlled opposition. If a movement rises in opposition to one’s authority, one must usurp that movement’s leadership. If no such movement exists to infiltrate, the establishment will often create a toothless one, in order to fill that social need, and neutralize individuals who might have otherwise taken action themselves.
        source – Neithercorp.us

      • Flashy

        Ahhh…now I’m an FBI or CIA employee instead of a paid employee of the Obama re-election campaign, the Socialist party, or a left wing blogger group.. OK..got it. Let me know if my role changes again in the future… hard to keep up with who i send my bill to these days …

      • DaveH

        Dave67 says — “For those of you who don’t know, DaveH and JeffH are actually the same person (he has multiple personalities)”.
        And your evidence for that is what, Dave67? I mean other than you being a parrot who falsely repeats my true accusations about Flashman?
        I can prove that Flashman either has multiple personalities or has shared the same computer with 7 other personalities. Can you supply equal proof, Dave67? Of course you can’t. You’re just the typical Liberal Progressive Liar.
        http://personalliberty.com/2011/05/16/what-now/#comment-341969

        Pay attention, Folks. These sick people want to control every aspect of your life.

      • JeffH

        Falsy, you’ve admitted that you are paid to be here…any of those you mentioned fall under the same umbrella.

        As you so often like to say “Sheesh”!

      • JeffH

        RBT says ” DaveH and JeffH are actually the same person (he has multiple personalities). He/they accounted for fully TWENTY-SEVEN PERCENT OF THE 586 (FIVE HUNDRED EIGHTY-SIX) POSTS on another PLD thread—-all by himself/themselves. You can now expect him/them to clog this thread with inanities.”

        Amazing conclusion RBT. Are hearing footsteps in your sleep too? They’re coing to take you away, ha, ha!

        Perhaps you would do better to ask some of your fellow progressives that have been on this website far longer than you if they believe DaveH and JeffH are one in the same…ROFLMAO!

        Clog this thread with nanities? I doubt very seriously that either of us could even begin to compete with RBT, D67, GALT or Falsy’s inane and sometimes angry comments…but you still gotta earn your pay.

      • Right Brain Thinker

        I read JeffH’s 3:03 PM comment in amazement. He has described himself and his “other, Dave H, in great detail. I wonder why he has exposed himself to us like this? To see if anyone is paying attention to him/them? I tend to skip over their short messages because they contain nothing of value but DO look at some of the longer ones just in case they have found a diamond amongst the horsepucky they wallow in. This message is a “Manual on How to Be a DavaH/JeffH”. Maybe he/they really feel bad about being trolls and are trying to send us a message that they only do it for the money? That they would rather be known as rational but that doesn’t pay? Poopy world they live in if they must make such choices.

      • Right Brain Thinker

        For the record, this is wrong: “Dave67 says — “For those of you who don’t know, DaveH and JeffH are actually the same person (he has multiple personalities)”.

        Dave67 may THINK this but he didn’t say it. IT WAS ME, RBT!

        I know it’s difficult to keep things straight when you are spinning madly so that you can spew horsepucky in all directions, but you need to pay better attention. That D^& was a bit confusing too.

    • roger

      let them try to take mine.

  • SarahR

    Do we not have one more chance? The electoral college has yet to vote and will vote on Dec17. There is still time to contact your red states and demand that they refuse to participate in the process. Romney carried 24 states. We need to have conservative activists from all over to contact the electors, the Repub party and the secretary of state in all of these states and tell them not to participate in the vote when it meets on Dec17. If there is no vote then the House of Representatives chooses the president. Is this a viable option?

    • Elda

      Except that you would be expecting them to show courage and that is not something this country has when it comes to government. All those people would have to stay home and that would take courage. I have talked to many about this but the other thing I hear and it does give me hope is that God wants Obama to be president right now and we don’t want to force His hand. Bad people must be allowed to do bad things and I am one of those that believe God is really the one in control and I am quite at peace that Obama is being allowed to teach us another lesson of what not to do.

    • Right Brain Thinker

      (No)

      • Right Brain Thinker

        Sorry—-that (no) was in reply to Sarah, not Elda.

        I agree with Elda’s pointing out that bad people must be allowed to do bad things so that they can continue to lose elections—-the Repugs pushing us over the cliff will be a wonderful lesson in what not to do.

        Works for me if the sore losers want to rationalize why O’Bama won rather than face the truth.

        I would change the wording just a bit, however, and state it thusly: “It does give me hope is that God wants O’Bama to be president right now. Good people must be allowed to do good things and I am one of those that believe that Christian principles should prevail. I am quite at peace that O’Bama is being allowed to teach us another lesson of what to do to ensure the greater good of all”.

  • Flashy

    Mr. Livingston, it is not a usual article of yours that is as jaw dropping as this was. While most of your articles have a basis for ‘maybe it could”, this one is so detached from the reality of the next three years as to be bereft of any ability to agree in re; the economic forecast.

    Second, there are no solutions suggested…leaving the uninformed and less capable of thought contingent of readers little to instruct their reps other than negative. you don’t give options..no instructions as to the ‘ voting public’s’ desires. Saying “vote no” ain’t gonna cut it this time around. Without doing anything, saying ‘no’ guarantees one thing…absolutely guarantees…recession and flirting with a downward fiscal spiral. you desire to see our economic forecast come true? If Congress doesn’t act and sequestration hits…I’d say you have a fair to middlin’ chance to see your forecast come true. If only because the real Makers and job creators, the Middle Class consumer..will have their confidence levels fall.

    Third…the forecast you put forth is one built on numbers which one may only presume are pulled from thin air. thin air such as from the upper reaches of the thermosphere air. One can only surmise your source for this economic data is from the same which Root used when he forecast a Romney win, not once but twice a “landslide” prediction.

    As the GOP scrambling to save face continues, and the games of politics are played out in DC, by year end we’ll have the extension of the Middle Class tax rates with the bump in the Upper tax rates. We’ll also have spending cuts. Precise, targeted and surgical. Exactly what is called for at this time. Such is reality…unless the TP/Libertarian contingent in Congress somehow wins their way and we fall off into economic malaise and chaos.

    Reality is Mr. Livingston, production is up, manufacturing is a solid base, efficiency is up, and credit lines are available and becoming even more so. We spent the first 1 1/2 years of this presidency staunching the bleeding of the GOP Great Recession, we spent that time as well setting the battle lines to halt the massive redistribution of wealth from the Makers and Job Creators (Middle Class … the working man) to the Welfare for the Wealthy programs put in place and that has been ongoing since 1981. And we have seen the modernization and computerization of our businesses. The final stage, the one we are on the verge of springing to, is jobs.

    Jobs. Listen. Hear it? That roar fast approaching ? The one portending a large increase in employment? We hear almost daily now about the grumblings of our workforce. More hours, less labor rights, inadequate compensation, too much for one to handle without burnout. The stress and demand for more labor in the workforce is there and growing.

    Look over the future economic patterns shaping up globally and you will realize the fears of hyperinflation are out of touch with the 21st century reality we are now in. yes…in the “old days’, the days before the global connections in fiscal and trade management, the monetary growth would be a huge concern and portending likely hyperinflation. today? not so much.

    When the world’s largest economy selected the policies which the TP/Libertarian movements insisted we follow in 2008-09 (and rightfully rejected), the results were predictable AND were known. The European Union is now experiencing Japan’s Lost Decade. Stagnation. China is facing the elephant in the bedroom and in the next five years will become more and more headline news as its economy falters being forced to deal with 21st century issues so long delayed and artificially suppressed.

    Due to halting the path to the economic abyss, rebuilding and modernizing, changing industry R&D and movement from the old ways to the new industry markets and ways of production and business has set the US up for taking full advantage of being the lone source of economic power for at least a decade. As long as the US maintains a reasonable and sane path in three critical areas

    = maintaining the programs (and ceasing others) to foster wealth equity in our society where the Middle Class regains it’s former strong position
    = More attention to rebuilding our infrastructure
    = Emphasizing education and training for tomorrow’s skills.

    We continue along the path set forth by this administration, we push back and soundly reject those alternative and destructive policies proffered by the extremists, the Corporate aristocracy, and the TP/Libertarian wing … and we’ll do very well. Moderate inflation of 5-7% for a few years, regaining our top dawg economic position, and leading the world forward.

    • Newspooner

      Nonsense! Are you one of the thousands of people who is paid with our tax money to work on ending liberty? Or are you just an innocent sheeple with some writing skills who thinks he can “educate” the “common folk”?

      • Flashy

        Which part do you find fault with? And why?

      • Right Brain Thinker

        Nonsense? NONSENSE? BwaHaHaHa! and LMAO. I apologize for laughing in your face, Spooner, it’s not polite (although politeness is often in short supply on PLD). You are among the “sheeple” here who need the “education” and you should be thanking Flash for trying to educate you.

        And what’s wrong with having good “writing skills” and an education and a good rational brain and sharing it with those who lack such things? I myself admire Flash for having those things and flatter myself that I possess them too.

        I laugh particularly at you saying: “Are you one of the thousands of people who is paid with our tax money to work on ENDING LIBERTY?” Are you implying that Flash is perhaps an educator who works at a public institution of learning? I spent a career in such a place and miss it greatly—teaching truth and the rational seeking thereof was a great way to spend the day. Lots of “liberty” there, and that word was defined in a way that will never exist in your mind.

      • Right Brain Thinker

        See, Flash beat me to it and he is already trying to help you educate yourself. Work with him—-answer his question. I will team with Flash and we will both work to help you be “liberated”.

      • Texas Ride

        Flashbo is a radical lib and libs do not live in the real world. Truth and facts are alien to them because facts never support their radical agenda. They have their own fantasy they create out of nothing but a twisted ideology that has never worked and never will work.

        They talk about going “Forward” when in reality they are going backward with lightening speed! They talk about how “Progressive” they are when in reality they are taking us back to a Feudal state where government owns all the wealth.

        The marxists named the monstrosity, omaumaucare, The AFFORDABLE Care Act, and we all know that the cost of omaumaucare is unsustainable. Radicals just want to see if people are smart enough to realize the reversal of meaning they pin on everything they touch.

        Ask the marxists a question and they change the subject to something or someone from the past. They don’t want to address “the present,” because they can’t! People know too much about what is happening and there is too much information readily available to confirm their criminal acts. Libs can’t defend what is happening now, so they only want to hash over the past…Keep them focusesd on the present, Make them focus on today, instead of letting them redirect the topic with a lot of B.S. about the past. None of that B.S. justifies the treasonous acts coming out of Washington today.

      • Right Brain Thinker

        Oh my, Flash. We do have our work cut out for us with Texas RideBO. I am still working on deciphering the meaning of “lightening speed”, governments owning all the wealth in a “feudal” state, “reversals of meaning”, and his “present-past-today-past-present-now” time-warping.

        I am disinclined to answer him at all because of his mindless, childish, and disrespectful use of “omaumaucare” when referring to President O’Bama’s health care plan.. I’ll leave him to you or anyone else who wants to try to teach a pig to whistle.

      • Flashy

        RBT … I’m waiting for TexasRide to state what in particular he/she finds in error about what i wrote. Same with what’s their name…

        i doubt they’ll respond. (my guess is they weren’t aware of even the most obvious and well known fact in economic circles … that the largest economy is the EU and not the US)

        Maybe DaveH will rant and denigrate then post a Mises link … any bets?

      • DaveH

        What’s to dispute, Flashman? You only made one statement that is even remotely specific, as is usual for you and your Liberal Progressive brethren.
        That statement was — “production is up, manufacturing is a solid base, efficiency is up, and credit lines are available and becoming even more so”.
        Production is up? From what? When? Without specifics, how can anybody refute you? Of course, since the statistics fluctuate from one month to the next, there are almost always “up” events, depending on where your point of reference starts. And most importantly, are the stats Real (that is adjusted for increases in the money supply)? Or are they just symptomatic of the increased money supply which gives the illusion of growth even though the actual unit production rate is down?
        And as always Flashman, you are lacking references. Since I have demonstrated time after time that you have no credibility, I expect you to post some references so that we have knowledge of who is saying what, and how they are saying it.
        For the people who want to better understand what is really going on:
        http://mises.org/daily/1873

      • Flashy

        RBT ! Look ! DaveH has posted …well…ummm…his usual diatribe of denigration, gave no substance of opinion or reasoning, and even blessed us with … a Mises link !

      • Right Brain Thinker

        To Flash,
        “i doubt they’ll respond. (my guess is they weren’t aware of even the most obvious and well known fact in economic circles … that the largest economy is the EU and not the US)”

        WHAT? Are you SURE of that? Can you cite a Mises LInk that says so?
        If not, it just CAN’T be true!!

        “Maybe DaveH will rant and denigrate then post a Mises link … any bets?”

        I wouldn’t bet on anything after WTS(Jay) and I actually exchanged TWO consecutive civil comments on the now quiet “Conservatism in the GOP is Dead” thread—go look at them if you don’t believe me. There may be another Jay that hasn’t yet revealed himself.

        Actually DaveH seems to be doing a little “better” with his comments—-both in quantity and tone. I’d really like to bet instead that he can continue to do so. There are plenty of others roaming the threads of PLD that we can “beat up on”. (I did a quick count of comments on another “quiet thread” and found that DaveH ALONE had made over 20% of the 586 posted comments).

      • Flashy

        BTW DaveH…once again, you never read what you posted as a link did you. LOL … you really don’t have a clue do you … just remember..no cheese and less salt on the fries the next time OK?

      • Right Brain Thinker

        Flash says: RBT ! Look ! DaveH has posted …well…ummm…his usual diatribe of denigration, gave no substance of opinion or reasoning, and even blessed us with … a Mises link !

        Be kind and be hopeful. DaveH’s comment DID have a Mises link (I wouldn’t bet against that at any odds less than 1000 to 1). A CAREFUL reading of his words reveals that they are not quite DOWN to his usual “diatribes of denigration”. What he says is also perhaps a bit more coherent than usual. You will win the bet hands down if he slams two or three more of his patented “quickies” out there while I’m writing this, especially if he puts “lots of them there ad hominem critters” in there.

        Come on, Dave—-I’m on your side—-show us that you can be better!

      • Texas Ride

        RBT, typical lib, when there is no defense, fall back to “personal attacks.”
        The radical spin is so obvious.

        Forward means Backward
        Progressive means Archaic
        Affordable means Unsustainable

      • DaveH

        Obviously I’m shaking up RBT and Flashman’s handlers. They’re getting almost frantic in their childish attempts to marginalize me.
        Thank you, guys. I couldn’t expose your true natures to the readers without you.

    • eddie47d

      They never explain their reasoning to your comments Flashy and automatically go on the attack. Since Flashy wants the Middle Class to be strong again then we can assume that Texas Ride is not Middle Class but must lean more towards the upper crust in her put downs and name calling..Seems like she is the one ducking the hard questions and only gives weak answers. Now if you don’t like bringing up the past then I want to see you tear into Dave H who constantly brings up Lincoln,Wilson and FDR or is that different when a Conservative brings those “old timers”.

      • Flashy

        With the attempts at revisionism in re: Lincoln, I wonder what the reaction will be with the book on Jefferson…just hitting #1 on the NYTs best selling list.

      • DaveH

        “Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it” — George Santayana.
        Of course that first requires some real history to learn from. And that is NOT an easy task these days given that Court Historians write most of our History books.

        Here is a great book which takes us from the middle-age Feudal period to our American Revolution:
        http://library.mises.org/books/Murray%20N%20Rothbard/Conceived%20in%20Liberty_Vol_2.pdf

      • Flashy

        DaveH…have you read that book?

      • Texas Ride

        eddie, DaveH doesn’t use History to obfuscate, he uses it as a tool to educate! And he stays on subject!

        When you libs learn the difference and can use History without changes the facts to suit your own agenda, there won’t be as much to criticize. But, that will never happen because libs can’t face facts in History or otherwise. Libs can’t support their ideology because that ideology isn’t based on facts, logic, or reason! Their ideology is based on lies, greed, envy, hatred of producers and religion, the worship of government, obfuscation, and a warped sense of the world. Theirs is a failed ideology that turns properous countries into hellholes, and the hellholes into depravity.

      • DaveH

        I’m reading it right now, Flashman. And it is very interesting. Why do you ask?

      • eddie47d

        That will always be open to debate Texas Ride!

    • http://wildeyguns.com The Christian American

      Inorder to incease wealth, we would have to abolish the Federal Reserve and replace it with private mints coining gold and silver coins. Paper certificates could be legal, provided they were redeemible in gold or silver coins. Before the Federal Reserve system, there were private mints minting gold and silver coins. These could be replaced with gold and silver certificates but at the holders leisure he could turn them in for silver or gold coins. The holder had real wealth in his possession. As the genius of industry improved, the buying power of coins increased. Example: Twenty $20.00 gold pieces can buy a $38,000 automobile today. The value of legtimate money has increased that much. Under this criminal system the value of what we call money decreases to point we need 38,000 dollars to buy that car. Inflation (counterfeiting) would be impossible, except counterfeiters. In 1864 the Secret Service was established for the soul pupose of catching counterfeiters. Now it protects counterfeiters.

      • GALT

        Unfortunately your analysis is faulty…..cars….money and….gold…….( as money or real wealth )

        2000 273 X 20 gold pieces = 5400 dollar car
        2005 513 = 10, 000 dollar car
        2010 1,410 = 28, 000 dollar car

        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gold_as_an_investment

        gold is simply another commodity……..and it’s value is determined by circumstance
        and perception………which is fairly easy to see………when you track these against
        everything else……..which the link will help you see……..( wishing to see……required )

        that gold is NOT real wealth becomes painfully clear when you take your first
        big bite………………………….

        I’m glad we could spend this time together……….

        • Joe America

          Excuse me, but, as a life time coin collector, only Congress and the Treasury can mint coins for legal tender. Private mints did produce allot of “coinage and tokens”, however they were not considered legal tender.

    • JeffH

      Communist Party USA Pushing Obamanomics and Tax Increases

      Communism thrives best when everyone is poor and dependent on the government for everything. In keeping with this theme, Communist Party USA is also demanding that Obama fully fund the Medicare, Medicaid, Social Security and every other government program that provides for everyone’s basic needs. Keeping everyone dependent on the government is critical to the success of a communist government. In a statement released by the Communist Party USA, they said:

      “The national legislative struggle is the first challenge to continue the deep organizing that resulted in the election victory, in order to win priorities that benefit the 99 percent.”

      “The will of the voters is being put to immediate test as the so-called ‘fiscal cliff’ negotiations play out in Washington. Labor and the broad alliance that re-elected President Obama clearly supported an end to tax breaks for the wealthiest and keeping hands off Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid and other basic human needs.”

      The national committee of the Communist Party USA added:

      “The outcome of this battle will set the framework for the next four years and have impact on the lives of ordinary working people for decades to come. Only the mobilized working people can stop the corporate offensive and begin to meet our needs. The unity of the broad, inclusive and diverse alliance that won this year’s election victory should now be directed to reaching out in every community and workplace to bring the message to Congress in a strong and public way. We urge immediate participation in this critical struggle.”
      Read more: http://godfatherpolitics.com/8364/communist-party-usa-pushing-obamanomics-and-tax-increases/#ixzz2E1Fogw55

      It seems Comrade Obama has a lot of support from all of the communists in the nation and probably many others in other countries.

    • Mr.Ben

      Flashy, there are multiple statistics that would say otherwise. You say that, “production is up, manufacturing is a solid base”. Where are you getting these figures? According to Bloomberg, http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-12-11/trade-deficit-in-the-u-s-widens-as-exports-slump.html , both exports and imports are falling. How does this bode for the manufacturing market? How is production up?

      You continue to support your argument of a surging economy by stating that, “credit lines are available and becoming even more so”. Yes, the Federal Reserve is supporting the US government by purchasing $100billion/month of toxic mortgage backed securities. That’s the kind of “available credit” we need, right?

      The one country that has made economic news headlines in the last 10 years for their relentless pursuit of resources, you brush to the side by saying, “China is facing the elephant in the bedroom and in the next five years will become more and more headline news as its economy falters being forced to deal with 21st century issues so long delayed and artificially suppressed”. The US trade gap with China is the widest ever. China’s numbers all show positive growth, especially in exports. They also import and mine more gold than any other county, as of last year. And as of January 1, 2013, China will also be the first county to meet the new global economic standards set under Basel III (basically, the new Bretton-Woods). http://sprottasset.com/markets-at-a-glance/gold-solution-to-the-banking-crisis/ . What 21st century “issues” will they be forced to deal with?

      The US is faltering as the “lone source of economic power” and has been for a couple of years now. BRIC countries now trade for oil in other currencies and commodities instead of using the petrodollar. During Obamas visit to Phnom Penh recently, he spoke of the US leading the Trans-Pacific Free Trade Agreement. He tried to keep China out of this deal, the Asian countries asked China to lead. The recent UN landslide vote to give Palestine states rights flew right in the face of US interests. These are only a few of the many events that show that America is losing respect. Fear, plus the massive reserves of $ debt each country holds has been the only thing keeping the $ afloat. As soon as that fear is gone, the US will be forced to deal with 21st century economic issues. Open your eyes Flashy, the print is there for all to see.

  • brett

    again bob, i’m confused… anyone paying attention knows better than to fall for the republican lies, yet this site consistently promotes the republican/gop/neocon spiel?

    • Right Brain Thinker

      Bob? BOB! PLEASE answer this for brett. I am eagerly awaiting your reply.

  • http://wildeyguns.com The Christian American

    I’ve got an idea. The paper money that the Federal Reserve is printing has the wealth of America, our wealth, backing it. We DO NOT owe the Federal Reserve anything. The collateral for the paper money they print is ours to begin with. Take our collateral away from the Federal Reserve and leave the Federal Reserve hanging out to dry in it’s dealings with the rest of the world. Let those liars and thieves explain their actions and we’ll get on with our lives.

    Dose this make sense? I borrow money and the bank uses a house which I already own as their collateral. If I default, the only recourse the bank has is to let me claim my own house. Ligitimate paper money is nothing but cerfificates for gold or silver that I can get on demand at any bank. If I borrow from a bank, it would be required to have in it’s possession gold or silver to back the paper it loaned me. With this system, banks are NOT required to have anything that I can claim with the paper they loaned me.

  • http://www.facebook.com/peter.b.rutkiewicz Peter B Rutkiewicz

    Since the United States Currency is the default currency used in worldwide commerce and since the United States has never defaulted on any of its debts, the money supply can be increased in proportion to the world’s population and the world’s commercial activity which follows the increase in world population. That means that, since population follows a pattern of geometric and sometimes exponential increases, the supply of money can also be increased in direct proportion, with adjustments of course to account for present conditions.

    If this is true, then we are way, way behind on increasing the money supply and we have nothing to worry about as evidenced by the exceedingly low rate of inflation for the past two decades and we just experienced in 2008 what happens when we don’t increase the money supply while economic factors involving unmitigated and unregulated greed (due to an intentional lack of regulation by a Republican administration) cause a severe contraction of available money with which to effect commercial transactions.

    If it is not true, then we should be able to reduce the money supply as suggested by the conservatives to the point where all business and commerce is severely hamstrung by an inability to continue operations while they wait for Tom to pay Dick to pay Harry to pay Bob so Bob can pay Them and they can pay their Suppliers. Of course, the withholding of operating funds will be selective and targeted to industries where Unions exist such as the deliberate attempt to make General Motors fail by withholding operating funds from a viable Company as the “powers that be” attempted to create a widespread depression like in 1930 with 25% unemployment, just as the first President of “Color” took office.

    The combination of the monumentally stupid and ill-informed and the selfish evil of greedy men almost worked. It did in 1929-1930. It failed in 2008-2009, but it was close, damn close.

    Economic expansion is being fueled by better processes throughout the manufacturing sector and the proliferation of computers and other technologies has helped productivity in virtually every field. This said, what is the source of inflation? Other than increasing demand of a product with inelastic supply I don’t see anything different happening. However, I do believe we need to get at Nation Building (infrastructure) in a very big way. Floods, storms, fresh water, hydroelectric power…there is so much that can be done that will pay back handsomely over time.

    In 2014-2015, the USA becomes the world’s leading producer of natural gas. In 2017-2018, we become oil independent. And, by 2023 we will be a greater producer of refined petroleum than Saudi Arabia…the USA, blessed with natural resources, will then be the greatest oil producing nation just when the the third world is really starting to move.

    Good times are ahead. We are on the threshold of the greatest economic expansion since the Industrial revolution. The time to invest in our infrastructure and our future is NOW.

    • http://wildeyguns.com The Christian American

      This true if you don’t count devaluing the dollar being in default. They have been devalued to the point they are virtually worthless. There’s no longer any collateral backing the dollar.

      • Motov

        Soon you’ll be able to wipe your butt cheaper with currency than with toilet paper.

      • Right Brain Thinker

        One of my right leaning friends sent me a joke e-mail showing a roll of toilet paper that was printed like a roll of bills. It was labeled with cute things like “ObamaMoney”, “not tender but scratchy”, “worth nothing” and Obama’s face was on the bills.

        I heard that you could buy them through the PLD “store”. I also heard that they sold pretty well but that the “RomneyMoney” that the company has switched over to is doing much better. Doubt that the PLD “store” will carry that, though.

  • Motov

    Politics,….. Poli means many,…..Tics are blood sucking parasites,…..sounds accurate to me.

    • Right Brain Thinker

      Almost, but you need a “k” on “tic” to make it work with the bug thing.

      The “tics” you used are more in the nature of “spasms” or “twitchings”, both physical and mental. Lord knows, we see a lot of that amongst the very conservative (see also “knee-jerk”), so it’s still a good play on words even without the “K” LOL

      • Motov

        I have parkinson’s disease,…I know about involuntary movements.
        And yes I could have used “ticks” , but it did convey the message that our government are parasites and they need to stop sucking their host, The host is dried up,
        The parasites are far too big for the host to continue to support it. The message is that simple. If the parasites continue, as they are, The parasites will commit suicide by killing the host.
        And this nation will cease to be its former self.

      • Right Brain Thinker

        Almost by definition, a parasite cannot kill its host, because, as you say, it will then commit “suicide”. I would argue that the “government” is not the parasite, but rather that it’s the plutocracy and corporate oligarchy that are sucking the host body of the 99% dry.

        • Motov

          But they use the government as tools for their ill gotten booty,… Almost like the invasion of the body snatchers or along those lines.

  • RichE

    What are the supply and demand components of the hyperinflation? I understand inflation to be demand out pacing supply.

  • Karolyn

    The tax rate at the highest tax bracket was 77% in 1918. It was up as high as 94% in 1945. In ’03 it was 35%, and last year 17%. This certainly does not seem right! Someone sent this chart to me, so i don’t have original site.

  • http://na Mike in NE

    eddie, dave67, flushly, rbt, etc.,,, you guys cannibalize yourselves, it’s hilarious! I don’t know what is wrong with the ol’ Boy Scout motto to be prepared. Nothing is certain except death and taxes right? Trust and go along with Big Government? That’s your call, not mine. I enjoy learning how the bastards have done it and I highly recomend DaveH mises links. But ya’ll keep trying to learn me now, ya hear? Been very helpful in recognizing folks like yourselves in my daily life.

    • Right Brain Thinker

      Uh, Mike? My first attempt to “learn ya” will be to suggest that you go to a dictionary and check out what “cannibalize” means. Then find an antonym and you might make better sense. (hint-hint—–try synergy-synergistic etc)

      (Just sayin’—-y’all get yourself smart and come back then, ya hear?)

      • DaveH

        I think he’s referring to the fact that, as a collective, you guys (RBT, Dave67, Flashman, etc.) are making Liberal Progressives look bad — eating each other up, so to speak.
        But then, maybe you are indeed representative of the typical Liberal Progressives. I mean what else are we to think of people who have no qualms about taking other peoples’ money and making other unwilling peoples’ choices? What else are we to think of people who adopt an ideology which has been a proven failure throughout history?
        If you had logic on your side, or experience, maybe we would listen. But you have Neither on your side, which explains all the equivocations, false information, and manipulative techniques that come with your comments.

      • Right Brain Thinker

        Uh, DaveH/JeffH. I wasn’t talking to you. I was talking to Mike, who seems to want to learn. I would not make that mistake with you. Go away.

  • http://gravatar.com/bychoosing WTS/JAY

    Does anyone need any additional evidence that our political-Economic system is completely broken?

    The entire financial system of the western world is designed to be a debt spiral. The total amount of money and and the total amount of debt are supposed to continually expand. Get it?

    • Right Brain Thinker

      Yeah, but not broken enough to completely collapse—-not yet. Let’s hope it doesn’t come true until enough people get it AND do the RIGHT things that are necessary to bring us back from the brink.

      I left a note for you on one of the dying threads to look up a column by Steven Pearlstein in the WashPost business section on Saturday last. I think we’d agree on what he said.

      postbusiness.com should get you there.

      • http://gravatar.com/bychoosing WTS/JAY

        Not this one in particular. You recommended RT and Aljazeera, i believe. I’m acquainted with both, btw. I’ll check out your recent recommendation. Thanks!

  • JeffH

    Transcript: The Great Fiscal Cliff of 2012-13, Part I
    Martin D. Weiss Ph.D.
    http://www.moneyandmarkets.com/transcript-the-great-fiscal-cliff-of-2012-13-part-i-4-50405

    • Flashy

      Note…Mr. Weiss forecast the following in 2009. hmmm…at least he’s batting 1.000. As in….none came to fruition…
      =================
      The nation’s largest banks are so close to collapse and the world economy is coming unglued so rapidly, a major Wall Street meltdown is now imminent. Specifically, it’s now increasingly likely that virtually all of our forecasts of recent months could come to pass in a very short period of time, including …

      * Stock market crash: A swift plunge in stocks to about 5000 on the Dow, 500 on the S&P 500 and 900 on the Nasdaq … or lower.

      * Corporate bankruptcies: A chain reaction of Chapter 11 filings or federal takeovers, including not only General Motors and Chrysler, but also Ann Taylor, Best Buy, Jet Blue, Macy’s, Saks Fifth Avenue, Sears, Toys “R” Us, U.S. Airways and even giants like Ford or General Electric.

      * Megabank failures: Bankruptcies or nationalization not only of Citigroup and Bank of America, but also JPMorgan Chase and HSBC.

      * Nationwide epidemic of small and medium-sized bank failures: Outright FDIC takeovers, with little prospect of nationalization.

      * Insurance failures: State takeovers of companies like Ambac Assurance, Bankers Life and Casualty, Conseco, FGIC, Medical Liability Mutual, Mortgage Guaranty Insurance, Nuclear Electric Insurance, PMI Mortgage, Standard Life of Indiana and many others.

      * Cities and states: An epidemic of defaults by thousands of cities, states and other issuers of tax-exempt municipal bonds.

      * Stock market shutdowns: Trading halts on major, big-cap stocks …plus on-again, off-again exchange shutdowns, making it increasingly difficult for investors to liquidate their holdings at any price.

      * Credit market deep freeze: A virtual shutdown in all debt markets except U.S. Treasuries. An avalanche of selling — and virtually no buyers — for corporate bonds, commercial paper, asset-backed securities, municipal bonds and all forms of bank loans.

      * Government bond collapse: A steep decline in the price of medium-and long-term government securities, as the U.S. Treasury bids aggressively for scarce funds to finance a ballooning budget deficit.

      Shocking? Perhaps. Avoidable? No.

      ===========

      Perhaps he needs DaveH to send him a Mises link so he can be educated?

      • Dave67

        Wow Flashy, more doom and gloom from 2009 that did not happen? Poor Jeffery and DavieH… They want so bad for the country to fail. I wonder if these two are even Americans.

        They hate that conservatives actually have a record that undermines their rhetoric at every turn.

      • Flashy

        DaveH last week stated he hoped Arizona 9his state) would be one of the first to secede. Such answers any question whether he is for this nation or against it.

      • JeffH

        LMAO! …and pigs can fly too!

      • DaveH

        I am FOR the average citizen, Flashman. You know — Those people who you and your handlers are taking advantage of, Flashman.

      • DaveH

        Dave67 says — “They hate that conservatives actually have a record that undermines their rhetoric at every turn”.
        Oh? Perhaps you could enlighten us, Dave67? Where is that record? I haven’t seen you guys successfully refute anything I’ve said yet. I am human. I do make mistakes some times, but the laughable part is that you guys are too ignorant to catch them.

  • RevNowWhileWeCan

    test…….

    • RevNowWhileWeCan

      Is there some reason I can’t post a link? Never had trouble before.

      • Karolyn

        Ijust had the same problem and reposted. Bob L. had told me that sometimes thinks get caught up in their filter.

  • RevNowWhileWeCan

    Okay. I guess I’ll try it this way…………..

    Beyond The Phantom Of Terror: Five Real Ways America Is Under Attack
    1. Economic Warfare: Big Banks, Imaginary Cliffs, And Genocidal Austerity.

    America’s economic life has been deliberately brought to a halt by the psychopathic international oligarchy that controls the Federal Reserve, corporate America, and the U.S. political system. The systematic destruction of the American economy began in the 1970s and it continues to accelerate. There is no question that the deindustrialization of America was preventable. But since the globalists in Washington abandoned America and its people, they saw to it that America’s core industries were destroyed.

    The big event that advanced this covert economic policy was 9/11, which marked the beginning of a politically transformative global war on terror that has drained much of the economic resources of the nation. Trillions of dollars were wasted in Iraq and Afghanistan by the military-industrial-congressional complex.

    The other major event that further enabled the looting of the American public treasury by the global financial oligarchy was the 2008 financial crash. The bailout of the criminal big banks was done at the expense of the economic security of the American people. The U.S. political elite was faced with a key decision in the fall of 2008 – defend the American people, or bail out the predatory international bankers – they went with the bankers.

    And now the bankers are back for more money. The term “fiscal cliff” has been introduced into the public psyche to pave the way for the continued looting of the American people by the big banks. Key government programs that provide a basic safety net for millions of people will be cut under the rogue Obama regime. Dr. Webster Tarpley has the right term for this bipartisan policy: genocidal austerity.

    For more information, see: 1) Webster Tarpley’s “Emergency Call for a United Front Against Austerity,” 2) “Why the Fiscal Cliff is a Scam,” by The Real News, and 3) Alex Jones – The Destruction of America: Brought to You By JP Morgan Chase.

    2. Psychological Warfare: Media Propaganda, Mass Mind Control, And Cultural Programming.

    The reality that America is under an information siege could not be any clearer. This siege is part of a larger psychological war on the American public mind. The music and film industries are actively engaged in this diabolical war. Stalinist tactics are being used by the U.S. government, mainstream media, and Hollywood. Ninety-five percent of films is social and cultural programming.

    The upcoming propaganda film “Zero Dark Thirty” was made to reinforce the mythic narrative that Bin Laden attacked America and that Obama ordered his death while he was hiding out in Pakistan. Both claims are false. The film itself is most likely a Pentagon black op that has the aim of further brainwashing the American people.

    3. Total Global Warfare: Torture, Indefinite Detention, Killer Drones, And Presidential Assassinations.

    Americans are being tortured by their own government. This is an indisputable fact. Read Glenn Greenwald’s article about the vicious and cruel treatment of free speech hero Bradley Manning by the military called, “Bradley Manning: a tale of liberty lost in America.”

    Also, go here to read what Glenn Greenwald has to say about the idea of there being a “global battlefield,” and what this means. In the annals of history, no empire has had the technological capabilities, the arrogance, and the determination to wage war against the entire Earth.

    In our time, the idea of a global battlefield, which is really spiritual in nature, has been utilized by the murderous totalitarian fascists in the U.S. government to basically declare any member of the human species to be a potential terrorist that can be killed without being given a trial in a U.S. court or an international court.

    If person X opposes Obama’s policies then he is killed by his army of drones. That is U.S. foreign policy in a nutshell. Obama likes to kill defenseless citizens of the global village from the sky like a coward. A person would be mad to follow such a cruel and heartless leader.

    For more analysis, read, “Everyone Is On Satan’s Kill List: The Rise of The Antichrist And The Death of Mankind.”

    4. Intellectual Warfare: Dissent As Conspiracy Theories And The Weapon of Ridicule.

    I’ve written so much about this topic that it is unnecessary to write anything new here. I’ll refer you to these articles: 1) “Why People Reject Conspiracy Theories,” 2) “Destroying Freedom, Truth And Justice With The Power of Words,” and 3) “Freedom of Speech In The West Is Constrained By The “Conspiracy Theory” Label.”

    5. Political Warfare: Destruction of The Bill of Rights And Gradual Implementation of Covert Policies.

    The core principles and laws of America have been systematically attacked by Republican and Democratic administrations. Obama is finishing what his predecessors in office started. Read, “President Obama Kills The Bill of Rights, Hands Americans A Bill of Lies.”

    Republican and Democratic leaders, in league with the international banking cartel, have uprooted America under the cover of darkness, dug up its proud national soil, and scattered it to the winds of history.

    The process of destroying the integrity of America’s legal and political structures has gone on for decades. Post-Kennedy U.S. presidents have done violence to the American people in secrecy while falsely presenting themselves in public as their protectors. Their betrayal is generational and bipartisan. As creators of a fascist totalitarian world state, they deem America their worst enemy. They have done more to destroy America than the combined forces of radical Islam ever will.

    The threat of terrorism is a misty and shadowy demon outside the gates. It is a phantom enemy. The real enemies of America made the country their home in 1913 with the establishment of the private Federal Reserve banking system. Bankers, not terrorists, present the greatest threat to America and modern Western civilization.

    • Jimmy the Greek

      REV That was a good read , I sort of believe the mossad likely had a lot to do with with the killing of JFK , So the fundamentalist christon LBJ could be President sooner because they were sure they would be able to control the crazy christon and from that time on AIPAC made sure they only let fundamentalist play president . They control the way most of the way people think , Hollywood , radio , TV , Newspapers , ECT . Thank you .

  • Terry Bateman

    In response to Bob Livingston’s “The fiscal cliff is a mirage…”

    Hyper inflation is not “unavoidable”. Hyper inflation will not happen in U.S. for the
    following reasons:

    1. The U.S. dollar is the world reserve currency and will remain so.
    2. There is no strong demand for higher pay because labor unions in the
    private sector are declining and almost gone and there is no strong
    economic expansion with demand-pull inflation and probably never will
    be.
    3. The federal reserve has wildly increased the money supply for eight years
    now but the critical velocity essential for inflation has not been furnished
    by the banking sector in lending money to people and business. In other
    words, they are sitting on it.
    4. Wal-Mart keeps the cost of consumer goods down as much as can possibly
    be done with it’s efficient global purchasing and merchandising system.
    5. American workers are the world’s most efficient and productive producers
    and will become even more so with the widespread use of 3-D Printing to
    produce almost anything anywhere in small or large quantities. This
    alone will bring back much manufacturing jobs back to U.S. from overseas.
    6. Increased oil and gas production in the U.S. and the dollar remaining the
    world currency will reduce the cost of oil and gas in U.S. permanently. This is
    the final nail in the coffin for U.S. inflation.

    For these reasons and more, “protracted economic collapse” will not happen in the
    U.S. Rather, a globe changing American Renaissance is stirring with the U.S.
    becoming the world’s largest energy producer and exporter and the related
    expansion of chemical, industrial, and manufacturing business in the U.S.

    • http://wildeyguns.com The Christian American

      The Federal Reserve is using the American peoples own property as collateral to “lend” them money. Why can’t the American people simply claim their property and wipe out the “loan”?

      • Terry Bateman

        The federal reserve prevented a deflationary depression by providing liquidity to
        the financial markets that were dead in the water.History will credit Bush and
        helicopter Ben with preventing a U.S. catastrophic depression and Obama for
        continuing the same policy.

        • Joe America

          Terry, with all due respect, the Fed and Wall Street created the fiscal mess we’re in, right now, and they’re holding back a wave of bad debt with fiat money. That’s not help, that’s only holding back the inevitable. You really need to study the Fed, how they came into power. The Fed has never been a benefit to this nation. Read “Secrets of the Temple” and Ron Pauls “End the Fed” and you’ll soon understand what I’m saying, and why. Other good books, if you can find them, is “The Emperor’s Clothes Cost Twenty Dollars” and “Money, The Greatest Hoax on Earth.” Also, the “Creature from Jekyll Island” clearly lays out the plot of American and international bankers to take over the finances of our nation. And, if you control the purse strings, you control the nation. Even worse than the social security system, the Federal Reserve (it’s not federal and their are no reserves) is the largest Ponzi scheme in the history of the world. The Fed is a parasite, sucking the blood out of the American people. They’ve been doing this since 1913, quite illegally, but everyone fears them. They have all the gold and he who has the gold, rules. It’s quite interesting that Ben Bernanke, when questioned about the TARP bail out, $2.3 Trillion dollar bailout, here’s what been answered to Congress:

          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OC5uQx1W87I

          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n0NYBTkE1yQ

          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AidBugvVqpw

          The Fed and Ben Bernanke are not friends of the American people. The Federal Reserve is a privately owned organization, owned by American banking interests, as well as foreign banking interests. The own the World Bank and the International Monetary Fund. They want to run the world and are doing a pretty good job of getting what they want, which is total financial control, over America, and the world.

    • Karolyn

      Thank you Terry. It’s a breath of fresh air to hear good news on this site!

      • Terry Bateman

        Here is further good news, Karolyn:
        1. Spokane based Avista Utilities filed for a 10% reduction in the rates they charge
        customers for electricity because of the reduction in cost of natural gas.
        2.The Wall Street Journal says that cheap natural gas from U.S. shale has made the
        U.S. the “low cost industrial country for energy”.
        3. German and French manufacturers pay three times and Japanese manufacturers
        pay 7 times what U.S. manufacturers pay for natural gas.
        4. Cheap natural gas powered electricity is a boon to all industry. 25% of plastic
        and 75% fertilizer manufacturing costs are natural gas.
        5.Wham-O just moved 50% of Frisbee production to U.S. from China.
        6.A new steel plant is under construction in Youngstown, Ohio that will make
        500,000 tons a year of the steel tubing used in natural gas production.
        7.A 1.4 billion fertilizer plant is under construction in U.S. by a foreign company.
        8.Dow Chemical, Chevron Philips Chemical both are building multi-million dollar
        chemical plants in the U.S.
        9.Royal Dutch Shell is building an ethylene plant in Pennsylvania.
        10.CF Industries is spending $2 billion boosting U.S. production.
        11.Occidental Chemical, Chevron Phillips Chemical, Formosa Plastics,
        LyondellBasell Industries, and Eastman Chemicals all are building or reopening
        energy and chemical plants in the U.S.

    • Joe America

      Terry,

      Presently, if you want to buy oil, you have to exchange your currency into US dollars. This situation was set up with OPEC by Nixon. However, the world is getting wise to the fact that all we produce, presently, is the dollar. China and Russia, as well as South and Central American nations, and all of Asia and the Middle East, are looking to carry out trade and purchase of oil, by by-passing the dollar. The only thing holding the dollar afloat, right now, it a piss poor Euro. We’re in bad shape, but not as bad as Europe. In spite of that, we’re in deep debt and it’s getting worse and will continue so. Our only out, at this point, will be our vast oil and gas reserves.

      As for manufacturing, if it’s going so well, why is every factory closing? Why did we lose Hostess? Look at any industrial city and all you’re going to see is boarded up buildings with locks and chains on the gates. Our trade balance is way out of control. Everything is going down and the only thing keeping us afloat, right now, is endless printing of money by the Fed.

      An American industrial and economic rebirth can happen, but only if we lower taxes, particularly corporate taxes, and allow our oil and gas industry to flourish. This is our ticket out of this mess. That being said, if we don’t get the Federal Reserve (it’s not federal and there are no reserves) out of our pocketbooks and wallets, we’re doomed to keep repeating the same old fiscal cycles.

      Since 1913, the only real winners in this nation have been the international bankers who own the Federal Reserve Banks, as well as Wall Street and the major corporations. And, before you get all Democratic or Repulican on me, take a look at all the finacial cabinet heads of all the presidents since Carter, and you’ll see the same old money whores in the same old dresses. I think the documentary “Inside Job” provides a clear picture of how we’ve arrived where we are, today. The sad thing is these same people are still in control of our finances. Derivitives are still being bundled and sold, and, sadly, “we the people” are the major owners of a crap load of bad debt.

      You’re hopeful and I’m right there with you, because I don’t want the ship to go down, either, but we have massive holes in the bottom and our bilge pumps can’t keep up much longer.

      • JC

        That’s quite a bit more realistic Joe.

      • Terry Bateman

        Joe:

        Manufacturing WILL go better in America as companies are already planning manufacturing plants in America instead of overseas for the following reasons:
        1. Increasing labor and government regulation costs overseas and increasing
        shipping costs are already shifting overseas manufacturing to the U.S.
        2. Natural gas , crude oil, and coal cost considerably less in the U.S. than overseas,
        reducing cost of power to manufacturers.
        3. Increasing oil and gas production and superb infrastructure in the U.S. are
        compelling reasons for chemical makers and manufacturers to build new
        plants in the U.S.
        4.3-D printing in the U.S. is a manufacturing game changer that enables quick
        small or large manufacturing runs at low costs eliminating any need to manufacture
        overseas products sold for the U.S. market.
        5.Continued shift of U.S. manufacturing to the southern parts of the U.S. with little
        or no labor unions will end the damage done to manufacturing by labor unions
        such as Hostess bankruptcy.

        As for Republicans and Democrats, who cares?

        • Joe America

          Terry, I hope your assessment of the situation is right. This is one time I’d love to be wrong. I am hopeful that Obama will support development of our vast natural gas and oil reserves, to the benefit of our economy. It would be nice if his desire to leave a very positive presidential legacy would trump the socialist/communists forces surrounding him. If he would move toward moderation, away from socialism, that would be a game changer. Then, we could have some hope. I guess we’ll just have to wait and see. Keep up the positive thoughts.

      • Karolyn

        Joe – Why is “every” factory closing. I don’t think so. As I;ve posted before, Freightliner in C laid off its workers to EXPAND its line. Even in this lower-socio-economis rural area, INA Bearing has been expanding every year, most recently adding another 190 jobs. Why not take the blinders off and see some of the good indications there are? I’m sure there are more if we but look. These two only come out of my own personal knowledge via tv and newspaper.

        • Joe America

          Karolyn,

          I hope you’re correct, as I don’t want to see our economy go down the toilet, but I don’t see the evidence. We’ll see after the first of the year. If you’re right, then good for all of us.

  • momo

    Flashy says: “Reality is Mr. Livingston, production is up, manufacturing is a solid base,”

    Not according to The Institute for Supply Management, the index for national factory activity fell to its lowest point since July, 2009.

    “Jobs. Listen. Hear it? That roar fast approaching ? The one portending a large increase in employment?”

    WOW, Obama, since he became president, has produced a net of new jobs under 200,000. That’s a virtual freight train of a roar!!!!

    ” Moderate inflation of 5-7% for a few years, regaining our top dawg economic position, and leading the world forward.”

    It seems Nouriel Roubini would disagree.
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/financialcrisis/9408062/Nouriel-Roubini-sticks-to-perfect-storm-in-2013-prediction.html

    • http://None Thomas L. Phillips

      In the article it states that people making under 30K pay no federal income taxes. I make about 25K and the past few years I’ve paid between $1600 and $1800 in federal income taxes (this is separate from what I pay in social security and medicare taxes and is separate from what I pay in state income taxes). I got a refund of less than 100 dollars last year. The year before that I owed a small sum and put money I really couldn’t spare into my health savings account at work so that I got a small refund (less than $100). I had to pay an extra $19 on the state income tax over what was withdrawn from my pay checks. What kind of deductions (other than the standard one) and credits are these other people that make 25K getting so that they’re not paying any taxes? Turbo Tax and H&R Block aren’t giving me any special deductions or credits.

      • Joe America

        Thomas,

        Who’s doing your tax returns?

      • Karolyn

        That doesn’t seem right. When I was making around that amount, I waa getting money back every year. Of course, that was years ago, but you should check into that.

  • Karolyn

    Has anybody tried to email PLD? For some reason my emails to them bounce. I’m trying to send a story that I’m sure they will like.

  • Karolyn

    I notice somebody else complained about their post with a link not showing up. It just happened to me. Normally, they only do that with multiple links.

  • Joe America

    Bob,

    Sadly, you are so correct in all your assessment of our fiscal situation. Unfortunately, you are one of the rare people in this country who really understands what’s happening, and what’s going to happen. It’s going to be Great Depression II on steriods, which is going to drive the masses of this nation even closer to socialism. There is a possiblity that our oil and gas reserves may save us, however, Obama’s going to nationalize that situation, becoming an American Chavez. Great article and I hope all Americans read it, not just those who come here to post.

  • Karolyn

    I’m gonna try again – 8 Principles for Understanding the Fiscal Cliff in 30 seconds. Makes a lot of sense to me, but I’m sure most of you won’t like it.
    http://www.commondreams.org/video/2012/12/03-1

    • Karolyn

      That should be “2 minutes and 30 seconds.”

  • Frank

    I am just curious. For how many years have you been predicting that hyperinflation is just around the corner?

  • Motov

    How delusional the liberals and the neocons are. About 50 % of the population is supporting the other half, And Ohbozo wants to raise taxes in the middle of a nasty recession. It is plain insanity to think he can spend us into prosperity. And he has hired more Government workers to keep us “in line”. What I fail to understand is this man has never told the truth, and people were willing to cheat the system so he would continue to sit on the throne. He is your enemy, not your friend, He gives you trinkets to keep you happy while he takes away everything you have. And when you finally wake and smell the coffee, It’ll be too late. Welcome to the NWO, people please form a line, we have an exciting new flavor of kool aide just for you. I live in red neck land, just try and take over these people,…..

    • moonbeam

      Exactly right, Motov. And this is what people tend to overlook even though it is right in their faces. The REAL unemployment is more like 50%. The numbers the gov’t serves to us count only the folks who looked for work the past 4 weeks. Doesn’t count those who just gave up, quite or have settled to suckle on the the taxpayer teat. This is not sustainable. Eventually OPM (other people’s money) runs out.

      • Motov

        I Believe Margaret Thatcher said something along those lines “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people’s money. “

  • Rich

    Yout lifeline depends on food and water. Look at the source, the transport, the price, & availability. Break any link in the chain and the supply falls apart. The cities and suburbs all depend on this line. Country people will survive and they have the guns and ammo to guard it. The printing of money continues at an addtional $40 billion per month indefinitely. Inflation of the money, your retirements are continueing before your eyes. Only the blind eat from Obamas hand and believe it will come forever. Look at Sandy to see how a small section of the country has been helped by FEMA. A countrywide disaster or economic collapse is inevitable.

  • Right Brain Thinker

    Count at 8:20 PM

    Total comments on thread 272
    Comments by Daveh/JeffH 51

    He/they are approaching 20% of the total and will likely exceed that as the total comment count goes higher. I haven’t counted the number of commenters, but it likely is around 50 or more, meaning that 2% of the commenters are making 20% of the comments.

    In addition to doing those “troll things” that Jeff so nicely listed for us earlier, one of their jobs is to up the hit count on a thread and finally clog the discussion so badly that we all move on to another thread and start over. You may have noticed that he/they don’t usually appear in the early stages of a discussion, come in after some folks have committed to trying to talk to each other, and finally finish with a burst nearer the end that turns things off. Watch for the pattern—-it’s obvious to RBT’s. .

    • JeffH

      It’s nice to know that RBT is keeping count. Did you take the time to add up your comment total and figure out what percentage your “inane” comments amount to?

      Nice to know you’re occupied with the important issues, like tabulating comments…your handler’s must be proud. Hope you don’t stay up nights worrying youself over this boogeyman stuff.

      • Right Brain Thinker

        LOL Someone who talks about me “staying up nights worrying over boogeymen” is posting a comment at 12:46 AM. While I’m asleep in bed? LOL again.

        I presume Jeff is speaking to me when he asks if I “added up my comment total and figured out what my percentage of “inane” comments amounted to”?. Easy to answer, Jeff. I didn’t add mine up because it is YOUR job to add up my comment total if you think you can make something of it—you can’t, because I am far from a leader in numbers of comments.

        What’s my percentage of “inanity”? Even easier—-ZERO, NADA, NONE—-You and DaveH are the near exclusive owners of inanity on PLD. The closest I ever come to “inanity” is to make a small joke on occasion and, since that may help some readers feel better after being sickened by your “contributions”, I wouldn’t consider that a disservice to the group.

        And boogeymen? Do you feel uneasy now that I’ve exposed your little DaveH-JeffH game? Don’t forget that YOU posted that “Manual for understanding How Trolls LIke Dave-Jeff Operate” and spilled the beans. Am I your boogeyman, Jeff? Could be—-maybe you should think of me as Right Brain TERMINATOR because “I’ll be back” every time your “inanity” needs smashing. Be afraid, Jeff, be very afraid—-the boogeyman of truth and rationality is hiding under your bed. (Not enough room in your closet with all your multiple personalities hiding in there)

      • JeffH

        RBT, all I can do is LMAO at you and your ignorance.
        As much as you try to, you can’t turn the tables here…you’ve been exposed as the progressive schill and troll you are. A very poor attempt to return the favor on your part, it ain’t gonna happen on my watch.

        This part of your little rant is about a laughable as anything you’ve said since you were assigned to PLD.

        Just LMAO @ “And boogeymen? Do you feel uneasy now that I’ve exposed your little DaveH-JeffH game? Don’t forget that YOU posted that “Manual for understanding How Trolls LIke Dave-Jeff Operate” and spilled the beans. Am I your boogeyman, Jeff? Could be—-maybe you should think of me as Right Brain TERMINATOR because “I’ll be back” every time your “inanity” needs smashing. Be afraid, Jeff, be very afraid—-the boogeyman of truth and rationality is hiding under your bed. (Not enough room in your closet with all your multiple personalities hiding in there)”

        Exposed? What you’ve just done is confirm that you are a certifiable loon.

        Anyone with a whole brain can see that you are projecting your own fears with your comment. Right Brain TERMINATOR? Yeah, right…a “half witted” consiracy theorist is more accurate.

        Good luck though…sooner or later the boys in the white jackets will be coming to take you away ha, ha…in a straight jacket! Ha, ha!

  • S.C.Murf

    Well I’ve read all the posts, consumed all the numbers and inhaled all facts and i still have come up with the same tabulation ———DaveH, JeffH, Kate8, TIME and a few others 1, flashy, fast eddie, right brain (i doubt it) thinker and a few others ZERO. And big K you keep tending that garden full of those prized Mushrooms. To the ones talking of what Jesus say’s and what’s going to happen, very true, just exactly how it’s going to play out only Jesus knows. Yes He gives us hints, and some say this will happen and others say that. I have one question to ask, how many believe that the Caucasian of the UK and America are indeed of the House of David and we are indeed descendants of Israel? That’s something all need to look into. A shill is a shill is a shill correct RBT? I am tired of the gov’t taking my hard earned money and giving it to the likes of RBT and his ilk.

    up the hill
    airborne

  • Karolyn

    newark-mayor-cory-booker-snap-challenge
    Booker to eat on $5 a day for a month to show how hard it is for people on Food Stamps (SNAP). If the Republicans get all they want we will have many more on the streets starving, but they’ll be snug and fat in their mansions, (think Christie).

    • Joe America

      Karolyn, The USA is the only nation on the face of the Earth, with fat “poor” people. No one in this nation knows what poor is, anymore. As for the non-working, the system encourages them to stay on the dole. I’ve worked in healthcare for my entire working life, from 18 to 63, and I’ve seen generation, upon generation of families on Medicaid and Food Stamps. Why does this happen? Because these folks get trapped into the cycle and Uncle Sammy is loathe to get them off. This all goes back to “Give a man a fish and he’ll eat for a day. Teach a man to fish and he’ll feed himself and his family, for the rest of his days.” These poor folks get the crumbs from the table of our society. I know, because when I was a child, I was hungry and my family was poor. There were days when the cupboard was bare, and it wasn’t because my father wasn’t working, as he had two full time jobs, which paid [comment has been edited]. However, at that time, there was no social safety net. He had to work harder, and get better jobs, which he did, and life improved. We can’t encourage people to stay on welfare, just so polititians can control them for their votes. This is what’s happening to our poor. No body chooses to be poor. So, I don’t begrudge anyone, especially a child, a meal. However, I do begrudge a system that puts the poor in a spiral that they can’t escape. It’s a form of control. I’m a firm believer in workfare. I remember having a patient that needed a ride to his medical appointment. He called, crying, because he couldn’t get a ride. It was more than just an appointment, it was a life saving treatment. Against my better judgement, and at personal risk, I picked him up, as there was no taxi service or public transport available to help this man. When I arrived at his appartment, his daughters, who were on welfare, had two cars outside. They refused to help him. The apartment was filthy, the kids were running around in poopy diapers and three young men in wife beater shirts were sitting around, drinking beer and watching Jerry Springer. This is what we’ve created with our present system of welfare and it’s got to go. It’s not good for the “adults”, and it certainly isn’t good for children to grow up in such a situation. I deny no one a full belly, but, by God, everyone needs to work and earn their way.

      • http://tlgeer.wordpress.com tlgeer

        “I’ve seen generation, upon generation of families on Medicaid and Food Stamps.”

        You haven’t seen this since the late 1990′s. Welfare was changed to having a 5 year maximum, and some states have it even lower. Workfare is required. Obama has even offered to give states waivers to the standard workfare program – as long as their program puts more people to work.

        • Joe America

          Ah, Karolyn, now, I know you’re out of touch. That five year clock just turns over and it begins, again. The new thing is to cry disability and get SSI, whether deserved, or not. The Obama administration fast tracked a large number of those on Medicaid and unemployment, onto SSI, just to get their unemployment numbers down. Argue all you want, those in the know, primarily social workers, nurses, case workers and physicians, are more familiar with what’s really happening. The far left knows this, too, but that is what they want, more people dependent on government for survival. The goal of the left isn’t to break the right, but to break this nation. And, your kind are doing a great job of it. Not saying the Republicans are any better, because I’m not fond of them, either. All they want is welfare for the rich. You see, the middle class is getting taken down between the extreme right and the extreme left. Both ends of the spectrum want to drain the middle class and destroy it, once and for all, each group for its own reasons. It’s a choice between communism and facism. That is what is being thrown at the American people, constantly. If anyone wants the middle, well, you must be a terrorist, retarded or mentally ill. Neither you, nor the far right, seem to want a middle ground. As a result, you are both tearing up the Constitition and Bill of Rights, because both parties have voted to continue Patriot Act II, and now we’re looking at more bills, to take away our God given rights. Great job, Karolyn, all the commies are very proud of you, comrade.

  • Karolyn

    Home values up 6.3%! Arizona 21%!

    • Joe America

      Karolyn,

      What they didn’t tell you is what people are paying for those homes. I watched the same ABC Evening news report. Remember the when they interviewed the agent, before 2008 and homes were over $300,000 and then dropped down to the $170,000′s? Those houses are selling, but way under their pre-recession values. A great majority are short sales. Those with money are simply taking advantage of the deals. This is all hype, to make people feel that, magically, things are better, when they’re not.

      I have an MBA and have studied depressions, recessions and “recoveries” for decades. We’re in deep crap, financially, as the world is holding hundreds of trillions of dollars in toxic derivatives. People are still being forclosed on. Fannie May and Freddie Mac are still in the crapper and getting worse every day. You see, they want people to feel secure and to keep spending money they don’t have. I applaud your hopeful outlook, but, sadly, I believe it’s unrealistic, at this time. Perhaps, if Obama takes advantage of our natural gas and oil reserves, we could turn this Titannic economy around.

      Keep up the positive outlook.

      • Motov

        OhBozo will do only what his masters tell him, Right now we are getting sheared by these fecal creatures. I think we are already too far into their trap that even the puppet masters are starting to sweat, more and more people are starting to think for themselves, and are realizing their government is NOT their friend. The quickest way to get a Liberal’s and Neocon’s attention is to reach for their back pockets, assuming they actually earned it,
        OhBozo’s tax hikes may just do that.

  • GALT

    For Mr. Ben, again….

    For Galt, there is absolutely nothing wrong with polite and understandable rhetoric. From what I’ve seen, this site could use more of it.

    I wan’t aware that “our conversation” had become impolite…..

    From blatant name calling to intellectual confustication, your comments have lined up in the latter Galt.

    And as I said, none of which have been directed at you……and even if you read the post below, where your name is included…….it is essentially directed at Frank…….and the point of THAT response, is to illustrate the “value” of so called polite conversation, discussing a topic where there initial starting point ( which is supposed to what?….convey “politeness” and “civility” ) is a admission of ignorance regarding the actual topic………so I guess “being polite” is important………because, unless ignorance + ignorance = something other than ignorance multiplied………the conversation HAS NO POINT. ( do you get the POINT or have you been “confusticated” again? ) BTW and FYI……there are people here with whom I have a history……..this history does not concern you……unless you wish to adopt it as a form of argument……thereby creating “our” history?

    An intelligent person isn’t just required to use qualified information, they are supposed to communicate it effectively.

    What part didn’t you understand?

    This is where you lose many people, and it’s not a compliment.

    and when “intelligent” people are lost, they ask for directions…..and follow them………since they do not KNOW where they are, they do not then proceed to argue with the person providing the directions, nor do they seek to converse with “others” whose stated position is to “also being LOST”……for the purpose of ” arguing the directions” they have just been given.

    I’m a teacher by profession and at heart, if people don’t understand my thoughts through words, than I’ve failed.

    Good for you…….so other than the logical fallacy you have just attempted, have you returned the portion of the money you were paid for those students that failed your courses? Partial refunds for all grades that were below 100%, A+ or 4.0? ( I, on the other hand, will be quite happy to return everything you have paid for our time together, since you are unhappy with the result……… )

    I constantly read, I’m not illiterate, a good communicator, and I have to read everything you write at least twice to just understand what your point might be.

    From what I can tell, that seems to be either too much or too little, because it’s not working.

    Please get off any high horse you find yourself on in your perceived “role” on this site and try to make more sense. With that said, let’s move on.

    Certainly, grasshopper……the customer is always right.

    Money can be divided up beyond just the currency role you’re defending so heavily.
    I am not defending anything……..you are responding to, two different posts……..and what I intended has been explained.

    That doesn’t include people’s savings/checking accounts, money market funds, CDs, etc…Just because there’s not enough actual currency to “use $ as wall-paper”, that doesn’t diminish Bob’s example. If you want to be semantic about it;

    Actually it does……..and you are the one who is being semantic…..so I will repeat my explanation and expand it to whatever you believe Mr. Livingston might be referring to………the word “currency” was used to mean “currency”……..( stay with me now ) and there is not enough “currency” to fill wheel barrows, so that scenario WILL NOT HAPPEN! So that’s it……done, finished through……..now on to your semantics.

    When the rest of the world decides to not accept US dollars anymore, Americans will be able to “use $, bonds, checks, traveler cheques, small CDs, and large CDs, as wall-paper”. As of 2009 they would have $8.3 trillion to do it with, or $25,429/person. But, there are two problems with this number; one, it doesn’t include any of the QEs, other bailouts, nor the $16trillion given to foreign banks last year.

    So for you, currency is not currency………btw how many of these instruments do you have in YOUR POSSESSION? Why not include stock certificates, bonds, etc.?

    Just to be “clear” a hyperinflation scenario does require actual currency, or sufficient time to “print” the actual currency…….and while it might be possible to use “other instruments”, there a two problems……..one, they are not generally in circulation……and most people would be “unfamiliar” with them……..so they would have a “credibility” problem……..as in, how do you know or would you know they were in fact genuine instruments, and how could you determine their actual value?

    When “gold” was the actual backing……of the “currency”, then hyperinflation can occur………but the government, has to comply in some manner for this scenario to proceed……….to counter this situation in the U.S. after 1929, when the U.S. was on the “gold standard” and controlled 80% of the worlds gold supply……the solution was simple………it simply, stopped conversion, and confiscated the gold in exchange for “currency”. For those who had actually gold, this exchange for them…….incurred a loss of 300%, as they only received 25% of the “official price” of gold, at the time. This “official price” still exists…….as the U.S. still mints gold coins, which are now “legal tender”, and it is not an accident, that the 1 oz coin, carries a denomination of $50 dollars………

    In any case, the government can take any number of steps to prevent hyperinflation……..in any form…….simply by instituting wage and price controls and “limiting” withdrawals…….to fixed amounts within certain time frames…….certain adjustments would occur, and other means of transaction would be used…….but the goal is to prevent PANIC………and what comes with it.

    And two, this information comes directly from the Federal Reserve and I don’t trust their numbers.

    You can trust whomever you like…….that is not an argument…….if you wish to dispute the “numbers” then produce the “evidence”? That is, if in your role as a “teacher by profession”, you understand what “evidence is” and why it is “required”?
    I see no point in arguing a gold standard with you (yet)

    and I completely agree with you.

    or where to point the blame during the Great Depression (although, both Greenspan and Bernake have written words blaming the federal reserve system at one point).

    Which federal reserve system? The one before 1932, when the currency was backed by gold and or silver and redeemable in it?

    The one after 1932, when the currency was backed by gold and silver, and redeemable in “lawful money” at any federal reserve bank?

    The one after 1960, when the currency became legal tender, and was backed by the “full faith and credit” of the U.S.?

    Those people in the Austrian school you so easily brush aside explain economics very clearly. Economics from an Austrian perspective is an easy process to understand, as it should be!

    Except that Economic’s is not understood by anyone, since it is “invalid”……..empirically and as a “discipline”………the Austrian school, is a subset of a subset…….of Economics……….which is based on the “concept” of “hard money”……..and you are quite right, it is very simple to understand…….and it doesn’t work.

    Understanding why that is true, is not so simple and it DOES REQUIRE WORK. As a “teacher by profession”, you can imagine how much easier it was to convey a world which was flat, and governed by the elements of earth, air, fire and water, and where everything revolved around it, and where gods and magic explained all. As it turned out, things were not quite that simple…….

    Which is why people (high-schoolers even!) with no background are becoming interested in politics and economics. Money is not complicated. Unless you create a system based on a false idea of what money is, ie. “money not chosen by the people, but forced onto them”.

    Why? I mean it’s all so SIMPLE……RIGHT? Except for the fact that it doesn’t work and never has worked and it not working NOW? Which poses another question……..”Is our children learning?” not to mention the added questions of “what” and “from whom” and “to what ends?” K.I.S.S.?

    Studying Keynesian economics (I imagine that’s your area of expertise)

    Do you imagine that? Why? neither Adam Smith nor Keynes is taught anywhere……….although an “interpretation” of Keynes work, published in 1936 is……….which should raise some questions for you, but only if you can comprehend what has ( actually ) just been said……..

    and the mountain of formulas and equations created for this theory in the last 80 years, is very difficult to understand, because it’s not based in common sense or reality, unless of course you studied it in university. Economics, money, and monetary policy should not only be accessible for the PhDs out there.

    Actually less time than that……..and all of those “formula’s” were to advance the “discipline” of “economics”…….for the purpose of elevating it to the same level as other “scientific disciplines”……and you are correct………it does not reflect “reality”…….but “common sense” will not help you understand THIS, anymore than it will help you understand “gravity”, “quantum theory”, “evolution” or any other “scientific discipline”……..which do “quantify” and reflect REALITY, for those that DO seek to understand it, empirically.

    Thanks for the list of books. Is there one in particular? I will ALWAYS follow a trail, but will not spend my time on more than one until I’m convinced the juice is worth the squeeze.

    We are obviously on different paths……..of trails, and therefor what you see as REALITY……( or what you are content with seeing ) is far different than my understanding or what I am content with, have been or will be.
    So, if wish wish to understand my reality, you need to read all of them and everything else I have recommended and will. ( recommend )

    However, from what I can tell, the one that will be most useful for YOU……( as e.i. P.L.F……….and “unpaid guide” ) I would suggest, Debt: The First 5000 Years………which will give the the actual evidence and history of economics………which is not contained, addressed or understood, by any subset of the “faux discipline”, with the exception of those in the “profession” who are beginning to understand this, and who are author’s of the other books on the list.

    By the way, have you read any of the books that have been posted on this site from the vonMises institute?

    I have read the “original authors” upon which the current variation of that subset relies……….but the only value of reading the “particular” link or links, would be to “invalidate” the claims of DavidH in his ….. attempt to use these as “logical fallacies”………you will find an excerpt from the book Econned below, used to counter just such an attempt, as the “excerpts” were used here………..apparently, some have difficulty reading “excerpts” or distinguishing what are “excerpts” and the links to them, as well as what they are being used for, and the what is being said by the person, in conjunction with them. ( i.e. most of my original post “were excerpts” with a link…and a search suggestion….and already explained…..my actual words were few.)

    This is probably the result of the desire for simplicity and the belief that “common sense” has any value, other than for dealing with that which is both truly common and simple.

    As for “our conversation” and however you choose to interpret it or respond, you can now choose the “path” to your own “history” with me, or choose to have none at all………this will not alter, my path regarding “others” who have already made that choice and seek to continue it……….and if that is the basis upon which you are in fact going to make your choice, then at this point, there is nothing more I can do except to “accept your decision” and respond accordingly in the future should such occasion arise……..

    “To conquer, first DIVIDE!” ( and then HANG, separately. )

    P.S. I will check back to see if you actually have read this……any response will do.

    • Mr.Ben

      I have to say Galt, you make a lot more sense, mono y mono, than when I’ve tried to follow other conversations of yours I was not a part of. To read your style of writing is like learning a new dialect Sorry to have brought my past impressions to the table OUR first time around. I do look forward to a future history of rhetoric with you. We’ll see who hangs after!

      • GALT

        Until then……..take care.

    • Mr.Ben

      Galt, I am beginning to understand your economic theory better. I am only about 20% into the book, but didn’t want to continue without putting my thoughts into comment form.

      To sum up what I’ve read; the last 5000 years have seen two types of money, first came credit (5000-2000BC, 400-1400AD), then coin (2000BC-400AD, 1400-1971AD). Trade and commerce did not begin with Aristotle or Adam Smiths “myth of barter”, but began because of kings/governments collection of taxes. The act of collecting taxes put unnecessary coin into people’s hands so they could return it to the king/government, and the side effects were markets springing up where coin happened to be. What we call “money” isn’t a “thing” at all. It’s a way of comparing things mathematically. Except, instead of using the common denominator of “gold”, “credit” should be used. Mitchell-Innes and Keynes both believed that since credit historically came first and was created by the state, it was their “primordial right” to authorize the issuance of money. During the periods of coin there was always a cultural & complicated relationship between the creditor and the debtor. Historically, when times became difficult and there was class warfare (or even just a holiday), the debtor was the one who was protected, making the mantra of “one must pay ones debts” a recent phenomena. From 1971 – present, we have a system of coin where the creditor is protected. That is about what I’ve learned in the first 60 pages. Correct?

      Now, onto your post. “a hyperinflation scenario does require actual currency, or sufficient time to “print” the actual currency”. Do other instruments that represent dollars abroad carry no weight in a hyperinflation America? If and when the dollar loses its reserve value and status, will our “creditors” be forced to keep our debt? Will they not try to liquidate their dollar debt? From what I’ve read about the “liquidation effect” on inflation, regardless if the money is in currency or any other form, inflation will have to increase. Are you saying that currency, and ONLY currency can push inflation to hyperinflation levels?

      I disagree with your position, and Graebers, on golds role as money. When “gold” was the actual backing of the “currency”, then hyperinflation can occur. This is only true when credit is advanced beyond golds support, i.e. the Federal Reserve increased credit by 60% in the decade leading up to the Depression. If you look at the average rate of inflation 100 years before 1913, you see a fluctuation of +-0.9%. The only years inflation reached outlier status were the “greenback” years during the civil war, up until 1879 when the gold standard was returned. But the government, has to comply in some manner for this scenario to proceed. Correct, the Federal Reserve system is not possible without government support. To counter this situation in the U.S. after 1929, when the U.S. was on the “gold standard” and controlled 80% of the worlds gold supply……the solution was simple………it simply, stopped conversion, and confiscated the gold in exchange for “currency”. And as you mentioned, this “solution” was THEFT of those holding gold, although, you didn’t put it into those words. Your actual words on this matter incurred a loss of 300% left me thinking that this confiscation of wealth was OK? I don’t know where 300% came from. I do know that FDR forced people to sell their gold at about $20/oz then boosted the prices to $35/oz, about a 75% loss, and with those profits began to create Big government as we know it today.

      In any case, the government can take any number of steps to prevent hyperinflation……..in any form…….simply by instituting wage and price controls and “limiting” withdrawals…….to fixed amounts within certain time frames…….certain adjustments would occur, and other means of transaction would be used…….but the goal is to prevent PANIC………and what comes with it.

      As far as I can tell, you 100% agree with the theory that since money is governments creation, they can do as they please with it, after all, what does the average person know of money? Regardless of money evolving from credit, does not make physical money any less important to the modern individual. Money/credit for the average worker is, 1/3 of their daily hours, 1/3 of their energy output, and 99% of their means of survival. To belittle that significance and allow for a king/government to regulate and control money as they see fit, IS to de-evolve and belittle hard work and innovation. Graeber furnishes his book with stories about places and times of how money/credit was used, how items were exchanged, even how kings set up systems that were used for centuries, but in most examples it was the PEOPLE and their COMMUNITIES who regulated their own debt and credit. When the head-of-state did regulate it with an iron fist, they called it fascism. Graeber states that, “economics assumes a division among different spheres of human behaviors, that does simply not exist”. The regulation of the economy that Keynes and Graeber are defending, ASSUMES an economic division exists. Money/credit needs to be controlled by the people, regardless of its origins. If a community wants to use credit or gold, it is their decision. No federal government should institute price and wage controls, nor limit withdrawals, for 350 million people. I call that economic fascism. Which brings me to my last point.

      What first drew me to Austrian economics was praxeology. This idea draws economics out of the realm of the “natural sciences” and places it among the “social sciences”. You say, all of those “formula’s” were to advance the “discipline” of “economics”…….for the purpose of elevating it to the same level as other “scientific disciplines”……and you are correct………it does not reflect “reality”…….but “common sense” will not help you understand THIS, anymore than it will help you understand “gravity”, “quantum theory”, “evolution” or any other “scientific discipline”……..which do “quantify” and reflect REALITY, for those that DO seek to understand it, empirically. Keynes, Mitchell-Innes, and yourself, believe that economics CAN be understood through observable science, after all, government created the market, therefore, they should be able to control it. Austrian economists believe that no scientist can predict how an individual will react with his money. Physics, biology, chemistry, these are scientific disciplines that can be observed, tested, and repeated, therefore understood. But try to observe and predict what 100 people will do in good times or bad times with their money, and their actions will be random, stupid, wise, thrifty….in short, unpredictable. This reasoning puts economics outside of the “observable sciences”, and the reason why I believe it’s easy for “even a high school student to understand”. How humans will act (what ends they will seek) in a “complex” situation cannot arise from studying how they acted in “simple” situations. There are limits to how much can be learned from even a “simple situation”. In criticism of the empirical studies that seek to find justification in the economic action of individuals, Libertarians propose that only the human actor knows the ends toward which they act. An acting man is defined as “one capable of voluntary and conscious behavior”—to be otherwise would be to put humans on the same plane as animals who simply reacts to stimuli by instinct. To try and take this freedom away from us, as is done through THIS FORM of economics, is to debase our liberty and freedom.

      I am enjoying this book. It has changed what I thought I knew about economic history, but only confirmed my position, so far, on gold as the common denominator of money vs. credit. However, I realize that I have put gold on a pedestal and that the key to a peaceful civilization is to not have money at all. Money IS the common denominator of evils in the world, but until we have an example of a modern society where individuals live as equals w/o money, it is better to leave the issuance power of money in the hands of the individual/communities/counties/districts/states, not the nation-states, central banks, nor the Bank for International Settlements.

      • GALT

        For Mr. Ben,

        I was surprised to see a response from you, so quickly…..I have just conducted
        another detailed exercise with Frank, above…….probably not worth my time, but you
        might want to take a look……..because you use this phrase…..

        “Galt, I am beginning to understand your economic theory better.”

        and the reason I recommended this “volume”…….is because what we are discussing
        is my “understanding” of “economics”, not my theory. Graeber is an “anthropologist” so
        this book deals with the “physical evidence” that has been found…..which deals with
        what was the basis for the “economies” that did exist……in early civilizations, specifically
        with regards to the aspects of barter, credit and money…..and the role of debt and usury.

        While you no doubt have questions, it is a bit early to start addressing them……but
        a bit of a re-direct might be useful here regarding what you have written.

        1.) Money in the form of “coinage” does not appear until 800 to 600 b.c. and
        it primary function to finance “military conquest”…….prior to this, economies were
        “credit” based systems……..( clay tablet records or instruments ) so that “debt” was
        a matter of “record”……..

        2.) These credit systems were “unstable” because “debt” ( and credits ) also
        included “interest” on this “debt”…….a.k.a. “usury”…….and this, all by itself
        was enough to “collapse” the “economy” ( sound familiar ) so a “solution” was
        needed…..because “collapse” benefits no one………and as crazy at this might
        seem, out right “forgiveness” was the only thing that worked. ( given the alternative )

        3.) The book deals with the various methods of this “forgiveness”…..for which
        all manner of evidence exists…..from Hammurabi’s Code, to the Torah and other
        “physical evidence”……..but until “money surfaces as coinage”……..civilization
        consists of “city centers” whose ‘economies’ radiate outward……while conflict exists,
        it is localized and territorial……….the idea of “empire and conquest”……is
        synonymous with “money as coin”…..and begins in 800 b.c…….which is not to
        say that gold, silver, copper, as commodities did not exist……but they were not
        used as a “medium of exchange”….which is what “money” IS!….( in economic theory ).

        This book is a “history” of the “evidence” of “economies”……and how they were
        “managed” and the success or failure of the “centers” involved…….focused on the
        central idea of “debt” and the various cultural adaptations to it……..with or without, the various elements of barter, money, credit, debt or usury. ( and slavery and
        involuntary servitude, etc. )

        All of these things set the stage for what has “evolved” into what is “understood”
        as “modern economic theory”……..and most of this is “not known”, by those
        who are “engaged” in discussing it…….which is why I recommended it.

        Hopefully, you will forgive me for leaving it there…….at least for now,…..

  • http://twitter.com/dianalehua Diana Lehua (@dianalehua)

    Galt, did you know that Greenspan believed in the Gold Standard? He wrote Gold and Economic Freedom in the 60s. Many years later he was asked if he still believed what he wrote. He said, “Yes, every word of it.” http://constitution.org/mon/greenspan_gold.htm

    • GALT

      Yes, Diana I am aware……and a disciple of Ayn Rand also……unfortunately Greenspan
      spent the rest of his life saying a whole lot about nothing and complimented Bill Clinton
      on having the ability to understand him……..in the end, what he claimed to believe and when he believed it are essentially irrelevant. He didn’t know very much and whatever
      he “believed” he KNEW, was WRONG.

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