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The Bible Vs. The Building Code: Which Is More Important?

July 16, 2012 by  

The Bible Vs. The Building Code: Which Is More Important?
PHOTOS.COM
In addition to jail time and probation, Michael Salman was fined $12,180 for conducting a Bible study in his home.

City officials in Phoenix arrived at the conclusion that Michael Salman was putting people’s lives in jeopardy by conducting a Bible study at his home. He was found guilty of 67 building code violations and sentenced to 60 days in jail and three years of probation. Plus, he was hit with a $12,180 fine.

It all started in 2007 when neighbors complained about the increase in traffic on the street. Salman, a restaurant owner and pastor, began having Bible studies in his home in 2005. After the neighbors’ complaint, Salman was harangued by local authorities on more than one occasion. According to Salman, city officials told him he would need a permit in order to have non-family members into his home for a spiritual purpose.

So in 2009, Salman constructed a building on their 4.6 acre lot and applied for all the permits he thought he would need. “At that point we took our Bible study from our living room — and we moved it into that building,” he recalled. “We started worshipping in that building every weekend.”

But according to Vicki Hill, the chief assistant city prosecutor, Salman fudged the facts. Hill claims that Salman was given a permit to convert his garage into a game room. Therefore, in Hill’s words, any other use for the building would be “expressly prohibited.”

A dozen police along with city inspectors raided Salman’s home on June 11, 2009. Police forced the couple and their five young girls to stay in the living room while the building used to seat 40 Bible students was searched. After thoroughly checking the area, inspectors cited 67 code violations.

“Imagine everything that a public building would have or a commercial building would have,” Salman remembered. “Anything we didn’t have was a violation.”

This included not having handicap parking, handicap ramps and exit signs over the doors.

Hill claims that Salman was operating a church; therefore, he must abide by building codes or face the consequences. But the part-time pastor sees it as an attack on his personal liberty.

“At what point does the government have the right to state that you cannot have family and friends over at your home three times a week? People have a right to gather on their property as long as parking is available, as long as they aren’t parking in the street, as long as they aren’t violating noise ordinances.”

So far, the courts have sided with Hill.

Salman has tried to point out the inconsistencies in the court’s logic.

“If I had people coming to my home on a regular basis for poker night or Monday Night Football, it would be permitted. But when someone says to us we are not allowed to gather because of religious purposes — that is when you have discrimination.”

Because Salman made an effort to abide by the law, he is being punished. Such is the situation we find ourselves in. Those who have no respect for laws and ordinances fly under the radar, while those who make an attempt to abide by them provide the totalitarian state with another name to put on file.

Bryan Nash

Staff writer Bryan Nash has devoted much of his life to searching for the truth behind the lies that the masses never question. He is currently pursuing a Master's of Divinity and is the author of The Messiah's Misfits, Things Unseen and The Backpack Guide to Surviving the University. He has also been a regular contributor to the magazine Biblical Insights.

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  • Vicki

    THe OP writes”
    ““At what point does the government have the right to state that you cannot have family and friends over at your home three times a week?”

    Answer. NEVER. First it is a power not a right. Government has only powers that are delegated to it by The People. People have rights AND powers. We delegate SOME powers to government.

    At what point does the government have the POWER to state that you cannot have family and friends over. Never. Freedom of Association is a long cherished and not sufficiently protected right just as Freedom of speech is. It has long been held that freedom of speech protections is not restricted to just Congress (“Congress shall make no law…….”) but is a protection of all citizens from government at the state and local level as well.

    • Flashy

      Imagine the neighbors. they must be going nuts. A building code and land use ordinances are for a purpose. To use the guise of a church to avoid safety, health and neighborhood livability is so wrong…especially when one used subterfuge to avoid building codes and expenses in the first place. What of the 40 odd people who inmhabit a building with suh code violations? if a fire or some other disaster occurs (say someone runs over a young child playing in HER formerly quiet sedate neighborhood…or a neighbor gets irate at the plummeting value of HIS/HER property and goes ‘postal”?)…. will the avoidance of responsibility then be because some christian god permitted it ?

      y’all go nuts when an Islamic Center is proposed in the Lower East end of Manhanttan…simply because it was a few blocks from Ground Zero (not even in sight of it). What if this was an Islamic House of Worship? Or Flashy’s Church for Wayward Girls and Soiled Women? Y’all be as supportive ? i doubt it.

      Jeesh…just because some christian fanatic decides they are more important than everyone else simply because they worship a certain deity and use a work of fiction as the rule of gospel law…doesn’t mean they are.

      • dan

        you’ve got some valid points…this has got to be nipped in the bud ! We must CONTROL!
        People have NO IDEA how dangerous they are when they gather together in groups of
        two or more. Why…if this goes unchallenged they may be gathering in stadiums for games and in the park for concerts next. There ought to be a law…and send in the goons…er…LEOs to enforce those codes. Where’s the propriety and dignity …the respect for the powers that be enacting those codes ? (sarc :) )

      • Nadzieja Batki

        How do you know he is a “charismatic fanatic”? We are supposed to believe what you say because you said it?

      • steve

        i guess you must be well read on the bible to call it fiction. this book has been around for 2000 yrs. what do you have to debate if it’s true or not, your opinion? so i guess some 2 billion people are wrong for following the bibles teaching, right! atleast in your mind they are but maybe i’m dealing with the 3rd perfect person ever , GOD jesus and you.

      • phideaux

        ” what do you have to debate if it’s true or not, your opinion? ”

        Thats all Flashy the lier ever has, his opinion.

      • CEO

        Flashed

        No one was forced to enter the structure. They have eyes to see and determine for themselves without government edict as to the risk involved by entering the facility.

      • http://gravatar.com/turingschild turingschild

        ABUSE of building codes by bureaucrats to force handicapped facilities when there are no handicapped visitors merely highlights that this is an attempt to halt Free Association. You complain about church services being held, but I wonder if you would be as bureaucratic toward a group of college party people showing up three times a week. Say, oh, 200 or so?

      • http://gravatar.com/wandamurline wandamurline

        If it was an islamic church, the citywould have looked the other way…you simply cannot make the islamists mad, lest they decide to k ill you. So don’t go there…..Islam is not a religion, it is a cult. And in the 1980′s under Slick Willie Bill Clinton, Janet Reno torched a building that held women and children….those people had done nothing….theylived on their own land and as established by the Constitution, had guns at their disposal. Theywere hurting no one, but the Gestapo Reno at Ruby Ridge, tore down their home, etc. Yes, they were probably a cult, but she had no right to m u r d e r innocent people as she did, under the direction of the president.

      • TIME

        Oh my Dear Flashed,

        WOW just how special you are.
        Its obvious in your own mind as you have clearly displayed in the text of your post – by your own admission you have never been to a home where more than 20 – 30 people have gathered.

        In school you had to be a Billion times the NURD I was!
        I at least was invited to many partys, even with my a total NURD.
        Most of the partys I went to had far more than 50 people at them..

        OMG — what codes were broken by a NURD like me, let alone the people who had these damm partys! The gaul of these people!

        The idea that your land is your’s in your mind is 100% totaly wrong – that again by your own admission.

        So we now all know that you don’t have any friends, you don’t ever go anywhere or do anything so you live in a vast void of nothing-ness, again all by your own admissions within your post.

        WOW – that really must be special for you.
        Hey really – Thanks for letting everyone know just how totaly boring you really are, let alone what a total control freak you are too!

        I bet you also follow the Golden Rule of:
        “Do as I tell you – not as I do.”

        Man I just love it when yet one more self absorbed self important person like yourself steps up to the plate to inform us of your SPECIAL-NESS.

        Hey you know there’s a term for that type of behavior just so you know; Its called “Passive Agressive.”
        Oddly also – 99.99999% of all Passive Agressives are also known to find jobs where they get to be “Petty Tyrants” too.
        Good on Ya!

        Peace and Love

      • Flashy

        Time…

        being at a gathering of 30 or more in a house a time or two does not constitute every frippin’ Sunday having that many and more show up.

        You are correct in that I do not believe, and I don’t think you believe, you have the right to do 100% with whatever you want with your property. I believe you have the right to do 100% of whatever you want AS LONG AS it does not affect the value of your neighbor’s property and their reasonable expectations of peace and enjoyment thereon.

      • Robert Smith

        “Christian” public officials and neighbors have been inflicting this kind of garbage on Pagans for decades.

        Rob

      • momo

        If it was a house full of illegal aliens Flashman would be complaining about the police raiding the house.

      • Kinetic1

        CEO,
        “They have eyes to see and determine for themselves without government edict as to the risk involved by entering the facility.”
        Really? Ask one of these people if the studs were 16″ on center. How many outlets were on each breaker? Were there any hidden junction boxes? Were wires spliced together here and there? How about the foundation? Were there any cracks? Was it poured on sufficiently packed earth?

        Watch one episode of “Holmes on homes” on HGTV and tell me about how an average person can judge the safety of a building by sight.

      • http://gravatar.com/bychoosing Jay

        Kinetic1, those are idiotic questions, as the structure would not have been approved for habitation in the first place, regardless of number of occupants, if the items you listed did not pass code. Therefore, your argument, is silly.

    • steve

      i read another article about this mans building woes and he is guilty of not following state building codes., he ignored the inspectors request to make the changes that were needed to finish his projects . as a state liscense residental builder in sc , the last thing you want is to have the inspectors against you. he is guity of this and he now pays the price . the bible says to count your cost before you build and he did’nt do this . now he brings GOD into the picture by having bible lessions in a building that he did not get certificate of occupancy by the building office and expects everything to slide thru. wrong. i wonder how GOD feels about being put into the middle of a situation like this.

      • dan

        I’m sorry,but you have flagrantly disregarded several common spelling codes and shall henceforth be severely chastised…one more infraction and you WILL be disciplined.

      • Ted Crawford

        YES, we know Steve, only you, the illustrious ‘licensed contractor’ posses the mystical knowledge required to create a structure, suitable for human occupation! We the unwashed, unlicensed, are devoid of such knowledge, despite over 45 years in the construction industry !
        These wonderful ‘Licensed contractors’ have the building codes so numerous, and obfusicating that they are not understandable to most! Everything now requires a “Building Permit “, even a four foot by four foot by four inch concrete slab for holding a trash recepticle!
        You hire a ” Licensed Contractor ” and your siding my be misaliened, or the covebase might not be mittered correctly, despite the hugh expence to build it, BUT, it will be Code Compliant, that is unless the Inspector pockets are a little heavier upon leaving than they were when he entered !

      • Karolyn

        Well, then, Ted, run for office and change things, or start a movement to change things if you don’t like it. You are just like everybody else, including me. We all bitch about the way things are but how many of us take real steps to change anything?

      • Ted Crawford

        You misunderstand Karolyn. I am involved and have been since 1968. Passively, voting only, untill I recovered from my injuries in 1973, very, very actively from then on!Unfortunitly circumstance has landed me in the Socialist Republic of Illinois! These poor people here prove, everyday, that they have earned their inclusion in the exclusive Category created for them by L’Umanita !
        Might explain why we are at the bottom of the heap in State Solvency !

      • steve

        ted not every contractor is bad but just like in any field there are bad apples . so now you want to label all as one . brilliant. you want to hire someone that cares about your house and is not in it for just the money. do your home work and ask around for opinions on who you are chosing before you hire someone. call the state builders board and find how many complaints the contractor has if any. and never take the low bid, never. and never put down more than 10% unless you have to pay for special order material. that’s the best i can give you now do your home work . one more word of advice, don’t make the final payment untill you are satisfied and if the contractor put a lein on you house before he starts fire him. he has credit problems.

      • steve

        and dan, i’m sorry i have spelling problems . if that’s the best you can find fault in me than i’m doing better than i thought.

      • coal miner 1

        Robert Smith says:

        July 16, 2012 at 1:04 pm

        “Christian” public officials and neighbors have been inflicting this kind of garbage on Pagans for decades”

        Rob
        Way to go,Robert.You hit the nail on the head.

      • terris

        I don’t understand. Why didn’t simply follow the building codes and the laws? Also, most states have a website to LOL up contractors licenses and see f they have had any complaints against them.

      • http://gravatar.com/bychoosing Jay

        Robert Smith says: July 16, 2012 at 1:04 pm

        “Christian” public officials and neighbors have been inflicting this kind of garbage on Pagans for decades”

        Way to go, Robert. Keep the “Inquisition” going!

    • Kinetic1

      Vicki,
      If Mr. Salman had sought and received the necessary permits to build a church or meeting hall on his property, then I might agree with you. As it stands, this is not an attack on his right to assemble, but on his right to violate the building and/or zoning code of his area.

      • Vicki

        The codes of which directly violate his right to peaceably assemble.

    • truesoy

      Vicki;

      Not withstanding their right to free religious practices, they should not interfere with the quality of life of the neighbors. just tnink of what it would be like if once or twice per week, because of the large gathering of worshippers, you could not pull in and/or out of your drive way.
      Besides, if one house is allowed to become a house of worship for one religion, then the city will have to allow it for all others, and thus nullifying the local ordinance.

      Sincerely,
      Truesoy

  • David

    The first steps toward persecution have been taken. Christians are now being singled out for harassment and discrimination. America has lost, the minority has won. Time to stand your ground people! Time to turn your plows into swords!

    • Flashy

      Jeesh…you have got to be kidding.

      Well..I guess with all the support he’s getting here, y’all have accepted Christians lie and give no thought to their neighbors. It’s all about them and everyone else can go suffer …

      Time to open up Flashy’s Church for Wayward Girls and Soiled Women. Mr. Livingston, when the pickets show up (most likely those of the christian church next door ) …will you be running the story about how these poor souls of the Flashy Faith are being kept from their place of worship and how the Flashy church is being discriminated against?

      • Proud to be a Believer

        Flashy, do you have an idea how large 4.5 acres of land is? I doubt it.

      • Flashy

        Proud.Yep. It’s 196,020 sq. ft. About enough to hold one cow through the growing season. I know well about acreage. Do you know the lot dimensions to give a better idea of ingress/egress and the lot line setbacks?

    • Karolyn

      Please! Poor Christians! You hold most of the votes, don’t you? It would have been the same outcome if any type of group did the same thing.

      • Flashy

        Karolyn….do you have the dame feeling i have that should a parish of Flashys Church for Wayward Girls and Soil women opened close to their abode, it would be packed to the rafters as these folks jostled for a good seat for when the choir performs? Of course, their wives might look askance at the suddeness of their interest in the faith…but somehow i think they’d find reasons to maintain the Sunday vigil …

      • Whit

        I would bet if the structure had been erected for use by those of Islam, it would have never been bothered. Most likely Obama would have intervened with an executive order.

      • http://gravatar.com/bychoosing Jay

        Sadly Whit, i would have to agree with you.

      • truesoy

        Karoly ;

        The problem here is that many christians, normally the diehard conservatives, norm suffer from the ‘persecution’ syndrome, and therefore anytime they are not allowed to do as they please they feel persecuted.

        Sincerely,
        Truesoy

      • http://gravatar.com/bychoosing Jay

        Karolyn says: Please! Poor Christians! You hold most of the votes, don’t you?

        If that were true, this would be a no-issue, Karolyn! Let me guess, you failed logic -101?

  • Earth

    Well, that is the American dream, is it not?
    America, the slave Master.
    But we all vote, yes?
    Great.

  • http://PersonalLibertyalerts Beverly

    This sort of thing is happening all over the place and not just for religious reasons either. This Hill person is a liberal and when liberals gain power they punish people that don’t believe as they do. That’s what separates the liberals from consertives and the right. Consertives respect everyones choices and if they don’t agree or like those choices they say nothing and move on, liberals will create laws to force people to agree with them. Basically they are ignorant jerks.

    • Laith

      How about respecting the neighbors right not to be bothered with all this traffic every week? why don’t they hold the study group in a church building? they go to church don’t they?To compare this to super bowl party is ludicrous, there is one super bowl and 52 Sundays a year

    • Christin

      Beverly,

      I absolutely agree.

      The ‘Godless’ do as they please (including sinning) and help others to do so as well, even enacting rules and laws to allow many to follow the dark side or evil one.

      The ‘God fearing’ try to do what is right as God has commanded us to do and the dark side puts a stop to all that we must and wish to do to glorify God…. pray at a public function, read the Bible in school, tell others about the saving Grace of Jesus in a town square (let alone mentioning the name of Jesus or Lord or God), openly discuss religion with family and friends, post the Ten Commandments, keep a cross in the desert, not pay for others’ abortions, …or even have a bible study at your own home on your own property..the Right to Assemble as stated in the 1st Amendment.

      Real justice will come to those who deny God.
      (Not that kind in the courts… which is just catching and charging a financial amount [to pay for local city spending needs] for their crime or offense of the numberous freedomless ‘gotcha laws’.)

  • http://gravatar.com/bychoosing Jay

    Why do the liberals hate Christians? One reason is because we have the audacity to proclaim openly that there are absolute truths.

    The only “absolute truth” that liberals seem to believe is that bible believing Christians are the purveyors of the worst plague of destruction the universe has ever encountered.

    They call us “haters” when in truth it is they who hate us.

    They have an interesting definition of hate. There definition is the following.

    If you disagree with our position and morality, it is not because you have a different view that could possibly make sense, it is simply because you hate us. Now what they do not understand is that a difference in world view is not automatically hate.

    The reason we speak out against things like sexual immorality is because we know from the bible that it leads to many social problems. And guess what people….no one in their right mind can say that the rampant sexual immorality since the 1960′s has not led to major social problems like single mothers, breakdown in family relationships, increased drug use, sexually transmitted diseases, and an increase in people taking drugs just to try and cope with all the emotional pain that immorality has caused.

    There is perhaps no greater contrast concerning an ability to be a blessing or a curse than that of sexuality.

    It is God who invented this most powerful form of intimacy. Within the confines of the Creators purpose for it, there is no superior form of human communion.

    The contrast is not so, for sexuality that is outside of God’s purpose, there is only emotional, spiritual, and often physical ruin. So powerful is the passion, it often blinds of the consequences that are so clearly seen in our so called “liberated” society.

    Does this mean that Christians are not tempted? Does it mean that Christians are perfect?

    No it does not mean that. It means that Christians understand that sin is destructive to individuals and society. To pretend that sexual immorality is no big deal is not being intellectually honest. Sin is not simply an action of disobedience pertaining to a single evil deed. It is much more than that.

    Sin is a condition that every person is born in to. It is the disposition that believers and unbelievers alike are tainted by.

    The difference between the believer and the unbeliever is a matter of spiritual legal standing, not a matter of personal perfection one over the other.

    The believer simply has been pardoned of the eternal penalty of sin by the act of Christ on the cross. It is the imputation of the perfection of Christ that changes the believer in to a position of innocent spiritual legal standing.

    It is the unbeliever who is sadly left in the mire of his own sinful legal position before God due to his incredulous rejection of the pardon provided by Christ to those who receive him personally.

    Liberals will not admit the failure of their philosophy because to do so would be a vindication of what Preachers have been warning of for 40 years.

    There is never a mention of the wonderful works done by true Christians around the world. The liberals look as hard as they can to find something to make their case against Christians. Any wrong thing said or scandal that may happen in a Christian Leaders life, and liberals, like sharks who smell blood encircle with great delight as they justify their own immorality by pronouncing the failure of a Christian. Once they pounce like rabid dogs they then translate that that into discrediting the message of the bible.

    That is not logical. For example, if a person says it is wrong to be a racist and then it is discovered that person is himself a racist does that make the truth that he proclaimed not true?

    Christians are feeding the hungry, and bringing needed medical help to the poor. In our own country we see compassionate outpouring of aid for Katrina victims that came from Christian churches and organizations.

    This is a fact but liberals will not acknowledge the great work done by true caring Christians.

    Another reason why liberals hate Christians is simply because liberals do not understand the gospel. They think that we are saying that human moral perfection is what we demand from people.

    Let me make this clear to those of you who are liberal and reading this.

    The teachings of Jesus and His Apostles never proclaim our ability as humans to live in perfection. In fact the bible teaches us the following:

    “If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.” -1 John 1:8-10

    The message of Christ was and is that all people are sinners and that we do not have the ability to live in total perfection ourselves. You see if we were perfect we would not have need of the Savior. Jesus saves us by paying the price for our sin and freeing us from being condemned to separation from him for eternity.

    My point is that liberals think wrong about our position. When we speak out against immorality we are not saying that we are perfect. We are saying that immorality is immorality and all people including Christians are guilty of failing to be perfect.

    It is the position that liberals take that immorality is somehow not immoral that is the problem. Christians understand and acknowledge their own need for the Savior and so it is not us who are self righteous. We are the ones who have humbled ourselves and realized that we are not personally righteous.

    It is the very act of receiving Jesus as our personal Savior that speaks of our willingness to admit our own sinful nature as humans. If you do not think that you need the Savior what you are saying is that you are righteous in yourself and therefore you are self righteous.

    The following are the ten reasons why liberals hate Christians:

    1) Liberals are relativists and hate Christians because Christians believe in absolute truth.

    2) Liberals do not want anyone to say that immorality is immoral.

    3) Liberals are selfish and are more interested in their “feelings” then they are with what is right for others.

    4) Liberals misunderstand what Christians really believe.

    5) Since liberals see themselves as the superior enlighten ones they do not recognize that taking a position against their position is not automatically hate.

    6) Liberals do not want to listen to what makes sense, they would rather listen to their senses.

    7) Liberals ignore the clear evidence of the result of their philosophical positions influence on the last 40 years. It had been a social disaster and they do not want to hear it.

    8) They see Christians as intellectually inferior.

    9) Liberals see Christians as wanting to impose their religion on them when in truth it is the liberals who have used the courts system to impose their secular humanism religion on all of us.

    10) Liberals are spiritually lost and blind to the truth of the gospel. Consider the following bible verses:

    “But the natural man receives not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.” – 1 Corinthians 2:14

    Who is a liar but he that denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denies the Father and the Son. Whosoever denies the Son, the same has not the Father: but he that confesses the Son has the Father also. -1 John 2:22-23

    I have no desire to purposely offend those of you who are liberals who may be reading this. I know however that it is impossible to speak the biblical truth and not offend you.

    You need Jesus just as I do and my hope is that someone reading this will understand their need as I did 24 years ago.

    I pray you open your heart and understand that the bible is comprised of wisdom that originates beyond this world.

    It is filled with instances of God given righteousness in addition to showing the futility of human wisdom.

    No text has been of superior influence in the direction of prosperity of spirit, soul, and body.

    With all that being true, it is only a blessing to those who humble themselves under its central proclamation of Jesus Christ as Lord. To all who reject its central message the bible will become a irritation in the end. For all that stand in reliance on self shall be judged by the biblical standard of moral perfection, and shall fail miserably.

    This realization will haunt their minds as they grasp their misjudgment and rejection of the way, the truth, and the life contained in it. Rather than lashing out with the same old swearing and personal attacks, open your heart to The Jesus of the bible, call on him to save you and he will.

    http://www.worldviewweekend.com/worldview-times/article.php?articleid=2062

    • Flashy

      “Why do the liberals hate Christians?”

      because they don’t keep thier frippin’ cutist beliefs private. They insist they have some frippin’ right to push their cultist beliefs on everyone else and then cry discrimination when people object to having the fiction forced upon them. And the people get kind of tired with the whining when they’re rejected and forced to play under the same rules as everyone else.

      Christians aren’t being discriminated against. People object to the insistence of christians everyone else but them be discriminated against.

      • Ted Crawford

        Interesting there Flashy . You imply, were they simply to keep their Christianity ” Private ” all would be well with you, YET, That’s all that was asked in the case of DADT. In that case it was an unacceptable demand it be kept private, ” We have a right to, openly, express our sexual preferences ” ! No double standard there is it !

      • Flashy

        Nope. Sexual preference is not a religion. My understanding is in the military, one may hold whatever religious beliefs they have without penalty. Sexual preference has nothing to do with religion…rather, it’s who a person is.

      • Chester

        Flashy, most of the time I at least halfway agree with you, but this time you went a bit too far in proclaiming to all and sundry that only Christians shove their faith and beliefs down your throat. Perhaps you have not been paying attention, but the Muslims are doing a most effective job of recruiting in our country as well. I will tell you from personal experience that you will find as many, if not more, Muslim missionaries working in our prisons than Christians, and they are having a great deal of success. I don’t know about you, but I much prefer living under the laws we have in effect now to living under Shariah law. It doesn’t take a lot of study of Shariah to find out you would have been executed long ago for defaming Mohammed. You see, under Shariah laws, it is a capital offense NOT to agree with every word ever spoken, or written, by Mohammed. Even worse is publicly admitting you don’t believe in him as the head of the religion.

      • Flashy

        Chester…as long as eveything is on the up and up, why shouldn’t a religion have the same opportunities as christians (assuming they come around to doing everything on the up and up)? According to the US Constitution, Sharia Law is not within the allowances under our form of government. Neither is biblical law. Nor Wiccan law. Nor Mormon Law etc etc And why shouldn’t Flashys Church for Wayward Girls and Soiled Women have the same rights and means to go forth and convert? And why should anyone be forced to agree that one faith is the ‘correct’ faith..especially when the different sects of that faith can’t agree to what is or is not “correct” ?

        Get past your fear of the Muslim bogeyman pushed by the American Taliban.

      • http://turingschild.wordpress.com turingschild

        That’s hilarious Flashy. Christians are now to keep their worship private, but when they TRY to, they get specious building code violations handed to them. I guess he should have kept his gathering at his restaurant. Would THAT have made you happy? :p

      • http://gravatar.com/bychoosing Jay

        ‘Give me the liberty to know, to utter, and to argue freely according to conscience, above all liberties’, proclaimed the seventeenth-century poet John Milton. To you, Flashy, it seems this fundamental liberty shouldn’t extend to those who’s views you dislike. Intolerant-bigot? Naw, not you Flash…

      • Flashy

        Jay…if i should buy the house next to yours, and open up Flashys Church for Wayward Girls and Soiled Women…(private “conversions” with parishioners available with donation) … you’d have no objection to the ….ummmm…parishioners that would be attending “services”.

        Right?

      • http://gravatar.com/bychoosing Jay

        Flashy, you assume too much, which feeds your fear, which feeds your hatred. We all hate that which we fear, especially if we don’t understand that which we fear. You are no different, and the explosive-vehement-vitriol that you have vomited so far, only confirms that you do not understand that which you fear and hate. Perhaps you should excuse yourself from the conversation, until such time as you regain you composure?

      • Vicki

        Flashy says:
        ” “Why do the liberals hate Christians?”

        because they don’t keep thier frippin’ cutist beliefs private. ”

        Unlike Flashy who parades his/her? cultist beliefs here every day.

        Hypocrisy thy name is Flashy.

      • momo

        Yeah Flashman Christians are a lot like liberals. They think they know better than anybody else and try to push their beliefs on those who they think are their intellectual inferior. Oops, sounds a lot like the current usurper residing at 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue Washington, DC.

      • DaveH

        Why do Liberals like Flashman hate Christians? Because they believe in things like “Thou shalt not Lie”, and “Thou shalt not Steal”. Liberals don’t like being constrained.

    • dan

      It’s hard to hide your sin if someone keeps calling attention to it . Denial is a demanding
      vice.

    • Karolyn

      Duh! What about liberal Christians? Personally, I don’t know any liberal atheistists or spiritual people who hate Christians, but I DO know many Christians who hate many whole populations.

      • http://gravatar.com/bychoosing Jay

        Karolyn, your true gift, it seems, may well be in “marketing”.

      • Karolyn

        Thanks for that Jay. I do try.

    • Jon

      How many of our Founding Fathers were self-proclaimed Christians???? Why is “In God We Trust” on our money?? Why is ….”under God”…. in The Pledge of Allegiance?? The answer to these might give a reason to pause and reflect about what is happening to our country.

      • Flashy

        Jon…the question you should be asking is whose “god’ is the references to. When you answer the obvious “ummmm….no one’s and everyones” … then you have a good beginning …

    • ironhead

      Jesus is life truth the way believe you sinners

      • Christin

        That is right, ironhead.

        “Jesus said to them, ‘I am the way and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but by me.’ ” John 14:6

        Many will not believe and many will not go to heaven, but that doesn’t mean it is not true.

    • dabudamasta

      Jay, are you ever delusional. What proofs do you have whatever you are ranting about? For instance you said “Sin is a condition that every person is born in to. It is the disposition that believers and unbelievers alike are tainted by. The difference between the believer and the unbeliever is a matter of spiritual legal standing, not a matter of personal perfection one over the other. ” Are you implying that your holy book is somehow superior to the Tanak , the Koran, the Hindu scriptures, Buddhist scriptures? What makes you think that your religion is the one and only true religion? Your belief that the bible is the only true words of God? Please enlighten us, if you can. Thank you. Peace be with you.

  • MontanaGrandmom

    He is being referred to as a pastor. They are ‘worshipping every weekend’ in the building. He purportedly obtained a permit to convert his garage into a ‘game room’, not a church. The meetings are held on a regular basis. This does sound like he is operating a church,not a Bible Study at his home. Does he have a church building elsewhere? Is he collecting funds (offerings, tithes, etc) from these people. There are zoning ordinances for a reason. Maybe he should have applied for a variance.

    Please don’t misundertand me. I am not opposed to Bible Studies in homes, or Home Churches or House Churches. But it sounds like this Bible Study group has reached the size that needs to be housed as a church, or broken up into smaller groups, in other homes.8-10 is a better size for a ‘Home Group’. The church we used to attend did this for a while. When the home groups reached a certain size, they were divided into smaller groups.

    I see that both sides seem to have some valid arguments in this instance. I AM against government tryng to restrict worship, This guy lives on 4+ acres and his neighbors are complaining? There must be more to this story. The sentence & fine seem excessive.

    • dan

      I think the rest of the story would mention fifteen or twenty vehicles…if there were near neighbors attending worship, i’m sure they would be afoot and parking / street congestion would not be an issue…..also one needs to consider sanitation for large groups.
      Logistic as well as Logos.

  • http://gillysrooms.blogspot.com GILLYSROOMS IN AUSTRALIA

    Whether he was Christian or Muslim, he should not have been fined or sent to jail for daring to have visitors for bible classes, We have a similar problem in Victoria Australia where Churches can only be located in designated Industrial Zones so that church bells and cars dont annoy residents in nearby residential areas, Where a landlord needs a Council permit to rent rooms in his own house to 4 or more people but you also need a building Permit and change the class of building if you have more than one boarder. Restricting residential use so more people might need to sleep under bridges or in parks so that landlords dont break onerous building regulations such as not providing ramps and larger toilets for wheelchair bound tenants you will never invite.

    Looks like someone is giving our people your laws. Not happy.

  • mac

    Bottom Line, Whose side do you think God supports?

    • Flashy

      mine

    • Karolyn

      EVERYBODY’S

      • Ted Crawford

        That response, in one word, displays the Fatal Flaw in Progressive Logic !

    • Vicki

      mac asks who’s side is God on.

      First Principle. Your Creator gifted you with life and free will.
      How you use those 2 gifts and how you honor these gifts in others,
      is how you shall be judged.

  • Charles Sproull

    I agree with Jay’s wonderfully informative essay. I would add that the greatest blindness is behind closed eyelids. Emotional “eyelids” that limit true perception are pride, fear, selfishness, dishonesty, and unconcern. When people cultivate the opposite core values, humility, courage, unselfishness, honesty and concern.

    Willfully blind people will never see how wonderful God (Elohim, YHWH, Creator of life) is, and how wonderful is the ministry of His only begotten Son Jesus Christ. It was God’s divine influence in the hearts of Bible believing Founders that gave us our Constitutional Republic and the greatest nation in the world. Why are blind-eyed liberals so devoted to ruining this?

    • dan

      I agree, Charles….that was beautifully stated. YVHY is a God of order ( as witness the universe ) as well as love .

    • AZ-Ike

      The liberals are so intent on ruining our Constitution, written with the guidance of Divine Providence and guaranteeing the Creator’s unalienable Rights for all of us, because the Constitution specifically limits Government’s Power and the liberals’ right to establish big government nanny states whose ultimate objective is to control all people.

  • Charles Sproull

    I forgot to finish the last sentence in the 1st paragraph: When people cultivate the opposite core values, humility, courage, unselfishness, honesty and concern, these enable them to learn more aboout the true significance of past history, see higher standards, further horizons and deeper details.

    • Karolyn

      Are you saying that liberals do not cultivate core values?

      • Ted Crawford

        Of course they do Karolyn ! ! Their core values are founded on the writings of Thomas Hobbs, Thomas More, Saul Alinsky, Richard Cloward, Francis Pivin, Karl Marx, George Soros, Validimir Lenin, ETC.

      • Flashy

        If you’re mentioning Hobbes and More in the same breath, you should include John Locke, Voltaire, Rousseau, Swift, etc … though Locke and Voltaire were more in line with classic liberalism than Hobbes and who formed the basis for much of what Jefferson relied upon in writing the Constitution.

        The remainder of your list plainly shows you have no clue about what you write … (or read…if you even read any of the Great Philosophers)

      • Karolyn

        I would feel pretty confident in saying that most liberals have never even read any of the writings of those people.

      • Flashy

        I feel very confident that most conservatives haven’t either. It’s a shame…

      • Ted Crawford

        ” I feel pretty confident in sayinf that most Liberals have never read any of the writings of those people ” I submit that because I believe that you are correct and including the fact that most Conservatives haven’t either, is the primary reason we have such a poor, and deteriorating government !

      • Nadzieja Batki

        You mimic/copy the values. You cannot create any of your own.

      • Flashy

        Ted…i muist apologize when i inferred you had not read the great philosophers. What threw me was when you tossed in Soros, Lenin, etc into the mixture of your comments.

        You’ve read Leviathan ? Have you had opportunity to read A Treatise of Human Nature (Hume)? Adam Smith credited Hume with having a major impact as he was thinking through and writing Wealth of Nations. Obviously you read Locke’s Treatises on Government. Were you able to also include his Letters of Toleration (less well known, but I believe enlightening)?

        I would not toss Marx out of any “must read”. Especially if one considers the events he described included Man’s inherent nature and “natural conflict” did, in fact, come true in Russia, and were present in the Western industrialized world buffered only by the advent of unions and the minimization of the stresses he identified. One doesn’t have to be a “believer” to have read Marx. Only the ignorant would refuse to read his works …

      • DaveH

        Only the ignorant would believe anything you say, Flashman.

    • Ted Crawford

      While I admit that I know nothing of Swift, only slightly more of Rousseau and little more of Voltaire, I have read Hobbs, More , Plato, Locke, Marx, and Montesquieu. My question to you is this, exactly what parallels do you draw from Leviathan, that apply to The Articles of Confederation, The Federalist Papers, The Declaration, or The Constitution ? My reading of these documents and works, as well as some personal correspondance between the Founders, leads me to belive that Locke and Montesquieu were the primary sources of inspiration to the Founders !

      • Flashy

        Ted…how can one state Locke being an influence without also including Hobbes? They were adversaries in their works and thought, so any debate of Locke would have to include the arguments proposed by Hobbes. Interesting you cited Montesquieu, one of the chief architects of the thought minimizing the individual and seeing the ambitions of Man as an area of concern to allow for proper governance of a society.

        Add to that Jefferson was a huge fan of Voltaire, having in his library most of the works of that philosopher.

      • Flashy

        Ted —> “My question to you is this, exactly what parallels do you draw from Leviathan, that apply to The Articles of Confederation, The Federalist Papers, The Declaration, or The Constitution ?”

        i’m not dodging you. Your question requires thought and reflection and I have some details to attend to this morning (as well as some brushing up…it’s akin to a term paper the daughter would write )

  • Jesse

    This is exactly why america is in the shape its in….not one of you can think outside yourselves and your ridiculous beliefs. It has nothing to do with religion, it has to do with the rights you have at your home.

    Its clear that if he had been having a poker night or a gathering for Monday night football there would be no problem at all.

    THAT’S WHAT YOU NEED TO FOCUS ON!

    Whether Mickey Mouse, Goofy, or Donald Duck is real is real does not matter here its all about your freedoms or lack thereof.

    What the hell is wrong you people?

    Pull your heads out of your…..and get in line!

    • Flashy

      “Its clear that if he had been having a poker night or a gathering for Monday night football there would be no problem at all. ”

      Wanna bet? Every Sunday a huge gathering organized with a building for the purpose? if it were football or poker night..yeah, I’d say it would be a problem. Except the christian fanatics wouldn’t be all uptight and whining about it.

    • TML

      I think Flashy is right on this… that’s why they have Sports Bars for large groups

  • Steve E

    If you want to have Christian meetings in your home, just tell everyone that you are having a Muslim gathering there. People will be too scared to do anything about it then.

  • http://peresonallibertydigest.. gottaplenty

    I’ve noticed regularly when a liberal decides someone is indeed a religious fanatic , is when he is minding his own buisness and has very good morals and is in fact a clean living person. Now to be in the (normal) society you must be very loose moraled , trashy, rotten to the core and just hate anyone that doesnt fit thier lifestyle. The libs also believe that any law they decide to push on to you had better be what you do. They own the universe and enviroment…

    • Karolyn

      Wow, what a narrow view!

      • Ted Crawford

        You, FINALLY, understand our problem. You now accept what we’ve been trying to explain for many, many years. Welcome home !

      • Nadzieja Batki

        Actually, you are the one with the narrow views.
        You have made yourself into your own little god so then you should be the most joyous person on the planet. You control your own destiny and should not care what anyone thinks or believes. Yet you keep denigrating other people.

      • Karolyn

        Look in the mirror, Nad.

  • Karolyn

    There have to be some constraints. I understand where people might have a problem with this since it deals with Christianity. However, would it be different if it were devil-worshippers? That may really be a moot point, though, because codes are codes. Hey, wha’s’ to stop people from turning their property into any manner of gathering place and putting the neighbors out and creating disturbances? A religious “club” is the same as anybody else and has to abide by the rules. Granted, there are too many rules and law; and it seems the penalty was a bit harsh; however, he did brake the law. He said it himself – that they worshipped there every week; so it is a church and needs to abide by the rules concerning churches.

  • http://survivingurbancrisis.wordpress.com Silas Longshot

    Having his own business, ‘perhaps’ he had funds to rent an empty storefront in a handy location. Maybe it would have worked with a few donations of the ‘members’ or friends attending. There are so many available due to 0bama’s policies that there must be one that could be reasonably rented. That solves the majority of these ‘zoning’ issues. Minor details might have been needed to the rental, but in the long run would have been far less hassle than he’s in now.

    • MichaelSee

      Someone asked the question of if they could have met in the restaurant rather than in a purpose-built building in a residential area. I think that it might have been nice to be able to have a cup of coffee and a sweet roll while sitting in a comfortable booth, studying the Bible with other belivers, but I’m afraid that the code enforcers would object. If this “place of assembly” was considered a Church then new code restrictions cut in. Churches, movie theaters and other places of assembly have their own zoning restrictions. If the building WAS rezoned (unlikely) as a Church then it couldn’t be used as a restaurant. This guy is in deep Bandini no matter what he does.

  • FreedomFighter

    Ever wonder how many of the City officials in Phoenix are hidden or practicing satanists? It would be interesting to see.

    Laus Deo
    Semper Fi

    • Karolyn

      Oh, please, FF, that’s reaching a bit, don’t you think? He broke the law, period! I live in the Bible Belt, where almost everybody is Christian, and they still implement the zoning codes. As a matter of fact, there is a trailer down the road that I think is being used for religious meetings; and I do believe they would be shut down if somebody told the zoning office. They take their role very (maybe too) seriously.

      • Flashy

        FF…you do realize to be a Satanist, one must first be a christian? For christians are the only ones who have Satan …

        Have a nice day…

      • FreedomFighter

        Still does not answer the question does it, just because you have no faith or belief in these matters does not mean others such as officials mentioned do not.

        Looks like an attack to me, athiest do the same thing.

        Laus Deo
        Semper Fi

  • Ronzo

    We need to realize that evil is now a prominent working entity of this world, however God can and will raise up a standard against it. Greater is he that is within me than he that is in the world. When you have evil people unbelievers in high places you as Christians will be persecuted. Find someone with a good spirit to run for elected positions and put a stop to this evil. We all should as Christians check to see what kind of people that campaigns for elected or appointed positions.

    • Flashy

      YEAH ! JUST LIKE THE TALIBAN !

  • Chester

    If he is having forty people in three times a week, he is definitely in violation of all standard residential codes. IF he had applied for a variance to put up a building to safely allow this many people to assemble, then made sure what he put up met code requirements, he would never have been in this situation. And no need comparing this to a regular poker night in your home, as most poker nights in a private home will have no more than ten to twelve players at the outside. You MIGHT have twenty guests in your home while the games are going on, assuming all the players brought their spouses. Even better, most poker nights will revolve between three or four homes, which brings the crowd in one neighborhood down to maybe once a month. That is a BIG difference from forty people in an unapproved meeting area three times a week. This is NOT a case of code or God, this is a case of a man thinking because he is a preacher, he is ABOVE the law, like I hear so many say various and sundry officials consider themselves.

  • r

    My neighbor holds synagogue services in a house, but nobody says anything to him.

    • Flashy

      Because to date, I’d say the neighbors don’t see it as a hindrance to the reasonable enjoyment of their property and it’s not to the extent it would be damaging to property values. Thus, no complaints.

  • Steve

    Hope code enforcement is making sure those muzzies aren’t having any meetings in their houses!

  • http://wildeyguns.com The Christian American

    The bible was written over a period of 1,400 years by 40 authors and contains 66 books. Anyone with an open mind reading it would know every word in it is true. The bible proves itself. As the Apostle Paul said: To me to live is Christ. To die is gain. Anyone taking a stand for Christ has to be prepared for persecution, especially in the times we live. Man is a servant, it only depends on who he serves Christ or Satan, good or evil. Satan is working overtime to get all he can to join him in hell, That is evident as you look around. Christ paid the price. Onward Christian Soldiers must be prepared to pay the same price.

  • http://www.facebook.com/charles.nickerson.5 Charles Nickerson

    Have they and the Judges ever heard of the first Amendment of the US Constitution Freedom of Religion and Assembly. Where the heck was his Lawyer He should own the City!

  • http://gravatar.com/bychoosing Jay

    The United States was founded by pioneering individuals seeking religious freedom. Sometimes it is forgotten that these persons were deeply religious and viewed vibrant religious communities as a indispensable tool to the formation of society and citizens.

    They would never have thought that our schools, of all places, where the character of our future citizens is formed would be rendered a bulwark against religion.

    While we must remain sensitive to the need for all religions to be respected, we must not make secularism the highest religion of all.

    • Flashy

      Ummmm..those people who first came here from Europe? Only the Pilgrims…and even then they held no continence to anyone practicing any religion other than the ‘correct” one. Jamestown was not a religious sect escaping persecution, and didn’t have such stringent mores of the community. And St. Augustine was a vibrant thriving community with all sorts of shenanigans allowed.

  • TML

    I can understand that the officials are being total a**holes about this, even having officers enter the home to force inspection, and saying a permit for a game room means you can’t use it for anything else…. seems pretty tyrannical to me. However, one should consider the neighbors who had the complaints to begin with. Most reasonably, once you have that many people attending a service, you should go out and buy/build a regular church instead of building a structure on your own residential property. It would be more public, and new people could just decide to attend from the general public. What was this supposed to be? Another Jonestown?

  • FreedomFighter

    Have you ever wondered why “Government state and city” never seem to goto a Islamic / Muslim prayer meeting and cite code?

    Have you ever wondered why Athiest never attack Islam like they attack christians?

    Christian faith is the TRUE faith, its why satinists, athiests, Mulims and the misguided fools in government following there direction attack them.

    Laus Deo
    Semper Fi

  • TML

    “Have you ever wondered why “Government state and city” never seem to goto a Islamic / Muslim prayer meeting and cite code?”

    Wasn’t there a big to-do about Muslims even building a Mosque in New York not long ago? Which is to say nothing about the codes for building it. To my knowledge, Muslims don’t have “prayer meetings” anyway. And if they tried to make one on their own residence and consistently had 20 to 30 people attend, I have no doubt the result would be the same.

    “Have you ever wondered why Athiest never attack Islam like they attack christians?”

    I can, and have, gone at the Muslim every bit as much as I have Christians… however, being in America, there are just more of you Christians, so it stands to reason why they get it more than the others from Atheists. It could also be contributed to the idea that right now, the Muslim is persecuted by the Christian even with all these unjustified wars in the Middle East…. why should we attack them when your doing it enough for both of us?

    • Flashy

      i’ve never been acosted by a Muslim insisting I hear the word and be ‘born again”. Nor is my life or rights affected by organized Muslim groups publically whining and pushing for their religion to be the ‘correct’ one and insist their religious mores be adopted as law by society (one example of many would be Abortion).

      Quit pushing it in our face, and all would be well.

      • http://gravatar.com/bychoosing Jay

        Flashy says; i’ve never been acosted by a Muslim insisting I hear the word and be ‘born again”. Nor is my life or rights affected by organized Muslim groups publically whining and pushing for their religion to be the ‘correct’ one and insist their religious mores be adopted as law by society (one example of many would be Abortion). However, i can’t for the life of me remember the last time a Christian decapitated someone on youtube The last time a Christian theocracy deprived women of the right to vote, the right to an education, and routinely executed homosexuals. Come to think of it, and if memory serves, even renown Atheist Richard Dawkins has publicly admit it that Islam is the most dangerous religion in the world. Ooops…

    • FreedomFighter

      Your crazy dude, what world do you live in?

      Laus Deo
      Semper Fi

      • TML

        You think that atheists attack Christians, on behalf of the American government in support of Islam, proves Christianity as the “true” faith…. and I’m the one that’s crazy?

      • FreedomFighter

        The fact, in fact, is they all do.

        Laus Deo
        Semper Fi

  • Jim Brindley

    OK there are two sides to this story and they do not necessarily meet in the middle.
    First- Was Salmon guilty of building code violations? It does not matter one iota what he was using the building for as long as it involved the public. If he was running a scheduled Bible Study with 40 “STUDENTS” that is not exactly the same thing as having a few friends over to watch football or play cards! One story I read stated that it was a Bible Worship Service with a printed program and a collection plate passed around during the service. If true then Salmon was running a church in a location zoned as residential! Churches have to abide by building codes just like any other public building! The story also said Salmon was warned repeatedly about using his property for church services by the city. It also said Salmon applied for tax exempt status for his 4.6 acre property claiming it was being used for religious purposes! If all that is true Salmon got what he deserved.

    Second- Religion is and always has been a hideout for scoundrels, bullies, scam artists, fanatics along with a large number of the faithful. Like everything else done by human beings it is flawed and sometimes flagrantly so! Just because someone claims to be holding some type of religious service does not exempt them in any way from the law. Even if the police and zoning inspectors were over zealous I suspect at least half of the claimed 67 code violations were probably justified! Religion should never be used as a cloak to hide from the law!

    Given the very shady history of organized religion in this world the faithful should be just as quick to judge and question the religious side of this type of conflict as the government! If anything I’d tend to err on the side of law and order first. Simply because of the undoubted political fall out that would follow such a case! The evidence of that can be found right here in these responses! Very few elected officials and other government employees such as police and building inspectors have any desire to be branded as anti religion! Unfortunately all those folks inside organized religion don’t feel the same way about government!

    • http://gravatar.com/bychoosing Jay

      Well, if nothing else, this article certainly flushed-out all the intolerant-ignorant-bigots!

  • Raymond Carl Hardie

    I have read with an unbiased attitude the numerous posts concerning the thoughts and opinions of the readers. It is without reservation that I would like to add the following information of which has helped me to see the Hand of Providence in and through people and events that brought about the instituting of this Country of ours. In the beginning of our contest with Great Britain, Benjamin Franklin,s address to the Continental Congress in convention he said : ” In the beginning of the contest with Britain, when we were sensible of danger, we had daily prayers in this room for Divine protection. Our prayers, sir, were heard and they were graciously answered. All of us who were engaged in the struggle must have observed frequent instances of a superintending Providence in our favor, and have we now forgotten that powerful Friend? Or do we imagine we no longer need its assistance? I have lived, sir, a long time, and the longer I live the more convincing proofs I see of this truth, that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow can not fall to the ground without His notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without His aid? We have been assured, in the sacred writings, that ” except the Lord build the house, they labor in vain that build it. ” I firmly believe this and I also believe that, without His concurring aid, we shall succeed in this political building no better than the builders of Babel; we shall be divided by our little, partial, local interests, our projects will be confounded and we ourselves shall become a reproach and a byword down to future ages. And, what is worse, mankind may hereafter, from this unfortunate instance, despair of establishing government by human wisdom and leave it to chance, war and conquest. ” This quote comes from: ” The Works of Benjamin Franklin ” , Motion for Prayers in the Convention, Federal Edition, vol.2, Knickerbocker press, 1904, pp. 377-378.
    Today their is prayer before every meeting of Congress because of this act initiated by Mr. Franklin. It was by unanimous vote in the first congress that established the rule for prayer before every convening session, due to this speech by one of our founding fathers.
    It also should be remembered that the Liberty Bell was paid for out of the pockets of those original members and others who fought and they unanimously agreed for the inscription to be from Leviticus 25;10, ” Proclaim liberty throughout all the land unto all the inhabitants thereof: ” .
    I am grateful for the conviction of these men and there united stance upon the Bible as a document of truth, our own history bears this out. To try an dissect the foundations of this Country will only prove what Benjamin Franklin spoke to be true, that if we cast aside and choose to forget the Hand of Providence in our National building, we most certainly become a reproach and a byword in the remainder of history..I want to see our Nation thrive and prosper again, but I believe without God it is impossible. I do not consider myself a religious man as the worlds definition would describe but I believe as Benjamin Franklin, I have lived a long time and have seen my share of war, and the longer I live I am also more convinced that there is a God and Christ is Lord.

  • http://gravatar.com/bychoosing Jay

    Christianophobia

    A freedom to choose or privately express your own religion is a trait commonly seen in nearly all developed countries or colonies. Though, there are still areas of the world in which unfair biases still exist which may lead to an intense hatred or avoidance of religions outside of their own. This can even lead to violent outbreaks or unfair treatment of those with opposing viewpoints.

    Christianophobia deals with the extreme fear of Christians or the Christian faith.

    Symptoms of Christianophobia:

    There are several ways to spot someone who may be christianophobic. If you or someone you know experience one of the following viewpoints, consider seeking professional therapy or external help in dealing with the situation:

    1. Conflicting religious views that lead to an intolerance of other religions outside of their own.

    2. An irrational fear that Christians are conforming together to take over the majority of the world.

    3. A fear that if Christians are not “stopped” they will do the same to their own religion.

    4. Avoidance of Christians

    5. Radically violent or complete intolerance of the Christian religion.

    Common Facts About Christianophobia

    This fear does not only include those specifically expressing Christian faith but also to those who “support” “Christian principles.”

    This fear can be so severe it may cause christianophobes to start to avoid or even attack anyone who is expressing an external viewpoint.

    It is important to remember that this phobia is not something commonly seen in an individual. It is usually rooted in a group, where individuals pickup the viewpoint and carry it into their own personal lives.

    Christianophobia cannot only hold you back in your life, it can also hold back others around you.

    This condition is not only an extreme or irrational fear of Christian people, it is usually coupled with a hatred of their religion.

    As a result, it leads to an unfair demeanor towards someone’s right for a personal choice.

    The tolerance of other religions has recently become a relatively significant issue in our society.

    Making the effort for conquer this phobia will make a huge difference in your personal life, usually resulting in a more calm and collected composure in previously perceived stressful situations.

    If you are ready to make this positive change, on both a personal and social level, do some preliminary Internet research to find the best treatment options available locally to you. -Good luck and God-speed!

    • Karolyn

      Jay – I gotta tell you that I don’t think I’ve ever met anybody with Christianaphobia. Maybe it’s just that Christians are paranoid? Why else would somebody go as far as to make up a label for a supposed malady? It seems to me that Christians just don’t understand others.

      • http://gravatar.com/bychoosing Jay

        Karolyn says: Jay – I gotta tell you that I don’t think I’ve ever met anybody with Christianaphobia.

        Look in the mirror, Karolyn.

  • libertarian58

    Permits and building codes all fall under the first plank of the Communist Manifesto and are abhorrent to everything this country is SUPPOSED to stand for. Just take a look at all the codes and ordinances that exist in your town to get an idea of just how communistic your local legislators/lawyers have actually become.

    • Karolyn

      On the other hand, if everybody did just what they wanted to do, there would be chaos.

  • myliberty

    what a crazy thing this is when the government steps on our freedom!!! what a shame!!! they need to talk to & look up The Christian Law Association & see if they can help them. It’s not free, but they have won many cases for Pastors & Laymen.

  • codeboy

    I know the frustration that an inspector can inflict. My sister was getting a septic put in and the lady inspector kept changing her mind on what kind of system they could put in for that soil type.The choices got more and more expensive it went from $12,000 dollars to about $50,000 or more inside of a few minutes.The contractor wanted to use graveless pipe which the state said would work for this type of soil.But the insptctor said they did not recognize the state of texas and they would have to use what she said regardless of what the state said was fine. She wanted them to use 4 feet of easy flow through gravel and panels on top of that.The hole they would have to dig would have to be 3 feet to the top of the panles 3 or 4 more feet to the bottom of the panels and 4 feet for the gravel and it would be 4 foot wide to fit the panels and the length was insain she wanted 2000 feet of it 1000 feet per tolit.The contractor was going to put in 400 feet of 8 inch graveless pipe and 2 feet of gravel since it was already there and the hole was partly dug.In the end he contractor had to pay the inspector a bribe so she would go away and they could get the job done and stop wasting his clients money.The contractor was a good person and did not want to see us get riped off.Basicly all she wanted was money.

  • Franklyn Molina

    Didn’t the old saying used to go “A man’s home is his castle?” These idiots need to leave these people alone. What the man is facing here IS discrimination, whether we want to see it or not. The fact that a man cannot hold a bible group in his own home, and the government feels it wants to get involved in his life? This is disgusting. For a country that was founded on religious freedom, we seem to be undertaking a war on religion. I’m an atheist and I think this is wrong. We cannot, nor should we EVER infringe upon another person’s religious rights, no matter who or what they are.

    • http://gravatar.com/bychoosing Jay

      Amen, Mr. Molina! You are the voice of reason crying in the wilderness.

    • Flashy

      Pray tell…what would you do if you were one of his neighbors and felt property valuations were going down, traffic was becoming more than a hinderance, and cars lined the street parked by people you don’t know. Ya think you’d feel safe for your family with strangers…lots of ‘em…parking in your ‘hood every week?

      What would you do?

  • StevenGarrick

    Apparently,his heighbors are atheist’s,or leftist’s,possibly satanist’s,..and so is the building inspector,whom by the way gives building inspector’s a bad name,and is obviously a non professional,..

  • http://gravatar.com/bychoosing Jay

    We’ve been told before about government regulations hampering home Bible studies, but this story is even more pervasive, perplexing and complicated than the others.

    Michael Salman, who lives in Phoenix, Ariz., has been sentenced to a startling 60 days in jail, given a $12,180 fine and granted three years probation for refusing to stop hosting Bible studies at his home. Why, you ask?

    He‘s apparently in violation of the city’s building code laws.

    City officials claim that he’s running an operation that is reminiscent of a home church — but without the required permits. And according to Fox’s Todd Starnes, Phoenix court documents show that he violated 67 codes.

    Unless the U.S. Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals grants an emergency injunction, he will be jailed as early as next week.

    Naturally, Salman believes the court’s findings amount to a crackdown on faith and religion. The city maintains that the penalties are legitimate based on the zoning laws he and his family have violated. However, Starnes was apparently unable to reach the Phoenix prosecutor’s office, the mayor’s office or code enforcement to obtain further comment.

    “They’re cracking down on religious activities and religious use. They’re attacking what I, as a Christian, do in the privacy of my home,” he said in an interview with Starnes. “If I had people coming to my home on a regular basis for poker night or Monday Night Football, it would be permitted. But when someone says to us we are not allowed to gather because of religious purposes, that is when you have discrimination.”

    Starnes goes on to provide an overview that recaps how the dispute first started between Salman and the city:

    The long-running feud between Salman and the City of Phoenix culminated in the summer of 2009 when nearly a dozen police along with city inspectors raided their home.

    Armed with a search warrant, police confined the Salman family to the living room as they combed the property looking for violations.

    Salman is the owner of Mighty Mike’s Burgers — and he is also an ordained pastor. He and his wife have been hosting Bible studies on their 4.6-acre property since 2005. The gatherings were originally attended by as many as 15 people.

    In 2007, they received a letter from the city informing them that the Bible studies were not permitted in their living room because it was in violation of the construction code.

    A few months later, members of the Phoenix Fire Dept. broke up the family’s Good Friday fellowship. As many as 20 people were in their backyard eating a meal when firefighters threatened to call the police – unless their guests left the premises.
    Watch Salman and his wife discuss their legal battle, below:

    And this was only the beginning. In 2008, the fire department came back again, and Salman ordered officials off of his property. The town then decided to ignore him — that is until he and his family built a structure in their backyard. The family, having secured the proper building permits, then moved the Bible studies to this new building.

    It was then that the real drama unfolded. Officials came in and found 67 code violations.

    From a failure to post EXIT SIGNS to a lack of HANDICAP SIGNS, Phoenix officials left no stone unturned. Now, the Christian Bible-study leader could spend some time behind bars — unless federal judges intervene.

    Listen to Salman and his wife discuss their legal battle, below:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T7tpX6oXZwA&feature=player_embedded

  • Jeremy Leochner

    I have always been a bit of a stickler when it comes to the law. I figure bible studies is an innocent and good use of time and a great way for family and friends to spend time together. In terms of the law I would ask about the law itself. Is said that the family was cited for operating a church. What meets the Arizona law for qualifying as a church and was this man and his family operating under such conditions. If so then perhaps violations were made. But it is a bit of a jump from bible studies among friends and neighbors to operating a church. I cant imagine they would have missed that in the fine print of the building code forms. I say if the family does not meet the legal standard for a church then they should not be treated as one. If otherwise they are in keeping with whatever building codes cover having a certain number of people over at what so ever time then I say there is nothing wrong.

    • http://gravatar.com/bychoosing Jay

      I’ve had many a birthday parties, and holiday get-togethers in my back-yard, and in my home, Jeremy, that at times amounted to more then 40 people. Thankfully, we didn’t discuss the Bible, or spoke in religious terms to loudly. Phew…i could have been behind bars on many occasions.

      • Jeremy Leochner

        That’s good. I have no problem with people getting together to have bible studies. I just want people to respect building codes. They are there for a reason. If these people did not have a church as I believe they did not I say they can do what they wish.

  • http://gravatar.com/bychoosing Jay

    San Juan Capistrano, Calif. city officials have voted to change their zoning code after a couple was fined $300 for holding home Bible study sessions, KCBS-TV reported.

    Chuck and Stephanie Fromm were cited last year after authorities said they were in violation of municipal code 9-3.301, which bars “religious, fraternal or non-profit” gatherings of more than three people in residential neighborhoods without a costly permit.

    Stephanie held a weekly Bible study that drew about 20 people, while Chuck held a Sunday service that attracted about 50.

    The Southern California city ultimately refunded the Fromms their fine after their story sparked a massive outcry, and on Tuesday the city council voted to change its code so that such home-based religious gatherings will not require permits.

    According to KCBS, the change conforms with the California Building Code, which does not require permits for such gatherings with less than 50 participants.

    “There is no reason why any family in the United States of America should have to worry about the government crashing their home Bible study or whatever meeting they’re having because of arduous rules and unreasonable restrictions,” Brad Dacus, president of Pacific Justice Institute, told the station. The Pacific Justice Institute had represented the Fromms in their appeal against the city.

    “We only hope at this point that other cities and counties across the country can learn from this wonderful resolution by the city of San Juan Capistrano to not make the same mistake twice,” Dacus said.

  • coal miner 1

    Didn’t The Bible Vs. The Building Code story appeared on this website a few years ago?

    • Karolyn

      Actually, I think it was this year.

  • CHRISTOPHER ALLEN HORTON

    I THINK THERE IS NO RIGHT OR WRONG IN THIS STORY.

    I BELIEVE Vicki Hill (Chief-Assistant City Prosecutor) IS CORRECT IN STATING Mr. Michael Salman WAS OPERATING A CHURCH IN AN UNSAFE BUILDING. I ALSO BELIEVE Mr. Salman IS CORRECT IN SAYING HIS PERSONAL LIBERTY WAS VIOLATED. PEOPLE SHOULD BE ABLE TO DO WANT THEY WANT ON THEIR PROPERTY.

    HOWEVER, Mr. Salman MADE THE SILLY STATEMENT, “At what point does the goverment have the right to state that you can not have family and friends over at your home three times per week?” NO ONE IN THEIR RIGHT MIND BELIEVES THOSE “friends” ARE PEOPLE Mr. Salman KNOWS PERSONALLY. WHAT IF SOMEONE “TRIPS AND FALLS?” WHAT IF THERE IS A FIRE AND A “RAMPAGE FOR THE DOOR?” WHO WILL THESE “friends” SUE? HOW CAN Mr. Salman PROTECT HIMSELF FROM SUCH LAWSUITS WITHOUT THE PROPER CREDENTIALS?

    CHRISTOPHER ALLEN HORTON

    • http://gravatar.com/bychoosing Jay

      Christopher says: HOWEVER, Mr. Salman MADE THE SILLY STATEMENT, “At what point does the goverment have the right to state that you can not have family and friends over at your home three times per week?”

      His statement wasn’t silly, Chris, in fact, its a legitimate question. I would think that having family and friends over at one’s house is considered by most, as normal-social-behaviour. I would also like to think that most posting here engage in similar behaviour. Don’t you?

      Christopher says: NO ONE IN THEIR RIGHT MIND BELIEVES THOSE “friends” ARE PEOPLE Mr. Salman KNOWS PERSONALLY.

      No of course not, he just meets with them three times a week, so naturally, he has no idea who they are.

      Christopher says: WHAT IF SOMEONE “TRIPS AND FALLS?” WHAT IF THERE IS A FIRE AND A “RAMPAGE FOR THE DOOR?” WHO WILL THESE “friends” SUE?

      What if someone trips and falls, what if there’s a stampede at your, door, Christopher? Who will they sue? Well, you, of course.

      Christopher says: HOW CAN Mr. Salman PROTECT HIMSELF FROM SUCH LAWSUITS WITHOUT THE PROPER CREDENTIALS?

      How can anyone, protect themselves from law-suits? By purchasing liability-insurance, of course. Like millions of homeowners do! Don’t you?

      Have you any more mind-boggling question, professor?

      • CHRISTOPHER ALLEN HORTON

        “Jay,”

        YOU MISUNDERSTOOD MY POINT. Prosecuter Hill SAID THERE WAS NO “HANDICAP RAMP,” OR, “EXIT” SIGNS ABOVE THE DOORS. WE ALL KNOW SENIORS ARE MORE LIKELY TO GO TO CHURCH. MANY SENIORS UTILIZE WALKING CANES AND/OR WHEELCHAIRS. WHAT IF SOMEONE SPILLS A LIQUID AND SOMEONE SLIPS? WHAT IF THE “FELLOWSHIP-HALL STOVE” HAS A GREASE-FIRE? Mr. Salman DID NOT ADDRESS ISSUES OF SAFETY.

        CHRISTOPHER ALLEN HORTON

      • Vicki

        Christopher. Jay answered your question quite succently. Go back and re-read it. As to your silly handicap argument this is a PRIVATE home. The government has no say in such matters. Good thing too. If you think house prices are high now just imagine how much more if they have to be equipped for every possibility.

      • CHRISTOPHER ALLEN HORTON

        “Vicki,”

        WHEN PEOPLE TELL ME TO RE-READ SOMETHING, THEY ARE SAYING I AM UNEDUCATED. I AM A COLLEGE GRADUATE. I KNOW E-X-A-C-T-L-Y WHAT “Jay” SAID. “Jay” MISUNDERSTOOD ME BECAUSE HE IS CAUCASIAN.

        CHRISTOPHER ALLEN HORTON

      • CHRISTOPHER ALLEN HORTON

        “Vicki,”

        OUT OF COURTESY, I WANT TO MAKE MYSELF CLEAR. “Jay” AND I HAVE HISTORY IN ANOTHER THREAD. THEREFORE, HIS REPLY TO MY COMMENTS HAD AN “EXTRA” MEANING YOU ARE UNAWARE OF; BELIEVE ME, I UNDERSTOOD, “Jay.”

        CHRISTOPHER ALLEN HORTON

  • wallace

    my experience with building inspectors and building codes are that the inspector is not there to see that buildings are built to code but that contractors perform the work at high prices. commercial buildings in my area must be built by commercial or modified by commercial contractors. the owner just isn’t allowed to do the work the building inspector will never approve or even tell you how to meet the code. once when we asked to have a copy of the code book placed in the library we were told that we would be told by the inspectors whats in the code book. by the way i live and operate my business in a small town (pop. 3000). we need local libertarianism. we need to start locally before we can build a national base, tea party any one?

  • moonbeam

    Well, the rules are the rules. People don’t consider the impact on their neighbors, sad to say. Doesn’t matter what they were gathering for. Fact is, they were disturbing the neighbors with all the traffic and they rightly complained. I don’t blame them at all. But of course, somebody will say they were trying to stifle for religious reasons.

    I used to have bible study in my home, but there were only 4 of us who lived in the same apartment community. There was no trouble about it. Just a few people quietly getting together for bible study.

  • mattsmoski

    Why would you have to follow commercial building codes for a gathering at your own home. Super bowl Sunday your all in violation for having a gathering where is your liquor license? It is a private gathering. Don’t call it a Bible study then call it a party and your ok.

  • Ed

    if it was a game room supposedly being applied for, the pastor should have said that Jesus to him was the only game in town

  • Fedup!

    I emailed these A-holes and they said it is all false. He lied and we were tying to protect the people. BS that is that same excuse that is so loosley used these days to benefit special interests. It is the same exact thing happing in most of our U.S. departments like the DOJ, TSA, FDA, and especially the damn EPA. They think we are too stupid to figure this out and I am soooo sick of it. Guess what Obamacare won’t work in soooo many ways. People need to get their heads out of their @ss!

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