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Texas Law Will Require Sonograms Prior To Abortions

May 23, 2011 by  

Texas law will require sonograms prior to abortionsPregnant women in Texas who want to get an abortion must first get a sonogram, according to a new law signed by Republican Governor Rick Perry.

According to Reuters, most women will have to wait 24 hours after the ultrasound before they can have the abortion. Individuals who live more than 100 miles from an abortion provider will have a two-hour window between the sonogram and the procedure.

The measure states that women will have the option of hearing the baby's heartbeat and seeing the sonogram image, the media outlet reported. Moreover, the patient's doctor is required to describe the image, detailing the size of the embryo or fetus.

"Governor Perry was pleased to sign this important legislation, which bolsters our efforts to protect life by ensuring Texans are fully informed when considering such an important decision," said Katherine Cesinger, a spokeswoman for Perry.

Under the law, women who became pregnant as a result of rape or incest can decline to hear the description of the sonogram.

Meanwhile, lawmakers in Minnesota have approved two bills that are designed to limit abortions. According to the Minnesota Star Tribune, the State Senate recently voted to eliminate government funding of abortions and to prohibit all abortions that take place more than 20 weeks after conception.

The legislation now advances to the desk of Minnesota Governor Mark Dayton.

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  • Tim L.

    What I want to know is where are the jobs the repubs promised. All these idiots have done since they got back into office is wage war on women’s health and secure huge tax breaks for big oil. I guess when a repub says he wants smaller government, he means a government just small enough to fit inside a woman’s uterus.

    • Robert Smith

      It’s called “red meat” issues, Tim. It distracts from the serious issues that should be dealt with and makes some folks feel good and powerful because they can keep a woman pregnant when she doesn’t want to be or take your gun.

      What America needs is for those goofs to remember that adults don’t need government to tell them about their sex lives in any way.

      We, as Americans, need to be pro-choice advocates for any freedom that doesn’t harm another. (NO, it isn’t a baby)

      Pro-choice in abortion.

      Pro-choice in firearms.

      Pro-choice in recreational drugs.

      Pro-choice in…

      Rob

      • Terry

        We shouldn’t be killing anyone in the womb!

        • Robert Smith

          Terry, Terry, Terry…

          Not everyone shares your point of view that it’s a baby. Why do you insist upon forcing your belief upon others?

          Even if it is a “person”

          BTW, if someone came to your house for a party, yes they were invited, and they decided to stay for 9 months and they demand that you feed them, etc. Yes, really supply 100% of their needs for 9 months, wouldn’t you get some help to have them taken out?

          AND! How can anyone from the extreme right tell a woman what to do with her own body? Has the right turned into the nanny state?

          Oh, and how can anyone be “pro-life” and not support universal health care?

          Rob

          • crystal

            This is one topic that Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr’s. daughter has right. Abortion was solely created to control the black population. Most people don’t know that the woman behind Planned Parenthood chose the words “undesirable” to push the abortion issue before it hit the Supreme Court. In many ways she really succeeded. Planned Parenthood offices and clinics are mostly concentrated in black communities throughout the country and instead of the black population being 26%,abortion has decreased this particular population down to 13% since the Supreme Court decision.

          • Robert Smith

            Awww Crystal…

            You posted: “Abortion was solely created to control the black population.”

            No it wasn’t. Silly, silly thought.

            Black neighborhoods wouldn’t otherwise have any other medical resources available if it weren’t for PP.

            Now, if we had universal health care for all Americans then there wouldn’t be such a crying need for PP in such neighborhoods. But, those who claim to be “pro-life” just don’t get behind the REAL effot to save lives with health care being available.

            Quite frankly I think you should be ashamed of yourselves.

            Rob

          • http://naver samurai

            Always with the rhetoric [insult removed]? Let’s see what happens when doctors are told they can only do a certain amount of things a month, forcing people to wait in line for an operation. How about when the death panels start up? Abortion is murder and PP has caused more deaths than the Nazis ever did. FOR GOD AND COUNTRY!

          • GregS

            Robert Smith says:

            “Not everyone shares your point of view that it’s a baby.”

            Again, you’ve missed the point, Robert: He/she is a living human organism, regardless of what you want to call him/her (“baby,” “fetus,” etc). This is a MEDICAL FACT, NOT a “point of view!”

            Robert Smith says:

            “…if someone came to your house for a party, yes they were invited, and they decided to stay for 9 months…”

            Robert, your analogies are sooo lame! Pregnancy is a normal biological process. Someone overstaying his/her welcome at your house is NOT!

            Robert Smith says:

            “How can anyone from the extreme right tell a woman what to do with her own body?”

            As you’ve been told before, Robert, the unborn child is NOT part of a woman’s body. He/she is a separate, living human organism, with his/her own sex, genome, blood type, etc. Any medical textbook will tell you this.

          • Jana

            Greg S,
            Right on.
            RS and the rest of the liberals think that is such a smart comeback, but its the only one they are stuck on, and its not even correct.

          • Robert Smith

            Another “BIG LIE” from samurai: “Abortion is murder…”

            No it isn’t. Abortion is mostly legal in most of America. “Murder” is a legal term and you are abusing it, samurai.

            BTW, with birth control information, etc. PP PREVENTS more abortions than any other organization by the pregnancy not happening in the first place.

            Using fear from your brutal god doesn’t work, samurai. If it did then Sara Palun’s kid would not have gotten pregnant in the first place.

            Rob

          • http://naver samurai

            Rob, [insult removed], first, Sarah’s daughter getting pregnant was a choice, not a good one, that she made. She also chose not to have an abortion. Second, the facts I’ve stated about PP are true and cannot be denied. Though, I understand what you say about giving info about birth control and other things. This I cannot argue with, but it is also true that the number of abortion they have performed have killed more innocent babies in this country than during the Third Reich of Hitler. FOR GOD AND COUNTRY!

            P.S. you say fear mongering? Tell me the Webster’s definition of it. I’m not trying to scare people, but sometimes the truth is a scary thing. Hooray for Indiana in becomming the toughest state to get an abortion. Victory for God and patriots! GOD BLESS AMERICA!

          • Shari

            Having just read through the discussion on abortion I’d like to present a different perspective. Having performed obstetric ultrasound for more than 20 years I’ve seen a vast array of patients. There is the population of young teens who use abortion as birth control – I had many of them on their 4th or 5th at age 15 or 16. There’s the group who has substance abuse issues that during delivery start to worry about the baby. There are the infertility patients that have undergone every test imaginable in an effort to conceive, the ones having a miscarriage and the list goes on. There are a couple of points I’d like to make, having dealt with thousands of patients over the years. First of all, at 1/5 of an inch, 5mm, there is an easily seen heartbeat. At 12 weeks, patients can see fingers on the baby’s hand. If I were to show you a picture, you would see a baby. In the Roe v Wade ruling it was stated that it was not known when life began. Technology has now advanced to a place where there is no longer doubt that there is life much earlier than thought at the time of that ruling. The ruling itself stated that when that question could be answered, the issue would be revisited because then there are the rights of the baby to consider. I have observed that if a patient wants to be pregnant or has the belief that this is a life, it is a “baby” from the time she has a positive pregnancy test. If she doesn’t want to be pregnant, well then it’s not a baby. I have had far too many women over the years who have come in for a scan related to a wanted pregnancy and at that time, for the first time, realized that the abortion she had was a baby. The distress, the tears, the guilt and the pain is so intense that it’s heartbreaking to witness and there’s really no way to comfort her. She’s just realized she took the life of her child. There are also the ones who aborted a pregnancy, or had several, and now have secondary infertility. There’s a lot of similar emotion with very little to offer in the way of comfort. Then there are the miscarriage patients who are done a grave injustice by this whole issue. Their loss is minimized and trivialized becaused “it’s not really a baby”. This is a complicated issue but the bottom line seems to be that women know, deep inside, they have an obligation to their child. It has been my observation over many years that it may take time but when they realize that they took the life of their baby, the emotional consequences are huge. I cannot tell you how many times I’ve been asked “why didn’t someone tell me?”

          • Jana

            Shari,
            This was really a very good post and very informative.

            I have a girlfriend who cannot get pregnant. She is devistated because these young girls use this method as birth control.
            Thank you for sharing this.

          • April

            Thank you Shari for this post, caring so much and all that you do to help people.

          • http://naver sook young

            Thank you Shari. I’m a nurse at our hospitals Center for Behavioral Medicine and sometimes we get patients like that. They develop signs of mental disorders, like depression, after having an abortion. We have a patient on our ward that had an abortion and turned to alcohol and drugs to deal with her feelings of guilt. She is one of the beds I check up on every hour. I really feel sorry for her. Thank you.

            Sook Young
            Wife of the Samurai

          • GregS

            Excellent post, Shari! Thank you! Your comments clearly support the fact that the woman is the second victim of every abortion.

          • iamone3

            “Oh, and how can anyone be “pro-life” and not support universal health care?”

            We can`t afford Obama care. It`s really that simple. Maybe in the future when wars have ceased we will, just not now.

      • http://naver samurai

        Sorry [insult removed], but if you advocate for not torturing anyone, then how can you advocate for the torturing and killing of children? Also, you agree that no one should force their beliefs on anyone, but why are you a hypocrite and say the mother can do the same with her child? It’s a life and not a choice. Don’t you think that the mother has the right to see the child inside of her womb? Don’t you think that this should be done prior to makung a decision? In Indiana, a doctor must let a woman listen to the baby’s heartneat before making a decision. Of course, Indiana has become the state that is the toughest to get an abortion. I hope the other 49 states follow our lead in this good fight. FOR GOD AND COUNTRY!

        • Robert Smith

          Oh! Oh! samurai is going on a string of inquisitional questions. I’ll pick one and answer it…

          samurai asks: ” Don’t you think that the mother has the right to see the child inside of her womb?”

          If she wants to she certainly should be able to see what’s inside her.

          If she doesn’t she shouldn’t be forced.

          Why is the extreme right meddling in the provate affairs of a woman? Is the less intrusive government a lie? Sure looks that way to me samurai.

          Rob

          • crystal

            In cases of rape and incest, I can’t see myself forcing a woman to go through that pregnancy (but that is my belief). Most abortions are the result of irresponsibility (and that is a fact).

          • Robert Smith

            Not a fact, crystal: “Most abortions are the result of irresponsibility (and that is a fact).”

            Many women feel that putting off parenthood is the responsible thing.

            Many women feel that providing for the already born is the responsible thing.

            Many women feel that their health is the responsible thing.

            YOU are not in a position to know or decide unless you are trying to be your christian god that allegedly sees all and knows all.

            Rob

          • http://naver samurai

            Sorry [insult removed] (Rob), but only 1% of all abortions are because of rape, incest, or the life of the mother. The other 99%, Crystal is dead on. Sorry Rob, but if a woman doesn’t want to get pregnant, then she shouldn’t have sex. Plain and simple. Your choice, your child, your responsibility. FOR GOD AND COUNTRY!

          • Jana

            Robert,
            You said:Oh! Oh! samurai is going on a string of inquisitional questions. I’ll pick one and answer it…

            samurai asks: ” Don’t you think that the mother has the right to see the child inside of her womb?”

            If she wants to she certainly should be able to see what’s inside her.

            If she doesn’t she shouldn’t be forced.***************

            This is exactly what the law in Texas states. No one is FORCING her to do anything, they are only affording her the opportunity if she wants.
            You have a reading comprehension problem!

      • GregS

        Robert Smith says:

        “What America needs is for those goofs to remember that adults don’t need government to tell them about their sex lives in any way.”

        What does this statement have to do with requiring sonograms prior to abortions???

        Robert Smith says:

        “We, as Americans, need to be pro-choice advocates for any freedom that doesn’t harm another. (NO, it isn’t a baby)”

        You’re taking the life of a living human organism, regardless of what you want to call him/her (“baby,” “fetus,” etc). This is a MEDICAL FACT!

        • http://naver samurai

          100% agree! Keep up the good fight, fellow patriot! We’re winning and will be victorious in the end. FOR GOD AND COUNTRY!

        • Robert Smith

          And! No matter WHAT it is called abortion is mostly legal in America.

          THE HOME OF FREEDOM.

          I find it very sad that those who keep saying they don’t want government involvement keep sniffing between womens’ legs to keep them pregnant when it should be her choice and hers alone.

          Rob

          • http://naver sook young

            Sorry [insult removed] (Rob), but we were founded on the Christian aspect of freedom and not this “do as you please” nonsense. Can you ever stop lying and being a moron? FOR GOD AND COUNTRY!

          • GregS

            You’ve got it wrong again, Robert. It’s the abortionist who “sniff[s] between womens’ legs,” NOT the government.

      • iamone3

        “We, as Americans, need to be pro-choice advocates for any freedom that doesn’t harm another. (NO, it isn’t a baby)”

        It is an innocent human life that deserves protection until it is old enough to protect its` self. When you demean and disrespect the beginning of life, it leaves no doubt that you would demean and disrespect those at the end of life. Are you certain you want to leave that legacy to your future generations that may see you as no different than Hitler and his followers?

        • Jana

          iamone3,
          Keep up the good work.

    • April

      In 2006 when the seats were filled by far left socialist commies, hands were tied to slow down and reverse the train to destruction that was set up when Carter was in Office. Ties are starting to unravel, I just hope they unravel in time to reestablish the original intent of our for-Fathers.

      • http://naver samurai

        100% agree, fellow patriot! FOR GOD AND COUNTRY!

    • GregS

      Tim L. says:

      “All these idiots have done since they got back into office is wage war on women’s health…”

      Abortion is NOT healthcare. It’s BIRTH CONTROL, stupid!

      • Jana

        GregS,
        EXACTLY!!!

        • Robert Smith

          And even if abortion is being used for birth control that is a GOOD thing if the woman wants to do it that way.

          But, taking a pill is so much easier. But… sometimes birth control fails.

          Rob

          • http://naver samurai

            “And even if abortion is being use for birth control it is a good thing if the woman wants to do it that way.” What a complete moron! OK then moron, what if they opened up concentration camps across the country and said all women of a certain race or religion had to go their to have mandatory abortions? What if they said they had to report there for manditory sterilization? Do you really think that it would be a good thing if the woman wants it this way? You’re beginning to sound very Nazi to me, moron! FOR GOD AND COUNTRY!

          • GregS

            The discussion in this thread was about abortion NOT being healthcare, NOT about whether or not birth control is a good thing. If you can’t stay on topic, Robert, then don’t comment!

          • Jana

            Greg,
            Abortion sure isn’t good for the baby’s health care is it?

          • GregS

            Exactly, Jana! It’s really sad how the pro-aborts get away with such euphemisms and oxymorons: “Reproductive healthcare”…What a joke!

          • http://naver samurai

            100% agree with you Greg. Keep up the good fight, fellow patriot! FOR GOD AND COUNTRY!

          • Albino.

            samurai….. What criteria do you use in judging who is a patriot or not??

          • http://naver samurai

            A patriot is a person who loves their country. In this case, getting it back to the ways we were founded on our Judeo-Christian beliefs. Ones that believe in our founding principles of self reliance, personal responsibility, and the vigilance to ensure that government remain our servants and not our masters. Ones who believe in going by our Constitution and not the traitors and cowards we have now that seek to shred the document for their own agendas. Does this answer your question? I’ve served for 20 years, but now I serve on the civilian side of the fence. I teach history to students and it’s great. I teach history the way it should be taught. FOR GOD AND COUNTRY!

          • GregS

            Well said, Samurai, and thank you for your comment!

          • Albino.

            Samurai…. So if someone doesn’t believe in christianity they are not a patriot? I thought we all have freedom of religion under the 1st Amendment of the Constitution.

          • Jana

            Albino,
            Now there you go again!
            He said in getting it back to the ways we were founded on our Judeo-Christian beliefs.
            The Bible says thou shalt not steal. I will presume you are not a thief, but that doesn’t make you a Christian, nor does it say you believe in Christianity.
            You just want to TRY and distort what people say, but when you TRY to do this all you do is show yourself up for what you are.

      • Robert Smith

        Greg says: “Abortion is NOT healthcare.”

        Sure is. Who are YOU to decide what is unhealthy for any woman?

        BTW, carrying to term is generally far more dangerous than an early term abortion.

        But then you clearly don’t worry about the woman except as an incubator for your politics.

        Rob

        • http://naver samurai

          Wrong agian moron! Many women who have abortions tend to leave the office with a damaged cervix. This increases the chances of miscarriage and other complications when trying to get pregnant and have children. I guess you only care about your lies, rhetoric, inuendo, and Nazi thinking processes and not the health of women. Practice what you preach, boy! FOR GOD AND COUNTRY!

        • GregS

          Robert Smith says:

          “Who are YOU to decide what is unhealthy for any woman?”

          Robert, I am NOT deciding ANYTHING. Where in my comments did you read that I am deciding what is “unhealthy for any woman?” What does this have to do with whether or not abortion is healthcare???

          I simply stated a FACT: Abortion is NOT healthcare. Most women have abortions for birth control reasons, NOT for health reasons. This is well documented by Allan Guttmacher, as well as by other surveys.

          Furthermore, you even acknowledged this in your comments above.

          As I said previously, Robert, you really lack the ability to follow along in any type discussion and stay on topic!

          • Jana

            GregS,
            Robert is doing his normal lies and deceipts. The subject isn’t about stoping a woman from having an abortion, the subject here in Texas is to allow the woman to see the sonogram.
            Most of the women weren’t aware they could see it, and wasn’t even being told it was being taken. Yet, they are paying for this sonogram.
            Robert would have our rights as women taken away from us to have all of the facts.
            This is how the communists are, keep the public under their control. Robert is all about control and lies (his word) and distortions. Why? Because he serves the Father of all liars.

          • April

            Jana, This is true!!

          • http://naver sook young

            I agree with you and thank you.

            Sook Young
            Wife of the Samurai

          • GregS

            Well said!

  • Fergus

    Pregnant women in Texas who want an abortion MUST first get a sonogram according to a new law. Gov. Perry was pleased to sign this important legislation. Well BULLY FOR HIM! I take it that this law was passed by men. Most women don’t approve of abortion but still (silly them) think it is a woman’s RIGHT to have one if she so chooses. Where do you men get the right to be forever dictating to women. We can think for ourselves and don’t need stupid men who can’t even make a good job of running the country to do our thinking for us.

    • Robert Smith

      The “right” for men is because of the sacred sperm they emparted upon the woman.

      The fact is they contribute one cell with only half of what’s needed as far as DNA goes and they take credit for the whole thing and commit a woman to 9 months of slavery if she doesn’t want to be pregnant.

      I don’t want priests, gas jockies, store clerks, or anyone else having a say for any woman.

      Rob

      • http://naver samurai

        Preganacy isn’t slavery moron, so get over it! If a woman doesn’t want to get pregnant, then don’t have sex. You should wait till you are married anyway, then things like this might not happen. Your choice, your child, your responsibility. For a woman to have an abortion shows she has low self esteem, is not responsible, and is incapable of anything dealing with children. Sorry moron, but you can’t have your cake and eat it too. FOR GOD AND COUNTRY!

        • Robert Smith

          samurai claims: “Preganacy isn’t slavery moron,”

          It sure is when the woman doesn’t want to be pregnant and she is being forced to remain pregnant against her will.

          Why are you meddling in the lives of women with your religious beliefs? Keep them to yourself and only have sex with women who want to be pregnant.

          Rob

          • http://naver samurai

            If the woman doesn’t want to be pregnant, then don’t have sex. FOR GOD AND COUNTRY!

          • Robert Smith

            If your god didn’t want women to have sex why did he make it feel so good for them?

            Oh, I get it! When you have sex with women it isn’t good for them. That has to be the expliation why you don’t understand the notion of recreational sex.

            Rob

          • http://naver samurai

            Still being the moron, eh? You like to twist someones words around, but you failed at the attempt. You know marriage isn’t recreational, but to be between a man and his wife only! If this were done, instead of listening to wackos like you, there would be no need for abortions, now would there? If it feels good, so be it. There still is no excuse for your ideas of its OK to commit infanticide. That is what abortion is, no matter race, religion, or nationality. Come to Indiana and say that crap. We’ll jave no problem showing you the exit. FOR GOD AND COUNTRY!

          • Robert Smith

            Looks like the board monitor can’t keep up with your name calling samurai.

            Rob

    • http://wowway.com 60ANDLOVINIT

      If you get a tooth extracted, the dentist shows you the x-ray and provides an explanation for the extraction. You also have an X-ray prior to any other surgery. It only seems befitting that a sonogram would fall into one of these’ I’d like to see what they are removing, since it is only a blob of tissue and it is a woman’s body.

      No body said that a woman can’t have an abortion. Not sure I understand the unjustified anger.

      • Kinetic1

        60,
        That’s a rather false comparison, don’t you think? To begin with, the doctor takes an x-ray to determine the the correct incision point, the size and scope of the problem, etc. It is necessary to the procedure. The point of the sonogram is not to aid in the procedure, but to try and create a sense of doubt or guilt.

        If I’m in for a gallbladder surgery, I’m not required by law to look at the x-ray and see what they are removing. My doctor and I have decided that it is the best treatment and that’s that. This law requires that even after the patient and the doctor have made the decision to go forward that a sonogram MUST be performed, the patient MUST look at it and MUST hear a description of what she is seeing and what is going to happen. Then she has to go home and think about it for a day. I can’t believe the “keep the government small and out of my personal life” crowd could live with the hypocrisy of supporting this law.

        • eddie47d

          That’s the Texas Two Step.

        • http://naver samurai

          Why not? In Indiana the doctor must let the woman listen to the fetus’ heartbeat before making a decision, so what’s wrong with Texas doing this? The issue of a woman’s rights isn’t the issue here, but trying to save innocent lives is. “Woe unto them that harm the innocent. For it would be better that a millweight be palced around their neck and they be cast into the sea.” Jesus Christ. I guess this tells you how God and Jesus feel about abortion (MURDER). FOR GOD AND COUNTRY!

          • April

            AMEN SAMURAI!!Right there with ya!

          • Kinetic1

            samurai,
            The fact that Indiana crafted such a law is not justification for Texas. Ever hear the old saying “two wrongs don’t make a right”? Again, the fact that your religion feels that abortion is a sin holds no sway over those who do not believe as you do.

          • http://naver samurai

            How you feel or believe Kinetic1, I can care less. You say 2 wrong don’t make it right? Then why does Obama bin Laden go around the Hyde Amendment to fund PP? Why does PP have to get money allocated to them by each state that has their clinincs? Why is it that PP has to lie to women to get them to abort, but if the state has a different policy you libs monkey tools come out of the woodwork to try to stop it? Soory, but Indiana has scored a major victory against PP and satan. Thank you and your Nazi mentality. Seig Heil! FOR GOD AND COUNTRY!

          • GregS

            As usual, well said, samurai!

          • http://naver samurai

            Thanks Greg! Keep up the good fight, fellow patriot! FOR GOD AND COUNTRY!

          • Robert Smith

            AMEN SAMURAI…

            There she goes again, preying on others.

            Rob

          • http://naver samurai

            Still with the unamerican nazi ideology? FOR GOD AND COUNTRY!

          • April

            Awwwwe does poor wittle wrobbie wrabbit feel all thweatened does hee!!!!LOLOLOL!!!!

          • Jana

            April,
            Robert has so much fear in him and he shows it with most of his posts. Thats why he distorts and twists what anyone says.

        • http://wowway.com 60ANDLOVINIT

          I don’t understand why viewing a sonogram would solicit a feeling of guilt. The point was made that it is your body and that it is only a blob of tissue. Feeling guilt would be a hypocricy.

          I the situation where someone has tumor, another blob, the doctors perform ultrasounds/x-rays to see what needs to be romoved. This is just another removal procedure.

          Do you feel guilty if they had to remove a tumor ?

          Remember, abortions were legalized if it was felt that they jeopardized the health of a woman. So like the steps to view the growth prior to extraction, you should be more than wiling to view a sonogram.

          • Jana

            60AND…,
            It doesn’t. Most of these women didn’t even know they were doing a sonogram. The sonogram has to be taken so they know where the baby is. They are just stating that the woman has the right to see this sonogram IF SHE WANTS TO. She also has the right to NOT see the sonogram.

          • Robert Smith

            Jana, you say: “Most of these women didn’t even know they were doing a sonogram.”

            Really! Is that how dumb you think women are?

            What else can it be when their belly is exposed, it gets all gooped up, an instrument is waved around, and the result is on a screen?

            Thanks for that insight into what you think of women.

            Rob

          • Jana

            No Rob,
            You are the one who thinks women are stupid.
            They were doing these sonograms AFTER they had been put to sleep for the prodedure.

  • DavidL

    “Fool me once, shame on them. fool me twice, shame on me.” What about three times?

    Well, the republicans got back into office promising jobs, jobs, jobs. All they have given since is guns, gays, abortion, kill medicare, tax breaks for the wealthy, attack the middle class, attack seniors, attack woman’s health, cut funding for education, give tax subsidies to big oil,and impose big government while claiming to support small limited government.

    Who should we blame for this republican go-around? vote the bums out and remember, forever remember, what a republican is.

    • http://?? Joe H.

      davidl,
      Yup the repubs are in control of ONE house and that means they control EVERYTHING…NOT! Why aren’t you B!TCHing about the fact that the libbies has a SUPER MAJORITY when Nobummer first got in and they accomplished NOTHING!!!! Except, of course, SCREW THE AMERICAN PEOPLE!!! with that majority they could have passed anything they wanted to and the repubs couldn’t have stopped a thing!! Why aren’t you b!tching about that you a$$????

      • Kinetic1

        JoeH.
        The fabled Democratic “Super Majority” is just that, a fable. Saddled with the “Blue Dog” Dems (read left leaning Republicans) there was no way that we were going to see the sort of sweeping reforms you claim should have happened.

  • eddie47d

    More intrusions by Republicans into the rights and personal decisions of others. What part of the State budget pays for these sonograms or is the women forced to pay up for something she didn’t request? If you don’t want State funding for abortion then there shouldn’t be any State funding for sonograms. That would make this bill illegal and not justified under Republican rules of economics.The right has gone off the deep end in several states in trying to legalize the killing of abortion doctors such as South Dakota and Nebraska. Now in Oklahoma they want to put women in prison for having an abortion and have even considered the death penalty. How far are they willing to push this issue? Having counseling available for any women seeking an abortion should be covered by insurance but not forced upon her.

    • http://naver samurai

      Make an abortion illegal again and the issue will go away. If you go against the norm you will encounter resistence. Abortion is not by our Christian founding. FOR GOD AND COUNTRY!

      • Robert Smith

        samurai says: “Make an abortion illegal again and the issue will go away.”

        No it won’t. The kitchen butchers will be back and women will DIE because of your advocacy samurai. Take responsibility for your brutal advocacy.

        Oops, but that is a brutal god you claim to follow, isn’t christian samurai?

        Rob

        • http://naver samurai

          I always assume responsibility for everything I do moron. Unlkie you who shirks his responsibility in telling lie, not giving facts, no sources, rhetoric, inuendo, and pushing your wacko beliefs on people about murdering a child is OK. Really need to be making that popping noise moron! FOR GOD AND COUNTRY!

    • GregS

      eddie47d says:

      “The right has gone off the deep end in several states in trying to legalize the killing of abortion doctors such as South Dakota and Nebraska.”

      Not true! Those bills in Nebraska and South Dakota would NOT condone killing doctors who perform abortions, because they only pertain to illegal acts, NOT legal ones like abortion. But if a pregnant woman were beat badly by an ex-boyfriend and she killed him, her act would be justified because she would be resisting an effort to murder her unborn child.

      The pro-aborts are trying to mis-inform the public about these laws, because they don’t consider the taking of the life of an unborn child as murder, even in cases where the woman is attacked.

      eddie47d says:

      “Now in Oklahoma they want to put women in prison for having an abortion and have even considered the death penalty.”

      Again, not true! The law would send the abortionist to prison, NOT the woman. There has NEVER been a law that has put women into prison for having abortions. The woman is the second victim of every abortion. Again, the pro-aborts are using scare tactics and mis-information to discourage public support for these laws.

      • Robert Smith

        Why can’t you be consistant? Gotta advocate for a “special” crime, huh Gret?

        Quit lying Greg: “even in cases where the woman is attacked.”

        If a woman is attacked the perp should go to jail. It’s assault.

        Why do you condone a “special” penalty for pregnancy but if it’s a hate crime for religious reasons you don’t want to see a penalty for that?

        Looking at the far right double standard again.

        Rob

        • http://naver samurai

          Being the moron still, eh? Of course if a woman is raped, the attacker should go to jail. That’s the laws in every state in the union. If the woman dies, because of the attack, the attacker could face the death penalty in some states. Why do you always protect the woman and not the innocent child, moron? In Indiana, if a person attacks and kills a pregnant woman and the child dies also, the attacker is charged with 2 counts of murder and could face the death penalty, depending on the circumstances. Sorry Rob, you can’t have it both ways. If you want to protect the woman under laws, then the child is also given the same protections. You lose again, moron! FOR GOD AND COUNTRY!

        • GregS

          As I said, the pro-aborts don’t consider the taking of the life of an unborn child as murder, regardless of the circumstances. Robert, you just confirmed this with your comment. Thank you!

          • Robert Smith

            Murder is a legal term. Abortion is mostly legal.

            Because it is legal it is much safer than it otherwise would be.

            Rob

          • http://naver samurai

            Rob, you’re a complete moron! Why don’t you tell that to the women who die, have complications, become infertile, suffer alcohol and drug problems, and suffer mental problems from having an abortion? Get your facts straight before you post. FOR GOD AND COUNTRY!

          • GregS

            Robert Smith says:

            “Murder is a legal term. Abortion is mostly legal.”

            What does this statement have to do with what we were just talking about in this thread???

            The circumstances that I was refering to was NOT abortion, Robert. We were talking about situations where pregnant women are attacked, and their unborn children are killed as a result.

            Your previous comments indicated that you pro-aborts don’t consider the taking of the life of an unborn child as murder, regardless of the circumstances.

            Go back through this thread. You obviously lack the ability to stay on topic in a discussion.

        • GregS

          Robert Smith says:

          “Why do you condone a “special” penalty for pregnancy but if it’s a hate crime for religious reasons you don’t want to see a penalty for that?”

          As usual, Robert, your analogy incorrect: The creation of laws/penalties for “hate crimes” involves giving certain groups of people special treatment, even though laws against those same crimes already exist.

          In the case of pregnant women, however, there are TWO victims involved, and, therefore, TWO crimes. This is clearly NOT giving special treatment to just pregnant women.

          • April

            Great Response GregS!! Huge Texas smiles and God bless you!

          • http://naver sook young

            I also agree! Good post and thank you.

            Sook Young
            Wife of the Samurai

  • http://personalliberty.com Cosette Sullivan

    YES, Robert Smith, is IS a baby. It is a human being with the absolute right to life and it is up to us to protect that life from the moment of its conception. Surveys indicate that the majority of women having abortions are being coerced by family and/or boyfriends. What kind of liberty is that?

    Pro-choice as to have sex or not

    Pro-responsibility for one’s actions and the consequences thereof

    • April

      Well said Cosette Sulivan!

    • Robert Smith

      From Cosette: “YES, Robert Smith, is IS a baby.”

      No it isn’t, anymore than an acorn is a tree or an egg is a chicken. Stacks of lumber are NOT a house.

      The woman needs to put 9 months in giving potentially an unwanted intruder 100% of all it needs by your rules. Shucks if someone were in your house without your permission (even if it is a baby) you wouldn’t allow them to stay if you didn’t want them there, even if you invited them to a party and they didn’t go home.

      If any woman doesn’t want it out it goes. It’s that simple. It’s her choice whether or not she allows something to be inside her taking and taking.

      Rob

      • Dale on the left coast

        Robert . . . you are friggin “Nuts” . . . .

        • Robert Smith

          Thank you for that insight from the extreme right…

          Rob

        • Jana

          Dale,
          I think you might be right. Mayber Roberts mother considered him an unwanted child and told him so. He has a very low esteem of himself, and shows much fear and weakness in his posts. He is to be pitied.

          • http://naver sook young

            He does exhibit some of the symptoms of being abused as a child. Thank you.

            Sook Young
            Wife of the Samurai

          • Jana

            Sook Young,
            Yes, probably by a priest.

          • Jana

            Sook Young,
            Please tell Samurai not to give up the fight. He is one of my heroes.
            FOR GOD AND COUNTRY!

          • http://naver sook young

            He won’t. He just took time off of this post, due to the staff here saying he was insulting certain people, he had to watch what he said on the site. I know it was the liberals that sounded like children running home to their mother. I thought men were supposed to be internally stronger then that. Thank you.

            Sook Young
            Wife of the Samurai

          • April

            Thank you Sook Young for comming on this site too. You and Samurai are a wonderful team. My hubby and I just celebrated 27 years and I am truely blessed to have such a fantastic partner. It is good to meet people on this site that have similar value systems. You and Samurai, Jana, Jay, Greg S, JeffH, just to name a few as there are more, that I always enjoy what ya’ll have to say. Noone ever agrees 100% of the time, but fight like these are so crucial to life, and as Mary said on this site earlier, We better make some things right in our Nation as God will hold us accountable. Taking innocent precious life is a HUGE deal. Ohh and what Shari shared is vital. God Bless America!!!

          • http://naver samurai

            Thank you for those words of encouragement April. I just took a short time off to “fall back and regroup.” My wife and I will be celebrating our 26th anniversary in December. My wife is the greatest gift I’ve ever gotten from God. Greater than even my own life. Keep up the good fight, fellow patriot! FOR GOD AND COUNTRY!

          • GregS

            Thank you for your comments, April.

            Sook Young and Samurai, ditto to what April and Jana have said about the two of you.

      • Jim

        Robert,
        You are mistaken. Once an egg is fertilized, it is a chicken, or human, or some animal.
        A stack of lumber is your house, once you make the plans and start building.
        An acorn is a tree in the making.
        A 1 day old or 100 day old fetus is a human being.
        If you don’t want to get pregnant, don’t have sex, or get fixed, like I did when we were ready to stop.
        Life begins at conception.

        • eddie47d

          Jim and Cosette seem to be saying sex is strictly for having children and once that has been achieved you must get fixed or do without. Only if it was that simple.

          • http://naver samurai

            Robert calls a baby an unwanted intruder and Jim and Cassette(sp) are advocating till waiting till you’re married and you tend to agree with Rob the moron? Geesh, shows the type of person you are. FOR GOD AND COUNTRY!

          • Jana

            Samurai,
            eddie keeps claiming he is a Christian, but goes against the what the Bible says most of the time. Claiming is one thing, proving it is another.

          • Robert Smith

            Well, don’t you claim to be “christian?” Yet you deny health care to those who need it.

            So much for charity and giving. I declare you to be not a christian.

            There, so take that.

            Rob

          • http://naver samurai

            You’re not entitled to anything you don’t earn. Such programs are not allowed under the Constitution, due to the Commerce Clause in the Constitution. Don’t you just like the way our Christian founders set up this country so the government don’t get out of control? FOR GOD AND COUNTRY!

            This was for Rob “Moron” Smith.

          • Jana

            RobertS,
            You are such a child. If you don’t have anything to say then DON”T.

          • Jana

            Robert, NO I don’t CLAIM to be a Christian, I AM A CHRISTIAN.

        • Robert Smith

          Yes Jim, you posted: ” like I did when we were ready to stop.”

          Yup, I’m happy you aren’t breeding anymore too.

          BTW, are you ready to admit that sex can be for pleasure and nothing else except that it feels good? You didn’t say you gave up sex.

          Most people participate in sex because it’s fun. Pregnancy is an accident, not an intent.

          Rob

          • http://naver samurai

            Rob, you are a fool! That is what sex is for. Unprotected leads to having babies. A fact of life. FOR GOD AND COUNTRY!

        • Robert Smith

          From Jim: “Once an egg is fertilized, it is a chicken…”

          No it isn’t. Not in my frying pan. It may be a touch different but that’s no nevermind. MOF, in some countries what’s developing in the egg is a delacy.

          Rob

          • http://naver samurai

            No intelligence and not worthy of a response. FOR GOD AND COUNTRY!

          • Robert Smith

            But you responded samurai.

            Rob

      • http://?? Joe H.

        Robert,
        do us all a big favor and shove the acorns where the sun don’t shine!!!

        • http://?? Joe H.

          P.S. to Robert. It’s close to the end of the month, GO WRITE YOUR CHECK!!!!

          • Robert Smith

            Awwwww, more personal insults from Joe. Ain’t bright enough to come up with a relevant argument, Joe?

            Rob

          • http://naver samurai

            Neither do you Rob, moron! Practice what you preach boy! What? Still no favts or sources just spreading hate, discontent, and lies? FOR GOD AND COUNTRY!

          • Robert Smith

            I don’t know who (if anyone) is moderating this lest but the name calling, particularly by samurai is persave from the right.

            Guess we can figure out where sympathies lie and who can get away with special privelages.

            Rob

          • http://naver samurai

            I think calling someone a liar is name calling also, moron. Still no facts or sources? I guess you just can’t present a good arguement, now can you moron? My post still stand as the truth. FOR GOD AND COUNTRY!

          • Robert Smith

            samurai says: “I think calling someone a liar is name calling also,”

            Not when someone knowingly posts something false. The best example is you calling abortion “murder.” Murder is a legal term and abortion is mostly legal in most of America. This has been pointed out to you many times.

            Until you can sort out sin from legal terms as you deliberately misuse words you will be called out as a liar.

            And, that’s the fact.

            Rob

          • http://naver samurai

            Sorry rob, you moron, but there are 20 sins listed in the Bible and we have laws that cover all of them. Murder is one of them. To do that to a person that cannot defend themselves isn’t just murder, it’s killing someone. Since our laws are based on the 10 Commandments and cover these sins, ergo they are not seperate and you are the one that looks like the moron now. And that’s a fact! FOR GOD AND COUNTRY!

          • Robert Smith

            From samurai: ” but there are 20 sins listed in the Bible…”

            Sins are NOT laws. There is no law in America that stops anyone from calling your brutal god the evil being that he is. There is no law that stops Americans from worshiping whatever god they want, even your awful god.

            So, sins are NOT law. Murder is a legal term, thus you are ling when you imply that abortion is “murder” under law.

            Rob

          • Jana

            Robert,
            Unfortunately there is no law against ignorance either.

  • Lori

    Cosette, Making the woman see the baby is not going to stop the coercion.

    • April

      Maybe not every woman Lori, but maybe she will get the final say, and realize that she is a mother already nurturing precious life within her. And maybe and hopefully her natural motherly instincts give her the courage and strength to protect the rights and chance to life of her child.

      • Kinetic1

        April,
        And once the child is born, assuming the parents and boyfriend are not willing to support her decision, who will care for that child? The right complains about government supported day care. They complain about welfare mothers and government health care. The complain about students who expect the government to pay for their schooling. The right has cut funds for head start and preschool, school lunches and education in general. Tell me, if the government is going to step in and tell her that she should (or must in some states) carry this fetus to term shouldn’t the same government take some responsibility for seeing that this child is raised to be a healthy, responsible citizen?

        • April

          First of all Kinetic1, it is the left who are complaining constantly about the next handout they feel they deserve from the government to cover their own backsides so they can do and get away with whatever they can without reaping the consequences of their actions. We should have not let weak spineless right wingers in a position who would work at accommodating the poor me babies of the left. Now innocent lives in the womb are no longer safe as a consequence. Rights give an inch, and the Left steals a mile. It is not the responsibility of the gov’t to provide for, but to insure the safety of the citizens therin.
          If abortion is to be legalized for any reason, this is a life and death decision. Personally I am convinced more and more every day that abortion is murder-not self defense. The sad reality is that these scenareos take place more and more as you stated above. This is proof in itself that everytime immoral acts are legalized too freely, another problem is created. Gov’t is incapable of raising a healthy responsible citizens; this will just cause more poor me babies that will expect another handout. People taking responsibilty for their own actions creates a learning environment where people get real help and healing, and solutions to problems can occur.

          • Kinetic1

            April,
            I appreciate the fact that you feel so strongly about your position, but your argument does not hold water. You have asked individuals to be responsible for their own actions, but due to your religious beliefs you want to prevent women from dealing with their problem as they see fit. The women likely knows if she will be able to care for her child. The women likely knows if she is too young, addicted to drugs or if it was a case of incest or rape. The mother likely made her decision based on her own reality and the facts available. Anyone who reads the papers knows that are hundreds of thousands of children in foster care. Current estimates also suggest that 1 in every 50 kids is homeless. The jobless rate is hovering around 9% and it’s even worse for single mothers. A women looking at these odds might just decide that it is irresponsible to bring a child into the world at this time. She may accept that she herself is not responsible enough to care for a child. She may have spoken with her friends, her clergy and her doctor and come to the conclusion that abortion was her best choice, but you won’t let her take responsibility for her actions because you believe that your God would not approve. Sorry, but you don’t get to make that choice.

          • eddie47d

            April never did answer your questions on the reality of unwanted pregnancies. I admire her comments to a point. If she sees abortion as murder then she would be willing to prosecute anyone who seeks the procedure. Conservatives seem to be too obsessed with putting people in our already burgeoning prisons.Getting an abortion shouldn’t be taken lightly yet their solutions are fairy extreme too and not always productive. We could say “if you give them an inch they will take a mile” Also!

          • April

            LOL!! No Kenetic1, you want to interfere with women really dealing with their own problems, probably due to your lack of belief in what is right, or your own experiences of trying to get out of your own responsibilities. You do not appreciate as you expect a handout from the gov’t, instead of really helping women to become stronger and take charge of their lives and not need to depend on an incapable gov’t. Okaying murder is not being responsible. You want the easy way out forcing others to pay for your lack of responsibility. You would have others choices taken away, and I encourage choices. You don;t get to interfere with my choices or others having a choice. Not only do you not have an argument, but you just like to argue.

          • Kinetic1

            April,
            Not only are you self righteous, but you have know idea who you are talking to. Not that it’s really any of your business, but my eldest was born when I was 19. We could have chosen abortion, but we had the child. I won’t go into detail, but unlike the stereotype “Liberal” you love to harp about I stuck it out, worked as many jobs as it took and even sued for visitation, even though I could have walked away and not paid a cent of support. In fact, I ended up raising my child, but if I hadn’t believed we could make it, or if his mother decided that she could not handle the shame of being a high school parent or felt that we could not raise him on or own I would have wanted her to be able to make that choice.

            Now is where you lecture me about the blessing that I have had these past decades, and I am glad to be a parent, but there have been times when my child (as an adult) has questioned our decision. It was a tough go at times. Since his mother and I never had time alone to build a solid relationship, it failed. Without the support of our families we would not have done as well as we did and not all women have that kind of back. As hard as it was on us, it’s the kid who gets the short end of the stick.

          • http://naver samurai

            April, you are right. Stick by your convictions. This is something the left doesn’t want you to do. My wife Sook Young and I have had 4 kids (3 boys and 1 girl) and we never thought once about an abortion. Before my wife got pregnant we went over everything. We had a good doctor, money in the bank, support of our families and our church members, supplies bought in advance (Crib, diapers, towels, etc.) and were prepared for everything. Edduh and Kinetic1 are just trying to use inuendo and left wing rhetoric to explain away a woman murdering her child. I’ll also ask you again edduh, how can you call yourself a Christian but live in rebellion to the Bible? Can’t do that, dude! Kinetic1, I understand what you have wrote. If you were 19 and the girl you were with was in high school, if you loved each other that much why didn’t you wait till marriage to have a child? You say your child asks why you and his mom didn’t have an abortion instead of letting him be born? Take it from a father of 4, you are the father so you should come forward (Yes, the father is the head of the family and responsible for everything.), sit him/her down, and tell the whole truth about the matter. You child may understand that you loved him enough to want them to live. As far as everything else, you two morons are no better that Rob “moron” Smith and his rantings. Remember, Rob had his soon to be ex wife have an abortion, because he wasn’t man enough to pay child support and his always hateful intentions. Stick by your guns for the sake of your child, Kinetic1. they’ll appreciate it more in the long run. FOR GOD AND COUNTRY!

          • Jana

            Samurai,
            You did it right. Thank you for being such a fine example.

          • Jana

            Kinectic1,
            YOU are the one sounding self righteous. You liberals all say the same thing, and if you find you aren’t able to come up with something any better you resort to calling someone self righteous.
            You created that child, you should raise that child. No one made you create that child, and now you want a medal for it. Phooey! You are a man, you took on the man’s responsibility shock shock but evidently aren’t happy with that decision. That just nullifies your manly position to cry baby.
            A lot of us don’t have it easy, but there is no promise on this earth that life is supposed to be easy. Even your beloved Obama is not making things easy. If you are old enough to have sex you are old enough to know that a baby could happen. If you are not smart enough to use a prophylactic then know you are going to be responsible for a life. or live with the fact that you murdered your baby.

          • April

            Kinetic1
            Standing up for what I know is right and voicing my strong convictions to defend the helpless unborn child as they cannot defend his/her self is not self-righteous. I hear folks like you all the time, and I care enough for them to tell them the truth. You did right by your family and did not abandon them. Now continue to do right by your child so that he knows he is worth it all and can pass that attitude forward. The folks that often take your stance are those who fear their child will make the same choices to have sex outside of marriage and be faced with the same consequences; so the parent will make excuses and try to justify abortion to make it easier on them instead of exercisng tough love, which all of us need at times to help us to grow.
            =======================================================================

            Samurai You and Sook are true Patriots!! Thankyou and God Bless You!!

          • Kinetic1

            Jana,
            I don’t want a medal and I never said I was unhappy with my decision. My point is that this ridiculous right wing rhetoric that Liberals will not take responsibility is bunk. In fact, I know of plenty of selfish right wing fathers who have walked out on their families. Accepting responsibility for ones’ actions has nothing to do with political philosophy and everything to do with personal values.

          • Kinetic1

            samurai,
            My child and I have discussed this issue many times over the past 30 years. here has never been any question of my love for my children, but knowing the difference between a well planed life with a solid income and an un-planed life with the problems that brings can make a child question what would have been best. I have two other children by another mother and both were well planed for, but at 18 or 19 few of us are as adult as we believe. Yes, I believe I did the right thing by remaining a part of my child’s life, but I was also supporting his mother’s choice. Had she chosen to seek an abortion I would have been there to support her as well.

          • Robert Smith

            samurai posted: “My wife Sook Young and I have had 4 kids (3 boys and 1 girl) and we never thought once about an abortion.”

            And if you give government control of reproductive issues THEN when administrations change America could end up like China. THEN you would HAVE to think about abortion.

            BTW, your four kids would be heavily sanctioned against in China. Yup, that’s government control. You claim you don’t want it but welcome to China like policies if you get it.

            Rob

          • Robert Smith

            Jana says: “You created that child,”

            I thought it was that there christian god of yours.

            So confusing these “christians.”

            They call denying health care “pro-life.”

            They think canabalism is good.

            They hate so many people like gays.

            I could keep going for a long time.

            Rob

          • http://naver samurai

            Rob, get off of the kool aid and lib lies. Second, why do you bring up China moron? You would like China more, because they perform abortions there, whether the mother wants one or not is irrelevent. How can you say that because we never sought an abortion this makes us one out to control what other people do? I have more respect for Kinetic1′s answer to my post than I do for you. You are nothing but pond scum, moron. Quit Christian bashing as it is classified as hate speech and punishible under the law. At least it is in Indiana. FOR GOD AND COUNTRY!

            P.S. Good job Kinetic1! Keep doing the job you’re doing with your son and things will be good over time. Hooooorrrrraaaaahhhhh!

          • April

            Kinetic1 you told Jana,”… this ridiculous right wing rhetoric that Liberals will not take responsibility is bunk. In fact, I know of plenty of selfish right wing fathers who have walked out on their families. Accepting responsibility for ones’ actions has nothing to do with political philosophy and everything to do with personal values.”

            First of all, no one is saying that it is only the left who abandon their responsibilities. There are plenty who do in both parties. There are also upstanding responsibility takers in both parties as well.
            Now, with that said, it is a fact that it is the liberals who push for more handouts to be made into law. And that is not the original intent of our gov’t. Think of our gov’t as a big eagle. It takes both wings to fly. If one wing is tied down then that bird cannot fly. The purpose of the right wing is to make sure there are enough funds for the sole pupose of protecting and defending our Nation and the Citizens therein. The purpose of the left wing is to design ways to make that happen. The plan is brought to the table and the right wing says there is only so much to fund this. So they look at ways to fund the solution to the problem. The Right wing usually look at ways to enhance and encourage free market and Capiitalism-My personal favorite approach, b/c this creates jobs and better solutions in just about every aspect of life. The Left wing usually wants to tax the people to death and spread the wealth so to speak, which proves mostly to rob the money makers.
            In 2006 when the liberals became the majority, the right wing became so bound that it crippled our eagle and gov’t became so top heavey it over burdened our eagle. We lost jobs as a result, devalued our dollar worth, stooped to borrowing from another nation, affirmative action and polical correctness tried to become the voice prejudice against those most qualified and prejudice against moral correctness. Now we are untying our eagles right wing and restrenghthening so that a balance returns to our nation.

          • Robert Smith

            samurai asks: “why do you bring up China”

            Because it is such a fine example of government control over women and families in reproductive issues. The government wants small families and provides the means, incentives, birth control (including abortion), and a social environment that encourages those small families.

            That could easily happen in America. If there are enough extremists who give government control over reproductive issues THEN that same control can be used when administrations change to make things go the other way.

            It’s best to let each woman decide rather than the government, churches, or even you samurai.

            Besides, what makes the government or you smarter than any individual woman in America. I doubt you are more moral, I doubt you are any smarter, and I doubt you know or care anything about their personal lives. You are just trying to get your ticket to heaven with your brutal god punched.

            Fortunately there are lots of true Americans who appreciate freedoms in America standing in your way.

            Rob

          • http://naver samurai

            Sorry rob, moron, but all our rights are God given. Something you don’t understand. Must be because you are no American. FOR GOD AND COUNTRY!

          • Robert Smith

            What part of “We the PEOPLE…” did you miss samurai?

            THAT is what America is built upon, the PEOPLE, not your brutal god.

            Rob

          • http://naver samurai

            Rob, still ignorant in our country’s history and it’s founding? Sorry Rob, but if you read all of our founding documents (Articles of Confederation, 2 of them, DOI, and the Constitution) you’ll see many times they mentioned God, Jesus, or Christianity in either a direct way or indirect way. We the people is not the foundation of this country’s founding. There’s no use in discussing this point with you moron, due to you being hopelessly bereft of intelligence. FOR GOD AND COUNTRY!

        • Robert Smith

          Kenetic asks: “And once the child is born,…”

          Well, there is that staunch conception to birth right wing advocacy. Then they forget about them and actively seek to undermine any chance the kid will have a chance.

          That’s the way of the right wing. Conception to birth and then forget them.

          Rob

          • http://naver samurai

            And the libs just believe in a woman murdering her child and getting handouts. What a moron! FOR GOD AND COUNTRY!

          • Robert Smith

            samurai again with the lie of “murder.”

            And the name calling…

            Who’s in charge around here?

            Rob

          • libertytrain

            certainly not you.

          • http://naver samurai

            You are the one lying moron (Rob)! Look up the definition of murder. Next, God is the one in charge here and not fools like you. FOR GOD AND COUNTRY!

          • Robert Smith

            Shucks samurai, your god is doing a crummy job IMO. I’d fire him if I were you.

            First, I’m still here.

            And what’s with him not listening to you? Abortion is still mostly legal and Obama is still President.

            Oh, and all those tornados and dead Americans. What’s with that?

            Again, I’d fire that brutal god if he were mine.

            BTW, he hasn’t done anything bad to me. No drug addiction, no serious sickness, lots of loving among the people around me…

            Rob

            Rob

          • http://naver samurai

            Sorry [insult removed], but I can’t answer a post with no facts, sources, and nothing but a rant by some left wing, Christian bashing (Illegal hate speech), wacko. You sound almost Nazi-like to me. FOR GOD AND COUNTRY!

  • http://personalliberty.com Cosette Sullivan

    Actually, the vast majority of women (of all ages) who view the sonogram decide not to terminate the pregnancy, so, yes, sonograms do save many lives. This is why so many abortion mills DO NOT want the sonogram machinery to be made available because it’s costing them to lost the money charged for an abortion.

    • Robert Smith

      Abortions are cheap and there are generally no further expenses after.

      The sonogram done several times thorugh pregnancy will more than make up the difference.

      And then there is all that care as the kid grows up…

      Rob

      • Dale on the left coast

        This law will be really tough on the leftists/marxists . . . they will actually see what they are about to execute!!!
        These are the same limp-wristed folks that are against Capital Punshment . . . in favor of only Criminals having Guns . . .
        Once again the left proves . . . lieberalism is a mental disorder!!!

        • eddie47d

          “In favor of criminals only allowed to have guns”? Nothing could be farther from the truth and that is more of the fear mongering from the right coast.

        • Robert Smith

          Dale lies and posts: “AnThese are the same limp-wristed folks that are against Capital Punshment . . . in favor of only Criminals having Guns . . .”

          Actually I’m in favor of the death penalty, particularly for doctor killers.

          And I have my gun permit and I ain’t a criminal.

          Why do you have to lie? Ohhhhh, no valid information. Oh well, I’ve learned the right does that. Carry on Dale.

          Rob

          • http://naver samurai

            Once again Rob, moron, you show just how moronic you really are. No sources, facts, just lies, rhetoric, and inuendo. Why is it if someone believes differently than you do, they are branded a liar? Need to make that popping sound here soon! FOR GOD AND COUNTRY!

          • Robert Smith

            samurai asks: “they are branded a liar?”

            Because the claim that liberals are anti-gun. You yourself have called me a liberal many times, yet I support gun rights strongly. It’s another aspect of my pro-choice advocacy and being a free American.

            So, the absolute presented was clearly a lie, I used myself as an example as a lib with a gun, and called him out on it.

            Rob

          • http://naver samurai

            Guns are not the subject her moron, it’s abortion. Next, being American doesn’t mean being pro in everything. There are some things that shouldn’t be done, even if they are legal. FOR GOD AND COUNTRY!

          • Robert Smith

            samurai says: ” There are some things that shouldn’t be done, even if they are legal.”

            Yes, canabalism is one.

            Trying to use an alleged divine power to mess with the life of another is another.

            Oh, and all that name calling you do… Does your brutal god approve of that, or is he ignoring you?

            Rob

          • http://naver samurai

            Why do you advocate the same thing moron? The child inside the mother is a different human being, but you say that a woman can impose her will on it? Sorry [insult removed], but you can’t have it both ways. Ooops! I forgot you do have it both ways. Ewwwww! FOR GOD AND COUNTRY!

      • April

        You Rob have the heart of a thief and a murderer. You would rob a woman of the fairness of having the most knowlege about a decision she is about to make. You have no idea the needs, thinking, or the chemistry of a woman. All you focus on is the negative aspects of life. There are more positives than negatives to pro-life. Your blinders have to be glued to your eyes for you to think the backwards and unrealistic ways that you do.HMMMPH!!

        • DC/Tex

          There should not be any decision if the girl was raped or incest she will have filed charges within hours of the crime and if pregnant she can immediately have an abortion if she has not met this criteria it should be considered murder if she has an abortion by the doctor and the patient. God says he knows us while we are still in the womb.

        • Kinetic1

          April,
          There are no laws limiting the amount of information that a women can acquire and I agree that a women should have all the information she needs going in. The issue here is that even if she does have all the information, the state want’s to take one last stab at forcing her to feel guilty and back out. Again, for a group that complains about the intrusion of government you folks sure are blind when it comes to abortion.

          • April

            No Kinetic1
            The issue is not as you stated, “The issue here is that even if she does have all the information, the state want’s to take one last stab at forcing her to feel guilty and back out.” The issue is to insure she has the info before making a life and death decision. And if the state is expected to pay for the taking of the life of the innocent unborn child, then taxpayers are being intruded upon as we’re forced to pay for murder of our own-instead of protecting and defending our own. Again, some of you lefties are sadly blinded to the difference. You’d rather set a murdering criminal free than protect the innocent helpless child. How backwards and warped that is!!

          • Kinetic1

            April,
            You assume that the women does not already have the information. You assume that the State is paying the bill. You assume that you know all about these women and their situations and that your religious beliefs are more important than those of the women. Fortunately our government is not based on your assumptions.

          • April

            You assume too much that women do have that info. You assume you know all about these hurting women and big daddy gov’t knows what is best. Gov’t should not be based on assumption at all. I will tell you what I assume. These women need emotional encouragement and to be empowered with knowlege of consequences so that they can become happy with the outcome of thier choices.

          • Kinetic1

            April,
            It appears that the difference between us is that I want the women to be free from coercion and happy with whatever choice she makes. You want the women to be happy with her choice, but only as long as it’s the choice you approve of.

          • Jana

            Kinectic1,
            That’s not what I read into what April is saying. She is simply saying that women should have ALL of the information available. There are too many women that have lived to regret what they did. For pity sakes, let them make an informed decision.
            You sound like you want women to live in the dark ages. Even an informed woman can have an abortion. You are right, it is her decision, but let her know all of the facts both ways.

          • GregS

            Well said, Jana!

          • Robert Smith

            Jana says: “You are right, it is her decision, but let her know all of the facts both ways.”

            And if she decides she knows enough without jumping through right wing hoops like the law just passed…

            Why do you support another government mandate? I thought the right was opposed to such things.

            Rob

          • http://naver samurai

            Why do you disapprove of this Rob? You’re a lib moron and they believe in bigger government, so why are you against it? Do you go both ways? Ewwwwww! FOR GOD AND COUNTRY!

        • Robert Smith

          From April who claims: “You have no idea the needs, thinking, or the chemistry of a woman…”

          I sure DO. It’s simple! I ASK. and I LISTEN.

          I’m not inclined to presume she is an ignorant slut who must see a sonogram because I want to exert influence on her decision. I’ll ask her if she wants one and if she does I’ll do all I can to help her get it. If she says she doesn’t want it then that’s the end of the discussion. Note the period at the end of that sentence.

          So, who respects a woman more? You who presumes she’s an ignorant slut for getting pregnant and she “needs” information you want to give her or myself who asks her, listens, and respects her answer?

          Rob

          • http://naver samurai

            Considering you have no respect for anyone, it is easy to say that April does. You said that you would help her to get one? If it is the woman’s choice, then you need to but out of the conversation. It’s none of your business. FOR GOD AND COUNTRY!

          • April

            Rob, It is quite doubtful that you ask. It is very obvious that you do NOT LISTEN, do NOT RESPECT, and do NOT KNOW GOD. You and those with your mindset are brutal murderers at heart and try to force your brutality on others. Then you have the audacity to blame bad circumstances on a loving merciful GOD that shares with us how to stay out of trouble. HE never forces HIS way, but informs us of the natural consequences of our actions- good and bad, and to recognize danger signs so that we can help eachother. It is people who refuse to listen and heed HIS Wise Counsel.
            Ya know You are a poor pitiful little person who craves attention sooo desperately. You sound like someone who is the victum of abuse, and maybe now the abuser. You really fit the pattern and really in need of help.

          • Jana

            Robert,
            That is exactly what exatly is doing. No one is FORCING her to view the sonogram, the law says she has to be offered the right to view it.
            You are making a mountain out of a molehill.

          • http://naver sook young

            Robert, I don’t care what you say. If you don’t respect the life of a defenseless child, then you don’t respect women. This is one of the reasons we women were created and have no right to force our will on another person, to count the child inside of us. You really need to deal with your serious mental issues you show on this site. Thank you.

            Sook Young
            Wife of the Samurai

      • JimH

        Hi Robby, I see your using the same, lame retoric that’s been refuted in the past. Do you think if you keep repeting it over and over it will become true? The flaw in your whole theory is, That it really is a human baby. Once you wrap your head around that, it will become clear to you.

      • http://?? Joe H.

        robert,
        And all those checks!!!!

  • Gloria

    Many young people have been now thoroughly brainwashed by our culture. Oh so arrogant about not being forced to view the image of the human being, just like yourselves, that you helped create by your own free will! You have rights? From where? and secured by whom? Do you have a right to run a red light and kill another person? How about letting your mother and father choose to kill you when you are 35 and living in their basement? They didn’t flush you down a drain and forget you. Yet your murderous souls are emboldened. I wouldn’t hire anyone like you. Your intelligence and morality have been sucked out of you. You have entered the womb of Evil and the end game is Hell. Millions throughout the centuries chose by their own free will the unfathomable divine mercy of God, who loves us, and who, when we repent no matter what we do, forgives us. We are all subject to temptation and great sin. Murder won’t make it OK.

    Simpy put, there is a war. Will our nation, and world, be without morality(secular) or regain its morality (Christ)? The basic war is against Christ. The most arrogant are willing warriors for the Culture of death. Your God will hold you accountable even if you don’t believe in Him. He will judge you and the whole world when it embraces the murder of millions of its citizens, in the womb or the sick elderly, who have no choice. Women can choose not to lay down and men can choose to keep their pants zipped up. Otherwise, you are playing with great darkness. As if in the path of a great tornado, you will have no place to run, no place to hide. Only God can save you, love you, and forgive you. God never changes. He is eternal.

    • karolyn

      In my belief, there is nothing wrong with death, and it is actually the choice of the spirit. Then that spirit can choose to come again in another body…or not. Death is the ultimate freedom for the spirit.

      • Jay

        The “Sacrament” of Abortion

        Fr. Frank Pavone
Founding Director
Priests for Life

        The Sacrament of Abortion is the title of a book written by Ginette Paris and published in 1992. In this short book, the author claims that abortion is a sacred act, a sacrifice to Artemis (known to the Romans as Diana).

        Artemis is both a protector of wild animals and a hunter who kills them with deadly aim. How can these contradictory roles be found in the same female deity? The view proposed in this book is that a mother properly cares for life only if she possesses full power over life and death. Death is sometimes preferable. The one who can provide death, in order that one may escape an unfriendly life, is really loving the one who is being killed.

        Abortion, then, is seen as “an expression of maternal responsibility and not a failure of maternal love” (p.8). “Artemis stands for the refusal to give life if the gift is not pure and untainted….As Artemis might kill a wounded animal rather than allow it to limp along miserably, so a mother wishes to spare the child a painful destiny” (p. 55).

        Artemis, of course, is the same goddess whose worshippers felt so threatened by Paul’s proclamation of the Gospel in Ephesus, where a riot nearly broke out and a vast crowd shouted for two hours, “Great is Artemis of the Ephesians!” (Acts 19:34). The worshippers of Artemis today should likewise feel that their beliefs are threatened, because the proclamation of the Gospel of Christ is that He alone has authority over life and death. Neither the mother, nor the father, nor the state, nor the individual herself, can claim absolute dominion over life. “Nobody lives as his own master, and nobody dies as his own master. While we live, we are responsible to the Lord, and when we die, we die as His servants. Both in life and death, we are the Lord’s” (Rom. 14:7-8).

        The fact that some defend abortion as a sacred act should alert us to the depth of the spiritual warfare that is going on. Abortion has never been merely or even primarily a political issue. It is a false religion. When pro-life Christians, for example, pray in front of an abortion mill, it is not simply a matter of pro-life people opposing false medicine. It is the true Church in conflict with a false Church. One former clinic security guard, after being converted, admitted why he was angry at pro-life sidewalk counselors: “You were coming to protest in front of our church. That clinic was where we conducted our worship.”
        May all believers, and their clergy, take renewed strength to speak out against abortion. Not only is doing so consistent with the proclamation of the Gospel; it is the proclamation of the Gospel.

         http://www.priestsforlife.org/columns/columns2002/02-08-12sacramentofabortion.htm

        • Robert Smith

          If priests could get pregnant there truly would be a sacrament of abortion.

          Nuns had (among other locations) a “special” hospital in Holyoke, MA, because they got pregnant. How did they get pregnant? I don’t know. Maybe they dressed like an alterboy.

          Rob

          • http://naver samurai

            Can you come up with something not so moronic? FOR GOD AND COUNTRY!

          • Robert Smith

            Hey samurai, did you hear the news? There is a trickle of information starting to flow that other powerful guys in churches helped the pedophile priests and they are being held accountable. Some of them are thought to be pedophiles themselves.

            Rob

          • http://naver samurai

            Care to cite a source [insult removed] or is this just another of your many lies? Remember [insult removed], Hitler was even big on abortions. FOR GOD AND COUNTRY!

          • http://www.personalliberty.com/contact-us/ Personal Liberty Support

            Samurai,

            Please refrain from using insults. Mr. Livingston has asked us to crack down on the name calling.

            Thanks,
            Moderator

          • Jana

            Samurai,
            Robert and his idiocy would drive a duck to drink, so I understand your frustration.
            This is why the Bible states,

            Matt 7:6
            6 Give not that which is holy to dogs; neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest perhaps they trample them under their feet,……

            And, Robert is the perfect example of dogs and swine here.

          • Jana

            Samurai,
            Remember who and what we are dealing with.

          • http://naver sook young

            Bob Livingston and staff, I’ll help my husband to not print insults on this posting site. I only ask that if I do this, can you get others like Robert Smith to quit calling people liars? This is a bigger insult than calling someone “moron”, like my husband does. Could you also get him to stop Christian bashing and saying very vile things against our God? Freedom of speech does have its limits. Bashing speech is considered hate speech in Indiana and is illegal. I’ll help you out as best as I can. Thank you.

            Sook Young
            Wife of the Samurai

          • Jana

            Personal Liberty Support,
            I agree with Sook Young on this. You chastised Samurai for using insults while ignoring a vile, foul mouthed, and foul minded man like Robert Smith who uses every opportunity to insult God and anyone who believes in Him.

          • http://naver sook young

            I agree with you Jana. Robert is a very hateful man and cares about nothing, but himself and his far left beliefs. I think he needs to remember this:

            “May that Being that is supreme over all, the Patron of Order, the Foundation of Justice, and the Protector in all ages of the world of virtuous liberty, continue His blessings upon this nation.” John Adams.

            If people continue to go against the blessings we have received, Robert and other people on this site, he will take them away from us and will will suffer for it. Abortion is one of those things. Abortion is the murdering of an innocent child. Anyone that supports such things are no better than someone who kills someone for drug money or other things. Those that encourage people to do this are just as guily before God as the ones who commit the sin of murder. Let’s protect the unborn and our future generations. Thank you.

            Sook Young
            Wife of the Samurai

      • http://?? Joe H.

        karolyn,
        IF that is true, then why does even a newborn struggle to reach the surface of the water when drowning??? They know very little at that age so the “spirit” would take over!

    • Kinetic1

      Gloria,
      The Constitution allows you the freedom to hold and express your beliefs, but it also precludes you from forcing them on others through our government. Your defense of this and other abortion laws is based on your religious belief that there is a God and that “life” begins at conception, but not everybody believes as you do. As long as the majority of Americans believe that it is a women’s right to choose you have no more right to deny her that right than she does to require that you get one. If she is wrong about God and the punishment that she may receive, than that is between her and her God.

      • Jay

        THE FIRST KEY TACTIC WAS TO CAPTURE THE MEDIA
        We persuaded the media that the cause of permissive abortion was a liberal enlightened,
        sophisticated one. Knowing that if a true poll were taken, we would be soundly defeated,
        we simply fabricated the results of fictional polls. We announced to the media that we
        had taken polls and that 60% of Americans were in favour of permissive abortion. This is
        the tactic of the self-fulfilling lie. Few people care to be in the minority. We aroused
        enough sympathy to sell our program of permissive abortion by fabricating the number of
        illegal abortions done annually in the U.S. The actual figure was approaching 100,000 but
        the figure we gave to the media repeatedly was 1,000,000. Repeating the big lie often
        enough convinces the public. The number of women dying from illegal abortions was around
        200-250 annually. The figure we constantly fed to the media was 10,000. These false
        figures took root in the consciousness of Americans convincing many that we needed to
        crack the abortion law. Another myth we fed to the public through the media was that
        legalising abortion would only mean that the abortions taking place illegally would then
        be done legally. In fact, of course, abortion is now being used as a primary method of
        birth control in the U.S. and the annual number of abortions has increased by 1500% since
        legalisation.

      • http://?? Joe H.

        kenetic,
        show me a link to the fact that a majority of people supported abortion!! A vote was never taken. In fact, in every state that any law governing any controls on abortion, they are soundly passed!! Roe vs Wade was a supreme court decision, not a vote!!

        • http://naver samurai

          I agree, fellow patriot. That’s why Indiana is now the toughest state to get an abortion. FOR GOD AND COUNTRY!

        • Kinetic1

          Joe,
          I never said that they did or didn’t at the time. What I said was AS LONG AS a majority remains pro choice. I am speaking of now. What was or was not true 40 years ago is pointless. Year after year polls show a slightly larger number of Americans support a women’s right to choose, though some would still support some restrictions. Currently, the balance seems to be about 54/42, (http://minnesotaindependent.com/78938/poll-more-americans-support-legal-abortion-in-most-cases-than-did-a-year-ago)
          but since ’95 the Pew research polls have never shown anything less than a tie in favor of pro-choice.

          As far as public opinion before Roe v Wade, consider that by 1970 as many as 13 States had passed laws permitting abortion, though the conditions varied. And for those of you who want to preach about our Christian founders and the Constitution, consider this from Wikipedea;

          “There were few laws on abortion in the United States at the time of independence, except the English common law adopted into United States law by Acts of Reception, which held abortion to be legally acceptable if occurring before quickening. James Wilson, a framer of the U.S. Constitution, explained as follows:
          “ With consistency, beautiful and undeviating, human life, from its commencement to its close, is protected by the common law. In the contemplation of law, life begins when the infant is first able to stir in the womb. By the law, life is protected not only from immediate destruction, but from every degree of actual violence, and, in some cases, from every degree of danger.

          Bottom line, I respect your beliefs and convictions, but not so much that I would support your attemps to impose them on the rest of the country.

        • Robert Smith

          Joe, your false information has been refuted from http://www.yeaperson.com/Abortion-links.html: “South Dakota, a heartland state, in the November 2006 election with a large turnout 56% state-wide voted against a ban of abortions. In heavily Republican Pennington County 61% rejected the abortion ban; in Custer County in the conservative southern Black Hills 66% voted against the ban, the Associated Press reported. In the November 2008 election another ban was voted upon that, unlike the one two years before, had exceptions for rape, incest, and the health of the mother. This version was defeated state-wide with a higher voter turnout than two years before by a 55% vote.”

          AND Joe, abortion was 100% legal in America prir to the end of the 1800s pretty much without question.

          Abortion restriction was advocated because germs and such were becoming understood and doctors (the AMA) wanted to protect women and corner the market on doctoring.

          It can be said that GREED was part of what made abortion illegal.

          Rob

          • http://naver samurai

            Then tell me why there is no PP abortion clinic is South Dakota? Just another rant I see. FOR GOD AND COUNTRY!

          • Jay

            It can be said that it was Greed that made abortion legal.

            Why, you may well ask, do some American doctors who are privy to the findings of foetology, discredit themselves by carrying out abortions? Simple arithmetic at $300 a time, 1.55 million abortions means an
            industry generating $500,000,000 annually, of which most goes into the pocket of the
            physician doing the abortion.

          • http://naver sook young

            This is true Jay and Robert is just saying false information to get us off of the subject. He does this when he is unable to debate, which seems to be all the time. Thank you.

            Sook Young
            Wife of the Samurai

      • Jay

        Kinetic1 says: The Constitution allows you the freedom to hold and express your beliefs, but it also precludes you from forcing them on others through our government.

        So Kinetic1, are you saying that all, in the “pro-choice” movement were forcing their beliefs on others, through government, when they finally coerced government to make abortion legal, and enforced, through the rule of law? Yes you are! You are hopeless! Your argument? Pathetically weak!!!

        • Kinetic1

          Jay,
          When we have a choice we are not forced. My position is that the government should not restrict our access to abortion based on the beliefs of a religion. You, on the other hand would have us all live by your rules to satisfy your beliefs, no matter how it directly affects our lives. Roe v Wade only forced people on your side of the fence to deal with other people making a choice that you do not approve of.

          • Jay

            Kinetic1 says: When we have a choice we are not forced. My position is that the government should not restrict our access to abortion based on the beliefs of a religion.

            Kinetic, who told you that anti-abortionists are all religious people, who are opposed to abortion strictly based on religious bias? Are you saying that only religious people have an aversion to abortion and only religious people are opposed to abortion? Do you suppose that there may be secular, non-religious people, who are against abortion? I suppose that you are one of those who believes that all obama critics are white, and criticize obama, not on his idiotic policies, but because he’s black, therefore, they are all racists! Could there be black people who are critical of obama in the group? You sound very racist and intellectually one-dimensional!!!

            Kinetic1 says: You, on the other hand would have us all live by your rules to satisfy your beliefs, no matter how it directly affects our lives.

            Kinetic, stop being so self-centered! We are not talking about your life, I’m sure you can competently defend yourself! We are talking about an unborn human being who can’t defend his/her self! How is my, and what should be yours, desire to speak in the defence of the helpless, who are about to be butchered, impinging on your life and forcing you to live by my rules? How can you be so out of tune, or perhaps indoctrinated?

            Roe v Wade only forced people on your side of the fence to deal with other people making a choice that you do not approve of.

            There are many from your side who have, since the ruling, defected! What does that say about your side? Roe v Wade was a ruling based on fabricated evidence and inaccurate information, not to mention there was no democratic vote allowed on the issue! BTW, a recent poll revealed 61% of Americans are against abortion, and not all are Christians! What a surprise! The truth be told, Kinetic, you and your bunch are being dishonest and shortsighted when you say its about the rights of the women, when you conveniently fail to mention, and deny, the rights of the un-born! This is not justice, but murder! It has nothing to do with religion, necessarily, as not all who oppose abortion are religious, just human common sense and decency! You should be ashamed of yourself!!!

          • Kinetic1

            Jay,
            Yes, based on numbers I generalized and spoke only of those who object on a religious basis. I apologize, but are you denying that they make up the majority of those who are not pro choice? As for the President, I do not claim to know the race or reason of those who oppose his policies, but their seem to be plenty of people on this site who are willing to tell me what my view of him is (even though it flies in the face of what I have written.) As a matter of fact, you yourself seem bound and determined to tell me what I should believe as well!

            “How is my, and what should be yours (sic), desire to speak in the defence of the helpless who are about to be butchered, impinging on your life and forcing you to live by my rules?”

            If I am of the opinion that a fetus in the first weeks is not a yet a human being, then your argument means nothing to me. The fact that you think that I should accept your view and that you are willing to pass laws to force me to accept your view is impinging on my and other’s lives life and forcing us to live by your rules.

            As to your poll, please share the results with us. In return, here is a site for you to look at. http://www.pollingreport.com/abortion.htm
            Note that in poll after poll more people support keeping abortion legal in at least some circumstances. Americans may call themselves pro-life or pro-choice, the may find abortion morally acceptable or morally wrong, they may be religiously opposed or not, they may even say that they would never consider having an abortion themselves, but the majority continues to support the right to choose.

          • Jay

            Yes, based on numbers I generalized and spoke only of those who object on a religious basis. I apologize, but are you denying that they make up the majority of those who are not pro choice? As for the President, I do not claim to know the race or reason of those who oppose his policies, but their seem to be plenty of people on this site who are willing to tell me what my view of him is (even though it flies in the face of what I have written.) As a matter of fact, you yourself seem bound and determined to tell me what I should believe as well!

            Kinetic, how am I telling you what you should believe? You stated that a fetus in the first three weeks is not a person, I stated that it is! How do you construe that as forcing you in what you should believe? Could I lay the same charge on you?

            “How is my, and what should be yours (sic), desire to speak in the defence of the helpless who are about to be butchered, impinging on your life and forcing you to live by my rules?”

            If I am of the opinion that a fetus in the first weeks is not a yet a human being, then your argument means nothing to me. The fact that you think that I should accept your view and that you are willing to pass laws to force me to accept your view is impinging on my and other’s lives life and forcing us to live by your rules.

            Again, I stated my opinion, you stated yours. You seem to have your defences up regarding this issue. You seem to view anyone who doesn’t agree with you as out to get you, convert you! Are you sure you are confident in your position?

            As to your poll, please share the results with us. In return, here is a site for you to look at. http://www.pollingreport.com/abortion.htm
            Note that in poll after poll more people support keeping abortion legal in at least some circumstances. Americans may call themselves pro-life or pro-choice, the may find abortion morally acceptable or morally wrong, they may be religiously opposed or not, they may even say that they would never consider having an abortion themselves, but the majority continues to support the right to choose.

            Off course, you cannot legislate morality, nevertheless, one cannot avoid the consequences of breaking moral law.

          • April

            THANKYOU!!WELL SAID JAY!! He tried argueing with me too. Kinetic1 seems very insecure on his position. It is like he is trying to convince himself but not really on board with his stand. Or it may be that he just likes to argue/I do not know why as he has no real arguement. Anyway, I like what you said Jay.

          • Robert Smith

            Jay asks: “who told you that anti-abortionists are all religious people, who are opposed to abortion strictly based on religious bias?”

            Not dealing in absolutes, but…

            If it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, has webbed feet, waddles, swims, has a bill…

            It’s duck.

            Rob

          • http://naver samurai

            Sorry rob, moron, but there are also atheists and buddhists that are against abortion. Are you going to bash them too? FOR GOD AND COUNTRY!

          • Jay

            Samurai, robert is a racist!

          • http://naver sook young

            Sorry Robert, but you are wrong again. There are people that are pro-life in both genders, different religions, and races, so where do you think that Christians are the only ones? You can ask my sisters that are Buddhists and they’ll tell you the same thing. Thank you.

            Sook Young
            Wife of the Samurai

        • Robert Smith

          Jay says: ” Americans may call themselves pro-life or pro-choice,…”

          Yup, and the “pro-life” ones are lying if they don’t support health care for all Americans, or all human beings for that matter, EVEN THE BORN ONES.

          Rob

          • http://naver samurai

            Universal health care is unconstitutional as it violates the Commerce Clause of the Constitution. Also moron, people die everyday with insurance. Ergo, you have no point and not arguement. FOR GOD AND COUNTRY!

          • Jay

            Robert, we don’t support murder!

          • http://naver sook young

            I agree with you Jay. Thank you.

            Sook Young
            Wife of the Samurai

  • Jay

    CONFESSION OF AN EX-ABORTIONIST
    By Dr. Bernard Nathanson

    I am personally responsible for 75,000 abortions. This legitimises my credentials
    to speak to you with some authority on the issue. I was one of the founders of the
    National Association for the Repeal of the Abortion Laws (NARAL) in the U.S. in 1968.
    A truthful poll of opinion then would have found that most Americans were against
    permissive abortion. Yet within five years we had convinced the U.S. Supreme Court
    to issue the decision which legalised abortion throughout America in 1973 and produced
    virtual abortion on demand up to birth. How did we do this? It is important to understand
    the tactics involved because these tactics have been used throughout the western world
    with one permutation or another, in order to change abortion law.

    THE FIRST KEY TACTIC WAS TO CAPTURE THE MEDIA
    We persuaded the media that the cause of permissive abortion was a liberal enlightened,
    sophisticated one. Knowing that if a true poll were taken, we would be soundly defeated,
    we simply fabricated the results of fictional polls. We announced to the media that we
    had taken polls and that 60% of Americans were in favour of permissive abortion. This is
    the tactic of the self-fulfilling lie. Few people care to be in the minority. We aroused
    enough sympathy to sell our program of permissive abortion by fabricating the number of
    illegal abortions done annually in the U.S. The actual figure was approaching 100,000 but
    the figure we gave to the media repeatedly was 1,000,000. Repeating the big lie often
    enough convinces the public. The number of women dying from illegal abortions was around
    200-250 annually. The figure we constantly fed to the media was 10,000. These false
    figures took root in the consciousness of Americans convincing many that we needed to
    crack the abortion law. Another myth we fed to the public through the media was that
    legalising abortion would only mean that the abortions taking place illegally would then
    be done legally. In fact, of course, abortion is now being used as a primary method of
    birth control in the U.S. and the annual number of abortions has increased by 1500% since
    legalisation.

    THE SECOND KEY TACTIC WAS TO PLAY THE CATHOLIC CARD
    We systematically vilified the Catholic Church and its “socially backward ideas” and
    picked on the Catholic hierarchy as the villain in opposing abortion. This theme was
    played endlessly. We fed the media such lies as “we all know that opposition to abortion
    comes from the hierarchy and not from most Catholics” and “Polls prove time and again
    that most Catholics want abortion law reform”. And the media drum-fired all this into the
    American people, persuading them that anyone opposing permissive abortion must be under
    the influence of the Catholic hierarchy and that Catholics in favour of abortion are
    enlightened and forward-looking. An inference of this tactic was that there were no non-
    Catholic groups opposing abortion. The fact that other Christian as well as non-Christian
    religions were {and still are) monolithically opposed to abortion was constantly
    suppressed, along with pro-life atheists’ opinions.

    THE THIRD KEY TACTIC WAS THE DENIGRATION AND SUPPRESSION OF ALL
    SCIENTIFIC EVIDENCE THAT LIFE BEGINS AT CONCEPTION
    I am often asked what made me change my mind. How did I change from prominent abortionist
    to pro-life advocate? In 1973, I became director of obstetrics of a large hospital in New
    York City and had to set up a prenatal research unit, just at the start of a great new
    technology which we now use every day to study the foetus in the womb. A favourite pro-
    abortion tactic is to insist that the definition of when life begins is impossible; that
    the question is a theological or moral or philosophical one, anything but a scientific
    one. Foetology makes it undeniably evident that life begins at conception and requires
    all the protection and safeguards that any of us enjoy. Why, you may well ask, do some
    American doctors who are privy to the findings of foetology, discredit themselves by
    carrying out abortions? Simple arithmetic at $300 a time, 1.55 million abortions means an
    industry generating $500,000,000 annually, of which most goes into the pocket of the
    physician doing the abortion. It is clear that permissive abortion is purposeful
    destruction of what is undeniably human life. It is an impermissible act of deadly
    violence. One must concede that unplanned pregnancy is a wrenchingly difficult dilemma,
    but to look for its solution in a deliberate act of destruction is to trash the vast
    resourcefulness of human ingenuity, and to surrender the public weal to the classic
    utilitarian answer to social problems.

    AS A SCIENTIST I KNOW, NOT BELIEVE, KNOW THAT HUMAN LIFE BEGINS AT
    CONCEPTION
    Although I am not a formal religionist, I believe with all my heart that there is a
    divinity of existence which commands us to declare a final and irreversible halt to this
    infinitely sad and shameful crime against humanity.
     

    [Dr. Nathanson has since converted to Catholicism, being baptised in 1996.]
    http://www.aboutabortions.com/Confess.html

    • Robert Smith

      Dr. Bernard Nathanson

      What a jackass. He is the same doctor who was about to lose his license because he performed an abortion on his girl friend.

      He’s the same doctor who lied in the “Silent Scream” with false information and exagerations.

      All one needs to do is google “Rebuttle – Silent Scream”. There is a huge amount of information out there debunking that piece of propaganda.

      Rob

      • http://naver samurai

        Not as bad as that Doctor Mengele type Tiller “The Baby Killer.” I guess you Nazis run in the same circles. FOR GOD AND COUNTRY!

      • Jay

        Robert, you lie, and do you know why you lie? Because you are a lie!!!

        • http://naver samurai

          That’s because lie is his middle name. FOR GOD AND COUNTRY!

    • April

      WOW, An Eye Opener!! This really is good to be aware of!!!

  • Linda

    The 1st choice is to say “No”, the second is birth control, the third WOULD have been the day after pill (at least that would cause the woman to have a mense to lose the zygote).

    Whadda ya know – I AM prochoice.

  • i41

    When the women who want a abortion, just handle it like a TV repair take all works in the drawer out and casterate the sperm donor, solve any further problems of unwanted pregrancies. Start in the prisions with the cutting programs since the dregs of society are in there, most are worthless puke and donors who keep on creating more welfare smucks. Trim both males and female fence jumpers and drug runners. since these speciums of crap can be taken care of with out any hospitalization and a needed doctor. All right on the spot of apprehention, think of the taxpayers money saved. Use a Braddesso on the males and a hand held radition device over the overaies to kill the reproduction of eggs. Then release and gather the next group of fence crawlers. Since muslims like the knife method cut off the problem causing appendages and cauterise the wound, like when we dehorn livestock. Then it could refered as free choice personal decision, you break our rules and it will have a change for you.

    • karolyn

      i41 – I’ve said it before. You sure sound like a communist to me!

  • Justin

    Good for Texas! If somebody is going to take a life, they should know what they are really doing. So many talk about the rights of the mother. What about the rights of the child?

  • newspooner

    Sonogram requirement before abortion is not a very radical idea. Kind of common sense. But Gov. Perry’s dictatorial support of required Gardasil shots for young girls is disgusting and unAmerican.

  • Thamera

    hey folks, karolyn and Robert S. excellent examples of bleeding hearts but only for the medically confirmed living. The spirit chooses to live or die karolyn? That is quite the justification to end a life. As for Robert S. he has demonstrated over and over again that he IS an acorn…very dense in the head. And they want us to believe that they are the “kind”, “caring souls”…LMAO

    • karolyn

      Thamera – I respect your beliefs. Why don’t you respect mine? Why do someone else’s beliefs bother you so much? I did not challenge anyone – just stated what I believe. Why are you always on the offense?

      • http://naver samurai

        If you don’t know this by now moron, this is a battle to get our country back to the ways of our Christian founding fathers, a battle against evil, and the protecting of the most innocent of human beings. This means you can’t just sit back and play defense all the time, offense (attack) is required. Our side (Patriots, Christians, etc.) have been winning some ground here and there, but we will win no matter what. If there is nothing wrong with death, then why would the Jews of Nazi Germany fighting so hard to stay alive? Why are the Christians that live in Arab countries be fighting for their survival and livelyhood? Think about these questions, OK? FOR GOD AND COUNTRY!

        • Kinetic1

          samurai,
          As I said, a note for those who want to preach to us about our “Christian founding fathers”:

          “There were few laws on abortion in the United States at the time of independence, except the English common law adopted into United States law by Acts of Reception, which held abortion to be legally acceptable if occurring before quickening. James Wilson, a framer of the U.S. Constitution, explained as follows:
          “ With consistency, beautiful and undeviating, human life, from its commencement to its close, is protected by the common law. In the contemplation of law, life begins when the infant is first able to stir in the womb. By the law, life is protected not only from immediate destruction, but from every degree of actual violence, and, in some cases, from every degree of danger.”

          Not from conception, but from “when the infant is first able to stir in the womb.”

          • http://naver samurai

            Sorry moron, but if a fetus has a heartbeat (after 3-5 weeks time) it is alive. Where did you dig this crap up? None of our founders would believe in abortion. Care to cite a source that backs up what it is you posted? FOR GOD AND COUNTRY!

          • Kinetic1

            samurai,
            Are you unable to respond to someone with a different viewpoint without name calling? It shows questionable logic to call someone a moron and then fail to show the ability to research a simple quote. the name you are looking for is James Wilson. Despite your argument that what I “dug up” is “crap”, these WERE the words of a founder. Here is he information you requested.

            ” James Wilson (1742 – 1798) was one of the Founding Fathers of the United States and a signer of the United States Declaration of Independence. Wilson was elected twice to the Continental Congress, and was a major force in drafting the United States Constitution. A leading legal theoretician, he was one of the six original justices appointed by George Washington to the Supreme Court of the United States.”

          • April

            K1, This Christian Founding Father, Justice James Wilson, who you want to utilize in your arguement?? Let’s expound and quote him further!!
            “It should always be remembered that this law…made for men or for nations, flows from the same Divine source. It is the law of GOD…What we do, indeed, must be founded on what HE has done; and the deficiencies of our laws must be supplied by the perfections of HIS. Human law must rest its authority, ultimately, upon the authority of that law which is Divine….Far from being rivals or enemies,religion and law are twin sisters, friends, and mutual assistance…” Now with that quote, the Bible is already on the scene which cannot be ignored-(remember you opened this door so here it is) In Luke when Gabriel appeared to Mary and told her the plan of GOD, she agreed, “…be it unto me as you have said”; and immediately she went that same day with haste to her cousin Elizabeth who was with child, namely John the Baptist, and before they customly greeted John leaped in her womb filled with the Holy Spirit, and recognized that Mary was carrying the LORD within her womb. This, YES MY RELIGIOUS BELIEF(LIKE IT OR LUMP IT!!)is why I believe that life begins at conception. There is NO scientific contradiction no matter how hard they try. Infact the first stirring of an infant(being aware that it is not scietifically called an infant at this stage for you nit picks)in the womb is that initial attachement of the sperm to the egg as it seeks the uterine wall. Beautiful Life!

          • http://naver samurai

            Thank you April. They didn’t believe in abortion during our founding father’s time, no matter how he tries to spin it. FOR GOD AND COUNTRY!

          • Kinetic1

            April and Time,
            I didn’t say that the founding fathers were in favor of abortion. Truth is, very few people are “in favor” of abortion. Most rational people would much prefer sex education, abstinence and contraception be the answer to unwanted pregnancy. The point I was making is that even at the beginning of our nation (and well before) this topic was not conclusive. The wording of the law I noted leaves the door open to interpretation as to how advanced a pregnancy can be before it is illegal to abort. April feels that “the first stirring of an infant ….. in the womb is that initial attachement(sic) of the sperm to the egg..” Others may say it meant the first heart beat while still others might suggest physical movement, like kicking. Given that the stethoscope wasn’t invented until 1810 and that even then the heartbeat of a fetus not heard until around 5 months, it’s hard to say what the standard really was.

  • Famijoly

    This is a good law, a good next step. In this mobile society, 100 miles or more isn’t much to drive on a one-time basis. It would have been a stronger law if the 24-hour waiting period had been consistent, no matter the distance of the mother from her residence to the abortuary. Also, babies conceived as a result of rape and incest are no less human and no less innocent than any other baby.

    Now in Texas, a pregnant mother who seeks to terminate the child in her womb must receive an ultrasound and a description to ensure she is more fully informed about the choice she is making. The law does not prevent her from paying paying an assassin with a medical licence to complete the hit. Nor does the law prevent those with the license to practice medicine to make their money as the paid assassins of unborn babies.

  • JimH

    Maybe to protect “female rights” we need to do a sonogram to make sure we are only killing the unborn boys.
    Of the 50 million aborted baby’s in this country since roe v. wade, I would bet 25 million were female. (oops)

  • Jay

    Wiccan Religious Cooperative of Florida

    The city of Melbourne is just one example of the growing national
    connection between the abortion industry and the religion of
    witchcraft. An employee of Aware Woman, Veronica Jordan, and a former
    employee, Rebecca Morris, are two of the six founding directors of a
    registered non-profit religious corporation known as the Wiccan
    Religious Cooperative of Florida (WRCF). The WRCF lists a post office
    box in Orlando as its principal address, and is attempting to network
    witches’ covens throughout central Florida. One group working closely
    with WRCF is the Church of the Iron Oak. They meet weekly for “Wiccan
    Ways,” a teaching seminar at 1220 East Prospect Street, Melbourne, and
    for rituals in a backyard of a dead end street at 2027 Mattison Drive
    NE, Palm Bay.

    Air, Fire, Water & Earth, a New Age book shop at 795 S. Wickham Road,
    West Melbourne, functions as another meeting place for local Wiccans.
    Activities of the WRCF have taken place at the Unitarian Universalist
    Fellowship of Melbourne. Practicing witches in Melbourne are also
    members of Project Response (a homosexual/AIDS activist group) and
    South Brevard National Organization for Women (NOW). They are
    politically active, own profitable businesses, and universally support
    abortion on demand in America.

    A newsletter published eight times a year, Open Circle, informs area
    “Wiccans and Pagans” about upcoming events and describes the
    activities of Church of the Iron Oak. Veronica Jordan’s post office
    box (P.O. Box 060192, Palm Bay, FL 32906) is the mailing address for
    Open Circle. The editors take pseudonyms – “Lord Shelandera,” “Dahud,”
    and “Lady Rowana” – the supposed names of pagan gods and goddesses.

    The January 1993 issue of Open Circle described WRCF’s founding: “A
    year ago the dream of an umbrella group under which many covens would
    function and be committed to peace and harmony ‘For The Good Of All,’
    was just that, a dream. But now it is a reality and a very, very big
    part of the lives of many people. Five board members with a sixth as a
    mediator made a commitment to five years of donating time to a Wiccan
    umbrella group … Teaching, which was started by three people in
    Orlando in the summer of 1991 is really the first ‘order of business’
    of WRCF … The first class in Brevard County shares teaching
    responsibility among six Elders and also had nearly 40 students
    registered this past October.”

    Continued: http://www.mombu.com/religion/baptist/t-witches-and-abortionchild-sacrifice-sacrifice-abortion-devil-energy-hell-2824682.html

  • Jay

    Margaret Sanger

    Margaret Sanger, founder of Planned Parenthood, is perhaps the best 20th century example of the destructive power of spiritual deception found in occult religion. That she was wallowing in deception can be seen in a quote from a book written by an admirer: “She had tried to dispel depression by sex, travel, Rosicrucianism (a cult), numerology, now she tried a new panacea astrology.”

    Sanger was a confirmed adulteress who consistently and publicly supported a “woman’s right to destroy.” She became deeply involved with Havelock Ellis, a modern day false prophet who advocated a variety of bizarre sex practices supposing them to be the keys to spiritual enlightenment and power. For Margaret Sanger and her militantly (even religiously) promiscuous lifestyle, abortion became a necessary backup for contraceptive failure.

    The legacy of Planned Parenthood becomes even more ominous when we note the admiration Sanger had for Adolf Hitler and the eugenics policies of Nazi Germany. She became convinced that the “inferior races” were in fact “human weeds” and a “menace to civilization.” She yearned for the end of the day of what she termed the Christian reign of benevolence towards the unfit.

    Sanger’s eugenicist ideology can be clearly seen in the articles published in the Birth Control Review. In 1920, she published her lover Havelock Ellis’ favorable review of The Rising Tide of Color Against White World Supremacy by Dr. Lothrop Stoddard. Ellis wrote:

    “The diminishing value of our racial stocks is reflected in the folly of our statesmen, heedless that the crisis we approach is of their own creation reckless that if they make possible another white civil war our whole civilization will collapse by the sheer weight of its imbecility.”

    At first, Sanger’s efforts were not directed so overtly racist, but focused on the mentally retarded and those with hereditary diseases. She sought to encourage only the “fit” to have large families. The “fit” as it turned out were the upper class, highly intelligent whites.

    Sanger’s “Positive Plan of Eugenics” or “Plan for Peace” was to encourage who she saw as “the mentally, morally, and physically fit to marry and reproduce, tot he end of racial improvement if not perfection.”

    “The best stocks must be encouraged to marry and reproduce; for, as far as the future welfare of society is concerned, nothing can equal the importance of Eugenic marriages” (Birth Control Review, December 1924).

    Sanger advocated, among other measures, “A License for Mother’s to Have Babies” and “Permits to Become Parents.”

    By 1939, however, Sanger began what she termed the “Negro Demonstration Project” which was a plan to win the trust and support of blacks in several key southern states in a campaign to introduce birth control into the Black population.

    Part of Sanger’s strategy was to enlist Black doctors and ministers who would enthusiastically support her Eugenics policies, and act as liaisons between the Planned Parenthood Federation and the Black communities. At one point in her letters, she worries that more sinister intentions might be discerned in her “Demonstration Project.”

    “We do not want word to go out that we want to exterminate the Negro population and the minister is the man who can straighten out that idea if it ever occurs to any of the more rebellious members.”

    The “Negro Project” was successful. Soon Planned Parenthood’s birth control clinics were distributing contraceptives to Blacks. Since has been legalized in America, the long-range results of Sanger’s “Demonstration Project” have become even more debilitating to Black Americans.

    According to a Health and Human Services Administration report:

    * Forty-three percent of all abortions are performed on Blacks.

    * The sterilization rate among Blacks is 45 percent higher than among whites

    * In most Black communities, abortions outnumber live births three to one.

    The overall effect has been the actual decrease of the Black population in the United States from 12 percent in 1973 to 8 percent by the 1990s.

    Recently, thousands of documents have been made available to the public through collections of Margaret Sanger’s never before published writings.

    One of the most shocking pieces is this correspondence between one of Sanger’s board members, Dr. Charles F. Dight, and her fellow eugenist, Adolf Hitler:

    August 1, 1933

    Chancellor Adolf Hitler
    Berlin, Germany

    Honorable Chancellor,

    I enclose a clipping from the Minneapolis Journal of Minnesota, United States of America, relating to, and praising your plan to stamp out mental inferiority among the German people.

    I trust you will accept my sincere wish that your efforts along that line will be a great success and will advance the eugenics movement in other nations as well as in Germany.

    Sincerely.

    C.F. Dight
    President Minnesota Eugenics Society

    Planned Parenthood shared the agenda of Adolf Hitler. Need we say anything more?

    • Albino.

      But in contrast to these quotes, some of Hitler’s speeches definitely seem to put him in the Christian camp as a fighter against atheism. For example, he said, on signing the Nazi-Vatican Concordat, April 26, 1933: “Secular schools can never be tolerated because such schools have no religious instruction, and a general moral instruction without religious foundation is built on air; consequently all character training and religion must be derived from faith . . .”

      An Associated Press article from the Lansing State Journal, February 23, 1933, is headlined, “Hitler Aims Blow at ‘Godless’ Move,” and talks about how Hitler was campaigning against atheist communists and wanted support from Catholic Nazis. One line in the article specifically says, “Hitler, himself, is a Catholic.” (You can see the entire article at http://www.infidels.org/library/his torical/unknown/hitler.html .) In addition, in 1941, Hitler told General Gerhart Engel: “I am now as before a Catholic and will always remain so.” He never left the church. He was baptized a Roman Catholic as an infant and was a communicant and altar boy in his youth.

      In a speech at Koblenz, August 26, 1934, Hitler said: “National Socialism neither opposes the Church nor is it anti-religious, but on the contrary it stands on the ground of a real Christianity . . . For their interests cannot fail to coincide with ours alike in our fight against the symptoms of degeneracy in the world of today, in our fight against a Bolshevist culture, against atheistic movement, against criminality, and in our struggle for a consciousness of a community in our national life . . . These are not anti-Christian, these are Christian principles!”

      Related to the above, the “Religion” article in The Oxford Companion to World War II notes that early on in his career, Hitler sponsored something called “practical Christianity,” and that “German Christians emerged who claimed to be able to synthesize the best of National Socialism [Nazism] and the best of Christianity. Many Christians seemed to be able to reconcile themselves to at least certain aspects of anti-Semitic legislation. Those who could not . . . often ended up in concentration camps . . . Many anguished Christians serving in the Wehrmacht began to feel a little more comfortable about supporting a war that now included the overthrow of godless communism.”

      Getting back to quotes, on October 24, 1933, in a speech in Berlin, Hitler said: “We were convinced that the people need and require this faith. We have therefore undertaken the fight against the atheistic movement, and that not merely with a few theoretical declarations: we have stamped it out.”

      Hitler wrote in Mein Kampf: “I am convinced that I am acting as the agent of our Creator. By fighting off the Jews. I am doing the Lord’s work.” In 1938, he quoted those same words in a Reichstag speech.

      In a speech delivered April 12, 1922, published in “My New Order,” and quoted in Freethought Today (April 1990), Hitler said:

      My feeling as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded only by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God’s truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter.

      In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was his fight against the Jewish poison.

      Today, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed his blood upon the Cross.

      As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice . . .

      And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly, it is the distress that daily grows. For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people. And when I look on my people I see them work and work and toil and labor, and at the end of the week they have only for their wages wretchedness and misery.

      When I go out in the morning and see these men standing in their queues and look into their pinched faces, then I believe I would be no Christian, but a very devil, if I felt no pity for them, if I did not, as did our Lord two thousand years ago, turn against those by whom today this poor people are plundered and exploited.”"

      I could probably find more speeches in which Hitler claims himself to be a Christian, but I think the point has been made.

      He said it!

      Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic (Arthur C Clarke).

      • Jay

        obama also claims to be a Christian, and, as we can all agree, is following in Hitler’s footsteps! What’s your point?

      • Jay

        Albino, my apologies! Your point? well made!!!

      • http://naver samurai

        Hitler, like any other politician, was playing up to the masses for votes. He was NO Christian. FOR GOD AND COUNTRY!

  • Jay

    “You practice your religion and let me practice mine.”

    “My religion is a holy ritual child sacrifice.”

    Patricia Baird-Windle,
    Founder and owner of Aware Woman Center for Choice

    * On August 4, 1992, two employees of Aware Woman abortion clinic, Veronica Jordan and Rebecca Morris, registered a non-profit religious corporation known as the Wiccan Religious Cooperative of Florida (WRCF). The stated purpose of the WRCF is to provide an umbrella organization for witch covens throughout the state of Florida. The incorporation papers list two abortion clinic employees as directors of the Wiccan organization.

    * Shortly after the Wiccan Religious Cooperative of Florida was founded, Carol Ebbing, another Aware Woman abortion clinic employee ordered this book entitled: The Sacrament of Abortion.

    * The book, authored by a Ginnette Paris, a witch in France, presents abortion as “a sacred act.” Paris calls abortion: “a sacrifice to Artemis, who refuses to give life if the gift is not pure” (that is innocent or preborn life).

    * The January 1993 issue of the Wiccan Open Circle newsletter described the founding of the Wiccan Religious Cooperative of Florida: “A year ago the dream of an umbrella group under which many covens would function and be committed to peace and harmony ‘For The Good Of All,’ was just that, a dream. But now it is a reality and a very, very big part of the lives of many people.”

    * This issue of Open Circle, published at the time the pro-life organization, Operation Rescue National, held an event in Melbourne, Florida, alerted Central Florida area Wiccans and Pagans, “… steps are being taken to protect not only Aware Woman, but a woman’s right to choose. Work is being done mundanely, financially, and magically, to help get through the next few months and beyond.”

    * Readers of Open Circle were encouraged to become “clinic escorts” and were told how they could help fund the South Brevard National Organization of Woman’s program to “help low income women have abortions.”

    * Wiccans were also encouraged to work their magic on the area surrounding the Aware Woman abortion clinic: “… many individuals and groups have been helping to magically protect the building and property … This has been done by magical and psychic shielding being put on and around the property….”

    MASSACRE OF INNOCENCE:
    THE OCCULT ROOTS OF ABORTION

    In focusing on the subject of abortion, much has been contended from a medical and social perspective. But when we pull the lid off and look at abortion from a biblical and spiritual perspective, the implications are far more profound and staggering.

    As we view the ties between occult religion and the abortion industry, the conclusion will become obvious. The promotion of abortion is not just a political and social issue; it is part of a religious and spiritual agenda the religion of witchcraft and child sacrifice.

    • Jay

      To continue reading the article above http: //www.theforbiddenknowledge.com/hardtruth/massacre_of_innocence.htm

    • Kinetic1

      Wicca is a religion based in nature. Their main rule of behavior is the Wiccan Rede which forbids them from harming people, including themselves, except in some cases of self-defense. The promotion of groups to protect and defend women at abortion clinics is not a matter of “child sacrifice” but a desire to help women who are being persecuted by Christian groups. This article was obviously written by a Christian writer hoping to feed off the age old fear of witches. I guess it works on some of you.

      • Jay

        Kinetic1, you lie!!!

        • http://?? Joe H.

          Jay,
          don’t be shocked, but kenetic lies about 98% of the time!!! Once in a very great while, he slipps or makes a mistake and tells the truth!!

          • Jay

            Joe, I’m somewhat surprised at kinetic’s passionate defence for abortion/murder!

          • Kinetic1

            Joe,
            Clearly Bob does not take his rules about slander too seriously, so I’ll have to ask you to back up your claim. It’s rare that I write anything without first researching to insure that I have my facts right, a practice that I might recommend to more people on this site. I may occasionally fail in my efforts as I am only human, but I do not intentionally lie and I take offense in your assertion.

      • http://naver samurai

        Is this Halloween and we are telling scary stories about witches? There are no such things as real witches and warlocks, just pretenders. Can I have you wait while I get some popcorn so I can watch the end of this movie made up of lies? Wicca is a false faith and they have earned their reward (Hades). How did we get to talk about wicca when abortion is the subjet moron? Libs are always changing the subject when they are in retreat. FOR GOD AND COUNTRY!

        • Albino.

          Prove to me Wicca is false and I’ll use the same reasoning to disprove Christianity.

          Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic (Arthur C Clarke).

        • Kinetic1

          samurai,
          Please note that it was Jay who brought up Wiccans and the “THE OCCULT ROOTS OF ABORTION”. I was just responding to his ridiculous accusations. So, if I am a “moron” and an example of “Libs … always changing the subject when they are in retreat”, what does that make you, given your inability to read and understand the root source of the subject?

        • Robert Smith

          samurai says: “There are no such things as real witches and warlocks, just pretenders.”

          So much for the justification of the Inquisition, the Maleious Malificarum, and all the horror from the christians over the years.

          Thanks for clearing up that lie, samurai.

          Rob

        • http://naver samurai

          You need to quit using the same line albino, its getting boring. Second, any faith that worships other than the Judeo-Christian God are false. Just need to read your Bible more then you have been. Second, leave it to rob the moron to bring up something that was done hundreds of years ago to use in another one of his lies. You morons really take the cake, you know that? FOR GOD AND COUNTRY!

  • http://www.reformdc.com nax777

    Sorry to keep harping on this but many continue to miss a few points, Recap;
    The US reached a zero population growth in the mid 80’s our leaders increased their yearly appetite for immigration. The legal yearly immigration rate went from 100,000 to 1,000,000. From the years 2000 to 2010 our leader’s yearly appetite for legal immigration grew to 3,000,000. At present levels the US population will swell another 130 million to 442 million by 2040! This is a very conservative estimate. US immigration rate is the sole reason for overpopulation in the US today and tomorrow!

    It is irrational to think that any nation can save more than a hand full of people from overpopulated poorer nation. Especially when most refuse to change their life style and blame the Jones’s for their plight.
    It is irrational to call mom a Nazi A. hole for giving people a ride back home to keep her home from overpopulation. It is irrational to think that any single payer social program will work best. It is irrational to think that nations can tax its way out of poverty. It is irrational to believe that a power convinced that you have nowhere else to go will do your biding.

    No one is going to stand in their way the template to convince people that a rational person is a very sick or stupid SOB must be removed first. And only you can remove yours. The misuse of Negative Theory must be taught to future generations.

    People will not take in grandma, or their disabled neighbor long enough to break the social network of chains that separate us. It does not have to come to that, yet! The working class can be forced to plan for their life without a single payer plan. We must meet with our follow citizens, listen and share ideas.

    A true Conservative and a true Liberal agree on one thing though for different reasons. Any single payer social program is a nutty idea! Now each believes that it’s not so nutty as long as their side is managing it.

    We can destroy their power by replacing them with citizens that can be immediately removed by citizens should they grow a greedy bone and never serve for a life time. We must take control ourselves. Please join with us at Goooh.com you might be able to click on my name. This will take you to my link page that links to Goooh.com, NumbersUSA.com and SBA-list.org.

    P.S. Have you heard of “you cut” @ http://majorityleader.gov/YouCut/

    • Jay

      nax777, thanks for the link! I checked it out. The proposals, its a good start!

  • Jay

    Abortion: A Choice Against Women

    Fr. Frank Pavone
    National Director of Priests for Life

    Tuesday, November 04, 2008

    Abortion is often presented as an issue of “women’s rights”. It is seen as something desirable for women, and as a benefit to which they should have as much access as possible. In fact, to be “pro-life” is seen by some as being “against women’s rights”.

    If you sometimes feel this way, examine the facts presented here. You will see that, in fact, abortion harms women, ignores their rights, and exploits and degrades them. Anyone concerned about women will do well to know these facts.

    Surveys of women who have had abortions, (see, for example, David Reardon’s book, Aborted Women, Silent No More), show that abortion is not a question of giving a woman a “choice.” It is, tragically, a situation of women feeling they have NO CHOICE, feeling that nobody cares enough about them and their child to give them any alternative besides going to the abortionist. The woman feels rejected, confused, afraid, alone, unable to handle the pregnancy- – and behold, in the midst of all this, she is told by society, “We will eliminate your problem by eliminating your child. Go get an abortion. It’s a safe, easy, and legal solution.”

    The fact is that though abortion is legal, it is NOT safe and easy, nor respectful of the woman.
    Carol Everett used to run an abortion clinic. She is now pro-life, and she tells how women are not given the full truth about the abortion procedure. When they ask “Will it be painful?” they are told “No”, even though serious pain is involved. When they ask, “Is it a baby?” they are told “No”. Many women have found out only AFTER their abortion that their baby already had arms, legs, and sucked its thumb, before they aborted it. The clinic workers are told not to volunteer any other information if they are not asked.

    Why can’t we respect women enough to tell them the whole truth?

    Women are not told of the many harmful physical and psychological effects of abortion. It is NOT safe. There are, for example, fifteen psychological risk factors that need to be investigated before this procedure. They usually aren’t. Women who have abortions are twice as likely to have a miscarriage if they get pregnant again. One of the reasons for this is “cervical incompetence”. During an abortion the cervical muscle is hastily stretched open, and hence can be rendered too weak to stay closed for another pregnancy. Another complication is ectopic pregnancy, a life-threatening situation in which, due to scar tissue in the womb from the scraping of the abortion, a fertilized ovum is blocked from entering the uterus and so begins growing in the fallopian tube and eventually ruptures it. Since abortion was legalized, ectopic pregnancies have risen 300%. Many other physical complications can arise, as the chart below shows. It has also been proven that complications and deaths of women from abortions are UNDER-REPORTED, and recorded under different causes than abortion.

    Psychological effects are also very real. Women suffer from PAS (Post-Abortion Syndrome). They experience “impacted grief”; that is, grief which festers within then like pus because they and others deny that a real death has occurred. Because of this denial, mourning cannot properly occur, yet the pain of loss is still there. Many have flashbacks to the abortion experience, nightmares about the baby, and even pain on the anniversary of the due date. One woman testified that she still suffers from her abortion of 50 years ago! Nobody concerned about women can responsibly dismiss these facts.

    Effects of Abortion
    (Prepared by WEBA. Women Exploited by Abortion, as a warning to other women to avoid the risks of abortion surgery)
    Physical Effects Psychological Effects
    -Sterility -Guilt
    -Miscarriages -Suicidal impulses
    -Ectopic pregnancies -Mourning/Withdrawal
    -Stillbirths -Regret/Remorse
    -Bleeding and infections -Loss of confidence
    -Shock and comas -Low self-esteem
    -Perforated uterus -Preoccupation with death
    -Peritonitus -Hostility/Rage
    -Fever/Cold sweat -Despair/Helplessness
    -Intense pain -Desire to remember birth date
    -Loss of body organs -Intense interest in babies
    -Crying/Sighing -Thwarted maternal instincts
    -Insomnia -Hatred for persons connected with abortion
    -Loss of appetite -Desire to end relationship with partner
    -Exhaustion -Loss of sexual interest/Frigidity
    -Weight loss -Inability to forgive self
    -Nervousness -Nightmares
    -Decreased work capacity -Seizures and tremors
    -Vomiting -Feeling of being exploited
    -Gastro-intestinal disturbances -Horror of child abuse

    What kind of concern for women is shown when we put more stress on killing the child than helping the woman to bear her child? The abortion mentality looks on pregnancy as a disease. It does not take women seriously in their unique privilege and power of bearing new life! Some say that the pro-life movement is run by men trying to control women. But did you ever realize that the abortion industry is run primarily by men, who make a lot of money by performing this degrading operation on women? Abortion does not take sex seriously, either. Instead, it makes it easier for men to exploit women sexually. As Rosemary Bottcher, a Feminist for Life, has written, “Abortion reduces women to the status of sex machines which can be ‘repaired’ if necessary. Abortion helps ease his (the man’s) anxiety about sex and relieves him of the last vestige of responsibility. At last sex is really free!”

    Many women are coming to realize these facts, and have formed the National Women’s Coalition for Life (703-960-4519). Let’s stop fooling ourselves that abortion is a woman’s “right”. The pro-life movement offers women over 3,000 centers throughout the country where they can find compassion, assistance, and real alternatives and life-giving choices. The abortion movement offers them no choice except a wounded body, a scarred mind, and a dead baby. The choice is obvious.

    • April

      Great Info to know Jay! THANKYOU!!!

  • http://spiritdaily Patricia

    First,Yes, even an embryo is a human life. Every one of us who is alive today was an embryo. Second, it is criminal that doctors do not tell women that an abortion increases her risk of breast cancer. When a pregnancy takes place, milk glands begin to develop in the breasts. When an abortion takes place, these glands are abruptly left in limbo. Some of these glands do not shrink and cancers can begin to form in them. A miscarriage takes care of the shrinking of these glands naturally. Also, when a nursing mother stops nursing, these glands also shrink naturally. Abortion is an unnatural attack on the woman’s body. Not to mention a deadly attack on the “little person” (in Greek “fetus”)

    • http://naver samurai

      100% agree! Keep up the good fight, fellow patriot! FOR GOD AND COUNTRY!

  • http://none Tim Scott

    Oh, the GOP. The party of small government, less government intrusion, anti-social medicine, freedom, etc. Hypocrites all.

    • http://naver samurai

      The lib, gay loving, baby killing, marxist aren’t any better and you know it, moron! FOR GOD AND COUNTRY!

      • Robert Smith

        Eat any good saviors lately samurai?

        Rob

        • http://naver samurai

          No intelligence in this post. Ergo, not worthy of a response. FOR GOD AND COUNTRY!

        • libertytrain

          A Rob quote to a poster: “Ahhhhh, such word play to insult others and steal their rights.”

    • Jay

      Tim, why do you consider someone protecting defenceless human life a hypocrite?

      • Robert Smith

        Pro-life but no universal health care.

        People DIE from lack of health care.

        How can anyone make that not…

        Rob

        • http://naver samurai

          Many people die with proper healthcare also moron, so what’s your point moron? FOR GOD AND COUNTRY!

          • Jana

            Abortion is NOT healthcare, no more than a facelift is. It is elective surgery.

          • http://naver samurai

            I agree with you Jana. FOR GOD AND COUNTRY!

  • Jay

    No Truce on Abortion
    Agreeing to disagree is not an option when lives are at stake

    Fr. Frank Pavone
    National Director, Priests for Life
    The Washington Times – Washington, DC

    Thursday, October 14, 2010

    It is dismaying to hear some pro-life politicians calling for a “truce” on social issues like abortion – possible White House contenders Indiana Gov. Mitch Daniels and Mississippi Gov. Haley Barbour among them. Their suggestion is that it’s more important to do whatever is necessary to get elected than to worry about issues that appear to be intractable.

    This tactic is akin to the pro-life and pro-abortion movements agreeing to disagree, an option often considered a reasonable one. It does not require that either side change its views, but simply agrees to allow the different views, and the practices that flow from them.

    Sorry, but this is a proposal we in the pro-life movement can’t accept. There can be no truce.

    First of all, to ask us to “agree to disagree” about abortion is to ask us to change our position on it. Why do we disagree in the first place? When we oppose abortion, we disagree with the notion that it is even negotiable. We do not only claim that we cannot practice abortion, but that nobody can practice it, precisely because it violates the most fundamental human right, the right to life. To “agree to disagree” means that we no longer see abortion for what it is – a violation of a right so fundamental that disagreement cannot be allowed to tamper with it.

    To “agree to disagree” is to foster the notion that the baby is a baby only if the mother thinks it is, that the child has value only if the mother says it does and that we have responsibility only for those we choose to have responsibility for.

    Certainly, there are many disputes in our nation about which we can “agree to disagree.” Various proposals, programs and strategies can be debated as we try to figure out how best to secure people’s rights. But these legitimate areas of disagreement relate to how to secure people’s rights, whereas the abortion controversy is about whether to secure or even recognize those rights at all. We can agree to disagree whether certain government programs should be allowed, but not whether acts of violence should be allowed. “Agree to disagree” seems like a neutral posture to assume, but it neutralizes what can never be neutral; namely, the right to life.

    Furthermore, the abortion dispute is not merely about conceptual disagreement – it’s about justice. It’s about violence, bloodshed and victims who need to be defended. In the midst of a policy permitting thousands of babies a day to be killed, to “agree to disagree” means to cease to defend the absolute rights of these victims.

    We don’t fight oppression by “agreeing to disagree” with the oppressor. It is precisely when the oppressor disagrees that we have to intervene to stop the violence. The fact that the oppressor does not recognize the victim as a person does not remove our obligation to the victim. In the face of injustice, we are not simply called to disagree with it, but to stop it.

    Worse even than the notion of agreeing to disagree is the suggestion that abortion is irrelevant as an issue in the 2010 elections because it is “settled law.” No issue is less settled than abortion. More importantly, America’s courts and legislatures have a history of changing “settled law.”

    Dred Scott v. Sandford (1856) is the most commonly cited instance. The slaveholder’s right to property eclipsed and subsumed the slave’s right to freedom. But the Constitution eventually was amended to correct the error.

    Decisions like Lochner v. New York (1905) show us another error: Employers’ right to contract eclipsed and subsumed the workers’ rights to humane conditions and hours. These abuses were corrected by subsequent Supreme Court decisions like Muller v. Oregon and Bunting v. Oregon.

    The “separate but equal” doctrine of Plessy v. Ferguson (1896) sanctioning segregation was overturned by Brown v. Board of Education some 58 years later.

    Erroneous decisions like Hammer v. Dagenhart (1918) institutionalized child labor. But this was overturned 23 years later by United States v. Darby. A new development – a “pedagogical moment” – occurred here in constitutional law. The question was whether constitutional rights applied to children, too. The answer was yes.

    Many reversals of Supreme Court cases came about when new evidence made it clear that someone’s rights, not previously recognized, were being violated. Thus, Louis Brandeis brought forward the facts about how workers were being harmed.

    We are now witnessing the same trend regarding children in the womb. Evidence that has been around for quite some time demonstrating their humanity, and their inalienable right to life, is finding its way into legislatures and courts.

    With hundreds of embryological studies, and massive evidence of the harm abortion does to women, such evidence, combined with new legal concepts, can challenge Roe v. Wade in the same way its erroneous ancestral decisions were challenged.

    The day after Roe v. Wade was decided, the New York Times headline read, “Supreme Court settles abortion.” It has remained the most unsettled issue on our national landscape.

    Source of article: http://www.priestsforlife.org/articles/3338-no-truce-on-abortion

    • Jay

      Wicca is a common and much older name for witchcraft. The term witchcraft has been defined in different ways. In the past it has most often referred to the human harnessing of supernatural powers for the malevolent purpose of practicing black magic. For this reason, witchcraft, sorcery, and magic are nearly synonymous. Witchcraft is not, however, synonymous with Satanism. Not all witches worship Satan, and in fact most do not believe in Satan at all. Nor do they believe in hell, evil, or original sin. These groups believe that Satan is an imaginary creation of the Christian Church. If they believe in Satan at all they will tell you that the devil is just another Christian diety. They also do not believe in demons, and their deities are considered to be “imminent”, or within each of us, meaning that everyone is actually deity.

      A few groups do, however, worship Satan. During the Middle Ages, witchcraft experienced a great revival. The supernatural became very popular and superstition abounded. If someone wanted to become a witch, there was an initiation process. Some of the techniques were simple and some were complicated, but there were usually two requirements. The first was that the would-be witch must join of his or her own free will. The second requirement was that the prospective witch must be willing to worship the devil. Modern day witches, however, are not typically Satan worshipers.

      Much like the New Age Movement, most Wiccans do not accept the belief that there is good or evil. They argue that there are only forces that must be balanced. Evil is just a necessary part of good and the negative can be transmuted into the positive (a basic belief of medieval alchemy). While political views are not universal among witches, most support neo-tolerance. There is no absolute truth. What’s true for you may not be true for me, so everything is true, just pick one. They also are strong supporters of women’s rights and matriarchy, sexual “freedom” (including homosexuality, polyamory, non-monogamy, sexual activity by teens), abortion, and the abolition of Christianity from public life, especially in schools and governmental functions. In recent years there have been lawsuits filed by Pagans against such things as “In God We Trust”, student-led prayer in schools, the Ten Commandments, and Christian symbols, such as the Cross, in city and county seals. However, many are also active in getting the schools to teach the Wiccan holidays (Halloween, Winter Solstice, etc.), pagan elements of “Earth Day”, and Pagan symbolism. An ally in the fight to introduce pagan earth worship into the schools is found in the United Nations as they are working to promote the Earth Charter in education, a document that contains much pagan tradition and doctrine.

      Continued: http://contenderministries.org/wicca/history.php

      • Robert Smith

        ” If they believe in Satan at all they will tell you that the devil is just another Christian diety. ”

        Wicca rules through love, respect, and knowledge.

        Christians go for fear, brutality, and their own bad guy to call others on, satan.

        I think it’s so sad to live a life in fear as most christians do.

        Rob

        • http://naver samurai

          Too bad their love, respect, and knowledge are all lies and just “fronting” so people don’t get to know what they are really about. How would you know moron? Are you a wizzard? FOR GOD AND COUNTRY!

    • Robert Smith

      From Jay: “With hundreds of embryological studies, and massive evidence of the harm abortion does to women,”

      It’s way less harm than carrying to term. Common sense shows that.

      Rob

      • http://naver samurai

        Carrying them to term doesn’t damage the cervix, but abortion does. Get your facts straight before you post. FOR GOD AND COUNTRY!

      • April

        Ohh Myy Gooodness Robert Smith!!You constantly amaze me how clueless you are about nature, facts, and the real world in general, let alone common sense as you prove to posess none. Can you be taken seriously about anything?? Most things you say are so off course, that your words automatically become a joke!! What a pity!!

        • Jay

          April and Samurai, robert is only trying to provoke you with his provocative statements! He knows they are not true, however, he knows that his idiotic statements will provoke an emotional response from you, there -by drawing you into a mud slinging exchange! Don’t give him the satisfaction. This is classic liberal debating tactic, and is the only tactic these dimwits have in their arsenal!!! Truly perverted bunch!

          • http://naver samurai

            Message received and understood. Keep up the good fight, fellow patriot! FOR GOD AND COUNTRY!

  • Mary

    let the blood of the unborn and preborn babies be on ALL of our hands…we are ALL responsible for the culture of death our country and our world has become….these innocent lives taken in abortion for ANY reason…..or excuse….are baptized in blood…and will be in Heaven with their creator…yes as soon as they are conceived in the womb they are human beings in the making with souls..that will return to God…..woe, tripple woe to them who kill them before they have a chance to see the light of day…..woe on our world…triple woe…..

    • April

      WOE Mary!! Great Point!!

      • http://naver samurai

        I second that! Good job, fellow patriot! FOR GOD AND COUNTRY!

  • Angelica

    OF COURSE is a human being, not a rock, not a mineral, not a fruit… just a little and very young baby; thank God all of our mothers decided not to abort us!

  • Jay

    Live birth abortion?

    Senator Obama voted three times against a Bill which would have outlawed the evil of ‘live birth abortion’.

    It is a termination process which involves the birth of a live baby, the issuing of a birth certificate, the purposeful abandoning of the baby to a slow and tortuous death, and the callous issuing of a death certificate.

    Is this not infanticide?

    By law, if an aborted baby is born alive, both birth and death certificates must be issued. Ironically, the cause of death often listed for live aborted babies is ‘extreme prematurity’, which amount to a confession by doctors that they have caused this death. It is not uncommon for a live aborted baby to linger for an hour or two or even longer. One baby is reported to have lived for almost an entire eight-hour shift. Many of these babies are born completely healthy, for they are terminated at 40 weeks for the ‘health’ of the mother, and also in cases of rape or incest. Ever since Doe v Bolton (the companion case to Roe v Wade) the United States Supreme Court has adopted the definition of the World Health Organisation for ‘health’, defined as ‘any condition that might impact her physical, emotional, psychological or financial well being’.

    So live birth abortion is permitted in many US states up to nine months for emotional (can’t cope), psychological (don’t want to cope) or financial (can’t afford it) reasons, effectively extending abortion to on demand.

    When the aborted baby is born alive, he or she (for the baby can no longer be an ‘it’) receives what is known as ‘comfort care’, during which the baby is kept warm in a blanket until he/she dies. Parents (for that is what they are) may hold the baby if they wish. If they do not want to hold their dying aborted baby, a staff member cares for the baby (if they have time) until he/she dies. If staff do not have time, the baby is simply abandoned to die a slow, lingering death.

    Perversely, the evil of child-killing is given spiritual trappings, with the option of baptism for the child who is killed. Hospitals provide baptismal certificates and gowns, and even a first-photo machine to record the birth.

    All of which is cynically designed to make the parents (and medical staff?) feel better about the murder.

    Source of article:http://archbishop-cranmer.blogspot.com/2008/10/barack-obama-and-live-birth-abortion.html

    • April

      This is Heart Wrenching!! Soo Unexcusable!!!

  • Jay

    Yes April, it is both, Heart wrenching and inexcusable! My purpose for posting the article was to shock anyone reading it. Why? Because, abortion is always mentioned and presented via politically correct terminology: abortion, medical procedure, health care, maternal health care and the mother’s rights not violated! Interestingly, the various procedures involved and applied during the manually assisted abortion, are never mentioned or described! Why? Would the industry suffer financial loss as a result? Forget the sonograms, rather, describe the procedure to the pregnant mother in all of its gory detail, and further, offer a visual aid through captured video of all the available gruesome methods! In this age of information, media and glorified education, why are we withholding critical information with respect to this issue? Show and expose all of the hideous and barbaric procedure(s)! We in the west call ourselves civilized, progressive, educated, democratic, and yet, insist on invading other countries under the guise of championing human rights while committing unspeakable atrocities and violating human rights in our own back yard!!! But anyone possessed of any semblance of critical-thinking must ask themselves, is all this hoopla about protecting the women’s rights, or is it about financial gain and population control?

    Again, the words and confession of Ex-abortionist Dr Bernard Nathanson:

    In 1973, I became director of obstetrics of a large hospital in New
    York City and had to set up a prenatal research unit, just at the start of a great new
    technology which we now use every day to study the foetus in the womb. A favourite pro-
    abortion tactic is to insist that the definition of when life begins is impossible; that
    the question is a theological or moral or philosophical one, anything but a scientific
    one. Foetology makes it undeniably evident that life begins at conception and requires
    all the protection and safeguards that any of us enjoy. Why, you may well ask, do some
    American doctors who are privy to the findings of foetology, discredit themselves by
    carrying out abortions? Simple arithmetic at $300 a time, 1.55 million abortions means an
    industry generating $500,000,000 annually, of which most goes into the pocket of the
    physician doing the abortion.

    Additionally, research UN policies on population control and you will discover that support and enforcement for abortion comes from many well funded sources, including the so-called beloved United Nations!!! Both, Soros and chip head Bill Gates, donated a sickening amount for EUGENICS department!!!

    What is eugenics and its purpose? Promoting a cleaner and healthier world by improving the human gene pool. Voluntary humanitary eugenics can provide our children a legacy of greater intelligence …http://www.eugenics.net/ Warning, very disturbing!!!

  • Jay

    A GLOSSARY OF TERMS
    ESSENTIAL TO UNDERSTANDING THE ABORTION CONTROVERSY

    By: Al Lemmo 1997
    Version 1.4, Dearborn, Michigan, December, 1996
    This glossary has been compiled to aid all pro-life Americans in their struggle against the alien and destructive philosophy that has gripped our land in the guise of enhancing freedom. It includes a variety of new terms and some humor but its purpose is extremely serious. It is an effort to equip the pro-life side with new understanding and tools to change the terms of the debate.

    Particular attention should be directed toward the concept of Abortionism and such terms as sadistician, necrochoicer, necropimping, medi-whore, depravigentsia, Birthist, Sentiencist, babyectomy, gravida, Intrinsicism and Extrinsicism, abortionthink, Abortionite Klansmen, Pontius Pilate Posture, medicide, Abortionspeak, necronym, Slaveraid, irreversibility and intra-uterine viability.

    Efforts have been made to demonstrate the links between prenatal child-killing and other historic violations of human rights as well as with such political and ethical subjects as Just War Theory, Orwellian totalitarianism and political correctness. It is hoped that widespread use of the terminology set forth herein will help expose the true nature of the underlying philosophy of prenatal child-killing, put the hard-core necrochoicers on the defensive, and demoralize or even win over their soft-core allies.

    The emphasis is on the foundation philosophy of human rights (called “Intrinsicism”) which this author believes has universal appeal and will therefore be far more effective than any approach based on religion or the sanctity of life. A companion article on Abortionism is available and recommended for a more detailed discussion.

    This page contains sections A thru D.

    SECTION: A

    ABC: Abortionite Broadcasting Company. A communications network peopled by Abortionites who censor and slant news and information to promote the Birthist Abortionite agenda.

    ABLE-IST: An individual who believes in aborting the rights of others, sometimes to the point of justifying their destruction, on the basis of their abilities or handicaps. A member of the Utilitarianist sect of Abortionism. See also UTILITARIANIST and FUNCTIONALIST.

    ABORTION: A euphemism used to describe the poisoning or live dismemberment of prenatal children without benefit of anesthesia. Frequently used in this glossary to include any abrogation of human rights under the philosophy of Abortionism. In this context it is a sacrament of the cult of Abortionism.

    ABORTION CLINIC (or KLINIK): A temple of the Birthist sect of the Abortionite cult wherein their sacrament of prenatal human sacrifice is practiced.

    ABORTIONISM: The world’s oldest and most destructive idolatrous cult whose central dogma holds that human rights are conditionally granted or denied to powerless people by powerful people based on whatever criteria the powerful choose to recognize. Those who do not meet the Abortionite criteria for inclusion may have their rights summarily aborted through Abortionite sacraments (crimes) at any time. The criteria, which define the various sects of the cult(Racist, Sexist, Birthist, Creedist, Classist, Utilitarianist, etc.), may include ethnicity, sex, birth, religion, social or economic class, and abilities. The term “Abortionism” also refers to the underlying philosophy of the cult.

    ABORTIONIST: An unethical physician who has chosen to abandon the ethical norms of the medical profession and prostitute his or her medical skills to destroy prenatal human life.

    ABORTIONITE: Of or pertaining to the cult of Abortionism. Also, a member of any sect of the cult of Abortionism.

    ABORTIONITE BLIND SPOT: The defect in the conscience of Abortionites resulting from the practice of abortionthink such that the target population of the particular Abortionite sect has ceased to exist in the Abortionite’s mind as human persons. It is for this reason that Abortionites just don’t get it when it comes to understanding oppostion to their sacraments (crimes).

    ABORTIONITE CLIFF: A metaphorical ethical precipice over which a society will plummet when it abandons the high moral plateau in which all human life is protected unconditionally. Often more generously described as a slippery slope. American society has been in free fall over this precipice since Roe v. Wade.

    ABORTIONITE KLANSMEN: Abortionites, especially those of the Birthist sect, who will continue to practice their sacraments even after they have been outlawed, because they have been taught by experience that they have a right to do so. The Ku Klux Klan is the best known example, although they are members of the Racist sect. Similarly, Birthist Abortionites have made plans to continue their sacrament of prenatal child-killing underground should the protection of law be restored to prenatal children.

    ABORTIONITE SACRAMENT:

    ABORTIONITE SECT: One of the subdivisions of the cult of Abortionism which can be identified by the criteria by which it targets human populations for exclusion from the human community and ultimately for abortion of their fundamental human rights. The major Abortionite sects include Racist, Sexist, Birthist, Classist, Creedist and Utilitarianist. There is much overlap among them, the most highly developed Abortionites being convinced that exclusion should apply to anyone not like themselves.

    ABORTIONITE SYNDROME: The full range of characteristics common to practicing Abortionites including mastery of abortionthink, fluency in Abortionspeak and possession of a fully developed Abortionite blind spot. Individuals who possess these skills are capable of looking at piles of bodies, whether prenatal children or death camp victims stacked in ovens, and not see human beings.

    ABORTIONITE SYNOD: An hypothetical conference of representatives of all Abortionite sects which could never actually be held due to their proclivity for aborting each other.

    ABORTIONITE TEMPLE: A facility in which Abortionite sacraments and other forms of Abortionite worship and religious formation are practiced. A number of temples were operated secretly in Europe by the Racist sect in the 1930′s and 1940′s but the Birthist sect openly operates many temples in many countries today. See also ABORTUARY.

    ABORTIONMONGER: An Abortionite, especially one of the Birthist sect, for whom the lives of prenatal children or other target populations have no significance at all. One who enthusiastically promotes abortion as a positive solution for a multitude of problems.

    ABORTION RIGHTS: An oxymoron used by Birthist Abortionites, abortionmongers, necrochoicers and the like to describe and defend a state of anarchy with respect to protecting the lives of prenatal children and abuses of freedom that destroy human lives both prenatally and postnatally. See also CHILD-KILLING PRIVILEGES.

    ABORTION RITES: Actions surrounding the sacrifice of prenatal children or other target populations to Abortionite idols, to include any pre-mortem examinations, usually conducted in an Abortionite temple by the Birthist sect. Suggested usage in preference to the oxymoron “abortion rights”.

    ABORTIONSPEAK: A dialect of Orwell’s Newspeak used by Abortionites to deny the realities of their sacraments (murder, slavery, etc.) and thereby enable doublethink. Used extensively in present day America by the Birthist sect to confuse the unconverted population and thereby confound effective action against their sacrament of child-killing. Very effective for necropimping.

    ABORTIONTHINK: Doublethink with respect to the value of life, holding in the case of the Birthist sect of Abortionism that prenatal life is both inviolable under the ethic of sanctity of life and also disposable at any time for any reason. Also, the rationalizing process of devaluing the life of another sufficiently to justify destroying that life with little or no remorse based on any of the Abortionite criteria which define the various sects.

    ABORTOMANIA: A form of insanity characterized by great excitement and enthusiasm for abortion. Common among abortionmongers and other Abortionites, especially those of the Birthist sect, after the process of abortionthink has run its full course.

    ABORTOPHILIA: Love of abortion. A warm, even passionate emotional attachment to abortion, especially as practiced by the Birthist sect, when it is seen as a wonderful, life-enhancing and essential option in life. Characteristic of abortionmongers and other Birthist Abortionites.

    ABORTUARY: A facility in which prenatal human sacrifice is practiced. A temple of the Birthist sect of Abortionism wherein this sacrament takes place. See also ABORTIONITE TEMPLE.

    ACLU: The foremost missionary organization of Abortionism and related cults such as Evangelical Paganism. Variously known as Atheists, Communists and Liars Unscrupulous; Anti-Christian Litigation Union and Abortionite Confraternity of Litigious Ultra-Leftists. An organization devoted to destroying the moral foundations of American society by eradicating the influence of religion from public life.

    AMNIOCENTESIS: A medical procedure used to diagnose problems in prenatal children by analyzing material sampled from the amniotic fluid. Advocated as part of a search and destroy policy by eugenicists and other necrochoicers.

    ANIMALIST: An individual who believes that many if not all animal species have an equal claim to the recognition and protection of human society. Curiously, Animalists are frequently Birthist Abortionites who recognize few or no such claims for prenatal human children. This is due to their primary Abortionite affiliation with the Sentiencist sect. See also SENTIENCIST.

    ANTI-ABORTION: A negative label adopted by the necromedia to refer to pro-lifers, sometimes even applied in coverage of euthanasia to promote the desired negative image of pro-lifers as busybodies and meddlers in private matters. Contrast with the necromedia’s use of necrochoicers’ preferred euphemisms for themselves.

    ANTI-CHOICE: The preferred descriptor of Birthist Abortionites, abortionmongers, necrochoicers and the like for pro-lifers and others who oppose the administering of Abortionite sacraments. Its foolishness makes perfect sense to persons with fully developed Abortionite blind spots who are incapable of understanding that the only thing that makes any Abortionite sacrament unacceptable is the nature of the choice.

    ASSISTED SUICIDE: The choice to self-abort one’s life with help from one or more other persons. Popular with Functionalist Abortionites for putting the sick out of our misery when they cannot manage it alone. See also MEDICIDE.

    Continued: http://bellsouthpwp.net/m/a/maryb683/marybrown/glossary/atod.htm

    • April

      Now I understand how you came to believe that Rob is racist. Many of these terms fit to his thought process. Thank you for the education brief. It really makes one stop and think how precious and valuable life really is. And what a gift life is from GOD.

      • http://naver sook young

        I second that and thank you.

        Sook Young
        Wife of the Samurai

  • Jay

    Abortion clinic escort
    Finding the Warrior Goddess In the Unlikeliest of Places: Shining Spider
    Quote: “Often, when we are on the “Pagan path” of seeking a relationship with the divine, we seek it out in what are still pretty traditional ways. Pagans – like other religious people – use meditation, chanting, prayer, worship, classes and workshops to find that aspect within each of us that links up with our idea of deity. Through these exercises we don’t only find peace or a connection with the goddess, but we also learn more about ourselves .I did ‘clinic defense’ work with a group based in DC. The basic premise is that, working with the clinic, we make a safe passage from street to door for women who are often yelled at by pro-life/anti-choice protesters. Not all clinics are in need of this – I, for many years, went to a Planned Parenthood.”

    Abortion clinic escort
    Witch Wars: Fire in the craft, Witchvox.com
    Quote: “Personally I am thrilled when I see another local Pagan at the grocery, bank etc. I kinda thought that the idea was we’re all in this together. I’ve seen the Christian turf wars at the local abortion clinic. As an escort I saw the Catholics show up at 7:30 AM to protest only to leave at 9:00 AM when the fundamentalists showed up to protest. All of the escorts including a Christian escort thought it was hysterically funny. We (the witches) don’t need turf wars.”

    Abortion clinic escort
    National Review the J Street five – Sacramento, CA abortion clinic case: 12-16-1991
    Quote: “The goddess lives here in my body,” “Masturbation can be fun,” and “Jesus was an olive-skinned gay Jewish healer, ” reported the National Review that several escorts at the Feminist WHC clinics screamed in their bizarre chants.

    Abortion clinic supporter
    Barn Burner: Sharon Lee: ebiid.net
    Quote: This story was written online about a Wiccan pro-abortion person coming against a pro-life minister: “Merry Ash is a Witch or—her preference—a Wiccan. So, picture it: Reverend Stern and his followers, with their placards of graphically ravaged fetuses, jostling through the crowd to find their place in the parade queue—and coming face-to-placard with Merry Ash and the founding membership of Gaia Coven. The Wimsy Voice had been there, which meant Dan Skat and me. Dan won Best Grab from the Mid-Maine Newspaper Association for the shot of Merry wrenching Reverend Stern’s placard out of his hands. Merry was ticketed by Officer Vince Kellor and had to pay a fine for littering. After she beat the placard to death against the side of the post office she left the pieces scattered around the parking lot.”

    Abortion clinic supporter
    Ethics of abortion, a witch’s perspective, Volume 3, number 3, feminista
    Quote: “Casting pentagrams in the air I yelled “I invoke D**na, protect your women” Some pro-choice women started chanting, “We all come from the goddess”, while other pro-choice women defiantly held up crosses made from rusty clothes hangers. As they supported my ritual they became a part of it, blending our energies together. I focused on “Miss Forward”, repeating the invocation until peaking our cone.” (Comments made regarding protesting in favor of abortion) .

    Alison
    abortion clinic worker
    described by this website: Pagan passages, the circle dance of life: Witchvox.com
    Quote: “Alison studied with the late Victor she helped publish one of the first American Craft magazines, Nemeton. She was one of the founding members of Wings of Vanthi coven. In addition to Faerie/Feri, Alison was initiated to 3rd degree Gardnerian by Lady Athena and Dagda. Politically, Alison was an ardent feminist and worked to assist women in obtaining safe, low-cost abortions prior to Roe v. Wade.”

    Aradia
    abortion clinic
    A report on witchcraft and abortion,Christianity Today: What’s going on? In a word, witchcraft
    Quote: The 1998 Sept/Oct edition of Christianity Today featured and article titled Bewitched, that spoke about how paganism was being mainstreamed into society. The author writes:”Like many Christians, I knew little about the neo-pagan movement until five years ago, when I discovered that the name of a Seattle abortion clinic, “Aradia,” named after a “goddess of healing arts,” also was cited in witchcraft literature as the daughter of the moon goddess Diana and the sun god Lucifer sent to earth to establish witchcraft.”

    Barbara Walker
    Author
    Ethics of abortion, a witch’s perspective, Volume 3, number 3, feminista, (pg 174). In her book, “The Skeptical Feminist” by Barbara Walker
    Quote: “Ancient methods of family limitation known to the Greeks and Romans–contraceptive sponges, abortifacient drugs–were outlawed by the clergy and retained only in some secret traditions of witchcraft”

    http://www.deathroe.com/pro-life_quotes/Quotes.cfm?CategoryID=26

    • Robert Smith

      Pagans respect the true freedoms of choice and they are willing to fight for them instead of harassing women.

      Too bad christians burned, hung, and stoned them over the years.

      Rob

      • Jana

        Poor Robert,
        Still up to twisting distorting the truth.
        The Islamic faith pours acid on their women, beheads them, stones them, sure real freedom there.

      • Jay

        Robert states: Pagans respect the true freedoms of choice and they are willing to fight for them instead of harassing women.

        If only that were true Robert. Careful examination reveals that the Wiccan pagan religion is a religion of DEATH. One of the most sacred of their rituals is clearly that of child sacrifice, which is now disguised as ABORTION! Its the same old despicable and insane ritual of bloodlust, repackaged into the new form, again, abortion! Is it any wonder that they were burned at the stake. A fitting end for such heinous of crimes against the the defenceless unborn!!!

        Wiccan
        abortion clinic volunteer
        KW at http://www.gargaro.com/1998/enlight.html

        Quote: “Though I have not fulfilled my goal of performing late term abortions on demand and offering incentives for women to do so, I have since set more realistic and achievable goals in its place. Two days of every week, I volunteer my time and services to a local area abortion clinic in an administrative position, as well as coordinating appointments and at times escorting women inside who are terrified by the antichoice crosshugger movement. Now being an atheist, a nihilist, a humanist what-have-you, I unlike Christians use common sense and logic instead of relying on the church industry to program my thoughts. So I of course know that Jesus, if he even existed at all, was certainly not the son of a god that does not exist. He was either insane or mislead by a mother who lied to him to cover up her own promiscuity. But keeping with my belief in the power of spite, I have decided that the goal of my helping out my local area abortion provider should be to help in the woman who would be carrying the second coming of Christ (Christ v2.0) so that I might be one who helps abort Jesus. Now of course I know better.

        There is no such fetus nor will there ever be as there is no god, but that doesn’t matter with spite. The knowledge alone that I do it with the hope of assisting in the termination of that one fetus is enough to satisfy my craving. :) Until next time. If I manage to terminate Jesus in his fetal form, I will party first and inform you afterwards. One must have priorities. Luv ya’. :)

        Maxen Samuel
        abortionist , NY
        NY Newsday: Doctor Deception, How abortion ‘con man’ defied the law:5-2-1993
        Quote: “He was very powerful and could cause my death, if he wished to do so, lighting candles, going into trances and be seemingly possessed by spirits . . . My husband would have friends and colleagues at our home to participate in these rituals,” stated abortionist Samuel’s ex-wife. Samuel was later arrested for violations of illegal dumping of bloody medical waste from one of his Queens clinics.

        Brenda Peterson
        abortion supporter
        New Age Journal: September/October 1993 Sister against Sister by Brenda Peterson
        Quote: “I delved into studying the old pagan, Earth-centered goddess religions that flourished for centuries. In these traditions the feminine was divine, her power bestowed on women and men alike. During this matriarchal time, the power to give and deny birth belonged to the goddess and to women. Men considered these birth mysteries to be a woman’s holy territory. Later, in the Greek traditions there were gods and goddesses, such as Artemis, symbol of wisdom, the hunt, the moon, and childbirth. In her book Pagan Meditations, Ginette Paris describes abortion as an essentially religious act, a sacred sacrifice to Artemis. “One aborts an impossible love,” she writes, “not a hatred.” In her new book, The Sacrament of Abortion, Paris explains further that if we saw abortion as a sacred ritual, it would restore to the act a sense of the sanctity of life. …For those sisters who have chosen the “sacrament” of abortion, we will make sacred the sacrifice.”

        • Jana

          Wow Jay.
          Valuable information. Can I send this on in some of my emails?

          • Jay

            By all means, Jana, be my guest and spread the info around. Cheers!

  • Jay

    Here is a typical statement from a pro-choice, liberal wiccan fem-bot.

    What type of world is it when women accept that if they don’t have the legal right to kill their offspring, they will somehow be forced to go mutilate themselves? What kind of world is it when women become so desperate not to be pregnant that they would hurt themselves? It sounds to me, like a world where women are still being controlled by men – where they have the wonderful choice to abort or be stuck in difficult situations. Rather than demanding better situations, we settle for the right to abort our children. What a wonderful “choice.” C. Gargaro 12/16/99

    A fitting response to the idiotic drivel above:

    The issue is who decides, the woman or the state. It’s about freedom of choice.

    The abortion lobby has always realized that abortion itself is indefensible. This has forced them to argue that whether abortion is the deliberate killing of a living human being or not, is unrelated to the question of whether it should be legal. In short, they have to divert attention toward the philosophical concepts of “choice” and “who decides” because they can’t afford for the public to look at what’s being chosen and decided.

    To imply that the issue is not abortion, but choice, is to say that what’s being chosen is irrelevant. That is clearly illogical given that all choices are not equal. Choosing whether to buy a new car is vastly different than choosing whether to produce child pornography, and the morality of those choices is not affected by the eventual decision. However, the pro-choice position is that abortion becomes acceptable simply by the act of choosing to do it.

    Defenders of slavery also used this same strategy. During the 1858 Abraham Lincoln- Stephen Douglas debates, Douglas said he did not support outlawing slavery, saying, “I am now speaking of rights under the Constitution, and not of moral or religious rights. I do not discuss the morals of the people favoring slavery, but let them settle that matter for themselves. I hold that the people who favor slavery are civilized, that they bear consciences, and that they are accountable to God and their posterity and not to us. It is for them to decide therefore the moral and religious right of the slavery question for themselves within their own limits.”

    Just substitute the word abortion every place the word slavery appears, and this statement perfectly defines the pro-choice position in America today. Lincoln’s response to Douglas’ pro-choice position on slavery was, “He cannot say that he would as soon see a wrong voted up as voted down. When Judge Douglas says whoever, or whatever community, wants slaves, they have a right to them, he is perfectly logical if there is nothing wrong in the institution; but if you admit that it is wrong, he cannot logically say that anybody has a right to do a wrong.”

    Lincoln recognized that there is nothing intrinsically noble about the concept of choice, and that there are choices which a society cannot allow the individual to make.

    The fact is, before one can rightly claim that the issue is “choice” or “who decides,” he or she must first examine what’s being chosen. If it’s what color shoes to wear, that’s one thing; if it’s whether to kill another human being, that’s another. Except in self-defense, the decision about whether one human being can kill another one cannot be left up to the individual who wants to do the killing.

    Besides, this “who decides, the woman or the state” rhetoric is idiotic on its face. Laws against abortion would not let the state decide who gets abortions any more than laws against rape let the state decide who gets raped. Instead, they establish that certain behaviors are so unacceptable they must be illegal.

    Finally, as used by abortion advocates, the term “pro-choice” is both inaccurate and dishonest. In an abortion, at least three people are directly impacted: the mother, the father, and the child. The pro-choice argument is that only one is entitled to a choice. Additionally, it has never been a part of their agenda to protect any choice other than abortion. They don’t lobby for women to have the legal right to be prostitutes or use crack cocaine. Yet these laws, and thousands of others, deny women “the right to choose” just as much as laws preventing abortion would.

    • Jana

      Jay,
      Great info. thank you for finding this for us.

      • Jay

        “Those who forsake the law praise the wicked; But such as keep the law contend with them.”
        Proverbs 28:4

  • Jay

    Radical Feminism and Abortion Rights: A Brief Summary and Critique

    Alan Branch
    Several years ago while serving as a pastor in Raleigh, NC, I saw an unforgettable bumper sticker. Emblazoned in white letters on a purple background was the following message: “Forgive me for not being in church this Sunday. I was too busy practicing witchcraft and becoming a lesbian.” This intentionally provocative statement illustrates a profound fact about the worldview of radical feminists-their counter-Christian morality is strongly rooted in paganism, an important point for us to understand lest we mistakenly assume all radical feminists are irreligious. In reality, many if not most radical feminists are quite religious. However, their religion is pantheistic and not theistic in nature.

    The purpose of this article is to summarize the world-view of radical feminism and its approach to abortion, to suggest some possible public policy implications, and then to offer a brief theological critique. In speaking of radical feminism and its approach to abortion, I am differentiating between first, second, and third generation feminists. First generation feminism was seen in the suffrage movement here in the United States. The second phase of feminism was the “women’s liberation” and sexual liberation movement of the 1960s and 1970s. Radical feminism is the “third wave” and is explicitly pagan in nature. In order to demonstrate the challenges of radical feminism, I have selected Rosemary Radford Ruether, Mary Daly, and Ginette Paris as primary examples. At key points I will refer to other feminists in order to amplify particular emphases.

    I. Rosemary Radford Ruether
    For twenty-five years, Rosemary Radford Ruether taught at Garrett Evangelical Seminary, a United Methodist School. She recently took a position at the Graduate Theological Union in Berkley. Ruether herself has self-identified as a Roman Catholic, though she clearly rejects basic teachings of the church. A graduate of Claremont Graduate School, Ruether’s thought has evolved from a feminist theologian who opposed patriarchy to one who aggressively embraces a counter-Christian worldview.1
    In Sexism and God Talk (1983), Ruether combines a higher-critical view of scripture, a pagan worldview, and a socialist economic analysis into a feminist critique of society. She accepts the findings of the Documentary Hypothesis and argues that Patriarchy is most prevalent in the “J” or “Yahwist” source. She says, “Although the predominantly male images and roles of God make Yahwism an agent in the sacralization of patriarchy, there are critical elements in Biblical theology that contradict this view of God.”2 Instead of the “patriarchal” Yahweh, Ruether urges women to worship the “goddess”:

    An ecological-feminist theology of nature must rethink the whole Western theological tradition of the hierarchical chain of being and chain of command. This theology must question the hierarchy of human over non-human nature as a relationship of ontological and moral value. . . . The God/ess who is the primal Matrix, the ground of being-new being, is neither stifling immanence nor rootless transcendence. Spirit and matter are not dichotomized but are the inside and outside of the same thing.”3

    Thus, for Ruether the “goddess” designates the divine or ultimate reality. She then moves from this foundation to what can best be described as a socialist-feminist economic critique of the West and the United States in particular. She concludes, “We seek a democratic socialist society that dismantles sexist and class hierarchies, that restores ownership and management of work to the base communities of workers themselves, who then create networks of economic and political relationships.”4
    Elsewhere, Ruether argues for a hermeneutic informed by Liberation Theology. According to Ruether, the key to proper interpretation of Scripture is for women to become critically aware of the falsifying and alienating experiences imposed on them by male-dominated culture. Thus, “Women’s experience, in this sense, is itself a grace event, an infusion of liberating empowerment from beyond the patriarchal cultural context, which allows them to critique and stand out against. . . androcentric interpretations of who and what they are.”5

    A prolific author, Ruether’s thought has continued to develop and can now be best described as a form of “ecofeminism,” a combination of the radical ecology movement and feminism. Ecofeminism as a movement posits that destruction of natural resources is closely related to the religion of patriarchy, which they see as hopelessly violent and exploitive. In contrast, feminine images of God encourage a kinder and gentler approach to environmental management. Thus, ecofeminists believe they can save the earth by worshiping the earth as a goddess.6 Ruether’s most expansive presentation of ecofeminism is found in Gaia & God: An Ecofeminist Theology of Earth Healing (1992). “Gaia” is the name for the Greek earth goddess. The term itself was adopted by biologist James Lovelock in the early 1970′s to describe his thesis that the entire earth is a living system behaving as a unified organism.7In Gaia and God, Ruether rejects the traditional Christian categories of creation, judgment, sin, fallenness, and redemption and suggests instead that we utilize the categories of creation, destruction, domination, deceit, and healing.

    How does Ruether’s worldview affect her approach to abortion? In “A Community Prayer for Choice,” Ruether expresses her conviction that abortion is a right women should have and they should make the choice whether or not to abort based on their own convictions. In this prayer, Ruether posits that abortion is a case of rights in conflict-the mother’s, society’s, and the pre-born child. These conflicts make Ruether “sad” and “angry that we are faced with such choices.”8 Echoing common abortion rights rhetoric, Ruether goes on to say:

    We are surrounded by many children who came into the world without the most minimal opportunities for love and development. We do not want to create life in that way. We want to create life that is chosen, life that is cherished and can be sustained and nourished.9
    In summary, Ruether believes children without certain unstated “minimal opportunities” should be aborted. Presented in this manner, abortion can become an environmental issue for ecofeminists since an expanding population is viewed as a primary threat to the earth itself.

    Continued: http://www.cbmw.org/Journal/Vol-9-No-2/Radical-Feminism-and-Abortion-Rights

  • Jay

    Any of you heard about how Lady Gaga announced her new line of “Proper Attire” condoms? She apparently also announced that all proceeds would go to Planned Parenthood, who, as I’m sure you know if you’re in this Dept., are the largest abortion provider in the United States…

    I think everyone needs to boycott her, and not purchase any Lady Gaga music or merchandise (especially the new line of her’s!), or look up any of her songs on video or music sites like YouTube, Yahoo! Video, etc. (as that indirectly increases her funds), and not listen to any radio stations while they’re playing her music, until she is willing to dedicate her profits to something else…

    • Jana

      Jay,
      Have you seen her lately? She always has the weirdest makeup on especially around her eyes. She reminds me of a pagan. It seems she tries to get more outlandish every week.

      • Jay

        You know Jana, I watched a documentary on lady gaga. I noticed, as you did, the outlandish make-up around her eyes. Her eyes, I noticed, seemed to me to be lifeless, dead eyes, like the eyes of a shark. Cold, lifeless eyes, until he bites into its prey, and his eyes come to life and roll back in their sockets revelling in the kill. As well, the documentary brought to mind the nature of a coyote pack when close to an urban neighbourhood. Coyotes, it seems, will feast on anything, they are not particular, being the carnivores that they are. It is not uncommon for pets to go missing. They seem to be especially fond of eating dog. Should there be a male dog in the neighbourhood, the pack will send out their female who will flirt with the male dog, and luring the male dog back to where the pack is waiting for their dinner. Bye bye doggie! Yum yum. Now think of the immense influence miss lady gaga has on our youth and how many young minds she impressed with certain questionable and secular world views. Homosexuality, debauchery, and now is an ardent advocate of abortion!!! The female coyote at her work? How many deaths and ruined lives will she be responsible for in the end? The spirit of Jezebel!!!

  • Jay

    Who was Jezebel?

    Jezebel was the daughter of Ethbaal, king of the Zidonians or Tyre and Sidon. King Ahab of Israel, the son of Omri, did evil in the sight of the Lord, took Jezebel in marriage and went and served Baal. Ahab coveted the vineyard of Naboth and when he could not obtain it, Jezebel slandered Naboth, he was stoned and the vineyard given to Ahab. The wife of Ahab had introduced the abominations of Astarte worship into Israel. Jezebel slew the prophets of the Lord, hiding others in a cave with bread and water. Jezebel is referred to as the corrupt woman, the mother of harlots and abominations of the earth. She led her husband into the same idolatry and fed the prophets of Baal at her own table.

    Jezebel is mentioned as the licentious false prophet of the Thyatira Church of the seven churches of Revelation. The church at Thyatira seems to fulfill the age of the Western Church from the dark ages unto the present time when their last works are more than the first. The nicolaitan idea of fleshly leadership in the church typified Rome and continued with the Protestants with the separation of clergy and laity. The denial of the sacramental quality of marriage leads the church into fornication and the false authority leads the church into confusion and false prophecy.

    What Jesus had against the church of Thyatira was that “You suffer that woman Jezebel, which calls herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication and to eat things sacrificed unto idols. And I gave her space to repent of her fornication and she repented not. Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.”

    Jezebel is a figurative and spiritual name for us. The Thyratiran church continues to this day and the Jezebel spirit manifests herself in the church and reaches to the highest pinnacles of government. The prophecy of the tribulation is in these last days and includes the greater part of Christendom that has allowed idolatry and the Jezebel spirit to flourish in the church and subsequently into all areas of society. Without an attitude of holiness, grace turns into licentiousness.

    Jezebel is a whore and a witch whose spirit endures in the church by taking over the vineyard of the Lord. She covers her face with make-up to appear more attractive. Finally, Jezebel was a woman eventually destroyed by the very government she herself corrupted. The word of God came to Elijah and called him to show himself to Ahab and it would rain. The prophet came out of nowhere, stirred the righteous hearts, and the priests of Baal were put to death by the people. It was not Elijah alone but Jehu the anointed King over Israel that sought out the prophets of Baal and slew them, avenging the blood of the prophets. It was this king that dealt Jezebel the death blow by having her thrown down from the wall. In the end, Jehu did not follow the laws of the Lord with all His heart but it shall not be so with us.

    You are under the law of love and are among the overcomers, if in fact you are among the remnant. We may not be the Elijah to come or even a prophet but under our heritage, we are kings and priests. It is up to the church to become the spotless Bride in these last days and cast out the false prophets, we have the right and the power, we need but have the resolve to appropriate this power as the chosen remnant.

    Continued: http://latter-rain.com/eschae/jezebel.htm

    • Jana

      Reminds us of people like Lady Gaga, and several others out there.
      I feel sorry for these people who are searching and searching for THE something that I have already found, and have a personal relationship with.
      Praise the Lord.

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