Comments Subscribe to Personal Liberty News Feed Subscribe to Personal Liberty
 

Ten Years Later And Still Losing

September 7, 2011 by  

Ten Years Later And Still Losing

When it comes to defeating Islamic extremists, maybe President Barack Obama should take lessons from Hollywood bad boy Charlie Sheen. That way Obama could reach his younger constituency through the magic of YouTube.

Secretary of State Hillary Clinton could throw the President a softball: “Barack, how are you doing against al-Qaida?”

The President could drag his long ebony fingers across his tanned face and then tug his graying hair. “Winning! Still winning!”

Sheen’s rants fueled by caffeine and coke — the beverage or the leaf — didn’t get him his job back on Two and a Half Men. Obama wants to keep his job. But most of us know that Obama is “losing” the War on Terror. I suspect he may be doing so on purpose.

In the 10 years since Islam murdered thousands of our women and children, we are still paying dearly for a war without borders against a ragtag enemy that hides in dark caverns.

Yes, Osama bin Laden was finally killed. And Saddam Hussein was hanged. But the United States is having one heck of a time extricating our military from Islamic lands; places such as Pakistan, where corrupt allies are most likely enemies. The lines between good and bad are so blurred these days that the War on Terror reads like a John le Carré spy novel, where evil always seems to find a fresh foothold.

Then there is the home front where a decade after 9/11 we must face the ugly truth that America continues to become a less free society.

A couple of weeks ago, as I caught a plane back to Calgary, I had the good fortune not to be submitted to a total body scan. I did get the pat-down, and then walked over and bought the August issue of Harper’s. The cover: “The American State of Terror.”

The feature article — To Catch A Terrorist: The FBI hunts for the enemy within — is the story about the vast powers given away by our government to law enforcement.

Harper’s points out liberties we have lost because of the Patriot Act, which has put unprecedented power in the hands of the FBI and even local law enforcement.

Ordinary cops are using Suspicious Activity Reports (SARs). And SARs goes far beyond investigating blatant acts you might expect from a terrorist.

Harper’s reports that suspicious activities listed on the Los Angeles Police Department’s website include: “joggers stretching for an inordinate amount of time and people carrying on long conversations on pay or cellular phones.”

That leaves us fighting a two-front war: one against the terrorists and one against our own government. Yet the Liberals don’t see it this way. They just think the government is doing its job in protecting us. What I want to know is, who is going to protect us from the government?

Victory Not In Sight
Our government cannot or will not provide an endgame to win the War on Terror. It is already the longest war in America’s history, and just how much longer it will last depends on who you ask. I tend to think it will last as long as Washington wants it to.

Yet more American blood is spilled every passing month and the nation’s once unquestioned superpower status slips a little further. It is a war that is bleeding away any chance at peace and prosperity.

It is, in the end, another Vietnam. As with that war, the U.S. forces have not been defeated on the battlefield. Back then we were an occupation force trying to inflict Western values on a people that were willing to defend their way of life to the last combatant, regardless of how long it took.

Just as were the North Vietnamese, the Taliban are very patient. In fact, the Taliban has an old saying: “You have all the watches. We have all the time.”

In his 2011 New York Times Bestseller, The Longest War, Peter L. Bergen writes that America can’t even shape events in Kabul, the capital of Afghanistan.

“Years after the fall of the Taliban, Kabul had a distinctly fin-de siècle air,” wrote Bergen. “An economy steeped in corruption and driven by the heroin/opium trade and foreign aid enriched an elite who partied into the night, taking advantage of new freedoms that under the Taliban might have earned them a reprimand from the religious police (listening to music); landed them in prison (drinking alcohol); or had them stoned to death (sex outside marriage)… But, as years went by, the establishments catering to foreigners and rich Afghans increasingly took on the look of fortresses. Hotels invested in bomb shelters and restaurants deployed armed guards. In May 2006, an angry anti-American mob shot out the ground-floor windows of Kabul’s five-star Serena hotel, and a year later Taliban fighters shot the guards outside the same hotel and went room to room hunting and shooting Westerners.”

You can order Bergen’s book at Amazon.com by clicking here.

The Escalating Economic Cost
On August 28 the Los Angeles Times reported:

“A decade after the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon, federal and state governments are spending about $75 billion a year on domestic security, setting up sophisticated radio networks, upgrading emergency medical response equipment, installing surveillance cameras and bombproof walls, and outfitting airport screeners to detect an ever-evolving list of mobile explosives.”

The Times doubts this money is being put to good use. The paper quoted al-Qaida expert and Ohio State University professor John Mueller: "The number of people worldwide who are killed by Muslim-type terrorists, al-Qaida wannabes, is maybe a few hundred outside of war zones. It’s basically the same number of people who die drowning in the bathtub each year.”

Mueller added, if your chance of being killed by a terrorist in the U.S. is 1 in 3.5 million, the question is, how much do you want to spend to get that down to 1 in 4.5 million?

The answer may depend on who is getting paid to improve those odds. Meanwhile, keeping the public perpetually afraid insures a tighter grip on power for the ruling elite.

So there you have it; Obama is losing the War on Terror. It is strange, but President Bill Clinton and President George W. Bush didn’t fare all that well either. It seems that Washington just can’t stand the idea of seeing the War on Terror end.

Yours in good times and bad,

John Myers
Editor, Myers Energy & Gold Report

John Myers

is editor of Myers’ Energy and Gold Report. The son of C.V. Myers, the original publisher of Oilweek Magazine, John has worked with two of the world’s largest investment publishers, Phillips and Agora. He was the original editor for Outstanding Investments and has more than 20 years experience as an investment writer. John is a graduate of the University of Calgary. He has worked for Prudential Securities in Spokane, Wash., as a registered investment advisor. His office location in Calgary, Alberta, is just minutes away from the headquarters of some of the biggest players in today’s energy markets. This gives him personal access to everyone from oil CEOs to roughnecks, where he learns secrets from oil insiders he passes on to his subscribers. Plus, during his years in Spokane he cultivated a network of relationships with mining insiders in Idaho, Oregon and Washington.

Facebook Conversations

Join the Discussion:
View Comments to “Ten Years Later And Still Losing”

Comment Policy: We encourage an open discussion with a wide range of viewpoints, even extreme ones, but we will not tolerate racism, profanity or slanderous comments toward the author(s) or comment participants. Make your case passionately, but civilly. Please don't stoop to name calling. We use filters for spam protection. If your comment does not appear, it is likely because it violates the above policy or contains links or language typical of spam. We reserve the right to remove comments at our discretion.

Is there news related to personal liberty happening in your area? Contact us at newstips@personalliberty.com

  • DaveH

    “It seems that Washington just can’t stand the idea of seeing the War on Terror end”.
    You got that one right, John.

    • Flynn

      Wasn’t it the new Mayor of Chicago who once said, “Never let a good crisis (war) go to waste”? Our dear President will never let the War on Terror end as long as it is useful to him even though he will no longer use the terminology.

      • DaveH

        Unbelievable, Flynn. I didn’t know that. What is wrong with Chicago’s citizens? Are they masochists? Do they love being suppressed?

        • JeffH

          Rahm Emmanuel is the mayor in Chicago. That’s his only and most famous quote.

        • Michael

          It appears quite a few (a majority?) of American citizens don’t mind being oppressed as they (we) continue to vote for the likes of McConnell, Cornyn, Boehner, Cantor, Reid, Pelosi, etc ad nauseum. We are becoming more and more like the citizens of Germany in the early 1930s and I fear the day will come when we will all live under the boot heel of someone much like Hitler.

          • Bob from SoCal

            I agree with Ron Paul, we should just pull our troops out. Then we should just stay strong defensively so no one will ever even want to attack us. We should lay waste to any enemy that attacks us quickly and decisively, then get out. This will make the world think twice about attacking the U.S.. We should only be fighting for American interests, not for the interests of globalists that want to dominate the world.

          • DaveH

            Ditto, Bob.

          • JeffH

            Bob from SoCal, well stated and in complete agreement.

        • Vicki

          End the War on Terror and win to boot? Easy. Just stop being afraid. Tell our leaders to stop being afraid for us.

          https://secure.downsizedc.org/etp/not-afraid/

          Just think if every one of us did this just once a day between now and the 11th.

          • Libertarian

            Thank you so much Vicky for this link!

            THIS SEEMS TO BE ONE OF THE ANSWERS PROVIDED TO US WITHIN THE CURRENT SYSTEM! :)

    • Kate8

      DaveH – It is exactly right.

      For you, and all the rest of those who don’t believe there is a well orchestrated…yes (dare I say it) CONSPIRACY, behind everthing that occurs, right down to our personal lives…I have a video for you.

      This could well be the MOST important information you will ever receive. This is, without a doubt, the most critical piece of information ever to be given us, whether Right, Left, and everything in between.

      Truth knows no ideology. This could be exactly what we need for us to come together and save, not only our nation, but our world.

      I guarantee you will never see things in the same way.

      Take the time to watch it. EVERYONE. You can lead a person to the truth, but you can’t make him look at it.

      Send it to everyone you know. Before it’s too late.

      http://www.brasschecktv.com/videos/offensive-technology/predictive-programming.html

      • Dan az

        Kate
        Another good one but still have to put it on hold for now.I did bookmark it because that site will take awhile.Thanks for the site!

      • Marty S.

        Kate, as always your reference sites are excellent. When I watched it I could not believe how gradual the brainwashing process is. I would recommend all who read and post here to take the time to review this material. The commentary is well written and and very informative. Thanks again.

    • Kristen

      As if this will really happen. We should get all of our gun rights back again and let us be our homeland security. The government is not there to protect us in all ways. People use the government as the bank, a failsafe, homeland security, and retirement. It’s no wonder why they are so intrusive in our lives.

      My father use to run his house like a real tyrant. Every time we disagreed with him his reply was always. “I work, I bring in the food, I keep the lights on, and I provide the house! What’s your case?” Well, the government almost has that kind of control on more than half of Americans now. What do you think they are going to say? We should end this war on “terror!” We need to take control again and then we might be able to see this happen.

  • DAVID M

    OBAMA 2012! DOPE AND WELFARE FOR ALL!

    • Duane Rosekrans

      To quote Forrest Gump “Stupid Is, Stupid Does

    • brothergene

      GOP/TP 2012, All for the rich, poverty for the rest of us

  • Sam

    Hi John,

    You state that “In the 10 years since Islam murdered thousands of our women and children,…”.

    How can you hold 1.5 Billion Muslims responsible for the act of few Muslims?

    Based on your logic, I should be able to say “In the 60+ years that Christianity murdered 6 million Jewish men, women and children during the Holocaust, …”.

    How does this sound to you, Mr. Myers???

    As you know, there are many more historical examples where Christianity was involved in horrendous acts of mass murder of non-Christians. Does Hiroshima ring a bell? What about colonialism? Need I say more?

    • Dagney

      So, you are blaming Christianity for Hitler and Hiroshima? Interesting…..wierd, but interesting. LOL. I think different PEOPLE with different views commited all kinds of acts. However, TERRORISM since the 1970′s can be said to have been commited almost 99.9% by MUSLIM EXTREMISTS. Yes, you can blame each act on the individuals for the choices they made. However, you cannot deny that their must be SOMETHING in the Muslim religion that is compelling this extremism.

      There is nothing in the Christian Bible that compels the acts of violence you so artfully tried to blame on Christians. So, try another delusion, will you!

      • Mike

        In that case -say- “MUSLIM EXTREMISTS”… don’t say, “Islam”.

        besides….
        as mentioned in Bob Livingston’s blog a few days ago,
        that crime (9/11) has not yet been adequately solved.
        (too many holes in the story)

        • Dagney

          Sorry, conspiracy theories are fun, but not rooted in reality.

          • JeffH

            Dagney, not rooted in reality? When something doesn’t add up like say 2 + 3 = 4 would you not question it or would you just accept it as the truth? Do you trust our government? Just askin’?

          • Kate8

            Sam, I don’t know where you get your history, but Hitler was not a Christian. He was, in fact, another front man for the Freemasonic cult.

            And for the record, besides the genocide of 6million Jews, some 11million Christians were slaughtered by the Nazis, many of whom worked courageously and tirelessly trying to save Jewish lives.

          • Kate8

            Dagney, I gurantee that if you watch this video, you will never mock the idea of conspiracies again.

            If you dare.

            http://www.brasschecktv.com/videos/offensive-technology/predictive-programming.html

          • http://marcum1@wildblue.net coal miner

            Dagney
            Igurantee Kate8 is nuts. HA HA HA

          • Kate8

            coal – Didn’t think you would watch it. It’ more fun for you to ridicule me without knowing what I’m presenting.

            Actually, the video is how we are, as we speak, being programmed to accept being chipped. It’s the same mind-control process that’s been used to engineer our thinking all along.

            If you don’t know these things, then your mind is being manipulated.

            But, no doubt, you don’t want to know that.

          • Jay

            Kate, excellent videos, and right on the mark. Btw, i subscribed, and will pass it on to all of my e:mail contacts. Have you noticed the number of people waking up to all this, is increasing? This is very encouraging! Thanks for the link!

          • Kate8

            Jay – You are very welcome.

            Actually, I got the link from Carlucci.

            If everyone was aware of this stuff, we could end ALL OF THIS.

            The PTB depend on us not seeing the forest for the trees.

          • Jay

            Your statement is very correct Kate! As we are told in Isaiah; “My people are destroyed for lack of
            knowledge!

      • Sheldon

        Come on Sam… the Christians haven’t used the Bible as an excuse for killing since the middle ages. It’s been a couple of hundred years since the Spanish Inquisition and Spanish destruction of South America civilizations. It’s also been more than a few centuries since the Christians used the Bible as an excuse for Holy War, or The Crusades. Then again, Christians HAVE used different versions of the Bible as an excuse to kill each other in Ireland and of course the IRA were Christian terrorists up until a decade ago… so you do have a small point.

        • Flynn

          Come on people! Let’s not confuse Christianity with some over zealous followers of Christianity. Neither should we confuse the Muslim faith with some of the screwed up followers of Mohammed. Show me 10,000 Christians, and I will show your 10,000 variants of the Faith; but let’s all be united by the overriding admonition of Jesus Christ to “Love one another”. At least, all followers of Christ allow each individual to make up his or her own mind and arrive at the truth in his or her own way. Did those 18 Muslims on 9/11/01 have the right to make up there own mind to die for Mohammed for a dozen beautiful virgins in the after life, or were they force to do it? I submit that they had no choice.

          • Kate8

            Flynn – I have just learned another interesting thing.

            The propaganda to the Islamic world is intended to make them view us as the Great Satan, and it’s entirely understandable.

            What is their gauge for judging America, which they understand as the Christian world? THE JERRY SPRINGER SHOW. This, they believe, is who we are.

            The see it as our Christianity that is behind all of the immorality, decadence and war, and they truly believe the killing of Christians is ridding the world of this evil. Little to they know that this degrading of humanity is coming from the Leftist camp, but they don’t understand the division we live under, either.

            We are all hating each other because the very premises of our understanding is vastly distorted and flawed.

          • moonbeam

            “10,000 Christians, and I will show your 10,000 variants of the Faith”

            You’re right about that, Flynn. I’ve always said if there are 10 Christians in a room you will get 10 different interpretations of the same book, the Bible. This is one of the things that frustrates most Christians. How can we be reading the same book and not agree on what it says?

            That’s why I stopped asking preachers, pastors, etc anything about God. I go straight to God in prayer and ask Him myself. This way I know I’m getting the correct answer, and His answers have always come out true. Otherwise I’m only getting someone elses’s what they THINK it means.

            I used to go to a church where I knew for a FACT what they taught was wrong in interpretation. To them, everything under the sun represents “the church” when this is far from the truth. A church that continues to preach that christmas and easter have everything to do with Christ is a false church and the truth is not in them. They are old Babylonian pagan festival holidays celebrated LONG before Christ was born.

            This same church does not offer communion. The “pastor” said we don’t need to do it. I rebuke that. Jesus said to “do this in remembrance of me.”, yet this non-ordained/self ordained pastor thinks his word over rides what Jesus said to do. Any other church I’ve been to always had communion.

            Meanwhile they’re in the church kitchen dying easter eggs and doing sunrise easter services, both of which honor pagan false gods and goddesses, doing exactly what God said NOT to do “do not pick up their ways.” Instead of doing easter, we should be honoring Passover instead.

            You will understand when you realize the easter bunny and colored eggs are not biblical and have not none thing to do with Christ. If anyone sees the easter bunny and its connection to Christ mentioned in the bible, I dare you to show me where. I read my bible daily and the easter bunny and dying eggs are NOT in there!

            God said “Even the elite will be deceived.” Again, He is giving us truth, but instead we listen to wannabe preachers who follow man’s tradition instead of following God’s Word.

          • Kate8

            moonbeam – Good post.

            Easter is to honor Ishtar, (represented by the planet Venus), who claimed to have come to earth in an egg, and the bunnies, birds and little animals cared for the egg until it hatched.

            She is also known as the Queen of Heaven (where have we heard that before?)

          • Sheldon

            Actually eggs and rabbits are signs of fertility tied into various pagan rites for the celebration of spring (vernal equinox). You know, wishing for a good crop and lots of animals so you can eat later in the year. These symbols were intertwined with Christianity to help with converting the masses.
            Same thing with Christmas. Pagan celebrations around the winter solstice were adopted by Christianity to help convince people to switch religions. The shortest day of the year signifies longer days and the birth of a new year… so they moved Christ’s birthday from September to December. How many firs trees (aka Christmas Trees) were in Palestine 2000 years ago?

          • Jay

            Keep in mind moonbeam, that all of us are at different levels of understanding, and our walk with the Lord. Not all are mature, many are still on milk. Also, we must never forget the infiltration of the socialist/fascist/communists into the main-stream church, who are preaching a different gospel. The idea is to bring ill repute to the body of Christ. They think nothing of joining the Church, and purposely engaging in questionable behaviour for the purpose of undermining Christianity. They have done that, and are still doing such, with the Catholic Church. We are are told in Scriptures, that the body of Christ is one, but the enemy wants nothing less then disintegration, and ultimate inhalation. Of course, the poor blind goats of satan have been seriously misled!

          • Kate8

            Correct, Jay. And it’s not just the Catholic church. Many of the Protestants are corrupted, as well.

            The PTB have co-opted the churches to help them bring in their agenda. People are being shepherded right down the NWO shute.

          • Kate8

            Sorry. Chute.

          • Dan az

            Kate
            very well put and accurate!

          • Jana

            Kate8,
            As it says in Revelation Chapter 1 thru chapter 3, Out of 7 churches only 2 were found with nothing against them. They had left their first love (Christ) and allowed lies in their midst and were seduced AWAY from God.

          • Al Sieber

            Kate, don’t trust anyone that belongs to the National Council Council of Church’s.

      • eddie47d

        Dagney says “there must be something in the Muslim religion that is compelling this extremism” . How about Western occupation of Arab lands. Unless you’d like to have Chinese troops in every state of our union then your answer is loud and clear. No one likes foreign troops within their borders and killing their citizens by the thousands. We got our revenge or pound of flesh about 10 years ago. Now we are only creating more angry Muslims.

        • BKWsr

          What do you mean us occupying their lands. Most of the land the Muslums sit on is not theirs either. We are where we are because we were attacked. To say what you do means you know nothing of history. Though I am no scholar. From the very beginning of Islam it was violent, Out to destroy the infidels, and take over their lands. As to comments by your comrads read the koran. I have. It is nothing but angry hatrid towards the infidels. To kill them. to destroy them. If you are from the US, weather you are a muslim or not. you are a infidel, to be killed or inslaved.

          • Altaica

            Ok, and whose lands are they anyway?

            If you say Christian then you need to look further back. The Sumerian/Mesopotamian people existed before the Christians. Which were most definitely not Christian or Jewish. I am quite sure if you look back far enough in history you will find that most people are claiming lands as theirs that were not originally theirs.

            So what criteria do you follow as to whether a land belongs to someone or not?

            Turkey’s Muslim, and they were Christian at some point. They were also pagan before that. After all the oldest Temple we have discovered is in Turkey, at 11,600 years old that predates the religions that try and lay claim to it. Should we return those lands to the unknown nature based religion that occupied it before and only the descendants of those people?

            How do you determine who really has the right to this pile of dirt or that one?

            Why do we even need to be fighting each other over ideals?

            So tell me, how do you determine who has a right to a mass of land? After all, most people’s ancestors in this country forced their way here and pushed out the previous occupants. So, by the logic you seem to be using, if you haven’t even a shred of native heritage in your blood should you really be allowed to stay here? I mean, really, it’s not really your country anyway, isn’t that the idea behind your argument?

            Please clarify what you meant by your statement. I am curious by what you really meant.

          • TIME

            Altacia,

            Oddly if you really look into it {No Treaty} was broken with the Native American Indians until after 1861.

            If you look deeper into why thats the case what you will find is that Progressives and old Abe’s EO #1 is the root cause of that problem.

            Oddly so to is EO #1 the root problem with whats wrong with this nation today. as in we are no longer and have not been a union of States since the Civil War when the Constitution and Bill of Rights were thrown out with the bath water. We are now and have been since a Corporation called the United States of America, with a shadow government thats set up with a CEO = POTUS Board od Directors = Congress, and Enforcers = The DOJ, now we can add HLS, EPA, FEMA, TSA, just to name a few.

            Otherwise I find many of your post very interesting.

            Can you guess what and why that is?

          • http://www.boblivingstonletter.com/ Bob Livingston

            Dear TIME,

            You write: “Oddly if you really look into it {No Treaty} was broken with the Native American Indians until after 1861.” You could not be more wrong. I suggest you go back and study your history of the white settlement of what was then called the Virginia, Kentucky and Ohio regions. Whites consistently violated treaties in the late 1700s-early 1800s, many almost as soon as they were signed.

            Best wishes,
            Bob

          • Altaica

            Time:

            I think we need to kick that corporation out of power and get the people back in charge of our nation. Obviously the way things are has created one big mess.

            In the state of things today I can’t help but think how true the movie “V, Vendetta” really hits home. One of my favorite lines in the film is “People should not be afraid of their governments, governments should be afraid of their people.” If enough people woke up to what is really going on; our government would be on the run.

            I’ll make a guess, then you can tell me your answer. You find it interesting cause I’m not afraid to ask questions and try and get people to think?

          • Jana

            Altaica
            This is in answer to one of your other posts that you asked questions in.
            It is difficult to answer some of your questions in depth for lack of space, but I will do my best.

            Q- Why is it OK for some Christians to make blanket statements about another religion but they get furious when other religions act in kind?
            Isn’t this just a hypocrisy?
            Answer: In the first place, some of us have actually studied the Bible, (the King James Version, now for several years. Not just reading through it, but delving in depth. The OT is as valuable as the NT. I have been studying at approximately 5 hours a week for the last 20 years) and can honestly tell you I am not an expert on the Bible. The more you study, the more you find there is to learn. Some people say they have read the Bible through 2 or 3 times, but if you don’t comprehend what you have read what use is it?

            The OT was written in ancient Hebrew, the NT was written in Greek and Aramaic.. which obviously you already know this since you have done so much studying yourself.
            There are tools for studying the Word such as a GOOD Strong’s Concordance, and a Wycliffe Bible Dictionary as well as a Smith’s Bible Dictionary. There are others, I even have a wonderful program on my computer. The one thing we have to watch for are these newer versions of the Bible, or newer versions of these other tools I was talking about, because some people get in there and rewrite Biblical truths, just like they have done with our history. In other words they have watered it down so it doesn’t give us the food for our souls that we need.

            Satanists are NOT a branch of Christianity. Christian means Christ like. Satan thought he ought to sit on the Mercy Seat of God. He in his own mind had elevated himself to be above God. So during the First World Age, which is another deep study, Lucifer, Sluefoot, the Serpent, the Deceiver, (he has many names) convinced a third of the Angels to follow him. At that time the Angels had free will, just like we do today.

            Satan has made it his job to twist the truths of the Bible. Many other religions have just enough truth in them to lead people astray.

            Q I find the blanket statement that any religion other than Judeo-Christian worship Satan a prejudiced lie, that many Christians use to hate and destroy those that do not agree with their much younger religious path. Why is it that any path the average Christian doesn’t understand or agree with get labeled with such hateful titles when Christ preached love.

            A. In the first place I know of no Christian that uses hate. Is it hateful to tell someone the truth? No it’s an act of love to tell someone the TRUTH, when they know good and well that they are going to be attacked, and accused of hatred and called unfair names. The average Christian you are talking about knows Jesus Christ as their Savior.
            Heb 4:12
            12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
            KJV

            Q. Why must there be so much vilifying of other religions, just because they are different?
            A. Telling the truth about what other religions believe is not vilifying, it is clarifying. What is so hard to understand about Islam? Have you ever studied the life of Mohammad the one who wrote the Qu’ran? I was curious about Islam, and have also been studying the Qu’ran and the Hadiths. It is indeed a harsh, hateful and hurtful religion.
            Have you ever loved someone, say your child, and you watch as they make bad decisions for their lives over and over again? You feel so bad for your child and you want so desperately to reach this child to impart some wisdom into him/her. The harder you try the more you are rejected. Eventually though when your child matures, he/she will hear and understand the truth and respect your knowledge, and turn from their wicked ways.
            This is exactly how we feel when we see people turn their back on Christ’s teachings and follow lies and deceptions.
            Matt 10:34-38
            34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
            35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.
            36 And a man’s foes shall be they of his own household.
            37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.
            38 And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.
            KJV

            Q. “Let he who is without sin cast the first stone?” Why does a religion that believes they are all born in sin and therefore all of sin have the right to judge us? Isn’t this hypocritical of the teachings of Jesus of Nazereth?

            A. There is a difference between judging and discernment. To pass a judgment on someone is to sentence them to a punishment. That is NOT ours to make, but only God can make that kind of Judgment. But to judge or discern if what someone says is right or true, that is definitely what we are supposed to do. But first, we must study the Word of God to know the Truth before we can even know if something being presented to us is a lie or a deception or a trick. We have to be aware of the Truth so we won’t fall for a lie.

            Matt 7:16-21
            16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
            17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
            18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
            19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
            20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
            21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
            KJV

            Altaica, I have no PHD. I have just studied God’s Word. I have talked with many who have come out of college (Seminary) that actually have no comprehension of God or even who He is. Too many teachers in Theology have knowledge of all religions, but lack true comprehension of THE ONE TRUE GOD.

            Eph 6:10-17
            10 Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might.
            11 Put on the whole amour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.
            12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
            13 Wherefore take unto you the whole amour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.
            14 Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness;
            15 And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace;
            16 Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked.
            17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:
            KJV

            Eph 6:19-20
            9 And for me, that utterance may be given unto me, that I may open my mouth boldly, to make known the mystery of the gospel,
            20 For which I am an ambassador in bonds: that therein I may speak boldly, as I ought to speak.
            KJV

        • Al Sieber

          eddie, I agree with you.

      • http://marcum1@wildblue.net coal miner

        Dagney

        The Inquisition “The Christian resolve to find the world evil and ugly, has made the world evil and ugly.” – Friedrich Nietzsche Today, the xtian church does not have the …

        http://www.exposingchristianity.com/inquisition.html

        • BKWsr

          Coal miner, what are you tring to tell us. Do you really think any thing the church of Satan has to say about christanity is good or true? The church has a lot of eval history because of the eval of man(us). influenced by Satan. You want to talk about the eval things the churches have done in the past by men trying to be god. then do so. Use history as a lession not to repeat past errors, But don’t do it with the writings of the church of Satan. The 10 commandments are a perfict example of laws from our creater. Whats a shame is that we do not live by them.

          • Altaica

            Where do you get coal’s information being from the Church of Satan?

            I skimmed the site and it looks like the same information published in Encyclopedia of Heretics and Heresies by Crofton and also some other books I have read.

            You know, the Bible did teach me some nifty vocabulary words when I was in 4th grade. I learned from the Bible what a scourge whip was and what a flogging was. I read those words in the bible then got out the dictionary. In this day and age our kids would be sheltered from learning about these horrible acts in the bible.

          • Jay

            Curious that you never learned words like: Grace, mercy, forgiveness, freedom, peace, love, charity, faithfulness, kindness, restoration, humility, ect… Just what sort of book were you reading?

          • BKWsr

            Altaica resurch the link he left on his remark. case closed. Also I do have Native American ansestery.

          • Altaica

            Hmm, well, they seem to have gotten their information from the same pool of info that other writers have. History is one of those subjects that you have to look at many sides to form the whole. It’s often written by the victor and you have to dig to find those kernels of objectivity. I’ve seen the same information presented by many different authors, so who replicates it on their website doesn’t really matter if the information is still the same as other published works. They probably read the same books.

            I too have Native American Ancestry, in fact when I spoke of Imminent/ Eminent Domain in another post it was used to take a very large tract of farm land from my great great grandmother who was Native American. I’ve been trying to reconnect with my ancestry which has been no easy task. I hit a dead end on my mother’s side as my great great grandmother’s tribe is completely gone. I also have ancestry on my father’s side which is either one of the Souixan tribes or Hopi. I have a lot of the same facial features and bone structures common to the latter so that is where we are leaning, but getting the family tree out of my relatives has been difficult. I also feel a strong connection to the Kachina and wear the Sun Kachina symbol often, my spiritual views are very close, so it may be no mere coincidence that I have those leanings.

            Jay:
            Oh, I learned those words too, but I also learned a lot of other words along with them. But I had already learned those words from home and school, I was just pointing out that there were other words I learned from the bible that I did not learn elsewhere. A lot of those words in today’s over protective, pc world would probably be kept out. The world is not all rainbows and butterflies and the Bible shows that, our messed up school system however… I think PC has gone way too far and people have become over sensitive about too darn much.

            While I do not agree that Christianity is the path for me or the end all be all, I do believe that the Bible does have a lot of good stories within it. I think there are some truths there, just as I feel there are in other religions. I don’t honestly think any one religion holds all the answers, which is why I think it is up to each person to find the path that works for them. If it makes you a moral person and a good person towards your fellow man, great! There are some I question because they harbor such hatred for other views, and I don’t think that is what Jesus taught. While I am not a Christian I do believe in the love that Jesus the healer professed. I believe he was a figure that walked the world and was an example of good works. I feel the same about Ghandi and Mother Theresa. The things Jesus did such as healing the sick are things that a Shaman of the highest skill and experience can do. To me, a walker on the Shamanic path, Jesus was a very skilled Shaman, one who walked the path fully. It was Jesus who said “greater things than I have done, you will do.” As with most things that have been passed down over time, however, I am sure the stories have changed and been edited even before they were written.

            As humans are the ones that recorded events and wrote down stories passed from one to another we are left with seeking what is the overarching theme or kernel of truth hidden within. Humans love to exaggerate, it makes it easier to remember and more entertaining. Humans also inadvertently change what they hear. Anyone who has played the childhood game of telephone can tell you just how a small circle of people can change something simple into something completely different. Add to that differences in translations from one language to another. In addition, we are thinking beings, we have differences of opinion and can read the same exact words and take from it a whole different meaning. Some are heavy handed and think that it’s their way or the highway. Those are the people I am often in opposition with. I am very strong willed and I know my path is the right one for me. I also fully believe that each person needs to find what is right for them, whether or not I agree with it. I like to ask questions because they help me learn and I hope they get other people thinking.

            Faith is really something that is personal, and up to each person to decide for themselves. Those that can’t think for themselves are those that can be deceived, or as P.T. Barnum would call them, a sucker. When I get spoon fed rhetoric spit back at me and get hatred back it is inevitable that the value of those words will go down. I do like learning about other views and looking at things from different angles. I’m secure in my faith that I don’t feel threatened when others spout different views. I do get frustrated, though, when it appears someone is simply spouting off hate speech because they either don’t understand or don’t want to understand, or both.

            You should understand, that I don’t hate Christians as a whole or the faith. I generally hate very few people. I think people are fascinating and I love learning about life and it’s interactions. I question the written word because it contradicts itself. I have run into a lot of hardliners that tell me I should take them literally. I find that hard to do when there is so much contradiction. I also run into a lot of people that tell me my path is wrong, to which I feel I am being attacked and have every right to defend myself. I was taught as a student of Kung Fu to attack the attack, and I tend to apply that to verbal spates sometimes as well. I try to stay rational and logical, but as I am human and vulnerable to my emotions, I do admit I get heated and passionate about some things too.

            I don’t think any person has a right to tell me the path I walk is wrong and I will be condemned for it. Just as I know many of you believe you have a personal relationship with Jesus and God, I believe I walk the path the Great Creator has set for me. I know the path is one of learning and understanding, and I do my best as a person to do so. I certainly don’t think I am perfect, and I certainly don’t think I have all the answers or all the knowledge. I would be pretty bored if I did. Understand, too, that I will ask questions, even if I share the same viewpoint. Asking questions allows us a chance to reflect and think and look at another view, even if it is not the one we agree with. I think if we stop and look at things from another angle, then perhaps we will gain understanding and maybe some day agree to disagree in a peaceful manner instead of headlong violence and propaganda, to which I think most religions, cultures, and governments are guilty. It is a symptom of our human condition.

        • Jay

          The inquisition was not Christian coal, but Pagan. Any serious student of historical Christianity knows that!

          • Altaica

            Jay,

            Where do you get the idea that the inquisition was pagan?

            Everything I have read and taught shows a Christian based authority condemning those that did not hold to their beliefs and burning them or some other form of horrible torture.

            I know the Roman Empire attacked and killed many Christians when it was an emerging religion and that was pagans killing Christians. But I have seen no evidence that the Christians were anything but the ones doling out the harsh punishment during the Inquisition. What are your sources?

          • http://marcum1@wildblue.net coal miner

            Jay

            Albert Einstein was born 1879 in Ulm. After graduation in 1900 he worked as a patent … Scientific pantheism – index: Elements of Pantheism, The only overview …

            http://www.pantheism.net/paul/einstein.htm

          • http://marcum1@wildblue.net coal miner

            Jay and Altaica

            Are Krishna, Buddha and Christ “real people” or myths? These godmen were not “historical” people who all “walked the earth” but mythical characters of the famous …

            http://www.truthbeknown.com/sunsofgod.htm

          • Jay

            Altaica: Where do you get the idea that the inquisition was pagan?

            Because the roman catholic church was pagan, and that, from its inception. Are you not aware of emperor Constantine? I would recommend that you apply yourself to some serious, and unbiased research, if that’s even possible. You continuously flap your gums, and try to lead everyone here to believe that you are the expert on historical Christianity, yet, you are completely ignorant of the most basic history of Christianity!

          • Altaica

            Jay:
            I am fully aware that the Catholic Church has taken a lot of pagan ideas, but it is still considered a Christian branch of religion. The current Pope has even been quoted as saying that it was the only branch of Christianity. The base definition that I work under is pagan means non-christian/ non-Abrahamic religion. Just because Christianity has taken a lot of pagan beliefs and stuck them in their religion doesn’t mean that they are not considered by the world and by themselves to be a Christian faith. In addition to this there was also a Protestant run Inquisition as well. I don’t claim to be an expert, I present what I have read and if you have different information I want to see it so I can read it to. Obviously you took my question a much different way then I had meant it. I honestly thought you may have read other books that had contrary proof and I wanted to read these books for myself.

            I am fully aware that Constantine was a pagan and a Christian. I am fully aware he followed the Roman Cult of Sol Invictus which was based on the Persian Sun God Mithras. I may not be an expert on Christianity, but I am very well educated on Roman History as it has always been one of my interests and the reason why I have taken years of Latin and do have several national awards hanging on my wall for them. I certainly don’t think I know it all, and I certainly have not read everything there is out there. If you have books that have other information I want to know about them so that I can get them from the library and read them.

            So please can you lay off the insults and actually point me to actual sources so I can read and learn and compare and contrast the sources?

        • Al Sieber

          c. miner, thank’s for the link.

    • FreedomFighter

      You swallowed cool-aide.

      Your premise is incorrect, leading to all the wrong conclusions.

      Stalin was an athiest.
      Hitler never killed jews his soldiers yelling “FOR JESUS WE KILL YOU”
      Colonialism was just that: colonialism

      As for blame of an act, the perps declared fully they did the deed for “Islam”. If the other 1.5 billion didnt agree, I have yet to see them protesting about it or even going on TV to denie its part of the religion.

      So please take the circular ill-logic and continue to wander aimlessly in the desert of stupidity.

      Laus Deo
      Semper Fi

      Laus Deo
      Semper Fi

    • Dan

      (1) How can you hold 1.5 Billion Muslims responsible for the act of few Muslims?

      SIMPLE: Radical Islam is an integral, inseparable part of Islam, making it impossible to discern which Muslims are which. With that in mind, the entire Religion is suspect.

      (2) As you know, there are many more historical examples where Christianity was involved in horrendous acts of mass murder of non-Christians. Does Hiroshima ring a bell? What about colonialism? Need I say more?

      ANSWER: If you claim, as in item (1), that we should not blame all Muslims for the actions of a few, then the same should hold true in not blaming all Christians for the acts of a few individuals.

      You, sir are a HYPOCRITE … But, there is hope for you (KEEP READING)

      Hypocrisy comes in all colors, ages, and sexes … Hypocrisy comes in all religious faiths, or those who have no religious faith at all … Hypocrisy is everywhere, every day, and never goes away . . .

      Jesus Christ is never hypocritical … Jesus Christ died for all colors, ages, and sexes … Jesus Christ is the answer for people of all religions and those who have no religious belief at all . . . Jesus Christ is everywhere, every day, and never goes away.

      God sent His Son, Jesus, to be born and live among humans as one of us, to suffer the things that we all go through, and then allowed us to crucify Him. He died on that Cross, was buried in a stone tomb, and rose from the dead on the third day. He did all of this to provide a way for sinful Man to have a means to be forgiven of Sin and to be worthy, in the eyes of God the Father, to have eternal life to enter into Heaven.

      Jesus paid the price for your sins and for mine. To claim this gift of salvation, forgiveness, and eternal life, you must willingly and genuinely accept Jesus as you Lord and Savior. This is a decision that only you can make.

      If you believe that you are a sinner, as is everyone, and you want the peace, love, and joy that comes from having a personal relationship with God, please open your heart and earnestly pray this prayer:

      Lord Jesus,

      I am a sinner and know that I deserve an eternity of punishment in Hell for my sins. I believe that You are the Son of God and that You came to Earth to pay the price for my Sins. I ask You to be my personal Lord and Savior and to come into my heart and completely fill me with your Holy Spirit. Forgive me my sins, cleanse me from all unrighteousness, and abide with me forever. Thank You , Lord Jesus for loving me and saving me !

      Amen

      If you sincerely prayed that prayer, you are now a Christian. The next thing you should do is to find a local Bible-believing, church to help you grow in your faith and to learn more about God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit. The prayer you prayed above is the start and now you should seek to learn more and grow stronger in your faith.

      Avoid so-called “churches” that try to “sugar-coat” what they tell their members. If the church you find does not talk about Sin and Hell or only talks in non-specific terms about Jesus, find a Bible-Believing church instead. Avoid “mega-churches”, as most of them are only in it for the money and tell people what they want to hear and/or preach the “prosperity gospel” to draw people in … Find a small, local church and start attending regularly !

      • asmithington

        Dan, AMEN. AMEN and AMEN!!!! I’m happy to see that you focus on important eternal issues of the soul and not sideline chats and frivolous arguments. Keep up the good work.

      • Altaica

        The story of Krishna is very similar, yet older than the story of Christ. Age of the first text mentioning Krishna is 400 B.C.E, which is the same as saying B.C. except without the religious connotation. Krishna is an incarnation of the God Vishnu, which to the monotheistic branch of Hindus is the one true god and creator of all. To general Hindu religion Vishnu is the chief God. In both accounts he is the most powerful of the gods and over all. Most Hindus will say that the God of the Abrahamic religions is the same as their God Vishnu. That they are just calling him by another name.

        How do you relate to this older tale and the idea that Christ may well just be an updated version of the Hindu tale? A couple stories I have read on Krishna vary, but one does have him being born in a manger, on december 25th, being crucified for the sins of the people, and having been visited by wise men at his birth. He also rose from the dead, and was born to a virgin. Having read that story I can certainly see how eastern religion may have affected the writers of the Bible. The similarities, even in name are just too close to ignore. I find it all very interesting. If one of Krishna’s stories was nearly exactly the same as Christs, I can see how the younger religion may have changed the names to fit their world view and use the story as well.

        • moonbeam

          “A couple stories I have read on Krishna vary, but one does have him being born in a manger, on december 25th”

          Wonder where Krishna got this info? The bible does not state anywhere that Christ was born on December 25th. This is man’s BS. Be careful what you read.

          • Altaica

            I was thinking that Christ’s story was written to match with the much older Indian story. The names sound similar. Similar story, Christianity did encounter and interact with the Hindu. I wonder if that was something discussed at the Council of Nicea.

        • Jay

          Altaica says:The story of Krishna is very similar, yet older than the story of Christ. Age of the first text mentioning Krishna is 400 B.C.E, which is the same as saying B.C. except without the religious connotation.

          Jay: That is incorrect, Altaica. The texts mentioning Krishna may be circa 400 B.C.E old, but such texts do not precede the texts regarding Jesus Christ. The book of Genesis, that first acquaints us with Christ, written by Moses, under inspiration of the Holy Spirit, during the forty years that the children of Israel wandered in the wilderness, was penned (1450 – 1410 B.C.). As you can see, much older then the texts about Krishna.

          Krishna is an incarnation of the God Vishnu, which to the monotheistic branch of Hindus is the one true god and creator of all. To general Hindu religion Vishnu is the chief God. In both accounts he is the most powerful of the gods and over all. Most Hindus will say that the God of the Abrahamic religions is the same as their God Vishnu. That they are just calling him by another name.

          How do you relate to this older tale and the idea that Christ may well just be an updated version of the Hindu tale? A couple stories I have read on Krishna vary, but one does have him being born in a manger, on december 25th, being crucified for the sins of the people, and having been visited by wise men at his birth. He also rose from the dead, and was born to a virgin. Having read that story I can certainly see how eastern religion may have affected the writers of the Bible. The similarities, even in name are just too close to ignore. I find it all very interesting. If one of Krishna’s stories was nearly exactly the same as Christs, I can see how the younger religion may have changed the names to fit their world view and use the story as well.

          Jay: Since the writings concerning Christ (1450 – 1410 B.C.) are much older, then the writings concerning Krishna,(400 B.C.E.) therefore, it is the Hindu religion that borrowed from the Old Testament! I’m rather surprise, Altaica, that you could be so ignorant!

          • Altaica

            Jay: That is incorrect, Altaica. The texts mentioning Krishna may be circa 400 B.C.E old, but such texts do not precede the texts regarding Jesus Christ. The book of Genesis, that first acquaints us with Christ, written by Moses, under inspiration of the Holy Spirit, during the forty years that the children of Israel wandered in the wilderness, was penned (1450 – 1410 B.C.). As you can see, much older then the texts about Krishna.

            What verses in Genesis does it mention Christ and his birth, death and everything? From my understanding the actually information on Jesus of Nazereth was from the New Testament and only prophecies of a messiah was in Genesis. I want to re-read this section for myself. I was under the idea that since the Jewish religion did not believe Jesus was the Messiah and Christianity did that the history of the Christian faith following Christ starts with the New Testament and the old testament refers only to a prophecy, not the actual person who would be the Christ and the actual details that followed.

            Has I have read a few times here there are those that believe Yeshua (I’m not all that family with this figure) was the only one who has fulfilled all the prophecies which would include the ones to Moses would it not?

            Please provide me with information, links, books, something so I may read it for myself.

          • http://marcum1@wildblue.net coal miner

            to Jay

            Another great pagan christ was Krishna 3 of India. In the sacred books of India it is … of the Golden Age ] [ Pagan Origins of the Christ Myth ] [ The Christ Myth ] [ …

            http://www.africawithin.com/jgjackson/jgjackson_pagan_origins_of_the_christ_myth3.htm

          • Jay

            My goodness Altaica, i thought you were the consummate expert on Christianity, and yet, you do not posses the basic knowledge. Let me assist you. The old testament is replete, one might even suggest, inundated, with prophecy concerning the coming Christ. And it all begins in the book of Genesis!

            What can we learn from Old Testament prophecy concerning the Messiah?

            It is a fact that Old Testament prophecy concerning the Messiah — the first coming and the ministry of the Messiah — were fulfilled to the letter in the New Testament. Just to name a few:

            He was the “seed of a woman” — prophecy: Genesis 3:15 and fulfilled: Galatians 4:4.

            He was a descendent of Abraham — prophecy: Genesis 12:3 and fulfilled Matthew 1:1.

            He was from the tribe of Judah – prophecy: Genesis 49:10 and fulfilled: Luke 3:33.

            He was the heir to the throne of David – prophecy: Isaiah 9:7 and fulfilled Luke 1:32-33.

            His birth place in Bethlehem – prophecy: Micah 5:2 and fulfilled: John 1:2, Luke 2:4-5, 7.

            Born of a virgin – prophecy: Isaiah 7:14 and fulfilled: Luke 1:26-27, 30-31.
            There are many others that we could cite, including the time of His birth, rejection by His own, a priest after the order of Melchizedek, betrayed by a friend for thirty pieces of silver, accused by false witnesses, crucified with malefactors, pierced through hands and feet, soldiers gambled for his clothing, no bones broken, His side pierced, buried with the rich and resurrected. There are 44 Old Testament prophecies that were fulfilled at the Messiah’s first coming.

            The fact that all of the Old Testament prophecy concerning the Messiah and His first coming has come true with such detail brings clarity to the issue of what is going to happen in the future. For there are prophecies concerning the Messiah that still await fulfillment. The biggest lesson for us to learn here is that God keeps His promises and just as the prophecies concerning the coming Messiah have been fulfilled in Christ Jesus’ first coming, so the rest of the messianic prophecies will be fulfilled in the second coming.

            Christ Himself brought our attention to that dual coming when He read from a prophecy found in Isaiah 61:1-2 (Recorded in Luke 4:18-19). “The Spirit of the Sovereign LORD is on Me, because the LORD has anointed Me to preach good news to the poor. He has sent Me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim freedom for the captives and release from darkness for the prisoners, to proclaim the year of the LORD’s favor and the day of vengeance of our God, to comfort all who mourn” (Isaiah 61:1-2, NIV).

            Jesus left off His reading of this passage in the middle of Isaiah 61:2. The first half of the prophecy found in the Isaiah 61:1-2 passage deals with the first coming of the Messiah and the presentation of His signs to Israel. However, the last half of that verse “and the day of vengeance of our God, to comfort all who mourn” deals with His second coming. In His first coming, the Messiah came as the suffering servant and offered His life a sacrifice to reconcile man to God but in the second coming the Messiah will come as the triumphant LORD and all His enemies will be made His footstool (Matthew 22:44).

            Therefore, the lesson for us to learn from Old Testament prophecy concerning the Messiah is that the LORD’S Word is true, God keeps His promises and not one “jot or one tittle” shall pass away until all will be fulfilled (Matthew 5:18).

            Were you not aware of this, Altaica?

          • Altaica

            Jay:
            These prophecies you presented do not mention Jesus Christ by name only gives a prophecy that an individual that met those criteria would come. I thought you knew verses solely in the old testament that had his name spelled out. From what I understand the new Testament, which seems to be the only place Christ is mentioned by name is indeed much younger. So what I remember is correlated by the verses you provided. There is not a direct naming of who the Messiah would be.

            From what I also understand Jews follow the Old Testament in their Torah and do not believe that Jesus was the messiah. So I have an honest Question for you, “Why not just give the name of the Messiah in the old Testament?” Certainly that would have kept the rift between the two faiths from happening, right?

          • Jana

            Altaica,
            No, you actually have to read with comprehension. It is called study. This is why Jay said it was spoken of in the Old Testament and fulfulled in the New Testament. Even in Psalms 22 this is a prophecy down to what even Jesus said on th cross;

            Ps 22:1
            2 My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring?
            KJV

            Ps 22:13-19
            3 They gaped upon me with their mouths, as a ravening and a roaring lion.
            14 I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint: my heart is like wax; it is melted in the midst of my bowels.
            15 My strength is dried up like a potsherd; and my tongue cleaveth to my jaws; and thou hast brought me into the dust of death.
            16 For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet.
            17 I may tell all my bones: they look and stare upon me.
            18 They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture.
            19 But be not thou far from me, O Lord: O my strength, haste thee to help me.
            KJV

    • Carl

      The better question is how can you not hold 1.5 billion muslims responsible when they will not condemn those acts, they will not even condemn any act of violence not even their own barbaric practices. Now for your other deranged comment about Christians killing the Jews and others, Hitler was not a Christian he was a darwinian and they (Christianity & darwinism) are far from compatible. However, I will confess that islam and darwinism are very compatible and will certainly get you to the same destination.

      • Altaica

        I really don’t understand why so many people deny the proven fact from Hitler’s own speeches and writings that he was a Catholic. He was a Christian, that is a fact. You can be Christian and into the occult and you can be a Christian and into Darwinism. They are not mutually exclusive. The evidence is there, one only need to look. Admitting Hitler was a Christian and dealing with the facts is not damning to the whole of the religion. Denying the truth does not make it go away. So many try and deny the holocaust even happened, but it is not going away. It happened. Hitler was a terrible man. Those that followed him did terrible things. It’s History, you can’t just change it because you don’t like it.

        • professor

          Hitler didn’t act like a Christian….! And, the bible doesn’t teach Christians to murder millions of people because they were thought to be inferior! Christians are known by the lives they lead, not by what what call themselves!

          When people want to denigrate Christianity, they conveniently leave out the way that this religion teaches its followers to live. Christianity teaches people to live their lives filled with love for others. Comparing Christianity to an evil cult that teaches hate and murder, as a way of life. is nonsensical! Try as you may, there is no way to justify the evil cult, by comparison.

          “The cult” is a scourge on this earth, and it teaches men to be evil. What else do you call men killing because of a difference in beliefs, the killing of their own wives and daughters, fathers forcing their sons to participate in murders of their mothers and sisters, and all the other gruesome teachings. The followers are entrenched in a barbaric lifestyle, a form of government that rules every aspect of the lives of its followers. It is a cult that demands the death of any that wants to leave it teachings..

          How dare anyone even contemplate the comparison of Christianity to this evil cult.. Nothing can justify these laws that are used to enforce submission of its followers, and the killing of those that will not follow. Political correctness is used to justify evil men, the things they do, and it tries to justify those that are complicit by their in action! All cult members follow the same teachings,and will be called upon as needed.

        • Jay

          Wrong again Altaica!

          The claim is sometimes made that Hitler was a Christian – a Roman Catholic until the day he died. In fact, Hitler rejected Christianity.

          The book Hitler’s Secret Conversations 1941-1944 published by Farrar, Straus and Young, Inc.first edition, 1953, contains definitive proof of Hitler’s real views. The book was published in Britain under the title, _Hitler’s Table Talk 1941-1944, which title was used for the Oxford University Press paperback edition in the United States.

          All of these are quotes from Adolf Hitler:

          Night of 11th-12th July, 1941:

          National Socialism and religion cannot exist together…. The heaviest blow that ever struck humanity was the coming of Christianity. Bolshevism is Christianity’s illegitimate child. Both are inventions of the Jew. The deliberate lie in the matter of religion was introduced into the world by Christianity…. Let it not be said that Christianity brought man the life of the soul, for that evolution was in the natural order of things. (p 6 & 7)

          10th October, 1941, midday:
          Christianity is a rebellion against natural law, a protest against nature. Taken to its logical extreme, Christianity would mean the systematic cultivation of the human failure. (p 43)

          14th October, 1941, midday:
          The best thing is to let Christianity die a natural death…. When understanding of the universe has become widespread… Christian doctrine will be convicted of absurdity…. Christianity has reached the peak of absurdity…. And that’s why someday its structure will collapse…. …the only way to get rid of

          Christianity is to allow it to die little by little…. Christianity the liar…. We’ll see to it that the Churches cannot spread abroad teachings in conflict with the interests of the State. (p 49-52)
          19th October, 1941, night:

          The reason why the ancient world was so pure, light and serene was that it knew nothing of the two great scourges: the pox and Christianity.
          21st October, 1941, midday:

          Originally, Christianity was merely an incarnation of Bolshevism, the destroyer…. The decisive falsification of Jesus’ doctrine was the work of St.Paul. He gave himself to this work… for the purposes of personal exploitation…. Didn’t the world see, carried on right into the Middle Ages, the same old system of martyrs, tortures, faggots? Of old, it was in the name of Christianity. Today, it’s in the name of Bolshevism. Yesterday the instigator was Saul: the instigator today, Mardochai. Saul was changed into St.Paul, and Mardochai into Karl Marx. By exterminating this pest, we shall do humanity a service of which our soldiers can have no idea. (p 63-65)
          13th December, 1941, midnight:

          Christianity is an invention of sick brains: one could imagine nothing more senseless, nor any more indecent way of turning the idea of the Godhead into a mockery…. …. When all is said, we have no reason to wish that the Italians and Spaniards should free themselves from the drug of Christianity. Let’s be the only people who are immunised against the disease. (p 118 & 119)
          14th December, 1941, midday:

          Kerrl, with noblest of intentions, wanted to attempt a synthesis between National Socialism and Christianity. I don’t believe the thing’s possible, and I see the obstacle in Christianity itself…. Pure Christianity– the Christianity of the catacombs– is concerned with translating Christian doctrine into facts. It leads quite simply to the annihilation of mankind. It is merely whole-hearted Bolshevism, under a tinsel of metaphysics. (p 119 & 120)
          9th April, 1942, dinner:

          There is something very unhealthy about Christianity (p 339)
          27th February, 1942, midday:

          It would always be disagreeable for me to go down to posterity as a man who made concessions in this field. I realize that man, in his imperfection, can commit innumerable errors– but to devote myself deliberately to errors, that is something I cannot do. I shall never come personally to terms with the Christian lie. Our epoch Uin the next 200 yearse will certainly see the end of the disease of Christianity…. My regret will have been that I couldn’t… behold .” (p 278)
          A reader asks,”Where did the quotes from Hitler’s Secret Conversations come from? How do we know that they are accurate?”

          Hitler’s Secret Conversations is a translation of a document called the “Bormann-Vermerke” or Borrman endorsements. They are a collection of hand written notes made by Martin Bormann who was Hitler’s personal secretary during the war. Bormann is known to have been an extraordinarily powerful figure in Nazi Germany and a notorious opponent of Christianity.

          There is no real dispute regarding the authenticity of these notes. They are what Borrman wrote. They are published in the original German in Adolf Hitler, Monologe im Führerhauptquartier 1941-1944. published by Orbis Verlag, Hamburg, Approved Special Edition in 2000.

          The quotes are disputed by some because Hitler is often quoted as publically professing to be a Christian. The simplest reconciliation of this seeming contradiction is that Hitler lied to gain the support of the German people, 90% of whom where professing Christians.

          What follows is an excerpt from “Inside the Third Reich” by Hitler’s chief architect and minister of Armaments, Albert Speer. It illuminates how Hitler “adapted his remarks to his surroundings”, thus making himself a friend of the church when it was convenient. It is also another independent witness to Hitler’s true feeling regarding Christianity — it was meek and flabby, Germany would have been better off if Islam had conquered Europe after the battle of Tours, and that Germany had the misfortune of having the wrong religion.

          From Inside the Third Reich, Memiors by Albert Speer, Translated from the German by Richard and Clara Winston, Avon Publishers, 1970:

          http://www.answers.org/apologetics/Hitquote.html

          • Kate8

            Good work, Jay. You have more patience than I with the attempted liberal misinformation against Christianity.

            Had Hitler been Christian, he wouldn’t have exterminated over 11million Christians. Yet, he did.

            Don’t forget others who claim to be Christian, yet show no evidence of it: Bill Clinton, Nancy Pelosi, Tony Blair, Rick Warren, Jeremiah Wright and, of course, Barack Obama. To name only a few.

          • Dan az

            Jay
            You bookworm,Is there nothing you haven’t read yet? :) ;)

          • Jana

            Altaica,

            On another site where you were asking questions about Christianity, you stated:

            “********I’m here to learn, so I want to see what kind of information you all can share. I have a document here I put everything in so I can mull it over. So let’s see what you got, information please, not blanket insults.*************”

            After reading your posts on this site, all I see is this statement is a lie.

            You aren’t here to learn, you are here to disrupt. I took you at your word, but I have seen that your word has no value. What are you a Kenite?

          • Jay

            Well that’s exactly right Kate, anybody can wear the Christian label, for whatever purpose, as i could claim to be a doctor. But wouldn’t you want to see my credentials first, before you except my diagnoses? And it is here, that the anti-Christian bashers give themselves away. They will question, and demand proof for anything and everything, but, when someone tells them they are Christian, critical thinking, and questioning, go out the window! But then again, how could they possibly confirm, who is, and who is not, a Christian? This is of course, is beyond their capability!

          • Jay

            Dan, there is a ton of material i would like to read. Unfortunately, i can’t always find the time. Perhaps when i retire i should have plenty of time to catch up on the back-log!

          • Altaica

            professor says:
            September 7, 2011 at 5:30 pm
            “Hitler didn’t act like a Christian….! And, the bible doesn’t teach Christians to murder millions of people because they were thought to be inferior! Christians are known by the lives they lead, not by what what call themselves!”

            So we have to wait for history to prove whether or not someone lived the life of a Christian even if they profess to be so? I know a lot of people in my life that say they are Christian but then act all hateful and bigoted. So they aren’t real Christians? Yet there are some denominations that would consider these good Christians. So what I need is a universal checklist that works for all denominations. So tell me professor, are all the Popes that condoned the burning and torture of “heretics” and “witches” not real Christians? If the religious leaders are not real Christians then what? Can you see where the problems arise from?

            Jay:
            So in other words Hitler was a hypocrite and a politician using whatever tools he could to move the masses the way he wanted. Sounds familiar.

            I’ll have to see if my library has that book. I’ve never seen that one.

            Jana
            “After reading your posts on this site, all I see is this statement is a lie.
            You aren’t here to learn, you are here to disrupt. I took you at your word, but I have seen that your word has no value. What are you a Kenite?”

            So asking questions to get answers and asking for evidence are not ways to learn? Is anything contrary to your opinion of the world “disruptive?” I’m sorry that asking questions to get answers and make people think is disruptive to you. But thinking has not become illegal yet so I’m going to enjoy it while I can.
            I’ve learned a lot from my questioning and reading, maybe not what you want me to learn, but I can think for myself and form my own views. Apparently some people don’t like that I am not a sheep. Sorry lady, my totems include Bear, Wolf, Hawk and Lynx, they are certainly not sheep. I still have a right to free speech just like you and I am going to use it, whether you like it or not. You don’t know me, or the things I have in notes and have been reading and learning, so you cannot judge. I have certainly learned a lot about you in just the short little post you have here. You made sweeping judgments based on one post. You do not provide facts or evidence in responding to me. You call me a liar when I am speaking what I understand to be the truth. You have provided insults and no concrete information for me to even look at. If you’re going to throw insults at least put some sort of source information and some sort of substance in your post. Just because you do not value my words, does not mean there are not others here that do. I find your words to hold little to no value. All you have done is called me some sort of name I am sure it is meant to be a racial slur that holds no meaning to me. I have never heard the term Kenite before, so I looked it up. The answer is no. I trace my ancestry to the Native Americans and I do not follow Cain. What other definitions do you have? Those are what I found with a quick search. I want something from non-biblical sources please.

            Jay and Kate8:
            Maybe you guys can get together with the professor and come up with a comprehensive checklist of how to tell the difference between someone who says they are a Christian and Someone who is really a Christian. Since religious faith does not require a degree to follow, and anyone can be of any faith there is no paper or testing process in place. We are forced to take each person who says they follow the Christian faith at face value as followers. If we have a checklist, and maybe some sort of credentials for each faith then maybe there would be a little less confusion. I can’t see how everyone lives the entirety of their lives, I have to take what they tell me about their faith as truth.

          • Jay

            Altaica: Since religious faith does not require a degree to follow, and anyone can be of any faith there is no paper or testing process in place. We are forced to take each person who says they follow the Christian faith at face value as followers. If we have a checklist, and maybe some sort of credentials for each faith then maybe there would be a little less confusion. I can’t see how everyone lives the entirety of their lives, I have to take what they tell me about their faith as truth.

            Well Altaica, then i’m the pope’s uncle, and i just happen to have a bridge for sale. Will that be cash, or check, that you will be sending in the mail?

          • Jana

            Altaica,
            You are so long winded, but most people who have nothing to say are.
            Only an idiot would think that calling someone a Kenite would be considered racist.
            You make yourself appear to not want to learn because you talk like you know it all. As Jay has pointed out to you, you obviously DON’T.!!!

      • eddie47d

        There are American Muslims who have condemned the acts of other Muslims.(probably not enough). Yet Germany was indeed a Christian nation and the majority Christians did little to stop the terror acts that Hitler committed. Why don’t Muslims denounce these terrorist acts? As you have noticed lately with all the rebellions in the Arab world they have a hard enough time denouncing their own governments. Their voices have been silenced for years with the threat of death by the Mubarak’s and Assad’s.They are arrested,beaten and even killed by their government masters as proven in Syria. Yet you want them to speak out about 19 hijackers which would bring certain death upon them. We take freedom and free speech for granted and they have had neither. Either help them appreciate America or get out of their lands and then they might accept the evil that was perpetrated on 9/11.

    • http://marcum1@wildblue.net coal miner

      Sam
      You will find this interesting.

      Christian missionaries often work in partnership with the CIA, with the US government, and with wealthy corporations to subvert the religion, the culture, the …

      http://www.mamiwata.com/christian_atrocities.html

    • Kristen

      You are right, but the holocost was not done by christians. Christians were also killed during the holocost. Hitler and his followers were athiests, they were the gods of the people.

      If Hiroshima did not happen, America would be speaking Japanese right now or some other country that thought we were not ballsy enough to fight back.

      Christians did do a lot of mass killing back in the day. Like what the Catholics did to the South Americans and buring their books. I do not totally disagree with you. I do have some friends that are muslims that I cannot see doing an act like 9/11. I am christian and I most certainly cannot see myself killing people because they did not believe what I believe.

  • jamal raheem

    as a black american and a muslim ,i resent your ignorant rants. maybe you should leave muslim people alone,maybe you should understand that you offend 1.5 billion people, and finally you racist bastard should drop the god complex,trust me you are not god.you and the rest of american people need more education,if you want to see how dumb this country is watch an episode of jay leno’s jay walking(absolutley pathetic).

    • George E.

      Jamal,

      If America is such a terrible place, why do you live here?

      • eyeswideopen

        George E. probably for the same reasons you do! He has the same right to not like what this country is becoming and voiced an opinion just like the radical conservatives do. Why do you all live here?

      • Nadzieja Batki

        His is the case of a full stomach and an empty brain.

        • Nadzieja Batki

          My reply is to Jamal R.. Yours is a case of a full stomach and a empty brain.

      • Karolyn

        Because he’s an American? The kind of American you would like to see gone because he is not the same as you!

        • Dan az

          Karolyn
          I would like to see anyone that has actually read the koran say that they are not for killing the infidels.If he knew what the islamist think about blacks he wouldn’t be a muslim.Of course you think that you don’t have to follow it word for word right?In that case your not a muslim!And you will be killed right along side the rest of us.

          • Karolyn

            Obviously, not all Muslims think the same or follow the Koran the same just as for Christians, and no one can tell anyone that they are not who or what they say they are.

          • Kate8

            Dan az – I have read from former Muslims that the Koran translations into English (and other languages,too) are not the same as the Arabic version, which is much more violent in its calls for slaughter.

            This is meant for no other reason than to deceive us as to what Islam is really about. It’s all part of the promotion of the Islamic cause.

          • Jay

            Kate and Dan, if you truly wish to know what exactly is Islam, you should acquaint yourselves with ex-Muslim Scholar, turned Christian, Sam Soloman! Here’s a u-tube link.

            http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mxjpqOOaxdQ

    • Dagney

      Jamal, see my note above. Individuals each have a choice. That is what is great about America! However, you have to admit that since the 1970′s, people who claim the Muslim religion have committed unspeakable acts. Is it the religion’s fault? No. The religion is a static belief system. People who believe in it are at fault. So, unfortunately, Muslims, as a group will be lumped in with what we most see about the religion and that is ACTS OF TERRORISM. You want to change that? Stand up against the Terrorism! Otherwise, your religion will continue to be viewed as backward and animalistic.

    • asmithington

      Islam is a false religion, with a false book, based on the lunatic, pedophile, false prophet Mohamad. Jesus said, HE is the WAY, the Truth and the LIFE-No one can come to the Father, except through/by Him (John 16:6). I pray that you will the the light before it’s too late my friend!

      • asmithington

        Sorry, John 14:6….The Word of GOD

      • Karolyn

        God is on all peoples’ sides. Who are YOU to denounce someone else’s religion?

        • Kate8

          karolyn – But, not everyone is on His side.

          He says, “turn away from Me and I will turn away from you”.

          And “Return to me, and I will heal your land.”

          • Karolyn

            That may be what it says in the Bible, but it does not make it true. Seriously, how can anyone say in all honesty that one book is truer than another? That one religion is more righteous than another?

          • Kate8

            karolyn – Well, in your world, it makes no difference, as those who yell, “Allahu akbar!” are equal to Mother Theresa.

            My God honors those who honor Him, and honor life, love, freedom, peace, forgiveness, and adherence to righteous and moral behavior.

            You, apparently, equate those who practice otherwise as being superior and more evolved, and as having your god’s approval.

          • Dan az

            Kate :) :)

          • Karolyn

            Kate – Don’t put words in my mouth.

          • Kate8

            karolyn – LOL. I don’t have to. You’ve said as much, many times, in your posts.

      • Altaica

        The same can be said about Christianity. In fact some do. I don’t care what you believe, until you start shoving it down my throat and telling me my path is wrong because it is different than yours. There are Jews that say Christianity follows a false book and a false messiah. The Islams say the Christians are wrong and follow a false book and false god. The Christians say that everyone else is wrong. Really if you look at the history of the 3 religions, Christianity and Islam are both heresies of Judeism that have persisted and grown.

        What is right for you is not right for someone else and you have no right to judge that. Is it not your book that says judge lest not ye be judged? Then some people get mad because others defend ourselves. I’m sorry but a text written by men about a god is not concrete proof that your way is the only true path. I have heard one religion say many paths one god. Can you not accept the possibility that there are more ways then yours to get to enlightenment? That is really quite Prideful…is Pride not one of your deadly sins? And the hate you spew in your words, is that not Wrath?

        Stop and think for a moment and re-read what you wrote. Insert Christianity into the equation and take out Islam. How does it feel when you are on the receiving end? Is that how you want to be treated? How you want to live? Professing hate and ignorance against all those you do not truly understand?

        Why do I hear self professed Christians preaching hate and non-acceptance, when Jesus said to Love thy neighbor as thyself? Do you hate yourself so much you must project on what you don’t know and don’t understand.

        • Kate8

          Altaica – Christians have always been on the receiving end of such hatred as yours. It’s rapidly turning to outright persecution, just as our Lord told us it would.

          I don’t know any Christians who practice hate. You liberals seem to equate Christians refusal to be “inclusive” as hate.

          Christians can be uncompromising in their faith without being hateful toward others. You just can’t stand that we refuse to come over to your way of thinking.

          You are the one expressing hatred and intolerance. Perhaps you need to look at how YOU aren’t practicing what you preach.

          • Karolyn

            Now this is interesting, because I don’t see hate in any of Altaica’s posts.

          • Kate8

            Really, karolyn? Because Altaica has been hurling nasty comments toward Christians for some time now on these threads. Accusing Christians of hate is bad enough.

            Funny how you libs are so one-sided.

          • Altaica

            Kate8

            For starters, I’m not a Liberal. I’m a Middle of the Road Independent. I believe in the Constitution, the right to bear arms, free speech etc. I also believe that prisons need to be reformed and more strict, they should suck and the death penalty for severely violent offenders. I think rapists and child molesters should be in general population not in protective segregation from other prisoners.
            My views are neither strictly one side or the other, therefore I do not fit into one of your neat little boxes.

            I’m sorry you feel my questioning of your faith and the presentation of that which I have read in various history books as hate. It is certainly not my intent. My intent is to get people to think and to look at different things in different light and to learn. I do admit I have a knee jerk reaction any time that someone comes and says I will be damned because I do not follow the Christian faith. People like the”Real”bob set a pretty poor example of love and acceptance. I don’t hate the Christians as a whole, I hate the people that try and ram their beliefs down my throat and try and make me choke on them. That is when I bring out the historical examples and ask honest questions. Surely those who believe they have all the answers should be able to provide them right? I came from the Christian Faith. I have a Christian Shaman for a teacher, my father is a minister and a good number of my friends are Christians. They see my questions as just that. When you profess that the Christian way is the only way I must question, I must seek answers. I ask questions even when I agree with the person, because I am a seeker. I watch reactions, I read answers, I study.

            Honestly I have seen a lot of hate thrown towards other religions by those here that profess their Christianity. It is very easy to act in kind when the door is opened. I have also received a lot of that hate pushed onto me because of my views and because I will defend even those I don’t agree with.

            Hate is very easy, love is harder. If all followed Do unto others that you would have done unto yourself the world would indeed be a very different place. Of course, naturally if someone keeps throwing slander I am going to eventually act in kind. I’m a human and privy to emotions like everyone here. As much as I would prefer to stay completely and totally coldly logical, I can’t. Like so many of the other posters here, it is clear that we all have our own beliefs and our own emotions and triggers. Judge lest not ye be judged and all that. There’s also the one about removing the beam from the eye.

            Just consider my constant seeking and questioning as a test of your faith and you should be good. I apologize if I have made you feel I am a hateful person and I hate all of Christianity. That is not my intent and not the case. I am merely a young seeker walking a path that is my own and learning about the other ones I see. I do my best to leave judgments and emotion from my statements, but I am fallible, I am human after all. I apologize in advance for I am a passionate soul and will no doubt ask or say things that may be construed not as I intended.

            To Err is Human…

          • Kate8

            Altaica – I appreciate your response.

            You must understand that the vitriol and even persecutiaon against Christians is increasing. Here on this (conservative) site alone, there are more and more progressive posters who constantly turn the issues into Christian bashing, regardless of the subject up for comment.

            This trend is truly alarming, because it is clearly part of the Leftist agenda to target Christians everywhere. We know where this is leading, yet so many (whether they understand what they are doing or not) are playing right into the games of the PTB.

            You must understand, I have been passionate about seeking Truth all my life. I’ve gone down many roads. I’ve studied, to some degree, all the world’s major religions and many minor ones. My main interest was in esoterica, not dogma, including Christian esoterica. Religion is not my thing, but I do seek to know God. I have never sought to justify any particular system, but only to find my own connection to God. I resonate with the path of Yeshua, and I believe that the Scriptures hold Truth, though it is veiled. It even states that, to those who do not embody the Holy Spirit, it reads as so much foolishness…

            You said that you are young. I understand what you are doing, because I’ve been there. I’ve even gone through aversion and hostility toward Christianity. I don’t believe that God demands that we blindly accept things we’re taught. After all, he gave us intelligence. I have never checked my brains in at the door of any faith. He placed within us the desire to know Him, free of human shackles and distortions.

            At some point, though, we reassess all that we’ve learned, and realize that “belief” is the obstacle, not the solution. When we clear our beings of beliefs, and ask for Truth to be revealed to us, we begin to experience a whole new perspective. We begin to see the deception that is all around us, that NOTHING is as it seems.

            Existence on Earth is a journey. We fight wars over things that aren’t real, except in the minds of deluded men and evil puppetmasters. But then, they are part of the game, too. That is what my reason for being here is: to share with other seekers of truth, that we might assist one another in breaking through the illusions that enslave us.

            It is all about our evolution of consciousness. That we tear at one another over “beliefs”; that we cause so much pain; that we are willing to slaughter our fellow man because things beyond our control have manipulated our minds to their own ends…

            It’s only when we realize that ideologies are not real except in our own minds, and the the real answer is learning to (re)align with the Supreme Love that created and sustains the cosmos…which translates into love for all…while still navigating this existence, albeit from a whole new perspective…

            Hate is a word that the Left has overused to control the discussion. It is a tactic. It is thrown around altogether too much, and I try to refrain from using it…but it seems to be all that some understand, so my purpose is a taste of their own medicine.

            But, sadly, they only miss the point, and the mindless ideological battles continue.

        • professor

          Altaica…

          Christians are not compelled to embrace that which is evil!

          If you have a difficult time defining evil, read the Koran. Search out information on Islam and Sharia Law. Maybe you would like to replace your freedom… for decapitating heads, slicing off hands, stoning of women, mutilation of little girls, and pedophilia…..I have no trouble defining evil!

          The lines between good and evil have not “blurred” for most of us..

          • Kate8

            Very well said, professor.

            We have clear understanding of what is right and what is wrong. We don’t suffer from progressive relativism, as promoted by communists.

          • Altaica

            Actually I am quite familiar with Sharia Law and I think it is a terrible and cruel system. I am totally opposed to it and feel it should not be allowed in this country period as it violates our own Constitutional rights.

            It is clear the thoughts and ideas I was trying to present were totally missed. I was trying to compare that most religions call other religions false and wrong. I don’t have to agree with what their customs allow to demonstrate that they say the same thing and so do other religions.

    • AzPatriot

      ROTFLMAO And once again we have another “peace” loving muslim ranting against some perceived insult to their “wannabe” religion. Kill the infidels! is taught in the Koran not the Bible. As soon as you imbeciles start acting like citizens of the world instead of lowlife terrorists we will start respecting your religion. Until that time comes crawl back under that rock you slithered out from.

      • eyeswideopen

        AzPatriot,please name another religion other than Chrisitianity that you respect.

      • JeffH

        AzPatriot, well said and spot on!

        Oh, eyes…FYI…AzPatriot never mentioned a thing about “christianity” in his comment…try again!

        • eyeswideopen

          Jeffie, I was asking him a question. Can’t you read?

          • JeffH

            eyes, DUH! you falsely implied that he only respected “christianity” in your question and I merely pointed out that he didn’t mention “christianity” at all…can you comprehend that?

          • Jay

            Jeff, I think the only one’s expressing hate towards religion, and in particular Christianity, are eyes, Altaica, eddie, and coal. They point their self-rightious fingers at Christianity, and yet, nothing but hate-speech pours out of their mouths! But, as the saying goes; “What you are, is what you see”! If one is full of hate, then they perceive everyone else as being full of hate. Unfortunately, they can’t see that! Sad…

          • Kate8

            Jay – Yes. It’s very sad.

            Yeshua told us we would be hated for His Name’s sake, and that we would be persecuted and even put to death.

            Satan is “the accuser” of God’s people. Yet, it is he who is most guilty, who has no love in him. He seeks only to decieve and corrupt, and turn everyone against God’s Ways and God’s Laws.

            We all make our choices, and will be held accountable for them. Probably sooner than we think.

          • JeffH

            Jay, you got it right. As for coal…well, a satanist is what come to mind. The rest are just hypocrits.

          • Karolyn

            Jay – Where do you see hate? For one thing, eddie has said before that he is a Christian. I know Altaica is not, but I do not see her being hateful – just trying to make points. The only one hateful, who you didn’t mention is Robert Smith. I really don’t understand? I mean really. How can you not see the hate in anyone else’s posts but those who have opposing views to yours? I don’t think I say anything hateful, yet I have been branded that way. The only one who gets me close to being hateful is therealbob, and he is about as hateful as they come. Is it hate? Sometimes it is arrogance coming from either “side.” All I know is that I hate no one, never have, never will. And I am glad that you didn’t include me in your little list. (Or did you just forget me?) :-)

          • eyeswideopen

            JeffH, I didn’t imply anything, as usual you jump to conclusions and indict, making the assumption that you are the all knowing interpreter of peoples intensions. It is a heavy load you carry being the one who must decide what people really mean when they make a statement or ask a question. Where did you get that talent from?

          • Altaica

            Jay-
            “Jeff, I think the only one’s expressing hate towards religion, and in particular Christianity, are eyes, Altaica, eddie, and coal. They point their self-rightious fingers at Christianity, and yet, nothing but hate-speech pours out of their mouths! But, as the saying goes; “What you are, is what you see”! If one is full of hate, then they perceive everyone else as being full of hate. Unfortunately, they can’t see that! Sad…”

            Take that beam from your eye Jay. I don’t hate religion or Christianity. The desire to question and learn is not synonymous with hate. It has certainly never been my intent, though I am sure I am guilty of slipping here and there like everyone else here that flings insults. You know why Christianity often comes up? It’s because it is usually dredged up by Christian rhetoric being spouted for a lot of things. When things like that pop up how can you not expect for others with different views to express them? Also, how does professing points contrary to one’s beliefs constitute hate? How does bringing up facts presented in History come off as hate? It is ok for therealbob to call me and others all sorts of hateful things, but you don’t mention him at all. How is that acceptable? Why don’t you point out those of the “moral majority” who have been guilty of hate speech on this very board? I’m sure my harsh words will come off as hate, since speaking what I see and have experienced seems to be classified as such to many people here. It seems a lot of what I write is misconstrued or taken out of context. What I see here is one of you, who are Christian, often makes a blanket statement, for example, this boards topic has been Islam and the Muslim religion. You lumped all of them into one box even though not all muslims believe the same and there are, like Christianity, many denominations. So people try to put you into their shoes and you call it hate speech. Well that is the same thing you are doing when you lump all Muslims in one category. Yes, there are evil and cruel muslims, yes there are those that teach that killing “infidels” is right, but this is not true of all just as it is true that not all Christians agree on their belief system. The fact that you view most of my writings and examples as hate shows that you have missed the entirety and intent of the majority of my posts. It is clear that there are some who do not like to walk a mile in another’s shoes.

          • Kate8

            Altaica – You are not here to make others “think”, as you said earlier. You are here to sound off about your own discomfort.

            Why is it necessary to try to control what others think or believe at all? Why is it important to you that they see things from your perspective? Are you willing to see things from theirs?

            Your views are no more valid than another’s. We are all mired in chaos. What we learn in life depends on where we are willing to go, on just how determined we are to cut through the veils of illusion that comprise manifest existence…And there are many who have no interest in anything beyond appearances. Probably most. But then, that is their choice, as well.

            If it were not for the fact that an agenda is at play here, there would be no need for all this hostile rhetoric being hurled at one another. Conservatives have been placed on the defensive, as Progressives are now in control, and many of us are seeing the game at play and are no longer buying what they’re are selling. But we also see the hostility escalating, know what’s afoot, and understand history.

            Those who are without agenda will be willing to awaken from this nightmare, if presented with the truth. If they are not, then that is a statement, also.

          • Altaica

            “Kate8 says:
            September 8, 2011 at 10:55 am
            Altaica – You are not here to make others “think”, as you said earlier. You are here to sound off about your own discomfort.”

            I had hoped that raising questions would get people to think and also give me some information in which to further my research. I didn’t really think I was in a state of discomfort but I may be. I do want to learn and understand and that’s the truth. And I’m trying to learn more about the messed up world of politics. Often, even the seemingly most straight forward things somehow end up in religious debate and not always civil. I do get frustrated sometimes. I admit that, I know I’m not perfect.

            “Why is it necessary to try to control what others think or believe at all? Why is it important to you that they see things from your perspective? Are you willing to see things from theirs?”

            It’s not necessary to control what people think and believe. I feel each person does have a right to their own beliefs. I learn by asking and looking at the responses. I am willing to look at things from other sides. That’s why I ask for sources and I do look at things posted by both sides. There are many veils that do hide the truth and this is one of the tools I have to try and look behind them. I don’t actually want to hurt anyone and I certainly have no aspirations to destroy religion. I do believe that freedom of religion means every religion, so long as you do not take away the rights and lives of others. I guess the importance really shouldn’t matter, but I would like the same that others ask for in trying to at understand. I’m trying, I want to understand. I know it’s not always the easiest thing to do.

            “Your views are no more valid than another’s. We are all mired in chaos. What we learn in life depends on where we are willing to go, on just how determined we are to cut through the veils of illusion that comprise manifest existence…And there are many who have no interest in anything beyond appearances. Probably most. But then, that is their choice, as well.”

            You do have a point. Our world is a mess and so many get stuck at just the surface level. Not everyone wants to see more than that either. I’m trying to work past that. Of course everyone thinks their views are valid because they are part of their beliefs and we all want to share them. I’ve never been in the box because I do like to ask difficult questions because I want to hear the different view points. I think the big hang up that happens is when we categorize thoughts and ideas with who is right and who is wrong and start pointing fingers. Then it degenerates. Does that make sense?

            “If it were not for the fact that an agenda is at play here, there would be no need for all this hostile rhetoric being hurled at one another. Conservatives have been placed on the defensive, as Progressives are now in control, and many of us are seeing the game at play and are no longer buying what they’re are selling. But we also see the hostility escalating, know what’s afoot, and understand history.”

            I think our country is in a big mess and as the people of the nation we need to learn and take care of ourselves. Too much money spent on things that only end up hurting our people. Programs that are worse then what we had and more expensive. I still have a lot to learn about politics and the games going on, but what I do know is there is so much corruption I feel like we need to slice the big tumor off and get going on some real treatment.

            “Those who are without agenda will be willing to awaken from this nightmare, if presented with the truth. If they are not, then that is a statement, also.”

            They are pretty good at hiding the back door dealings. Even our laws are written with so much convoluted thought and wording that most people don’t understand them. Then there are laws that they just pass and hide and you don’t find out about them until it is too late. The world is crazy and one big frustrating, confusing mess.

    • FreedomFighter

      Jamal, Islam is a global religious disease causing the death of millions.

      “The global war on Christianity by Islam is so massive in size and scope that it is virtually impossible to describe without trivializing it. Inspired by Muslim Brotherhood ideology and fueled by billions of Wahhabi petrodollars, the religious cleansing of Christians from the Muslim world is continuing at a break-neck pace, as the following recent examples demonstrate.”

      http://www.americanthinker.com/2007/07/islams_global_war_against_chri.html

      You worhship a demon, a false god.

      Laus Deo
      Semper Fi

      • eyeswideopen

        FreedomFighter, they were not attacking our religion, or they would have bombed churches. They were attacking America, not an individual groups. They hate what we are doing in their countries. We butt into other countries business and wonder why they hate us. Do you not remember, we were for Iran, then against Iran, for Iraq then against Iraq, and the examples go on and on and on. Why don’t we get out of other countries business and stop the BIG BROTHER mantra from being our demise?

    • DaveH

      Jamal,
      Sadly you had a point, but then you went on to display your own ignorant prejudices first by calling John a racist. Where did that come from? Then you lumped all Americans into the “dumb” category from the experience of a few selected individuals caught on tape by Jay Leno.
      If you want to educate people against pre-judgement, Jamal, then you need to start with yourself and set people an example.

      • Sheldon

        DaveH… when you’re right… you’re right. Well said.

      • JeffH

        :)

      • DaveH

        Jamal might have hit on something, though, lol:
        http://www.youtube.com/user/mackenziefegan

        • JeffH

          Why does none of that video surprise me anymore?

    • Altaica

      I’d like to learn more about it. One of my friends that moved here from Kenya is Muslim and one of the nicest people I know.

      • Palin12

        Is his name Barack?

        • Altaica

          No. Nice dig but I think our President is an utter failure and needs to be out of office.

    • moonbeam

      I remember learning years ago that the Islamic faith does not recognize American Muslims.

      If you follow the Quran, then you follow Mohammed, a carnal man. Is that where you place your trust, in man (as a species)? If so, you must suffer from disappointment on a daily basis.

      Tell us, when you find yourself in dire trouble, who do you call out to for help? Mohammed or God? Oh God please help me! Sound familiar?

    • professor

      And you and your cult, my friend, are not compatible with this Republic or the freedom-loving people that made this country great! If you are a true follower, you have no freedom, and you resent those that do.

      You want to justify your violence and hate, by claiming to be muslim. It gives you an excuse…and when called, you will be one of the first, on the streets, attacking the people you hate! That can’t feel good, and you are right, your cult is a good vehicle to promote your hate.

      • professor

        This comment was in response to “jamal.”

    • Jay

      jamal, the rift, and the animosity between Muslims, Jews, and Christians, was invented by Albert Pike, and is now being perpetrated by the NWO illuminati, with the goal that the three religions should destroy one-another. Educate, and acquaint yourself with the writings of Albert Pike, and the manipulations of the illuminati!

      “The Third World War must be fomented by taking advantage of the differences caused by the “agentur” of the “Illuminati” between the political Zionists and the leaders of Islamic World. The war must be conducted in such a way that Islam (the Moslem Arabic World) and political Zionism (the State of Israel) mutually destroy each other. Meanwhile the other nations, once more divided on this issue will be constrained to fight to the point of complete physical, moral, spiritual and economical exhaustion…

      We shall unleash the Nihilists and the atheists, and we shall provoke a formidable social cataclysm which in all its horror will show clearly to the nations the effect of absolute atheism, origin of savagery and of the most bloody turmoil.

      Then everywhere, the citizens, obliged to defend themselves against the world minority of revolutionaries, will exterminate those destroyers of civilization, and the multitude, disillusioned with Christianity, whose deistic spirits will from that moment be without compass or direction, anxious for an ideal, but without knowing where to render its adoration, will receive the true light through the universal manifestation of the pure doctrine of Lucifer, brought finally out in the public view.

      This manifestation will result from the general reactionary movement which will follow the destruction of Christianity and atheism, both conquered and exterminated at the same time.”

      http://www.threeworldwars.com/albert-pike2.htm

      • Kate8

        Jay – Animosity between Jews (and Christians, by extension) and Muslims dates back to Ishmael and then Esau, as you know.

        Pike merely exploited this unhealed wound.

        • Jay

          This is true Kate, however, most would not know that. I thought it best to help them connect from a more recent history. From there, they could more easily make additional connections, and ultimately, to the original cause of the conflict. I suppose you could call it, chunking, or piece-meal!

  • Paul

    Years ago in the run-up to the Kuwait war, a Lebanese Christian said to me that of course there would be war: it would be an international advertisment for the American armament industry. And sure enough, a few months after that brief military encounter a small squib in our newspaper announced that US arms sales to foreign governments were way up.

    We cannot be a free people when, irrespective of the party in power, the military-industrial complex, big-pharma and people and international corporations with gigantic-bucks are the shadow government.

    • Al Sieber

      Paul, I agree. continuous wars, war is peace, slavery is freedom. we’ll never know what is really going on because there are no real journalists or news anymore, just propaganda news. according to Homeland Security the new terrorists are middle age white men and Ron Paul supporters etc. welcome to the new snitch society where you get paid for turning your neighbor in.

      • DaveH

        Scary, isn’t it Al?

        • Al Sieber

          Yes it is Dave.

          • Dan az

            Hey Al
            Are you digging bunkers or for gold? :) I hear there may be a bounty on you! ;) :)

          • Al Sieber

            Both Dan.

      • DaveH

        I just had a little run-in myself with the new “smart” meters that APS is trying to install around my neighborhood. I got their notice of installation and, when I called to tell them not to install their surveillance device on my house, their representative told me there was no opt-out procedure in place. I told her “too bad, you are breaking the law installing a surveillance device on my house, and you aren’t going to do it”. She then told me that meter was their property and they could change it any time they want. You can imagine my blood pressure going up. We had a pretty vehement exchange for about 5 minutes. I was struck by the boldness of her statements. It was as if I was dealing with the Government. Afterwards I stuck too tags on the meter box that I copied from this website:
        http://www.refusesmartmeter.com/
        I also mailed them a refusal letter by certified mail.
        Boycott Arizona Public Service! I really can’t though, as they are our only provider thanks to the monopoly granted them by Government. The same Government that won’t allow ATT & T-Mobile to merge for “anti-trust” reasons. Monopolies are okay if Government creates them. Sure.
        Vote Libertarian!

        • eyeswideopen

          DaveH, you are living in a Republican controlled state, you get what you voted for. How’s that working for you?

          • DaveH

            Crony Capitalism is practiced by both parties, Eyes. The Democrat Leaders have successfully eluded scrutiny from their followers because their followers’ gazes are too firmly fixed on the trough.

          • Jay

            Actually, we are living in a communist/fascist controlled state. The conventional labels, (R) (D), were allowed to remain, as the opiate for the mentally challenged!

        • Roger Davies

          Dave:
          I told our meter-reader in ND that if they shut off our electricity by a smart meter, which she knew nothing about, I would see to it that NO ONE would have power! I will go to jail before I will allow them to control me! http://dev.republicoftheunitedstates.org/

        • Altaica

          I certainly hope they don’t pull this smart meter crap here. Something needs to be done about utility monopolies and their control over our rights! We only have one choice for water and one choice for electric here as well. It’s ridiculous!

          • Kate8

            Altaica p Agenda 21 is worldwide. The entire US is scheduled to be on the smartgrid.

            It’s coming your way, you can be sure. It would be a good time to start educating your community now, before they arrive and catch most folks off guard. Also, make your position known to your local government. They are the ones who sell us out.

            Most people just open their gates and let them in. If not, they will try to show up while you are away and install them without your consent.

            Check out the link I left for DaveH. It tells you what to do.

          • Altaica

            Kate8

            I’ll definitely look into those, got them saved. Looks like my government officials get more mail from me!

        • Kate8

          DaveH – Have you looked on jeffrense.com? He’s had lots of articles and videos on smartmeters. I had a list of all the cities in the world who have sold out to Agenda 21…can’t find it now. But there are thousands.

          The good news is that the rebellion is growning.

          Have you seen this one?

          http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sKoiFJFRy0M

          I still don’t have one, either. The utilities are meeting this month to decide how they’re going to nail those of us who don’t have them.

          • eyeswideopen

            Kate8, here in Florida, we are having to pay rate increases for our electric companies to build Nuclear plants that won’t start building for another 10 years to be completed in 25. Most of the 50 yr olds paying now won’t even be alive to use the electric. All utilities are monopolies, there is no free market when it comes to: electric, water, phone, cable, health insurance, car insurance, home owners insurance. There is however rate increases on a yearly basis. Welcome to the United Corporations of America!

          • DaveH

            Thank you, Kate. I’ve read a little about the health effects, but my major concern is the invasion of my privacy by the snoops. Also, I’m sure you’ve heard about the smart meters being used for marijuana growers’ busts. Who knows what they’ll use them for next. My neighbor, who fled Communism in Czechoslovakia 40 years ago, is very alarmed about them as he saw the same sort of privacy invasions as Communism started taking hold there.

          • Kate8

            DaveH – Smartmeters are part of the control grid, and can be used to monitor all kinds of things. In the videos he talks about all the things that they can do with them.

            Hold your ground. I am, and so are many, many others. We cannot back down on this one. There is too much at stake.

            Even people who live off the grid are being old that they either hook up to the grid or vacate their land. They don’t want anyone living independently.

            While it troubles me that many here laugh at me and accuse me of paranoia, attempting to discredit anything I say, the things I’ve mentioned are only the tip of the iceberg when it comes to what the NWO has planned for us.

            Watch the video I posted above, and see if you can refute a single bit of information.

          • Karolyn

            Where I live we have cooperative electric and telephone companies owned by the users.

          • DaveH

            Kate,
            I’ve told you before, it makes no difference to me if there are conspiracies or not, because I want to cut the size of Government dramatically whether there are conspirators or not.
            With small Government kept out of the marketplace, the conspirators are declawed.

          • Kate8

            DaveH – I gave you the link to that video, not because I want to prove to you that conspiracies exist, but to expose you to how we are being totally mind-controlled, even if we think we aren’t. That’s the whole point, after all, is so we believe it’s all just happening naturally, when it’s been planned all along.

            It’s all very slick. None but the most astute will ever see it. It’s sleight of hand, subtle, and insidious.

            Just watch it, DaveH. It’s riviting. Once you start, you’ll want to know.

          • DaveH

            I did watch it, Kate, not long after you posted it.

        • Dan az

          Dave
          Good for you!Don’t give in!Did you say you owned the house?What we do here is probably not going to work for where you live in the trees.But your roof is still open right?If so I can help you set it up!

          • Dan az

            Hey have you got a stun gun or a cattle prod?You know that it disables all the computers on a car right?Well if this thing is electronic,Just saying!

          • Kate8

            The utilities hire (foreign) contractors to install the meters. They are just doing a job. They have been instructed not to engage the customers. If they can’t find you away from home, they will leave you alone until someone higher up comes for you.

            Make sure you have notices on your meter that say “DO NOT INSTALL SMARTMETER”. Make sure they are secure and won’t blow away.

      • professor

        Don’t forget that the Tea Party members and the soldiers coming home from the war have been called, the “terrorists we need to watch!”

    • George E.

      Paul,

      Foreign governments buy weapons produced by US manufacturers because 1) they feel threatened by external forces, and 2) the US manufactures the best weapons. I doubt they’re buying these weapons because they feel particularly threatened by the US government. If that is true, then the demand exists for these weapons regardless what we do, so wouldn’t you just as soon our companies sell these weapons as companies in other countries? This creates jobs in the US and gives us a measure of control over these weapons which we wouldn’t have if they were manufactured elsewhere. I reject the notion that our government and weapons manufacturers are creating wars for the purpose of selling weapons. That might make the basis for entertaining books and movies, but I need proof that we’re doing that before I’m going to jump on that band wagon.

      • Al Sieber

        George, the USA sells weapons to both sides.

        • TIME

          Now just add to the mix the Rothschilds and banking to both sides then ~ WOW ~ we can start to unravel this whole mess.
          But first you have to step way back over 150 years ago and figure out how it all went wrong way back then..

          • Kate8

            TIME – Would you please do me a favor and watch this video?

            http://www.brasschecktv.com/videos/offensive-technology/predictive-programming.html

            I’m dying to get some feedback from someone here. And you will understand what I mean when you see it. It is extremely well done, and I didn’t see one thing that could be refuted by anyone, R, L or in the middle.

          • TIME

            Hi Kate,

            I will review it in full and get back to you on it I hit the first few momnets and its looking very straight forward form that.
            This is indeed whats truly going on, and it can be seen by peoples actions daily. Let me just give you a quick example of this.

            I had to leave my holiday early due to a friend had a stroke so I came home. Be all that as it may when I got home my wife and I went to the Food Store on Sunday to pick up some supplys.

            When we got there sitting out front not asking for anything was a fellow who looked beaten down with a old pack and his old dog, Both he and his dog are just skin and bones. I went on my way and picked up a boxed Chicken and some soup and water a bag of dog food and a few other supplys, of what I went back out to find people saying to this fellow God Bless you, but that will not feed the man nor his dog.
            I walked up and gave him the three bags of food and water dogfood etc. He broke into tears he was so shocked.
            He wanted to do some work for us to pay us back, well I don’t have any work for him, but we are working on getting him a job helping at the stables.

            Whats my point, people are conditioned to not see folks in need, they don’t exist they have become “subhuman” in many folks eyes.
            And thats how it all starts.

            We all need to just do random acts of Kindness to rekindle Christ words in our souls. Christ didn’t believe in churchs etc. he believed that you can speak with God on your onw terms but to do so you must be pure of heart and never expect anything in return.

            Saddly the modern Progressive thinks nothing of walking on stepping on or even killing anyone who dare be subhuman in their eyes.

            May God have pitty on all our souls.

          • Kate8

            TIME – What you just said brought tears to my eyes. God bless you for that. What a beautiful thing to do.

            I have a friend who is dirt poor, works very hard, and barely gets by. Yet she is one of the kindest people I’ve ever known, and never whines or complains. She is always smiling.

            Very often, she cooks up a bunch of food and takes it to the homeless camp, even though she has very little. Much of it comes from her own garden, chickens and goats.

            TIME, the more I learn about what’s on the horizon, the more my heart aches for those who refuse to see. We are walking right into a trap, one that has been centuries in the making. And all it would take to stop the whole thing in its tracks is for people to learn the truth.

            But it seems that most of them just don’t want to see, and they will attack anyone who tries to show them.

            Godspeed, my friend. I can’t wait to hear what you think.

          • JeffH

            Kate8, I watched just a few minutes and will go back to watch the entire video…this video falls right in line with a lot of the discussions we’ve had here at PLD. Microchipping won’t ever happen to me and it becomes more obvious every day that the enemy of freedom doesn’t need an army of armed soldiers, just an army of believers…we see the results of the power of suggestion every day…1st it was microchip your dog, now it’s microchip your kids and just as the Baja did, microchip your customers…all for the better good of not waiting in a line or using a credit card…”I’m from the government and I’m here to help”…great video, Thanks and I’ll get back to you after watching it.

            TIME…vry touching…you’re a good man. I don’t donate much because I don’t have much to donate…but I do what I can with what I have and have stopped on many occasion and given what I could…but I refuse to give to just anybody looking for a handout…God bless you and your family.

      • DaveH

        How’s this, George? Why would they continually use trumped up false-flag events to persuade the American People to allow them to operate their war-machine around the world? If their wars are just and good, why don’t they just be honest and tell the truth?
        http://www.infowars.com/operation-false-flag-a-modern-primer/

        • Kate8

          DaveH – I think you just answered your own question.

      • DaveH

        And why are the “good guys” doing this sort of stuff?
        This is graphic and sickening, so I advise people who don’t have strong constitutions to NOT watch it:
        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5rXPrfnU3G0

        • eddie47d

          Disgusting behavior to say the least.

        • JeffH

          DaveH, yet there is still an extremely large contingent of the populace that believe every word they’re fed by the media and the government and shun the idea that conspiracies against “the people” may and do exist.

        • Kate8

          DaveH – That is so shocking that I couldn’t bear to watch. I has to ffwd.

          What have we become.

        • Karolyn

          That’s what war does. It turns men into monsters. These guys sounded like they were really enjoying themselves and just couldn’t wait to shoot. My friend’s son is in the Army and is the same way – very hardened after fighting in three arenas.

          • Jay

            War doesn’t make monsters. Monsters, make war!

          • Kate8

            True, Jay. But the opposite is also true.

            These young kids of such courage and spirit, who go off to defend their country and their families with such high-minded purpose…because that is what they honestly believe.

            Those are the ones who become the very thing that they believe they are fighting against.

            They simply know not what they do.

    • Jay

      9/11 paved the way!

  • http://NA Joe Hooker

    Still though, take a look at what happened the last time those muhamedians tryed taking over the world. It took something like SEVEN HUNDRED YEARS to stop them, & it left nearly the entire world bankrupt! Ever wonder how come in 1492 the king & queen of Spain were willing to actually pawn the queen’s jewelry to pay for Columbus’s exploration? 1492 was also the year they’d finally managed to throw out the muslims who’s basically conquered Spain, so the country had NO money left! BUT, while there’s no reason at all to like them. You have to sort of admire these people who’ve decided to be our enemies. They don’t even understand the concepts of giving up or quitting! While thier beliefs may be just plain foolish & eveil, they’re all willing to die for them!!

    • George E.

      Joe,

      I think I understand what you’re saying. However, I don’t admire evil in any form, and the more determined someone is to carry out evil, the less I like it.

      • Jim

        I believe he was just admiring their tenacity.

    • DaveH

      Joe,
      We can’t even get the truth about current events. Who knows what really went on 600 years ago?
      For a real eye-opener read this book “The Real Lincoln: A New Look at Abraham Lincoln, His Agenda, and an Unnecessary War” by Thomas DiLorenzo.
      We haven’t even been taught the real truth about a president from just 150 years ago.

      • eyeswideopen

        DaveH, and yet we surived and thrived, to become the GREATEST NATION on earth. We can’t go backwards like you want, so why don’t we fix our problems and go forward?

        • DaveH

          Because knowing the truth about events of the past can only help to guide us in the right direction in the future.
          That revelation (about Lincoln) ought to make you happy, Eyes. He was a Republican you know.

          • eyeswideopen

            DaveH, that is why I fight so hard to get others to see who and what caused our present day problems. Just like you, I know unless you acknowledge the past and its results, you cannot move forward, or you will repeat the past. You however don’t get the hate when you make those same statements, interesting don’t you think?

          • DaveH

            I’m feeling hate from you right now, Eyes. And racism too. Hey, it’s kind of fun acting like a Liberal and pulling facts from thin air.

          • Kate8

            DaveH – Eyes is, apparently, another one who just doesn’t want to get it.

          • DaveH

            Yes, Kate, I don’t believe I’ve run into anybody else on this site who digs so hard as Eyes does to personally attack somebody. She knows all about hate. But then, should that surprise us that a Liberal is a hypocrite?

          • eyeswideopen

            DaveH, Oh my Gosh, now you are acting like JeffH and reading something into my statement that is not there. I made a comment, which had an observation in it and you interpret it to be hate? Geez, no wonder this country is in trouble. Paranoia runs rampant on this site. Dave, I don’t hate anyone, it is against my religious beliefs and it takes too much energy (negative)to hate. Sorry, but you are wrong in your assumption. Maybe you and JeffH should get together and decide what people really mean after they make a comment, and let us all know exactly what we really meant. LMAO. Now that Sir, is me being a smart ass!

          • JeffH

            eyes, you obviously see yourself as something that you’re not…I just see you for what you are and apparently I’m not the only one!

    • professor

      Terrorists are willing to die because they have nothing, most cannot even read or write. They are given drugs, plentiful and easy to get in that part of the world, to keep them high. Their cult tells them not to worry, they will be rewarded after an honorable death…fighting to enslave other countries and giving their lives for the spread of Islam. They had hard lives, harsh parenting, and have carried a gun and have been told to kill, as long as they can remember.

      In comparison, Americans have had the easy lives, others only dream about. They have hopes of a better future, love their parents, wives and children, and were taught to be non-violent. Most Americans have never seen death in the streets….while it is an everyday occurrence for most muslims. American soldiers have to be taught to accept the idea that they will have to kill, and that people will be trying to kill them. It is much harder for a civilized man to go to war than for a barbarian that is taught that war is their way of life..

  • Carl J.

    The U.S. Military is a “social program” funded by tax dollars, just like Medicare and Social Security. So why are the Tea Party activists attacking our own military and their expenditures? Military funding is being slashed and attacked. What a gigantic bunch of two-faced hypocrytes.

    • George E.

      Carl,

      Hold on there partner. Tea Party advocates are very concerned about the debt this nation has accrued, and understands we need to take some tough measures to get our spending in balance with revenues. They are also aware of our need to fund national defense, but understand that all government programs should be able to economize their operations in the reduction of unnecessary wasteful spending, even in the military. So, when it gets down to priorities, I believe the Tea Party would put cutting national defense near the bottom of programs that should be cut.

    • Dagney

      Military spending is a drop in the bucket compared to the funding of the Marxist-progressive-liberal poverty (for all but a few) adjendas we’ve been funding since FDR’s New Deal. The military is the only thing mandated in the Constitution! Yet, the commies in our country always complain about this one LEGITIMATE expenditure and REFUSE to look at their own FRAUD, WASTE, and ABUSE. The Tea Party are just normal people who have finally woken up to the PROGRESSIVE adjenda to steal our freedoms by stealing our wealth. No, the military will always be needed. EVERYTHING else funded by our federal government should be on the chopping block!

      • DaveH

        Our Constitution made provisions for only a short-term standing army in times of mass attack by other countries. Otherwise, the state militias were responsible for defense.
        From the Constitution, Article I, Section 8:
        “The Congress shall have Power ….
        To declare War, grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal, and make Rules concerning Captures on Land and Water;
        To raise and support Armies, but no Appropriation of Money to that Use shall be for a longer Term than two Years;
        To provide and maintain a Navy;
        To make Rules for the Government and Regulation of the land and naval Forces;
        To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions;
        To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the Militia, and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress”

        Notice particularly the sentence “To raise and support Armies, but no Appropriation of Money to that Use shall be for a longer Term than two Years”. Our founders, especially Thomas Jefferson knew the follies of the Federal Government controlling standing armies and they tried to prevent such (to no avail obviously).

        • Dagney

          And? You’re going to quibble about length of time when our freedoms and liberty is being stolen by every new regulation and tax that is forced on us by things that are not even in the Constitution? Nope, sorry, the military is the least of our problems. Look closer to home to your pocket book and the IRS and so-called laws to “protect us” from ourselves!

          • DaveH

            The military is the “least” of our problems, Dagney?
            You call $872 Billion out of $3592 Billion “least”?
            That’s about $2800 per year for every man, woman, and child in the country. Or to put it another way, $8450 per year for every average family (3.1 people) in the United States. And for what? To campaign around the world creating enemies for us who otherwise might have admired us for our wealth creation?

        • DaveH

          Jefferson and Washington advised against getting entangled in other countries’ quarrels. But Leaders are people. And, as such, they establish relationships with others in their class (Foreign Leaders, Crony Capitalists). Just as we would want to help out our friends in times of stress, so do they. The difference is that they let the power of their position get in the way and thus involve the involuntary money and lives of others in their choices to help their friends:
          http://mises.org/daily/3003

          • eyeswideopen

            DaveH. You are correct!

  • Donna

    It is what it is. Good old saying. If it smells like a skunk it is a skunk.

  • Doc Sarvis

    Jamal, good points on the racisim displayed here. I will take up another aspect missing from the article.

    I think it was Dick Cheney who, durring the last administration, predicted this would be a forever war or something to that affect.

    I think we need to be out of the Middle-east alltogether. And I think we should be completely out of Iraq now and Afghanistan ASAP. Ultimately, except for humanitarian matters I think we should be out of that region completely. Unfortunately, it is undeniable that we have strong economic interests – namely oil, in that region that continues to bind us to many of these conflicts. If we were to pull out of that region completely, in military/economic/energy terms, I am sure we would see a steady decrease of the power and motivation of the Islamic extremeists.

    To that end, we NEED to (and should have already) developed energy alternatives and more efficiencies in our use of energy. President Carter warned us about this in the mid-70′s and had we taken up the challenge then we probably be independent of major oil resources, would have saved hundreds of billions of dollars (defending and purchasing foreign oil), and saved probably hundreds of thousands of lives (american and otherwise). Having misse that early warning we have wasted way too much but hopefully will realize our addiction is what it is. We can not stay addicted to this resource and must develop energy alternatives and efficiencies in our use of energy.

    • bob wire

      and with the political playing field inundated with money from “Big Oil” this won’t happen, leaving us where we find ourselves today.

      • Doc Sarvis

        Now is the time to be asking anyone running for President or a seat in Congress tough questions on how they will address these issues and how they see their relationship with big oil in the future. It is a mountain but if we don’t bring these tough issues to the front of the debate they will never be addressed.

        • Sheldon

          But Doc… that’s the problem. You can’t ask anyone running for office those kind of questions because they need corporate $$$ to run their campaigns. The system has been affected and infected by the lobbyists that need to be removed from the process. In order to get rid of special interest groups you need to get elected… but you can’t get elected without raising money from special interest groups. The system has become corrupted from within.

          • Doc Sarvis

            What about Town Hall meetings and letters to the editor and local “activist” campaigns. I am not saying this is easy but if you love this country you will do whatever you can to improve it as opposed to just saying it is too much effort and conflicts with my TV viewing.

          • eyeswideopen

            Sheldon, how about making the states pay for elections, giving everyone the same amount of money to be accounted for, and nothing else. Then the politicians voted in will not “owe” the lobbyists a dime or a vote for their special interests? Corruption can be controlled at the state level if we would insist that politicians not partake of contributions from corporations or lobbyists. Easy fix to a corrupt system.

        • Dan az

          Tell me Doc didn’t you believe obumer when he was on the campaign trail?Those tough questions got answered but which one did he actually keep?Any?The truth is they all have a record of how they voted and thats what every one should look at!Take Ron Paul for the last thirty years has he changed anything that he said then and what he says now?I think the record will show the truth about all the want to be’s.

    • DaveH

      Doc says “Jamal, good points on the racisim displayed here”. What points, Doc? Please demonstrate John’s or our racist remarks.
      I’m betting you can’t. So that makes you ignorant at the least. But I suspect Liar is closer to the truth, since you probably know better but make such statements anyway.

    • eyeswideopen

      Doc Sarvis, hands clapping!!

      • Jay

        Why are you clapping, Doc just called you a racist!

    • http://at&t Gene Barrett

      Amen we should stop throwing good money after bad. Get out stay out
      keep our money here. Let us do something that makes sense for a change.
      Onamba was supposed to get us out of the wars. HaHa

      • Doc Sarvis

        President Obama got combat troops out of Iraq ahead of schedule. I’ll give him credit for that. Let’s go with the rest of them.

        • DaveH

          Can we expect any more from a typical Liberal whose Principles change depending on whose in office?

        • Jay

          Why are we still in Iraq?
          Posted on April 28, 2011 by Gary St. Lawrence 3

          The American invasion of Iraq was supposed to take only a few months in 2003: A quick-n-painless mission accomplished to depose dictator Saddam Hussein, find and dismantle weapons of mass destruction and then go home – in a matter of weeks, not months. And Iraqi oil was supposed to pay for it all.

          Eight years and 1.668 Trillion debt-dollars later, more than 50,000 U.S. troops remain in Iraq, and not only is there no end in sight, the soldiers on the ground, as well as a swelling majority of American citizens can’t even tell you in a single sentence why we’re still there or what they’re accomplishing. Oh, and the price of oil has gone from $43 a barrel to its close today at $113.86 a barrel.

          Despite a security agreement requiring a full U.S. military withdrawal by the end of this year, upwards of 40,000 American troops will continue to be deployed in Iraq beyond 2011. An average of 2.27 American military members will continue to be killed every day. And more than $12 Billion will continue to be paid every single month to Halliburton and it’s perpetually indicted-for-accounting-fraud subsidiaries for “troop support contracts.”

          About 47,000 American troops are in Iraq now, about a third of the October 2007 peak of 166,000. As of this week, 4,439 U.S. personnel have been killed. A senior adviser to Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki said the U.S. has suggested to Iraqi officials that up to 20,000 troops stay.
          So those are the numbers, irrefutable and provable.
          My question is: WHY?

          http://garystlawrence.wordpress.com/2011/04/28/why-are-we-still-in-iraq/

  • TIME

    WELCOME ~ This is the never ending war you knew was coming yet failed to think it come ever happen HERE.
    Let me ask all of you, what better bad guys to fight than say, Al Qaida or perhaps better said the CIA and MI-5..

    How can it end when we are in fact the Enemy, think I am kidding? Welcome to the real world of Illusion brought to you by the New World Order.

    Its really quite simple to prove all of what I just posted all it would take is about five hours of your time.
    We are the worlds Army we also have our European arm called NATO who is controlled by the United Nations oddly so are we.
    Who is controlled by the MONEY House of the Rothschilds and the rest of the special people.
    In Rome we have our spiritual leaders.

    Welcome to the world of George Orwell’s 1984 in living color and Live on your TV daily. “The Revolution will be Televised.”

    Your part of it rather you like it, of even know it or wish to admit it.

    No its not a dream, no its not BS, its real and its unfolding before your very eyes daily. Saddly most are to busy beating each other up either due to either FEAR or outright ignorance by way of being in Da Nile, or still in the DemO v RebO show boat.
    You be the judge of each persons reactions.

    • Sunnie

      Time, I’ve been following you for quite a while now and find that you’re right on the money most of the time. I couldn’t agree with you more on this issue. We can only hope that there are enough of us who see through the muddy waters to stop the madness. Doubtful, but I’m a hopeless optimist.

      • TIME

        Sunnie,

        I too feel we can overcome, I really think that RE-education is the key to all of it. To understand that all we have been told all of what we have seen has been to move us all into that nice tight straight line.
        Anyone recall when you were in school you had to stay in a straight line, no fooling around, if you don’t do as your told something bad would happen to you?
        Well life is no differant when you grow up its just harder.

        We must break the Chains & Yoke of being slaves to the NWO masters, stand up and be FREE! If you die you die but with TRUTH in your soul.
        To live a lie is not living its existing until you’re next fix of Stuff you don’t need.
        A new Cell phone is not living, a New Car is not living, a new Outfit is not living, nor is being seen at the most In place – thats all just sublimating junk for LIFE!

        Live, LOVE, and Give Thanks, thats the Keys to being truly Happy and a having a FREE SOUL.

        • Kate8

          TIME – You are so right. That is, perhaps, the only lesson we are to take from all of this.

          Things are just things. We become slaves to things. If we don’t keep paying for things forever, and paying for the privilege of having things, bad things happen to us.

          Things come and things go.

          You said it well. Love is all that matters. Without love, things don’t matter. Without love, life is meaningless.

          • Karolyn

            Amen!

    • Jay

      Correct on all points Time!

  • Sharif

    Licking your self -inflicted wouds! Wait you will bleed through your nose tails!You all Crusaders(America+Nato) could not defeat few thousands barefooted Afghans, the Taliban,having no airforce planes,misiles,long range guns,tanks, the spy networks. Stay more in Afghanistan! Remember how Britsh Empire Froces were kicked out from Afghanistan. Dont want to learn leason from history? You will get one!

    • bob wire

      I’ve tried to tell them the same thing. They are not listening Sharif.

    • FreedomFighter

      Actually they could burn the drug fields, and exterminate the population completely and repopulate the country with other peoples.

      Really not a nice thing to do.

      Laus Deo
      Semper Fi

      • Dan az

        FF
        Simply put we could but we refuse to exterminate the lowest class on earth!There God would reward them but ours would condemn us.There lies the problem.

    • Sheldon

      Sharif… it’s not about defeat and subjugating the defeated people… that’s easy (and that’s more of the Muslim style of warfare). Defeating Afghanistan and most of that area is a couple of nuclear tipped cruise missile strikes away… and it could be done simply… with a lot less armed forces personnel in harm’s way… and it could be done in about 24 hours.
      What the West is trying to do is help the people of Afghanistan get out from underneath the theological tyranny of the Taliban. The west is trying to let women be educated and treated as persons as opposed to having Afghani women being randomly beaten by simple minded “holy” men because they showed too much ankle. The west is trying to introduce basic human rights and that takes time… a long time, especially when you’re dealing with religious zealots/terrorists. Defeating a country is easy… helping them into the 21st century is long, hard, dirty and dangerous work.

      • DaveH

        Before we can give any other country Freedom, Sheldon, we must secure our own. And we are a long way from that.

        • Sheldon

          You’re right Dave… but I wasn’t saying it was a well-planned strategy. Arriving in a foreign country, toppling the tyrant and suddenly expecting the populace to embrace some form of democracy was both extremely noble and utterly naïve.
          As I mentioned earlier, the country is suffering from systemic problems in the way politicians need to raise exorbitant sums of money just to run for office, only to become beholden to the lobbyists and corporations that paid their way. It’s tough to export US style democracy to people that have never had it, don’t understand it and don’t like what they currently see. Who wants to substitute their previous corrupt leader with a soulless corporation or cede their rights to an elected official who has to answer to the highest bidders that financed their election run? You’re right, the US has fix their own problems before they have a model for export.

          • DaveH

            We could take care of that problem, Sheldon, by getting Government out of the Marketplace (other than to enforce laws against fraud). Let the consumers decide which companies succeed and which companies fail, instead of the Politicians making that decision.
            For Free Markets, Individual Liberty, Personal Responsibility, Limited Government, and PEACE, vote Libertarian:
            http://libertarianparty.org/platform

          • Sheldon

            DaveH… as far as I’m concerned with your statement… “you’re preachin’ to the choir.” (Irony intended.)

          • DaveH

            I’m happy to hear that.

          • Kate8

            Sharif – American troops could win the war if they wanted to, just as stated.

            It’s obvious enough that winning is not part of the agenda.

            It’s perpetual warfare.

          • Jay

            WW3, order out of chaos!

  • http://www.easyinvest.co.za peter

    It should be very clear to one and all that without wars and the resultant armament sales ( to both sides )) the economy of the USA would be in more dire straits than it is already. To be engaged in perpetual wars is of the utmost importance and such engagement exacts the highest priority of the government – just look at the defense budget, which should really read the attack budget. Obama preaches for votes and governs for ego. Hypocritical is hardly the word to describe this person.

  • Donald D Jones ww2 vet

    after the war , Heidelberg Germany, Frau Hoffner, lost her husband and
    two sons, Hated Hitler the most, which taught me to beware of big government, the most important statment from the above is ( who is going to protect us from the government?) We have to turn it around or we will be like Germany 1947 worthless, destitute and lost
    we can do it but will we

    • bob wire

      It’s always boiled down to the willingness to “do” or “not do” what is necessary.

      The decision was make early on to not destroy all of Europe in removing German forces and influence. This made it a door to door, hedgerow to hedgerow fight across all of Europe with small arms fire with Supreme Allied forces and one supreme leader, Ike.

      What determination we had! Victory was not an option.

  • Free Mind

    When Americans begin to understand that the Federal government is a bigger threat than the Taliban or al-Quaida then and only then will we be able to stop this crap. These shadowy enemies in the Mid east want us out of their affairs, we want out of their affairs, but the feds use this threat of terrorism to enslave us and them.
    I am tired of telling people like Doc Sarvis to get their head out of there lower extremities and do something pro active for a change.

    • Al Sieber

      I’ll second that, Doc will never get his head out of his a$$, you’re asking the impossible.

    • Doc Sarvis

      The feds are doing our own bidding since we will not adapt/adopt to new sources of energy and increased energy use efficiencies.

      By the way, you and Al S. are far too interested in my rear end. I’m begining to wonder about you two.

      • Al Sieber

        Sorry Doc, I though you were Florence Nightingale. my mistake, don’t get excited nobody is interest in your butt.

  • Dagney

    The longest war, by far, we’ve been in, is the Marxist, sorry…..LIBERALS and LBJ’s “War on Poverty” with his laughable “Great Society”. It is still going on and we are still losing it. Poverty is worse now than it was when this sham of a war was started. The only way to win such a war, and, quite possibly the “War on Terror” is to go back to our founding; institute and EXPORT the American priciples of FREEDOM and FREE MARKETS for EVERYBODY. Everything else is just a scam to enrich a few over the many and to buy the votes of the non-productive.

    As far as the “War on Terror” goes, the Marxists …. uh, LIBERALS don’t give a damn about it. If we get hit again, they would be just as happy because they can use it as an excuse for more laws to control US. There is a very real danger from Muslim Extremists. However, the more immediate danger is from within.

    So glad Obama was elected so that most of America could see what the PROGRESSIVE adjenda was really like. The American people, normally so busy minding their own business, are being forced to FINALLY wake up!

    • eyeswideopen

      Dagney, why do you feel as though we need to EXPORT our principles to another country? Why do we need to interfer in other countries governments? We don’t and should stop insanity of trying to make the entire world a democracy.

      • moonbeam

        “We don’t and should stop insanity of trying to make the entire world a democracy.”

        Hitting the nail on the head here, Eyes. This is why we need to come out of the ME. It’s not our business over there. They want us out and being the ignorant “guest” in somebody else’s house, we refuse to leave.

        If I’m in your house and you don’t want me there telling me to leave, I decide I’m going to stay anyway, then you have the right to kick my ass and toss me out on the same ass you just kicked.

        • Dan az

          You know the funny thing about all this is that we go there to help others from the dictators that run the country.And we are accused of destroying there country and there way of life.On one hand I can see helping stop genocides but on the other hand I see the constitution that prohibits it.Then you have a monkey in charge that thinks its just some toilet paper and he is above the law of the land.By giving our military over to the UN and making all of us pay for it. The elite loves to confuse us by using our emotions like the twin towers to help sell weapons to both sides.When exactly are we going to start over?Because the way I see it there is no way of fixing it only starting it!We give our money and our blood for what?So they can control the world and all its slaves.When are all the people going to figure out that we have been had?Where in our constitution dose it say that we should tax the people to pay for wars in other countries?Did I miss something here?This two headed monster is growing and if we can’t stop it how is?Rather than bicker about sides lets join together and try to take this beast down.Before its to late.

    • eddie47d

      We are awake Dagney and more so than you. We see how you have enriched a few in corporate America at the expense of the rest of us. Blaming the Liberals is easy and well worn but you use it well. Also since the Patriot Act was mostly a spoon fed Republican baby burped by Conservatives and a show case of their beliefs. I believe you should be the laying that cute little rug-rat at their feet not at the foot of the Liberals.

      • JeffH

        98 U.S. senators for voted in favor of the US Patriot Act of 2001 (Senator Landrieu (D-LA) did not vote) Senator Russ Feingold of Wisconsin was the only senator who voted against the Patriot Act on October 24, of 2001.

        In the House, yea/nay/no votes were as follows:
        Republicans – 211/3/5
        Democrats – 145/62/4
        Independents – 1/1/0

        Most definately a bi-partisan vote in favor of the 2001 Patriot Act.

        The Patriot Act is a model of Joe Biden’s Omnibus Counterterrorism Act of 1995. It previewed the 2001 Patriot Act by allowing secret evidence to be used in prosecutions, expanding the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act and wiretap laws, creating a new federal crime of “terrorism” that could be invoked based on political beliefs, permitting the U.S. military to be used in civilian law enforcement, and allowing permanent detection of non-U.S. citizens without judicial review. The Center for National Security Studies said the bill would erode “constitutional and statutory due process protections” and would “authorize the Justice Department to pick and choose crimes to investigate and prosecute based on political beliefs and associations.”

        Biden himself draws parallels between his 1995 bill and its 2001 cousin. “I drafted a terrorism bill after the Oklahoma City bombing. And the bill John Ashcroft sent up was my bill,” he said when the Patriot Act was being debated, according to the New Republic, which described him as “the Democratic Party’s de facto spokesman on the war against terrorism.”

        • Dan az

          Damn brother there you go again with the facts thingy.You’ll never learn will ya. :)

          • Jay

            Hmm, no response from eddie.

          • Kate8

            Dan az – Eddie always bails when he hits the wall of truth and runs out of smart answers.

        • eddie47d

          Does that bother you Jay? What is your problem Kate8? Did you miss me? Jeff can present any downloaded material he wants and I have told him that a few times although I’d rather have his own opinion. The Patriot Act was supported by the majority of Republicans .What part of that can’t you grasp or is that above your intellect? You can slam all the Democrats you want who signed on to this Act. So get over yourself Kate.

  • sybucket

    To begin with -War is man’s nature, like it or not.

    To our Middle eastern contribuiters here, let me say this. The US, Isreal, Germany and to a lesser extent, England are the 4 countries on this planet you do NOT want to Completly piss off, because if you do, if you piss us off enough, we can turn your countries into Moltin Glass. The US is the only country that has ever done it and pushed far enough we might do it again. Isreal has nothing to lose if their back is against the wall.

    In regards to the colum by Mr. Myers. I disagree with much of what he says. The so called “War” on drugs has gone on much longer than any other “war” we have fought and we have been losing that one too….seemingly because we want to!

    In regards to our losses of freedoms…We have been down that road before as well. The Civil War, to some degree both WWI and WWII saw a loss of liberty but it has always come back and it will this time. Americans will only put up with just so much and then start demanding an end to it. Obama will no be re-elected and will no longer have a chance to continue his own personell “War” on America and as George Will once said…”There isn’t anything he can do that we can’t fix”

    • Karolyn

      War is really not man’s nature. Especially when you include woman in “man”.

    • Doc Sarvis

      …in man’s nature; what a cop out.

  • bob wire

    Hmm, It seems that the notions of war and how to wage one has changed somewhat over the years. Any “war” should have a clear objective and be perceived as possible, as obtainable. The battles will be many, some will be a clear lose and some victories.

    Winning battles while losing wars is not all that uncommon.

    These wars we wage in the middle east have never been “winnable” to start with. Not unless you are willing to take Senator McCain’s advise and support a 50 years occupational force. Send enough American GI’s and money over there long enough and stay long enough to inter marry and breed a new generation of children that will someday take their rightful place as leaders of their country.

    To ever win hearts and minds you need a dog in the fight. These wars are seen as an abstracted extension for too many Americans.

    The administration and military complex took advantage of a door of opportunity that was opened on 9-11 and the American peoples reaction to it. ~ It’s not rocket surgery! Like Mr. Livingston, I don’t believe the right questions have been asked. As I understand it, Wall Street was under a Federal investigation prior to 9-11. 9-11 stopped this investigation dead in their tracks.

    but back to warring,

    If you have plans to ever winning any war you must be willing to lay waste. You do as Grant, burn , slash, cut and capture to the sea until there is nothing left to fight with but rocks and sticks and little left to eat.

    There surgical strikes we seem to excel at have a purpose but for a checkmate it’s still a boots on the ground situation. There is nothing quite like a boot on your neck and looking up a 34″inch inseam and into a soldiers face as he makes a split second decision where you live or die that will get your heart right.

    But,

    We learned these lessons fighting the Kong, ~ you can’t claim a victory fighting things that disappear into the jungle like misquotes.

  • Everyday Politics

    The US is in the Middle East because of Oil. We don’t drill for oil because of the environment. We protect the environment because we want to keep our high standard of living. We are losing our high standard of living because the government spends more than it takes in from taxes. Our tax revenue is falling because unemployment is high. It seems the government has all the answers and ALL the wrong moves. Who will rise to the occasion and fix it?

    • SMSgt Z retired Nam 68

      Anaerobic Digester’s a partial answer to our energy needs. A energy source that big oil and coal hate Remember there motto “Profits before Country”

    • 45caliber

      If we fight in the Mid-East to take the oil, why is it that we get no oil from Iraq or Afghanistan?

      In fact, most of the oil we get from the Mid-east comes from Iran – whom we consider an enemy. Just as they consider us an enemy. Strange, isn’t it?

      Frankly, I feel contempt and pity for anyone who actually believes we fight for oil there. Don’t waste my time.

      • eddie47d

        There is no oil in Afghanistan and the Iraqi oil is tied up in fixing their domestic problems . We screwed ourselves in this war for oil and doubly screwed the Iraqi people.There is nothing left for our immediate consumption after our conquest.

        • 45caliber

          If we had invaded to take the oil, we would have the oil. So the arguement is only a red herring.

          • eddie47d

            Don’t be so naive.

          • Dan az

            Actually 45
            Were there because of the mineral rights,a trillion dollars worth.And china is buying the ground up as we speak.

          • Jay

            It was never about oil, security, or installing democracy. It was, and is, about world domination!

          • 45caliber

            Jay:

            And we dominate the world by … how?

          • Jay

            The Neoconservatives

            Who are the neoconservatives? The first generation were ex-liberals, socialists, and Trotskyites, boat-people from the McGovern revolution who rafted over to the GOP at the end of conservatism’s long march to power with Ronald Reagan in 1980.

            A neoconservative, wrote Kevin Phillips back then, is more likely to be a magazine editor than a bricklayer. Today, he or she is more likely to be a resident scholar at a public policy institute such as the American Enterprise Institute (AEI) or one of its clones like the Center for Security Policy or the Jewish Institute for National Security Affairs (JINSA). As one wag writes, a neocon is more familiar with the inside of a think tank than an Abrams tank.

            Almost none came out of the business world or military, and few if any came out of the Goldwater campaign. The heroes they invoke are Woodrow Wilson, FDR, Harry Truman, Martin Luther King, and Democratic Senators Henry “Scoop” Jackson (Wash.) and Pat Moynihan (N.Y.).

            All are interventionists who regard Stakhanovite support of Israel as a defining characteristic of their breed. Among their luminaries are Jeane Kirkpatrick, Bill Bennett, Michael Novak, and James Q. Wilson.

            Their publications include the Weekly Standard, Commentary, the New Republic, National Review, and the editorial page of the Wall Street Journal. Though few in number, they wield disproportionate power through control of the conservative foundations and magazines, through their syndicated columns, and by attaching themselves to men of power.

            Beating the War Drums

            When the Cold War ended, these neoconservatives began casting about for a new crusade to give meaning to their lives. On Sept. 11, their time came. They seized on that horrific atrocity to steer America’s rage into all-out war to destroy their despised enemies, the Arab and Islamic “rogue states” that have resisted U.S. hegemony and loathe Israel.

            The War Party’s plan, however, had been in preparation far in advance of 9/11. And when President Bush, after defeating the Taliban, was looking for a new front in the war on terror, they put their precooked meal in front of him. Bush dug into it.

            Before introducing the script-writers of America’s future wars, consider the rapid and synchronized reaction of the neocons to what happened after that fateful day.

            On Sept. 12, Americans were still in shock when Bill Bennett told CNN that we were in “a struggle between good and evil,” that the Congress must declare war on “militant Islam,” and that “overwhelming force” must be used. Bennett cited Lebanon, Libya, Syria, Iraq, Iran, and China as targets for attack. Not, however, Afghanistan, the sanctuary of Osama’s terrorists. How did Bennett know which nations must be smashed before he had any idea who attacked us?

            http://www.amconmag.com/article/2003/mar/24/00007/

  • SMSgt Z retired Nam 68

    Eisenhower warned about the Military Industrial Complex in 1961 Before we invaded Iraq all the anti war protesters were marked as anti American
    Now the same people who attacked the anti war protesters are crying about how long this war is and how we are not winning. Hypocritical and Treasonous are all the people who pushed the war in Iraq with there lie’s.If or military would not have been burdened with Iraq; Afghanistan would not be an issue today.Thanks Conservative Republicans great job.

    • Patrick

      At last some sense,a great note Sgt Z

    • Dagney

      We are not winning because liberals on both sides of the aisle, Democrats and Rebublicans, are “uncomfortable” with the concept of VICTORY. It is politically incorrect to say that you are in a war to WIN IT! This is a concept that came from the hippy, war protester era and cannot be laid at the feet of conservative Americans. Sorry, you are wrong about that!

      Conservatives believe if we HAVE to go to war, we are supposed to be there to kill people and break things, win it and get out! That is all. This thing is being prolonged by people who cannot accept that fact and are too timid ….. not an American priciple at all. The politically correct, these Marxist-Liberals, have prolonged this, have caused many more lives to be destroyed because of their lack of courage and resolve.

    • bob wire

      That move was mind boggling indeed! That invading Iraq was not the Pentagons idea or that many senior bass resigned in strong protest rather then be a part of a military debacle, “conservatives” seem most willing to ignore today. It truly was a turning point and a downward spiral for both the military and the America people.

      Quite frankly it made no sense, making American military strategy a game of horseshoes and hand grenades while men , women and children died, were scarred and crippled for the rest of their life as Dick Chaney and his “independent” black opts explored the country side for future mineral extraction.

      I’m getting very angry all over again in just talking about it. I’m very angry with the people that supported this and made it possible.

  • Dan

    Hypocrisy comes in all colors, ages, and sexes … Hypocrisy comes in all religious faiths, or those who have no religious faith at all … Hypocrisy is everywhere, every day, and never goes away . . .

    Jesus Christ is never hypocritical … Jesus Christ died for all colors, ages, and sexes … Jesus Christ is the answer for people of all religions and those who have no religious belief at all . . . Jesus Christ is everywhere, every day, and never goes away.

    God sent His Son, Jesus, to be born and live among humans as one of us, to suffer the things that we all go through, and then allowed us to crucify Him. He died on that Cross, was buried in a stone tomb, and rose from the dead on the third day. He did all of this to provide a way for sinful Man to have a means to be forgiven of Sin and to be worthy, in the eyes of God the Father, to have eternal life and to enter into Heaven.

    Jesus paid the price for your sins and for mine. To claim this gift of salvation, forgiveness, and eternal life, you must willingly and genuinely accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior. This is a decision that only you can make.

    If you believe that you are a sinner, as is everyone, and you want the peace, love, and joy that comes from having a personal relationship with God, please open your heart and earnestly pray this prayer:

    Lord Jesus,

    I am a sinner and know that I deserve an eternity of punishment in Hell for my sins. I believe that You are the Son of God and that You came to Earth to pay the price for my Sins. I ask You to be my personal Lord and Savior and to come into my heart and completely fill me with your Holy Spirit. Forgive me my sins, cleanse me from all unrighteousness, and abide with me forever. Thank You , Lord Jesus for loving me and saving me !

    Amen

    If you sincerely prayed that prayer, you are now a Christian. The next thing you should do is to find a local Bible-believing, church to help you grow in your faith and to learn more about God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit. The prayer you prayed above is the start and now you should seek to learn more and grow stronger in your faith.

    Avoid so-called “churches” that try to “sugar-coat” what they tell their members. If the church you find does not talk about Sin and Hell or only talks in non-specific terms about Jesus, find a Bible-Believing church instead.

    Avoid “mega-churches”, as most of them are only in it for the money and tell people what they want to hear and/or preach the “prosperity gospel” to draw people in … Find a small, local church and start attending regularly !

  • http://n/a John Beach

    Every president since Abraham Lincoln has inherited a “house divided against itself,” kept together in bicameral representation at the federal level. That is the formal reality. The political issues which divide us are essentially no different than the moral issue of slavery which divided the country and brought about the Civil War, waged to preserve the union of the states at the federal level. It is the debility, vulnerability and liability to national security caused by division and divisiveness over fundamental moral and ethical values and principles which vary among partisan political groups and diverse religious groups in our society which is the major reason for intransigence and resolve on the part of right-wing, fundamentalist conservatives. What works if law, precepts, tenets, rules and regulations do not work or if the opposition continuously wants to overturn, revise, amend, disregard, repeal, change or otherwise do away with a standard or procedure that effectuates just, beneficial order in society? Christianity is fundamentally tolerant.
    The present administration has done much to weaken structured order and encourage the causal factors of diversity which compromise our security or obligate us to compromise, all under the guise of “rights” and “personal freedom” or violations thereof. Right and wrong are incompatible and it is the obligation and responsibility of government to know what is right, to do what is right, to foster and teach what is right and and to administer justice and correction and punishment to those who do wrong. Government continues to fail in doing this because of insidious duplicity in the name of “tolerance” and the cost is too great to pay. Laws are not made to be broken.

    • Jim

      Do you honestly still believe the civil war was fought over slavery?

    • 45caliber

      John:

      The Civil War was fought over economic reasons and a desire to institute a FEDERAL government power. Slavery was only a red herring to hide their real motives from the ones fighting the war. Since the North won the war, it is listed in our history books for the same reason. (The winner writes the history – and destorts it to make the winner look better.) In fact, slavery was more previlent in the NORTH than in the South and continued in the North after the war for several more years before the common people found out and insisted it be banned for good.

  • FreedomFighter

    “But most of us know that Obama is “losing” the War on Terror. I suspect he may be doing so on purpose.”

    You need only look at the rules of engagement.

    I say either fight the war as a war, or BRING THE TROOPS HOME.

    Laus Deo
    Semper Fi

    • bob wire

      supply us with a name of someone that might have won the war on terror?

      “O” completed and brought closure er to an objective, all I ever asked for in the first place and maybe I was duped into thinking so. ~ and if so, That is my fault and a burden I will carry.

      “O” has supped me with want I asked for from the military, as he promised that he would if he was elected.

      Maybe I should have asked for something else ~ but I’ve always keep my demand narrow and failed to understand why Bush could not deliver on his promise.

      I don’t see how you can talk yourself around such “facts” and make the claims that many are attempting to make here.

      • 45caliber

        bob:

        I’m glad you are satisfied with the war as it is today. I’m not.

        If/when we are attacked, I want to go in, find those who organized and planned the attack, and kill them. Then I want to leave with a warning to the rest. But our politicians can’t allow us to do that.

        After all Ike did that in WWII. And look at what happened! He was elected President, taking the place of some politician who had worked years to get high enough to become President! We can’t ALLOW generals who believe in ending wars to do that! It is better to allow the soldiers to die uselessly – as we’ve done since WWII – than risk that!

        As H.H. Humphrey stated once, “It doesn’t matter how many soldiers die as long as the politician can get the credit for ending the war.”

        My real question to you is – WHY SHOULD WE BE SPENDING BILLIONS TO REBUILD THEIR COUNTRIES?

        • eddie47d

          Why did we spend billions attacking these countries and destroying their land. Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11 yet you seem to be willing to spend those billions to prove what point? If we can’t connect the dots in getting the right culprits then we should stay home until we do.

        • bob wire

          45 I don’t believe I say I was pleased with the war on any level.

          We went after a man and his operatives and the powers that allowed him to launch his attack against a sovereign state. There was no need for a “war”. With this clean up completed and the point made, it’s time to leave.

          This not the way 43′s administration conducted affairs. They got distracted and took their eye off the football. Making many have serious second thoughts of the administration true intentions from the offset.

          Bush later said, that “he didn’t know where Osama was and that it didn’t really matter, his origination weaken and no longer a serious threat!”

          That kind of statement makes my blood boil, because it does matter, ~ the American people wanted this man Osama and was willing to pay any price, shoulder any burden to get him.

          This statement of W’s alone tell every American that there was a serious disconnect between 43′s administration and the American people.

          “W” made a war out of it and boosted of being a “War President” , the little pussy makes me want to throw up every time I have to look at him.

          For three trillion dollars, 6 years and no Osama ~ I’m mad as hell.

        • Jay

          You’re right eddie, iraq had nothing to do with 9/11. Unfortunately, the same cannot be said of the CIA!

          • JeffH

            :)…:)

    • Karolyn

      How is th war on terror being lost? There haven’t been any attacks in the US since 9/11.

      • 45caliber

        Wrong, Karolyn: There have been several attacks such as the bomb at Times Square. They just haven’t been successful. BIG DIFFERENCE!

        • bob wire

          So true! what ‘didn’t happen” worthy serious consideration.

          and why, I think “O” worthy some consideration today.

      • Jay

        Karoly, no attacks on USA since 9/11? Really? How about the attacks on our Constitution, Liberties, Economy, Industry, Travel, Peace, and our Future? Terrorism is an octopus with many tentacles, and multiple applications, and far reaching results! Al Qaeda is a CIA instrument, and we, and the muslims, are the patsies!

    • SMSgt Z retired Nam 68

      Try a little bit of factual information for a change

      The drone strikes — part of a covert U.S. war in the northwest part of Pakistan — have changed the way the U.S. fights terrorism in the decade since the attacks of Sept. 11.

      Started under the Bush administration, the strikes into Pakistan have increased fivefold under President Obama. Last year, there were 118.

      http://www.npr.org/2011/08/16/139649619/americas-secret-campaign-against-al-qaida

      http://www.npr.org/2011/09/06/140056904/the-top-secret-america-created-after-9-11

      http://www.npr.org/2011/09/06/140216985/an-open-secret-drone-warfare-in-pakistan

  • Jemave

    This is a game and a devise designed by the elite to keep the pressure and control on the people and to justify allegiance to countries at the end of WWII as they realized that the “regular wars” that they created all along history cannot work anymore with the advent of the Nuclear technology. So creating and maintaining underground conflicts and terrorism is the answer to the demise of conventional war and still be able to control people and extract wealth from them to the benefit of the elite.
    The intelligence agencies that grew just after WWII have all been created to accomplish that.
    Therefore the biggest and most dangerous terrorists are in the CIA, MI6, KGB, etc… and they all at the disposition of the elite and using our tax dollar to create havoc in various place in the world as well as in USA.
    Next time something happens in the world, think about this before pointing fingers to the people of a country or a specific ethnic or religion.
    Remember divide to conquer, and the best way to divide is by using peoples emotions

  • Jim

    Just picture this:

    There is a military base near, say LA, or Wisconsin for that matter.
    Due to the riots that have occurred there, the military at these based decided to “patrol” the surrounding neighborhoods for “insurgents” or “rebels”, that might cause those riots.
    However, in this instance the military base is a foreign military, say russian, or north korean, or even israelli, for that matter, right here in the middle of the american continent, inside our borders.
    Routinely, these soldiers go on their “patrols” and some women and children get killed. (looking for insurgents, you know), to them, “casualties of “war””!
    What do you think the american people would do?
    Create more insurgents, that’s what. Fight back, that’s what.
    Why is this any different than what we are doing in their countries?
    Iraq never threatened us. Afghanistan never threatened us. Libya never threatened us. War is only constitutionally legal if there is a direct threat to our country.
    The gov’t uses 9/11 as a pretext for these wars, but didn’t the same gov’t tell us that most of the supposed hijackers come from the Saudi’s? Huh?

    • Jim

      p.s.

      Can someone on these forums please explain in plain and simple english why we are in these places?

      • eyeswideopen

        Jim, because the war machine contractors are making huge profits and they don’t want that to stop. Maybe if the college kids would rise up like in the 70′s during the Vietnam war and protest in the streets, the radical right would take notice and stop the tax cuts for the rich and the “permanent war”. It is their future after all is said and done.

        • http://marcum1@wildblue.net coal miner

          eyeswideopen
          In the 60s and 70s they did show a lot of courage and compassion for their fellow man.Maybe that is what we need.

        • Jay

          Its not about huge profits, eye. Its about world domination, dumb dumb!

      • eyeswideopen
        • Jay

          Who profits from the Iraq war? More than a quarter of senators and congressmen have invested at least $196 million of their own money in companies doing business with the Department of Defense (DoD) that profit from the death and destruction in Iraq.

          According to the latest reports, 151 members of Congress invested close to a quarter-billion in companies that received defense contracts of at least $5 million in 2006. These companies got more than $275.6 billion from the government in 2006, or $755 million per day, according to FedSpending.org, a website of the watchdog group OMBWatch.

          Congressmen gave themselves a loophole so they only have to report their assets in broad ranges. Thus, they can be off as much as 160 percent. (Try giving the IRS an estimate like that.) In 2004, the first full year after the present Iraq war began, Republican and Democratic lawmakers—both hawks and doves—invested between $74.9 million and $161.3 million in companies under contract with the DoD. In 2006 Democrats had at least $3.7 million invested in the defense sector alone, compared to the Republicans’ “only” $577,500. As the war raged on, so did the billions of profits—and personal investments by Congress members in war contractors, which increased 5 percent from 2004 to 2006.

          Investments in these contractors yielded Congress members between $15.8 million and $62 million in personal income from 2004 through 2006, through dividends, capital gains, royalties and interest. Sen. John Kerry (D-Mass.) and Rep. James Sensenbrenner (R-Wis.), who are two of Congress’s wealthiest members, were among the lawmakers who garnered the most income from war contractors between 2004 and 2006: Sensenbrenner got at least $3.2 million and Kerry reaped at least $2.6 million.

          Members of the Senate Foreign Relations and Armed Services committees which oversee the Iraq war had between $32 million and $44 million invested in companies with DoD contracts.

          War hawk Sen. Joe Lieberman (IConn.), chairman of the defense-related
          Senate Homeland Security and Governmental Affairs Committee, had at least $51,000 invested in these companies in 2006.

          Sen. Hillary Clinton (D-N.Y.), who voted for Bush’s war, had stock in defense companies, such as Honeywell, Boeing and Raytheon, but sold the stock in May 2007.

          Of the 151 members whose investments are tied to the “defense” (war)
          industry, as far as we know, not one of them offered to donate their bloodstained profits to the national treasury to offset the terrible debt they have imposed. Has one of them even offered to donate one cent of their war profits to lessen the debt that increases more than $1 million a minute?

          When our boys and girls are wounded the government bills them to return their reenlistment bonus. They have to return any pay they received while they were hospitalized. They have to pay for their helmets and uniforms that are destroyed in the hell of war. But they keep on fighting for these politicians’ right to keep their war profits.

          • Sen. John Kerry (D-Mass.) $3,001,006 to $5,015,001
          • Sen. Tom Harkin (D-Iowa) $250,001 to $500,000
          • Rep. Kenny Ewell Marchant (R-Tex.) $162,074 to $162,074
          • Rep. Carolyn B. Maloney (D-N.Y.) $115,002 to $300,000
          • Rep. Rodney Frelinghuysen (R-N.J.) $115,002 to $300,000
          • Rep. Shelley Berkley (D-Nev.) $100,870 to $100,870
          • Rep. James Sensenbrenner Jr. (R-Wis.) $65,646 to $65,646
          • Sen. Jeff Bingaman (D-N.M.) $50,008 to $227,000
          • Rep. Sam Farr (D-Calif.) $50,001 to $100,000
          • Rep. Stephen Ira Cohen (D-Tenn.) $45,003 to $150,000

          http://rinf.com/alt-news/war-terrorism/151-congressmen-profit-from-war/3283/

    • 45caliber

      Jim:

      You said that these people never threatened us. Bin Laden did – and he planned out the attack that killed thousands. So does many others today. They are attacking us because we attacked them first. They aren’t even attacking us because we attacked them at all. They attacked us because we don’t worship the same way they do. Because we have wealth due to our hard work and they don’t. Because we are different than them and therefore deserve to die. And Because we don’t obey their commands.

      Our declaration was to find and kill these people. We found many of them. Women and children get killed? Yes, they do. How many were killed in WWII? And how many of them are killed today? We have gotten much better at preventing their killing but war isn’t a perfect science. At best it is an art.

      So … should we refuse to defend ourselves because we MIGHT harm some innocent person? Should we become slaves as some libs have encouarged? I can remember one (Oliver Stone, I believe it was) who once stated that it was better to live as a slave than it was to risk your life fighting a war.

      Who are the innocent? If I started shooting into a crowd of innocent people, those people would do one of two things – they would run or they would dive to the ground to hope I’d shoot over their heads. If they do not do either of these things, allowing others to shoot from behind them, then they are as guilty as those shooting – there are no innocent people in that group.

      • Dagney

        Well said!

      • DaveH

        The vast majority of the accused 9/11 attackers were from Saudi Arabia. Why did we leave Saudi Arabia alone?
        What did Iraq have to do with that?
        What did Libya have to do with that?

        • eyeswideopen

          DaveH, once again excellent points!

        • http://marcum1@wildblue.net coal miner

          DaveH
          Good post.I agree with you.We can’t be world policemen.

        • 45caliber

          DaveH:

          As to leaving Saudi alone, I don’t know. Politics at a bet. As to attacking Afghanistan? That was where Osama was at the time. And the Taliban refused to give any permission to hunt him. Good justification there.

          As to Iraq? Because George Senior didn’t finish the job the first time. As a result all the Muslims believed that Saddam had defeated us and were rallying behind him to oppose us. So we went in to take him out, particularly because he DID have WMDs. And if you don’t believe that, too bad. He used them on us during the first Gulf War. He shipped most of them to Syria two weeks before we invaded the second time. And our troops have found others buried in the desert that our estimed MSM sort of forgot to tell us about.

          Perhaps this wasn’t a good reason to invade but then, I wasn’t in charge. Were you?

          • DaveH

            If I were, pushy controlling people would have been very upset.

        • http://deleted Claire

          DaveH– Great comment and oh so true.

        • Al Sieber

          Dave, there are 180 countries in the world and we have bases in 130 countries. Syria is next…..

      • eddie47d

        We are slaves to war Caliber and the NWO is are generals.We did indeed occupy these countries before these wars started and their people(19 hijackers) attacked us on 9/11 because of that anger of feeling exploited.We created enemies where there weren’t any and openly endorsed the country where there were (Saudi Arabia).

        • JeffH

          eddie, you may find this piece interesting and enlightening.

          Internal Culture War and Self-hatred in the West Allow Islamic Inroads
          by Andrew Stunich

          The political Right is at least as blameworthy as the Left for the massive transfer of wealth to the Middle East in exchange for oil. That wealth has given the Islamic world the financial wherewithal to spread Islamic doctrine worldwide. It was nothing more than ignorance as to the nature of Islam that allowed such a massive wealth transfer to occur with little, if any, understanding of the long-term implications.

          The overwhelming evidence in Europe reveals that when Muslim immigrants become sufficiently strong, they will oust most other cultural influences and most non-Muslims from any area in which Muslims predominate and they will not only not assimilate, but will seek to turn their host culture into a part of the Islamic world.

          Ask many Westerners when Islam and Christianity first came into conflict and many will ignorantly and adamantly swear it was when the “evil West” attacked “peaceful Muslims” during the Crusades. Leftists ignore or rationalize the hundreds of years of assault on Europe and other civilizations by Islamic invaders leading up to the Crusades.

          http://www.islam-watch.org/Stunich/Culture-War-and-Self-hatred-West-Allow-Islamic-Inroads.htm

        • 45caliber

          eddie:

          I won’t say that WE are slaves to war. Actually we make up our own minds. You don’t like it and – believe it or not – neither do I. The main differences between us is that I see it as necessary at least some of the time and you don’t. I also believe that once we do go in, we shouldn’t stop until we finish it rather than pull out the first time someone decides he is no longer interested. THAT IS THE REASON THE WORLD IS WAITING. They expect us to pull out – which makes the terrorists the winners and everyone knows it.

          The problem is that some people consider war a useful tool – to satisfy greed. And all wars are started by greedy people. Even if they do insist it is due to religion. After all, the religious leaders, at least, are upset about seeing people in other religions give offerings to their god instead of to them. War is also associated with power and with failed diplomacy. It is the hard cash to the diplomat’s credit card.

          We are not slaves to the point that we pant to get involved. I don’t even hate them. If anything, I feel sorry for them because they are too stupid to know their own reasons for fighting.

          But one thing I do know. Every time we have been attacked since Vietnam, they do it expecting us to simply give up and pull out, leaving them the victors. And surprise – they are right.

      • Jim

        45 caliber, your response to my question on the civil war was excellent, Now I have to ask you, 45caliber, do you honestly still believe some rank cave dwellers actually defeated the best intellegence community in the world to pull off 9/11?

        I think if you do due dilligence on the 9/11 issue, you will come to some of the same conclusions as you did in your civil war response, which was right on target!

        I’ll get you started, It’s all about bringing these “rogue” nations under nwo control, nothing more.
        Just as Lincoln’s idea of bringing the Southern states into Federal control.

        • 45caliber

          Jim:

          I do not say that the planning was done by those in Saudi. As to who did it? I don’t really care that much since I’m certain that everyone has their own ideas. However some there, like Osama, do have college degrees and have engaged with the West for a long enough time to have developed some Western traits. I wouldn’t call them cave men. The ones committing the act of 9/11 didn’t require much in the way of intelligence – they only needed to follow orders.

          As for the idea of explosives being in the buildings? No, I do not believe that. As an engineer, I know too much about structures and how they act to believe it would take explosives to bring them down. All it takes is heat. So that part of the theory is totally wrong.

          • Jemave

            You are wrong about the heat alone. If that was the case there would the center columns still standing on their own once the Floors pancake on each others. Bu that was not the case, nothing was standing just a pile of smoldering rubles. In addition, there has been many high rise that have been burning much longer than the WTC towers and did not collapsed. Sorry to challenge your engineering level.
            Go to AE911Truth which is a group of engineer and Architects that have been challenging the conspiracy theory propaganded by the government. Their studies are published on their web sites and clearly dispels the official version. Do yourself and the rest of the humanity, check them out

  • Cawmun Cents

    ITS ALL AMERICA’S FAULT.
    At least thats the line you get from leftists and muslims.
    You are an evil capitalist pig you American idiots.
    That is the message being brought to you by trolls from the ether.

    If you swallow even one drop of that…..you are headed for disaster.There IS a cancer from within the nation.It is called liberalism and its leftist idealisms.

    Yes….just because you are greedy enough to have loved the good life while others suffered,now you must feel the guilt of that brash decision.
    All you have to do is ignore the millions who gave their entire lives to ensure that it happened for you.Just to listen to those who are jealous of your comfort and safety.They are begging for you to eat just one word from a sentence that they write.Then you will be suject to exactly what they wish you to be.Guilt.
    Should you feel guilty for being born an American?
    Your conscious is at stake here.The little angel and devil on your shoulder arguing if you should or should not.
    Everyone else in the world wishes they were in your shoes.
    The proverbial siver spoon in mouth of American citizenship.
    Did the rest of the world suffer greatly for you to have to enjoy the fruits of your labor?Most would claim ….. yep.
    But did they bring the world of technology into existence?
    Not hardly.
    Did they come to evryones rescue whenever the bad people wanted to eat their livers?
    Nope.
    Why not?Because they were in the middle of enjoying whatever comfort zone they were in at the time it was all happening.Same as you.
    But since your comfort zone is the pacific and atlantic oceans,which seperate you from the rest of the world,you are thought of as especially fortunate.
    But also,you have to take into consideration that you are formed from the dregs of all those societies which hate you most.
    The tired,poor,and huddled masses that werent welcome anywhere else.
    They persecuted you before you came here….what makes you think that it stops once you are gone?
    Now they can cast their dispersion against you with impunity from afar.
    Those great nations that brought you so much goodwill towards men.
    So much that you couldnt wait to come here and see what the buzz was about.
    Religious persecution?
    Lifestyles of comfort and the joy of liberty?
    The invention of all modern comforts?Planes trains and automobiles….not to mention refrigeration.Mass manufacturing.The cornerstone of comfort.Yep…that is an American invention.
    What thanks do you get from an ungrateful world?
    Bupkiss.
    They would rather retreat to the seventh century and tell you about how they created modern algebraic formula.
    Big deal….try putting it to work for more than the sultans and caliphs.
    Doubt that you will accomplish that anytime soon.
    Afghanistan is burning but I dont see the muslim brothrhood stepping up to build schools and infastructure there.
    Plenty in Dubai though.
    Funny how that works.
    But you as an American had better feel guilty that the Arabs havent helped their bretheren out of abject poverty.Its all because you are too greedy and have millions of people living well under a Constitution that pretty much guarantees what the ruling Arabs would never let you have.
    Unless you were to become Muslim.In which case then you would be entitled to being treated much like other Arab nations have been since OPEC was formed.
    Or better yet you could live in the utopian world of Europe,who cannot seem to protect her own citizens from the evils of corruption.
    The socialist governments which are currently doing such a great job…kepping theircitizens with employment,are such a vast improvement over your American way of life.
    Just look at the shows on tv that show you how beautiful it is in Europe.
    But if war comes….everyone bend over and watch how the beauty turns into fecal matter right before your eyes.Even if a European would be caught dead defeding his nation,he probably doest nave his own available resources to do so.
    He must therefore depend on his tax-rich socialistic government to do so.
    God forbid that ever happens here……-CC.

    • 45caliber

      I agree with you.

      My folks figured an annual income of $5,000 was a very good income. I joined the Army and went to Vietnam to earn the right to draw the education allowance the military gave us for college. I worked summers, saving all I could, and I worked evenings and weekends to pay for the things that the veterans school money didn’t. I finally graduated as a mechanical engineer and got a job. I worked for over forty years at that before I finally got out of debt and had enough money to pay my bills and save some.

      So why should I feel badly about someone who refused to get an education – even as far as high school where it was free – and therefore doesn’t live as well as I do? He/she could easily have done the same thing. “But that’s too hard!” Yes, it was. It still doesn’t stop them from doing it.

      And because I did do it, I don’t feel any sympathy at allfor those who refuse to get an education, refuse to get a job, and then try to insist that I “owe” them a living.

      • Karolyn

        45 – We are not all the same. We all have different paths; and we are our brother’s keeper.

        • Jim

          BS!!

        • Jim

          I refuse to AGREE to pay generation after generation of welfare queens and kings. (it’s taken at gunpoint, i.e. theft)
          When I was in school, from 1st through 12th, the playing field was as level as can be. You saw who was going to be on the dole then, we were just too young to understand it at the time.

        • 45caliber

          Karolyn:

          I still stand by my statement. Yes, we are not all the same and you are certainly welcome to do what you can to help those who refuse to help themselves. But we are NOT our brother’s keeper when our brother refuses to even bother to help himself. Even Jesus agreed to that, if I remember my Bible correctly. I know Paul stated the same.

          I do help those who need help because of age or disability. But those who are healthy and simply refuse to work? As far as I’m concerned, they can starve.

          • Karolyn

            Because someone doesn’t work makes them less of a human being? I still like the story of the shakers who in the winter would share whatever they had with those who did not work for it just because they were children of God.

          • 45caliber

            Karolyn:

            I didn’t say “doesn’t work”. I said “refuses to work”. Totally different things.

        • http://deleted Claire

          Whatever happened to this adage?? “The good Lord helps those that help themselves.” People have to WANT to help themselves FIRST. We do have too many leeeches in this nation, bilking the US for whatever they can get out of it. The entire welfare system needs a good cleaning-up and I would be the one to do it. Pumping out babies for extra money doesn’t cut it with me. Same goes with the foster care system. A lot of people foster children and they get PAID for it and this is the only reason why some people do it. I prefer the “honest poor.”

          • http://deleted Claire

            Oops– leeches — tough day at the office

          • Karolyn

            Claire – They do not keep getting money for “pumping out” babies. Yes, they do get Food Stamps, but you can’t hurt the child for the sins of the parents. And there is a limit on the amount of time anyone can be on welfare. I posted the site before with all of the states and their limitations. I do believe that more can be done to weed out the bad apples, but the baby shouldn’t be thrown out with the bathwater.

          • libertytrain

            I agree with you. There’s a time to help and a time to help them remember they need to help themselves but not at the welfare office.

          • Jay

            Karolyn: but you can’t hurt the child for the sins of the parents.

            What then, do you call abortion? $$$$$$$$$$$

          • http://deleted Claire

            Babies and children always suffer for the sins of their parents in situations such as this.

          • eyeswideopen

            Claire, with the repubs trying to close down Planned Parenthood, you will have a lot more babies pumped out than you have now. Repubs don’t want you to be able to control when and if you have children. What happened to getting government out of our business? I guess they only want government involved when they want to enforce something they want. Hypocritical don’t you think?

          • eyeswideopen
          • Jay

            eyes, are you totally clued out? Abortion is no longer necessary to keep the population down, and therefore, planned parenthood is no longer necessary. It seems the powers that be, have come up with more creative, and less expensive, methods of population control, or should i say; more creative forms of genocide!

        • Nadzieja Batki

          Karolyn, where did you get the idea we are our brother’s keeper? It was Cain’s snotty answer to GOD after Cain killed Abel and GOD confronted him.

  • 45caliber

    The main problem is not that we can’t win … it is that our politicians choose to not win.

    To win you must destroy your enemy’s will to fight. Instead, our politicians reward the enemy and encourage them by ridiculing our military, punishing soldiers who dare to defend themselves, and providing billions of dollars to “rebuild” their countries and their infastructures.

    What we should be doing is when we are attacked, to go in and completely smash the country. Destroy all the infrastructure; total the electrical power systems, etc. Find the ones we are hunting and wipe them out.

    Then we pull out. But before we do we make sure that every person in the country knows that the only reason we came in was to eliminate the world threat that the people had allowed to grow unchecked in their midst.

    And then we need to point out that if they do it again, we will come back and REALLY mess up the country next time!

  • Jose Alvarez

    The biggest threat is not government, it is corporatism and plutocrats such as Koch Industries who LOVE war while decrying war. They call Obama Saddam Hussein who needs to be taken out in the “mother of all wars” in 2012. They are the domestic enemies who need to be taken out- them and their right wing fascist enablers.

    • Dagney

      LOL, deluded much?

      • Tim

        I guess you’re about as deluded as they come.

  • James

    10 years? That is only the civilian side of the war. We have been fighting WW4 ever since the Persians attacked our embassy in 1979. No one kept count when it was just government employees and the military getting killed. We will continue to fight this war and what is truly behind it til the day that Jesus Christ is sitting on the throne in Jerusalem. Islam the invention of Satan will continue its conquest of the world until it fails with the appearance of the AntiChrist and then you will understand who is really running the show. Get right with the true GOD before it is too late.

  • john

    I don’t believe we where attacked by anyone.The twin towers where demolitioned down.The buildings fell at the speed of gravity no resistance.I have spent many many hours researching it out.I am totally convinced.Research it out.They fell the same way.Even building 7.

    • FreedomFighter
    • 45caliber

      john:

      As an engineer, I’ve had to study the affects of heat on steel. Then I spent the last forty years dealing with those problems. There were no demolitions used or needed to drop those buildings. You can believe what you wish but all it takes is sustained heat – and there was plenty of that in both buildings.

      Just as a note, demolitions require placement and ignition. Placement in the right places could not be done after a building is finished without extensive work to expose the correct columns. That’s why it takes demolition companies weeks to prepare a building to fall before they can install the explosives and set them off. Since both buildings were in use, that could not have been done.

      Second, since explosives have a life span before they either become obsolete and won’t work or will explode on their own, they couldn’t have been installed during construction. The buildings couldn’t have lasted that long.

      Nor could they have been installed after the planes struck. The heat was far too bad for anyone to try. The explosives would have gone off in their hands.

      Finally, the collapse came about some time after the planes struck. Explosives would have have blown up immediately upon impact.

      You need to study the correct engineering and explosive texts rather than someone’s theory – which is wrong.

      And that’s all I’m going to say on this matter today.

      • Jemave

        Bush’s brother company was in charge of the WTC security. They had plenty of time to do the job unnoticed.

        • 45caliber

          Jemave”

          The only way you can reach the columns to plant explosives is to tear out all the walls. Not done.

  • JON

    If we had never been there or Iraq in the first place, we wouldn’t have to be worrying about it…or the trillions of our tax dollars and money borrowed from other countries. Thanks Bush!

    • Roger Davies

      Jon:
      Are you familiar with the Marine Corps (that’s pronounced kor) Anthem? “…from the halls of Mantazuma to the shores of Tripolli…” We have been fighting Islam ever since!
      But, you would rather blame Bush. Idiot!

      • eddie47d

        Because Bush does share the blame or do you care to notice.Now Tripoli at that time was run by pirates and there wasn’t a stable government to contend with.Kind of like what is going on with the Somalia pirates and no stable government. Some actions work and some don’t and we shouldn’t attack unless we are attacked. The Barbary pirates shouldn’t be used as an excuse for further wars which you seem to be implying.

      • Thinking About

        Bubba you got a problem and all the whining and crying about GWB getting blamed will not change the fact it was his decision to go into Iraq. Such it up and deal with reality.

      • Jay

        Bush was only one of the players. There are many more who’s names are never spoken!

    • 45caliber

      All of you complaining about the war there – who started it?

      It started when the terrorists blew up the towers.

      Were you ready to ignore that – just as you ignored the dozen or so other attacks that came earlier on Americans, etc? Did you want us to totally ignore the attack? Or did you want us to immediately surrender to them?

      We hit Afghanistan because Osama was there. We hit Iraq because Saddam decided to give the terrorists sanctuary. I think we wasted money and lives in Libya. I wonder seriously about Syria, Iran, and Pakistan since they all harbor and support other terrorists including some of those who planned out the attacks on us.

      So – what do you want to do? Ignore them and let them attack us again or surrender?

      • 45caliber

        Hummmm….

        I see no one answered. That tells me a lot in itself.

        • Jay

          45, the so-called terrorists/boogeyman/AlQaeda, the instrument of the CIA, was allowed to commit the act! If that were not so, then why, after 10 years, are we still in the middle east, and advancing? How much revenge, and blood shed till we are satisfied? No, 9/11 was allowed, in order to pave the way to world domination. And the American military is being used for the nefarious purpose! Hate to break it to you buddy, but our own government, and security agencies, sold us out!

  • Roger Davies

    Understand; ISLAM IS NOT COMPATIBLE WITH AMERICAN VALUES!!!! Read the Karan!!!!
    Jamal: If you don’t like that, GO AWAY!!!

    • 45caliber

      I wonder how many of those here insisting we are wrong to fight back are Muslims?

  • Tim

    No, you cannot win a war against terror. The very idea is ridiculous. Thanks to Bush/Cheney, we are in way over our heads and all of the tough, patriotic talk in the world isn’t going to change things. I guess we can thank the Supreme Court for installing Bush/Cheney in office. So no matter how much you dislike President Obama, he had nothing to do with starting these wars that can never be won. I think it’s about time to hold the right people responsible. Oh and by the way, Saddam Hussein had nothing to do with 911 or the terrorists. He was just a tyrant, and Bush/Cheney were ready to seize any opportunity to invade Iraq.

    • eyeswideopen

      Tim, you are correct. It is not one country who is a terrorist, it cannot be won with wars. No where in the Bible, does God advocate declaring wars on non-Christians. We are supposed to live a life of an example of Christ and he didn’t promote killing as a way to get people to Christianity. Have you ever thought that maybe Christians are envious of the respect the Islam religion shows their God, by stopping and praying so often during the day? How many Christians do you know that stop everyday and publicly show their love for God? We need to clean our own house before trying to clean anothers.

      • 45caliber

        eyes:

        You better read your Bible again. God ordered Jacob to make war against all those in the Holy Land and destroy them completely. God was a little ticked when some didn’t. And none of them were believers or worshippers of God. So your statement is totally wrong.

      • Kate8

        eyes – Muslims, with their rigid practices, are not unlike the Pharasees, whom Yeshua condemned for their legalism.

        Yeshua taught that we can’t gain entrance to heaven by works or by rituals, nor by loud prayer in “righteous” displays. These things are meaningless.

        It is what’s in our hearts, how much we love our fellow man, and how we honor God by our faith. Loving actions naturally spring forth when we love God.

        He told us that we could discern a man’s heart by his fruits. I don’t see much in the fruits of Islam that speaks of love.

        Also, God has always promised that those who practice evil will meet with His Wrath. He did command the slaughter of those who were so enmeshed in evil hearts and deeds that they had to be erased lest their evil continue to spread.

        • eyeswideopen

          Kate8, I haven’t defended the Muslims, I merely gave info on why they may hate us, and maybe there is some resentment from Chrisitians for the practice of praying to their God many times during the day. I am not defending them.

          • Kate8

            eyes – That doesn’t even make sense. Why would anyone resent them for praying? I don’t care if they spend their whole day bowing to Mecca. It is still meaningless ritual.

            Before they began to invade this country, no one cared about their religion. People don’t shun them because they have a different religion…there are many, like Buddhists, who fit right in. They are shunned because they are feared for their beliefs.

            Look at how they behave around the world. Look at what their stated goals are, and how they use the laws of our nation to their own advantage, to force themselves into our system and our schools, even though their ideology is diametrically opposed to American culture.

            Stop with the utopian mindset for a moment and look at the situation rationally. We SHOULD fear them. They intend to conquer and subjugate us. We fear for our children.

  • Patriot

    At least Obama killed OBL. You have to give him credit for that.

    We obtained a lot of valuable info from the raid and have been killing numerous bad guys. That’s a good thing.

    • Ret

      But did he???
      This is a 2007 video of Benazir Bhutto’s interview with David Frost, when she named Bin Laden’s assassin. Hmmm….

      http://beforeitsnews.com/story/604/187/Murdered_Benazir_Bhutto_talks_about_the_murder_of_Osama_Bin_Laden_on_a_2007_tape..html

      • 45caliber

        Ret:

        Bin Laden’s “assassin”?

        How about the using the correct word – “executioner”.

    • Jeep

      I thought that was SEAL Team Six that KIA’ed Osama? Hmmm…did the prez take a side trip while he was on vacation to Pakistan?

      • eddie47d

        You know darn well what he meant wiseguy.

        • Jeep

          I know, I know…I just couldn’t help myself!

    • 45caliber

      Patriot:

      Actually from all I’ve heard, Oblama was PO’d that the military went in and killed Osama. He certainly didn’t do it!

  • Alex

    President Barack Hussein Obama does not have “ebony” fingers—you should look the word up.

    Look, the Bush Regime ignored intelligence that specifically warned of Al Qaeda intentions to fly passenger aircraft into skyscrapers and thus allowed the horrors of 911 to unfold in a much more devastating manner than they would have had those in charge had done their job.

    Though he promised to look through “every hole in Afghanistan” until Osama bin Laden was found, Bush gave up trying to find him and instead threw over 5000 of your children into a mass grave in Iraq—and you Reich Wingers are STILL whining about a birth certificate! FIVE THOUSAND dead young mercenaries and nearly all of you accept that—a war woven from whole cloth! Shameless!

    PS—While he cannot, of course, take credit for killing bin Laden, it did happen on Obama’s watch, along with the high number of top Al Qaeda operatives taken out since then, and President Obama did not ignore the terrorists in order to start a war against a non-enemy in order to fatten the wallets of Halliburton, KBR, Blackwater, etc.

    • Ret
    • Tim

      Right you are , Alex. BRAVO!

    • Jeep

      Alex, you are correct that warnings were ignored…along with the thousands of other warnings received through intelligance networks of varying veracity. Maybe you should be in charge of the crystal ball and decide which warnings are credible, and which are not.

      And, as I have asked you before, would you please take your sorry butt to Fort Bragg and call the next steely eyed, flat bellied Amercan paratrooper a “mercenary”. I am sure you will appreciate the patriotic response you receive.

      • 45caliber

        Jeep:

        Good reply. In fact, I’d like to see him go to ANY military post and call one of the people he finds there a “mercenary”. That includes any of the female soldiers. It would be funny to see him get his rear kicked by a woman half his size.

        • Kate8

          45 – I believe that the majority of our military men are of the highest order, and are sincere in their endeavors.

          However, they are unwittingly being used as pawns by those who are in a quest for world domination.

          From things I’ve heard, many of our soldiers are beginning to catch on.

        • Jeep

          I hope you get this 45…man, I laughed out loud! That was too funny, kudos my friend!

  • Stunned at sunset

    The establishment hasn’t run out of things for us to be afraid of. They’ve manufactured a nice little war down on the Mexican border by instructing ATF agents to ferry guns to the drug cartels. Now we have Hispanic crazies to worry about.

    The other night I watched a special on drug cartel “submarines.” It was impressive when they showed a fully submersible submarine with all of the major operational systems intact and, get this, made from common items you could buy in Home Depot! I was in the submarine service for six years so, I’ve got to tell you, Naval Engineers have done a great job educating drug cartels on how to build a drug-running submarine.

    But, in the narrative I heard the much-expected reference: “…drug cartels are smuggling tons of drugs into the U.S. with these submarines. The question is, what else can they smuggle?”

    Right, now their trying to convince me that a Drug Baron is going to allow Al Qaeda to ruin his Marketplace. Do these planners, shakers, and movers really understand how a “mobster” thinks? If I were Al Qaeda, I’d think twice about screwing around with a Columbian Drug Cartel’s “territory.” But, I’m sure the government will come up with something even better to worry about.

    Progress with a vengeance.

    • Sheldon

      Drugs are a supply and demand business. Want to stop drug traffickers? Stop using drugs. That harmless joint that people smoke… still puts a law enforcement officer’s life in jeopardy. I believe it’s selfish act on the user’s part.

      If people must use pot… let them grow it in small quantities for personal use or sell it like cigarettes and tax it. Either way you would eliminate the criminal element for what is a large part of the drug trade.

      • 45caliber

        Sheldon:

        I completely agree. In fact, there is a sherrif in the SW that arrests everyone he sees with drugs. He says, “there is no such things as someone who can quit drugs when he likes. They are all hooked. They simply don’t use as often as they will later in life. And the longer we let them go, the worse they will get.”

        • Karolyn

          Right, and arresting them really helps. NOT! Arresting addicts only puts them in contact with worse people to affect them. If more of the money spent on incarceration was spent on education and rehabilitation, a dent could be made in drug usage. Fear does not stop an addict. And anybody who thinks they are better than them doesn’t know what they are talking about. Addiction will never be wiped out.

          • 45caliber

            Oh. THAT’s your problem, huh?

          • Jay

            Karolyn: Addiction will never be wiped out.

            Of course it can. We can wipe out addiction by wiping out the drug dealers!

  • chuckb

    eyes, as usual, you interpret things to your belief. the jews and muslims hate each other. in each of their doctrine they preach the destruction of each other including the christians unless they submit and join. in fact i don’t think the jews want to give anyone the choice of joining, something like off with their head to all goyim’s and muslim.
    yes the islamic religion is very peaceful and loving. just count how many people they have blown to smitherines over the years. they love their permissive wifes, ask any of them that may have crossed their huwbands. (baloney) all in the name of their allah.
    and to think, your messiah sitting in the white house is super sensitive to the muslims, doesn’t that make you feel tingly all over.

    what you say is pure unadulterated garbage.

    • eddie47d

      Could it be the Christian Crusades for a reason the Muslims despise foreigners who are still in their lands.Sadly few Jews lived in that area during the Crusades but they now have to take the brunt of Arab scorn even for our present day actions.

      • JeffH

        eddie, read up on the history of Islamic Muslim violence…it all started way before the Crusades.

        The Crusades were a “counter-attack” on Islam—not an unprovoked assault as is often depicted by revisionist history. A united Christendom sought to annex the Holy Land of Jerusalem, which, prior to its conquest by Islam in the 7th century, was an integral part of Christendom for nearly 400 years.

        Moreover, Muslim invasions and atrocities against Christians were on the rise in the decades before the Crusades were launched in 1096.
        http://www.meforum.org/2105/judeo-christian-violence-vs-islamic-violence

        • Kate8

          JeffH – It is so obvious now how history has been rewritten to change attitudes against Christians, and for Muslims, as we know now that there has been an agenda behind it.

          You are correct. Muslims were plundering and slaughtering their way across Europe, and Christendom started fighting back. The same happened in recent Kosovo, where Muslim onslaught was threatening and slaughtering the Christian majority, trying to achieve domination. Milosevich was desperately trying to defend his people, but Clinton sent in troops to aid the Islamic raiders and quash the Christian resistance, giving Islam another victory.

          It’s amazing how Muslims are always able to sway public opinion in their favor, even though they are the aggressors. Of course, they have a lot of help from anti-Christian corners.

          • eddie47d

            I don’t believe that the Muslims were slaughtering the Christians (Milosevic)in the Kosovo conflict. I think it was distinctly the other way around. The Muslims did take over that region 500 years earlier and I would agree they weren’t too nice. That only shows how revenge is carried on over centuries by both sides.

          • JeffH

            Kate8 :)…revisionist history…I just searched for this and found several creditable websites that explained the history of the Crusades and Islam violence and voila…I’m just gratefull that I discovered PLD and met all of you good like minded people…learn something new almost every day… :)

          • Kate8

            JeffH – If you are anything like me, I just always had the feeling that, somehow, the whole story of the Crusades didn’t really add up. Something just didn’t seem to make sense. That is when I began to really look into it.

            Unfortunately, so many minds have been poisoned by Progressive revisionists that they may never accept the truth. That is another means by which the world has been turned upside down.

          • JeffH

            Kate8, to be honest I never really gave it much thought until today. I’ve also learned not to believe everything I hear(go figure)…validate and don’t speak out of ignorance. Opinions are one thing but stating facts is another…that’s where this revisionist history comes in…Lincoln? Never thought of him as a tyrant before I got here…Now I’m sure he was and not just because somebody else said so. Keep up the good work…you’ve really been on a good roll and it’s all much appreciated and doesn’t go un-noticed.

          • Sheldon

            It’s all there in the history books… although it was never taught in school. It seems a bunch of guys named Charles saved Europe from falling to Muslim armies.

            If it wasn’t for Charles “the Hammer” Martel’s military genius in winning the “Battle of Tours” against the Muslim army France would be an Islamic country.

            Charles Martel’s grandson, Charles the Great or Charlemagne won numerous battles against the Moors and Saracen pirates, liberating parts of Europe.

            Charles V won the final and decisive battle against the Ottoman Empire in Vienna which stopped the Muslim invasion and rule in Eastern Europe. It was so decisive that the Ottomans retreated leaving behind bags and bags of coffee beans. The victors eventually figured out what to do with the coffee beans and Viennese coffee eventually became popular throughout Europe.

            Read up on these great men named Charles and find out what you might not have learned about in history class.

            Islam has always been about conquest and spreading the religion. Christianity has been too, to a lesser degree, but missionary work has been a factor as well.

          • http://marcum1@wildblue.net coal miner

            Kate8

            A cosmic religion
            “The religion of the future will be a cosmic religion. It should transcend a personal God and avoid dogmas and theology. Covering both the natural and the spiritual, it should be based on a religious sense arising from the experience of all things, natural and spiritual, as a meaningful unity. Buddhism answers this description.”

            Albert Einstein

          • Jay

            coal, the cosmic religion you speak of is already here. In fact, its been here since the “liar”, satan, first spoke his first lie: “Ye shall be as god’s”! Ha, ha, ha, i get a chuckle every time i read that! But, as Solomon said: “There is nothing new under the sun”! Sorry coal…

    • eyeswideopen

      chuckb, this will interest you.http://gbgm-umc.org/umw/bible/crusades.stm

      • 45caliber

        Somehow I missed serving in the Crusades. Perhaps it was because they occurred a thousand years ago?

        So they didn’t like the Crusades. So what. The Civil War is a lot closer to me – and I don’t feel that we need to go wipe out all the Northern people because many of them mistreated and murdered many of those in the South. Don’t believe they did? Read about Sherman’s March. Even the black slaves were trying to defend themselves! But that happened about 150 years ago – so why should I hate those today that werent’ involved then?

        Any reference to them hating us over the Crusades is ridiculous. Even if they do hate us for that. Besides, didn’t Salladin WIN? So why should they still be upset with us now?

        It all comes back to their religion. Incidently, if they can get upset about the Christian Crusades, I can get upset about the Islamic Crusades. But they don’t talk a lot about those now, do they? Why do you think there are Muslims living in Bosnia today? The original Muslim Crusade there exterminated all the Christians they could find (after rape and torture) so they could plant their colonies there.

        If you are going to try to tell the story – tell ALL of it.

  • chuckb

    it’s their religion eddie, they want to encompass the whole world with islam, they are immigrating into every country possible, hoping in the end to set up sharia law

    eddie saya,
    “Sadly few Jews lived in that area during the Crusades but they now have to take the brunt of Arab scorn even for our present day actions.”

    come on, you know better than that. our offensive in the middle east is to protect the jews. our invasion of iraq was to protect israel, there is no other reason.

    • Jeep

      Does it feel good to be an armchair quarterback? It amazes me how everyone “knows” the “real reason” we invaded Iraq, or why we are fighting in Afghanistan. If you only could get past your own blinders, you would see that there are a number of reasons we are where we are. Some are good reasons, like hunting down terrorists intent on making war with the west. Some are bad reasons, like “finishing” the war with Iraq. Some are so stupid, like fighting for oil, they should be ignored.

      Almost everyone here and elsewhere are blogging about something you have never put much thought into. Not only have you never thought through the problem, many of you have no idea about the real cost of this war, or any war. You start to form your opinions based on what the media and other bloggers say. Then you bend it towards your own political leanings, right or left. Some of our old vets even apply their Vietnam experience to this fight. There are even a few freaks who blame the young American soldier patrolling the streets of Kabul.

      The rhetoric from both sides, left and right, is deafening. And, it is silly to the point of being laughable. But, please, by all means hold tight to your beliefs and blame the “other guy” for our current fight. Your ignorance fits you well.

      The fact is that at the turn of this century the United States was already threatened and had been attacked a number of times by extremists who happen to Muslim. Why us? You can go back to the Crusades if you like, but does it matter? They don’t like us now and many have vowed to destroy us.

      Given that an unstable Middle East is bad for everyone, those responsible operate across borders around the world, and that an attack occured on 9/11 of such magnitude that it could not be ignored, what is your response? Go ahead, you people are so good at second guessing, make the call.

      In the meantime, there are those of us who will continue to hunt down the bad guys around the world so you can type in your blog and go to sleep in peace. Perhaps we shouldn’t hunt them and let them come to your neighborhood?

      • eyeswideopen

        Jeep, maybe this will give you some insight as to why they hate us.http://gbgm-umc.org/umw/bible/crusades.stm

        • Cawmun Cents

          I think they hate you because your problem is obvious.
          They may hate me….but it is for different reasons.
          Whereas you are clearly in a state of hatred of your own kind and country,a muslim would see you as the first to kill because of your lack of loyalty to anything but complaint.
          He might hate me because I anm an infidel.
          But he would hold contempt for you,because he couldnt accurately ascertain just exactly what you are.
          You are basically a voice saying nothing.
          Defending the weakest position possible,for the sake of defending the weakest positon possible.
          That ewo……is why you would be the first on the head sawed off with a dull blade tour.
          He would likely appreciate me as I do him for the tenacity of believing in something worthwhile.
          But you show no such alacrity in your decision making processes.
          I would die in battle.
          You would die like cattle. But forst it must be understood that I have not a care in the world about why he is angry with me.
          He desires to kill me…so he must die.(notice the period at the end of that sentence)
          His reasoning for desiring to see me dead doesnt matter,because it is a condition of the position he takes against me and my nation.
          To me it doesnt matter if he thinks he has a legitmate bitch.He wants to see me die….so he must go first.
          It you see….is the only sane position to take when someone desires to kill you.
          Even the stupidest muslims know that much.
          But apparently the smartest liberals do not.
          Hmmmm.
          That says alot to a muslim about your convictions.
          That you will argue his side,despite not being muslim would be considered traitorous by his standards.
          Ergo you must be eliinated in the most brutal way possible(probably stoning)so that his contempt for you could be well noted by others.You tend to argue his point…so you get the most brutal death.
          At least those who stand against him are seen as someone who stands for something.
          There is some honor in that.
          What do you have?
          -CC.

          • Kate8

            C C – Wow. That was profound. Bravo!

            And very well said.

            Likewise, the useful idiot liberals will be among the first to be eliminated here, as well, as they turn on their own countrymen. When their votes are no longer needed, they will become useless baggage.

          • Jeep

            CC, Kudos my friend. I only wish I had your wit! That was a well written post, straightforward and to the point.

          • eyeswideopen

            Cawmum Cents, once again, I am not arguing any side, just giving facts of history that might show why they hate us. You are a true hater and the sad thing is that you hate me, a fellow Chrisitan American as much as you hate the Muslims.

          • Kate8

            eyes – That old “H” word rears its ugly head, again.

            It’s what you people always hurl when you come up against anyone who dares speak the truth.

            Haven’t we about worn it out yet?

          • Cawmun Cents

            EWO….Your lonk proves my point completely.We have as much a right to hate as they do.In fact,likely,far more.This line from the link you posted:
            “Just as the number and frequency of pilgrimages to Jerusalem was at new peaks, the Seljuk Turks took over control of Jerusalem and prevented pilgrimages.”
            Now imagine if you will that Christians prevented pilgramage to Mecca.Though it never happened,it would mean all out Jihad for Muslims everywhere.
            But your double standard of contrite backside smooching for an obviously mistaken bunch of lost souls,has blinded you to the fact that they would want to kill us regardless,because that is what their false god(not the same as ours by the way)Allah,has commanded them to do by the false prophet Muhammed.
            There I said it.
            The truth.
            So if they are pissed off at us,just remember that they brought these conditions upon themselves as a result of their actions.Christians just did not decide to take their lives in jeapordy for mnothing.They wanted to be able to make pilgramages like the Muslims do.
            Hello.McFly….any of this getting through?
            Their bitch is that Christians got tired of them dictating the terms.
            Sound familiar?
            Now that they no longer dictate the terms to us,they want jihad.
            So I say….give it to them.
            Let them eat lead.
            Am I going to sit idly by and let bedouin goatherders dictate to me?Not bloody likely,mate.
            So if you choose to want to see their side of the issue…by all means,smooch that goatherder backside.
            But dont berate me for choosing not to.
            I have better things to do with my time.-CC.

        • Jeep

          EWO, that is all well and good information. But, if you asked a dozen jihadists the “why” question, you would get a dozen differing answers. I know, I have asked some of them. In the Quran the same verses are used to condemn non-believers in Afghanistan that are used by American Muslims to justify living amongst the dhimmi. It is my contention, and I believe the point CC was making as well, that we can argue as to the causes that brought us into conflict with many jihadist factions, but in the end we will either have to hunt them down or let them harm our people. There are no words that will change the minds of a few really bad people that are intent on striking at America. They cannot be reasoned with, they cannot be bought off, you cannot send them “love” and expect them to not cut off your head. American politics and meddling or history may have started this war, but by the grace of God I plan to finish it no matter how long or difficult. The alternative is to live in fear or outright attack by those sworn to it.

      • 45caliber

        Jeep: I agree.

        eyes: See my comment to your stupid post above.

        • JeffH

          45caliber, I agree with Jeep also…see my post below about: Islam, Violence and History

          Islamic violence started hundreds of years before the crusades…imagine that?

          • http://deleted Claire

            JeffH– I am almost through editing a manuscript on Criminal Psychology. This manuscript was written by numerous authors from several different countries. There are 26 chapters in this manuscript and several chapters cover terrorism. The cruelty and the insanity of the muslim/islam beliefs is almost unbelievable, even though I know it to be true. I am concerned for America, it seems we are on a downhill path to destruction in so many ways. I am concerned for the radicalism we have within our own political parties, I have the gut feeling that they are not and will not be doing America and her people any favors. I am trying to have an objective outlook but it is not working. To me it is almost like an “ill wind” that is blowing bad.

          • JeffH

            Claire, unfortunately I agree…the Muslims are not our friends, barring a few, but deceit is an approved part of their religion. Also, I’m sure you are aware that some of the European countries are starting to realize the same thing as is Australia.

        • Jeep

          Thank you 45, I stand with you, my brother, and thank you for paving the way to a strong military that is capable and steadfast.

    • JeffH

      The Crusades did not begin until the 11th century.

      Islam, Violence and History…History reveals that over the centuries, Islamists have systemically attacked any nation that did not practice their religion. The simple fact that a country was not Islamic was enough to justify launching an assault on it.

      It started with the birth of the religion in the seventh century, for Mohammed violently imposed his will on Arabia. In the immediate decades after his death, Muslim armies subdued the rest of the Middle East.

      Then, they attacked the fringes of the Western world as they tried to overrun the Byzantine Empire in the mid seventh century.

      After that, they set their sights on southern Europe and in the eighth century, Arab armies invaded Spain and Portugal. That aggression went on for almost 800 years.

      In the ninth century they attacked Italy and took over Sicily. Fortunately, their presence there did not last as long as in the Iberian Peninsula and a century later they were expelled.

      Almost simultaneously to the attacks on the West, were those in the East. In the early eighth century, they invaded the north of India and during the following centuries they pierced further into the South Asian subcontinent.

      Since that creed ultimately demands from its followers that all the inhabitants of the world be converted to Islam, Muslim leaders were not satisfied with South Asia. Soon after, their armies were once again on the march and they went into Central Asia, China, and Southeast Asia.
      http://mostviolent.com/602317-Islam-Violence-and-History.html

      • http://deleted Claire

        JeffH–Sorry–this is so off the subject but I had to tell you. Vinnie won this past weekend in Iowa. A few more points and he will be a champion. It was my little girl’s first show–she took Reserve. She was the youngest-in the 6-9 month puppy class. At least by taking Reserve she placed over the other adult females. I was so proud of her!! She is a doll. Looks just like her grandma-Sandra Dee.

        • JeffH

          Claire, that is fantastic. Congratulations. I just spent a few days with my dad up in Vallejo, Ca and told him all about you and your family, the whole family, and you and your sons wonderfull shorthairs…we hashed over a lot of old times from the start of our first show shorthair “Fritz” right through all of the years hunting and field trialing with shorthairs. Lets see, there was Pepper, Bob-O-Link, Burgie, Zipper and a couple others I ca’t remember. Great times and great memories.

          • http://deleted Claire

            JeffH– Thank you! Bob and I had a good time, it was even better since Vinnie won. Abby, the little girl, is so sweet. BTW, gas was $2.59 in Iowa, in Illinois it was $3.79 over the weekend. Our van got 24 miles to the gallon which I thought was okay since we were loaded down. Egads, going to dog shows is like moving day. I am glad you visited with your Dad. Great times and good memories equal having a Shorthair, or any dog! Bob visited with the guys and all they talked about was hunting. Bob sure enjoyed himself. We head for Kenosha, WI this weekend. Sure hope Vinnie wins but who knows. Different day, different judges.

          • http://deleted Claire

            Ooops!! A typo! Gas was $3.59 in Iowa, not $2.59

        • libertytrain

          Claire good for you!

          • http://deleted Claire

            libertytrain– Thank you! I’ll be sending you an email….

        • Karolyn

          Claire – Congratulations to your babies and to you!

          • http://deleted Claire

            Karolyn: Thank you too! It was great fun.

      • Jeep

        JeffH, it is interesting to note that after regaining their country Spain was broke. Isabella was looking for another source of income and Columbus was more than willing to oblige. So, should we thank the invaders for indirectly opening up the Americas? LOL

        • JeffH

          Jeep, good point! :)

  • jopa

    This article by John Myers reminds me of the Mi Lai massacre of Vietnam.A few of the troops made news with the massacre but all the troops coming home paid the price and were called murderers and baby killers.Mr. Myers blames all of the Muslims of the world for 911 when it was only a handful that took down the towers on Bushes watch.Do you remember the guy that put in the Patriot Act? GWB.

  • 45caliber

    jopa:

    A interesting things about Mi Lai …

    All three of the “witnesses” were paid $50,000 in gold bullion to testify against Cally. All three had also been previously courtmaritaled (or at least disciplined) by him as well. And the report came after the MSM lost their big story about the Detroit Riots when the 101st Airborne went in and made the rioters go home. That upset them big time.

    And we were called “baby killers” a long time before Mi Lai went down.

  • chuckb

    eyes,

    the crusades have nothing to do with hatred, they have everything to do with kings and popes. they wanted to remove the muslims from the city of god and reclaim the area where jesus christ was born.
    the religion of islam “the qur’an and the jewish talmud call for the death and removql of all christians and each other:

    talmud”

    God has given the Jews power over the possessions and blood of all nations.” Seph. Jp. 92,

    “Even the best of the Goyim must be killed.” Abodah Zara 26b, Tosefoth

    the qur’an, alls for the death of all infidels unless they accept islam.

    • JeffH

      chuckb…here is an interesting read.

      Conflating History with Theology
      Judeo-Christian Violence vs. Islamic Violence

      To be sure, the Crusades were a “counter-attack” on Islam—not an unprovoked assault as is often depicted by revisionist history. A united Christendom sought to annex the Holy Land of Jerusalem, which, prior to its conquest by Islam in the 7th century, was an integral part of Christendom for nearly 400 years.

      Moreover, Muslim invasions and atrocities against Christians were on the rise in the decades before the Crusades were launched in 1096. For example, in 1071, the Seljuk Turks had crushed the Byzantines in the pivotal battle of Manzikert and in effect annexed a major chunk of Byzantine Anatolia (opening the way for the eventual capture of Constantinople centuries later). A few decades earlier, the Fatimid caliph al-Hakim desecrated and destroyed a number of important churches—such as the Church of St. Mark in Egypt and the Church of the Holy Sepulchre in Jerusalem—and decreed several even more oppressive than usual decrees against Christians and Jews. It is in this backdrop that Pope Urban called for the Crusades.

      The Crusades ironically help better explain Islam. For what the Crusades demonstrated once and for all is that, irrespective of religious teachings—indeed, in the case of these so-called “Christian” Crusades, despite them—man is in fact predisposed to violence and intolerance. But this begs the question: If this is how Christians behaved—who are commanded to love, bless, and do good to their enemies who hate, curse, and persecute them—how much more can be expected of Muslims who, while sharing the same violent tendencies, are further validated by the Deity’s command to attack, kill, and plunder non-believers?

      http://www.meforum.org/2105/judeo-christian-violence-vs-islamic-violence

      • Kate8

        JeffH – Even Christians are allowed to act in self defense, and protect their families, homes and culture.

        • JeffH

          Yep!

  • Buck

    Islam is evil ! Nuff said .

  • chuckb

    jeffh,
    good explanation. sometimes i get off on a tangent about things i read years ago, thinking what i say is correct and to find later it was not exactly that way.
    one thing is for sure, islam is a cult this world could do without, based on ignorance and superstition. from the day of it’s inception, they have had blood on their hands.
    this country will rue the day having allowed them to migrate here.

    • JeffH

      chuckb, we all do from time to time…my point was that so often the “Muslim apologists” cite the great Crusade as their defensive mechanism…when in fact, the Muslims were invading, killing and conquering every where. They attacked non-believers, no matter who they were. Their history is essentially based on hatred and killing of non-believers.

  • bob wire

    hmm/ the debates were fun tonight!

  • Kate8

    Here’s something really fun.

    Here’s a lady who’s been mayor of a large Canadian city for 31 years. The city is prosperous, debt-free and has $700million in reserve.

    What a lady. If only we had politicians like this.

  • chuckb

    ron paul didn’t do well in the debate tonite. i was disappointed in all the candidates, romney is so phony, of course he’s the rino star, karl rove is pushing him. where’s palin, the bolsheviks are hoping she doesn’t show up.

  • Ted Crawford

    It seems to me that we have lost our focus here. The bulk of the dicussion is on the short term situation, ignoring the stated long term intentions of these radicals! They clearly expressed their desire to create a global Muslim Theocracy.
    If we lack the will to oppose them, where ever and whenever they strike we, by apathy, allow them to suceed!

    • Jay

      I disagree Ted. It is not the establishment of a muslim theocracy, rather, a war is being fomented by taking advantage of the differences caused by the “agentur” of the “Illuminati” between the political Zionists and the leaders of Islamic World. The war will be conducted in such a way that Islam (the Moslem Arabic World) and political Zionism (the State of Israel) will mutually destroy each other!

  • http://gmail.com David J. Sanchez

    After the Cold War ended we needed another war, enter, the War on Terror. If you really need to fully grasp this realization of how the CIA and the powers in the Pentagon operate one book can help you better understand this reality. It started years ago at the end of the President Dwight D. Eisenhower Administration, when he proclaimed in his Farewell Address to the Nation, that we need to keep in check the powers of the military-industrial complex, for they will surely keep us involved in one mire or another. Then Kennedy was elected and dealt with this insurmountable problem head on. Do yourself a favor and read James W. Douglass’s book, “JFK And The Unspeakable, Why he died and why it Matters”. “He chose peace and they marked him for death”.

Bottom
close[X]

Sign Up For Personal Liberty Digest™!

PL Badge

Welcome to PersonalLiberty.com,
America's #1 Source for Libertarian News!

To join our group of freedom-loving individuals and to get alerts as well as late-breaking conservative news from Personal Liberty Digest™...

Privacy PolicyYou can opt out at any time. We protect your information like a mother hen. We will not sell or rent your email address to anyone for any reason.