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Supreme Court upholds law on gays in military

June 11, 2009 by  

Supreme Court upholds law on gays in military The nation’s highest court has rejected the challenge to the "don’t ask, don’t tell" policy introduced during the Clinton Administration.

The suit was brought by James Pietrangelo II, the former Army infantryman and veteran of two Iraq wars, who was discharged in 2004 after revealing he was gay, according to Time magazine.

The administration has expressed support for the court’s ruling, and indicated a review of the law is "not a high priority." However, gay-rights groups have been quick to stress Obama promised to eventually repeal the law during his presidential campaign.

"Every moment that the administration and Congress delay repealing ‘don’t ask, don’t tell,’ our nation is robbed of brave men and women who would risk their lives to keep our country safe," says Joe Solmonese, president of Human Rights Campaign, quoted by the Associated Press.

The campaign has joined other groups which are calling on the president to sign an executive order suspending "don’t ask, don’t tell".

Recently, Lieutenant Dan Choi, an Arabic-speaking West Point graduate and a veteran of the Iraq war, was discharged from the army after he publically declared his sexual orientation.
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  • Conservative

    Now watch Ted Pike’s video, where he explains why the Hate Bill Passed, and who is making criminals of Christians and which private organization has been collecting the personal data of American citizens. Keep your Excedrin handy while you are watching this video.

    Video – Ted Pike: Hate Laws and The ADL
    http://www.truthtellers.org/alerts/newvideoexplainshatebill.htm

    • Sudden call

      He is right ,they are criminals. Anyone who teaches superstition and myth is a criminal con-artist.Money is the Christian game.

    • rodin

      Why do you want the ability to promote hatred against anybody? Society would then be reduced to which “us” is bigger and stronger than which “them”. Better we actually manage to enforce some societal norms of civility towards others.

      • http://gator911truth.org H Saive

        The SUV Generation

      • Denise

        When I joined the US Army I was asked a question,”Are you a homosexual or have you ever been involved in homosexual activity?I said,”No.”It was against the US Army’s policy to be gay.Why?Because,we don’t want sexual harassment from gay men to heteral sexual men.Or gay women harassing straight women either.

  • http://commonsenseforva.blogspot.com Bigvinu

    Another Instance where liberty meets tyranny.

  • Robin from Indiana

    Why do gays want this policy to be suspended? Don’t ask, don’t tell has worked so far, hasn’t it? If this policy is suspended, what will the policy be?

    • Terry

      They want this policy done away with because it’s all part of their grand agenda to force their way of life onto the rest of America, it’s really that simple. I served and have a child serving now and I know that I didn’t want to know the sexual preference of others who I was serving with and those serving now for the most part don’t want to know the same now. If nobama does away with this policy what will be next, gay bars on base, gay banners on the work site? Each and every one of the people who have so called come out like Lieutenant Dan Choi lied to get into the service and they knew that they were telling a lie when they signed up. The military does have something to do with not only bravery but honor and honesty as well.
      These people who came out made a choice and now need to live with it not have the courts or military change the rules for their benefit.

      • rodin

        You don’t have to be straight to want to defend this country. Lesbians and gays are just as equal of citizens as anybody else and should have exactly the same rights. Didn’t we have this same debate before (and after) we started allowing women into the military? And blacks?

        • Terry

          No one said that you had to be straight to defend this country except for you I think. This is not about equal rights but rather about getting special rights. Why don’t the gays think about the other people serving and about their safety. I know if I was wounded I wouldn’t want a gay person to help me nor would I want to go to the aid of a gay person who was wounded and had blood flowing out of their body. To compare the blacks and women to gays is an absurd thing to do. After all blacks and women can’t lie about who they are and can’t change who they are, their sex or the color of their skin, gays can, it is a matter of choice after all.
          Lastly when are you willing to tell a special interest group no? What about old guys or gals wanting to marry minors or people wanting to get married to 3,4 or 5 different people at the same time? Open Pandora’s Box and everyone will want their special rights to be granted.

        • rodin

          You are one seriously hateful and deluded bigot. You wouldn’t help your fellow man and you wouldn’t take help from them either? Serious problems…. There’s no special rights being granted or asked for. Lesbians and gays want the same rights as everyone else… nothing more and nothing less.

        • John

          Terry- you are an idiot. What do you mean by “safety”? It’s sad that people like you continue with the hate in this country. This is not about special rights it’s about equal rights. I wish all the gay people in the military would come out so we could see how much of a loss we would have if this happened. It would be quite eye opening.

    • rodin

      It’ s not working as well as it could. Thousands of brave soldiers are being excluded and removed from service because of this. Also, given that the average age of recruits is just about the same time that most gays are discovering they can’t suppress or deny who they are, many actually “come out” during their service. It’s a shame they should then be subject to the additional stigma of being ousted from their service to country.

      • Terry

        Oh Bull, thousands? Really? I think not, a very few. You know they know that gays aren’t allowed to openly serve in the military so what does that say for these people? It tells me that they have no honor, no respect for rules and that they could care less about any other person who is serving and that they are willing to lie to get their way. If I can’t trust the person next to me then what good are they? None.

        • rodin

          First of all, the rules are wrong so they must be fought against. Secondly as far as honor goes, sometimes you have to lie for the right reasons. The fact they want to serve this country is honor enough for me. What? do you think they want to join because its a party? They care enough for the rest of us in society to fight on our behalf. I would seriously trust any of them before I trust someone like you that has subjective values about who you would help. You are creating the argument to weasel your way out of helping another human being based on whether you like them or not. SHAME.

      • http://PersonalLibertyDigest Linda

        all i know is that gay people where i work have all the special priviledges its not fair

    • Denise

      I’m telling you if they go to war Vietnam vets will just shoot them and keep going.

  • Carol

    You know who really cares if a person is gay or not as long as they are willing to fight and die for this country like all the other men and women I just can’t see where the problem lies and that is a fact.

    MAY GOD BLESS ALL OF THE MEN AND WOMEN WHO FIGHT AND DIE FOR THIS COUNTRY AND ALL OTHER COUNTRIES NOW AND FOR ALL TIME AS I AM SURE HE WILL!!!

    • Joe

      God Cares

      • Carol

        God created us equally in his eyes and he does not say to anyone to kill or harm people be them large or small black or white.

        If he didn’t want them here on Planet Earth they would not be here and who are we to judge anyone they way they are or are not.

        Judge not for you might be judged and you might not like what he has to say!!!

  • Joe

    God made the rules about gays. To be gay is an abomination before God. And no, I don’t hate gays, i just hate their sins. It is strictly forbidden to be gay and serve in the armed forces, so why would anyone want to? I certainly wouldn’t want to be a part of a group that didn’t want me.

  • Dale

    “Hate, hate, hate, hate, hate,hate, hate,hate,”.
    I’ll tell you what I “hate”. The stupidity of people who
    use the same oooooooooold tired arguments over
    and over and over again until they believe their own
    stupidity. Can you people not get it through your thick,
    closed minded, unaccepting heads that if you simply
    DISAGREE with something, DOES NOT MEAN that
    you “HATE” or “FEAR” the people who practice what
    you DISAGREE with?
    I know that you are trying to paint people who YOU
    disagree with, with that broad brush of “intolerance”
    because you somehow think that it makes you
    morally superior. But all it really does is make you
    look/sound like tamper throwing little children who
    hold your breath until you get YOUR way. GROW UP
    and let people believe what they believe. If you don’t
    like it…TOUGH! Get over yourselves!

    • 13th Gen. American

      EXACTLY! Roden is all over the place in here and you could cut and paste any of his rants. He says the same bull calling names having a hissy fit. I think he has emotional issues. Maybe his parents hated him so he feels everyone else who doesnt agree is a hater. Funny is none of us spew hate like he does towards us. He is a joke to be used as fodder and insentive to get others to vote like thay did in California. The masses spoke and they still cried. Its a tactic to wear us down but it aint gona work

      • Rodin

        Mr 13… so nice to see you again.

        Let’s be clear- I don’t hate you. I will however fight your intolerance and discrimination against fellow human beings to my dying breath. You want to call it a simple difference of opinion… that’s ok as long as you don’t start arguing to keep maintain bigotry in our laws. And the last time I checked the dictionary, the words intolerance and bigotry and discrimination applied to your arguments to maintain gays as 2nd class citizens. I can call it something else if you like, but unfortunately the English language uses these words for your expressions.

        But I don’t hate you… I pray so you will see the light and love and respect your fellow man (and woman)

        • 13th Gen. American

          See you do show hate and bigotry towards all of us with your words. Im not the only one that sees it. Check out the replys to your posts from others. You think that a disagreement is hate toward you and yours. I have many gay friends who I love very much. I have had the best time partying in my day with them and I also have family/ friends. You dont get the fact you can hate the sin and not the sinner. For anything or any one in life. I disagree with my daughter on things. As a child when she didnt get what she wanted she lashed out and said I hate her. Now she sees it as what it is. A disagreement. It is just as bad for a straight to sleep around/ fornication. Or to lie and steal and on and on. All sins but just because people try to make laws for it doesnt make it right before God. Like abortion. It is so wrong in so many ways but the libs want it law to suck the brains out of half born babies. There is the rape matter and insest and if the mother will die. There are times for excemptions. But they want you to be able to get rid of it for any reason. Its a law to do it. It doesnt make it right. You however want your own way and any one who doesnt agree with you is a bigot and hater. Well I answer to God not you. He is the one that said it is wrong. Then he is the bigot and hater. I have many other sins of my own. I know there is no way Im going to heaven on my own. I also know I cannot justify my sins buy pointing at others. Only through Jesus as my savior am I going there. My choice. He died for you too. Your choice to accept him or not. In the mean time dont expect people to agree with you on all things gay. I dont discriminate. I dont treat anyone like 2nd class. You can work and achieve and sleep with anyone you like. You however may have good intentions on your own but I have enougf experience with my multitude of gay friends to know that it is mostly about sex with the men. Some of them have long term relationships but on a whole They personaly have told me its about sex. You think your being discriminated against. Go have a chat with God. I can love you as a person but there is no way Im going to OK the things he deamed a sin in my life or yours. You have the chouce to do whatever you like in life. You have to answer to God like the rest of us weither you believe it or not. God is the one who set up mariage. Between a man and a woman. His idea not mine. I do think you need to step back and look at your post. You can give your point of view but in the vast majority of them you call all sorts of names. You dont know any of us. Im sure there are gay haters. But you show hate for us with your words. You show intolerance for our opinion through your words, You show all that you call us through your words. Its evedent to everyone who the hater is because of their comments back to you. A simple statement of facts with no hate speech brings a rage of hate toward that person. People do not take you seriously or look at your posts because of the rhetoric you spew back. As for me never in my life I have never been called a hater in any way. I have friends of all walks of life. It is you personaly who was the first to call me that and more. You call people names based on one subject they disagree with. I pray you see the light and the love of Christ who loves you, dies for your sins, and takes you as you are. I am a Christian not Christ. Go look to him for your answers. not man.

      • rodin

        You still don’t get it. I don’t care what you think of gays. Doesn’t bother me in the least that you think it goes against your god’s wishes. You want to think of it as a sin in front of god…. that’s ok. I have NO PROBLEM with that. You’re a free person with a free mind and I’m happy to accept that.

        However, when you decide that it’s ok to send gays to jail for their lifestyle, to prevent them from getting jobs because of who they are, to tax them at a higher rate than straight couples, to ensure they can’t see their partner in hospital because they’re not what you classify as family…. then I have a problem. At that point it is you that are not following your own religion’s tenets. Love your fellow human being and let god sort out the sins. Crimes though are different and when one class is discriminated against or not granted complete equality, that is a crime against the tenets of our society, not god.

        As for seeking guidance from god, I’m quite certain she is happy with me.

        • 13th Gen. American

          Now thats just plain assine bullshit. I nor any one on any of these post said to send them to jail or pay them less or any other bullshit words you are putting in our mouth. Its just plain bullshit. Do what ever you please. Just dont try to cram your way of life on everyone else. Marriage was formed from God to procreate.When you can do that without the help of the other sex then well see. The institute of marriage was Gods Idea. If you dont like it to bad. As for your crying ass the same stuff that you just said about gays happens to straight/.black/white/ everyone. Difference we dont go around bofrigginhooing and calling others names. Its called life boy. Ya dont always get what you want. Especially if society on a whole deames it wrong.Wrong is wrong. Quit trying to justify your sins by making it legal and making us accept it into society as norm. Also If I cried over all the injustice done to me and mine over the years Id end up just as hateful sad pathetic as you seem to be. Altho I dont know you personally but going by your rhetoric spewed at those who wont agree with you, you are more hateful than anyone you have accused it of. Get over your sad ass. People are sick of hearing you cry and say the most ridiculous bull shit Im sure these sites have ever seen. But please keep it going. In case you didnt read elsewhere I have been passing your comments along to a variety of people. None of which can believe how twisted you are. So thank you. You are personllay responsible for getting about 15 more people out to the tea parties because the dems I know are appaled you represent them in any way. Also I used your words to get people to protest against the marriage thing when it comes to my state. You have done more to get people modivated and aware of whats going on outside of our community than I could on my own. . Thank you for all you have contributed to the consertive issues. May your god be with you. Youll need it.

    • 13th Gen. American

      Dale. May I cut and paste your words to every place I see Roden do and say exactly what you said. I dont want people think Im the only one who thinks this of him. There are so many others he calls names for one reason or another and justifys it all. Just look at this last one. Bullx100. I will put your name on the bottom so people know id didnt come from me. He has to be the biggest hypocrite Ive ever seen. Its growing old and I love your post. It says it all. 13th

      • rodin

        I call bullshit. You think by sheer volume of words you can create truth out of lies then go ahead. Since you don’t appear to recognize the obvious, I will attempt to provide backup that you can look into.

        Here’s the truth
        (1) It was only a few short years ago the police in Texas acting on a warrant for the wrong address, burst in on a couple having sex. They were charged under that state’s sodomy laws. When the law was challenged, several conservative groups were up in arms claiming religious right to set up laws against homosexuals.

        (2) In most states it is perfectly legal to disallow same-sex spouses from visiting sick and dying partners, because they don’t fit the legal requirement for spouse or family

        (3) As for taxation, two lesbians raising a family cannot get the same tax benefits that a male-female led family can. They cannot file jointly and end up paying much more in taxes.

        (4) A gay employee paying for mandatory health insurance may not be able to have his spouse recognized as a beneficiary.

        I don’t care about religious marriage, what I care about are civil rights. Keep your marriages in your churches between man and woman – I dont care. But at the same time recognize that there are over 200 individual rights that civilly married couples have that homosexual couples should also have.

        You still want to call me a hating individual because I recognize that there are societal inequities that I’d like to rectify? You can stop your name calling and just deal with the facts.

        You say you don’t discriminate – I call bullshit. You’re the first in line to say that a homosexual can’t get equal treatment before the law because you consider their lifestyle against your god.

        You say that some of your friends are homosexuals. That’s like saying you had black friends in the 50′s but still supported segregation.

        Call me all the names you want. You’re still arguing based on selective morality. Either you want all of our laws based on your bible or you want all of our laws based upon equality and respect for all. You can’t have it both ways. Our country was set up with freedom from religion and based up the concept that peoples of different ideas could live together without hurting one another. Why do you want to maintain an obvious discrimination when it does you no harm to recognize another’s civil rights. To enshrine completely equal civil marriage would not affect your lifestyle or ability to live your life at all… and yet you fight against it.

        In short, I can address EVERY issue you raise, yet all you can do is call me names.

        • 13th Gen. American

          Your an ass. I had nor did any people I know have anything to do with those or any other acts. No one condones it. Yet I would waste space and time on all the things that I myself and friends and family had done to us that wasnt right or fair yet we will not blame the whole of humanity for it and insult black, or jews and put them in the same category. The fact that you are saying any of us did any of that is the bullshit. Its like me blaming all gays are crybaby asses just because you are. Get over yourself. You may or may not get what you want but I will not say it is right in any way. Just because you do not believe in God doesnt mean He doesnt exist. I have to face him with my own stuff. Im not going to have to answer to him because I didnt fight for HIS word, Im not going to OK the killing of babies or gay marriage or anything else that HE deams a sin,just to appease the people like you. AND I will continue to use you and your hateful words and craziness to get as many people to vote no friggen way when that vote comes to my state. I have already printed out some of your best “RODEN RANTS” to prove my point. I shall be fair and send your newest one around too and let them know you think all straights are responsible for it. I feel so so sad for you. You must have had a rough childhood to hate so many people for a few others sins.

        • 13th Gen. American

          PS Have you ever heard the saying put your money where your mouth is? Well because of you I just donated 1,000 to an organization to combat the marriage law. I do have other places for my tithes but as soon as I give to them what I promised I will be sending more. All of the above mentioned had happened to straights also but like I said life sucks sometimes. If I had more now to give I would. You see you can do whatever you please in your own home. I could care less. It is a fact that we all have to suffer for your sins. America will suffer because of the likes of you and libsagendas. Yes and for straight peoples sins too. Also to get people out to vote I am in the process of getting your rants together to hand out to people to let them know just how far sick america is getting. I do not hate you. I hate the sin. Thank you for motivating me to do something about it even if it is small.

  • 13th Gen. American

    Recently Senator Rick Santorum was attacked by the liberal media and pro-homosexual groups for comments he made about a case being argued currently before the US Supreme Court.

    The plaintiff in this case, who was arrested by Houston sheriff’s deputies and fined for engaging in homosexual behavior outlawed in Texas, is attempting to have Texas’ anti-sodomy law ruled unconstitutional. When asked by an Associated Press reporter to state his opinion about homosexual behavior, Mr. Santorum referred to the Supreme Court case and commented that activities like sodomy, ‘undermine the basic tenets of our society and the family.’

    In return for stating his honest opinion Mr. Santorum has been subjected to an endless, venomous diatribe. Liberals and pro-homosexual groups have decided that Mr. Santorum is bigoted and intolerant and no longer worthy material for Senate leadership. The treatment Mr. Santorum has endured for stating his opinion–which by the way, is the opinion of the vast majority of Americans– serves as a vivid reminder of the tactics of his attackers.

    Because the homosexual rights groups have been unable to persuade the majority of Americans that homosexuality is good for us, they have resorted to attacking anyone who speaks the majority opinion. In so doing the gay thought police have revealed themselves for what they really are–bullies who threaten and intimidate those who dare to speak out against them.

    We must ask who the real bigots are here. In America, speaking one’s mind is a Constitutionally-protected right. The real bigots are those who label anyone who disagrees with them as bigoted and intolerant and attack them for sharing their beliefs. Mr. Santorum has not called for anyone’s resignation or dismissal. His detractors have. Once again, the homosexual-rights groups have revealed that they are the real bigots.

    Our society has the responsibility and the right to discourage the practice of homosexuality. The Judeo-Christian teaching on this is clear. Homosexuality is a deviance from God’s norm. It is neither normal nor healthy behavior. Lest anyone think that this theological position is merely sectarian, it is important to note that even the renowned theologian Wolfhart Pannenberg concluded that when the church has “ceased to treat homosexual activity as a departure from the biblical norm” it “would no longer stand on biblical ground but against the unequivocal witness of Scripture” and “would thereby have ceased to be one, holy, catholic, and apostolic.”

    Furthermore, any attempt to equate homosexuality with race or ethnicity should offend all of us. There is no evidence that homosexuality is an inborn trait, in spite of numerous efforts to prove the contrary. Homosexuality has many contributing causes, but it is obviously not to be equated with race or ethnicity. A person’s ethnicity is what one is, whereas homosexual behavior is what one does.

    As Christians, we will continue to support politicians who speak out against homosexuality and to oppose those who support special rights for homosexuals and who seek to support societal approval of homosexual behavior. I applaud Mr. Santorum for courageously sharing his beliefs. We hope other politicians will be emboldened by his stand to hold firm to their convictions about the immorality of homosexual behavior and resist the bullying and intimidation tactics of radical homosexual-rights groups.
    From “Gods Norm” byRichard Land

  • 13th Gen. American

    Gay Marriage: Why Would It Affect Me?
    Ten Arguments Against Same Sex Marriage
    (This is a synopsis of the new book by Dr. James Dobson, Marriage Under Fire.)

    Argument #1.
    The implications for children in a world of decaying families are profound. A recent article in the Weekly Standard described how the advent of legally sanctioned gay unions in Scandinavian countries has already destroyed the institution of marriage, where half of today’s children are born out of wedlock.

    It is predicted now, based on demographic trends in this country, that more than half of the babies born in the 1990s will spend at least part of their childhood in single-parent homes.

    Social scientists have been surprisingly consistent in warning against this fractured family. If it continues, almost every child will have several “moms” and “dads,” perhaps six or eight “grandparents,” and dozens of half-siblings. It will be a world where little boys and girls are shuffled from pillar to post in an ever-changing pattern of living arrangements-where huge numbers of them will be raised in foster-care homes or living on the street (as millions do in other countries all over the world today). Imagine an environment where nothing is stable and where people think primarily about themselves and their own self-preservation.

    The apostle Paul described a similar society in Romans 1, which addressed the epidemic of homosexuality that was rampant in the ancient world and especially in Rome at that time. He wrote, “They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless” (v. 29-31, NIV).

    It appears likely now that the demise of families will accelerate this type of decline dramatically, resulting in a chaotic culture that will be devastating to children.

    Argument #2
    The introduction of legalized gay marriages will lead inexorably to polygamy and other alternatives to one-man, one-woman unions.

    In Utah, polygamist Tom Green, who claims five wives, is citing Lawrence v. Texas as the legal authority for his appeal. This past January, a Salt Lake City civil rights attorney filed a federal lawsuit on behalf of another couple wanting to engage in legal polygamy. Their justification? Lawrence v. Texas.

    The ACLU of Utah has actually suggested that the state will “have to step up to prove that a polygamous relationship is detrimental to society”-as opposed to the polygamists having to prove that plural marriage is not harmful to the culture. Do you see how the game is played? Despite 5,000 years of history, the burden now rests on you and me to prove that polygamy is unhealthy. The ACLU went on to say that the nuclear family “may not be necessarily the best model.” Indeed, Justice Antonin Scalia warned of this likelihood in his statement for the minority in the Lawrence case.10 It took less than six months for his prediction to become reality.

    Why will gay marriage set the table for polygamy? Because there is no place to stop once that Rubicon has been crossed. Historically, the definition of marriage has rested on a bedrock of tradition, legal precedent, theology and the overwhelming support of the people.

    After the introduction of marriage between homosexuals, however, it will be supported by nothing more substantial than the opinion of a single judge or by a black-robed panel of justices. After they have done their wretched work, the family will consist of little more than someone’s interpretation of “rights.”

    Given that unstable legal climate, it is certain that some self-possessed judge, somewhere, will soon rule that three men and one woman can marry. Or five and two, or four and four. Who will be able to deny them that right? The guarantee is implied, we will be told, by the Constitution. Those who disagree will continue to be seen as hate-mongers and bigots. (Indeed, those charges are already being leveled against those of us who espouse biblical values!) How about group marriage, or marriage between relatives, or marriage between adults and children? How about marriage between a man and his donkey? Anything allegedly linked to “civil rights” will be doable. The legal underpinnings for marriage will have been destroyed.

    Argument #3
    An even greater objective of the homosexual movement is to end the state’s compelling interest in marital relationships altogether. After marriages have been redefined, divorces will be obtained instantly, will not involve a court, and will take on the status of a driver’s license or a hunting permit. With the family out of the way, all rights and privileges of marriage will accrue to gay and lesbian partners without the legal entanglements and commitments heretofore associated with it.

    Argument #4
    With the legalization of homosexual marriage, every public school in the nation will be required to teach that this perversion is the moral equivalent of traditional marriage between a man and a woman. Textbooks, even in conservative states, will have to depict man/man and woman/woman relationships, and stories written for children as young as elementary school, or even kindergarten, will have to give equal space to homosexuals.

    Argument #5
    From that point forward, courts will not be able to favor a traditional family involving one man and one woman over a homosexual couple in matters of adoption. Children will be placed in homes with parents representing only one sex on an equal basis with those having a mom and a dad. The prospect of fatherless and motherless children will not be considered in the evaluation of eligibility. It will be the law.

    Argument #6
    Foster-care parents will be required to undergo “sensitivity training” to rid themselves of bias in favor of traditional marriage, and will have to affirm homosexuality in children and teens.

    Argument #7
    How about the impact on Social Security if there are millions of new dependents that will be entitled to survivor benefits? It will amount to billions of dollars on an already overburdened system. And how about the cost to American businesses? Unproductive costs mean fewer jobs for those who need them. Are state and municipal governments to be required to raise taxes substantially to provide health insurance and other benefits to millions of new “spouses and other dependents”?

    Argument #8
    Marriage among homosexuals will spread throughout the world, just as pornography did after the Nixon Commission declared obscene material “beneficial” to mankind.11 Almost instantly, the English-speaking countries liberalized their laws against smut. America continues to be the fountainhead of filth and immorality, and its influence is global.

    The point is that numerous leaders in other nations are watching to see how we will handle the issue of homosexuality and marriage. Only two countries in the world have authorized gay marriage to date-the Netherlands and Belgium. Canada is leaning in that direction, as are numerous European countries. Dr. Darrell Reid, president of Focus on the Family Canada, told me two weeks ago that his country is carefully monitoring the United States to see where it is going. If we take this step off a cliff, the family on every continent will splinter at an accelerated rate. Conversely, our U.S. Supreme Court has made it clear that it looks to European and Canadian law in the interpretation of our Constitution.13 What an outrage! That should have been grounds for impeachment, but the Congress, as usual, remained passive and silent.

    Argument #9
    Perhaps most important, the spread of the Gospel of Jesus Christ will be severely curtailed. The family has been God’s primary vehicle for evangelism since the beginning.

    Its most important assignment has been the propagation of the human race and the handing down of the faith to our children. Malachi 2:15 reads, referring to husbands and wives, “Has not the Lord made them one? In flesh and spirit they are His. And why one? Because He was seeking godly offspring. So guard yourself in your spirit, and do not break faith with the wife of your youth” (NIV).

    That responsibility to teach the next generation will never recover from the loss of committed, God-fearing families. The younger generation and those yet to come will be deprived of the Good News, as has already occurred in France, Germany and other European countries. Instead of providing for a father and mother, the advent of homosexual marriage will create millions of motherless children and fatherless kids. This is morally wrong, and is condemned in Scripture. Are we now going to join the Netherlands and Belgium to become the third country in the history of the world to “normalize” and legalize behavior that has been prohibited by God himself? Heaven help us if we do!

    Argument #10
    The culture war will be over, and I fear, the world may soon become “as it was in the days of Noah” (Matthew 24:37, NIV). This is the climactic moment in the battle to preserve the family, and future generations hang in the balance.

    This apocalyptic and pessimistic view of the institution of the family and its future will sound alarmist to many, but I think it will prove accurate unless-unless-God’s people awaken and begin an even greater vigil of prayer for our nation. That’s why Shirley and I are urgently seeking the Lord’s favor and asking Him to hear the petitions of His people and heal our land.

    As of this time, however, large segments of the church appear to be unaware of the danger; its leaders are surprisingly silent about our peril (although we are tremendously thankful for the efforts of those who have spoken out on this issue). The lawless abandon occurring recently in California, New Mexico, New York, Oregon, Washington and elsewhere should have shocked us out of our lethargy. So far, I’m alarmed to say, the concern and outrage of the American people have not translated into action.

    This reticence on behalf of Christians is deeply troubling. Marriage is a sacrament designed by God that serves as a metaphor for the relationship between Christ and His Church. Tampering with His plan for the family is immoral and wrong. To violate the Lord’s expressed will for humankind, especially in regard to behavior that He has prohibited, is to court disaster.

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    • rodin

      Your arguments are so easy to tear apart.

      1 – Your sources suck, one silly little newspaper which I assume is not biased at all…(LMFAO)… Irrespective of which, you’re going to have single parent families regardless of whether you sanction same sex marriage or not. The couples will still be couples and the separated couples will still be separated. Has nothing to do with civil recognition. Also your predictions of dire consequences for single parent families, although not even related to homosexuality, are not true. Empirically, there is no evidence that children raised in today’s environment are raised with any less “moral” fibre than 60 or 70 years ago before we started allowing no-fault divorce. Now you’re going to scoff at this I know, but imagine being brought up where your father and mother were constantly trying to kill each other because they hated each other so much, imagine an alcoholic abusive father that was allowed to stay with the family and abuse the mother and children, imagine the effect of having a father that was never home because he was constantly with his mistress but couldn’t bring it out in the open and marry her because society didn’t allow that. Don’t blame the problems of the inner city gangs and crime on single parent upbringing, blame it instead on endemic poverty and economics… I know many teachers in middle class schools that have several of their pupils with “extended” families and the children are just as bright, imaginative and engaged as any others. They adapt because they have the support of loving parents. What you should be railing against are social and economic disparities for children.

      Argument #2 – we already have polygamy. It’s not recognized but it exists with no protections for the women and children involved. There’s no evidence that recognition would increase it’s prevalence. Just like there is no evidence that recognizing gay unions will increase the number of gay people. They’re already gay and they’re already in couple and family situations if they want to be. Recognizing the civil rights of each partner in these unions is not going to increase the number of gay people or their desire to be a couple. So while I’m neither a proponent nor against civil protections for those in polygamous relationships, the issue is completely separate from recognition of civil rights for gay partnerships and would have to be decided on its own merits. Polygamous relationships can also be sustained without civil recognition, but society would have to look at the protections for children within those relationships and how they can best be protected within the scope of parental responsibilities… it may be that civil recognition would provide the best protections for children and for spouses both during the relationship and in case there is a breakdown. So since there are going to be some margins of society that maintain these relationships,,, how do you propose we protect the ones with lesser power in these relationships…. assuming you actually believe that society should provide some protections for partners in relationships. I’m open on this issue…., but it’s not related to civil recognition of gay couplings nor does it affect your quality of life since these relationships will be carried on regardless of whether we recognize them or not.

      Argument #3 – I’m really not sure where you get this supposition from nor where it’s going to. On the surface it’s completely illogical. The state’s interest in recognizing marriages has always been one of registration, taxation, monitoring benefits etc, while the “love” and “commitment” part of marriage exists at the personal level.. If two people want to commit, they will regardless of what the laws are. The law does not strengthen the commitment, merely recognize it for the purpose of civil benefits and registration. I’ve seen no evidence that homosexuals want to dilute the meaning of the commitment, nor that they love their partners any less.

      Argument #4 – You’re not going to like this, but regardless of civil recognition of gay marriage, I do not accept that it is the state’s responsibility to teach that anyone is more moral than someone else. The states cannot teach religion and I would be livid if my children were taught that any law abiding and society respecting citizen was immoral. If your church wants to do that…. that’s another matter, but if your children ever ATTACKED somebody because they thought their parents or them immoral, then that is very wrong. And children will do that. So A) school’s can’t teach it constitutionally and B) Churches shouldnt teach it either but if they do, and somebody gets hurt then be prepared for the consequences…. There may be blood on somebody’s hands when some bigots decide to kill a young homosexual and tie him to a fence post. Morality is for god to punish not us.

      Argument #5 – you’re right. What’s the problem? Court’s should always look to the welfare of the child and if a loving lesbian couple are preferred over an alcoholic and abusive straight couple then so be it. Now don’t get your shorts in a knot… I’m not saying that straights are all alcoholic abusers but each case should be decided on the merits of what the couple will provide not who they are and I have seen many good caring family relationships with both lesbians and homosexual males where the children are nurtured and loved as equally as they would be within a good straight family relationship. I have no biases here.

      Argument #6 – Again I agree with you. Again I’m trying to figure out what the problem is. Every teen homosexual that I know went through hell trying to figure out who they were in their teens. Many committed suicide because they couldn’t accept they were different. Please work sometime on a teen hotline so you will understand some of the issues they face. I understand you think it is a moral issue, however, there is a biological imperative for gay kids, and to deny that imperative is extremely painful. Yes some Christian de-programmers say that they have had limited success in having some gays turn away from being gay, but within the gay community, that is considered a joke and those that profess to change have extremely high recidivism rates. They are who they are and it is biological. EVERY gay man and lesbian woman that I’ve ever met would gladly take a magic pill that would make them straight and not have to go through the pain of adolescence. Once they accept who they are, most become happy with themselves. If counsellors could teach that at adolescence, do you have any idea how much pain you would eradicate.

      Anyways, I’m tired. I’m sorry you define the worth of an individual based on your interpretation of morality. I’m happy to be more inclusive.

      • 13th Gen. American

        Your arguments are futile in the fact that marriage is based on Gods law. Not mans. Gods law never changes unlike mans that changes with the whim of the population. I have personal arguments to offer against yours but I grow weary of your crying. The issue of marriage or gays in military are based on the laws and morals of God since the begining of time. Your values or lack of are based on a deluded lustful sexual perversion based on your own self indulgent lifestyle. I know many many gays also who say they choose to be that way. I met a few in a bar that said they only did that on weekends. I could go on but the fact remains your argument had been useful to me in so many ways. I hope to see more of you in the future. I will continue to combat YOUR hateful tyrants against anyone that disagrees with you. I will be using you and the likes of you to fight against the moral decay. I used the other reports to show you others feel the same. California, which is suppose to be the most liberal state voted against it. Society as a whole can only tolerate deviant behavior so long. You may get your way one day. God said so. “As in the days of Noah” But it is he that will let it happen to bring about his ultimate plan. Also one last thing. How dare you compare your sad excuse for equal rights to the blacks or the jews. It is an insult to all the suffering they went through. There is no comparison to them. To think so is sadly self richeous on your part. Please continue to post your rants though. I do so enjoy them. You have done more for the battle against gay marriage than anything I could do on my own. These sites are good for debate but it is all talk if you dont do something.I hope others who view you and your hateful anti-god ,do what ever feels good, morality will be as motivated by you as I. I have to leave town for a while but so you know when I come back I will be acting and not just talking. There are letters and petitions and legal places for me to place my money to combat the decline of civilization and America brought upon first by the removal of God from schools. Second by the pacifying of the unricheous, anti-god liberals. I do feel so sad for you that in your deluted sinful state of mind that you think you can get others to agree with you by bombarding the sites with hateful rhetoric. Also compared to your other rants I do believe you had help in your post. I cant decide which I enjoy best. The spewing of your sickness or the more elaborate ones that expound upon and show the depth of your depravity.

        • John S

          13Th I can see that all the folks have quit addressing you in this thread, and personally I don’t know why I am wasting the screen ink and time to even bother addressing your posts. I see you have all the idiot right wingers writings that are more “hole-some” than a kitchen colander. ”

          I know that what ever since I make you will not address it with logic but will throw the God blanket over it. If you were making your God argument in court it would not have standing for 2 seconds. Your case would be thrown out like a dirty piece of toilet paper.

          Rodin as I, have addressed you point by point with a large measure thoughtful logic, but you return with calling foul and Rodin is crying. She (I think Rodin is a she) makes perfectly coherent points. She doesen’t have to cry to anyone especially you, but you like the Alkida, and the Taliban don’t have a sensible rebuttal, you run to your Koran (Bible) and say I don’t care what makes since, and start vomiting your interpretation of what God is thinking.

          Who in the f#ck died and left you chief interpreter of God? You senseless bombastic egotist. If that’s the way you think then think it, but keep your religion the hell out of politics, and the rest of us will keep our political speeches out of your bigot laced church services…deal?

          If your church teachings work for you personally great then keep them to your self. We don’t live in a theocracy. Our laws are based on the constitution that protects the minority from the majority.

          There is no mention in the constitution of marriage, or gays in the military ANYWHERE….. GOT THAT for the millionth time?

          THERE IS NO MENTION OF GAYS IN THE MILITARY IN THE BIBLE ANYWHERE. Marriage in this country is a contract between TWO ADULT HUMAN BEINGS. Not 3,or 4 or 5 persons. IF YOU THINK MARRIAGE IS A GOD THING try getting married in ANY CHURCH with out a license from the state and see how valid your marriage is.

          You stupid fools always want to reduce a human being to an object or an animal or some other foolish example. You always inject polygamy in the conversation.

          Polygamy was a hetero invention, and still exist today in some places and it’s all HETERO BITE activity. Has NOTHING to do with gay people, for the millionth time. GOT IT???? 50% of you heteros brake your vowls leaving broken homes and bewildered children, NOT GAYS. It’s you folks that have destroyed the moral frabic of the inner city, with all your hetero baby daddys that never show up, NOT GAYS. Seems so msny of you have scores of gay friends according to you. Even patronize their bars. Hummm maybe you have issues of your own. Remember the first one to scream fagot is always the one with the most to hide. Just look at that nelly queen Lou Sheldon. He is still pissed off he was forced to marry a women in his day, and look what a sour puss he turned out to be. He’s still mad about it. That’s why he hates gays, he is jealous they got to live their life, and has devoted to hateing them.

          Your marrige vowes to the God you believe in are as meaningless as a tin tinker. YOU hetros brake them every minite of every day, and according to YOUR bible leave YOU living in a life of adultury until your first spouce is dead.

          Can you imigine all the sin sick (according to you) ADULTURES headed for the pits of HELL, that are our law makers, revernds, police officers (some of the highest devorice rates) teachers to our children, baby sitters, parents to the next generation, marriage counslers. Some where, YOUR bible says adultery is punishable by stoning.

          Hey 13th know anybody that wasn’t a vergin when they got married? Hey how about your wife and YOU sap. Oh you all were vergins wern’t you. 13TH either ou were the biggest man whore in your neighborhood, or your still a vergin today.

          The ladder is probebly truer. Well your bible says get your ass ready to be taken out and be stoned to death.

          I would be honered to throw the first rock. Let me know then the party of pentence is bud, I’m a great cook (many of US are) and I will invite 100 of my friends and serve the best fried chicken and potato salad THEY ever tasted. After all, nothing but the tastey for a celabration like this.

          How about all YOU heteros creating bastards by breeding children out of wedlock. What does you’re good book say about that? (yes your good book calls them bastards) If we were to apply your god’s law to the standards of biblical morality for the military, we would NOT even have a military PERIOD.

          Over 30 other countries have escaped from the dark ages and now embelish their militaryies with quailified gay men and women who serve them well. The United States the becon of freedom and liberty and justice but is one of only two countries in NATO (the other Turkey) that still function with mid-evile thinking. Even Sam Nunn the right wing nut case that started and perpatrated this injustice in the 90′s has chanded his mind. Imagine that. Yet, you seek out one group of people who want and need the love and companionship of ONE other, and do every thing to try to make their life hell.

          You compare your judgment to biblical standards. How would you compare you and your ilk’s thinking and actions to Jesus when he was here? Is there even one example of Him in the bible sneaking around and plotting with hateful tactics to distroy his fellow man?

          Why don’t you do some real good and take that thousand dollars of hate money’ and do some good with it, like buy Christmas presents and food for the children who’s Hetero parents have thrown them away. I guarntee you will feel a lot better by your act of kindness than using your resources to foster HATE.

          How can you over look the multidude of moral depravations from tens of millions according to your bible, and single out ONE group of people who wouldn’t give you the time of day much less bother you and your life.

          The overwhelming number of murderers, thievs, robbers, thugs, child abandoners, wife beaters, imbezzlers, cheats liers, child molesters, brokers of child sex slavery, law breakers of every discription are heterosexuals.

          Yes and many of them are serving in the military. Remember, according to you gays are only 1% of the population. If “every” gay person in the United Stated were criminals, still the over whelming (by ANY standard) amount of crime and perversion is rooted in the heterosexual community. There have been outstanding gay people in the worlds militarys from the beggining of time. A British subject Alan Turing a gay soldier working for the British intel. broke the German code in WW2. (http:// http://www.turing.uk That played a huge part in winning the war. He may have kept you 13TH from speaking German today. The war may have turned out a lot different if the British had YOUR mind set.

          Why do you religous hypocrits pick on one group of people? Why? because you use gays for fund raising.

          The people that would donate to this fund don’t want to hear about all their sins or the sins of their family and friends. You couldn’t raise 10 cents if you started picking on the sinners your asking money from to make life hell for others. You don’t have communsium any more, we kiss the arses of the biggest pinko commie country in the world for their money, so gays are the last hold out. This is why YOU desprite fools are trying to stuff the toothpaste back in the tube. Sorry fella it aint going to work..

          All these problems in the world, and a few gay people who want to serve their country get all of your attention. Look in the mirror, you can’t help hate what you see.

        • 13th Gen. American

          Again John shows us how good they are at pointing fingers at everyone elses sin to justify their own. Forget the fact I have said many times “We all have sinned and come short of the glory of God” Forget the FACTS that others have given that I dont care to waist my time on repeating because they will just ignore it and come up with more justifications for themselves. Forget the fact that Im not picking one group. It just happens to be the topic here. Forget all the facts just listen to them like children having a fit because we do not condone their bad behavior. Ya all john said might be true about straights and each person is responsible for their own sin. I dont condone any one sins or mine. Im not about to use gays as an excuse or any others for my behavior either. Im not pointing fingers at anyone to make my self feel better about my own self. But this proves again to anyone who reads I never said they were horrid people but just their sin is. And dont you like how they always go to you must be secretly gay? Instead of I liked my friends and just wanted to hang out and party as if they were straight. Its always about them. It infurates them to be told their wrong in any way. I could care less what they say about me.Jesus loves me and thats all I care about.To bad they dont realize he loves them too. Just not their sin.I also find it funny how they are quick to assume I dont give to the poor or hungry or whatever. I forgot I had to give account of all my doings to them. I never assumed anything of them in their life as to what else they did or how they give but the same respect isnt given to me. I assumed roden was a girl but if she is gay would she like better to be called a boy? Dont know so I have used both. Point is they just do not want to recognize their own sin in themselves but are so willing to point out the sin in everyone else. Gays and straights may be the loveliest people, smart ,funny, kind and thoughtfull but it does not justify the sin in any of us and thats a FACT.

      • Denise

        Nobody’s advocating tying someone to a post and hurting them.If you were injured and I came across you ,I would take you home and tend to you.

    • Denise

      Gee if everyone had the same Father and then married each other,what would be the outcome of the unions?

  • 13th Gen. American

    The Military’s Ban Against Homosexuals Should Remain

    by James M. Wallace

    During the first week of his administration, in his zeal to keep at least one of his plethora of campaign promises, Bill Clinton created a political firestorm when he signed an executive order lifting the ban against military service by open, practicing homosexuals. In doing so, he made a grave error which risked damaging the one function of the federal government that actually works.

    For weeks, “experts” who knew nothing of the military experience spouted psychobabble about the military’s “need” to overcome its “homophobia.” The media did their part by parading homosexual commissioned officers (whose experience is hardly representative) who claimed that they performed their duties well and that what they did in private harmed no one. None of this was relevant, and all of it completely missed the point. The real issue was lost in this smoke and mirrors: Is the presence of known, open, practicing homosexuals disruptive to the good order and discipline of military units thus rendering homosexuality incompatible with military service?

    During the controversy, I never heard any input from junior enlisted members (EMs) and junior noncommissioned officers (NCOs) who would be most affected by a change in policy. Junior EMs are usually billeted in roughly 300 square foot, four-man rooms; junior NCOs get similar sized two-man rooms. They all share common latrine and shower facilities. These people are the bulk of the services; they are the military. Having risen through the ranks from Private First Class to Sergeant, my experience as an enlisted soldier is particularly informative.

    There was a time (even as late as one year into my enlistment) when I would have argued for lifting the ban. I have always been somewhat sympathetic towards homosexuals. Having come of age as an atheist in the Bible Belt, I know what it is to be a member of a reviled minority.

    In 1978, when I was a high school junior, former Miss America and entertainer Anita Bryant gained national attention as a leader of a group opposing homosexual teachers in Dade County, Florida public schools. She went on to found and lead a “pro-God, pro-family” organization and traveled around the country helping local citizens successfully oppose “gay-rights” laws.

    As an atheist, I definitely regarded her as a threat whether one was straight or not. For extra credit in a creative writing class, I wrote a two-page poem against her and her activities entitled “The History of Annie Bryant.” In it I referred to her followers as “her fellow fools,” claimed that she was appealing “to emotion and not to reason,” and implied that she was a threat to “life and liberty.” I ended the poem, “And now that old bat Annie/Is spreading her sickness into California/With a spearhead of ignorance and fear/And we’ve got to stop her before it’s too late.”

    As a student here at UNCG, I definitely went to school with homosexuals. In Spring 1985, as a member of the Student Senate Judicial Committee, I helped push impeachment proceedings against a fellow senator who had disrupted our meeting after we had voted $50 for refreshments for a talk on lesbian nuns sponsored by the Gay and Lesbian Student Association.

    In my last civilian job prior to joining the Army, my manager and three of my four coworkers were homosexuals. One of my coworkers had been voluntarily separated from the Navy due to homosexuality. I was “open-minded” enough to put up with his vain, and in vain, attempts to seduce me before I went back to school.

    In basic training, during an equal opportunity class given by our company’s senior drill sergeant, one of my fellow recruits asked, “Isn’t the Army’s policy against homosexuals discriminatory?” The big NCO allowed himself a moment of humor and enthusiastically and gleefully replied, “Oh, yeah!”

    We all laughed, but I remember thinking how narrow-minded and ignorant he was. As an “enlightened” college boy, I arrogantly assumed my own moral superiority. But theory and practice are often very different, and I received my comeuppance in the fullness of time.

    During the middle of the second year of my enlistment, I began to suspect that two of my roommates were having a homosexual affair. They were keeping it out of the barracks, so I wasn’t sure.

    Other soldiers had begun to take notice as well. I was often asked what was up with them. I would feign ignorance and answer, “I don’t know; what do you mean?” I knew full well what they meant, and their suspicions lent credence to my own.

    I returned to our room late one night and discovered the two of them asleep in the same bunk. They were under the covers, in each other’s arms, face-to-face, with very contented expressions on their faces. I no longer had any doubts. They were starting to awaken so I decided that it would be best just to go to bed as if I had seen nothing. As I turned out my lamp and settled into bed, the one scurried back to his own bunk.

    The next morning, wanting to determine what I had seen, they asked me when I had gotten in the night before. I didn’t want them to know that I had discovered them. In the Army, your roommates are fellow squad members and naturally your friends as well. If they knew that I knew about them, I risked alienating them because they would view me as a threat who might not keep his silence. If I did indeed keep my silence after affirming that I had seen them, I would become complicitous in their violation of Army regulations and would be in violation myself because I would have failed to report a known violation. Neither alternative seemed particularly desirable. To buy more time and to protect myself, I claimed that I didn’t really remember due to the effects of good German beer.

    They became emboldened and continued their affair in our room which they turned into their own love nest. For three weeks, I endured being locked out of my room and interrupting whatever it was that they were doing so that I could get in. Obviously, I knew what they were about, and just as obviously, they knew that I knew.

    I finally decided that I had no choice but to inform our superiors. I asked our platoon sergeant how to get a couple of homosexuals out of the Army. He knew to whom I was referring. The command was informed of the situation, but it was determined that nothing could be done legally as it was a case of my word against theirs.

    I wanted to move into another room, but there was no extra space. Anyway, the problem would be partially solved when one of my roommates was transferred back to the States during our upcoming field exercise, but I was stuck with them both for ten days. When I was in the room, they would have the vilest conversations about me as though I wasn’t even there. They did everything they could to make me feel uncomfortable in my own room. My sleep was light, fitful, and brief; I often woke up several times a night in order to check on my well-being. I spent as little time as possible in my room, and I was never so glad to go to the field.

    Military units are worse than small towns. Everyone was aware of the situation. My roommates’ affair had pushed our unit out of its normal rhythms. The feeling of trust had been violated. My roommates became the focus of unit discontent.

    The presence of known homosexuals is disruptive to the good order and discipline of military units. When my roommates became a couple, they ceased to be members of our unit in a social and emotional sense. They became so obsessed with one another and their relationship that they couldn’t or wouldn’t fulfill their responsibilities to the rest of us. Their commitment to one another negated the required loyalty to the Army and to their fellow soldiers. They willfully violated the regulations and policies of an organization that they freely joined. Not only were they abusive to me, they were defensive and confrontational with other members of our unit. They acted as though we and the Army were the ones who were wrong. For our part, we others couldn’t and wouldn’t accept their relationship. This exacerbated the situation and turned it into them against us. This state of affairs was intolerable.

    Barracks life is highly communal, and privacy is very limited, but these conditions foster the camaraderie and the unit cohesion that is vital to the proper functioning of a combat-ready force. In the military, respect and loyalty between members is powerful enough to transcend almost every animosity. One is constantly aware of the fact that the SOB down the hall could very well be the SOB who comes between you and death. One disrupts the process at the risk of needlessly lost lives when war becomes a painful necessity. Males have a natural discomfort for homosexuality and intuitively know that they are not to relate to one another in that manner. In the close quarters of the barracks, this discomfort becomes a vital animosity which cannot be transcended.

    The advocates for lifting the ban assume that homosexuals would “check their sexuality at the door” of their barracks. The opponents of lifting the ban and the militant homosexuals seeking an end to it agree that this is ludicrous. The advocates’ assumption requires that homosexuals remain celibate because any expression of sexuality will probably end up in the barracks. The extreme promiscuity of male homosexuals makes this an inevitability.

    After one roommate shipped back to the States, the remaining roommate continued his homosexual lifestyle while not quite openly but very obviously. His “dates” would visit him in our room much to the consternation of myself, my other roommates, and others in our barracks. He ended up having an affair with a supply clerk in one of the (all-male) infantry companies. This clerk had his own room, and they spent their weekends together there. I would often run into “grunts” from this unit. After learning to what unit I belonged, they would ask me if I knew my roommate. I would affirm that I did, and they would inquire as to his sexuality to confirm their suspicions. I would affirm that they were indeed correct. To assuage their remaining doubt, they would ask me if I was certain. I would answer very authoritatively, “He’s one of my roommates.” They would shower me with condolences. I would thank them for their kindness, and wryly tell them, “It’s not so bad; there used to be two of them.” They would commiserate with me some more, acknowledge that they probably couldn’t deal with the situation, and admire my sense of humor in the face of adversity.

    The real objective of those seeking to lift the ban is not the end of some perceived injustice but the normalization of homosexuality. This is entirely unacceptable. While a society can tolerate some deviancy on its fringes, it cannot accept it within its mainstream. Homosexuality represents a threat in that it creates an inappropriate sexual outlet that corrupts the natural relations between men and women. If increasing numbers of men and women opt out of child-bearing and child-rearing and choose “alternative” lifestyles instead, our society increasingly will be unable to renew and maintain itself and will ultimately founder. Those who choose the “traditional” lifestyle will find their task made more difficult by a disintegrating social structure.

    As an aside, opposing the normalization of homosexuality is not advocating violence against homosexuals. One of the functions of society is create a sense a personal security for its members. Individuals who engage in “fag-bashing” are criminals and should be treated as such.

    The military is not a suitable subject for experiments in social engineering such as the normalization of homosexuality. Our armed forces exist for the sole purpose of defending our country and our way of life. Anything that interferes with this function is a threat to our society and must be opposed vigorously.

    The outrage expressed by veterans such as myself is well justified. We sacrificed part of our lives and part of ourselves by serving in our country’s armed forces. We gave up far too much to stand by idly while those who “loathe the military” attempt to destroy that which we made part of ourselves, that which we will always love.

  • 13th Gen. American

    These above articles are long but since I am admittedly not elegant in my speech I think they best represent how I feel. There is the last of which was stated before. In Gods eyes its a sin and his opinion is what matters most. 13th

    • 13th Gen. American

      Before I go out of town I like to stress one point. It is Gos law’s an his word that matter above all, but He knew we as humans given our free will would choose to follow our own wants and desires. Also we would try to justify them any way we could to make us feel better about them. If that didnt work we’d turn our back on God and his laws all together. It doesnt matter what the sin is, “For we all have sinned and come short of the glory of God.” That is what Jesus is for. He loved us, me and roden and everyone else on this planet equally. He took our sins on himself when he dies on the cross. He gives us his glory so when we face God we are seen in Jesus glorious nature, not our own sinful one. I cannot justify and excuse my own sins. I know there is no way Im going to get to heaven on my own accord. Because I admit im a sinner and asked Jesus to forgive me I will see the glory of God. I am still so not perfect, just forgiven. Now Roden and all gays or straight alike can be the nicest sweetest most wonderful people around but without Christ they are absent from God. We all have a choice in life to accept Christ or not. I choose Jesus. Now knowing just how he suffered, an innocent person, who took my sin and the sin of anyone who believes. because he loves me enough to die, how can I turn my back on him? How can I justify and apease other sinners just because they may or may not directly harm me when I can not justify my own sin? I cannot turn my back on Christ no matter what others believe or think of Him. I cannot let things happen around me without doing something however small it is to stand up for Christ name when he has done so much for me. The world will call Christians haters and such, God said so, “You will be hated for my names sake.” But I know where the hate comes from. Not Roden or anyone who hates being told their wrong but by the god of this world,satan that so easily blinds and deceives people. I can only pray people see the light of Christ who loves us all, gay or straight and anything inbetween,and anyone who reads this knows the love of Christ. 13th

      • rodin

        13… I am so tired of your psychobabble god shit. You can’t post a decent response of any logic without bringing your god into the equation. All of your arguments have been completely laid to waste for moronic bigotry that they show. And less you cry to mommy that I’m calling you names, look up the definition of both moronic and bigotry….. both of which are applicable to you. And for the record, I don’t hate people that hate others… merely need to fight against their omnipresent danger to my constitutional rights. And you obviously have a deep seated hatred borne from your religion, either you were raised with it or you grew into it because the hatred was more comfortable. You can quote your bible as much as you want…. but it seems to me that if you believe in a god, you also believe he gave you a brain with which to think. Obviously you have thrown away that gift.

        The ability to reason and create logical didactic are the cornerstones of philosophy and the way that our society operates with a multiplexity of different cultures and ideas. If you can only spout religious hatred and vile bigotry while reciting passages from a fairy tale of a book, then you have nothing to add to this conversation. Good day

        • 13th Gen. American

          I looked it up. I saw the name Roden. And of course there is no logic for you from God because he does not condone your sin. Its an “Abomination” for Him. The fact you cannot discern the difference between hating ones actions without hating that person shows that you are the hater here. There is no hate from me to you as p person. Only pitty And as for the name calling. You can dish it but you cant take it. I have many many rants from you where you call anyone who does not condone your sin all sorts of names. Grow up and get over yourself. The majority of people do not believe anything you say or your “Facts” because they are based on your justification of self indulgent desires and not on GOD’s FACTS. Weither you believe it or not. Good day to you too sweetie. Have a nice life.

      • rodin

        So who else do you hate – Jews, Chinks, Blacks, foreigners, Catholics, Muslims, French, your neighbor… who else does your god tell you to hate and despise… Almost every atrocity in human history has been committed on the basis of religion or cultural homogeneity. We had your Christian church against the scientists, we have the Nazi’s against the Jews, we have the baptists and episcopalians against the blacks… the list goes on… so how much more bigotry do you want to be responsible for in the name of your god.

        Maybe you stopped bashing gays with your fists, but you certainly want to keep doing it with your words. It’s time for you to stop and act decent for a change.

        • 13th Gen. American

          See again and again you just prove my points. When did I ever say I hated you personally? NEVER just your sin. Also you dont even know anything about me. How do you know Im not black or a Jew or anything else? Thats just more stupid shit flowing from your sad self to point the fingers at others. If it makes you feel better and somehow superior to blame me for all the ills of the world then go right ahead. I do hope that when you face God and you try all this crap on him that I can watch. Its going to be good.

        • rodin

          I know that you hate and are condoning if not preaching bigotry against one group of people. How many others would you treat as second class citizens. Deny them rights, take their taxes, preach that they are immoral and should be looked down upon… How many rights would you deny them. You already say they shouldn’t be able to get common law equity with respect to legislated and tax rights for couples, you already say they shouldn’t be allowed to serve in the military, perhaps they shouldn’t be allowed in certain other professions too, maybe we should ban them from being teachers…. how about doctors and lawyers and god forbid we should let them be scientists or garbage collectors or engineers… Maybe we should ban them from owning property in certain locations, we wouldn’t want a lesbian couple next door to a school or to a church. Maybe we should strip them of their parental rights. You obviously don’t want them to teach their children to love and respect others. How many other rights do you want to enforce against gays in our society. Maybe we should just ship them all to camps and never have to look at them again or worry about what they’re doing with each other behind closed doors. Maybe our best scientists should spend billions of dollars to make a pill and get rid of gayness forever. There’s your arguments taken to any logical conclusion. Or perhaps you could clarify and tell us really what rights you think gays should have, because obviously I’ve put words in your mouth that you don’t really mean,… now do you? A bigot is a bigot regardless of whether it’s a Jew, a black, a Catholic a gay or whatever you else you dream up to create a separate class. I don’t know about stupid shit… all I know is you are a bigot and your attitudes are the same as those who lynched or gassed or imprisoned others.

        • 13th Gen. American

          A bigot is also a gay who hates being told their wrong and goes on a hate spewed rampage concocting all sorts of scenarios to justify their their perversion. But more please. Im sure this last one will just fuel the fire for even more people to sign the petition to keep our society safe from crazed lunatics like you. I dont care if you straight or gay but you sweetheart got some serious issues. Ps I never said they shouldnt be allowed to serve. Just keep it to yourself.

        • 13th Gen. American

          PS Although I personally have never used the word “Chink” I do believe they dont like it and it is a raciest and bigot remark. Coming from such a loving, superior and liberal minded person as you it does make you look bad. But heres the thing. I do believe you have a crush on me Roden. Why else would you be so concerned of what I think? Its OK . I too have grown fond of you. Much love back at you too John. So I will be going out of town and wont be able to humor you any more for a while. Im sure well meet again.Therefore Ill let you have the last word. I already know what youll say. Im responsible for killing the last unicorn, and only because of 1 gay guy the war was won,and Im a hater meanie poophead. Go on give me all you got. I can take it. So then when your done venting at me that way, go find a pillow and punch it REAL hard. Say 13x in honor of me. Vent all your hate at me from your anger at society, your parents,God, yourself.Then when your all done blaming me for all the wrong that ever happened/ will happen/might happen/never happened, go have some camomile tea and chill. Its OK. I do not hate you. I do feel for you though. I do. So all sarcasm aside. I will be praying for you. I will be giving your name to some people that are ex-gay christians for them to pray over your name. I will pray that you will know how much God loves you even though you hate Him. His son Jesus loves you and died for you. May you someday know his peace and love and grace. 13th

  • John S

    13 in your response to my post there was all the usual diatribe, but there was statement that caught my eye. You said ………

    “Point is they just do not want to recognize their own sin in themselves but are so willing to point out the sin in everyone else”

    Ahaaa I think you have missed the entire point of this room. The subject is why those in power are not disagreeing with the DADT endorsed by many who never spent a day in their life GAY or ever spent a moment of their life in the military.

    This and many rooms like this start off with the like of you reprinting speeches articles
    advocating the argument that gays are not fit to serve their country, when time and time again scores of brilliant military personal that exceed all expectations in any of the 4 services are sought out and thrown out of the military.

    Some that have performed services to the country that not even one tenth of one percent of other enlistees have come close to. As a result the country suffers from the absence of their talent and service, but they are punished not for their lack of performance, (many have been metaled for service beyond the call of duty) but for their honesty in saying who they are, and not what they have done.

    Now 13 lets take some of your statements We are ALL sinners including YOU, but that includes each and every one in the military. If being a sinner disqualifies you from serving and dieing if necessary for your country, wouldn’t it make sense to interrogate each and everyone in the service and eliminate all sinners because they are not fit to serve this country? Or is this a selective sin operation. As you and your ilk determined, …. not having the ware-with-all in your mental composition to be attracted to the opposite sex must be the greatest sin of all, weather you act on it or not, just being truthful and admitting it, qualifies you to be singled out, castigated, and
    banished from the multitudes.

    If this is not mid evil thinking, straight out of the dark ages I don’t know what is.

    Wasn’t it very similar thinking that resulted in scores of women burned at the stake in Salem Mass?

    Then there is the real question, what do we do with the millions of sinners of every description left to fight our wars? After all we expell soldiers when we have determined their sinners.

    Maybe YOU 13 should be given the duty of recruiting “THE ALL SAINTS BRIGADE” to replace the sinners we must expel.

    A sin is a sin isn’t it?
    Why stop with gay soldiers?
    Lets really clean this military up.

    n Viet Nam and in other wars (Korea and the Philippines and more) the US government actually accommodated servicemen by setting up brothels for the use of service men in their off time.

    These houses of repute were staffed largely by the same type of personal they are today, girls 10 years old some older but some even younger.

    The youngest ones were generally used for oral copulation on service personal, while the 13, 14 and older ones did what ever the GI requested. It was all about the GI’s money.

    How many children were sired by GI’s and left when the war was over?

    Now think about it, as WW2 and Viet Nam wound up, the Russian and US soldiers raped thousands of German girls and women, in large and small villages.

    Americans of course only recorded the rapes by the Russians, but it is common knowledge Americans raped their share while their CO’s looked the other way.

    This was not love makeing this was vengons.

    It was thought of as the spoils of war.

    That’s right, the very military that aided and abetted adultery, fornication, and the molestation and rape of girls and small children and looked the other way while GI’s raped the female population, are telling James Pietrangelo II, the former Army infantryman and veteran of two Iraq wars, who was discharged in 2004 after revealing he was gay, YOU ARE WAY TO BIG A SINNER FOR US.

    Thanks for your exemplary service, your devotion to country, risking life and limb for The United States, not once but twice in two conflicts.

    I can hear it now at the board of inquire.

    How is it possible soldier, that a man could fight with the best, be so highly respected by your fellow Conrad’s, excel at everything you do, and not date women?.

    We can not believe it, we don’t agree with it, we do not have the ability to comprehend it, and until we do PACK UP YOUR SHIT AND GET THE HELL OUT OF HERE. YOU ARE JUST NOT OUR BRAND OF SINNER.

    Well it IS all about SIN isn’t it?

    NOW LETS REVIEW YOUR QUOTE ONCE AGAIN.

    “Point is they just do not want to recognize their own sin in themselves but are so willing to point out the sin in everyone else”

    Yes 13, I think you have a point.

  • 13th Gen. American

    Once again its all about pointing fingers at straight to justify your actions. As for the shit that happened in the wars, None of the men in our family condone that behavior. As For serving I myself never did. Life led me in another direction but I do support them in other ways. Now both my Grandfathers served in WWII, 2 Grandparents in Civil. Both wounded. 1 Grandfather right after Civil as soon as he turned of age. And 7 Uncles in WWll. 2 Uncles in WWl. One had a severe face burn from mustard gas.I have their records. They records are perfect. I also have about 10 living cousins I am aware of who were in one or more events in since WWll and a son in law in Iraq. This is his 5th time over there in 18 years. None of this is counting in-laws. So as far as I know we did not do any of the above crimes nor do they condone it. I am so very happy for your gay fella who saved the free world by breaking the code but I do think my Grandfather who was a grunt trapesing all over Afria and Europe in the mists of it all seeing friends suffer and die,for over 5 years. and the one who was a frog man at Normandy might have had a tiny part in it. Not that they would try to take credit for themselves. Also maybe you forget all the other thousands and thousands that never saw home again ore the ones that came back in pieces or even the ones that came back from all the wars unscathed physically but left behind their soul and spirit and brothers behind. All the millions who suffered in the freezing cold with the least of necessities and or the scorching heat of africa,asia,nam. I am dear friends with a man who was first at a camp. He saved Jews Christians and Homosexuals. I do think these millions of men might have had a little something to do with saving us all and our not speaking german. And I do think there has been injustace done to them from time to time. But of all the people I know none of them did any of the acts you mentioned but you dare to justify 1 man with the vile acts of the few straight guys and act as if none of the gays ever did any of the above mentioned. Nor the above mentioned before where you went on and on with other peoples sins. No gays have ever committed any crime or sin you mentioned ever. It is a sin, Yes but also the vast majority of men in the service are straight. You in your world that revolves around you would never consider the fact that it is repulsive to straight guys. Or the fact they dont care if your there just keep it to yourself. But along with self indulgent behavior comes the lack of seeing past it. The letter from the atheist who served is a clear statement of what happens if gays come out in the military. I put it there to see what someone who isnt a christian thinks of it all but yet you disregard it and just come up with lame ass shit to continue your behavior. I think the disrespect you have for all the straight men and women who served and left a piece of themselves on the battle field by comparing them to the few who are criminals is a clear reflection of just how sad and pathetic you are in your own sickness. Forget how the majority feels or believes. We have to now all kiss ass to the enlightened never do wrong gays. We as a society have to give into the whims and sexual perversions of the 1 percent. I dont think so. If the vast majority of men and women in the service prerfer not to have open gays around to destroy the unity of the unit then keep it to yourself. Those are the rules to have a fully functioning unit. If you want to serve, serve but dont expect people to like it. I feel for the guy but he knew what was what before he went. Gays put themselves in situations and then cry about it like they didnt know what would happen. Seriously now do you really think your pointing of fingers at straights justifys yourself. No. Do you really think you are going to convience anyone with your “Facts”? Nope. Do you really think all that bullshit moronic selfrichious gays never do wrong blablabla is helping your cause. Nada. What it is doing is proving your hypocritical take me as I am and respect me but I dont have to give you the same respect rhetoric is proving my point. I havnt given indepth facts because it would be a huge waste of my time repeating what others have already said in numerous places. Also If you dont care what God says you could care less about real FACTS. from me and others. Why should I waste my time. The fact is straight people find homosexuality repulsive and know its like a cancer in society much like AIDS which the gays brought to us all. FACT.So by your standards we should now be accepting of ever ones sins. So let the man/boy lovers have the same rights. They think in their minds they were born that way. So do animal lovers and poligimest and petifiles and all sorts of deranges sexual perversions. So let them marry their goat and sister and daughters and next door neighbors 5 year old. Let them serve in the military and be whatever they see fit in society. Let them do it all because we have to now apease gays who feel they are getting a raw deal. ALL of the above mentioned feel the same way you do about yourself. Lets see if you want to serve beside a child molester or rapist. Put your life in the hands of serial killers. Im sure ol Jeffery thought he was born to eat the flesh of young boys. I think that was his defense. He had a hankerin for them since he can remember.He was just expressing himself through cannibalism ya know .To bad hes dead you could invite him over for dinner and have a nice chat. You screw ‘em and he’ll filet’em. But your honor. I am but a poor shepherd. I have grown awfuly found of my goat Daisy here. She helped me through long lonely nights. I want to marry her and then use the tax right off for my other 600 head of goats. If I am to take your thinking to the logical conclusion then there ya go. I now pronounce you man and wife and father and daughter/cousin. These people are just as convinced they do no wrong . And according to you oh enlightened one your OK with all that and if you had a child and it was molested youd be just fine with it because that person as lusted after 6 year olds, since pretty Sally in the 1st grade. Dont come back at me with its different because you might not like it but those people have every right to be who they feel they are inside. So there is no logic to your logical conclusion. You make my points for me and give me fuel to get these subjects voted against when they come up. Especially when I copy this one and how highly you think of our service men and women. Ill be sending it off in an e-mail to all my military familys and then they will be sending it out and before you know it more and more of these horrid military personel will soon know what gays think of them. Im sure they will enjoy it as much as I. Im also sure it will serve my cause more than yours. Have a lovely day there fella. 13

    • rodin

      So now you’re equating homosexuality with serial killers and child molesters. I’d tell you how sick you are, but there’s probably a lot more people out there that have similar thoughts.

      People born with homosexual attraction represent less than 10% of the population so they are an easy target for you and your friends.

      I hope you eventually learn to deal with your hatred.

      • 13th Gen. American

        To straight people your perversion is no different than theirs. Maybe you dont kill or molest but it is still as vile and the point is these people believe as you do that there is nothing wrong with what they do. It is their right to do them. They were born that way. Your excuses and justifications work for them too. But you that are so enlightened should be with OK with that.

        • rodin

          Wow.. You do equate the actions of morality with those of physical protection. You are seriously f@#$ed up. So adultery is the same as stealing. Paying for sex with a hooker is equivalent to wife-beating. Two women loving each other is the same as Jeffrey Dalmer killing his victims.

          Society has no right to police moral issues…. it’s only obligation is to protect the well-being of it’s individual citizens from each other. Your god can figure out the punishments for moral crimes on judgement day.

  • 13th Gen. American

    Warning: They Are Now Becoming Violent by Perry Stone,

    In the days of Lot, the young and old men had given themselves over to very vile sexual perversions. This is why the name of the city was called “Sodom.” The Bible tells us that Lot was “vexed daily with the filthy conversation of the wicked” (2 Peter 2:7). We are told in the book of Jasher that there were four judges in the five cities mentioned in Genesis 14:1-2. The judges passed laws that beds could be placed in the streets so strangers entering the city could be laid in the beds and sexual acts could be preformed on them (Jasher 19:3). Thus it was the judges who voted for organized perversion to be allowed in the cities. It doesn’t end there.

    When the two men (angels) entered the city, Lot met them at the gate and demanded they stay in his house. At night, the men wanted to go outside and check out the city and Lot told them not to. It was too dangerous. Suddenly, the old and young men came to Lot’s door and wanted the two strangers to “know” which means have sexual relations with them (Gen.19:5). When Lot refused, he shut his door and the man almost broke the door down, burning with their lusts to have these two men! It took a supernatural act of God (blindness) to prevent the rape of two men!

    Here is the point. When the men of Sodom became violent against the righteous, the following day Lot escaped and the fire fell on Sodom, making this famous city a pile of ashes. Recently in California, the people voted down gay marriage, saying that they believe it should be between a man and a woman. Immediately, the gays began marching, then protesting in front of churches and then in some areas began entering churches, screaming, threatening and throwing bulletins. One older woman in a march for marriage was confronted by gay men, who began shoving her, causing her cross to fall to the ground, where it was stomped on.

    I was very disturbed to hear what just occurred in San Francisco. Two women were on the street praying in the gay district. Suddenly they were noticed and hundreds of gay activists rushed on them, throwing a blanket over their heads, taking the Bible and hitting them on the head, and threatening to kill them. As they began to sing Amazing Grace, the gay group began singing “We shall overcome.” Eventually the police were called and told the women to leave because their lives were in danger. As I read this article on World Net Daily, I began to realize that God did not send judgment to Sodom until they became violent against the righteous!

    It is either a sign or a strange “coincidence” that when the courts in California passed the gay marriage act in May of 2008, immediately lightning began striking all around the Bay area. In a few weeks there were 8,000 fires burning throughout the state. After the vote in November that banned gay marriage and the protestors began to march, fires began to burn down the homes of many wealthy individuals in California. Remember, the judgment that came against Sodom was a judgment of fire. Josephus wrote about it when he said;

    “Two daughters still virgins…for those that were betrothed (engaged) to them
    were above the thoughts of going and deemed that Lot’s words were trifling. God thenncast a thunderbolt upon the which and set it one fire with its inhabitants and laid waste the country…” – Josephus: Antiquities Bk.1; Ch.11

    Notice the word “thunderbolt.” Did massive lightning set the city on fire? Whatever occurred, it happened after the Sodomites became violent and threatened the righteous. In the New Testament there is a strong warning about any nation that follows the same patterns of Sodom:

    “As Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in a similar manner to these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.” - Jude 7

    “And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes, condemned them to destruction, making them an example to those who afterward would live ungodly.”
    2 Peter 2:6
    We have already seen the devastation of two American cities on the coasts: New Orleans and Galveston, Texas. Do your own research, and discover the hidden clue as to what may have (and probably did) remove the protective hedge from this area. It is sad, because it “rains on the just and the unjust,” and just as Lot lost his home and had to relocate, many good people have had to relocate from these cities. However, God does take care of those who will follow him, despite times of great difficulty.

    We are in a season where we will see selective judgment. Is the economic crisis a sign of the removing of America’s golden calf? Time will tell! It is time to preach the truth and stand with the Word!

    ©2008 – 2009 Perry Stone Ministries — Site Design by WinWorld

  • Paul

    Preventing open display of homosexuality in the military is not about equal rights or bigotry by lawmakers. It is about making the armed forces the best they can be, and preventing a disruption in the esprit de corps. Without a doubt, open homosexuality causes problems amongst a significant percentage of military personnel and a weakening of front-line effectiveness. It is a social agenda, and not a military one.

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