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Some Countries Ban GMOs, But Not The United States Of Monsanto

December 17, 2012 by  

Some Countries Ban GMOs, But Not The United States Of Monsanto
PHOTOS.COM

America was once the breadbasket for the world. Produce grown in the U.S. fed people across the globe. No longer.

Now countries are banning U.S. foods in an effort to spare their citizens from the health hazards of genetically modified foods, also known as genetically modified organisms, or GMOs.

Monsanto leads the way in GMO foods. About 90 percent of all corn, soybeans and cotton are grown from genetically engineered seeds. The genetically modified products are now found in about 70 percent of all American processed food. And Monsanto controls about 90 percent of all genetically engineered seeds.

In other words, Monsanto has almost a complete monopoly on the U.S. food supply. It accomplished this by becoming the fourth branch of government. There is a revolving door between government regulatory agencies, Congressional staffs and Big Agriculture companies Monsanto, Dow and Bayer. Michael Taylor is a perfect example.

Taylor is the Deputy Commission for Foods for the Food and Drug Administration. Over his career he has jumped from the FDA to a law firm representing Monsanto (where he worked specifically for Monsanto), back to the FDA, over to the United States Department of Agriculture, back to the law firm, over to Monsanto, to a think tank, to a university and back to the FDA.

During his second tenure at the FDA the agency’s policies regarding GMOs were changed to allow them pass without scrutiny.

GMOs are hazardous to the people and animals exposed to them, as I wrote here. Unfortunately, avoiding GMOs is becoming an impossible task.

GMOs got their start at a Monsanto plant in the backwaters of Louisiana. During the 1970s, Monsanto was one of the nation’s largest chemical companies. It has a patent on a product named glyphosate, which it markets as Roundup. Roundup is a weed killer, and since its weed-killing properties broke down quickly in the soil, farmers could coat the ground with it to kill the vegetation and then plant crops a short time later.

At the Louisiana plant, organisms that could withstand glyphosate were found growing in waste ponds. Scientists isolated and extracted the gene that gave them tolerance to the chemical and began placing that gene into soybeans and corn. The result is what is known as Roundup Ready crops: crops that can withstand repeated sprayings of Roundup during the growing season.

But glyphosate is now showing up in ground water in unhealthy levels miles removed from the farms at which it is used. Traces are even being found in the urine of city dwellers. It also crosses the placental barrier and is found in the blood of unborn children.

The technology used to make crops Roundup Ready has evolved to where pesticides are now also placed within seeds, making them resistant to the pests.

But these “advances” are having deleterious effects on nature. Just as increased use of antibiotics have begun creating antibiotic resistant “superbugs,” use of Roundup Ready crops is creating “frankenweeds” that are impervious to herbicides and use of seeds containing pesticides are creating “frankenbugs” that withstand and even thrive on the plants. But it’s decimating the populations of the pollinators. It has led to colony collapse disorder and a world-wide shortage of honeybees, and has begun wiping out Monarch butterfly populations.

As I wrote here, Big Agriculture is engaging in agricultural terrorism in America.

The very American farmers that Big Agriculture is supposed to help and that the FDA and USDA are supposed to protect are increasingly being victimized. In addition to being able to withstand herbicides and pests, many GMO plants are designed to not reproduce. So rather than save a portion of the seeds for next year’s crops, farmers are forced to purchase new seeds each year. And the cost of those seeds is rising faster than inflation and far faster than the prices of the crops they produce.

But even farmers who reject GMOs are being victimized. Big Agriculture has won numerous multi-million dollar lawsuits against innocent farmers whose non-GMO produce was contaminated by pollination—either by natural pollinators or the wind—from adjacent GMO farms.

Other countries are recognizing that the harmful effects of GMO foods far outweigh any perceived benefits.

The U.S. and the European Union are currently negotiating—and have been for years—a free trade agreement. But the agreement is being held up by what the U.S. considers the EU’s “nonscientific” approach to food safety. In other words, the EU is rejecting GMOs and chickens cleaned with chlorine.

The EU has blocked imports of U.S. GMO corn and soybeans, poultry treated with chlorine dioxide, beef treated with lactic acid to kill pathogens and pork produced from hogs fed ractopamine, a leaning agent. The regulatory hurdles are infuriating U.S. farmers who see them as nothing more than protectionism for European farmers. In fact, it’s protectionism for European consumers.

In 2008, France banned the insect-resistant corn strain MON810 (marketed as YieldGard) following public protests. The ban was overturned by a French court in 2011, but last March the French government reinstated it. The EU’s Food Safety Authority overturned it again in May. Still, other EU nations have complete or partial bans in place.

Who else is rejecting GMOs? Russia, for one. Following the French study that showed that rats fed GMO corn over their lifetime developed massive cancer tumors, Russia’s consumer protection group Rospotrebnadzor said it was halting all imports of GMO corn until the country’s Institute of Nutrition has a chance to evaluate the study.

Peru passed legislation in April 2011 that banned GMOs anywhere in the country for 10 years. The worry there is that the introduction of GMOs will compromise the native species of Peru, such as the giant white corn, purple corn and the famous species of Peruvian potatoes. Anibal Huerta, President of Peru’s Agrarian Commission, said the ban was needed to prevent the”danger that can arise from the use of biotechnology.”

Despite the ban, tests conducted by the Peruvian Association of Consumers and Users found that 77 percent of supermarket products tested contained GMO contaminants.

Just last month the Kenyan Ministry of Public Health ordered public health officials to remove all GMO foods from the market and enforce a ban on GMO imports. Citing the French study, Minister for Public Health Beth Mugo said there were concerns about the safety of GMO foods that need to be addressed.

Indeed there are, but expecting the U.S. fascist system to address them is unreasonable. And as evidenced by the fraud surrounding the recent California Proposition 37 election, gaining ground against agricultural terrorism at the ballot box is impossible.

Consumers have to reject GMO foods and hit Big Agriculture in the pocketbooks. It’s all they understand. You can begin by downloading the non-GMO shopping guide here.

Bob Livingston

is an ultra-conservative American who has been writing a newsletter since 1969. Bob has devoted much of his life to research and the quest for truth on a variety of subjects. Bob specializes in health issues such as nutritional supplements and alternatives to drugs, as well as issues of privacy (both personal and financial), asset protection and the preservation of freedom.

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  • Vigilant

    “But it’s decimating the populations of the pollinators. It has led to colony collapse disorder and a world-wide shortage of honeybees…”

    At the moment, that’s speculative. There is no conclusive evidence that GMO practices/effects are a sole proximate cause of CCD, but it may be a contributing factor. Suspects are malnutrition, migratory beekeeping, parasites and pathogens, lack of biogenetic diversity, and others.

    General farming practices, including pesticides and environmental toxins may also contribute.

    “Another suspect in the case is the pollen of genetically modified crops, specifically corn altered to produce Bt (Bacillus thuringiensis) toxin. Most researchers agree that exposure to Bt pollen alone is not a likely cause of Colony Collapse Disorder. Not all hives foraging on Bt pollen succumbed to CCD, and some CCD-impacted colonies never foraged near genetically modified crops. However, a possible link may exist between Bt and disappearing colonies when those bees had compromised health for other reasons. German researchers note a possible correlation between exposure to Bt pollen and compromised immunity to the fungus Nosema. (http://insects.about.com/od/antsbeeswasps/tp/CausesofCCD.htm)

    • Robert Smith

      Something we agree on Vigilant.

      I also have to ask WHY are subsidies given to big agriclulture? They are making tons of money.

      Rob

      • http://www.facebook.com/rhonda.reichel Rhonda Reichel

        My goats have sure shown signs of poisoning….they have low birth rates, premature and still born. I can’t get regular corn in Texas 80% is GMO. I’ve contacted the feed stores to no avail.

      • Jim H.

        The big farm coops are making money from subsidies, not the small farmers who try to stay away from the GMO’s. They have to keep fighting with monsanto if their crops get contaminated by Monsanto’s gmo crops.

      • http://none Jude

        I agree Robert

        • macgyver1948

          Robert Smith and Jude… Big Agriculture, Big Pharm, Big Oil, Banks, Etc – BIG CORPORATIONS IN GENERAL. These are the entities the Founding Fathers warned us about. Government Of The People has fully become Government Of The Corporate People (any resemblance to the GOP is totally real but it is not just them), nothing new there.

          For you to ask “WHY are subsidies given to big agriclulture?” is a mute point since they are part of the controlling interest in Government. The point is that these corporations do make “tons of money” as you say but they have loads of help from the elected they bought. We the people are here only to buy and consume their crap and, oh yeah, vote for their “representatives” and we keep voting them in. It is all about the economic development of the corporations and so many in government, with one side of the aisle more so with their conflict-of-interest pledges and other commitments, is there to protect and defend them.

          “I hope we shall crush in its birth the aristocracy of our monied corporations which dare already to challenge our government to a trial by strength, and bid defiance to the laws of our country.” – Thomas Jefferson

          Thomas Jefferson got it right when in 1802 he wrote, “I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies. If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their currency, first by inflation, then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around the banks will deprive the people of all property—until their children wake up homeless in the continent their fathers conquered.”

          There are many more of these quotes from the Founders warning us. We are all being “thrown under the bus” if we aren’t a big corporation; we are only told we aren’t by the representatives many of us vote for. I hope I answered your question, or was it rhetorical? LOL

    • http://www.boblivingstonletter.com/ Bob Livingston

      Dear Vigilant,

      You write: “At the moment, that’s speculative.” It’s much more than speculative, but it will be impossible for an “independent agency” to determine the cause with this sort of thing going on. http://naturalsociety.com/monsanto-bee-collapse-buys-bee-research-firm/

      Best wishes,
      Bob

      • Right Brain Thinker

        Sorry, Bob, but it’s not “speculative”. And we could speculate why Monsanto bought the bee research firm. You imply that it’s because Monsanto wants to suppress any research into CCD. I think it’s the opposite—–Monsanto wants to encourage MORE research that will show GMO crops are not harmful to bees or butterflies as you would like to believe.

        A good business move by Monsanto—–I don’t like their tactics and the fact that they have gained a near monopoly on GMO agribusiness, but that’s a failing of the free market system and has nothing to do with the biology of GMO..

        GMO crops have NOT been proven to be harmful in the biggest field test ever conducted. I refer to the fact that the population of the US is being exposed to GMO foods at the 70% level and has been for some time. The Europeans have banned GMO so that their exposure is almost nonexistent. Guess what? No measurable difference between the “test” group (us) and the “control” group (them).

      • DaveH

        Lizard Brain Thinker says — “A good business move by Monsanto—–I don’t like their tactics and the fact that they have gained a near monopoly on GMO agribusiness, but that’s a failing of the free market system and has nothing to do with the biology of GMO”.
        What has Monsanto’s Crony Capitalism got to do with Free Markets, LBT?
        Free Markets are, by definition, an absence of Government meddling in the Marketplace. With Free Markets Government would have no way to aid Monsanto in its quest for domination of our choices.
        Note, Folks, how the Liberal Progressives one day will tell you that Free Markets have never existed and then the next day they will tell you that negative events are the result of our Free Markets. Only people who think with their Lizard Brains cannot detect the BS factor in that.

      • DaveH

        LBT says — “GMO crops have NOT been proven to be harmful in the biggest field test ever conducted. I refer to the fact that the population of the US is being exposed to GMO foods at the 70% level and has been for some time”.
        I haven’t heard such weak logic since I was in 8th grade. And this guy has the gall to question Bob’s scientific credentials?

      • Right Brain Thinker

        Dave says, “I haven’t heard such weak logic since I was in 8th grade”. I don’t believe you ever made it out of the sixth grade, Dave, so don’t talk about the “logic” you employed in the eighth grade. (I’ll ask you the same thing Donald Trump would—-”Show us your grade school diploma, Dave!”) And the thought of you “hearing logic” is a rather funny oxymoron—-thanks for the humor.

        DaveH says. “And this guy has the gall to question Bob’s scientific credentials?”
        Yes, Dave, since I am quite sure that mine are better than his, based on my visits to PLD. I also wonder why you don’t let Bob speak for himself if he has any problem with what I said. Bob has proven himself capable of defending himself on many occasions, whether the facts are with him or not. Are you some sort of a shill yourself?

      • DaveH

        If by science, LBT, you mean personal attacks, you certainly are more so than Bob Livingston. But in any kind of real science you are terribly deficient. Which explains all the personal attacks. Like most Liberal Progressives you have nothing to offer in the realm of logic or facts, thus you need to make an effort to chop people down personally in the hopes that they will reach your diminutive mental size.

      • THE TRUTH WILL SET YOU

        RBT

        No difference in “us” and “them”, except the fact that the first GMO corn was sold in America in 1986, including GMO corn syrup in most soft drinks, cereals, candies ( aimed at our youth)etc.

        Since 1986, All neurological diseases have increased 1000% including Autism, ALS, Parkinson’s and Alzheimer’s disease.

        America was number one in education out of the top 30 industrialized nations, and number 4 in longevity.

        We are currently # 26 out of 30 in education, and 42 in the life span department.

        I would consider many factors for this dumbing epidemic, including chem trails, fluoride, and our government controlled education system, but together with GMOs makes for a toxic cocktail for euthanasia.

        Many young children are getting cirrhosis of the liver from the same GMO corn syrup that our government said is good for us, but many doctors know that the body takes these GMOs as a foreign substance and cannot properly digest them.

        Another fact of this hideous crime against Americans is Barrack Hussein Obama.

        Do you really believe this fraud could ever be elected or reelected by intelligent human beings?

        Our country has become a nation of idiots, and you are the perfect example!
        No difference between “us” and “them”?

        No difference between dumb and dumber, except liberal thinking!

      • Right Brain Thinker

        THE TRUTH WILL SET YOU (WHAT???) regales us with what sounds like horsepucky from the world of the circular firing squad wing-nut sites. Give us a source or two so we can see where you are getting youR “information” from and we can talk. A few thoughts or questions inserted in caps and parens amongst your “truths”:

        Since 1986, All neurological diseases have increased 1000% including Autism, ALS, Parkinson’s and Alzheimer’s disease.
        (REALLY? ALL OF THEM? AND EXACTLY 1000%? HORSEPUCKY!)

        America was number one in education out of the top 30 industrialized nations, and number 4 in longevity. We are currently # 26 out of 30 in education, and 42 in the life span department.
        (AND YOU NEED TO SHOW CAUSALITY BEFORE YOU CAN EVEN BRING THIS UP—YOU KNOW, THIS WAS DONE, AND THAT WAS THE RESULT? AND THIS IS THE PROOF THAT THEY’RE TIED TOGETHER?)

        I would consider many factors for this dumbing epidemic, including chem trails, fluoride, and our government controlled education system, but together with GMOs makes for a toxic cocktail for euthanasia.
        (WILD STATEMENT AND NOTHING BUT OPINION—-EVERYONE HAS ONE OF THOSE, AND THE WORST ONES ARE LIKE YOURS, UNSUPPORTED BY FACT OR REASON)

        Many young children are getting cirrhosis of the liver from the same GMO corn syrup that our government said is good for us, but many doctors know that the body takes these GMOs as a foreign substance and cannot properly digest them.
        (I AM DYING TO HEAR YOUR SOURCE FOR THE CIRRHOSIS BIT AND WHO THE “DOCTORS” ARE THAT THINK CORN SYRUP FROM GMO CORN IS DIFFERENT FROM CORN SYRUP FROM NON-GMO CORN—-CORN SYRUP IS SIMPLE ENOUGH STUFF THAT IT’S SAFE TO SAY THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE)

        Another fact of this hideous crime against Americans is Barrack Hussein Obama.
        (WHY DO YOU FOLKS ALWAYS HAVE TO BRING BARRY H. O’BAMA INTO EVERYTHING)?

        Do you really believe this fraud could ever be elected or reelected by intelligent human beings
        (YEP, HAPPENED TWICE, SO THE COUNTRY CAN’T BE THAT DUMB)

        Our country has become a nation of idiots, and you are the perfect example!
        No difference between “us” and “them”? No difference between dumb and dumber, except liberal thinking!
        (HOPE YOU HAD FUN SPOUTING HORSEPUCKY AND CALLING NAMES—-COME UP WITH SOME SOURCES FOR YOUR “TRUTH” AND WE CAN TALK SOME MORE)

        PS TO GO BACK TO 1986, A DATE YOU SEEM TO THINK IS SIGNIFICANT, REMEMBER THAT REAGAN WAS THE PRESIDENT AND HIS TIME IN OFFICE MARKED THE BEGINNING OF THE ASCENDANCY OF THE PLUTOCRACY AND CORPORATE OLIGARCHY. THAT HAS MUCH MORE TO DO WITH THE SORRY STATE OF AFFAIRS TODAY THAN ANY CORN SYRUP.

      • DaveH

        Wow, Lizard Brain, those were some well-thought-out comebacks. It’s a good thing you’re home today to have more time to do your research.

      • Right Brain Thinker

        Actually, Lizard Brain Eater, those “well-thought-out comebacks” took little thought at all beyond trying to type them without typos. I don’t have to do research to rebut you and the other stooges—–my walking around knowledge base is good enough for that.

        And please tell me what the purpose may be of continually following me around and nipping at my heels with inanities. If you’re doing the “troll” thing and trying to rattle me, it should be obvious by now that it doesn’t work. Maybe you’re doing the part of the troll manual that says to “distract and disrupt” the dialogue?

      • Scott Todd

        @Truth- be careful, the Europeans have been voting for Obama types for longer than we have by a wide margin.

    • Right Brain Thinker

      Vigilant says:
      December 17, 2012 at 5:17 am

      Vigilant properly takes Bob to task for stating “But it’s decimating the populations of the pollinators. It has led to colony collapse disorder and a world-wide shortage of honeybees…”

      Perhaps Vigilant has not kept up with the latest research on CCD beyond looking at the topic on a “popular” site like About.com. If he does go deeper into the subject he will find that there is NO evidence that GMO crops cause CCD. The recent research points to a class of insecticides called “neonicotinoids”, and it is not in the least speculative, although Bayer, the German owner of the patents, is attempting to fight the truth with its paid “deniers”.

      Vigilant’s citing of a whole paragraph from the “About” site, “Another suspect in the case is the pollen of genetically modified crops…..”, adds little but confusion to the discussion since it does not present any real science. In fact, it sounds suspiciously like the “fair and balanced” approach we see from those who would want to obfuscate and distract.

      Vigilant should have used his time to pursue the other part of Bob’s statement more deeply for some definitive answers, “….and has begun wiping out Monarch butterfly populations” . Perhaps we shouldn’t fault Bob too much because he lacks a science background, but this statement about Monarchs is egregiously untrue. Bob is probably working off a widely spread story from 1999 (front page of NY Times), about some research in which Monarch caterpillars were fed bt corn pollen and nearly half of them died. This led to much followup research that showed only 3 out of 10,000 Monarch caterpillars died from eating bt corn pollen in field studies and that bt corn was actually GOOD for the Monarchs, in that its use cut down on one of the major causes of Monarch death, the overuse of insecticides

      • http://www.boblivingstonletter.com/ Bob Livingston

        Dear Right Brain Thinker,

        You write: “Perhaps Vigilant has not kept up with the latest research on CCD beyond looking at the topic on a “popular” site like About.com. If he does go deeper into the subject he will find that there is NO evidence that GMO crops cause CCD.” Using only half your brain again? http://naturalsociety.com/monsanto-bee-collapse-buys-bee-research-firm/

        You write: “Perhaps we shouldn’t fault Bob too much because he lacks a science background, but this statement about Monarchs is egregiously untrue. Bob is probably working off a widely spread story from 1999 (front page of NY Times), about some research in which Monarch caterpillars were fed bt corn pollen and nearly half of them died.” No it’s not, and no I’m not. http://www.globalresearch.ca/monsanto-s-roundup-shown-to-be-ravaging-butterfly-population/29684

        Best wishes,
        Bob

      • Right Brain Thinker

        Bob,

        There is an unfortunate time lag on my postings due to “time zone” difficulties (of which you are aware) so you may not yet have seen some of my comments

        I have commented on this citation: “http://naturalsociety.com/monsanto-bee-collapse-buys-bee-research-firm/”. Please read it when it appears.

        You also said, “No it’s not, and no I’m not. http://www.globalresearch.ca/monsanto-s-roundup-shown-to-be-ravaging-butterfly-population/29684“.

        You need to look more closely at this article in the link, Bob. Your article is about GMO foods and has only a very loosely stitched-in connection to glyphosate and Roundup, which is the subject of the link. Yes, the use of Roundup IS killing off milkweed populations, and that is a major food source of Monarch CATERPILLARS in the US, but that is a DESTRUCTION OF HABITAT issue, not GMO. On the other side of that coin, the ADULT MONARCH BUTTERFLIES in Mexico have benefitted from the reduced use of pesticides that GMO bt-engineered crops has allowed. A two-edged sword that is unrelated to GMO.in any direct way

        • http://www.boblivingstonletter.com/ Bob Livingston

          Dear Right Brain Thinker,

          You write: “Your article is about GMO foods and has only a very loosely stitched-in connection to glyphosate and Roundup, which is the subject of the link.” In addition to reading with only half your brain, you must also have had one eye closed. You have done well today and can feel good about yourself when you pick up your check from Monsanto… or is it the FDA?

          Best wishes,
          Bob

      • Right Brain Thinker

        Actually, Bob, the FDA would probably not be too fond of me and certainly would not want to give me any of their money. Although I strongly support the need for such things as the FDA, EPA, and OSHA, I am not one of their biggest defenders because they have not lived up to their mandates and have caved to the special interests too often. I have made that clear in public comments on regulations and messages to my representatives in congress and the White House about proposed laws.

        I don’t think Monsanto would want me on their payroll either. I have spoken out against them in several ways, not because of their being a leader in GMO, but because of the way they have abused us all in their corporate zeal to make a buck. I don’t disagree with that part of your article at all, just the “bad science” and “loose stitching” you used to stir up the troops.

        It saddens me to see that you have chosen to emulate DaveH with comments like “reading with only half your brain, you must also have had one eye closed”. I thought you were better than that. And I “feel good about myself” whenever I am able to help educate and inform those who are uneducated or misinformed in those areas in which I have some knowledge. Thank you for gathering some of them together here for me and giving me the opportunity to throw snowballs into the gates of hell.

      • DaveH

        LBT says — “I “feel good about myself” whenever I am able to help educate and inform those who are uneducated or misinformed in those areas in which I have some knowledge”.
        How sad. You must not feel good about yourself very often then, LBT.

      • Right Brain Thinker

        DaveH says, “You must not feel good about yourself very often then”.

        A really snappy comeback, Dave—-maybe you DID make it into the seventh grade. That’s about the level of “snappiness” you show here because it’s certainly not the level one would expect from a 64 year old man who eats such substantial (and cheap—sort of) breakfasts. I feel good about myself nearly all of the time, Dave, because I live by a code that values rational thought and analysis of facts above mindlessness—-but that’s something you have no hope of understanding, so I’ll let it drop.

      • DaveH

        That’s pretty comical, LBT. Who’s your straight man — Flashman?

      • THE TRUTH WILL SET YOU

        RBT

        I see you have nothing to do today, as in most days of your existence.

        You have all day and all night to look up the facts on your obama computer, living in your section 8 apartments, calling for your drugs on your obama phone, and eating all the free GMO foods we can supply you with.

        In the mean time, please continue to eat your Doritos and drink your grape soda every morning for breakfast as so many of you super intelligent idiots do!

        “A mind is a terrible thing to waste”, unless you’re black, then you’re “entitled”!

      • Right Brain Thinker

        Small things amuse small minds, Dave—-glad you enjoyed it.

        And THE TRUTH WILL SET YOU (WHAT???) reacts predictably—-just like the other truth vampires on the site when one splashes the holy water of truth and logic on their comments. I can see TTWSY(?) screaming and smoking and thrashing as he sinks to the floor. Nice acronym, TTWSY(?), you should have added “FREE” so we could tag an “F” on there—would have opened some doors for “word play”.

        Thanks for the mindless horsepucky, TTWSY(?), a real waste of time to even read, never mind acknowledge, but I wouldn’t want you to feel unwelcome and ignored on the site. Dave behaves that way but I am much more polite than Dave, so I took the time.

        (Speaking of breakfast—–Dave?—-did you eat your half-pound of (sort of) cheap gruel this AM?)

    • boyscout

      Vig, You failed to mention the abundant use of systemic pesticides: inidichloprid (the world’s most widely dispersed agent), dinotefurin, and a whole host of other nicatinoids (lab created toxins) that studies have shown to have major effect on colony collapse. Monocropping (especially with GMOs) and the eradication of adjacent native flora are also major factors. Truth be told, agrabusiness is doing everything it can bassackwards aand the swirl of Monsanto’s reach touches everyone’s back yard.

  • eddie47d

    Can any major Corporation be trusted to produce products that are long term safety tested? Products are rushed to market as quickly as possible and once in the market they are hard to ban even when there are proven side effects. The same with Big Pharmaceutical products. Citizens clamour for these products to save their health and farmers demand better pest control and such. Monsanto and Pfizer were given the green light decades ago and its hard to put the genie back into the bottle. They have us where they want us such as decades ago with beef hormones. Maybe someday when our bodies are totally polluted with these chemical products our species will die out and we’ll have no one to blame but ourselves.

    • Right Brain Thinker

      Eddie talks about “hasty” testing. That is directly related to the debate over CCD in bees and the use of neonicotinoid insecticides. Their use in the US was allowed after the usual “dunk bees in a vat of the stuff and see if they die” type test. Since few died, the neonicotinoids were approved for use. The latest research shows that it’s the exposure over many months to the low concentrations of neonicotinoids in pollen and nectar from treated plants that is the problem. Eddie is right that the “slow” buildups may be the thing that gets us all. Just like the “only” 3% a year buildup of CO2 in the atmosphere just can’t be causing global warming and climate change.

      (And certain folks will still claim that it wasn’t Bush’s and Reagan’s fault)

      • DaveH

        What is the most prevalent Green House Gas, LBT?

      • Right Brain Thinker

        DaveH says: “What is the most prevalent Green House Gas, LBT?”

        We both know the answer to that, Dave, aka Lizard Brain Eater. Let’s talk about one of the more potent greenhouse gasses instead—-methane, which issues from places like melting permafrost, subsea methane clathrates, the rear ends of cattle and termites, and the mindless cowpucky that certain individuals insist upon spewing on PLD.

      • DaveH

        Hmmm. Who else do I know who gives circuitous answers like that? Oh yeah, that other fount of Liberal Progressive “intelligence” — Flashman.
        Polly want a cracker, LBT?
        Answer the question, loser.

      • Right Brain Thinker

        Dave says “circuitous”? No, it was actually rather straight forward, although i CAN understand why you might find it hard to follow, considering your abilities.

        Dave also says “Polly want a cracker, LBT?” That’s not circuitous, Dave, just dumb.

        And “Answer the question, loser”?. Already did, Dave—-don’t expect me to give you reading lessons every time I comment.

    • http://www.facebook.com/benjamin.fox.98892 Benjamin Fox

      eddie teddy 47 ways to be a commie, man won’t decide that and we will be here for at least another 1007 years as humans, not sure where you will end up for eternity but, every person can make up their own mind as to that, Merry Christmas and have a Happy New Year:

      • eddie47d

        So sly Fox Benjamin gives a high five to Monsanto and Dow .That’s something you’ll have to live with!

    • Gary L

      i’d say NO, we can’t trust the big corporations any more than we can trust the US government (USDA). None of them are trustworthy. All are corrupt.

  • Deb

    This is great and would be more successful to switch IF all the non GMO weren’t so expensive to buy for the average family of these days. :(

    • Karolyn

      That’s how big Agra is getting to us.

    • DaveH

      Deb,
      Right now I’m eating a breakfast of whole grain oats and wheat which I get from the health food store and cook like rice. I eat about a half-pound per breakfast at a cost of about $1.25 a pound. So, I spend 75 cents for my breakfast each morning. Can’t get much cheaper than that.

      • Right Brain Thinker

        It’s raining here and kind of dreary so I think I may do a turnabout and “nip” at Dave’s heels for a while—-certainly until he finds the courage to admit that he lied to us and abused our trust in misusing the Heritage data about “economically free” countries (see several other references to that in the thread)—-Dave is still hiding from me on that one.

        I knew Dave was a glutton for spouting inanities, but not that he also loaded up so much at breakfast. A half-pound? That’s 1/2 of a box of Cheerios or Total. Maybe 700 or 800 calories total and 7 or 8 “servings”. WOW—Dave apparently can pack it away!

        And “Can’t get much cheaper than that”? Sure can, Dave, if you divide $1.25 by two and come up with 62-1/2 cents, which is a lot less than 75 cents. But I guess that the “truth” of math is just another truth you deny.

      • DaveH

        There are many factors involved in the cost of that breakfast, ignoramus, besides just the cost of the grain. Heating it, and transportation costs to get to the store and back, for instance.
        The 75 cents was just an estimate.
        But leave it to a troll like you to try to make something out of it.

      • DaveH

        LBT says — “he lied to us”.
        Feel free to attempt to back up that lying slander, LBT.

      • Right Brain Thinker

        DaveH says, “But leave it to a troll like you to try to make something out of it”. You’re the troll, Dave, as you admitted to us in the “Manual for Trolls” that you posted way back when. You described yourself perfectly—–do you want me to repost it? I copied it out and put it in it’s own little Word file just for that reason.

        DaveH also says. “There are many factors involved in the cost of that breakfast, ignoramus, besides just the cost of the grain. Heating it, and transportation costs to get to the store and back, for instance. The 75 cents was just an estimate”.

        I do hate to make anyone squirm, Dave, but you have put yourself in a category that deserves to squirm, so let me remind you of of what you said—-exactly:

        “I eat about a half-pound per breakfast at a cost of about $1.25 a pound. So, I spend 75 cents for my breakfast each morning. Can’t get much cheaper than that”.

        Maybe I shouldn’t get on your case for your ongoing and ever present imprecision of thought and expression—-you seem to be unable to control it—-but it seemed pretty clear to me that you were NOT talking about factoring in cooking and going to the store when you said “about”. That’s just squirming anyway, since I didn’t dispute any of that and your “estimate” is fine by me.. My main points were:

        1) You eat too much of the stuff (or you exaggerate)
        2) You have lousy math skills

        And you call me an “ignoramus”? Coming from you, that is a badge of honor and source of amusement, just as I’m sure it is for the other “thinkers” on this site when you call them names. We would all likely be rather insulted if other folks on the site said “You sound just like Dave” or “That’s exactly what Dave said”.

        PS RE: DaveH says: December 17, 2012 at 2:06 pm

        LBT says — “he lied to us”.
        Feel free to attempt to back up that lying slander, LBT.

        I’VE POSTED YOUR COMMENT AND MY RESPONSE ELSEWHERE ON THE THREAD

      • DaveH

        Lizard Brain says — “Dave, as you admitted to us in the “Manual for Trolls” that you posted way back when. You described yourself perfectly—–do you want me to repost it?”.
        I posted no such thing, Lizard Brain. Yes, please link us to my comment where you claim I did.
        You won’t though, will you? Instead, at best, you’ll make something up and post it without any such link to prove your veracity. But the regular readers know you have no credibility, Lizard Brain.

      • DaveH

        Why would that make me squirm, Lizard Brain? I didn’t say how I arrived at that 75 cent figure, did I? Keep clutching for straws, LBT. Maybe someday you’ll catch some.

      • DaveH

        Lizard Brain says — “I’VE POSTED YOUR COMMENT AND MY RESPONSE ELSEWHERE ON THE THREAD”.
        Sure, LBT, we believe you. NOT. You really don’t think the readers are going to look through all your garbage comments to find something you didn’t really do?
        Post a link to that comment, LBT. If you can’t figure out how to do that, I would be glad to tutor you.
        Of course you won’t, instead coming back with some circuitous nonsense which is your usual comment.

      • Right Brain Thinker

        RBT said, “Dave, as you admitted to us in the “Manual for Trolls” that you posted way back when. You described yourself perfectly—–do you want me to repost it?”.
        Dave says, “I posted no such thing, Lizard Brain. Yes, please link us to my comment where you claim I did”.

        Technically, Dave is correct. When I went back and copied the posting, I found out it was from JeffH, who appears to be one of DaveH’s multiple personalities—-sorry for the mistake, Dave, but it doesn’t matter which one of you was “speaking”. The “Manual” describes you all perfectly. Strange thing, though, I’ve tried to post it twice today and the comment won’t “take”—I’ll keep trying.

        DaveH also says”Why would that make me squirm, Lizard Brain? I didn’t say how I arrived at that 75 cent figure, did I? Keep clutching for straws, LBT. Maybe someday you’ll catch some”.
        Dave is still squirming—-thanks fro proving my point, Dave.

        DAve is again squirming and trying to obfuscate and deflect when he says, “Lizard Brain says — “I’VE POSTED YOUR COMMENT AND MY RESPONSE ELSEWHERE ON THE THREAD”.
        Sure, LBT, we believe you. NOT. You really don’t think the readers are going to look through all your garbage comments to find something you didn’t really do?
        Post a link to that comment, LBT. If you can’t figure out how to do that, I would be glad to tutor you.
        Of course you won’t, instead coming back with some circuitous nonsense which is your usual comment”.

        OK, Dave—-my next move will be to post it yet again right below this, although I do think you did find it. I recall you squirming mightily over Zimbabwe and Cuba. Haven’t gotten around to dealing with that, but rest assured, I will. The truth is coming to get you, Dave—-HA HA HA—-be afraid!

      • Right Brain Thinker

        Here it is again, Dave—-keep denying it exists and maybe it’ll end up in half a dozen place in the thread—-should be easy for all to find then.

        Right Brain Thinker says:
        December 17, 2012 at 4:09 pm

        Don’t recall quite calling you a liar, Dave, although that’s a good descriptor for someone who plays as fast and loose with the truth as you do. I went back to one of the other threads and copied some of it out for you—–can’t believe you missed the postings—-I put it in several places on several threads—-since you follow me around and nip at my heels like an obsessed (and not too smart) puppy, I can only conclude you missed it because you DIDN’T WANT to see it. Here it is—rebut my rebuttal. (PS It’s only “slander” if it’s not true)

        I’LL ask you yet again, DAVE—WHAT ABOUT MY COMMENT RE:THE DATA YOU MISUSED FROM THE HERITAGE INSTITUTE ON “ECONOMICALLY FREE” COUNTRIES AND UNEMPLOYMENT? ARE YOU EVER GOING TO ANSWER MY ACCUSATIONS OF DISHONESTY ON YOUR PART?

        Let me remind you of your claim, Dave. YOU don’t get to determine what a “legitimate” rebuttal is, as much as you would like to do so. “Lucky for you, RBT, because I haven’t seen a legitimate rebuttal to any of my claims by you Liberal Progressives yet”. So, show us your stuff, Dave—-rebut my rebuttal.

        Right Brain Thinker says:
        December 14, 2012 at 6:29 pm

        Right Brain Thinker says:
        December 12, 2012 at 10:26 am

        This comment refers back to a post DaveH made on 12/11 at 11:55 AM on another thread.

        DaveH’s earlier posting said:

        “It’s instructive to look at the five countries which are the most Economically Free (Smallest Governments), as ranked by Heritage Foundation, and their Unemployment Rates:
        1) Hong Kong — 3.3%
        2) Singapore — 1.9%
        3) Australia — 5.2%
        4) New Zealand — 6.8%
        5) Switzerland — 3.1%

        and some countries which are the least Economically Free (Biggest Governments), and their Unemployment rates:

        171) Iran — 11.5%
        173) Burma — 4.9%
        174) Venezuela — 8.3%
        176) Libya — 13%
        178) Zimbabwe — 70%”

        And that’s it. Dave does not give us any conclusions, leaving us to wonder why this posting is important..

        DaveH does tell us that it will be “instructive” to look at a listing of countries that are the most and least “economically free” and their unemployment rates. Note that DaveH has used “instructive” rather than “informative”, which implies that he is trying to “teach” us something rather than provide us with information that we can analyze for ourselves, i.e., that Dave sees some “truth” in these figures that we all should just accept on his say-so.

        The first thing I asked myself when seeing DaveH’s “data” was “Where are the countries ranked #’s 172, 175, 177, and 179?”, and “Why has DaveH given us the ‘top five’ in order but reached up NINE places from the bottom to give us five of the worst”?

        A look at the raw data shows that the #172 Democratic Republic of the Congo and #175 Eritrea have no unemployment statistics available. So DaveH skipped them. OK, then why did he skip #177 CUBA and #179 NORTH KOREA? Surely their stats are more significant than those of Burma and Zimbabwe (the latter of which is so far out of whack that it should have never been used by Dave in the first place—I guess he couldn’t resist that 70%)

        Guess what?, Cuba has an unemployment rate of 1.6% and North Korea has an “official” rate of 0.0% (it would likely be higher if they counted all the folks in prison camps—-anyone who is not in jail in NK apparently has a job).

        If Dave HAD dropped Zimbabwe as he should have, and used the real “bottom five” for which data were available, he would have come up with an average unemployment rate of 5.6%, not that far above the average rate of 4.1% for the “top five” (and Libya skewed the bottom five more than a bit).

        Dave could also have told everyone that the range of “scores” for the top five was 81 to 90, that Canada ranked #6 with a score of 80, and that the U.S. ranked #10 with a score of 76. Not too shabby in a list of 179 countries, especially when the rather biased Heritage folks are doing the math..

        Am I accusing DaveH of doing a deliberately sloppy job of cherrypicking data and using that data to “instruct” us about a preconceived bias? Yep, I sure am. And that’s not even bringing up Dave’s misuse of the terms “economically free” and “big and small government” in this context. He is misleading you there also.

        Nor will I bring up GINI and income inequality numbers at this time. Also not the % of GDP devoted to government spending and the tax burden as a % of GDP. Dave should be embarrassed enough that he has been caught with his pants down this much—-we can see enough of the ugly warts on the half of his behind that serves him as a “brain without looking for more..

        I, unlike Dave, am a gentleman, and therefore won’t pile on. (Unless someone really wants to see the withheld data—it makes Dave look even worse).

        HERE YOU GO, DAVE—–YOU DON’T EVEN HAVE TO GO LOOK FOR IT NOW—-i’M NOW EAGERLY WAITING FOR YOUR REBUTTAL OF MY REBUTTAL OF YOUR “CLAIM”—-GO FOR IT!!!!

      • http://none Jude

        I do too Dave, don’t like all the garbage in processed food, the presitives, articial flavoring and what the hormones they give cattle and other animals. Leave our food alone, we used to eat anything we liked, no one got ill unless it was their own neglect and carelessness.Good grief this has got to harm the body, look how long you can keep bread, meats,eggs and milk unreal, and people absorb this in their bodies and brain. Is it any wonder that people are getting physically and mentally ill?

    • Evan

      Spend the extra money on Non-GMO and organic foods. Cut spending elsewhere. It can be done. Your health is worth it.

  • http://www.acalculatedresponse.com Michael Murray

    The single greatest threat is the monoculture itself. We do not have the crop diversity we once did, and much of what we have does not reproduce itself. There are many historical examples of what happens when “all the eggs are in one basket”. The Irish potato famine comes to mind.
    GMO and chemicals can be, and generally are a good thing. We have been genetically modifying plants and animals for thousands of years, as well as using chemicals. It was called selective breeding and manure.

    Robert asks “WHY are subsidies given to big agriculture? They are making tons of money.”

    Of course the answer is because giving people free stuff buys votes.
    It works just as well for corporations as it does for individuals.
    We have “boatloads of Federal money” to give away don’t we?

    • John

      The probability is low of an “Irish potato famine” event. Though corn wheat and soybeans are the predominant crops, most farmers will grow three or more cultivars of each crop on their farm, all with different genetic characteristcs. This genetic diversity makes it very difficult for any specific crop to be completely wiped out.

  • Karolyn

    Well, finally something many liberals and conservatives can agree on! Subscribe to ANH and support the work being done to preserve our health freedom! here’s a link to their petition site.
    http://www.anh-usa.org/main-menu/take-action/

    • eddie47d

      Thanks Karolyn, I signed 9 of those petitions such as Interstate transport of unpasteurized milk,parental permission for vaccinations,the misuse of Roundup and another on GMO crops. Good place to “put your money where your mouth is” and stand behind what you believe in.

  • http://www.chandostransportsolutions.com GraemeB

    Read a prophecy recently where GMO’s were growing in the fields as far as the eye could see, but there were no ears of corn, wheat etc. I believe that when they have roundup resistant crops (roundup being a varient of agent orange), it permeates the food system and therefore our bodies. You just have to see the utter disaster created by this deadly chemical to India and the poor farmer who refuses to go along with the madness, being wiped out by overspray.
    Then you have farmers being sued by Monsanto where natural cross polination occurs. Pure madness. Then we have pork being fed antibiotics and cows injected with hormones to increase milk output by 45%. All for profits and then we give these jerks corporate welfare.!! All this whilst we debate whether we should continue giving “tax welfare” to the top 2%. Are we totally nuts or what?

    • DaveH

      “Tax Welfare”?
      Take off your envy-green glasses, Graeme. Taking LESS of somebody’s money is NOT welfare.
      Already the “rich” pay many times more than their “Fair” share, while nearly half of the population pays nothing but at the same time get to vote in how to spend Other Peoples’ Money.
      It’s just plain Theft, no matter how you Liberal Progressives try to paint it otherwise:
      http://www.ntu.org/tax-basics/who-pays-income-taxes.html

      • Right Brain Thinker

        DaveH appears bright and early with his usual foolishness. I will reply directly to what he says here but first want to remind him of something he said on another thread.

        Dave said, “Lucky for you, RBT, because I haven’t seen a legitimate rebuttal to any of my claims by you Liberal Progressives yet”

        I have been chasing Dave for days now on this—-he has been hiding from me and refusing to answer. I’LL ASK YOU YET AGAIN, DAVE—WHAT ABOUT MY COMMENT RE:THE DATA YOU MISUSED FROM THE HERITAGE INSTITUTE ON “ECONOMICALLY FREE” COUNTRIES AND UNEMPLOYMENT? ARE YOU EVER GOING TO ANSWER MY ACCUSATIONS OF DISHONESTY ON YOUR PART?

        Let me remind you of your claim, Dave. YOU don’t get to determine what a “legitimate” rebuttal is, as much as you would like to do so. . So, show us your stuff, Dave—-rebut my rebuttal.

      • Right Brain Thinker

        DaveH says the same old-same old, once again making it necessary to remind him of the truth. He says, “Already the “rich” pay many times more than their “Fair” share, while nearly half of the population pays nothing but at the same time get to vote in how to spend Other Peoples’ Money. It’s just plain Theft, no matter how you Liberal Progressives try to paint it otherwise”. Sorry , Dave, but no matter how many times you repeat it, it will never be true, just as citing a link to some wing-nut web-site hardly constitutes proof.

        Here’s some “truth” for you to chew on:

        “It is widely believed that taxes are highly progressive and, furthermore, that the top several percent of income earners pay most of the taxes received by the federal government. Both ideas are wrong because they focus on official, rather than “effective” tax rates and ignore payroll taxes, which are mostly paid by those with incomes below $100,000 per year.

        But what matters in terms of a power analysis is what percentage of their income people at different income levels pay to all levels of government (federal, state, and local) in taxes. If the less-well-off majority is somehow able to wield power, we would expect that the high earners would pay a bigger percentage of their income in taxes, because the majority figures the well-to-do would still have plenty left after taxes to make new investments and lead the good life. If the high earners have the most power, we’d expect them to pay about the same as everybody else, or less.

        Citizens for Tax Justice, a research group that’s been studying tax issues from its offices in Washington since 1979, provides the information we need. When all taxes (not just income taxes) are taken into account, the lowest 20% of earners (who average about $12,400 per year), paid 16.0% of their income to taxes in 2009; and the next 20% (about $25,000/year), paid 20.5% in taxes. So if we only examine these first two steps, the tax system looks like it is going to be progressive.

        And it keeps looking progressive as we move further up the ladder: the middle 20% (about $33,400/year) give 25.3% of their income to various forms of taxation, and the next 20% (about $66,000/year) pay 28.5%. So taxes are progressive for the bottom 80%. But if we break the top 20% down into smaller chunks, we find that progressivity starts to slow down, then it stops, and then it slips backwards for the top 1%.

        Specifically, the next 10% (about $100,000/year) pay 30.2% of their income as taxes; the next 5% ($141,000/year) dole out 31.2% of their earnings for taxes; and the next 4% ($245,000/year) pay 31.6% to taxes. You’ll note that the progressivity is slowing down. As for the top 1% — those who take in $1.3 million per year on average — they pay 30.8% of their income to taxes, which is a little less than what the 9% just below them pay, and only a tiny bit more than what the segment between the 80th and 90th percentile pays.

        We also can look at this information on income and taxes in another way by asking what percentage of all taxes various income levels pay. (This is not the same as the previous question, which asked what percentage of their incomes went to taxes for people at various income levels.) The top 20% receives 59.1% of all income and pays 64.3% of all the taxes, so they aren’t carrying a huge extra burden. At the other end, the bottom 20%, which receives 3.5% of all income, pays 1.9% of all taxes”.

        Give it up, Dave—-anyone with half a brain ignores you anyway and you’re just taking up space on the thread that could be used for positive contributions..

      • Deerinwater

        David say ;”Already the “rich” pay many times more than their “Fair” share, ”

        Like Bob Livingston has asked in the past ~ “what is a fair share?”

        David your argument seems to be based on not “share” but an amount.

        The most basic of human needs requires requires somewhere around $14,000.00 per year. ~ This person has earned the right to exist and breathe and little more and more likely to being subsidizes by family, friends, church or the government social safety net that has been installed. My experience with such individuals is that it takes all four contributors to head off a life of total destitute for such a person.

        For an American worker that makes $19,000.00 per year and pays 18% income tax has paid his /her fair share in my mind. Where as a Mitt Romney has paid 14% on $700,000.00 has not.

        That in the past you have framed the argument that any tax is a form of stealing and any amount too much then turn around and defend the most able to pay at the expense of those let able to pay fails to ring clear.

        Today the most wealthy among us generate much of their income from Capital Gains and not labor while Capital Gains tax is at an all time low. This inequity prevents the wealthy from having any incentive to invest venture capitalistic endeavors by rather is vest rather is lobbyist activities to insure and hedge future bets. ~ This causes money to flow only in tight little circles and notions for any “trickle down” is indeed just that ~ but a trickle.

        The laboring class of Americans are all but locked out of any hopes to aspire as they enter the job market where the “Fix is In” that favor the affluent. It’s worst today then anytime since 1929.

      • DaveH

        More of the mostly personal attacking comments from RBT.
        When he does say something that isn’t a personal attack, it’s the typical Liberal Progressive tripe like this one — “But what matters in terms of a power analysis is what percentage of their income people at different income levels pay to all levels of government (federal, state, and local) in taxes”.
        No, that is what matters only to a Socialist Liberal Progressive who thinks that equal assets are a moral issue. They have that kind of “equality” in Cuba and North Korea — equally poor that is.
        Interesting that the author uses the phrase “power analysis” given that that phrase pretty much sums up Liberal Progressivism — Power and Force.
        What “matters” is that some people should not be Forced to pay more for the their products (in this case Big Government) than other people have to pay for the same products. Anything other than that is just plain Theft no matter how the Liberal Progressives try to emotionally paint it otherwise.
        And it is a fact that in 2009 the top 1% of wage earners paid 36.73% of the Income Taxes. It is also a fact that Income Taxes account for 70% of Federal Government revenues if we exclude payroll taxes which are supposed to directly support the workers when they retire.
        Also, the rich, who the Liberal Progressives love to Envy, put a lion’s share of their money back into capital machinery and other capital goods that result in more productivity, higher paying jobs, and cheaper products for the rest of us, while the Government merely consumes that wealth as fast as they can take it.
        Those who don’t understand the dynamics of Capital Investment and the results of its absence should read this:
        http://mises.org/daily/5277/When-Capital-Is-Nowhere-in-View

        The Propagandists promote their Class Envy for one main reason — The Leaders are living fat and happy on our money and our servitude, and they will do anything to continue that glorious lifestyle.

      • DaveH

        Deer says — “Today the most wealthy among us generate much of their income from Capital Gains and not labor while Capital Gains tax is at an all time low. This inequity prevents the wealthy from having any incentive to invest venture capitalistic endeavors by rather is vest rather is lobbyist activities to insure and hedge future bets”.
        Clearly, Deer, you have no idea where “Capital Gains” come from. They come from investments which promote growth of capital ventures — that is investment in Capital Goods and Plants and other forms of Business activity.
        Those who have as weak a grasp of Capitalism as Deer has should read this:
        http://mises.org/daily/6262/Capitalism

        • Deerinwater

          No David , It is you that is lacking in real world experience and hold academic illusions in this twisted game of labels and illusions. You allow “words” to interfere with knowledge.

          Politicians love people like yourself that deem themselves bright about such matters.

          I am sorry, ~ but it is true ~ I wish that it could be different and not so, for your sake and mine.

          They spend more money on Lobbyist then ever in history to cast illusions to be consumed by the masses that like to consider themselves informed.

          The “product” is illusions, ~ to hide the inequity.

          I never met a wealthy man that was stupid.

      • DaveH

        Lizard Brain says — “Give it up, Dave—-anyone with half a brain ignores you anyway and you’re just taking up space on the thread that could be used for positive contributions”.
        LBT sure does his best to silence my voice with his adolescent techniques. One might think that he must be a shill. Who else would be so disrespectful and persistent in trying to silence my voice?
        The truth is, LBT, that you are equating “lust for other peoples’ money” with “Brains” which you have little of.
        Read this folks, and see if it doesn’t describe Liberal Progressives pretty darn well (Feed me, Clothe me, Shelter me, Give me Free Healthcare, Wah! Wah! Wah!):
        http://www.instantbrainstorm.com/lizard_brain.html

      • DaveH

        Another oddity is that RBT is at one time trying to convince you that the Crony Capitalist Monsanto isn’t harming you, then at another time he’s whining about the rich not paying their fair share. What do these have in common? Big Government of course. More reason to suspect that RBT is yet another Big Government shill.
        Whatever they’re paying him, he isn’t worth it. But since they’re probably paying him with our money, why should they care?

      • Right Brain Thinker

        DaveH is thrashing about like a speared fish. Deer and I have apparently wounded him badly with our “spears of truth” and he has responded with his usual mindless horsepucky and name-calling. Has anyone else noticed that whenever Dave gives more than his usual “three sentence and a useless link” replies, he tends to shoot himself in the foot and display his ignorance to the world?

        I have been chasing Dave for days now on this—-he has been hiding from me and refusing to answer, in spite of being reminded of the need to do so several times on several threads and again today. I’LL ASK YOU YET AGAIN, DAVE—WHAT ABOUT MY COMMENT RE:THE DATA YOU MISUSED FROM THE HERITAGE INSTITUTE ON “ECONOMICALLY FREE” COUNTRIES AND UNEMPLOYMENT? ARE YOU EVER GOING TO ANSWER MY ACCUSATIONS OF DISHONESTY ON YOUR PART?

        Dave said, “Lucky for you, RBT, because I haven’t seen a legitimate rebuttal to any of my claims by you Liberal Progressives yet” STILL WAITING, DAVE—WHY ARE YOU HIDING? DON’T YOU WANT TO ADMIT TO ALL OF US THAT YOU ABUSED EVERYONE’S TRUST WITH THAT POSTING?

      • DaveH

        Deer says — “No David , It is you that is lacking in real world experience and hold academic illusions in this twisted game of labels and illusions”.
        Oh? Because you say so, Deer? And whose “real world” is that, Deer? I regularly shine the light on your poor grammar and poor logic. That’s my “real world”.

        • Deerinwater

          Oh? you have turned into the grammar police now? Well excuse me David! Let us not allow a Being Verb in the First Person Singular interfere with the message.

          At least I understand the difference between productive work and some GD shell game ~ and when someone is attempting to pi$$ down my collar and telling me that it’s raining.

          You are just the kind of person that the Mitt Romney’s of the world are looking for. ~ if you had two cents to rub together.

          There was a time in America that a man could depend on the integrity of the Investment “industry” and markets. David, ~ that time has now passed.

          Today, for anyone to win, requires losers. These is no more Venture Capitalistic system in place. Private investment firm of today have a serious confidence problem and with people the likes of Mitt Romney seeing Gold in them Hills, only verifies the fact.

          Are far as I’m concerned , you can chew on your gold bars like they were a Snicker bar and crap gold bricks for all the good it will do you.

          You are not a business man David , ~ you have shown to be little more than a mouth piece attempting to sell an unproven produce contrive by men with hands as soft as a babies bottom that don’t have a clue about production except on paper in some hypothetical world that does not exist.

      • DaveH

        Lizard Brain says — “I’LL ASK YOU YET AGAIN, DAVE—WHAT ABOUT MY COMMENT RE:THE DATA YOU MISUSED FROM THE HERITAGE INSTITUTE ON “ECONOMICALLY FREE” COUNTRIES AND UNEMPLOYMENT?”.
        I have no idea what you’re ranting about, Lizard Brain. Please post a link to the particular comment in which you claim to have bested me, so that I may show the readers how truly ignorant you are.
        It’s really easy to post a link to a comment, LBT, even for a lowlife Liberal Progressive who thinks with his Lizard Brain.

      • Right Brain Thinker

        Don’t recall quite calling you a liar, Dave, although that’s a good descriptor for someone who plays as fast and loose with the truth as you do. I went back to one of the other threads and copied some of it out for you—–can’t believe you missed the postings—-I put it in several places on several threads—-since you follow me around and nip at my heels like an obsessed (and not too smart) puppy, I can only conclude you missed it because you DIDN’T WANT to see it. Here it is—rebut my rebuttal. (PS It’s only “slander” if it’s not true)

        I’LL ask you yet again, DAVE—WHAT ABOUT MY COMMENT RE:THE DATA YOU MISUSED FROM THE HERITAGE INSTITUTE ON “ECONOMICALLY FREE” COUNTRIES AND UNEMPLOYMENT? ARE YOU EVER GOING TO ANSWER MY ACCUSATIONS OF DISHONESTY ON YOUR PART?

        Let me remind you of your claim, Dave. YOU don’t get to determine what a “legitimate” rebuttal is, as much as you would like to do so. “Lucky for you, RBT, because I haven’t seen a legitimate rebuttal to any of my claims by you Liberal Progressives yet”. So, show us your stuff, Dave—-rebut my rebuttal.

        Right Brain Thinker says:
        December 14, 2012 at 6:29 pm

        Right Brain Thinker says:
        December 12, 2012 at 10:26 am

        This comment refers back to a post DaveH made on 12/11 at 11:55 AM on another thread.

        DaveH’s earlier posting said:

        “It’s instructive to look at the five countries which are the most Economically Free (Smallest Governments), as ranked by Heritage Foundation, and their Unemployment Rates:
        1) Hong Kong — 3.3%
        2) Singapore — 1.9%
        3) Australia — 5.2%
        4) New Zealand — 6.8%
        5) Switzerland — 3.1%

        and some countries which are the least Economically Free (Biggest Governments), and their Unemployment rates:

        171) Iran — 11.5%
        173) Burma — 4.9%
        174) Venezuela — 8.3%
        176) Libya — 13%
        178) Zimbabwe — 70%”

        And that’s it. Dave does not give us any conclusions, leaving us to wonder why this posting is important..

        DaveH does tell us that it will be “instructive” to look at a listing of countries that are the most and least “economically free” and their unemployment rates. Note that DaveH has used “instructive” rather than “informative”, which implies that he is trying to “teach” us something rather than provide us with information that we can analyze for ourselves, i.e., that Dave sees some “truth” in these figures that we all should just accept on his say-so.

        The first thing I asked myself when seeing DaveH’s “data” was “Where are the countries ranked #’s 172, 175, 177, and 179?”, and “Why has DaveH given us the ‘top five’ in order but reached up NINE places from the bottom to give us five of the worst”?

        A look at the raw data shows that the #172 Democratic Republic of the Congo and #175 Eritrea have no unemployment statistics available. So DaveH skipped them. OK, then why did he skip #177 CUBA and #179 NORTH KOREA? Surely their stats are more significant than those of Burma and Zimbabwe (the latter of which is so far out of whack that it should have never been used by Dave in the first place—I guess he couldn’t resist that 70%)

        Guess what?, Cuba has an unemployment rate of 1.6% and North Korea has an “official” rate of 0.0% (it would likely be higher if they counted all the folks in prison camps—-anyone who is not in jail in NK apparently has a job).

        If Dave HAD dropped Zimbabwe as he should have, and used the real “bottom five” for which data were available, he would have come up with an average unemployment rate of 5.6%, not that far above the average rate of 4.1% for the “top five” (and Libya skewed the bottom five more than a bit).

        Dave could also have told everyone that the range of “scores” for the top five was 81 to 90, that Canada ranked #6 with a score of 80, and that the U.S. ranked #10 with a score of 76. Not too shabby in a list of 179 countries, especially when the rather biased Heritage folks are doing the math..

        Am I accusing DaveH of doing a deliberately sloppy job of cherrypicking data and using that data to “instruct” us about a preconceived bias? Yep, I sure am. And that’s not even bringing up Dave’s misuse of the terms “economically free” and “big and small government” in this context. He is misleading you there also.

        Nor will I bring up GINI and income inequality numbers at this time. Also not the % of GDP devoted to government spending and the tax burden as a % of GDP. Dave should be embarrassed enough that he has been caught with his pants down this much—-we can see enough of the ugly warts on the half of his behind that serves him as a “brain without looking for more..

        I, unlike Dave, am a gentleman, and therefore won’t pile on. (Unless someone really wants to see the withheld data—it makes Dave look even worse).

        HERE YOU GO, DAVE—–YOU DON’T EVEN HAVE TO GO LOOK FOR IT NOW—-i’M NOW EAGERLY WAITING FOR YOUR REBUTTAL OF MY REBUTTAL OF YOUR “CLAIM”—-GO FOR IT!!!!

      • Right Brain Thinker

        Referring back to Deerinwater says December 17, 2012 at 4:19 pm

        Well put, Deer. I do love righteous commentary. I don’t say righteous anger or even righteous indignation, because DaveH is worth getting that worked up over, especially at my age of 72. Would righteous exasperation or righteous boredom fit better?

        At any rate, you have livened up the thread with some real truths. You show a far better understanding of what’s going on in this country than Dave or his Mises friends do. Keep it up.

        PS I have less trouble following your grammar and logic than Dave’s.

      • DaveH

        No, I’m not the Grammar Police, Deer. It’s just that sometimes after slogging through your incoherent sentences, I get a little crabby.

        • Deerinwater

          As the “talking filibuster” rules draws near a reality, your demure is of less concern then your cognizance skills David. I hold for your New Year, great aspirations in both.

          But this text book understanding of business matters needs some real life experience behind it David if you really insist on scoffing my viewpoint.

          Not that I’m all that good at business, ~ but at least I’m paying taxes, putting food on the table for 5 families without working for the government, stealing, mooching or kissing a rich man a##ets and I have been since 78″. I come and go as I please, I am not in debit today like most Americans, much less American business and American government, so clearly I must be doing something right without this narrow understanding of money matters that you seem to embrace and dead set on selling to anyone that will listen to you.

          Let me assure you, it has not been the life I would have chose for myself, as all I ever wanted to do was live in the Yukon, fly planes and be a welder on the pipeline. While Uncle Sam had different plans, plans much grander then mine. I have simply out worked and out lived my enemies while today I’m looking forward to making more new ones and proud to oblige you as every turn.

          Worthy enemies are hard to come by.

        • Deerinwater

          Two more bite the dust! MANAGERS! not worker bee’s but managers!

          http://dealbook.nytimes.com/2012/12/17/2-former-hedge-fund-managers-found-guilty-in-insider-trading-case/

          And you want to put your money in these peoples hands?

          Another 10 years of this get tough on white collar scum ~ and maybe we will recover.

      • DaveH

        Lizard Brain says — “OK, then why did he skip #177 CUBA and #179 NORTH KOREA?”.
        Duh, if you had any brains at all then you would know that Communist Countries don’t typically have unemployment. That’s why they’re Communist — equality; you know equally poor. I’m surprised that Cuba would even say it had a 1.6% unemployment rate. But Cuba’s workers make 1/6 of the annual wages that our workers make. So what good is “equality”? I don’t think North Korea even reports their average wages, they’re so low. Does that make you feel more warm and fuzzy that I exposed that information, LBT? How does that help your case?

        • Deerinwater

          Somebody says; ” . But Cuba’s workers make 1/6 of the annual wages that our workers make. ”

          Well where it’s 1/6 or 1/8th or half ~ you might consider they don’t have the same basic expenses that we have, making their needs less.

          In some ways it’s like belonging to a nudist colony. ~ no cloths makes everyone more equal ( more or less), a social status has been removed.

          While I’m not encouraging either, I’m just looking at the social dynamics that would come into play and not to ignore the more adventurist side, with “Black markets” and the lucrativeness opportunities that would afford anyone darning enough to step up to the plate.

          For an old pirate such as I, ~ I could do well in such an environment. I feel quite certain that many people do.

          The people of Cuba do want their freedom as people always want what they do not have.

          As a youth I dreamed of owning a car, ~ 50 years later, a flying carpet would be a more desirable wish. No gas, no engine failures, no insurance, no traffic, no parking problems. Spot remover my biggest concern.

      • DaveH

        For those people who would like to see for themselves on the income issue:
        http://siteresources.worldbank.org/DATASTATISTICS/Resources/GNIPC.pdf

      • DaveH

        Lizard Brain says — “If Dave HAD dropped Zimbabwe as he should have, and used the real “bottom five” for which data were available, he would have come up with an average unemployment rate of 5.6%”.
        Drop Zimbabwe? Why, because it allows you to state your lie, LBT? Is that part of your Liberal Progressive “Scientific” method, LBT — to drop figures which don’t make your point valid? You are so disingenuous as to be down right comical, LBT.

      • DaveH

        Here’s an interesting fact.
        According to the World Bank, on a purchasing power parity basis, the top five Economically Freest countries, have an average Gross National Income per Capita of about $43,548.
        The bottom five, the least Economically Free, have an average Gross National Income per Capita of less than $4000.
        Try to equivocate that one, Lizard Brain.

      • DaveH

        Deer says — “so clearly I must be doing something right without this narrow understanding of money matters that you seem to embrace”.
        Narrow? Because you can’t come up with logical rebuts, Deer? That’s an interesting point of view.
        Congratulations, Deer. So maybe you can teach your fellow Liberal Progressives how to earn their own livings so they don’t need to ride on the backs of unwilling carriers?

        • Deerinwater

          I would be most glad to tell anyone David.

          Learn to see and understand what an opportunity is.

          Decide the direction you want to go and work to that end with the understanding that the more you want, the more you will have to work and the more time it will take. If your goals are too narrow you will miss many of the opportunities along the way with tunnel vision.

          Control your “wants” and work toward your needs ( like I need a new mattress, I need to control unnecessary spending. )

          And don’t borrow money! (Big ticket items like housing an exception but live well below your means) Pay cash for your cars and drive sound older cars.

          Don’t judge yourself by looking at someone else. A mans true worthy can not be seen with the eye.

          Stop investing in trinkets and bad relationships that offer little reward. (pretty women with bad temperament, passion cars, jewelry, etc)

          Be Honest with yourself ,for only then can you be honest with others.

          Keep a short list of your daily goals, things that are possible to achieve.

          Honor your friendships daily and be gracious to people that can offer you nothing.

      • Mario

        Geee, Lizard Brain, you almost had me…untill you posted that mile long comment trying to explain why Dave is an impostor who’s only purpose is to “cherry pick” datas to fit his ideeas.
        Well, you may be pretty skilled on basic Aritmethics, but that may be all what you have…
        Of corse, you still have on your side an coleric caracter, an “I told you so” mentality, and stubborness…Oh, yes, stubborness… to wait and dig in all the cr@ppy details someone said , just to “prove” they are wrong! While completely choosing to ignore the big picture.
        Well, those in power, who are seeing the big picture, have an expression for people like you – they are calling you, and people like you USEFULL IDIOTS !!!!
        Enjoy your status…

      • Right Brain Thinker

        DaveH employs standard troll tactics here as he alternately attacks me and presents “sources” to distract us from the main issue, which he refuses to deal with. I will make only a couple of comments in (CAPS) and parens for now and let Dave squirm some more and dig himself a deeper hole.

        DaveH says:
        December 17, 2012 at 11:57 pm

        Lizard Brain says — “OK, then why did he skip #177 CUBA and #179 NORTH KOREA?”.
        Duh, if you had any brains at all then you would know that Communist Countries don’t typically have unemployment. That’s why they’re Communist — equality; you know equally poor. I’m surprised that Cuba would even say it had a 1.6% unemployment rate. But Cuba’s workers make 1/6 of the annual wages that our workers make. So what good is “equality”? I don’t think North Korea even reports their average wages, they’re so low. Does that make you feel more warm and fuzzy that I exposed that information, LBT? How does that help your case?
        (UH, DAVE—-THE FIGURE FOR CUBA CAME FROM THE DATA SET THAT YOU YOURSELF USED TO TRY AND MAKE YOUR BIASED POINT. STOP SQUIRMING—-IT’S AS REAL AS ANY OF THE OTHER FIGURES YOU USED—WHY DIDN’T YOU USE IT? MY CASE HAS ALREADY BEEN MADE—-YOU’RE DISHONEST—-PROVE ME WRONG)

        DaveH says:
        December 17, 2012 at 11:59 pm

        For those people who would like to see for themselves on the income issue:
        http://siteresources.worldbank.org/DATASTATISTICS/Resources/GNIPC.pdf
        (WHAT’S THE POINT OF THIS EXCEPT TO DISTRACT, DAVE? YOUR ORIGINAL POSTING WAS ABOUT ECONOMIC FREEDOM AND UNEMPLOYMENT. JUST MORE SQUIRMING HERE)

        DaveH says:
        December 18, 2012 at 12:06 am

        Lizard Brain says — “If Dave HAD dropped Zimbabwe as he should have, and used the real “bottom five” for which data were available, he would have come up with an average unemployment rate of 5.6%”.
        Drop Zimbabwe? Why, because it allows you to state your lie, LBT? Is that part of your Liberal Progressive “Scientific” method, LBT — to drop figures which don’t make your point valid? You are so disingenuous as to be down right comical, LBT.
        (YOU’RE THE ONE WHO IS LYING BY INCLUDING IT, DAVE. IT’S AN ANOMALY, .AN “OUTLIER” NUMBER THAT NO MATHEMATICIAN OR SCIENTIST WOULD DRAW A LINE THROUGH IF HE WERE GRAPHING THE DATA. i’M SORRY YOU CAN’T BE HONEST ENOUGH TO ADMIT THAT i WAS RIGHT, THAT YOU JUST COULDN’T RESIST THAT 70% FIGURE. YOU ARE THE ONE THAT PUT IT IN THERE IN AN ATTEMPT TO MAKE YOUR POINT VALID—-ALL IT SHOWED WAS YOUR BIAS)

        DaveH says:
        December 18, 2012 at 12:24 am

        Here’s an interesting fact.
        According to the World Bank, on a purchasing power parity basis, the top five Economically Freest countries, have an average Gross National Income per Capita of about $43,548.
        The bottom five, the least Economically Free, have an average Gross National Income per Capita of less than $4000.
        Try to equivocate that one, Lizard Brain.
        (OH, I WILL, DAVE—-I HAVE GATHERED SOME EXCELLENT DATA THAT MORE THAN EQUIVOCATES THIS MEANINGLESS DATA YOU HAVE POSTED IN YOUR SQUIRMING—-IT WILL AGAIN PROVE THAT YOU USE DATA TO PUSH YOUR BIASES RATHER THAN EXPOSE US TO TRUTH. THE TRUTH IS COMING TO GET YOU, DAVE—HA HA HA—BE AFRAID)

    • Jeff Meyer

      Roundup is most certainly NOT a component of Agent Orange. It is a completely different chemical, and kills weeds in a totally different “mode of action”. An older chemical (2, 4-D) is a component of Agent Orange, and is used less and less since the advent of Roundup. As to the Bt organism, it is widely used in the production of organic crops. Bt is a naturally occurring protein that kills ONLY the larvae stage of the insect species Lepidoptera (moths and butterflies). It is a uniquely shaped protein that certain bacteria (Bacillis Thuringensis hence: Bt) produce. It is simply a PROTEIN that humans are able to break down with enzymes (saliva), and render it harmless.

      If you want to really poison yourselves, just go back to using some of the insecticides and herbicides that were widely used 20 years ago. I know. I used to use them, and the modern ones are FAR safer than what we used to use. It would be wise to educate yourselves before posting the alarmist tripe being spread by some uninformed websites.

      • Mario

        Did you see the pictures of the rats feed whith GMO corn from Monsanto in France?…

      • Right Brain Thinker

        Mario says: “Did you see the pictures of the rats feed with GMO corn from Monsanto in France?… ”
        Sure did, Mario. Did you see my post about the fact that the strain of rats used was perhaps unsuitable for the experiment? That they were unreliable for use in cancer studies?

        Mario also lays out a bunch of horsepucky in an earlier comment, only one small part of which is worth addressing—-”Oh, yes, stubbornness…to wait and dig in all the crappy details someone said , just to “prove” they are wrong! While completely choosing to ignore the big picture”.

        I hate to disillusion you, Mario, but that’s what the concept of debate, discussion, discourse, and argument is all about. Someone states an OPINION, which is meaningless unless it’s backed up with some facts (or is generally accepted, like “I think the Sun will come up tomorrow”). The better the opinion fits the facts, the more valid the opinion. After a long time of accumulating positive evidence and with no contradiction, an opinion can become a fact in itself. It’s ALL ABOUT the “details”—-DaveH selects his “details” in order to prove his faulty opinions and I shoot him down because they contradict truth—-you and anyone else are free to choose which one of us you believe, but the facts are the same for everyone and those who would deny them need to be made aware that they are denying truth.

        That IS the big picture, and your failure to see that makes me think you’re just another motivated reasoner (look it up) that wants to believe what he already believes rather than seek truth. Yes, I am stubborn, Mario—-I live by a code that values truth and reason over blind adherance to ideology. I also live by the tenets of Semper Fidelis that I learned in boot camp over 50 years ago. What do YOU stand for, if anything? As another PLD poster once asked me, “what are your foundational values?”

      • http://priscillaking.blogspot.com Priscilla King

        Bt is not the protein, it’s the bacteria. Most humans are immune to fairly high doses of Bt but our immunity has limits. I don’t think the numbers match well enough to blame Bt, or even Bt-gene splicing, for neurological diseases. I have read though that after consuming large amounts of either the bacteria or foods with their genes spliced in, humans HAVE developed liver disease…with symptoms similar to what’s seen in creatures that die from Bt. Have you ever watched a caterpillar die from Bt? Not something I’d want to risk.

  • T. Jefferson

    Pay big money into the political arena and get away with murder.

  • nc

    Bob, I went by neighbors house the other day and he was cutting his grass and I stopped to tell him that there was a Mr. Livingston saying that the government was killing him by allowing bad foods in the stores. He is a factory worker, age 75, who never farmed in his life and has eaten from our grocery stores ALL OF HIS LIFE. He thanked me and promised to pass the warning on to his father!

    Happy Holidays to ALL!(and I mean it)

    • Jonathan

      Some people have strong constitutions and others don’t. If you look at one person who is healthy and living a long life and you say “hey, everything is OK.” Then you turn a blind eye to everything else that is going on, thousands upon thousands every year dying from every disease you can think of, that’s makes for a pretty uneducated assessment.

    • DaveH

      My father-in-law is 90 and he’s never voted for a Liberal Progressive program in his life.
      So I guess I could stretch way way out like NC and proclaim that proves Conservative voting prolongs one’s life.

      • nc

        DaveH. we have had nothing but Liberal Progressive leaders in our nation in the last 90 years ACCORDING TO YOU! Has father in law EVER SUFFERED from hunger, being taxed into poverty or denied his vote?? Your father-in law’s chief problem seems to be that the devil owed him a debt and paid him off with a son-in-law!

      • Right Brain Thinker

        Good one, nc! LOL Think Dave will get it? Wouldn’t bet on it.

      • DaveH

        No, NC, he hasn’t suffered from hunger. He worked for his money. And the part about being taxed into poverty doesn’t make much sense, NC, since you are the one who champions Big Government and their profligate spending of other peoples’ money.
        In fact, NC, most of the time you don’t make much more sense than Lizard Brain, but at least you are polite about it.

      • Right Brain Thinker

        Well, nc. I would have won the bet if you had taken it—–it DID go right over Dave’s head. So far over, in fact, that he didn’t even blink while launching into his tired old mantra. And congratulations on being considered more “polite” than me—-perhaps Dave doesn’t understand the difference between subtlety and politeness—-I gave up on being polite to him when he could say nothing of substance in reply to my comments except to call me names. I now employ polite bluntness—–he doesn’t seem to understand that much more than polite sublety. He IS fun in a perverse sort of way, though.

    • Mario

      You’re sure you didn’t talk to a Zombie?…
      And, by the way, did you watch him eating every meal?Making sure he’s eating only junk?…
      Did he tell you about vitamins and supplements he’s taking too?…

  • Deerinwater

    Well, ~ there much more then meets the eye here. I wonder what Ron Pauls take on it would be since he has lived in the shadows of DoW Chemical many years in Lake Jackson Texas. I wonder just how forthcoming he would be?

    People that live in such areas seem to have grown up with this occupational hazard
    to not only themselves but family as well seem to have conceded to this battle.

    • DaveH

      Ron Paul would get government out of the issue. No protection for Businesses other than those that Government should give everybody — Protection from Force and Fraud.
      Whether he would insist on labeling laws for consumers protection, I can’t say, although I doubt it. But that’s an issue people could address themselves by avoiding unlabeled products.

    • eddie47d

      The issue there Deerinwater would be if he was in office when DOW moved into his districts neighborhood or if he allowed Dow to pollute or make dangerous products. That might be worth your effort to look into.

      • deerinwater

        Oh! I already know that answer. ~ Klute, Lake Jackson, Brazoria , Surfside, Freeport Texas , is home of Ron Paul and DoW Chemical Company.

        The Spanish Moss is every so slightly beginning to return. As a child, it graced all the huge old oak trees, trees 12ft across at the base, ~ the whole country side at one time was decorated so. DoW released something into the air and killed it. Skin and liver cancer is very popular among the men now days. Not many make it passed 66 anymore. It’s a Company Town, much like the West Virginia;s coal mining communities. It accepted as an occupational and regional hazard starting just south of Houston and the 2 hour drive south to the sea, all Dow Chemical, Oil & Gas and fishing.

        Ron Paul has ignored it in much the same way as everyone else.

  • Jonathan

    If you have a carpenter building a house and he is putting a nail in a wall here, than running over to another place and putting a screw in a cupboard, than going to another place and drilling a hole, and he does this all day long, what do you get? He gets nothing done. But if he concentrates on one thing, the house will start getting built.

    This is how we are trying to fix this government. We run from one thing to another trying to fix this or that and nothing is getting done. Things are just getting worse!!!! Getting rid of GMO products would be a good place to start, (concentrating on one thing.) AND GETTING IT DONE !!!!!!!!!!!! From the looks of it, I believe all parties would agree that GMOs are bad for this country and the people who reside here.

    • DaveH

      I think by exposing all of the negative Meddling that Government does in our Marketplaces, people will eventually learn the reality that Big Government is not only hazardous to our Freedom but also to our Health and Prosperity.

      • eddie47d

        You are only partially right Dave H for private companies have been putting dangerous products on the market for generations and making huge profits in doing so. The less banks are regulated (whether internally or externally) the more schemes they plot against the consumer as another example. We are all well aware that you hate almost all forms of government so you constantly take an extreme position. Some of us equally don’t like private enterprise manipulating and screwing the consumer or in this case what goes on our dinner plate. Monsanto may now be the new robber baron and they may now have government approval but they did start out on their own. Which means there are two guilty parties not just the government.

      • boyscout

        DaveH, Government does not have to be really big to step in and confront really big corporatist institutions. It just has to be big enough to say NO to influence buyers and sellers, to congressional and senatorial corruption, and to the untested unproven Ag products that affect every consumer.

      • DaveH

        Who is more extremist, Eddie, a guy who just tells the truth about what is really going on, or a Troll who spouts copious amounts of conjecture in an effort to put whole groups of people in the same pigeon hole with no evidence whatever to back up the accusations?

      • eddie47d

        Who would that be who is telling the truth? Wasn’t sure who you meant but you lump all Liberal Progressives into the same category on a daily basis. Just to poke a little at you you also call RBT, Lizard Brain so so much for being cordial. You can spout off what ever you like but don’t be so coy about it. Heck every once in awhile I even take it personal from some of the right wing trolls around here.

      • DaveH

        Because you Liberal Progressives are mostly alike, Eddie, in your theft of other peoples’ Freedom and Property.
        And excuse me if I bring a gun to your gunfights once in a while. I know that being equally rude is not allowed in your Liberal Progressive game book, but you’ll just have to suck it up.

    • Right Brain Thinker

      From the “looks of” the science involved, GMO are minimally harmful and have done much good for the world. Why would we want to “get rid of them”? If we can fault the use of GMO at all , it would be that the increase in food supply and resulting better nourishment has allowed the human population to grow too rapidly, thereby creating many other problems (but that’s a different argument).

      • DaveH

        What “science”, Lizard Brain? Because you say so?
        And isn’t it just like a Liberal Progressive to whine about the population size yet not offer to take himself out of the pool. More evidence of typical Liberal Selfishness.

      • Mario

        Same comment as posted to Jeff Meyer:
        Did you see the pictures of rats feed whith GMO corn from Monsanto in France?…

  • mary

    IS THIS LISTED ON THE LABELS OF THIS PRODUCT AND WHAT DO WE LOOK FOR

    • Karolyn

      Mary – You can find products in health food stores labeled “Non GMO”. However, there are no regulations for labeling. That’s what California just tried to do. There are sites online with lists of foods and manufcturers to avoid. Unfortunately, the list is very long. There is not much available now. Even stores like Whole Foods have been exposed as having GMO products. They have us by the throat!
      http://naturalsociety.com/top-10-worst-gmo-foods-list/

    • DaveH

      So far, GMO products have escaped Labeling Laws, Mary. One might wonder why that is, given that companies must label such nonsense as how many calories their products contain. Of course it is just one more example of Crony Capitalism.
      Here is what some citizens are doing to protect themselves:
      http://readersupportednews.org/opinion2/271-38/14584-after-gmo-labeling-shot-down-citizens-start-labeling-themselves

    • Concerned

      The only way to protect yourself and the ones you love is to buy organic. The cost only seems expensive. When your life is on the line it’s not really expensive. I have been trying to tell this to people for over 25 years. I follow this simple way of life and am never sick.

  • DaveH

    Thanks for the shopping guide, Bob.

  • Brock d’Avignon

    Where are the casualty and medical curative insurance companies in this debate? The author decrying fascism of government-business partnership a la Mussolini, has not either inquired or asked what free market risk liability assessments have been done, particularly if expensive losses to carcinogens are happening as claimed. Risk managers and statistical actuaries are not statists, and though hospitals might benefit from treatment, no insurance companies are mentioned. Reinsurance companies that meet in Monte Carlo every September to discuss how to cope with widespread disasters from whatever cause (smoking to terrorists to tsunamis) should be talked to if a manmade disaster is the byproduct of feeding more people with formerly bug-proof and weed proof crops and less fat animals. More power to govern-mentality and admitted failure at the ballot box, is feeding the beast hoping tyranny eats you last. People find tyranny a greater threat to health than GMOs, so if you are serious with good facts, then call for investigations by insurance company courts of opinion. You might even have funds to use to get at what GMOs are harmful in what circumstances, and which are benign. Politicians and general ballots are not always good at dealing with sensationalism or neglect. Try a libertarian solution to your perceived problem, and you’ll get to the truth and the liability.

    • DaveH

      If you were a Libertarian you would know that Insurance companies are among the biggest Crony Capitalists of them all.
      Real Libertarians would fight for getting Government out of the Marketplace except for enforcement against Force or Fraud, and let consumers decide for themselves which products to avoid and which to patronize.

    • Right Brain Thinker

      DaveH spouts more inanities in response to a thoughtful comment from Brock.:

      There doesn’t seem to be much recent concern about GMO among insurance companies. They did express some concern earlier in the history of GMO when field trials were first conducted, in that they wouldn’t insure the seed companies against unforeseen bad results, which they categorized then as being the same as acts of God, or acts of war. Since the science has shown that there is little to fear from GMO, that may be the reason why we hear little today.

      This is in contrast to the “noise” that insurance companies are now making about the validity of anthropogenic global warming and climate change. The massive losses they are suffering because of extreme weather occurrences have caused them to look at the science of AGW more closely, and some have now come out in favor of taking steps to counter AGW—-just good business.

      • DaveH

        LBT says — “Since the science has shown that there is little to fear from GMO”.
        Again with the “science” claim. Show us a legitimate double-blind study, Lizard Brain, which has proved the harmlessness of GMOs.

  • John

    To make a few quick points: Most people in the USA are not directly involved in food production(1% of the population). Consequently, using fear of the unknown, fellow ignorants can spread partial truths and outright fabrications and get away with them. GMO corn can not be reproduced from its seed not because of a terminator gene, but because it is a f8 or more hybrid and must be reproduced from its parent lines every year(the whole process takes as much as 4-5 years for each seed crop, in most cases). Soybeans can reproduce themselves but growers are required to sign contracts agreeing not to use the seed to protect the patent rights of the producers. There are non GMO soybeans available as well as corn.
    Weed resistance to any herbicide is inevitable. Glyphosate has been used since the mid 1970″s and we have prolonged its effectiveness by using multiple modes of action. We have not created demon weeds that will not die.
    Farmers are not stupid hayseeds. Most of them are highly intelligent, effective businessmen and women who know exactly what they are doing. They care about the environment(it’s their land!). They care about their animals and work harder than most of you every day to make a profit and feed the world.
    The scientist who work on behalf of the agricultural community are great people. They are passionate about what they do and have families and care about our world as much if not more than you do.
    Not all of agriculture gets subsidies. There are none for the fruit and vegetable industry. Price supports for the big three, corn, wheat and soybeans exist but are not always applicable. They do buy votes. Also there is crop insurance, subsidized by taxpayers that farmers must pay into to benefit from.
    There is no scientific evidence that GMO’s are harmful. I’m not saying they are not, but if you are not familiar with the Scientific method, I suggest you look it up. If we don’t base our decisions on science then anything goes.

    • Karolyn

      Believe me; I do my research; and i disagree with you.

      • John

        Prove it!

      • Karolyn

        Well, here’s one study. i don’t have time right now to list more.
        http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2012/09/22/superbugs-destruct-food-supply.aspx
        Curious – so you also support using so many chemicals like artificial sweeteners and preservatives in foods?

      • John

        Karolyn, your Dr. Mercola website is as controversial as GMO’s! The study you site in France was not peer reviewed though Dr. Mercola implies it was.

      • John

        Artificial sweetners and food preservatives are another subject. At this point, we have some freedom to choose what we put in our bodies. I am glad of that and encourage you to allow others to do the same. This whole topic is narcissistic and somewhat nauseating. Because I believe in the Scientific method, automatically I’m anti-capitalist, pro big business, pro agent orange (by the way Ed, agent orange is a combination of two herbicides, 2,4,5-T and 2,4-D) and for food adulteration, when I never expressed any of those views.

      • Karolyn

        John – I stand behind Dr. Mercola all the way, ever since I was diagnosed with hepc and found out through my research that chemo would more than likely destroy my life as I knew it. Any info I have gleaned from Mercola has only served to further enhance my health. He could not have gotten to where he is by misleading people.

    • DaveH

      John says — “There is no scientific evidence that GMO’s are harmful”.
      There is also no scientific evidence that they aren’t harmful.
      Can you cite a legitimate double-blind study, John, where GMO products have been proven harmless?

      • DaveH

        The truth is that we have no idea if they are harmful or not, but we do know that our bodies have evolved on the natural unadulterated foods, that nature has provided, for thousands of years, whereas the jury is out on genetically altered foods.
        So if some people prefer to avoid those foods as a precaution, they should be allowed that Freedom without Government interference.

      • http://gravatar.com/bychoosing WTS/JAY

        Excellent!!!

      • Right Brain Thinker

        Another “Lord love a duck” comment from DaveH, who actually says to John:

        “There is also no scientific evidence that they aren’t harmful.
        Can you cite a legitimate double-blind study, John, where GMO products have been proven harmless?”

        Uh, Dave, can I suggest to you the way science usually operates when something is considered “harmful”? Experiments are done to discover any harmful effects from the “something”—-it’s called “causality”—-what John has said is true—-no harmful effects have been found..

        And if you would define “legitimate double-blind study” for me, particularly the “legitimate” part of that, I would be more than glad to try to discuss that with you. LOL

        DaveH also says, : “The truth is that we have no idea if they are harmful or not, but we do know that our bodies have evolved on the natural unadulterated foods, that nature has provided, for thousands of years, whereas the jury is out on genetically altered foods. So if some people prefer to avoid those foods as a precaution, they should be allowed that Freedom without Government interference”.

        To which WTS/JAY says: “Excellent!!!” I say to Jay that he needs to be much more specific when he says such a thing to Dave, lest he encourage Dave in comnsistently being 98+% wrong on everything. If Jay is saying excellent to the last sentence, I can agree with that to a point, although the implication of “government interference” is an overreach by Dave.

        If Jay is encouraging the incredibly bad science in the first sentence, I must scold Jay for that. Yes, our bodies have evolved on “natural” foods, and those foods have differed down through time and from place to place. GMO foods ARE natural and ARE unadulterated—-they have been modified the same way plant and animal breeders have modified living things for 10+ thousand years, the only difference being that we now use “technology” rather than “breeding”. They are made of the same molecules and are broken down and used in the body through the exact same biochemistry as the non-GMO foods. The word ADULTERATION means the addition of something that is NOT “natural”, and that is the case with food dyes, preservatives, trace growth hormones, traces of metals like mercury and arsenic, and organic chemicals like PCB’s, DDT, and the like, all of which have become problems only with the advent of modern “food chemistry” and the industrial age. The genes that the scientists are “modifying” and the processes by which those genes express themselves have been here for millions of years and GMO foods reflect that origin in the “natural” world.

      • Mario

        Blah, blah, blah…Hey Lizard Brain, where is your Aritmetic skill? Got lost somewhere in your vast cerebel? And now you have to go down to rhetoric in order to impress us?…
        Be carefull, rhetoric is the darling of politicians and academics – both categories being usefull to human kind as mosquitos and hemoriods. Both parasitic and selfserving…

    • DaveH

      John says — “Not all of agriculture gets subsidies”.
      Subsidies, John, are just one of many categories of Protection that Big Businesses receive from Big Government at their competitors’ expense, the taxpayers’ expense, and their consumers’ expense.
      Those, who want to get a feeling for just how ubiquitous Crony Capitalism has become, can read this:
      http://www.amazon.com/The-Big-Ripoff-Business-Government/dp/0471789070

    • DaveH
      • DaveH

        From the above:
        “The June 1, 2004 issue of Playboy tells how one longtime Indiana farmer, Troy Roush, once big on biotech was wrongly accused of saving seed. The legal fight cost him $390,000 in lawyers’ fees. Since then he has begun to see the way the system is devastating traditional farming. “Genetically modified crops are destroying the social fabric of our rural communities” he says, “Roush probably couldn’t go back to conventional crops even if he could find good conventional seed; once Monsanto’s DNA is in your field it’s almost impossible to get it out. And with the corporate DNA police abroad in the land, farmers can’t afford to take a chance. So it looks as though there’s no turning back from a future in which Monsanto and a handful of other companies own the genetic building blocks of the world’s food supply. ‘I’d put the genie back in the bottle in a heartbeat,’ says Roush”".

      • Right Brain Thinker

        I find it hard to believe that DaveH is so clueless that he cites a website that is NOT a right-wing horsepucky site. Further evidence of his cluelessness is selecting a clip from PLAYBOY amongst all the really good clips on the site. Perhaps all those Playboys he has kept under his bed since he was 12 and still reads under the covers influenced his choice?:

        At any rate, it is a site that does offer a pretty balanced view on GMO and I approve of Dave’s sourcing it, even though he (as usual) doesn’t quite know what he’s doing.

        .

    • boyscout

      John, Visit the monocropped fields of Kansas and Nebraska and do a bio-test of the soil, check out the poultry industry, and beef feed lots and how each uses GMO grains, antiboitics and hormones as standard regimin and then continue with your educated caring farmer diatribe…To remain afloat in an industry that is dominated by outlandishly huge corporations, the “effective businessmen and women” in agriculture are left with little choice but to buckle under here and there no matter how much they care. As for non GMO corn, don’t expect to get any from a field adjacent to a GMO variety (air born polllenation).
      John, i’ts not the farmers and scientists that concern me; it’s the greedy corporatist CEOs and the proffits ant any cost people who do.

  • robert morrow

    Have you read any food labels lately? Just how much toxic chemicals are allowed in the foods you consume each day? We have an out of control agency like the FDA (Murder for Corporate Profit inc) which allows thousands of toxic material in the food supply. Here is a quote from one of their own:”THE THING THAT BUGS ME IS THAT PEOPLE THINK THE FDA IS PROTECTING THEM. IT ISN’T. THE FDA IS PROTECTING THE PROFITS OF THE CORPORATIONS THAT PAY US AND THE POLITICIANS!” Herbert Ley,M.D. Former FDA Commissioner. So, where does your elected Politician stand? The ones that took the Oath and broke the moment that they occupied the office and sold us out for the 30 pieces of Blood Stained Silver. So, in ending enjoy your daily staff of life, Bread which contains AZODICARBONAMIDE and lots of other poison. No wonder we have so many crazies roaming around like Zombies. Of course the food poisons are not the only items, there is the poison drugs that do not cure, but slowly and painfully murder at a markup prices in the thousands of %. So Comrades in ending enjoy your poison drugs and foods.

  • Ed

    2,4-D by any other name is still 2,4-D. In Viet Nam we called it “Agent Orange” and I think we all know how that worked out.

  • http://wildeyguns.com The Christian American

    Look at life this way. You are living in a involuntary socialist state, a planned society. Those planning your lives, liberties and properties like to experiment with their subject’s. Somebody can come to them with an idea to make their “Burro”s” more productive, better tax paying assets for the state. You have no voice with the planners. Everything you purchase must have the “Planners seal of approval”. Everything you do must have the “Planner seal of approval”. Everything you say must be politically correct. Everything you eat must have the “Planners seal of approval”. The chief planner, Obama, must be looked at in a different way. The Emperor Caligula told us how to view your planner when he said: If I am man, then my subjects must be something else. If they are men, then I must be something more. Read and believe John 3:16. You may be locked in this state now but but John 3:16 is for eternity.

    • nc

      Christian, have you ever been treated for depression! Fears cans be imaginary! What do you want from your government that you are not getting? What rights have you personally lost? Can you go to the church of our choice? Has anyone from the government been to your door to warn you of your conduct or your speech? Have they taken your Bible?? Has any foreign nation bombed your property, killed your neighbor or captured your children? Ever been denied the right to vote? You are not guaranteed the right to have the government function to your liking! All of the people who feel the opposite from you have had times when they wished it was different also! That is the strength of the nation and not a weakness or sign of doom! You are fearing the hurricane when you should be enjoying the breeze!

      • FreedomFighter

        NC we do have a constitution and it is being violated

        Reagan Warned Us About Obama

        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P3hY1eagq88

        Laus Deo
        Semper Fi

      • http://twitter.com/michaelmcdani19 michael mcdaniel sr (@michaelmcdani19)

        GMOs are behind the obesity epidemic striking the US and the world now. monsanto, dupont, dow chemical, etc., are behind the GMOs. they are also behind the propagation of the so-called food pyramid that has one existing on breads and pastas, a few vegetables and fruits, and very little proteins. these companies knew what would happen to people, plants, livestock, environment WHEN & IF GMOs are used. they told the gov’t, FDA, USDA, EPA, etc., all these results. these organizations said go ahead and use the GMOs because we DO NOT give a damn about the populace, livestock, plants, or the environment. we will just get more tax monies from the suckers to fix WHATEVER goes wrong WHENEVER it goes wrong; be it the people, plants, animals, or lands.

      • Mario

        Hey, NC, from what planet are you writing?…Earth?…Really?…
        Ah, sorry, I knew the Internet covers mentally insane facillities, but I thought only medical personal has access to the computers. It seems I was wrong…unless the patients took control of the facility…

  • Right Brain Thinker

    DaveH may be going for a new “inanities” record on this thread. 12 out of 42 comments are his—–29 % of the total.

    And he still has not responded to:

    Dave said, “Lucky for you, RBT, because I haven’t seen a legitimate rebuttal to any of my claims by you Liberal Progressives yet”

    I have been chasing Dave for days now on this—-he has been hiding from me and refusing to answer. I’LL ASK YOU YET AGAIN, DAVE—WHAT ABOUT MY COMMENT RE:THE DATA YOU MISUSED FROM THE HERITAGE INSTITUTE ON “ECONOMICALLY FREE” COUNTRIES AND UNEMPLOYMENT? ARE YOU EVER GOING TO ANSWER MY ACCUSATIONS OF DISHONESTY ON YOUR PART?

    Let me remind you of your claim, Dave. YOU don’t get to determine what a “legitimate” rebuttal is, as much as you would like to do so. . So, show us your stuff, Dave—-rebut my rebuttal.

    • DaveH

      LOL. Lizard Brain is now counting the number of my comments. What useless endeavor can we expect next from you, Lizard Brain?

      • DaveH

        Whatever they’re paying you, Lizard Brain, it’s too much. A fifth grader could do a better job, and a whole lot cheaper.

      • Mario

        Gee, Lizard Brain, you just recovered your Arithmetic skills! Looks, after all, your cerebel isn’t as big as I thought!…

    • REAL thinking brain

      Well, let’s try THIS on you!! I am totally against the use of GMO’s PERIOD! I am pressing Congress, that they be BANNED from use in the United States, and elsewhere until open and balanced scientific studies FROM ALL SIDES can, without a shadow of a doubt PROVE that GMO’s can be considered totally safe!! Why? Because I believe that the studies, based on pure science, will shine a light on GMO’s as being a major cause of Autism in our kids (not just vaccine ingredients)!
      Monsanto and Conagra just fought a battle in California to reject labeling of their foods as containing Genetically Modified Ingredients, convincing the rather liberal population of California NOT to do so! They fought it because they KNOW that if they have to label our food supply as having said ingredients, THEY CAN’T SELL THEM!! Nobody in their right mind wants to eat stuff that has been directly sprayed with Roundup!(Or do you not know that their corn has been genetically modified to be able to be sprayed directly with Roundup, KILLING every weed, blade of grass, flowers and anything EXCEPT said corn?)
      Nobody wants to eat stuff that has been genetically modified, BECAUSE we don’t trust it to NOT effect our children and ourselves! PERIOD! And just who would volunteer their family for experimentation?? Certainly not those who run Monsanto and Conagra!

      But that is not the ONLY reason for the fight! Monsanto wants to be able to PATENT their GM seeds, so that they can get paid when “John Doe” farmer can’t prove that his crops HAVEN’T been grown using their patented seeds! (And this WILL occur, as the wind will blow seeds and pollens from the farm next door, and mr. farmer’s crops will test positive for GM patented seed usage unintentionally!!)They even financed a “study” by a major college to throw common sense out the door by MISLEADING the people of California, telling them that “vegetables that have been grown “Organically” are no more nutritious than “regular” crops!!
      REALLY??? Of course we KNOW that! A Beefsteak Tomato is a Beefsteak Tomato!! HOWEVER the misleading part is that the ORGANIC food supply was grown WITHOUT pesticides and artificial fertilizers! They HID the fact that the “regular” crops were GMO’d!! Just because ‘they’ say that they’re safe, don’t make it so!!
      And just because YOU trust Monsanto to do the right thing, doesn’t make them trustworthy either! I don’t trust them for one reason!! MONEY! That’s all they’re interested in! NOT whether their foods can lead to death, autism, obesity, and any other list of malady’s! The Bible says that ‘money is the root of all evil’, and that statement is true! Monsanto wants MORE profits! A way to grow corn quicker, larger, and able to produce more without bug attacks and won’t rot as fast, will produce MORE PROFITS! Whether it’s safe for consumption is, in THEIR minds, YOUR problem, NOT theirs!! That’s why there are ‘usage’ clauses on products! Like ‘the use, OR misuse of the product cannot be foreseen by the manufacturer, and shell be the responsibility of the user!’

      • BobfromSoCal

        If you are going to quote the Bible, at least quote it correctly. It does not say that money is the root of all evil. What it does say is that “the love of money is the root of all evil”. Money in of itself is not evil. If you love something more than God you make that object your god.

      • Robert Smith

        Bob says: “If you love something more than God you make that object your god.”

        At least one is sure what they are getting when they use money.

        With that brutal christian god that is cited around here ever so much the odds don’t appear to be very good.

        For example, how’s ’bout praying that no more kids get shot. How’s that going after Colembine?

        How’s ’bout praying that nobody who can’t afford it gets sick…

        How’s ’bout praying that illegals have wonderful opportunities where they came from and go back?

        Have any of the above problems been solved?

        Nope. They are real. Seems to me like only a brutal god would allow them to happen.

        Rob

      • LoneStar

        I like how you think, Real thinking Brain. And Mr. Lefty bob from california, what he meant is Monsanto cares more about making money, than protecting the people who consume this food, that has not yet been proved that it is ok for human comsumption.

  • FreedomFighter

    Why do they permit GMO foods?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LJc8Mzg0C-c

    Laus Deo
    Semper Fi

  • Motov

    GMO need to be tested like any other artificial substance, on the long run to be considered safe.

  • Karolyn

    Perfect day to add this petition for those of us concerned about gmos to sign.
    http://action.fooddemocracynow.org/sign/stop_the_monsanto_protection_act_today/?akid=690.469184.9yE4bN&rd=1&t=1

  • Right Brain Thinker

    Rereading Bob’s article caused a closer look at this statement, “Following the French study that showed that rats fed GMO corn over their lifetime developed massive cancer tumors, Russia’s consumer protection group Rospotrebnadzor said it was halting all imports of GMO corn until the country’s Institute of Nutrition has a chance to evaluate the study”. (and Bob gave us a link)

    Learn more: http://www.naturalnews.com/037328_Russia_GMO_Monsanto.html#ixzz2FLJVcrKC

    Going to the link yielded an interesting article, the most significant statement made therein being: “the French study looked at the effects of rats eating GM corn (and drinking trace levels of Roundup herbicide) for two years”. It also showed some grotesque pictures of huge tumors on rats. Impressive, if one hasn’t got enough science background to evaluate the “evidence”.

    One needs to know that the lifespan of the typical lab rat is 2 to 3 years, and that means they were likely nearing the ends of their lives when the tumors appeared. One needs tp also notice that they were “eating GM corn (and drinking trace levels of Roundup herbicide)” for two years, meaning they started them on this diet right after they were weaned. The question then arises—–What caused the cancers?—-the GMO corn or the “trace levels” (unspecified) of ROUNDUP? Very poor experimental design when you have two variables like that.

    It would be the same as taking a bunch of humans at age five and feeding them nothing but Twinkies and (“trace” amounts of) rat poison until they died a bit early at age 65 AND BLAMED IT ON THE TWINKIES. The Russians may find other reasons to reject GMO food but most likely this “study’ will not be one of them.

    (I won’t waste time going into the unsuitability of rats as a test subject in this study other than to say that pigs or other animals might have been better surrogates for humans. Of course, rats are far cheaper, and if you’re doing a lousy experiment with lousy design, you don’t want to spend too much).

    • DaveH

      Don’t know if you can’t read, or you know nothing about scientific testing, or if you are just assuming the readers are too ignorant to know that your comments are fallacious, Lizard Brain.
      But the test Rats were tested on two different substances, one group being fed the GMO corn, and another group being administered Round-up. A third group was fed Round-up-sprayed GMO corn.
      They were not given BOTH. And of course, as in any valid scientific test, there were control Rats who were given NEITHER.

      And if you bothered to read the article that was linked to, you would have seen this — “The regulatory approval process requires these products to be tested on rats as a surrogate for humans”.

      For a guy who was trying to rank Bob on his scientific knowledge, you sure are clueless. But then I guess that’s why you’re known as Lizard Brain.

      For those who would like to view the actual study:
      http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0278691512005637

      • Right Brain Thinker

        DaveH says, “They were not given BOTH. And of course, as in any valid scientific test, there were control Rats who were given NEITHER”, and launches into his usual ad hominems because he thinks he has trapped me.

        I make no apologies for interpreting the EXACTLY quoted statement from the link the way I did—–“the French study looked at the effects of rats eating GM corn (and drinking trace levels of Roundup herbicide) for two years”. The “and” implies that the same group group of rats did both things. They should say what they mean if they don’t want to be misinterpreted. So, nice try, Dave, but you’ll have to look elsewhere for your next attack on me.

        Imprecision of language makes one question the precision of the experiment, so I did chug on through many references to the work in question.

        One reference was headed “Press Release” and stated:

        “The results of these experiments, the story and its implications have been explained in a book « Tous Cobayes ! » by Gilles-Eric Séralini, published on Sept. 26 by Flammarion. Simultaneously, a film adapted from this book “All guinea pigs ?” by Jean-Paul Jaud will be launched. A TV documentary “GMO, a World Alert ?” by François Le Bayon will be shown. The legal and social impact has been written « La vérité sur les OGM c’est notre affaire » by Corinne Lepage from the European Parliament, published by Charles Léopold Mayer”.

        Hmmmm—-a book?—-a film?—–a TV documentary?—-and yet another book? And there was a big court case over defamation also. All in all, it sounds like a whole bunch of folks are moving away from the science of GMOI over there and getting into politicizing it and profiting from the turmoil. Not much different than what goes on over here.

        Looking at some straight science references ont hte work in question, we find that there are many who question the methodology of the experiment (probably paid shills for the GMO companies—–Isn’t that right, Dave?) There is much to wade through, and the methodology is far more complicated than DaveH implies. It’s all beside the point and doesn’t need to be belabored. I came across one very interesting ‘complaint about the work, that the experimenters were faulted for using the Sprague-Dawley strain of rats. Why? Because the Sprague-Dawley strain appears to be rather unreliable when used in studies on cancer-causing substances. That was interesting to me, and since I don’t know all that much about rat strains, I looked further and found the following:

        “A 1972 study compared neoplasms in “Sprague-Dawley” rats from 6 different commercial suppliers and found highly significant differences in the incidences of endocrine and mammary tumors. There were even significant variations in the incidences of adrenal medulla tumors among rats from the same source raised in different laboratories. All but 1 of the testicular tumors occurred in the rats from a single supplier. The researchers found that the incidence of tumors in Sprague-Dawley rats from different commercial sources varied as much from each other as from the other strains of rats. The authors of the study “stressed the need for extreme caution in evaluation of carcinogenicity studies conducted at different laboratories and/or on rats from different sources.”

        Does that need any further explanation? It’s a bit mind-blowing, actually, to think that we are doing studies that may be doomed from the start because of things like this.

    • Mario

      Hey, Lizard Brain, let’s end this debate forever! If the fu#*ing GMOs are so harmless why the [expletive deleted] you don’t volontier as a guineea pig? We can do it togheter, you know? I swear I will feed you only GMO food for two years( no other kind of food permited), three times a day, cooked as you like. In exchange, you swear to not sue me for anything happens to you(if you’ll live to do that!)…
      Do we have a deal?…

  • Karolyn
    • eddie47d

      Keep ‘um coming Karolyn.

    • Right Brain Thinker

      Karolyn,

      I’m sorry to stick a pin in your balloon but this Russian scientist’s (Irina Ermakova) work dates back to 2003, has never been published in a journal, has never been peer-reviewed, and has been thoroughly “shot down” by many scientists who have much better credentials in the field than she does.

      The only reason her “results” are still being quoted is that the GMO “haters” find it convenient to do so. Some of those “haters” are on the right, and they are mad at Monsanto because of personal liberty issues and the like. Many of the GMO haters are from the Liberal-Progressive end of the spectrum, a place that I have been accused of coming from—-I’m not quite sure why they’re anti-GMO, since folks on the left tend to be more accepting of science..

      I don’t particularly like the way Monsanto operates, but the SCIENCE of GMO and basic biology compels me to say to the folks on the left that you are being motivated reasoners when you attack GMO—-you are flat out wrong. The folks on the left are doing the same motivated reasoning with vaccinations and fracking. Science does not support the views that vaccinations or fracking are harmful…

      • DaveH
      • DaveH

        Lizard Brain says — “I’m not quite sure why they’re anti-GMO, since folks on the left tend to be more accepting of science”.
        In your dreams, Lizard Brain. Leftists live in a fantasy world and typically embrace Junk Science.
        You’ve proved to be one of them.
        And Progressives are those who champion Big Central Government, LBT, which fits you to a tee. And you are a Liberal — typically those who want to ram their pet desires down everybody else’s throats. So Liberal Progressive describes you well, LBT.
        All the evidence points to you being a shill for Big Government. Maybe even the same shill that calls himself Flashy, and probably at least working in the same Boiler Room. It seems that they could find somebody who could argue the Liberal Progressive cause more effectively though.
        Of course, I know that there is no effective way to argue the Liberal Progressive cause, but most people have been Propagandized into such a stupor that Liberal Progressives can get away with their fallacious arguments.

      • Mario

        I’m still waiting for your response on my proposition from 3:56 am…

  • tom

    Our government bans organic food and home gardens, soon, and allows GMO ! Now do you get it ?

  • Cary Elcome
  • REAL thinking brain

    If you’re reading this, and you are worried about your and your family’s health, KNOW THIS!! Monsanto, ConAgra, and others are trying to fool you into thinking that GMO foods are totally safe! There have been NO real scientific studies to prove or disprove this! HOWEVER what you CAN prove, with very little effort, is that autism in our children has gone through the roof (Now one in eighty-eight births!!)!! And NOBODY knows why! Yet we keep letting corporations like Monsanto do what they want too, with NO restrictions for safety! After all, everybody needs to eat! Right?

    That a corporation like Monsanto SHOULD be profitable, and want to increase profits for their shareholders, is FINE and not questioned! But to try to take over the entire food supply, NOT just of the United States, but rather the whole world, WITHOUT being totally honest about the safety of their products, is beyond intolerable! THEY DON’T KNOW that genetically modifications is safe!!
    The way to fight this is to go to your representatives loaded with information about what we DON’T know, and why you object! What we DO know, and want to make sure that the representative knows also! That YOU want food that contains genetically modified ingredients LABELED to say so!!
    We DO know that Monsanto and others want to PATENT their genetically modified seeds! Monsanto KNOWS that if they can patent the seeds, AND that say, an Organic Farmer plants his field near one of THEIR farms, the pollen and some of their seeds will get into the field of the organic farmer! THIS occurs naturally! Wind, rain drainage, and other natural processes carry seeds and pollen for miles! THEN what Monsanto plans to do, is sue Mr. Organic farmer for not paying for their seeds! A team from the state will then be dispatched to test for their patents being violated, which they are–BY NATURE, NOT THE FARMER, and Mr. Farmer will be sued for patent violations, and either have to pay exorbitant fines to Monsanto, or (and I suspect in most cases) end up having to sell, or outright GIVE his farm over to Monsanto to cover said fines! Who loses:?? EVERYBODY!! Everybody that wants the full benefits of healthy foods without the fear of said food contaminated with pesticides and artificial fertilizers! Everybody that doesn’t want to eat genetically modified foods for fear of what it will do to them down the road in time! Everyone who wants to assure their kids that the tomato they’re eating won’t hurt them!

    Monsanto’s fear is that the patents will be rejected, OR if they have to label processed or raw food as being or containing genetic modifications, they won’t be able to sell them, lose money, lose shareholders, and go out of business! They, AND WE can’t afford for that to happen! The days of the local farmer supplying his area with enough food is all but gone! The industrial farmer with contracts to Monsanto are now the norm, or outright ownership of the farm itself by Monsanto, and we have to depend on them for our food! BUT WE, NOT they, have to worry about heath! IF there’s a CHANCE that modified foods can, as some scientists fear, modify OUR gene structures by consumption of said foods, OR be a primary source of autism in our children, produce cancer, or accelerate other maladies such as early onset of Alzheimer’s, WE should have the RIGHT to make sure that we know what foods are modified! We the People have the RIGHT to make our representatives STOP this genetic modification until WE are satisfied that enough scientific evidence has been PROVEN that says it’s OK!

    My contention is NOT that the GMO food supply IS unsafe!! it may BE safe!! But the fact that they want to put genetically modified crops on the market WITHOUT enough scientific research to know beyond a doubt that they ARE safe, AND do so without labeling said crops, serves as a warning that we need to slow this down to a stop! Our government should be at the forefront of safety! I don’t mind an OPEN scientific study to, once and for all, put this subject to bed being funded by my tax money! I don’t and WOULDN’T trust a ‘study’ funded by Monsanto, or any shareholder (directly or indirectly) thereof, and when I say ‘OPEN” I mean that independent scientists from all nations, who OPENLY share with not ONLY each other, but the public in general who have a vested interest in the results of their work! And NO! not a consensus of scientists like we had over global warming, which proves NOTHING! But rather ‘Pure’ Science in use! Pure science is where you do (A) and record the result! If the result is NOT what you expected, sorry! Because the controlled result is the truth! And when you’re trying to PROVE OR DISPROVE whether or not genetic manipulation of food is safe for humans? It will tale a LONG time! See HOW does a scientist PROVE how genetically modified grains affect the DNA of humans? In my educated opinion, it will take a long time, as genetic modification doesn’t happen overnight, and eating one genetically modified corn kernel, or a dozen, or an entire ear, etc, WON’T do it! Genetic changes take time! To HAVE to eat genetically modified foods, with NO choice BUT TOO, is a crime! I don’t mind paying a little more for GUARANTEED organically grown food, BUT the problem HERE is the little bitty fact that you can grow genetically modified food ORGANICALLY also!! You may be eating a time bomb, and won’t know it, until you’re dying! And Monsanto will still be in business, and nobody cares until EVERYBODY finds out what they’ve been eating for YEARS was killing them, and was preventable!

  • macgyver1948

    Bob Livingston… I have to agree with the poster who says it was a good business move to purchase the bee research firm but I feel unfortunately it was a manipulation move on their part and we will suffer for it eventually. Not only Monsanto but many other food related corporations have been doing the self serving business thing for many decades and we will be the suffers for it. Thank you for bringing this to our attention, as it should have been for a long time, and it should be restated often until all food companies sell products which are not only healthful for us but also not only in their business-before-all-else practices. I do not like Monsanto’s tactics either and they should not be trusted.

    Personally I would like to go to a total-truth in advertising and that includes labeling. Wouldn’t it be nice if we really knew what we were consuming, or not consuming, even to the parts of grams? Perhaps a small example but pretty important. Does anyone here know what happens to vitamins when you apply heat, as in cooking? Vitamins seem to be an important part of food product advertising but what are we really getting when it gets to our plate if we cook the food? I bet the Monsanto’s of the world would heavily fight against total-truth in advertising. I wonder why.

    • DaveH

      One thing we could do as concerned citizens is to boycott corn products which are not labeled “GMO free”. If enough of us do that, they will have no choice but to start labeling their products.

      • Robert Smith

        But wouldn’t the government telling to label it be “regulation?”

        I honestly believe that your boycott would work.

        It didn’t hurt Ford one bit when the Family Council wanted to boycotted them.

        Rob

      • http://midcontent brand inspector

        [comment has been edited] In the 60′s nobody should drink milk when weaned, now we have loys of males and females with ostro disease(weak bones) thanks to theorists. Next it was don’t eat eggs, now they are touted as greay protein scorce, no pork was next as well as beef and eat more fish [expletive deleted]. All slowly getting more bull. Then we had the vegan moronic idea, only trouble there isn’t enough farmable ground or nut trees to keep the worlds people going. Ungulates are the animals that convert grasses to protein for humans. This includes beef, horses, goats, sheep or any cloven hoof animal. Humans have been cross breeding plants and animals over the centuries to have more production. The preists were the first to gentic manulipate plants and animals.Glad most educated pavement pounders buy in to the government BS. The dems are theb toadies for Monsanto to gain the leverage to control gentic material, just as other paper pushing agencies keep growing larger with more idoitic regulations, (like 90 a day) coming from the marxist/communist commander and the socialist democraps. Keep avoiding GMO’s, and pay through the rear on, (natural) foods. Need to break up the government programs on food production that favor all the mega companies, all Wall Street clowns who are all day suckers on the socialist democrap party, and don’t forget the Dudd-Frank Banking bill that stopped funding for private small operations. Don’t buy any GMO foods, it leaves more cheap fine food for real people.

      • macgyver1948

        DaveH… The boycott is an excellent tool but it needs great numbers. That seems to be the biggest problem but with something as important as what we eat we would think enough of us would get involved fighting against ‘Business As Usual’ – profit over people. We need to figure out how to get the numbers and I wonder if we form an organization such as AARP but for all citizens we would have the needed numbers to fight against Big Business as well as the Elected Officials who are owned by them.

      • DaveH

        Robert says — “But wouldn’t the government telling to label it be “regulation?””.
        Did I say anything about Government, Robert?

      • DaveH

        The thing about Government involvement is that they’re usually going to be on the other side. We don’t need the Force of Government to do what the people really want. Government Force is only necessary to make us do things we don’t want.
        Consumers have the ultimate Power. They just need to exercise it. Don’t buy products you don’t believe in, and buy those you do. You will perhaps be surprised to learn that money talks.

  • Henry

    The Bible says don’t plant mingled seed. Leviticus 19:19

    • deerinwater

      So much for a good Mule and a fine Egyptian cotton bend shirt. What about eating Bean and Rice? ~ I love all those things! A long eared mule is one of the smartest equestrian in the world, much brighter than a horse. ( or most horses anyway)

      Just call me a sinner, ~ I’ll live with it!

      I tend to believe that some engineering is good. Can it be taken to the extreme? Certainly. Where is the line between use and abuse? Remembering that it took close to 50 years for the horseless carriage to be accepted as practical or that Man made ice was actually suitable to put in your mouth.

      Leviticus 19:19

      New International Version (©1984)
      “‘Keep my decrees. “‘Do not mate different kinds of animals. “‘Do not plant your field with two kinds of seed. “‘Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material.

      New Living Translation (©2007)
      “You must obey all my decrees. “Do not mate two different kinds of animals. Do not plant your field with two different kinds of seed. Do not wear clothing woven from two different kinds of thread.

      English Standard Version (©2001)
      “You shall keep my statutes. You shall not let your cattle breed with a different kind. You shall not sow your field with two kinds of seed, nor shall you wear a garment of cloth made of two kinds of material.

      PS; I do have some concerns about the ability to grow good healthy tomatoes today. I’ve had a lot of luck, all bad. A blight seems to take them over.

      • DaveH

        An equestrian is the person who rides the horse, Deer.

        • Deerinwater

          Well, Like I said David , they are very smart! ~ LOL!

  • LeePee0101

    I have recently been diagnosed with Celiacs disease, an autoimmune disease that causes my body to attack wheat, barley, rye and all forms of gluten and does not allow me to ingest nutrients. It causes discomfort, pain and fatigue. I thought it was in my head until the blood tests proved that my body was turning on itself. If I don’t develop stomach cancer, colon cancer or some other form of fatal cancer in the next few years…it will be a miracle.

    • deerinwater

      Bad news my friend, ~ wonder how that happened? any clues?

  • http://www.acalculatedresponse.com Michael Murray

    You all should move in together. You fight, whine and bitch at each other like a dysfunctional family

  • http://knightspyder.wordpress.com cedarridgefarmsinc

    Why would these “Thugs”(Monsanto) try to play God? God created us all (Humans) and what we needed for our bodies to live and stay alive, if He thought we needed GMO wouldn’t He have made it already?

  • Mario

    To Lizard Brain,
    I don’t mind if you bother to read ALL my coments on this post, but on my 3:56 am comment I challenged you to do something…
    So, what’s your answer – yes or no?…
    And make sure your answer is posted here, for everyone yo see…

    • Right Brain Thinker

      OOOH! “Mario” is ORDERING me to do as he says!!!! As in OR ELSE!!, “Mario”?.
      Will you drive out of your fantasy world on your go-kart and run me over if I don’t comply?

      I went back through the thread and did read the 10 or so comments you made between !:57 AM and 4:41 AM, and I must say I am impressed with their quality (actually the lack thereof). You show the potential to be a fourth stooge, although your vocabulary and grammar skills are far inferior to the others—-perhaps you will improve with time.

      Actually, I don’t believe you really exist—-you are just another one of DaveH’s multiple personalities that has some out of his closet to “chip in” with the name calling and stupidity—-Dave is probably feeling the heat of “overexposure” now that I’ve taken up the task of keeping everyone informed of the extent to which he monopolizes and “pollutes” the discourse.

      He has “invented” you to take some of the heat for him and has made you “uglier” than he is in order to distract us from him. There is one other possibility to consider—-anyone who spends the time between 2 and 5 AM on PLD may have vampire tendencies (DaveH does, at least in what he does when the “holy water of truth” is sprinkled on his inanities). We shall see if you do any more posting today now that the sun has come up—-I feel sure that this small sprinkling of the holy water of truth on you will get you smoking, screaming, and thrashing about.

      PS I know you didn’t read ALL my comments on this post, but merely looked for them and posted something irrelevant after them (just like DaveH—-Hmmmm?—-proof of my theory?) But if you DID read them, you would know that I have already answered your “challenge” way back in the thread, and it is posted THERE for everyone to see. So get off your lazy butt and find it. I’ll give you a hint—when You and DaveH are next in the dark corner of the closet talking to yourself, ask “him”—-he has already commented on it.

      • Mario

        You still didn’t answer. Yes or no? Are you willing to go on a diet of GMO food, three meals a day for two years just to prove your point?…Walk the talk, Lizard Brain…They didn’t teach you that on the barracks?…
        Otherwise, don’t try to foul anybody, antmore….

      • Right Brain Thinker

        Hate repeating myself, but it’s apparently necessary——–

        “I have already answered your “challenge” way back in the thread, and it is posted THERE for everyone to see. So get off your lazy butt and find it. I’ll give you a hint—when You and DaveH are next in the dark corner of the closet talking to yourself, ask “him”—-he has already commented on it”.

      • Mario

        Sure, all your postings are there for everyoane to see. And I hope some of the people can see, can use their brains too…and see YOU as what actually are!…
        Sorry Lizard Brain, time is a very expensive commodity, which never can be bought with money, and you just are not worth the expense!…
        So, I just said, I won’t bother to argue with you anymore.
        I think I heard this one somewhere in Eastern Europe: ” if an idiot who wouldn’t be proud of himself, he wouldn’t be idiot enough”….
        Bye…

  • figmo

    they modify our food to withstand roundup weed killer? Is that anything like agent orange that messed up so many of our troops in nam? of course our govt. will engage in plausable deniability to the bitter end like it did with agent orange and ptsd.

  • gfsomsel

    Let them ban GMO foods. All the more for us to eat—yum, yum. They can watch their citizens suffer for the effects of … starvation? Hey, what’s that bulge growing on the side of my head?

  • Dwight Mann

    The United States of Monsanto is killing us all.
    How much longer folks?

  • Martin

    Right brain thinker,man I’ve read a lot of these posts,from you and other individuals on here,and I’ve come to the conclusion that you are without a doubt one of the most ignorant,loud mouthed sons of bitches I’ve ever came across,you are nothing more than a playground bully,obviously you are at least college educated,but no more,the positions you take up against your attackers,are child like,you might as well cross your arms in front of your chest and proclaim that what ever we say bounces off you and sticks to us,you take no stand other than to keep repeating [prove it],and of course if they can’t produce overwhelming evidence in their favor then you win by default,I’ve grown tired of your kind long ago,I refuse to banter words with you,because from the looks of your recent posts you are nothing more than a professional debater,facts don’t matter to you any more,only winning an argument,so if you can figure out some way to turn this post to your favor then have at it,but that’s all you’ll get from me,I will not try to convince you to see things from my perspective,as I fear it is too late for you and your kind.So wallow in your denial a little longer,the truth is coming,will you be so blind then that you will not be able to see it,

  • Chris

    So much dissection about a subject that SHOULD be apparent……..man playing God is NEVER GOOD. We should all be screaming at our President and congressmen to get the crap OUT of our environment……..I’m sure being put there to kill: Flouride? What good? Flouridated water and toothpaste has NOT cut down on cavities. GMO foods…….WHY? You can’t improve on mother nature. These are just a couple……….but my latest pet peeve……eradication of the incandescent light bulb so now we are FORCED to buy bulbs with mercury in them………..MORE POISON!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    • macgyver1948

      Chris… Yes, we should be “screaming at our President and congressmen to get the crap OUT of our environment…… “, and many are all the time. But there are many others in government, along with corporate money pushing them, who want to remove regulations from corporations. When big money buys our representatives it is the interests of that big money the representatives work for, not us.

      I agree so many of the regulations need to be looked at and updated but without them we would lose so much faster as the corporations and their G-men, general term for Government and not only the FBI, work to lower corporate expenses and grant a free path to bottom line developing. All that matters to the corporations is lowering expenses (payroll is a huge expense and so is environmental protections) and bottom line building. We the people should stand up for ourselves more in defending regulations.

      Yes, your rap on “Flouride? What good? Flouridated water and toothpaste has NOT cut down on cavities. GMO foods…….WHY? You can’t improve on mother nature”. These are just a couple of my pet peeves too. But there are so many other reasons we need to regulate corporations and get the government to help protect us. For example, where are the protections from the FDA for our drugs as well as foods. And in just full labeling do we need help but there is so much more. Drugs seem to get approved more easily with higher levels of acceptability (to get on the coveted FDA Approval List).

      All we need to do is listen to drug commercials on TV to know that. “Ask your doctor for our drug to protect you from what ails you but pay no attention to the potentially debilitating, and in many cases killing, side effects but we have to tell you about them anyway”. We need regulations in so many areas that work to protect us and not only the bottoms lines of the corporations. Can you guess where the tests and trials were for the drugs if so many drugs are being removed from that coveted FDA Approval List in relatively few years because of the debilitations, or worse?

      “eradication of the incandescent light bulb so now we are FORCED to buy bulbs with mercury in them………..MORE POISON!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! “. Just more ways to help corporations make that all mighty buck. Who is protecting us chickens from the wolves with help like the government gives us?

  • Chris

    No one is protecting us and CERTAINLY “NOT” the FDA……….they don’t give a crap about ANYONE……..they’re in “everybody’s” pockets. All we can do is keep screaming and while some do, others don’t. The only other alternative is to vote out the crap and you know how hard THAT is.

    • macgyver1948

      Chris… You say “The only other alternative is to vote out the crap and you know how hard THAT is.”. You bet it is so hard if we live one the premise that “one vote one voice” works. It will never work for us as it is if we do not have enough money and clout to influence Government. We do need to get rid of those in office who are not representing us but instead are doing their thing for the very wealthy and the big corporations.

      We each cannot do it alone, that always gets proven. Maybe we who aren’t very wealthy or a big corporation need a huge organization such as AARP but for all citizens. The very wealthy and the Big Corporations have their representations already and we are losing because we cannot win against them with their government representations. GOP should mean for all of us and not just for those who have enough money and clot to buy and control representation.

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