Comments Subscribe to Personal Liberty News Feed Subscribe to Personal Liberty
 

Signs The “End Of America” Is Nearing

March 11, 2011 by  

Signs The “End Of America” Is Nearing

I keep getting subscriber emails asking me what good it is to buy stocks when the United States dollar will soon be destroyed, taking the value of most equities with it. This question is a better one now than it’s ever been in my lifetime.

I remember many years ago, in the 1980s and early 1990s, when I started investing on my own. Back then, I often read arguments by various gold bugs and libertarian-leaning economists about how the U.S. dollar was on a path to total destruction. Even then, I was often reminded that all fiat currencies meet the same fate and that the dollar would be no different.

Fast-forward a few years to 1997 when I started communicating that same message for a living. Though I remained more concerned with other things, I kept revisiting this message. I kept thinking the Fed’s actions would have dire financial consequences for all of us… but for about 10 years, nothing apocalyptic happened. Every time it looked like the end was finally nigh and the day of economic, political and financial reckoning was upon us, the Fed would ease, the market would rebound and away we went on another bullish tear.

But at long last, it seems as though we’ve finally arrived at the point of no return. Anyone who lends the U.S. government a penny at this point is simply suicidal.

And you don’t have to guess about this, either. Listen to the market. It’s trying hard to tell you something very important

More than once I’ve said late 2008 was the blow-off top of a multi-decade bull market in Treasury bonds. That’s still correct, as interest rates continue to make higher highs and higher lows. Treasury bond prices move opposite to interest rates. So they’re making lower highs and soon, I expect, even lower lows.

Thirty-year U.S. Treasury bonds were yielding as little as 3 percent in late 2008. Today, they’re yielding over 4.5 percent—an enormous move. If interest rates double in the next year or two, it won’t surprise me a bit.

http://images.dailywealth.com/images/Chart%20A%20TLT%281%29.GIF

Big moves down in U.S. Treasury bond prices aren’t supposed to happen. You’re not supposed to think of Treasury bonds as risky. They’re where you go when you’re afraid of risk.

It’s not just the Federal government in trouble. The iShares S&P National Municipal bond fund has collapsed. Every time it looks like it’s rebounding, it bounces to a lower step. Its recent 52-week low is 10 percent below its 52-week high. That’s an enormous move for municipal bonds.

That kind of drop isn’t supposed to happen to municipal bonds. All my life, muni bonds were the second safest investment in the world, next to U.S. Treasury debt. Now, they’re loaded with risk and everybody either knows it, or is starting to get wind of it.

http://images.dailywealth.com/images/20110114-chart-c.gif

Finally, after years of believing the collapse of the U.S. dollar, though inevitable, was apparently far in the future… it’s here.

The crisis so many people have thought and written about for so many years has finally arrived on our doorstep. It’s no longer appropriate to say we’re worried about the world our children or grandchildren will inherit. We need to be worried about ourselves.

Like any good demon, the destruction of the U.S. dollar has arrived with a smile on his face, in the form of an ebullient stock market. The S&P 500 has rallied 75 percent since early 2009.

Focused, as usual, on the rearview mirror, investors are way too bullish according to every stock market sentiment indicator I’ve seen. The American Association of Individual Investors Sentiment Survey, the Investors Intelligence survey of newsletters, Ned Davis Research’s Crowd Sentiment Poll… they all point in the same direction: The great horde of individual stock market dabblers is in a hypnotic trance, deliriously happy in its belief that stocks can and will rise to the moon. The Fed is selling pure B.S., and the herd is buying it.

At the risk of seeming callous or unconcerned for my fellow man (the poor sod), this is the stuff of which Opportunity (with a capital "O") is made. The first bet is one we’ve encouraged you to make dozens of times…

Gold, the anti-dollar, has been telling us for 10 straight years that the crisis is coming. Gold was around $252 an ounce in the summer of 1999. It’s now around $1,400. Gold is up fivefold against the U.S. dollar. That’s not a great statement of confidence in the world’s reserve currency. And it’s important that we continue to pay attention to it. It’s something you should notice—and something the government, the Fed, CNBC and Wall Street hope you don’t notice.

http://images.dailywealth.com/images/Chart%20C%20GOLD%281%29.GIF

Buy gold. Hold it. Caress it. Love it. Hide it. But don’t sell it.

With the (allegedly) safest bonds in the world crashing, stocks clearly overvalued, and gold near new all-time highs, it’s not hard to figure out what to do. Own gold and silver bullion. Own natural resource stocks. Hold plenty of cash and sell fairly valued and overvalued stocks.

The market is telling you tough times are here. Stick with my advice and you’ll protect yourself and even profit while others lose… and wonder what the heck is going on.

Good investing,

Dan Ferris
Editor, Extreme Value

PS: For more insight and actionable investment advice on protecting your wealth in a difficult market, please click here.

Dan Ferris

is the editor of The 12% Letter, an income-focused research advisory which looks for the market's best dividend-growth stocks. He is also the editor of Extreme Value, a monthly investment advisory which focuses on the safest stocks in the market: great businesses trading at steep discounts. As a result of his work in Extreme Value and The 12% Letter, Dan has been featured several times in Barron's, the Value Investing Letter, and numerous financial radio programs around the country.

Facebook Conversations

Join the Discussion:
View Comments to “Signs The “End Of America” Is Nearing”

Comment Policy: We encourage an open discussion with a wide range of viewpoints, even extreme ones, but we will not tolerate racism, profanity or slanderous comments toward the author(s) or comment participants. Make your case passionately, but civilly. Please don't stoop to name calling. We use filters for spam protection. If your comment does not appear, it is likely because it violates the above policy or contains links or language typical of spam. We reserve the right to remove comments at our discretion.

Is there news related to personal liberty happening in your area? Contact us at newstips@personalliberty.com

  • s c

    To me, the most evident sign that ‘America is ending’ is in the widespread belief that Americans can have anything they want as long as they support certain politicians. It’s never stated in plain English, but the concept is based in the idea that sponging off the rest of America is as good as life gets.
    Click those ruby slippers, worship Obummer and never forget that everyone else owes you a living and whatever you want just because you exist. It used to be called insanity. Now it’s called “basic human rights.”

    • Fredsworld

      AMEN Brother! Christians, prepare your selves with food, water, weapons, and the word of God! Everyone else, you better accept Jesus into your heart as your lord and savior before it’s too late!

      • Bert Cundle

        Radical…

        • http://Illinois'17th Old Henry

          Dear Bert:

          You will indeed find out about radical as you breath your last. How sad.

          • granny mae

            FREDS WORLD,

            Been prepared for years now and praying that we wouldn’t need it ! Doesn’t look good no matter how you look at it ! God Bless

      • TB

        Really!?! Seriously!?! You sound like a radical muslim. Are you a radical christian? What am I going to get in heaven if I accept Jesus. Some virgins? Eternal happiness? What’s your god offering? Last I checked, the christian god, as well as the muslim god, didn’t have a very good offer. I don’t remember what it was, but it was nothing I wanted or needed. Anyway, back to “reality”. We are transitioning to a one world economy, that’s it. For a while, the people on top(America) will be brought down some, and the people at the bottom will be brought up some. The rich will continue to get richer. That’s it!!! Blame, blame, blame, blah, blah, blah, blah. Every single person in America, look in the mirror, see that person in the mirror, that’s who will be responsible for the collapse of America IF it happens. Face your fears people! Stop letting your fears control you! America has seen times WAY, WAY worse than now. WAY WORSE!!! Anyone remember gas lines and inflation in the 70′s? People had to buy gas on certain days. Last name begins with A-M, you buy gas on Tuesday and Thursday, N-Z on Monday and Wednesday. Guess what, America didn’t end, it became the powerhouse of the world. The second wave of power is coming! The innovation and growth of this country are about to take off to all new heights!!! This is the opportunity of a lifetime!!! The end of our ignorance is not the same as the end of America, or the world!!! Get over yourselves. Stop investing in fear!!! INVEST IN AMERICA!!!

        • Don in Ohio

          TB, what are you smoking??????

          • TB

            I’m smoking a cheech and chong size blunt of AMERICAN OPPORTUNITY!!!

        • PMS

          How can I invest in America, I’m broke! Just about everyone else is getting my money.

          • TB

            I’m sorry to hear that, but you being broke is your own fault, not America’s!!! The same people that are taking your money have been taking my money! How did you handle your money in the past? 5 years ago I had been unemployed for 2 years, had 30k of credit card debt and was homeless. If it wasn’t for good friends and their couches, I would’ve been living under a bridge. I got a decent paying seasonal job(21 weeks out of the year), changed my lifestyle to living well below my means, paid off my debt and started saving. Now, 5 years later, I have the money to invest in America. I even bought a house, at the peak of the housing bubble, which is now worth 30% of the price I paid for it!! No problem, I bought a house I could easily afford. I WAS PREPARED!!! You obviously weren’t…Sorry, but it’s your own fault.

          • skip

            You are right – the Koch Brothers got the best part of it! And passed it on to buy the governorships and House of Representatives, and a few justices of the Supreme Court.

        • Lee

          I agree. But the only way America can spring back, is if we get rid of the IRS. We NEED the FairTax act! Business could BOOM! Without Big Brother looking over your shoulders, small business could come alive again. But first we need to get rid of the thugs at the top!

          • TB

            I like what you’re saying brother!!!

          • Greg

            Lee…I second the motion, get rid of all Thugs and IRS

        • JC

          TB says: Stop investing in fear!!! INVEST IN AMERICA!!!

          With What?
          We’ve been robbed blind by people hell bent on destroying the USA.
          Our only recourse is going to be survival skills and peace through superior numbers and firepower…and some prayer certainly can’t hurt.

          • TB

            With what? See my response to PMS. Sorry, but NOBODY, and I mean NOBODY, is hell bent on destoying America!! That’s absurd! If America falls so does all the wealth and power of the people “robbing” us, as well as, the economy of the entire world. Rich, powerful people will only be rich and powerful if society continues. The people destroying America are the stupid people that believe this country owes them more than the OPPORTUNITY to better their lives. It doesn’t!!! Offering opportunity, is what America does and it does it well! Even in this recession, the opportunities surrounding us all are limitless. What anyone does or doesn’t do with the opportunities is on them, NOT AMERICA!!! Also, I’m a gun owner, but I don’t pray. If I do decide to pray, since it can’t hurt, will it matter which god I pray to?

          • JC

            TB says:
            March 12, 2011 at 2:53 pm
            With what? See my response to PMS. Sorry, but NOBODY, and I mean NOBODY, is hell bent on destoying America!! That’s absurd! If America falls so does all the wealth and power of the people “robbing” us
            —————————————————————-

            Not so…not so, at all!
            They want America destroyed so they it can be amalgamated under a “Global” government. You think they want wealth? they HAVE wealth…they want Power. They want control. And America is standing in the way of that.
            Think…”bigger”

          • Karolyn

            JC – You sound more like you’re surrendering if your only recourse is survival!

          • TB

            JC, Sorry, but they already have the power too. They do want to keep it though, as well as the money. America is not getting in the way of the one world government. It’s leading the way!!! The transition is happening right now as I type this and has been for my whole life. One world government CAN NOT and WILL NOT destroy America. If it happens, America’s fear and ignorance will be leading the way to destruction. Whether one world government is good or bad will be determined by the future, because it’s already here. Not being able to see through the propaganda and old ways of thinking is thinking “small”. I’m sorry but what you’re saying is not thinking “BIGGER”. It’s thinking the same ol’ way. Again, from my first post, LOOK IN THE MIRROR!!! We are all guilty of this crime. The sooner everyone starts blaming themselves instead of the republicans, democrats, liberals, conservatives, muslims, christians, gays, rich, poor, or whoever they blame, the sooner this will be over and back on track. Oh, I almost forgot the illegals, it’s the 20 million dirt poor illegals longing for American opportunity that are causing the problem!!!

          • JC

            The only way to stop it is to remove the institutions of power through which they operate, starting with the Federal Reserve and IRS.
            It’s about more than “my” survival Karolyn It’s about the Nation’s survival.

        • Dave

          YOU are truly blind. Seriously.

          • TB

            A well trained blind person can see better than a person with sight.

          • Cawmun Cents

            Yes you too can be trained properly…Just head on over to the Ivy League Academics Home for Disturbed Progressive Liberals,(what used to be known as the White House)and you too can be trained in the post modern Progressiveism.I always wondered how they can train you in a form of mental diseease,but apparently they are adept at it.So get on over to the Ivy League Academics Home for Disturbed Progressive Liberals and get your free education today!

          • TB

            Cawmun Cents, I’m not sure I understand what you’re getting at? Are you trying to put me in with some group of people you call progressive liberals? What is a progressive liberal?

          • JC

            This is very interesting … Why would they do this ???

            Little by little the subtle changes come until one day we will wake up and be the United Socialist States of America.

            2012 is just around the corner so get and stay engaged as if our nation depended on it because it does!!!!!

            U.S. Department of Justice ditches red, white, and blue stars and stripes.

            Well, how interesting! It seems the U.S. Department of Justice has changed its web site.

            Gone are the colorful red, white, and blue U.S. Flag decorations on the page,

            Replaced by stark black and white.

            And at the top of the page, is a rather interesting quote:

            “The common law is the will of mankind, issuing from the life of the people.”

            Catchy, huh? Just one tiny little (obviously too small to be relevant ) point –

            the quote is from C. Wilfred Jenks, who in the 1930′s was a leading proponent of the “international law” movement, which had as its goal to impose a global common law and which backed ‘global workers’ rights.’

            Call it Marxism, call it Progressivism, call it Socialism — under any of those names, it definitely makes the DOJ look corrupt in their new website with Marxist accessories to match.

            See for yourself: http ://www.justice.gov/

            How very interesting that ‘they’ couldn’t find a nice quote from one of our Founders.

            People, we have lost our Republic. This is an example of the slow, methodical misuse of power our current government is doing as they lead us to socialism, and destroying our republic as we have known it.

            Get ready for 2012! – VOTE THE SOCIALIST OUT!!!

            *******************************************************

            Bring back the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA——

        • Karolyn

          BRAVO! Whining and complaining only brings more whining and complaining. We create our own lives. ABC World News has been doing a series on Made in America. There is still much made in America that we can invest in. The Chinese are clamoring for Made in America. I mentioned this a while back, and everybody pooh-poohed the idea, but it’s true. China’s economy is growing, and they will be wanting more and more from us. Instead of pick, pick, picking on everything that’s wrong, start focusing on what’s right; and go out and buy Made in America! You CAN find it!

          • http://?? Joe H.

            karolyn,
            OK, you said it now back it up and name ten products that you use each week that are made in the USA!

          • libertytrain

            I don’t recall anyone pooh-poohing the idea. But did you not suggest making beaded jewelry to sell them? Now that kind of thing will be tough without a little business savvy.

      • Rusty

        Amen.

    • BigBadJohn

      To me, the most evident sign that ‘America is ending’ is in the widespread belief that Americans can have anything they want as long as they support certain politicians.
      ****************

      Unfortunately that is a very true statement, 2000-2008 proved that!
      If you had enough money you could buy your own legislation – period.
      So the ultra wealthy got their bailouts AND got to keep their bonuses. While the rest of America was handed the bill. That bill is about to come due, but the brunt of this happened way before our current president.

      Simple case in point, one the biggest contributors to our current fiscal problems was Bush’s tax cut. But what happened when is was set to expire? It was extended, because someone had enough money to buy the required votes.

      • http://www.brtmt.com/Images/index1.jpg Vigilant

        Just what I expected from an ignorant leftie. We’re on a precipice looking into the abyss, and his priority is posting a bitter, blind screed against GWB!

        Fine, keep doing that to the exclusion of preparing yourself for the imminent meltdown, but don’t come around with your hand out when the calamity hits. As you starve at the hands of your own lack of foresight, I’m sure you’ll take a great comfort in blaming Bush with your last breath.

        • BigBadJohn

          Vigalant,

          Because you think in terms of black and white – YOU are the problem!

          The GOP was responsible for about seven billion of the 10 billion national debt we had up until 2008.
          They are not going to save you or even TRY to balance the budget.
          Sorry but it is not as simple as
          republican – good
          democrat – bad.
          I realize that is all your simple mind can compute – I feel sorry for you….

          • BigBadJohn

            correction 7 TRILLION of 10 TRILLION

          • http://www.brtmt.com/Images/index1.jpg Vigilant

            Simpleton, you’re name is “BigBadJohn.”

            I’m neither Dem or Repub. Talk about black and white! LOL!

          • http://Illinois'17th Old Henry

            BigBadJohn:

            The American people were up in arms about the Republican spending, and they paid the price in November 2006 and November 2008. And they should have. I screamed for most of Bush’s tenure about his spending.

            The Dems promised to cut spending, and we foolishly believed them, and then put the peddle to the metal as they wer in charge for the last two years of Bush.

            The answer? Save us all. Vote Ron Paul.

          • grannymae

            BigBadJohn,

            The point at this time is not how we got here because we all know it had to do with most every politician we have had for the past 90 years and looking back and trying to lay blame doesn’t seem to have changed our course on the road to this point. Now that you seem to know how we got here and who put us here pray tell us how do we get out of here? Will blaming all the Republicans or all the Democrats do us any good? I want to know not from where we came because I already know that, what I want to know is do you have the answer to how we get out of here? If you have no logical plan for the future then shut the heck up about the past because we already know the past. We have all lived it. If rehashing it would help our position we would darn sure be well out of here but it doesn’t. So unless you can come up with a plan for the future that will help, please quit laying blame from the past! It doesn’t help.

          • BigBadJohn

            Old Henry,
            Through most of Clinton’s administration and all of Bush’s I was a registered Libertarian. Sure I have some issues with the libertarians also, but I still agree more than disagree with them. The two primary things I agree with are that the USA should not be the worlds police force, and we need to balance the budget – whatever it takes.

            In 2000 I voted for Bush but because of his reckless spending and blatant corruption I voted Democratic in 2004,6 and 8 just to get rid of that corrupt regime. The problem I have with the democrats now is that they learned too well from the republicans how easy it is to empty the treasury into their own pockets and are now doing the same!

            I’ve always said that the government just works better when it is not completely controlled by one party.

          • Steve

            BBJ,

            What’s the difference who is responsible for it? The bottom line is…IT’S…TIME…TO…FIX…IT….get it? Stop wasting time blaming because they and we are all responsible for it AND now..it’s…time…to…fix…it. Simple right? 14 TRILLION+ in debt and we have to blame all of us. So maybe you have some good ideas on what to do about it, now that you can stop blaming and start being constructive about it.

          • http://?? Joe H.

            BBJ,
            In another area, I believe you said that tax cuts can’t do any good without spending cuts. Well if that’s true, then quit your B!TCHIN, and start pushin your reps to start some meaningful cutting!!! But then, I guess that wouldn’t be the prog way……!

      • Al Sieber

        BigBad, Bush’s tax cuts helped my business big time and allowed me to buy more equipment that I needed and hire extra people, I don’t understand your reasoning.

        • http://www.brtmt.com/Images/index1.jpg Vigilant

          Al,

          The left wingers have a congenital defect that blocks the ability to reason. It’s all about EMOTION, don’t you know…

          • Patty

            Music please : Feelings, nothing more than feelings,….Feelings, wo-o-o feelings, wo-o-o,…. :)

          • http://www.brtmt.com/Images/index1.jpg Vigilant

            LOL!

        • http://Illinois'17th Old Henry

          BigBadJohn:

          Forgot to correct you on on point. Tax cuts DO NOT cause deficits. SPENDING causes deficits.

          Bush inherited a recession from dick-for=brains. He fixed it with tax cuts. IT’S NOT THEIR MONEY.

          • BigBadJohn

            Correction
            Tax cuts DO cause deficits – IF NOT ACCOMPANIED BY CUTS OF THE SAME MAGNITUDE.

            Tell me could you afford to live exactly like you do now if you took a 50% pay cut? No you would have to adjust your spending.
            That was the problem, revenues went down and spending went up so what happened to the debt?

            There are two frames of thought on stimulating the economy – both damage the national debt. Tax cuts with no spending cuts does the SAME EXACT THING as stimulus spending with no new taxes.
            You are still spending more than you are taking in.

            Obama inherited a recession from Sh_t-for=brains. He is trying to fix it with spending increases. IT’S THE SAME THING as trying to fix it with tax cuts.

            The biggest difference between the two, everyone hates paying taxes so cutting taxes gains you popularity at the voting both.

            The budget will NEVER be balanced unless we see BOTH spending cuts and tax increases.

          • Vicki

            BigBadJohn says:
            “Correction
            Tax cuts DO cause deficits – IF NOT ACCOMPANIED BY CUTS OF THE SAME MAGNITUDE.”

            Unfortunately BBJ spent too much time studying Democrats and not enough studying economics. Tax cuts increase tax revenue. Therefor the deficits MUST come from INCREASED spending.

            http://www.heritage.org/research/reports/2003/08/the-historical-lessons-of-lower-tax-rates (<— for you liberals out there. This little blue link is called a cite. It is evidence or proof of my assertion. Try them sometime. we will not harass you for having no facts as often.)

            The solution, under BBJ's feelings and under the actual facts, is the same.

            STOP SPENDING MONEY YOU DON'T HAVE.

          • Vicki

            But wait. There’s more:

            “…..no Congress has voted to raise significant sums of new tax revenues since 1996. Indeed, the fundamental tax policy of this country until now has been to reduce tax burdens. This policy has largely been driven by a bipartisan understanding that lower tax rates support stronger economic growth. Certainly, that view animated the debates over the 2001 and 2003 tax legislation, each of which resulted in lower, though temporary, tax rates and tax liabilities. While the jury is still out on the overall economic effects of Bush-era tax relief, these two changes to tax policy, particularly the 2003 legislation, likely boosted economic activity and strengthened the macro economy.”

            http://www.heritage.org/research/reports/2010/09/obama-tax-hikes-the-economic-and-fiscal-effects (<— Liberals. There is that little blue text again. It's called a cite. Use them or loose what little credibility you have left. For those of you that have any left.)

          • http://Illinois'17th Old Henry

            BBJ:

            Reagan cut taxes at the start of his first term. Revnue to the treasury almost doubled. However, by his own admission he was not hard enough on the dems in keeping the spending down. They saw the money flowing in and went nuts.

            The recession Little Barry inherited has its roots in the Carter years when he and the dems dreamed up that hill billy housing so that people who could not afford a house got one anyway.

            I saw a video of Bush speaking in early ’01 saying we must end the policy or it will ruin our economy. He was villified by the press and the dems. Bawney and half of the waitress sndwich Dodd went nuts.

            I agree Bush and the Repubs spent too much and that Part D crap should have been shoved up their a$$.

            In my fuzzy paranoid brain I lean toward the crash as being engineered by Soros to ensure his boy got to where he wanted him.

            Our budget woes are exactly where Obummer and his boss Soros want them.

          • BigBadJohn

            Tax cuts lets start with Reagan, When he proposed the idea that tax cut will generate revenue – even his VP GH Bush called it VooDoo economics.

            The under lying premise is that for every dollar put into the economy, it gets circulated 12 times and taxed on each cycle so revenues go up.
            Does that work? Yes the same exact way that spending increases work. You put money into the economy and it gets used over and over again. Both do the same thing and have the same exact effect on the national debt – it goes up. I looked at the links supplied and they talk about revenues going up, spending does the same exact thing.

            What happened when Reagan cut taxes? He tripled the national debt.
            What happened when Bush cut taxes? He doubled the national debt.
            Show me just one year where taxes were cut and the national debt went down – ain’t gonna happen.

            My only argument is that spending and tax cuts do exactly the same thing. They both stimulate the economy and run up the national debt at the same time.

          • http://Illinois'17th Old Henry

            It is a fact that the tax cuts Reagan ngotiatited with Congress nearly doubled the cash flow into the treasury.

            The problem was that the Democrat congress saw the money coming in and rather than pay down the debt they doubled down on their spending.

            We learned in the early 90s about Congress’ dirty little secret called Base Line Budgeting. They figure on a 10% increase every year regardless. That was why when Reagan was accussed of “cutting” he was not. He was merely cutting back on Congresses automatic increases. I cannot recall anything that had a smaller budget than the previous year.

          • Vicki

            BigBadJohn writes:
            “What happened when Reagan cut taxes? He tripled the national debt.
            What happened when Bush cut taxes? He doubled the national debt.”

            Well, Actually the DEMOCRATS doubled the national debt. They were in charge of the House during the Reagan years. None the less your assertion actually proves the point. Cut taxes and revenue goes up. A lot. Use that revenue to pay down the national debt and it gets smaller. Use that revenue to buy new goodies and the national debt gets larger. Simple math.

            Its the SPENDING that makes the debt larger.

            STOP SPENDING WHAT YOU DON’T HAVE

        • Al Sieber

          B.B.John, the tax breaks also allowed to create more jobs, because I’m in mining it allowed me more tax rite offs.

      • s c

        BBJ, you mentioned something that amounts to a curse upon America. Obummer’s use of incredibly expensive and wasteful bailouts is one of his ways to buy votes.
        Has Obummer done one damned thing about fixing America’s infrastructure? How about those ‘shovel-ready’ jobs that he held up as a panacea when he was campaigning?
        When you dare to talk about an Obummer ‘bailout,’ say union slush funds in the same breath, bubba.
        Your White House god is a false god, dude.
        It’s time for you to abandon that cess pool church and open your eyes. Your children, your grandkids and their grandkids are going to PAY for your absolute faith in a false god. You sure can pick ‘em.

        • Eddie47d

          There are shovel ready jobs out there. Open your eyes SC and see the road construction going on. There are some infrastructure projects happening but guess who keeps voting against infrastructure. If you guess Republican/Tea Party you get the prize. We all know there is an economic crises going on but you can’t keep opening mouth and inserting stupid.

          • Bitter Libertarian

            Road Construction typically does not “create” any new jobs in the “create what was never there before way”, they really only fill positions that are vacant due to seasonal layoff’s.

            Call it what you want but the TRUTH is that any job claimed new on Highway construction, is a farce. On top of that most of the big companies that are hired are very big and only hire as needed. This doesnt create long term sustained wealth, or a sustained economy. They are simply reminicent of the WPA.

            Temporary fix to a permanent problem, does not, qualify as a fix.

          • Average Joe

            Eddie,
            Government creates only two things….beauracracy and paperwork. They cannot produce jobs..only private industry can create jobs…period.The only way that the government could “create” any jobs, would be to make us all Federal employees….however, in order to pay us, they would have to collect taxes from us…in order to pay us…in other words, we would be paying ourselves with our own money….Why do we need them as a middleman of our own prosperity? On the other hand….they do need us …to pay themselves and give themselves lots of perks that you and I cannot afford (and they do that very well already)….
            Now for a recap…Private industry creates jobs….government creates boondoggles and steals from it’s employers….US….end of story.

          • grannymae

            Eddie47d,

            Let me tell you about the jobs created by the infrastructer needs here where I live ! Lots of road repairs needed but they are being done not by men that have been laid off and needing a job, oh no, they are being done by prisoners and the job they are doing sucks! It will all have to be redone in another year because it wasn’t done right in the first place. The work that is being done right , is being done by companies that have bid on the jobs from sometimes hundreds of miles away and they have their own workers and don’t need to hire new help. This is a way for them to keep their help they already have, not hire new help. I understand their motives and it is fine to keep those that are already working. in the job field, but to think that this is helping put people to work is rediculous. No one from my area has been hired on to new jobs. Even the chicken processing companies are bussing in prisoners! Go figure, no, go rob a bank and they will give you a roof over your head cloths on your back , food in your mouth and even give you a job! Plus your family will qualify for government housing and medical coverage, eye , dental, and food stamps. From where I sit Obama has no clue !

          • http://?? Joe H.

            eddie,
            OK, let’s talk about those highway jobs. 130 million dollars for SIGNS on construction projects???? We have one of those projects going here and about three years ago, most of the fence along the project was replaced. Guess what is in the process of being replaced as I type?? YUP, the fence!!! About half of these road work projects are MAKE-WORK jobs!!! The government makes money that they don’t have to spend available and every little burg in the US fights tooth and nail for it to see who can spend the most of it!! For what?? The way gas prices are going, there won’t be any cars nor trucks on the roads!!!

          • Eddie47d

            Good grief some of you have fallen off of the banana wagon. That is you Joe,Joe and Bitter. SC said there weren’t any shovel ready jobs or infrastructure projects. I have seen those with my own eyes . She lied again and I called her out on it. You may have different circumstances in your states but that doesn’t mean they are not out there and many more are needed.I know you are all trying to protect your turf (right wing point of view) but my butt is getting sore; so lay off of the gang banging and accept the reality of someone elses facts.

          • http://?? Joe H.

            eddie,
            If your butt is sore, it’s your fault, I DON’T SWING THAT WAY!!!! I don’t think the others you mention do either!!

          • Eddie47d

            Then stop acting like it Joe Blow!

          • JC

            As always, eddie’s solutions are in “More Government”.
            As Americans go eddie…you’d have been more at home in eastern Europe in the 50′s.

          • Cawmun Cents

            The only shovel ready projects out there come from mortuaries… Morticians…..Everything else has bureaucracy standing in its way….keeping it from being”shovel ready”.

          • http://?? Joe H.

            eddie,
            OOHHH how original!! and you hurt me right to the heart. But wait, that can’t be, you progs all say the conservatives are heartless!! YOU are the one that should have the handle of BOOHOO as you are always crying here!!! Poor little proggie baby!!!!

          • Eddie47d

            You’ve flipped your lid Joe. Almost 100% of our road systems in America come from shovel ready jobs. Whether it is government workers or private contractors building that road or bridge you drive on the money for those projects come from taxpayers who use those roads.Every American uses our road system but there are those like you who aren’t willing to pay for them. You Joe are worse than a welfare rat for you want something for nothing.

          • http://?? Joe H.

            eddie,
            I would bet I pay more in taxes each and every year than you do!!! Hell My wife pats more than you do!!! course that isn’t too hard seeing that you are one of those collecting welfare!!!

        • BigBadJohn

          SC – WAAAAYY off base – by no stretch of the imagination do I think Obama is doing a good job. But open your eyes for once, this mess was caused way before he took office. Bush and the republicans ran the deficit up by 800 billion – not counting the bail outs. 400 billion of that was in tax cuts that we could not afford. You cannot cut taxes without also cutting spending!!! But what does the “NEW GOP” promise, 100 billion in cuts. That simply is peeing into the wind.

          As Vigalant said, we are standing looking over the precipice. The first thing we need to do is take a couple of steps back. I would propose going back to before Bush drove us to this point. Yes including everything THIS administration has done.

          If we are ever going to get out of this mess, we need to start by turning the clock back, cut military spending, end our two wars, let Bush’s tax cut expire, cut back the size of government starting with TSA and homeland security, cut Obama’s stimulus starting with his dream of high speed railways and healthcare.

          I just get sick and tired of everyone ignoring the fact that this started way before Obama and trying to put the blame on him. Let me remind you – we now have a republican congress.

          • http://www.brtmt.com/Images/index1.jpg Vigilant

            “If we are ever going to get out of this mess, we need to start by turning the clock back, cut military spending, end our two wars, let Bush’s tax cut expire, cut back the size of government starting with TSA and homeland security, cut Obama’s stimulus starting with his dream of high speed railways and healthcare.”

            Well. we find common ground on ALMOST evrything! Increasing taxes on the rich is a formula for disaster. Other than that, we agree.

            “I just get sick and tired of everyone ignoring the fact that this started way before Obama and trying to put the blame on him. Let me remind you – we now have a republican congress.”

            …and a Democrat Senate. No one is so simplistic as to blame Obama for the mess he inherited, he is being blamed for taking a 180 degree approach to solve it by making things much worse, and at breakneck speed.

            Bush’s fatal flaw was mouthing the words of conservatism while acting out on the basis of NeoCon or liberal policies, both wrong. One of the FEW fiscally conservative things he did was to keep taxes lower for the people who drive the engine of prosperity. Had he matched that with a fervent commitment to reduce spending, we might have been much better off now. And his bailouts were exceptionally ill-advised.

          • s c

            B, The Anointed One is making a bad situation worse. WHAT was it that god’s gift to politics from
            Chicago did for America when he had a majority in the Senate and the House? When you make things WORSE, that makes you an obvious LIABILITY.
            I don’t expect ‘Republicans’ in Congress to do everything right. However, I know from experience that the only solution ‘Democrats’ have had since LBJ (and going back to FDR) is to spend, spend, SPEND.
            We are broke, broke, BROKE, and that false god in the White House will enslave America if he can. His camp-followers in Wisconsin should be horse-whipped and their names published in every newspaper in that state.
            At the moment, we couldn’t do any worse if a name was picked out of a phone book at random and that man or woman was ‘volunteered’ to be the new president (just after Obummer was outsourced, of course).

          • BigBadJohn

            vigalant,

            “Well. we find common ground on ALMOST evrything! Increasing taxes on the rich is a formula for disaster. Other than that, we agree.”

            Believe me I pay way too much tax now, I do not want to pay anymore. So i have been trying to structure my finances to take full advantage of Bush’s tax cuts. But I still think that taxing dividends at a much smaller percentage than income is not fair – it is still income.

            I have said it before – flat tax – no deductions for anything, first 30k of everyone’s income is tax free and then flat rate for everyone.
            Just think we could eliminate over 50% of the irs employees, close a bunch of their building etc, the savings alone would be huge.

          • Vicki

            BigBadJohn writes:
            “I have said it before – flat tax – no deductions for anything, first 30k of everyone’s income is tax free and then flat rate for everyone.
            Just think we could eliminate over 50% of the irs employees, close a bunch of their building etc, the savings alone would be huge.”

            That is something most of us MIGHT consider AFTER you tell the whole truth. What rate? I think 1% should be just fine. Oh and pass a law that makes it impossible for Congress to borrow money. Whatever they take in with that 1% is what they are allowed to budget and spend.

          • BigBadJohn

            Vicki
            That is something most of us MIGHT consider AFTER you tell the whole truth. What rate?
            ****************
            Well since I already pay the max 36%, anything less than that is fine with me :-). But I think 10-15% sounds reasonable, but at that rate we will have to cut military spending and entitlements radically..

            ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
            I think 1% should be just fine. Oh and pass a law that makes it impossible for Congress to borrow money. Whatever they take in with that 1% is what they are allowed to budget and spend.
            **************

            I agree 100%. But also think that all tax increases, and pay raises for politicians, should be decided by the electorate.

          • http://Illinois'17th Old Henry

            BBJ:

            And Boehner has already weasled the 100 billion down to 61 billion. I have written my TEA Party congressman and raised Cain. They need a 50% across the board cut in all budgets – starting with the White House and Congress. Most cabinet positins should be ELIMINATED with particular focus on Bushies facsist Homeland “Security” run by that AZ dyke.

          • Robert S

            Yes we do need high speed railways to the Gulag.

          • Robert S

            Yes and Ike was responsible for the bombing of Dresden Germany and the deaths of hundreds of thousands of civilians.

          • Cawmun Cents

            Yes…more finger pointing from a leftist who thinks he has a clue as to the origins of the debt in this nation…..havent we all been down this road now for the _____teenth time?You will never educate those with blinders on folks,just wont happen.The God of this world has blinded this man and he will not see no matter what you say.Argue with a brick…you will get a more intelligible doctrine from it.

        • BigBadJohn

          SC I agree with you about bailouts – who started them?

          U.S. President George W. Bush, saying “our entire economy is in danger,” urged Congress to approve his administration’s $700 billion bailout proposal.

          “We’re in the midst of a serious financial crisis, and the federal government is responding with decisive actions,” Bush said in a televised address Wednesday night from the White House.

          • Dale on the left coast

            Cast your mind back Bigbad . . . they paid the 700 Billion back in 09 . . . but, rather than follow the bailout law as it was written and put the 700 B on the debt . . . Obummer and his crowd SPENT IT!!!
            What caused the meltdown? What was in the derivitives that the Wall Street guys were selling? Where did they come from? Who created the mess???
            Answers: Housing market. Bad Mortgages. From Fannie/Freddie. Congress . . . 1998 Community Reinvestment Act.
            And Bigbad . . . Obummer in a little over 2 years has outspent every president in US history.

          • Vicki

            So tell me BigBadJohn. Why should we blame Bush for the bailouts? Last I checked it is still the House that has to vote on these things. Democrats could easily have stopped the bailouts. They had a majority. Then with a super majority and a filibuster proof senate did democrats cut back on all those evil bush policies? No. They double downed on most of them and even spent the money that came back from Bush’s bailouts.

            No need to blame republicans or bush. Democrats are doing quite more than enough on their own.

      • Patriot

        This has been going on for over 90 years, read your history! We need to all stick together, this is not Bush’s fault, he unfortunately did nothing to help us or improve our situation. If we make it to the next election hear the voices of concern and vote to keep your Liberty and Freedoms, which means stay true to the Constitution and your faith. In the meantime, make plans to save your family!

        • Bitter Libertarian

          Its Our problem-let it be OUR solution!

        • BigBadJohn

          Patriot I agree it has been going on for a long time, but it came to a head when Nixon took us off of the gold standard so we could print our way out of debt.
          Then it was amplified when Reagan spent three times more than all previous presidents combined.
          Then on top of that Bush spent two times the amount of all previous president combined.
          Now the current president will spend two times what all previous presidents spent in just 5 years.

          It’s time for the American public to stand up and say ENOUGH. The problem is we only have two parties and neither one of them are willing to make the tough choices.

          • grannymae

            BigBadJohn,

            Guess what ? I agree with everything you just said! Must be I took what you said before the wrong way, I don’t know. I guess I am so sick and tired of all the talk about the past that I just go off on it ! It is time that everyone involved start working together but I can see that is never going to happen. Even Obama can’t stop laying blame ! Instead of encouraging everyone to work together he will slip a little zinger in there to zap his competition. He encourages dissent between his countrymen at every chance he gets. He takes sides instead of staying neutral and working for the common good. This is not what we need for this point in time.

          • http://?? Joe H.

            BBJ,
            He isn’t gonna have 5 years, just four!!! He has already spent more than all presidents before him combined in about THREE years!!

          • Vicki

            BigBadJohn. We have MORE than 2 parties. We have at least 3 viable ones. However as long as people vote for the lessor of 2 evils instead of the obvious good (www.lp.org) we will get………………..Evil.

            100+ years of USA History proves this point.

          • Tom Anderson

            BBJ,

            Thank you, I appreciate your clear, concise and erudite analysis of this mess that we are in.

            As you point out, there is no significant difference between the two parties. The poor fools that are led astray by that notion deserve our deepest sympathy.

            As I recall, it was DeGaulle who saw thru our paper (currency) mask. He was exchanging his US Dollars for REAL GOLD at a furious pace at the FIXED price when Nixon’s advisors told Nixon that the “jig was up”. And Nixon, in the morning, unilaterally took us off the GOLD STANDARD – I remember THAT morning clearly as a seminole point in the decline in our empire. Most of our present financial messes would have been prevented if we had the fiscal constraint that a GOLD STANDARD imposes.

            For all of these Obama-hater rants, I believe that the KEY cause of our decline has been the massive funding of the MIC which is consistently supported by BOTH parties – no congressman (except Ron Paul) has the gonads to starve the MIC. Ike would ONLY even raise the warning about the MIC at the VERY END OF HIS PRESIDENCY – it had THAT much power even back then. And, every year it just gobbles up more and more. Rumsfeld lost a couple $ TRILLON somewhere in the Pentagon?

            I believe that our MIC expenditures are being vastly underreported by the guvmint. Did you know that the Guvmint does NOT include Veteran Affair costs into the defense budget?? TRUE!

            When you have 60% of your guvmint’s wealth going to blow up sand half way around the world and the rest to pay interest on the money needed to blow up that sand … well, I think you get my point.

            Remember when a cost analysis suggested that it cost about $100K to kill each Viet Cong? I bet the COST-PER-KILL ratio is even higher now in Afghan. Decline-of-Empiresville, here we come.

            Why are the Chinese funding our war in Afghan? We certainly are NOT paying for it? (not yet anyway)

          • http://Illinois'17th Old Henry

            Tom:

            “if we had the fiscal constraint that a GOLD STANDARD imposes.”

            Therein lies the cruxt of the whole mess. They did not want any fiscal restraints. All our statesmen died early in the 19th century.

            That is the one thing about democracy. You get the kind of government you deserve.

      • PiggySue

        You are right, John! Disregard these republican rednecks, for they just don’t know any better. Their very own destructive policies are destroying America as we speak. But no, these clowns are still trying to blame others. If Tax Cuts are so good, why the economy is tanking? Especially Bush Jr’s Tax Cuts: Why didn’t they prevent the current financial crisis, you Republican rednecks?

        • grannymae

          PiggySue,
          I can see you are simply a shi- stirrer! Idiot !

        • Dale on the left coast

          The economy is tanking . . . cause no one will invest when they don’t know what hair-brained thing the “One” will do next.
          Might have something to do with the runaway spending . . . and printing 5 Billions dollars of funny-money every day.

          • http://?? Joe H.

            Dale,
            Just think, he could be printing it as fast as we are mounting debt daily!!!

        • Vicki

          piggysue writes:
          “why the economy is tanking?”

          Lets start here.
          http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lr1M1T2Y314

        • Al Sieber

          Miss Piggy, you need to do more research on the subject. oh yeah, proud to be a “redneck”.

        • JC

          Get back out to the sty Sue…you’re too simple for this site.

        • PiggySue

          Well, you rednecks couldn’t answer my questions in your own words. You see you people got duped into believing and supporting their destructive policies, esp. tax cuts mantra, starting with your devilish Reagan. All these destructive messes started with Reagan! So how tax cuts over the years turning out for you and the rest of us? The common folks got nothing much(just poorer now) but the rich got to become Super rich(the ones you all helped to enrich and yet impoverish your own selves!) Do you think it’s smart for all these years? You see Tax Cuts did nothing to improve your well being for the common folks; they only enrich the Rich elites and corporations; they led only to persistent fiscal deficits and increasing national debts; which brought us to the end game now, economically. We will never get out of this one, folks!

      • Don in Ohio

        BigBadJohn,
        Since you thing taxes are good, how about sending a few thousand $$ to pay mine.
        Oh, I but you don’t work, so you don’t have to pay any.
        Anyway, the “tax the rich” dopes like you dumb.
        I’d much rather have the rich spending their money on most anything than giving it to the Government to give to freeloaders.

        • PiggySue

          You are so so stupid unless you are one of the super rich. The marginal tax rate should go back up to somewhere between 70-90%, and you’ll all see the nation will become prosperous again, as it used to be during 50′s, 60′s, etc.

    • Aix Sponsa

      It is deeper than that. The great liberal social experiment of the 60s has finally come to fruition. The 2nd and 3rd generation “something for nothings”….. that is, the “actions have no consequences generations”, “it’s not my fault” generations, have foisted their fate upon everyone.

      Was it JFK who said that it takes at least 10 years to destroy an economy, and at least 10 to correct it?

      The Japanese have a philosophy of concentrating on “fixing the problem” rather than wasting time trying to “place the blame”.

      America should learn something from them.

    • http://Illinois'17th Old Henry

      SC:

      That was very well put, and thank you for saying it. It’ll drive Eddie crazy.

      We rail about all the self-serving carreer politicians, but it all boils down to the self-serving spoiled brat voters.

      Hopefully the resounding thunder on November 2, 2010 was made by the collective elecorate pulling their collective heads out of their you-know-what.

    • flybye

      S C You are 100% right, I can not add a thing to your statement .

  • Martin Gorelick
  • TIME

    I see it this way of what is in line with SC as well with the blog’s author.
    The Youth are the future, if they have “ZERO” Drive what do we really have for a future?

    • Al Sieber

      We don’t TIME,most of these kids don’t have the drive, and most can’t spell or read, and don’t want to work.

      • grannymae

        Al Sieber,

        I agree but then I have to ask myself, who do we blame for that? Ourselves ! We are the ones responsible for our children. If we have left the education of our children to the public school system than we have no-one to blame but ourselves. They can teach reading, writing and arithmetic, but when it comes to honor , integrety, and work ethic and morals, that is our responsibility not the schools. When left to the schools and the teachers you see what we are left with! In our elementary school we have a couple teachers that claim to be witch’s and boy don’t you think their ideas aren’t showing up in the little ones! Can’t fire them because they have a strong union backing ! Most people have been taught their morals by parents or peers that have had a religous background, but that has gone by the wayside today and so you get what you permit ! Can’t completely blame the young because they learned it from the adults in their lives, not just their family but their day care and schools ! We have just not paid attention to it. We have to take the blame and do something about it. My grandson is in the eigth grade and came home at voting time and told how one of his teachers told them that it would be best for them when they grew up to just not vote !???? Did I let that ride? Not on your life ! I took my handicaped self down to that school and had a conference with the principal, the dean, the teacher, my grandson and myself. I can guarentee you that, such a policy will not be taught in that school again ! Problem is not many parents are willing to take the time to do such a thing. They don’t want to take the time off of work. Although I understand that thought I also know that there comes a time when when we all must take the time off, in this case 1 hour, to have a hand in how our children are taught and what they are taught. No I don’t feel that we can blame the children for their laziness and lack of interrest, the balme I feel lies within ourselves !

    • Aix Sponsa

      TIME. AMEN, read my post right above. 2-3rd generation “do nothings”.

      • TIME

        Al & Aix,

        In the music biz I see some crazy things going on, it blows my mind.

        It used to be guys could play a few chords and get by, now some of these kids can’t figure out what a Les Paul is.
        Let alone how to tune a guitar. They want ones that play themselfs.

        • grannymae

          TIME,

          Boy can I agree with you on that! To see that in practice all you have to do is tune into the auto races and listen to the people they get in there to sing the National Anthem! To me the National Anthem should always be sung as it is writen and not have any personal spin on it ! But most of the people doing the bookings seem to have no idea that it takes a person with a very large voice range to sing that song properly! Most people can’t sing it . Most singers now days have a very short voice range and only sing six or seven notes through out an entire song not to mention the National Anthem! Because of that , they have to lower some of the high notes and raise some of the low notes, thus they fracture the anthem and in my opinion that is a disgrace ! The next thing you know they will be singing the Star Spangle Banner to rap music !! By the way I think a Les Paul is a guitar, some models of which are worth a lot of money ! Wish I had one !

          • grannymae

            Another thing about kids that can’t play a guitar. I think that again comes in with parents that give the kid a guitar, for Christmas because they asked for one but they don’t bother to take the time to take the kid to lessons to learn how to play it. The kids have to try to pick it up on their own or find a friend that can teach them a few chords. And everybody thinks he is a singer !!!!

          • http://?? Joe H.

            grannymae,
            Look up Les Paul and Mary Ford. The Les Paul is a type of guitar designed by Les Paul during his carreer. My father introduced to their music when I was a kid.

          • TIME

            Grannymae,

            Les Paul and his wife Marry Ford were indeed singer / song writers in the 1950′s.
            Les also invented the solid body electric guitar of what Gibson named after him. The 1958 – 1960 Les Paul Standards are what are known in the Guitar world as the Holly Grails of Electric Guitars, and yes they bring good money if they are in super shape.

            But what most folks don’t know about Les is that in a recording studio all most everything in them Les Invented, from Reverb, to Echo, to multi tracking, overlay tracks, Looping, Sound booths, you name it he had his hand in it.
            And thats what “FREEDOM” brings out in people “INVENTIONS,” & PROGRESS, something that fails to work in a Socialist government, of what most kids these days think is just fine.
            Saddly most are not quite getting the point that they will not have a new Blackberry nor a Phat Flat 55″ Telie a new Porsche 911 let alone that BIG house that Mom & dad have with a pool and guest house with any form of Socialist system of government.

            All they have to do is take a trip to the UK or France to find that out. But saddly they would rather have a DREAM of that special life where the Government takes care of them.

          • http://deleted Claire

            Les Paul and Mary Ford –I loved their song “How High the Moon.”

          • http://?? Joe H.

            Time,
            He was simply brilliant for his time in his use of re-recording over a track to make him and his wife sound like a quartet of quintet!! Like Jimmi Hendriks, he was very much ahead of his time!! Unfortunatly, jimmi was too far ahead of his times and his music is more popular NOW than it was in the sixties!!

  • Warrior

    And as Rome is burning, the circus, referred to as the US Senate, continues to carry on their popularity pageant!

    Progressives must GO!

    • TIME

      Warrior,
      I am waiting on the Heavy Cement Shoe event in 2012. Thats event really has a BIG splash to it.
      And the LOOKS they give as they sink into the depths is really classic.

  • http://www.piedmontwebmasterservices.com Dan

    If you like me, then you don’t have anything to worry about. I don’t have enough money to buy stocks, bonds or gold and silver. I do have enough money to buy long term food storage, guns and ammo, just getting started on a chicken coop and am looking at putting goats on the kudzu hill. Then I’m looking at stocking up on barter items. A poor man’s gotta make plans to protect himself regardless of how the more well to do individuals do.

    • http://www.brtmt.com/Images/index1.jpg Vigilant

      You and I are in the same boat, Dan. Got my heirloom seeds, felling trees and splitting them for firewood, got two dug wells and learning how to do canning, etc.

      I’ve always marvelled at the magnetism of the glitter of gold in people’s minds. They actually believe precious metals are going to be worth something when the crunch hits. Doesn’t matter if it goes to $10K an ounce, it’s value is measured in…fiat dollars.

      When someone shows up at my house with a wheelbarrow full of gold to trade for the foodstuffs and water I’ve put aside to help my family survive, they might just as well have shown up with a wheelbarrow full of manure to trade. Actually, manure may be worth more than gold since you can fertilize with it.

      • Eddie47d

        I must admit I love your comment for it had humor and a punch. I don’t have much in the stock market and it could be worthless again but am leery of all the gold hype. You may be taking a wiser course Vigilant.

        • http://www.brtmt.com/Images/index1.jpg Vigilant

          Thanks, Eddie.

          • grannymae

            I agree with the value of food storage. Can’t eat gold ! Be careful what you allow those goats to feed on. They will eat anything and even things that will kill them and many things will give an off flavor to the milk ! I raised my children on goats milk right from infantcey. My kids couldn’t tolerate cows milk when little but did real well on goat milk. Canning and dehydrating your own food is where it is at ! Best wishes.

      • Surviving

        I think you miss the point. Mony folks recommend stocking up on gold and silver, but not ONLY gold and silver. It is typically recommened after you stock up after you have an ample food storage, ammo, weapons and other necessities stored.

        This gentleman was discussing money in the article, not survival storage.

        Gold and silver historically become money once the fiat currency fails. It is your method of trade rather than fiat dollars.

        Everything in moderation. It will all be helpful and useful after the collapse…if history repeats itself.

        And it always does.

        • Aix Sponsa

          hyper inflation. Look it up. Money and any currency system is virtually worthless. Eventually material goods and precious metals are the only value.

      • Bitter Libertarian

        An interesting side note is that gunpowder (smokeless) is an excellent fertilizer incase they start trading shells for food.

        • BigBadJohn

          On a little more pessimistic note. Forget gold, buy bullets. Every place there has had a major melt down, the price of bullets skyrocketed.

          You may also need them for self defense.

          • Cawmun Cents

            Perhaps you can trade them for food and water….but be wary of the srategist who has prepared for the worst case scenario……

      • Aix Sponsa

        FIAT = Fix It Again Tony. (like the car?) A constant problem, just keep throwing money at it. AMEN.

        • grannymae

          Aix Sponsa

          Oh thats a good one ! LOL !

        • http://?? Joe H.

          AIX,
          no, it’s like the school system. When it doesn’t work, throw some more money at it!!!

  • Bitter Libertarian

    Sadly-Our Collapse is as natural as every other form of erosion in nature.

    As the Grass dies…the soil gets washed away, taking away the foundations of great trees.

    As our morals die….our principals get washed away, taking away the foundations of Liberty & Fredom.

    (I just made this up)

    • Mick

      Bitter Libertarian says:
      March 11, 2011 at 7:44 am
      Sadly-Our Collapse is as natural as every other form of erosion in nature.

      As the Grass dies…the soil gets washed away, taking away the foundations of great trees.

      As our morals die….our principals get washed away, taking away the foundations of Liberty & Fredom.

      (I just made this up)
      &&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&
      Bitter Libertarian,,,

      it’s actually pretty damn good

      • Bitter Libertarian

        Everyone has their “cool” moments. LOL

        • grannymae

          Bitter Libertarian,

          LOL ! OK I want my moment ! LOL !

          • http://?? Joe H.

            grannymae,
            Any time you speak of food storage and canning is your “moment”!!

      • iowaheretic

        You guys sure must love to type!

        • http://www.brtmt.com/Images/index1.jpg Vigilant

          No, it’s called “copy and paste.” Or is that a new concept to you?

          • Mick

            Vigilant says:
            March 11, 2011 at 10:02 am
            No, it’s called “copy and paste.” Or is that a new concept to you?

            ********************
            You got it Vigilant,,,,,,He he,,,,,

          • grannymae

            OK You guys, no fair making fun of us computer illiterates ! LOL ! I’m locky to remember how to bring up my e-mail, never mind remembering how to copy and paste ! Here I am the mother of a family of five boys that all are computer savy along with a husband in the computer and electronic field and I can barely find my way around this thing ! What’s up with that?

          • grannymae

            See what I mean ! LOL ! That was suppose to be lucky not locky ! Sorry !

      • Aix Sponsa

        Ya, really good.

    • Carlucci

      Very good – ! And so true.

    • http://www.brtmt.com/Images/index1.jpg Vigilant

      BL,

      Not bad for a rookie! (:-)

      • Bitter Libertarian

        I am a Rookie! LOL

    • Lastmanstanding

      B L. It is that simple. You just took a moment to think about how the earth really works. It will give you a better chance than most…

      Last night I sat in the comfort of my modest home with a warm fire in the stove safely tucked away in the Rocky mountains…watching thousands of people in Japan die violently at the hands of the planet that I so dearly love. Things are happening/changing daily. No one knows the outcome…My prayers are with all good people, world wide. Bad people will get what they deserve.

      Don’t know how I will fit in, but it is that simple…

      • grannymae

        Lastmanstanding,

        I too sat in the night watching it all happen and I share your feelings. It is just that no matter what man thinks he is in charge of he reall isn’t. We are at the hands of this planet and almighty God !

    • AngryBuddha

      I wouldn’t be throwing all my dollar bills in the trash just yet chicken littles.

      • vicki

        We aren’t. We are trading them for things of value like food, lead, silver, gold etc. Will be interesting to see how the storage works for people who rent or do not own their own homes. Will the banks foreclose or will they be too busy fending off the latest government scam to “save” people from foreclosure.

  • Maggie

    Humpty Dumpty sat on the wall..Humpty Dumpty had a great fall..all the Kings horse and all the kings men couldn’t put Humpty Dumpty together again!
    This didn’t JUST happen, it’s been in the works for a very long time, only the American people were too busy doing what ever they do; to even notice the changes.I believe one would call it ” oblivious”.
    IF we survive what’s to come, there will be a NEW WORLD ORDER and the whole world will be Socialistic. A one world government!
    My fomer BIL, who was one of the leading Economist in the USA, advising Pres. Kennedy, Johnson and traveling to 44 countries on behalf of the US government; when I asked him, what is happening to this once GREAT America; he replied…Rome is burning while the people sleep!
    I traveled a great deal for my company when I was working and most of the people I met thought Americans were arrogant, self absorbed and get this one from people in the Mid East..silly little childern.
    So, I end with this…London Bridges falling down, falling down!

  • Elvira

    We had better start learning to speak Mandrin Chinese, NOW!!!

    • http://www.brtmt.com/Images/index1.jpg Vigilant

      Shoot on sight doesn’t require language proficiency, unless you want to first shout “freeze!” in Chinese.

  • DANNY

    When you rot from within eventually you rot away. Just made that up

    • Aix Sponsa

      ya, like cancer. You are what you eat. :-)

      • http://?? Joe H.

        Aix,
        As with some people, it could be said you are what eats you!!!

        • Jay

          I like that one!

  • Bitter Libertarian

    How much do you want to bet that you will see China allowing US Citizens to “relocate” to these big vacant cities they have been building? Collapse of the US dollar, no jobs, little food, civil unrest…the AD reads: WORKERS NEEDED-GOOD PAY-FREE HOUSING-COME JOIN US IN CHINA!

    • Carlucci

      Donald Trump talked about that the other night on David Letterman. He said many Ivy League graduates are getting jobs in China right after graduation because there are no jobs for them here.

      • iowaheretic

        There is no jobs here because the government is paying businesses to hire people from foreign countries over American workers, paying them with YOUR tax dollars! I think if the people really knew about all the government programs being applied to work against the American people with thier own tax dollars it would really start a real civil war, but then maybe not. Remember, half the people of this country have been begging the government to run thier lives for the last 20 years! If you don’t believe me about the amount of tax dollars being wasted and squandered by the government, go to Chuck Grassley’s website and check it out. He is one of the BEST government watchdogs we have working FOR the American people!

    • Aix Sponsa

      “Duck and cover.” I always said, “they won’t bomb the USA. They have someone who wants to live in your house.”……. so who owns a large percentage of home mortgages now?

    • vicki

      “AD reads: WORKERS NEEDED-GOOD PAY-FREE HOUSING-COME JOIN US IN CHINA!”

      Reminds me of the ad campaign in the movie “Blade-Runner” for offworld relocation.

  • Teresa

    Sadly you can tell people to buy their gold, silver whatever it takes, but that will not buy their soul into heaven. This nation created its own destruction. This has been foretold for years and years. While people whine about what their “free” governmental rights this economy WILL fall, has already been told for OUR own greed. This nation WILL be destroyed before the second coming and we are seeing the signs at alarming speeds and people are so caught up in the chaos that they either ignore the signs or just still deny to accept Jesus Christ as the one TRUE God. Our rights as individuals in this nation have been stripped from us over the years and WE allowed it. Do not expect US to go around other nations cleaning their house when we can’t clean our OWN HOUSE! We live in hypocricy and Allow the media and government to keep the People in total chaos in order to feed their vile lies to the world for THEIR goals. It is up to the individuals “US” to stand with morals for what is right. This nation WILL fall. Where your heart and soul as and individual is will determine how we stand as a nation and how you spend eternity.

    • vicki

      Teresa writes:
      “Our rights as individuals in this nation have been stripped from us over the years and WE allowed it. ”

      Well, actually none of us are that old. The conservatives on this site are not likely to be the ones that voted for Obama. Nor are the ones in California likely to have voted for all the Democrats that run around here. Moonbeam brown, Nancy “We have to pass the bill to find out what is in it” Pelosi, Barbara Boxer and so on.

      The point is that WE did NOT allow it. Allowing people with nothing to loose to vote for money from the public trough DID cause it. That was done before our time. Had the people who were voted into office actually honored their oath THEY could have stopped it. But the loss of moral codes and honor happened MANY MANY years ago.

      That being said the here and now is US. We have a duty to tell as many of our fellow Americans what went wrong and why so that they can join us and vote wisely. Nov 2010 gave rise to hope. Let us remember and if the Republicans do NOT deliver then let us throw more of them out and throw out the ones we just sent there and get a new batch.

      The MSM has become irrelevant to Politics. The Internet and social networks are the battle ground. Sites like this the armament of the righteous. Cites like the little blue links you see from Conservatives the Swords of Truth.

      The time is now and WE are the people.

  • jopa

    Even better than buying gold is to form a union.They are what made this country great and provided the lifestyle millions of working Americans are enjoying today.Most Americans don’t even realize how good they have it today due to union efforts in the past.They think working in a pleasant work environment is owed to them and the companies give them all their benefits out of the kindness of their hearts.If you have an MBA you may do fine but the rest of you good luck.

    • http://www.brtmt.com/Images/index1.jpg Vigilant

      jopa,

      Get off it! That posting is not at all germaine to the subject here. Looks like you got so fired up about the union discussions on another part of this site that your brain fried, like HAL in “2001, A Space Odyssey.”

      • http://www.brtmt.com/Images/index1.jpg Vigilant

        Like BBJ above, you’ll be extolling the virtues of unions as you take your last dying breath. Hint: unionizing ain’t gonna help you when you’re starving to death.

        • http://?? Joe H.

          Vigilant,
          sure it will!! He can eat the union rule book! Only AFTER he pays his dues, but then he can eat it!!!!

          • Patty

            I am sure that is part of Michelle Obama’s diet plan.

    • Bitter Libertarian

      The Soviets formed a Union…how did that work out for them ;)

      • http://www.brtmt.com/Images/index1.jpg Vigilant

        “People’s Republic of Jopa” kinda has a ring to it, don’t you think?

        • Eddie47d

          Mugabe formed the “Republic” of Zimbabwe so how is that working out for them. Everyone loves throwing names around and tries to be the bad azz which I am probably doing right now. LOL

          • http://www.brtmt.com/Images/index1.jpg Vigilant

            No prob, Eddie. Your compliment above has put me in a good mood, so I promise to avoid haranguing you today! (:-)

          • JC

            And here again we have “eddie the commie” disparaging the founding principles of the United States and the Republic for which they stand.
            You really should leave eddie, it’s going to get ugly and when it’s over Americans will be beating the bushes for communists…

          • Eddie47d

            JC; …and when was that? That is almost funny coming from someone who endorses extremist views from the far right.

          • JC

            The far right? When did our Constitution bercome far right?
            Oh yeah, when we bacame infested with Communists cockroaches.

  • http://MSN.com Elena T

    No “Bail-Out” for Obama !

    “COMRAD OBAMA” has had enough time… We need to see his BIRTH CERTIFICATE, or he is simply not our president!

    Obama has no effective or serious plan to improve our economy. He is pleased with his plan to destroy our economy so why would he know how or even want to see America become stronger?

    • Aix Sponsa

      See. That is two problems many have.
      1) Birth certificate is moot at this point.
      2) Socialist actually BELIEVE that they are correct in what they are doing/ they believe their solutions are the way to salvation. Conservatives don’t actually understand that simple point, and that makes the discussion unsolvable.

      • http://?? Joe H.

        Aix,
        Actually it isn’t! By letting a non- citizen serve as president, if it ever comes out later, he has set a precedence! If it isn’t the end of this once great nation, it will be then!!

      • vicki

        Aix Sponsa writes:
        “2) Socialist actually BELIEVE that they are correct in what they are doing/ they believe their solutions are the way to salvation. Conservatives don’t actually understand that simple point, and that makes the discussion unsolvable.”

        Oh we know full well that Socialists are not sane. Socialism has failed EVERY TIME it is tried in groups larger than the family unit. Every time. But in their arrogance, the American Elite believe that THEY can do what no one else in history has done.

        Much like rebellious teens they think they know it all. Reality will put them in their place just as it has for any actual adults that survived.

  • Ted Crawford

    It’s clear we are in for a very, very tough ride! When Hedgefund managers like Carl Icahn, Chris Shumway and even Soroses own Stanley Drukenmiller GIVE the investors their money back and stop investing for them! Even the ultrarich such as Bill Gross and Seth Klarman are pulling their money out of the market!

  • http://msn.com Wizzer

    Best thing to invest in is your health, so you can work longer & harder in the rice patty that we will all be knee deep in!
    The bigger problem I see is the complete apathy of the average American, and the total self-centeredness of the liberal union parasite. These people are the one’s who could care less about the ship going down as long as they have what they think is a life preserver… Obama & their union jobs, and of course their alcohol and weed.

    • vicki

      That is cause they do not understand how little they actually need.

      When rationing starts and the 2nd half of the infamous communist sound byte goes into full effect they will discover just what the Soviet people did.

      “from each according to their ability, to each according to their (ACTUAL) need”

      Humans have a way overblown sense of need. Especially liberals/progressives.

  • jopa

    Vigilant So sorry now I remember this is the gloom and doom arena.Japan has been devastated by earthquakes and tsunamis that are about to hit the west coast.The stock market is about to crash due to all the devastation.There are going to be major fires in California again this summer and devastating dust storms out west.I know you guys are all in the party of death so today should be a great day for you.

    • http://www.brtmt.com/Images/index1.jpg Vigilant

      (1) Missed the thrust of the article again, didn’t you? Who is talking about natural disasters?

      (2) “party of death?” No, that’s the pro-abortion crowd you belong to.

      • Eddie47d

        Those two Republican Wars have caused quite a bit of death. Now they are Democrat Wars and they are responsible for future deaths.Kind of a reverse of the Vietnam War. First we had Johnson the warmonger then Nixon who continued the killing crusade. Neither Party is pure.

        • http://www.brtmt.com/Images/index1.jpg Vigilant

          Damn, I’m forced to agree with you. But remember, Nixon got us out of the war.

          • Tom Anderson

            Yes, BY DEFINITION, SURRENDER is “getting our of war”. Nixon closed the book on what LBJ fomented. The US Military scrambled out of Nam with tail-between-legs. At least Custer et. al. remained on the battlefield! Our military left their Nam friends to let the commies have their way with them when we slithered away. Haven’t any of these yung’uns seen our choppers pulling away from our Saigon embassy with our Nam friends pleading for their lives – bring tears to eyes! Our old military is laden with guilt over THAT.

            Nixon, one night, met with a bunch of anti-war hippies at the Lincoln Monument. THAT meeting is historical. Seldom will ANY prez meet with strident oppostion forces. Nixon had some gonads at least.

            Nixon was nasty, anti-semitic and conspired to murder Jack Anderson and JFK, but, otherwise a really nice guy. He did some kind favors for my family – I owe him.

          • Eddie47d

            Tom; Truthfully and historically we never should have been in Vietnam. As tough as it was it actually took backbone to pull out and somewhat admit our errors. That doesn’t take away the heroics of our veterans. It only highlighted the lies of our leaders.

        • Bitter Libertarian

          Perfect analogy!

          • grannymae

            Bitter Libertarian,

            I guess we have all kind of gotten off the main subject this time but I think that is because most people can’t afford to buy gold and silver! It would have been nice but even before the price got sky high I couldn’t see my way clear to spend on gold. My common sense told me to concentrate on food and medicine and every day goods. So I will leave the gold for all those that can afford it and when you need my goods you can come and see me and trade your gold to me for my goods ! Maybe ! I can’t for the life of me see what gold or anything else is going to do for the people in Japan right now. If it was in their homes it was all washed away in the tsunami ! Could be the lot of us all in the future ! Naaa! They can keep their gold and I will keep my soul !

          • http://?? Joe H.

            grannymae,
            Actually, I have combined two things into one. I have always been interested in coins and about 20 years ago I started collecting them. I have a good amount of silver and some gold. I believe the most beautiful coin the US has ever produced is the silver eagle!!! One ounce of .999 pure silver, and a real looker!!

          • vicki

            grannymae writes:
            “If it was in their homes it was all washed away in the tsunami ! Could be the lot of us all in the future ! Naaa! They can keep their gold and I will keep my soul !”

            Your food will wash away. The gold, being very heavy, will tend to stay put. Unless your whole house floats :)

            Your soul however will stay with you. (As you said)

        • Tom Anderson

          Neither party is pure?? That is a terrible way to describe it – better

          BOTH parties are dirty slimy lying treacherous greedy whores (forgive me whores)

          Gen. Washington despised the entire idea of parties – silly him!

        • Cawmun Cents

          Werent eight times as many killed in the fiasco that became Viet Nam?Yes and wasnt it a progressive democrat who got us deep into that one?HMMMMM…..

        • http://marcum1@wildblue.net coal miner

          eddie47d,

          The Republicans stared the Vietnam War,we inherit it from the French.That war was going on long before Kennedy and Johnson were in office.Check it out.

          • Eddie47d

            agreed

      • Tom Anderson

        Hate to get “Old Testament” on you, but the VALUE of a fetus is NOT even mentioned (ZERO) in Bible – and if you are OVER 60 years old then you are only worth 15 Shekels (Lev 27:7). A motionless mass of protoplasm is worth ZERO mass of silver or gold.

        In fact, ANY baby LESS THAN ONE MONTH old is VALUELESS – take THAT and smoke it! GOD, the original eugenesist.

        GOD understood that the value of a less-than-one-month-old (male or female) is ZERO – - go argue with GOD.

        And, of course, females, in every case, have a lower Shekel value than males. Which is to be expected since there are, generally, more of them – simple supply and demand economics.

        Why all of this ranting about abortion, when GOD himself (Leviticus again) ignores infanticide under one month AFTER delivery – and demands torture (circumcision) at 8 days. (but, note!, NO female circumcision – whatever THAT is)

        • http://marcum1@wildblue.net coal miner

          Tom Anderson,

          You are right.

        • Vicki

          Tom Anderson writes:
          “GOD understood that the value of a less-than-one-month-old (male or female) is ZERO – – go argue with GOD.”

          Ok. though arguing with you will be easier since you are the confused one.

          God understands that the value of a less than one month old is PRICELESS for they have not experienced enough of the world to have committed any SIN.

          Now let us look at the passage you found so interesting (Leviticus 27)
          This is a discussion of how much in bits of silver that someone will pay the priests if they wish to redeem something (or someone) for which they have vowed unto the Lord. Children under 1 month old could NOT BE VOWED so there can be no redemption price.

          What is under discussion in Leviticus is not the value of a person. It is the price to pay for withdrawing a vow.

          http://bible.org/seriespage/value-vow-leviticus-27

          • http://?? Joe H.

            Vicki,
            Also, at the sermon on the mount, when the men were keeping the children back from Jesus, he said “suffer not the children for they are as pure as the driven snow”!

        • http://marcum1@wildblue.net coal miner
          • Jay

            But who will save them from you?

          • http://?? Joe H.

            coal miner,
            I used to think you were one sick puppy!! I don’t think that anymore! I KNOW IT!!!! YOU HAVE PROVEN IT BEYOND ANY POSSIBLE SHADOW OF A DOUBT!!!

    • vicki

      Vigilant says:
      “(2) “party of death?” No, that’s the pro-abortion crowd you belong to.”

      And don’t forget the hidden “death panels” in the Democrat “Obamacare”

  • http://n.cates@cox.net Norman F.

    I’m sorry, I can’t agree with you. The Federal government is on the brink of destruction, but the nation will endure. Fragmented, to be sure, but still here. Google “secession” and see the future of the U.S. I don’t know how the final layout will be, maybe three or four independent “countries” or maybe more. The states that can produce food crops will join with adjoining states that are the manufacturing centers to form independent “States”. The District of Columbia will become a tourist destination “DC World” and we will be able to tour the place that caused the destruction of the United States of America.

  • CJM

    And no one is looking at those who cannot afford to buy an ingot of gold or silver; so they are to fold and do the bidding of those in power? I think not. As for the youth of today, they have been brainwashed into thinking the government owes them everything because you have teachers who blame the parents for every shortcoming exhibited. I don’t think America will cease to exist; even the poor know what’s going on and will fight to maintain what little they do have, including their freedom.

    • Eddie47d

      The teachers are blaming the parents for not being involved in the child’s education. These teachers are tired of being the babysitters and having to be the discipline police for those parents.

      • Bitter Libertarian

        It is a systematic problem. I agree that teachers should not have to be babysitters, however, parents should not be called abusers because a child tells a teacher they were spanked.

        The doo-gooders who are so quick to call abuse are usually very ignorant of what it takes to raise a child.

        • http://?? Joe H.

          Bitter,
          goes with the old saying em’ as can do! Em’ as can’t teach!!!

      • Patty

        It would help if the teachers taught the 3 r’s instead of teaching them that thier parents can’t discipline them. Because sure enough, social services shows up to your door. They usurp the parents right to teach their own children discipline.
        http://protectingourchildrenfrombeingsold.wordpress.com/2011/03/05/social-workers-use-this-system-to-attack-parents-and-steal-children/
        this isn’t exactly what I was looking for, but close. You ask any parent today and they FEAR the school and social services getting into their home life.

  • jopa

    Elena T;You must be a follower of Kommandant Koch the nazi teabagger moneybag.Nobody wants to destroy America as much as the teabaggers and nazis.But it may be the teabaggers don’t even know they are doing the work of the nazi’s and may be totally innocent.

    • luvall

      You seem to have your political parties confused. It is the DNC which has aligned itself with the Communist Party of America and the Democrat Socialists (Nazi-NATIONAL Socialist Party)

      • Eddie47d

        Another bad azz trying to align the Democrats with evil empires. Both you and jopa have fallen out of the coconut tree.

        • luvall

          The ONE NATION NOW gathering? Both the directors of La Raza(Martinez) and DC? regional director of the NAACP both admitted as much and the event was endorsed by Obama

        • Cawmun Cents

          Look up the roster of democrats that are members of the Democratic Socialist party….and maybe you wont continue to be ignaaaint!

    • http://www.brtmt.com/Images/index1.jpg Vigilant

      jopa,

      Only a statist would accuse a political movement of Naziism that seeks to restore the Constitution. George Orwell had it right.

  • Aix Sponsa

    Isn’t 2012 suppose to be “the end of life as

  • Aix Sponsa

    Isn’t Dec,2012 suppose to be “The end of life as we have known it”?

    • http://?? Joe H.

      Aix,
      That would be Dec. 21 2012, according to the mayan calendar!!

  • Mick

    BigBadJohn says:
    March 11, 2011 at 11:44 am

    Because you think in terms of black and white – YOU are the problem!

    The GOP was responsible for about seven billion of the 10 billion national debt we had up until 2008.
    They are not going to save you or even TRY to balance the budget.
    Sorry but it is not as simple as
    republican – good
    democrat – bad.
    I realize that is all your simple mind can compute – I feel sorry for you….
    &&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&

    Talk about simple minds ! Where do you get your informations BigBadJohn , here is the treasury direct Summary from sept 2000 when your loving Clinton was in power and end in 2010 with the Godly piece of crap we have now ..Notice the amount in sept 2000 and the amount in sept 2008, does it look like 7 billions to you ?
    Check it out year by year,,,,,,,

    09/30/2010 13,561,623,030,891.79
    09/30/2009 11,909,829,003,511.75
    09/30/2008 10,024,724,896,912.49 +++++
    09/30/2007 9,007,653,372,262.48
    09/30/2006 8,506,973,899,215.23
    09/30/2005 7,932,709,661,723.50
    09/30/2004 7,379,052,696,330.32
    09/30/2003 6,783,231,062,743.62
    09/30/2002 6,228,235,965,597.16
    09/30/2001 5,807,463,412,200.06
    09/30/2000 5,674,178,209,886.86 ++++++
    [–] Text Size [+]

    • Mick

      It should have been trillions anyhow……………

  • jopa

    Vigilantee;It is only being disguised under the cloak of the Constitution.The Koch brothers heritage with the Nazis and Buchenwald are for all to see.Just google Karl Otto Koch and see where there philosophy originates.

    • Vigilant

      C’mon, jopa, the Koch brothers may financially support part of the Tea Party’s efforts, but the TP has been from the beginning a grass roots movement whose members are simply saying, “I’m tired as Hell, and I’m not going to take this any more!”

      The way you tell it, success of the TP movement would catapult the Koch bros. to power, who would wipe out the movement and then diametrically oppose the very principles the TP stands for. That, in anyone’s book, is nonsensical.

      • http://?? Joe H.

        vigilant,
        THAT in any book is jopa!!!

  • chuckb

    jopa, check out joseph p. kennedy, he was sympathetic to germany in ww2. so ? “that’s jfk’s old man” both he, john and bobbie were antio communist. germany was fighting the communist. strange, they would have really been up against it in todays politic’s, of course teddy went the other way, probably drank so much he didn’t know the difference.

  • jopa

    chuckb;The whole Republican party was pro Germany and didn’t want the US to get involved in WW11.Germany wasn’t fighting the Commies because of Communism they wanted control of the world.

    • Vigilant

      jopa, learn some history. Calling the GOP pro-Germany is beyond ridiculous.

      FDR was elected, among other things, on a promise not to get the US into a war. For God’s sake, the whole country was isolationist!

    • http://?? Joe H.

      jopa,
      be careful there, son. you even hint that Joe Kennedy was republican, and he will haunt you the rest of your days!!!

  • http://charden@neo.rr.com Charles

    jopa,
    All,you do is bitch about the Koch brothers. You gsve me two names
    on the right trying to destroy Anerica. I gave you ten names on the left encluding your Marxist ass leader,Obama. I didn`t even mention your buddie, George the man Soros. Where are the other two stooges,
    Bob wire,and Denisso? I think the three of you form a caliphate of how to be stupid. You know we love you japa,just the same.

  • http://charden@neo.rr.com Charles

    Jopa,
    What Germany and Obama had in common They would have loved to rule
    the world. You say the Republicans loved the Germans, then why did we have a Republican, as our top general in Europe,wanting to destroy
    Germany and every thing they stood for. (Dewight D Eisenhouer)

    • Tom Anderson

      I understand that Ike was, at heart, at DEMOCRAT – always had been. But many influencial friends talked him into running as a GOP prez.

      They convinced him that if he had run as a DEMO that the 2 party system would have ended. And Ike ran as GOP simply to keep the 2 party system alive.

      Ike was raised a Jehovah’s Witness and, like many other minority religions (JEWS), they tend towards DEMOCRAT.

      Ike got along famously with FDR and TRUMAN until Ike suggested that he could end the war in Korea – Truman threw a fit. But IKE did end that war (or stalemated it anyway).

      More than THAT, Ike rubbed shoulders with the USSR Generals all the time – McCarthy attacked him on THAT.

      I have read 3 biographies on Ike – so, please correct me if I am wrong – I would be interested in alternate opinions.

  • WayneT

    Here is a good article I received in my e-mail today: I think it will be appropriate to post it in the forum:

    A BLACK MAN, THE PROGRESSIVE’S PERFECT TROJAN HORSE

    By Lloyd Marcus

    As millions of my fellow Americans, I am outraged, devastated and extremely angry by the democrat’s unbelievable arrogance and disdain for We The People. Despite our screaming “no” from the rooftops, they forced Obamacare down our throats. Please forgive me for using the following crude saying, but it is very appropriate to describe what has happened. “Don’t urinate on me and tell me it’s raining.” Democrats say their mission is to give all Americans health care. The democrats are lying. Signing Obamacare into law against our will and the Constitution is tyranny and step one of their hideous goal of having as many Americans as possible dependent on government, thus controlling our lives and fulfilling Obama’s promise to fundamentally transform America ..

    I keep asking myself. How did our government move so far from the normal procedures of getting things done? Could a white president have so successfully pulled off shredding the Constitution to further his agenda? I think not.

    Ironically, proving America is completely the opposite of the evil racist country they relentlessly accuse her of being, progressives used America ‘s goodness, guilt and sense of fair play against her.. In their quest to destroy America as we know it, progressives borrowed a brilliant scheme from Greek mythology. They offered America a modern day Trojan Horse, a beautifully crafted golden shiny new black man as a presidential candidate. Democrat Joe Biden lauded Obama as the first clean and articulate African American candidate. Democrat Harry Reid said Obama only uses a black dialect when he wants.

    White America relished the opportunity to vote for a black man naively believing they would never suffer the pain of being called racist again. Black Americans viewed casting their vote for Obama as the ultimate Affirmative Action for America ‘s sins of the past.

    Then there were the entitlement loser voters who said, “I’m votin’ for the black dude who promises to take from those rich SOBs and give to me.”

    Just as the deceived Trojans dragged the beautifully crafted Trojan Horse into Troy as a symbol of their victory, deceived Americans embraced the progressive’s young, handsome, articulate and so called moderate black presidential candidate as a symbol of their liberation from accusation of being a racist nation. Also like the Trojan Horse, Obama was filled with the enemy hiding inside.

    Sunday, March 21, 2010, a secret door opened in Obama, the shiny golden black man. A raging army of democrats charged out. Without mercy, they began their vicious bloody slaughter of every value, freedom and institution we Americans hold dear; launching the end of America as we know it.

    Wielding swords of votes reeking with the putrid odor of back door deals, the democrats landed a severe death blow to America and individual rights by passing Obamacare.

    The mainstream liberal media has been relentlessly badgering the Tea Party movement with accusations of racism. Because I am a black tea party patriot, I am bombarded with interviewers asking me the same veiled question. “Why are you siding with these white racists against America ‘s first African American president?” I defend my fellow patriots who are white stating, “These patriots do not give a hoot about Obama’s skin color. They simply love their country and oppose his radical agenda. Obama’s race is not an issue.”

    Recently, I have come to believe that perhaps I am wrong about Obama’s race not being an issue. In reality, Obama’s presidency has everything to do with racism, but not from the Tea Party movement. Progressives and Obama have exploited his race from the rookie senator’s virtually unchallenged presidential campaign to his unprecedented bullying of America into Obamacare. Obama’s race trumped all normal media scrutiny of him as a presidential candidate and most recently even the Constitution of the United States .. Obamacare forces all Americans to purchase health care which is clearly unconstitutional.

    No white president could get away with boldly and arrogantly thwarting the will of the American people and ignoring laws. President Clinton tried universal health care. Bush tried social security reform. The American people said “no” to both president’s proposals and it was the end of it. So how can Obama get away with giving the American people the finger? The answer. He is black.

    The mainstream liberal media continues to portray all who oppose Obama in any way as racist. Despite a list of failed policies, overreaches into the private sector, violations of the Constitution and planned destructive legislation too numerous to mention in this article, many Americans are still fearful of criticizing our first black president. Incredible.

    My fellow Americans, you must not continue to allow yourselves to be “played” and intimidated by Obama’s race or the historical context of his presidency. If we are to save America , the greatest nation on the planet, Obama’s progressive agenda must be stopped.

    Lloyd Marcus (black) Unhyphenated American, Singer/Songwriter, Entertainer, Author, Artist & Tea Party Patriot

    2010 Lloyd Marcus – All Rights Reserved
    SHARE THIS WITH AMERICA ! ! ! !

    Lloyd Marcus is one of the strongest voices in the Tea Party movement.

  • chuckb

    wayne t, do you want the bolcheviks commenting here to have a heart attack. the article by lloyd marcus is probably more than they can digest.

    • WayneT

      No, Chuck, I wouldn’t wish that on them. This is just the ideology they grew up with, most likely by being around the wrong people. We know what’s wrong, but they don’t.

  • chuckb

    jopa, true, most americans did not want to get involved in ww2 and that included democrats. many people thought roosevelt knew more about the pearl harbor bombing than was revealed. hitler didn’t want to get into a shooting match with the u.s., he knew our potential of manufacturing arms and we were out of range of his bombers. when germany invaded the areas taken from germany by the treaty of versailles he offered to stop, however, england and france refused. his main goal was the ussr and the communist, if you read the history of that time, the communist jews were the ones hitler was after. if it were not for the communist in germany hitler may never had come to power. no one knows for sure.

  • von

    Somewhere round about 1933 When our country had similar trouble Roosevelt and company fixed the owners of gold by making it illegal to own, use, trade, sell and forced the public to turn in the gold they had. Those trying to control the money, and its use in this country are not likely to let the people use gold instead of their money wether it be federal reserve notes, or something else intended to replace the federal reserve note. if the parasites manipulating the US government today decide to make it illegal to own gold, what do you do if you have bought gold? In playing a game with a viscous opponent, in order to move into a position of check, then check mate, you MUST out manuver him, that is to say not fall for his GAME/TRAP. I think a case of cigerettes will be worth more than an ounce of gold when the time comes, people don’t need gold, people aren’t driven by having gold, people can do without gold, a cigeratte smoker can not do without a cigerette.

  • Dan az

    George sorass enjoyed working for the nazis while in his teens and made a lot of money.He reminds me of the organ grinder standing on the corner with his monkey on a leash show how smart and adorable his monkey is while the whole time the monkey is stealing the wallets of all the unsuspecting people.People its time to wise up this monkey is not going to stop, he is programed to do just what he was trained to do!

  • jopa

    Danaz;George Soros was a 14 year old Jewish kid in Nazi occupied territory trying to stay alive.He helped the Hungarian family that was providing cover for him move some furniture that had belonged to a Jewish family that was sent probably to Buchenwald where the Koch brothers Grandfather Karl Otto Koch was the camp konnandant.The grandmother was known as the Bitch Of Buchenwald, a guard that would ride around in a jeep and took pleasure in picking out what prisoners would be whipped that day.She was also fond of lamp shades made out of human skin especially the one’s with tattoos.Soros didn’t make a dime off the Nazi’s but Koch was put to death eventually for trying to rip them off.

  • jopa

    Charles: Dwight D Eisenhower was probably one of the greatest generals of all time but he was just doing his job and he knew how to do it well.The same with his presidency and the interstate highway system.I still like Ike.The only problem I ever had with him they would televise his golf games and we only had one channel at the time.That is probably why even today I have no interest whatsoever in that game.Is that considered a sport I don’t know?

    • Tom Anderson

      I like Ike too!

      Ike tackled Jim Thorpe in a football game with West Point.

      Ike and Patton dissassembled a tank together – I don’t know if they were able to put it back together.

      Ike was raised as a Jehovah’s Witness which fact he tried his best to obscure

      Ike was adamantly against dropping the A bombs

      Ike was furious with many CIA activities – especially in Nam under JFK

      Ike said that he “FIRED” Gen. Patton

      Ike has been our ONLY prez to take on the MIC. No politician Right or Left (except Ron Paul) has had sufficiently large gonads to do that.

      But Ike did have his warts – golf and whimping out over McCarthy’s attacks. He should have mounted a counter-attack on McCarthy but lacked the will power.

      I still like Ike warts and golf and all. He was, perhaps, the greatest General and Prez of 1900′s and 2000′s.

      NO OTHER GENERAL could have held Stalin, DeGaulle, Churchill and FDR on the same tack – - THAT was an incredible feat by itself – beats ANYTHING done on the battlefield with guns, shells, planes or ships.

  • http://charden@neo.rr.com Charles

    WayneT,
    Excelent post>>> Hopefully Pandora can be put back in the box
    before it`s to late. I think the Progressives came charging out
    to early and tryed to force their agenda down the American people`s
    throat. This is what the T Party and the election of 2010
    has shown. They got greedy with Obamas election and for the sake of this country, we have have to defeat him and his Marxist buddies,
    once and for all. May God bless America and help us take back our
    country.

  • http://charden@neo.rr.com Charles

    jopa,
    Thank God you got something right. I think you might have the brains
    to learn something after all. I think all the understanding and love
    we have shown you, is fianlly paying off. Now please don`t say
    something stupid and make a liar out of me.

  • jopa

    Tom: Ike would have gotten that tank back together if that damn Patton didn’t stick his nose into it.If there was a camera around Patton wanted his face in front of it like that idiot Walker guy in Wisconsin.Thank you.

  • jopa

    Wayne T; never heard of Lloyd Marcus until your post.Well now that you found two black people in America that side with the Teabaggers I guess they couldn’t be racists.Tell them for their own safety not to demonstrate with you guys in Indiana I hear they have the highest rate of KKK membership involved in the Teabagger movement.This is just hearsay on the Indiana part.

    • WayneT

      jopa, I don’t judge a man by his color. I judge a man by the way he conducts himself. Lloyd Marcus appears to be that man, not Obama. I respect a man that has principles. A person that can be trusted, along with having common sense. Who do you respect????

      • http://?? Joe H.

        Wayne T,
        Isn’t it obvious to you? Jopa respects only two! Wylie coyote and George soreass!!!

  • Jay

    I think some have been aware and watching America’s road to its destruction, by design, for some decades. The prophetic doomsday sayers that were routinely criticized and lampooned, were, and are now, justified. They warned that the Sovereign, Christian, Capitalist and industrialized free nations, United States in particular, were being targeted for take over, and would eventually be reconstructed. Who listened? Obviously not the majority. The prophets revealed the strategy the enemy would use. The enemy would begin by attacking our Christian faith and principals that defined us as a nation, and, are critical to our freedoms, as well as our Constitution, whose words reflect the benevolent spirit of our founding fathers, by the use of techniques that would create doubt, confusion and question the legitimacy of both.

    The proposal that all religions, including Christianity, should be regarded as related siblings and of equal status and that any display of resistance or criticism to such, could place one at risk of violating what is law, was the initial attack. Eventually, and as a consequence, the bell toll, that all roads lead to Rome, so to speak, was accepted and imbibed by a considerable number of the american population. It was then followed by the ecumenical process, which was, the amalgamation of multiple Christian denominations under one religious banner. This was done with the intention to undermine absolute convictions with respect to the faith that each one possessed and held dear, but, since some denominations were regarded as having a form of Christianity but not the substance, the mixing of such ensured identity crisis and were as well, necessary in shaping the new religious hegemony. Through this, the trojan horse was offered, and from it emerged a familiar and dangerous enemy, an enemy that is presently residing in our house, an enemy that was once regarded as a hostile and distant neighbour. At present, the Islamic religion enjoys notable prominence, and, it is with great concern, that the Islamic influence, among others, at its current rate of growth may soon supersede that of Christianity. Interesting to observe, the current President.

    It is recognized, that a Nation, must be assured of its identity, with the result, that its steps be sure and secure, applying herself to noble endeavours, but, in confusion of such principal, staggers and wonders, unable to take root, and is ultimately rendered to a non entity, where it then can be arbitrarily defined. And so, the once great Nation, sufficiently sanitized of its identity, may now be adequately primed and willing to accept the new religious persona. If what remains our Christian identity, that defined us as a Nation, is still now viscously assaulted and held in contempt, with its complete destruction perversely coveted, and should the endeavour be successful, what will the end result be, of the remaining treasures we hold dear, freedom, pursuit of happiness, family, freedom of speech, prosperity and our Constitution that was licence to all these?
    And all this, unaware to us, happened while we quibbled amongst ourselves in regards to our petty differences and pursuing mindless pleasures, forgetting the wisdom in the words spoken by the late President, John F. Kennedy, “Ask not, what the Country can do for you, but what you can do for your country”, and for this, was assassinated.

    • WayneT

      Very good post, Jay. Our country was founded on the Judea Christian Principal. Our military have fought & died over the years to protect these principles which most of us still hold dear. It is too bad that these principles we hold so dear to our heart is being destroyed by our enemies of freedom. I just don’t understand it. Our money and our government building still mention God. Our money still stays “In God We Trust”. It doesn’t say in “In Muslim’s We Trust”. We need to get back to our basic principles that made this country so great. I say, the hell with all this political correctness that is ruining our nation, and our trust in God. To me, it is still Merry Christmas, not Happy Holidays, or Xmas. Since we have drifted so far away from our basic principles, how can we ever return back? We need to respect others peoples religion, but they also must learn to respect ours, especially if they are living here, and are from another country. I believe if you would check our history you will find that our soldiers who died for us were fighting for what they believed in, which is a free country where we can worship in our own church, and to respect the rights of others. If the folks coming from another country cannot respect that, let them go back where they came from instead of trying to change the way we are. In God We Trust!!!!

      • Jay

        WayneT, for sure, we need to respect other peoples religious beliefs, but not at the expense and suspension of own. Tricky! Unfortunately,or fortunately, the Christian religion is not compatible with any other, therefore exclusive. Sounds harsh, I know, but thats a different topic. Regardless, Christianity was the mortar and cement that founded our Country, of course, Islam, with respect to theirs, could be charged with the same crime. Something that is carefully hidden by our media, is the slaughter of Christians in Muslim countries. This would certainly be decried here? How people fail to see the contradiction is beyond me.

        • WayneT

          Jay, I whole heartedly agree with you. I was raised in a Christisn Home. We respected people who deserved it. There are a few classes of people that you cannot respect though. I am talking about thieves, murderers, and etc. If Muslims are slaughtering Christians, which I have heard this same thing, no, I do not have ann respect for any religion that would do this. Thank God, the Christian folks I know, do not believe in this either. This is the reason we need for our country to get back to the old time values so we can preserve our way of life. How can we do had when we have taken Christianity out of our homes, our schools, and our lives. The the old Devil himself, the ACLU, is certainly not a friend of anyone who respects religion.

  • chuckb

    jopa, ike couldn’t stand in the shadow of macarthur or patton, ike got to where he was by politics, mainly his wife. of course you of the other faith only know what you read in the revised books of the bolsheviks.

  • chuckb

    wayne t, our christian principals are what have caused us our problems today. we have allowed organizations like the aclu and southern poverty law center under the cloak of civil rights rip our society rip our society from one end to the other they are the ones instrumental in removing our gods name from the classrooms to courts. in later years we have allowed an influx of the islamic belief to saturate this country and now starting to flex it’s muscle. all these organizations are interested in establishing their belief above all others and then those who resist will end up on the chopping block. they have the sympathy of the media and if you complain you are a racist or anti-semite.

    • WayneT

      chuckb, If you read my words again you will see where I said, basic principles, not the crap they are spreading around today. I am talking about the principles that made this a great country. You would have to go back a few years to find the basic principles I was referring about. I can remember when you could go to bed at night, and did not even have to lock your doors. Today you have thieves who will kill you for just a few bucks. It is very hard to find people you can trust anymore. The latter is what I don’t like in our society today. Most of the young folks today had not been raised right to know right from wrong. Parents do not dicipline their childen anymore, and do not teach them the basic rules, do unto others as you would have them do unto you. An example” my two brothers, age 6 and 8 stole a bicycle from a neighbor. They would have gotten away ith it if my sister had not snitched on them. She told Dad what had happened. Dad took my two brothers, along with the bicycle, back to the neighbor and they had to apologize to the neighbor and tell the neighbor they were sorry. This was the last time these two ever stole anything. This is what I mean when I say basic principles. Kids have to be taught these values. It is not something that just happens on its own.

      • http://?? Joe H.

        Wayne T,
        When my oldest was about 12, the corner store caught her putting a candy bar in her pocket and called me. I walked into the store and the owner said that the next time he would call the police. I told him to hand me the phone and I would call them for him right then!! I meant it too! My girl’s jaw almost hit the floor. The owner said no but she was not to come back. I agreed and walked her out to the car. she said “you would have really called the cops!” i told her you are dam right. I won’t have my daughter become a theif! I made her walk down there every day for a week with a broom and sweep his stoop in front of the store. As far as I know she has never stolen a thing since!!!

        • WayneT

          Joe H, you did the right thing. Good for you!!!! We need more parents who will accept the responsibility of being a good parent. As far as I am concerned, a parent who does this loves their child. Thanks for the post. We know there are a few good parents out there.

        • http://deleted Claire

          JoeH–Good for you, you did the correct thing. I have a ’69 Camaro Rally Sport and we never drive it during the winter—-I remember when my son was a junior in high school–he took the Camaro keys out of my purse and drove it to school–and yes, he had a fender bender–he skidded on the ice, hit a concrete post and bashed in the right front fender. The Camaro had to be towed to an auto body shop since the fender was pushed up against the tire. The police called me at work and told me my son was okay but really upset and I had to pick him up at the auto body shop. I went to the auto body shop, my son was there with the cop–I got out of my car, I have never seen my son so upset, he was shaking and crying. I told him thank God he was not hurt and with the next breath I screamed at him that he stole my car. I asked my son if he realized exactly what he had done! I told him he stole my car because he did NOT have my permission to drive it. And I called him thief too. Then I asked the cop to take him back to the station and show him the lowlife that was in jail. I was lucky that the cop agreed, because normally they would not have taken the time to do this. I picked my son up at the police station, and took him home. All the way home my son kept crying and saying he was sorry but I told him being sorry was AFTER the fact—he stole! I think it did a world of good for him to see the drunks, etc. that was in jail. Although I had insurance, I made him pay to have the car fixed. He learned a bitter lesson that day and now that he is an adult he has told me this.

  • chuckb

    chuck b, next time read your comment before posting, ok i will, sorry about that.

  • chuckb

    CAN MUSLIMS BE GOOD AMERICANS?
    (This is certainly ‘food-for-thought’. What do you think?)
    This is very interesting and we all need to read it from start to finish
    Maybe this is why our American Muslims are
    So quiet and not speaking out about any atrocities. Can a good Muslim be
    A good American?
    This question was forwarded to a friend who work ed in Saudi Arabia for 20 years.
    The following is his reply:
    Theologically – no. . . . Because his allegiance is to Allah, The moon
    God of Arabia.
    Religiously – no. . . Because no other religion is accepted by His Allah
    Except Islam (Quran, 2:256)(Koran)
    Scripturally – no. . . Because his allegiance is to the five Pillars of
    Islam and the Quran.
    Geographically – no . Because his allegiance is to Mecca, to which he
    Turns in prayer five times a day.
    Socially – no. . .. Because his allegiance to Islam forbids him to make
    Friends with Christians or Jews ..
    Politically – no. . . Because he must submit to the mullahs (spiritual
    Leaders), who teach annihilation of Israel and destruction of America,
    The great Satan.
    Domestically – no. .. . Because he is instructed to marry four Women and
    Beat and scourge his wife when she disobeys him (Quran 4:34 )
    Intellectually – no. . Because he cannot accept the American
    Constitution since it is based on Biblical principles and he believes the
    Bible to be corrupt.
    Philosophically – no. . . . Because Islam, Muhammad, and the Quran does
    Not allow freedom of religion and expression. Democracy and Islam cannot
    Co-exist. Every Muslim government is either dictat orial or autocratic.
    Spiritually – no. . . Because when we declare ‘one nation under God,’
    The Christian’s God is loving and kind, while Allah is NEVER referred to
    As Heavenly father, nor is he ever called love in the Quran’s 99
    Excellent names.
    Therefore, after much study and deliberation….. Perhaps we should be
    Very suspicious of ALL MUSLIMS in this country. – - – They obviously
    Cannot be both ‘good’ Muslims and good Americans. Call it what you wish
    it’s still the truth. . The more who understand
    This, the better it will be for our country and our future.
    The religious war is bigger than we know or understand. …..
    Footnote: The Muslims have said they will destroy us from within.
    SO FREEDOM IS NOT FREE.

    • Jay

      chuckb, well done!!! Not politically correct, good for you, we must start telling it, like it T.I.S

    • TB

      Absolute silliness!!! Trying to use the koran to completely define a human being that follows the muslim faith is rediculous. Does the bible completely define a christian? If it did, which it obviously doesn’t, would that person be able to be a good American? Maybe, maybe not. Does the Constitution completely define what it is to be an American? Not even close! By this way of thinking, Americans can’t make good Americans!!! I’d bet it all that if I pry hard enough I can find beliefs in everyone in America that stand against the U.S. Constituition and it’s love of individual liberties and government control. People make lots of money arguing against it everyday in court. From the state of our economy and the rate we’re all blaming each other and complaining, I would say most of us don’t make good Americans!!!!!!!!

      • chuckb

        tb, the muslims so far have proved you wrong. their actions speak for themselves throughout the world. your definitions of the christian people lack credence.

        • TB

          Since this is about muslims making good Americans, I would like to point out that there are MILLIONS of muslim’s in America being good Americans right now. About 1% of our total population is muslim. They prove you wrong!!!

          • JC

            And all these “Good American Muslims” remain absolutely silent in the face of Muslim terrorism…like “good” Americans.
            I imagine you believe they will line up to oppose Sharia law too?

          • TB

            JC, there are alot of christians that are being completely silent as well, are they “bad” Americans? I guess they’re not being completely silent, they come to my door 3 or 4 times a week to talk to me about THEIR god’s laws. But, in 41 years of life, I have NEVER had a muslim come to my door to talk to me about sharia law!!! NEVER!!! Sorry, but to this date, only the chritians have forced me to be a part of their religion. Once I broke away, they’re still the only ones trying to convert me to their belief system. A belief system whose moral text, the bible, is equally as violent, crazy and wrong as the koran, in my opinion. Sorry.

      • Jay

        TB, the Bible does, define what a Christian is, and very specifically; forgiven, justified and free to enjoy the new relationship in God through Christ, but is not yet perfected. Have you ever read it? If so, how can you make such a nonsensical statement? Does the Bible define what a good American is? In a way, yes. The Constitution was forged by people of such disposition as mentioned above. If you then disqualify the Bible and the Constitution, from defining what a good American is, then what, or who, can?

        • TB

          Jay, Sorry, but the Constitution was not written by people of the disposition you speak of. Some of them had that dispostion, some DID NOT. For example, Thomas Jefferson was 100% AGAINST religion!!! He considered religion to be tyranny of the mind and stood against all forms of tyranny. Freedom of relegion and the exercise therof, is protected by the 1st Amendment. The very 1st change they made to the Constitution was to guareentee religious freedom. Seems like it was important to them. The 1st Amendment also alows people to speak out against that freedom of religion if they so choose. I find it interesting how we’re willing to use our 1st Amendment rights to fight against our 1st Amendment rights. By the way, I did not DISQUALIFY the bible and Constitution from defining an American, I simply said they DO NOT completely define what it is to be a good American. Just like the koran CAN NOT be used to define if a muslim can be a good American. I’ll leave you with some words from Thomas Jefferson’s 1st inaugrual address… And let us reflect that, having banished from our land that religious intolerance under which mankind so long bled and suffered, we have yet gained little if we countenance a political intolerance as despotic, as wicked, and capable of as bitter and bloody persecutions….

          • chuckb

            tb, i don’t know where you get your history from, jefferson was a very religious man. he became a diest, after a death in his family he denounced the diety of christ, he was a biblical scholar throughout his life and excepted a unitarian view.
            you are using his remarks out of context, what he was saying is this country had freedom of religion not under the rule of any particular one.

          • TB

            chuckb, I won’t claim that I understand Thomas Jefferson completely or that my understanding of history is great, but to think of Jefferson as religious, from our context of muslims and christians in this post, is extremely misleading. He may have been “religious” in his own way, but it was nothing like the religious were speaking of in this post. I’m “religious” in my own way. Am I religious like chritians and muslims, no. I’m definetly no Thomas Jefferson either…

  • chuckb

    jay, i should have noted,i didn’t write the above comment, it was sent to me by a friend and i’m just passing it on. it does prove one thing the muslims can’t abide by our laws and be a muslim. so we should remove this segment of our society, ask them to leave peacefully just like we should ask the illegals.

    • Jay

      That’s a 10/4 chuckb. I still appreciate you posting it, it was right on the money. Tell your friend, Thanks!!!

  • jopa

    Chuckb: Can Muslims become good Americans?What about those crazy Baptists? They wanted to go and protest at the funeral of the seven Mennonite children that died in the farmhouse fire in Pennsylvania?

  • Robert

    Both parties are responsible for our fiscal mess. It makes me sick when Republicans spout off their nonsense that they “are fiscal conservatives”. Yeah right! The party leadership on both sides love it when it’s citizens bicker back and forth over issues. They laugh at us and then go on and do what they do best. Spend money and fund their cronies.

    They all need to be fired and then replaced with people that give a sh**. Hopefully with citizens that currently hold real jobs and run businesses. What we don’t need are professional political types that don’t know their a** from a hole in the ground. We need to reunite and rebuild our once great Country to what it used to stand for.

    • TB

      Well said Robert. Well said.

      • chuckb

        count me in.

        • http://deleted Claire

          Robert– Agreed.

  • chuckb

    jopa, you will have to ask the muslims that question, according to the
    qur’an i would say not. i agree with you about those baptists protesting at the service funerals, i couldn’t be as lenient as the court, they also would be packing their bag. there is no limit when it comes to crazy. just look at you democrats. lol

  • jopa

    Robert;I agree with you but as long as we have lobbyists no msatter who we send to Washington is going to be corrupt and do the work of the lobbiest.Our so called leaders like their job and the best way to get money to get re elected is by taking bribes.Can you imagine the uproar if someone mentioned making lobbying illegal.

  • jopa

    chuckb:I was truly trying to think of some Democrat crazies but couldn’t think of one.How about Lizard Gingrich who was so compassionate for America that he figured he should share that compassion with American women and that is why he cheated on his wives when they became ill.Is he a Mormon or a Moron?What is with all these wives.

  • http://charden@neo.rr.com Charles

    chuckb,
    These are a handful of people calling themselves Baptist,they
    could call themselves anything. The Northern and Southern Baptist
    convention are the largest Baptist orig. today. These so called Baptist, never were Baptist and never belonged to any Baptist church or orig. This could be a bunch of left wing goons trying to give the Christian faith a bad name. I can tell you the real Baptist, would not do what these kooks are doing. I know,I belong to the Northern Baptist Convention.
    The Baptist, are one of the most respected Protestant religions in the world today. Once again, these people are not Baptist, they may be
    a cult of some kind. They aren`t even radical Baptist like radical
    Islam. They are nothing but a bunch of kooks, hiding behind the Baptist
    faith,just like the Progressives, are hiding behind behind the Democrat party.

  • http://charden@neo.rr.com Charles

    The real Baptist, not these kooks calling themselves Baptist have the greatest respect for our service men and their families than any one in the world. We have many men and women, that serve in all the services and are very offened by these people calling themselves Baptist. They are not Baptist and should be delt with as traitors to this country.
    These kooks deceided to use the Baptist name for what reason
    is beyond me.The only thing I can think, they were hoping to give the Christian faith a black eye and by using the Baptist name, they hoped to give their cause, what ever that might be, a form of legetimacy.
    They had my good friend chuckb fooled, that they were Baptist and he is a hard one to fool. Wake up people, please get your facts and truth right before you call them Baptist.

  • jopa

    Charles: When they take the name of Baptist and do foolish things, we here on this particular site say that any Baptist must have the same beliefs.All Baptists are the same just like all Muslims are the same.When it comes to religion the worst thing anyone has done and belongs to a certain faith we have to condemn the rest of the parishioners in that particular faith.We should all petition Rep. King to conduct investigations into the Baptist religion when he gets done with the Muslims.God Bless America

  • http://marcum1@wildblue.net coal miner
    • Jay

      Coal miner, out of what garbage bin did you scrape this document from? Its so slanted and distorted that it doesn’t merit a response. However, it does clearly reflects, the writers bias and anaemic understanding of the Bible. Disgusting?

      • http://marcum1@wildblue.net coal miner

        Jay,
        R
        Those are facts,read your Bible.

        • Jay

          I do, unlike you, I read it in context. You should try it!

          • Jay

            Context,
            noun
            the circumstances that form the setting for an event, statement, or idea, and in terms of which it can be fully understood and assessed : the decision was taken within the context of planned cuts in spending. the parts of something written or spoken that immediately precede and follow a word or passage and clarify its meaning : word processing is affected by the context in which words appear.

          • http://?? Joe H.

            Jay,
            coal miner has already that he is blind in one eye and the other is almost blind so he can’t read in context. Honestly speaking, I think he has somebody reading and typing FOR him as he doesn’t know how!!

          • Jay

            My impression Joe, he has undergone some form of cult indoctrination, maybe even, occult. I sense a very disturbed spirit.

    • Jay

      One of the most frequently used arguments in the defense of Islam is that the Bible is just as violent as the Koran. The logic goes like this. If the Koran is no more violent than the Bible, then why should we worry about Islam? This argument suggests that Islam is the same as Christianity and Judaism. This is false, but the analogy is very popular since it allows someone who knows nothing about the actual doctrine of Islam to talk about it. “See, Islam is like Christianity; Christians are just as violent as Muslims.” If this is true, then you don’t have to learn anything about the actual Islamic doctrine.

      However, this is not a theological argument. It is a political one. This argument is not about what goes on in a house of worship, but what goes on the in the marketplace of ideas.

      Now, is the doctrine of Islam more violent than the Koran? There is only one way to prove or disprove the, and that is to measure the differences in violence in the Koran and the Bible.

      The first item is to define violence. The only violence that matters to someone outside of Islam, Christianity, or Judaism is what they do to the “other,” or political violence. Cain killing Abel is not political violence. Political violence is not killing a lamb for a meal or making an animal sacrifice. Note that regardless of whether a vegan or a PETA member considers both of these actions violent, neither constitutes violence against vegans or PETA members.

      The next item is to compare the doctrines both quantitatively and qualitatively. The political violence of the Koran is called “fighting in Allah’s cause,” or jihad.

      We must do more than measure the jihad in the Koran. Islam has three sacred texts: Koran, Sira, and Hadith, or the Islamic Trilogy. The Sira is Mohammed’s biography. The Hadith are his traditions — what he did and said. Sira and Hadith form the Sunna, the perfect pattern of all Islamic behavior.

      The Koran is the smallest of the three books, also called the Trilogy. It is only 16% of the Trilogy text[1]. This means that the Sunna is 84% of the word content of Islam’s sacred texts. This statistic alone has large implications. Most of the Islamic doctrine is about Mohammed, not Allah. The Koran says 91 different times that Mohammed’s is the perfect pattern of life. It is much more important to know Mohammed than the Koran. This is very good news. It is easy to understand a biography ab

      out a man. To know Islam, know Mohammed.

      It turns out that jihad occurs in large proportion in all three texts. Here is a chart about the results:
      It is very significant that the Sira devotes 67% of its text to jihad. Mohammed averaged an event of violence every six weeks for the last nine years of his life. Jihad was what made Mohammed successful. Here is a chart of the growth of Islam.

      Basically, when Mohammed was a preacher of religion, Islam grew at the rate of ten new Muslims per year. But when he turned to jihad, Islam grew at an average rate of ten thousand per year. All the details of how to wage jihad are recorded in great detail. The Koran gives the great visi

      on of jihad — world conquest by the political process. The Sira is a strategic manual, and the Hadith is a tactical manual, of jihad.

      Now let’s go to the Hebrew Bible. When we count all the political violence, we find that 5.6% of the text is devoted to it. There is no admonition towards political violence in the New Testament.

      When we count the magnitude of words devoted to political violence, we have 327,547 words in the Trilogy[2] and 34,039 words in the Hebrew Bible[3]. The Trilogy has 9.6 times as much wordage devoted to political violence as the Hebrew Bible.

      The real problem goes far beyond the quantitative measurement of ten times as much violent material; there is also the qualitative measurement. The political violence of the Koran is eternal and universal. The political violence of the Bible was for that particular historical time and place. This is the vast difference between Islam and other ideologies. The violence remains a constant threat to all non-Islamic cultures, now and into the future. Islam is not analogous to Christianity and Judaism in any practical way. Beyond the one-god doctrine, Islam is unique unto itself.

      Another measurement of the difference between the violence found in the Judeo/Christian texts and that of Islam is found in the use of fear of violence against artists, critics, and intellect

      uals. What artist, critic, or intellectual ever feels a twinge of fear if condemning anything Christian or Jewish? However, look at the examples of the violent political threats against and/or murders of Salman Rushdie, Theo van Gogh, Pim Fortune, Kurt Westergaard of the Danish Mohammed cartoons, and many others. What artist, critic, or intellectual has not had a twinge of fear about Islam when it comes to free expression? The political difference in the responses to the two different doctrines is enormous. The political fruits from the two trees are as different as night and day.

      It is time for so-called intellectuals to get down to the basics of judging Islam by its actual doctrine, not making lame analogies that are sophomoric assertions. Fact-based reasoning should replace fantasies that are based upon political correctness and multiculturalism.

       - Bill Warner, Director of the Center for the Study of Political Islam

      • http://marcum1@wildblue.net coal miner

        Jay,

        Wrong,The Bible has more sex and violence than the Koran.

        • Jay

          Of course coal miner, what was I thinking, you’re the expert. You’re either muslim, or you’re a muslim, which one?

          • http://marcum1@wildblue.net coal miner

            Jay,

            I am agnostic.I despise all religions,including Islam.

          • Jay

            agnostic |agˈnästik|
            noun
            a person who believes that nothing is known or can be known of the existence or nature of God or of anything beyond material phenomena; a person who claims neither faith nor disbelief in God.
            adjective
            of or relating to agnostics or agnosticism.
            DERIVATIVES
            agnosticism |-təˌsizəm| noun
            ORIGIN mid 19th cent.: from a- 1 [not] + gnostic .

            Anything beyond the material? Why not consider the material? Plenty of food for thought!

  • http://com i41

    chuckb, those hand full of “baptists” are just freaks of ther dumbocrap leanings, phony plants, more of the the crazies like Jame Fonda and other George Soros worshippers. I have asked muslims I have meet in Miin and Colo if and how they can abide by our Constitution? They will not answer and will start bs about heir liking America and its oppertunities, and if you keep pushing for an asnwer they will leave pronto. Any simple minded bastard that thinks there are millions of muslims in the USA, guess they definetly are soros socialists pukes at best. We know Onumnutts broght in abunch of palistinian terroists, and there has been an influx of other goat abusing perverts shipped in by the quiuse of people need a sancurary. When all is ns and is just a way to let more freaks in with Onumnutt’s blessings and the state deparment. Real people are stopping the “Baptist” feaks but we are getting more perverts in society and in prison going rug rubbers. Time to make prisons a harsh learning operations for not conforming to normal society behavior. Too much playing in 3rd grade mentallity and free time, more hard labor like manually building roads and breaking all rochks by hand 14 hours a day. End the bedside buggering and peter puffing,,

  • jopa

    i41: If someone walked up to me and asked me ” Can you abide by our Constitution”.I would look at you like you are the whacko you seem to be.What possessed you to do such an idiotic act?Were you mad at your goat again?What did I tell you about smoking your harvest.

  • http://charden@neo.rr.com Charles

    141,
    These people are not Baptist. You are a Baptist as much as they are
    and I know your not a Baptist. I`m a Baptist, and if believing in
    Jesus Christ as my personal savior and God has his Father makes me, as you call it, a freak, then I guess I`m a freak. I can only feel
    sorry for you and pray for you. If you check my post above,you might learn something.

    • http://?? Joe H.

      Charles,
      Had you read a little closer, you would have seen that i41 was talking about a small group of self proclaimed “Baptists” not the whole religeon! such as the ones that protest outside the military funerals! I was raised a baptist and I would NEVER even consider that!!

      • Jay

        Joe, you are correct. The obvious misrepresentation of God by some who claim to follow Him.

  • chuckb

    tb, since you are so sympathetic to the muslims, the only reason they are being good americans is because at this point they can’t do otherwise. this country and it’s constitution didn’t invite all the whackos in the world to come here and set up their own little fiefdom. people who emigrated here were expected to assimilate to our laws not the sharia law. if you are a muslim then you believe in the qur’an and doesn’t it teach sharia law? doesn’t it state, if the infidel doesn’t except islam then off with his head? an infidel is a christian. the jewish law calls for the same benefit except they have apparently denounced this action. the moon and the star belong in the desert of ignorance called the middle east.

  • http://charden@neo.rr.com Charles

    Jopa,
    The Mulims were already muslims in the begining before they
    became radical and over time, they have recurited Muslins as
    well as non Muslins into their radical thinking. The so called
    people, that are calling themselves Baptist have never been
    Baptist and never will be. I tried to explain this in the up
    post and I don`t know why you have such a hard time understanding
    what I had To say. This is why your a left wing loon,because you
    did`t understand what Obama said he stood for, and what he had in
    mind for this country Just when I think your getting it, up you
    pop, and say something stupid.

    • chuckb

      charles, “The Mulims were already muslims in the begining before they
      became radical”

      the muslims have always been what they are, radical. their believe is radical, contrary to the christian believe. since they have sufficient numbers in this country they are just beginning to show their colors, they want the sharia law enacted. this is what the qur’an teaches and this is what they believe. sharia law and the constitution cannot live under the same flag.
      all muslims believe in sharia law or they couldn’t call themselves muslims, there is no in between

  • http://charden@neo.rr.com Charles

    So jopa,
    You are wrong, we do not have to comndemn any one. Now if it was
    Baptist flying planes into buildings and killing 4,000 people
    and fighting 2 wars with us and cuting Americans heads off, you
    might have a point that the Baptist should be investagated. These people who call themselves Baptist are no more Baptist than you are.

  • http://charden@neo.rr.com Charles

    chuckb,
    Very well said, I can`t understand why these loons don`t get it
    I guess, it`s because they are just plain stupid, or don`t want
    to get it. I read in our local paper that we are the most educated
    people in the world, if this is true, why do we have so many stupid
    people in this country and how in the hell did Obama get elected
    in the first place?

    • Jay

      Because we have a lot of educated, but unethical people in this country!

  • Jay

    100% against religion, in what way? The constitution doesn’t impose religion on anyone, however, the laws of the Constitution do reflect Judeo Christian principals. Do you not see the difference!!!

    . . . Thomas Jefferson believed that the ethical system of Jesus was the finest the world has ever seen. In compiling what has come to be called “The Jefferson Bible,” he sought to separate those ethical teachings from the religious dogma and other supernatural elements that are intermixed in the account provided by the four Gospels. He presented these teachings, along with the essential events of the life of Jesus, in one continuous narrative.

    Recognize the quote below?

    “I have sworn upon the altar of God, eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man.”

    Here is the full quote.

    “The returning good sense of our country threatens abortion to their hopes, & they [the clergy] believe that any portion of power confided to me, will be exerted in opposition to their schemes. And they believe rightly; for I have sworn upon the altar of God, eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man. But this is all they have to fear from me: & enough too in their opinion, & this is the cause of their printing lying pamphlets against me. . .”

    The above quote does not suggest or implies that Thomas jefferson hated religion, he hated anything, whether government, churches, economic systems, that if not watched and kept in check could turn tyrannical towards man.

    Jefferson aimed at laissez-faire liberalism in the name of individual freedom, He felt that any form of government control, not only of religion, but of individual mercantilism consisted of tyranny. He thought that our civil rights have no dependence on our religious opinions, any more than our opinions in physics or geometry.

    Laissez-faire: a policy or attitude of letting things take their own course, without interfering.

    • http://marcum1@wildblue.net coal miner
      • http://marcum1@wildblue.net coal miner

        Jay,

        You don’t have a leg to stand on.

        • Jay

          You’re wrong, I have two.

  • http://charden@neo.rr.com Charles

    Jay
    Excelent Post!!!!!

  • Jay

    The Law and the Constitution
    JAMES HITCHCOCK
    In the last 35 years there has been a kind of revolution in the relationship between religion and American life.

    Freedom to Worship
    by Norman Rockwell

    AS NOTED, America has, from the beginning, had a somewhat ambivalent attitude towards religion in public life. This stemmed from the fact that some of the Founding Fathers were essentially Deists, in the eighteenth-century sense, and some were believing Christians. Both streams helped to shape the American political system. It is possible to find precedent for both a rigid and a more permissive understanding of the principle of separation of church and state. Thomas Jefferson’s personal suspicion of formal religion did not altogether prevail. Many customs grew up which demonstrate the esteem placed on religious faith: meetings of Congress are opened with a prayer and congressional chaplains appointed; the government commissions clergymen to serve as chaplains in the armed forces; the motto “In God We Trust” adorns official currency. Though the public schools eventually came to be the chief battleground between believers and secularizers, until at least World War II and longer in some places, the public schools frequently had a strongly religious character. Clergymen often served as teachers. The Bible was read. Prayers were recited every day. When the first Catholic schools were established in the mid-nineteenth century, it was not because the public schools were secular but because they were too Protestant.
    Prior to World War II, there were few cases involving serious issues of religious freedom or separation of church and state that came before the Supreme Court. A loose, but comfortable, working relationship between religion and the public order was accepted by almost everybody. Perhaps the two major exceptions were an 1878 case (Reynolds v. United States) in which Utah Mormons were forbidden to practice polygamy and a 1925 case (Pierce v. Society of Sisters) in which the Court ruled that children could not be forced to attend public schools if suitable parochial schools were available.

    At the opening of World War II, there were a spate of major court cases involving the right of conscientious objection to military service and the right not to salute the American flag if this violated an individual’s religious convictions. The Jehovah’s Witnesses were involved in these cases, and the Court essentially upheld their rights.

    Beginning in 1947, however, and continuing unabated until the present, there have been an enormous number of court cases involving questions of religious freedom and separation of church and state. The number of such cases during these thirty-five years has far outstripped the number brought to court in the previous more than 150 years of the country’s history. They have also raised all kinds of new issues, and the end result can justly be said to be a kind of revolution in the relationship between religion and American life.

    Between 1948 and 1963, in a series of decisions, the Supreme Court essentially ruled that no religious exercise of any kind — readings from the Bible, general and non-denominational prayers — can be permitted in the public schools. Between 1947 and 1977, the Court banned most forms of public aid to religiously affiliated private schools, although it made a major exception in the case of colleges and universities. In effect, the Court established that public education must be secular. There was little opposition to permit government aid for private education for the children of those citizens who find this secularism unacceptable.

    Many people have protested these decisions and decried their long-range impact on the country. The standard reply is always that, whatever hardships or seeming inequities they may impose on religious believers, such decrees are necessary in order to uphold the clear meaning of the First Amendment. To this is usually added the claim that religious believers should welcome such decrees, because their own religious freedom depends on the continued maintenance of strict separation of church and state.

    The most obvious refutation of this claim has been noted. Throughout most of American history, arrangements existed which were not deemed violation of the Constitution. There has been a genuine revolution in judicial thinking since World War II. Furthermore, where public aid to religious schools is concerned, a number of countries comparable to the United States — Canada, Australia, the Netherlands — provide this aid equally to all religious schools, without suffering any unhappy political results.

    If courts prior to 1947 did not generally think in these terms, what brought the revolution about? The simplest and best answer is that pressure groups organized themselves after the war precisely to bring it about. They had a vision of a secularized America, and they planned and executed a judicial and legal strategy to have that vision enshrined in law.

    The three principal groups were the American Civil Liberties Union, probably the most important force for legal secularization and largely made up of people with a dogmatic belief in it; the American Jewish Congress principally motivated by the estimation that Jews fare better in a secular than in a religious society; and Protestants and Other Americans United for Separation of Church and State, a group which at first simply opposed government aid to Catholic schools, but later changed its name to Americans United for Separation of Church and State and joined in the general secularist pressure. These three groups, as well as others, raised issues the courts had never before considered and challenged practices which had always been tolerated. As important as the specific rulings they obtained was the fact that for the entire post-war era they have kept religion on the defensive in the American legal system through relentless pressure for secularization. Religious believers, rather than seeking to extend their influence in American society, have been reduced to protecting what seems like a steadily diminishing area in which they are allowed to have any influence at all.

    Secularizers insist that the meaning of the First Amendment is plain and the decisions they seek are virtually incontestable. However, the personal beliefs of both plaintiffs and judges in such cases play an important role in explaining why sometimes extreme separationist attitudes have been accepted by the courts.

    Probably the most successful lawyer arguing church-state separation cases since World War II has been Leo Pfeffer of the American Jewish Congress. Rather than a disinterested devotion to the Constitution, Pfeffer has confessed that he has a strong dislike of parochial schools. He argues plausibly that court decisions have brought about a “triumph of Secular Humanism.” In one case brought by the American Civil Liberties Union, the plaintiff was a woman who believed that religious education deforms children’s minds.

    William 0. Douglas was one of the most influential Supreme Court justices in American history. From just before World War II until the late 1970s, he played a key role in a number of cases. Douglas was a thorough Secular Humanist who had little use for organized religion. Equally influential with Douglas during the same period was Justice Hugo Black, who thought only “hypocrites” attend church and that good men do not need to attend.

    Modern Supreme Court decisions strongly reflect the assumptions of eighteenth-century rationalists, especially in their suspicion of religion as a divisive force in public life. For example, the phrase “wall of separation of church and state,” now treated as part of the Constitution itself, was a private metaphor of Thomas Jefferson and received almost no recognition by the Supreme Court until 1947.) Often they have referred to religious bodies as “sects”, a word tending to imply narrowness and fanaticism. Justice Black, in a 1952 case (Zorach v. Clauson), stated explicitly that the Founding Fathers wanted to guard against a situation in which religious believers “would sometimes torture, maim, and kill those they branded `heretics,’ `atheists,’ or `agnostics.’” In a 1971 case (Lemon v. Kurtzman), Chief Justice Warren F. Burger wrote that, while political disagreement was generally a good thing, political division along religious lines is an evil which the courts must protect against.

    Such opinions represent not careful judicial thought but the prejudices of the judges. These prejudices have now been enshrined in court decisions. (Not all the judges or lawyers who subscribe to such opinions are necessarily secularists themselves. Many religious believers have naively allowed themselves to be persuaded to accept the modern judicial revolution as expressing the true meaning of the Constitution.) Religion, guaranteed its liberty by the same First Amendment which forbids union of church and state, is now treated in law as a stepchild. Liberals who glory in the clash of “pluralistic” opinions in the political realm and who continuously seek to expand the scope of freedom of expression simultaneously want to restrict religious freedom as narrowly as possible. Such a desire, which can scarcely be defended logically, appears to stem from a belief that religion is of its nature a dangerous and destructive force. It is a feeling held by people who are personally comfortable only in a society where they sense that religion has no influence.

    There have been blatant attempts to restrict religious freedom in the name of church-state separation. For example, in the mid-1970s Congress began forbidding the use of tax money to finance abortions. Suit was brought to undo that prohibition (McRae v. Galzfano, later McRae v. Harris) on the grounds that it reflected the concerns of religious believers, especially Catholics who were “imposing” their religious beliefs on others. Testimony in the case involved prying into the private lives of congressmen to determine their religious practices. The Supreme Court rejected the claim, but only by a 5-4 vote. Had one man voted differently, religious believers would, in effect, have been prohibited from politics, and only those people motivated by purely secular concerns would be allowed to influence public policy.

    In a 1981 case (Chess v. Widmar), the Court ruled that a state university could not prohibit a student Bible-study group from meeting on campus if it granted meeting space to other groups. A university which granted meeting facilities to Marxists, homosexuals, and all kinds of other student organizations spent thousands of tax dollars to defend an attempt to suppress religious liberty. In another case (Dittman v. Western Washington University, 198O), presumably overturned by the Supreme Court’s Chess ruling, a court held that a state university could impose restrictions on religious groups which it did not impose on other groups, because religious groups pose “a clear and present” to separation of church and state.

    Such cases result directly from what can be called the momentum of judicial secularism. As a result of thirty-five years of such cases, courts tend now to rule automatically against religious organizations and practices. Fanatic secularizers are encouraged to bring more and more outrageous cases. Not only do they show themselves at best indifferent to matters of religious liberty, their aim is obviously to restrict religion to private practice only. Every vestige of religious influence is to be expunged from public life, and religious believers are to be allowed a public voice only to the degree that they accept the secularist consensus. Even the private practice of religion is not completely secure. Some secularizers admit their desire to tax church property, which would probably have the effect of forcing many churches out of existence.

    Largely in response to the enforced secularization of public schools, many Evangelical Protestants began establishing their own schools in the 1970s. This followed an example set earlier by Catholics, Lutherans, Christian Reformed, and some Jews. Such schools have been subject to a great deal of harassment from state agencies, in terms of academic accreditation, building codes, etc. The Federal government has tried to deny such schools tax exemption on the grounds that they are racially segregated. Only determined political action and expensive court cases have prevented many of these schools from being stifled at birth by hostile government officials.

    While the courts have been extremely vigilant against the least signs of religious “entanglement” in politics, they have largely ignored the possibility that certain of their decisions may be giving unfair advantage to secularist groups. (One of the plaintiffs in the earliest post-war separationist case, McCollum v. Board of Education, later became president of the American Humanist Association and a signer of Humanist Manifesto II.)

    Most people think of religion as belief in a personal God and, usually, membership in a church. For separationist purposes the courts think in the same way. Their strictures against “entanglement” generally apply only to organized religion in the traditional sense. However, where religious liberty is concerned, they have extended their definition as broadly as possible. In a decision concerning conscientious objection from military service (Torcaso v. Watkins, 1964), the Supreme Court explicitly listed Secular Humanism as a religion qualifying young men for such exemption. In a similar case (United States v. Seeger, 1965), the Court held that religion merely requires some belief that is the “equivalent” to belief in a Supreme Being, which could include almost anything.

    This being the case, religious believers are entitled to wonder whether Secular Humanism, or some other non-theistic “religion,” is now being given a privileged place in American society. Such a claim, so far, the courts have refused even to consider seriously. Far from being neutral, the American government is now in the position of favoring unbelief over belief and irreligion over religion, although the First Amendment merely requires that the government favor no particular church over other churches.

    The issue becomes particularly explosive in the public schools. Many Christian parents believe their children are being exposed to Secular Humanist ideas under the guise of neutrality. By now practically all public schools have compulsory sex-education classes, taught in a variety of ways. Some parents object to these in principle, believing that sex education is a parental responsibility. Other parents would support such classes, but only if they included strong moral guidance as well as mere information. However, the moral principles of neither group are currently respected, except in cases where parents are able to bring pressure to bear on school officials. Thus students are often exposed to instruction which is morally repugnant to the parents and which tends to undermine parental teaching and authority. In the McCollum case the Court ruled against religious instruction on public-school property during school hours, even though children were not required to attend such classes, in part so that the children who did not attend might not be to embarrassment and harassment. However, the courts have shown no disposition to make a similar ruling in favor of children and parents with regard to sex-education classes. The long range effect of court decisions has been to protect nonbelievers from religious influence in the public schools, while denying believers’ rights to be protected from irreligious influences.

    Some of the sex education in public schools undermines religious belief about sexuality in a passive way. It treats sex merely as a technical function and imparts information without any moral guidance as to its use. Increasingly, however, sex education is explicitly anti-religious. The leading “experts” in the field (such men as Lester Kirkendall and Sol Gordon, signers of Humanist Manifesto II) state bluntly that their purpose is to help students “get over their hangups.” These are precisely the moral principles they learn from their parents or their church. The aim of sex education is now to help young people become “sexually active” in any way they choose, without moral scruple. This guilt-free hedonism is deemed necessary to a psychologically healthy existence. Parents who object strongly to such programs are nonetheless required to support them with their taxes and to allow their children to be part of them. This is a blatant violation of the rights of conscience that courts choose not to notice.

    Sex education manifests the double standard which now affects public policy. In many schools representatives of Planned Parenthood or similar organizations are allowed to conduct programs. These organizations actively promote abortion, contraception, and, implicitly, extra-marital sex. Efforts to ban these groups from the schools have largely been unsuccessful, though spokesmen for religious groups which might counteract this propaganda are banned. Sometimes representatives even of non-religious organizations promoting chastity are excluded. (The plaintiffs in the McRae case, including groups like the American Civil Liberties Union, argued that the personal religious affiliations of Congressmen are relevant to their political activities. Yet the same people do not deem relevant the official Humanist connections of the people who plan and promote sex-education programs in the schools.)

    While sex education is the most sensitive, it is not the only area where values collide in the public schools. Religiously conservative parents are often accused of being “book burners.” Yet the law forbids the use of religious books in the classroom, and some schools even exclude them from the libraries. At the same time, schools may employ books with an anti-religious bias or which otherwise deeply affront parental values.

    Increasingly controversial is the employment of the techniques of “values clarification” in the schools. Although ostensibly “neutral” with regard to values, this technique in fact undermines values children have learned from their parents or from the church. It is a system in which children are encouraged to regard all questions of belief as “open” matters of opinion. Students who appear to be firm in their beliefs are encouraged to call them into question. The ultimate end of such programs is to instill the idea that all values are relative, the result of mere personal choice.

    When criticized, Humanists insist piously that they are committed to no particular position with regard to moral values. Their only desire is to see to it that all beliefs obtain a fair hearing. The myth of neutrality, accepted even by many Christians is the most useful weapon secularists have in dominating public institutions. No policy decision, no matter how apparently innocuous, is devoid of assumptions about values. The determination of what courses should be in a school curriculum, how they should be taught, what textbooks should be used, how teachers should be trained and recruited, what kind of discipline should exist in the school, and a host of other things all give moral tone and direction to the school. There is no such thing as neutrality. Those who assert that there is are, consciously or unconsciously, using that idea to promote their own favored values.

    Among other things, the courts have refused to recognize that banning all manifestations of religion from the public schools is itself a value judgment. Even if teachers are scrupulous in refraining from any even implicit anti-religious stance (not all are), the absence of religion from the school itself conveys a powerful message to students. The modern school has undertaken to instruct students in everything society deems important, from science and foreign languages to first aid and the skills of driving. If religion is absent, it is reasonable to assume, it is because society regards it either as unimportant or false. Throughout history, in all cultures of the world, religion has played a profoundly important part in the lives of people, permeating every aspect of existence. When public schools ignore religion they are doing violence to reality itself and giving their students an inadequate education.

    The standard secularist reply is that students should learn religion at home or in church. That is begging the question. Schools are set up, and children required to attend them, precisely because it is believed that parents are incapable of giving them all the education they need; this is the standard argument for sex education. Many devout parents lack the ability to educate their children in religion in any systematic way. Sunday school or other church-sponsored religious education lasts only at best a few hours a week and cannot compete with five full days of religionless education. Americans increasingly grow up religiously illiterate, often possessing inchoate religious feelings which they have difficulty expressing or understanding.

    When various groups go to court to fight even the blandest and most innocuous prayers in the public schools, or to protest nativity scenes set up in public at Christmas time, they affirm the importance of those symbols. In effect, they argue that such symbols are powerful and have a negative effect on non-believers. But these same secularizers also argue that such symbols are mere tokens which do no good, hence that religious believers should acquiesce in their banishment. Negative symbolism is as powerful as positive. When young people in particular learn that it is forbidden to pray or read the Bible in school, to mention the name of God, or to sing Christmas carols, they cannot help but receive the impression that their society regards religion as something dangerous or unwholesome.

    Many secularists are hypocritical on this issue. They proclaim a neutrality in which all groups have equal rights and none enjoys any privileges. In fact, they have created a situation in which their own godless viewpoint is established by law. Privately, many of them are quite aware of the negative effects these decisions have on religion. They consciously make use of public policy to damage religion, especially among the younger generation. Since the time of the Enlightenment there has always been an opinion in the West that deplores the authority which parents and churches have to form young minds. Now secularists manipulate the law to suppress that influence as much as possible.

    Not all secularists are opposed to the authority of the family, but many are. It is inevitable that militant secularists will attack that authority, because it is the chief means by which religious belief is handed down. Just as there are humanistic psychologists who define religion as a sickness, so there are humanistic psychologists who define family life as essentially a pathology (for example, the Englishman David Cooper, in his book, The Death of the Family).

    Just as court cases have steadily whittled away at the authority of organized religion, so they now whittle away at the authority of families. In Planned Parenthood v. Danforth (1976) the Supreme Court ruled that minor children may receive abortions without parental knowledge or consent. Public agencies now routinely distribute contraceptives to minors without parental knowledge, a process in which the schools often cooperate. The rationale for this is that adolescents are now “sexually active” anyway, and it is necessary that they be protected against pregnancy. But those who use this argument never ask whether sex-education programs are not themselves a major cause of this sexual “activeness.” Furthermore, while such activity is referred to as though it were a regrettable fact of life, some people in sensitive positions actually regard it as a positive good. They want to exclude parents from the process precisely because they fear parents would be a restraining force on their children’s behavior.

    Although it is presently imprudent to say so publicly, many secularists regard it as equally regrettable that parents have the opportunity to inculcate religious beliefs in their children from an early age. The determined secularization of the public schools and the active discouragement of private religious schools aim to minimize that influence as much as possible. Some secularists eagerly look forward to the day when a universal system of government sponsored day-care centers will take responsibility for children’s upbringing soon after they leave the cradle.

    To date, there have been few legal challenges to parental authority in matters of religion. However, in a case involving the refusal of Amish parents to send their children to public schools (Wisconsin v. Yoder, 1972), Justice Douglas wondered whether parents have the right to “impose” their own religious beliefs on their children. The Court ruled in favor of the Amish, but there is little doubt that Douglas’s speculations represent the thinking of at least some secularists.

    To date, there have also been only a few tentative attacks by secularists on the authority which churches have over their members. One reason for fearing the proposed Equal Rights Amendment to the Constitution, however, is that if it were enacted some women would undoubtedly go to court to demand their “right” to become clergy in denominations which do not permit this. Although in general the courts have refrained from intruding into the internal affairs of religious groups, there is no guarantee that future courts would not reverse that practice. Where homosexual-rights laws have been passed in some cities, attempts have been made to force religious schools to hire homosexual teachers. Court rulings on this question, because confined to the local level, have been inconsistent.

    The secularists’ political and judicial onslaught since 1947 would not have been possible except for the inattention and passivity of religious believers. As each new case has been handed down, there have been cries of anguish and outrage but little more. Aside from a few unsuccessful attempts to pass legislation to reverse court decisions, religious believers remained politically uninvolved. Many of them were and are largely oblivious to what was and is happening around them.

    The Supreme Court’s decision recognizing abortion as a woman’s constitutional “right” (Roe v. Wade, 1973, written by Harry Blackmun) probably woke the sleeping religious giant. The various anti-abortion movements have been far more successful than anyone could have predicted in 1973. In addition, concern for the abortion issue has directly stimulated political action on a host of other questions. The systematic pattern of denial of religious values in public life is now becoming apparent even to previously complacent people.

    Most Christians probably find combative political action distasteful. It is also true that the kingdom of God is not achieved by political means. Nonetheless, political activity on behalf of religious values is essential merely to protect those values from being trampled and to insure the continuation of religious liberty. The cries of outrage directed at Christian political-action groups once again indicate that such groups are effective. For the first time in years, secularists are beginning to feel that not everything is going as they would like.

    ACKNOWLEDGEMENT

    Hitchcock, James. “The Law and the Constitution.” Chapter 7 in What is Secular Humanism. (Ann Arbor, MI: Servant Books, 1982), 99-113.

    Reprinted by permission of the author.

    THE AUTHOR

    James Hitchcock is a widely published author on many topics and Professor of History at St. Louis University. James Hitchcock is a member of the Advisory Board of The Catholic Educator’s Resource Center.

    Copyright © 1982 James Hitchcock

    Not all articles published on CERC are the objects of official Church teaching, but these are supplied to provide supplementary information.

  • http://marcum1@wildblue.net coal miner

    Religion,

    “The fable of Christ and his twelve apostles…is a parody of the sun and the twelve signs of the Zodiac, copied from the ancient religions of the Eastern world…. Every thing told of Christ has reference to the sun. His reported resurrection is at sunrise, and that on the first day of the week; that is, on the day anciently dedicated to the sun, and from thence called Sunday…”

    Thomas Paine, The Complete Religious and Theological Works of Thomas Paine

    • Jay

      Wishful Thinking?

  • http://marcum1@wildblue.net coal miner
    • http://marcum1@wildblue.net coal miner

      Religious Myths

    • Jay

      coalminer, don’t drink from poisoned wells.

      • http://marcum1@wildblue.net coal miner

        Jay,

        Agnostic
        Agnostic – Is this philosophical position feasible in light of scientific evidence? A review of the microscopic world, including the Bacterial Flagellum.
        http://www.allaboutphilosophy.org/agnostic.htm – Cached

        • http://?? Joe H.

          coal miner,
          you, my uneducated little pus of a pimple on a mans azz are a very poor excuse for anything that even resembles a man!!

          • Jay

            Thanks Joe, for saying what was on my mind.

  • Jay

    A very interesting article, coal miner, I read it with profit. I suppose, inference of design in complex material is something both the theist and the agnostic can agree on. The definition of designer, or if there is, a designer, seems to be the fly in the ointment. I understand your hatred for religions, after all, human beings have a tendency to create God in their image, so as to suit their purposes. But I could describe you to others, and do things in your name so as to justify my actions, but were you rightly represented?

  • http://marcum1@wildblue.net coal miner

    11

    The Dark Bible: Sex, Obscenities, Filth
    According to interpretations of the Bible, Onan removed his penis from his …. In 4:17 one must infer incest for Cain would have had to have sex with …
    http://www.nobeliefs.com/DarkBible/darkbible4.htm – Cached

    • Jay

      Again, someones personal and univocal perspective. Very limited in scope!

  • WayneT

    Jay, you cannot argue with a lunatic like Coal miner. This type of person only has a one trak mind with tunnel vision. He just does not get it.

    • Jay

      WayneT, that’s the impression I get as well!

  • WayneT

    Go here and watch the video given by Congressman Poe. The video is at the bottom of his statement. I concrns the new light buld that Congress is forcing us to buy fro China beginning in 2013 or 2014. It is explained in the video. http://poe.house.gov/News/DocumentSingle.aspx?DocumentID=229079

    • Jay

      Thanks Wayne, I checked it out. Very disturbing! Clearly, this is nothing more then a take over of our Economy, complete madness!!! The man is a complete menace!!!

      Obama will also propose reducing emissions by 83 percent by 2050 and a 30 percent reduction in 2005 levels by 2025.

      And to help him get this done, he appoints Energy Secretary Steven Chu, who, like a bull in china shop, is methodically bankrupting the coal industry via EPA regulations. Now White House Energy Secretary Steven Chu has made it clear that “massive” amounts of coal-fired plants in the United States will be closed down over the next five to eight years. He does not mention what will replace them, except the vague, clean energy term, whatever that means, just that they will be shut down.

      This clean energy they mention, will not provide adequate supply of energy!

      • WayneT

        Your welcome, Jay. Sorry about my typos. It’s not that I can’t spell. I make typos, and then I don’t go over and check my words well enough and therefore I miss the misspelled words. I have a Gateway Laptop, and I don’t like the keyboard at all. I always have to go back over to see where my mistakes are, and at times I miss some of the misspelled words.

        • Jay

          You’re probably like most of us, we type something really fast, post it, and the wince at the typo’s. And once it’s posted you can’t get at it, to fix it. lol

          • Jay

            See, I did it again. and the, should be, and then post it

          • WayneT

            Jay, I do that all the time. As soon as I post it I see my typos. This makes me really feel dumb, and irritates the heck out of me. Like I said, I hate the keyboard on this Gateway Notebook. I don’t seem to have this problem when I am typing on my desktop. Oh well, I will just try to be more careful before I post. I am in Florida and my desktop is in Pa. I will just have to put up with it for another two months, I will then be going back to Pa.

Bottom
close[X]

Sign Up For Personal Liberty Digest™!

PL Badge

Welcome to PersonalLiberty.com,
America's #1 Source for Libertarian News!

To join our group of freedom-loving individuals and to get alerts as well as late-breaking conservative news from Personal Liberty Digest™...

Privacy PolicyYou can opt out at any time. We protect your information like a mother hen. We will not sell or rent your email address to anyone for any reason.