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Report Deems Death Penalty ‘a Waste Of Money’

November 4, 2009 by  

Report deems death penalty 'a waste of money'A newly released report from the Death Penalty Information Center has concluded that states could save hundreds of millions of dollars by abolishing the death penalty and diverting the funds to more effective anti-violence programs.

Accompanying the report was a nationwide poll of police chiefs, conducted by RT Strategies, that found that most law enforcement officials do not believe the death penalty deters violent crime, and they see it as the least efficient use of taxpayer money.

"With many states spending millions to retain the death penalty, while seldom or never carrying out an execution, the death penalty is turning into a very expensive form of life without parole," says Richard C. Dieter, executive director of the Death Penalty Information Center and the report’s author.

He adds that "at a time of budget shortfalls, the death penalty cannot be exempt from reevaluation alongside other wasteful government programs that no longer make sense."

The center also cites Police Chief James Abbott of West Orange, N.J., who says the state spent $250 million on death penalty-related expenses over 25 years "with nothing to show for it," and added that New Jersey’s murder rate has dropped since capital punishment was abolished.
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  • SS McDonald

    The death penalty would not be so expensive if lawyers were allowed a few weeks, say 6 weeks, to complete all appeals. At the end of 6 weeks given no change, EXECUTE the miscreant. That would save a lot of money (if money is indeed the root purpose of the article). Cease mollycoddling death row inmates: hanging or firing squad is cheaper than “humane lethal injection.”

    • Joe H.

      There are child murderers that live on death row longer than their victims were on this earth!!! Jeff Lundgren from the Kirtland area Morman murders was one good example. He and his followers murdered a whole family of five, I believe. The one girl was,if I remember right, 12 years old and Lundgren admitted doing the crime. He was on death row about 18 years. WHY?!?!? He was guilty without a doubt!! It costs about a million dollars a year to keep a man on death row. That was 18 million wasted! In cases where the person is guilty beyond any doubt as in a admission or more than one admission, EXECUTE!!!!

      • Thurman Marcum

        Joeh,

        Even DNA isn’t fool proof,a hypothetical theory is a woman’s husband is at work and she invites her boy friend in for sex,the boy friend’s DNA is inside the woman .The husband gets off from work early.He saw the boy friend leaving the house and goes in the house and kills his wife.Police arrest the boy friend.The boy friend has a criminal sexual record, gets convicted.Isreali scientist proved DNA evidence can be planted,this can be used by police and over zealous proscutors hoping for a easy conviction.We still can execute a innocent man.

        • JeffH

          We depend on our laws and forensics to guard agains “planted” DNA, although most killers aren’t that calculated in their planning. Realize that nothing in this world is perfect because man IS involved and he isn’t perect.

          • Thurman Marcum

            jeffh,

            How do you explain that one? It wasn’t planned.The husband in a fit of rage beats is wife too death.He tells the police that he saw the boy friend leaving his house,and found his wife naked and dead.The husband’s DNA wouldn’t count’t because he lives there, but her boy’s DNA would be hard to disprove, his sperm is already inside of the woman.He could face the charge of murder in the first degree,which could mean the death penalty.You got remember the boy friend has a criminal sexual record.

          • denniso

            Very good point…

          • JeffH

            That is clearly an exception and not the rule. The boyfriend has screwed himself with his first sexual crime and he better hope the investigators will do him justice and absolve him of the crime, that is if what has transpired as you have stated is a fact. Like I said, good forensics will clear him if he is not guilty.

          • JeffH

            Also, if the husband beat her in a fit of rage, there should be bruises of some type on him also and certainly plenty of evidence to point at the husband. I don’t think there is a very strong possibility ,once all evidence is collected and autopsies and forensics are done, that the boyfreind, even though he has a history, would be charged.

          • JeffH

            Remember Scott Peterson?

          • Thurman Marcum

            Jeffh,

            It could be on the hands,He could have bruises as result of frustration,he saw his wife’s poor lifeless body and starting beating the bed post.Some doctors are not qualified to be forensic experts.There was forensic expert not too long ago said it can be indeed flawed. Nothing is perfect.

          • JeffH

            Thurman Marcum, we could debate differant scenarios for days and find we do not agree. With that, I will kindly agree to disagree. I am all for the death penalty if guilt is proven “beyond a shadow of doubt”.

          • denniso

            For all the anti gov’t here..you don’t mind a state or fed gov’t powerful enough to take your life,even if you are wrongly convicted? There is essentially no statistical doubt that we have executed innocent people..is that OK??

          • denniso

            above..’for all the anti gov’t people here’.

          • JeffH

            Unfortunatly that may happen on the very rarest of occasions. Today, with all of the technology available, forensic science and DNA, and lawyers, unless the investigators totaly drop the ball as in the OJ case, I think the right decisions will be made. Of course, everyone including the jury has to make judgements based on clear and concise evidence, beyond a shadow of a doubt.

        • Joe H.

          Did the boyfriend admit guilt?

          • Thurman Marcum

            joeh,

            The boy friend would naturally deny it,but look at his record. The husband could have been a model citizen and beyond reproach.He could have blood all over him as resulting of murdering his wife,his explanation trying to revive his poor wife.Now who would the police blame?

          • Joe H.

            The fact remains that murderers like Lundgren, and Manson admitted their role, as a matter of fact Manson bragged about it !!!! There are others like them out there also. why shouldn’t these two be executed? Give me a GOOD reason. I asked if the boyfriend admitted the crime because if he did then he has no one to blame but himself. Let’s face it if he had a record before, he made one heck of a mistake by jumping into bed with a married woman!! That in itself is a crime in some states. just because the law doesn’t enforce it doesn’t mean the law isn’t on the books and as such they can!!

          • Joe H.

            Also the pattern of blood on the husband wouldn’t match patterns of a man trying to revive his wife or holding her in grief. The patterns of blood on the husband would be splatters not stains. A first year forensic Dr. could find that evidence. The bruises on the wife would match the size of the husbands hands not the boyfriends.

        • Joe H.

          Marcum
          did you even read my post? Are you high or drunk? I didn’t mention DNA, I talked about a man that was found guilty AND ADMITTED DOING THE CRIME!!!! Do you get it now?

          • Thurman Marcum

            joeh

            Have you heard of Henry Lucas? He confess to two-hundred serial murders of women,that would make him the most prolific serial killer in history,but there one little catch,a police detective and a mother of one of the victims did a little investigation of their own.He wasn’t at any of these places.One fact his left arm was usless and he had a glass eye.He was a small timid man and over powering a healthy woman would be virtually nil.He how ever did kill his mother and her her boy friend.He also kill his boy friend,Henry was gay, the police wanted to get a quick confession and they found their boy.I rely on science and not just confessions.They also planted tainted evidence.Heny, the last I heard died in prison.

          • Thurman Marcum

            joeh,

            You are about the rudest and most ignorant person I have ever had a correspondence with.What about those innocent two-hundred people that were on death row,they were found guilty and some actually confess.Anybody disagree with you, even mildly you are ready to tear their heads off.You don’t know every thing.You come up with that phoney religion of yours,which has been proven false time and time again.Go peddle your insults and drivel some where else.Its great to live in a free country as long you agree with every one,if not that would be a different matter.

          • Joe H.

            Marcum,
            His hands were covered in powder residue, his followers confirmed he did it, He took the cops to the grave and the gun had his prints on it!!
            He said the lord made him do it. I don’t care if he was psyco either. If a dog is tortured and bites everyone cries that it should be put down, but now here is a man that killed people for no reason other than they would not follow his “teachings” and you want to be forgiving? Like I said earlier I hope you never have someone raped and murdered.

          • Joe H.

            Thurman Marcum,
            Please tell me where I said I was a Morman!!! I said they were the morman murders. No where did I say I was a morman. I sugest you read a little closer!!!

    • Liza

      I AGREE!!!

      The only reason that the death penalty is so expensive is because of the appeal process brought forth BY LAWYERS!

      Texas, where I live, puts criminals to death on average of once a week!

      To consider the due process of law a budgetary consideration is LUDICROUS!!!

      What is next? Reducing the sentences of child molesters to “cut down on costs?”

      PLEEEEEEAAAAAAAAAAASSSSSSSSSEEEEEEE!!!

  • JM Senior

    I agree with SS. A review of the trial should be conducted and if there are no major errors of jurisprudence, carry out the sentence. I would give up to 6 months or one year knowing how slow our legal system works. None of this twenty-plus years of appeals on minor technical matters. I have always seen the counter of nondeterance to the assertion of the death penalty, however, I have never seen a study about how many future crimes might have been prevented had the death penalty been enforced. I don’t know how many times I have read where the person being arrested had a previous conviction for killing someone else. Prevention of subsequent crimes is a deterant in my book. Since a high percentage of crime seems to be perpetratede by a small percentage of the population, I think a reduction in the number of violent criminals would result in a large decreas in violent crimes being commmitted.

  • Mark

    That is ridiculous and a bunch of liberal hogwash! SS McDonald is right, but I would give them up to a year to go through the appeal process! You want tell us that $40K – $55K+ per year per prisoner for the life of a prisoner is cheaper than executing the guy/gal?!!! Again, it is the appeal process that makes it so expensive, but when prisoners can and many do, sue the Corrections department for the cake being too small, or the color of their cell is offensive, then the cost to keep that prisoner in prison goes up dramatically. Those “anti-violence” programs are money pit, that in all honesty, have a very poor, “bang for the buck” ratio (no pun intended). No one should sit on death row for more than a year, as that is curel and inhuman punishment. The Appeal process should have a year to complete, and if unsuccessful, then sentence should be carried out. The Death Penalty isn’t supposed to be a deterence anyway, it is a “Punishment” for those who have elected of their free will to destroy the life of another (others). We need to stop “Warehousing” our societial garbage, and milking taxpayers to reward them for being criminals ~ 3 square meals a day, clothing, housing and host of other things most of us would have to pay for ourselves if we wanted! Those who do violent crimes ~ murder, rape – especially pedophiles, get one year of appeals after their initial conviction then it is time to execute them!

    • s c

      Why do we waste money on those who tend to be the proven dregs of society? Since when is the idea of 3 hots and a cot not good enough for them? Let them eat MREs! Outsource them to the south pole. Criminal justice in the US is so messed-up that you can get better health care and more ‘privileges’ than a law-abiding citizen. Let so-called ‘pillars of the community’ like George flippin’ Soros fund that crap.
      The basic root of the problem is a system in which common sense has been abandoned so politicians and their scumbag friends will benefit – NOT the American people. And the problem goes on and on.
      Spineless weasels need to be reminded that a SPEEDY TRIAL and a speedy EXECUTION OF SENTENCE gets results. Shakespeare was more than RIGHT. He should have lived longer. He’d DEMAND that we rid ourselves of ALL lawyers.

    • Joe H.

      Mark,
      Try the tune of 1 million clams a year for death row!!!!

    • denniso

      Mark…Brilliant comment!!!Liberal hogwash?? do you mean as opposed to conservative hogwash???

      • JeffH

        denniso: Please,if you can’t contribute with anything more than critisizm of anothers comments, then let us not start rehasing old posts. Try, for once, not to instigate or agitate these posts and make any of this personal!

        • denniso

          JeffH, could you kindly just pay attention to your own posts..I’ll write what I please,thank you.

          • Joe H.

            yeah JeffH. he will, no matter how inane they are!!!!

    • Liza

      Cudos!!! If I am going to be executed, I want it done ASAP!

      Appeal process is RIDICULOUS!

  • DaveH

    One thing to consider is that juries are much more cautious about rendering a guilty verdict if the suspect’s life is at stake. Personally I think juries should be very cautious regardless of the punishment. The suspect is Innocent Until Proven Guilty; at least that’s the lip service we have gotten most of our lives. But in this age of DNA testing, maybe we can get more solid convictions.

    I have been the victim of liars twice in my life (just monetary repurcussions) so I am very aware that the Justice System is not always just.

    • denniso

      DaveH…I agree..w/o a perfect justice system how can we put people to death..isn’t it a little permanent as a punishment,if we get it wrong??

      • s c

        I’m sorely tempted to comment on how you reason, but I’ll simply put it to you that it is a complete WASTE of time to think or talk about PERFECT JUSTICE. If you can find a utopia on this planet, then perhaps you can have a reason to think or talk about it.
        When it comes to serious crime(s), a good rule of thumb is ‘let the punishment fit the crime.’ Haven’t you yet learned that we’ll always have guilty people and scummy lawyers who will line up to play the criminal justice system like a cheap violin? You must lead a very sheltered life to mention ‘perfect justice.’ Get real!

        • denniso

          sc..reason??you??

        • denniso

          SC..read your own post again…

        • denniso

          The point is,SC, that w/ a flawed justice system, how can you justify executing people when,by all odds you will wind up having the State execute some innocent people..in your name,since you’re a taxpayer and citizen.

          • Liza

            Are you aware of our technological capabilities these days?

    • JeffH

      If the evidence “proves beyond a shadow of doubt” with the forensic capabilities and DNA, give them 1 years worth of appeals and if nothing is changed, pull the switch, push the needle in, set off the gas or just string ‘em up! Bye bye bad guy!

      • Palin12

        Right on Jeff. Better yet strap them into “Ole Sparky” like they did with Bundy.

  • web

    One year is too long, Grant one appeal and if not sucessfull, good night.

  • Disgusted

    The Death Penalty is a joke. Appeal, appeal and appeal takes it out to 25+ years before (or if) it every really happens costing the tax payer the attorney fees to represent the criminal and the judges salaries to listen to it – not to mention all the other ancillary staff it takes to process each appeal; at the same time we are paying for the criminals housing, meals, medical/dental coverage, cable TV, exercise equipment, and on and on and on and on. Rediculous. There should be a time limit for the appeal process and once that runs out put the penalty into effect…period.

    • denniso

      I wonder if you were on death row because of a faulty prosecution or tainted evidence, would you still push so hard for a definite timeline for review of your case??doubt it!!

      • JeffH

        I think that if one were on death row, one certainly wouldn’t lobby for a timeline. That would be the logical choice of a death row inmate I would think.

  • ONTIME

    The joke is the part when the proof is undeniable and the relatives of these victims is made to suffer intermiable appeal for a guilty vicious muderer. Proof and evidence is always a means of staving off a mistake made by a trial proceeding that demands death but when that evidence is profusely abundant and the facts are irreversible, then the continued legal twisting of that verdict should be denied, murder is a crime in which an eye for an eye is not unreasonable, justice in this matter may be blind but it can also hear the cry of the victim.

    • JeffH

      So true.

    • Joe H.

      ONTIME,
      So true. I just wish the courts would take up your name…ONTIME!!! instead of always late!!

  • David

    Of course we should always support the government put down of anyone that might complicate the facts at a later time. (Timothy McVey?)(sic)

    “We should never tolerate outrageous conspiracy theories…” You know, any of those evil ideas that conflict with OUR outrageous conspiracy theory.

    My point is that any criminal desperate enough to commit a crime is likely to think of a method to get away with it. If they have enough collaborators, the likelihood of success goes WAY up. The best plan to do that involves a patsy, so the police don’t keep looking for the real culprit.
    If that happens, (and there is NO death penalty) then even after conviction, there is always at least ONE person (the patsy) investigating the crime for the rest of their life. It is also important to note that any investigation from here costs the state nothing.
    If, however, the patsy is executed, then even most of their friends and sympathizers would consider any continuing investigation to be pointless. True criminal gets off scott free.

    If we do not execute, then even if we DON’T find the true culprit, they will be worried about being found out, and will experience the stress of the possibility of losing everything for a very long time. A little justice insurance, if you will.

  • Jack Kinch(1uncle)

    Give them a fair trial and do it. Why pay lawyers to delay the process?

    • s c

      Jack, I’d be surprised if the DPIC it isn’t yet one more bleeding heart, head-in-the-sky group. The major point that anti-death psychotics could never understand is the idea that a death sentence was NEVER designed to be so overpowering that we’d someday have no more need for it. The central idea is that THAT WORTHLESS SOB WILL NEVER MURDER ANYONE AGAIN – EVER.
      Even God Almighty, in His infinite wisdom, tried to tell us that in the days of the Old Testament, the death penalty wouldn’t end the need for the threat of a death sentence.
      Ultraliberals and assorted delusionals want us to think that a death penalty can’t be justified if it doesn’t stop murders. Couple that world-class stupidity with a criminal justice system that dotes on delays in the execustion of a death sentence [and trial lawyers getting RICH in the process], and you get exactly what we have – A FAILED, CORRUPT SYSTEM that “only lawyers and politicians and their camp-followers can correct.” They’ll never get it because they don’t want to get it. They’re too happy screwing-up society and helping their worthless ‘pals’ get stinking RICH at our expense.
      Aren’t these the same slimers who love abortions and yet hate the death sentence? BARF! HYPOCRITES! VERMIN!

  • Robin from Indiana

    The Appeals process needs to be changed. A time limit should be set and adhered to. The ones benefiting from a long drawn out appeals process are the lawyers and the inmates knowing that they are making money off the tax payers (the lawyers) and 3 squares a day with room and board (the inmates). Prison seems to be a little too cushy. Maybe if it wasn’t so appealing, criminals would think twice about committing any kind of crime.
    And maybe if the death penalty was enforced more often and much quicker than in the past, we would see less violent crime!

  • Palin12

    Why the hell is Richard Ramirez, the Night Stalker, still alive more than 20 years since his death sentence?? It makes me boiling mad! Here in Nevada, we got a fellow that killed his own daughter by strangulation because he didn’t like her being a Showgirl. The jury sympathized with him and gave this monster life. These murderers may look like, walk like, and talk like human beings, but they are just masses of useless protoplasm. I hope that fellow gets Dahmer-style justice.

    • DaveH

      Don’t forget Charles Manson.

      • JeffH

        Manson always seems to be incarecerated within an hour of where I live here in California. Unfortunatly he became a speciman for phycologists and still confuses them.

        • Joe H.

          JeffH
          He should be incinerated near where you live!! after a needle in the arm of course! I think it’s called cremation!!!

          • JeffH

            Can I pull the plug on him?

  • s c

    Palin 12, these anti-death sentence people have 1) been brainwashed by politicians, or 2) they’ve been victimized by a religious nut, or 3) they’re d-u-h by choice. Remember RFK? What happened to the engineer of that travesty?
    We seem to have people among us who have so little common sense that they think ANYTHING is better than admitting that the death penalty needs to be used occasionally. It’s almost as though they’ve been dumbed-down by a mary poppins mentality. I’ve never understood how someone who has only one foot in the real world can claim to be responsible.
    Any further thoughts on the topic?

  • john

    A liberal is just a conservative who hasn’t been mugged and a conservative is just a liberal who hasn’t been arrested as the saying goes. It is clear in the Constitution that death was considered an appropriate punishment, but many other things were also considered appropriate at that time.
    I have no love loss for guilty heinous killers getting the ultimate punishment, however, we have seen in recent years with DNA evidence and other advancements that guilty people can be convicted. Eyewitness testimony, once thought to be the best, turns out to be some of the worst. And those given the duty and authority to carry out justice have demonstrated a propensity to be worse than the criminals in honesty and integrity.
    What bothers me most is that some people are unable to be exonerated by DNA evidence. It is foolish to think that so many convicted are being proven innocent, but not to acknowledge that we are allowing many others to suffer unjustly from the same flawed system. And of course there is the different justice for different folks thing.
    We are getting farther behind in most every category compared to other civilized nations and capital punishment is just one of many areas. A violent, largest, prison population in the world is not a result of lax laws and lawyers. It is by-product of an immoral society where people are not instilled with a sense of right and wrong and a conscience accompanied with a demand for perfection when nobody is cpable of meeting that standard completely.
    An overwhelmed justice system means only two things. The rules are to unreasonable to live by, or the society is not able to play by reasonable rules. As a one time law student my opinion is that lawyers and politicians have a vested interest in setting standards which many people cannot adhere to, so it insures they have plenty of business. You can barely get through the day without violating some law, ordinance, regulation, rule, statute, common law or other punishable offense. Hopefully nobody is watching all the time and nobody finds out each time. And then sometimes the authorities just go after innocent people and use jailhouse snitches and witnesses for hire.
    A witness cannot receive one penny for testimony against another, but they can have years shaved off their sentences and charges reduced. You tell me which has more value. A penny or time and punishment reductions? It’s a scam. wake up! Before it’s you.

    • denniso

      John, excellent comment..

  • Joe H.

    john,
    Murder is too high a standard to meet?!?!?!? We’re not talking about executing jay walkers here. I only hope you and denniso don’t lose a family member or a very close friend to a murderer. I’ve lost a very close friend years ago to a child rapist and murderer and a very bleeding heart jury gave him life with parole eligibility after 20 years. If they give him parole another good person will be a victim of his, the girls father cause he will find him and give him the punishment he really deserves! This is a real travesty of justice. the man covered her in a shallow grave and let her family think for three years she had run away. The only charity he deserves is a free bullet to the brain pan!!!

  • http://PersonalLibertyDigest Lois A. Cowan

    Whether or not the dealth penalty deters crime is entirely beside the point. If someone knowingly, willingly and with malice and forethought intentionally takes another person’s life, then, the murderer must also give up his life. It is a PUNISHMENT: the ultimate punishment for the ultimate crime. The amount of pain and suffering these guys cause not only the victim, but also everyone who knew and loved that victim, is heinous and immeasurable. Add to that the fact that many victims are randomly chosen, and their lives extinguished merely to satisfy some immature, selfish jerk’s “troubles”, rather than for him to take adult and appropriate action to solve his stupid problems without anyone having to die for it. I have no pity fo murderers.

  • denniso

    Have those shouting loudest for the death penalty even heard of the 200 or so men released after years in prison or on death row because of DNA testing? Doesn’t that tell you that we have probably executed innocent people before DNA came into use? How is it that the rest of the ‘civilized world’ has banned it and we stand w/ countries like China and Iran in our use of execution??make you feel good?

    • JeffH

      Death Penalty Permitted
      http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0777460.html
      Afghanistan
      Antigua and Barbuda
      Bahamas
      Bahrain
      Bangladesh
      Barbados
      Belarus
      Belize
      Botswana
      Burundi
      Cameroon
      Chad
      China (People’s Republic)
      Comoros
      Congo (Democratic Republic)
      Cuba
      Dominica
      Egypt
      Equatorial Guinea
      Eritrea
      Ethiopia
      Gabon
      Ghana
      Guatemala
      Guinea
      Guyana
      India
      Indonesia
      Iran
      Iraq
      Jamaica
      Japan
      Jordan
      Korea, North
      Korea, South
      Kuwait
      Laos
      Lebanon
      Lesotho
      Libya
      Malawi
      Malaysia
      Mongolia
      Nigeria
      Oman
      Pakistan
      Palestinian Authority
      Qatar
      St. Kitts and Nevis
      St. Lucia
      St. Vincent and the Grenadines
      Saudi Arabia
      Sierra Leone
      Singapore
      Somalia
      Sudan
      Swaziland
      Syria
      Taiwan
      Tajikistan
      Tanzania
      Thailand
      Trinidad and Tobago
      Uganda
      United Arab Emirates
      United States
      Vietnam
      Yemen
      Zambia
      Zimbabwe

      • Thurman Marcum

        Jefh,

        Even for dope,Malayasia is one of them.

      • denniso

        Jeffh..thanks for the list…I really can’t wait to move to or visit those enlightened and civilized countries that execute people..Sudan,North Korea,Saudi Arabia, here I come!!!

        • Joe H.

          Oh come on denniso, I thought you libbers thought Cuba was a wonderland, especially medical wise!!!!!

          • s c

            JoeH, ultralibs do see Cuba as a medical wonderland. However, as is usually the case with most ultralibs, there are some points they don’t want brought up in a conversation.
            In particular, one topic they don’t want to discuss is AIDS. In Fidel’s ‘paradise,’ people who get AIDS are QUARANTINED. Gee, I wonder why an ultralib wouldn’t want to talk about that.
            Could it be that rose-colored glasses tend to distort one’s vision? Could it be that too much reality is more than an ultralib can tolerate?
            Whatever it is, I find it invigorating to remind ultralibs that an open discussion on almost any topic is more than a typical ultralib can handle.
            Besides, if Cuba is that great a place to live, Havana isn’t that far off. Ultralib ‘leaders’ like Baaney Fwank might find Cuba interesting. Of course, he might have to alter his lifestyle. Baaney could always try to convince Fidel that his ‘tent’ isn’t open quite as wide as it is here in America.
            Somehow, I don’t think Fidel would like the idea of a gringo telling him how to run his sunny, little country (I could be wrong). Go, Baaney, go! Enlighten Fidel. Make him stop discriminating.

        • JeffH

          There was also a long list of countries that don’t have death penalties. I would be willing to bet I could get some contributions for your transportation to one of those countries and provide letters of recommendation for your permanent residance application. Think about it.

          • denniso

            America,love it or leave it,again?? Seems like you guys have plenty that you hate about this country…are you planning to leave for Sudan? oh, i forgot, this is YOUR country and you plant to take it back.

          • Joe H.

            denniso,
            No I just thought the way you libbers talk about how good the health care is in Cuba, you liked it there, you and your buddy the “movie maker”!!!!

      • CindyL

        Jeff, I find your list very informative. Please look at this link as it shows all the muslim countries, most are on the above list. Also, China, Cuba, Korea, Lao and Vietnam are all communist countries. http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Majority_Muslim_countries

        I hate to be lumped in with all those types of countries, but that’s the way it goes.

        We need to reform the prison system, go back to the chain gang attitude, make them work on our highways and not sit in comfort of an a/c jail.

        • DaveH

          Cindy,
          There’s a problem with chain gangs that is not often brought up. If the government can make money with prisoners, it gives them an incentive to lock people up for every excuse possible. In fact this has happened in our country. Or think of the former USSR and their labor camps.
          I have no problem with hard labor but it should be something useless like breaking rocks.

          • JeffH

            Something to ponder for sure. Unfortunatly, there will always be the “man factor”, that being translated as an individual or group that has an ulterior motive based on greed.

          • CindyL

            Dave, most states have them making license plates and I see no problem with their labor contributing to their upkeep. If I am having to help pay to feed and house them, I think they should be forced to make a contribution. We have taken sentencing of the crimes from the judges and made it a one size fits all, which doesn’t seem to be working. Do you really think if they worked on the highways, instead of making plates that the government would try to incarcerate more people? I believe that they should not be allowed to lift weights, watch tv or have more than one hour out of their cells. Call, me a hard &*& but it seems like the deterent of prison is not working.

        • Palin12

          Some of those monsters even get free cable TV. I believe next week the DC sniper, Muhammed, gets the needle! Hooray, I’m buying a bottle of champagne that day! Burn baby burn!!!

    • s c

      Those who whiz and moan for ‘perfect justice’ are guilty of seeking absolution via a corrupting, utopian theory. There is no such thing as perfect justice. Let me guess. You love abortions, but you hate the death sentence (right?).
      Would America be a better nation if you had been aborted? On the other hand, if you committed a monstrous crime, how would America be hurt by your death?
      Babies don’t commit crimes, yet they are sacrificed on a “loving, compassionate and MAINSTREAM altar of people-hating insanity.” What kind of life form hates babies?
      Do you find it hard to be logical? Your philosophy was created before the dawn of civilization. Now, your masters in Washington are sorting out the rulers from the ruled. And soon, these masters of “compassion” will expect Americans to be their slaves. You will have to make a quick decision, as your masters will look at you as just another late-term abortion. Food for thought, eh? You can think, can’t you? You’re not a baby, and you were given a second chance. Think. Reason. Throw off your chains, slave.

      • denniso

        SC..no one ‘loves’ abortion,get real. The debate over it centers on whether the gov’t can tell a woman what to do w/ her body..You and many others on this site hate big gov’t, so you should applaud keeping gov’t out of our personal life. Shouldn’t you?

        • Joe H.

          It’s also about telling that baby in some cases that they don’t have the right to live. I suggest you look up the story of the lady that survived a saline abortion. She is scarred and she has problems, but she is a contributing member of society!!! Check it out and then tell me it isn’t about murder!!!

          • CindyL

            Joe, don’t be offended when I say this, but the Libertarians are correct on the subject of abortion. I am a Christian and don’t agree with it for me, for me being the point. No political party or religion should tell a women what to do with her body. You cannot legislate moral ideas or actions. I wonder how men would like it if government were telling them that they couldn’t have Viagra, penile implants, or must get vasectomies, after having children with genetic problems?. It is not up to someone else to make a moral decision for you, that is between you and your God. If you could legislate ethics we wouldn’t have congressmen having affairs, stealing our money, lying, cheating, and we would be in pretty good shape. Like I said, abortion is not for me, but who am I to force someone to believe like me? We are all supposed to be equal.

          • denniso

            Right on,CindyL…men telling women what to do w/ their bodies should itself be outlawed and left to the countries like Iran and Afghanistan and somalia. Pity those enslaved women.

          • Joe H.

            Cindy,
            I never said I was Libertarian. Don’t make assumptions! I HAVE a handicapped son and we take care of him to the best of our ability and are his legal guardians in all decision making matters. Before you ask if I am willing to take care of those children born to parents that don’t want them the answer is an emphatic YES. See, I grew up different than you. My mother died when I was five years old and the court said I couldn’t live at home as my father worked nights. So I lived in everything from an Eastern star villa to foster parents homes, going home most weekends. One family I lived with wanted badly to adopt and because the wife was deaf, they couldn’t adopt. If anyone could have ever replaced my own family it would be them and I still love them today. So when I say I have a different outlook on life than you, believe it!

          • CindyL

            Joe, I didn’t say you were a Libertarian. Please read my post again. I said the Libertarians are correct on this issue. I am sorry for your childhood, your son and your mother. I will not divulge mine, as it is personal, but I will stand by my assertation that no one has the right to force someone to do something to their own body that they don’t want to. Our Constitution guarrantees that we have individual freedoms, that includes our bodies and not just our speech and thoughts.

          • Joe H.

            Cindy,
            Think about what you just said there. since we can’t legislate morality… What are we doing with laws? Why make it illegal then to rob a bank or to commit murder? We legislate morality every day from speed laws to mass murder and their punishments!

        • Joe H.

          Cindy,
          Show me what line or paragraph says that you have the right to murder or that you have the right to an abortion! If you can do that, perhaps I might agree with you.

    • Thurman Marcum

      Denniso,

      Some criminals prefer execution rather then spend the rest of their lives in prison.Fred Wood of New York and Steven Judy of Indiana.Fred Wood said he wanted ride that lightning and he made his last remark.”Now gentlemen you are about to see the effects of electricity on Wood”.These two doom men beg to be executed.We need to make these prison much more harsher than make it like a resort.A lot of these criminals are getting a free college education and writing silly books.A serial killer,Kenneth Mcduf is one of them,he was on death row and was release from prison,for the dealth penalty was declared unconstitutional.McDuff had kill three teenagers and after he got out,he killed seven more,these were women.He is now back on death row.I don’t believe in the death penalty,that is too easy.MAKE THEM PAY.

      • jhat

        TM, I think those that freed Kenneth Mcduf should be held accountable and felony charges made against them for aiding and abbeting McDuf.

        • Thurman Marcum

          jhat,

          Keneth Mcduff had a high IQ it was near one hundred and fifty.He was a big man and had a bad reputation.He and a friend murdered three kids,two boys and one girl.The girl was rape and he had ram a broom handle down her throat,she was only sixteen.For this he was sentence to death. The death penalty was abolished.A few Years later he was out on parole and was going to college.This college tuition was paid with tax payers’ money of course.It wasn’t long young girls starting turning up missing.He was charge with seven murders and is now on death row in Texas.

          • JeffH

            Again, those responsible for his release should be held accountable as well as McDuf. The repeal of the death sentance law should have changed he death sentances to life without parole.

    • Joe H.

      dennisob,
      So that means that people that are guilty by admission shouldn’t be executed? Get your head out of the sand!

      • denniso

        JH…ever heard of forced confessions??NO? ever hear of mentally ill people who confess to something they didn’t do??

        • CindyL

          denniso, we just had a teenager confess to a murder, that he didn’t commit. The police had beat him down so much that to make them quit he just said he did it. Three weeks later they caught the real culprit and the DNA had come back with both of theirs on the weapon, so the poor kid could have done time for a crime he didn’t do. He was just lucky that the other guy was caught.

          • Thurman Marcum

            Cindyl,

            Henry Lucas confess to two hundred serial murders.A police detective and one of the victims mother didn’t buy it.They prove it was virtually impossible for him to commit these crimes. He was on death row.He is now deseased.

  • http://www.easyinvest.co.za pete

    Either way it remains an expensive exercise and we are not very circumspect when it comes to spending money we dont have so what is the difference?

  • Joe H.

    pete,
    there is one thing to consider. The old chain gang. When it was in practice most convicts did everything they could to not re offend. Now I’ve heard of convicts committing a small crime after being released as it’s too hard on the outside for them. That tell you the prison system is too easy on the cons and should be toughened. This is not supposed to be a vacation!!!

    • Lynn

      I am against abortion… therefore I am against the death penalty anything else for me would be hypocritical. For me, just one person wrongfully committed and put to death just isn’t worth it. Fixing the system AFTER a wrongful execution is too late.
      BUT! I agree with Joe H. Let’s bring back the chain gang. If our streets need to be repaired, if our ditches need to be dug; if our garbage needs to be picked-up that’s your life if you’re convicted. Put them in black and white stripes, throw a chain around their ankles and parade them around the community they disrespected. Bring back hard labor. If you go to jail everyday should be 10 hours at hard labor. Give every prisoner a supply of rocks and they don’t get fed or get to go to bed until they’ve met their quota of ten pounds of gravel per day. All prisoners should plant, grow and harvest their own food too. Jail should be a deterrent, it should be a punishment and their incarceration should benefit society and not just be a drain of tax dollars.

      • denniso

        Is geting raped repeatedly in prison tough enough punishment?

        • Joe H.

          Denniso
          and how many of them raped and murdered? Did their victims have a chance to avoid it? Again get your head out of the sand!!

  • SamP

    I have been reading all of your banter and decided to add some of my own. The liberal point of view is always of regreat and guilt for fear of false conviction. In the past this did occure on occasion and happens much less today, but justice is never perfect and if that is what the liberal minded are waiting for then they are gunna be waiting for ever because that day will never come. Just as a war never ends without collateral damage, so to will justice never be perfect. The appeals process is a joke and I agree that it needs to be improved. It is, after all, were most of the wasted money goes. I do know one thing and that is that if I had been falsly occused and was convicted to death and my appeals failed I would gladly go to my death. Why do I say this, because I have faith in the system we have, and I would die happy knowing that at least some of the people who think that they have the right to take the life of another are getting the punishment that they justly deserve. An eye for an eye works for me or as some say the punishment fits the crime. The great thing about our justice system is that we can and do change it. When mistakes are made and some one dies becuase of false accusation then we as the free people we are can make changes to fix the loop hole and work out the bugs.

    • JeffH

      SamP, pretty well said and thoughtout.

  • Joe H.

    There was a shooting today at Ft Hood Tx. At least 7 dead and as high as 20 to 30 wounded. announcer said they didn’t know if it is terrorists, disgruntled soldiers or what. had M-16 rifles.

    • JeffH

      Last I heard was an unhappy Major with a couple of handguns, M9′s maybe, possibly with 2 accomplises. A travesty for sure.

      • libertytrain

        JeffH – here’s what’s online currently – not much help but kind of shocking -” The gunman, slain by emergency personnel, was identified as Maj. Nidal Malik Hasan, 39, a law enforcement source told CNN.
        Licensed in Virginia, Hasan was a psychiatrist who previously worked at Walter Reed Army Medical Center but more recently was practicing at Darnall Army Medical Center at Fort Hood, according to professional records.

        Hasan was scheduled to be deployed to Iraq “and appeared to be upset about that,” Sen. Kay Bailey Hutchison, R-Texas, said.”

        • Thurman Marcum

          liberty,

          Obama wanting to send 80,000 troops to Afganistan.I don’t like this one bit.We are going have more of this.The shooter is a psychitrist.We need to bring our troops home now.We are losing a lot of our kids and not counting the strain on our economy.

          • JeffH

            Obama won’t send 80,000 troops to the middle east, not even 40,000. That being said, I can agree to bring all of our troops home and concentrate the efforts to protect ourselves and our allies. Russia couldn’t sustain a war in Afghan and it is breaking our backs. You either commit to victory or draw back and save our men and women from further harm. Run black ops to hunt down our enemies, and concentrate on our economy and getting Americans back to work first.
            As for Iraq, we are much too close to meeting our goals to leave them hanging now. A timeline is in place in Iraq.

          • libertytrain

            Thurman – I hadn’t heard he made a decision – it’s a difficult situation – remember I have two of mine there now -

        • Joe H.

          He hasn’t and he rejected the advice of his generals on the ground there like HE knows better than them what is needed there. What a crock! I pray for your children to be safe there! God Bless!!!

  • Joe H.

    Thurman,
    yeah let’s not finish THIS job too! The only problem is these people will follow them home and strike here!! You got a family? You want to see them mangled by IEDs or other explosives? If these middle easterns won’t respect us then we have to make them fear us. Fear that we will annihilate their very country if they follow us home!!!! Look at what the Jewish people did over there when their athletes were murdered. They went around the world hunting them down and killing the perps. The people that sent them knew what to expect the next time they tried something like that. It was only after the U.S. under the week kneed liberals stuck their nose into it and showed the U.S. was against that kind of thing that it started back up!

    • DaveH

      Joe,
      I agree with the idea of instilling fear (respect). But we could do that a lot cheaper in both human costs and monetary costs. When they mess with us, we should go in and take out 3 for every 1 of us. Then get the hell out. No nation building. It isn’t going to work anyway. As soon as we leave (if ever) they will just go back to being what they were.

      • JeffH

        I agree. Operate like the Israelis do and damn the critics.

      • Joe H.

        DaveH
        the only problem with that is they don’t value life the same as we do. that’s why they always seem to have plenty of human bombs. the main reason that Russia didn’t win is they didn’t care about the kids, they planted toys with bombs purposely trying to kill or maim kids. At least the women and regrettably the kids that we have killed have been as collateral damage not by planting toys. The whole world was against Russia even us!

  • Thurman Marcum

    joeh,

    People like Manison and others wanted to be excuted,a lot of child killers are kept from the prison population and Manison is one of them. He gave orders to kill a pregnant woman .They can be release into the prison population and your worries would be over. I say hard labor would be much better.

  • JohnW

    It is incomprehensible to me that there remain those who would defend against the death penalty. Those against whom it might be preferred are brought up here, they know the rules, they choose to break them. In what terms is it sensible to believe that they are somehow retrievable? We cannot afford to continue to house them. We cannot afford to defend them. We cannot afford in these imbecilic times even to prosecute them. Line ‘em up and shoot ‘em. I don’t need them around my grandchildren.

  • SamP

    The troops that President Obama said he would send if needed durring his election run are all volentiers. No one made them sign up and I’m pretty shure they understand that after going through basic training that at some point and time they might have to use the guns and everything else learned in order to defend the ideals of freedom that we so much enjoy. One of those is the freedom of speach which some peopl use without understanding its true worth. One of my friends died surving his country and the freedoms that come with it. He made the ultimate sacrifice with his own life for what he belived in. It’s easy for any one to say bring the troops home. I don’t want anyone else to die either, but damn it how many times does one get slaped in the face before you put your hand up to protect yourself. I guess it just takes some people longer than others to want to defend themselves. In my opinion the sooner more troops are sent out to help the sooner the country is stabalized and the sooner we can get the job done the right way, and by the right way I mean finish what we start. If we get out now it will end up being just like Vietnam is that what we really want, I don’t think so. Let the real armed forces do thier job. After all thats what they signed up to do is deffend you, me, and all that is left of freedom.

    • JeffH

      The middle east has been waring for centuries and can never be stabilized.

      • Joe H.

        JeffH
        They said Viet Nam couldn’t be beaten either as they had been fighting since the times of Genghis Kanh. If they had fought it like a war is supposed to be fought, we could have won. Figure this, we won every major battle we engaged in. Every one! If you listen to the documentary titled “Viet Nam the 10,000 Day War”, you will hear the former commanding general of the NVA say if we had kept up the bombing raids on Hanoi and the trail they would have been begging to come to the bargaining table, but like a miracle the bombs stopped! At the very least we could have had another agreement like Korea.

        • JeffH

          Joe H., you know I respect your thoughts on this, but the middle east is a differant game altogether. Yeh, I want to kick their butts all to hell, but they fight their wars based on religious their beliefs where there is a big prize awaiting their death. I think we would have to commit, excuse the term, genocide to defeat them. We have to take on the whole middle east and we, as a country, cannot financialy sustain a war like that. I’m all for killing the terrorists. They know that they are hurting America by stringing this war out forever.

          • Joe H.

            Yes jeff, they are hurting our economy by stringing it out. What do you think is going to happen to our economy if they hit us here again? Look at the days right after 9/11. do you remember how our stock markets reacted? People lost their life savings. Some weren’t as bad but all were impacted, right down to the poorest by paying higher prices. We can’t afford that again. the economy WILL collapse and may not recover this time. the great depression will be a picnic comparably speaking. The only good thing if there is any is it would guarantee O-mans defeat afterward… if he didn’t declare martial law, which wouldn’t suprise me!

        • JeffH

          …and yes, I hated the way you guys were hung out there while DC made their little “out of bounds rules” in VN.

      • CindyL

        Jeff, you are right, they keep getting invaded. Although they had peace from 1933 to 1978 when the Soviets came in. The constant wars have ruined any infrastructure they had and constant “invaders” must be hard to tolerate. We need to leave. If we stay we will be taking on building a democracy which will contribute to the bankruptcy of this country. I don’t feel as though it is our job to be responsible for building all the democracies in the world.

        • JeffH

          They will always have war, whether war against the differant tribal factions or war against their neighboring countries, there will always be war in the middle east.

        • Thurman Marcum

          cindyl

          You are right. We can’t be world policemen.

        • denniso

          CindyL..agree, but we can’t forget that we have been blowing the place to hell for 8 yrs..we should have finished it or gotten out yrs ago..we do have a major obligation to help fix the place if we can,w/ minimal bloodshed.

          • Joe H.

            denniso,
            I’ll agree with you on the fixing. Just as soon as they pay for the damage in New York!!!

          • CindyL

            JoeH. please remember that the Afghans did not start this war. Bin Laden an interloper from Saudi and his gang from everywhere but Afghan are the 9/11 perpetrators not the villians.

          • Joe H.

            Can you prove that none of the people involved were afghan?

          • CindyL

            JoeH. 15 were from Saudi Arabia, 2 from United Arab Emirates, 1 from Egypt, and 1 from Lebannon. Here is the link.

            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9/11

            None from Afghanistan. Point made?

          • CindyL

            JoeH, if you go to the section labeled: Attacker and their Motivation, it will list what I have shown.

          • Joe H.

            Cindy,
            We were attacked by the Japanese in WW2 and it was un provoked. Did they repair Pearl Harbor? No! WE rebuilt Japan after they started the fight. I’m tired of being so PC!! That’s what allowed a terrorist to gun down and kill 13 of our finest when they were unarmed!!!

          • libertytrain

            JoeH – excellent points in your comment:
            “We were attacked by the Japanese in WW2 and it was un provoked. Did they repair Pearl Harbor? No! WE rebuilt Japan after they started the fight. I’m tired of being so PC!! That’s what allowed a terrorist to gun down and kill 13 of our finest when they were unarmed!!”
            And I have had enough of the Political Correctness as well. It is “bogus.”

          • CindyL

            JoeH. I didn’t say anything about rebuilding their country. Please read my post. I stated I don’t think we should to that very thing. Merely pointing out to you that the Afghan people did not start or participate in the attacks on this country.

          • Joe H.

            Cindy,
            You are correct, I connected your post with the bleeding heart of dennisob. I’ll bet he thinks the evidence on the fort hood shooter was planted!!!!!
            the guy khalid sheik mohammed and his cohorts should never be tried in a civilian court. They are terrorist combatants and as such should be tried in a military type tribunal!!! It should be quick, sure and then they should be taken from the court room and summarily shot or hung!!! Give the families of the victims of 9/11 some closure! By trying them in a civilian court you are opening NYC to further attacks and the expense of a trial that could last two years is ridiculous, especially in times such as this!!

  • katiec

    The cost is immaterial in comparing to the innocent people who have been condemmed to death. With our justice system as it is, overly ambitious prosecutors, lack of reliable representation for the less fortunate there is no balance.
    In our state there was a moritoriam put on executions as it had been proven that 13 innocent people had been put to death.
    Add that to the cost and the death penalty should be abolished.

    • denniso

      Katiec,very good comment..

  • Joe H.

    katiec,
    I wonder if you would still say that if a child of yours was molested and killed, like the little 9 year old in Fla last week or two weeks ago. It’s always easy to detach yourself from something when you don’t really have a stake in it and say it isn’t right, it’s a whole other horse race when if gets personal.

  • ExtraSmooth

    It’s been pointed out that some innocent people have been executed, and that because of that, we should abolish the death penalty. I can’t dispute that some have been, but the numbers are very small. This is not a strong enough argument to abolish the death penalty.

    What’s not mentioned is that there are also a number of convicted persons who have actually asked for the death penalty. If I had the choice of death by lethal injection or life imprisonment without the possibility of parole, I would opt for the death penalty. I would hope that that option would be available for me.

    • Lynn

      ESmooth… let’s use JoeH’s logic from the post above yours. What if YOU or someone YOU loved were wrongly committed and put to death for a crime you didn’t commit. ONE innocent person put to death is too many. Your statement “…but the numbers are very small. This is not a strong enough argument to abolish the death penalty.” seems to accept killing the wrongly accused as “collateral damage”. Someone gets murdered… in some cases an innocent person is put to death for a crime he or she didn’t commit… two deaths still no justice. Too many posts here seem to casually brush off the occasional wrongful death.
      You know what… maybe all I want is the bar to be set a little higher before the death sentence is used. And if the death sentence can’t be handed out, I still think prison should be hard labour. If there is a debt to society then society should benefit from the incarceration of prisoners. I think prison should be a ten hour workday. It should be hard, honest work. I think prison should NOT be about lifting weights, hanging with your gang and committing sexual assault.

  • Thurman Marcum

    Joeh,

    I never did say you were Morman.You better read my posts a little closer.I think your silly name calling and false accusations are making you look like a jackass.Heehaw,heehaw and heehaw.

  • Palin12

    The DC Sniper gets the needle next week. Hooray! Any liberal lunatics feel sorry for him? Snap, crackle, pop baby!!

    • Palin12

      See, I didn’t think so! Where’s all the liberals crying about his poor childhood, blah blah blah? This ain’t no party, this ain’t no disco…

  • Robert

    The death penalty is not a deterent to criminal activity. Excruiating Torture is. How about this as an alternative for the DC Sniper. Place him in a sealed room and drop a few thousand leaches in there. After 2-3 hours remove the creep and clean him up. Wait a few days and put him in the room again. Spread penut butter on his toes and drop about 20 rats in the room. Again, take him out after a few hours. If anyone runs out of torture ideas, contact all the victims families and ask for suggestions. I bet they’ll come up with a few more. Once the word gets out that we’ve adopted torture as the penalty for violent crimes, watch the numbers drop rapidly.

    • Bernie

      If only. Damn you 8th amendment!!!!

  • Joe H.

    Thurman,
    you said above that we could release them into general population to correct the problem. I take it then you don’t support the death penalty but you DO support murder? That’s what happened to the cannibal a few years ago and it was termed murder. You are indeed real complex!!!!

    • Thurman Marcum

      Joe,

      I didn’t say general population,I said prison population.I said these perverts that rape and murder children.I am not in sympathy with these maggots.A child has sperm in her body,there would be no way he could lie his way out of it.We wouldn’t have to waste our money on apeals.

  • Joe H.

    Thurman,
    Yes but by your and denniso’s thinking maybe that sperm was planted. He could be innocent…by you guys thinking!

  • s c

    The DC sniper is history. WHY is it so ‘easy’ to kill an unborn child, but it’s so tough to ‘eliminate’ an adult?
    I suspect the answer has something to do with a baby not being able to VOTE for a scumbag politician or hire a scumbag LAWYER. ANY adult can for vote for a scumbag – or let him get rich in a court of ‘law.’
    This web site will always be at odds with ultraliberals. I wonder if the DC sniper was an ultralib. If he had any political proclivities, I’ll bet he was a hardcore ultralib. Ultralibs are all about POWER and CONTROL.
    What the DC sniper did was no accident. That slime did what he did by CHOICE.
    Ergo, the DC sniper is where he belongs. He earned what he got. Once in a great while, there is true SOCIAL JUSTICE in America.
    If he got ‘social justice’ the way ultralibs define it, he’d still be alive. Tough.

    On the whole, I’d say the punishment did fit the crime.
    Did ANY baby EVER commit a crime?

    • CindyL

      s c, some Christians don’t approve of any killing. They don’t even agree to killing during war time. Maybe that’s why some don’t believe in adult exceutions.

  • Claire

    An eye for an eye. If a person kills someone and is proven guilty, they should be executed. Immediately. Save the taxpayers money. It would certainly cut down the prison population. If a person steals and/or commits robbery whack off a finger or two. But no, we have to be “civilized.” It was their “rotten” childhood that made these creeps commit murder. I have a big problem with this so-called theory. A person has choices–you can make a better life for yourself. If you want to be a murderer, then you pay the ultimate price by being executed. I probably sound hard-nosed but we need to get tough with these creeps.

  • Jay

    Joe H. – what is this about the Eastern Star Villa?

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