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Religious Leaders Oppose Bill They Said Would Violate First Amendment Rights

September 24, 2010 by  

Religious leaders oppose bill they said would violate First Amendment rightsSignificant public attention has been focused on the proposed Islamic Center in New York and its implications for the freedom of religion. However, another First Amendment conflict has been brewing all this time which may also shape the role of government in regulating religious organizations.

The issue has centered around pending legislation that would prohibit religious groups that receive Federal funding from religion-based discrimination in their hiring decisions. The bill in question is HR 5466, introduced by Representative Patrick Kennedy (D-R.I.), which would reauthorize Federal substance abuse treatment funding administered by the Substance Abuse and Mental Health Services Administration.

Recently, leaders of more than 100 organizations — including the Union of Orthodox Jewish Congregations of America and the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops — sent a letter to all members of Congress to protest the language in the bill that would ban them from preferring staff who share their religious faith. Among other laws, the signatories invoked the Civil Rights Act of 1964 as the grounds for their complaint.

"Stripping away the religious hiring rights of religious service providers violates the principle of religious freedom, and represents bad practice in the delivery of social services," said Anthony R. Picarello Jr., General Counsel of the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops. 

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  • s c

    Caesar [aka Uncle Scam] is trying to flex his muscle again. As long as he’s allowed to get away with religious discrimination via pc tactics, First Amendment religious rights are moot and will be enforced or ignored at Caesar’s discretion.
    Hail Caesar. Et tu, Caesar.

  • Vic

    No religious organization should be receiving tax dollars. They are already tax exempt. If they want to minister and administer to people, do on tithes and other donations. No church should EVER take money from the govnerment.

    • TIME

      Vic, I agree with you 100%.

    • Norm

      Vic

      100% correct. I also believe that in some cases so called churches should be taxed. Many churches are in fact profitable businesses.

      • THIRD PARTY

        ALL THESE RELIGIONS SHOULD BE PAYING PROPERTY TAX,INCOME TAX,CAPITAL GAINS TAX,SALES TAX,INHERITANCE TAX,JUST AS THE CITIZENS HAVE TO PAY.THE GOVERNMENT HAS BEEN A SHILL TO ALL RELIGIOUS GROUPS,THERE IS THE PROBLEM WITH AMERICA,ALL RELIGIONS ARE CROOKED,RAPIST,PEDOPHILES,SELL HUMAN REMAINS,TERRORIST,TAX EVADERS,BELIEVE IN ALIEN GODS FROM A TRILLION YEARS AGO,MULTI MARRIAGES,I THINK I LISTED MOST OF THE RELIGIOUS GROUPS.

        • http://naver samurai

          I think you really need to get off of what you have been smoking. Not all religions are like that. Christianity doesn’t believe in rape, murder, lying, etc., so what’s your point? Such an immuture and childish rant on this site. If you want to know what religion has all of the things you have mentioned, go no farther than your copy of the koran. It’s all in there. I suggest that you post some facts and sources to back them up, not leftward leaning videos from youtube. Why do you call yourself third party? Are you a member of a third party or do you believe there should be one? I don’t know what party you belong to, but if it believes the same way you just said, I wouldn’t want any part of it. FOR GOD AND COUNTRY!

          • coal miner

            Samurai,

            Wrong,

            http://www.evilbible.com/

          • third party

            I’M NOT A SHILL,LIKE MOST RELIGIOUS PEOPLE ARE,LOOK AT THE VATICAN FOR COVERING UP RAPE,STEALING LAND,ECT.. JEWISH MEN CAUGHT STEALING HUMAN ORGANS IN NJ,SELLING THEM ON THE BLACK MARKET,RELIGION AS OF FACT CREATE ANIMOSITY OF A PRETEND FRIEND IN THE SKY,GET REAL,AS THE CONSTITUTION SITES ” FREEDOM FROM RELIGION.

          • Lewis Munn

            Coalminer is right and you are wrong.

            You will never be right until you read the parts of the Bible that deals with Christianity, and compare to the Qur’an. I have. I think you have not, and are making wild statements made up in your own mind.

            At least have the conscience to read carefully the book on Christianity (New Testament) and its philosophy, and read the Qur’an and compare its philosophy and how people under it are to behave!

            Then come back and tell the truth.

          • http://naver samurai

            Cite your sources, not youtube videos morons!

          • Dan Burke

            Samurai,

            You are just going to have to accept that these people who choose to see religion as evil will never accept any argument to the contrary. They usually have invested interest in their viewpoint. Normally they’ll claim they are just being wise, or logical, or whatever…. Sort of like how we claim that progressives don’t listen to history that shows that any country that practices progressive economics are poor, poor, poor. Or that these countries don’t have freedom. Or that these countries execute their own people. None of this matters to those who refuse to see. So it is with religion too. And don’t get carried away either. Many religious people are no better. I am no exception. Perhaps I am even more stubborn than most. Maybe that is why I read their words and anticipate that they will never accept any argument have to offer.

            As for the article, personally, I have two concerns.

            1. Separation of church and state. I know this is a false claim about the founding of America. I think the real nature and argument for separation of church and state isn’t to say that no religious viewpoint should be taken in your life and politics. What I think is the real danger is when church and state collude. How often in the Dark Ages were churches used to justify conquest? Just make it “holy war,” and with some persuasion you get thousands of religious nuts convinced that they have to destroy the infidels (Christian, Muslim, Jew, pagans, etc.). What scares me here is that the government is setting themselves up to dictate to churches what to say and do. They are using money and influence to get churches to comply with the government approved message. Just this past week I read that President Obama called a bunch of churches and asked those church leaders to preach “Obamacare.” This just screamed of returning to the Dark Ages little by little. Will the message from the pulpits eventually be government propaganda? Could this give the federal government the power to move the people any direction they want? As much as I want freedom of religion, I do NOT want government dictating the religious message. Imagine if in ten years that politicians figure out that they ONLY way for them to pay off the United States federal debt is to conquer the countries we owe money. With control of the pulpits, they could slowly have us given a message that those countries are full of sinners and evil, unrepentant and militantly dangerous. Then all they would need to do is have our ministers teach us that killing the infidels would save the world from some great sin…. Sound like something from the Dark Ages??? It does to me. Progress sure sounds like heading a few centuries back in time to me. As Glenn Beck pointed out not long ago, when religion and government are opposed there is balance. When they collude, you get stuff like slavery and apartheid.

            2. Why are these religions taking federal funds? It is one thing for them to get tax breaks as non-profit organizations. And for those of you who think religions should be taxed as businesses, religions also do a lot of charitable work. They are rewarded with a non-profit status. If you take away their non-profit status, you may find that you lose a lot of non-profit protections across the whole spectrum. Of course, there are a few non-religious non-profits I think should lose their non-profit status. For example, one I read about recently was proven to only give about one percent of the donations they received to the actual cause. Everything else was gobbled up in operating costs and administrative fees, etc…. There is so much that I would love to say here but I think there is one thing in this whole scenario that really bothers me. Just like Congress is becoming irrelevant because they accept the ability of the EPA to write laws (as well as everything else that is being done to bypass them), so too are the churches setting themselves up to be controlled by the federal government. I have no idea how my church stands in this argument, but I think of all those States who on one hand argue about the federal government taking away their independence and then in nearly the next breath talk about the federal assistance they want to receive. And so when I read this bit about the churches and federal funds, I suddenly see a federal government that is grossly out of control. Stepping into everywhere and everything that the federal government should have nothing to do with. On the other hand, I see churches making the same argument as the States have. Saying the federal government has no business meddling in their affairs while on the other hand looking for federal funds to do what they believe is their job.

            Here’s my final thought and word of caution. It doesn’t matter who you are, or what you do. If the federal government gives out money and then dictates how the banks behave to receive continued money…. And they give money to the States and gain power to dictate to the States…. And the federal government gives to churches and dictates what they do…. Under what delusion do you live in that you believe that when the federal government bails out your home mortgage, your credit cards, and gives you “benefits” that the federal government isn’t going to do the same to you? Perhaps the federal government will dictate your diet, your medical care, your insurance coverage, where you live, what job you have, the wages you earn, and the list goes on. In fact, this is slowly happening piece by piece. And we are all told that this is because they know what is best for us. Sadly, a lot of us believe them. And I think several politicians believe this spin as well. But the reality is no matter how good the rhetoric that in the end, no one will have freedom and everyone will have government control their lives, their religion, and their “free” speech.

          • http://naver samurai

            OK Dan, I know what you are saying. Good post and keep up the good fight, fellow patriot. FOR GOD AND COUNTRY!

          • J. Murphy

            Third Party & any others making comments concerning American Religions are speaking with Satans tongue. American religions don’t teach their congregations to lie, steal, murder, have multiple wives, rape 9 yr. old females, beat their wives whenever they want. They may have people in a certain religion that have committed such crimes, but not because their religion has taught them to do so. American religions don’t teach people to murder anyone that won’t convert to their religion. However, the koran, Islam, & sharia laws DO for Allah. You are taught all this hate & deceit by Allah, for Allah. I guess we all know what religion NOT to join. Unless you want to serve Satan & not God.

            I could quote your koran to make my point, but anyone reading the 9 suras knows exactly what I mean.
            Your allah is not God. Our God, the one & only God, teaches us to love, honor, respect others & so much more. Never has our God told us to murder for him, except maybe way back in Biblical times. We don’t live in 610 AD. You do. Muhammad was a false prophet, murderer, assassin, liar, deceitful power hungry mongrel doing the bidding of satan. He has taught nothing good since his time in Medina.

            The problem with Islam is that not one in that faith ever uses his brain for thinking & clarity of purpose. You all follow a maniac like sick little pigs.

        • coal miner

          Third I agree,

          Religion is a sham,it is on myths and ignorance.Here is what Jesse Ventura said about religion.

          Organized religion is a sham and a crutch for weak-minded people who need strength in numbers. It tells people to go out and stick their noses in other people’s business. I live by the golden rule: Treat others as you’d want them to treat you. The religious right wants to tell people how to live. Jesse Ventura(playboy interview:1999)

          • TIME

            Coal,

            No all religions are not a sham, to believe in God or Jesus is a good thing, to help others in a charitable way is a good thing, to give of ones self to help others is Good, Cristians and Jews do follow GODS laws of helping others.

            But Preversions of Religions is not the same thing, thus one can’t lump everyone in the same boat.

            “God is PURE LOVE,” He has no Envy nor Greed, never feel that your better than anyone else, as we are all created in “God’s Image.”

            Thus if your black – white – brown – green – or even orange, you are all God’s children.

            To All of you I beg that you all; “Repent now for your sins,”
            Ask that God forgive you for being worthless, as well wasting your life on Greed and Envy, and bowing to false Idols politicians, actors, etc.. get right with GOD now, before its too late.
            I beg you all Please ask God and his Son to Forgive you.

          • Norm

            coal miner
            Jesse is smarter than I gave him credit for!

          • Norm

            time
            Just a technicality: God, Jesus, and the “holy spirit” are all the same entity. Aquinas couldn’t explain it and no one else to my knowledge, ever has.
            If you can, let me know, and then we’ll move to the virgin birth.

          • third party

            JESSE is the best,HE HAD BROUGHT UP THE DOGMA OF RELIGION,ALSO he is the only Governor to have a surplus in Minn history.

          • Robin from Arcadia, IN

            coal miner… If Jesse Ventura is the best you can do to ‘prove’ your point, then you need to be told that you ain’t proved nothing. I am a Christian. Do you think we walk around with a special glow and never have issues to deal with? We are just like you! The only difference is Christians who are true saved Christians know where they are going when they die. I drink wine in the evenings and occasionally let a cuss word fly. I can’t stand the administration in power, but pray for them and hope God will change their hearts. I struggle with my finances and have had children not walk the path I had hoped they would. If you think Christians are supposed to be different from the world, we are. We know the Lord and have a personal relationship with Jesus.

          • Lewis Munn

            Coalminer,

            Taking the word of a profession wrestler in a magazine that is very biased against Christianity is not a good way to go, now is it?

            You too need to remember that something good always has those who are hypocrites, and you WILL know them if you look because they do not adhere to the “book” as to how to behave.

            Read the Bible, not go by the word of a person who is paid to fake things!

          • http://?? Joe H.

            normie and coaldminor,
            The reason you can’t comprehend the concept of the trinity and the emaculate conception is that YOU put human limits on God!!! He is very much not HUMAN!!! I pray that you come to your senses before it is too late!!! Especially you coal miner!! You are old enough that it is very close to time!!!

          • Granny Mae

            coal miner,

            LOL ! So this is where you get your perverted thoughts. Jesse Ventura LOL LOL ! It says it all ! It is when people like you and third party infiltrate religions that we get the perversions that go on ! LOL you guys are a laugh !

          • Granny Mae

            Norm,

            The trinity has been discribed like this. You have a lighted candle !
            The candle consists of three distinct things. The heat from the flame ( GOD) The light from the flame ( THE HOLY SPIRIT ) and the body fo the candle. This is Jesus in the human for. Each is distinct and yet together it makes the candle !

            Now if you think you are ready for the Virgin birth I can tell you about that too !

          • Kate8

            GrannyMae – Love your candle metaphor. I haven’t met anyone else who understands this!

            I’d love to hear your interpretation of the Virgin birth. I have one, too. I think we may be on a similar track.

          • Granny Mae

            kate 8

            I really don’t have a problem with the idea of a virgin birth especially with todays science ! There have been many female proceedures done with a scope through the navel so I see no reason why the Good Lord couldn’t do exactly as the bible says to perform the conception of Jesus and then the birth would simply break the Hymen as the child was born. Many people get the pregnancy of Mary confused with the imaculate conception. The imaculate conception was Anne’s conception of Mary ! Anne was an old woman when she concieved Mary and her conception was not through intercourse but I believe a form of artificial insemination ! The same as Elizabeth ! This happened to several women in the bible ! I don’t look at God as some mystical figment of imagination, but he is a very real being with some very amazing abilities and there is nothing that he can’t do if he so desires ! I believe he created man and if that is true why would a virgin birth be so unbelievable ? I believe that God exists in a different dimention than we do and that is why he is omni present. I believe that the bible tells us everything but it was written by people living in a time that they had no words for the things we know today so they did the best they could with what they had. I am very interrested in archeology and especially biblical archeology. There have been some amazing discoveries in recent years, and they all give creadence to the stories in the bible ! The destruction of Sodom and Gomorra is facinating, because they have discovered where those cities were and found that they were destroyed by fire and brimstone. Volcanic action ! As for Lot being warned ahead of time by the Angels it is not so difficult to understand when you concider that today we can tell pretty good about when we will get an erruption by sizmic graphs and earth quakes etc. so why would it be so difficult to think that God could use such a thing to destroy a couple of cities? And as for Lot , well the Angels visited Abraham first on their way to Sodom and Gomorra and Abraham begged for the lives of Lot and his family so they agreed to spare them which they did.
            Here I go again getting long winded. Sorry. God Bless

          • Granny Mae

            Kate 8

            I hope you get to read this but maybe not as it has been here for so long we will all probably go on to the next thing tomorrow ! LOL !
            I tried !

          • john

            There is a saying..for those who believe no explanation is nescessary,for those who don’t believe no explanation is possible.Organized religion may tell you what is right and wrong according to their faith..but none (with the exception of Islam)forces you to live according to their beliefs.It is the duty of Christians as commanded by Christ to admonish the sinner and to educate them but not to force one ot change.That is left to the individual.If the person will not listen..they’ll be judged by God who solely knows that persons heart.People who don’t believe love to point fingers of blame and guilt upon religions when one or more of it’s members commits some grave immoral or criminal act..but they seem to forget that these people are human and prone to sin like everybody else..they are not exempt from falling into sin..if anything they are more prone to be attacked.If you don’t believe in God thats truly sad..I hope for these people that God will show Himself to them in some way or another.But I would never force or try to convince you of His existence..only God can do that.

          • James

            Norm, When a voice from heaven was heard or a miracle occurred, but nothing was seen, He is referred to as the ‘Spirit of the Lord’. When He showed Himself, from behind a rock, to Moses, He is referred to as the ‘Lord.’ And when He is both heard and seen, He is referred to as ‘Jesus Christ.’ “Jesus” came from the Hebrew ‘Yah-shua’ (God-Saviour), and “Christ” from the Greek ‘christos’ (flesh-man). Thus Jesus Christ means, literally, God the Saviour in man’s flesh. Jesus said Moses rejoiced to see His day. He said it was He who was on the mount with Moses. When a voice from heaven spoke of Jesus “This is my son…”, that doesn’t mean they are separate entities, Jesus was playing the role of a man, setting an example for man to follow. Revelation 22:13 reads: I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last…I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these thing in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.” Jesus said He IS God.

          • Granny Mae

            John and James,

            You are both so very right on ! It is a pleasure to see and read from others that realy get the picture. Maybe one day we will all meet on the other side. That would be great !

          • Kate8

            GrannyMae, Interesting concept about artificial insemination, but the problem with that is that, WHO WOULD BE THE DONOR?

            That idea once crossed my mind, but I’ve come to realize that things of the spirit are incomprehesible to the flesh. The ‘virgin birth’ is not a carnal issue. It is a spiritual one.

            One must first understand just who is the Virgin/Holy Mother, and what is her relationship to the Holy Spirit.

            Something to contemplate.

          • http://personalliberty.com Randy

            Jesse is like most seudo famous people,(or all non-believers for that matter) it’s all about them until tragedy hits, then they will either blame God or run to Him. Funny, but sad. Trying to say ALL religions are a scam is like saying ALL mudslims are terrorists and you wouldn’t want to do that now would you? The only religion I know is believing that Jesus Christ, the Son God, died for my sins and if you want to get to Heaven you have to accept him as your personal savior. If you do that, you will have a desire to try to live a righteous life and be a good example to others. There, I just carried out the main marching order christians have been given. If you believe it great, if you don’t, it’s on you. Tell me how that is a threat to anyone, or an attempt to control someone’s mind. And, speakin’ of politics from the pulpit..it worked great for Martin Luther King, so reckon what preachers Obammi called to help him out? He’s crooked as a dog’s hind leg, but he ain’t stupid.

        • Granny Mae

          Third Party,

          You are a prime example of your brain on drugs !
          You are sick !

          • http://naver samurai

            It’s either liberal crack or kool aid.

        • http://CLAGGETTS4HIM@HOTMAIL.COM MIKE

          DEAR 3RD PARTY,
          I RESPECTFULLY SUBMIT THAT ALL “RELIGIOUS PEOPLE” ARE NOT AS YOU PORTRAY. PLEASE DON’T PAINT ME WITH THE SAME BRUSH, ON THE SAME CANVAS. PERHAPS SOMEONE COULD PAINT YOU WITH THOSE OF HATE SPEECH, RATHER THAN DEFINITE IN YOUR OPINIONS.

      • http://yahoo richard

        so you think the salvation army should be taxed and not be allowed to get money from the govt.? it’s a religon based org.

        • s c

          Richard, please understand what is so wrong with any ‘religious’ group taking Uncle Scam’s money. Uncle has has ONE rule in dealing with any and all ‘religious’ group(s). That is, when a group takes Uncle Scam’s money, Uncle Scam OWNS that group.
          He has waited for people to get comfy with the practice, and when he puts on his Emperor’s crown, he won’t hesitate to let us know who the REAL boss is. If you haven’t yet seen that one coming, you need to re-think your view.

          • independant thinker

            s.c………..I have read all 41 (at I write this) posts and yours is at the top of the two or three that actualy say something useful.

          • Betty

            The government always exempts muslims when they make these laws…are you all aware that under the infamous Health reform law..the muslims are exempt? Muslims say that insurance is a gamble and they do not believe in gambling . Therefore, guess what? When poor muslims get sick, we will be paying for their health care. Our citizens will be fined if they do not buy insurance.

        • Granny Mae

          richard,

          I know of many religious groups and they don’t take funds from the government including tax exempt status ! The reason being if they did then the government would be able to tell them what to do and the church is not going to stand for that ! There are some that may take but there are more of them that don’t.

          • Granny Mae

            Betty,

            Thanks for that info. I did not know that ! Imagine that !

          • coal miner

            Granny,

            You are right Granny Mae,they don’t take money from the government, they fleece their flock.HA ha ha ha

          • http://naver samurai

            Coal Miner knows all about flocks, since he is an Obama bin Laden sheeple!

      • coal miner

        Robin,

        Look at your latest Christian scandals.

        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Christian_evangelist_sc… – 95k – Similar pages

        • Robin, Arcadia, IN

          coal miner… We were born into sin. We live in a fallen world. I didn’t go to the website you posted. I know that there are imperfections in our world and sin continues because Satan is alive and well and doing his very best to destroy Christians. When God decides to end this world, Jesus will come back for His people. I am one of them. I will enjoy eternity living side by side with believers where they will never be sin again. You cannot base your opinions of Christians on all of Satan’s dealings. You are falling for Satan’s traps.

        • Granny Mae

          coal miner,

          The infiltration of pedofiles and homosexuals into the church,(and it was not just the Catholic church) is a attack of the enemy also known as satan, and it was a profound attack. There are sick people everywhere and to this day I know of no-one that has a workable solution as what to do with these sick people. They are everywhere. You blame the church for a cover-up but have you ever thought about the cover-up perpatrated on you and me and everyone of us by the local governments by allowing these people to live where you live ? Look up on the computer of the all the addresses around your place of residence and just see how many live where you live ! There is no help for most of these people. No matter how much counseling they get it doesn’t work. You condem the church for their problems and yet I bet you have done nothing to solve the problem right in your very own neighborhood ! Lots more going on there than in the church !
          Clean your own closet before you condem someone else about theirs ! Your condemnation stems only from your inner hatred of God faith and religion ! It starts for most from their use of Play Boy magazine ! Maybe you should get rid of your Play Boy mags. Who knows when or if you have joined those you are condeming !

          • independant thinker

            Grannie, I have a workable solution but it is not politicaly correct. Exacute them.

          • Granny Mae

            works for me !

        • Kate8

          coal miner, You are one poor soul.

          I have met many people involved in ministry with many churches, and they live most humbly. Aside from TV evangelists, and possibly those in certain obvious factions I won’t mention, these people live very simply, and are dedicated to relieving suffering wherever they find it. And those who tithe are most happy to do it, out of nothing but love of God and compassion for their fellow man.

          If you want to talk about fleecing, look no further than your own beloved anti-messiah and his comrades. And these folks take it by force, as much as they can get. And they’re busy figuring out how they can get the rest of it, too.

          Everything you accuse Christians of doing, progressive secularists do on a MUCH larger scale. And the ones at the top are livin’ large.

          • http://naver samurai

            I agree with you 100% Kate8! Keep up the good fight, fellow patriot! November isn’t too much farther off. In November there will be some real change made in America. I’ll keep my God, Bible, gun, money, family, job, and medals and you can keep the “change” of Obama bin Laden. FOR GOD AND COUNTRY!

        • http://naver samurai

          How about the latest scandals of the cowards, traitors, and Obama bin Laden? Shouldn’t we be looking closer at them? FOR GOD AND COUNTRY!

      • Rich W

        They also should make no endorsment of ANY political candidate (remember Kennedy?)

    • ValDM

      Vic,
      Apparently, you missed the point of the article. This targets those religious entities that deliver substance abuse and mental health services. I can tell you from experience, that substance abuse and mental health services delivered by secular agencies 9 times out of 10 fail, while the ones delivered by religious entities have a better level of success. So should we defund them if thery don’t behave?

      • Granny Mae

        ValDM,

        You are right about the church have a better success rate than the secular groups, that is why they want to be able to employ workers based on their faith. It is this background of faith that makes the difference ! In this case the church is doing the public an enormace service and it would be to all our benefits to help support their work.

        • Kate8

          Of course, Granny Mae. They need to employ people who share their faith because that is the whole point of their outreach. Caring for physical needs is only an entry point to the soul.

    • Carole Howell

      I agree Vic, why should they?

    • Viktor Leben

      Vic,

      The members of these “religious groups” pay taxes. Why then should they be discriminated against ? I respectfully disagree. They should receive money from the government, while at the same time maintaining autonomy on who they hire ….

    • DaveH

      That’s right, Vic. Nobody should take money from the Government. It is not the Government’s money to give.

      • Kate8

        DaveH – You hit the nail right on the head! And it’s such an obvious argument that everyone else missed it, including me!

        IT’S NOT THEIR MONEY TO GIVE!

        What else is there to say?

    • http://yahoo Jon

      It’s not the governments money, it’s our money. When the greedy crooks in DC, and their banker friends, etc. get their hands out of our pockets, the private sector and faith based organizations will have the dollars to operate.
      The whole system is rotten to the core.

  • Robin from Arcadia, IN

    Religious groups receive federal funding? What religious groups? Are they referring to the Islam leader who used tax dollars to go on tour to promote funding for the mosque? How does that even happen?

    • TIME

      Robin,
      I think thats whats going on, strange how a Cult gets money from #44 who claims he is not one of them, just more of the never ending cycle of rhetoric from Barry Soetoro of what gets really old after a while.

    • third party

      ALL RELIGIOUS GROUPS GET FUNDING TO SPEW THEIR DECEIT IN FOREIGN LANDS.

      • Robin from Arcadia, IN

        third party… do you even have a clue what you are talking about? If so, you really need proof of that off the cuff statement you made.

        • http://naver samurai

          He says third party, but he’s actually a lib. He doesn’t know the truth and can’t handle it. FOR GOD AND COUNTRY!

      • Granny Mae

        third party,

        Get a real life or get a brain ! You have got to be one sick SOB !

      • http://naver samurai

        You must be talking about your bretheren the muslims!

  • John

    If Patrick Kennedy is involved, you got to assume its bad legislation

    • TIME

      John,
      Dude you just said a large mouth full on that. I agree with you 100%.

  • Charles King

    It is not that Americans are not a generous people, but Tax Exempt Status and any other tax payer money should not be granted to any church or group. That is what charities are for. Not to mention how easy to abuse this system. The federal government cna easily control the groups message by threatening to withhold funds or grant additional ecconomic favors to those that agree to support and push the agenda. Let’s face it, there is no true non-profit rganization. Greed drives everything. If I choose to support a church sponsored activity or choose to support a group such as ACORN (over my dead body), I can write a check. It would be my right and my choice. I also feel that I should not be given a tax break for choosing to give my money away.

    • Carole Howell

      Charles is right.

    • DaveH

      Only people should pay taxes. Since Liberals don’t recognize organizations as people, no organization should be subject to taxation. And since we all get equal protection under the law, each of us should pay the same taxes. You can bet that the Government would get a lot smaller if everybody had the same skin in the game.

  • Elissa

    John, if ANY Kennedy is involved, you’ve got to assume it’s bad legislation!!!

  • http://none Donald Long

    Can someone please define “religion” for me.
    I see only one difference between Islam and the Klu Klux Klan and that is that the KKK wears white masks and Islam wears black masks.
    If Islam can be called a religion then the KKK should also be called a religion.
    I think we need an official definition of religion.

    • Norm

      Donald Long
      Read some of Pat Robertson’s and the late Jerry Fallwell’s crap. That’s not Christianity, that’s insanity.

      • DaveH

        Using your kind of logic, Norm, one might assume that you aren’t human.

      • Kate8

        Norm, both of these fine men were derided for violating PC and calling it the way they saw it. No one had to agree with them.

        I am outraged by many things said by those on the left, including your own messiah. So what. I don’t see them lambasted by the press.

        Grow up and realize that in America people have the right to believe in God, however they choose, or not. They also have the right to speak according to their beliefs, even if people like you don’t like it. (I haven’t seen you complain about the vile things said by Muslim clerics.)

        Unfortunately, we now have some folks who are more equal than others. That means that you lefties can get by with anything.

      • coal miner

        Norm,

        The Rev. Jerry Falwell became the public “face” of evangelical Christianity in the 1980s. … a former ghost writer for Falwell who is now openly gay and who heads …
        http://www.dallasvoice.com

        Pray for JoeH,Granny Mae,Betty and some other weak minds.Poor little JoeH.HA ha ha

        • http://?? Joe H.

          coal dung,
          If I thought you meant your instruction to pray for me I would thank you, but comming from a hollow man/soul like you, I don’t hold much value in it!

        • http://naver samurai

          You’re no ivory tower of wisdom there coal digger!

      • http://yahoo Jon

        Here’s the big problem. Government programs and organizations can’t provide some of the services that faith based organizations provide. To do that, they would have to create a government religion. If you haven’t figured this out yet you aren’t thinking carefully. Individuals who need spiritual help aren’t getting it from the government. Check out the public school system and our welfare programs. You can easily chose your own selfish values and con the system any way you can. Secularized values are second hand religious principles and values without their original foundation. Our Founders knew that and judged Religion to be vital and worthy of their support while limiting government interference. Forget that lesson and you get the kind of crisis our country is in today. If we go bankrupt morally and financially both church and State will suffer.

    • coal miner

      Donald Long,

      Religion is the definition for ignorance.

      Website:www.answering-christianity.com/sami_zaatri/book_wi…

      • coal miner

        Donald,

        Read my website below,this one didn’t take.

        • coal miner

          Read this one!

          englishatheist.org/evil/slavery.shtml

          • http://naver samurai

            You really need to go back to church! If not, you’ll be feeling the heat very soon. FOR GOD AND COUNTRY!

      • Betty

        coal miner….if you are indeed a coal miner, then I almost guarantee that at some time in your coal mining life, you have had occasion to call on God….I am from Kentucky…my father and also my sister were coal miners. Many of my relatives were coal miners. I have been told by all of them that there are times of danger back in the mines when all involved prayed…and asked God to save them. Think twice before going back into a coal mine with your bad attitude…God Bless all of you here…

    • third party

      RELIGION DEFINED: IGNORANCE TO FACTS.A GROUP OF DISILLUSIONED FANATICS,STRIVING TO BRAINWASH THE WEAK MINDED.

      • http://naver samurai

        I see Obama bin Laden and his muslim friends have done a good job with you. FOR GOD AND COUNTRY!

        • http://?? Joe H.

          samurai,
          Have you heard the one minute sermon??? Look it up!! It’s GREAT and normie, coal miner, and third party should hear it !!

          • http://?? Joe H.

            forgot to leave the site.
            womenbygrace.com/one-minute-sermon

          • http://naver samurai

            Thanks fellow patriot! Very interesting as it does describe them to a “T”! FOR GOD AND COUNTRY!

  • eddie47d

    This actually could be a blessing for the religious institutions. More new recruits. Seriously though many churches help with community service projects and accept troubled youth (diversion programs).There is no pay and for those who are payed it’s usually too low to stick around. Our church secretary gets $1000 a month for 40 hrs. so that’s not very enticing. Some of you have said charity should come from religious or private donations and not government. There are few mega churches and few churches have the money or resources to help people anymore. I assume that is why the government is more involved.

    • DaveH

      They don’t have the resources, Eddie, because Government is draining us all dry.

    • Granny Mae

      eddie47d

      Very good post ! A-MEN !

  • OneDamnAngryAmerican

    Well, thank God! At least now the NAACP cannot be forced into hiring or accepting memberships from White People!

  • OneDamnAngryAmerican

    Oh, and don’t forget the United Negroe College fund. They’ll be exempt, too, as will the New Black Panther Party. None of these folks will ever have to deal with White people!

    How about the NewNAACP? The New National Association for the Advancement of Caucasian People?

    • Viktor Leben

      If you start it, the caucasians will come …..

  • Carrie TPT

    I can see how you think Taxpayer money shouldn’t go to religeous organizations, but take a minute… If Tax dollars are going to Clinics like planned parenthood and other Abortion proponents, and Aids clinics, isn’t it fair that a similar number of Tax $$ support Women’s & Children’s shelters and abuse assistance centers? Often church based food and aid distribution is more efficient and serves the whole community, even though it is funded by govt grants and church donations and mostly operated by church volunteers. How many Govert. Union Employees with big benefit packages & salaries would it take to replace a Church youth group delivering dinners to seniors and shut-ins on Thanksgiving?

    • Kate8

      Carrie, You’ve got a good point there. Planned Parenthood, Acorn and such are every bit ideological as any church. Just because they don’t use the word ‘church’ is a matter of semantics. They promote a secular, ‘non-God’ religion, and worship at the altar of self-indulgence, entitlement and depravity. Wait, that’s liberalism/progressivism!

      Whay should tax dollars go to left-wing ideological groups, yet be withheld from Christian groups? I don’t want to fund Planned Parenthood or Acorn, as I disagree with everything they stand for.

      Perhaps they should all be un-funded. Once a group receives money from the government, the government owns them. Wouldn’t it be better to allow people to decide which charities they want to support? The government should get completely out of the ‘charity’ business, anyway.

      The Constitution does not allow Congress to make ANY laws regarding the practice of religion. They need to keep their hands off. No monies, no regulations and no taxes. And this means ALL forms of religion, including progressive secularism.

      I wonder how long progressive secularist groups would be around if they weren’t taxpayer funded. We’d at least be able to see to which way went the support of the populace.

      • s c

        Kate8, thanks for mentioning Planned Parenthood. Think of that group as the American branch of Hitler’s eugenics via Margart Sanger. If you haven’t done it yet, research Sanger.
        On its best day, P P is on a par with the ACLU (fit only for deportation). To make the matter even worse, Sanger is probably revered in public school
        by now (just another government ‘saint’).
        It’s hard to fathom how views that come straight from hell can be seen as saintly, but that’s not for me to explain. That explanation must come from Uncle Scam himself. Don’t hold your breath waiting for any explanation from the old fart.

        • Kate8

          sc, Yes, I’m well aware of Margaret Sanger and her eugenics movement. Isn’t it interesting that she is so revered by the left, along with Mao, Castro, Chavez…

          Her ideas are more or less mainstream today, at least among our government officials. Isn’t it ironic that so many people support those who are working toward their demise.

          Colossal ignorance. It’s the only explanation.

      • third party

        OUR government is already in the charitable business they steal our money through taxes.

    • Carole Howell

      If these churches want to discriminate in who the hire, do they also discriminate against certain people who may need their help. Since we have more churches per capita than any other nation on earth, why is it we have so many homeless and destitute people in this country? Especially if they are doing such a bang up good job in this department?

      I know for a fact that some churches do good work, and I know for a fact that many do very little.

      • Kate8

        Carole, think about it. Does it make sense to force churches to hire people who are contrary to their beliefs? Their purpose is to exemplify the Love of God. No non-believer would do this.

        Would Planned Parenthood, Acorn, etc. hire a Christian and allow them to speak freely? NO!!! They wouldn’t be hired at all.

        And no, churches to not discriminate against those who don’t believe as they do. They believe Christ came for those who do not know the Father. You don’t minister to the healthy, you minister to the sick.

        • Betty

          We should not forget that this same government has paid the Imam Rauf 4 tours overseas to spread the myth of peaceful Islam…this same government is paying for rebuilding and maintenance of Mosques worldwide. The would be mosque 2 blocks from Ground Zero that this same government is defending have all their permits , yet an existing church at Ground Zero still has not been allowed to rebuild. The government seems to be supporting Islams but not it’s own citizens. I found a great paper I would like to share with you about our elected officials.

          THE TEN COMMANDMENTS OF “WE THE PEOPLE”

          1. Thou shall allow NO politician in America to have an agenda contrary to the wishes of its majority constituents.

          2. Thou shall allow NO politician to remain in office who violates our constitution or our rights.

          3. Thou shall impeach and immediately remove from office ANY politician who seeks to abrogate our right to prayer in any venue or who objects to the word GOD in our society.

          4. Thou shall elect NO individual to ANY office in the United States of America who cannot or will not show any and all documents proving his eligibility to hold office in America.

          5. Thou shall allow No elected official to make derogatory remarks to foreign countries about America or its policies.

          6. Thou shall immediately impeach and remove ANY politician who is in favor of Shariah law or ANY other law than American jurisprudence to be practiced in America.

          7. Thou shall allow NO body of government to give American taxpayer’s money to any foreign country without the direct consent of the American voters and NONE whatsoever until America’s deficit is absolved and the American citizen’s needs are addressed first.

          8. Thou shall absolutely impeach and immediately remove from office any elected official who would pass laws allowing persons entering America illegally to become citizens for any reason…EVER!

          9. Thou shall allow no representative body to pass legislation or consider legislation contrary to the interests of the citizens of America.

          10. Thou shall NO ONE in any position, to remove benefits of our senior citizens who spent their lives working and building this country. These are our parents, Aunts, Uncles and Grandparents. If we do not support other countries we can well afford to support our own seniors!

          American Citizen

          Terry Herbert

          • Kate8

            Betty, Amen to that.

          • http://?? Joe H.

            Betty,
            I think we ALL ought to send a copy of this to Nobama and all of our reps!!

          • http://naver samurai

            Good job, fellow patriot!

          • Granny Mae

            Betty,

            I’m all for this one ! Thanks for the post !

        • Kate8

          BTW, This administration is directly violating the First Amendment by effectively endorsing Islam all over the nation, while denigrating Christianity.

          Do you think they will try to force Muslim organizations to hire non-Muslims? HA! And make no mistake, many of them receive government funding.

  • http://gmail i41

    And the National Marxist Democrat Communist Party is the party for the working man. It more like the party, for anti American thug crap party of non workers. The arxist muslim moron mule gave bikkions to drill in the gulf to Mexica after stopping our American workers from worrking, Soros getting billions to drill in 2 mile deep waters off South America’s waters. Giving the muslim pervs a pass on having to pay for mandatory healthcare requirements. Call a marxist democrat senator or representative mumble and stumble why that was allowed, or were they just lock step with what ever the pistol gripped, jug earred,fold backed tooth muslim smuck in the WH? A real fair treatment of the American citizens!

  • coal miner
  • coal miner

    Mr livinston,

    Please remove http://www.answering-christianity.com/sami_zaatri/book_wi

    They may be spyware.There is two of them.They are the same.

    Thank you

  • coal miner

    englishatheist.org/evil/slavery.shtml

  • JoeH

    Hey to all. Some of you just want to live your life the way you want to, well that is good if you choose a good worthwhile life, but I’m afraid that the Natural man has desires to do just what feels good. Religion helps to steer those of us humble enough to know we need guidance to better choices. I know, tax exempt, is what most churches
    have in the Good old USA. I think that no more than right. We donate to churches to help those in need. Not to pay ANOTHER tax to the government.

    • http://?? Joe H.

      This post is not from me!!1

      • Claire

        JoeH– Oh no, not again. Someone is sure getting their kicks from acting stupid.

        • http://naver samurai

          It may be the same person who has been gunning for me. I notice that sometimes he’s used Claire’s name, JeffH’s name, Joe H’s name, etc., and I think his only intentions are to confuse us, but he’ll ultimately fail in his mission! Keep up the good fight, fellow patriots. FOR GOD AND COUNTRY!

          • libertytrain

            We all forget that while people do use our names sometimes for harm, there also many people with our same names and initials. Not everything is from someone trying to steal our names – the other person’s post were done with harmful intent this post you all are referring to doesn’t follow the same pattern -

  • third party

    Religion helps subdue the masses,to pretend there is a god in the sky who watches over everyone,that’s classic.AS written in Romans 13,submit to your government.JOE,giving to the poor,and needy is in one’s heart,but the criminal activity in all religions is evident for decades,due to more then a few propaganda media old sources.The freedom of information act,one can find out a lot of information not handed down to a passive media.I choose to help one in need,because I understand everyone is in need from time to time,and this helps the human race,not because of a SANTA clause figure in the sky.

    • Robin from Arcadia, IN

      third party… You are so bitter. Your soul is going to live forever. Will you choose smoking or non-smoking? Your life must be a difficult one for you to have so much hate. I am grateful that through all the trials I am facing and all those to come that I can seek out God to give me comfort. Have you ever tried to take your problems to the Lord?

    • coal miner

      third,

      I couldn’t said it any better.Stick to your guns.

      • http://naver samurai

        Why should he? His atheist beliefs are one of the things killing this great country! FOR GOD AND COUNTRY!

    • coal miner

      Third,

      You are right.There is a sexual scandal where a black preacher is involve in.This time,its boys.More boys are coming out and said they had sexual relations with him.This phoney has always maintain that homosexuality is a deadly sin against God.Like I always said,religions are a fraud and a scam.They steal from the poor and give to the rich.Have you look at those mansions they live in and the cars they drive?I think all churches should be taxed.What do you think?

      • http://?? Joe H.

        coal miner,
        If you are the most vile person on earth and molesting kids, does that mean that all coal miners are bad??? Careful how you answer dude!!!

        • coal miner

          JoeH,

          That don’t make sense.So you are supporter of Isreal?And a good christian?
          Jews are God’s chosen people?Here is what on of them had to say about us.

          This article was written in response to the the rise in circulation of the Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion in the United States, and the accompanying increase in discussion of the age-old jewish conspiracy at the time. It is ostensibly a “satire” (or at least claimed by some today to have been a satire), but as can be seen from the article it is more an attempt to “whitewash” the reality of the conspiracy by portraying it as benign, as part of the “jewish imposition of Christianity upon the Western world.”

          Ravage acknowledges the jews are very influential in media, government, and religion, have been behind nearly all major revolutions and wars in our history, and have worked to subvert and shape white European western civilization. But he attempts to “camouflage” and “mitigate” this admission with the big lie that the very religion of the Hebrews and ‘Jesus’ of Nazareth (the bedrock of Western/Christian civilization) is a “jewish” invention, and was foisted upon the white European peoples by the jews as part of this “grand jewish conspiracy.” Thus, if we believed Ravage, this “grand jewish conspiracy” is perhaps “good” because they have “given us Christianity.” According to Ravage, white Europeans are at heart pagans and should return to paganism.

          Accompanying this lie, of course, are Ravage’s false assertions that the “jews” are the descendants of the Israelites and ‘Jesus’ of Nazareth was a “jew.”

          • coal miner

            Joe H,

            Here is what one of God’s chosen people has to say.

            The following article was written by Marcus Eli Ravage, a Jewish writer who was the Rothschilds’ approved biographer. It appeared in THE CENTURY MAGAZINE, JANUARY 1928, Vol. 115, No. 3, pp. 346-350.

            A REAL CASE AGAINST THE JEWS

            One of Them Points Out the Full Depth of Their Guilt

            MARCUS ELI RAVAGE

            OF COURSE, you do resent us. It is no good telling me you don’t. So let us not waste any time on denials and alibis. You know you do, and I know it, and we understand each other. To be sure, some of your best friends are Jews, and all that. I have heard that before once or twice, I think. And I know, too, that you do not include me personally—“me” being any particular individual Jew—when you fling out at us in your wholesale fashion, because I am, well, so different, don’t you know, almost as good as one of yourselves. That little exemption does not, somehow, move me to gratitude; but never mind that now. It is the aggressive, climbing, pushing, materialistic sort you dislike—those, in a word, who remind you so much of your own up-and-coming brethren. We understand each other perfectly. I don’t hold it against you.

            Bless my soul, I do not blame anybody for disliking anybody. The thing that intrigues me about this anti-Jewish business, as you play at it, is your total lack of grit. You are so indirect and roundabout with it, you make such transparent excuses, you seem to be suffering from self-consciousness so horribly, that if the performance were not grotesque, it would be irritating.

            It is not as if you were amateurs: you have been at it for over fifteen centuries. Yet watching you and hearing your childish pretexts, one might get the impression that you did not know yourselves what it is all about. You resent us, but you cannot clearly say why. You think up a new excuse—a “reason” is what you call it—every other day. You have been piling up justifications for yourselves these many hundreds of years and each new invention is more laughable than the last and each new excuse contradicts and annihilates the last.

            Not so many years ago I used to hear that we were money-grubbers and commercial materialists; now the complaint is being whispered around that no art and no profession is safe against Jewish invasion.

            We are, if you are to be believed, at once clannish and exclusive and unassimilable because we won’t intermarry with you, and we are also climbers and pushers and a menace to your racial integrity.

            Our standard of living is so low that we create your slums and sweated industries, and so high that we crowd you out of your best residential sections.

            We shirk our patriotic duty in wartime because we are pacifists by nature and tradition, and we are the arch-plotters of universal wars and the chief beneficiaries of those wars (see the late “Dearborn Independent,” passim, and “The Protocols of the Elders of Zion”).

            We are at once the founders and leading adherents of capitalism and the chief perpetrators of the rebellion against capitalism.

            Surely, history has nothing like us for versatility!

            And, oh! I almost forgot the reason of reasons. We are the stiff-necked people who never accepted Christianity, and we are the criminal people who crucified its founder.

            But I can tell you, you are self-deceivers. You lack either the self-knowledge or the mettle to face the facts squarely and own up to the truth. You resent the Jew not because, as some of you seem to think, he crucified Jesus but because he gave him birth. Your real quarrel with us is not that we have rejected Christianity but that we have imposed it upon you!

            Your loose, contradictory charges against us are not a patch on the blackness of our proved historic offense. You accuse us of stirring up revolution in Moscow. Suppose we admit the charge. What of it? Compared with what Paul the Jew of Tarsus accomplished in Rome, the Russian upheaval is a mere street brawl.

            You make much noise and fury about the undue Jewish influence in your theaters and movie palaces. Very good; granted your complaint is well-founded. But what is that compared to our staggering influence in your churches, your schools, your laws and your governments, and the very thoughts you think every day?

            A clumsy Russian forges a set of papers and publishes them in a book called “The Protocols of the Elders of Zion,” which shows that we plotted to bring on the late World War. You believe that book. All right. For the sake of argument we will underwrite every word of it. It is genuine and authentic. But what is that beside the unquestionable historical conspiracy which we have carried out, which we have never denied because you never had the courage to charge us with it, and of which the full record is extant for anybody to read?

            If you really are serious when you talk of Jewish plots, may I not direct your attention to one worth talking about? What use is it wasting words on the alleged control of your public opinion by Jewish financiers, newspaper owners and movie magnates, when you might as well justly accuse us of the proved control of your whole civilization by the Jewish Gospels?

            You have not begun to appreciate the real depth of our guilt. We are intruders. We are disturbers. We are subverters. We have taken your natural world, your ideals, your destiny, and played havoc with them. We have been at the bottom not merely of the latest great war but of nearly all your wars, not only of the Russian but of every other major revolution in your history. We have brought discord and confusion and frustration into your personal and public life. We are still doing it. No one can tell how long we shall go on doing it.

            Look back a little and see what has happened. Nineteen hundred years ago you were an innocent, care-free, pagan race. You worshipped countless gods and goddesses, the spirits of the air, of the running streams and of the woodland. You took unblushing pride in the glory of your naked bodies. You carved images of your gods and of the tantalizing human figure. You delighted in the combats of the field, the arena and the battle-ground. War and slavery were fixed institutions in your systems. Disporting yourselves on the hillsides and in the valleys of the great outdoors, you took to speculating on the wonder and mystery of life and laid the foundations of natural science and philosophy. Yours was a noble, sensual culture, unirked by the prickings of a social conscience or by any sentimental questionings about human equality. Who knows what great and glorious destiny might have been yours if we had left you alone.

            But we did not leave you alone. We took you in hand and pulled down the beautiful and generous structure you had reared, and changed the whole course of your history. We conquered you as no empire of yours ever subjugated Africa or Asia. And we did it all without armies, without bullets, without blood or turmoil, without force of any kind. We did it solely by the irresistible might of our spirit, with ideas, with propaganda.

            We made you the willing and unconscious bearers of our mission to the whole world, to the barbarous races of the earth, to the countless unborn generations. Without fully understanding what we were doing to you, you became the agents at large of our racial tradition, carrying our gospel to the unexplored ends of the earth.

            Our tribal customs have become the core of your moral code. Our tribal laws have furnished the basic groundwork of all your august constitutions and legal systems. Our legends and our folk tales are the sacred lore which you croon to your infants. Our poets have filled your hymnals and your prayer books. Our national history has become an indispensable part of your pastors and priests and scholars. Our kings, our statesmen, our prophets, our warriors are your heroes. Our ancient little country is your Holy Land. Our national literature is your Holy Bible. What our people thought and taught has become inextricably woven into your very speech and tradition, until no one among you can be called educated who is not familiar with our racial heritage.

            Jewish artisans and Jewish fishermen are your teachers and your saints, with countless statues carved in their image and innumerable cathedrals raised to their memories. A Jewish maiden is your ideal of womanhood. A Jewish rebel-prophet is the central figure in your religious worship. We have pulled down your idols, cast aside your racial inheritance, and substituted for them our God and our traditions. No conquest in history can even remotely compare with this clean sweep of our conquest over you.

            How did we do it? Almost by accident. Two thousand years ago nearly, in far-off Palestine, our religion had fallen into decay and materialism. Money-changers were in possession of the temple. Degenerate, selfish priests mulcted our people and grew fat. Then a young patriot-idealist arose and went about the land calling for a revival of faith. He had no thought of setting up a new church. Like all the prophets before him, his only aim was to purify and revitalize the old creed. He attacked the priests and drove the money-changers from the temple. This brought him into conflict with the established order and its supporting pillars. The Roman authorities, who were in occupation of the country, fearing his revolutionary agitation as a political effort to oust them, arrested him, tried him and condemned him to death by crucifixion, a common form of execution at that time.

            The followers of Jesus of Nazareth, mainly slaves and poor workmen, in their bereavement and disappointment, turned away from the world and formed themselves into a brotherhood of pacifist non-resisters, sharing the memory of their crucified leader and living together communistically. They were merely a new sect in Judea, without power or consequence, neither the first nor the last.

            Only after the destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans did the new creed come into prominence. Then a patriotic Jew named Paul or Saul conceived the idea of humbling the Roman power by destroying the morale or its soldiery with the doctrines of love and non-resistance preached by the little sect of Jewish Christians. He became the Apostle to the Gentiles, he who hitherto had been one of the most active persecutors of the band. And so well did Paul do his work that within four centuries the great empire which had subjugated Palestine along with half of the world, was a heap of ruins. And the law which went forth from Zion became the official religion of Rome.

            This was the beginning of our dominance in your world. But it was only a beginning. From this time forth your history is little more than a struggle for mastery between your own old pagan spirit and our Jewish spirit. Half your wars, great and little, are religious wars, fought over the interpretation of one thing or another in our teachings. You no sooner broke free from your primitive religious simplicity and attempted the practice of the pagan Roman learning than Luther armed with our gospels arose to down you and enthrone our heritage. Take the three principal revolutions in modern times—the French, the American and the Russian. What are they but the triumph of the Jewish idea of social, political and economic justice?

            And the end is still a long way off. We still dominate you. At this very moment your churches are torn asunder by a civil war between Fundamentalists and Modernists, that is to say between those who cling to our teachings and traditions literally and those who are striving by slow steps to dispossess us. In Dayton, Tennessee, a Bible-bred community forbids the teaching of your science because it conflicts with our ancient Jewish account of the origin of life; and Mr. Bryan, the leader of the anti-Jewish Ku Klux Klan in the Democratic National Convention, makes the supreme fight of his life in our behalf, without noticing the contradiction. Again and again the Puritan heritage of Judea breaks out in waves of stage censorship, Sunday blue laws and national prohibition acts. And while these things are happening you twaddle about Jewish influence in the movies!

            Is it any wonder you resent us? We have put a clog upon your progress. We have imposed upon you an alien book and an alien faith which you cannot swallow or digest, which is at cross-purposes with your native spirit, which keeps you everlastingly ill-at-ease, and which you lack the spirit either to reject or to accept in full.

            In full, of course, you never have accepted our Christian teachings. In your hearts you still are pagans. You still love war and graven images and strife. You still take pride in the glory of the nude human figure. Your social conscience, in spite of all democracy and all your social revolutions, is still a pitifully imperfect thing. We have merely divided your soul, confused your impulses, paralyzed your desires. In the midst of battle you are obliged to kneel down to him who commanded you to turn the other cheek, who said “Resist not evil” and “Blessed are the peacemakers.” In your lust for gain you are suddenly disturbed by a memory from your Sunday-school days about taking no thought for the morrow. In your industrial struggles, when you would smash a strike without compunction, you are suddenly reminded that the poor are blessed and that men are brothers in the Fatherhood of the Lord. And as you are about to yield to temptation, your Jewish training puts a deterrent hand on your shoulder and dashes the brimming cup from your lips. You Christians have never become Christianized. To that extent we have failed with you. But we have forever spoiled the fun of paganism for you.

            So why should you not resent us? If we were in your place we should probably dislike you more cordially than you do us. But we should make no bones about telling you why. We should not resort to subterfuges and transparent pretexts. With millions of painfully respectable Jewish shopkeepers all about us we should not insult your intelligence and our own honesty by talking about communism as a Jewish philosophy. And with millions of hard-working impecunious Jewish peddlers and laborers we should not make ourselves ridiculous by talking about international capitalism as a Jewish monopoly. No, we should go straight to the point. We should contemplate this confused, ineffectual muddle which we call civilization, this half-Christian half-pagan medley, and—were our places reversed—we should say to you point-blank: “For this mess thanks to you, to your prophets and to your Bible.”

          • http://naver samurai

            Joe H I think that he’s talking about that favorite dem the Reverand Jessie Jackson who, by the way, had a child with his secretary and thus committed adultery against his wife. I remember him telling everyone to “stay away from the Bushs”, but it seems that he went behind some bushes a bit too often and got caught red handed. Ah yes, another so called pastor that committed a scandal! Darn libs! Just can’t trust them these days! FOR GOD AND COUNTRY!

        • coal miner

          JoeH,

          Reigions and hypocrites:

          hubpages.com/hub/Religion-and-Hy…

          • http://?? Joe H.

            coal dung,
            now that that is out of your system, where in hell did my post or the one I answered of yours have anything to do with Zionists??? At 12:17 PM you were raving on about how religeon is bad because of a few molesters and a few “ministers” that drive lincolns and other big cars. I then said If you are molesting children and such, does that mean that ALL coal miners are vile child molesting fakes?? Then I said be careful how you answer old man!!! Then you went on your rant!! HOW DO THE TWO CONNECT?? WILL YOU ANSWER THE QUESTION???

      • Lewis Munn

        I look at the cars that the pastors in the churches I have been in drive…look like mine, pretty much. In the church I am in now I have helped on repairs to the Pastor’s vehicle at times.

        I have seen the houses they live in..typical houses of the area, not fancy. Some of the congregation help with repairs. I helped diagnose and correct a minor problem in the electrical system.

        I think some people never bother to look at the average churches, but only go on the mega-churches. Be nice if our little country church had a multi-million dollar budget contributed, but we are more typical, more little country churches than mega churches.

        You who wash all churches by the headlines of megachurches should stop off at churches like I attend, and see how the large majority of people are churched. We only make the papers if the church burns down!!

    • coal miner

      third,

      http://www.atlan.org/articles/sacraments/ – 100k – Similar pages

  • lucylu

    THIRD,that’s great,you are right,every religious book states,believe in our religion,or our god or burn in some kind of hell,it’s classic dogma.

    • http://naver samurai

      They may tell these things, but the Judeo-Christian God is the only true God and Jesus is his son. If you believe in God, believe in Jesus and why he came to earth, and live by the ways of the Bible YOU WILL get into heaven.

      John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he sent his only begotten son, that whosoever shall believe in him shall not parish, but have eternal life.”

      God sent Jesus into this world for two reasons:
      1. To call sinners to repentance.
      2. To die on the cross for our sins.

      I can’t tell you what to do, but I hope you don’t listen to the children of the devil like coal miner, norm, third party, etc., for they know where they are going. They want to take you with them. I really hope you go to church and have yourself saved. A good patriot, don’t forget, is a God fearing American. FOR GOD AND COUNTRY!

  • http://www.personalliberty.com V

    For all of you ranting that religion is for the weak-minded, I would have to assume you have never had a truly unique and REAL religious experience. If you had, you would BELIEVE and not be able to rationalize it away. I can only say this due to personal experiences of my own.
    Of course, there are lots of people in churches who are not true Christians, but our Lord knows who they are, I assure you. It is for Him to judge, not us. As far as the money, I say if you don’t put in, you don’t get out…end of story.

  • Tim

    Freedom of speech for religious organizations? There’s no such thing. Most churches have been bullied into believing that they need to be a 503(c) corporation in order to function – this is false. However, if they want to receive “government” assistance programs, they would need this. So, why are some of our churches accepting money from Big Gov and then telling us to shut up about our political stances? Gee, I wonder… Remember, Jesus’ only act of (somewhat) violence was kicking the “money changers” (bankers) out of the synagogue!!!

    Revelation 2:9 – 10 (KJ21)
    I know thy works and tribulation and poverty (but thou art rich), and I know the blasphemy of them that say they are Jews and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.
    (NOTE: is Jesus talking about the Zionists?)

    Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer. Behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried, and ye shall have tribulation ten days. Be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of Life.
    (NOTE: Most times 1 day = 1 year in prophetic terms)

    http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation+2&version=KJ21

    • Kate8

      Tim, the whole idea of silencing the right of church leaders to speak out about politics (or lose tax-exemptions) was put in place by LBJ, because the churches didn’t like him and were hurting his political efforts.

      Government should be completely out of Churches. They certainly do not have the right to silence their right to free speech, guaranteed to all Americans, regardless of ideological status.

      • James

        Kate8, When religious organizations apply for their 501(c)(3) tax exemptions, they agree to this:
        (3) Corporations, and any community chest, fund, or foundation,
        organized and operated exclusively for religious, charitable,
        scientific, testing for public safety, literary, or educational
        purposes, or to foster national or international amateur sports
        competition (but only if no part of its activities involve the
        provision of athletic facilities or equipment), or for the
        prevention of cruelty to children or animals, no part of the net
        earnings of which inures to the benefit of any private shareholder
        or individual, no substantial part of the activities of which is
        carrying on propaganda, or otherwise attempting, to influence
        legislation (except as otherwise provided in subsection (h)), and
        which does not participate in, or intervene in (including the
        publishing or distributing of statements), any political campaign on
        behalf of (or in opposition to) any candidate for public office.

        As you can see, churches with 501(c)(3) tax exemptions agree (were bribed?) to refrain from political activity. Just recently a church in New England lost its tax-exempt status for preaching against some government activity.

        • Kate8

          James, I understand that they agree to this. Still, it was LBJ who did this, for the reasons I mentioned (and as part of the incremental communist/progressive movement toward silencing the church and making it ultimately irrelevant).

          The point is, making them sign such a thing in order to be tax-exempt goes against our Constitutional rights to free speech. Nowhere are churches excluded (and the court just ruled that corporations cannot be excluded!) This is discriminatory toward Christians of a conservative bent, as it is never enforced against the liberal factions.

          The government is required to STAY OUT OF CHURCHES ALTOGETHER. They should have NO restrictions placed upon them.

          I can’t believe we’ve allowed this to go on this long. That’s how dumbed-down and manipulated we’ve all been.

          • s c

            Kate8, people must realize the FACT that there is NO true separation of church and state in fascist Amerika. Frau Pelosi is but one of many of fascism’s cheerleaders.
            Let progressives, domestic enemies and the false ‘gods’ they toil for say what they want. They are LIARS, and in matters of ‘separation of church and state,’ the truth is not in them. As for Caesar [aka Uncle Scam], time will settle that score.
            What Uncle Scam has tried to do is to ‘bless’ us with a modern version of old Rome. Rome deserved to fall. This not old Rome, but there are many ‘Amerikans’ who would love to re-create that failed system (whether we want it or not).

          • James

            Kate, Your “making them sign such a thing” assumes 26 USC 501(c)(3) requires all religious organizations to apply for this tax-exempt status, then obey the restrictions. Not true, applying for this tax-exemption is optional. Churches, that would like to withdraw from this program and speak out about political affairs, may do so anytime they want. This feature of the tax code is where the ‘separation of church and state’ doctrine originated, but no one is required by law to apply for a tax exemption.

          • Kate8

            James, No, they do not have to apply for tax exemption, and there are some who don’t because they don’t want to be shackled by government.

            Churches were already tax exempt before LBJ intituted that requirement. THE GOVERNMENT HAS NO PLACE TAXING CHURCHES, whether they sign the damned thing or not. Churches are supposed to be free. They have provided many services freely, too, to people in need. They were the ONLY source of help before government saw an opportunity to use “assistance” as another means of control and growth.

            This is my point. The requirement to be silenced or pay is unconstitutional.

          • James

            Kate8, Prior to religious organizations being added to the 501(c)(3) tax-exemption, they were taxable just like any other recipient of ‘income.’ The First Amendment reads: “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof.” However, that has never been held to mean that religious establishments may not be taxed, if they receive “income” in excess of a certain amount. When Congress added churches to 501(c)(3), the obvious purpose was to end their political activity.

    • http://naver samurai

      Actually he was referring to the Church at Smyrna. You know, where their pastor, Polycarp, was brought before Caesar and told to worship him as a god and to get rid of his misguided faith in the real God and his son Jesus. Polycarp wouldn’t deny his faith and was burned at the stake for it. They being rich was being rich in good works and in faith and had nothing to do with Zionists. Please quit twisting scripture to fit your own twisted beliefs. FOR GOD AND COUNTRY!

  • Carole Howell

    Good point Tim about Jesus may have been addressing the Zionists, makes sense.

    • http://naver samurai

      Please read my post above.

  • coal miner

    Coal Miner’s Quote for the day,

    Among the sayings and discourses imputed to him [Jesus] by his biographers, I find many passages of fine imagination, correct morality, and of the most lovely benevolence; and others again of so much ignorance, so much absurdity, so much untruth, charlatanism, and imposture, as to pronounce it impossible that such contradictions should have proceeded from the same being.

    Thomas Jefferson to William Short(April 13,1820)

    • Viktor Leben

      Jefferson was crazy !

    • http://naver samurai

      He also held Sunday services every Sunday he was in the White House.

    • coal miner

      Also,

      Christianity was born of the myths of sun worship. Horus of Egypt born December 25th, performed miracles called the Lamb of light, performed miracles was resurrected in three days like many other avatars; Mithra, Krishna, Attis, Dionysus, king of kings, alpha omega crucified. All had 12 disciples and the sacred day of worship was sunday. Scientific explanations… The Solar Messiah myth is represented with God’s sun who moves along through the 12 houses. From Pisces to Aquarius. The Apocalypse. End Times misinterpreted. 100 million Americans believe in the end of the world. Holy Ghost immaculate conception virgin birth all relate to sun worship.

  • http://personallibertydigest Clarence Crosby ,Hubert ,NC

    You can bet this new unconstitutional law will not apply to the nation of islam .

  • http://gmail i41

    As long as jug ears is in the WH, and he keeps appointing dikes and perverts to make laws, not interpt them as they were designed to be. If the goat rangler pervs get their wish and keep bothering non muslims, I’m sure a equalizer can be developed and a used. Some times you can keep on messing with people mindig their business and giving symathy and get pushed around and at sometime thing will come unwound. I have seen some pretty serious a$$ kicking and helped when so peaceful smaller organism is getting bothered. Marxist democrats and perverted muslims just cann’t understand what transpire when people get pushed in any form.

    • Viktor Leben

      Hey i41, can’t we all just get along ? Just write Prez Obama and tell him how you feel. We all should email the Prez and give him advice.

  • Claire

    The government should stay out of any churchs’ business. Also, when I attend church I want to hear the word of God, not anything about politics. I do not go to church to hear about politicians, I go to hear God’s word.

    • Kate8

      Claire, true, in a sense. And churches today, since they can’t afford to keep losing members, will compromise in many ways to avoid offending anyone.

      Think about what churches are supposed to do, though. They are supposed to stand for standards of morality, for God’s laws. When people in government come out for legislation and policies that go directly contrary to the Laws of God, don’t you think it is their duty to speak of it to their congregations? Are they not supposed be there for spiritual support and direction?

      Of what use are they if they are silenced from speaking about the ways our governing policies affect our daily lives and values? God is not just something to Whom we give a wink on Sabbath. He is a part of everything we do, think and say. When we are only allowed to view Him as symbolic tradition, with no real relevance to society, then we get what we have in our world today.

      Another problem is, only certain churches are held to this gag rule. All the Jesse Jacksons, Al Sharptons, Jeremiah Wrights and Louis Farrakhans are allowed to spew freely.

      • Claire

        Kate8–You make a strong point, especially with the names you mentioned at the bottom of your post. Those men cannot keep their mouths shut and are incapable of common sense. And when they talk it is nothing but gobbelty-gook (psychobabble). As a kid, I can remember the tent revivals–all hellfire and brimstone. The hollering, etc. I guess I am so used to my church and pastors now. They conduct their sermons with the true spirit of God. I can remember during 9/11, the Iraqi war, and whenever anything bad like that happened, they would ask us to pray for the safety of our soldiers, America, and all Americans. But they have not harped on politics per se, they always ask for God’s wisdom in leading us down the correct path during election time. They have never pushed a political party.

        • Kate8

          Claire, You are right, they should not promote a particular party. But I do think it is proper that they look at where our officials stand on the issues, and also address the issues. What is more relevant to the plight of our nation?

          • Claire

            Kate8–I understand what you are saying. My pastors refer to the “trying and troubled times” we live in so in essence they are referring to the problems at hand they just go about it in a “roundabout” way. The “trying and troubled times” are included in a lot of prayers.

      • James

        Kate8, I agree. Jesus was nailed to a cross because of His political activity. If any church [with a 501(c)(3) exemtion] preaches for or against some act of Congress, they should be sued in a federal District Court for violating their agreement to refrain from such.

  • James

    Again, all have missed the purpose of the First Amendment. The Bill would violate the amendment, not just the right. It reads: “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof.” The word “respecting” means: ‘concerning;’ and “establishment” is a noun, not a verb. An establishment of religion, is any existing religious organization.
    The amendment prohibits congress from making any law (pro or con) concerning the subject of religion.
    Whether one loves or hates the proposed legislation is beside the point, the First Amendment is an absolute bar against such federal legislation. If one can’t use the amendment’s first five words in a sentence, his/her understanding of it is perverse.

  • http://gmail i41

    Victor, I have called the idoit since the pistol grip jug eared jackass got into office along with many of the jackasses in the beltway pasture. There is a number to the WH and to The National Marxist Democrat Commnist Party in Washington, so far my dem sen and reps will not debate their sorry records, and especaially the stimulas bill for shovel ready projects. Since they keep records, I tell the aides to pull the records up and send them on again, so they can remember their BS letters and what my follow up comments and phone calls told them, that they were full of stupidity crap. They all got contacted again when idoi jacka$$t was talking about more infrastucture building program. It will not happen for at least 9-11 years, since it is too late in the season and there is a mountain of new paper chasing hearings and BS studies coming. None of these f–kheads have every done anything, but theorize and go to school and sit on their lard a$$es. Running a CAD prgram and playing with numbers is just a screw of game and doesn’t move dirt or put concrete in forms, or put material together.

  • Wally Pieper

    I’m just a country boy with limited book learnin’ but can anyone tell me why or how or what religious organization takes Fed Gonernment money?

    Wally Pieper

  • L.J.

    I would like to know ‘what’ or WHO is keeping those so-called lawsuits from going forward challenging the Constitutionality of the “health-care’ bill? Also, anyone else notice how the progressives in Congress who consistently voted with obama on all his communist initiatives are “moving away from Reid and Pelosi ONLY because there is an election coming? Those of you who are strong-willed enough to speak your mind and tell others where they are going wrong, get the news out that this is the usual democratic-liberal trick to deceive the voters to GET–THEIR–VOTES!It happens all the time! Remember when click Willie moved to center and agreed with conservatives to get re-elected?
    Sort of reminds me of a couple of kids who are quarreling with one another and keep telling their parents “he’s doing it again” to get the guilty one in trouble. They just won’t quit and their movements never change, and I guess that’s because so many Americans are so damned ignorant, stupid and uncaring enough about their country that they buy into this crap! I wish they would all spend a year under a Marxist regime. When, and if, they came hone they’d be singing a different song!
    I read an interesting book recently and it stated that there are 9 steps that communists take to enslave a country–I see all 9 occurring with Osama bin Obama’s illegal administration.

  • Karen W.

    Churches need to get off the government dole. If you are taking government money for your church you should get off of it now. What ever happened to trusting God? I know so many Churches funded by the Gov not the God. If you are Gov funded you have no rights to complain but you will just have to obey Uncle Sam. Get some Christian gonads and stop it so you can speak out. Churches need to get Political. I mean really, the Muslims are…..get with it.

    • James

      Karen, Churches are not on any government dole. The First Amendment is an absolute bar against that.

    • James

      Karen, if you meant churches should rescind their 501(c)(3) agreement, then start to speak out, I agree.

  • Michael is confused?

    Let me get this straight.. My Goverment is giving Religious Organizations money so they can fund the Substance Abuse and Mental Health Services? isn’t that an oximoron?

    I mean, you try to get people off a substance and drill another “religion” into their minds. Then you try to help the mentally ill, while at the same time explaining to them that there is this guy that lives above the clouds and does miracles. So confusing and such a waste of money. church and State should never get involved with the other. period.

    • James

      Michael, if the government does that, it would be a violation of the First Amendment. That’s the whole point here.

      • Michael is confused?

        I don’t know, I kinda read things different. Seems to me Religion wants to be TAX free and live off my taxes plus be prejudice at the same time taking fed money. At which point their exempt should end. They just should not mix. I see nothing but bad comming from churches. IF, the church wants fed money for things, they should be paying the FED tax to boot and under all the laws the FED wish to apply to them.

        • James

          Michael, churches don’t live off of your taxes, their income is provided by their members. If you want Congress to regulate churches, then the First Amendment (an absolute bar against that) would have to be repealed. Churches have the right to speak out against certain government activity, like everyone else, unless they have applied for a 501(c)(3) tax exemption status, which is an agreement to refrain from political activity.

  • GodsKid

    I’ve read all of your comments with interest – and considerable distress. You see, its painful to observe people speaking past one another – everyone trying to get “an upper hand”. I’m going to avoid singling anyone out, especially as I see it clearly on many fronts here. Considering the intensity I think some of you hold in your convictions, however, you’ve typically been appropriately respectful in engaging those of other persuasions. There have been some notable exceptions. I would only encourage all of us to remember an old Iriqouis parable: “… walk a mile in another man’s shoes, then speak.”

    For me: I am thoroughly covinced(by experiences I won’t recite here) that Truth has been captured for mankind in the tenets of the Christian faith. But I will also fight for the “rights” of every other persuasion: Muslim (Sunni and/or Shiite), Buddhism, Hinduism,
    Judaism, paganism, agnosticism, aetheism, hedonism, humanism, … Yes, its unfortunate that too many followers of any of these dogmas have used that as an excuse to deprive other persuasions. None of us, including me, can plead innocence on this. But, surprise, that only convinces me the Judaeo- Christian view of a world captured by God’s enemy (Satan, the devil, Beezlebub) is also part of the Truth. And every true adherent to Christian – and Jewish – doctrine looks forward to a coming day when our Messiah will rescue us from this plight.

    Satan is The only one to gain by keeping us at odds with one another over the centuries. We believe he, who is a rebellious angel, desires to alieniate every one of us from God; he does not want to end up in hell alone. Whether we actually follow through on bigotry or simply avoid our neighbor in suspicion, we have played into Satan’s ploys. He will use every deception available to persuade us all to deny and attack one another. (The Christian who accuses Jews of being the people who killed Christ are wrong; actually the Romans -1st century Italian Gentiles – tried, convicted and executed Christ. Any Jew who believes the Church abandoned their people during the Holocaust are equally wrong; in a few concentration camps, the anti- religious Nazis killed as many as one Christian for every 3 Jews. Today, any Moslem calling for the annihilation of Israel is listening to the same deceptive, damned voice.)

    However, I am also persuaded that religion and government are two distinct institutions given to mankind by a loving God. Throughout history – from ancient theocratic Egypt and later Israel, to modern Sharia- espousing Moslem states – mankind has tried to mix the two. I believe our Founding Fathers wisely chose to advocate these two institutions; we would be wise to follow their lead. Both the authority and resources of each should be preserved, without the intermixing we are witnessing today. Both should retain the right to openly discuss and even criticize the other without concern for undue influence or repercussions.

    Indeed the problem really seems to be that, as they become sufficiently powerful and influential, people of any given persuasion believe they inherit the prerogative to dictate to others. (Yes, the Christian community was guilty of this assumption in certain colonies as our nation was being formed.) Instead, wisdom would instruct us to humbly assess the ebb-and-flow of history: regardless of who we seem to be today, tomorrow we may be on the way “down and out”. (For that matter, the United States only assumed her role as The world power from Great Britain in the 1940s. Now, there’s mounting evidence that we may be already handing that role and privilege to Communist China. Dispute this if you want, but its becoming obvious the Chinese already have a more robust economy, military and religious sector than do we. I pray daily for US, but…)

    Hey, the underlying problem is the same that impacts God’s plans. We are – not unlike Satan, who Jesus called “your father” – all beset by a predisposition to sin. We want it “our way”…”now”. Every human institution, including government and religion, are filled by people, who are prone to impose their ways upon others. Indeed, I think that’s why God provides so many institutions as checks upon one another. The Christian believes a day is coming, when believers will willingly submit to a millenial reign of Christ – a time when mercy and Truth, humility and righteousness will perfectly meet. Until that time, we should all seek to tolerate and support one another.

    The only one who is “stupid” is that one who calls his brother (or sister) ignorant.

    • James

      GodsKid, your go-along to get-along theology is certainly popular. However the Bible says the only religion God created on earth is Christianity. It says the deniers of Christ are the anti-Christs. Jude 4 reads: “For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.” 2 John 9 reads: “Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God.” I could go on…and on…and on, should Christians ignore all of that?

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