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Prosperity Can Return, And The Fix is Simple

March 8, 2010 by  

Prosperity Can Return, And The Fix is Simple

Income tax to the Federal Government is not for income to the government—not one penny.

What is it for then? It is for social control. This is a fiat money syndrome. Fiat paper money causes more direct government control over citizens. In filing Federal Income Tax forms people reveal a complete profile of their public as well as their private lives.

The system requires that the people must believe that Federal income taxes are for income flow to the Federal Government. Nonsense, nonsense. No fiat (money) goes to Washington as taxes!

Where does it go? It returns to ether, from whence it came. Where does the Federal Government get its money? Modern government money is electronic. It is not your taxes.

And in reality, Federal Government has no debt. How can the Federal Government have debt with electronic money that is nothing more than computer symbols that can be created to infinity?

Every egghead in the land believes that there is Federal debt. The Federal debt elves have gotten into their heads. They totally misunderstand monetary realism.

Oh yes, the Federal debt hoax has a serious purpose. It throws sand in our eyes to keep the people from waking up to the fact that the Federal Government just creates all the “money.” There might be an “income tax” rebellion if a goodly number of people discovered the Federal debt hoax. Come now, if you could create trillions in electronic money, would you have debt? No, you wouldn’t, and neither does the Federal Government.

The income tax is totally a propaganda system to keep the population from discovering the nature of Federal Government finance. Income tax is not about money going to Washington as taxes.

It is about control and social engineering of transferring production and wealth from the producers to the non-producers, and it comes right out of Karl Marx’s Manifesto.

And dear friends, can you even imagine the parasite load of accountants and lawyers pretending to help the Federal Government collect taxes? They actually believe that they are collecting taxes. They have no concept of reality.

I challenge any living being to disprove what I have written here. What we need is truth.

The hour is past late.

Greed and vested interest have brought America to a state of collapse. Accountants and lawyers are parasites on the income tax fraud.

Since the income tax does not supply income to the government it can be permanently abolished. After all, Federal income tax was nil until 1939.

It’s all very simple except for the giant cover of deceit and fraud in America. Elimination of the Federal income tax would restore confidence and a new day of prosperity and economic relief.

Domestic labor could and would be cheaper and corporations which have moved offshore would move back.

America is not in economic trouble except for the fraud of politicians and vested interests. President Obama would have to know this.

Abolishing the income tax would eliminate the oppression of a whole army of tax collectors and their lackey accountants and lawyers. This would make way for sound and honest healthcare and Social Security.

Abolishing the income tax would not cost the United States government a dime. Federal income tax is the scam of and scourge of history used by tyrants to oppress the people and make them support a perpetual increase in the size of government.

What I have said here does not apply to state and local governments. All of you know that they can’t print money or create money electronically as does the Federal Government.

The American people need to know the truth now about the fraud and deceit of the Federal income tax. It will never be debated in the controlled media or by the politicians. They don’t want you to know.

But only 1 percent of the “taxpayers” could start an income tax rebellion simply by telling the truth to fellow Americans. It is our last chance!

Bob Livingston

is an ultra-conservative American who has been writing a newsletter since 1969. Bob has devoted much of his life to research and the quest for truth on a variety of subjects. Bob specializes in health issues such as nutritional supplements and alternatives to drugs, as well as issues of privacy (both personal and financial), asset protection and the preservation of freedom.

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  • Yandle

    The most important thing you said is “What we need is truth” and so correct.

  • Gul B.

    While we are at it repeal the 17th Amendment and let states truly follow their duty & right granted by the 10th Amendment. Congress should be strictly limited to the eight items given to it by the Constitution.
    Limit the powers of The “Liar” in Chief and the whole “gaggle” of liars in the District of Corruption (DC).

    • James

      Gul B., The 10th Amendment didn’t grant a right to the States. It is a statement by the States to the federal government (i.e. the United States) that powers not delegated to it are reserved to the States or to the people. The States created the federal government, they existed before the federal government was created and held all of the power before that.

  • Robin from Arcadia, IN

    I have been telling many people I know that we need to go to the Fair Tax. The IRS needs to be abolished! And since the Federal Government doesn’t need it, it can go to the states. Taxing consumables is the only fair way.

    • Free Me

      There is NO FAIR TAX! Why does everyone seem to NEED TO HAVE A TAX?! Read the book The Creature from Jekyll Island by G. Edward Griffin and you’ll understand why the paradigm of “we must pay these taxes” that must be terminated along with the IRS, IMF and the FED.

      • Fed Up Gal in NM

        Free Me,

        I tend to agree….in an ideal world, but I don’t see that happening now or in the near future….so, my thought is at least we should try and give Obama and his gang of thieves some change in the form of their own medicine (example: implement a fair tax and ditch the current health care reform package and start over with realistic proposals). Also, we wouldn’t need such high taxes if the taxpayers money was only being spent on things like infrastructure, national defense, etc. There’s so much added fat that can and must be cut out.

        We the people need to loudly let Obama, Reed, Pelosi and any/all Democrats/Republicans who vote or have voted for an extremely unpopular & unwanted healthcare reform package being passed through the back door…not to mention…stop tacking on other bills as a bribe to each other for signing on to their bill of “stench”.

        Fed Up Gal

        • Skip None

          Yeah! lets get rid of the post office to start!

        • We the People

          You pay income tax? Are you a foreign corporation or a partner to a foreign corporation or earn money from virgin islands? Then you, my friend, are a very generous patriot. Read the IRS code.

  • chas l.

    Great article. We know income tax is wrong, but what can we do about it other than writing our elected officials and getting the word out too others? I feel like i am trapped.

    • DaveH

      Chas,
      We can vote for the only Political Party that calls for the repeal of the Income Tax as part of their platform. The only Party that truly believes in Individual Responsibility, Individual Freedom, Free Markets, and Limited Government:
      http://libertarianparty.org/platform

      • DaveH

        If you are one of those people who hangs desperately on the decades-old Apprehension of Split-Votes fostered by the Major Parties, then at least Register Libertarian, so you can help grow our numbers. Then, if you must, vote for your favorite RINO in a vain attempt to shrink government.

        • Joe H.

          daveH,
          I understand where you are coming from but I will not give up my right to help determine who is the candidate for the republican party. what are you going to do if an outright liberal hijacks both parties? I’m not willing to take that chance at this time!!!

          • DaveH

            Republicans were hijacked a long time ago. You can keep Hoping and Dreaming like the Democrats, but nothing is going to change by the Republican Party.
            The Republicans have been complicit in building the Big Government framework that the Democrats are using to their advantage. Republican leaders like their money and power and perks just like the Democrat leaders do. Republicans just have a different agenda. They vainly seek to stop people from abusing their own bodies and property at huge cost to our taxes and freedom. And the Democrats have used that loss of freedom to further their agenda of a Socialist takeover. As far as I’m concerned, the Republicans have aided and abetted the Democrats.
            I would think Scott Brown would be a wake-up call, but obviously die-hard Republicans aren’t going to wake up until it’s too late.

          • Free Me

            Totally Right Bill! I’m with you 100 trillion (hey, we’re close to that debt now aren’t we?) But hey, they have the sheeple believing that THEY (not me) must pay back the debt! What a joke! WE GET ROBBED by the bankers and THEY and the government make the dummy people believe that THEY were at fault and that WE will have to pay!!! I really can’t stop laughing at that one. People are just plain dumb and they get what they deserve.

        • http://www.arbonnebycarole.myarbonne.com Carole

          Dave when you lower taxes on Corperations then they can hire more people when you raise corperate taxes in order to stay competitive in the USA you have to fire the employees and purchased products from China to stay competivie in the usa so it is basis econmics 101

      • George E

        Dave,

        If the income tax was repealed, which I’m interested in doing, what would the Libertarian Party replace it with? How would we fund the federal government without an income tax?

        • DaveH

          There are many tax schemes that are much less onerous than the Income Tax System – Flat Rate Tax, Fair Tax, and best of all (it’ll never happen though) a true Flat Tax where each Adult pays the same amount. The beauty of a true Flat Tax is that people would be shocked into reality by the huge cost of all this Government “Protection” (isn’t that what the Mafia used to offer?). You can bet Government would shrink dramatically if everybody paid the same. Of course, many people have been brainwashed to think that wouldn’t be fair. Why not?
          Don’t we expect equal protection from the Government? We don’t pay more or less, based on our income, to buy our cars do we? Or our Groceries, so why for our Government?

          • George E

            Dave,

            Thanks for the explanation. I haven’t thought about the “true” flat tax before, but I can see how a tax like that would be simple and equitable for all. I had heard about a flat tax in terms of a flat percentage tax, but not a flat amount tax like I think you are proposing. I don’t favor the flat percentage tax because that would keep everything in place, including the IRS, and just simplify the tax code temporarily. This would be a great thing to do, but over time would surely be transformed back into a complex tax code like we have today, with no permanent gains.

            I agree that a flat amount tax would be great and ensure that no one would be taxed more than those least able to pay the tax. That would really take a bite out of the federal budget because it would 1) highlight how much our government is really costing us by combining all these taxes into one, and 2) ensure that taxes couldn’t be raised higher than the poorest citizen could afford. But, like you say a flat amount tax is probably not a viable option in today’s political climate. Progressives have taught us over the years, and we now accept the premise that an income tax should be progressive so the rich pay more than the poor.

            Prior to hearing about a flat amount tax, I favored a national consumption tax, like the Fair Tax, since it would also abolish the IRS and tax code, make the process of raising taxes simple with very low overhead costs, and make it voluntary since people can largely decide what and when to buy, unlike income taxes which tax you when you earn. Also, a nice feature of a consumption tax would be that no one would have to file a tax return since taxes would be collected and paid by businesses who sell to us. On the other hand, a flat amount tax would do a better job of highlighting the cost of government than a consumption tax. It would also be neutral in terms of incentivizing us to save or spend, unlike a consumption tax which would clearly incent saving over spending. Certainly it would probably help the economy if we did save more, but a sudden shift from an income tax to a consumption tax could really cause a dramatic reduction in spending which could create a short term disruption (recession), I think.

          • DaveH

            You’re right about the short-term disruption, George. But there comes a time when we have to stop throwing good money after bad.
            You’re obviously a thinker. I like that.

          • George E

            Thanks Dave. I always enjoy reading your posts and have come to respect you opinions. I’ve learned a number of things from you. I believe we are at odds somewhat over whether it’s best to endorse a 3rd party or try to reform the Republican Party, but other than that, I don’t know of any other disagreements between us. Even then, I will try to keep an open mind and try to do what’s best for the country as we try to rid ourselves of the socialist/progressive/fascists that have got their grip on our country. I’m not a died-in-the-wool Republican, but I am a die-hard capitalist, and generally speaking, conservative with a healthy dose of libertanism thrown in for good measure.

          • http://www.NRA.com Stephaan

            Dave H,
            Re: the flat tax where every adult pays the same amount.
            How or who would pay for all the welfare cases, the illegal aliens, the unemployed, the indigent people who have no money to eat, much less pay tax with, and all the others who have no money to pay ANY tax?
            Who is going to pay the taxes for them? I’m thinking that the government would just pass all that on to us, and the “flat tax” would just keep increasing every year as the gov. just kept getting bigger and bigger, and keeps spending more and more money. Aren’t we going to keep getting more of the same screwin under the flat tax scenario?
            Also when you say “adults” what age would that be? If 21 y.o. then would that exempt all working people younger than that and would they pay nothing? That would be a lot of money for our gov. to be willing to give up. The 16 to 20 y.o. age group is large, and even though they are in a “low pay” (minimum wage) group they still pay a lot of taxes.

            George E.
            I agree with your opinion on Dave H. He is one of the most intelligent individuals, best posters, and most level headed on here. (except for his 3rd party vote wasting hopes and dreams idea)
            I also agree with you about NOT WASTING OUR VOTES on 3rd party candidates WHO CAN’T POSSIBLY WIN, and giving the presidency over to the Liberal Socialists like we have in the white house now. Help me to convince Dave H., (and others on here) that his vote is wasted when he votes for a 3rd party candidate who can’t possibly win. I have tried but my words are not able to convince him, because he is very stubborn. ;-)
            To me, voting for a 3rd party candidate “who can’t win”, is like repeatedly hitting your head with a 5lb. hammer, and thinking your head is not going to hurt. 3rd party vote wasters are doing
            irreparable damage to our country.

        • James

          George E, To repeal the income tax, we would have to repeal the 16th Amendment, which empowered the federal government to lay a direct tax on income without regard to any census or enumeration. Prior to that, the feds were limited to apportioning such direct taxes according to the number of people (see Art. I, Sect. 9, Cl. 4). The tax could be no more than what the poorest state could afford. In our history, only five such taxes were laid.

          • George E

            Thanks James. I appreciate your input.

      • Rick

        Though I Totatally agree with the “fiat” computer digit money fiasco, I find it very hard to believe that a group of our elected leaders have not stood up against their colleages and demanded action be taken on this issue.
        I realize they can NOT stand alone because they would be laughed out of the chamber halls of Congress. We have at least 30 elected Reps that are for Constitutionalism and 30 standing together could put the word out there.

      • Skip None

        Paying taxes is not the problem. It’s the people spending the tax dollars that is the problem. You need to understand one thing. The people in the Congress are therefor one reason and one reason only. To get re-elected and keep their job. Most of tax money goes to “BUY” votes. Whether it’s more money for food stamps and welfare, or to build a new airport that isn’t needed. If you vote for me I’ll make sure you don’t have tro work if you don’t want to. If you vote for me I’ll make sure your firm gets the contract to bild the new airport. Once you realize that the politicans are there only to keep a job then you’ll realize that we need to fire them. The longer they are in office the more corrupt they become. So we need term limits and we need to lower their salary. Most are already very wealthy, so do they really need $174,000 salary plus expenses for everything no. Make them work for a normal wage of $50,000 a year. Make them pay income taxes, social security, and their own halth care just like everyone else. Make them buy thir own retirement plan just as we must do. Next add term limits and most importantThrow the BUMS OUT!

        • http://www.arbonnebycarole.myarbonne.com Carole

          you are aboslutley right on Skip None please have not read the Constution, The Declaration Of Independence, The Bill of Rights,The federalist papers or the magna carta so I call it tricle Down Poverty Steal from the rich to give to the poor it is just so wrong America has this entltlement mentality and Unemployment Mentality they think the goverment is there for a free handout to illegal aleins and the homeless I say start a back to work program get ther ged and start looking if they can’t find a job no more welfare for them and there 16 kids If I where president I would do away with thpublic schools just have charter schools Vocher programs and give credits to parents who homeschool there children that is one big burocracy gone then next take all the medicare and medicade fraud use retired Judges in every state and students who just got out of law school and demand they come in for a hearing if they can wlk and talk they can find a job Throw the Bums illegal aleins out of the country to many free things for them I am not taking it any more

    • Tea Bagger Tim

      You might also want to check out:

      http://www.constitutionparty.com/

      A number of people are unaware (myself included until just recently) that the constitution was not the original document of governement for our country. The country originally was a Federation, within 10 years the founders saw our country slipping into anarchy, which eventually would have led to a monarchy. The constitution was the document that sealed our governement as a republic, under which our freedom is protected by the rule of law. It seems that we have drifted a long way from the shores of freedom.

      • DaveH

        Here is a comparison of political parties in the US (scroll down a little past halfway to a comparison chart):
        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_parties_in_the_United_States

        The Constitution Party has a definite religious orientation, and while I would embrace Religious people over Liberals any day, I don’t think it works for them to try and legislate morality. I’m talking about the kind of morality like vice-crimes where a person is only harming their own body or property. The Government has no business trying to protect people from themselves.

        • Tea Bagger Tim

          There was a time that I felt the same, especially on the vice-crimes. At a point, however, it became apparent that all legislation was based on some moral standard, then the questions became whose moral standards should be held, what source would be used to derive them and on what basis should they be impossed?

          After a great deal of research and reading of the founders, it was more than apparent that they held firmly to religous beliefs and it was these beliefs that shaped the country. These beliefs were tested by time and true, they were unchangable and irrefutable. The framework of the Constitution was laid within these beliefs and our Constitution could not and would not exist without them.

          A complete absense of moral standards ultimately leads to anarchy. Anarchy at its fullfillment will lead to a monarchy or worse yet a dictatorship. The Constitution was formed to provide as much freedom as possible, yet still maintain civility through the rule of law.

          Unfortantly, even vice-crimes have victims other than the offender and many times the victim is far more personal than society at large. Crimes, whether vice or any other, are no more enforcable than the speed limit. If someone wants to drive 100 in a school zone the law can not stop them. It can however and should punish them.

          That withstanding, I respect your ideas and appreciate that on occassion there has been the opportunity for civil discussion.

          • Vicki

            Who are the victims other than the “offender”?

          • Tea Bagger Tim

            The victims can be family or friends. They can be co-workers or employers. The effects on these groups alone can and are devistating.

          • DaveH

            Life by itself brings risk, Tim. None of us will get out of it alive. That kind of thinking is what has destroyed so much of our freedom already.

          • DaveH

            And, by the way, the effects not only “can be devastating”, they are devasting, right now, with the futile attempts by Government busybodies to control peoples’ choices:
            http://mises.org/daily/2495

    • D Reed

      We also could read Cracking the Code and file forms to take back our taxes because they weren’t rightfully taken. The book is a compilation of Supreme court and state court quotations declaring that not everything is “income” and for non government employees, profits only can be taxed. Our labor is not profit and therefore not taxable. This is the beginning for the tax protest. No jail time, no fighting with IRS agents. They see a form and they become automatons. We need to use this. We need to know exactly how the law is written. This book will point you to the codes.
      The no direct taxes clause was never repealed or abolished. The IRS hopes you never know that or know what the difference is between an “excise” and a “head tax” (a direct tax).
      http://www.losthorizons.com

    • Buffy Wells

      You are SO right. Congress will NEVER allow a fair tax, they are too attached to their pork and privileges (that no one else ever gets, including being paid for life after they leave office). We need to change 1. TERM LIMITS 2. FAIR TAX 3. ABOLISH IRS 4. CONGRESS CAN NEVER RAISE THEIR OWN PAY 5. CONSEQUENCES FOR LIARS, CHEATS, THIEVES AND TRAITORS IN CONGRESS

      That will be the day.

  • CJ

    If the Federal Government has no debt, tell that to the other countries who “hold” our debt papers. True, the Fed can just “print” their payment when they call it, but it’s still a debt on the books, and those who hold those papers CAN effect our economy. With a fiat system, we all pay as long as the presses are running. It’s called inflation. So, can we really say there is no debt?

  • CJ

    As for taxes, they ALWAYS trickle down. The rich NEVER pay taxes, they just transfer them to the bottom comsumers. If the rich get a tax raise, they increase the cost of their services. It’s human nature to avoid taxes, and businesses hire lawyers to find the loopholes to stay in business around them. Penalties in law suites and tax increases, all on businesses, ALWAYS get passed to the consumer. Even if the business is forced close, it reduces supply in the system, and prices go up. In every way, the consumer pays. It’s basic economics.

    • DaveH

      So true CJ. No matter who the actual tax-payer is, Big Government Costs affect all of the citizens.
      Government does more than waste our money, they also hamper the productivity of our producers with the myriad regulations they put on them.
      http://www.heritage.org/index/

      • DaveH

        Wake up people! Government has grown way past the size needed to protect us from the trespasses of others; they are just feathering their own nests. And both major parties are Guilty.

        • George E

          Yes, both major political parties, and all other politicians as well…….. Politics will always be corrupting so long as they have access to a lot of our money, with lack of transparency and oversight.

      • George E

        Yes.

    • Raggs

      I have known several business that change the company name annually to avoid taxes, Or they file a form of bankruptcy and change the company over to a “new owner” which is employed there.

    • Doug

      Please explain how the Rich don’t pay taxes? Are you aware many small business are considered rich people and probably pay more taxes than most large corporations?

      • J C

        True. Self employed small businesses are squarely in the cross hairs of tax tyranny.

      • DaveH

        What CJ meant is that it is the consumers of their goods and services that ultimately pay the taxes through higher costs of those goods and services.

        • J C

          Fair enough. Let’s not forget the role played by protectionism and tariffs where high costs are concerned also.

  • Tony

    I have a question?

    Under Article I section 9 of the Constitution it says “No Capitation, or other direct, Tax shall be laid” so how does the income tax get around this? Before you jump an say the 16th Amendment look at what the Supreme Court had to say about the 16TH Amendment.

    “The Sixteenth Amendment…..does not extend the taxing power to new or excepted subjects….
    Peck & Co. v. Lowe, 247 U.S. 165, at 172 (1918)

    The Supreme Court ruled exactly that in Eisner v. Macomber, 252 U.S. 189 (1920), where the Court stated the following: “The 16th Amendment must be construed in connection with the taxing clauses of the original Constitution and the effect attributed to them before the Amendment was adopted.”

    What this means is the taxing power congress had before the 16th Amendment remained the same after the 16th Amendment.

    Do you not find it odd that the the income tax started right after the Private Fed started in 1913???

    Besides income itself is not a tax………the word income is the tool used to measure the amount of tax that is due from the activity or source that is being taxed. Does your wages or labor fall under one of these?

    Even Ron Paul talks about this.

    • Nancy

      As I understand it, the federal reserve is a private business, having nothing to do with the Government. In addition, the IRS is an illegal business to defraud people of their money. Income is privte property and as such is not taxable. The 16th ammendment that they use as proof that we must pay this tax was never ratified and is basically nonexistant. In a search of over 17000 documents claiming to be the original 16th ammendment, none was found to be properly ratified. These documents were gathered from every state in the union.

      From all this I belive that the income tax is illegal and the IRS should be disbanded as the fraud that it is. No one can show you a law that says that we must pay income tax! If there is, I would love to see it.

      • DaveH

        Whether they were created legally or not really doesn’t keep us from getting together and abolishing them.
        I do think eliminating the Federal Reserve wouldn’t necessarily solve our problems as putting the money-making capability in the hands of the Government would still require careful scrutiny on the part of the Citizens. Regardless of who prints the money, it should be backed by some hard commodity, preferrably gold or silver.
        As far as the Income Tax goes, I know of only one party whose platform includes eliminating the Income Tax, The Libertarian Party.

        • Ruth R

          Eliminating the Federal Reserve might not make a difference, but GETTING RID OF OBAMA and most of the current members of CONGRESS would! Impeaching OBAMA instantly and overturning everything he has illegally put into place would correct EVERYTHING that is wrong right now! From illegal aliens who have more “rights” and “services” than ANY citizen, to taxes of ALL kinds – that they are working to impose on us even as we live and breathe – a complete new governmental slate is what is needed. I am wondering when all the polite conversation and preening is going to be DONE WITH, and something really constructive is going to be done WHILE WE CAN STILL DO IT. Interpol is now Obama’s personal policing agency, and anyone in the nation can be arrested and imprisoned and all their goods and property seized WITHOUT DISCLOSURE TO ANYONE but the good ol’ bammy man. Soooo…yeah, taxes and all that are an issue, and a serious one, but what about OUR LIVES and our FREEDOMS just now? Doesn’t it appear that if we lose THOSE, taxes won’t make much difference. If we FIX the problems with restrictive lives and diminishing freedoms, then all the rest can be dealt with in short order. All it takes is taking out the demon-infested trash. I am not being profane, it is the truth, and those who are so infested KNOW themselves to be. They are pure evil, and we need moral and ethical citizens back running things again.

          • http://djsaunders1@juno.com Dorothy Saunders

            OK I agree there shouldn’t be a income tax. and most decent people, if they thought about it would too So what exactly can I do aout it? I am single and living on social security (I would never have supported social security if I had been around when it started. But having had the money taken from me without my consent for more than 50 years I have no choice but to accept whatever the bureaucrats send me or starve and try not to think about how much savings I would have if the government hadn’t decided I wasn’t competent to think for myself.) So at this point is there anything I can do to help repair the system, stop all income taxes? Join an anti-tax group in my neighborhood? Write to my senator? Have my own tea party? Carry a picket sign in front of the White House? Continue to vote for the least of the evils on the ballot . Get real I am serious Is there anything an average citizen of any age or income can actually do to make a difference? We all seem to be preaching to the choir

          • Jackie

            Ruth R.
            You probably didn’t want Obama in the Whitehouse in the first place. Bush gave us all kinds of taxes. His servants were Hispanic and Barbara looks Hispanic to me. What are you talking about? Get rid of Obama and his administration and all will be well. Almost all Obama is doing: taxes, bail outs, etc were overdone by Bush, first. Of course, that was quite fine to taxed by a different color president…He could tax you into the nex genertion and you would have smiled. Yeah, I felt that way too for the Republicans of which I was, until McCain and Palin (she’s can tax us too, Ha? if she were president and it wld be fine) PLease be fair. You’ll live through a Black president….you’ll be just fine. Obama is doing a great job considering what “Bubble Brain Bush” left him to work with and you know it.

          • George E

            Jackie,

            We don’t care what color Obama is. Heck, isn’t he supposed to be half white? What we do care about is that he and his Democrat cohorts are quickly pushing this country towards financial disaster with their big government programs. We may live over Obama, but we won’t live over his policies and programs if we don’t stop them soon. We didn’t like it when Bush did these kinds of things either. That’s one of the reasons why John McCain isn’t President today. At any rate, it shouldn’t be a competition to see which party can field the worst President. We need to set our sights higher than that.

          • DaveH

            Oh boy, another one of those “I used to be Republican” commentors. Why do I find that so hard to believe? Republicans are pretty much polar opposite to Democrats. This must be a tactic taught by the lefties who want their people to disrupt freedom-loving commentors.

          • Joe H.

            Jackie,
            your eyes are brown, DARK BROWN!! Barbara Bush is not hispanic. She is, however, a good lady and is very caring towards any victims of any natural disaster in the states and for you to demean her in any way is down right stupid!!!!

          • Dale

            Jackie
            I keep hearing about what big bad Bush left us. Clintons’ old lady used this a lot during the Presidential campaign. If I recall it was Clinton that started the fair housing Act and Bush that put an end to it. Unfortunately by this time the damage was already done. Is this the bubble that you and everyone else that defends Obama are referring to? ( If I am wrong someone please correct me)

          • Stealth26

            You’re really paranoid. Do you really believe all that crap you’re reading? Interpol….come on. Obama is a centrist.

          • http://www.NRA.com Stephaan

            Stealth26:
            Ha Ha Ha Ha, If Prez Lobatamy is a centrist, then I am a commie, socialist, marxist left wing liberal nut job like you are!!
            Get a clue dude. Your posts will carry more weight if you get a political education, and at least a “little bit of accurate info” before cranking out your drivel on here.

            Her reference to Interpol IS CORRECT. Look it up!

          • http://www.NRA.com Stephaan

            Jackie;
            Quit trying to play the “race card”. Frankly it’s getting kind of old and it stinks, much like you do. Try addressing the issues and Obamas liberal socialist policies. That’s why we didn’t want him in the white house. We couldn’t care less if he was black, white, green, or purple. We didn’t want Hillary either, and McCain wasn’t much better than Obama, or Hillary. McCain was just slightly less liberal, and with a lot more conservative running mate.
            I have found that most people who bring up a persons race, ARE THE RACISTS, so put your race card back in the pocket of your white sheet, and try addressing the REAL ISSUES!

      • http://www.NRA.com Stephaan

        Nancy,
        You are correct, on the IRS and the 16th amendment, but people are imprisoned every day for using the 16 amendment ratification issue as the basis for not paying their taxes.

        Both the legislative, and judicial branches of our government are NOT GOING TO ADMIT that a few thousand people a year who don’t pay their taxes and are imprisoned, are interpreting the 16th amendment argument correctly, because gov. can’t afford to lose the money.

        The only way this would ever work, is if every taxpayer in the U.S. stood together, at the same time, same date, in the same year, and said, I am NOT paying my taxes anymore because the 16th amendment was not ratified. This would work because the gov. does not have enough prison space to house EVERYBODY, but you would NEVER GET EVERYBODY to stand together, too many people would cave in, and the few who did see it through to the end, would still end up in prison like they do now.

  • http://SynergeticsHealth.com Michelle Johnson

    I have believed that the Income Tax is unconstitutional for a number of reasons over the years. I have looked at Irwin Schiff’s untaxing program, and a number of others as well. This system is so entrenched in our psyche’s that fear precludes really making the stand against paying taxes. I know we need to spread the truth, but really….who is going to start this ball rolling. Even asking 1% of people to be willing to go to tax court and ultimately prison, regardless of whether it is ‘true’ or not, or whether it is constitutional or not, is not going to happen. I don’t wish to be a ‘buzz kill’ but unless there is a massive tax revolt that all happens at once and overwhelms their ability to prosecute, this will never change.

    • http://www.fairtaxnation.com tsaray

      Michelle Johnson: Easy answer needs hard work and time! that is about HR25 the Fair Tax Bill, a tax on the final retail price of goods. Get a little education on it and then share it with your 500 best friends (ok,50).
      Many good things will happen. There will be a reduction in government spending and filing costs to the tune of $1.5 trillion will disappear. $350 Billion in the ‘UNDERGROUND ECONOMY’ WILL START PAYING THEIR FAIR SHARE — as will the very rich and super rich when they purchase goods. BIG CORP (the International giants) will lose their stranglehold on congress; currently the average congress person gets $100′s of thousands annually from the lobbyists. The cost of goods will drop dramatically — 25 to 30% and eventually more because the onus of payroll tax withholding at 7 – 8 steps of production and distribution will no longer be embedded in the prices. 185 million working Americans will take home their full paycheck and the economy will soar thereby creating millions of jobs at real wages. The Government will collect more MONEY (FIAT) by 10% to 13% in two years and about 25% within 4 to 5 years and do so at about 90% less cost than with the current debacle. Manufacturing will return to our shores and about $15 Trillion held off-shore to avoid income tax will be repatriated. The USA will become the world’s tax haven — nobody will have to hide their money they won’t even have to report it — just think a return of your right to privacy. It is simple, as I said, but it will take a lot to explain this to the American people because they have been so brain poisoned that they find it hard to understand reason, logic, and common sense. Then of course there is all the disinformation put forth by those who have a vested interest in keeping the status Quo (IRS, lawyers, congress, senate, big finance, etc.) therefore, it will be an uphill battle and require a grassroots level effort which needs you and me to succeed.

    • http://www.americairemember.com angel-wanna-be

      Michelle, your right, unless all of us, every American storms the White House steps in unison, in a tax protest, nothing will be gained__in this instance, there is only saftey in numbers__God Bless

    • J C

      The massive tax revolt will come with hyper inflation or huge unemployment or both. And the way the Resident in the White House is going it might happen sooner than later.

  • Rick N.

    Wow, I’ve heard of conspiracy theorists, but this is lunacy. Bob, you need to take some classes in finance. It appears you don’t understand much about money. Money is neither the paper it’s printed on, nor a bunch of computer symbols. Money is the VALUE of people’s production. You can’t just create production that doesn’t exist to make our (very real) debt go away. And if you think there is someone in Washington who actually has the time and skills to compile “social engineering” information from 300 million people, you have way too much confidence in someone’s abilities. Beware – conspiracy theories can ruin your life if you believe them.

    • J C

      “Money is the value of peoples production”…in a counterfeit currency / slave state yes it is. But Keynes himself said “I work for a government I despise to ends I think criminal”
      Rick we understand “money” better than you think.

      • s c

        JC, if you know about J M Keynes, then you should know what is so wrong about Keynes and Keynesian economics (and everyone who supports it). Obummer is using Kenyesian economics against America, in his bid to give us a twisted combination of fascism, social, communism and whatever else he thinks will destroy this nation.
        If you want a challenge, track Obummer’s mentors back as far as you can. Then, you’ll have an idea as to who his real masters are and what they have in store for us.
        Hint: saul alinsky was a useful idiot who looked for lesser, easily deceived useful idiots. Throw open the Land of Oz curtain, and see for yourself who the real wizard is.

        • JC

          sc, I’ve done some homework in that direction. Not just Obama, but every President since 1913 has used this system to further control, some perhaps unwillingly but they all complied.
          Fiat currency and The Fed along with its collection department, the IRS are the cause of every economic problem we have.

    • Jim

      Rick, you define what money SHOULD be. Regrettably the FED has created this fiat money that they simply print at will. The best description of money and what it should be is in Ayn Rand’s Atlas Shrugged starting on page 380 where Francisco D’Anconia responds to a person’s claim that money is the root of all evil.

      • JC

        You’re right. I had forgotten about that. I was so impressed with that definition of money I actually typed it out and saved it.
        I just checked and the .doc would take up a huge amount of room here so I won’t post it…but it is without a doubt the most accurate and moral definition of money I’ve ever heard.

  • http://survivaloftheslickest.com/ Gene L

    After taking my first course in accounting in 1970, I started to seek ideas for methods that would be politically possible to eliminate the income tax. At this time, it seems to me that only obvious method to eliminate the income tax would be to lobby your US legislators to support H.R. 25 – Fair Tax. There are 66 co-sponsors, so it is not just a new idea without merit.

    • DaveH

      The single most important thing to address is the out-of-control Government spending. How we pay for it is secondary, although for sure the Byzantine Income Tax System is a ridiculous waste of our time and money.

  • knuckleballer

    True Patriots have been advocating the repeal of the Income Tax for decades. But the stupid RINOFANS have fallen for false arguments about how “the government needs” the money. Any politician who does not support a total and immediate repeal of the Income Tax is not worthy of any support beyond the “lesser of two evils” choice, which is, more often than not, a foolish strategy that rarely even delays the advance of big governmenp. Just follow the voting record of Ron Paul, and compare any other Politician’s position to it to see if that politician is any good. If he matches Ron Paul by 70%, he is 70% good; if he matches it by only 30%, he is 30% good (or 70% bad) (i.e. basically very socialist). It is essentially that simple. To get the true Congressional voting scores, go to http://www.jbs.org and view or purchase the “Freedom Index” which rates all 435 Congressmen and 100 Senators.

    • J C

      They take more than they need…spend all they get…and come back for more. It’s completely irresponsible and can only happen with a system of fiat currency.

    • http://survivaloftheslickest.com/ Gene L

      That is a great strategy. ALWAYS refuse to vote for every politican who supports the income tax. The lessor of two evils is always evil so why vote for these politicans who hate America? Of course, your vote, by itself, won’t solve the problem. That is because most people will continue to support the politicans who have destroyed America. But it will contribute to the solution.

    • DaveH

      Great post Knuckleballer. This link takes a person to the Freedom Index for the 111th Congress, votes 1-10:
      http://jbs.org/action/downloads/freedom-campaign-downloads/38-freedomindex111-1

      • George E

        This was very interesting. I transferred the data for the House of Representatives to a spreadsheet and calculated the following results:
        Median Average
        Democrat Representative: 11% 16%
        Republican Representative: 78% 71%

        Interestingly, there was only 1 Democrat that received a score greater than 50%. He was Taylor from Mississippi with a score of 60%.

        Unfortunately, 22% of the Republicans received scores less than 50%.

        I think this kind of makes the point many on this board have been making. While it’s almost a sure bet that any Democrat elected will be liberal, you still have a pretty good chance that the Republican will be as well, although not as often, nor to the same degree.

        • George E

          I’m sorry, but the data didn’t transfer well. The first number in the column is the “median” score, while the second number is the “average” score.

  • cherokee1

    to completely fix the problem we must end the federal reserve who capitalize on our good time’s and bad time’s. They are the one’s who give credit. If you need credit then you cant afford it, and so they have all of America addicted to credit as if it was cocaine, in wich it is nothing more than an artificual economic insemination and a public brain wash.

  • http://www.my-sara.com Jack Nitka

    Before we stop income tax we need to stop fighting the whole world out of fear, fueled by industry. Rich boys could buy their stuff paying with money they have and US soldiers could become usefull citizens who actually work. Billions we spend on military could easily offset if any lack of extra cash from income tax. Same applies to overgrown police. The land of the brave needs to get brave again

    • blackhat

      “…US soldiers could become usefull citizens who actually work”

      Hey Jack…I gotta free one way ticket to Afghanistan for ya…Or, why don’t you sit on top of the world trade center (oops)? Why don’t you just fire the Army and see how long America stays America…I have much harsher words, but that would be inappropriate…

    • Joe H.

      Jack nakita,
      what words blackhat doesn’t have for you I do. If you are reading this in english, thank a vet!!!! You are obviously backward in your thinking process and probably take your little pea brain out and play with it!!!

    • Fed Up Gal in NM

      Jack,

      If there were no military, you would be the first JA to yell and scream your country was providing no protection for you (and yours’….god forbid). You would not know brave if it pulled your sorry a$$ out of a burning pit!

      Unfortunately, our military have to protect sorry a$$’s like yourself so you will at least have the right to say what you want….no matter how illogical!

      As you’re such a shining example of character and integrity…..How about before we pay one more nickel to income tax, we stuff your pea brain along with your motor-boat mouth and ungrateful a$$ into a cardboard box and ship it all off to Afghanistan, Iran, or any similar dictatorship country that you would likely feel more comfortable in.

      I usually try and refrain from direct, derogatory insults….but there’s a time for everything and now is the time for this comment in response, even if I might regret some of it tomorrow.

      Fed Up Gal
      USAF/ANG/E7 (Retired) and damn proud of my service

    • Jennifer

      Thank you to blackhat, Joe H., and Fed Up Gal in NM. You each took the words right out of my mouth.

      • Fed Up Gal in NM

        Thanks for your comments, Jennifer.

        Fed Up Gal

  • John Nevettie

    What is there to abolish? There is NO LAW on the books you have to pay income taxes, in FACT recently multiple JURY’S have found people NOT GUILTY of that crime for they could find NO SUCH LAW (((NEITHER COULD THE I.R.S. SHOW THE JURY’S THE LAW))). How can this be? This video explains it. Click on the red button (watch film now) If you see this (Please click on the movie again to play it. We apologize for the inconvenience) close the window and click (watch film now) again. http://www.freedomtofascism.tv/

    • Vicki

      got any valid links to those jury cases?

  • Eric

    Do a youtube search for “Aaron Russo – Freedom to Facism” and see what the taxes are really all about and how “We the People” have been duped! Search for the Full Length Movie, it is long but it will blow you away too…

    • TIME

      Eric, I Agree with you, a very well made fact filled movie.

    • JC

      Excellent film, a real eye opener.

  • Jim McCarthy

    The FAIR TAX is viable solution to our problem for many reasons. Some of you have touched on them. Bob has done nothing but point out the obvious with no solution; probably a way to introduce something he wants to sell us! Why bother to rate our congressmen? If they don’t support the Fair Tax, they need to be replaced . . . period, end of discussion! GOOOH provides the system to do this. Go to GOOOH.COM. If you can’t see its potential, fine. But at least check it out!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    • Joe H.

      Jim
      I did check out GOOOH and they have one major flaw! If you have a GOOD rep in office, why get rid of him/her? How long would it take to get another good person in that represents your views???

      • DaveH

        I agree Joe, if they represent you to your expectations then they should be rewarded with your vote. Otherwise there is little incentive for them to behave.

  • kenneth bay

    The Money Masters – Part 1 of 2
    Video.google.com

  • kenneth bay

    Did LVI Work in the Twin Towers Before 9/11? *PIC*

  • kenneth bay

    Advanced Explosives Demolition ? 9/11 ?

  • Peter Carminati

    Everyone should get the book, “Hope of the Wicked” by Ted Flynn which describes the Master Plan to Rule the World.
    Contact MaxKol Communications
    P.O. Box 606, Herndon, Virginia 20172
    Voice: (703) 421-1300 or Fax: (703) 421-1133
    ISBN: 0-9668056-3-1
    Basic Subjects:
    Part One: The Master Plan Takes Shape in Stealth
    History
    The Masters, loyal to none
    Hope of the Wicked
    The so-called Wise Men
    Deep Roots in the USA including the CFR
    System has us entrenched
    Create Chaos, then Restore Order inre Freemasonry
    The Keys and the Order
    Part Two: Interlocking Networks
    Joined at the hip
    The NWO Globalists (& you thought you could trust these guys?)
    Follow the money
    Nothing Federal and Nothing Reserve (the fake money system)
    Part Three: Manipulation & Abuse of Technology
    You can run but you can’t hide
    Electronic Bondage – no privacy
    Angels and Weather Modification
    Part Four: The UN Plan to Rule the World & Enslave Mankind
    The Three-legged Stool – kick one out & you’ve collapsed
    Roots of Feminism & the Woman in the Lead
    Earth’s Religion, Environmentalism
    The UN’s far-reaching Tentacles
    Democracy erodes to Dictatorship
    Dictatorship enforced by Martial Law
    A mere “stroke of the pen” is the “law of the land”
    The real story behind FEMA
    World Army (police force) World Taxes, World Order

  • Rick Bowen

    Baron Rothschild said “Give me control of a nations money and I don’t care who writes the laws. The real bad guy’s are the international bankers and the federal reserve. The congress and Senate are just pawn’s in the game. Money rules them all. Including the President. If you doubt it you just don’t understand. The fair tax is the only way to regain our prosperity.

  • JB

    If you wish to educate people about fiat money you are going to have to do better than this sort of article. Explain how the system works in a clear and logical manner.Calling people “eggheads” because they may lack some knowledge you possess is not the way to influence or educate others – it is arrogant and condescending. Everyone may not be as “intelligent” as you present yourself to be. I am not sure why I even bother reading your material – I am sure there are others who know what you think you know and actually care about the people they are trying to educate.

    • s c

      JB, most likely, Bob means educated twits and elected types who specialize in abuse and dumbing-down techniques. As for the common folks, they don’t know much bcause the government has worked long and hard at keeping Americans uninformed and many degrees of ignorant.
      FYI, Obummer is the nation’s #1 ‘egghead.’

  • s c

    If we could get someone in Washington to “explain” why income taxes are needed, they’d probably say it’s a perfect system and it does so much ‘good’ for America. There will be a huge gap between what is said and what is meant, and as always, the answer will have little to do with the question.
    Income tax provides the government with a constant influx of money. It provides elected officials with a convenient excuse to claim that this is how government operates (no money = no government).
    Income tax is an unending excuse to make government bigger. As it grows, our freedoms shrink. Via central banks, it is consolidation of power and ABUSE.
    With no thanks to people like Woodie Wilson, we have what amounts to a domestic enemy disguised as
    a friend. Not unlike the 18th century, we again have taxation without representation. Defenses and explanations will not suffice. We need solutions, and we need them now.

  • Easybucks

    The fix is really very simple. NO TAX is needed to run any city,county,state or the federal government. Check out the YouTube video below.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HRJZoceF0vQ

  • G-Man

    JB, I’ll go you one better – the original article doesn’t provide a SINGLE FACT in support of its hype. Because the argumnent is inane, written by someone with no concept of finance or economics in today’s electronic world. Now, i hate paying taxes just like anyone else, but the fact is, since we stopped bartering my chickens for your pig, money has become symbolic worldwide. But it is still money, or a medium of exchange, even if it is entries on a computer in a bank account.

    This ranting about illegality of taxes is even more ridiculous. What did Capone finally go to prison for, huh? You may not LIKE paying taxes, but you are COMPELLED to by law. Try not paying your taxes. Go ahead. Test the validity of the law. Better yet, cite the cases where juries sent tax evaders home. You can’t.

    Am unsubscribing from this hype and rant. When i first saw this website, i thought it might be an interesting conservative forum. Turns out it’s nothing but hysteria and idiocy. Goodbye.

    • Grinch

      G-Man: your missing the point. Of course its illegal not to pay income taxes. But the LAW itself is Unconstitutional and, hence, illegal. Its absolutely a fact that we were all screwed back in 1913. Politicians don’t want to “do away” with income taxes for three reasons: 1) most are ignorant and not bright people (just sit down with them); 2) the ones that know better wouldn’t dare say anything for fear of losing mainstream credibility and 3) Tax dollars fund their programs they hang their hats on. Pretty simple really. I should know, my Uncle is a Congressmen. Believe he understands and is sickened by the Fed. HE KNOWS they RUN the show. What can be done though? The only thing that can be done is for EVERYONE to come together for a National Day of Tax Protest this April and NOT PAY. They can’t arrest everyone and we would cripple their spending. But, sadly, not everyone is on board.

      • DaveH

        Won’t work Grinch. They would just borrow the money from the Federal Reserve and keep on trucking. Then we would pay taxes the hidden way – Inflation.

    • Fred M

      G-Man,

      It is good to hear the government side of the story once in a while.

    • Tony

      You’re right G-Man people go to jail….but that still does not answer my question below.

      Under Article I section 9 of the Constitution it says “No Capitation, or other direct, Tax shall be laid” so how does the income tax get around this? Before you jump an say the 16th Amendment look at what the Supreme Court had to say about the 16TH Amendment.

      “The Sixteenth Amendment…..does not extend the taxing power to new or excepted subjects….
      Peck & Co. v. Lowe, 247 U.S. 165, at 172 (1918)

      The Supreme Court ruled exactly that in Eisner v. Macomber, 252 U.S. 189 (1920), where the Court stated the following: “The 16th Amendment must be construed in connection with the taxing clauses of the original Constitution and the effect attributed to them before the Amendment was adopted.”

      What this means is the taxing power congress had before the 16th Amendment remained the same after the 16th Amendment.

      Do you not find it odd that the the income tax started right after the Private Fed started in 1913???

      Besides income itself is not a tax………the word income is the tool used to measure the amount of tax that is due from the activity or source that is being taxed. Does your wages or labor fall under one of these?

      Even Ron Paul talks about this

      • J C

        The IRS is the collection branch of The Fed. Neither are actually government agencies.

    • J C

      I see. We are supposed to comply because its the law? It was also the law in Nazi Germany for Jews to wear the Star of David so they could be identified. It was the law of colonial America to submit in every way to a King on another continent. There are those here in America who would subvert our basic rights and have that become law.
      The fact is…the system we have is implemented by people we didn’t elect who are completely unnacounable and who’s goal is the destruction of the USA.
      Calling it “the Law” does not make it right.

  • dms

    I worked with someone that does not have a social security number or does not pay the IRS yearly. The IRS is illegal. we all need to band together and get this abolished. Washington is up there trying to fugure out how they can continue to pad their pockets with our hard earned tax dollars why don’t they give it back to us and we can purchase items like cars and houses and get this economy back to working. they don’t listen to us and we elected them in there. at the polls we need to vote ALL the incumbants out. We started out a free country we need to get back to that for our kids and grandkids sake.

  • Louise

    Come on people do really believe there is no natioal debt? The Republicans have swaking about the debt, as well As Bob saying President Obama is running up the debt.
    Not one republican President has ever wanted to do away with income tax.
    So who is right? There in lays the puzzlement!

  • Elaine

    Everybody needs to read Pete Hendrickson’s book “Cracking the Code – The Fascinating Truth About Taxation in America”. He has researched the entire Tax Code and shows pertinent references and cites many tax cases/rulings that support the case that most of us are not required to pay taxes on our wages. People who have read his book have gotten over $10.5M of their money back from unlawful taxes paid – both from the federal government and states. This includes FICA and Medicare too, which are just another tax. Everybody can start reclaiming what’s rightfully theirs right now by reading this book and taking action. You can buy it at http://www.losthorizons.com. There is a huge amount of information on his website overall.

  • Henry

    If supporters for the fair tax have it their way, everything will go up. Imagine paying for gas with the gas tax with the 23% or 31% fair tax on top of it. With the fair tax, it will effect rent, mortgage, buy a car, utility bills, cable, auto service, license fees, registrations and so on. With products you buy, you have to pay the fair tax as well as the state sales tax in states that have a sale tax. The fair tax is a scheme by the GOP to entice people. It should be called the Fare Tax instead of Fair Tax.

    • http://www.fairtaxnation.com tsaray

      Henry: You just don’t get — plain and simple. i don’t know what your agenda is or even if you have one. The statement that you made is a definite sign of a lack of knowledge about the facts and the works. If you are honest got fairtax.org and fairtaxwarrior.com. then give a detailed explanation of where it is off course.

  • http://YAHOO ALBA10

    Let’s say that that Americans can do this, that if we protest the tax, we will win. How long do you think it will take the states to raise the state tax and all other taxes in the state? Do you think we will have less or more pork barrel projects to support? Will the state government decrease or increase spending with all that extra money coming in? I think everyone knows the answer to these questions.

  • http://www.anti-aginggenius.com Freelancelot

    To Alba: let’s make federal laws that don’t allow states to play out that bleak suggestion. Let’s federally abolish any and all state income tax, or any other tax except property tax (states fundamentally protect property, so a property tax is rational and justified). And when you say, “okay, they will just raise their property taxes through the roof and extort our money that way”, let’s remember that states are competing for residents. They will find it in their best interests to keep their property taxes as low as they can afford.

    But, also…just eliminating taxes is not enough. We must simultaneously eliminate a great many of the programs they are supposed to be funding. Then the politicians don’t have the incentive to raise or originate the taxes. They have no story, no song and dance, to sell the people.

    • bbstacker

      Without going to extremes to cite evidence to counter your argument, where do you think the ultimate defense of private property flows from? Why do you think the “state” has any right or concern to defend private property and therefore is entitled to tax it for that cost of protection? What is your responsibility as a private property owner; are you content to pay someone to defend your property or are you incapable of defending your own property with your God-given rights to maintain that which is yours? The bottom line is that if you cannot defend your property, you will lose it, and the government will surely take it when you’ve given it up to them to “defend” for you. You should educate yourself on your American Heritage.

  • http://www.stanelaine.com Stan B

    Good comments from “WE THE PEOPLE”

    RICK BOWEN,
    You have hit the nail on the head. International Bankers and the Federal Reserve are the primary causes of our problems.

    MIKE CARMINATI,
    Have you read “The Creature from Jekyll Island” by G.Edward Griffin?..and if so, is there any additional material in your recommended “Hope of the Wicked” that G.Edward Griffin may not have covered?

    ERIC,
    The Aaron Russo documentary “Freedom to Fascism” is definately an excellent ‘eye opener’ for anyone confused about taxes. Also check out “FairTax.org and EDWIN VIEIRA to further substantiate the Russo documentary.
    Please remember everyone, you can be right about income taxes and the 16th amendment…and you can be right all the way to jail! Ron Paul will attest to this. Your attorney cannot guarantee he will win against such a powerful crime syndicate!

    TO ANYONE ELSE who is ‘aware’ of the BIG picture,

    We need a strategy to help the American people IDENTIFY who the real enemy is. More importantly, we need to help the people understand what their AGENDA is! Some are aware of it, but many are not.
    In ‘surfing’ the web, I noticed that the same names keep popping up on various websites…and so does the frustration! It is evident from these comments that many have progressed in their research to the point of saying, how can I, or we, effectively get the word out to the American people without being perceived as conspiracy theorists?
    How do we convince the people of the dangers they are facing from a government that has accelerated to the point of becoming their worst enemy? Not everyone is blessed in having the time to do the endless research it takes to uncover all this material. GLENN BECK is in an ideal position to inform the people, but sadly, he is not telling
    “the rest of the story”. There are dozens of organizations that are dedicated (in one way or another) to liberty and bringing our nation back to sanity. What kind of strategy do we need to bring all these entities together to form a strong co-hesive force to combat the corruption that permeates our entire governmental structure?
    Any viable suggestions???

  • eddie47d

    You all say taxes are evil,okay we get it. Some say abolish the income tax,some the IRS,some want a fair tax,some a flat tax,even a trf fund (the t stands for tax). The 16th admendment did authorize the taxing of corporations ,but originally not individuals. Unfortunetley corporations have more loopholes than Switzerland so we individuals get nailed. It’s easy to say we don’t like taxes but no one has said how we pay for essential govt. services. Now that can be widely interpreted! I’m sure there is one retired truck driver on this site or some one who enjoys fresh produce or other goods every day.So who would have paid for the massive interstate system? Are we better off because of it? States could never have taken on such an undertaking. Mr Livingston lost me in some of his reasoning. He kept talking about “invisable” money and Karl Marx and we have no national debt ;yet they can wipe it out with the stroke of a computer key.

  • David

    You want to change the system? How about one very simple change:

    Make the requirement that no elected individual be allowed to serve in any single office for more than two terms. If the President must be limited to that, ALL elected representatives should be limited similarly.

    Of course, this opens the door for the paid administrators to control government from behind the scenes. Those who handle the paperwork, those who act as secretaries, treasurers and overall flunkies to the elected official now have the experience and seniority to influence their new bosses. How do we fix this? Again, simple: they, too, may only serve in their office for the maximum equivalent of two terms, on the other half of the term. If an official’s term is four years, then two years after he has taken office, his staff will be up for renewal or relocation. Those who have been on duty for four years may serve in that same position another four years, but if they’ve been there for eight, they must either be assigned to a completely different office, or retired.

    Our biggest problem isn’t that our taxes are too high or that our representatives are too right- or left-leaning, it’s that they are career politicians, able in many cases to serve in one office for as long as they like–or as long as they can convince their constituents to vote for them. If, on the other hand, they are forced to leave a specific office after a maximum of 8 years, then they must either attempt to attain higher office, or rejoin the day-to-day lifestyle of the regular citizen.

    This alone could eliminate a majority of the self-given pay raises by these politicians; they’re not going to want their successors to make more money than they are. This could eliminate a vast amount of the ‘pork’ we hear of from both sides; it becomes no longer financially feasible to point money into a local project when that official will no longer be in office to gain benefit from his ‘largesse.’ In essence, career politicians are the problem, just as they have been around the world in their monarchies and dictatorships. Stop letting people speak for you; start speaking for yourselves. But for Heaven’s sake, at least know what you’re talking about!

  • Majorityofone

    What we need is morality. Put God back in the classrooms and in the supreme court and find a candidate who values our REPUBLIC’S constitution. Our founding fathers wisdom came from their christian bible. We need to get back to the basics. Then eliminate the IRS. First things first.Matt 6:33

    • http://www.americairemember.com angel-wanna-be

      Majorityofone_I’ve said the same thing all along_When they removed God from the classroom, they moved in metal detectors and the police, if corrupt goes the people, so goes the nation_

      • Joe H.

        Angel,
        AMEN! Very well stated!!! God Bless!

        • Fed Up Gal in NM

          Angel,

          I agree with you and Joe H.

          Fed Up Gal

  • broke and busted

    The IRS put a lien on my house ($250,000.00) and fined me over $40,000.00 because I refused to pay income tax. Three of my friends are in jail right now because of non-payment of income tax. Law or no law – right or no right. You will pay.

    • DaveH

      I agree. As long as their gang is bigger than our gang, it doesn’t do much good to resist.
      We need to set goals that the average person can understand and fight for. And that’s a problem because so many people have been dumbed down in the Propaganda Schools.
      So, the most important thing to do is to get voucher systems set up so parents can determine which schools their children attend. And hopefully those schools will include Economics in their curriculums.

  • Henry

    eddie47d, The 16th amendment says incomes. It doesn’t say corporations or individuals. It just says incomes from whatever source. That means incomes from individuals and corporations.

    • Tony

      The Sixteenth Amendment changed nothing…….

      “The Sixteenth Amendment…..does not extend the taxing power to new or excepted subjects….
      Peck & Co. v. Lowe, 247 U.S. 165, at 172 (1918)

      The Supreme Court ruled exactly that in Eisner v. Macomber, 252 U.S. 189 (1920), where the Court stated the following: “The 16th Amendment must be construed in connection with the taxing clauses of the original Constitution and the effect attributed to them before the Amendment was adopted.”

      What this means is the taxing power congress had before the 16th Amendment remained the same after the 16th Amendment.

  • broke and busted

    Eddie 47d I am that retired truck driver. Don’t talk to me about how the govn. builds roads. The semi trucks alone have paid over 4 times as much to use those roads as the roads cost. I also spent 8 years in hyway construction, I know how much graft and payoffs are a part of road building.

  • Patriot

    The Govt. took over some of the banks, insurance companies, and auto companies. Why don’t they take over the Federal Reserve? Then we could stop paying millions of dollars in interest to the Fed. They are the greatest threat to this country we have ever had. They are a private corp. whose class B stock is owned by the member Federal Banks in this country. However, the class A stock is owned by several International banks in Europe. They are the control behind the scene.

    • DaveH

      Watch out what you wish for as it might come true.
      Argentina has massive inflation from about 1975 to 1990, hitting a peak of 5000% in 1989, because Government always looks after their gang members first, and if that means printing excess money to pay them, they do.

  • BonnieMW

    You are so correct. I will support anyone who will helps
    abolish federal income tax and the Federal Reserve. You are so correct about this being a control issue. My business is being audited by the IRS and a couple of quotes by the IRS agent. “It doesn’t matter what you attorney says, I am above the courts.” He also said, “I can make you owe so much taxes that you will never get out of bankruptcy.” These people are total control freaks. They are not normal people. The tax laws are set up to be confusing and there is so much of the area that is grey. It gives the auditors the ability to be discriminatory. If you do not bow to them thier heads
    start spinning and you think it is time to call in a priest.

  • Loren

    Bob, Bob, Bob, you have no idea what you are talking about. While it is sooo simple for you to understand how this all works think of this. Are you willing to tell all America that to pull this off they would have to put their lives on the line when the globalists put the attack on this country? How about it Bob, are you ready to stand in front and face the real enemy that will kill you, your family, and everyone who wants to do this? Bob you don’t know what this world is made of. I do, and I can tell you that the bubble you live in is going to get popped. Don’t encourage Americans to think about things they have no understanding of. They just get excited and stirred up. They don’t know what is going to turn this country around or they would have started in the 1960′s for god’s sake. Bob if you want to do some good just let America continue in the dream state that it’s been in for the last 70 plus years. It will be less painful then for 300,000,000 people to wake up and learn the truth about the fraud their lives have been. Why waste your time telling America about the fact that our government is controlled by The Bank of International Settlements in Switzerland and that our congress is a fraud. Why tell them that all the joblessness and inflation and homelessness is because money can be made to do anything , up or down when it is FIAT, fake, phony. Hey America, Get ready to take a big hit for being stupid and letting your government get out of control. You can think what you want about me but you better see clearly who your REAL enemy is because your being attacked and you don’t even know it.

  • Nemo

    Greetings to all:

    First, as others have said, this article is not totally based on reality as finances go in this or any other country because a debt is a debt and someone has to pay it. And, no, we can not continue to just print funny money to pay foreign countries with because then they will use that funny money to buy goods from the USA and our citizens will have to produce goods in return for moneys that were NOT earned and that does NOT represent any services provided to us in return. That becomes our debt. That does not work. Does anyone understand the true intent of the definition of Racketeering?

    With regard to the illegitimacy of taxes, I once read a story about a couple of IRS agents who became aware that there were no legitimate, ratified laws mandating the payment of income taxes and, as a result, issued a letter to the heads of the IRS requiring that the IRS provide legal proof, copies of the laws, that legally requires income taxes be paid. As the story goes, the IRS could not, or did not, provide the requested proof. The agents, then, ceased paying there income taxes and were never pursued or prosecuted. Don’t know where to find that article now.

    Now, that was a long time ago that this was to have taken place and it was not as long ago, but a long time ago, that I read that article, but it does cause one to pause and wonder what would happen if you or I were to issue just such a letter to the IRS stating that we would cease filing of income taxes and payment unless and until the IRS provided, showed absolute, irrefutable ratified proof that federal income taxes is a legitimate debt owed by the citizens of this country and I would think it should be done through one’s attorney so that it is taken seriously, then, if no proof was provided by the IRS, could we then legally cease our income tax filings to the IRS? What would happen?

    Does anyone have any documentation along these lines? Any copies of such an article or paper work on file regarding these IRS agents or of a similar nature. Is there any hope that such a procedure would constitute a legal separation of the citizenry from the death grips of the IRS, successfully?

    Think about it, research it. Talk to the oldest attorneys you can find. The young ones are already brainwashed, right? And, the old retired one’s careers and lives aren’t going to be as vulnerable to threats from the IRS/Feds, etc.

    Best wishes and:

    God Bless.

  • Loren

    Nemo are you for real? This is just what I’m talking about. Americans DON’T know what is going on when it comes to this issue. Nemo, most of the people you are thinking about are, in fact, in jail. Few are not, very few. America, you would be wise to not think about this any more because I’m telling you you don’t understand what is really happening in this country. For over 30 years I have been talking about this and no one cared at all that I was trying to save the nation from what is happening right now. As a matter of fact when I was talking once to some men about this IRS stuff I was called a Fascist. Can you believe that? Here I am trying to give Americans their property back to them and they call me a Fascist. That is level of intelligence there is in this country.

    • Nemo

      Loren:

      I understand, more than you know.

      Yes, many people have ended up fined, in jail, loosing something or everything, even having there families broken up from divorce, by the ways they have handled it.

      But, maybe there is a better way by using the Law rightly and intelligently and with enough backing and collective support from the American people to result in successfully getting this country back on track, down the line. And, for example, if the American people truly came together and understood the law, they could at least, when called to jury duty, rule in favor of the accused every time as regards having failed to pay their taxes and that just might be one way to fight these problem this country is in. So, you want the American people to be left in the dark, ignorant about what is going on in this country? Bad idea, Loren.

      This was once a great country, because the American people were a determined people who were united as one, of one accord and determined to pay whatever price was required to keep the freedoms their ancestors came to this country to find and enjoy. I am hopeful that the American people can once again come together to fight a common foe with that same determination and that kind of determination scares the crap out of our enemies. But,now, it sounds like you just want them to lay down, go to sleep and be stupid on purpose and give up.

      NOT ME!

      You are missing the point. If the “laws” requiring payment of income taxes are, as some say, not legal, not ratified, then what is the law that remains is the truth. Isn’t it?

      The question was, what can we do legally. If there is no law requiring income tax payment, then how can we use the truth of the law to get the truth functionally working for us? Because, the alternative, the alternative, Loren, is probably going to end up in something along the lines of riots, starvation, civil war, anarchy, the total collapse of our country, its economy, so, again is there any hope of getting the truth of the Law brought up to the surface, recognized and respected and upheld? And, yes, we have too many bad reps and Senators in office and that is keeping things from getting fixed.

      And, yes, that is going to take a massive effort by the American people and hopefully through the law because without it there is no real law, just organized criminals running our country into the ground. Yes, I know about the banksters, the Rothchilds(sp) and a lot more I can’t even put in here. I know it because I have been watching and studying this for around 40 years.

      So, what do you really want? Think carefully about this, because whatever happens to the rest of us, happens to you, or do you have some secret estate in some foreign country you are going to go hide in?

      Do we research until we find a way to fix this or just give up and let the thugs of the world have their way with us.

      Read the history of our founding fathers, those who declared our independence from England and fought for our freedom and see what they suffered by the time it was over. No, this is not going to be fixed without suffering, a lot of suffering and a lot of casualties.

      I am asking questions. What are you doing? Do you really have answers or just fear driven warnings that seem to say ‘there is no hope so don’t try’.

      I will never give up and I hope the rest of the American people take the same position.

      That is all I have to say.

      • Roy A

        Thanks Nemo

  • blackhat

    Look, I don’t know where you guys come up with this stuff about “beating the system” or whatever. Let me make it clear that I do not like paying taxes. However, our tax laws in the US are under a voluntary system. You may pay taxes if you wish. Ahhh…but, here’s the rub. In order to get a job we must sign a W4 form. A “voluntary” form to be sure, but you are agreeing to pay taxes (all taxes!) by signing. However, if you don’t sign you cannot work. Read the fine print on your employment applications that refer to the IRS tax laws and do the research yourself. It says voluntary everywhere. But, how voluntary is it? Not very.

  • Henry

    If taxes are so evil why did Jesus Christ said: Give unto Ceasar what belongs to him and to God what belongs to Him? He even took a tax collector as one of His Disciples.

    • blackhat

      I do not believe that many people would say that taxes are evil. But, what is done with our taxes and the way they are collected is what bothers me and many others. We almost all would agree that schools, roads, police, fire, national defence, etc. are necessary and a good thing. But, what else are the trillions being spent on that does not meet the constitutional criteria?

      • George E

        Most of it, I’d bet.

      • J C

        Obviously there is a need to support infrastructure. Income tax and politicians are simply not the way. User fees and accountants who are
        subject to audits and review would probably work a little more honestly.

    • Tony

      Is that why John did most of his writing from prison? Or was it because he refuse to obey corrupt government?

  • Mark

    So let me get this straight. You propose abolishing the Federal income tax in order to establish “sound and honest” Socialized Medicine and Social Security?

    What is the point of replacing one Marxist scheme with two more Marxist schemes?

    All three of these transfer of wealth schemes are directly from the pages of Karl Marx’s Manifesto.

    1)A “big” government is required for any socialist scheme to function.

    2)A “sound and honest big government” is an oxymoron.

  • Loren

    Hey Henry your reply shows just how little you know about taxes or Jesus. The only reason that we have to give in to income tax is because we are being forced to do so. The reason we are forced to do so is because like you say we have to give to Caesar what is Caesars. But that is because the property which belongs to us was stolen from us by our Federal Government and we have not been able to get it back. Trust me when I say Jesus was a tax protester and did not want to have anything to do with Rome. So, the Federal government is a co- conspirator with the Federal Bank and the IRS,as it’s enforcer, to keep all of us in debt as SLAVES. Think about it, Henry, is our lives benefiting from anything that is happening here in this country. As a nation we are being brought to the slaughter and the more your government plays ball with the Federal Bank the more destruction there will be in this country. Your congressmen know this, your President knows this but you don’t know this.

  • Timothy

    There is no law that “compells” us to pay taxes. There have been offers of up to 50,000 dollars to show it and no one has collected. Our politicians waste more money and steal more money than any amount of good it does. Eliminating the income tax and abolishing the fed and irs are what needs to be done. Then our people would have money to spend which would do more for the economy thatn anything else.

    • Vicki

      seems like those folk in jail could provide evidence that there is a law :)

    • J C

      vicki, that they are in jail is more a sign of a gangster police state than it is evidence of any moral law.

      • Fed Up Gal in NM

        JC,

        Hmmmmm. Never looked at it this way…..great point!

        Fed Up Gal

  • AZ J

    I agree with abolishing income taxes on the immorality of the tax, but the argument used here that “Modern government money is electronic. It is not your taxes” and “Federal Government has no debt” is wrong. I’m not even going to read further.

    • JC

      AZ J…They’re not “your” taxes. They are fees levied upon the working class to control them, and to enrich the corporate and political elite.

  • Henry

    Loren, I know about about taxes than you ever seen in your life. There is nothing in the Bible that said He was a tax protester. Why did He take a tax collector as His Disciple? Matthew was a tax collector hired by Rome to collect taxes what is called a publican. Jesus could have refused him but He took him. You should read the Bible. Don’t you tell me about taxes. I been into taxes longer than you ever been into.

    • Tea Bagger Tim

      Henry,

      The ultimate point was that it all belonged to God. What has Ceasar now and what has God?

      As for the tax collector. Matthew, did not request to be a follower. Jesus did not examine Matthew and accept him, he “called” him. He was not called so that he could continue what he was doing. Matthew followed and was never the same. It was not important who Matthew was, (Jesus already knew that), what was important was who Jesus was? All of the men that Jesus called then, have called since or will ever call were sinners, but Jesus changes everything.

      • Fed Up Gal in NM

        TB Tim,

        Exxxxxxxxxxxxcelllllllllent!

        Fed Up Gal

      • http://www.americairemember.com angel-wanna-be

        So true_if we are called by God, each us must pick up our own cross and follow him!

    • Loren

      Henry try proofreading your comments, you seem excited by what I say and you’re making mistakes in spelling. Henry, as you are so well educated on the subject of taxes, I would like to know what , if anything, you can share with the rest of us about the International Bank of Settlements and its relationship to the Federal Bank and the Federal Government as it applies to the current debt that Americans are being force to endure? Or perhaps you would like to enlighten us on how Americans have been forced to endure involuntary servitude for the past 77 years against their free choice. I’m sure you have much to tell us and this is the time and place Henry.

    • loren

      No Henry, you don’t

  • http://www.riseupforamerica.com Carl Swensson

    If you would all get involved and help me/us get this kind of person elected, these problems would vanish…
    It’s going to take effort and money and the type of “Tea Party” support that got rid of the super majority in the Senate.
    Help me help us all,
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ynwubkeXqK8&feature=channel Part 1

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c9D3mUN0NUo&feature=channel Part2

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YcArt5OnWl4&feature=channel Part3

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwmTzw3enow&feature=channel Part 4

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_FVKgPT9ulY&feature=channel Part 5
    Now is the time for all you good men and women to step forward and contribute to our future.
    Freedom is NOT free!

  • DaveH

    Eric Massa? Have you heard? He was accused of Sexually Harrassing a male staffer. Since when have Liberals cared about their own sexually harrassing anybody? I guess it depends on what the meaning of is is. Eric has a different story and he is going to tell it on the Glenn Beck show tomorrow. A must see!

    http://www.nydailynews.com/news/politics/2010/03/08/2010-03-08_departing_rep_eric_massa_goes_down_swinging__at_his_fellow_democrats.html

    • DaveH
    • DaveH

      By the way, I was very disapointed with Massa’s interview on Glenn
      Beck. Nothing much but politician speak.

      • usmadgirl

        DaveH,

        I too was very disappointed. Glenn didn’t “waste my time”. Eric Messa did! I think he’s back peddling! After what he said about Rahm Emanuel yesterday & then not exposing him & all the other thugs when he had the chance, was confusing, to say the least. He kept saying “anybody could say anything about him”, but Glenn kept asking him if he had more information, but he wouldn’t be specific about anything! It was more of the same old spin! All these people make me nauseous!

        • http://www.americairemember.com angel-wanna-be

          Dave H_ I think massa had plenty more to say on the Beck interview regarding the corruption of the Chicago Thuggery Obama Admin__personally I think he knew his life wouldn’t be worth a plug nickle irregardless if he has cancer or not_if he revealed what was said, done and continues to go on behind the doors of Washington, why else would their be all these closed door deals and secret meetings__ and now Pelosi says we have to wait for the secret in the health care reform to be revealed__It’s all a giant Crap Shoot, we’ve been purposely blindfolded, lied too and will be forced to swallow whatever this admin wants to shove down our throats.

  • AZ J

    The idea that the government can just create electronic money to pay its bill so we don’t need taxes is saying that it is acceptable for the the government to endlessly inflate the currency or create endless debts and pay them off with that money. That’s wrong. I was hoping to find here an article I could hand out to “big government with a capital R” Republicans on tax day to introduce them to the proper idea of abolishing income tax but this isn’t it.

    • JC

      Ok, where do you think the new currency comes from?

  • Mack McCaskill

    For 20 years I have screamed from the top of my lungs that there is no such thing as “income tax”. The progressive system that we have today was ruled unconstitutional in 1895. But if you “volunteer” that’s different. I have sent request to President Clinton, Janet Reno, my governor and attorney general for a copy of the law that requires the individual to file and be liable for the purported tax. I recieved no response. The communication that I had with agents of agencies that collect the tax have resulted only in further threats of liens and jail time. What is wrong in answering a question from a concerned citizen? If you have authority then it should be simple to produce proof of that authority. Especially when you have a gaggle of lawyers at your disposal.

    • Loren

      Hey Mac the answer is in your own comment. It’s by force not choice. We can all be right and still go to jail. Irwin Schiff was right and he is in jail until 2016. He’ll be 88 when he gets out. What is your point?

  • Grover Syck

    Not only do I NOT agree the income tax should be abolished, the rates for higher earners should be raised, substantially.

    Sales tax fall disproportionately on the lower income people.

    A properly designed PROGRESSIVE income tax is the most fair. If you benefit the most from the system, you should pay the most to support it.

    • Loren

      Grover you are the reason the world is in the depressed state that it is in. So how do you define benefit? So if I work the hardest to provide the best living for my family, I should pay the most? You are a threat to free people everywhere on this planet. The people that think like you do, want to protect everything on this planet except the people that live on the planet. Hey everyone this guy wants to turn the USA into Iran. Grover, we do not need an income tax we need our property returned to us. You want Slavery to continue to be the norm.

      • Joe H.

        Loren,
        I think after reading grovers posts he misspelled his name by two letters. Grover IS syck!!!!

    • http://www.fairtaxnation.com tsaray

      Grover: You do not have a clue! The Fair Tax completely untaxes the por and the working poor. If you want to be honest (I have my doubts that you do) go to fairtax.org and do the research. you must have gone to college and listened to “Economics’. the author of that smokescreen, Paul Samuelson, was a disciple of lord Maynard Kenyes — government intervention in the economy. Please do the reading before making irrational statements.

    • JC

      How about not having the poor be governmental dependants?
      Or is it that you prefer the same sick cycle to continue?
      And who will support “the poor” when those who have earned wealth are taxed out of existence?
      What then, population control?

    • Fed Up Gal in NM

      Grover,

      For your convenience, here’s the link tsaray was talking about. This way… you won’t have to do anthing, except click on the link (or copy/paste the link to your browser) and open. The video (with examples of how such a tax system would work) is very interesting and makes considerable more sense than the current taxation in place.

      Fed Up Gal

    • Sherry

      I’m not educated in the tax system, but I think Grover is somewhat correct in his post.

      The poor do suffer from states sales taxes, and would suffer even more under a fed sales tax. I’m not talking about welfare people because their needs are well paid for by the ignorant liberal government now, but the poor people, mostly elderly people, who have worked all their lives, paid taxes and have been taxed and screwed to death by the gov. already. They ask for no welfare, or handouts, but survive on modest savings, and can barely afford to buy food to eat. Sometimes they have to choose between buying food, buying medicine, or paying for heat in the winter. I see these people in the grocery store counting out the exact money they need before they go to the checkout stand to be sure they have enough, and many times I see them taking things out of their basket and putting them back on the shelves because they don’t have enough money. These are poor elderly people I’m talking about. How is a sales tax, or a fair tax, or a value added tax, or a flat tax, or any other kind of god damn $#%%# tax going to do anything but hurt them?

      • Fed Up Gal in NM

        Sherry,

        I’m not sure, but I didn’t get the feeling Grover’s comment was targeted to help the elderly.

        Personally, I still think it’s more reasonable and fair for everyone to pay the same percentage (less income equals less tax…..more income equals more tax). We have to start somewhere, and having everyone pay the same percentage of their income is at least more fair than having some pay a greater or lesser percentage, as is now going on. If such a plan were in place from the beginning, then at least it would be equitable across the board.

        With all due respect to the scenario you described….it will not be easy, but people do have to take some responsibility to plan for their future; if they do this early on in life, their retirement years will likely be more comfortable than if they don’t plan. At some point people must begin to understand that we just cannot keep paying for every single need….sadly even needs may have to be prioritized, since wants are sometimes masked as needs.

        To respond to your question about how a fair, flat, or value added tax can help…check out this link (for fair tax): http://www.fairtax.org to see if it sounds reasonable to you.

        Lastly, you might be better off praying to God for an improvement in the situation….than cursing him.

        Fed Up Gal

        • Sherry

          Fed Up Gal; Grover IS right about a sales tax falling disproportionately on the poor. This is what I was addressing was the “poor” lady.

          Grover Syck says:
          March 8, 2010 at 5:47 pm

          Sales tax fall disproportionately on the lower income people.
          ************************************************************************
          This lady is poor, and could not afford a sales tax. After I checked my groceries out and was loading them in my car, I saw her pushing her cart up the street, so I went over and loaded her into my car and took her to her home. I helped her in with her groceries, and got a clear sense that she is “poor”. She does not “waste” money on anything, like you alluded to. She has nothing fancy in her 3 room apartment. She does not have anything except things needed for her to survive day to day. She does not have any luxuries at all. She does not even have a tv. The only “luxury” that I could see was a telephone, which is more of a safety device for 911 ambulance since she is 78 years old.
          This lady is not a bum, that has been lazy all her life, and from what I could see, never was one. She has “one” chair, and “one” small table with a lamp on it in her main room. She has “one” picture in her main room of her and 3 other women (circa WWII era) when she was in the Civillian Air Observer Corp.(not sure of exact words on banner in photo, but it was something like that) She has served this country in her younger years, and for some reason that I am not aware of, has fallen on hard times. (most likely the governments fault)
          She is just one example of who Grover was talking about, and there are millions more like her in this country. She probably doesn’t pay any income taxes now, as she can’t possibly work at her age, or have any taxable income, but IF the government passes a SALES TAX, OR VALUE ADDED TAX, SHE WILL HAVE TO PAY!! She will not be able to afford this.
          As for cursing God? I wasn’t. I was damning this worthless government for trying to, and quite successfully, screwing people. I can afford for them to screw me, & maybe you can afford for them to screw you too, but there are millions of poor people like her in the U.S. that just can’t afford it!

          • Fed Up Gal in NM

            Sherry,

            I understood your message the first time; just not sure you understood mine.

            Fed Up Gal

          • Sherry

            All I understood from your message was that you felt it didn’t matter, she deserved to pay a federal sales tax because you think she didn’t prepare for her retirement.

          • Judy

            Sherry, You’re wasting your breath on some of these people!
            Osama and his ilk have no use for the elderly. If doesn’t matter whether they have served this country proudly when they were needed or not. Anyone over 60 is of no use to the liberal left. If Osama and his minions can’t kill them with RATIONED HEALTH CARE, then they will starve them to death with a Federal sales tax.
            As you have already surmised, the elderly only need 4 things. A place to live, food, heat in the winter, and medical care. By having to pay a fed sales tax, they won’t be able to afford all 4 of these things anymore. My guess is that most elderly will forgo paying the heat bill, and will freeze to death in the winter.
            What the ignorant few don’t realize is that EVERYONE will fall into this group eventually. The fastest growing group in America is the elderly. Everybody is getting older, and their turn at being expendable is right around the corner.

          • Fed Up Gal in NM

            Sherry,

            Respectfully, I can’t tell by your response, if you’ve actually researched the fair tax plan or not. When I researched it…there seems to be some safeguards built in for low-income folks (which I believe will include the elderly on fixed incomes, of which my mother and aunt are). Based on your most recent post…it appears the lady you referenced would fit in that category.

            However, I do not agree that out of the “millions” you referenced as being in dire circumstances….that the majority have no culpability in their situation. As I’ve said before there are some who are truly in need, and through no fault of their own….but I just don’t buy it for the majority.

            I hope you are not making the assumption that I (and others posting here) do not help folks in need…as that would be a grave mistake in judgement if so.

            ====================================================================
            And…to Judy’s comment: If you have followed my posts, you would realize I am far from being a “liberal”…and further from being an Obama supporter. I am also retired military (not drawing retirement yet) and will be on a fixed income in the next few years.

            Personally, I believe in limited taxation and limited government; that’s why I’m leaning toward the fair tax plan or another plan that would limit taxes to luxury items…you know things we may want, but don’t have to have, to survive and thrive, and not tax things like food, utilities, non-designer clothing…I’m sure I’ve forgotten something here, but hopefully you get the point. Then we would be responsible to budget for the cost (including tax) for those “want” items if we choose to purchase them. I could be wrong, but so far that’s what my understanding of how the fair tax plan works. I’ve included the link here, so you and Sherry can review it and decide for yourselves.

            Fed Up Gal

          • Fed Up Gal in NM

            Ooooops! I did it again…sorry. Here’s the fair tax link now:

            http://www.fairtax.org

            Fed Up Gal

  • http://www.DontMaxTax.ME Brian Spaulding

    No solution is simple. Nevertheless,check our my web site for some possible solutions which could work after some tweaking. Several fixes to our “goobermint” have to occur in order to improve its efficiency. None will probably ever be done concurrently (unfortunately). We need people with big kahunas to break business as usual. There are only about eight people in Congress that even know anything about business and there are many pretenders. They obviously have to go. After the IRS and the Tax Code are eliminated….the former almost entirely; the latter forever….in the process also eliminate several other taxes, for starters the property tax; the excise tax; the capital gains tax; the death tax, and several others), substitute a national consumption tax, a state consumption tax, and a municipal consumption tax. Around 10%; 5%; and 10%, respectively…to NEVER be any greater. See my web site for more discussion and let’s do something besides talk about fixing this mess.

  • http://www.DontMaxTax.ME Brian Spaulding

    DontMaxTax.ME By the way, there is absolutely NOTHING F-A-I-R about a progressive income tax (or anything else progressive). Fair is when EVERYONE with an income pays the SAME rate. A progressive income tax on successful people is obviously counter-productive which is why the Tax Code has grown to so many pages, trying to put fingers in the loop hole dike. There isn’t much need for more than 100 ages written in plain English. (Right! No Spanish!) Sales taxes DO NOT FALL DISPROPORTIONATELY ON LOWER INCOME PEOPLE! That’s almost pure hogwash. Sales taxes are a way for everyone to budget, including the entities which need to the most, government agencies! Obviously, do NOT sales tax the goods necessary to survival and used goods already taxed once. Again, check out my web site and do some serious thinking. Then also consider revamping the pay system for our representatives at every level, especially the federal level. Bring in e-Voting as soon as possible and term limits. Change health insurance the way I’ve outlined on my web site. It ain’t rocket science! Change the legislation system so that limits are imposed on the number of bills introduced by each member. Demand prioritizing also include the people back home being involved in more efficiently letting their representatives what’s more important to them in THEIR opinion. I’m not all that interested in the representatives opinion. They have less experience than the collective body of the people they’re supposed to be representing. Don’t get me started…..Talk is cheap. Demand action. Your repreentatives are supposed to be “working” for you.

  • Henry

    Loren, I don’t have to tell you anything. You said Jesus was a tax protester. Nothing in the Bible states it. The Pharisee ask Jesus a question, is it lawful to pay taxes to Ceasar. Jesus ask for a coin and He said who’s inscription is on the coin? The Pharisee said, Ceasar’s. Jesus said: Give unto Ceasar what belongs to him and to God what belongs to Him. Now you people are questioning Jesus’s answer. I said a simple Bible verse and you are questioning it. Amazing. Loren, how educated are you when it comes to taxes? Nobody is. We know about taxes but do we really know about them. How many accountants and tax lawyers know about them? How many in people in government know about them? Rep. Rangel was chairman of a committee that handles taxes and he cheated on his own taxes. Well, he knew how to cheat.

    • loren

      FYI Henry Jesus was a tax protester. Get over it. AS to the coin issue get it through your head, the money before 1933 belonged to the people of the USA as their own property. NOT THE GOVERNMENT’S or the federal bank. Understand. So your bible lesson isn’t relevant here for our discussion. The government, stole this money from you Henry. It was your money Henry. Is this too hard for you to understand? The money did not belong to the government Henry. So your Bible argument is WRONG, WRONG, WRONG, HENRY. Get over it.

      • loren

        Oh, by the way Jesus was a tax protester.

    • loren

      You still don’t know anything about what you are talking about.

  • stephen russell

    I say Time for the Flat Tax or Tierd Flat Tax tied to Income IE pay X% share of Income or NO Income Tax & go by Sales Tax alone.
    Boost business & jobs.
    & dump Charles Rangel please, mans outdated & past his Prime

  • Dick Gazinia

    Horse pucky! Since the beginning of organized societies taxes have been the price of civilization. All you “good Christians” are worried about sharing a piece of your pie.

    • J C

      Dick…the original Americans revolted over tax tyranny. Yet now you would have us all be put back under the same system because you say we are selfish? I’ll bet King George over in England might have said the same.

    • DaveH

      It never ceases to amaze me that Liberals will call people greedy or selfish for wanting to keep their own hard-earned money. But those same Liberals don’t seem to think anything is wrong with their greedy or selfish desires to take somebody else’s money for themselves.

      • J C

        And the way they do it is straight up theft.
        Not exactly a “morally sound” group are they?

        • DaveH

          Not even close.

    • usmadgirl

      Dick Gazinia,

      Nobody said not to pay ANY tax. We just want to abolish the Unconstitutional IRS! What’s wrong with a Flat Tax?

      We pay tax on everything we purchase, our property, tax on all our phone, cable, dish, utility services, tax on our income, tax on EVERYTHING. Then they have the nerve to penalize me because I’m self employed.

      I don’t mind sharing a PIECE of my pie, I just don’t like having to give away the whole pie that I baked!

  • http://www.fairtaxnation.com tsaray

    Dick Gazinia: Dumb and Dumber. the love of money, not money itself, is the root of all evil (Greed, corruption, and control). Taxes are not evil but is the form of taxes that are evil when they are a theft system of labor and stored value/property. The Founders absolutely forbade a direct tax (except in an emergency and then by proportion; e.g. – everyone pays the same) because they came from places where their livelihood was mulcted by the Lord, the Barron, and the King and we were not to replicate that system of serfdom here. You speak Horse Pucky when you talk out of your hat without knowledge of about which you speak!!!

  • Julia

    There is only one means available to the federal government and that is through APPORTIONMENT. That is to say, the Feds would invoice each Governor or State legislature for the proportionate required amount, based on the number of congressional Representatives, which is why we have a census every ten years. The States’ governments would use whatever means they individually would choose, and remit the invoiced amount to the federal government. Art I, Section 2, Clause 3 and Section 9, Clause 4.

    FAIR Tax, Flat Tax, VAT…all are non-constitutional, unless we go through the [scarey!!!] an amendment process outlined in Art. V Section, and make one of them so.

    Rather simple, ya think?

    • James

      Julia, Well said, back when Congress was limied to those two forms of taxation, the federal government was small and insignificant. But the 16th Amendment of 1913 allowed direct taxation without apportioning it according to the number of people. To go back to how it was, we would have to repeal the 16th Amendment.

  • Senior Cesar

    The Livingston article is saying cinservative’s ideas that are not workable. It says, “Abolishing income tax would restore prosperity”,Tax is government control over citizens”, “The federal government can print money”. The federal gov. uses electronic money”. “Prosperity can return and the fix is simple, Pay no income tax”.
    Well, the post of “broke and busted” below communicates the way that things really are and there is no hope for change.
    broke and busted says:
    March 8, 2010 at 12:53 pm
    The IRS put a lien on my house ($250,000.00) and fined me over $40,000.00 because I refused to pay income tax. Three of my friends are in jail right now because of non-payment of income tax. Law or no law – right or no right. You will pay.

    Bob Livingston article is not workable, for it is sort of a hypothesis.

  • Dennis Faulkner

    Time to abolish the IRS – it is so cumbersome, inefficient, and often heartless! It is just common sense that this waste of money needs to go – with just a common sense flat taxation rate, how much further would our tax dollars go?

    • J C

      It’s clinically psychotic by definition.

    • DaveH

      Can we say “Arf, Arf” as we jump through their tax hoops?

  • Bambi

    What would happen if we (The People) decided to NOT pay taxes for one year?

    • DaveH

      The Government would just borrow it from the Federal Reserve, which would create more money, and then we would pay taxes the hidden way through Inflation.

  • James

    The 16th Amendment reads: “The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes on incomes, from whatever source derived, without apportionment among the several States, and without regard to any census or enumeration.” Back then, ‘income’ did not include the wages and salaries of ordinary unprivileged occupations. If one had an ‘income’ it was understood that s/he didn’t have to work for a living. The congressional record leading to that amendment clearly stated its purpose was ‘to tax the rich’. Since then the IRS has expanded on the term ‘income’ to include anything and everything that comes in, and the Supreme Court has upheld that, mostly by refusing to hear cases which so-argue. The 16th Amendment should be repealed by the people or the States.

    • DaveH

      It’s common for Government to use the Class Envy tactic to get their foot in the door, and then, by necessity, later on expand the program to include ordinary people. Of course, as pointed out earlier, we all pay anyway through the increased costs of our goods and services.
      The bottom line is do we want the Government Spending our money wastefully, or do we want a Free People to make their own decisions about how to best spend their own money?

    • loren

      James that should give you a clue as to the mess we are in. Before that was passed it would have been treason and the punishment was death. Get it. So let what you are saying sink in and start asking yourself some hard questions about the reality of the world you live in and see if you realize that you are a SLAVE and in worse bondage then the slaves before the war between the states.

      • James

        Loren, I probably knew that before you were born. I’m a Purple-Heart Korean War veteran, a war that Congress didn’t even declare.

  • Henry

    James, the only way the 16th amendment can be repealed is that Congress vote on the Constitutional amendment to repeal and it has to be ratified by 3/4 of the States. That’s how it is done.

    • James

      Henry, Article V, in pertinent part, reads: “by the Legislatures of three fourths of the several States, or by Conventions in three fourths thereof.” People can do it, if that method “be proposed by the Congress.”

  • DaveH

    Some entertainment for you all. This is so cool. It shows what kids are capable of when they’re not glued to their TVs or Game Consoles:
    http://www.wimp.com/kidscan/

  • Henry

    Also James, before they can repeal, there must be a taxing system in place to take over the present system. I hope it isn’t the Fair Tax. You should read Fair Tax Fraud by Lawrence Vance. It is in the internet.

    • DaveH

      Here’s the link:
      http://mises.org/daily/1814

      • DaveH

        This is so true, Henry, from the article:
        “Can Congress be relied on to pass a constitutional amendment that repeals the 16th amendment after a national sales tax has already been enacted?”

      • Jo

        Wow! Just read the article. Thanks for the link. I was all for Fair Tax and was planning to go to the protest on 4/15/2010 but I guess I need to do more homework – now I am more confused than ever.

        Questions:
        How do other states that do not pay the income tax handle this? Do they get limited services? Can anyone explain how that works?
        Rather than tackling the problem on the Fed level would it be more effective to work on State level and get more states to defect from the income tax system?
        If the 16th Amendment was never ratified and therefore not legally in place, why then does it have to be abolished – it basically doesn’t exist.

        • J C

          “Income Tax” desn’t go to services….not one dime.
          It goes to pay the “interest” on the national debt.
          Which is created by our government borrowing imaginary money.

    • George E

      Very interesting article, Henry. Sounds like the Fair Tax has problems with the way it is written and proposed to be implemented. I’m not convinced that a consumption tax can’t be designed and implemented that is an improvement over the current income tax system. A consumption tax should be simpler, less costly, and less intrusive than our income tax, and it should incent saving while our income tax incents non-productivity and earning. While neither concept is perfect, I’d rather incent saving than non-productivity if those were our only two choices. In any case, it would be nice to really get some sort of reform in our tax system that simplifies it and reduces the cost, I think.

    • loren

      Not for income tax there doesn’t. Income tax is only for the use of the money nothing else. You are in bondage. Real bondage, slavery. Like the kind that use to exist in the country only now it is worse.

    • James

      Henry, before the 16th Amendment of 1913, Congress had power to tax by Art. I, Sec. 8, Cl. 1, and Art. I, Sec. 9, cl. 4, since 1789. Those powers were not repealed by the 16th Amendment, repealing that aamendment would simply revert back to the original taxing powers.

  • loren

    Just to make something very clear, almost everything here discussed is of little value until we, as a nation, can get our property and privacy back in our own hands. If what is known to have happened to us in the last 77 years is not enough for open rebellion and what has been enacted in the last 9 years isn’t worthy of open rebellion then nothing and I repeat nothing that is being said here will have any affect on our future as a nation. We are a well feed, well armed, well house SLAVE nation but our lives are not ours to control because your government is a co-conspirator with the federal reserve bank and they have you by the groin. Most of the nation is under water financially and you know I’m right. Most of you are looking at lost jobs , homes, family, life. So you still think it is someone else s fault. This is why I say you need to know who your enemy is. Some of you may know what I’m talking about but most of you are spinning your tires and blowing smoke.

  • http://www.stanelaine.com Stan B

    I’d like to offer belated answer to NEMO re: 16th amendment ratification.
    If I recall correctly, you may find some answers by watching the AARON RUSSO documentary “FROM FREEDOM TO FASCISM” In it ex IRS employees contested their personal income tax issues. Some were lucky and won, because they probably had shrewd attorneys. Some lost and went to jail. You can also find additional information on the IRS and the FEDERAL RESERVE on the EDWIN VIEIRA website.
    The IRS routinely employ the same intimidation tactics on US citizens as the GESTAPO did in Nazi Germany, primarily because Nazism and Socialism are just different labels for collectivism. We need to bear in mind that the FEDERAL RESERVE was spawned in 1913 by the same ‘entity’ that devised the IRS. The common denominators of the proposed OBAMA HEALTHCARE REFORM Bill, the IRS and the FEDERAL RESERVE are that,they are all deviously conconcted and intentionally complex in order to discourage and confuse the average citizen.

    • Nemo

      Stan B:

      Thank you!!! And, I had just got a link to the Aaron Russo thing and will view it soon and then I will look at the second one you referenced.

      God Bless,

      Nemo

  • Shar

    Read The Secrets of the Federal Reserve on the Library of Congress website.

  • Henry

    Check Fair Tax Fraud.com. It shows different tax plans that you should look at. About the 16th amendment, it is there and it’s been there for almost 100 years. It is up to Congress to decide on the 16th amendment. What this country needs is to get a better tax system that is workable and less complicated.

    • Tony

      The Sixteenth Amendment changed nothing…….

      “The Sixteenth Amendment…..does not extend the taxing power to new or excepted subjects….
      Peck & Co. v. Lowe, 247 U.S. 165, at 172 (1918)

      The Supreme Court ruled exactly that in Eisner v. Macomber, 252 U.S. 189 (1920), where the Court stated the following: “The 16th Amendment must be construed in connection with the taxing clauses of the original Constitution and the effect attributed to them before the Amendment was adopted.”

      What this means is the taxing power congress had before the 16th Amendment remained the same after the 16th Amendment.

    • loren

      No we don’t

  • phred

    Once again, I read a bit over 2/3rds down, then skipped to the bottom to make my comment.
    The problem as I see it is manifold:
    The public school system, implemented and bastardized by our loving politicians. It teaches little of the history from which the United States emerged. But worse, far, far worse, it teaches, and praises this as if it’s proper and good, that we have a “two party political system.” To me, that’s the first thing that MUST be changed. As political parties got their start, they were probably a necessity. The Whigs wanted certain things instituted, and certain people elected, so they put their money nd influence together to get that done. The Torys, etc. ditto. Now, however, the career politicos have turned the “party system” into a “perptual election machine”, and the “big two” parties and their adherents are the major benafactors of what the schools teach, i.e., the “two party system”.
    Secondarily, there are those who believe they are “throwing away their vote” if they don’t vote for a Damnocrat or a Republicrud, so they keep on electing the same evil, election after election. Example? We have Obama as president today, not because he was the best choice, nor even the “lesser of two evils”, but as a backlash because people got fed up with the Bush administration, and policies they made, and antiAmerican crap they instituted like the Patriot Act, and TSA searches, etc., and taxing, and generally ignoring the American people and the Constitution, etc. (that’s been a problem for over 150 years, BTW, the ignoring of the Constitution). So Obama is a backlash. As was Jimmy Carter, and most of the rest of the presidents from the 20th century and even before. A “two party system” corck of male bovine deficate.
    Another thing taught by our school system is that “we are trying to teach you (the American youth) to be good and responsible citizens.” Which ends up meaning that you will folow the leaders, and do as you’re told, and “It’s the Law” shall become the prominent phrase with which you live your lives.
    I agree completely with Dave H. in that the ONLY political party which has as it’s major foundation and thrust, the following of the Constitution is that of the Libertarioan Party, and we DO need to get on that bandwagon. I see it has been suggested, as well, that we look at the party calling itself the “Constitution Party”. however, the truth is, that party has as it’s major thrust and foundation, a religious belief, and where that religion varies from what the founders actually put into the Constitution, guess what will take precedent?
    And, therein lies what I think is the major, major, even MAJOR, problem here: We, as citizens, have demanded that our prejudii be put into law, time after time. I live in Alaska. A couple of elections back we had a proposed AK. Constitutional Amendment on the ballot, that one of definiton of marriage, via the Christian definition, of course. We had politicians from all over the United States up here campaigning for the passage of that one, and, eventually it actually became a part of the Alaska Constitution. Doesn’t matter that it seems to violate the U.S. version of the Constitution, just that enough Christians wanted their “ethics” put in place, and they worked to make it happen. In other words, in spite of what the founders seemed to have wanted as far as personal liberties and responsiblities go, the majority slapped down everyone else, and no one has a say about civil liberties for everybody, equal treatment for everybody, equal rights for everybody, need I go on?
    But, still we tell our politicians to keep on restricting the freedoms of everybody, because we want our particular version of “truth, justice and the ‘American Way’ ” to hold sway.
    It’s our own selfishness that helps to fuel our own downfall!
    Anyway, we DO indeed, need ot rid ourselves of the income tax system, the Federal Reserve Bank ( which is niether Federal, nor Reserved!), and most of our politicians! Politics can, indeed, be corrupting, but it doesn’t have to be, and term limits will call a good deal of the corruption to a halt!
    Okay, I s’pose I’ve ran on long enough. But look into the Libertarian Party, look hard. My hope is that we can get soem Libertarians elected, and that, eventually, as things get back to the U.S. Constitution, the Libertarians will become libertarians and political parties will begin to disolve all over the country!, including the Libertarian. And we stop being selfish about our beliefs and let the other guy have his/her beliefs as well!

    • loren

      Way to go with your bad ass self

  • http://www.stanelaine.com Stan B

    Good article PHRED,
    TERM LIMITS to minimize corruption, that’s a positive move.
    Abolish the FEDERAL RESERVE and establish the real,or true value of the present currency while ‘phasing in’ a new currency based on gold/silver standard?,complex but do-able.
    But first we need to impeach Obama for multiple violations of the CONSTITUTION…then we need to arrest all the ‘Socialist’ Czars that he has illegally hired as advisors…uum, now it is becoming a little more challenging.
    Here is the biggest obstacle…CORRUPTION,… in Washington & Wall St.
    When we follow the money trail, we travel through multiple layers of corruption and greed, through a veritable labyrinth of evil and stealth. The higher we go, the more we uncover,and the more disgusting it becomes. And if we happen to be in a high profile position, it can even be become downright dangerous. Ask Glenn Beck.
    Now, who can we choose for President? Let’s assume we could get Ron PAUL in as President(since he is the only elected official I know of with a clean track record)…then with whom are we going to replace the rest of the crime syndicate now posing as government..members of JUDICIALWATCH perhaps?
    I think Jesus Christ would be an ideal choice (for those with an open mind and a sense of humor!) but he is not running for office..not yet.
    There are however, “a few good men” who realize and accept that the success and sovereignty of this great country are founded on CONSTITUTIONAL principles Not all career politicians are corrupt and full of verbal effluvium. There are men and women of integrity and honesty and character and sound leadereship abilities….they do exist, and WE THE PEOPLE must find them and bring them together.
    Let us put all our labels aside..(Republicans,Democrats, Independents, Libertarians,Conservatives, Neo-cons, Liberal..ad infinitum)for a moment and fight together for our liberty as AMERICANS!…… otherwise Ron Paul stands alone….and the devil will not need any help in turning our beautiful country into a GULAG system of mass misery for the American people. The truth is ugly I know, but someone needs to tell it.

  • http://www.stanelaine.com Stan B

    To BOB LIVINGSTON,
    NO Bob, with all due respect the fix is not simple. Yes, we should share our thoughts,ideas and opinions. But we must establish a common ground and agree TOGETHER to find real solutions to bring our nation back to sanity. We must identify WHO the real enemy is (yes some of you know WHO they are)and expose their AGENDA. We need to formulate a strategy to combat this insidious beast Otherwise we will just simply continue to debate, discuss and intellectualize ourselves into oblivion. This is war folks, and the ultimate adversary is very gradually taking control of our country right under our noses.
    We are witnessing the manifestation of evil in the flesh. And evidence of this fact are in the unfolding global events that are there for everyone to see. That is for those who have eyes to see.

  • Dusty Embers

    But if there really is no debt, how can the economy collapse?

    • J C

      People lose confidence in the devalued currency. The same thing happened to the Roman Empire.

  • R.E.Powell

    to Henry on Mar 8

    Let’s all stop misquoting God’s word by saying that money is the root of all evil…The LOVE of money is the root of all kinds of evil. Taxes cannot be evil, they just ARE. People can be evil. Money just IS. Also, Henry, I have wondered about His saying to “render unto Caesar…” but I am pretty sure He was making a comparison between the puny Caesar with his face on a piece of metal, and the only one true and living God who created everything including the metal, Caesar, and everything else and who could uncreate them if He wanted. In other words, Caesar created and therefore OWNS nothing, really. You still have to contend with these earthly powers during your brief stay here, but don’t make them out to be any more than the sorry sinners we actually are. God owns everything whether you acknowledge Him or not. Your disbelief doesn’t make a speck of difference to the immutable Truth. In other words, you are not changing Reality, just YOUR puny version of reality. That is the only reality that you will never be able to escape. When we are finally held to account, taxes won’t even be visible in the rear-view mirror. All this tax stuff is important to try to get right or improve while we’re here. But while God wants our best (first fruits), we have nothing to offer that He doesn’t already completely control and own. If Caesar wants a worthless piece of paper or metal from you in return for your life and freedom, maybe it is smart to just hand it over. But maybe, just maybe, we aren’t supposed to enable, create, condone, or participate in a corrupt, filthy, deceitful, dishonest, wrong, pitiful exercise in laying down our most precious gift of life and time/labor and giving in to evils of slavery, physical, financial, or otherwise. Maybe we are called to stand on our own 2 God-given feet and proclaim freedom throughout the world….unashamed, unafraid, and knowing that God is (on the side of) Freedom, Truth, Honesty, Faithfulness, Love and favors all those who stand up for Him. Our Founders weren’t stupid……they KNEW where our freedom and blessings came from. We just have to stop being such wimps and declare truth and call out wrongdoers without unnecessary apologies and bowing to any plain old men or their plain old idols. Stand Up America……….Randy

    • loren

      I disagree. For thousands of years people have claimed to own countries, people, all kinds of property. You should try it you may do more good with your life and the lives of those around you. Wait sorry, I’m wrong, you can’t own anything in this country because you are the one who is owned. You are a bond to the federal government against the federal debt for the use of fiat federal reserve notes. End of story. Try and prove me wrong. You can’t.

  • http://www.personaliberty,.com Stuart Bugg

    The 16th gives congress the authority to lay taxes on INcome. Where this country went wrong in the last century was to allow tax entities (both corporate and individual) to determine net as a taxible sum. We should dump the IRS code and replace it with a tax on all income reported under a tax id number. The rate would be applied on the full price of everything sold which would include wages, goods, real estate and other equities (without regard to purchase price or production expenses) and anything else sold. No deductions, exemptions, credits, depreciation or other excuses for political mischief. It would probably be considered a transaction tax. I would not anticipate it to be more than 5% and if you let people like me carve away at the federal gov. I am sure we could do with much less. At tax time you just pull out a 3×5 card and your checkbook.

  • phred

    Since it seems that this dialogue will soon degenerate into a Christian insistance thing like most of these Liberty Digest things do, I’ll state my belief about that ONCE and probably just monitor the rest of this discussion:
    I am totally fed up with the people who insist that we must “get behind the Only word of God, and……” And that’s how we’ll get our country back! The truth is, if we give in to the Christian element that want to dictate to all of the rest of us how we live, how we believe, how we think, how much we “donate” to the churches, then add in our taxes so they can turn the public schools into more Christian Palaces—that is EXACTLY how we have lost so much of our liberties up until now—by insisting on passing laws favoring our own personal prejudii. This country is founded on INDIVIDUAL freedoms and liberties, and is NOT, IN ANY FASHION founded to be a Christian nation. Here on the Liberty Digest, but another thread, I actually had on fellow tell me that as far as he is concerned this country is founded as a Protestant Dictatorship (not the exact words he used, just the gist of his meaning).
    Get over religious legislating, and using my tax monies to promote your belief system. Thank You!

  • http://michael.kirkby@rogers.com Michael Kirkby

    Hi y’all. I’ve lived in the States and have resided in Canada since 1978. I work for an accounting firm and I can’t tell you how much I agree with this article. The Fed is the biggest scam ever perpetrated on the public, next to the Civil War. I have always admired Thomas Jefferson and I don’t think the American people have had a president, excepting Munroe of course, who measures up to him. The sad part of it is that you could have a man like Jefferson today, but he would be stymied by the avarice, hubris and criminality that the present system purports as transparent accountability; if he wasn’t entirely corrupted by the system over time. Then again I am speaking of a man with the moral fibre and courage not seen in today’s politicians. Of course Jefferson and Munroe only manageged to stymy Hamiltion’s corrupt system of central banking and centralized government for so long. It took Lincoln and his international banksters to perpetrate the Civil War that broke the Republic’s back, and the Jekyll Island meeting in 1913 along with Wilson pushing it through to enmesh and enslave John Q. Public with this grandiose scheme. I certainly could use that 30% the government takes off my taxable income. I would be out of debt in one year. Of course it may not matter much by 2013 anyway. I hear they’re predicting a financial crash that will bankrupt the world.

  • phred

    Oh, hell, Michael Kirby, the world is going to end in 2012 anyway, so a economic collapse the year after that will mean nothing! Lol

  • http://AOL Gary

    If alot of You will Remember, the Federal Income Tax Books That Used to Come Out When It was Time To File Your Tax Returns and I Think it was The First Page Stated The ONLY WAY the Federal Govt. was Legally Able to take Income Taxes was IF The President DECLARED an ACT of WAR and I’ve had so Many Senators and Congressmen That I’ve Brought this to their Attention and They Did NOTHING ! I Worked within the Gov’t.and While Working on a DOD Site I Broke My Neck and Back and Now I Receive Disability as I’m CLASSIFIED “Worthless” and Now What I was Forced to Pay Into is NOT Going to Be There as So Many are Drawing From SSI and SSD that Haven’t Worked a Day in Their Life or in Some Cases 6 months. So What am I Suppose to Do ?????

  • Christopher Huber

    Fine. then a consumption tax it is then. Sales tax most would call it. 6% for things under 100 dollars. 10% for things over up to 200. and then 20& up to a 1000. then 25% anything over. going to Chez Tublio where everything is 100 and up then I am sorry that is a luxury that people who eat at McD’s as family night shouldn’t have to subsidize. Just like Doctor’s wives who running to the club will find that the Laundry bill may go up unless they can now fine time to do it themselves, or that massage they were planning on will cost another 20 dollars. Of course that lap dance will cost more too. Just common sense. Your don’t really need it so it should cost more.

  • http://none Michael

    Someone asked for a name of someone who took the IRS to court and won on the basis of there is no law. His name which no one in this entire post has ever mentioned is Attorney Tom Cryer Shreveport, Louisiana. You can find out more at http://www.truthattack.org
    Please visit this site and make your own mind up. He also has a idea to get rid of the IRS maybe this is the best place to fight the war on our freedom.

  • Barney Murrell

    I did not know there were so many crazy people in this world untill I read some of the posting on this site.

    All you anti-tax people have already destroyed the country. So I wonder how you people will like it when the U.S.A. resembles Somalia (no government); and oh boy, you people will be FREE to rape, rob, and pillage one another to your hearts content and, unfortunately to all the others who know “freedom and civilization are not free.”

    • blackhat

      Good for you…just sign your paycheck over to big brother and “hope” that he will give back some “change”…

    • J C

      Gee Barney, That is without a doubt one of the more twisted views I’ve seen. You feel that somehow we will be a great nation by sacrificing everything to our wise and benevolent government? By supporting commercial Imperialism. Just like an English subject of the 18th and 19th centuries? That is not what America was founded on and it is not what made America a great nation. In fact if you take the blinders off you might notice that we are in decline at a breakneck speed, and we’ve never been more overtaxed, we’ve never had our military spread farther afield….just like the Roman Empire.
      No sir, over taxation is not the cure, its the cancer.

    • http://www.americairemember.com angel-wanna-be

      BARNEY, Anti tax people destroyed this country, huh?_?_C’mon,Really?__The Federal Government has the ability to print money for ANY whim ANYTHING AT ALL AND WHO’S GONNA STOP THEM?, which is pretty evident, isn’t it?__GM_the Banks??,,,,The Federal Gov’t can NOT run out of money!__The dollar won’t be worth much, but guaranteed they don’t need our money either!__I agree with Bob, income tax is for the snoops in Washington making sure we don’t make too much money and gain too much power than they feel a normal citizen should have.If they see too much prosperity across the board you bet your rear-end, taxes will go up! States on the other hand don’t have the priviledges of money printing power. I don’t have a problem with paying my fair share. As I’ve said before,This America is NOT our Grandparents or even our Parents America__The Land of the Free, Home of the Brave, have been replaced with, the Land of the Greed and Be Very Afraid, my friend___I was born in the 50′s_as I’m sure alot of other folks on here are__I was born and raised in the Country and I Remember what it was truley like to be free!

  • Dave

    The Federal gov can get all the money they need in excise taxes and tariffs, period. They should get their noses out of Education, Energy, and liquidate ALL assets that dont constitutionally belong to them like the BLM National Forest and National Parks. Return it all to the states they reside in.

    • J C

      The Federal Government claims to own a little over 30% of the United States. Mostly in the west. Oddly, some of the largest shale oil fields on the planet are in these areas. Must be just a coincidence.

      • http://www.americairemember.com angel-wanna-be

        GLENN BECK SAID THE OTHER NIGHT THE FED ONWED CLOSER TO 60% OF PROPERTIES IN THE WEST__DON’T KNOW FOR SURE, THOUGH, GONNA CHECK?__YEP, FEDS OWN OVER SHALE OIL FIELDS__QUITE A COINCIDENCE__IMAGINE THAT!

  • JeffH

    Thought I would share this with all of you;

    Soros manipulates euro – is U.S. dollar next? Jerome Corsi suspects left-wing billionaire George Soros is trying to manipulate the euro as part of his goal of establishing a one-world currency and a one-world government.
    Fact ##45: It’s a Liberal White House, by George! In 2003, billionaire George Soros came up with the idea to form a liberal alternative to the conservative Heritage Foundation. While the Leftist staffed the Center for American Progress (CAP) with former Clinton administration employees, they have heavy influence with the Obama administration, including a role in guiding the Obama transition team and loaning out staff to join President Obama’s administration. At least one of CAP’s employees was so controversial that he was compelled to step down: Van Jones, President Obama’s nominee for “green czar,” had close ties to Marxist and other radical groups and theories. After leaving the administration, Mr. Jones rejoined CAP. Former Sen. Tom Daschle, a lobbyist on the staff of CAP, was in line to become President Obama’s Secretary of Health and Human Services but withdrew his name after records showed he was negligent in his taxes. After returning to the lobbying world, Sen. Daschle continued to advise White House and congressional leaders on the issue of health care–despite the conflict of interest.
    http://www.earstohear.net/soros.html

  • Bill

    Bob,

    You’re on the right track, but as someone mentioned, the Fed. income tax is tightly coupled to the Federal Reserve system and, in turn, fractional reserve banking (FRB).

    If we get rid of the Fed, phase out FRB (i.e. giving bankers the right to “conjure” money out of thin air) a fiat currency can work. It must NOT be permitted to be inflated at the whim of weak, cowardly politicians who propose new laws to give goodies to the constituents in exchange for votes. If these crooks were required to raise the taxes needed to pay for their “public bribes,” they’d be booted out rather quickly.

    Finally, along with closing the doors to the Fed, we need to audit its books and jail the thieves – how long would Greenspan, Bernanke, Geitner and their ilk remain free if the truth were known?

    And, while we’re on the subject, WHERE’S OUR GOLD? Audit Fort Knox!

  • http://none Brenda

    Personally, in my opinion, the whole enchilada of radicals, both Dems & Repubs in DC should be prosecuted for TREASON. They are attacking the United States of America & the American People by NOT REPRESENTING “We The People”, by giving aid & comfort to our enemies, selling out our jobs to foreign countries, giving our rights & freedoms to terrorists while attempting to take away the rights & freedoms of “We The People”, destroying our economic system to gain power over us through inflation, depression, & possible poverty increasing across the country, taking complete control over all business, nationalizing everything in violation of The Constitution of the United States of Ameria & the Bill of Rights, bribing and/or threatening Senators & House Representatives, completely IGNORING the WILL OF THE PEOPLE, taxation without TRUE Representation, committing almost all forms of corruption & criminal activities in violation of Federal Law & the Constitution, which “We the People” would always be prosecuted for, etc. They all should be prosecuted for TREASON by DEMAND of “WE THE PEOPLE” of the United States of America! I say VOTE THEM ALL OUT & PROSECUTE for TREASON!
    Just an opinion based on self observation, experience, & research.

  • Bob Wire

    interesting notions, ~

    If it wasn’t for Federal employees getting paid on the first and 15th of each month ~ regardless !

    The house of cards would fall in on itself.

    Like a junkie needing his routine “fit”

    desperation would reach far and wide, greatly affecting everyone regardless of their station in life or income.

    Even the wine-o living under a bridge in a cardboard box would find competition for his spot and everything he owned with in a matter of 30 days.

    It’s not just income tax, we are taxed to death at every turn. A 1955 Chevy has generated more cash flow in taxes then it ever cost new.

    But so is every citizen in every nation. Look it up!

    I was watching a documentary film about these European scholars,who when to live with an small island native tribe. The currency of the island was based on the value of pig ownership.

    They document a story of a young man that got frisky with one of the pretty native girls, her grass skirt somehow got ripped off. Anyway he was subjected to his “rights”, (tribal council) where he was found guilty of “unbecoming conduct” and the girls family rewarded a pig. The young man had no pig, but that didn’t matter. He was told to leave the village until which time he could produce a pig.

    So basically, he lost his home and family. He went into the jungle in search of a pig and stayed gone many days. Only to return pigless.

    The island being small, it seems that all pigs were “owned” by someone, there being no spare pig about.

    The boy hide out with the scholars for several days but the news finally go out he was back with “No” pig to pay his fine.

    An angry crowd started assembling in front of the scholars thatch hooch, protesting his presence.

    This matter was only resolved with the boys father offering the offended family a pig.

    So ~ there is no place to run a hide. At least we don’t live on a island with a fixed number of pigs to share.

    Not yet anyway.

  • rose

    Hey Dave, the Federal Income Tax does not fund the government. Your forgetting about all the other tax that we pay. That was doing a very nice job funding all of our countries needs and we were in the black before Income tax came along. It’s illegal and criminal and was done all for the purpose of filling the pockets of the tyrants. ie the world bank, the bilderbergers all the black hearted bastards that run the world.

  • Bob Wire

    I’ve spot read through this thread, I’ve read the opening commentary.

    I read where people used the word liberal, like it might be some baby poop caution yellow, warning be ware! Give wide berth! What that might have to do with the thread, eludes me.

    In fact the whole thread eludes me. ~ Taxes accompanies government and has always been with civilized man in one form or another. ” Give unto Caesar what is Caesar’s”

    I suppose if everyone lived in the wilderness or like some Arkansas Ridge Runners, We might be completely independent and self reliant, make our own whiskey, grow our own crops, marry cousins and live a sweet life without outside interference.

    But with a new American gained every 14 seconds and the population approaching 350 million, I don’t think it realistic to think that kind of life might work for everyone. ( Personally I’d love it) For I truly dislike government.

    But we are not talking about just me and what I think is best for me but a Nation of peoples. While I came from a rural background, a grandson of “share croppers” working and living on the “thirds” , every third bushel, third bail, every third calf. ~ Chickens was the only thing not in the count and fresh milk. ~ That was where the family got most ofit’s cash to spend. Eggs and butter. It wasn’t much, but we don’t need much money and few places to spend it.

    My grandfather was a bright man that could only make his mark, he could craft an oxen yoke from a Bord ark tree and drive 4 oxen and on occasions make 50cents a day pulling tree stumps. When I became a man, they had moved into town after WWII and worked in a factory, life on the farm became impossible with sons away fighting a war.

    When he got too old to work, he and grandmother picked up pecans to pay their school taxes. To this day, I remember their hands stained black from all the pecan how proud Grandfather was to pay his taxes. Now seniors don’t have to pay school taxes as I understand it, but then they did.

    Americans need to think about this long and hard ~ for I remember a time when it was considered and honor to pay taxes and they were no easier to pay then, then they are now.

    I’d love a chance to be in the 45% bracket myself.

    That said, I sure hate to see money spent foolishly ~ a dollar is a lot of money to me.

    Money has been wasted, stolen, poorly spent by our government officials but that’s no call to start with all this blue dog and liberal crap I hear coming out of some peoples mouths like the world might center around them. It’s sanctimonious, uneducated and crass. It’s everybody’s problem what happening today, not just yours.

    The GOP has dominated the political landscape for the last 30 years. And “federal taxes” are fairly close to where they’ve always been. In fact didn’t 43 cuts taxes for top wage earners? The notion being this cash being in the more affluent hands would be spent wiser and create jobs if memory serves.

    That the beloved Ron Reagan, promised to “get the Fed off the peoples backs” back in 80″ he failed to consider the city, county and state was going to jump on us with both feet with increases, user fees, permits and licensing fees and penalties, let’s not forget the penalties. Not to mention deregulation, retiring the Federal Watch Dog that assured Americans were getting a fair shake from bankers, industry,service and energy providers.

    American has been is a slow bleed-out for many years ~ if you are just now feeling weak from the loss of cash flow ~ consider yourself one of the luckier ones.

    Let’s face it ~ We’ve got the government we deserve to have and quit blaming everyone but ourselves for the problems we have today.

    Go out tomorrow and create some wealth! and expect to pay a modest tax for the privilege. If you can’t do that, let us discuss why. Government might well be part of the problem, ( I know it’s served me poorly too many times to mention) if so , lets talk about it and work fix it.

    But taxes are here to stay.

    My personal biggest problems are with State Licenses and Regulation and a Fed that like to start wars but not pay for them.

  • Carlucci

    D Reed,

    Duty, import and excise taxes support the infrastructure, not income tax. You pay duty, import, and excise taxes when you buy gas, pay sales tax, property tax, etc.

    Cracking the Code is a very good book, but unfortunately, the author Peter Eric Hendrickson is in federal prison in Michigan until 2012. He went to prison for writing this book which is an expose of the fraud of the income tax and he is not the only one to suffer this consequence.

    This article is correct – the key concept of the income tax is control or bondage. A heavy progressive income tax is the second plank of the Communist Manifesto. We have been taught to give up our rights for the sake of the common good, which ultimately always leads to a police state. This is how the elites in government control the American people and it all started with FDR. When they wanted to bring in the income tax, (which didn’t exist at the time) they used Disney’s cartoon Donald Duck as a “spokesperson” who hyped it all in the name of being a good patriotic American. And isn’t that what the elites usually do to sucker the American people into going to “wars” (which are usually invasions of other countries under the guise of providing “safety”, but are really to steal oil or whatever else they can get their grubby hands on). And if you disagree with all this Imperialism, the mainstream media whores in cahoots with the feds try to lay guilt trips on the American people with drivel like “If you aren’t with us, you are with the terrorists” or other malarkey.

    The 16th Amendment was never ratified. Read a book called “The Law that Never Was” by William Benson and Martin Beckman. It will blow your mind, and then make you very angry.

    Like this article says, the fiat money system in this nation is like vapor or ether. “And in reality, Federal Government has no debt. How can the Federal Government have debt with electronic money that is nothing more than computer symbols that can be created to infinity?”
    Dr. Ron Paul says the same thing.

    My question is this – if the national debt is phantom, isn’t ALL debt in this nation phantom because it is based on worthless fiat currency that is created out of thin air?

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