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Pay-For-Slay

December 30, 2010 by  

Pay-For-Slay

From our “statements we never want to see in an email from a U.S. Representative” file:

“We would ask that you not broadcast this accomplishment out to any of your lists, even if they are ‘supporters’… Thus far, it seems that no press or blogs have discovered it… The longer this goes unnoticed, the better our chances of keeping it.”  — Rep. Earl Blumenauer, (D-Ore.)

This cryptic missive issued by the gentleman from Oregon refers to the reintroduction — by Medicare regulation — of an Obamacare proposal to pay “practitioners” — §1233 (2(a)) doesn’t require “practitioner” to mean “medical school graduate” — to annually push people to consider shuffling off the final steps of their mortal coil. While end-of-life counseling became a part of Medicare during the Bush Administration, the Obamacare regulation to which Blumenauer referred in that spooky email introduces the grading and payment of “practitioners” who even the Democrat-controlled New York Times acknowledges must:

“…advise patients on options for end-of-life care, which may include advance directives to forego aggressive life-sustaining treatment.”

The same “pay-for-slay” plan was actually a part of the original version of Obamacare. After Republicans discovered the planned introduction of “death panels,” the proposal was dropped to facilitate passage of the largest government intrusion into the private sector since William Howard Taft went to the grocery store.

Now, thanks to some Blumenauer staffer’s electronic indiscretion, we learn the Democrats are planning to circumvent the legislative process and return section 1233′s allowance of annual “ready to die yet?” consultations to legal status through the regulation-writing process.

The revelation of said email raises a couple of noteworthy questions, foremost among them:

“…if this is such a grand idea, then why are Democrats trying to hide it?”

In the interests of full disclosure, I am entirely comfortable with the idea of a sound-minded human being making an informed decision to end their own suffering, as long as that decision doesn’t require me to steam-clean the drapes afterwards. But Blumenauer’s secretly-celebrated regulation doesn’t introduce the idea of paying doctors to annually press “end-of-life-planning” to alleviate the suffering of people, it introduces the idea of paying doctors to annually press Kevorkian-esque logic to alleviate the suffering of government.

Section 936 of the ObamaCare legislation actually calls for governmentally-constructed brochures and videos which will essentially serve as scripts for teaching practitioners to convince people to pull the plug.

“Hi, I’m President Barack Obama. Like members of Congress, I am never going to be subjected to the tenets of Obamacare. But, if you’re watching this, you know someone who is. Here are some tips on the best ways to talk old people into assuming room temperature…”

Yikes.

What worries me is the likelihood of Federally-prompted bureaucrat “practitioners” talking people into making rash decisions because Kathleen Sebelius has a budget line to meet. If someone is being eaten alive by bone cancer, they ought to have the option to ask someone to turn off their lights. But if some Department of Health and Human Services functionary is pushing them to hit the switch not to alleviate incredible pain, but because they need the bed, that’s seriously macabre.

We don’t generally means-test the viability of civilized people in a civilized nation. Once we do — and Obamacare clearly raises that possibility — then we will find ourselves living in a nation in which a Federal bureaucracy is making determinations on the value of individuals. We can’t even successfully accomplish that task when dealing with convicted criminals on death row. Though it is interesting how the same ideological mélange which declaims the death penalty for mass-murderers warms to the idea of smothering Grandma with a proverbial pillow.

Liberals often whine about the supposed evils of corporate culture, but they’re evidently backing a regulatory addition to Obamacare which entails the ultimate in sinister anonymity:

“Well, Mrs. Patient 423-06-4487, we COULD begin a regimen of financially burdensome treatments which may or may not cure your… let me check… hmm… 4485, 4486, AH — cancer; OR, you can take this pill, feel a little sleepy, and see your mother in the afterlife.”

In addition to the zombie-like return of the “pay-for-slay” provision, a perusal of H.R. 3200 also reveals:

“…the Secretary shall include quality measures on end of life care and advanced care planning that have been adopted or endorsed by a consensus-based organization.”

Terrific. Global warming cultists are “a consensus-based organization,” and I wouldn’t ask them for a weather forecast. My potential end-of-life decision will be made in consultation with my physician — sorry — “practitioner” and my loved ones (in my case, my dog). I neither need nor want advice from any “consensus-based” anything.

Mr. Crystal, we’ve arrived at a consensus. You suck. We bribed your dog with bacon. Have fun being dead.”

Ben Crystal

is a 1993 graduate of Davidson College and has burned the better part of the last two decades getting over the damage done by modern-day higher education. He now lives in Savannah, Ga., where he has hosted an award-winning radio talk show and been featured as a political analyst for television. Currently a principal at Saltymoss Productions—a media company specializing in concept television and campaign production, speechwriting and media strategy—Ben has written numerous articles on the subjects of municipal authoritarianism, the economic fallacy of sin taxes and analyses of congressional abuses of power.

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  • JeffH

    Just come right out and say it damnit…DEATH PANELS! What’s a few lies anyway? Palin had it right the first time, but oh no, she’s as crazy as a loon and just as typically a right wing fearmonger…NOT! Ah, but it’s not a myth, and that’s where Palin nailed it. All inhumanities begin with small steps; otherwise the public might rebel against a policy that went straight to the “final solution.” As a matter of fact, every liberal loon that smirked and berated Sarah Palin deserves a slap on the head and should issue an apology. When she said that the new health-care law would lead to “death panels” deciding who gets life-saving treatment and who does not, she was spot on…again! This rule will inevitably lead to bureaucrats deciding who is “fit” to live and who is not.

    Are you progressive/liberals starting to understand what and who you support yet? C’mon folks, afterall it ain’t rocket science to see the deceptions taking place in the Big House.

    • JeffH

      Just for the record, you can see Russia from Alaska!
      http://ac360.blogs.cnn.com/2008/09/30/you-can-see-russia-from-here/

      • Jeremy Leochner

        But Jeff that dosent enhance ones foreign policy experience or ability. You can see Mexico from California and Canada from Washington and well alot of states but that dosent qualify the people and politicians living in those states to be diplomats.

        • Bud

          doesn’t is the correct way to spell what you were trying spell. You used to fail spelling bees didn’t you?

          • GuyM

            Bud, Yes, he probably did! But that was because he went to a Federally dumbed-down funded school here in the USA!!

          • barbm

            and you should proof read your own posts. you left out “to” in your sentence, “… what you were trying spell.”

          • Jeremy Leochner

            Thanks Bud. I thought my sentence had a mistake or two.

          • Kinetic1

            Bud,
            Don’t even begin to try and correct these posts. The are some folks here who thing that the comma is the only punctuation needed. We could all do with a little spell checking and proof reading.

          • Robt Hauser

            In the heat and rage of the moment, I am typo-prone myself. Who gives a damn? Are you going to proof read the instructions on the side of a fire extinguisher before using it to keep your house from burning down?

        • Linda

          @Jeremy – Sarah Palin NEVER said the ‘You can see Russia…” statement. That was Tina Fey on Saturday Night Live. But go ahead and keep drinking the koolaid if it make’s you feel better and smarter.

          • http://www.lhprealty.com Louis

            Actually, she did say it—kind of. On her show, Sarah Palin’s Alaska, she said, “You can see Russia from here–well, almost” If you’re going to try and quote someone, stick with the WHOLE statement. Don’t be like these leftist loons like Grayson in Florida.

          • TIME

            Hi Linda,

            Saddly the Comedy channels news programs have higher ratings than CBS, or NBC, even ABC – CNN, CNBC, MSNBC, HLN, FOX, news.
            If thats not a very telling sign of our nations news programs then one has to ask why not?

            Its rather strange that other than sound bite hits used by the media for control there would be no need at all for media.

            Man dies after being bitten by large thing, News at 11.
            Bad storm hits coast many stranded, News at 6.
            House burns – strange events, news at 11.

            These are triggers, {you may use the term they pushed my buttons.} Tese are done by disign to invoke a reaction. AKA “MIND Control.”
            Keep in mind when the news is done by major media, 6 am 12 noon, 6 pm, 11 pm, Note your either busy doing something, nearly sleeping, just whoke up from sleeping, or having dinner, lunch etc.
            SO your not 100% focused on the issues so you get a “BITE” that eats at your brian, then you agree with that bite as its the PASSIVE method around it, with little thinking and yet its embedded in your thinking.

            All News medais do this daily, as a matter of fact if it were not as powerful as it is, there would be only one or two news stations, not dozens of them. Its not unlike 1000 channels on the telie and yet nothing new to see.

            Or how your sold on “the seasons Best New Shows” according to whom?

            Its only due to Americans tuning in and turing off, {they tune in the channel they think they like, then they turn off their brains.}

          • http://none Mike

            Time, You mean that the majority of mush brains out there might have to think for themselves?They have pills for that you know. Any anxity you feel can be turned off by this name your brand anti-depressent. Mike L.

          • hflashman

            “they are our next-door neighbors, and you can actually see Russia from land here in Alaska.” <— Palin

            What's scary is that she used that to tout her "foriegn affairs' expertise and people swallowed it as giving her such. What's idiotic is that she stated it to tout her foreign affairs expertise. Especially as she had never been outside the US nor ever met a foreign head of state.

          • meteorlady

            Hey Flashman? Please tell me what foreign experience Obama had? Maybe his periodic visits with the Bilderburg Group? Or hey, maybe Soros?

          • hflashman

            Certainly. Obama spoke intelligently and was clear in his expertise and views. He never tried to say that because one small island of a state…one which he had never been to, qualified him in some way.

            The fact is…seeing as how he has dealt with foreign affairs, he’s good at it. Very good to our fortune.

          • Bud

            flashmann , you mean like “I have been to all 57 states….”

          • JeffH

            hflash…at least get it right all the way…Sarah Palin told ABC news “…you can actually see Russia from land here in Alaska, from an island in Alaska.”

          • hflashman

            Sorry…I pasted it from politic.com.

          • DaveH

            For Flashdunce, and the other Liberals who just can’t get enough of Sarah, here is some reason (speaking of something foreign to Liberals):
            http://www.slate.com/id/2200155/

          • Dan az

            Hey flashy
            Why dont you compare the truth about palin to your beloved obumer?
            The Real Truth About Sarah Palin. Ouch!

            Very interesting facts on two very different women.

            First, Sarah Palin:

            Whether your a Democrat, Independent, or Republican, the second half of this e-mail should make all of us very sick.

            READ TO THE VERY END. VERY ENLIGHTENING. AND VERY DISTURBING.

            By Dewie Whetsell, an Alaskan Fisherman.
            Posted in comments on Greta Van Susteren’s article referencing the MOVEON ad about Sarah Palin.

            The last 45 of my 66 years I’ve spent in a commercial fishing town in Alaska . I understand Alaska politics but never understood national politics very well until this last year or two. Here’s the point: Neither side of the Palin phenomenon gets it. It’s not about persona, style, rhetoric, it’s about doing things. Even Palin supporters never mention the things that I’m about to mention here.

            1. Democrats forget that Palin was the Darling of the Democrats. As soon as Palin took the Governor’s office away from a fellow Republican and tough SOB, Frank Murkowski, she tore into the Republican’s “Corrupt Bastards Club” (CBC) and sent them packing. Many of them are now residing in State housing and wearing orange jump suits The Democrats reacted by skipping around the yard, throwing confetti and singing, “la la la” (you know how they are). Name another governor in this country that has ever done anything like that.

            2. Now with the CBC gone, there were fewer Alaskan politicians to protect the huge oil companies here. So she constructed and enacted a new system of splitting the oil profits called “ACES.” Exxon (the biggest corporation in the world) protested and Sarah told them, “Don’t let the door hit you in the ass on your way out.” They stayed. And Alaska residents went from being merely wealthy to being rich. Of course, the other international oil companies fell into line. The handwriting was on the wall. Again, give me the name of any other governor in the country that has done that.

            3. The other thing she did when she walked into the governor’s office is she got the list of State requests for federal funding for projects, known as “pork.” She went through the list, took out 85% of them and put them in the when-hell-freezes-over stack. She let locals know that if Alaska needs something to be built, we’ll pay for it ourselves. Maybe she figured she could use the money she got from selling the previous governor’s jet airplane. Maybe she could use the money she saved by dismissing the governor’s cook (remarking that she could cook for her own family), and giving back the State vehicle issued to her, maintaining that she already had a car, and dismissing her State provided security force (never mentioning that she’s packing heat herself). I’m still waiting to hear the names of those other governors.

            4. Now, even with her much-ridiculed “gosh and golly” mannerism, she also managed to put together a totally new approach to getting a natural gas pipeline built which will be the biggest private construction project in the history of North America. No one else could do it although they tried. If that doesn’t impress you, then you’re trying hard to be unimpressed.

            5. For 30 years, Exxon held a lease to do exploratory drilling at a place called Point Thompson. They made excuses the entire time about why they couldn’t start drilling. In truth they were holding it like an investment. No governor for 30 years could get them started. Then, she told them she was revoking their lease and kicking them out. They protested and threatened court action. She shrugged and reminded them that they knew the way to the court house. Alaska won again.

            6. President Obama wants the nation to be on 25% renewable resources for electricity by 2025. Sarah went to the legislature and submitted her plan for Alaska to be at 50% renewable by 2025. We are already at 25%. I can give you more specifics about things getting done as opposed to style and swish. Everybody wants to look cool, sound cool. But it’s just a cover-up. I’m still waiting to hear from liberals the names of those other governors who can match what mine did in two and a half years. I won’t be holding my breath.

            By the way, she was content to return to Alaska after the national election and go back to work. But the adolescent screechers didn’t want to let her. And no one ever told them what happens when you continually jab and pester a barracuda.

            You have just read truth about Sarah Palin that sends the media and the Democrats into a frenzy to discredit her. They are only interested in skirt chasers, dishonesty, immoral people, liars, womanizers, murderers, and bitter ex-presidents’ wives.

            So, Go SARAH. I only wish the men in Washington had your guts, determination, honesty, and morals.

            Only FOOLS listen to a biased media.

          • libertytrain

            MeteorLady – was he not born and raised outside of this country?

          • JMichael

            reply to Dan az: thank you for the post by the Alaskan fisherman. Still, Mrs. Palin goes from dem to repub(jump ship),repub to tea party(opportunist),to bookseller,media pundant,to tv show host(reality whatever,bear grylls,man v. wild).she does come off as very crafty and shows backbone. now with her name recognition does she goto the White House? The tea-party didn’t win all that much. Even if she does run and wins, she still has to fight Congress and Wallstreet. But, with vapid statements like “see Russia from Alaska”(geographically:yes;politically:no)and others, she comes off as every other vapid responding politician in D.C. Also, I believe her husband is/was an Alaskan fisherman and have you researched this Dewie Whetsell?

          • Jeremy Leochner

            Linda your right. However thats not the context im arguing with. Mrs Palin stated the fact that alaska was close to russia enhanced her foreign policy capability and when asked by Katie Couric on the subject she confirmed that that was her belief and defended it. Im arguing that the proximity of her state to another country dosen’t enhance her foreign policy credentials and that I think its rather unusual that she appears to think it does.

          • JMichael

            follow-up to Dan az: please refer to http://factcheck.org/2009/12/sarah-palins-accomplishments/. or not post s**t because it sounds good to you. chump.

          • Dan az

            JMichael
            I guess the truth about someone really hurts huh?Now lets compare the other radical that give obumer his lessons.
            First Lady Michelle Obama’s Servant List and Pay Scale

            The first lady requires more than twenty attendants. 22 at last count. Here’s the latest list I could find, with they pay rates.

            1. $172,200 – Sher, Susan (Chief Of Staff)
            2. $140,000 – Frye, Jocelyn C. (Deputy Assistant to the President and Director of Policy And Projects For The First Lady)
            3. $113,000 – Rogers, Desiree G. (Special Assistant to the President and White House Social Secretary)
            4. $102,000 – Johnston, Camille Y. (Special Assistant to the President and Director of Communications for the First Lady)
            5. $100,000 – Winter, Melissa E. (Special Assistant to the President and Deputy Chief Of Staff to the First Lady)
            6. $90,000 – Medina , David S. (Deputy Chief Of Staff to the First Lady)
            7. $84,000 – Lelyveld, Catherine M. (Director and Press Secretary to the First Lady)
            8. $75,000 – Starkey, Frances M. (Director of Scheduling and Advance for the First Lady)
            9. $70,000 – Sanders, Trooper (Deputy Director of Policy and Projects for the First Lady)
            10. $65,000 – Burnough, Erinn J. (Deputy Director and Deputy Social Secretary)
            11. $64,000 – Reinstein, Joseph B. (Deputy Director and Deputy Social Secretary)
            12. $62,000 – Goodman, Jennifer R. (Deputy Director of Scheduling and Events Coordinator For The First Lady)
            13. $60,000 – Fitts, Alan O. (Deputy Director of Advance and Trip Director for the First Lady)
            14. $57,500 – Lewis, Dana M. (Special Assistant and Personal Aide to the First Lady)
            15. $52,500 – Mustaphi, Semonti M. (Associate Director and Deputy Press Secretary to The First Lady)
            16. $50,000 – Jarvis, Kristen E. (Special=2 0Assistant for Scheduling and Traveling Aide to The First Lady)
            17. $45,000 – Lechtenberg, Tyler A. (Associate Director of Correspondence For The First Lady)
            18. $43,000 – Tubman, Samantha (Deputy Associate Director, Social Office)
            19. $40,000 – Boswell, Joseph J. (Executive Assistant to the Chief Of Staff to the First Lady)
            20. $36,000 – Armbruster, Sally M. (Staff Assistant to the Social Secretary)
            21. $35,000 – Bookey, Natalie (Staff Assistant)
            22. $35,000 – Jackson, Deilia A. (Deputy Associate Director of Correspondence for the First Lady)

            This is community organizing at it’s finest.

          • Al Sieber

            Good one Dan, theres a little snow in the mountains around me, but, just rain and wind here, my son lives in Williams and got a lot of snow.

          • libertytrain

            Al – I have to tell you that I so enjoy reading your and Dan’s comments to each other about your part of the country. That area is about as foreign to me as Mars. And, if I were writing a novel, the two of you would be the cowboys in the white hats protecting the heroine from danger, though you would have taught her how to handle her own weapons and she too, could fight the good fight when it became necessary.

          • Robt Hauser

            Louis….why do you refer to Alan Grayson as a “leftist loon”? He is the only one in the congress who has the gonadic gumption to give Benny the Buttface Bernanke the grossly long overdue Third Degree on just what happened to the approx. 9.3 trillion of our tax dollars that he had purportedly “lost” on “off-balance sheet” transactions….transactions with YOUR money—NOT the misnomered “federal reserve bank’s” to be spending all over Hell’s Half Acre like a bunch of drunken sailors. I always get a yuk out of you teabaggers and Birchites who condemn as “lefties” anyone like myself who feels homicidal rage toward nonproductive PARASITES and USURERS who get stink-rich off of OPM and then seek refuge behind the excuse that it’s only the “great American Free Enterprise system in action”….yes, well the so called Great American Free Enterprise system has gotten to be entirely jewish and anything but American and is “free” only to self-serving social and ethnic tape worms like Buttface Bernanke and Angela Braley who does nothing but sit on her thumb and get 2.3 billion for screwing Americans out of health care.
            What teabaggers laughably refer to as the “American Free Enterprise” system is nothing more than a license to swindle and extort under color of “law” and can be summarized in seven magic words:

            HURRAY FOR US AND SCREW EVERYBODY ELSE.

        • JeffH

          Jeremy Leochner, and I suppose you also believe that there are 57 states? C’mon, that was weak…but what the hay.

        • Dagney

          Please explain the qualifications Barak Obama had as a fresh senator and community organizer from Chicago…hmmmmmmm?????? I’m sorry, I’d much rather have an inexperienced person who LOVES America and her people than an inexperienced person who is a Marxist and hates this country. Call me silly…..

          • DaveH

            Well, he has been to Kenya.

          • Angel Wannabe

            DaveH, That about does it, for his foreign policy experience too!

          • Carole Howell

            Here is what the Germans think of Obama Care.

            America in Decline: Why Germans Think We’re Insane
            A look at our empire in decline through the eyes of the European media.
            December 26, 2010 |

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            As an American expat living in the European Union, I’ve started to see America from a different perspective.

            The European Union has a larger economy and more people than America does. Though it spends less — right around 9 percent of GNP on medical, whereas we in the U.S. spend close to between 15 to 16 percent of GNP on medical — the EU pretty much insures 100 percent of its population.

            The U.S. has 59 million people medically uninsured; 132 million without dental insurance; 60 million without paid sick leave; 40 million on food stamps. Everybody in the European Union has cradle-to-grave access to universal medical and a dental plan by law. The law also requires paid sick leave; paid annual leave; paid maternity leave. When you realize all of that, it becomes easy to understand why many Europeans think America has gone insane.

            Der Spiegel has run an interesting feature called “A Superpower in Decline,” which attempts to explain to a German audience such odd phenomena as the rise of the Tea Party, without the hedging or attempts at “balance” found in mainstream U.S. media. On the Tea Parties:

            Full of Hatred: “The Tea Party, that group of white, older voters who claim that they want their country back, is angry. Fox News host Glenn Beck, a recovering alcoholic who likens Obama to Adolf Hitler, is angry. Beck doesn’t quite know what he wants to be — maybe a politician, maybe president, maybe a preacher — and he doesn’t know what he wants to do, either, or least he hasn’t come up with any specific ideas or plans. But he is full of hatred.”

            The piece continues with the sobering assessment that America’s actual unemployment rate isn’t really 10 percent, but close to 20 percent when we factor in the number of people who have stopped looking for work.

            Some social scientists think that making sure large-scale crime or fascism never takes root in Europe again requires a taxpayer investment in a strong social safety net. Can we learn from Europe? Isn’t it better to invest in a social safety net than in a large criminal justice system? (In America over 2 million people are incarcerated.)

            Jobless Benefits That Never Run Out

            Unlike here, in Germany jobless benefits never run out. Not only that — as part of their social safety net, all job seekers continue to be medically insured, as are their families.

            In the German jobless benefit system, when “jobless benefit 1″ runs out, “jobless benefit 2,” also known as HartzIV, kicks in. That one never gets cut off. The jobless also have contributions made for their pensions. They receive other types of insurance coverage from the state. As you can imagine, the estimated 2 million unemployed Americans who almost had no benefits this Christmas seems a particular horror show to Europeans, made worse by the fact that the U.S. government does not provide any medical insurance to American unemployment recipients. Europeans routinely recoil at that in disbelief and disgust.

            In another piece the Spiegel magazine steps away from statistics and tells the story of Pam Brown, who personifies what is coming to be known as the Nouveau American poor. Pam Brown was a former executive assistant on Wall Street, and her shocking decline has become part of the American story:

            American society is breaking apart. Millions of people have lost their jobs and fallen into poverty. Among them, for the first time, are many middle-class families. Meet Pam Brown from New York, whose life changed overnight. The crisis caught her unprepared. “It was horrible,” Pam Brown remembers. “Overnight I found myself on the wrong side of the fence. It never occurred to me that something like this could happen to me. I got very depressed.” Brown sits in a cheap diner on West 14th Street in Manhattan, stirring her $1.35 coffee. That’s all she orders — it’s too late for breakfast and too early for lunch. She also needs to save money. Until early 2009, Brown worked as an executive assistant on Wall Street, earning more than $80,000 a year, living in a six-bedroom house with her three sons. Today, she’s long-term unemployed and has to make do with a tiny one-bedroom in the Bronx.

            It’s important to note that no country in the European Union uses food stamps in order to humiliate its disadvantaged citizens in the grocery checkout line. Even worse is the fact that even the humbling food stamp allotment may not provide enough food for America’s jobless families. So it is on a reoccurring basis that some of these families report eating out of garbage cans to the European media.

            For Pam Brown, last winter was the worst. One day she ran out of food completely and had to go through trash cans. She fell into a deep depression … For many, like Brown, the downfall is a Kafkaesque odyssey, a humiliation hard to comprehend. Help is not in sight: their government and their society have abandoned them.

            Pam Brown and her children were disturbingly, indeed incomprehensibly, allowed to fall straight to the bottom. The richest country in the world becomes morally bankrupt when someone like Pam Brown and her children have to pick through trash to eat, abandoned with a callous disregard by the American government. People like Brown have found themselves dispossessed due to the robber baron actions of the Wall Street elite.

            Hunger in the Land of the Big Mac

            A shocking headline from a Swiss newspaper reads (Berner Zeitung) “Hunger in the Land of the Big Mac.” Though the article is in German, the pictures are worth 1,000 words and need no translation. Given the fact that the Swiss virtually eliminated hunger, how do we as Americans think they will view these pictures, to which the American population has apparently been desensitized.

            This appears to be a picture of two mothers collecting food boxes from the charity Feed the Children.

            Perhaps the only way for us to remember what we really look like in America is to see ourselves through the eyes of others. While it is true that we can all be proud Americans, surely we don’t have to be proud of the broken American social safety net. Surely we can do better than that. Can a European-style social safety net rescue the American working and middle classes from GOP and Tea Party warfare?

          • eddie47d

            Carole,Those are very important considerations.

        • Alan

          You are right. I wonder what countries had Obama seen from Bill Aires basement though… You did not have any problems with his credentials, did you?

        • karen

          And the bummer can see 57 states.

        • DaveH

          Oh, sure, we must have “experienced” diplomats. They have done so well for us in the past.
          Our founders disdained foreign entanglements which by their very nature encourage corruption.
          From George Washington’s Farewell Address 1796:
          http://avalon.law.yale.edu/18th_century/washing.asp

      • BDOG

        WELL JEFF, EVEN IF I WERE A LIBERAL I THINK I WOULD BE CONCERNED WITH SOMETHING AS IMPORTANT AS THIS. ALL YOU GOT IS SOME STUPID DUMBASS REMARK LIKE THAT.THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY HAS BEEN KEEPING YOU GUYS IGNORANT AND POOR YOUR WHOLE LIFE AND YOU FAIL TO SEE THE REAL ISSUSES WE ARE DEALING WITH.

        • JeffH

          BDOG, speaking of dumass…don’t yell! I can see you majored in public speaking!

        • meteorlady

          Ok – so here’s some FACTS that you might want to also concern yourself about, mostly thanks to Bill Clinton’s policies.

          #1 The United States has lost approximately 42,400 factories since 2001. About 75 percent of those factories employed over 500 people when they were still in operation.

          #2 Dell Inc., one of America ‘s largest manufacturers of computers, has announced plans to dramatically expand its operations in China with an investment of over $100 billion over the next decade.

          #3 Dell has announced that it will be closing its last large U.S. manufacturing facility in Winston-Salem , North Carolina in November. Approximately 900 jobs will be lost.

          #4 In 2008, 1.2 billion cell phones were sold worldwide. So how many of them were manufactured inside the United States ? Zero.

          #5 According to a new study conducted by the Economic Policy Institute, if the U.S. trade deficit with China continues to increase at its current rate, the U.S. economy will lose over half a million jobs this year alone.

          #6 As of the end of July, the U.S. trade deficit with China had risen 18 percent compared to the same time period a year ago.

          #7 The United States has lost a total of about 5.5 million manufacturing jobs since October 2000.

          #8 According to Tax Notes, between 1999 and 2008 employment at the foreign affiliates of U.S. parent companies increased an astounding 30 percent to 10.1 million. During that exact same time period, U.S. employment at American multinational corporations declined 8 percent to 21.1 million.

          #9 In 1959, manufacturing represented 28 percent of U.S. economic output. In 2008, it represented 11.5 percent.

          #10 Ford Motor Company recently announced the closure of a factory that produces the Ford Ranger in St. Paul, Minnesota . Approximately 750 good paying middle class jobs are going to be lost because making Ford Rangers in Minnesota does not fit in with Ford’s new “global” manufacturing strategy.

          #11 As of the end of 2009, less than 12 million Americans worked in manufacturing. The last time less than 12 million Americans were employed in manufacturing was in 1941.

          #12 In the United States today, consumption accounts for 70 percent of GDP. Of this 70 percent, over half is spent on services.

          #13 The United States has lost a whopping 32 percent of its manufacturing jobs since the year 2000.

          #14 In 2001, the United States ranked fourth in the world in per capita broadband Internet use. Today it ranks 15th.

          #15 Manufacturing employment in the U.S. computer industry is actually lower in 2010 than it was in 1975.

          #16 Printed circuit boards are used in tens of thousands of different products. Asia now produces 84 percent of them worldwide.

          #17 The United States spends approximately $3.90 on Chinese goods for every $1 that the Chinese spend on goods from the United States .

          #18 One prominent economist is projecting that the Chinese economy will be three times larger than the U.S. economy by the year 2040.

          #19 The U.S. Census Bureau says that 43.6 million Americans are now living in poverty and according to them that is the highest number of poor Americans in the 51 years that records have been kept.

          But hey – it’s important to argue about Sarah’s remarks right?

          • hflashman

            Interesting you balme Clinton…yet the data you cite ranges during the Bush II/GOP decade. So….let me see f i have this correct as to your logic. Clinton is responsible for the ills of Bush II. Bush II is not responsbile for the ills of today since it was a Dem. Congress his last two years in office. All the good occurring under Bush II (was there any? Serious question)..was because of the GOP Congress keeping Clinton in check (yet absolved of responsibility for what you say was the bad things caused by Clinton). And Obama is responsible for the economic collapse which occurred prior to his swearing into office.

            Wow …

          • Pete NY “R I P FEDERAL RESERVE BANK”

            Lets look at the multi-decade trade gap and manufacturing decline, not just the past 10 years. This wretched trend can be reversed. How? Eliminate the MINIMUM WAGE LAWS AND DECIMATE CORPORATE TAXES. Companies will stay here and return here and jobs will spring up like wild flowers in spring. Good people, the road to hell is paved with good intentions.

          • DaveH

            Okay, Flash, do you deny that unemployment was at 8% when Obama took office, and it is 10% now?
            Here is my real question. How many years of Obama and more than 8% unemployment will it take for you to fess up and admit that the continuing bad economy is Obama and his fellow Democrats’ fault? 2 more? 4 more? 6 more?

          • clh

            Hey flashman, when Osama gets kicked off his thrown you can go with him to Kenya and kiss his ass there. He has spent more in his two years as FAKE President than all the other Presidents to date. Yes, He is to blame and will continue to be until he is OUT OF OFFICE and yesterday is NOT soon enough

          • Dan az

            Flashy
            Lets compare obumers record shall we.
            Running list of Obama blunders, ignorance, and Socialist agenda:
            Remember, this is what you all voted for…..
            (I can give you concrehttp://www.datehookup.com/Thread-273137.htmte examples – unlike the Bush bashers)

          • Dan az

            Flashy try this it might be easier for you.
            http://www.datehookup.com/Thread-273137.htm

      • Bogusbob

        I have been there, and seen Russia on a clear day.

      • http://MozzelaFirefox Jo

        When you say you can see Russia from an Alaskan island, is it one of those island Clinton gave to Russia?

      • Kinetic1

        Of course you can, Jeff. You can see Mexico from parts of California as well. The point was that Palin claimed the physical relationship between Alaska and Russia provided proof of her foreign relations experience. It’s not even a question of whether or not she had more experience than Candidate Obama, but the fact that she felt that this bit of trivia had any bearing on the subject.

    • 2WarAbnVet

      It is amazing how often that poor “know-nothing” Sarah Palin proves to be prescient (i.e. perceiving the significance of events before they occur).

      • hflashman

        Ummmmm…. on what subject? Jeesh ….

        • JeffH

          Are you a communist?..jeeesh!

          • hflashman

            Nope. So palin got that one wrong. Now …. as the question was asked…what exactly was palin prescient on? Levi being a jerk to her bimbo daughter ? ( who is following in her mother’s footsteps of bimboism)

          • DaveH

            Note Jeff, that Flashdunce can’t even be consistent with his own Liberal beliefs.
            So, Sarah’s daughter is a Bimbo, Flashdunce? You don’t approve of children out of wedlock? I thought the Liberals were the enlightened ones who didn’t judge the free decisions of Women?
            I love it when Liberals show their true nature.

          • Schamblee7

            Wow! Name calling instead of discussing the real issues faced by real American tax payers. Before getting started, I am sorry in advance for misspellings and bad grammer. I too am a product of the failing school system. I do have some thoughts about how to fix that to. I have a few ideas to fix the broke tax system, poverty, caring for the children and seniors and many more things, but until we address the government issue of our officals not knowing who they work for then the rest is going to fail from the on set.We have a problem of career politions instead of what should be limited term “Satesman” (women- sorry ladies). The perception of corruption if not infact full blown corruption in our government must be addressed and fixed. Then there is the issue of the Tax payer bailout of Corporations and by passing our courts for bankruptcy or reorganization bankruptcy. The government over stepped and bypassed the legal system set up in our country and allows contracts to stop the every day people from using the system to protect themself from big, bad corporations who always will try to take advantage of the little guy. (Look at history) How about a government that no longer represents the folks who do vote for them and fund them (We the people). We will have to find answers to the problem of corporate greed and big business buying the government. We should be discussing how to best take back the power of the people and stop the verbal bullying of each other. There is so much that needs to be fixed! Like how to write regulation that would prevent corporate America from using money to seduce our officals to ignor us and allow the lack of regulation that has allowed preditory capitalism to thrive. There has been a complete loss of jobs and industries, loss of workers rights, loss of Liberty in general, Class war fair to explode, health and education to fall by the way side. These problems are just the tip of the iceburg, it is the fault of both parties and the sleepyness of the everyday joe who wants to be mad and mouth off a bit, but do nothing to fix it. We haveno real oversite with teeth in it to stop big business from buying our government. Everyone touts change but we don’t hear the big question answered. What change. None of the parties are going to rock the boat. No not even Sarah, Obumer,Repubs nor Dems and sorry to say not even Tea party. It will have to be the real people in this country, yes you and I!!!! Just voting is not enough anymore. We need to write the party platform we the people want and then find a person who can very strongly follow direction and get the job done. Big corporations and big government need real actions brought against them (Names of CEO’s and real government officals)in the form of REAL LEGAL CHARGES FILED IN COURT! Yes, file law suits for treason. It is sooo late and I am so very tired, so getting off my soap box and putting this back out there for ya’ll. Please stop with hurtfull words that do not give solutions to the real issues facing us all. We are out here and we need real help and real fixes!!!!

    • hflashman

      By the gawds above…and you wonder why Bluemenauer didn’t want this broadcast to the lunatic fringe? because YOU HAVE NO SHAME NOR COMMON SENSE.

      Furst, any regulation, whatever the agency, has to be published for X days, open for comment, testimony and comment received and taken, then it can be adopted or discarded. For a politician to not want his message braodcast to the lunatic fringe…(if in fact that was part of his message. My email from Blumenauer did not contain such ‘cryptic’ statements. I just reverified that) is understandable.

      So let’s talk about counselling at the end of life. Counselling…not “instructions” on snuffing anyone. The regulation cited by Blumenaur…my Congressman … is almost identical to the Death With Dignity Act language in the State of Oregon. Wacked lunatics (Palin and her followers)and agenda driven right wing blatherers of idiocy (ala Crystal) have decided it is a “death panel’ urging mass executions.

      It doesn’t matter that is no where in the language. It doesn’t matter such are specifically barred…it doesn’t matter the pain, suffering, and dangers of non counselling. To these wacko’s, it’s whatever evils they decided to insert because they themselves would have the urges to do away with Granny ad thus they assume this will allow them to accomplish such. Ad they want to be saved from thier own evils.

      Every argument Crystal makes was debated in Oregon when it passed (twice) the Death With Dignity Act. Both times sanity prevailed ad the supprters of ignorance, pain and suffering were shut sdown as the Act passed with wide margins of approval. And subsequent practice has shown that the hype and lies against it were and are…hype and lies.

      This is what I’m havig a difficult time understanding. Why would any sane person in a civilized society be against educating terminally ill in reducing pain and suffering and how to prepare for when the lights go out? What kind of animal is it that rallies against such charity and kindness? How far will the wacked lunatic fringe go in their attacks against America and its People?

      They have no respect for life. And yet they assume that such lack of respect on thier part will encourage others to accept whatever ‘advice’ or ‘support” they espouse?

      Get real.

      • meteorlady

        So you can call names or insinuate that we are all stupid here, but the fact is it’s my business and my business alone, whom I talk to about end of life decisions. It’s not the government’s job, nor is it the government’s function to mandate that I get counseling from some low paid clerk, oh excuse me “practitioner”.

        All I know is that I worked my entire life to pay my own way. I don’t like, want or need the government to interfere with my health care, my health care options, or my personal decisions about who and when I decide to end my life or treatments just because there are irresponsible and dependent people living off what I earn.

        • hflashman

          Ummmm…see anywhere where it’s mandatory? Nope? So how exactly are you forced to be given knowledge and education…since you seem hell bent on not being informed except from what you are programmed to spout?

          • Pete NY “R I P FEDERAL RESERVE BANK”

            Lets look at “mandatory”. I did not read the Obamacare bill. However, its been said that Obamacare itself is mandatory upon every citizen of the States. So, counseling becomes mandatory. If you don’t subscribe, you pay a fine or penalty. The State of Va., among others, is suing to escape the mandatory provisions.

          • hflashman

            Pete…last I heard, every law is mandatory upon every citizen.

            In a brilliant political move, Pres. Obama and the Dems have given us the public option which the majority of Americans want. They took the page straight from Eisenhoauer and how he went about helping to destroy McCarthy.

            It was a political election year and Ike was looking at being wacked in the vote. Not only was it looking like the Dems would pick up a few seats, but Ike’s Moderate wing was going to get thwacked by McCathry’s wacked rabid reactionary wing.

            So when McCarthy proposed a piece of heinious legislation, Ike stood silent pblically. He hated it, thought it was destructive and wanted nothing to do with it. But he rallied his wing, worked behind the scenes with the Dems in planning, and pushed it through. It gave his part of the GOP the support it needed to stay in control of the Republican party.

            Then..as Ike foresaw, the legislation McCarthy pushed through repelled the voters as way too extreme. They wanted nothing to do with more draconian oversight of their lives. They began to turn against McCarthyism. And…again as Ike foreaw, the SCOTUS threw out the draconian security law McCarthy pushed through.

            Because the McCartyites wanted something…they had to accept what the Dems and Ike wanted in the first place.

            Now…the GOP and the wacked screamed and lied and pouted against the public option. So they were given what they wanted. No public option. The GOP being idiots…accepted mandatory pay and insurance thinking that was thier path to ower and insurance company riches.

            nw…when the courts get around to tossing out the mandatory insurance clause…which they will..and which the Dems and this president planned on since day 1, the public will have the benefits of a major part of the Plan and not wanting it to be tossed.

            the GOP leadership will be facing a presidential election year, many of their Sebators will be u for election..and they’ll need to appear Moderate if they will have any chance of success at the polls. Otherwise, they’re gonna get thier as* kicked becaue ezxtremism won’t carry the majority of voters.

            Thus..the only option will be some type of Public option. Or the GOP goes into the elections against health care, against the Middle Class, and against keeping the benefits the public will have and continue to want.

            Voila! We get what the majority wants…a public option ! And the Insurance Compaies will be crying because the prfits promised by the GOP will not be there. Everyone wins but the bad guys.

            As I said…brilliant move …absolutely brilliant.

          • DaveH

            You Lie, Flashdunce! Flash said “In a brilliant political move, Pres. Obama and the Dems have given us the public option which the majority of Americans want”.
            The Truth, the majority of Americans want the Healthcare law repealed:
            http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/current_events/healthcare/health_care_law

          • DaveH

            And then there’s this:
            http://cnsnews.com/news/article/61851

          • BDOG

            HEY DAVE,FLASHMAN THINKS THE MAJORITY WANTS THIS,I GUESS HE MISSED THE ELECTION RESULTS IN NOVEMBER.

        • Rick N.

          meteorlady:
          You are apparently a pretty sharp lady; thus, this end-of-life counseling may not be of value to you. You can simply tell your health care provider “Thanks for the information, but I’ve already taken care of those decisions.” End of story – no harm, no foul.

          For others who aren’t as sharp as you, this counseling may be of great value in helping them to make their end-of-life decisions. Many people don’t even think about these decisions when they are healthy and capable. I think most people would agree that they have no desire to squander their life savings to prolong their life for a year or two with extraordinary measures — particularly if their quality of life is poor during that timeframe.

          I really don’t understand all the fearmongering. I don’t think people can be “talked into” giving up their life against their will by simply providing them with honest straight talk. This whole thing is completely overhyped.

          • DaveH

            It is not fear-mongering, Rick, it is learning from experience. Government doesn’t run anything efficiently, and for good reason. Give a man a guaranteed job, one in which the customer carries no weight, and that man is going to slack off. It’s human nature. So, by logic, and by experience, allowing the Government to become the middleman in our doctor/patient relationship is going to result in shoddier and more expensive healthcare. Someone has to pay for that meddlesome, inefficient, and uncaring middleman. So as the financial resources dwindle, somebody (other than the patient) will have to decide who gets the precious life-preserving medical resources. Thus the euphemism “Death Panels”. And you better believe there will be politics in that decision. So, rather than people paying for those medical resources from their own pockets, they will be subject to the arbitrary political decisions of committee members.
            Since the cost of Government always exceeds those of the Free Market, the inevitable result will be fewer medical resources. So more people will do without than before. Wasn’t that supposed to be the Government’s excuse for meddling with the Healthcare system? The high costs?
            Of course there are people who would benefit from the Healthcare Bill. They are called “Government Employees”.

          • http://none Mike

            Dave, I wonder what all these people are going to think when we the cashcow dries up. This is going to become un sustainable really quickly. I would say within a matter of 4 to 5 years the rationing and shortages will start to kick in. Within 10 to 12 everyone will be wanting the old bad system back. And by then it will be far to late. Mike L.

          • JeffH

            Mike, that is just one of the many pitfalls of socialism.

          • Angel Wannabe

            Yep JeffH, Socialism works until ya start running out of everyone elses money!

      • BarleyWheets

        You are forgetting a very big issue. Counseling is one thing and can indeed be helpful but, already Medicare is forcing “death Panel” antics. My brother (65 yrs old) recently was refused certain types of medical care because it was NOT cost effective for Medicare. So soon it will be with all of us over 50. We will have a choice alright, to be counseled into dying with assistance or continue living in great pain because the medical system will not be allowed to treat you. Thats ‘death panels’!! Communism is where this current government is forcing us. Total disregard for our Consitution. Total disregard for our rights AND FREEDOM.

        • Rick N.

          Whoa, whoa, whoa BarleyWheets! You’re sounding like a liberal there. It’s a widely held conservative belief that health care is not a RIGHT. It’s a service that you pay for. Are you saying that because someone (govt, private health insurance, or whoever) won’t hand over the money you want to pay for the expensive health care you desire, they are therefore dictating your health care? That’s BS! If you want the service, pay for it. If you can’t afford it, don’t blame someone else.

          You bitch about communism and disregard for the Constitution, then you complain that you will be “forced” into sickness and death because your government handout isn’t big enough??? Come on man, which side are you on?

          • DaveH

            Easy there, Rick. Maybe he was talking about the fact that money is forcibly taken from our paychecks to pay for that medicare, whether we like it or not.
            Are you going to call us Communist next for expecting Government to give back the Social Security payments which we also were forced to pay (and the dollar was worth much more when it was taken 30 years ago)?

          • Rick N.

            Dave, (and BarleyWheets)

            Sorry if I came on too hard. Many conservatives hold programs like Social Security and Medicare to be the product of socialist ideology. There is certainly nothing wrong with expecting some payback for the money you paid in. The problem is that the trust fund has been sinking towards insolvency. We cannot continue to demand higher levels of service (meaning more advanced medical procedures) with longer life expectancies and skyrocketing medical costs. The money is simply not there. At some point, something has to give. Either our Medicare withholding must increase; or level of service must decrease; or cost controls must be strengthened; or the number of people on Medicare must decrease; or SOMETHING. Otherwise, the trust fund will be broke and money will start coming out of the federal discretionary budget (our income taxes) to pay for Medicare benefits.

            I know there aren’t too many conservatives that are a fan of the Affordable Care Act, but provisions of the legislation have increased the projected trust fund solvency from 2017 to 2029. (Facts/reports can be found at http://www.hhs.gov)

          • DaveH

            Very good reply, Rick.

      • barbm

        you think it’s okay to talk old people who are in pain into killing themselves or allowing somebody else to do it and you think it’s okay for an irresponsible, promiscuous woman to kill her unborn child, then you think you have the right to say we “have no respect for life?” bah humbug!!

        • hflashman

          1. Forced? Anyone say anything abut being forced? only the wacked who are making up lies are saying that.

          2. Don’t want an abortion? Don’t have one. And don’t force your religious cult views on people who are independently rejecting those views.

          Simple and easy.

          • JC

            Forced…Denied…what’s the difference?

          • DaveH

            Duh, yeah Flashdunce, we are being forced. Government is Force. Keep your thieving gang out of our wallets. You are no more noble than a common rapist.

      • Bill

        Hflashman see you are earning your government money disputing facts with bullshit as usual again, I for one will be happy to see Obama go, I’m hopeful you will follow him. Twist that fact around f***

        • hflashman

          Bill…what ‘facts’ are you saying was disputed with BS? Noted you failed to state what “facts’ were cited in error. Since you didn’t list any, I guess we assume there weren’t any for you to list.

          Jeesh …

      • Marlene

        I am against it because I believe God has pre-ordained when and how my death will occur – combined with the weak genes of my maternal grandfather. Government, Obama and certainly no ‘panels’ appointed by them, have any right to say when, where and how I should die. As for this being publicized and debated prior to the passage of the bill, when did any of this occur and where’s the proof to back up your claim? This administration sneaks around on its’ collective belly, oozing under doors, to avoid detection by the general public and if you’d open your Obama-worshiping eyes, you’d know it. I rest my case.

      • http://None PA Gal

        I believe people should have the right to end their lives if their quality of life is unbearable, but that decision should be made by the person, their doctor, and their family. The government should stay out of it; it is not their business. People don’t trust the government one iota. Given Berwick’s love of the British system of rationing, is it any wonder people are up in arms.

        As to your great state of Oregon, what happened to the lady with lung cancer who needed an expensive drug to help her live longer? The state refused to pay and offered her end-of-life drugs. I saw her on TV crying saying she didn’t want to die. Her doctor got the drug company to furnish the drug to her, and she eventually died.

        Now the FDA is disallowing Avastin which is used to treat late-stage breast cancer due to the cost. If your wife, mother,daughter, or some other female member of your family had this cancer, wouldn’t you want to keep them as long as possible? The irony of this is that the wealthy people will get whatever treatment they need to stay alive. Congress is exempt from Obamacare, so it is only the middle-class and poor citizens who will die. Just remember, you lefties won’t be exempt from these policies. You’ll just be led to slaughter without admitting what’s happening to you.

    • Robert Smith

      At least with a fictional “Death Panel” folks have some say in their situation.

      The CURRENT REALITY is “pay or die.”

      Can anyone explain to me why the current system is better?

      Oh, and while you are at it, how can anyone claim to be “pro-life” while watching people die because they can’t afford proper health care?

      Rob

      • meteorlady

        Name who can’t afford proper medical care? We have Medicare, Medicaid and VA. That covers most everyone that needs or wants to be covered. We have employee sponsored medical (I pay for my employees) and we have low income health care clinics. Our hospital emergency rooms are filed to capacity with people seeking free medical treatment.

        Pay or die? Gads where do you live. In my community (which is very conservative by the way) we pay for people that need medical attention through locally funded charities (none of which have salaried people working for them) and we take up collections for the truly needy. We have churches that have medical needs funds, etc.

        • Mediawatcher

          I don’t know where you live, but I would urge you to go spend some time in a truly impoverished community, where even private community resources such as the ones you cite are overwhelmed by the demand. Then come back and suggest how such a community might best address its healthcare needs.

          If you believe that healthcare is merely a private commodity, the purchase of which is optional, to which access is easy, and for which there are ready substitutes (the economist’s definition of a free market, I believe), then deciding who gets denied care is straightforward.

          If, however, you believe there’s some moral obligation in there, which is the rationale behind requiring emergency rooms to provide care regardless of ability to pay (morality being something not covered by market forces), or if you believe keeping citizens healthy brings with it some public good as well as private benefit (public goods, again, not being covered by market forces), how do you suggest that be accomplished if private organizations can’t do it?

          • Pete NY “R I P FEDERAL RESERVE BANK”

            Your comment reeks of disorderly thinking. First of all, you must mention a specific wretched community and then analyze the reasons for its condition. If you do the exercise you will conclude that liberal progressive policy brought on the sad state of affairs. Secondly, if you are so worried about it, you will sell all that you have and give to the poor. Don’t ask society to do the heavy lifting for you. And don’t blame responsible people for the sins of the wicked.

          • Pete NY “R I P FEDERAL RESERVE BANK”

            2nd attempt to reply: Your comment reeks of disorderly thinking. First of all, you must mention a specific wretched community and then analyze the reasons for its condition. If you do the exercise you will conclude that liberal progressive policy brought on the sad state of affairs. Secondly, if you are so worried about it, you will sell all that you have and give to the poor. Don’t ask society to do the heavy lifting for you. And don’t blame responsible people for the sins of the wicked.

          • Angel Wannabe

            Media watcher___ We already Had Medicare, Medcaid(which helps those not being able to afford health care) and the VA__ there would be only Two reasons, for people who need Government health care assistance not to have it.(1) not knowing where to go to get signed up (2) no transportation, C’mon!_ We didn’t need Obamacare, it was a power grab of 1/6th of the economy! Assistance for the poor was already in place. All we needed a reform of the current health care. Such as a cap on some of these Medicine prices, Tort Reform and the inability to turn someone down for pre-existing condition. We Needed NOTHING MORE!

      • Pete NY “R I P FEDERAL RESERVE BANK”

        The current system is better because it teaches people to become their own caregivers; self respect and self responsible is how we maintain an orderly, successful society of proud individuals in cooporation with others. The Obama way leads to disrespect and total welfare-statism and self-loathing.

        • Lewis Munn

          For what it is worth, I as an old person am being sued for a lot of money, over 3 years, because my caregivers told me it was all taken care of with what I signed on in Social Security. And they knew it was not going to be, and they turned my bills in for lawsuit, to take half my SS away. And in the coldest part of the year!

          I do not see that Obamacare will change anything, except the government will just take the money out of my account without any notification or ability to protest. And it appears cost me more since I will have much higher costs before Obamacare even steps in at all.

          Why should I pay more for less under compulsion and threat of fines to take ALL my healthcare away?

          Be interesting if the rest of you folks who like Obamacare find out too it is not at all what is is cracked up to be!

          • Angel Wannabe

            I’m sorry to hear that Lewis, my Dad was sued too for a car accident, in which was his fault, I later found out he was blind in one eye and never told anyone. The party he hit refused medical treatment at the scene and waited to sue Dad, almost two years later for $250,000. The suit went on for 3 years, and the night Dad died, I also received in the mail, a summons telling me I had to have Dad in Philly for a deposition The next morning. I called the attorneys and told them if they wanted to speak to my Father, get a hot line to God, he died last night. I then asked “who really was the victim here” and they had better not contact me again or I’d get my attorney involved!_-I never heard anything after that, that was 7 yeasr ago. I wish you well, Hang in there Buddy you’ll be OK! :)_and God Bless!

      • DaveH

        Let’s see, why is the current system better? Why would it be better if people worked for their healthcare when they could have other people work for their healthcare? Duh! Let me think.

    • JMichael

      please reread: while “end-of-life” counseling became part of Medicare during the Bush admin. the only diff. is O’bamy say’s he’ll throw in a kick-back(bribery?).I don’t rememeber anybody screaming “Death Panels” then. Hypocrits, it’s only “Death Panels” when dem’s are involved, but OK when repub’s are involved? PLEASE, REFUDIATE.

      • Angel Wannabe

        J Michaels, Hey wait a minute, Democratic Congress handed it off to Bush, he vetoed it, but congress passed it anyway.__Hypocrit who???

    • Carole Howell

      JeffH,

      You all act like this is new, this has been going on for years and anyone who has had a family member or friend in Hospice Care knows it. As a matter of fact, since most of the Hospice Care places got Federal funds, under the Bush Admin, Hospice Care providers were told the Government would not pay for more than 8 days for any patient, after that they would have to pick up all the expenses themselves. So those of you who were all told by doctors that your loved one would not last longer than that amount of time and you wondered how it could be predicted, now you know, cause they administered the right drug cocktail to make sure of it.

      • JeffH

        Carole Howell, sorry to dissappoint but I’ve been through the process of a loved one in a hospice. Kaiser, and it was my mom’s predetermined choice, not the doctors or anybody elses to pull the plug…no life support for her. We, as a family, collectively, determined when to end the life support.

    • Kinetic1

      JeffH,
      Read it again. These are not the “death panels” of Sarah Palin, these are end of life counselors. For those of you too out of touch to know it, doctors, nurses and hospice workers have been advising patients for decades (if not longer). Anyone who has seen a cancer patient going through chemotherapy knows just how horrible it can be. Is it worth the pain and cost if it is not likely to succeed? To some people, yes, anything to have just one more day, but not to everyone. And what if you don’t have anyone to call the shots should you be unable? Leave it to Crystal to twist a simple situation into another fear inducing fit for people on this site.

    • JC

      Obama Returns to End-of-Life Plan That Caused Stir

      WASHINGTON — When a proposal to encourage end-of-life planning touched off a political storm over “death panels,” Democrats dropped it from legislation to overhaul the health care system. But the Obama administration will achieve the same goal by regulation, starting Jan. 1.

      In other words, the 2009 charge leveled by former Alaska Governor Sarah Palin and the then-House Minority Leader Boehner that Obama fully intended to set up what Palin termed government “death panels” — panels that Boehner said would set the government on the road to euthanasia — is no longer a charge.

      It’s reality. By executive fiat — in this case a new Medicare rule issued by Obama Medicare chief Dr. Donald Berwick.

      The rest of the article: http://spectator.org/archives/2010/12/28/berwick-sets-up-death-panels-b

  • Jeremy Leochner

    I want to point out to Mr Crystal Death Panels are not and have never been a part of healthcare reform. Though I certainly think the reasoning of monertary gain is wrong I must point out this is counsling and advisment for end to life options. Its not some beuracratic team deciding who lives and dies. Its doctors advising people on the options should they choose to take themselves off life support or any other end of life options. While such an act and what I assume is the reasoning behind it is something I dont feel strongly about I dont want it to be misinterpretated or exageratted as I worry Mr Crystal is doing. Obviously I am a supporter of healthcare reform though I personally disagree with the current laws in effect. To the best of my understanding it offers no public option and from what Ive seen alot of comprimises and watering doen took place before the bill was passed. I think the intention of this was to try and satisfy everyone when I feel it satisfied very few. However I must point out to Mr Crsytal the reason I disagree with and criticize corporate culture is because under the system of privatized healthcare healthcare is treated as product rather then a serivice. In the intrest of obtaining an expansive operation or procedure but requiring an insurance company to help pay the person must plead beg and present their case and yet they can still be denied for things as crazy as leaving out a portion of ones medical history or for so called prexisting conditions. I feel sorry for using the argument I criticized but ultimatly it seems as though right now there are corporate lets say insurance panels decideding who should get coverage and who should be denied. When I call the fire department I dont get a bill from them after or I dont have to call my insurance to cover some massive expense for water use by fire truck or special cost for distance to my house. Yet when it comes to medical matters half the time I hear the question of wether or not someone is covered. Ive seen people who are told that something they thought was covered turned out to be denied and then they were presented with a bill numbering in the hundreds of dollars for a medicine or a procedure that they needed to mantain their health or in some cases keep them alive. I simply feel thats wrong and I believe health reform can fix it. So simply I agree with Mr Crystal that current healthcare laws arent the answer but I ask he not take an extremist view of it as I feel he has.

    • http://NOT Moog

      You write well. I’ll give you that.
      You however you don’t seem to have a deep insight to the Liberal, Communist loving Democrats who are out to destroy this country and, “your life” just for personal gains.
      They now have the camel’s nose in the tent on this, “so called death panel.”
      Soon as the Lemmings get accustomed to it they will implement their next step.
      Ultimate end will be a pill slipped to grandma!
      Sooner or later they will step over the line and the citizens will be forced to invoke the 2nd amendment impeachment process as a last resort.
      They agree with Chairman Mao that political power comes from the barrel of a gun, but go ballistic when someone mentions the 2nd amendment political process.
      As usual it’s lies, deception and two faced.
      Works for them but no one else!
      Hummmmmmm
      Liberals are either traitors by design or worse, STUPIDITY!
      We are not a Democracy you #$#@^$#^#$% fools.
      All Democracies fail via the very process we are watching in this great “REPUBLIC!”

      • Al Sieber

        Good post Moog, I agree.

      • DEBRA ANDERSON

        RIGHT ON MOOG!

      • JeffH

        Hear Hear!

      • Carole Howell

        Moog,
        You are falling for the crap the people who seek to divide put out. Your argument is not intelligent.

    • Jo Ann

      Have you ever heard of “spell check”, Mr.Leochner?

      • Jeremy Leochner

        Your right I should have been more carful with my spelling and grammer. I apologize. And you know I was wondering when someone would point my mistakes out. Thanks Jo Ann

        • http://none Mike

          Jeremy, I am bad about it too. Its just more poor typing skills for me and sometimes my mind outruns the fingers ability to type. So dont feel bad I have seen and probly typed worse lol. Mike L.

        • Carole Howell

          Jeremy,
          When all they can do is attack your spelling, you know that is all they have.

    • Scruffy

      You are dead wrong. The death panels are real and in YOUR future. They (the brain dead leftist bureaucrats) are writing up more regulations to define “accepted protocols”. This is the way that Dr.s will be FORCED to treat all patients with specific symptoms. Failure to follow these protocols will result in six figure fines for first offense and worse thereafter. In their mind equal means that there are no individuals and no differences from patient to patient. As if we are all clones.

      Then there is the formula from the left: that to allocate health resources (health care rationing), in effect, the older you are the less likely it will be that you get ANY treatment it the treatment is expensive or requires a hard to come by resource (like a donated organ). Welcome to Obumma Care.

      • Jeremy Leochner

        Im not sure if thats “the lefts” formula Scruffy. Though I will tell you its not mine. I feel we should use tax dollars to pay for healthcare the same way we pay for police forces or fire departments or more specifically healthcare for United States soldiers. Healthcare for soldiers is universal and government funded. Im not saying all people deserve the same status as our brave warriors but I do think if we can create a system that can effectively administer care to soldiers I think we can create a system for all Americans. And as to your argument about seniors being left out your right. With tax dollars inevitabley there will be a finite amount of resources to allocate. But thats why I support private companies being mantained. They will be used to provide service to those whose particular aliments or conditions don’t get a large amount of funding. And in the mean time with more people getting coverage and service from government funded facilities all around the country insurance companies will have an easier time providing coverage to their somewhat reduced list of customers. And perhaps yes there may be an established protocol for how to allocate service but it will be in the same way police and fire departments have protocols for how to handle the services they provide. I assure you Scruffy what I want to have is a system where the government funds healthcare, but not one where they have absolute control. If we can have police and fire departments that can’t and don’t decide who to save then I think we can have a healthcare system that dosen’t have death panels. I don’t believe any system be it government funded or private insurance is perfect. Under both there will be people who fall through the cracks and that is wrong. However I think a system that focuses mainly on government funding while making use of private insurance as “insurance” to help those the government can’t help is a better system then our current one. And I believe whatever problems such a system will have will be easier to fix then the ones we have now.

      • Carole Howell

        Scruffy,
        Read my longer post up above. That is what you get when you have health care for profit. It has been going on for years and years now. Where have you been?

    • Rich

      The greater majority of Americans agree with you, by knowing that healthcare must be reformed. The present plan however, is not acceptable. It will only create class warfare and rob from Peter to pay Paul (another ponzi scheme), while allowing the political class to totally avoid the calamities of the electorate. The plan is so bad, that the political class want no part of it for themselves. This in itself tells a person all he/she needs to know.
      I don’t think you understand the nature of beaurocracies when they become entrenched in government, the individual for whom they were created becomes inferior to the survival of the beaurocracy, so the downward spiral continues until the electorate says enough, or the political class creates another new crisis with a political solution, that continues the perpetual cycle without a solution until the next crisis. This is the very nature of government beaurocracy, we have the history to prove it.
      Mr Crystal is way ahead of you because he is looking ahead at the whole picture, he is only stating the reality of what will evolve if this debacle is allowed to stand.
      That being said, there are better solutions out there, in getting health care costs under control.

    • Nuts

      Jeremy you said (To the best of my understanding )reading your comment It’s quite obvious you don’t understand at all. You probably voted for Obama to?

      • Jeremy Leochner

        Yes I did

    • meteorlady

      So my cousin lives in Canada – had a life threatening accident. He was told that he would have to wait 7 months for required surgery because he was in a percentile where surgery may not work. He died…..

      • hflashman

        So much for charities or relatives paying for the surgery instead leaving him to have to rely on his own. Must be nice to have those kind of relatives and/or charities everyone hear speaks about being available eh?

        So you’re saying the Canadian Health Care System was to blame becuse of ….why exactly?

        • ValDM

          Healthcare rationing? Which in turn leads to………..

        • hflashman

          So Val…instead of having basic care available and ability to supplement with private insurance…you’d rather there not be any basics available at all? Interesting.

          • JC

            I pay for my own and my family’s…why should I pay for any one else’s?

        • JC

          Waiting lists in Canada fot things like MRI’s can be as much as 6 months. Hip and knee replacements..years. Basic cataract surgeries 16 to 18 months.
          People in Calgary, arguably the wealthiest city in Canada have been phoning 911…from “inside” the EMR’s.
          It’s hallway medicine and it’s due to collapse as more Doctors and Nurse’s are retiring (early) and are not being replaced.
          There is no enticement for new Doctors and Nurse’s in a Socialist system.

          • eddie47d

            There is no incentive in America either. So that blows your theory about socialism. Doctors are leaving here also because they can make more money in specialized medicine ,not family practice. We are also hiring nurses from all over the world and paying them well. Why don’t Americans like to work should be your question??

          • JC

            I stated no theories eddie. I stated facts. The end result of this socialist system will be a complete collapse…another fact.

      • Karolyn

        So what is wrong with death in the first place?

        • Angel Wannabe

          K, We’re born we live and then die. Its pretty cut and dry, except when complications set in as in my mothers case. She was told whe was going to die at 11 and another 14 times, we were called to the hospital with doctors saying, she wouldn’t make the night and went on to live for additional 66 years. She died almost 77. What do you do in that kind of situation???__It was obvious God WAS NOT ready for her yet?!

      • Dick Gazinia

        JC-

        Any real American patriot recognizes that we live in a complex, pluralistic society comprises of people who have a wide range of intellects, abilities, and limitations. Those who are capable of thriving as a result of their native talents, energy, and a modicum of luck should be pleased to help those less capable. Just as no moral person would think of letting a child starve or suffer cold without clothing and shelter, no moral person should have any compunction about helping those who, for whatever reason, have not progressed to prosperity.

        Some use rigid political philosophy as an excuse for selfishness. Jesus never asked a person in need for a passport, an insurance card, a language test, or a single coin in payment. Good Christians should look a little deeper into themselves and see if they really understand the teachings of the Messiah… especially at this time of year when we celebrate His birth. Of all the great religious figures in the history of our planet only two ever changed the way millions of people think for the better without the use of a single weapon, Jesus Christ and the Buddha. Only one sacrificed Himself for the salvation of all humanity and proved through his resurrection that there is indeed another plane of existence beyond this mortal world.

        It would do all Christians well to engage in self-examination and discover how much genuine charity they feel for fellow humans and our planet.

        I am delighted that some of my tax money goes to help the less fortunate… even those frequently dismissed here as lazy welfare recipients. My mother was a welfare worker and not one of her “clients” led a life that anyone with a modicum of self sufficiency. I would rather see my tax money helping the laziest of these than fund another pointless war.

        I fought in Southeast Asia and saw many on both sides die. Now Viet Nam, Laos, and Cambodia are tourist destinations. We buy products from there. We could have skipped the war and done this in the first place. My friends are still dead and the blood on my hands on behalf of lunatic government policies won’t wash off… what did it prove?

        Many here cite the need to bring the teachings of Jesus back into our lives. I agree – but I ask that you look deeper… beyond the present day rhetoric, and try to discover for yourselves what His timeless teachings really meant.

        • JC

          Ok, I’ll rephrase the statement.
          “I pay for my own and my family’s health care…why should I be forced at gunpoint to pay for anyone else’s?”

          All of your rhetoric still amounts to nothing more than theft for the common good. And it doesn’t creat a common good…it creates a cancer that will never be cured in the form of socialism. Socialism is parasitic in nature and can not live without a host. And it always…ALWAYS kills its host.

          And how dare you insinuate that I am selfish. You don’t know me and you don’t know what I do with my money to help people…
          OF MY OWN FREE WILL!
          Stick your commie BS where the sun don’t shine…Dick!

          • Dick Gazinia

            Your selfishness comes through loud and clear. How dare YOU call me a commie you piece of fecal matter. You want me to shove something? You had better check with your insurance company to see if they cover a plexiotomy… the implantation of a plexiglass window in the abdomen… so people whose heads are crammed in their colons can see.

          • JC

            So when I stand on the principle of property rights and freedom of choice…you call it selfishness.
            Sorry moron, but that is a commie tactic and you are blatantly obvious.
            I’ll keep doing the charity work that I do OF MY OWN FREE WILL.
            And you can keep on arrogantly judging people as selfish for not fitting into your communist mold.

          • Dick Gazinia

            the attitude reflected in your answers say it all

          • eddie47d

            Playing that commie card again JC. If nothing else works bring that up!

          • JC

            You pair of morons are hilarious.
            You continuously overlook one glaring fact.
            I have a right to my own property.
            I don’t care whether you wrap it in a cross or a flag…
            you’re advocating theft for the “common good” That’s communism.

            I will continue to put about 20 kids a year through school and you two can go down on each other for the “common good” for all I care.

  • Effin Reed Tard

    Whatever happen to life extension ? This is the 21st century !! Life Expectancy should be going up to past 100 years….

    End of life counseling ? So as long as we can talk things out, that makes it OK to murder. Unbelievable ! Yet this is the present reality.

    Talk about a new bureaucracy ! Get a high paying government job in exit counseling ..

    I hope people, by the end of this century, will live well past 120 years olds. 120 will be the new 60 … It’s possible in a free society. Technology can make a big difference for all of us. Think of what men/women can achieve if they just lived and extra 5 – 6 decades, and in good health. We are just children dieing so early in out 70′s and 80′s !!!

    Big government is literally killing us.

    But those politicians, who have a genetic gift of persuasion, are just plain stupid on everything else !

    • http://none Mike

      Effin, Its hard to live that long being fed poisions and chemicals every day. And if you do want to live that long stay the hell away from doctors. They are really good at feeding you chemical posions that are guised in FDA approved medicens. Mike L.

      • Shibamom

        I agree Mike! All doctors do is push more meds onto people and all the meds do is make you more unhealthy!

        • JC

          And it shouldn’t surprise anyone that Big Pharma is the single largest lobby in DC. No wonder they get away with poisoning us.

          • eddie47d

            Big Pharma is just another group of big Corporations with billionaire CEO’s who have been robbing us blind for quit some time. In other words it’s more unregulated Capitalism. I’m happy to see some are finally waking up to the sinister behavior of those behind these Corporate empires. There’s more than Big Government manipulating us from behind the curtain. Sadly, most of Big Pharma and those in the Private Healthcare realm are still finding new ways to nail us.

          • JC

            eddie47d says:
            December 30, 2010 at 10:31 am
            Big Pharma is just another group of big Corporations with billionaire CEO’s who have been robbing us blind for quit some time. In other words it’s more unregulated Capitalism
            ____________________________________________________________________

            eddie, you come SO close to hitting the nail on the head…but miss by just enough to, well, miss.
            “Regulated Capitalism” isn’t Capitalism…it’s Government mandated command economics.

            Capitalism is by definition unregulated, or it just isn’t capitalism.
            What we have is a situation where what should be private industry subject to laws of justice is all cozied up to government and is not subject to justice.

            If we want this to change, we get them out of each other’s bed and make price fixing and “convenient law making” reprehensible and subject to severe penalty.
            The answer to a problem that already exists because of government involvement is NOT more government.

            And don’t forget everyone who owns a store or business is a capitalist.

      • http://none Mike

        Eddie, We only have to watch TV about and hour a day to see it on parade. Thats why I think the FDA as currently comprised. Is usless at best or deadly at worst. Mike L.

        • Pete NY “R I P FEDERAL RESERVE BANK”

          I pray that Wikileaks exposes the communiques between the FDA and Big Pharma

          • http://none Mike

            Pete, I bet it would look like a can of worms dumped on hot ashes when they started to try to run away from the implications of it. We could only hope to catch them before they ran away.

            Another fun leak might be the true intentions of groups like the TSA HS. About the dupe and control tactics being perpetrated on us. Mike L.

      • JUKEBOX

        For many years, I have said: “DOCTORS BURY THEIR MISTAKES”. I have searched every inch of my body, and I have yet to find an expiration date. I also wonder if any of those members of Congress, that have served more years than a lot of people have lived, have had any paid doctor end of life counseling. They really need some “END OF POLITICAL LIFE COUNSELING”.

    • meteorlady

      Life expectancy is getting shorter. It’s because of all the crap they add to the water, then add in the hormones, anti-biotics and other crap that they feed the cattle and pigs. Chickens live out their short lives in small cages unable to stand and are given measured amounts of food. When they are at a certain weight the bottom drops out of the cage and they are processed without killing them first. A lot of pigs brought to slaughter houses can’t even walk and cattle are routinely slaughtered even though they can’t walk or are sick.

      Most all of our food supply is now handled by large corporations and by the time they are done processing the food it’s got virtually no nutritional value, only a lot of artificial color and chemicals to make them last longer. I think I read something like 5 corporations control the majority of our food supply. The FDA is worthless and in the pocket of these corporations. I buy from local ranchers and farmers to keep from getting these highly processed foods. I even have bought non-pasteurized milk and it’s wonderful.

      Most vitamin and mineral supplements on the market today don’t contain the amounts they say they do and still they are sold with this false advertising. Our air quality in cities is getting worse and not much is being done about that either.

    • Karolyn

      No, it won’t be technology that extends lives, Effin, it will be educating people on how to take care of their bodies and not use technology in the form of drugs.

  • Harold

    Just leave it to some nut case to explain that, “this is just conseling”. Sure Hitler had that in his system also, It was called Dr. mengle! We get all bent out of shape over animal abuse ( and I don’t think anyone should abuse animals) And we talk about helpng people to end it all because they are sick. The real sickos are those who passed this monstrosity of a health care? bill in the first place. Hiel Obama!

    • hflashman

      Harold…what turns a person to lower themselves to a semi animal state where they encourage and support ideas which are decidedly encouraging keeping people from knowledge and education how to ease pain, suffering, and setting up for an obvious end of their life? What makes you into such being where you can state the lunacy encouraging that?

      Ever have a dear loved one dying of bone cancer/ Ever watch the day to day pain that wracks thier bodies, feeling not only helpless, but not knowing what to do? Ever hear the screams and the questions? Ever walk around the room to make sure there is nothing available which the person could use in an attempt to kill themselves..perhaps failing and thus creating a more painful non existence?

      Death Panels…bah. They are Life Panels.

      But back to my question…what turns a person into such a semi animal state where they cheer on keeping people uneducated, in pain and suffering from a terminal illness with a future ahead of them filled with fear of the unknown and having no other option but to lay there day after day writhing and screaming in front of their loved ones??

      • eddie47d

        Excellent Flashman; Those who want folks to have an unnatural death (tubes,morphine and other chemicals) which prolongs their suffering is rather odd.There is no sanctity in life about that and rather morbid. Some people are torn up about letting their loved ones go but hopefully they aren’t doing it for themselves or from the fear of dying themselves.There is nothing noble about prolonging death unless it is the explicit wish of the person dying.

      • JeffH

        My question is what turns people like you, HFlash, to become Marxists and communists?

        • Mediawatcher

          Ah, name-calling and ad-hominem attacks. The last refuge of those who can make no legitimate argument.

          • meteorlady

            So what exactly is your valid argument for the government to step into my life and tell me what I should do at the end of my life or that of my mother? We have made the decisions in a rational and private manner – it’s called freedom of choice. If my mother wants to go out living as long as she can THAT’S HER RIGHT!

          • Mediawatcher

            There is no valid argument for that. You all are the ones saying that’s what’s going to happen, but so far you’ve provided exactly no supporting evidence.

          • JeffH

            Media matters, if the shoe fits then wear it!

          • JC

            Calling a thing by its correct name is not “name calling”.
            It’s “identifying”.

          • Angel Wannabe

            Media watcher, would you care to explain why then, Obama and his band of Merry Thieves, campaigned so hard that “People were literally dying in the streets with out health care”? Now that Obamacare has passed, what are the dying going to do until 2014, wait to die until then?? Remember “we had to pass the bill, in order to read it”

          • eddie47d

            Then I guess we can all use derogatory name calling then if the master of bull (Jeff) can throw it around like cow dung. Jeff’s continuous use of those certain flavorful words is one of those “last refuge of a scroundrel”. He lies,hate,belittles,mixes fact with fiction,distorts then supports many extremism’s-then denies he ever said them. He does throw in a couple of excellent comments then immediately resorts to throwing in negative connotations in his next comment. He’s a slick one with that commie card ;for he knows it will make him a friend with his fellow travelers. After awhile you kind of ignore him so if that shoe fits Jeff …wear it.

          • JeffH

            …and yet when asked to expose my lies, if there is an answer, it is nothing more than pure liberal drivel from the individual challenged to do so. For the hundredth plus time, I say prove it and I’ll retract it, otherwise keep the liberal drivel flowing.

          • Angel Wannabe

            Mediawatcher, I provided a link!_Its your choice whether you believe it or not!

          • eddie47d

            Then prove that mediawatcher or hFlash is a communist. You can’t Jeff so you keep on lying.

      • Robert Smith

        From hflashman: “what turns a person into such a semi animal state where they cheer on keeping people uneducated, in pain and suffering from a terminal illness with a future ahead of them filled with fear of the unknown and having no other option but to lay there day after day writhing and screaming in front of their loved ones??”

        The same people who get off on the pain they inflicted through the inquisitions, the same people who trumped up the Crusades, the same people who want you to breed, breed, and breed some more, but you have to do it the way they tell you to in the missionary position…

        It’s organized religion that has been screwing up humanity for acouple of thousand years.

        BTW assisted suicide is working just fine in Oregon after they voted on it TWICE but Ashcroft tried to stop it. So much for states’ rights.

        Rob

        Rob

        • hflashman

          Rob … I agree (except it’s not “assisted suicide”, no one is “assisting’ anyone in their decision … it’s “Death With Dignity” which EVERYONE should have at the end …

          • http://none Mike

            flash, One Huge reason I nither approve of or would ever do the death with dignaty thing is this. As sure as I took the shot the day after the cure would be announced. And as far as that goes large doses of morphine have pretty much the same effect as the suicide machines of Kavorkian. It allows the terminally ill to pass without pain. Mike L.

          • hflashman

            Mike..and such is your option. No problem with that. What is animalistic is people like JC and Meteor stating you shouldn’t have that option available and that their views…however derived…should be the ones controlling all. In other words…no option for you to make an independent informed choice.

          • JC

            Wrong Flashman. My view is that my life and my death are none of the Government’s damned business, period. And forcing me to pay for others to have cradle to grave security is about as unConstitutional as it gets. It’s Theft, plain and simple.
            You can stick your twisted logic where Obama’s sun don’t shine.

        • Pete NY “R I P FEDERAL RESERVE BANK”

          I am 100 percent for States’ Rights and pro small Federal Gov. Therefore, I am appalled that Ashcroft did what you say. For a long time now the Federal gov. has made a mess of our country, even before L. Johnson’s civil rights fiasco and forced integration of southern schools. Long live States’ Rights. If Oregon chooses to be a Death with Dignity State, I support it because the people desired it. And if a state chooses something you don’t like, you should support it also because that’s what the voters choose. Lets all agree that the Federal Gov. is intrusive and must be curtailed severely. Lets try to find a common ground where liberals and conservatives can break bread together.

      • meteorlady

        Who appointed you to take care of me? That means you – and the government that you support. I can make my own life decisions and have done so in a little thing called a Living Will. The decisions that I have made in that little document are MINE and they are my personal business. I will choose who to share that with and I don’t choose to have the government meddling in my life or that of my family. That’s the bottom line here – it’s called freedom, but that seems to be a foreign concept to some here.

        • Mediawatcher

          Actually, no, but don’t let the facts get in the way of a good rant. No requirements, only the opportunity for everyone to exercise the same freedom you have.

  • Sandra Lee Smith

    As is pointed out, it’s ONE thing to have an option for sound minded folks to choose to forgo additional suffering, and quite another to have them pressured into making rash decisions, which are apt to be based on false information as well, that most wouldn’t recognize as such, not having the background to know, simply to meet the government’s budget limits, which THEY are the cause of in the first place! I personally left advance directives years ago about my own life, based on sound knowledge. But the worst is that some panel in DC will be making the decisions about what treatments MAY or MAY NOT be offered/provided by doctors, and that doesn’t even allow the patient or the doctor any choice in the issue at all! So it won’t really matter what choices the individual makes, or the doctor advises; that bunch in DC will be making all the choices in any case, unless we get the entirety of Obamacare REPEALED or DEFUNDED and stopped COLD!

    • hflashman

      Sandra…just exactly where in any of the past proposals or ths current regulation which states someone is going to decide life or death for the termially ill ? IT DOESN’T EXIST ! Get a life. Better yet, get the facts.

      • meteorlady

        How many stories have you heard about people getting denied a procedure because their insurance won’t pay? If the government is in charge will not that also happen? I can’t or won’t understand why you believe that it’s a government function to council me or my family on anything? Most doctors, upon entering the hospital inquire about advance directives or medical directive. I have even had them hand me the paperwork when my mother was in emergency. They didn’t council, nor did they recommend, they just passed on the literature and left it at that.

        • hflashman

          I believe there should be an avenue for educaiton and giving of counselling for those who choose to seek such because, amongst other reasons…I’d hate to have someone like you as a relative making any decisions whatsoever on my life and decisions affecting it …

    • Robert Smith

      Sandra says: “simply to meet the government’s budget limits, which THEY ”

      Yup, and private corporations are BY DEFINITION are there to MAKE MONEY. Some top executive needs a new ski rack for his Audi… Another procedure cut so he can get a bonus.

      Sheesh, why isn’t anyone concerned about the greedy money grubers we are currently putting our “faith” in?

      Rob

  • http://none Mike

    This is really starting to remind me of the old TV series Logans Run. If you want to live past a certin age its time to go on the lamb. Sooner or later thoes death panels will be looking at the over 60 crowd and saying its your time whether you are sick or not. And just think of all the money Uncle Sam will save just in case you might have gotten sick over the age of 59. Then we can start moving that age down a little every year as long as you will accept it all in the name of good health of course. Mike L.

    • ValDM

      Mike,
      They won’t have an age limit like 60. They already have a comprehensive list of people to get “counseling”. There are those who are disabled and receiving SS for their disability. THOSE people will be the first for this grand new experiment. Get rid of the disabled and we don’t have to pay them anymore, nor do we have to SEE them anymore.

      • http://none Mike

        Valdm, Eugnics. :) Yes I got your point there perfectly.This new health care plan would have made Hitler proud. All the open ended wording in it allows for all kinds of interpratation.Also the Fabians would have been all for it if they still existed. Oh oops :) Mike L.

        • eddie47d

          Some of those interpretations have been mis-interpreted by Ben himself.

      • LeRoy Z.

        YIKES!! I became disabled about a year and a half ago and I’m 59. I sure am not ready for any ‘counseling’ though!!

    • jimster

      You got it right. Finalizing my plans to move to Panama.
      Good place to retire. US trained doctors good hospitals. Good intrastructure. Very little govt intervention.

      • Mediawatcher

        The Panama with public universal health care? That Panama?

        • jimster

          The Constitution of Panama establishes that safeguarding the health of the population of the Republic is an essential function of the State and affirms that, as part of the community, an individual is entitled to the promotion, protection, preservation, restoration, and rehabilitation of health, and also has an obligation to preserve it.

          “preserve it” can’t get that here.

          • Mediawatcher

            Read the sentence again. “[A]n individual … also has an obligation to preserve it.” That’s individual responsibility for maintaining your health, my friend, not some governmental obligation to do it for you. So in Panama, you do your part and the universal public healthcare system will do its part. I understand why that would be attractive.

          • eddie47d

            That sure is ironic.

    • Robert Smith

      Hi Mike,

      If you look carefuly are the “ray guns” in the Logan’s Run program they are High Standards with a muzzle break.

      Rob

      • http://none Mike

        Just used it to make a point Robert, They say science fiction becomes science fact at some point. We see it in our every day lives now. This is one fiction I wouldent want to see become Fact though. Mike L.

        • Al Sieber

          Mike, who knows what weapons the Govt. has.

  • Sgt William Wheeler

    Ben Crystal has gotten it wrong as usual. There is no Death Panel. There is end of life counseling which gives someone who has a disease or injury which is terminal, options. They can continue medicine or treatment in hopes their situation will change. Or they can be taken off life support. Or they can stop treatment. My Dad chose to stop treatment for Pancreatic Cancer. At present there is no cure. And although in some cases it can go into remission, in Dads case he was too far gone. We had no answers. He decided based on options that were given him by the health care provider. He was given ALL options and not pressured. Lets face it a health care provider does not make money from a deceased person. The only person a dying person is going to talk to about options is someone who is provided by the hospital (by law it has to be someone who is trained in medicine or psychology), or the Doctor themselves. The hospital rep talked to him about continuing the meds but reluctantly agreed that there was no cure or remission in sight, and the pain would only get worse and eventually no relief would be available. When the time came all feeding, oxygen tubes were withdrawn and we gathered to say goodbye. Dad thanked the doctor who was by his side holding his hand and I held the other. He died peacefully. Thank god for Dads military health care because it pays for end of life counseling.

    • Scruffy

      “My Dad chose..” You had better hope that your dad keeps that ability to choose. The radical left does not wish it so.

    • http://NOT Moog

      You’re a sick puppy bud.
      I’m sorry for your loss and I’m glad your Father died peacefully and without suffering.
      I’m a vet also and I’m going to end my suffering when the time comes.
      Yes I have been very close a couple of times.
      Fortunately I was pulled back from the brink by a good Surgeon once and another Dr. the other time.
      Was I in enough pain to consider ending it. YES!
      I guess now I would be counseled to end it instead of living another twelve years of productive life which I have accomplished so far.
      So far I have managed to help several unfortunate young women/men get to college and in almost all cases to complete the education they would not have gotten if I had ended it back in 1994, the first time I reached the limit of suffering I could tolerate!

      The only death panels we need are for Communists and traitors!
      We have fought Communists in many countries! All in the name of protecting this great Republic from them.
      Dammit we need to eradicate them here first!
      By that I mean exterminate! How’s that for ending suffering?

      • Angel Wannabe

        Well said Moog!

      • JeffH

        Moog, I too have been pulled back from the brink and mt mother passed on, but it was her choice and her families, not some bureaucrats.

        “…advise patients on options for end-of-life care, which may include advance directives to forego aggressive life-sustaining treatment.”

        “DIRECTIVES” di·rec·tive (d-r k t v, d-) n. An order or instruction, especially one issued by a central authority.

        Makes it a lot clearer doesn’t it?

        • Angel Wannabe

          JeffH, I had advanced directives set up too, for both my parents before they died. The one thing I remember being told by the doctor about the directives, that either I as POA, or my parents if able to make a clear decision, could change the directives AT ANY TIME. I don’t know whats in store in the future now.

      • hflashman

        No Moog…you wouldn’t have been counseled to ‘end it”. Add to that…(note the word “add’)… you weren’t terminally diagnsed so you wouldn’t have any information or education on what to do as life neared the end.

        What’s the next wacked statement you’d like countered?

      • Karolyn

        Jeff, “Advise” is the important word here

        • JeffH

          Karolyn, I respectfully beg to differ…”which may include “ADVANCE DIRECTIVES” to forego aggressive life-sustaining treatment.”

          • Karolyn

            Advance directives coming from the patient.

    • http://none Mike

      Wonderful story and sorry for your loss. But this point has to be made. Do you when the time comes want that choice. Or do you want that choice made for you by someone else in a back room? If you cant see that this is about one of the most basic human rights Life then you are blind and trusting.Please think about your post and see that your dad was allowed to make that choice where others might have wanted to fight on. And that basic choice is going to be taken from them. Mike L.

      • eddie47d

        Sgt. William’s dad died willingly,peacefully and within a government program(hospital). Nothing to fear from his experience and those same choices are made everyday in private hospitals and with private Doctors. Private hospitals make those “death panel” decisions too but you won’t see that in their glossy brochures. I’m sure most Doctors are professionals who make every effort to help someone. Yet they know the reality of death and help patients make that final decision. Are these Private Doctors and hospital administrators evil people when they are doing the same things that you deplore and rail against?

        • http://none Mike

          Eddie, Where I fear its going though is this. Even if the patient wants to continue to fight . The care needed to sustain that fight may eventually be denied because of cost decisions made by someone other than the doctor and the family.

          Not so long ago My father passed away in a nurseing home . Near the end we were asked to let them use a feeding tube. We as a family did not want this but it was forced upon us by the caregivers there in fear of a lawsuit. Now that seems to be going the other way.

          Second example is a friend of mine from highschool. Was hit from behind and pushed out in front of a tractortrailor. In the accident nearly every bone in his body was broken includeing his skull which was fractured in 7 places. The doctors when talking to the family said he would not live out the night. The family asked the doctors to do all the could to save him. In 2 months when he was still in a coma they declared him brain dead. 1 month later he woke up. Then they were told he would never function again 5 months later he was walking on a walker. The doctors were wrong on all accounts. They can not determin a persons will to live or gods determination of when you are to go. If this was to happen today. Would he have survived? And that was nearly 20 years ago now and he walks talks fishes and functions as well as you or I. Mike L.

          • Mediawatcher

            Mike, both of your stories make the point that clear advance directives would have been of great benefit. If your father had had a directive not to use a feeding tube there would have been no fear of a lawsuit on the part of the nursing home in acceding to his wishes. And your high school friend might well have had a directive to take all measures, or no measures, but either way it would have been HIS wishes that directed his care. That’s all we’re talking about here — making sure everyone has an opportunity to make his or her wishes clear.

          • http://none Mike

            Media, From the way you make it sound in your former post though. You seem to be in full support of this healthcare plan as written. These laws may eventually override the power of attorney that you have made out in such wishes. Me I do not support either the goverment option or the health insurance option. Both of these in my eyes raise the cost of medical treatment to levels that have become un affordable to the generai public. I am of the opinion the less second and third party meddling in a market the better. We have seen over the years how well the goverment handles the responsibility its had to social security.And other goverment run insurance plans. They are rife with waste and fraud to the tune of billions of dollars.

            I know a little of what I speak because I was employed in the medical service industry.For about 5 years before the company I worked for finally got caught at their fraud. Just one small company was hit with 4 million in fraud and misshandled claims.So no I do not trust this to be managed any better. It will only standerdise how much fraud and waste will be tolarated. Not fix the problems.Mike L.

    • Angel Wannabe

      SWW__Been through a dying loved one, have ya?

    • Kim

      You’re talking in the present, Sgt., not about what is going to be imposed on us once Obamacare is implemented. Things will change…

    • DeJay

      The government run FDA, the AMA and the pharma companies are going to make sure not too many people will hear about the many cancer cures that DO NOT REQUIRE CHEMO, RADIATION OR SURGERY but cheap alternatives. Alternative treatments do not have any bad adverse side effects. Patrick Swazye was apprised of the benefits of alternatives but he refused them and now he is DEAD! He could have continued the cancer treatments along with the alternative w/o any set backs from alternatives. He has to be considered a jackass.

      • eddie47d

        … and you knew his suffering and what was best for his situation? Maybe you are the jackazz or want to play God or are you a Doctor of great knowledge?

  • http://aol.com sean murrey

    it seems they want us older folk to die off.

    • Teresa

      They do…unless you are fit for a ARMY, a wealthy ELITE you will be expendable…end of story. Wake up people!

    • Pete NY “R I P FEDERAL RESERVE BANK”

      Bingo, grandpa. Economic statistics show that the US can’t pay its retirement obligations as presently constructed. Cash flow went negative this year, September, seven years earlier than previously estimated. Solution: quickly reduce the number of recipients. This callous disregard for human dignity and robbing Peter to pay Paul is the hallmark of our liberal/neocon establishment. It cares not for the unborn who will bear the brunt of massive taxation and hyperinflation, nor the elderly who trusted the social security scheme for many decades. BTW, GW Bush was a liberal. Did you hear any politician in DC saying lets cut the Federal Budget? cut the Federal wage base? Take a pay cut?

  • Rich Frank

    You people are ALL missing the point. Obamacare is just another step in the USA towards reducing the overall population of the globe. The World Elitists have determined that a world population of about 500,000,000 is all that can be sustained for the future of this planet. Just think about the genocide actions that have taken place in other parts of the world and you will get an idea of what is going on. Wake up and quit bickering about local Dem/Progressive actions. It is bigger than any political party affiliation. Have a nice day.

    • http://NOT Moog

      Where did you come up with the number, 500 Million?
      Here is the running populaton from a Linear regression on the world populatin.
      07/01/10 6,852,472,823
      08/01/10 6,858,904,297
      09/01/10 6,865,335,772
      10/01/10 6,871,559,780
      11/01/10 6,877,991,255
      12/01/10 6,884,215,263
      01/01/11 6,890,646,738
      02/01/11 6,897,078,213
      03/01/11 6,902,887,287
      04/01/11 6,909,318,762
      05/01/11 6,915,542,770
      06/01/11 6,921,974,245
      07/01/11 6,928,198,253
      Your number 500,000,000
      is a drastic population cut.
      Here ya go: 02/01/11 6,897,078,213
      Less 500,000,000
      ————–
      Wow! 6,397,078,213
      From almost 7 billion to only 500 Million.
      Yes the Earth is over populated but even those Liberal jerks wouldn’t think we need to reduce the population by: 6,397,078,213,, OR WOULD THEY?

      • http://none Mike

        Moog, Yea it would take something along the lines of an astroid impact or one of the super caldaras going up to achive thoes kind of numbers. No man made disaster would reduce the numbers fast enough. Mike L

        • Average Joe

          Mike,
          Think…. Steven King’s “The Stand” and the recent “world wide pandemics”….along with “vaccinations”….if the new genetically modified foods, virus’s and vaccinations don’t get you…those who survive will be the fittest and therefore eligible to perform labor for the elite…in one of those new “family camps” run by FEMA…you know…the ones that don’t exist…..Just saying….it would not take a asteroid impact….to reduce the population to 500 million….just a nice little engineered virus….a plague…something so small that you cannot even see it……food for thought.

          • http://none Mike

            Joe, Yea this is true.But in The Stand that backfired against the very same establishment that created it. I dont know how much they are willing to gamble on that at the moment unless they are total idiots and assume it wouldent immediatly mutate. Aside from the fact that I think more might survive than you think I know I have plans as well as other outthere that include some form of biological survival.

            Just saying it would be hard to meet that goal of 500mil without some major natural disaster to aid in attaining it.

            I personally would be more worried about a natural disaster than a man made one. Other than the oil spill in the gulf. That one isnt nearly over or contained. That may become the largest man made disaster ever. If what I have read and seen about the gulf current is true. Mike L.

          • Average Joe

            Just stating that..it could happen… since we all know that biological warfare has been going on for several decades. While it make take more than one type of biological “strain” to accomplish the job…it is still entirely feasble. Do not forget that in “the Stand”…Mr. King wrote it that way….to have good triumph over evil….In the real world, it most likely won’t happen that way (backfiring on the Government)….it will most likely be developed…those in the “know” will be vaccinated against …and then the released on the world stage….While this is just a scenario…it is an entirely possible and do-able scenario.

          • http://none Mike

            Joe, You can vaccinate all you want but once a strain is out its the genie out of the bottel. Natural mutations negate vaccines sometimes even while said vaccines are being developed. If we were to try that. The best way to do that would be to slip something in the vaccine that would steralise the person vaccinated.

            There was a movie about that sometime back though I forget the name of it. Everyone got the vaccination and it was found later that the side effect was sterlization. They had to continue to clone the remnents of humanity. To prevent our extention. Eventually it was found that the cloned people were beggining to be able to reproduce. But to continue to control the population the goverment killed anyone that could breed. Mike L.

      • Al Sieber

        500 million is on the Georgia Guidestones.

      • JeffH

        Moog, check out what Bill Gates thinks about reducing the worlds population…you just might be surprised what he says and thinks about population control.

        • Angel Wannabe
          • JeffH

            Yepper!

          • JeffH

            Angel, I guess Bill Gates contribution to reducing CO2 is his belief in eugenics or population control. In a recent conference in California, Gates reveals a less public agenda of his philanthropy—population reduction, otherwise known as eugenics.

            Along with the scientifically absurd proposition of reducing manmade CO2 emissions worldwide to zero by 2050, approximately four and a half minutes into the talk, Gates declares, “First we got population. The world today has 6.8 billion people. That’s headed up to about 9 billion. Now if we do a really great job on new vaccines, health care, reproductive health services, we lower that by perhaps 10 or 15 percent.” In plain English, one of the most powerful men in the world states clearly that he expects vaccines to be used to reduce population growth. Reduce the population and you’ll reduce CO2 emmissions.

            The primary focus of his multi-billion dollar Gates Foundation is vaccinations, especially in Africa and other underdeveloped countries.
            Now that sounds like noble philanthropic work. The problem is that the vaccine industry has been repeatedly caught dumping dangerous—meaning unsafe because untested or proven harmful—vaccines onto unwitting Third World populations when they cannot get rid of the vaccines in the West.

            In the aftermath of the most recent unnecessary Pandemic declaration of a global H1N1 swine flu emergency, industrial countries were left sitting on hundreds of millions of doses of untested vaccines. They decided to get rid of the embarrassing leftover drugs by handing them over to the WHO which in turn plans to dump them for free on select poor countries. France has given 91 million of the 94 million doses the Sarkozy government bought from the pharma giants; Britain gave 55 million of its 60 million doses. The story for Germany and Norway is similar.

            Many vaccines, especially multi-dose vaccines that are made more cheaply for sale to the Third World, contain something called Thimerosal (Thiomersol in the EU), a compound (sodium ethylmercurithiosalicylate), containing some 50% mercury, used as a preservative.

            In July 1999 the US’ National Vaccine Information Center declared in a press release that, “The cumulative effects of ingesting mercury can cause brain damage.” The same month, the American Academy of Pediatrics (AAP) and the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) alerted the public about the possible health effects associated with thimerosal-containing vaccines. They strongly recommended that thimerosal be removed from vaccines as soon as possible.

          • Angel Wannabe

            JeffH, I’m pretty much convinced that with genuis, insanity is not far behind. I often think of Dupont, for all the good and intellect he’s had and done, he eventually went off the deep end too.

        • eddie47d

          Good for Bill Gates and it shows how clueless some of you are in what is REALLY going on in the world. He has a clue and is encouraging common sense in dealing with the world problems. Whether it is the health issue,environment or sustainability. He is not like the money mongers who want to destroy the environment (at least not deliberately) for that extra buck. He doesn’t ignore health problems in other countries and treat them like they are only throw away cheap labor. We’ve all seen the good, the bad and the ugly that corporations have wrought onto the 3rd world scene. I would say that Gates is one of the good guys. Fighting for a strong and healthy environment which improves lives and he is doing just that. Not like the trashy implied comments in that video of yours. He’s not like the countries and corporations that wage needless wars and exploit for corporate profit and create greater misery.(Nigeria,Angola or Iraq will do for now) You can take your pick for that list is long.

          • Angel Wannabe

            Yeah but eddie, isn’t he the kind of guy you Liberals don’t like__he’s a capitalist, filthy rich and employs (or has 181,000 slaves that work for him?__I’m just sayin….

          • eddie47d

            Gates worker are slaves? I think he pays a decent wage and gives back to society. If he exploits Americans or anybody in the world then I would expose him also. Wealthy doesn’t equal evil it’s how honest you are in gaining that wealth.

      • JUKEBOX

        Obama’s START Treaty could be the start of a “MAD MAX” style of mutually assured destruction, which would fit this scenario. Don’t put anything past these incompetent pseudo intellectuals, but the positive side is that they would be the first to perish. Elites are not survivalists by any stretch of the imagination.

    • DeJay

      I know what you’re talking about. You do not have your head in the sand. You should tell it like it is. The Elders of Zion are behind what you refer to.

    • Pete NY “R I P FEDERAL RESERVE BANK”

      Lets get out of the UN as fast as we can and declare our Independence all over again. NWO is really NWD – New World Diet.

  • Angel Wannabe

    I like health insurance companies about as much as I like Washington right now. Bureaucrats sticking they’re noses in between Patient and Doctor decisions is as wrong now, as it was 14 years ago when I went through it with my Mother_What’s that you say_ it wasn’t going on before?_ I hate to tell ya, it has!__It depended then, what health insurance company you had._When your dealing with a loved one, who is trying to die, but God isn’t ready to take them home yet, you do all you can to make them comfortable… BUT DON’T LET IT UP TO THE INSURANCE COMPANIES, If ya trust them, you become the victim instead of a patient._ Keep in mind here my Mothers regular Doctor (a wonderful doctor) retired from the same office, as the Doctor WHO TOOK OVER HER CASE,_He 2nd doctor was an insurance whore, which means the doctor never mentioned anything he was going to do to her medically, without mentioning what the insurance company would allow. In other words, the less he treated her the better the bonus. I had to fight tooth and nail, to get my Mother Oxygen to come home.
    __She was placed on Oxygen in the hospital and she needed Oxygen to go home. Apparently the insurance company couldn’t decide if they were gonna pay for it or not, this is what followed_ My Mother hadn’t walked in 9 months, was wheelchair bound and weighed approximately 69 pounds. The day before she was released to go home to the hospital. They took her off her Oxygen and stopped her water pill. Within the hour, I walked in her hospital room, just as two nurses were dragging my Mother across the floor, when I say dragging I mean that, my mother couldn’t walk. She was pale, her lips were blue and she was panting and sweating. After I demanded they put her back in bed, I asked “just what the hell are you trying to do?” The nurses said the Doctors orders were, to get her blood oxygen level numbers low enough, which was below (82%),to satisfy the insurance company, to pay for oyxgen therapy at home. Well_The bastards got they’re low oxygen number it was, 71%. Bureaucradic interference and Death panels are nothing new, ya better know it now__ nO ONE KNOWS THEY’RE INSURANCE COMPANY UNTIL YOU NEED THEM, BE AWARE OF THAT!_If you’ve got a dying loved one, stay in it, with them. And make damn sure, you have a Doctor who cares more about people than money!_-I had a case to sue but couldn’t. My Dad was still living and In charge, but was to tired to fight it. The Hospital eventually did take action against this Doctor after she died, what he did the day she died was FAR worse. Stay on it with your loved ones folks!

    • http://none Mike

      My grandfather on my dads side died in a hospital. Mainly because he was old. He was involved in a car wreck and had a broken rib pierce his lung. The doctors at the hospital where he was taken refused to do surgery to repair it because they said he was 70 and the surgery might not help. He lived for over 7 days with his injuries. The old man would have still been kicking had they done the surgery but the hospital was reluctant to invest the time if they felt they wouldent be paid for it.My veiw of a hospital from there on out wae its a great place to go to die. In the end I guess we are all just numbers right? Mike L.

      • Angel Wannabe

        Im sorry Mike, yeah, its just sick! My Father in law was diagnosed with prstate cancer when he was 78. They said he was too old to do the surgery. But he lived until he was 92. When your nimbers up its up, But I’ll be damned if I’m gonna let bureacracy dictate mine and any other loved oes death. people deserve to be cared for(by Medical Professionals) until God takes us home.

        • http://none Mike

          Angel, I am deathly afraid of this new direction we are being taken in. Its only a matter of time until one of these brillent berucrats comes up with a slideing scale that says they can save money by offing people of a certin age or ethinisty group for that matter. It all starts by people being willing to give up freedom of choice. And all the while we will be fed the line that its good for us to die when told to save us any worry about it later. Mike L.

          • Angel Wannabe

            Mike, yeah I hear that, the Bureaucrats are playing GOD. They make me sick.The only God they worship is they’re stinkin money!
            This is exactly what the Founders warned us about, an over reaching Government. They are in way over they’re heads and ours. All we can do is pray for divine intervention and do what we can humanly do here. But that I mean staying on top on things concerning our own and our loved oned well fare.

      • DeJay

        My wife died in the hospital. Of all the meds she was given,some of which contributed to her cancer. I have been an avid reader, exprimenting on myself and researching alternatives. I believe they contributed to her death. I have been in the hospital several times and felt like I was a prisoner there. None of the foods they gave were health promoting. There are doctors who will only used meds as a last resort after trying alernatives. Your best bet is to try and find one. My next venture is to look into Chinese medicine.

        • Angel Wannabe

          Deejay, I’m sorry about your wife. All we can do is the best we can. Prevention is the best Medicine. But the idiots in Washington wanna even curtail vitamins and the natural approch of healing.I’m convinced there is a plant that heals evet known ailment. God wouldn’t put us here without it. There is always an alternative. But were left to find out what it is.

          • Pete NY “R I P FEDERAL RESERVE BANK”

            For Angel and everybody really. I highly recommend Jethro Kloss’s book “Back to Eden”. It is chock full of excellent remedies and advice.

          • Angel Wannabe

            Thanks Pete, I’m gonna check that out! :)

        • http://none Mike

          Pete, Ill add that to my lst. Thanks for the recomendation. Mike L.

        • http://none Mike

          DeJay, Alot of the medications given these days seem to result in dire side effects. As with any medication that is a chemical derivitive will have some side effects. Mike L.

          • Angel Wannabe

            Your right Mike, My Mother was steroid dependent for I’d say at least 25 years_She had a massive heart attack. That weakened her heart. but what she died from was an aortic valve that had shrunk. It was twice as small as it should have been. One of her specialists that originally diagnosed the condition, said it was a direct result of long term steroids. The steroids kept her on her feet and out of the wheelchair until the last few years of her life, but it just ravaged her heart. Its a damn if you do, and damn if you don’t situation sometimes.

    • JUKEBOX

      I went through a real end of life scenario with my mother. I told her doctor that I did not want her to spend her last days suffering the effects of chemotherapy. The doctor went behind my back and got her to agree to starting it. Within two weeks, she went to her heavenly reward, and the doctor collected thousands from Medicare. Who benefited from this? The doctor is still above ground.

  • Victoria DeLacy

    Check out the You Tube video “First They Came for the Jews” – when one group in society is made vulnerable to extinction, none of us are safe! The new Republican-led Congress soon to begin was elected upon a mandate to take that horrible health-destroying bill to the Supreme Court that they may get it overturned/declared unconstitutional based upon the individual mandate. Our A.G. Ken Cuccinelli has done a fine job of establishing the precedent for getting that done to save the best health care system in the world – there is yet hope. Pray they follow through and are successful in that endeavor. As for me, I signed a Loving Will from American Life League which states in so many words “spare no expense, keep me alive!” but how much respect/adherence do you suppose that will be given if the government begins taking over those decisions? We cannot permit them to do it!

  • Festus

    Get rid of the (offensive word removed).

    • JC

      If you are referring to your wife…fair enough.
      If you are referring to the Kenyan in the White House, he is half white and half black and his “mixed” race is irrelevant to the need to remove him.
      His politics alone speak loudly enough to call for an impeachment though.

    • JeffH

      Festus, that kind of “talk” has no place here and you are a racist!

  • Mediawatcher

    This column is EXACTLY the reason Rep. Blumenauer didn’t want a lot of publicity for the provision: the column completely distorts what the provision actually does in order to frighten people into objecting to it. Here are some actual facts:

    1. The provision allows one conversation with a practitioner annually about advance directives to be paid for by Medicare. The fact that a practitioner doesn’t need to be a “medical school graduate” doesn’t mean “is not required to have medical training,” but thanks for obfuscating that point. In fact practitioners do need to have medical training — as physician’s assistants or licensed practical nurses, for example. The fact that they don’t need to be medical doctors is a way to save costs without sacrificing level of service, something you should appreciate (but fail to mention).

    2. The provision does NOT REQUIRE this conversation. It merely allows a practitioner to offer it and have it paid for. Any patient has the freedom to decline the offer (something else you conveniently didn’t mention).

    3. The provision does not restrict the kind of advance directives a patient may choose. A patient has the perfect right to direct that all lifesaving or life-prolonging measures be employed until the very end. All the provision does is offer a formal mechanism for that specification. And unlike what some of the commenters here allege (again, without supporting evidence), there will be no change from current practice in what gets covered or not. And you all love your socialist Medicare, right?

    4. The provision will help patients give increased clarity to end-of-life decisions while they are still able to direct them, something that brings peace of mind to patients, their families and their medical caregivers (but you know that already; you just chose not to mention it).

    So, instead of sticking with the facts, your column adds 2 and 2 and comes up with 7. You feel free to replace the words “provide for” with the word “require” (something the provision does NOT do). You also automatically assume that medical professionals with no interest in benefiting the government will nonetheless reach for their basest instincts in urging their patients to end their lives sooner, but you provide no supporting evidence anywhere to show that this is what will actually happen. You conveniently forget to address whether the medical profession supports this provision (which it does).

    But hey, you can’t really be blamed for doing what you’re doing here. You take advantage of people’s tendency to be poorly informed and you use their ignorance to frighten them. It’s worked so well for you in the past; as long as people stay uninformed, why let facts get in the way of a good scare tactic?

    • http://none Mike

      Media, All the while said doctor is being pressured by said berucrat. To either offer it or through simple non treatment to enforce it. Nope sorry I do not buy the fact that this is going to be voluntary in any way shape or form. He didnt want the publicty for it though thats for sure. WOULD YOU? Mike L.

      • Angel Wannabe

        Right Mike!__if they’re all on the up and up, on these death panels , why are they trying to hide it?

      • Mediawatcher

        Mike, I’m curious how you see a bureaucrat (please note spelling) pressuring a doctor. I’m assuming by “bureaucrat” you mean some kind of government representative — who would that be, exactly, and what actions would they be taking to pressure a doctor?

        • Shibamom

          My God…you are soooooo naive. A Government is never out to help anyone, compassionatly or otherwise! Wake up!

          • http://none Mike

            No he is a poster for Mediamatters. Go on that sight and you will see him there. Mike L.

          • Mediawatcher

            Mike, it’s she, not he, and no, I’m not over on Media Matters. But glad you got your exercise jumping to conclusions.

          • http://none Mike

            Media Sorry for the assumption on gender. But the points you are makeing are the same ones being posted every day on Mediamatters. So no it wasent a far jump to think you had come from there. Mike L.

          • Karolyn

            What made you people so cynical!

          • JUKEBOX

            You are right on! We are merely a SS# to the government bureaucrats.

        • http://none Mike

          Should have made that Plural there Mediamatters. It will be a panel made up of insurance bordmembers and your local goverment health representitives. They will determin your treatment via a sliding scale. That will place cost against years of productivity. The doctor will be left one choice follow the recomendations or be fined or imprisiond. The patient through laws passed as follow up to the main bill will be held in liable and face fines or imprisonment.If he or she tries to shop for healthcare via cash. This isnt new its a re-write of Hillerycare.Mike L.

          • Mediawatcher

            Wow, that’s a stretch. You’re imagining a lot that just isn’t there. “Local government health representatives?” Fining or imprisoning a patient through imagined future laws? Really? Point me to those provisions and I’ll gladly admit I’m wrong, but until then, could we stay with reality and out of the realm of fantasy?

            What is there already, however, as several here point out, is private, for-profit insurance company control over what gets covered — usually based on ability to pay. I see a couple of posts from people who are exercised about that, but by and large you guys give the insurance companies a complete pass, and I don’t understand why.

            So if I understand your logic correctly, insurance-company rationing to deny care, which is currently happening, is OK (because it’s “the free market at work?”), but a completely fabricated scheme that will be engaged in by some nonexistent entity, that as far as I can tell has no basis in current law or fact, is a sign of the impending apocalypse. Hey, go with it if it works for you, but if rationing is your real concern I do wonder where you’ve been all this time.

          • http://none Mike

            Mediamatters, Go back and Read the healthcare plan that was proposed by Hillery Clinton in the 90′s and you will see just exactly the provisions I named if you care to. The same provisions are laid out in the ground work of this current law as well. Dont try to spoon feed us talking points untill you have actually tried to wade through this monstrocity. Its all in the wording my friend.

            As for future laws around this bill. Go take a look at where in cost cutting mesures with any socilized medical system in the world. They have had when cost cutting mesurs were invoked. To pass laws and rationings. That include the very things I have named. But no you will continue to belive that because Obama said it it must be true. No matter what they do in the name of socialisim. Mike L.

          • Mediawatcher

            “The same provisions are laid out in the ground work of this current law as well.” … “As for future laws around this bill. Go take a look at where in cost cutting mesures with any socilized medical system in the world.”

            In other words, you got nothing. What exactly does “laid out in the ground work” mean? Are those provisions in the actual law, or not? And if they are, exactly what section? You’re making the allegation, so let’s see the proof.

            And when are we getting a “socilized [sic] medical system?” I define that as a system owned either publicly or by its workers. The law gets us nowhere even close to that.

          • http://none Mike

            Media, No streath of the immagination Here are just 2 of the sights I use to back it up. I use these 2 because they make the direct comparison to the Hillerycare bill. Wickipedia and About.com. These 2 vary a bit in either their favorable or disfavorable opinions of both bills. Mike L.

          • Mediawatcher

            Wikipedia entry for the Obama Health Care Plan of 2009: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obama_health_care_plan_of_2009. No mention of Hillarycare.

        • Angel Wannabe

          Mediawatcher, they’re going to form Committees in Washington, who’ll dictate to the insurance companies and doctors about our care__Are you up for that?

          • Mediawatcher

            Angel, as I’ve said elsewhere here, insurance companies are already determining what care will be provided and what will not, driven purely by private profit. When was the last time you objected to that? Either rationing care is OK with you or it isn’t; it shouldn’t depend on who is doing the rationing.

          • http://none Mike

            Media, The cost are being driven up by the same types of laws as bind the insurance companies to offer policies laden with coverages the avarage buyer of that policy will never need.I can name you at least 10 items passed by our beloved goverment in this law. Specifically designed to eleminate compition. And drive forth the single payer system of goverment care. You think its bad now wait untill your beloved goverment decides all your care needs. Take 2 asprin and call me in the morning after that car wreck. Mike L.

          • Angel Wannabe

            MM__Rationing of any kind is not OK!_Whether its a doctor or an insurance company!__It ALWAYS the easiest to be rational concerning life and death talk when one is young & healthy and NoT YET threatened by some bureaucratic death decision. These people are usually the ones making these laws, aren’t they? Ask someone who is elderly about they’re thoughts on life and death discussions, chances are they’ll tell if they’re in a coma with no hope then pull the plug! If they’re healthy they will talk differently___My Father prime example, was on a ventilator. WITH HIS FULL MENTAL CAPIBILITIES, He asked the doctor in a written message, to take him off of it, as he didn’t want to live like that.iT WAS HIS LIFE I WENT ALONG WITH IT. When he was removed, He was given a maximum of 2 hours to live off the ventilator__ End result, he rallied and LIVED THREE MORE YEARS!!_-No One KNOWS when life will end in situations like this, who’ll rally and who won’t__THE POINT REMAINS IS “OUR RIGHT TO CHOOSE, NOT BUREAUCRATS OR ANYONE ELSE”!!! Making a living directive doesn’t mean it can’t be changed!_-Man did not create us, God decides when we go home, not men!_-I BELIEVE PEOPLE should EXPECT Health care professionals (especially when we pay the premiums), to assist in taking care of people until they draw they’re last breath__REGARDLESS!!! Insurance companies bank on, the larger percentage of people not getting sick or having near fatal accidents, they take a risk. When some one does need them, it they’re job to pay the bills__
            Its Not they’re job, to try and get out of the contract between, because they deem it too expensive to keep someone alive!!!!
            For Gods sake we aren’t animals!__Gads!!!

          • http://none Mike

            Angel, The whole thing stinks to high heavens. If there werent laws passed every day that the insurance companies had to comply with we could afford our own policies. And pretty much the same thing with doctors. Million dollar a year malpratice insurance benifits no one really but the trial lawyers. The FDA with all its poor regulation that has done nothing but approve fatel and near fatel drugs for the past ten years or more. Is another regulatory cost. If some or all of the goverment built in cost were removed. Maby we could afford our own health care. But as long as you have people out there willing to support the goverment interfearing with anything thats market driven. Cost will continue to rise. Mike L.

    • Angel Wannabe

      The whole Media Watcher, this is the whole idea of this article,is to get informed. That means learn the whole process, not just the part you want to hear! They’re are ALWAYS LOOPHOLES!__I lived it. I worked in the Medical field and took care and buried ALL of my Family, my husband and I took care of all decisions insurance paper work!__NO ONE knows what they’re insurance company will do, until you need them!__TRUST ME ON THAT!_and they’re worse today!

      • Angel Wannabe

        ignore typos thanks!

      • http://GOGGLE vaksal

        TO:Angel Wannabe,i hope this story tells about human nature and so called medical care,my kidneys died 9yrs ago,chemical expousure to cyanide,light,i was on dyalasis for 4yrs,of utter hell,but thank GOD i recieved a kidney transplant,then i recieved the bill,all i can say is i could have owned a bank and it wouldnt have payed for the kidney or the operation,but being the dumb ranch kid i was i salted a chunk of change for a big rainy day,well to make the story short,8 months ago i had upper resperitory collaspe due to the fact that the insurance company went cheap on the type of medicines they would pay for,well i died on the gurney,but was put on a massive ventilator machine with more tubes then the plumbing at home,heres the kicker,thank god that i instructed my daugther to never allow this to happen to me,but due to the fact that i have a larger than normal amount of family memebers it took five days to pull that dam thing off me,when they did the doctor told my family i wouldnt last the night,of course i had no idea i died,but when i woke up my daughter told me everything that happened. i was in the hospital for the longest time,and during that time the insurance company was trying to get me released,long before i was healed,well like the tuff old ranch working man i was i am still here,and read the good book at night and have my guns nearby,and as far as death panels,let them bring it on,those criminals pushing this stuff,better have a better plan than that,for GOD just keeps sending me back,maybe its to get even with the insurance company or maybe to get even with these communist liberal neo-com thieves that are now thinking they can kill old folks,i think GOD has a different plan,and i am proof of it,and all insurance companies are nothing less than extortionist and lying low life crooks,and if some desk jockie comes to pull the plug on any of my kin,they will get their plug pulled,zero tolerance.from VAKSAL,

        • Angel Wannabe

          Vaksal, I’m gonna start calling you “Vaksal the Rascal”!!!What an awesome story, sorry what you had to go through, but so glad your still here to the story!!!!_-Ats they it was with my folks and me_-if ya read through my posts, you’ll see some it and what we went through too. I started writing a book a while back, sounds like you should too. Ya know after reading through these posts Vaksal_-I’m swiftly coming to the same conclusion, that it doesn’t matter what these b*stards throw at us tough old birds, we take a kicking and keep on ticking!!_and when the Good Lords ready, he’ll take us home, not before!!! God Bless you doll, I’d like to buy you a beer sometime and sit long and talk much!__ :)

      • JUKEBOX

        Nancy Pelosi warned us when she said, “WE HAVE TO PASS THIS, SO WE CAN FIND OUT WHAT’S IN IT”. I guarantee you that she cannot tell you today what’s in it, but she can find a bureaucrat somewhere to give you a BS aswer. She won’t soil her scrawny hands with any problems.

    • DEBRA ANDERSON

      WELL, I SURE WOULDN’T WANT TO BE ONE OF THE “CLERICAL ERRORS” THAT I KNOW HAPPEN ON A DAILY BASIS WHERE A “MEDICAL ASSISTANT” GRADUATE FILLS IN THE WRONG LITTLE CIRCLE AND I AM THEN OFFICIALLY AND FOREVER DEEMED TO HAVE ELECTED AN EARLY, SPEEDY EXIT … TRYING TO GET IT CORRECTED ON YOUR RECORD, EVEN IF YOU DISCOVERED THE ERROR SOON ENOUGH, WOULD BE A TRYING THING TO ACCOMPLISH.

      • JUKEBOX

        Never forget, MEDICAL MISTAKES ARE BURIED!

    • RivahMitch

      “The provision does NOT REQUIRE this conversation. It merely allows a practitioner to offer it and have it paid for.”

      A reasonable interpretation of “allowing it” and “paying for it” is incentivizing it. Like welfare, illegitimacy and unemployment, what you subsidize, you incentivize, what you incentivize, you increase. Perhaps you’ve missed the discussions in Denmark recently where euthanasia has been implemented without the patients request? Perhaps, you’ve not read about “QARY” (which denies care to the elderly and the newborn based on economics) or that physicians will be paid and evaluated based on “outcomes” or about treatments already being denied in Oregon?

      Oh, I know, “it will never happen here”.

      • Mediawatcher

        1. I’m good with increasing the instance of people making clear end-of-life directives. Small cost, huge return.

        2. Paying based on outcomes has a lot of nuance to it. In some cases it’s absolutely the right thing to do; in others it’s not even applicable. Impossible to make a blanket statement about it.

        3. Got some links for things like “QARY” and Oregon’s denial of care?

        4. I don’t really care what’s happening in Denmark, but if you have links for that, let’s see those too.

        • hflashman

          “3. Got some links for things like “QARY” and Oregon’s denial of care?” <– Media watcher

          I think she's confused. Whatever she's referring to, it's not concerning Oregon's Death With Dignity Act. Of course, she's probably not aware of how it was voted in twice, by large margins; how it's almost universally supported in the state; nor how all the hype and lies about it turned out to be…hype and lies. Deliberate lies on the second vote.

          She may be confusing it with the Oregon health plan where Oregon implemented a "Public Option' for those falling below a crtain income level. They list I believe 120 procesures the Health plan would cover…and the big hype came down when a girl with brain cacer was denied coverage because the procedure wasn't listed as covered. Didn't matter no insurance policy would have been the same outcome…the wacked anti's use it as "proof' of the "evils' of public options.

          Yet…as with Oregon's Death With Dignity Act…you ask the people of Oregon about doing away with the Oregon Health Plan and they refer you to the nearest lunatic asylum. But it must be 'evil' because so many lies against it are made. Right? If people lie about it being 'bad" and "evil', it has to be such. Or so goes the wacked logic.

          • Mediawatcher

            Thank you for the clarification. No wonder I didn’t recognize what was being discussed in the original post.

    • Rick N.

      Mediawatcher, thanks for bringing some sanity to the conversation. Ben Crystal’s delusional propaganda is EXACTLY the reason Rep. Blumenauer didn’t want a lot of publicity for the provision.

      The misinformation and paranoia floating around this web site is both sad and frightening. It doesn’t surprise me though…if you’re a paranoid government-hating conspiracy theorist, this is the kind of place you’ll hang out.

      Bob and his cronies at Stansbury and all their gold-selling buddies are laughing all the way to the bank.

      • Angel Wannabe

        RickN, Why are you “HANGING” out here then?????–Hmmm

        • Rick N.

          Entertainment value.

          • Angel Wannabe

            Rick N, I guess it beats looking for your remote! :)

          • Angel Wannabe

            Rick N, I guess it beats looking for your remote huh?! :)

          • JC

            Get a life moron. Some of us are actually concerned about our nation.

        • JUKEBOX

          He’s probably killing time waiting for his welfare check & waiting to vote for Obama in 2012!

      • http://www.boblivingstonletter.com/ Bob Livingston

        Dear Rick N.,

        And it costs you how much to come to this site?

        Best wishes,
        Bob

      • Pete NY “R I P FEDERAL RESERVE BANK”

        Rick, during the Bush admin where were you hanging out? The volume of paranoia and gov. hating was full blast.

  • James

    It is also true that under the guise of preserving life, doctors and hospitals suck the monetary blood out of a dying patient’s bank account, with unnecessary tests and procedures that have little, if any, effect on preservation of life.

    • eddie47d

      …but that is private and they can do as they please. If they shaft you, so what,it’s private. If they charge for unnecessary medicine,so what, it’s private. If they talk you into an unnecessary operation,so what,it’s private. If they are making big profits off of you,so what,it’s private. They (anti-government crowd) will not accept any alternatives to our healthcare mess. They will accept getting abused by these private companies,because they are private. The government is evil and the private hospitals who are shafting them are their best friend. It can’t get much more Orwellian than that but they will surely try.

  • http://FireFox Ken Kaws

    We the people need to arise and put a stop to this evil before it continues and gets stronger. Hitler was a real threat to our freedom, but the real danger lies in Washington D.C. where Elected Presidential/Congressional Traitors have erected Bureaucratic Agencies that are destroying our way of life. These same traitors, are in bed with Al Gore and his Global Warming lies. The proof of Al’s lying can bee seen in all the snow storms that keep coming year after year, not only to America but across Europe. Wonder why this crowd can’t see it. I believe that they do see it, it just don’t fit with their plans and they think we the people are too stupid to care and cannot do anything about what they are doing anyways. Surprise, Surprise their payday is coming and sooner than they think. Almighty God is The judge that cannot be bought with bribes and He will give to these people all that they have coming to them. I pray that He will do it soon for the sake of all our little ones.

    • eddie47d

      There are no grand conspiracy lies about global warming and those massive snowstorms are actually the result of growing greenhouse gases in the atmosphere. That conversation is for another day so go look it up and be ready.

      • eddie47d

        Yes Ken,a bunch of us “traitors” just climbed out of Al Gore’s bed.We made sure we fluffed his pillows if you are so concerned. I see Jeff had to climb into your bed of nonsense. I guess anything goes on this site, along with you and Jeff totally changing the subject matter.

    • JeffH

      Ken, on climate change….Claude Allegre, a leading French scientist, who was among the first scientists to try to warn people of the dangers of global warming 20 years ago, now believes that “increasing evidence indicates that most of the warming comes of natural phenomena”. Allegre said, “There is no basis for saying, as most do, that the “science is settled.” He is convinced that global warming is a natural change and sees the threat of the ‘great dangers’ that it supposedly poses as being bloated and highly exaggerated.

      A group of scientists recently stated that the research behind Al Gore’s documentary and in fact, the concept of greenhouse gases causing global warming, is “a sham”. They claim that in fact, there is very little evidence to prove that theory, and that the evidence actually points to an increase in solar activity being the cause of climate change.

      Timothy Ball, one of the first Canadian doctors in climatology, recently wrote an article addressing the issue of why no one seems to be listening to scientists who claim that global warming is NOT man-made. Ball continues to explain that climate change is occurring, but that it is because it is always occurring, it is a natural change that is a result of the changes in the Sun’s temperature. He explains that we are currently leaving what was known as a Little Ice Age and that the history of Earth is riddles with changes in the climate. That’s what climate does and is always doing, changing. Dr. Ball claims that “there is nothing unusual going on,” and that he “was as opposed to the threats of impending doom global cooling engendered as [he was] to the threats made about Global Warming.”

      In a storm of scientists speaking out against Al Gore’s movie, an Australian professor of the Marine Geophysical Laboratory has publicly stated, “Gore’s circumstantial arguments are so weak that they are pathetic. It is simply incredible that they, and his film, are commanding public attention.” In response to the use of images in Gore’s movie of glaciers breaking off, Dr. Boris Winterhalter, a professor on marine geology and former marine researcher at the Geological Survey of Finland, said that, “The breaking glacier wall is a normally occurring phenomenon which is due to the normal advance of a glacier.” Makes sense, especially since history tells us that glaciers move, after all, that’s what helped form our valleys and reshaped mountain ranges at the end of the last ice age about 10,000 years ago.

      I am not saying that it isn’t a good idea to take action to help the environment, but I ask you to consider this: if the majority of scientific data points to the fact that global warming is caused by the Sun, then how will a tax on carbon emissions help to stop it? How does us driving cars cause climate change on Mars, Jupiter, Saturn, Pluto, Neptune and Triton? Can Al Gore please fill me in on this? If CO2 increases as a RESULT of temperature increases, then how can we hope to accomplish anything by taxing emissions? That’s like saying we will prevent the process of humans ageing by dying their grey hairs. It’s not grey hair that causes people to age; it’s ageing that causes grey hair. And nothing that you do to your hair will have any affect on how long you live. Especially since ageing is a natural process that cannot be stopped and has always occurred and will always occur. Just like climate change.
      http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=5086

  • linda zirhut

    I feel extraordinary measures at the end of life to be a travesty. I’ve seen a lot in my 64 years and prefer the Kavorkian approach. You love your animals so much you don’t want to see them suffer. Why wouldn’t you do the same for your loved ones. If you’re terminal – youu’re dead anyway. If God calls you home – GO.

    • http://none Mike

      Linda and James, I have had friends die of cancer that refused to the very end to give up. Whats the matter with that its THEIR CHOICE to do so. And yes there are some out there in the medical field that milk this process for all its worth ill admit.

      The problem is through second and third party payments its become more profitable to treat a diseas not cure it. God forbid we cure anything anymore. Then we might not need all the lawyers, insurance agents,goverment feelgooders, And the FDA. All of which raise the cost of said healthcare to the point where you cant afford a doctor.

      All I am really asking is for the choice I make whether to treat naturally or medically be left in my hands and not be taken away from me or my family. Mike L.

      • eddie47d

        Actually you will still have a choice and 36 million uninsured folks will get healthcare. So many more will have a better and longer life. Now if Conservatives are all about LIFE then this new healthcare plan will be a feather in their hat. Think of all the lives that will be saved and all the living,breathing humans who will have that second chance. Instead of dying at home with little or no care. I choose to give those 36 million that choice to live(at least have that opportunity to do so). How about you?

        • Dan az

          Eddiee
          No I think all the illegals should just go home!It would save us allot of money.And the fact that these death panels wanting to hurry along anyone that wishes just tells me that they already have plans for there spare parts to compensate the health care sham.There are no free rides in life and I wish you would get that into your pea brain.We will not pay for your existence if you cant swim then you sink!

        • http://none Mike

          Eddie,There is a problem with that 36 million uninsured.It includs all of thoes that nither have nor want health insurance. It includes about 15 million Illeagles that are crossing the border for healthcare. The actual numbers are probly closer to 11 million. Truly uninsured. That number usually seeks care in our emergency rooms and free clinics throughout the US. Mike L.

          • eddie47d

            Most of those 36 million are American citizens not illegals. They may be out there but can’t be counted as uninsured Americans. Yes Mike some people don’t want insurance but I think that is the exception. I also bet they would use the emergency room if needed and that costs us all. Whether legal or illegal.

  • Bruce

    Let’s get to the bottom line. Most senior citizens on social security don’t pay taxes unless we have investments and money drawing interest. Therefore, we are a burden. People fight to save a person on death row, who’s been sitting there for several years, but they don’t give a rip about the honest, God fearing people who love this country. Let’s get the politicians on the same health care policy!

  • James Anderson

    There is nothing wrong with “end of life” counseling so that the patients wishes are respected. The real “death panels” will be those bureaucrats who decide that you are too old or too costly to continue treatment. That is sure to happen in the “single payer” system. I lived under the British system back in the 1960s while flying for the Royal Air Force as an Exchange Officer. Being old and being sick was a bad combination in those days. In some degree, those panels already exist in the Insurance companies. My daughter used to be a DRG coordinator in a medical system that monitored how long patients were kept in the hospital for various medical problems. Some doctors kept them too long to “milk” the insurance companies, and others “bounced them out” long before they were able to survive on their own without substantial assistance, especially if they had no insurance.

    • Mediawatcher

      We’re getting a single-payer system? When?

      • Angel Wannabe

        Mediawatcher, Obama has been a proponent of single payer health care-LONG before he was elected, do you really think we aren’t headed there??!__Link below

        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l7wTDK-LwqE

        • Mediawatcher

          I understand that. The truth is, we already have two single-payer systems in place, both of which work pretty well: the VA system and Medicare. But no, despite all your wild imaginings, I don’t think that’s where we’re headed as a country. The private insurance lobby is much too strong.

          • Angel Wannabe

            MW, I don’t imagine anything, I lived it__Thanks!

          • http://none Mike

            Obviously you have not had to deal with either one of them or tou wouldent say that. I am dealing with medicare right now with my moms Alzhemiers and its a real circus trying to get them to do anything with her medications. One of which actually was helping and guess what thats the one they now refuse to pay for. Hmm yes its just wonderful for Vets too thats why we have had stories about Vet hospitals for years that wouldent meet the safty and cleanleness standards of public houseing. Much less medical care facilitie. Mike L.

          • Angel Wannabe

            Media Watcher__Question_-I would assume you have a TV, Right?__and Cable Right?_-Say you pay monthly for the right to watch premium cable__Now_all of a sudden, your cable company decides that “everybody” is on basic cable, no more premium channels___Someone else made the desicion for you to go basic, end result__you lost your to choose!

          • Angel Wannabe

            Mw typo_it should have read_ you lost your “right” to Choose!

          • Mediawatcher

            Actually, Angel, I do not have a TV or cable. Again, glad you got your exercise jumping to conclusions. (And kind of a poor analogy, don’t you think, unless you can reasonably equate cable service with healthcare?)

          • Angel Wannabe

            Media Watcher,I get it, ya didn’t get it!__I’m more than happy to move along! :)

          • meteorlady

            Ya – right. VA: my friend in Seattle went to the VA hospital. He was found to have gall bladder problems. The kept him in intensive care for a few days because he was also diabetic. His wife comes to visit on the third day and they can’t find him. They moved him and can’t find him just like that. Took them two days to find what room he was in. After that he was discharged and told to get surgery for the gall bladder but they couldn’t give him a date because their computers were down that day. So he called two days later from home and found they had lost his records. Called in another two days and was told that he could not schedule surgery for one year because they were so booked.

            Medicare – I have had two doctors now. Both retired because they were loosing money by taking Medicare/Medicaid patients. They were sometimes unable to perform the needed treatment required by the patient because their Medicare provider would not pay or paid less than the service cost the clinic. My current doctor does not accept any new Medicare patients because they raise the price of her services to her insured and paying patients. As for Medicaid – I don’t know a doctor in my community that is taking any new Medicaid patients.

            That’s government run anything…..

          • Mediawatcher

            Actually, Mike, I do deal with the Medicare system; I too look after my mother, who has Alzheimer’s. No care system is perfect, but we have been able to choose her doctors, who provide excellent care and whose records are entirely electronic; and most of her essential care is paid for promptly. We too have problems with her prescription drugs, but I think this is a fixable weakness rather than an indictment of the entire system. Overall, Medicare has been a godsend to older people. I would much rather keep it and work to improve it than rail against its weaknesses. You?

          • eddie47d

            Meteorlady; That equation comes down to greed. The majority of doctors are going into selective fields where they can make bundles of money on one surgery or continual cancer care or some other speciality. Few doctors ever made alot of money off of ordinary folks and ordinary problems. The family doctor has to see about 25 patients a day to make even a small part of what a specialist makes. Follow the money.

          • hflashman

            Meteorlady…try something that will enlighten you. Go suggest to a vet that we should privatize the VA medical plan. (some advice. Make sure you are standing a ways back so you have a chance to escape th resulting tirade for your suggestion).

            If it was such an evil thing, why are vets so strong in keeping it?

          • Dan az

            Mediawatcher
            Apparently you dont use the VA otherwise you would know that is the place you go to die!

          • Karolyn

            Dan – I have known, and know, people who use the VA medical system with excellent care and results. They have the latest in everything and are very efficient.

    • http://none Mike

      James, Yea some out there have had to live it to belive it. Its just sad that all the proponents of this system have never had to live under one.. But its looking more and more like whether we want it or not its comming here too. Mike L.

      • Dan az

        Mike
        You know what really fries me is that after they do get it its always to late to change it.There just isn’t any satisfaction when you to must suffer for there ignorance.

        • http://none Mike

          Dan, It fries the hell out of me that we can look at where all these systems failed everywhere in the world. And go we know better than they did so it will succed here.

          Everywhere its tried the result has been rationing death and destruction of a free peoples rights to their very lives. And yet No that cant happen here
          . Yea right it can and will. Another point is what happens when all this supposed cash flow dries up. When we have taxed every busness to extenction. Every non taxpayer is still demanding more and more services from the productive class.Oh yea we have a fine example of that its Greece.

          You have proponets of the public option(taxpayer option) useing every excuse under the sun why its so great.Ask Brittian how great that is. Last I herd Canada had an 11 month wait on maternity wards. Seems like you need to know at least 3 months in advance now when your going to get pregnant.So you will have a bed.No this nightmare is comming here and unless we do something soon .It will be ingrained as another of thoes rights that the goverment is going to use to enslave us.Dam I hate to be so negitive but I wish we could just wake up. This isnt the reform we need. Its actually the last kind of reform we need in healthcare. :( Mike L.

          • Dan az

            Mike
            As far as I can tell its still illegal and it wont get through.Fut what do I know its only the constitution and bill of rights that they try an usurp.I have talked with people from all over the world about there health care and they said the same thing over and over again that they will come here to have surgery because of the waiting period is to long and they would die before they got in.Sounds to me like its just a way to lesson the elderly burden or non tax payers to fund there agenda.Then collect on inheritance tax.

  • jopa

    Sgt. Wheeler I take this time to salute you.It is not very often anyone explains how it really is in the real world on this site.Did you happen to notice how Ben Crystal (offensive word removed) made the pratitioners out to be some kind of boogeyman.When in reality a practitioner is a Medical doctor or family physician in most cases.I also want and have end of life directives.The worst thing I can imagine is waking up with a feeding and breathing tube down my throat and family trying to prolong my misery.Thinking about getting a DNR tattoo.The medical field can keep you alive as a vegetable for decades but I don’t want that in my future.

    • meteorlady

      So that’s why you take responsibility for yourself and get a medical directive and living will. As for “practitioner” – where does it explicitly state that they are your doctor or any doctor for that matter? All the doctors that I have even had, or that I have taken my mother to, have encouraged us to fill out a living will or end of life directive – it’s pretty standard for them to do that but they don’t “counsel”. I asked my doctor why she doesn’t counsel, and she said it’s because it’s a person’s personal choice and she did not feel it was her right to interfere with that FREEDOM.

      • Mediawatcher

        Ah. This makes your confusion clear. “Counseling” refers to the establishment of end-of-life directives, not to what specific provisions should be in them. The provision in the bill permits once-a-year sessions to discuss creating or updating end-of-life directives, preferably while a patient is still HEALTHY (meaning there’s no vested interest in the content of the directive). It in no way addresses what should be in those directives.

        So what you’re really saying is that urging more people to establish directives really equals urging more people to forgo lifesaving treatment. If, among all the people such as you who currently have end-of-life directives, explicitly encouraging people to forgo care isn’t happening to any huge degree (and if it were happening I think we’d hear about it), how will that be different just by inviting more people to establish clear directives? Logically that doesn’t follow at all. But carry on …

  • John S

    The real solution would be to eliminate medical insurance entirely. Take for example a recent doctor visit by my son who does not have insurance. He asked, if I pay today cash, how much of a discount can I get? Immediate response: 20%.
    When I look at the statements from my insurance I notice that there is consistantly a 30% to 40% difference in what is billed and what is paid by myself (copay) and what the insurance company pays. Now one has to ask; If there were no insurance companies, how much would medical care really cost?
    I also think that we should call it medical insurance not health insurance. We are not going to the gym, we are going to the doctor.

    • Angel Wannabe

      John S, Your Right!__I had five eye sugeries to keep from going blind. Before the 5th surgery my husband was laid off. The surgery was performed regardless, and billing took place AFTER cobra ended. I was liable for $4500!__I told the doctor I was going to have to be put on a payment plan, because of no insurance, he immediately reduced my bill to $1500!__You tell me!

      • http://none Mike

        Angel, Yea its amazing to me you can go to a walk in clinic and get a service for 20 dollars. And you can go to a regular family doctor and that same service will cost you 120 with insurance or 89 without. This disparity is in the cost to the doctor in time and money invested in reciveing payments from insurance. Mike L.

        • Angel Wannabe

          Mike, Yeah amazing isn’t it? My Mother in law 92, has Alzheimers too advanced stage, she stays at home with us, my sister in law, husband and I take turns with her care. My sister in law used a clinic one night for an emergency_ it was $25 fee, and a five minute wait to be seen. They left in 40 minutes. The Government makes everything frickin worse when they get involved, and the writings on the wall with Obamacare!

        • Karolyn

          That’s great if you have walk-in clinics. We don’t have them, but we do have a nonprofit medical corporation that has several offices and charges on a sliding scale. For one price, you can get all services done in one day, including ultrasound, doctor visit, bloodwork and counseling. I only pay $20, and whatever I can get done in one day is all for that $20. They operate a great organization and are doing well in a poor state (SC). There should be more like it.

          • Angel Wannabe

            Karolyn, I’m not sure how long they’ve been around here, mid atlantic states, but they took my sister-in-laws insurance card and all, I was quite impressed!_No waiting!

      • Karolyn

        If insurance is not involved, you can always negotiate with doctors and hospitals. They do it with the insurance companies and will do it with individuals. A friend of mine had a hernia operation and was pahying for it on his own. They cut the bill down from several thousand dollars to next to nothing. I can’t remember the exact amount.

        • libertytrain

          Karolyn – your comment about cutting his bill down because he doesn’t have insurance. Isn’t there something insane about that. Doesn’t it really mean the bills are jacked up so high now just for the heck of it – to make those extra bucks from the insurance company or the government if your on medicare or welfare. It’s kind of ludicrous.

          • Angel Wannabe

            Honestly Liberty I think the fees are so high, because of too many middlemen.

          • Karolyn

            Absolutely right.

          • libertytrain

            yep – probably too many government employees :) It still is ludicrous to imagine it can be cut down for some, while the others, usually the middle class pick up the slack. I’m not saying it’s wrong, just not quite right either.

  • Rick N.

    Geez Ben, can you possibly spin this any worse? Come on… “Pay for Slay”??? So if my doctor informs me that I don’t have to undergo life sustaining treatments, and I can die naturally with dignity, he has therefore slayed me? Give me a break – seriously. Are you afraid people might actually make an informed choice?

    This whole article is spun like a top. The legislation is based on INFORMING people of their options (I know – some of you are afraid of information). Nothing in this bill is intended to persuade doctors into “CONVINCING people to pull the plug”. There is nothing in it that legalizes assisted suicide, or allows “smothering Grandma with a pillow”. You are using twisted language to misinform people. This is called propaganda.

    Doctors are required by their profession to treat people and prevent disease/death. They also make their money doing this. They are not always good, however, at counseling their patients and letting them make informed decisions about their health. Throughout my life, doctors have ordered tests, procedures, prescriptions, etc. without telling me about their risks, or why I need them, or even asking me if I want them. Doctors constantly dictate health care decisions for people without even asking for their input. (I’m not demonizing doctors; it’s just the way they have always operated.)

    Encouraging doctors to inform their patients of all the options, including the option to let yourself die naturally, is not a sinister plot. It’s just open honest communication. This all aligns very well with conservative values (honest communication and free choice). It’s funny how you twist it into a bad thing because it is proposed by the “wrong” party. Of course, that is how you make YOUR money.

    Please stop the fearmongering and write something with some factual information that I can use.

    Thanks.

    • eddie47d

      Exactly and Rep. Blumenauer was very correct in how the hollowing crowd would react and in spades.

  • JC

    The secretive nature of Rep. Earl Blumenauer, (D-Ore.) remarks makes the whole thing highly suspect. A secretive Government is not a government of the people and is completely unnacceptable in these United States.

    • Rick N.

      I assume Julian Assange is your hero then.

      • http://none Mike

        As well as I can assume you have your head in the sand. He didnt want this out specifically because of the disscussion we are haveing about it right now. If you are so desirous of a goverment that acts sceretly against its citizens move to Cuba. Mike L.

        • Rick N.

          Let me just ask two simple questions…

          1. Why would anybody in their right mind be desirous of a non-transparent government?

          2. Why would a freely elected government act AGAINST its citizens?

          • http://none Mike

            Rick, Point one Noone wants a non transparent goverment. Other than the goverment that embessels from the people. One that passes laws that they exclude themselves from.One that peddles to forigen intrest over the will of its people. One that passes laws unwanted by the majority of the goverend, And the list goes on.

            Point 2 When Said goverment wants to hide the fact they are doing point one. Mike L.

      • JC

        You assume too much.
        I’m talking about a United States Rep. advocating secrecy in law making. WTH are you talking about?

        • hflashman

          JC… what ‘secrecy” is he advocating? The regs are published and open for comment. Bluemnauer stated the obvious. My email from Blumenauer didn’t contain what Crystal states was in some email. It wasn’t in mine (a voting constituent). So….maybe you should wonder about that. What email is Crystal referring to?

          • http://none Mike

            Flash, This whole bill has been pretty much passed under wraps so to speak from the start. From the comments made that we have to pass it to see whats in it. To the total lie of any bill before passed would be open to public view online 15 to 30 days before it was singed. Mike L.

          • JC

            “We would ask that you not broadcast this accomplishment out to any of your lists, even if they are ‘supporters’… Thus far, it seems that no press or blogs have discovered it… The longer this goes unnoticed, the better our chances of keeping it.” — Rep. Earl Blumenauer, (D-Ore.)

            Add to that the speed and secrecy with which the Kenyan Administration ran this through Congress and the Senate…

            “We have to pass it to see what’s in it” BullS**t

            And I think the term “secrecy” is appropriate and self explanatory.

            And it has no place in these United States.

        • http://none Mike

          Jc, I noticed he didnt have much to say about my reply to his points either. What he did was just an avarge un supported attack. Mike L.

          • JC

            No Mike, no response. That’s what happens when you corner socialists with the fallacy of their flawed views. Logic and reason combined with morality leave them out in the cold every time.

        • Rick N.

          Forget it. If the humor has to be explained, it’s not funny.

          • JC

            Actually it’s not funny…because it’s not funny.

  • dan a

    now that the door is open why not step threw and open camps so we can move everyone ,old or used up to .there we can help them pass on is mass and help health care to be more affordable for all !

  • http://www.personalliberty.com/author/ben-crystal/ Ben Crystal (with a quick geography lesson for the kiddies!)

    Little Diomede Island. 65°45′15″N 168°55′15″W. Home to a village of approximately 150 people. Located less than 2 miles east of (and on the other side of the International Date Line from) Big Diomede Island; which is a part of…wait for it…Russia.

    Just sayin’.

    • http://none Mike

      LOL Ben, Geography lessons for the uninformed. I love it Keep up the pounding. Some of us are listining out here. Mike L.

    • Rick N.

      So Sarah IS right! She can stand in desolate U.S. wilderness 5000 miles from Washington and see a desolate Russian wilderness 8000 miles from Moscow.

      Well I’ll be darned… I guess she IS qualified in foreign relations after all.

      • JC

        She’s a lot more qualified than that globalist twit in the White House simply by virtue of being American.

  • meteorlady

    The bottom line here is that it’s a freedom – a freedom to make your our life decisions. It’s not the government business to provide me with any type of counseling. I have a Living Will and End of Life Directive in place. I made those decisions while I was able to really think about it and make some choices. The fact is though, that things change and tomorrow there could be a cure for the life threatening illness that you suffer from today. In Japan they venerate their elders. Here we treat them as disposable. The current administration is denying them rights that were already granted, as well as breaking promises. They didn’t give a promised cost of living increase to them and they raised the cost of Medicare that comes out of their SS checks to support the new health care. That makes me think that the socialist believe that older retired citizens are in fact expendable.

    • Mediawatcher

      And you think the chances of that changing will increase with a more conservative Congress? I don’t think it’s “socialists” who didn’t want to allocate that money. In addition, the Social Security cost-of-living formula is mandated by law; only changing the law will allow a different cost-of-living calculation. Think THAT’ll happen in the upcoming Congress? I doubt it.

      I agree that the calculation for Social Security increases does not account for the things that cost its recipients the most — housing and medical care, including prescriptions. I’d love to see that formula changed, but it would mean an increase in Social Security costs, and all the deficit-haters and tax-haters would never allow that. Besides, it gives you an opportunity to use the lack of increase as a sign we consider our elders disposable. (Does that mean Social Security itself is a sign we revere our elders?)

      • eddie47d

        Meteorlady; Saying that” liberals think the elderly are disposable” is more insane trash talk.

        • Dan az

          No eddiee
          I think what she is saying is that if you got rid of the elderly then there would be more money saved for you and your kind to leach off the dead.

          • Karolyn

            Such insane talk, Dan! It’s all totally ridiculous!

          • JC

            Karolyn, while it is insane…it isn’t necessarily ridiculous.
            It HAS happened before. Hitler exterminated some 12 million undesirable “gobblers of bread”….he was a socialist.

          • eddie47d

            Here comes the Hitler card,bull! You and Dan are insane!!!

          • JC

            Are you able to dispute the fact eddie?

    • hflashman

      meteorlady … bottom line is you espouse taking a freedom away from people because you simply don’t like people to have that freedom of choice.

      You are saying ‘I don’t want to do it, so no one should be allowed t do it”.

      So who’s espousing taking freedoms away? Think about that …

  • http://sanchezmanuel7@comcast.net LINDA FROM COLORODO

    AT TIMES LIKE THESE WE CAN BE UNCERTAIN ABOUT THE FUTURE CHANGES.
    THERE IS ONLY ONE THING WE CAN HOLD ON TO AND THAT IS THE heavenly
    FATHER, SON AND HOLY SPIRIT. I WAS DIAGNOSED WITH COLON CANCER
    IN 2006 AND HAD SURGERY BUT I AM STILL ALIVE AND THANKFUL. LIKE
    I SAID THE ONLY SURE THING IN LIFE WE CAN KEEP HOLDING ON TO IS
    OUR GOD OF MIRACLES, OUR TRUE AND WONDERFUL GOD.

    • Erik

      Thank you for sharing your fairy tale fantasy with us, in ALL CAPS, no less. I can picture you glued to your favorite t.v. program, PTL Club, of course, with a small dribble of drool running down your chin.
      Better check under your sofa to make certain that Satan isn’t hiding there, waiting to snatch you off to the “bad place”.
      (chuckle)

  • Dave

    The Oregon right to die would have never been implemented had the medical profession made stronger drugs available like heroine for instance. Nobody wants to die in pain but it’s alright to snuff them out. But god help us if we try and relieve their pain. Bad democrats bad.

    • Karolyn

      Dave, What quality of life do people have all doped up on morphine? Why be alive at all?

      • Angel Wannabe

        K, Why be alive at all?_ because its no ones dam business when they die except Gods, thats why!

  • Raggs

    Is there any guess at this time to the cost of a taxation of life?
    Yeah you know… Figure if your alive you must pay obama for that “right” in which he believes he holds the key too.
    So I think he will tax us for every year he lets us live in his world…

    • http://none Mike

      Raggs, And I bet the taxes collected for it will mysteriously dissappear into the general funds. Just like SS lock box right. :)Funny thing is the taxes start 4 years before the services. Seems like they know something they think we dont. That this is going to be way more expensive than the first estiment. Mike L.

  • Raggs

    Go figure this sorry son of a bitch obama is just starting his B.S.
    Lock-N-Load!

  • Eric Bischoff

    The stupidity and ignorance rages on. You know something is worth having a serious discussion over when the opponents and fear mongers give it a disingenuous and misleading name like Death Panels.

    The bottom line is that more than 80% of a familie’s worth gets eaten up and wiped out by medical expenses in the last years of their life. The greedy medical industrial complex is insuring that they always get their grubby little paws on everything you have left.

    And still you don’t think we should have REGULATED end of life discussions? Notice how different you feel when you call it what it really is! How many of you know an elder that has been sick for a long time in their 80′s and the medical nut jobs are trying to sell them on a transplant or some complicated and very expensive surgery they may never recover from?

    Personally at that point I would rather go on vacation or enjoy friends and and family at home with whatever time I have left. Or I might like to hear about safer, cheaper alternatives.

    The medical industrial complex and the military industrial complex is the reason we are broke.

    • Raggs

      Well then… Lets just leave it up to obama and his communist pigs to decide!!!!… your friend obama doesn’t care how much it will cost as long as he has that control ( very little )… on the other hand what the hell is wrong with living another year or two that the doctors can give you?

      No my friend your pos obama will not tell me when to die!

      • Eric Bischoff

        First of all he is not my friend and I did not vote for him. But I can acknowledge that like it or not he has accomplished a lot and he did in the worst of times. If all you can do is resort to name calling and idiotic accusations of communists then I feel sorry for you and you should be quiet as you are not bringing anything helpful to the table.

        Finally when we are broke and we are broke as a nation and as individuals then we will have to face the reality that we cannot have an extra year at any price. That is stupid too.

        • JC

          Accomplished a lot of what?
          Advancement of the NWO?
          Destruction of the economy?
          Destruction of the currency?

          You’re right, he’s been pretty damned busy alright.

          • Dan az

            JC
            Death tax and force them to sell the farm to pay the tax.Then sell there body parts and tax it as a luxury tax.Why not take over the hospitals and then we can charge everyone to keep then going while we charge them to use there tax dollars to pay our employees that now work for us.And if you dont get to them in time oh well we tax them when they die.

          • Eric Bischoff

            What has Obama done you ask?

            Like it or not here is a list.

            Presided over the most productive lame duck sessions in decades.

            Finally passed healthcare & support for 911 responders

            Repealed don’t ask don’t tell

            Ratified START arms reduction treaty.

            Extended Bush tax cuts for all but the poorest

            Provided travel expenses to families of fallen soldiers to be on hand when the body arrives at Dover AFB

            Reversed the policy of barring media coverage during the return of fallen soldiers to Dover Air Force Base

            Provided the Department of Veterans Affairs with more than $1.4 billion to improve services to America’s Veterans

            Signed the Children’s Health Insurance Reauthorization Act, which provides health care to 11 million kids — 4 million of whom were previously uninsured

            Issued executive order to repeal Bush era restrictions on federal funding for embryonic stem cell research

            Signed the Christopher and Dana Reeve Paralysis Act, the first piece of comprehensive legislation aimed at improving the lives of Americans living with paralysis

            Developed stimulus package, which includes approx. $18 billion for nondefense scientific research and development

            Signed the Weapons Systems Acquisition Reform Act to stop fraud and wasteful spending in the defense procurement and contracting system

            Issued executive order to close the prison at Guantanamo Bay

            Ended Bush administration’s CIA program of ‘enhanced interrogation methods’ by requiring that the Army field manual be used as the guide for terrorism interrogations

            Increased minority access to capital

            Established Credit Card Bill of Rights, preventing credit card companies from imposing arbitrary rate increases on customers

            Health Care Reform Bill, preventing insurance companies from denying insurance because of a pre-existing condition

            Health Care Reform Bill, allowing children to remain covered by their parents’ insurance until the age of 26

            Tax cuts for up to 3.5 million small businesses to help pay for employee health care coverage

            Tax credits for up to 29 million individuals to help pay for health insurance

            Expansion of Medicaid to all individuals under age 65 with incomes up to 133 percent of the federal poverty level

            Require health insurance plans to disclose how much of the premium actually goes to patient care

            Added 4.6 billion USD to the Veterans Administration budget to recruit and retain more mental health professionals

            Significantly increased funding for the Violence Against Women Act

            Lifted restrictions granting Cuban Americans unrestricted rights to visit family and send remittances to the island

            Eliminated subsidies to private lender middlemen of student loans and protect student borrowers

            Increased funding for national parks and forests by 10%

            Significantly expanded Pell grants, which help low-income students pay for college

            Expanded hate crime law in the US to include sexual orientation through the Matthew Shepard and James Byrd Jr. Hate Crimes Prevention Act

            Provided stimulus funding to boost private sector spaceflight programs

            Appointed nation’s first Chief Technology Officer

            Signed financial reform law establishing a Consumer Financial Protection Bureau to look out for the interests of everyday Americans

            Signed financial reform law requiring lenders to verify applicants’ credit history, income, and employment status

            Signed financial reform law prohibiting banks from engaging in proprietary trading (trading the bank’s own money to turn a profit, often in conflict with their customers’ interests)

            Signed financial reform law allowing shareholders of publicly traded companies to vote on executive pay

            Cut prescription drug cost for medicare recipients by 50%

            Provided $12.2 Billion in new funding for Individuals With Disabilities Education Act

            Extended Benefits to same-sex partners of federal employees

            Appointed more openly gay officials than any other president in US history

            The American Recovery & Reinvestment Act of 2009: a $789 billion economic stimulus plan

            Launched recovery.gov to track spending from the Recovery Act, providing transparency and allowing the public to report fraud, waste, or abuse

            Created more private sector jobs in 2010 than during entire Bush years

            Voluntary disclosure of White House visitors for the first time in US history

            Appointed first Latina to the US Supreme Court

            Promoted social responsibility through creation of serve.gov, a national database of volunteer opportunities

            Reversed ‘global gag rule’, allowing US aid to go to organizations regardless of whether they provide abortions

            Signed the Family Smoking Prevention and Tobacco Control Act, giving the FDA the authority to regulate the manufacturing, marketing, and sale of tobacco for the first time

            Signed New START Treaty – nuclear arms reduction pact with Russia

            Increased average fuel economy standards from 27.5mpg to 35.5mpg, starting in 2016

            Signed the Lilly Ledbetter Fair Pay Act, restoring basic protections against pay discrimination for women and other workers

    • http://none Mike

      Eric, Alot of us here realise the system needs some fixes. I just dont think the goverment is the one that should do the fixing. Too many years of seeing their fixes turn into major problems that need more fixing. Mike L.

      • Eric Bischoff

        Notice how you all conveniently dismiss the govt as a separate evil thing from us. We are the govt. The people that are there are either elected by majorities or they are hired by the elected officials.

        Many people are on medicaid and medicare and yes we should be having these discussions instead of stupid and misleading name calling. The people have been asking for soemthing to be done about healtcare costs and the medical industrial complex for many decades and now that something is finally passed all you people can do is call it Obamacare over and over like it’s only a bad thing.

        Like it or not something got done and some of it is a major improvement and the parts that aren’t are directly related to the fight over the public option conveniently relamed govt option to scare you. It is a public option and the majority of Americans want it and I would bet that eventually we will have it and that is what will finally keep the medical industrial complex in check and that will lower the costs.

        Can you imagine how free businesses would feel if they weren’t saddled with the responsibility to provide healthcare benefits to attract the best workforce? That alone would make american companies more competive.

        • JC

          Um No…we were supposed to be the government…but they started ignoring us some time ago.

          • Dan az

            JC
            Seems to me that the congress dose not have the right nor dose obumer to make such a law in the first place!The Constitution empowers Congress to regulate commerce “among the several states,” and no court has ever held that merely living in one of those states is itself a form of commerce “among the several states.” If the federal government can force Americans to engage in commerce by buying health insurance, it can insist that they purchase automobiles from bankrupt manufacturers, acquire securities from failing Wall Street concerns, become farmers by growing food in their yards, and exercise three times a week. That is, upholding this power would obliterate the constitutional scheme of limited government. There would be no need for Article 1, Section 8, other than one clause allowing Congress to regulate commerce.

          • JC

            That’s right Dan, they have no right to raid my pocket for my own good, or anyone else’s for that matter. It’s just another supremely twisted version of the Commerce Clause and a boon for socialist government control. In a word: Criminal.

          • Eric Bischoff

            And why wouldn’t they ignore us. We got fat and lazy. Ready for the picking. We let things get bad and the vultures swept in. We are all responsible.

  • Will-CA

    I’m 51 years old and have been paying for health insurance since I was 26 years old (after a wakeup call spent a week in the hospital and it wiped me out financially) spent thousands over the years. I’ve noticed in my life people who spend allot of time at their docs die young. I’m thankful for doctors have saved my life at least 3 times so far but they almost killed me twice as well. It matters not weather what law is passed or not life and death is personal.
    Before complicate our health system even further maybe we should look at the root causes of its failures. Over the last 10 years I’ve only needed medical assistance twice. Both times when I called for an appointment it was going to 4 weeks before I could see my doctor (Kaiser Health Insurance) that was too long to wait so I went to their so called walk in urgent care. Cost me more out of pocket had to wait over 6 hours to be seen resulting in very little help. Both times the nurses apologized to me and stated that they were compelled by law to treat everyone who comes thru the door and that 90% of their patients were illegal aliens that wouldn’t even pay them. So I (after paying over $70,000 for the last 10 years of coverage) have to wait behind those who have not paid into the system. Something wrong with that considering my next statement. I belong to a law enforcement club IFA they have from time to time events in Rosarito Beach, Mexico. The last time there was an event one of the guys had a heart attack and needed serious medical attention. Guess what even after the club giving them Ambulances and assistance over the years he was given a ride to the border no medical attention only a ride they would and will not treat any American due to liabilities.
    What the hell enough is enough. We are ignoring the root causes of our problems. Let’s get real send home the illegal aliens and lets start over and get back to common sense and basics.

  • eddie47d

    Ben Crystal is the one who belongs in the asylum. Everyone is concerned about their health so cost controls is an important issue. When is there a point of no return; with extreme sickness or dying and the amount of money that society can spend on each individual? This is an issue whether with Private insurance or some government plan. Young people can be born with problems that require millions of dollars of care and older folks have continual and costly medical problems. That’s life yet how much are you willing to pay in premiums to sustain the many scenarios. The right can talk about death panels yet are you willing to let millions die because of lack of insurance. That is death you know! Most folks pay less than a million in medical premiums (80years) so should you get cut off once you reach that level.Should they raise premiums once you reach that level. (from a thousand to two thousand). If it was your child that was dying and needs 2 million in care would you give up and let that child die. Are you going to be that death panel person for his/her life. Please,none of that Hitler saber rattling. A couple of “older” folks on here said that they have had more than one surgery and I bet that all the medicare premiums that they payed in didn’t cover the actual cost of those surgeries. Is that fair to the rest of the seniors or your fellow Americans of any age? Somebody else paid for those surgeries(at least part of it). So aren’t you spending someone elses money?? Are we all Americans in this together or should we all be cut off at a certain point. That question is for conservatives and liberals.

  • Karolyn

    Once again Mr. Crystal is at his game of exagerration and rabble-rousing. I’m sure he’s hoping that his “pay for slay” term gets picked up by all his followers. For one thing “practitioners” do not need to have graduated from medical school. There are nurse practitioners who have become more and more prevalent, taking the burden off doctors.

    • Dan az

      Karolyn
      Your right that there are nurse practitioners who have become more and more prevalent and with that comes obumercare that will be the only ones you will be seeing for now on.The doctors are told what to do by the goverment and what not to do.If you bother reading whats in the bill you will find they will not be treating you only nurse practitioners for now on.Good luck with that im sure they are just as good!

      • Karolyn

        I had a nurse practitioner several years ago and she was excellent. Doctors are not God. I take care of my onw health.

        • JC

          What is “Human Services”?

          • Karolyn

            JC – I answered that before. It is any profession working to help people, such as counseling, advocacy, social work, etc.

          • JC

            Yeah, I caught the answer later in another thread I think. Thanks.

  • Dan az

    the point is karolyn is you had a choice.
    Are these Obamacare cost-benefit boards and commissions — for example, the so-called Independent Payment Advisory Board penetratingly judging Medicare’s cost-effectiveness (without judicial review) — not going to determine whether certain Americans are going to continue living?

    ‘Fess up, Krugman, you owe Sarah Palin an apology for so often scandal-mongering her. Also, professor, aside from the abortion wars, don’t most Americans agree that the most fundamental of all our rights is the right to life? Not the government’s right to our lives.

    When you said “death panels” on that Sunday morning, you knew and meant what you were saying. As an economist dedicated to deficit-reduction you were not lamenting the coming of death panels. Clearly, you were affirming their inevitability under President Obama’s determination to prevent government subsidization of “extreme care.”

    • Dan az

      Time will come when they determine that it sill cost to much money for such a non productive investment.But it will be there choice not yours.

  • Dr. Death

    So, how about we make it a “suicide pact”…..
    YOU, the ‘practitioner and your auditing panel, will demonstrate what you are advocating, then I, the patient will make an informed choice based on
    1. Our discussion
    and
    2. My observation of your death throes.

    Might cut down a bit on the advocacy for premature end of life planning.

    • Dan az

      I second that Dr Death!

  • Angel Wannabe

    More info on insurance and the Government_ link below__Go Figure!_Ga’night mates!

    http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=245701

  • ’53 Korean Vet

    As for Death-Panel commissioners–paid by Fed.Govt (for good-old boys,
    that they choose as “Experts”)-”Can you say Graft-!?” Between my wife
    & I, we’ve had about $2400 per year for ‘Part B’ of Medicare deducted
    from our Soc.Sec.Retirement-! The Govt pays for some Medical Expense,
    but only maybe 30%, another 50% is paid by other Med. Insurance, so that left 20% from our own pocket-! Actually, we didn’t “clear” our premium payments–(So someone got the cash-balance on their bills-!) The question–”How many millions in salaries go to the death panels”!
    “Follow the Money-!”, (so you can see–the real story-!) I’m in an awkward position-! As a retired Korean Vet on Soc.Sec. of $12,000/yr–I’ve already spent 26% or $3200 of that on Charities & Politics! I
    grew up as a young Adult, & on 5 isolated occasions, I’m guilty of saving 5 separate lives before I was 38-! And my problem is this–I don’t know if I saved 3 Democrats & 2 Republicans, or vice versa! Mainly at the time, I didn’t think to ask them-! But as each event happened, I was glad–to just be handy, & to have things work-out for the Best-! True, I have no medals, or media-stories, but at those times, I didn’t believe I deserved any! But it does bother me now–because “Was I supposed” to “Hate” somebody-!? I’d thought at that time–that I had done the “Right Thing”-! (I think “Death-Panels” are
    Wrong-!) I had 3 ancestors abroad the Mayflower–so I also believe that “Thoughtless Abortions” are Wrong-! If you believe in Death, why
    come to America, where Life, Liberty & a gift of Happiness was born-!
    My ancestors had no TV’s, no radios, no washing-machines, no designer-
    jeans or shoes, no “Medicare” & no “Mickey-Mouse Watches”–but they had plenty of work to do, & so did their Kids-! “Death-Panels” are not
    a American Invention, but belong to Old European Customs-! Karl Marx
    is from this old ‘School’-! (But a lack of “Common-Sense” disqualifies
    anyone who doesn’t use it-!) Let’s talk about Sterilizing the Public, so that they can’t have Kids-! Why Does Medicare pays for “Abortions”,
    & now Let’s look “how Socialists” want to “Force” you to give up your right to have Kids-! (Let’s do this Secretly-!) In 1937 thru 1939, I saw X-ray machines in all shoe-stores, like “Buster-Brown” & others-!
    (Cabinet-box that got a x-ray view of your foot-bones, inside the shoe
    outlined-!) AMA Doctors got Congress to “Outlaw” them as “Dangerous”,
    & all such items were removed by Law-! What’s changed the Danger since
    then-? (“Think red-blood cells being destroyed, creates ‘Cancer’, & being made ‘Childless’–Kids & adults forced & exposed to “full-body”
    Scans, being made sterile w/o their permission-! (Your eyes aren’t to
    be “Guarded” from these x-rays–either-!) Sounds like this govt should
    be in trouble with a “Large Class-Action” lawsuit–worth billions of
    Dollars in fees by “smart-lawyers’–not from Obama’s Class-Mates-!
    Fact–todays X-ray techs wear a “Full-Body” lead apron, but they also
    ‘Step-out’ of the x-ray room–when the x-ray is shot-! (Ask any Dr.–
    “Why a Lead-Apron”-?) Because nobody wants to be “Sterilized” w/o
    their permission-! Plus, they don’t want “Cancers”-either-! What is it worth to have over 4 million kids & adults–”Forced” by their Govt”
    for “known chances” of being “Sterilized”? (Replace a “Home-Security”
    Director & President–they’ve already had their brains “Sterilized”!)

    • Eric Bischoff

      You are to be commended for your service but that does not excuse you from getting things wrong.

      Death Panels are an invention of the Extreme Conservative Right. What it really is and it should be properly called is END OF LIFE PLANNING. No one will be getting paid to kill you, that’s still the job of the Monsantos et al… and the police state.

      End of Life Planning is a necessity in this complicated world. If you are in your 80′s and unhealthy, should you be getting a transplant to possibly extend your life another year at a cost of $100,000.? Should you be getting very expensive open heart surgery? These are the questions that we need to answer. And the way to go about this is to have end of life counseling and planning. You and your family and doctors get together to plan what to do and what not to do. And your doctor gets paid for having that discussion. Plain and simple.

      There is nothing to be afraid of. Why would you let yourselves be manipulated like that?

      If you really want to fight against the Govt’s right to kill you then fight for the abolition of the Death Penalty, the rise of the police state and our never ending wars.

      • ’53 Korean Vet

        Eric– You are not even in the same “Ball-Park” to know History True
        Story-! Mine Clan is an Irish-Clan that was chosen by Henry VIII for
        complete “Genocide” of every man, woman & Child-! Some people have said–”That the Cultured World of the English would never stoop to that kind of morality-! Did you ever hear of a “Irish Potatoe Famine” in the 1850′s-!? It’s a Lie-! The Irishmen were Farmers–that lived on Farms with Pigs, Cattle, Chickens, goats etc. They also grew grains
        Oats, Barley & (?) You don’t starve-to-death, because your Potatoes
        failed-! Can you see the farce-? They had 40 regiments of English
        Troops that were ‘stripping the farms’ of all foods under bayonets &
        transporting 40 to 50 ships a day to England, leaving the Irish to
        starvation-! Don’t take my word–type in “Irish Holocaust,org” & see the True Map & story for yourself-! Comments by English commissioners
        “I fear only a million will starve–and that’s not enough to do us any
        good-!” (This was a planned extermination-!)

  • Robt Hauser

    The Constitutional right to life, liberty and pursuit of happiness includes, almost by definition, the right as an option to refuse life. How many people are bed ridden in hospitals today having life mechanically, electromechanically and pneumatically forced into them against their will and causing personal anguish and misery that flatly defies words? Don’t they also have the right to be free of that? The med racket…or American MAYHEM Association has, as always, a quite financial vested interest in FORCING people to live against their will for YEARS of personal agony no one on this thread could probably ever conceive. And they hide behind this limp wristed pretext that “as long as there’s life, there’s hope” Yeah? Not in America where they treat everything and CURE NOTHING because “treatments” that of course never work are far more lucrative than CURES like you can get in any other industrialized country but the “good ole”. As always in America…follow the god damned money: decades ago I publicly advocated the burning down of all the churches in this country and the erection of steeples on all the banks. At least that would be one honest thing this country did.

  • Gary Wise

    Every person should watch a movie called “Soya Green”. It will make chills run down your spine!!! The next step after death in the movie will shock you and probably will come true!!

  • Another Voice

    This article is such b.s.! All you have to do is to draw up an advance directive which states that you want to be kept alive as long as possible by any means possible, and that will keep you from any ‘death panel’ – except for the insurance companies, of course, when they decide to quit paying for your care. These are the real ‘death panels’, not the government. And what about the ‘death panel governor’ Jan Brewer who decided that the state of Arizona coudn’t afford to pay for life-saving organ transplants (presumably because Arizona needs the money to hunt down illegal Mexicans)?

  • Robert Paiva

    I don’t really expect to get a good response from this writing. But did you know that in 1966 the United States Social Security System had an in-excess of $74Billion that the Comunist Socialist Democrat Elected Congress voted to donate to North VetNAM as a rebuilding loan for their poppy fields (opium crops) thanks to guys like George H. Bush a Socialist Communist Demicrate and future member of the CIA- along with Henry Kissinger Socialist Communist Republican also with Texas Prez Lyndon B. Johnson another qustionable communist and gave the American people the shaft and said our Social Security System could afford the hit and the North VetNam Communist Gov. would pay us back when they got their crop upp and running. I bet you dumb folks didn’t know that. Here’s another one I bet YOU didn’t know? The Sociaists Communists Democrats want you to be a Patriot and serve your country – HONORABLY – THEN THEY WANT YOU TO (DIE FOR YOUR COUNTRY) – NO THEY DON’T WANT YOU TO LIVE. THEY WANT YOU TO DIE, STUPID! (YOUR A PATRIOT REMEMBER). ONLY PATRIOTS DIE NOT LIVE STUPID. Becuse if you live and return home and because you’r trained as a combat soldier you’r now considered a terrorist and a threat to your Sociaise Democratic Communist Government. I bet you still don’t get it? Let me explain it this way. YOU SERVED YOUR COUNTRY BECOUSE YOU LOVED YOUR COUNTRY THE UNITED SATES OF AMERICA. THEY WANT NO SURVIVORS THAT LOVE THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA! This is what I can still remember when I returned home to the good o’l USofA in July of 1966 from Nam and Korea at the Seattle Airport and got spit on while in Class “A” US Army Uniform. The Qustion the In-doctrinated Communist Youth Punk said: Why didn’t you (F..king die like your suppose to do you F..king patriot! THIS STATMENT IS STILL STAMPED AS A HOT IRON INTO MY MIND TODAY, AND NOW I’M 68 YEARS OLD. And I bet you dumbasses still don’t get-it! I don’t claim to be a communist Republican even though i usually vote that way – I’m definately not a communist demecorate, I will never vote that away. I’m a WHIG and you saya there are no Whigs well I’m no Connunuist and the American Socialist’s Communists Party, the communists they seem to run both parties? I can still remember when John F. Kennedy was the President of the United States, and the Primer of Russia, Nakita Kruschev said we’ll bury you. Join the Military and be a PATRIOT and they will pay to bury you. Get old like me and they will pay to bury you. YOUR RIGHT TO LIFE IS NOT LIFE, BUT DEATH!

    • ’53 Korean Vet

      Robert Pravia–You’re wrong–it was Senate House Leader L.B. Johnson, who stripped the Social Security Surplus from the Fed.Govt, & used it
      for College Funding for Minorities, & Low-rent Apartment Housing for
      the stated “Poor-income” Democrats, it wasn’t used for the original
      “Old-Age Retirement Funding”, it’s the same group who demanded robbing
      the Senior-Citizens of 1/2 Trillion Dollars, so the Democrats could
      “Fund Demand-Abortions” (You ‘Fund & Kill 6 babies’ then, you can say
      to 2 Senior-Citizens–I know you paid-but there’s no funding left for
      your “life-saving” operations-! (This way, you used 2 stones to “Kill
      Eight People-! At Bargain Prices-! Obama never claimed to be Soviet, but he read “Saul Alinsky’s Book” How to plan a Overthrow of America-!
      A question on,”Alinskys escaped from a Iron Curtain–or were they allowed to transplant as a Planned Soviet-Plant Group-! Your last name is interesting to me–has your family been in America, Long-?

  • Boo Ewald Taylor

    Being a moderate makes it easy for me to say I believe in euthanasia. I, for one, would not want to linger, suffering day to day, waiting and hoping for God to take me. Most of us would not want to selfishly keep our suffering and dying pet alive, just to make ourselves feel better. We all know someone whose spirit is trapped in a useless body, they just want to be set free. My family and friends know how I feel if I should be in that situation.

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