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Pauls Take Aim: Ron Announces Presidential Bid, Rand Compares Obamacare To Slavery

May 17, 2011 by  

Pauls take aim: Ron announces Presidential bid, Rand compares Obamacare to slaveryRepresentative Ron Paul (R-Texas) has officially thrown his hat into the GOP Presidential ring.

On ABC's "Good Morning America" on May 13, Paul revealed that he will vie for the White House for a third time. In 1988, he ran as a Libertarian and, in 2008, he fell short in the Republican primaries.

"The time has come around to the point where the people are agreeing with much of what I've been saying for 30 years, so I think the time is right," Paul told the media outlet.

According to FOX News, Paul raised more than $1 million through an online fundraiser on May 5, the same day as the first GOP debate featuring Paul and four other Presidential hopefuls.

The Congressman's son, Senator Rand Paul (R-Ky.), recently made headlines after he equated President Barack Obama's healthcare law to slavery.

The Tea Party favorite — who, like his father, is a physician — said that the "right" to healthcare means that Americans can show up at his front door and "conscript" him to provide medical treatment.

Paul added that the "implied use of force" in Obamacare "enslaves" doctors, nurses, assistants and all other employees at medical facilities.

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  • C. Wendt

    What Rand Paul said was that the claim of a legally-enforceable “right” to have private individuals serve you should logically imply that it would be valid, in the event that they were unwilling, to forcibly coerce said individuals to perform services, which would, by definition, be slavery; hence, laws which enshrine a positivist “right” to private individuals’ services are principally wrong for the same reason that slavery is.

    • 45caliber

      And he is right. Would you wish to work at a job where you were “required” to serve someone at their convenience day or night, regardless of what else you had to do? Like sleep?

      • http://naver samurai

        No way on God’s good earth. FOR GOD AND COUNTRY!

      • TK

        45Cal
        You just described the military. LOL

        • 45caliber

          But they volunteered for that.

  • TIME

    I will Vote for Ron Paul again, he is a good man, saddly one of the very few in DC at this point in our history.

    As to Barry care, let me just say this;
    When a government “MANDATES” by Law that its citizens buy a product. That in fact opens {Pandora’s Box} to far greater control over the populace than any Government should be allowed to hold, as in ever.

    (As I have said before and will keep saying this Barry care is nothing more or less than total control over the Populace,) “it has nothing to do with health care at all.”

    This bent law opens wide the door to the government to tell YOU where you can live, if you can own a home, have a child, or even if you can live, what you can eat, what you can wear, whom you can see.
    Let alone what kinda of car you can drive let alone be able to even own if your so lucky.
    But saddly the Mindless MONKEYS can’t grasp that as they still think they can “get something for FREE.”

    But be that as it may the MONKEYS that fell for the lets pass it to see whats in it Clan; don’t care about their freedoms of choice, or FREEDOM in any measure as they are far more intent on what “FREE STUFF” they think they can get from the other class’s of people who they so dispise.
    Yet the ramifications of such a LAW is to great of a brain twister for the simple minded worthless eaters, when the word “FREE” is involved they become like rabid dogs tearing apart whom ever stands in their way.

    Is that PC enough for you MONKEYS who post here?

    For all the Female’s who don’t understand the impact on just your health alone perhaps this will help you better understand this laws its impact on you.
    You have a 1 out of 5 chance of having Breast cancer in your life thats a fact.
    Yet Barry care states that Breast cancer screaning can not be started until after the age of 50.
    And oddly as 98% of all Females are found to have Breast Cancer, between the ages of 20 – 40, saddly these persons will be long dead before they can even be tested for such. WOW – What a Great Plan.

    • Dennis Patrick

      Does your concern over breast cancer extend to Planned Parenthood’s exams and diagnosis? Hope the women you love don’t live in Mitch Daniels’ Indiana.

      • http://naver sook young

        I live in Indiana and we have programs set up to where women can get mammograms without going to Planned Parenthood. Sorry, but I don’t support any organization that performs abortions. All the women I know have their own OB/GYN doctor and tend to see them on a yearly schedule. Mine even has his office send me a message reminding me it has been a year since my last examination. Sorry Dennis, but we don’t need Planned Parenthood in Indiana. Please stop seeing things on the left and try to see the whole picture. Thank you.

        Sook Young
        Wife of the Samurai

    • Mike N.

      When a government mandates that its citizens buy a product like say auto insurance.it opens a pandoras box of abuses.

  • Jon

    “Paul added that the “implied use of force” in Obamacare “enslaves” doctors, nurses, assistants and all other employees at medical facilities.”

    Funny guy,
    * LOL *

    • Kevin Beck

      I think you miss the point when you see humor in Senator Paul’s statement.

      For something to legitimately be a “right,” it must not interfere with anyone else. Your right to life does not interfere with anyone else’s for example. But the “right” to health care means that someone else (in this case, a medical practitioner) must give up something to accomodate you. This is the entirety of the reasoning, which I would suggest is more sound than your reason for rejection of the statement.

      • Jovianus

        I’m not following the train of thought you put forth Kevin. By saying someone has to do their job (i.e. provide healthcare services0 and they will receive compenation for doing the job…how is that ‘enslaving’ them? ”

        I’m trying to figure out where the “implied use of force” comes into the issue?

        This whole series clouds the real point. With a few major insurance companies having an oligarhcy in the insurance industry, and no system in place to create a balanced marketplace of supply and demand (since the commodity is needed, there is no choice but to obtain it), what creates the balance ? In theory, at some point the number of people unable to afford healthcare insurance will increase to a point where a price cap is reached…but that leaves out a significant percentage of the population which cannot afford healthcare. What is the solution there?

        It leaves but two choices. Cost us, the taxpayers, gadzillions more in extra cost via emergency room “insurance” or leaving millions to fend for themselves and burden us, the taxpayer, with those costs. There is a third alternative available if you desire to do away with Romneycare/Gingrichcare/Obamacare. And that is massive regulation of the healthcare industry setting prices and services.

        • 45caliber

          Jovi-anus:

          Salaries are set on a normal 40 hour work week. If the government says that you will get this amount and only this amount, then they are doing the exact same thing as the plantation owners who told their slaves that they would get what food, clothing, and shelter for their work that the owners chose to give them. According to your argument, the slaves were paid just like the doctors are going to be paid and therefore shouldn’t have rejected that work and orders.

          Doctors, because you normally can’t schedule emergencies, have to be available and working at all hours. With the salary, they will NOT be paid more for those hours worked. As I said below, interns are expected and required to work as much as 120 hours a week for a base salary. I don’t know ANY doctor that wants to return to those hours of work without pay. Do you?

          • Kinetic1

            45,
            Simply put, you are wrong. Anyone who has ever worked above the rank and file knows that a salaried employee’s wage is not based on a 40 hour week. In most cases a person who is paid a salary rather than an hourly wage is expected to work over 40 hours on a regular basis. Tell me how many managers, VPs and CEOs that you know who do not regularly work well over 40 hours a week. Yes, doctors are special in that they are often called in at all hours, but that is not a secret. Back when my father-in-law was practicing medicine doctors seemed to understand that they had chosen a life of service and that that often meant giving more of ones self than say a grocer. For some it was very lucrative, but that wasn’t the point. Now it seems the majority of medical students want to specialize in areas that allow for a more structured practice and a big pay off. Maybe public health care is what we need to return to those days when a doctor was in it for rewards other than riches?

          • independant thinker

            Kinetic1 …………. While the basis might not be 40 hours in every case (in my case it was 48 hours) there is usualy an hourly babis for salaried workers. The fact that they are expected to work over that hourly basis when/if needed to do their job does not mean it does not exist.

          • 45caliber

            Kenetic:

            I’m afraid you are barking at the wrong person on this one. I’ve worked as salary since I graduated from college.

            Salary pay does allow some allowance for a person to work OT – IF NEEDED. It does NOT allow for someone to work it all the time and in excessive hours. Salary pay is meant to keep good people working for you and excessive OT will simply run them off.

            I will work OT in any emergency – and will work it around the clock in necessary. I have and I will likely do it again. BUT – if the employer starts insisting that I need to work it as a general condition of employement, then I’ll find a new job as fast as I can. He isn’t paying me enough.

            IF the government is willing to pay a doctor half a million or more a year as a salary then I might see the doctor working some over time. But this is a bureaucrat setting the pay scale. And I’ve never seen a bureaucrat voluntarily pay someone more than he himself is making – after all, the bureaucrat is in charge so he should get the most money.

          • 45caliber

            Kenetic:

            Doctors took their job knowing they were going to have to work OT. After all, you can’t schedule emergencies. BUT they also get paid for them. The specialists like a 40 hour week but most family doctors are willing to work OT to help their patients. Actually I suspect most family doctors work at least 50 hours a week if not more on occasion.

            BUT … the system as specified by Oblamacare insists that they MUST see everyone regardless of the time or how long it takes. And there isn’t enough doctors presently in the field. (In the US the numbers of graduates from medical school is controlled by the government, not the number of students who want to be a doctor as other fields are.) I’ve heard several reports that up to 60% of the existing doctors are thinking seriously of retiring or quitting once Oblamacare goes into action – particularly if their OT time goes up. They have the right to have a life too, you know. If that happens, we will be so short of doctors that those who do continue to work will definitely be swamped.

            So you seem to be living in a dream world when you believe that there will be so many doctors that they can only occassionally work OT and will be happy to take any income as long as they can treat patients.

      • Kinetic1

        Kevin,
        If your overly simplistic view of rights would suggest that I have very few rights indeed. Why, if I choose to drive a van it may interfere with another person’s ability to park! My right to keep my lawn mowed may interfere with someone’s right to sleep in! In other words, your argument does more to suggest the absurdity of Paul’s suggestion than to lend it any credibility.

        • Jovianus

          Kinetic..please explain how Romneycare/Gingrichcare/Obamacare “enslaves’ the medical practictioner? Serious. Do your job and you receive compensation for it. That’s ‘enslavement”?

          • 45caliber

            Jovi-anus:

            When you are informed that you WILL work for a set salary and WILL work all overtime as determined is needed by the government, it is indeed slavery. Doctors at present can charge a patient extra for their time if they are forced to work weekends and nights. But with the salary the government sets, they will not be able to do so. In fact, they will not be able to charge for any hours over the traditional 40 work hours a week – but they will be required to work those hours.

            Nurses are already caught in that mess in some hospitals. The hospital requires them to work as much as 6-12 hour days a week. And the hospitals can’t understand why they continue to lose nurses. With the government in charge, the nurses (and doctors) will have little or no say in how much time they work or where they work. After all, the hospitals ALL need nurses and doctors.

            Interns now receive a salary – but are forced to work as much as 120 hours a week at no additional pay since they have little say in where they can intern. All doctors expect the government insist they return to those hours.

            Go ask your own doctor if you don’t believe me. I at least talk to those I know. In fact, it was the first thing I did when this whole mess came up.

          • Bitter Libertarian

            Allow me to offer a few FACTS-> Since word meaning is lacking these days:
            We’ll start with a single dfinition:
            lib·er·ty 
            1. freedom from arbitrary or despotic government or control.
            2. freedom from external or foreign rule; independence.
            3. freedom from control, interference, obligation, restriction, hampering conditions, etc.; power or right of doing, thinking, speaking, etc., according to choice.

            Next we’ll explore a word used in the healthcare Bill: Mandatory

            Definition:
            man·da·to·ry   

            1. authoritatively ordered; obligatory; compulsory: It is mandatory that all students take two years of math.
            2. pertaining to, of the nature of, or containing a command.
            3. Law . permitting no option; not to be disregarded or modified: a mandatory clause.

            Liberty & Mandatory CONFLICT IE: OPPOSITE. ;)

            Next Goverment ENFORCED
            en·force   

            1. to put or keep in force; compel obedience to: to enforce a rule; Traffic laws will be strictly enforced.
            2. to obtain (payment, obedience, etc.) by force or compulsion.
            3. to impose (a course of action) upon a person: The doctor enforced a strict dietary regimen.

            So the Govt is going to ENFORCE Participation as stated above by FORCE.

            To close the deal lets look at waht Force means:

            Definition: FORCE   
            1. strength or power exerted upon an object; physical coercion; violence: to use force to open the window; to use force on a person.
            2. Law . unlawful violence threatened or committed against persons or property.
            3. to compel, constrain, or oblige (oneself or someone) to do something: to force a suspect to confess.
            4. to put or impose (something or someone) forcibly on or upon a person: to force one’s opinions on others.
            5. to compel by force; overcome the resistance of: to force acceptance of something.
            6. to obtain or draw forth by or as if by force; extort: to force a confession.
            7. to rape.
            8. to make one’s way by force.

            I think a 3rd grader would be able to see that this health care bill is ANTI LIBERTY & ANTI FREEDOM.

            Questions from the floor?

          • TIME

            Oh Bitter,
            First off, you just made me LMAO……

            Good one.

          • Bitter Libertarian

            Allow me to help…

            Since we reviewed the definition of mandatory…allow me to offer the definition of Slavery:

            slav·er·y   /ˈsleɪvəri, ˈsleɪvri/ Show Spelled
            [sley-vuh-ree, sleyv-ree]
            –noun
            1. the condition of a slave; bondage.
            2. the keeping of slaves as a practice or institution.
            3. a state of subjection like that of a slave: He was kept in slavery by drugs.

            Do I need to explain that enslavement & slavery are relater? No? good…lets continue…

            Since Doctors are MANDATED (please review the other definitions)
            Dictating their compensation for their work and NOT allowing (anti-liberty) them Freedom of Choice in their field of work…they are by definition SLAVES. Even more so because SLAVERY does not have anything to do with compensation or lack of, but by the SUBJECTION of their Labor paid or unpaid.
            Questions from the Floor?

          • Jovianus

            Why BL…you are advocating anarchy…or at least communism. Why have a job if you’re forced to work for pay?

            So maybe we can amend the health care law and state that if you want to put in a 40 hour work week, you get paid for 40 hour work week.

            Enslavement…jeesh. Talk to your boss (or if you are an employer, talk to your employees) and tell them working for pay is enslavement and you’re against it. See how far that gets you.

          • Bitter Libertarian

            Thank You-Thank You-Thank You…You Just confirmed you CANNOT READ ENGLISH!

            If the Occupation I work in were changed to MANDATORY…thats Enslavement! If my Profession becomes OWNED by the Govt and they say if your a doctor we set the wages, NOT the Free market, and they ELIMINATE Free Market Medical Practice, thats Enslavement!

            Your word comprehension score: 5
            Your word manipulation score: 95

          • Jovianus

            BL…again…if you are in a amangement position, and you tell your employer that you will work a 40 hour week and no more unless your salary is increased…my guess is you’ll be looking for another job.

            Now where does the health care reform act mandate doctors working weekends and being available 24/7?

          • Bitter Libertarian

            “BL…again…if you are in a amangement position, and you tell your employer that you will work a 40 hour week and no more unless your salary is increased…my guess is you’ll be looking for another job.”

            Agree 100%. Now how about if the Federal Govt steps in and says: “You no longer have the same customer list. We have now given 200 more people rights to your service, free to them. We will compensate you for your time at a rate we choose. Additionally, your old customers are now part of the same program as your new”

            “Now where does the health care reform act mandate doctors working weekends and being available 24/7?” Nowhere did I say it did, I never discussed a Doctors working hours.

            Now I will say that the Doctor I know, has expressed a serious dislike of what the healcare reform implies, and that is increased patients, lower compensation for services. Therefore to balance the “old rate” with the “new rate” Doctors will need to work longer hours and see more patients. I doubt 24/7 is real, but One doctor I know has begun an exit strategy from the medical profession for this move by the Govt. he states he is not alone, and his collegues are right behind him. A pretty level headed guy I was shocked when he explained his plans.

          • 45caliber

            BL:

            You are quite right. The local doctors here are also looking to retire (in come cases, retire early) or go into some other field. Since it is definate that the government will insist that they treat far more patients, they will have to work far more time.

            In addition, a doctor’s costs also includes other factors such as insurance. One doctor I knew 20 years ago paid $10,000 A MONTH in malpractice insurance (he was a surgeon and considered a high risk profession) AT THAT TIME. He had to get it by charging his patients. Further, all doctors I know have to pay rent or own an office. They have to have at least one nurse to help in the office. They have to have a receptionist to handle appointments. And they have to have an accountant to handle the paperwork of filing insurance claims, keeping up with taxes, etc. They have to buy equipment and keep it maintained.

            I didn’t see anything in Oblamacare that said the government was going to take over any part of this. Nor did it state that doctors could no longer be sued. So the doctor must continue these payments out of his income. Is some bureaucrat going to give a doctor enough to do that in addition to his own pay? I seriously doubt it.

      • Nadzieja Batki

        Very good post.

  • jim capy

    Ron Paul says what I want to hear. He is the only voice in the wilderness of deceit. We are paying 40 cents interest on every dollar we borrow to keep the office opened. Get out of Iraq and Afghanistan. Forget about Pakistan. Open up our own resources for energy and there are plenty. If Obama is reelected we are finished as a first rate World Leader.

    • Christin

      jim capy,

      I second ALL of that!

      Vote for Ron Paul 2012.

      • http://naver sook young

        Can I third that? Thank you.

        Sook Young
        Wife of the Samurai

    • Matt Newell

      Probably finished as a second rate country too!

  • Robin from Arcadia, IN

    Ron Paul’s outspoken ideas are not inline with the Republican party. He may have thrown his hat in, but he will not get the nomination. The GOP had better be coming up with an outstanding candidate, or we are doomed.

    • Fly By Night

      *Judge Moore* will have my vote (if he decides he wants to be the next President…)

    • David

      Yea Neut blew it right away. He might as well drop out. Mitch will announce soon, I like him.

      Forget Romney “the moderate”. We need someone like Ron Paul….just not sure if he can survive the pending battle.

      • Christin

        David,
        Romney… “the Moderate”???
        Are you kidding… he’s a MA progressive liberal…
        Ever hear of Romneycare??? Sound anything like obamacare?
        MA is sinking in healthcare debt.

        • Bitter Libertarian

          Yes, and now the state of mass is suing its citizens for lack of participation in the Healthcare program! Absolutely Criminal!

    • 45caliber

      Robin:

      They will accept Ron Paul only if they have no other choice and still want to be a viable party. He won’t obey the RINOs who are presently in power in the GOP. They don’t think that is right. On the other hand they did accept Reagon when they had no choice – and he didn’t follow the RINOs either.

    • Christin

      Robin,
      I don’t think any of us are in line with the Republican party anymore.

      WE are Constitutional Conservatives…

      We believe in… Freedom and Liberties and Rights granted by God as stated in our Founding Documents, Limited Small gov, Reducing the Deficet, Cut Spending, Cut gov buerocracies, cut waste and fraud, get out of the three muslim wars in the Middle East, personal responsibility, all following the Rule of Law no matter station in life, secure borders, state and national sovereignty, Lower taxes, eliminate FED, IRS,FDA, EPA, FCC, NEA, Energy Commission,…, less regulations to be a Producing country again, and being oil independant (Drilling for oil, gas and mining for coal)…

  • dan

    Is it too much for me to hope that he’ll take on Michelle Bachman
    as a number two…the ONLY other Republican I would consider to be
    worthy ?

  • dan

    …I must amend to say I have no quarrel with Sarah,who indeed has proved worthy by her work in Alaska,it’s just ….
    I have to admit I’m not sure whether I’m a Libertarian,Constitutional
    Conservative or Tea-Partier…or as I’ve described myself :
    a Jeffersonian Democrat (I love seeing lib’s heads spin around and explode..lol’s)

    • Bitter Libertarian

      I would only offer that when Texas TP’rs had their candidate Sarah Shot her down, hard-fast-cold. Shes No Supporter of Liberty, not really.

    • Christin

      dan,
      Sarah’s on the Conservative side, but she has made some mistakes… she supported Progressive McCain instead of the TeaParty candidate for the Senate in that state. The Progressive media BEAT her up and she recoiled and was I feel retreated with the constant hits on her and her family.

      The Left hates her, because she is sincere, sensible, and down to earth, and that scares the heck out of them as they don’t live in reality, but in a fake utopia where ‘Self’ is the Leader.

      Any one who support God being in Control of their life…. is an enemy of the Left who wants to do as they please without the conscience of God as Lord over their head..

      • Bitter Libertarian

        Sarah made no mistakes, she made those choices herself. Until people hold politicians fully accountable..they will continue to make what you call ‘mistakes” over and over until our Constitution is in ashes…

      • Nadzieja Batki

        Palin is a female version of Obama.

        • http://naver sook young

          I don’t think so. I think Hillary Clinton would be more like Obama. Thank you.

          Sook Young
          Wife of the Samurai

          • TK

            Bingo, Sook Young!

        • usmadgirl

          Nadzieja Batki,

          You HAVE to be joking!?!

  • don

    this man would get my vote over anyone else. anyone else would be the same. rep or dem. if he cant get the republican nomination, go independent. we’re due for a change.

  • Matt

    I’d vote for Dr. Paul if I could. I can’t because i am not a citizen (a legal Permanent Resident of almost 20 years). What I can do however is tell you that having come here from a socialist madhouse called USSR, I am disgusted to see the lying socialist baffoon America has installed as its president. People of this country have been dengerously (for themselves) complacent and should wake up before obama creates irreversible damage. The clock is ticking fast.

    • Bitter Libertarian

      You are 100% correct Matt.

    • Nadzieja Batki

      So why aren’t you a citizen. What’s the hold up.

      • Matt

        I see no benefit in becoming a citizen at this point. I faithfully pay my taxes anyway, am too old for military duty and prefer to keep my options open for future purposes, just in case America chooses to continue on its present course.

        • http://naver samurai

          Maybe he’s hiding things like Obama bin Laden. FOR GOD AND COUNTRY!

  • steve in AZ

    Remember that every potus that has gone up against the international banking cartel has had attempts on his life and in some cases they were successful.

    One man can’t do it alone. If we send Dr. Paul to the White House, we must send like minded people to congress to support him, and we must remember that our votes are only the first step in involvement.

    Given the opportunity, I’ll vote for no other candidate. And I’ll pray to my unpopular Christian God to keep him safe from the evil syndicate.

    God Bless Ron Paul, and thank God for him. God Bless America.

    • Bitter Libertarian

      Ron Paul isnt perfect, but his policies are ROOTED in OUR CONSTITUTION! What more do you want or NEED in a Candidate?

      However, I sadly believe that he will nearly have to wage war on the Corruption in American Goverment (like Jackson did), and if he does I’ll be behind him 100%. Ron Paul gets in, there will be blood on the street, but not because he put it there. It will be put there by the Globalists, Military Industrial Complex, CFR, the Non-Federal Non-Reserve, Lobbyists, and very probably the CIA.

      How Ironic it may be that the Man who has the best chance of restoring our Republic may lead to a revolution that decides our future & our nations fate. Ron gets in History will be made.

      Dont expect an easy ride though…There is no growth without pain, and Freedom isnt Free folks. Keep ALLOT of Powder dry! ;)

  • Dennis Patrick

    Since we have had universal health care for seniors since the 1960s, have the doctors Paul been conscripted already? On the contrary, doctors have make a ton of money off of medicare. So is this just another scare tactic by a couple of pathetic self-interested elitists who wrap their opposition to the expansion of an existing (and quite successful) program in a phony cloak of liberty and constitutionality?

    • 45caliber

      Dennis:

      You should actually check your sources when you insist they make a lot of money off Medicare. My doctor seldom breaks even on it and accepts it only because he knows the elderly can’t get treatment elsewhere since most doctors won’t accept new patients – they have too many on Medicare now. And every time the government decides to cut the amount they pay the doctors (based on nothing more than a need to reduce spending somewhere so they can get more money to spend buying votes) more doctors are cutting the number of Medicare patients they can afford to accept.

      The only “doctors” making money off Medicare are the few who are illegally faking claims, etc. for that purpose. And those generally are caught and sent to prison.

      • Dennis Patrick

        You must have a lazy or incompetent doctor. Doctors salaries have risen from $15,000/yr to $186,000/yr (specialists even more – almost $340,000/yr). Source: Federal Bureau of Labor Statistics. It is pretty well known that a surge of income to phsysicans followed the implementation of Medicare – this surge driven by people over 65. Even medical / health care sector staff wages have increased.

        So, how does Dr. Paul call this slavery? He may not have known this – but slaves didn’t make any money. How unhinged from reality can he get?

        • Nadzieja Batki

          What is the cost of living? How much do doctors pay for malpractice insurance, how many workers do they hire for in office work?
          Do you even know the economics of physicians?
          I forgot that envy and greed and thievary is how you see doctors. Prove it.

        • GeorgeE

          I believe many doctors and hospitals are “gaming” the system to “milk” as much money out of Medicare as they can because rates are set below their costs. Worst yet, I’m pretty sure our politicians know what’s going on and chose to look the other way. This keeps patients and health care providers reasonably “happy”, but it puts a big financial burden on the system. But since our government can print or borrow more money when they want to, they just take the easy path, which costs the taxpayer more money than it should.

      • Jovianus

        45…would it be more accurate to say they aren’t losing money but they aren’t making the money they could having non-Medicare patients?

        So let me pose to you a question…

        Since the private marketplace only created a skyrocketing costly health care system, what would you see as an alternative for those increasing numbers who can’t afford health insurance? Bearing in mind if they cannot afford health care, we end up with the tab via e-room health care and so forth.

        Would it not be a better system if we said “go for it” to the private market, and offered a public option? (BTW….the excuse that government would drive private insurance out of business clashes with the mantra government can’t do anything as efficient as the private marketplace)

        • Bitter Libertarian

          Would it not be a better system if we said “go for it” to the private market, and offered a public option?

          Sure, and along those lines, I for one would not oppose Obamacare if it wasnt MANDATORY.

        • 45caliber

          Jovianus:

          The reason the cost of medical care (not just doctors but all of it) is rising so quickly is due to insurance costs and malpractice suits. And most of that is driven by the requirements the government is placing on insurance companies.

          For instance, the government mandates that all insurance companies MUST include the ability for someone who wants a sex change operation to be able to get one covered by the insurance. (I use this as an example because 1) it is required and 2) not that many people use it.) The companies must be able to cover that cost or they will go bankrupt and out of business. They can’t charge the person getting the sex change operation for the cost so they have to split the cost among everyone. That means that the cost for insurance for EVERYONE goes UP by the amount they estimate will be required to be paid out.

          Due to court suits, hospital emergency rooms MUST run a variety of tests whether needed or not. I recently passed out due to a coughing spell that kept me from breathing. The hospital had to run tests for six hours on my heart in case I might have had a heart attack. And many other things with blood tests. Total cost for about 8 hours at the hospital – over $8,000. But how much of that was due to those tests – the ones they HAD to make or someone might sue them for millions?

          Further, have you checked the costs of ambulances, etc? Most people don’t. My wife had a car accident about five years ago. She was carried about six miles to a parking lot where a helicopter picked her up and carried her to a hospital. It was $900 for a six mile ride on the ambulance and $14,000 for the 36 mile ride in the helicopter.

          So I don’t blame the doctors for all those rises in costs. In fact, the ambulance and helicopter were county-run – government if you will.

          Do you want to get rid of the extra costs? Do as Texas did. Make a limit on how much someone suing can collect. (Our limit is actual costs plus no more than $100,000) It cut the insurance rates by half or more for doctors. It also cut the court suits to those that should be filed rather than everyone trying to get rich. Those people went to other states. There are a couple of other things that could also be done such as allowing you to buy insurance from any company in the US. It could also be done by allowing you to buy what insurance you need, not what the government mandates that you must have. Want a sex change operation? Pay for it. If you don’t want it, don’t take that part of the insurance.

          As I said. Don’t blame the doctors.

          • Nadzieja Batki

            Thank you for a great and realistic post. Texas was a sue happy state where it was thought doctors had deep pockets.

        • 45caliber

          Jovianus:

          “(BTW….the excuse that government would drive private insurance out of business clashes with the mantra government can’t do anything as efficient as the private marketplace)”

          They can’t. Ever. They have far too much overhead to do it as efficiently as the private marketplace. Particularly since they now pay about twice as much as private markets do for the same jobs.

          And as for a “Public Option”. I have no problem with them competeing with the insurance companies at all – as long as they keep their public option paying for itself. Why should I have to pay for it as well as my insurance just because others don’t want insurance?

          And don’t worry about the non-insured. All hospitals by law MUST take anyone who can’t afford to pay. And all have ways to insure the bills are paid when you can’t. So don’t try to insist that these people have no way to get medical care. How often do you hear of someone dying in a hospital parking lot because they don’t have insurance or a way to pay? I can’t remember the last time I heard of that.

        • Nadzieja Batki

          We are paying for illegals’ care and we are paying for indigents’care. These people in themselves have more than normal amount of illnesses and care is costly. They are not paying and they get more than their due.

      • 45caliber

        Dennis:

        You should check a few things as I said. A doctor’s pay is $180,000 a year? Does that include him paying the office staff too? How about his office expenses like rent, etc? Are you saying that a doctor, who spent 10 years in training while you were drawing welfare payments, should get no more than you do? That education shouldn’t be considered part of salary? That skills shouldn’t be considered as part of salary?

        It certainly sounds as if you are too greedy to worry about your lack of qualifications while you would insist your doctor have them – but that he shouldn’t be paid for those qualifications.

  • 45caliber

    Rand Paul is right. The Democrats want to do just that. It has always been a thorn in the Demo side that doctors can sometimes afford to run against a lawyer for positions in Congress. They want to insure ONLY lawyers get those jobs. So now they want to force doctors to work at what they do without being able to gain the money to run against them.

    Further, if you consider the doctor’s (or nurse’s) work hours, Oblamacare will be forcing the doctors and nurses to work for as much as 100 hours a week at a salary set by some bureaucrat. If you consider their wages against the hours they will work, they will barely get minimum wage. People don’t mind working long hours IF THEY DECIDE IT IS NEEDED THEMSELVES but no one likes to be forced to do it at no additional pay – exactly what Oblamacare says they must do. And, to top it off, they will be restricted in where they can invest any extra money they might have. (After all, you can’t allow them to make a lot of money. They might decide to give up medicine and run for Congress, putting some deserving lawyer out of work!)

    Most of the doctors I know are seriously thinking of retiring or changing professions once this kicks in. And a lot of nurses are doing the same thing. My daughter-in-law once worked in Kuwait – she is thinking she might need to go back there to work.

    • Jovianus

      Romneycare/Gingrichcare/Obamacare does not mandate a doctor’s compensation or hours worked. Unless it is from a government health care plan which sets costs and fees for certain services. The existing health care reform does not create a schedule of fees which the insurance industry has to pay and not exceed. That’s the insurance indistry’s wet dream scenario. Capped on what they have to pay and no cap on what they can charge…oh wait, that’s what they were doing before the reform….

      • Bitter Libertarian

        Strange, I have a Brother Inlaw who works in Mass. he and others in his profession are all very strongly against Obamacare, for exactly what you “state” isnt so. Now these fellows are pretty secure, and dare I say wealthy. Are you saying that these and thousands of other Doctors are all tin hat wearing fools? I forgot one key factor…My Brother in law is a staunch Democrat, Who Voted against Obama because he and others realized this would destroy his practice.

        I find what you state anorexic and lacking Facts….these men (not my fav crowd) that are against obamacare much more valid and truthful.
        Ironic to see Libertarians Republicans & Democratic Doctors agreeing on common ground.

        • Jovianus

          BL…to be clear, you are stating the health care reform act mandates what hours a doctor works?

          • Bitter Libertarian

            No, I am stating that a Doctors livelyhood/private business is now under Govt Control. The Volume of patients will dictate the hours, and yes this is NOT Right to INVADE by FORCE a persons Business, and dictate how many & how much. Dont misunderstand me, I am not in support of the Big Insurance companies, or Big Drug Companies.
            In fact, there were better health care solutions out there, but neither the Left or the Right Listened..why? Because the Libertarian solution didnt make anyone rich!

            What is Mandated is PARTICIPATION IN the NEW MANDATORY HEALTHCARE PROGRAM. That is ANTI LIBERTY no matter how you spin or twist it.

          • Jovianus

            OK…now I understand what you are stating. So the solution is…a public option. To be alongside the private option. I would suggest that the medical industry also have a choice to accept or reject anyone on a public option program… as long as if they choose to reject any public option pateints, then it is across the board and they cannot cherrypick here and there. So if they accept public insured people…they have to accept all public insured patients just as if they had private insurance.

            My guess is we would see very few opting for a private insurance only patient load.

            How’s that?

          • Bitter Libertarian

            If Patients have “Patient Rights” You cant remove the Doctors rights to refuse certain patients without creating (again) a forced situation.

            Regardless of public opinion, a Doctors services are not public property because the services are inherint in the doctors abilities & knowledge and his/her soverign person.

            People have the right to freely choose their profession as people have the right to choose their doctor. Future doctors are going to think twice before persuing the profession if its all for the patients and nothing for the Doctors. Unless we conscript men & women to become Govt Doctors…cant wait to see that Group! LOL The current group of Doctors who are established are going to face changes, and they have every right to say, enough and call it quits.

            As I said, I dont care about Obamacare exept that its A MANDATORY Program that uses My tax dolars and that Violates the Principlas of Freedom & Liberty.

          • 45caliber

            Jovianus:

            The law doesn’t set what hours a doctor works – but it does state that he cannot refuse any service. And it states that the government will decide who his patients are to be. So if they give him twice as many patients as he has now and all need him every day, he MUST work whatever hours is required to see all those people every day. Even if it takes 24 hours a day to do it. Your comment shows very little knowledge and less care about others.

          • 45caliber

            Jovianus:

            I would support any public option that allowed a doctor and/or a hospital to opt out of that program. But you wouldn’t like it. Most would opt out because they wouldn’t want to be forced to give up their freedoms to grant more freedom to someone else. And if most opted out, where would those people get care? Now they can get it at any emergency room but if the hospitals can opt out, they couldn’t get it. No doctors would be available either so where do they get more doctors? China? And, finally, if they have a public option, fine – as long as it pays for itself. I have no interest in any public option that pays 100% of everyone’s medical costs with my tax money while those people pay exactly nothing.

          • Nadzieja Batki

            Those who regulate exert control. Are people so naive that they are willing to open this Pandora’s box. If Obamacare does not deliver what it promises who will abolish it. I will say that no one will be able to, even if money gets thrown at it without end.

          • Nadzieja Batki

            You get your jollies by twisting what is said?
            Learn from what 45caliber says.

      • 45caliber

        So Oblamacare does not set doctor’s fees? Well, perhaps you are right considering what I saw states that some bureaucrat will set those fees. The law itself simply sets up taht bureacracy rather than spell out what they can get. But isn’t that a little picky? If it states that a doctor’s fees will be set by someone else, then as far as I’m concerned, it sets the fees.

  • Donald

    Perhaps he prefers Ryancare to Obamacare. With Ryancare you are totally on you own, or at the mercy of the Health Care Insurance industry, that is always looking for a legitimate claim to disallow.

    • Dennis Patrick

      No – please be accurate. With RyanCare, you get a voucher to go out on the open market to purchase whatever health care you wish. That’s it. Of course, you have to hope you have enough coupons in case you get sick or the doctor or treatment you want doesn’t cost too much. But that’s okay – it’s probably your fault you got sick anyway. Healthy competition is supposed to regulate the market. Remember that next time you stop for gasoline – since Obama (in a rare moment of channeling his inter-Capitalist agenda) refuses to regulate prices or prosecute oil companies for price fixing or gouging. (Spare me the drilling argument – 2% increase would have no impact.)

      • Jovianus

        Watch it Dennis…you keep arguing common sense to these folks and soon Livingston will pop up and say you’re me posting under a different name.

        • Bitter Libertarian

          You called us “Folks”..Thank You. I mean that too.

    • Nadzieja Batki

      That is as it should be. No one owes you health or healthcare.You are buying a service or skills from a person who studied health care.

    • 45caliber

      Donald. Have you ever been on private insurance? Apparently not from your comments. I’ve used it for over forty years without any problem. Perhaps the reason I’ve not had problems is that I have little intention of trying to get the insurance company to pay me to sit at home and watch tv all day instead of working.

  • George Washington

    If I may,
    To feel that change that Obama was talking about…Please consider truly looking into, past the comment sections, the issues Dr. Paul presents.
    I beg you to please think about each issue and what he is presenting.
    America needs reasonable elements to fully nurture a, not only strong economy, but a strong dollar as well. All while increasing civil liberties. How rare to actually have a politician who does what he says and will/does work toward the USA’s national interests.
    Constitutionally, legislatively, and morally, Ron Paul has no equal. His 22 year voting record speaks for itself. The World is watching. Ron Paul for President in 2012.

  • Marie

    Just for the record, Reagan was considered a kook by the republicans too. Most other republicans are just status quo. If wanting a limited government, personal liberty, and a return to the constitution make you a kook then, I’m proud to announce I AM A KOOK!

    • Bitter Libertarian

      I agree! LOL :)

    • 45caliber

      Marie:

      I agree with you. Actually the GOP hated Reagon as badly as they do Ron Paul. He wouldn’t obey their orders either.

      And I’ve always been a Kook as far as the libs are concerned so it doesn’t bother me in the least.

  • nw

    RON! RON! HE’S OUR MAN, HE CAN’T DO IT, NO ONE CAN

  • Bob Marshall

    I believe Ron Paul is the only canidate that believe in our constution and the bill of rights.I have read where he is a racist. I have listened to some of his debates.I have been quite impressed. I believe he lives to debate. However, if i find him racist he is off my list. I was hoping if elected he could be sure The Federal Reserve was audited. Since the Banking Cartel owns The federal Reserve that will never happen. I don’t think most Americans realize that the dollar today is worth four cents. In 1930 it was 1.00. Laast night all my files were esased from my computor. I believe besause of the questions i had been asking about things i found ot about 9/11. Especially Isarel’s involvement. Why was Ben Ladens family in the US on 9/11. All passenger planes acrosss the US were grounded. Yet there was on passenger plane in the air. It carried Ben Laden’s family to Texas and out of the country. Since i was banned from Huffpost because of something i posted after six weeks of research. Most Americans have no idea who the ILLUMINATI are. The House of Saud. The Trilateral Commission and The bilderberg Group and their goals. How many members are in Obama’s cabinet? Do which group does Obama belong.I read one post where someone was prasing Bill Clinton. I thought he was a good president until i read this . Feb.1994 This is after the War in Bosnia, actually genocide where in the course of this war between 20,000-40,000 women were raped. Bill Clinton said Until these folks get tired of killing each otherover there bad things will continue to happen.This was after this genocide had been going on for two years.Ben Bernake:We don’t have to answer to anyone.Americans need to know about The federal Reserve. A national ID is coming! How many American realize that The Central Bank of Libya contains 144 tons of gold. The 20,000,000,000 sent to Iraq for rebuilding as promised reached Iraq yet Iraq got not on e penny. The money was put in Saddam’s palace. However it was given to any organization that claimed to have a project. America supported a war knowing that it was based on lies. most of America wanted blood and didn’t care wheather it was justified or not.i have two site you can either check out or just keep your head in the sand and pretend Iraq never happened. I feel compelled to speak for the 1,000,000 Iraqi’s who can’t. For the 47% of the children who are now orphans. For those murdered.how would we feel if someone destroyed The Smithionian Institute. All of Iraq’s records were destroyed by our troops. Art and artifacts that were as much as 2,000 years old were sold to collectors. Like it or not, our government raped their country.These are two site to visit if you really love America. I warn everyone you make not be proud of what you find out. http://www.globalresourse.com and http://www.whatreallyhappened.com.You may find out about the relationship between Bush and the Ben Laden family.

  • Average Joe

    MY only thoughts on Obamacare is …I am not participating…period. I care not what the cosequences are for not participating. Putting me in jail for not puchasing will only force someone else to pay for my care while incarcerated and will do nothing to make me participate when I get out….so I say go for it…put me in jail and force me to be a burden on the rest of society. If enough of us would just stand up for what we believe in…they would have no choice but to repeal it…because all of the the “payers” would be in jail and the “payees” would have nobody to fund it for them…..I have decided to quit the game….I’m taking my toys and going home…..

    • 45caliber

      Joe:

      But the libs are certain that you won’t take all your toys and go home. In fact they are certain that none of us will. And they are certain that none of the doctors will either. All of us will simply knuckle down and do as we are told. After all, they are the elite – the ones who should be in charge. And everyone should be able to not only see that but accept it. Right?

      • Average Joe

        That may be what they think, But some of us will suprise them….again I have drawn my line in the sand…and I for one am not going to cross it….sometimes a man must take a stand on his convictions and this is my stand.

        • Jovianus

          Joe…they can’t toss you in jail for owing money. Even the IRS can’t jail you for owing taxes.

          You’ll jack up the fines and say good bye to any tax refunds or federal benefits if that’s your wont in life.

          • http://naver sook young

            Didn’t they send Wesley Snipes to a federal prison for owing three years of back taxes? Thank you.

            Sook Young
            Wife of the Samurai

          • Andrea B

            Tell that to Sherry Jackson.

            You know not of what you speak.

        • Average Joe

          sook young,

          Some things are over Jovi limited thought processes.

  • http://com i41

    Joeanus, probably never has worked a job on a salary, of course when you are a rump ranger from the democrat union slub. Tin can Romeny, Ginrich and Onumnutts with the same rope around their neck. Lawyers have always been a scourge on society, and when in Congress or the WH, they ared a scourge on the nation and world. Government meddling in any business or area just is a total wreck waiting to happen.

  • http://personallibertydigest zena princess of zero

    I have been sitting back reading and enjoying, until I came to Jovianus response to 45Caliber about insurance payment and sex change. Your telling me you can get a sex change and your insurance has to pay for it no manner what. That’s unbelievable because to me some of that could be considered cosmetic surgery. Believe me if you rupture a breast implant and it has to be replaced that’s considered cosmetic surgery NOT COVERED.
    ZENA PRINESS OF ZERO

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