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Palin Vs. Moore: Where Is The Country Headed?

July 2, 2012 by  

Palin Vs. Moore: Where Is The Country Headed?
On Obamacare, the thoughts of the two sides are well summed up by Sarah Palin and Michael Moore.

The polarization of the country continues after the Supreme Court’s ruling on Obamacare. The ruling resulted in some conservatives encouraging their countrymen to throw the tea overboard, while liberals used the decision as an opportunity to send out obnoxious tweets.

The thoughts of the two sides are well summed up by Sarah Palin and Michael Moore.

In one corner there’s Palin, who says, “There is no such thing as a free lunch.” She warned voters on Fox News that “if Obama is reelected, well, America, you will no longer recognize the country that today you truly love and can enjoy all of its freedom and prosperity and security if Obama is reelected because this ‘ObamaCare’ is a harbinger of things yet to come.”

She also said, “It’s time, again, for patriotic Americans to rise up to protest this obvious infringement on our economic and personal freedom.”

Across the ring is Moore, who believes the decision sets the world on the much-needed path to universal health care. While appearing on MSNBC’s “Last Word,” Moore said: “Now let’s move forward and get the next piece and the next piece. There’s no going back, though. We’re on the path leading toward this universal health care.

“And Republicans and conservatives who are sitting around thinking tonight, ‘Yeah, we’re going to turn this thing around.’ I’m telling you friends, this is a huge locomotive. And as the American public experiences the parts of the bill that are really great, they’re not going to want to turn that train around.”

The question remains: Which side will take the wheel and steer the direction of the country? Perhaps future generations of Americans will prize fairness over work ethic and view the Constitution as an outdated document in a changing world. Or maybe those who claim to be freedom fighters will get out from behind their desks, jump onto a steel horse and proclaim, “The socialists are coming.”

Time will tell.

Bryan Nash

Staff writer Bryan Nash has devoted much of his life to searching for the truth behind the lies that the masses never question. He is currently pursuing a Master's of Divinity and is the author of The Messiah's Misfits, Things Unseen and The Backpack Guide to Surviving the University. He has also been a regular contributor to the magazine Biblical Insights.

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  • Kinetic1

    Mr. Nash,
    Another openly biased piece. The conservatives called for action, the liberals sent out “obnoxious tweets.” Liberals “prize fairness over work ethic and view the Constitution as an outdated document in a changing world.” while conservatives ” jump onto a steel horse and proclaim, “The socialists are coming.” How eloquent, how stirring, How full of yourself and your right wing rhetoric can you get?

    As I have stated before, my wife and I have worked hard to get where we are. I began working as a teenager and in the following decades I never went without a job for more than a month. We give to our church, donate time to our children’s schools and do our best to teach our children the importance of work. Apparently we are a strange anomaly in the world of liberals, based on your description. On the other hand, I know of many conservatives who do not work as hard or live as well as we, but I would never make the assumption, based on them that all conservatives are lazy, self righteous gun toting louts who care about nothing but their “freedom” to park their cars on the front lawn.

    We pay over $700 a month for our family’s health insurance, above and beyond what my wife’s employer pays. Obviously this is beyond the means of most middle and lower class families, and we feel for them when their children get sick, or need filling because they did not receive the sort of preventative care that we do. It’s great to have such care, but I’d be just as happy paying that money into a government run health system that provides for our needs as well as for those people who have not been as fortunate as we have. Our schools would be healthier, businesses would run better and, from what I’ve seen of my friends who grew up on other western nations, the general state of mind would be improved. But you go ahead and champion the cause for eliminating socialism from our nation. We could all be like South Fulton, Tennessee and watch homes burn because the owner didn’t pay their annual fee. Maybe we could extend this system to our police? It might take a few more minutes to insure that the victim’s home is covered for burglary or their car for hit and run, but it would be worth it, right?

    • JohnnyBoy

      Dearest Kinetic1 – your personal needs should certainly drive whatever level of freedom I’m able to enjoy (and my children). It’s only right that the country be here to server you, in whatever twisted way you might choose to fulfill your “needs.” What might your next need be? What freedom will I then be asked to sacrifice so that you can amuse yourself with some new “right?” Tell me, what is the compromise position between slavery and freedom? What is the middle ground? Can anyone be somewhat a slave? Government’s primary goal, according to my kindergarten teacher, is to perpetuate itself. If you think you can stop it from growing itself at the cost of your freedoms, I want you to point out to me the last time taxes and the cost of government went down instead of up.

      • Kinetic1

        If I were you I’d get a new kindergarten teacher.

      • JIm

        How about the Bush II tax cuts? The 1% grew their fortunes without having to work any harder or create any jobs.

    • CJ

      If you take a look at the latest report on the well being of the NHS in the UK as noted in the Guardian Newspaper this past week you might just want to mull over the stance you take.

      • Priscilla King

        Hear! Hear!

    • grumpy old man

      I have just one question. Why is it necessary to hire so many new IRS agents to inforce the ,sic, penalty (tax) to improve our health care system. A system that regularly treats Canadians who have a health care system close to the one that BO has designed?

      • fern rivers

        Obamatax is nothing compared to the Canadian System…as The Canadian System does NOT have “special people” EXEMPT…Everyone is under the same plan…NO law suits against everything related to health care are allowed….The population here in the US is NOT comparable to France[RI]…Are you willing to wait 9 months to a year for a cardiologist to see you…that is…if you find one…The US is becoming more and more a free loader socialist state….Like Obama…they believe in ‘MY Fair Share” without working for it…As in France…with the ille=gals a 75% tax will be needed to pay for everyone….

    • wandamurline

      Now that Obamacare is constitutional as a “TAX” not a “PENALTY” …. get ready for your health insurance to spiral upward….America is broke and cannot sustain this economic delouge.

      • TeaParty Patriot (TPP)

        We need to stop referring to this abomination as 0′bombcare and instead refer to it as 0′bomb’s Euthanasia Solution. We must Try to impress upon the population that anyone over 75 is going to be refused Medical procedures by the 0′bombs Euthanasia “medical” panels and those elderly that need procedures but it is not economically practical for someone of advanced years. Adios Grandma, Over the cliff you go.

      • Flashy

        Wanda…the SCOTUS did not state it was a “tax”, it stated it (mandate) fell within the taxing authority of Congress. Now…if one doesn’t have health insurance and doesn’t fall into an exempt category, would you rather have folks pay a penalty or would you rather they get a free ride?

      • Flashy

        TPP … just where in the heck do you come up with that? Ridiculous ! So now we’re back to unfounded rumors and outright lies?

      • Robert Smith

        Let’s see, it’s a choice between fat cat insurance companies that have outsourced decisions about care to India and a government employee right here in America who will dispense care without all the overhead of stockholders and fat cat managers.

        Yup, the choice is clear.

        Let the 1% decide your health care or let the government be held responsible through elections.

        I don’t want to trust the 1% with my health care.


      • heath

        Flashy…they are not unfounded lies. I am a canadian who just watched my father die of cancer as he waited for a drug that was supposed to help him. We wait and wait and wait in line to get treatment up here. If you get your MRI or CT scan and you have cancer, treatment doesn’t start right away. you will get more appointments and wait. All I can say to the dreamers in the US that think you will get better care adding millions of new people into the system without adding any new doctors is “good luck with that”. Instead of hiring all the new IRS agents you better start investing that money in hiring new doctors. In St. Catharines where I live, near Niagara Falls, it has been hard to find to a doctor as a lot of doctors weren’t accepting new patients. For the longest while you would go a minor emergency clinic to see a doctor.

    • tom

      It is quite clear that you work hard for what you have. Do you have children? Do you not want to provide for them? If you or they should get sick after Obamacare is fully implemented and their death panel you clearly don’t seem to believe, is there, and they say sorry can’t help you! What next? And by the way, You “won’t” get to keep what you have because you’ll be to broke to keep it. Your $700 a month will turn into $2000 a month or more. You then can tell your kids, sorry I elected to give your inheritance to others. Oh, I’m in need, can you please send me $1000 bucks.

      • Robert Smith

        “death panel you clearly don’t seem to believe, is there,”

        Biggest pants on fire lie of 2009.

        The REAL death pannel comes to us from India where hired guns on the phones deny coverage to those who are “insured” to guarantee profets for the 1%.


      • Wil

        Robert Smith,they’re called payment advisory boards,consisting of unelected beauracrats whose job is to decide if your treatment is cost-efficient. If you are not considered a productive enough citizen faithful enough to ‘the party’, your care will be denied.Hence the name Chairman Maobama.

      • Robert Smith

        “,they’re called payment advisory boards,consisting of unelected beauracrats whose job is to decide if your treatment is cost-efficient.”

        Really? And do you think that will be more fair than an insurance company with some guy in India looking at a book to see if the procedure your doctor wants for you is covered?

        Paleeze, I don’t want to trust my health care to the 1% and stockholders anymore.


      • Kinetic1

        Yes, I have kids. Yes, I want them to have health care throughout their lives, which is why I want national health care. I will guide them the best that I can, but as every parent knows there comes a day when you have to let your kids grow up and make their own decisions. They may do well enough to afford the best care our nation has to offer, or they may not. Wouldn’t it be great if we didn’t have that to worry about?

        Germany is about as close to the U.S. as you can get in how they provide health care. There they have numerous private health insurance providers, businesses pick up 50% of their employees health care premium, and everyone can choose which plan they want. They require EVERYONE to buy into a plan. They, as a nation spend just 70% of what we do per capita, yet they consistently out shine us. Other nations who have government run systems spend far less and still rank higher in health care than we. The odd part is, we do have some of the greatest health care available in the world, it’s just that most American’s can’t afford to take advantage of it.

        As for your “death panels”, I agree with others who have pointed out that we already have them. They are called insurance companies and they regularly deny people needed treatment based on a cost benefit analysis. Shoot, they’ll cut you off in the middle of treatment if they can.

    • Randy131

      Constitutional or not, can someone explain the reasoning for saying that the American citizen, under the US Constitution, cannot be penalized for a nonactivity event, then in the next sentence say that under the US Constitution an American citizen can be ‘Taxed’ for a nonactivity event? They define this as a discretionary ‘Tax’, like requiring one obtain a license to drive, to buy a tag for a vehicle, and to buy insurance, if one wants to drive a vehicle on our public streets or highways, or simply refrain from driving a vehicle on our public streets and highways and you won’t be required to pay any of the aforementioned taxes. So if so, what is the other choice of what not to do, if one does not want to purchase health insurance and not be ‘Taxed’ for not doing so? I’ve come to the conclusion that the government can make you do damn well what they please, no matter what the US Constitution says, for they place the people in the positions to say what the US Constitution says or means, no matter what it’s original intent of what it says or means by those ‘Founding Fathers’ who wrote it, to defend our heitage of freedoms and rights endowed to us by our Creator. Janet Napolitano’s and the TSA’s actions are another prime example of the government making our rights and freedoms of the US Constitution and Bill of Rights irrelevent by usurping the 4th Amendment, one in many that our government has already usurped. Home of the Brave and Land of the Free, what a fallacy, as the American citizen sits docilely by as the government usurps even more of our rights and freedoms, guaranteed by the now irrelevent US Constitution, and is only a matter of time before they usurp ‘ALL’ of our once proud rights and freedoms. Evil prevails when good men do nothing, as is the case of todays society.

      • Kinetic1

        Randy 131,
        We are all taxed for medical care now, but it’s a quiet tax. It is the cost paid with our tax dollars, dollars that could be used to reduce our state’s deficit. It’s the costs added to our insurance and medical care to cover those uninsured who use the emergency room for regular care. In a recent study, the Pew Center found that “preventable dental conditions were the cause of more than 800,000 ER visits in 2009.” That’s just dental!

        According to their report’s findings, “in Florida alone in 2010, more than 115,000 ER visits were dental related. Those visits produced charges in excess of $88 million. Roughly one third of those visits were made by Medicaid patients, costing tax payers millions.”
        And who do you think is paying for those visits? According to another study “nearly two thirds of the costs of treating the uninsured are paid by others, with the total incurred by providers estimated by Congress to be $43 billion in 2008.”

        In other words, we’re bringing the actual cost of health care out into the open. Just as government spending was much higher than reported during the Bush administration, despite their habit of hiding war related costs, our national medical care is costing each and every one of us much more than we realize because it’s hidden in our taxes, our insurance premiums and our health care bills. It might make us feel better when our parents hide our vegetables in cheese or mashed potatoes, but we’re still eating vegetables.

      • Sanders


        So making the poor pay a fine(tax) at the end of the year because they couldn’t afford to buy health insurance “is a good thing” when they can barely keep their heads above water as it is? Furthermore, just where do you think all the added costs of soon to be extra bloated bureaucracy to adminsiter this government run health plan will fall on? It will be the middle class. Anything charged to businesses will be paid by their patrons via increased cost of goods to cover the additional cost to do business and the emergency rooms will still be used heavily by the poor because they still can’t afford health insurance anymore now than they could a year ago.

      • Kinetic1

        Those who can not afford insurance are not the ones who have to worry about the “penalty”. Many will be covered by Medicaid, while those who earn too much for Medicaid, but too little to afford insurance will be able to apply for assistance in covering the cost. As for the cost of these programs falling on the shoulders of the middle and upper class, who do you think is paying for all those emergency room visits now? With preventative health care available to all, the cost of keeping the poor healthy will be reduced, and we will all benefit.

        I’ll give you an example: I know of a guy who was working part time in our local school. He felt a lump in his thigh, but figured it would clear itself. As a part time worker he didn’t have insurance, so he was reluctant to see a doctor about something he figured would take care of itself. After several weeks his family pushed him into a checkup where it was discovered he was suffering from a staph infection. A couple of weeks sooner and it would have simply been a matter of antibiotics, but now it had spread and required 5 surgeries to remove the infection, 6 weeks of institutional care and months of in home care. Meanwhile he is out of a job and has nothing coming in to cover his bills. Now who do you think will be paying those medical bills? How much more was spent on 5 surgeries as opposed to a round of antibiotics and a few office visits? And how much more will be spent to help him through his recovery when he could have continued working?

    • Casey

      Dear Sir;

      We have “Universal Health Care” now. Have had for decades. Anybody can get treated by health care professionals. The issue is health insurance and who controls the health care industries (insurance, drugs, doctors and infrastructure).

      The cost of health care is a function of supply and demand. When health insurance is mandated, it is hard to deliver health care fairly. Some people will pay for services that they do not receive or pay a higher fee for those that they do. If we distort the cost of health care, the delivery of health care is distorted. In short, we will get poorer service and less quality when costs and rewards are guarenteed and are not a function of delivery.

      This ignores the fact that a “mandated” insurance system is not sustainable in our economy. We pay too much of our productivity for health care now, because government regulations have distorted the health care economics. This will only get worse.

      The most economically efficient way to deliver health care is to allow individuals to purchase what they need when they need it; to make decisions about their situation based on their perception of need versus cost.

      We certainly don’t do that now!

    • Jibbs

      Kinetic1 says:
      July 2, 2012 at 2:42 am
      “But you go ahead and champion the cause for eliminating socialism from our nation. We could all be like South Fulton, Tennessee and watch homes burn because the owner didn’t pay their annual fee”

      I’ll bet they had an X-BOX or Play Station. The fee to the Fire Dept. is not that much. Our’s is only $40.00 a year, not a high price to pay to help protect your house.
      If they cannot afford the price of upkeep on their house or afford to pay for homeowner’s insurance or the Fire Dept. fee, they need to rent an apartment…….it’s that simple!

      They knew the rule’s but failed to follow them, don’t make your problem my problem, what the heck!!

      Stupid is as stupid doe’s.

      • Steve L.

        And stupid was your reply

      • Sanders

        And SteveL couldn’t sound any stupider if he tried.

      • Kinetic1

        We were lucky enough to have bought our home before the bubble, but when jobs dried up we faced some hard times. We considered selling the house and renting, but the cost of renting had been driven up buy the housing crash, so we would have had to pay more than if we kept the house. These days this is not that unusual a situation. So, under these circumstances you are telling me that it is right for the local fire department to allow everything we have left in the world to go up in flames because we were strapped for cash? And why make it a separate fee? Why not role it into the property tax like most cities?

    • Steve L.

      And the best part is Sara Palin talking about no free lunch. She quit as govenor to go ride around in Her Gravy Train bus getting people to donate hundreds of thousands of dollars for a pres. campaign she never was gonna run. Then her daughter tried to ride the gravy train with a lame unreality show . Both should try getting a real job. And Stop Tearing Down The Country They Claim To Love So Much. Republican hypocrits

    • DaveR

      Kinetic1, what gives you any confidence that government involvement/control of health care insurance is going to result in better health care being available to all? Health care insurance is not the same as health care; it is only a mechanism to address the [high] cost of health care that a particular individual or family unit may incur. How is adding layers of bureaucratic administrators [more employees] to the existing medical insurance and medical providers is likely reduce costs. And how is it not likely to increase the amount of fraud and delay in receiving medical services?

      • Kinetic1

        Best answer? I’m not sure it will. It would have made a lot more sense to extend medicare to everyone and leave private insurance as an expensive option to those who want special care and are wealthy enough to afford it. The problem is (and I know this will upset those of you who insist that Obama is a dedicated far left radical) our President was so bent on appeasing the Republicans so that they might reach a bipartisan agreement that he adopted an idea first put forth by the Heritage Foundation. In fact most of the mistakes made by President Obama involved trying to find common ground with the Republicans. You would think their vow to make him a one term president would have helped him realize that they will do nothing to help the nation unless and until they regain control of the White House. Even then I wouldn’t hold my breath waiting.

    • Tagaler70

      Great comment.

    • http://yahoo ron

      Very well stated Kinetic1. Why these folks keep using the constitution as a misread reason to condemn healthcare reform amazes me. If you own a car you are obligated to insure it. The freedom loss argument is crazy! Makes me wonder about the literacy of these folks. I found NOTHING obnoxious in the Moore tweet. I too have worked all my life after college then 5 years in the navy. Our healthcare system needs reform and this Affordable care act is a start. I am equally amazed how these so-called Christians appear to care nothing for the poor. We must get costs and access under control. They seem to portray any democrat as some kind of socialist for not wanting the poor to suffer without medical care. Palin seems to want to excite the small minded in our society and it’s quite sad.They “want their country back”. My question is back to what? We are as free as nation can be, so why are they using these type phrases? I’m amazed at the heartless statements some conservatives spew

    • Norman F.

      Middle and “lower class” families?

    • Deb Donnison

      You could not be more wrong with you statement …Liberals “prize fairness over work ethic and view the Constitution as an outdated document in a changing world.” YET AGAIN, another UPSIDE down statement. Liberals are trying to defend the Constitution against the onslaught we are receiving especially in our states…where they are suppressing voters rights, womens Constitutional rights, etc,etc…all of which go against the CONSTITUTION.

    • Panama City Pete

      Excellent!! And Thank you!

    • Panama City Pete

      Kinetic1 Thank you for all of your Excellent contributions to this site, It is truly refreshing to see a person that uses their brains say how it really is, your logic is very sound and clearly appreciated. Thanks
      Peace, Panama City Pete

  • sean murry

    Moore is a fat POS.

    • Daveh234

      Palin is a weak minded overly influential beatch.

      • Casey

        You are both out of line. Hush.

      • Mike in PA

        She’s cuter, he’s is smartet.

    • http://none Claire


  • Doc Sarvis

    As usual, articles on this site pit the far right against the far left even though both of those extremes represent a very small part of our population. The truth, as soooo often happens, is very much in the middle. President Obama represents very much the middle.

    • Steve

      The middle of what? Nazi Germany!

      • Doc Sarvis

        The United States of America.

      • RS

        You summed it up perfectly! The middle class is now the new Jew (absolutely no disrespect towards the Jewish population intended~just an analogy) and things are going to get ugly!

    • George

      Obama is in the middle? You’re kidding, right…?

      • Vigilant

        Sarvis is so far left he thinks Marx was a moderate.

      • Kinetic1

        Since the Reagan revolution and the repeal of the fairness doctrine, the right has been pushing the “middle” position further and further to the right. What many of you now consider to be “liberal” policies were well within the conservative camp just a few decades ago, as noted by FOX news:

        “The mandate, requiring every American to purchase health insurance, appeared in a 1989 published proposal by Stuart M. Butler of the conservative Heritage Foundation called “Assuring Affordable Health Care for All Americans,” which included a provision to “mandate all households to obtain adequate insurance.”

        So yes, Obama is much more of a centrist than you may wish to believe.

      • rocketride

        Doc Sarvis apparently think the middle is somewhere between Stalin and Pol Pot.

      • Flashy

        Obama campaigned as, and his administration is, a Conservative Moderate in deed and substance. Any other characterization is false…

    • R Classen

      As president, he’s not supposed to “represent” any segment of the country. He is supposed to (1) uphold and defend the constitution; and (2) defend the country from enemies, outside and within. That’s it. So far he’s done NONE of that. Instead, he’s managed to create more division and chaos within the system and the people than anyone who’s held that office before. The man needs to be impeached immediately.

      • Doc Sarvis

        He’s done your # 1 as well (or better) than any other recent President. Even the conservative Supreme Court upheld the health care law. As for defense, I don’t see how you can complain about the job he’s done there; finally getting bin Laden and other terrorist leaders.

      • Vigilant

        Like it or not, Sarvis (I’ll start calling you “Doc” when you tell us if you indeed have a PhD), the state of the economy will determine the next president. US creditworthiness, debt, deficit, inflation, unemployment are just peachy, you say?

        “He’s done your # 1 [uphold the Constitution] as well (or better) than any other recent President.”

        That’s obviously a sick joke I’ll not laugh at. Executive orders and “announcements,” failure to enforce the law (DOMA, immigration), asserting executive privilege as a coverup, violating bankruptcy law (GM), unconstitutional regulatory fiat (NLRB and Boeing in SC), etc., etc.

      • Steve L.

        You are a perfect example of the far Wrong’s extreme position on anything. Reagan couldn’t get elected with you people who only support democracy if your guy wins. When Bush broke Federal Laws and was tapping everyones phone I’ll bet you never said a word.THATS AN IMPEACHABLE OFFENCE.

        • Katrael

          Steve L., quick look what somebody did twenty of thirty years ago. Get current will you. That’s the old smoke and mirrors trick. Reagan didn’t get caught so he didn’t get impeached ok get over it. All presidents do bad things and it’s our job to stop them when they’re doing it. We can’t do it by getting in the “way back machine” to fix something that can’t be fixed then.

      • Nancy in Nebraska

        Doc Sarvis, you REALLY NEED TO READ THE CONSTITUTION!!! he has done NOTHING! to uphold the constitution!!! Now I know your response will be to blame some republican and I know they they are guilty also. But you CANNOT say that obummer has done ANYTHING to uphold the constitution!!! Look at the patriot acts I and II (I know they were brought about by bush) he’s done NOTHING to get rid of them! They ARE UNCONSTITUTIONAL ! He put the ndaa into effect, VERY UNCONSTITUTIONAL! He has taken away our right to free speech! We had the right to protest the actions of our government. Now you can’t protest any event in which the secret service is in attendance. Our problems were caused by both republicans and democrats but YOU CANNOT SAY THAT obummer HAS DONE ANYTHING TO UPHOLD THE CONSTITUTION!!! THAT IS AN OUTRIGHT LIE!!! YOU NEED TO READ THE CONSTITUTION SO THAT YOU WILL KNOW WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT INSTEAD OF SPOUTING OFF GARBAGE!!!

    • Flashy

      “Or maybe those who claim to be freedom fighters will get out from behind their desks, jump onto a steel horse and proclaim, “The socialists are coming.””

      Well…this is bout the only part of the article that was correct. They “claim’ to be freedom fighters. When it is obvious it is just the opposite.

      From what the article states, it supports the unbridled rampant allowance of greed and self over that of the Commons and Middle America yet accepts and calls for the imposition of an American Taliban set of social mores, restrictions and laws upon us.

      Such is the creed eh? We demand to be able to rape, pillar and plunder economically, using resources without compensation, abusing and placing into serfdom the country’s labor and natural resources, allowing oligarchical corporate control, and y’all can live an unfettered life of freedom and liberty…as long as you live it according to our social and religious dictates.

      • Dale on the left coast

        The socialists/marxists are coming ? ? ?
        They’re here . . . been here for over 3 years . . . anyone that thinks the Govt can run Nation Wide Health Care is on Krack . . . it will run like the Post Office and Amtrak . . . laughable ! ! !

      • Kinetic1

        Our postal service is the envy of the world and would be in fine shape if not for the Republican lead congress. Their drive to bust all unions and privatize all government agencies lead them to require the postal service to grossly overfund their pension account. They demanded that the Postal Service fully fund retirement healthcare benefits for the next 75 years and gave them only 10 years to do it! Think about it, the Postal Service had a decade to fully fund the retirement healthcare benefits for future employees that will not even be born until at least 2057!

        Reagan was partially right about his 10 words, but it should have been “Hello, we’re Republicans and we’re here to help you privatize.”

    • wandamurline

      Whaaaaat? Pleeze do me a favor and stop drinking the koolaide, it has affected the grey matter in your brain.

      • Flashy

        i know Wanda…there were a few words which had three of more syllables. given your past demonstrations, it is understandable it went over your head. Just keep nodding your head and accepting the programming you do….you appear to be comfortable not thinking independently…

      • JeffH

        falsy, “given your past demonstrations” of deception, lying and twisting it’s so clear why you haven’t a shred of credibility.

    • Steve E

      Since most people are against ObamaTaxHikeCare, I would not say that Obama is in the middle.

      • Daveh234

        Latest poll numbers:
        42% favorable
        42% unfavorable
        25% undecided

        where’s the majority?

      • Average Joe


        First off, You fail to give any supporting data to back up your claims ( simply putting those numbers on the site, does not make them true). How about a link to the site where you got those numbers?

        Second, either you..or the site where you got those numbers…failed math ( 42 + 42 + 25 = 109% of the population…. please explain to us….how do you do that?).
        I would say nice try at misdirection, but that wasn’t even trying…more like just plain LYING. Better luck next time….

        Every man is a damn fool for at least five minutes every day; wisdom consists in not exceeding the limit.
        Elbert Hubbard

        You may want to take this opportunity to put a sock in it…before exceeding your limit.

        Best Wishes,

      • Flashy

        Steve..where’s the tax hike?

      • http://none Claire

        It all depends on which poll you are looking at–None of them have the same results. So which one will anyone choose to believe?

    • Ted Crawford

      Right Doc, Obama represents the middle even as the Pope represents the Muslums!

    • Nancy in Nebraska

      To say that obummer represents the middle is the STUPIDEST thing I have ever heard!!! You are either an idiot or a liar!!!

      • http://yahoo ron

        Wow Nancy in Nebraska.. The obnoxios name calling is totally immature. The constitution is being used as a scapegoat. If yo have a car you insure it,same is true of our bodies. The comment about your husbands Cadiilac plan premiums raising is amazing since the Affordable Care act governing these plans hasnt even been implemented yet. I too work for a Fortune 500 company who TRIED to use any excuse to continue to glut employess of their salries while execitives enjoy super bonuses! That’s a big issue in this country and those who are blind to REAL culprits while hiding behind the propaganda is just amazing. They raised premiums because the WANTED to. Your venom is NOT for directed in the right place. As I read your insults directed at this President it makes me wonder what is REALLY motivating you. The middle class has been best represented by this President. There was once a time when “the law” allowed Blacks to be segregated and as an example when MY Dad worked for the Railroad in the 60′s he earned a third of White workers doing the same job earned. Where the constitution wavers then? Palin has ALWAYS been on the wrong side of issues regarding the middle class. Luckily this is a free country and you are entitled to YOUR opinion regardless of the facts. If you mean you aren’t “allowed” to protest, I know that’s not true. However watching some of the “tea party” demonstrations it’s no wonder the Secret Service has issues. I have seen some of the worse hate filled signs ever.

      • http://none Claire

        Tell me, what does Romney represent? The poor? The middle class? The wealthy?

      • Nancy in Nebraska

        Ron, typical liberal! Everything is about racism! In case you hadn’t noticed I wasn’t talking about race!!! Anyone who disagrees with a liberal is automatically accused of being a racist! I’m sick of it! Take your crap to somebody else!

      • Nancy in Nebraska

        Claire, romney represents the “elite”. So does obummer! They all do! There is no difference between democrats and republicans! They are the same thing!

      • http://none Claire

        Nancy—Glad to see that you admit the Dems and Repubs are one and the same.

    • Claire Weber

      Are you kidding, Doc?

  • Steve

    If you like Moore, don’t worry, you too can soon look like a homeless bum!

  • Dave67

    There is no such thing as a free lunch… True. The corporatist model of insurance companies and the companies you work for making medical decisions for you is a failure. We re #1 in HC spending but only 32nd in quality of care. Companies care about profit, not care and we have allowed the insurance industry, big pharmacy, hospitals, fat cat doctors to fleece the system and bankrupt people for substandard care. We need care to be decided by doctors and patients, not corp bean counters. The GOP did nothing on HC when they had their opportunity. Obama took a small step in the right direction. We can and should do better.

    Less money on foreign intervention wars, end farm and oil subsidies, raise taxes on the wealthy, and let’s get a HC system we can all be proud of. Not just a good system for the wealthy.

    • Steve

      So, when ovomitcare bankrupts doctors & hospitals, health care will be SOOOOOOOO much better! Idiot!

      • Dave67

        Love you too genius… My doctor gave me a prescription for care for my daughter’s digestive issues and guess what? My company’s insurance said NO to covering it and I had to pay $4000 out of my own pocket. I work for a Fortune 500 firm BTW.
        We had friends in the home building industry who worked a national builder. Their 8 month old son got a brain tumor which their insurance only partially covered, they had to declare bankruptcy and what they did cover was too expensive to the company so guess what they did in this “right to work” state I love in? They fired her.

        So these scenarios that are more common that you fools care to admit make sense to you? It is in an insurance company’s best interest to deny claims by any means necessary. The company, not you are the end users of HC in this system. Wise up morons like Steve.

        So all you conservative morons have no clue how bad this system is for most people need to pull your heads out of your rectums. Palin is a moron who knows nothing.

        If you are wealthy, this system works well for you… If you are like most, you are not wealthy and the system needs much work.

        But keep on regurgitating the lies the corporatist media tells you. The HC law at least gets people covered who otherwise be a drag on the system and cover people with pre-existing conditions. Have any of you tried to get HC coverage with pre-existing conditions who work for small business? Thought not…

        If you have health insurance, you don’t have to pay it. If you’re poor you go on Medicaid and you don’t have to pay it. If you don’t have health insurance available to you, you would go to an exchange and be able to purchase insurance there independent of your employer and you pay no penalty

        Benefits are subsidized for small business (the same small businesses that make up about 60% of the hiring)

        Starting in 2010, up to 4 million small businesses that offer healthcare coverage to their employees may be eligible for a tax credit. Fill in the amounts below to find out what your tax credit will be.

        To qualify, a small business must:

        Have fewer than 25 full-time equivalent employees
        Pay average annual wages below $50,000 per FTE
        Contribute at least 50% of each employee’s premium

        Owners are excluded, and should not be counted in number of employees, wages, or premium contribution amount.

        This HC is only a small step to get the system better for most people.

      • Dave67

        Oh and if a public system is so awful

        Here is what Canada had to say.

        “A new poll conducted by the Toronto-based Nanos Research points to overwhelming support — 86.2 percent — for strengthening public health care rather than expanding for-profit services.”

        Its because the US system is wildly inefficient. It is a bad system for getting quality care. But I would not expect ignorants like you to comprehend that fact.

        Just get sick in this system we have, then enjoy the giant sucking sound of money being extracted from your wallets to pay for the 30% overhead that comes with insurance firms so that their CEO can rack in 10′s of millions in compensation a year and to pay for the several million dollar homes of doctors and hospital administrators, or the big pharma companies that use gov subsidies to get their meds on the market…

        But you and your dumbazz wouldn’t understand anything like that.

      • Average Joe

        Dave67 ,

        You write,
        “Here is what Canada had to say.”

        Good for them…BTW, this isn’t Canada, but you are free to move there if that’s the kind of care that you want…. Air Canada is ready when you are!

        As for me, I am staying right here in the USA ..and regardless of consequences, I WILL NOT COMPLY!

        Best Wishes,

      • Dave67

        Gotta Love Avg Joe…

        “I will only follow the laws I agree with”

        Not sure if Somalia has their own airline but it sounds like you would be happier there.

        In America, you are not free to be a burden of society and you will not be free to put people in the poorhouse so corp entities can make a few extra dollars.

      • Average Joe


        You do know of course that our nation was founded in civil disobedienc, right?

        Civil Disobedience:

        “Civil disobedience is the active, professed refusal to obey certain laws, demands, and commands of a government, or of an occupying international power. Civil disobedience is commonly, though not always defined as being nonviolent resistance. It is one form of civil resistance. In one view (in India, known as ahimsa or satyagraha) it could be said that it is compassion in the form of respectful disagreement.

        I am free, no matter what rules surround me. If I find them tolerable, I tolerate them; if I find them too obnoxious, I break them. I am free because I know that I alone am morally responsible for everything I do.
        Robert A. Heinlein

        Best Wishes,

      • Mike in PA

        Steve hows it going to bankrupt all those entities when he just gave them millions more customers.

      • Average Joe

        You write:

        “In America, you are not free to be a burden of society”

        First, you ASSume that I am a burden to anyone…a wrong ASSumption on your behalf, I take care me…I take care of my bills. I am not a burden on anyone…I am doubting that you can make the same claim (without lying).

        You continue:

        “and you will not be free to put people in the poorhouse so corp entities can make a few extra dollars.”

        You are not free to force me to pay for someone elses medical care…I don’t care what laws are passed that say otherwise. I am entitled to the fruits of my labor…and no one else is entitled to any of my fruits, without my permission.Without my permission…it is theft by statute (not law)…. and I don’t take kindly to theives…Government or otherwise.

        Best Wishes,

      • Nancy in Nebraska

        Dave67, you may think that obummercare is better for us but it’s NOT for my family! My husband works for a Fortune100 company (actually it’s much higher). Our insurance plan was what obummer called “a Cadillac plan”. My husband’s pay isn’t fantastic but the insurance was great! As I am a cancer survivor, that was important to us. After obummercare was passed we lost our great insurance (because obummercare taxes Cadillac plans). Our rates nearly doubled and our out of pocket costs are through the roof. We used to pay $15 to see the doctor. Now we pay 100% up to $3600, then we pay 20%. We used to pay a maximum of $20 for prescriptions. My last prescription cost me over $100. Don’t try to tell me that we are better off under obummercare. And if you don’t think that insurance rates will skyrocket, you are nuts! Nothing is done for the benefit of the middle class. The insurance big wigs and the medical corporation big wigs will get richer and richer. You and I get to pay for everyone else AND we will get rationed care. See how you like it when you can’t get your family the care they need at ANY price!

      • Dave67


        So you are an anarchist and anti-American now?

        So I do not agree with the Citizen’s United ruling so I will take a torch to the buildings of the fortune 500 and hack into their systems to take their money and intellectual property because I don’t agree.

        I will not give the % of my tax money that goes to the Iraq, Afghanistan wars, Israel, Mid East, Central/South American and Asian dictators we support.

        I will also calculate how much money goes to oil company subsidies, farm subsidies… Remove that from how much I pay as well.

        AJ, you have no clue about what the term tyranny means not any experience with what the true meaning of the word is. I guess you can’t fix ignorant.

        So lets all follow only the laws we agree with and see how that works out. Mandating you buy PRIVATE HC insurance for HC you will use sooner or later is not tyranny…

      • Flashy

        Average Joe…if you have health insurance, there’s nothing to ‘comply” with. If you don’t have health insurance, you aren’t gonna leach off the rest of us anymore. Simple as that. Easy to say “I ain’t gonna do that” when you don’t have to do it. feel like a big man now?

      • Average Joe

        I thought we had discussed Assuming? Did you miss it? Reading comprehension problems along with just being a bit educationally…. off-kilter?

        You write:

        “So you are an anarchist and anti-American now?”

        Uh…NO! I am a strict Constitutionalist…period. ( yes I know, some things [like reality] tend to slip right through your simple mind).

        You write

        “So I do not agree with the Citizen’s United ruling so I will take a torch to the buildings of the fortune 500 and hack into their systems to take their money and intellectual property because I don’t agree. ”

        Go for it, it is you that goes to jail for whatever charges the levy upon you. If violence and destruction of someone elses property is how you choose to accomplish your goals…go for it….it doesn’t concern me until you attempt violence against me, my family or my property…and I guarantee the violence will stop within minutes ( as you will be taking a one way trip to the morgue). ( that is called “gun control” for folks like you…I don’t tend to miss).

        Marbury vs. Madison
        “If the new law is repugnant to the Constitution it is null and void. That is what Chief Justice of the United States John Marshall wrote in the Supreme Court decision you cited.
        The repugnancy is demonstrated by a test case filed at the Federal district court level and which works its way up through the appelate level to a hearing and decision by the Supreme Court. But, until the Court invokes what I call the “Marshall Doctrine” that law must be obeyed.”

        But, hey, don’t let that pesky old Constitution get in the way of your Stupidity. Keep searching for your unicorns, rainbows and magic cures from the same folks who told us that they would take Amtrak and turn it around , make it profitable and give it back to the private sector within 4 years…oh yeah, that was over 40 years ago and it still hasn’t shown a profit…and the taxpayers are still footing the bill…who woulda thunk? If you are still believing the lies that they tell you…there is no hope in redemption for you…You are a lost cause.

        Best Wishes,

      • Average Joe


        I’ve cancelled my policy….any questions?

        Just so you know, I have surgery scheduled for tomorrow morning for a double hernia…I am paying for it out of my own pocket. 80% has already been paid up front..the rest will be paid for tomorrow…in cash.

        Once again, I WILL NOT COMPLY!

      • Dave67

        Good for you AJ,

        Go completely off the grid… If you can, good for you…

        Trouble is, most people can’t afford to pay their own medical bills… If I could I would too…

        You are the minority, not the majority so all your bluster signifies nothing.

      • Average Joe


        Yada, yada, yada…I grow weary of your diatribe……yawn….

        Best Wishes,

    • George

      You said “We need care to be decided by doctors and patients, not corp bean counters”…You are right about that, Then you say we should adopt Obamacare, which puts the decisions of our health care in the hands of the government. Of course the government has a very good record of making the right decisions as you can see by our national debt.

      • TeaParty Patriot (TPP)

        George: We need to stop referring to this abomination as 0′bombcare and instead refer to it as 0′bomb’s Euthanasia Solution. We must Try to impress upon the population that anyone over 75 is going to be refused Medical procedures by the 0′bombs Euthanasia “medical” panels and those elderly that need procedures but it is not economically practical for someone of advanced years. Adios Grandma, Over the cliff you go.

      • Daveh234

        More Death Panel propaganda? Really?

      • Nancy in Nebraska

        It’s not propaganda! It’s the truth!

      • Sanders

        That’s right Dave, it is not propaganda. Did you miss Obama’s interview with MSLSD(that’s MSNBC to you believers), where he talked about the panels that will decide on end of life treatments or not? Death panels will be an appropriate label. There is no way of convincing you otherwise until you actually see this happening with the elderly in your own community. It’s coming, wait and see.

      • Flashy

        Jeesh…the death panel lies again. I thought that was debunked and debunked. Criminey. It’s aligned closely with the Oregon Death With Dignity Act, but only for elder care, not terminal end of life for disease (Oregon’s includes both ).

        If it were “Death Panels”, why is Oregon’s DWD Act so entrenched in favorable opinion polls in Oregon? You guys are something else. Unbelievable what tall tales, fables and lies will come out on any given day

      • Dave67

        These conservatives will believe any lie the right wing media tells them. There are no death panels

        While the health care reform law does create an independent board that will make proposals to Congress to restrain Medicare costs, the legislation specifically states that “The proposal shall not include any recommendation to ration health care… or otherwise restrict benefits”

        Can you conservatives take off your tin hats?

      • Sanders

        Can you Liberals take off your blinders? You’ll believe anything your corrupt government will tell you. You really trush our government with you medical care? Look at what they have done to all other “good agencies” they have bankrupted. Get a clue!

      • Sanders

        BTW, that type-o “trush” is a cross breed of trust and trash. LOL

      • http://none Claire

        No death panels? Surely you gest. If this is so, then why are my son’s heart doctors haggling with Health Alliance?? Why doesn’t my son get the surgery he needs? This has been going on for a month now.

      • http://none Claire

        Tell me if I am wrong, but Obamacare doesn’t take effect until 2014. It hasn’t started yet.

      • http://none Claire

        Death panels? Think about it when an insurance company refuses to pay for a surgery even though the person has paid their premiums faithfully. The so-called death panels have been around for quite awhile. I am appalled at the number of people that believe the current health care system/medical profession in the U.S. is so damn wonderful.

    • Rich S.

      Doctors, hospitals, pharmacies, et al all took risks, spent tons of money to create their business. Who the heck do you think you are to say what is fair and what isnt? Why dont you complain about all the rap stars and basketball stars making 20 million $ a year? If the doctors charge too much for their service, then no one will afford it and they will go out of business. They have to right to determine the charges they want to charge. NO ONE is owed anything in this world except the RIGHT to PURSUE happiness/freedom. It is NOT GUARANTEED. Success is earned, not doled out to those people you feel “should” get it.
      If you cant afford to pay for basic services, then find another country to live in like the Philippines where most people live on a few dollars a day.
      I dont care about your sad stories.

      • Dave67

        Rich S.

        Once again, for most people… They work for other companies, they give you your insurance plan and they tell you which doctors you can see via who is in network and who is not. Can you tell me how much you pay for your families insurance and in your opinion is quality of care foremost in the mind of the company you work for?

        HS did not start spinning out of control until big business and insurance firms got their dirty mitts into the business. After the money that started to roll in, Trial lawyers saw the feeding frenzy and wanted their cut too. When HC in the country was just you and your doctor/local hospital… There was to eagerness to sue for malpractice.

        The bottom line is this in our system:

        Too many are making too much money off HC in this country.

        But again Rich, get sick in this system and lets see how much of a fan you are when you do not have coverage for the prescription your doctor selected by the insurance bean counter or you lose your job because you live in a right to work state and the insurance to pay for your child’s illness is too expensive for the firm to keep you on.

        Then you will change your ignorant tone.

      • Sanders


        Right to work state or not, if you know somebody who got fired over the cost of their medical bills then they are a fool for not persuing this in court. They have a lawsuit that would bring you a minimum of 1/2 million $.

      • Dave67


        YOU DO know how the game works don’t you? IN a right to work state you can be fired for any reason. OF Course they will not say it is HC but when they have to make reductions due to “downward business trends” who gets the axe?

        I am sure you are smart enough to know this.

      • Sanders


        Yes, I am smart enough to know this and most judges are smart enough to know this as well. You see, the company I work for had a change in business conditions in it’s Chicago based sales office and had to close it down and move some sales personnel to the Cincinnati office and lay others off. It just so happened that one of those getting laid off was pregnant and she sued and won 1/2 million. It was purely a business decision, had nothing to do with her pregnancy as to why she got the ax.

      • Claire Weber

        My parents mirated from Canada. They had 12 children. My Dad was a carpenter (no union in those days) and my Mom was a housewife. They had no insurance, yet paid all of their bills, taxes,and all of their medical care (when needed), dental care & eye care as well.
        No they did not have a free lunch. They both worked hard to provide and never expected or wanted a handout.Unfortunately, we are a “Nanny” country and the Dumbocrats are mostly to blame for that. And, since Obummer has been our leader, we are in worse conditions and soon will become a 3rd world country if he & his cronies are re=elected.

    • Vigilant

      Dave67 says, “let’s get a HC system we can all be proud of.”

      You sure as Hell won’t find it under Obamacare. I lived in Western Europe for 19 years, and I can tell you first hand, idiot, that that’s the worst kind of health care I’ve ever seen. My father-in-law died of cancer because he was on a waiting list after his “doctor” told him the tumor was “most likely” benign and not to worry about it. My wife was denied treatment for strep throat because the “doctor” diagnosed it as a viral infection (even as a layman, I could see it was strep throat from the symptoms). Hospitals regularly morphine overdose the elderly “terminals” to provide bed space.

      Under Obamacare, the same things will happen. The good doctors will opt out in droves, leaving the marginal performers in the field to accomplish their malpractice. Waiting times for EVERYONE will increase, and the kids and elderly will be put on the back burner. A committee will decide if you are “worthy” of an expensive drug or will be given the substandard one. And there’s NOTHING in the law to rein in the inordinate cost of malpractice suits and the expensive defensive medicine that results (a Democrat nod to the trial lawyers who support Obama).

      And you want the largest tax increase in history to be levied to support this dangerous nonsense?

      • Dave67

        I never said the HC law is the answer… Its a small step in the right direction, you conservatives need to learn to read and comprehend.

        What did the Conservatives do on HC from 2001-2006 when they could have done something? They thought war with Iraq and tax cuts while wasting that money was more important.

        Sorry conservatives, you don’t have a leg to stand on in this fight. Part of this HC law were endorsed by the Heritage Foundation before Obama and the Dem’s put it forth… So to get conservatives to be for something even if it is once their own approved plan, the Dems have to say they are against it. Conservatives are such simpletons.

      • Tired of the 0′bombs IEDs and horsepucky from his had puppets

        Like it or not, Death panels are here We need to stop referring to this abomination as 0′bombcare and instead refer to it as 0′bomb’s Euthanasia Solution. We must Try to impress upon the population that anyone over 75 is going to be refused Medical procedures by the 0′bombs Euthanasia “medical” panels and those elderly that need procedures but it is not economically practical for someone of advanced years. Adios Grandma, Over the cliff you go.

      • Dave67

        Tired of the 0′bombs IEDs and horsepucky from his had puppets,

        That is a bald face lie…. But in conservativeland, if the lie is repeated enough, you believe it.

        Conservatism is a mental illness. Its just too bad the cure for such illness is too expensive for most people in the system we have so the poor stay dumb.

      • Vigilant

        Dave67 says, “I never said the HC law is the answer… Its a small step in the right direction, you conservatives need to learn to read and comprehend.”

        And I gave you a few good reasons why it is a step in the WRONG direction. You leftists need to learn to read and comprehend.

      • Daveh234

        It’s been shown that this is not thelarget tax increase, not even close.
        That was just an opine by a right wing trying to make a statement with no basis in fact.
        Even Reagan was shown to have a higher increase during his tenure.

      • Dave67

        Your proof of your assertion is where? Nowhere…Your BS fearmongering has no affect on me because I know this legislation better than you do.

        Liberals did not want this HC law. This law was a compromise between the conservative/corporatist part of the Democratic party. This HC law would have been filibustered like everything else the GOP does if it were not for compromises agreed to by the two Maine Senators to allow it to even come to a vote in the Senate. We wanted a public OPTION. Conservatives would not agree until the public option was taken out. Why? Because people would like it better and the bloodsucking insurance industry would be done with and followed by for profit hospitals and greedy doctors.

        Tell me about all the countries in the world who desperately want the American system as the corporatists constructed it. Do you have a list? Do the French, the Canadians want our system? The Taiwanese looked at our system about 18 years ago and came to the conclusion that our system is what NOT to do.

        No, every other country has a public HC system and 31 countries do it better and less expensive than we do.

        That reality, you don’t want to hear about.

      • Nadzieja Batki

        Vigilant, I am puzzled by some things from the Lefties on this forum. The Lefties were handed Obamacare by Justice Roberts yet they are squacking all over the place not really believing that they actually have it in hand. They don’t appear happy if they have it.Their own savior O gave them what they wanted. Being snarly to the Conservatives/Libertarians on this forum the Lefties behave as if their Obamacare would be taken away by the taxpayers which is an impossibility because that healthcare monster has been nourished by the government regulations.

      • Dave67

        Nadzieja Batki,

        Thats because you are completely ignorant about liberals. This HC law is proven to be constitutional. (I know anything you don’t like is unconstitutional in your so-called minds). It is not the fix to the system that needs to happen.

        Liberals want medicare for all, we want a single payer system. Not the Employer-Insurance Industry model we have today. Unless you like paying the most money for the 32nd ranked care in the world.

        But keep on listening to right wing radio, come to fear factories like this site and watch fox, You will stay ignorant to liberalism as it has been practiced in America and what liberals stand for.

        I come here to learn more about conservatives and I get confirmation that liberals and liberalism is a better way to go after I hear the likes of some of the conservatives here spout off on “death panels” This system is a “tax” and other garbage. The fun part was the 2-3 hours after the ruling when the conservatives were just flailing about, not knowing what to say. But the corporatists gave you your message soon thereafter so now you can feel safe again.

      • Vigilant

        Dave67 (not sure if 67 is your birthyear or IQ) would fail Logic 101. He decries Conservatives claiming “this system is a “tax” and other garbage.”

        Sonny, if it’s NOT a tax, then it’s unconstitutional. What part of the SCOTUS decision do you not understand?

    • rocketride

      Remember that that model was itself a product of federal meddling. Namely, it was a reaction to the WW-II era wage controls. Basically it was mostly illegal for a private employer to give valued employees raises during the war, so giving health insurance policies in addition to monetary pay became a popular way to get around that. This was the first step in decoupling the price signals (which any marketplace will rely on to set prices in such a way that nobody gets systematically “screwed”) from reality. This decoupling took the form of causing the person receiving the treatment not being the same as the entity paying most of the cost. And it only got worse with the “Great Society” programs and the HMO act. Nowadays, it’s uncommon for a person to walk into a doctor’s office or hospital and pay cash for treatment. And if someone does, they get screwed.because of all the people who are having most of their bills paid for by a third party (which never pays the full billed cost) And those folks who are insured seldom have any idea of what their treatment really costs, and so, tend to over-use the system. When Medicaid’s footing the entire bill, taking the toddler to the ER for the sniffles maybe doesn’t seem like such a bad idea. Again, the price signals are scrambled and everyone wonders why the system’s f***ed up.

    • Dave67


      Like I said, it is better for the majority. Now you know what its like to be a part of the majority and its not so fun is it? Did not think so…

      Thats why liberals do not want the private sector involved with care giving. Private firms stink at it. Their goal is to make money, not provide quality care. Your “cadillac” plan is the minority. How many people in this country have a plan such as yours?

      Many people who also do not like the new law are in the military who also get a sweet deal on HC, cheap meds, cheap doc visits.

      The system as is, is unsustainable.

      So when you conservatives can come up with something ANYTHING that provides quality care and lower costs so people do not have to go bankrupt to pay for serious illnesses, I will pay attention. You people had your chance in 2001-2006 and you did nothing. This has been an ongoing debate for 80 years.

      Glad you survived your cancer, many people who can’t afford such plans as yours? I know you could care less about those people but what do you think happens to them?

    • teaparty13

      ..and also end tax exempt to immigrants, nothing like being behind a immigrant illegal or other wise at a grocery store, etc, and they don’t have to pay taxes on their purchases; welfare to folks that never worked a day in their life and get a free ride where a retiree struggles and has to help pay for these freeloaders; stop giving SS to those that never put into it ( kids with health issues, sorry wasn’t set up for that) also inmates collecting their parents SS payments ,many of whom murdered their parent(s) funding worthless programs like name a few things.

  • http://liberty Tony

    To Everyone:
    The only difference between Palin and Moore, when coming to tactics, is Palin’s better looking.That’s all folks!!

    • Rich S.

      Palin loves America. Moore is an American hating progressive who is also a fat hypocrite who wants to destroy capitalism except when it comes to his pocket or diet.

      • TeaParty Patriot (TPP)

        moore is another 0′bomb IED mouthing off when his A$$ knows better

      • http://yahoo ron

        Palin loves America? Wow, now that’s funny. She “loved” it so much she QUIT as Governor to make a ton of money from those on the strange side of logic and Christianty, She is lacking in comprehension skills and it was shown when she speaks. those who follow her blindly is a perfect example of what’s REALLY wrong with this country. You are free to have your opinion right or not, that’s America.

    • http://liberty Tony

      Look you two:
      Palin is a simplistic airhead. She’s pleasant to look at but that’s it. Granted, she had potential 4 yrs ago but every since she got involved in that Fax and fiends crowd, she lost all credibility!!

      • Sanders

        I’d say she lost most of her credibility when she resigned as Governor of Alaska. She was doing a good job there like she did as mayor of Wasilla. She is all for free market capitalism, which btw is what catipulted the USA to its throne of the most powerful and richest country on earth. Now, since the government has gotten so deeeeeep into the pockets and policies of the private sector where capitalism starts and stops, it is in a death spiral.

  • Rasta

    Oh my God! Has it come to taking advice from Sarah Palin?

    • TIME

      Dear Rasta Man,

      Let me ask you this – so a fat ass Canadian hypocrite is better?

      Oh Man; please – both are worthless at best, but this mindless sheep like responce of yours only compounds stupidity to a level thats absurd at best.

      Look if your think your opinion is of value when its based on worthless spun rhetoric perhaps you should try and support your opinions with something stronger than emotions.

      Peace and Love

    • Steve E

      The Truth is the Truth. No matter where it comes from.

  • Elizabeth

    Well, who knows what will happen at this point. First, I doubt there are very many people who even know the entire contents of the “Obamacare” bill, so we can just sit and wait and watch. I will tell you that my healthcare is so expensive for me as a lower class/working poor citizen, but at least I have some voice in my care. I cannot believe anyone would want a government-run anything. Why would you want the government to make your decisions for you? Certainly, we absolutely NEED some healthcare reform and even Nixon saw this as something that needed to be done. The problem is, you have to go through a very thorough process of overhauling heath CARE and eliminating insurance. I know that sounds really crazy, but it’s the insurance and all the legal ball of wax that makes it convoluted and expensive. We have so much fraud and waste in our already overwhelmed Medicaid system, There are too many insurance costs. Doctors are going to stop practicing because they cannot afford to do so. My doctor is now working for Walgreen’s because he couldn’t afford the malpractice insurance and the various health insurance companies he had to work with required so much paperwork and paid so little, he couldn’t afford his practice. I’m sorry, but I just do not believe in this particular plan. Someone DOES need to do something, but THIS is not the way to do it. I would much rather see a system where people pay for their healthcare on a sliding scale and no insurance was required. Doctors would ALL be required to take so many “pro bono” cases as well, to help the folks who could not afford any care on their own. Maybe it would be a system where everyone pays into a big “pool” based on income. Instead of your $700 a month for your family only, you pay that into a pool that is managed by a third party. It would sort of be like the FSA’s or HSA’s, but a portion, say 20% would go to the care of those would could pay nothing. Either way, everyone would be able to go to a doctor, get medication, and even hospitalization if necessary. I’m sure this isn’t the most solid plan and may not cover it all, but I truly believe the insurance companies make things more expensive and complicated than they have to be.

    I also know that with the upholding of the bill, my insurance is expected to go up a minimum of 40% next year. For me, that will be devastating as I am living paycheck to paycheck now and haven’t had a raise in 6 years. I hope I can manage to find a way to pay for this insurance increase. I also believe that if we are headed toward Socialism, we need to consider Margaret Thatcher’s words, “Socialism works very well until you run out of someone else’s money.”

    • Steve E

      When people who don’t depend on themselves and/or God for their needs, they will tend to depend on government as a proxy because that is all they see.

  • Tim L.

    I am always amazed that anyone cares what Sarah has to say. She’s about as dumb as a sack of hammers.

    • Nico van Niekerk

      And you say that based on what?

    • Mirage

      You’re giving Sarah Palin’s intelligence too much credit with the “hammer-bag” quip. Perhaps a sand-stone anology would be more apt … as in … dumb as a bag of rocks.
      However, her blend of attractiveness, ideology, ruthlessness, political timing, and simple good luck, have her laughing all the way to the bank.
      Oh well, who ever said life has to make sense. Anyone who can’t answer a “soft-ball” question like, “what do you read”, or even light heartedly suggests her-Alaska’s proximity to Russia, somehow offers semblence of foreign policy experience, is a joke.
      Sarah Palin … she seems to be something that rhyms with runt, though that adjective must be preceeded by dumb, naturally.

      • DaveR

        If Sarah P. is so stupid as you state, why is she still appearing in the news, and getting paid well for her comments?

      • Doug

        Kinda like the 57 states that the illegal alien for a president talks about right Mirage? You surely do live up to your name because anything you write is a mirage! And Dave you would not know what true health care is because your and idiot. You think AMA doctors know how to fix anything then stitch you up and set a bone then you truly are a bone head. I will my own medical decisions based on natural medicine while I watch lefties like you die off but not before depleting much needed resources for others. You are truly clueless I feel sorry for your kids. Let me guess you got them on some prescriptions drugs also that your doctor tells you that will fix them correct? Do yourself a favor and you might start by reading a book by Dr. Tom Levy called the Primal Panacea start there. And by the way the proof is in the pudding look at Sarah and then look at slob Moore not tell me who knows what best for their own health.

  • George

    My compliments to Elisabeth… What she said makes good sense and would be a much better approach to health care than what we have now. And she did it all without calling anyone names or insulting anyone. I can’t think of any government program that is efficient or free of massive fraud and corruption, not to mention the waste. Government health care will be just another system of massive fraud and wasted money which all the politicians will lie about while they steal all the funds.

    • Sanders

      Right on brother, and Elizabeth. An overhaul of our health care system is definitely needed. But to allow our corrupt government to handle it is like letting the fox watch the hen house. STUPIDITY AT ITS BEST!

  • R Classen

    Let’s put all the greenies in one part of the country, and people who support fossil fuels in the other part. The only energy that can be used for the greenies MUST come from wind, solar, algae, corn, etc. The rest can use oil, natural gas, and coal. Then wait a year and revisit the issue. What do you suppose might be the mindset of those “save the world” people then? Hmmmmmm……… At least Palin is pursuing the common sense goals, no matter what the tactics are.

  • Bill Hudson

    Michael Moore and his LOCOmotives are going to be derailed come November. The vast majority of Americans are going to go to the polls and take action to put Obamacare, Obama, Soros and Moore where they belong–on the trash heap of history.

    • Sanders

      I wouldn’t be too sure about that. A corporation that Soros owns in Spain will be tabulating the voting results. I’m sure Obama will win, as much as that pains me to say or think. This country is doomed, get used to it.

  • Nico van Niekerk

    It is almost impossible to reconcile the two, almost schizophrenic, arguments you make in your response. You cannot be a liberal (in the contemporary sense) and live the way you do with the convictions you enumerate. For example, you live according to the values of a conservative, constitutionalist and truthfully describe the fruits that you harvest from practicing those virtues.

    But, then you make the fatal mistake of believing that you’d be “just as happy paying that money into a government run health system” as if the government would use your money as conservatively and effectively as you do on your own.

    The government, which you so easily say you trust to be equally concerned about your and your family’s well being, has racked up debt and unfunded liabilities that put a $500,000 debt on each member of your and my family, which they will have to pay one day. This was done by both parties, so it’s the institution of government, in the first place, that’s untrustworthy, because of a very simple reason: government cannot produce anything. Everything government does has to be funded by confiscating money from the people. (

    If you were an investor, surely, you would make sure that the instruments in which you put your hard-earned money would be secure and profitable, managed by people who are competent in the field of the instruments, able to return not only the money you deposited in them, but also a profit on the risks you took. Government passes none of those tests that a responsible investor would make otherwise. Even federal bonds, which are deemed “rock-solid” investments, are underwritten by tax payers. They are worthless pieces of paper, only having value because of the government’s legal power to raise taxes to fund them. If government would use the money so raised for capital investment and infrastructure development, it would be beneficial to the country as a whole, but that is not always the case. The moneys paid into the government coffers are wasted with almost no oversight, while debts and financial promises (social security, medicare, etc) have been incurred that exceed $60 trillion. Some estimates are that the total debt exceeds $140 trillion, rivaling the total economy of the planet.

    If the holy grail of liberalism, social security, has been raided so that only federal bonds remain as funding mechanisms, what do you think would happen to a government run healthcare system? Do you think that the money would remain separate from the general fund? Do you see the fraud perpetrated by the government? The actual hard cash you and I paid into social security has been blown away, there is nothing left of it, and was replaced by federal bonds which we guarantee. So, not only is our cash gone but our future cash would be confiscated to replace the cash that has been misappropriated.
    This is exactly the kind of fraud that the conservative sector of the country wants to end. You are not a liberal by any stretch of the imagination. You are being misled, and sorely so, because of your willingness to hand over more of your cash to this beast; almost as if you are in a stupor.

    We need you to rather engage in stopping the fraud perpetrated on people like you and I, by voting out of office the Democrats and those Republicans who believe that there is still time and reason to reach across the isle. There is no compromise between the honorable, conservative way in which you have lived and conducted your life thus far, and liberalism.

    Research and knowledge might cause you to shed the scales covering your eyes which have kept you in a stupor about the Democrat Party and liberalism. Go and read who it was that fought tooth and nail to end segregation, slavery, and racism. It was not the Democrat Party, that’s for sure. Go and find out who promised future spending cuts (that never materialized) on condition of taxes being raised right away. Democrats. Who voted that you should be stripped of your liberty to live the way you do now and become subjected to the very same people that indebted your family for life? Democrats.

    But go and find that out for yourself, for your and your family’s sake. And that of the country.

    • Nancy in Nebraska

      Thank you, Nico! Well said!

    • brett

      southern conservative democrats who later turned republican most certainly did not fight to end segregation.

    • http://yahoo ron

      Really this is the same republican party that fought slavery and racism? With Palin,Trump,Limbaugh and the likes heading this republican party, they are the “old democrats” turned into republicans in the 60′s. What a strange perspective, but I’m not surprised. Propaganda rules!

      • Nancy in Nebraska

        I don’t know what news you listen to, but Palin, Trump and Limbaugh don’t head the republican party!

  • By George

    It’s Official, US Constitution: RIP

    So, now it is official! The Constitution of the United States of America has been cancelled and Supreme Court Chief Justice Roberts has proven himself the Judas. One point is abundantly clear, the third branch of government, the Judicial, the one equal branch of government, whose sole mission is to safeguard, uphold and protect the US Constitution, has apparently been bought. No other explanation can apply. One cannot help but wonder if Chief Justice Roberts was bought and at what price.

    No amount of liberal/progressive blather or explanation can justify the ignorant decision that came from todays court decision on Obamacare. Its unconstitutionally enacted provisions that will control our personal lives and our economy, is not included among the enumerated provisions that government can do. It’s what government cannot do and that has now been turned 180 degrees out of alignment. They can dance around the commerce clause and taxing authority, to justify their ruling but the fact remains, it’s still unconstitutional.

    Expect the gloating toad that now occupies the White House to move quickly to cement his edicts by executive orders to enslave Americans forever to centralized government control. We have now become a nation ruled by ‘dictate’ and no longer a nation ruled by law. Henceforth, we will be ruled by uncontrolled, ignorant, politicians, a new, unelected ruling class, who knows better than the citizens how we should spend our own money.

    Obama was correct. He is “fundamentally changing America” into a socialist (actually a fascist) state and we will forever be obligated to the government, or some politician speaking on behalf of the government, to do what we are told to do so we will all be happy because it’s only fair! The middle class will soon completely disappear and a soviet style of citizenship will naturally form. The Regional Commissions, now forming up here in Georgia, is proof of that. Unelected bureaucrats governing us whether we like it or now; taxing us for their mass transportation projects, whether we like it or not and moving us off our property whether we like it or not.

    If national health is now to be mandated because it’s a tax and not an extension of the Commerce Clause, then a complete overhaul of the tax system is required. Let’s re-examine the Fair Tax proposal, elect conservatives to enact it and throw this whole lot out, all of them and fundamentally return America to its true and valid constitutional roots.

    So, the path to correction is clear or its over. The election this year is our final chance. Conservatives must turn out the vote and remove all vestiges of Marxism in our government, all liberal (Democrats) politicians, all RiNO (Liberal) politicians and prepare ourselves for the strong arm of the fascist government, the one with the power of the gun, to start shaking us down. They are coming and they will be brutal about it. Thanks Judge Roberts for re-energizing the TEA Party. Look out they are coming.

    Remember, Freedom is the goal, The Constitution is, apparently, no longer the way. Go get ‘em!

    • CJ

      George, that just about sums it up.. I am always amazed how purportedly intelligent citizens of this Country look to their Government for help and answers. At the end of the day a typical Politician is no smarter than we are. MOST were fortunate enough to know someone in the Political Arena to get them on a Ballot to start their Political Careers and from there it becomes obvious that being given the Power to legislate gives them a euphoric feeling of ecstasy. Some people need that “feeling” so that they feel a self worth about themselves regardless of the consequences of their actions.

    • Steve E

      Let’s see here: Congress is in contempt of the Constitution, The White House is in contempt of the Constitution, and now we know now that the Supreme Court is in contempt of the Constitution. That’s three strikes, and we are Out!

      • Sanders

        FINALLY! Steve E, you get it. I know, I know. That was your usual Liberal sarcasm. You are no smarter now than you were fresh out of the womb.

    • Daveh234

      This argument about the government taking over has been ongoing for decades. Alarmist type comments we have heard for so many years are all the same. Administration after administration. It’s not just the current occupant that has been called a dictator. It’s constant anarchy in your eyes.

      • brett

        i’m still trying to figure out how obama being a fascist sells! the lack of independent thought here is scary.

      • Average Joe

        brett ,
        Sometimes we have to overlook folks like Daveh234 ….A guy who gave us polling figures that add up to 109% …instead of 100%…..obviously not the sharpest tack in the box (even bowling balls are sharper than he is)…just my observation….

        Best Wishes,

      • Katrael

        Daveh234, i guessed you haven’t noticed that the government has been chiseling away at our freedoms a little here and a little there. Taken together it is quite a lump to swallow.

    • Nancy in Nebraska

      Bought or threatened?

      • Average Joe

        My vote is for the latter ;)

        Best Wishes,

      • Nancy in Nebraska

        I’m not joking. I believe that he was threatened. He initially voted that the law was unconstitutional. He even helped come up with points for the other side. Then all of a sudden he changed his mind? I don’t believe it. obummer had already threatened them in general. I believe that someone upped the ante!

      • Average Joe

        Nancy in Nebraska ,
        I was agreeing with you….it was wink…not a smile…. ;)

        Best Wishes,

  • http://yahoo javaid

    it would be nice to curtail unecessary expenditure, military for one, and transfer the resources to improve the lives of the people of this country. it is strange really, that those earning wages pay 30-35% taxes while the rich, mitt romney being one, pay15% or less. i think what ron paul says make a lot of sense and i think he should be listened to more closely.

    • Karolyn

      Yes, cut the DOD budget, and bring all the soldiers home from around the world. Give more money to the VA to take care of them.

      • Average Joe


        So, you’re voting for Ron Paul? We all know that the other two nimrods in charge (Obamney) won’t do that, right?

        Ron Paul 2012!

        Best Wishes,

  • Steve

    “It would be nice to curtail unecessary expenditure, military for one” Yeah, it has been soooooooo long since the U.S came under attack from an enemy that we don’t need a strong military. Huh???????

    • cmi

      Besides, we have so many friends around the world that just love America so much,……they’ll protect & look out for us, right?

    • Karolyn

      Our military is still the strongest in the world. We don’t need so much bloat for our own defense. Any attacks that might happen would come from long range missiles, and you don’t need a lot of people to operate them. The DOD is overfunded, and we do not need out soldiers to be all over the world.

    • Sanders

      Americas security would be much better served with most of our military personnel protecting our shores and borders, not spread thinnly around the globe. The money saved by keeping them closer to our shores and on our borders would go a very long way to solving our fiscal problems.

  • Mike Austin

    Biggest problem is there is no money to pay for it. If the ones who want freedom stop paying taxes, it will throw the country into a severe depression. At that point, we will either realize the Federal Govt has no right to provide a benefit directly to people with others hard earned money, that they were forced to pay in taxes, or we fall and never get up.
    Either way, the teet will be dry.

    • Steve E

      The best thing to do is to make preparations for the teet to go dry, by all logic, it is going to happen if things don’t change soon. I would rather see a collapse than become a government slave.

  • Norm

    In exchange from ABC News’ January 2008 Republican presidential debate at St. Anselm College in New Hampshire, Mitt Romney declared “I like mandates” when asked by moderator Charlie Gibson about his approach to health care reform in Massachusetts.
    But there’s another moment from the debate in which Romney says “yes,” when asked is the health reform law he ushered in as governor constituted a tax.
    GIBSON: ”Governor … you imposed tax penalties in Massachusetts?”
    ROMNEY: ”Yes, we said, look, if people can afford to buy it, either buy the insurance or pay your own way; don’t be free-riders.”
    “Romney has made deceptive attacks on the President’s health care law a central part of his stump,” said Bill Burton, the head of the pro-Obama super PAC Priorities USA in response to the 2008 debate clip, “but just a few years ago Romney bragged about the big tax penalty in his health care plan.”

    Let’s cut the bulls**t!!

    • CJ

      Indeed Norm, As Governor of MA he allegedly had the STATE right to do this.. On a Federal level, not so.. We keep forgetting the difference. Let the 50 States determine their own healthcare issues.

      • Norm

        One nation, under God, with liberty and justice for all. 50 nations? NO.

        • Katrael

          Norm, I don’t know where you’re going with your statement about “fifty nations no” but I believe that you are referring to the states? The States were sovereign to begin with just like fifty little countries, Now they are over ridden by a central government that was founded by thirteen of those little countries to aid them in accomplishing what they couldn’t do separately. The central government was meant to be a servant not a dictator except where the rights of the individual were being trampled by the state. Anyway, that’s my take on history.

      • Norm

        If you are for it in principle, as Romney fervently was, how can you justify the flip flop?
        The name of the game is “discredit Obama” at any cost. Lie, cheat, slander, misrepresent are all legal as long as Obama looks bad. The sad part is that the right wing nuts eat it up.

  • Katrael

    Moore is a fat disease ridden vermin who knows that he is killing himself with his diet and he knows he can’t afford the “cures” to keep him alive so he wants every one else to pay for his pleasure.

  • Michael Lewis

    Do we need an Amendment to the Constitution to make the Supreme Court Justices stand for election like any other politicians?

    Law is supposed to be fixed. The interpretation of same should not depend on the political leanings of the majority that sit on the Supreme Court. If the Constitution was a living document it would not include an Amendment process!

    I am asking everyone I know to pray the following regarding the Supreme Court Justices, Obama and all in power that assist them.

    Psalm 109:8
    New International Version (©1984)
    May his days be few; may another take his place of leadership.

    We need to take this country back. The situation we find ourselves in is the same the founding fathers found themselves in prior to ousting the British. Only this time the enemies are the so called leaders in Washington, DC.

    How can a court that relies on precedents ignore the fact the American people have never been told, in over 200 years, how they must spend after tax dollars. Where does our money start now?

    If necessary it is time to reply to the red coats in Washington the same way our ancestors did!!!

    The vast majority of Americans said no to Obamacare. We need to force Washington to recognize “We the People” are the boss!!

    I talked with aides at several Congressional offices and suggested:

    The House is controlled by Republicans and the House controls the check book. Why doesn’t the Republican house defund Obamacare? The House can do it without the Senate and without winning the Presidency!

    If the Republican House does not defund Obamacare now, the Republican Party is revealed as a gigantic fraud!

    Congressional aides replied:

    Although the House can defund the Senate has to pass the legislation as well.

    I have not called back with my reply yet but here it is:

    It is my understanding that all financial bills must originate in the House. And if both Houses must pass legislation for it to become law, then both Houses must pass legislation to fund Obamacare. So why doesn’t the house either not originate a bill to fund Obamacare or vote against a Bill the Senate passes?

    We need to hold the feet of our Republican Congressmen to the fire!

    • brett

      i have a new version bible as well, but i don’t know the year. for as much as i value my bible, i do recognize that there are and have been many versions and translations over thousands of years, which is why there are so many different ways to interpret it.

      • Nadzieja Batki

        There are only two ways to believe the Bible. Believe what it says. Don’t believe what it says.

      • brett

        batika: i’m sorry that you missed my point. i’m glad that i don’t live in your a and b world.

  • Dave

    Now that it is just a tax, Congress can simply get rid if it with a 51% vote.

    • Daveh234

      Unless a filibuster is attempted.

    • Norm

      Odds are that Repubs keep the House , with less seats, break around even in the Senate and lose the presidency.
      When Obama is reelected he can veto it.

  • DavidL

    Michael Moore is a gadfly. Sarah Palin is profoundly ignorant.

  • brett

    i consider any kind of insurance to be a necessary evil. like quakers, i see it as gambling. it’s one thing to gamble on my personal property, but on my health? i’m all for a proper functioning capitalistic economy, which needs fair rules and oversight. laissez faire won’t work because we are inherently selfish, basic self preservation. our gov’t is broke because the constitution was not designed to support party system. democracy means compromise, majority rule without this is tyranny for the minority. our gov’t is corrupt because special interests rule over the will of the governed. you fear collectivism, but ignore the collective nature of what we call the private sector? how can we have a capitalistic democracy when the free trade of goods, services, production, labor, and wealth are inhibited due to the constraints of collected wealth that buys our so called representatives favor? i’m so tired of this tit for tat, pot calling the kettle black crap that this article presents. we must do our founding fathers’ credit by putting aside these petty, petty differences that divide us.

    • brett

      seriously, no takers? dare i presume silence as acquiesce?

      • brett

        12hrs. later. i win!!!

  • cmi

    I don’t know why, but lately Ronald Reagan quotes keep popping up in my mind! The one I think about the most goes something like this,…..”Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction. we must fight for it, protect it, and hand it on to our children for them to do the same, or one day we will spend our sunset years, telling our children & our children’s children,……what it WAS ONCE LIKE in the united states, where men were free!” Are we there yet? Another one of his quotes was,….”The nine most terrifying words in the English language are, I’m from the government and I’m here to help!”

    • brett

      reagan was a great man for his moment in time, but don’t forget that he greatly increased gov’t spending and debt to stimulate the recession that his fiscal policies created.

      • Norm

        By today’s standards he was a moderate. His biggest asset was that he united people.

  • SJJolly

    Maybe those who think govenment provided health care is (shutter!) Socialism would be willing to forgo receiving Emergency Room treatment prior to their ability to pay being certified? With the (largely Republican) members of the US House and Senate setting the example by forgoing the free health care they presently receive?

    • Nancy in Nebraska

      I don’t know about you but EVERYTIME we have gone to the emergency room, the FIRST thing they ask for is your insurance card!

  • Steve E

    The so called good things that Obamacare offers such as preexisting conditions, children on their parents policy until 26, are just bread crumbs for the uninformed that lead them to the inevitable slave trap that is waiting in 2014.

    • brett

      other than death panels, i have yet to seen any substance to all this foreboding doom.

      • http://peresonallibertydigest.. gottaplenty

        bret ifyou cant see any further than that go on to theb second grade and learn to read. There is plenty of information out there for those that care what happens to our country.

      • brett

        gottaplenty: speculations are not substance, and for self schooled, at least i can write and spell. please.

      • Nadzieja Batki

        You have such omnipresence that you know what decisions are to be made where and when and why in every doctor’s office, clinic, hospital, nursing home, hospice.
        Care has always been rationed for some patients. For some no amount of money can provide a cure and for some we don’t have the knowhow or technology to keep them alive.

      • brett

        batika: to whom were you speaking? to what are you referring? and what point are you trying to make? if you are referring to how the health insurance industry is behind all that you stated than i agree.

  • http://peresonallibertydigest.. gottaplenty

    If you noticed what a bunch of creeps our house and senate turned out to be ,and turning thier backs on U.S. by voting in that commie game ,,Obummer care. . How uncaney They were to just reach across the page and wipe off the unconstitunal fines and penalties .and just insert the word TAX so it would be (constitunional.) What a bunch of gutless ninnies , then stand back and let it happen.. Wake up time. The commies are about to overrun us…..


    I’ve been wrong once or twice but then my memory is fuzzy at times, but with this ruling from the SCOTUS, my guess is the Deemers are in disarray by having to now defend in the congress, again, not the one sided health scam but now the one sided health tax scam. Were I a Deemer this would make me hesitate because their head Fraud in the WH is now without clothes and licking both lips with his split tongue, not a inspiring sight.
    I think there will be defection among the D ranks, fortitude among the R opposition and a conservative contribution that will pull in the fence sitters by the droves.

    The Republicans can make hay here and if that’s what you want then make sure Real Republicans lead the way and keep them on the line to make all the necessary repairs, letting them get lazy and fat ruins their appeal…

  • Jeremy Leochner

    I believe there is another option. Americans can choose for themselves what they believe. I tend to agree more with Mr. Moore no pun intended. But I do disagree with him on certain things. In the case of Obama care there are certain things I disagree with. My point is it is not a matter of choosing between Palin and Moore. Every American has their own personal beliefs and will continue to be able to make their own choices politically and personally. Terrible things are not coming because of this decision. However its not going to usher in a perfect world either. We need to work at things. I believe in universal healthcare and want all Americans to be able to enjoy it. I don’t know if this law is the way to gain that for all Americans. Its the decision of the supreme court so I will follow it. But I will still be on the lookout for other possibilities.

    • Nancy in Nebraska

      First you speak of people making their own choices. Then you say you are for universal health care. The two are not compatible. You cannot force people to contribute to universal coverage and then say they had a choice!

      • Jeremy Leochner

        People have a right to choose what they believe and what they support. I support the idea of universal healthcare. People would still have the right to use an insurance company even with a government system providing for health care. I support a tax increase so the government can afford to pay for healthcare for as many Americans as possible. If you oppose such an idea that is your right and I urge you to act on your beliefs. I will try and get my idea turned into a policy as you should try and get yours. We will then see what the people and their representatives choose. f your idea gets implemented I will probably oppose it but I will adhere to the law. However I will try to get the law changed in the next election. Laws are laws. In a republic some times the law you oppose becomes law and sometimes the one you support does. Having a law that you disagree with is not evil or tyrannical or forceful. You may have to grudgingly accept it but it is still the law. We are part of a society. My idea is have the government be the source of a program to help all Americans get quality healthcare. Since we all can benefit we all must contribute to it. People still have the right to oppose a law. But while it is a law I feel the law should be obeyed. In cases like discrimination and other such horrendous laws things get murky. But taxes are the way we pay for the services and facilities that keep our country running. Requiring people to pay for such things is not taking away their right to choose. Its just requiring them to be adults who are part of a society.

      • Nancy in Nebraska

        Jeremy, I tired of the government stealing my money and giving it to their cronies. The national debt is officially listed between 13 and 15 trillion. The actual amount including unfunded liabilities is over 100 trillion. And you want to give them a few more trillion?!? I DON’T!!! Their cronies who own the medical corporations would get all the money. The government doesn’t do anything well. It’s a scam to give them control over more of OUR money. Pretty soon we won’t be able to keep ANY of our money!

    • Katrael

      Jeremy Leochner, wake up! Anytime the government can force me to buy something against my will then that’s a bad day. That includes any tax to finance something I don’t want.

      • Jeremy Leochner

        I agree that requiring people to buy insurance is bad. However I disagree that paying taxes for something you dont like makes things bad.

        • Katrael

          Jeremy Leochner, I’ll grant you that much that not everything I disagree with may be bad. However, a tax law, a healthcare system or an insurance system that is two thousand pages long is bad. Can’t be anything good in it when taken altogether. One bad apple spoils the whole barrel.

      • Dave67

        Yes they can and do… Every hear of Auto Insurance? In many states you must buy them.

        Do you have kids? If you do you have to buy car seats. No choice in the matter… (damn guvument)

        • Katrael

          Dave67, yep blankety blank gobment. I don’t have to have insurance if I don’t have a car and my kids don’t need car seats if they don’t travel in them.

      • Jeremy Leochner

        I admit a 1000 page bill is just asking for trouble. The best I figure its a complex issue and I am willing to have a detailed if somewhat novel like bill. Perhaps 600-650 pages.

  • Phillips J McFaul

    Dear Bryan,

    When Obama was sworn in as President of the United States of America, he swore on the Bible that he defend and abide by the constitution. He has not done neither of the things.
    he has usurped the constitution for his selfish personal pleasure. If the people of this country would go back to the history books and read what “HITLER” did to Germany, they would find out many of things that he did in Germany are now being done here in the United States by our ‘Fearless so called Leader’.

    • Nancy in Nebraska

      I don’t think obummer has any qualms swearing to anything on the bible. I don’t think he believes in the bible. I think he worships satan, therefore he’s not worried. The oath he took to uphold the constitution obviously means nothing to him!

      • Steve L.

        where has he not upheld the constitution?

      • Nancy in Nebraska

        Steve L, for starters, The First Ammendment gives us the right to assemble and protest our government. Now, if the Secret Service is present our rights are suspended. Or how about The Fourth Ammendment which gives us freedom from unreasonable searches and seizures. Our phones are being tapped. Everything we do online is being tracked. The government no longer needs a warrant to search your home or business. In fact they can break in when you’re not home and they don’t even have to tell you they were there. We now have drones flying overhead which have the ability to watch you inside your own home. Or how about The Fifth Ammendment which gives us the right of Habeus Corpus. The Fifth Ammendment says that we cannot be arrested or detained without evidence being presented against us to a grand jury. It says that we have the right to an attorney. This rights were suspended under the NDAA. And finally, The Second Ammendment, the right to bear arms is grave danger. hillary and obummer are getting ready to sign the u.n. small arms treaty, which if ratified will take away our Second Ammendment rights.

        Is that enough for you?!?

      • Phillips J McFaul

        The ‘IDIOT’ isn’t Christian or of the Jewish faith. His wife got him to convert from Muslim to Christianity so he could get elected into Congress. People probably wouldn’t have voted him into office otherwise.

        • http://yahoo javaid

          firstly, it is simply assuming that obama was not a christian and that his wife was instrumental in getting him converted to christianity.even, if it is admitted that he has been converted to christianity then why continue to label him a muslim? one gets the impression that it is more than just his perceived religious following that torments some people and that they are afraid to spell out the real reasons why they hate obama. i accept the man has many failings. frankly, i am disappointed with his performance, too. when he was elected i thought another JFK will be takng over the controls. it soon became evident obama doesn’t come anywhere near JFK. to be fair, i have to admit that obama inherited a mess from the previous administration. a statesman would have sorted out the mess. either he was not allowed to formulate policies to america’s advantage or he didn’t have what it took. but, what surprises me is the profiling of the islamic religion. don’t forget muslim morocco was the first country to recognise the newly independent colonies. tippu sultan of Mysore in india, who was also fighting the british imperialism, was the first to send an ambassador to the the newly established republic and was the third country to recognise it. don’t forget it was the muslim afghans who destroyed the soviet unon at the expense of 1.5 million lives, all afghans making america the sole super power. the muslims and islam were much eulogised in the 80s. once the soviet union had been dismantled and america had become the sole supreme power, it did a complete sommersault and began to denigrate muslms and islam. iraq was destroyed and 1.5 million lives killed on a trumpeted up charge it had WMD. later, all that was said was ‘oops, we made a mistake. there were no WMDs. but now that we are here, we intend to stay here’. what do you say to that? i think we better start listening to ron paul and dennis kuchenik.

          • Phillips J McFaul

            Just check what he is doing in the Middle East.

    • Jeremy Leochner

      Not to be rude Phil but what exactly has Obama done that Hitler did in Germany. Did he attempt to take over the countries government by launching a revolution from a bar with a machine gun. Did he make a deal with the more conservative members of the government to attain a high but relatively minor government post. Did he and his associates then proceed to burn the senate building within a month of his becoming president. Did he then proceed to use this burning as proof of the evil of other political parties and act to implement martial law. And did Obama then put forth legislation that explicitly stated that he would given absolute power over executive and legislative manners. And did he then proceed to out law all other political parties in our country. With all due respect Phillip Hitler did not gain power by subtly and gradually destroying Germany’s constitution and government. His power came from the burning of a major government building and the subsequent martial law that was imposed. The act that officially made him dictator was voted on by the intimidated but still free parliament. And finally his absolute power came with the mass murder of hundreds,probably thousands of his political opponents. Hitler attained power through obvious and explicit acts. The only reason the people accepted it was because they had lost faith in the republic that they never really understood and turned to a powerful figure to rule them instead. And not for nothing Hitler had exaggerations aside over 80% of the vote when he achieved power and his actions were”voted” on by Germans. Hard to imagine Obama being like Hitler when his approval ratings come no where near that high.

    • http://yahoo javaid


      for your information, obama is not the first president to trash the constitution. other presidents have done this and george bush did so most unashamedly. you cannot trash the CONSTITUTION. it is this tendency which has put america in the unsavory position it finds itself in, domesticaly and internationaly. just ask yourself why is it that britain, france, russia or china etc. have a different international reputaion compared to america. if you hit someone he is going to hit back. america went into vietnam because because of an alleged attack by a north vietnamese gun boat. it was a lie. what trauma it caused the country and the pain it inflicted on the vietnamese is there for everyone to see. america is off to other adventures now and is trying to take on two major powers. this is scary. nobody threatens america. but, if america hits someone the other country is going to react. i think prudence should be used when formlating policies rather than flexing and use of muscles. if proper diplomacy is used much can be achieved without firing a shot and everybody is happy.

  • Benjamin Fox

    Moore is nothing but a fat oversized egoist, as big as his belly and that is huge, how does he get through door ways?

  • JeffH

    Who really cares what Moore has to say…he’s made his money off of the backs of his liberal supporters…isn’t he one of the hated rich or is that liberal hate reserved just for the non-liberal rich.

    An interesting twist to the whole O’care ruling is that Roberts may have outsmarted everyone, especially the four concurring opinions that sided with him. A political decision for sure, not a constitutional decision in the least. What I mean is that this ruling will insure Obama’s defeat…Obama said it wasn’t a tax, the ruling said it was a tax. O’care is going to change or add at least 20 new taxes and over half of them will affect the under $250K middle class.

    ABC-Washington Post poll found ObamaCare sunk to its lowest popularity yet: 52 percent opposed, and only 43 percent in favor.

    The Kaiser poll showed 68 percent supportive of a repeal of the individual mandate. Of four core components of the health care law tested in the poll, the individual mandate was the one with the highest negatives, by far. Seventy percent of all those polled said they held an unfavorable view of the requirement that everyone carry insurance, including 52 percent who had “strongly unfavorable” opinions.

    The latest Rasmussen Reports national telephone survey shows that 52% of Likely U.S. Voters favor repeal of the health care law, while 39% are opposed.

    A ruling against Obamacare would have stirred up Obama’s voters because it would have been perceived as an attack against Obama himself. Even the liberals who don’t like Obamacare would have rushed to the voting booth to defend their leader. Leaving Obamacare in place had the opposite effect. It made liberals less likely to be mad enough to vote, and it certainly riled up the conservative voters. This effect is demonstrated by the millions of dollars raised by the Romney campaign between Thursday morning and now.

    It certainly raises the question that Justice Roberts’ appalling disregard of the Constitution was motivated by his desire to ensure Obama’s defeat in November. This would explain his surprising agreement with Kagan, Sotomayor, Bryer, and Ginsberg. It explains his disregard of well-established precedent on the tax and spend clause. It explains what is otherwise a completely unsupportable ruling.

    I have also read, but not confirmed, that one Republican Senator stated that Congress would never attempt to impeach Obama before the November election, regardless of what crimes Obama may commit, because any such attempt would bring out the Obama voter base.

    • brett

      you base your argument on empty meaningless opinion polls? ha!

      • JeffH

        brett, that was a brilliant retort. Public education I bet!

      • JeffH

        Not so brilliant brett…was my comment an arguement or an opinion?

        Real knowledge is to know the extent of one’s ignorance.


      • brett

        moods sway, especially when they’re manipulated. o.k. it was an opinion of opinions posed as an argument ( sorry no e ). i read a lot everywhere, shame you dropped off at

      • Average Joe

        brett ,
        Actual rebuttals (as opposed to one liners) may go a long way towards making yourself “appear” credible.
        Also, making complete sentences goes a long way too.
        You may want to try those two things in the future. Your opinion and $5 will get you a cup of coffee in some places…this isn’t one of those places.
        Bring verifiable facts or don’t bother commenting…it shows your ignorance of the subject matter…ewwww, that’s nasty, cover yourself!

        Best Wishes,

      • brett

        aj: ewww? what are you talking about? what dribble! a counter argument is not the same as a rebuttal. and what facts do i need to produce to support that polls and opinions aren’t subject to manipulation and therefore not a creditable source?

    • Dave67


      Rassmussen is a conservative leaning polling outfit. Try again…

      Do people like coverage for pre-existing conditions? YES
      Do people like having at least 80% of premium money taken in by insurance firms to be used for actual HC coverage or they get a refund/lover premium? YES
      Do students coming out of college appreciate the break of being allowed to stay on their parent’s insurance until age 26? YES

      This HC law while far from perfect does more to get the freeloaders off the system than the GOP plan of doing nothing. Its less expensive too… But you have to hand it to right wing marketing… They are effectiveness in their lying.

      You conservatives did NOTHING when you had all 3 branches of Gov to do your bidding. You thought war with Iraq and more tax cuts we can’t afford at the same time were more important. That is your side’s record.

      This system stinks and will continue to stink until we get a public system.

      • JeffH

        Dave67, how convenient that you failed to mention the hard left leaning ABC’s poll that mirrored Rassmussen’s.

        You’re a hard left leaning liberal yourself so I’d have to say your questions and your opinions are based more on rhetoric and emotion than common sense or knowledge.

        The bottom line is that Rassmussen’s poll was right in line with ABC’s poll…so tell me again how biased Rassmissen’s poll numbers are?

        Oh and thanks for calling me a conservative rather than Republican.

        FYI, the “conservatives” have never had control of all 3 branches of government…therein lies your problem. If you thought BushII was a conservative…well, uh, nevermind.

      • JeffH

        You also say “This HC law while far from perfect(not even close)does more to get the freeloaders off the system than the GOP plan of doing nothing.

        I’d really like to hear your thoughts on why you believe O’care “does more to get the freeloaders off the system than the GOP plan of doing nothing.

      • JeffH

        Dave67, do you recall these words from “Nazi” Pelosi?(Pelosi is delusional and idiotic)

        ( – House Speaker Nancy Pelosi said this week that thanks to the new health-care reform law, musicians and other creative types could quit their jobs and focus on developing their talents because taxpayers would fund their health care coverage.

        “We see it as an entrepreneurial bill,” Pelosi said, “a bill that says to someone, if you want to be creative and be a musician or whatever, you can leave your work, focus on your talent, your skill, your passion, your aspirations because you will have health care.”

        And this: Obama Administration Admits to Court: Under Obamacare, Select Group Can Get Health Care, Not Pay for It, Not Buy Insurance, Not Pay Penalty.

        “…in the Supreme Court on Monday, Justice Samuel Alito forced President Barack Obama’s solicitor general, Donald Verrilli, to admit that under Obamacare these free riders will not be eliminated despite the individual mandate.

        For an elite group—including people eligible for Medicaid who don’t sign up for it and people whose health care expenses exceed 8 percent of their income—the Obamacare mandate is no mandate and the penalty is neither a penalty nor a tax because they are not required to pay it, period.

        Under Obamacare, Verrilli conceded, these people can continue to receive free health care care, not sign up for health insurance, not sign up for Medicaid, and not pay a penalty

      • JeffH

        One more thing…if you believe “Medicaid” is a step in the right direction, a move forward, then I think I’d like to do some sort of a business deal with you if you’re intersted…a real chance to make some good profit off of a small investment, guaranteed…trust me on that!

      • Dave67


        Its funny… Bush was a conservative until he gets into power… The GOP are all conservatives until they get in charge and have a record… then they become neocons… Its quite comical how conservatives are NEVER responsible.

        If you are a poor person and you get sick and you could not afford HC, if you got really sick, you would go to the emergency room and get the most expensive care there is. That person cannot pay so that cost is passed on to the rest of us.

        You have young people who believe themselves to be indestructible. They may opt not to get HC insurance because afterall, “I’m 24 and fit as a fiddle” Well societies work like this… Everyone pays into the system because eventually that 24 year old becomes a 64 year old person and requires HC more, so the young people subsidize the costs of the other people in the system. The trouble now is the baby boomer generation makes the system heavier on the older side, medicare and the HC system needs everyone in the system paying into it to avoid either have a drastic reduction in benefits which people do not want or a massive tax hike to get through the baby-boomer generation. Its mathmatics

        Its just how societies work…The “me first and screw everyone else” mentality of the conservative movement in this country is not conducive to well running society. Its just the facts.

        There are conservatives in the Democratic party so that is why Republican/Democrat label do not work.

        Now if you want to talk about how the food industry has helped push medical costs through the roof, I can have that discussion as well. That is why farm subsidies need to end. Then we can talk about how big pharma pushes drugs unnecessarily for everything from a hang nail to weight loss as a contributing factor.

        But that may be a bit too deep for the bumper sticker politics crowd that buys into the fearmongering that gets shoveled around here in great loads…and I do mean loads.

      • JeffH

        Dave67, that’s how progressivism works, hold no individual accountable, hold no individual responsible…the end justifies the means.

        “The Problem With Socialism Is That Sooner Or Later You Run Out Of Other People’s Money To Spend.”

      • JeffH

        Are we nearing a point when there are no longer enough taxpayers to support all of the tax consumers in America? Such questions become increasingly important as Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, federal civil service retirement, and legions of state and local pension funds approach their days of reckoning as millions of retiring baby boomers demand far more benefits than those programs have been prepared to pay out. And don’t forget the growing share of personal income that is derived from government transfer payments such as unemployment, veterans benefits, and the like. If these ruminations sound ominous, they should.

        How much longer can the U.S. economy continue to produce enough wealth to sustain a growing class of people who depend on government for some or all of their daily necessities?

        There is a saying, apparently from Oregon, that you do not know how big a tree is until you cut it down. It is a human tendency not to value something until it is under assault or lost.

        I never would have thought about the American tradition of personal responsibility in any systematic fashion if it were not being attacked as broadly as it is.

        It is the responsibility of parents and educators to teach each succeeding generation of Americans the unique worth of America. By and large, they have not.

        American individualism and the Judeo-Christian notion of personal accountability gave us the extraordinary nation that we built here. We have raised a generation to value and monitor their feelings rather than their behavior.

        If someone discovers a cure for cancer of the pancreas because he wants the Nobel Prize for medicine, do you care? You care that someone who has cancer of the pancreas is now going to live. This belief that motives and feelings are what matter destroys personal responsibility. America is becoming a feelings-based society. That’s why the mother asked, “How do you feel?” to her son the bully instead of worrying about that later and yelling at him, at the moment he bullied, “Never do that again. I do not care how depressed you are. I do not care how socioeconomically deprived you feel.”

    • Average Joe

      brett ,
      Guess I forgot to mention, spelling and punctuation also count…when you are attempting to “appear” intelligent.

      “what dribble!”

      Were you attempting to use the word,”drivel”?

      “a counter argument is not the same as a rebuttal. ”

      Sentences begin with a capitalized letter, in this case, “A”.

      “and what facts do i need to produce to support that polls and opinions aren’t subject to manipulation and therefore not a creditable source?”

      Sentences do not typically start with the word, “and” ,especially when it is actually a continution of a statement ( as in this case).

      Also, you may wish to consider proper punctuation within your sentence structure.

      If you wish to be percieved as somewhat intelligent or credible, you must begin… by giving us something to work with.

      Education is a wonderful thing…get some.

      Best Wishes,

      • JeffH

        AJ, I tell ya’ it’s a disease that has no cure and can’t be fixed. :)

      • brett

        nope, i see drool. critiquing my style of being concise isn’t changing my view.

      • Average Joe

        Ain’t that the truth! ;)

      • Average Joe


        You write:

        “nope, i see drool. ”

        You may wish to consider wiping your face…while it’s still on your face…very unsightly in public, don’t you know?

        Best Wishes,

      • brett

        love tater salad! but maybe you both set aside that mirror. in my opinion, of course, you both lose. oh, and if you have to know: three different public schools, two private; one secular, the other religious. if you ever have a valid point to make, let me know!

      • brett

        you should check out bill hicks. he’s scary funny because it’s true!

      • Average Joe

        “you should check out bill hicks. he’s scary funny because it’s true!”

        I actually miss Bill Hicks, but alas, he is no longer with us….and he would pobably agree with me, as would George Calrlin.

        Best Wishes,

      • brett

        hicks and carlin ( one l ) were both fervently anti-consevative, so if you had ever made any point, i seriously doubt they would have agreed with you ( i will accept corrupt gov’t, but i’m willing to wager that the whys wouldn’t match ). at best all you have offered is schoolyard- i know you are but what am i. you are the bust. and tell jeff that the heritage foundation was the first to come up with the individual mandate because it benefits the insurance companies.

      • Average Joe


        Actually I did misspell Carlin ( noticed it as I posted it). Unlike you though, I have learned how to capitalize words. and make complete sentences.
        My point is simply this,:
        If you wish to be taken seriously, try using proper grammer, spelling and punctuation….otherwise, you come off as being illiterate and most of us don’t put much stock in illiterate people or their views.
        If you’ve still missed the message…my condolences to you, I can’t help with your affliction.

        Best Wishes,

      • brett

        there you go again, avoiding any point. did you intentionally not capitalize a in and? what are you drunk? because i noticed that a miss reply of yours made more sense where you first posted, and had nothing to do with the reply where you subsequently reposted with an apology. dave67 has had you at mate ( and jeffh for that matter ) and you’re thoroughly delusional. neither of you have a clue as to anything you have tried to pathetically put forth.

      • Average Joe

        You write:
        “there you go again, avoiding any point. did you intentionally not capitalize a in and? ”

        Uh no…I did accidently hit a period though…before the word, “and”.
        I thought we covered not starting sentences with the word “and”…I guess that went whizzing past you as well.

        You write:
        “what are you drunk? ”

        1. I don’t drink alcohol (at all).
        2. proper punctuation would be “What, are you drunk?” or “What? Are you drunk?” or even,”What are you? drunk?”

        You write:
        “because i noticed that a miss reply of yours made more sense where you first posted, and had nothing to do with the reply where you subsequently reposted with an apology.

        If you noticed it, you also noticed that it was an immediate apology for the person that I replied too, followed by the original reply being re-posted to its intended recipient.

        You write:
        “dave67 has had you at mate ( and jeffh for that matter ) and you’re thoroughly delusional. neither of you have a clue as to anything you have tried to pathetically put forth.’

        While you may be funny, looks aren’t everything.
        In order to have a “mate’ one must actually play the game…sitting back and debating how pretty the board is…doesn’t qualify as “playing the game”. So far, neither you or Dave67 have brought anything to the table other than opinion ( you do know what they say about thse pesky opinions, right?).

        Ok, go for it. Say something else unintelligent. ( you know it’s eating you up).

        yada, yada, yada……..yawn…..

        Best Wishes,

      • brett

        ugh! more dancing around the point with nit picking. this is an open forum, not a doctoral thesis, do you not understand poetic license? i thought “style” was a clue. granted that i may be pontificating, both dave and i have brought more to the board than you. this tirade began when i made the point that polls are not creditable because they are open to manipulation. all of your responses have been nothing more than snarky myopic egotistical criticism. i would have excused you had you been drunk. wish you could, could respond intelligently. may god speed you on your way.

  • Dan Mancuso

    Sarah Palin: Working mom, small town conservative, Christian, from the west coast, not eastern establishment. What a babe.
    Micheal Moore: Fat, ugly, sloppy hippy type socialist…
    Great Pics!

    • Dave67

      Palin, mayor of the meth capital of AK, I see Russia from Alaska that makes me an expert of foreign policy, master of bumpersticker politics as long as answers are written on my hand. Has her PHd in pointing to green screens to show where the next weather system is coming from.

      IN other words… an empty head.

      • JeffH

        Dave67, man-o-man is it ever so obvious where you get your talking points from. Tina Faye and the MSM. Have you ever considered actually verifying what you say do you prefer to parrot Media Matters and the Huff-n-toke?

        Just in case you didn’t know, you can see Russia from Alaska!

      • jopa

        Very good points Dave I still have to laugh about her stating she can see Russia from her front porch.That babe is priceless and getting pretty chunky these days.

      • JeffH

        Two peas in a pod.

      • Average Joe

        Dave67 and Jopa,

        Have either of you ever looked a a map of the world? Apparently neither of you have. If you had, you would realize that there are islands between mainland Russia and mainland Alaska. You would also realize that out in the ocean…on the farthest Alaskin island…that you can spot on the horizon…another island…that is part of (drum roll please)…Russia. Wow, you really can see Russia from Alaska. A bit of critical thinking goes a long way towards improving the ablility to discern fact from fiction.

        “In her Sept. 11 interview with ABC’s Charlie Gibson, Sarah Palin had this to say about Russia: “They’re our next-door neighbors, and you can actually see Russia from land here in Alaska, from an island in Alaska.” Is that true?

        Yes. Russia and Alaska are divided by the Bering Strait, which is about 55 miles at its narrowest point. In the middle of the Bering Strait are two small, sparsely populated islands: Big Diomede, which sits in Russian territory, and Little Diomede, which is part of the United States. At their closest, these two islands are a little less than two and a half miles apart, which means that, on a clear day, you can definitely see one from the other.”

        Best Wishes,

      • JeffH

        AJ, easy on jopa…not only is he/she senile, but he/she is a student of “The National Enquirer”.

      • Average Joe


        it must be really for folks like him…waking up stupid…and then realizing the day isn’t going to get any better….lol

        BTW, thnx for the link above…I needed a good laugh ( other than at silly mind-controlled liberals loons ;) ).

    • Dave67


      Context, my kingdom for context!!!

      Yes, you can see Russia from Alaska… and her contention is that fact gives her a leg up on foreign policy issues when she was part of the McCain ticket.

      But once again, you prove just how silly and comical conservatives are.


      You say progressives are never responsible? You conservatives go very upset with the non-progressive Obama when he apologized to countries where we did wrong… I believe its called taking responsibility.

      But I am sure you have many instances where conservatives (Reagan, Bush 1 and Bsuh 2 made mistakes)… Go ahead and list them for me if you could.


      • Dave67

        I should clarify, Conservatives made mistakes and took responsibility for them. I am sure you have plenty of examples.

      • Average Joe

        Dave67 ,

        Having a “rough” day?

        Best Wishes,

      • jopa

        Dave67;When you said she had a leg up on foreign policy you were wrong again.When her leg was up it was because of flatuation from the over consumption of moose.It is a common problem in the Alaskan widerness.And yes you an see Russia from an island off the AK. coast but not from Wasilla.Take a look at Google earth for veriffication.

      • JeffH

        Dave67, to clear up any confusion, here’s a little lesson you might enjoy, or not. Obama isn’t a “progressive”, he’s an Alinsky schooled radical Marxist community organizer. I prefer to think of him as a hybrid communist myself.

        suppose something: to accept that something is true without checking or confirming it.

      • Dave67


        LOL! Your conservative propaganda is so cute and false.

        If you think liberalism as practiced in the US is akin to the Nazis or Stalin… feel free to believe your nonsense.

        Liberals and Progressives understand that societies do not survive if wealth is concentrated all at the top. Societies do better when there is equality and less gaming of the system by those with the money and power to change laws. Do you have proof to the contrary?

        Was it conservatives of their day that ended slavery?, Got the right to vote for women? Civil rights in the 1950′s and 1960′s? How about the protests that ended the Vietnam war?

        Sorry, You are out of your mind with that nonsense post.

      • Dave67

        One thing you can count on Conservatives to:

        1)Throw around terms like Marxist, Socialist and Communist and have little comprehension what the terms actually mean
        2) Use the same old right wing talking points that were BS to begiin with
        3) Use fear, exaggeration and lies to keep the scared little conservative rabbits in line.


        Is that why Obama bailed out the banks part 2? He is a Marxist? LOL!

      • JeffH

        Dave67, it’s only nonsense to you progressive,Marxist communists but not to free men and women. Keep believing that the government is your keeper.

        According to the Declaration, if you recall, rights such as Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness come from nature, are gifts of God, and therefore precede government. According to the progressives something close to the reverse needs be believed. Rights come after governments because “rights” are the results of positive actions taken by those in power.

        Under progressive philosophy, freedom is understood as a condition brought upon individuals by the state, not a right already naturally possessed by the individual. Adding to that, the state decides which groups of people are worthy of such freedom, termed “valuable associations.” Although progressives continue to use the word, freedom, they’re simply redefining its meaning.

        Changing the definition and understanding freedom changes the fundamental relationship between you and your government. The progressives would deny a citizen is free or could be free existing in a country where the negative understanding of freedom prescribed his relationship with his government. So, too, would a partisan of individual liberty deny that citizens in a progressive socialist state are free. Why? The role of government in each vision is diametrically opposed. People cannot be free, individually free, when their government orders the walk of their daily lives, economically and politically, and becomes the caretaker of their welfare.

        Most think of socialism as a system where the government controls most everything. While not untrue, this definition is lacking. Socialism is an applied form of Marxism, as is fascism and communism. Socialism means the state owns and directs most of the means of economic production, that economic activity is directed primarily by central government planners and not by the demands of a free market, and that government is the primary owner of capital. In whatever degree, a forced redistribution of income, from the wealthy to the poor, occurs through the dictates of the ruling class. Karl Marx and other communists believed socialism is the middle stage of society, coming out capitalism and entering communism. Countries can be socialist in varying degrees, depending on how close they are to outright communism or how much freedom they allow to exist.

        • Katrael

          JeffH, communism/socialism/fascism have Never achieved equality for the people as there are the ruled and the rulers. The rulers live in style while supposedly everyone else lives well. What a lie.

      • Dave67


        We must agree to disagree that you have any sort of factual information on progressives and liberals in America, the history of liberalism in this country and the history of conservatism in this country while we are at it.

        You simply have no clue. I am a proud liberal. I have done my homework to know Socialism, Communism, Capitalism all fail on their own due to the human condition. Marxism is Karl Marx envisioned is also a false assumption.

        Since you accuse me of being a Marxist. I think you are a fascist. Not based on any factual data mind you, just because it sounds good to call you a fascist. Because Jeff, I want to be like you… I want to assume that I know all about Obama, you and your conservative brethren because I listen to what MSNBC and Michael Moore says you are.

        That does two things… It minimizes your beliefs while making me feel secure in mine because I want to be like you and completely insecure in my movement’s history that I have to lie about the other.

        It feels great to be a conservative like that.

      • JeffH

        Dave67, despite your confusion I see you for what you are, not what you think you are.

    • Average Joe

      it must be really “rough” for folks like him

      • Dave67

        Nope, just enjoy helping expose conservative BS talking points and extremism for what they are.

      • Average Joe

        Keep us posted…we’re still waiting for you to start doing that.
        So far, you’ve been a bust….

        Best Wishes,

      • JeffH

        LMAO! Dave67 says “just enjoy helping expose conservative BS talking points and extremism for what they are.”

        That’s why I like having you liberals and progressives posting comments…they like to accuse others of what they’re actually guilty of…kinda like a dog chasing it’s tail.

        Progressivism was a major reform movement that began in the late 1800s. The movement shared the intellectual roots of European state theorists such as Hegel and Marx. In 20th century Europe their ideas came to fruition in the forms of communism in Russia, national socialism––that is, Naziism––in Germany, and fascism in Italy, respectively.

        These movements were ideological cousins of American Progressivism, certainly not isolated from one another; their respective leaders read the same philosophers and made the same arguments, albeit in their respective cultural contexts.

        Progressivism advocates—then and now—a total break from the principles of freedom articulated in our founding documents, particularly the Declaration of Independence. It seeks to either get around or dismantle limitations on government power, the very constitutional limitations established in the Constitution for the protection of individual freedom.

        For this reason, the progressives desire for something old in world history, not something new.

        “No advance, no progress can be made beyond these propositions. If anyone wishes to deny their truth or their soundness, the only direction in which he can proceed historically is not forward, but backward toward the time when there was no equality, no rights of the individual, no rule of the people.

        Those who wish to proceed in that direction cannot lay claim to progress. They are reactionary. Their ideas are not more modern, but more ancient, than those of the Revolutionary fathers.” (President Coolidge-July 5, 1926)

      • Average Joe

        JeffH ,
        The sad thing is, the liberals think that they are being helpful in their foolish pursuits, when in reality, they can be no more free than by simply forcing the government to live up to the Constitutional principles of our founding documents. They go through the movments of being pollitically active, campaigning, voting and electing officials to represent them in offices from the local level to the nations capitol…and all they seem to get motivated about is…the election of the federal government. They obviously elected their local and state governments…to look pretty and no other reason.
        It is obvious, because they seem to think that the federal government is the only people smart enough to “fix” all of their “problems”. Obviously they believe that the folks that they elected at the local and state levels…are just too dang dumb…to govern them….they want the feds to do it all right? So, they’ve hired and pay people to sit in the statehouses and other govmnt. bldgs. at a considerable cost in tax dollars…but they aren’t smart enough to govern your state in a proper manor…the FEDS MUST DO ALL!

        Obviously, they (liberals) don’t understand that the Gvmnt…is the middleman in a wierd, twisted sort of game…where we…send the feds our money, they in turn offer to give “some” of that money back…with strings attched (of course). They (liberals) don’t understand that they can cut out the middleman completely…keep the state’s money in the state and…by not having to have any strings attached…it means more prosperity for the state…and therefore, for it’s citizens. They think that the folks “they” elected are too stupid to do the right things for their states and themselves…..The FEDS MUST DO IT ALL!

        I guess that if their local reps aren’t smart enough to repesent them properly…you have to wonder about the intelligence of those that elected them to represent and then ignore them and look to the feds for their salvation.

        Shrinking the federal gvmnt. is a good thing, allowing our local and state governments to handle our representation is a proper course of governance. Allowing the federal gvmnt to play “middleman” is absolutely the wrong way to find our salvation…it is akin to Blasphemy!

        For those who “don’t get it”….. You are sending your money to the feds, who are holding your money as ransom…to achieve whatever goals THEY “deem rightious” in their eyes….and their goal is quite simply…MONEY (O.P.’s) and POWER… over other people…that’s it…in a nutshell.
        We are enabling them by sending them the money in the first place. Keep the money in the local and state economy…let’s hold the money hostage from the middleman for a change….until we see” real change”. It isn’t a Red vs Blue or Dem vs Reps issue…it is every single one of those “scoundrels” in DC…they are the middlemen…they take our money, they take the money of the corporate interests….they are the people holding our prosperity for ransom, all for their own gain….if any of you folks still don’t get it:

        If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or your arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.
        Samuel Adams

        Best Wishes,

      • http://none Claire

        JeffH–Did you happen to read my post concerning my son? Well, the doctors are still haggling with Health Alliance. Seems to me death panels are already here.

      • JeffH

        Claire, I sure did. It’s appalling to say the least and it looks like it’s going to get worse before it gets better. Until there is real legislative reform without the political ideaology I suspect we’ll all end up in the same boat. Stay strong and give ‘em heck…best wishes for Tim!

  • Scott Medeiros

    Are you people insane, this is why nothing gets done, always playing the blame game. I considered myself conservative until I looked up the meaning. tending to favor the preservation of the existing order, I’m no genius like most of you claim but, does that not mean stagnant,. to me that means death. I thought please lord, I cant be a liberal so I looked that up. WOW, Having, expressing or following views or policies that favor the FREEDOM of INDIVIDUALS to act or express themselves in a manner of their own choosing. You self proclaimed liberals are not even liberals you are delusional. This is why nothing gets done either on this page or in goverment you are all a bunch of babies throwing tantrums, please grow up and meet in the middle. I don’t have a job or medical, I could get assistance, but i have some pride left I’m getting by with whatevers means I have, legally of course and 100′s of applications I’m filling out will pay off one day. I am no fan of obama, I am disgusted every time I see his picture. but it’s your fault for electing him and our politicians on both sides of the party. So until we throw out the constitution and become a socialist country like obama wants, or start following it like our forefathers suggested we are a third world mentality with a first world empty bank account.
    P.S. everyone have a wonderful day SINCERELY

    • brett

      social democracy is not the same as socialism. i agree with your other definitions though.

      • Scott Medeiros

        Thank you for you correction Brett, greatly appreciated

      • brett

        de nada.

  • Benjamin Fox

    Progressive? Hitler was, Stalin was Mao was, they killed more people then anyone going? Progressive means, left wing government over the people, not for the people, isn’t that double speak? Orwell is laughing his dead butt off these days.

    • Jeremy Leochner

      Hitler was not progressive. He looked to an old fashioned idea of a single ruler controlling the whole country with him as that single ruler. Stalin was a murderous paranoid sociopath who wanted all power for himself. And Mao was a radical on the far far left which resulted in a communist tyranny. Progressive means a desire for progress, for new ideas. I am a progressive and I do not consider myself to be like Hitler, Stalin or Mao.

      • brett

        shame most here don’t know what they are talking about and can only regurgitate the same group think crap they believe is legit backing it up with speculation, hearsay, and conjecture. coincidently, i just so happen to have kelly’s court in the background. ha!

  • Patriot

    Please notice the amount of posts Sarvis & Flashy have on this site, they are paid for poltical hacks, never respond to these fools, you can not debate a FOOL!

    • brett

      afraid of a little criticism are we?

  • Charles Johnson

    Here is a fun little piece to add to the arguments against this “law”. Most of the actual workings of this law will be created not by elected officials but by bureaucrats.

    • brett

      a.k.a. lobbyists representing health care industry.

  • Jmlaport

    history serves one if not great purpose…to remind us of the mistakes we’ve made in the past and (hopefully) not repeat them. all i will say is this: the first thing Hitler did when he rose to power, was nationalize Germany’s healthcare. when they couldn’t afford the growing costs, that’s when he installed the death panels to euthanize all those people that had genetic defects which deemed them too sick to carry on. now the federal govt gets to decide if you are even worth the cost of your treatment before your doctor can even give you the results of any diagnostic test u take. basically you people are letting the govt take control of your life when it comes to your health….

    • brett

      i really love these allusions of fascism.

    • Jeremy Leochner

      Actually Hitler intended to implement the euthanasia all along. The universal healthcare was a lie that was fabricated on a view that all “aryans” deserved equal care but that the “weak and infirm” should be killed. When Hitler talked about universal health care he was lying. He did not genuinely believe all people deserved health care. He just wanted to kill any one he saw as non aryan. Also the first thing Hitler did was to get himself all powerful and then destroy all political parties. Also he by the time he became all powerful all the basic human rights of the German citizens were already gone.
      Also there are no death panels. That was a misinterpretation of a provision which offers end of life counseling for patients in dire condition. They still have a choice of life or not. Plus for the sake of argument right now insurance companies get to decide whether or not to cover even critical procedures and can tell a dying person that that surgery or that medicine is not covered and that they must either go without or find some way to pay for it themselves. Basically don’t have the surgery you need to survive or find a way to pay the bills with money you don’t have. That sounds more like a death panel to me.

      • brett

        bingo. exactly why this equalizing to fascism is nonsense.

    • Steve L.

      Right now we have the same death panels, its the insurance companies,they do all day long

      • http://none Claire

        Steve L. — I am inclined to agree with you.

  • Richard R. Tryon

    It would help to recognize that it is good that Liberals think of how to improve that which they want to see be improved regardless of the cost or ability to make the idea work! It is equally good that Conservatives stop to measure important considerations from lesson learned.

    To my knowledge and study of political history, no nation has found a less costly medical care system supported by either insurance or taxes that outperforms savings and direct negotiations between patient and provider. Insurance against catastrophe is an obvious essential in most cases to avoid bankruptcy for most, but that does not make it less costly to let bureaucrats get employed to mess up the equation and mire down in legal hassles what needs to be done.

    • brett

      more dribble! health care will always be expensive, so of course no nation has found a less costly system. the current system is even more expensive because of third party administrative costs and less effective because profit is more important than people.

      • Dale on the left coast

        I would suggest Brett that you check into the HC systems in Germany and France.
        Both countries allow private hospitals, clinics and of course doctor’s offices. But . . . the rates are set and paid at the same rate . . . whether you go to a private institution or a govt run institution.
        The reality is the private for profit sector has grown larger than the govt side . . . but the service in both systems has improved . . . and the evil private corporations MAKE A PROFIT . . . how terrible ! ! !
        O’bammy-care contains 20 tax increases and will decimate the already poor US economy.
        And what do you call a few Bureaucrats deciding whether Grandma will get the Drugs or Treatment she needs? It surely will not be a “Death Panel” . . . will it?

      • Dave67

        Hey Dale,

        Question, if France’s #1 HC system in the world is so bad and America’s so good… Why are country’s not going for our great system? In fact, Canada voted overwhelmingly to reject a 2 tier private system like ours by 87%. Is the rest of the world just misguided?

        But our system is great right?

    • Jeremy Leochner

      My thought is insurance companies have gone over board but they are not necessarily the bad guys in this situation. Health insurance companies have to cover the most unpredictable thing of all, the human body. With a car one can choose when how and where to drive it. Depending on how safe a driver is and how often they drive a car insurance company may never have to spend a dime on certain customers. With health insurance companies there is a vastly bigger group of customers and possible problems to cover. So they have to find some way to make sure they dont get taken in by fraud and to not pay for things that are not necessary. Unfortunately like all things people can go overboard. In their attempts to avert fraud they deny care to people who do need it and sometimes what an insurance agent does not think is necessary may be so regardless. I believe numerous health insurance companies have gone so far in attempting to prevent unnecessary costs that they are neglecting their customers. They are not evil monsters with no regard for human life. They are trying to stay in business and unfortunately their “product” is their customers lives and health. I figure if there was a way to lessen the number of people dependent on insurance companies perhaps these insurance companies could provide more attention to the fewer customers. I figure a government system cannot pay for all types of procedures or facilities or specialists. But they can lessen the burden on health insurance companies. Since government cant fix everything people will always need insurance companies. But since government can provide a fairly good level of support fewer people will need health insurance companies which will give health insurance companies less customers to divide their money to. So they can focus more resources on fewer customers. With more quality care people will surely continue going to insurance companies. But with a government system providing support to those areas they can afford to support, more people will have access to care and with a bigger supporter in the game people in general will get better quality care. Whether in a well funded government supported hospital or an insurance paid visit to a certain specialist. With government and insurance companies both providing for the people more can be satisfied.

      • brett

        i’d rather heath care not be burden by insurance.

  • Don_in_DC

    In reading the posts I have to be a little sad overall. All the insults from both sides of the party lines become childish. The few glaring problems I see. 1) Healthcare in this country is already over-priced and it does need reform. 2) this legislation does nothing to improve it. It supports all the wrong parts and skips over the parts that need to happen. Stop sticking to the party lines and thinking your party is great and the other is totally moronic. We have problems and neither side is really addressing them. In a matter of about 12 years we have seen both parties spend to insane figures and accomplish very little except making it all worse. This HC reform is going to cause problems because it only magnifies the problems it already had. The politicians aren’t a part of it, the rich can afford to go find better healthcare in other countries. The ones left holding the bag are as always the middle class that can’t afford such luxuries. The government will continue to spend and grow until it is impossible to continue. The only question is how long do we the people allow it to continue before we enact change? The rich are diversifying their income overseas while the poor are left to struggle here. Those rich will be able to pick up the pieces after revolution occurs and jump back in to the newly created revamp of the US and start the whole mess over again. Do you think your politicians aren’t part of that rich? Do you really think there is a huge difference between either party? If you really can look at your “party” and see it as good while the other is bad then you too are part of the problem because you can’t see the enemy. Both sides screw everyone. There are good examples on both sides too. There are good arguments on both sides. It isn’t as simple as a single issue that either side preaches. Both conservatives and liberals have some good ideas but both execute them badly. Most of you argue a party line to win a battle and yet we are losing the war. We are quickly defining what is the most stupid and dangerous of ideas…socialism meets capitalism to where only the bad of both is implemented. We would be better off with either extreme rather than taking the worst ideas from both and trying to make a final solution.

  • brett

    so convoluted and true!

  • Silas Longshot

    Huge locomotive, eh Moore? Well, guess what, little guys with a few hand tools, known as conservative candidates elected to flush out the load in the toilet known as Washington DC will ‘derail’ you little choo-choo.

  • Purplewarrior

    To all of you fools who rail about Obama care go to Fact Check:Keeping your current health plan. Look it up,read it. I guess the AP Article is a lie. When will you people ever learn that no one man can rule with out the approval of congress. When the law was voted on REPUBLICANS AND DEMOCRATS voted for it. This same law was instituted in Massachusetts under Mitt Romney, The same law. And reports from that state praise it for saving lives and helping millions.Is it because the Romney plan was accepted because he is WHITE and the Obama plane was rejected because he is BLACK? No not in the great UNITED STATES where there is no racism. THEY ARE BOTH THE SAME PLAN with a few modifications. How can that be unless there is real racial overtones. The tax is a penalty for those who don’t acquire insurance. Who pays to put this plan in place,? again go to FACT CHECK;KEEPING YOUR CURRENT HEALTH PLAN, The article lays out who pays for it. The real problem in this country is not Obama it’s both sides of CONGRESS. These people think they are above the law. INSIDER TRADING, THAT’S OK NO ONE WILL KNOW AM I BREAKING THE LAW, NO BECAUSE WE ARE EXEMPT FROM THE LAW. PORK BARREL SPENDING , THAT’S OK MY DISTRICT NEEDS TO STUDY HOW SALMON EGGS IS ATTACH TO ROCKS .lobbyist, WE NEED THEM BECAUSE BIG CORPORATIONS NEED A SPECIAL VOICE. Continue to argue amongst your self and continue to blame one person for the downfall of this country. You should blame the INSURANCE LOBBY.THE CORPORATE LOBBY, THE SPECIAL INTEREST LOBBY and all other PAY TO PLAY GROUPS THAT HAS POISONED OUR AMERICAN DEMOCRACY. Had the insurance companies played by the rules and not tried to squeeze every nickle out of every American and deny coverage to many others ,ma be we would not need HEALTH CARE REFORM. Pr-existing condition condition,sorry can’t help you. Want to by HEALTH COVERAGE in another STATE, sorry can’t do that either. BLAME THEM.These are the entities that are robbing you blind YOU FOOL, not Obama he is only there for a minute everything else is there FOREVER. Who will you blame next for the next reform program. REFORM COMES FROM ABUSE. And AMERICANS WE HAVE BEEN ABUSED. wake up. We need term limits for congress. These people go in making SIX FIGURES AND LEAVE AS MILLIONAIRES. YOU EVER THOUGHT HOW THEY MAKE THERE MONEY? ITS MENTIONED IN THE ABOVE PARAGRAPH.I must leave you now. I feel my ranting is a lost cause. You will hear from me again ,PURPLEWARRIOR

    • brett


    • Dale on the left coast

      “Obama plane was rejected because he is BLACK?”

      Purp . . . you are a total clueless %*##%&* . . . . the O’bammy plan is rejected by the majority of Americans because it is just DUMB . . .
      What do we know about the O’bammy plan?
      It is the biggest govt takeover of the economy in the history of the USA . . .
      It is the biggest Tax increase in the history of the USA . . . 20 built-in taxes, coming soon . . .
      It will bankrupt the insurance industry and lead to a total govt takeover . . . then your health insurance will look more like the Post Office and Amtrak . . . good luck with that ! ! !

      • Purplewarrior

        The ” O’Bammy ” Plan, really ??? That’s pretty ignorant…Back to the real deal at hand … if you would like to educate yourself more on the subject, do that . check out the AP Article ” Fact Check : keeping your current health plan” And as with drug addicts you must be reduced to nothing before you realize that you are destroying yourself. I know deep down you are striving for the truth. Go to the AP article read for your self. You pay for those not insured everyday. Where do you think the $5.00 aspirin comes from when under hospital care? It comes from others not having health care insurance. You also pay for individuals who don’t carry vehicle insurance. After KATRINA the US GOVERNMENT bailed out thousands for lack of insurance, and that was on GEORGE BUSHES WATCH You also pay for millions of illegal aliens health care.Don’t worry i will get you through your ignorance. Continue to look for writings of———PURPLEWARRIOR

      • Steve L.

        If its so dumb how come they still use it in Mass.

  • Patriot

    Michael Moore is a $50 million liar & the ultimate POSTER CHILD of HYPOCRISY!…….. He lied and deceived in every film he made, just ask those IN the films after it was edited and shown. He must think people as so damn stupid to believe him on anything. The real hospitals in Cuba does not have any sheets for the few beds, hardly no Doctors, nurses or any personnel to even distribute aspirin, when they them. Michael is a liar, his production company DID OWN Haliburton stock along with Soros!

    • Dale on the left coast

      The lefty-loons love Rich, Fat, Dumb folks like Michael and fat Al of Gorebull Warming fame . . . well maybe they’re not dumb . . . . its the lefty-loons that are dumb . . . . lol

      • Purplewarrior

        Dale I think you need more work than I first thought. You are controlled by the Dark Side.Your personal attacks during logical discussions are alarming. One must wonder if you can be helped. Avast PURPLEWARRIOR is here to bring you onto the light. Look in the future for further writings of PURPLEWARRIOR.In those writings you will be brought in from the DARK SIDE.————-PWRPLEWARRIOR

      • Steve L.

        The same Al Gore who warned america if they didn’t put social security in a special account that congress Cannot touch it will be gone, such crazy liberal ideas

    • http://msn Pugsley1

      You better dheck that out in person,you are wrong

  • Edward J. Krigbaum

    Sorry folks, but you can’t have it both ways, which is what moderates want. You’re either lined up with the communists/socialists or you’re with those who want to live in the freedom that our founders gave us. Those of you who are Christians or religious should keep in mind the goal of the socialists: Utopian Society – man made Heaven-on-earth, if you will. While Christians believe only God can create Heaven or a perfect world. The two ideas cannot coexist. Which do you believe is possible? If you believe in God, then you’d better reject ALL socialist ideas. As I said, the two ideas cannot coexist.

    • Steve L.

      Only the far wrong calls it socialism

  • Ernie

    This commentary is in answer to “Seniors” , which follows this article:

    Forget about getting to age 75, this exact thing happened to me this morning at Danbury hospital here in CT. I was scheduled for a cardio-lite stress test. This is a tread mill stress test where during the process they inject nuclear dye into your blood stream and then put you in a CAT scan or something similar and take a picture of your heart. If all is good, the heart shows up red, if there are blocked arteries anywhere, that portion of the heart shows up pink. I have had three of these tests in the past twelve years due to blocked arteries discovered in 2000. They use the test to determine if I need a roto router or a bypass operation.

    So I arrive at the hospital at 8 am this morning and I am in the process of checking in at Cardiology and the lady says that my appointment has been canceled. She makes a call and speaks with someone and hands me the phone.

    It is a nurse in cardiology who says that my medical coverage denied the procedure. I said it was routine, part of my heart maintenance process and ordered by my PCP and with approval from my Cardiologist who is the head of Danbury Cardiology which is right where I was standing.

    She says, “Yes, but we were denied our request”. So I say, I have Medicare so what is my backup insurance doing denying anything? Then, the bombshell: she says it was the Medicare board that denied the procedure!

    At that point, I turn to everyone behind me, and it was a long line, and I say to them “well, you won’t have to wait too long today because my stress test procedure was just canceled by a Medicare Death Panel. I am only 67 so can you imagine what is going to happen when we really get old”.

    The entire waiting room and everyone there from patients to staff just went dead silent. So I turn to the front desk and tell them, ” I guess I will have to write a letter to the editor of the Danbury News Times and call my Senators and Congressman and let them know the Death Panels have already convened”. Then, I walked out.

    By the time I got home, the message machine was blinking. My PCP had already called and so did the hospital and guess what, Medicare decided to approve my stress test procedure and, if I could get back down to the hospital, they would fit me in right now for this 3 hour procedure.

    I told them I couldn’t make it, that I was going fishing because I didn’t know how many more fishing trips I could get in before I went into cardiac arrest, but not to worry about me costing the government any money because I am a 30% disabled Army veteran, due to Agent Orange poisoning which is what caused this heart problem to begin with. And I qualify to be buried for free in a plain pine wrapper in the cheap graves section at any National Cemetery. I certainly don’t want to cost our government any money so maybe we just won’t do this procedure anymore and we can use the money to redistribute it to all of the illegals to keep them alive so they can mow the lawns at the National Cemeterys.

    So this Death Panel crap has started. If we don’t vote this guy and his criminal cronies out of office this November, then we will all die younger than we should and as broke paupers as the country goes bankrupt.

    Feel free to distribute my note to anyone and make it a mission to not only make your vote count, but on behalf of all of us. Please make an effort to change the thinking of anyone remotely willingly to get intellectually engaged in this critical time in our country’s history.

    – SENIORS -


    I had one of the most troubling, most disturbing conversations ever with Dr. Suzanne Allen, head of emergency services at the Johnson City Medical Center in Tennessee . We were discussing the “future” and I asked her had she seen any affects of Obama Care in her work?

    “Oh, yes. We are seeing cutbacks throughout the services we provide. For example, we are now having to deal with patients who would normally receive dialysis and can no longer be accepted.

    In the past, there was always automatic approval under Medicare for anyone who needed dialysis — not anymore.” So, what will be their outcome? “They will die soon without dialysis,” she stated.

    What about other services? She indicated as of 2013 (after the election), no one over 75 will be given major medical procedures unless approved by locally administeredEthics Panels. These Panels will determine whether a patient receives medical treatment or not.

    While details on specific operating procedures and schedules, Dr. Allen points out that most life-threatening emergencies do not occur during normal hospital business hours, and, if there are emergencies that depend to be resolve within minutes or just few hours, the likelihood of getting these Panels approval in time to save a life are going to be very challenging and difficult, if notimpossible she said.

    This applies to major operations such as receiving stents, bypass surgery, kidney operations, or treating for an aneurysm that would be normally covered under Medicare today.

    In other words, if you needed a life-saving operation, Medicare will not provide coverage anymore after 2013 if you are 75 or over. When in 2013? “We haven’t been given a specific date — could be in January or July….but it’s after the election.”

    This is shocking to any of us who will be 75 this year. Her advice — get healthy and stay healthy. We do not know the specifics of the actual implementation of the full ObamaCare policies and procedures — “they haven’t filtered down to the local level yet.

    But we are already seeing severe cuts in what we provide to the elderly — we refused dialysis to an individual who was 78 just the other day….we refused to give stents to a gentleman who was in his late 80s. Every day, she said, we are seeing these cutbacks aimed at reducing care across the board for anyone who is over 75.

    We can only hope that ObamaCare will be overturned by the Supreme Court — otherwise, this is a death sentence to those who are over 75….perhaps you should pass this on to your friends who are thinking of voting for Obama this year.

    Regardless, if you have private health care coverage now (I have Aetna Medicare Part B) — it will no longer apply after 2013 if the EthicsPanels disapprove of a procedure that may save your life.

    Scary, scary, scary. Think about this? You? Your parents? Your loved ones?

    Didn’t know about it? Of course, not. As Nancy Pelosi said….”well, if you want to know what’s in the bill, you’ll have to read it…..” After it was passed.

    This is a graphic reminder of the need to stay healthy. Get your plot now at Forest Lawn….while they last. Is this a death sentence to those of us who will reach 75?…..Yes!

    • http://none Claire

      My husband was placed on dialysis–the doctor did the fistula, about an hour later my husband’s arm was blackish brown and the entire right side of his body was discolored. . They took him back into surgery and discovered they left a vein “open.” He had to have 4 blood transfusions. And the doctor was supposed to be the “best.” He was never the same after that episode, he had uncontrollable dry heaves after every dialysis treatment, I would call the dialysis center and they would say “Oh, we must have taken out too much fluid, give him some chicken broth and he will be okay.” Well, he was never okay, especially after they started giving hi heavy doses of iron the first week in January and he died after dialysis January 30th.
      He also had a permanent colostomy—three years ago he had severe abdominal pain, I called the ambulance and the paramedics repeatedly asked ” are you sure you’re not constipated?” My husband kept saying no. After 3 hours in emergency they had him drink a fluid so they could do an x-ray. The jerk that read the x-ray did NOT catch the perforated colon. He ended up with peritonitis and 25 hours later they operated on him, hence the permanent colostomy. As far as I am concerned the hospitals, the entire medical profession needs a good overhaul, so don’t tell me the health care in the U.S. is the best, because we sure as hell thought we had the “best.”

    • Nancy in Nebraska

      Ernie, thanks for sharing this! Everyone needs to know!!!

  • Jansue

    I seen interesting posts on here..they seem to point out things VERY TRUE! One side, the Dems who want to own you, with your own money..TAX and FEES..take in YOUR money, pay themselves FIRST and then dool it back to you..and it goes BROKE..I think that is stupid and unfair to the working class (slaves) as they would have them, just we go broke first. But they don’t stop.

    Republcan’s won’t change it’s a road traveled there’s a big plan for the world and we don’t really get to vote who we want..they, the ones to sets a post turtle and promote those who will not give them too much and dine them..all, all of them in washington.
    BUT, they have the tanks for war…a way to get some money and the dems are liking that income with our economy in shambles..but neither side cares about YOU.they care about money. The feed on it like war of the world

    Now, the Repubs…THEY are the ones who usherd in the Trade deal..yes, it passed in the Dems house with Clinton on the post. The REpublicans voted it in with a lot of Dems against it. The Trade deal didn’t do like they thought it would I guess..but they keep on keeping on with the hogging attitude, we just take, don’t want you to get ahead too far..but if you do get too big, we can thug you into submission..want to spend 10 years + in
    rock-throwing countries telling us it’s war..they are enjoying big builders effort and give them protection over there..Big wigs are building schools, commerce, military, and setting up Post Turtles. and the Reserve wants it too as they already have a grip, indebting every body and every place in the world..that’s pretty amazing, but it’s going to get to where we go up against some real GUNS and chinese are huge, strange, dictatorship..while we spread so thin.
    REally, tho’ is that going to pan out?

    It does make some sense that we worry that we will fail, go broke or lose a war.

    Is it either one side or the other? I don’t like either side!! I lean Republican but I don’t really don’t think they are real republicans in the White house…they changed really fast getting greedy and the Dems are lame.
    I have went Libertarian/Republican. I still want to be free…I think most people, all over the world want to be able to live in peace and be free not beholden to Managed trade/commerce..they just call it free trade..That is what they do and it’s not about YOU.
    I don’t want to be told I can not know what I am eating, Factory farms doing all sorts of things to the food supply and tell me I must pay all the fees and taxes, same as the giants pay? NO way to live. I don’t like, too, how farms are being thugged and paid off for growing GMO’s.
    I don’t want to give 6 percent of what I make to washington (fedreserve)… I need that money to pay for food. I am middle class and not doing as well as I did before the crisis..UH! Always CRISIS up there!!!

  • http://none Claire

    Moore?? Palin?? As far as I am concerned, neither one has any credibility.

  • Deerinwater

    Quote; “In one corner there’s Palin, who says, “There is no such thing as a free lunch.” She warned voters on Fox News”

    And we are upset because the government is pushing us around and demanding that everyone be responsible for their health care or accepted being taxed for failure to do so.

    So what is it that I am missing? ~ so where is the free lunch when everyone is being required to accept personal irresponsible? It sounds like Palin is looking for that free lunch.

    Quote;” Perhaps future generations of Americans will prize fairness over work ethic and view the Constitution as an outdated document in a changing world. Or maybe those who claim to be freedom fighters will get out from behind their desks, jump onto a steel horse and proclaim, “The socialists are coming.”

    Fairness over work ethics? Now what kind of choice is that? Does that mean that we/I should prefer work ethics over fairness? Oh Boy! This is getting better by the minute! I think you just found a nugget of truth! ~ Screw fairness! Corporate America wants “Work Ethics”

    Well, Romney had not been exactly a beacon for “work ethics”, employing a small staff of bookkeepers and attorneys to displace whole communities, putting people out of work by the hundred and cheating people out of their retirement pension funds is not exactly my idea of sound work ethics.

    Would you like to know some of their names and their children?

    It’s constitutional, it’s been ruled on. Would you like to change to Constitution to suite you better?

    If you work at a desk to make a living, ~ you are probably wise to stay there when it starts getting ~ bumpy. Trains a very hard and unforgiving, slow to start and slow to stop.

    and ~ It’s the “affordable healthcare act” ~ not obamacare not romneycare.

  • http://msn Pugsley1

    we need to regulate health care through the government,,non regulated health does not work ,but the health care insurence companies are making record money with billions in bonuses, it does not work for anyone unless you are a millionare ,and thats the top 5%,the other 95% will make pharmacutical ,insuence,hospital,doctors very rich!!

  • Dave67

    (CNN) — In the opening scene of the new Aaron Sorkin show, “The Newsroom,” a news anchor goes on a tirade when asked why “America is the greatest country in the world.”

    “It’s not the greatest country in the world,” he fumes. “We’re seventh in literacy, 27th in math, 22nd in science, 49th in life expectancy, 178th in infant mortality, third in median household income, No. 4 in labor force, and No. 4 in exports. … So when you ask what makes us the greatest country in the world, I don’t know what the f*** you’re talking about.”

    It’s another slab of “Network”-esque bravado from Sorkin — the creator of “The West Wing” — but the point is well taken, even if his statistics could be a bit off. By a number of objective measures, America is not No. 1.

    Good luck in saying that aloud, however. Forget Social Security. The third rail of American politics is acknowledging we may not be the greatest country in the world.

    “If you can think of a politician who can say consistently ‘We’re not No. 1; we’re not No. 1,’ then I’d be very surprised,” says Melvyn Levitsky, a retired U.S. Foreign Service officer and former ambassador to Brazil.

    It’s not like acknowledging flaws is the same as acknowledging failure. The business sector seldom rests on its laurels. Successful companies assume there’s room for improvement, and they’ll put themselves through ISO 9000, Six Sigma, benchmarking, best practices and any number of other assessment programs to get there. (Some sectors of government — which is often unfavorably compared to business by critics — do that, too, but it doesn’t grab anyone’s attention unless its Vice President Al Gore illustrating his ’90s “Reinventing Government” initiative by smashing an ashtray on the David Letterman show.)

    If businesses don’t evolve, they end up like Atari, Pan Am and Woolworth’s, onetime industry leaders that crashed against the rocks of strategy, innovation and competition. So the successful ones aren’t shy about borrowing good ideas from others.

    Then why is it so hard for the United States to admit its shortcomings and do the same?

    Craig Wheeland, a political scientist at Villanova, believes it has something to do with America’s innate wariness of government.

    “We have a peculiar set of approaches to how government should act in our economy and in our society,” he says. “That creates a barrier to looking at best practices and borrowing ideas. The business world doesn’t think like that. They look at ideas that seem to solve problems and test them out, and if they don’t work, they change. They’re more pragmatic.”

    Former Massachusetts governor and Democratic presidential candidate Michael Dukakis is blunter. He describes the problem in one word: Hubris.

    “Some interest in what’s happening elsewhere and how other people are doing this would benefit us enormously,” he says. “I think a little less hubris and a little more focus … would do us a lot of good.”

    But Gerry Keim, a management professor at Arizona State University, isn’t quite so harsh.

    “We’re not exceptional in all categories, [but] we’re clearly exceptional in some categories, and I think we should be proud of that,” he says, mentioning America’s entrepreneurial spirit as an example.

    However, he adds, “There are other areas [in which] one could learn a lot from other countries.”

    In that vein, here are a few lessons the U.S. may draw from leaders in the rest of the world.

    Health care: What the doctor ordered

    It took almost two years, hundreds if not thousands of meetings and reams of pages to produce the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act, popularly known as Obamacare. After all that, almost nobody was happy with it; it was criticized as going too far, not going far enough, too complex and too much. The Supreme Court upheld the law on Thursday, but it still faces headwinds from critics and a skeptical public.

    Japan’s health care system is known for its relatively low costs and commitment to primary care.

    Nevertheless, virtually everybody agrees that the United States has a health care problem. Almost 50 million Americans are without insurance, creating a burden on hospital emergency rooms and forcing people who need services into deep debt. Too few take advantage of primary care.

    And it’s costing a fortune: In 2011, the United States spent 18% of its gross domestic product on health, much more than its allies.

    Contrast those figures with Japan. The Asian country of 125 million spent just 8.5% of its GDP on healthcare in 2009, among the best figures in the developed world. Yet, despite lower costs, it’s No. 3 on the list of life expectancies (behind tiny Monaco and Macau) and 220th (out of 221) in infant mortality, according to the CIA Factbook. The United States ranks 50th in life expectancy and 173rd in infant mortality.

    What’s so special about Japan?

    Sabine Fruhstuck, a professor of modern Japan at the University of California-Santa Barbara, attributes some of the system’s success to Japanese ideals.

    “The social contract is very different,” she says. “There’s an expectation and a commitment by the state to the welfare of the people.”

    In the United States, she observes, there’s an emphasis on personal choice; in Japan, there’s a more sympathetic relationship between the individual and the state.

    Like the U.S. system, the Japanese arrangement is a combination of public and private. Insurance is mandatory, and citizens who can’t afford the premiums are assisted by the government. The majority of hospitals are private, as are medical practices. Patients can pick their doctors and hospitals. Patients are not shy about using the system; a 2009 Washington Post article reported that Japanese citizens visit a doctor 14 times a year.

    Nor are doctors shy about seeing patients, since they receive a payment for each visit. That’s one of the system’s flaws, says political science professor T.J. Pempel, a former director of UC-Berkeley’s Institute for Asian Studies.

    “Doctors have every incentive to move people through quickly,” he says. “So you can get the feeling you’re part of an assembly line.”

    The Japanese system doesn’t pay for childbirth, nor does it cover cosmetic surgery. The system also has suffered from issues with Japan’s aging population. The elderly consume more medical care than the young, and Japan’s society hasn’t added enough young workers to support retirees. Like other industrialized countries, it’s struggling to keep costs under control.

    However, the government is particularly committed to care throughout life, whether it’s prenatal care or employee health, Pempel says. Pregnant women are given a wealth of information; many corporations, because they have a stake in the system, have clinics on site.

    “There’s a lot of [primary care], and it’s covered. There’s strong encouragement to go into a clinic at the first sign of problems,” he says.

    What’s important to you?
    The OECD has an interactive chart, the Better Life Index, on its website that allows visitors to compare countries across a variety of topics. How do countries perform on areas you care about? Visit the site and find out.

    Indeed, the U.S. individualist tradition in health care generally runs counter to the rest of the industrialized world. Free-marketers like to point to the Swiss system, in which individuals buy their own insurance. But it, too, has a mandate. Many countries have cost controls in place, some more extreme than others. And the culture of the citizenry — whether it’s regarding diet, abortion, gun control, child and elder care traditions or personal responsibility — can’t help but play a role.

    In the case of health care, Fruhstuck says, there’s something to be said for group accountability.

    “In Japan, there’s attention to harmony, and the sense that everybody is responsible for everybody,” she says. “The way you are has an impact on everybody around you, so you think about your behavior.”

    Education: Teach to the best

    Today, Finland is regularly ranked as having one of the best-performing education systems in the world. The country’s literacy rate is tops, its math proficiency second, according to the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development, an international trade group. Students from elementary through high school are among the world’s best in test scores.

    A generation ago, that wasn’t the case. In the 1970s, Finland’s schools were among the worst in the developed world.

    What changed?

    The problem was attacked on all sides, says Pasi Sahlberg, a former official in Finland’s education ministry.

    The country invested heavily in teacher education, requiring master’s degree-based, five-year qualifications instead of three-year bachelor’s degrees. Child poverty was addressed with meals, health care, dental care and counseling — all free of charge for children. Finally, the system pursued what Sahlberg calls “intelligent accountability” that combines standardized testing with teacher assessment and school self-inspection — with an emphasis on the teachers, not the tests.

    Where did they get their ideas? Actually, they got a lot of them from the United States.

    Teaching is highly respected in Finland, and requires several years of training and ongoing education.

    “Within your 15,000 districts and 100,000 schools you have probably all the educational innovation that anybody needs to build good schools or well-performing districts,” he says. “The Finnish education system owes a lot to these American ideas.”

    And yet Americans are forever lamenting the state of their schools. As Diane Ravitch, education historian and former assistant secretary of education to President George H.W. Bush, points out, we’ve been fretting about the American system and looking enviously over our shoulders for decades, whether it’s to Germany, England, the former Soviet Union, Japan or China.

    “We have this narrative that we’re failing, failing, failing. The rest of the world would like to be like us, and we’re saying, ‘What’s wrong with us? We’re so terrible.’ It must be some kind of American inferiority complex,” she says.

    Yes, of course there are schools with problems. Some districts have been damaged by cheating scandals, others suffer from poor facilities. The battle to improve test scores, led by federal programs such as No Child Left Behind and Race to the Top, has provoked criticism (including Ravitch’s). Some officials want to give more money to charter schools at the expense of the public system or offer “school choice” through vouchers.

    Finland, which is small, homogenous and has less income inequality between rich and poor, managed to completely remake its structure. Is that possible in the polyglot, poverty-pocked United States?

    It’s already happening. West Virginia has instituted some of Finland’s ideas — some of which, of course, originated in the United States. Sahlberg believes they can work throughout the country, but they have to start with respect and training for the teacher.

    “I think there is far too much loose rhetoric criticizing public school systems and blaming teachers in the U.S. that has no ground,” he says. Finland has such respect for teachers that the job is now seen as being “on par with other academic positions, such as lawyers and doctors,” he says. But it’s because the country invested in the profession and continues to do so.

    Ravitch adds that society has to join in. “There’s a youth culture that’s very disobedient, and the laws are such that it’s very hard to maintain any kind of standard of discipline, and everybody blames the teachers,” she says. “But it’s kind of a vicious circle, because you have a lot of parents who are not particularly responsible either. The most common complaint at schools is if there’s a parent night, there are many schools where nobody shows up.”

    Business: Making the sale

    Perhaps surprisingly for a country that prides itself on its ability to do business, the United States does not lead the world in several indices of commerce. The International Finance Corporation and the World Bank ranked 183 countries in 11 areas; the United States didn’t finish first in any of them, ending up fourth behind Singapore, Hong Kong and New Zealand in ease of doing business, 20th in trade across borders, and a dismal 72nd in paying taxes.

    New Zealand, in fact, ranks highly in several areas. It’s No. 1 in the world for starting a business, protecting investors and incorruptibility. The World Bank list placed it No. 3 overall. On last year’s Forbes list of best countries for business, it was No. 2, behind Canada. The United States was 10th.

    Richard Laverty with the New Zealand Trade and Enterprise office attributes the country’s status to its aggressiveness in addressing business needs, though not at the expense of what makes the country special.

    Oscar-winning director Peter Jackson made his “Lord of the Rings” movies in his native New Zealand.

    “We’re a small country. We need all the help we can get,” he says. But, he adds more seriously, New Zealand has a “regulatory regime that’s simple and transparent and applies across the country.”

    There’s some need for investment. The country’s economy is highly reliant on natural resources and not exactly an entrepreneurial center, especially compared to another small country like Israel, which is known for its trailblazing high-tech and pharmaceutical industries.

    In recent years, New Zealand has become a filmmaking hotbed and has a growing high-tech sector, thanks to one of its leading citizens, “Lord of the Rings” director Peter Jackson. Director James Cameron bought a place there and plans to get going on “Avatar’s” sequels; investor Peter Thiel, a big supporter of entrepreneurship, established a venture capital fund.

    If New Zealand’s small scale makes it challenging for the United States to emulate — the country has more sheep than humans and, says Laverty, operates by “two degrees of separation” instead of six — there’s another country that may be more comparable, despite stark differences: Germany.

    Not only has it been the world’s leading exporter for several years in the past decade, it does so with a heavily unionized, relatively expensive labor force that gets six weeks of vacation a year and works a slightly shorter week than U.S. workers.

    The Germans succeed by investing in their people from an early age, says Arizona State’s Gerry Keim. A student from a German business school will likely speak three languages and have spent two semesters at two different partner schools outside of Germany.

    “When they graduate, they’ll be your competitor,” he tells his students. “In terms of doing business globally, who do you think will have the advantage?”

    His students, many of whom have never traveled outside the United States, are shocked, he says.

    “They’ve never heard anyone raise these questions before,” he says.

    Germany can compete, despite its more generous benefits, because it has leaders who are knowledgeable about global markets. “They go to these other places and they’re sponges,” he says.

    Americans, on the other hand, focus on what’s different about other countries and why they’re not more like the United States, Keim says. That provincial attitude frustrates him to no end.

    “When you live in a country where if you can speak a foreign language it costs you points in an election poll, I wonder about the whole idea of American exceptionalism,” he says.

    The individual and the community

    Can these success stories work for the United States? Other countries are more homogenous and have traditions of top-down government and higher taxes. The American Experiment arose out of something messier.

    Throughout its history, the United States has balanced uneasily between honoring the group and venerating the individual. Thanks to the ongoing economic crisis, the issue has once again come to the fore. Why should we fund mass transit, some people ask, when 95% of American households own a car? Why should we invest in public schools when 1 out of every 10 students goes to a private institution?

    Back and forth the debate goes.

    If we wanted to follow the path of other countries, it wouldn’t just take effort and money. It might take something even harder to put a price on, a soul-searching sense of what America is, which is at the very heart of the debate over “American exceptionalism.”

    Given the country’s polarization, it’s not an issue that will be settled easily, says Villanova’s Wheeland.

    “I see ideology as a driving force in national politics now,” he says. “It seems the way to mobilize your core constituency in order to get them out in primaries and ultimately turn out in a general election. In American politics now, you have legislative institutions that are really drawn or created in a way to filter out people of more pragmatic, more centrist, more moderate, more problem-solving approaches, and you get the most ideologically oriented people elected today.”

    However, he observes, America is still creative, still willing to take risks. Levitsky, the former ambassador, notes that the reach of American culture is unparalleled.

    Germany was the world’s leading exporter for several years in the 2000s — ahead of both the U.S. and China.

    Dukakis says “we have a degree of freedom other countries envy.” They’re strengths that foreign observers — even if their countries are ahead of the United States in one area or another — still look at with respect.

    “One of the things Kiwis really admire is Americans’ entrepreneurial attitude,” says New Zealand’s Laverty. “I think that there’s a greater appetite for risk and a greater acceptance of failure in the U.S. There’s a cultural, go-at-it, you-can-do-it nature that we admire.”

    Wheeland agrees — but hopes we’re able to do more.

    “Our political culture is one that almost celebrates the individual’s ability to start over, and we take great pride in that,” he says. “I think we just lose sight sometimes of the common good — what helps us all as a community do better.”

    Something for the conservative loons to discount.

    • Average Joe

      Congratulations! You’ve graduted to copy and paste. Your future looks brighter! Now, if you can just find some reliable sources, you’ll have it made.(hint,: if your sources are from the MSM…they are not reliable sources).

      Best Wishes,

      • Dave67

        Sorry AJ,

        I keep forgetting if it is not a cut and paste from one of your approved sites, its just not worth reading.

        Someone with your superior intellect couldn’t possibly read the article and maybe learn something about our country, our attitudes and maybe better ourselves and our country…


        Here… I will speak on your warped level… OBAMA IS A SOCIALIST! US CONSTITUTION RIP!!! OUR HC SYSTEM IS GREAT!!!

        There, is that a language you can understand?

      • Average Joe


        You write:
        “I keep forgetting if it is not a cut and paste from one of your approved sites, its just not worth reading. ”

        I don’t have any “approved sites” since when I read something, I tend to cross reference on many sites to verify that what I am reading is true…or false. If you are using the MSM however, you ae not getting “News”, you are getting opinion…and nothing more. (hint: soundbites…are not news, they are short bursts of info/opinion designed to illicit an emotion from the audience). If you believe otherwise, you are simply deluding yourself.

        You write:
        “Someone with your superior intellect couldn’t possibly read the article and maybe learn something about our country, our attitudes and maybe better ourselves and our country…”

        Actually you don’t need to copy and paste such long winded articles here…just your summary, followed by a link to the site…we will read it if we choose and not read it if we choose not to do so. But I’m still proud of you for learning how to C and P. Do you always assume that conservatives don’t read liberal blogs and “news (?)” as well? While I rarely agree with liberal views, there are instances when I do agree….but I don’t follow any ideals blindly…unlike some folks ( wink, wink).

        You write:
        “Here… I will speak on your warped level… OBAMA IS A SOCIALIST! US CONSTITUTION RIP!!! OUR HC SYSTEM IS GREAT!!!”

        You may want to go back and re-read all of my posts, unlike your posts, mine are quite civil and polite. Not once have I said what my opinion about Obama or the HC system happen to be. However, since you’ve brought it up:

        I believe that Obama is an Anti-Colonial by the very nature of his upbringing and list of mentors ( gee, I hope that doesn’t throw a wrench in your thought processes)
        I believe that the HC system needs to be fixed…but not with this piece of garbage that has been passed…rip it up….start over..with imput from the people…after all, they will be funding it.

        Best wishes,

    • Nancy in Nebraska

      I just skimmed it over. But I will say, the reason everyone has a health problem is because our water is full of toxic chemicals including the neuro toxin, fluoride. Our food is full of chemicals, pesticides, herbicides, even the main chemical found in agent orange. Now we unknowingly eat genetically modified foods which many doctors including Dr. Oz, say are not safe to eat. We’re pumped full of vaccines which contain a witches brew, including human fetal tissue, dog fetal tissue and pig fetal tissue. Not to mention the vaccines that make women miscarry or make people sterile. So, yeah everyone has a health problem. guess who we got it from? The government! And you want to trust them with your healthcare?!? GOOD LUCK!!!

      • brett

        umm, if you want to blame gov’t, then yes, for lack of proper oversight. otherwise all of that to which you spoke of is the responsibility of private corporations who just so happen to run our gov’t thanks to you.

  • ullungdo

    “this obvious infringement on our economic and personal freedom.””. Right, Sarah. Of course, you are referring to our right to die in the street.

    • Average Joe

      Congratulations! You’ve graduted to copy and paste. Your future looks brighter! Now, if you can just find some reliable sources, you’ll have it made.(hint,: if your sorces are from the MSM…they are not reliable sources).

      Best Wishes,

    • Average Joe

      ullungdo ,
      sorry, I hit the wrong reply button…my appologies.

      Best Wishes,

      • brett

        so, which was it? because ullungdo did not cite anything mush less msm. if it was meant for dave67, nit picking is soo weak it’s sad. and i loved your quote from adams, but since you defend the wealthy it would seem that you missed his point entirely.

      • Dave67


        AJ is old and bitter and thinks conservatives and himself have the market cornered on what is fact, constitutional and what is right and wrong. Typical conservative blowhard. Not interested in making the country better, just his agenda.

      • Average Joe


        While I may not agree with what ullungdo posted, my post was in reply to Dave67…
        As such, the proper thing to do is correct my mispost to ullungdo as a matter of etiquette.
        Best Wishes,

      • brett

        aj, wow, really? mr. etiquette strikes again! do you not bother to read, because you seem to ignore any meat and continue to nit pick. as far as territorial wizzings go, you lose. this is just s@g for me, wish i hadn’t checked that email box. do look up poetic license. god speed and BEST WISHES,

  • ullungdo

    I am a US citizen, but in 1975 I found myself living in Canada when I started to date a young lady who had just had a baby boy. When the boy was about 6 months old, it was obvious something was wrong; he did not seem to be developing mentally. So my friend took her son in to the Canadian National Health & they ordered a blood test on the boy, his mom & his dad. The child had Tay Sachs disease, the worst thing anyone can suffer. The state immediately took the child and promised to take care of him for the rest of his life. His parents could visit at any time, take him out for a few days if they liked, even stay in a room next to his at any time and all at no cost.

    Here we are in the US almost 40 years after this episode, and we still do not have the level of care that every Canadian took for granted back then.

    • http://yahoo Maynard Runkle

      Thank you for that moving example of how a civilized society deals with illness. I had a friend who took a trip to England. He stepped out in front of a bus. He showed me the x-rays. A skull fracture went from his forehead clear to the back of his head. He received medical attention for the weeks necessary to get him well. His bill $0.00. If that happened to one of us here, without insurance which he did not have, we would be paying for the rest of our lives.
      How can they afford it? Everyone bands together to share the costs. Plus, they did not bankrupt themselves with trumped up unnecessary wars based on traitorous false flag operations like 9/11 and the anthrax scare. Although, since then, they did have their London train bombing which was also clearly an inside job. Look it up on the internet and you’ll see the details. So, now they’re also on the road paved by lies, deception, and selfishness to benefit the privileged few while the rest of society has to pay for it.

  • Oldbutnotadumbbutt2012

    Moore Has a right to speak,even though Every time he does he proves to me,what a Dumb A#s he really is!!!!!

    • http://yahoo Maynard Runkle

      Let’s use scare labels: socialists, liberals, welfare state. Everybody has got to be afraid someone else is getting something for nothing. Surprizing as it may seem, we do live together in an interdependent society. If my neighbor is suffering, it will effect me. If millions are without proper preventive medical care, taking care of wellness and treating illness when it is in its incipient stages, it will save money for society (That means for you and me and everyone else).
      The preamble to our Constitution says “We the people.” It does not say me against everyone else. It says our government is constituted so that we can promote the general well-being. Sounds mighty “Socialist” doesn’t it?
      It’s nice to have freedom and independence but neither are without limits, even for the richest billionaire on the planet.
      The financial wizards who were given free rein under the Bush II administration proved that “the free market” being a magical elixir for the economy was WRONG! The only reason we did not totally collapse was because some people from both sides of the aisle realized people need food, houses, cars, education, health care, infrastructure, clean renewable energy sources, support for small businesses, and so on. They did not say, well “the rich get richer” so let’s just give up on everyone else.

  • http://Yahoo Maynard

    Nancy in Nebraska: How is it that you call this unconstitutional when the SCOTUS disagreed? Where is your robe? Put it on and go sit on the bench.
    All you “freedom” lovers out there. How much freedom would you have if you could not afford medical care because your insurance company decided to drop YOU OR A FAMILY MEMBER? You would have the freedom to go bankrupt and/or lose your house.You might also have the freedom to see a love one die prematurely and the expense of a funeral. The doctors and the hospital wouldn’t get paid and their costs would continue to skyrocket. Many other countries have solved this problem. It is not rocket science. The more members in an insurance plan, the less expensive the policy.

    • brett

      wasting your time.

  • brett

    seems nurse ratched called lights out. you guys like your quotes: ” why do children want to grow up? because they experience their lives as constrained by immaturity and perceive adulthood as a condition of greater freedom and opportunity. but what is there today, in america, that very poor and very rich adolescents want to do but cannot do? not much: they can ” do ” drugs, ” have ” sex, ” make ” babies, and ” get ” money ( from their parents, crime, or the State ). for such adolescents, adulthood becomes synonymous with responsibility rather than liberty. is it any surprise that they remain adolescents? ” thoman szasz.

    • jopa

      Brett: One of the key issues within the ACA is that it will take a lot of these working deadbeats that are not willing to buy there own health care insurance off of the freeloader wagon and make them pay there fair share.Ever since the insurance companies went to Wall Street it was never about the patient anymore,just the bottom line.WallStreet and the insurance companies have already spent $250,000,000.00 in trying to make the ACA look bad, in reality it is good for Americans who may worry about going bankrupt with medical losses or anyone that has a family member that may need help with long term medical issues.It will also reduce the costs for those that are responsible for their own well being and everyone wins in the end.Even Wall Street and the insurance companies but not as extreme as today.

      • brett

        ya know you’re preaching to the choir here right? anyway this site is a waste of space. gotta tell ya bob, it’s a darn shame the best you can offer is drones from the old conservative ( republican ) guard.

  • Sanders

    Something else to consider with regards to Obamacare is the impact on the elderly.

  • jopa

    Sanders:Just checked out your totally bogus link.It is sponsored by the Financial services industry, Healthcare, and big Pharma to name a few.When I saw the Fonz as one of their icons I thought wow this has to be true.”NOT”First impression when I saw the site, very amateurish.

  • Joe Smith

    Why is everyone equating mandatory health insurance to mandatory car insurance? Driving on our roads is a privilege, not a right. You can choose not to drive a car if you don’t want to pay the taxes involved, or the mandated insurance. I suppose socialized medicine will give you the option of dying if you don’t pay the tax. Oh wait, that’s part of the program already! I guess jail is your only option.

    • Carolyn

      could not have said it better, I buried a son because he did not have health ins. n the doctors r not going 2 help u without!!! there r , 3 questions asked by doctors, n hospitals, #1 do u have Health Ins. #2 what kind of Health Ins.{ Blue cross, medicare, medicaid,etc. } # 3 r u an hourly employee or salary??? what the doctor does for u depends on the answer 2 all 3 questions, hell, he is even in charge of what kind of test u can b scheduled 4!!!nothing is worse than burying your own child because of this!!! I even had a girl who works in a doctors office tell me that the doctor she works for is going 2 start turning away medicare patients, because he is going broke, funny thing we r the same people who made this bastard rich, when we had Blue Cross & Blue Shield, n they scheduled every test in the book, whether u needed them or not, what a joke our medical system has turned into!! I myself give a great big thank you 2 President Barrack Obama, for caring about us..Look back n check out your history, it was Reagan,papa bush, n bush jr. who destroyed our Great Country!!! The republicans have nothing else to hitch their wagon to, so they r trying to make a sham out of this, what r they crying because the big ins. co. will no longer pad their pockets, along with the drug co., they complain about illegal drugs, but kill people with prescription drugs, they passed without a proper testing period!!

  • Joel Smith

    Sorry to tell you folks, but Obamacare IS NOT socialism. It was the free market solution created by the Heritage Foundation and touted as the alternative to the Clinton Health Care plan by the Republican party.

    The Heritage Foundaiton even claims to have come up with this plan prior to the Clintons being in office. The plan was introduced in a 1989 book, “A National Health System for America” by Stuart Butler and Edmund Haislmaier.

    This is not a government take over of the health care industry.. It is simply a regulation of the free market system already in place. It is amazing how dillusional the right has become. They got their plan passed. A complete victory for them. And yet because it was a Democrat that got it passed, they’ve gone nuts, labeling it socialism and government take over, when in fact it was their plan to prevent socialized medicine and government takeover.

  • Tom

    Mr. “Multi-millionaire” Moore, “I’m telling you friends, this is a huge locomotive. And as the American public experiences the parts of the bill that are really great, they’re not going to want to turn that train around.”

    What is this healthbill going to cost him? NADA!

    There may be some ‘great parts” to this 1200 page bill that was passed through backdoor legislation, but it’s the ‘not so great’ parts of the legislation that are a concern to us average Americans who are living week to week. The majority of Americans were opposed to this law from the start… that would be a majority of “We the People”, the rulers of this land.

    This bill should be put up for repeal by a “Referendum” vote to be decided by “We the People”, along with term limits, pay raises for government employees, Congressional retirement entitlements, and a bunch of other perks that we were never asked about.

    This is OUR country, it doesn’t belong to the Executive, Legislative, or Judicial branches our elected government. They all work for “We the People”, but of late, it appears that the fruits of OUR labor are ending upo in their pockets.

    The time has come to clean house in Washington DC.

    • Thinking About

      Since there is a 51% approval rating for ACA having a referendum would be a good idea and really would be We the people. I think I will start promoting that idea.

  • http://Wildey The Christian American

    It’s interesting Moore completely discount the human factor and by that I mean the people working health field. Are doctors going to be good as they were when their income is set by the government? Will people be drawn to the health business? Will they look at us as assets, you’ve got good insurance coverage so you go the front of the line. Or liabilites, he can’t pay his own bill so why should I care about him? In Nazi Germany doctors began to realize they worked for the state, not their patients and you know where that psyche went to.

    The only thing that motivates people is personal profit: Period. The big draw to America was personal profit could be had by all, if he put effort into it. Now? What’s your social security number and insurance coverage or credit rating? By the way. My social security cardbares the legend FOR SOCIAL SECURITY PURPOSES NOT FOR IDENTIFICATION. That’s for another story. No, Micheal Moore is either a mentally diluted fool or a would be dictator. He might say he speaks for the people but only to the extent they did as he said. As far as I’m concerned Sarah Palin is probably nice person but she’s way out of her league. McCain picked her because she’s a female and a gun owner. He thought she would win the election for HIM. She would of been a VP that might have been seen but hever heard. I read intelligent comments here that put the DC residents and celebrities to shame.

    • Thinking About

      Does doctors do a better job when their salary is set by insurance companies who executives are sucking off millions a year or should this money go to medical professionals?

  • william

    Well if moore is or has any power, then we are sunk. He can’t even give any of his money to help the folks that are displaced after a disaster. PIG!

  • Jeff

    While we are arguing about all this, the government will have a much better health plan. I bet you any money that not one of the politicians in congress will be part of this new plan. We should be pushing to have politician perks revoked and laws change to keep these guys and gals from having better plans than nongovernment Americans. I am getting really tired of government spinsters putting stuff out there pitting people against each other while politicians sit back and rake in different and better plans than what they are suggesting to Americans. Politicians only have to serve one term and they have a pension for life! They do not have to put into Social Security – they have their own system. Their healthcare plan is much better than ours. Instead of arguing what is the best for America push to have all politicians follow what they are pushing on us.

    • Thinking About

      I bet their answer would not be “Hell NO” either. To have all member of Congress to follow the same rules would be a good start. Too many are bought and paid for.

  • BRB

    Hopefully, there are enough sane,hardworing,GOD fearing, legal citizens in this great country who will take action in November,2013 and elect someone to represent the true majority with integrity.





  • Deb Donnison

    I AM Sorry, Kinetic1 I miss read your email. My computer is giving me a fit.

  • http://None Beau

    Sean Murry You are right, He is a POS and an ugly one too.

  • John

    This “healthcare” bill has nothing to do with healthcare, nothing to do with politics and, nothing to do with the our welfare. It has as its only goal more power for those elites who think they know whats best for us because of our ignorant selves. When we finally realize whats going on and rise up agresively, then and only then will we begin to reestablish our place in the world as a free nation of individuals.

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