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Our Sp(L)ying Frenemies

August 3, 2012 by  

Our Sp(L)ying Frenemies
UPI
Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, left, and U.S. Defense Secretary Leon Panetta shake hands during a meeting at the Prime Minister's office in Jerusalem.

There is no “space” between the United States and Israel. Politicians from both countries tell us this as regularly as they change their socks.

President Barack Obama stated on Dec. 16: “America’s commitment and my commitment to Israel and Israel’s security is unshakeable.” And then-President George W. Bush stated before the Knesset on the 60th anniversary of the founding of the State of Israel on May 15, 2008: “The alliance between our governments is unbreakable, yet the source of our friendship runs deeper than any treaty.”

Democrat or Republican doesn’t matter in the United States: Politicians run to Israel’s side like dogs to fresh meat. With the campaign season in full bore, neither Obama nor Mitt Romney can do enough groveling.

Whatever Israel asks for, it gets; and it seems to never have enough. Israel is the largest cumulative recipient of U.S. foreign assistance since World War II. To date, the United States has provided Israel with $115 billion in assistance: mostly in the form of military assistance, but significant economic assistance as well.

In 2007, the Bush Administration agreed to a 10-year, $30 billion military aid package with Israel. Now, Israel is asking additional defense appropriations. Obama’s fiscal year 2013 budget includes $3.1 billion in foreign military financing for Israel and $15 million for refugee settlement. There’s another $99.8 million in the Defense Department’s budget for co-development of a missile defense for Israel. U.S. neocons are constantly harping for war on Israel’s neighbors on Israel’s behalf.

Israel, according to rhetoric coming from its government, seems determined to attack Iran. The United States seems determined to either attack Iran on Israel’s behalf, or provide the necessary assistance for Israel to do it. It’s difficult to tell which is the dog and which is the tail in this relationship.

The Associated Press reported on July 29 that the CIA’s Tel Aviv station chief had discovered “sensitive equipment he used (at home) to communicate with Langley, Va., headquarters had been compromised.” It had also happened to the previous station chief. Another CIA official in Israel came home to find the food in his refrigerator had been rearranged. The U.S. government believes Israel’s security services were responsible.

Before 9/11, the FBI uncovered a massive U.S.-based Israeli spy network. The network consisted of 100 agents posing as students or with ties to Israeli high-tech companies. They were sent to track al-Qaida terrorists on American territory without informing U.S. authorities and to spy on U.S. government officials. Fox News’ Carl Cameron reported that 60 Israelis nabbed were part of a long-running effort to spy in the United States. The network scrubbed the story from its website a day and a half later, but the story can be read here.

In 2005, the FBI’s “Foreign Economic Collection and Industrial Espionage” report stated: “Israel has an active program to gather proprietary information within the United States. These collection activities are primarily directed at obtaining information on military systems and advanced computing applications that can be used in Israel’s sizable armaments industry.”

In 2011, former CIA counterintelligence specialist/military intelligence officer Philip Giraldi accused Israel of stealing everything it gets its hands on. It includes military and industrial secrets. In 2010, he wrote that Mossad agents regularly pose as U.S. intelligence agents and the U.S. Justice Department turns its head. FBI whistleblower John Cole claims Justice Department officials cite political pressure in dropping dozens of Israeli espionage cases.

The CIA considers Israel its No. 1 counterintelligence threat in the agency’s Near East Division. The CIA ranks world intelligence agencies on their willingness to help America’s war on terror. Israel once fell behind Libya in that regard.

Israeli spokesman Mark Regev says Israel doesn’t spy on the United States. He lies. “Jeopardy” answer: Who are Ban-ami Kadish, Stewart Nozette and Jonathan Pollard?

Most Americans are convinced there is some Biblical duty to support Israel at all costs. This is a false narrative. America’s intractable support for Israel is driving us toward a war with Russia and China over Syria and Iran. Would a friend do these things?

Bob Livingston

is an ultra-conservative American and author of The Bob Livingston Letter™, founded in 1969. Bob has devoted much of his life to research and the quest for truth on a variety of subjects. Bob specializes in health issues such as nutritional supplements and alternatives to drugs, as well as issues of privacy (both personal and financial), asset protection and the preservation of freedom.

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  • MAP

    An interesting article that fits in well with today’s discussion:
    http://www.iamthewitness.com/DarylBradfordSmith_Rothschild.htm

    • Nadzieja Batki

      Bob L., the answer to your last sentence is Yes they should.

      • MAP

        NB, are you saying we should be pushed into a possible world war with Russia, China, and Iran? If so, please explain.

    • independant thinker

      I believe we must support Israel. However, that support must be given with the understanding Israel is out for Israel not anyone else (the same is true for most if not all nations). As far as Israel spying on us, I assure you we are also spying on them. All nations spy on all other nations friend or enemy to the best of their ability.

  • Reuben Hart

    Bob Livingston an anti-semite? Wow! You learn something new every day. Anyway, I agree that there is no biblical reason to support Israel, because the Christian agenda for Israel is never going to happen. The Messiah of Israel won’t have a greek name or title, (Jesus Christ is anglo for Iosis Kristos). Nor an aramaic one…Yeshua. The Saviour of the gentiles isn’t going to come down from heaven on a white horse and set up his cracker kingdom in Israel, though he might come down from heaven in pick-up truck, land in Nashville, and set up his kingdom in the Grand Ole Opry.

    • http://boblivingstonpl.wordpress.com Bob Livingston

      Dear Reuben Hart,

      You write: “Bob Livingston an anti-semite? Wow!” Fallacious assumption. The chasm you just leaped is wider than the Atlantic. Or is it that you can’t form a cogent argument? Charges of racism are the telltale signs of an ignorant or lazy mind.

      Best wishes,
      Bob

      • chester

        Bob, will have to agree that this article did paint you as a bit of an anti-semite, assuming you ARE the author. If not, then the author used that brush on himself.

      • Karolyn

        Why would someone who speaks against total American allegiance and support to Israel be an anti-semite? Using the term sommonly, Most Jews don’t even live in Israel. When someone is against the US Government, does it mean they are against the US people?

      • http://PeronalLiberty Alondra

        Bob Livingston wrote: “Most Americans ARE CONVINCED there is some Biblical duty to support Israel at all costs. THIS IS A FALSE NARRATIVE. America’s intractable support for Israel is driving us toward a war with Russia and China over Syria and Iran. Would a friend do these things?”

        Mr. Livingston, you are not a Christian, you do not read Bible. If you would be a Christian, you would know that for the Christians the BIBLE is their spiritual CONSTITUTION & Declaration of Independence, which were given them by God Himself.

        Mr. Livingston, I am going to disappoint you, but there definitely are the Christians duty to support Israel and Jewish People, which are based on the God’s theology (not catholic or muslim or any other cult or sect). America is a CHRISTIAN COUNTRY.

        The God’s Word says: “Now the LORD had said to Abram: ‘Get out of your country, from your family and from our father’s house, TO A LAND THAT I WILL SHOW YOU. I will make you a GREAT NATION; I will BLESS YOU and make your name great; And you shall be a blessing. I WILL BLESS THOSE WHO BLESS YOU, AND I WILL CURSE HIM WHO CURSES YOU; and IN YOU all the families of the EARTH shall be blessed.’” (Genesis 12:1-3; 13:15)

        Mr. Livingston, you are one who CURSING Israel and slander Christians and BIBLE.
        If you would be a Christian and not catholic, you would know that Israel is God’s nation, God’s People:

        “Israel is My son, even My firstborn.” (Ex.4:22)

        “…for I am a Father to Israel.” (Jer.31:9)

        Mr. Livingston, if you would be a Christian and read the Bible you would know that the Jewish people are God’s legitimate real justifiable children. God created them for his glory. And any, who will curse or slender them, will have very serious consequences.

        Mr. Livingston, if you would be a Christian and read the Bible you would know that there is ONLY ONE NATION on Earth to which GOD PROMISED REAL ESTATE – piece of land in “the land of CANAAN” (not palestine). THAT NATION IS ISRAEL in spite of your ill feeling and deceptive preaching.

        “…I will gather ALL the nations…and I will enter into judgment with them there ON BEHALF of MY PEOPLE and MY HERITAGE ISRAEL, because they have…divided up My LAND…” (Joel 3:2)

        God makes it clear that He will bring into judgment any nation, including America, that forces the division of the land of Israel or the division of Jerusalem.

        “NOT ONE of the good promises which the LORD had made to the HOUSE OF ISRAEL failed; all came to pass.” (Joshua 21: 45)

        “The days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will make a NEW COVENANT WITH THE PEOPLE OF ISRAEL AND WITH THE PEOPLE OF JUDAH. It will not be like the covenant I made with their ancestors when I took them by the hand to lead them out of Egypt, because they did not remain faithful to My covenant, and I turned away from them, declares the LORD. This is the covenant I will establish WITH THE PEOPLE OF ISRAEL after that time, declares the LORD. I will put My laws in their minds and write them on their hearts. I WILL BE THEIR GOD, and THEY WILL BE MY PEOPLE …” (Hebrews 8:7-13)

        “Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in, and in this way ALL ISRAEL WILL BE SAVED … As far as the GOSPEL is concerned, they are enemies for your sake; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, for God’s gifts and His call are IRREVOCABLE. Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, so they too have now become disobedient in order that THEY TOO MAY now[h] RECEIVE MERCY as a result of God’s mercy to you. For God has bound EVERYONE over to disobedience so that He may have mercy on them ALL.”

        Mr. Livingston, you are NOT a Biblical scholar, so on what grounds you are making such UNTRUTHFUL and anti-Israel statement like “THIS IS A FALSE NARRATIVE”.

        Oh, I know sir. I know why you attacking Israel. You are paid for your attacks. Your LOBBYING group, the Livingston Group, represents the government of Egypt, who hates Israel and wants to destroy her. You are acting as lobbyist for Egypt. So now I understand why in the Middle East such tension, especially after learning the FACT that another your “important” client was the Republic of Turkey, on whose behalf your Livingston Group lobbied that American Government does NOT recognize the slaughter of up to 1.5 million Armenians in Turkey as a GENOCIDE.

        Mr. Livingston, both countries (Egypt & Turkey) are Islamic COUNTRIES, where Christians are persecuted & murdered. So this clearly tells me where your heart is.

        Mr. Livingston, I hope you will not sensor my comment.

        May God Bless Israel and America.

        P.S. Mr. Livingston, I think you are ready to enter the Deceiver’s Administration. His Press Secretary Jay Carney Refuses to Identify Jerusalem as the Capital of Israel. It’s OK that you are RINO.

        • http://boblivingstonpl.wordpress.com Bob Livingston

          Dear Alondra,

          You write: “Mr. Livingston, you are not a Christian, you do not read Bible.” Ad hominem. Baseless conjecture.

          You write: “Mr. Livingston, I am going to disappoint you, but there definitely are the Christians duty to support Israel and Jewish People, which are based on the God’s theology (not catholic or muslim or any other cult or sect). America is a CHRISTIAN COUNTRY.” Wrong.

          You write: “The God’s Word says: “Now the LORD had said to Abram: ‘Get out of your country, from your family and from our father’s house, TO A LAND THAT I WILL SHOW YOU. I will make you a GREAT NATION; I will BLESS YOU and make your name great; And you shall be a blessing. I WILL BLESS THOSE WHO BLESS YOU, AND I WILL CURSE HIM WHO CURSES YOU; and IN YOU all the families of the EARTH shall be blessed.’” (Genesis 12:1-3; 13:15)” Yes. The promise was to Abraham and his descendants.

          You write: ““The days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will make a NEW COVENANT WITH THE PEOPLE OF ISRAEL AND WITH THE PEOPLE OF JUDAH. It will not be like the covenant I made with their ancestors when I took them by the hand to lead them out of Egypt, because they did not remain faithful to My covenant, and I turned away from them, declares the LORD. This is the covenant I will establish WITH THE PEOPLE OF ISRAEL after that time, declares the LORD. I will put My laws in their minds and write them on their hearts. I WILL BE THEIR GOD, and THEY WILL BE MY PEOPLE …” (Hebrews 8:7-13)” Thanks for making my point for me. The physical nation of Israel broke its covenant with God by playing the harlot with other Gods. They were taken into captivity:Israel in 722 B.C., Judah in 584 B.C.

          Nehemiah 1: 7-8 (NASB)
          7 We have acted very corruptly against You and have not kept the commandments, nor the statutes, nor the ordinances which You commanded Your servant Moses. 8 Remember the word which You commanded Your servant Moses, saying, ‘If you are unfaithful I will scatter you among the peoples;

          Hosea 8 (NASB)
          8 Israel is swallowed up;
          They are now among the nations
          Like a vessel in which no one delights.
          9 For they have gone up to Assyria,
          Like a wild donkey all alone;
          Ephraim has hired [g]lovers.
          10 Even though they hire allies among the nations,
          Now I will gather them up;
          And they will begin to [h]diminish
          Because of the burden of the king of princes.
          11 Since Ephraim has multiplied altars for sin,
          They have become altars of sinning for him.
          12 Though I wrote for him ten thousand precepts of My law,
          They are regarded as a strange thing.
          13 As for My sacrificial gifts,
          They sacrifice the flesh and eat it,
          But the LORD has taken no delight in them.
          Now He will remember their iniquity,
          And punish them for their sins;
          They will return to Egypt.
          14 For Israel has forgotten his Maker and built palaces;
          And Judah has multiplied fortified cities,
          But I will send a fire on its cities that it may consume its palatial dwellings. (NASB)

          The Jews had one more chance. But they rejected The Christ. Their ending as God’s chosen people was finalized with the destruction of the Temple in 70 A.D. You cite Hebrews 8 which shows that Christians are the spiritual descendants of Abraham. Christ’s kingdom is a spiritual one, not a physical one. There is no basis for belief in another physical nation of Israel with Christ at its head.

          You write: “Mr. Livingston, you are NOT a Biblical scholar, so on what grounds you are making such UNTRUTHFUL and anti-Israel statement like “THIS IS A FALSE NARRATIVE”.” You do not know what I am or am not.

          You write: Oh, I know sir. I know why you attacking Israel.” I have not attacked Israel.

          You write: “You are paid for your attacks. Your LOBBYING group, the Livingston Group, represents the government of Egypt, who hates Israel and wants to destroy her. You are acting as lobbyist for Egypt. So now I understand why in the Middle East such tension, especially after learning the FACT that another your “important” client was the Republic of Turkey, on whose behalf your Livingston Group lobbied that American Government does NOT recognize the slaughter of up to 1.5 million Armenians in Turkey as a GENOCIDE.” You are an idiot. No wonder you are so misinformed as to what the Bible actually says.

          You write:”It’s OK that you are RINO.” I have never claimed to be a Republican. Therefore I cannot be a RINO.

          Best wishes,
          Bob

      • http://PeronalLiberty Alondra

        Oops. Mr. Livingston, I forgot to provide you with the link to the Jay Carney Refuse to Identify Jerusalem as the Capital of Israel
        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oXmnQ3lJPoc

        And here is your “leader” the Kenyan, the Deceiver, calls for 1967 Borders for Israeli-Palestinian States. I hope you will enjoy this video. Aren’t you share his views about Israel? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rbcyuRjiK4A

        Just reminder: “…I will gather ALL the nations…and I will enter into judgment with them there ON BEHALF OF MY PEOPLE and My HERITAGE ISRAEL, because they have…divided up MY LAND…” (Joel 3:2)

        Mr. Livingston, read the Scripture. It gives knowledge and wisdom. Do not serve to Satan.

      • http://PeronalLiberty Alondra

        To understand Bob Livingston’s feelings toward Israel, please GOOGLE

        “Beltway Lobbyists Drop Egypt’s Government as Client”
        By RON NIXON, Published January 28, 2012 in nytimes.com

        Here is the short excerpt from the article:

        “WASHINGTON — Lobbyists for the Egyptian government in Washington have ended their contracts with the country because of growing tensions after a raid by Egyptian authorities on several American nonprofit organizations…
        The lobbying firms include the LIVINGSTON GROUP, run by former Representative Robert L. LIVINGSTON, Republican of Louisiana; the Moffett Group, run by former Representative Toby Moffett, Democrat of Connecticut; and the Podesta Group, owned by Tony PODESTA, ONE OF THE MOST POWERFUL LOBBYISTS in Washington. Mr. Podesta has close ties to the Obama administration.
        The firms were WIDELY CRITICIZED FOR DISTRIBUTING TALKING POINTS DEFENDING the Egyptian government’s raid. They shared a lobbying contract worth more $1.1 million a year to represent Egypt’s interests in Washington, according to documents filed with the Department of Justice.
        Mr. Livingston confirmed in an e-mail to Politico that the three firms had dropped Egypt as a client; Politico reported the ending of the contracts late Friday.
        The firms had formed a joint effort called the PLM Group to advocate on behalf of the government of President Hosni Mubarak. He stepped down early last year after more than two weeks of street protests led by youth activists. According to the filings with the Justice Department, Egypt has paid PLM more than $4 million since 2007.”

        • http://boblivingstonpl.wordpress.com Bob Livingston

          Dear Alondra,

          Has it not occurred to you that there might be more than one Bob Livingston in the world?

          Best wishes,
          Bob

      • Vigilant

        Alondra, kindly do your research in a more meticulous fashion. That’s not the same Bob Livingston who runs this site. I think you owe him an apology for that mischaracterization.

    • TIME

      Dear Reuben,

      So it seems that you don’t know what a Semite is. Let me educate you.
      { A Semite is a Sumerian,} where is it that these people come from? Well the following land mass covers most of it; Iraq / Syira / Jordan.

      The Sumerian’s are the ones who built {“The Gate of God.”}
      AKA the tower of Babylon / Ba-Bel-i-lon also knwn as Bab-ili, they were called the Semite’s, for short way back when.

      I hope todays lesons will garner you with some insight into TRUTH.

      Peace and Love

      • chester

        Well, TIME, it seems that any time some comes out against the Jews, he or she is IMMEDIATELY labeled Anti-Semitic. Now if that isn’t equating Jews and Semites, I don’t know what would be. No fault for the gentleman at the top of this posting, as he was only following common practice. In fact, I believe I have seen you use that very term in relation to Jews in some of your own posts. Now, if you want to debate what is or isn’t a semite according to biblical usage, you may be talking a different story, but that would be according to the bible, not current use.

    • MAP

      An anti-Southern, anti-Christian bigot. Your comment is offensive and insulting. Only in the land of tolerance, er, I mean hypocrisy, right?

    • ALL AMERICAN

      I will bless them them that bless thee and curse them that curse thee.

      Remember those words.

      • Karolyn

        Nobody’s talking about cursing anyone. Should the US remain Israel’s lapdog forever? For what reason?

      • Ron Huff

        The promises to Abraham was to Abraham himself and to his seed, not to Israel, Israel ( Jacob ) had never been born yet, Israel was Abraham’s grandson, I think you need to read the New Testament, Romans and the 3rd chapter of Galations will tell you the believers in Christ are the seed of Abraham.
        Ron

  • dan

    115 billion…a small price to pay for what is essentially the only democratic bastion
    in the middle east that doesn’t think US infidels should die….and who am I to tell YHVH
    where to set up his capitol and how. You are known by your enemies.

    • eddie47d

      Israel already has a capitol in Tel Aviv so why is Romney poking his nose into that issue. The right wingers in Israel want Jerusalem to be the capitol for political reason and to anger the Arabs. Jerusalem has been a contentious issue for generations so why stoke the fires Mr Romney. There are many reasons we should aid and defend Israel yet there is an equal number of reasons we should stop being their patsy. Bob Livingston pointed out a few of those reasons.

      • DonW

        ‘Edie47′ As somebody living in Israel I have no doubt that Iran wishes more then anything to wipe Israel of the map. This has been stated by the President twice and by the Chief of the Armed Forces a short while ago. You have to try and understand their mentality, if they attack Israel with a nuclear bomb and we retaliate causing massive damage and loss of life the Iranian President does not care because he will go down in Muslim history as the one Muslim that struck the greatest blow against the Jews. This is why it is so easy for them to recruit Suicide Bombers, in their minds they know they will die but the blow they inflict on the Jews makes them a Martyr. Two final points, Jerusalem is the capital of Israel not Tel Aviv and in the 70′s a few CIA guy’s were asked to leave the UK because of spying activities. Friends spy on friends and enemies alike, always has been always will.

      • Nadzieja Batki

        Behold, I will make Jerusalem a cup of trembling unto all the people round about….
        And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: All that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it (Zechariah 12:2,3)

        I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle….
        Then shall the Lord go forth and fight against those nations….And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives….And the Lord shall be king over all the earth (Zechariah 14:2-4,9)

        O Israel…I am with thee, saith the Lord, to save thee; though I make a full end of all nations whither I have scattered thee, yet will I not make a full end of thee; but I will correct thee in measure….
        All they that devour thee shall be devoured….Hear the word of the Lord, O ye nations….He that scattereth Israel will gather him and keep him as a shepherd doth his flock…and they shall not sorrow any more at all….

        Thus saith the Lord, which giverth the sun for a light by day and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars…if those ordinances depart from before me…then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation….Behold the days come, saith the Lord, that Jerusalem shall not be plucked up nor thrown down any more forever.

      • Rocky

        Isreal’s Capitol is Jerusalem. It has been since before Christ. The CIA refers to Jerusalem as the Capitol. TEL AVIV is where the US Embassy and other embassies are located.Palestine(wondering nomadic tribes of old Persia wish to occupy Israel) and this has been on-going since Biblical times. Even the Renacense(sp) Holy wars in Europe was a result of Jerusalem’s turmoil. Isiah 59: 700yrs BC Islam apprx 600yrs AD. Ongoing even today Islam wishes to conquer the world Just as Marxist communism.Maybe I’m getting a little absurd. So I’ll close. Read the Bibles and histories and research topics like these.

      • cpa

        Eddie – is that kind of like how New York City is the capital of the USA?

      • eddie47d

        Yes Jerusalem is the capitol,my error.

      • chester

        Eddy, do a bit of studying before spouting off about how Israel only wants to stir up a storm by asking that their capitol be RETURNED to Jerusalem. Seeing as how we kicked a bunch of people OUT of the homes they had owned, many of them for all their lives, to give Israel BACK their homeland, they see it as only appropriate they get their traditional capitol back as well. The big problem with that is that the Muslims DEMAND that Jerusalem be given over to THEM, because their prophet might have lived there at one time or another, or some of their other religious figures have more than a bit to do with the town. As far as the age of the claim, Israel pretty much trumps all of the rest, but when it comes to out and out ownership of the town and various holy sites now, that is a totally different bunch of stories.

    • nc

      Dan, the Jews were the first “modern terrorist” in the Middle East! They sure didn’t mind killing the “British infidels” when they blew up the King David Hotel!When it comes to Israel’s best interest it is US WHO!!!!They are brave! Insanely brave and a danger to our best interest!

      • Nadzieja Batki

        How far back does your word “modern” go back in history?

      • cpa

        The bombing in 1946 was a tragedy. However, let’s add a little context of events surrounding this bombing:

        1. British troops at the time had invaded the Jewish Agency June 29, 1946 and confiscated large quantities of intelligence documents and taken it to the King David Hotel and were holding it there.
        2. British troops had just arrested and imprisoned more than 2,500 Jews from all over Palestine.
        3. A week before, 40 Jews were massacred in the streets.

        The bombing was not about “killing infidels” – keep in mind this is generally a term used by Muslims to kill anyone not Muslim or by Christians during the crusades to kill anyone not Christian. This is not something typically yelled by Israeli suicide bombers – oh wait – when did we have one of those? The bombing was about destroying stolen intelligence and retaliation for the imprisonment and murder of Jews. (Doesn’t make it right – but this was war not peace time terrorism).

        Also important. This bombing was done by a faction acting against the direction of Jewish leaders. The Jewish leadership found out about the bombing and tried to stop it. They also called and contacted both the hotel and consulates to evacuate the hotel in an effort to save lives and prevent the disaster from happening. Their warnings were not headed. British officers who did hear the warnings (and left the hotel on their own and then survived) later testified that there were such warnings received from the Jewish leaders and that the calls were met with “We don’t take orders from the Jews” and hung up on the repeated phone calls. Nearly 100 people shortly there after died – including Jews.

        The Jewish National council denounced the bombings.
        (Note that this is very unlike the Arab attacks on Jews and others (US at 9/11 etc) in which they are widely hailed as heroic and claimed by the governments and Islamist groups taking credit for them and promoting and training for them).

        Israel (like the US or any country) is certainly not without its faults and I am not arguing that they are. But they are by far in the minority on these events – it is actually difficult to find them. And when it does happen, they denounce them and try to prevent them. And they are not at all the “first terrorist”. Bombings and terrorism go way back before 1946. Knowing more about the facts in this case does not dismiss the incorrect action of the bombing. But it does add context.

        Now, let’s talk about terrorism being done AGAINST Israel. Let’s talk about how the Christian church massacred thousands of Jews in forced conversions (Crusade days not today). Let’s talk about burning Jews in synagogues at the direction of Martin Luther (yup, modern protestants – take a look at your history too). Martin Luther’s writings were later used by Hitler in promoting the Holocaust and death of 6 million Jews. Let’s take a look at the modern day American church turning its back on Israel in her time of need out of antisemitism and marching on Jerusalem with calls to take down her walls (modern day – see Rick Warren and all the purpose driven church crowd and other prominent church leaders in America). (Keep in mind – despite this comment, most modern day Christians and churches still support Israel – we all need a reality check on the facts from time to time though and that’s why that is included).

        Let’s talk about thousands of rockets being launched into southern Israel daily and the Palestinians, Iranians, Hezbollah, and Hamas doing that.. Let’s talk about the poor that live along the southern border there because that is all they can afford and who live with daily trips to bomb shelters and many have lost loved ones through this current day ongoing terrorism. Let’s talk about a tourist bus being exploded in Bulgaria a couple weeks ago. Let’s talk about suicide bombers who tend to be of Islamist faith more often than not due to the nature of what the religion teaches blowing up everything from cafes, trains, airplanes, and buildings. Let’s talk about peace in the middle east and why it isn’t working out well. How has it gone in the past when Israel has given up land in exchange for peace and get rockets and war in exchange instead?

        If the USA had someone doing these things to us, we would certainly retaliate and defend ourselves. Just look at the last decade – and to put it into context, that was only over one bombing (granted it was 9/11, the world trade center, and 3.000 Americans killed). But we only experienced terrorism so infrequently (thankfully). Israel lives with this daily.

        If we list out actual time line, events, and actually list the number of times attacks have taken place on one group or another and list them all together by shear number alone even, your comment calling the Israelis the terrorists sounds absurd.

    • Karolyn

      dan -OMG! You’re kidding, right?

  • TIME

    The American Middle class tax payers should not being paying for this Rothschild Criminal venture.

    Any of you who are Christians, if you really think for one moment that the ZIONEST like you, your only fooling yourslf as they HATE YOU.
    They hate everyone who is not one of them, they even hate themselves!

    Peace and Love

    • http://www.facebook.com/introvert321 Shmuel Malov

      You just gave the most hateful diatribe, and you end with peace and love. Is that Arab style ‘Peace and Love”? Or is that Dalai Lama Peace and Love?

  • http://peresonallibertydigest.. gottaplenty

    You never cease to have the libtard stupidity injected into a rational conversation, but disregard.them and keep a united march toward thier expulsion of an outlaw leader. Isreal is our only ally in that part of the globe, If they stand alone ,,we stand alone…

    • TIME

      Dear GAP,

      They are “NOT” our Friends in anyway shape or form.

      Peace and Love

      • Nadzieja Batki

        When you yourself gather people to be your friends don’t you vet them that they think like you, have the same ideals, values, will like and love you thru thick and thin, and will defend you if it is needed. Do you not want to know everything about them and make a point of finding out things about them. The friends also do the same to you, learning everything there is to know about you.
        This is not naivete, it is reality.

      • Karolyn

        TIME is right. Israel cares only about Israel and feels superior to everyone.

    • DaveH

      That would be a good thing (butting out of other countries’ business).
      George Washington was against entangling alliances, and so am I:
      http://www.dailypaul.com/41039/george-washingtons-farewell-speech-against-entangling-alliances

      • s c

        As usual, DaveH, you got it. As for the thrust of the article, while I can’t agree with some of Israel’s methods, I don’t – YET – live in a country where I’m surrounded by enemies. I would suggest that the Israelis need to come to terms with a BUNCH of ‘Jews’ in Amerika who act like they’re anything but Jews.
        Then you get to intelligence agencies and what it takes to survive in a world in which you tend to get blamed for everything under the sun(akin to utopians and how they look at GB). No wonder Israel does things that seem to border on paranoia.
        It’s time for the enemies of Israel to be treated the same way they treat Israelis. When it comes to entangling alliances, DaveH, IF we had LEADERS who weren’t intent on destroying the Constitution, they’d have their collective heads removed from their collective rumps and America would once be a great nation.

      • Marten The Canadian Libertarian

        With Friends like that, who needs Enemies

    • TIME

      Dear Nadzieja,

      I have many friends who are of the Jewish Faith we talk – we think, we explore differant methods of seeing the world as a whole.
      The thing is this, they don’t like Zionest either, they see the malicious face of Evil for what it truly is.

      JFTR – A Zionest can also be from any religion, its the “MIND SET” and its not one of Peace nor Love toward other Humans.

      ZIONEST are diametrically opposed to the Jewish Faith let alone the Christian Faith, for that matter of fact any Faith that believes in Peace and Love of other Humans.

      Thus Zionest are a religion of “WAR and HATE.”

      They are part of the very gang of criminals we face today whom are destroying our nation by way of subversion by way of double speaking, / LIES as well covert and overt political rangling to bring about their “New World Order” / United Nations thugs to crown the fallen one Satan as their King.

      We are all Humans we all have within our Gene code; { YAHAR1 }
      That speaks volumes about who we are.
      On that same note there are Humans who do infact hate other humans and wish only to make slaves of them. They are not easy to spot as they look just like you and I, their are ZIONEST.

      The Christ is the One and only Single RAY of SON light we all must move toward, To serve as his messangers of Truth & Love and Peace toward each other.

      Thats a BEAUTIFUL thing!

      Peace and Love, my friend.

      • http://www.facebook.com/introvert321 Shmuel Malov

        Wow, When you wanna give hate you stop and think about facts do you. I laughed through you whole diatribe. Keep them coming. You most definitely make my day.

  • Sirian

    Bob,
    Good article, this type of info is good to have BUT, if all of this is fact based with a bit of speculation/rhetoric tossed in to add emphasis, just what or who can we say is in reality an ally? Don’t take me wrong, I’m not siding with the Israeli’s or anyone else. But again, if that can not be said of Israel are we in any position to claim the same for say Britain, France, Germany, Japan, South Korea, Taiwan etc.?? From this possibility, is it not apparent that in true actuality we should wholly consider ourselves very much a stand alone nation with the grueling necessity of “spying” on all those that we claim to be ally’s? In other words, Trust No One!?

  • Alan

    I guess kookiness is not limited to those of the liberal persuasion.

    • DaveH

      I guess adolescent manipulative techniques are not limited to those of the Liberal persuasion.

  • http://loboviejo.wordpress.com loboviejo

    Bob–
    That anyone is not aware of this is the real surprise. The main mission of diplomatic missions is intelligence. The main advantage to the Soviet Foreign Minister of the UN HQ in NYC was not the Broadway plays but the extra mission.

    There may be a few third world ambassadors who are dazzled by the bright lights, but they also think their voice is listened to. When Henry Stimson became Secretary of State he closed down the Black Chamber and left the Brits in a position to control what intelligence we got.

    • Vigilant

      “The main mission of diplomatic missions is intelligence.”

      Correct. And that includes the USA. The CIA’s doing as many of the spy vs. spy shenanigans in Israel as Israel is doing to us. You can bank on it.

      • http://loboviejo.wordpress.com loboviejo

        Of course we do it. In the intelligence game simple social pages and finding out who is in and who is out provides more info than satphotos of tanks–we know they have tanks because we did or did not get the contract and Jane’s has the details. We have looked the other way with Israel except for Jonathan Pollard who went too far and was looking for high bidders.

        There are about 60 Russian agents still in country. We know what they are doing but we will only pick them up when we need a trade.

  • eddie47d

    We don’t need to be defending many of the actions of our own CIA yet why is Israeli Intelligence org. Mossad allowed to run rampant within our country. Israel knows who our agents are and where they live yet when their agents come to America they act like the old Soviet agents and steal information and then use it against us. Some friend they are and it could be considered a form of blackmail. .

    • Tom

      I am not sure they are rampant though they may be like so many other terrorist cells and dozens of training camps in this country. Not talking about Right Wing Militia’s. Our own government arming the drug cartels, when what they really want to do is restrict your gun rights.There are wars raging in some of our cities(Chicago), flash mobs that no one seems concerned about.

    • chester

      Eddie, do you seriously think we are NOT doing this very same thing in Israel? If you do, you are far simpler than I give you credit for. Friends spy on friends to be sure they ARE friends, and not enemies pretending to be friends. I suppose you think we don’t have people in most every nation on earth we see as worth watching, and those same countries don’t have people here.

  • Tom

    Give me a break Bob. What happened to China, Russia, Iran, and N. Korea to name a few. Isn’t this a little like calling the kettle black. They must be stealing all the technology we get from them. Drones, etc.

  • http://omniv8 pete0097

    The good thing is that Israel probably won’t use the information against us but will use it against their enemies. They want to know what we know about their neighbors. They want to know about weapons systems that we are planning that they can develope more quickly as they have a greater need.

    • http://boblivingstonpl.wordpress.com Bob Livingston
    • Tom

      I don’t think I would dispute what you say but this is a tiny country surrounded by its enemies. I have stood there and you can see their enemies out post in every direction. They are literally fighting for their life. We can look at some recent massacres here and maybe start to understand. We are the elephant, they the ant. Look at their Nobel Prize Winners. If they can do it faster what happened here. Our Nation is in trouble.

      • Vigilant

        Agreed. THOUSANDS of rockets have beed dispatched by Hamas from the Gaza Strip since Israel ceded it to them. Hesbollah, funded by Iran, sits in the North and commits the same kind of indiscriminate terrorist acts as Hamas and Islamic Jihad.

        What would be the position of the anti-Semites and anti-Zionists if Mexico and/or Canada started doing the same things to us? We’ve already seen that we were willing to go to global war with the USSR when they tried it in Cuba.

        The “Pink” pundits pontificate from their comfortable and safe surroundings without any idea of what the real world is like. It’s time to wake up and recognize that Israel is a force for GOOD in the Middle East, and that the nations surrounding her are forces for EVIL.

        For God’s sake, the Judeo Christian values upon which our own nation was founded had their roots in that area of the world. ISRAEL IS A DEMOCRATIC FORM OF GOVERNMENT. As a result, it’s economy thrives, its people are free, innovative and smart, its judicial system gives even Palestinians a fair shake in courts of law. The nations around her are invariably strong arm ruled and suffer the economic consequences of being so.

        I have absoluitely no problem with ” Israel [being] the largest cumulative recipient of U.S. foreign assistance since World War II.” Oddly unmentioned is that the foreign aid given to the hostile nations which surround her is greater in toto than what she now receives on an annual basis.

        • http://boblivingstonpl.wordpress.com Bob Livingston

          Dear Vigilant,

          You write: “Oddly unmentioned is that the foreign aid given to the hostile nations which surround her is greater in toto than what she now receives on an annual basis.” Nothing odd about it. It is irrelevant to this column.

          Best wishes,
          Bob

      • Vigilant

        BTW, EVERYONE in the world, including the good ole USA, is committing industrial espionage.

      • Vigilant

        “It is irrelevant to this column.”

        I beg to differ. It’s called “perspective” and it’s very relevant to offering a balanced viewpoint. I don’t think many here would agree with you concerning its irrelevance. Unless, that is, they only want to see one side of the story.

      • Vigilant

        And in case it escapes the logic of the few, if financial backing is ostensibly the key to US support, then it follows that the hostile nations surrounding Israel have greater support from us than does Israel. I call that “relevant.”

      • TML

        Vigilant says, “ THOUSANDS of rockets have beed dispatched by Hamas from the Gaza Strip since Israel ceded it to them. Hesbollah, funded by Iran, sits in the North and commits the same kind of indiscriminate terrorist acts as Hamas and Islamic Jihad.”

        Let’s not forget that Hamas was founded during the first uprising of Palestinians in 1987 as a direct result and response to Israeli occupation of Palestinian lands, and that Hezbollah was formed in response to Israeli invasion of Lebanon in 1982. The conflict between these two groups and Israel was started by Israel in attempts to expand their territories… because as you so sympathetically pointed out; they don’t have much.

        Vigilant says, “What would be the position of the anti-Semites and anti-Zionists if Mexico and/or Canada started doing the same things to us?”

        Must any criticism of Israel be considered anti-Semitism or anti-Zionism when it’s clearly reasonable and not hateful? These words have become nothing short of the ‘N’ word and used against anyone who dares speak against Israel. The answer to your question… the position, of course… would be defense.

        Vigilant says, “ It’s time to wake up and recognize that Israel is a force for GOOD in the Middle East, and that the nations surrounding her are forces for EVIL.”

        In what way should we consider all surrounding nations of Israel “Evil”? And in what way should we consider Israel a force for “Good”? Good and evil are subjective moral perceptions shaped by… in your case…religious bias only. Perhaps you should look into the invasion of Lebanon and the treatment of Palestinians by Jews.

        Vigilant says, “ISRAEL IS A DEMOCRATIC FORM OF GOVERNMENT. As a result, it’s economy thrives, its people are free, innovative and smart, its judicial system gives even Palestinians a fair shake in courts of law. The nations around her are invariably strong arm ruled and suffer the economic consequences of being so.”

        A democratic form of government doesn’t make it a force of ‘good’. And your comment of Palestinians getting a fair shake as they were thrown out and evicted from their lands to make way for the state of Israel is very naïve.

        Vigilant says, “For God’s sake, the Judeo Christian values upon which our own nation was founded had their roots in that area of the world.”

        The country was not founded on Judeo-Christian values, if it were; we would be a theocracy like Iran. Our laws are not to respect a religion by legislation of morality that does no physical or financial injury to others. Besides… “Art. 11. As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion…” – Treaty of Tripoli

        Vigilant says, “I have absoluitely no problem with ” Israel [being] the largest cumulative recipient of U.S. foreign assistance since World War II.” Oddly unmentioned is that the foreign aid given to the hostile nations which surround her is greater in toto than what she now receives on an annual basis.”

        Considering our economic troubles at home, I’m against all foreign aid. I have no desire to support a nation which continually draws us into conflict around the world and picks fights with its neighbors only to cry to big brother when they fight back.

      • TML

        Vigilant says, “I beg to differ. It’s called “perspective” and it’s very relevant to offering a balanced viewpoint. I don’t think many here would agree with you concerning its irrelevance. Unless, that is, they only want to see one side of the story.”

        I agree it’s relevant to the financial support of Israel, and points out that there should not be foreign aid to those other countries as well. You should apply that same plea for “perspective” to your own previous comments on the subject regarding your support for Israel. You do want to consider both sides of the story, right?

      • Vigilant

        TML says, “The country was not founded on Judeo-Christian values, if it were; we would be a theocracy like Iran.”

        Non sequitur. And don’t put words in my mouth. The operative word in the sentence is “values,” though that conveniently escapes your notice. “Values” mean tolerance, freedom, individual sovereignty, respect for (not necessarily worship of) the Creator.

        The values and respect for Natural Law expressed by Jefferson in the Declaration, the very thing upon which our Constitution depends and is meaningless without, are those immutable, unalienable rights outlined by John Locke.

        He was not Buddhist monk, Muslim scribe or Hindu priest, he was Christian. The nation was (and is) predominantly Christian in outlook and it took Christian VALUES to build the nation. The world democracies which ensued took their values from our own Declaration and Constitution.

        That secular form of government, our Constitutional Republic, employed Christian values of individual freedom and tolerance to achieve its end. Not Buddhist values, not Islamic values, not Scientology values, not the values of secular humanism or atheism.

      • Nadzieja Batki

        TML, you can see all sides of the story till the crack of doom, and you still will have to come to a decision whether to your bad or good.
        Not being able to decide is also making a decision.

      • Vigilant

        TML says, “Vigilant says, “What would be the position of the anti-Semites and anti-Zionists if Mexico and/or Canada started doing the same things to us?”

        “Must any criticism of Israel be considered anti-Semitism or anti-Zionism when it’s clearly reasonable and not hateful? These words have become nothing short of the ‘N’ word and used against anyone who dares speak against Israel. The answer to your question… the position, of course… would be defense.”

        Fine, it doesn’t matter to me. Revise my question to “What would be the position of the anti-Israel folks if Mexico and/or Canada started doing the same things to us?”

        “The answer to your question… the position, of course… would be defense.”

        BINGO! Thanks for confirming my argument

      • Vigilant

        TML: “Let’s not forget that Hamas was founded during the first uprising of Palestinians in 1987 as a direct result and response to Israeli occupation of Palestinian lands….etc., etc.”

        Does Israel NOW occupy the Gaza Strip? Kind of takes the wind out of your sails, doesn’t it?

        And let’s not forget that Israel’s acquisition of those lands came when the Egyptians, Syrians and Lebanese amassed thousands of troops and materiel along Israel’s borders to crush it forever in 1967. Israel obtained the lands as spoils of war and, as such, they are not occupied lands, they are redrawings of national borders which the leftists like you refuse to grant.

        Moreover, who gives a damn when Hamas was formed? Raining THOUSANDS of rockets on a population to indiscriminately kill men, women and children fits what category of retribution in your mind? Terrorism is terrorism, period, full stop.

      • Vigilant

        TML says, “A democratic form of government doesn’t make it a force of ‘good’”

        And you call ME naive? Under which form of government do you prefer to live? Islamic Republic or Caliphate? Communist dictatorship? Monarchy? Fascism?

        I don’t hear Israelis calling for wiping their neighbors off the face of the map. Now you tell me who’s evil and who’s good.

      • TML

        TML says, “The country was not founded on Judeo-Christian values, if it were; we would be a theocracy like Iran.”

        The operative word, “values” is what drove the conclusion of theocracy. As the Iranian revolution was a revolution of religious values.

        Vigilant says, “Non sequitur. And don’t put words in my mouth. The operative word in the sentence is “values,” though that conveniently escapes your notice.

        Not sure how I put words in your mouth, but the operative word, “values” is what drove the conclusion of theocracy. As the Iranian revolution was a revolution of religious values against western values of secular decadence.

        Vigilant says, “Values” mean tolerance, freedom, individual sovereignty, respect for (not necessarily worship of) the Creator.
        The values and respect for Natural Law expressed by Jefferson in the Declaration, the very thing upon which our Constitution depends and is meaningless without, are those immutable, unalienable rights outlined by John Locke.”

        Freedom, individuality, and personal sovereignty are not strictly Christian values, and certainly not religious values as a whole. As you point out, it is values and respect to “natural law”, which is (or can be) a secular perspective. There are no Christian doctrine to which this nations laws reflect it’s religious values… or at least, shouldn’t be. Even Thomas Jefferson pointed out “In every country and every age, the priest has been hostile to Liberty.”

        Vigilant says, “He was not Buddhist monk, Muslim scribe or Hindu priest, he was Christian. The nation was (and is) predominantly Christian in outlook and it took Christian VALUES to build the nation. The world democracies which ensued took their values from our own Declaration and Constitution.”

        The religious status of Jefferson was irrelevant. He valued logic and reason above all things, as he said, “Question with boldness even the existence of a God, because, if there be one, he must more approve the homage of reason than that of blind folded fear”. Christian values? I think not my friend.

      • TML

        Vigilant says, “BINGO! Thanks for confirming my argument”

        Defense does not encompass preemptive acts of war.

      • TML

        Vigilant says, “Does Israel NOW occupy the Gaza Strip? Kind of takes the wind out of your sails, doesn’t it?”

        No, but not because Israel gave it up… they were driven out.

        Vigilant says, “And let’s not forget that Israel’s acquisition of those lands came when the Egyptians, Syrians and Lebanese amassed thousands of troops and materiel along Israel’s borders to crush it forever in 1967. Israel obtained the lands as spoils of war and, as such, they are not occupied lands, they are redrawings of national borders which the leftists like you refuse to grant.”

        This is mere support for taking of lands which were not theirs. You only support it out of religious bias of what the religious book proclaims.

        Vigilant says, “Moreover, who gives a damn when Hamas was formed? Raining THOUSANDS of rockets on a population to indiscriminately kill men, women and children fits what category of retribution in your mind? Terrorism is terrorism, period, full stop.”

        I’m sure I recognize the atrocities carried out by both sides with such acts, and neither do I support them or ignore them. But if you think “terrorism” is limited to acts that only Muslims can do then you fairly one sided. Even our own government was convicted in the world court for state sponsored international terrorism during the Iran Contra scandal.

      • Nadzieja Batki

        TML,from where did you come up that moth eaten bit of pacifism?

      • TML

        TML says, “A democratic form of government doesn’t make it a force of ‘good’”

        Vigilant says, “And you call ME naive? Under which form of government do you prefer to live?

        Islamic Republic or Caliphate? Communist dictatorship? Monarchy? Fascism?”

        Yes, naïve here to think I don’t prefer the Constitutional Republic I now live… although I think it’s moving toward fascism, or socialism, and don’t particularly call it “good” because of it’s neo-conservative policies. (I’m not a “lefty” btw)

        Vigilant says, “I don’t hear Israelis calling for wiping their neighbors off the face of the map. Now you tell me who’s evil and who’s good.”

        Seriously Vigilant? I would think someone who is so anal about words would have researched the true translation of what was said. There isn’t even an idiom in Farsi for “wipe off the map”. It was a call to specifically remove the regime in charge. I expected better from you.

      • Vigilant

        TML says, “Seriously Vigilant? I would think someone who is so anal about words would have researched the true translation of what was said. There isn’t even an idiom in Farsi for “wipe off the map”. It was a call to specifically remove the regime in charge. I expected better from you.”

        First, I didn’t put those words in quotation marks, did I? I don’t give a rat’s ass whether there’s a Farsi translation for it or not, nor a translation in ANY of the languages of the countries surrounding Israel. That’s not the point, and it’s disingenuous of you to take the discussion off into the twilight zone.

        I don’t know if there’s a Farsi translation for “actions speak louder than words,” nor does it matter if there is.

        “Regime change,” huh? And what does that mean to your miniscule mind? Afternoon Tea? No, it means defeating the nation of Israel. And any of the terrorist nations which surround her, yes, those which teach hatred of the Israelis to their children, how do you think they would treat the victims if they were successful?

      • Vigilant

        TML says, “Vigilant says, “BINGO! Thanks for confirming my argument”

        Defense does not encompass preemptive acts of war.

        Having a problem with reading comprehension, son? We were talking about Hamas’ terrorizing Israelis with rocket attacks. What does that have to do with preemptive acts of war?

      • TML

        Vigilant says, “First, I didn’t put those words in quotation marks, did I? I don’t give a rat’s ass whether there’s a Farsi translation for it or not, nor a translation in ANY of the languages of the countries surrounding Israel. That’s not the point, and it’s disingenuous of you to take the discussion off into the twilight zone.”

        Vigliant… you said, ““I don’t hear Israelis calling for wiping their neighbors off the face of the map. Now you tell me who’s evil and who’s good.”

        Well, I don’t hear Iran calling for wiping their neighbors of the map either. That was the point. Not so “twilight zone” friend.

        Vigilant says, “Regime change,” huh? And what does that mean to your miniscule mind? Afternoon Tea?”

        Regime change… yes, not much different than the calls for regime change by our country. I would think anyone prepared to insult me would notice the hypocrisy of their own statement before saying it. I don’t support their conflicts anymore than I support our country playing policeman of the world and conducting regime changes where it please… but they are THEIR conflicts.

        Vigilant says, “And any of the terrorist nations which surround her, yes, those which teach hatred of the Israelis to their children, how do you think they would treat the victims if they were successful?”

        Not much differently than Israel treated Palestinians I’m sure.

      • TML

        Vigilant says, “What does that have to do with preemptive acts of war?”

        It was an unrelated statement to your obvious support for sanctions against Iran.

        Vigilant says, “Having a problem with reading comprehension, son? We were talking about Hamas’ terrorizing Israelis with rocket attacks.”

        No reading comprehension, son. Defense was my answer… and Israel did bomb (“terrorize”) the innocent inhabitants of Gaza as well.

        • cpa

          How many terrorist acts (bombings) has Israel done to the “innocent” in Gaza?

          How many terrorist acts (bombings) has the Gaza area sent back into Israel?

      • cpa

        Actually, we shouldn’t limit this just to “bombings” which do take place. But we should also include rockets, snipers shooting farmers and civilians, snipers shooting military personnel, kidnappings, rush squads rushing the boarder in an attempt to create and promote violent responses, desecration to holy sites, and the list goes on.

      • Vigilant

        TML says, “and Israel did bomb (“terrorize”) the innocent inhabitants of Gaza as well.”

        Your parenthetical judgment indicates a cognitive dissonance of Herculean proportions. Cowardly. indiscriminate bombardment and shooting of innocent civilians is terroriam. Surgical strike to remove the threat of militants is also “terrorism” in your confused mind.

        Unless, of course, you are a pie-in-the-sky pacifist who thinks that all violence is terrorism.

      • Vigilant

        TML says, “As you point out, it is values and respect to “natural law”, which is (or can be) a secular perspective. There are no Christian doctrine to which this nations [sic] laws reflect it’s [sic] religious values… or at least, shouldn’t be. Even Thomas Jefferson pointed out “In every country and every age, the priest has been hostile to Liberty.”

        Sorry, that’s a simplistic and reductionist perspective that does not face reality.

        First, Jefferson’s observation regarding “In every country and every age, the priest has been hostile to Liberty” has absolutely nothing to do with religious values. You, as so many do, ignore the BIG difference between religion and the church. Jefferson was OBVIOUSLY referring to the abuses in history by church officials when in positions of power. He was not in any way, shape or form making a statement about systems of belief.

        Secondly, Jefferson’s iteration of Natural Law was NOT a secular perspective. His use of the Deist word “Creator” was not some afterthought; it was the very focus of his pronouncement. In point of fact, any system of government based on Natural Law without pinning it to the immutability and authority of a providential lawgiver is doomed to failure.

        It is no coincidence that the ranks of the liberals are largely populated with atheists and “secular humanists.” For most of them, “moral relativism” are the words of the day, since right and wrong are determined by whatever human “enlightened” philosophy holds sway at any given time. Their philosophy depends completely on the concept of the ultimate perfectibility of mankind. Today’s world provides ample evidence of the bankruptcy of that belief.

      • Vigilant

        TML says, “The religious status of Jefferson was irrelevant. He valued logic and reason above all things, as he said, “Question with boldness even the existence of a God, because, if there be one, he must more approve the homage of reason than that of blind folded fear”. Christian values? I think not my friend.”

        Utterly unperceptive statement on your part.

        Jefferson’s religious status, as was the religious status of all the Founders, is not only relevant, it was crucial to the outcome of their deliberations. Had the Founders been raised under Sharia Law, are you saying that their creation of this Republic would have been the same. I hardly think so.

        A secular Constitutional Republic could ONLY have been created under the Christian values that honored individual sovereignty and the freedom to choose. A theocracy was the very last thing the Founders wanted, having seen the historical record of abuses.

        It was precisely the “Dead White European Males,” almost exclusively born into and raised in a society that regularly went to (Christian) church, who gave us the Declaration and Constitution. It is entirely foolish to attempt to distance them from Christianity, a religion and philosophy that imbued their very existence from birth.

        Those Deists (Washington, Jefferson, Franklin, Madison, Paine) molded a nation NOT upon state sponsorship of Christian faith, but upon the VALUES of Christianity. You once again confuse values with belief. The Jefferson quote IN NO WAY refutes Christian values, my friend.

        Jefferson, in fact, so valued the teachings of Christ that he took scissors and excised all references to the supernatural aspects of Christianity from the New Testament, leaving only the words of Christ. He published it as the Jefferson Bible. In other words, Jefferson cherished the CHRISTIAN VALUES of Christ.

        Your argument, as so many that try to conflate religion and the church, falls on its on weight.

      • TML

        Vigilant says, “Your parenthetical judgment indicates a cognitive dissonance of Herculean proportions. Cowardly. indiscriminate bombardment and shooting of innocent civilians is terroriam[sic]. Surgical strike to remove the threat of militants is also “terrorism” in your confused mind.”

        The parenthetical judgment was yours, not mine. Which is why I included it, and so it becomes very interesting that you would say that it is cognitive dissonance of such grave proportions.

        Those ‘surgical’ strikes that killed innocent civilians, including children; you refer to as retribution. Yet, when Muslims bomb targets which do the same thing, you say it is “cowardly indiscriminate terrorist acts”. I call it hypocrisy, but you can call it cognitive dissonance on your part if you like.

        Vigilant says, “Unless, of course, you are a pie-in-the-sky pacifist who thinks that all violence is terrorism.”

        Personally I despise the term. “Terrorism” is what those like you attribute as ANY violence carried out by Muslims. Any enemy in your confused mind must be pitted under this umbrella term. If you would like to call my assessment of facts, and understanding from both sides, pacifism, then so be it.

        Vigilant says, “First, Jefferson’s observation regarding “In every country and every age, the priest has been hostile to Liberty” has absolutely nothing to do with religious values.”

        It’s an expressed value of liberty over organized religion, I agree, and has nothing to do with religious values.

        Vigilant says, “Your argument, as so many that try to conflate religion and the church, falls on its on weight.”

        There is no conflation. You’re grasping at straws to attribute the values of freedom, independence, and person sovereignty exclusively to Christian values as a whole, using a Deist interpretation, while trying to separate “religion [personal spirituality] and the church [organized religion]”. You assume that such values were born out of Christianity when they were not exclusive. Freedom and independence are values of many men, in many countries, cultures, and religions… not exclusive to Christianity. Your argument becomes essentially meaningless… it has no weight at all.

        I suppose, if it makes you happy, you can differentiate that this country was founded on Christian ‘values’, but it’s nothing more than perceptual ignorance for self satisfaction of pride to call them “Christian” values.

        Fact remains; this country was not founded upon the Christian religion, nor was Christianity ever a part of the common law. Even the Founders agree to this as I pointed out.

        Btw…

        Vigilant says, “It is no coincidence that the ranks of the liberals are largely populated with atheists and “secular humanists.”

        It would seem very interesting to you then, that I’m not a liberal. Just because I disagree that this country was founded on values exclusive to Christianity (and even disagree that those are/were Christian values at all), nor the Christian religious doctrines, and because I disagree with your zeal to blindly support Israel based purely on religious bias… doesn’t mean I’m a liberal.

        Vigilant says, “For most of them, “moral relativism” are the words of the day, since right and wrong are determined by whatever human “enlightened” philosophy holds sway at any given time.”

        The term is subjective morality. It requires emotion to make the moral judgment of right or wrong.

        Vigilant says, “Their philosophy depends completely on the concept of the ultimate perfectibility of mankind.”

        I don’t see what’s wrong with that, although I certainly don’t align with progressives. Your philosophy that an objective morality even exists is folly which rears its head in the essential argument ‘the bible tells me so’. History provides ample evidence of the bankruptcy of that belief.

      • Vigilant

        TML paints himself in a corner with “Your philosophy that an objective morality even exists is folly which rears its head in the essential argument ‘the bible [sic] tells me so’.”

        In your short attention span, you must have forgotten that I told you I’m neither Christian nor Jew. I am a Deist.

        Your statement to me could as well have been made to Thomas Jefferson, and would have been equally foolhardy. The very heart of his expression of Natural Law in the Declaration of Independence is precisely that: a philosophy of objective morality. Immutable, unchanging, not morally relativistic, Creator-endowed unalienable rights. Jefferson didn’t take that from the Bible and neither do I. And he would be unlikely to welcome your ridiculous assertion that he was engaging in folly when he penned those famous words in the Declaration.

        Unless, that is, you foolishly believe that rights to life, liberty and property (Locke’s original example) have a basis in secular considerations only.

        You are free to entertain whatever you want to with regard to religious beliefs, but be advised: if you believe that Natural Rights are relative, then you have sided with the progressives who have no qualms with government insinuating itself into your daily life to deprive you of life (abortion), liberty (choose from thousands of proscriptive laws and regulations) and property (confiscatory taxation and wealth redistribution).

        To correct your fallacious thinking, history provides ample evidence of the supremacy of that belief (objective morality). Once the freest, most prosperous and beneficent nation on earth, the USA was eloquent testimony to the primacy of immutable Natural Law. It’s Constitution, now regularly scorned by the leftists for this very reason, is called a “living document” because they would treat it as a loose guide to be revised at will dependent only upon whatever current social trend is foremost.

      • Vigilant

        TML says, “Vigilant says, “For most of them, “moral relativism” are the words of the day, since right and wrong are determined by whatever human “enlightened” philosophy holds sway at any given time.”

        “The term is subjective morality. It requires emotion to make the moral judgment of right or wrong.”

        And you try to tell me that you are not a progressive? Virtually all of the progressive arguments are based on emotion with scant regard for fact and logic. Appeals to emotion, as patriotism was called, are the last refuge of the scoundrel.

        Moral relativism and “subjective morality” are one and the same. And you say I’m anal about words? The mere fact that the noun “morality” is modified by the adjective “subjective” indicates that “objective morality” is also a legitimate term.

        If you believe that Sharia “honor killings,” stoning to death for minor offenses and communist appropriations of property are OK, then you deny the sanctity and objectivity of Natural Law.
        If you maintain that there’s not a whit of difference between targeting military operatives and innocent populations, then you are indeed a victim of subjective morality, i.e., a progressive.

      • Vigilant

        In one of his most ridiculous statements yet, TML says, “Those ‘surgical’ strikes that killed innocent civilians, including children; you refer to as retribution. Yet, when Muslims bomb targets which do the same thing, you say it is “cowardly indiscriminate terrorist acts”. I call it hypocrisy, but you can call it cognitive dissonance on your part if you like.”

        Shall I lay it out for you in the simplest terms? Hamas INTENDS TO KILL INNOCENT CIVILIANS. The Israleis do everything to avoid it.

        The hypocrisy is clearly yours, my friend.

      • TML

        Vigilant says, “In your short attention span, you must have forgotten that I told you I’m neither Christian nor Jew. I am a Deist.”

        Sorry I missed that below… I have a limited time on here to express views on the founding of the nation, the nature or morality, and support for Israel.

        It seems strange for a Deist who proclaims himself non-Christian to cite a founding deist to support claims that the country was founded on ‘Christian’ “values”.

        Vigilant says, “The very heart of his expression of Natural Law in the Declaration of Independence is precisely that: a philosophy of objective morality. Immutable, unchanging, not morally relativistic, Creator-endowed unalienable rights.”

        An immutable, unchanging morality, is not mutually exclusive to the concepts of moral subjectivity I’m talking about. What you are talking about is an “absolute” morality. NOT an “objective” morality.

        Vigilant says, “Jefferson didn’t take that from the Bible and neither do I.”

        Thus, I say, such values are not Christian based. Thank you for admitting the core of my argument.

        Vigilant says, “And he would be unlikely to welcome your ridiculous assertion that he was engaging in folly when he penned those famous words in the Declaration.”

        I never said he engaged in folly when he penned those famous words. Putting words in my mouth and then attacking those words, is fallacious.

        Vigilant says, “It’s Constitution, now regularly scorned by the leftists for this very reason, is called a “living document” because they would treat it as a loose guide to be revised at will dependent only upon whatever current social trend is foremost.”

        I guess that’s why most call me a constitutional conservative, as I hold to the values and principles expressed in the constitution and Bill of Rights which should not be treated as a guide to be revised at will dependent upon whatever current social trend is foremost.

        Vigilant says, “And you try to tell me that you are not a progressive? Virtually all of the progressive arguments are based on emotion with scant regard for fact and logic. Appeals to emotion, as patriotism was called, are the last refuge of the scoundrel.”

        I’ve made no appeal to emotion. I merely recognize that morality is subjective in nature. Knowing that, however, does not stop me from holding to principles I personally believe in and agree with.

        Vigilant says, “If you believe that Sharia “honor killings,” stoning to death for minor offenses and communist appropriations of property are OK, then you deny the sanctity and objectivity of Natural Law.”

        Never said I think it’s ok. But I also don’t say it’s our responsibility to go in search of monsters to destroy.

        Vigilant says, “If you maintain that there’s not a whit of difference between targeting military operatives and innocent populations, then you are indeed a victim of subjective morality, i.e., a progressive.”

        Vigilant says, “Shall I lay it out for you in the simplest terms? Hamas INTENDS TO KILL INNOCENT CIVILIANS. The Israleis do everything to avoid it.”

        No, I would maintain that there is not a wit of difference in rockets killing innocent people in Gaza, and rockets killing innocent people in Israel. The intent to do so is negligible and difficult to prove, and therefore support neither of them. I hold that a sovereign country has the right to defend itself, and that such clashes are unfortunate, but that we, as Americans, should not intervene in those affairs by choosing sides, and going to war with the entire Middle East over a spit of land half way across the globe that we helped create in the first place. I agree with the philosophy of non-intervention for many, many reasons. I respect the warning from founders about entangling alliances. I hold to the wisdom of John Quincy Adams in his warning against American going abroad in search of monsters to destroy and warnings of others about enlisting under the banners of foreign independence.

      • TML

        And now, friends and countrymen, if the wise and learned philosophers of the elder world, the first observers of nutation and aberration, the discoverers of maddening ether and invisible planets, the inventors of Congreve rockets and Shrapnel shells, should find their hearts disposed to enquire what has America done for the benefit of mankind?

        Let our answer be this: America, with the same voice which spoke herself into existence as a nation, proclaimed to mankind the inextinguishable rights of human nature, and the only lawful foundations of government. America, in the assembly of nations, since her admission among them, has invariably, though often fruitlessly, held forth to them the hand of honest friendship, of equal freedom, of generous reciprocity. She has uniformly spoken among them, though often to heedless and often to disdainful ears, the language of equal liberty, of equal justice, and of equal rights. She has, in the lapse of nearly half a century, without a single exception, respected the independence of other nations while asserting and maintaining her own.

        She has abstained from interference in the concerns of others, even when conflict has been for principles to which she clings, as to the last vital drop that visits the heart.

        She has seen that probably for centuries to come, all the contests of that Aceldama the European world, will be contests of inveterate power, and emerging right.

        Wherever the standard of freedom and Independence has been or shall be unfurled, there will her heart, her benedictions and her prayers be. But she goes not abroad, in search of monsters to destroy. She is the well-wisher to the freedom and independence of all. She is the champion and vindicator only of her own. She will commend the general cause by the countenance of her voice, and the benignant sympathy of her example.

        She well knows that by once enlisting under other banners than her own, were they even the banners of foreign independence, she would involve herself beyond the power of extrication, in all the wars of interest and intrigue, of individual avarice, envy, and ambition, which assume the colors and usurp the standard of freedom.

        The fundamental maxims of her policy would insensibly change from liberty to force…. She might become the dictatress of the world. She would be no longer the ruler of her own spirit….

        [America's] glory is not dominion, but liberty. Her march is the march of the mind. She has a spear and a shield: but the motto upon her shield is, Freedom, Independence, Peace. This has been her Declaration: this has been, as far as her necessary intercourse with the rest of mankind would permit, her practice.

        John Quincy Adams – 1821

      • TML
  • eddie47d

    I have always admired Israel’s tenacity and their ability to punch back when attacked.Yet when they threaten to bomb Iran because of cheap talk and little proof we should back off and let them know they are on their own. Unfortunately the cards are stacked against us and we could be in a war because of the bluster from Obama and Romney. Both have pledged allegiance to whatever Israel does . If Israel strikes on it’s own we will automatically be dragged in

    • Vigilant

      Then you’re comfortable with Saudi Arabia joining the nuclear club with the aid of Pakistan? The feelers are already out, and the Saudis (Sunnis) know that a nuclear Iran (Shiites) would spell the end of any hope for peace.

      If Iran’s intentions are so peaceful, tell me eddie why a country with some of the largest oil reserves in the world is opting for nuclear power. Because they’re “environmentally sensitive?” Only the most gullible of Pollyannas can’t see the handwriting on the wall.

      • DaveH

        So you think that it’s okay for the US to be nuclear armed, but not for other countries?
        And the US is the only country that has ever actually used Nuclear Weapons against another country.

      • cpa

        Yes Dave H – I am perfectly comfortable with the USA being the ONLY one with nuclear weapons and no one else having them at all (if that were even possible). Nuclear weapons are not a 2 year old fair share kind of game. Countries that support and direct terrorism (Iran) actually do not “need” to have them too. I do not feel everyone needs to have one to be “fair”. We are not passing out cupcakes at a birthday party.

        I do, however, want the US to have them – why? because I live here. I don’t want to be the declawed cat at the mercy of others diplomacy only waiting for them to bomb us while we can do nothing about it. The truth of it is, it would be nice if there was no such thing as a nuclear weapon in existence. But the reality is, that there is. Once here, it will never go away. With Russia, we had the result of relative safety from them in that neither country wanted to have mutual assured destruction. We do not have the same with Iran. That’s exactly what they do want. I am not afraid of the country with multiple nuclear weapons who has yet to use them – I’m afraid of the country (or terrorist) who only wants one or two and can’t wait to get there.

        It is better to have them and not have to use them. This is protection.

        Anyone having nuclear weapons needs to have along with it responsibility in their use. Those who promote suicide bombings and terror and want to bring about world chaos- no, I don’t think it’s in our best interest to think “it’s only fair if they have them too”. And please note – the USA has had them and the last time used was Japan. The world then realized how devastating a weapon this was and the USA and the world have worked to not use such a weapon again since due to the horror of it. Do not think that everyone out there will utilize such restraint.

        And btw, it is not just Isreal they want to bomb – and yes they do want to “wipe them off the face of the earth” as stated by the leader of Iran openly and truthfully. They want to do the same to the USA. Defending Israel is defending ourselves. Once they are done with Israel, they will come here. (We are the ones called the “big satan”.)

      • MAP

        Vigilant, are you a Neo-conservative? Many of your comments describe you as such.

      • TIME

        Dear MAP,

        My Brother did you hit the bloody nail on the head!!!!!!!!!

        Peace and Love

      • TML

        “If Iran’s intentions are so peaceful, tell me eddie why a country with some of the largest oil reserves in the world is opting for nuclear power. Because they’re “environmentally sensitive?” Only the most gullible of Pollyannas can’t see the handwriting on the wall.”

        There is a difference between developing nuclear power, and nuclear weapons… I’m sure you know.

        Considering that Iran is part of the Non-Proliferation Treaty, while only 4 countries are not… one of those including Israel… and considering that Iran is allowed under that Treaty to develop nuclear power, I’d say you are too gullible to the fear mongering of Israel and Sunni’s.

        Iran could easily withdraw from the Treaty the same as North Korea did, if they truly had the intent of building nuclear ‘weapons’. Strangely enough, North Korea has not blown up the world either.

        Iran has the right to self defense. You have misplaced fear Vigilant.

        MAP… I’m starting to think the same thing.

      • Vigilant

        MAP and TML (forget TIME, he’s just along for the ride because he doesn’t like me, and doesn’t understand what a neoCon is anyway), let me tell you what I believe regarding US foreign affairs:

        I think the US spends way too much on the miltary budget. I think we have been unwise to ever have followed Bill Clinton’s “nation building” fiasco which Bush felt he had to continue.

        I think we should have been out of Afghanistan and Iraq long ago, and perhaps never have been there in the first place. I think we have way too many military bases around the world that uselessly suck up taxpayers’ funds, and that our allies need to take a much greater part in their own self defense.

        I do not believe in military adventurism, nor do I think we should engage in war without a formal Congressional declaration.

        If that defines a neoCon, then I guess I’m guilty.

      • Vigilant

        “Iran could easily withdraw from the Treaty the same as North Korea did, if they truly had the intent of building nuclear ‘weapons’. Strangely enough, North Korea has not blown up the world either.”

        You should have been with Jimmy Carter when he went to N. Korea and took their word for it that they wouldn’t develop nuclear weapons. Or perhaps with Chamberlain at Munich when he believed Hitler’s claims that he would seek no further territory. You are all gullible Pollyannas.

        “Iran could easily withdraw from the Treaty the same as North Korea did, if they truly had the intent of building nuclear ‘weapons’.”

        How about, Iran could easily NOT withdraw from the Treaty and still build nuclear weapons.” Given the duplicitous nature of that government, I wouldn’t put it past them for a moment.

        TML, answer the question I posed to eddie: ” If Iran’s intentions are so peaceful, tell me why a country with some of the largest oil reserves in the world is opting for nuclear power. Because they’re “environmentally sensitive?”

        And don’t give me that fluff about either self defense or non proliferation agreements, that was not the question..

      • TML

        Thanks for the clarification Vigilant… no, that’s not what I would define as neo-conservative. Although your unconditional support of Israel through your religious beliefs tends to support some of their policies.

      • TML

        So, you’re worried that it’s a mere ruse with intent to use preemptively, and not as deterrent defense measures. Which seems most likely? And I invite you to look at the true translation of Farsi in deciding for yourself that there was no call to “wipe Israel off the map”.

        Vigilant says, “You should have been with Jimmy Carter when he went to N. Korea and took their word for it that they wouldn’t develop nuclear weapons.”

        Why? Did North Korea use them?

        Vigilant says, “TML, answer the question I posed to eddie: ” If Iran’s intentions are so peaceful, tell me why a country with some of the largest oil reserves in the world is opting for nuclear power. Because they’re “environmentally sensitive?”

        And don’t give me that fluff about either self defense or non proliferation agreements, that was not the question..”

        The same reason any country seeks nuclear energy. You can ignore the non-proliferation treaty out of misplaced fear if you like, but they are allowed to develop nuclear energy. You seem to think that while they have that right, they are suspect for pursuing it. Perhaps they want another source of energy that can be traded when other nations preemptively place sanctions on their oil trading in attempts to conduct economic warfare.
        Btw… I do not share your fears of Iran having nuclear weapon for defense, it doesn’t make me gullible. I would think the position based on fear is more so.

      • eddie47d

        Actually Vigilant Iran does believe in alternative energy resources. Because they have no oil refineries they have to depend on other nations for gasoline and are trying to be energy efficient.I have never been gung ho over nuclear power here or elsewhere but it can work in the proper locations.They do need plenty of water to operate and Iran only has a few locations where that can be done. Southern Iran is susceptible to earthquakes so that area of their country would be a poor choice. The USA also has some nuke plants located in earthquake zones. Saudi Arabia is basically in the same position and should seek out alternatives. They can’t be a one trick pony (oil) forever.

      • TIME

        Oh, Dear V,

        Its not that I don’t like you, its really a case of you don’t like yourself.
        In fact its all due to your lacking ability to open your mind and expand beyond the “FEARS” that are restricting and eating at you.

        You FEAR what you don’t know, so you wish to suplaimate a FALSE enemy as the object of your discontent.
        Hey Dude – we all have at some point in TIME. Just as we all have been ignorant at some point in TIME.
        Its a learning curb, afterall thats what life is all about learning to be HUMAN.

        { I am simply a Messenger} sent to wake as many as can I can.
        I serve only – “PEACE – LOVE & TRUTH.” I have no vested interest in anything other than what I was called to do.

        But – If your so offended by this attribute, than so be it.

        Do you really think that all Messengers are sweet candy like goo people. Well I am here to tell you, thats a BIG PHAT – NO.

        They do what it takes to wake the sleeping.
        “The Whore of Babylon” has twisted many, Hey – {a little secret it affected even me at a point in TIME.}

        Perhaps for today you may wish to say some more funny things so I can LOL yet again, my sides are sore, but hey I can take it.

        Remenber to take the Sabbath off – thats Saturday as in 8/4/2012.
        Have a Nice Day ;-)

        Until later, Peace and Love & Truth

      • Vigilant

        TML says, “Thanks for the clarification Vigilant… no, that’s not what I would define as neo-conservative. Although your unconditional support of Israel through your religious beliefs tends to support some of their policies.”

        TML, you don’t have a clue about my religious beliefs. I am neither Christian nor Jew. Nor am I an atheist. I am a Deist.

        I agree with Ron Paul completely when it comes to military adventurism, but I do not subscribe to his policies on Israel in toto. Specifically, on leaving them out to dry in the event of military hostilities.

        Israel took out Saddam Hussein’s nuclear ambitions in the 1980s through surgical strike. Israel took out Syria’s nuclear ambitions more recently. I expect them to hit Iran (surgically) when the time is right, and will applaud them for doing so. Does anyone seriously think that Israel has territorial ambitions? Does anyone seriously think that Israel is interested in anything other than survival?

        I don’t expect ever to see a boots-on-the-ground war with Iran. That’s an option long ago dismissed by the Pentagon as a virtual impossibility. We have no resources to accomplish it, and they know it.

      • Vigilant

        TML says, “Vigilant says, “You should have been with Jimmy Carter when he went to N. Korea and took their word for it that they wouldn’t develop nuclear weapons.”

        Why? Did North Korea use them?”

        Along with Pakistan, N. Korea has been a major exporter of delivery vehicles and technology to rogue nations. Notwithstanding that, they are testing long range weapons capabilities for EMP warheads. They aren’t just friendly Asians in their rice paddies, their intent is evil and sinister. In short, you may not have noticed it, but the N. Koreana are the bad guys.

        Hitler hadn’t use blitzkrieg either prior to Munich. To use a trite phrase, “an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.” Only faulty logic and a naive world view would dictate a position that just because something hasn’t been accomplished, that it would never be accomplshed.

      • Vigilant

        TML, beating a dead horse, says, “And I invite you to look at the true translation of Farsi in deciding for yourself that there was no call to “wipe Israel off the map”.”

        What you consider to be some great revelation has been known for some time. That’s why I didn’t put it in quotation marks when I first used it, but you ignore my explanation for the second time. Plus, you assume without merit that I was talking about Iran in particular.

        But, since you bring it up, let’s look at some of Ahmadinejad’s statements:

        “We ask the West to remove what they created sixty years ago and if they do not listen to our recommendations, then the Palestinian nation and other nations will eventually do this for them.”

        “Anybody who recognizes Israel will burn in the fire of the Islamic nation’s fury.”

        “Remove Israel before it is too late and save yourself from the fury of regional nations.”

        “If the West does not support Israel, this regime will be toppled. As it has lost its raison d’ tre, Israel will be annihilated.”

        “Israel is a tyrannical regime that will one day will be destroyed.”

        “Israel is a rotten, dried tree that will be annihilated in one storm.”

        To fixate on one ostensibly mistranslated quote to hang your philosophical hat on is rather disingenuous, I’d say.

        ·

      • Vigilant

        eddie says, “Actually Vigilant Iran does believe in alternative energy resources. Because they have no oil refineries they have to depend on other nations for gasoline and are trying to be energy efficient.”

        There are MANY indicators of Iran’s lack of forthrightness, which you ignore at your peril. It’s weaponization aims and it’s documented coverup attempts are well known.

        If you have the sack, read http://www.vertic.org/pages/posts/nuclear-verification-issues-and-priorities-in-iran-243.php for an eye-opener regarding Irans’ real aims.

        Churchill and a few others saw Hitler’s real plan in the mid 1930s. They were pooh poohed and denigrated for it. The handwriting is on the wall, and it’s written large for those with the ability to read.

  • http://n.a. Mort

    In the lead paragraphs, it is rather disingenuous to state ‘mostly in the form of military assistance,but SIGNIFICANT in economic assistance as well’. You give numbers for the military, which is almost all spent in the USA, but nada for that ‘Significant’ economic assistance. Might I posit that ‘significant’ is minimal?

    Does Israel ‘spy’ on the USA? I sure hope so, and I will suspect that they ‘spy’ on many other countries as well.Does the USA ‘spy’ on Israel? I can nearly gurantee that we do, as well as we spy on Great Britain, France, Russia,and every place else that we can.

    • Tom

      Ditto!

  • http://n.a. Mort

    cont. For that matter, every country, within its capabilities, spies on every other countries that it ca, and where it perceives a benefit from that spying. Whether it be military or economic.

    We, in the USA, have, in the past that I have personal knowledge of, received untold benefits from Israeli spying on countries that are, or have been, enemies of the USA. Much of our elctronic countermeasures was highly dependent on that.I suspect it continues today.

    • DaveH

      Why do we have so many enemies?
      Why does Ron Paul get more donations from military personnel (who actually know what’s going on) than any other candidate (by far)?
      How do we expect to escape the ultimate destruction that has befallen every other empire in history?
      Why don’t we trade peaceably with other nations instead of practicing gun-point diplomacy?

      • Nadzieja Batki

        But this is our human nature, ugly and all.

      • Karolyn

        Nadzieja – “Our’ human nature? I think not. It’s more like indoctrinatination.

  • cpa

    And when was the last time we were bombed or attacked or had our military soldiers killed by an Israeli?

    Let’s try pulling our funding from those who do blow up world trade centers and fund, train, and promote (or hide), those who do first. That is money poorly spent.

    • Frank From PA

      Why Pollard Should Never Be Released (The Traitor)

      The Case Against Johnathon Pollard

      http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/fr/576453/posts

      • cpa

        Frank, I still don’t see where this is an example of an Israeli attack on USA troops or citizens resulting in our deaths. I don’t see that this resulted in an Israeli entering into Ft Hood and attacking / killing / injuring his fellow soldiers. I don’t see him with bombs in his underwear or blowing up a train station. I don’t see him flying an airplane into US citizen workplaces.

        It’s a good article and warrants discussion. It sounds as though for numerous reasons this man should not have been hired by our government in the first place. However, the topic of the article is on spying, which is being discussed elsewhere on this site and in Bob’s article. No one has argued that spying does not take place by them or any other country as well as by us. When found out, that should be prosecuted appropriately (as it was) if and when a law is broken.

        My point was is that I do not see them (Israelis) using information to attack the USA.

  • Dave Gunn

    Really! Anti-Semitism hurts our movement. Perhaps the reason the Israelis do not trust us enough to share intelligence is that our White House and agencies connected leak all over the place. Would you trust Obama with your intelligence secrets?

    • Vigilant

      Only during a non-election year. But I wouldn’t share knowledge with him during the off years either because he’s guaranteed to self-aggrandize himself at the earliest opportunity, regardless of who he puts in harm’s way.

  • DavidL

    There is nothing anti-Semitic about your piece today, Bob. Criticism of Israel in not inherently prejudicial anymore than criticism of the behavior of a black man is inherently racist. You are criticizing Israel’s behavior, nothing more. I am a supporter of Israel and would take up arms to defend her. But I too, as well as most of the world community, am critical of Israel with respect to its illegal settlement policies and practices. (Even the Israeli Supreme Court has declared them illegal). I don’t, however, completely share your views with the following:

    A. We do not give Israel anything it wants. President Obama said no, and continues to say no, about an up-front military attack on Iran by Israel or by us.

    B. There will be no US war with Russia and China.

    C. Neo-cons always want to fight wars. They are legends in their own minds.

    C. We have spies in Israel as well.

    D. Israel is an important US ally that serves our military and economic interests in the region. Friends like that are expensive. Not having them would cost us a heck of a lot more in blood and treasure.

    Be well, Bob.

    DavidL

    • DaveH

      The key sentence in your comment, DavidL, is — “I am a supporter of Israel and would take up arms to defend her”.
      Great. I applaud that. But the problem comes in when Government does that support at the expense of people who don’t feel the way you do. Government should not be allowed to give money away from unwilling donors. If they act as a collecting point for willing donors, I would have no problem with that. I would question the wisdom, however, of anybody who would let the inefficient self-serving people in Government administer their money.

      • Nadzieja Batki

        So have the government make up the statements for all the monies that were handed out to all foreign nations since the US started handing out foreign aid and give those nations a year to pay all those monies back.
        We entangled ourselves with all those nations by giving them foreign aid so technically we own those nations and everything that exists in those nations.

      • johnny

        I am a supporter of Israel and would take up arms to defend her”.but not the President he ned’s to help israel or get out of offce in DC.

        And when was the last time we were bombed or attacked or had our military soldiers killed by an Israeli?

      • eddie47d

        Israel knows how far they can push us and they also know which side their bread is buttered on. They are territory useful to us and we are financially useful to them.

      • Vigilant

        DaceH says, “But the problem comes in when Government does that support at the expense of people who don’t feel the way you do. Government should not be allowed to give money away from unwilling donors.”

        It’s a great idea, Dave, but you know and I know that the government doesn’t poll us to see how we want our tax money spent on every issue. If that were the case, I’d send in only about 10% of my earnings every year. I’d say at least 90% of current revenue is spent on wealth redistribution and political paybacks, the rest for legitimate reasons.

  • Jack Potok

    I am in usual agreement with your conservative priniples, but must take umbrage on today’s column. It is grossly unfair to not differentiate from “loans” and outright ‘grants’.
    The majority of “aid” to Israel has been loans, of which Israel has never defaulted. You oversimplify the rest of your article and has induced the response to be pretty much anti-Israel. Spy vs. Spy is an old tradition. The CIA has no right to cry “foul” as they are spying, and interfering, everywhere (Central America, South America, Middle East, Africa, etc.). America gives “aid”, with no questions asked, to almost every Country, including the “PLA” and Hamas, a terrorist organization. As far as “Palestinian” territory, well the uneducated and uninformed who think Israel invaded Lebanon for ‘land’ and not self defense, shoud re-read the Balfour Declaration and realize over 80% of the British Mandate of Palestine was given to the Kingdom of Jordan….the real division of “Palestine”.
    There was no country of Jordan before. There has alsways been an “Israel”. Why do the phoney “Palestinians” not ask or fight for the return of their Jordanian ‘Homeland’….because they are not Jews.

    • johnny

      you got thet right my friend.
      they are not Jews

  • Dave

    The Bible says that the nation that supports Israel will prosper – if the US doesn’t support Israel it will contribute to her downfall. Islamism considers Israel as the “little devil” and the US as the “big devil” – both of which Islamism is trying to destroy. Islam has made considerable progress in the US. Perhaps there was a reason for the Israeli spies in the US – this should be found out and the appropriate officials (US Feds, FBI, CIA etc) should work together against the common enemies of Israel and the US. Those committing crimes should be dealt with appropriately.

    • http://boblivingstonpl.wordpress.com Bob Livingston

      Dear Dave,

      You write: “The Bible says that the nation that supports Israel will prosper – if the US doesn’t support Israel it will contribute to her downfall.” Please cite for me book, chapter and verse.

      Best wishes,
      Bob

      • cpa

        Here’s a couple:

        Genesis 12:3 “And I will bless them that bless thee and curse him that curseth thee; and in thee shall all nations of the earth be blessed.”

        Psalm 122:6 “Pray for the peace of Jerusalem, they shall prosper that love thee.”

        • http://boblivingstonpl.wordpress.com Bob Livingston

          Dear cpa,

          You will have to go back to the drawing board. Gen. 12:3 was addressed to Abraham. The nation of Israel did not exist, as Israel (Jacob) had not yet been born. Psalms 122:6 is David praying to the Lord.

          Best wishes,
          Bob

      • cpa

        Bob,

        You may have missed it, but if you take another look at Gen 12, the chapter is God addressing Abraham… and the blessing God is granting to him not just to Abraham (or Abram at this point) himself but to the future nation God is promising him to turn the offspring decedents of Abraham into -> this becomes the nation of lsrael.

        “The Lord had said to Abram, “Leave your country, your people and your father’s household and go to the land I will show you. I will make you INTO A GREAT NATION and I WILL BLESS YOU; I will make your name great, and you will be a blessing, I will bless those who bless you, and whoever curses you I will curse; and all peoples on earth will be blessed through you.” Gen 12:1-3

        “The Lord appeared to Abram and said, “To your offspring I will give this land.” Gen 12:7

        Later the Lord expands on this when Abraham is asking about his lack of children that the Lord had promised him and is worried a servant will take his inheritance instead of a son. The Lord responds, “This man will not be your heir, but a son coming from your own body will be your heir.” He took him outside and said, “Look up at the heavens and count the stars – if indeed you can count them.” Then he said to him, “So shall your offspring be.” Abram believed the Lord, and he credited it to him as righteousness.” Gen 15: 2-7

        “On that day the Lord made a covenant with Abram and said, “To your descendants I give this land, from the river of Egypt to the great river, the Euphrates – the land of the Kenites, Kenizzites, Kadmonites, Hittites, Perizzites, Rephaites, Amorites, Canaanites, Girgashites and Jebusites.” Gen 15:18-21

        Note the land stated that was given by God here to the offspring of Abraham and consider this area modern day. God isn’t talking about for just Abraham alone – he is stating it for the future Jewish nation (Israel as we know it today).

        The Lord predicts this will happen after Abrahams’ offspring are taken into captivity in Egypt and the Lord will lead them out. If you’ve read the Bible you are familiar with the story of this later taking place as the Lord leads his chosen people the Jews up out of Egypt and across the Red Sea and through the desert. They later take possession of what is now considered the land of Israel (the exact boarders are of course still in dispute). If you go by the God given boarders stated above – quite a bit bigger than those advocated for the 1967 boarders or even the current boarders today.

        There is of course an issue over his descendants with Isaac and Ishmael (we don’t have room to go into this here).

        There can be plenty of arguments raised here. Keep in mind that Islam claims Abraham as a forefather as well.

        But make not mistake, who God was blessing was Abram AND his future offspring which God would make into a nation. You can make the argument whether this nation is Israel or some sort of Islamic nation. I know what I believe it is and you can decide for yourself.

        As for Psalm 122 – yes you are correct. This is a prayer David is praying. You asked for Biblical reference and support for blessings on those who side with / support Israel. David is praying here a blessing over all those who pray for the peace of Jerusalem and of the Jewish nation or Israel (whatever the name of the group is modern day the blessing is the same). I am not sure if you are trying to disqualify this because it was a prayer made by David and not spoken by God? Those following a Biblical reference code for blessing tend to believe in the power of prayer and that of blessing and curses. This is a blessing placed on us by the prayer of David if we so chose to enter into the support of Israel. I think I’ve given you the support you asked for by reference. How you choose to apply it or do further reading is up to you.

        Thanks!

        • http://boblivingstonpl.wordpress.com Bob Livingston

          Dear CPA,

          You write: “You may have missed it, but if you take another look at Gen 12, the chapter is God addressing Abraham… and the blessing God is granting to him not just to Abraham (or Abram at this point) himself but to the future nation God is promising him to turn the offspring decedents of Abraham into -> this becomes the nation of lsrael.” I missed nothing. This is indeed the promise to Abraham. However the Israelites forfeited their inheritance by playing the harlot with false gods. They were taken into captivity: Israel in 722 A.D.; Judah in 584.

          Nehemiah 1: 7-8 (NASB)
          7 We have acted very corruptly against You and have not kept the commandments, nor the statutes, nor the ordinances which You commanded Your servant Moses. 8 Remember the word which You commanded Your servant Moses, saying, ‘If you are unfaithful I will scatter you among the peoples;

          Hosea 8 (NASB)
          8 Israel is swallowed up;
          They are now among the nations
          Like a vessel in which no one delights.
          9 For they have gone up to Assyria,
          Like a wild donkey all alone;
          Ephraim has hired [g]lovers.
          10 Even though they hire allies among the nations,
          Now I will gather them up;
          And they will begin to [h]diminish
          Because of the burden of the king of princes.
          11 Since Ephraim has multiplied altars for sin,
          They have become altars of sinning for him.
          12 Though I wrote for him ten thousand precepts of My law,
          They are regarded as a strange thing.
          13 As for My sacrificial gifts,
          They sacrifice the flesh and eat it,
          But the LORD has taken no delight in them.
          Now He will remember their iniquity,
          And punish them for their sins;
          They will return to Egypt.
          14 For Israel has forgotten his Maker and built palaces;
          And Judah has multiplied fortified cities,
          But I will send a fire on its cities that it may consume its palatial dwellings. (NASB)

          The Jews had one more chance. But they rejected The Christ. Their ending as God’s chosen people was finalized with the destruction of the Temple in 70 A.D. Read Hebrews 8 which shows that Christians are the spiritual descendants of Abraham. Christ’s kingdom is a spiritual one, not a physical one. There is no basis for belief in another physical nation of Israel with Christ at its head.

          Best wishes,
          Bob

          • cpa

            Bob, Hebrews 8 is still a covenant with Israel / Jewish nation not the “church” of the gentiles.

            “The time is coming, declares the Lord, when I will make a new covenant WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL and WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH…” Hebrews 8:7-8. God then goes on to explain this new covenant with his people (Israel).

            Yes, you are correct, Israel sinned and turned against God and was punished by God. This is part of why Israel was scattered to the nations. But at no time does God renig on his prophecy or promise to the Jewish people and replace it with the gentile church soley. Rather, the gentile church is allowed to come along side and join in following Jesus (not replace). Jews are the “legitimate children” of God and gentile believers are the “adopted children”. Both are granted an inheritance. Neither are excluded. It is through the sin of Israel that the opportunity was granted to gentile believers (non Jews) of Jesus Christ the Jewish Messiah who was then made available to anyone from any background to follow and accept the life He offers. This gift is not excluded to anyone who wants it from any nationality or past belief system.

            Please note that yet to come (in the future), it is still the Jews who Jesus Christ calls to lead with him out of Israel and why Jerusalem is so important to Christians, Jews, and Muslims alike:

            “Then I saw another angel coming up from the east, having the seal of the living God. He called out in a loud voice to the four angels who had been given power to harm the land and the sea: “Do not harm the land or the sea or the trees until we put a seal on the foreheads of the servants of our God.” Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel.” Revelation 7:1-8

            God then goes on to specify 12,000 from each Israeli tribe (Judah, Reuben, Gad, Asher, Naphtali, Manasseh, Simeon, Levi, Issachar, Zebulun, Joseph, Benjamin). This is very specific on lineage and there is no getting around these 144,000 being Jewish or trying to place yourself as a replacement if you are not Jewish.

            Following this:
            “After this I looked and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from EVERY NATION, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and in front of the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands. And they cried out in a loud voice: “Salvation belongs to our God, who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb.” Revelation 7:9-10

            This is leading up to the reign of Christ from Jerusalem where he will reign for 1.000 years (Rev 20). And also prophesied in the old testament as follows:

            “Therefore, this is what the Lord says: “I will return to Jerusalem with mercy and there my house will be rebuilt. And the measuring line will be stretched out over Jerusalem,” declares the Lord Almighty. Proclaim further: This is what the Lord Almighty says, “My towns will again overflow with prosperity, and the Lord will again comfort Zion and CHOOSE JERUSALEM.” (Zechariah 1: 16-17)

            You see Bob, God still holds a chosen or special place for the Jews as they get 12,000 from each tribe specifically. Christians also come to JOIN them NOT REPLACE them as is specified in the very next paragraph as a great multitude from every nation following Jesus Christ is also drawn together at this time. This is a coming together of both Jews and Christians and has yet to be fulfilled at the second coming of Christ. We are all in this together. This is an inclusive group and result and not an exclusive one. If you do not fit into the chosen Jewish 144,000 group, there is still the second group, the group added, of others who choose to follow Jesus Christ and partake in the inheritance and gift Jesus offers.

            The Jews are never forgotten or replaced by any religion involving Jesus Christ and the Bible.

            You can believe or not believe the Bible and that is fine. You can even come up with different interpretations if you like (that is your choice). But if you do believe in the Bible and follow the teachings of Jesus Christ, you cannot exclude the Jews.

          • http://boblivingstonpl.wordpress.com Bob Livingston

            Dear cpa,

            You do not understand the spiritual nature of God’s kingdom.

            You misread the Revelation of John.

            Best wishes,
            Bob

      • Nadzieja Batki

        Because Abraham existed it was as if Israel existed.

      • cpa

        Bob,

        I see my response to you is “awaiting moderation”. Does this mean you will not post my response to your question as answered?

      • cpa

        Bob – thank you for now posting.

        Cheers

      • cpa

        Bob, then please educate me. Is there a way to say the 144,000 from each of the 12 tribes of Israel are not Jewish? Is there a way you have found to replace yourself in their overtly stated Jewish position?

        Even if you go with “these mean modern day churches” route – how does that lead back to the 12 tribes of Israel as stated in scripture? I don’t see the connection between many tribes of Israel and modern day Christian Churches or other replacement theology interpretations.

        Please show me the Bible scripture and reference (as you have previously requested of your other posters) for your position if you want to use the Bible to actually prove your points. Otherwise, we are just taking about our opinions and interpretations – which is also fine but let’s call it that then.

        Or, if you prefer, we can agree to disagree here on interpretation which is OK by me. Thank you for asking the question that lead to putting Biblical references out there on a topic such as this. I otherwise would likely not have posted this based only on the arguments of your article had you not asked to go deeper into religion. Regardless of how you feel on conclusion, it may be helpful to another viewer.

        Thanks!

        • http://boblivingstonpl.wordpress.com Bob Livingston

          Dear cpa,

          Here is a short, but not doubt, insufficient answer. It’s brevity is necessitated in the interest of time. However I will post a link below for further study.

          I do not subscribe to the premillennialist view of Revelation. The 144,000 and the 12 tribes in Chap. 7 are not literal. 144,000 is symbolic of Christ’s Church, established on the day of Pentecost (Acts 2). Israel is an established name for God’s people. The name literally means “he who prevailed with God.” The church is the new Jerusalem. The 144,000 are mentioned again in Rev. 14:1–5, where they are described as virgins and said to be those redeemed from mankind as first fruits for God and the Lamb. Does this description from Chapter 14 help us here with the 144,000 in Chapter 7? Yes. In 2 Corinthians 11:2 Paul said he wanted to present the Corinthian church as a chaste virgin to Christ. James 1:18 says that we are “a kind of first fruits of his creatures.” The church is comprised of those who have been redeemed from mankind. The church is sealed with the name of God and the Lamb. (Revelation 3:12.) The descriptions of the 144,000 in Chapter 7 and Chapter 14 confirm that the number 144,000 denotes the church.

          For more go here: http://www.revelationexplained.net/index.html

          Best wishes,
          Bob

          • cpa

            Bob, then we will need to agree to disagree my brother. Replacement theology is not a new idea to me and I have looked at this quite thoroughly – only I reach a different conclusion.

            I would say the 144,000 are in fact Jewish and from the 12 tribes of Israel just as the Bible states. (If this were in fact the entire modern day church, this number would be far greater than 144,000, it just doesn’t make sense to substitute that way – and you don’t need to). Also what you said is true about the church being offered up as a bride to Christ. I would say that these are the group mentioned right behind the 12 tribes of Israel being the great multitude from every nation believing in Christ Jesus. One does not need to exclude the other. If either group feels the need to exclude the other, they may want to self examine “why” that might be. Jesus Christ never excluded anyone based on race or any other ethnic testing. He is wide open to any and all who may choose to come to him.

            I enjoy your e-mails and our conversation.

            Best and cheers

          • http://boblivingstonpl.wordpress.com Bob Livingston

            Dear cpa,

            You write: “I would say the 144,000 are in fact Jewish and from the 12 tribes of Israel just as the Bible states.” Then please explain for me, in light of Matthew 10:32-33: “32 “Therefore everyone who confesses Me before men, I will also confess him before My Father who is in heaven. 33 But whoever denies Me before men, I will also deny him before My Father who is in heaven.” how these 144,000 are going to be accepted into Heaven after having denied Jesus. Also consider Romans 10.

            Please explain why 144,000 is a set number, and why God would exclude number 144,001 if he’s making exceptions in light of the verses cited.

            Best wishes,
            Bob

      • cpa

        Bob, I never said they “denied Christ”.

        Has it ever occurred to you that someone of Jewish birth may accept Jesus Christ?

        There is such as thing as Messianic Judaism – which is Jewish believers who follow old testament law and also Jesus Christ. They do believe in Jesus Christ as salvation the same as your Christians do.

        • http://boblivingstonpl.wordpress.com Bob Livingston

          Dear cpa,

          Then you still have a conundrum. Why is God only going to accept 144,000 Jews who proclaimed Christ? Surely more than 144,000 have.

          Best wishes,
          Bob

          P.S. you did not explain the set number of 144,000, if it is indeed a set number rather than a symbolic one.

          • cpa

            Bob, you ask a great question and one that no one can provide an absolute answer to because it has yet to take place. We are talking about a future event here and I cannot tell the future for you. There are multiple theories based on this question and others out of Revelation.

            One theory (or interpretation) of this question is that the 144,000 is in fact an actual number limited to that number (12,000 chosen to represent each Jewish tribe). But this is not a number of those who will enter heaven (as you are correct – this number will be much higher). This is instead a number of those who will reign with Christ from Jerusalem here on earth first. Many more will actually enter heaven (being saved by Grace via Jesus Christ). Those who believe in the Millennium would say that there are 2 harvests or 2 raptures. The first – when the 144,000 are sealed and chosen to reign with Christ for 1,000 years here on earth from Jerusalem. The number is an actual number limited to those who “qualify”. Qualification for the Millennium is works based (note this is different than salvation which is grace based and for entering heaven). There are greater rewards for this group who will endure greater hardship in the tribulation time period before the return of Christ. Not everyone will be present for this or be brought to any judgement over this. So by saying – what about number 144,001 – this is not saying that the next one is not allowed into heaven or somehow excluded for purposes of salvation. But the set number who will enter into the millennium is limited and must be qualified for and no, not everyone will make it. (So not everyone experiences the Millennium time period).

            The second harvest is the grace based salvation relying on Jesus Christ. This is a much larger group available to any and all who believe in Jesus Christ for salvation. This is the final judgement when all people will be judged and either go to Hell or Heaven. This will involve all people who ever lived in any time period for final judgement and takes place as this world as we know it ends. The requirement to pass this judgement is acceptance of Jesus Christ as savior only and his grace only (no works will get you there). Jesus said, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.” (John 14:6) Most Christians will tell you about the second harvest or the way to be “saved” is by accepting the grace Jesus Christ offers you to offer his blood in exchange for yours – to be “saved”. This is entrance into heaven or hell. (Everyone will go through this judgement).

            It is relatively recent history churches quit teaching Millennium based or any works based doctrine in favor of the grace only approach. They are correct in that the only salvation is through Jesus and grace (not works). But there are additional aspects of Christianity that do involve works (not for salvation but for other rewards and privileges such as inclusion in the Millennium and other rewards once entrance into Heaven is achieved and even closeness with God and blessings while here on earth in our regular life times. Our time in Heaven does not look to be “equal” and is not socialism or communism. Getting in the door is not the only thing we should be looking at (all be it a very important first step!). As which place we choose to spend eternity – there is no bigger decision to be made in one’s life. But there is more to it than just “getting there”.

            Like I said, we’re getting into some pretty heavy and well debated doctrine issues here now. I do not expect we will find agreement necessarily. There are many differing views of what Revelation and the end of the world will really look like – not one of us can tell you with absolute certainty what this will be or when. We only have Revelation, which can be interpreted in multiple ways. Good luck with yours and the path you may choose to follow on it’s many interpretations.

    • DaveH

      Okay, this is going to raise some major hackles, but sometimes our path to greater knowledge is a little bumpy:
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=88GTUXvp-50

  • Carl

    Bob Livingston asks, “Would a friend do these things?” No. A friend would turn his back; walk away; and, from a safe distance, listen to the cries for help as his friend is brutalized and slaughtered.

  • Frank From PA

    <>

    Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.

    • Nadzieja Batki

      Care to give the time line of this occurring. Don’t throw dung and hope it sticks to someone.

  • http://none ron

    The israelies are NOT an ALLY of the U.S.
    They continually refuse to sign an allied agreement with the U.S as many other countries have done.
    The last six presidents have all tried to get israel to sign an allied agreement with the U.S.
    Israel has refused every time.
    Look it up !!!!!

    • Marten The Canadian Libertarian

      Can you spell Jerusalem……Jer”USA”lem…coincidence???????

    • http://shavelman.wordpress.com shavelman

      I’ve never heard of and can’t find anything on “Allied Agreement”. Please post a link. Sounds bogus to me.

  • Karolyn

    The Bible should notevev be a reference point in this discussion.

    • Karolyn

      “not even”

    • Nadzieja Batki

      Why not?
      Are you afraid or superstitious of the book? So according to you no one must read it, study it, or comment from it because you say so.

      • Karolyn

        I just do not view it as a historical document, so it has no bearing on how countries should conduct themselves in today’s world. You obviously view Israel as infallible and above reproach, which I believe to be a total mistake.

      • cpa

        Karolyn, Interesting. Most say that they don’t want a religious doctrine or “God” to be brought in and do not view the Bible as “God breathed” or some sort of “higher law” to be followed but rather as only a historical document. You’re now making the argument that it is not even a “historical document”?

        But I am with you. We can have a good discussion about this topic of modern day USA and Israel and whether our support should be with them or not without the Bible.

        The Bible got brought in because Bob, the author of the article, specifically requested support from the Bible to be referenced.

        And also because, regardless of what you or others may believe or not believe, the issue of Israel and others in the middle east has a large religious aspect to it that cannot be ignored in any discussion of peace or alliances etc for the area involving Jerusalem and Israel. The religious aspects of Christians, Islam, Judaism, etc are all major players here. And as much as America may like to keep things to a “secular only” discussion, the religious beliefs will always enter in on this topic and are important because they are important to large groups of people involved in the conflict.

  • Deny

    In my humble oppinion I think we should save our money, tell all the countries and the groups over there in the mid east that like to bomb and kill, that Isreal is our friend and if you mess with us or our friends we will level you and then do it. Im not talking nuks either I mean just bomb the (expletive deleted) out of the whole (expletive deleted) place. I know that innocents will be killed but if we keep going year after year then look at all the innocents that are killed lets just be done with it.

    • CHARLES RANDALL

      Deny, what’s the problem with killing “innocents’?? God did it in Egypt and also in the great flood! Dead babies every where!!

  • dunce

    Mossad provides our only reliable human intelligence in the near east and that has been the case for at least 30 years. We have been relying on electronic intel almost exclusively, we have very few working in the state dept. or any of the other agencies that are fluent in arabic or farsi. Most intercepts are never translated and when they are, it is not in a timely manner.

  • Abe

    Sorry to see you demonize America’s most dependable ally in the UN, in all technologies, the Cold War and the War on Terror. I thought I was reading Farrakhan for a moment.

  • chester

    To all who are interested, North Korea HAS tested atomic weapons, and appears to have the capability to build them in launchable size. So far, the only thing they are missing is a dependable method for getting them from point A to point B, and the first point B would probably be Seoul, South Korea. The thinking being that if you take out the capitol, you can pretty much do as you please with the rest of the country. Iran already HAS the delivery tool, but so far is lacking the proper warhead to do a total wipe on Israel.

  • Ignacio Barahona

    All of you guys are very smart and your opinions are very interesting and deserve to be considered. I preffer to trust in the old prophesies, I only ask you to consider these verses on the Bible:
    Jeremiah 16:14-15
    14 “However, the days are coming,” declares the Lord, “when it will no longer be said, ‘As surely as the Lord lives, who brought the Israelites up out of Egypt,’ 15 but it will be said, ‘As surely as the Lord lives, who brought the Israelites up out of the land of the north and out of all the countries where he had banished them.’ For I will restore them to the land I gave their ancestors.”
    This prophesy is fulfilling right now it only fault some pieces of lands!!!!!!!!!, and this will happen with the help of U.S. or not, the question is not if it will happen but when will finish?

  • http://gravatar.com/bychoosing Jay

    Preachers like John Hagee and the free-will, Pro-Israel church people have been duped by their pastors and radio preachers to believe that the Jews are God’s “chosen people.”
    That term was started by a Presbyterian Laymen in 1956 (Read Prophecy and Politics by Grace Halsell) and it is not a biblical statement or fact.

    The problem is that if someone opposes a Jew on anything whether they are saved or not, is labeled Anti-Semitic and quite frankly I am sick of seeing doltish Christians defend the enemies of Christ (and all unsaved are) against other Christians.

    The greatest source of lies and deceit are found in prophecy books written by preachers who are so entwined with Zionist politics and the Zionist Lobby that they have completely lost their ability to discern truth. Yet, Christians buy these Hollywood-style scripts by the millions and then interpret the Bible according to them.

    What is a Political Semite?

    The political definition of a Semite is one who is a member of any of a number of peoples of ancient southwestern Asia including the Akkadians, Phoenicians, Hebrews, and Arabs. It is one who is a descendant of these people. They are a member of a modern people speaking a Semitic language.

    Did you notice the number of groups? Four not One! These four groups make up the Semitic peoples of the earth. I have already checked the following out in two dictionaries.

    The term Anti-Semitic is used only of those who dislike or hate Jews, or as a weapon against whoever the Jews don’t like. Hey, wait a minute, there are four groups who are considered Semitic.

    If I hate the Arabs it is not Anti-Semitism but if I hate the Jews it is?

    Someone is selling the literary world a bill of goods in the dictionaries. If the Semitic people are comprised of four groups, then any hate toward any group needs to be classified as Anti-Semitism.

    Therefore, if the Jews hate the Arabs, then they are being Anti-Semitic, if the Phoenicians hate the Akkadians, it is Anti-Semitism. Eclectic definitions of Anti-Semitism must not be tolerated in favor of one race. It is obvious then that the term Anti-Semitism has been fostered on the non-thinking public as only alluding to the Jews which makes the modern definition a well-planned deception.

    The other well-planned deception is that if you oppose Israel, you oppose God.

    Nothing could be further from the truth. Hebrews 1:1-2 says that in the last days God spoke to us through His Son, not the nation of Israel.

    Mention the name of Jesus Christ in Israel and you will get arrested or killed. Any Christian who supports Israel is supporting the enemies of Christ, whether by ignorance or not.

    I am not calling for the elimination of Israel, perish the thought because there are many of God’s elect in Israel but that nation should not be looked upon as special in God’s sight because nowhere in the Bible is it set apart as a special nation in the latter days (post-ascension era).

    God is dealing with His elect, the Israel of God, throughout the whole world and no longer with one nation as He did in the pre-Bethlehem days. His eyes are on the church, the TRUE ISRAEL OF GOD.

    http://www.scionofzion.com/anti-semitic.htm

    • cpa

      Jay,

      What you are describing is called “Replacement Theology”. And it is alive and well in the modern day church today in America and our history. It is also what I referred to in an earlier post about the Church’s role in anti-semitism, terrorism, and persecution of the Jews done by the early and current day Christian church.

      For anyone interested, there is some good information on the history of this theology and arguments against and for it here:

      http://www.therefinersfire.org/replacement_theology.htm

      I understand your point of view and hear it in America frequently. However, I would encourage you to take a look at the history of what took place, how it deviated or changed from from formation and over time, and why. You can decide what you feel is right after taking a look. I always like to see anyone take a look at who their founders were and why they made the changes they did before they go “all in” whether they be followers of Mohammad (Islam), Hinduism, Buddism, Christianity (using the old and new testament), Christianity (using the new testament only), Mormanism, 7th day, Judiasm, etc. whatever.

      Always look at your leaders and their history and why they made the changes they did before you jump in. Anytime someone deviates from Jesus (which a lot of religions claim as their founder or someone significant in their belief system) they usually have a “human” reason.

      And in case you are wondering, Replacement Theology’s founder is NOT Jesus. Jesus was a Jew who adhered to the Old Testament law through his death. That is the same for Paul, Peter, all the disciples & writers of the New Testament, and the Jewish founders of the Acts church / early church. It was later the Gentiles changed this – look at why.

  • chris

    All countries are spying on us…even all of our allies… but we are spying on all of them too. I know this from experience. I’m not saying I like it, I’m just saying this isn’t new, and it’s not just them.

  • James 4 Truth

    It’s extremely unfortunate that our own government and the controlled media who they are in bed with us lie to us about 9-11. What a different world we would have now if we had been told the truth from the git go: ISRAEL (along with her Zionist friends and agents in the U.S. including those in the U.S. government) DID 9-11. It sure as hell wasn’t Osama and his gang of 20 or whatever. Google ISRAEL DID 9-11 or go to http://www.bollyn.com. for the truth which Israel and her right wing Zionist agents in the U.S. don’t want you to know. Or you can push the snooze button and go back to sleep thinking it was just the C.I.A. and other assorted folks in the U.S. alone who did it or worse yet go back into a coma believing the official govt. version of 9-11. Just remember that 9-11 was the day that the U.S. should have declared war on Israel rather than start some bogus “war on terrorism.”

  • http://shavelman.wordpress.com shavelman

    The only live Truther I met was schizophrenic.They have medicine for that today. Maybe Obamacare will cover it.

  • http://shavelman.wordpress.com shavelman

    They should really delete Truthers. It’s just encouraging their fantasies to let them spew. Usually Truthers are left wing but I guess not always.

    • James 4 Truth

      Three separate replies to my one comment. You really went nuts shavelman. You act like a Zionist troll, and there are many of them, who try to distract the public from the truth by simplistic name calling. From your attacks on my one comment I assume you are one of those who want us to believe in the U.S. government fairy tale version of 9-11.

      • http://shavelman.wordpress.com shavelman

        There is no event in history which has been recorded on video or documented more then 911. No event which has had as many direct witnesses. There is no one I know that hasn’t been affected or damaged by those events. There is plenty of blame for being unprepared for 911 but there is no doubt what happened on that day. I’ve read all the truther testimonials and I’ve read the rebuttals. We were attacked by Al Qaeda plain and simple.

      • Vigilant

        shavelman, you’re posting on a site that’s filled with 9-11 conspiracy theorists, including Bob Livingston.

        You are, of course, right, but it’s similar to the Holocaust deniers who believe what they believe in spite of all facts, logic, photo and other documentation. Don’t try arguing with them, they are “true believers.”

  • Ann

    When I think of how America could be helped in these times of hardship,( caused by our political and Banking system ). By stopping all funding to Israel, and using all of it to put the people and the country back on track, thus showing the public, that their country and government, does put them first.. .Charity begins at home, Israel believes this, why don’t we?

    • http://shavelman.wordpress.com shavelman

      Halting all foreign aid including Israel would be fine because when we give aid to Israel and aid to Israels enemies what have we accomplished? The aid to Egypt was mostly stolen and the aid to Israel at least buys US weapons, Improves our intelligence and technology. At least that’s my opinion.

    • Vigilant

      Ann says, “By stopping all funding to Israel, and using all of it to put the people and the country back on track…”

      Get real. $3 billion a year won’t help anything. It’s a drop in the bucket.

      • Ann

        Vigilant, It might be a good idea to check your facts regarding money to Israel…..

      • Vigilant

        Ditto to you, Ann. You cannot link to any source that says differently. The average has been below $3 billion.

      • Vigilant

        For that matter, foreign aid to ALL nations is a drop in the bucket.

  • Jack Pot

    Ann, get real. Why stop with Israel? We fund everyone around the world. we even loaned Brazil $1B to drill for oil in the Carribean using Chinese labor. Why are you singling out our only consistant ally in the Middle East? Are you misinformed, willfully ignorant or just plain predjudiced?

    • Vigilant

      All of the above.

  • Roundup_Logan

    The Daughter Babylon will turn its back on Israel when it’s attacked ushering in the end of times. Look at historical events. Every time America puts pressure on Israel to divide up its “land for peace” God sends a pretty strong message to us that he doesn’t approve. HE gave that land to Israel as an inheritance and will curse anyone who wants to divide it up. The current economic crisis we’re in was ushered in by Bush trying to do that. The fall on Wall Street happened the same day Bush was going to announce a strategic initiative for Israel and Palistinian peace talks. Bad events happened to Clinton, daddy Bush, George W, and Obama too. Genesis tells us that God will bless those who bless Israel, and curse those that curse Israel. I believe I’d prefer to be on the blessing side. But, it will happen – America will turn its back on Israel when Iran, Russia, Syria, Turkey – all the nut-job nations of Islam invade Israel. We’ll just sit and watch. Then immediately following, America will be destroyed. Just read Daniel, Ezekial, Isaiah, Revelations, Joel. It’s all there. Even the current increase of Jewish persecution is written about. Jesus said that when the nation of Israel is re-established, that generation would see the coming of the end of times. Go ahead and laugh non-believers, but the time is coming, just wait and see. He means what he says and says what he means. Historically it’s a proven fact. The day after Israel declared state hood in 1948, Egypt and some of the Muslim nations invaded her. Israel was able to repel them even though they were outnumbered and outgunned almost 100 to 1. Obama is just making it easier for the beast to make his appearance. For those that read and believe, no explanation is necessary, for those that don’t, no explanation would be helpful. War is coming in the middle east, and we’ll tuck our tail and sit back and watch. Then God will raise his hand against Daughter Babylon – the hammer of the world – and destroy us in a flash or as the bible says, in an hour, in a moment. As nukes get proliferated, and our borders stay wide open, there’s nothing to stop terrorists from detonating nukes in Washington DC, New York, Chicago, Houston, Los Angeles, – and immediately following that, all the non-believers will look to Darwin and his monkey theory and think, “hmmmm, maybe he was wrong and there is something to this whole God thing”. We better quit our dabling with God’s chosen people, stand firm in our commitment to them, honor our military treaty with them (which by the way, we’re the ONLY nation on earth that says we’ll act to defend them – and God has made us the most powerful nation on earth too by the way) and assist them however we can. They are totally surrounded now by Islamic nations hell-bent on destroying them. There is not one single friendly nation on their borders. They are truely isolated. The only thing between Israel and total anihalation is God and the United States. So far we’ve been on the winning team. Remove our name from that list and it puts us on the wrong side of God. I’d rather give Israel $100 billion in aid than give the dead beats in this country who are on welfare and getting buck teeth from sucking on the teet of taxpayers one more single dime. That includes dead beat public sector workers who just have to show up for work to get a paycheck. I’m no nut-job conspiracy theorist, nor a apocalyptic yeller, just someone who watches, believes, and reads the truth as written in the Bible. I stand firm in my belief that Israel is God’s chosen people and support them. Everyone else should make up their mind which side of righteousness they’re on, for the day is coming.

  • 4204life

    Wow, I am always astonished when I read comments that attack someone with the courage to reveal truth about Zionism. Plain and simple, those that say they are Jews but are worshippers of the Synagogue of Satan. This does NOT mean all people of the Jewish faith. They are used as a shield to deflect critisism just as Freemasonry is a front to infiltrate and subvert public opinion towards the higher degrees ultimate goal of Totalitarian Hell. I have in the past also been critical of anyone who offered a different opinion other than the ones that were social engineered into my brain. Since, I have vaporized the (P)erception (C)ontrol (P)ukes stranglehold and have turned my brain on and seek knowledge before it is outlawed. “In a time of universal deceit, to tell the truth is a revolutionary act.”

  • Pingback: Lots of Good, Cheerful News to Start the Week! » Scott Lazarowitz's Blog

    • http://SeekerofTruth Tom Hohman

      Seeker of Truth says:

      Thank you CPA for clearly identifying “Replacement Theology”, which is the real root issue with Bob’s original msg and many of the other reponses. Your scholarly,gentle but biblical responses were an inspiration. Jesus not only was a Jew but HE is a Jew. Heb.13:8 ” Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever.”
      Replacement Theology (RT) is thoroughly unbiblical, as any reading of Romans 9-11 will clearly prove . It is so difficult to discuss a view of RT however when Bob and others present a view based on spiritualization of Scripture, a denial of what the Scriptures plainly state. It’s disappointing, sad and deadly to the Body when one sees it masked as anti-Semitism.

      Press On!

  • Larry

    We should always stand by Israel for one very importasnt reason. God said “I will bless those who bless you and I will curse those who curse you”. That is good enough for me. Gos bless the USA.

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