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Obamacare’s Real Costs

November 19, 2012 by  

Obamacare’s Real Costs
PHOTOS.COM

“The Obama Care Health Care Reform Plan or Health Care For America Plan will cost the average American around $70.”–obamacarefacts.com

First of all, allow me to disabuse you of the notion that Obamacare has anything to do with “health” care. Obamacare is not about health. It’s not about lowering the cost of health insurance. And it’s not about ensuring that everyone is insured.

It is about locking more Americans into the clutches of the Big Pharma/Medical Industrial complex, providing more customers for Big Insurance and confiscating more wealth from individuals and businesses.

The American healthcare system should properly be called “sickcare.” It’s a subtle and esoteric system of population control with prescription drugs issued at the public expense by the drug cartel — the conglomerate of pharmaceutical houses.

They commit population control under the pretense of “healthcare” and make people pay for it. And this medical cartel has no legal liability. It is forced — or at least deceptive — medication. And most doctors don’t have a clue. They write prescriptions based on falsified data and kickbacks — from speaker fees and ghostwriting glowing medical reviews — without regard to whether their patients will benefit.

Health costs nothing. Sickness care has us in bankruptcy. If the medical establishment, insurance companies and Obamacare writers wanted Americans to be healthy, they’d promote healthy eating, healthy lifestyles, vitamin D supplementation, natural supplements and alternative health choices rather than toxin-laden vaccinations, body-destroying cancer treatment drugs, harmful symptom-rather-than-cause-attacking heart, statin and diabetes drugs, and carcinogen- and GMO-laced processed foods.

Now Obamacare’s devastating financial effects are coming to the fore. They can be seen in the rising costs of health insurance, layoffs, cuts in employment hours, rising prices and looming tax hikes. Obamacare will send unemployment numbers skyrocketing and force workers — who find their hours cut back below the “full-time” threshold of 30 hours — to try to find multiple part-time jobs to make ends meet. Or they’ll give up working altogether and join the rising numbers of wards of the state: 49.7 million in poverty, non-farm employment at 2005 levels, 46.7 million on food stamps and 9 million leaving the workforce and joining the disability roles. The Congressional Budget Office predicts Obamacare will cost 800,000 jobs by 2020-2021. It will be much worse than that.

With jobless numbers already high and manufacturing and mid-level white collar professional service jobs leaving the United States never to return, most new jobs come in the healthcare, social assistance (ambulatory healthcare services) and food service industries (waiting tables and tending bar).

But the medical device and food service industries are being hit hardest by Obamacare, as business owners seek ways to remain profitable and competitive once the provisions kick in.

During the International Franchise Association convention in Washington, D.C., in September, franchisers learned just how hard Obamacare would hit them. David Barr, a Taco Bell and Kentucky Fried Chicken franchiser, told the group how Obamacare will cut his profits and probably theirs as well — in half. Their only choice is to slash employee hours so they aren’t eligible for company-paid health insurance or stop offering insurance and pay the $2,000 per employee fine.

Barr has 23 stores with 421 employees, 109 of whom are full-time. Of those, he provides health insurance to 30. His total cost is $129,000 per year and his employees pay $995. Under Obamacare, he’ll have to provide health insurance for all 109 full-time employees at a cost of $444,000 per year. The $315,000 increase is more than half his annual profit, after expenses. If he chose the fine instead, his healthcare costs would still increase by $89,000 per year.

Darden Foods, the world’s largest casual dining company — it includes Olive Garden, Red Lobster and LongHorn Steakhouse — was one of the first to announce it would be limiting worker hours to avoid healthcare requirements. Papa John’s CEO John Schnatter said the cost of his pizzas will rise between 11 and 14 cents and worker hours will be reduced. He expects the law to cost his company between $5 million and $8 million annually.

In July, McDonalds Chief Financial Officer Peter Benson said Obamacare will cost his company $420 million in new healthcare costs even though the company received a waiver from the Administration of Barack Obama. His menu prices will increase as a result.

Florida-based restaurant owner John Metz, who owns 40 Denny’s restaurants and the Hurricane Grill & Wings franchise, said last week he would be tacking a 5 percent Obamacare surcharge on his meals and reduce employee hours. He says it is “the only alternative. I’ve got to pass the cost to the customer.”

Look for other restaurants faced with a choice of becoming unprofitable by absorbing the costs or uncompetitive by raising their menu prices if they insure their employees and pass the cost to consumers to also cut worker hours.

Wal-Mart recently raised its health insurance premiums as much as 36 percent, putting coverage out of the reach of many of its employees. Its executives say employee hours will be cut. Likewise, the Kroger grocery chain is also reducing employee hours.

Other companies that have announced Obamacare layoffs include:

  • Welch Allyn: A medical diagnostic equipment manufacturer, Welch Allyn will lay off 250 employees, or 10 percent of its workforce, over the next three years because of the Medical Device Tax mandated by the law.
  • Dana Holding Corp.: A global auto parts manufacturer, Dana Holding Corp. will cut its workforce of 25,500, citing $24 million in additional healthcare expenses over the next six years.
  • Stryker: One of the biggest medical device manufacturers in the world, Stryker will close its Orchard Park, N.Y., facility, eliminating 96 jobs in December. The company will also eliminate about 5 percent of its remaining workforce — about 1,170 workers.
  • Boston Scientific: CEO Ray Elliot recently announced that Obamacare taxes will force him to lay off between 1,200 and 1,400 workers and shift investments and jobs to China.
  • Medtronic: The medical device maker cut 500 jobs this past summer and will eliminate another 500 in 2013 because of Obamacare taxes.
  • Smith & Nephew: 770 layoffs.
  • Abbott Laboratories: 700 layoffs.
  • Covidien: 595 layoffs.
  • Kinetic Concepts: 427 layoffs.
  • St. Jude Medical: 300 layoffs.
  • Hill-Rom: 200 layoffs.

And then there are the looming taxes.

The undocumented alien and chronic White House liar (see the ever changing Benghazi narrative, among others) has repeated ad nauseam that he will not raise taxes on those making less than $250,000 ($125,000 or $200,000 or whatever his story is today). But here are some Obamacare taxes kicking in beginning in 2013, most of which will hit both the so-called “rich” and the poor either directly or indirectly.

  • The Obamacare Medical Device Tax is a $20 billion tax increase. Obamacare imposes a new 2.3 percent excise tax on gross sales — whether the company makes a profit or not. This will increase the cost of medical devices like pacemakers, prosthetics and wheelchairs.
  • The Obamacare “Special Needs Kids Tax” is a $13 billion tax increase. It hits the 30 million to 35 million Americans using a work-based Flexible Spending Account (FSA) to pay for basic medical needs by having money removed from their paychecks before taxes, which reduces their taxable income and helps them save on their tax bill. It faces a new cap of $2,500 (currently the accounts have no cap). There are 7 million families in American with special needs children who need care that far exceeds the $2,500, many of them the working poor.
  • The Obamacare Surtax on Investment Income is a $123 billion tax increase. This is a new 3.8 percentage point surtax on investment income earned in households making $250,000 or more ($200,000 for single filer). This will increase the tax on capital gains from 15 percent to 23.8 percent. Capital gains include profits on the sale of a home. In other words, when you sell your house for more than you paid for it, which all homeowners hope to do, you will pay 23.8 percent on the value difference when you sell. It also includes gains made on savings and retirement accounts. The rate paid on dividend income increases from 15 percent to 43.3 percent, as does the rate on other investment income.
  • The Obamacare “Haircut” for Medical Itemized Deductions is a $15.2 billion tax increase. Currently, Americans facing high medical expenses are allowed a deduction if expenses exceed 7.5 percent of adjusted gross income. The “haircut” raises the threshold to 10 percent. This will most harm those near retirement age and those with modest incomes but high medical bills — like those with special needs children or dealing with catastrophic illness.
  • The Obamacare Payroll Tax Hike is $86.8 billion tax increase. The Medicare payroll tax rate on individuals earning $200,000 ($250,000 for couples) will see their payroll tax increase from 2.9 percent to 3.8 percent. This is a direct marginal income tax hike on small-business owners, who are liable for self-employment tax.

And even more Obamacare taxes kick hit in 2014.

The bottom line for the average family, according to Forbes.com, is an additional annual cost of $1,261 for the average family, or a diversion of 2.5 percent of the average household’s income in taxes alone. And this doesn’t factor in the additional costs resulting from rising food and product costs and loss of income due to worker hour reductions and job losses.

Obamacare sycophants glommed on to the progressive, government-growing, insurance industry-profiting healthcare reform effort largely because they believed Big Insurance was screwing them over by raising premiums and not paying for certain conditions. Yet those hated insurance companies wrote the law and made sure that those who disdained health insurance — either because they were young and felt they didn’t need it or were financially able to go without it — were forced into the plan, ensuring Big Insurance a whole host of new customers, guaranteeing themselves a large profit and a government treasury to make sure the bills were paid. And those sycophants are just delighted with that outcome.

But if they thought they were drawing the short straw when corporate profits were on the line, wait until they see what they get now that the sociopaths in the dysfunctional government bureaucracy are involved.

_____________________________________________________________________

Updated to accurately reflect that Schattner expects Obamacare to cost his company between $5 million and $8 million annually, not $5 billion and $8 billion as first reported. We regret the error.

Bob Livingston

is an ultra-conservative American and author of The Bob Livingston Letter™, founded in 1969. Bob has devoted much of his life to research and the quest for truth on a variety of subjects. Bob specializes in health issues such as nutritional supplements and alternatives to drugs, as well as issues of privacy (both personal and financial), asset protection and the preservation of freedom.

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  • independant thinker

    Good article Mr Livingston.

    • Flashy

      Whoa there Mr. Livingston. Let’s make sure we have some of the facts straight.

      The proportion of health insurance premiums paid by workers has risen 131 percent since 2001, according to a report by the national Health Institute, the 9% increase this past year is one of the slowest cost increases in the past 30 years. Most of the increase is attributed to overreaction by the health insurers. Note that this 9% figure was put forth before the insurers remitted to policy holders rebate checks to conform to the 70% limit of premiums to direct coverage. In other words the law has caused only about a 1 percent to 3 percent increase in premiums, according to several independent experts. The rest of the 9 percent rise is due to rising health care costs, as usual. And those costs rose at a lower rate than recent history. The growth rates had been at 10 percent and higher from 2000 to 2008. Premiums rose…but not costs.

      “According to economist Gail Wilensky, the surveys she has seen indicate there will be an 8 percent to 9 percent increase in premiums, of which she attributes about 2 percent to 3 percent to the health care law. Wilensky was the head of Medicare during the George H.W. Bush administration and is now a senior fellow at Project HOPE, a health training and humanitarian organization. She cites three factors that she sees as increasing costs: more use of care, higher costs of care, and the provisions of the health care law. Her projections are in line with those of Hewitt Associates, a human resources consulting company, which estimated that there would be an average premium increase of 8.8 percent in 2011 for employer-provided plans, with 1 percent to 2 percent of that attributable to the health care law.” (Source: Kaiser Family Foundation)

      The article states “The bottom line for the average family, according to Forbes.com, is an additional annual cost of $1,261 for the average family, or a diversion of 2.5 percent of the average household’s income in taxes alone.” OK…fast play with words. unless reading very carefully, it appears this $1261 increase is that born direct by the family out of pocket.

      More accurate and PLAIN READING understandable is that according to the Congressional Budget Office, Obamacare will cost an additional $1.5 trillion through 2021, some of which may be financed by the states through higher Medicaid and other health programs. This $1.5 trillion is equivalent to an additional annual cost of $1,261 per U.S. household. Key words…2021/equivalent/paid by states via increased funding programs.

      Yes..I agree. Obamacare is flawed. Yet, over 60% of the residents of Massachusetts support their mini version. (Politifact). The main flaw? the lack of a public option. Given a public option setting minimum care, private industry may offer the same package and compete..or give additional insurance and a higher coverage product.

      What is of interest as well….those states which are not developing the insurance exchange mandated by the law? Y’know…to give states greater discretion in implementing the law? Why…..almost every state that is opting for federal control of those exchanges..passing on state control….are led by GOP governors. Go figure….ceding state powers yet yelling about federalism. Hmmmm

      • Melanie

        Hey Flashy, Kool-aid tastes pretty good, huh?

      • DaveH

        Flashman says — “Whoa there Mr. Livingston. Let’s make sure we have some of the facts straight”.
        Fat chance of getting any “facts” from the non-credible Flashman.

      • Flashy

        Notice you didn’t contest anything I said DaveH. If you have nothing to say, don’t post. Oh wait..that would mean you’d never post ….

      • Deborah57

        Ok Flashy, hope you’re the first one in line to get the chip.

      • DaveH

        Flashman says — “This $1.5 trillion is equivalent to an additional annual cost of $1,261 per U.S. household [through 2021]“.
        $1.5 Trillion? There are 310 Million People in the US. So if we divide $1.5 Trillion ($1500000 Million) by 310 million people we get $4838 per Person. But that’s not the end of it, because the average household in the US has 3.1 persons in it. So after multiplying $4838 by 3.1 we have $15000 per household “through 2021″. That would be 9 years from now for a resulting figure of $1666 per household per year.
        And that’s assuming that the Government figures hold true. Since when have Government predictions for future Government costs held true?

      • DaveH

        I did have something to say, Flashman — that you have no credibility. And that is a fact.

      • Flashy

        DaveH…if you have a problem with the figures, go argue with the credible sites which I garnered them from….one which is an economist from the Bush Administration, the others well known for being credible.

        Let me guess…you tried winging it since you couldnt find a good Mises link with a catchy title…

      • Flashy

        BTW…the cost is the same as What Mr. Livingston cited…i just clarified the language. So, in reality, you just dissed Bob Livingston.

        Frippin’ idiot….jeesh.

      • JON

        Very good post!
        As usual, the nay sayers present no intelligent argument to rebut your statement, They present only non-facts and immaturity. They love to gang up on those with a different and free thinking approach to topics.

      • box-bb-car

        And, praytell, what does it matter if the hand taking funds from my pocket is that of the Feds, or that of the state? The money is equally gone.

        I will not discount greed as a portion of the cost increases, however one thing that I seldom hear discussed, and that Obamacare does little or nothing to stop, is punitive damage from lawsuits. This is a major influence on healthcare in that it affects directly the liability insurance of medical practitioners and manufacturers. To solve this, a cap should have been placed on PUNITIVE (not actual) damages, even if that cap were $5M per individual. In addition, such damages should limit a lawyer’s take from a percentage, to a multiple of the industry standard billing rate, payable by the loosing side. Lawsuits found to be frivilous should face a fine up to and including the amount they attempted to sue for (again, applying only to the punitive portion) this would be assesed disproportionately upon the law firm, as they should have done due diligence to determine the viability of the case. This would go a long way towards rectifying rising medical costs, as well as product liability costs

      • FreedomFighter

        “Obamacare’s Real Costs”…

        “It is about locking more Americans into the clutches of the Big Pharma/Medical Industrial complex, providing more customers for Big Insurance and confiscating more wealth from individuals and businesses.”

        All true, all true, yet…Obamacare is far more sinister and evil, ITS ABOUT EUGENICS.

        A 50% plus death tax, while promoting the premature death of the elderly? a satanic, Very sick kinda theft.

        “In 2010, the United Nations published a blueprint in which the global elite announced their intentions for phasing out global warming as means of achieving global governance in favor of the overpopulation theme as a means to destroy, impoverish and enslave the middle classes across the nations of this planet. The ultimate globalist goal is dramatic population reduction.”…

        “One would think that the Globalists would be ecstatic with the murder of over 50 million fetuses in the last 40 years in the United States”…

        “The globalists have extended their population reduction programs from one-child policies to widespread abortion and contraception practices to the blatant act of committing genocide on the elderly in Britain as a beta test in preparation for the planet-wide implementation of elderly euthanasia in every national socialist health care system on the planet.”

        British NHS Euthanizes the Elderly and Obamacare Follows Suit
        http://www.thecommonsenseshow.com/2012/11/16/british-nhs-euthanizes-the-elderly-and-obamacare-follows-suit/

        Laus Deo
        Semper Fi

      • eddie47d

        The only Eugenics is coming from the right wing poop peddlers like FF. The only ones peddling death panels are private insurance companies who keep the sick off of their policies thus reaping huge profits from the healthy. Those left off will still be allowed to stay home and die so that would be your “death panels” or self inflicted eugenics.

      • Stuart Shepherd

        Over 60% of Massachusetts voters probably approve of human-animal species marriage, also, Flashy- as long as both the human and the animal are the same sex- so I don’t really think that’s a good barometer of a legislation’s legitimacy!! Anyone who either: 1. THINKS they’re getting something for nothing (dependent liberals) or condescendingly THINKS that’s a good idea to have for the oppressed minorities (the liberal elites) would support such an approach (Obamacare)- that would describe nearly the ENTIRE state of Massachusetts!!

      • WIA Ben

        Flushy, I see that you are still drinking all that you’ve been flushing, your so full of it, keep drinking it. We who read and researched the Obamacare bill know better. Was it not Nanny Pukeosy that said we have to pass it to know what’s in the bill? Well Flushy Washy, know you know. Keep lying, Satan, will bite you in the Arse.

      • TIME

        Dear PEOPLE,

        Lets explore just one platform of the “CON” job of selling CURES to the worlds population, not unlike Obama Care, of what is just one more in a long line of Idiocy that people take as doing GOOD when in fact they are doing the work of ” PURE EVIL.”

        Lets start with ~ Adding ~ “RAT POISON” ~~ aka “Sodium Fluoride” ~ to our drinking water, and why was that again?
        You’re told it make your Teeth stronger, as well your bones stronger afterall your Denist said its good for you, and why is that again? .And who told them again The American Dental AssOciation, who are funded by whom again?

        Ok so lets see, if addig Rat Poison to your watter is so ggod for your teeth ~~
        Then I guess that “Fluorosis” being the number ONE dental health problem is just rhetoric. But then again this special tooth ROT has only been around since the advent of adding Soudium Fluoride to the drinking water.
        So that can’t be the reason, no ~~~ thats just to logical to crosslink such an effect

        So the Quasi Science tells you its your fault for being alive, it can’t be from adding RAT POISON to your water. afterall its all in your head that your teeth are rotting out of your mouth, and your bones getting weeker but its all in your head so keep adding that RAT POISON to your drinking water..
        Let alone the Human Immune systems getting weeker,
        { after all Posion is good for you right.}

        And thats just ONE very Clear Cut example of the Depravity thats now within the Normalcy Bais ~ within the ranks of countless millions of utterly STUPID people.

        Oh really,

      • Patriot

        So Fleshy, the people being laid off mean nothing to you?

      • Dave67

        I see alot of conservatrons attacking Flashy… Nobody seems to have any facts to back up their BS.

        Apparently they love the fact that the company makes the choices of doctors you can see and also love the soaking insurance companies/big pharm put on the system under the BS notion of capitalism.

        The HC law makes it so that insurance firms must use 80% of premiums for actual care, if they don’t… People get a refund.

        Apparently also, the conservatrons were happy that people who could afford HC insurance but didn’t get it for whatever reason, gets hurt/sick, goes to the emergency room to get the most expensive care there is, then people pay for their HC through either increased taxes or premiums….

        The HC law is not perfect… Would it be so bad to look at successful systems in the world and try and emulate them here? Not in conservativeland.

      • Ima Tenther

        Flashy, keep on believing those 1% increases you posted. Meanwhile, take a look at the government’s own website. In IL, some insurers are raising their rates as much as 40+%.
        http://companyprofiles.healthcare.gov/
        Gee, makes you wonder why they didn’t approve all these increases BEFORE election, doesn’t it?
        Then, according to Kaiser, MA now has the highest per capita health care spending in the nation, outside of DC.
        http://www.statehealthfacts.org/comparemaptable.jsp?yr=63&typ=4&ind=596&cat=5&sub=143
        Sorry to burst your bubble.

      • http://google David

        Apparent people just love doing business with the government. If a private enterprise made this deal you would you seriously buy it?

      • Vicki

        Several liberals here claim that big pharma is out to get the little guy and claim that Obamacare will save them. However the truth is far more interesting. And using the same office that flashy quotes we find that 75% of the costs will be paid by people who are NOT rich. (no surprise for any of us who know how government works but a bit of a shock to liberals :) )

        http://winteryknight.wordpress.com/2012/06/30/75-of-the-costs-of-obamacare-will-be-paid-by-those-making-120000-or-less/

      • http://pweiters9.wordpress.com pweiters9

        11/19/12, The bottom line, Flash, is cost will escalate as care deteriorates. You will get fewer new people willing to go into medicine as veteran practitioners retire. So you can now entertain California’s bright idea to issue “homeless permits.” Have you heard this? Bob Grant was right when he warned us, many years ago, that we’re finished; “it’s over, folks…we’re slipping & sliding precipitously into 3rd worldism.” And that was before the age of Obama.

      • Flashy

        PWeiter…look as much as i can, i can’t find the requirement doctors are supposed to earn gadzillions, hospitals are supposed to each own expensive machines, drug companies are supposed to have 20 year patents and 200% profits, and employers are supposed to leach off the labor of their workers while the CEO takes in millions. Fact is, some analysts believe companies may use health care as an excuse to raise prices, even if the added costs don’t warrant the increase. (Smartmoney)

        No one has stated that what has been the normal way of doing healthcare business is supposed to be in concrete. heck, the “old way’ has resulted in rampant cost ncreases and the Middle Class being stretched as the dollar limits are reached. Face it, under the “old way”, the only restraint on health care costs was what the insurance companies could squeeze out of a coverage policyholder’s pocketbook. It was a balancing act of what business lost from and increase was..versus additional income gained from such increase.

        The industry will have to adjust. It will. With all the whining and protests we her today, it’s all smoke and mirrors. Five years from now, the stock will be solid, profits maintained, and health care to all.

        Bottom line is, I have faith in American ingenuity and industry to adjust and continue to make profits. Why don’t you?

        Fact is…i advocate a public option to bring REAL competition to the industry, and i advocate hospital centers where tests and machine can be centralized so avoid duplication of costs.

        Industry will adjust. The real question is..why don’t you have faith in American industry?

      • eddie47d

        Patriot: Did you care about all the jobs that were lost in 2007-2009 by big corporations? The Medical Industrial Complex is part and parcel of those corporations. Same poop different day! If health care jobs are rising it could be that there will be more jobs only in different fields.

      • Vicki

        Flashy writes:
        “…under the “old way”, the only restraint on health care costs was what the insurance companies could squeeze out of a coverage policyholder’s pocketbook.”

        And under the new way the only restraint on health care costs will be what the (government)insurance companies can squeeze out of the pocketbooks of whatever taxpayers are still alive.

        Flashy: “Five years from now, the stock will be solid, profits maintained, and health care to all. ”

        Left alive.

        We look forward to your proving that to us.

      • Davidus Romanus

        Yes, well. If the State is going to finance some of the cost, where will that money come from? Do they have a giant bank account in the Cayman Islands they can draw that money from? All payments made by any gov’t come from the taxpayers, so saying that “some of which may be financed by the states” means taxpayers won’t be paying that money is baloney.

      • http://naver samurai

        I see Flushy and JON (kang?) are up to their old tricks again. Using lies, innuendo, rhetoric, and personal attacks instead of trying to answer intelligently. No sources again? What else is new? I guess on top of the taxes mentioned in the article, which JON and flushy don’t mind paying (5th columners, sheesh!), the middle class will be hit with $2500 a year in new taxes when this thing starts and $2500 a year more when it is fully implemented. Sorry dudes, but my tax dollars are not going to someone who is too lazy or ignorant to be self reliant and personally responsible for the things they need. We need to get rid of Obama bin Laden Care and the welfare state. We should go totally by the Constitution and our Christian founding. Here is an article from the Wall Street Journal explaining certain areas about Obama bin Laden Care.

        http://www.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887324735104578122741540428344.html

        FOR GOD AND COUNTRY! 하나님하고 나라를 위해서!

        You need both love of country and faith in God to be a patriot. This leaves Flushy and JON (kang?) out of the picture.

        “A patriot must be a religious man.”

        Thomas Jefferson

      • Grammy

        Flashy, you have provided a well-written reply here with important information. Nevertheless, it is a fact that government cannot tax businesses; they will always pass the costs on in the cost of their products, which we will buy.
        It occurs to me that the way to control the insurance companies is to give us FREEDOM FROM insurance companies, not tie us to them. In other words, if we could use health savings accounts with a tax benefit, the consumer would cause insurance company reforms through competition. If we all knew what we are being charged for every health care need, and if medical sources competed for our business, we would see our health care costs come down. We don’t need government interference. I would happily put our $1,000 monthly insurance premium into an HSA and be able to choose who I see and what kind of care I need.
        We have the very best medical care in the world. Government interference will only drop that standard, and Obamacare will bring us down to the level of the rest of the world. There is a reason why Canadians come to the US for serious medical care. Let’s keep it that way.

      • nickkin

        CBO facts and figures are lies….they only support the whims of the current admin..You can fluff and bluff all you want. There will be only more costs, limited coverage of mandated no-coverage at all. Still many canadians and foreignors come here for coverage that they can’t get in their homeland or die waiting. And as time goes on with a limited amount of health care individuals leaving the industry, we americans may have to go to foreign countries for care. Overall, yes everyone will have coverage whether it be temporary or bag-type with zipper. What nobody has figured out yet is the cost of those with pre-existing conditions or pre-mature new borns. Of course, since we pay for abortions, the inevitable of elimination is in the cards.

      • Ibn Insha

        Your numbers, my numbers, who cares. Every time government moves a muscle it cost me something.

      • Smilee

        Vicki says:
        November 19, 2012 at 4:46 pm

        There are no government insurance companies except orgininal Medicare that we have had since 1965 and is popular with a large majority and is more efficient and has better coverage’s than the private sector insurances and has had preexisting coverage’s since it started. You obviously do not understand either but pretend that you do.

        • Frank Kahn

          As with the last few posts from you, this post is very confusing. You are replying to eddie47d but your post starts out with Vicki says. Then continues to say something that may or may not be what Vicki said but instead what you are saying in reply. So I apologize if the text is from Vicki instead of you. But the post is very much off target.

          First, there is a program called medicaid, which is state sponsored insurance (that makes it government health insurance).

          NOW, about this wonderful thing we call medicare. When you say it is popular with a large majority, what do you mean popular, does that mean liked? And, majority of who?

          More efficient, in what way? More cost effective for whom?

          My mother has medicare, and I have never heard her say she likes it.

          I have heard her complain about the fact that the monthly medicare premium payment always increases more than the cost of living increase in her SS payments.

          I have read the authorization documents from medicare for her medical expenses, they generally authorize maybe 10% of the usual market rate for a procedure and then pay maybe 25% of that amount. This makes her medicare supplement pay the rest (medicare supplements are paid for by the medicare recipient). Medicare does not authorize all procedures or medicines either. So my mother is not a part of your large majority.

          Efficient? Seems like Obama made some statements about reducing the cost of medicare by eliminating the waste.

          Cost effective? I am not a doctor, nor do I have a doctor in my family so I would prefer that the effectiveness of the cost be handled by someone directly involved. But, I doubt that many doctors would say getting paid 1/10th the expected amount for services rendered is cost effective.

      • Smilee

        Frank Kahn says:
        November 21, 2012 at 4:18 pm

        As with the last few posts from you, this post is very confusing. You are replying to eddie47d but your post starts out with Vicki says. Then continues to say something that may or may not be what Vicki said but instead what you are saying in reply. So I apologize if the text is from Vicki instead of you. But the post is very much off target.

        I WAS RESPONDING TO VICKI SO IT WAS ON TARGET, IF IT IS CONFUSING IT ONLY EXISTS WITHIN YOUR OWN MIND.

        First, there is a program called medicaid, which is state sponsored insurance (that makes it government health insurance).

        MEDICAID IS ADMINISTERED BY THE STATES SO IT CAN VARY FROM STATE TO STATE BUT MN & ND PAY PREMIUMS TO PRIVATE SECTOR INSURANCE COMPANIES BUT DO NOT RUN THEM THEMSELVES IT SIMILAR TO MEDICARE PARTS C & D WHICH IS ARE PRIVATE SECTOR. GOV. PAID FOR INSURANCE AND GOV INSURANCE COMPANIES ARE TWO VERY DIFFERENT THINGS, MEDICARE A & B ARE GOVERNMENT INSURANCE COMPANIES, MEDICARE C & D ARE GOVERNMENT SPONSORED PRIVATE SECTOR INSURANCE COMPANIES AND IF YOU DO NOT UNDERSTAND THE DIFFERENCE YOU DO NOT KNOW WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT

        NOW, about this wonderful thing we call medicare. When you say it is popular with a large majority, what do you mean popular, does that mean liked? And, majority of who?

        PEOPLE WHOM ARE ON MEDICARE AND THEIR FAMILIES

        More efficient, in what way?

        8% OVERHEAD FOR MEDICARE VS 25-40% FOR PRIVATE SECTOR AND IS REDUCED TO 15% OR 20% UNDER THE NEW OBAMACARE (ANOTHER COST SAVINGS IN IT THAT FEW ON HERE EVER MENTION)

        More cost effective for whom?

        THE MEDICARE RECIPIENT ABOUT HALF THE COST IN MY CASE WITH BETTER COVERAGE’S AND BEFORE MEDICARE I HAD MUCH BETTER INSURANCE THAN MOST HAVE TODAY IN THE UNDER 65 CROWD.

        My mother has medicare, and I have never heard her say she likes it

        .IF SHE SAID YOU PROBABLY DID NOT LISTEN, A COMMON MISTAKE YOU MAKE ON HERE

        I have heard her complain about the fact that the monthly medicare premium payment always increases more than the cost of living increase in her SS payments.

        WRONG IT NEVER HAS FOR ME, NEXT YEAR IT WILL BE LESS THAN 40% OF SS INCREASE AND THAT INCLUDES ALL THREE PREMIUMS COMBINED, MEDICARE B PREMIUM AND PREMIUMS FOR SUPPLEMENT AND MEDICARE D AND THAT IS CONSISTENT WITH PAST INCREASES SO I GUESS YOU LACK KNOWLEDGE IN THIS ITEM TOO.

        I have read the authorization documents from medicare for her medical expenses, they generally authorize maybe 10% of the usual market rate for a procedure and then pay maybe 25% of that amount.

        ORIGINAL MEDICARE (MEDICARE APPROVED AMOUNT) IS AN 80% PAID BY THEM AND 20% BY YOU OR THE SUPPLEMENT INSURANCE AND MEDICARE C THE GOV PAYS A PORTION OF THE PREMIUM OF THE PRIVATE SECTOR PLAN WHICH IS PAID PER THE PLAN SET BY THE INSURANCE COMPANY AND APPROVED MY MEDICARE SO THEY CAN BE ALL OVER THE BOARD ON THESE PLANS. THEY PAY ABOUT 30% TO 70% OF THE DOCTOR BILLED AMOUNT TO MEDICARE OF WHICH MEDICARE PAYS 80% AND THE SUPPLEMENT PAYS THE BALANCE OF THAT AMOUNT AND THAT DIFFERS FROM DOCTOR TO DOCTOR, I HAVE SEEN $125.00 DIFFERENCE OF THE BILLED AMOUNT BETWEEN TWO DIFFERENT DOCTORS FOR THE SAME BILLING CODE. In this case one charged $225 and the other $100 AND MEDICARE PAID THEM BOTH $78.00 SO THE VARIANCES DIFFER BUT NEVER HAVE I SEEN 10% This makes her Medicare supplement pay the rest SUPPLEMENT PLANS PAY ONLY 20% OF THE MEDICARE APPROVED AMOUNT

        (medicare supplements are paid for by the medicare recipient).

        I ASSUME YOU MEAN SUPPLEMENT PLAN PREMIUMS

        Medicare does not authorize all procedures or medicines either

        TRUE BUT MUCH MORE THAN MOST PRIVATE PLANS, SELDOM HAVE I RUN INTO THIS AND ALSO THEY CANNOT DENY FOR PREEXISTING CONDITIONS WHICH WILL CHANGE FOR THE REST IN 2014 UNDER OBAMACARE.

        So my mother is not a part of your large majority.

        LIKE MOTHER LKE SON, YOU ARE IN THE MINORITY ON MOST THINGS TOO

        Efficient? Seems like Obama made some statements about reducing the cost of medicare by eliminating the waste.

        HE HAS, YOUR NOT PAYING ATTENTION AGAIN, BUT SOME CREDIT HAS TO BEGIN WITH BUSH AS IT WAS STARTED BY HIM IN 2004, OBAMA IN OBAMA CARE GOT MONIES TO GO AFTER FRAUD AND THERE HAVE BEEN BIG INCREASES IN FRAUD ARRESTS BUT IT STILL IS NOT ENOUGH AND THIS CONTRIBUTES TO EFFICIENCY TOO.

        Cost effective? I am not a doctor, nor do I have a doctor in my family so I would prefer that the effectiveness of the cost be handled by someone directly involved. But, I doubt that many doctors would say getting paid 1/10th the expected amount for services rendered is cost effective.

        YOUR AMOUNTS ARE WRONG (28% TO ABOUT 80%, MANY DOCTORS OVER BILL TO GET LARGER TAX DEDUCTIONS ON THEIR TAXES, SO THIS AMOUNT DIFFER GREATLY) AND YOU ARE ENTITLED TO THIS OPINION, HOWEVER, THAT IS NOT THE WAY IT IS SO AGAIN I GUESS YOU ARE IN THE MINORITY.
        I UNDERSTAND YOU DO NOT LIKE MEDICARE AND THAT IS OK, BUT TO DISTORT THE FACTS OF IT AND WHAT IS DOES IS NOT, YOU CERTAINLY LACK A LOT OF KNOWLEDGE ABOUT IT OR YOUR KNOWINGLY SPREADING LIES AND ONLY YOU CAN TELL US WHICH AND I DOUBT YOU WILL

        • Frank Kahn

          Smilee, you are the epitome of stupidity. Everything in my post was 100% accurate and verifiable with actual statements from the doctors office and proof of payment given by medicare and her supplementary insurance. I pay very close attention to what everyone says around me. She has no like for the pathetic medicare she is forced to use for her health care. I even talked to her today about your insanity and she is 100% inline with my statement to you. Her medicare premium payments have always outweighed her COLA increases in SS. She has had to pay for several, expensive, prescription medications out of pocket because medicare does not accept them. Happy, no, I have not met anyone besides hearing your pathetic attempt at glorifying it here, that says medicare is good. It is a necessary evil for poor people who cannot afford private insurance.

          You missed the idea about costs, you are so far off that I question your mental stability. Doctors over inflate their bills so they can save money on taxes? What kind of stupid remark is that?

          And medicare only authorizes about 10% of the actual cost of a service. Once again I have documentary proof of this. Of the authorized amount the supplement pays the majority of the cost. Again I have documentary proof of this statement. If you can provide me with some form of forged documentation showing the magic gift that medicare gives only to you, please photo-copy it and post it here.

          An ignorant, possibly brain dead, extremist left leaning liberal should never use the words MAJORITY or MINORITY. You are incapable of discerning the true opinions of the citizenry of this nation. The MAJORITY of the people I know HATE MEDICARE, they also DISAPPROVE of Obama. Those are statements of FACT, and you can neither deny or disprove them.

          I have personally met only one person who approves of Obama. When I asked him why, he said, “because he is good for our country”, I said what do you mean, he said “what he does is right”. Now to someone with no ability to think, those responses might make sense, but they are hollow words that dont answer the question.

      • nickkin

        Whoa there yourself flashy……tax increases, more tax increases, layoffs, business closing shop……everything thing looks rosy cheeky…..your name flashy exemplifies that you apparently were struck with a blunt object.

      • Matt

        Nice catch Flashy. Most of the Republicunts are unwilling to do any match, research or think for themselves (and I used to be one of you, but now carry “no title”).

      • sam1966

        Matt says he carries no title, but he sure sounds like a libtard. FOR GOD AND COUNTRY! 하나님하고 나라를 위해서!

        You need both love of country and faith in God to be a patriot.

        “The problem with our liberal friend isn’t that they are ignorant, just that they know so much that isn’t so.”

        Ronald Reagan

    • Flashy

      Mr. Livingston…please check your data sources more carefully. you wrote above that Obamacare would cost 800,000 jobs. not true. blantantly not true.

      http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/16/opinion/keller-five-obamacare-myths.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

      • Frank Kahn

        So, Flashy, we are bound to take an obviously liberal persons opinions as FACT? This was in the op-ed section also called opinions section. His views were obviously biased by his liberal views. He makes claims not supportable by fact. He claims to KNOW what the CBO meant instead of what they said.

        Any intelligent person can rip that article to shreds on almost every point he made.

        He prognosticates that conservatives are wanting to kill it quick just because they dont want to have to contend with the massive amount of happy people that will be created by the acts full implementation. BS, they want to avoid the cost.

        Obama’s plan will FORCE doctors to charge less for care by reducing the amount they are allowed to receive. Again, BS, this will not make them charge less (lose money), it will make them quit and find a job that pays better money. Medicare rates cost the consumer, the money a doctor loses treating a medicare patient is passed on to the regular paying customer.

      • Flashy

        “it will make them quit and find a job that pays better money”

        Uh huh …well…if they can find a profession tht pays better…and money is their driving urges…well, they are free to go into that profession.

        So…tell us, what profession would a doctor go into that pays better?

        • Frank Kahn

          Being a plumber

      • sam1966

        First of all Flushy, the NYT is a liberal rag and not really a trustworthy source. Second, if you want more taxes and companies having to pay more (Which will close down businesses), then go ahead, comrade. Third, here is a funny video about an Obama bin Laden supporter.

        http://www.conservativevideos.com/2012/11/an-obama-supporter-awakes-a-4-year-coma/

        FOR GOD AND COUNTRY! 하나님하고 나라를 위해서!

        You need both love of country and faith in God to be a patriot. This leaves you out.

        “If we ever forget that we are One Nation Under God, then we will be a nation gone under.”

        Ronald Reagan

      • ChuckS

        1/3 of doctors are over 55 and could retire. A number are from other countries and might find it relatively easy to leave the US. I think there aren’t enough young people becoming doctors – if young people don’t like Obamacare, there will be fewer becoming doctors.

        Doctors could become lobbyists, trying to get exceptions from Obamacare for their clients. Or government bureaucrats in the Obamacare mess. Or maybe they could be managers in some other industry.

      • Smilee

        sam1966 says:
        November 19, 2012 at 8:11 pm

        The New York Times if regarded as the best and most credible newspaper in the US today by the vast majority excluding the far right ding bats of which you are a part. You are in the minority and cannot comprehend that your opinions are as well, meaningless to almost all, at least the intelligent.

      • nickkin

        If your souces are coming from the lib press like the new york slime, i can’t imagine the amount of garbage your head contains and you consider this your educated knowledge from the other lib news on the left-slant tv junk.

      • Ibn Insha

        Hey, Flasy boy, why should we believe you? You point to one source, that suits your agenda, and you want us to believe that source and not Livingston. Why?

      • http://naver samurai

        Care to cite a source on that smelly? Since something is very far left of center, it cannot be a very reliable source. But alas! You and your moronic ilk just doesn’t seem to learn or open your minds to the possibilities of there being things other than that of left wing looneyism. Here is one the compares that start of Nazism to Obama bin Laden Care. You’ll be amazed at the similarities.

        http://www.impeachobamacampaign.com/video-obamacare-and-the-origins-of-the-nazi-holocaust/

        It seems that you lib/prog 5th columners want this in America, so who are the fools here? It sure isn’t the patriots. FOR GOD AND COUNTRY! 하나님하고 나라를 위해서!

        You need both love of country and faith in God to be a patriot. This leaves you out.

        “Respect your country always. Respect your government, when they earn it.”

        Samuel Clemons

      • Smilee

        nickkin says:
        November 20, 2012 at 1:07 pm

        No, my statements were based on actual polls of the american public and other countries too and the consensus is what I said, You want to hear biased reporting so of course you will see it as liberal because that is your excuse for everything you do not like and blame rather than the truth which you obviously hate or care nothing about.

      • Smilee

        samurai says:
        November 20, 2012 at 7:54 pm

        It has been know for years and again reported on the news last week. You hate truth so you slant, twist and spin all facts to your biased agenda and accuse any whom bear the truth as liberals as that is where your deepest hate lies weather it is true or not. I have no doubt if you googled it you would find much proof of what I said but you will not go there as you fear the truth and cannot handle it. Get your head out of your a$$ so you can see the light of day.

        • Frank Kahn

          You are starting to annoy me again Smilee, you dont have the true facts either. You are just as biased as those you berate. Maybe you need to check the truth instead of relying on liberally biased mantra.

          • wheels

            Frank, does anybody really knows the truth about this so-called health care act. Nobama says one thing (and people with a lick of common sense know what him telling the the “TRUTH” means) and conservatives being just as “truthful.” The only fact we can all claim to know is any program the government has involved itself in has cost the taxpayer more and they received so much less than promised. Knowing just that one piece of truth tells me the populace of this country will have their wallets raped while at the same time find healthcare quality end up in the toilet. Good luck to all out there getting swept up in this boondoggle as we will need it!

      • Smilee

        samurai says:
        November 21, 2012 at 12:24 am

        More stupidity from Sammy

      • Smilee

        Kahn says:
        November 21, 2012 at 3:51 pm

        You are starting to annoy me again Smilee, you dont have the true facts either. You are just as biased as those you berate. Maybe you need to check the truth instead of relying on liberally biased mantra.

        WHAT I SAID IS TRUE AND YOU SAID NOTHING THAT DISPUTES THAT, I HAVE CHECKED THE TRUTH WHY DIDN’T YOU. INSTEAD YOU THROW OUT A BIG BUCKET OF MUD AND HOPES SOME STICKS, I SUPPOSE THAT COULD BE YOUR BIASES SPEAKING AS YOU LACK ANY CREDIBILITY ON THIS. ANNOY YOU?? FANTASTIC AS THE TRUTH DOES THAT TO MANY AS IT INDICATES A CONSCIENCE TELLING THEM THE TRUTH HURTS AND DEEP DOWN YOU KNOW WHAT I SAID IS TRUE.

        • Frank Kahn

          First of all Smilee, you need to address your post to the post on which you are responding. I have never seen you show anything that is truth. You want truth, here is it. You are an ignorant moronic despot. You are incapable of free and independent thought. You THINK you know the truth because some extreme leftist site said so.

          You want me to prove you wrong? Fine, name whatever item you claim is true and I will show you definite proof that you are sadly mistaken and sorely misinformed.

          • http://naver samurai

            Don’t worry about smelly, Frank. He is a liar and a child of satan. He can never know the truth about anything and only comes here to tease, intimidate, and to show his superiority complex mental problem. Anyway, may you and yours have a Happy Thanksgiving from Sook Young and I. FOR GOD AND COUNTRY! 하나님하고 나라를 위해서!

            You need both love of country and faith in God to be a patriot. This leaves smelly out.

            “Having undertaken, for the glory of God, and the advancement of the Christian faith.”

            The Mayflower Compact

      • Smilee

        wheels says:
        November 21, 2012 at 5:47 pm

        FOR SURE OBAMA SPEAKS MORE MUCH MORE TRUTH THAN YOU DO AND WHAT YOU SAY ILLUMINATES YOUR TOTAL LACK OF KNOWLEDGE OF WHAT OBAMACATE IS AND DOES.

      • http://naver samurai

        Ah yes! Once again smelly rears his less intelligent head. You claim what you say is true, then why don’t you cite a source? All you are doing is repeating lies, rhetoric, and innuendo that has been tol to you by your lib/prog masters. You are the one here that spins and is very slanted to the looney left. According to section 2531 of Piglosi’s near 2000 page tome on health care reform, states can receive incentive payments for implementing alternatives to medical malpractice suits. However, if these forms include any reduction for attorney’s fees or any caps on malpractice awards, the state will be barred from receiving incentive pay. If that isn’t deceitful doubletalk, then I don’t know what is. It is like the old protection racket done by the mafia and drug cartels. Do what we ask and pay us money or we can’t protect you. Not the ways of our Christian founding fathers, Constitution, or what is moral and ethical. Neeeeed to be making that popping sound. I see you have resulted in using the 5th column strategy of the personal attack. This means you have no facts or sources, so you try to misdirect a person by attacking them. Looks like you have failed in that mission. But alas! You fail at everything.

        http://www.freedomoutpost.com/2012/11/when-extortion-becomes-the-law-of-the-land/

        FOR GOD AND COUNTRY! 하나님하고 나라를 위해서!

        You need both love of country and faith in God to be a patriot. This leaves you out of the picture, traitor. Here is something dealing with Thanksgiving:

        “It is the duty of all nations to acknowledge the providence of Almighty God, to obey His will, to be grateful for His benefits, and to humbly implore His protection and favor.”

        George Washington

        • Smilee

          OH, SAMMY, SAMMY, how pathetic

          Ah yes! Once again smelly rears his less intelligent head. You claim what you say is true, then why don’t you cite a source?

          SOURCES ABOUND GALORE IF YOU WHERE NOT TO LAZY TO LOOK THEM UP AND YOU WILL NOT FIND THE TRUTH IN THE PROPAGANDA SITES YOU READ

          All you are doing is repeating lies, rhetoric, and innuendo that has been tol to you by your lib/prog masters. You are the one here that spins and is very slanted to the looney left.

          YOU CLAIM I GIVE NO SOURCES THEN WITHOUT ANY PROOF OF ANY KIND YOU SHOOT YOUR MOUTH OFF WITH STUPID STATEMENTS LIKE THESE WHOM ARE TOTAL FALSE AND YOU ACCUSE ME WITHOUT KNOWING WHY

          According to section 2531 of Piglosi’s near 2000 page tome on health care reform, states can receive incentive payments for implementing alternatives to medical malpractice suits. However, if these forms include any reduction for attorney’s fees or any caps on malpractice awards, the state will be barred from receiving incentive pay. If that isn’t deceitful doubletalk, then I don’t know what is. It is like the old protection racket done by the mafia and drug cartels. Do what we ask and pay us money or we can’t protect you. Not the ways of our Christian founding fathers, Constitution, or what is moral and ethical. Neeeeed to be making that popping sound. I see you have resulted in using the 5th column strategy of the personal attack. This means you have no facts or sources, so you try to misdirect a person by attacking them. Looks like you have failed in that mission. But alas! You fail at everything.

          ARE YOU COMPLETELY LOSING YOUR MIND, THIS IS PHYCO BABBLE THAT MAKES NO SENSE AT ALL AND SOUNDS LIKE YOU ARE EITHER DRUNK OR GOING NUTS, OF COURSE, YOU WERE ALWAYS A BIT WEIRD. THERE IS NO TORT REFORM OF ANY KIND IN THE LAW WHICH SHOWS HOW OUT OF TOUCH YOU ARE FROM REALITY.

      • sam1966

        Wrong, wrong, wrong smelly. If you cite something as fact it is you, not anyone else, that is supposed to cite a source. Stop being lazy as I will not do your homework for you. Neeeeed to be making that popping sound. Like Jeff H said before, you and your ilk just can’t be fixed. Here is why Obama bin Laden won re-election. Notice none of these are covered under the Constitution, nor are they what our Christian founding fathers.

        http://www.lastresistance.com/542/shaming-romney-for-telling-the-truth/

        FOR GOD AND COUNTRY! 하나님하고 나라를 위해서!

        You need both love of country and faith in God to be a patriot.

        “I don’t know that atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered patriots. This is One Nation Under God.”

        George H. W. Bush

      • Smilee

        sam1966 says:
        November 21, 2012 at 1:25 am

        Never once have you tried to prove me wrong just idiotic and stupid statements you lazy idiot

      • Smilee

        Frank Kahn says:
        November 22, 2012 at 8:42 pm

        Smilee, you are the epitome of stupidity. Everything in my post was 100% accurate and verifiable with actual statements from the doctors office and proof of payment given by medicare and her supplementary insurance. I pay very close attention to what everyone says around me. She has no like for the pathetic medicare she is forced to use for her health care. I even talked to her today about your insanity and she is 100% inline with my statement to you. Her medicare premium payments have always outweighed her COLA increases in SS. She has had to pay for several, expensive, prescription medications out of pocket because medicare does not accept them.

        PRESCRIPTIONS ARE PAID FOR UNDER MEDICARE D, AND ARE PRIVATE INSURANCE PLANS REGULATED BY MEDICARE, MEDICARE REQUIRES THAT MEDICARE REQUIRES SOME DRUGS BUT IN NO WAY LIMITS ANY . THE INSURANCE COMPANIES DECIDE THAT AND SOME COVER MANY DRUGS SOME FEW AND YOU CAN CHANGE PLANS ANY TIME DURING OPEN ENROLLMENT, THIS YEAR IT IS OCT 15- DEC 7. PLANS VARY GREATLY BOTH IN COST AND COVERAGES AND IT IS UP TO YOU TO GET A PLAN THAT COVERS YOUR DRUGS AND IT DOES NOT SEEM YOU HAVE DID THIS OR YOU WOULD NOT HAVE THIS SELF IMPOSED DIFFICULTY. YOU STILL HAVE TIME TO DO SO FOR NEXT YEAR SO SAME YOUR SELF SOME MONEY AND DO SO. DO NOT EVER SAY I DID NOT DO YOU A FAVOR.

        Happy, no, I have not met anyone besides hearing your pathetic attempt at glorifying it here, that says medicare is good. It is a necessary evil for poor people who cannot afford private insurance.

        I AM A SENIOR CITIZEN SO MOST OF MY CLOSEST FRIENDS ARE THAT AGE TO AND ON MEDICARE AND ALL WOULD DISAGREE WITH YOU. FROM 2006 TO 2012 THE MEDICARE B PREMIUM WENT FROM $93 TO $100 (ROUNDED OFF TO THE NEAREST DOLLAR) THAT’S SEVEN DOLLARS OVER 6 YEARS AT A LITTLE OVER $1.00 PER YEAR AVERAGE AND SOME YEARS IT DID NOT GO UP AND HER INCREAS IN SS WAS MORE THAT THAT AND THAT IS PUBLIC KNOWLEDGE SOT YOU SIR ARE AN ARROGANT LIAR. ITS SO UNREAL YOU WOULD LIE ABOUT SOMETHING THAN CAN BE CHECKED ON SO EASILY . AT LEAST YOU ADMIT IT IS CHEAPER THAN PRIVATE INSURANCE FOR THE UNDER 65 CROWD, WHAT YOU DO NOT MENTION IS THAT IN THE ORIGINAL MEDICARE WITH A GOOD SUPPLEMENT PLAN WHICH COVERAGE’S ARE SUPERIOR TO WHAT THE UNDER 65 CROWD HAS AVAILABLE TO THEM AND AND AT HALF THE PREMIUM PRICE. ANYONE WANTING TO VERIFY YOU AS THE LIAR CAN EASILY CHECK IT OUT AS IT IS ALL PUBLIC KNOWLEDGE. SEE MEDICARE.GOV

        You missed the idea about costs, you are so far off that I question your mental stability. Doctors over inflate their bills so they can save money on taxes? What kind of stupid remark is that?

        WHAT I SAID IS TRUE IT IS CONSIDERED A BUSINESS LOSS AND THESE ARE DEDUCTIBLE AND IF YOU HAD ANY KNOWLEDGE OF INCOME TAX LAWS YOU WOULD KNOW THAT SO THIS AGAIN JUST SUPPORTS YOUR ARROGANCE AND THAT YOU ARE AN OUT AND OUT LIAR.

        And medicare only authorizes about 10% of the actual cost of a service. Once again I have documentary proof of this. Of the authorized amount the supplement pays the majority of the cost. Again I have documentary proof of this statement. If you can provide me with some form of forged documentation showing the magic gift that medicare gives only to you, please photo-copy it and post it here.

        SO WHY DID YOU NOT POST YOUR EVIDENCE, I WILL TELL YOU WHY BECAUSE YOUR CLAIMS ARE TOTALLY FALSE AND THAT WOULD PROVE IT, YOU HAVE NO DOCUMENTARY PROOF OF WHAT YOU CLAIM. I GAVE AS ONE EXAMPLE BEFORE OF ONE DOCTOR CHARGING $225 AND THE OTHER $100 FOR THE SAME PROCEDURE WITH THE SAME CODE BOTH RECEIVED $78 DOLLARS FROM MEDICARE AND THE SUPPLEMENT INSURANCE SO THE EXPENSIVE DOCTOR GOT PAID 35% AND THE CHEAPER 78%. IF YOUR IS 10% THEN YOU ARE GOING TO A VERY EXPENSIVE DOCTOR AND ONE HAS TO WONDER WHY YOU WOULD CHOSEN THAT BUT I DO NOT BELIEVE YOU. i HAVE NEVER HAD A CLAIM UNDER 28% AND THE MAJORITY ARE MORE

        An ignorant, possibly brain dead, extremist left leaning liberal should never use the words MAJORITY or MINORITY. You are incapable of discerning the true opinions of the citizenry of this nation.

        THE LAST ELECTION DEFINED MAJORITY AND IT WAS PEOPLE THAT DECIDED THAT AND I’M SURE NOT ALL WERE LIBERAL

        The MAJORITY of the people I know HATE MEDICARE, they also DISAPPROVE of Obama. Those are statements of FACT, and you can neither deny or disprove them.

        NOR CAN YOU PROVE WHAT YOU SAID BUT MY EXPERIENCE IS THE OPPOSITE AND I PROBABLY HAVE MANY MORE CLOSE FRIENDS ON MEDICARE THAT YOU DO AS THAT IS MY AGE GROUP, THIS STATEMENT IS JUST MORE HOT AIR FOR YOU, REALLY BS

        I have personally met only one person who approves of Obama.

        YOUR NUMBER OF FRIENDS MUST BE EXTREAMLY LIMITED AS THE MAJORITY OF THE PEOPLE DISAGREE WITH YOU AND THEY ARE IN THE MILLIONS

        When I asked him why, he said, “because he is good for our country”, I said what do you mean, he said “what he does is right”. Now to someone with no ability to think,

        HOW WOULD YOU KNOW AS YOU NEVER THINK, JUST SHOOT YOUR MOUTH OFF WITHOUT THINKING

        those responses might make sense, but they are hollow words that dont answer the question.

        YOU CAN’T READ MINDS SO THIS IS JUST WISHFUL THINKING ON YOUR PART AND YOU ARE IN THE MINORITY OF AMERICANS

        • Frank Kahn

          Everything you say is worthless drivel.

          The medicare supplement will only pay what medicare authorizes, any drug prohibited by medicare is not covered by the supplement.

          If you insist, I will go have scans made of all her medical information as well as cost increases in her medicare premiums. I have seen these and your idiotic $7 over 6 years is BS. I viewed one of them that was over $14 in the last 8 years.

          Your name calling does not change the facts, your blindness and blatant lies will not improve your credibility here. We dont believe you.

          I am not a young person either, I have reached the age where I am also called a senior citizen in this country.

          I dont judge life by the number of friends a person has. I did not say that person was my friend, simply that I know him. I dont have any mind-dead liberal friends because I dont value psychotic mental exercises.

          I have a close acquaintance that described something that fits liberals completely. It is a mental disorder. It includes everything you display in your posts. Narcissistic, knows what is best for everyone (because it is best for them), incapable of normal human interaction and wanting to force their TRUTHS (imagined) on everyone. They are called sociopaths and it describes you perfectly.

          • Smilee

            Frank Kahn says:
            November 24, 2012 at 4:16 pm

            Everything you say is worthless drivel.
            BUT 100% TRUE AND THAT IS WHAT COUNTS

            The medicare supplement will only pay what medicare authorizes, any drug prohibited by medicare is not covered by the supplement.

            YOUR RIGHT AND I NEVER SAID DIFFERENT SO I HAVE NO IDEA WHERE YOU GOT THAT IDEA BUT THAT ONLY APPLIES IN ,MEDICARE A AND NOT IN MEDICARE D WHICH IS DIFFERENT AND IS AS I DESCRIBED IN MY PREVIOUS POST

            If you insist, I will go have scans made of all her medical information as well as cost increases in her medicare premiums.

            GO AHEAD

            I have seen these and your idiotic $7 over 6 years is BS.

            IT IS 100% TRUE AND VERIFIABLE SO YOU DO NOT HAVE TO TAKE MY WORD FOR IT, GO ON MEDICARE.GOV, IT WILL PROVE YOU A LIAR

            I viewed one of them that was over $14 in the last 8 years.

            THAT IS NOT TRUE, I’M TALKING ABOUT THE MEDICARE B PREMIUM AND I ASSUME YOU ARE TOO. MY NUMBERS ARE 100% RIGHT AND EASILY VERIFIABLE.

            Your name calling does not change the facts,

            MY FACTS ARE 100% TRUE AND ALL VERIFIABLE WITH MEDICARE

            your blindness and blatant lies will not improve your credibility here.

            IT IS YOU WHO HAS NO CREDIBILITY MINE CAN BE PROVEN BY MEDICARE AND YOU ARE THE LIAR AND THAT IS WHAT ELIMINATES CREDIBILITY.

            We don’t believe you.

            YOU DO NOT BELIEVE ME AS YOU SAID SO BUT YOU DO NOT KNOW ABOUT ANYONE ELSE BUT ALL PEOPLE IN THE KNOW ABOUT MEDICARE BELIEVE ME AND YOUR POSITIONS VERIFY TO THOSE WHO KNOW THAT YOU DO NOT UNDERSTAND MEDICARE AND WILL LIE BEFORE ADMITTING THAT

            I am not a young person either, I have reached the age where I am also called a senior citizen in this country.

            ARE YOU ON MEDICARE?? DOES NOT APPEAR SO

            I dont judge life by the number of friends a person has. I did not say that person was my friend, simply that I know him. I dont have any mind-dead liberal friends because I dont value psychotic mental exercises

            I AM BETTING IT IS BECAUSE OF YOUR PERSONALITY OR MORE LIKE THE LACK THEREOF AND YOUR RUDENESS, AND LOOK WHO IS THE NAME CALLER,, IS THERE ANY NASTY UNTRUE THING YOU WILL NOT SAY

            I have a close acquaintance that described something that fits liberals completely. It is a mental disorder.

            PEOPLE WHO CANNOT DEAL WITH REALITY ARE INCLUDED IN THOSE WHO HAVE A MENTAL DISORDER AND THAT MORE ACCURATELY FITS YOU

            It includes everything you display in your posts

            .MY POSTS ARE 100% CORRECT AND TRUE

            Narcissistic, knows what is best for everyone (because it is best for them), incapable of normal human interaction and wanting to force their TRUTHS ONE (imagined) on everyone.

            YOU INSERTED THAT NONSENSE AND YOUR GOOD AT THAT, I NEVER SAID IT WAS BEST FOR EVERYONE

            They are called sociopaths and it describes you perfectly.

            AGAIN THAT IS MORE ACCURATELY DEFINES YOU, LOOK IN THE MIRROR. YOU ARE PATHETIC, OUT OF TOUCH WITH REALITY, CRUDE, RUDE A REAL SAD EXCUSE FOR A PERSON, THESE ARE OPINIONS NOT NAME CALLING CAN YOU TELL THE DIFFERENCE. i WILL NEVER UNDERSTAND WHY YOU TRY SO HARD WITHOUT PROOF TO PROVE YOUR LIES. SO IDIOTIC EXERCISE IN FUTILITY

          • Frank Kahn

            I could not find anywhere on that site that gave past premium costs for part b, however I did find information that supports and proves my statement. I also noted that the premium cost will jump $5 dollars next year.

            But here is a link and an excerpt from the document to shows a massive increase that was 8 years ago so not so far from my contention.

            http://www.law.umaryland.edu/marshall/crsreports/crsdocuments/rl32582.pdf

            “The 2004 monthly Part B premium is $66.60; the 2005 premium will be $78.20,
            a 17.4% increase.” Over $11 in one year.

            Now, considering that 2005 is 7 years ago, and this shows that there was a $21.50 increase to the current $99.90 premium, tell me again how it only went up $7 in the last 6 years without there being a $14.00 increase from 2005 to 2006.

            And you will see that there has been a $33.30 increase in the last 8 years averaging $4.16 per year not less than a dollar.

            NOW SMILEE, I HAVE SHOWN REASONABLE EVIDENCE THAT IT IS YOU THAT IS NOT USING THE TRUE FACTS HERE.

            On the subject of friends, I have plenty of friends that respect my knowledge and personality. I have friends in many countries, I just dont consider the number of friends a person has to be a measure of their ability to know and understand the truth. The fact that there is only 1 person that I know that likes Obama is a testament to his lack of following where I live. Oh, and by the way, your statement about the millions of people disagreeing with me because of the election, there was almost as many people, that voted, who disagree with you so what is your point?.

          • Smilee

            Frankie

            Count them, 2006,2007,2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012, that is seven years, I guess you cannot add as with 2005 it would be eight and 2004 it would be nine. I paid those increases those years I mentioned and that is what I paid like I said before in 2006 it was $89.00, 2007 it was $94.00, in 2008, it was $96.40, 2009 the same no increase, 2010 the same no increase, 2011, the same no increase and in 2012 it went up to $99.90, this is the exact increases from my records on my SS records received from them a I received a $10.90 increase over these seven years, an average of a $1.56 per year. these are the exact numbers not the what i gave you before and I neglected to include one year it was not $7.00 that I gave on an earlier post. You said the medicare increases were more that than the increases in SS giving your mother a net loss. I received a total increase over these seven years of $241.90 in SS then less $10.90 increase in Medicare B premiums equals a net increase of $231,00 dollars after the Medicare increases.a long way from a net loss as you claim. These are now my actual records not rounded off or estimates. This is in response to your last post and as I only went back 7 years that is what I will respond to and that is when I have records for and as to what I did not respond to in your last post I will not as I regard it as all malarkey so typical of you. At least you did make it look like you tried to find some real answers but you went off on a tangent and included two more years in an effort to make my numbers looked skewed. as they dealt with a different time frame than i had and i corrected my single error and did not estimate in this post they are 100% correct for the time frame. It is your turn to correct all your numbers and if it takes a couple of days to get through them all feel free to do so as we only want true numbers and not the baloney you have been throwing at us.

          • Frank Kahn

            First of all Smiless, your math is wrong, I suggest you go back to 2nd grade and learn proper math. If I have one dollar and you give me enough to make it 10, are you giving me 10 or just 9 dollars?

            Yes there are 7 years if you count all years 2006 – 2012 but there are only 6 years from 2006 to 2012 not 7. It is simple subtraction 12 – 6 = 6 (2006) 12 – 7 = 5 (2005) so, there are 7 years of increases from 2005 to 2012. You were leaving out the increase from 2005 to 2006.

            That simple math problem indicates a major problem with your ignorance.

            Your next problem, which might be ignorance, or might just be your need to make everything about you. I NEVER SAID THAT THE INCREASE OF MEDICARE PART B PREMIUMS EXCEEDED YOUR SS INCREASES.

            Now, since you have such a hard time with simple subtraction, you might not be able to comprehend this next part so pay close attention.

            Social Security cost of living increases are calculated as a PERCENTAGE of your current benefit amount. THAT MEANS YOU TAKE THE PERCENTAGE OF INCREASE SAY 2% AND MULTIPLY IT WITH YOUR BASE AMOUNT GIVING YOU THE AMOUNT OF INCREASE. Now just for you I will explain percentages. 2% is the equivalent of $0.02 per dollar, or 2 cents. Now if you have a current SS benefit of say $1000.00 you will get an increase of $20.00, however if you only get $400.00 your increase will only be $8.00.

            That should give you an idea of why these increases, related to you, have nothing to do with how they affected my Mom. Your blustering about me being wrong is getting tiresome, you have failed at even the most infinitesimal item. I am happy for you that your SS went up $231 in the last 7 years, I wish mom’s would too, that would have been more than a 50% increase in her benefits.

          • Smilee

            Frank Kahn says:
            November 25, 2012 at 7:15 pm

            First of all Smiless, your math is wrong, I suggest you go back to 2nd grade and learn proper math. If I have one dollar and you give me enough to make it 10, are you giving me 10 or just 9 dollars?

            FANTASTIC, YOU GOT IT RIGHT, CL;AP CLAP

            Yes there are 7 years if you count all years 2006 – 2012 but there are only 6 years from 2006 to 2012 not 7. It is simple subtraction 12 – 6 = 6 (2006) 12 – 7 = 5 (2005) so, there are 7 years of increases from 2005 to 2012. You were leaving out the increase from 2005 to 2006.

            PAY CLOSE ATTENTION NOW FRANKIE AS I THINK A SECOND GRADER CAN UNDERSTAND THIS NOT SURE YOU ARE THAT ADVANCED AS YET. 2006 [1] 2007 [2] 2008 [3] 2009 [4] 2010 [5] 2011 [6] 2012 [7], NOW FRANKIE COUNT THEM ON YOUR FINGERS AND YOU WILL GET 7, 1.2.3.4.5.6.& 7 GET IT LITTLE BOY, I DID NOT INCLUDE 2005 OR 2004 IN MY POST SO IT WAS NOT REFLECTED IN MY POSTED AMOUNTS AND IT WAS ALSO NOT INCLUDED IN MY $10.90 AMOUNT WITCH WAS THE TOTAL FOR 2006-2012.WHICH IS $1.56 YEARLY AVERAGE INCREASE FOR THE SEVEN YEARS, NOTHING WRONG WITH MY ARITHMETIC THAT IS A PROBLEM ONLY YOU HAVE HERE

            That simple math problem indicates a major problem with your ignorance. I CERTAINLY PROVED YOU WRONG ON THIS

            YOU ARE WRONG AGAIN AS YOU USUALLY ARE

            Your next problem, which might be ignorance, or might just be your need to make everything about you I NEVER SAID THAT THE INCREASE OF MEDICARE PART B PREMIUMS EXCEEDED YOUR SS INCREASES.

            NOT MINE YOUR MOTHERS SS AND THAT IS WHAT I QUOTED, YOU DID COMPLAIN ABOUT THAT IN ONE OF YOUR POSTS THROUGH

            Now, since you have such a hard time with simple subtraction, you might not be able to comprehend this next part so pay close attention.

            RECALCULATE AND YOU WILL SEE WHO DID PAY NOT CLOSE ATTENTION, YOU ARE THE GUILTY ONE THERE

            Social Security cost of living increases are calculated as a PERCENTAGE of your current benefit amount. THAT MEANS YOU TAKE THE PERCENTAGE OF INCREASE SAY 2% AND MULTIPLY IT WITH YOUR BASE AMOUNT GIVING YOU THE AMOUNT OF INCREASE. Now just for you I will explain percentages. 2% is the equivalent of $0.02 per dollar, or 2 cents. Now if you have a current SS benefit of say $1000.00 you will get an increase of $20.00, however if you only get $400.00 your increase will only be $8.00.

            NO ARGUMENT THERE AND I NEVER SAID IT WAS NOT A PERCENTAGE INCREASE AS THEY ALWAYS ARE, CONGRATULATIONS YOUR MATH FOR A CHANGE WAS RIGHT ON THIS TIME, SURPRISE, SURPRISE

            That should give you an idea of why these increases, related to you, have nothing to do with how they affected my Mom.

            I WAS TALKING ABOUT MINE NOT HERS SO WHAT IS OUR POINT

            Your blustering about me being wrong is getting tiresome, you

            YOUR RIGHT IT WOULD BE IF IT WAS TRUE BUT IT IS NOT AND IT IS YOU WHO GOES OFF ON A TANGENT AND HAS TROUBLE WITH YOUR MATH BEING WRONG

            have failed at even the most infinitesimal item. I am happy for you that your SS went up $231 in the last 7 years,

            THAT WAS 2006-2012 SAME AS THE MEDICARE INCREASES BUT YOU GOT IT RIGHT THIS TIME BUT NOT ABOVE WHEN YOU ONLY GOT SIX

            I wish mom’s would too, that would have been more than a 50% increase in her benefits.

            THAT COULD BE TRUE IF SHE ACTUALLY GETS THAT SMALL AMOUNT BUT I DOUBT IF IT WAS LESS THAN ANY MEDICARE INCREASE AT LEAST THEY HAVE ALWAYS BEEN QUITE A BIT LESS THAN THE AVERAGE SS INCREASES. THERE SHOULD BE A MINIMUM FOR SS SO YOU MOTHER WOULD GET A REASONABLE AMOUNT AND THE ANTI OBAMA PEOPLE WANT TO CUT THESE BENEFITS FURTHER,ALBEIT IT WOULD NOT AFFECT HER BUT THOSE COMING UP IN HER IN THAT RANGE. I THINK ITS JUST TERRIBLE.

          • Frank Kahn

            my math is never wrong and you are apparently as blind as you are stupid.

            there are only 6 years from 2006 to 2012, nothing you can say will change the math moron.

            to get 7 years you have to note the increases starting in 2005 to 2006 not 2006 to 2007. I will list and count them for you like the little baby you need to be shown

            2006 – 2007 1
            2007 – 2008 2
            2008 – 2009 3
            2009 – 2010 4
            2010 – 2011 5
            2011 – 2012 6

            even a 5 year old in kindergarten can count that high, there are only 6, count them 6 years from 2006 to 2012.

            My time frame is correct according to your first assertion of 7 years, it starts in 2005 and you still have to account for the missing $14.00 increase

            My mother gets minimum SS and It is in the $400 range. I have not skewed any information to prove my point, you are the one who is fudging the numbers to avoid that $14 increase. Also, unless next years SS increase is over 10% the $5.00 increase in Medicare part B will be more than her SS increase. THEMS THE FACTS, DONT CARE IF YOU DONT LIKE THEM THEY ARE TRUE AND YOU CAN ONLY WHINE AND CRY LIKE A LITTLE LIBERAL BABY MORON, WHICH WONT CHANGE ANYTHING.

            KEEP IT COMING SMIRKY, I HAVE THE TRUE FACTS ON MY SIDE (AS WELL AS AN UNDERSTANDING OF MATH) SO WHATEVER YOU SAY WILL JUST PROVE YOUR LACK OF UNDERSTANDING.

            PS. YOU WERE NOT TALKING ABOUT MY MOMS YOU KEPT TALKING ABOUT YOUR INCREASES, WHERE DO YOU THINK I GOT THE FACT THAT YOU HAD A NET INCREASE OF $231.00?

          • Smilee

            I guess you cannot even count on your fingers, I thought this would be simple enough for you but apparently it was not. this year is the seventh year since 2006 began, we are in year 2012-2013 now and this is year seven year so as usual you are wrong. Your last year began on Jan 1 2011 and the last raise in Medicare was on Jan. 1 2012 and you do not include that, you know we are in the twenty first century and the year is 2012 and will be in the 2000′s until midnight Dec 31, 2099. My calculations begin on Jan 1, 2006 not 2005 and end on Dec 31, 2012, I have never commented on 2005, I went on Medicare in 2006 and my figures are from my records. Go back and recalculate and you will see my figures are correct less 2005. Try the finger method and you should get it. Why do I have the feeling you are not ever going to admit you are wrong but we both know you are. Your math is skewed

            I cannot dispute your mother’s SS amount i take you at your word.but I Think the $400 range is far to low in today’s world and so are the increases on that amount, there should be a minimum in lieu of the formula amount if it is less than than minimum.

          • Frank Kahn

            Intelligence is something that a person needs IF they WANT understand reality. Since you only want to believe in your personal world, intelligence is optional. In this post I will reference your statements to prove your error.

            here is the full quote I will use

            “I guess you cannot even count on your fingers, I thought this would be simple enough for you but apparently it was not. this year is the seventh year since 2006 began, we are in year 2012-2013 now and this is year seven year so as usual you are wrong. Your last year began on Jan 1 2011 and the last raise in Medicare was on Jan. 1 2012 and you do not include that, you know we are in the twenty first century and the year is 2012 and will be in the 2000′s until midnight Dec 31, 2099. My calculations begin on Jan 1, 2006 not 2005 and end on Dec 31, 2012, I have never commented on 2005, I went on Medicare in 2006 and my figures are from my records. Go back and recalculate and you will see my figures are correct less 2005″

            first FACT from your post “we are in year 2012-2013″

            Using that fact as a baseline assumption that 2013 is relevant

            “My calculations begin on Jan 1, 2006 not 2005 and end on Dec 31, 2012, I have never commented on 2005, I went on Medicare in 2006″

            Shows that your medicare started in the 2006-2007 year and ends in the 2012-2013 year

            either year you choose, 2006 – 20012 or 2007-2013 is 6 years.

            Since you started in the 2006-2007 year you did not have an increase in the 2006-2007 year. Your first increase is the 2007-2008 year, and your 7th increase will be in the 2013-2014 year.

            “the last raise in Medicare was on Jan. 1 2012 and you do not include that”

            WRONG!!! BELOW IS LISTED ALL INCREASES YOU HAVE HAD, ACCORDING TO YOUR POSTING I JUST QUOTED.

            2006-2007 TO 2007-2008 1st increase
            2007-2008 TO 2008-2009 2nd increase
            2008-2009 TO 2009-2010 3rd increase
            2009-2010 TO 2010-2011 4th increase
            2010-2011 TO 2011-2012 5th increase
            2011-2012 TO 2012-1013 6th increase

            On January 1st 2013 you will have 2012-2013 TO 2013-2014 7th increase of $5.
            Or you can include the 2005-2006 TO 2006-2007 as the 1st increase to make 7.

            Here is an example of counting years that a little child like you might understand.

            Your wife gives birth to a beautiful daughter on January 1st 2006. Today is November 26th, 2012, how old is your daughter? How old will she be on January 1st, 2013? Technically she has had 7 birthdays, if you count the actual day she was born but how many years has she lived?

            try this math question as a test of your numerical skills

            How many numbers are there between 6 and 13? I will give you a big hint, the answer is not 7.

            I have an engineering degree, which required high level math skills, simple addition and subtraction are a matter of simplicity to me. I dont use my fingers and toes, run out of numbers at 20 with them, dont use calculators for it either.

            But if you need to use your fingers (and toes for the 11 and 12 numbers) please do so. But, remember to not include the number 6 finger as the first one.

            Oh, and technically we were not in the 21st century yet in 2000, historians made a mistake and used the year Jesus was born as the 1st century so we were not into the actual 21st century until 2001 AD. And since you have such a hard time counting years, I am sure you wont understand or agree with that.

          • Smilee

            Frankie

            OK, let’s try it again seeing as you cannot count on your fingers maybe this will help you see it in reality.

            !. First Year 2006 Premium $89.00
            2. Second Year 2007 Premium $94.00
            3. Third Year 2008 Premium $96.40
            4. Fourth Year 2009 Premium $96.40
            5. Fifth Year 2010 Premium $96.40
            6. Sixth Year 2011 Premium $96.40
            7. Seventh Year 2012 Premium $99.90

            Total Seven Years, of premium rates, January 1, 2006-December 31, 2012, Total rates and increase over these seven years $10.90 with a yearly average of $1.56 THIS IS THE CORRECT RECORD FOR SEVEN YEAR FOR THESE DATES.. Think you can get it now?????????????

            You’re a real joke, I’m betting your arrogance and ego will never let you acknowledge your inaccurate and incorrect statements. And the examples you give to illustrate them are only good for a big laugh, so thanks for that

          • Frank Kahn

            cut and paste to show you support my view on just 6 increases

            “!. First Year 2006 Premium $89.00
            2. Second Year 2007 Premium $94.00
            3. Third Year 2008 Premium $96.40
            4. Fourth Year 2009 Premium $96.40
            5. Fifth Year 2010 Premium $96.40
            6. Sixth Year 2011 Premium $96.40
            7. Seventh Year 2012 Premium $99.90″

            First year premium $89.00
            First year increase $94.00 – $5.00
            Second year increase $96.40 – $2.40
            Third year increase $96.40 – $0.00
            Fourth year increase $96.40 – $0.00
            Fifth year increase $96.40 – $0.00
            Sixth year increase $99.40 – $3.00

            Please ask a child to interpret this for you, there are only 6 increases in your example. The first year does not indicate an increase from the previous year.

            I understand that a sociopath cannot accept failure but you will not be able to change reality by force of will. You should get involved in the Monday blog about sociopaths, it is a very good description of you.

          • Smilee

            Frank Kahn says:
            November 26, 2012 at 12:01 pm

            I never said there was a minimum ., i I know there is not what I said there should be, Believe it or not I actually agree with you on this post, is that a first????

          • Frank Kahn

            on your comment about moms SS amount

            “I cannot dispute your mother’s SS amount i take you at your word.but I Think the $400 range is far to low in today’s world and so are the increases on that amount, there should be a minimum in lieu of the formula amount if it is less than than minimum.”

            While I agree that it is too low, and there should be a minimum that helps poor people survive, that is not the case.

            http://search.usa.gov/search?affiliate=ssa&query=minimum+Social+security+retirement+amount

            Minimum Social Security retirement amount
            There is no minimum monthly Social Security benefit amount. For administrative reasons, we will not pay a benefit of less than $1. More Information
            ssa-custhelp.ssa.gov/…/minimum-social-security-retirement-amount

      • http://www.facebook.com/benjamin.fox.98892 Benjamin Fox

        Flashy, trashy and dashy the commie left. Over 33% of Doctors said they would quit and know some that have already. I drove a taxi for 20 years and I’d say about 40% of my fares from the airport were people who couldn’t get treated in Canada or would have died before they could get the care, so like you like to say with a f, I will say by saying buzz off you left wing nut until you get a brain.

    • JeffH

      What about the Second Amendment protections in the bill?

      Question: How does the above square with SEC. 2716 (2) and (3) of the bill? This section says:

      (2) LIMITATION ON DATA COLLECTION.—None of the authorities provided to the Secretary under the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act or an amendment made by that Act shall be construed to authorize or may be used for the collection of any information relating to—A) the lawful ownership or possession of a firearm or ammunition; (B) the lawful use of a firearm or ammunition; or (C) the lawful storage of a firearm or ammunition.(3) LIMITATION ON DATABASES OR DATA BANKS.— None of the authorities provided to the Secretary under the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act or an amendment made by that Act shall be construed to authorize or may be used to maintain records of individual ownership or possession of a firearm or ammunition.

      This language appears on the face to prohibit the use of any data collection with regard to use firearms. Does this section provide adequate protection for gun owners, and specifically for veterans?

      Answer: This language (section 2716) prohibits the use of the federal database for storing information about who has a gun (based on questions asked by a physician with respect to gun ownership).

      It does not prohibit the use of the database to determine who has a psychological “disorder” like ADHD or PTSD. And it does not prohibit the ATF from trolling the database for persons with ADHD and PTSD (independent of any issue of gun ownership) — and sending their names to the FBI’s database of prohibited persons because they are “mental defectives” (18 U.S.C. 922 (g)). HIPAA would not prohibit this “law enforcement function,” and ObamaCare may significantly broaden the list of people whose determination is an “official” determination similar to the VA psychiatrists who have disarmed 150,000 veterans.

      To say that the health care database would never be used this way is to ignore history. Who ever thought in 1993 — when the Brady Law was passed — that the federal government would soon begin denying military veterans their right to own a gun … not for any crimes committed, but because of a psychiatrist’s determination that such veterans suffered from PTSD?

    • Bonnie Norem

      This Obamacare effects the older people and the disabled! You younger people that say their healthcare hasn’t gone up is because most take through their employees and don’t know the real cost. My Medicare costs in last 5 years went up 300% and climbing so I dropped medicare and continued through my secondary at no cost. Next year medicare will go up for individuals to 2.35% and your SS will go back to the 6.2% (which I think should never been moved down a year or so ago to 4.2% and calling it a 2% tax cut for everyone and then keep harping that SS was going bankrupt). Certain people will also pay an extra .9% medicare tax. Business are going to be hit with a 2.3% tax on gross income and not net. Medical devices that cost over $100 will have a 2.3% excise tax added on and medicare and other insurances will not prove for many of them now. For people that need to go to ER will be allowed one visit only or the hospitals will be fined. The government is telling doctors and hospitals what they have to do and not what they are trained to do that would be best for their patients. People are going to be hit hard. I saw some of the high hitters was not necessarily the capital gains tax going to 23.8% but dividends, interest, etc going to be taxed at 43.4%. Sale a home you will be charged 3.8% government tax on purchase price. There is going to be a number of businesses that will not survive and people are someday going to wake up and ask how was I deceived?

      • Smilee

        samurai says:
        November 21, 2012 at 12:24 am

        More stupid statements from Sammie, if its garbage you believe it!!

      • sam1966

        You must be drunk on kool aid. How did my name change to Bonnie, smelly? Sheesh! Neeeeed to improve on your reading comprehension skills. Here is something else that deals with Obama bin Laden Care and unplanned parenthood.

        http://www.lifenews.com/2012/11/21/planned-parenthood-gets-obamacare-funds-to-push-sex-on-9th-graders/

        I guess that this is a form of decaying our morals and what our founders believed in by Obama bin Laden and an institution that practices eugenics. FOR GOD AND COUNTRY! 하나님하고 나라를 위해서!

        You need both love of country and faith in God to be a patriot.

        “We believe that all men are created equal, because they are created in the image of God!”

        Harry S. Truman

      • Smilee

        I guess you changed your name as my post is addressed to you and i never mentioned Bonnie, Bonnie does have a nicer sound through

    • sam1966

      Not only is it a good article, but many governors are stopping Obama bin Laden Care in it’s tracks. I know Indiana is one of them.

      http://www.conservativevideos.com/2012/11/governors-taking-a-stand-against-obamacare/

      FOR GOD AND COUNTRY! 하나님하고 나라를 위해서!

      You need both love of country and faith in God to be a patriot.

      “Those who are not ruled by God will be ruled by tyrants.”

      William Penn

      • Smilee

        They will not be stopping Obama Care just letting the Feds run it for them, so much for their pronounced worship of states rights in this case, They prefer federal to state run, them phonies

      • http://naver samurai

        It could be that way, but we’ll find out. BTW you said that the New York Times is a credible source? What about one of its reporters saying that it is OK for the government to steal?

        http://www.politicaloutcast.com/2012/11/paul-krugman-says-its-ok-for-governments-to-steal/

        Some reliable source, eh? FOR GOD AND COUNTRY! 하나님하고 나라를 위해서!

        You need both love of country and faith in God to be a patriot. You may also think that this could be a way for the states standing up for states rights. As in telling the fed that they will not be doing their dirty work for them. Just a thought.

        “I am greatful to Almighty God for the blessings which, through Jesus Christ our Lord, He has conferred on my beloved country.”

        Chalres Carroll

    • http://www.maineporcupines.com Sheila

      The real monster behind modern medicine is eugenics. read Alex Jones’ article “The Population Reduction Agenda for Dummies” http://www.prisonplanet.com/the-population-reduction-agenda-for-dummies.html

    • steve

      The real problem is a medical system out of price control independent of what party is in power. I don’t care if grease pits Denny’s or Mcdonalds have to raise their “food” 30cents

  • Harold Olsen

    The big lie about Obamacare was that it would allow everyone affordable healthcare. BS! It requires people to buy healthcare whether they can afford it or not. If they don’t have it, they pay a stiff fine and if they can’t afford to pay the fine, they go to jail. Last year, I heard that veterans with VA healthcare benefits could not count that as having healthcare. Now Obama wants active duty military to pay their own medical expenses, even if they are the result of being injured in combat. The other day he tried to justify this by saying that we now have an all voluntary military and everyone in the military is there because they choose to be and, therefore, should pay their own medical expenses even if they are from combat. He said if they were injured in combat they put themselves into that situation. He added that anyone who complains about that is being unpatriotic. I met a guy the other night who had just gotten out of the marines. He had served in Iraq and had been wounded. He just received a bill from the government for $78.000 for medical expenses for the treatment of those injuries. When he told them there was no way he could pay that, he was told that he’d better. Everyone knows that if you owe the government money, if you don’t, or can’t, pay it, you go to prison. Because of this, when Obamacare kicks in, I believe veterans will lose their VA healthcare benefits and if we go the to the VA we’ll have to pay our own expenses. It’s common knowledge that Obama, not to mention the rest of the left, hate the military. I can’t think of a better way to show that hatred than making them pay their own medical expenses after serving their country and putting their lives on the line.

    • Johnny

      I dont know what you are talking about. I am a veteran and I have never heard anything like that from the presidnt. Also, I would have heard from one of the miltary organizations if that was the case, If you are not a vet, I would keep my nose out of veteran’s affairs or write or comment on it. Health benefits is one of the main benefits that people in the military get. When I was in as a PVT-1, I made like 700.00 a month, and dont forget they took out 100.00 a month for the first 12 months as my part of the GI bill, so we wouldnt be able to AFFORD health insurance. The second thing is that only right wing media and propoganda believe you are going to jail. The law has no mechanism to collect or jail those who dont pay the fine. And you forget that the individual mandate was a republican idea until Obama picked it up and they decided to go against their own ideas if Obama thought it was a good idea.

      • Old Henry

        “If you are not a vet, I would keep my nose out of veteran’s affairs”

        I will keep that in mind the next time I receive a mailing from the DAV.

      • patriot

        Johnny its people like you that is causing the rest of us to loose all our freedom, i thought you said you were in the service ,you are a kool-aid drinker

      • Nadzieja Batki

        Johnny, apparently you visit the military hospitals quite often. If your injuries were the result of you being in war then you are welcome to healthcare, but in reading your post it appears that your health failure is your own causation but you still expect the taxpayers to subsidize you. The nice taxpayers that you take advantage of have not gotten wise to your parasitism.
        You are on the wrong site if you are going to play victim.

      • Flashy

        Nice Nad…when you volunteer to stand up and risk taking a bullet for this nation..you can complain about paying medical for vets.

        Don’t you ever dare refer to you or your like minded ilk as “patriots” when you sit there and say risking life for this nation isn’t worth medical care NO MATTER WHAT THE REASON FOR THE CARE ….

        Go back and sit in your frippin’ cage …your bananas are starting to get overripe…

      • Minnesota tax man

        Johnny you are correct. there is no imprisonment involved in obamacare. If you do not have healt care, you will pay a $500.00 penalty that will be reported on your federal income tax return. The IRS will collect the fine from you. It will reduce your refund, if you have one or it will increase the amount you owe. If you decide not to pay the $500.00 your penalty will increase by 5% per month for a max of 5 months per year plus interest. They will be coming to take your car, land, house. property or 401K, and sell it to pay what you owe. The IRS is currently about 2 years behind in notifications so you would pay over 50% in penalty.

      • sam1966

        Johnny, if you are a vet, you seemed to have been drinking a lot of kool aid. If you are, I say thank you (I have 20 years). But alas! It seems that you have traded in being a patriot to becoming part of the 5th column. When I joined the military in 1985, an E-1 was pulling home $600 dollars a month after taxes. You say how you couldn’t afford insurance? How is this possible when SGLI was taken directly out of our checks? It seems you have forgotten a few things. Here is something that tells how Obama bin Laden Care will keep unemployment high.

        http://www.nypost.com/p/news/opinion/opedcolumnists/the_ers_74rfAHiGtYU2nHmnllhotL

        Hopefully, this will awaken your dense lib mind from its 4 year sleep. FOR GOD AND COUNTRY! 하나님하고 나라를 위해서!

        You need both love of country and faith in God to be a patriot.

        “July 4th ought to be commemorated as the day of deliverance by solemn acts of devotion to God Almighty.”

        John Adams

        This means no other god or faith.

      • Smilee

        sam1966 says:

        Your not even capable of showing proper respect for our veterans SHAME ON YOU!!

      • sam1966

        If my saying thank you is bad smelly, you let me know. The thing is that he has given up his patriotism and is now following progressivism. They can never be patriots. Ooops! I just described a reason as to why you are no patriot.

        http://www.netrightdaily.com/2012/11/obamacare-mandate-to-cut-worker-hours-leaving-the-poor-worse-off/

        This is one thing that will happen, not just with the businesses listed in the article. Many businesses, like our local Wal-Marts, will start cutting hours of their personnel. This will leave the poor more destitute then they may already be at the present time. I guess that sheeple can never stray far from their delusional ,masters. FOR GOD AND COUNTRY! 하나님하고 나라를 위해서!

        You need both love of country and faith in God to be a patriot.

        “And whereas the greater part of said tribe have been baptized and received into the Catholic Church to which they are much attached, United States will give annually for seven years on hundred dollars towards a support of a priest of the religion, who will engage to perform for the said tribe the duties of his office, and also to instruct as many of their children as possible in the rudiments of literature, and the United States will further give the sum of three hundred dollars to assist said tribe in the erection of a church.”

        Thomas Jefferson
        Treaty with the Naniskansi (sp) Indians 1803

        OMG! This goes against that false belief of separation of church and state.

      • Smilee

        sam1966 says:
        November 21, 2012 at 12:44 am

        More stupidity from sammy. You seem to have gotten worse and more ridiculous since Obama was given four more years.

      • sam1966

        Wrong, wrong, wrong smelly. But Alas! What else is new? I can’t partially agree with you this time. You said that Obama bin Laden was given 4 more years, but it wasn’t by the voters. It was by the powers that be behind the scenes (Illuminati, Bildergers, etc.). You need to look at the bigger picture and not not much just what you see in the mirror. Here is something else about Obama bin Laden Care:

        http://www.forbes.com/sites/jamespoulos/2012/11/12/obama-religious-liberty-and-the-constitution/

        Looks like Obama bin Laden continues to divide this country. FOR GOD AND COUNTRY! 하나님하고 나라를 위해서!

        You need both love of country and faith in God to be a patriot. This leaves you out.

        “We recognize no Sovereign but God, and no King but Jesus!”

        John Adams

      • Smilee

        More stupidity from sammy. You have gotten worse and more ridiculous

    • eddie47d

      Your comment is BOGUS Harold . Look it up! No veteran will lose any benefit under the Affordable Health Care Plan because their VA benefits remain the same as with Tricare!

      • FreedomFighter

        The globalists have extended their population reduction programs from one-child policies to widespread abortion and contraception practices to the blatant act of committing genocide on the elderly in Britain as a beta test in preparation for the planet-wide implementation of elderly euthanasia in every national socialist health care system on the planet.”

        British NHS Euthanizes the Elderly and Obamacare Follows Suit
        http://www.thecommonsenseshow.com/2012/11/16/british-nhs-euthanizes-the-elderly-and-obamacare-follows-suit/

        Laus Deo
        Semper Fi

      • B rian

        yeah…. Ur right Eddie…. No vetran will lose any benefit…..

        The guy that went on and got his arm blown off trying to defend this country…. Get to come home and deal with watching the constitution he was defending and lost a arm over….. Get used as toilet paper. Hell….. He may even get indefinite imprisonment for objecting to what has been going on in his country while he was gone, and get labeled a patriot “terrorist”

        It doesn’t matter what you say or any other libracrats….. You get what you get…. The numbers don’t mater anymore……. When your tax bill at the end of the year comes…. It’s not gonna matter if you were libra-crat, rupub, indepentent, or not affiliated in any which way…… You tax bill just went up, you quality of healthcare just went down….. If your a vetran…… U get to be dissapointed with what you came back too….. Or you were already dissapointed about what you’ve been watching go on for years! Watching the guy your sworn to obey, stomp on the same thing you were both sworn to protect! And he’s not doing his job…. And you could have saved yourself one arm, if you knew this was going on while you were fighting to protect the constitution.

      • eddie47d

        You need to deal with facts instead of hemorrhaging BS B rian! Doesn’t change a thing I said. You and FF must have bought into the same Assumption Package which you must have been sold to you from a door to door salesman.

      • B rian

        Tell that to my one armed buddy! That is fact Eddie! Interestingly enough….. He still capable of working….. As a cashier. Even though he’s disabled. Missing an arm, post tramatic stress disorder…. And his boss the president of the united states of America crapping all over the constitution they both were sworn to protect! Good thing we have soldiers willing to uphold their oath!

        One franky

      • sam1966

        B rian, you have to excuse ed-duh as he was an abused child. Here is something telling about how Obama bin Laden Care will cost American jobs.

        http://www.godfatherpolitics.com/8034/thousands-losing-jobs-due-to-obamacare/

        FOR GOD AND COUNTRY! 하나님하고 나라를 위해서!

        You need both love of country and faith in God to be a patriot.

        “Let us raise a standard to which the wise and honest can repair; the rest is in the hands of God.”

        George Washington

      • B rian

        Sam…..

        Having cost of procedures dictated to doctors isn’t going to sit well…… A doctor spends 100,000s of dollars to go to school, then has to set up a practice, pay for the facility, insurance, medical devices, and then get told that he can only charge said amount for said procedure.

        What motivates these doctors to accept insurance from patients that are getting insurance from federal exchanges? They don’t do this now…. In network/out of network. The insurance doesn’t accept the doctor and the costs get moved to the patient!

        But hypothetically….. A doctor that doesn’t accept say…. Blue cross/blue shield….. What happens if the doctors form a union, that directly excludes certain insurances. Or….. If doctors can’t make their costs, why stay in business? A private practice has much high operating expenses per doctor than a hospital environment.

        If I was in school to be a doctor….. I may be thinking about changing my carrear path if I know that one is about to be over-regulated…… By over-regulated I mean limiting the ability of what direction and how I set up my business. Nursing is so much cheaper for schooling costs, pay is excellent, and doesn’t take as long. Why not shoot lower and pay less, and make excellent money…… I’m willing to bet its the talk of the medical schooling community right now!

      • eddie47d

        Back to fibbing again Samurai,err Sam1966? God won’t be happy with those Corporations shafting their workers or veterans lying about “lost” benefits.

      • sam1966

        Wrong, wrong, wrong ed-duh. I didn’t say anything about veterans benefits, or any other benefits in any post on this thread. But alas! Why let a good opportunuty to personally attack go to waste, eh ed-duh? This is for you and smelly as to why the states should implement Obama bin Laden Care. It may interest you as to how it will mean businesses standing up for their workers and how the fed would not be issuing certain premiums that the state run insurances could offer. Nothing but a ponzi scheme to tax Americans more.

        http://www.netrightdaily.com/2012/11/alg-is-urging-governors-not-to-implement-obamacare-exchange/

        FOR GOD AND COUNTRY! 하나님하고 나라를 위해서!

        You need both love of country and faith in God to be a patriot.

        “I have one great political idea. The best expression of it I have found in the Bible. It is in substance, ‘Righteousness exalteth a nation, sin is a reproach to any people.’”

        Frederick Douglass
        October 14, 1852

    • Old Henry

      And never, ever, forget that these scum-bag parasites voted specifically to EXCLUE themselves from this wonderful plan.

    • GALT

      As fascinating as all this is …….”that health care is NOT healthcare”……..and if it is
      true that it was written by the “insurance companies” which it was……..

      Why is it being referred to as “Obama Care “?

      Under the “new constitution”, ( 1938 ) statutory law ( U.C.C. admiralty/maritime) jurisdiction……statute’s do not compel performance……..the “implimenting REGULATION” compels performance……

      26 CFR 31.3402 ( p ) is such a “regulation” and any actual mandate would also
      require such a “regulation” to exist……….does it?

      The interesting part about this “new constitution” is that it shares a similarity to “religion”
      and requires “faith” for it to work………….if you BELIEVE that a statute requires “performance”…………( or are ignorant of the FACT that it does NOT )………then
      you will PERFORM as expected………..

      “Abandon all hope all ye who enter here.”

      Can your everyday average american be so easily distracted or misdirected
      for a period of ( 2012 -1938 = X ) years? ( you do the math ) while all the
      while complaining about the “constitution being missing”……….while harkenning
      back to the good old days of those revered mythical ( landed gentry alcoholic elites )
      founders, who met in a secret session for an illegal purpose in order to produce
      a document that would allow them to comply with the obligations imposed by
      the Treaty of Paris?

      Did the Miller Brewing Company actually produce a commercial where drinkers of
      the same beer engaged in heated debate over “LESS FILLING” v. “TASTES GREAT”?

      How is it possible for this:

      Dana Holding Corp.: A global auto parts manufacturer, Dana Holding Corp. will cut its workforce of 25,500, citing $24 million in additional healthcare expenses over the next six years. ( and the other lay offs )

      and this:

      Wal-Mart recently raised its health insurance premiums as much as 36 percent, putting coverage out of the reach of many of its employees. Its executives say employee hours will be cut. Likewise, the Kroger grocery chain is also reducing employee hours.

      To be TRUE at the same time?

      But when you start with THIS:

      First of all, allow me to disabuse you of the notion that Obamacare has anything to do with “health” care. Obamacare is not about health. It’s not about lowering the cost of health insurance. And it’s not about ensuring that everyone is insured.

      It is about locking more Americans into the clutches of the Big Pharma/Medical Industrial complex, providing more customers for Big Insurance and confiscating more wealth from individuals and businesses.

      and you “understand that” the original health care bill started out by proposing
      a “single payer system”…………..which if nothing else would have given the government
      the ability to “force” all these SICK CARE PROVIDERS……… to reduce costs…..or
      quit………

      while allowing the private SICK CARE insurance companies to compete for those
      who could still afford SICK CARE and really wanted SICK CARE………

      maybe the original plan…….wasn’t such a bad idea, after all?

      • FreedomFighter

        Original plan galt …

        The globalists have extended their population reduction programs from one-child policies to widespread abortion and contraception practices to the blatant act of committing genocide on the elderly in Britain as a beta test in preparation for the planet-wide implementation of elderly euthanasia in every national socialist health care system on the planet.”

        British NHS Euthanizes the Elderly and Obamacare Follows Suit
        http://www.thecommonsenseshow.com/2012/11/16/british-nhs-euthanizes-the-elderly-and-obamacare-follows-suit/

        Laus Deo
        Semper Fi

      • eddie47d

        Did that make you smarter FF by repeating that little ditty? That’s another one of your Assumptions instead of being factual.

      • GALT

        Interesting conjecture……..not sure why you would address it to me……or use the
        word “original plan”…………which references the “single payer option”………or my
        post which is a response to Mr. Livingston’s post………..

    • marie

      This is really hard to believe. Please tell me where I can verify what Obama has said this about veterans paying for their own health costs even if from injuries suffered in combat.

      • Flashy

        Marie..there is no verification…it’s another lie made up by the right wing extremists and American Taliban ….

        Wait until next week when the annual bogus claim about President Obama’s and the Moderate’s War of XMas begin …

  • KG

    Um… It was Bush who implemented the “wounded warrior pay up” plan. It was Rummy Rumsfeld who implemented a lot of the VA “benefit improvement” plans that former military has to deal with. Stop watching FOX.

    Let’s see…the last war we ACTUALLY won was run by Democrats. Kennedy was assassinated by a “…vast, right wing conspiracy….” to borrow a term from Hillary. Vietnam was actually run by RAND corporation. You know, there was a little known construction contractor in Vietnam who built most of the airports. The name of this company was Brown and Root.

    The truth is, we are ALL gonna die eventually. And, despite the pills his health buddies peddle here, we are ALL gonna get sick. Now, we as a Nation have chosen to “honor life”, so the 85 year old diabetic, with emphysema, still gets his heart transplant before he dies. But the lady in the emergency room, whose baby has an ear infection gets turned away because she has no health insurance.

    All of those “bidness entemanuers” who are laying off people are really stupid. So they would let their businesses suffer rather than make money. Yea, right.

    • Bill

      KG
      And do you have anything to say that is intelligent

      • KG

        Umm…. Bill is an a$$h@!#?

        Ad Homenem attacks are purely for the entertainment value.

      • OneGuess

        Of course…NOT. We all have experience with KG’s lame posts. This is just more of the same.

    • Nancy in Nebraska

      LIAR!!!

      • OneGuess

        I believe your post says it all…

      • eddie47d

        Well! Did Bill have anything Intelligent to say? Maybe he should have responded with facts if he had any.

      • B rian

        facts…… Hahaha! The ever elusive reality of libracrats….. Here is some facts.

        The largest tax increase in American history!

        http://dailycaller.com/2012/10/30/get-ready-to-fill-out-obamacares-individual-mandate-tax-form/

        The largest deficit in American history

        http://www.davemanuel.com/history-of-deficits-and-surpluses-in-the-united-states.php

        And Obama explaining in his own word how it was irresponsible and unpatriotic for a president to spend 4 trillion dollars in 8 years….

        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1kuTG19Cu_Q&feature=youtube_gdata_player

        And Obama was able to accomplish this in 4 years! Hahahaha!

        Facts and refrences! Seperates the liars from the manipulators, from those offering the “FACTS”

        Please refer to the deficit chart again to see where these cost have come from! Then check your middle class tax return next year to see how you faired….. If you make 50000/household and a family of 3, your costs are going up 5000-6000 per year, due to healthcare you cannot afford and fiscal cliff automatic spending cuts and tax increases. You wanted hope and change! Hope this doesn’t cause a complete depression, and change is what your going to have after paying all your taxes!

    • jurgy

      you’ll change your tune when you’re 85 ….

      • KG

        This is the tune you are looking for

        When I get older losing my hair,
        Many years from now,
        Will you still be sending me a valentine
        Birthday greetings bottle of wine?

        If I’d been out till quarter to three
        Would you lock the door,
        Will you still need me, will you still feed me,
        When I’m sixty-four?

        oo oo oo oo oo oo oo oooo
        You’ll be older too, (ah ah ah ah ah)
        And if you say the word,
        I could stay with you.

        I could be handy mending a fuse
        When your lights have gone.
        You can knit a sweater by the fireside
        Sunday mornings go for a ride.

        Doing the garden, digging the weeds,
        Who could ask for more?
        Will you still need me, will you still feed me,
        When I’m sixty-four?

        Every summer we can rent a cottage
        In the Isle of Wight, if it’s not too dear
        We shall scrimp and save
        Grandchildren on your knee
        Vera, Chuck, and Dave

        Send me a postcard, drop me a line,
        Stating point of view.
        Indicate precisely what you mean to say
        Yours sincerely, Wasting Away.

        Give me your answer, fill in a form
        Mine for evermore
        Will you still need me, will you still feed me,
        When I’m sixty-four?

        Whoo!

      • TIME

        Dear KG,

        I see you like PLAGIARISM, ~ so you get it ~ even if everyone knows who the artist is – You still must under the law ~ note whom the Artist / Author is.

        But then again, as 100% of your post are little more than worthless rhetoric and mindless rants about how the grass may be greener over there, ~ yet you have never been anywhere,
        Thus you base your simple minded rhetoric on your programming set forth by your masters like a good little slave / sheep, ~ did you get your pieces of silver for your good deeds of the moment?

      • KG

        To the people who were born under a rock, this little bit of poetic meter was done by none other than Sr. Paul McCartney. Whilst in the employ of a little known band of troubadours known as the Beatles.

        Tell me, how many ways can you say one plus one is two?

    • Netterella

      KG…it’s obvious you’ve never had your “own business” and have no idea of the spiraling costs involved for the owner of anyone that has their “own business”. It’s impossible to even call it your “own” anymore, because the government is totally taking over. Believe me, I don’t have to just watch Fox news to know what’s going on in the world. Just because your dearly beloved mainstream media does not report it, does not mean it’s not happening. I’ve worked in a doctor’s office and know 1st hand where healthcare is heading (thanks to Obamacare…we’ve seen it already and it’s hardly just begun) AND we have our own business…doing taxes. Believe me…when Obamacare starts coming into full fruition this next year…even YOU won’t know what’s hit you!!

      • KG

        I’m not a bidness person. Because to be successful in bidness you need to be ruthless. You need to look at customers as dollar signs, not humans. And employees? What ever you can get them to do through intimidation or harassment is OK. Because at SprawlMart, all we care about is you and your dollar$.

      • Nancy in Nebraska

        KG, it depends on what your definition of success is! Not everyone operates on evil priniciples! Those who are not evil will be hurt the most by obumasscare!!!

      • momo

        KG, if you had a brain you’d play with it. If I looked at my customers as dollar signs I wouldn’t have either customers or dollars. A customer is not stupid, they’ll sense when they’re not being treated fairly and take their business elsewhere. Stick to your union paid job, you’d never make it in the real world.

      • jt

        KG,

        Your assertion that

        “to be successful in bidness you need to be ruthless. You need to look at customers as dollar signs, not humans. And employees? What ever you can get them to do through intimidation or harassment is OK.”

        is way off the mark. I know plenty of successful business owners who are both respected and liked by their customers and employees alike. Many of these people also contribute their time, business resources and yes, money to benefit their communities and local organizations (little league, Boy Scouts and Girl Scouts, local schools, senior services, special needs providers, etc…) Your entirely cynical view of so many people who help to build strong communities is sad, indeed.

        What do you guys put in that koolaide that you serve at your local chapter marxist meetings, anyway? Try using cyanide instead…

      • eddie47d

        Then Netterella should have seen first hand how private insurers raised their rates numerous times before the Affordable Health Care Act was even authorized.She should have seen the imploding Big Pharma rates that came courtesy of private companies not government. The makers of Prozac charged 224.973% above the cost of manufacturing one pill. They made unbelievable profits but did you stop them? Zorcor (40 mg) had a 4,059% mark up. The ingredients cost $8.63 to make and they charged consumers $350.27. That is a heck of an increase. Lipitor (20mg) a 4,696% mark up by the manufacturer. They ripped off those in need for many years and made a bundle doing it. The public did demand change (generics) but that is the way our capitalist system works. Where anyone can rip anybody off and get away with it. Nurses make $60-120 thousand dollars don’t you think that reflects the cost of care? We don’t even want to get into what some doctors make and yes they might deserve those fees but that also affects health care costs. AHCP will be just as expensive because those same private companies have their foot in the door. Maybe you don’t know nearly as much about those costs as you imagined.

      • http://google rose

        So according to you KG, if a person is a business owner they are evil. So what would you propose? There to be no businesses and that only the government to sale their products or services to you? Because you think that only the government would have your best interests in mind? You definitely have a serious mental problem

      • Deborah57

        Netterella, I couldn’t agree more. I work in Info Svcs for a large hospital chain. This past year we’ve had several major projects all because of Obamacare. All of our major systems now must “talk” to each other so the government will know exactly what’s going on. The government is also rewarding the hospitals with money when each goal is met. You will be tracked from the time you enter the healthcare debacle, until you die. There is also a provision in the bill that calls for a chip to be implanted that will contain all of our medical records, and also, heaven forbid, real-time access to our bank accounts. I will never take the chip, and urge others to refuse also.

      • DaveH

        KG says — “Because at SprawlMart, all we care about is you and your dollar$”.
        What one would expect from a self-centered coercive Unionist. The fact is that Walmart provides reasonably priced products for their customers, and employs people who otherwise might have trouble finding jobs. Those employees were not hired at the point of a gun. They voluntarily chose to be employed by Walmart. You know — Voluntary — a concept that Unionists don’t understand.

      • TIME

        Dear KG,

        Yet again with some more of your mindless thetoric, I guess being a mushroom is a job you can be proud of, afterall its really quite simple all one must do is ~ just add waste material, water and darkness ~~ then whala, anyone can grow a big fat ~ KG Mushroom.

        Good for you, ~ but please do mark your package as: “needs to be cleaned before consumption” so no one gets ill from your Waste Material Mushroom rants.

      • Nadzieja Batki

        DaveH, HG believes that WalMart must give him his daily wants. How dare businesses require him to pay for things he wants.

      • KG

        Half of what you people said I said, I never said. Never have i spoke so much using no words. Did i really say ALL business people? Did I say ALL business is evil?

        I prefer to sleep at night. That’s why I don’t own a business. Thank GAOTU that there are. There’s no way I could make a living if there weren’t. All I ask is that you treat me with respect for the labor I sell to you. After all, all I’m doing is selling you chunks of my life.

    • http://PersonalLibertyDigest perfectlyaged

      KG…you are incorrect about the 85 year old man who is a diabetic and has emphysema will get a new heart. With the IPAB 15 member board…it will be determined who gets treatment or surgery. Obama told at one of his televised rallies about the young patient and the old patient who both needed a hip replacement and because of the longevity of the younger patient he/she will get the new hip replacement and the older patient will be sent home and told to take pain pills.

      When President Obama implements ObamaCare fully, it will be a death sentence, not only for the American health care system as a whole but also for many, many Americans, especially senior citizens, who will be condemned to an early grave because they won’t be able to get the medical care they need.

      ObamaCare takes health care decisions out of your hands and away from your doctor to treat you as he or she sees fit — ObamaCare will hand everything over to bureaucrats and politicians. You will become dehumanized, mere grist for the ObamaCare mill — not a human being, not a patient but as HHS already describes you, a “Unit.”

      And, if you are a “unit over 70,” look out because the ObamaCare bureaucrats-the IPAB death panelists-are coming after you first.

      If Obamacare survives, it will forever put a government bureaucrat between you and your doctor, restricting your treatment choices. In fact, just last month Obamacare’s death panels began their gruesome work. Called the Independent Payment Advisory Board (IPAB), its job is to ration your healthcare. It will save money by fixing prices so low doctors and hospitals won’t be able to deliver treatment. IPAB will limit surgeries, procedures, devices, medications and other treatments – whether or not your best interest is served.

      • KG

        I thought that if he had the money he could get any care he wanted? Sorta like when George Jones got a liver transplant even though he drinks like a fish. Isn’t that what the “free market” is all about?

      • Nancy in Nebraska

        obumasscare is INTENDED to eliminate people!!! They’re coming up with all kinds of ways to eliminate people!!! Check out obumass’s science czar, john holdren. He’s got all kinds of ideas to kill us! And don’t forget obumass’s hit list! You need to get with the program and understand that killing people is one of this administration’s biggest goals!!!

      • Walt

        3.5 years ago at the age of 67 it was necessary to have all 5 lumbars operated on due to some complications from a previous operation. 6 months later my wife and I moved out of the country to the Dominican Republic as we knew what was going to happen with Obamacare. Here we pay a total $950 a year for the both of us. My wife had to go to the hospital for 3 days due to an amoeba that made her sick. When she left, I had no idea what the co-pay was going to be. When I went to pay the co-pay I was shocked. 400 pesos (10 dollars) for 3 days in hospital, on IVs, private room with bath, shower, TV and telephone. We haven’t given up yet on America, as we send emails to our liberal friends all the time warning them of the impending doom. Of course, they send back hate emails, but we keep sending. I can only say that we are so glad we moved when we did. In the US, with our SS, which I and she put into for over 40 years, we would be living under a bridge in cardboard boxes. Here we are considered rich, as the average income here is $6,500. PLEASE WAKE UP AMERICA. PS By the way, every legal citizen here must have a valid picture ID to vote. This costs $50 and is a burden on the poor here, but in the last election 3 months ago, over 75% of the people voted. And, there are no individual taxes, property taxes, tax on necessary foods like eggs, milK, butter, bread, meats, vegetables etc. etc. Just a flat tax of 16% on everything else so everyone pays their fair share. LETS GET IT TOGETHER AMERICA BEFORE IT’S TOO LATE.

      • eddie47d

        Walter: Even Cuba has inexpensive and teriffic health care but they don’t rip off the consumer as our private system does. The Dominican Republic is on par with Cuba so your fleeing to the sunny beaches is questionable. Why not stay and fight the exhorbant costs in America. Why not take on Big Pharma like so many Liberals and senior citizens did? Why not make Health care CEOs more accountable here instead of running off to a foreign country? As has been brought up before the CEO of United Health Care retired with $1 billion 400 million in pension and benefits.You can challange “Obamacare” all you want but why didn’t you take those shysters who ran our system to task . You let them skate and then complain about high costs. Nothing more than hypocricy! You let those PRIVATE companies drain America’s pocketbook and then lay it in the lap of the AHCA. Those private companies only take patients under strict rules and could care less who “lives in a cardboard box under a bridge”. You got it backwards!

      • jopa

        perfect
        When it comes to the younger person getting the heart transplant before the 85 year old person that makes total sense to me.It would be very unlikely that an 85 year old patient would survive the surgery in the first place and the surgery in itself would be a death sentence.When I am 85 I don’t want to be on any heart transplant list.That would be selfish and I would be content with all of the years I have had.I already have my advanced directives in place and will not be put on breathing and feeding tubes to live in a vegetative state for years and be a burden on tax payers.Ask any doctor and they will tell you about the humongous vegetable garden our intensive care units have become and the billions of dollars it is costing taxpayers.These patients, many haven’t had any brain activity in years however the families just won’t let them go.Many out of love for their family member in this situation and many that actually want to keep them alive to collect their Social Security believe it or not.Time to wake up America and get your ducks in line and do the right thing for the future generations and forget about this ME attitude.

      • FreedomFighter

        Obama’s NHC
        Style Death Panels

        A top Democrat strategist, Steven Rattner, who served as President Obama’s lead auto-industry adviser, wrote an opinion piece in the New York Times entitled “Beyond Obamacare” in which he calls for death panels and that the implementation of these panel are inevitable.

        http://www.thecommonsenseshow.com/2012/11/16/british-nhs-euthanizes-the-elderly-and-obamacare-follows-suit/

        Laus Deo
        Semper Fi

      • eddie47d

        Isn’t going to happen freedom fighter no matter how many times you attempt to post your Assumptions.

      • Karolyn

        An 85 year old diabetic man with emphysema would not be eligible for a heart transplant anyway. Get real!

      • Smilee

        Nancy in Nebraska says:
        November 19, 2012 at 8:09 am

        Oh yes, they are going to be line them up against the wall and shoot them. I really have a hard time making myself believe anyone would make the statements you did as they are 100% lies. Shame on you.

        • Frank Kahn

          I have not read the massive pro-insurance company bill, but I have heard that there is a provision in it to have a group of government appointees that will study the cost / benefit ratio for specific treatments. This cost to benefit ratio will take life extension probability into account. If this is true, then they are a form of life / death panel. If they have the power to say that an extremely expensive procedure, that will save your life, is not cost effective for the amount of time it will extend your life, and therefor deny it, then they are a DEATH panel.

          I am not saying this provision exists, I am just saying that if it does then there will be death panels.

      • Smilee

        Frank Kahn says:
        November 21, 2012 at 3:46 pm

        I have not read the massive pro-insurance company bill, but I have heard that there is a provision in it to have a group of government appointees that will study the cost / benefit ratio for specific treatments. This cost to benefit ratio will take life extension probability into account. If this is true, then they are a form of life / death panel. If they have the power to say that an extremely expensive procedure, that will save your life, is not cost effective for the amount of time it will extend your life, and therefor deny it, then they are a DEATH panel.

        I am not saying this provision exists, I am just saying that if it does then there will be death panels.

        RESPONSE:

        This is an advisory group for that purpose only and it has no powers of enforcement that can only be done by congress or voluntary by the health care providers. As is typical with your post it is based on assumptions or misinformation and you are true to form on that again. There will be no death panels as no one wants them and that term is a description that originated with the far right radicals and misrepresented the bill when that clause was still in it as it really had nothing to do with end of life issues by anyone but you the patient and they wanted us to believe the government was going to make them for you and that never was the case and no one wants that so it will nt happen.

        • Frank Kahn

          When dealing with a stubborn and unruly child, one must use strong language and physical reinforcement. I am unable, physically, to focus your attention on the stupidity of your posts. Nor, have you ever shown any intellectual capability to discern truth from fantasy on your own, so it is highly unlikely that you will ever listen to the truth. You twist everything everyone says, you avoid the issue and you fail to comprehend what is written.

          I did not use misinformation in my post, it is possible though that you have been tainted by misinformation when making your incorrect assumptions stated here.

          It is not “just an advisory group”, if you have read the massive document to support that ridiculous statement, then show me the source and cite the exact page and paragraph for me to verify your statement.

          It is an Act, it is treated as Law, it gives Authority to government appointees. If such a panel exists, and it says that treatment X on patients above age Y is not an acceptable option, that treatment will not be paid for and therefor not done. And, dont try to say they cant enforce it, they use extortion in many situations to force compliance with their “suggestions”.

          And if your childish sensibilities are overwhelmed with the phrase “death panel”, we can use something more to your liking, how is “life continuation denial panel”?

          The fact is, the entire process used to create the “lets make the insurance companies richer” act was illegal, therefor it is not enforceable as a law. It is GARBAGE, it is DESTRUCTIVE, it is EXPENSIVE, we CANNOT afford it. It does not do one single thing to improve healthcare in this country. The majority of citizens were against it, those that is is supposed to help, by FORCING them to get HEALTH INSURANCE will be devastated by it. Many companies are having to raise the price of goods and services to cover the additional cost of the act, some are even considering reducing their full time employment personnel.

          So, Smilee, stop with the infantile attacks and maybe give us some truth and citations to prove your claims. You want someone, anyone to believe you then you have to give us a reason.

      • sam1966

        Ah yes! Care to cite a source on that smelly? Just another chance for you to attack and try to show off your mental state of the superiority complex? This is a little off of the topic, but it is a good example of what you lib/progs are about.

        http://www.lastresistance.com/533/california-dug-own-grave-and-may-soon-be-buried-in-it/

        FOR GOD AND COUNTRY! 하나님하고 나라를 위해서!

        You need both love of country and faith in God to be a patriot.

        “I believe the Bible is the best gift God has ever given to man. All the good from the Savior of the World is communicated to us through this book!”

        Abraham Lincoln

      • Smilee

        sam1966 says:
        November 21, 2012 at 8:13 pm
        Ah yes! Care to cite a source on that smelly?

        THE LAW ITSELF IT IS ON THE GOV SITES.

        Just another chance for you to attack and try to show off your mental state of the superiority complex?

        BEING SUPERIOR TO YOU IS NOTHING TO BRAG ABOUT ANY STUPID IDIOT CAN MAKE THAT STATEMENT

        This is a little off of the topic, but it is a good example of what you lib/progs are about.

        YOU TELL ME IF YOU THINK YOU ARE SO SMART, NAW, YOUR Really to dumb too as you cannot even spell my name right and many others names, did you ever get out of first grade, bet you flunked that too.

    • http://personaliberty.com A-New-Hope

      I was a Captain in the Army during the Bush years in the AMEDD and disagree with these statements by KG. My healthcare before and after I went to Iraq was free. What happened after Obama took office may be a different story.

      • jopa

        KG; A very good friend of mine has been in need of a kidney transplant and he is a multi-,millionaire.He has been on a list for a very long time and there is no way he can just up and buy the next one available.I thought the same as you in the past that you could get the next one if you had the money. But not like that today.

    • OLD MAN

      SCREW YOU …….LIBERAL USEFUL IDIOT!

      • eddie47d

        Veterans benefits and Tricare remain the same A New Hope. Please look it up!

      • FreedomFighter

        The majority of NHS hospitals in England are being given financial rewards for placing terminally-ill patients on a controversial “pathway” to death, as this fact has not been publicly disclosed.

        http://www.thecommonsenseshow.com/2012/11/16/british-nhs-euthanizes-the-elderly-and-obamacare-follows-suit/

        death bonus — frakin sick bastages

        Laus Deo
        Semper Fi

      • eddie47d

        Still no “common sense” coming from FF . More unproven fear and smear!

    • Bev

      KG is a communist. He is a believer that people will always do the right thing for others and not worry about themselves. It’s the major flaw in communism. We are not wired that way. No wonder then that he loves Obama and all of his lies and distortions. I think they forgot to put the prefix ‘un’ in the Affordable Care Act. I’m just glad they didn’t try to make it expensive (sarc). KG is not worth arguing with. His head is up his butt and even if he would pull it out the feces would still be there covering his eyes.

      • KG

        Christ said “Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.”
        Carl Marx said “From each according to his ability, to each according to their need.”

        Satan said to Christ “Fall down and worship me, and all that you see shall be yours!”
        George H.W. Bush said ” Greed is good.”

      • eddie47d

        Does that make you a Fascist Bev if KG is a Communist? Private insurers have been increasing their rates for a couple of decades now. Complain to them if you don’t like what they charge. I think they are devious thieves who put huge profits before patients which is what Fascists do.

      • GALT

        Where as: a brief excerpt from the book Econned.

        “In 1776, Adam Smith published The Wealth fof Nations. In it he argued that the uncoordinated actions of large numbers of individuals, each acting out of self interest, sometimes produced , as if by “an invisible hand,”results that were beneficial to broader society. Smith also pointed out that self interested actions frequently led to injustice or even ruin. He fiercely criticized both how employers colluded with each other to keep wages low, as well as the ” savage injustice ” that European mercantilist interests had “commited with impunity” in colonies in Asia and the Americas.

        Smith’s ideas were cherry picked and turned into a simplistic ideology that now dominates university economics departments. This theory proclaims that the “invisible hand” ensures that economic interest will always lead to the best outcomes imaginable. It follows that any restrictions on the profit seeking activities of individuals and corporations interfer with this invisible hand, and therefor are “inefficient” and nonsensical.

        According to this line of thinking, individuals have perfect knowledge both of what they want and everything happening in the world at large,and so they pass there lives making intelligent decisions. Prices may change in ways that appear random, but this randomness follows predictable and unchanging rules and is never violently chaotic. It is therefore possible for corporations to use clever techniques to reduce and even eliminate the risks associated with their business. The result is a stable productive economy that represents the apex of civilization.

        This heartwarming picture airbrushes out nearly all of the real business world.”

      • GirlIQ

        From each according to his ability to each according to his need….obviously those with great abilities have greater needs.
        That’s how the elitist justifies the skimming off the top so Nancy Pelosi can fly around in publicly funded air force jets at her beck and call and how the Obamas justify expensive clothes and vacations on the public dime. Our hard earned money is being redistributed to the poorer of society as an avenue for the elite to skim theirs first. It’s obvious.

      • eddie47d

        That may be true but at first I thought you were talking about Wall Street cronies or Health Care Executives!

      • Karolyn

        It’s not hard-wired into us. that’s a cop-out. All humans are born with an innate goodness and the knowledge of how to truly live right and with love. Unfortunately, society corrupts, unless a child’s parents are enlighteed enough to know the truth.

      • Nadzieja Batki

        HG, Greed Is Good. It may make people create goals for themselves and strive to earn their livelihood and by buying things they provide jobs for all the artsy craftsy people and all the artists and all the foodies and anyone else who makes a living off people’s wallets.

      • eddie47d

        Greed is never good and only in the minds of those doing the taking.

    • MNIce

      KG, the people who run these businesses are not the fools you claim they are. “He who speaks to a matter before hearing the end of it, it is a folly and a shame to him.” We have no reason to believe you have access to the detailed expense and revenue projections these companies used to make their decisions. It makes no sense to spend $10 million to make $200,000 in profit when you can cut back operational expenses to $7 million and still make $190,000 in profit. You can get much better returns on the $3 million difference by investing it in a foreign stock exchange, or setting up a manufacturing contract in China or India.

    • WIA Ben

      KG-B, go d eat your Twinky !

    • http://naver samurai

      That’s impossible KG. By law, hospitals must treat people and cannot turn them away. Here is something that shows how Obamacare has made contracts with certain companies, though they were not supposed to do that.

      http://www.thehill.com/blogs/healthwatch/health-reform-implementation/268029-camp-subpeonas-records-on-pr-contracts-for-health-law

      I guess that big pharma is in Obama’s camp also. FOR GOD AND COUNTRY! 하나님하고 나라를 위해서!

      You need both love of country and faith in God to be a patriot. This leaves KG out.

      “Let not your children have reason to curse you for giving up those rights and prostrating those institutions which your fathers delivered to you.”

      Rev. Mathias Burnet

      • Smilee

        samurai says:
        November 20, 2012 at 12:34 am

        Hospitals have to treat you in an emergency room but they do not have treat you in all other cases.

        Obamacare does not contract for any health care with anyone except in Medicare Advantage plans and then only to approve them and set the premium amount that Medicare Pays. All actual Health Care is provided by the private sector, I am surprised you think otherwise but then you are not too knowledgeable about anything

      • sam1966

        Here is something for you smelly. Here is an article of the 10 things about the average American’s life under Obama bin Laden Care. It seems that you have missed these in your surfing the web. But then again, you are the least intelligent person on this site.

        http://www.americanthinker.com/2012/11/this_is_your_life_under_obamacare.html

        FOR GOD AND COUNTRY! 하나님하고 나라를 위해서!

        You need both love of country and faith in God to be a patriot.

        “We believe in the existence of a God, and in the immortality of the soul.”

        Thomas Paine
        Age of Reason

      • Smilee

        sam1966 says:
        November 21, 2012 at 1:06 am

        You sure wallow in all those far right propaganda sites and blogs that are intended to feed the hateful and biased people like your self and in your case it is working. Try looking for the truth sometime, seek and ye shall find the truth in a site that tell lies and this is another one of them that you so often refer us to as proof of your beliefs which also tells us that you believe lies and the truth is of no value to your twisted thinking. The truth shall set you free, try it sometime.

      • sam1966

        You are part right again smelly, but you are also part wrong. The truth shall set you free is true, but not what you perceive it to be. The truth, in question, is the Bible and what is in it and not your warped beliefs of truth. Neeeeed to study a bit more before posting. Here is something else that is the truth:

        http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Government/2012/11/15/Surprise-Jobless-Claims-Over-75000

        Just think, aren’t these the states where areas are being investigated for voter fraud? FOR GOD AND COUNTRY! 하나님하고 나라를 위해서!

        You need both love of country and faith in God to be a patriot.

        “With malice toward none; with charity for all; withn firmness in the right, as God gives us to see the right, let us strive to finish the work we are in; to bind up the nations wounds; to care for him who shall have borne in battle, and for his widow, and his orphan. To do all which may achieve and cherish a just and lasting peace amoung ourselves, and with all nations.”

        Abraham Lincoln
        Second Inaugural Address
        March 04, 1865

  • joev

    Livingston is absolutely correct. If people would take the time to do a thorough analysis, if capable, then they would see that this entire health care for all scheme is not worth the unread paper it was written on. The taxpayer is going to get shafted big time and our unemployment roles will rise. Great going folks!!

    • Nancy in Nebraska

      That’s the whole point!

    • GALT

      You worried about unemployment?

      Just curious but how many people are employed by……the sick care insurance providers,
      the Big Pharma sick care drug providers, sick care doctors’, nurses, administrators, hospitals and clinics?

      The “sick care industry” is estimated to be 1/5 of the U.S. economy………

      I’m sure that Mr Livingston is “correct” about something………

    • eddie47d

      What we had wasn’t working so where is the better plan? Health care employment has risen dramatically in the last couple of decades and that trend will continue.That is a big part of the costs along with CEO pay. Costs have gone up under the “old plan” yet I hear crickets about those increases. You didn’t whine about that yet when the same increases are implemented for more people under this new plan you scream unfair. Please don’t kid yourself that these private insurers wouldn’t be increasing their fees as they have done so in the past. That has been a given!

      • MNIce

        Until the 1970′s health care was affordable for the average American family. Even those on the low end of the scale could handle most routine expenses. What changed? The tax rates went up, and the labor unions discovered that it was a better deal to have employers buy health insurance with full tax deductibility as a labor expense than to have the employees buy it with no tax deduction. Also, the federal government started Medicaid and Medicare, creating vast constituencies of health care customers with little or no incentive to monitor the cost of their purchases. The Food and Drug Administration became made pharmaceutical and medical device development and production substantially more expensive through stricter regulations as a result of the thalidomide scandal in Europe.

        You probably didn’t spot the common thread to all of these. It’s the Federal government at the root of the high cost of health care, either directly through regulation, or indirectly by market-distorting social engineering

        State governments share the blame; many states in the last forty years began tacking on special interest group’s favored required coverage requirements, including insurance payouts for routine medical exams, contraceptives, optional cosmetic surgery, or conditions for which half the customers have zero risk, such as ovarian cancer coverage for bachelor men. Again, this drives up the price of the affected services because the insurance companies have limited options for reducing the price after the fact compared to the customer being able to get a better deal by shopping. The increased payouts translates naturally to higher health insurance premiums. Congress allowed the states to restrain the trade by writing laws prohibiting out-of-state competition from undercutting state-specified health insurance plans – one of the practices the interstate commerce clause of the Constitution was specifically intended to prevent. Obamacare takes all of these and assembles the worst of these abuses into its one-size-fits-all “qualified plan” requirements, which will not even have the review of our elected representatives.

        There is a fix, and it’s amazingly simple in concept: get the Federal government out of the health care business entirely, except to prohibit state laws restraining insurance trade across state lines. Replace the FDA with private underwriters – states may require underwriting for pharmaceuticals and medical devices, or the individual prescriber or customer may demand the same. It’s worked well for electrical equipment and appliances for decades. There’s no reason it can’t work in other safety-critical fields.

        The harder part is weaning the people off of Medicaid and Medicare. Medicare was sold as a program to remove the financial burden of providing medical care for elderly relatives from families. Instead, it merely adds a massive administrative expense both for the health care provider and the government, then repackages the bills as national debt and hands the liability to the grandchildren in the form of future high taxes, inflation and reduced economic opportunity. This is unjust; the grandchildren had no vote in the matter. Medicaid too often uncritically pays for everything, from emergency room visits to treat hangnails (I kid you not – it does happen!) to patching up after diseases caused by riotous living. Waste and fraud in both programs is rampant; conservative estimates place the annual cost in excess of $200 billion. Obamacare does nothing to eliminate the fraud; indeed, there have already been a number of con artists taking advantage of its vague, poorly written legislation.

        A better way would be to provide tax credits for contributions to private and local government-operated medical assistance charities. These charities would be able to place conditions on their clients to ensure they do not abuse the services, something government agencies have trouble doing. They would be more market-sensitive, and would do more to ensure fair pricing than all the regulatory mandates in the world.

      • MNIce

        Until the 1970′s health care was affordable for the average American family. Even those on the low end of the scale could handle most routine expenses. What changed? The tax rates went up, and the labor unions discovered that it was a better deal to have employers buy health insurance with full tax deductibility as a labor expense than to have the employees buy it with no tax deduction. Also, the federal government started Medicaid and Medicare, creating vast constituencies of health care customers with little or no incentive to monitor the cost of their purchases. The Food and Drug Administration made pharmaceutical and medical device development and production substantially more expensive through stricter regulations, using as an excuse the thalidomide scandal in Europe.

        You probably didn’t spot the common thread to all of these. It’s the Federal government at the root of the high cost of health care, either directly through regulation, or indirectly by market-distorting social engineering

        State governments share the blame; many states in the last forty years began tacking on special interest groups’ favored required coverage requirements, including insurance payouts for routine medical exams, contraceptives, optional cosmetic surgery, or conditions for which half the customers have zero risk, such as ovarian cancer coverage for bachelor men. Again, this drives up the price of the affected services because the insurance companies have limited options for reducing the price after the fact compared to the customer being able to get a better deal by shopping. The increased payouts translates naturally to higher health insurance premiums. Congress allowed the states to restrain the trade by writing laws prohibiting out-of-state competition from undercutting state-specified health insurance plans – one of the practices the interstate commerce clause of the Constitution was specifically intended to prevent. (The practice also creates a market for corruption of state legislators by insurance interests.) Obamacare takes all of these and assembles the worst of these abuses into its one-size-fits-all “qualified plan” requirements, which will not even have the review of our elected representatives.

        There is a fix, and it’s amazingly simple in concept: get the Federal government out of the health care business entirely, except to prohibit state laws restraining insurance trade across state lines, and regulate imports. Replace the FDA with private underwriters – states may require underwriting for pharmaceuticals and medical devices, or the individual prescriber or customer may demand the same. It’s worked well for electrical equipment and appliances for decades. There’s no reason it can’t work in other safety-critical fields.

        The harder part is weaning the people off of Medicaid and Medicare. Medicare was sold as a program to remove the financial burden of providing medical care for elderly relatives from families. Instead, it merely adds a massive administrative expense both for the health care provider and the government, then repackages the bills as national debt and hands the liability to the grandchildren in the form of future high taxes, inflation and reduced economic opportunity. This is unjust; the grandchildren had no vote in the matter. Medicaid too often uncritically pays for everything, from emergency room visits to treat hangnails (I kid you not – it does happen!) to patching up after diseases caused by riotous living without placing an incentive on cleaning up one’s behavior. Waste and fraud in both programs is rampant; conservative estimates place the annual cost in excess of $200 billion. Obamacare does nothing to eliminate the fraud; indeed, there have already been a number of con artists taking advantage of its vague, poorly written legislation.

        A better way would be to provide tax credits for contributions to private and local government-operated medical assistance charities. These charities would be able to place conditions on their clients to ensure they do not abuse the services, something government agencies have trouble doing. They would be more market-sensitive, and would do more to ensure fair pricing than all the regulatory mandates in the world.

      • Sirian

        eddie47d,
        “What we had wasn’t working so where is the better plan?” OK, there were two things that were brought up at various times and either ignored or scoffed at while both could’ve helped out more than most people realize. What were those two – elimination and or capping of “malpractice law suits” as well as implementation of full portability of health insurance across state lines. These two items, redirection of healthcare laws, would’ve had a major influence on not only health care costs but would’ve also made it so much easier on everyone – insured or not insured. You have to look at it from a doctor’s or a hospital’s point of view. . . malpractice coverage for either being drastically lowered or possibly eliminated would have an effect, financially, on how much is charged from either. The less they have to shell out to simply CYA the less they have to charge to cover that cost. The same holds true for making health insurance “portable”. Instead of only having one or two health insurers being the primary holders of control within each state there would be a much more competitive market created. The same as what happened with the phone companies years ago. Sure, it too, would as is so commonly put “evolve” but still, it would make health insurance for all much more affordable and accessible. But as long as the population can be misdirected by the “Santa Syndrome” that emanates out of Washington D.C., the possibilities of either of those two former proposals will ever come about – even considered.

        As a side topic, but interrelated as to why we are in the mess we are and arguments abound, jump over to this link and then think about it.

        http://legalinsurrection.com/2012/11/northwestern-u-marxism-conference-packed-with-teachers/#more

      • eddie47d

        All lawsuits should be capped at the inflation rate of a given year or something similar. Few people deserve multi-million dollar lawsuits although they are actually rare. Healthcare malpractice suits are less than 2% of their costs. Those lawsuits won’t end because there are always stories of doctors coming to work drunk or cutting off the wrong leg. You can’t stop people from wanting relief from foul play. I doubt if you could reduce malpractice suits below 1%

  • Dagger

    Bob, you hit the nail right on the head.
    I don’t believe there is a dimes worth of difference between legal and illegal drugs, they are ALL bad for you. Most drugs are little more than poison to the human body, yet, they are dispensed like candy to a deceived population.
    Thanks for the eye-opener, Bob!

    • Nadzieja Batki

      Dagger, yours is a typical teenage idiot response. Look up ER statistics on time and manpower spent on drug addled bodies that are hauled into the ERs for repairs.

      • Elevenarrows

        Batki, I think you misread his post. He seems to KNOW what drugs (legal and otherwise) do–they harm the body. I’m no teenager at age 45 and I can attest to the damage prescription drugs do since I care for an elderly woman who has a daughter-in-law who is addicted to prescription drugs. The daughter-in-law steals, plunders, lies and does all manner of evil to feed her addiction. The point is, there are far more “drug-addled” bodies robbing society of manpower and time, as you put it, than you care to admit and most of them, I suspect, are from prescription drugs.

        Whenever I hear of a shooting spree, I immediately wonder what “anti-depressant” the person was taking!

      • eddie47d

        Nice to hear from you Elevennarrows. My daughter in law (43) was in a car accident 2 years ago and they gave her over 15 pills a day and sometimes twice a day for pain. Her health went south and got worse. We took her to the hospital ( emergency) last month and they changed that amount because that was what was making her so sick. She now looks and feels 90% better.

      • Nadzieja Batki

        Elevenarrows, I read the post correctly. My advice to the poster is to make sure that he does not get sick or injured in the span of his life.

      • eddie47d

        Then how would private Big Pharma make their super sized profits Nadzieja?

  • Ron r

    KG ,trying to get the right away from the Fox/Fixed news talking is almost as hard as trying to convince e them that Abe Lincoln did not shoot John Wilkes Booth,and that the civil war was not about states rights . They believe Obama is a CIA plant and the white house moves to Kenya in January.

    • Randy W

      @ron r: trying to convince e(sic) them that Abe Lincoln did not shoot John Wilkes Booth,

      More revisionist history?

    • OneGuess

      It appears from your post that you have some serious mental problems. Seek help.

    • E. Horner

      Nothing to be said for you except you are a DA.

    • daniel

      Ron we can only wish the WH moves to kenya in January; sooner if I had my way. Of course you don’t like Fox News as they have a habit of disagreeing with the liberal/progressive agenda being imposed upon this country. Your idea of commentary and news must come fromthe likes of Rachel Maddow, Chris Matthews, and Ed Schultz.
      Your attempt at sarcasm was lost on me as I have never figured out yet as to why people would rather not listen or investigate news or even history as it is being made. People such as yourself have chosen a certain narrative in life with facts be damned. Empirical evidence knows neither party nor idealogical lines. It sort of sticks in the throat of those that would argue against it.
      Benghazi Barak and company has shown a propensity for misdirection and deception and I use thise terms just to be nice BTW. This administration is throwing more people under the bus in order to sheild the mighty O. The unACA act is just as costly and more so than has been described and yet when all else fails blame A. Fox, or B. Bush. That is the best liberals can do. The Stock Market has nosedived since the re-selection. It happens to be apolitical as money don’t care which party you belong to.
      If you want to have some fun try amorizing the costs of the people getting laid off due to Ocare. You won’t be able to use democratic talking points as they don’t have them. You see money out of the economy at large has a cascading effect. That means in short every dollar taken out afffects others down the line.

      • marie

        Al Jazeera news (headquarters the tiny Arab country of Qatar) is the least biased news broadcast, unbelievable as that seems. RTnews is also good b/c their (Russian) bias is opposite of our US news bias.

      • eddie47d

        KG’s point either went over the Conservatives heads or went whistling through their ears and out the other side. You all know the rumor drill that Obama is a bonafide Muslim,that he wasn’t born in Hawaii,that he is gay and so forth. Now if you still don’t comprehend then bend down grab you backside ….well you know the rest!

      • Nadzieja Batki

        marie, so you mean that their lying is better than our own leftist media lying?

      • Smilee

        sam1966 says:
        November 21, 2012 at 8:35 pm

        More propaganda sites so it is not hard to see why you are so dumbed down and so totally lacking in the true knowledge. Your pathetic

    • Nancy in Nebraska

      It wouldn’t be hard to convince me that Abe Lincoln did not kill John Wilkes Booth! And YOU are a FOOL! THINK FIRST!!! Do you think you can do that or do you just say stupid things without thinking?!?

      • sam1966

        To ask a lib/prog 5th columner to think before they speak is a futile task indeed. Here is something about how not enough doctors will wreck Obama bin Laden Care:

        gma.yahoo.com/doc-shortage-could-cause-healthcare-crash-172501425–abc-news-health.html

        I guess that the 5th column is doing its best to destroy this country from the inside. What better way than to control healthcare, have death panels, give limited care to the elderly, etc. FOR GOD AND COUNTRY! 하나님하고 나라를 위해서!

        You need both love of country and faith in God to be a patriot.

        “Were you to ask me to recommend the most valuable book in the world. II should fix on the Bible as the most instructive both to the wise and ignorant.”

        Elias Boudinot

      • Smilee

        sam1966 says:
        November 20, 2012 at 12:54 am

        There never was any death panels and most likely never will be as no one is asking for them so there will never be any. What Sarah Palin labeled them death panels (false labeling) and the far right picked up,on in their rhetoric and propaganda. What was that in the bill before it was taken out was that Medicare would pay for end of life consultations with their doctor in advance of terminal illnesses and it was on a patient request basis only and had nothing to do with heath care treatments of any kind being denied. You can still do this if you want but you have to pay for it yourself now. Never did the bill address any end of life treatments or limiting them, it was then and is now after the bill was passed a decision between you and your doctor and you have the last say so. Your hatred of government is very deep and you lack of concern for the truth seems to drive you to lying about this.

      • sam1966

        Wrong, wrong, wrong smelly. Here is an article showing how the Illuminati, Bilderbergs, and Obama bin Laden plan on thinning out Americans.

        http://www.godfatherpolitics.com/8053/austerity-measures-to-begin-in-ohio-next-year/

        FOR GOD AND COUNTRY! 하나님하고 나라를 위해서!

        You need both love of country and faith in God to be a patriot.

        “Our liberty depends on our education, our laws, and habits…it is founded on morals and religion (Christianity), whose authority reigns in the heart, and on the influence all these produce on public opinion before that opinion governs rulers.”

        Fisher Ames

      • Smilee

        Smilee says:
        November 21, 2012 at 8:54 pm
        sam1966 says:
        November 21, 2012 at 8:35 pm

        More propaganda sites so it is not hard to see why you are so dumbed down and so totally lacking in the true knowledge. Your pathetic

  • Chris Condon

    My guess is that Obamacare will prove to be unworkable and unaffordable very quickly. Its proponents think that it will soon become institutionalized in America life and last forever. Lots of luck.

    • Nancy in Nebraska

      It is unworkable and unaffordable. And it probably will last forever! But the REAL purpose of obumasscare is NOT to provide healthcare to the masses!!! It’s purpose is to CONTROL and DICTATE!!!!!!! The fine print in the thousands of pages contain many things that don’t even pertain to healthcare! obumasscare is nothing but a transfer of wealth and power!!! Power being the bigger of the two!!! obumasscare gives obumass his own private little army to carry out his dictates!!! I think they underestimate the American people!!! There WILL come a time when the American people wake up and say NO MORE!!! And the destruction that they have wrought will destroy their way of life just as it destroys ours! They may think that their lives will go on just fine from their ivory towers or their bunkers but they are mistaken! satan, the one they work for, will destroy them even as he destroys us! They think they are so smart but they are the biggest fools of all!

      • sam1966

        This could even affect how much we pay at restaurants to eat.

        http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2233221/Dennys-charge-5-Obamacare-surcharge-cut-employee-hours-deal-cost-legislation.html

        FOR GOD AND COUNTRY! 하나님하고 나라를 위해서!

        You need both love of country and faith in God to be a patriot. This article would be another one for ed-duh and smelly to read also.

        “The moral duty of man consist in imitating the moral goodness and beneficence of God manifested in the creation towards all of his creatures. That seeing as we daily do, the goodness of God to all men, it is an example calling upon all men to practice the same toward each other.”

        Thomas Paine
        Age of reason

        Sheesh! Sound like a Christian and not an atheist, deist, or agnostic.

      • Smilee

        sam1966 says:
        November 21, 2012 at 8:51 pm

        More idiotic and untrue statements from Sammie

    • Smilee

      Chris, Nancy and Sammie

      You so full of hate and your statements on this law are all not true. Even this year and it has not fully taken effect as yet is that the insurance companies had to refund some of your premiums because they exceed the 15-20% overhead rule which reduced last years premium costs to these people who received them, rates on Insurance premium increases are at a ten year low for next year, We were told when the Medicare part C premiums (The Medicare private plans) would either go up or be dropped when the government under Obamacare reduced the payments to them to equal original Medicare costs (14%) but they did not as is now known as it is open enrollment for them until Dec 7th. The CBO calculations say it will reduce costs by over a trillion dollars over ten years when fully implemented and made Medicare solvent for 8 more years from 2016 until 2024. You ignore all this and insert your own facts which are not factual but pure propaganda. Sad that so many believe the propaganda over their truth but your hatred of government and really your fellow man whom are “We the People” aka the government. I would encourage you all to be seekers of truth.

      • sam1966

        Neeeeed to look in the mirror on that remark smelly. What I’ve posted about Denny’s is true and you cannot deny it, so you go into personal attack mode, just like any other 5th column traitor and coward. Here is also some more truth about companies having to cut staff to afford Obama bin Laden Care:

        http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012/11/16/medica-supply-giant-stryker-corp-makes-pre-emptive-strike-against-pending/

        I guess you don’t mind having companies getting rid of staff to meet the demands of Obama bin Laden Care. What a waste of time dealing with you and your less intelligent mind. FOR GOD AND COUNTRY! 하나님하고 나라를 위해서!

        You need both love of country and faith in God to be a patriot.

        “That religion, or the duty which we owe to our Creator and the manner of discharging it, can be directed by reason and conviction, not by force or violence; and therefore, all men are equally entitled to the free exercise of religion, according to the dictates of conscience; and that it is the mutual duty of all to practice Christian forbearance, love, and charity towards each other.”

        Virginia Declaration of Rights 1776

      • Smilee

        sam1966 says:
        November 21, 2012 at 8:51 pm

        More idiotic and untrue statements from sam

  • JimH

    The biggest lose we will pay for with Obamacare is more loss of our Constitutional freedoms.
    Little by little they whittle away.

    • jon a.

      i have a question how will they make the homeless pay for obamacare,
      or are they going to lock them up for not buying healthcare.

      • KG

        The Republicans have a plan…it’s called “the final solution.” One of their former leaders used it to great effect many years ago. -Dr. Strangelove

      • Nancy in Nebraska

        KG, you are an idiot!!! The election is over! You can leave now!!!

      • Flashy

        Nancy…you are correct. The election is over, the People gave President Obama his mandate, and they resoundingly joined the people of Massachusetts (60% approve of their state version of Obamacare health program) in wanting national health.

        A whining minority of Americans adhere to the TP principles of fear, hate and ignorance. Most Americans want to move forward. As we always have. We don’t tear down this nation as the extremist right is wont to do day after day. We Americans see flaws…yes, and our view is let’s fix it and continue forward.

        If you don’t want to join in and move forward to the future of promise this nation has always held, then sit in the corner and let the real workers fix it for your benefit.

      • momo

        Flashy says: “If you don’t want to join in and move forward to the future of promise this nation has always held, then sit in the corner and let the real workers fix it for your benefit.”

        The only thing you’re going to lead us to flashman is oblivion. Your only prescription is tax and spend, your only vision is a socialistic state. You sit here and argue ad infinitum about what amounts to nothing, without even knowing that both political parties are two sides of the same coin. And guess what they’re taking you and I and everyone else in this country for a ride, a ride from which we will never recover. The only promise this nation holds is for deadbeat politicians who continually deceive and steal with the aid of people like you who spew political propaganda that offers them cover for their deeds.
        The fiscal cliff is only the first of many problems that face us. Coming soon thereafter is the debt ceiling debate, again, only this time Obama might say its irrelevent because the debt ceiling is unconstitutional. Will our credit rating be lowered again, the rating companies area already signaling it will be. Debt, debt and more debt that’s the answer for everything, the world is awash in a sea of red ink. We’re at 16 trillion and climbing, by the end of Obama’s second term its estimated the debt will be over 20 trillion. Your debt prescription will only lead to the deathknell of this country.

      • moonbeam

        I was wondering the same thing, jon a. Homeless people will not be filing any taxes, which is where you get caught with your pants down complying with obamacare. We have to show on our tax returns if we have health insurance or not. If you don’t you pay a fine. Can’t pay the fine? Obamacare says you go to debtor’s prison. Oh what fun that will be. Three hots and a cot next to an ax murdering rapist.

        I’m telling you, I look for people to start taking their money underground until BO is gone and obamacare is repealed.

      • Nancy in Nebraska

        flashy, the WHOLE election was a FRAUD!!! obumass is NOT my president and he has gotten NO mandate from anyone other than the welfare queens who want their freebies!!! he is an ILLEGLLY sitting president(?)!!! he was NEVER qualified to even run!!! The WHOLE thing is a farce!!! Our government has been infiltrated by the enemy and they are destroying and dismantling our country!!! Fools like you have heard the truth and deny it!!! I guarantee you that one day you will regret your words and choices!!! Life as you know it is soon coming to an end!

        • http://www.facebook.com/tony.newbill1 Tony Newbill

          Nancy heres how they are slowly going to move International Bond Investments away from the USA , this is going on in both China with them Buying Tons of Euro Bonds and now the UAE and soon the Dollar in the USA will be rejected and the Fundamental Transformation to a New world Trade currency will be upon us and Hyper Inflation on the Dependency of foreign Supply will usher in the Obama Nationalization of the USA Free market system placing us all in the full control of the Federal Government and the dreams of Obamas Father will be for filled !!! http://www.asiaone.com/A1Business/General%2BNews/Story/Mega%2Bsukuk%2Bissue%2Bcreates%2Bripples%2Bhere.html

        • Smilee

          Nancy

          Dream on silly lady, when you wake up he will still be your president, that is the choice of the majority and the minority can not change it, oh you can dream it which seems to be your denial of reality.

      • Nancy in Nebraska

        smilee, if I ever wake up from this NIGHTMARE, he STILL won’t be MY president!!!!!!!!!!!

        • Smilee

          You do not have a choice sweetie, your friends and neighbors made that decision for you.

      • sam1966

        Wrong, wrong, wrong smelly. He is not the POTUS, but just the COOTUS and pretender. Here is something he did right sfter he was fraudulantly re-elected.

        http://www.freedomoutpost.com/2012/11/obama-held-first-meeting-after-election-with-socialists-and-communists/

        FOR GOD AND COUNTRY! 하나님하고 나라를 위해서!

        You need both love of country and faith in God to be a patriot.

        “The cause of America is in great measure the cause of all mankind. Where, say some, is the King of America? I’ll tell you, friend, He reigns above.”

        Thomas Paine

      • Smilee

        sam1966 says:
        November 20, 2012 at 1:04 am

        In that simple little mind of yours you may perceive it that way but in the real world he is the President of the United States despite your denial of the truth but then that is your trade mark as the truth never did mean a thing to you

      • sam1966

        Wrong, wrong, wrong smelly. Ah yes, the personal attack. Classic 5th column strategy. When you have no facts on hand, attack them.

        http://www.foxbusiness.com/on-air/willis-report/blog/2012/11/15/half-your-paycheck-government-2013

        FOR GOD AND COUNTRY! 하나님하고 나라를 위해서!

        You need both love of country and faith in God to be a patriot.

        “For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son. That whosoever believeth in him shall not perish, but have evrlasting life.”

        Jesus Christ
        John 3:16

      • Smilee

        sam1966 says:
        November 21, 2012 at 1:25 am

        More idiotic and untrue statements from sammie

    • Nadzieja Batki

      Flashy, which “People” gave O a mandate? I know I didn’t and there are quite a few posters that didn’t either.
      It is funny in a pathetic way that with every comment you make you admit that you are either eating at the public welfare trough or plan to push your way in.

      • Flashy

        I’ll make a note of it Nad. let’s see…twice receiving over 50% of the vote, 332 electoral votes, 26 of 33 Senate seats won…does not constitute a mandate because Nad and the extremists are saying it doesn’t….Hokayyyyyyy

      • eddie47d

        Although I don’t think that Obama has an absolute mandate he did win on most fronts. When Bush won in 2000 he claimed he had a mandate while losing the popular vote. Even then he bragged about it and used it to his advantage.

      • moonbeam

        Flashy, have you not seen or heard the documented evidence of obama VOTER FRAUD in Virginia, Ohio, Florida and elsewhere ??!!!! The Soros voting machines that registered BO when the voter picked Romney? Numerous incidences of this occurred in addition to illegals voting TWICE???!!!! They couldn’t even verify their mailing addresses when asked!!!!!! Poll watchers even told of people they saw more than once and names uttered more than once while voting. Our voting system is a complete and utter fraud, compliments of the illegal alien Kenyan LIAR in chief. BO won by fraudulent means, not the Will of We the People.

        Look it up!

        • Smilee

          There is no documentation or proof of any fraud, This is pure fiction and rhetoric spread by those who refuse to believe Obama won fair and square.They are losers who are in denial and angry, sore loserss In the end all the fraud that will actually be proven will be so small that it will not make a dent on the vote totals and the outcomes of the election will be unchanged. Get over it!!!

      • eddie47d

        I love it Smilee when they say the same person voted twice and they saw them doing it. Wouldn’t a poll worker have kept them from doing that if their name is checked off? I think it was Hedgehog last week who said he had proof that they cheated in Cuyahoga County Ohio. I looked it up and proved him wrong.That is why I don’t believe a lick of them because they lie so much.

        • Smilee

          I totally agree

      • Smilee

        Flashy says:
        November 19, 2012 at 9:46 am

        Over 50% of the vote in both elections for Obama. Since the nineteenth century only
        F. Roosevelt, Dwight Eisenhower and Ronald Reagan have had those percentages in both elections of theirs . He is there with the big boys and that is quite impressive.

    • alpha-lemming

      Ummm…. 50% is not a mandate. But just for [expletive deleted] ‘n’ giggles… Please explain how BHO has a mandate but Congress doesn’t. Didn’t the same enlightened flock that voted for Chairman Oba-Mao also vote for the status quo, divided Government from the last 4 years??…. or was that where all the voter fraud occured??…

      • Flashy

        it is reflected in the Congressional races Alpha…26 of 33 senate seats and, despite the intense and blatant gerrymandering calculated to weaken the voice of the People, the GOP lost House seats. And, the writing is on the wall for them. Compromise and accept the agenda and policies proposed by President Obama, or lose the house in 2014.

        BTW…if it wasn’t a mandate and a rejection of the GOP…why are the GOP leaders falling over themselves to accept Obama’s overtures?

      • eddie47d

        They are too funny Flashy. G Bush did the same thing only louder so is he the “Bush-Mao”? Their name calling and hatred for the President knows no level of decency.

  • Frank Poindexter

    No, not STOP watching Fox….START watching Fox if you want fair and balanced coverage from BOTH sides…..The mainstream media doesn’t report everything in order to protect the leftists..When you see an interview on Fox you will see in most cases they have a lib and a conservative giving their views from each side…..They report…you decide…… You can always flip over to one of the mainstreams and see for your self the difference…..A closed mind seldom learns anything……

    • Nancy in Nebraska

      Nothing on tv is fair and balanced! fox might give you a little more but you still aren’t coming close to getting the whole story!!! The Internet is the only source of real truth but that won’t be so for long, thanks to obumass’s latest secret executive order! The dictator will remove all sources of truth!!!

    • Johnny

      when I watch fox, i see four or five republicans gang up on them so they dont even have a chance to say anything, if they start making a good point they cant rebutt, the fox news person will say hey sorry but we are out of time… I watch fox and laugh because all they ever do is attack Obama and the democrats and then say they are fair and balanced. I would say that that is not fair and balanced reporting. All I have seen and heard on fox for the last month is benghazi, when there is an investiagtion going on. They are the first to jump on any little thing and try and make it sound like there is some conspiracy. Especially Hannity. They make things up as they go

      • Nadzieja Batki

        You are the one who is making things up as you go.

      • eddie47d

        So true Johnny with FOX so give it a rest Nadzieja. I have also seen that done on MSNBC talk shows so we are screwed either way.

      • Smilee

        The Sunday before the election they had Rove on bragging about the landslide Romney was going to have on Tuesday and when Obama got more electoral votes than he predicted for Romney’s landslide then on the following Sunday they had little to say about the election, Nothing about Rove or what went wrong and then turned to attacking Obama which was old news mostly. If that sounds fair and balanced then maybe you could explain just how that is. The reality is they are very biased. Other Sunday shows did a lot on the election

    • Hedgehog

      Why not watch RT? I started watching when one poster on Liberty Digest mentioned it. I’m glad I did, what’s more, I like the format. Try it, you might like it.

    • jopa

      Frank;;I will be Frank Frank.Most of the Republican politicians are afraid to go on the other stations like MSNBC CNN CBS etc. in that they won’t get the questions in advance to prepare their narrative.Like the old Bush days when all the news conference questions were handed out to the audience.All those tough talking clowns are actually even afraid of Rachel Maddow.That is just too funny.When a Democrat goes on Fox there is usually two or more against him or her and they actually don’t give them ample time to speak.When they know they are losing the debate they either shout over their guest or break for commercial.If you tell a lie over and over and over somehow it becomes the truth.That’s why they claim” fair and balanced” over and over and over and over.

  • Smitty

    Excellent article, Mr. Livingston. And it’s always interesting to read the comments here. My comment is: You can’t get blood out of a stone. Where have we heard that before ? Well, when nobody is left working, there will be no income to pay for this Obamacare control, and that’s what it is – control. Welcome to Socialism, all you who voted for this fake in Washington.

  • mary beardslee

    I agree about Obama care the insurance companies and Pharma companies wrote the plan. I have tried to watch Faux news and I cannot believe much of what they report, particularly when Karl Rove is involved. MSNBC is a liberal station as much as Faux is a rt. wing station. I find news on the internet from both sides of the aisle and then decide. I do not see any real journalism on news media on the idiot box. Fortunately I have never had a closed mind which happened to my dear republican party and will continue if they do not work with demos and figure out a way to get our economy moving. Jobs-Jobs—

    • Nadzieja Batki

      Your comment reads as if it were a required class assignment for today.

      • eddie47d

        ….and your fact-less comment Nadzieja says NOTHING!

      • Nadzieja Batki

        eddie47d, unless we see that you are sitting next to her, you are defending the indefensible.

      • eddie47d

        Did you enjoy saying nothing again?

  • Clif

    KG is one of those “my mind is made up, don’t confuse me with the truth” people who can’t get his head out of his rectum long enough to see what’s real

  • Jeff Hutson

    The worse piece of legislation to ever come down the pike. Too bad there weren’t more legislators who had a spine when Nancy Pelosi said “Sign it and you’ll know what’s in it!” and we thought(Shame on us”), that the reason we elected them to office, was to represent us! They all swear an allegiance to the United States and uphold the Constitution, but I doubt but a handful have actually read it. To most of them, It’s only words. Teach your kids and grand kids well, for they are the future and encourage them to get involved.
    Proud to be an American

  • moses

    the gov can go too hell i am not doing anything i am not paying anything , islam wet backs dont have too pay alone with 1000s of companys ,gov they dont have too pay or do anything , that is breaking the law right there ,so no american person or company should not buy into this bull[expletive deleted] from russia,hitler ,islam. i got my health care i got the liveing word of GOD jesus christ i dont need there devilsh murdering ripoff dead killing care.

    • eddie47d

      Did you come down from Mt Sinai for your winter break? ….Just kidding bud!

  • Old Henry

    The special needs tax will, ultimately, not be needed anyway as the commie foreign national’s Death Panels will begin euthanizing these kids.

    The sad part is that we thinking true Americans will have to suffer along with the brain-dead commie anti-America scummy idiots who think this plan, and the anti-America Communist foreign national, is nirvana.

    I hope I am around long enough to watch the Death Panels begin their euthanizing while they scream but, but, but….

    • eddie47d

      Still playing the creepy old Fascist in the trench coat Old Henry?

      • Nadzieja Batki

        eddie47d, you are the one that is petrified that those death panels already exist. Supposedly if those Ocare rationing boards are not talked about they won’t happen.

      • eddie47d

        Now Old Henry has Nadzieja to back up his lies . Two peas in a pod who should be eating them instead of shooting them through a pea shooter.

      • Flashy

        Nad…care to cite the passages which refer to these so-called “death panels”? haven’t you been beaten up enough trying to defend and repeat this lie of the extremists?

      • Smilee

        Nadzieja Batki says:
        November 19, 2012 at 11:26 am

        The bill is law now and there is no so called death panels in it. I new law would now have to be written to make it law and no one, and that includes Democrats are seeking it so why do you make souh idiotic statements.

  • Walter

    Bob I hope this is a typeo ?? . Papa John’s CEO John Schnatter said the cost of his pizzas will rise between 11 and 14 cents and worker hours will be reduced. He expects the law to cost his company between $5 billion and $8 billion annually. Should be million???

    • http://www.boblivingstonletter.com/ Bob Livingston

      Dear Walter,

      You write: “Bob I hope this is a typeo (sic)?… Should be million?” You are correct. The article has been corrected. Thanks.

      Best wishes,
      Bob

    • Flashy

      gotta love these businessmen who will cut hours and lay off workers to avoid an 11 cent increase if they passed on 100% of the cost … of course, when business falls off because of people no longer willing to support their ilk and ways of shafting their workers, they’ll blame healthcare costs…

      • Deerinwater

        It doesn’t make much sense does it Flash?

        If you want to demand a a better price for your product, you raise the value of it and not lower the value while demanding more.

      • momo

        Its called cutting costs, fool. What do you think progit margins are? A gazillion percent? I can tell the only thing you’ve run is your mouth!

      • Flashy

        Momo….if everyone bears the cost, how does it create a disadvantage ? What will happen is any decent worker will leave Dennys and Papa johns, service and quality will go lower..and people will go to the competition where, for a mere 11 cents more, they get better, faster service, and higher quality .

      • momo

        You’re assuming you’ll get better service and a better product.

      • Tim

        Flashy, Have you ever been in business for yourself? Have you ever worked for a business that had small profit margins? Are you jealous of people that take a chance, risk their own finances, put in countless hours away from family, to start a business and make it successful?
        I tried once as an electrical contractor, and it is was not easy. I had a great reputation for excellent workmanship and inexpensive. But being inexpensive was my failing point, my business was in a small town with a lot of compitition from non-licensed, fly-by-night contractors. I could not afford all the taxes, business insurances, or my own family health insurance, to me there was way to much risk, so in less than a year, I sold out and went back to work for a big company. I feel a lot more secure working for someone else. But I have a great deal of respect for those that have made a success of their business. Yes there are companies that will take advantage of people, but they are, in my opinion, out-numbered by the honest ones.
        In summary- If you have not been in their shoes, don’t make rash judgements.

    • jopa

      I would gladly pay fifteen cents more for the pizza if it meant the workers got healthcare.Trouble is I mainly give my business to the local shops run by the mom and pops of our area and they are much better pizza’s, hoagies, grinders, zeps, and mozzarella sticks.

      • GALT

        plus no franchise fees, or forced buying of ingredients and supplies………ever
        wonder why an intelligent capitalist ( hard working aspiring private owner of the means
        of production ) would BUY a franchise?

    • Karolyn

      Oh, poor Poppa John. He won’t be able to add on to his 40,000 sf castle. :-( That’s really stupid, have all of the price increases to this point stopped people fro buying his crappy pizza?

      • S.C.Murf

        You sound very jealous big K, easy girl. If you had the business and the money you’d do the same thing K, add on to your house. This is a man that sold everything he had in this world to start the business and didn’t know if he would even make it. That’s the American way girl.

        up the hill
        airborne

      • Karolyn

        S.C. – Read my post below where i answer the jealousy questio before it was even asked. I in no way shape or form am jealous of greedy people. Wouldn’t want their lives for anything. It just makes me sick that these people havve obscene amounts of money while children in this country go hungry. If I had millions, you can bet i would give a good part of it away. Who needs more money than they can ever spend? Money is worthless if it isn’t helping someone or buying something.

  • Operation mind crime

    Why is it that if one disagrees with a liberal agenda it’s automatically because of FOX?

    Ron Paul was neither a liberal or conservative and he was the last hope .

    People get yourself off the political dumb machine.

    It’s a game. Neither of the two parties want anything other than power and control. It’s a matter of technique .

    If there were truly a possibility in change then don’t you think we would have seen it ?

    Patriot Act was bush jr and that lead the way for NDAA 2012 and the TSA goons. And many other things. You think it’s any different now?

    One is no better than the other as they are both broken and controlled by outside powers.

    • KG

      Your right. Ron Paul was actually a Nazi.

  • DaveH

    Bob says — “If the medical establishment, insurance companies and Obamacare writers wanted Americans to be healthy, they’d promote healthy eating, healthy lifestyles, vitamin D supplementation, natural supplements and alternative health choices”.
    Exactly. In my entire life, I’ve never had a doctor ask about my diet. They could care less if you take care of yourself or not.

    • Flashy

      Obviously you nor Bob has listened to Michelle Obama and her healthy food programs. DaveH…if your doctor hasn’t spoken about food selections and diet…seems you should look for one that has more than an online medical degree…wait a few months and Obamacare will improve your choices for quality healthcare…

      • momo

        You live in a dream world flashman. Doctors don’t talk about nutrition because, one they haven’t been trained that way, and two it would cut into their profits!!!!

      • Flashy

        Wow..two that state doctors don’t talk about diet, and one that tells me what my doctor and i talk about. Wow…

    • eddie47d

      What! Dave H must have stepped out! No nasty comeback reply yet? Oh well the day is still young.

      • Flashy

        Eddie…he’s looking for a Mises link …

      • http://gravatar.com/bychoosing Wake The Sleepers(Jay)

        Or perhaps he grew weary of arguing with fools!

  • http://www.facebook.com/peter.b.rutkiewicz Peter B Rutkiewicz

    So far our insurance premiums went down and so did the payroll deduction. Health care for profit has changed to Health Care for a “limited” profit. Nice. Competition between health insurance companies is a myth. They all winked at each other and went up on rates hand in hand before Obama-Care and they wanted only healthy members so they could maximize their profits.

    • http://wildeyguns.com The Christian American

      The governments businesses, Obamacare and the like; out of every tax dollar the government absorbs, 60 to 70 cents is spent on government overhead and only 30 to 40 cent is utilized on the things that it’s intended. If I came to your door and try to sell you a deal where you could invest 100 dollars and get back 30 to 40 dollars, would you take it? That’s EXACTLY what we do having this kind of fascist government.

      • eddie47d

        Unless you were making money off of health care investments (private insurers) you lost big time at the doctors office or the emergency room. We all paid dearly for the benefit of those investors so don’t fool yourself into thinking they are any better.

  • Norm

    A 5% obamacare tax at resteraunts sounds like a bargain to me. That’s 5 bucks on a $100 tab. These are the same clowns that triple the cost of a bottle of wine with a straight face.

    • Nadzieja Batki

      Envious that you couldn’t spend that same kind of money on a bottle of wine. It is their own money, thief.

      • Norm

        I do spend that money on wine because I like wine and I can afford it.
        The point is they have no remorse over ripping people off, but they moan about how a 5% increase on a bill will drive all their patrons away.

      • Karolyn

        Why are you so stuck on that “envious” crap, Nadzieja? You have no clue how much money anybody posting has and whether they are envious or jealous. It’s like a broken record with you.

  • http://wildeyguns.com The Christian American

    I completely agree with everything Mr. Livingston has said but there is another angle. For Obama, Obamacare buys him votes from the predator side. People living off other people and feeling that’s just fine. Obamacare is a business and any successful business has assets and liabilites. They all try to reduce the liabilities and in this case they’re sick people. A study of health care in Germany from 1870 to 1945 was done buy Dr. Micozzi, the man that headed up the Museum of Science and Medicine in DC. This study showed how doctors began to “work for the state” instead of the patients, to a point where eugenics came into play leading to forced abortions and ‘forced” euthanasia, killing of people whose lives were not worth living. There are no bounds that one human being will not justify doing to another. America, under Obamacare, is following the same road that Nazi Germany went down. Hitler wanted a super race to make his empire successful so he decided to breed one. That’s what will happen in the “In God we trust” country. Read and believe John 3:16. Every front says we’ll needed it.

    • FreedomFighter

      Obamacare = Agenda 21 population reduction program

      Laus Deo
      Semper Fi

    • eddie47d

      Its the private insurance companies who raised the rates and denied people on their insurance policies. They were the predators who left millions without care Mr unAmerican Christian! Private insurers are the ones who reduced their “liabilities”.

      • http://wildeyguns.com The Christian American

        In the 50′s health insurance was strictly between the buyer and seller. The government made the payment on health insurance a tax deduction. Insurance companies and businesses jumped on it. They gave their employees health insurance in lieu of money for raises. Government was not involved, became added overhead, until medicare etc., and we all know where that has gone.

      • eddie47d

        Are you saying that these private insurers should be allowed to keep people off their rolls once they become sick for they have done that. Also Its not Medicare that is bad for it has been successful. Its the unethical doctors and insurance companies who did double billing and from outside scammers who costs them millions. That is fixable and is being done to weed them out.

        • http://www.facebook.com/tony.newbill1 Tony Newbill

          Eddie47d it’s too bad that we cannot find a compromise between the ANTI growth Environmentalists and Private Business sector economy to expand the supply of sustainable food and energy that are inflating the cost of Living . If Obama was Not so manipulated by extreme forces in the Academic Technocratic society telling him that Policies need to be Oppressive with Regulation so Earth is Saved from the expansion in supply and Overpopulation he would see that developed societies like the USA in the world are sustainable population growth , look at the CIA Fertility Website , https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2127rank.html
          , it shows the rate of Population growth is sustainable in developed nations like the USA but when you factor in the Illegal Immigration then it becomes Unsustainable . So its a Matter of education to teach the Philosophies of Humanities relationship with a Finite Earth in the Undeveloped Nations that needs to be realized with the Family Planning life cycles , and that allowing the right kinds of technologies that would stabilize supply and lower Inflation of essential needs like food and energy would not harm the earth . But the goal of these Environmentalists is to oppress the quality of Life and reverse the Rate of Population growth , they even say so , and they are wrong to bring this policy to fruition . Have you seen the Drug supply shortages that are now reaping havoc on the senior citizens ? Its due to the Oppressive EPA regulating the Life right out of the Business sector producing these abundant supply !!!
          Here is a Audio of a Obama Adviser that explains the Health care Bill that even COBRA rejects , http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2012/apr/26/world-population-resources-paul-ehrlich
          COBRA rejects Obamacare ,
          http://www.cobrahealth.com/Obamacare-rationing.html

      • Smilee

        Medicare’s overhead is about a third of what private insurance has. Today (not in the fifties) it has better coverage’s with a supplement plan and the total of Medicare premium and supplement premium amounts to about half of the plans to the under 65 crowd even with all its choices which is nothing but market gimmicks. When in 2004 they added private plan choices to Medicare (Medicare C) in lieu of Medicare B which drove the price of these plans 14% more than the orgininal medicare. Obamacare eliminated that differential and used that money to extend the life of Medicare eight years, eliminating the donut hole in Medicare D and added preventive care and annual exams. In the election and still the GOP said he stole from Medicare to pay for his health care plan and in a way he did but it went back into Medicare to make it more solvent and greatly improve its benefits. Romney calls this cost savings in his businesses but here he calls it theft and you wonder why so many did not trust him and did not vote for him.

  • Wayne Millard Sr.

    I sure hope those who voted for Obama are happy with having there money ripped off out of there retirement.

    • http://wildeyguns.com The Christian American

      Their money? They are predators that think it is just fine to live off other people’s money and they’ve got a hitman called government to take it from them

    • Smilee

      SS has not been reduced and probably will not be and coverage’s in Medicare have improved under Obama so what the heck you talking about It is the GOP that wants to reduce or destroy them. It is not Obama seniors have to fear but the GOP. You know not what you talk about, typical of many on here.

      • http://gravatar.com/bychoosing Wake The Sleepers(Jay)

        The idea was for the GOP to drive them straight into Obama’s arms; Mission accomplished! Who says wolves and hyenas can’t work together? Another myth shattered.

    • walter agard

      My Retirement is ok.I did’nt have any problems.

  • Nanci

    Many valid points made here, some were idiotic and some gave me a good laugh. We are all in this together. The good, the bad and the ugly. No use belly-aching, it is what it is. The America I grew up in, is gone. She’ll never return and we have condemned our children and our grandchildren to a debt that will never be paid. We are like the Roman Empire, to be destroyed from within. God help us.

    • Norm

      You’re right obamacare is the law.
      The country will survive just as it did in the Clinton years. The good news is that Romney lost. The 1% didn’t buy the election. Raise the damned taxes, cut spending and quit the crying.

      • Nadzieja Batki

        Maybe you should read 2 Chronicles 10 in the Bible so you can get an idea what happens when Taxes are raised for what governments believe are good reasons for their supposed good works projects.

      • eddie47d

        Yes it says “we are going to be tougher on you not easier”. Remember when Joseph went to Egypt and worked for the Pharaohs. He predicted hard times and told pharaoh to raise taxes 20% because of the impending drought that was coming in 7 years. He raised those taxes for land so they could grow enormous amounts of food which was placed into storage containers. When the 7 year drought came and went they had survived as a people because of those taxes.

      • Norm

        Maybe you good Christians and Jews should read your cryptic literature in he area of helping your fellow man.
        Jesus Christ was good, it’s you warped self serving Christians who reek of evil. Ditto for super Jews.

      • http://gravatar.com/bychoosing Wake The Sleepers(Jay)

        Norm says: Raise the damned taxes, cut spending and quit the crying.

        Oh, the damned taxes will be raised, Norm, don’t you worry your pretty-little-head over it. But don’t count on the spending being cut. And the crying? The crying will continue…

        • wheels

          You are Oh so correct about the rise in taxes and the continued spending. But watch revenue fall from the loss of jobs and more companies closing there doors. With the increase in nobama regulations, businesses will find it costs more to stay open and profit will drop off to nothing. AT THAT POINT, WHY STAY IN BUSINESS IN THIS COUNTRY?
          I’m affraid we are doomed, as nobama understands so little about business and the people with which he has surrounded himsel being just yes men that when the whole thing goes down the drain they will still be patting each other on the back for the great job they did.

    • Nadzieja Batki

      So you are rolling over and playing dead. Somebody that knows Nanci check to see if she was ever living or just going through the motions of living.

    • http://gravatar.com/bychoosing Wake The Sleepers(Jay)

      Hate to agree with you Nanci, but you are correct. Btw, if America as we knew it, is gone, why do we still call her America?

  • Nottakenyan

    America does not need whorehouses.

    With the current administration, we get screwed ever day!!!

    • Nottakenyan

      Typo error, EVERY and not ever!

      • Smilee

        Just lay back and enjoy, lot more fund that bitching.

    • walter agard

      Hey,all over the world have them (Nottakenyan).

  • RevNowWhileWeCan
  • scubadoo

    I’ve learned man will fail us, but my father, who is in heaven, will not! Also, I would rather believe there is a GOD and find out there isn’t than not believe and discover there is.

    • eddie47d

      Although we should all help ourselves first we should also take care of those in need. The Bible references that hundreds of times. The Bible also warns us about the wealthy reaping monetary gains at the expense of others. Which is exactly what the private health care industry has done to this nation. Especially Big Pharma who not only charged too much but some made us sicker while doing it. Unconscionable profits were their motive not the well being of the customer buying the drugs.

      • http://gravatar.com/bychoosing Wake The Sleepers(Jay)

        eddie says: Which is exactly what the private health care industry has done to this nation. Especially Big Pharma who not only charged too much but some made us sicker while doing it. Unconscionable profits were their motive not the well being of the customer buying the drugs.

        So now we have transferred that privilege to Big-Government, who has proved time and again that it ought not be in the business of running a business. Btw, do you think Big Pharma will just go away? Think again. Big Pharma is here to stay, and Big Government will see to it…Nothing has changed, eddie. The plutocracy continues!

      • eddie47d

        What are you doing to stop Big Pharma? If nothing then you are part of the problem.

      • http://gravatar.com/bychoosing Wake The Sleepers(Jay)

        What am i doing to stop big Pharma? Well, for starters, i don’t buy its products! How about you?

    • deerinwater

      Well? ~ there is a God, but he don’t really care which world you live in, this one or the next. ~ so it will be through the power of your faith that will determine how well you fair such a journey.

    • GALT

      Seems like a rather simplistic an ill considered choice………which also requires
      unstated assumptions which may be unwarranted……if we knew what they were?

  • Dr. Kavorkian lives

    Here’s the objective: get em in, drive up.the costs, pass the bill to the youth, drive a wedge between youth and elderly, then euthanize based on this predictable affordability.

    • deerinwater

      The banker that you seem to defend win either way so way support them?

    • born again kevorkian

      I think this is what you mean: force them into the program, drive up the costs through poor diet and agribusiness generally, further debilitate through pharmaceuticals, pass these exorbinant costs on to the younger generation, stoke up their (the young) animosity towards these costs, encourage the young to tolerate death through cultural inculcation in the media such as murder video games, television shows, etc., wdesensitizes them, then turn them on the sick, infirm and elderly (read social security) and “gently” euthanize them “humanely.”

  • http://bellsouth.net Ann

    Since we have no choice, what is the least expensive way to get the darn supplement so we wont get fined?

    • GALT

      How do you know you will be fined?

      • http://gravatar.com/bychoosing Wake The Sleepers(Jay)

        From Sunlen Miller: During an exclusive interview with ABC News’ Jake Tapper today, President Obama said that penalties are appropriate for people who try to “free ride” the health care system but stopped short of endorsing the threat of jail time for those who refuse to pay a fine for not having insurance. “What I think is appropriate is that in the same way that everybody has to get auto insurance and if you don’t, you’re subject to some penalty, that in this situation, if you have the ability to buy insurance, it’s affordable and you choose not to do so, forcing you and me and everybody else to subsidize you, you know, there’s a thousand dollar hidden tax that families all across America are — are burdened by because of the fact that people don’t have health insurance, you know, there’s nothing wrong with a penalty.”

        Under the House bill those who can afford to buy insurance and don’t’ pay a fine. If they refuse to pay that fine there’s a threat – as with a lot of tax fines – of jail time. The Senate removed that provision in the Senate Finance Committee.

        Mr. Obama said penalties have to be high enough for people to not game the system, but it’s also important to not be “so punitive” that people who are having a hard time find themselves suddenly worse off, thus why hardship exemptions have been built in the legislation.

        http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics/2009/11/interview-with-the-president-jail-time-for-those-without-health-care-insurance/

  • Thinking About

    It may surprise many but seniors pay $99.90 and up for medicare a month and the average social security check is $1230, so do the math. Yes there are going to be some job losses with AFA if the health care in the US starts having less personel to handle claims. The number in the health insurance claims in the US compared to the number of personel required in Canada is a big difference. These cost gets added on to the cost of health insurance. By the way, the trend in the last few years has been more focus on preventive health care and will probably go more in this direction.

    Another problem, corporations such as McDonald’s, Walmart and the like can complain about the cost to the corporation to provide health insurance but Walmart has in the past encouraged their employees to enroll in Mediaid programs for their health care. Why should these corporations receive corporate welfare in the form of having health care provided by the states.

    AFA is the law, though not perfect at least now the USA will be in line with other nations by having their citizens covered for health care. Work to improve the health care of everyone and to have individuals taking responsibility of the cost of health care.

  • roger

    why all the worrying and wringing if hands??? just say no and don’t buy it…….
    many states are nullifying obama-care, and many more are following……
    when will you just say; NO DAMMIT, I’M NOT PLAYING ANYMORE.!!

    • Norm

      Don’t buy insurance.
      But if you need medical care, and you can’t pay, stay home and don’t count me and responsible others to pay your way.

      • roger

        I never said i don’t have insurance, i just aint gonna be told by my servants to buy their insurance. and, if they tell you that you have to pay for someone else’s medical expenses, again, JUST SAY NO!!!!!!!!!!! do you get it now??

    • Thinking About

      The answer to those who do not take responsibility of providing health insurance coverage is do not depend on the rest of to pay for your health care, we are tired of paying for health care of everyone getting passed on to those who pay.

    • Smilee

      roger says:
      November 19, 2012 at 12:09 pm

      States cannot nullify the bill period. THE court has already ruled on that. They can, however, allow the Feds to set up and operate the insurance exchanges within their states or they can do it their selves. Some states will do that and most are GOP controlled. Do you remember a time when the GOP gave up so easily on states rights. You will still have to pay the fine if you can afford insurance and if you opt out of buying insurance the states can do nothing about that now that the SC has put its OK on it. Obama care is here to stay, you people had your best shot to stop it in the last election and you fell way short of that goal. Time to get over it and move forward.

  • roger

    should have read “wringing of hands”. sorry

    • GALT

      Te absolvo…….go forth and sin no more……..

      Be better if the host provided a wisywag edit function…….

  • Karen King

    Do all of you realize that this so called Obamacare is really gonna cost us in 2016? By that time it will be mandatory that we have some kind of insurance and if not, then if we don’t take Obamacare, then we could be put in jail for up to 5 years and get slapped with a $250,000 fine? I got this directly from Obummer’s campaign websight. And get this, if you make less than $15,000 a year or an illegal immigrant, then this won’t affect you! Ain’t that something?

    • Smilee

      You did not get that from Obama’s website as that is not there. You will not go to jail and your tax in lieu of insurance will not be more than the cost of insurance and to start with much less. That is in the law, your baloney I do not know where you could have gotten it

  • http://www.facebook.com/tony.newbill1 Tony Newbill

    What was the disconnect between the CEO average tax rate and the highest tax rate that came together in 1980 and since then has tracked each other ?

    http://www.againstcronycapitalism.org/2012/11/100-years-of-income-taxes-a-simple-infographic/

  • http://PersonalLiberty Christopher Lang III

    So let me see….each Walton worth 8 billion dollars and I have to pay for their employees government subsidised healthcare???…Papa John is only going to make 8 million not 10 million but he wants me to pay for his employees government subsidised healthcare….and so on….its nothing but greed plain and simple….I pay for their healthcare now same with 7-11, stop and go, olive garden, taco bell….if these people paid their employees a decent wage and healthcare the welfare system would be cut by over 60%….so who is costing who more money????

  • Karolyn

    Of course, cut employees’ hours and lay them off. Whatever it takes to keep those CEOs rolling in more dough than they could possibly ever spend in one lifetime! And don’t come back at me saying I’m jealous. i really wouldn’t want the life of a CEO for all the tea in Chna. If I had their money, I would give most of it away. If I’m jealous of anything, it’s not having enough money to give away large amounts. (Not yet, anyway! :-))

  • Karolyn

    Bottom line as far as I’m concerned is to educate people, especially kids as soon as they start to talk, to take proper care of their bodies. If this was done, there wouldn’t be so many people on the “healthcare’ rolls, and we wouldn’t need this conversation.

    • roger

      Aslo educate all who will be educated to the LIMITS OF CONGRESS’s POWER TO MAKE LAWS;
      Article 1 Section 8 Clause 17;
      To exercise exclusive Legislation in all Cases whatsoever, over such District (not exceeding ten Miles square) as may, by Cession of particular States, and the acceptance of Congress, become the Seat of the Government of the United States, and to exercise like Authority over all Places purchased by the Consent of the Legislature of the State in which the Same shall be, for the Erection of Forts, Magazines, Arsenals, dock-Yards, and other needful Buildings;

      Hint; most of us don’t live where “exclusive legislation” takes place….

      • Smilee

        Roger

        That gives congress the power to make laws over the capital area (Washington DC) only in this clause and it does and it has nothing to do with the rest of the country. Obama care is covered over clause one of that article and section as the court ruled. You are real wrong on this.

    • http://gravatar.com/bychoosing Wake The Sleepers(Jay)

      It isn’t just obesity that is taxing the health-care-system, Karolyn, but a myriad of other irresponsible, life-choices. Such as; smoking, drinking, stress, risky-lifestyles, vaccinations, pharmaceuticals, genetically-modified-foods, war, ect…I could go on…

      • Karolyn

        I really was not talking about obesity but rather general healthcare. if more people were educated abouth the wealth of natural methods for healing, more would be well. Actually, though, I have seen an increase in the number of people who are interested in holistic health. A lot of people, especially older people, are starting to catch on and forego medications in favor of natural methods.

      • http://gravatar.com/bychoosing Wake The Sleepers(Jay)

        Agreed. I have, noticed an increase of medical practitioners who apply, as you said, a holistic approach, and apply pharmaceutical only as a last resort. We need to encourage this trend!

      • Karolyn

        The success of Dr. Oz’s TV show points to a very large audience of people (primarily women) who have become interested in taking charge of their own health. It is a really good sign.

  • Dave67

    I have a question for Mr Livingston and the rest of the conservatives who claim to be losing their freedom.

    Lets contrast 2012 with 1962.

    Look at the regulations on business
    Look at the marginal tax rates
    Look at personal freedoms

    What do you find?

    Were we a more moral country in 1962 when minorities knew their place? Women?

    This whole idea of a gov takeover of HC, losing your freedom is a huge farce and anyone can look at this data and come to the same conclusion…

    Conservatives lack the personal responsibility to pay for what they buy.

    • http://www.boblivingstonletter.com/ Bob Livingston

      Dear Dave67,

      This a non sequitur and logical fallacy.

      Best wishes,
      Bob

      • Dave67

        Bob,

        No, it speaks to the very core of this site. Can you look at 1962 and 2012? Who has more freedom and less taxes? You know the answer which is why you avoided the issue.

        2012 by far… You act like Obama is a dictator when in this country, we have a government with 3 branches and and a huge beaurcracy. This HC law is a small step in the right direction but you and the law’s proponents gloss over the reality of HC in America….

        The baby-boomer generation. They are retiring and dying and so that means they use more HC. The young workers entering the system are not there in numbers to offset those of the baby-boomer generation.

        You could be using this site to try and find a better system and possibly use ideas from another HC system that is rated higher than 17th in the world by the WHO. But your side and I am including the GOP on your side had the opportunity to do something from 2001-2006 about HC and your side did NOTHING.

        That is your record. If it doesn’t make money for big monied corp interests, its just not worth doing in your world.

        You can BS, Omit, put the fear factor on high if you want because you have an eager group of conspiracy and anti-American nuts here to listen but it would be nice if you offered something constructive to offer. Not this garbage.

        • http://www.boblivingstonletter.com/ Bob Livingston

          Dear Dave67,

          You write: “But your side and I am including the GOP on your side had the opportunity to do something from 2001-2006 about HC and your side did NOTHING.” You still do not get it, do you?

          Best wishes,
          Bob

      • Dave67

        BTW Bob, do you remember the story about the markets react to Obama’s victory that the writer used against Obama?

        Dow is up 200 points today… and guess what? Obama is president. Largest jump in months.

        But the writer won’t walk back complete crap like that article will he?

        No… Gloom, Doom, America is terrible under Obama and Democrats, complain, whine… blah blah blah…

        Try a new record, yours is broken.

    • Louis Lemieux

      Dave67,

      You’re quite right! A good knowledge of the outcome of Obamacare is something we will see only in years ahead. As for now anyone can come up with opposite conclusions. For instance if a country uses more soap than any other country, some will say the people there are cleaner, they like to wash more; or, some will say they are dirtier because they need more soap.

    • http://gravatar.com/bychoosing Wake The Sleepers(Jay)

      That made absolutely no sense, Dave. You obviously wrote it in haste, and while upset. Don’t worry, it happens to the best of us.

      • Dave67

        You are right about one thing… I am upset at conservatives lying, gloom and doom attitude since Obama as been in office. Conservatives have done nothing to help this country under Obama’s presidency. They have only tried to keep this country down so they can try and gain back power.

        Is about time these conspiracy, religious nuts get confronted.

      • Smilee

        Dave67 says:
        November 19, 2012 at 6:21 pm

        BRAVO!!!

  • wheels

    This so called affordable care act will prove to be not so affordable at all. It does nothing to contain costs and in one felled swoop will bring this country to her knees. One of the many
    DISASTROUS BILLS PASSED BY THE CURRENT ADMINISTRATION with more crap bills and EO’s to come. Each one nicking away at our freedoms until………………………

  • http://www.facebook.com/WizardKiller Mark Are Reynolds

    IF someone with a GUN comes to try and force me to purchase insurance to pay for these over inflated rip off hospital costs, they will be met with a GUN. Hey, that’s what the Founding Fathers put the 2nd amendment in the Constitution for…TO USE ON TYRANTS.
    So, if you want the job, come and get me.

  • Jimmy the Greek

    The only way to fix the system is to go to a single payer system , Nationalise all the hospital’s and get all the investors out of healthcare .

  • Child of God

    I consider myself a Christian first, then an American. As Christians we need to insure that we are allowed to voice who we are and what we believe in, even in the workplace. Even if others do not believe what we do, we have freedom of speech as well. As Americans, we should fight for our rights to speak what we believe and the government should not have the right to control how we worship, raise our children, or choose if we have insurance or not. These are our rights. I am employed and have insurance, but for the last four years my insurance has gone up and the coverage is less. Not only that, our raises were frozen and I now bring home less than what I did more than five years ago. I fear for my children, grandchildren, and for my husband and I. As Americans we need to work together to get back our country before it’s too late. I don’t know the stats. What I do know about is how this has affected me and my family. Wake up America! I did not vote for Obama or anything he stands for but we must work together, united as a Nation to better our Country for our children and their children and their children. We should set the example for our future Americans. Thank you Bob Livingston for keeping me informed about what our government is up to.

    • Matt

      There is a cure for that. It’s called “read some factual history”.

  • Elton

    Conservatives have one great fault, that is they think they can reason with liberal socialists. One cannot reason with airheads. They are either dependent upon government to take care of them or are members of the elite crowd…..

  • MD spouse

    Generally a good article, but needs one correction. The accusation that physicians are the recipients of lots of freebies and lucrative kickbacks for pushing pills, is wildly inaccurate. The landscape of relationships between doctors and industry is very complex. There are many subgroups, some of which – particularly those in administration, as opposed to clinical practice – are more likely to get “deals” than others. These often have more to do with developing administrative policy and assuring favorable research results, than with telling ordinary doctors what to prescribe, or when to prescribe it. Incentives may also be a little more strong among certain specialists and sub-specialists, who tend to get their first introduction to patients long after the potential for prevention or even reversal is largely gone, Believe it or not, natural cures and prevention cannot solve everything. But to say that physicians are a homogeneous group that the pharma industry pays to be in their back pockets, is grossly simplistic and smacks of an attempt to play politics with public education. I’ve had some exposure to the natural health industry, myself, and, as an organic lacto-vegan who lives a very prevention-oriented lifestyle, I can speak to the dark side of those who peddle chiropractic and herbal tea as a fountain of eternal youth and health. The sad truth is that everyone will die, and there are situations in which nothing but conventional medicine will work, or it will definitely work better than the alternatives. The optimal situation is one in which natural prevention makes the need for conventional medicine rare. However, we should be grateful that conventional medicine is there when we need it!

    My husband is a family physician. We have known each other since we were both in college. I saw him through the end of college, grad school, med school and almost 25 years of practice. He has worked in traditional, HMO, and integrative medical settings. He’s now 52 years of age, and still pulling very busy 11-hour days to make his practice financially worth while. (Remember that it took him until he was in his early 40′s just to pay off his student loans!) After his 11-hour days, he finishes the government and insurance busywork that he can’t get to during his “normal” hours, at home during the evenings and weekends. Abusive documentation requirements from both insurance companies and Uncle Sam – to “make sure he’s doing his job” – are making sure only that he has no time to actually treat patients. The electronic medical record, which was supposed to ease the paperwork burdens, is instead making sure that he now has even more work to do. The physical reality of working on a computer, because of the ways the programs are set up, slows him down (compared to the old paper record), and because he has access to so much more information, he is is burdened with even more legal requirements and responsibilities that have nothing to do with actual patient care.

    In all the years we’ve been together, neither husband nor any of his colleagues have EVER received ONE IOTA of “lucrative kickbacks”, no luxury vacations, no expensive gifts, or any of the other things you accuse doctors of slurping up to push pills. What he HAS received are small trinkets such as cheap alarm clocks with the drug name printed on them, or travel mugs or mouse pads with same. Oh, yes, there are the occasional dinners out paid for by the drug companies – usually to some restaurant that doesn’t serve vegetarian food (we’re both vegetarians) – and an entire evening spent having to listen to some sales hack drone on about research that’s been done on such-and-such a disorder and the comparative advantages of treating it with “Brand X”. Few doctors attend many of those. Yes, that’s a form of peddling influence, but I have to say that nobody from the natural care industry has ever offered us a dinner or anything else, to spend time listening to why their approach is better!

    My husband and I both practice a natural, prevention-oriented lifestyle, which I hate to say is rare among health professionals. But that doesn’t mean that physicians as a whole live drug-riddled lifestyles, either! Most believe in a combination of approaches, and would be thrilled if patients took better care of themselves. I’ve heard the statistic from several sources that once the average American begins taking one prescription medication, they wind up on five. 11-12 prescription meds is the average for the patient hospitalized with chronic illness. However,very few of those patients would even consider giving up the meat, alcohol, processed junk food, chemical laden and sedentary lifestyles to which they have become accustomed, to regain some of their health. They have long since given their power over to the belief that the things most damaging to them, are things necessary to keep them alive and happy. (If you don’t understand this, I urge you to read the energy healing books by Carolyn Myss.)

    At work, my husband tries and tries until he’s blue in the face, to encourage his patients to improve their lifestyles and seek more natural treatments, before he resorts to the most conservative conventional treatments possible. He used to offer acupuncture but so few patients accepted his offers that he eventually gave it up. With the vast majority of his clients, he’d have better luck speaking prevention to their dogs. Most of the people JUST don’t want to hear it! The public loves the lure of a quick fix, and are happy to allow the pharmaceutical companies to promise them something for nothing. But, this is nothing new. If you read some of the accounts of medical practice from former centuries, humanity hasn’t changed. People have always gravitated towards things that seem easy and magical, and, given the choice, the average citizen will choose a “cure” they don’t understand, over the difficult and mundane everyday work of learning how to cook, saying no to the potential (temporary) pleasure of a shared drink or cigarette, or dragging themselves out to exercise. Many are the times that my husband and I have been at the nearly empty gym, watching person after person walk in the door the liquor store two storefronts down. These are the same people who ‘have no money” for their health care, or disease treatment.

    The situation has become so bad that it isn’t uncommon any more for patients to abuse potentially addictive medications – which they may have gotten legitimately at one point for necessary treatment – then con or threaten physicians into giving them unnecessary prescriptions so they can use the drugs recreationally or sell them on the black market. These patents can be surprisingly difficult to catch. Once identified, however, there is little the doctor can do except fire them from his or her practice – a maneuver fraught with legal difficulties because laws favoring the patients have been developed and set in place by the co-dependent social do-gooders. The amount of damage done by malpractice lawyers shoving doctors into corners from which they have to practice defensive medicine, is huge. Get rid of most of the lawyers, and you’ll get rid of a heck of a lot of “pill pushing”!!!!

    In the end, the fundamental problem is that the public has allowed itself to lower the bar on standards and expectations of personal responsibility so far, that the medical community has few options but TO dispense pills either to repair some of he damage people do to themselves, or to stave off legal claims that “everything possible wasn’t done”. And, as with most things, there ARE very legitimate and life-saving roles for conventional medicine, especially surgery. Unfortunately, the pharma industry, with the full cooperation of the public, has pushed conventional medicine far beyond it’s “sweet spot” and into areas where it has, indeed, become dangerous.

    The solution(s)? There are no easy solutions at this point. A reversal of the situation will occur only when multiple, seemingly unrelated, things happen. First, the public must choose to vote with its time and dollars, and spend its capital on researching, and then acting upon, reputable information about natural health and prevention. Health has to MEAN something to people before they’ll value it, and valuation always comes before voluntary action. To this end, our school system must be fundamentally reformed so that kids learn to reason critically, and are exposed to positive health messages and healthy lifestyle examples such as school gardens from which the students harvest and prepare foods for their cafeterias. It can be done – it HAS been done – but too many parents won’t get active enough in their schools to support such changes. Many are too busy working to buy the kids Nintendos and wide-screen TV’s and homes with granite countertops, to have the energy left over to be thoughtfully involved in their kids’ futures. The parents thus breed the next generation of voluntary pill-poppers, or kids who will get themselves in trouble and need what should be avoidable medical intervention because nobody was paying attention to them.

    A second approach to the issue would be to ban advertising for pharmaceuticals and malpractice suits. When the average Homo Couchpotato sees twenty-three ads per day urging him or her to “ask their doctor about…”, what do you think most of them are going to do? (If they were well-educated critical thinkers, probably nothing, but most are neither educated nor critical. See point above.) Malpractice ads likewise encourage irresponsiblity, by suggesting that the doctor is in charge of your health. No, she isn’t. She’s there to dispense advice based on her training, not to hold the patient’s mental hand, check their medicine cabinet, and force compliance. Patients need to make their own decisions about what to accept and how to act, and then accept the consequences. There is a huge difference between gross negligence by the doctor – which does sometimes occur – and the results of the risks inherent in any activity, including medicine. Teaching the public to understand the concept of risk (see education, above), is necessary if we are ever to develop a more sensible medical system.

    A last element that requires reform is the expectation of stockholders to expect – or really demand – endless growth from the companies, such as pharma companies, that they hold stock in. A public company must please its shareholders. Shareholders demand that medical/pharma companies exhibit something that physics says is impossible – endless growth, because growth is the only route to profit (at least under conventional models). So, what does the pharma industry have to do to achieve growth? Shove more pills, new products and ever greater quantities down our throats. At one level, it’s not their fault, as the law requires them to be in business to give their shareholders a return. So you can’t fault them entirely for their profit motive. Laws and shareholders give them little choice. If you don’t believe me, ask yourself if your would, for example, rather have a stock that gave a 2% return, or a stock that gave you a 12% return on your investment. What would you do if you found out that your stock offered you a below-average return, because they didn’t roll out or sell enough new products to expand their market share? When was the last time you inquired how much of your return was based on the companies in which you invested, cutting corners and doing unethical things, to push their profit margins up? If your answer is “never”, then you are part of the problem.

    In the end, the factors driving our current medical crises are complex and deeply-rooted. Therefore, is not likely that we will have the political will to enact, or even to see, real alternatives. If we want something other than a pharmaceutical solution to our health issues,then we will have to think long-term and enact changes that, in the popular mind, will be perceived as “difficult”, ‘painful” and ‘unfair’ – even politically incorrect. Fat chance of that happening. So the pundits will continue to have a field day excoriating doctors or providing some other simplistic band-aid “solutions” that do little more than disguise the real issues while making Joe Average feel righteously good. The process of scapegoating an easily-defined target is just so emotionally satisfying that it’s hard to let go of. In the meantime, we will collectively continue feeding the real monsters that lie hidden deep within the conceptual social structures that we’ve based our society on. My prayer is that my husband can find another career to get into, or that I can finally find lucrative work, before the system collapses and we’re reduced to a lousy, low-paid, unfulfilling, Soviet-style disease care system in which everybody (except the party leaders) is equal: equally bad off, that is. But I don’t see either party being willing to head off such a fate, in part because the public won’t tolerate the hard truths about what must be done. My advice to you, the reader, therefore, is to do whatever you can to take care of yourselves today, because the health care system that so may of you live to badmouth and kick around, is already going away and may not be around in recognizable form much longer.

    • nickkin

      Very good info MD. All of these liberals have bit the obama pill and the democrats way of easy living off the hard working conservative rights. I can understand what your saying because as health insurance salesman, I too, saw the denial of young people purchasing health insurance because they were at the mind that nothing would happen to them because of their age. Some that bought the Ins. were able to be convinced of high deductibles , low premium but coverage for the bigger catastrophic health events. obama has massaged all these young-ins with freebies, long term unemploy bene’s and all the coupons they can get. A generation of lazy, gimme and I-deserve-it. The libs have bitten the REDISTRIBUTION theory and do not have enough history knowledge to know about commie countries that tried that, but, like the advertisements show, “JUST PUSH THE RED EASY BUTTON.”

    • Frank Kahn

      Gee, do you think you said enough?

      I have a few points that irk me in your long winded lecture. But, first I would like to point out that the types of perks you mentioned are not what drives pill pushing by many doctors. Sometimes it is the lucrative free sample offerings. Give these pills to your patients, then when they think the pills are helping you can prescribe them. The patient then can visualize that if they run short the doctor can give them additional free samples. It is a psychological game they play. Not all doctors will fall for or condone this type of deception, but I have seen this happen within my family (as the patient).

      I will agree that, so many new medicines are scary, their side effects should make everyone steer clear. You watch commercials for some medicines and if you actually pay attention to the POSSIBLE side effects you might be shocked how many have the words MAY IN SOME INSTANCES LEAD TO DEATH in them. Or, the one I really like “if your tongue or throat swell and you have difficulty breathing, seek medical attention” signs of Anaphylaxis. Still having difficulty understanding how medicine that gets rid of depression make someone suicidal. And how many people read the label on nsaid pain killers. Sometimes it is equally important for the consumer to read and understand the warnings associated with chemical drugs.

      I am also aware of a vast number of old wives tales about home remedies. It is amazing some of the simple solutions to problems. For instance, the best cure for the pain of a bee sting is HONEY. Vinegar, and garlic are great health foods. There is a vegetable grown in the Philippines that is a virtual wonder drug, it cures many things including hypertension. We need to reacquaint ourselves with the old wives tales. They were very smart things, a store of knowledge about healthy living. Eat your veggies, constipated, eat more fiber, always tired, try iron rich foods like raisins or liver. Have three or four servings of fruit a day. It would take a large book to list all the smart eating habits necessary to be healthy.

      Holistic medicine, got a bad name way back in the past. I dont agree with chiropractic medicine because I have encountered several quack chiropractors that claim impossible results. One told me that, if I had weekly treatments on my back he could cure my blindness. Sorry, but my optic nerve was damaged so crackin my back wont help. But woe be to the person who pshaws oriental medicine. Acupuncture and Acupressure are very beneficial treatments for a variety of ailments. In fact, they can do much better at treating pain than any pharmaceuticals with no side effects.

      Now that I have agreed with you on the important things, it is time for my two complaints.

      When referring to the doctor you said SHE instead of HE or THEY. I often think it is best not to use gender identity with an occupation. I have this aversion because of growing up during the terrible women’s libber movement. I am not against women, I just think it is stupid to expect political correctness that mandates a change in every word used in business. I.E. mail person instead of mailman. If you try to take out the masculine sound of names even mail person is gender specific, so it should be letter carrier person. Just gets ridiculous. And, I also find it mildly offensive when a woman intentionally uses the female gender when addressing someone or something like God, she is a loving God. Personally I dont think God is either a him or her. But I digress.

      The second problem I have is with your implying that meat is bad for us. This is typical veggie head talk and is without merit. I used veggie head because you used lacto vegan. You want to say it, say it. You are a vegetarian that also consumes milk products, which usually includes eggs (not sure why eggs are considered dairy). Actually there are scientific studies that show that the human brain needs red meat fat for optimal development during the formative years. It would be impossible to get that fat content from vegetables. Being a vegetarian is a personal choice, which is not directly associated with good health. I am a very healthy 60 year old man and I love my meat. In fact, I eat some of the most heavy cholesterol foods in mass quantities and have a very low total cholesterol count. The only thing my doctor says I have a problem with is triglycerides which can be controlled with Omega-3 fatty acids which is abundant in some fish oils (again meat). I am not suggesting that everyone could eat this way and not have some adverse health issues.

      So, really it is not eliminating meats from your diet that is necessary, it is balancing the foods and eating sensibly. Even the size and timing of your meals is important. Eating a big meal in the evening is terrible for you. Thinking that you will lose weight and be healthier by cutting down to one meal a day is a double killer. It will cause your body to go into starvation mode and store everything in fat cells as a self defense mechanism (which also slows your metabolism and makes you fat), and this type of eating habit can lead to diabetes.

      Yes, we all need more education about healthy eating and getting good exercise, just not needing an agenda for vegetarianism or any other extremes.

      • MD spouse

        Hi, Frank

        I’m glad we agree on many important things, although the issue of the free samples is more complex than you understand. In many cases, the physician will give out free samples as a courtesy, after the patient expresses opposition to paying, so that the patient can sample before committing. It’s not an attempt to hook. In other cases, the physician may be unsure which med will work best, and so will try one, then another, and sometimes others, so she or he and the patient can gauge which will work better than the rest. Is it possible that this is what happened in your case and, like many others who come into to but don’t like the system, you’ve assumed or projected motives and attitudes on to your provider? Ultimately, you did the right thing – made a decision for yourself, and did what you feel is best for your own care. I simply hope that when you need the services of a conventional doctor again – and you probably will choose to seek it out when natural remedies aren’t enough – you don’t, like so many, go back with a big chip on your shoulder. When the patients arrive at the doctor’s office, as more and more now do, loaded for bear, mistrusting the system and full of the attitude that “this is [expletive deleted] and they’re out to get me”, how well do you think ANY treatment will work??!? How would you like strangers coming to you for advice, needy yet in the frame of mind that you are the enemy? How effectively do you think you would be able to help them? Please put yourself in that place for a while, before judging the next doctor you see.

        By the way, I wasn’t pushing vegetarianism. I mentioned it, but you read more into my comments than I intended. But since you went into the issue, I’ll be clear: the epidimiologial studies show quite strongly that, compared to the typical Western feedlot-meat-laden diet, traditional veg diets are much more healthy, even for kids. The decreasing age of sexual development is directly linked to the hormones in modern meat and milk, for example. But that wasn’t the point of my letter. The point was that the causes of our modern medical dilemma are multi-faceted, with the consumers, lawyers, policy makers and others both directly and indirectly involved in some surprising ways.

        Indeed, you open the door to giving an excellent example of the how entangled our policies are. The agricultural industry is a huge player in the health industry, with the meat, dairy and egg boards being the largest mass pushers of pharmaceuticals on earth. They deliver Big Pharma to us courtesy of the meat, milk and eggs produced by perpetually drugged animals and even fruits and veggies doses with herbicides, pesticides, and contaminated animal [expletive deleted]. The argument is that it would be impossible to deliver the amount of animal protein “required” by people at an “affordable” price unless the animals are kept on the pharmaceutical treadmill. The use of pharmaceuticals by the agricultural industry dwarfs the use of pharmaceuticals by all physicians combined, and the meat, dairy and egg boards also sponsor the bulk of the “health” and dietary literature given out in doctor’s offices. Of course that literature suggests that animal products are a positive part of a balanced diet, and encourages the patients to stay in the loop that drives the need for more animal drugging, which leads to worse consumer health, and more demand for human pharmaceuticals to alleviate those symptoms, and so on. Talk about propaganda! And who allows this literature to be placed in doctor’s offices? Generally, the corporate executives who run the medical groups and bureaucratic organizations such as the AMA which have economic ties to the pharma and ag industries. By the way, the AMA claims to represent the medical industry, but no physician I have ever known or worked for, has ever belonged to it.

        Anyway, the point again, is that the medical dilemma is linked to many, often hidden, causes. but the average person will only see (or want to see) one target: the doctor, because that is their only point of contact with the vast health industry.Please read the rest of my comment more thoroughly. Start taking a closer look at the legal industry, the advertising industry, the industry shareholders and the people you know who are willing victims, for their roles in driving this ugly juggernaut, before continuing to peg the whole mess on doctors. Thankyou.

        • Frank Kahn

          My account of the use of free samples was totally accurate, I did not say all doctors use this methodology. I suspect that it might be more prevalent with poor patients than the general public. I DO NOT have a raging distrust for doctors, I have a healthy amount of skepticism about many of their pharmaceutical practices. Most doctors, that I have used, tend to simply push drugs as opposed to health.

          I am willing to read any available studies you claim show vegetarians to be healthier than the normal population. I consider your sources to be suspect in the same way you will consider mine to be suspect when they refute your claim. But, I am willing to read all available information in an effort to check the validity of both sides.

          I read your original post completely and you have now changed your attack from meat to gmo meat. I consider steroids and growth enhancing drugs to be a form of genetically altering the animals. The issues you stated in this post are NOT from eating meat and eggs or drinking milk, they are from the chemicals used in the process of raising the animals.

          You talk about having a chip on my shoulder against doctors if I dont trust them, well you have shown yourself to have a very big chip on your shoulder against us. You are beginning to sound like an extremist in the area of supporting your Husband. Nothing in my post suggested that I blame all doctors for the bad “health care” system we have. Nor, did I really blame the doctors, I distinctly remember talking about how scary pharmaceuticals are. For instance, I mentioned NSAID pain medication. NSAID is an anti-inflammatory analgesic that is sold over the counter and pushed at the elderly for things like arthritis. However, there is a warning on the label that says elderly patients should be careful with it as it increases the possibility of things like stroke and hypertension. It also warns patients with kidney problems to consult a physician before using. This is a “safe” over the counter (OTC) medicine so how many check the warnings (in very small print) on the label.

          It is large corporations, who are greedy, that push these unhealthy products on us, that goes for almost every consumable commodity we have, including healthcare, agriculture and meat processing.

  • Roger H.

    When I was in the Naval Reserve in Watertown, NY we used to have RN’s who worked at hospitals in Watertown. Geographically Watertown, NY is on the border to Canada, so on weekend drills, these RN’s would tell us the number of Canadians who would come to their hospitals for medical treatments. These treatments could be one of many treatments available to them at U.S. hospitals, such as, MRI’s, CT scans, etc. The Canadian’s, according to these RN’s would actually pay for the procedure out of their own pocket or by credit card. It wasn’t that they couldn’t have one of these procedures in their homeland, but the wait was for multiple weeks and they just didn’t want to wait that long.

    A short time later, my wife and I had the opportunity to visit Canada. It’s a beautiful country with a great heritage and history. I talked to many there about their health insurance and they essentially said, “For minor things, it’s great! But when your really sick or severely injured you go to the States. Even if you have to pay out of pocket!” I recall one couple told us, “Don’t ever change your medical care program in the States. Keep it like it is…it saved my mother’s life, the woman told me. She had lung cancer.” I asked why Canada wouldn’t provide the care she needed. She said it wasn’t that they would provide the care, but her, “Mom was on a waiting list so long that the family was afraid Mom would pass away before she was seen. And the were not prepared to wait that long! The family got together, and took Mom to Roswell Park in Buffalo, NY.” I asked how her mother did? “That was 4-years ago and she’s still alive today. They saved her life!” This was back before anyone ever heard of the term, ‘Obamacare.’

    I recently read Obamacare will add 10,000,000 new patients to the health care system but with no significant number of new doctors! In fact many doctors are thinking about retiring or moving into other fields. Think there might be lines and list in America?

    • Marty S.

      I spoke to a local physician and he said something like 40% of doctors are going to phase out of medicine and that Ovomitcare will break down the medical system and our economic system at the same time which is obviously what the Pretender in Chief wants in order to usher in the rest of his plan which has been so carefully orchestrated by the PTB/ New Order folks. The election was rigged and we are now stuck with this satanic beast. May God have mercy on us all.

      • Smilee

        Did you dream this BS???? Doctors are paid to much to leave and look for that kind of money elsewhere. Some are not happy with the prospect to probably make less but with 30 million more patients who pay maybe it will not be the loss they are predicting. I predict few if any will leave. Other countries do not pay as much so they are not likely to go there either.

    • R. Fine

      Speaking as a Canadian I can tell you that the universal health care system we have here is wonderful and probably 95% of us would agree with that. One and all are covered and do not fear death or bankrupcy due to illness. We do not have millions and millions of fellow citizens who do not get proper health care. It is shameful what goes on in your country. Also, we do not fritter away 30% of health care dollars to insurance company stock holders. Talk about jokes! You would do well to study how health care is handled in other countries but sadly a strange pride keeps you from looking beyond your own borders. Mind you when Mitt Romney was in Israel before the election he praised the Israeli health system. He noted that it was the best in the world and far less expensive than the American system. Only AFTER that speech did he discover that Israel has socialistic universal health care included state funded dental care for children which Canada can only dream for! Poor old Mitt. He got it right about Israel’s socialistic medical care even though he – supposedly – is AGAINST it. What poor old sod. No wonder he lost.

      • Smilee

        Thanks

        This is exactly what my friends and relatives in Canada also tell me to, also my relatives in Norway and England say the same about theirs.

    • Smilee

      I have many relatives in Canada all whom tell me the exact opposite of what you say and some of these grew up in the US and as adults moved there and some in their thirties when they went up there and have used both Countries health care and ours and they say they prefer the one in Canada. One cousin of mine had planned to move back to the US after retiring but did not as he wanted to remain on the health care system there as he felt it was superior, I have spoken to one person [a friend, not relative from Canada] there who did not like the system and she said that was only after she became a senior citizen as she said our Medicare was superior but my cousin said the opposite so I do not know for the seniors but all have said for everyone else their is better. One cousin in Canada got a cochlear implant that was of no extra cost to him while in the US no government paid for plan covers any of it and very few insurance companies. He can hear again and was deaf on that ear. Which would you prefer as in the US it would cost you $30,000.00 to get one. Canada spends about half on health care as we do. THEY MOST BE DOING SOMETHING RIGHT.

  • http://www.booksbyoliver.com OhioRiver

    True, ObamaCare is not about health of the people, but more control over the people by the government. Great article! Thanks.

    • Smilee

      It is only about what and how insurance companies cover health care costs of those they insure and pay for . nothing more nothing less, it has no control over your health care and it will advise by a advisory board how to better deliver health care and control costs but the board will not have enforcement powers which will be voluntary on the providers unless mandated by congress. The radicals who oppose Obamacare have tried extremely hard to make a mountain out of mole hill on this issue.

  • ranger09

    Big corporations have Never given up their Profits, The people just keep on paying for the increases. No matter what Garbage you hear from these People, We are still going to have to Pay. The rich get richer and the working People get Poorer. These Corporations are already cutting the workers benefits IF any. 20% full time 80% Parttime. What this means is their top People get benefits and the working slobs get none. Why drive around in a ford when they can drive in MBs and Cads. Dam seems like i am also talking about our Politicians.

  • ranger09

    Insurance Companys. Well if you look at the Ins Companys and the Control over Politicians, You will see that Health Insurance Companys will be like your Auto Ins Every one will be required by law to Buy Health Insurance. Simple math. Also Health Care is WAY to HIGH, CUT the DRS and the Medical COSTS. This would sure Help.

  • Matt

    “Health costs nothing.” What??? How can health “cost nothing”?

  • JJM

    You can unquestioningly believe what you are told OR you can review what is happening.
    My small (micro) business high deductible group policy premiums increased 15% from 2010 to 2011. To renew the same plan for 2012, they would have increased another 15%. If we renew our current plan for 2013, premiums will only increase 7.5%. That results in a per person cost in 2010 of $322/month. and in 2013 of $457/month. (a 42% increase in 3 years). At this rate, in 2019 our per person cost would be $917/month.
    Meanwhile (and it’s been several months since I checked the Labor Dept figures so you can check for actual figures) CPI has been under 2% per year while Medical cost increases (reportedly) have been under 5% per year.
    Affordable Health Care, my a$$. Perhaps it is affordable for those who are subsidized with our tax and premium $$. And how do Medical Device taxes contribute to affordability for those who need devices?

    • JJM

      Corrections (forgot agent fees in projections):
      My small (micro) business high deductible group policy premiums increased 15% from 2010 to 2011. To renew the same plan for 2012, they would have increased another 15%. If we renew our current plan for 2013, premiums will only increase 9%. That results in a per person cost in 2010 of $322/month. and in 2013 of $462/month. (a 42% increase in 3 years). At this rate, in 2019 our per person cost would be $950/month (almost tripled).

      • Smilee

        JJM

        Your premium amounts are probably based on the size of you group and its past usage, under the exchanges coming under Obamacare you can probably get insurances through them were the group size will be much larger thus cheaper premiums, this is how it has worked for years and the exchanges allow you to be in a group much bigger than your self now, worth checking out. This one of the reasons it is called the affordable care act.

        • Frank Kahn

          The name of the act does not show the value or results of its use.

          I live in a “Right to Work” state, funny how the Right to Work really means the right of an employer to fire you without giving cause.

          Affordable is a very misleading name because it ignores the true possibilities. You mention the POSSIBILITY that the person will be in a larger group, thereby reducing his/her premium cost. This is not only wrong, it is preposterous. If you are suddenly in a large group that has massively higher health care costs, your premium will go up drastically. If all the “non-insurable” people (pre-existing conditions) are suddenly forced onto your insurance carrier, they will have to increase premiums to stay solvent.

          You are, probably, unaware (ignorant) of the process used by Health Care Insurance providers in their setting of the cost of premiums. They have to do extensive and complicated calculations on the probability of certain expenditures. The predictability of these liabilities is extremely difficult, which is why they make certain conditions either prohibitively expensive or deny coverage altogether.

          The government is incapable of making these decisions and that is why the AFFORDABLE Health care act is a bad idea.

      • Smilee

        Frank Kahn says:
        November 24, 2012 at 4:00 pm

        The name of the act does not show the value or results of its use.
        I live in a “Right to Work” state, funny how the Right to Work really means the right of an employer to fire you without giving cause.
        Affordable is a very misleading name because it ignores the true possibilities. You mention the POSSIBILITY that the person will be in a larger group, thereby reducing his/her premium cost. This is not only wrong, it is preposterous. If you are suddenly in a large group that has massively higher health care costs, your premium will go up drastically. If all the “non-insurable” people (pre-existing conditions) are suddenly forced onto your insurance carrier, they will have to increase premiums to stay solvent.

        YOU AGAIN SHOW YOUR LACK OF KNOWLEDGE, INSURANCE COMPANIES HAVE FOR YEARS BASED THEIR RATE ON THE SIZE OF THE INSURANCE POOL AND THE BIGGER THE POOL THE SMALLER THE PREMIUM IN COMPARISON TO SMALLER POOLS, THAT IS WHAT THE INSURANCE EXCHANGES BEING FORMED BY OBAMACARE WILL DO BECAUSE YOU WILL BE IN A LARGER POOL THAN YOU NOW CAN BE AND THERE WILL BE NO INDIVIDUAL RATE THEN. WHEN YOU ADD 30 MILLION PEOPLE TO THE POOLS THEY GET MUCH LARGER AND THIS WILL PRODUCE LOWER PREMIUMS THAN BEFORE, PRE EXISTING CONDITIONS WILL BE ABSORBED BECAUSE OF THE LARGER POOLS AS THE RISKS ARE SPREAD AMONG MANY MORE PEOPLE AND THOSE WHO DO NOT NEED A LOT OF CARE WILL OFFSET THOSE WHO DO. COUNTRIES ACROSS THE WORLD HAVE PROVEN THIS AND THEIR COSTS ARE HALF OF WHAT WE SPEND BUT MOST OF THEM PUT THEIR WHOLE COUNTRY INTO ONE POOL IT IS CALLED SINGLE PAYER PLANS AND THEY HAVE PROVEN IT CUTS THE COSTS IN HALF BUT WE ARE MORE INTERESTED IN PAYING MORE THAN DOING IT THIS PROVEN WAY , NEVER THE LESS, IT WILL INCLUDE MORE PEOPLE AT A PER PERSON COST BEING REDUCED. ANY INSURANCE ACTUARY KNOWS THAT BUT THAT IS WAY TO DEEP FOR YOU.

        You are, probably, unaware (ignorant) of the process used by Health Care Insurance providers in their setting of the cost of premiums. They have to do extensive and complicated calculations on the probability of certain expenditures. The predictability of these liabilities is extremely difficult, which is why they make certain conditions either prohibitively expensive or deny coverage altogether.

        THEIR UNTRUE RHETORIC SURE WAS SWALLOWED UP HOOK, LINE AND SINKER BY YOU, THEY SAID THAT IN FEAR OF LOSS OF PROFITS AFTER ALL THEIR ONLY LEGAL RESPONSIBILITY IS TO THEIR STOCKHOLDERS

        The government is incapable of making these decisions and that is why the AFFORDABLE Health care act is a bad idea.

        MEDICARE IS OR WAS BEFORE 2004 A SINGLE PAYER SYSTEM NOW IT IS ABOUT 75% THAT AND HAS GIVEN THOSE OVER 65 HEALTH CARE AT HALF THE PRICE OF THE UNDER 65 CROWD AND THE AFFORDABLE HEALTH CARE ACT WILL GO IN THAT DIRECTION BUT WILL NOT WORK AS WELL BECAUSE WE HAD TO BE SURE OF THE INSURANCE COMPANIES PROFITS WHICH MEDICARE HAD NONE OF BEFORE 2004 WHEN THEY TURNED SOME OVER TO THE PRIVATE PROFIT COMPANIES AND GUESS WHAT THE COST WENT UP 14% OVER ORIGINAL MEDICARE WHICH SHOULD TELL YOU SOMETHING. THE AFFORDABLE CARE ACT TOOK THAT 14% AWAY AND NOW PAY THE SAME TO THE PRIVATE MEDICARE INSURANCE COMPANIES IN MEDICARE C AND USED THAT MONEY TO EXTEND THE LIFE OF MEDICARE BEFORE IT NEEDS MORE MONEY 8 YEARS, FROM 2016 UNTIL 2024 AND ADDED ANNUAL EXAMS AND PREVENTIVE CARE PLUS IT WILL TOTALLY CLOSE THE DONUT HOLE IN MEDICARE D BY 2020, ALL THIS WILL NO ADDITIONAL TAXES, iT IS ALSO INTERESTING THAT IT HAD LITTLE EFFECT ON THE MEDICARE C PLANS FOR 2013 IN BOTH CONVERGES AND PREMIUM COSTS WHICH ARE NOT CHANGED WITH A LOWER INCREASE IN PREMIUMS THAN PREVIOUS. THIS PROVES THAT THE GOVERNMENT IS CAPABLE BUT YOU HAVE TO LOOK AT THE FACTS AND THE REALITY OF THE SITUATION AND NOT THE FAR RIGHT PROPAGANDA WHICH TELLS YOU A WHOLE DIFFERENT STORY AND A TOTALLY INCORRECT AND FALSE SCENARIO.

        YOUR POST, FRANKIE, AGAIN SHOWS YOUR LACK OF KNOWLEDGE OF THESE ISSUES AND ALSO YOU LACK OF DESIRE TO SEEK OUT THE TRUTH BUT NO RELUCTANCE TO STATE FICTION AS FACT THAT YOU ARE BECOMING SO FAMOUS FOR.

        • Frank Kahn

          Actually, you are the one with no knowledge of the facts, the size of the pool reducing cost is based on more NON EXPENSIVE members. If 95% of the pool cost 20 million each to treat then the ones that never get sick pay thousands of dollars to defray the cost of the expensive members. Increasing the pool with all the un-insurable people does not lower the cost it increases it. Only some brain dead moron like you and Obama would think otherwise. Obama has no clue what it takes to manage something so complex, he could not even operate an ice cream store and make a profit.

          As for the profit margin of the Insurance companies, you are not going to reduce that unless you and your puppet moron Obama take dictatorial control of the entire world. You will be dead by that time because the REAL people that have REAL intelligence will stop all you moronic sociopaths before it gets that far.

          As far as you go, I am surprised that you survived to graduate kindergarten. If stupid was a crime YOU would be forever in prison.

          MY NAME IS FRANK NOT FRANKIE IF YOU WANT TO CALL NAMES WE WILL CONTINUE THIS DISCUSSION UNDER YOUR TERMS YOU PATHETIC MORONIC IDIOT.

          • Smilee

            Frankie

            Your true character and personality have now fully come to the surface and you reveal yourself as the true Frankie. a name calling rude and crude bully filled with rage and anger and making no real sense what so ever. My Posts are 100% correct as you can find out on Medicare and actuaries agree with me and their conclusions are used to set the risk and premiums for the insurance companies polices. You loose credibility when you make claims that goes against the best and creditable evidence by the source and from the best people whom have determined what I said to be correct and credible. You just pull this $hit out of your a$$ and that is why it has such a rotten smell to it. I also feel sorry for you as your words reveal to all intelligent people what a despicable person the real Frankie is.

          • Frank Kahn

            Wrong moron, nobody with any knowledge has every agreed with your nonsense. Find me just one credible authority that believes your stupidity on this matter and I will die of shame for the human race.

          • http://naver samurai

            You have to forgive smelly Frank as he knows not what he does. Facts are just a foreign language to smelly, for he is not capable of mentally comprehending them. FOR GOD AND COUN TRY! 하나님하고 나라를 위해서!

            You need both love of country and faith in God to be a patriot.

            “A patriot must be a religious man.”

            Thomas Jefferson

        • Frank Kahn

          PS. I HAVE THE FACTS ALREADY, I KNOW THE TRUTH. YOUR LIES ABOUT HOW THE GOVERNMENT MANAGES HEALTHCARE WITH MEDICARE IS PURE BS. THEY REFUSE TO PAY THE COST OF TREATMENT WHICH KEEPS THE COST DOWN BUT DESTROYS THE REST OF THE POPULATIONS COST.

          WHO DO YOU THINK PICKS UP THE TAB FOR THE MONEY THE CRIMINALS IN OUR GOVERNMENT REFUSE TO PAY? ALL US REGULAR PAYING CUSTOMERS HAVE TO TAKE UP THE SLACK AND PAY 20 TIMES AS MUCH TO GET OUR HEALTH CARE.

          FACTS? YOU WANT FACTS? YOU REALLY THINK YOU HAVE THE CAPABILITY TO UNDERSTAND REALITY AND ACCEPT THE TRUTH?

          NEVER HAPPEN WITH YOU, YOU HAVE NO CAPACITY TO LEARN, NO ABILITY TO UNDERSTAND AND ARE INCAPABLE OF DIFFERENTIATING BETWEEN LIBERAL B S AND THE TRUTH.

          AND, I AM ONLY SCREAMING (ALL CAPS) BECAUSE YOUR INFANTILE MENTALITY MAKES YOU SCREAM AND THROW A HISSY FIT WHEN PEOPLE MENTION THE TRUTH AGAINST YOU PATHETIC MORONIC SELF AGGRANDIZING CRAP.

      • Smilee

        Frank Kahn says:
        November 24, 2012 at 10:12 pm

        I am responding to this post and my post inserted right before this one, I stand fully behind as it is fully accurate, this post of your is just totally false and only reveals your inaccurate opinions and saying it by screaming (your words) does nothing to change that fact. YOU SIMPLY DO NOT UNDERSTAND HOW IT WORKS OR WHAT IT DOES AND LIKE A LITTLE BOY WHEN YOU CANNOT HAVE YOUR WAY YOU THROW THIS CHILDISH TANTRUM. education on the subject might clear it up for you once you grow up and get past the childish tantrum stage.

        • Frank Kahn

          I can, and do, prove you wrong on everything you say Smirky, you are to immature to understand truth and reality. You want an education in the subject, I will provide it but it will cost you because my services are not free to ignorant people like you.

          • Smilee

            Frankie,

            Just more pure malarkey and pure BS from you as you have not even come close to proving me wrong on anything. Saying it does not prove it, that takes real facts and you have not convinced me as yet you know what that is

          • Frank Kahn

            I gave documented evidence that you were wrong about the medicare part B premium increases. I was correct in my assertion that they are large increases as opposed to your lying less than $1 a year.

          • Smilee

            I never said it was less than a dollar you said that not me again proving you lie. You also proved nothing. You also said your mothers increases in Medicare B premiums was greater than her SS raises giving her a net decrease in spendable dollars and I proved you where way wrong on by over 200 dollars (net increase) off again proving you do not know that of which you speak, Why did you not respond to that, you cherry pick what you respond to and they those are often not accurate responses. You think you have intelligence when you do not making you just look foolish frankie. It is not me who puts you down it is your self inflicted idiotic thinking that makes you such a fool.

          • Frank Kahn

            Actually, I respond to them in reverse order of receiving them in my email because I dont monitor it 24/7 there are several to handle. I did answer your wrong assertion about a $231 net increase in one of my responses. I dont cherry pick, you just have to read my posts in reverse order to see the full train in proper order.

          • Smilee

            FRANK, i NEVER SAID IT WAS LESS THAN A DOLLAR GO BACK AND REREAD

          • Frank Kahn

            okay, you said around $1 a year not less, quit harping on it, that is not the main issue here.

  • http://PERSONELLIBERTYDIGEST CINDY

    GOOD ARTICLE: Yes big phrama and big insurance companies ARE THE ONES TO GAIN ON OBAMA CARE! AND YES the RIF-CHIP IS ALSO THERE! But it will ALSO BE AN ATTACK ON HOLISTIC MEDICINE!! Watch, Obama care will NOT COVER NATURAL ALTERNATIVE MEDICINE— YOU will have to PAY FOR THAT SEPARATELY!! (If you have any MONEY LEFT to do that!!) So now for REAL medical treatment, you must have MORE MONEY !, or your just OUT OF LUCK! YOU will be CONDEMNED TO treatments that DON’T HEAL YOU but actually HASTEN your demise!! IS that REAL MEDICAL COVERAGE????? And if your on disability for example, you will LOSE your BENEFITS, because you are not FOLLOWING TREATMENT PROTOCOL if you use ONLY REAL HOLISTIC METHODS and NOT PHARMACEUTICALS!!
    MAKE NO-MISTAKE– there would be either Romney Care or Obama Care BOTH WOULD BE THE SAME!!! our HEALTH SYSTEM has been HIGHJACKED!!

    • Smilee

      OBAMACARE HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH HEALTH CARE TREATMENTS ONLY HOW AND WHAT INSURANCE COMPANIES HAVE TO PAY FOR. I AGREE THAT IT WOULD BE NICE TO COVER MORE ALTERNATIVE METHODS AS WELL BUT THAT WAS NOT ADDRESSED IN THIS LAW AND WITH THE FIERCE OPPOSITION IN THE MAIN STEAM HEALTH CARE SYSTEM IT PROBABLY WILL NOT HAPPEN SOON. WE NEED TO SUPPORT LOBBY AND ELECTION REFORMS FIRST SO THE INTEREST OF THE PEOPLE BECOMES MORE POWERFUL AS THAT SQUASHES WHAT WE THE PEOPLE WANT AND NEED IN TODAY’S WORLD.

      • http://PERSONELLIBERTYDIGEST CINDY

        By the way Smilee
        There WILL BE A TREATMENT PANEL IN WASH. D.C.– Who will decide what TREATMENT YOU WILL RECEIVE!! DIDN’T YOU GET THE MEMO??

        • Smilee

          Cindy, No, As it does not exist, it is only a rumor

  • http://PERSONELLIBERTYDIGEST CINDY

    The other VERY DISTURBING ASPECT of Obamacare — Is that the SUPREME COURT
    UPHELD the HIGHJACKING OF OUR MEDICAL SYSTEM!! What does that really say about America?? My chiropractor (who is an amazing HEALER and SAVED MY life) STILL HASN’T BEEN INFORMED as to how she will be effected by Obamacare!! Were only 5-weeks away from implementing this SYSTEM!! WTF!!!

    • Smilee

      Cindy

      We are 67 weeks away form its implementation (Jan 1, 2014) Your chiropractic coverage’s will not change unless your insurance changes it, nothing in the law does that and if your on Medicare it will continue to pay for unlimited treatment in the Original Medicare (B) and differ on the Medicare C which are the private sector plans which can change it each year now but probably not likely to change much and few are unlimited now and most of these have copay’s as well.

      • http://PERSONELLIBERTYDIGEST CINDY

        Well thank-you for your reply Smilee, you sound like your a Obamacare advisor. You have to admit that the Obamacare act hasn’t been FORTH COMING TO THE PUBLIC.
        Even most of the senator’s NEVER GOT TO READ THE BILL THOROUGHLY! So please tell me– is the CHIP GOING TO BE MANDATORY FOR ALL U.S. CITIZEN’S??

        • Smilee

          NO

      • http://PERSONELLIBERTYDIGEST CINDY

        Will the chip be for people who are poor , on treatment programs, or social programs like disability?

        • Smilee

          CINDY, THERE ARE NO CHIPS PERIOD, WHEREVER DID YOU COME UP WITH THAT NONSENSE????

      • http://PERSONELLIBERTYDIGEST CINDY

        Hi Smilee I’m back
        I read about the chip under– MEDICAL DEVICES— That a chip would be used for certain conditions — the chip had ALL YOUR MEDICAL RECORDS ON THEM! So that when you went to the hospital (or so they say) they had your COMPLETE MEDICAL HISTORY!
        IF: This ISN’T TRUE– (and of course–where it LEADS TO!- chipping everyone!)
        Then Obama NEEDS to come forward and EXPLAIN exactly what Obamacare really is ABOUT! AND NO LYING OR SECRETS, like we are seeing! Why weren’t the Senator’s allowed to read the bill COMPLETELY before passage??

        • Smilee

          There was talk about that but mostly on talk radio and there never was a serious attempt to include it in the law and it is not in it, How would you expect him to explain beyond what he has said, Its hard to talk over all the talk radio calling you a liar when you do which is not true. The overview has been told by him the details if you want them is on the gov sites.

      • http://PERSONELLIBERTYDIGEST CINDY

        Thank-you for your reply Smilee
        It really helps to DISPEL the rumors, when we can get FEEDBACK from someone who knows. YOU are the first person, that I have run across on the internet who as offered any answer’s. It would really help his cause if there was more feedback to dispel rumor’s,
        Thanks again, now I can breathe easier.

        • Smilee

          Thanks and I agree, and no inaccurate information and slanted projections would be even more helpful. Being retired gives me the time to research these things which those working and especially those raising children do not have the time or opportunity to do so and they are the ones most effected by this and so badly need correct information. This law will not solve all the problems with costs etc but it is a start, more definitely has to be done to make it affordable for all.

      • http://PERSONELLIBERTYDIGEST CINDY

        My last reply to Smilee
        Just understand that the chipping of our society is ONE of the MOST important issues of the 21 century. Millions are aware that IF it ever happened it would be SLOW, COVERT, and UNDER THE GUISE OF HELPING US, when in reality it would DESTROY HUMANITY .We as humans on this earth can NEVER LET THAT HAPPEN! That’s why the Red Flag was raised in Obama care with that provision, Glad to see it was taken out.
        Take Care
        Keep up the good work!

  • http://rense.com Mike Hunt

    I’m self employed. I choose not to enroll myself in Obamacare.

    • Smilee

      YOU DO NOT ENROLL IN OBAMACARE, IT IS A LAW THAT REQUIRES YOU TO BUY INSURANCE FROM A PRIVATE SECTOR INSURANCE CARRIER OR PAY A TAX IF YOU DON’T BUT THERE IS NO ENROLLMENT IN A LAW, NEVER HAS BEEN NEVER WILL.

    • http://adamstarkcr.com Adam

      I am too Mike. I am switching to cash only. If you pay with a check or card I am charging an extra 20% to cover for Obamacare. We are all going to have to pay more for everything we buy so I have no choice but to charge more. I already pay 40% of everything I make to local state federal sales tax property tax workmans comp SS MC/MC Fed and state gas tax cell phone tax unemployment tax etc…. There may not be an enrollment but anyone that is self employed gets screwed, again. Our accountant says that fine is going to double then triple etc…. I remember hearing the same BS that costs would go down when all drivers were required to buy car insurance. Costs are going to go up while medical care will go down. Keep in mind that non elected people will decide what will be covered and what won’t. If you have a good policy keep it and don’t change one thing in it or you will be screwed like everyone else in the exchanges. Long lines and trying to find a doctor that will take your crap insurance.

      • Smilee

        Your accountant is using a crystal ball, he can in no way know what future congresses will do and those changes he says will happen require an act of congress. a 20% increase is much more about you taking more profits than cost of Obamacare as it is ways out of line with the reality.

  • http://adamstarkcr.com Adam

    I am self employed. My insurance is 2,000 dollars more than it was now that Obamacare is here. I though Obama said my costs would go down. I thought he said it wouldn’t cost more than one trillion dollars. It’s now over 2 trillion.tax payer dollars, well actually we are borrowing that from China. I will never give up my private insurance and I will never hire more than 49 employees. I do business all over the world with my remote computer repair. If I have to we will move our company off shore and run our servers from there. There is nothing affordable about the Affordable Healthcare Act. Millions have already lost their coverage because OBama care. My costs have gone up. That is a fact!

    • Smilee

      Obamacare does not take effect until 2014 so that has had no effect on your insurance premiums and is not the reason for your increases,also this year the insurance companies overhead was limited to 15% for group plans and 20% for individual and they had to refund the overcharge and did so that was less than last year and will be in effect every year going forward. There is no public insurance plans that amendment was defeated so it is not in the bill. !00% of the insurance plans available are from the private sector, the bill only effects how insurances are sold and having to include more coverage for example preexisting conditions. There will be subsidies for some but this will reduce the subsidies already paid at the emergency rooms ect. and private insurance adding to their premiums to pay for costs passed on due to charity care which will go down and with the overhead formula it should bring down premiums at least lower increase rates considerably from pre Obamacare. CBO say it will save a trillion over ten years the 2 trillion increase is GOP rhetoric and does not add up, it is just not true. To come up with that figure they had to make a lot of assumptions that many things would go south like doctors quitting in droves which will not happen.. Your panicking with no real reason to do so

  • Malcolm Jackson

    So much verbal diarrhea…
    Americans are now like goldfish swimming around a goldfish bowl constantly arguing about which way is out. It’s all about proving you’re right rather than solving your problems. Take a step back and a deep breath. Somewhere in between your extreme differences is a solution and both sides will have to suck it up and come together before the great U.S.A. disintegrates. As an outsider looking at the current “State of the Nation” I truly fear for you.

    Although I’m not a big Obama fan I fail to see how he can possibly be to blame for your current predicament as the U.S. was already in a fast downward spiral before he was elected. The damage was already done. That financial crisis which caused so much grief around the world and those who caused the problem reaping tremendous rewards now from the destruction they caused are rubbing there hands with glee as you fight with each other. They are so happy to keep you distracted from their agenda.

    And shame on the far right extremist religious bigots. Denegrating the American flag by insulting the American President, calling him Obama Bin Laden. From where I sit some of you people are no better than the Taliban. Think of all those Americans who died fighting those extremists and you have the same attitudes in your own back yard. My God is Bigger than your God and if you don’t have a God we’ll get rid of you because your opinion is worthless.

    Stop preaching to the world about democracy and human rights till you clean up your own back yard. Your great constitution is constantly being sold to the highest bidder.

    Go ahead and tell me to mind my own business while you drag me and the rest of humanity down with you.
    Cheers
    Jackson

    • Smilee

      Actually I loved your input, where are you from?

    • Bert Cundle Sr.

      Denegrating the American flag by insulting the American President,???????????
      ___________________________________________________________________

      There is “NO” The AMERICAN Flag!!! ( Unless there isn’t any more U.S.”of” A.)
      The President Speaking for AMERICA: Is over stepping his boundries too. ( His pay check is from the U.S. Treasure.)

      • Malcolm

        Of course, you are “right”. I do concede the point.
        I also rest my case, as being “right” is all encompassing for most “United States of Americans” :-)

  • Malcolm

    Canada Smilee, but I was born a Brit.

  • Bert Cundle Sr.

    I hope that Bob is more Creditable than Mr. Wood or Mr. Root!
    The Higher Cost for Health Care is Based on Hospital & Employes increese ! When you ADD al the ones that will have to pay a fine for not being able to afford the inposed responsibility of the indigent & middle classed Citizen… The immigrants on the dole, make out… for just their vote!

  • http://dentaltavares.com/2013/01/ higiene bucal

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