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New Jersey Senate Passes Gay Marriage Bill

February 16, 2012 by  

New Jersey Senate Passes Gay Marriage Bill

In a move that supporters called a milestone for civil rights, the State Senate in New Jersey passed a bill to recognize same-sex marriages, a move that Governor Chris Christie has promised to veto, The Associated Press reported.

According to the news outlet, the vote was 24 to 16 in favor of the bill, a major swing from the 20 to 14 defeat of similar legislation that occurred in January 2010.

Despite the passage of the bill by the State Senate, opponents noted that it was an exercise in futility due to Christie’s veto vow. Len Deo, president of New Jersey Family Policy Council, called the vote “something we have to go through” and noted it would be made a moot point after it reaches the governor’s desk.

According to Bloomberg, Christie opposes same-sex marriage and wants voters to decide the issue in a referendum. New Jersey is one of six States that is currently mulling over the issue, as Washington, Maryland, Illinois, North Carolina and Minnesota have all seen legislation related to gay marriage come through their State governments.

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  • Karolyn

    Why can’t people just give it a rest and live and let live!

    • Stuart Shepherd

      Here’s the historical reason not to let “live and let live” in this case- it has a morally degenerative effect on society and on our children. That is a legitimate interest of the state. It endorses the left’s viewpoint and propaganda that heterosexuality and homosexuality are equally legitimate choices for lifestyles.
      Here’s the constitutional reason- there is NO “right to privacy” in the constitution for similar reasons to the above. This “right” (like all the other ones the left has made up) was invented to promote their agenda (abortion, at the time). In colonial times, sodomy was a crime. If suspected, your home could legally be invaded and you could be imprisoned.
      Here’s the best reason of all. With “marriage” status, homosexual couples can legally adopt children. This is child abuse, in my opinion, and you’ll never find a better reason!
      I support civil unions with financial “rights” but no rights to adoption.

      • Smilee

        Stuart Shepherd says:
        February 16, 2012 at 8:48 pm

        This is not a right to privacy issue, all the courts that have ruled on this issue found gay marriage constituional based on the equal protection clause of the fourteenth amendment so you do not understand the constituional contervery and your comments distort reality and your opinions have all been rejected by the courts as well. The reason was total lack of evidence to support your feelings and that is all they are, feelings, that are discriminating and hateful

      • http://naver samurai

        Here we go with the lies about the 14th Amendment again. The 14th Amendment, Equal Protection Clause, was dealing with former slaves and their children, not the gays. Gays were considered an abomination back then and still are. So someone doesn’t think they should get marries due to their faith, personal beliefs, etc., that is not discriminatory or hateful. Neeeeed to be making that popping sound. You say the courts always rule that way? Then why did the California Supreme Court rule Prop 8 as Constitutional under California law? Why did Indiana legislate and pass law that gay marriage is illegal? It is becuse they are exercising their rights under the 10th Amendment, a God given right. The 10th Amendment trumps the 14th Amendment. I suggest that you just stick with science, ooops! I forgot that science has no bearing on this subject, so you always want to post lies about the 14th Amendment. FOR GOD AND COUNTRY!

        P.S. Just go away and let the people with knowledge on the subject speak. Now be a good little boy and go play in the street.

      • Robert Smith

        samurai says: “So someone doesn’t think they should get marries due to their faith, personal beliefs, etc., that is not discriminatory or hateful….”

        It sure IS when you have your belief AND you stand in their way for equality.

        You can THINK anything you want to about gay sex, gays, lesbians, etc. That is YOUR concern. Wen YOU ACT to prevent them from having equality then your freedom to swing your arms is punching them in the nose.

        Just as interracial marriage wasn’t allowed in some states until recently, just because some bigots thought it was improper, same sex merrage will become universal in Amerca.

        BTW, you still haven’t told us how YOUR life will change, actually has changed, because same sex couples are allowed to marry.

        Do you have so little control over your children that they won’t grow up hating others?

        Rob

      • http://naver samurai

        SSDD, eh Rob? FOR GOD AND COUNTRY!

    • http://www.facebook.com/george.manheim George Manheim

      Why does everyone call same sex marriage gay marriage.A straight same sex couple must also be allowed to marry without being labeled gay.

      • http://naver samurai

        ally, it is a civil union and not a marriage. A marriage is 1 man and 1 woman brought together before God in holy matrimony. They are not. Call it a civil union, but it can never BE A MARRIAGE! I think you all just need to go back in the closet where you belong. Things like these are what is keeping this country divided. If you and your ilk continue to destroy the moral fabric of this nation, we’ll have no nation left. Just look at Rome, Greece, the Byzantine Empire, and others and see what happened when they went against their morals. The Byzantine Empire fell due to them straying away from God. FOR GOD AND COUNTRY!

      • eddie47d

        Respect and Dignity for all no exception! Besides those Empires fell because of military expansions which destroyed their economies. deja vu!

      • http://naver samurai

        Plus they also went against what they were founded on. Rome was founded on moral beliefs and a Senate, Greece fell apart due to the same things (morals and power hungry politicians.), the Byzantine Empire fell due to leaving their morals and turning their eyes away from God. Remember the 7 Churches of Asia? They became lazy, indifferent, power hungry, greedy, etc. A lot more reasons than just military conquests. FOR GOD AND COUNTRY!

      • Robert Smith

        Wrong again samurai: “A marriage is 1 man and 1 woman brought together before God in holy matrimony.”

        Actually atheists can marry in America.

        And some Mormons believe that before their god poligamy is OK.

        So, when you are talking about “god” make sure you let folks know it’s YOUR brutal bigoted god, not one of the loving gods or goddesses. Not everyone believes as you do samurai.

        Rob

      • Robert Smith

        samurai points out that in HIS opinion the fall of Rome and other empires was: “They became lazy, indifferent, power hungry, greedy, etc. ”

        And when the christians took over the world plunched into the dark ages and witch trials.

        Did you know that some call the persicution of the witches the first holicost?

        Rob

  • Karolyn

    Ijust heard that the New Hampshire legislature wants to rescind their legislation allowing gay marriage. This in a state that is known for its independence. Of course, it is doubtful that it will happen, since rescinding a law is a rare occurrence and hard to accomplish.

    • http://naver samurai

      W’ll see Karolyn. It’s illegal in Indiana. FOR GOD AND COUNTRY!

      • eddie47d

        That won’t get you any bragging rights. Will that be your new State motto . WE Discriminate!

  • Angel Wannabe

    Those that voted in favor of the bill are just about as perverted as those that participate. Great message for our youth as if they aren’t screwed up enough!

    For Civil rights my rear end!

    __A Perpetual Liberal lie, that the Gays don’t have the same rights, it’s nothing more than a way to game the system to their agenda, and to destroy the traditional family and go against the Church. I Guess next the Gays will be squawkin’ for reproductive rights. Happy Days Adam and Steve!__eyes rollin…

    • Karolyn

      Angel – I have yet to hear somebody answer the question “How does gay marriage destroy traditional families?” What they do or do not do has nothing to do with what you do with your family.

      • Angel Wannabe

        Karolyn, The biggie is it’s against Bibilical principle!
        BI Sexual & Gay love does impact traditional marriage. Hell these nutz think today, if ya can’t make it with the opposite sex, then why not try your hand at same sex. Its a cop out, I’ve seen it over and over again and they swap back and forth across from male to female!
        Ya wonder why there is so much STD’s.
        I call it “TRY SEXUAL” which means they’ll try anything sexual!
        Lets face it doll, in Gay relationship, your NOT having kids! your (1) adopting or (2) hiring surrogate mothers, to give up the baby, or hiring sperm donars. Nine chances out of 10 what your raised in, you become.
        We’ve got enough screwed up people without supporting and acting as if__Gay is OK!__We have Beastiality ban now lifted in the Military__What next, Marrying your dog, Cat, Car?__Where the hell is it gonna end?
        The immorality in this Country is killing us!

        • Angel Wannabe

          K_ I’d like to add, if everyone was Gay, we’d be gone in generation! Just like the Quakers! Celebacy or Gaydom doesn’t do society any justice!

          • Karolyn

            But, obviously, that will never happen. Every person serves a purpose, Angel! Because somebody is gay and doesn’t procreate, or somebody is straight and doesn’t procreate means they don’t serve a purpose?????

          • Robert Smith

            “Just like the Quakers! ”

            Wrong again Angel. It was them there christian SHAKERS who didn’t breed.

            Wow! What an advancement in your thinking… If everyone turns gay???? That means you too. Congratulations on your choice.

            BTW, I won’t turn gay. I can’t be gay any more than a gay person can choose to be straight.

            Rob

        • Karolyn

          I know gay people who have 3 kids who are not gay and are great kids. That is a crazy argument. Just because the Bible supposedly says something does not mean everybody has to adhere to it. The Bible is for the people who believe in it, although there are Christian gays. I have found Biblical translations for related passages that refute the normal accepted translations. You cannot compare homosexuality to bestiality/marrying an animal. That is jus plain stupid! The reason the bestiality ban was lifted was because of the way the rules regarding homosexuality were written – the fact that those terms included the use of the work “bestiality.” It is a technicality. Why do you care what anybody tries sexually? It’s their business.

          • Angel Wannabe

            Karolyn, May I ask what you consider perverse, or don’t you care?

          • Jay

            Dr. Joseph Nicolosi, president of the National Association for Research and Therapy of Homosexuality has written: “Homosexuality is a developmental problem that is almost always the result of problems in family relationships, particularly between father and son. As a result of failure with father, the boy does not fully internalize male gender identity, and develops homosexuality. This is the most commonly seen clinical model.”

            Dr. George Rekers, writing in Growing Up Straight, observes: “Many studies of homosexual patients as well as of non-patient homosexuals have established a classic pattern of background family relations. The most frequent family pattern reported from the male homosexuals includes a binding, intimate mother in combination with a hostile, detached father.”

            In studies conducted by Diana Shrier and Robert Johnson in 1985 and 1988, males who had been sexually abused as children were almost seven times as likely as non-molested boys to become homosexuals.

            Dr. Gregory Dickson recently completed a doctoral dissertation on the pattern of relationships between mothers and their male homosexual sons. His paper is entitled: “An Empirical Study of the Mother/Son Dyad in Relation to the Development of Adult Male Homosexuality: An Object Relations Perspective.”

            Dr. Dickson’s study is reviewed on the NARTH web site. His study sheds new light on the relationship between early childhood sexual abuse and a child’s later involvement in homosexual behaviors. According to Dickson, an alarming 49% of homosexuals surveyed had been molested compared to less than 2% of heterosexuals.

            http://blowthetrumpet.org/WhatCausesHomosexuality.htm

          • Deerinwater

            Not attempting to speak for Karolyn, but what consenting adults do inside the confine of their own home is none of my business Angel. I accept the fact that I have “no control” there. Any “judgement” I might have is “my burden” to carry, much like yourself. It’s heavy isn’t it? So why ask someone to carry it? To feel like the little Dutch boy with his finger stuck in the dyke trying to hold back the sea is not a position to stay in very long. The gay community is not going away, as twisted as it may seem to you or I, they are creations of God and put here for some purpose that is hard to accept or understand. God test us all Angel, in many different ways. The Gay Community understand this perhaps better then you and I.

          • Angel Wannabe

            Jay, Disagree!_WHy?__Every perverse action, deviant or out of control behavoir today, is classified as a disease or a mental Illness. Here again its a cop out, and excuse to continue on the same path, while hiding behind the excuse! Nobody wants to be accountable for they’re actions these days, its easier to lie about it.

          • Karolyn

            Angel – As long as is doesn’t harm another individual, I really don’t care. Why should I? As long as I live a good and moral life, helping my fellows along the way, I have not lived in vain.

          • Angel Wannabe

            water, I could care less what people do in they’re own homes, it what they do outside and promote that bothers me_what I worry about is our kids & Grandkids!_-Isn’t the world a tough enough place for us, let alone a little child who has no clue about anything other than they’re world with Mom and Dad. We can only protect them so much until they are exposed.

            Whats wrong with the promotion of good character, a belief in God, hard work and traditions?

            Why does the perverse seem to take precedent and has become the norm?

          • Robert Smith

            Hey Jay, is that the same Dr. that the Miami New Times reported about on May 4, 2010? As I remember itRekers was photographed at Miami International Airport with a twenty-year-old “rent boy.” It’s amazing how Rekers acknowledged hiring Roman for the 10-day European vacation as a “travel assistant.”

            Another gay evangllical out of the closet is what it appears to be.

            Do you really want to rely on that nut’s proclimations to make an argument?

            Rob

          • Angel Wannabe

            Karolyn , no offense doll, but if you don’t care, then your a part of the problem. We ALL have to have control mecanisums to keep us on the stright and narrow, but less and less people do, which is why the perversions are so widely accepted__

          • Robert Smith

            Hey Jay, here is some more for you to think about. It’s from 2006 from the American Psychological Association. Here is their statement about that that ex-gay or “conversion therapy.” It is potentially damaging and might create an intolerant and discriminatory political and social climate. According to the statement:

            “For over three decades the consensus of the mental health community has been that homosexuality is not an illness and therefore not in need of a cure. The APA’ concern about the position’ espoused by NARTH (The National Association for Research and Therapy of Homosexuality) and so-called conversion therapy is that they are not supported by the science. There is simply no sufficiently scientifically sound evidence that sexual orientation can be changed. Our further concern is that the positions espoused by NARTH and Focus on the Family create an environment in which prejudice and discrimination can flourish.”

            So, your guys are dealing in junk science at best.

            BTW, it’s from: http://www.truthwinsout.org/narth/

            Rob

          • Karolyn

            Angel – There is nothing wrong with educating kids in a well-rounded way. The better the education (on all levels) the more well balanced our world. With kids only hearing that homosexuality is a sin, blah-blah-blah, they will grown up with bad feelings toward gays, creating yet more hatred. Just learning about it will turn no one gay! I don’t know where you people come up with this crap! Why do you want to perpetuate the hatred and bigotry in the world? Learning about real life does not preclude learning about morality. Have you no empathy for the homosexual teenagers who, because of society, end up taking their own lives? You and those like you have a hand in that, Angel!

          • Robert Smith

            From Deer: “To feel like the little Dutch boy with his finger stuck in the dyke…”

            I can’t resist.

            And then she slapped him.

            Rob

          • Karolyn

            Angel – Personally, I don’t think anything has changed. It just appears that way because there are more people and we hear about everything. People are still people and are doing the same things they have been doing for millenia. It’s just the proportions that have changed.

        • Robert Smith

          From Angel: “Nine chances out of 10 what your raised in, you become.”

          Well… How are you gonna explain that to Dick Chaney? Or is his lesbian daughter the one out of ten?

          BTW, kids raised in gay households do NOT come out gay any more or less than other kids.

          Rob

          • Angel Wannabe

            Has no bearing robbie, she was born to a Mother and a Father, she turned Gay, her choice, everything has a beginning and end…

            But what we are exposed to as child usually sticks…just sayin

          • Robert Smith

            Riiiiiiiiight… Dick Chaney’s daughter CHOSE to be gay.

            Good one Angel.

            Rob

          • Angel Wannabe

            robbie, Life is a choice itself, you either live or die, drugs or no drugs, celebant/sexual, gay or not, married or not, where should I stop?__We born what we are, its our job to make the most of what we’ve been given, and I don’t mean change our genders, because were p*ssed off because of who and what God Made us…

          • Karolyn

            I was raised in a prejudiced, religious middle class household and turned out the total opposite.

      • Deerinwater

        I wish they might at least call it something besides “marriage”, marriage is sanctioned by the church under God and recognized by government as a binding “civil union” for legal and practical purposes for “apportion” and the raising of a family.

        It could be see by calling this union a “marriage” flies up married people nose that are less sympathetic to the “needs” of the gay community. There will always be people like “Angel” and there will always be a Gay Community.

        What the gay community is asking for is “equality” in the eyes of government afforded to them by the Constitution. This is no place or time to weasel away from the less pleasant down-side to Constitutional law as it relates to individual rights and equality.

        • Angel Wannabe

          Deer, the Gays will always have the sames rights as everyone else, they always have.
          If anyone in a long term relationship doesn’t see to it that their purposed spouse is put on as beneficiary for insurances, wills,titles & deeds and the like, thats no one fault but theres, its they’re responcibility.
          You’ve bought into the perpetual lie for Gay Rights, it a way for them to game people to sympathize with the agenda!__

          I will repeat this again, we had and Uncle in the Family who was Gay, who passed away and left everything to his live, BUT all was in order before his death!_-Nothing for anyone is going to happen automatcially with out spelling it out first!

          • Deerinwater

            No they don’t Angel, if they did, we’d not be having this conversation.

            And Jay, ~ I read some of you post and this Doctor opinions. This sexual abuse might account for some cases but not all or I doubt most.

            I was viewing an interview with one of the Jackson girls yesterday. I forget with one. An attractive young woman, late 20′s , early 30′s.

            She said that she knew that she was a girl by the age of 4, while she was born a boy child.

            For those of us that’s never be confronted with such issues, questions and concerns this is a most vexing problem, without any background or personal experience with such matters it’s very, very hard for us to relate. In someway, I think it’s might be God’s test. Can you separate yourself from the flesh? Can we accept that we are greater then the sum of all of our parts? Are we men with the capacity for a spiritual experience or are we “spirit” enjoying a human experience?

            I contend that we are a “Spirit” first and foremost hosting a “human form”, it’s the only thing that explains what I see and hear.

          • Karolyn

            It’s about more than rights. Gays and lesbians want to be MARRIED! It is a personal feeling, want or need. I believe it is more emotional than anything else.

          • Karolyn

            Deer Bob: “I contend that we are a “Spirit” first and foremost hosting a “human form”,

            ABSO EFFIN LUTELY!!

          • Angel Wannabe

            Yes they do deer, you’ve bought the pertual lie, its a matter of going to a lawyer and setting it all in place.__ and BTW 6 years ago the old man and I Djed a Lesbian Wedding as favor to a neigbor, first and last time I’ll ever do one, because its against my principle_so please don’t tell me they aren’t allowed, its a lie!

          • Jay

            And Jay, ~ I read some of you post and this Doctor opinions. This sexual abuse might account for some cases but not all or I doubt most.

            Deerinwater, are you by any chance, a certified, clinical psychologist/psychiatrist? I will venture to say that you are neither. Therefore, your opinion, is just that, an opinion!

        • Jay

          Dr. Reuben Fine, Director of the New York Center for Psychoanalytic Training: “It is paradoxical that even though the politically active homosexual group[s] denies the possibility of change, all studies from Schrenk-Notzing on have found positive effects, virtually regardless of the kind of treatment used….If the homosexual patients were motivated, whatever procedure [i.e., treatment] is adopted, a large percentage will give up their homosexuality.”

          Those who oppose using therapy to change homosexuals into heterosexuals are, in effect, trying to keep homosexuals locked into homosexuality. Those who oppose such therapy do not want homosexuals to have a choice, a way out of homosexuality. That’s UN-American, inhumane, intolerant, and meanly oppressive.

          In addition, considering all the solid scientific evidence that many homosexuals are mentally disturbed to one degree or another because of sexual abuse (or dysfunctional parents or other negative developmental influences many homosexuals experienced), it is clear that those psychiatrists and psychologists who say homosexuality should NOT be on the officially approved list of mental illnesses are seemingly incompetent mal-practitioners. They appear to be more interested in being “politically correct” than in the truth. Incompetent mal-practitioners should have their licenses to ply their professions revoked.

          (A book written by Dr. Ronald Bayer, a pro-homosexual psychiatrist, titled Homosexuality and American Psychiatry: The Politics of Diagnosis, explains how the decision to remove homosexuality from the officially approved list of mental disorders was based on power politics and intimidation by homosexual groups NOT science.)

          One last note: Homosexuals do not want you to know that many of them were sexually abused when young, because many people who were so abused go on to molest others. And homosexuals do not want you to know that they are more likely to molest children than heterosexuals are.(Note of clarification: While that is a fact, there is no proof at this time that it is because of their homosexuality, but rather because so many of them were sexually abused themselves.)

          • Angel Wannabe

            JaY, Granted, Sexual abuse is the worse kind of abuse to overcome, but it can be done!_As far as abuse goes, I was beat the hell out of by a baby sitter family member on a regular basis from the time I was six until I was almost ten when she was caught!__Abuse does one of two things you either become extremely agressive personality or extremely timid, lets just say, it did NOT make me timid.

          • Jay

            Angel, you jumped to the wrong conclusion in regards to my posts. I’m not trying to provide an excuse as a way to legitimate the lifestyle. Rather, i’m suggesting an approach from understanding, rather then condemnation.

          • CP

            Have you ever been exposed to any of the “therapy” these groups practice? If not, do NOT speak out in favor of it as being “more humane” than allowing a person to follow what they were born to. Would you like to experience some of the aversion therapy practiced, and preached, by some of these groups? If so, have someone hook you up to a tazer and hit the trigger every time you looked at a member of the same sex. No lustful thoughts required, just the fact you looked. How long would it take you to decide to not even see members of your sex rather than suffer the repeated zaps? Just a thought, but also a fact.

          • Angel Wannabe

            Jay, I’m not condeming them, that’s Gods job, its my opinion, just like everyone else’s opinion here….

          • http://google rose

            I have asked many gay people male and female if they were molestered by older people when they were young and everyone of them said yes. Everyone of them remebered when and by who.

          • Robert Smith

            All those catholic priests making straight kids gay…

            And the church didn’t do anything to stop it until they were forced.

            How christian.

            Rob

          • Karolyn

            How “many” Rose? Of those I have known, none were molested – both men and women; and I have known a lot in my 65 years.

          • Angel Wannabe

            Your right Rose, they are mostly all abused or the Father is absent, I can give you 4 instances, that I know for a fact, where the Father was missing, In my Opinion, these guys long for a Male in there lives.

        • Robert Smith

          From Deer: ““marriage”, marriage is sanctioned by the church under God ”

          Absolutely false.

          Marriage is a CIVIL contract. Even atheists can get married.

          Besides, Bishop Spong will offer christian blessings to same sex marriages. Not all christians are so hateful.

          Rob

          • Angel Wannabe

            robbie not all Atheists are as miserable as your are either__Tracks run both directions!

          • Robert Smith

            Another lie from Angel. I’m not an atheist.

            Rob

          • Angel Wannabe

            your right robbie, I forgot, you worship our “Brutal God”..

      • http://gravatar.com/bychoosing Jay

        Robert, i checked out the site through the link you posted. Unfortunately, one would have to conclude that it was obviously written from a rigid, pro-homosexual position, and was replete with scathing criticism. and bias. The overall theme was rather basic, and unscientific; We’re right, and their wrong, in a nutshell! Well, that’s fine, as the twain shall never meet, or agree. Such is life, and such are human beings. At the end of the day, i suppose, we can agree to disagree. Interestingly, however, the writer went out of his/her way to point out that; “Some of NARTHs approximate 1,000 members are in fact ex-gays”. I was somewhat surprised that the writer didn’t pause long enough to inject the supposed, and dearly imbibed “theory”, guarded as sacrosanct by the lgbt community, that one is born as such, and has no choice in the matter!” Perhaps you could explain to us, Robert, that if one is born that way, how could there could possibly exist, ex-gays? Pray-tell!

      • Joe H

        Angel,
        Karolyn considers you, me, anybody straight perverse from her postings!! And her “phrasings” from the Bible that counermand the passages in the King James version are add ons and rewordings to try to cover their assets!!

      • http://naver samurai

        SSDD, eh Karolyn and Rob? Hey Rob, did you write that check yet? Like we have told you all before, they have the same rights as are written in the Constitution. Either from God, the Bill of Rights, or the ones given to us by government, 11th Amendment till the end. They also have equal protection under the law, actually more when they add on that hate crime crap. That can get you anoth 5-10 in the pen. They can have a civil union, but it cannot be a marriage. A marriage is when 1 man and 1 woman come together in the presence of God in holy matrimony. They can never be married! Marriages are held in the church. So if a state used its God given rights under the 10th Amendment and made such peverted things illegal, what would you say then? State’s rights, remember? Good posts fellow patriots! They are only attacking you so hard, because they are wrong and just want to sound big. They are only big in their own minds. FOR GOD AND COUNTRY!

      • Robert Smith

        samurai lies again: “A marriage is when 1 man and 1 woman come together in the presence of God in holy matrimony.”

        How do you explain married atheists?

        Rob

    • Robert Smith

      Hey Angel…

      “and to destroy the traditional family ”

      Just exactly how will your family be impacted? Please don’t let out any details.

      Or quit lying about how any family will be destroyed.

      Rob

      • Jay

        Its simple, Rob. Since, in every area of life, cognitive, emotional, social, developmental, at every phase of the life cycle, social evidence shows that there are measurable effects when children lack either a mother or a father. The evidence is overwhelming. Mountains of evidence, collected over decades, show that children need both mothers and fathers, and that, biological! This, as you will agree, same-sex marriage, CANNOT provide; irrespective of sincerest efforts from the same-sex, adoptive parents!

        • Karolyn

          Then we are in worse trouble than I thought, considering all the single parent households! Sorry, I can’t go along with that. I am going by my experience and what I have seen; and it negates what you stated.

          • Jay

            Yes, we are in trouble, Karolyn. Homosexuality is but one of the symptoms that plagues our nation, not the only one. The question then; what is the root cause?

          • Robert Smith

            That there brutal christian god made ‘em that way.

            Dare I say? In HIS image…

            Hey, that there brutal christian god ain’t married and the only other sexual activity is the rape of the girl Marry who he wasn’t married to.

            Yup, gays are made in that there christian god’s image. What a concept!

            Rob

          • Karolyn

            Jay – The root cause as I see it is greed and selfishness, which are entrenched because that is what society teaches. The great ME! ME! ME! If education, both at home and in public, was of a more spiritual nature, it would be an entirely different world. It is only because of the number of truly spiritual people in the world that the balance doesn’t totally slip. I am not talking religion either. I am talking spirituality – the fact (as deer pointed out) that we are spiritual beings having a physical experience. If more people were educated to the fact that there is much more to life than the physical plane, we could make such headway! People are too closed off from anything that doesn’t go along with the traditional – too afraid to push the envelope – too afraid to go against what they have been taught because they’ll go to hell. Actually, most people are too afraid to totally live, use their mind to its utmost, develop their spiritual nature.

      • Angel Wannabe

        Robbie, I’ve explained myself up farther on the thread, go there_ thanks!

        • Robert Smith

          You still haven’t told us how your family changes by gays being allowed to marry.

          Rob

          • Angel Wannabe

            robbie, us breeders keep society going, if the Gay lifestyle keeps being adopted, in a generation or so, we’ll be extinct__NOw a for a question for you__ why are you so insistant that the perverse life style, it the right of everyone to accept? We have just as much right to disagree as you have to agree?!

      • http://google rose

        What gay people do in their bedroom does not matter to me. But when they want to teach in schools that it is an alternative to the typical man and woman relationship, that is when I have a problem. When you are not able to speak out in public that it is an abnormal lifestyle. I remember as a child, my mom warning me that one day that we would be living in a world that will be like the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah. And remember saying “no way, that would be so gross and I would throw-up.” Well, the day is approaching quickly.

      • http://naver samurai

        Rob, knock off the nonsense. None of your posts bare any facts, sources, or common sense and not even worthy of a response. Haven’t made that popping noise yet? Karolyn, I have to agree with what you said about the me, me, me society of today. But isn’t it the gays that are crying me, me, me? Aren’t they the ones saying what about me? Look at me? What about my rights? What about my lifestyle? Yep, it does seem the me, me, me ways re here, especially in the gay community. Remember, we were not founded on the “if it feels good, do it” mentality.

        For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections. For even their women did change the natural use into that which was against nature.
        And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompense of their error which was meet.
        And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do these things which are not convenient.

        Romans 1:26-28

        In verse 26, it says that what lesbos do is not natural and against nature. 27 says that men liked other men, which is unnatural and perverse. What do you think they have received for their actions, other then time in hades? How about AIDS, social problems, ridicule, curses from God, and many other things. 28 says that they did these things, because they didn’t want to think about what God said or how they are to live by what He says. Ergo, it is unnatural, immoral, unethical, and not how God planned it. If it says it is wrong in the Bible, then it is wrong. If that idiot smilee (Or whatever name he is using) comes onto this site screaming about science, he can’t even prove these verses wrong with his science mumbo jumbo. FOR GOD AND COUNTRY!

      • http://naver samurai

        Rob? Karolyn? Smilee? Hello, are you all there? Care to respond to this last post of mine? If you do, list sources and facts. If you have none to counter the Bible, then just don’t answer at all. FOR GOD AND COUNTRY!

      • Karolyn

        samurai – I am not a Bible scholar, so I’ll pass on your quotes, but I will say that I just don’t believe it all; so why should I try to refute anything from the Bible?

      • http://naver samurai

        Nothing wrong with an honest answer. I’ll give you credit for showing courage in answering, Karolyn. Have a good weekend. FOR GOD AND COUNTRY!

      • Smilee

        Sammie

        This is a constituional issue not a biblicall one no a response to your post would apply

      • http://naver samurai

        Show me where marriage or behavior is covered in the Constitution. We can start there. What? They aren’t there? Ergo, it is not a Constitutional matter. You lose again. FOR GOD AND COUNTRY!

        P.S. Since this country was founded on Judeo-Christian beliefs, the Bible, and the 10 Commandments, this certainly would make this a Biblical issue.

      • Robert Smith

        Another lie from samurai: “P.S. Since this country was founded on Judeo-Christian beliefs, the Bible, and the 10 Commandments, this certainly would make this a Biblical issue.”

        Nope. There is no place in the Constiution where it says anyone has to put YOUR god before any other.

        BTW, are there any quoites from your bible in our Constiution?

        Another lie from samurai.

        Rob

      • http://naver samurai

        Actually, God and Jesus are mentioned in the Constitution and God is mentioned 4 times in the Declaration of Independence. Neeeeed to be making that popping sound. FOR GOD AND COUNTRY!

      • Robert Smith

        samurai claims: “God and Jesus are mentioned in the Constitution ”

        I seem to have missed it. Can you show us the quote?

        Rob

      • Robert Smith

        samurai says: “If you have none to counter the Bible, then just don’t answer at all. ”

        No need to counter your bible. I don’t follow it, believe in it, and don’t care for your interpritations using it for hate.

        Rob

  • http://jenersea@comcast.net jenersea

    If you believe in GOD’s word that marriage was instituted by GOD himself and to be only between one man and one woman, then homosexual marriage is not valid. It then does destroy the value of marriage because in GOD’s eyes it is not valid and cannot exist. So call it whatever you want it cannot be marriage, and everyone who supports it will be called to account for it by GOD one day. It is sin, just like other sin is sin. This is GOD’s rules not mine. GOD makes the rules and they are just and fair, just because you do not agree with them does not make them wrong nor does it free you from accounting for it one day.

    • Karolyn

      IF you are a Christian, I guess that is true for you if you follow the traditional translations of the Bible(There are many interpretations of the Bible that have conflicting understanding.).

      • http://naver samurai

        It is not the different translations that are important. It is what it says and the meanings behind God’s word that counts. Don’t keep beating the dead horse with the little, unimportant things. FOR GOD AND COUNTRY!

      • Karolyn

        And you are an ultimate source for knowing what God’s meaning is behind the words? Many words in Greek are difficult to translate; and there are different meanings that people have gleaned from them – sometimes leading to totally different messages.

      • http://naver samurai

        ell, you have made one point that is true, I don’t speak Greek, but my brother does. I have the King James Version, the official translation of the Presbyterian Church. Its not what people believe, but the meaning behind the words. What did God mean whe he said these things? What was Jesus talking about? These are more important then just what someone says. FOR GOD AND COUNTRY!

      • Karolyn

        samurai – The point is if the meaning of the word is taken one way it means one thing and vice versa. There are Greek and Aramaic words that can be translated to mean different things. No one can REALLY know God’s meaning for certain. It is all a matter of faith. So, you have faith that it is just as translated in your Bible. Well, I and millions of others don’t. s the fact that who knows how many mistakes the scribes could have made in transcribing the words.

      • http://naver samurai

        That may be your belief, but I’ll believe in what it says to the letter. FOR GOD AND COUNTRY!

    • Robert Smith

      From jenersea: “If you believe in GOD’s word that marriage was instituted by GOD himself and to be only between one man and one woman,”

      Then how do you explain hte Mormons?

      BTW, how do you explain that atheists are allowed to marry in America?

      And! Can you tell us one thing you your life that changed because of any gay marriage?

      Rob

  • Gary

    The so called (1% of the population) Gay community will go-a-way when Christ returns along with the rest of the sexual deviants.

    • NC

      Gary, if Jesus kicks out all the married couples who engage in oral sex (deviants) he won’t have enough people in heaven to have a tennis tournament!

      • Deerinwater

        not to mention many other less traditional games homosexuals seem to enjoy.

      • Angel Wannabe

        NC, your tryin to find excuses to support the GaY agenda, go read Song of Songs in the Bible that will tell you, what God thought of sex between an Man and Woman….

      • http://google rose

        the marriage bed is not defiled

      • http://naver samurai

        Care to cite a source showing the numbers of married couples that engage in oral sex? Is this the voice of experience? Do you do these things with you husband? FOR GOD AND COUNTRY!

      • Karolyn

        samurai – Does it say anywhere in the Bible that oral sex is wrong? What happens between two consenting adults is not for anyone to judge.

      • http://naver samurai

        I’m not judging anyone Karolyn. I’m just asking him to show a source. BTW Care to show me where it says it is OK in the Bible? FOR GOD AND COUNTRY!

      • Robert Smith

        Samurai demands: ” BTW Care to show me where it says it is OK in the Bible?”

        Why?

        Not everyone follows your bible babble. So why should it make any difference to those who aren’t interested in it?

        Rob

    • Karolyn

      samurai – You have to be kidding. You don’t think that the majority of married couples perform oral sex?

      • http://naver samurai

        Care to cite a source showing the numbers that do and the numbers that don’t? Not every married couple does oral sex. FOR GOD AND COUNTRY!

      • eddie47d

        Does that mean he has to peek into everyones bedroom? LOL

      • Smilee

        Sammie

        Do you engage in oral sex???? Your wife???? If not try it you may like it!!!

      • http://naver samurai

        I can care less if someone does or not, just asking for a source. Voice of experience with your better half? What’s his name? FOR GOD AND COUNTRY!

  • Dano

    Marriage is a contract w the state government. They recieve control over any children, real estate, retirement, cash, assets-liab, death benefits, etc. Why are people battling to enter into state contracts that aren,t necessary, retirement benefits, healthcare for spouses I would expect. Marriage isn,t a govt function, state or federal, where is it writen that it is? Its in the Bible though.

    • Karolyn

      Where is it in the Bible?

      • Joe H

        Genesis 2: 24, 25. “Therefore shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall cleve unto his WIFE:and they shall be one flesh. And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed.

      • http://naver samurai

        Well said Joe H, fellow patriot! By how much Karolyn said she has looked at the Bible, I’m surprised that she didn’t know that. Make you wonder just how many times she has actually read it. FOR GOD AND COUNTRY!

      • eddie47d

        The Bible also says Blessed Are The Peacemakers but we know how that works out.No one listens to them until after the destruction has occurred.

      • http://naver samurai

        Hopefully, more people on this site start listening to we God fearing patriots before any destruction occurs. FOR GOD AND COUNTRY!

      • Robert Smith

        Joe says: “And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed.”

        Try that in Walmart. Paticularly the “cleve” part ;-)

        You will get just as arrested as the guy stealing sox did.

        IOW, your bible isn’t absolute.

        Rob

  • Karolyn

    Excerpt from a well-researched article: “Are Gays a Threat to Our Children?”
    “And while this lie is horribly libelous to gay men and women, that’s only a small part of the problem. The real harm is to our children. As long as we remain suspicious of the wrong people, predators will continue to have free reign to abuse innocent children. If they remain free from scrutiny because everyone else is focusing on gays and lesbians, more young lives will continue to be shattered and more parents will suffer the agonizing heartache of learning that they trusted someone who destroyed their child’s future.

    We must not allow those leaders who oppose equal rights for gays and lesbians to cynically jeopardize our children’s safety to further their agenda. The consequences are far too severe for the next generation.”
    http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/Articles/000,002.htm

    • http://naver samurai

      ready have the same rights as are written in the Constitution, along with equal protection under the law (Actually, they are protected more with this hate crime nonsense.), so what is your point? You say that not all gays are pedifiles, but there are some that are. How about protecting our children from there ways, like not having manditory classes about their lifestyle? This would be a way of protecting our children, now wouldn’t it? FOR GOD AND COUNTRY!

      • Smilee

        Equal means the same in the equal protection clause, you can not discriminate against any gender, constituionally same sex marriage is required. Your opinipon has no force in law the Constituion does and it shoots your opinion down

      • http://naver samurai

        Bzzzz wrong answer. Still can’t show me where marriage is located in the Constitution? Like I said, equal rights, but you forget that marriage is not a right. It is 1 man and 1 woman coming together in the presence of God in holy matrimony. No excuses! No exceptions! No straying from the straight and narrow path! Remember, the 14th Amendment deals with former slaves and their children, not gays or gay marriage. I think you really need to study more. It is about race, not behavior. Neeeeed to be making that popping sound. FOR GOD AND COUNTRY!

      • Robert Smith

        From samurai: “You say that not all gays are pedifiles, but there are some that are. How about protecting our children from there ways, like not having manditory classes about their lifestyle?”

        Or send ‘em to church where a priest can get at them.

        Rob

      • Robert Smith

        From samurai: “Still can’t show me where marriage is located in the Constitution?”

        And where are the quotes from your christian bible in the Constitution?

        Your harassment is simply showing just how much you are willing to propagandize a the expense of honest social intercourse.

        Rob

    • Karolyn

      samurai – Marriage is not necessarily a coming together before God. Millions of people come together before a Justice of the Peace or a Wiccan priestess or whatever. Being married has nothing to do with God in the eyes of the law.

      • Robert Smith

        Reminder: NOBODY from the extreme right has explained how atheists can be married in America.

        If they can’t explain it they scream louder about something else.

        Rob

  • Jay

    Exposure to both sexes is vitally important to the developmental needs of children because it helps them to form their sexual identity, but there are many more areas where children are affected by the parenting of a mother and father. Researcher Henry Biller, who has written several books on the subject, explains some of the key areas:

    “Even if the father and mother behave in generally similar ways, they provide contrasting images for the infant … Mothers and fathers have different verbal styles when communicating … Involved fathers are more likely to stimulate the infant to explore and investigate new objects whereas mothers tend to engage their infants in relatively pre-structured and predictable activities … The father and mother offer the child two different kinds of persons to learn about as well as providing separate sources of love and support. …”

    According to science, there are hundreds of nuances about men and women that even newborn infants can readily distinguish and that make a difference in the way the child develops.

    • Karolyn

      How much research has been done regarding children raised by gays? What about the fact that homosexual couples are very social and have lots of friends? What about their families’ influence? What about children raised in villages by all the villagers? All I know is what I see; and what I see is well-adjusted, really good kids coming out of gay relationships. They are espcially intelligent, well-rounded, loving and accepting individuals.

      • http://gravatar.com/bychoosing Jay

        Contrary to the expectations of many, since their inception, circa 1970, gay-parenting studies have been almost unanimous in their official findings that there are “no notable differences between children reared by heterosexual parents and those reared by lesbian and gay parents,” and in finding lesbian and gay parents “to be as competent and effective as heterosexual parents.

        Social science researchers Robert Lerner and Althea Nagai, however, produced a 2001 survey that challenged the above contention. The work, entitled No Basis: What the Studies Don’t Tell Us about Same-Sex Parenting, surveyed 49 of the most prominent studies conducted to date, dismissing all without exception as of limited use at best. According to Lerner and Nagai, “the methods used in these studies are so flawed that these studies prove nothing. Therefore, they should not be used in legal cases to make any argument about ‘homosexual vs. heterosexual’ parenting. Their claims have no basis.” Their work postulated several basic traits of a good survey, and demonstrated how all 49 hopelessly failed to match these criteria. Of the 49, it accused 18 of “undue partiality,” and found 21 not to have a “heterosexual comparison group” with which to compare the homosexual group in question, making confident comparison difficult.
        It criticized a 1995 study by clinicians Tasker and Golombok for having a “ridiculously small” sample size, for instance, and dismissed the findings in Patterson’s 1994 study of lesbian mothers as “not valid.” (Notably, in one case where Patterson was asked to testify, the judge referred to her evidence as “questionable.”) Steven Nock, professor of sociology at the University of Virginia, also noted in a review of the studies that, among other errors, “all used inappropriate statistics….All had biased samples.” He added that the research is inconclusive, insufficient to justify any pronouncements, and “does not constitute a solid body of scientific evidence.”

        Despite official pronouncements to the contrary, there does exist evidence that same-sex parenting is harmful to children. Much of this may be drawn, ironically, from the studies examined above that purport to prove the opposite.

        The American Sociological Review published a survey by researchers Stacey and Biblarz in 2001 (cited in note 4) in which the authors reviewed 21 gay-adoption studies carried out between 1981 and 1998. They concluded that in many cases the conductors of those studies were guilty of bias, and of deliberately withholding information regarding factors that would indicate precisely the opposite of the results originally claimed.
        Stacey and Biblarz are in favor of gay rights and even criticize key conservative figures. Despite personal feelings, then, they still exposed the bias inherent in many of these studies. Stacey said of the studies, which had found that the children raised in gay homes did not differ from those raised in normal homes, “That doesn’t appear to be true. It’s time to…look at it with eyes wide open.” She also noted that “we say there are some differences, and that people have shied away from acknowledging them for fear that this would inflame homophobia.” Stacey and Biblarz are not alone in their misgivings. In 2002 the Christian Institute in Britain published the work Children as Trophies, which examined 144 gay-adoption studies, thus making it the largest such survey in Europe. The survey concluded that gays actually make worse parents than heterosexuals.

        A case in point is Jakii Edwards, who was placed in the care of a lesbian foster mother at an early age. According to Jakii, “She would put my brother and I in the same bed with her and her lover, and she would get in the bed and they would make love right there in the bed with my brother and I in there…The pain that I dealt with was tremendous, and affected me for a long time. I hated lesbians for a long time, because I felt that all lesbians represented my mother to me.”

        At the end of the day, therefore, gay-parenting studies should be deemed limited at best; they are far from conclusive by modern science’s rigid standards and in need of further work. What this means at the very least is that we should not use such studies as a basis for making legal decisions. This automatically raises the question as to why they have been so influential in the past, and points once again to the hand of political correctness.

      • http://naver samurai

        Well said Jay! I guess Karolyn won’t be able to refute anything you have said. FOR GOD AND COUNTRY!

      • Karolyn

        Actually, samurai, the first paragraph says it all – the there appears to be no difference in homosexual and straight parenting. As far as the case mentioned, regarding the deviant behavior by the mother, I do not believe that is the norm. Contrary to what you might believe, homosexuals are really no different than anyone else. There are even homosexual couples that don’t have sex, especially when they get older, just like straight couples. And, yes, I have known some older couples. IT IS NOT all about sex! It is about love, family, relationships and being human. You seem to think that gays and lesbians don’t value those things.

      • http://gravatar.com/bychoosing Jay

        Karolyn: Actually, samurai, the first paragraph says it all – the there appears to be no difference in homosexual and straight parenting.

        Wrong Karolyn, that is the unscientific claim/assertion, offered as fact, by questionable sources, due to purposely having skewed data, that is refuted by Social science researchers, Robert Lerner and Althea Nagai, among others, further down the article! Sorry…you read only what you wanted to read, or what agreed with you, and that, out of context, as it were. A pernicious habit, and very common, a habit shared in particular, among the critics of Holy Scriptures.

      • http://naver samurai

        This sounds like one of the many things done by the left these days. There are many Joseph Goebbels’ in their ranks. Another good post Jay. I guess we have to be patient with Karolyn, as she is still continuing to learn. FOR GOD AND COUNTRY!

      • Karolyn

        Jay & samurai – For every study supporting anything that is not proven scientific fact, another study can be found to refute it. If I had as much time as Jay does for research, I would be able to find more evidence.

      • Robert Smith

        posted: “Robert Lerner and Althea Nagai”

        These nuts have been completely refuted.

        Check out: http://holybulliesandheadlessmonsters.blogspot.com/2009/04/robert-knight-uses-biased-work-in.html

        “Lerner and Nagai are not credible; they are researchers-for-hire who make their living writing studies for conservative organizations and finding results that support conservative social policies. One such organization funded a Lerner study that found African Americans were over three times more likely to be acquitted of rape charges than whites. To reach this conclusion Lerner looked at a mere five jury trials involving black defendants. (Roger Parloff, “Speaking of Junk Science,” The American Lawyer, January 1997.)”

        Rob

      • Libertytrain

        karolyn, I couldn’t agree with you more. Information is plentiful. Genuine accurate info is not.

  • hawkeye

    Get Rid of all of the Faggots in Washington who are changing God’s Laws!!!!! Now Everyone Knows it’s NOT Natural OR Normal For 2 Men OR 2 Women to go with each other! Also, a man and woman are able to reproduce offspring, which when they love each other is quite normal. These Faggots want to adopt and pollute other people’s children, and this is how the Faggots in Washington are planning to reduce the population, by promoting Faggotry.

    • Smilee

      No one is trying to change God’s law or man’s for that matter, in this case they only want existing man’s law enforced as in the rule of law being the correct thing to do.

      • http://naver samurai

        Since when do laws govern behavior and marriage? They are not in the Constitution, ergo they are not rights. You really need to quit lying, though I’m sure it is beyond your capacity to understand (Kang). FOR GOD AND COUNTRY!

      • http://gravatar.com/bychoosing Jay

        smilee: No one is trying to change God’s law or man’s for that matter, in this case they only want existing man’s law enforced as in the rule of law being the correct thing to do.

        Not laws, smilee. Rather, immorality, and enforcing through law; the practice, and the approval thereof! Btw smilee, who’s they? I assume you mean gays. Do you speak for all homosexuals? Are you a homosexual? I’ll venture to guess, you are not. What you are, however, is a half-baked, quasi-intellectual liberal, who wouldn’t recognize a cogent argument if it bit him/her in the azz! Further, you’re a bigot, a hetero-phoebe, and a froth-at-the-mouth, immoral, incontinent, racist maniac!

      • Robert Smith

        Hey Jay, you blather on about: “Rather, immorality, and enforcing through law; the practice, and the approval thereof! ”

        I think that ritualistic canabalism, transsubstation, and that dead guy on a stick is immoral. Wearing an execution device around your neck… Eewwwwwwww.

        Rob

  • hitthedeck

    Tom and Sam Joan and Sue what next Fido and Sue
    or Sis and Tom?

    • Robert Smith

      Hi hitthedeck…

      I’m not worried about my kids marrying the dog next door.

      Sorry about yours if you think we need laws to stop them.

      Rob

  • Deerinwater

    Jay says:
    February 16, 2012 at 9:14 am
    Yes, we are in trouble, Karolyn. Homosexuality is but one of the symptoms that plagues our nation, not the only one. The question then; what is the root cause?”

    Good question Jay. Root Cause? I’ve asked myself that a well and like everybody else read the books, articles and interviews. What personal experience that I’ve encountered over the years often offers more questions then answers.

    I think that there is more then one answer but it’s a global phenomena and not regional one that be with creation from the beginning.

    In some cases I know for a fact it’s conscious decision as I had women tell me so. They have become Jaded to the opposite sex for reasons of their own. But this fails to explain every case as I hear testimony from people saying they knew from an early age something wasn’t right. They were different and confused about it. They will hide these feeling for years, attempt to ignore them.

    I’ve have all but accepted the notion that the “spirit” itself is “gender’ed”. Or to say, even in the world of the spirit, we would find males and females. An odd thought is seems to me.

    Until mankind understands more , we are left to conclude a certain amount of random, happenstance exist in the creation of life. This random factor gives life itself the ability to adapt to change but like any “tool” the final outcome in not 100% predictable. Without dwelling on it, we seen often how life really is not “fair” to everyone.

    If you consider a DNA string is about 47 feet long offering a coded message, that repeats it’s self over and over again, small packets of information, a blue print for reconstructing of itself. ~ This creates the material world of life. At what point the spirit manifest it’s self, I’m at a lost. Some would say from the beginning, if so ~ we need adjust our understanding of “Fairness” and thoughts of predestination.

    • http://gravatar.com/bychoosing Jay

      Our wisdom, in so far as it ought to be deemed true and solid Wisdom, consists almost entirely of two parts: the knowledge of God and of ourselves. But as these are connected together by many ties, it is not easy to determine which of the two precedes and gives birth to the other. In the first place, no man can examine himself without first turning his thoughts towards the God in whom he lives and moves; because it is perfectly obvious, that the endowments which we possess cannot possibly be from ourselves; no, that our very being is nothing else than subsistence in God alone. In the second place, those blessings which unceasingly distil to us from heaven, are like streams conducting us to the fountain. Here, again, the infinitude of good which resides in God becomes
      more apparent from our poverty. In particular, the miserable ruin into which the revolt of the first man has plunged us, compels us to turn our eyes upwards; not only that while hungry and famishing we may thence ask what we want, but being aroused by fear may learn humility. For there exists in man something like a world of misery, and ever since we were stript of the divine attire our naked shame discloses an immense series of disgraceful properties every man, being stung by the consciousness of his own unhappiness, in this way necessarily obtains at least some knowledge of God. Thus, our feeling of ignorance, vanity, want, weakness, in short, depravity and corruption, reminds us, that in the Lord, and none but He, dwell the true light of wisdom, solid virtue, exuberant goodness. We are accordingly urged by our own evil things to consider the good things of God; and, indeed, we cannot aspire to Him in earnest until we have begun to be displeased with ourselves. For what man is not disposed to rest in himself? Who, in fact, does not so rest, so long as he is unknown to himself; that is, so long as he is contented with his own endowments, and unconscious or unmindful of his misery? Every person, therefore, on coming to the knowledge of himself, is not only urged to seek God, but is also led as by the hand to find him. -John Calvin

      • Karolyn

        Jay, The concept of God has been debated forever, and God is different things to different people. The ultimate state one can have is oneness with everything, which can only be found within oneself. The Bible might be considered a guidebook by many; however, only those who find their true selves by soul-searching can be truly happy. God is not some entity with a long white beard sitting in heaven just watching everything that happens. God is Universal thought, love, spirit; is the sum of everything; is everything; and we are each a part of it. The Bible is a collection of stories written by man. Although it might be divinely inspired (meaning coming from within that godness in each of us), that doesn’t mean it is not without the influence of humanness. Being true to our godliness, a great many of us cannot believe everything written in a book that was published, if you will, by people wanting to control the masses. Bottom line is we are here to love and be joyful. Why can’t people just live and let live? I guess it’s primarily because they’re afraid? Either that or they want to control everything and everybody. Man is born moral and corrupted by society rather than what you believe that man is born sinful. It’s all just so logical in my mind; and I thank God I turned from Christianity four years ago. Christianity fosters hate and fear. I have never been hateful; but now I am without that fear that was always in the back of my mind.

  • http://gravatar.com/bychoosing Jay

    Deep Throat isn’t just the nickname of the supposed source in the Watergate scandal that brought down President Richard Nixon. It also describes what North Americans are being forced to do with the leftist gay marriage agenda. The notion of equality is being used rampantly to leverage attacks on the traditional definition of marriage through the court system in both Canada and the USA. Equality can be overrated. Flat-chested women have no business working at Hooters Restaurants, because Hooters with A cups is basically just Denny’s. Young children shouldn’t hold down 9-to-5 jobs. Kids who took the short bus to school and were forced to wear those special platform shoes back when they weren’t actually hip shouldn’t be allowed to practice neurosurgery, even though denying them the opportunity to do so could be considered discriminatory on the basis of mental disability. If a bus pulls up to the curb and the driver is clutching the steering wheel with his teeth because he doesn’t have any hands or feet, then I’m sorry, but physical discrimination or not, I’ll be walking to work. I don’t want Mr. Itchy-Scratchy who has a visibly bad case of dandruff flaking out all over my steak at a five-star restaurant. And the list goes on.

    Discriminating against gays when it comes to marriage would also be a wise move. Various studies have shown that children from non-traditional families–lacking either a mother or a father’s influence–are more likely to attempt suicide, drop out of high school, commit crime, run away from home, or become teen parents. When society picks up the bill, then it also ought to be able to make the rules. But its not generally the gay community that’s whining about not being able to marry. Gays comprise a very small segment of the population, and they’re not clamoring to have their relationships legitimized through a religious institution such as marriage, when religion has, and always will, consider their lifestyle to be sinful. One of the few reasons ever given for why gays would actually want to marry is that they want legal benefits. According to the Gay and Lesbian Advocates and Defenders (GLAD) website, these benefits include access to family health and auto-insurance policies, family bereavement leave, and dependency benefits through workers compensation. They also want to marry so that they can drag each other through the court system in a messy divorce, just like straight people do.

    This last reason actually provides the best justification for allowing gay marriage. Picture gay Divorce Court, with singer/actress-turned-judge, Cher, deciding who gets the chaise lounge, the accent chair, the crock pot, and the Tom Cruise DVD collection. It’s hard to imagine gays wanting to sell out to an institution that has rebuffed them, just for the sake of cheap car insurance, a little time off, a few compo bucks, and legitimized access to Judge Judy and Jerry Springer. Gays don’t want marriage for gays. LIBERALS DO!

    The gay marriage agenda is only the latest attempt by leftist elites at social engineering and devaluing the concept of Holy Matrimony. The idea has been in the liberal playbook since the 1970s. Socialists hate the idea of traditional marriage, and prefer the common property model exemplified by Bill and Hillary Clinton. It’s a marriage that takes a village–not to raise a child, but to figure out which floozy Bill has been busy banging behind Hillary’s back on his morning McMuffin errands. Having a respectful, loyal husband is ‘patriarchal’, unless of course you’re progressive enough to allow him to openly cheat on you and totally disrespect you however he pleases while bragging to your friends about how hip your blase attitude makes you. Apparently, that’s supposed to be far more empowering for women.

    Gay marriage is a top-down shove, with little appetite for the notion being detected in the general public.

    • http://naver samurai

      Wel said, fellow patriot. FOR GOD AND COUNTRY!

    • Robert Smith

      Jay says: “Having a respectful, loyal husband is ‘patriarchal’, unless of course you’re progressive enough to allow him to openly cheat on you and totally disrespect you however he pleases while bragging to your friends about how hip your blase attitude makes you. ”

      Wanna explain that to right wing Newt?

      Rob

  • http://gravatar.com/bychoosing Jay

    Queer kids of queer parents against Gay-Marriage! Resist the Gay Marriage Agenda!

    http://queerkidssaynomarriage.wordpress.com/

    • Robert Smith

      Why resist Jay? It has zero impact on your life.

      Rob

  • http://gravatar.com/bychoosing Jay

    The Homosexual Agenda, or homosexual ideology, consists of a set of beliefs and objectives designed to promote and even mandate acceptance and approval of homosexuality, and the strategies used to implement such.

    The goals and means of this movement include indoctrinating students in public school, restricting the free speech of opposition, obtaining special treatment for homosexuals, distorting Biblical teaching and science, and interfering with freedom of association.

    Advocates of the homosexual agenda seek special rights for homosexuals that other people don’t have, such as immunity from criticism. Such special rights will necessarily come at the expense of the rights of broader society. Among all the liberal belief systems, the homosexual ideology is the most self-centered or selfish.

    Supreme Court Justice Antonin Scalia referred to the “so-called homosexual agenda” in Lawrence v. Texas, 539 U.S. 558 (2003) (dissenting opinion).

    Joseph P. Gudel, in That Which is Unnatural contended that the homosexual movement, has been militantly demanding not just the homosexuals’ right to do whatever they wish to do behind closed doors, but, more importantly, that society fully accept their lifestyle as both healthy and normal, even demanding special rights and legislation as an “oppressed minority.” Gudel quotes various sources evidencing this.

    In a 1987 speech to the National Press Club in Washington, homosexual spokesperson Jeff Levi proclaimed, “We are no longer seeking just a right to privacy and a protection from wrong. We also have a right — as heterosexual Americans already have — to see government and society affirm our lives”.

    In an article entitled “Gays on the March” in 1975, Time magazine quoted gay activist Barbara Gittings who stated: “What the homosexual wants, and here he is neither willing to compromise nor morally required to compromise — is acceptance of homosexuality as a way of life fully on a par with heterosexuality.” In response, Time opined, “It is one thing to remove legal discrimination against homosexuals. It is another to mandate approval….It is this goal of full acceptance, which no known
    society past or present has granted to homosexuals, that makes many Americans apprehensive.

    A primary goal of the homosexual agenda is to promote the lifestyle in public schools. This occurred quickly and intensely after gay marriage was imposed in Massachusetts, where homosexual relationships are taught to children as young as kindergartners, as recounted by the decision of Parker v. Hurley.

    In a 1992 report by John Leo in U.S. News and World Report, he notes some books which were part of New York City’s public school curriculum.

    The first-grade book, “Children of the Rainbow”, stated on page 145, which states that teachers must “be aware of varied family structures, including…gay or lesbian parents,” and “children must be taught to acknowledge the positive aspects of each type of household.” Another children book is Heather Has Two Mommies, which is about a lesbian couple having a child through artificial insemination. Another book, Gloria Goes to Gay Pride, states, “Some women love women, some men love men, some women and men love each other. That’s why we march in the parade, so everyone can have a choice.” Leo commented, A line is being crossed here; in fact, a brand new ethic is descending upon the city’s public school system. The traditional civic virtue of tolerance (if gays want to live together, it’s their own business) has been replaced with a new ethic requiring approval and endorsement (if gays want to live together, we must ‘acknowledge the positive aspects’ of their way of life).

    Dr. Judith A. Reisman in her extensive Crafting “Gay” Children, reports that Harvard homosexual Toby Morotta, PhD, stated that in the 1970s, members of the Gay Activists Alliance – who were trained in the “zapping” of any who rebuffed homosexuality. And that these formed the “Gay Academic Union,” (GAU) which was made up of faculty and students in major universities. She states that the GAU has long fought for domination of its worldview within the academic community, and professional journals commonly assigned GAU and other homosexual peer reviewers to research touching on homosexuality, generally resulting in a quick death to possible unfavorable findings.

    • http://naver samurai

      True that! True that! FOR GOD AND COUNTRY!

  • http://gravatar.com/bychoosing Jay

    Strategies and psychological tactics.

    Homosexual activists are often seen as engaging in specious argumentation, such as attempts to controvert the consistent teaching of the Bible on homosexual relations, and using false analogies, in order to gain acceptance of homosexuality. One common argument used by homosexual activists seeks to compare their quest for equal rights to that of others. This argument is countered by the observation that blacks were able to peacefully argue that mankind should not be “judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character”, as the former yields no certain moral distinction. In contrast, homosexual activists seek acceptance of an immoral practice(s), and in addition, engage in certain coercive and manipulative means to do so. This includes the use of demonstrative protests, which appear to be designed to censure and intimidate those who oppose them in any way. In addition, one pro-homosexual commentator recently took the homosexual community to task for being racist in their practice of homosexuality.

    While not all homosexuals agree with the use of deceptive psychological tactics, these have been promoted by leading homosexual activists. The aforementioned book, After the Ball, is widely regarded as the handbook for the gay agenda, in which Harvard-trained marketing experts and social scientists Marshall Kirk (1957 – 2005) and Hunter Madsen advocated avoiding portraying gays as aggressive challengers, but as victims, while making those who opposed them as evil persecutors. As a means of the latter, they promoted jamming, in which Christians, traditionalists, or anyone else who opposes the gay agenda are publicly smeared. In any campaign to win over the public, gays must be portrayed as victims in need of protection so that straights will be inclined by reflex to adopt the role of protector.

    The purpose of victim imagery is to make straight people feel very uncomfortable, they suggested. Jamming homophobia (disagreement with homosexual behaviors) by linking it to Nazi horror was the strategy of Kirk and Madsen. Associate all who oppose homosexuality with images of Klansmen demanding that gays be slaughtered, hysterical backwoods preachers, menacing punks, and a tour of Nazi concentration camps where homosexuals were tortured and gassed. Thus, “propagandistic advertisement can depict homophobic and homo-hating bigots as crude loudmouths…”

    Kirk and Madsen’s open admission of their deceptive tactics is noted as most revealing: Our effect is achieved without reference to facts, logic, or proof. “…the person’s beliefs can be altered whether he is conscious of the attack or not” “The campaign we outline in this book, though complex, depends centrally upon a program of unabashed propaganda, firmly grounded in long-established principles of psychology and advertising.”

    Similarly, author Robert Bauman additionally records: “It makes no difference that the ads are lies… because were using them to ethically good effect, to counter negative stereotypes that are every bit as much lies, and far more wicked ones.”

    The need for Kirk and Madsen to engage in such manipulation may be seen as being due to their sober realization of the nature of the homosexual lifestyle. “In short, the gay lifestyle – if such a chaos can, after all, legitimately be called a lifestyle – it just doesn’t work: it doesn’t serve the two functions for which all social framework evolve: to constrain people’s natural impulses to behave badly and to meet their natural needs. While it’s impossible to provide an exhaustive analytic list of all the root causes and aggravants of this failure, we can asseverate at least some of the major causes. Many have been dissected, above, as elements of the Ten Misbehaviors; it only remains to discuss the failure of the gay community to provide a viable alternative to the heterosexual family.” Marshall Kirk died in 2005 at the age of 48. The cause of death has not been publicly revealed.

    Often cited as an early example of such tactics was the role of homosexual activists in persuading the American Psychiatric Association (APA) to remove homosexuality as a mental disorder from its Diagnostic and Statistical Manual Of Mental Disorders (DSM-II). Dr. Ronald Bayer, though being himself a pro-homosexual psychiatrist, described this removal as being the result of power politics, threats, and intimidation, rather than any new scientific discoveries. In so doing, like slavery before it, the homosexual agenda is seen to threaten basic freedoms, principally the First Amendment.

    The charge of homophobia has also been increasingly evidenced as being part of a means of intimidation used in promoting the homosexual agenda. Due to what homophobia has been made to denote, that of being a repressed homosexual, or possessing an irrational fear of being approached by homosexuals, or of being a bigot persecuting victims, the widespread use of the term “homophobic” attaches a powerful stigma to anyone who may even conscientiously oppose the practice of homosexuality, thus silencing many who might otherwise object to it.

    In relation to such oppression, psychologist Nicholas Cummings, former president of the American Psychological Association (APA), observed, “Homophobia as intimidation is one of the most pervasive techniques used to silence anyone who would disagree with the gay activist agenda.” As an example of such fear within the APA, in addressing 100 fellow professionals Cummings related that while writing “Destructive Trends in Mental Health,” with psychologist Rogers Wright, a number of fellow psychologists were invited to participate. However, these flatly turned them down, as they feared loss of tenure, loss of promotion, and other forms of professional retaliation. “We were bombarded by horror stories,” Dr. Cummings said. “Their greatest fear was of the gay lobby, which is very strong in the APA.[53]

    Noted homosexual activist and pornographer Clinton Fein, in his article, The Gay Agenda stated: “Homophobic inclinations alone, even without any actions, should be criminal and punishable to the full extent of the law.”

    Erik Holland, author of The Nature of Homosexuality, perceives that homosexuals have become so reckless in labeling others homophobic that “anyone who questions their labeling someone [is] a homophobe himself. Even quoting factual statistics about the connection between homosexuality and AIDS is allegedly homophobic.” In addition, according to pro-homosexual author Vernon A. Wall, “even acceptance of homosexuality can be seen as a form of homophobia, because to talk about the acceptance of homosexuality is to imply that there is something about homosexuality that needs acceptance.”[54]

    It may be speculated that if the liberal use of the term homophobia is not primarily a psychological tactic, then it indicates a psychological condition on the part of those who use it in which they imagine that those who oppose them are fearful of them, or of being one.
    I

    • Smilee

      WILL YOU EVER SHUT UP?????? THAT’S AN AWFUL LOT OF GARBAGE FOR ONE SITTING!!

      • http://naver samurai

        Will you ever shut up? Care to cite a source saying that his postings are garbage? I think it is because you cannot disprove what he has posted, as this is obvious with your lacking of understanding ability. The majority of Americans do not want it, so go peddle your papers somewhere else and take your lies with you. At least he has posted facts and sources, care to do the same? I guess that is a lot to ask of some stupid flunky atheist scientist, who only brings is mental problems (Superiority Complex) onto this site. Just go away and let we patriots right this country back onto course. FOR GOD AND COUNTRY!

      • http://gravatar.com/bychoosing Jay

        You mean truth, don’t you smilee? Too much truth, perhaps, for a half-baked liberal to digest in one sitting!

      • http://gravatar.com/bychoosing Jay

        The goals of the homosexual movement include:

        1. Ignoring Christian morals and discouraging religiously based laws.

        2. Reminding the world that marriage is a legal term and standing the in US, not a spiritual one as believed by Christians.

        3.Ignore the clear message of the Bible that homosexuality is a sin and an abomination unto God because their first amendment rights allow them to.

        4. Remind conservatives that there cannot be a gay gene, just like like there cannot be a “black gene” because complex things like these are caused by complex interactions between genes.

        5.Censoring evidence that the “gay gene” is a hoax. After all, it would have to be multiple genes interacting together.

        6. Censoring speech against homosexuality by branding it to possibly be “hate-speech”

        7. Censoring biblical statements condemning homosexuality.

        8. Lobbying for equal employment rights.

        9. Expand hate crimes legislation to include sexual orientation, which would be equally wrong for heterosexuals to do.

        10. Ending the military’s and Boy Scout’s restrictions on homosexuality.

        11. Stopping children as young as 5 years old from attending therapy to repair their sexual preference.

        12. Teach tolerance of homosexuals in schools. In places like Massachusetts and California, where the gay lobby is the strongest, it starts as early as preschool. They tell seven- or eight-year-old boys, “If you only like boys, there’s a chance you may be homosexual,” or “If you only like girls, maybe you are lesbian.” Children at that age also do not have the hormones to experience sexual attraction, so they cannot understand this yet.

        13. Demands protections from job discrimination. Suing an online dating website for discrimination. This was because sexual orientation is a federally protected group, as such, this company was breaking the law.

        14. Undermining the resolve of latent homosexuals so that their will becomes too weak to resist the temptations of homosexuality.

        15.Pushing for legalized adoption by gay individuals and couples. The state-by-state push for same-sex marriage can be viewed as a means to the above goals, or a goal in itself. An example of this would be the recent New Hampshire law that makes same-sex civil unions legal. Although notable gains toward achieving its goals continue to manifest, homosexual activists have recently been expressing a high level of dissatisfaction with the Obama administration. Commenting on such, Massresistance.org, an organization which opposes the homosexual agenda in Massachusetts, noted that the President has,

        -signed an order extending federal benefits to same-sex partners.

        -pushed an extreme hate crimes bill in Congress.

        -declared his intention to repeal the Defense of Marriage.

        -pushed a pro-homosexual and transgender version of the Employment Non-Discrimination Act.

        -appointed homosexual activists to high level positions, including Harry Knox, of the homosexual lobby group Human Rights Campaign, and Kevin Jennings, founder of the Gay, Lesbian, Straight Education Network (GLSEN), which educates kids in the public schools.

        -declared February to be “Gay, Lesbian, Bisexual, and Transgender Pride Month.”

        -Demanded the State Department allow gay couples to use their married names (from marriages or civil unions) on US passports.

        In light of all of the the above, it should be clear; that laws, the Constitution, and the use of government, have been surreptitiouslyThe goals of the homosexual movement include:

        Ignoring Christian morals and discouraging religiously based laws.
        Reminding the world that marriage is a legal term and standing the in US, not a spiritual one as believed by Christians.
        Ignore the clear message of the Bible that homosexuality is a sin and an abomination unto God because their first amendment rights allow them to.
        Remind conservatives that there cannot be a gay gene, just like like there cannot be a “black gene” because complex things like these are caused by complex interactions between genes.
        Censoring evidence that the “gay gene” is a hoax. After all, it would have to be multiple genes interacting together.[13]
        Censoring speech against homosexuality by branding it to possibly be “hate-speech”[14][15][16]
        Censoring biblical statements condemning homosexuality[17]
        Lobbying for equal employment rights.[18][19]
        Expand hate crimes legislation to include sexual orientation, which would be equally wrong for heterosexuals to do.[20]
        Ending the military’s and Boy Scout’s restrictions on homosexuality[21]
        Stopping children as young as 5 years old from attending therapy to repair their sexual preference[22]
        Teach tolerance of homosexuals in schools.
        In places like Massachusetts and California, where the gay lobby is the strongest, it starts as early as preschool. They tell seven- or eight-year-old boys, “If you only like boys, there’s a chance you may be homosexual,” or “If you only like girls, maybe you are lesbian.” Children at that age also do not have the hormones to experience sexual attraction, so they cannot understand this yet.
        Demands protections from job discrimination. [23]
        Suing an online dating website for discrimination. This was because sexual orientation is a federally protected group, as such, this company was breaking the law. [24]
        Undermining the resolve of latent homosexuals so that their will becomes too weak to resist the temptations of homosexuality[25]
        Pushing for legalized adoption by gay individuals and couples[26]

        The state-by-state push for same-sex marriage can be viewed as a means to the above goals, or a goal in itself.[27] An example of this would be the recent New Hampshire law that makes same-sex civil unions legal.[28]

        Although notable gains toward achieving its goals continue to manifest, homosexual activists/liberals have recently been expressing a high level of dissatisfaction with the Obama administration. Commenting on such, Massresistance.org, an organization which opposes the homosexual agenda in Massachusetts, noted that the President has,

        -signed an order extending federal benefits to same-sex partners.

        -pushed an extreme hate crimes bill in Congress.

        -declared his intention to repeal the Defense of Marriage.

        -pushed a pro-homosexual and transgender version of the Employment Non-Discrimination Act.

        -appointed homosexual activists to high level positions, including Harry Knox, of the homosexual lobby group Human Rights Campaign, and Kevin Jennings, founder of the Gay, Lesbian, Straight Education Network (GLSEN), which educates kids in the public schools.

        -declared February to be “Gay, Lesbian, Bisexual, and Transgender Pride Month.”

        -Demanded the State Department allow gay couples to use their married names (from marriages or civil unions) on US passports.

      • Karolyn

        Jay – Not necessarily too much truth, just too much. Why does everything have to be analyzed to death? As I said before, there is evidence on each side to support its beliefs, so we are always at an impasse.

      • Karolyn

        Jay – Having neither the time, nor the inclination to address each point on your agenda list, I just have to say that there doesn’t appear to be anything wrong with any of them.

      • Robert Smith

        Samurai asks: “Care to cite a source saying that his postings are garbage? ”

        Already done that for several others.

        It’s right wing propaganda of the worst sort and easily refuted, as it has been throughout this thread.

        Rob

      • Robert Smith

        Jay posted: “Massresistance.org, an organization which opposes the homosexual agenda in Massachusetts, noted that the President has,…”

        And any of this stuff is a problem because?????????

        Shouldn’t a partner have medical care? Shouldn’t the kids be taken care of? If an opposite gender spouse can travel why not a same sex? What harm is ANY of that to you?

        Rob

  • Karolyn
    • Robert Smith

      Yup, Spong is one of my favorites.

      I’ve often commented around these forums how sad it is that so many christians are controlled through fear.

      The really sad part is that they try to control others with empty threats.

      Rob

      • http://gravatar.com/bychoosing Jay

        John Spong, long ago left the Christian faith, although he continues dishonestly to hold a position as a bishop in the Episcopal Diocese of Newark. His name is passing out of memory for many, and his contributions will probably soon be forgotten. Good riddance, to bad rubbish!

        • Karolyn

          Jay – Have you ever even given the smallest thought to any possibility of him or others who believe as he does that they could be right? Or are you so fearful of a punishing God that you can’t even consider it? That is what I have found to be true. Most Christians I have spoken to about a different concept are just too fearful to even talk about it. I know I was fearful when I was a Christian and my friend told me to be very careful of New Age because it was “of the devil.”

      • http://gravatar.com/bychoosing Jay

        K: Jay – Have you ever even given the smallest thought to any possibility of him or others who believe as he does that they could be right?

        J: Of course i’ve considered what spong had to say, and have determined that he, and others of same ilk, are wrong!

        K: Or are you so fearful of a punishing God that you can’t even consider it?

        J: Fearful? Fearful of what; that God will punish me for considering non-sense?
        Non-sense! It is for this reason that God endowed man with intellect, and that, for the purpose to rightly appraise what is non-sense, and what is truth. There is no punishment for such application of spiritual acumen.

        K: That is what I have found to be true. Most Christians I have spoken to about a different concept are just too fearful to even talk about it.

        J: This doesn’t apply to me, K; as you should well know by now, i do not shy from any and all discussions, regardless of topic. You are right, however, i have met a few, as you described. But such anomaly is not exclusive to Christians.

        K: I know I was fearful when I was a Christian and my friend told me to be very careful of New Age because it was “of the devil.”

        J: Sad, and unfortunate, that you didn’t take their warnings to heart; they were right!

        • Karolyn

          Fortunately, Jay, we all have the freedom to choose our own paths. Far be it for me to tell anyone theirs is not the right one.

      • http://gravatar.com/bychoosing Jay

        K: Far be it for me to tell anyone theirs is not the right one.

        J: But you do, all the time! Far be it for me to have to point that out…

    • James

      Karolyn, I agree. In the Old Testament, the Hebrew ‘Sheol’ occurs 65 times. It was translated as ‘The grave’ 31 places; as ‘the pit’ 3 places; and as ‘hell’ 31 places. One of the places it was tanslated ‘hell’ pertained to King David as being there, while King David was one of the most revered men in the Bible. The immediate afterlife of ‘heaven or hell’ was taught for over a thousand years before the Bible was translated into English. Translaters were obviously conforming the Bible to what they had come to believe.

      • Robert Smith

        And contemporary translateors are using it for hate.

        It’s sad that a collection of stories once setting a fine example of how to conduct one’s life is being used as a literal weapon to punish others.

        Rob

      • James

        Rob, The Bible says the dead remain in their graves until they are resurrected, and the first resurrection occurs at Christ’s Second Coming.
        Concerning ‘hell’ the Roman church invented an intermediate place one goes to “Purgatory.” This is a place where goes until his last sins are purged before he may enter heaven. The more requiem prayers and financial offerings fellow Catholics make, shortens the time the departed will spend there. There is no mention of any such place in the Bible.

        • Karolyn

          The point are making is that tee is no hell.

      • Karolyn

        Sorry – “there” is no hell.

      • James

        Karolyn, That was the point I was agreeing to. There is no hell., there’s only the grave.

        • Karolyn

          OK – I don’t know what I was thinking! I was Catholic, and that purgatory deal always puzzled me. And then there’s limbo where unbaptized babies go.

      • Libertytrain

        sorry Karolyn, Limbo is gone – Has been for a long time:
        “Never formal doctrine
        A church decision to abolish limbo has long been expected. Benedict and his predecessor, the late Pope John Paul II, expressed misgivings about the concept. Benedict, when he was still Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger and the church’s top enforcer of dogma, said he viewed limbo as a mere “theological hypothesis.” Never part of formal doctrine because it does not appear in Scripture, limbo was removed from the Catholic catechism 15 years ago.”
        http://articles.latimes.com/2007/apr/21/world/fg-limbo21

      • http://gravatar.com/bychoosing Jay

        How do you know that there is no hell, Karolyn, and James?

        • Karolyn

          Jay, How do you know there is?

      • http://gravatar.com/bychoosing Jay

        I suspected that that would be your answer. But, i, did not make any claim on this thread, regarding hell; whether it exists, or not; you did! So why won’t you answer my challenge, and back-up your assertion; “There” is no hell. Since i know that you will not answer, i will take the liberty, and rob you of your right to answer the question. The fact is, neither the Christian, nor the atheist can prove , or disprove, the existence of hell, much less heaven. Both choose to believe by faith, and, i suppose, both have the right to voice their beliefs, with confidence, unfortunately, without confirmation from science!

      • Karolyn

        Jay – You suppose?

      • http://gravatar.com/bychoosing Jay

        Yes, i suppose. I also answer questions. Do you?

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