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Marine Who Criticized Obama Faces Discharge

March 23, 2012 by  

Marine Who Criticized Obama Faces Discharge
Sgt. Gary Stein, who started a Facebook page called Armed Forces Tea Party, was informed by the Marines that he violated a Pentagon policy barring troops from political activities.

A Marine sergeant who made online comments vowing to stand up to the Constitution and criticizing President Barack Obama and his policies is facing dismissal from the Corps for his actions.

According to The Associated Press, Sgt. Gary Stein, who started a Facebook page called Armed Forces Tea Party, was informed by the Marines that he violated a Pentagon policy barring troops from political activities.

The nine-year Marine veteran said he started the page to encourage fellow service members to exercise their free speech rights. Stein was first cautioned by his superiors at Camp Pendleton in 2010, after he launched the Facebook page and criticized Obama’s healthcare overhaul. He volunteered to take down the page while he reviewed the rules at the request of his superiors. Upon determining that he was not in violation of the rules, Stein relaunched the page.

Last week, in response to a post in which Stein said he would refuse to follow unlawful orders from the President, Stein’s superiors barred him from using social media sites on government computers.

The Marines say Stein failed to follow Pentagon directives that say military personnel in uniform cannot sponsor a political club; participate in any TV or radio program or group discussion that advocates for or against a political party, candidate or cause; or speak at any event promoting a political movement. Officers also are not allowed to use contemptuous words against senior officials, including the defense secretary or the President.

Stein said in a statement: “The allegations drummed up against me are no more than an agenda by the Marine Corps to use me as an example. I have never spoken on behalf of the Marine Corps or in uniform.  I have stayed within guidelines DOD Directive 1344.10 and made sure to. If I am guilty of anything it would be that I am American, a freedom loving Conservative, hell bent on defending the constitution and preserving Americas greatness. I am no more the Leader of the Armed Forces Tea Party than any other of 18,000 members are. I just happen to be normal guy who started a facebook page and who hold the Tea Party values close my heart and believes the Tea Party can enact real change in this county. We are all leaders in the Tea Party!”

Sam Rolley

Staff writer Sam Rolley began a career in journalism working for a small town newspaper while seeking a B.A. in English. After learning about many of the biases present in most modern newsrooms, Rolley became determined to find a position in journalism that would allow him to combat the unsavory image that the news industry has gained. He is dedicated to seeking the truth and exposing the lies disseminated by the mainstream media at the behest of their corporate masters, special interest groups and information gatekeepers.

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  • s c

    I hope Sergeant Stein has a job lined up when the Marine Corps ‘dismisses’ him. Actually, the military doesn’t “dismiss” anybody. It takes the form of one of several options, and while a dishonorable discharge isn’t the life-slammer it used to be, I’m sure the W H has gone out of its way to tell the Marine Corps that Sergeant Stein’s presence is not to be tolerated.
    While this unravels, perhaps word will get back to the prez that his ‘presence’ in the W H is not exactly a topic that endears him to the Marines at their annual ball. For that matter, since we’ve never had to endure a prez like this one, it’s safe to say that members of all branches are seeing the guy in the W H as anything but a leader or a real Commander-in-Chief.
    I hope Sergeant Stein didn’t plan to make the Marine Corps a career. If he had a good president (as opposed to a prez), or a real leader (as opposed to whatever what’s-his-name is) or our military was brought home to CLOSE our borders, a career would have been an honorable goal. I wish you the best, Sergeant.
    May you not have to learn that this prez isn’t interested in our military any more than he is in finding or creating JOBS. Oh, for the good old days, when LBJ or RMN would have been an improvement (as screwy as they were).

    • simian pete

      Hey s c,

      The screwy voters put President Obama in office. Sgt. Stein puts his life on the line for all those screwy, effin retarded voters …

      Y’know s c, maybe America doesn’t deserve Sgt. Stein !!! He is a hero for doing what is right.

      • Robert Smith

        It’s actually very simple: He broke the rules.


      • Deerinwater

        He is not no damn hero! simpleton. He’s cleanly unworthy to serve since he can’t obey orders.

        Soldiers don’t enjoy such liberties and privileges as a personal opinion.

      • Debbie, TX

        If he is facing charges then Obama must face charges also. If the so called Commander in Chief doesn’t have to uphold the oath he took then why should the military Apparently the military has lost all respect for this scum ball of a President. It would be hard to follow orders from an idiot as Obama.

      • Steve E

        Note that he said he would not obey an “Unlawful Order” from the prez, not “any” order. Any armed forces personnel are instructed that they do not have to follow unlawful orders. There is the difference. Please be careful to note that.

      • CJ

        Deer was obvious NOT in the military. He wants a compliant drone in the services who will blindly follow without question. Unfortunately, KNOWING without a doubt what is an ‘unlawful’ order isn’t all that simple. The lowest private doesn’t have all the information to make that decision, and it is unlikely this Sgt. would either. He**, I’ve known some officers who didn’t have a clue, and they were in charge.



      • Wyatt

        He broke the rule’s , well that is a matter of interpretation . The Corp reprimanded him and had him review the regulations . The Sargent reviewed the rules and found nothing that prevented him from posting his web-site . Now either the rules are vague or the man is an idiot . I can’t accept that he is an idiotas he was a Marine Sargent and one doe’s not rise to that posistion in the Marine Corp if you are an idiot .

        My feeling is that some Office has taken offense and as someone looking to polish his career further is making an issue or that there is pressure from the White House to get rid of what it views as a trouble maker . There are many options open to the Corps by way of punishment for what is nothing beyond insubordination . Perhaps 30 days in the stockade and forfiture of pay , reduction of rank .But discharge ? No I SMELL Obama in this . He would want people who are to timid to refuse an unlawful order issued when he tries to use our military against us .

      • JeffH

        Deer & RS idiots both…”he broke the rules”…what he did was violate a Pentagon directive…does that constitute a rule or an order?

        Stein’s superiors barred him from using social media sites on government computers. If he continued to use government computers then he is in violation, if not, then it’s my opinion that the military overstepped and this move was politically motivated from a higher authority than the Pentagon. The thugs in the Obama Administration aren’t unfamiliar with “strong arm tactics” and “bullying” to supress anything that they may construe as a negative to their “cause or agenda”.

        As Mr. Stein pointed out, he “stayed within guidelines DOD Directive 1344.10 and made sure to.”

        I’ll refer you to DOD 1344.10…

        NUMBER 1344.10
        February 19, 2008

        SUBJECT: Political Activities by Members of the Armed Forces

        4.1. General

        4.1.1. A member of the Armed Forces on active duty may: Register, vote, and express a personal opinion on political candidates and issues, but not as a representative of the Armed Forces. Promote and encourage others to exercise their voting franchise, if such promotion does not constitute use of their official authority or influence to interfere with the outcome of any election. Join a partisan or nonpartisan political club and attend its meetings when not in uniform, subject to the restrictions of subparagraph.

      • JeffH

        I believe the jury is still out on this issue and it boils down to whether he was or was not representing the “military” with his comments. I don’t believe all of the facts are out and it’s a little premature to denegrate him.

        “I’m completely shocked that this is happening,” Stein said. “I’ve done nothing wrong. I’ve only stated what our oath states that I will defend the constitution and that I will not follow unlawful orders. If that’s a crime, what is America coming to?”

        Stein said his statement was part of an online debate about NATO allowing U.S. troops to be tried for the Quran burnings in Afghanistan.

        In that context, he said, he was stating that he would not follow orders from the president if those orders included detaining U.S. citizens, disarming them or doing anything else that he believes would violate their constitutional rights.

        The Marine Corps said Stein is allowed to express his personal opinions as long as they do not give the impression he is speaking in his official capacity as a Marine.

        Stein said he planned to fight the charges. He had applied to extend his service, which was set to expire in a few months.

      • Maryland Freestater

        For those of you here who think he did something wrong, well, I beg to differ. He played by the rules and got screwed for it. The US military is not a democracy, it’s a dictatorship. By the same token ‘President’ Obama should be held responsible to tghe UCMJ and have his ass Leavenworthed, the probably-not-American @$$h0l&.

      • alberta61

        The good sergeant deserves a medal for standing up to Obama, his illegal presidency and his ant-Constitutional crap. That’s one of many Marines I’m definately proud of.

      • recce1

        Deerinwater, where in the UCMJ does it say that military members can’t have personal opinions or even express them? Those who served never surrendered their Constitutional rights.

        However, the restrictions on active duty personnel are that they can’t make political statements while in uniform or on duty, can’t be officers in political organizations, can’t claim they’re representing the military, nor can they use government equipment in doing so. These are common sense restrictions.

        For example, please consider the case of Gen. MacArthur. As an active duty officer he publicly opposed Pres. Truman on policy during the Korean War. Although MacArthur was strategically correct, he was far out of line. Truman did the right thing in forcing MacArthur to retire. Had MacArthur retired and then spoken against Truman he would have been right.

        So the question is, did Sgt. Stein violate any of these restrictions? The only possible one would seem to be if he used government computers to post his comments. That’s an important issue.

        In addition, Steve E. makes a very important point. Sgt. Stein said he wouldn’t obey any unlawful order. Not only does a military member need not obey such orders, they MUST not. That’s also in the UCMJ.

        • Deerinwater

          “Deerinwater, where in the UCMJ does it say that military members can’t have personal opinions or even express them? Those who served never surrendered their Constitutional rights. ”

          Perhaps you might enlist and see how that works for you my friend.

          There is no touchy feely in the military ~ You don’t ask a killing machine for any “opinion”.

          Maybe you don’t know what being a good soldier means?

          Being a good soldier is a man that you can give 10 minutes and he can get 8 minutes sleep.

          Being a good soldier is a man that can work as a “unit” and will die for his buddies if he must.

          Being a good soldier is a man that wants to go home and when he’s home, he want to go back to soldiering.

          and McArthur was a serious liability too both our nation and the men that served under him.

          McArthur and Patton both had serious ego problems that created unique hardships on senior staff. A loose canon on a pitching deck don’t care who’s leg it crushes, somebody is going to get hurt. It’s like calling artillery in on top of yourself and fire for effect. The only advantage you have is that you know what is about to be delivered.

          There is no place for personal ego in the military. You work as one.

          It’s not complicated, a soldiers job is not to die for their country but to make the enemy die for his.

          There is only one thing that a soldier can’t do and that quite doing what he’s told to do.

          This is the kind of soldier our armed forces expect to have and works to produce, anything less is unacceptable.

          If a solider wants more control and input, he/she earns it. You want to be a leader of men, show us that you can follow .

          • recce1

            Deerinwater, I see you didn’t answer my question. Why not? Where in the UCMJ does it say or imply that military members can’t have personal opinions or express them? Of course there are commonsense restrictions which I mentioned.

            However, being a good soldier does not mean being a “good German.” Do you not understand that? Sgt. Stein’s only violation may have been using government computers to post his comments. That is a violation of regulation, but not one that calls for a dishonorable discharge, normally it would be an Article 15. The only reason for calling for a dishonorable discharge is because he opposes Mr. Obama’s unconstitutional actions.

            Of course I do recall about Leftists who called for soldiers to refuse to go to Vietnam, Iraq, and Afghanistan. I know of one who likely sabotaged a sub killing over a hundred men and another who sabotaged a B-52 causing it to crash killing the entire crew. Those saboteurs were considered heroes by the Left.

            In any event, most of the best generals I know about had serious ego issues. Arnold, Jackson, Grant, Sherman, Custer (a colonel at the time of his death), Patton, MacArthur, LeMay, and others while great generals had outsized egos. Perhaps it comes with the territory for many. Not all were like Washington, Lee, or Eisenhower. As I said, Truman was right in relieving MacArthur of command and forcing him to retire. I take it you missed that.

            By the way, having served for over 20 years including during the Vietnam War mostly as a combat crewman, including with two men I believed were good generals, I think that did qualify as enlisting. Did you serve?

      • Saul T. Pepper

        “The screwy voters put President Obama in office”. (simian pete)…

        You’ve got it all wrong monkey boy.. Voters who wanted change voted for Obama who offered this change.. Nothing disgraceful in that.. Nothing ‘screwy’ about that unless you LIKED the Bush’s status quo.. Only as an AFTER thought, in HINDSIGHT may one be called screwy and I say, nay! Not even then because we didn’t know that he wasn’t going to keep his word just as you ‘don’t know’ whether yours will either, so don’t go around accusing otherwise normal Americans with normal hopes “SCREWY”.. Else it just might come back on you sometime in the future.

      • Saul T. Pepper

        I might add, however: “all those screwy, effin retarded voters” … Could be in effect during this “RE-ELECTION”.. Of that, I’m apt to agree with you but only as the “Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice.. shame on me” syndrome applies. As everyone knows, we have at least been short changed this time (even hard line Dems should be able to agree to that) but that wasn’t the Obama voters fault, that was Obama’s doing himself.. But if they do it again as they did before (and with what the three are proposing, this could very well become a necessity in accordance as to who actually challenges Obama) then their truly brain dead. Sorry, I didn’t mean to change the subject but this ‘screwy’ comment really pissed me.. Now, back to our regularly scheduled topic…

      • Mike

        He didn’t break the rules – he’s actually following them. The military takes an oath to follow the constitution and uphold the bill of rights. Hats off to the man. People need to wake up. Do any of you drones know why they’re hiring over 100k people in the US to staff the FEMA camps? Who do you think are going in there once the 2nd amendment is successfully repealed and they start the door-to-door gun confiscation that’s already been planned?

      • Alex Frazier

        Robert Smith and Deerinwater, our soldiers swear an oath to uphold the Constitution, and to defend our country against all enemies, foreign and domestic. When a government forces us to endure a long series of abuses and usurpations, it is our duty to remove that government.

        This Marine not only didn’t break the rules, but was doing precisely what he as a Marine was supposed to do. We have corrupt politicians who are turning our country into a socialist state, when the Constitution guarantees us a Republican form of government. They are ignoring, circumventing, corrupting, and destroying the Constitution this Marine has sworn to uphold and defend. The government is making itself an enemy of the people, and this Marine is sworn to defend us from domestic enemies.

        I realize you are both liberal democrats. To each their own. But are you really so party-blind that you can’t see what’s happening in our country? This isn’t a Bush/Obama debate. This is a government debate. Both sides are doing the same thing. They are trying to get us under their thumb.

        And it’s this Marine’s duty to do something about it. You should rather support him than criticize him.

        • Deerinwater

          “This isn’t a Bush/Obama debate. This is a government debate. Both sides are doing the same thing. They are trying to get us under their thumb.”

          I’d be more inclined to agree with you IF; you wasn’t so damn “late” coming to the “party” and being so slow to realizing something was seriously WRONG!

          “The Tea Party movement (TPM) is an American populist[1][2][3] political movement that is generally recognized as conservative and libertarian,[4][5] and has sponsored protests and supported political candidates since 2009.[6][7][8] It endorses reduced government spending,[9][10] opposition to taxation in varying degrees,[10] reduction of the national debt and federal budget deficit,[9] and adherence to an originalist interpretation of the United States Constitution.”

          2009!!!!!!! ~ is what I would call “SERIOUSLY” late to wake up and smell the coffee Buckwheat!

          And now , ~ I am suppose to listen to you????????????????????????????????

          As far as I can tell, many of your are part of the problem. Where was your voice in 2002? Where was your voice in 2004? In 1984?

          And now, ~ I’m suppose to be impress with your political acumen and insights? After you waving your little plastic flags and getting us into two needless AND unfunded wars? Your Christian zeal to seek retribution on any goat herder for the acts of a small few has made you the SUCKER’s of the highest caliber.

          You deserve the position you occupy today, out in the back 40. Rebuild your GOP! if you can, if you’ve got enough money to interest them. You all are little more then hyjackers, trying to hyjack hyjackers. Servers you right, I just hate the mess you’ve created and now we all must endure it with you. I fought you and passed administrations with everything at my disposal and I lost!

          All we have ever heard is bashing when your personal preference in administrations is out of power and having to cool their jets . It’s been so for the last 40 years, unrelenting.

          And now you are saying somehow this time, things are different?

          I am not a liberal, nor am I placing my bets on a “poor track record” , I can assure you of that ~ I just don’t agree with many of YOU! That does not make me a liberal while you seem to think so.

          I have heard this old snake oil pitch before, “Just trust me! Red, White & Blue, mamma and apple pie, Hallelujah, band of Glory!”

          You people are blaming OBAMA for the position the military is taking on this issue while this would be THE STANDARD military response regardless of who occupied the current 1st chair position.

          You attack any and everything that opposes the Tea Party and blame it on “liberals” or the current administration. I got news for you, until you change, things are not going to change. You people got the tail trying to wag the dog.

          Just how much more foolish can you people possible be? And you wish me to join your ranks and support your cause or you are going to call me a liberal?


          You are too late to the party! This fight has been going on for some time. Well before any 2009!

          While you attempt to relabel yourselves and be born again, free from all past transgressions and misplaced loyalty , this political war has rages on. While the wealthy laugh all the way to the bank and the middle classes pays the freight for the poor and rich alike.

          It is true, ~ this is not sustainable indefinably. You tune yourself down to a civil level and speak in rational tones, you might be more effective with your efforts. Many I happen to agree with.

        • recce1

          Alexm unfortunately many, if not most, liberal Democrats don’t believe in supporting and defending the Constitution as it was written and intended. Rather than using an exegesis approach to interpreting the Constitution, they use an eisegesis approach.

          Exegesis and eisegesis are two conflicting approaches in the study of a text, usually the Bible or the Constitution. Exegesis is the explanation of a text based on a careful, objective analysis. On the other hand, eisegesis is the process of interpreting a text in such a way that it introduces one’s own presuppositions, agendas, and/or biases into and onto the text so thus making it mean whatever one wants. This is what liberals mean by calling the Constitution a “living document.”

          Many liberal study the Constitution in universities in order to become experts on how to twist, get around, or misuse it. Both Obama and his chief czar, Cass Sunstein, have done just that. Thus they must punish as enemies of the state those who would defend the Constitution as it was written and amended.

      • Schillie Young

        your right.and any american that thinks thinks you can’t have or speak up for what you belive is right is no Amercan. in or out of the military!

      • Tasine

        I’m on the marine’s side. It takes a corrupt military to punish one of its own for publicly stating the obvious. Obama has no standing amongst half the population of America. A soldier swears to protect his nation and its Constitution. He sometimes has to do it with words. Are we trying to say that words are worse than bombs and bazookas? I’m not in favor of tying a soldiers’ hands and telling him to “protect your boss at any cost”. Most of us know Obama is a usurper, has no legal right to hold the office the Democrats put him into, and I don’t believe Presidential usurpers are due any (I said ANY) respect from any American military person – or any other American.

        He will get the boot because Obama will dictate it. He IS a dictator, you know.

        • John Wilch (TSgt, USAF Ret.)

          Tasine, I agree with you 100%. When you enlist in the military you take an oath to defend the CONSTITUTION from all enemies FOREIGN and DOMESTIC, this oath I feel is not to be take lightly. I and others like me believe oath is not taken just for your initial hitch be is to be followed for the rest of our lives. Oh, there our some that took that oath and when they finished they’re first hitch promply forgot what that oath means.


      • Patrice Lavin-Walker

        Thank you for suporting a young man, a Marine, who has fought for out Great US of A..he deserves an applaud for standing up for our Great Country…anybody who opposes his opinion and says he deserves to be punished apparently has not served for our Great United States…he clearly knew what he what was doing when he spoke out…as we all should against this fraud, fake of a Commander in Chief.. Barry Soetoro does not even deserve to be our President…he is Anti American, Anti Constitutional, Anti every thing that our great Country stands for…get rid of him this year!!!!

      • Patrice Lavin-Walker

        I adore this Marine!!! True meaning of courage….he did not disobey any direct order.. he may be on the line for a letter of reprimand…that’s it!!! If you know anything about being in the military ….that is all he should receive out of this.. he is a fine young man and a Proud MARINE that fights for our FREEDOM!

      • J Evans

        simian pete, one day you must tell us how you really feel! LOL! I wonder if people like Gary Stein will ever realize that just because you put yourself in harm’s way to protect our First Amendment rights, and watch your buddies next to you die for doing so, does not give you the right to exercise your First Amendment rights. May God Bless that young man, but dang, maybe the “better part of valor” would have been waiting until he no longer wore the uniform. I say: “God Bless him anyway.” These are extreme times we are living in, with an extreme President, and Mr. Stein obviously thought they called for extreme measures. BTW, who has a better right to exercise his First Amendment rights than somebody who put their lives on the line for that right?

    • Vigilant

      Interesting that Mr. Rolley’s “Associated Press” link above is to an msnbc website.

      At least Huffington Post was honest enough to report the ACLU’s position:

      “David Loy, of the American Civil Liberties Union in San Diego County, said he has not followed Stein’s case closely, but that based on what he has seen in the media he thinks there may be a legitimate concern on the part of the Corps about Stein appearing to be speaking as a member of the armed forces because of his Facebook page’s name.

      “The military has a very strong interest and appropriately so to remaining neutral,” he said. “The last thing we want is our military taking side on political issues.”

      When even the ACLU admits the legitimacy of the Marine Corps position, you know this is a slam dunk. Glorifying Stein, who clearly violated the UCMJ, is taking a position to the left of the ACLU

      This case is similar to the Terry Lakin case. Lakin served almost six months of prison time for refusing orders over his doubts about Barack Obama’s eligibility to be president, Stein can consider himself lucky to be merely discharged.

      • Vigilant

        BTW, adding the sentence, “Officers also are not allowed to use contemptuous words against senior officials, including the defense secretary or the President” is not relevant. Stein is not an officer.

      • Ralph Gregorio

        I was involved with the military for over 25 years. I myself believe the Sgt. is right but he walked a very grey line. He can not actively campaign for a politician and he can not run as a canidate. I don’t think he did either. That said, many officers (Generals in particular) actively say thier views on politics. A retired Officer is also prevented from doing so as they are in an inactive reserve status for life..yet they do run for office and nothing is said. I wish the Sgt. well and hope he beats this rap but with Obama in office, he will be made an example of.

      • Deerinwater

        It’s insolence and subornation Vigilant.

        And if a officer doesn’t have these privileged , an noncom surly doesn’t.

        There can be no argument made to defend this soldier action and activities.

        There simply isn’t one.

      • bwilly123

        Enlisted soldiers are required to follow the same rules as officers, and then some, so this order does apply to him. Further, as a service member it is a violation of the UCMJ to do anything that tarnishes the image of the armed forces, including speaking against a sitting President no matter what you think of their policies!!

      • Vigilant

        Deerinwater, you have no argument from me. We rarely find ourselves on the same side of the fence, but this time we agree.

        My comment taking issue with the “officer” comment was a subtle way of indicating that the media, and many if not most who never served, don’t know the difference between a commissioned officer and a noncommissioned officer.

      • CJ

        Officers are in a different position. They receive an appointment from the CinC. Non-com’s just ‘enlist.’

      • JeffH

        Vigilant, ACLU comment was “based on what he has seen in the media he thinks there may be a legitimate concern on the part of the Corps”.

        I think we both can agree that the media is not a very good place to start forming an opiion.

      • Jack Betz

        Vigilant you want to bring the ” left sided ‘ ACLU in the picture why not bring in the A C L J the right wing of the picture and the True picture.

      • Vigilant

        “Vigilant, ACLU comment was “based on what he has seen in the media he thinks there may be a legitimate concern on the part of the Corps”.

        I think we both can agree that the media is not a very good place to start forming an opinion.”

        Absolutely correct, Jeff. In fact, once the ACLU studies the circumstances, it wouldn’t surprise me if they would agree to represent the Marine.

      • Vigilant

        Jack Betz says, “Vigilant you want to bring the ” left sided ‘ ACLU in the picture why not bring in the A C L J the right wing of the picture and the True picture..

        Jack, I have a world of respect for ACLJ, but I’m not sure if they’ve rendered an opinion on the subject yet. I have nothing but disdain for the ACLU, but this is one of the very rare occasions where at least the initial opinion is correct.

        I’m guessing that they (ACLU) have represented military folks on occasions like this, and have found that their efforts were fruitless.

      • John Wilch (TSgt, USAF Ret.)

        Vigilant, you stated that Sgt. Stein is not an officer will, Sir, I beg to differ: he is an NCO (NON-Commissioned Officer). Officers are said to derive their authority from Congress where as NCO earn theirs. Oh, granted there are some officer that are due the respect that comes with their rank and the trust that they have earned, but there are some that are nothing but political officer: “ITS NOT WHO YOU KNOW, ITS WHO YOU B…!”

        Furthermore, Sgt. Stein did not disobey the UCMJ (Uniform Code of Military Justice) as so many of you think it was a DIRECTIVE sent down from the Puzzle Palace (Pentigon), where a majority of the Upper eschalon officers work (after they have been appointed by the sitting President) rubbing elbows with the Libs that infest DC.

    • Flashy

      Sgt Stein deserves one thing…a swift and clean Dishonorable Discharge and a notation in his file to never ever to be given security clearance. if he joins Balckwater or some other contracted merc force…it should be made very Sgt Stein or any of his ilk allowed dealing in US interests. . And yes, my opinion and stance is the same as when Bush/Cheney ran the show and there were objections in the military ranks for the War based on Lies.

      The military has rulers..and that is the civilian. They work for us. They take orders and exist only at our behest. To question civilian rule is to be kicked out. Period. End of sentence.

      This is the problem with this “all volunteer” professional military. The forces begin to perceive there is a difference, and the mindset becomes “we” versus “them”. That can easily move onto they think they know better how to govern or run an operation. They begin to scoff at elections and elected leadership. And that begets trouble.

      We should reinstate the draft. Two parts. the 18-21 year old may opt in for a civilian force akin to the old CCC (Civilian Conservation Corps) where they can work in inner cities, Indian Reservations, rural areas of poverty etc…and help our Nation that way, or they may opt for the military and play with toys. If they opt for the civilian portion, three year hitch. they opt for the military, two years. During which they get minimum wage plus some type of housing allowance. And they also have something like the VA student loan/grant program allowing them to further their education above the training received.

      This does two things. Gives the youth a chance to decide where and what the life career will be and give time to ‘get the oats out”, and maintains a strong civilian ideal in the military forces and prevents the “we” versus “them” mindset from being entrenched throughout the military and being a danger to us in the future..

      • http://liberty Tony

        To Flashy:
        You and i might be on the opposite side of the political spectrum on alot of issues, especially, economic but i 100% agree with you on this. Thanks!!
        P.S. Lee Watso, Obama was born in the U.S. too. Be in touch with reality not the paranoid fantasies of these birthers. Bye-Bye!!

      • CJ

        And if he did blindly follow an unlawful order, which became a disasterous event, you’d be the first to point the finger and ask why this experienced Sgt. followed, and didn’t question it.

      • securityman

        You people want soldiers that are no more than robots.You are IDIOTS!!!!! If you want that go somewhere that they are trained that way. I spent my time in Viet Nam and obeyed orders,but still put my opinion out there. Now we have a pres. that really couldn’t stand a real close scrutiny of his past,as it is supposed to be, or of his ideals for a country that he just wants to rule.Don’t be supprised when it comes down and our dictator starts giving orders.Then you will want the Sgt. and others like him to help you out of the mess.

      • Libertytrain

        CJ, from the kind of character or lack thereof that flashman portrays of himself on this site, he’d be the first and loudest and continuous poster attacking a soldier like that – but as inexperienced in the world as he has proven himself to be, he does know everything and more than all others (or at least he proclaims such with each post).

      • ranger5

        You are an idiot sir

      • Flashy

        “he does know everything and more than all others” <— liberty

        Liberty, you're finally recognizing reality. Some people would say I'm conceited…but such is impossible. Conceit is a fault and, as everyone knows, I'm perfect.

      • Libertytrain

        flash in your case if you have an IQ, you certainly don’t prove it with your comments. And you are kind of a sad amusement for those of us who have been here on this site for a while- ever demonstrating in full black and white why the left is so self-centered – so “me me me” like this comment I’m replying to – so full of yourself … Proof of that lovely old saying – A mind is a terrible thing to waste…. (and you have proven time and time again that you have wasted it)

      • Blue Devil

        Flashy — Just out of curiousity, in what out fit did YOU serve?

      • Flashy

        Blue…when i was in HS, one didn’t take their date to the Senior prom, they took them to the demonstration.

        As to if i was in the military, see below.

        What difference would that make in any event?

      • Brad

        Flashy I thought i would never agre with anything you have written, but you are dead on 100% correct in this subject.

      • Maryland Freestater

        Flashy, I don’t know you but I’m gonna take you to task on ONE thine you said – NO WAY should the draft be reintroduced. I remember when the draft was abandoned – I missed it by 2+ years, my older brother by months – and I’ll be DAMNED if I want to see it returned to.

        I volunteered and did 4 years in the navy, under Carter and Reagan, and couldn’t wait to get out. Carter was a douchebag to be under – the malaise – and when the Gipper got in, his philosophy was ‘we’re gonna make the Fleet better by making it WORSE! It was a Military that had no honor: wonder if it’s gained any since.

        Made me the only conservative I knew who despised Reagan.

        I believe anybody on this site who defends and sides even a little with Obama should go somewhere else like Hufflepuff or MSCrap and post . This ‘president’ is the absolute worst thing to happen to us, and regarding the sergeant, yeah, he’ll probably be made an example of, but he IS honorable sticking up for his right of free expression. And I’ll look down on the Corps a lot less if they don’t fruck with him.

        To support Obama is to support with the Enemy. Now prove me WRONG!

      • 4me2777

        When we agree to serve our country we do not agree to forfeit our constitutional rights for off duty activities that fall within the scope of the restrictions placed by the military, after perusing the regulations connected with political activities provided by another poster I cannot see how his actions were in violation of these regulations.

        It is a comfort to me in these time of trouble to know that the oath keepers will not follow orders that violate their oaths and will defend me and my family from all enemies both foreign and DOMESTIC and will not follow unlawful orders.

        Your position supports the ‘lost and late votes’ by the military whom you seem to believe give up all rights to input into political processes which so distinctly not only involve them, their families but their very lives by voting or voicing their personal opinions.

        You have taken the debate here all over the political map including gun ownership, I live in New Mexico, one would be wise to assume that everyone in NM carries, most of us do, We are are an extremely polite society in general, yes we face extreme danger brought with the unprotected boarders and drug cartels, we are not crazy for being prepared for the troubles that you have no idea are lurking just beyond tomorrows tomorrow. Do you and the others who support the socialist/communist agenda really believe that as useful idiots your support will protect you from the unfolding tyranny?

        Can it all be stopped in time? Are we the people who future generations will look at and wonder what were we thinking? How did we allow this to happen to our nation? Did we really want to forfeit our individual freedom and liberty? What were our motives for the actions of this generation? Will we be labeled the robin hood generation, taking from not the rich but those who would and did work and giving to those who refuse to work and spout ‘politically correct’ slime all over the internet. How dare we the people which includes our military have any opinion?

        You have the right to your opinion, I support that right, I have a right to my opinion, this Marine has a right to his opinion and I support that right as much as I support your right to yours, the difference is you want to take his right away and keep yours.

        Know this comrade, the oath keepers will not be defending the constitution and the citizens of this once great country alone.


      • Patrice Lavin-Walker

        Flashy…I hope you are drafted….immedietely…how dare you declare this young MAN…a Marine…who has served to protect the right to say what you are now saying…shame on you…do you fall within the age of what would be the “draft” do your children or grandchildren fall within that age group? You should be ashamed of yourself. The reason why there is no draft is due to so many brave young Americans who volunteer to protect your freedom of speech…again…shame shame shame on you!

        • Deerinwater

          “. The reason why there is no draft is due to so many brave young Americans who volunteer to protect your freedom of speech…again…shame shame shame on you!”

          It more like the economy got so bad and jobs so scarce by 2004 the armed service enticing and there was no need of the draft. But I admire your spirit and claim.

    • eddie47d

      Would SC be so frivolous in her daily comments if Stein wasn’t a Conservative. If he broke the rules by advocating the overthrow of a Conservative President. If he got deeply involved in Liberal politics? Is SC defending his right to take on a “Liberal” politician and would she protect his right to take on a Conservative President? Should soldiers obey all legitimate orders and remain neutral on political matters. Should military officials be allowed to use military equipment (computers) to trash the President or any commanding officer? Do they have the same rights as civilians in responsibility to this nation whether Liberal or Conservative? I would say whatever he does on his own time and own computer should be a matter of free speech. That may be a good fight. If he is sent to combat and refuses to fight for his fellow soldiers then that is a different matter. Then he would still have rights but the consequences could be severe. During the Vietnam War not all soldiers liked President Johnson or Nixon and they spoke out against both. Soldiers should not be considered second class citizens in the political arena and should be allowed to debate any issue.Yet I do understand they have to be more cautious in taking any side so it does not harm national security.

      • CJ

        SC gets advanced access. Notice they’re hours before anybody else.

      • Flashy

        CJ…i don’t believe such is true. The email is sent every morning same time to my box. Oftentimes i click on a subject and there are no comments as yet.

        It must be you’re ranking in the Server which sends the mass emails out and you are in the later bundles.

        I may have issues with Mr. Livingstone from time to time, but I do not believe he gives such ‘early warning’ privileges. Most of the time he plays fair. Right Mr. Livingstone ?

      • Libertytrain

        silly people, the emails go out but the articles are posted around midnight. So no one has to wait for the emails – the articles are there with or without emails.

      • JeffH

        CJ, I find it humorous that you would be concerned about “who” gets to post first? I’ve seen another liberal here raise the same question in the past, not just aboutsc, but several others…jealousy is unbecoming…DUH!…somebody is always going to post the first comment…that it is sc obviously bothers you.

      • Brad

        Ther you go Eddie, we can’t just be concerned Americans we have to be affiliated on one dumb ass party or another. You are hell bent on dividing this great nation.

      • Libertytrain

        jeff – ain’t that the truth – it’s the “me me me” mentality that so many of the left possess…
        good grief. My experience with website knowledge, little that it is, is that emails are sent at one time of the day i.e. I get mine at around 8 am ET. I’m guessing since PL is in central time, they are set to be sent around 7 am CT. Of course things don’t always work exactly right in the Internet world but they aren’t sent out in batches or someone would have to actually manually plan to send some out at different times. Silly people who look for a conspiracy where one doesn’t exist yet those that do exist they poo poo.

      • eddie47d

        How did you come to that lame conclusion Brad?

      • JeffH

        …lame conclusion?… DUH!

      • Bob Livingston

        Dear CJ,

        Each day’s new articles are scheduled to appear on the site at midnight central time and can be accessed by anyone then. We send an email to our 650,000 subscribers each morning at 7 a.m. Because of the volume of emails, where your name falls in the list and your ISP, you may get yours anytime between 7 a.m. and 8:30 a.m. We also post a number of new articles to the site during the course of the day that you may or may not see in the email. There are no “special privileges.”

        Best wishes,

    • tg sherman

      Maybe the President should set an example & stay away from politics! Obama is not an American & will not defend this country unless it will help him get re-elected!!!

      • eddie47d

        Now that is POLITICAL rubbish Sherman!

      • Nadzieja Batki

        Then my question is why does O want to be a President of a country he loathers?

      • Bellagram

        Nadzieja Batki, The President loves his country. He has said more than once that his story would only be possible in this great country – American Exceptionalism. As for this marine – I am not sure how a facebook page titled “Armed Forces Tea Party”, cannot be viewed as being representative of the Armed Forces – my gosh it is the name of his page. I think he took an oath to obey the command of the President of the United States, which is President Obama at this time. He has every right to state his opinion on the President or politics as long as it can not be viewed as coming from the Armed Forces. That is hard to make that case considering the name of his page.

    • K.Parsels

      This is why the current administratation places ex military on the watch list. Train them to fight and use weapons, then tell them they can’t have free speech, and discharge them, who’s side do you think they will be on when trouble come?

      • Flashy

        KParsels…where did you hear that? Jeesh ….

      • EDBONOZ

        Read the Homeland Security Threat Assessment that was published by Janet Napolitano in 2009. The original assessment included wordage that included returning deployed military as possible terrorist threats to domestic peace as a result of their training and combat experiences. That wording was removed after Napolitano was challenged by every major military organization.

      • JeffH

        EDBONOZ, exactly. I had not heard that the wording had been changed.
        Here is a link to the Napolitano/DHS report:
        (U//FOUO) Rightwing Extremism:
        Current Economic and Political
        Climate Fueling Resurgence in
        Radicalization and Recruitment

    • Nadzieja Batki

      We better Pray hard that the Sgt. is not made an example. If this has come to the forefront, it means there is a lot of dissension in the ranks. The social engineers will be keeping their weasly eyes on anyone who thinks contrary and ruining a lot of the military careers.

      • castaway

        You had better hope there is rampant disention in the military ranks, because there could be a revolution coming. Will you want them to obey orders then?

    • George

      The regulation pertains to service members in Uniform. They are trying to stretch it
      to cover Social Madia.
      Another example of the Militray Leaders appointed by Otavia tryoing to protect
      Most military people do not support the president’s islamic ways.

    • http://fronteirnet Patricia

      Are all of you people KIDDING me,,,our service members put their lives, their limbs, their families, their futures on the line for FREEDOM OF SPEACH,,they should NEVER have to bow to anyone for their opinion, NEVER,,,they are the one’s who fight for this freedom of speach,,,all of you are forgetting what this country is all about, go back to school. I am not in the military, I have no children in the services, I am a mother of 3..64yrs old, born in the USA,,nobody in this country deserves more respect than our soldiers, God Bless him and all the other’s,,,,people wake up…just wake up….

      • Nadzieja Batki

        Who are you responding to in your posting?

    • ladybug


      Go to this website and sign the petition to vet Obama and check into his eligibility to be president. The lame stream media never vetted him in 08 and neither did congress.

      • recce1

        While the issue of Mr. Obama’s eligibility is important, that’s not the issue being discussed in this particular forum.

        • John Wilch (TSgt, USAF Ret.)

          recce1, thanks for your service, I too served in the Military 30+ yrs) and am damn proud to have served.

          Now as to your comment to ladybug I agree with you 100%

    • auhunter

      As long as he did not represent himself as a member of the Corps or appear in uniform at any meetings, etc. he is free and clear. He is just a citizen expressing his views. He can not however disobey a direct order, however, he can file an objection to that order if he believes that it is in direct conflict with the Constitution, which he is sworn to uphold.

    • George Hijar

      In the military, regardless of how you feel about your leaders, you are bound by oath, and a contract, “to obey all orders from officers and Non-commissioned officers appointed over me.” To speak against the Commander-in-Chief, no matter who he is, is a stupid, dumb move. Besides, if you’re going to “speak your mind,” why not use an alias; I think Sgt. Stein was looking to get caught. I am a Vietnam Veteran and had plenty of “bad thoughts” about Presidents Johnson and Nixon about the ways they were conducting the war (some of my buddies died as a result of their warped policies), but that’s all they were — just thoughts. I wouldn’t have changed anything no matter what I said; besides, back in them days we didn’t have Facebook or Twitter. I spent 33 years of my life in the service to my beloved Country, and I am all for freedom of speech, but sometimes you have to engage your brain before you shoot your mouth off — you must have your head and ass wired together. Am just sayin…Semper Fi!

      • castaway

        You may feel differently if serving under this president

        • Deerinwater

          No ! you are being obstinate. Soldiers have no such luxury. If they did , they might as well be like you, a civilian .

          Why is that complicated for you?

    • http://Aol Bill

      Discharge him ? Hell decorate him with a new citation “Brass Balls with Cluster” and fire the president and the spindly A–ed Jar head officers who are ordering him out of the corps.

      • Deerinwater

        It’s a good thing you are not is charge of anything but your mouth and even that is debatable.

    • jim

      Reply to deerinwater. Actually it is time to stand up as a Marine since we are the ones with the balls to go looking for the fight. We Marines are Warriors that is why we are called into combat first. With shoving gay life styles, women in the front lines, the distrust of the Afghanistans that are being trained to take over security who shoot/blow up our own troops, and our w.h. administration tearing down our constitution every chance they get. it is time for all active duty and the tens of thousands of veterans to voice their opinions. Our leaders can not or their careers would be over.

  • Lawrence Kennedy

    It appears that the Sgt, did violate the rules for military personnel, with the comment he would refuse to follow unlawful orders from the President. This clearly indicates that he is speaking from a military man’s position. If he at ANYTIME stated he was in the military, he has violated the “policy” of military personnel not speaking for,or against any political party, os the Commander-in-Chief. His PERSONAL opinions as a civilian (cannot be known to be afilliated with the military) are acceptable, but once a military connection is made he is in violation of the UCMJ, and military policies.
    A side note: Senator Kerry should have been Court Martialed during the Viet Nam conflict for his public political stance (including the videoed throwing of his medals), and given a dishonorable discharge (then he couldn’t have been a Senator). Is it too late, do we accept public violations of the UCMJ when it is a well to do family, and prosicute those of ordinary means?

    • Vigilant

      Kerry was discharged in 1970. He was not active duty when he did that despicable act in 1971.

      • Flashy

        Remember the times Vig. It was early 70′s. And the country was split on the issue of the war. I do not see Kerry’s act at the tie to be ‘despicable”. Rash? yes. Despicable? no. It was a political statement which Kerry, as a civilian, had a Right to voice. While i did not serve, it was a close call. And yes, there was active debate at the dinner table as to what i wold do if drafted. the lottery number was low enough, I already had my “invitation’ for the physical. The draft ended 8 days before my 18th birthday was all that kept me from being drafted.

        Would i have gone if called? As i said…there was serious debate at the dinner table but the final answer was yes. And it was hoped my situation and the war winding down would somehow get me posted somewhere other than SE Asia.

        BTW…i still carry my draft card in my wallet. keeping my draft card was/is the law until the age of 45. I’m past that age now, but I keep it as a conversation piece of the “old days back when”

      • Vigilant

        Flashy, I was in the middle of basic training in 1966 when I got a letter from Uncle Sam telling me I was reclassified to 1-A! Nice to know I could be drafted AFTER I’d enlisted. I had to laugh (bitterly).

      • Flashy

        Vig…I have to ask…did they go after you for not getting leave so you could report ? LOL …

      • recce1

        Flashy, so you believe it was OK for Kerry to commit treason, defined by the Constitution as giving aid and comfort to the enemy, because of the times? By his own account, Kerry violated the UCMJ, the Geneva Conventions, and the US Code while serving as a Naval officer. He also violated Article 3, Section 3 of the Constitution. Kerry was a commissioned officer at the time of his 1970 meeting with NVA Communists in Paris, a violation of the UCMJ’s Article 104 part 904, and US Code 18 USC 953. It was for these reasons Kerry was given a less than honorable discharge, later upgraded to honorable by Pres. Carter due to Kerry’s family’s political connections and wealth.

        However, when a Marine says he won’t obey an unlawful order, a view held by many patriots, he should be court martialed and given a dishonorable discharge? By your standards Kerry should have been executed for treason. The only apparent violation by Sgt. Stein was that of using government computers to post his comments. It is serious if true, but not deserving of a dishonorable discharge.

        So if our Socialist leader ordered troops into the streets to shoot those at a peaceful Tea Party demonstration against him, would you say the troops had no right to disobey the order? If so, you need to review the UCMJ.

        Contrary to your apparent beliefs, those entering the military services don’t give up their constitutional rights. There are commonsense restrictions but no invalidation of the rights.

    • John Wilch (TSgt, USAF Ret.)

      Those medals that he throw over the wall were not his they belong to another Veteran (a real Hero) not some jerk that should not have been allowed to wear the uniform of this country. Oh, yeah, those so-called combat wounds that he received were all self-inflected.

      As, to the Sgt. when the Marines discharge him it shouldn’t be a dishonorable discharge because he didn’t do any thing that would warrent such a punishment.

      Oh, the article never said which computer the Sgt. was using. Was he using his own or one owned by the Government. If he was using his own thats his right but if he was using one owned by the Government he should be punished but not by a DD that is too harsh.

      As too, that ACLU (American Communist Lawyer Union) jerk, he probally never was in the Military and wouldn’t know the UCMJ from Black’s Law Dictionary.

      • http://AOL Ellen

        Nobody has more right to express an opinion than someone wearing the uniform of the United States Military. Those in the military put their lives on the line for us every hour of the day. What next? Should they not be allowed to vote? Every American has a right to his/her opinions. In the last election thousands of GI votes came in too late to be counted. Every American is entitloed to free speech –especially those who protect us.

  • ravenscalm

    The marine violated the rules. He was given opportunities to conform to the rules, but nitpicked about the semantics. His discharge will be the appropriate punishment, if only for ignoring the directives of his superiors.

    • Nadzieja Batki

      What rules did he violate? Who’s rules did he violate?
      Are you so naive to believe that we don’t have military personnel that are so rabid pro O, that they would not throw to the dogs anyone who is contrary in their thinking.
      The military has been infiltrated by social engineers.

      • Vigilant

        Sorry, Nadzieja, either pro- or con-Obama activities would result in the same pu8nishment.

        It has nothing to do with political sympathies, it has everything to do with violation of the UCMJ.

      • Nadzieja Batki

        It will have to be proved that he violated the UCMJ.
        It will have to be objective proof and not subjective due to some Officer feeling bitchy that day.

      • Vigilant


    • http://personallibertydigest gottaplenty

      You have it Carol… I was on a snow removal contract at Elmendorf A F base Anhcorage Ak in the early 1990s when a questioneer came to the troops asking if the potus asked them to use force , loaded weapons against the civillians , would they be willing to do it. Clinton I believe was the Jerk at that time. He asked the wrong people, they were mostly shocked he was that stupid.

  • jake48

    Like the Rules on Homosexuals these Chicken S— rules have to be abandoned by the Military. I understand not using a Goverment Computer. Or a server the Goverment has paid for. But we should not have to give up our first amendment rights. And follow blindly a man who circumnavigate the Constitution every time he has a WHIM……And there is no Doubt in my Millitary mind that this brother Marine is not alone in his feelings. We as Americans military men swear an oath to protect the country from all enemies foreign and domestic.and we should have faith and trust in our leaders…..

    • Flashy

      Jake…when you sign up for the military, you sign away a lot of Rights and privileges. You agree you are the property of the USofA. If we say ‘take the bullet’, you take the bullet. Plain and simple. In return, the social contract is supposed to be VA benefits, health care for life, and other allowances (including Vet preference points in government employment apps) when you return to civilian life.

      Sgt Stein decided he wanted out of that obligation. i wouldn’t recommend HR to hire him to be even a janitor given his disposition. he’s amply demonstrated he has no principles. As Vigilant stated ( i believe it was Vig), he’s lucky he doesn’t serve time. And yes, I stated the same when there were military personnel objecting to the Bush/Cheney regime.

      • Michael Hardy

        Flashy, What do you mean “the man has no principles”?? That’s what he’s being kicked out for – for speaking out on his principles! What do “principles” mean to you. “Sit down and shut up and do as you’re told” is that your idea of principles? The man took an oath to obey and defend the Constitution, all orders received are subordinated to that oath. I’m a vet and I remember taking the oath. Remember the Lt. Calley incident in Viet Nam. Obeying unlawful orders got men locked up for a long time. Sergeant Stein simply said he would NOT obey unlawful orders. That conviction is fully within the UCMJ.

      • Flashy

        has no principles. i meant what i said. He joined up. he knew the rules. but when he disagreed with what he perceived…note it is his perception and not that decided by the citizens…he threw away those principles which he agreed to when he joined. He switched allegiances.

        He has taken it upon himself to state he does not believe President Obama is legitimately holding office. there is no court supporting that contention. the majority of Americans voted Pres. Obama in as legitimate and will in all likelihood vote him in for another term. That is all the legitimacy anyone should require when they are placed under the command of the civilian rule spelled out in our Constitution.

        the Sgt. has an issue with our chosen political leaders? Fine..resign and enter the fray. Easy enough to do. But to remain in the military and cause dissension ? Give me a break. What happens when a Cpl disagrees with the Sgt. ? Are you trying to tell folks that the Sgt would not take offense and view assigning and ordering the duties of that Cpl differently?

        As i stated…i wouldn’t recommend to HR to hire him at any level. He is not to be trusted when the chips are down and men relying on his command have to stand in the line.

      • Thor

        “A dishonorable discharge (DD) can only be handed down to an enlisted member by a general court-martial. Dishonorable discharges are handed down for what the military considers the most reprehensible conduct. This type of discharge may be rendered only by conviction at a general court-martial for serious offenses (e.g., desertion, sexual assault, murder, etc.) that call for dishonorable discharge as part of the sentence.
        With this characterization of service, all veterans’ benefits are lost, regardless of any past honorable service. In many states a dishonorable discharge is deemed the equivalent of a felony conviction, with attendant loss of civil rights. Additionally, US federal law prohibits ownership of firearms by those who have been discharged under dishonorable conditions per the Gun Control Act of 1968.”

        “The Marines say Stein failed to follow Pentagon directives that say military personnel in uniform cannot sponsor a political club; participate in any TV or radio program or group discussion that advocates for or against a political party, candidate or cause; or speak at any event promoting a political movement.”

        ‘Pentagon Directives’ are not part of the UCMJ and therefore the violation falls under the purview of non-judicial punishment—not grounds for dismissal under ‘dishonorable’ conditions.

        As for refusing to follow unlawful orders, recruits are well-trained on what is and is not a ‘lawful’ order. In the end, whether something is lawful or not is determined by court martial—and, of course, the political climate has everything to do with the outcome if the court is pressured by the Commander and Chief. Don’t think a conservative could get a fair shake in this particular political climate, with ‘un-Constitutionalists’ in charge, do you?
        Flashy, do you really think a fellow should lose all his rights via felony conviction just because he doesn’t like your favorite President? Particularly when there is the alternative of ‘releasing him under less-than-honorable status—a general discharge for example. “General discharges are given to service members whose performance is satisfactory but is marked by a considerable departure in duty performance and conduct expected of military members.” (ibid)

        And you accuse ‘far-right-wing-religious wackos’ of over-reacting….

        Did you actually serve or just forget?

      • Flashy

        “Flashy, do you really think a fellow should lose all his rights via felony conviction just because he doesn’t like your favorite President?” <— Thor

        my answer is the same now as it was when there were military doing the same under Bush II/Cheney. Yes…dishonorable discharge. In all aspects.

        To me, there are two bastions in our Constitution which are unique and perhaps the most valuable to protect.

        One is the 2nd Amendment. I do not believe we have the Right to pack a gun because of fear of crime or want to carry armor for personal protection. just the fact someone wants to pack armor in a public place just because they can or fear being attacked to me, unless it is a combat type ghetto…that person should have their head examined and it's a good case to use to limit carrying firearms.

        Who in their right mind thinks it is a good thing to have strangers packing in a public place? And to allow such in a bar as in some states? Are they nuts? Even Dodge and Tombstone in their wildest days didn't think that was a good idea.

        No. To me the purpose and reason for the existence of the 2nd is plain and easily understood. To prevent a military coup or a coup by someone supported by the military. which is yet another reasn for a draft. Give everyone training on military ops. The 2nd is the "defense" of the Constitution.

        The other is the strict line of demarcation between military and civilian. There should not even be a debate on this issue. The military, and its members, serve under the civilian. Period. The only question the military should have when ordered to obey a civilian command (by 'civilian" i don't mean you or I) … is "what assets do i have available". that's it. There should be no "political question' for the soldier/sailor/airman to weigh out. They signed away the right and obligation to think when they agreed to join the military.

        There is an avenue for a military member to use if they have issues with our political civilian leadership. It's called "resign the commission" and enter the civilian world where they can exercise their Right as a civilian.

        When politics is allowed in the military, is that a good, sane, sound idea?

    • oregonrain

      I agree. We have no confidence in the man that holds the office to do what is best for this country. It is very hard not to speak our minds at all. BTW he changed the rule after he found out so many of us disapproved.

  • Ajfrench

    Forces are sworn in to protect the Constitution and this Marine carried out his orders. I have serious concerns about the officers.

    • Vigilant

      “Forces are sworn in to protect the Constitution and this Marine carried out his orders. I have serious concerns about the officers.”

      He violated the Uniform Code of Military Justice, period. How can we expect the public to respect the rule of law (Constitution) if the military does not? If he had carried out his orders, he would not be facing discharge.

      • BFreed

        Vigilant —- actually the SGT is protecting this country by protecting the Constitution against enemies foreign and domestic. We have a so-called Commander-in-Chief, who has over and over stated that the Constitution keeps getting in his way. As I see it, Obama is the biggest domestic threat to this country. The SGT didn’t say he would not follow a ‘lawfu’ or just an ‘unlawful’ order. The consequences of following and ‘unlawful’ order will and usually do have greater adverse impact on the individual who followed it as opposed to the individual giving the order. What is sad in this case the ACLU should be helping the SGT, but since he is a conservative, they make excuses of not helping him. The reason the American Military is so good is they have the capability of thinking for themselves. The American Military has never lost a war, just the politicians. Since you stated he shouldn’t be allowed to basically work, we as taxpayers should pay for his welfare, his medical and make him a ward of the state(country).

      • Flashy

        Brad…who decides if an order is “unlawful’ when issued by the CinC ?

      • Vigilant

        BFreed says. ” Since you stated he shouldn’t be allowed to basically work, we as taxpayers should pay for his welfare, his medical and make him a ward of the state(country).”

        Where did I say he wouldn’t be allowed to work? Being discharged does not make one ineligible for the work force.

        Please don’t put words in my mouth.

      • castaway

        There is a time and place for everything, and when you have a rogue president like we now have, with an agenda of re-inventing America, and throwing the Constitution, and THe Bill of Rights in the trash, now IS the time for disention in the military. WE have serious problems.

      • recce1

        Flashy, the UCMJ dictates whether or not and when a soldier can disobey an order given by the president or any other superior officer. If an order is disobeyed then it goes to a court to decide first if the order was lawful. Without that your position is that we should all be “good Germans.”

  • Lee Watso

    He should run for Congress or Senate we need smart people like him in office.And another plus he was born in America.

  • Susan

    Ironic that a sitting Senator was allowed to protest at the Capitol and throw his medals received during his service on a boat during the Vietnam War but this Sgt. isn’t allowed to voice an opinion. Look how far the military has come! Traitor Kerry is still in one of our highest offices in the land.

    • ravenscalm

      How does fighting for his/our country, even in an ill advised war, make Kerry a traitor?

    • eddie47d

      Protesting against any false flag war is a nobel mission. Once in combat the protests should stop and you have a duty to complete your mission. Outside a combat zone your free speech should be protected and your grievances aired. Senator Kerry and Sgt Stein both had doubts about either the war,policies and the Presidents at the time and were following their consciences. There are slippery slope issues involved although it should be the right to air complaints about serious Constitutional questions and legitimacy of wars.

    • Vigilant

      Susan says, “Ironic that a sitting Senator was allowed to protest at the Capitol and throw his medals received during his service on a boat during the Vietnam War but this Sgt. isn’t allowed to voice an opinion. Look how far the military has come! Traitor Kerry is still in one of our highest offices in the land.”

      Apples and oranges.

      (1) Kerry was not a sitting senator when he threw his ribbons (not medals).

      (2) Kerry was not active duty military in 1971, he was discharged in 1970.

      (3) Chucking his ribbons as a veteran is his right (unless they want to prosecute him under anti-littering ordinances)..

      (4) Stein’s failure to obey lawful orders is punishable under the UCMJ

      • recce1

        Vigilant, Lt. Kerry was a commissioned Naval Reserve officer at the time of his 1970 meeting with NVA Communists in Paris, a direct violation of the UCMJ’s Article 104 part 904, and US Code 18 USC 953. It constituted treason as defined in the Constitution’s Article 3, Section 3, which defines treason as “giving aid and comfort” to the enemy in time of warfare.

        Throwing his medals over the White House fence was within his Constitutional rights. Negotiating with the enemy without government permission wasn’t.

        By the way, Pelosi’s trip to Syria in 1970 was a violation of the logan Act and also would have been treason had we been at war with Syria. Also, there were 2 Republicans with her as I recall.

        • John Wilch (TSgt, USAF Ret.)

          Recce1, fyi, those medals that Kerry threw over the wall were not even his, they belonged to a real hero.

          • recce1

            You’re quite correct. But whether or not they were his it was his right to throw them over the fence, at least as long as he wasn’t acting like another anti-war protester who won the right to burn the American flag in which the MSM failed to report a minor fact, that the protestor stole the flag from a merchant flying it. I guess if one steals as part of a leftist protest it’s free speech.

            My point is that the MSM has consistently failed to point out the real reason Kerry got in trouble with the military. He committed treason by conferring with the enemy and then submitting their demands to Congress while a military officer and without government permission. He received a less than honorable discharge that was later upgraded by Carter. Kerry has refused to produce or allow the airing of his original DD-214 discharge papers. I wonder if Obama got the idea of not releasing such pertinent papers from him.

            Here’s another interesting fact about John FORBES Kerry. Have you ever wondered where his family’s wealth came from besides that of his wife, a Heinz? John FORBES Kerry’s great great uncle was John Murray Forbes. It was Forbes who smuggled opiun from India to China in the 1800′s and who when the Chinese government banned it’s importation got the British government to declare war on China to force its acceptance and distribution to the Chinese people. That’s how the Forbes family fortune started. Many forget the origins of the Opium Wars and the reason for China’s hostility towards the West.

            USAF, Retired

      • Vigilant

        recce1, I wasn’t aware of that. My mistake, I stand corrected.

        Kerry’s even more of a dirtbag than I imagined.

        • recce1

          Here’s some other interesting facts about John FORBES Kerry. Remember how the Left castigated Bush for getting out of the service early to work for a political candidate? Well, Kerry did the same in order to run for political office in MA.

          In addition, while as assistant district attorney, due to Kerry’s actions a convicted pedophile was released from prison and later kidnapped and sexually assaulted a young boy. As Lt. Governor, Kerry was also a supporter of Willie Horton’s parole.

          Kerry went to Vietnam but not voluntarily. He did volunteer for the swift boats because he got a command position and they were deployed off the coast in a safe area, but that changed to inland waterways. In addition, there’re serious questions to his 3 Purple Hearts. As for the Forbes family wealth, it was gained thru John Murray Forbes who smuggled opium from India to China and got the British to go to war with China after it refused to allow the importation of opium.

        • Deerinwater

          a civilian is not a solider, they live in two different worlds.

      • recce1

        Deerinwater, when Lt. Kerry went to Paris to collaborate without permission with the N. Vietnamese he was not a civilian but rather a commissioned Naval officer. Because of his actions he was given a less than honorable discharge, upgraded by Pres. Carter

    • John Wilch (TSgt, USAF Ret.)

      Those medals were not his they belonged to someone else (a real hero)!

    • Maryland Freestater

      It’s surprising no one here has mentioned Major Jihad down in Texas. SOB like him gets treated with kid gloves and yet the military is gonna stroke the Sergeant for his actions?
      Only in Obamastan…

      • castaway

        Only in modern, politically correct, muslim favoring America.

      • Deerinwater

        Two separate matters, and I hope he’s not getting kid glove treatment. I kind of doubt it.

  • KG

    Anybody who feels that we need to “Get back” to the Constitution has certainly never read the Constitution. iF YOU REDNECK RETARDS WOULD ACTUALLY READ THE THING!!

    According to the Constitution, guess who is the commander of “the militia”? THE PRESIDENT!!!! Yea. The very person you HATE is your leader according to the Constitution. So, stop all of your whining and do the most patriotic thing any american can do, besides voting. PAY YOUR TAXES!

    • Ralph Gregorio

      Where in the Constitution does it staate that the President is Commander of the Militia?
      He is Commander in Chief of the Army, Navy, Marines and Air Force, The Govenor of a state is the Commander in chief of the National Guard. Militias are niether. A militia is non-serving citizens who come together to fight for thier country.

      • Steve E

        Ralph, you are right about that.

      • castaway

        We are at a time in our History, when we really need that militia, and of course the military is welcome to join us. Steal what ever weapons and ammo you can before you leave and join us. Planes, tanks, artillary, whatever works well.

    • Nadzieja Batki

      Apparently you have not read the Constitution.
      No where does it say that we are to “love” the President. Better start defining what “hate, etc.,” the words you Leftists use and don’t know what they mean.

      • KG

        Section. 2.

        The President shall be Commander in Chief of the Army and Navy of the United States, and of the Militia of the several States, when called into the actual Service of the United States; he may require the Opinion, in writing, of the principal Officer in each of the executive Departments, upon any Subject relating to the Duties of their respective Offices, and he shall have Power to grant Reprieves and Pardons for Offences against the United States, except in Cases of Impeachment.

    • Brad

      KG put down the crack pipe

    • BFreed

      Militia’s are controlled by the Governor of the state have them. Yes, there are states that have valid militia’s. In Ohio they have 2 unpaid militia’s. The Ohio Military Reserve(OHMR) and a Navy Militia that patrols Lake Erie. They have a BG that is directly under the National Guard commanding officer, normally a Major General.

    • Maryland Freestater

      Bloody trolling IDIOT! This jackass of a ‘president’ gets elected out of nowhere, does the most damage to our nation this side of Woody Wilson, AND YOU WANT US TO LOVE HIM??!!

      KG, what’s your REAL name – KGB??

      I am SICK AND TIRED of people, specifically leftists, thinking they have the Satan-given right to mandate my behavior. If’ the devil is in the details’, then the entire ranks of Hell must be behind our current administration with their slavish desire to regulate every aspect of our lives.

      At least rightwing religionists have the sense to stay out of my business as to how I choose to live my life, despite the left always whining about ‘bedroom politics’. And something else here – it never occurred to lefties that some followers of Christ may actually LOVE all Mankind and resisting what they see as damaging behavior in an attempt to make the aberrant ones redeem themselves before Brother Man or God?

      Just wonder how much longer websites like this will be allowed to exist before Oscumbag makes it illegal?

      • castaway

        Good post and your last statement is the scary reality of today. Our freedom of speach is being chipped away daily. Its time for all of us to take a stand and fight. The media is against the country, as is this administation. So do we make a stand, or watch as it all disappears before our eyes?

      • Deerinwater

        “I am SICK AND TIRED of people, specifically leftists, thinking they have the Satan-given right to mandate my behavior.”

        We have the right by God and man to try to prevent you form hurting yourself and others.

        Maybe you need to kool your Jets before your behavior raises alarm and call for concern?

        Or continue as you are and be confronted for your behavior.

        You are not in control of anything, not even your mouth obviously.

        Your social behavior is mandated, you will comply, I tell you this because you question it.

        Consider it a friendly public service message addressed to all that question.

        My social behavior is mandated, there can be no one immune.

  • Cat

    Whats astounding to me is that the Marines will discharge an American who loves his country and has the courage to say so publicly, but the Army would do NOTHING about Nidal Hassan who was hell-bent on killing Americans in the name of Islam. In fact the Army went out of its way to protect Hassan in the name of diversity. It’s a disgrace!

    • Flashy

      If he ‘loves his country”, he wouldn’t be facing a dishonorable discharge would he. Did you state the same when there were military people who voiced opposition to Bush/Cheney or Bush I or Reagan and were jailed or booted?

      Think about that. you propose the military be allowed to take sides in politics.

      • Thor

        Would your pie-hole be open if we were talking about an occurrence during Bush/Cheney?

      • Thor

        I don’t see anyone advocating allowing the military to take political sides. The subject at hand is your over-reaction.

      • Flashy

        Thor…yes and i did.

        As to the “overreaction”…he entered the world of politics. There is a strict and clear line against that. If a politicized military is your idea of a good thing, we definitely have serious differences in protecting this nation.

      • castaway

        You make a good point, however if there was ever a time for the military to take sides, now is it.

      • John Wilch (TSgt, USAF Ret.)

        Flashy, Flashy, nowhere in the article did I read that he ever enter into politics. All I read about is that he wrote about his feelings on a web site that he started. Also, when he was told that he was doing so against the UCMJ (Uniform Code of Military Justice) he took the site down and after he did his research and found out that nowhere in the Code was he in the wrong he put the site back up.

        The only thing I got out of the article was that the so-called policy came down from the Puzzle Palace, the place where all the Political Officer (some) sit in judgement and hand out policies, some of which have gotten people killed. You want to know a few here goes: Don’t shoot until you are shot at (Vietnam): this means if you are out patroling and your patrol starts receiving fire and you are not the one being shot at at the moment you are not to open fire; You are not to shoot if you are receiving fire from a Moslem house of worship; or even better everytime you capture one of those so-called enemy combatants you are to Merrandize them (“You have the right to be quiet and anything you say can and will be use against you in a court of law and so-forth”).

        Bulls—, I would be in trouble because if me and my boys (I was a Section Sergeant) were being shot at and I realized where the shots were coming from and I had a tank with me I’d tell the tank where to park and that would be on the other side of the building (don’t go around).

        • recce1

          To go one further, the only accusation Sgt. Stein might be guilty of is using a government computer to post his comments. If guilty it would warrant a written reprimand or at worst an Article 15, hardly a general court martial and dishonorable discharge as some propose.

          But the truth is that some want to go along with Mr. Obama’s agenda of intimidating American citizens into silence while he willfully violates the Constitution. Obama wants to impose federal control over the states where both Article 1, Section 8 and the 10th Amendment forbid it. Most of Obama’s supporters, even some former military people such as Deerinwater, don’t understand or want to understand that those who defend this country don’t take an oath of fealty to a president but rather promised to support and defend the Constitution. That means disobeying any illegal orders even if given directly by a president even in the midst of a declared war.

          Those who serve accept certain restriction on their constitutional rights but don’t give them up. That means we can’t be “good Germans” and just say we were obeying orders if those orders were illegal.

          By the way, I remember an aircraft commander of mine who told me about Johnson’s micromanaging of the Vietnam War. A certain bridge in N. Vietnam was being bombed and then repaired but down the road was a munitions factory that was off limits. A friend of his was lost going after the bridge. So an F-4 driver lined up on the length of the bridge and “missed.” By “mistake” the munitions factory went up in a spectacular show of fireworks. The pilot was verbally reprimanded about his “poor” bombing skills but not disciplined.

          USAF, Retired

          • Deerinwater

            “Deerinwater, don’t understand or want to understand that those who defend this country don’t take an oath of fealty to a president but rather promised to support and defend the Constitution. ”

            Oh! I took this oath myself and I understand it. I just don’t accept the gravity of your charge against 44′s administration.

            If you somehow believe that every and all commissioned and non commissioned officers and soldiers has the ability and sworn duty to interpret and enforce Constructional law, our armed forces would not be worth spit!

            Your whole argument is predicated on an unsubstantiated and yet to be proven belief that the Constitution has been violated by a sitting President. While in fact, 44 has conducted affairs in much the same as his predecessors as they wield power from the oval office. Lincoln is the first that comes to mind without thinking very hard. While there too, his power was challenged and that challenged was answered that pitted brother against brother and some of the bloodiest wars know to modern history record this event.

            43′s “patriot act” far exceeds the limits of government afforded by the Constitution as it abridged every citizens personal liberties. Yet is exist today and was indeed embraced as still necessary by the current administration much to many of us disappointment.

            My thoughts on this would be, the current administration still see a strong need for the “PATRIOT ACT”. I will not second guess the Command & Chief on the matter as he was the one “ELECTED” to lead and has privilege to information on a daily bases that simply I do not have to make such an assessment.

            Now since you didn’t elect Obama, feel free to second guess him all you want to, but you are not getting any traction with me and people like myself.

            This solider has jumped in way over his head, if you want to throw him a life line, be my guest.

    • http://AOL Ellen


  • Bill Scantlen

    Being an old marine, I agree thoroughly with the sergeant.
    Now he won’t have to worry about winning the hearts and minds of the islamists who have experienced nothing but hate and war for 200 years.
    Way to go Sarg.
    Semper Fi

    • Ralph Gregorio

      Bill, I agree with you and at the most, the punishment should be maybe an Article 15. He stated what he believes in and did not commit a criminal act.

      • Nadzieja Batki

        There should not be any punishment.
        Do not allow for any precedents to be set that will put fear and discouragement into any other Soldiers and Marines.

  • Deerinwater

    Soldiers were never permitted “personal opinions” when I served either.

    It’s good to hear things hasn’t changed. A personal opinion is baggage for a soldier. Look what happen in Afghanistan last week with a soldier acting on personal opinion.

    Soldiering is a simple life, you do what you are told.

    Any question? There better not be if you wear the uniform and take up arms.

    The Tea Party and Tea party activities has no place in military life.

    It’s tolerated in civilian life.

    • eddie47d

      Excellent point Deerinwater on Sgt Bales. There can and should be repercussions to taking the law into your own hands whether in the military or in civilian life. Sgt Bales actions set the war back by many months if not years and put his fellow soldiers in danger. Sgt Stein has to be careful about disobeying orders also and we don’t have the full story on him. He certainly should have the right to speak up on his own time though.

      • Steve E

        You mean disobeying “Unlawful Orders”. That’s what the Sgt. said. In which case one can disobey those orders without punitive action.

      • Flashy

        Steve..who decides or decided which orders were “unlawful” ?

      • Steve E

        The lawyers will decide what is lawful. I if he was ordered to rob a bank or some other criminal act, that would be an Unlawful Order. All the laws are on the books.

      • Flashy

        I do not believe the Sgt. stated he would wait for any order to be taken to court and wait for appeals to run. I believe he was of the mindset he alone would decide if an order was ‘unlawful’ or not.

      • recce1

        Flashy, military personnel take a pledge to protect and defend the Constitution against all enemies both foreign and domestic. The UCMJ states that a soldier must not obey an unlawful order, one that would be apparent to to someone of average intelligence.

        What you’re claiming is that a soldier must first obey an order and then appeal its legality. You’re wrong.

        • Deerinwater

          Well ~ if it’s the Constitution this man is attempting to defend, He needs a good attorney. But he is out of the soldiering business.

    • Nadzieja Batki

      Are you allowing that Soldiers and Marines are still allowed to vote?
      But according to your way of reasoning they should no longer be allowed to vote if they vote contrary.
      Maybe they should have one person doing the voting for all since they must all think alike.

      • castaway

        I’m curious and that is all this is. What country are you from or were you or your parents from? You have some interesting comments in your posts. Please continue.

    • Doug

      Just like we have to read your opinions why don’t you mossey over to the Huffington Post with the rest of your like and go pound sand, Turdinwater!

  • Don Sanborn

    It goest to show we need to get rid of everyone In charge. They are takeing are rights away. He whants to be king he should be shot for treeson. Ever thing he has done has scewed us all.

  • jay Lindberg

    Military personnel should be allowed to vote, speak and post political opinions wherever they like. They are citizens, period and should be allowed the same rights as anyone else, period.

    Having had some experience with the ACLU and their agendas, I can tell you from experience that they are far from the the left wing bastions of civil rights. What they really are is a political machine for hire, but they call them contributions. Let’s not also remember they are also lawyers.

    They also recognize all too well that access to the courts has its price. Right or wrong, 90% of the time, you support the government. It’s business.

    Their main contributors are lawyers (their right to steal from us), main stream media (their right to lie to us) and gays (wealthy). While I agree with gay rights, I’m not gay so they aren’t interested in talking to me.

    If you wanted to describe the ACLU as a person, she would be an elitist lesbian lawyer with media clients and a closet drug addict.

    If you are in the military, donating to the ACLU would be like buying them the rope to hang you.

    • Flashy

      Jay…let me ask you. What is the usual profile of a country that allows the military to take sides in politics ?

      you really want that ?

      When you sign up for the military, you voluntarily give up your civilian rights and become property of the USofA and subservient to civilian rule. There is a reason for that. Think about it.

      • Thor

        Agreed, Flashy, but this is not a court-martial/dishonorable issue. It is a non-judicial issue that should be followed up with “General Discharge.” You are sounding like the ‘religious right-wingers’ you so detest.

      • Flashy

        Thor…in my view, this is one of the rare instances i hold a “black and white’ viewpoint. to me, a military person becoming actively engaged in he political arena is a court martial offense and deserving of the harshest punishment via dishonorable discharge.


    • Deerinwater

      “They are citizens, period and should be allowed the same rights as anyone else, period.”

      I take it, that you have not served? I don’t believe even the Air Force would agree with you.

      • Vigilant

        Bob, I remember seeing a GI wearing a jacket in the Base Exchange at Castle AFB one day in the 80s. It had an embroidered map of Korea on the back, with the words, “Osan AB, Korea — If you haven’t been there, shut the f**k up.”

        I might add that my advice to those who haven’t served in the Armed Forces would be close to that statement.

        My experience has been that those who never served have no clue as to the necessity for order and discipline in the service. Even a number of Libertarians have the misbegotten idea that the military should be established as a open society. You know and I know that such an arrangement would have destroyed the military (and almost did until proper steps were taken) during our earliest war, the Revolution.

      • Deerinwater

        100% in agreement, ~ one must live it, ~ walk in those GI boots. And only then might one begin to understand the mind of a solider.

        Then too, not every GI that serves has been torn down and rebuilt back in solid military fashion like a lot of us were. Leaned to Enjoy the advantages offered by institutional life. Know your place and know your job, never permit the mind to wander off. You stay locked in with leadership, that part of the job.

        I make it into Saigon to pickup up a shipment that had been flown in and spent a few days with some Air-force GI. I never heard all the bitching and complaining in my life. These men were living in paradise compared to our base camp much less 5 or 6 days in the bush.

        They could order hamburgers, fries and cokes anytime they wanted them, they pulled shift work, dry bunks, hot meals , electric fans, girls! round eye and slant! hooch mama’s, beer!

        I was in country 3 months before I got my first hot shower. Being German Irish, I was proud of my tanning dark skin, first time even, but it washed off and I was just a white boy again.

        The dry was dry and the wet was wet, big deal ~ so what? You accept your position and move on.

        I don’t know if everyone did this, but we started protecting our short timers when they hit 45 days to be shipped out. It was an unspoken understanding fellow soldiers shared. It made those last 45 days a little celebration for each ones return to the “world”. It was a way of honoring each other and long last farewell without saying a word about it.

      • recce1

        Vigilant, I served in Kunsan, S. Korea, far worse and more isolated than Osan. Still, I enjoyed my tour there. To respectful Americans the Korean people were quite kind. It’s also a beautiful country.

    • Michael Hardy

      Jay, you are so right. The organization was formed by communists (fact, not opinion – check it out). Their sole purpose is to pervert every part of the Constitution they touch so as to weaken its original intent, undermine our true liberty and as a result, weaken America. No one who loves America, the Constitution and our founding principles should ever give a dime to the ACLU.

      • eddie47d

        Free Speech and Civil Rights are fought for on many fronts and the ACLU will stand up for your rights. Too many people attack the ACLU because those same people want to stop others from having any rights. That has been proven throughout American history where certain folks were second class citizens and in some cases still are. That hardly makes the ACLU a nemesis. All men are created equal with liberty and justice for all. No exceptions! I’m fully aware that the pendulum can swing back and forth where one side may edge out another and those issues need to be corrected if they happen. Maintaining the goal of Life Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness should be of utmost importance for all.

  • B.Holmes

    It would be hard to be a serviceman who is expected to give your life, but with your mouth shut. It is hard to have a supposed prez whose mouth is constantly open, spewing lies, while merely wanting a life of luxury. Compare that to a Marine.

    • Deerinwater

      You tell us when being a solider was ever easy B. Homes?

      These “opinions” that you entertain makes you unfit for arm service and a misinformed voter that openly speaks treasonous accusation.

      • Ted Crawford

        ” Openly speaks treasonous accusation”? Funny, when similar comments were made about Bush ’43′, Pelosi Clinton, ETAL declared they were the most patriotic thing one might do!

      • Deerinwater

        We discussing the actions of one soldier here Ted Crawford. Not the universe.

  • KG

    We have a professional military. They should act like professionals. If you want to end Homosexuality in the military, then lets have a Draft. Let’s all Americans a chance to serve, not just the poor.

    Let’s see who the real patriots are.

    • Deerinwater

      I think that we should, ~ ! Every one should be required to serve.

      • recce1

        I can’t argue with that. Do you remember the sci fi film Starship Troopers? In order to be considered a citizen with the attendant rights one had to have served.

        It concerns me that now so few of our representatives and senators have served. Perhaps if more had they’d appreciate the delicate balance between rights and responsibilities in the military.

    • Libertytrain

      it’s not just the poor who serve. There are those who serve because they actually desire to serve their Country. There are prominent folks out there that have children that serve. Probably not as many as there could be because they follow in their parents footprints of frequent greed and selfishness. Sarah Palin has a boy who served or is serving; John McCain, Supreme Court Justice Scalia as well. I don’t think they are poor, perhaps these children were motivated by a sense of pride. And those that are poor frequently do it to change their lives and feel an honor or duty to serve their Country. Not all, but many. At least that’s been my experience with many soldiers I have met, or admired. We are neither poor nor wealthy and my daughter chose that life and I honor her for her decision.

    • former walmart person

      My father, who used to serve in the Air Force, told me this funny joke which I think has a good hidden truth to it. Here it goes:

      An Army general, Air Force General, and a Navy Admiral are sitting around a table for some afternoon tea in Iraq, reminising on their war glory days. Suddenly, the Air Force General chimes in “I bet my service has by far the bravest soldiers!!!” Before I tell you why, you guys go first and prove to me that your soldiers are the bravest if you think the Airforce doesn’t have the bravest. The Army general and Navy Admiral laugh non stop for minutes. “Come on, Bill (Air force General), you know the airfrorce is a bunch of sissies compared to the other services!!! The Army General then goes, “here watch this! Lets just display our courage rather than arguing semantics. “PRIVATE!!!! Get your rear here now!!!.. YES SIR! “Go attack that approaching enemy tank by yourself and report back to me when it is destroyed!! Aye General! The private comes back, and displaying incredible bravery, dodges 120 mm cannon fire and machine gun fire and single handedly destroyes the tank. “Wow!!!!” incredible!! “But you haven’t seen ANYTHING yet”, the Navy Admiral chimes in. “SEAMAN!!! HERE ON THE DOUBLE!!!!”. The seaman approaches, snaps to attention, and yells, Here as ordered Admiral Sir!!!!” The Admiral says, “go don that near by SEAL team gear, sneak up on that huge enemy cruiser, and single handedly sink that thing!!! “AYE ADMIRAL!!! To everyone’s amazement, some 30 minutes later, the cruiser alarms all go off and the ship starts sinking. The 2 flag officers than stare glaringly at the Airforce general, who is smiling happily. Finally, he chimes in, ok, fellows are you ready for the ULTIMATE SHOW OF BRAVERY!!! Well wait no more.. AIRMAN!!!! HERE ON THE DOUBLE NOW!!!! The airman stops for a moment, lifts up his middle finger and yells, “$#^#$^ you general I am on break!!!

      Smiling widly, the Air Force General says, now if that doesn’t show RAW GUTS I don’t know what does.

      A real hero soldier goes to fort leven worth for the rest of his years for disobeying a tyrannical order rather than dying quickly for the mega military industrial complex operations in the middle east.

      • recce1

        Deerinwater, OUCH, but humorous.

  • Karolyn

    It would seem that if all soldiers had the right to voice their political opinions and act on them, it could lead to chaos. Just picture soldiers saying “My political views don’t agree with those orders, so I’m not going to follow them.”

    • Thor

      You might want to throw in the chaos of gay guys showering with straight guys, etc., etc.

      • Deerinwater

        Leadership of the Continental Army was Gay, ~ you silly savage!

        Don’t try to use Fairy Fear to make your argument, everyone is not Homophobic.

    • Vigilant

      Karolyn, it did happen. Remember Terry Lakin? He spent 6 months in Leavenworth for his actions. And he deserved it.

      • Doug

        You are just so full of it! You want them to follow orders and rules and laws yet the commander and crap breaks rules and laws left and right! If you want those to follow then you lead if not then get the hell out of the way and if you would have been in my command you would have dropped faster than Obamanation opens his mouth to lie every word!

      • Vigilant

        I would never have been under your command because you would never have been deemed fit to assume a command.

        Commanders are cognizant of military order and discipline at all times, regardless of their political preferences.

    • former walmart person

      Karolyn, but if we always agree with government, history indicates that millions end up dying. Afterall, everyone “loved” Hitler now didn’t they. Not loving Hitler in 1930s-1940s Germany, is akin to selling raw milk across state lines in AMERIKKKA now.

  • J Daniel

    To Deerinwater: or is it deer in the head lights; learn to spell, use correct punctuation and the use on double negatives is not correct… Service man or not we all have the freedom of speech by virtue of the US Constitution… a proud vet ’71 – ’79… Good for your Sargent GS…!!!

    • Deerinwater

      What are you? the GD spelling Police around here?

      And It was all but over by 71,

      • J Daniel

        To Deerinheadlights… as a matter of fact, sure I’ll take that distinction ‘cept for the “GD” part; think you’ve got that one down… and praytell “what was all but over by ’71…??? It’s never over; we are and have always been in everyone’s business for years dude…Great for the economy go blow up some stuff and kill a bunch of people…
        Get a life… sounds like you’re angry… it’s your constitutional right to be such… have a good day…:)

      • Deerinwater

        Mental Light weights, that don’t have a grip on the issue and can’t mount an attack the message attack spelling and grammar!

        Most of us here understand it’s for what it is, ~ you are unprepared to discuss the issues.

        Well are not publishing here, get a life.

        You may be excused now.

      • Viet Vet

        I bet Deer is a Democrat, he uses the jargon of a demo.

      • Ted Crawford

        Far worse Viet Vet! He’s a Progressive! A 100% deciple of the Cloward-Piven method, useing Alinskys tactical manual in pursuit of his far left Utopia!

      • Deerinwater

        I don’t know anything about an utopia, something from children s books , maybe you can fill me in on that.

        And though I voted for Nixon and Reagan, I’m damn sure not a brain dead Republican or Democrat.

        I joined, did what I was told, fought and bleed next to men just like myself. I carry three bronze stars on my DD1014 , I pay taxes, I create jobs, I spread the wealth, I care for the young and aged.

        and you spell useing , by dropping the “e” and adding “ing” so now I’m joining the ranks of the spelling police.

        And as far as I’m concerned, if you haven’t served your country, or supported those who have in a very real way, you voice is null on this topic.

  • carpkiller

    I think that we should be taking care of the Ft. Hood killer before running recent activities to the front of our agenda.

    • Deerinwater


  • skippy

    Some of you make me so SICK. This man IS a hero, he LOVES this great country and doing what he can to preserve and protect our collective butts. Look out folks, free speech might just become a thing of the PAST.
    And while on the subject of military…..WHY THE F$CK IS THE ‘ALLEGED FORT HOOD SHOOTER’ still on payroll, he’s been charged – discharge his A$$. They sure want rid of Bales and now Stein. Oh, wait… is it because Hasan killed AMERICANS and is a MUSLIM and Bales killed Afghans? They are both military personnel, both killed innocent people……….similar?? I think so…………Where is the justice for Fort Hood?? Just tell me…………I sure want to know.

    • Deerinwater

      Well , we can agree that “your are sick”

      • J Daniel

        And deerinwater whom are your referring to as “we”…??? You may want to state that You agree someone may be “sick” but please leave “we” out of this… takes one to know one it is said… Have a nice day…

      • Flashy

        Deer… i wouldn’t use the word ‘sick”.

        Raving lunatic maybe. Has serious mental issues in need of medical treatment…I’m ok with that. A few fries short of a Big Mac Deal…absolutely. His IQ score is lower than his belt size…without doubt. His mental swiftness is slower than a herd of turtles wading through peanut butter…accurate.

        But ‘sick” ? I think you were too kind.

      • Libertytrain

        ah flash your intellectual prowess or lack thereof is being demonstrated by you once again.

      • Flashy

        you may be close to correct there liberty. Perhaps we should first ascertain if his mother got to know the first name of his father in the brief 30 minutes she ‘knew’ him …. then we can begin to question the grip on reality …

      • Libertytrain

        ah flash is trying hard to prove that he is even less than a thinking intelligent human being than even bill maher. Feel better – now that you shown how very small your brain is?

      • Flashy

        Liberty…I am somewhat confused. Here i am today taking a very Conservative stance in defining my views of the NEED for the 2nd and the strict demarcation between military and civilian under any administration … and you’re taking offense.

        Short of snuffing myself, is there anything I could do that would please you?

      • Libertytrain

        what does your insulting another human being have to do with pleasing me…. you’ve got to be kidding….. your mind is a vast wasteland apparent to all of us “regulars” here.

      • Deerinwater

        Well Daniel , he said that he was sick! and then went on to say this soldier was a “Hero”

        I think, I can get a “WE” agree , he is sick out of that!

        Maybe you’ve been bitten by the same werewolf as well and carry the same fever?

        You start using the term “Hero” that loosely, what have we left to call our true hero’s?

        We communicate with words, if you permit people to abuse them and not call it out, we loose communication. Without communication mankind is little more then gazing beast.

        This soldier is no hero, he’s stricken with right wing zealot political fever and a danger to himself and the men and women that he serves with. He takes liberties he does not have.

        Your little Tea Party has some serious down sides associated with it.

        We tolerate descent in the civilian world but that does not apply to the military. Rush call call our women whores and sluts without swift punishment and correcting but such freedoms and liberties has never been and never will be allowed in the military.

    • eddie47d

      Okay Skippy, Hasan is a cold blooded killer and so is Sgt Bales. Feel better now! They are both culpable for what they did irregardless of what religion they belong to.

      • Flashy

        Psst Eddie..there is no word as “irregardless’ <— pet peeve

      • JeffH

        Can’t help yourself can you flashy…I’m actually in eddie’s corner on this.

        Pet peeve or not , irregardless is a recognized acceptable nonstandard word in society.

        The American Heritage Dictionary, the Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary, and the Oxford English Dictionary all list the word irregardless, they also note that it’s considered nonstandard. Listing a word as nonstandard is a way that dictionaries concede that a word is in common use, but isn’t really a proper word.

        Irregardless is an informal term commonly used in place of regardless or irrespective, which has caused controversy since it first appeared in the early twentieth century. Most dictionaries list it as “nonstandard” or a word which has become socially acceptable. “Nonstandard” means the word is a colloquialism, not “incorrect” or not a word.

      • Libertytrain

        JeffH – as you as often told me, there’s something you can’t fix…. :)

      • JeffH

        Libertytrain, bless your heart, you just made me laugh out loud. :)

      • Libertytrain

        Oh dear….I do so enjoy you, Jeff. :)

    • John Wilch (TSgt, USAF Ret.)

      Skippy, look who we got in the Oval Office, “The Appeaser in Charge!” and he don’t want to offend his Masters by charging him with 1st Degree murder and convicting one of theirs. Oh, no we can’t have that, lets convict that SSgt for murder (even if he can’t remember doing it) and execute him.

      Kick the Bum out and elect someone else that will follow his oath of office; not step on the Constitution every chance he gets.

      Served over thirty years in the Military: first the US Army and then the Ida Air National Guard.

  • Pete0097

    No matter what he said on Facebook, he should not have done it on government computers on govt time. We have Facebook and other services including anywhere where e-mail can be sent blocked on our company computers. Even things like the NCAA brackets are blocked. That being said, he does have the right, on his own time and computer to say what he wants, but like any of us, his employer also has the right to terminate him if he posts against his employer.

    • Deerinwater

      So spying activate might be okay, if it’s on your own time?

      Sir. it’s subversion and could be construed in the family of spying.

      The military has never tolerated subversion in it ranks.

      You don’t have to like the Command & Chief. ~

      It was 1969 in Nam, ~we had a bulletin board outside the Order Room of my company (Headquarters and A company) Posted events, information, etc. There is always a photograph of the Command & Chief, along with the CO. on such a board.

      The latrine for peeing to accommodation 175 men was 3 round holes dug in the ground with a expanded wire covering them.

      One morning before reveille I went to pee and someone had taken Nixon photograph down and placed it down on the expanded wire and pee’ed on it. It struck a sore note with me at at the time and my feeling hasn’t changes over the years.

      I tell this true story only to document the fact, such behavior in not uncommon in the racks.
      So while this is nothing new, it won’t be overlooked and it won’t be tolerated if you are caught doing it. .

  • mic johnson

    The real reason the government makes rules like these is to prevent honest military personell from coming foward and telling the truth, what they see is happening in our government and military.They see things that other americans don’t see(its hidden from us)Thats why the(real) people incharge don’t want us voters to see the real picture.I was in the arm service and from what I see this Marine is a hero for coming forward and telling the world the truth.He as others can see obama is leading ALL US AMERICANS TO THE END OF WHAT AMERICA WAS.This president as the last 4 presidents have some kind of PIPE DREAM WHAT AMERICA SHOULD BE without asking the people.From where I stand I as most Americans don’t want this PIPE DREAM…

  • Fred Howard

    Obama is in direct violation of the Constitution as a non-naturalized citizen of the USA which disqualifies him to be President. So let me get this right, our Fraudulent President and/or his administration want to punish others, especially our armed forces, who are sworn to uphold the Constitution and put their lives on the line daily to do so. I think we need to remove our current administration most of who are in violation of the Constitution in some way or another and put the Military in Charge until we can have free elections un-encumbered by the unions or mafia gang who greatly benefit from having Obama as their leader.

    • Debbie, TX


    • Flashy

      Fred…you have a SCOTUS ruling on that?

      Just because such is your opinion, does not make it so. Just the very fact you have that opinion and there is a small minority holding the same highlights the necessity for complete non-political discussion in the ranks.

    • Deerinwater

      Make your case and prove it, ~ or stand down.

      That you elect to do neither only makes you appear~ stupid.

      • Doug

        Really turninwater prove what it common knowledge except for ignorant people like you that Obamanation is not legal to be president in many various ways! Number one not born to parents who are both US citizens. Most of all no proof of who the jack ass is. I think you were sniffing to much foilage with agent orange on it when serving but hey don’t worry Monsanto to bring back out for use so you can keep getting your fix!

      • Deerinwater

        Like I said, You show us the proof. So far, what you claim as Your Proof is been little more then a right wing construct to win the hearts and minds of racial zealots. The data has been planted, the field of evidence seeded. It’s an old trick that been used for centuries to win hearts and minds with tomfoolery for those wanting to believe and harbor a predisposition.

        Your zeal make you the fool.

  • GRusling

    The Sgt. will probably get a general discharge, which is what he has earned. The UCMJ specifically forbids the activities he has engaged in, and there’s no way he can claim to not be aware of that fact, since it’s taught to all enlisted personnel in boot camp.

    I can understand how he feels and why he feels that way, but it’s against regs to declare his position while representing himself (in or out of uniform) as a member of the U.S. Armed Forces.

    Sorry folks… that’s just the way it is and always has been…

    • Thor

      Actually it is the ‘Pentagon directive’ that ‘specifically’ forbids his political activities in its ‘interpretation’ and ‘clarification’ of the UCMJ–which means there has been a violation of the directive, not the UCMJ itself. But, you are correct in the proscription of ‘separation under General terms.’

      • Vigilant

        “Stein told the newspaper the Marines accused him of making statements about the president “that are prejudicial to good order and discipline,” in violation of the Uniform Code of Military Justice,”

      • Vigilant

        Article 134. General article:

        “Though not specifically mentioned in this chapter, all disorders and neglects to the prejudice of good order and discipline in the armed forces, all conduct of a nature to bring discredit upon the armed forces, and crimes and offenses not capital, of which persons subject to this chapter may be guilty, shall be taken cognizance of by a general, special, or summary court-martial, according to the nature and degree of the offense, and shall be punished at the discretion of that court.”

      • Nadzieja Batki

        If he was accused of saying certain things it does not follow that he said those things.

      • Thor

        Thanks, vig, for making my point. The ‘good order’ point has to be interpretted by the Pentagon via directives and any violation of directive has to be adjudicated via courts martial.

      • Vigilant

        “If he was accused of saying certain things it does not follow that he said those things.”

        Nadzieja, he posted those comments on the internet. He does not deny saying them.

  • James

    To Debbie from TX,all I will say to you is that you can talk all you want but the reality of the matter is simply this all of you want to act like President Obama wrote the rules and he didn’t.I recall when the Dixie Chicks said a true statement about “Prez W” and the uproar that they faced for a true statement about an unjust war did you try to defend them as now? Let’s just be honest and tell the truth what it is all about!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  • Frances Carney

    Everyone has the Right of Free Speech…but with Obama changing the Constitution as he pleases…then probably everyone will be critized or “jailed” for expressing their opinions…
    Remember what happened in Germany when Hitler came to power… Is America headed there??????

    • Vigilant

      This has nothing to do with anyone changing the Constitution. It’s a matter of violation of the UCMJ.

      • Nadzieja Batki

        Vigilant, respectfully but I must disagree with you. This incident if prosecuted marks the start of a deadly slippery slope and we have no way of knowing where it will stop. All signs point to DANGER ahead .

      • Vigilant

        Nadzieja, I have to disagree. This incident if NOT prosecuted marks the start of a deadly slippery slope and we have no way of knowing where it will stop. All signs point to DANGER ahead.

        This is nothing new. Once you turn the military into an open society, any person can disobey an order, unionize, slander their superiors, etc. No ma’am, the danger lies in liberalizing the military to the point where it is no longer the military.

      • Deerinwater

        Vigilant, they are just civilians and know , no other life. They carry notions of what being military might mean to they. They think that they know!

        You might as well talk to a tree, you’d get a better conversation.

        The military is active in making high quality soldiers to defend our nation and protect national interest. It is a collective society with authoritarian control employing a chain of command. You don’t disappoint or embarrass your superiors without expecting retribution.

        There is little room for self interest in this society.

        This life is so alien to civilians, there is few that can span the divide and the very reason why the military is required to MAKE soldiers, willing to invest years of training in a single man/woman.

    • Nadzieja Batki

      The Leftists have reached their grubby minds into every facet of society.
      So should we not believe that they are tinkering with the military as well?

      • Vigilant

        Leftists have no need to tinker with the military in the sense you are talking about. The armed forces were, are, and always will be a closed society in which dictatorial practices are not just a matter of fact. They are absolutely crucial to the maintenance of discipline and order.

        Servicemen, ironically, give up some freedoms in order to ensure the public can continue to keep theirs.

      • Deerinwater

        “The Leftists have reached their grubby minds into every facet of society.
        So should we not believe that they are tinkering with the military as well?”

        Well, it’s clear, your little tea party has attempted to infiltrate military ranks , that’s what this is all about ding dong.

        There’s no room for the Tea party in the military.

        What a crappy name, Tea Party ~ Not a name to grow into. The original tea party was stages by people who hide their faces and defer the guilt of their activities to native Americans.

      • Vigilant

        “The original tea party was staged by people who hide their faces and defer the guilt of their activities to native Americans.”

        Sorry Bob, hit the history books again. EVERYONE, including the British, knew it was the Sons of Liberty that did it. The Indian garb was to prevent identification of individuals.

        Have you been reading Howard Zinn?

      • Deerinwater

        Well, as I understand it, you are correct but none the less, it was as I suggested, ~was it not?

        And slogan of the moment was “taxation without representation” but in truth , the Crown wanted his payments in gold and this didn’t set well with some colonials that harbored ambitions and other ideas. “Taxation without representation” was just a message aimed low enough to were everyone might understand it and offer sway in the court of public opinion. While the end results served healed up Colonials true ambition. WAR! and separation from the Crown, permitting them to be big fish in a small pond and masters of their own ship.

    • Old Sarge

      How right you are. I have seen many comments that compare Obama with Hitler. Those who ignore or forget history are condemned to repeat it. Obama is counting on the majority of American voters to forget or ignore that dark time of World History and just how Hitler took power because he is following that same path.

      One of the first things Hitler did was to get government control of health care. Obama has done that. Another thing was to gain control of the Media. Obama has that. Hitler then confiscated firearms. Obama and Hillary, with the help of the United Nations, are working very hard behind the scenes to accomplish that. Hitler then got control of big business. Obama has Chrysler, GM and GE in his hip pocket. Hitler gained control of the courts. Obama has successfully got two highly controversial people on the Supreme Court and could appoint more. Before her appointment, Kagan publicly boasted about how she admired Chairman Mao as a compassionate political genius, and she even stated that private ownership of property (Like the house you are buying or have paid off) should be illegal. Even less than twenty years ago, such statements would have killed any chances of ever getting approved for the Supreme Court. What were those Senators smoking?

      No dummy or idiot could have pulled all that off no matter who was supporting him. Too many people underestimated him and still do and he knows how to use that to his advantage. Hitler was also underestimated by the German people. He used that to his advantage and that was how he took over Germany.
      The writing is on the wall and the voters are refusing to read it. I’m not saying anything new that I haven’t said many times in the past. I am saying the things that need to be said over and over. Wake up and smell the coffee America before it’s too late.

      • CountryCowgirl

        Thank you for your thoughtful answer. I have done extensive study of the Hitler reign of terror and WWII in general. It is amazing to me that we hear leaders in the world today deny that there was indeed a Holocaust!!!

        Sadly, people purposely try to forget the horrific lessons that they learned about Hitler and his rise to power along with the devastating consequences of his years in power. The whole European continent suffered and yet many CHOOSE to overlook or pretend it never happened.

        History has a way of indeed repeating itself . . . . I hope I don’t live long enough to witness the carnage for the second time in my life!

      • John Wilch (TSgt, USAF Ret.)

        Sarge, you forgot to say the Hitler knew how to say the right thing at the right time to fool his enemies. Well, if the American (sheaple) people don’t realize it yet BJO is doing the same thing right now. WAKE UP AMERICA, I feel that if he gains another term in office the US of A that alot of us grew up in will be history and we’ll be come a third world country under a Dictator (HIM).

        Thanks, Sarge for your service.

  • Chester

    This is one sergeant who overstepped his bounds, for sure. I hear some saying he should be allowed to say whatever he wants on his own time, with which I do agree. The only problem is, once you raise your right hand and say “I do,” none of your time is your own until you have separation papers in your hand and are on the bus for home. Until then, anything and everything you do reflects directly or indirectly on the military, and you are responsible to them for it. How many jobs do you know of where you can be required to request permission to marry or divorce? This is the life the sergeant chose when he signed in, and he has to accept the consequences of not following the rules of that life.

    • Vigilant

      You have hit upon it exactly.

  • vietnamvet1971

    I Stand & Support you 100% as a Vietnam Veteran I would not Serve under the current president.

  • Dave

    Maybe all solders should make a statement and see what they do. Are they going to discharge everyone? 1st. Amendment Free Speech.

    • Old Sarge

      No they wouldn’t discharge everyone. They would have a investigation and single out one person as the ring leader. They would then make an example of him/her by court martial and a bad discharge.

      • Nadzieja Batki

        Thank you for saying what will occur. Make an example of one and all will be demoralized.

      • Deerinwater

        one, three, five ten, ~ as deep as the rabbit hole goes.

  • Lawrence

    When one has volunteered to hazzard their life for country it seems they lose all constitutional rights.

    • Vigilant

      Not true. The serviceman retains the bulk of his Constitutional freedoms.

      By its very nature and mission, the military can NOT be run as a mini Constitutional Republic. Everyone, including the Founders, understood this very well.

  • Jim

    The Marines are slamming the Sargent for participating in a political function that is against Obozo right? But it was okay for Rear Admiral of the Gays Mullen and Gates to be homosexual activists? That was clearly what they were in their last days in office. Now they want to hang this Marine for doing the very same thing that they were doing?Clearly it all depends on whether or not you support the Obozo party line. The 2 highest persons in the military other than the Commander in Chief can be involved in pushing political agendas that go in line with Obozo but don’t let anyone of a lesser rank have an opposing view that will not be tolerated. If the Sargent is found guilty and punished, then surely Gates and Mullen should be too. Mullen can be brought back on active duty and prosecuted.

    • John Wilch (TSgt, USAF Ret.)

      Jim, you better check you facts: OBH is not the CinC because he has never been asked or given the go-ahead to do so by the full Congress. He can call himself that but being CinC right now is in name only.

      The only time the President is really the CinC is during a time of DECLARED war, such as Spanish American War (We’re still paying for that one in our taxes), WWI, WWII, or any other declared war or action.

      I served under several Presidents (1963 – 1992), some good, some bad and you should have heard the complaints and gripes going around about each and everyone. However, when it came time to put in all on the line (no matter who was in the White House) we did our duty.

  • Jamie Cameron

    That means the Military Personal should not be allowed to Vote for them either.
    I think the Marine did Great job for noticing The P.O.S in a hand basket the Government has become.
    their all Traitors by changing the Constitution to fill their pockets. and should be Dealt with as crimes against the Republic of N. America

    • Vigilant

      “Republic of N. America?” You’re joking, of course.

      I suggest you read a little history, and the Constitution itself, before you pontificate on matters concerning the Constitution.

      • Ted Crawford

        I’m not sure what your point is here Vigilant. Could you explain them in more specific terms?

    • Vigilant

      Ted, have you ever heard of the Republic of N. America? I didn’t think so.

      My point is that a person who doesn’t even understand the title of out great nation has little credibility.

      • JeffH

        Republic of N. America sounds eerily like a member of the North American Union(Canada, Mexico, and the United States). The concept is loosely based on the European Union…as part of the NWO.

  • CountryCowgirl

    I have never read so many “EXPERT” opinions in all my life!!!! After reading most of this “puff and blow”, what I have come away with is that “the old guys” want to take this “young whipper snapper” to the woodshed and ruin his life BECAUSE he had the nerve to speak up about what he believes!!! Perhaps if the “Old Guys” had had some brass “B*LLS” when they were young whipper snappers, our country might not be in the mess it is in!!! And if you “old boys” want to justify your position by saying it was part of the oath you took, that is fine but in case you haven’t noticed NO ONE upholds the oaths they take anymore . . . not Senators, not Representatives,not even the PRESIDENT!!!

    Consider Obama’s opinions about the Constitution, and note the animosity:
    ‘The Supreme Court never ventured into the issues of redistribution of wealth.’
    ‘It didn’t break free from the essential constraints that were placed by the Founding Fathers in the Constitution.’
    ‘The Constitution is a charter of negative liberties. Says what the states can’t do to you. Says what the federal government can’t do to you, but doesn’t say what the federal government or state government must do on your behalf.’
    ‘The civil rights movement became so court-focused I think there was a tendency to lose track of the political and community organizing and activities on the ground that are able to put together the actual coalition of powers through which you bring about redistributive change. In some ways, we still suffer from that.’

    Is the President saying the above things about the Constitution and then taking an oath to uphold it a form of treason????

    If you want to follow the sheeple to the gas chambers, that is fine with me, but I would prefer to fight to the death, right along with Sgt. Gary Stein, because I believe we need to return to the principles of the Constitution and The Rule of Law . . . . PERIOD!!!!! Maybe the days of undying loyalty have been replaced by the 99%, the career welfare recipients who COULD work and take care of themselves and don’t, by those who expect SOMEBODY else to pay their bills, by those who whine and cry when life’s realities set them back on their heels. You may not like it but there is going to come a time when you have to choose sides, and who do YOU want along side of you?

    • Flashy

      OK…and if your view of what the Constitution states differs? Who is right? From what you write, you think the Constitution states things far differently than anyone with an ounce of common sense and an iota of intelligence.

      Whatchya going to do about it? Have the good Sgt take me behind the shed and cap me?

      ’nuff said.

      • CountryCowgirl

        I have never professed to be an expert on The Constitution and its meaning, but our Fearless Leader taught Constitutional Law so there is NO excuse for not knowing what it says and what was intended by its writers. I just know that in the last three plus years, I have watched more and more of the decisions in this country being made in the form of “royal edicts” disguised as executive orders, and those edicts are directly effecting me and my right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness!

        As Commander in Chief, does this Prez owe it to the military as well as the American people to at least PRETEND that he understands and intends to follow The Constitution? It does not matter how HE thinks it should read or what he wishes it said; interpretation and application are NOT his job – the Executive Branch. That is exactly why the Judicial branch of gov’t exists. If the Prez is allowed to speak against the Constitution with absolutely no consequences, why is it different for the Sgt? I guess, from your point of view, it just makes a difference who has the power of the pen!

        My comment was basically to remind you that when the leader of our country does not uphold the very document he has sworn, with his hand on the BIBLE, under OATH to uphold, then perhaps we have a problem from the get-go.

        As for “take me behind the shed and cap me” . . . no sir because I got a feeling I am going to need all the ammo I have just to stay alive . . . wouldn’t want to waste the ammunitiion!

      • Flashy

        “My comment was basically to remind you that when the leader of our country does not uphold the very document he has sworn, with his hand on the BIBLE, under OATH to uphold, then perhaps we have a problem from the get-go. ”

        If you are referring to President Obama, who says he hasn’t ? And those that may say that…what SCOTUS ruling are they referencing? otherwise, it’s an opinion and a very subjective one at that.

        it’s like this. You may think the Individual mandate and the Health Care Reform Act is unConstitutional. I believe it is Constitutional. We won’t know which of us is correct until July when the SCOTUS issues its ruling. So unless you have specific examples where this President violated the Constitution against a SCOTUS ruling…

      • Doug

        Nothing would be better than then taking a fart like you outback and beating some sense into you but something tell me there is no light at the end of that tunnel!

      • Ted Crawford

        Perhaps she is reffering to Obamas’ disingenuous statement that “The Constitution doesn’t state what the Federal Government can do for you”. Artical 1, Section 8, seems to enumerate them quite clearly! The Tenth Amendment states that if it’s not in Section 8, it then falls to the States to deal with!

      • Flashy

        Doug…may I remind you of the wisdom of the great Salvor Hardin…”Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent”

        I will make the observation that your retort is one I often hear when I walk up to a group of TPers and we discuss viewpoints. I think they get tired of making some absurd statement and being corrected ‘Actually, the facts are ….’. . Always leaves ‘em stammering and stuttering. HA!

    • castaway

      Very good post, and you took the words from my mouth in your last statement. WHo? In modern America people have been taught it is bad to take sides. That is possibly the dumbest thing ever. I hear it every day, and it makes me sick.

  • Pastor Paul Sims

    Sgt. Stein! Carry on! If memory serves me correctly , the oath of enlistment I took in November 1965 said”I also promise to protect my country from enemies foreign and domestic!!!. Seems that there are some in Command situations more concerned with money and perceived powe than about our country’s might and security. The presodent is A JOKE. Also the Secretary of State. Charge a wounded warrior eith “”MURDER”” in country, let a M.D. in U.S. Army, be forgotten who killed those troops in Ft. Hood! Still no justice——he is a Muslim who treated people with PTSD, then he comes out of his cell and shoots those people killing some and they want to kick you out of the Marine Corps and try a soldier in combat with murder, brother we are in ancient Rpme as Lion meat.. l will keep us all in prayer. Pastor Paul Sims

    • KG

      You , Sir, are no Christian. Do you bleach your hood and robes before you burn the crosses or after?

      “..from each according to their ability, to each according to their need” or in other words “Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.”
      Romans 13

      1Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.(in other words Obama is president because God wanted him to be)

      2Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.(tea party dopeheads)

      3For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:

      4For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.

      5Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake.
      (in other words its the right thing to do)

      • Vigilant

        ““..from each according to their ability, to each according to their need” or in other words “Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.”
        Romans 13

        KG, I think your quote from Karl Marx falls a little flat when combined with the Golden Rule. They ain’t the same.

      • Flashy

        I agree Vig with your statement … but you would have to consider JC would be labelled a Commie Socialist if he were around today.

        Heck, one of the major tenets he espoused was to rid oneself of wealth and property so as to be able to devote every minute to proper observance and aid to all.

      • CountryCowgirl

        Are you saying that you think Karl Marx was a Christian????? God help us all!!!!!

      • Flashy

        Nope…I’m saying if JC was walking around today he’d be labelled a Communist or the very least a radical Socialist.

      • Viet Vet

        KG, you have no right to judge. Are you a Christian?

      • Flashy

        VietVet…doesn’t matter if KG is a christian or not. Clearly Pastor Paul Sims is not one applying for the Pearly Gates (or whatever it is christians aim for these days)

      • Thor

        How exactly do we go from a military man’s political activities getting him a dishonorable discharge to Jesus Christ being labeled ‘a commie socialist’–in the same blog? Flashman, these Christians really get you going, don’t they? Are you losing your touch?

      • Flashy

        No Thor..false christians get me going. Of which most of them are ….

      • Deerinwater

        “Viet Vet says:
        March 23, 2012 at 11:41 am
        KG, you have no right to judge. Are you a Christian?”

        The “right” has nothing to do with it, never has.

    • John Wilch (TSgt, USAF Ret.)

      Sir, I enlisted the Army in 1963 at the grand old age of 17 year, 2 months and 5 days old (Dec 20, 1963) and when I took my oath it clearly stated (What I can remember): “I solumely swear to uphold the Constitution from all enemies foreign and domestic and to obey all order from those that were appointed over me.” However, when I went through Basic training at Ft. Ord, CA my oath was further explained to me that there was times that an order could and should be question. I retired from the Id Air National Guard in 1992.

      When I became a Sergeant then later a Staff Sergeant I did in fact question some order and was infact couraged to do so. However, when those orders were either explained or changed, I did my damndest to caring them out.


      • Deerinwater

        Non believers? Non believers of what pray tell? The bite of the werewolf?

        What you say makes perfect sense.

        What you lose in the military, is the tolerance to your rights!

        If you elect to behave and speak in a provocative way and have plans of getting away with you need some mahogany on your chest and some hatch marks on you sleeve.

        You earn your these rights back, exactly like Churchill said. There is no room in the military for descent by a E4 or E5 with 3 or 4 years in service. 10 years and E7 won’t carry that load.

        It’s does not work that way, not even in the air force and you know it to be so.

        • John Wilch (TSgt, USAF Ret.)

          When I was trying to remember my oath I forgot one thing, I should have said: “I solumely swear to uphold the Constituion and “defender” her against all enemies foreign and domestic. Obey all orders from those appointed over me. So help me God.” However, during Basic Training at Ft. Ord, CA, I was taught that there were times that you could question those orders. You figure those times out.

          Oh, by the was, you don’t want someone that is a Glory-Hound with no brains. That Glory Hound will either get himself killed along with the men serving with him or get those men killed while he alone survives. You want someone who can think on his feet when the Sh-t hits the fan and come back with his men and the intelligence that he was sent in for.

          Oh, what branch of the Military did you say you served in and where?

      • Deerinwater

        Basic at Bliss, ~ Advance at Huachuca ~ advanced jungle in country and never a word about when it might be okay to not follow orders. It might be in the issued Soldiers hand book when we arrived “in country” but I never read it.

        Fort Huachuca is a United States Army installation under the command of the United States Army Installation Management Command. It is located in Cochise County, in southeast Arizona, about 15 miles (24 km) north of the border with Mexico. Beginning in 1913, for 20 years the fort was the base for the “Buffalo Soldiers”, the 10th Cavalry Regiment

        “The area is so desolate and barren, an old army description of the fort states, “It is the only fort in the Continental United States where you can be AWOL (absent without leave) for three days and they can still see you leaving”![citation needed]”

        This is simple just not true if you head for the mountains and Mexico. You got one day to disappear and four to find water before you die.

      • Deerinwater

        Lots of “skunk works” in Huachuca, great place for it and why few know of it, They are out of the news.

        On 1 February 1954 Huachuca was reactivated after a seven-month shut-down following the Korean War. It was the beginning of a new era for this one time cavalry outpost, one which saw Huachuca emerge as a leader in the development of Electronic warfare. The Army’s Electronic Proving Ground opened in 1954, followed by the Army Security Agency Test and Evaluation Center in 1960, the Combat Surveillance and Target Acquisition Training Command in 1964, and the Electronic Warfare School in 1966. In 1967, Fort Huachuca became the headquarters of the U.S. Army Strategic Communications Command (USSTRATCOM), which became the U.S. Army Communications Command in 1973; and U.S. Army Information Systems Command (USAAISC) in 1984. It is now known as the United States Army Network Enterprise Technology Command (NETCOM)/9th Army Signal Command.[5]

  • Old Sarge

    “The Professional Soldier forfeits all of his God given rights. One by one they are returned to him as privileges, but never all of them.” Winston Churchill

    In the oath I took I promised to defend this country against all enemies foreign and domestic. Also in that same oath I promised to obey the orders of the President and all others appointed over me. Like it or not he is still the Commander-in-Chief and they still have to respect the rank. There are two kinds of respect. The easiest respect to get is for rank and position because your people have to give you that so that respect isn’t important. The other respect is for you as a leader and a person. That is the hardest respect to get because your people do not have to give you that. You can’t demand it. You have to earn it. If you don’t have that respect, your people will let you down the minute you need them the most.

    • Vigilant

      Excellent, Old Sarge! The old saying I remember was “a good leader commands respect, he does not demand it.”

      From a USAF CMSgt with 24 years of service (1966-1990).

      • Old Sarge

        Twenty two years in the same time frame.

      • Libertytrain

        exactly – he earns respect, does not demand it.

      • Blue Devil

        A generation earlier, but only 4 years — 1944-1948

      • Deerinwater

        Churchill had a way of seeing through the haze and clouds of human conflict.

        Excellent Quote Sarg, and dead on target.

        • revnowwhilewecan

          Churchill was the epitome of British thinking. At large, todays world view of Britain can be directly linked to Churchill. Definitely ahead of his time in war planning and execution. Britain was going to win WWII no matter how many Americans it took!

      • John Wilch (TSgt, USAF Ret.)

        Old Sarge is 100% correct about respect. When I was promoted to the rank of E-5 I looked back and remembered what kind of leaders my Sergeants where and patterned myself after the one that looked out for my men and wasn’t afraid to do the same thing that I was asking them to do; also I looked out for their welfair; protected them from dumb officers that tried to get them to do something that was outside the duties that they were doing; and most of all I prayed that I had trained them to react to any situation properly and to come home. I DIDN’T WANT TO WRITE THAT LETTER. YOU GUYS KNOW THE ONE, THE ONE WHERE I HAD TO TELL THEIR FAMILY THAT THEIR SON HAD BEEN KILLED.

        I took my responsibility to heart and my section knew it and they returned my respect for them totally.

        Served in the US Army from 1963 to 1982; then switched to the Air National Guard for the remainder of my career. Credited for 38 years because some jobs I did, I didn’t and of course all the education I got while in.

      • Deerinwater

        Thanks for your loyal service John and glad you made it back.

  • GW

    Anybody here remember the Nuremberg Trials? Every soldier is held responsible and required to utilize personal initiative in direct opposition to military hierarchy when given an order which is unlawful, a war crime, etc., etc. If the Constitution is not the Law of the Land than what the he** is. And since when is upholdiong the Constitution a “political position”? Show me a politician or party which says the Constitution should be disobeyed outright or thrown out by the military or gov’t. Stand up and be counted.
    And as for the earlier rant about the 2nd amendment; any one who questions the need for a citizen to be able to protect themselves should cast their mind back to Europe where prior to and during WWII the death camps were brought into existence by legislative action enacted by an elected body in a democratic country- do we need to worry about what our government and military do? This Sergeant has my eternal respect and gratitude for his courage and service to our country- and I’m sure the vast majority of his fellow service men and women agree.

    • Flashy

      GW….two questions (actually three).

      1. Who decides what the Constitution states and what it says and should a military person be allowed to make that determination?
      2. What 2nd Amendment rant were you referring to?

      • Thor

        Answer 1–the Supreme Court of the United States

        Answer 2–It was expected of Lt. Cali (of Mai-lai fame) to decide whether his orders were lawful or not and he paid the price for a wrong decision.

        Besides, there is a difference in saying you will not follow an unlawful order and not following a lawful one. The first is expected, the latter an unlawful act.

        OK…let’s go off on another off-topic tangent….

    • Old Sarge

      The Nuremberg Trials set up that rule because it was the only way to be able to effectively prosecute the Nazi War Criminals. Without it they would all use the “Just following orders” defense and a lot more than just a few would have walked out of that courtroom free and clear.

  • Ted Crawford

    From many comments here, such as this one “He’s clearly unworthy to serve since he can’t obey orders”, it seems that if the Nuremberg trials were held today, only Hermann Goering would be found guilty!
    Then we have comments like this one; “He’s amply demonstrated he has no principles” ! By that criterion the Nazi’s were some of the most principled people to ever exist!

    • Deerinwater

      Not only did Goering implement orders, he crafted orders and directives. There is a huge difference.

      I know that you are looking for support for your argument but you won’t find it there Sir.

      • Ted Crawford

        My arguement requires only historic fact for support! The other twenty three defendants all claimed they were only following orders, even those such as Jodl and von Ribbentrop! Only Goering , openly and even defiantly accepted, even demanded credit for his actions!
        By the criterion “They must follow orders” the other twenty three would have had to be accuited!

      • Ted Crawford

        I intended to add that if following orders is a measurement of someones principles then the Nazis weren’t anything if not principled!

  • http://Facebook Rosemary Roy

    What a disgrace—when a service person does not have the right to express HIS freedom of thought or speech. In my opinion his rights are in violation of our constitution. It is right for him to go into the service and put his life on the line for this country, but not have any freedom of speech. Men and women in our prisons for serious crimes have more rights than he does—IS THERE SOMETHING WRONG WITH THAT PICTURE?

  • http://none dan

    GOD BLESS THIS MAN i am behind him 100% god bless the oathe keepers too..all you (expletive deleted) sheeple will be thanking them when they save your sorry (expletive deleted) from the coming marshal law fema camps.. there are so many stupid people out there i often wonder if they deserve saving??

  • kellys

    Unfortunately this guy will become the next Spc New. Remember him, the guy who wouldnt wear the UN blue for Bill Clinton. As it says on the guys poster, the quote by Washington the first General of all American forces as well as the first President and commander in chief, ” When we assumed the soldier we did not lay aside the citizen.”.

    Washingtons quote is the precedent set and that settles it for me.

  • Leo Elliott

    Old Sarge, you’re out of touch with reality. I was with one of the army units that were dispatched to quell the watts riots in LA, we were given the order to shot some of the rioters. I refused! I wasn’t ready to start shooting American citizens. Even though I was quite prejudiced toward blacks at the time, I repeat at the time. Later the order was rescinded. And nothing ever came of me refusing a direct order. I believe, It’s called moral turpitude.

    • Ted Crawford

      I had a similar experience Leo. In 1968 , as a member of the Ready Reaction Force for that month, we were activated to respond to the demonstrators at the Democrat Convention. We were issued bayonets and ammo, haveing recently returned from my first tour in Nam, iI like you wasn’t ready to harm Americans. I informed the NCOIC of that, his answer was ” Sargent you’ll do as ordered”!
      We went to Chicago, but were never called on to respond

    • Old Sarge

      Were the rioters you were ordered to shoot unarmed? If that was the case I would have done the same thing.

      • jim

        in riot situations, you make the call when and when not to shoot.
        if someones life is in danger, someone getting raped etc…

      • Old Sarge

        You are correct Jim. In 1967, a good friend of mine was in the unit from the 82d Airborne that went to Detroit. An armed rioter was trying to shoot him. He shot the rioter. In those days it was an open and shut case of self defense. By the way. He didn’t kill the rioter. He only wounded him enough to stop him.

  • Linda

    Things are moving faster than I had expected. Most Americans are frogs in a pot not noticing the heat has been turned on and are sure to be cooked!!! Does Israel take American immigrants? Help us Jesus!

    • Ted Crawford

      Do you realize that it would take as few as three nuclear weapons to completely annihilate Israel Linda? They’ll recieve very little and very late assistance from this administration!

      • Old Sarge

        That is if they receive any help from this administration at all. Remember. Last year this administration tried to throw Israel under the bus.

  • Carol J

    A directive is not an order. Who better than someone who is in the middle of the mess to tell us what is happening. He’s right in saying he will not obey an order to detain or harm a fellow American. That is not the job of the military.

  • libertarian58

    Banning a soldier from political activities is the grandest of oxymorons. After all, war IS the biggest “political activity” there is.

  • Pastor Paul Sims

    I wonder how many people here passing judgement on this man’s integrity have actually been in uniform. Also to the person who asked about my robes, with the blood of white,black, Hispanic,and Vietnamese , they were washed! Now you kind sir are the racist not me!. I am a blood boughtChristian from a Hebrew who also told His disciples to go and buy swords. Hence He proved His healing power and His humility by touching the soldier’s ear that the disciple Peter “lopped “off!

  • flybye

    Hey boys & girls the military system is a dictator sys. I couldn’t stand more than three years, & if we don’t vote this guy that is squatting in our house out we are going to see a system in America like Germany was under Hitler in the late 1930′s —1945.

  • chuckb

    flybye, didn’t you meant rhodesia didn’t you, barry and mugabe have a lot in common.

  • http://personallibertydigest gottaplenty

    This has been a sublimeal message from way back. Some can uphold thier party affiliation in open and others had better not. When I graduated from boot camp USMC in 1952 our D.I. gave a lesson in how our field scarf was to be tied . Just a common tie knot. If he caught any one wearing a windsor knot he would recomend doing bootcamp a second time . He very loudly emphasized that a windsor knot was conservative or the hated republican . sign. The simple knot indicated democrat. Well after i got thru the gate ,out of there i retied my field scarf knot to you can guess.. I never forgot that . then again was that much different than the Sgt. Stein , disregard for stupid political pressure , and attending his job The constitution?

  • chuckb

    excuse the bad composing, wasn’t paying attention

  • Maryland Freestater

    I myself would like to see a Ten Million American March on DC with the intent to force His Obamaness to resign and take his Czars with him. There is a critical mass of Americans that comprehends something is VERY wrong in our nation nowadays. We do need a change from that which Obama is the latest, yet possibly the most virulent symptom of.

    Bush Jr. DID do a lot of antiAmerican things in his terms – the Patriot Act in response to what I’m starting to believe was a ‘false-flag’ event (9/11). So it’s not surprising that a leftist like Obama would take advantage of his position as President and start passing laws like NDAA, then last week a law giving Presidential control over all US food-producers to sequester their crops and livestock, and yesterday’s passing of a bill giving him permission to strip any American of their citizenship?

    If these acts are NOT treasonous, and meriting a popular reaction to such, then we are TRULY lost as a Nation.

    I’m tired of traffic cams at every intersection.

    I’m aghast that nonprofits can no longer feed the homeless due to ‘health regulatory standards’.

    I am beyond enraged that gas costs $4 a gallon or more, and that energy generation technology which could make the entire planet energy sufficient many times over is brutally suppressed with the knowledge of the Gov’t.

    I am sick of the overregulation which crushes initiative.

    And there’s political correctness…I won’t even go there.

    The John Birch Society was right! I NEVER thought I’d go there…

    We need to reclaim our country and what it truly stands for.

  • Gilberto

    I salute you Sgt Gary Stein, it’s refreshing to see a young individual full of spit and fire. Give them hell, may the force be with you, and remember that good jarheads never take the easy road out.

  • http://None Carl, Retired US Army LTC

    The very title of the Face Book Page, “Armed Forces Tea Party” may violate the Pentigon Directive about Political Activities. If he used a US Government Computer and Internet connection, he definatly broke the policy. The Pentigon Directive and all the sevice branches policies are based on a Federal Law that has been around for about 50 years. The last thing we want is a Politicalized Military. Them we become like the USSR or several other loser countries.

    • Searcher4851

      To believe there are no politics in the military is naive. Where do you think generals come from?

      • http://None Carl, Retired US Army LTC

        Internal Military Politics are one thing, but speaking for a national level highly visable political organization is a whole new ball game. The Federal Law limiting political activities covers both the Military and all Federal Employees. I work for the US Post Office and cannot participate in political activities while wearing my Mail Carrier Uniform.

    • John Wilch (TSgt, USAF Ret.)

      Sir, as you can see from my signiture I’m a Retired NCO and I heard alot of complaints and gripes from the people that I was put in command of. And, Sir, my officers and I just over looked them because of the old saying, “A HAPPY SOLDIER IS A GRIPEING ONE!” or something like it. My guys and I were in a field that was very dangress and we had to let off steam somewhere (we were Scout, or Recon) and our officers knew it. Oh, yeah, when we were told to move out; we were the first ones out the gate.

      I for one questioned my orders a few times and when they were either changed (when the officer realized his mistake) or explained I did my duty and tried to follow them to the letter, howver there were times that I had to change them on the fly because of the situation. I never got in trouble for doing that because I would explain to my Lt why they had to be changed and he was intellengent enough to know why (sometimes).

      • Deerinwater

        Well, great! When do plan to enlist and start your class?

  • revnowwhilewecan

    What’s sad is that this man cannot openly voice his OPINION without supposedly being in violation of the U.C.M.J. while the commander-in-chief is allowed to, BY HIMSELF, invade and occupy foreign lands and kill civilians and list them as “unfortunate” or “unintended” targets without approval from the bodies put in place to safeguard against such an action. Forget about the constitution. I’m sure these actions are in someway in violation of the U.C.M.J., no? Hypocrisy at it’s finest. People wonder why we are loathed as a country and ridiculed as a “democracy. For those that wish to again (sadly) make this a partisan issue, I was not only speaking about this POTUS.

  • Mike

    Please do put him out of the military!! He will become a martyr for the thousands of marines and serviceman that are asleep and not paying attention to the loss to the Country they are serving to the socialist in the WH.

    He has broken NO rules that I can determine based on the information available. The military as with all government entities can make it be whatever they want it to be when it comes to the law. The REAL law matters not, especially the Constitution that the military has sworn to protect and uphold.

    Please continue to drive the military away and wake them up so that when it hits the fan we will be able to depend on them to support the Country and not the treasonous government.

    • Deerinwater

      Yes he has, he’s broken rules and a code of conduct. And if as you suggest, there is more GI’s like him, it’s time for them to go as well.

      The seeds of contempt in leadership will not be tolerated in the military.

      It’s not complicated. If you want a more complicated life with a bill of rights, become a civilian.

  • libertarian

    The honor of the Marine Corp must never be shamed by someone like Sgt. Stein. He fully deserves a dishonorable discharge. You do not put your dirty laundry in public if you don’t like a superior officer you leave. If you want to be political you leave. The USMC has a code of honor all participates respect, live and die by. Truth, Honor, Justice and above all loyality to the Corp.

    • Donald York

      Man, did you not hear Leon Panetta say that he takes his directives from the UN and world body, and that he then would inform the congress what action the president and he would do? When we take our oath, it is for the US constitution and to be loyal and faithful to its directives. It is the law of the land.

  • Neil Swan

    Sgt Stein is probably happy to get out the marines. He can now become an active member of the tea party and knock the government without going against millitary law.


  • FreedomFighter

    The US Marines have always attracted men with large impressive testicals, its good to see its still happening.


    Laus Deo
    Semper Fi

    • Deerinwater

      A bucket full of balls and tiny brains, they are indeed noted for. We couldn’t do what we’ve done without them, giving credit where credit is due.

      We don’t need a lot of Marine’s doing a lot thinking for us. Now, if you want to destroy, something, they are masters of disaster and the first calling into service. A rational sane man wouldn’t dare go! and we love them for that. I hold the Corp in the highest regards.

      You can’t expect a race horse to pull a plow, you can’t expect a draft horse to run a race.

      So get your thinking in order. But I won’t be holding my breath until you do. It’s not in you, and I accept that.

      This corp man does not hold a leadership position but it seems you are attempting to elevate him because you share the same lacking in cognoscenti skills. Both of you eating the same poison would be my guess.

      Now the Tea Party is attempting to create an epidemic in the military ranks. Oh Oh ! That won’t last long. They can get away with it in the civilian world, using the freedom of speech to spread rumors and lie, call our women whores and sluts.

      The Tea Party may have the GOP running scared, but in the end all your good works will be thrown out with the bad due to their zealotry and unwillingness for compromise on any level.

      By your own hand, you have installed Obama for a second term.

      • John Wilch (TSgt, USAF Ret.)

        Deerinwater, I take offense from your s–t, you are the kind that thinks that the world owes you a living. Well, dips–t, for your information it doesn’t.

        Oh, as to the Sgt. not being in a leadership position, who do you think leads the rifle squad into combat it sure ain’t no college boy (Officer). That is why they call the rank NCO (Non-commissioned Officer) he is the one that makes sure his troops are taken care of and make sure that the mission is executed properly.

        As to the Tea Party being racist or anti-woman we are not. We just want a Government that lives up to they’re oath of defending the Constitution, less intrustion into our lives, less taxes, defending our borders, etc.

        And, for your information its Corps nor corp; better yet its Marine Corps for someone of your ilk.

        • Deerinwater

          Oh ! airforce give a rest, you were born offended.
          You been living on federal money most of your life! and continue to this very today.

          I need to be the one offended.

          • John Wilch (TSgt, USAF Ret.)

            Deerinwater, I earned my retirement both Social Security and Military retirement. First off I join the US Army December, 19, 1963 and the age of 17 years. During my time in the military I worked at several jobs (71H: Personel Specialis, 36C (Heavy wire construction (Climbed poles)), Truck Driver (Long haul), Door gunner: 1st Cav Div (AM), S-1 Clerk, 16P (Redeye gunner), 19D (Armored Recon), 19D30 (Armored Recon Section Sergeant), 19E (Armored Crewman on an M60 tank), 94B (Cook); the proceeding was accomplished during my first 19 years of service, then I joined the USAF to finish out my career for a total of 38 years. this was done with me raising a family and going to college. Oh, I forgot to say that there were some jobs I did in the military that I can’t talk about if I did I’d be going to jail.

            As to my Social Security I earned every dime I get through paying my taxes from the time I started working until now: I am 65 years old.

            Oh, I forgot I am also getting a VA Service connected disability pension: I was injured in Vietnam and then again in Desert Storm.

            So, jerkwater, I have earned every thing I get. Oh, I also have to pay taxes on my Military retirement and Social Security.

      • FreedomFighter

        Man you sound jealous of men with large impressive testicals. BTW large testicals and a quick wit are not mutually exclusive…except in your case I fear.

        Laus Deo
        Semper Fi

      • Deerinwater

        LOL! okay bucket mouth ;-)

        I can’t remember a time we need smart Marines that smelled good and had any table manners, that’s never been their long suit. They are more like jack and spare tire, when you need them, nothing less will do.

      • Deerinwater

        So, jerkwater, I have earned every thing I get. Oh, I also have to pay taxes on my Military retirement and Social Security.

        So you don’t mind if others feels the same way? That they earned it?

        I’d say, you been most fortunate and confiscated for your service .

        Was it not an honor to serve your country?

        Thanks for serving and glad you made it home solider.

        But bottom line, it’s still all Federal money and politicians wars with little purpose other the shift so money around and kill off hundreds of thousands of people, with many of them having little to gain and everything to lose.

        I served as well, I know what we did, both the good and the bad.

        It might only stop if old soldiers say , enough of this madness.

  • Tunaman


    • Old Sarge

      I have also seen the U-TUBE videos about the FEMA camps. Contrary to popular belief, it wasn’t Obama that ordered their construction. I first started hearing roomers about the the old railroad car repair depot in Indiana being converted during the Reagan Administration. If that is true, Reagan must have known about it and condoned it along with Bush 41, Clinton and Bush 43. Either one of those presidents could have put a stop to it but didn’t. The initial idea was actually in the works long before anyone knew who Obama was. FEMA got its start with Executive Order 12127 in March 1979 by President Carter. Executive Order 12148 in July 1979 by Carter combined it with other agencies to include Civil Defense. In March 2003, under Bush 43, it became part of Homeland Security. It is possible that the initial idea could have been sparked by Nixon or Ford but Carter’s executive orders got the ball rolling.

      To start filling those camps, the government will have to disarm the people. It will be difficult at best. To disarm the people, the ATF will have to go door to door and they don’t have the manpower to do it alone. They will need help and a lot of it. I don’t think they will be able to get that help from a majority of our military or local police either. I still don’t believe that our military would take up arms against fellow Americans. Our real strength is still in our National Guard and Reserve components. Many of them, along with the local police, are also very active members of their communities and I don’t think they would take up arms against their friends, family or neighbors. I also think that relocating them to other states would not work either. I strongly believe that they would go as far as to join their fellow Americans against the gun confiscators. With all the guns in this country, registered or unregistered it would be very difficult to locate them. I am sure the President and his followers are well aware of this and will request help from the United Nations. The UN would gladly send troops from China, Iran and North Korea to name a few and, for the first time since the War of 1812, we would again be fighting foreign troops on our soil. Our, so called, NATO Allies will be unwilling or powerless to help us. It would be a bloodbath. I live near a military installation and there are several National Guard and Reserve units in the area. Several members of the Reserve components and Active Military live in my neighborhood. I also have several family members serving. We have all seen in this and similar blogs that the President is building up his own private army of hand picked people that he plans to have just as well equipped as our regular military. He calls them his “Ready Reserve Force”. At the same time, he is reducing the size of our active and reserve components. Why do you suppose he is doing that? Could it be that he does not trust the majority of our military to blindly and gladly follow his orders without question? Since the late 60s or early 70s reserve and National Guard units were no longer allowed to store ammunition for their weapons at their armories. Why do you suppose is the reason for that? Could it be that they can’t be trusted to take up arms against their fellow Americans just because the President tells them to do so? I meet many Active Military on a daily basis and I work with with several reservists in their civilian jobs so perhaps that is why I have more faith in our military than some of you obviously do. The people who will be kicking down our doors looking for guns, or carting you off to FEMA camps, will not be American troops. If Joseph McCarthy were still alive, he would be saying “I TOLD YOU SO!”

  • Donald York

    Sgt. Stein could do even more and join OathKeepers. We don’t obey unlawful orders either.Patriots come from all walks of life, and to me, Sergeant Stein and other military people like him are just that, Patriots.
    We have a commander in chief in the office of president who takes his marching orders from the UN and tramples on the constitution for which he swore an oath to uphold. Obama should be impeached for his crimes against the US, sgt. Stein should receive praise for standing up for what he beleives in.

    • Neil Swan

      Obama follows the constitution.
      It’s the religious right and the tea party that don’t.


      • Donald York

        Wrong Neil, you can go back to the basement now.

      • revnowwhilewecan


      • revnowwhilewecan

        I didn’t know they ratified the constitution so that a POTUS can invade a country kill it’s leader and replace the regime without the approval of the House and Senate. When was that vote? Did they earmark it on some tax law and push it through on New Years Eve?

    • Neil Swan

      I don’t know what you mean by back to the basement. I belong to Americans United,
      Interfaith Alliance, UCLA, and Southern Poverty Law Center. They are the ones who follow tne constitution, but the religious right doesn’t think so.


  • TIME

    I have only this to add.

    I ask all of you this simple question, how many people do you think would have been killed – by Nazi Germany if the Military members had stood up and said -

    Please — Just ponder that question.

    Now ponder this question, How many AMERICAN’S would not have died in Nam, if the MILITARY members had just said, NO we will not go be police over there so Dupont and GE and Monsantao and the Rockefler’s & Rothschilds can make boat loads of money.

    Now think how many Americans would still be alive if the MILITARY members said NO we will ot go to the Middle east to make Daddy BUSH and the same gang of CON artist noted above happy, as well as BOAT Loads of MONEY.

    Now ask yourself, have any of these mindless wars or police actions, affected you or someone you know’s family?
    Now what if it were your son, your father, your uncle, your friend. Can we ever justify the acts of Politicans who are at best CRIMINALS?

    We need to stand up and say “NO MORE WARS” for the CRIMINALS in DC who are nothing but puppets to the 13 Bloodlines, who own all the BANKS.

    Do any of you understand that the real MONEY is all in the hands of the 13 Bloodlines who not only own everything in the world, But they also don’t PAY any TAX’S at all!!
    Hey by the way they also think they are the Descendants of the GOD they call Satan!

    HELLO OUT THERE.. Learn who wants to kill you, let alone have you pay for it, and shut you up so you can’t speak out the crimes they commit……….

    Some guy just like any of you said something about a DC CON ARTIST,
    Thats his JOB to do so.
    If any of you think thats wrong, all I can say is may GOD forgive you.

    PEACE and LOVE.

    • Deerinwater

      And if American and Allied troops hadn’t had soldiers that could follow orders, work as one as single unit, you’d be speaking German and doing the goose step by now.

      • FreedomFighter

        The Germans worked far better as a unit than the Americans, maybe a brain in the group is what gave us the edge…and not just blindly following orders.

        Laus Deo
        Semper Fi

      • Deerinwater

        This is true, the German solider did so out of strict disciplined and “Fear”. And if Hitler had not sircome to his madness we might have lost that war.

        His eastern push was a folly, the Russian’s tied him down far too long. Close but no cigar.

        The sinking of the Lusitania swayed American thinking, his wolf pack against the rest of the free world created a storm Hitler could not endure. Stretched supply lines and perto shortage, logistic did him in. The only thing that might a have saved Germany was to kill Hitler and she scale down from her military ambitions.

        This was attempted several times.

  • Concerned Montana

    I didn’t take time to read all comments, so may be redundant, but from what i DID read I would say that some of you had better read the artical again. No one saId he faced dishonorable discharge, only that he was barred from using the government computers. Nothing was said about the MILITARY being partisan. But, as individuals, our service men and women who offer their very lives for their country, should certainly have the right to have opinions, and express them, just as they are allowed to vote (when the liberals can’t keep their votes from counting)..
    But then, is it perfectly all right for Obama to the government furnished phones and office space to campaign, and to lobby against bills that do not fit his socialist agenda??
    If there are rules for military officers, there should surely be some constrictions on the commander-in-chief..

    • castaway

      There are constrictions for obama, he just follows the ones he likes.

  • FWO21

    I would think that if an armed service member can’t have free speech, then no one can.

    They reversed the “don’t ask, don’t tell” didn’t they? Well, this too, can be changed.

    I also believe the President of the United States should have to be in the military for at least four years to qualify for president; then, maybe, they wouldn’t be so gung ho on going to war with everyone.

  • Will

    I think our soldiers should have more rites and privilege than a citizens, Ive read some of the most ridiculous sheit on here. What privilege would you have if not for our troops? you Sorry Bastard traitors wouldn’t even be living here. We need to get behind this guy, Did you hear about the masses of people that traveled across country when the kid got shot the other day , because the shooter was protected by the stand my ground law, Why dont we stand by our soldier? why are you people taking sides with Barry Obama over a man that would give his life for you. This soldier did what no body else has the spine for and you attack him, hes trying to protect you from this Muslim dictator, Obama’s a Narcissist, Go read what that means at Wikipedia.
    Dr. Sam Vaknin is an Israeli psychologist. Interesting view on our president. Dr. Vaknin has written extensively about narcissism.

    Dr. Vaknin States “I must confess I was impressed by Obama from the first time I saw him. At first I was excited to see a black candidate. He looked youthful, spoke well, appeared to be confident — a wholesome presidential package. I was put off soon, not just because of his shallowness but also because there was an air of haughtiness in his demeanor that was unsettling. His posture and his body language were louder than his empty words. Obama’s speeches are unlike any political speech we have heard in American history. Never a politician in this land had such quasi “religious” impact on so many people.

    The fact that Obama is a total incognito with Zero accomplishment, makes this inexplicable infatuation alarming. Obama is not an ordinary man. He is not a genius. In fact he is quite ignorant on most important subjects.”

    Dr. Sam Vaknin, the author of the Malignant Self Love believes “Barack Obama appears to be a narcissist.” Vaknin is a world authority on narcissism. He understands narcissism and describes the inner mind of a narcissist like no other person. When he talks about narcissism everyone listens. Vaknin says that Obama’s language, posture and demeanor, and the testimonies of his closest, dearest friends suggest that the man is either a narcissist or he may have narcissistic personality disorder (NPD).

    Narcissists project a grandiose but false image of themselves. Jim Jones, the charismatic leader of People’s Temple, the man who led over 900 of his followers to cheerfully commit mass suicide and even murder their own children was also a narcissist. David Koresh, Charles Manson, Joseph Koni, Shoko Asahara, Stalin, Saddam, Mao, Kim Jong Ill and Adolph Hitler are a few examples of narcissists of our time. All these men had a tremendous influence over their fanciers. They created a personality cult around themselves and with their blazing speeches elevated their admirers, filled their hearts with enthusiasm and instilled in their minds a new zest for life. They gave them hope! They promised them the moon, but alas, invariably they brought them to their doom.

    When you are a victim of a cult of personality, you don’t know it until it is too late. One determining factor in the development of NPD is childhood abuse “Obama’s early life was decidedly chaotic and replete with traumatic and mentally bruising dislocations,”says Vaknin. “Mixed-race marriages were even less common then. His parents went through a divorce when he was an infant two years old. Obama saw his father only once again, before he died in a car accident. Then his mother re-married and Obama had to relocate to Indonesia, a foreign land with a radically foreign cult lure, to be raised by a step-father. At the age of ten, he was whisked off to live with his maternal (white) grandparents. He saw his mother only intermittently in the following few years and then she vanished from his life in 1979. “She died of cancer in 1995.”

    One must never underestimate the manipulative genius of pathological narcissists. They project such an imposing personality that it overwhelms those around them. Charmed by the charisma of the narcissist, people become like clay in his hands. They cheerfully do his bidding and delight to be at his service. The narcissist shapes the world around himself and reduces others in his own inverted image. He creates a cult of personality. His admire rs become his co-dependents. Narcissists have no interest in things that do not help them to reach their personal objective. They are focused on one thing alone and that is power. All other issues are meaningless to them and they do not want to waste their precious time on trivialities. Anything that does not help them is beneath them and does not deserve their attention.

    If an issue raised in the Senate does not help Obama in one way or another, he has no interest in it. The “present” vote is a safe vote. No one can criticize him if things go wrong. Those issues are unworthy by their very nature because they are not about him.

    Obama’s election as the first black president of the Harvard Law Review led to a contract and advance to write a book about race relations. The University of Chicago Law School provided him a lot longer than expected and at the end it evolved into, guess what? His own autobiography! Instead of writing a scholarly paper focusing on race relations, for which he had been paid, Obama could not resist writing about his most sublime self. He entitled the book Dreams from My Father.

    Not surprisingly, Adolph Hitler also wrote his own autobiography when he was still a nobody. So did Stalin. For a narcissist no subject is as important as his own self. Why would he waste his precious time and genius writing about insignificant things when he can write about such an august being as himself?

    Narcissists are often callous and even ruthless. As the norm, they lack conscience. This is evident from Obama’s lack of interest in his own brother who lives on only one dollar per month. A man who lives in luxury, who takes a private jet to vacation in Hawaii, and who raised nearly half a billion dollars for his campaign (something unprecedented in history) has no interest in the plight of his own brother. Why? Because, his brother cannot be used for his ascent to power . A narcissist cares for no one but himself.

    This election was like no other in the history of America. The issues were insignificant compared to what is at stake. What can be more dangerous than having a man bereft of conscience, a serial liar, and one who cannot distinguish his fantasies from reality as the leader of the free world?

    I hate to sound alarmist, but one is a fool if one is not alarmed. Many politicians are narcissists. They pose no threat to others. They are simply self serving and selfish. Obama evidences symptoms of pathological narcissism, which is different from the run-of-the-mill narcissism of a Richard Nixon or a Bill Clinton for example. To him reality and fantasy are intertwined.

    This is a mental health issue, not just a character flaw. Pathological narcissists are dangerous because they look normal and even intelligent. It is this disguise that makes them treacherous. Today the Democrats have placed all their hopes in Obama. But this man could put an end to their party. The great majority of blacks voted for Obama. Only a fool does not know that their support for him is racially driven. This is racism, pure and simple.

    The downside of this is that if Obama turns out to be the disaster I predict, he will cause widespread resentment among the whites. The blacks are unlikely to give up their support of their man. Cultic mentality is pernicious and unrelenting. They will dig their heads deeper in the sand and blame Obama’s detractors of racism. This will cause a backlash among the whites. The white supremacists will take advantage of the discontent and they will receive widespread support. I predict that in less than four years, racial tensions will increase to levels never seen since the turbulent 1960′s.

    Obama will set the clock back decades. America is the bastion of freedom. The peace of the world depends on the strength of America , and its weakness translates into the triumph of terrorism and victory of rogue nations. It is no wonder that Ahmadinejad, Hugo Chavez, the Castrists, the Hezbollah, the Hamas, the lawyers of the Guantanamo terrorists, and virtually all sworn enemies of America are so thrilled by the prospect of their man in the White House.

    America is on the verge of destruction. There is no insanity greater than electing a pathological narcissist as president.

  • Jim

    From the way I read this article, Sgt. Stein did not criticize the president, here merely criticized one of his policies and that is one that more then half of the American public disagrees with which is Obamacare. If Sgt Stein is a member of the Tea Party it is not an orgnization that is out to overthrow the government but an organization that was formed to improve the government.

    When a rule pertaining to not allow military personnel to be openly gay was illegal, the president changed the rule and I believe two male Marines having sex in a foxhole while on active duty during a conflict is a danger to not only them but to their fellow marines since they can’t watch for an enemy attack while they are giving each other head. Threatening a honorable Marine with disciplinary action simply because he does not agree with the unconstitutional Obmacare is surely a policy that the president should do away with since it is the president that is in violation since he took an oath to protect the Constitution of America and violated that oath.

    I stand with you Sgt. Stein and in what you believe in and to anyone who commented that Sgt Stein violated policy, prove it before you condemn a man that is willing to fight for his Country and the Constitution of his country.

    If this is not a sign of We The People are being controlled by a wanna be dictator, then it is time for all of us to learn how to live a life under a Kenyan warlord.

    • recce1

      Jim, for active duty military personnel, opposing a government policy is restricted. They can’t be in uniform, on duty, claiming to speak for the service, be an officer in a political organization, or use government equipment in doing so. If he used government computers to post he may have violated regulations. On the other hand, his statement that he would never obey an unlawful order is justified as the UCMJ REQUIRES members to disobey unlawful orders.

      However, if I recall, many gay military members demonstrated in uniform to urge Mr. Obama to rescind the DADT policy. So for the administration I guess it’s whose ox is gored.

      • Flashy

        not exactly true as to the military folks who came out gay. Before the end of the sanctions, anyone who came “out” was forced to resign. Many “outed’ and went public about their records in battle, their roles in the military, and urged the end of “Don’t ask, don’t tell”

      • recce1

        Flashy, I said those who demonstrated for gay rights in the military, not those who said openly that they were actually gay. I know of no military member who was kicked out for saying he or she thought the DADT policy was wrong. Some people thought however that anyone who advocated rescinding DADT was gay, an unfair and erroneous assumption. But the policy forbade their being asked if they were in fact gay, not that it wasn’t violated. Nevertheless, as you correctly said, many who admitted they were gay were forced out.

        So I believe my point still stands. It all depends on whose ox is gored. Obama has used men and women in uniform as backdrops to push certain political agendas. But that’s Obama’s indiscretion, not theirs.

    • Bellagram

      Why in the world would you ever assume that two marines would be having sex in a foxhole on active duty any more than you would think a man and a woman would be having sex. And giving head?? Really?? Doesn’t work that way with two woman. You have such little faith in your fellow human beings. I have no doubt that any marine involved in combat whether they be gay or straight would do their job well. There are several decorated gay men serving in our armed forces. You know that the marine in question is honorable how? Oh, and Obamacare has not been deemed unconstitutional – that is in the supreme court now. So, I agree with having those making statements having to prove them. You can start by proving that President violated the constitution with the Affordable Health Act, and you cannot do that. Nor can you prove that our President is a wanna be dictator or a Kenyan warlord. Listening to some people here makes me even prouder of and of makes me stand even taller with the President, that he had/has the strength to run for office and serve our country when there are nut jobs buying into hideous lies and threatening him.Sgt. Stein was not disciplined because he disagreed with the policy of the President. He was disciplined because he broke the rules. It is very hard to separate Sgt. Stein’s comments from his position in the military when his facebook page is titled “The Armed Forces Tea Party”.He should have left the Armed Services part off of it as well as his webpage if he wants to claim that it has nothing to do with his position in the Marines. It seems as thought he thinks people will pay more attention to his position if it is coming from a Sgt in the Armed Forces, and that is against the rules.

      • John Wilch (TSgt, USAF Ret.)

        Sir(?) I take it from your statement that you are of the give-me crowd. Also i take it that you have never been in the Military and like to call those that are Honorable and Brave who do serve their country by putting on the uniform and fighting for those rights that you say that are your right.

        Well, Sir(?) if you ain’t been there shut your mouth!

        US Combat Veteran and damn proud to have served.

  • jopa

    Freedom Fighter: Above you stated your admiration for men with large testicles, what are you trying to tell us? That you are coming out of the closet or that you spent a lot of time in the base showers.

    • JeffH

      jopa, you’re one sick puppy. You’re lying again! You obviously have zero ability to comprhend what FF said and you’re a slanderous liar to boot! There ain’t a gutter deep enough for you.

  • til scott

    It is just fine to enlist and obey all of those orders given but it is not Ok to have your own opinion unless you keep it to yoursef. This is still the United States of America and we have a right to speak freely….or do our military leaders all submit to brainwashing in order that their own opiions must be siphoned away and they they must order those in their respective command to have no opinions…..just enlist, train, kill or be killed and that’s it !!

    No wonder we cannot win any wars !! Our military leaders are totally clueless.tilscott

    • jim

      lets not forget that all Marine Corps Recruiters were given a directive to attend a gay rights parade IN UNIFORM. We don’t care what someone does sexually with someone as long as its not shoved down our throats.and is done in private.

  • ChuckL

    Does anyone remember Lt. Col. Terrence Lakin.

    Lt. Col. Lakin refused an assignment for the express purpose of forcing Obama to prove his legitimacy. Lt. Col. Lakin was refused by the Army JAG the constitutional right to force evidence to be presented that could have exonerated him. This is a violation of the Sixth Amendment of the Constitution.

    The way this is going with the higher powers of the military reinterpreting their oath of office to be an oath of support for the person occupying the office of President instead of “Support and Defence” of the Constitution.

    I pray that I am wrong, but this looks to me like a preparation for the military to support the dictator in chief and fire on the citizens of this country as is being done in countries in the middle East and in Asia.

    • Neil Swan

      The way I remember this. He was a doctor who refused to help save lives because he didn’t think Obama should be president. He certainly should have been punished. He was just looking for an excuse not to do his job and help save lives.


  • Bellagram

    John Wilch (TSgt, USAF Ret.) says:
    March 23, 2012 at 9:44 pm
    Sir(?) I take it from your statement that you are of the give-me crowd. Also i take it that you have never been in the Military and like to call those that are Honorable and Brave who do serve their country by putting on the uniform and fighting for those rights that you say that are your right.

    Well, Sir(?) if you ain’t been there shut your mouth!

    US Combat Veteran and damn proud to have served.

    Hmmm – am assuming (which is never a good thing) that because your post was right below mine that you were directing it at me? Not sure though since 1) I am not a Sir – would have thought the *gram* part of my screen name would make that obvious, but no problem, and 2) I am not seeing what in my post gave you the impression that I am a *give-me* person (am more a *give-to* person. Also do not know why you would think that I am not a big supporter of our brave military. I sent five sons to the service – two served in the first Gulf War, but only one came back. So, no – I have not been to war. I raised 7 kids and worked both in the home and outside the home and retired a couple of years ago. So, John Wilch (TSgt. USAF Ret.) my sons fought for my rights and I raised those brave honorable boys if you have not sent a son to war who did not return alive then you shut your mouth..

    • Deerinwater

      Good for you Bellagram!
      I’d say, you gave more then your share and have earned the right to be heard where they like it or not.

      John Wilch (TSgt, USAF Ret.) seems to have forgot where he came from, who he is defending and who’s pulling cloths on his back and feeding his family and who is still sending him checks every month.

    • John Wilch (TSgt, USAF Ret.)

      Sorry about calling you a sir but from your screen name I couldn’t be sure. Also I am sorry that you lost one of your children.

      Now, to the main point, as to you saying you’re more of a ‘give-to’ person who’s money do you want to give: the rich person? Well, as to that who do you think provides the job, it sure is the Government which under BHO is trying to regulate to death or even take over?

      • Bellagram

        Bellagram = Bella’s gramma – not important though. And I appreciate your condolences. Actually, I give my own money. I give to my Church and to my Government. Seems to me that the richer folk have been given a lot of tax breaks, ( I know that I have been given more than my share ) and I do not see them making many jobs. Among the teacher’s, police force, firemen, road crews, many construction workers, and even the military – I’d say that the Government has provided a bunch of jobs, not to mention every single member of congress.I think that there is room for both (private and public), and that both are needed, and that it is asinine to argue about which jobs are better or needed more. I did not have a lot of say as to where my tax dollars went, except at the voting booth. I wanted and still want them to go to those in need – those that Christ called the least of these – and I sure did/do not want my money to go to any more wars. Granted, my taxes are different now – they now come from investments, property, and interest – but I would be more than willing to give even more.

        Regulation is a funny thing. A lot of people say that they suffocate jobs, but let one of their own be injured (or God forbid) killed because something was not regulated that should have been, and all hell breaks loose over it not being regulated. Would be great if businesses policed themselves, but it has been shown that the profit is more important and they just do not do it (police themselves).

        I think what confuses me the most (or at least a lot), is why the assumptions about me (and others). I mean, obviously I am a liberal and a Democrat, so for some reason I do not respect the military, I am a taker (or a give-me-er), that I apparently do not have a lot of money, and some (not Mr. Wilch), think I am not a Christian (I am Catholic btw, as if you couldn’t figure that out by my birthing 7 kids). The only stereotype that fits is that I do think the wealthy should pay more in taxes, and I am willing to do that.

    • John Gregory

      Losing a son in battle for, what can be for all manner of things, is contrary to how we grow up to understand things. I read your post below this one. I’m new here, so I don’t understand all how it works. I was a Medic IV and went out with my platoon in The Gulf – where, I cannot say. We’d lost some folks – no comm – and hadda find ‘em quick. DODOPSCID.(and they weren’t gonna even tell us that). Penetration needed to be stealthy and quick. We were the Team Up. Deep inside, we couldn’t always use normal transport – and though we were trained – repelling down ropes from a helicopter was not gonna happen. Going spot to spot in the daytime – resting – I read the Living Bible – Catholic Edition. Mom had gotten me a lightweight book to go with me. Complex found – we dispersed waiting to recon at night. I was of course at the comcenter with main communications and the Major. Counted and with layout – set-up for dawn. My nickname was “Blondie”. Before dawn – the Hammers of Hell came upon Earth. All naked, led by a teenaged boy, but armed – a team launched from the building to our right and 2 RPG’s shot into the Iraqi command. Suppressing fire went in – 5-7l men went to the lock-up – a team of 2 men and 2 women went to the motor garage. We watched wondering how to help escape and protect. Foreign women and children weren’t targeted by that team. Major called out orders – our Team flew into action careful to let these other’s know we were on their side and there to help. I had my bags ready, instruments, bandages, gauze, patches, injections, tape, packs, IV’s, bags, – all manner of aid ready to pull out on the moment. We’d barely connected when the enemy barracks emptied of soldiers. We took over on the offense. Where the other’s were headed seemed to be the garage. Suddenly the doors blew off and out came a 6 wheeler and an old tracked truck. They were all in there. Still naked some of them and a woman was leading them. I saw her use a K-bar – a knife – on one enemy and she knew how. Tearing off, we haled them waving arms and calling out. They didn’t seem to want to stop. They did just as we came under fire from 2 towers and the top of the lock-up. Throwing themselves in the ditch – fire was returned as I went to do my work. One was hit and fell. I called after the lou, and fire went out as I scrambled out, flipped ‘em on my back and scrambling back on all 4rs threw myself and her over the side to the ditch. Clean bullet – no sweat. Naked, malnourished, obviously raped repeatedly with bruises and cuts all over her she just wanted to have her gun. Two of her team came up – males – sores and open oozing cuts on ankles and wrists – bleeding from their scrotums – they cared about her. Only her. One held a gun to my head and told me to “save her”. I was calming him down – and noticed the incoming was intensifying. Sgt. next to me was talking and then stopped. I looked up – his head was gone. A thin mist of blood and skin like a turkey’s behind was all that was left. Seen worse. Finished up the sutures and showing her what I was injecting – she acquiesced when she saw it was antibiotics. In any event – this Team went in – got what they came for (whatever that was) – and became surrounded. We went in to rescue and protect. “Bring ‘em Back” was our orders,

      When I was ordered to aid and abet the enemy with comfort and supplies – by order of the President – what would’ve happened when I refused? I’d just seen the enemy KILL – in horrendous ways – fellow soldiers. Seen what they’d done to a woman and 5 men in captivity. 3 other females were dead from what this one survived from. I wasn’t a doctor – I never took the Hippocratic Oath. Question an Order that – at the time – I thought was INSANE!? From the C in C? Stood aside and refused to do it? I KNOW what would’ve happened on this Mission. Secondary to theirs. Time was of the essence. Securing what these folks had was why we were there. What they had was none of my need to know. Obviously trained, obviously needing to get what they had back to base was of the highest importance. But, if I thought my orders were unwarranted and unreasonable – right wrong or indifferent – the Mission would’ve been completed with or WITHOUT me.

      That’s the difference you understand between philosophical talk and being on the firing line. I didn’t hesitate – I saw to the wounds and was ready to go in 2 minutes. Greater things than ourselves are there. There is NO CONSTITUTION on line. No one to stick up for 6th Amendments or 1st Amendments or what have you. I don’t know the particulars of your son’s demise – but I trust it wasn’t because some Sergeant suddenly got it in his head to wrap themselves in the Constitution and saunter down Main Street waving a flag. I’ve killed and used my training in many many ways – but I doubt the President – whoever it is – will be calling me in some sand ditch to seek my ethical or moral assistance with one of his decisions. Think soldiers on the ready line were gonna chat up Truman about Hiroshima or Nagasaki? That could’ve been seen as unsupportable and wacked out by those beneath him in command. If Marine Sergeant Stein went on the Enola Gay to pull the lever – what would he do? Well, you can see the dichotomy there. Whether then or now – duty bound trumps the Constitution when engaged to complete one’s mission. If the good Sergeant no longer feels he can complete them in the future for this particular President – the I pity the poor corps who get’s him to watch their backs. PTSD? Or someone like the Kock’s supporting his trumpeting of his present considerations? No matter – his name is known – and Obama or whomever – no one likes playing on a team by themselves. The Oath is taken. If one desires to take a different one? Go then. I pray, so soon after the Triduum, whether Jesus washed Judas’s feet knowing he was His betrayer – I pray no other son of yours is so “kissed”.

  • Dave Bishop

    If I remember correctly, Mr. Obama’s campaign had men in uniform joining him in a demonstration of solidarity. Kind of like the Pied Piper of Hamlin…

    One can only hope that sanity will reign and we will get a new face in the White House, although the one I want to see is not even in the race. Why can’t the Republican heirarchy choose someone outside the good ole boy’s network? It takes someone with honesty, integrity, class, intelligence, and a faith in the Constitution of the United States. Of course, that would lessen the likelihood of the politicians bellying up to the porkbarrel.

    The five different qualifications would eliminate more than it could find qualifiers.

  • Obamanator

    CJ and JeffH: Deerinwater made his case when he calls his opposition “simpleton” and even spelled it correctly. Everyone knows name calling trumps truth, facts and logic.

    • recce1

      Excellent point. Deerinwater has made a number of ad hominem attacks on those who disagree with his “superior” knowledge and wisdom, or lack of it.

      At least in his favor from his comments is that he did serve our country in combat. This disabled retired veteran will never disparage a man or woman for that.

      I just wish he understood the UCMJ, Geneva Accords, Nuremberg Trials, and the Constitution better and how they interrelate.

    • Deerinwater

      Well, fine! I’ve made my position clear. ~ If some Jar head E5 wants to offer up some tea party opposition, let the games being. JAG will get to the bottom of the matter and then it will be concluded.

      If you want to support this claim of a constitution conflict and take it to the wall, fine !

      But you will not win and only fluster yourself in the process.

      I was only in the service for two intense years, ~ I managed to acclimate quite well to it, being the first born of four sons to a WWII cadre drill instructor I was offered E6 on my separation. I was groomed for the army starting at the age of 4. I had a father that would colleyflower your ears for placing your hand on your hip while he spoke to you. I knew what being a soldier was all about before I volunteered for the draft. I was a proficient solider and understood my position, knew my purpose at all times, there were no questions in my mind.

      Soldiers start out with no rights and slowly earn them, but if you somehow think you’ve got something to show the military establishment, something they not considered before, you are just not very bright about military life.

      Now if you don’t like this arrangement, you can article 14 out or cry to your mommy about your mistreatment and see if she got some pull with your congressman. A congressman can get your contract with the military dissolved if he elects to do so.

      • recce1

        I commend you on serving this country, a country for which I’m truly concerned about as to its future as a democratic Republic under the rule of constitutional law. If in any way it has seemed that I showed disrespect towards a fellow soldier, I apologize.

        However, I find it unfortunate that you never realized that as a serviceman you never gave up your constitutional rights. There’s a grave difference between constitutional rights that every American has according to the Constitution which the government can’t take away without first convicting that person of a crime and the freedoms and privileges one earns in the service.

        That difference may father, a colonel in the Army who was offered a star if he rejoined the service, taught me before I followed in making the military my career. I served 20 years in the Air Force as a reconnaissance, intelligence, emergency actions, and air operations staff officer with supervisory responsibilities and had occasions where I informed enlisted men of their rights as a serviceman.

        I retired as a major as I got into trouble for overriding an aircraft commander, so I know the consequences of opposing someone in authority over you, but in doing so I save the lives of over thirty men. Nevertheless, I was in my legal and moral rights to do so even though the “system’ refused to realize that.

        So I’ll never claim that those we put in harm’s way are to be denied the rights they’re defending. It would be an anathema to me to think our country would ever take such a position.

        Yet I understand the need for restrictions on some freedoms in order to maintain discipline and unity within units. The only violation that I’ve heard mentioned about Sgt. Stein is that he may have used government computers to post on his blog. In as much as his so-called inflammatory statement was that he would disobey any “unconstitutional” orders given by the president, I see no need for serious punishment such as a less than honorable discharge. In my command positions the very worst I would have given someone like Sgt. Stein would have been an Article 15 based on what is known.

        Again, thank you for your service to our country. May we see reasoned and respectful support by all Americans for that “shining city upon a hill whose beacon of light guides freedom-loving people everywhere” thru a dedication to the concepts the Founders established for the benefit of all Americans.

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  • Roger W. Bedor

    Roger W. Bedor Littleton, N.H. I’m just an old 69 yr old retired over the road truck driver, so don’t suppose I’m qualified to express my opinion on this Marine’s dilemma, however, I can’t see what all the stink is all about. All he has done is exercise one of our basic rights as an American. Where does the military or our poor excuse of a leader and his associates come off criticizing this Marine when those in Washington have ridiculed our Constitution by saying that is outdated and meaningless. They are at the top of the ladder and supposed to, by oath, support the Constitution of the United States. Give me a break!!

    • Deerinwater

      Mr. Bedor, I guess it’s safe to say, it’s not uncommon to question leadership. But to do so, you better have your house in order and your ducks in a row.

      These events have a process to go through. That will happen and it will be final for this event.

      It could be seen any way you wish to see it, a good day for the snake is a bad day for the frog.

      • recce1

        That is the point! If one is going to challenge an order or a superior they had best make sure they’re right legally or be prepared to suffer the consequences. I know, I save over 30 people on a reconnaissance aircraft by countermanding an aircraft commander but took a severe career hit.

        Of course there’s also the concept that discretion is the better part of valor. As Kenny Rogers said, “You got to know when to hold ‘em, know when to fold ‘em, Know when to walk away and know when to run.”

  • FreedomFighter

    So why didnt Major Hasad, whom killed all those people on base, who also was involved in JIHAD political action, and many others spewing that Islamic BS not being discharged also?

    Laus Do
    Semper Fi

    • recce1

      Hasad was not discharged because of two reasons. First, he did not challenge the political leadership. Secondly, he was part of a favored minority class in a government that’s obsessed with political correctness and affirmative action even it it means a breach in security or a failure of competence.

      However, it was recommended that Hasad not be promoted and even released from the Army before his Islamic murderous ramplage. Now he’ll face a dishonorable discharge for his act of “workplace violence.”

  • Alex Frazier

    A lot of you folks on this thread really freakin’ scare me. Speaking out against the violation of our Constitution is the duty of a soldier. They are sworn to protect it. They are sworn to protect our country from domestic enemies.

    Endorsing a political position is completely different from condemning the blatant disregard for the supreme law of the land. Not even the president is above the law in that regard.

    If this soldier is exercising his first amendment right to speak freely, is not endorsing a political position, and is trying to defend the Constitution of the United States of America, then he is right, he is justified, and he is doing his duty. If there are laws or guidelines prohibiting his actions, then they are unConstitutional.

    The fact that so many of you think he did wrong shows just how far the mentality of our nation has degraded. May God help our children and grandchildren. I see their future falling apart before my eyes.

    • Deerinwater

      “Alex says;
      A lot of you folks on this thread really freakin’ scare me. Speaking out against the violation of our Constitution is the duty of a soldier. They are sworn to protect it

      Sgt. Gary Stein, says;
      “If I am guilty of anything it would be that I am American, a freedom loving Conservative, hell bent on defending the constitution and preserving Americas greatness. I am no more the Leader of the Armed Forces Tea Party than any other of 18,000 members are. I just happen to be normal guy who started a facebook page and who hold the Tea Party values close my heart and believes the Tea Party can enact real change in this county. We are all leaders in the Tea Party!”

      simian pete says:
      The screwy voters put President Obama in office. Sgt. Stein puts his life on the line for all those screwy, effin retarded voters …

      Roger W. Bedor says:
      They are at the top of the ladder and supposed to, by oath, support the Constitution of the United States. Give me a break!!

      ODave Bishop says:
      we can only hope that sanity will reign and we will get a new face in the White House, although the one I want to see is not even in the race.

      Here’s the best one so far!

      recce1 says:
      So I believe my point still stands. It all depends on whose ox is gored. Obama has used men and women in uniform as backdrops to push certain political agendas. But that’s Obama’s indiscretion, not theirs.

      Not one single constitutional infraction offered in the original Sam Rolley thread posting or the 375 posting that followed.

      Bring forward these claims of Constitutional violations by this president, ~I would think after 376 posting someone might at least address the thread topic and offer up one.

      Now that’s what is really scary Alex Fraizer. This is no more then a homophobic Lynch Mob hiding behind claims of being American patriots doing their sworn duty. They might as well be wearing a sheet with two eye holes and caring a burning cross.

      It’s not that difficult to see beyond this disingenuous ruse to hide their racial bias, so it certainly won’t stand up in any court in the land except maybe Alabama, Arizona or South Carolina

  • JeffH

    Oath Keepers Assisting in Legal Defense of Marine Sgt. Gary Stein, Founder of Armed Forces Tea Party

    On March 19, 2012, The Military Times’ “MARINE TIMES BATTLE RATTLE” ran a preview of their upcoming issue of March 26, which features an article named: “Anti-Obama Marines”, centered on Sgt. Gary Stein and his infamous “Facebook” page. Seems Sgt. Stein is not alone in his sentiments. Apparently, a lot of Marines are not satisfied with President Obama. U.S. Military personnel are not by law required to love any sitting President.

    They said something like this –

    “Sgt. Gary Stein might be saying things about President Obama that a lot of Marines think, but some are saying he took it too far.

    “Stein has come under fire for stating on “Facebook” that he wouldn’t follow certain orders given by his commander in chief. And Marines say Stein’s not alone in his disapproval. More anti-Obama talk is being heard in the workplace and new Military Times poll data shows declining approval among military service members for the president’s job as commander in chief.”

    • Deerinwater

      “And Marines say Stein’s not alone in his disapproval. More anti-Obama talk is being heard in the workplace and new Military Times poll data shows declining approval among military service members for the president’s job as commander in chief.”

      Well okay, can they be like other’s that feel the same way and just not vote for him?

      Surly they don’t expect more consideration then been entitle to others.

      • JeffH

        “More anti-Obama talk is being heard in the workplace and new Military Times poll data shows declining approval among military service members for the president’s job as commander in chief.”

        Trust is a must or your game is a bust!

      • Deerinwater

        “Trust is a must or your game is a bust!”

        True! perhaps, but a few disgruntled soldier does not a military make, nor do I see any worthy military accomplishments under “W’s’ administration. Clearly a long term bust due to poor planing, poor funding, unclear objectives, no exit plan, and in general poor leadership while no fault of the rank & file solider. Why should they “trust?” ~ all the soldiers I have known , trust it it being a “B1tch!” and if it’s anything less, so be it. Doing the difficult quickly and the impossible only taking longer.

        Most of our lower ranking soldiers are serving in the military because of the scarcity in employment opportunities in 06 to present, many joined to simple insure their families and afford their families the most merger basics that entry level soldiering provides. Not exactly the cream of the crop picking as far a soldiering goes. No fire in the belly for a good fight and a worthy opponent.

        In the history of modern warfare, I’ve never seen such waste in human resources, material or time as under “W’s” administration. Now that was a serious joke, if there ever was one.

        And the too, Everyone feeling good about what is happening and being popular are matters any Commander & Chief has small luxury and little time for.

        When you consider, you can’t run a Bingo Hall with chapping somebody’s a$$ in the process, maybe someone needs to get “real” about today’s affairs.

        You want the job ??? apply for it! Then you can run it your way.

        ALL of This, is a response to openly permitting Gay’s in the military and has little to do with the US Constitution. While I may not approve as well, I’m acutely aware of the deception in progress and the issues at hand.

        But for everyone’s information,

        There has been “Fairy’s” in highest of places since America’s first beginnings with the Continental Army. Just because many of you were completely oblivious and it’s taken them 240 some years later in finding it out only makes only makes them appear even more foolish as a few rednecks are forced to come to grips with the world they have been living in their whole life.

        I give you one name only, and you do your own research
        Friedrich Wilhelm Augustus von Steuben
        [The name he was primarily known in America by]
        Friedrich Wilhelm Ludolf Gerhard Augustin von Steuben
        [The name he was baptized with]
        Friedrich Wilhelm August Heinrich Ferdinand
        [The name he changed to]

        These soldiers need to dismiss themselves from duty or levee these alleged constitutional infractions charges and be willing to defend their position.

        If they can’t change their mind about this, we can change their profession. It’s actually a very simple thing to do.

      • JeffH

        “can’t see the forest for the trees”

      • JeffH

        Hunter: Marine should not be punished for anti-Obama Facebook posts
        By Jeremy Herb – 03/23/12 04:21 PM ET

        A Marine who said he would not follow an unlawful order from President Obama should not be dismissed, Rep. Duncan Hunter (R-Calif.) said Friday.
        On Stein’s Facebook page, which he founded in 2010, he calls Obama a “domestic enemy,” and he suggested that Defense Secretary Leon Panetta could be tried for treason for saying the Obama administration could declare war without congressional approval.

        The comment that initiated the disciplinary proceedings was Stein’s statement that he would not follow an unlawful order, which he made discussing the United States turning over troops to NATO to be tried for the burning of Qurans in Afghanistan.
        Stein posted a statement on his Facebook page Wednesday that said the allegations were “drummed up” against him to be used as an example.

        “I swore an oath to obey the orders of the President. … But those orders must be lawful,” Stein wrote. “It is the duty of each and every service members to know the difference between an unlawful and lawful order is.”

      • Deerinwater

        “he calls Obama a “domestic enemy,” and he suggested that Defense Secretary Leon Panetta could be tried for treason for saying the Obama administration could declare war without congressional approval.”

        LOL! Okay, ~ we have the claim, we have the soldier that made the claim, we have the conflict that it offers military leadership, we have the Tea Party to thank for all the propaganda that has launched Gary Stien crusade against a sitting President.

        The willingness of Tea Party activist to support Sgt. Gary Stein is understandable as he’s been overwhelmed with misguided Tea Party ideas in that he’s clearly picked up your banner and willing to lead the charge in Marine Corp fashion and flare.

        What might Tea Party activist feel about Sgt. Gary Stein final demise? A twisted victory of some sorts that’s not quite clear.

        The only precedence to come out of it that I see is, “Don’t try to take the mask off of the Lone Ranger” is still sound council as ever.

        • recce1

          I very much oppose much, if not most. of Mr. Obama’s policies and his fabian socialist agenda. However, I’m with you on objecting to those who claim that Panetta or Obama would be guilty of treason for going to war without congressional approval or because of a number of other policies.

          The Constitution is quite specific on its definition of treason, saying that, “Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort.” If Obama were to go to war without congressional approval he could, and should, be impeached for usurping the authority of Congress, unless for some reason the 1973 War Powers Resolution Act applied. The latter didn’t apply with regard to Libya and Mr. Obama didn’t consult anyone in Congress let alone get approval. His reasons might have been good but his actions were unconstitutional. However, the same could be said that Bush violated the Constitution in invading Iraq and Afghanistan. Actually, the last president to adhere to a strict interpretation of the Constitution on the matter was FDR.

          That’s why I claim to hold to an exegesis interpretation of the Constitution rather than an eisegesis interpretation. It’s not a matter of self righteousness as you accuse me of, but standing with those who founded this country and who wrote the Constitution. I believe that if we believe that since there’re no “absolutes” then that justifies interpreting things, being they the Constitution, the Bible, or the Healthcare Act, as we see fit is wrong. It becomes the rule of the mob rather than the rule of law. So I reject the conventional interpretation of the idea that all things are relative.

          By the way, God didn’t write the Constitution, wise men of faith did. However, if you freeze jello almost to a solid you can nail it to a tree. Do you have a tree in mind fellow patriot and member of the loyal opposition?

      • JeffH

        “he’s been overwhelmed with misguided(???)Tea Party ideas”

        You still can’t see the forest for the trees

        • Deerinwater

          Well, clean up some of your IDEAS Jeff if you expect them to be purchased as a single “package”!

          I see both the forest and the trees and the shadows between the leaves. Your Tea Party entertains some real stinker of some ideas along with some good ones.

          I’m not buying some few great ideas with all your trash. Clean it up! 86 this Christian agenda to encroach government, ~ Get rid of your homophobia, Clear your mind of you racial bias, remove this male sexist predisposition and attempt to offer a gender neutral overview of laws and how they apply to all citizens.

          Like that could be possible for you to do! The only thing that prevents you, is you.

      • Steve E

        JeffH, If you think Limited Government and Free markets is a misguided idea. You need some more education other the what the public schools taught you.

      • JeffH

        Steve E says “JeffH, If you think . You need some more education other the what the public schools taught you.”

        SteveE, just how did you come to the conclusion that I think “Limited Government and Free markets is a misguided idea”?

        Your comment is obviously misguided and perhaps it is you who should re-read and try to comprehend my comments.

        FYI, I’m a grassroots Tea Party supporter and not remotely close to anything “liberal”.

      • JeffH

        Steve E, FYI – your comment should have been directed at the long winded Jabberwocky Deerinwater…you would need to read the entire exchange and take particular notice of my responses, quotes, quotations and question marks to better understand.

      • JeffH

        The Jabberwocky says:
        March 29, 2012 at 12:24 pm

        “Well, clean up some of your IDEAS Jeff if you expect them to be purchased as a single “package”!

        I see both the forest and the trees and the shadows between the leaves. Your Tea Party entertains some real stinker of some ideas along with some good ones.

        I’m not buying some few great ideas with all your trash. Clean it up! 86 this Christian agenda to encroach government, ~ Get rid of your homophobia, Clear your mind of you racial bias, remove this male sexist predisposition and attempt to offer a gender neutral overview of laws and how they apply to all citizens.

        Like that could be possible for you to do! The only thing that prevents you, is you”
        Christian agenda to encroach government? Homophobia? Racial Bias? Sexist predisposition?

        Not only are you a liar, deer bob, you have just been awarded a 100% membership in the Progressive Delusional Lunatic Fringe club. Congratulations! Fine Job!

        You’re no different than flashy, Alex, denisso, smilee or any other lunatic liberal for that matter. As a matter of fact, after this last post of yours, you’ve now joined the ranks of jopa and eddie. I’ve had mu suspitions but I say thank you for confirming them… :)

        • Deerinwater

          If you don’t approve of the image that the Tea Party has created and reflected in both word & deed by it’s rank and file over the last several years Jeff. It’s for you to do something about, there is little that I can do about it Jeff.

          This is the prevailing image the the tea party as wasted several years to create while being attached to messages of smaller and less intrusive government, less spending, fiscal restraint and defenders of the Constitution as it was originally written yet cheery picking the amendments they are willing to accept, and demonizing a sitting President with every other breath.

          Non-Tea Party people have not created this image Jeff, the Tea Party has.

          This president has lead, wielded power and been successful on many levels and opposition hates him for it. I understand your disbelief, I too am amazed. I wouldn’t expect you to embrace him on any level.

          I’m not suggesting that Obama is all that great as much as you are so BAD with these feeble and frivolous attacks.

          But keep your church out of my government, accept the fact nature makes mistakes and sexual origination is misdirected on occasions, that people of color often come from a different culture and it’s not skin-color that makes them different. Acknowledge that woman is the host of life and deserving more credit and consideration then you seem willing to offering her.


          Not a single act of unconstitutional behavior as been proved while rarely even been discussed but in the most vague hypocritical sense in over 350 postings.

          Cut to the chase Jeff, whats sticking in your craw? Cough it up, let’s hear it.

      • hattles

        So says the Jabberwocky…my heart pumps pee for thee.

        This buds for you, “not only are you a liar, deer bob, you have just been awarded a 100% membership in the Progressive Delusional Lunatic Fringe club. Congratulations! Fine Job!”

        • Deerinwater

          We were discussing thread related issues, don’t attempt to change the subject with childish personal attacks.

      • JeffH

        How stupid can I be says: “We were discussing thread related issues, don’t attempt to change the subject with childish personal attacks.”


        • Deerinwater

          Once again,I don’t believe that your attempts to degrade and label me are germane to the thread Jeff. But you sure are cleaver about it, calling me names that best fit yourself. You sly devil you.

          Let me help you Jeff, here is the centerpiece of the debate

          “The nine-year Marine veteran said he started the page to encourage fellow service members to exercise their free speech rights. Stein was first cautioned by his superiors at Camp Pendleton in 2010, after he launched the Facebook page and criticized Obama’s healthcare overhaul. He volunteered to take down the page while he reviewed the rules at the request of his superiors. Upon determining that he was not in violation of the rules, Stein relaunched the page.
          Last week, in response to a post in which Stein said he would refuse to follow unlawful orders from the President, Stein’s superiors barred him from using social media sites on government computers.”

          Where I’m a hypocrite or not, doesn’t have anything to to do with it.

          • recce1

            Now that’s correct. The issue is not whether or not military personnel have rights but whether they’re allowed to use government equipment or resources to express them. The correct answer is no, they can’t.

            I’m a champion of all Americans’ rights, but there’s a time and place to express them. Active duty military people accept certain limitations in order to maintain good order and discipline, essential for an effective military force.

            Now if we could just convince our politicians to maintain good order and discipline amongst themselves.

      • JeffH

        Deer bob says “Once again,I don’t believe that your attempts to degrade and label me are germane to the thread Jeff. But you sure are cleaver about it, calling me names that best fit yourself. You sly devil you.”

        Not clever at all, you picked the fight, not I…you have earned it and can keep the pride of ownership and the accalades all for yourself…in short, you are a long winded hypocrit and deservedly so. To say otherwise would be disingenuous on my part.

        I care not about your inflated “opinion”, and let’s be honest about it, that is all it is. That your long winded stories and folklore have become boorish and is something that I’ve come to “take like a grain of salt”. That I choose not to play your game by your rules is and always will be my choice.

        Feel free to kick the sand in another direction, afterall, it’s still a free country. I’ll tend to my cows and you ‘tend to yours.

        • Deerinwater

          Oh Jeff! Please! don’t lay this at my door step and have the gall to claim it as some personal fight. I only pulled back the curtain and expose the weak underbelly of the Tea Party. I never spoke your name until you showed up launched personal insults and slighting innuendos, You drew first blood Jeff. Attack my message not me. I can’t permit you to push me about.

          My focus is on the issues at hand and whatever support this defiant GI is getting from anyone, which happen to be proponents of the Tea Party and Tea Party activities. That fact makes the Tea party fair game in this discussion and open to review, judgement and speculation.

          LOL ~ what you call me? a jabberwonkey? ~ well that’s innocent enough, you just got a flesh wound in the deal. It’ll grow over and won’t leave a mark. promise.

          It was you Jeff that invited yourself to this dance, don’t be looking around for someone else to blame.

          Counter my claims as I counter yours. I ‘m going to make you stronger where you like it or not. This Tea Party of your needs some serious guidance and focus. This Christian crusader image of stomping mud holes in sinners,, infidels image and general unGodly~ is not going to carry the day.

          Attacking young American women voters as they exercise their rights to speak on issues that affect them and their sisters by calling them whores , slut and prostitutes ~ is not going to carry the day.

          You will someday appreciate me but for now you hate me ~ That’s good! you are suppose too!

          Are you listening to George Zimmerman father tonight? That man and his son have been programmed by your Tea Party and Russ. All they see is HATE ! people of color deserving all they can dish out.

          Before this is over, Zimmerman’s father is going to repeat every word he has heard from the right wing political advocates unless his boy’s attorney can find him and get him to shut his mouth.

      • JeffH

        Fresh outa’ cryin’ towells, sorry! Hypocrit!

        • Deerinwater

          Okay you won Jeff ~ I can’t endure the thought of being called another name by you . The waiting , the unknown of when and what it might be is just too much to bear.

          You win, Cu hoy . I agree to whatever you say, just stop.

          • Steve E

            Man! Deerinwater, You should really get an acting job in soap operas, Seriously. That’s a compliment.

          • Deerinwater

            hehe! ho ~ Whatever it takes to get Jeff to quite embarrassing himself, I was feeling sorry for him if that was the only attack that he could mount.

            I crown thee Sir Jeffery, King of the name callers.

            My attack on the tea party stirred him and offended his senses but rather then attacking the message, he attacks the messenger, with NAUGHTY NAMES. Too funny.

            So my message goes unanswered. The reason being, it would be hard and long to do. Jeff does not like long and hard, preferring to throw his stone, then run and hide behind something “large” and shout out expletives.

            The thing is, I like Jeff, he is the reason that I am here. There is some good people and some seriously worthy ideas to be found in the Tea party. But this movement as allowed their most primitive types to brand them in an most unflattering way.

            This anti- education, anti-government, anti-social, anti- woman, anti- world affairs,anti- anything that is not straight out of Mayberry is little more then a sickness that does spread among select individuals that have similar backgrounds, perpetuity and dispossession.

            Education does not come in a bottle, you must want it and be willing to work hard for it. It’s easy to understand why some would scoff at education while their words and actions validate it’s lacking. What do you do with such people? You work with them, help them while they fight your efforts like a wounded beast,kicking and biting.

            Few people like “change” but most people don’t “fear” it. We known life is not fair, some of us accept this earlier then others.

      • JeffH

        “It seems very pretty,” she said when she had finished it, “but it’s rather hard to understand!” (You see she didn’t like to confess even to herself, that she couldn’t make it out at all.) “Somehow it seems to fill my head with ideas–only I don’t exactly know what they are! However, somebody killed something: that’s clear, at any rate—”

        And…you still can’t see the forrest for the trees…

      • JeffH

        …this is my opinion…Jabberwocky beautifully skates the thin edge of being understood and being nonsense.

      • JeffH

        Sorry deer bob, if you get to the beginning of our little exchange you’ll see that it was YOU who drew first blood…with your childish ad hominems attacks. Your correct though…I’m right…and your a liberal.

    • Steve E

      You are right, I meant to direct it to Deerinwater.

      • JeffH

        For God & Country :)

      • Deerinwater

        ” If you think Limited Government and Free markets is a misguided idea.”

        Not at all, that’s the worthy planks in the Tea party platform that I could embrace if I didn’t have to accept all the many side issues.

        I retain to right to like you but I don’t give a damn about your dog. If we can’t be friends because of your dog, so be it.

  • Martin mcferren { USN RET}

    BT2 USN RET SAYS Well i’ve heard it all 22 years navy .carter was a boob we could’nt get out of the bay we had nothing to do drills or train or repair ships, carter gutted clear down to the deck plates, .replacements parts and men, men ha ha that is a load of crap every jail bird they could find we got . Then Reagan WE GOT PARTS,NEW SHIPS, BETTER PAY, drug tests for the pot heads, DO WHAT YOU WILL ? DON’T GET ME KILLED BECAUSE YOUR HIGH,So hear we are 2012 you make waves someone is going to put a round in your little boat you are sitting in .STEIN’S , HE WAS RIGHT AND HE WAS WRONG ? DEPENDS ON WHO IS YOUR BOSS THE REAL WORLD OR THE MILITARY,It is not the right way or the wrong way, It is the military way ? And a first day boot learns that real fast, I may have hated the man in the place of power but was taught to respect the office ,Rank or position . oh i said my peace threw the years. got in some jams , and today we don’t have anyone to say LEAD. GET BEHIND ,OR GET OUT OF THE WAY.Us vets see the world as brothers ,Should have each others back and always in the fight , We see what is wrong and we can do little,as we see the the none vets not able to understand duty,honer ,country,GOD. real hope and justice . He will have to take what comes,We support him and wish and pray for the best , We take the heat in this nations wars and unspeakable things we saw or did ,loss of budys then and now ,and we can not speak to things we see .IN or out of uniform ,I know of some of this Was told once i could not go to church in uniform off base WHY? because it violated the separation of church and state . and off base i was representing the U S military ? I got it fixed but the officer was the new Navy as he put it ,even the late 80′s it was starting ,GOD help us all,And keep your powder dry and your head down ,And vote.

  • Deerinwater

    Impressive explanation recce1, I just loved it!

    recce1 says:
    March 28, 2012 at 8:01 am
    Alexm unfortunately many, if not most, liberal Democrats don’t believe in supporting and defending the Constitution as it was written and intended. Rather than using an exegesis approach to interpreting the Constitution, they use an eisegesis approach.”

    To summarize your posting, you’d prefer your Attorneys argument over another and would really like it if opposition didn’t even have an attorney!

    All Things rigid as stone can not endure the ravages of time. And your are very correct , the Constitution is seen as a living document, but this is not a current event or anything new.

    This refusal and resistance to change in an ever changing world brings forward many down sides you prefer to ignore and elect to be blind too. Like a starting crank for a T model Ford, somethings simply outlive their need and importance. I had a friend in the used car business that took the bumper jack out of every car he sold, figuring their worth his retirement. Good New! He died before he retired!

    Yesterday is history, tomorrow a mystery and today is a “Present”
    and why it is call the “present”

    Elinor Roosevelt

    Necessity is the Mother of invention. Things change as necessity dictated, leaving us to argue about the necessity. If you are a frog on a Lilly pad, the snake is but an intruder and a threat. If you are the snake, the frog is lunch.

    • recce1

      Simply put, I believe in Constitutional exegesis, not eisegesis interpretation. I don’t expect you to understand or accept that.

      • Deerinwater

        “Simply put, I believe in Constitutional exegesis, not eisegesis interpretation. I don’t expect you to understand or accept that.”

        Well Sir, you are half right, I don’t accept it, which places us both on equal footing while you would suggest a sense of righteous in your favor, which I find equally troublesome and disturbing.

        There are no absolutes in the world of man while you suggest that there “is”, placing you in company of the Divine. Nice company no doubt.

        Armed with both of these tools in our little tool box, maybe we can nail jello to a tree.

      • recce1

        I’d rather be in the company of the Divine than with you.

      • Deerinwater

        LOL! You speak from the position so you might be.

        I enjoy your banter recce1, you and I could get a lot done if it was up to just the two of us.

        But ~ back to the thread, ~ For US armed forces soldier to make the claim that his highest commander is a domestic enemy to our nation presents the military with a unique set of problems.

        You can call this ball-zzy if you wish, I call it absurdity and insanely foolish. While I will admit, it will keep the attorney’s busy for a few hours and bring such matters front and center for due process.

        This is seeds broadcasted by the Tea Party attempting to take roof and grow. Some fell on fertile ground, Let’s hide and watch what happens next.

        • recce1

          His comment was foolish perhaps by not insanely so. I believe Mr. Obama is a clear and present danger to what’s left of this once democratic Republic under the rule of constitutional law and should be impeached forthwith.

          I can say that as a retired officer but It would be another matter if I were active duty. Criticizing publicly those in authority over you is risky and one has to be prepared for the consequences if they do so. Of course there’re circumstances where it’s necessary. But they’re very rare.

          As I mentioned, I overrode a decision of my pilot and it cost me further advancement in the Air Force. But at least I and over 40 others are still alive and a quarter billion dollar reconnaissance aircraft still exists. At least I didn’t get thrown in the brig.

          I might remind you younger folks of the crisis when Nixon decided to resign from the presidency. For a short while there was concern he might create a false crisis and retain power. A certain general when asked who was in control to prevent that stated that he was. It ended the general’s presidential ambitions but he was correct, and let on to more than he should have. There’re checks on even a president.

          • Deerinwater

            Hmm? Yes, one needs to know where their tail is at and navigate a room full of rocking chairs with ease and flare like a pretty house cat.

            I have a certain admiration for individuals that can wield power and get things done. Nixon, Lyndon, Reagan, Clinton and now Obama. Hmm, ? Yea, I know, he’s suppose to have not done anything. Okay, I’ll not tell. shhhhh!

            One of the many reasons I admire women so, I suppose. You choose your battles while not expecting to win them all. Some of them are just a ruse , an olive branch. willing to lose to be in a winning position. Like Health Care for instance, perfect example, the GOP is sitting in the position to own all the future woes of Health Care in this country “if” they take it away from Obama. As it stands today, it all Obama’s and the DNC’s.

            Awfully ‘large” of the GOP to do such a thing. Their argument, I’ve never completely understood, the DNC is asking (mandating) citizens to be responsible for their heath care and buy insurance. The GOP is saying people need to be self reliant but you can’t force people to buy insurance while in the same breath, pitching a b!tch about government give-aways and entitlement. So recce1 how do we get to that ‘place’ from here?

            I’d say, the need for health care should never have been predicated on employment to begin with. Government should have “never” started subsidized health care with incentives to employers. This single act alone created huge disparity and a calloused indifference by those that enjoyed these benefits towards those that do not.

            I think you can forget about impeaching the current President, however though your are most welcome to try.

            I don’t believe that you can bring forward enough pressure and resistance to even slow him down since he’s been forced to operate from an entrenched position from the offset of his tenure. There was no “Honeymoon” period for this”44th” President. Going into his 2nd term, he is heavily fortified especially his weaker points after countless attacks and onslaughts. lol! he’s dug in like a Louisiana tick at this point.

            Am I to assume that you are like most, believing that he just somehow “fell into the position”? A Manchurian Candidate, that some kind of fix was in? That he is “lacking” in mental capacity for the office? LOL! That he really hasn’t a clue what he is doing?

            There something to be said for being underestimated I suppose.

            I say 2016 would be a good focus point to breakout and launch these changes you’d like to see take place. You’ve got the time to develop an ambitious plan. maybe by then, this tea party will have separated the wheat from the chaff and offer us a clearer message and direction.

            4:40am maybe i can sleep now.

          • recce1

            I love your analogy about a cat navigating a room. I was a navigator; never got lost, just temporarily disoriented. I think I got grey hairs on my first trip across the Pacific, but that’s another story.

            The conservative position on health care is not that caring for others is a bad idea, but that the government mandating it is simply unconstitutional. If the SCOTUS rules that the government can use the Establishment, Commerce, Necessary & Proper, and Supremacy Clauses to say the government can mandate that individuals must buy a government favored product from government designated sellers, at a government set price, then the Bills of Rights and the concept of federalism are moribund.

            Mr. Obama is hardly an inerudite man and it’s a grave mistake to underestimate him. He knows exactly what he’s doing. After all, he taught constitutional law and was a lawyer. But from his childhood he was brought up as a socialist through to his mentors, associates, friends, professors, and handlers. He’s an acolyte of Saul Alinsky and of Cloward and Pivens. I certainly don’t believe he fell into the position of president. He was groomed for it by people on the Left. And I believe he’s a dedicated Fabian socialist with a disdain for the Constitution.

            In saying all that I also recognize that some conservative candidates and presidents were also groomed for high office with a certain worldview. I can’t imagine more than a handful of men to whom the presidency fell with their not seeking the office.

            There’s nothing wrong with either case of grooming. It’s just that I choose to interpret the Constitution in an exegesis manner and therefore reject the liberal/Leftist position. I simply believe in a democratic Republic under the rule of Constitutional law with a capitalist free market economy and true contract law. I believe that America was a great experiment that is now failing.

            Should Mr. Obama win this November, I believe he’ll be reelected for president of the USSA in 2016. As I said before, I believe Mr. Obama should be impeached and there are many grounds for doing so. I truly believe that the survival of the Republic demands he be removed from office, legally and peacefully.

          • Deerinwater

            Such responsibility and position will give you grey hair, even with maps, GPS, radar and sonar what it is today, the “dark expanse ” of a huge black rolling sea and no one to tell you that you are correct, will bring about these “come to Jesus meeting” when you are all alone. Having piloted a 100 ton vessel around the Southern US coastline and up 75 miles some dark rivers, places I’ve never been in the daylight much less total black out, I have shared some of your “excitement” , living on adrenaline for hours at a time. Excited to see the sun rise one more time and hand off your responsibilities to someone else. Still in a state of shock that you made it!

            I accept you as a ‘thinking man” as I or we would both be dead by now and took some people with us.

            Al Gore underwent this early grooming process for the title and position that you speak of as well. he came close didn’t he but it wasn’t to be.

            A 1951 Law states 10 years or two terms is a Presidential tenure. It needs to stay that way would be my thoughts. It’s this fight for dominion between two opposing forces that offers the USA much in the way of purposeful guidance. We do have and employ a strange way of getting things done it seems, but it’s worked to various degrees thus far as we debate the intent of a 240 year old document.

            I know the “right” doesn’t approve of any left, while still they offered us up 8 years of their own brand of ‘right”. The we only went around in circles and really didn’t go very far while some nations moved on, is disappointing.

            2016 is the “right’s” next window, They need to be there and be ready to take charge.

          • recce1

            I was navigating an Air Force KC-135 jet tanker with a failed radar and TACAN, no GPS, and no LORAN during twilight with a cirrus overcast so my sextant was useless. I used dead reckoning and pressure pattern for most of the trip from CA to HA.

            That 1951 law was the 22nd Amendment and I wish we had one limiting the terms of representatives and senators.

            Our constitutional system wasn’t set up with the idea everyone would play nice. So in their wisdom the Founders set up a system of checks and balances.

            It’s my fear however, that the federal government, particularly the executive branch, is circumventing the Constitution through the use of the Establishment, Necessary & Proper, Commerce, and Supremacy Clauses. If they do we’ll see a welfare nanny socialist/fascist one-party state and a demise of the Bill of Rights, what’s left of it.

          • Deerinwater

            Pressure patterns? Ouch! Well, you use what you’ve got to work with, while knowing just wishing and hoping leaves a huge gaping hole in your reckoning that could easily get you dead, embarrassment being the least of your worries.

            That is what has brought us together in some strange way I suppose, the mutual appreciation for accuracy even if it’s in stipulation of conditions and patterns much like your “pressure patterns”

            The 135 is a fine ship, while I’ve never been on a KC, being a fuel’er ,extreme powerful and built hell for sought would be my guess. We used C’s in Nam, but there many copies of the 135, over the years, sub killers, weather planes, etc ~ of course i’m not telling you anything you don’t know. Very impressive bird.

            It’s funny, of the parallels , that is what this 100 ton Utility vessel I work on was, a small tanker, port and starboard main tanks 15,000 gal. each. Void capacity 80,000 of diesel , 20, 000 gallons of potable water. We set low in the water when loaded, a good ship is a wet ship. It made for smooth sailing, breaking waves rather then riding on top with a 20 ft draft. About 13 knot at 1700 RPM, maybe enough speed to get out of the way with a 20 minute warning. More RPM would not equal more speed. Staying alert was insurance to staying alive.

            This executive branch constitutional over reach you speak of is call for concern no doubt and it’s only proper that people be mindful and aware that it exist and has since before the days of Lincoln. There was not a single reason for the great Civil war but many, some of these were Constitutional concerns like States Rights and Powers of the Fed that conflicted.

            recce1 the plight of the working poor and this swing to the socialist side has been going on all of my adult years. I see many factors contribution to this, mostly markets that depend on the Federal government and the Federal governments ambitions.

            The Federal government can’t employ every American, every American can’t deliver the mail or work in defense plants or be profession soldiers.

            The private sector has many facets to it as well, and there too market forces are at work. Some of us bake bread, milk cows, roof houses, drive trucks and buss’es, but most of us are just scratching to stay alive while government and government concerns enjoys their day in the sun. We are mostly prop people that hopefully find our station in life and find ourselves useful in a food chain.

            This conservative habit of ~ just leaving the private sector alone to fend for it’s self might be okay if it wasn’t for NAFA or losing jobs to 3rd world countries.

            It’s hard to try to ignore 40 million hungry people while that seem to be the option being offered.

            The United States is slowly turning into a Republic of Mexico. A country where opportunities are much smaller then the demand, where the entitled and privileged enjoy great freedoms and wealth while telling everyone else to get a “job” and work harder, you just are not working hard enough. The privileged think little about inequalities and cony capitalism, laws that restrict free enterprise and block product to the market place. They are enjoying the benefits the systems in place offer.

            America was on the edge of running out of “consumers” in 2000. There was Tthe people didn’t have the money to spend, while the people that did have money wasn’t spending it.

            It was a confidence issue as much as any other single factor.

            85 year old people hang on tight to their money, they feel vulnerable. They might be holding a half a million dollars and eating cat food. They are easy to alarm. The pride themselves with being independent, you can’t but admire them for this.

            It’s sort of funny , at 64 I think of the times I’ve heard people say “Youth is wasted on the young” and it is so true! If I have the energy of youth now, I’d be a monster.

            But then again, Money could be seen as wasted on the old, rather then spent it, they willing to eat cat food.

            Then too, for a nation that spends 10 times more on military interest then any other nation in the world and to be out of “WORK” , no war, creates it’s own unique set of problems. A lot of America’s problems today is unique to America. What other nation can people “drive” to the poor house? The way our government has elected to spend money has much to do with this.

            4;18 am, hmm? Enjoyed our chat.

          • John Wilch (TSgt, USAF Ret.)

            Yeah, you are right, Sir! If the people don’t wake up and stop being sheeple, we will not have a FREE and Gloious nation called a Democratic Republic we will be living in a Socialist country run by a Tyrantical Socialpath. Sorry, about the spell but I don’t claim to be an educated man, just a proud retired E-6 who has worked for everything he’s recieved in life with the help of the good lord and a strong back.


          • Deerinwater

            With the utmost respect John, you retired from a socialist system, the military.

            I commdend you for your service and commitment to our nation.

          • recce1

            An E-6, great. My late father, an Army light colonel, told me before I went into the AF to remember it was sergeants who ran the show and if I got into a command position to find a good First Shirt and back him and let him do his job and he’d protect my derriere.

            Sadly I believe we are now well on the way to a USSA and that the Constitution, particularly the Bill of Rights, is all but dead. I can’t name one of the first Ten Amendments except the Third that’s still intact. Now we have rampant misuses of the Establishment, Necessary and Proper, Commerce, and Supremacy Clauses.

            Consider what Mr. Obama said about the supreme Court a few days ago in regard to it potentially finding the healthcare law unconstitutional. He challenged its right of judicial review, something every first year law student knows from the 1803 SCOTUS Mayberry v. Madison case. Obama knows, he didn’t misspeak, it’s that he believes he has a right to disregard the Constitution.

            For that reason and others we need to not only to defeat Fabian socialist Mr. Obama, we need to elect constitutional conservatives to office no matter what party they belong to. If not we can turn of the light to the beacon on a hill and admit the Great Experiment failed.

  • recce1

    Does the fact that John served in the military invalidate his comment? Could it not be that having served in an authoritarian system we military retirees just might realize it’s not good for the country as a whole and would oppose such an imposition on the country, even by resorting to force should the government try to impose socialism on the country in violation of the constitution?

    By the way, how is the military socialist? Is all our property the property of the government? Do we have no rights? Are we required to buy only government approved products? Are we required to obey orders if they’re unconstitutional, illegal, or immoral?

    But sure, the military is authoritarian, but it’s not socialist or communist. At least not when I was in it.

    • Deerinwater

      “? But sure, the military is authoritarian, but it’s not socialist or communist. At least not when I was in it.”

      Very good! While my baited comment was for John, you framed it nicely recce1.

      The military is in deed authoritarianism in the truest sense and personal freedoms limited and restricted.

      If the military wants you to dress the same, eat the same and act the same and accept the same controls, it for only for you to comply. It’s not a”request”

      Authoritarianism is a form of social organization characterized by submission to authority. It is usually opposed to individualism and libertarianism. In politics, an authoritarian government is one in which political authority is concentrated in a small group of politicians.

      This section requires expansion.
      Authoritarianism is characterized by highly concentrated, and centralized power maintained by “political repression and the exclusion of potential challengers” .]

      Authoritarianism emphasizes arbitrary law rather than the rule of law, it often includes election rigging, political decisions being made by a select group of officials behind closed doors, a bureaucracy that sometimes operates independently of rules,[dubious – discuss] which does not properly supervise elected officials, and fails to serve the concerns of the constituencies they purportedly serve.

      Authoritarianism also tends to embrace the informal and unregulated exercise of political power, a leadership that is “self-appointed and even if elected cannot be displaced by citizens’ free choice among competitors

      ,” the arbitrary deprivation of civil liberties, and little tolerance for meaningful opposition;[2]

      So, as we can see the military has little tolerance for descent.

      While anyone spending 20 year in such an environment , the accepting off base housing or bachelors quarters, enjoying the PX and pricing privileges, enjoying socialized health care for the family, how can I not see a strong element of socialism after 20 years of exposes in such an environment.

      There is nothing “private sector” about military life,

      Every base camp, every out post that I served, It was explained as “This man’s army”

      which I learned to mean, It “would be” however the CO wanted it to be. If there was “no walking” allowed in base camp, you ran everywhere you went.

      If there was no civies allowed on base, the only people that wore civies were non-military.

      If the Base Commander , didn’t approve of long hair on males, your children complied or didn’t come on base.

      These rules and enforcement of them changed from duty station to duty station.

      • John Wilch (TSgt, USAF Ret.)

        Deerinwater, in what military did you serve?

        In all my years in the service I never once ran into a CO that was that much of a tyrant or jerk that he put out those kind of rules. Oh, when I was stationed in Korea we wore our uniforms on and off base because Korea as any servicemember will tell you is still somewhat of a combat-zone, there was no peace treaty signed only a cease-fire agreement. Oh, it was also called a Hardship tour because you could not take your family with you. Oh, I forgot we could also wear civies on post if we were only going to the Club, but if we were going to leave (go on pass) we had to change into the proper attire.

        • Deerinwater

          ” In this “man’s” Army ” Sir. I wouldn’t expect such rigid conduct code for Air Force personal.

          And yea, I agree, they were a$$holes, but the a$$hole in charge no less.

          • John Wilch (TSgt, USAF Ret.)

            D, I served in the Army for 19 years before I went Air Force. The reason I did I got tired of bouncing around inside of an Armored Coffin (an APC or 113A, then transitioned in tanks (M60A1). While in the Army I had several jobs, some I can’t talk about and some I can.
            Those I can are Personel Specialist (71H), Door Gunner with A Co. 228th Avn Bn, 1st Cavalry Division (AM), Heavy-wire construction (36C), Red-eye Gunner (16P), Clerk typist, Supply clerk, NBC clerk, Armored Recon [Scout] (19D30), Armored Crewman (19E30), OTR Truck driver, Cook. My Air Force stint was as a Cook in the Air National Guard and then during Desert Storm was activated and sent to Nellis AFB, Nev.
            In all I was stationed all over the world.

      • recce1

        Do you believe the authoritarian military structure is unfair, unjust, or wrong? If so, how would you maintain a competent and effective fighting force?

        As you say, the freedoms of military members are limited and restricted. However, they aren’t eliminated, particularly not the rights listed in the Bill of Rights. The the rights they have are protected by regulation and the UCMJ.

        When I was in the service we weren’t required to all eat the same or act the same, nor were we required to dress the same when off duty. Even the Marines weren’t that restricted, although I doubt I’d have made a good Marine. ;-)

        The type of authoritarianism in the military isn’t arbitrary. There’re definitely defined rules, regulations, and laws which if violated by superiors exposes them to sanctions. I remember a base commander in Alaska who was relieved of command and forced to retire for his mistreatment of an enlisted man who wasn’t wearing his uniform properly. Two wrongs don’t make a right.

        However, the restrictions of the military have no bearing on civilians and the civil political arena, or at least they shouldn’t have. Of course you and I know that’s not always true. Consider Nazi Germany, Soviet Russia and China, and especially N. Korea. In Cambodia the Khmer Rouge slaughtered those it felt didn’t conform to its ideas of good agrarian citizens.

        That’s why in the USA we have a system of checks and balances. Unfortunately we civilians have failed to follow the advice of Jefferson and thus have failed to see that the checks and balances were enforced, leading to an erosion of our rights. Now the state claims sovereign immunity to protect itself from being held accountable for misconduct and injustice towards its citizens and says it can order its citizens to even purchase what the state wants.

        I guess we have forgotten Jefferson’s adage that, “When the government fears the people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny.”

        However, I never have encountered in my 20 years of service the type conditions you describe, even in Korea. If any commander of mine had demanded that our dependents complied with Regulation 35-10 I would have had him up on charges. I also remember a Marine colonel in Okinawa dressing down one of our crewmembers in civies eating in the officers’ mess for not having a proper Marine style haircut. The captain went nose to nose with the colonel and prevailed as the captain was willing to get our AF general involved.

        So commanders didn’t have the authority to change the rules and regulations for military members. They had to comply with the rule of law, which to us were the military regulations and the UCMJ. I could go to any base and expect the same rules. My father, an Army colonel, taught me much of this when we lived on Army bases.

        • Deerinwater

          I’m not attempting to debunk your summation but agree with you completely, That’s the military and the military way and it will only serve us well if it continues to be that way, an Authoritarian rule and why Sgt. Gary Stein hasn’t got a leg to stand on in his defense.

          I don’t suppose that you heard of any race wars in the military either? I doubt it from the things that you say.

          Well, they happened ~ while it’s too long in the telling, just let me say that they were nasty, deadly and covered up. I found myself in the position of being required to take sides in something I wanted no part of and became an active player in the process.

          I learned full well, what the military is capable of and what they can do with an embarrassing mess. It goes away, while you’ve got what rights they are willing to allow you to have.

          I was so glad to get out of the states and the safely of Nam, I can’t hardly express my joy.

          I have a friend I grew up with, same neighborhood, joined up days apart, when though basic together, he experienced similar condition, he was in the hospital for 4 months from a black gang beating, missed shipping out and the Nam experience. Spent balance of his tour driving the CO around with spit shined tires and hanging out in the orderly room.

          Like I say, I found it to be “This man’s Army” and that could be darn near anything they wanted it to be.

  • Ms. Matti

    There will always be rules and regulations – no matter the situation. You may not always like the rules, but you must abide by the rules to play the game. If you can’t play fair or play by the rules, then you can’t play. He just needs to do his job as a paid Marine. He is not being paid for his personal opinion.

    Straight n 2 the point!!

    • recce1

      You’re correct, a military person must abide by the rules and regulations. Disobey them and they’ll face charges under the UCMJ. That’s straight and to the point.

      Also straight and to the point is that someone shouldn’t be prosecuted because it angers someone if in fact they didn’t break the regulations. It’s been emphatically stated on this forum that military members have no constitution rights. That’s emphatically not true; restrictions yes, but they’re not suspended. That’s straight to the point. Period.

      Major, USAF, Retired, Disabled

    • John Wilch (TSgt, USAF Ret.)

      Ms. Matti, following you will see the oath that we had to take be-yee an officer or enlisted.
      The wordings of the current oath of enlistment and oath for commissioned officers are as follows:

      “I, _____, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God.” (Title 10, US Code; Act of 5 May 1960 replacing the wording first adopted in 1789, with amendment effective 5 October 1962).

      “I, _____ (SSAN), having been appointed an officer in the Army of the United States, as indicated above in the grade of _____ do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic, that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office upon which I am about to enter; So help me God.” (DA Form 71, 1 August 1959, for officers.)

      I believe the oath is the same for any branch, all you have to change the name of the service that you are entering.

      After I took that oath and entered Basic Training, I was taught that there were times when I could disobey an order if it would get me or one of my men, when I reach the rank that allowed me to lead others, killed. Oh there are other times you can and are expected to disobey.

      Would you expect me to obey an order that would get say your son killed if I could? I as an NCO felt that I didn’t the responsiblity of leading my men into combat from the Military I got it from people like you, who turned your sons or daughters over to me to watch out our for their welfare and bring them home alive if I could. However, I promised to bring them home and I hoped that I had them trained enough to where they would react properly when the sh-t hit the fan.


  • Army NCO Ret

    When the rat in the White House is discharged for being a fake, let the SGT back into
    the Marines.

    • John Wilch (TSgt, USAF Ret.)

      Hey, Sarge, I agree 1000% with what you said except for the part of discharging him. Don’t discharge the Jarhead; why not do this: Reduction in rank, foriture (?) of 1 month pay, and transfer to an Embassy say like Japan and after the COTUS (Obumer) is ousted reenstate his rank with all back pay.

      Sarge, I may have retired out of the Air Force, but I earned my E-6 in the Army as a 19D (Armored Recon (Scout) Section Sergeant).

  • Deerinwater

    That’s quit an impressive Rez recce1 and John, from Army to Air Force, from Door gunner to spoon. recce1, I thought those M60′s were suppose to like a Cadillac? LOL! They look like they roll nice anyway, sure beats the ride in a M48 or a 40 ton RTV.

    I was not a career soldier, I volunteer for the draft with a two year commitment and early out of Nam with a 180 day to DOS. Having only 180 left to serve and declining E6, they cut me loose.

    At the speed, I was going I didn’t learn the “system” and how it worked. I had my hands full doing what I was told to do. I did it well enough that rank , responsibility, and accommodations came quickly. I was rewarded handsomely. It’ seems that duty in a combat theater enable this “fast tracking” ~ at what rank this quick climb might stop, I don’t know, I didn’t stick around to find out.

    What’s seem rather clear from all of you retired military men postings, is that you did learn the system and moved around inside it as your personal ambitions dictated and the system permitted opportunities, using your knowledge,time served, merits and accommodations to solicit your aspirations.

    There is distinct difference between a Career Soldier and a conscript.

    Of the 58,209 American’s killed or missing in the Vietnam conflict, I wonder how many found the time to learn their rights? I seriously question if half of them might have found that time.

    I intend no disrespect to anyone that served, we were all on the same team, we all depended on each other in many ways, too many to list. Hearing the sound of American aircraft overhead, lighten my worries many times. Sometimes they was traveling so fast, we only heard them leaving and hoping they might make another pass.

    But for some of us, 110% soldiers, we never thought along such lines as “personal rights and freedoms”or “arbitrary”, such words just simply was not in our vocabulary.

    It was Hell, we accepted it as being Hell, and forgive me for not sticking around any longer then I agreed to. My country owes me nothing, my debit is paid.

    If you think, it’s okay for a GI to claim his Commander & Chief is a domestic enemy, you and I will just have to disagree. I’ve got nothing for him.

    • Patrice Lavin-Walker

      Let’s get it correct….if he does, in fact, deserve the title, it would be Commander-in-Chief…this Marine deserves an applaud from every honorably serving veteran in this Great United States of America….he is a fraud, a fake and he Anti American….if and I say , If, I was still serving (thank the Good Lord) I am not because I would have lost my career…I would be standing up and talking against this piece of sh@@ of a person that claims to be in favor of our Great Country the USA…yet he BOWS to a KING…the first president in history that every BOWED to a king of another country…it’s time for a Civil War…and most recently…if he had a son, he would look like Trayvon…please…he’s now attempting to incite rioting within the black community…he needs to shut his big lying face up and get out of office…be happy collecting his big bucks for the rest of his life and get out of ours!

      • Deerinwater

        thank you so much for your racist comments.

      • recce1

        Deerinwater, Patrice Lavin-Walker’s description of Mr. Obama was indeed uncalled for, but how is it racist? In addition, Mr. Obama is using racial, ethnic, gender, and economic divide to cause strife so as to rally his socialist base. Pointing that out isn’t racist.

        But again, Patrice Lavin-Walker’s description of Mr. Obama was disrespectful in the extreme. I was like the Left calling Bush a Nazi and Hitler and saying he should be assassinated.

      • Libertytrain

        sorry Deer, I didn’t see racist comments there? What was racist? I saw an intense opinion – but racist? What word was racist?

      • Deerinwater

        “Libertytrain says:
        April 10, 2012 at 6:52 am
        sorry Deer, I didn’t see racist comments there? What was racist?”

        I stand corrected, the poster failed to use parentheses, identifying a quote, allowing me to misread his “rant”.

        Thank both of you for your correction. I’ve not been sucked into that Zimmerman mess and not aware of who said what. Without “Quotes” I was misdirected.

  • recce1

    Let’s start off with what your country owes you. Anyone who served in that hell hole of the Vietnam War deserves the respect and thanks of his fellow countrymen. They also deserve VA care if they’ve suffered ill effects from it.

    As for an M60 tank, I’ve never had the pleasure(?) of riding in one. I rode in KC-135 tankers and an RC-135 reconnaissance aircrafts, usually at 30,000 feet plus at the time. While it sounds safe, having a MiG or Sukhoi tucked in tight near your wingtip was sometimes unnerving.

    As I understand it, Army officers had rapid promotions in Vietnam considering how many young ones got killed, especially by not listening to their sargeants.

    Even in the Air Force, promotion time from lieutenant to captain went from 5 years to 3 years and to major from 12 years to 7. Of course as I mentioned. it took me longer as I overruled the decision of an aircraft commander in order to save an RC-135, its crew, and staff.

    I never saw any differences in treatment between conscripts and career military personnel of the same rank. Of course in Vietnam the situation might have been quite different. There the whole object was to survive and get home.

    But comparing the situation of military people of the Vietnam War era and to today is stretching it a bit. Nevertheless, I heard of many enlisted men concerned then about their rights, such as was it right to be drafted during an undeclared war. And I heard about more than a few who expressed those concerns thru fraggings and in advocating removing the CinC with extreme prejudice.

    By the way, did you ever hear the sound of an aircraft that wasn’t American? That would’ve been really unnerving. ;-)

    • John Wilch (TSgt, USAF Ret.)

      Recce1, thanks for your service Major. As for riding in an M-60A1 tank is was like riding a roller-coaster that couldn’t make up its mind which direction it wanted to go. There is a crew of 4 men: Track Commander (TC), Gunner, Loader, and the Driver.

      When they are in combat the usual procedure was to travel Button-up (all hatches closed). The TC was setted looking out his vison blocks, the Gunner was also setted looking through his sights, the Driver was sitting behind his steering wheel looking out his vision block, while the poor Loader (no vision blocks) was standing amoung the rounds that were stored on the floor, it made for one hell of a ride. Oh, yeah whenever we were about to fire we had to stop so the the Gunner could get a proper sight-picture. In those days we had to do all this damn near manually. Oh sure we had a computer on board but all it did was to help the Gunner by adjusting the barrel to wear and tear, and few other rudimentary adjustments. That is why we called the M-60 series tanks “Dinosaurs!”

      Oh, I forgot to say whenever were about to enter a Contaminated Area we had to go Op4 (wear our protective gear: Mask, Gloves, and Suit (Charcoal lined)) inside the tank while still buttoned-up. Talk about roasting in your own juices because the outside temp may be 100 degrees but inside that Iron Beast it could get up to around 120 degrees just in your normal uniform but when in OP4, god only knew what the temp was. NO AIR CONDITIONING.


      • Deerinwater

        WoW! that sounds miserable enough to make anyone join the Air Force John. I was thinking the Abrams M 60 could fire on the fly? I’ve only seen film clips of this hardware in action. They do look strange on a fast track. The suspension moves in an uncanny fashion, like a roller coaster that doesn’t know which way it’s going makes perfect sense. It looks like it’s floating the chassis.

        Edited film ? maybe. Have they ever installed air-conditioning in one? With over a thousand horse power, you’d think they could spare 25 for AC.

        “By the way, did you ever hear the sound of an aircraft that wasn’t American?”

        No, recce1, not aircraft, but I elected to phase that sentence that way rather then go though the 15 to 20 air to ground platforms and all three branches of the service that had air operations in progress, not to mention we had other nations with token troops who fought with us if you will recall.

        Some aircraft were in and out so quick, what little you seen of them would leave you guessing what they were. But now that you asked a “pointed” question. What eased my worry the most was the sound of a Bell Huey Medivac slick, beating it way though to a hot LZ to dust off the wounded. That was a wonderful sound.

        It was the knowing that we were still connected and not out there all alone. The knowing that the LZ was not so hot, some brave pilot was willing to try to get in and out, that mean a lot to all of us at the time and still does today.

        Back at base camp my hooch was positioned within 175 ft. of the Medivac pad. Even when I was standing down, I knew when someone had opened up a can of worms and all hell was breaking loose somewhere.

        • John Wilch (TSgt, USAF Ret.)

          DW, the M-60 tank belonged to the Patton series of tanks. Which had a 105mm gun and the rounds weighted in at about 90 pounds. There was no Stablization on the A-1 version however there was one added to the A-3 version which did help in targeting but we still had to stop briefly when firing. The gun had an 18″ recoil which made it damn hard to maintain the target you are firing at.

          Now the tank the you must be thinking of is the M-1A2 120mm Cannon “Abrams”, I don’t know how much they weight but but I do know they are damn heavy so that is why the Loader doesn’t have to hold the next round as does the M-60A1 “Patton” tank’s Loader. The stablization system on this tank is what allows the crew to fire on the move with a 90% first round kill ratio.

        • recce1

          Now those medevac pilots and crews were really brave, Going into a zone where the enemy knew you would under fire was heroic. I’m sure the grunts on the ground appreciated them.

      • recce1

        I had to wear chemical gear in a command post in Korea. I’m sure it was far more comfortable than being in a tank.

        • John Wilch (TSgt, USAF Ret.)

          Yeah, Recce!, it was, just imagine that you are in a hot sauna dress for winter in Alaska and then triple it, thats what it felt like inside of that Dinosaur. However, I’d do it again in a heartbeat, I’d much rather be in an armored vehicle than walking about in just my uniform. the only draw-back is that you can’t hide it very easy.

          Oh, I believe that DW was wondering if they ever added AC or better protection for the crews of a tank. In the M-1 Abrams they call it Shirt sleeve enviroment, all they have to is button-up.

      • Patrice Lavin-Walker

        God Bless you TSgt USAF Ret, John Wilch…as I am a TSgt USAF retired…thank you for your honorable service to this Great Country the United States of America!!!!!

  • Deerinwater

    Seems clear enough,~ the Air Force is sweet duty. That is where this thread is going. The dead , those that gave all they had to give ~ are unable to post! Their voices now silent

    Should I be so bold enough as to speak for the dead? Those that never asked about “their RIGHTs as soldiers?

    Oh no! That might “offend”.

    I would not wish to do that!

    But still,we are here and they are where we left them.

    Can you live with that?~ I guess we will have to.

    • Patrice Lavin-Walker

      Sweet duty…what branch of the military falls under “sweet duty”….?

  • Patrice Lavin-Walker

    recci 1….I want you to describe to me one racist comment I made with regard to Barry Soetoro? I stated the facts…I have served this Great Country Honorably and thank God I am honorably retired because I would be beside our proud Marine who stands up against this Anti-American, Anti-Constitutional, Anti Christian, Anti everything that this Great Country Stands for…..quote my racist remark(s)…..go ahead….can’t wait.

    • Deerinwater

      recce1 did not suggest that you did Sir and actually defended you against the charge that I made against you.

      When you quote others, please indicate that it’s a “Quote” and this most likely will not occur again.

    • recce1

      Patrice, I think you’re complaining to the wrong person. It was Deerinwater who implied your statement was racist, not I. I responded to him with the following; “Deerinwater, Patrice Lavin-Walker’s description of Mr. Obama was indeed uncalled for, but how is it racist? In addition, Mr. Obama is using racial, ethnic, gender, and economic divide to cause strife so as to rally his socialist base. Pointing that out isn’t racist.”

      So, I can’t wait for your apology.

      Seriously, I agree with your criticism of Mr. Obama. Mr. Obama is a Fabian socialist with a disdain for the Constitution and is following an agenda set by Saul Alinsky and Cloward & Pivens. His goal is to change the USA into the USSA. As such that makes him a domestic enemy. I took an oath upon entering the Air Force to support and defend the Constitution against all enemies both foreign AND domestic. I believe that oath is still binding.

      However I don’t use foul language in describing him, although I do understand why some people do. I believe that we of the loyal opposition shouldn’t behave like a lot of socialist-progressives do. Is that wrong in your opinion?

      By the way, his name is Barack Hussein Obama, Jr., not Barry Soetoro. His father was Barack Hussein Obama Sr., a British citizen from Kenya. Do you deny that? His mother was a US citizen but a minor at the time he was born. That’s a critical consideration.

      I go by the name of Bob, Bobby when I was younger because in school others made fun of my Hispanic name and beat me up over it. Was I being dishonest in using a common nickname?

      Mr. Obama’s step-father was Lolo Soetoro and was supposedly adopted by his step-father when he went to Indonesia. However, that would have absolutely no bearing on his Hawaiian birth certificate, even if it is real.

  • Patrice Lavin-Walker

    I served with a Special Ops Wind…Psyops….I served before during and after 9/11….I also served with an Airlift Wing as a loadmaster…so there…I’m an Non Commissioned Officer but I worked hard for a living and hard for this Great Country ……..Barry Soetoro does not belong on office and our proud Marine will be found not guilty once BS is exposed…he’s not even qualified to be our President of this Great Country…say as you will MAJOR…I have retired…does that make me unsubordinate? LOL ha try me!

    • recce1

      Evidently to many progressive it not only makes you insubordinate but also racist and unAmerican for daring to criticize our Commander-in-Chief of the country. However, I can’t seem to find in the Constitution that he’s the CiC of anything but the active duty military despite his claim to the contrary.

      So move over and this retired and retreaded major will join you on the bench. I firmly believe that Mr. Obama should be impeached, even if it’s a foregone conclusion that the Democrat controlled Senate will never vote to convict a sitting Democrat president, even if it were proven beyond a shadow of a doubt in court he wasn’t eligible for the office. Consider what happened with Bill Clinton when he was impeached.

      • John Wilch (TSgt, USAF Ret.)

        Sir, I’m not really sure of my facts on this subject, just something I picked up over my years of study. I believe that Mr. O needs to be asked by Congress to become and to be truely called the CinC and I don’t believe he has not been ask. Oh, I do believe that he considers himself the CinC by him holding the office of the President.

        ‘Nam Vet, ’68-’69, A Co. 228th Avn Bn, 1st Cav Div (AM).
        Desert Storm called to Active Duty with the Air Force (’91)

        • recce1

          Under the Constitution the President automatically becomes the Commander-in-Chief of the US armed forces, whether Congress likes it or not.

          However, in a speech Mr. Obama referred to himself as the commander-in-chief of the nation because we were at war. However, that is not supported by the Constitution or any law.

          As a matter of fact, the only way for Congress to relieve him of the position of CinC of the military is to impeach and remove him from the presidency. By the way, I believe that should be done.

          • jeff

            in 2008 the US was engaged in two wars Iraq and Afghanistan. as the elected president he would then be commander in chief and would not be asked by congress. he was appointed by the people of the united states. just the way it is.

          • recce1

            I think you’ve misunderstood. Maybe I wasn’t clear enough. Nowhere in the Constitution does it make the president the CinC of the country, the general population, but that was what Obama called himself. According to the Constitution by virtue of being president the president is the CinC of the military automatically.

            However, the Congress controls the purse strings to the military. It’s part of the checks and balanced built into the Constitution, what’s left of it.

            Only if Congress approves a declaration of a national emergency can a president suspend certain rights of the people under the Constitution such as the right of Habeas Corpus. See Article 1, Section 9 of the Constitution.

            Many believe, as I do, that Congress has abrogated that power, particularly with the Patriot and Homeland Security Acts under Pres. Bush. But then Congress has ever since after FDR abrogated it’s war making powers.

      • Deerinwater

        “recce1 says:
        April 11, 2012 at 4:53 am
        Evidently to many progressive it not only makes you insubordinate but also racist and unAmerican for daring to criticize our Commander-in-Chief of the country.”

        Most of the commentary presented here, far exceeds my understanding of what I’d call “criticism” but I will look just to make sure!

        Criticism is the practice of judging the merits and faults of something or someone recce1

        To engage in criticism is “to criticize”.

        Criticism can be:
        directed toward a person or an animal; at a group, authority or organization; at a specific behaviour; or at an object of some kind (an idea, a relationship, a condition, a process, or a thing).

        personal (delivered directly from one person to another, in a personal capacity), or impersonal (expressing the view of an organization, and not aimed at anyone personally).
        highly specific and detailed, or very abstract and general.

        verbal (expressed in language) or non-verbal (expressed symbolically, or expressed through an action or a way of behaving).

        explicit (the criticism is clearly stated) or implicit (a criticism is implied by what is being said, but it is not stated openly).

        the result of critical thinking[1] or spontaneous impulse.

        To criticize does not necessarily imply “to find fault”, but the word is often taken to mean the simple expression of an objection against prejudice, or a disapproval.

        Often criticism involves active disagreement, but it may only mean “taking sides”. There may not be any fighting involved.

        Criticism is often presented as something unpleasant, but it need not be. It could be friendly criticism, amicably discussed, and some people find great pleasure in criticism (“keeping people sharp”, “providing the critical edge”).

        The Pulitzer Prize for Criticism has been presented since 1970 to a newspaper writer who has demonstrated ‘distinguished criticism’.

        Let us look at some of this “criticism;

        Steven says:
        Mr.Oba…Is no more than a common Thug,and should be legally treated as one.

        Patrice Lavin-Walker says:
        .he is a fraud, a fake and he Anti American……I would be standing up and talking against this piece of sh@@ of a person that claims to be in favor of our Great Country the USA…yet he BOWS to a KING…the first president in history that every BOWED to a king of another country…

        recce1 says:
        I believe Mr. Obama is a clear and present danger to what’s left of this once democratic Republic under the rule of constitutional law and should be impeached forthwith.

        Will says;
        The fact that Obama is a total incognito with Zero accomplishment, makes this inexplicable infatuation alarming. Obama is not an ordinary man. He is not a genius. In fact he is quite ignorant on most important subjects.”

        Tunaman say;

        Will post;
        “Dr. Vaknin States “I must confess I was impressed by Obama from the first time I saw him. At first I was excited to see a black candidate. He looked youthful, spoke well, appeared to be confident — a wholesome presidential package. I was put off soon, not just because of his shallowness but also because there was an air of haughtiness in his demeanor that was unsettling. His posture and his body language were louder than his empty words. Obama’s speeches are unlike any political speech we have heard in American history. Never a politician in this land had such quasi “religious” impact on so many people.”

        conclusion; Dr Vaknin and recce1 offer thoughtful articulate criticism, the rest are just ranting demeaning personal attack in a feeble effort to debase and demonize.

        I enjoy listening to pointed criticism ~ it gets my attention , I look into it, I consider it, weigh it. I make a mental note of it and stay alert for collaborating data. I do exactly what you might hope I will do.

        I thank the few of you that offer it.

        • recce1

          I was specifically referring to one retired military person who wondered if he would be considered insubordinate. However, as I implied, I’ve seen far too many progressives play the race, ungratefulness, and disloyalty cards to any and all criticism of the president.

          However, I have to agree with your assessment that some people are not just being disrespectful to Mr. Obama but also to the office of the presidency. But even that is not always racism or disloyalty.

          But as Pres. Theodore Roosevelt said, “To announce that there must be no criticism of the president, or that we are to stand by the president right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.”

          • Deerinwater

            Once again I find us in agreement,

            I felt it was my patriotic duty to speak out against “W”s war policys and was called, anti military, gun hater, pinko, yellow, tree hugger, unChristian, unAmerican, spineless, faqot, fairy and a coward by GOP right winger Christian types that did not appreciate my criticism. Over the course of 6 years this resulted in two bar fights, one with gun play that landed a gun owner in the hospital to have it removed from his rectum and treatment for skin abrasions around the teeth, gums, hair and eyes. No to mention that I lost several customers and a few friends in the process.

            So? I seriously doubt if you have received anything that I didn’t get in our efforts to fulfill our patriotic duty. The Left, the DNC, or Progressives does not have the markets cornered in vial contempt to Presidential criticism.

            I would just like to make that point perfectly clear. Your observation and statement was innocent enough while I feel it worthy to expand and elaborate. Today’s crass, hateful, mean spirited political climate did not begin with 44 accepting the “first chair” position.

  • Patrice Lavin-Walker

    Clearly I did not spell WING properly…Special Operations Wing…..psyops…know all about that Major?

  • Patrice Lavin-Walker

    Or should I say “insubordinate” you may be a Major but I’ve outdown you by far in my miliary career….trust me.

    • recce1

      Is hubris getting the best of you? I believe in what Reagan said, trust but verify. I’ve seen nothing to verify you even served, certainly not in combat.

  • Patrice Lavin-Walker

    OOOOPs there I go again……i meant OUT DOWN you Ms. Major……by FAR

    • recce1

      Why is it you need to call me Ms. Major? Is it you need to resort to an ad hominem attack because you’re unable post a cogent response? You say you’ve served. If you had you’d know better. So please quit the narishkayt.

  • recce1

    While I’d hardly say the Air Force was sweet duty, I lost too many friends in the Vietnam War, tanker duty, and in reconnaissance, it was generally easier than being a combat Marine or combat Army soldier. I did see my fair share of Soviet, Chinese, and Cuban MiGs and Sukhois up far too close, like wing tip to wing tip, and had a few commit on us. I’ve also seen my fair share of aircraft emergencies. But I have the utmost regard for those on the ground in actual combat. I must also mention the Navy crews who also put themselves in harm’s way.

    You’re correct, we’re here to speak for them.

    • Deerinwater

      “You’re correct, we’re here to speak for them.”

      I thank you for that, I see it as a surviving soldiers final obligation.

  • Howard Sheffer

    Why is it that German soldiers were held responsible for following “illegal” orders but an illegal order such as confiscating arms held by citizens issued by our imperial president is considered grounds for ouster from the Marines?

    • Deerinwater

      Well, rank and file soldiers was not, only the the ones responsible for the crafting of order that resulted in the most heinous of war crimes were.

      A very large difference Sir.

      • recce1

        Explain that to the many German soldiers who were rank and file guards at concentration camps who were prosecuted. How about the military people in the Rwanda military who were also prosecuted?

        Most of the people at the Nuremberg Trials were as you point out the top military and civilian leadership. But ordinary soldiers were punished at a lower level so the press never published that as much.

      • Deerinwater

        Well Sir, I was not at these trials, nor have I offered it extensive review, leaving me to speak in the more general of terms.

        There is something about lamp shades and coin purses,etc made from human skin, the warehouses found full of mountains of eyeglasses, prosthesis, false teeth, wallets, luggage, shoes, cloths, photographs, the personal affect by the shear tonnage that tells us, somebody was guilty of war crimes on a wholesale level.

        If you wish to second guess the verdict of the court and single out the innocent, be my guest. It was a grisly task to undertake, to suggest that there was some “overreach” on the part of the courts? Perhaps, institutions have a history and known for “overreach”.

        I would say to anyone, don’t allow yourself to get caught in the “bite”, while any mature person understands that is NOT always possible. It’s referred to as “irony”, it takes a mature mind to appreciate the “flavor” of irony.

        To suggest, this offers justification or has anything to do with a mesquite wing soldier of 5 years claiming the C in C is a domestic enemy and will refuse orders hence forth, you are being obstinate and totally absurd.

        • recce1

          I don’t know what a mesquite wing soldier means, other than a possibly ethnic slur, but the international laws resulting from the Nuremberg Trails apply to the conduct of US soldiers as well.

          By the way, a domestic enemy as referred to in the enlistment and officer oaths is anyone who works to overturn the Constitution or evade it thru unconstitutional means. By that definition Mr. Obama certainly qualifies.

          • Deerinwater

            “mesquite wing soldier” 2 stripper

            “By the way, a domestic enemy as referred to in the enlistment and officer oaths is anyone who works to overturn the Constitution or evade it thru unconstitutional means. By that definition Mr. Obama certainly qualifies.”

            While you are correct is what you say recce1, these same charges could be made against many of our past presidents and half of the statesman currently presiding on the Hill today.

            Making charges, second guessing leadership and Monday morning quarterbacking is something anyone can do. That you truly don’t know and can’t provide all of the facts or the gravity of the circumstances or actual intent does not seem to deter you while you “assume” away.

            What I would ask of anyone is to submit their “charges” to the courts and permit due process in “that arena” among the more learned professional that hold these responsibilities, oppose to what see happening today, inciting mutiny in the ranks that reeks of a bias political vendetta against a sitting president with a lynch mob mentality.

            All these actions predicated on a single premise “we don’t like him” little more than a knee jerk reaction, an orchestrated effort designed with a single purpose, keep Obama to a single term president, anyway possible.

            But if everyone could function and serve as an Attorney, why would we have need for them?

            I know, it sounds somewhat demeaning to suggest not everyone can serve in the capacity of an Attorney of Law but my personal experience has been, the Judicial system, courts, laws enforcement and all these various arms insist that you employ a scholar of Law, a attorney and to not waste the courts time playing Perry Mason.

            If you cannot find an attorney to champion your cause, there is usually a good reason for it.

            This single soldier’s action has done much of this for you it seem. Yea for you! Finding no attorney willing to take on these claims, the Tea Party has force the issue front and center.

            Are you prepared to live with the final outcome? I would think not, as the general election draws near and the only worthy GOP contender hangs on by a thin thread in his bid for office.

            Republicans will be left to support Mitt Romney and this fight will continue as the GOP and Tea Party tries to “dream up” something else to gridlock government with “labels” and fears of social communism.

            The only thing that will stop these charges and attacks is for the GOP to win the oval office once again, only then will this vanish, disappear from everyone’s radar screen.

          • recce1

            OUCH! But you’re correct that many, if not most, recent presidents and politicians have violated the Constitution. After FDR not one president has gone to war in a constitutional manner. Also most, even “conservative” Republicans, have dabbled in socialism. Think of Bush and the bailouts.

            I also agree with you that a soldier, from private to 4-star general, should use the legal means provided thru channels if they believe an order is illegal or immoral. There’s an exception that was illustrated by recent events. Consider the lower ranking soldiers who were court-martialed due to conduct at Abu Ghraib. As a former intel officer I know that they had been ordered to “soften up” the prisoners for interrogators and that their superiors acquiesced to it. Those interrogators were from the CIA who got their orders from outside the military chain of command much higher up the food chain, likely from the SecDef.

            However, under the UCMJ they couldn’t obey and then say they were following orders as a legal defense. They were obligated to disobey and report the illegal orders thru proper channels. But the “proper” channels were blurred because of CIA involvement. As a former intel officer I believe the CIA should NEVER, again NEVER, be allowed to come between the common soldiers and the military chain of command. The soldiers would have been on firmer ground had they disobeyed the orders of the CIA “liaisons” and if threatened by them to have shot the CIA officers. Some senior officer paid the price of losing their command, including a general, but that didn’t justify the soldiers on scene.

            To let you know, I overrode my aircraft commander and paid the price for it thru slow promotion. But at least I saved my life, that of about 40 others, and the reconnaissance aircraft. But if one disobeys they had best be able to prove their case or be prepared to accept the consequences. Sgt. Stein will have to face that.

            I would add, despite my brother being a former attorney and now a judge, we have far too many pettifoggers. I won’t repeat what Shakespeare said about them. However, military regulations say that for an order to be valid it must be understandable to the average person. With my graduate work in political science I find many laws to be pure Greek to me. Even my brother admits that.

            I’ve found that most erudite constitutionalists, whether Republican or Democrat, are concerned about Mr. Obama over his obvious disdain for the Constitution and his drive to assert Federal supremacy over the sovereign States and the people in violation of the Constitution. It’s not about his race. I wanted a black 4 star to run for the presidency but his wife feared he’d be assassinated. There was also a conservative black woman I liked for the office. I also supported Rep. Alan Keyes, Gov. Steele, and Rep. JC Watts. I’d love it if the GOP could come up with a constitutional conservative Hispanic black female as a candidate.

            Unfortunately, Mr. Obama is a Fabian socialist who wants “equality” thru a redistribution of wealth and government control or ownership of the means of production. There’re more than enough reasons to impeach Mr. Obama. But as that will never happen, we must concentrate on removing him from office thru the ballot box this November.

            That said, again I must wholeheartedly agree with you that other presidents and politicians did the same, including Nixon and both Bushes. Even Reagan didn’t toe the constitutional line at time. I’d say the fading of the concept of federalism, where there was a separation of authority between different levels of government, started with Lincoln, got firmly rooted with Wilson and FDR, and has taken off under Bush and Obama.

            By the way, I never heard of that name for a 2 stripper. But then I wasn’t a sergeant that ran the military.

      • Deerinwater

        “As a former intel officer I know that they had been ordered to “soften up” the prisoners for interrogators and that their superiors acquiesced to it. Those interrogators were from the CIA who got their orders from outside the military chain of command much higher up the food chain, likely from the SecDef.”

        Yes Sir!, you and I know this as being the only way it could have went down, simple because of our experience and a nose for details.

        While I’ve made no mention of it, sorry that you got caught in the “bite” and it costing you. It happens. But you can hold your head high knowing your professional sacrifice changed an outcome and people lives, people that you will never know and will never say Thank You. That’s a character builder, something you can’t buy and some never the chance to know.

        And the beloved Mask Man Ronnie and his companion Tonto Ollie feet were all over the foul line. Both Guilt as Cain and dirty as Sin. I think the Constitution and any notion of checks and balances when out the window with the arms for hostages and Contra flap.

        For what It worth, I wrote many letters defending Ollie North, the liar that he was, just another soldier caught up it the “bite” . It ruined him, changed the course of his life. I honor him , the sinker that he is or was.

        Reagan tenure brought us many clever phrases, such as “increase in deficit reduction” and my own personal favorite “Plausible Deniability”

        As for Shakespeare, he was a wordsmith with no equal to date and harbored a certain animosity toward Attorneys that I think most of us delight in sharing.

        Until you truly need a good Attorney, they can be a serious pain in your assets. I came upon such a time to where I was subjected to my “rights” by the DA’s office of my fair county in the representation of the great State of Texas and the plaintiff.

        I found good fortune and the courts favor in a short Jewish Attorney named “Snodgrass”. I figured from his price tag, affluent address, small statue and a name like Snodgrass, he had to be as mean as a junkyard dog. It was nice to be correct about something.

        There is no substitute for a top notch, bull dog attorney when your head is on the chopping block.

        Enjoy your banter,

        • recce1

          Do you remember the case of Gen. Lavelle who fell on his sword for Nixon over the bombing of Cambodia during the Vietnam War? It’s an interesting story.

      • Deerinwater

        “Do you remember the case of Gen. Lavelle who fell on his sword for Nixon over the bombing of Cambodia during the Vietnam War?”

        No Sir, I am not, but a bell is going off. I was sort of tied up at the time and missed it. Thanks for bringing the name and event to my attention. I will fill this gaping void today!

        I hate the fact that I missed Wood Stock and all that “free love” as will. Much like Opie from Mayberry, I left home for a few years and when I returned the world had changed and I had too. The world had gone mad, everybody walking about anywhere, anyway they wanted too, wearing bright colors and weird cloths, sloughing posture, unclean,unshaven, aggressive women, too many bright lights, traffic moving about way too fast. It was scary after dealing with Saigon traffic, where you drove though a sea of pedestrian by applying the bumper of a 5 ton truck against their backs and every so slowly pushed your way through. I missed a lots of things.

        Back to Gen. Lavelle, he’s the next item on my “to do” list.

        I find such matters fascinating, history is full of unsung hero’s. Men and women who knowingly stood up and stepped into the “bite”,committed to beliefs that superseded both Judas prudence and valor.

        I wish there were credited college courses that defined and focused on these finer points of this human characteristics. If it could “taught”, it should be, “how to serve a greater purpose.”

        Perhaps this Sgt. Gary Stein has done just that in his own way. While I fail to see him as a Ollie North defending his CinC, but rather a complete reverse with his claims of defending the Constitution and attacking the CinC for infractions less greater then the beloved Ronald Reagan. I fail to see Sgt. Gary Stein doing what he has done knowingly but rather acting on impulse and a strong personal bias that can not stand up to the naked light of day.

        Will some good come of it Major? Perhaps so, will it end here? I seriously doubt it.

        • recce1

          Reagan never declared war against another country without even consulting one member of Congress. Reagan never said the federal government has the right to force citizens to purchase a favored product from favored companies at favored prices. Reagan never authorized the execution of an American citizen without a trial. Reagan never bowed down to a foreign potentate.

          Mr. Obama has done all four and more.

          As for the Gen. Lavelle affair, I refueled bombers in… well, let’s just say somewhere we never were.

          By the way, the Woodstock Festival took place at a farm about 40 miles from Woodstock. I lived about 10 miles southeast in Kingston, NY and have been to Woodstock a number of times. It’s a nice artists’ town.

      • Deerinwater

        Ah! Yes, I do recall some of this now. So the Armed Service Committee has a long memory and block it. I wonder why? loose ends, still too much liability and embarrassment, opening up a can of worms best left sealed, a rabbit trail to leads to other parties and places.

        ” However, the Senate Armed Services Committee declined to vote on the nomination, allowing it to expire without action at the end of the legislative session.”

        In Gen. Lavelle case, I’m not sure that he was aware he was stepping into the “bite”. Needless to say Abrams failed to throw him a rope or Nixon either.

        The life of a soldier, an expendable human resources. We all know it, but don’t like to think about it much.

        thanks for the refresher Major, did you play any part in this event?

  • Steven

    Mr.Oba…Is no more than a common Thug,and should be legally treated as one. So should anyone who knew about”Project Gunrunner”,and attempted to cover it up,or claim they had no knowledge,,that would be you Mr.Eric Holder of the DOJ,along with your CLUELESS lackies.

  • jeff

    he took an oath. you don’t have to like Obama, he is the commander in chief. if every one who has served this country in the greatest military on earth,disagreed with the president at the time or thought his orders were unconstitutional. we would be speaking German,Russian Japanese or with an English accent. ha should be discharged and triad for treason. that’s why we have checks and balances in the Constitution. just read the oath. and you have no choice but to agree. § 502. Enlistment oath: who may administer
    (a) Enlistment Oath.— Each person enlisting in an armed force shall take the following oath:
    “I, XXXXXXXXXX, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God.”
    (b) Who May Administer.— The oath may be taken before the President, the Vice-President, the Secretary of Defense, any commissioned officer, or any other person designated under regulations prescribed by the Secretary of Defense.

  • John Gregory

    Sergeant Stein is a Class A jerk. “unlawful orders from the President”? Freedom of speech? A Marine? Oh, no Mister Stein – I’ve KNOWN and saved Marines – and you are no Marine! Orders come down through layers of Command – I don’t think the President is going to be contacting you about returning theater wide missile fire. Gosh! Who know’s what YOUR decision would be since you can’t seem to get into a ditch to fight along side your own platoon – let alone division. Seems you had no such concerns when your CinC was WHITE. Now that he’s BLACK, there’s some concern. Tea-Party? They’ve never gotten shot at in anger either. Yet you’re so fast to align yourself with them. Census for 1940 came out last week. See all the Congressmen with their hands up when asked who had son’s in the Military? Look – give a good look at your Tea-Party folks. None of their hands went up when asked. Actually, to be truthful – not many did. And one wonders if some members raised their hands considering cousins, nieces or nephews just to look good. Guess, Mr. Stein just couldn’t get into college or – since it’s all volunteer decided to join – but with conditions – those that haven’t happened yet or in the History of our Nation.

    • recce1

      Please quit playing the race card. The UCMJ states a service member can’t obey an unlawful order, even if it comes down from the president thru the chain of command. It was put in there because of the Nuremberg Trials. You do remember those don’t you?

      The Tea Party isn’t a political party nor are its only members in Congress. In addition, many Tea Party members not only have sons and daughters in the military, many also have served in the military.

      Also, I remember quite a few service people who refused to follow orders concerning Vietnam under Presidents JFK, Nixon, and LBJ. And when it came to the percentage of groups who refused it was by far blacks. Was that racist?

      The “conditions” that military members make is to support and defend the Constitution against all enemies, both foreign AND domestic. They didn’t take an oath to defend a piece of land, a political party, or a leader.

      Those conditions you say didn’t happen have happened during the Civil War, the American-Indian Wars, WW I and II, the Vietnam War and in Europe. You should learn some history.

  • Michael Hallczuk

    He know the rules. He should have learned to keep his mouth closed till he was discharged.

  • amy brown

    Listen – you all know we are living in very unusual times – our president lacks the character for leadership. It has nothing to do with rules at this time. Are you totally ignorant of the situation in Japan? If they get a 7. earthquake the entire northern hemisphere is going to be severely affected. Obama ordered the nitwit corporate media to not talk about Fukishima or 9-11. Well you cannot ignore it now – go to -check it out – I read this every day for radiation news since our sucky 1984 Orwellian Obama world denies us the ability to learn what is a danger. Good for the Marine Man – you have guts – this is not the 20th Century this is the new age and we must do what we can to ensure our children do not grow up in the New World Order thanks to those crooks Bush and Bush – so praises to you – lets pray there are no earthquakes and do what we can to be strong and fight that new world order – it is totalitarianism with the death of millions – screw that- let the Malthusians kill themselves.

    • Deerinwater

      Clearly you have picked your “hero’s” and employed your Kentucky windage to explain and justify it on a global scale.

      Hope you don’t mind if other’s do the same.

  • Deerinwater

    Well, we can talk all day about what Reagan didn’t do I suppose. But I seriously doubt if he got Congressional approval in The 1986 April 15th Operation El Dorado Canyo. As secret as it had to be, I would not think so, maybe a handful knew. While It’s success alone mitigated any impropriety.

    Then too, by regulation or deregulation the Federal government is subjecting people to select markets by mandate. While it is true current heath care reform is “demanding” people take the responsibility for their health care through chosen markets as well. A rose by any other name would smell just as sweet. I find it odd that we fret over people not taking responsibility for their heath care needs so we demand it and found in fault for demanding.

    After years of select Americans enjoying government subsidies and preferential treatment and consideration predicated on employee/employer relationship while the rest of Americans are left out of the loop, it’s not that difficult to understand this opposition to ‘any’ change in the current system, never mind that it’s not working well for everyone.

    This Foreign Affair event of Reagan circumventing a sitting administration in it efforts to release Americans held hostage for party affiliation gains didn’t sit too well with me while i’m left to admit the means did justify the final conclusion.

    I could levy many other “claim” in some feeble effort to counter your point Major. As valid as they might be, I have no desire to trash or tarnish Reagan’s statesman victories in an effort to defend the current President. That’s just not my way, stalemates being seen as shallow victories.

    It’s lonely at the 1st chair position. I admire any man with the sand that attempt it and only more so by those that do well.

    • recce1

      Reagan wasn’t a perfect president by any means. But overall I think he was good for the country.

      Reagan did inform senior members of Congress before bombing Libya. Plus he invoked the 1973 War Powers Resolution Act. However, did those actions meet the strict interpretation of the Constitution? I’m an old curmudgeon stick in the mud so I’ll admit I don’t think they did.

      As I wrote elsewhere, no president after FDR has gone to war in a Constitutional manner, i.e., gotten a formal Declaration of War from Congress. However, a lot of the blame must rest with Congress for not using the power of the purse or threat of impeachment to rein in presidents.

      The issue of the constitutionality of the Healthcare Law is perhaps one of the most critical supreme Court cases in our lifetime. The question actually has nothing to do with healthcare. It would be a disaster if the law stood just like in the Dred Scott case.

      What is at issue is whether or not the Federal government can thru the Establishment, Commerce, Necessary and Proper, and Supremacy Clauses make the Federal government supreme in all matters, bypass States, and force people to do what it wants them to do. Can it end the basic premises of our form of government, i.e., federalism with checks and balances. Does Article 1 Section 8 and the Tenth Amendment to the Constitution have any meaning or application? Do we continue with an eisegesis interpretation of the Constitution or do we return to an exegesis interpretation?

      In other words, can the Federal government do anything it believes is good or beneficial for the people even if it’s not allowed in the Constitution? As Jefferson wrote, “A Congress with power to do whatever would be for the good of the United States… as they would be the sole judges of the good or evil, it would be also a power to do whatever evil they please.”

      The SCOTUS has already ended private property rights in America. The Federal government has failed to protect citizens from illegal search and seizures. It’s failing to protect our borders and is suing States that try to do so. Should the SCOTUS decide that the Tenth Amendment is no longer enforceable then I believe the sovereign States and the people should dust off the Declaration of Independence and “In questions of power, then, let no more be heard of confidence in man, but bind him down from mischief by the chains of the Constitution.”

      As for Reagan’s involvement in the Iran Hostage situation, he didn’t break the law as Speaker Pelosi did during the Bush administration. Reagan never went to Iran or negotiated directly with them. Pelosi went to Syria against the will of the Bush administration and negotiated with the Syrians, basically telling them to wait until after the election as Obama would win. This was a violation of the Logan Act. It’s the same act that John Kerry violated, although in his case he committed treason and was given a less than honorable discharge, later upgraded to honorable by Carter.

      • Deerinwater

        “The Logan Act is a United States federal law that forbids unauthorized citizens from negotiating with foreign governments. It was passed in 1799 and last amended in 1994. Violation of the Logan Act is a felony, punishable under federal law with imprisonment of up to three years.”

        “The Speaker of the House of Representatives is second in the presidential line of succession, becoming President of the United States if the president and Vice President are unable to serve. Some scholars, however, have argued that this provision of the succession statute is unconstitutional.
        The Constitution does not require that the Speaker be an elected Member of Congress. No non-member has ever been elected Speaker.”

        “Pelosi went to Syria against the will of the Bush administration and negotiated with the Syrians, basically telling them to wait until after the election as Obama would win. This was a violation of the Logan Act.”

        Only if you see the speaker as an unauthorized citizen Major. And what she “negotiated” was asking Syria to stop supporting terrorist activity against Israel on the part of Palestine. Then too, her actions was out in the open, she didn’t sneak around like Reagan and his operatives did.

        “W’s” administrations international politics and policy was a transitivity of the highest order. This compelled other statesmen in to action for shear damage control.

        Many seem to believe that “O” enjoyed going around the world bowing and scraping , kissing butt and stroking feathers to renew old ties and relationships?

        There’s been a lot of International bridges to mend and build due to the negative influence that 8 years of the likes of Dick Chaney, Karl Rove and W Bush and Company. To think “O” might have enjoyed it, is selling him way short.

        Yes, Mr. Reagan was guilty of many things that were not against the law. It seems that Wall Street Bankster have enjoyed a field day walking that same thin line.

        Reagan wrapped himself in a a shroud of “plausible deniability” which was as convincing as Clinton’s, “It depends on what the meaning of “is” is”

        • recce1

          The Logan Act makes no distinction between a regular citizen, a citizen elected to the government, or a citizen appointed to the government. I fell into the latter category.

          The law prohibits any citizen from negotiating with a foreign country without administration permission and makes it more egregious if one does so against the express disapproval of the Executive Branch. Speaker Pelosi did just that. In addition, what she said publicly about her discussions and what she said privately is up to serious debate.

          As I mentioned, Kerry also violated the Logan Act but it was in wartime, thus amounting to treason. He fell into my category when he broke the law.

          As for those who argue that the 25th Amendment is unconstitutional they forget that an Amendment AMENDS the Constitution. That can be dangerous as seen from the 16th and 17th Amendments. Treaties can be even more dangerous.

          Your comment about Pres. Bush’s foreign policy is a non-sequitur. A member of the opposition has no constitutional or legal right to negotiate with a foreign country no matter how much they disagree with the president’s policy. The only recourse for the opposition in the event they believe the policy is unacceptable and can’t convince enough of the president’s party to join them is to resort to trying to impeach a president.

          As for a Representative not being elected, that doesn’t happen. If a representative dies or resigns, the governor of their states calls for a special election.

          I might add, we had a Democratic congressman who negotiated with the Sandinistas during Reagan’s term and gave them Top Secret information resulting in the downing of a reconnaissance aircraft and the death of its crew. As a former reconnaissance officer you can guess what I believed the penalty should have been.

          • Deerinwater

            Interesting events, so the current administration has the Logan Act at his disposal as well.

            Making no distinction leaves it open for the courts to decide if such charges are levied. Considering 43 was not but beyond the threat of impeachment himself, I’m not sure how that might have went down.

            So much of government business rest on the “need to know” basis. Leaked information compromises human resources and programs. You weigh this against the desire for transparency there is always this conflict , “they are hiding something” ~ well yea! blabber mouth!

            We have spoke of two different way the Constitution has been interpreted exegesis or
            eiegesis , the former being preferred, offing a more accurate interpretation of actual ‘intent”. While I find it worrisome these same people would find justification for doing something only because the Law ‘didn’t’ say such acts as unlawful.

            This seems to place us in the position to craft laws to frame conduct of every conceivable human endeavor. A taunting task, I really don’t think that is possible.

            Have you read “The right and the power” by Leon Jaworski?

          • recce1

            Absolutely yes, the Obama administration has the right to seek sanctions if someone violates the Logan Act. By the way, it’s the DOJ that would press charges and the courts that would adjudicate them.

            I believed that Bush should have been impeached for going to war without a formal declaration of war from Congress. As I mentioned, I’m an old fuddy duddy about that. I also think that SecDef Rumsfeld should have been impeached for his mismanagement of the war and not listening to his generals in the first place, and so should have Attorney General Gonzales been impeached.

            As for need to know, are you implying our classified information program is too complicated? I hope so! Too much information is classified at the wrong levels to protect politicians derrieres rather than the country. As one who had the authority to classify information I know what I speak of.

            As for drafting laws about every conceivable behavior, that is the modus operandi of progressives and socialists. The Founders rejected such a concept. They specifically created a limited Federal government with enumerated powers and left the rest up to the States and the people.

            I haven’t read “The right and the power” by Jaworski. Nevertheless, I believe that Congress didn’t go far enough over the Watergate Affair. It could have, and I think should have, rejected Nixon’s resignation and then impeached him. I have no doubt that the Republican controlled Senate would have voted for impeachment. Here’s an interesting sidelight. Do you know who one of the lead lawyers was in drafting the articles of impeachment against Nixon? It was Hillary Diane Rodham, later of Clinton fame.

      • Deerinwater

        ” A member of the opposition has no constitutional or legal right to negotiate with a foreign country no matter how much they disagree with the president’s policy.”

        Well that exactly what Reagan and the GOP pundits did in the run up to the 1980 general election.

        So it’s been tit for tat between the right and left every since you and I have reached the age to “think we knew” what was going on. And of course this battle stated long before you and I arrived. American history has been ‘lively”. The 1700 and 1800 century was full of intense political drama. Lincoln, Jackson, Randolph Hearst, Peabody, Grant, the roster is long.

        • recce1

          Reagan and his associates didn’t go to Iran and negotiate with them. At least no credible evidence has ever been uncovered. There were charges that Reagan wanted Iran to hold off releasing them so he could look good. As far as is known they just made public insinuations of what might happen to Iran if they didn’t release the hostages. That’s not a violation of the Logan Act.

          As for a “lively” American history, you’ve got that right.

          • Deerinwater

            “That’s not a violation of the Logan Act”

            Right ~ Proof! I understand that life is all a matter of “happenstance” ~ that we are all just Victim’s of premeditated carelessness. LOL!

            fair enough Major. ~

            In a hard run today,~ gotta go. I’ll see if i can’t craft a little premeditated carelessness up of my own.

            hang tough,

    • Deerinwater

      As for your argument regarding the 10th amendment, well made, I appreciated your insights.

      I believe that the courts do make determinations on whats good or bad for the nation.

      I would prefer opinions to my involvement, when and where I elected to spend my money as well. Thinking along the lines your are “covered” or you are left to fend for yourself with individual coverage, go out in the woods and die, be a burden on whoever and long as I don’t have to see it and smell it. But as sure as it might be that way, you and I’d been having to smell it.

      The magic word is “affordable” minimal heath care, every human being needs it at some point in time. Why wait until you are sick to start thinking about, if the most basic care can be made affordable where more people will be inclined to engage a system, this would be a good thing. If nothing else, help easy someones passing. Few of us Americans can afford quality insurance today, we must settle for what we can afford, if you can find someone that will sell it to you and it be worth the paper that it’s written on.

  • one nation under god


    • Deerinwater

      Well? There you have it! I’m convinced!

      • recce1

        I think “one nation under god” is a progressive agent provocateur trying to pass as a right-wing yahoo. I can’t imagine anyone posting who is that inreudlite. It’s either that or some mental hospital let one of their charges get to a computer.

      • Deerinwater

        Hmm? you’re not claiming him ugh? Well I can’t imagine why? He seems to fit in well with his flaming demagoguery, discursive commentary and chapped a$$ets.

      • Deerinwater

        He could never grace Huff Post, much less BBC, they’d block him in a heartbeat, so like you, I’m at a loss knowing where he came from.

        But if you can tell me what he is, I tell you what to feed him.

  • recce1

    It’s almost impossible to prove a negative. However, here goes an attempt.

    In 18 USC § 953, the codification of the Logan Act, it states: “Any citizen of the United States, wherever he may be, who, without authority of the United States, directly or indirectly commences or carries on any correspondence or intercourse with any foreign government or any officer or agent thereof, in relation to any disputes or controversies with the United States, or to defeat the measures of the United States, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than three years, or both.

    This section shall not abridge the right of a citizen to apply, himself or his agent, to any foreign government or the agents thereof for redress of any injury which he may have sustained from such government or any of its agents or subjects.”


    This act doesn’t reference speaking about our government’s foreign relations either in a positive or negative manner. To claim otherwise would make anyone who criticizes an administration over its foreign policy a criminal. All news channel, commentators, and news media criticism of a president’s foreign policies could be shut down. It would abridge the First Amendment. Of course it wouldn’t surprise me if Mr. Obama would love to have such power.

    Obama has requested the authority to turn off the internet or to restrict access to certain government disapproved sites much like Communist China does. He has used the IRS to harass conservative non-profit organization. When the Fairness Doctrine failed to pass Congress he called for a Diversity Ownership Doctrine. He claims the right to have American citizens executed without trial. He’s now claiming the right to detain any American.

  • GI JOE

    I went into the army to protect the rights we have in this country, to include freedom of speech.I always thought that the truth would always pervail, we need to take a look around us, something needs to change – not the change we were promised

    • John Wilch (TSgt, USAF Ret.)

      Thanks for you service, Joe. As you can see from my name I too served, even though I ended up retiring for the USAF I started out in the Army by enlisting in Dec ’63. Served in ‘Nam from Jun ’68 – Jun ’69 with A Co. 228th Avn Bn, 1st Cavalry Division (AM) as a Door Gunner. Even though I am retired I would put the uniform on again if I was asked again because that oath I took in ’63 was for the rest of my life.

      I agree with you something has to change and that is fire Obumer this November and hopefully along with those idiots in the Senate and Congress. Like Reid and Palosi and any other idiots or even RINOS.


      • Deerinwater

        So ? what rights has this president denied you?

        • John Wilch (TSgt, USAF Ret.)

          Sir, you must have been one of those idiots that tried to frag someone and got caught. Instead of throwing your a– in jail like where you belonged, they just booted your a– out. Oh, were you also one of those idiots that loved to smoke some of that wacky-weed with shinny little bits of horse, I ran into alot of those dopeheads while stationed at Long Binh and later Bear Cat.

          You asked what right has El Supremo taken away: Try Freedom of Speech he did that through a Presidentual Decree that banned protesting in front of a Political Rally, guess which one. If you said Republican you would be wrong. That decree makes it unlawful to even hold up a sign across the street that was contra to what was being said inside that rally.

          • Deerinwater

            Never touched the stuff, ~ not until I returned and then only briefly. The girls seem to like it! The stuff make you stupid, never was one that seen I needed any help.

            Actually, three bronze stars and three strips in a12 month tour is not exactly misbehaving but you can rant on all you want too, Sound like someone must have lifted you up out of your bunk though. They did that to a$$holes as I recall, that and other things more severe.

            I was offered 6 to reup, so in two years I came close to being where you retired after 20 plus years. So much for your pointed insightful personal commentary jab, which by the way shads more light on you then it does I ~ T Sgt.

            And if that is the only freedom that you have lost, I’d say that you are in pretty good shape. The OWS ran into much the same issues of conflict and point of contention. The right to assemble, right to speak conflicting with other people right to not be harassed while attending a function at a predetermined, designated point in time.

            Did you stop to notice how that worked out for them? If you did, it’s most likely you were pleased with the legal stance the authorities chose and elected to enforce. Basically putting an end to their little pity party, scattering them like yard chickens.

            So you feel that your more deserving and more entitled special consideration with freedom to assemble and freedom to speak, yell, scream, shout, bull horn because why? What is it that makes your pity party command special consideration,civil tolerance and more sympathy than OWS activists or Kent State Students, or hungry WWl vets in tent cities for that matter?

            Your “rights” end where another persons nose begins and we can increase that distance as prudence dictated. It happens every day, in every city in America and has since before you were born Sgt.

            So what other freedom have you lost? Put it in words so we can all view and discuss it well.

    • recce1

      You’re correct. However, if those in the military are to speak out, they must first choose their battles carefully and then do it in a respectful and legal manner.


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