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Living Off The Land

October 13, 2011 by  

To prepare for a long-term situation in which your emergency stores are going to run out, you need to know how to hunt, gather and forage in your area.

For hunting you should have a .22-caliber rifle for shooting small game, a shotgun and a large caliber rifle like a .308 or a .30-06.

Ideal ammunition for the .22 would be both .22 longs and .22 shorts. The shorts are sufficient for killing small game like squirrels and small rodents, and they make a soft report when fired. This often gives you the opportunity to take multiple shots, if you miss, before the prey is frightened off. The .22 longs would be better suited for shooting larger game like opossums and raccoons.

The shotgun can be loaded with bird shot for shooting birds, larger shot like #4 for squirrels or rabbits or buck shot for shooting deer or, if necessary, to ward off predators. The large rifle will also kill deer, and it can be used for protection as well.

Of course, squirrels, rabbits and deer readily come to mind when considering what to bag for edible game. But the truth is, almost any mammal, bird or reptile is nutritional; and any qualms about eating things like opossum, raccoons, snakes, frogs and turtles — or even cats, dogs or horses — can be overcome when the belly is empty and the need is great. Here’s a word of caution, however: Avoid box turtles and toads, as they can contain toxins that can make your sick.

Fish is an excellent source of protein and is easily caught with right equipment. Again, preparation is the key. A rod and reel with a supply of lures, hooks, lead weights and floats will make your fishing trip more productive.

When you need live bait, you can dig earthworms or catch crickets, grasshoppers or caterpillars. These are easy to find in the warm months, but become more difficult to find when the weather turns cold.

You can also set up trot lines, which will probably be a more productive use of your time. Trot lines can consist of nothing more than a long cord that runs across a stream, river or slough in a lake. The line can contain a number of hooks on separate lines dangling from the main cord. Just bait each hook, leave it for several hours and return. You will catch a lot of catfish, some turtles and a few other species of fish, depending on your location.

If you are fishing a large body of water, tie one end to a tree or other structure and anchor the other end in the water with a brick or something else heavy to weigh it down.

Jug fishing is another great way to catch catfish in large bodies of water. Simply tie a line to a jug (a plastic milk jug is ideal) with a weight at the other end. Attach a small line with a hook about a foot above the weight and another line with hook one to two feet above that. Bait the hooks and drop the jugs in the water.

If you set out several with different line lengths and different baits, you can determine which combination produces the best results and increase your catch.

In a future article, we will discuss foraging for plants.


Bob Livingston

is an ultra-conservative American and author of The Bob Livingston Letter™, founded in 1969. Bob has devoted much of his life to research and the quest for truth on a variety of subjects. Bob specializes in health issues such as nutritional supplements and alternatives to drugs, as well as issues of privacy (both personal and financial), asset protection and the preservation of freedom.

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  • FreedomFighter

    Research the American Made? Ruger 10/22 as weapon of choice, and its many after market parts with high availability.

    High quality American made pump shotgun is my choice, unless you have access to an AA12, then get that.

    Any American MADE large caliber rifle will do the job, so many quality choices.

    For fishing would add a small John boat, and if near both salt an fresh – tackle for both.

    Laus Deo
    Semper Fi

  • bob

    have you ever read The Mother Earth News, or Countryside? both have a lot of info on subjects of interest to anyone interested in self reliance.

  • Dan

    Depending on your area I would hope a prudent person would build up a food supply to preclude the need to hunt for game. Simply for the reason is that in most area it won’t take long for the game in the area to become non-existent. Imagine a starving population all hunting for game especially in areas where there is a proliferation of hunters. The only exception I see is fowl. If things are that bad you also need to be aware that while you are hunting game there may be others who may be waiting to waylay you to take away your meal and they can find you based on the noise of your shooting. Fishing is a different story because fish reproduce at a faster rate but even lakes and ponds can be over fished in a short time.
    Having said all that it still is a viable option because nothing beats fresh meat in a diet. Birds and fowl should be pretty prolific but it does take a bunch of them to feed a family of 3-4.

    • Aix Sponsa

      Grandpa always said that “you need one year of cash and three months of food on hand. If you don’t, you are broke and don’t realize it.”

  • Dan

    I do totally agree with Bob’s choice of weapons and at a mimimum everyone should at least own a 12 gage for home defense if they aren’t proficient in weapons.

    • Aix Sponsa

      Bad choice for home defense. Too long to swing around indoors. Even #8 shot shoots holes like slugs through walls at indoor distances. Look for a Taurus Judge 410/45 revolver handgun.

      • socaldano

        12 gauge defender shotguns (8 shot, short barrel) Remington 870 or Mossburg 500 series…reliable and cheap and cheap to shoot, not too long to swing around indoors, lots of choices of cheap ammo, and perfect for stopping someone trying to breach the premises. Coupled with 9mm or larger handgun is a complete home defense, unless you need and can use a sniper rifle. When someone is breaching your home are you really stupid enough to worry about blowing a hole in your wall?
        next add in a .22 Ruger 10/22 with thousands of rounds of ammo for minimal defense and getting that rare rabbit or squirrel that survives (better to catch the bunnies and raise them in cages in your garage for long term meat and furtizer)

    • skip

      What is best for beauty shops and hair stylists?

  • http://NA Joe Hooker

    I’d add a few things…
    1, archery equipment, or a crossbow. Think silent hunting.
    2, plenty of fishline & fishooks. For fashioning trotlines to take larger quantities of fish, while you don’t need to sit there & watch your line.
    3, steel traps. These can keep on procureing meat & fur 24 hours of the day, no matter what else you might be doing.
    4, Some regular wood & wire rat traps. For squirrel, waterfowl, & several other meat animals, these are tough to beat!
    I’d leave out Ruger’s 10-.22! It’s a great rifle, but .22 shorts & .22 CB caps need to be loaded singly. I’d go for one of Henry Repeating Arms Co’s. lever action .22s, just as accurate, & will digest all .22 ammo interchangably & reliably. With the shotgun, for most all of todays American made pump action shotguns you can also abtain fully rifled slug barrells , extending their range to 250 yards or so for deer sized game. With center fire rifles, I’d steer away from autoloaders :-( They’ll kick out your empy shells at mighty inconvenient places at times!

    • FreedomFighter

      I like the lever action also, went with Ruger for aftermarket parts.

      Laus Deo
      Semper Fi

    • Aix Sponsa

      Fact= Few people are competent enough to take shots beyond 80-100 yards with ANY caliber of long gun, even with a scope. A lever 30/30 is great and easy to handle. A lever .22 is competent for light game. Of course, if you ever have to steal ammo, .223 and .308 will be the most likely found, followed closely by the 7.62×39 russian AK.

  • OneDamnAngryAmerican

    A firearm used for hunting is “not” a “weapon”! STOP GIVING THE ANTI-HUNTERS MORE AMMUNITION FOR THEIR CAUSE!

    This will probably be in your next article, BUT, anything that a mammal eats, a human can eat without any adverse effects.

    Next time you are out walking around, away from concrete and humans, watch the wildlife to see how and what they eat. Then, go over and look at what it was they were eating. Also, if they went poo-poo, look at their poop, so that in the future, if you see it on the ground, and it is “steaming” you can identify the animal that left it there, and if wanted, you can track it to hunt.

    My survival tip for the day!

    • FreedomFighter

      In a SHTF world, the city population spreads to country sides in search of food, hunting may take on new meaning, as in hungry zombies eat what?

      “anything that a mammal eats, a human can eat without any adverse effects.”

      That includes you, sir. I will be carrying a weapon.

      Laus Deo
      Semper Fi

      • Aix Sponsa

        When TSHTF the wild animal population will disappear rapidly. They’ll either be dead or hiding. Watch out for those city slickers in the woods. Deer season here sounds like VietNam with the whizzers through the tress.

    • DaveH

      I think it’s the other way around, Angry. Several decades ago, the NRA shot gun-owners in the foot by treating the right to bear arms as a hunting issue when in fact the Second Amendment is about self-protection from an out-of-control Government or other criminals. Since most people don’t hunt, a large portion of the population just didn’t get the significance of the right to own guns. If the NRA had approached it as a right to protection from an out-of-control government or criminals, I think they would have had a lot more power of persuasion.

      • independant thinker

        It must have been SEVERAL decades ago because as long as I have been a member it has been self defence and defence against an out of control government with hunting considered a bonus.

    • independant thinker

      “BUT, anything that a mammal eats, a human can eat without any adverse effects.”

      Not totaly true. Squirrels and deer can eat certain foods that will make a human sick. One example is certain mushrooms that squirrels eat the squirrel has a natural immunity to the effects of the mushroom humands do not have.

    • Arlie Austin

      Not true! squirrels can eat horse apples and humans cannot! deer can eat acorns humans can only eat them once the tannic acid has been boiled out of them first! there are many plants that can be eaten but only after proper preparation! just because animal can eat it, doesn’t make it edible for humans

    • socaldano

      Recent Supreme Court rulings indicated the 2nd amendment was for SELF DEFENSE, and that the Handgun is currently the American #1 choice for self defense.
      So we are allowed to have weapons for self defense which double as sporting guns for hunting or target shooting.

      The anti gunners either don’t want guns period everything else is an excuse. Or they suffer from Bambi syndrome, where they are all about emotion and would not know a fact if it slapped them in the face.

  • oldbill

    I also have a good single pump air rifle good for 1000′ per second on a .177. The advantage to this is reduced noise and it is more than adequate for small mammals and ground birds. The only heavy rifle I have is a black powder 50 caliber carbine. I have over 500 caps and 25 pounds of 3fffg, several bullet molds, and three hundred pounds of lead. I also have an assortment of black powder handguns. I have a 44 Ruger Old Army which loads modern 45 jacketed bullets. I have three 22 rifles, one set up with a deer scope and a Ruger Mark III pistol, and perhaps 10,000 rounds from CB Shorts to hypervelocity LRs. The CB shorts are as quiet as a silencer (they are much quieter than the air gun). And for personal protection I have two 45 ACP handguns and enough components to make 3,000 rounds. The reason I like the black powder is that I can make gunpowder if I have to using urine, egg yokes and charcoal, and if necessary, I can use patched rocks as bullets. I don’t really need more than 500 caps because I would use centerfire and rimfires first. In the shotguns I have 12, 20, and 410 with an assortment of slugs, buckshot, bb, #2, #4, and #6 shot. I am a gunsmith and a former Marine Marksman. I have been gardening for fifty years. I have been trapping for twenty five years. KC Masterpiece is my preference for roasted cat or dog.

    And just to make sure we are tuned in together, I keep twenty to thirty pounds of plain and sea salt on hand. This is often over looked.

    • FreedomFighter

      “KC Masterpiece is my preference for roasted cat or dog”

      A well trained hunting dog is worth twice its poundage in gold, cats on the otherhand…

      Laus Deo
      Semper Fi

    • Aix Sponsa

      When TSHTF an important tactic is MOVING to another location. If they come for your guns, you can’t move fast enough. Everyone knows you have guns and if they get your guns, where will you get more? 3 common weapons with common ammunition that you can grab and go with are far more important than 40 guns and 300 pounds of ammo that you can’t do anything with. Think 44mag rifle and 44mag revolver. (only l one ammo to carry) .22 rimfire rifle and revolver for CBs as well. Shotgun that you can handle? All the fancy schtuff is usually next to worthless in a crisis situation. Reality bites. BTDT.

  • Dog Man 1

    Everyone is right on target with their suggestions and comments.. Don’t leave out the sling, sling shot, knives, hatchet and blowgun; carry a small spool of wire for traps and such. Fire starters and martial arts are pretty handy, as well. And practice. If you have no one to train with, visualize. Leave no trace or evidence behind. Always respect nature and she’ll be kind to you. Semper Fi

    • Aix Sponsa

      The beautiful part is that there will be so many incompetents wandering around that the “covert trained who move silently and leave no trail” will be ignored by the persuers. Somebody has to survive to replenish the earth.

  • Gardner Behrends

    I suggest getting a permit to carry, a 45 auto for personal protection, a 22 conversion kit to fit the 45 for small game, and a 30 cal high capacity auto rifle for big game and unfriendly social gatherings. A supply of ammo and reloading components gives you independence and something to barter. Potable water is a priority. Purchase a hand grinder for flour. Whole wheat, corn, oats, millet, rice, dried peas, lentils, beans, and nuts are inexpensive and store easily. Sugar, salt, pepper, and yeast make food more palatable. Canned foods make good barter. Who knows, maybe the next monetary unit will be a roll of toilet paper?

    • Aix Sponsa

      I agree but few will ever be competent with a 45. An eyeball hit with a .22 is better than a miss with a 44 magnum. We’re a lot closer to needing all this survivalist schtuff than most of us realize. I betting on a looting and rioting within 3 years, and a full blown civil war within 5. Does anybody realize that the US food supply reserve is 3 weeks? A grid takedown with no food deliveries will make people pretty edgy in 3-4 days.

      • FreedomFighter

        I agree, it will be far more brutal than most Americans can even imagine, the death toll will be staggering.

        God willing, the hand of five with me, powder dry, we will prevail.

        Laus Deo
        Semper Fi

  • MJ

    In Texas we learn all this at an early age. Do not care to hunt nor fish but, I do know how.

    • Aix Sponsa

      Survivalism is waaaaaay beyond hunting and fishing.

  • Aix Sponsa

    Mr. Bob, thanks for broaching this story. It’s like the starfish. Facts are that if a person lives in a semi-rural area say 8 miles from a town of 6,000 population, WTSHTF 200 of those people will be milling around YOUR local area in 4-5 days. Many of these will be wannabes with a minimal real knowledge of surviving. When they come to your house, what will you do, specifically? Cold dead fingers is BS. Where are YOU gonna go? What will you take? What happens if you are 300 miles from home WTSHTF?? and you can’t get back there?

  • s c

    After scanning the above comments, it looks as though no utopian(s) bothered to send in any response(s). That seems to mean that survival, living off the land, being independent and/or not needing Big Government just don’t “rate” with utopians.
    Oh, well, time will tell. I can’t help wondering if Obummer ever got his hands dirty by cleaning fish or gathering branches/twigs for a fire. I’d better not say anything about his ability to boil water.

    • Christin

      s c,

      The Liberal Utopia is a Fantasy, therefore they can’t fathom the Reality of the evil coming their way by the ones they sing praises to (Hard Left)… every thing will be sunshine and lollipops …and if it isn’t they won’t think about it (DENIAL) because it is just to scary …what the conservatives might do if they actually bring back FREEDOM, LIBERTY, Rights granted by God, Equal Justice, Limited Government, personal responsibility, peace, and prosperity.


    REALLY ! From most of these postings I would bet the majority of these fire arms have dust or rust on them . Do your family a favor go to a indoor range ask them to examine your weapon to see if it is safe to fire . Then rent a booth and see if you can hit something the size of a rabbit at 75 feet if not stock up on some provisions , because you probably have no clue how to field dress the game you just shot .

  • Graystroke

    1- Ruger 10/22 w/ scope for samll varmits
    2- Winchester 1300 Defender 8-rounds for home defense (no longer avail. sigh)
    3- Benelli Nova 12ga w/ chokes-turkey, and other fowls
    4-Remington 700 308 Will use NATO 7.62
    5-Pistol of UR choice 9mm or 45 due to NATO avil. makes lower prices vice 10mil or 40 cal.
    5- Scopes of UR choice talk to ur dealer for help and laser target acquisition tool for pistol & shotgun.

    God bless the elect….may He awaken the rest quickly

  • AimSmall

    If you’re afoot by chance or choice, you must consider priorities, and be aware that you’re limited by how much you can personally carry, under relentless, stressful situations. The un-initiated backpacker should limit their total pack-load to 20% of their body weight, which will drop drastically in a personal survival scenario of depleted calorie intake compared to a dramatic increase in expended energy. Ammunition is basically LEAD, and if I have to choose, and we all must, I’m taking my Katadyn hand pump water filter/sanitizer, before I take an equivalent weight of extra ammo in my backpack. Priorities are water, food, secured shelter, and firearms to defend the first three. Navy Seals employ 9MM pistols and train for head shots due to body armor, this hyper-velocity round is relatively smaller in size and weight, allowing more rounds to be carried. How many adversaries will continue their aggressive activities with one 22 LR round ricocheting around inside their brain pan? (NONE). My number one firearm priority is a 22 LR, polymer framed pistol, with optics, and a 500 round brick of ammo, which costs less than $20. Of course I’m thinking “LITE”, no notice, grab and go, BOB, (bug-out-bag), basics for myself and each member of my family. I admit to also carrying an Optic enhanced AR in 5.56, (as opposed to 7.62 NATO), for the same logistical, back-pack humping, limitations. Start with a manageable BOB as a basic SHTF plan, cause eventually you’ll most likely end up hoofing it over hill and dale. Then assemble your second list of anticipated provisions for motorized mobile transport situations, and your final list for the HARD SITE STAND. Remember roads easily become parking lots. I highly suggest that you go to REI, rent some backpacking gear, and try a practice 6 hour walk-about, 3 hrs. hiking before lunch, 3 hrs. hiking after lunch, and cook your dinner, sleep overnight, and hike back out. You’ll have your eyes opened, it’s called a Reality Check.

  • John W. Safanek

    I was a professional outdoor guide for almost twenty years. I taught 30-40 day wilderness courses for Outward Bound, the Wilderness Education Association/NOLS, etc. in remote back country areas to young, relatively healthy, but mostly inexperienced students. I hold several master’s degrees in adventure education and recreation, was a certified Wilderness EMT, certified outdoor leader, certified mountaineering guide, certified canoe/kayak/raft guide, certified in search and rescue, and I have honestly lost track of all the other trainings I was exposed to over the years. I am retired now from guiding, and have become a Swiss-trained watchmaker by trade, but I still go on a solo backpacking trip with a dog, once a year for five days – just to keep my skills and mind set sharp, and because I really enjoy the intense physical and mental requirements of solo wilderness backpacking. It’s not for everyone. With that said, I have a couple of observations:

    1. BAD NEWS – Most Americans are NOT in the physical and/or mental shape to survive for long periods of time (months) in the wilderness or any other rural environment in relative isolation or even in small groups – WITH or without guns, food, shelter, skills, etc. Many lack the critical fitness (core strength and endurance), health/immune ‘stamina’, and OLD-fashioned ‘horse’ sense. Oh sure, some do. But most don’t. More importantly they would probably not be able to make the mental and emotional adjustment/transitions required, not and stay SANE. No way. Not without a miracle of some kind. The mind is really what can do you in. Plus, there is not enough wild food in rural and/or back country areas to support what is suggested in the above thread. No way. Most would starve to death the first winter, IF they made it that long. Mental toughness and strength of character would be the new ‘gold standard,’ along with an ability to recognize opportunities for ‘team work’ and ‘strategic’ compassion. Loners, isolationists, crazy people and ‘tough guys’ would NOT make it. No way. I’ve seen too many of those cold and/or bold types sit down and quit, just give up and/or drift off. And they’ll take you out as well if you let them or don’t redirect or shut them down. There is truly no substitute for LOTS of experience when it comes to dealing with humans who are WAY out of their respective comfort zones with seemingly no where to go and no way to get there on their own.
    2. GOOD NEWS – The total societal collapse preached about and seemingly hoped for by so many preppers has about a 2% chance of ever occurring. Our strength as a nation comes from our unique unity, our character, our resourcefulness, our communities, our compassion, our ability and willingness to share and help, and our ability to improvise and overcome. Always has. And all this would bubble back up to the surface pretty quick if need be. Smart people with good intentions will get it done or help you get it done. Keep reading.
    3. NEWS YOU CAN USE – Get to know your neighbors. Really get to know them. If you ever have a real crisis of any magnitude that effects your ‘world,’ then your neighbors will be the ones that come to your aid or not, and vice versa. All of you and US will be better for it, and better prepared in more ways than one could ever imagine, let alone read about on the www blogosphere of hype and worry.

  • AimSmall will help one to prepare, but you must accept the responsibility for your own survival preparations, by becoming a PREPPER in action, as well as in spirit or philosophy. Be Prepared, or suffer the consequences sheeple, read the Bible. We could learn a great deal from the Mormons concerning being prepared with emergency provisions, yet they must know that their high profile will certainly make them into targets of opportunity for those wolves who only prepare by stocking weapons. Ideally, a community, even a small community is better equipped to deal with the challenges that may come our way. Most probably, rural communes, where the common good of community survival is the primary concern, will survive best. How many of us are still young, full of piss and vinegar, psychologically invulnerable, and physically fit enough to fill the moccasins of the self sufficient Mountain Man? It takes Grit AND Skills to survive, and I suspect we’re a little short in the skills department, and a lot short in the physical conditioning column. Our ancestral Mountain Men still depended, periodically on resident American Indians and upon the manufactured provisions obtained from civilization. Few know what the future will bring, (Yes, Some Do). Are we talking brown-outs and food shortages, or the loss of utilities, or the collapse of the dollar, or plagues, or pestilence, or invasion, or War, or the termination of all Constitutionally guaranteed civil liberties and rights, or Armageddon, or the end of time and space as we know it, just what are we supposed to prepare for? All Governments, including our own, know more than we do, they have been preparing for something, and they are not disclosing this to us, in order to prevent panic. I suspect the time to panic is close, and I would feel better if I could do something productive to prepare for any eventuality, so I will give you some sound advice: Do what is necessary to meet your Creator with remorse, humility, and supplication. Ask Jesus Christ to forgive your sins, keep your powder dry, and don’t fire till you see the whites of their eyes. You will need Faith to Survive. Pray for guidance and Providence. All is NOT well, and I don’t believe there is an epidemic of Chicken Little Paranoia circulating Worldwide. Ignore the biased and censored Media, and listen to the back-channels of information obtained via the net, and non-syndicated radio, and 2 meter short-wave, and you will either become apprehensively concerned, or you’ll laugh like a Fool in denial. Get right with GOD, and then prepare as best as you can, utilizing whatever skills, knowledge, provisions, possessions, relationships, and affiliations you may have, in order to preserve your family’s health and life. You a grasshopper, or an ant? Long, cold, dark winter coming, so prepare your spirit/soul and then prepare to try and preserve your flesh, Brothers and Sisters. You could play ostrich and pretend you can neither hear, see, nor smell the big pink elephant sitting in your living room. Grow up, pull your head out of the sand and deal with it, before it is just too late. Be Prepared to survive, or to die, but at least cover all your bases. AimSmall-MissSmall

  • AimSmall

    This may require a visit to Wal-mart, or to your local gun store, or to your own stash, but I suggest you place a 500 round brick of 22 LR hollow point bullets on a counter top. Then, place beside that brick, ten stacked boxes, (containing 50 rounds each), of whatever center fire cartridge pistol round caliber you prefer to shoot. Now, you compare the total weight of 500 rounds of each, and then the volume of space each would require for personal cartage? Compare the cost? The rim-fire 22 Long Rifle will travel in excess of one mile. I call an accurate, reliable, lite weight polymer, 22 LR pistol and 500 rounds of high velocity, 22 LR, copper or brass plated, hollow-point ammo a reasonable base-line preparation, suitable for stand-by in my already packed BOB. If you don’t know about the “10 essentials” of backpacking, go to the REI website and use search to find the origin and content. You now know my eleventh essential for SHTF trekking.
    Is my profile as a Veteran, and a Christian Scoutmaster showing thru?
    Your initial refuge may be over-run, non-defendable, compromised, or
    less than adequate, and you may find your vehicle stolen, or out of fuel, incapacitated, or blocked in by other vehicles, and you may be limited to what you can carry on your own back, in order to relocate and find a safe and secure hard site. Each member of your party should have their own Bug-Out-Bag, appropriately loaded as to weight and content. Small children don’t carry heavy burdens, and shouldn’t have access to firearms, but they can carry freeze dried foods, spare clothes, rain-flys, a small stuffed animal, etc. Sometimes, when the earth moves, or the river rises, or the crops fail, or the natives become restless, or whatever man-made calamity might occur, it becomes necessary to relocate, so be prepared to perambulate with your possibles in tow, including an equalizer. AimSmall-MissSmall

  • Reg Wannamaker

    I am a Canadian Veteran and survivalist. If you have a truck with a
    camper. Build shelves in it as well as a stove for the cold weather.
    Recce a place to go if you have to. Preferably a small lake with fish.
    and wooded area for fuel and small game. Cut some wood in advance.
    winter can cause great difficulty. Get out of debt. get a battery
    operated radio. A couple of containers of gas for camper. Encourage
    friends and neighbors. Pray for guidance and be prepared.

  • Jeff Bullock

    Do not buy from REI. They have been donating camping supplies to the Occu-tards.
    Look into traps, both for terrestrial critters, birds and fish. Get bokoks and key components to build your own.
    The 22LR is the way to go. Stay with subsonic ammo as it is quieter. You may have to hunt in the suburbs and you do not want to attract attention.

  • socaldano

    Remember REI provides grants to the liberal turds we cannot stand. They hire only extreme liberals and then only allow the employees to recommend grants.
    All REI profits go to these grants of groups and causes that make any middle of the road or right of center want to puke.


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