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Lawsuit challenges denial of right to bear arms

May 7, 2009 by  

Lawsuit challenges denial of right to bear armsThe Second Amendment Foundation (SAF), The Calguns Foundation (CF) and three private citizens have filed a lawsuit against arbitrary state infringement of the right to bear arms in California.

They challenge the policies of two sheriffs in Sacramento and Yolo counties, who refuse to issue law-abiding people gun permits while criminals continue to carry guns without police permission, according to the SAF.

One of the plaintiffs believes her sexual orientation and small stature makes her an appealing target for criminals but she has been unable to obtain a gun permit.

"The California licensing system is being abused by some officials who are hostile to self-defense rights," says Donald Kilmer, co-counsel representing the plaintiffs in this case.

He adds, "Complete deprivation of the right to bear arms is not an option under our constitution."

Founded in 1974, SAF is the nation’s oldest and largest education, research, publishing and legal action group focusing on the constitutional right to privately own and possess firearms. It has more than 600,000 members and conducts programs designed to better inform the public about the consequences of gun control.

CF is a non-profit legal defense fund for California gun owners and works to educate government and the public and protect the rights of individuals to own and lawfully use firearms in California.
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  • http://trketed@gmail.com Ted Morse

    There is no “gun permit” to own a gun in Kalifornia. A concealed carry permit is a different matter. To buy a gun, one must clear the federal investigation only.

    To allude that one needs a “gun permit” is misleading and counterproductive.

    • John

      Ted, you are correct. But the woman in question is worried that because of her small stature she will be an easy target for criminals. So it is safe to assume that she wanted a permit to carry a concealed weapon on her person where it will actually be of use to her, and not at home locked away in some gun cabinet.

      • blindstanley

        not exactly right. to purchase a handgun a state handgun safety certificate (hrc) is required. and to the best of my knowledge there is no federal investigation only a california backround check, and in the case of a handgun registration. only the backround check is required for longguns. the federal form 4473 is completed at the pick up of the firearm and must remain on the premises of the license holder as long as they remain in the firearm business.

      • D. Jones

        The article “What the media won’t tell you! – 9/11/01 – OKC Bombing”

        Date: Sept./ 12/ 2002 – In all of this can be seen the true character of the powers that are pushing the world into the scheme of GLOBALISM.

        “Secure in your wicked ways, you thought no one could see you. Therefore evil and calamity will overtake you, and you will not be able to avert it.” Is 47:10-11

        “Justice is turned away and righteousness stands far off. For truth is fallen in the streets, City’s forum, and uprightness cannot enter the courts of justice.” Is. 59:14

        They have warned us: “Our State, marching along the path of peaceful conquest, has the right to replace the horrors of war by less noticeable and more satisfactory means.

        That is, by the sentences of death that are necessary to maintain the terror which leads to blind submission………… We execute men in such a way that no one but we of the brotherhood will ever suspect it. Not even the victims themselves know of our death sentence and what is happening.

        They all just die when required and it appears as if from a normal kind of illness. Knowing this, even the brotherhood themselves dare not protest.”

        • George

          So what you are saying, is the government is corrupt.
          Profound.

    • fred

      Great discussion. I don’t know why our citizens have placed so much
      emphasis on seeking permission through issuance of a permit. A permit
      means that someone like you and me must ask permission to do something.
      This is nonsense. The Second Amendment reaffirms an already God-given
      Right to bear arms and accordingly any attempt whatsoever for whatever
      reason invented for any govern ment in the US to require a permit by its
      very nature ignores this right and would be Unconstitutional on its face
      We must all understand what the words in our glorious Constitution mean.
      In this instance it means that anyone residing in any state has the absolute
      right to carry a gun WITHOUT A PERMIT. Only if we realize the difference
      between a RIGHT and a privilege will we begin to understand the great wisdom
      our constitution’s framers had. AND, once we realize OUR RIGHT TO BEAR ARMS DEMANDS OBEDIENCE BY THE STATE then and only then will we
      have the strength and fortitude to stand up against tyranny by obtaining a
      firearm without a permit. The next step in our arsenal should any governmental
      official attempt to require a permit would be to persuade our county sheriff
      to remedy the situation with any number of possible actions against the official.

      As my wife always tells me, THE BEST DEFENCE IS AN OFFENCE.

      • Mike51

        You are so correct I could not have given a better answer if I tried. It is our right to carry a weapon and our weapon of choice NOT what the state says we can carry. The people have the authority to carry their weapons without asking for permission from the state or federal government and the government does not have the right to dictate under what conditions the people can carry those weapons. We The People do need to start DEMANDING THAT THE STATES AND THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT IS OBEDIENT TO THE PEOPLE. That is what a true republic is. A government that the people is obedient to is nothing more than a tyranny.

        • Lolokimo

          And you said it, we the people need to DEMAND our rights, not ask, and one of the strongests words in the english dictonary is NO

        • JeffH

          Correctly stated. As with some who choose “open carry” , completly legal, the anti’s choose to be fearful of law abiding citizen and wish to deprive the law abiding citizen of their 2nd Amentment rights. Myself, I do not have a need for a CCP, but it is a right I am not opposed to at all. Why is it that the law abiding citizen must suffer the indignity of the narrowminded lawmakers that cannot seem to grasp the idea that the criminal will not obey any laws, no matter whomelse must!

      • KC

        Fred,

        You are absolutely correct in this. She just needs to go out and buy a gun and to heck with what the police and Pelosi says over there.

      • George

        I am against all gun regulation.

        The Federal Government gets around the Second Amendment by allowing us to freely buy rifles and shotguns without requiring registration.

        Its only certain types of guns that they attempt to control, and certain types of behavior, such as carrying. You can carry a gun, concealed or not all you want, on your own property. But in the public domain, lets face it, not everyone should own a gun, not to mention bring it out in public. I have know some really irresponsible people.
        Basically, the permits are just a way to screen out the idiots from legally carring in public.

        Again, I am against all forms of gun control.
        I have two answers to an idiot with a gun, .357cal and .44 cal.
        As they say, “When the hammer drops, the bulls**t stops.”

        • JeffH

          …and my 9mm, .223, 20ga. and 12 gauge!

          • JeffH

            forgot my 22 LR.

        • J. Murphy

          Everyone making comments concerning our Constitutional Rights is absolutely correct. I do believe that there should be an age limit to those who are allowed to carry/ own a weapon of whatever kind. Children of course are excluded. Say voting age would be acceptable to all. For those who walk the wrong side of the law: criminals who have not committed a crime with the use of a gun & did their time, by rights, should have the right to carry a weapon for protection. I do believe, however, that any criminal who has committed a crime involving a gun should not ever be allowed to own a weapon again. Serial killers forfeit their rights are at the top of my list. Many of you voice your opinions here & other sites. How many of you have screamed at your state Senators & Congressmen? Even sent emails to the morons at the white house?? Any of you? I’ve sent an email to every Governor & Senator in the U.S. concerning our right to carry weapons for defense & to try & get Governors to pass a bill to Stop all Sharia laws from being passed. There’s another badger in the U.S. mix that many of you may not be aware of & Obama is his puppet. George Soros aka Schwartz in Germany during Hitler’s reign. Check out SorosWatch.com for a great deal of information. If you’re not part of the solution, you’re part of the problem. Don’t just spout rights, fight for them!!!! I’m not ready to give up my rights concerning guns, muslims, or God. Are you???

          Written by:Joan Pryde, Senior tax editor for the Kiplinger letters

          In just six months, on January 1, 2011, the largest tax hikes in the history of America will take effect.

          They will hit families and small businesses in three great waves.

          On January 1, 2011, here’s what happens….

          First Wave:

          Expiration of 2001 and 2003 Tax Relief

          In 2001 and 2003, the GOP Congress enacted several tax cuts for investors, small business owners, and families.

          These will all expire on January 1, 2011.

          Personal income tax rates will rise.

          The top income tax rate will rise from 35 to 39.6 percent (this is also the rate at which two-thirds of small business profits are taxed).

          The lowest rate will rise from 10 to 15 percent.

          All the rates in between will also rise.

          Itemized deductions and personal exemptions will again phase out, which has the same mathematical effect as highermarginal tax rates.

          The full list of marginal rate hikes is below:

          The 10% bracket rises to an expanded 15%
          The 25% bracket rises to 28%
          The 28% bracket rises to 31%
          The 33% bracket rises to 36%
          The 35% bracket rises to 39.6%

          Higher taxes on marriage and family.

          The “marriage penalty” (narrower tax brackets for married couples) will return from the first dollar of income.

          The child tax credit will be cut in half from $1000 to $500 per child.

          The standard deduction will no longer be doubled for married couples relative to the single level.

          The dependent care and adoption tax credits will be cut.

          The return of the Death Tax.

          This year only, there is no death tax. (It’s a quirk!) For those dying on or after January 1, 2011, there is a 55 percent
          top death tax rate on estates over $1 million. A person leaving behind two homes, a business, a retirement account, could easily pass along a death tax bill to their loved ones. Think of the farmers who don’t make much money, but their land, which they purchased years ago with after-tax dollars, is now worth a lot of money. Their children will have to sell the farm, which may be their livelihood, just to pay the estate tax if they don’t have the cash sitting around to pay the tax. Think about your own family’s assets. Maybe your family owns real estate, or a business that doesn’t make much money, but the building and equipment are worth $1 million. Upon their death, you can inherit the $1 million business tax free, but if they own a home, stock, cash worth $500K on top of the $1 million business, then you will owe the government $275,000 cash! That’s 55% of the value of the assets over $1 million! Do you have that kind of cash sitting around waiting to pay the estate tax?

          Higher tax rates on savers and investors.

          The capital gains tax will rise from 15 percent this year to 20 percent in 2011.

          The dividends tax will rise from 15 percent this year to 39.6 percent in 2011.

          These rates will rise another 3.8 percent in 2013.

          Second Wave:

          Obamacare

          There are over twenty new or higher taxes in Obamacare. Several will first go into effect on January 1, 2011. They include:

          The “Medicine Cabinet Tax”

          Thanks to Obamacare, Americans will no longer be able to use health savings account (HSA), flexible spending account (FSA), or health reimbursement (HRA) pre-tax dollars to purchase non-prescription, over-the-counter medicines (except insulin).

          The “Special Needs Kids Tax”

          This provision of Obamacare imposes a cap on flexible spending accounts (FSAs) of $2500 (Currently, there is no federal government limit). There is one group of FSA owners for whom this new cap will be particularly cruel and onerous: parents of special needs children.

          There are thousands of families with special needs children in the United States, and many of them use FSAs to pay for special needs education.

          Tuition rates at one leading school that teaches special needs children in Washington , D.C. ( National Child Research Center ) can easily exceed $14,000 per year.

          Under tax rules, FSA dollars can not be used to pay for this type of special needs education.

          The HSA (Health Savings Account) Withdrawal Tax Hike.

          This provision of Obamacare increases the additional tax on non-medical early withdrawals from an HSA from 10 to 20 percent, disadvantaging them relative to IRAsand other tax-advantaged accounts, which remain at 10 percent.

          Third Wave:

          The Alternative Minimum Tax (AMT) and Employer Tax Hikes

          When Americans prepare to file their tax returns in January of 2011, they’ll be in for a nasty surprise-the AMT won’t be held harmless, and many tax relief provisions will have expired.

          The major items include:

          The AMT will ensnare over 28 million families, up from 4 million last year.

          According to the left-leaning Tax Policy Center, Congress’ failure to index the AMT will lead to an explosion of AMT taxpaying families-rising from 4 million last year to 28.5 million. These families will have to calculate their tax burdens twice, and pay taxes at the higher level. The AMT was created in 1969 to ensnare a handful of taxpayers.

          Small business expensing will be slashed and 50% expensing will disappear.

          Small businesses can normally expense (rather than slowly-deduct, or “depreciate”) equipment purchases up to $250,000.

          This will be cut all the way down to $25,000. Larger businesses can currently expense half of their purchases of equipment.

          In January of 2011, all of it will have to be “depreciated.”

          Taxes will be raised on all types of businesses.

          There are literally scores of tax hikes on business that will take place. The biggest is the loss of the “research and experimentation tax credit,” but there are many, many others. Combining high marginal tax rates with the loss of this tax relief will cost jobs.

          Tax Benefits for Education and Teaching Reduced.

          The deduction for tuition and fees will not be available.

          Tax credits for education will be limited.

          Teachers will no longer be able to deduct classroom expenses.

          Coverdell Education Savings Accounts will be cut.

          Employer-provided educational assistance is curtailed.

          The student loan interest deduction will be disallowed for hundreds of thousands of families.

          Charitable Contributions from IRAs no longer allowed.

          Under current law, a retired person with an IRA can contribute up to $100,000 per year directly to a charity from their IRA.

          This contribution also counts toward an annual “required minimum distribution.” This ability will no longer be there.

          PDF Version Read more: ; http://www.atr.org/six-months-untilbr-largest-tax-hikes-a5171#%23ixzz0sY8waPq1

          And worse yet?

          Now, your insurance will be INCOME on your W2′s!

          One of the surprises we’ll find come next year, is what follows – - a little “surprise” that 99% of us had no idea was included in the “new and improved” healthcare legislation . . . the dupes, er, dopes, who backed this administration will be astonished!

          Starting in 2011, (next year folks), your W-2 tax form sent by your employer will be increased to show the value of whatever health insurance you are given by the company. It does not matter if that’s a private concern or governmental body of some sort.

          If you’re retired? So what… your gross will go up by the amount of insurance you get.

          You will be required to pay taxes on a large sum of money that you have never seen. Take your tax form you just finished and see what $15,000 or $20,000 additional gross does to your tax debt. That’s what you’ll pay next year.

          For many, it also puts you into a new higher bracket so it’s even worse.

          This is how the government is going to buy insurance for the15% that don’t have insurance and it’s only part of the tax increases.

          Not believing this??? Here is a research of the summaries…..

      • Lolokimo

        Well, we are supossewd to stay quiet on this subject im about to write about.but, everyone knows anyway. In this country, conservativly, there are more unregistered guns than registered. With all the laws, [being vehicles to disarm law abiding citizens] Milions of people in america own handguns and longuns unregistered, the provblem of course is if one is caught with one, well, its a misdemeanor, but the weapon is confiscated. The second amendment is very clear, “the right to have and bear arms shall not be infringed” That is exactally what it means. It says nothin about felons, or the right of any state or court to take away these rights. Its a good thing to register one or two, but for the most part, people who are aware of the agenda in this country have at least one gun unregisteered. You may ask, “where does this person get this info” well, from vast experience, allot of travel, meetingmany people.The reason of course people keep at least one gun unregistrered, is the fear that the gov will have the location ansd name of the person, and thus be able to confiscate the weapon.as they did in New orleans. Guns are made for three things, sport, feedingsones self, and protecting ones self from those larger than themselves, when thier life is in danger. We all know[andif yopu dont you nedd to study] what has happened in the countries where they have banned guns, its not a pretty site. Our own gov, seems to think itsa ok to let steriod filled badge toting men carry deadly force, and step all over our god given rights, that now includes our goverment workers, who now at a rate unpresidented are being issued concealed weapons permits.It is sumed up well by this phrase, when the governm,ent ceases to serve the people, it becomes the master, and people, behold your master. we now live in a country where the government has almost total rule, annd do not follow their own laws.Ask yourself, do you trust your governmet? the answer is no, i dont have to ask, just a piont made. On closing, to those on the other side, yeah you that think the government is for ther goverment, by the goverment [the progressive croud] and by the way the minority. You will never take the guns from Americans, not in the next two hundred years anyway. And to those who fear guns, you are fearing the very thing that can protect you. Or, i get it, you would rather use a stick to defend yourself aginst a rapist, or a mugger, or worse.
        I suggest a good book for all to read, new out there too, and sold out for a short time.glenn becks common snse.therer are no lies in his book. A rye patriot, and, has common sense.

        • JeffH

          There are many guns that were purchased prior to the registration laws, again, very much legal.

    • howiem

      I have to disagree with Ted that, “There is no “gun permit” to own a gun in Kalifornia……..To buy a gun, one must clear the federal investigation only.”

      When one clears the fed investigation, one gets “permission” to buy the gun, and that is a permit.

    • Mr Cash

      I think any permit that has to do with the use of a firearm could be called a “gun permit”. I don’t believe California or anyone else has a right to infringe in any way our right to keep and bear arms and our right to be secure in our person. These basic rights are individual rights and are unaleinable, which means you can’t put a lein on them, you cannot require someone to spend money or time to have the rights.

  • Bill Taylor

    I too am worried some. I am getting up in years and live in the country. While I can have a gun on my property,The walk from my car to the house, makes me an easy target,especially at night. Why is California so oppsoed to issueing conceled carry permits when so many other states have done so without any problems .If a person meets all the requirement, Why not issue the permitt.? Seems only the law breakers have guns in California. A near by neighbor was killed for his car, while walking from his drive way to his house. Every day violent crime takes place near here.

    • bert

      Politics, power prevail. Not common sense, practicality, prevention of crimes. Think 98% of crimes are committed by criminals with unregistered guns. B.

    • Howard

      Bill- Protect yourself and your family FIRST. Worry about the Kooky Kalifornia after you have saved yourself or or your family…. Best yet, get a CCP….. They take it with you to the grocery store or others places that thugs frequent….

      • Bill Taylor

        Howard-Thanks for your reply, I do the best I can along this line and I do have a ccp and its good I beleave in 30 some odd states,Except California.I step off my property to go to the store or drive around to the back side of my pasture with a hand gun and I have committed a crime in California.Forget getting a ccp in this county.

    • JeffH

      The lawmakers, for the most part, are far removed from the real world. In California, I believe that they feel useless unless they can think of new ways to create a law that does not prohibit criminals from being what they are. It is much easier to make a law that might make a few more honest people into criminals than use common sense. Welcome to fantasy land.

    • Ed

      Bill
      From all the blogs I’ve read here, in everybody’s opinion, no gun control is justified and all individuals should be able to carry any kind of weapon, including shoulder-carried missile launchers if they think they might need them for self-defence. Yet you are appalled that law-breakers have guns. Aren’t they entitled to carry guns – or aren’t they also the people?

      Apparently anyone should be able to carry a weapon, concealed or otherwise so long as they don’t use it without justification – whatever that is.

      I’ve read the second amendment and the comments of the delegates who first proposed it and they seem to talk about “well-regulated militia” as a justification for this “god-given right”.

      And their idea of the rights of “the people” doesn’t include a description of who exactly are “the people”. I don’t think they included African slaves for example, or kids under six years old, or Chinese or inmates of a nut-house. Certainly not jail-birds.

      But maybe the delegates at the Constitutional Convention did mean “all individuals” and just screwed up the wording and we should give every six year old kid a real gun (with bullets) along with his first cowboy hat. So long as he doesn’t shoot at some bully at the playground, everybody will feel okay and safer.

  • Jerry

    If you are not politically connected in Kalifornia, it is still possible to get a concealed carry permit. Unfortunately it usually requires a large contribution-around $5000, to the sheriff’s election fund. The sheriff shows his gratitude by ignoring his anti 2nd amendment policies, and allow his department to issue the “permit”.

    • Howard

      Throw the Thug Sheriff out of office, get an honest sheriff, and be happy.

    • JeffH

      In just a few words, Feinstein, Boxer, Pelosi, DeLeon, Leno, and the beat goes on. Get up and vote, vote, vote.

  • Ned Settimi

    I understand that pencils don’t mispell words; people do. Cars don’t kill people; drivers do. Guns don’t kill people; people do. But I don’t understand how people of mental and social instability not only have guns but a virtual armory. Stop focusing on guns and start focusing on mental and social misfits. Is there anyone out there that can design a test to identify persons that become unstable under stress?

    • rodin

      The only test I know to test for potential instability is whether there is a beating heart or not.

      Statistics prove that Americans have the highest murder rates in the world with firearms. Factors that are several multiples higher than any other countries. Yes, other countries have criminals with guns and yes there are murders of law abiding citizens with those guns, but because of the controls, the incidents of these acts are much lower than in the US. Couple that with the highest worldwide rate of accidental death due to firearms and you have a rational argument that Americans would be far safer banning all firearms to its citizens, even if the the criminals still held onto their guns.

      • PGO

        Most other countries have fewer murders because they have less people. DUH. There is a higher rate of break-ins (or burgleries) while the people are at home in England. Why? Because the criminals are not worried about comming face to face with an armed victims. In this country the rate is higher for UNoccuppied homes.

        • rodin

          Go to school and learn what “rate” means. I assume you flunked out of grade 3 when they started talking about %ages. Typical bucktoothed hillbilly that wants to have a gun. Scary world I live in.

          If minimum IQ tests were the standard for gun ownership, there’d be no more guns.

          • joe from tampa

            is it just me or does rodin sound like a rabid liberal? again, i’m saying this as a democrat myself, amazing how disjointed the democratic party has become when hating guns is our primary campaign issue.

        • PGO

          Dear Mr Rodin, I can at least spell percentages. I am neither “buck toothed” or a “hillbilly”. Quite the contrary, my IQ is higher than the sitting president. I also know that gun crime is way up in the United Kingdom, with drive-by shootings and all. Yet they have draconian gun laws. The problem there is that only the bad guys and some of the police have guns.

        • JeffH

          Statistics prove that crime rates are higher in areas the have strong gun control.
          The only gun control I believe in is “hitting what you aim at”!

      • Horizon3

        Gun Control ?
        The number of phycians in the U.S. is 700,000
        The accidental deaths caused by phycians per year is 120,000
        Statistics courtesy of U.S. Dept of Health and Human Services.

        The number of gun owners in the U.S. is 80,000,000 !
        Yup that is 80 million !
        The number of accidental deaths by guns, all age groups is 1,500.
        Statistics, courtesy of FBI.

        So statistically, doctors are approximately 9,000 times more dangerous than gun owners.

        Fact : Not everyone has a gun but : almost everyone has at least one doctor.

        • Deacon

          Horizon3, don’t mess with people’s heads with straighforward use of numbers. Many people are so set in believing statistics (lies) that the truth just scrambles their thought process!

        • http://www.qualityassurance.synthasite.com DocArt

          Hey, Horizon3…

          Your statistics are more accurate than you think.
          Very good… the U.S. government and its agencies (and doctors) kill more
          people without giving it a second thought.

          Get real… the only difference between free men and slaves is the last bastion of
          liberty: The to carry and bear arms. Take that away, and you will see how
          quickly our U.S. federal criminals will take over !!

        • RED

          I’ve heard it before, but still Love it!

          RED

        • rodin

          Nobody has to have a gun. That’s 1500 people that died needlessly.

          • JeffH

            With that statement, nobody needs a doctor or a car or an airplane or even maybe war.
            Makes sense to me! NOT!

          • joe from tampa

            i agree 100% rodin, and if i could carry a police officer around with me, i would not need a gun ;)

      • Robin from Indiana

        I don’t know where you get your statistics; regardless, our constitution gives us the right to keep and bear arms. Nobody is forced to keep a gun in their home, or forced to pay for a conceal permit. Your argument is not a rational argument. I have never liked guns. They scare me. However, I am a natural born citizen and it is my right, granted to me by the constitution to own a gun if I so choose. And the way things are going in this country, I think I am ready to learn how to use a gun and apply for my conceal permit. I hope they win this lawsuit in California. Those people who are not following the letter of the law need to be voted out of office!

        • Janet from Utah

          Robin, look into the town of Virgin Utah. Every citizen, all 250 of them are to have a gun in the home for protection. It is the town law and they have NO crime.

        • http://www.qualityassurance.synthasite.com DocArt

          Same goes for a town called Kennesaw, Georgia, to my best recollection.

          Also, the Constitution is being subverted by these government criminals and their proposed New World DisOrder…

          Why can’t they just let the people be… when left alone, without oppressive laws, the people can take care of themselves pretty darn good, despite this NeoCon thinking to the contrary. Don’t believe a word this corrupt government says.

        • Jack

          I don’t know where yoyu live, but my “permit” cost me $20.00US per year.

        • Jim Wright

          I think you are highly mistaken if you believe that the bill of Rights gives us the right to keep and bear arms. The Constitution and its’ amendments are there to safeguard our GOD-given rights and to affirm our God -given liberties. Neither the congress or any state or federal institution is empowered to take away or midify those rights. The abrogation of those rights is a direct violation of the intent of the framers of the Constitution.

      • VIK

        rodin??? ban All Firearms and the U.S. will be safer?? what the &#@* are you thinking. The Two safest countries in the World are Switzerland and Iseral, both have Manditory citizen arming eg: A Standing Militia. If we disarm our citizens only criminals, police and military will have protection (guns) Oh by the way guess where our founding Fathers got their idea for a standing Militia, from the Swiss!

      • 08hayabusa

        Your analogy isn’t per capita. The United States has 330,000,000 people. Most countries only have populations of our large states.

        • rodin

          Canada has 30 some odd million people and on a per capita basis a minisucle %age of the US experience of gun based deaths.

        • 08hayabusa

          Canada has 4.9 deaths per 100,000 and the United states has 4.2 per 100,000 population.

        • rodin

          You lying f!@#!@ing piece of s!@#. Look up the stats instead of spouting lies. Here’s numbers from the CDC.

          Gun Deaths – United States Tops The List

          The United States leads the world’s richest nations in gun deaths — murders, suicides, and accidental deaths due to guns – according to a study published April 17, 1998 by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) in the International Journal of Epidemiology.

          The U.S. was first at 14.24 gun deaths per 100,000 people. Two other countries in the Americas came next. Brazil was second with 12.95, followed by Mexico with 12.69.

          Japan had the lowest rate, at 0.05 gun deaths per 100,000 (1 per 2 million people). The police in Japan actively raid homes of those suspected of having weapons.

          The 36 countries in the study were the richest in the World Bank’s 1994 World Development Report, having the highest GNP per capita income.

          The United States accounted for 45 percent of the 88,649 gun deaths reported in the study, the first comprehensive international scrutiny of gun-related deaths.

          The gun-related deaths per 100,000 people in 1994 by country were as follows:

          * U.S.A. 14.24
          * Brazil 12.95
          * Mexico 12.69
          * Estonia 12.26
          * Argentina 8.93
          * Northern Ireland 6.63
          * Finland 6.46
          * Switzerland 5.31
          * France 5.15
          * Canada 4.31
          * Norway 3.82
          * Austria 3.70
          * Portugal 3.20
          * Israel 2.91
          * Belgium 2.90
          * Australia 2.65
          * Slovenia 2.60
          * Italy 2.44
          * New Zealand 2.38
          * Denmark 2.09
          * Sweden 1.92
          * Kuwait 1.84
          * Greece 1.29
          * Germany 1.24
          * Hungary 1.11
          * Ireland 0.97
          * Spain 0.78
          * Netherlands 0.70
          * Scotland 0.54
          * England and Wales 0.41
          * Taiwan 0.37
          * Singapore 0.21
          * Mauritius 0.19
          * Hong Kong 0.14
          * South Korea 0.12
          * Japan 0.05

          If you’re going to come on a site like this be real prepared to be called if you lie through your F!@#ing teeth. Go home to your trailer.

        • 08hayabusa

          Hey Liberal rodin. Why don’t you check the more recent stats of 2004. But just like a typical Liberal you just go into a rant and twist the facts to suit your agenda. But just for the record, gun laws don’t stop criminals from having them. That’s why they’re called criminals. They don’t give a damn about your Liberal guns laws.

          • joe from tampa

            as a democrat myself i disagree. rodin is not twisting facts because he is a liberal, and he is certainly not a typical democrat, in my experience. he’s twisting facts because he’s a troll, and a gun hater. again, i type this as a democrat myself, just so the radical left wing trolls here understand my point of view.

      • Dana

        Robin,
        Obviously you have not looked at other countries statistics on violent crime since gun control has been complimented. Besides, statistics are so easily manipulated. Just look at England, ask the people there if gun control has helped. And finally I would like to ask you, as a concealed wepon permit holder, just what part of the Second Amendment don’t you understand?

        Criminals do not obey the law, they are criminals. You disarm the American Public, (which will never happen) and you give free will to the criminal element. No thank you, I will keep my gun, and if anyone enters my home with a gun, hell bent on doing harm to my family…they will not make it 5 feet before I kill them where they stand. If by some travesty of justice gun control in implemented, I will be a criminal, because I will never give up my only means of defending my family.

        Dana

      • Robo

        Dana has it right. I have traveled several countries and have seen reports of violence. The countries that have gun control by government only causes guns to be held away from the people. Those are not the only weapons available. In most foreign countries the knife or club is the favored tool. Also it should be stated that such crimes are only reported locally. The crimes committed are also related to ECONOMIC conditions. A gun can be acquired in many ways and a lot of rifles, handguns and knives are produced in foreign countries. Personal defense by any means is morally acceptable
        and government cannot provide the assurance without a fee, license or legislation that benefits government. And then such assurance would be sub-standard. Can you trust YOUR government ?? I think not.

      • http://Rodin Ray

        Rodin; Your ignorance of the facts flourishes n your comments. Just to show you a place within the U.S. as an example. Puerto Rico, a Commonwealth of the U.S., has banned firearms to the point that any law abiding citizen who needs one has to go through more hoops and loops than in California and, even so, his/her chances are almost none. However, the amount of illegal weapons, including fully automatics, in the hands of drug dealers, and other hoodlums has proliferated in ways that they are better armed than the police, and perhaps, the F.B.I. itself. People are dropping like flies in the interior of the island. Not a day goes by that an innocent bystander gets killed by these hoodlums, who rob and murder without discrimination. Only the tourist areas are “safe” because of the police presence and its purge of the area. The law abiding citizen must lock him/herself and their families behind bars at night to feel safe because, they do not feel protected and the police is inefective. If more law abiding citizens were duly trained armed to shoot a weapon to protect themselves, the story would be different. Every Country that has disarmed its citizens has made them victims of criminals. Watch out !

        • Harold

          Take Nazi Germany for instance, when you dis-arm the public you can take the country over completely. So the real danger is the government, especially the one now in power. you know the pretender in chief. (no valid Birth cert. to date.)

        • rodin

          I’m sure you can compare yourself to any third world country – try Pakistan or IRAQ where you’re allowed to walk through the streets with a loaded AK-47. I’m sure you hillbillies would love to be able to do that. Why don’t you instead look to the examples of Canada or Holland or Spain or Italy or Germany or the UK or France or Denmark or ……..

          • JeffH

            rodin..you should consider a move out of the coutry where you can be safer from us gun nuts! Open carry of a firearm is legal in America also. Including AK-47 and AR-15′s.

          • J C

            Perhaps then you might address this thought…
            How is it that a woman found in an alley raped and strangled with her own panty hose is morally superior to the one explaing to the police how her attacker recieved a fatal bullet wound? The logic you gun grabbing morons apply to anything, is astoundingly stupid.

          • joe from tampa

            rodin is a troll, you’re all falling right into his trap. america will never be disarmed, i personally will defend myself and my home from anyone propogating illegal activities, including government enforcers if they should attempt to disarm me. the 2nd american civil war is one executive order away, and because of this i sincerely doubt the government will EVER try to institute a nationwide firearms ban.

      • john2

        So we should ban all pools too because more people die in them than are killed with firearms.

      • Roger Doxaras

        Rodin, have you considered that Police Officers can only help after the fact? Officers that do not sit behind a desk have been interviewed and the greater majority attest to this one fact. Oh I forgot, Liberals choose to ignore majority
        concerns!

      • Roger Doxaras

        Gee Rodin, remember your words the next time an illegal breaks into your home and kills one of your loved ones! Are you so naive as to think that criminals follow the gunlaws! Criminals will always have access to illegal weapons because criminals don’t care about the law or for that matter about who they kill with their illegal weapon……DUHHH

    • http://donthaveone Mark

      I agree, and then there are people like me. The only thing Ive ever done wrong in my life, well, the only big thing, is I took some merchandise out of an ex-employers dumpter, as they were throwing it away, and two years later someone told them I did this, and I got charged with possession of stolen property, and despite being 32 years old and having a spotless record, I received a felony conviction. The item was baseball cards, that were destined to be sent to the dump. As a result of this, which was 15 years ago, I am not allowed to carry a firearm, be in possession of a firearm, or even have one in my house, because Im a dangerous convicted felon. Its not right, so if someone decides to break in my house and I catch them, I have to beat them with a baseball bat the old fashioned way. But criminals dont care about any gun laws, they are going to have them. If I was one of these career criminals, I wouldnt abide by the law, Id have my gun, because most of these guys dont own homes, they dont keep a job, and when they are caught by the authoritys doing wrong, they are just given a slap on the wrist, because they have nothing to get from them. You see, it isnt about justice anymore, its all about money. If its a law abiding citizen that is working and has a house and is a responsible tax paying citizen, they will ream you for all they can get, but the common ass criminal walks with a slap in the hand, because they dont have anything to get from them. Its sad, but our penal system is corrupted by crooked lawyers and judges, whom to me should be the scourage of our society, as they are the true low lifes, the very reason that criminals keep commiting crimes, as these guys have prostituted the legal system so bad, that common sense cant even be used to save a life. They know someone is dirty and know they are going to kill someone, but they wont do nothing until it happens. Meanwhile, they take mass amounts of money from drug dealers and other “dirty” guilty parties, and share the money between lawyers and judges and let these guys go about their illegal activities. A sad comment on the state of affairs of America, when a once noble and looked up to profession, is in the toilet and reeks of the stench it has become.

      • rodin

        Just because you’re paranoid doesn’t mean that everyone’s not out to get you. LMAO

        You don’t need a gun and neither does anyone else on this thread. Ban the whole lot. No guns and slowly get rid of the ones the criminals hold. The US is the biggest supplier of guns to criminals in other countries.

        • http://donthaveone Mark

          Aint got nothing to do with being paranoid you jerk. Ive never owned a hand gun, and I dont make a habit of putting myself into places or situations where I might need one. But I surely cannot begrudge someone if they want to carry one, as long as they do it legally. If someone is going to kill someone, they dont need a gun to do it, so are you going to ban knives and baseball bats and ice picks and screw drivers. I mean, where does it stop. Hand guns dont kill people, and if you look at the facts of where they are most carried around at, there is less crime. Seems to me that you have twisted things around in your head, where you are so paranoid about hand guns. That is the facts we have to deal with here. Maybe something bad happened in your family with a hand gun, I dont know. But take these away from our society, and brother you will see gun crimes skyrocket. Reports out of Australia that Ive seen, says that since they institutued hand gun bans, gun crimes have gone up 600 percent. We really dont need that around here. So dont be throwing the “paranoid” word around, when you are the one that is paranoid about hand guns. Me, I can take them or leave them, as Ive never owned one, and probably wont, but Im all for my neighbor to own one if he wants to. Its his right.

        • frank

          I have lived in countries where people have no handguns.They are murdered with inpunity,and often by their own gov.Violent crime incresaed 300 % in canada in the first year after they gave up their weapons! As a former weapons secutiry officer in the Air Force I have seen people who are defensless,and tortured(and I mean REALLY tortured).rodin is obviously deranged and out of touch with the REAL world.In Atlanta Ga a house party was ended when two armed men robbed the guests and proceeded to rape and murder all of them.A young man had a handgun in his book bag.He fired at one criminal who ran for his life.The second one was about to start raping the females when the student shot and fatally wounded him.All of the men and women would have been raped and murdered if not for this one person.
          Just think how many virginia tech students would have lived if they had a right to carry on campus?
          SOUNDS TO ME LIKE ANOTHER LIBERAL BED WETTING BABY WANTS TO WHINE AND SAY THEY ARE SCARED!Don,t worry little baby,The obamasamarama man will save you.My big old butt!!!!
          More likely it will be trained combat veterans like myself who will have to fight for you so you can be a homosexual bed wetting baby.

        • Roger Doxaras

          I see you subscribe to Hillary Clintons belief Rodin, but actually the facts are that America only contributes to a very small percentage of global illegal gun
          running. Those few that do provide American arms globally are acting aganist the law……humm that mean they are criminals…..that would mean an American criminal is supplying other global criminals or maybe even terrorists!

        • Howard

          Rodin- simply said, you do not know what the hell you are babbling about regarding guns. Go play with yourself, you will have more good feelings about that than anything else…

        • Lori

          “and slowly get rid of the rest?” I assume you have a plan for that?

          Perhaps you should spend some time reading the words of our founding fathers on the right of American’s to own guns. They believed that a people without the right to arm themselves had to fear not only the criminal element but also their own government. And their fears were proven correct just a bit more than 100 years later in Germany when Hitler used the gun registration lists first to confiscate the guns of the Jews and then to herd them into concentration camps.

          Perhaps you should study the state Australia finds itself in now after confiscating all registered weapons on threat of arresting those who refused to turn over their guns – take a look at the increase in their crime rates in the first year after spending 90 billion to destroy all those legally owned guns.

          If you are so concerned with your safety from our guns, you are more than welcome to move to one of those countries whose gun laws are more to your liking. Unfortunately, your ilk won’t do that…you’ll just continue to work on restricting the rights of those who don’t think the same way you do – all the while screaming that being a liberal means being in support of “freedom”. The difference is that you all want freedom “from” and not freedom “of”……a distinction that will destroy this country if we’re not careful.

        • JeffH

          Once again…leave America!

      • Lolokimo

        Brother, i too am labeled as a felon, I give you a badge of couare to admit it, and i too am labeled rthat for possing over an ounce of pot, 30 years ago.well, ill give ya the answr, you may not like it, but here it is, buy a gun, and if and when you have to use it. Or, move to one of 4 states, that allow felons to own a handgun, one is utah, after 5 yearts, claen slate, i wont meantion the others to protect what freedoms they still have. The labeling of citizens is yet another way to limit your rights, and scare you, and keep you from having the right to own a gun, your God given right. We live in an country where your rights, and the rights of the many, are being ignored. I fell for ya, but, remeber this, look into it, if you value your right to bear arms, there ARE states where you can.

    • Howard

      Great observation and advice.

      • http://donthaveone Mark

        When he said liberal bed wetting baby, he forgot pacifist appeasing liberal bed wetting left wing liberal baby.

    • Kimo

      yes, any good man will defend hiself ,or his family understress, the bottom line is, if you respect people, tyou dont have much to worry about. As for the so called mental misfits, our prisons are FULl of them, along with men that do nit belong in prison, ask any prison guard or cop. i was raise with a gun from the sge of 10, yes 10 years old, and i have fought some hard fights, and i had a gun, but i put it away and used my fists. Violence must be met with equel violence. dont be so afraid, dont you know there are more good than bad? itrs true, those that wnat thjier right to bnear arms and have arms for the most part are very law abiding, and they may be the one that saves you fronm that nut. think on that, police are SECOND responders in 99 percent of all vioplent crimes, they get there to clean up the mess, morte better to arm yourself, to priteect yopurself. sam Colt made the fire are to be an equalizer, so the weal could protect themselves. Get a gun, learn to use it, and relish your right to bear arms. with respect i say this to you. it seems to be the time to chose a side, what side you gonna chose? you think the govermnet is gonna be ablre to protect you if domeone breaks in your home at 2 am, ?the naswer is no, you will be hurt, and if lucky just tied up.

    • George

      Yeah, hook him up to a heart moniter, sit him down in a room, and hurl insults at him.

  • Indbill

    Rodin,

    Let me see if I understand you correctly!?

    Other countries don’t have guns, but their criminals commit less gun aided crimes.

    We have criminals with guns killing us. So if we get rid of the legal guns, our criminals will commit less gun aided crimes? Right?

    We have accidents with guns and people die. So, we should get rid of the guns because people had accidents with guns. Should we therefore also get rid of cars, steps, scissors, hammers, water, sidewalks, stairs, pencils, electricity, 2×4′s, doors, nails, etc. because people have been hurt or killed with them? I know same old argument just like yours!!

    I prefer to see people get guns, get training, practice, support each other and come to each others aid when a gun is needed. Less crime, injuries, mishaps and more community support and common interest to make our hometowns better.

    Why do we keep letting sheep try to lead us like sheep? Stand up on our own two legs and act like adults who can do things for themselves and not pretend that the government will fix everything for us… enough!

    Bye,

    Bill

    • Howard

      Good point Bill. My question is, “what has government ever done right for the people, they only work for the lobbyist(s)…..

    • rodin

      I’m sorry. But you should probably redefine your definition of sheep following. In the context of this argument in this forum, I don’t see myself “following” too many others. You people follow as many stupid people as you want. I and my family are much safer without guns and would be even safer without you having guns.

      • Roger Doxaras

        Rodin see my previous reply, illegal criminals don’t care…..to them you are a sheep with no way to defend your family. As I stated earlier the police can only act after you call them:

        Criminals will not allow you or family members to make that call
        During PD response time the crime is committed anyway
        Police arrive after the fact
        You pick up the pieces afterwards

        It is called COMMON SENSE Rodin!

      • George

        Rodin, you really believe that?
        I just think you are afraid of guns.

        Rodin, if you had a .38 within close reach, and somebody was raping your wife would you use it?

        If some monster was molesting your child, would you use it?

        If God forbid, YOU were being brutely RAPED, {prison style}…..really think about it.. would you use it?

        What would you do against home invaders? Allow them to do whatever they wanted to your children? You have a responsibility to ensure their safety.

        The Hurricane Katrina disaster has shown us that those who survived, were those who had some degree of self reliability. Those who perished, perished waiting for the government to rescue them. Its recommended that you call the police if you can during a crime, but while waiting for them to show up, you will need to be self reliant.

        If you have the means to stop a crime, and you choose not to, then you live with the unfortunate results, no complaining.

        People with Rodin’s veiw I just think, have never really thought this through, or have never had to deal with violent crime. Rodin is certainly well within his rights to dislike guns. Thats a personal choice, I just hope he understands that not everyone feels that way. Its fine, so long as he is not trying to destroy the RIGHTS of others.

      • George

        Oh and Rodin, you stated that you would be even safer without the rest of us having guns. Not true.
        Unless you believe that everyone writing in this forum is a bunch of violent criminals.

        Law abiding gun owners don’t commit crimes involving guns.

        Your kneejerk hatred for guns, {if I am reading you correctly} is based on the actions of CRIMINALS. If guns were bad, then those in law enforcement wouldn’t have them.

        You need to be your own personal cop, and protector of your family. The very fact that criminals have guns is the number one reason for the rest of us to have guns. You are even less likely to be a victem of a gun crime if the criminal knows you are armed. Its a deterent. Not too many cops get mugged or car jacked. There is a reason for this. LOL!

        I really wish you would not blur the lines that seperate CRIMINALS from law abiding gun owners. Thats so typical of the anti gun crowd. They blur the lines, and paint everyone the same color. Criminals and law abiders, its all the same to them. Thats just not being intellectually honest. They do this because they HATE first, think second.
        Take the emotion out of the gun debate.
        Please.

        • rodin

          George

          Unlike the gun proponents, arguments for gun control are less emotional… they’re based on cold hard statistics.. Societies in general are SAFER with gun control measures…. less people die…

          Sorry if my arguments sound hateful… they’re not meant to be hateful… they’re meant to take ALL the rhetoric out of it. For instance…. if you argued that guns in the hands of the public stopped criminals from using guns in crimes, then I’d want to take a look at the statistics of gun crime in the US and compare it against gun crime in the rest of the world. If you argued that guns actually stopped a rape, then I’d want to understand how many crimes were actually stopped by somebody with a handgun and compare that with the number of increased accidental deaths because the handguns were more accessable.

          AT the end of the day, the numbers prove that society in general is safer with gun controls, REGARDLESS of the fact you have criminals. I can’t say it any more dispassionately, but please look at the numbers. You’ll find the emotion is actually on the pro-gun side. FEAR is the driving force.

          • joe from tampa

            rodin i was thinking ignorant, not so much hateful. there’s an interesting picture floating around the net, i’ll put the link here for anyone curious, that illustrates everything wrong with overbearing gun control.

            http://rudd-o.com/uploads/2008/06/1214507617361.jpg

        • George

          No Rodin, your comments don’t sound hateful.
          Its tough to find real science these days, as science has become politicized. Polls and stats are often manipulated to control the outcome by a vested interest.
          Global Warming is a prime example. The data is totally manipulated. I bet if I were to get some stats from the NRA I would find that gun crime is down in states where there are looser gun laws.

          Well I guess Rodin, if I am truthful, I realize that both sides of the gun debate get emotional.

          Again though, if someone was raping or stabbing your wife, and you had a gun on your person, would you use it? You cannot argue that guns are effective at stopping cold a crime in progress.

          I once caught a burgler in my home in the 90′s when I lived in the city. I had to chase him for a quarter mile and physically beat him with my fists in order to subdue him. After that, I held him until the police showed up. He was arrested and charged. I would have been a whole lot safer if I had a gun. If I had a gun on me, I wouldn’t have risked getting stabbed. I walked away unharmed, but it could have turned out worse. Thats one more criminal off the street. Do you think he’d come back to my house? You cannot make it easy on these people. When it comes to crime, I do not believe in a fair fight.

          My cousin was attacked in a Tennessee parking lot by 3 knife wielding thugs. She is a devout Christian. By some miracle, as 2 of them attempted to stab her, and she prayed out loud for protection, not one knife blade penetrated her. As the third thug yelled “Harder! Harder!”, the 2 thugs with the knives seemed confused as to why she would not bleed. This story is an incredible one, and my cousin was invited to go on the Maury Povitch Show and retold her story.
          Most of us would not be that lucky. A handgun in her purse would have ended that bad situation quickly.

          I am in favor of criminal background checks. Thats just common sense.

          Its also a fact that more people die each year from perscription drugs than they do in accidental shootings.

          I know lots of people with guns, and not one of them has any intention of using them to commit any crimes.

          Where I live now, I am safer owning guns. Wild animals are a potential threat, and I am glad to have a gun if I need it. Crime is just about nonexistant here, but there are other threats. Me and my neighbor measured 5 3/8 inch tracks that came right up to his window at his house. He has 2 little girls, and they play in the yard. You get between a mother bear and her cubs, you will find yourself in real trouble. Guns are just a smart idea for some of us.

          Obama hates guns. Obama grew up in the City of Chicago. His idea of guns are that guns are used by criminals to commit crimes. He has no clue, no first hand experience living on the outskirts of society. He does not know whats best for me.

          Guns will never be eradicated. If we try, only law abiding people will comply. That alone will give criminals an upper hand.

          I agree with you that society is safer with certain gun control measures, such as the criminal background check I mentioned eariler. Proper training is not a bad idea either. I don’t want an unstable nutjob freely buying guns anymore than you do.

          But the heart of the discussion is that we have a Second Amendment Right to keep and bear arms. The founders determined that “Rights” came from God, not the government. The government gives “Privileges” not rights.
          And that right shall not be infringed.
          Shall not be infringed.

      • JeffH

        Rodin…the only thing you should follow are the steps to the NUT HOUSE! Your logic is up in space somewhere.

  • carl r. condon

    these are the same old tired arguments that ive been listening to all my life. guns kill. guns are bad.
    i won’t even go into those worn out statements. im a gun owner. i have a permit to carry concealed, and i do. i have been shooting all my life. a gun is a tool. it can be used for good or bad. the same as any other tool. in the right hands its a good thing. in the wrong its bad.
    people have a god given right to defend themselves.
    i once had a person tell me they would rather depend on god and the police to protect them. i laughed at that one. the police are NOT here to defend us. they are responders. they will protect your dead body after you have been murdered by some nut looking for drugs or money. but they can do nothing untill the deed is done. so where does that leave us? any ideas? i have one. a 9mm glock.

    carry on.

    • http://donthaveone Mark

      Amen brother. I am not allowed to have any firearms, having a felony conviction from 15 years ago for taking baseball cards out of an employers dumpster, so I have had the right to bear arms taken away from me. However, I am sure glad we are allowed as a whole to bear arms. When asked why they didnt invade the main land when they bombed Pearl Harbor, the leading Japenese military men, said it would have been suicide, as they cited how our population was armed. If we werent allowed to carry guns way back then, they would have marched in and taken us over, and we would all be speaking Japenese here in American, instead of Spanish. Oops, did I say that aloud, How politically incorrect of me. Anyhow, I am glad people like you carry arms and will dread the day when these left wing liberals appeasing pacifists get their way and disarm the public, so that only the criminal and those wishing to take us over have arms. These guys are dangerous, and I dont think those that vote for them realize just who they are dealing with when they vote for these guys. They are very anti-American, and all you have to do is take the time and listen to what they say and what they stand for, and you dont have to be too educated to understand just how dangerous they are to the American way of life. Wake up people, wake up.

      • JeffH

        Mark, your case shows the real lolgic of “non-violent” crimes and punishment.

    • Bill in Indiana

      Glocks are good, my choice recently was a P226 Sig Sauer… also a 9mm!! :>)

      • JeffH

        I prefer the weight and feel of the Beretta 92FS/M9.

    • SSG Prasuhn

      To: Carl R. Condon and Bill in Indiana…

      I agree with your ‘choices of carry’… 9mm

      Also agreed upon is the fact that (NOW GET THIS LIBBIES!!)…The police are NOT (I say again N-O-T) required to ‘Protect and Serve’ when YOU are in NEED of their services. And, as it has been said, ‘they’ (the police) are (for the most part) ‘reactionary’ in their response to crime. They may and can ‘deter’ crime by their mere presence ‘on the beat’ (foot patrol) or motor patrols but once the crime has been committed (taken place) they can ONLY ‘respond’. How the HELL does that ‘protect’ you? And of what ‘service’ is it to the victim(s) after the fact?

      I too carry a 9mm and my ‘motto’ IS… “My gun is my 911 — 9mm, 1 shot, 1 kill”

      Again, for the ‘LIBBIES’ — READ, READ and Re-READ “The Constitution’ and the “Bill of Rights”. PAY ATTENTION to the words. They MEAN what they SAY, there is NO interpretation as to their meaning(s). Our Founding Fathers KNEW what they were talking about. The ONLY way to guarantee that you will KEEP your FREEDOM(s) is by defending them (to the death) by use of a G U N!! There is NO other way for this to happen. The ‘GUN’ provides the ‘strong defense’ needed to PROTECT those rights and the ‘LAW-ABIDING’ citizens of this country of ours (or any country for that matter).

      Next time you’re up against a criminal with a gun and your partner/friend has their weapon on them (and knows how to use it) and all you have is your faith in God to protect you, guess who’s going to survive?? You would probably be the first to go down (die), the criminal would be the second and your friend would be the one to walk away from the ordeal (unscathed). Then again, you may well survive the ordeal as well BUT that would depend on just how fast your partner/friend was on the draw agains the criminal. Unless you’re realy, realy, lucky at the ‘craps’ table, I wouldn’t be making any ‘book’ on the ‘best’ outcome or your encounter.

      ‘Nuff Said’

      • http://donthaveone Mark

        Mr. Prasuhn. Mark in Indiana here. God Bless people that think clearly like you do. Hand guns in the hands of responsible citizens like you, are a great deterrent to the criminal element, whether it is them knowing there is a chance the homeowner might have a gun, or whether by chance you have your gun and come upon someone committing a crime where a gun is needed in a responsible hand to stop it, or contain it until the police arrive. I dont own a gun, never have, and maybe I never will, but I fully support the right you have to own a gun, to carry a gun, and to use that gun to carry out righteousness. I guess I dont understand the left wing liberal pacifist appeasers that want to weaken us with every little thing, one after another. I mean, just because they want to be like little girls and pee in their pants and suck up to our enemies who want to kill us, doesnt mean we all are wimps. Unforturnately many of these pants wetters have made it into high politcal positions, and their stench puts a stain on all of us Americans. They have it all backwards. If you look through the history of the earth, peace has come as a result of force, not as a result of lets sit down and Ill listen to you tell me lies. These bastards are dangerous, and there will come a time when we will all need people like you with your guns to keep us from being overrun. I thank you for being a good strong American, and having your head on straight.

      • JeffH

        SSG Prasuhn I concur and I repeat, gun control is hitting what you aim at!

  • Cal

    An interesting letter in the Australian Shooter Magazine this week, which I quote: “If you consider that there has been an average of 160,000 troops in the Iraq theater of operations during the past 22 months, and a total of 2112 deaths, that gives a firearm death rate of 60 per 100,000 soldiers.

    The firearm death rate in Washington, DC is 80.6 per 100,000 for the same period. That means you are about 25 per cent more likely to be shot and killed in the US capital, which has some of the strictest gun control laws in the US, than you are in Iraq.

    Conclusion: The US should pull out of Washington.”

    • http://LrgalChallenges Dave

      Amen to that, there don’t seem to be anything in Washington, thats friendly toward the Good Ol’ USA………leave them on their own………that would be something for funnist videos

    • http://donthaveone Mark

      Well first of all, look at the mentality of those who live in Washington, DC. Their mayor Marion Barry was caught with crack cocaine, and these dumb-asses voted him back into office. I guess that pretty much sums up the mentality of the Washington DC private sector. Of course Id be considered a racist if I pointed out that it is what, like 70 to 80 percent black there, and 90 percent of the crime is black on black crime, but somehow its all whiteys fault. But then again, we arent allowed to use truthful facts in reporting things, are we ABC, NBC, CBS, CNN and MSNBC, or the NY Times and LA Times. Dont tell the truth whatever you do.

    • Bill in Indiana

      The math is actually backwards… it should be slightly more that 33.3% not 25%! Makes it even more significant!

  • David

    Actually, there are parts of Kalifornia where you can get a concealed weapons permit with no hassle. I know, I have one and have had it for nearly 10 years. Only requirements were those set by the state. Four hour classroom instruction and range test. Every two years a four hour class on the changes in the law, etc and automatic renewal…

  • norm

    Any one who needs to walk around with a glock or baretta concealed on their person has a problem. They are:
    a cop,
    carrying a LOT of cash,
    hoplessly paranoid,
    a drug dealer or other type criminal,
    being sought by enemies,
    a latent homosexual,
    a right wing extremest living in fantasyland.

    • http://donthaveone Mark

      Or maybe a professional athlete, successful businessman, highly recognized actor, or someone who may be a target because they are recognized and bad guys know they got money. Or maybe you live in an area where you have gotten robbed before, or maybe your just an American who is sick and tired of these bad guys being the only ones with guns and bullying people around, so this evens it up. Im a convicted felon, and I cant have a gun. Im dangerous, I took some baseball cards out of a dumpster 15 years ago and got a felony conviction for it. But I cannot, as a lover of American, as a lover of Freedom, and as a lover of Jesus Christ as my Lord, begrudge anyone who chooses to legally own or carry a firearm. It would be my hope that if Im ever in a situation that comes upon me, that someone like this would be around to come to my aid and help. Dude, do you realize how many more crimes would take place if it was known that you cant have a weapon? Dont you realize that those with bad intent are going to have them anyways? Most the criminals that have them now, do so illegally. So you think illegalizing them for the responsible person would cut down on crime and people getting shot? Dude, seriously, put down the crack pipe and think about what your saying. You cant really be serious. Talk about living in a fanstasy land. Wow. I must be an evil wizard too, because I have never met you, and I can tell that you pulled the Barrack Obama lever when you voted, you think Nancy Pelosi is good, you love the Kennedy’s, you think Rush Limbaugh is evil and that Sean Hannity should be shut down. You believe something Joe Biden says. You are against waterboarding, and believe our enemy prisoners should be afforded lawyers at our cost. You want the ten commandments removed from government buildings, and God to still be banned from schools. You like the thought of using our tax payer money to kill babies overseas, and that is good that we can do it here.

    • Dana

      Gee Wiz,
      I don’t qualify. I guess I should give up my gun. Bull shit…never happen. My son was at a party last year in an upscale part of Salt Lake, the owner came into HIS bedroom only to find an illegal alien loading up his personal belongings to a buddy outside his window. In the scuffle, 4 innocent citizens were stabbed by the criminal before an armed citizen could stop the assailant at gunpoint until the police arrived. I believe people live in a haze sometimes, in denial that anything could happen to them. Get a clue, these people committing crimes are criminals and it is my Constitutional right to carry (by Legal Permit) a concealed weapon. I will never give up that right. No weak, uneducated insult can convince me that I am wrong. You mamby, pamby bone heads don’t get it…It is my Constitutional Right, I won’t give it up. Incidentaly, it is the same Constitution that gives you the right to Privacy, Free Speech, Pursuit of Happiness, etc.

    • Howard

      no norm— they just want protection from those you listed from the criminal side, or just someone who wants what you have, either you money or your family or your life… Simple as that …. Any first grader can tell you that….

  • JOHN—————-U.K.

    The way i see it don`t conceale it wear it in a holster for all to see

    • Howard

      Then John, you will be the first to be shot by the thugs who will take out those who provide a threat to them…… Keep it concealed, make em guess who is going to shoot THEM….. Atta Boy..

  • Dick

    Read the Bible, not for religion but for history. The Old Testament, and the New, is filled with violence and pronouncements against man’s inhumanity to man. It reports 5,000 years of man’s violent history. Robbery, Rape, Theft, Con Games, and War are described and reviled against for a thousand pages.
    With that background simply pick up any newspaper and read of the same problems of 5,000 years ago. Killings, Drunk driving, Rape, Robbery, Con games on the Internet–an endless stream of criminal violence.
    To my thinking man has not advanced, socially, enough in 10,000 years to be noticable.
    Our founding fathers were well educated and experienced in the social problems from which they escaped by coming to North America. Virtually every person in this country is here because someone in their ancestory came here to ESCAPE from the age old problems of Europe and other places. They are still trying to do so, witness the Mexicans, even at the risk of life. Crossing the Atlantic in a sailing vessel in the 17th and 18th centuries was deadly and no fun and many lost their lives. Crossing our southern desert in the summer is no fun and many have lost their lives. Why?, to try to ESCAPE to a better life. .
    When our founders created this country they wrote into the Constitution as the Second of Ten Amendments, which are admonitions AGAINST the goverment, that to keep and bear arms was a RIGHT, not a privilege granted by government. We still have to defend ourselves against the criminal of today, just as we did at our beginning.
    The new generations always have to be retaught in the proper way of doing things. Since WWII we have failed in this mission, witness the banking problems today because the post WWII generation did not learn from their fathers the rules of banking. Witness the con games on the Internet because we did not learn from the exploits of Al Capone in Chicago..
    I plead, before we lose it all, to PLEASE, anyone, stop trying to subjugate the Constitution. Self defense is still, after 10,000 years, necessary to a bit of peace and stability. The RIGHTS of defense of self, family, and home, Abortion, Religion, Speech, Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness are not of government concern.
    ‘nuf said
    Dick

    • SSG Prasuhn

      Dick….

      WELL SAID!!!! (APPLAUSE!! APPLAUSE!! CHEERS! (and crowd noises) MORE CHEERS and APPLAUSE!!!

      ‘Nuff Said’

  • Sunshine

    I was once afraid of guns even though I was around them growing up and was once married to a hunter. I do not like the direction our country is going and I am very concerned about this ONE WORLD ORDER that is rapidly approaching. When we are a “one world government” who will protect US from the tirants? No one. Who will rule the world? Who knows but prower breeds corruption so we are sure to fall into the situation like the government controlled countries that exist today. I do not want that kind of life for me or my kids so I have learned to shoot. The government won’t protect us – matter of fact they are selling us out – so I figure I better learn to protect my kids and I.

    • Howard

      Shine on Sunshine… You are right.

  • http://www.ozanneministry.com David Ozanne

    Consider these facts. All the mass shootings in the recent past have been in “GUN FREE” places. Columbine, Virginia Tech and others.
    Then check out how many have been killed as the result of Gun control. 170,000,000 people world wide.
    I do not like those statistics and I do not want to be one of those statistics.
    How many more would still be alive if some one had carried a gun and stopped the deranged shooters with a well placed bullet.

    • rodin

      So according to your logic, the kids at Columbine should have been carrying guns to protect themselves…

      Sad… very sad.

      • http://donthaveone Mark

        No, but maybe some administrators, janitors, teachers. All it took was one, and many of these kids would be alive today. Your read on the logic is twisted, and Im wondering if your twisted also.

        • Springer

          I think the same thing Mark. He’s got his head so far up osama’s ass he can’t see
          the plain truth in front of him.

      • JeffH

        rodin: How do you propose to protect yourself should some criminal confront you with a gun and threaten you and your family?
        STOP OR I’LL CALL THE POLICE BAD GUY! Or maybe give him a hug because he can’t help being a criminal and drug addict.

  • ONTIME

    The public’s knowledge about how the law works is slowly sinking in, the police enforce the law passed down by the courts, the Constitution protects your rights by telling the government what it is not allowed to do and the police do not protect you directly, they prevent crime. Is a legal gun owner a criminal, absolutely not.

    A gun permitt by law will help you protect yourself, your loved ones and your property and will be a deterrent to crime thus aiding the police in their crime prevention. These people who are trying very hard to legislate against your legal right to own and carry a weapon are setting you up to be attacked by a criminal who has no regard for the law.

    • Shain

      I don’t believe in permits being mandated as a requirement to carry a gun as allowed by the highest law of the land.

      What are permits for? It is a backwards situation from which the Founders are concerned. If you are carrying a gun, is SHOULD first be represented as whether it is being used in an unlawful act before it should be questioned by any peace officer. Just having it on your person is not an unlawful act, unless you are a convicted felon who has had their rights removed by court.

      This was an argument postulated by Dave Champion, in which he gave a challenge of people to concealed carry, without a permit, and see how people react to it, especially after they know who you are after a while.

  • Beepster

    The government is controlled by the Federal Reserve (not a Federal agency), Wall Street (Central Bankers), and the Bilderburg Goup of 125 of the richest bankers in the world. The connection to gun control? Simple. If there are no guns of any kind by citizens, they rule with an iron fist. Gun control is for the “simple” citizens, and they could care less about criminals, as they are no threats to their World Order. All this/these is/are the agenda to world control by the few. They don’t want ANY opposition by the masses of humanity.

  • http://none James Chappell

    It is interesting. The Constitution of the United States says we have a RIGHT to bear arms. It is not qualified as to whether the “arm”; firearm, is a long rifle, shot gun, hand gun, machine gun or assault weapon. Somehow, our RIGHT has been converted into a privilege called a permit and/or license. A permit or license is granting one a privilege to do that which would be illegal without.
    I believe it was in the Miranda v. Arizona case wherein the court held, “When one’s rights are concerned there can be no rule making or legislation that would ever abrogate them.”
    If we are demanding our rights, we should not be demanding our right for a permit or license. This is an oxymoron.

    • rodin

      Lets all load up on rocket launchers.

      • True TEXAN

        Maybe you should have your right to free speech lifted! You are so much in favor of wanting to destroy others rights that if your rights were lifted then you would scream like a pig caught under the gate. You are one that has your nose in others business and no sense of the real world because you live in a vacuum. You are the type of person that wants to take the USA down and then when that happens and the Utopia you thought you helped create turns out it is not what you thought then you realize what a stupid moron you were! Then the ones such as us that beleive in the Constitution will still be in control of our lives! You will run up crying about how your rights have been stripped and how we should help you! But I know who those peolpe are in my Neighborhood! They will be left to fend for themselves! I will not show them no pitty! They are the ones trying to destroy our freedoms! SO to HELL with them I hope they rot with all of the other LEFT WING LIBERALS that want to tell everyone here in the USA how to live and act as long as it does not affect their lifes. Get a life RODIN! People like you are the reason the world is in this shape and you probably have been allowed to breed and corrupt your offspring. That is what scares me! SO when the Revolution starts I hope to run across you face to face and see you with your stick or club because you were too stupid to understand. I will not protect your kind! I will allow your kind to parish so that we may cleanse the world of such fanatics as yourself!

  • David H

    In Ohio and Florida there are cities that require people to carry guns. Before the initiatives went into effect there were the usual complaints that it would become like the “old west” and people would be dropping like flies. In actuality, within a few days of the law going into effect, the police departments were relegated to writing parking tickets, because there were no other crimes being committed.

  • gary kaalberg

    there is no accurate test to know what a person would do under stress. i am a vet who is 100% diabled due to ptsd. i have a small armory in my home and even under the woest stress i have never pulled a weapon on anyone. i have the arms for when this country falls apart and thats not to far off. i will be able to defend and protect my family and loved ones. why is it that they can prevent normal people from obtaining firearms but yet they cannot get tough with likes of ms13 and other gangs

    • Kimo

      Gary, i know you are tellin the truth bro, i too am a Nam vet, and i want no more vionlence after what we have seen, but, someone has to protect the kids and women, and there are not enough cops to do the job, and, we dont want that many, we are already living in a police stae, and a land where soon one will be jailed for his political views. look up, stand up, everyone here i see posting, we are all of the same mind, and we are MANY. All we have to do now is gather together, and take a stand for bringing back the constitution, and a 56 chevy would be nice but not nessesarry. Carry on bro.

  • http://Rodin Ray

    I see much “talk” defending our 2nd Amendment but, little action. Perhaps it is time we all make a real and peaceful( I mean, really peaceful, without threats or weapons or much fanfare, other than our physical presence) to protest in Washington and all over the Country to show the strength in numbers so, we can be recognized as a united front of Patriots who take the 2nd Amendment seriously and will not be intimidated by a bunch of pseudo government bullies who want to make mincemeat of our Rights under the Constitution. Please, bear in mind that the 2nd Amendment was created to keep the check and balances and the government to be honest. I mean, is this still a Country of the People, by the People, and for the People; or a bunch of lambs ready to be slaughtered by a socialist , nazi or any other type of regime? I am an advocate of Peace but, Don’t Tread On Me!

    • JeffH

      The biggest voice for gun rights already exists, join the NRA or at least contribute to them or join/support your local or state pro gun rights organization. You can keep track of anti-gun legislation through the NRA-ILA or your state organizations. Last but not least, contact your representatives and let them know where you stand on the ant-gun isuues, including your governors and the White House.
      Do not let up for even 1 minute.

  • David Hall

    One of these long days, folks will soon get it. Un-arm the law-abidding public. The
    corruption and lawlessness of the Federal Government, lawlessness of society
    criminals, (WIN) you become totally helpless. NO-BRAINER, where’s the DEBATE?
    Our Fore-Fathers and Founders, I’m sure are laughing their gutts out, where ever
    they are, in their graves or Glory, sayin what a joke.

  • eric

    I think everyone should carry a concealed weapon, then everyone will have one, people will be less likely to mess with you knowing you may be armed.

    • Howard

      That is why crime is down in areas where CCP is the going thing….

  • D. Jones

    What are these Democratic politicians afraid of? Americans are standing up for their rights. We live in America and are entitled to our Second Amendment Rights, that’s what this country is built on. Dems want to take our rights away, so they accuse us of being criminals. We are all law-abiding citizens and already passed a background check.

    • Howard

      It is time that Americans understand who the basic crooks are, and when they find out it is the Democratic thugs we have in Congress, then the next step and vote the bastards out in 2010 and the big one in 2012…. Just do what you think is right, and vote for conservatives, not the demonatzi’s and their Acorn buddies.

      • D. Jones

        I am smart enough not to vote these Democrat crooks back into office, so they can enhance their power to pay for their luxurious lifestyles, and these politicians still want to put me under their control.

        For those Democrats who still rely on your Welfare checks, you should appreciate the Republicans who are smart enough to keep these Democrats from taking people’s money; Democrat politicians think they have earned it just because they are representing you.

  • Kimo

    eric is right, if everyone carried a gun, the respect level would go up fast. There would be a few gun battles at first, but that would weed out those that are criminals, and the true violent ones. Women would sease to be raped, the goverment would cease violating our rights.

  • barterman

    if gun control is the answer,why is it that the cities that have the toughest gun control laws also have the highest crime rates?it might have something to do with the fact that a criminal usually doesn’t obey the law or didn’t get the memo that said it’s illegal to carry a gun and he knows that you won’t have one because you obey the law.

    • rodin

      The cities you might be talking about, ie Washington, had huge gun problems BEFORE gun control was brought in. In this respect, the gun control is like taking a fly swatter to a grizzly, since guns are still so easily accessable through the rest of the country surrounding them. Gun control needs to be absolute and country wide. Then the US can gradually eliminate the criminals guns through attrition to levels like the rest of the world where US guns can’t get to.

      • http://www.ozanneministry.com David Ozanne

        How about the 170,000,000 people killed as a result of the gun control you advocate? Ask the Jews of the second world war why they didn’t have guns to defend themselves.

      • Howard

        hey rodin, where do you think criminals get their guns, at WalMart??? No, from the criminal element from down South, or from the thugs in government….Do you think time will solve that??? Man, get a life..

      • JeffH

        Zip it! Move to Cuba!

  • Chris

    Gary and kimo “THANK YOU” for your service. I did my time in 2/22inf 10th mtn and i was trained to defend myself and family. now that im out im suppost to forget that and trust the police or government. not a chance. Hey Osama…… i mean obama ill give up my guns when your secret service gives up their’s. No thats a lie. I’ll never give you my guns except muzzle first. Buy guns Buy ammo learn your rights. organize and together give a big NO to the liberals trying to styfile your rights. the thing is gun control is a front cause they cant stop the real criminals. the day the assault wepons ban came out bill clingon pardoned 13 convicted fellons. but no body heard about that did they. want the truth go to the nra home cite and listen to real patriots like savage, hanity, and levin. Please read Liberty and Tyranny. it is so true what the obama zombies are doing to this great country. A call to arms

  • Chris

    By the way you libs if i were ever to see some one trying to rape your wife and murder you and your kids and im there i hope i still have a gun be able to stop it. even if you cant or wont protect your family i would.

    • JeffH

      second that Chris!

  • Springer

    “I do solemnly swear to uphold and defend the Constitution of the United States of America…….so help me God”.
    Hmmmm………..seems to me that anyone in Congress that votes for ANY changes to the Constitution has just committed purgery! That person needs to be thrown out on the spot!
    “Ban ALL guns.” WHAT? ARE YOU INSANE?
    Tell the millions of Jews in Nazi Germany how gun control will make all the land safer.

  • http://none James Chappell

    Gun control is a misnomer. Guns are not really “controlled” they are registered, confiscated and eliminated. There is no marking on a gun that delineates it as being civil or criminal, therefore there is no such thing as a “criminal gun.” The holder/owner decides to act in a criminal way or not. If they decide to use a knife, gun or their bare hands, it is their choice that makes it criminal NOT the weapon or item of choice.
    “Eliminating the criminals guns through attrition to levels like the rest of the world where US guns can’t get to”, assumes US guns are the only supplier of guns in the world. This is ridiculous.
    The Founding Fathers of this country knew if the people had no way of protecting themselves, the government, through their heavily armed military, could easily “load them on a train to the showers.” Ask any Jew if they think being left defenseless is an advantage.
    Our constitutional rights are not mandatory FOR THE CLAIMANT. No one is required under the Constitution of the United States to own or carry a firearm. However, if you so chose, you may as it is your RIGHT.

  • OMG

    You don’t want history to repeat itself, because GENOCIDE is considered one of the worst moral crimes a government can commit against its citizens or those it controls.

    In the past DICTATORS (including STALIN, HITLER, POL POT of Khmer Rouge, etc..), some even used the military to coup the government. Military and the police came to citizen’s houses in the middle of the night and took them away; they murdered their own citizens or locked them up.

  • OMG

    Obama’s Chief of Staftt, Rahm Emanuel or Henry Kissinger should know when the government takes your rights away or your guns away, they know you can’t fight back as proven in history by the crime of genocide.

    By the way, if you let Obama’s administration takes your guns away, then you better be prepared for the worst!

    • Howard

      The whole liberal establishment wants to take your guns from you. They do not respect the Constitution or the 2nd amendment….. they want to control your life with big government…. they want business to fail so that that you as an employee will have to depend on the lib govt for your next meal…. wake up. vote the American dream, and vote against the libs…….

      • David

        There are many things going on in DC right now that are downright wrong. I have been there twice to meet with my House and Senate leaders (and it isn’t hard to arrange either) to discuss cap/trade and the new card check union bs bill. While visiting with these people, I was informed that industry needs to pull together as a whole, as one big lobby and advertise on prime time TV so that the public can be enlightened about what is truely happening. It’s the only way that we could possibly compete with Sierra Club and other agencies with deep pockets and specific agendas. I am proud to see the energy companies fighting back concerning oil drilling and clean coal technology.

        The comments above, except for Rodin’s, are right on but now we have to figure out how to educate the public as this blog reaches a fraction of people. I would think the NRA could help. Any thoughts?

  • BaltimoreMan

    My Bible and Guns Comfort Me // Elitist Politicians Make Me Bitter

    An armed man is a citizen // An unarmed man is a subject

  • Norm

    Mark,
    You ALMOST got me pegged.
    However, I’ve been a Republican for all of my adult life. I used to listen to Rush and Sean ( I have a long work commute) although I didn’t always agree with them. Since Rush decided he wants to see America fail, I’ve labeled him an A–hole.
    I’ve been a hunter for much of my life as well. I own 2 rifles and a 12ga shotgun.
    No one needs to carry concealed weapons. No need to own assault refiles, 30 cal. and 50 cal. machine guns etc. For you Bible belchers, Jesus Christ didn’t carry weapons.
    I don’t carry a weapon and I’ve never needed one.

    • http://donthaveone Mark

      I dont carry a firearm Norm, never have, and Ive never owned one. But I fully support someones right to own them. If there comes a day when the government is trying to push me out, or the enemy comes to our shores and there is neighborhood battles, you better believe I will arm myself. Those that allready have are probably a little smarter than I, and for that I support them. I agree no one needs to own an M-50, or these automatic assault rifles these gangster thugs use committing crimes. Those should go. But any law abiding citizen, should be able to carry a .38, or a .45 or a 357 magnum, or any concealed gun of their choice. I have personally seen the use of these stop crimes at business’s where I happened to be at what some could call the wrong time. Legal legitimate business, like grocery stores in a good part of town. A law abiding citizen pulled out his concealed weapon and made the perpetrator dis-arm himself and lay on the ground until the cops arrived. If he wasnt there, who knows what this junkie that had the gun robbing the place would have done. Gun control means using both hands. Thats all I got.

    • http://donthaveone Mark

      And I really dont know where you get Rush wants America to fail. He never said that. Obama is not America. In fact, I dont believe he even is an American. If he was, I think he would have openly revealed that instead of still hiding the proof. What is not American, is when a political party gives the country a black eye in front of the world, one that throws its own country under the bus, in an attempt to gain political agenda based power over its opponent, like the democrats did with Gitmo. I dont care what anybody says. Its a military prison, and let the military do their thing to get info. The dems caused the country great harm making a mountain out of a molehile, all to discredit their opposition at election time. Yes, that is what I and millions of people find un American, is bashing your own country to gain political agenda based power. That is wanting America to fail, when you throw her as a whole under the bus for your own personal gain. Thats what failing is all about. They dont care about whether waterboarding is torture or anything, as they knew about it at the onset. It was all politically based, another left wing lie to make the other guy look bad. When youve got nothing on the ball to make your party look good, you make the other guy look bad. Thats all the dems have, and this desperate measure is going to kick them squarely in the butt in 2012, because Americans are fed up with your lies allready. It is all coming to the forefront now, and all these truths will be revealed, and your lying snively coniving pacifist appeasing pants wetting lefties are going down.

  • OMG!

    Americans don’t have to give up their Second American rights just because Democratic politicians or any individual demands you to. It is YOUR RIGHT to own a gun.

    With things changing so rapidly in Washington for the worst and politicians selling you out, with no jobs and trillions and trillions of dollars in bailout money given away at taxpayers’ expense, should you trust your politicians?

  • OMG!

    Freedom-of-religion and the right to bear arms are your Amendment rights, Democrats attack us but at the same time they preach to us about hate.

    Obama should go after criminals and the drug cartels for obtaining guns illegally, NOT AFTER AMERICAN CITIZENS who are law abiding and have the right to choose to own a gun or not.

    • http://donthaveone Mark

      The dems dont want us to have guns, so only they will. It will be easier for them to enforce their socialistic regime then. All socialists countries have the government have the guns, and the people are dis-armed. Another first step of Barrack me momma’s socialist plan. Bastards.

      • JeffH

        If the people have guns, they can protect themselves from tyranny.
        Obama might not like that!

  • Springer

    “We the people………..”
    What better way to put it?
    WE can change things by changing who we elect to go to Washington.
    Until WE elect some people who will represent US, and I do mean The United States, then WE need to be vigilant and let the “Freedom Takers” now in office know that WE are watching and learning. Write, call and visit them, OFTEN. Don’t let a day go by that you don’t call or email them. The sheer numbers of calls and emails cannot be ignored. They will get the message that if WE are not represented the way WE think WE should be, next election, they are out of a job.
    WE survive together, or not at all!

    • SSG Prasuhn

      Well said, Springer!!! Many people probably have NEVER seen the ‘Constitution of the United States’, its ‘Preamble’ or the ‘Bill of Rights’ or ‘realized’ that in that ‘Preamble’ that ‘WE’ is the FIRST word. Hear that Libbies??? ‘WE is the FIRST word!! Not ‘ME’, ‘MY’ or ‘MINE’…..’WE’ as in ‘US’ (also known as ‘U.S.’ or ‘United States’) and/or even ‘OUR’.

      It IS NOT a ‘ME’ first world! Never was and NEVER will be.

      Anyone ever thing that maybe (just maybe) those with the ‘ME’ first attitude might be dyslexic?? If you take the ‘M’ in ‘ME’ and turn it upside down, what do you have? Answer: ‘WE’

      Also, for all you ‘Anti-Gunners’ out there….I spent 20-years in the US Army (there’s that word again….’US’) defending your, my and ‘our’ ‘Right To Keep And Bear Arms’ (and the other nine ‘Bill of Rights’ — Number 1 being (your) ‘The Right To FREE Speech’ (think you’ll get that without ‘guns’ (the Second Amendment) to ‘BACK IT UP’??? NOT!!) and to ‘Protect and Defend’ the “Constitution of the United States’….from ALL ENEMIES foreign or domestic. That was some 44 years ago (1965 the first time, then again in 1977) when I took that ‘Oath of Enlistment’. I’ve been retired nearly 15-years now and I STILL HOLD TO THAT OATH. I WILL DEFEND it unto the death!! It is pretty much the same ‘Oath of Office’ that our (so-called) Congressmen/Women and Representatives took when sworn into office (after being ‘duly elected’ by US, their BOSSES). Guess who STILL ‘lives up’ to ‘that oath’??

      It’s NOT just the Domocrats who are ‘tearing’ our country down and apart. The Republicans also had (have) a hand in it as well. Our ONLY chance of ‘survival’ is to get BOTH parties OUT of office and put a new, FRESH, ‘ideal’ in office. How fresh of an ideal you say? How about the one that started this country — THAT of our Fore-Fathers. ‘THAT’ ideal is just as good today as it was 235 years ago (beginning in 1774). At least ‘then’ they were ALL thinking ‘of and for’ the country and NOT for themselves. In other words ‘they’ were NOT of the ‘ME FIRST’ mind set, like many seem to be today.

      Those who debase the ‘Constitution’, the ‘Bill of Rights’, etc. (to me) are NOTHING but TRAITORS to those ideals.

      If it ‘should’ come down that the ‘Anti-Gun Lobby’ wins their agenda and all guns are confiscated and this country falls under Dictatorship rule (where NO ONE has any rights — or priveleges for that matter) then I want to take this time to thank you folks for turning my 20-year ‘commitment’ in defending our country into a TOTAL LOSS and a WASTE of my time and efforts. Don’t you feel soooooo good about that? LOSERS!!!

      On the ‘gun’ thing. The ONLY ones (or things) that should FEAR a gun is the TARGET!!! So, if you don’t have the ‘mind set’ of a TARGET, then you have NOTHING to fear!!

      ‘Nuff Said’,

      Bye!!

  • http://yahoo keithercars

    Why isn”t anything being said about zoning ordinances?Zoning is a giant power grab by governments on a local level.I do NOT believe I should have to get government permission to put up a shed or pool etc; on MY PROPERTY,What happened too a government by the people for the people?Lets put our government back in chains where they belong ,before they put us in chains.Can”t happen here;Its happening. WAKE UP PEOPLE Thanks Keith

  • rodin

    Lori

    You are sadly mistaken in everyone of your “facts” . The FACT is that the US has almost three times the rate of childhood homicides due to firearms than any other country in the world. I didn’t say numbers.. I said rate.. that means for you statistically challenged morons on this site, the amount per 100,000 population. Your children are dying with your handguns at a rate almost 3 times the rest of the world. What does that tell you idiots. You have too many F@#$ing guns.

    Comparing Canada and Europe to the US, deaths due to firearms are over 4 times greater for the overall population. Don’t give me stupid statistics about how Canada had an increase in crime when it created it’s gun registry. the FACTS are that it did NOT and has been on a secular decline for the past 30 years. The rest of the Canadian facts are that the law did NOTHING to change gun ownership or handgun ownership or rights to purchase guns. There has been NO real change in Canadian gun rights for the past 50 years. They just can’t buy them with impunity the same way that Americans can. The FACT is that you are more likely to be killed by a handgun in the US than any Western country with slightly more gun control.

    • Springer

      Where do you find your “facts”?
      What percentage of those “homocides” were in self defense?
      How many children were helpless victims of a violent crime where the parents weren’t allowed to protect themselves with a firearm?
      Too many “facts” are distorted and downright lied about.
      Seperate the actual percentages of illegal activity and “accidents” and see what you come up with.
      Just because a firearm was involved does not mean it was only used in an illegal activity, but used in self defense, therefore, do not include it in your “facts”.
      Nazis Germany also had “facts” like you mention. Did the Jews and law abiding
      citizens think they had “too many f$%^ing guns”?

      “The FACT is that you are more likely to be killed by a handgun in the US than any Western country with slightly more gun control.”
      Your more likely to be killed in a car accident or struck by lightning than killed by a law abiding citizen with a firearm.

      • Rodin

        OMG – You really are nuts if you think any significant number of the children killed by guns were “helpless victims of a violent crime where the parents weren’t allowed to protect themselves with a firearm”. Give your head a shake and get out of the Jack Daniels. We’re talking thousands of kids being killed. Why don’t you start looking up the real statistics and get your head out of your ass. And your justification for not looking at statistics – because the Nazis used them – that’s just plum stupid. That’s like saying you shouldn’t get educated because you might learn something about foreign cultures. Get another beer and go back to your trailer.

        • Springer

          “….thousands of kids…..”? Really.
          Again, where do you get your “facts”?
          “Real statistics”? Like the ones the media tell you? Yeah, right.
          “…get your head out of your ass….” You first!
          “…justification for not looking at statistics….”
          Just like an uneducated idiot antigun zealot. Take a person’s comments and twist them into something different to fit your own idiotic ideas.
          History? Obviously you’ve never studied it, or, you have everything handed to you so you don’t think you should waste your time with it.
          Let me educate you, if your pea brain can comprehend logic:
          There are “foreign cultures” that want to see us exterminated from the face of the earth. Think the police can get to your house in time if one of these members of a “foreign culture” breaks in and starts killing you and your family? Think again.
          I hope, nay, PRAY you or your family is never in the need of help from a conealed carry permitted person. They just might have read your idiotic posts here. :-)

        • Springer

          Ok, I know you can read, well…., at least I think you can, or do you have someone else read and reply for you?
          http://www.a-human-right.com/
          Don’t come back with your idiotic “statistics” until you’ve read that site.
          Oh, and answer the questions, cause I KNOW you’ll choose “A Liability” when your asked to choose.

        • Rodin

          Well Mr Springer – I looked at your “survey” and having designed these in the past for marketing studies, I must commend you on setting this up so impartially… LMFAO… Nothing more than incompetent self serving drivel with no basis in reality.

          You want reality .. read this
          http://www.vpc.org/studies/myth.htm

          A woman is 83 times more likely to be killed by an intimate acquaintance with a gun than to use one in self defence against one. Now if her intimate aquaintance did NOT or had much more limited access to a gun, like every other civilized country, then there would be a lot less dead women. Now I’m not saying that women don’t get killed in Canada, UK, or Europe but it’s a lot less frequently and especially with handguns. Takes a lot more effort to kill em with a hammer or your fists.

          And as for the idiot above who is “praying” for my family, pray instead that this country will lose it’s obsession with guns and my family will be a thousand times (ok actually only 4 times) safer. And get over your paranoia about “foreign cultures” – it’s not going to happen and to put yourselves in danger because of a fairy tale fantasy is just plain stupid.

    • http://donthaveone Mark

      No, it means we have to many irresponsible people with guns. These same idiots that leave a gun lay where a kid can get it, are liable to be leaving drugs and knifes and who knows what else lying around also. I dont own a gun, never have, and probably never will, but I dont begrudge someone that does. Just like anything else in life, there are proper procedures to be followed. If you get prescription drugs and dont follow the instructions and the procedures of us, many of them will kill you. If you drive your car, and dont follow the rules of the road and the proper procedures, it will kill you. When Japan invaded Pearl Harbor, it was asked later to the head of the Japanese military, why they didnt invade the mainland, you know what he said? He said “That would be suicide, as they have an armed population”. Now take away the right to bear arms, you and I both know that for one, the criminal would still have his guns, because most of them have them illegally anyways, and their job of robbing us would become so much easier. Now add to it, that the word gets out to our enemies, they would be flocking here with their weapons, and taking over neighborhoods and growing and growing while exterminating us slowly but surely. Its not that hard to see how this could happen, if we had a unarmed society. Those that are dangerous with guns, hey, if they are illegal, these same guys are still going to be dangerous with guns. The only difference is, is that the good guys that have guns wont exist, and this would lead to chaos. FACT

      • Springer

        Well stated Mark.

      • rodin

        I’m sorry Mark… you’re basing your entire argument on the supposition that having an armed population will deter violent crimes. The correlation is that a population that is unarmed will face a higher violent crime rate. You cannot show me any proof of this, as the opposite holds true in EVERY western democracy. Canada, the UK, Japan, South Korea, all of Western Europe, Australia ALL have lower violent crime rates and lower gun crime rates. Your supposition is NOT true. The FACT is that if you eliminate the opportunity for citizenry to purchase handguns, then slowly…. slowly, the number of guns in the hands of the cirminals will decrease through attrition and the US will start to have lower violent crime rates involving firearms in line with other countries. In Canada and the UK and Europe there are criminals with guns. However, despite your rants and fears, the actual firearm related crimes are lower than in the US.

        I know this seems counter-intuitive to simple minds, it holds true because of the overall lower amount of guns period. The US has a gun related homicide rate multiples of times higher than anyone else and it’s because you cling to this outdated notion that you’re going to “protect” yourself. Forget it. Either A) you’re not going to have time to get and draw your weapon if you’re ever involved in a drive by shooting or B) you’re going to get disarmed and you’re just making the situation that much worse. I love hearing all these Dirty Harry attitudes where you think you’re going to be able to hit back. Fuhgeddaboudit. It’s been the sole reason the US has such a high rate of gun homicides compared to everyone else, and I challenge you to prove me wrong…. but then again none of y’all believe in statistics or higher learning anyways so this entreaty is probably falling on deaf ears. You’ll simply say I’m a liberal or that I’ve been brainwashed by the intellectual elite or some other such nonsense. Facts can be verified…. look at the numbers and do some real comparisons. A good place to start is to compare the number of children dying because their stupid ass parents leave the guns stored unsafely – versus the ACTUAL amount of home invaders killed each year by “responsible” gun owners. And please don’t include in the latter Japanese foreign students being killed for the mistake of knocking on somebodys door and asking for directions. Sheesh. Anybody with a gun scares me, criminals and so-called responsible citizens.

        • SSG Prasuhn

          Anyone with a gun scares you, right? Does that include the government (FBI, CIA, DEA, Homeland Security, Army, Navy, Marines, Air Force, Forest Service, Bureau of Land Management) and COPS???

          How about retired and otherwise ‘Honorably’ discharged VETERANS of our military services — who, by the way, GAVE UP many years (especially those who ‘lasted’ long enough to retire) of their lives JUST to ‘PROTECT’ you and your RIGHTS to ‘come off the wall’ like you do against guns??

          I’m guessing you NEVER even SERVED your country with your ‘anti-gun’ attitude. That would be a good guess, because ALL of the VETERANS I know and have known (they’re dead now due to war, old-age, or complications from wounds inflicted DEFENDING your rights) ALL ‘believe’ in, of and for the ‘Right To Keep and Bear Arms’ — JUST to keep this country of ours (or any country asking for our help in doing so for ‘their’ country) FREE.

          ‘Nuff Said’,

          Oh!! Thank you for your ‘attitude’ that makes me feel like I did nothing more than WASTE 20-years of my life defending your ‘Right’ to spout off as you do here, I really appreciate that! NOT!!!!

          Bye!!

    • JeffH

      WE get it already…you hate guns. I won’t show you mine if you don’t try to take it away!

  • Springer

    Mr./Mrs. Rodin,
    I can say the same about your site. Biased out the wazoo!
    To answer some of your ‘counter-points’:

    “To put it in perspective, more people are struck by lightning each year than use handguns to kill in self-defense.”
    Hmmm…wonder why? Could it be that, upon seeing the woman is armed, more attackers run away instead of continuing the attack?

    “In 1998, for every time a woman used a handgun to kill in self-defense, 101 women were murdered with a handgun.”
    So your saying that one life is not important? It is to that one person!
    Besides, of the 101, if any of them were armed, bet they would have been one of the survivors.

    “….57 percent (497 of 872) were intimate acquaintances of the offender.12 Of these, more than half (260 of 497) were wives of the offenders.”
    Perfect example of a woman defending herself against an “offender”.
    Don’t you think a battered and abused woman deserves the right to protect herself?
    How about protecting her children from abuse?

    “Women who purchase handguns for self-protection are most likely planning to protect themselves and their families from strangers. Yet, women rarely use handguns to kill strangers in self-defense. ”
    Why should they kill a stranger/offender if they are fleeing at the sight of her firearm?
    Wouldn’t you consider that murder?
    Oh, that’s right, you don’t think a person who rapes and kills an unarmed woman a murderer either, do you? He get’s sent to a resort/prison and continues to breathe and eat and walk and talk and get phone calls and visits from family and friends, BUT, his UNARMED victim get’s a casket and a hole in the ground. Oh sure, she get’s vistitors too; bringing flowers and tears to put on her grave.

    “Takes a lot more effort to kill em with a hammer or your fists.”
    Are you that naive to think without guns that “offenders” will use hammers and their fists? NOW who has their head up their ass?
    I guess next you zealots will be demanding restrictions on the use of hammers, butcher knives, baseball bats, etc., etc.,…………

    “And as for the idiot above who is “praying” for my family”…
    Oh, I see. You don’t need prayers for your family. You can take care of them yourself without the help of God, OR the police.

    “…pray instead that this country will lose it’s obsession with guns and my family will be a thousand times (ok actually only 4 times) safer.”
    From what? ME?! I’m not the one you need to worry about.
    How about the illegals who slip into this country with THEIR firearms?
    How about the “foreign cultures” who infiltrate our country and bring THEIR firearms?

    “And get over your paranoia about “foreign cultures” – it’s not going to happen…”
    Uh, not going to happen?
    What about Korea? Tell it to the South.
    What about Kuwait? Tell them Iraq won’t.
    What about Afghanistan? Tell them Russia won’t.
    What about Germany? They did it too.
    And now it’s about to happen in Isreal.

    “…and to put yourselves in danger because of a fairy tale fantasy is just plain stupid.”
    Again, how is my being armed putting me in danger? Fairy tale fantasy? Again, tell it to the Jews, the South Koreans, the Polish, the French, etc., etc.

    You and your kind will never be able to convince me, and a million like me, that being armed is more dangerous to us than being unarmed.
    I’D RATHER BE JUDGED BY TWELVE, THAN BE CARRIED BY SIX!
    Period!

    • rodin

      I’m going to start calling you Dirty Harry since you seem to think that having a bigger gun is all that’s necessary to survive against someone having one on you. That’s freaking laughable.

      Start with the women, if a woman is being attacked by a husband with a gun she is not going to have time to get her own weapon and that’s assuming she has a separate weapon. “Oh wait honey, don’t point that gun at me, because that’s mine… hand it over so I can shoot you first.”

      Your funny statement belittling the comparison between lightning strikes and self defence killings is equally baffling. If your argument held any water, then the US would have a LOWER rate of assault on women overall compared to countries where the criminals KNEW the women weren’t carrying guns. Not true – compare against Canada, the UK and western Europe.

      I sincerely don’t understand why you stray from your arguments about citizenry having guns to the state of our penal system. There’s no correlation here nor have I expressed any opinion on its effectiveness. Why would you put any words in my mouth. Perhaps you’d like to tell me what toothpaste brand I like and why I’m mistaken in that as well.

      I’m sorry my hammer and fist argument went over your head. Women don’t die as often in countries where guns are not prevalent. That’s a FACT.

      I don’t need your prayers, what I need is a society that is not focussed on gun ownership so my family can be 3 to 4 times safer. I’m not saying I’m going to pull a Dirty Harry and take care of the mofos myself. What I am saying is that our society would be safer overall and the chances of them dying by guns would be reduced immensely.

      AS for your comments about illegal immigrants bringing guns in… that’s just sheer conjecture. The FACT is that the US is the single largest exporter of guns to the worldwide criminal element. Because Americans make it so easy to buy guns, Canadians have a HUGE problem keeping the guns out of their country. But who cares, maybe they should just allow the guns in and have their gun crime rates quadruple to ours. Then they’ll be real redblooded north americans.

      • Springer

        Defenseless people rounded up and exterminated in the 20th Century
        because of gun control: 56 million.
        It has now been 12 months since gun owners in Australia were forced by new
        law to surrender 640,381 personal firearms to be destroyed by their own
        Government, a program costing Australia taxpayers more than $500 million
        dollars. The first year results are now in:
        Australia-wide, homicides are up 3.2 percent.
        Australia-wide, assaults are up 8.6 percent.
        Australia-wide, armed robberies are up 44 percent (yes, 44 percent)!

        SWITZERLAND ISSUES EVERY HOUSEHOLD A FULLY-AUTOMATIC RIFLE.
        SWITZERLAND ‘S GOVERNMENT TRAINS EVERY ADULT THEY ISSUE A FULLY-AUTOMATIC RIFLE.
        SWITZERLAND HAS THE LOWEST GUN RELATED CRIME RATE OF ANY CIVILIZED COUNTRY IN THE WORLD.

        • Rodin

          You have your head so far up your ass you can’t see daylight. You’re scared and you use fear to justify everything… a dream for a life insurance salesman. BUT NO BRAIN.

          Starting in reverse – Switzerland has approximately a 36% gun ownership rate and a rate of death (homicide and suicide) from fireams at a rate of 6 per 100,000 each year. This is the second highest in the civilized world only eclipsed by the US with over 10 per 100,000.

          Secondly, crime rates in western countries are a function of economics and sociology not gun ownership. Guns enable crimes but do not increase or decrease the level. As for your Australian crime rates, you may be right that crime is up, there’s a freaking recession going on worldwide and they’re facing a lot of other problems. HOWEVER, their homicide rate is 1/4 that’s 25% of the US rate. At 1.5 homicides per 100,000 vs a US rate of between 5.5 and 6 per 100,000 your stated increase of 3.2% is completely insignificant. AMERICANS STILL HAVE ALMOST 4 TIMES THE MURDER RATE.

          Lastly, the only people I’m worried about rounding others up are the gun freaks and right wing militias. EVERY instance in this century for your 56Million, (and I have no way of corroborating that – nor do I care), has been at the behest of nationalistic right wing ethno-cultural-centrist fanatics. I’m much more worried about all the hating conservatives on this website than I am about a government which holds itself to open principles. My focus will be on maintaining the ideals which our forefathers fought for and not giving in to the closed minded bigots and fear mongers on this site. And lest you now go into a diatribe about guns being an ideal that they fought for, you’re sadly mistaken… the times were very different two hundred years ago, with barely a standing army, no real national cohesiveness, a myriad of privately funded militias…. guns in the hands of the populace were needed to protect the population from a tyranny by a small minority. Times have changed and our institutions are more powerful. I’m sure you’ll disagree and think that you need to protect yourself from Obama or something but you’re really just being paranoid.

  • Springer

    Your such a dumbs @ * t! How long do you think your idea of “attrition” will take?
    A year? Two? Do you have any idea how long a firearm’s useful life expectancy is?
    I have my great-great grandfather’s musket that will still bring down a deer at 100yds!
    So by your reasoning, in about 500 to 1000 years, there won’t be anymore guns around. Hmmmm…..does you alot of good when a criminal is breaking down your door because he knows you turned all your firearms in now don’t it?
    And quit spewing your Canada/UK/Europe crap unless you can post where you get your information. I”ll bet it’s from some anti-gun biased liberal media!
    If you don’t want to have guns around, why don’t YOU move to Canada/UK/Europe where you’ll feel safe?

    “Why would you put any words in my mouth. Perhaps you’d like to tell me what toothpaste brand I like and why I’m mistaken in that as well.”
    I could but you’ve obviously gotten on your knees in front of bill clinton so you’d have to remove that first.

    I’m done with this idiot. Anybody else want to try and reason with him?
    Wait, he’s a liberal dumbcrat, reason, logic, and Freedom isn’t possible for him to comprehend.

    • Rodin

      I never inferred that attrition would bring the criminals guns down to zero. In fact I went to great lengths to show that criminals in Canada, the UK and Europe also had guns…. however their homicide rates are still a small fraction of the US rate. Why do you think that is. Are they somehow different? No you idiot, they don’t have guns lying around waiting to be picked up at the slightest provocation.

      And attrition is NOT the result of guns slowly becoming inoperable, I used attrition to refer to the police seizures of weapons caches held by criminals. European and Canadian police have well publicized stings arrests and seizures of guns generally imported from the US by the criminals. IF the US is not exporting them, then slowly the seizures will get a very large proportion and not allowing or significantly restricting their sales, then it too will see a huge decrease in amount of firepower on the street. Simple economics will drive the price of illegal weapons through the roof and they will become “precious” commodities with all the concommitant results.

      And that was soooo cute about the toothpaste. Did you think that up all by yourself or did your mommy help you.

      And where do you possibly equate freedom with having guns…. it’s the antithesis of freedom. Sociologically and historically, societies have become more efficient as their general well being has increased and responsibility for protection has passed to specialized groups like police and soldiers. If everyone on the street carried an uzi, part of your brain is occupied with the fear that you have to protect yourself from the chance that one of them could kill you at any time. That’s not freedom.

      • Springer

        “And that was soooo cute about the toothpaste. Did you think that up all by yourself or did your mommy help you.”
        Nope, YOUR mommy demonstrated to me how you do it!

        “And where do you possibly equate freedom with having guns…. it’s the antithesis of freedom. If everyone on the street carried an uzi, part of your brain is occupied with the fear that you have to protect yourself from the chance that one of them could kill you at any time. That’s not freedom.”
        If everyone on the street carried an uzi, then THAT would be completely safe
        street to walk down! THAT would mean all the muggers, rapers, thugs, burglars,
        etc, etc, would be too afraid to even come into that community where all the law
        abiding citizens carried uzi’s in the street. Oh I can only wish for that to happen across
        America! But idiots like you can’t see that an armed society will drive out lawlessness
        and we could all live in peace.

        “Sociologically and historically, societies have become more efficient as their general well being has increased and responsibility for protection has passed to specialized groups like police and soldiers.”
        ARE YOU SAYING WHAT I THINK YOUR SAYING? THAT WE NEED THE GESTAPO AND KGB LIKE “SPECIALIZED GROUPS AND POLICE/SOLDIERS?
        Let me guess, your RELATED to Hitler, Stalin, Ho Chi Minh, Castro, & Chavez!
        Must be. No TRUE American in their right mind would EVER wished for “their general well being for protection to be passed to “specialized groups”………”
        This beautiful country of mine is going to hell in a handbasket due to idiotic ideals of people like you. It saddens me that you think this way.
        If this country is so terrible and over supplied with firearms, why don’t you move to a country where firearms are illegal? You spout off about all the world haveing a less gun crime rate than here, so why don’t you go there and leave the real Patriots here in America to defend our Constitution!

        • Springer

          I think this post said it best. This person should know what it’s like to have firearms taken from you:

          “My wife grew up in the Soviet Union. Three of her great-grandparents, unable to defend themselves because they were disarmed by the Soviet government, were murdered by Stalin. A couple of her father’s relatives simply “disappeared” – one was dragged away in the night by KGB thugs because he had no firearm to defend himself.”

          Is THAT the “specialized groups” you want protecting your “general well being”?

        • Rodin

          Are you comparing our police, army, air force, marines, national guard, border patrol…. etc to GESTAPO and KGB. You really are freaking paranoid. The only time they get close to these tactics is when nutbars like you get scared of foreign terrorists and want to attack anything that’s not white bread. Need I remind of post 9-11 when good caring Americans spilled out on the streets in gangs and beat, terrorized and killed other innocent Americans because they had Middle Eastern ancestry. I’m much more scared of freaks like you when you have guns or when you’re scared and begging the government to impose Patriot Acts. Anybody who calls themself a Patriot usually hasn’t got a clue what that means and usually isnt.

  • Springer

    “Attorney General Eric Holder called for a ban on so-called assault weapons. Holder said in a February news conference that such a ban would help cut down the flow of guns going across the border.
    But the types of weapons that would be banned are not the type commonly being used by gangs and drug cartels. In their battles with police the criminals are employing fragmentation grenades, fully automatic weapons and rocket-propelled grenades. After a recent battle in which five cartel gunmen were killed and several more wounded, police even recovered a 60-mm mortar—all weapons that are unavailable to average citizens in the U.S. under existing laws.
    Yet Holder believes that disarming Americans, as violent drug cartels battle along the border and kidnapping gangs sneak into America, is the right course of action.
    Never mind the Second Amendment, which guarantees that the right to keep and bear arms will not be infringed. Never mind the 10th Amendment, which restricts the U.S. Government from taking over powers not specifically enumerated by the Constitution.
    It’s becoming increasingly obvious that those in Government who have taken an oath to defend the Constitution are more interested in shredding it to remove any obstacles to their seizing more and more power.”

    • Rodin

      You want to buy grenades too!!! F!@# are you stupid.

      • Springer

        In their battles with police the criminals are employing fragmentation grenades, fully automatic weapons and rocket-propelled grenades. After a recent battle in which five cartel gunmen were killed and several more wounded, police even recovered a 60-mm mortarall weapons that are unavailable to average citizens in the U.S. under existing laws.
        HOW F * ^ # ING STUPID AND UNEDUCATED CAN YOU BE?
        CAN’T YOU EVEN READ A SIMPLE SENTENCE OR PARAGRAPH AND
        UNDERSTAND WHAT IT SAYS?
        It’s useless talking to airheaded idiots like you. You have neither the brain
        or the ability to comprehend simple logic or even the English language.

        • Rodin

          How else is anybody to read your statement. “all weapons unavailable ot average citizens in the US under existing laws” You either infer that they should be available or that criminals will always be able to get better weapons than the average citizen anyways.

          So what is your point – try MAKING IT instead of just stating empty rhetoric.

          Guns are worse than alcohol for killing brain cells.. It appears none of y’all have any left.

  • SpaceKozak

    “And how we burned in the camps later, thinking: What would things have been like if every Security operative, when he went out at night to make an arrest, had been uncertain whether he would return alive and had to say goodbye to his family? Or if, during periods of mass arrests, as for example in Leningrad, when they arrested a quarter of the entire city, people had not simply sat there in their lairs, paling in terror at every bang of the downstairs door and at every step on the staircase, but had understood they had nothing left to lose and had boldly set up in the downstairs hall an ambush of half a dozen people with axes, hammers, pokers, or whatever else was at hand. The Organs would very quickly have suffered a shortage of officers and transport and, notwithstanding all of Stalin’s thirst; the cursed machine would have ground to a halt!” - The Gulag Archipelago, Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

    To you gun grabbers on this site, I pose the following question: Which group of U.S. citizens or residents do you want to have exterminated?

    – In 1938, Nazi Germany established gun control. Between 1938 and 1945, the Gestapo rounded up 13 million defenseless Jews, Gypsies, homosexuals, mentally ill and impaired human beings, imprisoned them in concentration camps, and by a conscious process of attrition, destroyed them.

    – In 1911, the Turkish Ottoman Empire established gun control. Between 1914 and 1917, approximately 1.5 million Armenians, unable to defend themselves, were exterminated by the Turks.

    – After the establishment of the Soviet Union in 1922, the Communist government began to enact strict gun control between 1922 and 1929. From 1929 until Stalin’s death in 1953, over 60 million Soviet dissidents – unable to defend themselves – were rounded up and killed.

    My wife grew up in the Soviet Union. Three of her great-grandparents, unable to defend themselves because they were disarmed by the Soviet government, were murdered by Stalin. A couple of her father’s relatives simply “disappeared” – one was dragged away in the night by KGB thugs because he had no firearm to defend himself.

    – China enacted gun control laws in 1935. Between 1948 and 1952, 20 million Chinese dissidents and other state-branded “criminals,” unable to defend themselves, were murdered by the Communist regime.

    – Guatemala passed gun control laws in 1964, and as a result, 100,000 defenseless Mayan Indians were slaughtered between 1964 – 1981. In 1970, Uganda also established gun control measures, and from 1971 – 1979, 300,000 defenseless Christians met a similar fate.

    – Cambodia established gun control measures in 1956, and subsequently from 1957 – 1977 one million Cambodians were killed by the government.

    – Indonesia, supposedly with a Republic form of government like the U.S. has a similar record. Thanks to gun control laws, out of a population of just one million people in East Timor, 200,000 have been killed over the past twenty years until the recent bloodshed, and it is still unknown how many thousands more have been murdered. Being promised freedom, these brave people elected to vote in a referendum during which the United Nations guaranteed their safety and still they died unarmed and defenseless.

    – In the United States, the first gun control laws were enacted during the Civil War. Why? You guessed it – to prevent guns from falling into the hands of black slaves who might be inclined to attack their masters, thus keeping the enslaved populace in control.

    These are only a few examples from history, but I think the point is made; that is, whenever one group of people wishes to control another one, they disarm them – either forcefully, as the British wanted to do in 1775 but ended up sparking the American Revolution, or subtly, as governments tend to do by passing “sensible” gun control laws. They use all kinds of psycho-babble arguments, such as, “It’s for the children,” or, “guns cause violence,” etc.

    So again I ask, which group of U.S. citizens or residents do you want to have exterminated?

    • Rodin

      I’m sorry but everyone of your examples is completely moot. When a society has the kind of hate between groups and one is a small minority, there is no protection in having guns available to it. You may think “Oh yeah, if they come for me, there’s going to be a shootout…” Doesn’t happen. Human psychology won’t let it.

      During Cristallnacht, mobs of Germans were attacking the homes of Jews, a couple of pea-shooter guns does nothing against mob violence except inflame it further. In Toronto during the late 1930′s there were daily gang beatings between White supremacist (Protestant) gangs and Jews. While the Jews were being rounded up and placed on trains by the Nazis, there was no violence that they could fight with guns. While they were digging their own graves, they were being watched by only a small handful of armed guards who could have been easily overwhelmed by the prisoners. I ask you when the Jews could have used guns if they had them. By the time of the final solution it was too late. They were already rounded up.

      As for Armenia, same thing, the Turkish army itself rode in to the cities while the people did what people do…. they cowered and hoped it would end. Any that did fight, faced the same result – dead. What difference did having a gun make.

      You did not use the example of Sri Lanka – Thousand of Tamils killed in a week like Cristallnact where the Sinhalese majority mobs attacked the homes and soldiers and police helped the mobs. The Tamils started to fight back with their Tigers, same as the IRA – they got international money and guns to fight back and waged a 25 year civil war. Just this past month, the Sinhalese government finally wiped out the last of the Tigers. The IRA and the Protestants – finally after fighting for 30 years, accepted that peace would only come if they stopped. But IReland was different… there the catholics and protestants were much more equally represented in society.

      Cambodia- and it’s killing fields were at best a banana republic. The killing did not happen in the 50′s or 60′s but after 1975. Do you really want to compare the political and social institutions of the US against Cambodia and say that gun control had any effect on what happened.

      East TImor – same thing- it was the government and it’s soldiers that wanted to subjugate and prevent independance. Again no comparison with US.

      I am much more worried about the forces in America which want to segregate the population and close off the culture. The right wing haters that despise immigration, that want to hold African Americans down, that think homosexuality is an aberration and should be criminalized, and yes want to own guns. These people scare me.

      • Springer

        One more post to this moron:

        I don’t plan to argue with this guy; if Solzhenitsyn and the Constitution are not good enough, he’s a lost cause. As long as we have a 2nd Amendment – which, by the way, the Supreme Court upheld last year when they crushed DC’s unconstitutional gun ban – I’m good to go, and this guy can go to….well, being himself is a good enough punishment. It’s obvious he’s a pathetic, miserable, un-American Kool Aid drinker for the socialist left. He would have gladly welcomed British troops into his home in 1775 and would have told them where the Patriots were hiding. He’d likely be more than happy to see people like us rounded up and put in the camps. When the wolves are at HIS door, and when (God forbid it) the KGB/Gestapo is dragging HIM away, he will see we are right. But then, it will be too late – for all of us.

        We are living in dangerous times, brother. I fear there are those in positions of power and influence who, having disarmed the opposition, would not hesitate to implement Soviet/Nazi-style controls over every element of our existence. We can see evidence of it around us now.

        • Rodin

          Springer – You can’t even read. If you actually breath in what Solzhenitzyn is saying, you’ll see that he makes my point about the human condition. In EVERY similar situation throughout history, the vast majority of the population will cower and NOT fight back. Those that do usually die. I’m not socialist or left wing or kool-aid drinking for stating the obvious that you have to agree with. But I will try to maximize my own safety by moulding society to the safest possible set of laws defining human inter-relationships and rights. All my statistics are indispubable – Perhaps you consider a fair trade-off to have a homicide rate 4 times the rest of the western world in the hopes that you’ll be able to fight off the army when it comes to your door. Maybe that’s where you’re coming from…. but I’m not… I’d rather live with the lower probability of the army coming to my door and the very high probability of a decrease in the gun homicide rate by 75% to match the rest of the world. It’s a trade-off that I consider makes me safer.

          But then again, you’re probably get caught up in the next Waco or Oklahoma City. You like to think of your government as an enemy.

      • SpaceKozak

        I’m sorry but everyone of your examples is completely moot.

        Moot only to those who do not know history, nor how to avoid repeating it. Tell it to the 120,000 dead Jews buried at Babyn Yar in Kiev, Ukraine – Jews that were rounded up and slaughtered by the Nazis in October 1941 because they had no means to defend themselves. Tell it my inlaws. You are arrogant, uninformed and insensitive to say that their example is moot. You’ve never lived it, pal, and you think it can never happen here because it never has in the past. Wake up and smell the vodka, komrade. This is not just about gun rights! Government is getting its filthy fingers into every aspect of our lives. Now they’re starting to tell us what kind of car we should drive, what light bulb we can use, whether or not we can smoke in public, etc. They’re also taxing everything that moves and it’s only getting worse. We’re already living in a soft tyranny, and if they ever disarm us, you can bet your next paycheck that it will turn into a hard tyranny overnight. The Founding Fathers saw that the only check against that sort of tyranny is enshrining the right to keep and bear arms in the Constitution – which, by the way, the U.S. Supreme Court upheld last year in the DC gun ban case.

        The Constitution is on our side. Morality is on our side. History is on our side. Why don’t YOU get on our side? Otherwise, consider the following quote that I leave you with, from Samuel Adams, to those fainthearted individuals who could not stomach the fight for freedom that was coming in 1775.

        “If you love wealth more than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, depart from us in peace. We ask not your counsel nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains rest lightly upon you and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.”

        I rest my case, on the firm ground of the Constitution of the United States of America. Enjoy your illusions of peace and safety while you can. Goodbye.

        • Rodin

          SpaceKozak – My sincerest empathy for the losses to your family. However, nothing I’ve said is the slightest bit derogatory towards them or disrespectful. Your anger is unjustified. If ALL the jews in Germany, Poland and Ukraine had possession of guns in the 1930′s, it would not have made ANY difference. They would have still been slaughtered, perhaps even faster. Look at the examples of the Tamils in Sri Lanka, the Tutsis in Rwanda. Nothing can stop a society bent on evil, until they come to their senses.

          As for the rest of your diatribe, you obviously have a deep seated mistrust of government and that is fine. I instead look at government as a tool of my own voice with the hundreds of millions of other citizen voices as well. I’d rather we reach consensus about how we all live together. Sometimes it’s complicated. It’s far too complicated to have the kind of laissez-faire independant libertarian attitude you seem to espouse, That can’t work now and not sure it ever could or did. What we need to protect ourselves from most is the same thing we’ve always had to protect ourselves against and that is FEAR. Our FEAR has driven us to do the stupidest things most harmful to freedom. The PATRIOT ACT is a great example of our wholesale passage of rights over to a dictatorial government. Thank god its almost over.

          The constitution is a living document constantly being updated by new thought as it relates to current circumstances… I wouldn’t have it any other way.. Otherwise we get a bunch of Taliban that think the Koran circa 7th century is the way to live life today. Two hundred years ago, there were no such things as rocket launchers and automatic weapons and yet we think we have a right to carry them on the street, because of an ancient interpretation. I don’t think so.

          I will never bow down to a dictatorship but yours and my definition of dictatorships are two different things – you seem to like a cheney-esque system where you get all the guns you want but anybody not pure-white is put into detention centers with no due process. Oh sorry… that happened to whites too. My vision of freedom is a little more encompassing where we actually care for our fellow human being and treat each other with the same respect we need for ourselves.

          Morality – I don’t think you have any. Not if you’re arguing a trade-off where our citizens are being KILLED at a rate 4 times higher than the average because you like your guns and you’re scared. SCREW your fear… its killing the rest of us.

  • Springer

    “The right wing haters that despise immigration, that want to hold African Americans down, that think homosexuality is an aberration and should be criminalized, and yes want to own guns. These people scare me.”
    Hold African Americans down? Some of the most influential people in this country are African American. Hello? PRESIDENT Obama.
    Homosexuality an aberration and criminal? Yes, it is. Read the Bible.
    Want to own guns? Not want, a RIGHT to own guns.

    • Rodin

      I don’t see you and all the rest of the Klan boys on this site very happy about Obama, and by your very own words you’d rather use an minority interpretation of a minority religion as your metric for how to relate to other human beings. You’d like to be able to HURT other humans… You scare me. You’re not a peaceful man and you want to have a gun… There’s craziness there.

      • Springer

        Klan boys? You just proved something to me. YOUR RACIST! No wonder your crying. hahahahahahahaha!! ROTFLMAO!!!!

        • rodin

          Good… At least you’re not shooting anyone. Makes me feel a whole lot safer with you on the floor. Stay there OK. No more cross burnings or gay-draggings behind your pickup truck.

          • JeffH

            Well…now you bring racism to the forum…not nice

      • George

        Oh come on Rodin, we are not Klan boys here.
        I voted for Obama. I just didn’t want THIS kind of change…It was a mistake. And I apologize to America….

        The dislike for Obama has nothing to do with his color. It has to do with his federal takeovers of our largest industries. It has to do with his printing trillions of unbacked fiat currency that will directly lead to the destruction of the US dollar.
        Bush took over AIG, so I voted for change…..I didn’t like the Bush policy. What we have now is George Bush x10. We just went from bad to worse.

        My wife has some gay friends. Their ok. I have known them for 20 years, good guys. I don’t want to drag any homos from my truck…LOL!!! I don’t even own a truck! LOL! I don’t want to see any American being denied his constitutional rights, whether he’s black or gay or whatever, Thats just not American. If one class of Americans can be denied their rights, then that threatens us all.

        Come on dude…. We are all in the same boat.

        • rodin

          Maybe I overgeneralized…. a little. With a 35%-40% gun ownership rate in the US, there’s bound to be a lot of democratic, liberal minded people that also own them. However, I will digress for a quick moment to address your issues with government assistance of financial industries. I do have a little background here. :) Normally, I’m a middle of the road economist, stuck somewhere between a strong monetarist and a neo-Keynesian. All economists have models they like to prove things with and they all work in limited circumstances. The real hard part is figuring out what model can be applied most effectively to any current situation. The financial crisis we found ourselves embroiled in starting in 2007 (yeah it was that long ago that the securitization markets started seizing up) was not just a simple change in the variables of a long term model. What it turned into was a full blown repudiation of trust in the markets completely. A financial implosion. It was the equivalent of everyone closing out their bank accounts and sticking the cash into their mattresses. For an economy that works on liquidity and the flow of capital at a cost, it was a devastating and killing blow. If left unchecked, and it was initially by Bush and his ideological policy wonks, it had the capacity to completely tear down the worldwide banking system, cause most democratic countries to go bankrupt, and shrink the world manufacturing economy to worse than depression levels. The initial problem was the infancy of structured derivatives and their markets. The banking world has gotten infinitely complex with the use of supercomputers to securitize and compartmentalize risk, however the markets and the regulatory agencies did not keep up. I hate to place blame on one factor as there were several other pieces to the puzzle, but the single largest issue to me was the psychological impact on investors. With AIG, Bush really had no choice, the costs of not bailing it out were a couple of orders of magnitude greater than bailing it out. Actually, I’ll digress even further and say the fed should have stepped in and backstopped Lehman before it cratered. Lehman led to AIG. Lehman held hundreds of billions of dollars of structured assets which were firesaled far below their economic value. A conservative economist will tell you that in a firesale the economic value IS the price, and that may be true in micro-economics…. it doesn’t hold when the fire is this large and impacts on so many other industries and countries. Needless to say, I am glad to see we are now coming out the other side of this financial crisis. There were some mistakes made, but in general we handled it pretty well, both BUSH after his initial intransigence and OBAMA. You talk of a fiat currency, and this is a popular point amoung non-economists. The fact is you will not find one reputable economist that would suggest we go back to a gold standard. It’s an illusion. As for the current deficit levels, most of the increase is not new spending, but a decline in revenues brought about by the recession. That will change. I hate to sound like Dorothy, but the sun will shine tomorrow. We have one of the most flexible economies in the world and all the tools to foster change. Where I’m particularly happy about with the change from Bush to OBama is the end of mercantile economics. Under Bush, government spending increased dramatically most of which went to large private corporations while the tax base was eroded. He was handed a sunshine economy on a silver platter and squandered it all within the first four years. All I can say is keep the faith and hold true to core absolute beliefs in freedoms.

        • George

          Rodin, your grasp of economics for the most part is excellent. I disagree that we are coming out of the recession. Thats an illusion brought about by the dumping of trillions of dollars in wealth that was created out of thin air. You cannot create wealth out of thin air. You can however print as much money as you want. But there are dire consequences to doing so. They will tank the dollar at the rate they are going. Permanently. You speak of a confidence crisis, just wait till the dollar completely falls apart. Peter Schiff is negative on fiat.
          Its not really current deficit levels, {well maybe this year!} that bother me its the grand total national debt that is totally out of control. I no longer believe it can be paid off. There is too much debt in the system now. There is a point of no return, and we have passed it. Those who still have faith in our financial system, seem to point to the past. But what was once true is true no more. This is a new era, and we have never had debt like this before. We have gutted our manufacturing base with insane trade policies. Ross Perot was right, there is a giant sucking sound of US jobs going to overseas labor markets. We will default on our debt, and when we do…… Guess what?
          Still though, you have an impressive grasp of economics. We just disagre on the interpertation of what is spells.

          Take care.

          George

        • George

          Rodin, I hear what you are saying about AIG and I do agree. Actually GWB lost my support and respect in ’03. I did agree that the economy would be that much worse off if AIG failed than if we bailed. But Bush was asleep at the switch for years as things deteriorated. However, I used the opportunity to buy a boatload of AIG shares too. Still sweatin’ it….
          And I hung in there with Pres Obama. I reasoned that the US economy would be that much worse off, if the auto makers failed. I didn’t see what choice Obama had but to bail them out. At the time…
          But something else is happening here. Banks that don’t need bailout money are being strong armed into accepting it. Obama is appointing Czars to over see everything from what you are allowed to earn as a salary if your company took bailout cash, to just about every aspect of how these companies run. I understand the need for oversight, we don’t want the bailout money squandered. But Czars?? In America? Czars are a Russian position. I know the Reps created Czar positions long ago…but still. Obama is dictating the advertising budgets, fired GM’s CEO…..this is insanity. When Hugo Chavez calls President Obama, “Comrad Obama,” and Fidel Castro says that Cuba is now to the RIGHT of the US, you can be sure America has finally lost it….
          This is a socialist takeover, however cloaked they try to make it. No crisis squandered.
          Undoubtedly some will take issue with this, but although I realize the roots of this financial disaster stretch far and wide, I think the single biggest factor was the housing bust. The Federal Housing Enterprises Financial Safety and Soundness Act of 1992, established HUD-imposed housing goals for financing of affordable housing and housing in central cities and other rural and underserved areas. The goal was to increase home-ownership among minorities and the poor in rural and urban areas. In other words it lowered the lending bar by reducing lending standards, until every Tom, Dick, and Harry could now get “Affordable Housing.” People who preveiously would never qualify for a mortgage because of the risk, were now driving the market. GWB was a big supporter of this and called for 5 million new minority home sales. And they drove the market to insane pricing levels, defeating the purpose of the financial act in the long run anyway. Then all these people were given ARMs, lol! Then the tax reassessments at the higher market values….lol! Affordable my ass…
          Both Democratic and Republican administrations let this time bomb fester.

          Government created problems, and now,… government sponsored solutions. Surprise surprise.
          I say stop with all the stupid mandates and manipulations. THEN let the market correct itself. And in the future, no bailouts for stupidity. If they actually had more to lose, maybe they’d be more careful.

          Anyway, when it comes to fiat, and gold backed currency, fiat is the illusion. There is nothing behind fiat but promises made by known liars, {Government}.
          Countrys that are serious about stability, such as Switzerland, back their currency with gold. China just bought 1,000 tons of gold, because THEIR top economists are terribly worried about the US dollar.
          As fiat devalues, it robs you of your purchasing power by way of inflation. Inflation can rob every bank, household and pocket in America, leaving you holding worthless paper.

          If I could print and spend my own money, I too would rather have fiat.

          But until then, I prefer gold.

  • Springer

    “And where do you possibly equate freedom with having guns…. it’s the antithesis of freedom. Sociologically and historically, societies have become more efficient as their general well being has increased and responsibility for protection has passed to specialized groups like police and soldiers. If everyone on the street carried an uzi, part of your brain is occupied with the fear that you have to protect yourself from the chance that one of them could kill you at any time. That’s not freedom.”

    Second Circuit ruling ran counter to a Ninth Circuit decision last month
    in Nordyke v. King, which upheld the Second Amendment as a deeply held
    right embodied in the Constitution that transcends state law
    .
    “We therefore conclude that the right to keep and bear arms is “deeply
    rooted in this Nation’s history and tradition,” the Ninth Circuit ruling
    said. “Colonial revolutionaries, the Founders, and a host of
    commentators and lawmakers living during the first one hundred years of
    the Republic all insisted on the fundamental nature of the right. It has
    long been regarded as the ‘true palladium of liberty.’
    Colonists relied
    on it to assert and to win their independence, and the victorious Union
    sought to prevent a recalcitrant South from abridging it less than a
    century later. The crucial role this deeply rooted right has played in
    our birth and history compels us to recognize that it is indeed
    fundamental, that it is necessary to the Anglo-American conception of
    ordered liberty that we have inherited.
    We are therefore persuaded that
    the Due Process Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment incorporates the
    Second Amendment and applies it against the states and local
    governments.”

    • Springer

      To understand the true meaning of the Second Amendment, it is important to understand the men who wrote and ratified it, and the issues they faced in creating the Constitution. During the debate over the ratification of the Constitution, there was significant concern that a strong federal government would trample on the individual rights of citizens–as had happened under British rule. To protect the basic rights of Americans–rights which each person possesses and that are guaranteed, but not granted, by any government–the framers added the first ten amendments to the Constitution as a package. Those amendments have come to be known as the Bill of Rights. They represent the fundamental freedoms that are at the heart of our society, including freedom of speech, freedom of religion and the right of the people to keep and bear arms.

      • Springer

        The only reason there is a controversy about the Second Amendment is that on this subject many highly vocal and influential 21st Century Americans reject what seemed elementary common sense–and basic principle–to our Founding Fathers. The words of the founders make clear they believed the individual right to own firearms was very important:

        Thomas Jefferson said, “No free man shall be debarred the use of arms.”

        Patrick Henry said, “The great object is, that every man be armed.”

        Richard Henry Lee wrote that, “to preserve liberty it is essential that the whole body of people always possess arms.”

        Thomas Paine noted, “[A]rms . . . discourage and keep the invader and the plunderer in awe, and preserve order in the world as well as property.”

        Samuel Adams warned that: “The said Constitution be never construed to authorize Congress to infringe the just liberty of the press, or the rights of conscience; or to prevent the people of the United States, who are peaceable citizens, from keeping their own arms.”

        • Rodin

          Sorry dude…. times change…. In Mohammed’s time, there were a lot of good reasons for coming down with half the things he said in the Koran…. don’t apply any more. In Moses time there was a very good reason for not eating shellfish… doesn’t apply any more. There used to be good reasons for things like having separate entrances to bars for men and women…. again, times change. I’m sure you can come up with a thousand stupid things that we historically called important, but aren’t anymore.. Leper colonies, Spittoons, Smoking rooms…. and handguns.

        • George

          Yeah, I don’t really buy into the “living Constitution” nonsense. Thats a slippery slope.

          If shellfish were high in metals in Moses time, you can be sure these bottom feeders are still high in metals now. It does apply.

          I think the thing is Rodin, you are perfectly FREE NOT to buy a gun if you choose not to have one. Nobody will force you to buy one. You have a choice.
          Outlawing guns will remove any choice.

          Those who oppose guns always seem to equate guns with murder. Its just a tool. Its the guy holding the gun that I would be more concerned about.
          Again, I live in a rural area, I got coyotes coming up to my fricking front door. The wife called the cat last week at dusk. But the cat that came running was twice the size of our 17 pounder. Bobcat. I have been within 15 feet of one. And that bastard gave me a look…. He started shuffling his back feet. He was getting ready to rock and roll. I don’t know, call me crazy, but I would like to know I can protect the wife. Bears, coyotes, foxes, bobcats, and lynx, have all come through our property. I am glad I am armed, because it gets so black out here at night when there is no moon, you cannot see your hand in front of your face. And you often hear something creeping through the bushes when walking from the car all the way to the front door at night.

          Think on those terms.
          I understand you want to be safe.
          Me too. Gun ownership is not an outdated concept.

          Later dude.

  • Springer

    Well, no point in arguing with a traiter, sob, idiot pig like Rodin. Anti-American, unpatriotic, wants the government to hand feed them everything while honest tax paying REAL Americans work hard and pay taxes so this a$$hole can sit on his lazy, fat, ignorant a$$.
    I’m bored with your airheaded remarks.
    You stay the way you are and I’ll keep defending your right to be so, but if you ever come near me in a threatening way, I’ll drop you like a bad habit on Sunday.

  • Springer

    “How else is anybody to read your statement. “all weapons unavailable ot average citizens in the US under existing laws” You either infer that they should be available or that criminals will always be able to get better weapons than the average citizen anyways.:

    So what is your point – try MAKING IT instead of just stating empty rhetoric.
    Criminals will ALWAYS get weapons, even those that are illegal.
    Inforce the laws on the books now. No new ones need be implemented.

    Guns are worse than alcohol for killing brain cells.. It appears none of y’all have any left.
    I think you need a little lead in your brain cells so you can’t reproduce and poison our society even more.

    • rodin

      So your glorious freedom of speech is only good if one agrees with you. You’re an idiot and worse you’re an idiot with a gun.

      • SSG Prasuhn

        So it’s better to ‘side’ with you? Your words ‘reflect’ the same idology…that ‘Freedom of Speech’ is ONLY good if one agress with YOU.

        My, aren’t you the ‘smart’ one! NOT!!!

        If you don’t like guns. By all means, don’t own one. Those of us who do (like and appreciate the FACT that they can and DO protect one’s self, family and neighbor when the NEED arises) DO NOT deny you that ‘right of choice’. Underlying the ‘Right to Keep and Bear Arms’ is the ‘Right to NOT Keep and Bear Arms’ for those so chosing.

        If I choose to sleep on the ground and you chose to sleep on an ‘Air-Number’ bed, so be it. That’s ‘your’ choice and ‘my’ choice. The bottom line is we ‘both’ get a good night’s sleep in our ‘own’ way. Pretty simple don’t you think?

        You (and others of your ilk) live ‘your’ life and I (and others like me) will live ‘ours’. Just DON’T ‘force’ your ideals on me (us) as the ‘Anti-Gun Cult’ tends to want to do to the ‘Sons of Freedom’ (TRUE Patriots). You don’t see us ‘forcing’ our ‘Right to Keep and Bear Arms’ on you, do you? We aren’t saying ‘everyone’ MUST own a gun, we’re saying let US (who chose to) to have that ‘RIGHT’ (NOT a privilege as many seem to believe it is).

        Should it come down to it and the time comes when our country ‘is’ invaded, those with guns will be the ‘last stand’ between the freedoms we (somewhat) enjoy to day to NOT having any at all — which is EXACTLY what will happen if there are NO ‘privately’ owned guns with which to defend ourselves (and that includes ‘our’ defending ‘you and yours’).

        ‘Nuff Said’,

        Bye!

        • JeffH

          and…my guns are for my love of hunting and the shooting sport. I love them, don’t sleep with them, respect them and others that are around them and wouldn’t hesitate to use one in a clear case of self defense for myself, my family, my neighbor or my country. That is my right and I will continue to fight for my right (everyones right) to my death.

  • Springer

    Are you comparing our police, army, air force, marines, national guard, border patrol…. etc to GESTAPO and KGB.
    The members of our Armed Forces, of which I am a Veteran, AND Patriot, are bound by their oath to defend the constitution of the United States agains ALL enemys, both foreign AND domestic. So, no, they are not the ones that will come for you.

    Anybody who calls themself a Patriot usually hasn’t got a clue what that means and usually isnt.
    Ok you muslim terrorist, why don’t you tell all the armed forces that they aren’t patriots?
    Why don’t you tell the Vietnam Vets they aren’t patriots.
    Why don’t you tell the Heros buried in Arlington they aren’t patriots.
    Why don’t you go F * ^ k YOURSELF!
    GO BACK TO WHAT EVER MUSLIM LOVING COUNTRY YOU CAME FROM.
    That’s the beauty of THIS country; if you don’t like it, your FREE TO LEAVE!

    • rodin

      Hey… you’re the one saying all that shit… not me. I’m firmly in the camp of letting them do their job as society’s protectors. You’re the one giving every example in the book of a society’s government and it’s army and its police turning on one of its classes. I’m saying that I TRUST the government and the police and the armed forces to uphold our society and its laws

      You da bitch screaming about 56 million. I saying fuhgeddabout it. Not gonna happen here unless you and your friends all get together.

      • SSG Prasuhn

        And you don’t think that [the police and military ‘turning’ on ‘one’ of it’s classes) could (can) happen in America??

        Whatever it is your smoking, main-lining, bonging or otherwise ingesting, has really got you all screwed up!

        It’s not a matter of ‘if’ it will (can) happen but WHEN!! It’s happened before (in other countries down through history) and there’s NOTHING ‘in writing’ (if that even counts anymore) ‘guaranteeing’ that it won’t happen here, in America.

        I don’t know about you, but I want to be able to defend myself whenever THAT time comes (Hopefully, I’ll be dead by that time and won’t have to worry about it, but until then — ‘…I WILL ‘Protect and Defend’ the Constitution of The United States against ALL enemies foreign or domestic”…. And lately, it seems there are more ‘domestic’ enemies of the United States than there are foreign — ALL of them in ‘Congress’ and the ‘House’, from the President on down to city level.

        END OF SUBJECT!!!

        • rodin

          Is there a possibility that it could happen. YES, I’ll be the first to admit that a right wing dictatorship could upend all of our constitutional rights and set itself up with unlimited power. Almost happened under Bush/Cheney. However, two questions you must ask yourself. First what is the probability it will happen and second, assuming the probability does in fact happen, then what are you going to do about it if you have access to little old pea shooters. The army and national guard have access to extremely sophisticated weaponry and a host of ways to defuse any risk you might pose to a right wing government dictatorship. Since you would have NO chance to protect yourself, and returning to the probabilities above, you are better off not having guns in the first place.

          And as for your paranoia about the current government think of it as dodging the bullet from what might have happened with another four years of Cheney. Your rights and freedoms and the probability you will be able to hold on to them just skyrocketed.

    • rodin

      Oh I forgot, your friends did all get together and we had Oklahoma City and Waco and that Aryan Brotherhood thing in Montana…

      I’m still not sure how anybody can feel safe knowing that you have a gun.

      • JeffH

        Oklahoma City was a nut job, Waco happened because our government felt compelled to attack Koresch and the women and children rather than save lives through lengthy negotiations or just wait it out. What happened at Ruby Ridge? I suppose all of the BATFE agents were in some training exercise when they started fired the first shot killing dogs, women and children without provocation.
        I’m not too sure I can trust the government to make a lot of rational decisions.

  • Springer

    ” I’m firmly in the camp of letting them do their job as society’s protectors.”
    While they do an excellent job of protecting our freedoms, they cannot, and legally will not, be there to protect you from any one individual trying to do you harm.
    Police are reactionary forces. They get there AFTER the fact.
    A standing military force is there to deter full invasion of our country. Not to come to your aid when a burglar is breaking down your door.

    “Oh I forgot, your friends did all get together and we had Oklahoma City and Waco and that Aryan Brotherhood thing in Montana… ”
    Waco was your government’s idea. Janet sent those agents in and started all that mahem.
    Oklahoma was one mentally challenged person, not a group getting together.
    Aryan Brotherhood should have been dealt with a long time ago. There is no place in our society for hate groups such as those. I condemn the kkk and aryan nation. We all bleed the same color blood. I don’t care if your black, brown, red, white, green or poka dotted, if you treat me, my country and my flag with respect, respect will be returned in kind.
    I’m all for the entire world getting along. But, it’s never going to happen here on earth.
    Too many crazy people in this world that would love nothing better than to see all Americans wiped out. They are jealous of our freedoms and want us gone. The only way to keep our country free is to keep the freedoms entrusted upon us by the founding fathers. To include, freedom of speech, freedom of assembly, and, yes, freedom to keep and bear arms.
    I feel I must apologize for some of my earlier comments. You see, I am very passionate about this country and her freedoms. That is one reason I joined the military, to do my small part in protecting our way of life. When I see one of our rights being attacked, well, I go on the offensive.
    You can believe anything you want, and I’ll continue to fight for your right to do so.
    Just remember, once we lose one right, the others will soon follow.
    I believe it was Thomas Jefferson who said, “Those who beat their weapons into plows, will serve those who did not.”

    • rodin

      Mr Springer
      I commend you on your motives. I disagree with your logic. Yes, Thomas Jefferson did say that a couple of hundred years ago in a world that was a little bit different than we live in now. Back then, democracy as a philosophy was still very new. The world was slowly moving beyond the concepts of rule by tyranny and divine right. There were few, if any ways that society could fight back to protect itself against it’s tyrants. Couple that with the geographic nature of the colonies where there were often vast tracts between cities and villages and life was more rural. People needed to be able to protect themselves. I would now counter that the situation has evolved and the very ownership of guns by urban dwellers is now more dangerous than not owning them.

      First let’s look at your argument that the right to keep and bear arms will protect us from a future tyrannical takeover. Two hundred years ago that might have made sense. Another king might have raised an army and equipped them with single shot rifles and sent them over to America where the good rural inhabitants would have been able to gather their collective single shot rifles and fight against them. Technology changes though… now we not only have assault rifles and machine guns but we have really far out space tech weaponry that can literally evaporate entire cities. What good are your rifles against these weapons owned by our government. There is no realistic way for a citizenry today to fight with ARMS, against a tyrannical government that seeks total control of it’s population. Think George W Bush and his patriot act. There was little that anybody was going to do to fight the soldiers and agents of this ungodly piece of tyranny where most of our basic freedoms were stripped away. The only way to fight it was through the legislative branches of our government. Similarly, no Chinese was going to raise arms after Tienanmen square. Instead, the Chinese people continued on their long evolution of two steps forward and one step back…. and it will continue. However, maybe you accept this conclusion and think that the average citizen should also be able to own grenades, plastic explosives, satellite laser systems, mini nuclear bombs or whatever technology the government or potential enemy has. Maybe that’s where you want your argument to lead to. Just guns for protection against a tyrannical government – no way – the argument no longer applies.

      The second part of an argument for gun ownership is that it allows the holder to protect themselves from the criminals. This argument holds no water. The last fifty years of western history show that those societies which regulate gun ownership have much lower levels of deaths due to firearms than the US. And this is despite the fact that criminals in Canada, the UK, Europe and Japan all have access to guns. Let me restate this – IF the criminals have guns and the good people dont, there are less deaths due to fireams, by a factor of around 4 times. It’s not intuitive but it is true. Your neighbor, your kids, me and my kids are all safer if you and your friends don’t own guns. That is undisputable by the proof of every other country.

      So since your guns don’t protect you against criminals and won’t protect you from the next Dick Cheney government, but will make you and your children four times more likely to die from another gunshot….. then seriously, why would you still want to be able to own them?

  • Springer

    “….. then seriously, why would you still want to be able to own them?”

    This is why:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M1u0Byq5Qis

    And if the link won’t work, go to youtube and search for Suzanna Gratia Hupp.

    As far as you, your family and your neighbors are concerned, as long as none of you are threatening me, my family or my property, then you have nothing to fear from me or my guns. My guns are not gonna jump up and shoot you on their own. Nobody’s guns can do that. It takes someone to pull the trigger for them to operate. Kinda like a chain saw, cordless screwgun, circular saw or any other tool.
    On the other hand, if you, your family or any of your neighbors threaten me, you will be dealt with. Period.

    You are not gonna change my stand and I can’t change yours so this debate is over.
    God help us all if you and your kind get your way. I hope you and your kind enjoy living in a communist country.

    No need to reply. You’ll just repeat your same old babble and I’m not going to return here anyway. Just watch your back for criminals and good luck talking them out of doing you, your family or your neighbors any harm.

    • rodin

      You live in a dream world if you think I have nothing to fear from you and your family. You and your family and everyone who thinks like you are the ones driving the homicide rate by an additional 25,000 americans every year over what it would be if America had normal gun control along the lines of Europe or Canada. And if you want to bring in strict gun control like Japan or South Korea then tack on another 12,000 Americans we can save from your family and friends. Don’t tell me I have nothing to fear… you guys are the ones doing the killing. Accidents, road rages, kids taking guns to show and tell. And lest your wondering where I get my stats from the US has approximately 12 persons per hundred thousand dying each year from guns. Taking an average of 4 persons per hundred for Europe and Canada, that means that 8 people per hundred thousand die because of our laws. We’ve got about three hundred million potential victims in this country. You do the math. South Korean and Japanese deaths as statistics are incredibly negligible. So what now you think they have less criminals? Or that the criminals they do have don’t carry guns… think again.

      As for watching my back, it’s not the criminals I have to worry about. It’s you and yours.

    • JeffH

      Thanks, a real and very true example!

  • SSG Prasuhn

    “rodin Reply:

    June 21st, 2009 at 7:27 pm

    Is there a possibility that it could happen. YES, I’ll be the first to admit that a right wing dictatorship could upend all of our constitutional rights and set itself up with unlimited power. Almost happened under Bush/Cheney. However, two questions you must ask yourself. First what is the probability it will happen and second, assuming the probability does in fact happen, then what are you going to do about it if you have access to little old pea shooters. The army and national guard have access to extremely sophisticated weaponry and a host of ways to defuse any risk you might pose to a right wing government dictatorship. Since you would have NO chance to protect yourself, and returning to the probabilities above, you are better off not having guns in the first place.

    And as for your paranoia about the current government think of it as dodging the bullet from what might have happened with another four years of Cheney. Your rights and freedoms and the probability you will be able to hold on to them just skyrocketed.”

    “I’ll be the first to admit that a right wing dictatorship could upend all of our constitutional rights and set itself up with unlimited power.”,,,,,

    So, ONLY the ‘Right-Wingers’ are capable of such and outcome? Why not the ‘Lefties’? What makes you so sure the Obamakins won’t try (aren’t just setting up such a ‘take over’)?? GET REAL!! Party affiliation doesn’t matter (PERIOD). All it takes is for the ‘majority’ of one party or the other to make such an event a reality.

    Answer to yours about the ‘probability’…. 1) Probability is VERY good unless you have a majority of ‘The People’ watchdogging our (so-called) elected officials to make sure they don’t try to pull something like this. If everyone just lays back and figures, “Hey, I’ll let the government thake care of that. It’s not my job” — To that I say BULLSHIT!! IT’s EVERYONE’s JOB to ‘watch over’ the government. Remember…THEY work for US, NOT we them! 2) Should they take over — and the Army and National Guard follows along, me and my ‘pea shooters’ and a WHOLE BUNCH of others with ‘pea shooters’ CAN make a difference. Apparently you’ve never served in the military (or if you did you didn’t make it through BASIC). You forget, there are millions of veterans who still know how to fight and to ‘Protect and Defend’ our Constitution and way of life. We, with our ‘pea shooters’ can hit most any Army or National Guard unit, overcome them and take what weapons they have to use against them in later engagements. Their supply trains can be ambushed and taken. Their supply points can fall victim as well. Then, we would have the same weaponry as they have. Then too, there’s the likely hood that ‘some of them’ may ‘turn’ and go with the citizenry and bring their weapons along with them and or allow the ‘protectors’ to ‘come and get’ what ever they can haul away. — Ever stop to think about that? NO! (See above — You probably never been military or never made it out of BASIC).

    But then, you keep saying we’d have no chance against a ‘right-wing’ government dictatorship. If that be the case, then our chances against a ‘left-wing’ dictatorship should be a PIECE OF CAKE!

    Last point — Under current governmnet….Sorry, you’re WRONG again!!! Our rights and freedoms and the probability of holding on to them have greatly plummeted. The next sound you hear after the knocking at the door (when you think it’s the census taker) may well be BANG!!

    Put that in your bong and choke on it BoneHead!!!

    • Springer

      FINALLY!! Someone with a brain in their cranium!!
      Amen SSG! I’m one of those “pea shooters” too.
      There IS strength in numbers!
      This PFC will be right there beside you!

  • Springer

    “Rodent”, you’re basing your entire argument on the supposition that having an armed population increases death rates with firearms. South Korean and Japanese deaths as statistics are incredibly negligible due to the fact that they are unarmed and only police have firearms. How many are hacked to pieces with knives, machetes, or swords?
    Accidents, road rages, kids taking guns to show and tell are all examples of anti-gunners propaganda to scare people into thinking ALL firearms are bad.
    IF the criminals have guns and the good people dont, there are less deaths due to fireams, by a factor of around 4 times because there wouldn’t be homeowners killing a criminal breaking into their house, and the husband, having been tied up at gunpoint by the criminal, having to watch his wife being raped with a gun pointed at her head the whole time.

    “You and your family and everyone who thinks like you are the ones driving the homicide rate by an additional 25,000 americans every year over what it would be if America had normal gun control along the lines of Europe or Canada.”
    Then move to Europe or Canada; nobody’s stopping you.

    “And if you want to bring in strict gun control like Japan or South Korea then tack on another 12,000 Americans we can save from your family and friends. Don’t tell me I have nothing to fear… you guys are the ones doing the killing.”
    So me, my family and others like us are the CRIMINALS?
    WOW! Never thought someone who wants to protect their family, their property that they’ve worked so hard to achieve, and their way of life a CRIMINAL.
    So what do you call the person who broke into a home, tied up at gunpoint the husband and forced him to watch as he raped his wife in front of him, all the while pointing a gun at her head? Is that the category your putting ME and all the other legal, lawabiding gun owners in?
    How about letting me have your home address.
    Since I KNOW YOU are not armed, my guess is that a person could stake out your home, learn your habits, and enter your home while your asleep, take what they wanted, then go to your bedroom and tie you up and do whatever they felt like doing to you. Since you are not armed, what are you going to do while looking down the muzzle of his gun?
    Stand and fight with your fists? “BANG”, your dead.
    Throw the lamp at them? “BANG”, your dead.
    Perhaps leap out the second story window of your house? You might survive that, if your sudden movement toward the window don’t cause the person to fire at you, then it’s “BANG”, your dead.
    But if you submit to them, when they are bored with you, since now you can recognize them, a bullet to your temple would shut you up. “BANG” your dead.
    Either way you look at it, if your unarmed, YOUR DEAD.
    Oh, wait, you have “statistics” that show this scenario couldn’t happen cause the police would be there within 2 minutes of the person breaking in your house, sirens blaring and arrest the person on the spot.

    “I’m still not sure how anybody can feel safe knowing that you have a gun.”
    The above scenario would NEVER happen at my house. Due to the fact that this is a country that allows it’s citizens to be armed, and anyone can tell I AM ARMED, anyone attempting to break in on me and my family will take their life in their own hands. Knowing that, they would go look for someone like you instead, where they know they’d live to see another day, even though you wouldn’t most likely.

    And to the SSG, THANK-YOU FOR YOUR SERVICE AND PROTECTING MY RIGHTS.

  • http://wildblue.net Jean Bailey

    There was a small county someplace in Georgia that made it mandatory for every citizen in that county to own a fire arm for their protection and the crime rate went down to zero. Perhaps if you google that information you may be able to find exactly what county it was in. Yes there are a lot of nuts out there that really (my opinion only) have no right to own a fire arm for any reason whatsoever. Make it a requirement to take a gun safety course just like taking a test for a drivers license before you can obtain a fire arm. Just give the gun shop owner your certification for taking the test. Then you can purchase a gun. Just my opinion.

  • Amador

    Taking away our foundamental right to keep and bear arm is an assult on the very principles that our founding fathers had created. They knew through exprience what a government can do to it’s people, the very people they are to serve and protect. We must not forget what history has tought us, if we do we will repeat it!

  • joe from tampa

    i’m saying this as a democrat who votes straight democrat: you get what you vote for. california is run by liberals, hyper liberals at that, you have no right to be surprised that they dont want you owning guns. sure, republicans are essentially retarded to the economy and foreign relations, but atleast they can read the constitution.

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