Comments Subscribe to Personal Liberty News Feed Subscribe to Personal Liberty

Income Taxes Are Not For Income To The Federal Government

December 20, 2010 by  

Income Taxes Are Not For Income To The Federal Government

Before we get entangled in the doublespeak of the Internal Revenue Service Code and rulings, we need to consider that the whole Orwellian nightmare is a sham imposed by the police power of the State on a gullible people.

Actually the income tax has a dual purpose, and neither is to pay taxes to the government. Its first purpose is to control and redistribute the volume of money. James A. Garfield, the 20th President of the United States said, “Whoever controls the volume of money in any country is absolute master of all industry and commerce.”

The second reason the income tax system exists is to keep a dossier on all citizens. The 1040 tax return is your personal profile.

So-called income taxes, as defined and used by the Socialist State, lead the people into a swamp of confusion as it is designed to do. Socialism attracts corruption and corruption attracts Socialism.

Income tax systems go hand-in-hand with fiat paper money systems. The money creators cannot create wealth but they can transfer wealth with depreciating (inflating) paper money.

Governments make war on their own citizens by depreciating the currency. As the currency is depreciated (inflated) the people are impoverished. There is no way to protect financial assets with a fiat paper money system except as paper money is converted to gold and silver.

Depreciating paper money is not a store of wealth. Gold and silver are. One can bury paper money and the money creators and tax collectors do not know where it is. Yet the State can steal the purchasing power of paper money by creating more paper money and diluting the buried paper money.

The transfer of wealth from the producers and savers to the government is a simple process of increasing the quantity of money. This fact eliminates the need for income taxes.

Using words spoken by Beardsley Ruml, chairman of the New York Federal Reserve from 1941 to 1946, we can dispel the widely believed myth that income taxes are needed for government income. Income taxes have nothing to do with providing income to the government.

In a famous speech he read before the American Bar Association during the last year of World War II, titled Taxes for Revenue Are Obsolete, Ruml said, “The necessity for a government to tax in order to maintain both its independence and its solvency is true for state and local governments, but it is not true for a national government.”

The speech was originally printed in American Affairs in the January, 1946 issue. The editor of American Affairs wrote: “His (Ruml’s) thesis is that given (1) control of a central banking system and (2)an inconvertible currency, a sovereign national government is finally free of money worries and need no longer levy taxes for the purpose of providing itself with revenue. All taxation, therefore,should be regarded from the point of view of social and economic consequences.”

To read the entire speech, go here. It is very valuable information to reveal the fraud of income taxes as Americans understand it.

Bob Livingston

is an ultra-conservative American and author of The Bob Livingston Letter™, founded in 1969. Bob has devoted much of his life to research and the quest for truth on a variety of subjects. Bob specializes in health issues such as nutritional supplements and alternatives to drugs, as well as issues of privacy (both personal and financial), asset protection and the preservation of freedom.

Facebook Conversations

Join the Discussion:
View Comments to “Income Taxes Are Not For Income To The Federal Government”

Comment Policy: We encourage an open discussion with a wide range of viewpoints, even extreme ones, but we will not tolerate racism, profanity or slanderous comments toward the author(s) or comment participants. Make your case passionately, but civilly. Please don't stoop to name calling. We use filters for spam protection. If your comment does not appear, it is likely because it violates the above policy or contains links or language typical of spam. We reserve the right to remove comments at our discretion.

Is there news related to personal liberty happening in your area? Contact us at

  • FreedomFighter

    end the fed

    Laus Deo
    Semper Fi

    • TIME

      I agree with that 100% so everyone “CONTACT YOUR NEW CONGRESS Person” in January 2011, tell them you wnat them to Audit the FED, and that you will take NO Excuses for them not taking action ASAP.

      Also tell them you want them to DEFUND the HCR bill ASAP as well.

      **> As of TODAY get your emails, Fax’s and Telies < up and running and contact your Congress & Senate persons – tell them to "GET THE FCC" out of your INTERNET and tell them you have had enough of the Governments involvment with distorting the MEDIA, and you want them to Protect your "1st Amendment" rights, not destroy them.

      ***PLEASE do this Today no matter how busy your day may be.***

      The FCC has made note that they plan on shutting down countless sights just like this one as of December 22nd 2010.
      So get your ass in gear and tell them NO.

      Also tell your congress and Senate person now that Barry Soetoro's **BATF** leader who he wants to appoint, "YOU DO NOT APPROVE of this person".
      Also that you want them to not allow Barry any more of these appoiments with out the US Citizens approval.

      • Al Sieber

        TIME, I’ve heard about them shutting down sites like this, do you have a link to any info. on this? Al.

        • TIME

          Hi Al,

          No I don’t have a link Per Sa’ ~ I get the scuttle butt straight from the horses mouths – I have a live line to my Congress & Senate persons.
          As well I have a number of clients who are in both houses. So I get Intel on whats going on with out the “daily spin cycle” factors.
          And No FOX news is not really better than any of the others, but at least you do have Mr. Beck who both have a clue.

          And rather you all know it or not, your Congress and Seante persons, don’t always go on Party lines in or on a VOTE.
          Many times its based on how many calls they get PRO v CON, and as a few have told me it was as simple as 99 Con calls to 98 PRO and vise ~ versa. If you don’t want it, TELL THEM!!!!!!!!!
          Can I make it any more clear?

          ** (You all really have to stay on TOP of them like White on Rice.)** Yes, I know there are many who are outright Marxist or belong to the American Socialist party, or are straight up progressives, and these people will do what they want as your not even an issue with them they were either Bought years ago or have an Agenda to unfold. Such as – Stark, Liberman, Kerry, Waxman, Finstien,PigOsee.

          As well there are the ~ RINOS who are Progressives such as ~ Snow, Collins, Graham, Merkouski etc. These people ~ Will do what they were paid to do and its not to your advantage ever!

          Oh and as in 2011 Old Calie is going to go belly up, as well a very strong possibility so to will New York & Illinois.
          Tell your Congress and Senate people “”NO to any and all bail outs”” of states who are not responsible. No more Federal Bail outs at all.

          Look people we are beyond Broke, we are heading to the same status as Rwanda.
          This is not something that can be stopped now its way to late, we are going to fall into a “”depression”” that will make the 1930′s look like a walk in the park on a sunny day in May.

          As I noted its just too late, and too little. We will come out the other end better if we hold these Politicians feet to the fire to do the right thing.
          If not, well then “Welcome to the New World Order” where the population of the world will be scaled down to less than 500 million.

          Think I am pulling your leg? Well then Think again and this time think really hard on it, and look at all the signs.

          When you go for a drive you look for signs on the side of the road that tell you whats ahead, all the signs are there, you just have to open your eyes!

          “The MIND is like a Parachute, It MUST be OPEN to work.”

          • Jukebox

            You are so right about the calls. Some twenty years ago, we had a professional lobbyist speak before our group, and he told us that most members of Congress will merely ask one of their aides if there had been any positive or negative comments about a bill. They would then vote for it or against it, depending on that feedback, without ever reading it, regardless of how ridiculous it may be.

          • Dick Gazinia

            Beck???!!! He has no more sincerity than Kieth Oberlman or Rachel Maddow… Just another half baked actor who created the character of a conservative spokesman, crying to create the illusion of sincerity to lend credence to his poorly researched books and nonsense “university”… all built on the fears and paranoia of his audience.

          • ozarkharper

            “The MIND is like a Parachute, It MUST be OPEN to work.
            I agree with a lot of what you wrote about taxes, but not sure why the ending remark, that I re-quoted. There are other item that also do not work properly, unless they are open. Like a sewer, but I would not compare that to my mind, because an open mind needs to be discriminating, less it accepts everything, as does the sewer.

          • who cares

            Time, if you expect the truth to come out Glenn Beck, I am realy sorry to you. you took the hook line and sinker. and every one who tunes to Fox News. No one under the age of 95 should be allowed to view Fox News for anything or any other right wing station. ever wonder where is your brain??

          • Pat R

            Not only are some states going belly up– the whole UNITED STATES CORPORATION (which is DC) is destined to do the same. Experts around the world say that they can’t survive any longer than the 1st Quarter of

            People we have a De Jure Republic Government in place ready to go at this very moment! The very same Government that our Founders set up has been re-inhabited.

            Americans this is our only chance to survive. Check it out, sign up and get involved now!


          • JC

            “Who Cares”
            Well your moniker certainly suits your words. Obviously you don’t care for or about truth at all. And my guess would be that you are either too young, too stupid, or both to have any idea at all of what real American Values are.
            What you refer to as “Right Wing” are straight up the middle American values based on the Constitution. (look it up).
            And you have to be so far left as to be communist to think of that as right wing. And we Americans have proven in several wars that we are very good at killing communists and fascists.
            So laugh it up … you’re in for a rude awakening and very soon at that.

          • hflashman

            JC —> “What you refer to as “Right Wing” are straight up the middle American values based on the Constitution. (look it up).
            And you have to be so far left as to be communist to think of that as right wing”

            JC..when are you going to get off the high horse ansd realize…the Constitution states and means exactly what the SCOTUS determines it states and reads. Whatever you perceive it saying is not important in the schme of things. What I perceive it as stating (vastly different than you0 is similar. What does matter is the SCOTUS perception and determination.

            Your values..which you characterise as “middle American values’ are nowhere near that. Not even close. You would be as close if you said Cairo Egyt was in the neighborhood of Cairo Ill.

          • deport all muslims

            What we need and hopefully comes, (looks very possible) is a armed revolution!!! It is unfortunately, the only thing that will stop this gangster government! Something that we should do once things start the down turn is, tell the gangster politicians as things continue to get worse, we will come after them first! THEY WILL BE THE FIRST TO DIE! And we will make the French Revolution looks like a kindergarten class in THE 1960′S


          • JC

            Flash, I’ll stay on my moral high horse for the rest of my life, right along with every other American who holds the values of the United States and its Constitution as well as the Bill of Rights dear.
            We ARE America.

            And the SCOTUS is generally as corrupt as you are whacked out.
            You get no points for that.

        • Karolyn

          RIDICULOUS! This is not China!

          • TIME


            Please for the love of God what are you responding too.

          • JC

            No, but we’re going to pass China soon…going the other way…

          • JC

            Off Topic, but this just in:

            Feds want reporting for high-powered rifle sales


          • http://none Mike

            JC, Not really unrelated. When they come for us god forbid we were to be able to defend ourselves. This isnt new either came about in the late 90′s Clinton slipped it into a revision of the Brady Bill. You remember the one that was supposed to have been let expire. Mike L.

          • oldtimeyman

            The greatest tyranny of all is for a government to disarm its own citizens thus putting the populace at the total mercy of the dictator of a tyrannical government. (Dictator + disarmed populace = genocide). In the 20th century alone, nine governments disarmed their own citizens and nine genocides, all committed by those nine governments took place. Those governments include: Ottoman Turkey; the Soviet Union; Nazi Germany and Occupied Europe; Nationalist China; Red China; Guatemala; Uganda; Cambodia (Khmer Rouge) and Rwanda.

            Nearly all nine genocidal states followed a similar, if not exact pattern. That pattern includes mandatory gun permits, a government list of gun owners, licensing of owners, stricter handgun laws, licenses for gun transactions, licensing for ammunition, concealed guns made illegal, warrant-less searches, ban on possession of a gun and confiscation or seizure of guns and the death penalty for resisting.

            In a mere 77 years beginning in Ottoman Turkey in 1915, the nine genocidal states slaughtered about 170 million of their own citizens, who, thanks to gun registration and seizures, were defenseless.

            Small wonder Socialists, liberals and other gun-grabbers fear these 27 words: “A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.”

            Adolph Hitler was totally against private ownership of guns. He said, “The most foolish mistake we would possibly make would be to allow the subject races to possess arms. History shows that all conquerors who have allowed their subject races to carry arms have prepared their own downfall by so doing.”

            The Second Amendment protects the gun rights of individuals and is about preventing tyranny. Gun control and the disarming of the population threaten a nation’s very survival.

            When all else fails, the government’s fall-back position is to simply lie – distort the truth and make statistics lie for them.

            Fox News recently reported that Mexican President Philipe Calderone has called for a permanent ban on so-called assault weapons in the United States. Calderone, the main stream media in the United States and many federal “leaders” have claimed the U.S. provides 90 percent of the assault weapons being used in Mexican drug wars – an outright lie. That number is actually closer to 17 percent.

            The American Socialists and their fellow travelers in the main stream media would have us think that our nation is supplying the Mexican (Terrorists) Gangsters with most of their guns. If that were true, and it isn’t, who then is supplying them with other weapons of war? According to the above article fragmentation grenades are coming from South Korea, most of the AK-47s are from China and shoulder-fired rocket launchers are being supplied from Spain, Israel and former Soviet bloc manufacturers.

            Violence on the Mexican border between lawless drug cartels and the Mexican government that threatens to spill over into the United States has finally caught the attention of the federal government. Their Socialist answer is simple – more stringent gun controls on innocent American citizens.

            “THE OBAMA ADMINISTRATION — speaking through Secretary of State Hillary Clinton and U.S. Sen. John Kerry, D-Mass. – has suggested that the solution to growing Mexican border drug violence among that nation’s lawless drug cartels would be increased gun control in the United States..” Jackson Clarion Ledger - ‎Apr 4, 2009‎

            In the early history of our Republic, the colonists faced the same problem we do today – an unresponsive government. The colonists angered the British with the audacity of the Boston Tea Party. But shots weren’t fired in earnest until about 700 British troops marched on Lexington and Concord to seize the guns, powder and shot stored there. The militia and Minute Men met the British troops and both sides shed blood. Thus the secession from British rule began – not over a few bales of tea tossed into Boston Harbor – but over gun control.

            And that, my friends, is why all the frenzy over guns. The government can’t truly control us if it doesn’t register, control, outlaw and eventually seize private guns.

            If you still don’t believe that gun registration and other gun control laws aren’t on the Progressive/Socialist/Communist/Democrat agenda, read these words.

            “Our main agenda is to have all guns banned. We must use whatever means possible. It doesn’t matter if you have to distort the facts or even lie. Our task of creating a socialist America can only succeed when those who would resist us have been totally disarmed.”
            Sara Brady

            “[N]one of [my family or friends] wants to own an assault weapon, because we have no desire to kill policemen or go to a school or workplace to see how many victims we can accumulate before we are finally shot or take our own lives. That’s why the White House and Congress must not give up on trying to reinstate a ban on assault weapons, even if it may be politically difficult. … We can’t let the N.R.A.’s political blackmail prevent the banning of assault weapons – designed only to kill police officers and the people they defend.” –Jimmy Carter

            “This year will go down in history. For the first time, a civilized nation has full gun registration. Our streets will be safer, our police more efficient, and the world will follow our lead into the future!” German Chancellor Adolph Hitler, spoken in 1933

            Hitler’s seizure of privately owned guns in Europe led to the combat deaths and genocidal murder of 20 million people.

            Then read these words of sanity:

            “The ruling (Socialist) class doesn’t care about public safety. Having made it very difficult for States and localities to police themselves, having left ordinary citizens with no choice but to protect themselves as best they can, they now try to take our guns away. In fact they blame us and our guns for crime. This is so wrong that it cannot be an honest mistake.”
            Malcolm Wallop, former U.S. Sen. (R-WY)

            Law abiding citizens must never allow their Socialist federal government to disarm them.

          • DaveH
          • JC

            Register Nothing!

        • hflashman

          Let me see if I understand the wackiness of the “information”. The government is going to shut down political posting boards? I used to think many on this posting arena were a few fries short of a Big Mac Deal…I no longer think that…I know it as a fact.

          We have an article which states income taxes are OK for state and local gvernments, but not federal. And supports the wackiness by stating some nonesensical BS about there being no need for taxes for the Federal Government can increase money supply.

          And did you notice the every present pitch for gold and silver as per any article by Livingston? lol

          Folks…I’m sure many have not heard of the recent exhaustive study which shows the electorate was wholly operating under misconceptions and lies from the latest round of foreign bought political commericals by the GOP. I can say that because the study clearly showed viewers of FOX News were amongst the highest (by far) of the misinformed/uninformed voter groups.

          But c’mon, this crap about taxes and government needing deflation etc to control the people? ….. get real.

          Inflation IS BUILT into any capitalist system. Capitalism cannot survive in the modern era without inflation of sorts. And if you refuse to believe that, you are wayyyy too far into wacko land for logic and truth to affect you.

          • Historian

            The U.S. Income tax did not exist until 1913. The government seemed to get along just fine before that. Congressmen and soldiers got paid and all the normal functions of government were carried out. So what nonsense are you refering.

          • JC

            here’s Flash again with his Communist Propoganda.
            “Inflation is built into any Capitalist system”

            No it isn’t. It’s built into a controlling Keynesian Fiat Currency System initiated by….wait for it….BANKERS!

            Flash you really do speak in vague half truths and flat out lies.
            My God, but you Commies will stoop to anything.

          • hflashman

            JC…as I stated “Capitalism cannot survive in the modern era without inflation of sorts”

            Prior to the 20th Century, we were still in the Expansion Era where we had room for growth and market expansion without limits. Since we have entered the modern era and matured the system of capitalism which we practice, available ‘growth’ is limited.

            What stimulates buying? One of three factors. Need, cost more tomorrow, have more value tomorrow. If you have a manufacturing base which produces more than the “need”, then you have to have one of the other two to create a system of manufacturing, buying, selling.

            Thus, you have to have inflation of sorts to create the other two factors underpinning the decision to buy now. Every modern capitalist system targets for moderate inflation in its monetary policy. The target “bucket” is inflation at 3-5% … any more or any less creates a disruption to the system and monetary policy changes to bring inflation up or down to the primary levels.

            Let me guess…you rely on FOX for your daily medications …

          • JC

            Infaltion does not exist in a hard currency, free market economy.
            Flash, talking in circles gives you no credibility, especially when you are espousing statist propoganda.

          • libertytrain

            for your view – you use the word pitch – always negative in your translations. For many of us I’m of the thought he is trying to suggest helpful ideas to us.

          • hflashman

            Seriously JC? inflation does not occur in hard currency economies? I was going to sam you down using Texas as an example when the state was a cuntry…but here…how about 1790-1800. I believe the US was a hard currency market then.

            Jeesh … the ignorance of those watching FOX grows every day

            Annualized Inflation Rate
            1790 – 1800

            In 1795, inflation was 14.4

          • Vicki

            HFlashman don’t quit your day job and try to become an economist. :)

          • hflashman

            Psst..Vicki. I am supposing you are thinking you have a better explanation ? Feel free to expound….please do.

          • JC

            FYI Flash. I don’t watch Fox. I don’t watch CNN. I don’t watch Beck or anyone else. I have a mind of my own and it is an “American Mind” based on Constitutional thinking.

            You still haven’t qualified a damned thing, you’re still talking in half circles and vague assertions.
            You, like all socialists are a complete waste of time.

            The Fed and the IRS are illegal under the Constitution of the United States and should be abolished. Period.


            Hey Flash! Look behind you, it’s the guys in the white coats sneaking up. You better run back into the woods and eat some more of them yellow looking mushrooms. Run! Run! faster, you will make it, just run!

          • Another Voice

            Historian, the reason why there were no income taxes before 1913 is because the government didn’t the money. Our government’s ‘income’ came from the sale of land – LOTS of land – which had been stolen from the Indians. Also, there were huge tariffs on imports (nobody had invented the ‘free trade’ thing at that time.) We were a developing nation until the early 20th century, at which time our private industries learned how to make huge profits from our country’s wars. And where did our government get the money to wage war, once it had run out of land to sell???? You guessed it: the government had to tax the income of its citizens!

          • DaveH

            You’re wasting your time, Flashdunce. You have no credibility on this board. Anybody who does any reading at all knows that the Obama administration is pushing hard for “net neutrality”, and the newer version of the censoring so-called “fairness doctrine” which is outlined by Mark Lloyd in this article:

          • DaveH

            And Flashdunce tries to convince us that “Inflation IS BUILT into any capitalist system. Capitalism cannot survive in the modern era without inflation of sorts. And if you refuse to believe that, you are wayyyy too far into wacko land for logic and truth to affect you”.

            So, Flashdunce wants you to believe that destroying your cash savings by printing excess money and reducing your purchasing power is somehow good for the economy.
            His comments are beyond ignorant, which makes me wonder why does he try so hard to convince people of his Liberal propaganda? What’s in it for him? He surely doesn’t really believe the crap he spews, so the only conclusion one can reach is that he is a tool of the Obama administration.

          • Free-Texan

            Even the Courts know/show you’re wrong. The following case has never been overturned, still has standing:
            The government cannot suppress the information on direct unapportioned taxes anymore. The government’s fraudulent claim that the prohibition was overturned by the 16th Amendment, is rebutted by the STEWARD case, 24 years after the 16th Amendment was passed. Nothing has changed that since 1937.The last direct apportioned tax was in 1861.

            No direct unapportioned tax confirmed by the US Supreme Court rulings in CHAS. C. STEWARD MACH. CO. v. DAVIS, 301 U.S. 548, 581-582(1937)

          • j

            well, its dead clear that nobody on this message board bothered to actually read the black letter of the law to ascertain without any doubt as to the true nature of US tax law. fyi, people, “wages” does NOT mean all that comes in & if you dont perform the functions of a public office (as in youre a publicly elected official) or do not work directly for the US Government (or any instrumentality thereof), then you are NOT AN “EMPLOYEE” for tax purposes. please do not believe me, go and see for yourself…..United States Code Title 26 (aka the Internal Revenue Code) and the Code of Federal Regulations Title 26. This is the reason I get back 100% of my witholdings from state and federal each year. oh and by the way….the income tax began with the passage of the Revenue Act in the 1870′s. 1913 was when the Federal Reserve was created. (booooohisssssss!)

          • http://donthaveone Beberoni

            Flash is whack. His statements are totally absurd, and no where resembling the truth. Capitalism does not need inflation, or cause inflation. Get your milk crate Flash, climb up on it, and start pointing fingers and placeing blame like a good democrat.

          • http://facebook Baby

            That is why Fox news is number one in the ratings, Because they don’t tell the truth!..Just what planet are you on! Just what the hell does FOX have to do with this Income Taxes BS? News Flash!..Our Government is not poorly managed..They know just what the hell they are doing to the American People..They just forgot to tap us on the shoulder before they stuck it to us!! So you say I can say that because the study clearly showed viewers of FOX News were amongst the highest (by far) of the misinformed/uninformed voter groups.
            I don’t know what study you where reading Sir, But it is Wrong!! I am very Informed! It’s clear you are so one of those..I’m always right kinda people..Lmao!..You could not be more wrong! You are crazy enough to blame a News channel for all of Americas Prop’s..That is just sad…And to who ever Blames Glen Beck and or called him a nut case..NOT SO! and if you think so..Don’t watch him then!..It’s still a free America..For now! If your not happy with the Government then get up off your ass’s and do something..I DO!..Bunch of Cry Babies..BooHoo…The Federal Government is not nice and taking all our money! Put the real blame on Obamanation and G.Soros and the rest of his crew that took just 2 years to put Our Great Nation in a chit hole!..I’m done, and unlike the rest of you, I will not be back to go back in worth with you people who seem to have nothing better to do then point the finger and try to out smart one another..I just read everything I can and seen your sad comments is all..Good luck to you all with that ;-)..God Bless and MERRY CHRISTMAS ALL!

        • darrell of Va

          Yes- check this link out- (link removed)

        • Kate8

          Al – I don’t have a link either, but I have read several articles in email newsletters that Obama is holding meetings this week, beginning today, to place the internet under UN regulations.

          The Senate also passed S510, the food bill, again, stuffed in another bill. And R’s caved on it.

          So many of us have been calling and writing our Congressweasels nonstop, but to no avail. They have an agenda to pull off, and they aren’t about to let us get in the way.

          I have a feeling that they are given the choice of either ‘go along and have a future in the NWO’, or perish with the general population. Not hard to see how they would choose, self-serving spineless yellow-bellies that they are.

          • who cares

            The more you watch Fox (OPINION) News THE LESS YOU KNOW. the GOP with their FREE MARKET and deregulation enjoy the free internet while is free. just us I said to many of my friends is not the Democrats who is taking your rights and guns away But they will get the blame for it. Kate8 enjoy your life with blineds.

          • JeffH

            “who cares”? Baaa, baaa, baaa! You’re late for your evening feed at the trough…

          • Al Sieber

            Kate8, thanks for letting me know about S510, didn’t know. and “Who cares” thats why we’re in trouble, people like you.

          • http://gunner689 gunner689

            Does that baboon in the White house ever do anything that protects or promotes freedom in our country??

          • Granny Mae


            Thanks for the info. I didn’t know either! This is becomming a loosing battle. Maybe after the new-Bs take over in January we can get the house to impeach ! Has to be done by the house and you know that Pelosi would never do that!

          • hflashman

            Kate8—> ” Al – I don’t have a link either, but I have read several articles in email newsletters that Obama is holding meetings this week, beginning today, to place the internet under UN regulations.”

            Actually kate…just so you have your facts straight…the debate in the UN was set in motion by…..yep…Bush II in 2005 when the US sponsored a growing trend amongst givernments to set forth standards for overall internet control and content. Yes….we started the debate in ’05. And the GOP led the way for control by government.

            However…today, the US is coming out against any government control and is pushing for continued civic control…as it currently operates. Those who are in favor of gvernment control continue to be China, Brazil, Saudi Arabia and developing nations. Those against are Europe, Australia, India and now the US as it switched positions.

            There you are…the truth. Your darlin’ GOP and Bush II sponsored the beginning of the UN movement for government control of the ‘net. The current admin switched that position to protect free ‘net usage.

            Hope you yell that from the rooftops as loud as you yell the mistruths and lies eminating from FOX McNews and Hannity and Beck etc.

          • Vicki

            HFlashman writes:
            “There you are…the truth. Your darlin’ GOP and Bush II sponsored the beginning of the UN movement for government control of the ‘net. The current admin switched that position to protect free ‘net usage.”

            Lots of talk. Anyone can tell a story. How about some evidence.

      • Art J

        hey,folks,go ahead and contact your congress critters,but don’t expect them to help as they work for the corporation,not you and me. Then come join me in the restored Republic at The corporation has already submitted to the Republic and we will be ridding ourselves of many layers of unwanted gov. very soon.

        • TIME


          100% Wrong attitude, Learn who your reps are, learn what they are and know your reps inside and out.
          I only noted a few there are well over 120 who are members of the {American Socialist party,} there are at least ( 50 who are out right Marxist,) and countless who are “Progressives.” Keep in mind that Progressive may also fit the mold of the two noted above as well. They all have the same goals, so learn all about them so YOU can aid in defeating them in 2012 if we even have a Vote then.

          And if you all don’t get your butts in gear soon, well you will not have to think about it anylonger, and if you bitch whine or complain you will be removed just like in Nazi Germany, or Russia up until the late 1990′s.

          “The mind is like a Parachute, It has to be OPEN to WORK.”

          • Carole Howell

            I find your mind is open to a whole lot of bull roar. Half the battle is knowing your enemies, you know very little about your true enemies.


            You are speaking of a time (before 1913) that was before our massive plan to rule the world, now we have U S military bases in 130 countries around the world. How would the gov. pay for these bases w/o taxes?

          • TIME


            Please put down the bottle of Scotch and clear out your head.

            “The mind is like a Parachute, IT has to be OPEN to WORK.”
            Grasp what that means Carole? I think not.

          • Angel Wannabe

            Carole, although a separate entity, the Federal Reserve can and does print however much money they want, and give it to who they want. They don’t “need” us!

          • Kate8

            TIME – As hard as it is for people to hear, what you say is right. We are standing on the precipice of utter destruction. I read also that the depopulation is being sped up, as the elites want us thinned out dramatically ASAP.

            The borders are being erased; children in LA are being digitally marked, and this will spread throughout (to condition them to being controlled); gasoline is becoming 85% ethanol in order to burn up car engines; our banks are on the verge of collapse, along with the dollar; government is intruding on every aspect of our lives…
            California is passing sweeping Cap and Trade policies…

            I could go on and on. 2011 will be a pivotal year. Some say martial law by the end of the year, which means a whole lot of trouble in store.

          • Pat R

            You are of the wrong attitude! It is happening right now all accross
            America. All 50 Republics are ready and in action now. This is not a maybe; it’s a “done” deal. The rest of the world is supporting the Republic for the united States. Obama is only the president of the UNITED STATES CORPORATION–which is DC. Don’t believe me?; check it out.


          • who cares

            (High) Time, Thank all of your lucky stars for Democrats, Progressives (Advancing) for they are the last firewall from a complete destruction, ruin of America. GOP fight democrats on everything they propose to help the American. GOP hold back bills that would help American workers. Give tax breaks to companies that leave the USA. Refuse to help companies in the USA, and the American worker. Corporations want the GOP to help them roll back the minimum 40 hour per week and eliminate the minimum hourly wage. No over time pay. about nazis you guys already the brown shirt.

          • DaveH

            The Liberals have been trying to convince us for 2 years now that they have the answer. But what do they really offer? A terrible economy, less freedom, and (as evidenced on this board) fabricated facts and personal attacks.
            Give it up, Liberals, we are wise to you. Your best bet would be to go back to the Liberal websites where conjecture, condescension, name-calling, and ridicule pass for sound debate.

          • hflashman

            Well Dave H … I guess the updated figures on the economy aren’t shown on FOX. They are looking far better than the abyss most posters on tis board paint them to be. Fact is…we are coming out of the Bush II/ GOP induced economic fiasco. Took two years, but looks like the Obama plan kapt us from economic ruin and has put us back into growth. Now we have to tackle the debt crisis and the dficits built up and entrenched into the budget by the GOP in the first eight years of ths century.

          • eddie47d

            Dave H is blowing more smoke;always his way or the highway.

        • Another Voice

          Art, you are absolutely right. Big money controls everything and everybody, and it doesn’t really care which party is in power as long as it can remain in charge. Either way, the people get screwed.

          • hflashman

            Welcome to your darling Reagan Revolution, as completed by Bush II.

            Ya got what you asked for beginning in 1980. Corporatism. Are you happy?

          • JC

            And Flash throws out another tiny brained bunch of drivel.
            Corporatism began with Alexander Hamilton (who should have been hung) and has grown almost completely unabated through every administration since.
            The problem is sytemic…not right or left.

          • Dan az

            Well put!

          • JeffH

            HFlash is the board communist!

          • Al Sieber

            JC, at least Aaron Burr finally took care of A. Hamilton.

          • Patriot1776

            Why does anyone even bother to repond to flashman? he’s like a child, and will quit when ignored long enough. It’s fun for him the attention he gets here. Stop commenting on his half truth stupidity!!!!!!

          • who cares

            Were you not one of the ones for or against the tax cut to the Corporation and wealthy? Democrats tried to warn you But has fallen on death ears.

          • Carole Howell

            Angel Wannabe,

            Honey if that is true then why are we BORROWING TRILLIONS FROM CHINA?

            Time, you are very close to an idiot. As I said, your mind has been open to some really weird information, where, pray tell, do you get all that poppy cock?

          • DaveH

            Carole can’t even get her post in the right place to the right person, and she expects any of us to listen to her half-baked personal attacks masquerading as comments?

        • http://facebook Baby

          OK..Lied! I didn’t see Art’s comment. Mr.Art thanks for info Sir! I will for sure use it! Nice to see someone on this site with something worth talking about..You hear them right..That won’t work!..I’m right, Not you…Trucking cry Babies..This is part of the blame why we are in a mess, because these people voted for Mr.Change!!..How ya’ll liking the change now? Stupid is as stupid does ;-)..God Bless you Art! and Merry Christmas!

      • JeffH

        TIME, hear ya loud and clear. For those who just want to give up, let you voices be heard, don’t cower in the getal position waiting for the end.

        I watched the flag pass by one day,
        It fluttered in the breeze;
        A young Marine saluted it,
        And then he stood at ease.

        I looked at him in uniform,
        So young, so tall, so proud;
        With hair cut square and eyes alert,
        He’d stand out in any crowd.

        I thought… how many men like him
        Had fallen through the years?
        How many died on foreign soil?
        How many mothers’ tears?

        How many pilots’ planes shot down
        How many died at sea
        How many foxholes were soldiers’ graves
        No, Freedom is not Free.

        I heard the sound of Taps one night,
        When everything was still;
        I listened to the bugler play,
        And felt a sudden chill;

        I wondered just how many times
        That Taps had meant “Amen”
        When a flag had draped a coffin
        Of a brother or a friend;

        I thought of all the children,
        Of the mothers and the wives,
        Of fathers, sons and husbands.
        With interrupted lives.

        I thought about a graveyard
        At the bottom of the sea,
        Of unmarked graves in Arlington.
        No. Freedom is not Free!

        Unites States Coast Guard

        • TIME

          Hey Jeff,
          Merry Christmas to you and your family, Have a safe and Happy New Years.

          We all have a long hard fight ahead of us but I really think we can win this.
          ((Its not going to be easy,)) we are in for some really hard times like no one can fathom, you folks that lived during the last Depression had a hard road, this one is going to be far worse. Why? We really are Broke as a nation now, and have nothing to back up our debt’s no Manufacturing, as well No real business’s of any kind that produce products and what few we have left have been all but destroyed by the unions.

          • Kate8

            TIME – We can win if enough folks will be willing to look the situation straight on. It’s definitely not for the faint of heart, but everyone will be caught up in it whether they like it or not.

            It’s time for the American spirit to rise up and hold ground. It’s time for God’s people to stand up and prophesy doom over the NWO, failure of the treasonous, and success for the cause of Liberty.

            With God’s help we are equal to the task. The elite have no power except that which God has allowed (enough for them to hang themselves). God is ALL-POWER. There is no other.

          • JeffH

            TIME & Kate8, I’ve got enough spunk left to battle to the end, whatever it takes. Losing just isn’t part of my vocabulary.

          • http://donthaveone Beberoni

            Your post was very good and truthful, except the part about the great recession. We will not come near it, unless one thing happens. If America elects another democrat, or gives Obama a second term, then sir, you just might be correct. I guess I tend to think positive, and dont believe the American public is that stupid to do such a thing.

        • who cares

          right wingers like yourselves love to drape your self with flag, beat your chest like (monkey)a drum for America to go to war. But refused or unwilling to served America because you guys are chickenhawks like your body Bush. You guys are brown shirts

          • http://donthaveone Beberoni

            Excuse me. I beat my chest, and I served, and I know that only through force comes peace. That is the only way it is attained sir, and if you dont agree, then you are a sucker. And if it wasnt for the right, we wouldnt have a military to defend us and keep us strong, because the liberal left would just as soon dismantle the military, take away everyones guns, and sit around the campfire burning fatties singing kumbaya and hope no ones attacks us. Pacifism and appeasement are sure fire ways of defeat sir. They have lost everytime they have ever been used. The left wing liberals are all pacifist appeasers, and are very damning to the United States of America. Your statement shows how ill informed you are. You may now take your foot out of your mouth.

      • who cares

        You vote them in, But the GOP Republicans do not work you. The more Fox (opinion) News you watch, the less you know of anything and dumber yoy become. Each and everyone of you must of got your media misinformation from Fox, Glenn Beck, Sean Hannity. or Limbaugh, right wing news paper. SET ONE SELF FREE. You want know the truth msmbc The Rache Maddow Show. With the help of the GOP Goverment paid by Tax payers like you and me called Socialist (system). lots of money is being paid from Fox News and corporations to shut down radio and tv program that dont have the same message as theirs at the same “TIME” keep you dumb completely brainwash and distorting the truth. FCC is not the one want to end Net Neutrality But the will enforce the rules to keep you from hearing the truth if Corporation have it their way. again with help of tax dollars and the GOP..

        • Joseph T Babbo

          This is the greatest nation ever to appear on the face of this Earthand it will take Manly Men and Womenly Women, to sustain it. I served and will continue to serve, with Hope and Faith and Courage through the help of Almighty God!!aom

          • http://facebook Baby

            Amen! Joseph..and Thanks for all you have done ;-)..Merry Christmas to you and your!

        • http://donthaveone Beberoni

          Ok, you dont like them. Thats your right. Have you ever caught them in a lie? I havent, and I watch them. But Ive caught every stinking liberal in lies. Katie Couric does it almost everynight. And when she says something stupid and gets nailed, she acts like she didnt hear the correction of her, and will turn right around the next night and keep saying the same stupid lie until someone agrees with her. Beck and Limbaugh and Hannity dont need to do that. They tell it like it is, and if you dont like it, then sir or madam whoever you are, you whole heartedly reject the truth, and the truth is not in you. Must be a pretty miserable place you live in, following and supporting a bunch of liars and rejecting the truth.

          • Richard Pawley

            Just remember it was Hitler and some of his associates who even said that if you tell a lie, a really big lie, long enough the masses will believe it. Sadly that is what has happened to the major networks, they are little more than mouthpieces for the government. Socialism has failed in every place it has been tried but we have some 20% clamoring for it here. Fox News is the only network worth watching other than the history channel (sometimes) and the Learning Channel (sometimes). As far as Glenn Beck, what he reports is often what has been hidden from us so effectively it seems as if it couldn’t be true but it is more thoroughly researched than anything on the OTN (Old Three Networks). I’ll admit he seems a bit more fearful of the Marxists than I but some of the amazing things he has uncovered remind me of my uncle who was born in 1921 who when he first heard about ‘black heroes of the Revolution’ thought it was all made up to support the Civil Rights movement. He had never encountered this in his entire life and so he just dismissed it. Remember when you hear these outrageous things or see them here the person is either a plant, someone who enjoys controversy or just someone who is fearful that it may be true. This is not a Republican thing or a Democratic thing, it is a freedom loving thing of individualism versus the Marxist idea of collectivism. Even our president speaks of collective salvation, a totally alien idea from the gospels that the founding fathers believed in or the one in the Bible. Just remember that America is the land of cults with some 3,000 some years ago. I wish these people who are so unhappy here could move to country better to their liking but they are so unhappy I don’t think they would even fit in if they were suddenly transported to the third Heaven. They need a change of heart and after the present financial crisis ends and the later bigger one begins they might find out what hard times are really all about, when government is powerless to help anyone because it is beyond broke. It’s going to be interesting but those who can trust in guidance from God are going to be so much better off. It all comes down to the basic fight between good and evil and both can be found in surprising places. Dum spiro spero!

      • fedupwidit

        Yes I want them to audit the Fed, but let’s face it, they never will, neither Demoncrat or Repuglicans. They are all one and the same. They serve their International banker masters. This constitutional government that we think we have is an illusion and I for one am getting sick of all the lies. Someone once said. “The power to tax is the power to destroy” We are all dumb sheeple just doing their bidding, while they sit on their fat elitists arses and plot to destroy our country and take away our freedoms…Power to the people!!!!!!

        • barbara

          This is what we should be focusing on. It’s taken too long for enough Americans to realize how we’ve been duped by the elitists. They know who they are, You all can too. Look up the membership of the Council on Foreign Relations. You’ll be surprised who’s rubbing elbows and plotting against us. By the way, Time, can you publish a list here of the 120 members of the Congress and Senate who are members of the American Socialist Party, and/or Marxists. One thing about Conservatives, we don’t mind firing our own who become traitors to our values. The Liberals pat bad acts on the back. We just need to get serious about admitting who is what and tend to business. GOP or Dems, there’s no difference at the top. I am hoping we can start from scratch. What I really despise is a RHINO.

      • Don

        TIME says:…and that you will take NO Excuses for them not taking action ASAP.

        Or what?
        Or you’ll vote for the lessor of two evils in a few years?
        You have no teeth, nothing to bargain with.
        The politician has all the power and you have nothing.
        Why in the world would the politican do as you meekly request?

        Here’s the deal, taxation is theft, plain and simple.
        If you allow people to steal from you then you can only blame yourself.

        No, I don’t like this fact either, but things are what they are and it’s up to the individual on how to address the theft.

        But under no circumstance is whining and begging for mercy acceptable by any grown up with a shred of integrity.

        At least 3/4 of the people on this planet are clinically insane right now.

        • barbara

          That’s the problem. We have no recourse. What if the president issues an executive order to override the constitution. Nothing happens. Why have we allowed TREATIES, to take precedence over the Constitution. Do all of you know that is true? And these Congressional Marxists will not listen to us, They are untiring, and just keep pushing. Look at the S510 bill, ie; the Food Mafia bill. Boy were we screwedby our GOP reps.. The liberals know every trick in the book, and know how to pull all the stops out on a freshman congress before they even get going. They rely on Republicans caving. When the Democrats want something, they whine about “compromise”, but they NEVER make any real deviations from their socalist agenda. Everybody, read Gary Allen’s book “None Dare Call it Conspiracy. You’ll see EVERYTHING that’s really going on a lot clearer.

      • Rick Green

        Stop anything the government wants to do with the inter internet and no more government in any part of how we the american per;ple live out lioves.. And please stop the Start Treatdy befor you all sell us down the road.. You should be asking us about just about everything you are working on.. Because you the Senate and the Congress can’t run anything right or get anything good out of anything you touch.. So ask the poe;ple if you want to get it done right.. Because that is who you are working for.. And you had better take that to heart.. Or I will see to it that you are all Fired..One way or the other..Income tax is volintary and always has been.. You are lieing to us and destoring our contry and amercian live everyday you in office.. all of you…. You just don’t want to give up your way of life that you have liied and cheated to get… And robbed us blind..

        • http://donthaveone Beberoni

          You are correct about income tax. It was set up as voluntary, and was never ratified as a law. But no where can you get an employer not to take it out. I worked with a guy that knew it was illegal for them to take federal income tax from us, but our employer did not want to challenge the federal government, and wouldnt let him do it. So he then falsified his tax returns claiming 18 dependants, so that he wouldnt have hardly any tax taken out. So now he broke the law, and he lost his house and nearly everything 5 years later. The only way to stop it, is if 10 million of us did it. They cant jail us all, but they can take all of our houses away. I wish I knew how to combat this, because Id do it in a heartbeat.

          • David Hayter

            The problem is always ignorance. Most people don!t even know the subject of this so called “income tax”. It is an indirect tax which is never on people or property{such as incone}. The subject is always on activities. If you are not involved in a taxable activity {and most people aren`t} you are not subject to or liable for the tax. Read Otto Skinner`s book on it and find out what the supreme court and Congress said about it. His books are The best kept secrect & The biggest tax loophole of all.

    • Lee

      Can you say FairTax act??? That would end the fed, and you get to keep ALL the money you make. No more end of year paperwork, no more panic over the government coming after you, if you make a mistake. Why aren’t more people talking about the FairTax act??? It is a thing of beauty. But, the whole country has to find out about it, and push for it. You only pay tax, if you buy something, and you could actually begin to save money, to purchase some big ticket item that you wouldn’t ever be able to buy the way things are now.
      I would love to see this happen.

      • MR MYTH

        Lee, I’ve been arqueing for a long time about this very thing. This is the first I’ve heard of the fair tax act though.

        We’re a Capitalistic society and our well being is based on having a sound economy. It’s impossible to have a sound economy when the Govn’t is stealing hundreds of billions off the top every month, of said economy, in the form of INCOME TAX.

        So, with that said, I agree completely. Everybody pays an equal percentage by what they purchase, whatever that number might be. I buy a canoe, 10%. Mr. Moneybags buys a sixty million dollar yacht, 10%.

        Property taxes are another thing that needs to be, let’s say, redone.
        First off, it’s extortion through abuse of authority. Any time you hold a threat over someone,(i.e.taking their home), forcing them to pay you X number of dollars, or else, is extortion.

        And quite unfair percentage-wise.

        One couple can struggle, pinch and save everywhere and anywhere they can in order to pay their annual property taxes, (let’s say 7% of their annual income), while just over the hill a whealthy couple living on an equal amount of acreage and a similarly valued home pays only .00378% of their income,(basically pocket change).

        I’m not saying all should stuggle. But it should be fair and equal.

        People on fixed or low incomes shouldn’t be forced from their home’s because they can’t pay the county sheriff excessive amounts of money.

        • Lee

          Yeah, property tax should also be on the FairTax. I’m not clear about that, but in our town, the tax is based on the size and worth of your property, not on income. So my neighbor who has a smaller piece of property, but makes considerably more money, pays a lower property tax than I. Our house cost less, back in the day, but is now worth more, but our income is substantially less, especially being retired. The tax is getting closer and closer to what we paid for the house, in the first place. I think a municipal tax for schools, might be a better plan than property tax, given also, that apartment dwellers pay none, directly. Or just a state FairTax at a lower rate than the federal one. Can you imagine how much money the governments would have? I’m just sick and tired of all the forms, and laws, and outright confiscation of our money, because fat-cats like Harry Reid go around saying that they have a ‘responsibility’ to take it, so they don’t have to give up their power.
          It’s time we take back our country. Spread the word, about the FairTax, to anyone who will listen.

          • Kate8

            All this talk about fair tax and flat tax are great, but the greater issue is about to be whether we’ll be able to work at all, except for government jobs.

            DHS is planning to require permission to hold a private-sector job.

            I’m telling you people, America is being decimated, and 2011 will bring much hardship and death. Some have referred to this time as “the great dying”.

            If you don’t earn money, you don’t pay taxes, and all you have is confiscated. This will affect everyone, even if you voted for Obama!

            Of course, it will really hit those who oppose him.

          • Kate8
        • http://donthaveone Beberoni

          Not only what they are stealing for income tax, but what they use it for that they feel the need to keep upping it on the working man, and on the successful. They take it and reward the failures, by giving them handout after handout. That is why it keeps growing and growing in the first place.

      • Carole Howell

        You are so right, it is not a right or left issue. But there are those who like to divide. Those who fall for the division forget DIVIDE AND CONQUER. They will be this country’s doom, if they do not wake up.

      • Pilgrim2850

        Amen Lee………..We have to get the news out about FairTax. It would set this country on fire with growth, raising the standard of living, etc. But, of course, the powers that be are not going to let that happen.

        • http://none Mike

          Pilgrim, Its going to be hard to get either party to turn loose of your purse strings . The democrats want to take it all away and the republicans use it as a reward system. You know who gets it in the end? The middle class. I have seen alot of posters on this sight gunning for it saying its just another scam. They must be the ones that enjoy abuse. Or just love the goverment so much that they dont mind handing over 40% of their income to it at the point of a gun
          Mike L.

          • Jim

            Now you people are talking! We need to stop the bickering amongst ourselves and turn our attention to the real problem. We need to work together to take back our country. “They” laugh at us, seeing us go back and forth at each other. For too many years we’ve been so engrossed with being “right” that we haven’t even seen “them” reaching into our pockets.

            The more we stand apart – the greater “their” victory.

          • http://donthaveone Beberoni

            These last few posts I have read, about coming together make total sense. However, we can only do that for now as a people. Our leaders will never do it, as long as our elected leaders are all lawyers. All they care about is money and power, and frankly, that is all I believe they ever will care about. Money rots peoples minds, and these guys got so much of it, they got the bug, and they want more and more of it. It consumes them. Man cannot serve both God and money. It is written that way, and if you look, you can see the truth in that. If our leaders sought to serve God, we the people would come first, because those are things of God. But they serve the money god, and that means they and their power and wealth come first. Its just a stone cold fact. God didnt get this wrong people. He knew, and just look what they all do in the quest for money and power. I rest my case.

      • Henryptnm

        Fair Tax? Just what this country needs. A tax plan by billionaires for the wealthy. Texas billionaire Leo Linbeck,Jr is the founder and head of Fair Fair Tax taxes food, clothes, rent, buying a house, buying a car, utilities, medical, doctor visits, auto repairs, fuel for cars (Fair Tax, Fed. gas tax and state gas tax). If Fair Tax is enacted, it only repeals pertaining to income. It does NOT repeal Fed. or state fuel taxes, it does NOT repeal any state sales taxes or state income taxes. It does NOT repeal the 16th ammendment. With state sales taxes added on, it could go up to 50%. This information is from Fair Tax Fraud-Laurence M.Vance-Mises Daily website: Their so-call prebate: 1 person-$208 a month, couple- $415 a month and with children, it rises. Infomation: Fair Tax Wikipedia. Fair Tax is nothing but a gimmick and a SCAM.

        • Lee

          Go to, and look at the About FairTax link. You don’t know anything about it. Here is just a quick synopsis of the FairTax:

          ” The FairTax taxes us only on what we choose to spend on new goods or services, not on what we earn. The FairTax is a fair, efficient, transparent, and intelligent solution to the frustration and inequity of our current tax system.

          The FairTax:

          Enables workers to keep their entire paychecks
          Enables retirees to keep their entire pensions
          Refunds in advance the tax on purchases of basic necessities
          Allows American products to compete fairly
          Brings transparency and accountability to tax policy
          Ensures Social Security and Medicare funding
          Closes all loopholes and brings fairness to taxation
          Abolishes the IRS
          We offer a library of information throughout this Web site about the features and benefits of the FairTax plan. Please explore!”

          • Henryptnm

            Lee: You don’t know about Fair Tax either. I look at Fair I will NOT back any tax scheme imposed by BILLIONAIRES to better themselves. Texas billionaire Leo Linbeck, Jr. is the founder and head of Fair I read and look at Fair I will NOT read any book written by Neal Boortz on the Fair Tax. I don’t read books written by con-artists, liars and racists. I read every website about the Fair Tax. You said when buying a new car you only pay Fair Tax on it. When buying the car used, there are no sales taxes. Fair Tax does NOT repeal any state sales taxes. You gave false information on that. Fair Tax is still a SCAM.

          • Henryptnm

            Lee: This Fair Tax will destroy businesses and stores on the U.S. side bordering Canada and Mexico and new car sales. My father lives in Maine near the Canadian border. A lot of Canadians come to Maine to shop. Reason: lower sales taxes. If Fair Tax is enacted, it will be the opposite. Canada will have lower sales taxes. This thing will shut all the stores down, creating unemployment. New car sales will drop because people will be buying used cars. They will only be paying any state sales taxes on used vehicles. No Fair Tax. This will hurt senior citizens. Fair Tax taxes medical, doctor visits and also rent. $700 rent, $210 Fair Tax. I know about the prebates. 1 person-$208 a month, couple-$415 a month. Information: Fair Tax Wikipedia. I’ve done a lot of research on Fair Tax, looking into their website plus also Fair Tax Fraud and Fair Tax Gimmick. Sure you get your withholdings but you need every cent to pay the high sale taxes. With state sales taxes added on, in some places, it could reach 50%. Gas could go to $1 to $2 more. ( Fair Tax, Fed. gas tax and state gas tax)Fed. and state gas taxes will NOT be repealed by Fair Tax.

          • http://none Mike

            Henry, Get a clue friend. When the fair tax is enacted all imbedded taxs are dropped. The net result is an item costing you 110$ now with the imbedded taxes will still cost you 110$ after the fair tax. That is where you people loose the argument that the fair tax will raise the cost of items.Mike L.

          • Henryptnm

            Mike: I got the clue. You don’t have a clue. There is a website you should read. Fair Tax vs. Income Tax- Robert Longley Website: In this it tells who are the winners and losers of Fair Tax. WINNERS: People who inclined by not consuming (underground markets). People who can shop in other countries. (Canada or Mexico)which I explain. People who own businesses. Sales taxes will only be charged on goods bought by individuals and NOT by firms. Rich people can buy new cars but only can register cars in their firm’s name. Wealthest 1%. LOSERS: Seniors, poor, middle class and families with incomes less than $200,000. Mike: I got the clue. A tax system set up for the ultra-rich.

          • Henryptnm

            Mike: The imbedded taxes pertains to individual income on Federal level. There is nothing on fuel tax ( Fed. or state). Fair Tax will be added unto Fed. and state fuel tax. There is nothing on state sales tax. Nothing on state income tax. Information: Fair Tax Fraud- Laurence Vance- Mises Daily, Website: He got this information on Fair Tax-2005. Taxes to be repealed if Fair Tax is enacted: Only on individual income, capital gains, estate anything pertaining to income.

          • Henryptnm

            These are the taxes to be eliminate if Fair Tax is enacted: Federal income tax, payroll tax, corporate tax, capital gains tax, self employment tax, gift tax and inheritance tax. Nothing on fuel (Fed. or state). Nothing on state sales tax on state income tax. No IRS. There shall be in the Department of the Treasury a Sales Tax Bureau (IRS under another name). There will still be tax courts. Information: Fair Tax Act of 2005.

          • http://donthaveone Beberoni

            I disagree with Henry. If I buy a 400.00 boat, I pay my fair tax, whatever percentage they set it at. Say they make it 10 percent, so then I would pay the 40.00 tax. Now some rich bloke, like say George Soros, goes and buys a 400 million dollar yacht, he gets to pay 4 million in fair tax. No loop holes, no government write offs that they can hide it in. You play, you pay. I myself see this as evening the playing field all over. Henry says instead of buying a new car, people buy used. Same deal applies. You buy a 10,000.00 used car, you pay 1000.00 dollars tax. You buy a 30,000.00 new car, you pay 3000.00 tax. Whats the big deal Henry? Those that have a lot of money, can afford to buy the new car and pay more, and they will. Problem is, right now there are so many loop holes, they buy these new high dollar cars, and are allowed to write them off, and it trickles down to the tax payer paying for it, instead of those that own them. Thats how it works, and that needs to change.

          • Henryptnm

            Beberoni: You didn’t read what I wrote down there. I got this from Fair Tax vs. Income Tax- Robert Longley- website: This is Robert Longley’s statement, NOT MINE. People who own businesses- Sales tax will be charged on goods bought by individuals and not by firms. If George Soros want to buy a $400 million yacht, he will not buy as an individual. His corporation or firm will buy it as a business expense. No sales tax. Longley wrote this down whether you like it or not. I got this from his website. It will be the same if the wealthy buy new cars. If Donald Trump wants to buy a new Rolls Royce. His corporation will buy it as a business expense. No sales tax. That is how it is set up.

    • JRC

      Lmao, Bob must have not enough kickback money from the “”buy gold”” rip of artists to buy his kin Christmas presents, so there is another buy gold article. The farther we go ahead and the more it looks like the economy will rebound…and then the price of gold will go down of course…the more desperate calls for the sheep to buy “”GOLD”” will be.
      Look for more “”buy gold”” articles masquerading as news and information in the future.

      • JC

        What is your point, like exactly?
        Are you suggesting the the Federal Reserve and the IRS should be let to go on raping us?
        Why don’t you sit quietly until you have something constructive and non sheep like to add.
        Because only the “sheep” are ok with the criminal enterprise underway since Hamilton.

        • http://none Mike

          JC, The point is at the top of his head. Brains located lower regions.Mike L.

      • Cliff

        Actually, silver is where the real money is to be made. Gold is mostly out of reach unless you trade in ETFs. If you think we’re not in some currency crisis, you’ve got your head so far up your a$$ you need a “plexionomy.” That’s where they put a piece of plexiglass over your stomach so you can see where you’re going.

        Amsterdam merchants are already skirting away from taking the US dollar. You have to go to the government offices to convert US dollars into local currency as some tourists have experienced first hand. The dollar used to be the reserve currency in the world, and already you have other countries looking to step up and create a new currency that will replace the dollar. European finance ministers are already having meetings without the US present. That tell you something? We can’t just keep printing money and not expect things to come to a head. Zimbabwe was a country of trillionaires until they devalued their currency. Don’t forget the province in Germany that did the same thing back in the 1920s. They say you can tell when a country will devalue their currency when they announce they won’t. Geithner already stated we won’t devalue our currency.

        Personally, I’m hoping Ron Paul will take charge and put the brakes on the Fed before we, too, end up like those examples.

        • Carole Howell

          Someone needs to do something.

      • Al Sieber

        JRC, you need to do some research on gold/ silver, vs paper money.

    • http://none sean moor

      “END THE FED” you cant kill evil.

    • William

      Guys, do not forget that Fed’s are not a government. It belongs to biggest international bankers. They are printing money, stealing wealth from people, industry and government. Do not forget that about third
      part of entire income taxes are used to pay interest on federal debt.
      Those guys used their power of controlling our government to create this criminal system and keep it throw today. The same way the same guys are robbing not only this country but almost entire world.
      Try do not to be fulled who is who.

      • Dan az

        This is the way that the feds launder phoney money.In the end we are stuck with the bill and noway to pay it back.The fair tax or flat tax works for me because in the end we still end with smaller gov.troops home,and money in our pockets.

      • Gene Husky

        I have read a lot of comments.I think everybody is missing the boat.
        This country was doomed when prayer left the schools and the Ten Commandments became an issue.I do agree the government has an extermination plan and a agenda for one world government.But that is such a small problem.The big problem is the choice of Heaven or Hell.We are at the end of time.They can play money games or pass this bill or that bill,but I want to see there faces when Jesus comes and brings his bill.There is more work done on rights for homosexuals than there ever was for desegregation.I think as the leaders continue to egnore the bible and the constitution our founding fathers designed,it is speeding up the rapture.By the way,there is only one more seal to open.This is the end of the world as we know it.Alturnative life style is not mentioned in the constitution or the Bible.If you are wanting change,the beast thing you can do is pray.Not only government corruption is a big issue,I think passing of openness for gays broke the camels back.If we all just knew as much as we think we do!

      • http://donthaveone Beberoni

        The fed is a bunch of foreigners that control our money and manipulate our economy, and they need booted out immediately if not sooner. How our so called brilliant leaders, simple minded lawyers mind you, ever let this happen is beyond me, but it just goes to show these same lawyers just arent as brilliant as they think of themselves to be. They are the reason we are in this mess, as they allowed the fed to take over, and they are the ones in power that continue to make a mess of things while they all fight over who gets to put the most into their own pockets. Lawyers. Ive got no use for them. The scourge of society they are.

    • who cares

      What the do you know jarhead? or should i say who’s Freeom(Fighter)did you fight for? I did not know someone was about to take our right away. If you did served then you must know under the SOCIALIST SYSTEM (TAX PAYERS) we live under and the Federal Goverment paid’s the Military and everything else. Odd the GOP want to take Vereran benefits away. (ENJOY THE INTERNET WHILE IS STILL FREE)

    • B & J

      yes, the corrupted fed. govt & IRS must be stopped & brought to Justice…they are criminals allowed to cheat & steal from the people of our nation….STOP THEM THIS COMING YEAR….


    • patricia

      I have sent letters and emails to my senators and will keep on doing
      do. It is about time this government realized that their Omnibus bill will do NOTHING but waste more money. The Omnibus is exactly like a bus careenining around a mountain without brakes….!

    • hflashman

      Interesting. I read Livingstone’s comments on Beardsley Ruml, and finally had time to research the man and the speech Livingstone used in his fable. Here are Ruml’s comments from the speech livingstone used [Wikipedia]

      “The real purposes of taxes were: to “stabilize the purchasing power of the dollar”, to “express public policy in the distribution of wealth and of income”, “in subsidizing or in penalizing various industries and economic groups” and to “isolate and assess directly the costs of certain national benefits, such as highways and social security”. This is seen as a forerunner of functional finance or chartalism.

      Quite a difference from what Livingstone portrayed it as. And quite a difference from what the current faddish wacked Right have it as (including FOX McNews who is now highlighting the twisted out of context version used by Livingstone.

      • Bob Livingston

        Dear hflashman,

        Interesting. Rather than read the entire speech you take a couple of Wikipedia excerpts and try and use them to make your argument, which is, what exactly?

        Wikipedia as your source? Really? Come on. You can do better.

        Best wishes,

        • MashedTaters

          Wikipedia is liberal for most purposes outside technical or scientific subjects. And not technical enough for those in most cases. Nor, practical.

  • Fed Up Gal in NM

    If a tax is necessary, then
    Just a thought.

    • BUD

      The FairTax is not a fair tax ! ! ! More properly titled is Should be Called a FairTax SCHEME designed to redistribute the wealth from those who have earned and accumulated savings to those who are to lazy to earn their own way. The FairTax SCHEME double taxes the savings of those who have already paid an income tax on thier savings when they earned the savings. Savings, home equity and other resources aquired over a lifetime of work should be exempt from this double taxation just like insurance and annuities are exempt.

      • Lee

        BUD, BUD, BUD You obviously have no idea what you are talking about. There IS NO INCOME TAX, with the FairTAx. It is only on goods and services. You get to keep all the money you make, and if you don’t buy anything, you don’t pay anything. Plus, if you buy a car, and resell it, no used car tax, either. You need to get the facts.

        • DeJay

          BUD has his head where it stinks the most. Look at the burden it will place on small businesses. You’ve heard where small businesses are the biggest employers in this country. They will be presented with tons of paper work. Most small business owners don’t have a college education just a remarkable talent for the business they are in. No one but maybe a paid clerk likes paper work. The Fair Tax would cause many of them to go out of business and the more that happens the more we’ll have to rely on the big corporations. We don’t want that.

          • No tax man

            DJ: Wrong, wrong, wrong…..businesses ALREADY collect taxes, it would just be higher. AND, all that year-end tax bs would be GONE!!
            GET YOUR FACTS STRAIGHT!! As it is now, all the income taxes for all the producers, growers, manufacturers, etc is ALREADY in the price of products and services….THOSE COSTS WOULD BE GONE WITH THE FAIR TAX!!

          • Dan az

            First, the FairTax plan would repeal all federal taxes based on income and completely close the Internal Revenue Service. It eliminates the following federal taxes: income tax, gift tax, capital gains tax, estate tax, alternative minimum tax, payroll tax and Medicare tax, to name a few. Further, the FairTax plan would implement a prebate system wherein a basic level of consumption, including food, clothing and shelter, are not taxed.

        • Carole Howell

          Lee sounds good to me, also we would all have fewer files kept on us. And even the criminal elements would have to pay taxes Huh? so there would be more money collected in the long run.

          If we did not have to pay taxes on used goods, yes, many of us would benefit in a big way. There would be no tax loop holes and the big guys to live here and keep their profits off shore would be paying also. So many of the filthy rich get out of paying taxes altogether.

          When a guy who makes 85,000 a year and pays more in taxes than Google or Exxon Mobile, something is very wrong.

        • Henryptnm

          Lee: You said buying a new car a person will pay only Fair Tax on it and selling used, no tax. Correction: If Fair Tax is enacted, a person buying a new car will pay Fair Tax plus any state sales tax. When selling used, only a state sales tax. Fair Tax does not eliminate any state sales taxes. It will be added on. Dan az: You said Fair Tax will not food,clothes and shelter. Correction: Fair Tax WILL TAX food, clothes and shelter. Information: Fair Tax Fraud-Laurence Vance-Mises Daily website: also The Book, the Crook and the Followers- Fair Tax Fraud plus Fair Tax’s own website.

          • Lee

            Here is what I found regarding food and clothing, on the FairTax page.

            How does the prebate work?

            All valid Social Security cardholders who are U.S. residents receive a monthly prebate equivalent to the FairTax paid on essential goods and services, also known as the poverty level expenditures. The prebate is paid in advance, in equal installments each month. The size of the prebate is determined by the Department of Health & Human Services’ poverty level guideline multiplied by the tax rate. This is a well-accepted, long-used poverty-level calculation that includes food, clothing, shelter, transportation, medical care, etc. See chart in Figure 1 below. (The chart didn’t copy and paste.)

            Back to FAQ Index

            Why not just exempt food and medicine from the tax? Wouldn’t that be fair and simple?

            Exempting items by category is neither fair nor simple. Respected economists have shown that the wealthy spend much more on unprepared food, clothing, housing, and medical care than do the poor. Exempting these goods, as many state sales taxes do, actually gives the wealthy a disproportionate benefit. Also, today these purchases are not exempted from federal taxation. The purchase of food, clothing, and medical services is made from after-income-tax and after-payroll-tax dollars, while their purchase price hides the cost of corporate taxes and private sector compliance costs.

            Finally, exempting one product or service, but not another, opens the door to the army of lobbyists and special interest groups that plague and distort our taxation system today. Those who have the money will send lobbyists to Washington to obtain special tax breaks in their own self-interest. This process causes unfair and inefficient distortions in our economy and must be stopped.

            Sounds to me like they are looking out for the ‘little guy’ all the way in this FairTax thing.

            From all that I am reading about the FairTax, it is fair. I cannot honestly say I know about the states, and how that works, but I’m still in the learning process, as well.

        • William

          Well, if talk about taxes – It doesn’t matter for individual how taxes that he pays is called – income, property, sales or whatever.
          Important – AMOUNT of taxes that he pays. And country wide who pays more and who pays less. For government require certain amount of money to function. And there is always a balance between quality of government services and total taxes.
          Problem is that our Tax law is above size of British Encyclopedia.
          And it gives to mach loop holes for wealthiest to escape their part of taxes. So some simplification is required. Issue with criminal Federal Reserve system and International Bankers who own it is completely different – they just use government and IRS to rub us.

          • Lee

            The problem here is just what you wrote: “For government require certain amount of money to function. And there is always a balance between quality of government SERVICES and total taxes.” There are way too many government services, and government waste. The more people rely on the government to do what they should be doing, the more power the government gains. We are already slaves to Big Government, which is NOT what our forefathers had in mind! FairTax sets us free, regardless of State sales taxes, which we already pay, on top of the massive Federal confiscations. And, let me tell you something that we already know. When you take money from one group and give it to another, the people making the money will just go away, and we’ll all be poor, which is what the government wants. Poke a fork in us, we’re done.

        • BUD’s reply to the FairTax SCHEME

          I’d suggest you get some glasses and re read (if you read it in the first place) what i said . . . Savings (that includes the equity in your home) that has already beem taxed and decimated by the income tax would be taxed again a second time by the fair tax SCHEME

        • Henryptnm

          Lee: Fair Tax does NOT eliminate any state sales tax. Fair Tax does NOT eliminate any state income tax. Fair Tax does NOT eliminate gas tax (Fed. or state). When buying new car (Fair Tax and any state sales tax). Used car (just any state sales tax). Taxes to be eliminated with Fair Tax: Federal income tax, payroll tax, corporate tax, capital gains tax, self-employment tax,gift tax and inheritance tax. Source of information: Fair Tax Act of 2005. Lee, quit making false statements.

      • MR MYTH

        Bud, If what you say is true, I have to agree.

        • Dan az

          Mr Myth
          The FairTax does not make a judgment about the size of the federal government, or how it should spend the people’s money. The FairTax is just about a better way to collect the money needed to run the federal government that is more transparent, more efficient, more conducive to economic growth, and, yes, even fairer to all.

          • Patriot1776

            We cannot even talk about a “fair tax” until the 16th amendment is REPEALED! If we don’t completely abolish the income tax then a fair tax will be added to the income tax!

          • Lee

            It’s nice to see that SOMEONE gets it. Thank you!

          • Lee

            My last comment was directed at Dan az

        • BUD

          Mr Myth
          The FairTax SCHEME is an attempt by Neil boortz/Simpson (as in Homer Simpson) and John Linder to replace the income tax with a 30% sales tax (23% covert equals 30% overt) The way the FairTax SCHEME is described is deceptive/offensive in itself.

          One of the difficulties with this SCHEME is that it double taxes the savings of anyone who has savings on which they have already paid income taxes. bootz/simpson (as in homer Simpson) states in his first book on page 176 that savings will not be treated as fairly as new earnings (read between the lines and it means double taxed) boortz/Simpson (as in Homer Simpson) offers no solution to this double taxation. but does basically say to the retiree spending his pretaxed savings “Tough $hit, you will just have to suffer for the benefit of the others.” (Income/asset redistribution) Allowances are made (white Paper from the FairTax SCHEME websight) for insurance payouts and annuities because they were bought with pretax money but authors refuse to give the same consideration for savings (neither in stock, banks or home equity etc) that is not protected by an annuity or insurance policy. (rational ? ? ?) insurance executives were instrumental in writing the legislation.

          boortz/simpson(as in Homer Simpson) touts that prices will be reduced by 23% by eliminating the embedded taxes now included in the prices . . . . but the things most of us buy . . . the TV, Computer, CD recorder. come from china [no embedded taxes we can remover] wranglers from Mexico,[again no embedded taxes] beef from South America, lamb from Australia, shirts from Sri Lanka . . . . . and the list goes on of things YOU and I buy that have NO EMBEDDED taxes to be removed . . . . therefore we will pay the current price PLUS the 30% TAX imposed by the FairTax SCHEME on the vast majority of things we buy.

        • Lee

          But, it’s NOT true. There would BE NO income tax! Savings are yours! You would only pay tax on goods and services! Maybe I’m just stupid, but if there would be no income tax, how could they tax your savings??? There would no longer be an IRS!

          • Henryptnm

            Lee: No IRS? According to Fair Tax Act of 2005, there shall be in the Department of the Treasury, a Sales Tax Bureau ( IRS under another name).

          • BUD’s Savings Are ALREADY taxed

            Savings, home equity and other acquired asets have already been taxed by the current income tax. are already taxed by the current income tax. New savings, if it is posssible to accumulate any, will not be subject to the FairTax SCHEME until spent but OLD SAVINGS taxed by the income taxed sysem wil be taxed a second time when spent. New savings will have the illusion of far greater value than they actually have. For instance today $30000 will buy you a imported Car but under the FairTax SCHEME the same car would cost $39000 dollars because there are NO EMBEDDED taxes imposed by our government to remove. Buy American you say? Competition with foreign markets is what improves the US product.

    • Landon St. peter

      Fed Up Gal,
      Please take a look at this analysis of the Fair tax before you push it. It’s not a fair tax, does nothing to address the real proplem of too much spending by government (indeed, one of the bragging points is that it’s ‘revenue neutral’), leaves repeal of the 16th Ammendment up in the air, does NOT eliminate the IRS (just changes the name), and includes provisions that allow Congress to RAISE the rates whenever they see a need to. There are many other deficiencies with this legislation, and more than enough blathering by it’s supporters. The one person whom you might suspect would be a fan of this bill is noticeably absent: Rep. Ron Paul, the taxpayers only friend in Congress, has NOT supported this bill. Regards,

      • Carole Howell

        Landon St. Peter,

        What is your suggestion?

      • Dan az

        Advantages of Flat Tax
        The aim of implementing a flat tax regimen is to make people pay a single tax rate. This would encourage people to pay taxes as there would be no differences in the rates applicable. Today, an individual earning more pays more and if the taxing system is changed to flat tax, it would encourage individuals to be more productive. A point to note here, exemptions are provided for people whose income is lower than a certain limit.

        All forms of double taxation are removed if a flat tax system is followed. Taxes on dividends and capital gains are removed as they are incomes which after being taxed are again taxed. If these are removed, it would encourage people to invest thereby creating more jobs. Read more on self employment tax deductions.

      • Henryptnm

        I noticed you read Laurence Vance’s statement on Fair Tax: Read: There is no such thing as a Fair Tax-Laurence Vance: This statement really tells what the Fair Tax is and who are the people behind it. I urge everyone to read this statement before deciding to go behind the Fair Tax.

  • Robin from Arcadia, IN

    We need to contact our representatives and continue to hound them about abolishing the IRS and auditing the FED. If any tax is imposed, it should be the Fair Tax. We will have a better chance of pushing this agenda through right now than in the past couple of years. The government has grown into “Fedzilla” as coined by Ted Nugent. It is time to reign in Fedzilla!

    • BUD

      The FairTax is not a fair tax ! ! ! More properly titled is Should be Called a FairTax SCHEME designed to redistribute the wealth from those who have earned and accumulated savings to those who are to lazy to earn their own way. The FairTax SCHEME double taxes the savings of those who have already paid an income tax on thier savings when they earned the savings. Savings, home equity and other resources aquired over a lifetime of work should be exempt from this double taxation just like insurance and annuities are exempt.

      • Dan az

        Here is the difference between fair tax and flat tax:

      • Dan az

        As you can see the fair tax is heads above the flat tax.So your post is moot!

        • BUD

          Dan az HORSE PUCKY

          Your article presents a false situation and then tears it down with falicious arguments.

          It’s HORSE PUCKY.

          The argument against the FairTax SCHEME is just as valid as ever. The SCHEME would continue to permit those who are avoiding the tax now to continue to avoid it in the future. John Kerry-Heinz is a Prime example of tax avoidance. Kerry-Heinz left the country to buy a yacht built in another country to avoid the taxes imposed by our government. In the 70′s congress in its infinite wisdom put a heavy tax on luxury items like yachts. The yacht builders could not compete on the world market with this tax so they packed up and left the country (just like Wranglers left Oklahoma for Mexico) The yacht buyers like rich John Kerry-Heinz followed the builders and bought their yachts tax free OFFSHORE. So the US lost the jobs and taxes the jobs would generate and the taxes that the sales of yachts would generate. I can envision Fairtax free areas on indian reservations just like tobacco stores and FairTax free ships waiting offshore to sell clothing or anything else to buyers who wish to avoid a 30% covert sales tax on thier purchases. The rich can afford to go off shore to buy the things they want and avoid confiscatory taxes. It is only the working stiff trying to get by who ends up paying the taxes. Black markets will appear everywhere. 30% added profit will provide enough inducement for many people (including myself)to seek other than legal sources for their needs or desires.

    • Carlucci

      There is no such thing as a “Fair Tax”. The federal income tax is exactly as described in the article. If you are wondering what supports infrastructure of the nation, it is duty, import, and excise taxes. An example would be the taxes that are included in a tank of gas for your car.

      We don’t need any more taxation! Go to this link and watch this documentary: and you will understand why.

    • Strawberry Shortcake

      Audit the Fed? ABOLISH the Fed. Along with the “public” school system.

      • Bitter Libertarian

        Bravo! I agree Completely!

      • 45caliber

        Auditing the Fed will give reasons to abolish it. For one thing it is almost certain that the Rothchilds (who own the FedRes) are making far more money than we know. This is then shipped to Europe where they use it to “buy” and “sell” currency from other countries. That is what they make they wealth doing – and they do it with free money from the US.

        • JRC

          Envy of others just because they have money and make more money using legal ways is a ugly thing to have. Get of your lazy butt and acquire your own wealth.

          • A thought

            I would love to get off my lazy butt…. The only thing is I am putting in 5 applications a day and still not finding any work….

          • JC

            You don’t know anything at all about the Rothschilds do you JRC?
            They are theives and have been from the first nickel they stole.
            Being able to buy laws with stolen money and making further crimes legal is not justice. And we intend that America should return to a system of justice.

    • oldtimeyman

      If we abolish the Fed the de-fund the IRS we MIGHT get some control of our Republic.

      • hflashman

        There won’t be a Republic to gain control back if what you8 suggest occurs.

        • DeJay

          So we should let the same old,same old continue??? When progression is bad we have to do something. Doanything but do somwthing. If what we have is bad and the something we do is bad, we can’t be much worse off. There will always be the chance of what we do will be better since we have some bad experiences to be guided by. Nature is dynamic. Stagnancy is counter productive. Let’s make an attempt to get out of the stagnancy rut.

        • Vicki

          Why would the Republic go away if the Fed and IRS did?

          • hflashman

            Oh I dunno Vicki…perhaps the complete collapse of our monetary system may have something to do with it. What do you think? Everything would be hunky dory?

            Look…reality is…one must have taxes and revenues to the central government. Every civilization has had taxation. I’d love for someone to name one which hadn’t.

            As to the Fed…abolishing the Fed is to abolish our monetary system…i.e. economic chaos unsurpassed in our history. Period. And i for one don’t cotton to that idea. Sort of tends to put a damper on the day when you wake up and everything is in utter ruin …

            Reformation of the Fed is another matter. Restructuring the ownershp and control is another matter. Reorganizing the membership and/or pupeteers of the Fed is yet a third idea to bat around. But abolishing it/ Only fools and idiots would support such a drastic option as we know it would rip the base of our economy to shreds.

          • Vicki

            Lots of supposition on your part there HFlashman. Lets try it and see if you are right. I am betting that we will do just fine with a hard money solution that removes both the Fed and IRS. I offer as proof that Both of which we did fine without for over 100 years.

          • hflashman

            Well gee Vicki…if you look at it that way…I offer as proof we don’t need to keep the military modernized. It’s shown that a good calvary charge will roll a flank of infantry up like a sleeping bag. What the heck…it worked in the 19th century…so why modernize our military today?

            Same thought process. Criminey …

          • Vicki

            One free clue for HFlashman:

            On second thought HF don’t read it. There is a section with a graph that proves the lie to your assertion above.

            hflashman says:
            December 20, 2010 at 2:08 pm

            …….but here…how about 1790-1800. I believe the US was a hard currency market then.

            The astute reader will notice that I offered the CPI not “inflation” Since HFlashman like most liberals never bother to define their terms I simply chose CPI to compare his assertion and found it to be false.

          • hflashman

            Vicki…nice try. Didn’t work, but nice try. I stated “inflation”, not CPI. that’s #1 in refuting your statements. Next, I used the infaltion data to belie JCs statement that hard currency capitalist economies don’t have inflation. Our system has always had inflation…is a necessary compenent of the capitalist system.

            That graph looks interestng..however, it’s a ‘gee whiz’ graph. Go to a legitimate site and take a gander at the stats year by year. You’ll note that in war..and we have been in a few in the 20th centry…a few big ones if you need a history lesson…CPI and inflation does increase more than the usual trend. You’ll also note that CPI increases as we became a developed nation, standards of living increased dramtaically, and we matured into our empire. Finally…break it down year by year and you will note two interesting facts. A GOP administration has higher inflation AND more rapid increases in CPI that a Democratic admin. term

            Which goes to show using hard facts. The lies the GOP wants you to believe. That they take care of the working man and Middle Class. They don’t.

            And your data..broken down a bit to be more accurate.

            Now..about those econ courses you missed in grade school …

          • Vicki

            HFlashman. Proof by bald assertion != proof. Come back when you have some facts to back up your assertion. It will be more fun to poke holes in that.

      • Granny Mae

        My take on this is to stop spending what you don’t have. Everybody has their hand out from banks to auto company’s to illegal immigrants to welfare recipients that have never done ahything but draw welfare ! Every country in the world has a hand out for our money and every state in this union also has a hand out. If you can’t live within your means then you will have to fail and who ever is afiliated with you will have to fail also. Head honcho’s responsible for not correcting corporate or municipal problems need to go to jail. Insted they blame the guy before them and don’t want to loose votes or loose their own pocket money so they just keep trying to dance around the problem. Let me tell you here and now, if California goes in the crapper then she will just have to back up the drain and spill over till all the crap is gone and then start living within her means ! All this constant trying to please every one is over ! It can’t be done ! Start securring the boarders and deporting all illegals on government assistance no matter what. There is always a sob story that everyone can tell to make people feel sorry for you but the reality is all of us have a story ! All of us could make a case for why we should get assistance or help with one thing or another. The problem comes in when these people never get off assistance !!!! If you are going to help someone it should only be temporary. No longer than one year at the most ! Why should I pay taxes to educate mexicans or any illegal in California when I can’t afford to give a higher education to my own children ? My kids are just as smart if not smarter than welfare immigrants and they can’t afford to go to college. I don’t live in California or New York or anyplace else except my own state and I have enough trouble making the politicians in this state conform to sane thinking let alone some state clear across the country. I don’t want Californias problems and I don’t want to have to solve them ! Each state is responsible for the running of that state and it is time they did just that ! We keep giving more and more of that responsibility to the federal government and then wonder why we got the problems we have ! All these rediculous ear marks are a way to get the federal government to give money to the sate requesting them and shore up the permanent position of the politician from that state. They are not requesting the money because that state needs it so bad and can’t afford to put out the money for said project ! It is a way for the politician to secure his job with his state by saying “see what I got for you?” and by assuring the party he belongs to or the president, that they can count on his vote as long as they give him what he wants ! It really has nothing to do with you and me ! Every time I hear someone say there should be a law about that or the government should do something about such and such I want to smack them ! Everyone says that ! Then those same people turn right around and complain when just such a thing happens ! If all our states set up their own budget and lived within that budget and the federal government got out of the states business and took care of their own budget, things in this country would begin to turn around for the better ! I could go on but the dinner bell is ringing so I’m out of here !

        • MashedTaters

          Could not have said it better. I hate “they should do …” also. Oh, well.

      • Another Voice

        You won’t get jack by abolishing the Federal Reserve, the IRS and/or the entire US government. It would be you against Exxon Mobile, Halliburton, etc., – and who do you think is gonna win that fight?

    • Carole Howell


      Part of that growth is because they want to rule the entire world, that costs a lot of money. Plus the Homeland Security deal to watch us all in everything we do, costs a bundle and we operated fine w/o it, maybe even better. Judging what happened with Katrina.

      • Granny Mae

        You said it all Carole ! We don’t need all the government intrusion in our lives !

  • sean murrey

    this govenment smacks of socialism.

    • jim

      ole barry and his lib dem cronies ARE Socialists, Destroying OUR Great country DAILY! IMPEACH NOW, flood your Congress with emails or letters NOW!!

      • Another Voice

        That’s interesting! The far left are calling ‘Ole Barry’ a Republican! LMAO!

        • American Citizen

          A tiger doesn’t change its stripes, Ole Barry is just playing along because of the last election. He knows his number is up.

          • Granny Mae

            YEP ! He is playing people like a fiddle ! How quickly they forget !

      • JRC

        And the GOP is any different? This country has been steered toward socialism since WW-II independent who was the ruling party. NOTHING will change, it does NOT mater if Obama will win re-election or not.
        Anyone who believes otherwise needs to see a professional and fast, you are having delusions.

        • Al Sieber

          JRC, you need to see a Proctologist, you got your head so far up you’re a$$.

        • Dennis

          JRC that/this post is the TRUTH. Our country just put the repubs back in control of 1 branch. They/We will probably do more of the same in 2012. Both parties are responsible for this mess. There is not any difference between them when it comes to serving the people. They ONLY serve the elite.

        • hflashman

          Dennis…you got exactly what you asked for. Does your hero, Reagan, still look as pristine as you look back at what he brought us? Does the recent SCOTUS ruling allowing foreign monies to flow undisclosed make you cheery and happy/ Does the fact that money rules the roost make youhappy?

          Because that is EXACTLY what you supported. You got what you asked for. Quit yer bitchin’ … you should be cheering.

    • DeJay

      This government not only smacks of socialism but is also our enemy. They are out to destroy us so isn’t it accepted that we defend ourselves by fighting fire with fire and try to destroy them??

    • patricia

      How about far left Extremism? That’s what Progressives are…in Canada they are known as the Extremes. Granny is correct. He is “playing us like a Stradivarius”.

  • Dan

    The only method of fundamentally shifting power away from the federal government and back to the people is to demand Congress pass The Fair Tax Act(H.R.25/S.296). The Fair Tax will replace all federal income taxes with a national sales tax and abolish the IRS. No more tax form means no more profiling and therefore far less control over the people. Only then will we return to the limited government principles our founding fathers instilled in the Constitution.

    • Bruce D.

      I agree with that. The income tax forces you into a compelled relationship with government. One in which they are over you. It maximizes government power and minimizes individual sovereignty.

      • old white guy

        bruce d. the individual has lost any control he ever had over his or her life. taxes are just one part of the control. please list for me the things that you can do that do not have the stamp of government on it. i for one can think of nothing and that is bloody sad.

        • Bruce D.

          Fish on the shoreline of the ocean in Florida. I think that is one thing you still do not need a license for.

          • Granny Mae

            Sorry but you are wrong ! I hope you don’t get caught doing that !

          • Bruce D.

            Sorry Granny Mae you are wrong.

            You do not need a saltwater fishing license if…

            • You are a resident fishing in saltwater from land or from a structure fixed to the land.

            Read more:

        • oldtimeyman

          About 200 years ago, Daniel Boone shouldered a musket, took a bag of pemmican to eat, conquered a wilderness and helped establish a nation.

          His descendants of today have to get government permission to put a roof on their shed.

          • eddie47d

            That is fine and dandy but he also took land that didn’t belong to him. We seem to forget that.

      • coal miner


        “The hardest thing in the world to understand is the income tax.” Albert Einstein

    • BUD

      The FairTax is not a fair tax ! ! ! More properly titled is Should be Called a FairTax SCHEME designed to redistribute the wealth from those who have earned and accumulated savings to those who are to lazy to earn their own way. The FairTax SCHEME double taxes the savings of those who have already paid an income tax on thier savings when they earned the savings. Savings, home equity and other resources aquired over a lifetime of work should be exempt from this double taxation just like insurance and annuities are exempt. look at the white paper on annuities from the FairTax SCHEME webpage

      • Bruce D.

        The idea is to repeal the Income Tax and you would not be doubled taxed. You would only be taxed once on things you bought rather than a tax penalizing those who try to succeed through hard work.

        • BUD

          IF you have already paid an income tax on your savings, your house equity and other assets then taxing the monies again as they are spent is DOUBLE TAXATION.

      • http://none Mike

        Bud, Repeating your talking point over and over does not make your point any more valid. Remove your head from the 4th point of contact.And actually read about what your downing. Insted of BAAA-BAAA _BAA Mike L.

        • BUD

          Mike pull your head out and read this if you are capable.

          A FairTaxSM White Paper

          The FairTax treatment of insurance

          The primary purpose of insurance is to mitigate risk, either on property or people. While life and annuity insurance products have some tax benefits under the current tax system, the FairTax either continues these benefits or improves them.

          Under the current system, the entire premium is paid with after-tax dollars. Only the “insurance” component of the premium is taxed dollars under the FairTax.

          Under the current system, insurance cash values grow tax deferred. They grow tax free under the FairTax.

          Under the current system, cash values are taxed upon withdrawal. They are withdrawn tax free under the FairTax.

          Under the current system, benefits received are tax free today (if the premium was taxed). They are paid tax free under the FairTax.


          Under the current system, benefits received are tax free because the premiums were taxed and taxing the benefit would be considered double taxation. Under the FairTax, the benefit received is also tax free, but the proceeds are taxed as spent. Section 206 of the FairTax legislation (HR 25) provides a credit to prepay these taxes. The insurance credit increases the benefit paid out by the tax rate, thereby avoiding double-taxation (see examples that follow).

          Under the FairTax, the costs to deliver insurance products to consumers drop as the embedded corporate income tax, employer payroll taxes, and compliance costs are removed. Consumers receive their whole paychecks as a result, ending income tax and payroll tax withholding. This means pre-tax premiums are lower and the insured have more money in their pockets with which to pay them.

          Boston University economist Dr. Laurence Kotlikoff estimates the shift to consumption taxation raises the stock of U.S. capital by at least 29 percent (potentially by as much as 49 percent) and U.S. living standards by at least seven percent and potentially by as much as 14 percent.1 With a robust economy and more Americans at work the need for insurance and the ability to buy it will increase, providing tremendous growth for the insurance industry.

          1 Kotlikoff, Laurence J., “Replacing the U.S. Federal Tax System with a Retail Sales Tax: Macroeconomic and Distributional Impacts,” December, 1996. The FairTax treatment of insurance © 2007 Americans For Fair Taxation. All rights reserved. Page 2 of 6

          The simplest way to understand the treatment of insurance under the FairTax is to compare it to the current system. When purchased for business purposes under the FairTax, both the premiums and the consumption of the benefit are treated as tax-free business inputs. Therefore, the following comparisons address insurance purchased for personal use.

          Property/casualty insurance

          Today, there are no tax benefits for purchasing property and casualty insurance (unless as a business, where it is deductible as a business expense). Like other services, the tax system embeds its cost in the price of the premiums. Under the FairTax, P&C carriers’ costs are reduced substantially as the income tax, payroll tax, and compliance costs are removed from pricing. This reduction will likely be passed forward to consumers and consumers will have more income in their pockets to pay premiums.

          The premium is subject to the FairTax if sold to a consumer. The benefit is received tax free and includes a credit to prepay taxes that are due when consumed. For example, if the consumer had storm damage to his house and received a $5,000 check to get his roof repaired, he would be entitled to an insurance credit of $1,494 to pay the FairTax when he spent the $5,000 on the roof repairs. Insurance purchased for business purposes is not taxed, e.g., to insure a place of business, business equipment, etc.

          Life insurance

          Term life insurance is usually preferred for short-term needs (less than 20 years) and creates no cash value. Whole life, universal life, and variable life insurance generate cash values and are usually preferred for long-term insurance needs. The FairTax does nothing to change the relative value of each. From a tax perspective, the FairTax treats both term and cash value life insurance as well as or better than the current system does.


          • Current system – The entire premium is paid with after-tax dollars, whether term or cash value.

          • FairTax – Only the “term” component of a premium is taxed. The “investment” component of the premium being invested in a cash value policy will not be taxed under the FairTax.

          Cash value (if any):

          • Current system – Cash values grow tax deferred, and when withdrawn the cash value comes out on a “principal first” basis. Any amount above the principal is taxed as ordinary income.

          • FairTax – Neither the principal nor the interest is taxed while accumulated or when withdrawn. They only become taxable if the owner chooses to use them to purchase new goods or services. Those goods then purchased should be less expensive due to the removal of embedded taxes.

          The FairTax treatment of insurance © 2007 Americans For Fair Taxation. All rights reserved. Page 3 of 6

          Death benefit:

          • Current system – A death benefit is income tax free, but subject to estate taxes unless held in an irrevocable trust and certain rules are followed.

          • FairTax – The death benefit is tax free and the beneficiary receives a credit equal to 23 percent of the benefit to prepay any sales taxes due when spent. No estate taxes are due.

          For example, under the current system a person purchasing a $500,000 term policy system for $50 a month does so with after-tax dollars. Assuming this individual is in the 25 percent marginal income tax bracket (and including employee payroll taxes of 7.65 percent), he/she would need to earn $74 to have the $50 necessary after taxes to pay the premium. Since taxes were paid on the premium, at their death the death benefit would be received income tax free (but possibly subject to the estate tax).

          Under the FairTax, if that individual earns that same $74, all of it is available to pay the premium. For the same $500,000 term policy, the $50 premium now costs $65 ($50 plus $15 in taxes) and possibly less as the insurance company passes on any savings from the removal of embedded taxes and compliance costs. This leaves them with at least an additional $9 in their pocket to use as necessary or to increase their insurance. For example, a 50 year old male could purchase a $500,000 ten-year level premium term policy for $49.38. Paying a monthly premium of $59 would purchase just over $612,000, an increase in coverage of $120,000 extra insurance – a 22 percent increase.

          The FairTax is on consumption, not income, so of course there is no tax on the death benefit when it is received. However, because the death benefit is taxed when used to buy retail goods and services, the FairTax provides a credit equal to the FairTax rate times the death benefit. Since the premium payments are taxed, the credit prevents double taxation by prepaying the tax.


          Under current law, annuities can be sold as qualified plans (IRAs, 401 (k)s, etc.) or non-qualified. Today deposits/premiums to non-qualified annuities are made with after-tax dollars. Cash values grow tax deferred. Withdrawals are taxed as ordinary income, and if withdrawn before age 59 1/2 a 10-percent penalty applies. The early withdrawal penalty applies whether it is qualified or not.

          Annuities are one of the few non-qualified investments you can buy where growth is tax deferred. Insurance companies feel this gives them a competitive advantage. The downside is that gains are taxed as ordinary income when withdrawn, while a more traditional non-qualified investment such as a mutual fund would receive more favorable capital gains treatment, at least in part.

          Annuities also have higher costs than other investments. These extra costs are for administration and protection benefits. These benefits can be in the form of a guaranteed minimum death benefit or living benefits. Typically, this base charge costs 1.5 percent of the annuity’s value each year, which offsets any benefits of tax deferral unless the guarantees are The FairTax treatment of insurance © 2007 Americans For Fair Taxation. All rights reserved. Page 4 of 6

          2 The monthly prebate check is calculated by multiplying the FairTax rate times the annual poverty level spending which is published annually by the Department of Health and Human Services and divided by twelve. Poverty level spending represents what it costs families of varying household size and composition to buy their necessities. The annual poverty level spending amount is based on the Department of Health and Human Services poverty guidelines plus an additional amount to eliminate the marriage penalty.

          important to the client. The charge can be higher if enhanced death and living guarantees are added.

          Since there is no tax difference between an annuity and other investments bought as part of a qualified retirement plan (deposits to both are usually deductible), cash values grow tax deferred and withdrawals are taxed as ordinary income. The comparison here will only consider non-qualified annuities.


          • Current system – The premium is paid with after-tax dollars and is not deductible.

          • FairTax – In the case of annuity premiums, the FairTax treats them as it does all other forms of investment and does not tax them, i.e., premiums are purchased with pre-tax dollars. The consumer also has increased take-home pay to invest. Any service charges associated with the annuity (typically 1.5 percent) are taxed, but these costs will be lower due to the removal of embedded income/payroll taxes in the cost of doing business.

          Cash value:

          • Current system – Accumulations are tax deferred. When withdrawn, cash values are taxed as ordinary income. This is generally at the highest tax bracket based on the consumer’s income. If these withdrawals are made prior to age 59 1/2, there is also a 10 percent federal penalty.

          • FairTax – Accumulations are tax free. Withdrawals are also tax free. Pre-tax prices of goods and services purchased with the proceeds should be less expensive due to the removal of embedded costs and the consumer will have greater disposable income to make those purchases.

          Death benefit:

          • Current system – At death, any gains in cash value are not eligible for a “step-up” in basis and are taxed as ordinary income to the beneficiaries. This includes the value of any “benefits” added to the annuity that result in additional gains above the cost basis.

          • FairTax – None of the proceeds are taxed at death.

          Health insurance

          As a preamble to the discussion of how the FairTax affects health insurance, it is important to note that the FairTax taxes the retail purchase of all goods and services, including health care services. While permitting no exemptions, the FairTax benefits Americans through a monthly universal prebate2 which ensures that each family unit can consume tax free at or beyond the The FairTax treatment of insurance © 2007 Americans For Fair Taxation. All rights reserved. Page 5 of 6

          poverty level, with the overall effect of making the FairTax progressive in application. Under the FairTax, all Americans consume what they see as their necessities of life free of tax.

          This approach is more efficient than trying to exempt certain categories of goods and services and much less subject to lobbying for special treatment.

          • Current system – Premiums for health insurance are treated differently, depending on who purchases the insurance. If you purchase insurance as an individual, it is paid for with after-tax dollars and is generally not deductible. If your employer or the government buys insurance on your behalf, the premiums are deductible for the company and are not taxable to you. If you are paying part of the premium for insurance through your employer, the premium is not deductible unless your employer establishes a Section 125 Plan, in which case your portion is paid for with pre-tax dollars, thus reducing your future Social Security benefit. Your cost for services and medicine above what the insurance company pays is paid for with after-tax dollars unless you use an itemized tax return, in which case you can only deduct those expenses exceeding 7.5 percent of your adjusted gross income.

          According to the American Association of Physicians and Surgeons, the greatest problem in the health care industry affecting costs is the lack of a “natural market.” Because of the tax preferences in the income tax code, almost all health care is purchased by employers and the government. This removes flexibility, control, and cost awareness from the ultimate consumer, increasing usage and costs for everyone.

          • FairTax – The general premise of the FairTax is to tax every new good or service one time. So when you purchase health insurance, your premiums are taxed, but the charges billed to the insurance company by the doctor are not taxed. (Taxing both premiums and benefit payments would result in double taxation.) If the insurance benefit is paid directly to you, it includes the insurance credit to prepay any taxes due as the benefit is spent.

          If you purchase health care services directly from the doctor (co-pays, deductibles) the charges are taxable. Of course, as noted above, the doctor’s cost of doing business is significantly reduced, thereby allowing for lower pre-tax charges.

          From the doctor’s perspective, the FairTax removes the cost of payroll taxes, income taxes, self-employment taxes, the cost of administering income tax withholding and payroll tax deductions for his/her employees, and personal income tax, payroll tax, and compliance costs. The doctor has to collect the FairTax only on direct payments for services by patients, and remit the taxes collected on a monthly or quarterly basis depending on volume. He/she retains one-quarter of 1 percent of the amount collected for their efforts.

          It makes no difference whether a company or an individual purchases the health insurance; the treatment is the same. This helps to create a natural market for health insurance and restore competition.

          The FairTax treatment of insurance © 2007 Americans For Fair Taxation. All rights reserved. Page 6 of 6

          To sum up, the benefits of the FairTax to the insurance industry and consumers:

          1. The pre-tax cost of insurance should drop as embedded taxes and compliance costs are removed.

          2. The average American takes home their whole paycheck.

          3. Only the risk component of cash value life insurance is taxed.

          4. Cash values of both annuities and life insurance contracts grow and can be withdrawn tax free.

          5. A credit insures that all insurance benefits are consumed tax free.

          6. Death benefits are both income and estate tax free and include a credit to insure they aren’t taxed when spent.

          7. Health insurance benefits are tax free.

          8. Natural markets are restored to the purchase of health insurance, helping to control and even lower future health care costs.

          What is the FairTax Plan?

          The FairTax Plan is a comprehensive proposal that replaces all federal income and payroll based taxes with an integrated approach including a progressive national retail sales tax, a prebate to ensure no American pays federal taxes on spending up to the poverty level, dollar-for-dollar federal revenue replacement, and, through companion legislation, the repeal of the 16th Amendment. This nonpartisan legislation (HR 25/S 1025) abolishes all federal personal and corporate income taxes, gift, estate, capital gains, alternative minimum, Social Security, Medicare, and self-employment taxes and replaces them with one simple, visible, federal retail sales tax – administered primarily by existing state sales tax authorities. The IRS is disbanded and defunded. The FairTax taxes us only on what we choose to spend on new goods or services, not on what we earn. The FairTax is a fair, efficient, transparent, and intelligent solution to the frustration and inequity of our current tax system.

          What is Americans For Fair Taxation (

 is a nonprofit, nonpartisan, grassroots organization solely dedicated to replacing the current tax system. The organization has hundreds of thousands of members and volunteers nationwide. Its plan supports sound economic research, education of citizens and community leaders, and grassroots mobilization efforts. For more information visit the Web page: or call 1-800-FAIRTAX.

          • http://none Mike

            Bud, So your solution is what. A flat tax. Sorry but anything that does not elimenate the 16th amendment and the IRS is going to be subject to manipulation.You can preach against the fair tax all day long and still at the end of the day we continue to be robbed by this system of our livelyhoods.They will still continue to collect these taxes at the point of a gun with threats of imprisonment. But I will tend to agree to disagree with you on this because you have bought the retoric on both sides of the isle as to why they should continue to be able to rob you. And make you like it. Republican’s and Democrats alike continue to want the power of punishment and reward through our current tax system. Untill you wake up to that fact there can be no progress. And our econamy will continue to fail vs. the rest of the world. Mike L.

          • Mike 5 solutions to the double taxation

            Any time someone questions or castigates the FairTax SCHEME s/he is told to “read the book” and treated as if they are too stupid to understand this”infallible” SCHEME.

            At the risk of offending (if possible) the FairTax SCHEME zealots who are either not intelligent enough or too naive to challenge the inconsistencies and loopholes of the FairTax SCHEME, I will post a few of the problems that I, as a layman, have found with the SCHEME. Possibly the zealots themselves are too blinded by self interests to admit the fallacies and weaknesses of the SCHEME. I will point out some of the more obvious problems with the FairTax SCHEME. Before opening your to mouth trying refute my statements I would suggest you read “the worthless book” . . . . and reread . . . . and reread until you BEGIN to understand it. Remember this SCHEME is a THEORY, never before tried anywhere, there are many unexplored and undisclosed intricacies to this SCHEME. When you have questions of your own you will know that you BEGIN to understand the SCHEME and its implications. Any one who can read this THEORY of taxation and not have serious questions is not playing with a full deck.

            The law as written has so many intentional or unintentional, ambiguous, incorrect assumptions and outright lies that boortz/Simpson(as in Homer) has had to write a book explaining the proposed law then write a second book explaining the impreciseness of the act and his first book and now has written a third book attempting to explain the second book. Here’s a hint for boortz/Simpson, if you tell the truth the first time you don’t have to keep trying to explain a lie. If you still have questions after reading and rereading the third book by boortz/Simpson don’t be dismayed he will soon write a fourth book explaining book 1, 2, and 3 because he is still trying to cover the lies and deceptions of the proposed act and the first three books.

            One critic of the SCHEME wrote:

            “One other huge complaint that I have with this law is the quality of it’s composition. It is, by far, the poorest written piece of legislation that I have ever seen, As I pointed out last night in one exchange when discussing the taxability of insurance payouts, one section implies that they are not taxable as long as the taxes were paid on the premiums and another referenced section implies that they are taxable. It is written such that a regulator can pretty much interpret most of it any way they want. This has to have been done intentionally.”

            One SCHEME zealot response was “The legislation was written by two tax attorneys who realize that God-willing, life insurance policies “mature” long after they’re written. Contracts can span decades. If the premium isn’t taxed, then the payout should be. If the premium has been taxed, thereby reducing the amount of death benefit purchased, then the payout shouldn’t be.”

            Shouldn’t this same logic be applied to savings? If the savings was taxed by the income tax system then it should be exempt from the point of sale boortz/Simpson tax.

            boortz/Simpson in his first attempt at an explaination of the of the tax on page 169 of “the (worthless) book” under the Chapter titled “Questions and Objections”. The question was to the effect that the individual was living on retirement income on which he had previously paid taxes and why should he have to pay yet another round of taxes on that income as he spent it during his retirement.

            The answer from boortz/Simpson was that, unfortunately they (retirees) were not getting “as good a deal” as current workers. That retired people fell in the same category as anyone who had saved money previously and was now ready to spend it. He said that there was nothing they could do to alleviate the fact that you were going to pay taxes on income that was already ravaged by taxes, but you would benefit from the (non existent) 22% reduction in prices and the pre-bate.

            If exemptions can be made for insurance benefits why can they not be made for savings?

            The answer is simple, there are $70 trillion dollars in retirement savings of one kind or another in this country a 23-40% tax on this amount is $16 to 28 trillion dollars that the tax and spenders see as a jump start on their SCHEME. When that is gone they will be looking for some other thrifty person or group to raid to continue their spendthrift ideas. A good example is the SS fund. Here was a large accumulation of savings. LBJs Great Society stole the SS reserve fund and look where that has left the SS system.

            **FairTax is a misnomer National Consumption tax would be more descriptive**

            The name is a complete misnomer it does NOT represent the proposal. Mountain Rose said “Pick a descriptive name, instead of choosing one that sounds suspiciously like they are trying to put lipstick on a pig.”

            Poor people usually have to spend all of their income on daily living expenses. At the end of the month they have nothing left over to save. They would pay the 23-40% tax on their entire income exclusive of the **preBAIT** sums. Compare this to rich people who only have to spend a small

            percentage of their income on living expenses. This means that lower income people will be paying taxes on 100% of their income while the rich would only be paying taxes on a fraction of their income. A flat tax of 10-15% would tax rich and poor alike rather than tax the poor at 23-40% and the rich at a much lower rate . . . .. possibly even at 5-8% or less.

            **The preBAIT is just that . . . BAIT**

            All purchases of new items under the SCHEME will be taxed. The **preBAIT is just that, it is a BAIT** to try to buy the support of those on the dole to get a larger portion of your earned income. Since everything new is taxed all that means necessities are also taxed. To pacify those on the dole the SCHEME promises to preBAIT the taxes on all purchases up to the poverty level.

            The preBAIT is based on the poverty level declared by the government. If the government declares that $24,000 per year is the poverty level for your size family you will get a preBAIT of $7200 per year payable in monthly payments of $600. (based on a 30% exclusive tax)

            There are several problems with this proposal. First, if the government decides it wants more of your money to keep, it will freeze the official poverty level, thereby effectively raising the taxes on everyone. Second, the WIC (women, infants and children) program bases its benefits on 185% of the poverty level. That tells me that the poverty level does not cover the basics needed to sustain. Third. $7200. THATS BIG BAIT. IT’s also your money.

            **Black market argument** assumes an unending supply of goods will be available to supply said ‘Black Market.’ Where or where are they going to come from?”

            Over the Internet, obviously. Products purchased from websites located in Canada, Mexico, and elsewhere.

            Example: Just two months ago, I logged onto and purchased an item from a private seller in Australia. Go ahead, tell me how you would collect the FairTax on it!!!

            What the FairTax a huge does is create incentive for retailers to set up shop in foreign countries and sell their products via Internet websites to Americans.

            You don’t think that will happen? The Internet porn industry is already a multibillion dollar worldwide industry. All of which is illegal, and underground. The FBI is engaged in a constant game of “whack-a-mole” trying to shut down child porn sites, which spring up in another country as soon as they get shut down in one country.

            And that’s what will happen with the FairTax. You’ll be sending Government agents all over the world to demand that those foreign websites pay the FairTax whenever they sell to American consumers. Good luck with that.

            **Death Tax**

            Another deception perpetrated by boortz/Simpson is the claim that it will eliminate the “death” tax. The following is a statement from a estate planning attorney . . . . “The federal government imposes an estate tax on all citizens and residents of the United States. It imposes no inheritance

            tax. Every estate gets an estate tax deduction for all property received by the deceased’s spouse, as well as a $2 million standard exemption for all other property. Thus, many middle class Americans will owe no federal estate tax.”

            **That’s a $4,000,000 exemption **for a married couple. Few of us has assets beyond $4,000,000. That means for all practical purposes **there is no Death tax for most of the middle class.** boortz /Simpson tax is going to eliminate something that is not there to begin with. BRAVO . . . With proper estate planning there will be NO estate tax for any inheritance of any size. Stop to think once . . . . How much tax has t kennedy paid on the 100s of millions he inherited over the years.

            But the **FairTax SCHEME will impose a 23-40% tax** on any thing spent from this estate as opposed to no tax now. In other words the FairTax SCHEME imposes a tax on Death it does not eliminate it for most of us.

            **Real Estate Avoidance**

            The FairTax SCHEME imposes a 23-40% tax on new construction sold for owner occupancy. There is no tax on used real estate or on new construction intended for investment. BOY talk about loopholes . . . . where do you start.

            Situation 1: Lets say Tom and Jim are brothers and they both want to purchase a new home for $200,000 plus the FairTax SCHEME tax of $60,000 to $80,000. The taxes put the home out of

            reach of both of them. But being enterprising young men they decide they will use the investment loophole. Tom will buy the house Jim desires and rent it to Jim for 30% less than the payments on the house. Jim in turn will buy the house that Tom desires and rent it to Tom for 30% less than the payments on the house. Because the houses will be used as an investment they do not have to pay the Huge 23-40% boortz/Simpson tax. After a period of 5 years both Tom and Jim can show that the house is being rented at a loss and can divest themselves of a poor investment. Tom sells the house that Jim is living in to Jim as a used house and Jim does not pay any tax on it. Jim sells the house Tom is living in to Tom as a used house and Jim does not pay any tax on it. It is necessary to pay 30% less in rent than the payment on the house because this convoluted boortz/Simpson tax hits the renters with a 30% tax on the rent.

            Situation 2: Larry wants to obtain a mountain retreat. He purchases a 400 sq ft summer cabin in the mountains and since it is used he pays no taxes on it. Then he proceeds to remodel the cabin to suit his desires and ends up with a McMansion with all sorts of amenities. Don’t laugh it was done in the mid 60′s in Santa Cruz, Ca. Look up what happened in Santa Cruz County when they gave the 18 year old the vote. Prices of tool sheds and chickencoops skyrocketed when building permits were limited or denied, existing buildings were worth thier weight in gold.

            Situation 3: Jack is a developer, he has a model house, he uses the same model house for 20 years and decides to sell it. Is it a used house? It has 20 years of wear and tear. Or must he collect the 23-40% boortz/Simpson tax on this 20yr old relic that needs remodeling and refurbishing?

            Situation 4: Barry wants to build a McEdwards size house. He purchases 10 acres No boortz/Simpson tax (all land is used) and build a very modest 2 bedroom home on the land and pays taxes on the New home. He moves in or rents it out for a short time. He then proceeds to remodel the home to his desired 40,000 foot McEdwards home with no more taxes.

            Many more examples of avoiding the boortz /Simpson tax could be cited but they would only prove the same thing . . . . there are big holes in the original FairTax SCHEME.


            That brings up another discrepancy in the boortz/Simpson tax.

            From pg 169 of The FairTax Book: “the items you purchase with your already taxed retirement savings will be about 22% less expensive than they were before the FairTax.”

            One of bootz/Simpson tax selling points is that when the FairTax SCHEME is passed the 22% embedded tax will be removed and prices will come down 22% so that when the boortz/Simpson tax is added the price will remain about the same. Confusing ain’t it.

            Once you are confused the deception comes in. The 22% embedded tax is an average, it is not 22% on everything and therefore the 22% embedded tax cannot be removed from everything. In reality the embedded tax can only be removed from those items which have an embedded tax and then only to the extent that the embedded tax is reflected in the final price of the object. A $10000 piece of jewelry with an imbedded tax of 50% will have the price reduced to $5000 and when sold it will have the SCHEME tax of 23% added to make the final price $6150. Sounds good so far.

            But I buy very little expensive jewelry. Like many of you I buy mostly from WalMart, Sears, Target, Kmart, Albertsons, A&P and local stores because they are the only ones who have what I use most. If you look at the items in these stores, the TVs, the Stereos, the kitchen appliances, mostly are imported. NO embedded tax. Likewise the food we eat. Much of the beef comes from Brazil, Australia, Canada, the lamb from New Zealand the produce from SA or Mexico. None of these imported items have embedded taxes that can be removed by the SCHEME, Therefore the $500 TV from Japan will cost $500 plus the SCHEME tax of 23% or $650.

            The luxury jewelry buyer gets a price reduction of 38.5% and the TV buyer has a price increase of 23%. That’s fair in boortz/Simpson speak.

            **Averaging is the currency of Socialism.**

            So what you are saying is, if hard goods has an imbedded tax of 70% and Food has an imbedded tax of 10% the guy who buys a Cadillac with a 70% imbedded tax gets a 70% reduction in the price of his Cadillac while the guy who is trying to stretch his dollar on necessities only gets a 10% break in the price of the reduction of goods?

            Lets see $100 worth of food gets a 10% price reduction due to removal of imbedded taxes. That makes the food cost $90. Then a 23% FairTax SCHEME tax of $20.07 is added. That makes the $100 worth of food now cost $110.07, according to my 7th grade math. Explain to me how that an advantage ?? ? ? ?

            Next, the buyer of the item with a 70% imbedded tax gets a price reduction of 70% making the price of his $10000 piece of jewelry or clothing or Cadillac a real bargain at $3000. Add a FairTax SCHEME tax/Homer Simpson Tax of 23% brings the total cost to $3690.

            I can’t really grasp the fairness of adding 10.7% to the food cost and reducing the cost of luxuries 271% . . . . . . . . Averaging . . . DOH

            **This FairTax SCHEME will be an auditors nightmare.**

            The retailer will have to be constantly audited to be sure s/he is not selling things without the tax. The retailer/wholesaler will have to be constantly audited to be sure his products are going for consumption or resale. Someone brought up the example of the production of steel products. Where do you add the tax. The iron ore that miner brings up is most certainly new. Is it taxed at this point? It goes to the smelter. Is it taxed at this point? As pig iron it can go to the steel manufacturer or to the foundry to be cast into finished or raw castings. Is it taxed at this point? The raw castings are then sent to a finisher for further manufacturing or maybe to a hobby shop . Is it taxed at this point?

            **Pimps and Drugs**

            There are two problems with this theory. First: Right now the pimp or drug dealer has to launder the ill gotten gains in some manner and this frequently is where the leads come from to actually apprehend the pimp or unlicensed pharmacist. With the boortz/Simpson tax there is no accounting for any sums that you might be spending or how you obtained them.

            pimps and drug dealers are avoiding the law now it will not be any challenge to avoid a simple tax law.

            Rich avoidance

            Rich have tax avoidance methods not available to the plebeian

            Those that think the FairTax SCHEME is fair are living in LaLa land. There are so many ways that the rich can avoid the tax is not even debatable. All you have to do is go back a very short time in history.

            In the early 70′s congress in its infinite wisdom decided the rich were not paying thier fair share of taxes on yachts so they put a luxury tax on them. Result: yacht buyers went offshore to buy yachts. Many yacht builders went out of business, those that stayed established offshore sales which avoided the confiscatory taxes, others moved out of the country altogether. The tax was finally repealed after the country lost many of the businesses overseas. They still have not returned.

            Then there is the true example of buying a Mercedes in the Early 50′s. Because of the very high import tariffs on cars, You could go to the local Mercedes dealer and buy a car to take delivery in Europe. You paid the dealer who arranged for a car to be delivered to you from the factory with left hand drive. You then vacationed in Europe driving the car for two weeks at prepaid hotels, returned the car to the dealer who then prepared it for export to the US. Since it was now a used car any tariff on it was very low. This could all be done for the same price as a car delivered to

            you in the US new from a dealer. There is no reason the rich would not do the same thing with a 30% consumption tax. 30% on a $60000 car is $18000 . . . That would finance a nice European vacation.

            I also have visions of floating malls (converted ocean liners) off the coast of the country with big neon signs saying TAX FREE ZONE. If Europeans can come here to do their shopping because of the difference in the value of the dollar think what the wealthy would do for a 30% discount, they would do all their personal shopping outside the country. Those without easy access to the offshore floating malls could go to tax free indian reservations. (The precedent has been set with tobacco)

            A SCHEME zealot responded “The legislation was written by two tax attorneys who realize that God-willing, life insurance policies “mature” long after they’re written. Contracts can span decades. If the premium isn’t taxed, then the payout should be. If the premium has been taxed, thereby reducing the amount of death benefit purchased, then the payout shouldn’t be.”

            Shouldn’t this same logic be applied to savings? If the savings was taxed by the income tax system then it should be exempt from the point of sale boortz/Simpson tax.

            boortz/Simpson in his first attempt at an explanation of the of the tax on page 169 of “the (worthless) book” under the Chapter titled “Questions and Objections”. The question was to the effect that the individual was living on retirement income on which he had previously paid taxes and why should he have to pay yet another round of taxes on that income as he spent it during his retirement.

            The answer from boortz/Simpson was that, unfortunately they (retirees) were not getting “as good a deal” as current workers. That retired people fell in the same category as anyone who had saved money previously and was now ready to spend it. He said that there was nothing they could do to alleviate the fact that you were going to pay taxes on income that was already ravaged by taxes, but you would benefit from the (non existent) 22% reduction in prices and the pre-bate.

            If exemptions can be written into the act for insurance benefits why cannot the same exemptions be made for savings?

            I have five possible solutions to end the double taxation dilemma. .. . . ..

            One alternative could be: Phase out the income tax. . . Make the consumption tax optional. The Fair Tax Scheme would be mandatory for anyone born/starting employment after the date of inception. Anyone else who has ever filed a tax return has the option of continuing with the income tax option, or switching to the sales tax option, but you can never switch from sales tax option to income tax option.

            People who continued paying income taxes would have to have some form of ID that could be used at point-of-sale to exempt them from the sales tax.

            A second alternative could be: An asset debit tax card. Conduct an audit of all a savers assets, it can easily be done. It is currently done upon the death of the taxpayer to calculate the estate death taxes. For most people it would take: a year end bank statement, an investment statement, an county assessors statement and lenders statements. The total of the assets, minus the debts, is then credited to an asset debit card and given to the taxpayer, When a purchase is made the taxpayer pays for the sale and in lieu of the sales tax, gives the clerk the asset debit card and the amount of the sale is deducted from the payers asset total. When the asset total on the tax debit card reaches zero the buyer then pays the normal sales tax. Any asset appreciation from the date of the inception audit would be subject to the so called “Fair Tax Scheme” . . . .. . . . .

            A third suggestion is to make all people over 68 exempt from the FairTax SCHEME..

            A fourth suggestion, just have the government donate a 30% bonus to each and every savings account or investment of any kind. That should be easy to do, right?

            A fifth suggestion the person spending any savings of any kind will just report it to the Government and his monthly **stipend will be increased by 30% of the savings spent**.

            Social Security DeJa VU

            Here’s where the repeat of the Social Security fund raid by LBJ comes in.

            FairTax SCHEME 15

            There are $70 trillion dollars in tax paid retirement savings of one kind or another in this country a 23-40% tax on this amount is $16 to 28 trillion dollars that the tax and spenders see as a jump start on their SCHEME. When that is gone they will be looking for some other thrifty person or group to raid to continue their spendthrift ideas. A good example is the SS fund. Here was a large accumulation of savings. LBJs Great Society stole the SS reserve fund and look where that has left the SS system.

            Remember when you made payments on your house you did it with after tax money. Any savings you have in your home (equity) will be subject to the boortz/Simpson tax when the home is sold and you elect to spend the money.

            Another question, what do retail stores do with inventory that was purchased prior to the Fair Tax? Do I get a refund from Uncle Sam for $1 million I have in inventory? Or do I go out of business paying the tax twice ,once to the manufacturer and again to the government? I know, its only a transitional thing, and eventually, many manufacturers will (might) pass along whatever savings that they get by not paying fed corp taxes, but what am I to do until then?? Old Whig

            Much retirement savings being spent today was earned prior to any tax shelters for savings. Tax was paid on it and it was earned at a different rate.

    • 45caliber

      Dan: I can’t really go along with that. If they kept the tax at about 5-8%, no problem – but I’ve heard that if this goes through, they are looking at AT LEAST a 25% sales tax – in addition to the normal 8% or so state sales tax. That would mean that we’d be paying basically a 25% tax on all income since most people spends their income instead of saving. And, considering that they also want a sales tax on all stocks, etc. the ONLY way you could save without paying that sales tax would be to either put the money in a bank account (which they now want to tax) or under your mattress.

      Further, I don’t really want to go buy something and not have any idea of what the total price will be before I get to the register. And I don’t want to carry along a calculator to determine what it might be. Further, I don’t like the idea of it being on food since that is one of the larger cost items. And rent. And on medical bills. Etc….

      • Vicki

        And remember that “saved” money in the bank or mattress will loose its value (and therefor your wealth). Buying hard assets would be TAXED so they get their piece of your wealth one way or another.

        For all of you yelling fair tax and telling us that we don’t have a solution please stop yelling and go to and get with a campaign that WILL work. These campaigns include several that Ron Paul supports or has introduced.

        Oh and joining the libertarian party would help :)

    • Landon St. Peter

      The ‘Fair Tax’ WILL NOT replace any part of the income tax, because it will NOT repeal the 16th Ammendment. What it will do is ADD a 23% sales tax to evert transaction you make, on top of the income tax that’s already there. But that point aside, the major deficiency on this bill is that it does nothing to address the root problem, SPENDING! I personally do not care if I am mugged by a perp with a custom made, competion ready Les Bauer 1911 Model, or the cheapest Sat Night Special around, my pocket is just as empty. It’s not the tax system, it’s the spending.

      • Granny Mae

        Correct !

        Amendment XVI

        The Congress shall have the power to lay and collect taxes on incomes, from whatever source derived, without appointment among the several States, and without regard to any census or enumeration !

    • DeJay

      Damn, when will you Fair Tax get it thru your thivk heads that the Fair Tax will make things worse. We need to abolish the income tax and we can do this by helping Ron and Rand Paul get the Fed audited and the power to print and coin money in the hands of Congress.

      • Vicki
      • Vicki
      • Another Voice

        Do you REALLY want the congress to have the power to PRINT MONEY??? LMAO! That would be their solution to everything. Soon a six-pack of Bud would cost $100,000.

        • http://none Mike

          If at some point you could even buy it. Once the free money printing starts it will never end and the people will be right back to the situation we are in now. Fiat currancies are allways devalued. Inflation sets in to compensate for the devalued dollar. In a controlled system this will occur 100% of the time. Mike L.

        • Vicki

          Another Voice says:
          “Do you REALLY want the congress to have the power to PRINT MONEY??? LMAO! That would be their solution to everything. Soon a six-pack of Bud would cost $100,000.”

          Lets see. Government print money to get out of debt. Hmmmm. Too late.
          Or were you depending on a PRIVATE corporation to protect you from government spending?

          Had you been paying any attention to what we have asked for you would have noticed that we want to ELIMINATE fiat money and return to the Federal Government the power to COIN money. I would be ok with the Government also printing certificates redeemable in coin of the realm.
          (Gold, silver, copper, nickel etc)

  • Al Sieber

    Some of our ancestors left Europe to get away from the British and their taxes, our forefathers finally declared war against England and their tyranny. it seems we are taxed more now then they were, and more tyranny, more laws, rules, regulations, cops, law enforcement, more lost rights….

    • Joyce from Loris

      You are right, Al Sieber… the problem is this… Americans are NOT the same type of people who stood up against England. Americans have become soft, sitting at home watching Oprah, waiting for their welfare checks to arrive. Even the working class people have become so compliant, they only have enough nerve to sit and complain about what the government does, occasionally calling for others to contact their elected officials and vote. American people have been beaten down, called every far fetched name in the book, that they are afraid to stand up to the government. If the men of America today, were the same type of men of America in the late 1700′s, Our government officials would have already been tossed out on their ears. Today, the men just complain, that’s all.

      • Al Sieber

        Joyce, you’re right, do you know how hard it is for me to find someone to work for me? these kids, and men are lazy today they don’t want to work, so where the hell do they get their money?

        • Joyce from Loris

          Al, they get it from YOU AND ME, in the form of checks from the government. What I hate is this… we are the ones who RAISED these young people, yet they get far more influence from the schools, who teach them that EVERYONE IS SUPPOSE TO BE EQUAL. Then when these kids come home, they try to teach their parents. Well, the parents fall for it. As far as the “men”, there just aren’t many of those left. I never thought that I would see the day that a man would rather sit on his butt and wait for a handout. My dad and grand daddy would have literally DIED before they took a handout.

        • JRC

          I don’t have problems finding people, but then I pay a fair and comparable wage centered on the industrial average. I offer benefits, sick time and vacation, I do not blame people for not wanting to work for modern slave holders that think that paying minimum wage is more then anyone should make and don’t offer benefits.

          • Al Sieber

            JRC, I pay $15 a hour, get your own insurance, sick days? you really better be sick. any one who works for me is a private contractor.

        • Gene Husky

          The government has made these young people lazy.I had a hard time finding people to work.I had several that wanted to set on me just to get paid.They kept screeming eduacation.If you get all this ed,you will not have to work hard.Push a button and the money flows.We all know that eduacation is great if you have the ambition to use it.I had programmers working for me because there was not a demand for them.Nothing is as easy as they think.Look around.There is more work for the laborer with basic eduacation then anything else.The unemployment line is crouided with degrees.I am not saying we don’t need eduation.I am saying that ethics is not a major.Morals and work ethics should be incorporated in every degree.The person that won the typing contest and spelling bee usually can’t frame a house or put in the plumbing.Dig the ditches pave the roads cut the trees lay the bricks plant the corn drive the combine work on the cars drive the trucks clean gutters.None of these things have a degree,but they should..Just my openion…Thanks Gene

          • MashedTaters

            Very true. Education has become just another buzz word. I cannot and have not been able to get them to work and make some money for me since the mid 1990′s.

      • Bruce D.

        There are still good men and woman today in the same fashion of our founding fathers. Many post on this site and many are in the Tea Party. We have taken our heritage for granted for too long and forgot who we are. We are in a revival period right now. It is important we do not let the country be overrun by illegals and legal entries who come here for social services. They do not understand individual sovereignty and are willing to trade their liberty for health care and social service.

        • Joyce from Loris

          But Bruce, we are TOO LATE. The country is ALREADY run over by illegal aliens and Legal Immigrants. Look at Dearborn, Michigan. There are more muslims there than Americans! They actually have the “call for prayer” through intercom systems in the city! And that is just one more example. How do the “men and women” of today come together? I am part of the tea party movement, but all we have accomplished is voting in more politicians that have nothing but their own power in mind. Look at Scott Brown!! I could not believe that I actually supported this candidate, and look what he has done to us!

          • Bruce D.

            That point can be easily made but it is not over until we stop trying. Scott Brown is from a liberal welfare state and it is not likely anything good will ever come out of Massachusetts. On the other hand the new Tea Party candidates have not even taken office yet so it would be premature to label the Tea Party movement a failure. The fight for liberty has been going on since the beginning of time. There is nothing that is going to change that. The biggest fight is for the hearts and minds of the next generation. Liberals are hard at work poisoning their minds in the public school system. It is an effective approach to challenge Republicans in the primary who disappoint and work at the local level to take back control of the school system. The fight for freedom is mostly for them anyway. If it is not in their heart it doesn’t really matter what we do.

          • Kate8

            Joyce – Another part of the problem is that we no longer gather together to discuss what to do. Or rarely do.

            Instead, we blog. While blogging is great, and allows us to share our views, we are no real force like we would be if we actually knew one another and could assemble.

            We’ve largely been isolated, and that hurts us. We need townhall meetings, called for amongst ourselves. We need to assemble and exert influence from the local level up.

            We have become so diverse in our own neighborhoods that we can’t even discuss the important stuff. Heck, I can’t even discuss it with family and friends. No one wants to hear.

            Unless we can find a way to unite, like more teaparties more often, we are just an assortment of meaningless voices.

          • hflashman

            Joyce…nice try, but a fialure to twist facts to suit the rant. I looked up Dearborn. 30% Arbab, many are of lebenese Christian descent. It has a large religious following of Islam, but a) it is nowhere near a majority (in fact, 53% of the population identify themselves as members of specific Christian sects, another 20% identify themselves as “christians” of no denomination); b) there is no such ‘call’ on any intercom system. THAT is such a made up fabrication…any thinking person would realize it violates sepearation of church and state as well as it’s pure idiocy.

            Jeesh…get real.

      • Castaway

        Joyce how true it is. Just like you say they would be tossed out on their ears, or shot in the belly and left to die.

        • Bruce D.

          If I am not mistaken the majority of Americans did not want war with Great Britain and most did not fight in the war. What really pissed off those that did was the British march to Lexington and Concord to confiscate guns and ammunition. That was their breaking point.

      • Dr. Mabuse

        Most of the “soft” Americans sit at home and watch Hannity and Beck.
        They nod their “soft” heads in agreement with any bit of (mis) (dis) information that comes across the TV screen. The men that you so desperately long for are either dead or in prison. Anyone with the gumption to buck the system is immediately designated as a “Hostile and summarily neutered, oops I meant neutralized.
        If the men of the 1770′s had flouride and elevated levels of estrogen in their water supply, been brainwashed from birth by hours of programming on TV, they would be just as effeminate as these dudes are today. That being said… Annie get your…oops, I mean Joyce get your gun.

      • oldtimeyman

        I am fascinated with the reality series about Sarah Palin’s Alaska. It stikes me that that show is giving some hints about self-reliance and true individual sovereignty.

        Last night they showed a 90+ year-old pioneer-type man who routinely pulls about an ounce of gold a week out of a stream and lives on the wild game he shoots. The feds have absolutely no control over him unless he sells the gold and turns it into fiat paper money. I’d be willing to bet he trades and swaps for everything he buys, such as coffee and soap.

        I know moving to Alaska is impossible for most of us, but we could all adopt the old boy’s attitude.

        • http://none Mike

          Oldtimeyman, You can still do it here in the lower 48 too. Its not allways silver and gold. Its sometimes aluminium,steel,brass and copper. You can still find these metals all over for people who just want the mess cleaned up. :) I did it for years and as soon as I get the trucks I have back up and running I am going to do it again.They have changed a few of the regulations on me so I am brushing up on that too.Mike L.

          • TIME

            Mike, a tad off topic but what new for me..

            We got the computers back up and running, we had a Trojan Horse that allowed intel out, but nothing in. How bloody crazy is that. It fried the HD’s so they are all new. Setting up the servers again was really fun, I stil can’t figure out what our computer guy is doing, let alone saying half the time.

            But he is really good at his thing, he found the bloody TH in our picture files of our pets. Now thats just down right nasty.

          • http://none Mike

            Time, I got hit myself last week. They got me with a keylogger that nortons just ignored.Burned through 2 firewalls that didnt even recognise it. I went to Kim Kammandos sight and downloaded a new cloud based one. It is supposed to stop these things before they enter your computer. Its a good read if you want to go there she stays on top of alot of these things and warned people ahead of time on most of them. I am glad you got it strightend out.And hopefully we can kill these things before they wreak havock again.Mike L.

        • JeffH

          Good lord oldtimeyman. I’m shocked that all the Palin haters didn’t jump and accuse her of being a phony outdoor girl. Ya know, helping skin the carcass of a Caribou or catching and cleaning salmon…her show just cramps all the views of the nay sayers.

        • Al Sieber

          oldtimeyman, thats how I make a living in Ariz. you can still stake a claim in most of the western U.S.. I have gold, silver, and copper property. check out the website of Gold Prospectors association of America you could join their club and go on their property and keep all the gold you find. they have property all over the U.S., even in Main.

          • http://none Mike

            Hey Al, Welcome from a fellow member. NC and Georgia have some deposits too. Me I am more into gem mineing but not too averted to finding gold. :) Mike L.

          • Al Sieber

            Mike, I don’t belong to the GPAA, I have been doing this before it was founded and knew the Founder, I do it for a living and steer newcomers into joining the club. I hunt for gemstones too, glad to run into a fellow prospector on this site. keep up the hunt.

          • http://none Mike

            Al, Its a fun pastime that sometimes pays well I was in Nc last year at a open mine and found a 600ct weight star sapphire I didnt even have cut I just polished it. It was beautiful just the way it was.I own a metal detector as well I get out and hunt for civil war artifacts I live between Ft.Louden and Signal mnt. so I do find stuff occasionally.

            Side note out there where you live is a hotbed for fossile hunting. You ever try it? Some of thoes if they are rare or uncomman are quite expensive too. Almost as much as gold in some cases.Mike L.

          • Al Sieber

            Mike, my partner had 40 acres out by the Petrified Forest, lots of fossils, plants, trees and small Dinosaurs, we found a small Dinosaur skull and fossil logs. lot of gemstones here in Ariz. fire agate, fire opal, peridot, etc. good luck hunting.

    • Jukebox

      These pseudo intellectuals want to follow the Socialist European model with a “VALUE ADDED TAX”. What a delightful phrase for something that doesn’t add any value to anything except the government coffers. It should be called a “VALUE DIMINISHED TAX” if they were honest, but that would be an oxymoron, “HONEST POLITICIAN”.

    • DeJay

      If you done your research you would know that this country was founded by the same people that now control the Federal Reserve. Yes, their agenda started long before they even thought of America.

  • Jim

    Join us and help to return the power of government to the PEOPLE instead of to the government. Please read the information we supply and if you agree then join up with us, it will benefit all of the PEOPLE. Income tax and the IRS is not needed by the PEOPLE, only by the government in order to better control the masses.

    • Al Sieber

      Jim, where do I join up?


    We’re speaking to the choir here folks. Call your congressmen and tell them to get off of their lazy A#@*! and do what they were elected to do. Until we the people scream so loud they cant stand it anymore, they will continue to lead us down the path to socialism. Do it now!

  • Jim

    Our website is http: //www.
    Come read and learn. If you agree then join us, The PEOPLE.

    • Castaway

      I just typed this address into the search engine,and it tells me it is an invalid address.

    • Castaway

      I pasted it into Google, and got the site. Thanks

      • True Born

        What is wrong with people on this “Internet?” You don’t enter an ADDRESS into GOOGLE, you enter an address in to the ADDRESS LINE! You SEARCH GOOGLE if you DON’T KNOW THE ADDRESS!! Lord, help us!! How loudly must I shout it??

        Come on folks, learn a little about the tools you are given. I see this so often in classes I teach that it just amazes & infuriates me. Thankfully I can teach those who are willing to learn and have an OPEN MIND. Those who don’t can go on doing stupid things, like paying taxes to an illegal IRS and being slaves the the illegal Federal Reserve! Look them up folks, they are both FOR PROFIT Delaware corporations – NOT THE GOVERNMENT!!

        Go read 26 usc 7701(a)(26) and 3401(c).
        3401(c) – the term “employee” includes. Probably 95% or more of “US” do not fall under the “CODE” (NOT LAW!) and as such DO NOT and HAVE NEVER OWED ANY SUCH “TAX!”

        It’s all a huge BLUFF and is followed by those who do not know any better and have been brainwashed by the PUBLIC SCHOOL SYSTEM. I revoked my “ADHESION CONTRACT” with the IRS in 1992 and since then I have not, nor will I ever again “file” any IRS form!

        Get educated and stand up for something, or you will fall for anything!!

        • Mel

          True Born, can you please point me in the direction of some good, accurate education on the illegitimacy of the IRS and how I can divorce it? Thank you.

          • steve meller

            IRS code and info:
            Pete Hendrickson
            The book “Cracking the Code”

          • j

            I will vouch for steve millers link to….Ive personally read the book few years ago, and since then have, for the first time in my entire life, correctly filled out my 1040….and also went back 3 years (stat of limitations) and corrected those already filed returns and guess what? State AND Federal have been returning 100% complete refund of every penny witheld from my paychecks every week for the whole year. But please dont believe us, see for yourself. Are we “We The People” or just a mindless herd of sheeple? Well?!?

  • http://none Charlie

    Have you ever read the Internal Revenue Code (IRC)?
    99% of the people have never gone and read the IRC and see what the written code says. The code is written because what is written is IT. The code is specific as to whom it applies. No one gets to add or delete the words that make up the code as it is written. 99% of IRS agents have never read the code either.

    Go read 26 usc 7701(a)(26) and 3401(c).
    3401(c) – the term “employee” includes and are YOU:
    (1) an officer, employee, or elected official of the United States (federal government);
    (2) an officer, employee, or elected official of any State (defined specially to mean federal state);
    (3) an officer, employee, or elected official of any political subdivision of the United States (federal government);
    (4) an officer, employee, or elected official of any political subdivision of any federal state;
    (5) an officer, employee, or elected official of the District of Columbia;
    (6) an officer, employee, or elected official of any agency of any of the above entities;
    (6) an officer, employee, or elected official of any instrumentality of any of the above entities; and,
    (7) *officers* of a corporation.
    (8) and 7701(a)(26) are you involved in the functions of public office

    Are you any of the above? YES NO

    Americans have to read the code to understand its application.

    • Bruce Eden

      Under 28 USC Section 3002 (15) the United States is defined as a “federal corporation”. 28 USC Section 3002 (10) says that the states (including local gov’ts) are divisions of the federal corporation. The IRS sues people to take their money; just like the plan for Obamacare. Except the IRS has been doing it for 85 years. Corporations cannot sue people to make them purchase something. Since the US is a federal corporation, explain to me what ARE you purchasing from them??? By the way, the IRS is NOT part of the federal gov’t. It is a private collection agency for the Federal Reserve Bank. If you look at a chart of the government agencies and departments, the IRS is not included.

      • Carlucci


      • Dr. Mabuse

        Kudos Bruce, ’cause you’re directly on point !!!!
        Here’s a quote from Caroll Quigley that kinda seals the deal:

        The powers of financial capitalism had another far reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements, arrived at in frequent private meetings and conferences. The apex of the system was the Bank for International Settlements in Basle, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the worlds’ central banks which were themselves private corporations. The growth of financial capitalism made possible a centralization of world economic control and use of this power for the direct benefit of financiers and the indirect injury of all other economic groups.

      • Daniel

        Gah!!! Bruce, you and people like you do a HUGE dis-service to people by spreading such utter, insane, asinine nonsense. It’s obvious that you didn’t bother to actually read that law. If the US were actually a corporation, then there would be no need whatsoever for (B) and (C) of (15), which you obviously overlooked. Furthermore, the opening words of Sec. 3002 make it clear that those definitions are just for that particular chapter!

        I HATE, HATE, HATE it when people go around spreading such ignorance and misinformation! Read the law itself, not some idiotic theory about “magical words” or “the special meaning of all caps” or “the government is a corporation.”—-000-.html

        • Thomas Murray

          Cornell University Law School says it all. If you don’t agree and you have proof to substantiate your claim please add to the conversation and not hurl insults don’t resort to name calling.
          Daniel, Tempers run hot in the US now, Maybe we all should just step back and really evaluate our positions, do the proper research, and act civilized.

          • Thomas Murray

            Maybe the Fair Tax would remedy the problem.. Please it before commenting.

    • Jukebox

      Al Capone died in prison because he never read the IRS code when it was only a few hundred pages.

      • Bob Wire

        yea , but Al was being naughty in many areas. They got him on what they could prove. Must like they could you or I if they really wanted to.

        Between the Fed & State, there is enough laws on the books to make every man a criminal. If nothing else, guilty of willful noncompliance.

        Hitler attacked the Jews in much the same way,by imposing laws that were impossible to comply with.

  • sirian

    It is truly amazing that the majority of the population of our country are totally ignorant to the facts pertaining to the Federal Reserve and the IRS. The Federal Reserve is a private corporation not an actual segment of the federal government. It was installed by corrupt congress members in 1913 along with pushing through the 16th Amendment even though it has been proved to have not been fully ratified by the number of states required. Ever since we have been laughingly controlled and played with. Fiat money is such a playful thing to create and ultimately use it to control millions of people. It is very interesting as to what took place concerning Executive Order 11110. Look it up folks, you too will be surprised as to what you shall find out.

    • Joyce from Loris

      Does it matter to know the truth? The Federal Government has now grow so large it is almost impossible to fight. Don’t believe me? Just don’t pay your income taxes and watch them sieve your property, garnish your wages, sieve your bank account and shut you DOWN financially. They will even put you in jail. So, whether it is legal or not, the average American taxpayer has NO RECOURSE, can’t fight them alone.

      • Dan az

        Joyce your right no one person can take them on but if the numbers were many then we would have a chance.A complete tax revolt would shut down the government.I checked out that site someone here gave and I would suggest to all here.These type of things can generate movements in the right directions If you have the resources which not all people do.But at this time we need as many people to for warn this corrupt government that not only are they going to loose their jobs but they will be starting a revolution by the WE THE PEOPLE that they should be representing not there pockets.

  • HenryfromFlorida

    I disagree with all these requests. First off they should all be orders coming from Washingtons employers. That being said, there is a section in our constitution that says, (roughly translated) if and when the government starts running not within the desires of the citizens who put them there. Then it should be abolished and a new government installed.
    We are not going to reform our government, They have entrenched themselves. We must reinstall a new government envisioned by the founding fathers. They were much, much wiser then any we have seen in the last 100 years

    • Jukebox

      The mistake that most new members of Congress make is to hire staff members that are members of the established bureaucracy.

  • Santi

    Kennedy tried to abolish the fed, but a few weeks later was killed. These rich people that run the feds and our gov. are now too powerfull to face. What in GODS name do these people want? Why do they want to be so powerfull as to rule the earth? Power and greed runs the tax system. All forms of gov. all around the earth want the power to rule us. These people will end up in HELL along with everyone that helps them. Do they not know that GOD will win at the end. They read the bible, and say that is not how it ends. Time for all the taxes to be abolished. Back in the day you did not need millions to run for office. Now it is required before you run. Candidates plead with people to send money or they will not get to hold office and give them tax breaks. Remember the tax collector in the bible, he changed because JESUS forgave him for stealing from the people. That is what our gov. is doing to us. They are playing GOD, distribute the wealth. Steal from the people that worked so hard to make it and give to the people that sit on their A$$. This estate tax is stupid. Did you all see that idiot on fox talking about it? They are dead they won’t miss the money, but the ones recieving the estate will have to sell off land pay the for the estate. That money has already been taxed, what a farce. GOD BLESS EVERYONE.

    • Jukebox

      People Like the Kennedys, Kerrys, etc. have manipulated our tax laws, and have sheltered their estates so they do not pay one penny in inheritance taxes. Also, there is nothing Federal about the Fed, it is just the largest bank in the world.

  • steve meller

    I am happy to be awake and know the Truth ~ The People have been complacent and even lazy. ~ But now those days are coming to an end. I believe that the AMERICAN SPIRIT IS ALIVE AND WELL !!
    Maybe it we be good if we were to read or re-read the history of our forefathers and understand how they possessed the character and passion that enabled them to create our freedom!
    Read Pete Hendricksons book “Cracking the Code” to find out how people are getting refunded the money that was illegally taken by the IRS! visit to find out more !!

  • http://NoWEBsite John

    IT IS TIME, no, IT IS PAST TIME for us all to start telling our State Senators and Congressmen to shut down the Fed, the IRS and the Energy Department. Taxes, if they are needed to support our Federal Government, should be collected via sales tax. Well to do people spend more; and poor people spend less. It is the only natural and fair way to impose a tax. It does not require an entire infrastructure of buildings and agents to collect this tax money. The Fed, like our Energy Department (that costs us a billion a year) serves no real productive purpose and they should both be done away with. The Energy dept was initiated by our “great” Pres Jimmy Carter. This was done to reduce and/or eliminate our dependency on Foriegn Oil. Yet Another complete democratic success…NOT! Say good byr to these section of miss-managed Government and watch the defecit go down. The opinions expressed here are probably not those of the management.

  • http://PersonalLibertyDigest DQuiney

    the fed should be abolished. it is illegal. do an article on the illegality of the fed.

  • http://NoWEBsite John

    Also, it just hit me….why on earth do we need…what 12 different Federal Law Enforcement Agencies?

    CIA, FBI, DEA, ATF, National Security Agency, Homeland Security, US Customs, Federal Trade Commission, Secret Service, Postal Inspection Service, Financial Crimes Enforcement Division (ask berni Madoff how well these people have done), Security and Exchange Commission (ask them too!) also there are a plethora of State Agencies. If all of these agencies were combined in a manner where they had interdepartmental communications and responsibilities; and were working together, instead of on their own mission with unknown duplications of effort and interfearance, would they not be stronger and nuch more productive?

    • Daniel

      John, in many cases their missions and training are completely different. A Customs agent looks for physical things, whereas somebody investigating securities fraud looks at computer entries and needs a great deal of knowledge about accounting. And generally speaking, neither one needs to be as physically fit as a street investigator or a detective.

    • MashedTaters

      True John. But, might best leave them as they are so they will fight amoungst each other. One agency might become a Gestopo, KGB, or Rev. Guard. Watcha think?

  • steve meller

    I agree that the banksters are big and powerful. So now what? Do we just give up and allow them to takeover?
    I believe things have become the way they are because we have been asleep way to long. And yes it did become pretty comfy/cozy living here in the US. The party is over and we need to get busy!
    The solution lies within each and everyone of us.Do you live in Fear or Faith? We can all take a look at our own lives. How do we think and behave in our everyday affairs? In our relationships? Are we compassionate? Do we live our lives with integrity ? We can create the world we live in starting with ourselves. Good stuff and Love are extremely contagious! Go start an epidemic !!

  • jim

    Rumi’s speech has already been blocked by ole barry’s internet police, internet policing isn’t in the future it’s NOW! Try clicking on the link to his speech, we are NO LONGER ABLE TO ACCESS IT!! Write your emails and letters TODAY!!

    • Karolyn

      I found the speech by googling the right spelling of the last name. Ruml, not Rumi as you wrote. They just might have an internal error here. Jumping to conclusions does no one any good.

  • jimmy joe

    The Ten Commandments Declares Thou Shalt Not Covet From Thy Neighbor,And Thou Shalt Not Steal.All Government Run,And Subsidized/Funded Social Redistribution Programs(Pork/Earmarks)Do Just That.Charity Is Voluntary,And Begins At Home.Because Only Those Closet To The Problem Can Know The Severity Of A Problem.And Only Through Free Will Voluntarianism Can That Problem Have True Dedication,And Full Committment,To Solve That Problem,And Will The Majority Of The Resources Go Directly To Solving The Problem.While Government Squanders Through Corrupt Bureacracies,And Slight Of Hand Buying,And Selling Of Rights,Lives,And Liberties.Between Corrupt Self-Serving,Or Weak Minded Politicians,And Their Favorite Special Interest Lobbyist.Neither Representing The Problem,Or Cause.Only Their Own Heiarchy,While They Fiddle Rome Burns”The Constitution.The Bill Of Rights,The Declaration Of Independence,We The People,And America.While They Divide The People Against Themslves.Through Their Involuntary Servitude/Slave Trade Social Redistribution Programs,And Call It Charity.The Only Thing More Dangerous,Than A Habitual Criminal,Facing The Possibility Of Being Caught By The Law.Is A Politician Facing The Possibility Of Losing Their Power,To The Truth.And The Truth Is All Government Sponsered,And Funded Social Programs,Other Than National Security Is Nothing Less Than Economic Rape,Against The Taxpayers,And Increases Poverty,And Crime.As Such.Exactly What The Politicians,And Their Special Interest Want.Total Despotism,And Division.Intentional Creation By Government To Create Chaos,And Dividing The People Against Themselves.Then When America Becomes Greece,And Or Europe.Declare Martial Law Shut Down All Communications(FCC)And Resources(BANKS)Thats Happening Now.Giving All Power To The Elitist Establishment,On All Sides Of The Political Spectrum”Judas Iscariots”By Way Of Government Fiat.Jesus Said Those Who Cut-Off My People From The Vine.It Is Them That Shall Be Cut From The Vine.Our Founders Made Clear The Intent Of Their View Of Governments Limits,And Responsibilities.”To (Provide)The National Security,And(Promote)The Commonwealth,Or Welfare Of The Citizenry.Ben Franklin Said We Have Only These Rights The Right To Life,Liberty,And The Pursuit Of Happiness.All Others Must Learn To Catch-up.All So-Called Liberal Social Programs Only Create More Poverty,Dependency,Selfishness,And Division,And Bankrupts True Voluntarianism,Independence,And Charity.Exactly What These Elitist Politicians,And Their Special Interest Lobbyist Wanted All Along.Jimmy Joe/”The Liarfryer”

    • Jukebox

      The reason the government doesn’t allow stealing is that they won’t tolerate the competition.

      • Another Voice

        Right on, Jukebox!

      • Al Sieber

        Jukebox, Ron Paul has a sign on his desk that says, “Don’t Steal The Government Hates The Competition”. good quote.

  • Helpless in NY

    Living in the state of New York, it is near impossible to contact or expect our senators to listen let alone comply with our requests. They care nothing about the fools who elected and continue to elect them.

    • TIME

      We left our North Shore Long Island home, we really loved living there, well that is other than the TAX’s and a few other things.
      So I understand how you feel!!!!!!!!!! But keep pushing..

    • JRC

      So, and how many do you believe will actually contact they’re congress person and demand action? One hundred thousand? A million? sounds like a lot? We have 300+ million people in this country, a million is 0.033%
      Its NOTHING and for most politicians not even worth loosing sleep over or be concerned about. They gain more by pocketing the 1 million given to them as a bonus to they’re next vacation by some special interest group.

      • Vicki

        I think you have 1 too many zeros there. 1,000,000 is 0.33% of 300,000,000
        ( (1/300)*100) )

      • Vicki

        Oh and 300 million+ is everyone. They only worry about the voters if at all. :)

  • JC

    A time line of the (criminal) Rothschild activities beginning with their first embezzlement in Germany

    And carrying on into the US:

    “1791: The Rothschilds through Alexander Hamilton (their agent in George Washington’s cabinet) set up a central bank in the USA called the Bank of the United States. This is established with a 20 year charter.”

    Anyone who believes our tax / banking system was structured by Americans with American interests in mind is sadly misinformed.

    • TIME

      JC, Very good post……..Thanks

      • JC

        You’re welcome Time.
        If you read it sufficiently…you will find the beginnings of the IRS/Inland Revenue et al./Central Banking and the Civil War, which was NOT about slavery. These Central Bankers are cut throats and pirates.

        Have a good one.

        • TIME


          If you look even deeper you will find that the Knights Templar were taken down by not just King Philly the Fair & the Pope, but the driving forces were the Rothschilds who wanted the banking system that the KT had set up..

          Now hows that for a wild ride.

          “The Mind is like a parachute it has to be OPEN to WORK.”

          • JC

            History has always fascinated me. And it’s because of this life long fascination and study that people like us are able to see so clearly what is going on in the US and around the world today.

          • TIME

            As per your norm, your words of Wisdom are as clear as a bell to anyone who’s eyes and minds are open and not clouded by bent Political Quick Sound Bite Spin Cycle Rhetoric created for the mass’s of ignorant MoreOFFS.

            I too have studied history as my hobby, I have also tried to find artifacts from the era’s of what I looked into as they bring History to life in 3 D.

            What I find absurd is that most people can’t grasp that they are controlled by Iconography, as well as Symbology all by way of sound bite rhetoric that seems to have won over the mass’s of MoreOFFS.
            Most of Whom have come to think they are somehow more “intellectual” by following the “Uniform Conformity” standards of utter agressive stupidity of the party line rhetoric.
            Thus explains why many who post here with closed little minds, set within tight little box’s have such twisted pretzel logic that they post and think that somehow they are enlightened.
            Hell a few of them could be standing on the sun and still it would be a dark little world as light can never penetrate their bent little minds.

            The Mind is like a Parachute, it has to be OPEN to WORK.

          • http://none Mike

            God wish there was some way for us to hook up over dinner or a fishing trip. You 2 are more intelligent than most I have spoken too in a long time. I like Vicki and Al and Angel And maby we could inclued Eddie47d He seems to have a couple of braincells left to rub together. A side point either of you been keeping up with the Anchient Aliens series? I have my own thoughts on that that need no spacemen to explain.Lets just suffice it to explain that history repeats itsself. Humans could have risen and fallen for many many hundreds of thousands of years. And we would have only left tiny footprints and artifacts behind. Anyway I just wanted to put in how much I enjoy our convesations over the last 7 months now. And lets keep trying to educate and open thoes parachutes. :) Mike L.

          • JC

            Tanks Time,

            It’s important that we keep educating people, especially young people.
            This whole Globalist / Socialist garbage must be eradicated completely from young American minds.

    • barbara

      I agree with TIME. A very good post about a subject which needs a lot more publicity. There have been a huge number of good posts. It is encouraging.

  • Scott Greene

    The Income Tax system is a psychotic legal system and only gets worse year after year after year.

    Citizens and businesses of this country spend billions of dollars a year and then spend billions of hours in attempted tax compliance. This just to figure out what they owe or don’t owe in Income taxes.

    The Income Tax code itself is almost 70,000 pages of arbitrary and contradictory laws and opinions.

    This plus at least a million more pages of Revenue Rulings, Letter Rulings, Tax Memorandums, Tax Publications, Tax, Federal and Supreme Court Opinions that are written in an effort to explain or figure out the mind numbing Income Tax laws.

    Most personal, financial and business decisions all have to take into account this Income Tax system and generally require expensive assistance from tax accountants and lawyers who all have different opinions on how to apply the the Income Tax legal code. They themselves do not understand many facets of the Income Tax code, the same way most government officials do not understand it (try calling them up and getting a consistent answer to the exact same tax question – good luck on that).

    This is no way to fund a government!

    Unless something is done to get rid of this “system” (like instituting the Fair Tax), this Income Tax scheme is going to continue to wreak havoc on the US economy and its citizens

    • Dennis

      I saw the former Treasury Sec of Bush’s on a sunday morning network show awhile back. He said we don’t collect @400 billion of taxes and we spend @300 billion trying to comply, EVERY YEAR. It’s truly a hosed up system.

    • barbara

      And the IRS is gearing up to intemidate Americans again. THAT MAY BE THE FIRST INSTITUTION WE SHOULD FIRE. They are the Government Mafia. Think about it. Waco, Ruby Ridge, Your house……

    • MashedTaters

      Great summation of the IRS system.

  • Vern Nay

    Buy guns and ammo for Christmas, revolution is the only way to save America now. We need to hang the socialists for the traitors they are. Put all the muslims in the fema camps, we are at war with islam.Their book of filth, the koran, teaches them to murder, enslave or convert everyone to islam and that is every muslims sole purpose. Then maybe homeland security and ice will do the job their supposed to do and deport all the illegal aliens.Obama should be hanged by his pencil neck till dead and it should be broadcast on public television. Bring the military home and stop policeing the world, they don’t appreciate American blood anyway. Restore the republic, revolution now…I would fire the first shot if I thought there were anyone with enough balls to stand up with me.

    • patrick H.T. paine

      Shouldn’t be too hard to find one more person to stand beside you,
      with all those 2nd ammendment solution advocates. ( here and elsewhere )

      A more important question is, who you going to fire AT?

      And what do you imagine you will achieve if you actually manage to
      hit what you are aiming at?

      • Granny Mae

        Vern Nay,

        You need to calm down before you blow a gasket !

    • JRC

      You and who? Remember, 99% of blogger and posters roaming the internet calling for a revolution are fat white cowards hiding behind the keyboard. they are playing the big though guy…after all, the internet does not care who you are so you can be anything…even the big though guy calling for a revolution. The real though guys are not on the net, they are in the military and busy doing not playing the net.
      Moreover, in today’s world its not called a revolution, its called domestic terrorism and will be dealt with accordingly. What will your AR15, Deer rifle or gasp AK47 do against military hardware? NOTHING.
      What will you do if your “”terrorist”” outfit is shot on with artillery from 15 miles away? Shoot your deer rifle into the air?
      The moment anyone crosses the line from rhetoric to action they are not any better then the Taliban who call them self freedom fighters and revolutionary…and for a lot of they’re people they are.
      Nope, you may be able to change the political direction of the US with political means if you find honest people to run for office, but the moment you cross the line you will not only lose the support of 90% of the internet though guys that will hide in mommas basement as soon as there is a government crack down because of they’re postings, you will end up either killed or in federal prison for terrorism and the end result will be that your actions will be the reason to take away even more of the peoples freedoms. Anyone taking physical action in the form of an ill advised “”revolution”” will play right into the governments hands…they will just love to use it as an excuse to pass””though new laws”” to “”protect”” the sheep.

      • B. Johnson

        You are correct. I say we keep a close eye on this new Congress & Senate. Everyone join the Tea Party. Call representatives constantly (even outside your district) on crucial legislation. Send faxes also. (However I’ve heard that one phone call equals about 50 faxes)
        If things look like we can make it through the 2012 elections, hold back on violence & go through the normal channels. Depending upon how the election turns out in 2012, and wether or not politicians are listening to the unified voice of the Tea Party, we will play it by ear from there. I would love to storm the capitol with a million patriots, but he’s right. They would only use the military against us. They are already training for “civil unrest” in the United States. If our boys won’t fire upon us, the UN will.

      • Dan az

        You remind me of the jews that let the nazis wipe them out with out a fight.Maybe you should leave before it starts.

        • Al Sieber

          Dan az, your’re right, I think jrc is a “Girly Man” and would probably just march to the camps too.

      • MashedTaters

        You are right. Unfortunatly, the military will defend the government against the people. And use whatever means are available to preserve the few who so violently want to rule. Why is the question. Why be so determined on a few issues that are very adverse in the minds of many americans. What is the need? All government action is ultimatly enforcable at the point of a gun or the substitute for the same.

    • JC

      people are not going to act against the regime with firepower.
      What they will do is “React” to anyone trying to take their guns, their property or their family away. At that point there will be a tsunami of violent reaction.
      I think that’s what it is going to take and I don’t think it’s all that far off.

    • oldtimeyman

      Vern Nay – your words should be enshrined in stone.

      Buy guns and ammo for Christmas, revolution is the only way to save America now. We need to hang the socialists for the traitors they are. Put all the muslims in the fema camps, we are at war with islam.Their book of filth, the koran, teaches them to murder, enslave or convert everyone to islam and that is every muslims sole purpose. Then maybe homeland security and ice will do the job their supposed to do and deport all the illegal aliens.Obama should be hanged by his pencil neck till dead and it should be broadcast on public television. Bring the military home and stop policeing the world, they don’t appreciate American blood anyway. Restore the republic, revolution now…I would fire the first shot if I thought there were anyone with enough balls to stand up with me.

      • JC

        “Restore the Republic”. I like that.
        It’s simple and should be on t-shirts and billboards everywhere.

    • barbara

      I know someone who visited Indonesia before the last Presidental elections, and the Indonesians were saying even then That one of theirs (Muslim) was GOING TO BE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES. A Marxist Muslim, non American, whose wife hates America. He suddenly appears on the scene,is elected, and they knew it before we did…….Think about it. Who engineered this deal….I think it was Satan and his Satan worshiping followers at the UN.

  • Another Voice

    “So-called income taxes, as defined and used by the Socialist State, lead the people into a swamp of confusion as it is designed to do. Socialism attracts corruption and corruption attracts Socialism.”

    The very same can be said for the corporatist state which we now have. Same confusion, same corruption, same attraction.

    Extreme socialism and extreme corporatism(i.e., unregulated capitalism) produce the same result: most of the country’s assets are controlled by a handful of people, the middle class disappears because of unemployment and the country goes bankrupt.

    • Vicki

      Another Voice writes:
      “Extreme socialism and extreme corporatism(i.e., unregulated capitalism) produce the same result: most of the country’s assets are controlled by a handful of people, the middle class disappears because of unemployment and the country goes bankrupt.”

      I am not sure what timeline you are from AV but in this timeline what we have is Crony Capitalism

      now lets look at the ACTUAL definition of corporatism
      “Definition of CORPORATISM
      : the organization of a society into industrial and professional corporations serving as organs of political representation and exercising control over persons and activities within their jurisdiction ”

      and Capatialism
      “: an economic system characterized by private or corporate ownership of capital goods, by investments that are determined by private decision, and by prices, production, and the distribution of goods that are determined mainly by competition in a free market”

      As you can see unrestrained capitalism does not equate nor create corporatism. Crony Capitalism could. So as you can see the common denominator between Crony Capitalism and Corporatism is Control by a few I.E. Government.

      • http://none Mike

        Vicki, Crony Capitolisim is created by Corporatism. Any time a congressman passes a favorable legislation or regulation for an individual corperation to the sole benifit of a single entity.Or allows a entity to exempt themselves from such regulation. They create an unequal playing field. Thus Bailouts for the favored and the rest could be left to die on the vine. Mike L.

  • Doug Rodrigues

    Think back about how mucn your federal taxes were last year. Divide that figure by 12 and then ask yourself if you’re getting your money’s worth from the federal government? Also ask yourself how much more money you’d have to spend if the federal government stopped inventing new “feel good” programs to waste your money on? Me?…I feel like I’ve been ripped off by people who don’t know what they’re doing and that the majority of my taxes are simply wasted! Times are getting tougher, but the greed of government keeps wanting more and more money. We have to tighten our belts to conserve, yet the government “leaders” can’t? When 2012 rolls around, it will be a repeat of 2010. There’s going to be a lot of politicians tossed out of office, mostly democrats but a few republicans too!

  • Tucson Mike

    reaching back in space 50 years ago to whine about the fed tax system is a waste of both of our time. The ballot box is the ultimate answer for the irradication of the tax and spenders. The problem really lies in the total buy-in to the 2 party system which is impossible to break away from. So get a pack of wolfs in sheeps clothing and get them all elected to start changing this idiocy. Oh wait….Tea Party?

  • LiarsMustBeDefeated

    The focus on taxes is putting everyone on the wrong road. The problem is in the SPENDING. Consult inflation DOT us.

  • Russ errett

    I think we all should sit back and try to use a little common sense. Because we have a huge tax bill, we want to lay the blame on the IRS. But where does the IRS get it’s marching orders, the congress. And where does the congress get it’s marching orders, from we the people. What are the marching orders that we the people want? It’s not just the spending what is limited by the constitution, but the over spending on welfare and subsidies which is not constitutional.
    Where do you get the money to pay your property tax, sales tax or the increased cost of goods caused by the mfg. tax? From your pay check. This is why I feel the only tax should be on income, interest and dividends. Because we are taxed at different points we do not know how large the tax bill is. (divide and conquer)

  • Bitter Libertarian

    I’m not sure what % of Taxation is Useless…But the number is high no matter how you slice it because most of it is Legalized Plunder.

    The direction we take as a people is self defeating until enough become united to have an effect.

    1- Change your W-4 and stop giving the Tax man interest free money!
    2- On March 15 when taxes are due everyone file extensions….the amount of paperwork would create problems for the IRS…
    3-Ideally…these are fellow Americans pushing the system on US..or are they? Does anyone know anyone who works for the IRS? Can we get them to self distruct somehow?
    4-Since the IRS is a Private Company….as Listed at the BBB..may I suggest filing complaints with the BBB?

    Since this is a Privately owned company and it is responsible for raping our livelyhood I believe an Audit of the IRS is in order.

    • patrick H.T. paine

      Better is to refuse to file a w-4 or cancel the one you have in effect. see 26 CFR 31.3402 (p)

      You can find this regulation online at Cornel Law Library, by
      searching for 26 USC 3402 a very long and irrelevant section
      on withholding and then clicking on the CFR link, which is
      four paragraphs long, and begins…..

      “an employer and an employee MAY enter into an agreement to withhold…”

      and ends with “this agreement is cancelable at anytime by either
      party upon written notice.

      Without a w-4 in place, no withholding of any kind takes place…
      and no w-2 is issued, no return need be filed, and no
      jurisdiction exists for the IRS to act.

      To actually put this into effect with your employer, copy and print
      the above regulation and a signed statement “canceling” any witholding
      agreement currently in place, with an effective date, and an understanding that the employer may continue to “withhold” any
      monies believed to be required by law, until the appropriate
      confirmation is received from the relevant authority.

      The relevant authority in this case, is the main office of Social Security located in the Philadelphia Office of the IRS. W-4
      with-holding, is based on the “social security” program and
      is a tax on wages, which is not and has never been regarded
      as “income”………after contact is made, your employer will
      be directed to cease with-holding and return any monies held
      from the effective date of the cancellation.

      Unlike other strategies, this one has already achieved the status
      of “precedent” in the 9th District, Court of Appeals, where the
      ‘employee’ actually was able to get the EEOC to represent him,
      while the employer relied on the erroneous advice of the “local
      IRS office”…….needless to say, that employer was left hanging
      in the wind at the appeals hearing, since the IRS failed to show.

      Now this approach is low key and non confrontational, since it
      allows the employer the time to confirm the veracity of the actual law, and directs him to the proper source of it. It is also
      win/win for both parties……since you get all your money,
      and your employer no longer has to “match” your voluntary
      ss contribitions……..

      • Bitter Libertarian

        Have you Done this?

        • patrick H.T. paine

          yes….they followed instructions, got the correct information
          from the cited source, and returned the monies withheld.

          no w-2 was received, I was just another business expense.

      • B. Johnson

        What if you are self employed?

        • patrick H.T. paine

          if that is the case, then you have several options, my first choice
          since you are not required to file any sort of return on “income”
          except that which constitutes “profit or gain” and being aware of
          this regulation, I would simply ignore everything.

          as a self employed person have you ever actually filed a w-4 as your
          own employer? Most people simply follow the instructions on their
          return which requires them to pay the taxes and the matching
          contributions required.

          if one wanted to play the game, one could register as a chapter sub s
          corp, use the strategy above as its employee, pay yourself really well
          so your corp makes very little actual profit, and file a return
          accordingly. this would make sense if you are making a lot of
          money to justify the expense…..

          still anyone can check this out, by contacting the SS admin in
          philadelphia, pretending to be an employer, and asking what to do
          about a fictious employee who has raised this issue.

      • Pete Sagi


        Since the nine learned orangutans wielding toy hammers have stated that the income tax is actually an excise tax in the famous Brushaber decision, going back to 1916 … the question is exactly what privilege is being taxed, and, exactly how is liability for the tax incurred?

        Title 26 is clear on certain instances of privilege, such as a non resident alien deriving an income from within the US, also a US citizen residing abroad with foreign earned income, which is under protection of the flag. Federal employees and officers as well as employees and officers of federally owned corporate entities such as the Post Office are liable for the tax. But where is the privilege if you are a citizen here, living in any of the now 50 united States, working at an occupation of common right in the private sector? That is NOT a taxable activity. Furthermore, the govt. has no authority whatsoever to, by force, enter into a contract between you and whoever you are working for … BUT … the federal govt. can be INVITED in. When you use a socialist slavestate number and fill out a form W-4 you do just that. You are no longer merely a worker, exchanging your labor for remuneration, but are rather an “employee” with “wages” or “salary” or “commission” which are all specifically defined legal terms in the tax codes. You are, in effect, making the federal govt. your employer, analagous to a temp agency, and you are farmed out to the private corporation that you THINK you work for. The federal govt. position is that 1) you volunteered, because use of a W-4 and a socialist slavestate number is voluntary, 2) you are protected by minimum wage laws, maternity leave requirements, OSHA regs, etc. which the govt. holds to be a “benefit” and 3) you are paying into a federal pension plan, i.e., socialistic insecurity. And don’t take my word for it, the slave enumeration bureau will admit in writing that an SSN is voluntary, their website is

        Of course, try getting a job without a socialist slavestate number. If we liken the income tax to “The Matrix” the IRS is akin to the squiddies or sentinels, the mindless search and destroy robots. It is corporate Amerika that is Agent Smith. Anyone who can sell his services as an independent can sidestep the issue by simply going thru a corporate entity that you control at arms length. This allows you to provide a corporate taxpayer ID number to anyone who believes they need one (they don’t, but why argue with these people) while the corporate entity that you are using essentially to handle your accounts receivable in turn remunerates you as a NON taxpayer with no SSN or other personal taxpayer id number, expensing out the cost of your remuneration under “other” on the corporate return.


      • http://none charlie

        what is the court case you are referencing from the 9th districe court of appeals… i would like to read and study it. thanks

  • http://outlookexpress Edwin

    If the government is going to refuse to do the job of the security of the country and remove the illegals and close our borders, the American public has no more responsibility of paying the tax that would enable them to do so. The public has the same right in disobeying law as does our government. The government is supposedly of the people, by the people and for the people. If this isn’t so, we are living in a dictatorship and the public has the right to overthrow it.

    • Bitter Libertarian

      Exactly..this is exactly where we are at Edwin the gig is up!

  • dhellew2

    The feds operate by printing paper money then using that monopoly money to pay for all their spending. This spending depletes the entire economy in part by reducing the spending power of the private sector which is the economy.

    The economy is a business made up of all private sector businesses and their employees. Government is nothing more than an expense to the economy.

  • Martin Edwards

    I sympathise with the plight of my fellow Americans. Same thing is happening in the UK. The socialised public sector is now bigger than the private sector which is taxed to support it. We are at the tipping point. I’d get on the Mayflower now to go to a new America, if I knew where it was. The fat cats in public office are all slurping at the UK and EU troughs. The Banksters who were rescued are still being awarded huge bonuses. The National debt is still mushrooming out of control. Politicians still state deficits don’t matter. If I print dollars or pounds on my home printer, this is very bad, I’m a criminal, and I go to jail. If the Central Banksters print money, this is good, and we have to applaud them. Of course, the Banksters get their massive cuts before the new money is distributed. When it hits the street, every working man and woman has had their pockets picked, but most of them have no clue it’s happened. The Banksters make Al Capone look like a tea boy. The average citizen thinks prices rise because things get more valuable. The truth is the government is in hock to the Banksters so much, it deliberately depreciates our money that we earned so the Banksters get repaid. The Unions go on strike for higher pay. No problem, print another trainload of cash. Eventually the union members will be taking their money home by the truckload like the Germans in the Weimar republic, or the Zimbabweans today. Audit the Fed. Audit the EU, and follow the money trails.

  • Larry

    If our Government would stop giving our money to every country it thinks will like us we would not have money trouble so I say stop sending our money over seas and stop trying to but governments also stop sending our jobs over seas to build nations try doing something for this country for a change. Washington is is out of control and needs to be stopped and they need it to happen now not next year it has to happen now. These other country’s would have more respect for the United States if our Government would start acting like a friend instead of trying to buy them so Washington stop acting like bully’s with these country and quite giving our dollars to people that will kill us.

    • Dan az

      Its also illegal for them to do that according to the constitution!


    Every American TAXPAYER SHOULD REVOLT and NOT pay a single dime to the FEDERAL GOVERNMENT. There are not prisons, nor personnel sufficient to arrest and incarcerate! The Mexican ILLEGALS and other assorted ILLEGALS are shinning examples of those BREAKING THE FEDERAL LAWS and not a DAMN THING is being DONE to send their ILLEGAL SELVES back to where they came, or put into prison . The American people are the “DUMBEST PEOPLE ON THE PLANET”! They are as sheep willing to be led to SLAUGHTER by CRIMINALS ELECTED to FLEECE THEM CONTINUALLY.JOE BIDEN is a clear example of a MORON IN RESIDENCE, who could not sell SERVICES OF A WOMAN OF THE EVENING IN A BROTHEL IN NEVADA! HE IS THE CLEAREST EXAMPLE OF A VILLAGE IDIOT whose VILLAGE misses him GREATLY! His ROSARY BEADS are destined for the DERRIERE of anyone who talks about his so called RELIGION!

  • Bildo

    I guess alot of people still don’t realize that we don’t have a government in America. It was buried in 1871 when a corporation called “United States was formed. This corporation went bankrupt in 1933 and was taken over by it’s creditors. It’s now a foreign owned corporation that you are subject to if you are a US CITIZEN. Become an American again and get out of the Corp US jurisdiction.
    Also look at HJR 192 and find out that you don’t pay for anything. There is no money.

  • Born in America

    Stop! The bickering won’t solve anything. American has to get back to basics and fast. All I hear in the news is another suit against someone or something, guess who is getting fat, it’s the lawyers. Get rid of the lawyers in D.C. and maybe our country will survive and return to it’s roots, “Under God”.

  • Mick

    You activist socialists on this site (likely planted by your party), are truly off your rockers! Your entire belief system is a theory. What past experience we can go on, always eventually lead to mass death of the people, and horrible corruption. The only people that have anything, after a country is socialist for a long while, are the leaders and their cronies. Deny it if you like, but you’ll still be wrong.

    The common sense people of the USA will never let this Country be thrown over into socialism, entirely. True, we have evidently been asleep for 100 years, but no longer! More are waking up to your ways. The deceit, the lies, the indoctrination of our children and teens, the takeover of the unions, which used to be good (some still are), and this list goes on.

    The USA is the ONLY political system, that has ever worked brilliantly for the people! Since the socialists began changing it, unbeknownst to the people, it has gone downhill. Now it’s come to a head! If you look into why we’re in the shape we are in, it can all be traced to socialism, progressive-ism, liberalism, and corruption. With true conservatism, there will always be less corruption, simply by the nature of conservatism. By today’s definition, our founding Fathers would be conservatives.

    Everything socialist, requires someone taking something from someone else, and you are more certain than ever, that you have the right to other people’s money & property. There are now more poor in this Country than ever, and it’s due to socialism. You will blame it on capitalism, but I would rather have NOTHING, and be a capitalist, than a socialist, as I will die free!

    Socialists… I know you are embolden right now, but trust me when I say this about what the people who believe in the American way and freedom, will do to protect this Country from socialism: YOU AINT SEEN NOTHIN YET!

    • Bitter Libertarian

      I sure hope enough good people are out there and willing to do something. I dont know exactly what it will be that will take place that brings We the people together but I believe we will soon see.

      • B. Johnson

        We’re out here and we’ll all know when it’s time.

  • Ed

    The complete article ‘Income Taxes Are Not For Income To The Federal Government’ is no longer available for viewing on this website. Apparently the Corporation has infiltrated.

  • BonnieMW

    Flash, you are the one that is misinformed. I read and listen to all the news from the left like Huffington Post to the far right like Beck. I used to just listen to the mainstream media. I finally started realizing they were the most prejudice, liars, government ran media in the world. All the mainstream media is owned my the Democrats. Who made your poll? You have to start figuring things out for yourself. It is only on these sites that are real people that you can get the truth that is why they want things closed down. The sites like this made a shocking difference in the elections. When government is as big as ours, they want to control the people. Why would they want to shut these sites down without an alternative motive? The motive is control the people. These pay-off taking politicians can see they are history with these sites operating.
    We now, with mostly democrats in office have the most muti-millionairs in office than ever before and many like Reid went in poor and is now very rich. How did that happen? He invested well?

    • B. Johnson

      That’s what I’ve been wondering. Pelosi went in with about 2 million & now is worth over 20 million. How did she do that on a 176K salary?

  • frank davidson

    found this to be very interesting… but it kept ranting on on on on on onono nononononononononononono get the point well it had no point it just kept ranting to the point that had to shut it down…. would have loved to heard the outcome but it was never there… just got plane tired… would have loved to find out how to grow the retirement income over the next short time…. wonder when he got to that part….

  • Shar

    Read “The Secrets of the Federal Reserve” on the Library of Congress Website (if it has not been expunged).

    The Federal Reserve has nothing to do with anything Federal.
    That nomenclature fools a lot of people.

    The Bilderbergers are trying to run the show.
    The Bilderbergers are trying to take over the economy of the entire world.
    The Bilderbergers are many of them, beneficiaries of the 1913 debauchery that Woodrow Wilson allowed, was groomed for, benefited from, and was insult to all of America and her future. AND that future is now with the Federal Reserve/Central Banks running this country into the proverbial financial ditch.

    THEN – We Americans can be freed from this tyranny. Shame on you!!!

    • Angel Wannabe

      Shar & anyone else interrested, check the phone book,_ The Federal Reserve is not listed in the blue pages.

  • Lyle Brunckhorst

    The link for the site on taxes is down, has it already started?

  • Geheimish Von Maahsen

    Darrell of VA, Why did you direct people to lost This site is a virus site. It is ladened with all kinds of executible applications that can harm someone’s computer!!! If you knew that this was a dangerous website (And I think you did) you are as mentally sick as hflashman. Only difference is that currently intelligent people can ignore hflashman without penalty, but if someone without extremely advanced antivirus software goes to your website, their computer will face a severe penalty.

    • Dan az

      Thanks for the heads up!

      • Alan

        Geheimish, thx for the warning. I DO have the protections and am on my way to check it out. Back later

        • Alan

          No attempts to download, or store file for later opening was detected while i was on the site. Interesting site, too.

  • Regular Joe 6655

    Income taxes & property taxes are in my lowly, ignorant, uneducated, worker bee opinion UNCONSTITUTIONAL! If I read my history(old school history)correctly, that is two of the reasons are ancestors came to AMERICA. The Judicial branch has made a mockery of our(free, legal citizens)Constution! The Constitution contains a method for our Representatives to fight for US! Can anyone say IMPEACHMENT! We need a political revolution and get these no-good,lying, deceiving, EVIL judges replaced. Any time a judge decrees his all-knowing knowledge to explain why he is right and Americans are wrong, needs to hear the Impeachment bells ring. If Congress refuses, replace them. Americans need more input in who are canidates are! In the words of William Wallace, FREEDOM!!!!

    • http://none Mike

      Joe, It seems to me we face alot of the same issues today that the colonist faced way back then. We are in a time where even though the elected officials say they represent us they truly do not. They more represent the federal goverment that they do us at this point. They feel they must make some example of us before the world. They appoint to the courts judges that will rule in their favor no matter what our constitution says about it. And if they are caught they change the language of a bill so it suits the same purpous.

      Thus the healthcare bil is born. This is a pice of legislative garbage they dont even understand but it gives them power so they dont care. I have said before that if it had been so fabulous they would have been first in line for it. Not the first to exempt themselves from it. They allowed their rich supporters buy out of it too.THIS BILL WAS ONLY MENT TO CONTROL OUR MEDICAL CHOICES.NOT IMPROVE OUR MEDICAL CARE.

      This and many other bills that have came out of our congress for the last 20 years have had no true benifit to we the people. And have only consoladated power in our fedral goverment. This equals taxation without reprensentation in my mind. Sure there are a few who feel like they are being represented but this has become an illusion.Mike L.

  • Anthony

    Ok lets look at the facts on the 16th Amendment!

    Under Article I section 9 of the Constitution it says “No Capitation, or other direct, Tax shall be laid” so how does the income tax get around this? Before you jump an say the 16th Amendment look at what the Supreme Court had to say about the 16TH Amendment.

    “The Sixteenth Amendment…..does not extend the taxing power to new or excepted subjects….
    Peck & Co. v. Lowe, 247 U.S. 165, at 172 (1918)

    What this means is the taxing power congress had before the 16th Amendment remained the same after the 16th Amendment.

    1895 the Supreme Court stated that a income tax on wages was Unconstitutional.

    So in 1895 it was Unconstitutional to tax wages an the 16th Amendment did not change anything… what makes it Constitutional today?

    • Pete Sagi

      What is the difference today regarding a tax on wages? That is an easy question, really. The difference is that we are not dealing with the dictionary definition of “wages” but rather “wages” as a specifically defined legal term within title 26, the Internal Revenue Codes. The “wages” refered to in the codes are TAXABLE wages, i.e., derived via use of a federal privilege. That means a non resident alien with US sourced income (non resident meaning here less than 180 days) or the wages of a federal “employee”. If you work at an occupation of common right in the private sector and are being taxed it is because you volunteered to be first and foremost a federal employee. You did this by filling out that 100% voluntary form known as a W-4, signed, with your socialist slavestate number. Ask yourself why it is a federal form would be required by law to enter into a contractual agreement between you and someone you would you care to work for. The answer is that it is NOT REQUIRED BY ANY LAW, though it MIGHT be corporate policy. In actual fact, it is virtually impossible to be hired without a socialist slavestate number due to policies based upon ignorance and fear.


  • James FL

    The IRS after 7 years of non-communication garnished my wages just last month.. I haven’t filed taxes and I make less than $35K yearly.

    • Anthony

      James if you seek the truth its here: See that the IRS is robbing you!

    • http://none Mike

      James, To hear some here talk you shouldent have had to pay taxes at all. But as I am sure you have realised by now thats only an illusion they would love to have perpetuated. Everyone pays taxes its only at the end of the year that what you have paid in is tabulated and the decision made as to whether you have paid enough or still owe more.

      The reason most are blind to this illusion is this. They have these taxes withheld pre tax income. This allows you to think what you take home is your actual pay. If people were paid their full amount each week and had to write the goverment a check for it each week they would be standing at their congressmans door within a month. And the congressman realises this thats why you never really know how much you pay. So untill the witholding is stopped it will continue to be a moot point. Mike L.

  • newspooner


  • (WIA) Wild Indian in Action

    To all of you. Taxation equals Slavery, you are enslaved by your own kind. When will you start the revolution? What will you do to your congressional delegations when they come back home? Meet your slave masters.

    • http://none Mike

      WIA, I sometimes wonder how diffrent our history might have been had we learned from the indians. And not just swept them aside. Seems to me the cherokee nation had a pretty good form of goverment going with tribal councils. Mike L.

  • Bob Wire

    Today , much like yesterday ~ taxes are here to stay.

    but what is different today is the speed of communication.

    This communication places a new spin on things and I do see it as empowering, for the better or worst of it.

    What we must be mindful of is the “herd’ instinct that’s common in man and people that understand it and use it for personal gain.

  • who cares

    I have come to a conclusion 10% don’t know what hell you’r talking about, The other 88% are blowing smoke up each other ass by passing Fox News crap on each other. you’r all truly cynic.

    • JC

      Why don’t you go back to eating worms in the corner?

  • Rosco1776

    We were warned! The income tax doesn’t even service the interest on the debt, so where do they get their money. Have you looked at your phone bill, elec bill etc?

    We must not let our rulers load us with perpetual debt. We must make our selection between economy and liberty or profusion and servitude. If we run into such debts as that we must be taxed in our meat in our drink, in our necessities and comforts, in our labors and in our amusements, for our callings and our creeds…our people.. must come to labor sixteen hours in the twenty-four, give earnings of fifteen of these to the government for their debts and daily expenses; and the sixteenth being insufficient to afford us bread, we must live.. We have not time to think, no means of calling the mis-managers to account, but be glad to obtain subsistence by hiring ourselves to rivet their chains on the necks of our fellow suffers. Our landholders, too…retaining indeed the title and stewardship of estates called theirs, but held really in trust for the treasury, must…be contented with penury, obscurity and exile.. private fortunes are destroyed by public as well as by private extravagance.

    This is the tendency of all human governments. A departure from principle becomes a precedent for a second; that second for a third; and so on, till the bulk of society is reduced to mere automatons of misery, to have no sensibilities left but for sinning and suffering… And the fore horse of this frightful team is public debt. Taxation follows that, and in its train wretchedness and oppression.” Thomas Jefferson

  • Pete Sagi

    Here is the famous Beardsley Ruml article from Jan 46 American Affairs.

    This article was first published in the January, 1946, issue of a periodical named American Affairs.

    by Beardsley Ruml,
    Chairman of the Federal Reserve Bank of New York.

    Mr. Ruml read this paper before the American Bar Association during the last year of the war [World War II]. It attracted then less attention than it deserved and is even more timely now, with the tax structure undergoing change for peacetime. His thesis is that given (1) control of a central banking system and (2) an inconvertible currency, a sovereign national government is finally free of money worries and need no longer levy taxes for the purpose of providing itself with revenue. All taxation, therefore, should be regarded from the point of view of social and economic consequences. The paragraph that embodies this idea will be found italicized in the text. Mr. Ruml does not say precisely how in that case the government would pay its own bills. One may assume that it would either shave its expenses out of the proceeds of taxes levied for social and economic ends or print the money it needs. The point may be academic. The latter end of his paper is devoted to an argument against taxing corporation profits. — Editor.

    The superior position of public government over private business is nowhere more clearly evident than in government’s power to tax business. Business gets its many rule-making powers from public government. Public government sets the limits to the exercise of these rule-making powers of business, and protects the freedom of business operations within this area of authority. Taxation is one of the limitations placed by government on the power of business to do what it pleases.

    There is nothing reprehensible about this procedure. The business that is taxed is not a creature of flesh and blood, it is not a citizen. It has no voice in how it shall be governed — nor should it. The issues in the taxation of business are not moral issues, but are questions of practical effect: What will get the best results? How should business be taxed so that business will make its greatest contribution to the common good?

    It is sometimes instructive when faced with alternatives to ask the underlying question. If we are to understand the problems involved in the taxation of business, we must first ask: “Why does the government need to tax at all?” This seems to be a simple question, but, as is the case with simple questions, the obvious answer is likely to be a superficial one. The obvious answer is, of course, that taxes provide the revenue which the government needs in order to pay its bills.

    It Happened
    If we look at the financial history of recent years it is apparent that nations have been able to pay their bills even though their tax revenues fell short of expenses. These countries whose expenses were greater than their receipts from taxes paid their bills by borrowing the necessary money. The borrowing of money, therefore, is an alternative which governments use to supplement the revenues from taxation in order to obtain the necessary means for the payment of their bills.
    A government which depends on loans and on the refunding of its loans to get the money it requires for its operations is necessarily dependent on the sources from which the money can be obtained. In the past, if a government persisted in borrowing heavily to cover its expenditures, interest rates would get higher and higher, and greater and greater inducements would have to be offered by the government to the lenders. These governments finally found that the only way they could maintain both their sovereign independence and their solvency was to tax heavily enough to meet a substantial part of their financial needs, and to be prepared —if placed under undue pressure — to tax to meet them all.

    The necessity for a government to tax in order to maintain both its independence and its solvency is true for state and local governments, but it is not true for a national government. Two changes of the greatest consequence have occurred in the last twenty-five years which have substantially altered the position of the national state with respect to the financing of its current requirements.

    The first of these changes is the gaining of vast new experience in the management of central banks.

    The second change is the elimination, for domestic purposes, of the convertibility of the currency into gold.

    Free of the Money Market
    Final freedom from the domestic money market exists for every sovereign national state where there exists an institution which functions in the manner of a modern central bank, and whose currency is not convertible into gold or into some other commodity.

    The United States is a national state which has a central banking system, the Federal Reserve System, and whose currency, for domestic purposes, is not convertible into any commodity. It follows that our Federal Government has final freedom from the money market in meeting its financial requirements. Accordingly, the inevitable social and economic consequences of any and all taxes have now become the prime consideration in the imposition of taxes. In general, it may be said that since all taxes have consequences of a social and economic character, the government should look to these consequences in formulating its tax policy. All federal taxes must meet the test of public policy and practical effect. The public purpose which is served should never be obscured in a tax program under the mask of raising revenue.

    What Taxes Are Really For
    Federal taxes can be made to serve four principal purposes of a social and economic character. These purposes are:
    1. As an instrument of fiscal policy to help stabilize the purchasing power of the dollar;
    2. To express public policy in the distribution of wealth and of income, as in the case of the progressive income and estate taxes;

    3. To express public policy in subsidizing or in penalizing various industries and economic groups;

    4. To isolate and assess directly the costs of certain national benefits, such as highways and social security.

    In the recent past, we have used our federal tax program consciously for each of these purposes. In serving these purposes, the tax program is a means to an end. The purposes themselves are matters of basic national policy which should be established, in the first instance, independently of any national tax program.
    Among the policy questions with which we have to deal are these:

    Do we want a dollar with reasonably stable purchasing power over the years?
    Do we want greater equality of wealth and of income than would result from economic forces working alone?

    Do we want to subsidize certain industries and certain economic groups?

    Do we want the beneficiaries of certain federal activities to be aware of what they cost?

    These questions are not tax questions; they are questions as to the kind of country we want and the kind of life we want to lead. The tax program should be a means to an agreed end. The tax program should be devised as an instrument, and it should be judged by how well it serves its purpose.
    By all odds, the most important single purpose to be served by the imposition of federal taxes is the maintenance of a dollar which has stable purchasing power over the years. Sometimes this purpose is stated as “the avoidance of inflation”; and without the use of federal taxation all other means of stabilization, such as monetary policy and price controls and subsidies, are unavailing. All other means, in any case, must be integrated with federal tax policy if we are to have tomorrow a dollar which has a value near to what it has today.

    The war has taught the government, and the government has taught the people, that federal taxation has much to do with inflation and deflation, with the prices which have to be paid for the things that are bought and sold. If federal taxes are insufficient or of the wrong kind, the purchasing power in the hands of the public is likely to be greater than the output of goods and services with which this purchasing demand can be satisfied. If the demand becomes too great, the result will be a rise in prices, and there will be no proportionate increase in the quantity of things for sale. This will mean that the dollar is worth less than it was before — that is inflation. On the other hand, if federal taxes are too heavy or are of the wrong kind, effective purchasing power in the hands of the public will be insufficient to take from the producers of goods and services all the things these producers would like to make. This will mean widespread unemployment.

    The dollars the government spends become purchasing power in the hands of the people who have received them. The dollars the government takes by taxes cannot be spent by the people, and, therefore, these dollars can no longer be used to acquire the things which are available for sale. Taxation is, therefore, an instrument of the first importance in the administration of any fiscal and monetary policy.

    To Distribute the Wealth
    The second principal purpose of federal taxes is to attain more equality of wealth and of income than would result from economic forces working alone. The taxes which are effective for this purpose are the progressive individual income tax, the progressive estate tax, and the gift tax. What these taxes should be depends on public policy with respect to the distribution of wealth and of income. It is important, here, to note that the estate and gift taxes have little or no significance, as tax measures, for stabilizing the value of the dollar. Their purpose is the social purpose of preventing what otherwise would be high concentration of wealth and income at a few points, as a result of investment and reinvestment of income not expended in meeting day-to-day consumption requirements. These taxes should be defended and attacked it terms of their effects on the character of American life, not as revenue measures.
    The third reason for federal taxes is to provide a subsidy for some industrial or economic interest. The most conspicuous example of these taxes is the tariffs on imports. Originally, taxes of this type were imposed to serve a double purpose since, a century and a half ago, the national government required revenues in order to pay its bills. Today, tariffs on imports are no longer needed for revenue. These taxes are nothing more than devices to provide subsidies to selected industries; their social purpose is to provide a price floor above which a domestic industry can compete with goods which can be produced abroad and sold in this country more cheaply except for the tariff protection. The subsidy is paid, not at the port of entry where the imported goods are taxed, but in the higher price level for all goods of the same type produced and sold at home.

    The fourth purpose served by federal taxes is to assess, directly and visibly, the costs of certain benefits. Such taxation is highly desirable in order to limit the benefits to amounts which the people who benefit are willing to pay. The most conspicuous examples of such measures are the social security benefits, old-age and unemployment insurance. The social purposes of giving such benefits and of assessing specific taxes to meet the costs are obvious. Unfortunately and unnecessarily, in both cases, the programs have involved staggering deflationary consequences as a result of the excess of current receipts over current disbursements.

    The Bad Tax
    The federal tax on corporate profits is the tax which is most important in its effect on business operations. There are other taxes which are of great concern to special classes of business. There are many problems of state and local taxation of business which become extremely urgent, particularly when a corporation has no profits at all. However, we shall confine our discussion to the federal corporation income tax, since it is in this way that business is principally taxed. We shall also confine our considerations to the problems of ordinary peacetime taxation since, during wartime, many tax measures, such as the excess-profits tax, have a special justification.
    Taxes on corporation profits have three principal consequences — all of them bad. Briefly, the three bad effects of the corporation income tax are:

    1. The money which is taken from the corporation in taxes must come in one of three ways. It must come from the people, in the higher prices they pay for the things they buy; from the corporation’s own employees in wages that are lower than they otherwise would be; or from the corporation’s stockholders, in lower rate of return on their investment. No matter from which sources it comes, or in what proportion, this tax is harmful to production, to purchasing power, and to investment.
    2. The tax on corporation profits is a distorting factor in managerial judgment, a factor which is prejudicial to clear engineering and economic analysis of what will be best for the production and distribution of things for use. And, the larger the tax, the greater the distortion.

    3. The corporation income tax is the cause of double taxation. The individual taxpayer is taxed once when his profit is earned by the corporation, and once again when he receives the profit as a dividend. This double taxation makes it more difficult to get people to invest their savings in business than if the profits of business were only taxed once. Furthermore, stockholders with small incomes bear as heavy a burden under the corporation income tax as do stockholders with large incomes.


    Let us examine these three bad effects of the tax on corporation profits more closely. The first effect we observed was that the corporation income tax results in either higher prices, lower wages, reduced return on investment, or all three in combination. When the corporation income tax was first imposed it may have been believed by some that an impersonal levy could be placed on the profits of a soulless corporation, a levy which would be neither a sales tax, a tax on wages, or a double tax on the stockholder. Obviously, this is impossible in any real sense. A corporation is nothing but a method of doing business which is embodied in words inscribed on a piece of paper. The tax must be paid by one or more of the people who are parties at interest in the business, either as customer, as employee, or as stockholder.
    It is impossible to know exactly who pays how much of the tax on corporation profits. The stockholder pays some of it, to the extent that the return on his investment is less than it would be if there were no tax. But, it is equally certain that the stockholder does not pay all of the tax on corporate income — indeed, he may pay very little of it. After a period of time, the corporation income tax is figured as one of the costs of production and it gets passed on in higher prices charged for the company’s goods and services, and in lower wages, including conditions of work which are inferior to what they otherwise might be.

    The reasons why the corporation income tax is passed on, in some measure, must be clearly understood. In the operations of a company, the management of the business, directed by the profit motive, keeps its eyes on what is left over as profit for the stockholders. Since the corporation must pay its federal income taxes before it can pay dividends, the taxes are thought of — the same as any other uncontrollable expense — as an outlay to be covered by higher prices or lower costs, of which the principal cost is wages. Since all competition in the same line of business is thinking the same way, prices and costs will tend to stabilize at a point which will produce a profit, after taxes, sufficient to give the industry access to new capital at a reasonable price. When this finally happens, as it must if the industry is to hold its own, the federal income tax on corporations will have been largely absorbed in higher prices and in lower wages. The effect of the corporation income tax is, therefore, to raise prices blindly and to lower wages by an undeterminable amount. Both tendencies are in the wrong direction and are harmful to the public welfare.

    Where Would the Money Go?
    Suppose the corporation income tax were removed, where would the money go that is now paid in taxes? That depends. If the industry is highly competitive, as is the case with retailing, a large share would go in lower prices, and a smaller share would go in higher wages and in higher yield on savings invested in the industry. If labor in the industry is strongly organized, as in the railroad, steel, and automotive industries, the share going in higher wages would tend to increase. If the industry is neither competitive nor organized nor regulated — of which industries there are very few — a large share would go to the stockholders. In so far as the elimination of the present corporation income tax would result in lower prices, it would raise the standard of living for everyone.
    The second bad effect of the corporation income tax is that it is a distorting factor in management judgment, entering into every decision, and causing actions to be taken which would not have been taken on business grounds alone. The tax consequences of every important commitment have to be appraised. Sometimes, some action which ought to be taken cannot be taken because the tax results make the transaction valueless, or worse. Sometimes, apparently senseless actions are fully warranted because of tax benefits. The results of this tax thinking is to destroy the integrity of business judgment, and to set up a business structure and tradition which does not hang together in terms of the compulsion of inner economic or engineering efficiency.

    Premium on Debt
    The most conspicuous illustration of the bad effect of tax consideration on business judgment is seen in the preferred position that debt financing has over equity financing. This preferred position is due to the fact that interest and rents, paid on capital used in business, are deductible as expense; whereas dividends paid are not. The result weighs the scales always in favor of debt financing, since no income tax is paid on the deductible costs of this form of capital. This tendency goes on, although it is universally agreed that business and the country generally would be in a stronger position if a much larger proportion of all investment were in common stocks and equities, and a smaller proportion in mortgages and bonds.
    It must be conceded that, in many cases, a high corporation income tax induces management to make expenditures which prudent judgment would avoid. This is particularly true if a long-term benefit may result, a benefit which cannot or need not be capitalized. The long-term expense is shared involuntarily by government with business, and, under these circumstances, a long chance is often well worth taking. Scientific research and institutional advertising are favorite vehicles for the use of these cheap dollars. Since these expenses reduce profits, they reduce taxes at the same time; and the cost to the business is only the margin of the expenditure that would have remained after the taxes had been paid — the government pays the rest. Admitting that a certain amount of venturesome expenditure does result from this tax inducement, it is an unhealthy form of unregulated subsidy which, in the end, will soften the fibre of management and will result in excess timidity when the risk must be carried by the business alone.

    The third unfortunate consequence of the corporation income tax is that the same earnings are taxed twice, once when they are earned and once when they are distributed. This double taxation causes the original profit margin to carry a tremendous burden of tax, making it difficult to justify equity investment in a new and growing business. It also works contrary to the principles of the progressive income tax, since the small stockholder, with a small income, pays the same rate of corporation tax on his share of the earnings as does the stockholder whose total income falls in the highest brackets. This defect of double taxation is serious, both as it affects equity in the total tax structure, and as a handicap to the investment of savings in business.

    Shortly, an Evil
    Any one of these three bad effects of the corporation income tax would be enough to put it severely on the defensive. The three effects, taken together, make an overwhelming case against this tax. The corporation income tax is an evil tax and it should be abolished.
    The corporation income tax cannot be abolished until some method is found to keep the corporate form from being used as a refuge from the individual income tax and as a means of accumulating unneeded, uninvested surpluses. Some way must be devised whereby the corporation earnings, which inure to the individual stockholders, are adequately taxed as income of these individuals.

    The weaknesses and dangers of the corporation income tax have been known for years, and an ill-fated attempt to abolish it was made in 1936 in a proposed undistributed profits tax. This tax, as it was imposed by Congress, had four weaknesses which soon drove it from the books. First, the income tax on corporations was not eliminated in the final legislation, but the undistributed profits tax was added on top of it. Second, it was never made absolutely clear, by regulation or by statute, just what form of distributed capitalization of withheld and reinvested earnings would be taxable to the stockholders and not to the corporation. Third, the Securities and Exchange Commission did not set forth special and simple regulations covering securities issued to capitalize withheld earnings. Fourth, the earnings of a corporation were frozen to a particular fiscal year, with none of the flexibility of the carry-forward, carry-back provisions of the present law.

    Granted that the corporation income tax must go, it will not be easy to devise protective measures which will be entirely satisfactory. The difficulties are not merely difficulties of technique and of avoiding the pitfalls of a perfect solution impossible to administer, but are questions of principle that raise issues as to the proper locus of power over new capital investment.

    Can the government afford to give up the corporation income tax? This really is not the question. The question is this: Is it a favorable way of assessing taxes on the people — on the consumer, the workers and investors — who after all are the only real taxpayers? It is clear from any point of view that the effects of the corporation income tax are bad effects. The public purposes to be served by taxation are not thereby well served. The tax is uncertain in its effect with respect to the stabilization of the dollar, and it is inequitable as part of a progressive levy on individual income. It tends to raise the prices of goods and services. It tends to keep wages lower than they otherwise might be. It reduces the yield on investment and obstructs the flow of savings into business enterprise.

    • Bob Wire

      lengthy but well worth the read, thanks Pete!

    • http://none Mike

      A man who was way before his time. I wish we had some more around like him.Mike L.

  • Stephen

    What happened to the link to Rumi’s speech? The link is gone.

    • submoa

      I discovered the missing article, too. hmm…

  • Roland N Thompson

    All this grip about taxes makes me sick. the 80,000 page tax code is set up to let those who pay off our congress people get by without paying tax. I reviewed a tax return for a farmer who had his farm wash away in the 1964 flood taking credit for the loss. All of his land and buildings washed away. When the IRS audited him the reduced the value of his property to almost nothing and made him pay back 90% of the flood loss.

    Later I filed my tax return and payed my tax. The IRS sent me a letter saying they received my check without my return. Please send them a copy. I did with a copy of their letter at which time they deducted the amount of the tax from my checking account. They then refused to refund the overpayment even though they agreed I should get it back.
    I know of several audits I reviewed where fraud was involved by our state. Our government state and federal are less than honest.

    • Bob Wire

      It’s a game, and why you need a good tax attorney and preferably a good tax man that has work for the IRS at some point.

      I have one such man, a Nigerian that goes by “Bones” speaks the Kings English so thick, he’s hard to understand.

      For every question the IRS ask, he ask five very polite questions. It takes them a few question to realize what they are dealing with and I’m too small to worry with.

      It’s kind of a Porcupine defense. They might get me, but it’s a painful process and not worth the trouble. There’s really nothing to get. I hide no wealth.

  • submoa

    Thank you Pete Sagi!

  • http://InternetExplorer Rosalie Bryan

    Hflashman is a flash in the pan. But when our country goes down, you, my friend will go down with it. Socialists, Communists, Marxists, and all the likes (such as you) are an evil bunch, and evil will be defeated in the final analysis. Just mark my words.

  • Badge 7-14

    Flashman:: What you smoking? Sounds like you would like to live under socialism, maybe you should go to socialist country and take your liberial press with you!!!!!! We are a Capitalist Nation, and intend to remain that way. I want my grand-children to grow up under capitlism and be able to prosper and work for a living and not be a dole to the goverment, and have the right to own a gun if that is there choice.


    1945-1980 35 years of Equality in distribution of Income and Wealth
    Reagan began attack on government. Cut Government-Cut Taxes-Build Killing machines. He increased size of government by 80%–increased Debt by 170% and decreased Carter job creation by 24%.
    He set a record for number convicted of crimes in an administration.
    More under him than grand total from 1900 to 1981
    He got us involved in five international conflicts

    He began redistribution of Income-Wealth to top
    In 1980 1% owned 20% total financial wealth
    In 1989 owned 36% for 80% gain.
    In 1980 we had 10 Billionaires. In 1989 51.

    Bush continued redistribution big time.
    In 2008–1% owned 43% total financial wealth
    In 2008–1% got 24% total national income.
    2001-2007 the 1% took 66% total income growth

    From 1980 three so-called Conservative Presidents with 18 years Conservative Senate-12 years Conservative House and 6 years Total Conservative control


    Increased Carter 600B budget to 3600B(less wjc itsy bitsy)
    Increased Carter 1000B of Debt by 9000B.
    Increased Deficits to 1400 in Bush 2009 budget.
    Involved America in 8 international conflicts in which millions of innocents died.
    JOBS–created 99,000 net new jobs per month to carter + clinton 222,000.
    Gave us Great Recession from deregulation Housing and Wall Street.
    Created the Casino Derivative Of America.
    Investors flocked to get into Gambling.
    Left investments in businesses to create jobs.
    Proof: Dow hi of 11,720 in 2000 and less than that today.
    S&P 500 major corporation value declined 2000-2009
    7800 Bank Deposits now 80% owned by less than 20. Monopoly.

    120,000,000 workers own 7% total financial wealth

    Today we have an Aristocratic Corpocracy. Like it or not it is truth

    The numbers are factual.
    comments welcome
    political historian lifeaholics of america
    author-Lifeaholic on best seller list at haw river gazette.
    olduglymeanhonest mad mad mad

    • MashedTaters

      CW. If you pushed on a wall and it went nowhere, are you to assume that the wall was pushing against you or should you assume that maybe you need to push harder.

      The idea of government in the US as envision by some of the creators of the Dec. of Ind., the Art. of Conf., and the Constitution & BoR has changed or been changed. The usual motive force is a war.

      If a person cannot work to build his family’s wealth and his wealth why work. The common good of the nation is an abstract idea, and an ideal that is often spoken of by many but followed by few. Most people are too selfish to be a communist for long. So, the idea of equalizing wealth and income or distributing wealth and easing suffering is noble but an unending Don Quixote mission. Please of the reduction of suffering of us all drop the idea.

      The main threat to wealth concentration in the hands of a few is the idiot son or daughter or son or daughter in law. Fortunes are easier lost than made. Keep that in mind C.W. A normal tactic of the envious jealous and coveator is to attack the fortunate few.

      Natural processes run their course better than government. I am not advocating the force reintroduction of smallpox and polio with withheld or costly immunization. Government is in its best form when it provides solutions to broad based threat such as deadly diseases. However, control of the population by over regulation of the food supply in the name of public health and safety is just as dangerous from the supply of food standpoint as my idea of return of smallpox and polio with only the privledged or the rich being given the preventative.

      There is not tyrant greater than the masses. Do not suffer their whining and complaining. Do not appease them unless absolutly necessary. Make them work. Otherwise, you will be a slave with many brutal masters.

      • Bob Wire

        Man , you are all over the place.

        Too many Ayn Rand novels?

        No man is an island unto himself. Ya ~ I know ~ it’s a b1tch!

        One attempts to prosper in whatever country and century you are born into. We are lucky this is not 1790 France.

        Bottom line, we are all born naked and then we learn to dress ourselves.

        If you don’t like your “cloths” it’s for you to change them.

        There are times, you might have to wear “issue” and conform for the time being. Just do it or go somewhere, ~ where you can wear the cloths of your choice.

        Don’t judge yourself by comparison to others. They are your cloths, wear them well.

        • MashedTaters

          Yeah, I am all over the place. But, that is how I think. Sorry. I do not have much time to spend on these comments anyway. So, pick what you want or nothing at all out of them.

        • MashedTaters

          Do not know a thing about Ann R. but I have heard the name.

  • JB

    Not one dime of your Federal Income Taxes are used for the so called services the Federal Government provides. One hundred percent of your hard earned money goes to pay interest on loans from the Federal Reserve to the Government. War requires a lot of money that is borrowed from the Federal Reserve. As some have already stated, the Federal Reserve is not Federal at all but is owned by a group of foreign bankers. Someone stated earlier that the problem is systemic not right or left. You couldn’t be more correct! We are all Americans, well most of us are anyway with the exception of our current Usurper in the Whitehouse and millions of Illegals. Do your research on the Federal Reserve and its history. Look into the truth behind our Income Tax before you spout off! It only makes you look stupid…by the way, I don’t watch Fox or MSNBC or CBS or ABC or CNN or any mainstream moron-media. If we don’t learn to come together and find the answers as a nation, we are doomed to slide into the abyss just like Rome and the Soviets and every other nation that turned its back on morality and God.

    “…I’m no conservative, and I’m no liberal. I’m not a Democrat or a
    Republican. And I’m not a green or a libertarian, or a socialist or an
    anarchist. I’m not even an independent.

    All I am is me, and all I want is to live free.”
    Michael Boldin

    • http://PersonalLibertyDigest Linda

      Good for you but unfortunately people are like little sheep always following somekind of retarded leader that is a puppet of billionaires they love obama the stupid witless jerk we will never be free unless we let go of the fear and take our country back to where we can live a decent life.That will not happen we need real men and I think they have all gone underground


    Bush years were deja vu of Coolidge and 1920′s

    Cut Interest Rates for Banks to 1%.
    Increase total money suppl by twice as much in five years in prior ten years. Open vaults. Come and get it. They sho did.
    1999 repeal of Glass Steagall permitted Monopoly by Few Big banks To Big To Fail.
    Almost free interest money in abundance allowed developers to go wild
    building homes too big and too expensive for middle class incomes.
    No own payment–low payments for few years. Refinance and get quick cash no problem HOUSES ALWAYS APPRECIATE. sho nuff!
    $50 per sq ft became $100 per sq ft
    In 2000 it took only 3.2 years of an average income to buy an average size home. In 2006 it was 5.4 years.
    Frenzy Bubble Greed.Sell home cost $400,000 for $700,000. Never enjoyed such profits
    Lehman, Bear Stearns, and other banks begged for mortgages. Any.
    Toxic! Who cares. Bundle into securities sell all over the world.
    Triple A. Always gain in value. Always. No worry. Always.

    If you know they are toxic just go to AIG and bet against them. No problem. Goldman fined 555M for it. Big deal. what a fine. It is like robbing a bank of $100,000 and being fined $4,000 with no jail sentence and you keep the $100,000.

    Why? The 555M fine was 4% of 2009 profits for Goldman.

    • MashedTaters

      Yes Clarence what you say is all fact. However, who was behind the push for these programs? Was it the vast majority of republicans? No. Of course it was not. Was this a conservative movement? Absolutly not. Most conservatives disliked Pres. Bush II’s spending and his stance on an open border. Was the collapse predictable? Yes, I heard common people speak of it as early as 96 or 97. It is only a wonder that inflation stayed in the housing sector for the most part. When it jumped to fuel and food is where and when I think the final nail was driven.

      President Bush II had to ride in the boat he was given and more or less on the charted path. Explain how he could have reversed course without a massive cry of favoritism, racism, and unfairness if he had suddenly reigned in the Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac show. I will not get into what was making millions as heads of these “clearing houses”.

      President Obama is worse. He is in charge of a damaged ship and will not take a clear course or issue effective and clear orders. The ship of state is adrift. One day we are going to annihilate Iran and Pakistan; the next we are going to swap something with them.

      Cutting out all the disablity payments to able bodied broom pushers and Mexican backhoe operators would be a first start. Stop the plantation court system that rules over child welfare and so called family law. Make people responsible for their actions economically or let them suffer the consequences for a change. Maybe a few will decide to go back to work. And, make it legal to hunt theives on your own property too. Stop the medicaid farce that has turned the doctor’s offices into family reunions for the not so sick but bored welfare recepient.

      Doing nothing at all is worse than draconian measures or socialist measures because a game plan has to be followed by the public or dismissed out of hand by the public.

  • Dee Go here to take back our country!

  • http://PersonalLibertyDigest Linda

    You stupid dumb socialists make me want to puke, you will ruin what we have all of you I can’t think of a name bad enough to call you. I suppose you are all for the legalization of the midgets coming in across the border illegally also you jerk-offs they are taking your childrens and their childrens jobs aw’s.

  • Henry Ledbetter

    ‘If God be for us then who can stand against us???” “MEDITATE ON THE WORD OF GOD DAY AND NIGHT AND WE WILL BE LIKE A TREE PLANTED BY THE RIVERS OF WATERS THAT BRINGETH FORTH ITS FRUIT IN DUE SEASON. THE UNGODLY ARE NOT SO BUT LIKE THE CHAFF THAT THE WIND DRIVETH AWAY.” I would say to all to look to the ONLY ONE that is able to deliver us at this late hour. I find peace even in the midst of all these troubles because of a relationship I began with Him forty years ago. LET ME SUGGEST to consider simplifying your worship.

    Some of us worship together each Sunday in an old church building that has no electricity. We have kerosene lamps and candles that are lit on some occasions. We have modernized by having a radiant gas heater that feeds off a propane tank. The only committee in the church is a benevolence committee and many needs are met. Old hymns of the faith are sung and the Word of God is preached The people come to worship and Our Lord Meets us there each Sunday. In Christ Henry

  • http://PersonalLibertyDigest Linda

    who cares, democrats are brain dead.

  • Roland N Thompson

    Linda its not a surprise when our colleges teach our children what to think not how to think.

  • fa

    I posted a reply last week when the initial (or nearly so) response was “Audit the FED!”…They do so every year, and it’s right out there for everyone to see. The best place to hide something is in plain sight.
    This is the independent audit of the Federal Reserve for 2008. They do it every year, as every corporation is required to do, by law. The Federal Government has a cafr, as do the states, counties, towns/cities (that are INCORPORATED), public retirement funds, etc. 185,000+ cafrs out there, and the wealth they hold is enough to wipe out the public debt (oh, by the way, read the 14th Amendment to the Constitution FOR the United States [the corporate rules they've been following for quite some time, to our detriment] and notice that they proclaim that the government is NOT responsible for the public debt.) and eliminate income taxes for everyone. FOX is entertainment; very little news. Glenn Beck is an ENTERTAINER; the subject he chooses to entertain with has gained a bigger market share since ’08 or so. It is a shell game, with select people or corporations making out like bandits.
    Taxes will continue to increase to satisfy the hunger of the Fed, especially the more federal holdings that become privatized. While that will make more wealth in the private sector (again, for a select few), it will not change the number of hungry at the Federal level, and reasons for increasing our payments to them will have to be devised and passed. This will happen with much debate, ensuring that some of the politicians will be thrown out for their vote, only to be replaced with new politicians, after a large amount of money is spent in media advertising, which helps to entertain us. (Don’t get distracted now,.) We will continue to pay retirement, pensions, health insurance, etc. for the politicians we’ve replaced, as well as paying all (or most, anyway) expenses for the new guys. (I would even hazard a guess that they have an actuarial formula for how high unemployment can go will still maintaining their lifestyles, with variables like cost of war, condition of stock/bond/commodity markets, etc. figured in as well.)
    What is most interesting in the cafrs is the amount of corporate America owned by corporate government. It’s in there. They own huge chunks of corporations, and vote on their board decisions, even voting on BOD elections. They also vote on legislation that controls (or doesn’t control) these corporations that supply ‘we the sheeple’ with everything we need, or think we need.
    They already control the internet, either overtly or covertly. That’s just another distraction. The food bill (oh, something will come of it) will seal control of most of our food supplies. We have a bit of free thought left, but that is manipulated by media, for the most part.
    I don’t know what the solution is…but not knowing the truth is not helping matters at all. Constitutional powers and limitations need to be restored. States (individual nations, actually) need their powers back, instead of looking to Uncle Sam as daddy. Government employees need to be public servants, not corporate servants or self-servants. Entitlements should be limited.
    Honor and dignity might just be restored.

    • MashedTaters

      Agree with you fa. Need to explain what a cafr is before u use the acromyn so all will know.

      • fa

        Comprehensive Annual Financial Report. These explain all the holdings, expenses (general) revenue, net assets and liabilities. And investements. And proxy votes. (Votes on corporate issues)
        Usually a few hundred pages, at the state level and above.


    If any thinking person believes we live in a free country you are deluded beyond comprehension!The income tax is unconstitutional, there are not enough prisons, lawyers, or Governmental personnell to jail every American citizen who just stops paying income tax or any other taxes! When the purse strings are severed money stops flowing to the CRIMINALS, then watch those sleasly BASTARDS start listening to the AMERICAN PEOPLE! Either that or they start KILLING PEOPLE until they SUBMIT! These people who are elected are nothing more than FULL BLOWN CRIMINALS virtually no different from the MAFIOSO!

    • MashedTaters

      I have been to many once grand manufacturing plants in the US. They were all vacant. The first time, I was a bit set back by the ghost town atmosphere. See, when these plants close, the money flow ends. People, except for a few personnel that do the final shut down, just leave everything as it was on the final day which can be an abrupt ending. Some plant demolition contractors that see the log books, work in progress left unfinished, supply rooms fully stocked, and tools dropped on the floor are stunned.

      If all would agree to stop paying taxes at once and that includes business payroll taxes, an end to the income tax farce would happen as you wisly suggest. Then, the government employees and the piglets at the tit would have a choice. Take that government check or freshly printed dollar or go home.

      If spending of virtual dollars got out of hand, then the banks would suffer the horror of loans being paid off early with cheap money. If no more loans were taken, then the bankers could all go home which would do us all a ton of good since most of them were challenged beyond their abilities in the tenth grade.

  • MashedTaters

    Hey Bob and the gang and a Merry Christmas to all. And, if you are of the anti-christmas, atheist, satan worshipping, demon drink, dope smoking, pill taking crowd – happy full moon eclipse on the winter soltice.

    Great article except that one or two sentences about gold. I have said all this before but that obviously was not the first time it was said by someone. And, I thought it was a novel idea. Well I know better to think I am so smart but it is addictive.

    Taxes are not needed by a responsible government. Taxes and deficit spending are used to control the people. The resultant inflation destroys all wealth, asset value ( most assets become too costly to be used to produce wealth or even an income, and crushes the poor and fixed income crowd. Some fine trade for a government that is supposed to protect the borders and pave a few roads.

    Not going to write much more because ole Bob L. owns this site and does not allow me to print what I really want to say.

    • Markus

      Please write some more!!! I am not versed in the monetary ways of the wealthy, just a hard working stiff who sees that things are going very, very wrong. There is no doubt that everything is a LIE and a SCAM. The government keeps telling us to, “Stop believing our own eyes”, and I am sick of it. We are definitely in a bad spot and it is going to get much worse, but in the end, God says, “the meek shall inherit the earth”, I have my faith in God, that he is going to smash these soul-less scum.

      • MashedTaters

        The meek will inheirit the earth because they are in the greatest number. Which is alright if you inheirit something worth having.

    • Bob Livingston

      Dear MashedTaters,

      I defy you to state a date and time where I have censored one of your messages if it didn’t violate the terms of use policy. We allow many things to stand, unedited, including criticisms and ad hominem attacks on me personally. We are not afraid of the truth here. So, as long as you’re not using profanity or making threats, there has not been a time I didn’t allow you “to print what I really want to say.”

      Best wishes,

      • Bob Wire

        If you can’t say it here on Livingston’s forums , you can’t say it anywhere

        and it probably don’t need to be said.

      • MashedTaters

        Mome of the other sites allow foul language but not conserative or reactionary ideas.

        Mr. Livingston is the site owner. Since I firmly believe that as owner he should have the control of how his bandwidth is used, I can only whine.

        However, I do not think my opinions of MLK, black churches, drug dealers not paying taxes, corruption of the courts and law enforcement, what few sensible actions our President might happen to infrequently take, or anything about race will pass because this site is trying to be racially neutral and apologist when I am not and no non-black needs to be.

        In addition, I am nearly certain I have seen several posts combined to make one. Which is confusing.

  • Markus

    I hope that all of our military personel will understand that “We the People” are the ones in the right, and the government is the tyranical enemy when this all comes to a head. I pray the military stands up for us and not them.

    • Bob Wire

      Fat chance Markus!

      things will need to become much more “grave” then what we see happening today.

      The military is full of Napoleon wannabee’s, it only takes one.

      You ever view “The Thin Red Line”?

      • Remann

        Bob, not sure if you served or not, but you are wrong. I was asked one simple question, while serving in the Army. That question being if forced to make a choice in the event of war, would you protect the people or government. We / They took an oath to Protect and Defend the Constitution of The United State against enemies both foreign and domestic. I chose the people and that was the correct answer.

        Our domestic enemy today is the Federal Government

        • MashedTaters

          The US military is never, never, supposed to turn on the people. The government gets around that by either nationalizing the state guards or declaring a state of emergency and sending in troops as was done after Katrina and during riots in Arkansas and Mississippie during the civil rights movement.

  • Ted R. Weiland

    Yahweh has a much better plan than the Constitutional Republic’s graduated income tax, it’s called a flat increase tax. See “Amendment 16: Graduated Income Tax vs. Flat Increase Tax” at

  • http://PersonalLibertyDigest DQuiney

    the federal reserv is a private bank 4 profit that hasn’t paid income taxes itself.

  • http://gunner689 gunner689

    It would be a thing of beauty if everyone refused to pay their federal income tax until we get a gvt. that is of, by, and for the people. I wish the few States that haven’t been corrupted would take a hard stand against the feds. and tell them to go pound salt.

  • Barney Murrell

    I am 72 years old and never in my entire life have I seen as much ignorance as comes from this web sight and most of the people who post here.

    I would like to have seen all you people tell WWII Japanese and Nazis that you don’t like paying taxes – the very taxes that paid to defeat the evil of those regimes.

    • MashedTaters

      There is some, a small bit, of ignorance here. The people here are involved and thinking of the sitution which is more than can be said for the vast majority of people in the US.

      About WWII. I feel remorse for the fellows, especially the young ones, who gave their life or their health to protect this country in WWII thinking that they were protecting a way of life they experienced at the time. Instead, WWII opened the door for the destruction of the very thing they were defending. In particular, since many a surviving WWII veteran saw what government could do, and their were massive efforts that bordered on the miraculous, these veterans became the socialist politicians that promoted big government, big spending, and military style equality where all get to take a chance at being killed equally or at least that is the ideal. I know in the military that is not the case but, they would have you believe so.

      Such has ruined the country.

      What is your solution to the fact that the country is not working and not making money from other countries like the US used to do. A house that cost 20,000 in 1970 now costs 600,000 to 1000000. Has the population grown at the rate of inflation in essentials? No. Something is wrong. Or, do you think the opposite is true. Everything is fine.

  • charlie

    Our domestic enemy today is the Federal Government… The Federal Reserve Bank.
    The Federal Reserve is a private bank for profits that hasn’t paid income taxes itself. Why not everyone else should. Think the President should get funds to pay off his debts he has occurred and their deficit would go down. They should pay our Government but instead they collect interest from our loans and the Presidents borrowing- spending. When were the audited? And Why not? The Federal Reserve is a company not owned by the government. What gives them this special privilege at Tax payers expense-cost.
    Is our Federal Government poorly managed and perhaps lack qualifications?

  • http://facebook Baby

    Beberoni..Thank you also Sir! May God Bless You and Merry Christmas to you and yours!!..We must keep up the GOOD fight and forget about the hflashman Of this world get you down. I and many others stand with you and are so very proud of you! WE THE PEOPLE of this GREAT NATION will always pull though ;-)..Because of fighter like you!

  • MashedTaters

    Speaking of something more make believe than our fiat currency, gold and silver as assets, and fractional reserve banking when does Kwanzaa startup so I can put purple lips on my Santa’s?

  • 2010 Free Tax

    Ok but free tax filing services is the best services. Now file your state taxes and federal taxes absolutely free.

  • http://none charlie

    Its all about location, location and who you are.
    the constitution clearly states with specificity what geographical area comprises the ‘United States’. see article 1, section 8 clause 17 and article IV, section 3 clause 2 of the constitution…
    Article 1 – Section 8 – clause 17 – “To exercise exclusive legislation in all cases whatsoever, over such District (not exceeding ten miles square) as may, by cession of particular states, and the acceptance of Congress, become the seat of the government of the United States, and to exercise like authority
    over all places purchased by the consent of the legislature of the state in which the same shall be, for the erection of forts, magazines, arsenals, dockyards, and other needful buildings”; AND

    ARTICLE IV. – Section 3 – clause 2 – “The Congress shall have Power to dispose of and make all needful Rules and Regulations respecting the Territory or other Property BELONGING TO THE UNITED STATES; and nothing in this Constitution shall be so construed as to Prejudice any Claims of the United States, or of any particular States.”

    be attentive… pay attention to the use of the wrod ‘state’ when it has capital “S’ ans small “s”… this is critical to understanding where the geographical boundries of the ‘United States’ is (it does not say ‘United States of America’). read it over and over and underline the “S” and “s”… learn to decode the constitution! knowledge is NOT power, the use of knowledge is power.

    do any of you live in any of the specifically defined areas?

    When you look at the ‘United States’ flag… it says in title 4, chap 1 – sect 1 – TITLE 4 > CHAPTER 1 > § 1
    “The flag of the United States…” NOT THE FLAG of the United States of America…. that is not a mistake or typo because of article 1, section 8 clause 17 and article IV, section 3 clause 2 defines the exact, specific area belonging to the United States.

    Please pay close attention… each star does NOT represent the total land mass of the state – ONLY the land belonging to the federal government and it specifically states this in article 1, section 8 clause 17 and article IV, section 3 clause 2. when one understands location, location, location… then one will understand why the feds do not enforce immigration laws outside the geographicaly defined federal territory! Then can not…. why do you think they deployed the ‘s’tate’s national guard on the mexico/american border and not federal troops? (i know possie comatus [sp] also)

    When you come to understand this distiction of the specifically defined geographical boundries of the constuitutionally defined United States… the picture will become clear and the grand deception begins to unravel. It a V-8 moment!

    Then one only has to review the web of documents signed where one checked the box “Are you an U.S. citizen” because of the lack of understanding of article 1, section 8 clause 17 and article IV, section 3 clause 2. one voluntary elected to say one live’s in the federal zone defined by the constitution and the federal government believes you and treats one accordingly.

    Correcting the record is the challenge…the officers, employees and elected officals do not release their voluntary ‘citizen’ (their cash cows) easily.

    read carefully until you experience your personal V-8 moment…. only then does understanding of the real challenge become self-evident.

  • nevaeh
  • JennieWalsh

    Did you mention that the IRS and the Federal Reserve were set up by global organized crime to plunder, track, control and enslave the American people and destroy America? These criminals refer secretly to themselves as “Satan worshippers”.

  • Bob

    I.R.S. = Indebted Rothchild Slave

  • Susannah

    When I originally commented I clicked the “Notify me when new comments are added” checkbox and now each time a comment is added
    I get several e-mails with the same comment. Is there any
    way you can remove me from that service? Bless you!

    • Moderator


      When you receive an e-mail notification, this will appear at the end of it:
      Want less email? Modify your Subscription Options.
      If you click on Subscription Options, it will take you to a page that shows what articles you are following. If you float your mouse under the article title, a delete option will appear. If you click the delete option, you will no longer receive those e-mail notifications. I am unable to do this for you. Please let me know if you need further assistance.

      Have a wonderful day,


  • Girls riding bikes

    With havin so much content do you ever run into any issues of plagorism or copyright infringement?
    My website has a lot of unique content I’ve either written myself or outsourced but it seems a lot of it is popping it up all over the web without my permission. Do you know any ways to help protect against content from being stolen? I’d genuinely appreciate it.

  • http://xczxcxbz Randy Meighen

    Greetings, I have thought about purchasing the software package DubTurbo Beatmaker and was hoping somebody could give me an actual authentic critique of the software. Most of the internet sites that provide you with reviews are generally affiliates promoting the application therefore i doubt that the evaluations are valid. Many thanks in advance for any information somebody can provide.

  • iphone repair selangor

    These are in fact enormous ideas in concerning blogging.
    You have touched some nice things here. Any
    way keep up wrinting.


Sign Up For Personal Liberty Digest™!

PL Badge

Welcome to,
America's #1 Source for Libertarian News!

To join our group of freedom-loving individuals and to get alerts as well as late-breaking conservative news from Personal Liberty Digest™...

Privacy PolicyYou can opt out at any time. We protect your information like a mother hen. We will not sell or rent your email address to anyone for any reason.