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In the Belly Of the Beast

November 21, 2008 by  

In the Belly Of the Beast

The Christian faith is the only religion that cannot be manipulated in favor of one worldism or universalism sometimes called the New World Order. This is precisely why the world system and its political leaders hate, despise and persecute Christianity.

I hasten to explain that all the phony Christian fronts, televangelists and world evangelists are not Christians, but very much a part of the worldly system of antichrist.

All religions are collectivist religions except Christianity, which is an individual and individualist faith. Governments want and must have collectivism under some name whether it be democracy or communism.

Collectivism is a certain means of social, economic and religious control.

Politicians regularly espouse individualism, human liberty and democracy at the same time. Impossible! Individualism and human liberty are opposite to democracy and any other form of collectivism.

The collectivist mentality or the mass collective mind is the spirit of the New World Order. The collectivist man cannot oppose tyranny because he is himself tyranny. He is the reality of the supreme welfare state in its conspiracy of the ages to manipulate humanity against itself.

Collectivism is the foundation of the New World Order. It is supreme and total deception. It is completion of the tower of Babel. It is the conclusion and finished man without the spirit of Christ.

The collectivist mentality lures mankind into guidance from “higher authorities” (government). The crowd wants prepackaged truth and human freedom from government authority instead of using their own consciousness for making decisions and determining their own actions.

Hence, they are easily deceived and manipulated under some altruistic nonsense. Collective man wants the external authority of government instead of the spirit and mind of Christ. The animal farm is that world arena wherein man collectively surrenders himself, his personal being, his ego to collective and obedient faith in government authority.

It’s all very simple. A crowd can be manipulated into an altered state of consciousness (Hitler’s torchlight parades) finally evolving into a growing attitude of docility, whereas an individualistic person cannot be manipulated so easily. The state always considers that a self-sufficient and independent thinker is a threat to collectivism and its deception of the masses.

Thus, the Christian takes on the being and Spirit of Christ. His total allegiance is to The Living God. He will not sacrifice himself for “the common good” or “higher causes.” He cannot be manipulated by the State.

The welfare state must absolutely keep the people from the individualistic tendency of thinking for themselves.

Government parasites extract their wealth, power and pomp from mass deception based upon altruistic sacrifices of the workers and producers of wealth. Their greatest fear is that this will be revealed.

Human liberty is of God, not a privilege of the state. Let’s put on the whole Armor of God!

Bob Livingston

is an ultra-conservative American and author of The Bob Livingston Letter™, founded in 1969. Bob has devoted much of his life to research and the quest for truth on a variety of subjects. Bob specializes in health issues such as nutritional supplements and alternatives to drugs, as well as issues of privacy (both personal and financial), asset protection and the preservation of freedom.

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  • diane elizabeth ballou

    Praise God for you.

    • Bert Cundle

      What GOD? The God of Creation, “Maker of Nature” or of “RIGHT & WRONG”? God of Religions? Silly Girl…

  • ernie kohlmyer

    There is a book out by McTernan what America has done to Israel”
    This book shows the connection between our USA pressure on the Jews to give up covenant land for peace. In the book he documents the consequences of this pressure. He shows the economic and violent acts of nature that have hit us since 1991 when sr. Bush introduced the concept  (land for peace) to the economic 8. Why is no one speaking up about this policy? This policy curses Israel and brings a response from God on us. Are we that far from God as a nation that we don’t get it? Does anyone remember what covenant land means?
    Ernie in Clearwater

    • V.Mayes


      I was raised in a Christian family and was taught that the people in the land now called Israel were God’s chose people. I have since had my eyes opened .The covenant applies to the Israelites of old who migrated to Europe and America (Caucasians)-not the modern land of Israel . The peoples residing in this land called Israel now, are mostly not the decendents of Seth. They are jews by religion. eg. you can have Chinese, Jews, Russian Jews etc.

      • Franklin

        Dear V.,

        The doctrines you are referring to are known as British-Israelism, or Anglo-Israelism. These beliefs were made popular by Herbert W. Armstrong of the old Bible-based cult, the Worldwide Church of God, but have been proved to have no basis time and time again. He stole this heretical doctrine from the Mormons, another cult. A good refutation of British-Israelism is here: . If you are involved with an Armstrong group, I urge you to read the pages of this site:

        • CONNIE

          Not everyone that believes along these line’s have anything to do with Armstong.
          If you study for yourself and dig you will come to realize all people come from Noah, thru Abraham where there is a split with Isaac and Ishmiel. All Jews are Isrealite’s but not all Isrealite’s are Jew’s. Only the tribe of Judah were nicknamed Jew’s and it was first used in the Book of King’s.
          If you get into a library in a christian college and get into history books there you will learn about a man in old European history who left Babylon after the 70 yrs of bondage. He was released by Nebuchadnezar. The man had a scribe named Barach. The man was Jeremiah as many Bible scholars believe. Old Neb. as we learn in the Bible did something before he let Jeremiah leave. He killed all the male’s that were decendants of King David because he knew that God had promised David that there would always be someone sitting on his throne until the end of time. So Neb. thought he could stop this promise by killing the male decendants. Old Neb. didn’t realize that in God’s kingdome there is no male or female. He let Jeremiah leave with only the daughter’s who were decendants and King David’s coronation stone which sat under King David’s throne. Jeremiah came west to what is known today as Europe and then later Canada and America. The girls married along the way. That stone sits under Queen Elisabeth’s chair today. God never goes back on his word and the word is truth and the only truth. God knows where all 12 tribes are at and they are despersed through out the Western world. In Revelations there are a couple of tribes who are left out of the blessings of the end time. The Danes River got it’s name from the tribe of Dan which settled Denmark. Some of the Dan’s went north to what we believe is Russia today. Ismehial is the father of the Islam nations. God said he would bless them with wealth and he did. They are not Isrealite’s at all. They are still warring with all tribes of Isreal. All of the tribes got a geographrical area of the land of Isreal. None of it belongs to the Palestinians. The Bible doesn’t ever give the Palestinians a land mass. They don’t exist today in God’s eye’s. Arafat came from Syria and those folk are Syrian’s causing trouble which is prophesied. Joshua was supposed to have destroyed all of the Palestinians and he disobeyed God and now we have trouble. Why should they have a state and the Kirks are not allowed a state north of Iraq. The rest of Iraq is a thorn in the Kirks side as the Palestinians are a thorn in all of our sides because we are Isrealite’s and Islam wants as has been in all of history to destroy Isreal. This is why they want to destroy America. It is in their genes.
          All of this middle east situation makes sense when you put all of the begats together run genealogy in the Bible. God said when they say peace,peace there will be sudden destruction. When Bush I started land for peace time started running our. The Illuminati, CFR, Trilateral commission, New World Order, and the EU are all Chaos by design and God is allowing it all. He has a time line and we are definitley the last chapter. Jesus has waited over 2000 yrs for his bride. How many husband’s would wait that long for the precious fruit. Not just any fruit. He said “the precious fruit” is his bride. He is ready to recieve her. He has been patient for a long time. All man was created by God not just those in the middle east. We all came from one beginning and there his genealogy. We all belong to one of the tribes or are gentile’s. The old testament say’s as plain as day that the “fair to look upon” are Isrealite’s.

      • Kim McGough

        The Jew is of a blood line that can be traced, and yes the Jews were also scattered into all nations and many intermarried and then they started returning after WW! to the homeland under British rule. The British were to give them all of their homeland at a later date, but after WW11, the British failed to keep their promise and just gave them a fraction of the land. But they are still the chosen of God no matter where they have been. There is a lot of information about this. Now for the house of Israel, there are many scriptures pretainning to them and the church, and most Christains would be amazed at them. Whether Armstrong was right or wrong there is a lot to point in that direction that he might have been right. I can email them to you if you are interested. Here is part of one–in the last days you shall be called the sons of the living God. But God partially blinded the Jews to bring salvation to the world, He purposely didn’t give the church everything either. we know in part, I have found all of this very interesting but have forgotten some.

        • Andrew Klein

          What I would like to know is why does everyone believe the Muslims have the right to occupy the land we know as Israel. Back in those days, if a man had a son out of wedlock they were not guaranteed the rights as legitimate sons. All of Islam descends from Abraham’s bastard child, therefore the Muslims in the Middle east are infringing upon the rights of Jews.

        • Kim McGough

          Well first of all, the Jews and the other tribes went into captivity, 586 B. C,. and 721-22 B. C. and their land was taken over, they were allowed to go back and live their lifestyle, but never had dominion of their land again until 1948. The arabs roamed it all those years, even under British rule. So they claim that Britian gave their land to the Jews. Well the world as a whole does not believe in our God or His land for his chosen. Since the Jew and Christain are the most hated people in the world, the world will side with the others for that reason. Now touching Abraham, he was Abram at the birth of Ishmael, who was not the child of promise, but a legitatment child for the time because of Sarah, At the time when God came to Abram, and changed his name to Abraham, God’s blesses Ishmael and told Abraham what type of people that they would be, and it holds true to this day. The Jew will be treated this way until the day that Jesus returns. There is so much involved in the future of this world that it would take to long to explain it. But little by little you can come to understand God’s world and His plans for it.

          • Susan

            Shall IN THE BEGINNING GOD Be Deleted Because these Words have been written along with every word from Genesis 1; -Malachi- Matthew- Revelation No. How then how then was SIN FORGIVEN if not for the Cross, the Risen Christ Jesus, the Blood.

            FAITH, Comes by hearing and hearing by, The Word,

            The Book of Hebrew is in the NEW, Malachi tells of THE BOOK< also ELIJAH.

            FAITH, Cannot be taken from the heart of those having faith.

            As for Evangilist.. Ministers, and Priests, Disciples, Apostels, NOT necessarily in that order.


            I have known God is at work. Our President is not our CHRIST, nor the JEWS, Yashua, Yaway or Messiah. Neither am I.

            Worship GOD and PRAY in the name I have been taught and know and heard JESUS, If we cannot pray for these in this way then What can any of us say about ourselves?

      • Susan

        THEY are still named HEBREW JEW! JEWISH! AND ISRAEL, I happen to be one of those that believe that the Author of the Book of Genesis-Deteronomy GOD had it written he was born Of a captive Jewish woman of the Egyptians Arabian, Arab.

        TWO peoples two Nations, To this very day at war with one another.

        Shall we also forget about the Greeks ASSYRIANS, and the Roman empire. Shem, Japeth, and Ham. three Sons of NOAH. Shem is still the area of the Middle East, Jordanian, Egypt and Jerusalem Israel. Japeth is still the European areas, and HAM.. is the African area. It was HAMS SON grandson CANAAN that THE LORD CURSED. and it is the LAND OF CANAAN that ISRAEL WAS PROMISED. THAT TAKES IN alot of territory when you consider the PROMISE of THE LORD THY GOD to THE PEOPLE NAMED BY GOD ISRAEL.. JEWISH HEBREWS, OF ABRAHAM, ISAAC, and JACOB. Doesn’t it? the Promise was to Abraham and Sarah, Again the OLDER Ruled by the Younger. ISHMAEL of Haggar was OLDEST. the Younger was ISAAC,

        as for The RISEN CHRIST JESUS,, How many deny HIM and DENY HIS PROMISE. In JOHN, denying the New along with the Old, I call THESE ANTI-CHRIST.

        I notice this Topic has the LEAST threads, Is this a surprise? NO..

      • Dottyj0

        Being raised in a barn can’t make you a car. You are as wrong as 3 left shoes. Judaism is both cultural, and religious. People who marry into Judaism, do not become Jewish.It is not a religion you can break into. You have to be born into it. The promises from God to Abraham, (the father of Judaism) are for Jews alone. Get the book, “From Time Immemorial” by Joan Peters. All of the facts are in it. The most important thing you should know, is that the Arab people have 22 states. Some of them are bigger than our largest states. They are virtually un-inhabited. Isreal is the size of New Jersey. Why do they want it? Hatred! Twenty-to states, unused, undeveloped, no education for the children, no opportunities for women, who are treated like dogs? Are you kidding me? Isreal is green in the middle of the desert. Highly developed, they paid for that land, and it was a Mylaria infested swamp when they went there. They produce over 10 million carnations a year and sell them around the world. In the book of Isaih, God said in the last days the desert would blossom like a rose. Why are no flowers grown in 22 states by Abrab peoples? Hatred and strife. Read the Bible honey!It is their land!!!!!!!!11

        • Danver

          Right on Dottyjo!! The Jews as we know of today were the tribes Of Judah, Benjamin and Levi, who were only part of the twelve tribes of Israel to whom the promise was given to Abraham. That’s why they are blessed because they are the chosen people. That’s why Jesus, the ONLY BEGOTTEN SON of God was born of the Jews. Of course they are the object of hatred by the Muslims, who are being used by the Father of lies and deceit, Satan, by giving them Mohamed who professes to kill all infidels or non-believers of Islam as opposed to unconditional love and forgiveness to all, even your enemies as being professed by the Lord Jesus! The nation of Israel is always protected and being blessed as a fulfillment, in part, of the promise to Abraham! What I am really amazed about is the lack of decernment from these followers of Muslim faith. Who would you rather follow? One who professes murder and unforgiveness or one who professes forgiveness and unconditional love?

    • Kim McGough

      Do not devide God’s land, well our goverment is set in its ways to bring peace, not for Israel but for Palistine, The whole area was know as Palistine, but the people were from Jordan and surrounding area’s, but were undesirable to those countries, so they were sent there. The land was not any good since it had been plowed under with salt several times. Then after WW1 the British who had control agreed to give it back to the Jews but decided to only give them part of it. It is a bad mistake on the USA to push for this division, It is going agaist God and does have God’s wrath behind it. Watch Out!

      • Dottyj0

        Right on! He said (God) “I will bless those who bless you, and curse those who curse you”. America will loose like every nation that has gone agaist Isreal! Judgement just might reach us after all. Jesus is a Jew, and lives. No one will destroy Isreal unless it is him!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1

  • Herr Morgenholz

    Let me disagree with you on something; there is a certain collectivity to Christianity. Christ said that where 2 or 3 of you gather, I will be there. Not you alone, but you as a collective (though the early fathers often looked for solitude in which to pray and find Christ). We also speak all the time of “the Body of Christ”. We are in fact, as Christians, quite dependent on each other for our individual salvation. I share your view of televangelists, etc. (I’m an Orthodox Christian). There is certainly free will and it is up to each of us to strive for that salvation. But we depend on the prayers of our fellow Christians and the admonishment of the Church to assist us.

    That said, as Orthodox, I know better than most the damage done to the struggle for salvation that comes from secular, political collectivism. The horrors of such are lost on none of us.

    • CBDenver

      I disagree that “our individual salvation” is dependent on the Body of Christ. Salvation is through faith alone in Jesus which is a very individual endeavor. The gathering together of two or three (Matt 18:20) refers to being in agreement in prayer to accomplish some specific thing in the Father’s name. I think the “televangelists” go astray because they forsake the true Body of Christ (the Church) and go off to follow their own agenda unfettered by any restraints.

      • George

        Jas 2:24 You see, then, that it is by our actions that we are put right with God, and not * by our faith alone.
        Jas 2:17 So it is with faith: if it is alone and includes no actions, then it is *dead
        Jas 2:18 But someone will say, “One person has faith, another has actions.” My answer is, “Show me how anyone can have faith without actions. I will show you my faith by my actions.”
        Jas 2:20 You fool! Do you want to be shown that faith without actions is useless?

      • Sid

        Salvation is to the individual, not the body…the individual comes to repentance ALONE…is baptized ALONE and is ALONE RESPONSIBLE FOR HIS OR HER OWN ACTIONS…collectively we spread the gospel.

        • Joseph R Carreiro Sr

          I agree that you stand alone in the Salvation debate. You are correct Collective salvation is not Biblical. Thanks. Thanks for your input Sid.

          • Danver

            In the Christian faith, salvation is absolutely Biblical! A true believer is saved by the blood of Jesus, the ultimate sacrificial “Lamb of God Who takes away the sins of the world”.
            Other versions of salvation is not Biblical, this I can agree 100% with you if this is what you meant by not Biblical being not of Christianity!

    • Jay

      CBDenver, there is no personal or human endeavor involved in salvation. If you try to work for your salvation instead of receiving it as a free gift from God, then you are and will be hopelessly lost for all eternity. Jesus paid the price for sin with His death on Calvary and the only choice you have is to let Him pay for it, or else pay for it yourself in hell for all eternity. Any other approach to salvation is the same as telling God that His gift is worthless. But if you are not one of His elect, then you will never be able to see or understand that.

      • Trent Anderson

        Faith without works is dead. Bottom line there buddy. Hell is not eternal. Hell is the second death. Only Satan , the beasts, and the false prophets will be tormentented forever. Prove me wrong with scripture. Dont use where the worm dieth not. That does not justify eternal torture for unbelievers. God bless.

        • Jay

          Well Trent, I don’t know that I’ve ever had anyone who believed that there is a hell to question how long it would last. The Catholics have created their own ideas apart from scripture about a place called Purgatory that people could be prayed out of, assuming there were enough saints left who cared enough and prayed hard enough to get them out, but that idea is strictly fantasy on their part and has no Biblical basis. Matthew 10:28 and 23:33 are pretty clear on this for starters and anyone who spends any time in the Word of God will find that Jesus spoke of the place called “Hell” more than any other single subject. He said that the Son of Man came to seek and to save that which was lost, but according to John 3:16, everyone else (unbelievers) would perish and are condemned already. That doesn’t sound like there is much hope for them to escape the lake of fire to me. I suppose I could go on and on about everything Jesus said about hell and the lake of fire, but maybe those verses will get you started. Get an exhaustive concordance or just look up the word “hell” in the concordance in your Bible if you have one and you will be amazed at how much Jesus preached about the subject. You might wish to compare that with other words such as sheol, hades and the grave for a good word study reference point. Unbelievers like to avoid the subject of eternal hell because it makes them uncomfortable to think about it, but God is in fact justified in sending anyone there that rejects His atonement on Calvary for sin. In fact, He says that we are all deserving of Hell, but He has provided a way for those who believe to reconciled to Himself. Those who say otherwise do not realize just how awesome God really is and thus they do not recognize how serious their offense is in rejecting his sacrifice for their sin of unbelief. Unbelief is in fact calling ones’ creator a liar. That is the ultimate offense and cannot be pardoned. In fact, it is the only sin that cannot be covered by Jesus death on Calvary.

        • http://yahoo marie

          Trent, you wrote of hell in question. me I read the A.K.J.V. bible. I am from the ole school.but if I want to know and understand God word,on a subject,I ask God for wisdom to understand,then I go searching through his teaching.I look in the cordances to a specife subject,then follow up to the book in the bible that speaks of the subject.i understand God words is holly,has a different meaning.Jesus said ask and you will receive,knock and the door will open,seak and you shall find. what I just wrote. to me means,(ask)-pray.(Knock) go to him with a clear mind ,get your mind off worldly things.your heart got to be on him alone with a desire to know the truth.the holy spirit will come in and commund with you.he will open the door of your understanding.(seek) seek for the truth from your mind and heart.I believe a person mind is a open battle field for Holy spirit and principality. thats where evil spirits trys to gain your soul, yet if one have but a grain of muster seed of belief in God,there are guardian angles watching over . this is where the battle is about.I believe a person has two eyes to see of the world, yet an inter eye of understanding.only God can clear the veil away so you can see with got to ask , seek,pray for understanding.I believe in Jesus Christ,I believe he is the messiah, I believe he is God in the flesh. God is the creator of all,no one has seen God becouse he is the holy Ghost. he chose a virgen. her name was Mary,God sent a angle to speak to her of his to be holy work.No one can go above God,no one can seek out all about God.only what he wants you to know.if you can understand how the holy ghost can come into you. then you understand . Trent you ask to be told where to find subjects that is wrote to you. I give you the road map,you got to travel that road your self. it is strait and other road will take you to heaven,only the road that Jesus lead you on.that is why he spoke of beliveing in him,and have Faith.I judge no one.I am the least of all of you.I am but a pilgrem on the road of life home,when I get to the end of the road,I know I love Jesus with all my Heart. I pray he will welcome me home. pray for me and my soul.

      • Kim McGough

        The only personal endeavor to being saved is to respond to the call of God, which by the way is personal, and can only been done by the individual trough faith in God and Jesus Christ the savior. No work will not get you anywhere. By faith of the individual and the Grace Of God only can salvation be had.

  • Carrie

    Yeah, and it’s starting at the lowest grades of our public schools!

  • Rodney Dezarn

    strong textThe Apostle James identifies the collapse of this present order, formed by the global elite in Chapter 5, verses 1-7. The establishment is being ripped apart due to the fact that the working class have for so long been defruaded of just wages by these corrupt princes of industry and their politician allies. It appears that while these wealthy benefactors of the sweat and blood of many watch their wealth come to nothing they continue today to ignore the plight of the poor.

    The time of their collapse has come and globally it will occur yet this world being the inheritance of the wicked, we who our believers in Christ must not shed a tear but rejoice, for they have reaped what they have sewn. In the time of wrath, their gold and silver will not deliver them, these murderers of the just and righteous will receive their recompense upon their heads. While we are very few in numbers who remain in the faith, we will appear with the Lord Jesus at the time of his coming with a mighty army arrayed in glory for the battle against these who desire fables over the truth.

    • Cassie

      Okay. First of all I just want to get this straight to all Christians and other religious people out there. Just because we (as in atheists, agnostics, humanists, etc.) don’t believe in a God doesn’t mean that we are ‘the inheritance of the wicked’. We just don’t think that there is enough evidence out there that supports that claim. Okay, I really wanted to get that out there, because it seems like Christians think that just because we don’t believe in a God means that we are horrible people without morals, which in my opinion is totally far from the truth. I mean, yeah, some atheists do horrible stuff, but doesn’t mean that Christians don’t. Another thing I hated about your reply is that you say that Christians are very few in numbers. Uh, no offense but I don’t think you got the memo. Christians make up the largest percentage of Americans. Unless you mean that the Christian population is declining. Well, duh. Christianity is against homosexuality and abortion. Homosexuality because ‘Well the bible says its wrong.’ Yeah good argument except the people who don’t believe in the bible are just thinking that you feel uncomfortable around homosexuals so you try to take the rights away because they are different. And, of course people are going to support abortion. It gives people more freedom and individual choice. In the article it states that the government is taking away individualism by stating that the government is using collectivism. How are they doing that when they are giving each individual a choice? Please reply back, and good luck with the battle against those who desire fables over the truth. I wonder what I would need to win. (says sarcastically)

      • Rodney Dezarn

        strong textThe atheist, agnostic, and humanistic approach lacks judgement for immoral behavior for under these banners there is no good or evil. There is no personal responsibility and no absolute truth under these circumstances there is also no hope. For those who have faith in Christ place their trust in something greater than themselves realizing that love conquers all. It was this love exemplified in the selflessness of God to take on the form of a man and die by the hand of man to again restore the breach that sin created. Sin is the transgression of the law, without a system of law, lawlessness abounds, left unchecked no one would be left alive.

        The Law passed down from God to Moses only identified sin, it does not save us, nor does the keeping of the law justify us before God, for our sin remains. Yet by placing our trust in Jesus who took our sins upon himself we find justification by his blood. The Bible declares our righteousness is as filthy rags and if we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. God does not hate the sinner, only the sin, we have all sinned and come short of the glory of God, for this reason he offered up his Son, Jesus Christ of Nazareth that we might find forgiveness and be redeemed.

        Not all that name the name of Christ our Christians, for just as there are many false shepherds today, there are many wolves in sheeps clothing. God does not desire that any perish, but that all would repent of their sins and receive this free gift of salvation by faith, that through this we might be called the sons and daughters of God. Cassie consider your heart, for the heart is but a muscle, yet squeeze your hand continually until you reach muscle failure, it does not take long, but notice your heart continues to beat, how is this possible? If God does not exist you have nothing to fear and nothing to hope for, yet if you are wrong, there is much to fear and an eternity of torments. There in hell is a flaming fire, where is heard weeping and gnashing of teeth, no water to quench the burning tongue only the reality of pain and constant suffering.

        Hell was created by God for Satan and for his fellow angels that rebelled with him, it was not made for man, yet man in his rebellion chose this place as his destination. It is alright to question the existence of God, yet know this, it is declared in the scripture that the hands of God formed you in your mothers womb, you are fearfully and wonderfully made. From your beginnings God has loved you if you listen you can hear him call, however he did not create robots, each one of us is responsible for our choices. What is it to have faith in man for our existence for will they not fail us continually, yet God never changes and his love abides forever.

        • Christin Naud

          Wow, what a great explanation. I am in mortal fear of my salvation having only learned recently that “once saved always saved” is a false doctrine. I pray that God has mercy on my soul. God bless you,


          • mickey

            Cristian Naud eternal secutiry is not a false doctrine. you have been listening to the wrong people. CHRISTIANITY is in a total state of shambles just look at this TALK ROOM it is so sad.many so called Christian have become arrogant they think they have no sin. it is a form of SELF DECEPTION and SELF cannot trust what you read in these talk rooms pople here have their own agedia. Satan just loves it.get a good study BIBLE .i recomend the RYRIE BIBLE. Ask LORD JESUS TO REVEAL HIMSELF TO YOU.Open it to the BOOK OF JOHN read it, word upon word, verse upon verse ,in context,and HE will.HE will never lead you contrary to the BIBLE. SOME GOOD WEB SITES ARE THE BIBLICIST BIBLE STUDY CENTER .THE BLUE LETTER BIBLE COMMENTARIES,BIBLE .ORG, THE BEREAN BEACON, C A R M CHRISTIAN APPOLOGETICS REASEARCH MINISTRIES,REASONING FROM THE SCRIPTURES MINISTRIES,WALTER MARTIAN RELIGIOUS INFO NET, WITH CHRIST.ORG,THROUGHT THE BIBLE RADIO DR. VERNEN MCGEE, GOT QUESTIONS .ORG, THE BEREAN CALL.ORG,ROCKY MOUNTIAN SEMINARY, DALLAS THEOLOGICAL SEMINARY,PROF RON ROADS, LEWIS CHAFER SEMINARY, Christian hope this helps you LORD JESUS WILL NEVER LEAVE YOU OR FORSAKE YOU .PEOPLE WILL BE PRAYING FOR YOU .ON Christ BLOOD I STAND ALL OTHER GROUND IS SINKING SAND . MERRY JESUS CHRIST MASS.

        • Cassie

          Hey Rodney,
          Seriously just because I have a lack of belief that a god exists doesn’t mean I don’t have morals. I probably have the same morals as you do I just decide from my own mind that it is wrong and not from a bible who calls me a filthy rag. Do you think that a person that never heard of Jesus Christ or read the bible wouldn’t have any morals? Are you out of your mind? Not everyone is christian and they get their morals from the people around them. It is common sense. If I don’t want to get killed than chances are that everyone else doesn’t want to be murdered. So we make this society where we all agree to not kill each other, and if someone comes around that breaks that rule than we seperate him/her from our society. I don’t know how you think you are going to scare me with all that talk about hell. I don’t believe in a heaven so why would I believe in a hell? I think when you die, you die. There is no after-life or anything like that. I hope the best for you, but just realize that not everyone is going to hold the same beliefs as you. Good luck!

          • Danver

            First of all, you don’t lose anything by believing in the God of Creation and His ONLY begotten Son, Jesus, Who is the only Way to know the Father according to His testimony.
            On the contrary by not believing, you stand to lose everything. Your argument of acquiring your morals from other people around you, are they all atheist? Pardon me if I am wrong, but I assume you’re an American, whose nation’s constitution and laws were founded from Christianity.
            I can symphatize with you if you based your observation of Christianity as lived and professed by billions of traditional christianity when you decided to be an atheist.
            The truth is, “the whole world is deceived” which means majority of professing Christians are following a false Christ of the human “Easter”(and Christmas) tradition! The true Christ of the scriptures specifically gave the sign of His messiahship as being in the grave for three days and three nights like the prophet Jonah who was in the belly of a great fish for the same number of days or seventy-two hours!
            The key to understanding this truth of the most paramount importance to avoid Satan’s deception is the mandatory understanding of the Jewish tradition of Sabbath which, rightfully is Biblical. Remember that Jesus was born to the Jews therefore, followed Jewish tradition of the Sabbath, of weekly and annually “high Sabbath” observations as holy. This holy Sabbath observation by the way is not “Jewish” because God instituted the observance of the Sabbath as a “memorial” pointing to God as the Almighty Creator and there were no tribes of Israel in existence yet as the only human creation with the spirit, that God created from a lump of clay and breathed life into his nostril was Adam!
            This alone will answer a lot of your doubts of The God of all creations and why the other gentleman claims there are only very few “true” Christians who are followers of the “true” Christ of the scriptures who died , was burried for 72 hours-three days, was resurrected and gives the “hope” of “the gift” of eternal life to those who believes in Him. If he was not resurrected, then there is no hope for all of mankind. Beware of the false-christ of the humanists as being portrayed by some movies like ‘The Davinci Code’ to add more confusion in this already confused world regardless of faith they may believe! Do not rely to your human guts or understanding but pray for the guidance of the Holy Spirit to lead you to all truths! God, the Almighty Creator is also the God of forgiveness and unconditional love! He wellcomes you through His Son Jesus Christ!

        • http://none Smoke

          strong text
          You took the words right out of my mouth. Halleluuujah

      • Jay

        Cassie, just when I think that I’ve heard naivety and thoughtlessness at its zenith, you come along and throw away every standard of right and wrong, every inkling of decency and rational thought and every possibility of hope for mankind. I suppose that’s what happened in Nazi Germany as well when all standards of good and evil were thrown away, but they didn’t have television, ipods or advanced electronic media to enhance the corruption process like modern socialist educators and the Godless reprobates of today have. You have just lived through a time of unparalleled prosperity, thanks to some men and women who feared and reverenced God. But you are so far removed from that generation that you can’t see how it was passed on to you. Peace and prosperity have been the exception throughout the ages on this planet and you were privileged enough to have just lived through such a short lived time frame. In all likelihood, that will be gone soon and you will be left to face the harsh reality of life in a time when the consequences for sin and the rejection of Gods standards replaces peace and prosperity. Most generations of women throughout history have known what it is to know hunger, cold, fatigue soldiers and criminals alternately marching through to take what they want, leaving pain and weeping in their wake. My guess is that you will know a much larger dose of such things in your lifetime, specifically because of the things that you have written above.

        • Cassie

          I indefinately stand by what I said, and I obviously think you are wrong. I guess only time will tell.

      • Tammy

        Well there is one simple way and you are sure to win John 3:16 For God So Loved The World That He Gave His Only Begotten Son That Whosoever Beleiveth In Him Should Not Perish But Have Everlasting Life.And you don’t have to stop at that verse.Beleive it or not there is a One & Only God and you have a choice God wants us all to beleive and repent for our sins but for you non beleivers every knee shall bow and will mouth will confess HIM JESUS CHRIST KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS! Beleive it or not one day you will see and that’s the truth.I will pray the Lord will touch your heart and you will beleive.God’s wish is that non should perish.There is a Heaven to Gain And A Hell to shun.

      • Carolyn

        **People can be moral and very civil but the fact is- we are born in sin since Adam, but being moral won’t get you to heaven.’Jesus came as a substitute for our sins and gave His Life that we could be saveds through His shed blood that washes us whiter then snow. But you have to go to the Cross and ask His forgiveness and believe that in Him to be forgiven.
        Anyone can believe what they seen; read your Bible and it will prove itself.
        Faith is the key and every day we see Bible Prophecy being fulfilled..
        Whether you believe or not is a free choice but denial will not change God’s Word.
        Satan caters to the flesh and that’s why so many are blinded to Truth!

      • NaNa

        Can’t wait to see you explain all that on Judgement Day, face to face with God.

  • Cassie

    Wow! Are you all INSANE! What the f*** are you talking about. Don’t you get it. It isn’t secularism that is holding us back. It is religion and especially Christianity. You say that the government has this collectivist mentality (which I have to agree) though Christianity and the church have the same thing. You said, “The crowd wants prepackaged truth and human freedom from government authority instead of using their own consciousness for making decisions and determining their own actions.” Well, no duh! But guess what. Christians want prepackaged truth and human freedom from the authority of God instead of using their own consciousness for making decisions and determining their own actions. If you seriously want to make your own decisions than why do you look for the bible to make those decisions. You said, “The state always considers that a self-sufficient and independent thinker is a threat to collectivism and its deception of the masses.” Uh, well couldn’t I just say the same thing about God. Isn’t it true that Christians believe that you should never question the bible? Can I ask you something? If you can’t question the bible and always have to follow what God says no matter what than how is that being an indepedent thinker? Aren’t you just being hypocritical? I just love discussions about this kind of thing, and I didn’t mean that I am against all Christians or even all religious people. Hell, my whole family is Christian. I just hate when religious people start ranting about stuff that they don’t even think through. And more importantly that everyone on the site pretty much agrees with them. Talk about collectivism!

    • Gary

      What the heck are you getting so ticked off about? It’s people like you who probably support the ‘hate’ speech bill currently slithering it’s way through congress, but from the venom I can see in your writing, you too are a very ‘hateful’ person. No one is telling you that you need Jesus Christ! If you don’t want to believe, fine! Then don’t! When you drop dead, you can live without God for the rest of eternity, in Hell. No one here is trying to stop you from that. Now leave, vermin!

    • http://Justemailme Pat Lemieux

      First of all, if U are a real Christian, U should know that our intellegence and God’s is not even close. If U were an independent thinker, a smart one, U would know that we don’t have the answer for everything. God does. There are a lot of things that were done in the Bible that make no sense to the common man. Jesus made a man smear spit and mud in his eyes so he could see. His ways and our ways are as close as the east and west. Those type of things should prove to U that His answers work. A real independent thinker finds the way to achieve.Although it doesn’t make sense to us does not mean it will not work. God’s ways cannot be stopped, we can, I think the common sense thing would be, to listen to words of wisdom from the Bible. If U think different, try to do something that the Bible says don’t.

    • George

      You can and should question the Bible. There are many incorrect translations of some verses. There are some verses that nobody really understands. Heck, even Jews do not agree on every thing in their (Old Testament) Bible.
      Faith without skepticism leads to myopia and fanaticism. Remember Holy Inquisition? Remember murder by burning people alive?

    • Trent Anderson

      Cassie, for one Christianity is not a religion. Following Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life. Without Him we are nothing. Christ lives in us to help us with our daily walk. I have deep remorse for the people that will not open up their eyes. God gives everyone the chance for ETERNAL life yet a minority is going to take advantage of the offer. I hate to be so blunt but you will bow to Jesus and confess that he is Lord. Everyone will have to face the judgement seat of Christ. I hope that you will give Him a chance to save your soul but he wont if you dont want to be saved. I say all this out of love and compassion. God bless.

    • Dickie

      You, are sooo stupid,You better pray you are right. I just hope GOD takes me with him.

    • Kim McGough

      Dear Cassie, there are a lot of things that religion is wrong about, Jesus Himself had to cope with false religion, and yet it was supposed to be the Mosaic Law that God gave to Moses. But man in the name of religion added his own laws to Gods laws. I would strongly suggest that you read for yourself Isaiah Chp 53 and go on reading. This was written several hundred years before the crucifiction of Jesus, and yet the Jews and the Romans fulfilled it to a T. If you would just try reading with an open mind, and also look at history, how things have been fulfilled according to the Bible prophecy, it might just amaze you how accurate it really is. I sure hope so. You know we could argue all day to no avail, but God can and will show you the truth if you are willing to see. It is up to you and it is your life now and later where ever you end up. There is just to much at stake not to at least give God a chance to reveal Himself to you. And you may email me with any questions anytime, I will not belittle you, but try to show you things in the Bible that might give you insight into why we believe in God and Salvation–Kim

      • Danver

        Well said Kim! I can sense your compassionate heart as being a true Christian!

    • Dottyj0

      The Bible and Jesus Christ are a better representation of God than anything else on the planet. The things of God are foolisness to you, because you don’t understand them. The Bible is a comentary on itself. It tells us that the fool has said in his heart, there is no God! You are free to believe what you want, just remember this; We are not trying to prove God to you. You are trying to disprove him by your argument. WE know that he exist. So do you! All of creation reveals it. Every watch has a watch maker. Just because you don’t know who made your watch, doesn’t mean that the watch evolved!!!!! You are attempting to disprove your own creator. Think the things you own can disprove that you own them? They are in animate things. They cannot denounce your ownership of them. God said all souls are mine. He also said that he loves you. But the soul that persist in sin shall die. You can’t change the fact that God does not exist, just because you don’t believe it. By the way, when you meet him, and you will, he will tell you so!!

  • The remnant, Pamela

    Great article: I put on the armor daily. See my story under weatherwarfare at This is spiritual warfare so get in the game and warn our people. Real non censored news is at You need it for your safety if living in America. Consider reading Ronald Weinlands free online or shipped books and the gnostic books of the bible. Love to all, the remnant/elohim, Pamela till the day, Pentecost 2012.

  • alien

    Soon the wrath of G-d will be revealed from heaven against all unrighteousness. The choice is simple really. Who are you going to serve, the Creator or the father of lies? If you are at peace with your choice Cassie, then why all the foaming at the mouth like a rabid wolf? If you really believe as you say, then all of us kooks will be proven wrong soon enough. In your heart of hearts, however, you know you cannot escape the coming judgment. It is not believers who frighten you but the icy breath of your own doom that chills you to your core. There is still time for you to turn from wickedness and serve the Living G-d. I pray that you will use it well.

    • Cassie

      Okay. First of all who is this father of lies you (alien) speak of? Because to tell you the truth the only people I serve are the ones that I care about, love, and respect. The only reason I don’t serve the Creator, as you put it, is because I just don’t think he exists. And do you (Gary) know why I get so ticked off? Its because people like you, tell me I am immoral because I don’t have the same viewpoints as you. How the hell can you call yourself Christian when you don’t even care if someone is going to hell or not? I guess it is all about you. Huh? I really want to know your viewpoint on that, because if it is true, from what I got from your reply, than I don’t think I am really the hateful one here. And to tell you (alien) the truth believers don’t frighten me. I am okay with believers. I even know and love some of them. My whole community is filled with believers and most of us get along fine. No, the only people that frighten me are the believers who harm other people because of their religious beliefs, and say that their god sent them to do it. Also that people discriminate against others because their bible says it is okay to. That really pisses me off, and those are the ones that really get on my nerves. Though, you seem like a sensible and moral person so I hope that I didn’t offend you or anyone else in any of my comments. I just wanted to get my view point out. Okay I got to go do my homework or I am going to fail out of U.S. History. Peace out!

      • George

        Joh 8:7 As they stood there asking him questions, he straightened up and said to them, “Whichever one of you has committed no sin may throw the first stone at her.”
        Joh 8:8 Then he bent over again and wrote on the ground.
        Joh 8:9 When they heard this, they all left, one by one, the older ones first. Jesus was left alone, with the woman still standing there.
        Joh 8:10 He straightened up and said to her, “Where are they? Is there no one left to condemn you?”
        Joh 8:11 “No one, sir,” she answered. “Well, then,” Jesus said, “I do not condemn you either. Go, but do not sin again.”

        No penitence? No Holocaust of a single dove? Not even 10 ourfathers or 20 holymarys?

        And the self-righteous, oh so very religious churchgoers were just about to butcher her.

        Luk 6:37 “Do not judge others, and God will not judge you; do not condemn others, and God will not condemn you; forgive others, and God will forgive you.

        Mat 7:1 “Do not judge others, so that God will not judge you,
        Mat 7:2 for God will judge you in the same way you judge others, and he will apply to you the same rules you apply to others.

        Mar 4:24 He also said to them, “Pay attention to what you hear! The same rules you use to judge others will be used by God to judge you—but with even greater severity.

        There are many other good things that came from religion or religious people. Like literacy, mass education (Jesuits), medicine, first ever hospitals (Leprosariums for lepers) or your personal morality. ( Compassion was considered a character weakness in English culture.) Even basis for theory of evolution and Copernican view of cosmos. European culture was preserved exclusively thanks to Irish monks during the Dark Ages. [How the Irish Saved Civilization (Hinges of History) by Thomas Cahill (– in Library?)].

        Have you read “Keys to (of) the Kingdom” by A.J.Cronin? It addresses the NON-conflict between Christians and atheists. Available in Public Libraries.

        Mat 16:19 I will give you the keys of the Kingdom of heaven; what you prohibit on earth will be prohibited in heaven, and what you permit on earth will be permitted in heaven.”

      • George

        Okay. First of all who is this father of lies you (alien) speak of?

        That’s satan.

        Joh 8:42 Jesus said to them, “If God really were your Father, you would love me, because I came from God and now I am here. I did not come on my own authority, but he sent me.
        That’s satan.

        Joh 8:43 Why do you not understand what I say? It is because you cannot bear to listen to my message.
        Joh 8:44 You are the children of your father, the Devil, and you want to follow your father’s desires. From the very beginning he was a murderer and has never been on the side of truth, because there is no truth in him. When he tells a lie, he is only doing what is natural to him, because he is a liar and the father of all lies.

      • Kim McGough

        Cassie, please ignore the belittlement from these people. The father of lies is Satan. Cassie there are many good moral people that are not believers, the trouble is that God teaches us that all have sinned and come short of the glory, but through the sacrifice of Jesus Christ sin can and will be forgiven, but only if you believe through faith and repent or ask forgiveness, even though your are a good moral person. Man was given the choice, and chose knowledge of good and evil, instead Gos’s way. God’s way is not hard, it is rather fun and fulfilling. Try it for yourself. Kim

  • Gary Thomas

    First, I think that you are making the same mistake that all American Christians make, the idea that Christianity is an individualistic faith (american myth), and not a collectivist faith. The early Christians were most certainly a community who shared a common belief, They took care of each other, provided for each other (had all things in common), took care of women and their kids and children left to die, and supported those who could not work.

    This co-mingling of southern conservative political and cultural values with Christian values hardly does any good to the gospell message or to the cause of Christ. And what you express has more to do with Ann Rand or Milton Friedman than anything I see in the bible.

    I find your statements to reflect a totally self-centered american idea of Christianity that is destroying the church, eg. if I had been the only person on the planet, Christ would have died for me. It’s all about me!

    Well, Christ did not die for me, he died for us, that means everyone on the planet, all of us together. It is not My Father, but Our father. This connotes community, not individualism as you express it.

    Catholics and orthadox understand this, evangelicals don’t. While i agree that we have a personal relationship with God, we also require a community of people sharing with and being accountable to each other to see fruit come forth. Most american churches have forgotten this. People sit in pews suffering while too afraid to be honest and share their faults, fears with each other.

    While I agree with you about the new world order coming into being, I also don’t see Christians escaping the same sort of collectivist thought that you condemn others of. In fact, I find evangelicals to be extremely unable or unwilling to use critical thinking when it comes to doctrine/dogma. The my way or the hiway approach, which every religion expresses. You show it in your own words. If you are not following my conservative view of things, than you are not a real Christian.

    I think that God is bigger than your narrow minded conservative views and works in ways that you don’t even understand because you are not open to them. Your conservatism has boxed you in and made you contempuous of God working in any other way than the one you believe. This is demiening to God.

    To think that individualism is the call and purpose of Christianity, is to miss the whole point of Christ’s teachings. Whatever you have done to the least of these, you have done to me.

    What we are seeing now economically is the outgrowth of individualism gone crazy, lifting me above us. Freidmanism, Ann Rand thinking, indiviualism, enlightened self-interest which really does not exist, and looked where it has led us, to the destruction of our economic system due to self-interest run nuts.

    Your viewpoint is one of self-detachment and non-connectedness, and not one that brings people together.

    The founding fathers were extremely concerned with what you depise as the common good and would have been appailed at what American individualism over the common good has become in our culture.

    If anything, II find your conservative attitude to be seriously non-christian, totally selfish, self-centered and self-serving. It reflects more to me of someone who has not totally given over his ego to Christ. I don’t think Christians are any different than any other religion when it comes to acceptance of doctrine/dogma without question. You do so in the column yourself.

    Individualism can become and is the great sin of pride that Christ ralled against. It has allowed evagelical Christians to embrace Friedman economics, the theories of Ann Rand through the economic positions of the republican and libertarian party, which make individualism and money making a god. Let me do what I want, no matter what it is and leave me alone.

    Government is not the evil you make it out to be, governement has its place. Read ROmans 13, to protect us from evil. Doesn’t this evil also include selfish people who place profits before people, making money before taking care of the poor.

    I appreciate my ability in this country to think for myself. As a product of Jesuit teachers, I was taught to critically think. Jesus was a radical thinker for his time, a liberal in his time. He uplifted people whom nobody else wanted. He railed against the political/economic/religious interests of the day and they killed him for it. He had much to say about the rich. How would he feel about Christians who elevate getting money above all else. He accepted all and was inclusive

    You have taken your conservative southern based cultural and polical views and made them Christian views, and this is a great mistake on your part for they have little to do with what Christ taught.

    The American church lacks power because it has lifted up a politcal/ecopnomic point of view and made it a god over God. What the unsaved see in us is the same they see in the culture at large, and views of intolerance and hate are the reason why many unsaved don’t want anything to do with us. They see Christians like Bush, DeLay, Reed, Ken Lay at Eron who espouse views like those you hold to and they ask me “how are Christians any different. They are just as greedy as everybody else.”

    Abandon all for Christ, that includes your conservative viewpoints. God is above all of this and you will never know Him until you let go of all of you preconceived notions and embrace Him as your only life. Then you will get off the backs of these people and allow God to be God in their lives. There is a God, and you’re not it.

    • Cassie

      Can I just say that you are my hero! Seriously if all Christians were like this I probably wouldn’t be an atheist right now. Wow! That is exactly how I feel. The whole time I was reading your reply I was just nodding my head and smiling. We need to stop putting our viewpoints before everyone else. People are so selfish these days. If you are the minority you hardly get any recognition. That is one of the greatest things about religion is that it brings everyone together in a community. Well, to me that is the only great thing about religion, but some Christians (evangelicals and fundamental christians) think they are better than everyone else. All, I have to say is that when you are an atheist you are definately discriminated against, but the more people discriminate the more we fight back.

      • Kim McGough

        Here again Cassie I see belittlement working against you. Jesus said to pray in this manner Our Father which also means daddy, the word is Abba, and you can read this in the book of Mathew. But for a personal walk with Jesus, it is one on one. If you want the truth you have to ask for with an open mind and heart. Preachers are there to share the Word of God with the church, the church being the believers at that house of God. The Holy Spirit also know as the teacher of all truth will lead you in the right direction and teach of Jesus. Was Jesus liberal, I would say no, but He did go against the organized religion of His day, because they had added to the Law. He openly defided them, and was hated by them then , is hated by religious leaders today for the same reason By the government because they were afraid of His teachings and you will find it true today of the government. By the way the Christain is hated more than the Jew, because of their belief in Jesus. the Jew is hate because they are the chosen of God, and Jesus was a Jew–Kim

    • George

      It is not our Father, it is our daddy.
      Abba means daddy not father.

    • Kerminator

      You are close to the real truth…

      The so called Christian Churches today talk a lot but in their hearts are far from the Word of God in their lives…

      Our position is to listen, learn, then if we have the faith; to accept the Grace of God; come to live the two Greatest Commandments! We will then be filled by the Holy Spirit of Promise and accept the Forgiveness; once we have forgiven, which is to live The Word!
      This is to strive to try to live sin free {not actually possible} and become a good and faithful bond servant {slave}…

      This is the beginning of the pathway on the road toward the Kingdom of God or Heaven! Becoming as a little child in Spirit!

  • Bob Eldridge

    Alot of ideas and doctrines being tossed arround in this group. This is one of the most discouraging points of todays religion. The Word is clear that Christ is the way, the Truth and the life. If you have real understanding, you will love the Truth as not to be decieved with the doctrines of men. Keep your eyes on Christ. You are wrong if you think you need men’s religion to find the Lord. There is no other way, there is no other Truth, nor is there any other life, outside of Christ. The world is full of deception, what you think to be true, is not. The Lord calls ALL to repent and believe His Word, and the ONLY way to recieve the Truth is by the spirit of God teaching you. You can think all you want and you will not recieve the Truth unless you submitt your life to Christ, not man, but Christ. The finial clock has begun, change your minds.

    • Gary Thomas

      At points in reading your article, I did not know if I was reading a Christian teacher or someone who is a advocate of Ann Rand. Your ideas about collectivism and individualism come right out of Atlas Shrugged, not the bible. IDeas like the collective are decieved by autristic nonsense, or the collective wants government to tell it what to do, self-sufficient individualism is all there is. This has more to do with Rand than Christ. It certainly does not reflect what was taught in the first century church.

      So, who is your influence, Ann Rand, or Jesus Christ.

      What is more important to you, conservatism or Christ.

      Luke’s gospel is all about social justice, Do you believe in that as the church’s mission or has your thinking have you beleiving that all poor are welfare bums. How about child care for those who are trying to get off welfare. I worked with welfare to work women, I know what they go through to try to improve themselves. Have you ever been poor yourself? How much have you done through self sufficientcy? How many times have you needed others?

      Are you one that believes that universal health care is socialism? How about babies that die because of lack of pre-natal care or moms who find themselves in financial difficulty. Are you aware that the early church took care of these. The church has abandoned many of these women in building buildings and palaces, yet, you say government is an evil force that should do nothing for them.

      Are you personally taking care of any single moms who kept their children?

      Aren’t we called by the bible to do so?

      You claim that others are deceived because they think there are positives to govenment yet the whole collectivism/individualism argument you make originated from the words of a woman who was an atheist who deprised everything Christian.

      What I find appalling is that you don’t seem to recognise where these ideas originated, and you seem to have taken Rand’s ideas and tried to twist them into a Christian conservative framework that you hold to. What I find frustrating as your brother in Christ is that anyone who perhaps does not have the same right wing agenda as you, are often labled as not being Christian or Christian enough, and then the argument closer that shuts down all discussion, you use the need to submit to Christ who is the truth. We know that.

      What I have to ask again, is who is your Lord, Jesus or Rand?

      Mature love casts out fear. No one of us is capable of that without Christ.

      Jesus is the way, truth and life and it is up to him to teach us who He is, but that does not neglect the fact that we were meant to be part of a community. Many of us are leaving the organised church and forming home communities where we can worship Christ in truth without the sort of pollution by man made doctrine, including yours.

      Yes, the organized Christian church is in the hands of the corporations, I agree with that. Our Christian bookstores, record labels and Christian publishing companies are owned by multi-nationals and I never hear Christians crying out about this.

      But while you condemn collectivism, you fail to see how you have brought into ideas that come from the very root that you depise. Satan has many ways of deceiving us. Are you so sure you are not being decieved as well through your elevation of Rand’s ideas?

      When I see Ann Rand in your ideas rather than Christ then I have the option of using Christ and His word as my filter to judge your ideas. To regard democracy in the same terms as communism shows the ignorance of your position. Are you suggesting that the founders of that country were wrong is establishing America as a democratic representative republic?

      So what are you advocating, a theocracy based on your views of the bible and conservative positions or is what you are doing elevate ego, gives you the position of being right and others wrong who are being led by the Lord but somehow do not see things as you do.

      Religion is for people who are scared of going to hell, Jesus Christ is for people who have already been there.

      I have already lived in Hell, My Lord saved from this hell of my own creation. I have no desire to substitute that hell for a legalistic one. Been there, done that. I need my brothers and sisters. Without them, I cannot make it. Any man who thinks he is an island unto himself is being deceived. We need each other and that is what I find to be so represensable about what you advocate.

      So, again, who is your Lord, Ann Rand, conservative politics, or Jesus Christ.

      • Kim McGough

        Right on Bob and to Gary, yes we need our brothers and sisters in Christ, for support, to pray for us, to be there when we fall, to rejoice with us to cry with us and such. But we still need that one on one with Jesus Christ, which gave His life for all that would believe and be saved, His peace, His comforting presence, when the rest are not around, remember Jesus Is always there when no one else is. Kim

  • alien

    No offense taken Cassie. I wish you well. So Jesus was a liberal. That is not scripture, that is marxist propaganda. Gary, you are not a god either and your marxist, nwo, ecumenical drivel is devoid of any rational thought process. You seem to have a problem with Americans and particularly southern Americans. Don’t speak of intolerance in others until you clean up your own house you hypocrite. With that said I agree with you that modern so-called believers have sold their souls in large numbers for political ideology and tax exempt status. The greatest malefactors on that score, however, have been catholic jesuit luciferians who seek to nullify the Word of the Creator through their traditions and political activism of the “social gospel”. They promote their new world order at the expense of the blood of the innocent. They seek to hide the wicked deeds of their abominable, child molesting clergy rather than repent of their idolatry and worship of the babylonian pantheon of false gods. The fact that there are apostates in the world by no means nullifies the Word. On the contrary it confirms what has been written from the beginning. Salvation is not in tolerance or in making things palatable for any degenerate viewpoint that comes along. Salvation lies in faith in the sacrifice of the Messiah and in obedience to his Word, without which your faith is dead. If you say you love Him and do not keep his Commandments you are a liar. The G-d of the Universe has already laid down the standard by which all things will be measured in his Word. If you have a problem with that take it up with Him. It is not man you will have to give an accounting to but the Living G-d. That will be an individual accounting, not collective. And it is Ayn Rand by the way you pseudointellectual phony.

    • Gary Thomas

      I am not a pseudonintellectual nor a liberal but I have spent 14 years studying the early pre-catholic church and I know what message they were transmitting and it is certainly not like what I hear in churches today.

      And yes, they were communities, not every man until himself. Middle eastren culture is collectivist and Jesus was not an American with individualistic views, He was a Jew, and he stressed communities of people who loved each other and loved Him. Why do you have a hard time with this?

      I am a Christian who follows the Lord in whatever I do and I am not a marxist who promotes radical left wing thinking, but I do not believe that Christianity can exist without a community that we are accountable to, notice I did not say organized church, but a community of like minded people who hold each other accountable to honesty, and sharing and willingness to surrender. Many of these are in homes and not buildings. I attend one on Thursday nights. And these people are rigerously honest and real and love Jesus no matter what. I hope you have a community like that.

      y the way, you seem to have a hard time accepting that Jesus was a liberal in His culture? He certainly was not conservative, that would have meant submitting to the status quo and the religious system of His day. He certainly did not. Had He done so, there would have been no Christian communities, no sacrifice on the cross, no Christians.

      He railed against the religfious/economic systems of His day and they killed him for it. What would he say about Christians who advocate the philosophies of Ayn Rand more than what He taught.

      The gospel of Luke is all about Social Justice, Have you read it, taken in its words, its meanings. Why then do you have a problem with social justice for all. Is it perhaps you have brought into an American myth of rugged individualism, which once existed but doesn’t really anymore as if it ever did. Have you ever read Jefferson, Washington, Franklin, the federlist papers to see what our founders intended?

      There are over 2,000 scriptures that talk about taking care of the poor. You don’t want government to do it, so what are you doing to care for the poor in your community.

      As far as my feelings about southern political/cultural positions, what are your positions, are they truly christian or based upon the classism/racism that william F. Buckley and other founders of the modern conservative movement which started in the south believed. Those who said the only people capable of ruling this country are rich, white people. Have you ever read Buckley, can you justify this sort of thinking with what you read in the bible?

      You call me a hypocrite, yet what about the log in your own eyes. Oviously, you don’t think much of catholics or much of others who don’t believe as you do and have plenty of judgments about them. Your way is the only right Christian way. How much has that got to do with your ego and proving yourself right, than following the way of Christ. I know I am guilty of that at times and need to repent of it, even for what I write in this missive.

      How about evalgelicals who sold out their businesses to multi-nationals so much so that all Christian book publishing companies and record labels and book stores are owned by corporations. Their owners sold out because it was a good business deal. Is that the new Christian way or would Christ be turning over the tables olf the moneychangers who pollute the cause of Christ.

      Yes, it is Ayn Rand, so are you more a follower of hers, or Christ? Have you ever read Atlas shrugged. Do you not know that this book is part of what the NWO is using as a propaganda machine to gain control of everything by the corporations. This was the most popular book in the boardrooms of multi-national corporations for many years. Yet. is what she advocates truly Christian as Christ taught it or something that our selfish self-centered egos want to hear?

      Yet, this entire missive we responded to seems to reflect Rand more than Christ. Why is that??

      So, do you keep His commandments in all things? Have you truely surrendered everything to Him including all of your ideas? Do you care for the poor or regard them as bums who could not take advantage of opportunity in America.

      There is no room for racism/classism in the body of Christ. Are you truly free of this. Do you seek the word for truth or do you take everything your pastor says as gospel?

      There are those of us who care deeply for those who are disadvantaged and poor or disabled. I have my current ministry because as a disabled person, a government agency provided the funds to for me to go to school. You would probably call me evil for depending upon the government. Yet, God used the government to help me find my way into a ministry I have been in for 14 years.

      I spent 4 years working with welfare to work women.. Their number one need is child care. Yet, no churches in my area were willing to provide this for them, except for Catholic Charities. Are they evil or anti-Christ for doing so. Or are they following what they beleive Christ called us to. And then, why did not any evangelical churches offer the same?

      We are all prisoners of our ideas and perceptions and will have no peace until we reject all that we have been taught and surrender all to Christ so He can teach us who he is. I try to do this on a minute by minute basis and found that the Lord I know is loving, caring, tolerant compassionate and loves all of His kids. My behavior misses the mark (sin), but I am willing to change it when He makes me aware of it. I am willing to change my stinking thinking for His thinking when He makes me aware of it.

      Some know Him, some know religion, with some He is waiting for them to call out to Him. Do you not think that He knows when He is being called. Do you think what name or label they call out to Him with matters when they call, what if they never heard of Christ, do you not think He will answer.

      Let go of all of your man made conceptions and practice what you beleive. Its actions that mean everything, words are nothing if the spirit of Christ is not behind them. you know that. Be that to others, that is all He is asking for from any of us. The rest is legalism and the law, and you know what Paul said about the law.

      So, are you a lawman or a Christ man. Only you can answer that. Only Christ led actions will tell others what is in your heart. The rest is meaningless if you haven’t surrendered all to Him.

      Lord, Lord didn’t we do (whatever) depart from me evil doers, I don’t know You. Maybe a church in self-will run riot needs to be reminded of that.

      Peace be yours


        It is the catholic “church”, Gary, that has declared a multitude of times, that there is no salvation outside of the catholic “church”; even as recently as this year. I do believe that there are some true christians within your government, for that is what the catholic “church” is, a government. For an organization to depend so heavily upon the thick guise of false piety, there are bound to be those who find the truth, that there is only ONE name given among men wherein we MUST be saved, and that is Jesus Christ.

        This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner. Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.” (Acts 4:11,12)

        But the fact that some would find the truth and either secretly nurture their new found faith and individual relationship with Christ, or openly reject the ecclesiastical crime syndicate called the catholic church, is of little concern to it’s leadership. It is just “a means to an end.” It doesn’t matter how much you throw the name of Jesus Christ around, Gary, the fact that a self proclaimed atheist has praised you for your beliefs in that they quite comfortably accomidate her rejection of Christ, reveals the true agenda of your Jesuit training. The fact that the society of Jesus was created to crush and destroy protestantism and freedom to worship God directly and individually, is undeniable. The unholy Roman empire has suppressed the reading of God’s word for centuries. The last thing they wanted was for the common people to study the scriptures for themselves and find that it does not jive with the overwhelming deluge of traditions and superstitions enforced by the “collective.”

        “But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in [yourselves], neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.” (Math 23:13)

        The same persecutions that the Christians endured under Caesar became the same after the pagan Constantine, along with the bachus priests of Mithra Seth masked their religion with the trappings of the aryan gnostic perversion of Christianity being spawned out of Alexandria Egypt. After changing the names of their well established idols to accomidate more Christian-friendly personalities, they made no amends and continued to slaughter those who would not seek safety under their new found umbrella of deception. After that it was just a matter of slowly dismantling the doctrines of Christ and replacing them with the traditions and superstitions of men. Those arrogant superstitious whited sepulchres sent millions to the stakes, torture chambers, and guillotines for standing for their individual faith in Jesus Christ. They also tweaked the old stories surrounding the plethora of ancient gods (demons) that they worshipped such as Isis, Osiris, and Horus, in order to make Christianity seem like a seamless retelling of the old myths and Christ as building upon the teachings of the mystery schools of Babylon.

        “And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication: And upon her forehead [was] a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH. And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.” (Rev 17:4-6)

        The most heinous evil is that which is closest to the truth. Looking at all of the pathetic pomp and regalia that is pumped out of the Vatican while the poor grovel at the gates reminds me of the true story Jesus told in Luke 16.

        “There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:…And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham’s bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.”

        The Vatican has amassed enough wealth over the ages to feed the world’s poor 100 fold for the next millenia, yet their miniscule amount of philanthropy is always flaunted for all to see. There is not a single, yea, not even one nuance of doctrine within the unholy Roman empire collective that can be backed by even a punctuation mark within God’s Holy Word. The Vatican is the collective that thrives on suppressing the word of God, and free thought. because it spells her demise. Yet leaders of the world, regardless of their professed religion, bow the knee and fulfill her will, sending mother’s sons off to war to fulfill her collective new world order agenda.

        “And here [is] the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth….And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.” (Rev 17:9,18)

        There is only one city that both reigns over the kings of the earth and sits atop seven hills, Vatican city. Mystery Babylon is not a country, it is a city. It is the same city that houses the high priest of the mystery religions of Babylon, it’s CIA/military (Jesuits) and the seat of Satan over the soon coming new world order.

        For the Christian, we are one in Christ alone. He is our collective body and spirit. For all man made religions, there is no liberty, nor freedom, no true “critical thinking.” For all thought and actions must not disagree with the belly of the Beast.

        • http://yahoo marie

          strong text

          You can judge a tree by the fruit it bears,wheather it be good ,or bad.(true saying). Eureclydon, here it is year of 2009,and you wrote words of wisdom back in dec.2009. this show that words never is lost in the right time of a person ,it will come about. with written this,I would like to write some fruit of thoughts. I am the least of all,but a child of God,through belief of Jesus Christ,knowing who he really is ,also becouse he gave his life freely on the cross,he died,yet he arose and alive today, I was not yet born when he came to earth,brought about by God.By faith I belive,taught through the spirit,seeking the truth,searching his Word, also I love reading of Life history,guess that is the flesh part of me.I look at my self as being a pilgrem here on earth, on the road of life to my real home.I believe the mind is a open battle field ,what we aclumate need to be guided by the holy spirit,If we have strong faith in Jesus Christ,Knowing being absent from the body,is to be present with the Lord.I have no fear.For he said he would never leave us,he would go all the way.I have been on the mountian,He was there. I have been in the Valley,He was there. I have learnt that when I am in the vally, is when he give me food to trust him more,and to give him Praise,becouse that is when I call up on him,becouse he is the only one I trust to help me through the storm.I get real close to him. I know Jesus is alive. becouse in the valley I can feel him close by me.I dont deserve his Love,mercy,.If only the unbelivers could only seek him,instead of running away from him.Justice ,love,goodnesscomes from God in Jesus Christ.Only evil come from Lusfer. hate,murder.sation works through children of his, through temptation , lie,envy,heartace"s.I donot judge unbelivers,My heart goes out to them.A person mind is a open field for spiritual and principality. ones mind work with the heart. there is peace with in of God children,they have hope.what does unbleaver have? is that why they always try to prove there is no God? fear of their own soul? The battle has been going on since the begaing of time,it will conture to the end of time.Then they will know the truth.being 72 years old I am close to the end of the road,soon I will be going home.I am a sinner,saved by faith in Jesus christ GRACE,this is my beliefe and Hope. Thank you for your words of wisdom.may God Bless you richley.

        • http://yahoo marie

          I made an error in previsor letter to you. I put the letter I read of your was dated dec,2009, instead of dec. 2008. Please forgive me. I only notice it after I sent it to you.

      • George

        Do you care for the poor or regard them as bums

        Luk 16:20 There was also a poor man named Lazarus, covered with sores, who used to be brought to the rich man’s door,
        Luk 16:21 hoping to eat the bits of food that fell from the rich man’s table.
        (Trickle down?)
        Even the dogs would come and lick his sores.
        Luk 16:22 The poor man died and was carried by the angels to sit beside Abraham at the feast in heaven. The rich man died and was buried,
        Luk 16:23 and in Hades, where he was in great pain, he looked up and saw Abraham, far away, with Lazarus at his side.

        why did not any evangelical churches offer the same?

        They do not have to DO anything. They are already “Saved”.

        Mat 25:35 I was hungry and you fed me, thirsty and you gave me a drink; I was a stranger and you received me in your homes,
        Mat 25:36 naked and you clothed me; I was sick and you took care of me, in prison and you visited me.’
        Mat 25:37 The righteous will then answer him, ‘When, Lord, did we ever see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you a drink?
        Mat 25:38 When did we ever see you a stranger and welcome you in our homes, or naked and clothe you?
        Mat 25:39 When did we ever see you sick or in prison, and visit you?’
        Mat 25:40 The King will reply, ‘I tell you, whenever you did this for one of the least important of these followers of mine, you did it for me!’
        Mat 25:41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Away from me, you that are under God’s curse! Away to the eternal fire which has been prepared for the Devil and his angels!
        Mat 25:42 I was hungry but you would not feed me, thirsty but you would not give me a drink;
        Mat 25:43 I was a stranger but you would not welcome me in your homes, naked but you would not clothe me; I was sick and in prison but you would not take care of me.’
        Mat 25:44 Then they will answer him, ‘When, Lord, did we ever see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and we would not help you?’
        Mat 25:45 The King will reply, ‘I tell you, whenever you refused to help one of these least important ones, you refused to help me.’
        Mat 25:46 These, then, will be sent off to eternal punishment, but the righteous will go to eternal life.”

    • George

      Divide and RULL – that’s satan’s game.

      Joh 13:34 And now I give you a new commandment: love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another.
      Joh 13:35 If you have love for one another, then everyone will know that you are my disciples.”

  • alien

    You are quite right that Yeshua is the Jewish Messiah. So when he said he did not come to destroy the law or the prophets was he being liberal or conservative in your view? When he said not one jot or tittle of the law would pass away until all was fulfilled was he promoting some “social justice” theory or the commandments of the Almighty. What the Messiah, in fact, criticized was the corruption of the law that was pure and holy and just from the beginning. This corruption arose from the teaching of the rabbis that their oral traditions superceded the Torah given by the Creator, just as catholics teach the infallibility of papal doctrine. Yeshua, at no point in time, nullified the Torah. In fact He said those who break the Commandments and teach others so would be least in the Kingdom of Heaven. It is certainly faith that is counted for righteousness. That is what the Torah teaches. Yet justification by faith is not license to simply live any way you please. I am not defending protestant churches here. I also agree with you that many have failed to follow the commandments of G-d to care for widows and orphans and the strangers and homeless. Catholics are not evil because they occasionally feed the poor. They are evil because they worship idols and men. This is expressly forbidden by both Torah and by the scriptures of the renewed covenant. They are the modern manifestation of the babylonian mystery cults that pre date christianity and would be better characterized as mithraism. Their doctrine bears no resemblance to the messianic jewish faith of first century believers any more than most modern protestant denominations that also practice pagan idolatry assimilated from their history as part of pagan catholicism. Does that mean rank and file catholics are consciously practicing evil? Not in every case as many are simply deceived. There is mercy and grace available to anyone, but not without repentance. If you have studied the early believers for 14 years then you should be aware that they did not abandon Torah or the Commandments of G-d but affirmed them. The corruption came when the true faith was hijacked by the romans, ultimately culminating in the creation of a pagan hybrid state religion under Constantine and the corruption of the scriptures to that end. By that time Jewish and faithful Gentile believers had been excluded from congregations and driven underground as the pagan practices were assimilated into so-called christianity. They exchanged the truth of G-d for a lie and began to worship the creation rather than the Creator. So then government involvement in religion has done nothing but bring corruption and enslave people to the religious system of the beast. As for the notion of collectivism in the early congregations of believers, the all things common idea was a limited practice of the believers in Jerusalem and was at no point a Commandment. Even this has been corrupted by the wholly inadequate translation from already corrupted greek manuscripts and must, as such, be measured against Torah. What they were actually doing was keeping Torah in the year of tithing to bring a tenth of their goods to distribute between the widows and orphans and aliens living among them and to the Levites. They then shared meals in common during their time in Jerusalem. This cannot be understood correctly when you trample the majority of the Word under foot and toss out the majority of scripture to follow the false teaching of catholic/ pharisaic dogma. The scripture also says that if a man will not work then he should not eat. So how many of the people you “minister” to are capable of working? I would venture to say most of them. If you are helping them toward that end you are doing well, yet your social gospel has no power to save anyone because it requires nothing of them, not even belief. It is the same old false doctrine of assimilation. That is the form of godliness that denies the power therof. Many will say in that day Lord, Lord have we not done many good works in your name. He will respond to them “depart from ME you workers of lawlessness.”

    • Gary Thomas

      First, I am not a Catholic. I agree with many of your premises regarding the Catholic church. Jesuits taught me how to use my brain to critically think. No where does it say that when I accepted Jesus as my Lord and Savior I was to leave my brain at the altar. Critical thinking is necessary to form true judgments about issues, particularly in the ministry I have.

      I agree that the church kept the bible from people, and that communities were controlled by the church (much as they are today by churches). That is not what I am talking about when I say community. I mean people who love the Lord and love each other, who encourage each other and are honest and real with each other. I see the church of this age in the home, with people studying and being open, honest and real with each other, a lay church.

      However, I find Conservatives in the body of Christ are more into the law as a savior and not Jesus, despite words to the contrary. If I were able to keep the law, I wouldn’t need Jesus for my salvation and my hope. My past experience includes an extremely conservative body where I was made to feel that I could not do anything right in the eyes of God. The law was preached so hard, that I felt inadequate to do anything for God.

      No where was the idea of surrender to Christ so that he can use me taught, or the fact that God loves me no matter what. That His love for me was unconditional, not based upon my actions but because I am His child. The law only teaches a conditional love, follow these rules and God will love you, don’t follow these rules and He won’t .

      I fell away from the church for years because of this until a more loving body showed me His love, the love that heals. They were mature enough to understand that God is working in me to show me His way and what I do is out of love for Him, and not because of the law. I don’t sin with His help because I love Him with all of my heart, and not because I am scared of hellfire. I have already been in hell of my own making, He saved me from that.

      My argument is that the protestant church and american church has strayed from the truth in its lust for money and power. This original missive seems to reflect more the teachings of Ayn Rand than the bible in regard to collectivtism and individualism than what I see in the bible.

      And, in the early hx of this country, Christians persecuted other Christians, eg. Fundamentalists killing quakers in Mass, Baptists in Virginia, which is where the separation of church and state comes from, the freedom to worship God in any way you see fit.

      You make a big thing about the Torah. Jesus expressed what many in the moderate school of Hillel taught. Love God, Love your neighbor as yourself, that is the whole of the torah. If we are truely in Love with Jesus, we will not do things that are displeasing to Him out of love, not the law. It is a love relationship, not a law based relationship, We will not do self-destructive things out of respect for the temple He has given us, and we will love our neighbor in the spirit of Christ like love whether they are Christians or not.

      Salvation is not a justification to do what I want whenever I want it as you rightly say. If you believe that the law is everything, than what about Paul. Are his teachings concerning the law hereditcal? Here was a law man to end all law men, who was knocked down by the Lord, went through a paradim shift, and who spent years in the desert leaning upon the Lord to teach him what He had just showed him. If you want the law, then you must follow all of it. The law cannot save you, only Jesus can.

      Is not that the point of Paul’s teachings, that it is a love relationship?

      Conservatives are as guilty of taking scripture out of context as anyone else is, The Rapture doctine is nothing more than an American distortion of Paul’s sayings. Frankly, if I get hit by a car tomorrow and die, that’s the end of times for me.

      Frankly, I think you have missed the point of my writing, which was that while we are individuals in Christ, we are also part of a body. We need each other, we are to be connected to each other in a relational way. As I said, for many of us who have left the organized church because of the corruption inherit within in, we are coming together to worship Christ in lay bodies. That is where the power of Christ can come through the body. All organized churches, Catholic or protestant are corrupt in their control. I know this, and I reject it for this reason. However, the older I get in Christ, the further away I get from religion and the law. He is my guide, He is my live, I need no other.

      • Trent Anderson

        Gary i agree with you there man as far as just needing Christ. But to say Jesus is a liberal is insane. Liberalism is not love. You see I think you have missed the point. Jesus GAVE his life. They didnt take it from him. Liberalism robs people of what they earned and gives it out to bums. If someone wants to give to the poor that should be their decision not the governments. You have been brain washed but if you have Jesus man all this stuff does not matter. God Bless.

      • Kim McGough

        S C it is sad to see the people of the church, who are supposed to be the church being misled. Most churches today have pulled away from the truth, and are not being led by the Spirit, I saw in this last election people of the church voting their bank accounts rather that what is Godly. I have started turning off preachers, because the truth is nowhere to be found in what they are saying. Doctrines of men have taking over in so many churches today, and that is just what the people want. Take a look at their compromizes, evening services where the young adults are out in their gym playing ball with the teenagers and younger children, only the elderly are being preached to.

      • Kim McGough

        Gary T,sorry about S C’s reply getting into your area. But now take a look at couple of things you said, Separation of Church and State is no where to be found in the constitution, just a letter between a Baptist minsiter and Tomas Jefferson. Just simply the government will not establish a church and the church will not run the government. Now for rapture doctrine, the word rapture is not in the Bible although the term catching away is and means the same thing. The dead in Christ shall arise first then those of us which remain will be caught up with them into the clouds. No your time here is not the end, but the beginning, study to find it, I did, The word Trinity is not in the Bible either, but the term godhead is. The Father, The Savior Jesus Christ, and the Comforter (Teacher) Holy Spirit. I am proud that you found a family of God for your needs, but there is nothing like the one on one with Jesus–Kim

  • S C Mailen, Jr.

    It is so sad to see so many people making it easy for evil forces. First, people need to realize that American churches have the same mentality/lack of character as our leaders in DC. Where does the Bible say to waste untold wealth buliding churches? Where does the Bible say to put absolute trust in leaders who do NOT lead? Where does the Bible say to believe preachers who interpret the Bible the same way generations of wackos do the Constitution? Where does the Bible say to “partner” with the government?
    Our “leaders” (secular and otherwise) have sold out America. We have the best government [leadership] m o n e y can buy. The same is true with religion, medicine, education, the media and – eventually – science.
    Look in the mirror, people. THINK! Get it right.

  • KP

    Global religious “collectivism” has its roots in the theology of Cain. Today, there is a global agenda amongst various religions saying there are many paths to God, global ecumenicalism. The attempt by the religious world to unite all, Catholicism, Islam, Buddism, Hinduism and any other “isms”. The cause of this? They’re all basically the same. Their core theology is based on human good, man’s attempt to gain the approbation of God through self-righteousness. Personal sacrifices, goods works. Anything but the work of Jesus Christ. The Bible is clear you must be perfect. None of us are perfect and no one can become perfect through human performance. Perfection is a gift from God, a judicial status he imputes to anyone who agrees with the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ, an issue of faith. Not validated by its fervor, but the object it beholds, Jesus Christ. The suffering endured by Jesus Christ, while on the cross, was sufficient to satisfy God the Father’s demand for justice regarding the penalty of all human sin, unlimited atonement. The work of salvation is complete. Sin, to the extent of penalty, spiritual death, is dead. God no longer impute sin. Sin destroys lives, yes. But, to the extent of penalty it is dead.

    Back to Cain. An old divide is coming back. The future is grim. Those promoting world religious unification boast of tolerance. They say they’re the enlightened ones. For they claim there are many paths to God. But, don’t be deceived. There’s is really one path disguised as many. The path of Cain, self-righteousness, human good. And, be assured they hate the one path to God minority, the “extremists”, the “fundamentalists”. We’re the intolerant, they say.

    Know this. The liberty of the gospel is available to all. An issue of free will, personal responsibility. And, repentance is a change of mind preceding faith whereby one is pointed to Jesus Christ, the end of the law, to obtain as a free gift, what they were trying in vain to obtain through obedience to the law or any system of morality, salvation. Remember this. It’s about the soul. Not race, gender, sexual orientation. Thus, with just a few moments of thought(directed to the gospel), one can receive eternal life.

    Enough said.

    KP, a sinner delux, but made pure through faith

  • Ken McClellan


    Reference your question: Are we that far from God as a nation that we don’t get it?

    The answer is Yes. Start reading the Book of Revelation very carefully.

    Matthew 16:3

    • Trent Anderson

      God? Who is God? jk Yes we have. Judgement is coming folks rather you like it or not. Its so easy to see. The countries that were founded on God prospered. The countries that arent well look at Africa. We are so blessed here in the US its ridicoulous yet we are a bunch of ungrateful heathen that think that putting stuff in our noses and tongues is cool. Well the end is near. The beasts and the one world government will soon come. Frankly I hope Im first to get killed for Christ. This is such a beautiful planet we live on yet we seem to think everything just happenened on accident. There is so much intelligent design here yet no many people see it. Do you know how complicated photosynthesis is? Life depends on it for more then one reason. People will soon see. It will be a sad time. A very sad time indeed. God bless.

      • Cassie

        And if there were a God, I think it very unlikely that He would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence.

  • chris adkins

    Trolls seem to be every where nowadays. <><

  • KP

    One other thing. The last piece of the puzzle may be the Ephah. Anti-semiticism, global religion(Cain), the “lukewarm” church, decline of America, rise of the EU(old Roman Empire), Russia, China’s military growth, international accounting standards, consolidation of world stock markets, regathering of the Jews, significant technological advancement are all trends easy to see for the biblical discerner. But, few see the Ephah. Where is it going? To the land of Shinar. The “wicked woman” is looking for her home. I believe, old Babylon will be resurrected from the near dead. Oil will be its life blood. Iraq is being readied. In the next few years, the world will help to rebuild Iraq and Babylon. And, either the United Nations or a similar organization may make its home in Babylon. I’m getting a head of myself. But, you almost have to to keep up. If there’s a gap between the translation and the seven year treaty, then the end of this dispensation may be sooner than expected.

    • Trent Anderson

      Its on us like white on rice man.

  • Dani

    I just want to say that i completly agree with everything gary has to say :)

  • KP

    At the top it says join the conversation. What conversation? This is a children’s playground. I’d rather talk to a troll. Mr. Livingston you might want to check IDs.

    See ya.


  • Denny Moore


  • Ed

    Ignorance abounds in Christianity today. Our babylonian government basis
    many of its foreign aid as well as military decisions upon the belief that the
    State of Israel is as they claim to be, Abraham’s seed, heirs according to the promise, and God’s chosen people living in the their holy land. However.
    the apostle Paul explains who the identity of the true seed of Abraham and
    the intent of the promise.
    Galatians 3;16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made.
    He saith not ,And to seeds, as of many; but as of one,AND TO THY SEED, which is Christ.!!

    So the holy land belongs to Abraham and to Christ!!!……And then Paul
    explains. Galatians 3;29 And if you be Christ’s then are you Abrahams seed and heirs according to the promise. The promise land dosen’t
    belong to the jews,who do not accept or recognize Christ, but to CHRISTIANS!
    i’ve only covered a smidgen of the truth about the holy land but enough
    to help you realize that government decisions are almost always based
    upon lies,half-truths, errors, and a sizeable amount of selfrighteousness
    which seems to emninate from Washington.

    • V.Mayes

      You are so right !

  • Socrates

    “The collectivist mentality lures mankind into guidance from “higher authorities” (government).” The most poignant of higher authorities is God! Unless that God is understood to be contained within and not reverved as exterior authority, then the collectivist trap is alive and well within the Christian religion… and I don’t see Christianity not using a superior exterior.

    All religion is wrong in that they rely on fear to control the masses. They rely on faith to block honest inquiry. They ignore idividualism for reverent collectivism and sacrafices for belief in God. That sacrafice being ruthless honesty for consciousness awareness and true evolution… not in faith but in an undieing passion for conscious honesty and widescope thinking…. exploring, questioning, introspecting, contemplating everything to get the whole and complete picture. No exterior authority can subvert the only way to all justice when the individual is aware that he holds the key. Within is contained the blueprint of everything and science is now honing in on that (see The Universe as a Hologram ).

  • Patti

    “The Christian faith is the only religion that cannot be manipulated in favor of one worldism or universalism sometimes called the New World Order. “… I assume you are referring to the true church, the one Jesus started.

    The majority of the visible Church is far from Christian. They have joined the Roman Catholic Church in their desire for ecumenism, and are pushing for “unity” with non-Christian religions throughout the world. Jesus said to preach the gospel, He did not say to go and unite with them that hate Me. I just can’t see the Apostle Paul or Peter seeking unity with the priests of the Temple of Diana or Zeus or any other false god.

    Only the true Christian church will refuse to be manipulated… by anyone.

  • AMP

    I think many people in the name of Christianity have misguided people around the world. Christian religion has been commercialized for the personal interest. There are many religions in the world and all the religions must be respected regardless how big or small they are. There is no need to force or convince the people to believe in only one religion.

  • s c

    Many people have been agonizingly slow to realize that “Christianity” has been manipulated for many years in the US. Where were church leaders when government kicked God out of school? Where were they when they should have told parents to take their kids out of public schools? Did religious leaders REALLY get offended by abortion?
    Face facts, people. The best way to describe religion in the US is APOSTATE. Millions of Americans have been dumbed-down, and they feel uncomfortable in choosing sides when morality is involved.
    When the economy implodes, don’t be surprised to hear so-called church leaders tell us to have faith in government – and don’t forget to write a big check to help build more APOSTATE churches.

  • http://Huh? Johnny


  • http://Huh? Johnny

    It is my observation that while the Bible talks of the poor and relationships, the rest of the world needs mathematics to adequately describe what is going on there outside of human behavior. That God made the world and then man is shown plainly in the Bible.
    So why is mathematics left out so much in what people talk about concerning religion? Because typically people get stuck only to the Bible’s words as though this is all God did was to make people.
    With mathematics rampaging on its ability to describe ever better what the world is doing, then what is it that it is describing?
    First let me set the stage here. There are many characters in the human race of which a few are of interest here to me. Namely the power-hungry who like control of people and the peasant who basically wants to be told what to do. Not all people of the world fit these two catagories thank goodness!
    But it is these two which make history that shows up in the history books and is so ably described in story form in the Bible.
    Then there is mathematics. It is describing a Universe that is beyond imagination. It is beautiful, violent beyond my understanding, huge and has lots of stuff moving ever about. Mathematics has begun to acquire the abiltity to describe all this stuff moving about. Wow!
    Indeed, some of this mathematics is describing space ships able to move about in space like the speed of light don’t even matter. Talk of bending space or use of Tackeons which while never seen are described by mathematics as having its lower limit of speed of that of the speed of light. A space ship suitably shielded would tap into such particles and go in a blink of an eye to where ever is set by the users of such a space ship.
    Would this be useful to power-hungry of the world? Yep. Would the military like to get its hands on such a ship? Yep. Would they use black-ops research style to black out what ever they end up developing? Yep. At least this is my opinion on this matter.
    Now what would the power-hungry do with such a ship. Well, let’s take a closer look at the power hungry of this world. They don’t like the peasants they control so ably via group memberships they like to control. So if such a space ship were to be built, would the power-hungry of this world like to share such a space ship with the peasants? Nope.
    So how to get this space ship built and yet get rid of the peasants. Now the power-hungry are really quite weak. They cannot unto themselves destroy the human race. But they are excellent at promoting and fanning natural hatreds.
    Now America is unique in its standing in this world in so many ways that I am amazed at how great America is. But one difference got blurred badly in 1965 when the US Congress passed the immigration law that for the first time allowed millions in of a faith not of the Bible. Now this is not bad unto itself. Who knows many Christians and Islam people could find each other pleasant to get along with. There are historical times when the Christians and Islam people did indeed get along just fine.
    It is the agitation of the power-hungry that is to blame here. What I see is the demise of the human race’s ability to maintain the long production lines needed for producing its many items that end up for sale on so many counters in this world. It is this very same long production line that is needed for producing a space ship able to become planetarily free. Before the power-hungry were stuck on Earth with the peasants. Not any more. This is due mostly to Einstein’s wondrous discovery of nature of the Universe at least in part. His breakthrough has been more thoroughly developed to the point of what? Oops, that is most likely a great military secret.
    So what am I talking about here. Well I don’t really know. Am I saying that the power-hungry are seeking to have the Christians and Islams fight each other to each other deaths, and in accomplishing this at the right right moment leave in their built space ship able to travel the galaxy with ease and in effect saying “Goodbye suckers.”
    Well without any awareness of what mathematics is describing and how this interacts with the power-hungry people’s agenda in their life, then how can a peasant or anybody that is know better what is really being played out here in human affairs.

  • s c

    When there’s no difference between corporations and the government, you have fascism. When you have a herd mentality in government (and sheep and dead people vote), you have a democracy. When there’s no difference between the government and religion, you have anti-christ. The day is not far off when government will tell preachers, rabbis and priests what they can and can’t say in church/temple. Then people will know that good intentions can’t keep us free. Many still don’t realize that ‘Christianity’ in the US has been co-opted by evil. Was it just a coincidence that
    politicians kicked God out of schools? Didn’t you wonder why ‘religious leaders’
    blinked when abortion was made a ‘right’? America has no moral compass and no religious leadership. America, “IT” has happened here.

  • Agatha Eckman

    yes I agree that we need to put on the

    whole armor of God and always read his holy word.

    so we will the holy spirt lead us in the way God wants

    us to go and not be deicved.

  • dh1

    Light vs. Dark

    As Good People, in our quest to better humankind, let us consider for a brief moment, that all light and darkness resides within us (as we are all one in the Body Of God) and in our daily fight against the dark side, we should realize that although some of that darkness comes from our own life experiences, some of that darkness is also being programmed to reside in us by the dark side of other entities, for their own personal agendas.

    In that light, a good suggestion would be to seek out how these forces are intruding into our daily lives, and find out how to stop them from impacting our innate goodness. As anchors of light in this world, we can and must on a grand scale, root out this darkness that resides within us and displace that darkness with light.

    Self-Survival is All-Survival. When you harm another person, you harm yourself, for somewhere, like it or not, on some quantum level, we are that other person. There are many, many accounts of people coming back to this life from the other side, citing instances of going through a self-assessment, and then role-playing as the one we hurt, so we could see and feel the effect that our hurt had on the other individual. There are just too many of these cases to dismiss this evidence of life after life and life ever-continuing.

    So, cut off someone’s hand – you are cutting off your own hand. Call someone a dirty name, you are shaming yourself. This is the true nature of God. He is closer than our own breath. He is our breath, and He Lives Within Our Heart.

    He is in Us and We are in Him for He is All There Is. As Above, So Below. God is not out there somewhere in the wild blue yonder. He is inside, the spirit that animates us. We truly are spiritual beings of light, living as mortals in a mortal world. Our heritage is to become One With Him. Our Assignment, should we choose to accept it, is to make the choice. Will we choose light or dark? Will we serve God or man? Will we root out all darkness from ourselves or cease to exist within His Memory?

    In another aspect, when darkness wins, it has also lost. Outwardly it seems that the dark wins when the light loses, but this is only an outer perception. Inwardly, the dark really loses because the light has failed to lift the darkness out of the void to be able to return to the light

    In the year 2000 we were given a new dispensation, according to masters and psychics past and present. What they did not tell us is what that new dispensation was. We were left to figure that one out on our own

    Many theorists say it is the end of everything we have known. Some say it is a new age for mankind, others say, like the Mayans, that this is an end to our old ways, a time for new beginnings, and marked their calendars in anticipation of this great event

    According to many experts, this time is the beginning of the sixth phase of man’s existence in this grand scheme of diversification by our Creator, in His ever-expanding infinity. This new humanity is to be superior in many ways from that of our ancestors, as one hand washes the other and offers a step-up in the right direction. In the previous eras, mankind was working through all of the base necessities of life, learning how to survive, to grow, to learn, to create and to re-create, etc

    One theory is that the new dispensation has to do with the law of One, that God, the giver of all life, in His infinite wisdom, has decreed that a new law is now in effect. That law is that we are to bring all the darkness to light so that God may transform its energy into light. This is so that mankind can enter into the New Kingdom, the Kingdom of Light, the New Jerusalem, where there will be no more suffering, no more tears, no more grief, and no more death.

    This new energy is continuing it’s ascension to light, rooting out the darkness wherever it is found. It is now coming to fruition and is set to transform our planet sometime around the year 2012, when the new age is to begin.

    These times have been spoken of in many ways, as is necessary for a diverse culture, to begin the introspection that allows us to make the choice. Will we choose the light or the dark? Each individual must come to make that choice before these tumultuous times can come to an end. He came Not to Bring Peace, But a Sword. The sword He brought was the choice.

    A good way to begin is, if you or your children are watching horror stories on TV, turn them off (better yet – turn off the TV permanently), or start watching something more intelligent, perhaps something to better yourself, learn more, enhance your vibration, turn your thoughts and intentions inward into your heart, bring in more light, intend someone to be healed, smile at someone, whisper a kind word, or whatever you can think of to further the cause of light.

    Time Is Short, and soon you will not be able to put it off any longer. YOU MUST DECIDE NOW.

    How will you know any one’s or any thing’s innermost heart? “You Will Know Them By Their Fruits” If any person, TV stories, music, movies or sitcoms glorify the debasing of God or mankind (any man, woman, child, animal, our planet, etc.) in any way, then its fruits have been made clear, it is from the dark side.

    To further the cause of light we must remain light ourselves to continue to anchor the light. Remember always even when someone does something bad to us – that our Creator created that person also, to allow us to make our choice. It is our duty to expand the light to heal the darkness. We can do that by returning good for bad, forgiving those we do not agree with, and praying for our enemies. These things confound the darkness. The dark knows not how to deal with this knowing within ourselves, and a heart can be turned in an instant to light, for light, and by light.

    At the crossroads of every such moment we have a choice, “Choose the dark or choose the light” If you choose the dark, ultimately the darkness will corrupt itself and be lost forever. If you choose the light, you will be protected, uplifted, and allowed to continue in this grand experiment on our planet, called life as “Co-Creators” With God.


  • Rodney

    This packrat has learned that what the next generation will value most is not what we owned, but the evidence of who we were and the tales of how we loved. In the end, it’s the family stories that are worth the storage.

  • movie goer fan

    What you posted here helped me quite a bit and im grateful for it!

  • Jozie77

    if you have ANY questions about why or when or how

    anything to do with Bible prophesy and the Word of God,

    please check out”

    he has a few videos on Israel, the Beast and the mark of the beast- you will never beleive how we have been deceived in how we think about the mark of the beast and who the beast is.


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