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How to Securely Store Precious Metals

October 9, 2009 by  

How to Securely Store Precious Metals

If you own precious metals in physical form, you need to store them securely. But where?

The best strategy is to keep your metals in several secure locations. Ideally, at least one of these locations should be outside the country you live in.

Safety Deposit Boxes or Private Vaults

Safety deposit boxes and private vaults are good choices for physical security, but both have their drawbacks. Theft from safety deposit boxes is rare, but it does occur, and it’s unlikely your insurance—or the bank’s—will cover your loss. Private vaults are often more secure—and client records less accessible to investigators.

To keep your name off your holdings, form a limited liability company and hold the box in its name. You’ll still need to identify yourself when you rent the box, but the owner of record will be your LLC, not you. This precaution also insures tax authorities won’t seal the box at your death pending a probate proceeding.

However, in a full-blown financial emergency, banks and private vaults may be closed. You may not have access to your metals, at least temporarily. If you live in the United States, the government has assigned itself the authority to confiscate "any financial instrument" in a national emergency. Since gold and silver are money, they wouldn’t be exempt from a future confiscation order. (I’m NOT predicting this will happen—but it’s the law.)

Hiding Metals at Home

If you just have a few coins or bars, keep them in a hidden place at home. There are many possibilities: behind baseboards, paneling or walls; in a large houseplant; or even a hollowed out toothpaste tube. Use your imagination! If you have a large home, you may be able to create a secret room or compartment that’s revealed when you pull a hidden lever or pull a book from a bookshelf.

Concealing metals throughout your home has potential drawbacks. A hot fire can melt gold and silver. A thief with a metal detector may be able to find your hiding places, unless you’ve created fake stashes of nails, screws or other metallic objects.

A secure fireproof safe protects against both fire and theft. Install the safe in concrete in the floor, in a location that’s easily accessible, but not obvious. The top should be flush with the floor. Cover it with a rug or, even better, a false floor with a hidden hinge door built into it.

Hiding Metals Outdoors

The best way to hide metals outdoors is to bury them at least three feet underground on your own property. If you have a big backyard, you can bury the metals there. This doesn’t work if you have an immaculate lawn, unless you’re willing to completely reseed it. Otherwise, it will be obvious where you’ve dug the holes.

Use PVC piping to construct your own waterproof storage containers or purchase "Midnight Gardener"-type containers.

Put scrap metal or something else metallic on top of your stash. If anyone with a metal detector comes along, he will find the scrap metal, and hopefully, not dig deeper.

If you own substantial acreage, or have a really big yard, you can bury decoy caches. Bury scrap metal 18 inches or so under the yard at random intervals. Only the most persistent searcher will persevere after a few false alarms.

I don’t recommend burying metals on someone else’s property or on government-owned property (e.g., a national forest). If someone finds it, you probably have no legal claim to it.

Overseas Storage

If you need to leave your country in a hurry, offshore metals holdings could help you start a new life. An overseas metals cache may also be more difficult for your country’s government to confiscate.

If you own property in another country, you can store metals there the same way as in your permanent home. Theft may be a bigger threat abroad than at home, especially if your overseas property is in a less affluent country.

You can also keep precious metals in an offshore bank vault, offshore safe deposit box, or offshore private vault. If your holdings are large enough, you can use all three.

Your government may require you to report your offshore metals holdings. U.S. persons must annually report offshore "bank, securities, or other financial accounts" with an aggregate value exceeding US$10,000 to the U.S. Treasury.

To keep your name off your holdings, form an offshore company (e.g., offshore LLC) and hold the box in its name. The owner of record is the LLC, not you. Again, you may need to disclose an ownership interest in an offshore entity to your government. This is definitely the case for U.S. persons.

What’s the best way to hold precious metals? There are no perfect solutions, but many possibilities. If you believe that precious metals are a possible way to protect yourself in a global financial crisis, you’ll want to store your metals in several different places, in at least two different countries.

By Mark Nestmann
Copyright © 2009 by Mark Nestmann

Mark Nestmann

is president of The Nestmann Group, Ltd., an international consultancy that assists individuals in achieving their wealth preservation goals. He is also Tax and Asset Protection editor for The Sovereign Society and author of The Lifeboat Strategy: Legally Protecting Wealth and Privacy in the 21st Century, and other books and publications. He is a graduate of Denison University and holds a LL.M. (Master of Laws) in international tax law from the Vienna University School of Economics and Business Administration.

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  • steve

    you’re all a bunch of whackos! You still see commies under your beds, I think NASA should have strapped Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Palin and McCain into that rocket before they shot it into the moon! Rush (DOUCHEBAG) Limbaugh and Cal Rove should have been tied to the very front otf the damn thing!

    • David

      Just remember, it will be your president that goes down in history for breaking the back of this country. The reason for the article is for those that see the end of the dollar coming. Oh yea and the Peace Prizes??? What a joke…do you like stats? carter 2002, gore 2007, obama 2009…..I see a very telling trend. The Nobel prize is becoming more and more worthless each year….kind of like your dollars.

      • Thurman Marcum


        I just got the news,Obama has won the Nobel Peace Prize.This is a outrage.He has done nothing to earn it.I am a liberal democrat.I voted for him.Maybe in the future not now,if he does something extrodinary I would have no argument with that.What do you think?

        • David

          Exactly, two weeks after he is elected; he is nominated. Why? Because the Norwegians want to encourage him to continue on singing the coke song while further weakening our country. It shows that the nobel prize has nothing to do with true discoveries such as Mr. Nobel’s discovery of dynamite.

          • eyeswideopen

            David, nominated after two weeks, they didn’t vote for confirmation at that time.Did that point escape you?
            Heh heh, the world knows what you radicals don’t. I think all of you are jealous. The man has intelligence, chrisma, and humor.
            I am proud that we have redemed our standing in the world, in spite of fractions like you, whose answer to any disagreement would be to, and let me quote John McCain, “BOMB, BOMB,BOMB, BOMB IRAN”. Yes, we got a reward for not voting in Mr. BOMB IRAN and his YOU BETCHA I QUIT girl.

          • David

            Did you see what the committee chair said last night? “We hope this award will further influence his decsion making with respect to global decisions….ie keep singing the coke song while he pulls down our pants some more. We probably won’t get the additional troops now…but I know you don’t care about our soldiers.

        • DaveH

          It is so cool that you are keeping an open mind. Thank you.

          • eyeswideopen

            Open mind? Howling with laughter, I knew exactly how this crowd would respond. Your disdain precedes you. You all are so predictable. Watch ourt those conspiracies are gonna get you!!!

          • David

            Eyes is such a dork

        • eyeswideopen

          Thurman, let me quote Alfred Nobel in 1895 who stipulated that the award should go “to the person who shall have done the most or the best work for fraternity between the Nations and the abolition or reduction of standing Armies and the formation and spreading of peace Congresses”. It should be awarded to a person or organization that are in process of restoring a conflict or creating peace. The board who awarded this prize stated: That extraordinary efforts to strengthen international diplomacy and cooperation between peoples. He has helped to reduce the world stock of nuclear arms, eased American conflicts with Muslim Nations and strengthened the U.S. role in combating climate change. A 25 nation poll has shown that our standing in the world has increased from 7th to number 1 since his election. There were 205 nominees who could have won, but the board feels that since he has been on the scene that tensions have dialed back and peace and not bomb, bomb, bomb Iran, as McCain sung, it no longer our mantra. Peace keepers are what the world wants.

      • eyeswideopen

        No, David, it will go down in history that the radical right of this country routed against their own President. If you believed in the Constitution you wouldn’t live in fear.

        • David

          Who’s affraid? Why i’ve got my bible and guns close by…freebird… should get a little of both sunshine.

      • Charles

        Nobel prize is given for promises kept, not promises made, thats why i cant understand why he got it. Giving a speech on mid-east peace not only doesnt mean much, it didnt play well around the world either. Sad the prize was wasted this time.

    • Earl

      You are either drinking a lot of keel aid or just waiting for ‘Obama Money’ which is stolen from people who actually work for it and want to keep the fruits of their labors.

      • Earl

        Oooops. “kool aid”. sorry about that.

        • John Wagerer

          Your spelling was correct the first time….folks such as your ilk that believe the government & rich taxpayers should take care of you from the “erection to the resurection” should be KEEL-hauled!!

      • John Wagerer

        You were correct the first time….perhaps many of the people on the dole all their lives & thing they are ENTITLED should be “keel-hauled”!

        • eyeswideopen

          Spoken, like a true radical whose only answer to tough problems is violence.

          • John Wagerer

            Radical…Hell!! I worked all my life since age 12!!…and at age 72 still working!! “If you don’t work…you don’t eat!” We all have an obligation to help those who are unable to help themselves….for the rest of you…stop sucking at the “public tit”!!

        • eyeswideopen

          You people must hang out with alot of people who don’t work,and or collect alot of government money. I don’t have any friends who get food stamps, government help of any kind. You are so concerned about working people getting in your pocket, that you have overlooked the CORPORATE RAIDERS of this country. Get real, use your brain, make big companies accountable, quite giving them a free ride on our backs. Make the rich pay their taxes, make off shore account for hiding money illegal. Turn you eye from middle class to the ones who have no class and will do anything to avoid paying their fair share.

    • Marv

      Steve- The world would be a better place if YOU were the first to be strapped to that rocket!!!!!

      • Ed Douglas

        Let fools like Steve and other millions fund the gov’s Ponzi scheme while we enjoy metal prices kept low because these dopes are not in the market.

        Take the advice of the Biblical story of the Pharo’s dream and fill your stash with the product of these “good harvest” years.

        Tough times will allow us to employ the Steves of this world for a meal and a bed in the haymow.

        The fool on the hill.

    • DaveH

      You see my fellow freedom-lovers what we’re up against. This guy has clearly indicated that he would have no problem with violence.
      Once you let a large portion of the population live at your expense, they become very irate when you try to keep them from taking more. It’s called ‘spoiling’.

      • eyeswideopen

        Shooting to the moon, is a little different than promoting civil war to remove the president.

    • Ken

      Steve will be the FIRST in line for “free” gov’t money and services. Most who make those comments are dependants and wards (read slaves) of the government. I prefer to provide for myself whether it be financial or food, etc. I love God given Freedom and Liberty without big government (read obama) meddling in my affairs.

      • DaveH

        Yep, we only have a short time on this earth. I prefer to spend my time respecting others and knowing that I have not ridden on any unwilling backs. In the end, that is what will make us happiest.

        • DaveH

          Strife is the inevitable result of Big Government. People, in a Big Government environment, will always be fighting for whose turn it is at the trough. One size does not fit all in our pursuit of freedom. That is why I believe that the Libertarian Party with their concepts of greatly limited government is the only true way to peace in this country. They believe in individual freedom and individual responsibility. For their platform:

          • eyeswideopen

            Once again, how do you propose to reduce the government? Just list some of the agencies that you would deflock. Someone who is a Libertarian must have some idea what your plan would be! You just quote a book from 70′s which has no agenda,or even attempts to identify how you would keep this infrastructure operating. Ideas with no plans are just ideas!!!!

    • http://windstream Ronnie

      You must be a nut not to think that Obama is a liar. Joe Wilson was right did you see that on the news. The Rats passed that back in the 90′s that you could not turn down anyone that is in this country, after calf. passed their law that they were not going to pay for all the illegals health care Bill Clinton and the Ratpack overrode their law. So ye Obama is a liar. Who would trust this bunch of communist in Washington. Not the people who are informed.

    • Arlene

      The name is Carl Rove, not Cal Rove. Apparently you can’t get correct facts so that lets me loose creditability with your entire premise.

      • Al

        Actually, it’s Karl Rove, but who’s counting?

      • eyeswideopen

        Arlene, see how you people are, trying to take a pot shot at someone and you don’t even bother to check the spelling. Hah Hah. LMAO

    • Willie Stoker

      Normal Commie response, we will consider the source

    • s c

      I sure can feel the ‘love’ and deep compassion you have for we who are only mortal, steve. The word you used in a comment about Limbaugh is not exactly compassionate. Perhaps you need to chill out and take a pill or two.
      Most ultralibs whiz and moan about not being able to ‘dialogue’ with conservatives. Well, dude, your feedback is a great example of why a typical ultralib usually hasn’t a clue. If you’re an example of an ultralib’s ‘big tent’ theory or ‘compassion’ or anything close to civil, then I’m a weekend brain surgeon in search of airheads who think they’d be happier being a member of another species. Grow up, steve. You know what people say about finger-pointers who confuse emotion with intellect (they become politicians and losers).

    • JohnM

      Steve sham on you. It’s people like you that the normal American needs to fear. I personally believe that your kind are a vary violent type and will be the ones to fire the first shot when this country falls into a deep depression and a civil was starts!!!

    • Gregory


      • libertytrain

        Gregory – This is not particular helpful to what you are trying to express to do it in this manner.

  • Jack

    Way to go Steve. How’s your hope and Change doing for you??

  • Jake Sheldon

    Negotiable bearer warehouse receipts from a REPUTABLE offshore vault entity within a totally independent country is an option to hold precious metals on a 100% confidential basis.

    The receipts should be genuine, counterfeit proof, with holograms, et al, e.g., taking the form of laser encoded semi-precious gems within a “credit card format” that are, in and of themselves, the warehouse receipts as such would be impossible to counterfeit.

    • pinkmoody

      Thanks for actually being helpful by making a suggestion to the subject of the article!

  • LAS

    Stevo: You just sit there and “Kiss Your Buck Goodbye”! Sensible leftwing loon comment over free advice!

  • Tom

    In any national crisis, which most definitely will hit this country jst like others before it, there will people who PREPARE and are prosperous, and those who will SCOFF and be destitute. (and of course, the innocent victims who weren’t properly educated, and who couldn’t have helped themselves much even if they wanted to).

    To the scoffers: You are nothing more than “useful idiots” in the hands of Marxist dreamers who have taken control in Washington. If they succeed in their scheming to bring down the dollar, suspend the Constitution, and start America “over” with a new foundation, it will be YOU who cries out for wisdom and discernment (and a loaf of bread!)…..NOW is the time to prepare and be wise………

    Or are you actually less educated than the ant and the squirrel?

    • DaveH

      Well said.

    • Willie Stoker

      I agree Tom, There are two kind of Marxist thinking people in the US, the ones who think they will be in the elite, and those useful idiots, you speak of. The useful idiots are the ones who can’t think for themselves and follow along blindly waiting for that utopia that has been promised to them by the deceivers. The Deceivers are just waiting for the time to come when they can emulate Hugo Chavez or Fidel Castro.

      The useful idiots will then learn that they are no longer useful to those in power and will be mere subjects in their evil empire.

      • http://BobLivingstonAlternativeMedicine Michelle

        Well said Willie Stoker!

      • eyeswideopen

        Willie, why the whole wide world knows that only you rt wingers are the all knowing, perfect citizens, in this country. What they can’t figure out is, if you know so much, why didn’t you prevent the financial crisis? Why haven’t you solved the Medicare situtation prior to now? Why haven’t you solved the immigration problem? Why do we have all these issues with you known genius’ here?

        • pinkmoody

          Because we are taking advantage of all of these situations and issues, you ninny!

        • Willie Stoker

          Well eyeswideopen,
          I’m not a right winger, I’m just a normal guy who actually uses truth and logic to to try to understand what’s happening to our country.
          The Republicans are not much better than the Democrats, they are all politicians who care more about their political career and power, they buy votes with the peoples money and care nothing about their constituents. They have forgotten what they were elected to do and look at the citizens as subjects.

          The Democrats are more immoral and more incline to lean toward Marxism. they want to fundamentally change the best country that ever existed on the face of the earth to a Marxist regime.
          They were both responsible for the financial crises but the Dems were more to blame because of things like the forced sub prime lending and Barney Frank’s sexual affair with the head of Freddy Mack and taking care of them and their cronies who made millions from the debacle.
          Phony stimulus packages that were just paybacks for the Marxist who got Obama elected. It appears that the Obama administration is doing all it can to actually destroy our economy and devalue the dollar.
          We will soon be in hyper inflation and our savings will all be destroyed.

          The only thing to do at this point is to work hard to defeat everyone in the congress and replace them with actual patriots, who care about our country.

          • thinkerman

            You have just written the the truth. Thanks for that, most people won’t get it. the gov has spent billions of your tax dollars over the years brain washing people to think how they want. This is a fact. dependency justifies there existence to have an office to rule over people, along with the power to control. Absolute power corrupts absolutely.

          • Pat Zimmerman

            I agree with you mostly, but have a few things to add… Bush/Cheney spent the entirety of their term in office shredding our constitution in preparation for world government. They passed fascist law after fascist law after fascist law. As for Marxism in America, we would be lucky to end up under a Soviet system in comparison with what the fools in Washington have been planning. The only folks who will own anything will be the super rich. Their will be no guaranteed food, housing and high-level education as they had in the Soviet system (not to overrate it, but this is fact). Anyone who survives their schemes will be but cannon fodder for their war machine. I’d call this fascism, rather than Marxism. Blaming the dems is misguided. they are all EQUALLY guilty. The laws of the Bush and Cheney era were often modeled on laws of Adolf Hitler, who was no Marxist. Actually, Hitler went after the Marxists first. they only kind of Marxim we will get is the usual sort, in which corrupt officials take everything for themselves and leave the people to go hungry. We need to drop the left/right argument. It serves no useful purpose anymore.

            I might add that American liberals (and I was one for most of my life, until the current era turned me into a Libertarian) typically take their news from the New York Times. They have no idea what kind of evil, illegal law-making has been going on. When Cheney and other officials stood up after 9/11 and warned us against taking our news from the internet, American liberals – if no one else – took this to heart. I know hardly anyone who has ever recovered from their blind devotion to that suggestion. How such a large group of educated people could be so clueless is beyond me, but there you have it…

            We are brainwashed. On the right, people are brainwashed into believing in war-profiteering and heinous military crimes, always assuming there is something for our country to be gained from such schemes, when in fact they consistently abuse our soldiers, commit heinous crimes against innocent civilians on a routine basis and profit handsomely from the endeavor. Our economy is ruined by this activity, the moral atmosphere of our country has been poisoned by it, our constitution is being destroyed on behalf of so-called war “emergencies”, our sons (and daughters) are treated like garbage for war profiteers and their voices are assiduously kept out of our news media, while we commit genocides, mass rapes, torture and all manner of crimes on behalf of agendas about which the population is completely ignorant.

            If our government cared about our national defense we would still have a standing army at home – and we have little. I’ll throw out a hint: we are the standing army for the New World Order. Our soldiers are misused to bring about the dream of the Western elite of eventual world domination. their sacrifices will help to bring about world tyranny and have nothing to do with the safety or defense of Americans. Our leaders could not care less about that topic.

            I’m going to end by paraphrasing Orwell from 1984: “The primary purpose of modern warfare is to use up the products of the machine without raising the general standard of living”. Think about that. Thing of the laws they have passed about offshoring assets. They plan to take it all, folks.

            Has all our violence against the people of other lands made your lives any better? The answer should be a resounding NO.

            Do you remember after 9/11 the mainstream press reported that many prominent Americans were warned by our own government not to fly on 9/11? I still remember those articles. You can no doubt google them and still read them, if you missed them on the first round. the Israeli government warned Israeli citizens who worked in the World Trade Center. This is fact. Were average US citizens warned to stay home that day? We are the patsies of the Western ruling class. They find us contemptible. They find our blind devotion to them contemptible. They think we are stupid. given how devoted people still are to them, I often think it, also, so I can see their point… They take and take from us and we refuse to listen, we refuse to get it. In relation to government, the majority of American citizens have a sub-standard IQ, no matter how brilliantly they may function in other areas.

            We absorb the hatred of the entire world for it. Our economy is being sucked dry. Where is the honor in any of this? There will be no end to their war in the Middle East because it is a platform for expanded warfare around the globe. The crazies in Washington even hope to cook up war with Russia and then China. Consider yourselves dead meat, if you continue to go along with their war agendas. They won’t do it under Obama. They will wait until the next election, when someone like Sarah Palin, who can see Russia from her home, will be pulled out of the hat.

            Really, all they have to do is throw out a few bones of propaganda against any world leader and legions of American conservatives start chomping at the bit to go and annihilate those nations. Why?

            The truth is almost always 180 degrees from what they say it is. They are all complicit (with Ron Paul and Dennis Kucinich being among the exceptions, to name but a few) in creating our current conditions.
            These conditions were brought about intentionally, with political purpose, and were no accident.

            Okay, okay, I have to add one more thing. Our government has erected cocentration camps around North America. There are dozens of laws related to their establishment which any curious person can take the time to read. What is paranoid about thinking about or expressing concern about such things? Only the arrogance of Liberals allows them to dismiss such concerns as madness. This is the height of stupidity. Blind loyalty to political leaders never got a people anywhere. Liberals should give it up (which is why I am no longer among their group), just as conservatives should give up their blind devotion to republican war-mongering. I’d like to take both groups and smash their heads together sometimes. Both positions are unAmerican and positively clueless.

            Well, that’s my two cents on the running argument of this page. We need to unite and stop the lib vs conservative nonsense. It’s just a distraction from real understanding and dialogue about our government.

  • Tak

    This problem started with Reagan and his voodoo “supply-side economics”. It was carried on by Clinton and massively expanded by Bush.
    Bush’s policies and lack of attention to running this country, the sink hole of Iraq for both our money and our children’s lives, and the utter folly of not regulating the risk levels taken by the Market were the precipitating causes.
    Even a casual reading of the economic crisis of 1907 and the Great Depression shows that any inattention to the sudden liquidity crisis would probably have brought an end to the monetary system of the world and it would have happened really, really quickly.
    For those of us who cherish freedom, we would have seen a massive increase in government intervention, but not in our financial system–it would have been in the streets of our cities. When people don’t get paid and can’t buy food, they get desperate. Personally I will take prompt action to stabilize our systems over dogma, lassitude, and selfish disregard.
    Obama didn’t cause this, it was there when he arrived; to pretend otherwise is dishonest. Whatever your politics, you’d better hope this works, because you will not like the alternative.

    • DaveH

      Socialism when practiced in pure form has never worked. It is based solely on Hopes and Dreams. Of course the leaders always do well, until the financial resources hit their nadir and the citizens rebel.
      If Keynesian Theory really worked, there would be no poor countries, they would just spend themselves into prosperity.
      It is very obvious to me that to make any economy work you must find what it is that motivates people to work their hardest.
      You could perhaps beat them, but that won’t last long as they will eventually get tired of the beatings and rebel. If you take away the money (taxes) from the people that are working the hardest, taking the correct risks, etc. they sure aren’t going to continue those efforts. And the recipients of that government largesse sure aren’t going to work harder (why should they?). So of course you have a decrease in productivity which results in higher prices or scarcity of goods in the economy.
      Please read some books by Thomas Sowell, or Milton Friedman, or Ludwig Von Mises to get some education about why free markets work so well.

      • http://BobLivingstonAlternativeMedicine Michelle

        Well said Dave H.

      • eyeswideopen

        Dave, capitalism uncontrolled doesn’t work either, or can’t you remember yesterday? Your idea of a totally free, non-controlled economic system would work, if greed didn’t happen. But all those citizens who can’t see their way clear to contribute their fair share to the tax system are an example of what, and who are running the corporations in America. If you think self monitoring works, try reading the papers from last year at this time.

        • DaveH

          Uh, you must be talking about Tim Geithner, Tom Dasche, Charles Rangel, and the other tax cheats in or near the Obama administration.

      • eyeswideopen

        Dave, Socialism has a place in a country who claims to be Christian. Social programs promote the Christian ideology, which you yourself have stated that you don’t believe in, But the rest of the Christians do believe in helping the less fortunate, just as the Bible instructs us to do. Maybe that’s why you think the word Socialism is such a bad bad word, and the rest of us know that it usually implies compassion and caring, which is the Christian mantra. You are an atheist and cannot understand our nature of giving to those who have hardships. SOCIALISM, SOCIALISM, SOCIALISM, it really doesn’t hurt us.

        • DaveH

          That is exactly what I am doing, Eyeswideshut. I am helping the poor by giving them opportunities to better themselves and earn decent livings. Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish, and you have fed him for a lifetime.
          Cubans have risked theirs and their family’s lives to escape Cuba in small overcrowded boats. Why is that? Why would they flee that ‘workers paradise’?
          The Democrat leaders are just buying votes. Once they ruin our country like Socialists have ruined countries around the world, the leaders will still be at the top of the heap. Those who foolishly voted for them will be at the bottom.

        • Willie Stoker

          eyeswideopen, maybe you should study your bible a little closer. Christians are charitable because we love our fellow man and want the best for him.
          The Bible says that those who don’t work don’t eat. How does that fit in with your concept of modern day government Socialism.

          Socialism IS a bad word, hated by patriotic Americans.

          The bible does tell us to hate evil, and to Americans a socialist government is Evil, controlled by evil people, like Fidel Castro and Hugo Chavez, and anybody that buys into that is either evil or stupid, or to be more polite, I should say that they are grossly mislead.

          There is always hope that you can understand the reality of what is going on around you, and not follow blindly, those who wish to deceive you.

        • Gregory


          • libertytrain

            I’m not impressed with these kind of childish comments. Please try to be a little civil – it goes so much farther to do things a little less hateful.

          • Normal Guy


    • s c

      Tak, thanks for proving once again that an ultralib can’t forward feedback without mentioning GB and/or Reagan. Could it be that you and the Nobel Peace Prize bunch smoke the same recreational plant?
      This economic ‘problem’ started before most of us were born. It has been continued and nurtured by those who seek nothing less than domination of the entire world. Do us a favor, and burn every book you regard as factual (especially history and economics).
      You and your intellectually bankrupt pals have the same basic problem. That is, you can’t make a decision unless it’s laced with worn-out phrases and pre-approved by a pc committee (or a Nobel Peace Prize-style popularity poll). Your world is on a collision course with reality.

    • Earlw

      No, Obama didn’t “cause it”, but he will do little or nothing to fix it……

      The original problem started with the CLINTON administration and their DEMOCRAT cohorts. How soon we forget. The Bush administration merely followed suit although they did enlarge it. I might add that the roots of this issue started as a result of the “pressure groups”, ie. ACORN, etc.pushing congress to relax credit requirements for Mortgages, etc. Regulation has been lax during Both administrations…..

      On a different note, if you want to see things REALLY explode, just let the gov’t. go around confiscating peoples saving, in whatever form, metal or stored supplies ( yeah, they have an agenda for that too, called “hoarding”) That’s likely when the shooting will start. Not my wish, but a logical conclusion…………!

      • eyeswideopen

        Oh, Earlw, did you forget that you had control when Clinton was Pres.? Might want to rethink your argument.

        • Earlw

          “I had control”? To what are you referring? That I’m a Repub, as you seem to be inferring? Sorry to pop your bubble, but I am an independent voter and always have been.. I make statements based in the merits of the issue at hand. I could care less about party politics. I believe in one thing-the US Constitution.So far no one has been able to show me a defect in it. The fact that Clinton was a liberal and Bilderberg traitor, never mind a morally destitute individual seems to get lost here.

          To all you liberals out there, get you ducks in a row before you present your argument…just makes you look dumb and uninformed. Some of us actually have a firm grounding in what we talk about, were not given to ad hominem defamation…….

    • mp934

      Sorry Tak, it really started when Nixon took the country off the Gold Standard. That’s the same time computers were becoming more usable in displacing workers, thereby the wage increases started to flatline compared to profits. Then the companies had to much money, hence, the lending surge, and eventually the sub-prime mortgage market, and whne that bubble burst, here we are.

  • Earl

    Steve is obviously a bottom feeded and can’t stand the idea that some of us might want to keep what we have left after taxes. By keeping what we have so Obama cannot get ahold of it (steal) will cut his welfare payment down and he will either have to go to work or rob someone else. Cannot believe he works for a living or has ever worked.

    • eyeswideopen

      Earl, I want you to have more of your taxes, I want the tax evaders who have off shore accounts, to help pay for the services that they use. I want the rich to start paying their taxes. I want corporate America to stop getting subsidies. I want middle class America to once again get raises. I don’t want 95% of us to suffer so that 1% can continue to hide their assets in foreign countries.

      • DaveH

        The rich give the rest of us jobs. Them and the small businesses that the government is busily destroying with a plethora of paperwork.
        Granted, many of the rich companies are profiting by enlisting the force of government to protect them from competition. That is inevitable when the government is so involved in the marketplace. The bigger government gets, the more pervasive corruption gets.
        The best thing those of us who are jealous (I won’t mention any names) could do would be to encourage less regulation, so the upstart competitors could better perform and force the big companies to either produce more (thus lower costs to the consumer) or lose to their smaller more nimble competition.

  • Tom

    Tak……..It matters NOT who you think started what……the point is moot……

    What matters is that it will NOT work…..because they have no intention of WANTING it to work….

    They can pay down our national debt ONLY by devaluing the dollar, which in turn devalues the debt on the books……And if the dollar RECOVERS, their little Marxist dream will NOT come to fruition…..Thay need to orchestrate a massive crisis in order to take firm control and HOLD that power…….THIS IS OBAMA’S DREAM…..THIS is what he has studied and lived for………

    To deny this is abject BLINDNESS.

    • DaveH

      It is hard to replace Hopes and Dreams with the reality of hard work, earnest study, and sacrifice. Once they set their sights on that trough, watch out!

      • eyeswideopen

        Many worked hard and invested, did the right thing, only to have it stolen by your non-regulated Corporate Wall Street companies. Many , many dreams have been stolen and you are blind to the fact that this economy took a big dump, thanks to people thinking like you do, that the companies will regulate themselves. HA HAH and the fox in the hen house won’t eat the chickens. DUH!!!

        • DaveH

          Duh, our businesses are more regulated than ever before in our history. Have you heard of Sarbanes Oxley? And still we had our current meltdown and corrupt companies. So, duh, what does that tell you about the effectiveness of government regulation?
          My son was a loan officer during the bubble. Loans were being made to any warm body during those years. I talked often to friends and relatives about the fact that it was so obviously a bubble that was going to burst. I wondered “Where is the government?”. Well, in fact, the government was not only turning a blind-eye but was complicit in the risky loans. Read “Housing Boom and Bust” by Thomas Sowell.

  • http://Bing Jane Thompson

    Open your eyes – tak and steve and too many others. There are none so BLIND as those who WILL NOT see! It is obvious that OBAMA will destroy us if we let him.

    • eyeswideopen

      Jane, go take a shower, you are just repeating and in less than descriptive terms the same mantra, that the big boys chant everyday.

  • Don Boyer

    Obama and our idiotic Democrat controlled Congress are well on the way to destroying this great nation. Obama is a narcissist and a control freak. When he forced GM into bankruptcy he usurped the bankruptcy rules. The law says bond holders come first then preferred stock holders
    then common stock holders then everybody else. In GM’s case the UAW union came first. He wants to control banks, Wall street,the auto industry, and your life,and how your children are raised! He wants America to become a copy of an European socialist state. Maybe we should hang a huge sign from the Statue of Liberty that says “Welcome to the Socialized States of America.

    • David

      You are right on. Look though at what is happening to GM sales versus Ford. Other than the little cash for clunkers blip (which went mostly to Japan) Ford’s sales are much better off than GM’s. Why? Because no one is buying them on purpose. So the silent majority is speaking very loud.

      • DaveH


    • eyeswideopen

      Hope you enjoy it.

  • ANN

    Even if you had gold coins (or another form of it), and the dollar was so devalued, or banks closed, How & where would you
    ever be able to use gold to obtain groceries, purchase gas, or
    whatever….getting on the practical side ! I have not heard ONE
    Expert on gold ever discuss this !

    • s c

      Ann, stock up on grocery items NOW. Most people can’t think of everything they might need in advance. If you have extra water and food plenty and basics, you’re way ahead of those who live in a dream world of their own making.
      I was told long ago that anyone who lives in a large population center (NYC. LA, Miami, etc.) and can’t get in or out of that community in 15 minutes or less is asking for more misery than any human can tolerate. Do some quick reading. Then make a decision and live with it.

      • David

        SC is right and beanie weenies last for years!

    • Willie Stoker

      You might consider Silver coins, right now they are valued at over 12.6 times face value. I was buying large quantities of silver coins when it was valued at about four times face value.

      Right now a silver dime is worth about $1.25, that would be easy to barter with when our currency no longer has value.
      Of course gold could be used for larger purchases.
      You gotta use your head !!

    • Bob Livingston

      When your dollars become worthless something else will have to be used for currency. Gold has always had value and the time will come when gold and silver will have extremely high value as money.

      So gold and silver will be used to trade for other goods in lieu of dollars. In other words, a barter economy will develop using gold and silver as currency. I can also visualize a very practical use of old pre-1965 U.S. silver coins as they are still legal tender and in a form people are comfortable using, plus they will hold their value because of their silver content. There has been a whole generation of Americans who have only used paper money. But as the people experience hyperinflation they will learn fast that gold and silver will be readily accepted by merchants, farmers etc. after their paper money becomes worthless.

      • Amol

        I bought your book and my family are planning on getting out of the city. We have purchased land and are going to start planting our garden in the spring with non-hybrid seeds. We have a small clear water lake on the property and will have well water with back-up power sources.
        As far as metals go I have been investing a lot in lead tipped brass packed with powder. I figure if I need to I can kill animals for fresh meat and predatory humans that want to harm my family. I would also think that live ammunition would have a very good barter value. Does anyone else think this?

        • a different steve

          Yes sir, Amol. Stock up on ammo. Gold and silver are hard to eat and after the apocalypse will be in high demand in barter situations. Gold and silver (I own more than ever and am always buying more) are unwieldly, but good insurance in the event some form of civilization should survive our best efforts at destroying it.

          Everybody who sees the direction the world is headed should give heed to scientific laws. A body at rest tends to remain at rest. A body in motion tends to remain in motion. We are in motion. The direction is downhill and we are gaining speed. Since we can’t seem to agree anymore on the basic premise of our Constitution (“that government is best which governs least”) and have no sense of fellowship due to hours spent in front of the TV and Internet, causing a disassociation from each other, and a resultant loss in common humanity, all we can do is prepare for the inevitable.

          Read Howard Ruff’s advice regarding “How to Survive and Prosper the coming Hard Times of the 21st Century”. Good luck, my country.

    • Little Timmy

      You sell the Gold for whatever is used to buy food, Dooooh

    • DaveH

      I think Silver is a better buy right now, and since per ounce prices are much lower than those for gold, it would be much more negotiable for buying smaller items like groceries, etc.
      Also, Silver is more biased toward industrial uses, less toward consumer uses. Gold is oppositely biased. So, silver should get an added kick if the economy started recovering.
      As you implied, you can’t eat precious metals, but people have long known them to hold their buying power in the face of money devaluation. So, I think they are your best bet in these uncertain times.

      • s c

        DaveH, there’s an ultralib trying to lecture people about delusions and paranoia [ultralib specialties] at the bottom of this feedback. I’d give some Swiss francs or some silver to see the look on his face when the ‘obama is takin’ us to oblivion’ train derails. The guy sounds like a candidate for a public psychology czar.
        The guy uses a very amateurish attempt at childish psychology to make his ‘point.’ I’d tell him to look in the mirror, but experience tells me I’d be wasting my time. He probably thinks comrade obama deserves two Nobel Peace Prizes.
        When do they hand out prizes for bombing the moon? I’d gladly sell him a few acres on the moon – for gold or silver, that is.

        • DaveH

          When the Libs can’t manipulate us with name-calling and ridicule then they have to resort to personal attacks.

    • eyeswideopen

      Ann, not enough people have purchased or could purchase coins to be able to use them instead of paper currency. The extremely rich would have access and have already purchased metals and could survive, however the price of goods would eat up your coins in no time at all. It would not prolong your standard of living for very long.

      • Willie Stoker

        eyeswideopen, that seems like a naive and shallow statement. Silver and gold have held their value all through history, it’s the unsecured paper money that will not be able to buy the necessities.
        I’ve heard it said that you could always but a man’s suit with an ounce of gold. right now gold is $1048 per ounce, that would be a pretty nice suit, actually I think I could buy about three suits with that amount. so maybe it is actually gaining more than expected, in relation the the economy.
        Not only the rich can have silver, I buy silver now, and have been since it was about $4 an ounce, instead of investing in cds or the stock market, the stock market has almost wiped out my retirement, so I’m converting everything to silver except my savings and I may start on that soon.

        No one is talking about changing out monetary system to silver, we are suggesting that the people who think ahead will have silver to survive on when these evil politicians have completed their task of destroying our economy, to make it possible to take us into a Marxist regime.

        Always be prepared for the worst and hope for the best !!

    • Earlw

      Ever heard of Silver coins? When I was a kid we always had at least one or two silver dollars (or half dollars, commonly called fifty-cent pieces. Just because gold is worth so much, don’t you think i can be made in smaller sizes. It is already. Ditto for silver. Remember Dimes (Like od mercury dimes) They were all 90% silver…HELLO?

  • Nathan Modeen

    Let’s face it, people Republicans are every as guilty as Democrats for our country’s financial problems. Both parties are bought and paid for by the CFR,the TC and the New World Order pushers! Neocon Reps and leftist Dems are behind one thing: a one world government and the end of U.S. sovereignty. The Bushes, Clintons and Obama are equally responsible for the destruction of our nation! If a real conservative like Ron Paul were nominated in ’08, The NWO and big government would crashing down right now! If we want to turn the U.S. from socialism back to freedom, then we ought to support constitutionally correct people for office in 2010 and 2012, whether or not they are from major or minor parties. People who support the evil of two lessers are just as responsible!

    • DaveH

      Vote Libertarian!

  • Jerry

    Ann; small size gold and silver has been used as trade, barter, and purchase throughout history for travel, food, fuel, bribes, and other goods and services as recently as right now, in the notably in the 1920′s, 1930′s, 1940-1950 in American and Europe. It is easy to research and find.


  • Marsha Barnes

    Well, the Bibile says to lay not up tresures in this life, that it propers nothing.
    Personally, I put my trust the Lord Jesus Christ, who says. For God hath not given us the spirit of fear: but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.
    But as you read wisdom in the spcriptures that when Isiac was instructed by God when being the second in rulership in Israel that when famine was coming on the land, to store up food. Not treasures.
    When facing a crisis many years ago financially, my father which is in heaven came to me in dream, and said,”Marsha buy only what you need, not your wants.” This could have been allowed because I was very close to my father as a little girl, and God knew I would listen to his sound advise. Believe me it worked and I made it through with no pain, for myself or my family at the time.
    I am now the Treasurer for a DAR Society, and Treasurer for the Huguenot Society.
    Put you trust in the Lord, he was the archiect of this nation. We need to protect our Constitution, Freedom, Liberty, and not be taken down by the socialist agenda of this current administration. I have placed them in the Hands of God to judge and exacute judgement.
    If we want real change……….PRAY God will answer. Be prudent plan wisely and put your whole trust in the Lord.

    • Willie Stoker

      “and of a sound mind” is the key phrase here. God expects you to think for yourself and take care of business. Protecting your assets is not like laying up treasures on earth. it is more like being responsible for your one welfare.
      Everything we posses is a gift from God, not only the material things, but our sound mind, our ability to care for ourselves, and make logical decisions.

      He sends down manna from heaven when we are wondering in the desert, but any other time he expects us to take care of ourselves, with his guidance, of course.

  • Jon

    These are the end of times…..Grab your ankles and kis your ass goodbye…..Welcome in the Illuminati & Obama Nation Under Islam…..
    Peace Prize….?…..For what ‘fried chicken’ every night at the ‘Acorn White House’…..!……Please…..What a joke….!

  • Dave T.


    The one thing intelligent people can’t do is argue with ignorant fools, so I won’t even try.

    Enjoy your socialism. I will be gone.

  • s c

    Gold and silver will always be better investments than the constant insanity that comes from Washington. Economics experts who aren’t puppets for a wannabe slave master will tell you that the dollar is about to die at the hands the federal government. That means 1) use your head and prepare or 2) put your faith in comrade obama and his nation-destroyers.
    As far as I’m concerned, anybody who has faith in someone who won a so-called Nobel Peace Prize via a popularity poll is someone who is not a functional member of the human race.
    Now, where’s my Nobel Peace Prize? Is this popularity poll lottery rigged, or what?

    • DaveH

      I passed by a small gun store today. There were two signs curbside:
      1) Buy Guns here.
      2) Nobel Peace Prizes 99 cents.

      I thought that was pretty funny.

      • s c

        Do you think comrade obama had to suck up to one of his cronies to be able to afford that so-called prize? This definitely puts a new light on character and outcome-based popularity polls. At this rate, the spaced-out boobs at the Nobel Peace Prize country club will start handing out prizes at birth.
        Comrade obama sure is in good company (woodie wilson, peanuts carter and America’s temporary savior, al gore). Nobel must be spinning in his grave. The harder he tries, comrade obama only makes himself look like an inept sequel to dumb and dumber.

        • eyeswideopen

          Just can’t stand that the world respects our President and you don’t? Well the world is bigger than this little party of a radicals who we all know never makes a mistake, and of course the rt wingers will come up with answers to our multi problems just as soon as John McCain tells us where to find Bin Laden like he promised. LMaO

          • Thurman Marcum


            I am from the left. I think Obama should turn the Nobel prize down.It can only divide us even futher,he didn’t earn it.He will make a great president.It going to take time.We got a economic mess on our hands and his job is to clean it up.

          • Earlw

            I think Eyeswideopen is blinded by what he or she perceives to be Obama’s aura…
            Here comes that right winger crap again! Come on, you can do better that that tired line
            Libs always use the same old tired terms to describe a conservative point of view…
            Right wing is just the opposite of left wing….Both of you are gonna get your oxes gored in the upcoming hard times……

      • Thurman Marcum


        I am here again.I think Obama should turn the Nobel Prize down,Jean-Pual Sartre the pholospher did.These awards are getting way out of hand.I don’t care whether it is on the left or right,if a person doesn’t earn it, he shoudn’t get it.

        • eyeswideopen

          thurmans, didn’t you read what Alfred Nobel has stipulated about the award? Go back to the top, I already took the time to find you the quote and inform you of his intentions. Go ahead, look backwards for the first

        • David

          No worries Thurman. You wear out Eyes better than any of us can because you are an older liberal, yet you can distinguish between right and wrong. Eyes in not capable. And Eyes, I didn’t say turn it down, Thurman did. I just think this shows how little importance the NPP is.

  • Daisy

    I’m with Ann, That is a good question. I’d like to know too.

  • Loren


  • Loren

    Hey America just one more thing. I HOPE you are all getting the message by now that you are being conned and scammed on every front. Time to man up and get to the business of saving from families, friends, country. If you let people like Steve think for you, you only have yourself to blame.
    Bye the way, Steve, I hope we meet someday so I can turn that smart mouth of your around.

    • eyeswideopen

      Loren and use violence which was earlier condemned by your cohorts in the above posts? They were saying that Steve was being violent when he wanted to shoot those men to the moon. But lookie here, a women who is violent, and wants to meet someone face to face so she can carry out her anger. Yahoo, what a zoo, you all live in.

  • Arizona

    I have bought gold and silver… more silver than gold. I buy gold at 1/10 oz size rather than anything larger at a time. I knew the Govt. could take your gold… I didn’t know silver as well. Isn’t like the govt. You pay for it and the govt. takes it away from you. They can do it to our homes too! (Eminent Domain).

    Now we have a president in office who is going to take every freedom from us plus the constitution. The Health Care fiasco is a ruse to gain complete control. It’s against our constitution to force us to buy a govt. plan. No Freedom of Choice.

    We pay in taxes for those that don’t work or make enough money on extra fees on house taxes, under-insured or uninsured motorists, fees on utilities and for free medical, dental, vision care. I would like to keep my health care I have rather a We are losing what our forefathers brought forth for our nation. The constitution! I don’t mind giving and I do. I just want a “Free choice” where to give. They can have it all when I pass over but don’t hurry to make it happen. Psalm 91

  • Normal Guy

    You people, with the exception of Steve and Tak, should seek professional help. The world is not coming to an end, there are tremendous opportunities to prosper even though we have had a tough cycle. The future is bright. Globally the economic situation is improving, Australia, Canada, China, Brazil all doing well. The US has sat back for a couple of decades and clearly needs to step up and compete, the American economy may not be the global leader as China continues to emerge.

    So what, there are huge opportunities – all the dopey Libertarian stuff is a joke. Check out libertarian failures in New Zealand, and Chile. Consider what it means if economic restraints are not put on those that hyper accumulate in a libertarian model.

    You people need to get out of your backyard shelters give up the survivalist attitude and get real. Over the last century that you all rant about being the end of the greatness of the US. The world has never seen more prosperity. The US since the first world war has seen unprecedented growth and prosperity. The current debt that was triggered by trickle down economic theory and has grown from 1 trillion in the mid eighties to 11 trillion and rising is a problem but not one that can’t be solved.

    In short, give up the chicken little routine and get into the real world.

    Paranoia: Definition

    Is an unfounded or exaggerated distrust of others, sometimes reaching delusional proportions. Paranoid individuals constantly suspect the motives of those around them, and believe that certain individuals, or people in general, are “out to get them.”

    Delusional: Definition

    Delusions are irrational beliefs, held with a high level of conviction, that are highly resistant to change even when the delusional person is exposed to forms of proof that contradict the belief. Non-bizarre delusions are considered to be plausible; that is, there is a possibility that what the person believes to be true could actually occur a small proportion of the time. Conversely, bizarre delusions focus on matters that would be impossible in reality. For example, a non-bizarre delusion might be the belief that one’s activities are constantly under observation by federal law enforcement or intelligence agencies, which actually does occur for a small number of people.

    • DaveH

      There goes Normal Liberal with the name-calling, ridicule, and misinformation that identifies the typical pie-eyed Liberal. Your kind have taken over California, and where are they?
      Your kind have taken over most of the Northeast, and where are they?
      Keep on hoping and dreaming. Of course if you are on the government payroll, you might do well for a while until the Zombies wake up.

    • DaveH

      Oh yeah, and the statement “The world has never seen more prosperity” should speak volumes about this guys knowledge level.

      • s c

        He could try enrolling at the al franken graduate school of incompetent comics or queen pelosi’s academy of legislative integrity. Either way, I’m sure he’ll be at the ‘top’ of the class.

        • Normal Guy


          You should enrol in Rush Limbaugh’s camp for the reality challenged. He is an expert, past graduates include Ann Coulter, Sean Hannity and Glen Beck, hey, there might be a career here for you!

          Who needs to address anything that is real just make stuff up and tell everyone to be afraid, it’s way less work and lots of fun.

          My guess not many on this sight have made it past high school, so the inability think independently is understandable. Another bet not many on the executive floor, financially challenged and angry, you have to aim it a something or someone, Goebbels got that it’s called scapegoating.

          This site basically, Archie Bunker and company.

      • Normal Guy


        Your kind – seem to hate the country that we have lived in all our lives.

        You seem to think that some phantom state existed that we should all pretend that we lived in. If you don’t think that the USA and the world has experienced unprecedented prosperity in the last century then you really are surprisingly uneducated.

        How about Libertarianism – complete failures in New Zealand and Chile? So a concept that is fraught issues if it ever were introduced – the extreme concentration of assets in few hands being just one, really a path to a monarch – but in your little delusional fantasy this is the solution for the US. Much more likely a path to anarchy and financial ruin

        Never in history have the fear filled reactionaries ever been right. We need to continue to boldly move forward growing and adapting, adjusting to change and solving problems. Hiding and hoarding is not the answer. Be brave, move forward and create prosperity, it won’t come to you, you have to go get it.

        • eyeswideopen

          Normal, well said, he thinks he can snare unhappy Republicans into the Libertarian Party. He had no defense when I asked why Ron Paul got 73 million in earmarks for his district. Aren’t they supposed to be making government smaller? Ron, never said, no my district doesn’t want this money, we are making our government smaller. They preach one thing and do the other. Dave constantly slams education, yet he hold two degrees? Isn’t that nice, the educated trying to tell the uneducated that the system stinks and they shouldn’t be going to those Liberal run schools. Hypocritical? Just a little. You think he would like to keep majority down trodden, with no education and poor , while the corporations make historial profits? Seems so.

    • Willie Stoker

      OH, Normal Guy, to call yourself Normal Guy is a delusion in it’s self.
      I think you are the Obama propaganda Czar trying to infiltrate a otherwise normal forum. Please take that Blather someplace else where it is more accepted, like or the daily Kos they love foolish ideas and abnormal thinking.

      • Normal Guy


        Normal is not survivalist extremism with conspiracies hiding around every corner. The delusioonal viewpoints expressed on thuis site are funny, but dangerous. All it takes is one self rightous paranoid to think that he is going to save the world with acts of violence. I notice that no one ever talks about the Census worker who was murdered by some wacko with a hate for our government.

        People who threaten and suggest violence against our demcratically elected officials should go straight to the devil.

        Ignorance and guns is a bad combination.

        • eyeswideopen

          I did, but they acted like it was his fault. Only one other person made a comment, when I asked for us to pray for his family. The people are not fazed when murder occurs. That is what is so scarey to me.It is interesting that we have the ability to ignore what we don’t want to acknowledge. Denial is how we protect ourselves from ourselves. These are some hard core rt. wingers.

    • Earlw

      Perhaps Normal better take a look at some other prognosticators befroe making such rosy scenarios…This upturn you infer in just a bump an the way down….You can’t inflate you way out of a recession! The worst is yet to come. The ones who say this ( Celente, et al. are extremely accurate in their predictions so far). The future may be bright, but you are going to go through what seems like purgatory on the way there…Some will not survive it. You can read into that whatever you like.

      Just remember that during the last depression America was an agrarian society, with fairly high morals. we are no longer. We are post-industrial. Add to that mix the fact that we are also no longer a moral nation but one who believes in situation ethics ( if I think its OK, then it is).

      You can engage in all the self-deception you want, but what a surprise lies in store!

      • Normal Guy


        Well I can tell you that I am doing just fine. I do business in Canada and Europe and am growing my assets` globally. I know the US is in for a rough ride, I knew it was coming as soon as Bush and Greenspan allowed the low interest environment to extend well past when it should have ended.

        Big problems and big changes are disruptive but full of opportunities. I short I am well positioned to continue to profit during this upheaval. I do not fear the end of the world the complete collapse of the USA or any of the other delusional paranoia so evident on this site.

        I think you and your friends here are like the survivalists during the cold war. Afraid of the future and running around like Chicken Little. Lose to fear, win with planning. Moderate inflation has lots of advantages if you prepare for it.

  • anon-represented1

    The freedom of speech that you enjoy which quite clearly is taken for granted, will probably be among the first to be suppressed. Second there’s no need to trouble yourself with what is and isn’t under your bed, because it’s living in the White House right in plain sight. You can blame one party or another but fact is as long as there is a two party system we will always get the bill and buyers remorse. It’s tax the rich and bleed the poor. Watch your pennies because they will watch your de-valued dollars for you!

    • Normal Guy


      Another reactionary who seems to hate this country.

      What is it with all the people here who claim to love their country but hate the government. This country is the best in the world, the system has it’s problem’s but it works. It has worked so well that we are the world’s leading nation. You people need to try a bit of reality; the conspiracy fantasy you live in is rotting your reason.

      • Dorothy

        We are not the “leading nation” anymore. China owns us!!

        • Normal Guy

          Well China has a trillion dollars of US debt. There GDP is currently about $4.7 trillion. So the US is still well ahead but the Chinese certainly have a strong position.

          Anyhow the US is not on the brink of annihilation, in fact, the next decade should be a good rebuilding cycle. If China continues to grow at current rates their domestic market will start to be a consumer economy. Lots of opportunities!

          One day 20 or 30 years from now they may surpass the US economy. So what!

        • eyeswideopen

          Billionaire(26.3) Sheldon Adelson, has gotten rich investing in China. He is also the biggest contributor to the Republican party. Maybe someone at the RNC should ask him to please start up some companies here in the good ole’ US of A.

    • eyeswideopen

      Ah!! another Libber. Libertarian. or just say Liberal, as that is wher their name comes from. heh heh,,, can’t fool us.

    • Willie Stoker

      anon-represented1, Excellent observation !!

  • Larry

    As long as there is only a two party system we will pay.

  • anon-represented1

    Normal Guy,

    You are right about one thing you’re an idiot and it shows. Just another pro-liberal blogger hack not even worthy of debate. Don’t remove the lampshade from your head it suits you!

    • Normal Guy

      You are clearly incapable of debate just parroted platitudes. Hide in fear the conspiracies are going to bring everything down.

      Incidently, it is not a two party system, you can create a “delusional fear filled party” today if you want just because you can’t get any votes does not mean we have a two party system.

  • katydid

    Normal Guy
    The German people loved their National socialist workers party government(NAZI) and Hitler until after it was too late. Stalin was another lovable government cult of personality. It’s quite possible to love your country so much you have to stand up to a government that is destroying it. History should be teaching us what the danger signs are. Start reading!

    • Thurman Marcum


      Hitler was on the far right and Stalin on the far left.Both of these men were monsters.The cult of personality was built around Stalin and Hitler.I hope we can find a common ground and find a solution to our problems.Remeber,extreme left or extreme right can be hazardous to our freedoms.

      • s c

        Thurman, I know what you’re trying to say, but Hitler’s Germany is also known as National Socialism. Stalin’s Russia and Hitler’s Germany were two versions of a ‘left’ mentality. It is ironic that Hitler outsmarted Stalin, and tried to do to Russia what Russia wanted to do to the world.
        I suspect the old twit (Stalin) took out his wrath on his own people, as he was responsible for killing many more Russians than did Hitler.
        Comrade obama, in many respects, has more negative potential than Hitler or Stalin. If you want to see someone squirm, ask an ultralib how comrade obama can defend Margaret Sanger, who hated blacks more than any other ethnic group. Abortion was but one of her ‘tools.’ That makes comrade obama a most unusual ‘progressive’ and a twisted combination of fascist, socialist and communist. Food for thought. Let the ultralib howls begin . . .

        • Normal Guy

          Well you really don’t know anything about the Nazi’s they are the supreme example of ultra right wing fascism. The text book case.

          The National Socialist Party was just the name. Do any research the only place it is identified as socialist is by the ultra right today. Just another distortion to try to tie Obama to Hitler. Find a real talking point not just your master’s voice.

          • Willie Stoker

            “normal guy” maybe you should rethink that, Hitler was like the Liberals who are attempting to run our country today.

            Hitler took over industry, like our Marxist leaders are doing today.

            He had a chosen race that were more privileged than the others, like our affirmative action program, set up by the liberals.
            Like Hitler, Obama is a racist, just like his mentor “the reverend” Wright.

            He burned the books that he didn’t want his citizens to read, like our liberal idea of attempting to shut up the conservatives through things like the fairness doctrine.

            Hitler took the guns from the citizens, just like the liberals have been trying to do here in America for decades.

            “History shows that all conquerors who have allowed their subject races to carry arms have prepared their own downfall by so doing. Indeed, I would go so far as to say that the supply of arms to the underdogs is a sine qua non for the overthrow of any sovereignty.” Hitler 1942.

            Hitler brainwashed the youth, just like our liberal controlled government schools have been doing for years in this country.

            Obama and his minions are operating a fascist government like Hitler did. Germany was a socialist government at that time, they were different from Obama because they were Nationalists and Obama and his group hate this country, and are attempting to fundamentally change the greatest nation that ever existed on the face of the earth, to another Marxist regime.

            I could go on and on but I’m sure you can get the picture.

            I think there is quite a resemblance between Obama and Hitler.

            This is pretty funny, I’m not the only one who has noticed the resemblance.

          • Normal Guy

            Well Willie lets look at your facts with a little academic rigour shall we.

            First, let’s be clear that the NAZI party was not founded by Hitler, it started as a worker’s party shortly after the First World War 1918. Anton Drexler headed a branch of the party in Munich Drexlers positions on key issues were as follows:

            Opposed the Treaty of Versailles,
            Believed in the superiority of Germans who nationalists claimed to be part of the Aryan “master race”
            Accused international capitalism of being a Jewish-dominated movement and denounced capitalists for war profiteering in World War One.

            He believed in ultra nationalism, his view of economic socialism was that everything should go into the state, for the state, not to redistribute wealth.

            Hitler joined the party and in 1921 became the Führer – the leader. His position at that time was to overthrow the Weimer Republic. His rational…they were controlled by socialists. In 1921 he founded the brownshirts (the SA latter to become the SS) as a militia to violently attack the other political parties. (tea parties?, town hall meetings)

            Unlike Drexler and other party members, Hitler was less interested in the “socialist” aspect of “national socialism” beyond moving Social Welfare administration from the Church to the State. He disliked the mass working class of the big cities, and had no sympathy with the notions of attacking private property or the business class.

            During 1921 and 1922 the Nazi Party grew significantly, partly through Hitler’s oratorical skills, partly through the SA’s appeal to unemployed young men, and partly because there was a backlash against socialist and liberal politics in Bavaria as Germany’s economic problems deepened and the weakness of the Weimar regime became apparent.

            In November 1923 Hitler attempted a coup the Beer Hall Putsch it failed and he went to prison, he was released in 1924.

            From 1925 to the 1930s, the German government evolved from a democracy to a conservative-nationalist authoritarian state under President and war hero Paul von Hindenburg, who opposed the liberal democratic nature of the Weimar Republic and wanted to find a way to make Germany into an authoritarian state. The path was being cleared for an extreme right wing Fascist state.

            The Nazis’ strongest appeal was to the lower middle-class – farmers, public servants, teachers, small businessmen – who had suffered most from the inflation from 1922 to 1923 and who feared Bolshevism (Communism)more than anything else. The small business class was receptive to Hitler’s anti-Semitism, since they blamed Jewish big business for their economic problem(s. (Blaming problems on a specific group is the hallmark of Fascisim, who do you like to blame Willie)

            By 1930 the German economy was beset with mass unemployment and widespread business failures – The Depression. The other parties were bitterly divided and unable to formulate an effective solution; this gave the Nazis their opportunity, and Hitler’s message, blaming the crisis on the Jewish financiers and the Bolsheviks resonated with wide sections of the electorate.

            “Between 1933 and 1945 more than 3 million Germans had been in concentration camps or prison for political reasons”

            Quote Source – Henry Maitles NEVER AGAIN!: A review of David Goldhagen, Hitlers Willing Executioners: Ordinary Germans and the Holocaust

            “Tens of thousands of Germans were killed for one or another form of resistance. Between 1933 and 1945 Special Courts killed 12,000 Germans, courts martial killed 25,000 German soldiers, and ‘regular’ justice killed 40,000 Germans. Many of these Germans were part of the government civil or military service, a circumstance which enabled them to engage in subversion and conspiracy while involved, marginally or significantly, in the government’s policies.”

            Quote Source – Peter Hoffmann “The History of the German Resistance, 1933-1945″p.xiii

            Bottom line, Hitler’s Nazi party was ultra-nationalist right wing, not socialist, the only reference to socialism is from the brownshirt’s who he killed on the night of the long knives and the original economic socialism models esposed by Drexler.

            There is no nationalization of industry until the war machine requires it in the war, even then industrialists continue to own the companies.

            In Regard to Gun Control:

            Gun control, the Law on Firearms and Ammunition, was introduced to Germany in 1928 under the Weimar regime (there was no Right to Arms in the Constitution of 1919) in large part to disarm the nascent private armies, e.g. the Nazi SA (aka “the brownshirts”). The Weimar government was attempting to bring some stability to German society and politics (a classic “law and order” position).

            Violent extremist movements (of both the Left and Right) were actively attacking the young, and very fragile, democratic state. A government that cannot maintain some degree of public order cannot sustain its legitimacy. Nor was the German citizenry well grounded in Constitutional, republican government (as was evidenced in their choices at the ballot box). Gun control was not initiated at the behest or on behalf of the Nazis – it was in fact designed to keep them, or others of the same ilk, from executing a revolution against the lawful government. In the strictest sense, the law succeeded – the Nazis did not stage an armed coup.

            Anyhow Willie, enough of the basic academic research regarding your generally fictional and unsupported claims regarding parallels between the Obama administration and Nazi Germany. If you really feel so strongly about your paranoid and delusional beliefs why not do just the slightest research to see if your beliefs hold any water. You will find that they do not.

          • eyeswideopen

            Norm, well said, I didn’t realize that about the guns. Thanks.

        • Thurman Marcum


          Hitler was put in power by millionaires,who hated socialism and fear communism.Any thing that is extreme,whether it is right or left isn’t good.There was a phlosopher who once said those who follow the truth around so blindly, that tuth becomes a false hood and the follower becomes a fanatic,this goes for the right or left.No one is completely right or wrong.Hitler and Stalin are examples,what extremeism is, in short we can lose our freedom.

          • Willie Stoker

            Except that Truth is always right, it is sometimes our perception of truth that leads wrong. Truth is something we must find for ourselves and not let others tell what they think truth is. We should never follow blindly and we should always be bold and ask questions.

    • Get it right.

      Katy, I agree, and we should start right here at home. It should be that we know what bills were passed by what party,and what the cost was, before we offer judgements and critisim of someone else.Prior to voting again, You would think that people would want to learn what went wrong to cause this unemployment, mortgage fraud, investment schemes, banking fraud, war, torture, immigration problem, education crisis, healthcare debacle, energy monster, fraudulent lobbying, and total corruption of the Congress. To do that,we would have to look at the past, and that seems to be the rub on this site. Self evaluation is hard to do, but necessary for growth and change. Nobody here wants to admit that they may have voted wrong and that the Republicans strayed from their financial ideologies. We accuse the Dem’s of tax and spend. We cut taxes and spent like there was no tomorrow, while starting two wars. Every time it is brought up, the response is let’s move on. Then, they are mad at the new President, as he hasn’t fixed all the above within 7 months. They, feel a deep, deep hatred towards someone who inherited this mess. I guess I just don’t understand the transference of responsibility. First they say, he is taking away my rights, then they say, he hasn’t gotten anything done.??????? I understand from my friends that this site is mild. That there are many, many more toxic ones ramping up to actually start a civil war, to take back their country. Funny, I thought it belonged to all of us. I guess sometime when I wasn’t looking they changed the Constitution to say One Nation under the Republican party, requiring the Democrats to leave the country ,as we are the Right Party. Scarey,to live here with this kind of hate.

      • eyeswideopen

        Get it right, you are walking a fine line here. I guess you know that already. You really don’t have to stand up for me, but it was a very nice jester. This has been an education, as I really didn’t know that the Rt. wing was so hostile and would actually like to see the demise of this country, if it would bring President Obama down. The democrats had control of this country in the Senate and House for a very, very long time and there was not this sort of dialoge. Hell, we had a President who probably should have been impeached and they weren’t taking up their guns and threatening civil war then. Think about what would be happening if a woman had been elected. OMG!! LOL.

  • Ruth Petersen

    It is amazing how this conversation has evolved from sensible questions and suggestions re. gold and silver storage (in an upcoming and likely collapse of the dollar) to unnecessarily nasty, insulting diatribe. Folks, you all better knock off this Democrat/Republican crap .. we are all in this together, no matter who caused it. The groundwork for this orchestrated collapse of the U.S.A. was laid many decades ago; only now they have an individual in the White House who has ZERO loyalty to our country and our Constitution. ALL of our so-called leaders are out for themselves, so quit bickering and devise a useful plan. The Shinola is about to hit the fan!

    • Normal Guy

      Nothing I am saying is about republicans or democrats. I am commenting on the irrational paranoia, the ignorant fear that is rampant on this site. You don’t have to bury gold in your backyard people. You don’t need to buy guns and thousands of rounds of ammunition.

      If you are honestly drawing parallels with Nazi Germany and the US today you know nothing about history but Glenn Beck facts.

      Look up the treaty of Versailles, look at the global position against Germany between the wars, then look at the Marshall plan after. There are no parallels with the current US position. Fascism is what you right wing folks lean towards, solutions at the end of a gun.

      The USA is not ruled by evil conspirators, you people need medication.

      • David

        Ok back to the topic. We are printing money faster than ever before to pay off our own debt….monetizing debt. The huge buyers of our debt are only buying short term debt because they see the near end of the dollar. Our deficit has quadrippled in 8 months and now we are talking about a second stimulus. What the crap happened to the first? I haven’t seen any shovel ready projects happening in NC and we were a blue state during the election….

        I had dinner with my left of center brother in law last night and his answer is the same as yours…..don’t worry be happy, we always come out of the downturns. Even my “made in Chicago wife” admitted “but this is different. We are creating policy for the wrong reasons.

        So bury that gold and learn how to hunt and gather.

  • eveready

    I read this column and I realize what short-sighted people we are. I was one who wanted to believe Obama during the campaign but I read a few books….his own and some from a few journalists who went to great effort to visit Obama’s childhood friends, found out who his mentors and associates were. Obama tried to hide the identity of some of them. I will hold off on whether Obama is a citizen of the USA or not. I would like to see whether he got grants and other financial help as a “foreign” student or not…..Obama has spent lots of money to keep those records sealed.
    Remember when Obama said to see who his friends and associates are to find out who he is? Well, I did. Communists, Radicals, Terrorists and some with very dangerous ideas for this nation. Many of them became his CZARS. Many have huge salaries too.
    This empty suit with a smile is a phoney, Ultra-Liberal, Secular-Progressive Egotist.
    I firmly believe that Obama is deliberately destroying The United States of America economically and militarily in order to ride in on his white horse at the critical moment and “Save” us. Unfortunately, he will also destroy our Constitution during this crisis.
    I never feared for this country as I do today. I went to a Tea Party on Tax Day…..April 15, 2009. It was the first time that I stood up and was counted. I met many others who were participating in a movement for the first time also.
    I went to Washington, DC for the 9-12 Tea Party. It was the second time to attend a Tea Party. It was a wonderful experience and, in spite of what the main media reported, there was one hell of a crowd. Maybe as many as 2 million. I know that the people were coming in and out all day… the Capitol lawn.
    I plan to get rid of my dollars and get into foreign curriencies, gold, silver. I will obtain enough food and water, etc. to sustain my wife and I for a few weeks. I also have the means to protect ourselves.
    We are old people who won’t be around for the worse part of the future. For that I am glad. I do pray for our children and grandchildren…..and our 4 great-grandchildren…God Bless you all. You see, we who voted Republican know we have lost our leadership. The Liberal Democrats have not discovered it yet. When they finally admit it… will probably be too late.
    If the Muslim jihaddists don’t get us….the Progressives will.
    In 3 years, I predict there will be marches in the streets. There will be violence too, if the ESIU, Acorn and the Obama goon-squads try to stop it.

    • s c

      If you need to read something (don’t be concerned with ultralib basket cases who will never ‘get it’), read anything written by a nut case named Saul Alinsky (start with Rules for Radicals). Try not to puke. Then ask yourself why a rational man or woman could see Alinsky as an icon. Alinsky was not dumb by any means, but he was dangerous. Guess which sitting prez thinks Alinsky’s ideas could make America a better
      If you want an eye-opener in economics, read something by Murray Rothbard. And, if you want to read something that is despised by groups and individuals who hate freedom, read the Constitution.
      For those who love comrade obama and think we live in a perfect world, they can read Dick and Jane – again.

      • Normal Guy

        Well Saul Alinsky is not someone I know much about so I did a little research, Interesting that you would state that he is Obama’s icon. It does not surprise me that Obama would have been interested in his ideas seeing as he was a community organizer in Chicago. This quote may interest you, if I was Obama I would have been interested.
        He stated during an interview a few of the causes for his active organizing in black communities:
        “Negroes were being lynched regularly in the South as the first stirrings of black opposition began to be felt, and many of the white civil rights organizers and labor agitators who had started to work with them were tarred, feathered, castrated — or killed. Most Southern politicians were members of the Ku Klux Klan and had no compunction about boasting of it.”[

        You have read his books – does that mean you agree with everything he wrote?
        In regard to Murray Rothbard Libertarianism is something that I have little time for – a fairytale that leads to anarchism. The premise regarding coercion and how personal freedom must be maximised is better explained by Hale and Hawley. Using the definition based on Hale and Hayek when examining real world situations it can be shown that, far from increasing liberty by reducing coercion, the implementation of libertarian ideas would actually reduce it.

        Oh by the way they did not ask for a reading list they said that they had read books that lead them to their ridiculous conclusions.

        • Willie Stoker

          Those southern politicians that were KKK members were Democrats. I only know of one former kkk leader that is still in the government and he is a Democrat.

          Obama must have agreed with him because most of the Czars he appoints are extreme, self proclaimed Marxists, His mentor for twenty years, The “Reverend” Wright is a Marxist. Obama’s childhood mentor was also a Marxist and also a child molester.
          To say Obama is not a Marxist is just ludicrous.

          • Normal Guy

            How about some names and examples of their “Marxist” connections along with references where these ridiculous accusations come from.

            Typical arguments from this thread just say what you have heard it must be true.

    • Get it right.

      Eveready, I too am old, but I have a question for you. Were there any blacks or minorities (latins) at your tea party? There were none at ours. How can it be that only the whites, think that there are death panels, and rationing? We didn’t have any Asians either. Why would only us whites be so fearful of changing our healthcare plan to include others? If something is being taken away, don’t the people with the least amount of money scream the loudest to try and keep the benefits? We all know and admit that the blacks and latins, do not earn comparable salaries as we do, so why aren’t they upset that they too will lose what we will? When I looked around at my tea party, and saw mainly old gray haired white people such as myself, I immediately thought, something is wrong with this picture. Where are the rest of the people? Has this party become so polarized that we have lost young people and minorities? Just asking for some honest input as to why my party seems mainly old and cranky.

      • David

        No the people with the least amount of money are poised to gain the most from the current administration…..transfer of wealth. So why would they protest against the hand that pays them to live in oppression?

        What you saw was the middle class…you know the ones who pay the taxes.

        • Get it right.

          DAVEH,are you trying to tell me that there are no blacks or minorities on Medicare? They too have a vested interest in if the government cuts any funds. Why aren’t they upset like the rest of us? Are you saying that no blacks understand that their benefits would be effected? I know we have some blacks in this party, two of them are professors at my grandaughters community college. They are on Medicare as they explained to her how to make sure I was getting the most bang for my buck. You aren’t inferring that the minorities on Medicare are the only poor people are you? What are you saying? The middle class consists of more than just us white people. Where is the representation of the minorites in my party? They aren’t visible in any of the meetings or marches.

    • Jimmy G

      The Bankers hand picked Obama in 2004 or before. Why is Robert Gates still Secretary of Defense?

  • Normal Guy

    What books have you read?
    Which people are radicals, terrorists and communists?
    Birther nonsense.

    Pitiful and sad – brainwashed

  • rockeye

    Normal Guy,I Think YOU Are The One Brainwashed My Friend.You Should Listen To Beck,Levin,And Others,Not To Just What Media Matters Say About Them.Yes I Read Media Matters For A Laugh.I Also Watch CNN And Fox News Every Day To See Who Gives Me More News.Care To Guess Why Fox Has Better Ratings At 3:00 Am Than CNN Has At 8:00 Pm?All You Have To Do Is Watch And Learn.Education Is A Key To Freedom And Liberty.What Do You Know About George Soros,VanJones Or The Apollo Alliance Among Others?Did You Know That Obama Did Not Write The Health Care Plan?That’s Why He Don’t Know What’s In It.Did You Know That The Apollo Alliance Wrote First Bill That Obama Tried To Pass So Fast Any One Could Lay Eyes On It.Seems To Me You And Eyeswidopen Need To Educate Your Selves.Get All The Facts You Can Before You Insert Big OL’ Foot.

    • Normal Guy

      I can happily say that I have never read media matters. That you think my information comes from here is funny so I just went and had a look. That was fun, but sorry I don’t get my information from talking point sites. Try BBC CBC the London times, The Sydney Morning herald, as well as all the mainstream media you hate so for not agreeing with your nutty notions. Maybe some actual books on various subjects of interest? You know – knowledge driven information.

      The world media leans toward a viewpoint that is opposed to Fox and the dopes.

    • Get it right.

      Rockeye, did you know that the President is not supposed to write bill? The Congress does that. Lordy, we are in trouble. Now the young people don’t even know that the President isn’t allowed to write bill, tisk, tisk, tisk. You do know that we have three bodies of government don’t you? Executive, Judicial, and the big one Legislative, they are the ones who write the bills. Rockeye, I hope that Eyes has mercy on you, as you deserve to have you butt beat, for not knowing who writes the bills. You make uninformed statements like you did and then expect no repercussions? Delightful, If you were my child, you would be in time out learning about this country!!.

  • Susan

    I agree with Marsha. Jesus is the only one we can put our trust in. We know He is faithful and no matter what happens with the mess being created, if we know Him, we will be saved….maybe not in this life, but for all eternity. When we throw Him out of every possible area of American way of life, then He can’t protect us anymore….the fault lies with us for what’s coming. He loves us and wants to protect us, but we said “no thank you…we don’t want you”. So sad! He wants to know YOU… Him….read the gospel of John in the bible.

    • Maria


    • Willie Stoker

      This Minister had discovered the problem with our society, which is made clear in his prayer.

      This happened several years ago but is still relevant today.

      When Minister Joe Wright was asked to open the new session of the Kansas Senate, everyone was expecting the
      usual generalities, but this is what they heard:

      “Heavenly Father, we come before you today to ask Your forgiveness and to seek Your direction and guidance.
      We know Your Word says ‘Woe to those who call evil good,’ but that is exactly what we have done. We have lost our spiritual equilibrium and inverted our values. We confess that.

      We have ridiculed the absolute truth of Your Word and called it Pluralism.

      We have worshiped other gods and called it multiculturalism.

      We have endorsed perversion and called it alternative lifestyle.

      We have exploited the poor and called it the lottery.

      We have rewarded laziness and called it welfare.

      We have killed our unborn and called it choice.

      We have shot abortionists and called it justifiable.

      We have neglected to discipline our children and called it building self-esteem.

      We have abused power and called it politics.

      We have coveted our neighbor’s possessions and called it ambition.

      We have polluted the air with profanity and pornography and called it freedom of expression.

      We have ridiculed the time-honored values of our forefathers and called it enlightenment.

      Search us, oh, God, and know our hearts today. Try us. Show us any wickedness within us. Cleanse us from every sin and set us free. Guide and bless these men and women who have been sent here by the people of the State of Kansas, and that they have been ordained by you to govern this great state.
      Grant them your wisdom to rule. May their decisions direct us to the center of your will. And, as we continue our prayer and as we come in out of the fog, give us clear minds to accomplish our goals as we begin this Legislature. For we pray in Jesus’ name, Amen.

      The response was immediate. A number of Democratic legislators walked out during the prayer in protest, three others gave speeches critical of Wright’s prayer, and another blasted Wright’s “message of intolerance.” House Minority Leader Tom Sawyer (also a Democrat)
      asserted that the prayer “reflects the extreme, radical views that continue to dominate the House Republican agenda since right-wing extremists seized control of the House Republican caucus last year.” Rep. Jim Long, a Democrat from Kansas City,
      said that Wright “made everyone mad.” But Rep. Powell, who had invited Wright in the first place, claimed that House Democrats were only trying to make political points with their criticism and affirmed that he supported the theme of the prayer.
      In 6 short weeks, Central Christian Church, where Rev. Wright is pastor, logged more than 5,000 phone calls with only 47 of those calls responding negatively. The church is now receiving international requests for copies of this prayer from India, Africa, and Korea.

  • Karl

    Well said Susan. This country is in the shape it is in now because how we have done everything in our power to remove God from our institutions and our daily lives.

    Marsha, God has indeed said that we should store up our treasures (souls of men) in heaven where neither moth nor rust may destroy them, but He also tells us in Proverbs not to be like the sloth (lazy and unprepared, relying on others) and to be like the ant (prepares for the future).

    Willie, your answer for Marsha was spot on, thank you for your well worded post.

    Ann, Gold and Silver have always (centuries) been a storehouse for wealth. These precious metals have always proven to be an excellent form of money and maintains their values much better than fiat currency (i.e. Federal Reserve Notes). Take the good advice of some of the posters I read on this site and store up both of these precious metals in small denominations that will be easy to barter with.

    EyesWideOpen, I didn’t hear a single person on this site claim that the end of the world was upon us. What I mostly read was comments from people who our concerned about the way they see our country moving.

    Many of the things we are doing in this country are quite dangerous to our well being as a nation. We have clearly been headed down the wrong path for nearly a century now and have just about reached the breaking point. Clearly the answer to our economic situation isn’t to spend us in to oblivion.

    There is nothing wrong with stockpiling a little food, water and setting aside some money to live on in a crisis. It is only prudent that one do so and protect their family.

    This crisis was brought on by both parties and regrettably is trying to be solved by many of the worst offenders who created it in the first place.

    The fears being discussed by some on this site are well founded; We can spend trillions of dollars in a short time without suffering the consequences. There is going to have to be major sacrifice by many in this country in the way of higher taxes or an extremely high inflation rate in order to pay for all this irresponsible spending.

    If we are not careful we will go the way of the Roman empire and crumble from the inside out by riotous living and spending ourselves in to oblivion.

    Also, the Bible doesn’t promote Socialism, it promotes theocracy (worship and putting oneself under the authority of The One True God) and it instructs us to care for one another. It never instructs us to throw everything into a common pot and just share everything with our neighbors.

    Mormal Guy, You are correct that we appear to be a very prosperous country. The only reason we have been thus is that the great God of the Universe has blessed us to live in a somewhat free country where we could freely earn a living from the fruit of our labors using the god given abilities he endowed us with. However, day to day those rights and freedoms are sadly being ever so slowly taken away.

    The reason I choose the word appears is because much of the appearance of wealth is just an illusion. Lets just use the years approaching the great depression as an example. The years leading into the great depression appeared to be great years of prosperity for this nation (called the Roaring Twenties), but in reality behind the scenes the Federal Reserve System (in their great wisdom) was pouring tons and tons of money into the system driving it into and over abundance of currency driving it to create many more jobs and even more money. Then in the early Thirties they very quickly pulled much of the money they earlier put into the system out and created a huge depression which very nearly destroyed our economy.

    Until, recently our economy has been being held up by the gracious investors in many foreign countries (especially China). When these investors in these other countries wise up and start to find safer places to invest their wealth (out of the falling dollar and dollar denominated currencies), we will see an accelerated decline of the dollar and a very quick end to our elusive smokescreen of prosperity. So much so that the average unprepared individual will be rioting in the streets. Therefore, our government won’t have much of a choice and will have to take drastic actions to protect it’s citizens (think Martial Law).

    • eyeswideopen

      Karl, Jon, stated “these are the end of times, grab your ankels”, S.C. stated” Misery more than any human can take”. Earlw, stated “likely when the shooting will start”. I don’t know why you addressed that statement towards me, however your statement is not correct, someone did state the end of times. Why were you dragging me into the end of times discussion, I am the one who is an optimist and believes that our President with our help can solve all these issues.
      However I do have a comment to make about the 20′s, there were five tax cuts during that time, which added to the fiscal devastation. It sure appears that you are preaching doom and gloom and rioting in the streets? I never offered anything like that happening.

      • Maria

        Quotes from Thomas Jefferson:

        “My reading of history convinces me that most bad government results from too much government…”

        “The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not.”

        “It is incumbent on every generation to pay its own debts as it goes. A principle which if acted on would save one-half of the wars of the world.”

        • Get it right.

          MARIA, it appears that the rich in this country do not want to work, they are just making money off of the middle class and keeping us from advancing to higher positions. I was sad when my daughter, figured out her percentage of salary increas in the past five years was just 2.8% per year. After all her increases in her utility bill, car insurance, home owners insurance, health insurance, and home owners taxes, she is going backwards. She showed me her car insurance bill, which went up as so many people now live in her zip code, and I just shook my head. She hasn’t had any tickets, accidents and they don’t take into consideration that her car actually depreciates and she is paying more and more. Dave, Big Business is killing the middle class at a very rapid rate. What keeps people movitated if they really can’t get ahead?

          • Willie Stoker

            You need to look to the government more than big business, for keeping us down. The Big business that’s in collusion with the government may be partially to blame.
            If it weren’t for rich people we wouldn’t have jobs, I have never been hired by a poor person.

            If a person works for minimum wage and don’t try to advance, they will always be behind the eight ball. The government keeps raising the minimum wage but all that does is cause the cost of living to go up and we are right back where we started, but the unions are able to raise their wages because of the increase in the minimum wage. It’s just a vicious cycle and all a big game and payback to the unions for helping elect the corrupt politicians.

            It is the liberal way, to blame someone else for your problems and look at yourself as a victim, that’s just what the new leaders of our country are trying to make you believe. It gives them more power to be there for you and to say don’t worry the government is here to help. But we must remember, their “help” is what got into this mess to start with.

            It’s not the rich people’s fault, it’s ours, for letting the government get so out of hand.

          • DaveH

            Big Business can’t force us to buy their products.
            Big Business can’t force their competitors out of business.
            Big Business can’t hobble their competitors with stifling regulations.
            Only with the help of Big Government can Big Business accomplish those things.
            Government is the problem, not the solution.
            Your daughter is suffering because the government is taking too much of the pie. They are killing the Golden Goose.

    • s c

      Well said, Karl. Now, if the ultralibs and all their chums could read and understand English (must be very contagious. it’s infested congress for many years). Isn’t it utterly amazing that some of them still think this circus is just another chapter in party politics?
      Some people have to learn the hard way. This time, the lesson will be expensive in more ways than one.
      I’m fresh out of sympathy. Let the lessons begin. People who are stupid enough or dumbed-down enough to put faith in any government or any bunch of self-made losers deserve whatever happens to them. Call me a pessimist, but I’m betting the ‘Peter Pan and Mary Poppins are my gods’ crowd WILL NOT like it, Karl.

      • Normal Guy


        A nation unto yourself.

        Wow how progressive of you. A return to tribal times is surly the solution. All governments are evil conspiracies move into the woods and fend for yourself. Look out – behind every tree is a fed ready to take away your freedoms, you’ll need more guns.

        Wow, you are really funny in an hysterical kind of way.

        • Willie Stoker

          Could there have been some people like “normal guy” back when we won our freedom from an oppressive government and set up this great nation, that people like him are ready to turn over, to the same kind of abusive leaders, who would like nothing more than to take away what is left of our freedoms.

          “If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquillity of servitude than the animating contest of freedom, — go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen!” Samuel Adams

          • Normal Guy


            You have a very weak understanding of history if you think that the events occurring in this country today compare to the issues prior to the revolutionary war.

            I would love to give you another history lesson as I did with your misinformed and incorrect depiction of the parallels between Hitler and Obama, but you are clearly not interested in facts just Fox/Limbaugh talking points that fit into your delusional world view.

            Lets do a quick overview of your beliefs expressed in this site:
            All politicians are evil and corrupt (Just a silly statement, do you know any?)
            All our freedoms are being taken away (what would those be exactly?)
            Rich people are not evil or corrupt (what about rich politicians?)
            Religion will save us (well maybe we’ll get lucky but God helps those that help themselves)
            The KKK were democrats (You can’t even believe that, not really)
            Everyone Obama appoints is a Marxist (Ridiculous again, names and affiliations would be interesting)
            Obama is a Marxist (No not even close)
            Truth is what each individual thinks it is (Interesting that one, truth relativism Hmmm)
            Obama is a racist just like Hitler (incorrect – see response above)
            Obama wants our guns just like Hitler (incorrect – see response above)
            Obama is a fascist just like Hitler (incorrect – see response above)
            American politicians are evil and Marxist and bent on destroying the country
            Hoarding silver and gold is necessary because the country is going to have a complete financial meltdown. (Get a sandwich board – the world is coming to an end)
            Socialism is evil and the bible tells us to hate evil our government is socialist so hate the government
            All politicians are bad but the Democrats are trying to make the US a Marxist country.
            There are two kinds of Marxists elite and idiots (Interesting, get that out of a textbook somewhere)

            When you look at all your beliefs they are pretty much the same fear and hate tactics that the Nazi’s used to get power in Germany. Fear over the economy, fear of Marxism, directed hate towards scapegoats and foster a belief that a group is holding you down (Jews and the financial system, rather than the US government), ultra- Nationalism. I think you sound like more of a Nazi than Obama.

            Like I said before – do just a bit of real research on your beliefs, they are vapid.

  • s c

    Regardless of the drivel ultralibs want us to believe, the Chinese government is encouraging its people to BUY GOLD. In other words, the almighty dollar is living on borrowed time.
    So what will comrade obama do to ‘save’ the dollar?
    In the words of SNL, jack squat obama will do nothing (what ‘talent’).
    All those decades of denial and pooh-pooing at the Fed were words designed to keep Americans dumb and (somehow) happy and on our way to the poor house.
    When the stuff hits the fan, it would be fitting to have a special recognition party for those many ‘leaders’ who lied and said gold is a barbaric relic. These are the same slime balls who were artificially depressing the price of gold (you can’t play first-rate hell with the economy unless
    you have access to printing presses 24/7).
    I admire the Chinese for their honesty. As for Washington, they can go to the moon and sell beach front property to anyone who can get a bailout loan from comrade obama and his stooges. Payback is going to be ‘interesting’ (a wonderful Chinese expression).

    • Normal Guy

      So you are predicting a total collapse of the United States. Nice, I love how excited you are about it, just can’t wait can you.

      Care to explain why that is in the interest of China, Europe, Opec etc. Is this great calamity going to be driven by those that are conspiring to take over the US government? Bilderberg, the tri-lateral commission, the boogeyman.

      You clearly have no understanding of global economics, you are also exaggerating the current state of the US economy. There will be inflation and there will be constrained growth but the inflation will help reduce the magnitude of the debt. Americans will have to work to re-establish a work ethic – they can’t use equity in their homes as a bank machine. Rebuilding will take time, it will be tough.

      You should also do some research on currency, your archaic ideas regarding money are un-informed. The only reason that gold and silver had value as a currency is because they were used as a store of wealth against goods originally barley etc. The only real value is in commodities, trading commodities is not an option. Printed notes have a biased towards inflation, so what! Real value is all I really care about, do we have more goods and services available are we better off regarding heath etc.

      You really need to expand beyond your simple talking points. Not likely is it?

      • Willie Stoker

        Abnormal guy, if you have no understanding of reality at all, maybe you shouldn’t be on a forum making a fool of yourself.

        You need to crawl back in a hole with the other brain dead liberals and exchange information with them, they like to hear that sort of twisted logic, in fact they thrive on it.

        You are a prime example of what comes out of the government indoctrination schools. If the Truth came and knocked you down, you would get up, dust yourself off and walk tight over it.
        I have seen a lot of liberals but you must be the most confused one I have ever encountered.

        If you ever find the truth, it will set you free.

        • Normal Guy


          You are opinionated, ignorant and ill informed. Whenever any kind of response does not agree with you, you ignore it. I am just interested in lifting this rock to see what kind of slime is under it. I am more than happy to look at legitimate ideas and comment on them.

          The delusional, misinformed, advocators of violence and hate that are presented here are generally below contempt.

          I am still waiting for a response regarding your incorrect and right wing propaganda views on Nazi Germany and the parallels with Obama.

          Clearly the educational system that you emerged from that created such a nimble intellect must be far superior to the universities in this country, or anywhere in the west. Fill me in on the development of such a sharp mind that spews ridiculous unsubstantiated rumour and thinks he has the facts. Whatever the system was hopefully the exterminators have located and removed it. The USA does not need more ignorant zealots like you.

  • Paul

    This person named “eyes wide open” has really got their eyes really shut. Socialism is not remotely Biblical. Study more before just throwing out a bunch of mindless blather.

    • DaveH

      I wonder who the Liberals will throw at us when Eyes finally accepts that she has become irrelevant.

      • DaveH

        or He.

        • Normal Guy

          Right the “Liberals” are all plotting trying to figure out how to overcome your brilliant positions regarding… oh right, you don’t have any rational positions just a lot of conspiracy, libertarian, paranoid, delusional garbage.

          Care to respond to any of the libertarianism is a joke stuff. How about New Zealand, Chile. How about the issues regarding coercion?

          Anything other than your simple talking points would be a nice change

      • Get it right.

        DAVEH, why don’t you like Eyes? Is it because she requires you to think out of your box? Even thou, I am a Republican, I must admit, she does make some good points. Some of them, I don’t want to accept, as I didn’t do anything about most of the issues that she brings up. My parents taught me that if you are going to complain, you better have made an attempt to fix it first. I wanted to think that my leaders were the smart ones and had experience in handling money, better than the tax and spend Democrats. In retrospect, they didn’t and now, instead of just voting R on my ticket, I will use this internet to learn about the people running. It will certainly be more work than before. But us old people need to be smarter and use the tools available to help pull us out of this mess. Eyes challenges you and you don’t like that one little bit, you really shouldn’t disrespect her so much. You aren’t going to be right in everything that you say, can’t learn if you are closed off. Just an old lady’s observations.

    • eyeswideopen

      please see link under Jimmy G.

  • Nobel What A Prize

    Other Nobel prizes Obama could win.

    The Nobel Prize in Literature for the book titled “The 1000 page Healthcare Bill”.

    The Nobel Prize in medicine, for showing 100 doctors in white jackets can prove all doctors support your Healthcare Bill.

    The Nobel Prize in Economic Sciences for the term jobless recovery.

    The Nobel Prize in physics for proving Werner Karl Heisenberg was wrong you can measure nothing.

    BHO mmm mmm mmm

    To save you time in looking up Werner Karl Heisenberg he won the Nobel Prize in physics in 1932.

    The story goes something like this if you can see it you can’t measure it you can measure it you can’t see it. Don’t ask me to explain he got the Nobel prize for it.

    Some times I need an adjustment to my Heisenberg compensator. LOL….

  • Jimmy G

    The Bible does speak of being liberal with your own money, not taking your neighbors money to be liberal with.

  • Carl

    The question was asked how would you reduce the size of Government.

    Fair Tax.

    It will get rid of almost a quarter of Government and stop these corrupt politicians from avoiding taxes.

    It would remove the IRS.

    There would be no need for the IRS.
    All taxes are on sales not on income.

    So even those illegals working under the radar and living here would pay their fair share until we are able to boot them out of this fine country.

    We would get rid of a lot of programs that Government seems are needed to protect a few people who don’t want to work.

    One thing is to get rid of all the perks Government has. Like forever paychecks if you become a Senator or Congressman.

    Holy grail of health care if you become a Senator or Congressman.

    Working 2 days a week while we have to work 5 to 6 to 7 days a week to make ends meet. Think about it they give themselves perks that we can only dream of and then they cut their work hours to 2 days a week? While asking us to give them another pay raise.

    When as God fearing, freedom loving, citizens are we going to say enough is enough?

    We need to end the corruption NOW!!!

    People are fearful of trouble? Why? Our Government has been working towards a second revolution since the beginning of 1900′s. We need to take back our Constitution and our Government. I don’t care what other countries think of us. They fear us and loath us for being better and fighting our corrupt politicians. They just lie down and let themselves get run over. They expect us to do the same. We are the greatest nation on earth. I am proud to be an American. Just like the song says. I am not going to just lay down while people like Rangel and Frank and Pelosi and Obama destroy this country.

    Hell no!

    • Get it right.

      Carl, you think that a fair tax would solve all our problems? I agree with a flat tax, but I don’t see how it would solve many issues we have now. You aren’t thinking of getting rid of SS or Medicare are you?

      • Carl

        Have you read the threads? No the fair tax would solve all the problems but it would get rid of the IRS. We as Americans need to take back our country from the special interests, the racists, the bigots, the unAmericans.

        You are either part of the answer or part of the problem.

        I like to think I am part of the answer. If enough people are part of the answer we will have answers and get problems fixed.

        Just like a journey of 1000 miles starts with a single step.

        To fix a problem starts with enough people wanting the answers.

        Why do dictators destroy countries?

        Because the people believe in the propaganda news of the country and are afraid to protest in case they get jailed or killed.

        If enough people rise up there will be no Dictator.

        So are you a lion wanting change or a chicken afraid of the farmers axe?

        It takes a lot of courage to fix whats wrong.

        It takes a lot of courage to stand up to our elected officials.

        We put them there.

        WE DID so why are we afraid of them?

        We are not afraid of them.

        They are corrupt and are wanting us to believe that this country will fall apart if we get rid of corrupted officials.

        It will not. What we need are sweeping reforms. Cut the size of Government. The Government works for US. We do not work for the Government.

        The quicker we remember that the quicker we can fix the problem.

        • Normal Guy

          I would say you are neither a lion nor a chicken, more of a loon.

          Ever heard of a regressive tax, you know when the tax puts the less well off into a higher tax position just by trying to pay their bills? Any consideration about trying to motivate business investment, you know capital cost investments.

          Simplistic solutions come from simplistic people, if you had ever run any business, or learned anything about operational procedures, the idea that it is simple would not be your mantra. Complexity is the nature of our world, you think simplicity will solve the problem, I think you don’t have a clue.

          • Willie Stoker

            Perhaps you should try to understand the fair tax before you make any judgments, it is obvious that you haven’t read it. If you just depend on the liberal politicians and the “fringe media”, that like to call themselves the “mainstream media, you are never going to understand what it is all about. They don’t want you to know.

  • Joshkennedy

    We might throw names at each other. But we are all upset at our american jobs. Can the liberals hear that flushing sound. We take in to much import. Our USA currency is on a list at no. 38 stable. Canada is @ 14. The last 15 years we let both / all types of politicians sell us out. Bush 1 started NAFTA and Billy C. + Dems nailed the coffin shut. Popular review of NAFTA showed all 3 big countries rich and elite made hugh profits. While USA jobs decrease thus depressing our strength, will, hope, pride, security and trust. Us coin, seed and ammo hiding nuts, Will SURVIVE. Bring your voting card when you come to ask me for water or food. Me squirrel – you Beggar.

    • eyeswideopen

      Josh, you are right, Nafta, has had negative impacts on farmers in Mexico and US workers in manufacturing industries. From 1994 to 2007 net US manufacturing employment has declined by 3,654,000. It passed the house with a vote of 132 Republicans to 102 Democrats. It did not get enough votes in the Senate to pass as a Treaty. Since jobs were lost over a period of 13 years the American people were kinda alseep at the wheel. Appears that the rich once again got something passed that benefited only them.

      • eyeswideopen

        that to, was supposed to be and for a total of 234. oops

    • Thurman Marcum


      The labor unions were the first ones protesting this stupidity.George Bush Senior and Bill Clinton should had their butts kick.Nafta was a bad idea,from the start as well as the present day.Everyone knows it cost us dearly.

    • Jimmy G

      All our ‘Junk’ silver has doubled just this year. I’m squirreling away to, brother.

  • Normal Guy


    That is the best laugh I have had in a long time. My sides hurt. That is some complex delusion, probably a Psychology text book in there. Oh, thanks I needed a really good laugh; I have copied this to show some friends.

    Paranoid much?

    • Thurman Marcum


      That is Joe Barns,I bet he has change his identity.I think the piss ants will take over.I heard them say, get Thurman.

      What do you think?

      Ha ha ha ha

      • Normal Guy


        Sorry I am a bit confused, what did I miss in your comment. I think you are a very rational man and I would like to understand what you are referring to.

        • Thurman Marcum


          I was making light of Fatguy,that rambling of his.I have got a sense of humor too.I didn’t mean to confuse you.I was only joking.

        • Normal Guy

          Thanks I thought it might be a bizzare quote from something that I most certainly would have had to read.

          I say again WOW how do you get that many twisted ideas in one paragraph. Call Guiness.

        • Thurman Marcum


          Brief me on what twisted ideas?That guote on the ants, that is a joke and only a joke, or the orgin of the left and right term.That is historical facts.

        • Thurman Marcum


          I mispel quote.

          • Normal Guy


            I get it sorry about the confusion, I honestly thought there might be some reference, I get it is just a joke. I was just curious if there was a further reference. The reference to Guiness, was regarding fatguys paragraph, how can so many conspiracy elements be included in one paragraph, must be a record..

      • eyeswideopen

        LMAO< very good!

        • Thurman Marcum


          What twisted ideas is Normal talking about? This is only a joke at Fatguy’s expense.

          • eyeswideopen

            Thurman, he wasn’t referring to you, he was asking how Fatguy, could make so many disconnected ideas in his closing paragraph. The conspiracies running through out his closing. Thurman, Norm respects you as I do, so it wasn’t a dig at you.

  • fubsey

    As a 72 year old disabled vet I only know one thing for sure, that God is in control of everything and everyone will answer to him sooner or later. The USA and the world is on a down hill spiral and I hope I am not here to see it.
    Praise the Lord

    • Thurman Marcum


      Welcome to the internet.

  • Thurman Marcum


    THE term left,right and moderate started at the time of the French revolution,there were three groups that sat in the assembly,one group sat on the left,one group in the middle and the other on the right. The left became known as the left wing which was pushing progressive liberal reforms,the right wing conserative wanted to keep traditional values,and the middle was neither conserative or liberal,it was later on called moderate.What you are referring to is the illuminatti a secret organization that is control by sinster men and women,who want to rule the world,have no fear they don’t exist.I bet you got that off the internet.

    • eyeswideopen

      Thurman, I remember when my boss told me about the Illuminatti, I was paranoid for months, I was very young and trusted my boss, He was from CT. and had so much wordly experience. About 9 months after, a visiting engineer to our company who also had a degree in political science laughed and explained that it wasn’t true. But then he told me all about the Mason’s and I didn’t feel much better. Young and naive. LOL. Now people here say I’m old and naive. Naive being the constant!! LMAO.

      • Willie Stoker

        Well, one important thing to remember is, Just because it is a conspiracy thepry, doesn’t mean it’s not true.

  • Walter W

    Hey All

    Just to let you know that the impetus for all the downgrading of the US Dollar and the situation we find this country in at the present can be traced back to the elimination of the US Dollar / Gold backing. We have only dollars which can be manufactured by the federal reserve by means of the printing press with no backing by anything ( except the ability of the federal government to take anything of any value from any of the citizens it wishes to).
    May we all live in interesting times!

  • Walter W

    Remember, the federal reserve is only a bank, and not an official branch of the US Government.

  • John

    A safety deposit box, or any other form of property storage for that matter, is not considered “bank, securities, or other financial accounts” and doesn’t have to be reported.

    The governement doesn’t know about the storage unit where you placed your furniture, and for the same reason: it’s not a “bank, securities, or other financial account.” The same goes for precious metals storage.

  • ted

    I’ve read all this right and left rep & dem stuff and you guys aren’t going to convince each other of anything. I do remember president Kennedy wanting to audit the fed and he is no longer with us. Was Oswald a useful idiot?

  • ted


  • beachcomber

    With the never-ending printing of more money, would anyone recommend cashing out an IRA, pay the government the 10% penalty and buying gold with the proceeds? It’s something I have been thinking about lately.

  • Toy

    Find a good hiding place: Cayman Islands?

    Confiscated around $20 and re-valued at $35!


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