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“Health Care”—a Cover for Euthanasia

May 22, 2009 by  

“Health Care”—a Cover for Euthanasia

Murder is acceptable if it can be made benevolent, passed off as "health care.” We have long advocated that vaccines are an assault upon the people under the pretense of health care. It is forced medication through persuasion.

"Health care" in America is a system of killing off weak infants and aging adults. This is not largely suspected because of the disassociation of cause and effect. Nobody even suspects. The mode is vaccinations and inoculations.

If there is a very rare protest, the "authorities" just say that an occasional death is unavoidable and is for the "greater good." That term the "greater good" is statist philosophy that the people are cattle and some have to be sacrificed.

But mass inoculations kill en masse. It is silent murder as "health care." This killing system is being perfected and fine-tuned without so much as a ripple of protest. Would you say the "perfect crime"? Incredible? Yes, the more incredible, the more perfect the crime.

Examples:

  • Autistic children because of mercury vaccines.
  • AIDS epidemic in Africa associated with the use of SIV—Simian Immunodeficiency Virus. (Monkey-human genetic virus.)
  • Two experimental AIDS vaccines have just been foisted on citizens of Thailand with a propaganda appeal for patriotism and a plea for people to think of "the greater good." The drug company goal is to force mandatory AIDs vaccinations.
  • Urine samples from hundreds of French children have yielded evidence for a link between autism and exposure to heavy metals.
  • Anthrax vaccines were forced on U.S. soldiers which proved unsafe and unnecessary. The deaths were admitted along with a wide-range of autoimmune disorders. Government involved in cover-up.
  • A new vaccine to "protect" against a common sexually transmitted disease in children ages 8 to 12. This is a vaccine against immoral behavior. What next?
  • The bird flu hype has been fanned by public health officials using fear to keep the public scared.

Vaccines kill natural immunity. Natural exposure to "germs" in childhood can lead to natural immunity and long-term health. Health authorities kill infectious microorganisms with the mass use of multiple vaccines.

So-called "public health" is a cover for mass medication and selective killing, at first "voluntary" and then mandatory. To understand what this means watch the movie "Soylent Green" with Charlton Heston and Edwin G. Robinson.

You can stay informed about vaccines at the National Vaccine Information Center, www.nvic.org.

Bob Livingston

is an ultra-conservative American and author of The Bob Livingston Letter™, founded in 1969. Bob has devoted much of his life to research and the quest for truth on a variety of subjects. Bob specializes in health issues such as nutritional supplements and alternatives to drugs, as well as issues of privacy (both personal and financial), asset protection and the preservation of freedom.

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  • Ben Rains

    Agree 100%. I don’t want some nobody sitting in some dark secluded office deciding whether I should receive a new heart at age 70, or should they deny my request because of cost and age so they can give a new brain, hopefully one that works this time, to Obama! ! ! ! ! !
    The Health Plan does not work in Europe or Canada and it will not work here. It will aid in bankrupting this Nation. It is nothing more than leaglized government euthinasia! ! ! ! !

    • Gordon Leigh

      You should talk to some Canadians and Europeans. I own a photo lab that takes
      many immigration and green card photos. I regularly ask these people about their
      countrys healthcare. Even the ones that have lived in our country for years are unwilling to give up their foreign citizenship due to their healthcare and oldage benefits. We are being duped as to their health care systems not working-our’s
      definately doesn’t!

    • Edward

      But, dear friend, don’t you know that American tinkering can fix anything! Don’t they remember the attempts to establish utopian societies in the 1700′s or 1800′s? Transported to America the utopian dreams fizzled just as badly. A bad idea is not improved by a geographic shift. What made America unique was that we had not better tinkering but better initiative, unfettered by government’s clumsy intervention. Now, with the bumbling asses in D.C., I don’t know. Universal Health care in America will be no better than it is anywhere else. Euthanasia is NOT health care because dead people have no health.

    • Luvenia

      I read this article twice and unless I missed something it has nothing to do with a national health care. This article talks about the way our health care has been operating for generations. Please go to the link below and try to watch the video with an open mind. We have one of the worst health care systems in the world. They live longer than we do and it cost less. Is their way perfect, no, can it be improved, of course. Now how sad to say that even with their problems they are better off than we are.

      http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/sickaroundtheworld/

      • OHIO RESIDENT

        Please writting or call Senator Voinovich regard Healthcare Issue; Below are email sent to him and contact information to his office- Let your voice be heard.

        I am for a health care competition or Public Option.
        I don’t care for a Democrat Party that much, but it appears you (Republican Party) are more concern of Republican Party’s theology then resolving the health care problem or conduct a politic as usual. Senator you have been represented the Ohio from Governor to senator for long time, yet you appear to represent the Republican Party and a special interest parties than what is best for Ohio’s residents.

        It disgusts me to see any party or you play politic with the health care issue. Especially, to a simple concept of opening health care for competition; it should not be distort and play into politic as usual. What is so hard to understand a simple concept of competition or a common sense that a competition will reduce health care price/cost? Please stop using national debt as excuse on the healthcare issue or to say wait until a Republican Party in control again then you will deal/fix the healthcare issue. It’s exactly what you do when only one or none of republican senator vote yes. As Ohio resident I am sad and disgust with any representative played politic over the needing of change and improves of health care.

        Again, there should not be politic or any excuse anymore from you, especially, when you/Republican Party had been in control very long time and done none on the health issue; and to continue to be in the way or not willing to work out matter to what the voters have voted for (the change) is a shame.

        I understand that we concern of nation debts, however, we spending money on other issues a lot more, example: War and etc… To use debt and/or any other issues to play politic or represent an especially interest on the healthcare is unacceptable, while a lot of Ohio and/or U.S. Citizen needs of a health insurance. There is no doubt both parties will not get what they want, but for a Republican Party to play politic as usual is sickness. I respectfully ask you to work out a competition/public option or do a compromise with the parties in control; I ask you to vote yes for public option.

        Dayton, OH Office:
        (Based out of Cincinnati)
        36 East 7th Street, Room 2615
        Cincinnati, OH 45202
        Main: (513) 684-3265
        Fax: (513) 684-3269

        Central, OH Office:
        37 West Broad Street
        Room 310
        Columbus, OH 43215
        Main: (614) 469-6697
        Fax: (614) 469-7733
        Cincinnati, OH Office:
        36 East 7th Street
        Room 2615
        Cincinnati, OH 45202
        Main: (513) 684-3265
        Fax: (513) 684-3269

        Washington, DC Office:
        524 Hart Senate Office Building
        Washington, DC 20510
        Main: (202) 224-3353

  • Barry

    Dear Mr Livingston,

    There’s also another manner in which patients are euthanized.
    My sister was wittness and a surviving victim to it at Oschner’s Clinic while in their ICU in the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina. The man in the bed next to her was given medication which interacted with his current medications and he actually died of the interaction. The head nurse “Shirlene” said to one of the new nurses, when she became emotional about the so-called “mix-up” in medication, this guy has had a good long life and it’s time for him to go anyway, besides which no one will ever know what actually happened to him in the end analysis.

    My sister has had R.A. since the age of 7 She’s highly crippled and quite incapable of fending for herself physically.
    Nurse Shirlene addressed my sister, who was in 4-point restraints with a breathing tube down her throat unable to move or respond, telling her they’d taken her off her prescribed medications and were actually giving her every medication she was supposed to be allergic to yet she…..”still don’t have the good God-damned sense to just die and quit being a financial burden on your family and society”….
    Shirlene poked fun and denegraded my sister openly to her face at every possibility.

    This and even more emotionally unraveling events took place and wittnesses came foreward relating it to my parents. During the federal investigation those wittnesses couldn’t be found, medical records with Dr Lockwood’s personally hand written orders to medicating my sister with all known allergants ultimately dissappeard as well before federal investigation began looking for them.
    Dr Oschner and Shirlene ultimately in the end were ordered to take refesher classes in records keeping and patient relations, a mere slap on the wrist.

    In phone conversations I’d had with federal agents it was inferred to me that I cease and dessist fueling the federal investigation….because ….”criminality in that region knows no state boundaries to silencing wittnesses and protagonists to medical crime or any crime for that matter”… One FBI official related to me that they actually had a problem getting wittnesses to crimes in this region to court to testify before they dissappeared never to be found or heard from again.
    It was further stated to me that if they actually prosecuted all the medical criminal actions that came to the forefront, in the aftermath of Katrina, it would actually create a healthcare vacuum in that region of the US, Not just New Orleans. It would be a regional problem.

    I became enlightened, needless to say, about medical profession legislation in place in Louisiana caping settlements in lawsuits over mal-practice making it virtually impossible to prosecute deliberate mal-practice. Even if one were to have the financialy deep pockets to go after it for principal and morals/ethics violations, let alone shear attempted murder, it would certainly be tossed out of court because as I was also informed even the judiciary are equally corrupt in that region of the US.

    In, open communication conversation only, I was told by one law firm to successfully prosecute anyone over such criminal actions, those bringing suit would have to hire 24/7 security for not only one’s personal family, but also the legal firm as well as wittnesses till the lawsuit had been successfully litigated and settled.

    After being politely and eloquently told to stop, by multiple federal investigative individuals for mine and my families own welfare and safety, I did.

    Barry Frye
    (859) 431-0494

    • http://www.arkansasboergoats.com Lesia

      Can you give more information to back up my concern on the mumps, measels, rubella shot given to chilgren. My grandson is one and the health office is wanting to start his one year vaccinations. I have some concerns abou the raltion to this vaccine and autisim, but can not find any information to back my refusal for the shot……

      • Disgusted with the deception

        Lesia, Try Dr. Mercola’s site at http://www.mercola.com I have read several articles about the link between vaccinations and autism and I believe it was on the mercola site. Good luck, and keep fighting for your grandson.

        • 13th Gen. American

          The star Jenny McCarthy, Has a son with autism from shots and she did tons and tons of research from many different doctors. There is alot of info on it if you google Jenny McCarthy/ autusm. youll find something I’m sure.I say get the shots we all got because you never heard of it back in the day. Wait on the others. Good luck.

        • sandra dunakin

          Lisa, I was watching a program on Thursday on one of the Public broadcasting station and there was a program on this very subject.
          There were medical professional, a woman with a military uniform, a mom who wants to be able to refuse this vaccine and a family doctor who has moms who are forming this exact question. The mother was actually called ignorant by one of the women who is advocating every child needs to have this vaccination or she would become the one responsible for any outbreaks. I wish I was able to recall the name of the program but it followed one about baby turtles being saved by moving them to a new location. I will try to remember and post the name of the program if I remember. It was kind of like a round table, everyone sitting in a circle and the commentator injecting his say so whenever he felt the call.
          Good luck and remember that is your child and not the goverments. They may have aquired 50% of the auto industry but they can not be allowed to own 50% of our children….

    • Ronald W. Sprague

      The physician and signer of the U.S. Constitution, Benjamin Rush said, “Unless
      we put medical freedom into the Constitution, the time will come when medicine
      will organize into an undercover dictatorship to restrict the art of healing
      to one class of men and deny equal privileges to others; the Constitution of
      the Republic should make a special privilege for medical freedms as well as
      religious freedoms.” Benjamin Rush’s picture appears on the seal of the
      American Psychiatric Assocation, and he is considered the “father” of American
      psychiatry.

  • s c

    At first, it may not be easy to force the legal system to focus on the overlapping role(s) of MDs, Congress, the AMA, FDA and the drug cartel. However, after what was done to the tobacco industry, you can be sure that lawyers are networking and drooling at the prospect of making the tobacco circus look like a podunk garage sale. Maybe they may can band together and remember why they went to law school (to help people?). Bring it on, America. When it comes to health care, results matter most. As long as our health care system ignores overbilling, in-hospital drug overdoses, insurance firms that cancel policies on a whim, botched surgeries and drug side-effects that are worse than diseases, Americans cannot afford to view substandard medical treatment with good intentions or sheepish acceptance.

  • http://www.FoodForFashion.com Sylvia

    Remember Terry Sheivo? That was our government health care at work. All her parents wanted to do was take her home and take care of her but the court (government) decided she must be killed by starvation. None of her organs had stopped so there was no plug to pull. But because she could not speak for herself, her husband and the government killed her. That “teddy bear” picture was an insult to all of us. See, doesn’t she look peaceful? It reminded me of that movie where they put sunglasses on a dead guy and moved him from party to party–or something. (stupid movie).

    • debra

      Please….no one would want to live..for years ..the way she was . Most people do not understand the dying process. As an RN, and many years working with terminal pts. ,they do not experiece hunger,thrist, like we do. It also makes their death a little more easier because all the gastric fluids via feeding tube causes the pt.to drown in their own fluids..The feeding of dying pts is more for the familys comfort than the pt.

      • http://www.FoodForFashion.com Sylvia

        Who are you to tell me if I want to live like that or not? You know what I want? My family might want me dead if I am a burden to them. But Terry’s parents wanted to take her home and care for her and they were not allowed to because of our government’s lawmakers. It was torment for them to watch her suffer as she died. YES, they said they watched her SUFFER. But even if she did not suffer, our government should not be making laws to kill the weak. The medical profession thinks they know so much. I have had a go round with them myself. They don’t even believe what the pt. says if some “expert” says differently. I am not angry with you though. I am dreading this universal health care being forced upon us. The government has historically abused citizens via the medical profession.

        • debra

          I know you are not angry we me Sylvia..We are in very scary times..we cant trust the gov. We are afraid we have put another Hitler in office..and we dont what is going to happen to us. And then to think they want to manage our health care..GEEZ…

        • Elle

          I agree with you Sylvia and I too am an R.N. who has cared for thousands of patients not only in the E.R. but in ICU and long term convalescent homes . I learned early on that older patients are NOT given the treatments they need for survival if they have no family. If they have family they stand a small chance of getting treatments but even that is a fight if the patient was given a Living Will to sign and they did it without thinking. The government already feels that they can control many aspects of our lives and it’s because we were either not paying attention when the changes came about or we didn’t think too much of the changes at the time. It is out of control right now, especially with the health care and it will only get worse if Obama’s so called “healthcare reform” takes place – the government has ruined anything they “run” so don’t fall for the socialized medicane he is pushing. I don’t have a good answer for our woes but is NOT letting the federal gov’t get their hands on anything as important as our health care. Terry Sciavo was killed by our government and the nurses and doctors who “cared” for her — her parents could not say or do anything — she was stupid’s wife – not their daughter in the eyes of our gov’t – sad scenario — yes- and totally wrong.

        • Rob

          Give her hell Sylvia!

      • MOMSRIGHT

        Debra, You are right when you say most people do not understand the dying process, just because you are an RN and have seen people die doesn’t mean you understand it either! How do you know they don’t experience hunger or thirst? If Terry Sheivo could have spoken I am sure she would have said she was hungry and thirsty after her feeding tube was pulled and fluids with held! I hope that if I ever suffer from a terminal disease I will not have the misfortune of having you as my nurse! People are not just flesh and blood! They are not like cars that get religated to the junk pile because their parts break down! They way you describe it makes it sound so logical so scientific So cold! People exist in the Spiritual realm. They are creations of God! Who are you to say what they know or don’t know? It is people like you who justify the cold calculated dismissal of the value of human life! You do it through Abortion because babies in the womb are just tissue, fetuses, they don’t feel anything when their little brains are being sucked out, or their arms torn from their body! You do it to the crippled or mentally retarded or those who can’t speak for themselves because they are helpless to defend themselves! You do it to the old and infirm because their usefullness is run out! And you do it all ever so compassionately! Maybe, it is the intention of God for families to suffer through the dying process with their loved ones because we have something to learn from those who are dying, like real compassion! Compassion that thinks caring for and tending to the needs of those who are weak and vulnerable, is what real love is! It is not about putting them out of their misery for their own good and mostly for our convience! Quit playing God! You don’t know! You only imagine you know!

        • debra

          Momsright….how in the world did you get abortion in this dog fight? I am a Christion, a repubician,and consevative. and opposed to abortion. Now back to first ..as a Mom I am sure you know when you look at your child and your eyes meet…you know the connection. That`s the point..Terry was gone.. yes her body was there but her brain was so deprived of O2 that the Terry her parents knew was gone.The spirit had already left. I wish adults were required to take dying classes like when required to givve

        • debra

          I keep getting cut off….what I was trying to say dying classes like for giving birth. And we are educated as RN on the dying process. We help to educate the familys and the pt. as to what to expect. Momsright death is part of our life. We are not here forever..and we have to accept that. I am a very compassionate nurse..and my pts know that. As I said I just hope to make their trip a little easier for them and the family.

        • Rob

          Debra, abortion is relavent to this topic. Because this is about “them” deciding who lives and who dies.

          Let me tell you something about abortion that I never hear brought up.
          An unborn fetus is not a woman’s body, and she has no right to choose if the fetus lives or dies. Its not a cancer tumor.
          Heres why.

          The fetus has its own seperate genetic code, that differs from both its mother and father. That alone indicates that from the moment of conception, a fetus is a third party. It is not up to the mother, father, or government to decide when a fertilized egg becomes a person.
          So put that science in its rightfull place.

          If society does not value human life, then we wind up with a society that only values productive human life. We get a society that places no value on those who cannot contribute, or who can no longer contribute. Children are valued, because they have potential. The elderly are not. They have passed their potential, and are no longer of value. Hitler called them, and people like them, “Useless Eaters.”

          The slickest stealth killing machine the world has ever known.
          The Nazi’s had nothing on us…

      • Sheri

        You are not God and you have no right to decide who lives or dies-only He does.

        • debra

          I dont decide when a pt dies nor does anyone else. If a tube that is inserted d irectly into the stomach with thick orange colored liquid was not put in the pt s stomach then they would have died..Gods choice right? But me dical stepped in prolonged the life..God did that. My word .What happened back about 50 years ago? Just because medicine can keep someone alive ..doesnt mean we should. I dont mean to make every one angry..please go to the bookstore or you local lib. and check out books on death and dying,the end life..plenty of resources out there.

      • Carolyn

        Debra, nurse or no nurse, I disagrree with you about considering this humane for Terri. First of all, we are all terminal in the sense that some day
        we are all going to die.
        Terri had some disabilities and she was improving until her adulterous husband wanted her dead so he could marry the woman he was lliving with and they had 2 children.
        When food and water (basics in llife) are withheld, death is guaranteed. Dehydration causes much suffering.

        And while you mention people not wanting to live in that condition, let me remind you of Christopher Reeves. You and I might say we wouldn’t want to live like that but until you are faced with such circumstances, you might change your mind.
        Terri’s husband’s attorney was a Euthansia doctor. Imagine that.
        Life is precious and man doesn’t qualify to say who should live and who should die; only the Creator.
        So we witnessed Supreme Court Judges making a decision that was out and out murder; they felt qualified to play God. Talk about delusional.
        You would do time if this were done to an animal yet human life was treated as nothing.
        I followed all the court action and letters from her attorneys and you have no idea of all the details that the Media withheld from the public. Of course that’s nothing new.
        Isn’t it strange that the Nat’l. Guard could go in to rescue Elian Gonzeles but they couldn’t rescue Terri. Money talks and her husband had it because after he won the case in court supposedly to care for Terri’s disabilities, he stopped allowing any therapy to be given to her. She lost some teeth, wasn’t allowed to have drapes open, no fresh air, no tv, no radio and no reporters.
        Remember, what was done to Terri can happen to any of us. Don’t ever get the idea that because it didn’t happen to you that it doesn’t matter.
        We reap what we sow and when Life is no longer respected- it’s all downhill after that.
        After watching the bozos in Congress and the President, these are exactly who you don’t want in charge of your health care.
        Watching the fast forward downhill destruction of a Free Enterprise system makes you think of a Scripture–”In one hour Babylon is fallen.” Those who love Death, hate Life.
        Without repentance and turning back to God, America is doomed. Brought to you by the U.S. Congress and its turncoats.
        “What profiteth a man to gain the world and loose his soul?” There are no shopping malls in Hell so don’t even consider compromise.

    • Barry

      Debra,
      The stupid movie was Ken Russell’s “S.O.B.”
      Barry

    • Rob

      Yeah, Weekend at Bernies. I loved that movie….
      Anyway, this was an excellent article. I have been saying there is a silent holocaust going on in America for a very long time.

      Another way they dispose of people, is through Hospice. I have known lots of people wjo had loved ones put into hospice. Some were killed off through starvation, and dehydration. Some were given lethal doses of morphine for their “pain” dispite not wanting morphine, and stating repeatedly that they had no pain. I can state not all hospices are the same. But the ones that do practice these goulish policies, are nothing more than systematic killing machines. And this wholesale slaughter goes on right under our noses.
      From the time we were kids, we are taught when a pet gets sick, you “put it down.” That its better to be dead than sick. “Put it down” is a polite way to say kill it. As children, we are taught that this is whats best. As adults, we draw on our past experiences. You don’t put people down. You don’t put pets down. You hang in there with them, and when their time comes, they will die on their own. When a person’s time comes, there is no stopping death. I see no reason to hasten death.
      From an insurance standpoint, the reasoning may be, that if a person is terminal, then the quicker they die, the cheaper it is on the insurance company. From a numbers standpoint, that makes total sense. But these are human lives. Its fundamentally immoral, and has to stop. If insurance companies do not have the stomach to play a tight game in regards to profit, then perhaps they should find another industry.
      My wife’s 86 year old father fell out of his wheelchair in the hospital and badly cut his knee. He was on coumadin, and was bleeding profusely. After being helped back into the wheelchair, he was told somebody would be by to attend to his cut. For an hour, he sat there bleeding, unattended to. When my wife found him, he was crying and there was a pool of blood on the floor. My wife stormed into the hospital administrator’s office and ripped him a new one. She threatened to shove a lawyer up his A**. You don’t mess with her…..
      Its a systematic killing machine. “Accidental” deaths from drug interactions, overdoses, starvation, dehydration, neglect….on and on it goes.

      Kill off the weak ones. The Nazi’s had nothing on us…

      Rob

      • MOMSRIGHT

        Rob, you make an excellent point about insurance companies looking out for their profits. Just wait until we have a government run health care system! My husband and I owned and opperated our own business and made very good money 750,000 to 1,000,000 a year gross! We have eight kids and work very hard to take care of their needs. We had private insurance that we paid a premium for and for the most part they never went with out proper medical treatment etc. However, over the last two years we saw our business decline and finally fall apart partially due to bad economy and crazy government policies from Washington. Anyhow, the point is we are now broke! We lost everything and have trouble just keeping the electricity on and food on the table! Long story I know but my point is that I had to apply for a government subsidised health care program that just covers my kids. One of my daughters has an abcess in her mouth that causes her a great deal of pain! The only way I can get her seen is to get up at 5:30am to be one of the first 5 people in line at the clinic which opens at 6:30am! Only the first 5 people get to be on the list to be seen that day! Imagine when the whole of America has to stand in line for health care!……. By the way, we have no intention of staying in this level of poverty or to become reliant on the government for our needs. We are entrapeuners and are working now to rebuild our business! This is America! People have an opportunity to be whatever they can imagine! As a side note I believe that every individual is a gift! Everyone no matter age, health, or mental state, contributes to others just by their presence! Even Terry Sheivo, as debra said:…………{ “as a Mom I am sure you know when you look at your child and your eyes meet…you know the connection. That`s the point..Terry was gone.. yes her body was there but her brain was so deprived of O2 that the Terry her parents knew was gone.The spirit had already left”}………..Again who are we to decide who is making a connection or not? To her parents Terry contributed something to them! She was not on total life support! She was only being fed! a kindness that most people would not deny to their dog! So medical advances have made it easier to feed someone in her condition…….Does that mean that we should deny the necessary thing to someone just because we couldn’t have done it 50 years ago!………By the way, I have friends who have taken care of their Anacelephic daughter {no brain} for 15 years now! She was not expected to live through babyhood! Should they stop feeding her because when they look into her eyes there is no connection! No! they love her and her presence in their family is a gift! Just like Terry!……I know Iam getting on a soap box here but it makes me crazy when I hear comments like those from Debra!……..We all need to stand up against this culture of death and start realizing just how demented these ideas are! They are evil couched in what seems like logic and compassion!

        • MOMSRIGHT

          PS, Whatever happened to the hypocratic oath? First do no harm…….?

        • Rob

          Momsright,
          Yeah, culture of death, thats exactly what SOME of these gouls are like.
          I am sorry for you’re current financial trouble, almost everyone has been affected to some degree, some more than others.
          I have no doubt, that with your additude, you will pull out.
          Your situation is just tempory.
          Short term, the economy will improve. Long term, I believe we will see high inflation, then the dollar will collapse.
          Rob

  • http://www.freewebs.com/lfdb/dbn2.htm Terry

    When my mom was in the hospital in 2007, the hospital doctors did a surgery on her when she had a urinary track infection. Mom was already compromised and then she developed MRSA and C-diff. Mom came into the hospital on her own, not on a stretcher or ambulance at the age of 87. Mom couldn’t breathe so they put her on a ventilator and ultimately on a trache and the doctor came in and said ” She’s had a good life its time for her to go” We told him that you don’t decide when she goes if she stays.

    Through the hospital’s negligence, mom got sepsis and after 2 months of suffering, she passed away.

    We could not get an attorney to prosecute the hospital or the doctors. It’s so sad that we as a society have come to this. This culture of death most be reversed or we as a people will be punished by the Almighty.

    • http://none Richard Pawley

      That time is soon arriving. I’m blessed (some would say cursed but I would rather know than not know) that after the dollar has been destroyed by inflation caused by Washington and the FED’s excessive printing of money, for every purpose under the sun, but not for you and me, well, it will take the rest of the pretend money which is now used in every country down with it. We may have a few years but get out of debt, only buy what you really need, can afford and consider learning about living like our pioneers did, with enough food to survive the winter (or several winters) on hand at all time. I believe that we are all going to see Exekiel 14:13-20 come about in the next few years and Rev. 6:5 too for that matter. It will not be the end of the world (but it may well seem like it) and I suspect that many will die. It’s the reason why I wrote another book that hopefully will be out this summer and it’s why those who have a personal relationship with the God of the Bible will be in a much better situation than those who do not.

      • Carolyn

        Richard, you too see the handwriting on the wall.
        What’s happening to our economy and reversed Laws is to bring all the people to their knees and all will be dependent on Govt. (Rome and I might say-Germany revisited). History is repeating itself and what we are seeing happen was planned and will force us into a One World Govt. that we know is coming because the Bible says so. The World Dictator isn’t far off and Satan is so in control of our system that most don’t see what’s happening.
        TV has done its part in keeping the masses dumbed down.
        Pray for our leaders that their hearts will be changed and for our people who have got caught in the world and forgotten their Maker.

    • CHARLES

      my mom was a canidate for rehab,from a stroke,so the drs.said.she was sent to b’ham,ala. diabetic ,on dialliasis 3 hrs,3days week. all the family worked,but was in to see her on weekends,mom’s sisters came in during the week. mom came home,after 9 weeks.hospital said, they could do no more for her.one of moms sisters came to see her during the week,and found moms bowell movements had dried on her.nurse station across from room, mom was parilized in right side,and could reach the buzzer.when mom was releaced ,she had hughed bed sores.she didn’t have,when she arrived.from nov.22 jan. 1998 mom was in b’ham she did not get proper care.I tried to get info as to why,she had to live this way,in b’ham.lawyers said hospital officials,said” the family WOULD NOT STAY WITH HER AND HELP OUT!! Mom died feb 26 1998. R.i.p mom, the lord knows who to punish

  • Catherine Waid

    When I went to nursing school, I was shocked by what I saw. If you HAVE to go (say you are hit by a bus), get family to stay with you and question EVERYTHING. Keep a journal yourself and make sure they KNOW you are watching.

    • Katherine Tomsich

      A good idea- but if you follow this advice you are branded ‘troublemaker’ and have unwanted treatment forced upon you. Plus, it is extremely difficult to be in the room 24 hours a day- esp when they kick you out for their ‘paperwork’ sessions twice a day. And when you catch them out- watch it! You are in for harassment. We actually had a medical doctor chant ‘fatal, fatal, fatal’ at us when we questioned the use of blood-thinning drugs on our son who had just been hemorrhaging blood from his lungs. These so-called professionals all need more education in dealing with patients . And when patients disagree, the docs need to lean humility and some way to work together rather than behaving as if they know it all.

    • Elle

      AMEN Katherine — nobody should go into a hospital alone but if you have no choice DO question everything you are told and before you accept treatment make sure you know what could happen.

      That’s especially true for Medicare patients. Once a person is on Medicare they become targets by our government – old people are pushed into an early grave by Medicare because Medicare refuses to pay for necessary treatments. I had breast cancer surgery at age 64 – when I turned 65 and went on Medicare I couldn’t afford to pay what Medicare didn’t when it came to follow-up tests – I went a year without any further treatment or tests – then I fought for a year to get help from the hospital who did give help ( so they advertised) to anyone in need over 62 – I finally got the help when I threatened to sue them if my cancer had metastisized – it had but I don’t have the money to sue them so they will have gotent away with another murder once I’m dead !

      • Rockmelon

        I’ve been on Medicare for 18 months and so far have found it to be exceptional. Although I do not suffer from any serious illnesses, my doctor does insist on lots of “tests” and I am on a handful of meds.

        Along with Medicare Parts A, B and D, I have a supplemental plan that pays for EVERYTHING. It’s an additional $137 a month but I have no co-pays, no deductibles and I see the doctors of my choice.

        However, I certainly sympathize with your situation and experience and I wish you luck and improved health!

        • Elle

          I’m glad that you are financially able to pay for the extra insurance. I like many others who live on our Social Security check and pay a mortgage heating bills etc and are struggling to keep their homes don’t have the option of buying supplemental insurance – there is no money to live on to begin with let alone buy extra insurance.

          That’s the problem many of us face and the only option we have is to hang on as long as we can and refuse to die early. I plan to do just that :-D

          Thank you very much for your good wishes — I am doing fairly well at the moment and have resolved to beat this cancer for the second time .

        • Carolyn

          Be careful about all the Meds as usually one will create a problem that you will need another. Your medicine will need medicine.
          So many of our problems are diet related and even my doctor admitted it and told me that I was one of his few patients who cared as others just want a pill.
          Alternative Medicine is better as they try to find the root of the problem whereas Conventional Medicine will give you a pill to try and help while the problem remains.
          I think it was Dr. William Campbell Douglass who gave a good example when he gave an example of an oil light coming on in your car indicating a problem–but if you disconnect the light, the flashing will stop but you still have the problem.
          Remember, Pharmaceuticals finance Med Schools so you can see how doctors are being taught. If you check out the medicine prescribed and see the effects it can have, you wonder if you’re trying to get better or kill yourself.
          Sorry to be so down on Conventional doctors as there are some that take their profession serious and their patients too. Some I believer are un—
          registerd quacks.

  • Nina

    It does seem like our government is more concerned with abortion and horrible partial birth abortion, to the point of funding abortion in other countries, as well as this new healthcare scheme forcing all doctors to do abortions, which most Americans do not believe will work better than what we have and most are pro-life. We are accused of being a ‘throw away’ society. It also includes human life. All of this is the ‘new socialist government’, the ‘change’. I do believe at some point we will make a turn, as there are far more Americans waking up and becoming enraged. From the ashes of this sundering and pillage of our country’s wealth and beliefs will rise true heroes and moral justification. I have to believe this as so many are standing up and saying, “Enough”.

  • Suzanne

    I have a friend who had the responsibility of taking care of her aged uncle for about 10 years until he finally passed. She found out early on that the doctors were all about prescribing way too many meds, and the most expensive ones at that. My friend went through the list with a new doctor she trusted, and was able to eliminate all but 2 of those drugs. She poured on the nutrition and gave that uncle a lot more comfort. At one point, she had a long conversation with that doctor, who told her plainly that all of the doctors in Florida have been sworn not to treat or prolong life… they can test all they want, but the patient has to shake them down for the findings.
    >> I won’t even tell you about my own experiences with the system. <<
    No matter how sympathetic that doctor sounds, bear in mind that they are ultimately all about the money.
    Yes, they are trying to kill us.
    The best way to deal with the current “health care” system is to stay the hell away from it.

    • Terry

      I agree with you whole-heartedly Suzanne with one slight addition to your wording …the current CONVENTIONAL ‘health care’ system. There are some very good holistic health practitioners out there…..they work with the body not against it, to help it heal itself. I found great relief through an acupuncturist 18 months ago when I was suffering chronic respiratory infections due to mold exposure. Of course, she also advised me to quit my job if there was no other way to get out of the mold infested room. I lost my sense of smell because of that room and I did quit. I am seeing an excellent chiropractor now for back problems and unbelieveably (after having no sense of smell for nearly 2 years) I am beginning to catch some smells particularly after his adjustments.
      BUT watch out, there is a plan by the UN to get the US to accept the CODEX ALIMENTARUS. It would prohibit the sale of vitamins, herbs, etc. It would destroy the health food stores and regulate your ability to buy these things. You would need to have an office visit and get a prescription for Vitamin C which could help you. So far they have been unable to do this. BUT if “national health care” goes through…I prefer to call it “national health control”…..they will get their way. It’s already being enforced in many European countries that have national health care!

      • http://PersonalLiberty Anne

        Hi Terry,

        A few years ago, I had an upper respiratory infection that lasted almost an entire year. I went to the doctor and was prescribed three different anibiotics one after another. They did nothing for me, except probably contributed because I found out later that antibiotics are a fungus. I won’t ever use them again. Anyhow, I used natural things like olive leaf extract and oil of oregano, both can be found in capsule form at health food store. I had also lost my sense of taste! It really scared me and was frustrating not to be able to enjoy the flavor of foods. I went on line and searched for help. I got it! There is a website, Sinus Wars – it’s a .com website. They have a number of remedies, homeopathic you put under your tongue. I phoned and talked to a real person. I selected Sinus Wars No. 2 and No. 7 according to their recommendation. When I got them in the mail, I read the instructions and upon taking them (or one – not sure which one actually cured me, because it’s been so long ago) I got my sense of smell and taste back within a half hour. Hallelujah! I was amazed and so happy to finally get relief. I take olive leaf extract on a daily basis as a safeguard and haven’t had any illness since. Anyhow, I just wanted to share.

        Regarding the topic, I think too often hospital/doctors are negligent and don’t treat patients as people. I think doctors lose their empathy and become hardened. Of course, there will always be good health care physicians who do actually care. But, unfortunately, I think the elderly get treated poorly just because of their age and all the things that go with it. It’s sad to watch treatment of loved ones – i know because i saw how my 89 year old dad was treated. Don’t want to go into details -too painful. He passed away the day he came home. He and my sister-in-laws dad died from complications of pneumonia they got in the hospital. I think getting pneumonia while staying in the hospital is way to common. There was recently a secret meeting held by several billionaires, all names you’d recognize, regarding population control. hmmmm, wonder how they’ll achieve that?

        • Terry

          Anne,
          Thank you so much…..I neglected to mention but when I lost my sense of smell, most food has tasted like cardboard. I haven’t enjoyed get togethers like Thanksgiving, Christmas, etc. while everyone else was raving about the food I couldn’t taste and still don’t. I’ll definitely check that web site out and give those homeopathic remedies a try. Bless you for being kind enough to share.

    • Carolyn

      Suzanne, you are a very smart girl. Time will show that you live longer if you stay away from doctors.
      They can fix broken bones, take out tonsils, etc. but when it comes to internal combustion– they don’t know zip. Left to them and their advice, you will become a human guines pig.

  • Les Wood

    Men on my dads side of the family have had unusally long lives. My grandfather lived to be almost 100. My dads two brothers lived to age 86 and 93. A third brother died young in a logging accident. Great Grandfathers also reached well past 90 years of age.

    When my dad was admitted to the Veteran’s Hospital in Spokane, Washington, he just turned 72. I asked the “government” doctor what the prognosis was and he answered, that my dad was getting up there in age and basically that it was a natural thing to die of old age.

    I angrily confronted the doctor and told him that men in my family live to much older ages, and that there must be a medical problem that can be corrected. He shook his head and said, that he would look into it, but it didn’t look very hopeful.

    I later heard that they operated on Dad’s prostrate and corrected a blockage of some sort. My dad did recover, and lived into his 80′s.

    I believe that “government” hospitals are quickest to write off older veteran’s too quickly in the quest to hold down government costs.

    This is exactly the kind of medical care that everybody will soon get if we are forced to accept universal health care. This will conveniently help balance the deficit in our social security by causing all elderly people to suddenly get sicker in the hospital and die.

    Later on, it may be mandatory or at least “Patriotic” for 80 year olds to simply check themselves into the nearest “government dispensary” to be euthanized, and all of this will be “spinned” to be for the “common good” of the people.

    You may laugh, but back in the late 1960′s, I refused to believe that our government would ever condone the murder of the unborn child by the “choice of the mother”!!

    Beware people! While population control of Europe and the America’s have been in full swing, partly through the legalization of murdering the innocent, there is an Islamic plan to over power the “West” through a vast population explosion of Islamic births of almost 8 to 1.

    • Elle

      You have got that right Les ! I only hope that more people become aware of what the government is up to and we join together in a long awaited Revolution that should have happened before even George Bush got in – we definitely have to revolt now before it’s too late. . We need to get our lives under our control now – no matter what – with enough people banding together as one force we could put an end to this socialist regime !.

      • Carolyn

        Elle
        You are right but we do have one big problem– the Govt is federalizing everything even the Police so between that and Obama’s private military and people so divided– it will a tough road.
        I can’t remember the Pres. or who it was that said “We will die standing on our feet rather then on our knees.”
        I still support the saying, “Better dead then Red.”

  • Betty Read

    Forsooth, most doctors are politically conservative and yet they are the ones committing the acts discussed in the comments above. So, just guess what their main concern is – not the rising costs for the patients – but bigger fees for themselves and continued protection for themselves against malpractice litigation.

  • James

    While I have not the least interest in government involvement in my health care, so of the junk in this post could not be passed up. This sort of thing bothers me most because this kind of fact-free fear-mongering is exactly what our government is doing to get its way with all sorts of things.
    First, please provide some clarification of these items mentioned (and I should mention that I have in the past asked for the evidence behind claims on this site, and have yet to receive even one response):
    1. “Mass inoculation kill en masse.” Could you define “kill en masse?” How many people do you personally know who have died from a vaccine? Perhaps you would post a number, with evidence, as to the percentage of people who die from vaccines. I know that they happen, but I think that “en masse” is hysterical language, if I am being polite, and not likely a tem that you would commonly use for other events of similar probability. And you conveniently ignore the obvious, in that, do you really think the world would be better off, in terms of health, without vaccines? Smallpox, uncontrolled, the Spanish flu of 1918, over 20 million people killed, worldwide, etc? Show me the person who developed a “natural immunity” to smallpox, or diphtheria, or AIDS, for that matter?
    2. Autism because of thimerosol vaccines? Please produce your evidence.
    3. AIDS epidemic associated with the use of SIV? The “use of”? Do you not know that SIV is a vius that exists in most wild simians, and that the general conclusion about the origin of AIDS was that SIV “jumped” from simians, who are immune to it, to humans, who are not? How was this “used”, and for what? Are you claiming that some nefarious person took SIV from simians and went around “using” it for some purpose? I have no idea what a statement worded like this could be talking about, but would like to know.
    4. Explain the link that is claimed here. The reasoning in the French study was equivalent to the one that noted that 98% of all the people who died in airline crashes in the past year had eaten pickles in the previous year, therefore if you want to reduce your chances of dying in an air crash, don’t eat pickles. Also know as a post hoc fallacy, and the same line of “reasoning” that led to the early claims that aluminum caused Alzheimer’s.
    5. Regarding the anthrax vaccine, I generally agree with this, except that we have the hindsight to say “unnecessary,” those trying to prepare at the time did not.
    6. The real problem with the new STD vaccine is that we have said, as a society, we are no longer going to try and get people to behave responsibly. This is a leadership failure, at all levels, including parents. But it is not a vaccine against immoral behavior, it is a vaccine against a common result of immoral behavior.
    7. Regarding the bird flu hype, I agree completely, but I will also repeat myself and say that this hype is no different than saying inoculations kill “en masse.” Both gross overreactions, in my view.
    8. The analogy to Soylent Green is an interesting one, although I admit that it has been awhile since I have seen it. One possible difference between the movie and our time is that here a majority of the voting citizens of our great country seem to want this level of government involvement. Colin Powell recently mentioned this during the discussion whether he or Rush LImbaugh better represented the Republican Party. Because so many think this way, we will become western Europe before we know it. Sad.

    • debra

      Thank you James for your very well thought out response. I am an RN…..I had no idea people were so afraid of us!!

      • sandra

        Debra, do not judge everyone by what James says. You do know you are on the front line in hospitals,doing as the doctor orders and then needing to justify to patient and family.

        I am one of those trouble family members, but it is not you I am angry with but with the doctor. It is just that if I just let you do anything you are ordered to without question, we become nothing but cattle in the auction pen. If I disagree with the treatment ordered first I must stop you from completing your tast and then I can try to get ahold of the doctors office.

        For private reasons I had the need for all the transcripts from my back surgury and the additional 3 hospitalizations following my 1st release. Things that were disturbing (I do understand the terms used in hospital transcripts) was the fact that after a reaction to a new medication, the nurses tried unsucessfully all that day to reach my doctor for orders, to the kind mothering nurse who cared for me when I needed to be restrained (thank you) and then there was the doctors assistance who came in just as I was leaving intesive care (drug indused) and asked me if I wanted to go home….who says No. This is what lead to my addithional hospilizations within days of my release ..stupid women….all this while I had one of the best back surgeons in the area….your doctor may be great but he or her are not the ones coming into see you every day and they are not the ones that care for you when you are released far far too soon

        • James

          Sandra,

          Don’t ever let anyone, in medicine or anywhere else, push you into a decision you are not comfortable with. There are some great doctors out there (I work with some) and like every other profession on earth, there are some that should find something else to do (and I know some of those also, some I wouldn’t send my dog to).
          People sometimes expect too much from their doctors and other medical people, seeming to forget that they are human, and thus subject to error, but sometimes people don’t expect enough, and accept whatever they are told without question, and continue going to the same doctor that previously messed them up. It is one thing if the doctor admits the problem, and bends every reasonable effort to fix it, but that attitude is unfortunately uncommon. Too many operate normally in CYA mode, some of it driven by litigation risk, but some driven by a lack of sufficient dedication
          to their patients. The lack of coverage that you described is without excuse.

      • SSG Prasuhn

        We’re not afraid of you so much as a person or an RN, LPN, etc., but for what you have the ‘capabilities’ to do to US who don’t know that this drug can do this — and be nearly impossible to trace. It (somewhat) falls under the guise of ‘Fear of The Unknown’. You ‘know’ but WE don’t. Then too, it’s (nearly) equivalent to flying…the passengers (and flight attendants) are putting their lives in the hands of the pilot/co-pilot (e.g., patients putting their lives in the hands of doctors and nurses). How do WE know YOU know what you’re doing?? Get the picure??
        ‘Nuff Said’,

      • Paul Trood

        Debra, I don’t know if you can help me but I would like to ask. My beautiful Jenny passed away on the 24th June. She had adenocarcinoma in the right lung and had a small brain tumor removed in December this year. Lung cancer diagnosed in November 08.
        Jenny had been doing quite well until around the 10th of June where her pain started to increase and as her oncologist was away her GP put her into a palliative care ward for pain management. Jenny was never the same, they got on top of her pain but her overall health declined quickly. One day one of the nurses told me that they had given her too much medication (oxymorphone) whilst tying to fine tune her doses. The next day Jenny was in a form of delirium. This lasted 3 days and she never recovered from it passing away 5 days after such a downwards spiral. The doctor told me she passed away from Terminal Delirium. I had never heard of this and it had never been mentioned to me. After talking to other doctor’s I am not 100% convinced that I actually know what took Jenny so fast and have some concerns about the too much medication statement. Do you have any knowledge of Terminal Delirium.? I am in a bad place, please help me if you can.
        Paul.

        • debra

          Dear Paul..I am so sorry for your pain. I am going to try to explain as best I can. As you know adenocarcinoma is very aggressive and terminal in most cases. It starts in a large organ like the lungs and via large vessel blood supply travels to other organs like the brain,liver. Now..when her pain got worse and was admitted..the nurses/drs. give what they call loading doses to get the pain under control..and Paul it sounds like she was in the dying process..then they give maintence meds. It is tricky sometimes because of pts. weight and their on perception level. Now the delirium-part. As a pt. is dying..the bodily functions slow and shut down. The pt. goes into a coma like state in order to deal with the pain and fear..That is Gods way of helping us thru the dying process. It upsets the loved ones witnessing this. But remember Paul your Jenny did not need to be awake to die. I hope she went as painless as possible and had a nice easy trip to the other side. I wish I could talk with you. You now have a process to go thru also and it will be hard. But do know you helped her to be comfortable in her last days. Seek out a grief support group and if you can silp me a ## I will call.Debra

        • Paul Trood

          Thank you very much for your reply Debra. I will take your advice. I would love to speak with you but I live in Australia. If you give me your number I will call you. This is my email add. bempti29@bigpond.net.au

          Paul x

    • sandra dunakin

      I can post to one of your questions. Autism caused by vaccines. girls 1 in 150, boys 1 in 90. These numbers were given out by “experts” who were harrassing the mom and family doctor who were expressing some concerns. I am trying to remember the program so I can find out who the guest were and will post on this site as soon as I can. You can say all you want to intimidate those who have posted here, but this subject is not being talked about (Hush, hush) from our goverment.
      No one will actually listen to you who have come to realize that they are not really the problem, but we are trying to be part of the solution.
      You go ahead and just beleive anything your party tells you, after all they won the election.
      The rest of us will read these comments, dicide which ones we decide to agree with and dismiss the rest.for now freedom of speech is still allowed.

      • Rockmelon

        I don’t believe that vaccines have been found to be a definitive cause of autism.

        Don’t overrule the environment! Since the introduction of oil derivative products and plastics into our daily lives beginning in the 40′s, we are literally surrounded by a myriad of chemicals. Not only do these newly introduced carcinogens interact with us, they interact with each other.

        First and second generations are often free of obvious changes to chromosomes until they mutate and take on a life of their own.

        The causes of autism and other anomalies could come from any one of millions of engineered processesl.

        • SSG Prasuhn

          What are drugs if not a ‘form’ of vaccines?? All of which are produced by the ‘mixing’ of chemicals (mostly) and then ‘injected’, ‘ingested’ into our bodies which aren’t made for ‘outside’ chemicals to begin with.

          What we’re experiencing is the ‘truth’ to DOW Chemical’s ‘slogan’ of years past of….’Better Living Through Chemistry’. Oh, really!?!? NOT!!!

          ‘Nuff Said’,

        • Rockmelon

          Yes. Drugs could be responsible as well as vaccines.

          What I was saying is that vaccines have not been nailed as the offending substance. Much has been linked to vaccines but scientific evaluations have not conclusively proven that vaccines cause autism.

          In addition to “drugs” there are millions of other engineered products that should not be ignored until we have learned the precise cause of autism. I have no doubts that they will find the cause. It’s only a matter of time.

      • James

        Sandra,
        You should be more careful about what you read, and at least have the courtesy to not make claims about people you don’t even know. And furthermore, produce your own evidence before you say that what others are saying is wrong. I was only requesting clarification of definitions, and the evidence to back up what was bring claimed. The only true challenge I made was regarding the “use of SIV” in the development of AIDS, which I believe is nonsense, unless the original poster was very sloppy with their choice of words. But as with all the rest, show me the evidence.
        And before you repeat to me about a goverment conspiracy, that too is only an assertion. It is not that I am saying it does not or is not happening. The government covers up all kinds of things, and another poster as correctly identified the conflict of interest that occurs when the government does get involved. But if you are saying that the absence of evidence is itself evidence of a cover-up, I am sorry, but that is circular reasoning, and to me, an assertion that cannot be demonstrated isn’t worth making the first place.
        If you will read the original post, the claim was that autism was caused by mercury
        (thimerosol) vaccines, not vaccines generally, and that it what I was responding to. There exists reasonably clear evidence that some children do develop autism as a
        reaction to vaccines, but the link to thimerosol has not yet been established. If you can demonstrate otherwise, please do so. If asking for evidence to back up your assertions counts as intimidation, then I actually feel sorry for you. It must be real tough living in this world. Exactly what part of the solution are you trying to become? How many public hearings onthe subject have you attended, or how many letters have you written to your elected officials in Washington? I do those things, because I think they matter, and even if they don’t, I will still try.
        And regarding your not only inaccurate but perjorative comment about my party winning the election, you should find some other website if what you want to do with people with whom you disagree is call them names.
        In the first place, I am a non-party voter. I vote issues and character, not parties. And given that I am a conservative, socially, fiscally and politically, there are few Democrats anywhere in this country that I could vote for, and if my choice at the last national election was to vote for Obama or go to jail, I would have taken jail without hesitation. Sadly, there are any number of Republicans that I wouldn’t vote for either, because they are indistinguishable from Democrats or other liberals. My state of Ohio is heading down the tubes as fast as possible. My particular representatives
        are George Voinovich, Sherrod Brown, and Marcia Fudge. It could be worse (I could be living in California), but it is pretty bad. The current federal government seems bent on destroying our country as fast as possible, and if more people don’t start demanding something different, they will succeed.

        • Carolyn

          James you are right and to be brief– the govt. is doing something: they are labeling all we sensible people as extremist and terrorist.
          Good has become evil and evil good. Talk about nutsville; did they do lobotomies on the elected before they could take their position? If not, they are escapees from an institution.

  • Charles Ivie

    This is one of the “unintended” side effects of socialism in general and socialized medicine in particular. If the government is responsible for any aspect of health care they encur a legetimate fiduciary responsibility for the citizenry at large. This responsibility is best recognized as the establishment of citizens becomming wards of the state, or in other words, state property. When this happens the citizens exist for the benefit of the state and not the other way around.

  • http://yahoo deborah

    obama’s just another hilter,stalin or any other past reigme dictator but of a horse of a different color and i knew he had hidden agendas all along but his zombie cult freaks there the ones that have never read a book or learned about history while in school,hmm must of missed them classes , yeah or they would have seen the transparency while he was campainging

    • SSG Prasuhn

      Well, you have to admit ‘he’ (the ‘bestowed’ one — Yeah, right!) ‘has’ said that he’s all for ‘transparancy’ in government. The only problem is, there are many of US who can ‘see’ the transparancy — WE ‘see right through him and his ‘agendas’ — whereby his ‘constituents’ can’t seem to ‘see’ the ‘transparancy’. Blinded by the light, maybe??

      Those who have no clue or haven’t yet figured it out, NEED to get a ‘clue’ that Whatever Government Touches, Government Screws Up! And then charges US (via more and more taxes) to ‘help’ pay for ‘THEIR’ mistakes. HELLO!?!?

      ‘Nuff Said’,

  • http://DNA Buddy

    You guys must be paranoid – - but that doesn’t necessarily mean you’re mistaken. If all this is true, how can this happen? Is anyone in charge or is the (malignant) system running itself?

    Maybe this is nature telling us that 6 billion people are simply too many?

    • Terry

      Buddy, evidently you don’t diversify your reading material enough. There was a news story recently of how the British government is going to be sending people from their Dept. of Health into peoples homes and give them info on what foods, etc. are healthy. Then they are going to return to inspect the pantries and refrigerators of private homes to see if any “offending foods” are being purchased. First they will warn, then they will fine, and at some point they will punish! All because they have NATIONAL HEALTH CARE! They turned their rights over to the government who foots the bills. AND GUESS WHAT? Justice Ginsburg of the Supreme Court in the US thinks WE SHOULD put this into practice when we pass national health care!!! STILL WANT national health care? I DON’T!!! Give me my herbs and vitamins!!!

      • http://DNA Buddy

        Terry:

        Well, I am becoming more paranoid – - – and evidently with good reason.

        It just seems that busybodies have too much time on their hands. What this country needs is a good depression and it appears that’s what’s happening as these very “smart” people are trying their subjective best to screw things up.

      • debra

        Terry..you are so right!! There are discussions about having to pay more for health care if you are a smoker,over-weight,so on and on….But there is no mention about druggies, or people who are involved in deviant sexual behaviors like homosexuals. 97% of HIV infections are the result of behavior like IV drug use and multiple sex partners. Why do they get a free pass??

        • SSG Prasuhn

          Debra — ‘They’ get a ‘free pass’ because ‘they’ are the minority and in this world of today it’s a well-known fact (???) that ‘Minority Rules’. Didn’t you know that???

          ‘Nuff Said’,

          P.S. I’m NOT a believer in that. I still hold to ‘MAJORTY RULES!!’

      • Carolyn

        Funny how the whole wretched bunch swore to uphold the Constitution and not a one seems to know what it says.
        No where does it tell them to micro-manage people’s personal lives and be their nanny.
        They aren’t protecting our borders, our lives or our property
        ; maybe they should go home as they are useless but it’s easy money for them to live off the taxpayer as a parasite. And then some of the Judges go by Int’l. Law; there’s no end to the insanity.

  • Eric Bischoff

    When it comes to health most Americans are full of crap. They eat the worst, most processed food in the world, take no responsibility for taking care of themselves, trusting that these, god like, know it all doctors will take care of them. These doctors who don’t even study nutrition. These doctors who are trained to distrust ancient knowledge and label it as hocus pocus when in reality their allopathic medicine is the real scam. Yes they are great at surgery but they know nothing about preventative health and how to be healthy.

    You are right to be afraid of the government running Universal healthcare but you should be more afraid of the current system where the drug/chemical cartels are running the FDA and the EPA. You have no idea of how you are being manipulated for profits and greed. They are all in bed with each other and they will bankrupt us and themselves just like the bankers have screwed us and themselves.

    The cancer, heart disease and diabetes industry is a huge business and they have no intention of telling you the truth about how to prevent it. It’s just too big and too profitable.

    And that’s why the cheapest alternative healhcare is not supported or reimbursed by insurance companies. That’s why the heavy hand of Govt raids alternative healthcare clinics at gun point and the people who have money go to other countries for these treatments.

    This headline is deceiving. What we should really question is why 80% of people’s life savings are sucked out from them in the last few years or months of their life by the disease industry with little or no benefit at all to the patient.

    And I realize that the religious zealots in this world will take offense with this but we need to get real. This planet cannot sustain another doubling of the population and the third world trying to achieve this over the top WalMart madness consumerism. This planet is cracking. We need to have less children and we won’t be able to afford to keep people alive no matter what. Wake up people we are broke.

    So tell me why after a life of stupidity and moronic behavior we should spend ungodly amounts of money to give you a few extra months of life, and you better have a good reason.

    • sandra

      And you are going to be the one to decide who’s been naughty and who’s been nice or do we just go quietly at a certain age and….are you going to go willingly when you REACH THAT AGE.

      please reply….

      • Eric Bischoff

        I think you missed my point. The current system is wrong and it is bankrupting us. Many people don’t have/cannot afford insurance and the ones that have insurance are misusing it and the doctors/hospitals and insurance companies are letting that happen because they are all in business/bed together.

        There are many ways to be healthy and get healthy and the better ones are usually the cheaper ones not currently supported or allowed or reimbursed. Don’t you think that’s a problem? Whys isn’t that even part of the current discussion?

        I am not suggesting that someone stands there and decides who lives or who dies. I am merely saying that we need to have an honest discussion about it because like it or not we cannot maintain our current system. It is stupid and not sustainable and we are broke.

        As far as going willingly. Yes the more I know about our collective stupidity the more I would want to quickly leave this place. And I am one of those who strongly supports my right to do when I choose to.

        Americans are stuck in a mentality of maintaining life at all costs. Maybe that’s flawed thinking. Some economists are now talking about peak capitalism. Realizing that capitalism and it’s needed growth is not sustainable and we may already have reached the point of no return.

        We have some serious souls searching to do and we need to change quickly. And I don’t mean change-light like many of you seem to be happy to be getting from Obama. We need revolutionary changes. We need to change our thinking, our lifestyles, our beliefs and our effect on this planet. I don’t think we have much time left.

    • Elle

      Hey Eric –

      The number of people who have led GOOD lives far outweigh those who didn’t. But who has the right to judge any person because of they way they chose to live their lives anyway ? You ?

      If someone ate poorly or didn’t keep a good eye on their health in their younger year but worked hard and paid their taxes, caused no harm to anyone should they be denied good health care when they get older ?? – NO you idiot — NO !

      Another thing – NO ONE has the right to deny ANYONE access to good health care — ho0wever, the United States is full of corrupt “leaders” and they have destroyed health care as well as our financial system – open your eyes Eric — the government will attempt to kill you off to once you reach the age of 65 and Medicare is your “choice ??} of insurance – good luck to you then.

      • Eric Bischoff

        Ignorance is not a good defense for anything and don’t call me an idiot, you know nothing about me.

        My eyes have been open for most of my life. I have always been a rebel. My wife and I do not use/support the current medical system. Even though we have health coverage through our job we choose to pay out of our own pocket for cheaper alternative heath care. We do not live on overly processed foods and knowing that this could be the biggest contribution to affecting the planet one could do (look it up), we stopped eating red meat 35 years ago.

        You are not reading everything. Something offended you and you got stuck on just that.

        I do believe that if someone behaved stupidly all their life whether through ignorance or some other reason, they have no right to demand anything. We as a society have the right to make decisions as a collective, especially once we provide universal coverage (for all) on what kinds and how much therapy we are willing to and can afford to provide.

        Everyone must have basic coverage, that ‘s the first thing we must fix, but it may not include an organ transplant at an advanced age or massive amounts of surgery and treatment for cancer when many know full well that you will only get a few more months or a couple of years.

        Hey this America and no one will stop you from buying additional insurance if that’s how you want to spend your money.

        What I’d really like to see is that we release information and support the use of more natural therapies and lifestyle changes. The current system likes to hide all statistics about people who were labeled too far advanced uncureable, who found alternatives, got well and never looked back.

        You should be more upset about our subsidizing the fast food industry like corn growing/corn syrup that is largely responsible for many of our diseases today.

        We need to connect the dots. The health care discussion cannot go on without involving all of the pieces, chemical farming versus organic and local farming; polution and the environment; food production and distribution; , drugs versus natural non toxic alternatives; allopathic versus homeopathic or herbs; stress and meditation and breathing and on and on..

        I think we need to apply the following filters to any and all decisions today. Is it healthy, sustainable, ecological.

      • debra

        Elle..i don`t think Eric was making judgements…but our government is discussing this. in particular people who are over-weight or smoked. They are suggesting the 2 groups would pay more. But as we all know there are so many other behaviors that should be included if they pick on fat smokers!!

    • Carolyn

      Eric, excuse me–who are you to say someone had better have a good reason? Have you now taken the position of God? If so get over yourself.
      Population control has been under way for some time, they just can’t kill people off fast enough and even our food isn’t safe.What sane Govt. would let its enemy feed its people (CHINA). And for more money, corn syrup is being put in almost everything and it by passes the Pancreas causing Diabetes.
      My initial response was to remind you, God has it all under control about the population, He needs no help from us.You forget too the thousands of people who die everyday from accidents- cars, planes, hurricanes, tornados, etc.
      But if it makes you feel better, the joke cars coming out (matchbox size-pushed by the EPA) will increase deaths as they are unsafe and that has been tested and proven. So now maybe you can sleep better now knowing more planned deaths are on the way.

  • charles

    I think your comments are well writen and i agree with your points. I personally know off 2 people, up in years, (70+), go to the hospital for an simple proceedure, within 2 months they were gone because of infection that could have been prevented by simple care you do at home. I have not seen any proof of the “vaccination hype” either

  • http://aol.com teresa vida

    Palliative health care for people whose condition is helpless, depending on numorous opinions by physicians who REALLY follow the Hyppocratic Oath, and go by the Word of God, is sufficient for the right way to be cared for, and to die. It’s that simple. If one doesn’t know what “palliative” means, then get a dictionary. God Bless all who are suffering through their dying or who are survivors…

    • sandra

      Teresa, if you use words you don’t think people know the meaning of and then go tell them to look it up as though they’re stupid is insulting and degrading. I was enjoying your post up to the time you felt it necessary to be insulting…

      May God Bless you also…

      • debra

        Sandra you go girl!!! I am enjoying these spirited discussion.. Palliative care is comfort care after being deemed terminal by a team of dr. rn social work and the pt. and family. No one should have to suffer..and palliative care helps the pt. and (family) to have a more peaceful trip.

        • sandra

          Thanks Debra
          I already knew what Palliative care was, I was just posting for all the others that may not speek up for themselves. But, I do appriciate you posting the meaning for all of them.

          And you go girl!!!

      • http://aol.com teresa vida

        Sandra
        Thanks for pointing that out to me – you’re right! And I am sorry.

        • sandra

          Teresa’

          Thanks for responding. I felt I was being too harsh on your post, as you were really trying to get a point across. Just don’t let your passion make you snipent…my kids word…for when I get testy. Please continue trying to educate people to live better lives, waking each day and asking “what can I do today to make the world better for my fellow man” and you will live a blessed life.
          And a long life.

  • Cindy V

    I need to speak up for doctors and nurses of which I am one! People in America are lazy, fat, and greedy.

    The core measure of treatment that almost all doctors initially prescribe is to not eat processed foods, or to not eat foods high in fat and low in nutrition, eat moderate portions or small portions more frequently, drink plenty of water (not coffee, tea, sugar laden juices, alcohol, or colas) exercise at least three times a week for at least 20 minutes, a brisk walk is suffice. I have seen very few patients make even the minimal attempt at their doctors recommendations. Most people want a quick fix, a pill or a surgery to make everything go away. If they don’t get the response they want they keep looking for a doctor that will give them what they want.

    Being in the medical profession myself, I see and hear evidence of this every day I work. People want to blame everyone else for their misery, few take responsibility for their own actions.

    I see people who are “diabetic” and once they are on a controlled diet in the hospital, no alcohol, no drugs, no cola, their diabetes no longer needs treatment this is within two days. So you can bash the medical system or take care of your selves the way your recommended to do, OR NOT. Doctors treat your symptoms before you kill YOURSELF! They give you medication to lower your blood pressure because you smoke incessantly and eat a diet high in fat, they put you on medication because you come in crying about symptoms that lead to the discoveries of heart disease, diabetes, lung disease. If a doctor tells you eat right, drink plenty fluids, get some exercise, you leave grumbling to everyone about the price you paid for “nothing”, when that doctor gave you the best advice dollar for dollar he could give you. You think nothing of paying $6 a pack for cigarettes, or $5 for a serving of alcohol, or $10 a pop for a quick lunch at a fast food chain. But you expect a doctor to cure you in spite of your own concern for your own health for nothing.

    Most doctors and nurses for that matter take their oath seriously and do their best to serve the public regardless of the lack of commitment patients have for their own health. Would you prefer a doctor to refuse to treat you because you don’t follow his instruction, I have known a couple for that and I admire them. It’s a waste of time for all of us.

    The system is not perfect, I’ll be the first to admit it. I work my ass off taking care of demanding, unthankful people every shift. I do that without regard for their race, or their profession. A sick person is just that, I see what you do to yourselves and I only lament over what it must feel like to know when your dying that if only you had followed the basic principles in health care I mentioned you wouldn’t be this sick!

    You cry about socialized medicine, I don’t even have health insurance! The insurance companies make it unaffordable for me and my family. I personally can’t get private insurance period! Even though I take care of myself but have a few underlying conditions that never get in my way, I don’t seek medical treatment for them. I welcome a system where I could have medical coverage at an affordable price. It’s the middle man that is making it so impossible for me. A doctor and hospital have rates so high because the insurance companies will only pay a tiny portion of the actual cost to the facility. The rest of us have to pick up the tab and make up the losses.

    • sandra

      Cindy, you speek the harsh truth..

      I am married to a man who knows what he is supposed to do, but no..that’s too complicaed, take another pill….

      I am also sorry you have no medical insurance..I am blessed to have good medical insurance

      There has been occasion where I saw my insurance paid for something they should not have…yes…I called them, they said I was covered and they would pay the bill or I would have to.

      yes, the system is not perfect, but please do not put the ( goverment ) in charge of my life and death decisions…they will put people over a certain age in danger and they will say it’s for the good of the children, “for the good of the childred” is a term too often used when our goverment wants to cut something…they were going to raise the cigerette cost and give it to the children ….that was the tactic they used when they were trying to get the bill passed, but all of a sudden, now it needs to go in the general fund to balance the budget.

      I’m sorry, this was the tactic used by Obama, and we know the changes he has been making….do we really want the goverment to handle our heatlh care..I think not….

      • http://www.travelingbyrv.blogspot.com Stevo

        Educate me, please. I can find nothing in Obama’s health care proposal that puts the government ‘in charge of’ my health care. What specific language am I missing?

        • Janet Drennan

          The morons of the nation cannot understand that if they have Medicare or Medicaid, they have a ‘government’ run health care program. Who the hell do they think is running these programs. It’s all over the literature they send out. Are ppl blind or just plain stupid?? If it wasn’t for these ‘govt run health care programs’ most ppl would be out on the street since, unlike Cuba, a poor country with free health care for all (because it’s run by the govt…DUH!!!) the average person could not afford the astronomical cost of healthcare. Look at you D___ bill next time and see what you’re charged just for an injection: cost of med, syringe, drawing up med, person who gives shot, environmental cost of disposing of syringe, air expelled from syringe, alcohol swab, bandaid (you didn;t get), MD charge for ordering it, pen to write order, energy to put pen to paper, and on and on and on. What a joke. Be admitted to the hosp. & see how many MDs you have..talk about a rip-off: YOUR MD can’t admit (most likely) has to be a “Hospitalist MD” one of those that knows absolutely NOTHING about your condition but comes around everyday so he can charge you for a visit, your MD, a Pathologist for your lab work, a radiologist for your (usually non-existent) x-rays, a pulmonologist who may or may not manage to get around to listen to you breath sounds – as tho your own MD can’t do this. Heaven forbid you go have a toe nail removed: surgery charge, nurses, set-ups, environmental charges, labs, anesthesiologist, pathologist (again), pulmonologist (again), recovery & all those add-ons, radiologist, surgeon & assistant surgeon (never mind that you never saw him), nurse anesthetist (because surely you know the MD doesn’t stay with you the whole time), cremation of the toenails, I could go on but you get the drift..so your bill is in the hundreds of thousands..no wonder!! Forget pain meds,, the pharmacy forgot to put them into the computer or you were d/c’ed before they got around to it. OR you got them but they were so beyond the experiration date they were ineffective or you got the addict who gave you saline and took your narcotics (happens so much more often than you expect).

  • Bill

    My mother kept complaining of a metallic kind of taste in her mouth and could not figure out what it was. My brother took her to the doctor to get checked out just to be on the safe side. The doctor was not there, so my brother took her to the emergency room so she could be seen by the attending physician. The doctor admitted her for observation and to run some tests on her. I don’t think the doctor even bothered to look at her medical records to see what medications she was on. If he would have, he would have known that my mother was already taking blood thinners prescribed by her doctor. This doctor ordered an injection of some sort of blood thinner, I don’t know the name of. Around 10 PM my mother told my brother to just go on home because she felt fine and saw no need for him to stay. Around midnight my mother went to the bathroom assisted by a nurse or an orderly i guess. They helped my mother back to her bed, and as soon as she sat down she said she had a really bad head ache all of a sudden. When they laid her down in her bed she immediately went unconsious and three hours and fifteen minutes later they pronounced her dead at 3:15 AM. Her death was no mistake. She was murdered by a doctor. My mother was 13 days shy of her 81st birthday. I sincerely believe her death was on purpose.

  • Rockmelon

    We do not need socialized medicine! What we need is AFFORDABLE HEALTHCARE. Why would a 36 hour hospital stay for laprocopic gall bladder removal cost $35,000? That’s what my husband paid for this procedure.

    Other than that, I’m all for voluntary euthansia of healthy seniors such as myself. We have lived full lives and after 70, we are just taking up space and depriving younger retirees of Social Security.

    • debra

      OK Rocky…I dont know about you but the closer I get to 70 the younger I feel and the longer I want to live! Hell Im looking forward to it!!!Just think we will be retired,we can stay up as late as we want,dont have to get dressed if we dont want to. Shoot we will be free to do what ever we want to do…at 70!!

    • sandra

      Okay Rocky:

      You can NOT be close to 70 yrs old !!

      I am close to 70 years old and plan to be around for a long time, I will enjoy my granddaughter, plants flowers in my garden, enjoy the company of my many friends, and finish my college degree.

      I am far too young to be ready to ( make room for the younger generation on Social Security). I am getting really ticked off when I keep hearing people say I need to make room for the younger anything……………..

      I paid my dues to the younger generation…..school taxes included…..Medicaid for the poor younger generation……Increased taxes for everything….but nothing for the elderly, we’re just supposed to go quietly.

      Get over it..I’m working toward my degree in Psychology…..Child Psychology…so I can make life better for the younger generation….maybe I will be caring for one of your children some day…and you will be happy that I am still alive…

      Near 70 and not ready to quit yet………too much to do…….too much

      • Rockmelon

        Great! So with that kind of stamina, how about standing up and taking the place of one of the over 4000 dead or over 30,000 wounded young men of the Iraqi war. Most of those have sacrificed life and limb so that seniors can continue to enjoy the lives that they “earned.”

        FYI, I am very close to 70, have three wonderful children (41 thru 49) and four grandkids (19 thru 14)who are among the finest kids on the planet. I’ve been retired for five years and I get up when I want and am very active in a grassroots movement that I am passionate about.

        Like Kenny Rogers sings, “You gotta know when to hold em and know when to foldem.”

        • sandra

          Rocky, Rocky….

          Speak not that which you are unaware of. I did serve, proudly for 8 yrs in the United States Marines….

          I also lost brothers in that war, they never got to claim thier social security or reach the age of 65. So, my point is, I have earned my right to a happy old age just as my grandmother who lived to be 88.

          Now, it seems everyone is concerned with the goverment having to take care of our elderly. What ever happened to the children taking care of thier aging parents. After all, the parents took care of the kids for at least 18 years and if the children in turn need to care for the parent for 10 years, WHATS THE PROBLEM. If children took active responsibility for thier parents, driving them where they need to go, keeping track of med’s thier taking, maybe even moving Mom or Dad into the house with them.

          I get really tired of wealthy children “because mom and dad paid for thier education 1,0000′s of $, complaining about the expense of good nursing homes (the true drudge of society)…do they not have room in this 2000 sq ft house to put this parent. I have had friends who live in much smaller cape cod houses who gave up the master for thier parents and moved into another room.

          When we decide as a society to once again take responsibility for our aging parents we will regain our self respect and

          STOP THIS STUPID CONVERSATION ABOUT KILLING OFF THE ELDERLY.

        • sandra

          Oh Rocky..

          I forgot one thing……YOU FOLD THEM IF YOU WISH>>>> I’m too busy playing the hand that Jesus Christ handed me<<<<<

        • Rockmelon

          To Sandra:

          If you would kindly check my original message, I clearly said “voluntary” euthanasia. I was not inferring that a wagon was going to pull up to your house and drag you out kicking and screaming! For god’s sake, calm down or you won’t get to live that long life you want!

          Also, what I said was my opinion. Apparently you have a hard time with opinions when they differ from yours. So much so that you blocked any replies to your hysteria.

          If you are going to persue further education, you must learn to keep an open mind, read all of the words in a sentence and to respect opinions of others so that your opinion might also be respected.

          I wish you a very long life!

      • Carolyn

        I find it strange that anyone would want voluntary euthansia. It’s natural to want to live; not to die.
        While you made a remark to Sandra abvout being open minded, I have found some people to be so open minded that they are empty headed so careful with
        the open mindness bit.

  • David Fattig

    Are all of you crazy? This site is a joke, right? I’ve never read so many wacky ideas in one place in all my life. Every one knows AIDS is a military weapon left over from Viet Nam. Autism is a plot to destabilize the USA and undermine the lifeblood of our great nation. Vaccinations are a way to introduce genetic defects and disease. The Health care community is in cahoots with the Government to enslave Americans and make us drones without willpower. We will do as we are told or we will be put to death!

    • Rob

      David….Go away.

      • sandra

        Rob…thank you

      • Carolyn

        Because you might not agree with David, there is truth in what he’s saying.
        There have been medical reports that now believe that the degenerative diseases we now have are the result of the vacines we had to take to start school.
        Maybe the fact that the Govt. has experimentred on people in Institutions and tried to hide it should make people question more and be less trusting.
        Talk about stupid: you almost need the Natl. Guards to be called in when a thermometer is broken in the hospital to clean up the mercury and yet mercury is in many if not all the vaccines. Pestilence is another sign of the times and mankind can be the one used to bring it about.

        • Rob

          Ah Carolyn, did you actually read what David wrote???

          He was being sarcastic when he said that EVERYBODY knows Aids is a military weapon left over from Vietnam…. And everything else he said was sarcasim. He does not agree with me, he does not agree with you.

          What do you think David meant when he said, “Are all of you crazy? This site is a joke, right? I’ve never read so many wacky ideas in one place in all my life.”

          Wacky ideas….He means vacinations are all 100% harmless.

          Me I don’t agree 100% But again, this thread is about retaining our right to make our own decisions, and not be subject to MANDATORY anything.

          Didn’t think I would have to spell this one out….

        • Carolyn

          *Rob, I hope you get this as I’m having to reply on my comment here and maybe you will see it.
          You’re right about David’s sarcasm but I think he changed directions before he was sure which way he was going
          . When I said there was some truth*in what he was saying (though way off in left field), he was more than extreme while trying to make his point (Aids the Military weapon).
          It’s been said that for every action there is a reaction. Maybe he was striving for a response by upset. You kind of had to read between the lines and then not too sure exactly his point.

    • SSG Prasuhn

      Way, way, WAY TOO MUCH ‘Sci-Fi’ for this lad!!!!

      Is that the only channel you get on your set?? If you pay cable or ‘dish’ (that’s the only way to get this channel), you’re getting screwed on that bill!!!

      ‘Nuff Said’,

      • Rob

        “Nuff Said”
        Find a new catch phrase Limey, its old, its worn.
        Don’t cha think?
        Geez

        • SSG Prasuhn

          Nope!! It’s NOT old or worn.
          Be careful who you call ‘Limey’ — You don’t even know where I’m from — whether I’m British (the one’s most commonly called ‘Limey’ from WWII days), Polish, Jewish, Italian, Hispanic (pick a country here), German or what. So before you go there…..’Look before you leap’ Lemming!!

          ‘Nuff Said’,

          Get over it, BONEHEAD!! (Ist das besser?!)

        • Rob

          I’m smellin something fruity…..

          Your originate from Britian.

          You are NOT GERMAN…

          Hey lighten up, its your additude I object to.
          If you only knew how much British blood was in me….

          Its the additude.

          I decide when I get the last word, not you.

          Actually, I am thinking you are Puerto Rican….
          Hows that?

    • http://www.travelingbyrv.blogspot.com Stevo

      Dave, you clearly stated what the misguided souls who are against vaccination actually believe:

      Everything is a government plot.

      • Rob

        Stevo, you are going to tell me what I believe?
        I don’t think its a government plot. I think drug makers researched the upside, and rushed it out for profit, and now have no vested interest in determining if there may be any liability associated with use of their product. Vaccines are not natural to the human body. It would stand to reason that there MAY be a downside to their use. I do not expect the drug manufacturers to to publish research that indicate that their product may be harmful. You cannot expect that. Leave that to others.
        Again, though, you have to weigh the pros against the cons. If there is a deadly epidemic raging, the pros just might outweigh the cons. It all depends on context.

        Don’t tell me what I think.
        Because if you can really do that, you shouldn’t be wasting your time here, you should be investing in the market…

  • sandra

    Bob Livingston, you do us all justice with your posting, keeping us all informed with information that no one else will tell us.

    Thank you for your commitment

  • jumping

    What a bunch of gullible fools to believe this trash about vaccines. When the health care system collapsed in Russia and vaccines were no longer available, children started to die from diptheria within three years. None of you seem to remember the thousands who died or were paralyzed from polio in the ’50′s or all the children killed by spinal meningitis until vaccines were introduced against hemophilus influenza and pneumococcus a couple of decades a couple of decades ago. You all need to get out and travel in the third world. Visit a few children’s hospitals. See all the kids dieing of measles and whooping cough. The ignorance demonstrated by these so called “intelligent” Americans is astounding. You need to finder a better source for your health care information that Mr. Livingston, who obviously is crazy as a loon. He probably still thinks that fluoride is a communist plot to sterilize us all.

    • Rob

      Jumping, you are right about the upside of vaccinations. It just about wiped out Polio. True.
      What concerns us is the downside. There are no easy answers. The fear is forced vaccinations. I think these people want to retain their right to be able to choose. If they decide to pass on vaccinations, and you get them, then you have nothing to fear from them getting sick. Theoretically, you are protected.

      I resent that some colleges insist that all students get vaccinated, or they say you will not be allowed to attend. Vaccinated people have nothing to fear from the unvaccinated. So any ideas in the future about mandatory vaccinations, should be abandoned.

      • Eric Bischoff

        Actually, if you do some research you will find that polio disappeared from the face of the earth at the same time in vaccinated and non-vaccinated areas. Humm!, I wonder what that means?

        I’ll tell you what that means, it means some unscrupulous people decided to take credit for it so that it would benefit their business.

        I think that the overuse of vaccination and antibiotics has created more problems than it has solved.

        In reality our biggest breakthrough has been hygiene.

        • Rob

          Eric, no I didn’t do the research. Perhaps you are right, maybe not, I don’t know. Vaccines wiped out small pox.
          I do believe that vaccines in many cases give the body immunity, by exposing the body to a watered down, non threatening version of the disease. But that does not mean that I think they are safe in all cases. I have heard of vaccines being contaminated with other viruses, metals, and so on. I think you have to weigh the risks. I would not ever bother with a flu vaccination. Polio and small pox, if there was a major outbreak, I would consider.

          But the bottom line with this discussion here is, it should NEVER be mandatory. People should be able to retain their right to choose. I have not had a single vaccination since I was 13. I have refused them for 30 years. Thats my choice, but I am not recommending anyone follow it. Make your own choices.
          Rob

        • jumping

          Eric,
          What you think of as research is called “cherry picking” your facts. Any fool can publish any crackpot theory on the internet (witness the author of this blog.) The old saying that applies here is don’t believe what you read and only half of what you see. There is no serious debate that vaccines work. In the last decade, we have seen the virtual elimination of H. influenza and Pneumococcal meningitis from the children in the U.S. These used to be the most common form of meningitis (brain and spinal cord infection) in children, affecting more 1 in 200 children and leaving many dead or permanently disabled. There have been no major changes in hygeine that I am aware of that have occurred in the last decade. The only change is that we immunize children against these diseases at a young age. The notion that vaccines don’t work belongs in the dustbin of history along with notions like the earth is flat and organisms don’t evolve.

        • Rob

          Jumping, you may call Bob Livingston a crack pot, But I have been following him for years and I can assure you crack pots, with their distorted veiws of reality, do not become as rich as Bob Livingston. To become rich, you have to be grounded in reality. Nobody just passes out millions of dollars. I can say since following Bob Livingston from the mid 90′s on, I can say with certainty, that Bob has been 100% right on target with every major financial trend to come our way. Bob told us to buy gold when it was $350. an oz. “Just shut your eyes and buy, buy, buy!! It will go to $1000.” IT HAS. Bob has an uncanny ability to see the trends. If his judgement was that far off, he wouldn’t be right so often, now would he? So with that type of analytical mind, and being so right in financial affairs, do you really believe his research into medicine could be so wrong?
          Health and wealth, thats what he researches. Its very unlikely Bob would be so right on one topic, and so wrong on another. Its the same fact finding analysis he uses to make himself rich, that he uses to uncover little know medical facts.
          I do not agree with all his medical info, but he is merely sharing what he has found.
          I can say Bob is careful to research before he publishes…. It very well could be me thats wrong, when I disagree with Bob… I don’t know.

          And Jumping, we are not saying that vacines don’t work. We are saying that there may be a downside to their useage. Aside from contamination of the vacine itself, their may be permanent and excessive autoimmune responses after being exposed to vacines, that extend beyoned mere immunity to a pathogen.
          I think some honest research is in order. Key word: HONEST.

    • Rob

      Jumping, Bob Livingston is far from crazy.
      Concerning your comment on flouride, no, I don’t think Bob believes its a communist plot…..
      My wife has a Masters in chemistry, she assures me that flouride is in fact toxic, even in small amounts. True, as the rep from Armand Hammer told me, “Its the industry standard for cavity prevention,” it does prevent cavities. Its also been linked to bone cancer, and has a seditive effect on the brain with possible permant mild brain damage to young children. Flouride hardens developing teeth, protecting them from cavities. It does nothing for developed adult teeth. So why then does all adult toothpast contain flouride? I just question the reasoning that places cavity prevention above cancer prevention and learning/behavioral disorders in children.
      Bottom line, flouride is not safe. It says right on the label to contact a poison control center if swallowed.
      Listen, I absolutely believe that medicine is here to help us. But the system that was created is not the best. We are put into a situation of overmedicating the elderly. The odds dictate that there will be a percentage that become confused over their dosing and will die as a result. Dangerous drugs are routinely approved by the FDA. This will take more lives. Drug interactions will claim yet even more. We are not in an optimum situation, and I don’t believe is is by chance. The lack of accountability and recourse in medical malpractice that results directly in death, I think is a major tipoff.

      This 2 edged sword, to borrow a phrase from Bob Livingston, “Operates above the threshold of human intelligence.”

    • SSG Prasuhn

      And your credentials are from where? The ‘school of no thought’?? Thought so!!

      ‘Nuff Said’,

      • Rob

        Skidmore University, and Saint Joesph College.

    • Carolyn

      Well Europe took flouride out of the water there because of the health problems created over a period of time.
      Goodness the fact that it comes from fertilizer scrubbers should be no need for concern.
      I assure you, Bob Livingston is no loon. Truth and facts are hard for some people to handle.

  • jumping

    P.S. Thimerosol has not been present in children’s vaccines for close to a decade, but it hasn’t influenced the increase in autism one bit. Recently the founder of one of the parent’s groups against vaccines resigned saying that it was time to move on and devote resources to more promising avenues of research and to better treatment. Naturally, she has been labeled a traitor by those who have made up their minds to ignore the evidence, like Mr. Livingston.

  • Gigi

    Overpopulated? We most certainly are not. There is more unused and habitable land than we know what to do with. The fact that people choose to live in “clusters” large and small does not in any way indicate overpopulation. Countries like China are now reaping the “benefits” of population control, benefits that have left them with an unbalanced and weak population. They have selectively disallowed the birth of girls for so long now that the numbers of women who are the ones who would have given birth to the future male children are dramatically reduced to the point of more than just a little bit of concern for them. For me, the underlying concern in all this “engineering” is that sooner than later we will indeed be the property of government with no personal liberty at all. The idea that we somehow owe this vague “collective” our lives, money, property, allegiance etc. and that we should just have the common courtesy to die at a certain age is scary. Who is going to make these decisions? Who gets to say whose life is worth continuing or not? On what basis will these decisions be made? Good grief!! What are we becoming?

  • sandra

    GiGi, your fears are well founded as we have become a society of short term memory only. We care passionitly for something today and then its of to something else tomarrow. What do I get?? has become the lead to ( do we do anything about this). what about me, noboby cares about me, where did we lose the word (we). Not to long ago in the days of compassion these thing we talk of today whould have made us an outcast of society. How quickly things change. We want a better life for our children and our children what a no hassle life from us…what are you going to do about dad has replaced what are we to do with dad?
    sad is the word, sick, a sick society will replace sad and deadly will replace sick..you keep this going….and see where it ends..

  • American Citizen

    I am 75 years old and have been fighting breast cancer that has metastasized into my sternum for 12 years now. I have had excellent care by my oncologists. They have been kind, supportive, helpful and I love them. I also think prayer has a lot to do with my surviving up to this point. There was no history of breast cancer in my family. Other types, yes, but not that one.
    As for vaccines, we had six children and some had the measles (the older ones before the vaccines) and the three younger ones all had the vaccines with no ill effects. We have had the flu shots with no effects other than a little soreness at the needle site.
    I have had many hospital stays, some involving my surgery, as has my husband. He had a major stroke at the age of 50 and is now 76 years old. He was able to go back to work as a supervisor at our local hospital after therapy. He had another stroke two years ago, but is still walking upright with his “aide”, a cane or half walker. We enjoy life with our family and have had excellent medical care all along. I, too, fear the march to socialized medicine. I’ve heard too many bad stories from people in Canada and England as to the care they get, or rather, don’t get. That’s why they come to this country for treatment. We have the best health care system in the world and Obama wants to screw it up big time.

  • ONTIME

    Apparently in this nation’s thinking today conception is a risk that might harm the environment and the idea that one might grow old and need care is a inconvenience, so possible contributions to humanity due to birth and those contributions made to mankind during a lifetime are no more than societal gratis. This means if your lucky enough to be born whatever you do is for the state……Socialism 101.

  • jumping

    All these complaints about the current system, but everyone is afraid of change. Let’s face it, the current system is set up so the wealthy get the best health care and the poor get none. Ironically, the poor may be better off because the driving force behind our present system is to make money, to preform procedures, to sell expensive drugs. The poor aren’t subjected to that. As for vaccines, the concept driving vaccination programs is called herd immunity. Once vaccination rates fall to between 80-85%, there is a real risk of outbreaks. Texas has had that experience over and over again with measles. In case you think that is a harmless illness, 1 out of 1000 people who get measles die from it, another 1 in 100 are left with brain damage. And that is in an industrialized country. The figures are horrendous for third world countries where malnutrition and parisitism complicate the issue. Please people, get informed and get information from a variety of sources, not just from crackpots like this one.

    • Rob

      Ahh, afraid of change?? Are you kidding? Americans voted in the CHANGE President. They wanted change. Just not THIS CHANGE!

      You don’t know what you are talking about when it comes to the US. Stick with Britian….

  • jumping

    sorry, that last statistic is 1 out out of a thousand get brain damage.

  • jumping

    Rob,
    With all due respect, you are cherry picking your facts. The studies on cancer in rats were done with a strain of rats genetically prone to a cancer called osteogenic sarcoma. They were fed huge doses of fluoride over an extended period of time. Surprise! Some of them got osteogenic sarcoma. As for fluoride being toxic in large amounts, so is table salt. There are many substances we consume in small amounts which are perfectly safe, but they become dangerous in large amounts. Consumer Reports has an excellent report on Fluoride and the Cancer scare. I urge you to read it. They did an excellent job of debunking the myths around the harm that flouride does. Their conclusion: it is safe and effective.

    • SSG Prasuhn

      BIG Question…..did they make any comment to the ‘cumulative’ results of flouride over the years?? My bet is…NO!

      As with most everything…nothing will harm you in ‘small’ dosages/amounts. It’s the ‘large’ (and unknow results of ‘cumulative’ amounts) of the drug or chemical, or whatever that ‘does you in’. This has been proven. It’s just not ‘mentioned’ by the ‘drug czars’ (Big Pharma, etc.). Otherwise, they’d lose money in the production and $ale$ of their ‘goods’.

      ‘Nuff Said’,

      • James

        Dear SSG,

        Actually, your claim is only partially true. For many items, there is indeed a “threshhold” effect where the adverse consequence happens only above a certain level of exposure. However, for other items, there is a “propoortional response” where the adverse consequence will happen proportional to the exposure. For instance, would you be willing to consume a very small quantity of plutonium? Most likely not, because it is unbelievably toxic, and no minimum safe level has been found.
        But you are correct that the cumulative effects are largely unknown, mostly because those are very difficult things to study. The number of possible variables (factors affecting the outcome) over a person’s lifetime is too large to even design a study around, let alone the interaction possibilities (i.e. the combined cumulative effects of two or more things). Some of these things are known, but most there is no clue about, and most
        likely never will be.

        • jumping

          James,
          There is a relatively new branch of the life sciences devoted to “fractal” physiology that can explain some of the phenomenon you mention, but the for most part, only time will tell.
          It is fascinating to see what people consider risky. This falls under the category of psychology (unfortunately, often abnormal psychology.) No amount of data will convince many people that vaccines are safer than the alternatives. There has been no thimerasol in children’s vaccines for close to a decade. During this time, there has been no change in the rise of the incidence of autism. One would think that that settles the question, but you still see people like Mr. Livingston warning of the dangers of thimerasol.
          Similarly, flouride has been added to drinking water for over 50 years. So far there have been no ill effects found from this experiment. I personally would have been unhappy with the lack of data when fluoride was first added to drinking water, but 50 years later, there is ample data as to its safety and it is hard to get upset about it. More to the point, it is ludicrous to think that it is part of some dastardly plot to euthanize American citizens. That makes Dr. Strangelove seem a reasonable man by comparison.

    • Carolyn

      We can have a choice about salt but Flouride in you water is like forced medication. We don’t have a choice here.

    • Rob

      “Nothing will harm you in small doses…”

      Hmmm, Wrong.

      Many times its the culmulative effect of SMALL DOSE exposure over a long period of time that will harm you.
      Flouride is mandated by the federal government to be included in public supplied drinking water. We have no choice. Its forced. I have to pay for it, but I cannot drink it. So I do not drink public supplied drinking water. More expenses…

      Flouride is toxic to the thyroid. My thyroid doctor even told me so…

      Whether something is toxic in small amounts depends on a lot of factors. Factors like how fast the body eliminates the substance, on average, Personal Metabolism, how much you are ingesting, how frequently, how toxic is it? Genetic weaknesses.

      How much toxic crap we injest should be our own choice. Again in keeping with the spirit of this web site, its the fact that its put into almost ALL Adult toothpaste, and federally mandated into our tap water, that we object to. This site is about personal liberty. Where is personal liberty, when your choices are removed by industry and the federal government?

      Its about personal choice. Your right to decide what you want, over some federal agency packed with nonexperts and industry representatives with a vested interest, deciding whats best for you.

      Bob does not call this site Personal Liberty Digest for nothing…

      Free choice, get on board.

  • Ginny

    My parents died of cancer in 1984 three months apart. Both were in their mid-60′s. I agree with Debra on death and dying. My mother talked non-stop for four hours before she died. She said she was not hungry or thirsty and hadn’t been for about 10 days so, of course, we hydrated her through IV’s since WE were thirsty. It was similar to putting a sweater on your child because you are cold. She had battled non-Hodgkin’s lymphoma for 27 years though a non-related cancer actually caused her death.

    To me, Debra makes two important points: we keep people alive that God would have allowed to die if we humans had not intervened with extraordinary measures, such as Ms. Schiavo, and secondly, one should have the right to die with dignity if that is one’s wish. I would have done anything to keep my parents alive, including extraordinary measures, praying for a cure or a miracle but they explicitly stated numerous times that that was not their wish. You have no idea how heart wrenching that was for my three siblings and me. We were so blessed to have them as parents that we truly did not want them to leave us. To have kept them alive in the same condition as Ms. Schiavo would not only have been cruel and immoral but totally selfish on our part.

    I only hope I have a nurse like Debra when it’s time for me to die.

    Many respondents seemed intent on climbing on their favorite soapbox when responding to Debra’s comments. As for abortion, malpractice, and medical incompetency, they are indeed topics which need to be addressed but were well beyond the scope of what Debra was saying.

    As for vaccines, they have saved many lives and enriched the lives of others by preventing many disabilities. I had polio as a child and I would not wish that on anyone. I also had a brother die of measles. This was in the early ’50′s. A parent should have the right to risk his/her child’s life if he/she so chooses but vaccines have done FAR more good than evil. As for the correlation between autism and vaccines, no reputable research has been able to find a link, though many pseudo-researchers have published papers supporting their own biases, correct or not. A Ph.D. or M.D. is not necessarily indicative of a good researcher. In fact, M.D.’s normally have no training whatsoever in writing research though they do learn how to read and supposedly interpret it.

    The mercury additive was problematic but not related to autism. Personally, I would not want a child of mine vaccinated with a vaccine containing mercury. A second problem related to vaccines is too many in too short a time span, which was apparently the case with Jenny McCarthy’s son. If you are late starting the vaccination process, don’t let any doctor rush it or combine vaccines that are not normally combined.

    • debra

      Ginny ..OH MY GOD… thank you..thank you!! You were able to get across what I wasn`t able to. I was becoming very afraid. Again thank you.

  • jumping

    SSG Prashun,
    You have a point, but the fact is that fluoridation has been around for over 50 years now and noone has been able to find any diseases tied to fluoride accumulating in the body. I personally am much more concerned with the pollution of our water and air by industrial waste. I think the fluoride issue is a red herring to distract us from this. The amount of mercury consumed in one tuna fish sandwich is scary. We can actually measure the mercury in the air coming over from China. I would hate to live in LA, where people breathe in pounds of toxic chemicals every year. I bet Mr. Livingston has no problems with polluting our children in the name of free enterprise.

  • jumping

    Ginny,
    You restore my faith in humanity. That poor Schiavo family was used and abused by the politicians of the religious right. Did you know that while all that was going on, life support was withdrawn from a child in Texas against the mother’s wishes? It was done using a law that ex President Bush signed while he was governor. The child was not brain dead, but he was on medicaid and lacked the financial resources to pay for his care. He would ultimately have died, but it was the first time ever that life support was withdrawn against a parent’s wishes in the United States. It was certainly a well kept secret, though local newspapers got hold of the story and managed to get it out for anyone who wants to read about it. The law is called the Texas Futile Care law in common parlance and anyone can google it for the whole story.
    Meantime, here in Washington State, the people have passed a law allowing doctors to assist in suicide for the terminally ill. Some people want to go further and force doctors and hospitals to provide this “service.” The problem with making issues of situations like the Schiavo case is that it obscures the really important ones and people lose their moral compass. There is a world of difference between not using extraordinary means to prolong life and actively terminating life.

  • sandra

    Open letter to Rocky, Thank you for caring;;

    just read your last comment and boy are you right. I do need to calm down, read all the words in the sentance and learn to see the difference between reality and opinion.

    And as a new college student I do need to be open minded and respect the opinions of others. There wasn’t anything in your post that was not accurate.

    And I need to thank you for writting it. Sometimes we get sooo wraped up in what’s being implied that we lose sight of the truth. I am a passioate person, and by birth have been given all the blood lines of a quick temper and a quicker mouth. I do , however accept honesty when it is pointed out that I am over the line. I hope we can become friends, talk on this and other subjects and decide what’s best for these beauitiful families we have produced. I think if we were to ask them what to do, they would want you in their lives for as long as possible. Life dosen’t end when we age…but with ageing we have a responsibly to make the world a better place than when we entered it. We have obtained wisdom…knowledge…patience ( some of us ) and many other’s traits unavaible to the younger generation (yet).Let’s band together to fulfill our destiny’s in life and stop this talk of ( making room )
    Remember when we were teenagers and thought we knew better than our parents…they were so outdated…they had no idea what it was like to be a teen.
    And remember when we got older and we told our parents they were right!!!!
    That’s why we need to hang around…we know more about life than they do, we have already paid the price for what we did wrong, why should they???
    God Bless you and again<<<<<<thanks for being honest and compasionate.

  • jumping

    Rob,
    Two major universities in Washington State had to shut down for a semester about a decade ago because some German exchange students brought measles into their dormitories. There were enough incompletely immunized and otherwise susceptible individuals that the schools had to be closed, costing millions of dollars. I think that any college that wants to avoid that scenario and insist on immunizations against communicable diseases is well within their rights. There are always dingbat institutions that think they are exempt from the laws of nature who will take the few students who feel that this requirement is an imposition on their freedom. Of course, that means there will be a high percentage of unimmunized children attending those institutions, placing them at much greater risk of disease, but that is their choice.

    • Rob

      Ginny, your mother may not have been thirsty BECAUSE you were hydrating her.

      If your mother continued to live, you can bet it was because of God’s will. Its hard enough just trying to stay alive. When your time is up, you will most certainly die.

      God gave us our clever minds, we invented life support, now we are morally obligated to use it.
      Nobody lives forever. Nobody.
      Use the life support, when God says your time is up, life support or not, you are gone.

      Believe me, man cannot stop God’s will.

      Just as the Jews did not derail God’s plan by nailing Jesus to a cross. Unwittingly, the Jews were instrumental in carrying out God’s plan for Christians. No matter how you try to spin it, God wins.

      If we have the means to sustain sacred life, then we are obligated to do so, for it is not up to man to decide who gets to live and who gets to die.

      We are to maintain what we were given, let God decide.

    • Rob

      36.
      Jumping,

      I do not disagree.

      But it should be the choice of the INDIVIDUAL NOT the university or some government agency.

      Personal choice= Personal Liberty.

      Those who choose vacinations, are techincally protected. Correct?

      So whats the problem with choice?

      • jumping

        Rob,
        It gets complicated. Vaccines are not 100% effective. Live vaccines like measles require careful handling, which they do not always get. Thus some people who are immunized are not adequately protected. The long and short of it is that when immunization rates fall to somewhere between 80 & 85%, outbreaks can occur if disease is introduced into the system. This is why the universities in Washington State had to close for a semester. An exchange student from Europe introduced measles into the system. There were enough unimmunized or inadequately immunized students that outbreaks occurred. The universities in question had to shutter their doors for a semester. There is a certain amount of leeway, but when a university has to consider the very real risk of shutting down for a semester with the loss of millions of dollars, they are entitled to make the rules. Those students who do not like this can always find an “alternative” school in which to enroll (pun intended.) Their freedom to not be vaccinated is thus not being infringed upon, but the university retains its freedom to protect itself also.

  • FarRightWinger

    And guess what! If you question the Evil Empire (a.k.a. the US “government”), it will be considered as ‘terrorism’ and u will be labeled as anti-semitic!

  • http://www.consevativeunderground.net Donna C

    Unfortunatly, I have read many articiles on what our government has been doing for many years, to control the population. I am still in ” Shock ” that a country, that can send our military,& fiancial support, to other countries in the name of ” liberating ” them are actually, removing the people from this life..This country is NOT the country I always held so much pride in. I too have doubts about the vaccines given to children, all 3 of my grandaughters have had seizures, and now with a new gt grandchild coming , I am deeply concerned. My last grandchild, has signs our nuerological problems, she will become blank in her looks and grip her hands in a fist, and bare down and shake.she wwill be 11 this year. We faught to keep her breathing as a infant, as she stopped many times when she would have a seizure. The school wanted her put on medications to keep her calm. My daughter said NO and has home schooled, she is very smart. As for the medical care we will get in the future,,I am scared to death already..I do believe infants, disabled, elderly, people w/ diseases will be in jeopardy..even more than we have seen..My grandma at 72 had one leg removed because of a shot given and caused a blood clot, then yrs later in the same hospital, dropped on the floor by a 1 nurse , trying to get her in a wheelchair. my g. ma was 5’10″ and a lg woman. She was dead the next day, she had a ulcer that perforated and she hemmoraged to death..We could have sued , but didn’t. My step- g.ma was in a nursing home, and the aide put her in a whirlpool at 3AM to give her a bath, left to answer at lite , forgot her..Came back 3 hrs later..she had drowned..The aide went to prison. I had never heard of giving a bath at that time of day…I am a nurse of 26 yrs. and have worked in a nursing home, hospital, and pvt care, never would I neglect a patient . I have witnessed abuse. I have seen a nurse give the wrong meds to a patient, and called her on it, to stop the IV, I was a visitor at the time. She could have killed the man. she never looked at his name tag..I should have gone to the floor nurse, or administator. I am very affraid of where this country is going, all I can say is God be with all of us..

  • jumping

    Donna C,
    3 grandchildren with seizures? I hope they were just febrile seizures, because they will outgrow those. If not, I think your family needs the services of a good geneticist. Shots or not, it is unusual to have a cluster of seizures like that in a family unless there is some underlying problem. Unless there is something you are not telling us about their parents.

  • William Chapman

    I think doctors should have the right to decide What is best for old people.I am turning 65 I have Kidney problems and other things going bad and no insurance. If I can’t pay for my doctor treatments Why should the doctor have to give me care?

    • debra

      If you are 65 why do you not have medicare??

    • Rob

      William, please do not let your bad situation determine whats good for everybody else. Some old people have lost their minds and have no comprehension whats best for them. In the absence of a family, then fine, let the doctor decide.

      The doctor and patient are a team.

      The doctor makes recomendations. YOU research what he says. YOU decide.

      Heres a little known fact: Some doctors are actually in medicine for the money. The higher the bill, the more they make. See a problem here? Yeah, thats HALF the problem with health care…

    • Janet Drennan

      Rn for over 40 yrs..worked in many settings and levels of management as well as pt care. NOW, computers are the only thng that matters 2 nurses..must get computer charting done becus that’s what goes to COURT…not the pt. To hell with pt care…no accountability among nurses or MDs anymore. No such thng as compassion..a job is a job,,is a job,,is a job!! Irresponsible beh., mistakes that are buried (i.e. dead pts), all about the $$$. Once there was action taken when careless mistakes made, now “well, we’re short staffed..don’t push UR luck..at least you got your TV dinner albiet COLD, don’t expect meds on time or response 2 calls 4 a nurse..gotta do that damn charting..that’s what goes to court..document it whether U get around 2 doing it or not..make chart look GOOD”. So disgusted and disappointed N quality of care, lack of true compassion, empathy, dedication, ‘only money’ mentality. Wish I could GO BACK AND be a nurse manager again & instill true meaning of health profession “do no harm” but lost forever to the almighty $. Pharmaceutical lobbyist with deep pockets and politicians with only intent to pad their pockets as quickly and fully as poss. in as little time poss. Why WON’T we revolt?? Richest nation on earth with POOREST quality of care, most expensive, and reserved for elitest. Truly believe that eventually all but pallitive care will go to rich; others ..like common working ppl..will be gun fodder. No one REALLY knows what’s in the HEALTH CARE BILL..not even ppl who are voting on it.. Tacked on pork barrell crap spending in the trillions, no one cares. Falin’ Palin blissfully ignorant tinkerbell bimbo ‘impresssing’ the hero-hunters who finally can relate because they’ve got someone who’s as stupid as they are. What a mess we’ve made of a once-great, most respected (feared!!), rich country that now owes it’s heart and soul to China..how in God’s name, Jehovah, did we let this happen?? How did we get in debt over our heads to the greatest threat to democracy that has ever existed, our largest enemy…now holding the ‘contract on America’ in the palm of it’s human-rights-denying, female-baby-murdering, democracy-hating, slave-laboring, humanity-defying hands??? Our grandchildren may well have chinese-speaking children–would you be surprised??

  • K Gopal Rao

    As a 3rd world resident in India, I dont quite understand the US scene. So many different vaccines for so many diseases, with so many side effects (autism?). Our scene is recommended vaccines for the most life-threatening diseases going (small-pox, cholera, polio, measles, etc.), and these are generally looked upon as necessary immunity creators and boosters. And it seems to go that way, too. So how has percetio/fact become different in the US? I know this isn’t a comment on the problem as described by Bob, and seemingly agreed to by many readers, but I really would appreciate a backgrounder if anyone (Bob?) can spare the time for it.

    • http://Vaccines Ginny

      The U.S. policy on vaccines is that all children must be vaccinated against the diseases you cover in your comments before they enter elementary school. If the students have been home schooled, then they must be vaccinated before entering all but a very few private colleges and universities. No vaccinations for exotic diseases, such as anthrax or even small pox, are included in the mandatory vaccinations.

      The majority of parents recognize the life-saving quality of vaccines and would never even dream of not vaccinating their children. However, there is a nascent movement for a very small affluent segment of society that believe vaccines are more dangerous than the diseases they prevent. Unfortunately, most of their “research” upon which they base their decisions about vaccines is anecdotal, not based in good, solid scientific research, or, in the worst cases, based in quackery or spewed forth by doctors of questionable competencies and motives out to make a quick dollar.

      Within the past several months, the National Institutes for Health and the Center for Disease Control, both government entities, have discussed instituting a mass education process for the general public in an effort to dispel the myths and misinformation being distributed throughout society, primarily by several high-profile personalities.

      • jumping

        Ginny,
        I am very glad to hear another voice of reason on this blog.

      • jumping

        The only issue I would take with your statement is to say that the movement to eschew immunizations has become large enough to be a public health problem in some states. I wish this were not the case, but the old saying “out of sight, out of mind” is very applicable to this phenomenon. The very success of immunizations has made people cavalier about their phenomenal benefits. I am afraid it will take outbreaks of vaccine preventable diseases to change some minds, as as already happened in some countries.

    • Hindi Yogara

      I too am from India. I prefer the natural method of immunization. One quick swim in the Ganges River, and you will be exposed to every pathagen known to man. Vacines are no safer, the Ganges has mercury and all types of metals and chemicals too.
      If you survive it, it will make you strong.

      Om Mani Pad Hum
      Hindi

      Hope for rain.

  • Eric Bischoff

    Sorry Jumping. You either work someone who has a vested interest in spreading this bull or maybe you are just totally misinformed. In which case you shouldn’t try to sound so much like you know what you are talking about. Some of us have had this information for over 40 years now. Here is an article from Dr Mercola who has the 3rd most successful health site. It is a good overview on this subject and all of the untruth bantered around by people like you. I don’t know where you get your info but I would file yours under propaganda.
    http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2002/12/30/dtp-vaccine.aspx

    • jumping

      Eric,
      I base my information on a lifetime of reading and treating patients. Over 30 years now. During that time, I have witnessed the dramatic disappearance of spinal meningitis and life threatening pneumonias from my pediatric practice, both very shortly after the introduction of vaccines against those illnesses.

      Did you know that the first vaccine was introduced by a Buddhist nun in China in the 10th century? It was a crude vaccine by our standards, consisting of ground up scabs from people who had survived smallpox. The powder was inhaled like snuff and either killed you or gave you immunity against smallpox. That method of vaccination traveled to the Middle East, where the wives of British civil servants noticed that the children of their maids survived smallpox outbreaks, whereas their own did not. They adopted the practice of vaccination in the Middle East and took it back to England with them. Fortunately, it was quickly realized that cowpox infections induced immunity against smallpox as effectively (and much more safely.) The medical establishment of the time didn’t think much of the practice, but success speaks for itself, and smallpox vaccination was soon accepted as part of medicine. Since then, there have been successful vaccines developed against many illnesses. It may be that we have gone overboard in vaccinating against such relatively minor illnesses as chickenpox, but that doesn’t take away from the remarkable success story that is vaccination.
      The only explanation I can see for attitudes such as yours is that you live in a country where you are protected by the vaccination of all those around you. In Russia, exactly 3 years after they stopped vaccinating against diphtheria, epidemics started up. I have treated many patients from India, Africa, South America, and Central America. They all know first hand the importance of vaccination, having experienced the death of loved ones from vaccine preventable diseases. One of their highest priorities is to make sure their children are protected from the vaccines.

      I have written articles for such magazines as “Mothering Magazine,” not exactly a supporter of vaccination, but at least open enough to look at potential benefits from the practice. I have been cited by them several times as an example of a knowledgeable physician who is open to discussing the risks and benefits of various vaccinations. I live in a state where vaccines are provided free to all comers, so I derive no financial benefit from giving vaccines.

      I have repeatedly run into difficulty obtaining some vaccines because they are not profitable to manufacture and sell. We are now in the midst of a shortage of the vaccine against H. influenza meningitis. I find this hard to square with your paranoid idea that the CDC, WHO, big Pharma, and organized medicine are in cahoots to kill our citizens with vaccines, but I have given up trying to understand the vagaries of the human mind a long time ago. Educate yourself. Don’t just read people who reinforce your point of view. Read the opposition too. You might be surprised at what you learn.

      • jumping

        Heh! Must be a Freudian slip:
        One of their highest priorities is to make sure their children are protected BY vaccines.

      • Eric Bischoff

        Jumping
        OK so we both have a lifetime of reading. We then just believe and follow different practices and ways of life. I am a supporter and user of homeopathy for one. I believe in remedies that do no harm. Something you can’t say about vaccination. You still can’t deny the facts about the simultaneous disappearances of diseases where there wasn’t any vaccinations.

        And how do you explain the resurgence of diseases where people have been vaccinated. These diseases seem to come and go and mutate as they please. The only thing we should be concerned with is keeping our immune systems healthy and our current western healthcare and nutrition system is not very good at that.

        As a doctor for you to say that I am protected by the vaccination of others is pretty ridiculous. And the practice of doctors to hand out antibiotics like candy is the biggest culprit in weakening people’s immune systems. This will go down in history as a huge mistake.

        I think we are making a huge mistake in over vaccinating in the western industrial nations and you have no idea of what the damage is from the cocktail vaccinations.

        I am not impressed by doctor’s credentials. I don’t bow down to these titles. I know backwoods uneducated grand mothers who know more about simple remedies and staying healthy.

        Yes there is place for vaccination and it is for the poor, unhealthy, malnourished. Although I think that we would serve the world better by raising the standard of living, improving nutrition and hygiene. Running water would be nice.

        The problem is that our healthcare system is huge big money business and it is no longer concerned with making people healthy because that would wipe them out. They are interested in maximum profits for shareholders and the more sick people we have and the more expensive the treatment the more they all make. Thus the current heart and cancer industry.

        I read many sides of the stories and I am always willing to learn and I am never too stuck in my ways to change my mind when the time is right. I firmly believe that there’s always an alternative.

        • jumping

          Eric,
          You need to read about the concept of herd immunity. No vaccine is 100% effective. When vaccination rates fall to between 80 and 85%, diseases that can be controlled become a problem again. Between the unvaccinated children and the ones who are inadequately immunized, along with the ones who experience failure of their vaccination, disease appear again.Texas has had this problem with measles on and off thoughout the years. As long as vaccination rates are high enough, you are unlikely to be exposed to vaccine preventable diseases.
          Most of my patients who elect not to immunize their children while they are living in the US change their minds quickly when they go to live in a third world country where many children are not immunized and vaccine preventable diseases are common. It is not just a question of poverty, malnutrition, and poor living conditions.These are all important factors in determining the severity of the disease, but to neglect the part that vaccination plays is to ignore the lessons of history.
          As for not being impressed by my credentials, you asked for them and I don’t recall ever giving them out directly, Maybe you have a bit of a chip on that shoulder?

      • Eric Bischoff

        Jumping
        you hit the nail right on the head. The CDC, the WHO, the EPA and big pharma all in cohoots. Revolving doors for jobs. EPA salaries paid for by big pharma. Doctors enticed to get people to try drugs while they are offered vacation packages under the guise of a learning seminar. Only in America do people want to be doctors to get rich.

        You have to wonder why a guy like Rumsfeld would have anything to do in the health or food industry but his name pops up all over the place. He was instrumental in making sure that asparthame was legalized. He is involved in bird flu and makes money from Tamiflu.

        The sooner we stop applying war thinking the better offf we’ll be. War on drugs, war on cancer, war on terrorism. No more wars. Strenghtem the immune system and you won’t need a war. Chemotherapy and radiation therapy are wars on our immune system It’s amazin people actually survive it as they do. Vaccination is as crude as bleeding people. There are better ways unfortunately they are cheaper so this industry is not interested. Gota feed the shareholders.

        You can’t see the forest for the trees.

      • K G Rao

        Dear Jumpin’,
        Glad to see that one medical person (you) and one non-medical person (Ginny) seem to feel the anti-vaccine campaign in the US has been blown out of proportion. Funny thing is, while I’m a 3rd worlder who feels entirely pro-vaccine for our scene, looking at all the posts, especially those by the two Erics after my query, I am surprised to see a link to an article by (or approved by) Dr.Mercola, which explains that (a) public health improvements deserve most of the credit for disease control, not vaccines, and (b) many vaccines have an adverse effect. This latter, especially, is what I dont understand. Does it really happen?

        • jumping

          Risk tolerance is an interesting field of study. For example, it is far riskier to drive a car than to fly, but most people are more afraid of flying. During the course of an average day, most of us make constant assessments of risk, either explicitly or implicitly. We live with the risks associated with driving our cars without too much thought because it is part of our daily lives. Other risks we tolerate because we are unaware of their extent (eg. air pollution). Are there risks inherent in vaccines? When polio was a common disease, we used a live polio virus vaccine to stop outbreaks of polio because it was the most effective. It was accepted that there was a 1 in 3,000,000. risk of contracting polio from the live vaccine, but this was outweighed by the fear of polio itself. Once polio was controlled, that 1 in 3,000,000 risk became unacceptable, so we switched to a killed polio vaccine, incapable of causing disease. It is not as effective in controlling outbreaks, but offers good protection for individuals so immunized. The issue is not whether there was a risk, but whether the risk was outweighed by the benefits.
          We are fortunate in the United States to live in a country where most or the vaccine preventable diseases are well controlled. For some, the lessons of history ring hollow and they would prefer to return to the days when children (and adults) were easy prey for these disease causing microbes. Fortunately, most of us have a community that retains the memory of those days and is willing to accept small, mostly theoretical, risk for the sake of real, quantifiable benefits.
          The problem is that many people who oppose immunization do so on theoretical and personal grounds rather than scientific ones. For example, many people are convinced that thimerosal (which contains ethyl mercury) in vaccines causes many developmental problems, including autism. There is much evidence that this is not the case, not the least of which is that it has been almost a decade since thimerosal was removed from children’s vaccines in the US and there has been no appreciable change in the incidence of autism or other developmental disabilities.
          Why then do people continue to fear that vaccines cause autism rather than look at the more obvious reasons that have scientific research to affirm their validity. For some it is anti-estblishment paranoia (see the writings of the two Erics.) For many it is genuine fear caused by information overload. Any fool can print anything on the internet and publish it as if it was authoritative information. The author of this blog is an excellent example of that, as is Dr. Mercola. The internet is supplanting peer reviewed, scientific journals as the source of information for many. Data is no longer as important as fear in driving decisions.
          In answer to your question, it is riskier by many orders of magnitude for the average person to drive the few miles to their doctor’s office than it is for them to receive immunizations. There is more mercury of the harmful kind (methyl mercury) in a tuna sandwich than in all the vaccines a child might have received before ethyl mercury was removed from the vaccines. People’s perception of these relative risks is colored by their fears and misinformation they ingest. Facts cease to matter.

  • Eric g

    I’am not so sure our doctors are free right now to prescribe the treatments that they wish to use ? I believe there is already is a best treatment all ready decided for them to legally use . if they chose to differ from the recomended treatnent they could get into trouble . And naturually they wish to aviod trouble and keep their liciense . So they stick with the recommended highest price treatments . Not neccesary the best or lowest cost methods to use .

  • jumping

    To the two Erics,
    There isn’t any point to continuing this discussion since it has become about belief systems rather than science. Like politics and religion, there is no real dialogue. I respect your right to your belief systems, but beg to differ in several important respects. I have never taken a cent from a drug company and have never profited from big pharma. I prescribe generic medications unless there is no choice. I only prescribe antibiotics in life and death situations. I agree with you that antibiotics are overused by many doctors and that is causing major problems
    The whole notion that all doctors are somehow being coerced into prescribing expensive and unnecessary treatments for the profit of big pharma and the hospital industry, along with the CDC and WHO is extremely paranoid. Our crazy system has evolved because of the application of the profit motive to a basic human need. The doctors who make a lot of money are the ones who perform expensive procedures (open heart surgery for clogged arteries, plastic surgery to delay the signs of aging to name a few examples.) It may be that many doctors are now entering the system to make big bucks, but that is a perversion of the system by the profit motive. Fortunately there are still many dedicated young men and women who enter the profession for altruistic reasons and become family physicians, pediatricians, and internists. Unless they perform procedures, they are not going to get rich. Our society does not value preventative medicine. Proper nutrition, diet, decrease in pollution (both personal in the form of smoking and industrial in the form of air and groundwater pollution), these are not valuable to most Americans, who would rather depend on drugs and procedures, and yes, homeopathic remedies, to undo a lifetime of neglect rather than live right in the first place.
    Finally, I will reiterate that in my lifetime, particularly the last decade, I have seen life-threatening bacterial pneumonia and meningitis disappear from the population I serve within a few years of the introduction of vaccines against these diseases. During this time, there have been no major changes in hygiene or living standards in this population. The only significant change was the use of these vaccines. We are not talking third world countries or people without the benefit of high living standards. Neither are we talking remote past history. The only child with meningitis I have treated in the last year was one whose parents were talked out of vaccinating their second child by an alternative care provider. He is now deaf and his parents are ardent crusaders for the immunization of all children.

  • s c

    According to a news release today, the government will fork over more regulatory powers to the FDA to ‘control’ tobacco products [to save us from ourselves]. Senator Dodd (D, CT) said we could have saved a lot of lives if this transfer of power was done 10 years ago. Maybe. But, since this is yet another way for a bloated, pork-fed government to get even bigger – and guarantee that tobacco subsidy recipients rip America again – I see no reason to be impressed. If our
    multi-faced Washington saviors want to help SAVE lives, food producers should be FORCED (for their good) to stop selling inferior quality food (for AMERICA’S good)!

  • K G Rao

    Juming,
    Thanks for a very comprehensive explanation of the US scene. All too true, what you say about the internet replacing peer reviewed medical journals. However, while I haven’t checked afresh, I thought Dr. Mercola’s articles were always backed up by references to source articles from, well, peer reviewed medical journals. Evidently you feel differently? Could u recommend internet newsletters which will keep the lay public like me informed of developments and debates, with unimpeachable references? Thanks.

    • jumping

      K G Rao,
      Dr. Mercola does indeed quote freely from peer reviewed journals. However, rather than attempt to provide a balanced review of all the diverse and often conflicting data that compose the messy business of scientific progress, he engages in “cherry picking” the articles that agree with his point of view. He often takes facts out of context. He is engaged in the business of convincing people of his point of view rather than of objectively presenting facts. I would compare his articles to the term papers of a mediocre college student who combs the literature looking for footnotes that seem to validate his point of view, all the while ignoring facts that would disprove it. I don’t know whether this speaks more to the abysmal state of education in the U.S. or to the mendacity of the Dr. Mercola’s of the world. At higher levels of education, the expectation is that the writer will review all the relevant literature and present a synthesis of that information rather than cherry pick only the data he likes.
      Any article on medicine or science needs to be approached with the idea of first weeding out articles whose sole purpose is to convince people of any given point of view. Any decent research publication starts with an introduction in which all the relevant literature is reviewed and finishes with a conclusion in which the data is presented in the context of what is known and what is disputable. Beware of any site that tries to convince you that they have a corner on the market where truth is concerned.
      A good example of that is junkscience.com. When tobacco companies realized that the EPA was going to release some damning data about the harm of second hand smoke, they paid an enterprising young man to start a website to create confusion about the facts the EPA was releasing. The end result was junkscience.com, at first financed mainly by Phillip Morris. As more and more businesses realized the power of the internet to spread (mis)information, junkscience.com collected other sponsors, most notably big oil. Their articles are excellent examples of substituting rhetoric for fact in scientific debates.
      If you are serious about a website that presents medical facts for the layperson, try health.nih.gov. There are many other legitimate sites, many associated with foundations or groups that support people with different medical conditions. You can usually recognize these sites because they freely discuss controversies in their area of interest, trying to present all the relevant data and attempting to help the reader assimilate the information that is available.

    • jumping
      • K G Rao

        Dear Jumping,
        Thanks for the two links. Will check them out by and by. The URLs are similar but different in detail, so I presume they are two differentweb-sites. While on this, may I also ask for yr opinion on, if I have it right, HSI or Health Sciences Institute, which propagates some outrageously provocative news/discoveries, and Frank Mangano, who propagates natural solutions without a hard sell, just common senses.. Probably HSI is a front for a hard sell of natural supplements/curative products that comes appended to each newsletter, but, I keep thinking, no smoke without fire, which brings me to the following points:

        Historically, in many cases, I’m sure, today’s outrageous new theory is tomorrow’s std practice, and while peer review is all to the good, isn’t it sometimes slow and even perhaps unwilling to accept new developments. How do u, as a professional, sift the wheat from the chaff, and how are we as laymen to do it?
        The two web-sites u suggested are both seemingly part of Govt. While I have nothing against Govt per se, isn’t a non-govt point of view essential to maintain a balance?
        To me, as an interested layman, an example of my para-1 above is the debate on statins that seems to be all over the net. The ant-statin voices seem to make a great deal of sense. Would u agree? As a hi-chol person myself, I have a personal interest in this, and find myself leaning towards the anti-stain pro-COQ10 view which says inflammation is far better indicator than chol. This is reinforced by the fact that the pro-statin forces dont seem to be willing to engage in a debate. If I am right it means there is some truth in the FDA-Big.Pharma conspiracy theories, and if they’re colluding in one area, how many more under the carpet?

        I know I’m taking a lot of yr time, but would be grateful for yr views.

  • jumping

    That link from Lancet concerning inflammatory markers and statins doesn’t work with the way that this blog truncates links. Try doing this one as a cut and paste and removing the spaces before journals.
    http://www.thelancet.com/ journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(09)60447-5/fulltext

    • jumping

      Look on the right side of that Lancet article if you have doubts about the diversity of opinions and freedom of expression in medicine. (in the correspondence section.)

  • K G Rao

    Jumping,
    Saw your post about the link from Lancet. It worked and have seen a summary of the Jupiter project report. Was it meant for me, or a reply to one somewhere up the line in this blog. Didn’t see any earlier reference to Lancet from u, so am puzzled.

    • jumping

      K G,
      Was for you.

      • jumping

        look in my response to your question of 6/13, The link was first mentioned there but appeared in a truncated form that didn’t work.

  • K G Rao

    Thanks, Jumping.
    So you’re saying that for a non-govt. point of view one should go to reputed medical journals like Lancet, all of which are, I’m sure available online. Point taken, and as a matter of fact, I’d always thought that these journals would be too abstruse for laymen like me. Seeing it now after you pointed me in that direction, I seem to be mistaken about Lancet at least, as it seems to be quite readable for a layman (referring to the free content, perhaps the paid content contains the hi-tech research papers?). Could u suggest one other such, knowing from from our interaction the kind of stuff that would appeal. maybe the new England Journal which I’ve only heard/read about so far?
    You didn’t say anything about HSI. Are they crassly commercialised quacks, or just professionals who are only interested in developing and pushing products?

  • jumping

    K G Rao,
    My interest is in pediatrics and I subscribe to several commercial services that abstract articles from many different journals in that field. I then order the ones that look promising to read in their entirety. I also have an arrangement with a local medical library. They fax me the table of contents of various journals that I pick yearly and I can order the articles I want. I would be hard pressed to think of a single source or two that I would consider adequate even within my limited field. The NIH, despite being a government agency, maintains a free worldwide database at the site to which I gave you a reference. It includes references and abstracts to all published articles. They also have summaries of a variety of different health issues which are usually objective (they even have a bureau of CAM, which has funding for studies of CAM therapies, although it suffers from a lack of applications for that funding.)
    Lancet and New England Journal of Medicine are two journals that carry articles from all fields. However, without the commentaries (Often from researchers with differing points of view) and the correspondence, they are less useful. They frequently address controversial subjects. Right now the biggest debate in NEJM is about health care reform.
    Finally, I thought you might find this article interesting:
    http://www.annals.org/cgi/content/abstract/150/12/830
    It is from a journal called Annals of Internal Medicine and has an abstract of a small study on using red yeast rice in place of statins. The data looks promising. Much information is still needed, but at least it is a start. Whether it will go the way of many other promising starts and fizzle out remains to be seen. Unlike the impression that many CAM practioners and newsletters would like to give you, allopathic medicine is interested in alternative therapies. Being inherently conservative when it comes to our patients health however, we want data, not just theories such as Dr. Mercola loves to present. This dichotomy is one that everyone has to answer for themselves. Are data driven decisions derived from the study of many different individuals more valid than unsubstantiated remedies applied thoughtfully (or not) to individual patients after hopefully thorough study of the individual and his/her needs? Unfortunately, the history of health care is full of well intentioned treatments that appeared to make sense, but later turned out not to work. At best, these were a diversion of much needed resources. At worst, they caused grave harm themselves. The field of dietary supplements is an especially difficult one to obtain good information about. Most of the articles are not studies, but rather a compendium of wishful thinking with a an occasional reference to a few small studies such as the one I referenced above. They are authored with people who have no interest in presenting any facts except the ones that support their version of the truth. You will not find any editorial comment pointing out the short comings of the article nor any correspondents from other practitioners who disagree with the article. You decide which is best.

    • K G Rao

      Thank you, Jumping, for a very detailed reply indeed. I’ll take it from there, and in my capacity as an interested laymen, just try to keep abreast of the latest, with, I must say, a lot of help from you. One final Q, if I may. I presume u hv looked at the web-site of The International Newtork of Cholesterol Sceptics. Where do u, as a doctor, stand on this issue. I know a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, but from all I’ve read I’m veering to the view that inflammation level, rather than cholesterol, is a better marker of potential CVD. And, as I mentioned earlier, I’m personally involved. Any views/

  • jumping

    K G Rao,
    I don’t think there is enough known about either inflammatory markers or cholesterol, except in the extreme instances, to use either of them as predictors of heart disease. Most heart attacks happen in people with no known risk factors. Granted, if your cholesterol is extremely high (over 300?) and you have a family history of premature coronary artery disease, I would worry. Same for inflammatory markers. It is a science in evolution. Much like breast cancer before mammograms. Most breast cancer occured in people without any known risk factors (other than being female.) It was only with the advent of mammograms that any degree of accuracy was obtained with screening. My suggestion is that unless either your cholesterol or your inflammatory markers are extremely elevated, get an ultrasound of your carotid artery. If you have plaques, then worry about it. If not, eat well, exercise a lot, and don’t give it another thought. That is where I am. Cholesterol a little high, no real family history, and a completely normal carotid ultrasound. Since I have no signs of atherosclerosis and I am over 50, I am not worried about my slight cholesterol elevatation nor do I plan on getting an inflammatory marker. I do watch my blood pressure.

    • jumping

      I don’t know if that makes me a skeptic or not. There are people who are homozygous for hyperlipidemia type 4 who have alarmingly high cholesterols (over 500 in some cases.) It would be foolish not to treat them with lipid lowering meds. For most of us though, trying to change our future by concentrating on our cholesterol or our inflammatory markers is much like our ancient ancestors making sacrifices to the gods of fertility for a good crop: It gives us an illusion of control over the unknown.

      • K G Rao

        When you mention chol figures of 300 (not requiring treatment) and 500+ (requires treatment0, are we talking of total chol or just LDL?

  • jumping

    K G Rao,
    I actually gave two figures, one of 300, one of 500, both referring to markedly elevated LDL cholesterol. LDL cholesterol is the “bad” cholesterol. The point I was trying to make wasn’t to give an arbitrary cutoff, but to say that unless your LDL cholesterol was markedly elevated, I would be more concerned about the state of your carotid arteries as seen on ultrasound. You can actually see plaques forming in the arteries of people with arterial disease. I would be more worried about someone with a “normal” LDL cholesterol and plaques in the carotid artery than someone with a “high” cholesterol and no intimal plaques. I guess the real question is how high would your LDL cholesterol need to be before I was concerned about it as an independent risk factor. To be honest, I don’t have a set cutoff. Generally people who are homozygous for the more common forms of hypercholesterolemia have outrageously high LDL cholesterol levels and terrible family histories of early heart disease. Those people, I would probably treat regardless of the state of their carotid arteries. Otherwise, I think getting an ultrasound of your carotid artery is the most sensible thing you can do if you are worried about your cholesterol. That probably makes me a bit of a heretic, but I know a fair number of doctors who feel the same way. The other extreme is to treat even people with “normal” cholesterol levels over a certain age on the theory that most heart attacks are poorly predicted by known risk factors and lowering cholesterol is always a good thing to do. Time will tell who is right.

  • s c

    If these nation-destroyers get ‘universal health care,’ death may be a preferred option. The same people who preach compassion gleefully practice murder (abortion). Since they do not care about babies, senior citizens are next. Eventually, the ‘fittest’ will have to be sifted out. At some point, that will leave the ‘cream.’ Then, after all the carnage, maybe some of them will understand what they have wrought in the name of ‘change.’ This battle between good and evil will end. This is not simply politics. This is not just a ‘divine right’ of false elites to rule. This IS good vs. evil. For those who get it, your faith will sustain you. For those who never got it, enjoy it – temporarily. Nothing made by humans lasts forever. Nations rise and fall. Flesh rots. Only spirit is eternal.

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