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GOP Senators Say They Won’t Vote Until Tax Cuts Are Resolved

December 3, 2010 by  

GOP Senators say they won't vote until tax cuts are resolvedSenate Republicans have vowed to block all legislative action during the lame-duck congressional session until the George W. Bush-era tax cuts are extended for all Americans.

According to CNN, all 42 Senate Republicans have signed a letter to Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid (D-Nev.) that pledges the party's abstention from all voting until the Federal government's budget and the nation's tax rates are decided. The GOP supports the extension of tax breaks for all Americans, which are set to expire on Dec. 31.

"While there are other items that might ultimately be worthy of the Senate's attention, we cannot agree to prioritize any matters above the critical issues of funding the government and preventing a job-killing tax hike," the letter reads, quoted by the news provider.

President Barack Obama and many Democrats want the Bush-era cuts to be extended for all taxpayers, except for those families earning more than $250,000 per year. Left-leaning politicians have argued that approximately $700 billion would be lost if tax cuts are extended for the wealthiest Americans.

Republicans believe that failure to extend tax breaks for every income bracket would stifle an already-sluggish economy and hurt small businesses.

Reuters reports that Obama has asked Treasury Secretary Tim Geithner and budget director Jack Dew to work with congressional leaders from both parties in order to reach a compromise and help prevent tax increases in 2011. Discussions were set to commence on Dec. 1. 

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  • http://none Mike

    Wake up people this is your money they are fighting over. But yet both sides are talking like its theirs to begin with and who thinks its the best way to steal it oops I mean spend it. More politicians politisizeing while the people suffer. Extend them for now untill H.R 25 is passed then get your dam hands out of our pockets. They are about empty as it is. Mike L.

    • Kenny

      Congress has been stealing, (borrowing, their words) from those whom they are supposed to be serving. A good example is the now definct Social Security Fund, from which they also “borrowed” but never offered a repayment schedule, which, of course, will never come and was never intended. Why should we expect them to change their greedy policies???

    • Dan az
      • http://none Mike

        Dan, Yea pretty much every word of that speach cold be tagged as hot air now lol. Yea I hope that there are enough people out there that understand the video. Mike L.

    • JC

      Richard Daughty on the Economy and Government Policy:

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-pLwuq4hx60

      Peter Schiff on the Economy and Government Policy:

      http://www.europac.net/media/video_blog

      Anyone who think Quantitative Easing or Stimulus are doing anything but killing us … has to be an idiot.

      • http://none Mike

        Jc, Yea they pretty much both nail it. But they have an agenda as well both would be more than happy to see gold, silver and commadities rise. Because more than likely they are heavily invested in these. We need answers that would apply to the working class that are now at the point of breaking due to false inflation and flat job markets. The avarage person out there now is so cash strapped that it would be hard to impossible to find the extra money to invest in these markets.Mike L.

    • Dan az

      mike
      The thing that we should be doing is changing the way we pay our taxes that would benefit everyone and create jobs to boot if all of us demanded that this take place then I feel that our nation could move forward.Advantages of Flat Tax
      The aim of implementing a flat tax regimen is to make people pay a single tax rate. This would encourage people to pay taxes as there would be no differences in the rates applicable. Today, an individual earning more pays more and if the taxing system is changed to flat tax, it would encourage individuals to be more productive. A point to note here, exemptions are provided for people whose income is lower than a certain limit.

      All forms of double taxation are removed if a flat tax system is followed. Taxes on dividends and capital gains are removed as they are incomes which after being taxed are again taxed. If these are removed, it would encourage people to invest thereby creating more jobs. Read more on self employment tax deductions.

      Filing for flat taxes would become easy and fair. As per records, taxpayers spend more hours every year filing income tax returns. The time spent to find exemptions and loopholes is wasted and can as well be used on productive activities. Yes, no doubt the rich can spend a lot of money on hiring lawyers and accountants to evade taxes, but this money can as well be spent on investing somewhere else so that it generates more revenue for the country. Moreover tax evasions would be unlikely due to the lowered taxes.

      As per the plan proposed, there would no difference in the rates between individuals and corporations, thereby removing loopholes which may be gained if you change the status of business. A lower rate of taxes would attract corporations from different countries and set up bases in the country, resulting in increase in the revenue for the country. Read more on how to calculate tax liability.

      • http://none Mike

        Dan, I understand where you are comming from. But here is where I differ in opinion. Any rework of the tax system that does not abolish the I.R.S is going to be subject to manipulation eventually.
        I know as much as it has been demonised its hard to swallow but H.R 25(the fair tax) is actually our best hope of returning financial freedom to the people of the united states. This tax (national sales tax)returns the power of the purse strings to we the people.It goes hand in hand with the repeal of the 16th amendment.This amendment has never been ratified to begin with and with enough support could be nullified.

        There are other countries out there that have implimented this tax system and their economies have started to recover. Specifically the top 7 on that list you had me look at that one day a few weeks ago. Even with the world econimes that are like ours and struggeling. Theirs are booming.

        With the implementation of the fair tax we would have an influx of buisness again here in the states. If they knew they would not face a confiscatory tax system like we have now.Once again returning us to the status of a world power. These buisnes’es have fled our tax system since the 80′s if we care to look back that far. Mike L.

  • pericone

    It is this way the more money they take from us the more loss of freedom

  • David

    The Bush administration put a sunset clause on the tax cuts, because Bush’s advisers knew the cuts would inevitably lead to unsustainable deficits. The cuts did, of course, contribute greatly to the current deficit, and now the Republicans promise to not do anything until the very wealthiest Americans most able to pay taxes get to keep their ill-gotten and ill-advised tax breaks. Sweet!

    • Robin from Arcadia, IN

      David… Then you must be all for the Fair Tax. Contact your representatives and get them on board!

    • TIME

      David,

      If you have ZERO, and you get ZERO, what number is higher?

      • Bob Wire

        +0

        • TIME

          No Bob, ZERO + Zero = 0

    • Karolyn

      I remember when Bush instituted the cuts. At the time I was thinking, “WTF? Is he nuts?”

      • Bob Wire

        yea , I remember this one guy, he was so happy he race out and bought a TV from Walmart with 50.00 factory rebate. It was a big screen but it was a larger then he had.

        • Christin

          Bob Wire and Karolyn,

          Not all Americans are stupid sheeple.

          If you didn’t get a rebate, maybe you didn’t put anything in to the system.

          We used the Bush tax rebate to pay for a car trip to Florida to visit my parents and brother. I have only seen them three times (and it’d been about 15 years since I saw my brother) since I married 14 1/2 years ago. My two young sons loved spending time with their granparents and it will be a memory they will never forget. My dad is in his 80′s and says they are too old to drive that far and are not willing to fly with the TSA radiation scanners and sexual gropings.

          It’s time all Americans got away from unnecessary materialism and back to having more meaningful lives making relationships with people instead of valueing things.

        • Karolyn

          Christin, I was not talking about the rebates. I’m talking about the tax cuts. And, no, I didn’t get a rebate because I was not formally working at the time and didn’t file income tax.

          • http://?? Joe H.

            karolyn,
            If you had an idea of what you were talking about you would know they came hand in hand!!! the cuts gave all middle income tax payors a rebate. I and my wife got one and bought a new fridge with it!!! A three door kenmore!!!

    • Bruce D.

      People should not be promoting class warfare and greed. We need to restrict how much money government can spend. The more money they have to spend the more power they have over us. It also gives them the power to buy votes. A husband and wife who make $80,000 a year together will have an extra $5oo a month taken out of their pay, so the tax cuts were not just for the rich. The rich pay more than 50% of their earnings in taxes on the federal, state, and local level. The left should not be lusting after other peoples money. You do not create wealth by dividing it up. You create lasiness and poverty.

      • Delores Smith

        BRUCE,
        I agree with you.
        Delores Smith
        Delores109@cox.net

      • Christin

        Bruce D,
        So right!

        God only asks for 10%, but the gov’t demands more (35%…depending on your tax bracket). The high taxes and our horrible IRS Tax Codes are out right thievery.
        Congress NEEDS to SPEND LESS, then taxes WOULD be less… common sense.

        Provide for yourself and your family, help and give to others when you can, and quit living high off the hog… it only leads to… what we have now… live with in your means.

        It is what is in your heart that is valued by God, not what is on the outside or what STUFF you have in your posession.

        If you are pleasing God it doesn’t matter who you are displeasing, and if you are displeasing God it doesn’t matter who you are pleasing.

      • Mick

        Bruce D. says:
        December 3, 2010 at 8:21 am
        People should not be promoting class warfare and greed. We need to restrict how much money government can spend. The more money they have to spend the more power they have over us. It also gives them the power to buy votes. A husband and wife who make $80,000 a year together will have an extra $5oo a month taken out of their pay, so the tax cuts were not just for the rich. The rich pay more than 50% of their earnings in taxes on the federal, state, and local level. The left should not be lusting after other peoples money. You do not create wealth by dividing it up. You create lasiness and poverty.
        *************************************
        **************************************

        YOU GOT IT Bruce D.
        INSTEAD OF ENCOURAGING THE LESS FORTUNATE TO STAY MEDIOCRE BY CONTINUOUSLY PAYING THEM OFF WHY NOT SHOW THEM HOW SATISFYING IT IS TO ACCOMPLISH SOMETHING FOR THEMSELVES AND THE ONLY WAY TO DO THAT WOULD BE TO FORCE THEM TO TAKE A JOB AND REWARD THEM FOR A JOB WELL DONE OR LET THEM SOAK IN THEIR OWN JUICE IF THEY DON’T EVEN ATTEMPT TO DO WELL..
        MERIT RAISES ARE A MUCH BETTER INCENTIVE THAN AUTOMATIC PROMOTIONS.

        • http://?? Joe H.

          Mick,
          AMEN brother!!! Merit raises are much better inducements than “well even if I siit around and do nothing I’ll get a raise”!!

        • Kinetic1

          Posts like this seem to make a lot of sense, until you hear that Walmart, not exactly your top tier employer is getting 4 applicants for every job posted. Take a look around and you’ll see job openings with even more people fighting for a chance to work. Just look at the headlines;
          “Target, Macy’s, Walmart: More Than Four Applicants for Every Holiday Opening”
          “Teachers facing tough test: too many applicants, too few jobs.”
          “We’re getting well over 100 applicants for any position we post,”

          And it’s not just the lack of jobs relative to the number of jobless. when Emirates Airlines held jobs fairs in cities like Miami and Houston, only about 50 people showed up. It’s not that people are not willing to work, they just don’t want to move to Dubai. There are also cases of openings that require such a huge pay cut that taking the job would mean losing the house. Some people seem to think that it’s just part of life, and you should take what you can, no matter the loss. I’m not on unemployment, but if I were and I had to accept less per month, plus add on transportation to get to the job, I’d have to say no thanks. It’s not that I wouldn’t want to work, but if I lost my house it would cast me MORE than my current house payment to find a rental! Besides, unemployment payments are not welfare, they’re part of our nation’s unemployment insurance system.

          While it’s true that normal insurance doesn’t get extended like this, our nation is in need. If you stop providing help to those who have lost their jobs, things will only get worse. Some may take jobs that pay them less, but as noted above, there are not enough to go around. Welfare numbers will swell, and businesses will suffer as fewer and fewer people can afford to shop for even the bare minimums. As businesses suffer, more people will lose their jobs, so more will lose their homes and be placed the welfare roles. And giving tax breaks to the rich won’t help either. There’s plenty of talk about the wealthy providing jobs, but they didn’t get wealthy by hiring more people when sales are down. It’s not good business sense. Better to hold onto that money to expand when things are better.

          • http://?? Joe H.

            Then get rid of 33 million illegals, seal the border and the jobs might start opening up!!!!

          • http://S03992628 alpha-lemming

            Well said…. No.. people won’t work for less (than previously earning OR the welfare… er ah unemployment stipend). Just one more argument verifying the social “safety net” has become a hammock.

      • who cares

        What are you saying? you got to be kidding a rich person who earns one million dollars is paying over 50% of he’s or her’s income. It would mean they would have to pay over five hundred thousand dollars a year. If any of dummies believe what Bruce, is saying you guys have every right to vote republican. As of now they only pay TEN to TWELVE percent of their yearly income ,while you pay 33% to 36%. YOU dummies pay their taxes. The Bush tax cut meant that while he was president the wealthy would not have pay taxes. in turned you paid theirs, and YOURS!!!!!!

        • Bruce D.

          You should reread what I said as you did not understand. I said federal, state, and local. A $5 million home on the west coast of Florida can cost you $75,000 a year in taxes. A hefty sum to live in your own home. Government needs to be brought under control and you need to stop lusting after other peoples money. It is not a healthy frame of mind. Wake up and ‘start caring’.

          • Kinetic1

            So Bruce, what you are saying is that this region of Florida has a 1.5% property tax, correct? Now if it’s like most regions, this tax pays for their schools, Fire, Police, road maintenance, etc. Do you really think that is too much to pay for those services? What would it cost you if you had to pay for each of these services “a le carte”?

            If you want to live in $5 million dollar opulence, that’s the price you have to pay. Others, like my mother in law in Florida own modest homes with a price tag millions of dollars less, say $250,000, so she’ll pay around $3,500.00 a year for those services. Sounds reasonable for the quality of life it provides, but I suppose we could cut back on the number of cops and fire fighters, maybe cram more kids into a class room to save money for someone with a $5 million dollar home who’s complaining about the cost of owning a home that fewer than 1 percent of Americans could even begin to think of owning. And people wonder why the majority of Americans are not in favor of extending the tax cuts for the top 2%.

          • Bruce D.

            Kenetic1 what I don’t want to say is that self rightous people like you should pay more in taxes on a voluntary basis but I can’t help myself. The Federal income tax form allows you to do that with no problem. What’s the chance of that though.

          • Kinetic1

            Bruce,
            My family has done well and we don’t complain about our tax rate. My son asked me about the health care issue just the other day and I’ll tell you what I told him. We pay about $10,000 a year for health insurance. If the government wanted to take every cent of that and use it to provide universal health care, I’d be fine with that. If by allowing the government to avoid the costs related to providing for profit care did not save me a penny, but allowed those less fortunate to have preventative care as well, then I would consider it worth every cent.

            By the by, before writing I took a look at Florida property and looked at homes in the million plus range. 1.3 will get you a 7100 sq. foot home on a half acre. You’ll get a pool, a theater, a dock, and tampa bay views. 4.95 will get you 7000 sq. feet in A PRIVATE GUARD GATED ISLAND IN AVENTURA! How about an elevator, 2 laundry rooms, indoor and outdoor kitchens, waterfront property, etc. and your taxes would be, now get this $10,600 a year. So I think I’m being more than reasonable when I refer to a 5 Million dollar home as opulent and anyone complaining about the taxes on it as self indulgent.

          • Bruce D.

            My friend worked as a carpenter for the man and I do not know if he complained about it. What I am saying is that $75,000 a year to live in your own house is a hefty sum and people should not be saying the rich do not pay taxes. You can do what you want with your money but you should not be trying to tell others what to do with theirs.

          • Dan az

            Deregulating health care

            Whenever an industry becomes mired in special-interest rules, deregulation is the answer. It is a healing process that many industries periodically need. America “deregulated” trucking, airlines, the phone system, and power generation. In every case, dire predictions of chaos did not come true and the public benefited greatly. Power deregulation has also been very successful. What failed in California was not deregulation but simply another form of regulation.

            Private regulation of health care is not new. For her first 120 years, America had a true free-market health-care system free of government interference. Herbalists, hydrotherapists, nature-cure practitioners, allopaths or drug doctors, homeopaths, Native American healers, religious healers, osteopaths, and others offered services and competed with one another. Each had its own schools, clinics, and hospitals. I was born in a formerly homeopathic hospital in New York City. There were few licensing laws, so no group had a legal advantage. Whoever helped people the most prospered. Competition between many kinds of practitioners kept prices low — people paid for exactly what they wanted. Our health statistics ranked first in the world. Today America’s worldwide rank in many health-care areas ranges from 19 to 22.

            Deregulation in health care would have to be a two-part affair of (1) eliminating government regulation and government involvement; and (2) eliminating the control of the medical cartel. Obviously, this would not be easy to accomplish because (1) the welfare-state concept, which Americans embraced in the 20th century, entails a government “safety net”; and (2) the medical cartel has been in charge for more than 100 years and most people are unaware of the way it controls the system

    • bp

      David; “ill-gotten”?! I know of no wealthy American who has not worked hard for their money. “ill-advised tax breaks” are given to those who pay NO TAXES & often go home with extra poor-mans’ credits! May I suggest a standard rate of, say, 10%, that would be FAIR.

      • eddie47d

        Joe Nachio and Angelo Mozilo for starters! Don’t kid yourself there are plenty.

        • Bruce D.

          Who?????

          • JeffH

            Bruce D., just ignore eddie, he’s got this hate thing about CEO’s and corporations…crooked or not…

          • eddie47d

            Nachio and Mizilo are both in prison so it’s pretty easy to figure out which side you are on. You will say anything to take a snipe, you gullible old fool.

          • JeffH

            Hey eddie…which side did you get out of my comment?…remember I said…”crooked or not”. You have an inbred hatred for corporations and CEO’s, you fool, whether they are “crooked or not”!

            What part of my comment indicated I didn’t know they were in jail or that I supported corporations?

            Like every other time you’re called on the carpet, I’ll not see a reply, let alone an honest one.

          • http://?? Joe H.

            CHIRP, CHIRP, CHIRP!!!!! (crickets eddduuuuhhhh!!!!)

          • eddie47d

            It just proves how little you know and your replies are always of the smart azz kind. That’s how your “conservative”??? mind works and always has. I see you have Joe with his nose up your butt saying the usual nothing. So much intelligence all in one package!

          • JeffH

            fast eddie, cute reply…really addressed the question didn’t you, complete with your potty mouth! At least you’ve stopped with your “man in a dress” fetish!

            Stupid is as stupid does…in your case.

          • http://?? Joe H.

            JeffH,
            And he can’t even come up with anything original either!!! I’ve been telling him for months that if any of the other progressives here made a quick stop that they and eddduuuhhh would need surgery to remove his nose from their azz!!!

          • JeffH

            JoeH, I hear ya. They don’t come much “dopier” than steady eddie.

        • Bruce D.

          EddieD corporations do not pay taxes they pass the cost on to the consumer. If they cannot pass the tax onto the consumer they move their business out of the country. Really you should know that. Many businesses in NJ and CA have moved to Texas. Some move to Mexico and other places. The lefts war on business makes absolutely no sense. You should stop lusting after other peoples money and work with republicans to create a healthy enviroment for business to grow. When businesses hire they create new taxpayers. We need to create new wealth, not divide what is there among us. That will only lead to an impoverished nation.

          • eddie47d

            You are somewhat correct and there are businesses who have a tough time surviving. Some of it has to do with their fellow competitors and the weekly coupons and low ball sales. I’ve seen plenty of stores who offered a good product at a fair price. Then someone comes along with a boatload of Chinese goods and the store collapses. That has been repeated numerous times in our country. The store owners become wealthy but pay lower wages which drives the economy down. It may heat up the Chinese economy but ours suffers. The same thing can be said about workers who get paid too much for the job they do and then they wonder why the company folds. Too much greed and selfishness on the part of workers and owners. So it’s not about envy of others but what these companies do to each other and to themselves. It all seems so avoidable and we consider ourselves a “wise and educated ” nation. That is why I like to poke those CEO’s in the eye and a good chunk of them deserve it.

          • Bruce D.

            I am beginning to see that with you eddie47 it is never going to be about high taxes and government abuse of power. Maybe your kind in the end will win out but for a brief time in history people have rejected government growth and power. It is alway harder to maintain principles of freedom than it is to become prey to the lure social slavery. Social slavery is a natural tendency for many.

    • http://www.philippinetreasure.com everett

      David,
      for the record,you are “ill” informed. the highest income earners are still paying the highest % amounts of taxes in amounts and % of income.

      its the governements (local & national) which is getting the ill gotten booties (yours moneys/income)…. but people like you voted for that, so your blaim.

      as for me, i am below poverty level right now, perhaps poor self planning and theiving financial scammers and jobless.

      similarly, the first several pilgrim’s thanks giving parties were followed with disease, starvation and death over the winters … until they threw off the yolk of mandatory communalism (true democracy eventually grows (voted) into the same, communism).

      best not allow goverments steal so much the fruits of anyones labor.

      • David

        Everett:

        While you and I might disagree about the proper level of income taxation, I am not ill-informed – I do know that people with higher incomes pay a higher rate of taxes on their taxable income and higher amounts of taxes on their taxable incomes. I also know that many high-income earners pay a lower payroll tax than many middle-income earners, because income over $106,000 per year is exempt from Social Security taxes.

        • Michael J.

          David,
          The sunset clause in the Bush tax cuts was not because Bush economist warned it would lead to unsustainable debt. It was instead at the behest of Democrats who threatened to withold support without it’s inclusion.

          Now, ten years hence and after volumes of left wing economist reports such as Paul Krugman’s forecast of financial armegedon, Democrats have done a 180 degree about face and have agreed at least in part to extend. What happened? Does that mean that Krugman’s work is all now trashcan material, or was it from the start?

          Obama has signed on saying that everyone will get an extension except earnings over 250K, which is as close as you will get to an endorsement of the effectiveness of the Bush tax cuts that you will get from him.

          Nancy Pelosi has said publicly that the Bush tax cut extension to all earners under 250K will stimulate the economy and put people back to work. What is happening to the Democrats? Are they experiencing post tramatic stress disorder? Is this a delayed reaction to the ground shaking under their feet last November 2nd?

          And if extending tax cuts is the right move now, how come it was out of the question just a month ago?

          • poysunivy

            Michael J.,

            We have learned from experience over the years that democrats are not smart people. Proof positive is that they were flummoxed by an inexperienced fraud’s rhetoric to vote him to lead this country into a downward spiral toward socialism/communism. We did not want this and WILL NOT accept this. More proof was the last election. Now, on to the next one to clean more trash out of Washington. As a talk show host just recently said, “OK, so you voted for Obama two years ago just to prove you were not a racist. Now who will you vote for next election to prove you are not an idiot?”

          • Kinetic1

            Michael J,
            You talk a good game, but face facts; there is no evidence suggesting that the Bush tax cuts created any jobs. In fact, even right wing economists have credited the ill timed cuts for driving the deficit through the roof. As for President Obama’s “tacit admission”, he simply recognizes that those in the middle class and lower are in on position to face any loss of income right now. Remember, while the top 2% of Americans were seeing 10% annual increases in income during the Bush years, the middle class was all but flat lined. Even if the tax breaks are allowed to end, the top 2% will still be paying far less, often half of what they would have in the ’30s, ’40s, ’50s, etc.

          • Kinetic1

            poysunivy,
            I suppose you want us to say Sarah Palin? A women who doesn’t know who our allies are or why North and South Korea are split? Maybe you can call on one of the right wing geniuses in Kentucky who offered up a museum that depicts men riding Dinosaurs?

          • Michael J.

            Kenetic1,
            Since you mentioned “Obama’s tacit admission’s” let’s review.

            Example #1 – Kerchner vs. Obama
            Obama and Congress filed their opposition brief in the Kerchner v. Obama & Congress lawsuit in the U.S. 3rd Circuit Court of Appeals in Philadelphia,PA. The roughly 20-page opposition brief was filed in response to Kerchner’s 115-page appeal. From Commander Kerchner:

            What a lame and empty defense. Basically they’re saying Obama and Congress can totally ignore the U.S. Constitution and there is nothing We the People can legally do about it. No one has standing to right the wrong when Obama & Congress illegally violate Article II of the Constitution and seat illegally an ineligible person as President and Commander in Chief of our vast military power. We the People created the federal government and We the People are going to fix this totally broken and runaway federal government. These Progressive/Socialist/Marxists have gone a bridge too far in the disgraceful and unconstitutional 2008 election. This will not stand. We the People will not permit it.

            On its face, the Department of Justice’s opposition brief looks like lazy lawyering–basically relying on “everyone else dismissed the case, you should too”, aka, ‘everyone else ignored the Constitution and so should you”. DOJ focused primarily on the issue of standing, arguing the same old lazy line that the plaintiffs did not prove a particularized injury and that the Court had no jurisdiction anyway. It is truly astounding: the Constitution protects individual liberty–individuals are harmed by an illegal President: their liberty, security and safety. DOJ says ‘so what, everyone is effected’, as if the Constitution does not matter. Lame indeed.

            It is also a slap in the face to Commander Kerchner, attorney Appuzzo, and all Americans for the DOJ to treat so cavalierly the Constitution for the United States of America. They didn’t respond to one charge, and by their tacit response, admitted their knowledge of Obama’s ineligibility and demonstrated their disrespect for the Constitution.

            Example #2 – Obama’s tacit admission to closing Guantanamo after it was a pillar of his presidential campaign speaks volumes. Bush has earned the right to say “I told you so” but because he is a true statesmen, you will never hear it from him.

            Tacit response example #3 – “ACORN Who?”
            I have to wonder if someone is being honest when they say that they aren’t paying attention to a major scandal centered around an organization they worked for, and with, their entire career — especially when Congress is cutting off all funds for that organization. So it is with President Obama and ACORN when he said yesterday, “You know, it’s — frankly, it’s not really something I’ve followed closely. I didn’t even know that ACORN was getting a whole lot of federal money.”

            The following is the transcript of an Obama video that has been removed from You-Tube for being an inconvienient truth:

            “When I ran project vote, the voter registration drive in Illinois, ACORN was smack dab in the middle of it. Once I was elected there wasn’t a campaign that ACORN worked on down in Springfield that I wasn’t right there with you. Since I have been in the United States Senate I’ve been always a partner with ACORN as well. I’ve been fighting with ACORN, along side ACORN, on issues you care about my entire career.” Barack Hussein Obama

            Example #4 – Both Obama and Pelosi recently publicly stated that extending Bush Tax cuts on earnings under 250K will create jobs and stimulate the economy.

            Conclusion – tacit admission = lie of omission

          • Kinetic1

            Example #1 – Kerchner vs. Obama
            Kerchner v. Obama & Congress is just another attempt to beat a dead horse. How many courts have to hear these claims before everyone is satisfied? How many government agents need to testify to President Obama’s birth place?

            Example #2 – Guantanamo is not a very good example. Bush may have found a way to hold suspected terrorists, but he also screwed up and locked up hundreds of innocent men. Unfortunately, years of
            detention and abuse tend to turn even innocent men into terrorists. So now we have to find places to send these men and everyone wants money for their trouble. Just like the war, if the Bush administration had handled this better it would not be such a problem now.

            Tacit response example #3 – “ACORN” “…especially when Congress is cutting off all funds for that organization.” And why did congress cut off their funding? Because FOX News spent day after day promoting falsified videos of “wrong doings” by ACORN. This was a hit piece and Congress fell for it.

            As for Obama’s failure to own up to his relationship with ACORN, I’d say it’s damage control. I don’t like it, and I think his people should have looked into the accusations a defended ACORN. Not a good mark on Obama.

            Example #4 – Both Obama and Pelosi recently publicly stated that extending Bush Tax cuts on earnings under 250K will create jobs and stimulate the economy. I have not seen this, but it stands to reason that those below 250k will continue to spend the money they keep, thus keeping the economy moving. It’s not an admission that the cuts were the right thing to do back in 2001, but that it would be harmful to end them in our current economy. It ‘s the same logic behind extending unemployment. If you continue to help support those who can not find work, they will spend every dollar they receive on food, clothing and housing. If you cut them off it will just increase the number of foreclosures and cripple even more businesses, while swelling the welfare roles.

            You know, what you have presented here reminds me of something I heard Rush saying the other day. He was talking about the White House’s claim that ending unemployment extensions could cost as many as 600 thousand jobs. It’s easy to grasp. As I said before, no money means no spending. No spending means businesses will suffer and either delay hiring or lay workers off. To hear Rush talk about it you’d think it was the most amazing claim ever. You know he’s paid to make Liberals look bad, so he’ll say what ever it takes, but even he seemed to be struggling to make this story sound preposterous. He pointed here and there and did his best to twist the logic of the findings, but in the end it was clear that his only goal was to make Obama and the Dems in congress look bad.

          • http://?? Joe H.

            Boundup1
            you must be a lousy worker!! My wife got raises each and every year of the Bush years! She has only gotten one since Nobummer took over!!!

          • Michael J.

            Kenetic!,
            Example #1 – Kerchner vs. Obama boils down to selective judification on the part of the DOJ and the Supremes.

            Example #2 – Guantanamo, as far as I am concerned, Gitmo would not now be an issue if it were not for the left’s politically correct rantings over rules of engagement. If allowed to prosecute the war WW11 style, most combatants encountered would have been eliminated on the spot. Those that were detained would have been interogated and held for trial without any Fondalike media hoopla.

            Example #3 – Acorn, the video for which I provided the transcript for exposes Obama as a ball face liar. Or maybe you havn’t seen the video in question? Go to blaze.com where it is still available.
            And exactly what video’s of Acorn were falsified by Fox, please elaborate.

            Example #4 – If you havn’t seen Obama and Pelosi(2 seperate video’s) caving to the effectiveness of the Bush tax cuts by endorsing their current extention, maybe it’s because Olbermann, Matthews and whatever other Obamedia you indulge in are too shamed to show you.

            P.S. I am glad to hear that you frequent Rush’s brodcast. I don’t follow his commentaries myself, but I do consider him a conservative in line with values I appreciate and share. I think he’s a consumate showman with a flare for sensationalism who also happens to be a genuine American Patriot.

    • Pat R

      Everyone who is disgusted with our Nation; please visit:
      www:republicoftheunitedstates.org

      There is a lot of “must know” information on this site. Read it all.
      You will learn what is really going on in DC. Unbelievable. Shocking
      to say the least!!

    • Leon

      David I wish you would cut the demonizing of the rich. you think that the rich never do anything for us. I am here to tell you you are wrong. Charity’s,hospitals,homeless shelters,research. A whole host of things depend on the rich. There are a few rich that don’t give ( a politician or two I am sure). There are evil rich and evil rich politicians as well. Jobs come from the rich not politicians. Tax the rich too much they just move and evade them. No matter how much money the politicians get from us they will always spend that and a little bit more! They are playing games with our countries security. the RINO’s will cave no spine there! I want them to quit taking our freedoms away. To commit to arms reduction with some country I don’t trust does not make any sense at all when there are other countries that are close to exploding. We need to stay as strong as we can!

      • http://?? Joe H.

        Leon,
        Very correct about the rich!!! Look at Denzel Washington. He donated a hospital wing for our troops coming back from the middle east that have been wounded!

    • Bleh

      “The Bush administration put a sunset clause on the tax cuts, because Bush’s advisers knew the cuts would inevitably lead to unsustainable deficits.”

      So naturally we are supposed to jump to the conclusion that we need to let the Tax cuts expire because of deficits?

      What utter and total nonsense.

      How about keep the tax cuts and CUT SPENDING.
      Only a moron spends what they do not have and immediately thinks the solution is to increase taxes.

    • Dan az

      David
      Think of it this way,if they spend more and more and have noway of replacing it then that would be called the deficit so they need more of our money to try and pay for what they have put on credit.You cant spend what you dont have and that is the just of it.Dont give them more like the schools do if they dont spend it they get less the next year.cut them off and what do they do they just print monopoly money and increase the deficit and devalue the money until its not worth anything.Smaller guvment means smaller taxes bigger guvment bigger taxes.If they cant figure that out then its time to stop giving them any taxes.If we where to have a flat tax of 10% there would be know need for the IRS and if the feds where held to the laws of the constitution they would not exist.When tax time comes around again then we should all give them an IOU just as they did with our money for the social security.When they pay it back then we could consider giving them there salaries back at a much reduced wage.The interest for for borrowing our money.

    • Ted Crawford

      Not true David. They were made temporary because the democrates would not vote for them otherwise. The republicans wanted them to be permenent from the beginning.
      Just for the record there have been 4 major tax cuts in America, one each under Coolidge, Kennedy, Reagan,and Bush(43). In each of these four cases the revenues to the government went UP not down! Taxes and the revenue they generate are inversly proportional to one another. The problem isn’t the tax rate it’s the spending rate!!

      • Bleh

        Well said, Ted.

  • Robin from Arcadia, IN

    Maybe the GOP is finally getting it. They are drawing a line in the sand and they need to stick to their guns. After the ‘new’ Congress gets in, they need to abolish the IRS and go to the Fair Tax, and audit the Fed. Anything that is ‘stupid’, needs to have the money dry up and be used in a more needed place that has merit. Pork spending has to stop!

    • Karolyn

      Are you serious? They don’t “need” to do anything; and it’ll be a cold day in hell when they abolish the IRS! It seems from what I have heard, all roads point to abolishing “earmarks.”

      • Christin

        Karolyn,

        Are YOU serious?
        Thanks to the FED, G. Soros, IRS tax codes, (Unions, Lobbists,) and out-of-control Congressional spending (of our TAX dolars) we are already living in a cold day in hell with a inflated devalued dollar and bankrupt America …soon to go the way of Greece (all by design, of course)!

        It was the REPUBLICANS in Congress (though I hate the demo-Repub verbal wars) who just put forth a BILL to STOP attaching Ear Marks ..aka Pork Spending… on Bills, but the Lame Duck Democrats voted it DOWN!

        Why Congressmen/women who lost their seat in the 2010 election are allowed to stay in office until the end of the year is beyond me.

        It appears it will be a cold day in hell when we get rid of earmarks in DC.

        • eddie47d

          It’s called a transition period for those coming in and those going out. Some votes aren’t calculated for weeks after the election so this inbetween period is needed for many reasons. Your one sided attack does show where you stand but you kind of left out the supporters of the Republican Party and how they influence elections and earmarks.

          • JeffH

            …another case of pot and kettle…

          • Christin

            eddie47d,
            I am not attacking. I am not for Dems or Reps… just for the Constitutional Conservative.

            I understand about the “transition period.” Maybe they should not conviene at all until Jan 2011 for those who have been voted for to take up the peoples’ business.

            Karolyn is off by saying ear marks will be gone (so far). The Dems voted it down in the lame duck session.

            But legislation was put forth during this lame duck session by Reps to STOP earmarks attached to bills in congress… give credit where credit is due.

          • Michael J.

            eddie47d,
            Transition period? Maybe under normal circumstances “transition period” is adequate terminology for the time between the election and the commencement of the next congress. But this time around more resembles a bad remake of “Dead Man Walking” with the largest loss of elected officials in 50 years for the Democrat party. This time would be better spent burying their dearly departed than voting. As a matter of fact, the only people that think that dead people are responsible voters is Acorn.

            But then again why even bother, what we are seeing now is just political showmanship in which the Democrat hoopmasters are keeping Republicans jumping through said hoops in an effort to run out the clock and then blame the GOP’ers for the inaction. Boehner should signal time-out and form a huddle to stop the clock. then after the huddle and the quick snap, go long with a Hail-Mary and win one for the Gipper.

            Speaking of “The Gipper”, something that seems to be missing from the minds and mouths of the newly elected conservatives is the “Line Item Veto”. Reagan never missed an opportunity to secure for the office of the presidency a line item veto. Even when ordering breakfast he might say, “I’ll have two eggs over easy, wheat toast, coffee and a LINE ITEM VETO.

            The Line Item Veto, which in itself would allow the for slashing of wasteful pork spending, would also allow for the weeding out of sleeper earmarks and down right unsupported legislation. Like when amnesty legislation is attached to bills intended support the troops. These two subjects are completely unrelated and should never be included in the same bill.

        • who cares

          Earmarks is money your state use to fix road, bridge’s, park, trade school’s very much like the money Sara Pilin, received for the bridge to no where. All of you are to Fu#6K$n dumb to vote any but republican. dumb asses

          • Bruce D.

            You should not be calling people names that could be used right back at you. Sarah Palin turned down the money for the Bridge to Nowhere as Governor of Alaska. If there are earmarks the money should be divided equally between the states according to their population. Earmarks in itself are a form of bribery. The gasoline tax is suppose to be paying for the roads. Three years back there was talk about cutting the gasoline tax as there was a surplus of money for roads. I am sure that ended up being used foolishly by one party or the other.

          • Kinetic1

            Bruce D.
            Give up on the Palin story . She accepted the money, used the “bridge to nowhere” when she saw it was good for her image, then kept the money, paved the road leading to the bridge and never built the bridge. As far as I’m concerned, what she did was worse than if she just stood up to criticism, built the bridge and defended the need. Remember, Alaska consistently falls into the top 5 recipients of Fed dollars. In 2005, Alaska was #3, receiving $1.84 for every dollar they paid the fed in taxes.

          • Bruce D.

            Kinetic1 it is no secret the left feel threatened by strong conservative woman. Get over it. If the Fed would allow the State of Alaska to start using some of their natural resources they would not be so dependant on government. It is the same same story over and over again from the left. Discourage business and encourage dependency.

          • eddie47d

            I’m not to sure about that Bruce. Alaska get’s all that money back from the Federal Government and then pays out hefty tax returns to it’s State’s citizens. Are they using the Nations(ours) money to do that?

          • Kinetic1

            As I understand it, taxes from the oil companies are paid out to the citizens as a reimbursement for the use of the state’s “natural resources.”

            As for “Strong Republican Women”, there have been many, but I wouldn’t count Palin among them. Granted, she is a brilliant populist and knows how to use her phony “folksy, down to earth” act, but she has proved to be very weak when it comes right down to it (as in her recent foreign policy gaffs.) What we don’t like about Palin is that she has al of you fooled. Here is a women who preaches about small government, but she needlessly increased the size of both governments she oversaw. She tell us about the need to reign in spending, but she entered Wasilla with a surplus and left them with a deficit.

            Maybe you want to throw out some others. How about Michele Bachman, Sharon Angle or Christine O’Donnell. You know, Bachman, who blamed Swine Flu on President Jimmy Carter, Angle who complains that reporters don’t “promote” her or tell the public just what she wants them to hear, and O’Donnell who … oh, where do you start with this “strong Republican”? Face it, all these women have been around for years, but it wasn’t until a group on the right went bat carp crazy that women (and men) as out there as O’Donnell were considered viable candidates.

          • Bruce D.

            Like I said Kinetic1 you need to get over your phobia of strong Conservative woman.

          • Kinetic1

            And you, Bruce need to learn what a strong women really looks like. Here’s a hint … aint a one in this bunch.

          • http://?? Joe H.

            Bruce
            and it sure isn’t boundup1 or P-lousy either!! (hint: We’ll have to pass the bill to see what’s in it!!!)

          • Michael J.

            Joe H.
            When Pelosi speakes of passing a bill, what she actually means is that she accidentally swallowed her last months plastic surgeon’s statement.

          • http://?? Joe H.

            MichaelJ.
            Most excellent!!!!! LOL!

    • Norm

      Robin from Arcadia, IN

      After January 2011 the Republicans still won’t have a majority in the Senate nor will they have the Presidency with its veto power.
      What they will have is enough power to stop all progress in getting anything done.
      During the Clinton years taxes were at pre Bush levels, the economy was strong, and we were close to or at a balanced budget.
      Ten years of tax cuts later we have a huge deficit, a severe recession, and a shrinking middle class.
      The very rich never had it so good. Some are actually embarrassed.
      Money talks and $hit walks!

      • stu

        I am tired of people talking about the Clinton years and the surplus we had. If that is the case how the heck coould the national debt have gone up?????????????? Lairs figure, firgures don’t lie.

        • bp

          Good one Stu; Liars figure & figures don’t lie. Love it!

        • marvin

          stu
          i have been saying the same thing,if and i said if [BIG WORD] clinton left a surplus then did bush spend 10 trillion dollars in 5 years the liberals took over congress in 06 the white house in 08 we went from a supposed surplus as far as the eye could see[a liberal reps word not mine]so now at 13 or 14 trillion dollars, don,t know bout liars and numbers but i know bout liberals making numbers lie,must be the new math two +two =3 or mabe two sets of differant object is two,that make my head hurt to just think about it,like one time i told a guy that he was charging 20% inst, he said no just 10% i wrote it down and showed him and he said but that is simple inst, bottom line i am a simple man but not simple minded

        • ValDM

          I’ve said this time and again: THERE WAS NO SURPLUS. The ‘surplus’ everyone wants to brag about just never was. The budget was never balanced during Bubba’s reign. The money that is so commonly referred to as ‘surplus’ was money that was in the budget but was never spent. Then the pols started crowing about a ‘surplus’. The ‘surplus’ and ‘balanced budget’ during the Clinton years is nothing but a myth and more political grandstanding. Go and research it yourselves.

          • JERRY

            ( SURPLUS ) IF I HAVE $20,000 IN THE BANK BUT I OWE $100,000 DOES THAT MEAN THAT I HAVE A SURPLUS BECAUSE I HAVE $20,000 IN THE BANK ???? PLEASE EXPLAIN THE SURPLUS !!!!

          • http://?? Joe H.

            ValDM,
            Actually it was like this. If all I have is one dollar, how do I pay a dollar here and a dollar there?? the surplus was money earmarked for payout to social security and just not yet paid!! He couldn’t spend it two places at once so it “APPEARED” to be a surplus when actually there was a slight deficit!!

        • LeRoyZ

          It’s not lower taxes that result in higher deficits. It’s the profligate spending!! It’s been shown time and time again that lower tax rates result in increased revenue to the Treasury, but what good does it do? Every time we get increased revenue, the pols just increase spending way over and above the added revenue. I’m not sure what the solution is, but giving more money to the gov’t certainly isn’t the answere. As someone said recently…”More is never enough for these clowns!”. We’ve somehow got to restrict these spendthrift tendencies.They’ve gotten our national debt to what I think are un-sustainable levels, and I really fear for our future.

        • who cares

          Bush spent, give away the money Clinton had left. let’s not forget two wars Bush started. There’s where the money went. Democrats never had control over anything. Your side would not let any demorats Bill’s to proceed. Obstructionist (Children)are at it again stoping the Government from proceeding if don’t have it their way. your side is the problem Not the Democrats

          • Bleh

            You are confused. Bush hated to Veto anything that Congress put forth. And yes from 2006 on it was Democrat controlled.
            Once again Clinton did not have a surplus.

            All information the following website uses to prove it can be verified via the US treasury website:
            http://www.craigsteiner.us/articles/16

            Enough about the Mythical Surplus.

        • Ted Crawford

          Stu, there was never a surplus! The phantom surplus was created with “creative accounting”, chief amongst that was the claiming of Social Security Taxes payed in, while ignoring the benifits payed out. With that type of accounting every President, with the notable exception of the current one, could have claimed a surplus!

      • Bruce D.

        Clinton took money from Social Security to help balance the budget. He was also ineffective in the war on terror which lead to 9/11 and a war with Afganistan. He also left Bush with a huge downturn in the economy which the tax cuts helped alleviate by stimulating business.

        • Norm

          Bruce D
          Every president since Johnson has stolen social security money. That includes Nixon, Ford, Reagan and and the Bushes. The Reagan and Bush tax cuts and huge military spending created jobs but caused huge deficits.

          • marvin

            Norm
            you said all presidents wrote iou to ss and tax cut from reagan help make the deficit,now help me here if that is so how did clinton who was president after reagan,leave a surplus as far as the eye could see for bush,did his 8 years as president some how heal the deficit,or is this just another smoke and mirrors from the liberals

          • Norm

            narvin
            Not only was the entire national deficit eliminated after RAISING TAXES on the wealthy in 1993, but the economy grew so fast for the remainder of the decade that many conservative economists thought that the Fed should raise the prime interest rate in order to slow it down.

            This is another of conservatives’ hidden agendas: they keep promising workers that if we cut taxes on the wealthy and the economy grows, their wages will go up. But when wages even start to go up—for whatever reason—conservatives do everything they can to slow down the economy. They never openly tell the public about the second part of their strategy when they discuss taxes, economic growth and wages.

          • Michael J.

            Norm,
            Clinton got a free ride on Reagan’s coat tails. By the time Clinton was inaugurated, Reagan’s trickle-down economics were in full swing. Nothing left for slick willie to do but kick back, put his feet up, order pizza, cigars and soil Monica’s dress.

          • Bleh

            There was no surplus Norm, nice try though. When you borrow you must pay it back. At no point did the national debt decrease. The only way to claim a real surplus is to decrease the national debt.

            Every year of Clinton’s administration the national debt increased.

            Using slight of hand to make the claim of surplus is something only a sheeple would buy into. We can clearly see through this illusion by simply watching the national debt go up…

          • http://?? Joe H.

            AB norm,
            Yes all the presidents have stolen from it but Klintoon not only stole from it, he put money already earmarked for payouts to balance his budget and by the time it went through GAO it was paid out to social security and could not be used to balance the budget, therefore NO BALANCED BUDGET!!! Wake the hell up azzhole!!

        • JeffH

          Bruce D., the facts are that Clinton never balanced any budget…he got close, but he never had any surplus.

          • Norm

            JeffH
            At least he plugged the bleeding artery left by Reagan.
            If you count the raid on SS he actually did balance the budget.
            Of all my 40+ working years, the Clinton years were the best from my perspective.
            The economy was healthy and for an Engineer jobs and wages were tops.

          • JeffH

            Normy, you’re just weak!

          • Ted Crawford

            Jeff, according to Artical 1, Section 7 of the Constitution NO President can balance the budget, whatever the economy is doing, good or bad, it is primarly the Speaker of the House that should recieve any credit or condemnation.

          • JeffH

            Ted, that’s wonderfull to know but it doesn’t really change the perception of the media, the public or those in DC…the POTUS will always be the one judged by everyone regarding the budget.

      • Robin from Arcadia, IN

        Norm… If they can slow down or stop the lunacy spending and at least make the attempt to get things on a track that would prevent the United States from imploding, I think they are making progress. The spending has been going on for years and years, and from what I can see, you really can’t point fingers at either party, except for the one who is in office now, because they are the ones who can make it better or worse…

        • Norm

          When a government is dependent upon bankers for money, they and not the leaders of the government control the situation, since the hand that gives is above the hand that takes. Money has no motherland; financiers are without patriotism and without decency; their sole object is gain.
          Napoleon Bonaparte

      • Troy

        Check this out. The biggest and most overlooked fact about the Clinton years is who controled the money and drafted the policies that balanced the budget. Who controls the money? The Republican controled house. Who controled policy? The Republican controled Senate. Why were they able to accomplish what Clinton get so much credit for, while fighting them the through the whole process. Because they forced him to. The only thing that Clinton did, besides Monica, was sign the document. He drafted nothing that made a difference. If you think that is not true then look at what has happened over the last couple of years with those in the majority moving things forward without the approval of those they govern. It only takes a blind person who will stand behind there party no matter what to not see the truth. Go Dem, Go Repub. I say forget them both and go with whoever is going to listen to the will of they majority of the people, whithin the laws of the constitution, and lets take power back from the Government. Smaller Federal Government and State Soverenty.

      • http://?? Joe H.

        Norm,
        Then start walkin!!!!!!!

    • HFlashman

      Well how de doo. The GOP votes to RAISE your taxes. The issue the GOP has decided to raise your taxes on is the Bush II giveaway to the Wealthy. Everybody would retain the margins they have up to the first $250,000 in income. Got that? Everyone, wealthy included. The dollar $250,001 and above are raised back to what they were during the Clinton Era. You remember that Era don’t you? Everybody had a job, the economy boomed, budget surplus, no war etc.

      So…for a very small segment of the taxpayers…$250,001 nd up would be raised. They’d enjoy the current rates up to that point. The GOP said nope….even though everyone would retain their status…if the wealthjy don’t receive special status that NO ONE ELSE ENJOYS…we pay more in taxes.

      Now as you whine and snivel about that special status that the GOP wants to give to the wealthy is thwarted…how many of you would say “if offerd, I would turn away making $250,001+/yr because I’d have to pay a higher rate for everything over 250G I’d make.” ?

      Wish I could gripe about having to pay that additional 3-4 % in tax hikes…

      So as you gripe, moan, snivel and are outraged about the wealthy having to pay their fair share …. even though they enjoy the same rates to $250,000 everyone else does … just remmber…the Democrats vote to LOWER your taxes…the GOP voted to RAISE your taxes.

      Ya’ proud?

      • Bruce D.

        Clinton had a false economy with the dot com businesses which were not producing products. They crashed and it created a huge recession a few short months after Bush took office. I find it very odd for you to claim that democrats lower taxes. You may be the only one in America who believes that.

        • HFlashman

          I know…and all the money you made during the .com bubble was flase as well. Jeesh…and the economy when Bush II was not diving when elected. Every economist was saying we would flat line for a few years and worst case scenario was a mild recession…until December when the then Pres. Elect Mr. Idiot/druggie/alky/AWOL stated quite clearly I’ve seen inside numbers and it’s worse than you think”….right before XMas … and you could watch minute by minute as Consumer Confidence dive like a rock and retail XMas sales immediately fell hard. It was amazing to see those numbers…Confidence and sale good…Bush II said his statement…it was like a cliff after that. He drove us into his first recession. You should ask yourself..why? Who made money by killing the economy back then?

          • Vigilant

            “Who made money by killing the economy back then?”

            “Killing the economy?” Much to your chagrin, I hate to report to you that the economy did not die, and Capitalism is still alive. It’s Obama & Co. who are really killing the economy, and who won’t be happy until they can beat a dead horse. 9.8% UNEMPLOYMENT. GET IT?

          • Leon

            Flash Here’s a flash Bush has not been in control for 4 yrs now the dems took over in 06. If there were any intelligence since 06 it would have improved by now!

          • http://?? Joe H.

            flushedman,
            and nobummer took coke as a kid. rumor even has it he dealt it!
            BTW, Back up your claim that Bush went AWOL with some FACT!!! Bet you WON’T cause you CAN’T!!!

      • bp

        Sorry HFlashman, the Dumbocrats have NEVER voted to lower taxes. Most have become rich in their “public service”, like the HillBilly Clintons!

        • eddie47d

          If you don’t like the Clintons or Obama’s or even the Bush’s being rich then go after the book publishers. They are are the ones paying out the royalties and making them rich, or just don’t buy the books. Palin is also making a sweet bundle on her books. That’s capitalism at it’s best or it’s worst. So what’s your point?

          • http://?? Joe H.

            eddduuuhhh47DUHS!!!
            yeah right Gore made over 300 million the first three years out of office from a book deal!! Have you had that little pea brain out playin with it again??? Somebody close the gate and put an armed guard on it!!!

          • eddie47d

            Nobody makes 300 million on any book deal Joe Hemroid , so stop smoking whatever comes out of your rear! I hope you let it dry out first. Either way it has affected that noggin of yours.

      • scott

        where have you been for the last 50 years. certainly not here

      • marvin

        HFlashman
        you really do need help you have been breating that assgas from having your head up your as- or some other liberals wake up you lost and betting on the replay won,t change the score obama is the most unamerican president we have ever had but hell you and obama are citizens of the world,you remind me when james cagney said look ma i,m on top of the world at the end of the movie just be for he was put down

        • Karolyn

          We are all citizens of the world; and Americans are no bette than anyone else.

          • JeffH

            Whew, last I looked my citizenship said UNITED STATES OF AMERICA!

            Screw that world crap, that’s what has us in this mess to begin with.

          • Michael J.

            Karolyn,
            Reading up on Karl Marx today are we? Don’t know about you, but I’m a citizen of The United States, not the world. That’s OK, I’m sure a Freudian Slip looks quite becoming on you.

          • Karolyn

            That’s the problem with so many today. It’s an “us against them” mentality when in reality we are all children of God; and as such, all equal. We are all really brothers and sisters. This has nothing to do with Marx. This is my belief.

          • Bruce D.

            If we are all equal why is the left always trying to figure out how to scam money out of people. Sense we are all equal shouldn’t we all pay the same amount of taxes. If every nation was equal we would not have to support them. There is equal opportunity but many do not take advantage of it in Ameica. It takes an education and hard work to achieve success. Many do not want to put forth that effort. If your son got an A college would you want him to share that grade with someone who got an F so that they both would end up with a C. Americans have great minds for inventions and statistics show they are the most productive in the world. Many people sit around waiting for something to happen. Others make things happen and that sets them apart and it sets America apart from many other nations.

          • Bruce D.

            This may be a small point but do you know how hard it is to get an egg over lightly for breakfast in some developing countries. They are just not going to do it or even try to comprehend how to do it. People can not even cook eggs equally or put forth the effort to do it.

          • Michael J.

            BruceD,
            It’s not as tough as you think to order breakfast in foreign countries. In Mexico for example, if you would like one egg just say “Yoko Ono por favor”.

          • Bruce D.

            Michael J I was not specifically talking about Mexico and it is not the language barrier. I was in Ensenada thirty years ago and barely remember the egg breakfast I had there but enough to know I though it exceptionally good. Eggs have to be cooked on the right heat for the right amount of time to be good. Mostly I am talking about the lack of desire to do what is necessary to keep your customer coming back. Those who understand have sucessful businesses and those who don’t fail. Employees who make the extra effort to make things go right advance. Those who don’t wonder why they don’t go anywhere.

          • eddie47d

            Jeff; If you are so proud of being a citizen of the USA then why do you allow our country to have troops in 215 countries. Now that could be the problem. We all love America although some of us don’t believe in imperialism or poking our nose in so many countries business.

          • Karolyn

            You guys just don’t get it and probably never will, because you don’t want to.

          • Bleh

            eddie47d – “If you are so proud of being a citizen of the USA then why do you allow our country to have troops in 215 countries. Now that could be the problem. We all love America although some of us don’t believe in imperialism or poking our nose in so many countries business.”

            It is quite clear that we need to bring the troops home. We do not need to be poking our nose where it does not belong and we certainly can no longer afford to.

          • JeffH

            eddie47d again says nothing at all except a rousing commie Baaaa, baaaa, baaaa!
            Had I known that you had authorized me to make that decision to bring our troops home I’d have given it some thought…but seeing as how I’m not authorized and can only voice my opinion and vote, I guess I’ll need some more help…are you really that stupid? YES YOU ARE!

          • JeffH

            Karolyn says “This has nothing to do with Marx. This is my belief.”
            Then you must think like Marx!

            As for not getting it….yes we do get it and we refuse to give in to the Marxist/socialis/communists!

      • Troy

        Well HFlashman you obviously have half a brain or is that going to far. How do you come up with giving everyone the same tax incentive, no tax increase, giving special treatment to the rich. Hum, let me see. If no one gets a tax increase then everyone gets to enjoy not paying any more taxes then they currently do. Hum, let me see also. According to HFlashman, if the rich only have to pay 3% to 4% more one the dollor of income over $250,000 then everyone has been taxed equally. If I pay a higher tax on money about $250,000 then I am paying more in taxes just because I make more than someone else. Find the genious because I cannot figure this one out. It is not the taxes that make benefits for the rich it is the corrupt cronnies in office that do that. Insider trading, bailouts to the banks. If a bank is broke then why when they get the bailout do they gobble up, through buying, the other banks that have failed. All with the bailout money of coarse. Oh so many deceived zombies in this country. Wake up. It is not about party. It is about the country and our freedoms stupid.

      • marvin

        HFlashman
        if the poor had any money what would they do with it creat jobs hire worker,reguardless of what you think the people with money do all the hireing and make jobs,but liberals like you want to make the evil rich pay,unempolyment went up from 9.6 to 9.8 in november,but you liberals say we are putting people to work,are you sure you are an american citizen or here illegally

      • Vigilant

        “So as you gripe, moan, snivel and are outraged about the wealthy having to pay their fair share …. even though they enjoy the same rates to $250,000 everyone else does … just remmber…the Democrats vote to LOWER your taxes…the GOP voted to RAISE your taxes.

        “Ya’ proud?”

        Yes, I am! Even the lame ducks got the message sent on Nov. 2. There may be hope for this country yet! And you get no traction with the leftist propaganda.

        Flush, you’re a little too gleeful about knocking the Repubs., when they still don’t have a majority in the Senate, and won’t have one in the House until January. It’s the MAJORITY Dems who can’t get their act together, a minor point that seems to escape the superficial “thinkers” like yourself on the left.

        You’re also a bit premature in your screed. The compromise will be reached, and the existing rates will be maintained for all taxpayers for a couple of years at least. I guess it’s easier for you to take advantage of outdated material than to keep up with current events.

        Another piece of current events you probably are not aware of: the November jobs figures just released shows that unemployment has RISEN to 9.8%. Only you and your socialist buddies advocate raising taxes on the the job makers during a time of recession. Sadly, you will NEVER get it.

        • JeffH

          Vigilant, may I add that unemployment has been at 9.4% or worse for the last 19 months. I’d say those “shovel ready” jobs are paying off.

          • Michael J.

            No, No, No, the reference to shovel ready jobs will come into full swing after the initiation of healthcare deathpanels. We must be careful not to take things out of context.

          • Vigilant

            Michael J,

            I’d laugh even louder if there weren’t some truth to what you say. Of course, it wouldn’t look like those pictures of the Jews being shovelled into the pits; it would be more like the euthanasia of “Soylent Green.”

          • JeffH

            MJ ^ Vigilant, you guys are killin’ me…no pun intended…LOL!

          • http://?? Joe H.

            JeffH,
            Better them than Nobummer! He means it!!!

          • JeffH

            JoeH, at least this way I’d die laughing…

      • Vigilant

        Flush,

        “…the Democrats vote to LOWER your taxes…the GOP voted to RAISE your taxes.” Not that the statement is true, but since you now seem to be championing lower taxes, have you now become a fiscal conservative, or is it just that you’ll take any side of an issue to diss the Republicans? Make up your mind, son, you’re one confused puppy.

        • Bleh

          Does this mean he supports the current GOP position on extending the tax cuts or wait, err, I am confused now.

    • http://www.keysinsurance.com Linda

      The Fair Tax is the way to go! Ron and Rand Paul are pushing for this and also for an audit on the Fed. I hope they keep pushing and push hard.

      • S.C.Murf

        Amen, hold each and everyone of them (dems and repubs) accountable. The wikileaks are showing all of us just exactly how crooked and corrupt they ALL are. Our elected officials have sold us out,all of them, for the last 100 years, and are they held accountable? NO, hell we vote them out and then they go to their hideouts and collect their fat pensions. They have stolen from social security and never paid it back (ALL OF THEM). They love the dissent between parties, that gives them more room and time to take care of their agenda. The should be in jail but again that will never happen

        • http://?? Joe H.

          S.C.Murf
          I find that not too likely. how much have you seen in the leaks about Nobummer??? What better reason to take over the internet??? State secrets being released!!!

          • Michael J.

            Joe H.
            My thoughts exactly, when will Likiweaks release a birth certificate or some college records. I bet the DOJ would get it into gear then pronto.

  • Karolyn

    It’s a shame all Republicans can do is block legislation. Everyone needs to work together, and the rich need to suck it up and do their part. I guess the Repubs are concerned about their own taxes going up. They could really care less about the average American but are grandstanding.

    • Norm

      Karolyn
      You are right. The people who caused the economic meltdown are now holding the country hostage, by threatening to make matters worse. What a crock.

      • Vigilant

        Norm,

        You and Karolyn need to take a quick course in first grade mathematics. When K says, “It’s a shame all Republicans can do is block legislation,” she and obviously are unaware that the Dems. have the majorities in both the House and Senate. You want to blame anyone, blame the (Heaven forbid!) Democrats.

        Another ludicrous assertion: “Everyone needs to work together, and the rich need to suck it up and do their part.” This is the “do as I say, not as I do” ploy that would be laughable if the left didn’t really believe it. Here we have two years of a government fully in the hands of the Dems, who have not only disregarded the common sense of the Repubs, but have frozen them out of negotiations at every turn, and ended up passing legislation that the MAJORITY of Americans do not want. Suddenly, we all need to work together? It was tried, and was not successful.

        We had an election on November 2nd, but you wouldn’t know it when you hear the left continue to bitch and bray about things. I guess you guys were in Timbuktu when the electoirate sent a clear messsage to lefties like yourselves.

        • Karolyn

          Vig – From where I stand it sounds like conservatives are doing all the bitching and braying, and Republicans sure look like the “party of no” to me.

          • JeffH

            K, couldn’t expect anything else from such “independent” thinkers like yourself and ole Normy,

          • Vigilant

            Karolyn, kindly amend that to “HELL NO!”

            Gridlock, if it means stopping the socialists dead in their tracks, is infinitely preferable to the continued slow death of Capitalism under this regime.

          • http://?? Joe H.

            karolyn,
            If either you or Normy make a fast stop with the other behind….Oh the humanity!!!!

        • Norm

          The minority Republicans were able to stall the government, not because they are independent thinkers, but because they are in lock step like good Nazi storm troopers.
          By using the ridiculous filibuster threat they made a minority look like a majority. That BS works both ways.

          • Michael J.

            Norm,
            Conservatives are trying to prevent the Jan.1st train wreck which Obama seems to be oblivious too, or is anticipating with great joy.

            I have been so far unsuccessful at forming a coherent contraction of the words Obama and oblivious, but that’s my intention here.

      • Bleh

        The people that caused this, were known to be involved in this and known to have been clear tax evaders have been appointed to offices by your hero Oblamo. Oblamo is a Wall-street puppet.

        The GOP, in this case, want to continue the the tax breaks so our businesses can have some cash to create jobs. Jobs that your hero Oblamo has failed to create.
        If that equates to holding the country hostage then I am all for it.

      • Ted Crawford

        Norm, Artical 1 Section 7 U.S. Constitution, CRA, Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac, Mark to Market. These are the primary causes of the melt down, so I guess you are correct the ones who caused the melt down are still holding up the recovery!!

    • Bruce D.

      Obama has ran up deficits in the trillions of dollars in a very short time with no end in sight. Raising taxes on the rich will get 7 billion over the next ten years. You should stop lusting after others peoples money and demand fiscal responsibility from government.

      • Mick

        Bruce D. says:
        December 3, 2010 at 8:37 am
        Obama has ran up deficits in the trillions of dollars in a very short time with no end in sight. Raising taxes on the rich will get 7 billion over the next ten years. You should stop lusting after others peoples money and demand fiscal responsibility from government.

        *********************************
        Again Bruce,,,,You’re right on…..People should try to succeed before drooling over other people possessions……..

      • Karolyn

        It’s $700 billion! Pretty close to a trillion!

        • Teresa

          Hello Karolyn, hope you are well….I think the point he was trying to make here is “of other peoples money”….that is Obamas way of thinking…easier to throw around everyone else’s money but when it comes to government accountability and budgeting there is none. This political game must stop. No more democrat or republican it must be WE THE PEOPLE before it become a communist nation and yes Karoly that is the direction we are headed.

        • Vigilant

          “It’s $700 billion! Pretty close to a trillion!”

          That’s right, and it’s money that won’t be stolen from the taxpayers to fund unsuccessful efforts of the government to bankrupt us. It’s money that will keep small businesses afloat, that will create jobs and get this country on the way to economic health. It’s money, NOT taken from the entrepreneurs, that will create an atmosphere of confidence, perhaps the MOST important thing in whipping this tragedy the Dems. are forcing us to experience.

        • Bruce D.

          Yar $700 billion is a lot of money over a ten year period but not when you compare it to 1.4 trillion dollar deficits a year. Obama deficits were projected to be at twenty trillion in the next ten years.

        • Ted Crawford

          According to the logic that we need the 700 billion dollars to help with the deficit, we should clearly let all the tax cuts expire! If 700 billion will help how much more would 3.3 Trillion help! If the first is true the second must be also!

        • Bruce D.

          I like that point Ted. Good logic!

      • HFlashman

        Bruce….2009 was the Bush budget deficits. Now….if you were facing a crashing economy….flirting with another Depression…what would you do? I shudder to thik of how deep and long that Depression would have been ….frippin’ yahoo no-nothing backseat economist is your tag Sparky …

        • Teresa

          and yet you follow a man who bows to others, will not stand up for his own country, turns to the UN against his own states, and has put our nation in more debt than any other president alive. you point is?

          • marvin

            Teresa
            give him hell girl,liberals only have one thing in their pea brain whats mine is mine and whats your is mine so bow at feet of the great king obama the chosen one and be healed of all you own

          • Vigilant

            Flush and his ilk have a very selective memory. It was FDR’s and the Federal Reserve’s intervention that both lengthened and deepened the Depression. History is indeed the most “inconvenient truth” to the left.

            “frippin’ yahoo no-nothing (sic) backseat economist is your tag,” Flush. Ever taken a course in Macro- or Micro-Economics? I didn’t think so.

          • HFlashman

            He followed protocol in the greeting to the Suadi’s if that’s what you mean. Much better than kissing and holding hands like Bush II adhered to don’t you think? Sort of put the Suadi in his place if you have any intelligence about it. Debt…hmmmm…2009 budget was not his, and he saved us from a Depression. you’d rather the alternative? Have no idea about what you mean by the Un thing….paranoia and FOX News is my guess as to where that’s coming from.

            And BTW…as a % of Debt increase? Doesn’t even come close to Bush II or Reagan…

            Enjoy the benefits to come as the economic recovery continues to grow and we come out of the worst economic disaster in the past 80+ years.

          • Bruce D.

            Wow Teresa you really hit three sore spots with me. With the bowing Obama embarasses mostly himself. Bad mouthing America he is trying to embarrass us. Turning on the state of AZ like that with the UN I though was an out right act of treason. He should be impeached for that in my opinion. There are a lot of other things you could have mentioned also like bribery to pass healthcare and class warefare to name a few.

          • http://?? Joe H.

            flushedman,
            “Enjoy the benefits as the economic recovery continues to grow” YEAH RIGHT!! That’s why over 430,000 people filed NEW unemployment claims in November, cause it’s growing so fast!!!!

          • who cares

            Teresa, he migth of bowed out respect. But you can’t compare to what Bush did to King, of Saudi arabia. Bush, kissed, and held his hand. for smart you people clame to be, Your NOT.

          • Claire

            Regarding foreign leaders and visiting their country– It is a fine line, but to me, the bowing and kissing of hands are a sign of submission and weakness. (Let them bow TO ME and KISS MY HAND). With foreign leaders, respect for one another should be a handshake, nothing more. The kissy face and huggy bear stuff does not always work and if I were a leader and had a falling-out with the leader that I bowed and scraped to I would feel like I was groveling.
            With the economic mess America is in, perhaps Obama feels like he should not piss them off. Diplomacy can be difficult. It would be for me. Maybe I am too arrogant.

        • Troy

          Bush’s deficit of I think 3 to 4 trillion was carried out over 8 years. Your master in chief has accomplished a larger deficit in just 2 years. Wow. Get that. I do not understand how anyone can stand and defend any politician but a small few that has served our nation sinse Regan. They all have served for their own interests and what their buddies of special interests can kick back to them with the sweet deals they write legislation for. There are so many people here who are so caught up on party that they are willing to fight for a politician who would sell out the freedoms for power. Zombies.

          • marvin

            Troy
            if bush had a surplus when he took office and he blew 3 or 4 trillion or even 5 to 6 trillion and the dept is 13 trillion now give or take a trillion and obama blew 3 trillion in 2 years less see 4+3 is 7, 13 – 7 is 8 trillion number don,t lie but people make numbers tell lies,ether clinton did not leave a surplus or bush and obama need go to jail

          • Troy

            Obama has blown more money over the last two years than any other president in history. Bush blew a few trillion in his two terms as well. The point is that Obama threw away more money in two years than Bush did in eight years. Neither president needs accommodation for their terrible management of money but it is stupid to say that Bush has caused all of this. And ultimately the House and Congress are responsible for the spending in the first place. The president only has a pen where the House and Congress write and pass the bills that create and support the spending. Having said that, who controled both houses over the last 6 years? Actually 6 for the house who has constitutional power of the money and 4 years of the Senate. The answer to that is the Dems. So, what does that leave us. That leaves us with the Dems being in charge of the money for the last 6 of 10 years and we have 14 trillion dollars in debt. So, who is really responsible for what has happened. Who controled the Fed, Fannie mae, Freddy Mac, and all the oversite organzations for the financial structure that has just collapsed? The Dems. Now, enough about who is responsible. who is going to take the reins and get things back together. Let me guess, you are going to say the same system that got us here in the first place, the Government. Why not we the people. Why not we the people put partisanship to the side, as we espouse to our elected officials, and make things happen. In fact we are and that is what the Tea Parties are all about. Oh ya, thats right, the right wingers. We cannot stand back and look at what is really being suggested by the Tea Parties because the puppet masters of Government parties will get us side tracked into the partisan speak they vomit. Stand back and ask yourself what you can do to make a difference. You can be a part of the solution and help to rein back Government and stop the cycle that has been going on for decades, or you can sit back and listen to the puppet masters of the media and political elite (most politicians). If you choose the latter I would rather you sit your pothetic ass down and shut up.

          • Troy

            By the way Marvin, the last statement of pothetic ass was not directed to you necessarily. It was directed to those who would choose to take the stand it spoke against.

          • HFlashman

            Troy…your math is as bad as your comperehension. 2009 was Bush budget. Obama has only 2010 as his budget offering…

          • Vigilant

            marvin’s sense of precision needs a little fine tuning. Re:

            “if bush had a surplus when he took office and he blew 3 or 4 trillion or even 5 to 6 trillion…”

            It’s either 3, or it’s 4, or it’s 5, or it’s 6. Yeah, what’s a trillion here, a trillion there, huh? Your argument completely fails, and is a waste of our time. Go back to school.

        • Bleh

          HFlashman – “Bruce….2009 was the Bush budget deficits.”
          2009 was the Democrat led 2006 onward Budget deficits.

        • Ted Crawford

          Appearently progressives don’t bother to read the Constitution! Presidents do not make the budget, they either pass or veto it. The budget originates in the House! ART.1 SEC.7

      • Norm

        Bruce D.
        Obama deficits are courtesy of GW Bush.
        Tax cuts, unnecessary wars, an unpaid Medicare drug fiasco are not freebees.
        Couple this with an unprecedented economic meltdown and you get what have.
        The GOP have some power (not all by any means) and we shall see what happens.
        My prediction: Nothing but more Red Ink.

        • Bleh

          Tell me the Democrat led Congress 2006 onward had nothing to do with it please. Cite your proof.

        • Bruce D.

          Sorry Norm, no one is buying that anymore.

          • Bruce D.

            I reread your article Norm and I do think you are right about one unnecessary war and the Medicare drug fiasco. What I think you are not right about is Obama’s handling of the deficit and the economy. He has made it worst and not better and Obama is in way over his head. He really isn’t qualified to handle the problems we have today.

    • scott

      define ave americans. 99% of republicans are Ave. Americans. Again you liberals haven’t a clue.

      • Karolyn

        Scott – How can you make such a ridiculous remark?

        • marvin

          Karolyn
          and the truth will set you free, liberals are like bugs they hide under rocks

          • Karolyn

            I ain’t hiding! What are you talking about. Just senseless words to bash the other side.

        • Vigilant

          Karolyn, you are always carping about posters not backing up their contentions with facts and figures. While I doubt the claim as well, how about countering with something other than an “I think” position?

          • Karolyn

            I can’t find anything in the thread that refers to what you’re talking about.

        • Ted Crawford

          Karolyn, only 20% of Americans are liberals, however the majoriety aren’t republicans they are independants

        • Bruce D.

          Karolyn most on the right look on the left as a foreign virus. There is no place for us in the democrat party. Most country people left the democrat party as we feel democrats do not represent American values. If the republican party was only about rich people they would never have the votes to get elected. Democrats look to the cities for their support where many are dependent on government in one way or another. With dependency comes loss of sovereignly as government rules and regulations begin to define the way in which you live life.

      • who cares

        Scott, I,m glad, Happy you’r in their side!!! They maybe more peole that vote republican, and they maybe more of you. flipped side your side has more truly misinformed wing nuts. I bet you all believed in the tooth fairy (that would be Bush your father figure)

        • http://?? Joe H.

          who cares,
          such imagination! I mean that must have taken all of what? 3 seconds to come up with? Oh, that’s right, this is you were talkin about so what? 24 hrs???

  • Mick

    David says:
    December 3, 2010 at 7:25 am
    The Bush administration put a sunset clause on the tax cuts, because Bush’s advisers knew the cuts would inevitably lead to unsustainable deficits. The cuts did, of course, contribute greatly to the current deficit, and now the Republicans promise to not do anything until the very wealthiest Americans most able to pay taxes get to keep their ill-gotten and ill-advised tax breaks. Sweet!
    ((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((

    David,,,,,The major reason for this outrageous deficit is spending, like too many of our citizens our government spends on useless programs and ignore necessities.
    I know way too many people the same things with their own budget, they can’t pay their mortgages but have two or three brand new unpaid cars in the garage, the kids have their personal computers and cell phones, they eat out instead of in and the list goes on just like our government.
    Take care of necessities and the rest will follow, it takes time to reach goals instant gratification will only get you broke….

    • TIME

      Mick,

      Great reply!!!!!!!!!!!!

      To all – How easy a fix we face, (but) one must also keep in mind that just due to “wanting something,” is not like “Needing” something.

      Thats where the base problem is with Americans, the keeping up with the Jones, so make your life stonger in all ways and you will have “all the wealth” you can handle.

      Lacking common sense will not make you wealthy, nor stronger, just Stupid and Broken.

      • Delores Smith

        TIME,
        If the problem is with Americans, as you stated, what nationality are you?
        Delores Smith
        Delores109@cox.net

        • TIME

          Delores,
          Thats is an utterly mindless statment on your part.

          If you have a problem with grasping what I posted perhaps a course in Thinking 101 may aid you.

        • Troy

          What is being talked about is not a statement suggesting that only Americans are like that. What is being said is that the people of this land need to be more responsible with their money and Government needs to follow suit. Stop being so confrontagious and think about the things people are saying any manybe you will be able to see another persons point of view. That is what debate is about.

      • Claire

        TIME: Good choice of words. I agree.

        • TIME

          Claire,
          I do try to just put down the facts, saddly we have many who are just angry at the world and not focused on the real problems. How sad.

          We have a class war thats been going on for years, now its anyone who’s not a Barry Soetoro follower is a bad person, and if you live your life in a way that is positive your hated too. Its all just crazy.

          To take a quote from someone who’s a NWO person, “I hunger for some good news, something positive.”

          • Karolyn

            Out of all the garbage, I hear some good news every day. That’s what we need more of – positive thinking – it’s contagious. I truly believe the economy fell apart because the collective consciousness was led into negative thinking. The more people heard bad news, the worse they felt; and it perpetuated negativity. I have always said that people shouldn’t be afraid to spend money if they have it. That’s the way to turn the economy around! Too many people are not spending even though they have it! There really is plenty to go around.

          • Michael J.

            Karolyn, I am sure you are refering to all the Bush bashing and recession fear mongering leading up to the 2008 election, right?

          • Karolyn

            No, I’m referring to the negativity spewed every day. Actually, I’m going back to post 9/11. One year after that my business started to fall apart, as did other similar businesses in my area. (Antiques in east central PA).

          • http://?? Joe H.

            Karolyn,
            then the upcomming stock crash(6 to 8 months max) will just be from negative comments and not from the devalued and failing dollar???

    • David

      Mick: Yes, most of the current deficit is due to overspending, much of it on what many of us consider things of little value or on two wars. However, it will be very difficult to reduce the deficit we already have by leaving the current tax structure in place. We need to increase income and cut spending until the deficit is cleared up.

      • Christin

        David,
        Increase income and clear up the debt…

        Then we would need to become a PRODUCING nation once again that would provide jobs and much needed revenue.

        But inorder to do that we would need to revise the TAX Codes and Regulations on businesses and people so that small and large businesses could thrive and/or come back from abroad as well as lift the oil moratorium and get drilling, refining and selling oil & gas, Cut Congressional Spending and gov salaries, teach true American History and Free Enterprise, and eliminate burdomsome 2000 pages laws like nobamacare, crap & tax, dream act, secure the American borders and end our occupation in the wars…

        Clear vision to reform and prosper.

      • Mick

        David says:
        December 3, 2010 at 8:32 am
        Mick: Yes, most of the current deficit is due to overspending, much of it on what many of us consider things of little value or on two wars. However, it will be very difficult to reduce the deficit we already have by leaving the current tax structure in place. We need to increase income and cut spending until the deficit is cleared up

        ************************ It took decades to get to this awful financial mess and the last 22 months have been the worse,it will take many years to fix this and raising taxes on responsible people already crippled by the Washington gang and by the irresponsible citizens will not solve the problem.
        Cutting hundreds of useless programs and holding people accountable for their own debts will, holding the reliable tax payers for the foolishness of others will continue to sink the country and will not teach them a thing about controlling their spending just like in Washington.

      • Troy

        David you have a great point. However think for a moment when Regan was president. Taxes were cut and jobs were created. More wealth up the that point was made during his years in office. With the taxes being cut and jobs being created more revenue was brought in to the federal budget because more money was being funneled into the taxes stream via more jobs. The other thing that brought more money into the tax stream was higher levels of income which followed suit with higher tax brackets for those who had greater success. Cutting taxes, as what is being argued, creates revenue. The other ignorant thing, in my opinion, is how in the hell does not collecting taxes cost money. You do not have any less money when you do not collect taxes than you do when you do not collect taxes. I know that sounded confusing but not collecting taxes is not collectin taxes. The only way it could cost money to not collect taxes is if you have plans to spend it before you have it. Lastly, if you keep taxes at current levels and cut spending, don’t spend money you do not have, and cut stupid project. You will lower the deficit. Lets see, was it sixty million for a seal dam or something like that; there are many many many many many other project like the one I just stated that can be cut.

        • HFlashman

          Troy…Reaganomics has been shown to be a disaster on so many fronts and the understanding of that evil time is growing clearer as history progresses. You’ve been reading and listening to too many wacko’s out there.

          • Bruce D.

            Wake up HFlashman. You talk a lot of nonsense. Ronald Reagan is one of the greatest Americans of all time. If you do not recognize that it reflects badly only on you, not on him.

          • Karolyn

            Here is a really interesting article about Reagan. I was especially surprised about the fact that he expanded the government!
            http://www.lewrockwell.com/gregory/gregory12.html

          • Bruce D.

            Kartholyn you leave the site of some left wing ideologue with absolutely no credibility. HFlashman might just as well have written that article with amount of spin it. Reagan ended the cold war and lowered taxes. He took over from Carter who brought the United States to the brink of financial disaster and the worst recession since the Great Depression. His deficit was less in eight years than Obama’s was in two years. Reagan not only had to go up against the leftest in the democratic party he had to also go up against those leaning left in his own party. Basically he had to change the thinking of both parties to get anything done at all. He ended up with a landslide victory in his second term. I believe he lost only one state. Only socialist ideologues do not recognize his accomplishments.

          • Karolyn

            Well, Bruce, Here’s another one. http://www.alternet.org/news/140438/was_ronald_reagan_an_even_worse_president_than_george_w._bush/

            Can you refute any of the info in these articles? I would doubt it. I haven’t found one yet, but I’m sure you can, knowing the conservative sites. I’m just surfing. I googled “Was Reagan a good President?, and other than things on answer sites, these are the top articles. I’ll keep looking, though.

          • Karolyn

            OK, Bruce, Here’s a pro-Reagan article, but it really doesn’t say that much. Just what a great guy he was and that he ended the cold war. (Which is really still going on.)
            http://biggovernment.com/bfolsom/2010/02/06/why-was-ronald-reagan-the-greatest-president-of-the-20th-century/

          • Bruce D.

            Reagan’s accomplishments are well known and well documented. If you are trying to find them on leftest sites you will not find them. I was surprised when Shawn Hannity wrote his new book, shortly after that all these sites began to spring up on the INTERNET saying he was cheating the solders out of concert money that would have gone to benefit them. Shaw Hannity is like the Ron Howard of Happy Days. He is not going to cheat anyone out of anything and has done more to benefit the solders than most. Liberals will stoop to any level to discredit.

          • Michael J.

            Bruce D,
            I agree, we need a brand new Reagan right now and an army of Joseph McCarthey’s to push the progressive liberal socialist back into the closet from whence they came.

            P.S. Ron Howard is a Hollywood liberal and not a good analogy.

          • Bruce D.

            Michael J. I do not remember the name of Ron Howard’s character on Happy Days. I was not talking about Ron Howard real life. He was ju

          • Michael J.

            Bruce D,
            Richie Cunningham

    • rosina

      Mick
      Good reply.
      I speak as one who has NOT paid taxes for the last two years simply because I have had practically NO income. And not for want of trying. My expenses are high(work) but I could not even deduct from income. THERE WAS PRACTICALLY NO INCOME!
      BUT, I still say that ALL taxes should be reduced for all.
      The wealthy DO pay their share and more with higher tax brackets. I am not talking about the cheats and frauds among them, nor those in the government who get away with everything we could not.
      What MUST be reduced is ridiculous government spending just to please a group or party.
      Earmarks-out!
      Congressional salaries REDUCED-NOW!
      Congressional staff-REDUCED!
      EVERYONE ON THE SAME social security including Congress.
      Funny how they talk of reducing Social Security -for which we have paid all our lives but NEVER the Congressional Pensions!
      All the freebies and expenses the Congress grants themselves along with the cheating (Rangel for one) which would give us A PRISON TERM!
      I would give each Congress man ONE secretary and ONE AIDE-basta!
      141 is vehement but what he/she says is correct as well.

      • HFlashman

        The wealthy will receive their continued tax breaks…up to $250,001. Then every dollar after that level is hit for 4% more…at the same rate it was during the Boom Years of the Clinton Era (another Democrat thank you very much:).

        • S.C.Murf

          flash, you are blind in one eye and CHOOSE to see only what you want to. We will receive no help from you to get us out this mess that is a given, one can tell just from your blame game you spew on this site.

    • Vigilant

      My God, Mick, DON’T MENTION THE WORD “SPENDING” TO A LIBERAL.

      “INCREASE TAXES” is the mantra and the Holy Grail for the left, and “REDUCE SPENDING” is nowhere to be found in their lexicon.

    • http://?? Joe H.

      Mick,
      And their answer to try to solve it is spend even more! Only this time it’s ALL borrowed!!!

    • who cares

      To follow Mick, everything thats happing now was by disign by the very wealthy, banks, military war machine, GE, oil companies, so on, so on. These companies needed someone inside to do their betting. of the two parties the Republicas are more corrupt. You guys wont see for what it is. If we continue in this path everything will be privatized. we are going backwards. these two wars were by design to have the American people at each other throats mainly blaming the Democrats. Blame Democrats for everything, blame Obama for the wars, spending,and what ever else sticks. America just cant get out these wars. If Obama leaves before the jobs is done you, and republicans will blame him, if he stayed you will blame him. see!! you folks are to stupids you can’t see what your party is doing.. in the mean time the dark side Obstructionist republicans are working to get back in office finish putting the last nail in ???? oh, bather way Republican will be the ones who will take your guns away. They are laughing at your dumb asses

    • Ted Crawford

      The facts bear you out Mick. The revenues generated by the taxes in 2003 amounted to 1.8 Trillion dollars, by 2006, when the progressives took control of Congress they were generating 2.5 Trillion dollars. The tax rates are not the problem! SPENDING IS!!

  • Norm

    It appears that the GOP will never raise taxes. The also can’t touch SS or Medicare in any significant way without getting killed in the next election. They refuse to cut the military budget and want to spend more defending the borders.
    The only monies left is rather insignificant.
    So it’s RED INK until somebody kicks up the taxes or, better yet, changes the tax codes so the ultra rich pay for the good fortune of living in America.
    Or they can carry out the Rush Limbaugh threat and leave.
    Ta Ta!

    • Bruce D.

      Government workers are being paid 2 to 1 over the private sector. Obama has also greatly increased the size of government. We should start cutting there. South Korea, Germany, Japan and others need to start paying the full amount for their own security. One war is winding down. Republicans should be looking at cutting defense also. Years ago I read an article that the military was paying $450 for a hammer. We need better oversight in every part of government. Taking an additional $700 billion from the rich over the next ten years is not going to make everyones problems go away. The truth of the matter is most democrats and many republicans want graft. Money buys power in government. Raising taxes is not the solution. Cut spending first because no amount of money will ever satisfy a politicians lust for money and power.

      • Karolyn

        Well, didn’t Obama just announce pay freezes for govt. workers for 2 years? Of course, their union isn’t happy; however, I did hear some interviewees saying they have no problem with paying their fair share. You are right about the defense budget. It’s totally ridiculous. Instead of hiring contractors to do a lot of things, they need to let the soldiers go back to taking over those jobs like cooking and cleaning up the mess hall. That’s just one area. I’m sure the waste in defense spending is immense. And before somebody jumps on me, I am not advocating cutting anything for servicemen.

        • Bob Wire

          yea, Karolyn, as I understand it, an “interest” of Chaney’s has stared providing prepared food.

          An Army runs on it’s belly ~ and I wouldn’t want anything he cooked!

          I was a solider once and I figured it up, I was being paid 18 cents per hour. I pulled KP duty, ~ I cooked, I scrubbed huge pots and pans, I worked on trucks , tanks, bulldozers, filled sand bags, dug holes in the ground, constructed fue gas bombs, constructed 40 ft machine gun towers, and bunker complexes, pulled guard duty, stocked pantry’s, installed fire support bases, erected antenna’s, installed showers, recovered the lost and stuck in mud, the abandoned, gave blood, spilled blood, filled body bags, changed out engine power packs, change oil and did grease jobs, drove convoy point, drove drag and “procured” from the Navy and Air Force every chance I got.

          A military unit was then self contained and everyone was cross-trained and knew what had to be done and what was needed. I don’t know what they have done with my Army today. But I figure they got a small raise since I left, maybe up to .25 cent per hour.

          But out-sourcing is bull$hit, the military should take care of it own. It’s not suppose to be fun, but an experience you never want to relive and cause anyone to think long and hard about committing troop without just cause and not about a few people getting wealthy in the process.

          • Bruce D.

            The military has been fighting two wars and have been shorthanded. You cannot expect soldiers to dodge bullits all day then come back to camp and do housework.

          • Karolyn

            Bruce – Just like some soldiers are medics and chaplains; some can be cooks and not be in the “field”. I don’t even know if they still do mechanic work.

          • Bruce D.

            They have been shorthanded.

          • Karolyn

            Well, if we weren’t fighting other people’s wars, they wouldn’t be shorthanded. But then the Defense budget wouldn’t be so bloated. Come on Bruce, we all know about the waste of money being paid to outside contractors. We also don’t need to have our soldiers stationed all over the world for no reason. All the military in Germany are having a grand old time. And, I know one who served time in Bosnia, a year in Iraq and some time in Afghanistan; but while he was “home” in Germany, he was living a great life. He’s back here now and wants to go back to Germany where the living is better. How’s that for a patriotic American soldier. I’m sure he’s not the only one either.

          • Bruce D.

            I remember you telling that story before Karolyn, but really you are only making a point I have made many times here. Also Obama said Afghanistan was the ‘just war’ and he is president now. Maybe the left should find a new president in 2012 if they do not agree with his position.

          • http://?? Joe H.

            Karolyn,
            If you don’t believe they still do mechanic work, then remind me never to fight in YOUR army!!! you think those hummers and trucks just run forever??? you think those aircraft fly forever??? They all need mechanic work and the assigned troops do it!!!

          • Bruce D.

            Karolyn Obama left loopholes in the freeze where people will stil be able to get pay raises. It was just a sham as Obama’s goal is to grow government and its power over the people. He should also of had a hiring freeze at the same time. It makes sense that Army cooks can cook cheaper but for the most part it is two to three times more expensive for government to produce any kind of a product over the private sector. Also I think in the field most food is canned.

        • Vigilant

          Karolyn says, “Well, didn’t Obama just announce pay freezes for govt. workers for 2 years?”

          That and many other “hot button” issues have a minor impact on the Federal budget. Obama took a symbolic step, but a true cost-cutter would have been to roll back the high raises the Feds received in the last two years under his stewardship.

          Earmarks, foreign aid, government staffs and pay rates have received a lot of comments, but their significance is virtually nil when it come to the high budget deficits and national debt.

          • Bruce D.

            They need to start with those things first and then move to others. Earmarks are the worst because it is basically bribery for votes.

          • Karolyn

            Oh, ,I know that. The Defense budget is the biggie that needs to be traimmed. I had heard some economics people talking and saying everything else is chump change other than Defense and Medicare. Even all foreign aid and welfare put together don’t compare in the least.

          • Christin

            Yes, Vigilant, not “pay freezes”… “pay cuts” for the government employees. (except for military who need to come home)

      • Norm

        Bruce D.
        $450 for a hammer. Gee do you think the private sector was trying to screw the government?
        News flash – it happens all the time.

        • Robin from Arcadia, IN

          Norm, Without even knowing who the company was that charged the government $450.00 for a hammer, I am willing to bet they were unionized.

        • Bruce D.

          It is the politicians that allow that kind of stuff to go on. It is their job to oversee that. If you have a hammer and someone says I can give you $25 for that hammer or I can give you $450, which one do you think he will take. Why do you let the government off so easy. They must be held accountable.

        • Norm

          Experience demands that man is the only animal which devours his own kind, for I can apply no milder term to the general prey of the rich on the poor.

          I sincerely believe … that banking establishments are more dangerous than standing armies, and that the principle of spending money to be paid by posterity under the name of funding is but swindling futurity on a large scale.”

          Thomas Jefferson

        • Norm

          Let us disappoint the Men who are raising themselves upon the ruin of this Country.
          John Adams

        • http://?? Joe H.

          Norm,
          If the government would get rid of the most favored bidder list and go to true bidding the cost would go down over nite. Allow 10% overrides and no more! get a true fine in for fraud on the parts of contractors! A certain electrical parts company who I will not name from the Cleveland area had a contract from the government and went 15 million over bid. The government caught them in fraud and charged them a million dollar fine and no further contracts. well it turned out that they were the only ones that made the said part and the gov. had to come back to them, hat in hand asking them to help out! so in the end, they made 14 million illegally and still have government contracts!!! think that’s the fault of the gov or the contractor??
          Remember, the government that is supposed to watch over our dollars faithfully LET THEM GET AWAY WITH IT!!!!

      • http://?? Joe H.

        Bruce D,
        actually Japan IS paying for U.S. defense!!

        • Bruce D.

          I could not find that information on the INTERNET other than Japan was paying something. Donald Trump on the news said South Korea was not paying but I could not verify either one and I am interested in taking a look at the figures.

          • http://?? Joe H.

            Bruce d,
            Better yet, look up the list of nations that have paid their bill owed to the US from WW2!!! It’s there if you look! only one so far has done it!!

    • Karolyn

      Absolutely right!

    • Robin from Arcadia, IN

      Norm… You need to jump on the FAIR TAX wagon. If you aren’t for it, then why you are against it?

    • HFlashman

      Norm…yesterday the GOP did vote to RAISE your taxes….

      • http://?? Joe H.

        flushed,
        Pure BS!! the libbies voted to spend unfunded and the repubs vetoed it!!

    • who cares

      Norm, is not that they raising taxes on the wealthy. they are only trying to get them to start paying their taxes of what they once paid. as it is now they are only paying about 10 to 12 percent while the rest of Amricans You and me are paying 33% to 36 percent. Obama want (0) ZERO, NO increase for any one who make under $250.00 thousand dollars or less. if make $30.000 no tax, raise for you. if you make $60.000 your taxes will not be raise.. Fox new is unsuitable for anyone under the age of 75.

      • http://?? Joe H.

        and the alphabets aren’t suitable for anyone over ten!!!

  • Bill

    Tax write offs and deductions should be addressed. Some are a good idea but there are a lot that are not so great. How can a legit. tax paying business compete with, if their compitition is writing it off their tax liability. In the end also tax payers are supporting really bad, make no since, business decesions.

  • Ernie Langdon

    There are a lot of things the the Bush Administration did wrong that contributed to destroying our economy. We have been fighting two wars in the middle east since 2001. Iraq we never should have fought, and the other we should have ended in six months or less. We should have captured or killed Bin Laden and left Afghanistan. Before we entered into either of these wars the President should have went before congress and ask for a declaration of war. Taxes should have immediately been raised to cover the costs of the war. I have heard people say that Freedom is not free. They are correct, but you can’t fight a war by simply sacrificing young lives. You must somehow pay for all of those expensive weapons. Just putting everything on the credit card as the Bush Administration did will not and did not work.

    What should we do now that we are in this giant mess. The Republicans and the Democrats are both wrong. The Republicans want to use this situation to simply grab power back in 2012. The Democrats want to raise taxes but they do not want to offend the middle and lower income voters.

    We should not only let the tax rates go back to Pre-Bush rates for the rich, but for everyone and we should raise taxes to at least cut our deficit. This does not mean that the government should not spend money to give the economy a push when needed. They should spend now so they can make up for all of the consumers who can not afford to spend now.

    The road to recovery does not follow the path of least resistance. Throughout the history of our Country the American People have had to make big sacrifices to get where we are, or at least where it was in 2000. We should not suddenly think that we can start doing things the easy way. History has already shown us that it does not work.

    • Delores Smith

      ERNIE,
      SO…Bush did it. Look at our nation and the mess that Obama has created. You have avoided mentioning what he has done to our deficit. Obama and Soros are evil men who plan to redistribute the wealth, so that when the multi-billionaires are running the globe…they can keep their own money as they rule “The New World Order.” They are NOT doing any of this out of kindness. Ernie, study Obama and Soros. They are transparent. Delores Smith Delores109@cox.net

      • Karolyn

        There’s that word again – “evil”. It conjures up images of Obama and Soros with sneering grins, wringing their hands at another plan to “get” the American people. Get real! Another clairvoyant who absolutely KNOWS the truth. Where did you get your ideas from about transparency? I’m sure they came from people like Glenn Beck and Rushtojudgment Limbauch. Let’s face it, NOBODY knows ANYTHING, and nobody has all the answers like so many people here think they do. It’s all just a big mess and has to be dealt with one thing at a time like anything else.

    • Bruce D.

      If freedom is not free like you suggest than why do you not want your own taxes raised. Bush made a lot of mistakes and Obama has only compounded the problem. So far I like what the republicans are saying. We need to give them a chance. The new ones won’t even take office for over a month. Democrats have held the House for four years now and most have become fearful of their incompetence. That is why they lost 65 seats in a landslide lost.

    • scott

      Obama has added to what bush has done 10 fold and that includes the war. Again you libs haven’t a clue.

      • Bob Wire

        10 times? I think you need to look again Scott and quit repeating something you heard. Embellishing data leaves to wrong conclusion and bad ideas.

    • http://none Mike

      Ernie, So when our pockets run dry whos money are you going to spend next. Guess what its probly going to be yours.Mike L.

    • Vigilant

      Ernie,

      “We should have captured or killed Bin Laden and left Afghanistan. Before we entered into either of these wars the President should have went (sic) before congress and ask for a declaration of war.”

      (1) Yes, and Clinton should have grabbed Bin Laden on the three opportunities he had, and didn’t. That could have avoided the whole 9/11 catastophe and saved a lot of blood and treasure.

      (2) We’ve not had a declaration of war since WWII. Thank Truman, Johnson, Bush I and Clinton. No declaration was possible regarding Afghanistan because we are not conducting a war against that country. As for Iraq, I agree with you.

    • http://?? Joe H.

      Ernie,
      Bush DID go before congress to go to war!!! They voted for going!!!!

    • Ted Crawford

      Ernie, what do you think of these statements? “A tax cut means higher family income and higher business profits and a balanced Federal budget…As the National income grows the federal government will ultimately end up with more revenues. Prosperity is the real way to balance our budget. By lowering taxes, by increasing our jobs and incomes we can expand our tax revenues and finally bring our budget into balance” The 35th. President of The United States, September 18, 1963.
      “we contend that for a nation to try to tax itself into prosperity is like a man standing in a bucket and trying to lift himself up by the handle” Winston Churchill 1903

  • Delores Smith

    AMERICANS,
    Republicans are NOT blocking legislation. Harry Reid is trying to push The Dream Act in the Lame Duck Session when they have the votes to do it. Our economy is bankrupt…and in order for Democrats to get illegal Democrat votes, they are spending money again.
    I live in Arizona, where we’ve been sued by Obama for wanting to identify illegals. Obama and Reid, you must have pieces missing somewhere. There is no doubt in my mind that you are collapsing the economy deliberately. It’s called the Cloward-Piven stategy – overload the system of government and change it to what you choose. My guess is a dictatorship. It will be over my dead body. Enough is enough. Americans, support the Republicans. Give them a chance to stop this mess.
    An illegal man was beheaded in Chandler, Arizona…15 minutes from my home. Tell your Senators and reps to vote NO on the Dream Act. It allows illegals to bring their families to America. The Dream Act is America’s
    nightmare.
    Delores Smith
    Delores109@cox.net

    • rosina

      TOTALLY AGREE WITH YOU DELORES.
      I support your governor.
      To make matters worse, CALLING ON THE UN????????????????? TO DECRY THE ARIZONA LAW?
      AND 10 FOREIGN NATIONS HAVE SIGNED AGAINST IT?????????????
      Since when did other nations have any rights over the US LAW and Constitution?
      Another of Obama’s hidden agenda?
      I TRULY HOPE THE GOP DOES STOP THESE OUTRAGEOUS NEW LAWS!

      • scott

        quote; Since when did other nations have any rights over the US LAW and Constitution?
        Answer; Sense Obumer took office. It’s evident he is out to destroy everything the the constitution stand for. But what can one expect from an illegal Muslim.

      • eddie47d

        Delores; You have swallowed the Republican (extreme right wing ) swill for too long now. The Dream Act does not allow illegals to bring families to the USA. It’s for children and young adults who are already here and it’s cost effective. So there is no nightmare or scary bogeyman behind the proposal. You are the one drumming up the fearful talk. In your previous comment you brought up that Soros somewhat runs this country which is also an extreme right talking point. It’s not much different than the Koch brothers or the Chamber of Commerce and their influence. So you have really fallen into the right wing pudding by loosing your sense of balance.

        • http://none Mike

          Eddie, The fear of it is its a first step process. Do you think it would end with just the children? No then it would be time to declare us heartless for abandoning the parents of these poor children.This is a first step in the open borders american block.Right now how are we even in a position to do this? I ask you this out of a passion for human life not out of any social plan. We bring them in as citizens what then? Offer them welfare in a broken system.Offer them free medical care that if not changed soon may only just be better than vetranary care. We certinly do not have surplus jobs to ofer them. Most of us dont even have jobs ourselves. We bring them out of a 3rd world country just for them to enter a slideing 1st world country. Only to have us become more like the third world country they came from. Maby this is the right idea being offerd at the wrong time? Lets think before we promis anyone else around the world that things are bette here in the United states. Lets clean up our own house so we have something to truly offer immagrants again. Not just more of the same of what they left. Then maby they would want to be here leagly again and not just to game the system. Mike L.

        • Robin from Arcadia, IN

          eddie… The Dream Act is cost effective? How?

          • Vigilant

            Robin, please don’t buy into eddie’s attempt to turn this into a dollars and cents discussion. It doesn’t matter what economics he uses (even the quasi-legitimate argument that college graduates make better producers and taxpayers).

            The discussion can only be framed as a discourse on what’s legal and what’s illegal. ILLEGAL immigrants are just that. And violating our Constitutional principles by opening the door to this type of nonsense just dilutes the respect for rule of law, the ONLY thing that has kept this country together since its inception.

            Moreover, the Feds have no Constitutional right to meddle in the business of education. That’s clearly under the Tenth Amendment.

          • http://?? Joe H.

            edduuuhhh47DUHS!!!,
            And just how are they gonna PROVE that these kids haven’t left the country in those years??? Shut the BS!!! you’re drooling it!!

          • Bleh

            Why on earth should these illegal aliens jump to the front of the line of the people going through the LEGAL process of becoming a citizen?
            They want to be a citizen then they need to go to the back of the line and do it the LEGAL way.

            I do not care how long they have been here illegally, fact is we have laws and they need to be enforced. Fact is they should all be deported. The laws are there for a reason and if we do not start enforcing them our infrastructure will drown.

            Crying racism are crying we need to save the worlds impoverished will not change a thing. Fact is we can not save the worlds impoverished unless we fix ourselves and probably not even then.
            The worlds impoverished can only be saved by improving their own locations. There is no other way, they simply breed to fast. The legal immigrants we take in even combined with the illegal aliens is but a drop in an overflowing bucket. We will never get ahead and we will all drown trying.
            Then who will save us?

          • Ted Crawford

            Robin, Delores pointed out two of the far left heros, ole eddie is just following the recommendation of yet a third hero to progressives Saul Alinsky. He’s parrotting some nonsense he heard from keith or rachel or ed on msnbc.

        • Teresa

          eddie47d: you need to read the bill yourself then

        • eddie47d

          Mike; I agree with some of what you are saying but then you get into the doom and gloom scenarios. What does productive,willing to work,willing to educate themselves,willing to serve this country have to do with all this welfare talk? If these young adults have the ambition and are willing to step up to the plate then they should be welcomed.

          • eddie47d

            Vigilante: Oh so cleaver in twisting your opinion. It is a dollar and cents issue.Many of these children(now young adults)were born here.They only know America and speak English. I would say the majority have not broken any laws and those who have are not eligible for the Dream Act anyway. Even if the immigration issue goes towards expulsion of illegals I’d be willing to say that alot of them (parents) would be willing to leave their high school or adult aged children here in the USA. Immigrants all over the world have done that for centuries. Parents who want a better life for their kids always choose the kids over themselves. If these young adults want to serve in the armed forces then even better.We need a few good men and women in the military especially those with spunk and ambition.

          • http://none Mike

            Not really alot of gloom and doom Eddie just some related facts. Notice I did say this kind of thing might be the right Idea but its being offered at the wrong time?If we were in a financial up turn and had the surplus jobs to offer them once they got out of collage it might make more sence.In other words a work visa with a 5 year option to citizenship might not be bad providing they worked and kept their noses clean. This would be good enough proof for me that they intended to be productive citizens. What we have now is a group of immagrants that are here to game our systems as much as anything else(some but not all I can admit that much)They work for cash and use fake Id’s to draw food stamps and welfare. This puts huge burden on our systems that at this point cant afford it. Mike L.

          • eddie47d

            Good reply Mike

          • Vigilant

            eddie says:

            “Vigilante: Oh so cleaver (sic) in twisting your opinion. It is a dollar and cents issue. Many of these children(now young adults)were born here. They only know America and speak English.”

            eddie, who thinks he’s oh so clever in twisting the truth. IF THEY WERE BORN HERE THEY ARE U.S. CITIZENS, STUPID! They are not the ones we are talking about.

            I would say the majority have not broken any laws…” Another lie. THEY BROKE THE LAW WHEN THEY ILLEGALLY IMMIGRATED TO THIS COUNTRY, STUPID! Is that the new propaganda, that illegal immigration is legal?

            Honestly, in my day you couldn’t graduate from elementary school without the ability of abstract thinking, or without knowing that ILLEGAL does not equal LEGAL.

          • eddie47d

            I won’t buy your sick trash mouth anytime soon Vigilante. Until YOU are willing to go after the Corporations who hired these “illegals” then get off of the immigrants back. Stop punishing kids for what our Corporations did to their parents.You know…those noble and honorable chicken farmers, ranches and orchards.

          • http://?? Joe H.

            eddduuuhhh!
            you just stepped in your honorable and hardworking chicken farmers!!!

    • Don

      You are so right Delores, i would have hoped that other States would have stepped up to the plate by now and fallowed Arizona’s path!!

    • HFlashman

      Delores…hate tobe the one to tell you…but the GOP put us into this mess. And it will take more than two years to get out of it. From the economic numbers being issued since the election…we are coming out of this disaster given courtesy of the GOP.

      So why do you suppose the GOP wants to raise your taxes? They voted to raise your taxes yesterday…nice of them eh?

      • S.C.Murf

        flash, please make that popping sound!

  • Patriot

    The answer is not tax increases at this time or any time on anybody! Are people rich that make over $250,000? Our politicians create this mess and now somehow they are going to fix it by raising taxes on the wealthy (who is wealthy, where do we draw the line), it is the same tired class warfare game they always play to insure the masses as some above believe, when one group of society is taxed heavily it affects us all. People wake up!

    For example when a small business is setup as a sub-chapter S corporation the profits on the business go directly to the owners income and is taxed as if those profits were their actual income. Normally a modest or small business profits are 3 to 5% of gross sales so a $10M business profits are then $300K to $500k. These profits are then taxed at the owners income tax rate even if the owner took little income the government will then confiscate another 35 to 40% of those profits which could be $200,000. These dollars instead of being used to invest back into their businesses by “HIRING” more people, bonuses, retirement accounts, salary increases, equipment, real estate, charitable donations, etc. etc. is now being distributed by our politicians in the form of punishment which hurts us all!

    We need to start taking responsibility over ourselves and have civil debate about cutting all unnecessary departments and funding that makes no sense at all. We need to resist any attempt to raise taxes, when these higher taxes are agreed to over and over we create BIGGER government which helps only the politically connected. This is not about wealthy, middle class or poor; it is all about taking the country back and guiding a course to STOP this madness of out of control spending. They government does not help it only destroys things, can you think of one program that is well funded by the government that does not have waste, corruption of significant cost overruns?

    I feel like I am in the movie “It’s A Wonderful Life”, my favorite Christmas movie of all time. Remember George Bailey is pleading with the folks not to let Potter take over the Building-n-Loan, since he already owned the banks, real estate and most of the businesses in town. What did he say? If Potter takes control of the Building-n-Loan that there will not be another decent house build in Bedford Falls. I feel like Potter is our government, do you see any parallels?

    I sure do, keep the fight going, keep in mind these tax cuts we are taking about are not cuts but are tax increases and these were supposed to be permanent, but the progressive socialist democrats would not agree to these unless there was an expiration date, so now here is the date they wanted, do the right thing.

    The best way to create a robust economy is to help the private sector if we fail to do so, the system will collapse and we will all have nothing! I am tired of the politicians creating these messes and then complaining about them as if they had nothing to do with it!

    We need to stick together, we can do this!

    • Delores Smith

      PATRIOT,
      I’m on your side. Terrific comments. Thank you.
      Delores Smith
      Delores109@cox.net

    • Norm

      Patriot

      Experience demands that man is the only animal which devours his own kind, for I can apply no milder term to the general prey of the rich on the poor.

      I sincerely believe … that banking establishments are more dangerous than standing armies, and that the principle of spending money to be paid by posterity under the name of funding is but swindling futurity on a large scale.”

      Thomas Jefferson

      Let us disappoint the Men who are raising themselves upon the ruin of this Country.
      John Adams

    • who cares

      Patriot, you ask who is wealthy? anyone who has more money then you. the person who lives off his dividend checks.

      • http://?? Joe H.

        who cares for brains,
        I guess you mean those retirees that have worked almost their entire life saving here and there and made some good investments and are now living off those, retirement and social security???

        • http://?? Joe H.

          Oh, I know, just like your hero Nobummer, you think they have lived their usefulness and should just take a pill or two and drift off………. end of life!

  • http://com i41

    All you National Marxist Communist Democrat Union Socialists, tax cuts are not costing the Treasury or the citizens. You keep more of your money in your pockets, not for the socialist marxist bastards in the the beltway to waste. So with your nano minded wards of the government, stop the worthless expanding government. With Nazi traitotor Soros, the string puller, is using the democrat party as a tampon to soak up all the socialist crap he spews and loves. Since he is the money source behind unions, democrat party canidates down to city dog catcher, is to accomplish his goal of desroying the USA, then just like he did to his family. Democrats will be tossed, forgetten, and since they accomplished the taking care of problem. All democrats want all their money sent to the government and beltways smucks give you whatthey think is acceptable allowance for you. That is why democrats have never gotten off the fat government sow’s tits, their brains are conditioned to suck off of everyone one else, because that is what they have been stuffed full of socialist crap. They will not do anything unless the government guarentee it is safe and risk self reliance is not the PCed message.

    • Delores Smith

      i4l
      Way to go. This is our America. Let’s fight for it with our minds, as you are doing. The Latino Congressman said that if Congress doesn’t pass the Dream Act, he is going to take to the streets and protest. We’re going to contact our reps and Senators and accomplish all of it with our minds.
      Delores Smith
      Delores109@cox.net

      • http://?? Joe H.

        Delores,
        Good! Ihope he’s out on the street till he freezes his azz off!!!

  • steve

    Oh what a happy day it would be if ANYTHING could block legislation.

    LAME DUCK GOVERNMENT FOREVER!!!

  • Mick

    Delores Smith says:
    December 3, 2010 at 9:04 am
    i4l
    Way to go. This is our America. Let’s fight for it with our minds, as you are doing. The Latino Congressman said that if Congress doesn’t pass the Dream Act, he is going to take to the streets and protest. We’re going to contact our reps and Senators and accomplish all of it with our minds.

    %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
    Delores,,,,This dream act will cost 6.2 BILLIONS a year and dig America’s hole even deeper ,,,How that for rewarding the law breakers ?……….Can any of you liberals see the monetary and ethical damage this will cause ?

    • scott

      what do the liberals care about cost as long as they get their handouts. And cater to the illegal aliens so they can get their people elected. Reid is a perfect example.

      • Bob Wire

        Scott , you have been programed and really fail to know much about anything outside your programing and that is that all Liberal is bad and Tea Party, GOP and conservative very good.

        This hate for Naughty Nancy and Horrible Harry is because they were very affective, they did their jobs serving the majority of Americans that put them in office! If they were seen as being ineffective the GOP would loved them.

        So get a grip and an a overview about what’s truly afoot today and quit being just a ditto-head, a empty shirt, a mouth piece for the right and attempting to pee on our leg at every turn in the road.

        • Vigilant

          “This hate for Naughty Nancy and Horrible Harry is because they were very affective, they did their jobs serving the majority of Americans that put them in office!”

          Sorry, Bob, I guess you didn’t read the election results. The two criminals you mention did not serve the majority, they steadfastly ignored the will of the people. If Nancy was so effective, why were Dem candidates running as far away from her and Obama as they could?

          I wouldn’t call a budget-busting scheme that affects 1/6 of the economy, passed over the majority will of the people, “serving the majority.” Facts are indeed stubborn things.

          • Bob Wire

            As I said, they were very effective! if you think they passed bills against a majority you valid my point Vigilant

        • Teresa

          I’m sorry but when someone stands before the world and trys to defy the Constitution and ram bills thru that will cost this already economic hurting country of ours bills that are going to cost me and my child thousands upon thousands of dollars to pay for illegals tuition, illegals rights to vote, illegals rights to citizenship, forced healthcare…..(I could go on) while they continue to break the law, live hypocritically while telling the American people how “WE SHOULD LIVE BECAUSE THEY KNOW WHATS BEST FOR US”. They continue EVER day to further envade our civil liberties and yet you question why anyone would dislike them? It is not because they Choose to be effective for the best of the “People”, it is because they Choose to be all they can be for their Personal agenda and that alone!

          • Bob Wire

            “when someone stands before the world and trys to defy the Constitution and ram bills thru that will cost this already economic hurting country of ours bills that are going to cost me and my child thousands upon thousands of dollars to pay for illegals tuition, illegals rights to vote, illegals rights to citizenship, forced healthcare…..(I could go on)”

            well? that’s more stipulated opinion, cause and effect. As far as spending goes, it’s not been that far off for the year as 43′s spending,
            and even today it’s not all been spent but projected.

            “O” and the 111th congress is responsible for 1.6 Trillion of a 13.9 Trillion National Debit.

            You really wouldn’t have like to have seen what didn’t happen if some of this spending wasn’t done. And I find that no less weak of an argument then we giving credit to “W” for 9-11 type attacks that didn’t happen.

            Strip anti-trust immunity from health care providers and we can start talking about other options of HCR. Until then, we got what we manged to get, which it better for everyone rather then a few.

            and as I say, Dirty Harry & Nasty Nancy were very effective and all this “hate” only proves it.

    • eddie47d

      The Dream Act shouldn’t cost a thing. These young people can go to in-state colleges and pay the same as anyone else.They can also join the Services and it won’t cost anymore than any other recruit.

      • ValDM

        If you believe that, then I have a bridge you might be interested in. The parents of these young people will, of course have to be here, and since there are no jobs, look for welfare to explode. And just HOW do you think this in-state college will be paid for? Can you say gov’t grants? More tax dollars to waste. The solution is to stop spending. When you find yourself in a hole……STOP DIGGING.

        • eddie47d

          You need to go take reading lessons for you contradicted both my points.

          • Vigilant

            And you need psychiatric help if you can’t see that the only way he could contradict your points was to read them.

          • eddie47d

            So much for Vigilante being a smart man, go wallow in your ignorance somewhere else.

          • http://?? Joe H.

            edduuuuhhh!
            Go look up contradicted in the dictionary!!!! If he didn’t agree with your posts he SHOULD have contradicted them!!!!

  • Bob Wire

    I’m ready for taxes to go up myself. If that’s whats required to administer to business. Pay for what my government had spend over the last 25 years.

    Cutting 4 trillion in 10 years plan is not fast enough, that would still leave 10 trillion we’d be staring at, left on the table for us to argue about 10 years from now.

    If 1% of the nations wealthy truly are paying 40% of the tax burden as I have heard they were, I see some disparately in such numbers.

    but at the same time, their money has been make available by the very country that they live in and should support.

    The business community coupled with government of this great nation have failed to provide the needs of the nation if we still have 40.4 million living in poverty and accepting welfare. I see no way around such a conclusion. At 340 million strong, we have 40 million lazy people? No! I don’t believe that, not at all. Not since I find myself too darn close to the edge myself.

    We as a nation have “out-sourced” our jobs and became a “consumer nation” we have destroyed the blue collar food chain driven “labor” into poverty. We had spent money foolishly in attempts secure global positional play for projected mineral resource extraction by the misuse of the military in the name of national security.

    The nation has been gut shot and we are stumbling around the world a bleeding out, while few want to even accept the fact we’ve been shot in the gut! Nation Pride? Don’t really feel the injury yet? Can you not see our boots are filling up with our own blood? Are you blind to the blood trail we are laying down? Are you so blind to see something is bad wrong?

    As for calling it “JOB KILLING” for people to pay their share ~ Maybe the wealthy just needs to spend more and quit hording!

    This places us in the position of just taking it or printing it or borrowing money.

    I’d prefer seeing them to invest back into their country rather them these other options. What’s is going to take to make them “want to” beside just give them more? A we see, they’ve enjoyed 10 years of low taxes and it has brought us to this day.

    While everyone knew this day was coming, Dec 31st and the tax cut to expire.

    There are claims that big business needs to know what they might count on 5 to 10 years down the road and this “not knowing” discourages growth.

    That makes good sense, ~ we need to give them that ~ as this is where “reform” has met a road block. The wealthy needs assurances to ever invest.

    T-bone Pickings, Gates and many others are there, ready to get started.

    People, rich or poor don’t do anything without good reason and we need to understand that. Your own personal “wants” might not have anything to do with mine, it has to be made so.

    • scott

      wow! That doesn’t even merit a reply!

      • eddie47d

        Sure does for he is right on the money. Since lowering the tax rate did little to spur job growth then there could be an opposite conclusion. The wealthy got even richer by outsourcing jobs,laying of workers and avoiding taxes. They got their “instant gratification” off the backs of others. We can attack welfare for the poor and sometimes rightfully so. We should also go after welfare for the wealthy instead of coddling these “poor” souls. It’s time they paid the piper instead of their constant lust for more at the expense of the shrinking middle class.

        • Karolyn

          Absolutely! Give them an inch; they’ll take a mile1 Would that they were all like Buffett, Pickens and Gates – wanting to help the country as a whole, while still making money! So true that they’ve been given breaks for so long and still move out of country and are not hiring. What makes anyone think that given more time, they’ll start hiring again? Ridiculous. So many are like the Marie Antoinette: “Let them eat cake.” You see what happened to her! Another thing is that not all the wealthy are business owners, so creating jobs does not even apply to them. Showbiz people can stand to pay a little more in taxes.

          • http://none Mike

            Answer for both of you Karolyn and Eddie. Consumption based tax system. This way everyone pays the same amount rich or poor.But at the end of each month the poor recive back taxes on neccisities such as food houseing and clothing. The rich also recive this back as well but they would recive less because the spend less on actual food. The food they spend on at restraunts is not included in a monthly rebate plan. If you 2 were to actually read the bill and the books you might see this is the answer we all are looking for.Not just the mainstream medias explaniation of it.The Oh look crowd that says oh they just want a 26% national sales tax. Actually the prices for goods and services either drop or stay about the same when all the embedded taxes are removed. Also the tax base is moved onto a market economy.Which is up to 5 times larger than an income based system. Mike L.

          • Karolyn

            Mike, You don’t think the rich eat at home? I would guess that many, if not most of them do. They all have cooks, but just like “regular folk” many of them I am sure do like to cook.

          • http://none Mike

            Karolyn, The majority of them travel more though. And this results in more consumption at restraunts. They also travel more in buisness as well. Me and the family consume at least 2 home cooked meals per day and 3 if we are lucky. I carry leftovers for luch for the most part and eat at restruants on special occasions.I would say this is probly the norm for most of us here in the middle class. Especially during these times.Mike L.

          • http://none Mike

            Sorry my spelling is atrocious today. I participated in our churches entry into the christmas parade. Started building a float at 7am yesterday and finished walking the parade route with it last night at about 8:30pm. Kinda feeling my age a bit today. :)

          • Vigilant

            “What makes anyone think that given more time, they’ll start hiring again?”

            History, Karolyn, history. If you and eddie would stop the mental masturbation and start reading a little unrevised history, you might learn something. Precisely whom do you expect to create jobs in this country? The employees? The government?

          • Karolyn

            Vigilant – Entrepeneurs usually do not start out rich, but they have the guts to pursue their dreams; so it is not necessarily the rich who do all the hiring. They are the people to push this economy. Also, many of those entrepeneurs need the money that the SBA can get them. Are you against the SBA btw?

          • Vigilant

            “Entrepeneurs usually do not start out rich, but they have the guts to pursue their dreams; so it is not necessarily the rich who do all the hiring. They are the people to push this economy. Also, many of those entrepreneurs need the money that the SBA can get them. Are you against the SBA btw?”

            Karolyn, it’s been said that, given the tremendous over-regulation and taxation of small businesses today, Bill Gates would never have been able to start Microsoft. THAT’S the result of liberal/socialist policies. I find it inconceivable that a person such as yourself can advocate policies which stifle the growth of business, and then turn around and ask ME if I’m against SBA loans to small business!

            You’re absolutely right that “it is not necessarily the rich who do all the hiring.” The problem that’s looking you square in the eye and you fail to see it, is that the bulk of small business falls into the income bracket of above $250K, and THEY are the ones you and Obama want to classify as “the rich.” THEY are the ones who will suffer under this “hate the rich” umbrella of socialism, and employees will not be hired, or laid off, because of the tax increase proposed.

            A typical move by Obama was to loosen the restraints on SBA and bank borrowing by small business, while urging an increase in their taxes. Unbelievable. He throws a political crumb to small business, purely for the good publicity it will give him, while planning to sock it to them come January 1st.

            Small business depends on certainty in a volatile economic environment, and certainty as to how the government will act is conspicuously absent, thanks to this administrations policies. A strong commitment by the Gov’t to decline raising income tax rates on “the rich” is the type of certainty they need. Business in this country is sitting on trillions of dollars that will remain on the sidelines unless and until government can prove that it is willing to adopt Capitalist-friendly policies.

            If government can do that, it will unleash the tremendous power of American ingenuity and entrepreneurial spirit that can get the wheels of economic progress moving again.

          • Karolyn

            There are still businesses being started, even in this economy. I get what you’re saying Vigilant; however, I’m just not convinced. I do listen to both sides. I consistently try to listen to both sides and look at how there can be compromise. However, I still can’t go over to your way of thinking. I heard today that they might raise the income limit to $1,000,000. Would that be better for you. Part of my problem, I guess, is that I have been pretty poor financially for most of my life; and to me, $250,000 per year is being a millionaire. I’m live pretty nicely these days on WAAAAY below that, like $20,000 per year? I was living on nothing for over 3 years.

          • http://?? Joe H.

            Karolyn,
            lady, you have just got to get out of this idea that 250,000 is “rich”! It’s nowhere near rich! It doesn’t even know rich! One million dollars today isn’t rich anymore! they are “comfortable”, not rich!One million dollars today is more like 15,000 in the fifties! very comfortable but rich’s poor cousin!!

        • Patriot

          When people start to understand that raising the tax rates result in pushing the middle class into poverty, then this non-sense will end, think these things through! If it was not for the people who took a risk by starting businesses then there would be no blue collar or middle class jobs. Most business owners are hard working (60 plus hours per week) with no guarantees for income, insurance, etc. they risk everything. In addition, if their business goes under they cannot even draw unemployment, it seems like everyone else gets bailed out, not the small business owner!

          By the way, how much is enough for taxes, most business owners pay over 50% of their income to taxes (when you account for income, sales, property, etc.), it seems that makes them a government employee, right? Would anyone survive paying 40 to 50% of their income to taxes? Stop trying to demonize small business owners these people generate most of the employment in this country, without these people taking significant risks for their benefit and the betterment of their employees we would all have nothing!

          Can’t people see that this class warfare is exactly with our politicians are trying to create, Stop the Madness! Our only line of defense, short of violence, right now, is the Republican Party, conservative movement and tea party! This could change and I do not agree with everything, but I agree mostly with cutting spending and I know the democrats do not seem trustworthy in this area.

          I always believed that our elected officials had our best interests at heart, the more I learn and observe the behind the scenes motivations of these folks the less I feel they are capable of fixing anything! New blood is what is needed, stay the course this will be a longer Journey then any of us thought! We need all Americans to stand together, stop putting each other down and into classes we are one and the same!

          • Vigilant

            Excellent post.

            Raising taxes to the level the Dems want will make American business the HIGHEST taxed business of all the industrialized nations. These socialists want not just to kill the goose that lays the golden egg, they want to cremate her and spread her ashes over the poverty-stricken nation they will have created.

            What a bunch of totally ignorant people.

          • eddie47d

            Vigilante;There are excellent companies in America who are straight forward and grow on integrity.There are also small businesses who do struggle and need healthy profits to survive from one year to the next. I certainly don’t want something I didn’t earn and really dislike painting every business with the same brush. Unfortunately the good businesses aren’t willing to take on the dishonest entrepreneurs. It’s almost like they stand together and are willing to let bad things happen. Maybe they feel it’s none of their business what another company does. Even when it effects Their integrity. Now there is a mental masturbation! You see things that are wrong and do nothing about it. Too many companies think they deserve more (just because they can)and could care less about the consequences. (Lehman Bros.,Countrywide,Big Pharma,Merrill Lynch). They once had integrity but bit into the apple of greed. Since these companies flourished at one time and the hanky panky still went on without any oversight then the trust is gone. The public did nothing,Wall St did nothing and our government did nothing to stop their unearned wealth. We have been swindled as a nation and the companies that survived (whether they were honest or not)aren’t providing jobs. Yet their Management teams are still padding their pockets. You want to give them a break,heck no! Their whole sewer system needs to be cleaned out before I believe in them again.You can call us ignorant all you want or socialists if that makes you fee better. I say these companies and a few government officials should have taken the garbage out right after Enron.They choose not to clean up their act so we shouldn’t have any more pity parties for their incompetence. If taxing the wealthiest is the only thing they understand then so be it.

          • http://?? Joe H.

            eddduuuuhhh! I noticed you named all those “evil” businesses but listed none of the “good and straight forward” ones!!!

    • S.C.Murf

      I like it, I like it, I like it. Well said. We need to produce not consume. I am very fortunate, as I work in MANUFACTURING, we are still producing something and I am still working, Praise Jesus. We need to get our jobs back into this country.

      Thanks Bob
      up the hill
      airborne

      • Bob Wire

        That’s great news and good to hear you feel that way SC Murf

        and what is your product?

        • S.C.Murf

          Sidedump trailers,hauling everything from rip rap, gravel and agra. products. We are down 2/3rds from where we were but now are holding our own.

          • Bob Wire

            being just 1/3 down today ~ is very good these days.

            I’ve got two fronts, commercial and residential ~ commercial is up 60% and residential down 90%. The Commercial being up has more to do with wise business choices and good fortune then the economy.

            I’m grateful ~

    • Troy

      How is asking the rich to pay more, by percentage, just because they have more being fair. What people who espouse this type of retoric do not think about is that what they are asking is not fair. Taxes are based on a sliding scale. The higher your payroll income is the hight the percentage of taxes you pay because of the tax bracket you fall under. That being said, they already pay more than the average american. Sure there are those who cheat the system, and that should be dealt with, but to say that because they make more money they should have any less of a tax break than any other person is no where near fair. The suggestion that taxes need to be raised is not the answer. First of all, if they raise taxes to bring in more money they will only create another progam that so badly needs funding. Second, we need to scrap all the stupid projects, like seal dams and many many many many other similar projects. We need to cut the bloated Government and the agencies that are just wasting money for the sake of giving someone an over paid job. Put those services, if they really need to survive, into the private sector where they will be more efficient and have a real benefit. The example above about the $200 hammer is not a joke; things like that really happen. It is usually done with some beaurocrat and their buddy who owns the manufacturing company, or is the CEO or something, and they together take advantage of the Government treasury. One politician will not stop the other because they may need a favor for their pork somewhere down the line. And the band plays on and on and on. The smaller the Government, the less power it has, the less money it has to waist, and the less debt we citizens have to dole out to pay it back. Governmetn services should only be handled through the States in order to bring competition among them which also causes efficeintcy. That idea is from the Constitution. What sound thinking our fore fathers had. Everyone, Wake up.

      • who cares

        Troy, you pay 33% to 36% of taxes. They pay 10% to 12% wich is higher? Its not hard and need not to be a genius to figure this out. I under stand your are a republican, I know you can chew and walk at the same time I know you can do it.

        • Ted Crawford

          I have no clue what you are talking about. The rate they want to raise is now at 36% and they want to raise it to 39%. Where are you getting this 10 to 12% figure from?

    • http://?? Joe H.

      barb wire,
      I think they have supported the country very well and THEY have made a lot of the money available by hiring and creating jobs!! How many jobs have the majority of these progressives here created??? my bet would be on NONE!!

      • Bob Wire

        Well Joe, it’s hard to say, and opinions differ, I’m not a liberal/progressive but I have added 3 persons this year in spite and could hire more if the money would loosen up. But I can’t get too far out ahead of my money.

        The GOP has done everything the can to see things don’t improve and they have been effective as well. They got a black democrat setting in the white house and that troubles them more the a bad economy, as it’s really not all that bad at their house.

        • http://?? Joe H.

          Barb Wire
          I hope you clean up a little better after yourself in the residential work than you do here. Otherwise I can see why it’s down 90%! you are spreading something a little smelly here. When you said that the GOP wants to keep things the way they are, didn’t they just stop a non- funded expediture of 500 billion dollars just last week? Didn’t you say that a balanced budget helps keep the economy running? You spend unfunded, and you create debt. Now WHO was it that wanted to spend unfunded???

          • Bob Wire

            “Didn’t you say that a balanced budget helps keep the economy running? You spend unfunded, and you create debt. Now WHO was it that wanted to spend unfunded??”

            No, I don’t remember saying that. Place it inside some context and maybe I will. The national debt is presently 13.8 trillion and the current administration is responsible of only 1.6 of it while we have 40.4 million Americans on welfare rolls out of a total of 345 million Americans that live inside our national boundaries along with 30 million illegals, ~ so what’s your point?

            And retail is down 65 to 95% for everyone in my market ~ and yea it stinks Joe but not due to my conduct or decisions. I live in the same country you do that decided a few years back “W” had the stuff to lead a nation to economic prosperity and defend liberty.

          • http://?? Joe H.

            By the way Barb wire,
            you still didn’t answer two other questions I asked!!! Pickin and choosin??

          • Bob Wire

            Well, Joe ? word your question(s) in such a way an answer can be offered and I will do my best.

    • http://?? Joe H.

      Barb wire,
      Good! then you pay a little more and while you’re at it you can pay a little more for me and the rest of the crew here as well!!!

      • Bob Wire

        I feel as if I have and suspect I will continue to pay more. As I find myself in the middle, bailing out both the poor, rich and government alike.

        It appears me and other like me are the only ones with a money tree in the backyard and still capable of producing these days. You want that in $20′s or $100′s Joe?

  • diane

    We need to set terms for congress.
    1.Term limits
    2.Cut their salaries to 40k…too much for their part time jobs and incompetence level
    3.No pensions and all pensions to end backdated to January of 2008
    4.They pay for their own health crap and it has to be what We the People have
    5.No perks…the 40k is plenty for their activity level and they should get another job
    6.All laws cover the same for them as for us…i.e.old Rangel goes to prison
    The above would drain this horrid swamp and the final suggestion is we have the ability to fire any of them who do not represent us!

    • Angel

      Nice ideas, Diane. The best way to change Congress (and the White House) is to pass stringent campaign finance reform. If no one is beholden to the special interests, maybe some real and honest work can get done.

    • who cares

      Diane, Rangel really did’nt do anything wrong. But I agreed on everything else. tax payers should not pay for their socialist medicine or retirement.

      • http://?? Joe H.

        Who cares for brains,
        Just what the heck do YOU call 17 years of not fully paying your taxes??? You do it and you will be UNDER the jail!!!

  • Bob Wire

    interest turn of events for me here,

    I’ve been investigating my market and I see that prices are falling but not because of lower overhead but because if weak demands. Overhead is as high as it’s ever been.

    I’m not sure of what to think or how to react to this.

    It seems clear, this is an attempt to increase demands as my industry struggles. The weakest being the first ones out in front with lower rates, badly needing the cash flow.

    There will come a time, I will be required to make a decision on how to react. As you can price yourself out of business two ways, either too high or too low. I admit, I have offered substantial labor rate concessions recently to the customers I depend on the most, my annual contracted work.

    I’m learned over the years, if the fish are not biting ~ they just not biting and every fish is hard caught or foul hooked.

    For now, I wait ~ waiting to see what insurance and support suppliers do and the weather to change. If big business blinks?

    I’ve got this feeling ~~ I represent millions of small business operator in America today and that are looking at and thinking this same things ~~ this could be seen as just maybe something good.

    It’s not inflation as many have predicted.

    • Vigilant

      Bob,

      We’ve butted heads a number of times on basic philosophy, and a few times we’ve found common ground. I’ve found you to be an interesting and worthy adversary, and unlike many, you are a thinker.

      That being said, I truly hope your business survives and flourishes. We are all looking for a way out of this economic mess, and the small business owner has my unyielding respect. We don’t all agree on how to get there, but we care about each other, and that’s how it should be.

      • Bob Wire

        Thank you Vigilant,

        kind and thoughtful words are rare from you.

        But I’ve read though your stance and understood many of your thoughts over the months and have a clear idea where you are coming from. Finding it necessary to tow the “conservative” line against a democratically stacked house and 1st chair position.

        There are people on both sides of the isle that would be quick and readily take advantage of anything that might be perceived as a “love fest” and we can disagree about HCR all day, while neither of us really like the final outcome.

        Politicians handle and guide through the legislative process large blocks of money. In so doing, they are forewarned as to where and when this money might arrive. This leaves it to their digression whom might know early and be prepared to take full advantage, including themselves and family members. This “reality” brings them money and power, with this power many things can be achieved. ~ and some are better at it then others.

        If you can’t win while your dealing you are not being very effective.

        It’s a nasty game, politics. Much nastier then many might know.

        LBJ could wield power, but he could tell you where your car was parked at 2 am in the morning, he knew who you had lunch with last week. He knew where the bodies were buried and would remind you that he knew. A rascal, he was and a very effective one.

        As for business today ~ it’s being choked off, ~ primarily by lenders I suppose. I keep waiting for someone to blink ~ there sure is a lot of things that need address as we sit parked and getting only leaner in the process. The wealthy knows this and are running out the clock. They can do “nothing” for several years if necessary.

        The wealthy seem to take November and December off as a rule, so I don’t see much happening until business budgets start coming forward in Early February and March of 2011.

        So I see little need to go fish and much need for tighten up and sharping edges knowing it coming and be prepared to make the best of what is there. Capture as much of your market as you can.

        They are still flushing commodes and running Air-conditioners out the somewhere, just like they always have. I’m just not seeing at many.

  • Norm

    In 1982, at the same point in his presidency as President Obama is now, but while jobs were still hemorrhaging and unemployment still rising to 10 percent in a recession, Ronald Reagan enacted the largest tax increase in American history — $100 billion additional taken from individuals and businesses by the Treasury. By January, 1983, Reagan’s approval rating was down to 35 percent, and incidentally, Reagan raised taxes several more times during his tenure.

    By letting the Bush tax cut expire on the top 2 percent it will show domestic and world markets that the U.S. is serious about its long-term deficit problems, and is capable of making tough choices and it does work.

    It worked for Ronald Reagan and Bill Clinton. Together, following their tax increases, nearly 40 million new jobs were created. After Clinton’s 1993 tax increase on the wealthy, job growth began, and by the end of Clinton’s term 23 million new jobs had been created. Bill Clinton even generated budget surpluses.

    Compare it to the nearly 8 million jobs lost under the disastrous George W. Bush’s policies focused on tax cuts for the wealthy and outsourcing millions of jobs overseas. So I question whether “you-can’t-raise-taxes-in-a-recession” might be just a bit overstated.

    Remember when the first Bush ran against Reagan for president he called his tax cuts for the rich, voodoo economics with the trickle down theory. David Stockman, who was Reagan’s budget director then, now says that the tax cuts for the top 2 percent added to the deficits and didn’t create jobs and how right he is and now the same people want to add millions more to the deficits.

    • http://none Mike

      Norm, I beg to differ with you on this point. The rich corperations and brand name people do not really pay any taxes at all. How is this you ask well its called Economics 101. Any time the goverment raises these taxes on the top 1through 10%. They pass these taxes on to the consumer through raiseing prices and cutting cost. The cutting cost is what we are seeing with layoffs and the exportation of jobs to overseas markets.Any time you raise taxes this is going to be one of the effects. The riseing prices in the markets end up affecting the poor the most because they have less disposeable income to bear the prices. More taxes are only going to result in higher prices and even more layoffs. So lets just go head and cut our own throats and raise the taxes on the top 30% too 100% then when they all flee this burning ship we can all decry oh look how bad they are while we wait in line for our goverment cheese and bread. End all payroll based taxes now before its too late people the system is broke. No amout of tinkering with rates are going to fix that. Mike L.

    • http://none Mike

      Also the Name Brand people like Branson,Gates and Buffet know this. Why do you think they are so eager for the govement to step in and raise taxes on the so called rich? Because in the end it will not even effect their bottem lines in the least. They would just raise the prices of their goods and services to compensate for it. Thus the rich get richer and the poor get poorer.All in the name of good sound economic policies.For them at least not for us. Mike L.

    • Patriot

      Most of your facts are false that do not need debate! Lets’ see 10% unemployment and over 20% underemployment now compared to a max. 4.2% unemployment before, unless you feel that larger numbers are better the lower when it comes to unemployment then your logic is messed up. Higher taxes on anyone right now will have devastating consequences on all of us! Higher taxes now will create fewer jobs and will turn this terrible recession into a depression that will make the last one look like a picnic! Please stop listening to the talking points on the mainstream media; we all need to think things through logically, when we are true to the facts we all come to the same conclusions! My conclusion the people that got us in this mess are somehow going to fix it for us they will “Fix it all right!” But, not for the common good! We cannot wake up all the people but maybe some of you for your families’ sake will start to listen before it is too late!

      • http://none Mike

        Patriot, I wish more people would wake up. But I fear with the education the last 2 generations have recived there is nothing left to wake up. I think they are taught from an early age now capitolisim is a dirty word. And the goverment is the only fair way to run things. Young minds full of mush turn into adult minds that cant even comprehend the simplist of logic. Mike L.

      • http://?? Joe H.

        Patriot,
        It is just like Warren Buffet saying that he would be willing to pay more. Here is a man with one foot in the grave and the other on a bananna peel and HE doesn’t mind paying more??? Good let him leave 40% to his family and give the rest to the Government!! See how much he likes that Idea!!!

  • Larry Owens

    More of the same ole BLAH, BLAH from politicians that have bankrupted our country.

    Nothing will change until riots and people that are hurting get feed up and do some thing.

    Our own enemy is our corrupted Gov. and politicians and of course throw in the news media crowd, they all just blow hot air as our country goes down the tubes.

    What a bunch of nuts.

  • http://sonicinfusionintelflight@sonicworld@gophight.org billy bush

    hi your royal magesty,
    seasoned greatings to you all distinguished ladies and gentle men ofthe 21st century aerospace remodified world ..
    distinguished senators , house of reps. department of justice i stand in awe of your amazing dignity to bring to the house good tidings of great harvest of HOLY GOLD RUSH and lithium history to break the history of e” EXTRME DARKNESS and total black- out of the economic disintegration of the UNIVERSAL atmospheric and economical changes.SIR the american underground wealth has gained its prestigious role in the forex BIGIS WORLD……
    low and behold the universal intercontinental african economy is really in a depressive state. ” THE WHITE HOUSE ” AND her administration loves to protect and serve the world EXTREME integtrity and respect.
    thank you congresss
    this is officer high tower
    of the united states

    • Karolyn

      ???????????????????

      • http://none Mike

        Yea I didnt understand that one either. Might be a line from a book somewhere? Would have been better if he had put it in some form of context. Mike L.

    • S.C.Murf

      Please billy make that popping sound!

    • Michael J.

      billy bush,
      Thanks, I didn’t know you could still get LSD.

      • http://?? Joe H.

        Michael J.
        Actually that was Nobummer trying to make sense without his ‘prompter!!!

        • Vigilant

          LOL!

  • http://www.TomBlairEA.com Thomas Avery Blair

    Shame on the federal government and every game player in the House, the Senate and at the White House. They are continuing, just as before, using slight-of-hand “smoke and mirrors” techniques to distract the American taxpayer from realizing is what all this wrangling in congress really amounts to. Be warned that the “HI-Tax” has already been unleashed and no matter what congress does now and in the future really makes no difference at all in the long run.

    Never heard of the “HI-Tax”? That doesn’t surprise me, nor does it surprise most folks familiar with our monetary and taxation systems. It may be best to just let it happen rather than to worry you about it at this late date…but just in case you have any wealth left that you wish to protect…the time is NOW to learn all you can about the “HI-Tax” and what you still have time to do before it turns most folks on Main Street to veritable paupers.

    Just because the “HI-Tax” has never happened in recent history here in the USA is no reason at all to believe that it indeed cannot happen here…and I guarantee 99% of Main Street Americans will never learn of it until it is entirely too late to avoid it.

    If ignorance is bliss…then you may indeed simply choose to remain “bliss-ered” and believe yourself somehow too innocent to suffer the consequences of the “HI-Tax” or…learn what the “HI-Tax is by doing your homework and looking it up on the Internet, and learn also why this talk about the extension of the Bush tax cuts really is just so much chicken poop.

    Isn’t it great to still have the choice of being either uninformed, misinformed, or self-educated? At least food for thought, is it not?

    Respectfully submitted,

    Thomas Avery Blair, EA

    • S.C.Murf

      From what I’ve read the HI-tax you are talking about has been in effect for quite some time here in the U.S.

    • Michael J.

      Mr. Blair,
      Posing as a poster while advertising your busines is at best uncouth, at worst it is reminiscent of a coiled up snake hiding amongst the leaves of a fruit tree.

  • J. D. Coons

    Is everyone crazy here? We know that taxing the wealthy will kill jobs, so to really get the economy moving we should drop the tax rate to zero for those making over $ 250,000 That will be a big kick start . Then we need to increase the tax load on the so-called middle class to about 55-65% to make up for the lost revenue from the upper level tax cut. It makes sense to me and I’ll bet it makes sense to John Boehner too. God bless America.

    • http://?? Joe H.

      J.D. Coons,
      you know I went to school with a guy by the name of Coons, well at least I did till fourth grade when he dropped out!!!! Never went back either!! Heard he ran for office a few years ago under the dem ticket!!

  • Average Joe

    Most people here seem to look at this stuff in black and white (Reps won’t pass it so that Obama fails.. or…Obama is pushing it through now, because he won’t have the votes come January). There is a much bigger issue to consider. This legislation (just like most legislation passed through congress), is not just the “main Bill”….it is most likely filled with 50-100 other “attachments, bills and clauses”added to the mix (you know the pork barrel stuff to garner (buy) a vote?). Now, out of all of those”attachments” some will be good and some will be bad. Do we allow the “bad” legislation through in order to get the “good” ones passed? Even though it is bad, if you vote to approve the whole package, it still becomes law…and from where I sit, bad is…still wrong. Once you allow the first bad thing through, it opens the floodgates for that which follows…which usually is more of the same bad laws and more egregious intrusions on our Constitution.

    Why is it that congress (both Senate and House) can’t seem to pass any legislation without having 2000 plus pages, bound by 50-100 other “pieces” of garbage all piled into one massive piece of legislation …with one or two good things in it and the rest is “bad”? This is what your representatives are being asked to do…vote on the bad stuff in order to get the good stuff passed… meanwhile, America as a nation is losing her sovereignty. Why can congress not write simple bills, in plain English and then vote on those bills based solely on that one single bill…no additives, no pork attachments…nothing but that one single bill? I’ll tell you why. 95% of what is in those big bills that they put together is either pork or finds a new way to take rights away from people and could not be passed if they were brought up on an individual vote because most are Un-Constitutional in the first place. The people who get to slip these little snippets into the legislation do so, by guaranteed votes for someone elses piece of pork or garbage. Both parties claim to be rivals but are standing around between “photo opts” shaking hands and wheeling and dealing to buy each others votes (what’s in for me?). this is what is really going on in D.C.

    Of course the media spin is “Democrats hate the military,vote against military spending”, “Republicans hate old people by refusing to raise Social Security payments” etc…stop buying into the media spin…it truly is not as simple as thy make it out to be. The idea behind the media is to distract us from the big picture…all of the behind the scenes stuff going on in Washington…and to keep us fighting amongst ourselves…United we stand, divided we fall.

    All Legislation, Treaties etc; need to be voted on by the members of congress on a single case by case vote…up or down. No Attachments or riders of any kind! No legislation should be more than 5 pages long (decribing the legislation in plain English) and show where it gets it’s Constitutional authority from….Nothing else will change how Washington does business.

    Many here will argue that this will slow down Congress to a snails pace… I say … that IS what they are paid to do. If things slow down and they don’t pass as much legislation as they’d like to pass…I say great! That’s just less damage that they can do to this nation!

    • Michael J.

      Average Joe,
      The answer to the scenario you describe is “The Line Item Veto”.

      And while you’re at it, learn to just “Say no to Political Correctness”.

      • Average Joe

        Line item veto?…bad idea.Read Chuckb and my reply below.
        Political correctness?….Sorry…I call a spade a spade…PC is for bleeding heart liberal whiners…”Real” people don’t whine….it isn’t pretty.

  • chuckb

    the line item veto is only as good as the man doing the veto, not good.
    we need an up or down vote on every bill, no riders. that’s the only way.
    then congress can be held accountable. if that means anything to partisan people and politicians.

    • Average Joe

      I agree 100%. There it just too much potential for abuse with the line item veto…because any president using it would allow the things he likes while disregarding the things he doesn’t like, which to me circumvents the proper course of events….Congress makes the laws…not the President. If that were the case (President making the law) it would be a dictatorship…..and the last time I checked, we were still a Republic.

      • Michael J.

        Average Joe,
        Perhaps I didn’t make myself clear I abhor Political Correctness.

        As for the line item veto, the president already has limited veto power yet no one would confuse that with dictatorship. Right now bills come to the desk of the president with a mixed bag of proposed legislation, some good, some bad. He is then forced to decide whether or not the good out weigh the bad and pass the bill or veto it and risk throwing the baby out with the bath water. Bills that reach the presidents desk have already gone through an up or down vote as per the founders wishes. A line item veto would allow a president a final culling before passing the legislation and thus saving the tax payer time and money.

        In regards to potential abuse, the onus is on we the people to elect constitutional conservatives who can be trusted with our future. We can only hope that lessons were learned in the last election circus and the fallout that has ensued.

        • Average Joe

          I was simply stating that I too already kick political correctness to the curb. As for the line item veto, if each bill or legislation came to the presidents desk with no riders attached at all…there would be no need for the line item veto. The president would simply sign it or veto it (in which case the congress can override the presidents veto if they so desire). By doing this (one bill, no riders), we eliminate the need for a line item veto.Again, this may slow down congress a bit….which means less damage to the nation as a whole.

  • http://com i41

    When you liberial smucks like karolyn, talk about cutting the military, the branches are already scavaging part ot keep some equipment operational. Just like under Breaver Carter. I have worked for enough construction companies, if the company was scavaging parts off of equipment to keep something moving. It was time to gather tools and look for my own repair shop. You socialists noticed there was not a mention of cutting agency idoits, or cutting programs in college of coloring book contests to teach the students not to drink and do drugs. That was a grant b–l s–t program of wasted grant money. I thought adults were 18 years old, not none stop spoilt brats needing someone to shepard their tails. Also the idea of a military cut, now that would have even more unemployed educated people. As for $250,000 dollars being a business big enough to employ more than 2 people, and that is a mobile processing machine and don’t need property to included in the business. Then It needs to be over a million due to permits and government meddling. socialist want everyone to work for the government under government control. Government overeducted idoits creating more goovernment what a dreamland.

    • Karolyn

      i41 – By cutting the “defense” budget, I’m talking about getting out of where we don’t belong, which would sure save us a hell of a lot of money. Also, I know you’re an oldtimer and understand what I’ve said about kicking out the contractors and having the soldiers go back to doing what they used to do. Why don’t you really read what your responding to instead of going off on one of your incoherent tangients. Half of what you talk about I can’t understand anyway.

  • http://com i41

    Soros, the National Marxist Communist Democrat Union Socialist Party idoit members, the purple lipped, jug eared, marxist muslim moron in Cheif, get tingles all over at the word Dictator run country. As long as it abides under UN mandates. How many has Onumnutts and the Sec of State agreed with the handing over control to the UN dictators? Tax cuts for socialist is confusing, because rhey all beleive in government getting your whole pay check and government giving what they think you need, as spouted by Hillary “the Hussey”!

  • http://com i41

    karolyn, again if I confuse you, it is because I don’t beleive all the socialist B–l s–t you do. When you complain about the defense budget what do you thnk of the mound of money wasted on the DADT faggot crap. Endless hours of hearings for smucks and pollster blather, doing not a damn thing productive. Just thinking their ststitian degree is making them an “expert” on making queers feel cared for.. Noticed one of your exhalted leaders of the democrat socialist party, isn’t getting fined or jailed. Rangel absonded with way more monetary amount than Duke Cunningham ever did and he went to jail where he belongs. Some you corrupt criminal crooked democrats just will not allow it to happen to the black, corrupt Soros lead crimminal to be jailed. think of Cold Cash Jefferson, pay no Taxes Daschle, turbo Geithner, Jessia Walter just to mention a few. That censor for that black rat was a BS side show. He isn’t even being kicked out and declared a felon which he is. I realize with your advanced case of caverous problem, karolyn cutting and gutting any government program or restricting citizen from having to hand over their money to beltway idoits, makes you suck in more liberal s–t. As for the college coloring program, it is a fact,because the women working for the college , who has multi degrees and is clueless on life matters and reality. Wrote for the grant money and was upset because of the drinking and drug use in colleges. Now this Doctorate degreed overeducated licenced phycologist, is teaching college kids to color pictures and talk about why they drink and their feelings. When a hell of a drunk driving fine a agood a$$ kicking by their parents or jail bird mates, would have been a lot cheaper and more useful. Ever since I have known this democrat liberial which is over 30 years. all she has done is go to college,talk s–t. She doesn’t understand what laws are on the books, or even watch news or read anything on politics and government.. She thinks killing criminals is barbaric and beating someone a$$ for being stupid is just terrible. She has lots of money and property and thinks everyone can do just what they want and government money costs nothing. As you might guess she was a Communist McGovern supporter and is an anti wars supporter. She claims she has never voted a republican and is so impressed with Onumnutts and his book training and speech. So who do you think is starting to whine about taxes and healthcare costs when her liberal husband and son are both doctors, they are. They cann’t do a damn thing but theorize and produce nothing. So now when every we cross paths and they want advice on buildings or mechanics, or any ordinary blue collar skills, I have no problem letting them know I’m giving them a break with no appointment charge of $25 a hr. I like the whine but they get hoosed even more if they go to shop. The jungle gym choolate muslim is identical to these dinks. Iknow you are planning on going to college, I hope you use your own money not everyone tax money. So what other facts have I muddles you gentle mind with karolyn? I am always pleased to see you name show up for some redundant democrat stupidity talking points to discuss.

    • Karolyn

      So, i41, you are better than people who are different than you! That’s what you believe. I can’t say it often enough. “We are all unique individuals!” There is room for everybody! You are so self-righteous it’s ridiculous. The reason I can’t understand half of what you say is because of your spelling and punctuation. I can’t tell where one thought ends and another begins. And I know you can do better because I’ve seen it. You’re in just such a hurry to blast me or Flashman or Eddie, that your fingers can’t keep up with your thinking. Did you ever stop to think that you could be wrong? I know, you haven’t done that because in your mind, that’s not possible. I admit I don’t know everything and I also admit when I’m wrong.

      I have known people like you. As a matter of fact, I lived with one for 18 years. I know him well enough to know that when he blasts others, it’s to lift himself up. People like you and him just KNOW EVERYTHING and give nobody else room to know ANYTHING.

      I’m glad I give you food for attack.

      • http://?? Joe H.

        Karolyn,
        while I don’t always agree with i41, you ask him to do something you aren’t willing to do! When the heck have YOU ever considered that YOU could be wrong???? Oh, you make a couple of concilatory remarks, but then you are right back with the same BS, time and time again!! Don’t ask somebody to do something unless you are truely ready to do it yourself!

        • Karolyn

          Joe, You don’t know what goes on in my head. Since joining this site, my thinking has changed some, and I do understand more and more of what you guys say. I never have claimed to have all of the answers – Nobody can! I have always said that I do give the other side the benefit of the doubt. I do not think that can be said of i41. I’ve said over and over that I do not believe everything is black or white, but shades of grey. That’s why I always talk compromise.

          • S.C.Murf

            Karolyn, I believe that is what has gotten us into trouble, the gray area. You see it is either good or evil, right or wrong, black or white. God said no to compromise. When one starts to compromise with evil we start to lose immediately.

  • Bob Wire

    There’s two side to every story 41 ~ you only listen to one. I see little need in chase down all your “talking points”

    Educated people annoy you, you’ve make that perfectly clear many times, you are perfect GOP material to be shaped and molded. They depend on people like yourself to carry their water and you do it well.

  • Mick

    Bob Wire says:
    December 4, 2010 at 7:40 am
    There’s two side to every story 41 ~ you only listen to one. I see little need in chase down all your “talking points”

    Educated people annoy you, you’ve make that perfectly clear many times, you are perfect GOP material to be shaped and molded. They depend on people like yourself to carry their water and you do it well.

    ************************************
    Bob…..How do you explain educated now days ??

    I personally would put my trust in people with knowledge from real life experiences versus the so called knowledge shoved down people’s throats by educators with phony degrees bought or obtained fraudulently also topped with superior arrogance, no moral principles and no common sense.

    • Michael J.

      Mick,
      Education is a replacement word for indoctrination to progressive liberal socialist. They have a monkey in their brain and they don’t even know it. The generational work of brainwashing is so engrained in them, they don’t even know they are victims. The work of the communist subversionist was and is pure genius. (evil genius that is)

      • Mick

        Michael J. says:
        December 4, 2010 at 9:48 am
        Mick,
        Education is a replacement word for indoctrination to progressive liberal socialist. They have a monkey in their brain and they don’t even know it. The generational work of brainwashing is so engrained in them, they don’t even know they are victims. The work of the communist subversionist was and is pure genius. (evil genius that is)
        *************************************
        Michael …..Can’t argue with that !! Been saying that for years and have been trying to open some eyes but mostly to no avail, if it says EDUCATION it must be good,……… NOT………………

        • Michael J.

          Hey Mick,
          See all that down there? Musta said something that cut close to the bone, otherwise it wouldn’ta generated all them educated words.

          • Karolyn

            Sittin’ here just shakin’ my head at your response. Sad.

      • Bob Wire

        perception is everything, You make my case vividly clear.

        Thank You

        All self validating option, no examples, no support, no boundaries, no perimeters , words from the Burning Bush. ” Take off your shoes! You stand on Holy ground!”

        Such pious statements superseded only my appreciation for humor.

        • Michael J.

          Bob Wire,
          So glad to oblige, yall come back now, ya hear.

  • Bob Wire

    Mick, this mind set is common inside “some circles” it’s true ~and with due consideration there is “some” grounds for it. Especially when we seen people the likes of D1ck Chaney, Karl Rove and Donald Ashcroft jerking military Brass around as if they might know more about military matter and be most willing to turn a deaf ear to professional council.

    If anyone believes they know more then the professions that have taken the time and effort to develop their talents and skill and applied the knowledge more power to you. But I don’t want you running my railroad.

    And as for education, it’s not a give -me, it doesn’t come in a bottle or tablet and it’s never been “what to think” but “how to think” ~ there is a huge difference.

    Education has never been a process of forcing things down people throats and if you had ever been exposed to any educational pursuits, you would know this and there would be no need for this explanation.

    People that are bright and have achieved an education understand the need to listen to others and absorb data. There is no ego, there is little need for ego, or some overwhelming need to proving oneself to be correct. The data speaks for itself.

    You don’t see lawyers doing plumbing and repairing cars. You don’t see Air-conditioning men defending themselves in a court of law or administering to the national Security issues.

    Let me retract that, you see it sometimes as there are people that do believe as you, but the end results is rarely good but with any luck let it be them alone to accept their rewards.

    It’s not to say, all of our politicians are exceptionally bright but few are the dummies you attempt to make them out to be.

    It’s should come as no surprise a good Rancher don’t always make a good Farmer.

    To avoid the pitfalls and fallacy of circular reasoning, notions that “all drunks are not painters but all painters are drunks” or “I had to have the gun to get the gold, I had to have the gold to get the girl” or “Tax & Spend” requires disciplined rational thought. Something that only education AND experience provides.

    I am self educated, having dropped out in my senior year, ~ but I still consider myself a student even today and have continued to apply myself with advanced and continued educational classes by the score, too numbered to mention and my ego offers little need to list.

    I respect and admire people that took the long road and applied themselves. I enjoy their conversation and company as much as I might enjoy listen to an old coal miner tell of his days working in the mine( when I’m lucky enough to find one still alive)

    This attitude of putting down “the educated” is as bad as attacking the “wealthy” and will serve to no good.

    I feel this desired to paint “O” as a disconnected,born entitled,elite, Ivy League egg head named Poindexter has turned your brain to mush and really isn’t working for you or i41

    Saying all of that, there is no substitute for experience. BUT Durskson, Tip O’Neil, LBJ, Hightower, some of the old giants are no longer with us today and we’ve got to go with what we’ve got on hand.

    If I could dig one up to throw in the ring today it’d be old Hickory but if a pig had wings it’d fly.

    • Karolyn

      Bob, I really never saw the need for an advanced education until I tried re-entering the job market at 57. I was fortunate to eventually find a wonderful job that fit my education, abilities and sensibilities; however, prior to getting that job, I was having a helluva time even though I had at the time 40 years experience. When I had to leave that job and moved to SC, it was even worse. Lack of a degree, coupled with rampant nepotism left me flat. Once I found out I could receive a government grant, I did decide to go to school at our little commmunity college. So, here I am, at 63, back in school. I too never stopped educating myself throughout my life and consider myself to be quite learned and literate.

      As to my experience in school now, I can tell you that it is far from the “indoctrination” being spoken of here. I have one instructor, a Ph.d., who has been everything from a welder to a prison guard and who provides a very interesting array of viewpoints. Nowhere in my classes thus far has anything been “pushed down my throat.” Prior to starting back, I thought I knew everything; but I find myself learning more and more every day. Like kids everywhere, many of the kids I go to school with have no clue and are just starting out. I have found them to be plain old country kids with country upbringing who are getting their first taste of a lot of viewpoints. We all need to be exposed to many different views and then make our own choices.

      As far as the references to educators as “…educators with phony degrees bought or obtained fraudulently also topped with superior arrogance, no moral principles and no common sense” (Mick). Having no experience around educators, how can one come to those conclusions other than by what one reads and hears from others? I am consistently angered by those claiming that liberals have no morals or common sense. What’s up with that? Besides, there really are conservative teachers! Wow!

      My friend has two in school, one 13 and the other 7; and they don’t seem any different than any other kids I’ve ever met through my life. The schools are doing the best they can with limited budgets; and I don’t see the kids being “indoctrinated.” The methods may be advanced, but they’re learning just about the same stuff as we did, although there is more emphasis placed on technology.

      All this blanket judging of education as being socialist and evil is baseless. I believe if there is a problem with education in this country, it lies more with the parents rather than the educators. Every child can choose how he or she wishes to think, just like it’s always been. If they are raised well, they make better choices. Very…simple.

      I would ask those judging if they have first-hand experience with schooling today. I would venture to guess that for the most part, they do not. As I said, they are just parroting what they have heard from others.

      • Norm

        Karolyn
        I received an ASEE degree at 25, a BSEE degree at 32 and a MSCS degree at 45. I was married at 22(and still am to a great woman) and we have 2 successful kids, both college grads. My employers and the VA paid for my first 2 degrees and my company paid for the last. I worked full time throughout.
        I’ve worked at every Engineering level from Aide to Senior Research Engineer.
        Anyone who thinks education isn’t the best investment you can make is a fool. Most of the criticism of education comes from the uneducated.
        There some educated idiots to be sure. GW Bush is a good example. The truth is that education can never hurt anyone. In the medical and scientific disciplines there are essential facts that can only be acquired in the classroom.

        • JeffH

          Normy, you’re a good example of an educated idiot as well as Bush. You’ve bragged quite regularly about how educated you are and how everyone else but yourself is illiterate and ignorant.

          I guess Bush trumped ya though on the educated idiot deal. President and a lucrative book deal?

          • Norm

            JeffH
            Yes I am proud of my accomplishments. I worked hard and was fairly rewarded.
            Unlike Bush I didn’t have a daddy to buy me into Harvard or get me into pilot training in the ANG. I did it my way with help from friends and family.
            What’s your story big man. Did you make it through high school?

          • Bob Wire

            Granted “W” got an education ~ but a far cry from “stellar” I don’t think it “took”

            Education: Attended Phillips Academy prep school at Andover, then Yale from 1964 until 1968 and graduated with a major in history; played baseball during freshman year and rugby during junior and senior years; became a member of the super-secret Skull and Bones society, following in the footsteps of his father and grandfather; later attended Harvard and earned a Masters of Business Administration in 1975. Bush was such a mediocre student that the dean of students at Andover was pessimistic about his chances of getting into Yale. The suggested that he have a backup option. Harvard Business school was a backup option that he had to take advantage of after the University of Texas law school turned him down. Harvard alums say the admissions process was somewhat mysterious. One of Bush’s Harvard classmates was a circus barker.

          • JeffH

            Normy says: “What’s your story big man. Did you make it through high school?”

            Again, you just confirmed what I said, again! All that education can’t cover your ignorace

    • http://?? Joe H.

      Barb Wire,
      I too dropped out to join the service. Got my GED and went to college after the army. I have my degree thanks to the GI bill! If you dropped out in your senior year and never went back, then what do you base your opinion that education isn’t a crammed-down-your-throat application??? I had three different proffessors that said that it is their way no matter if it is right or wrong! now what is that? I also had a proffessor, mr so and so that came back the next year as MRS so and so!! He/she had a nervous breakdown and left the college even though the college said he didn’t have to leave!!

      • Karolyn

        Well, I am sure there are conservative professors who do the same. It really doesn’t matter who teaches. It’s up to the individual to take what they want and leave the rest while deciding who they want to be. You had liberal professors and look how you turned out. (Ew, maybe I shouldn’t have said that!) And who cares about the transgendered professor? What does that have to do with anything?

      • Bob Wire

        I understand were you are coming from Joe, I have a English Lit Professor I could have chocked to death. ~ Now, I look at it as she was an obstacle I had to learn to overcome.

        While I couldn’t fathom her interpretation, or offer her, her correct answer but she was teaching the class and not I. This was the lesson, to deal with conflict and overwhelming odds. The process of resolve and resolution in disagreement. It was a mind game, much like today’s mind game we play. There is no single one correct answer.

        • Michael J.

          Bob Wire,
          You repeatedly make my point without even realizing when you say things like:

          “It was a mind game, much like today’s mind game we play. There is no single one correct answer”.

          Everything is questioned today in Academia. Lots and lots of questions, but no firm answers. How does this provide students with a terra firma building block based on reality to construct their lives or raise a family if they so desire?

          I read just a while back about a theory that claimed that reality actually takes place during the time we spend sleeping and our waking hours are the real fantasy land and is why youngters should not be too concerned about events happening in times of consciousness because after all we are just dreaming, it’s not real. (i.e. Columbine massacre) Would you be shocked to learn that your children were being taught this nonsense?

          The issue here is not the aquisition of good or well paying jobs, but instead the future of western civilization. What we are witnessing is the engineered breakdown and ultimate destruction of our beloved culture that was paid for with the blood, sweat and tears of our ancestors. This scourge has infiltrated every aspect of our lives including Academia (which was it’s first target), Media, Hollywood and of course Politics.

          The scourge I am refering to is of course, “Political Correctness”.
          It’s a term that has evolved with a built in self defense mechanism, to oppose or even question it has become taboo for fear of being labeled a racist or a hate monger. The designers of this cancerous malignancy, who in 1920′s Germany haled from a place called The Frankfurt School and were themselves devoted followers of Karl Marx.

          The stated goals of “Political Correctness” as prescribed by the desciples of Karl Marx in that dank, dark Socialist think tank known as The Frankfurt School in 1920′s Germany were and are as follows:

          1. The creation of racial tension via covincing minorities that they have been opressed.
          2. Continual change to create confusion and the eventual collapse in cutural continuity.
          3. The teaching of sex and homosexuality to children.
          4. The teaching of abstract reality with no definitive right or wrong.
          5. The undermining of schools’ and teachers’ authority.
          6. Huge immigration to destroy sovereign identity.
          7. The promotion of excessive consumption of drugs and alcohol.
          8. Emptying of churches through persistent critisism of church values and symbols.
          9. An unreliable/corrupt legal system with bias against victims of crime
          10. Dependency on the state and state entitlements.
          11. Control and dumbing down of media.
          12. Encouraging the breakdown of the family.

          One of the main ideas of the Frankfurt School was to exploit Freud’s idea of ‘pansexualism’ – the search for pleasure, the exploitation of the differences between the sexes, the overthrowing of traditional relationships between men and women. To further their aims they would:

          * Attack the authority of the father, deny the specific roles of father and mother, and wrestle away from families their rights as primary educators of their children. (demonize home schooling)
          * Abolish differences in the education of boys and girls.
          * Abolish right and wrong boundaries. This has a paralytic affect on individuals and denies a person the ability to make descisions.
          * Abolish all forms of male dominance – hence the presence of women in the armed forces.
          * Declare women and minorities to be an ‘oppressed class’ and white men as ‘oppressors’.

          Munzenberg, one of the founding members summed up the Frankfurt School’s long-term operation this way:
          ‘We will make the West so corrupt that it stinks.’

          Any of this sounding familiar yet? The parellels with our present day society are mind boggling.

          In the 1930′s the Frankfurt School Communist became too radical even for Hitler who banished them into exile. The group landed in of all places, Columbia University, New York where they set up shop until after the war in Europe was over. Before they moved back to Germany in the 1950′s they managed to create in their own image and likenees a few people whose names have recently become significant such as Saul Alinsky and Cloward & Piven whose plans for Progressive Marxism were obviously cast from the original set of goals prescribed by the Frankfurt School scholars.

          Here is a video that explains in detail the origins and goals of “Political Correctness”
          http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qyu-9-OhHog

          After you’ve absorbed all that, Take a look at this video for an in depth look at how Communist Subversion works and the reason why those indoctrinated individuals are oblivious to the truth even when it’s presented to them in black and white.
          http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RS8LA-5fmrs

        • http://?? Joe H.

          Barb wire,
          how do you overcome while she holds the GRADE in her hand??? The best you can do is either abandon your ideals or flunk!!

          • Bob Wire

            Joe, we accept the fact that we are not robbing the train ~ at the moment. And if we do hold ambitions of ever becoming a train robber and dominating the day, we work for the position and title, much like every other train robber that came before.

            Silence is not consent , Silence is not validation or approval.

            That’s to say ~Choose your battles, the ones that need to be fought and the ones you think you can win. Timing and preparation is everything. Education should help with this if you are a true student of history. Losers are not know for writing much history.

            Communism is all but dead today with only a few pockets of resistance scattered about the globe.

            The threats we face today has a new name and is just a evil.

          • Michael J.

            Bob Wire,
            You said:
            “Communism is all but dead today with only a few pockets of resistance scattered about the globe.”

            This is a list of Communist organizations operating inside the United States.

            All-African People’s Revolutionary Party (A-APRP)

            Alliance Marxist-Leninist (North America)

            American Indian Movement – Grand Governing Council (AIM-GGC)

            American Indian Movement – International Federation of Autonomous Chapters (AIM-IFAC)

            Barrio Union (Unión del Barrio)

            Black Radical Congress (BRC)

            Committee for a Unified Independent Party (CUIP)

            Committees of Correspondence for Democracy and Socialism (CCDS)

            Communist Party of the USA (CPUSA)

            Communist Voice Organization

            Democratic Socialists of America (DSA)

            For a Better World

            Freedom Road Socialist Organization [Fight Back] (FRSO)

            Freedom Road Socialist Organization [Freedom Road] (FRSO)

            Freedom Socialist Party (FSP)

            Green Party of the United States, mirror page, other page

            Heatwave Communist-Anarchist Federation (Heatwave CAF)

            Independent Progressive Politics Network (IPPN)

            Industrial Workers of the World (IWW)

            International Socialist Organization (ISO)

            Internationalist Group

            Internationalist Notes, other page, Los Angeles Workers Voice

            Labor Party (LP)

            Labor Standard, mirror page

            Labor’s Militant Voice, mirror page

            League for the Revolutionary Party (LRP)

            League of Revolutionaries for a New America (LRNA)

            Left Green Network

            Left Party

            Left Turn

            Maoist Internationalist Movement (MIM)

            National Black United Front (NBUF)

            New Democracy

            New Liberty Party

            New Party

            New Union Party

            News & Letters Committees

            Organizing Committee for the Program of Permanent Revolution

            Peace and Freedom Party (PFP), periodical Partisan Prairie Fire Organizing Committee (PFOC)

            Progressive Labor Party (PLP), other page

            Progressive ProAction Party

            Revolutionary Communist Party (RCP) periodical Revolutionary Worker

            Revolutionary Workers League (RWL)

            Social Democrats USA (SDUSA)

            Socialist Action

            Socialist Alternative

            Socialist Equality Party (SEP)

            Socialist Labor Party (SLP)

            Socialist Organizer

            Socialist Party USA (SPUSA)

            Socialist Workers Organization (SWO) periodical Socialist Viewpoint

            Socialist Workers’ Party (SWP) periodical Militant Solidarity, mirror page

            The Greens/Green Party USA, mirror page

            United People’s Party (La Raza Unida Party)

            United States Pacifist Party (USPP)

            Unity Organizing Committee (UOC) unofficial page

            US Marxist-Leninist Organization (USMLO) periodical Voice of Revolution

            Vermont Progressive Party

            Workers Democracy Network

            Workers International League (WIL), youth organization

            Workers Party U.S.A.

            Workers Solidarity Alliance (WSA)

            Workers World Party (WWP)

            Working Families Party (WFP)

            World Socialist Party of the United States (WSPUS)

            ———————————————————

            Bob, once again you’ve put your foot in your mouth. Continue as you are and you may contract foot in mouth disease. You may want to consider a safer form of insertion.

            P.S. Please note that I have listed only the communist organizations operating in the U.S. The worldwide list is akin to the number of stars in the sky.

          • Bob Wire

            Okay Michael , ~ you got me ~ I was thinking more about governments of nation rather the “clubs” ~ but didn’t qualify my statement.

            I’d looked into a few and attempted to find membership numbers ~ seems they wish to keep it a secret.

            Still, I’d guess there more gun clubs.

    • Mick

      Bob Wire says:
      December 4, 2010 at 11:03 am
      Mick, this mind set is common inside “some circles” it’s true ~and with due consideration there is “some” grounds for it. Especially when we seen people the likes of D1ck Chaney, Karl Rove and Donald Ashcroft jerking military Brass around as if they might know more about military matter and be most willing to turn a deaf ear to professional council.

      If anyone believes they know more then the professions that have taken the time and effort to develop their talents and skill and applied the knowledge more power to you. But I don’t want you running my railroad.

      And as for education, it’s not a give -me, it doesn’t come in a bottle or tablet and it’s never been “what to think” but “how to think” ~ there is a huge difference.

      Education has never been a process of forcing things down people throats and if you had ever been exposed to any educational pursuits, you would know this and there would be no need for this explanation.

      People that are bright and have achieved an education understand the need to listen to others and absorb data. There is no ego, there is little need for ego, or some overwhelming need to proving oneself to be correct. The data speaks for itself.

      You don’t see lawyers doing plumbing and repairing cars. You don’t see Air-conditioning men defending themselves in a court of law or administering to the national Security issues.

      Let me retract that, you see it sometimes as there are people that do believe as you, but the end results is rarely good but with any luck let it be them alone to accept their rewards.

      It’s not to say, all of our politicians are exceptionally bright but few are the dummies you attempt to make them out to be.

      It’s should come as no surprise a good Rancher don’t always make a good Farmer.

      To avoid the pitfalls and fallacy of circular reasoning, notions that “all drunks are not painters but all painters are drunks” or “I had to have the gun to get the gold, I had to have the gold to get the girl” or “Tax & Spend” requires disciplined rational thought. Something that only education AND experience provides.

      I am self educated, having dropped out in my senior year, ~ but I still consider myself a student even today and have continued to apply myself with advanced and continued educational classes by the score, too numbered to mention and my ego offers little need to list.

      I respect and admire people that took the long road and applied themselves. I enjoy their conversation and company as much as I might enjoy listen to an old coal miner tell of his days working in the mine( when I’m lucky enough to find one still alive)

      This attitude of putting down “the educated” is as bad as attacking the “wealthy” and will serve to no good.

      I feel this desired to paint “O” as a disconnected,born entitled,elite, Ivy League egg head named Poindexter has turned your brain to mush and really isn’t working for you or i41

      Saying all of that, there is no substitute for experience. BUT Durskson, Tip O’Neil, LBJ, Hightower, some of the old giants are no longer with us today and we’ve got to go with what we’ve got on hand.

      If I could dig one up to throw in the ring today it’d be old Hickory but if a pig had wings it’d fly.

      *********************************
      Bob Wire,,,,I somehow knew that Your explanation would be a lengthy one, it comes within the territory of today’s education while the simple uncomplicated tasks to solve problems are overcast by a battery of extended vocabulary designed to confuse the public, our Congress is the perfect example of that allowing them to put the wool over people’s eyes.
      One problem that always frustrated me is the fact that the overly educated ones always manage to keep the general population in the dark by clouding the issues then wonder why many folks don’t understand what’s going on.
      I am not putting down the well educated as much as I would love to see people being educated starting with the basics with the understanding of room for improvement then by all means, move on up.
      Don’t worry Bob I wouldn’t dare try running your rail road , too many curves in it.

      • Bob Wire

        Well? thanks for your indulgence Mick.

        Words express hues and tones that can be used to express views and concepts , painting pictures with great detail and accuracy ~ or not.

        otherwise ~ all cats are seen as just gray in the dark.

        The more lacking one is found ~ just grunts seem to work as well.

  • Bob Wire

    “I would ask those judging if they have first-hand experience with schooling today. I would venture to guess that for the most part, they do not. As I said, they are just parroting what they have heard from others.”

    My experience tells me the same thing Karolyn .

    I’ve bit off more then I could chew several times ,finding intense study and scheduled papers and reports overwhelming. Making me feel very dumb at times ~ especially when fellow students are keeping up and you seem to be in a tail spin.

    I loved it though, and have finally accepted my limits ~ I’m just not as quick and smart as I previously thought.

    I plan to go back this fall for another beating, ~ which reminds me , I need to get on it quick.

    “I am consistently angered by those claiming that liberals have no morals or common sense. What’s up with that? Besides, there really are conservative teachers! Wow!”

    I’m at a lose with that myself Karloyn, hadn’t a clue where it comes from. It’s a perception but rooted in “what”, only the perceived might offer explanation.

    Like so many things that floats around that makes little sense, like “Tax and Spend” ?? the statement really doesn’t mean anything or is it a multiple choice question? How might it apply to the DNC exclusive and not the GOP?

    Well, ~ good luck with your studies. Some of these kids are really bright ! you put some worldly experience on top of such minds it’s quite a combination.

  • JeffH

    Say it ain’t so Joe said “I just don’t agree with the folks who’ve said we can’t afford a lifeline for Americans who lost their jobs during the worst recession in generations, but we can afford to borrow hundreds of billions of dollars to extend tax cuts for the wealthiest two percent,”.

    And the VP continues to say stupid things. You DON’T borrow money to extend a tax cut! You borrow because you’re spending more than you have. Just say it Mr. Biden, those of you in DC can’t control spending so you must confiscate more wealth. The solution is pretty simple, control spending and then you won’t need to pit rich against poor. You spout equality and fairness, but single out a particular group of Americans, yes the wealthy, to pay for everything.

    .

    • http://?? Joe H.

      JeffH,
      Was that aimed at me?? Perhaps I missed something?

      • JeffH

        JoeH..Joe “Bite Me” Biden was the culprit!

        • http://?? Joe H.

          sorry, guess I wasn’t paying attention. Sorta went over my head!!( now watch the libbies have a field day with that one!!!)

  • Michael J.

    Is higher learning over rated?

    Todays eduzealots have done a truly awful thing to serious human capital conversations and analyses around employment. By vociferously championing higher education as key to economic success like nauseating, holier than thou snivets, they’ve distorted important public policy debates about how and why people get hired and paid well.
    By standing on high, peering down their noses they’ve undermined useful arguments about “street smarts” versus “book smarts.” Treating education as the best proxy for human capital is like using patents as your proxy for measuring innovation… Hogwash, its underlying logic shouldn’t obscure the fact that you’ll underweigh market leaders like WalMart, Google, Tata and Toyota. Dare I point out that Microsoft’s Bill Gates, Dell’s Michael Dell, Apple’s Steve Jobs, Oracle’s Larry Ellison and Facebook’s Mark Zuckerberg are all college drop-outs? Or the fact that they employ armies of college grads under their collective wings, and that they have managed to surpass these individuals without the benefit of higher learning.
    The point isn’t to declare a college degree antithetical to launching a high-tech juggernaut but to observe that, perhaps, higher education is niether essential nor the key element to effective entrepreneurship.

    The bottom line is that boys will be boys and entrepreneurs will be entrepreneurs. Higher education is no guarantee of success for a loser, and winners won’t be held back without it. Society’s pathfinders do not require and are not burdened by a lack of oral, written, digital or virtual roadmaps, but instead find their own way instinctively.

    • Mick

      Michael J. says:
      December 4, 2010 at 8:07 pm
      Is higher learning over rated?

      Todays eduzealots have done a truly awful thing to serious human capital conversations and analyses around employment. By vociferously championing higher education as key to economic success like nauseating, holier than thou snivets, they’ve distorted important public policy debates about how and why people get hired and paid well.
      By standing on high, peering down their noses they’ve undermined useful arguments about “street smarts” versus “book smarts.” Treating education as the best proxy for human capital is like using patents as your proxy for measuring innovation… Hogwash, its underlying logic shouldn’t obscure the fact that you’ll underweigh market leaders like WalMart, Google, Tata and Toyota. Dare I point out that Microsoft’s Bill Gates, Dell’s Michael Dell, Apple’s Steve Jobs, Oracle’s Larry Ellison and Facebook’s Mark Zuckerberg are all college drop-outs? Or the fact that they employ armies of college grads under their collective wings, and that they have managed to surpass these individuals without the benefit of higher learning.
      The point isn’t to declare a college degree antithetical to launching a high-tech juggernaut but to observe that, perhaps, higher education is niether essential nor the key element to effective entrepreneurship.

      The bottom line is that boys will be boys and entrepreneurs will be entrepreneurs. Higher education is no guarantee of success for a loser, and winners won’t be held back without it. Society’s pathfinders do not require and are not burdened by a lack of oral, written, digital or virtual roadmaps, but instead find their own way instinctively.
      **************************************
      BRAVO Michael……….You can stand against the best of them…

      • Bob Wire

        well , I surly don’t feel snub by the educated as you seem to. But I agree with the notion that too many people are waiting for someone to give them a job!

        When they really need to just find a demand and fill it. Serve somebody! Sell something.

        Only a few times in my life that I ever had a good job, people that was willing to pay me what it was worth to do. I know of people that have good jobs and their reward great but I find them rare. I never work for AIG or Bell Helicopter or Haliburton or Rockwell or any blue chip firm.

        I gave up trying years ago ~ and have never looked back since.

        But to be straight talking , It’s not all about hard work. If you work your fingers to the bone, you will end up with bony fingers and that about all you will ever have

        Like old man Rockefeller of Standard oil, one day he decided to go into the barrel production business and corner the market on barrels,he controlled the barrels and who got them.

        Someone is always attempting to cut you out of the game and it doesn’t matter how hard you work. So people learned to organize and become a force to be contended with. They form interest groups and help politician get elected and in turn laws are made that favor their interest.

        You got to know your place, where your tail is at and what you can push and get away with and what you can’t.

        It goes well beyond any understanding of what’s considered to be just “Hard Work”

        Some people are better at this then others and do well and some just have bony fingers and are looking for a job.

        • Karolyn

          YES, YES, AND YES! I especially liked what you said about “bony fingers.” Hard work does not necessarily pay off in the end. Most highly successul people got there because they lived their dreams.

      • Michael J.

        Thanks Mick,
        I am now convinced that the Edu-zealots type with their tails. Since my comments have caused them to tuck their tails between their legs, they are no longer able to reply.

        • Bob Wire

          better spacing in your composition would help.

          • Michael J.

            Bob Wire,
            T h a n k s, I’ l l w o r k o n s p a c i n g.

          • Bob Wire

            Not attempting to be anal with you, but people that read a lot depend on better spacing then what you seem to offer. I’ll gladly read your short post but I’ve not the time to dig through 25 lines that’s all running together. I rarely read i41 for the same reason.

            I’m not asking for proper paragraph structure, Opening statement, support, conclusion and summary but simple spacing or punctuation. You want it read?

            Do as you wish but don’t expect replies or complain about no reply’s.

            It’s not as important to me as it should be to you. As a friend, I’m telling you you have a bugger on the end of your nose. Now, you can be angry with me and wear it all day or remove it.

          • Michael J.

            Bob Wire,
            Thanks for the personal hygiene tip. As far as punctuation goes, I’ll try to be on time from now on.

        • Karolyn

          WTF are you talking about? I responded to you immediately.

          • Bob Wire

            directed to Michael, Karolyn ~ must have posted at the same time?

    • Karolyn

      You are absolutely right! I certainly believe that my 37 years experience was worth more than anybody’s BA when I was looking for a job. Unfortunately, “they” have made it so that having a degree is getting to be like having a diploma. Our community colleges around here are also technical colleges, teaching trades and nursing, which there need to be more of.

  • Howard Roark

    Remember when New York State tried this. taxing the rich was supposed to bring in millions. instead the State lost millions because the rich took their money and moved to more friendly states with no state income tax. like florida and nevada.

    Donald Trumph recently talked about this and he said “I know these people. (the rich) and wether the rich live in the United States or Switzerland makes no difference to them. the interviewer commented that Mr. Trumph had not left the country to which Mr. Trumph said “NOT YET”

    I have had liberals ask me, do you really think that they will leave because of a hike of only a few more percentage points of tax. Liberals do not grasp the concept that five percent of five million is more than five percent of the average americans income.liberals also have a deep seated belief that successful people that worked harder and longer hours for THEIR MONEY are somehow responsible for supporting their misserable asses.

    • Karolyn

      Speaking of Trump, have you heard he is talking about possibly running for President?

      • Bob Wire

        I’d enjoy seeing that happen. he’s bring forward a solid track record for winning. Would he work for all American interest or just a few?

      • Michael J.

        Karolyn,
        The only way Trump would do a good job as president of the United States is if he owned the country, God forbid. He doesn’t, so he wouldn’t.

        • libertytrain

          Actually, there are a lot of folks I’d like for him to say: “You’re Fired.” to — IF he were president.

          • http://?? Joe H.

            Amen my friend!!!

          • Bob Wire

            Well, he’s a heavy hitter I’d like on my team, but he can’t be the team.

    • Mick

      Howard Roark says:
      December 5, 2010 at 7:01 am
      Remember when New York State tried this. taxing the rich was supposed to bring in millions. instead the State lost millions because the rich took their money and moved to more friendly states with no state income tax. like florida and nevada.

      Donald Trumph recently talked about this and he said “I know these people. (the rich) and wether the rich live in the United States or Switzerland makes no difference to them. the interviewer commented that Mr. Trumph had not left the country to which Mr. Trumph said “NOT YET”

      I have had liberals ask me, do you really think that they will leave because of a hike of only a few more percentage points of tax. Liberals do not grasp the concept that five percent of five million is more than five percent of the average americans income.liberals also have a deep seated belief that successful people that worked harder and longer hours for THEIR MONEY are somehow responsible for supporting their misserable asses.
      ********************************************
      Ohhhh Howard ,I do want people like you in my corner……….Well said.

  • Howard Roark

    Karolyn:
    Mr Trumph is definitely considering running.he has business savvy and is capable of converting that knowledge into running the Govt. for example he days that he would start charging protection fees to all of the Governments around the world where we have military bases etc. such as South Korea, Germany etc.

  • Bob Wire

    ” Liberals do not grasp the concept that five percent of five million is more than five percent of the average Americans income.”

    They don’t? Hmm? I kinda think they do, especially the 5 mill part.

    I can’t help but think your stereotyping of Liberals, what they think and what they do and why they do is somehow attached to the lowest common denominator of trailer trash and so general in nature it impedes your ability to even discuss politics in a meaningful way.

    It makes me wonder what kind of neighborhood and environment might have came together to created such ideas and notions about democrats?

    I have a few customers like that, they live in small frame houses and work in middle management positions. They are not from here, but somewhere else. They came to Texas because of employment opportunities, now the states is overrun with them after 25 years of taking in needy strays. They left their Red states to come here, ~ we were once a blue state but now we are a red state like the state they left.

    Texas is in the tank! been in the tank ever since we went “RED” and it appears that the state is coming after us again to make up the budget short fall with fees and penalties.

    City cops are out in force these days, enforcing the LAW, don’t be diving over any white lines, city government has turned predatory as now we have cameras ~ that record every traffic infraction and mail you a citation. We have trash police and code enforcement platoons that prowl the streets and back alleys looking for evil doers! People putting out their garbage cans too early or placing things in the recycle that’s not permitted.

    Gone is the peace and restful urban setting I grew up in, where kids could walk or ride bikes to school. There is no bike racks at the school house anymore. Gone are the clear sky morning as the Dallas monoxide haze blocks the sun until 9 am on still morning.

    “A Texas budget shortfall as high as $25 billion is projected as lawmakers head into the 2011 legislative session, according to estimates from economists and the comptroller’s office. Texas writes budgets biennially, or in two-year terms, so the shortfall affects the 2012-2013 state budget.

    Leadership in the Texas Legislature, which is dominated by “fiscal conservatives”, is not expected to support attempts to raise taxes to fill the multibillion-dollar hole. But social service advocates say the state’s safety net system can’t afford any further budget cuts.

    How did the state fall into a hole?

    Declining sales tax receipts and the recession: State lawmakers write a budget based on an educated guess of how much money will be available to spend during the period for which they’re writing a budget. For example, in 2009, lawmakers wrote a budget for 2010-2011. State government gets about 60 percent of its revenue from sales taxes, so when there’s a dramatic drop in state revenues, or collections, there’s less money to spend. During the economic recession of 2008-2009, Texas saw a drop in state revenues for 14 straight months.

    Structural deficit: Some budget watchers say lawmakers created a “structural” deficit in 2005, when lawmakers cut school property taxes by one-third and expanded the business tax to make up the difference. But the business tax brings in billions less each year than the property tax did, meaning that with every new budget, lawmakers must find more and more extra money to make up the difference. The structure of the revenue system creates deficits each year.

    Options to fill the hole

    Budget cuts: In 2003, lawmakers used massive cuts and increases in fees to fill a $10 billion budget hole. Gov. Rick Perry has said those measures can be used again in the 2011 session. In 2010, state agencies were already advised to cut 5 percent from their budget requests, which was projected to save about $1 billion. The comptroller said in 2010 that she trusted lawmakers to make up the rest.

    Would it be wrong for me to wish they go back home, as they crowd our highways and strain our infrastructure, absorbing our opportunities, Hmm? some of them are kinda cute and I like them, some are funny and all of them are proud to be here in Texas.

    I don’t look at them as a scourge or something evil and to be hated but I do wish they had left some of their bull$hit ideas back home.

  • Howard Roark

    Bob Wire:
    I hate to be the one to break it to you but the problem began in the early nineteen twenties with the progressive movement with their concept that it is the function of the Fed Govt to take care of the people. The Constitution was drafted with the premise that the new Fed Govt would be givin the enumerated (limited) powers to do the few things that the states should not be doing such as raising and supporting an army and a navy and providing a gold and silver based currency. the States never gave up their police powers. (look it up in any law dictionary)

    In the federalist papers James Madison said that the powers of the Fed Govt would be few and defined while the powers of the States would be mamy and varied.

    In the progressive founding document the movement said that they would develop a quick way to change the constitution. The only legal way to change the constitution is with the amendment.the progressives knew that they could not go that route for two reasons. 1.the use of the amendment is very difficult as it requires two thirds of the house and senate and three fourths of the states to ratify and 2. by asking that something be made constitutional it is admitting that it is at present unconstitutional. the progressives quickly discovered that it bis so much easier to put five of their liars for hire on the Supreme Court, and have them rule that the Constitution means something that it does not. Thomas Jefferson warned that the Fed Courts would over time direct more and more power to the Fed Govt untill the Fed Govt would have all power.

    Things began to really roll for the progressives when Franklin the marxist Rosevelt with his court packing scheme extorted the Supreme Court into ruling his illegal programs as constitutional when they were clearly not. The opening paragraph of Article one section eight which had never given any powers to the Fed. Govt suddenly gave the Fed Govt the power to provide for the general welfare. James Madison the father of the constitution said that this paragraph is a goal statement and the enumerated powers listed below the paragraph were to be used to accomplish the goals.

    since Frankie the commie Rosevelt the Fed Govt (led by the progressives) has forced program after program on the people.in effect buying votes with taxpayer money. (when you rob from Peter to pay Paul you can count on Paul to vote for you) Liberals have for decades been giving taxpayer money to their special interest groups to buy votes. it was bad enough that liberals gave money directly to their friends but what was even worse is that they promised future benefits. this is why todays total unfunded liabilities are about one hundred one trillion dollars. the total Gross National Product per year is from twelve to fourteen trillion dollars. you do the math.the so called entitlement programs will soon consume the entire federal budget.

    So Bob Wire
    this is why you recently saw a Democrat Congressman at a town hall meeting when asked what were the limits of the Fed Govt said ” the Fed Govt can do pretty much any thing it wants to” excuse me for wanting to vomit at that comment. it is liberals that have brought down this great country. even thiugh socialism has never worked through out the history of man, the liberals have convinved themselves that they can somehow make it work. if they can just get their hands on enough of other peoples money.

    • Bob Wire

      Well just how far DO you want to go back Howard?

      While I might agree with you in part, extreme times calls for extreme measures. Much like we confined thousand of Japanese Americans for no reason other then blood linage during WWII.

      But when the extreme has past, so should the measures. But like they say, there nothing temporary about government. It stays and stays and repeats and repeats. As today and the sun goes down on temporary tax cuts and we see people fight to continue them.

      So ~ at who’s door step do you wish to lay the blame ~ mean ole democrats?

      Before you throw up all over your pretty shoes maybe you should consider the reasons for the excesses of Wall Street in 29 once again as they were leveraging moneys they did not have, not completely unlike the scam of the mislabeling of products and inflated values we see today. I guess you want to lay that solely at the Democrats doorstep as well?

      I think I might understand your feeling. As I see people that can’t wait to retire! Draw the SS. ~ Draw the medicare and medicaid. Welfare, entitlements, ~ double dip, triple dip ~ it a huge mess! a sickness really, ~ the first and the 15th becoming huge days!

      But my guess is, ~ your in line too! ~ I know they are holding 140 million dollars of my money, while at 62 I see my retirement as only a dirt nap. I plan on dying one way or the other when it quits being any fun and my bad days out number my good ones.

      But I’m not going to blame democrats or republicans or FDR and something that happened 75 years ago. I blame me for being so luck to live so long.

      That 140 million would be nice to have back ~ but I figure it helped my grandparents and my parents ago and willing to not let it ruin my “today” worrying with. Today is the only time I have, tomorrow has not been promised me.

      It I need it bad enough and I’m well enough to fight~ I’ll get it ~ if not, I’m a dead man. ~~ It’s the way the world has always worked.

  • Betty Walker

    D— the republicans! They put their own politics ahead of the people! They’re out for themselves, first, every time. They say the rich need to get the tax cuts because they help build jobs and the economy! Ha, ha, ha! Let’s look at the big help they’ve done since getting the gwb(doesn’t deserve capital letters) tax cuts! NADA, NOTHING, ZILCH! They are the typically selfish, self-centered, spoiled rotten rich b—–ds. (I don’t want to use profanity, so I’ve left out missing letters, but you can fill them in for yourself.) What short memories the fickle populace displayed in the last election. The republicans ruined this country in the 8 years with gwb, and they voted Democrat to retaliate, but how can the Democrats undo the damage of 8 years instantly? They expect miracles, and when changes didn’t come fast enough, they dumped us back into the corrupt “pot” again, to unleash MORE damage!! There’s no end!

    • Bleh

      Betty, did you forget the Democrats owned the congress from 2006 onward? Bush signed loads of the Democrat’s legislation into law and now they own the Presidency as well. Not that they needed it…
      Exactly why have the Democrats not fixed anything when they have had the power to do so since 2006? Its not like Bush vetoed much of anything…

      Simply put the Democrats put their own politics ahead of the people too.
      To suggest any less is simply idiocy.

      Maybe the Tea Party’s candidates will help fix some of the mess the others have created and maybe not, however I am willing to give them a try because certainly nothing else has worked.

  • Bob Wire

    I see! The president is not in charge or responsible! That’s nice to know. It’s congress that offers direction and steering. Hmm?

    • http://none Mike

      Bob, The statement is true but the facts show otherwise.Mike L.

  • Bob Wire

    Well I think the power is divided with the President having the final word. As it should be, as it was designed. Everybody is never going to be happy. Myself , I felt it was a bargaining chip from the beginning as “O”‘s projected budget was figured with the tax cuts in place.

    I guess you know this “compromise” came at an increase in the National Debt by several Trillions of dollars over a 10 year period? Why do I feel like I just bought a home for a wife that’s been going to group therapy and really wasn’t working out?

    “Washington (CNN) — The annual White House holiday party for members of Congress fell on the same evening that President Obama announced a “framework” deal on the Bush-era tax cuts.

    Based on the optimistic tone from Obama’s usual critics, it appears Republicans are getting better gifts under the tree than the president’s fellow Democrats.

    Arriving for a night of festivities at the southeast entrance to the White House, outgoing Sen. Chris Dodd, D-Connecticut, said he would reserve judgment until he could review the agreement more carefully on Tuesday, but he expressed some disappointment. “I regret that we are going to have to compromise on it because I think it’s terrible we are not basically limiting the tax cut to those who really need it. That’s the sad part,” he said.

    Republicans, like incoming House Speaker John Boehner and Senate Minority leader Mitch McConnell put out statements applauding the efforts of the White House to forge a bipartisan plan to prevent a tax hike.

    However, some Democrats aren’t pleased with a deal that they believe rewards millionaires and billionaires with tax breaks they say the country simply can’t afford.

    But there’s a sense of urgency to complete a deal that even the president admits is not 100 percent of what either side wants.

    “We have to get an agreement for the sake of the American people,” said Sen. Max Baucus, D-Montana, as he arrived for the White House holiday party. He added that this issue needed to be resolved so that “people know with greater certainty that taxes are not going to be increased.”

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