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Getting Schooled

December 9, 2010 by  

Getting Schooled

Among the less-awesome aspects of authoring analyses for the Personal Liberty Digest™ is the requirement that I actually watch the Democrat-programmed media flacks read talking points like news. I subject myself to the idiotic ranting of these drones in order to keep abreast of what the Democratic Party is endeavoring to subject my fellow Americans to. It is a frustrating but necessary task, given the venomous hypocrisy vomited across the screen by mendacious marionettes masquerading as commentators, pundits and even “anchors.”

But my frustrations are nothing compared to the experience endured by Senator Jon Kyl (R-Ariz.) this past Sunday morning when he sat down with doddering Bob Schieffer on CBS’s Face the Nation.

At issue: The nation’s income tax rates, specifically the Republican effort to continue said rates in an effort to jump-start an economy which President Barack Obama and the Democrats have treated like Ted Kennedy’s 67 Oldsmobile.

To his credit, Kyl displayed the patience of Job, considering he first had to bring Schieffer up to speed on basic economics; a task akin to Stephen Hawking teaching quantum mechanics to a student who had yet to master the art of making macaroni pictures.

Schieffer: “Senator Kyl, is the Senate going to… resolve… the tax cuts?”
Kyl: “… Nobody is talking about tax cuts. We’re talking about extending the rates which have been in existence for the last decade.”

Kyl had offered an explanation even a dim bulb like Schieffer could grasp. But Kyl had underestimated just how low Schieffer’s wattage really is.

Schieffer: “Would these tax cuts be temporary…”
Kyl: “We’re not talking about tax cuts.”
Schieffer: “I gotcha.”

Evidently not:

Schieffer: “Are the votes there in the Senate…to extend these tax, uh…”
Kyl: “Rates.”
Schieffer: “…Rates, as you call it (sic)…”

Uh, Bob? What do you call “it,” rutabagas? It must be tough teaching Econ 101 to someone who prefers his talking points be written in crayon. Over at the Democrat Party’s quasi-official talking points outlet, MSNBC, Andrea Mitchell queried Senator Judd Gregg (R-N.H.):

“So how do you… justify going along with a larger tax cut, for those who really don’t need it?

Evidently, Mrs. Greenspan doesn’t watch CBS. Nor does she listen at the breakfast table. Nor is she alone in her obtuseness.

“49 percent say don’t give the wealthy these tax cuts”
 — Chuck Todd, NBC.

Fifty-one percent think Chuck’s hair is doing the talking.

“If all the cuts stay in place, the deficit will soar by $3.7 trillion over 10 years.”
– Katie Couric, CBS. (Katie makes eight figures annually.)

It’s no small task getting through to liberals who can’t stop parroting each other, much less overcome liberal doctrinaire talking points. Predictably, the President fell into leftist class-warfare babble:

"I’ve said before that I felt that the middle-class tax cuts were being held hostage to the high-end tax cuts… I think it’s tempting not to negotiate with hostage-takers, unless the hostage gets harmed."

Imagine Senator Mitch McConnell (R-Ky.) and Representative John Boehner (R-Ohio) threatening a parking lot full of minivans. One minor detail: The Democrats are the “hostage-takers” in this twisted tax tableau. Beyond obfuscating the obvious logical fallacy of disarming America’s elite financial troops as the nation fights a huge economic battle, the Democrats and their media are also hiding the central fact that the derided “rich” are already shouldering the lion’s share of tax payments, with the top 5 percent of wage earners paying 60 percent of income taxes, and the top percent of wage earners on the hook for nearly 40 percent.

It’s hard to know whether the Democrat ruling elite’s media are deliberately missing the point, or if they’re just that dense.

To be sure, there are aspects of the Obama-GOP compromise which leave a bit to be desired. The stabilization of the tax rates for two more years, combined with the 13-month extension of unemployment benefits necessitated by the Democrats’ four years of economic mismanagement, should have been accompanied by spending cuts, but wasn’t. Too many shovel-ready projects are already in the pipeline, presumably.

The deal isn’t done quite yet. Millionaire legislators like Senator Harry Reid are trumpeting their opposition to the compromise package like bluebloods declaiming the potential admission of an outsider to their country club.

I have a deal of my own in mind for Bob, Dick, Katie, Barack and Harry. Convince me you’re serious about tax hikes being best for the nation by paying income taxes commensurate with the higher rates you’re pushing. Be honest, and put your money where your mouths are.

For once.

Ben Crystal

is a 1993 graduate of Davidson College and has burned the better part of the last two decades getting over the damage done by modern-day higher education. He now lives in Savannah, Ga., where he has hosted an award-winning radio talk show and been featured as a political analyst for television. Currently a principal at Saltymoss Productions—a media company specializing in concept television and campaign production, speechwriting and media strategy—Ben has written numerous articles on the subjects of municipal authoritarianism, the economic fallacy of sin taxes and analyses of congressional abuses of power.

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  • Robin from Arcadia, IN

    Only two words come to mind… FAIR TAX.

    • HFlashman

      Crystal is on a roll today. He must have leafed thorugh his well thumbed book of stale one liners to build his article for the day. Notice he said nothing. Literally…nothing except insults about reputable people who are well respected amongst peers and public alike.

      But what can one expect from a low intelligence paid hack whose mission is to twist and bend reality to benefit the narrow elite rulers of the GOP..you know, the foreign and domestic wealthy and Big Corporations.

      And most people on this posting forum are swallowing it. Unthinking, veting anger at the current admin not realizing that anger is at the betrayal and lies of the GOP.

      Whoring to the wealthy, sending the deficit deeper, ignoring history as far as what tax relief packs bigger bang for the buck, increasng further the subsidization of the wealthy at our expense, having hacks like Crystal write smears and non substance articles designed to play upon fear, ignorance, and anger, lying and mischaracterizing any policy not furthering the interests of the wealthy (domestic and foreign) … the GOP is laughing at how you believe it. Literally laughing at you.

      • Dale on the left coast

        Flash . . . you are as dopy as Bob Schieffer . . . . the top 1% pay 40% of income taxes . . . you think they should pay more???
        The top 10% pay almost 70% of income taxes.
        The country has a “Spending Problem” not a Tax Problem. Taxes are still TOO HIGH . . . and almost 50% of the population PAY NOTHING!!!
        Are the left so illiterate that they think Extending Tax Rates at present levels a tax cut?? If they are that dumb . . . why not just raise taxes on Dimmicraps . . . they probably wouldn’t notice!!!

        • eddie47d

          Yes the Republicans are hostage takers for they have stalled out the economy big time in their obstinate behavior.Sorry Dale, the do nothing wealthy don’t need anymore tax breaks.There arrogance is only outdone by the Republicans slipping them more favored status. Sure they will open up a wee bit and throw a few bones to the unemployed but in the long run it will be more of the same slide.

          • DaveH

            You guys are unbelievable. In your minds, no matter how many Democrats are involved, it will never be their fault for anything that happens under their watch. You will still be supporting them when we are begging Cuba for financial assistance.

          • HFlashman

            Dave….actually, when Bush II screwed the pooch during katrina and showed the true GOP disdain for the Common man of America…Cuba did offer financial and medical assistance. Same with Venezula.

            Sad isn’t it that such is where the GOP has taken us…

          • libertytrain

            the blame for Katrina lies with the former Democratic Governor and the demo Mayor – always did and always will.

          • DaveH

            People should spend their hard-earned money to support those who stupidly build their homes in a hole in hurricane country?
            It seems odd to me that Liberals scream bloody murder when a rich person whose home slid down a hillside appeals for government help. They whine that those people shouldn’t have built in mudslide country (I agree with that), but then turn a blind eye when the poor do the same type of reckless things and expect Government to bail them out.

          • libertytrain

            DaveH – as always, well said.

          • Bruce D.

            Eddie47d it is not a tax break, it is not the governments money, and it is not your money. Let the government show some signs of responsible spending (something the left does not want) and show signs of cutting waste (something the left does not want) and fraud (something the left may want but neither party taking serious steps) and then come and ask us for money. We may all want to chip in then. But they are not doing it in the right order. Once they get the tax money they cannot be trusted to do the right thing.

          • eddie47d

            Until the wealthy can do the right thing and I’m talking about our whole darn system of allowing anyone to make millions without much effort. They got their fortunes by hard work and earning it? Ha,Bull, it’s all rotten to the core.

          • Dan az

            So edduh you think the government should increase the size of their bloated selves and be rewarded by all of us.The way I see it you have been out of a job far to long and need to get a grip on reality that know one owes you a living.Get a job!So I can sit back an bitch that you arent producing enough for me.I want a vacation so go to work because I quit!

          • Denniso

            Dale…imagine this. The more the income gap grows the more tax the rich will pay even if they have low tax rates. If more people are left behind in income they will pay less in taxes as they fall out of the tax brackets. If the middle and lower middle class make more money
            then they will wind up paying more and the gap between what rich and the rest pay in taxes will narrow. The huge disparity between what the top and bottom pay is a reflection of the widening income gap.

          • eddie47d

            I worked 42 years but I didn’t know you were a quiter.

          • http://?? Joe H.

            eduuuuuhhhh!
            I already told you that 42 years of walking to the corner welfare office to pick up your check is not working!!!!!!

        • Kinetic1

          Dale,
          If, and it’s a big if the Bush tax cuts were passed under normal means, then we would now be talking about raising taxes. They were not. The Bush tax cuts were passed as a temporary reduction to a) pass on the benefits of a national surplus and b) help turn around a sagging economy. They had a 10 year window and now that time has come to return to the previous rates. Problem is, they didn’t do much for the economy (unless you were already wealthy) and those in the lower and middle class find they are now dependent on that extra money.

          Since you pointed out how much the top 1% pay, let’s look at some more facts. In 2007, the top 400 taxpayers had an average income of $344.8 million, up 31 percent from their average $263.3 million income in 2006. They paid an effective tax of just 16.62%, down almost a half a point. Are your rates that low? Of course not, you can’t take advantage of the loopholes they have, and you don’t earn over 60% of your income through capitol gains, which is taxed at only 15%.

          But back to the much ballyhooed Bush tax cuts. How did we do? Well, from 2002 to 2007 (those wonderful Republican years) the top 1% saw an average income increase of about 75%, while those of us below saw an average of about 1%. Now let’s look at taxes paid, The top 1% went from paying 33.7% of all tax dollars to 40.5%. Hmmm, about a 20% increase. Not bad considering the wealth they accrued. And the bottom 50%? Why they went from paying 3.5% all the way down to 2.9%, also around 20%. Makes sense since they both saw their income rise by …. ohhh, maybe not.

          There’s a reason that those in the bottom 50% pay so little. They don’t have much to give. Let’s be conservative and say inflation for that period was 4% per year. If we cheat and don’t do the real math, we can just say that, from 2002 to 2007 we saw about 20% inflation. For a group that was already making just enough to get by, a group who saw an average income increase of only 1%, that 20% is a killer. But hey, it cut into the wealthy as well, right? Maybe the bottom 50% could just cut back. Settle for something less than that Mercedes, or trade in that $10 million home for a nice tract unit. Yes, it sounds nice to say fair would be 15% for everyone, but 15% of $25,000 is $3,750 or $312 a month. That’s a lot when you’re struggling just to get by.

          • Bruce D.

            Kinetic1 stop lusting after other peoples money. You cannot create more products and wealth by dividing up the money(the left mantra). You and the left should concentrate more on creating wealth rather than dividing up what is already there. That is a losing strategy.

          • http://naver sook young

            Are you sure you’re not a communist? In some ways you sound like Kim Il Sung and Mao Tse Dong with your economic beliefs. Thank you.

            Sook Young
            Wife of the Samurai

          • http://?? Joe H.

            Everytime one of you progressive socialists get on the board all I see is BOO HOO! HE’S MAKING MORE MONEY THAN ME!!! BOO HOO!!!

          • eddie47d

            It’s not making money, it’s how they make their money? We wouldn’t have had the meltdown 3-4 years ago if all those wealthy “buddies” of yours had played by the rules. Go ahead Joe and keep protecting their grand larceny schemes. Maybe you are in on the deal and covering their butts.

          • http://?? Joe H.

            Oh yeah, eddduuuhhhh! I’m rich!!!! Maybe in the number of good friends I have or the family I have!! Definately not monitarily! I just don’t lust after others money! My wife and I pay our share and don’t expect anyone to pay for us!! If I had millions, I’d probably help as many as I could, but that would be MY decision, not yours or anyone elses!!! If I helped 14 people, it wouldn’t be your right to say I should help 15!

          • http://yahoo.com chas butterfield

            HELLO!!….Between 2003-2007( BEFORE the DUM-O-CRAPS took office), by ANY econmic standard, the “W” tax CUTS had created the BEST ECONOMY IN WORLD HISTORY!!!…Even MINORITIES fared better than @ ANY time!!….It is LONG past time to recognize, also, that these cuts weren’t just for the RICH( obviously, the DUM-O-CRAPS have FINALLY admitted that, calling for “only” the rates to be extended for the MIDDLE CLASS[hmmm.... I thought only the RICH got the CUTS?....Blue-shirted liberal NAZIZ ALWAYS speak in confused sentences!!])…

          • Kinetic1

            Chas,
            Your “BEST ECONOMY IN WORLD HISTORY” didn’t do much for the average American. Again I point out that the top 1% increased their earnings by about 75% from 2002 – 2007, but average folks saw only a 1% increase. With inflation, that’s a deep hole for most of us. Not what I would call a great economy. All the appearances were there, what with the 2002 and 2003 tax cuts. Yes, the economy took a upturn after 2003, but as the WSJ points out, President Bush allowed for massive overspending by the Republican congress. Yes, that’s right the REPUBLICANS. Still, things looked good on the surface, though under it all the Fed was both spurring and destabilizing it all with their policies. Agin, from the WSJ …

            Which brings us back to Mr. Bush’s “hangover.” While his Administration was handling the fiscal levers, the Federal Reserve was pushing the monetary accelerator to the floor. In reaction to the dot-com implosion and the collapse in business investment, Alan Greenspan rapidly cut interest rates to spur housing and consumer spending. In June 2003, even as the tax cuts were passing and the economy took off, he cut the fed funds rate to 1% and kept it there for a year.

            “His stimulus worked — far too well. The money boom created a commodity price spike as well as a subsidy for credit across the economy. … “This extra easy policy was responsible for accelerating the housing boom and thereby ultimately leading to the housing bust,” writes Mr. Taylor, … By pushing all of this excess credit into the economy, the Fed created a housing and mortgage mania that Wall Street was only too happy to be part of. Yes, many on the Street abandoned their normal risk standards. But they were goaded by an enormous subsidy for debt. Wall Street did get “drunk” but Washington had set up the open bar.”

            So, how great was the Bush/Republican economy? Well, it looked good and the numbers indicate that the economy was going great guns, but the means by which they were creating this expansion were doomed to help create one of the worst recessions in our history. Despite what those on this site wish to believe, the down turn did not occur simply because the Democrats took over Congress. In fact, the bust began “with a vengeance” in 2007 and helped spur the Democratic takeover.

            So go ahead and repeat the half truths of the Heritage Foundation. You can cherry pick the numbers to show what a great economy they created, or you can look at all the numbers and see that it was a Trojan horse. Not what I would call success.

          • eddie47d

            Thanks Kinetic

          • kenneth

            You just left out the most important part of why that happened. Because our wonderful government made it more profitable for businesses to go else where to do business. Therefore the skilled laborer jobs went of seas or just off our coast. Those were enacted by both sides. It wasn’t like the rich said “Oh we have a tax cut let’s go somewhere else.” Our wonderful government did this. They set the rules and the rules made it easy for companies to pull out and still sale their products here. That’s the problem. Business people did what good business people do to compete. You don’t stay in business long if you don’t follow what stupid representatives, (who have never ran a business) decide is going to be the law of the land. Everything points back to governing without cause or reason to change things and then not following up to make sure it is working as it was designed to, and then taking the responsibility when it doesn’t work. We have way too many lawyers as representative and not enough business people who can guide our government. We have a bunch of lawyers you want to put people in their control to do their bidding not “we the people’s work”. The whole in the middle class is because the jobs that use to employ middle class are gone. Until you face that fact we won’t ever be able to work to fix the problem.

          • http://?? Joe H.

            constipated1,
            I still say you must not be much of a worker as my wife got raises every year during that time of a minimum 4%!!! I must admit though, I don’t know much about the cost of living increase you and eduuuhhh! got in your welfare. You DO realize that that just doesn’t put you two into the average people, don’t you? More BELOW average!!!

          • Denniso

            Sook Young…you should know that in America it’s legal and allowed to be a communist,fascist,socialist,libertarian,kook…

      • bruce

        Flash, You’ve proven yourself by comments that you are incapable of analytical thought, preferring the class warfare lines of the left. The “rich” already pay a crazy proportion of total taxes paid in this country. The issue is the continuing outrageous growth of an already severely bloated gov’t and the absurd spending and waste of those tax dollars. Perhaps you could enlighten us with a list of gov’t programs, outside of the military, that have succeeded in solving the problem/issue they were created to address?? ANY? THERE’s THE PROBLEM!! Any attempt to address government deficits must BEGIN with $20 reduction in spending before another dollar of taxes is requested–a very simple concept. Reduce the SIZE and SCOPE of the Government by terminating programs. I’d like to know too, how can anyone justify paying a gov’t employee twice the wage rate as the private sector does for the same work? This seems a very obvious point to begin slashing costs, like any private business would.

        • eddie47d

          This new bill doesn’t even address the deficit and to say the wealthy are being gouged by taxes is absurd. They pay much less than they did back in the 50′s when the economy was good. The more tax breaks they get the less they produce;now that is smoke and mirrors. You can come back and say the poor don’t produce jobs. Well, the wealthy haven’t been doing a very good job either. The middle class have been truly ransomed off by the take no prisoners (I’ve got mine) wealthy.

          • jbird

            And how many poor people have signed your paychecks, eddie47d?

          • Kinetic1

            jbird,
            The collective of those in the lower 50% who purchase food at the supermarket pay for the employees. When they buy clothes at KMart and Wallmart, they pay for the employees. The money may go to the wealthy owners, but it is the money of millions of Americans that pay our wages. A wealthy man may eat more expensive meals and dress in finer clothes, but most American’s would be out of work if the bottom 50% stopped paying for anything.

          • DaveH

            It is productivity that determines an economy. You can have all the money you want and if there is no productivity, the economy will collapse. The fact is as mentioned by the Liberals, the poor buy the groceries, etc. They consume with their money. The rich invest their money in capital goods (machines, business property, etc.) which results in places for those poor to live and better productivity so those people can afford to buy more goods.
            What do the Liberals produce? Hot Air. We could stop the Global Warming by convincing the Liberals to shut their mouths.
            But above all, up until the Liberals got hold of our economy, the rich got that way by voluntary transactions and voluntary contracts. The Liberal answer? Force. Some disinterested and self-interested bureaucrats decide what’s best for the rest of us and if we don’t like it, tough.
            I know I post this link often, but it needs to be posted often, and anybody who wants to think and learn can peruse these web pages and see the results of Big Government intervention into economies (pick the country links to learn more about each country):
            http://www.heritage.org/index/Ranking

          • Denniso

            Kinetic 1…jbird’s comment has become the rightwing mantra, that only the rich create jobs or hire anyone. It’s so absurd that it’s laughable,but we do need to respond and inform those who might be seduced by the dumb comment…you are right of course. Also, plenty of lower income and poor people hire plumbers,electricians,car mechanics and more. They buy cars, eat at restaurants and many buy homes. Like you said,all of their purchases and taxes paid go toward creating jobs and paying salaries. Many lower income people have their own small businesses and do hire workers.

            The misperception(lie) by the majority of rightwingers is that if someone isn’t wealthy they aren’t productive or actively supporting the economy.

          • Bruce D.

            Right now Denniso anyone making over $250,000 a year including married couples filing jointly are considered rich by Obama and the left. Your viewpoint is inherently flawed about the right as HFlashman and Kenetic1 are the only ones who appear to be making that much on this site and they are both far left. Yet lusting after other peoples money is the central theme of their ideology as it is for most on the left.

          • kenneth

            How many businesses have you ran and how many pay checks have you signed your name to? What makes you such an expert on the subject, because anyone can throw around statistics. What matters is if you can answer why our upper class is paying 60 to 70% of our taxes and why has the middle class almost disappear at the same time. What changed that? It isn’t all because the upper income tax bracket got a tax break when everybody else did, and because it happen to come from your favorite wiping pole called Bush. This is about the government changing the trade agreements. Go study that and then come back and tell us something worth hearing.

          • Kinetic1

            Now Bruce, don’t put words in my mouth. I said that we are APPROACHING those levels. Were doing very well, but we’re not there yet.

            As to who is rich and who is not, I admit that where I live $250,000 is not a huge amount of money. With tract homes selling for almost a million dollars, $250,000 only goes so far, but it’s still a fair amount and it begs that we consider that when the politicians talk about $250,000, they are talking about adjusted gross income. That means that those folks at the bottom of the range are making a lot more than $250,000, and it’s a pretty steep curve from there. So let’s say that the bottom level for “rich” is $300,000. That doesn’t sound like a “rich” person to me. Rich people make millions, right? When you live in an area like New York or L.A., that’s just how it is. In fact, a million may not even be enough these days. Shoot, Jed Clampet had $25 million on the Beverly Hillbillies and that was in 1962! That was REALLY RICH and now they want us to believe that $250,000 or &300,000 will do the job? It just doesn’t feel “rich” until you consider that only 2% of Americans earn over $250,000 (adjusted.) So for those of you who live in an area where $100,000 buys a really nice home, $250,000 is a whole lot of money, and when compared to your neighbor who’s pulling in less than $30,000 (you know, the bottom 50%) you might just be “rich.”

          • Kinetic1

            Kenneth, Kenneth, hold on there. Don’t lose it now. First off, what is you definition of “upper class”? The top 10% pays about 70%, and that group starts at over $100,000 (adjusted.) I have to tell you, I’m in that group and I know a lot of these people who are anything but “upper class.” Still, the point is that in 2007 the top 10% held over 80% of our nations wealth. Doesn’t it stand to reason that those with 80% of the wealth would pay the lion’s share of taxes?

            As to the growing chasm between the top and the disappearing middle class, those at the top have most of their wealth in investments other than property. Those of us in the middle have much of our wealth tied up in our homes. I don’t know about you, but just since 2006 my home value has dropped by 2/3. My stock holdings also took a beating, but unlike home values the stock market is rebounding.

            Am I blaming all this on the Bush tax cuts? No, of course not. My complaint about the cuts is that they disproportionally favored those who needed them the least and will do the least with those dollars to boost the economy. I know, I know, the rich are the ones who hire us schlubs, but that misses the point. The argument that a rich man will use the money to hire the unemployed, while the poor will just spend it does not hold water for one simple reason: the rich don’t need to hire, but the poor need to eat. You don’t get wealthy by expanding your business when there are no customers, so a wise man holds onto his money until demand improves. Hunger comes around several times a day no matter how bad things are. The economy runs on consumerism. It’s just that simple.

        • HFlashman

          Sure thing Bruce…you want a list of programs I would cut had I the power? Not a problem…let me ask you one thing first…what’s your profession? I’ll start with some of the ‘waste” programs affecting that. Or would you prefer I cut in all other areas but those affecting you?

          • http://yahoo.com chas butterfield

            YES, Denniso….the “little people” buy PRODUCTS to keep the economy going…..PRODUCTS WHICH RICH PEOPLE MAKE/PRODUCE!!( THAT is why they are called “products”[ECON 102])….Tax rate CHANGE( and a tax RATE businesses have been used to working with for a DECADE) will leave businesses re-setting their books: the price HIKES will hurt the “little people” MORE because the poor and those whose income is stabilized( ie: retired, unemployed, working poor, etc) will be FORCED to pay the BRUNT of these hikes by purchasing higher-priced “products”(ie: THAT which is PRODUCED by RICH people); if they choose NOT to purchase, the conomy goes FURTHER into the tank!!(THAT is why ZERO-BAMA caved; he KNOWS he’s TOAST if these RATES go UP!!)

          • denniso

            Funny, but I don’t think I’ve ever seen a rich person ‘make’ much of anything…they may have the money to start a business but it’s actually the little people who do the work and ‘make’ products.

            I have a friend who nets about $15,000/yr after real business costs. He builds houses,lays block,does plumbing,plastering and carpentry. He does the actual work and he hires people to work w/ him. He alone is responsible for a sizeable % of the economic activity in the little town he lives in.

            ‘Little’ people do more than just buy products made by rich people.

          • http://?? Joe H.

            flushedman
            COP-OUT!!!!! You wouldn’t know an idea if it came up and stomped you!!

        • http://yahoo.com chas butterfield

          TO Kinetic1:
          APPEARANCES??!!….Looks GOOD with the NUMBERS??!!….What the hell do you think is used for evaluation?….If the “appearances” are GREAT ….AND…. “the NUMBERS” back it up , I may “suggest” that the rest of your “ANAL-asses” is, once AGAIN….MORE Blu-shirted liberal opinion(ie; GARBAGE efforts to promote “idiot-ology” over substance)…EVERY income level saw their standard of living rise; your efforts to promote class warfare is, once AGAIN, just another instance of Blue-shirted liberal NAZIZ utilizing the #1 PSYCHO-”logical(?)” defense mechanism in their playbook: ……….DENIAL!!…Your smoke screen does NOT work on intelligent people who possess critical thinking abilities…AND….just because the “upper” taxpaying goups made MORE % does NOT mean they PUT IT IN A MATTRESS!!….They…..(drum rol)……..INVESTED in either their OWN or OTHER BUSINESSSES!!….Komrad ZERO-BAMA KNOWS this!!: THAT is why (even though he is a commie/ class war-ist like YOU) @ least he is smart enough (although it takes LITTLE) to KNOW this!!; he is TOAST if “w” tax rates expire!!!..Your hatred of the “rich” is detrimental to us ALL; eventually,(rather than WORDS), that is why BULLETS become CHEAPER: the IGNORANT can de TAUGHT; the STUPID?; ….NOT so much…..

          • Kinetic1

            Chas,
            My, but you do like to make noise. To those on the street, appearances and simple numbers are often used to evaluate conditions, but those in charge should have a deeper understanding of what is going on. The fact that the Fed and Bush’s Treasury Secretaries were oblivious to what was happening does nothing to change the facts. Articles in the Wall Street Journal going back to 2003 warned about the results of the policies being enacted at the time, but the Administration was so busy patting itself on the back for promoting record home ownership that they could not be bothered to consider the consequences.

            As to my “Blu-shirted liberal opinion”, what I have shared with you comes from, among other sources the Wall Street Journal. Not exactly a bastion of Liberal opinion. Were you among those “intelligent people who possess critical thinking abilities” you might consider the reality that, as noted the Bush administration used flawed policies to try an fix the economy and, in the end they failed.

            I know this is hard to accept. It may be even harder than accepting that the economy improved after Clinton raised taxes. Some things seem so obvious, and yet… So what do the wealthy do with their money? Well, when the economy is doing well, they do as you suggested and invest in their own and other’s companies. I did not and would not suggest that they did otherwise during the growth period, but during a down turn that changes. You have implied that President Obama knows “he is TOAST if “w” tax rates expire!!!” I believe what he and most economists know is that the bottom 90+% of us can’t afford the scheduled return to the pre-Bush tax rates. Our incomes has not risen to meet inflation, our wealth has decreased due to the housing crash and the economy can not afford any less retail spending than we have now. I believe he also knows that the wealthy are unlikely to invest in any business that is not showing signs of growth, which is a large proportion of U.S. businesses at this time. As I said before, the rich did not get that way by hiring people when there is no business. President Obama agreed to the “top 2%” tax extension to get an extension for the rest, as well as an extension of unemployment and other measures that will actually help the economy.

            Does anything I have said imply that I “hate the rich”? I do not like Bill Gates’ business methods, and I have many issues with his products, but I applaud him for his generous support of many worthwhile causes. Andrew Carnegie is another “rich” man that I believe is worth our admiration. The Koch brothers on the other hand have, in my opinion used their wealth for little other purpose than to manipulate our government to increase their own power. I also have words for CEOs who take tens of millions in compensation while laying off hundreds of their employees. Just how many times are we going to have to watch good companies brought to the brink of failure while the CEO walks away with a “golden parachute”?

            Like any other group, there are good and bad people among the rich, and among those who I consider good there are many who have themselves come forth to say that they do not need their tax rate held at Bush levels. They have been clear in their opinion the our economy would be better served if they were to pay that extra 4%. No, I don’t hate the rich, but I have little time for the selfish.

      • Dogma-Free

        Bravo, Flash, bravo!

        I could totally understand if all these people were rich, that they would come on here, and help push the Republican agendas, in order to serve their own. But for most of these people, who likely live paycheck to paycheck, that they would continue to endorse their own demise, just doesn’t make any sense to me.

        I mean, Ben gets paid to push the GOP agendas, and put a far-right leaning spin on all the crap he puts out, so that I can understand. It’s completely unpatriotic and treasonous, but I do understand it.

        But for the average shlub, whose only real fault was that his parents made him go to church when he was young (and so he never learned to think for himself, or question the authority of those who claim to be ‘god-fearing’), it really doesn’t make sense to ultimately deep-six your own country, and your fellow countrymen (and women).

        I also like how people say spending should be cut. I’m not saying that’s a bad idea, but I’d like to know where exactly they’d like to cut spending from. Certainly not the military, since the Republicans are all for starting wars with smaller, weaker countries. So then where? Education? America has possibly one of the lowest (if not THE lowest) average education level of all the industrialized nations. I mean, you see it on here when many of these people post comments. I would hazard to guess that there might be, on average, a fourth or fifth grade reading level amongst the regulars. That can’t be good.
        So then where to cut spending…? Infrastructure? Social Security?

        • Mandy Brown

          Why don’t we cut some of the social programs that don’t have a proven track record? Why don’t we hold government programs accountable? Why don’t we stop allowing people into this country who do nothing but take what they can get?

          • Kinetic1

            Please, name those programs. The wars in Iraq and Afghanistan come to mind. The only people these “programs” worked for are Halliburton, Black Water, G.E., General Dynamics, etc.

          • Bruce D.

            Kenetic1, Obama is totally in bed with GE. You might want to take note of that.

          • http://naver samurai

            Michael Moore owns stock in haliburton. Does this tell you anything, edduh? FOR GOD AND COUNTRY!

          • eddie47d

            Maybe he is just another rich hypocrite. My wife has a few shares of Goldman Sachs and I tell her to dump them but she won’t. I still love her even though I tell her there are more honest companies out there. I wouldn’t invest in Haliburton either because of their gouging the tax payer in Iraq. Corruption in business will grow if they think they can get away with it.

          • http://?? Joe H.

            yeah edduhhh! you’ld buy stock in GM or Chrysler!!! Steal from the people at gun point then get even more!!

          • Bruce D.

            Eddie you have been talking every day about stealing other peoples money. What is the difference between a big corporation doing it and you as a leftest doing it through government. Stop the phoney act and stop lusting after other peoples money and make your own way.

          • Denniso

            Bruce D…do you really not understand why we have taxes? Why every state and the fed gov’t have taxes? Are you just playing along w/ the true dimwits who say things like ‘taxes are theft’??? Do you really think this modern nuclear power country w/ 300 million people and astronauts floating in space, and major challenges and threats around the world, can be run like the country of 200 yrs ago?

            Do you need a list of all the necessities that keep this country going, that are ignored by the ‘market’ and only provided by state and national gov’t? Are you in favor of a totally privatised military,
            police forces and fire depts? It’s pretty fundamental,but you people want to act like all gov’t does is steal money from us for no good purpose and if only we had NO taxes everything would be so much better.

          • Denniso

            Michael Moore DOES NOT have Haliburton stock….

          • Bruce D.

            Denniso it is theft when you take it from someone who is working and give it to someone who is not. That is what charity is for but charity has been replaced with government theft. It is also theft when people like you want others to pay more but you are not so willing to do so yourself. This unending greed of the left is destroying the work ethic of whole segments of the population. It has lead to a war on business and the loss of jobs. Now the left are trying to convince illegals that they deserve something they do not. A mentality that has or will destroy any society that embraces it.

          • Bruce D.

            One of the problems Denniso is that people like you live in some kinds of a dream world were reality plays a very small role. We are 13 trillion in debt and the interest alone makes it projected to be unsustainable. Everyone in America could pay 70% of what they make and it is not likely the debt would be paid off for a long -long time if ever if we do not slow spending. To make matters worst the lefts unending lust for other peoples money assures the debt to rise even higher until the country collapses in debt. Our problems are far deeper than raising taxes 3% on a very small percentage of the population. It is just a ruse, as most on this site already know, that will not solve any problems and may make matters worst if it affects business. The true problem is you Denniso and people like you whose greed goes much farther and deeper than any businessman making $250,00 dollars a year or more.

          • eddie47d

            The reality is the greed of corrupt corporations who couldn’t keep their fingers out of the till……and yes we know their are corrupt politicians too.

          • denniso

            BruceD,I pressume then that you are opposed to extending the tax cuts for everyone? They were supposed to be temporary back when Bush pushed them through and intended to reinvigorate the sluggish economy
            in the early part of his term. He did nothing to pay for the cuts and they have helped fuel the national debt to the tune of about $4trillion over ten yrs. So the Repubs crying about the debt are more than a little disingenuous and more like total hypocrites on the issue.
            Now I’m not so naive as to be blind to what the Repubs are really doing…they want to starve the federal gov’t of funding,even at the risk of massively increasing the debt,so they can then slice the gov’t down to some mythical and ‘proper’ size that they never actually indentify. Of course they won’t touch the bloated military spending that is one of the largest items in the budget and they won’t complain about the trillions that the 2 Bush wars are going to cost us,which again were not paid for by Bush.

            How about some consistency from the rightwing for a change?

          • JC

            In November, the American people loudly proclaimed “NO!” to the deficits and debt Obama and his statist allies in Congress were shoving down our throats.

            Now is the time for your senator, John Kyl, to show the American people he has broken with the Bush-era Republican policies of Big Government and Big Spending that got them tossed out of office in 2006 and 2008.

            On Wednesday, the House passed a “Continuing Resolution” (CR) that would extend current spending levels through September 2011. In addition to continuing spending at unsustainable rates, the House attached the atrocious S. 510 language of the so-called “Food Safety Modernization Act” to it.

            As Senate Minority Whip, members are looking to him for leadership on this important vote.

            Nonetheless, on the long-term CR, John Kyl appears unconcerned for how the members of his party plan to vote.

            Let me be clear. This vote will be one of the most important in all of the Lame Duck.

            Tell Kyl to reject politics as usual and show genuine leadership by making the tough decisions necessary to live within our means and restore our country’s prosperity.

            If the Senate passes this CR, not only will it once again enable Obama’s regulatory regime and further empower the FDA by passing the so-called “Food Safety” bill, it will vote to fund ObamaCare and the Dodd-Frank “Fed Empowerment Act,” along with other statist pet projects.

            Contact Senator John Kyl’s office today and demand he help lead a Republican filibuster against the long-term Continuing Resolution.

            Tell him instead to push for a short-term CR to allow the new Congress to make the tough decisions this Congress wasn’t willing to tackle.

            Tell Kyl, “No more empowering the FDA and Obama’s regulatory agenda through S. 510!”

            Campaign 4 Liberty

          • Kinetic1

            Bruce,
            I’ll take your word for it. It is an unfortunate reality that our politicians are far more connected with business and their lobbyists than they are with the majority of us. I would be hard pressed to find a politician who was not connected with at least one major company that I had issues with. I can only take solace in the fact that, while G.E. is not my favorite, there are certainly worse.

          • Denniso

            Kyle is not my senator…another repub hack who plays to the phony tea party.

        • Don

          You are right about the level of education these kids are receiving but then look at who is teaching them, a bunch of liberals with there queer outlook on life, you liberals all disgust me

          • HFlashman

            Don..if you look over th education stats…maybe you would note where most of the college bound students come from. The Red States aren’t very well represented y’know. Makes you wonder doesn’t it?

          • libertytrain

            I’m guess Flash you are not well-educated on this subject —- NC is a red state – for instance – with what are considered some of the finest Universities in the USA – and they aren’t empty.

          • HFlashman

            Liberty…straight from the US Census Bureau. Note the two southern states performing above national Averages…both not really “southern” nor solid Red States.

            In 2008, North Carolina ranked thirty-eighth. (Figure 12.) The state’s five-year high school graduation rate climbed to 71.8 percent, 1.6 percent under the national average. [ 29 ] N.C. St. Bd. of Educ., Dep’t of Pub. Instruction, Facts and Figures 2008-09, http://www.ncpublicschools.org/docs/fbs/resources/data/factsfigures/2008-09figures.pdf (last visited Feb. 2, 2010). (Two southern states—Virginia and Florida—managed to outperform the national average.)

            Educational attainment in North Carolina remains plagued by racial disparity. Slightly over 87 percent of white North Carolinians have graduated from high school, while (an improved) 79.3 percent of African Americans and only 51.7 percent of Hispanics have a diploma. Though almost 30 percent of white Tar Heels have a college degree, only 16 percent of blacks and 12.8 percent of Hispanics do. And the numbers of all three fronts—for both high school and college education—fall below national averages. (Figure 16.)¶

          • libertytrain

            sorry, you mentioned colleges – My mistake I did misread college-bound – I guess all the bright Northern kids must just come here for their higher-level schooling – couldn’t have any Southerners in schools like Duke, Chapel Hill, Georgia Tech, Virginia Tech, etc. I just read – that we are rapidly falling below our counterparts in the rest of the world, as a Country in the education of our children- but being a Southerner, I’m not too bright so what do I know – I’m sure I was wrong – and I, for one, would not dare question the Census Bureau.

          • Bruce D.

            Don..if you look over th education stats…maybe you would note where most of the college bound students come from. The Red States aren’t very well represented y’know. Makes you wonder doesn’t it?

            I do not believe that HFlashman. The problem with the left is that they are a little too wrapped up in themselves. They think they are more important and better than they really are.

          • denniso

            With all due respect, some of your rightwing fellows on this site make it difficult not to feel superior…you would have to agree.

          • libertytrain

            Ah, having been raised a lib demo amongst them, I was forced to come to the sad conclusion long ago that most libs do have an incredible superiority complex -

          • denniso

            Feeling superior to racists,haters and villains is not a vice. Do you feel superior morally to Hitler or Stalin or Pol Pot?? Aren’t you and most here morally superior to terrorists who blow up little kids,Muslim or Christian?

        • http://?? Joe H.

          Dogma-free,
          I never learned to think for myself?? How much are you in debt?? I and my wife have a five bedroom house, three vehicles, and we owe NOBODY!!!! We owe zip, nada, NOTHING!!! I think that’s a fair job of thinking for myself!! I’ve never been without a job as when I was younger my dad taught me one thing and that was plan for the worst. I have a good quality welder and as long as it holds out, I can earn a living. I have enough in the bank that if I had to I could replace it as well!!!

        • Bruce D.

          Denniso there is a lot of graft and misspending in the military budget. One war is winding down. Places like Germany and South Korea should be paying 100% of the defense we provide them. It would be stupid not to have a strong defense but people in both parties lack any will to cut fraud and waste out of any area of government. I use to advocate staying out of foreign affairs. Now that the proliferation of nuclear weapons seems eminent it would not be wise. Reagan was a visionary when he pushed for Star Wars. Bush was right to put a missile defense system is Poland. Barrack Obama was wrong to withdraw it without having an agreement with Russia to cut off trade with Iran. But Obama is in way over his head. As a community organizer all he knows how to do is spend money and his efforts in Chicago werte a complete failure as money does not realy solve problems unless it changes peoples bad habbits.

          • denniso

            You didn’t say if you favored the end of the bush tax cuts to prevent a $4trillion greater hole in the debt over ten yrs…I’m sure if you are sincerely concerned about the red ink you would want the tax cuts ended as they were designed to.

          • http://yahoo.com chas butterfield

            Denniso / Kinetic1 continue to use EVERY tired slogan/ cliche/ non-sequiter in the Blue-shirted Liberal NAZI/ Alinsky playbook…NO substance/ NO sources/NO logic; just the SAME old use of DENIAL/ PROJECTION/ EQUIVALENCE of inadequate “idiot”-ology….”Heritage Foundation”( falsely attributed as a SOURCE by this IMBECILE!!) is, OF COURSE, a MUCH more trusted source of info( Kinet1′s over-inflated ego DENIES it!!…AND….She accuses others of USING it !![tsk, tsk; HATE showing even MORE....])

          • denniso

            That reminds me…I assumed that Kinetic1 is a man. My mistake since I don’t know,and it doesn’t matter anyway.

      • JeffH

        HFlash, It’s official, you’re a socialist at heart. Got any other commie talking points you’d like to share Ms. Couric Flashman?

        How about “I really cannot stand rich, selfish people. I do believe in redistribution of wealth. Rich people do not get that way by themselves, they do it on the backs of others.” or “Rich people got rich by screwing everyone else. Rich people stay rich by screwing everyone else even harder.”

        It’s just so much easier to cast them as callous, selfish monsters and evil exploiters of the working class while preserving the mantle of goodness and righteousness for yourself. Hey, you may be poor, but at least you’re a nice person, right?

        I’ll leave you with one last thought…Sarah Palin!

        • JeffH

          Actually, this would be standard fare for all of the liberal/socialists.

          Another last thought….Glenn Beck!

          Ben, again you’ve nailed it! You’ve brought out the best of the foaming and frothing denniso also. Good lord, I couldn’t imagine going through life that miserable.

          • Kinetic1

            Oh yes, and Glenn Beck who has followed the leads of Rush and Hannity, but with a more religious spin. How grand it is to take millions in return for spreading lies.

          • DaveH

            Yes, Kinetic, you are right. Your lies are free.

          • eddie47d

            I’m surprised Dave that you like all of Glenn Beck’s religious spin or any of his spin at all. For a free thinking Libertarian you have a real blind spot.

          • Denniso

            Limbaugh,Beck,Savage and more are only money grubbing charlatans playing their followers like chumps,while they work to destroy American.

          • denniso

            DaveH belongs to a fringe group and he needs to try and expand his little group by allying himself w/ the rightwingers,so almost anything they do he will accept because he has cast his fortunes w/ them.

            Now,why he mistakenly thinks that the rightwing is a better fit for his brand of libertarianism is a little shaky,but my guess is that it comes down to money since the Repubs are always promising tax cuts and lying about smaller gov’t. He forgets that the rightwing is very far from being anything like libertarian,as they are constantly wanting to tell people how to live their personal lives and trying to force religion into public life.

          • denniso

            JeffH…you’re right on buddy. Who does like selfish people,rich or not? I sure as hell don’t. And you’re also correct in stating that no one makes it all on their own. We all are in this together and all benefit from the safety,security,infrastructure,financial system insured by gov’t and more. How could I be in business w/o gov’t provided roads and large subsidies to airlines and trains? All provide by tax money that almost everyone pays in,one way or another.

          • JC

            Denniso, the Founding Fathers of our nation were Libertarian by definition. The principles they laid down for this nation are what made it great.
            Not a bunch of envious controlling frothing at the mouth socialist sycophants…

            So beware of that “fringe group” coming your way like a tidal wave.
            They’re Americans.

          • Denniso

            They’re naive and not consistent…they could be fighting things like the patriot act,drug war,environmental destruction,discrimination and patently unfair gov’t policies pushed by the corporatist Republicans…

        • Kinetic1

          JeffH,
          Are you referring to how she quit her job as Governor to pursue a carrier of wealth through populism?

          • DaveH

            You Liberals can’t make up your minds. You don’t want her in political office, but when she gets out you complain about that.
            Why don’t you guys get together, pool your monies, start a company, risk your money and your self-esteem, and get rich yourselves. Then you wouldn’t have to sit in the grandstands whining about the people who have taken the initiative and scored.

          • DaveH

            It’s much easier to attempt to drag others down to your level, Kinetic, than to put in the effort to elevate yourselves, isn’t it?

          • Kinetic1

            Dave,
            I have my own company. I have, through the years employed many people. If I were to “drag down” everyone to my families level the bottom 50% would be in MUCH better shape. When we debate who pays what in taxes, we may not be in the top 1%, but we’re closing in. Of course, this means we actually pay a larger effective percentage than those earning 5 times what we do, so I’m not to worried about asking them to pay their fair share.

            As for Mrs. Palin, I don’t care what she is doing to earn a living, but I am offended by those who hold her up as an example of what is great about America. She’s as phony as they come and her false populous persona is having a negative effect on our nation. So let her play outdoorsy for the TV or buy votes for her daughter, I don’t care. Just quit pretending that she cares about America and admit that it’s all about getting rich.

          • DaveH

            You know, Kinetic, most of the Liberals that have stated their employment conditions have said the same thing – they have their own companies. Isn’t that coincidental? Is that what you are coached to say?
            For my part, you are wasting your time talking about your personal life because I would not put my stake in the word of a Liberal.

          • HFlashman

            DaveH…send me your email and contact information. I’ll send you an employment app to fill out. You’ll need a background in one of three areas…Hi Tech, Ag (especially if you’ve worked with Satellite imagery), or banking/finance. Bi lingual is an asset though not required. College education if applying for managerial position. Must be willing to work in a small business environment (meaning pitch in where needed at any given time)

            Ironically…the hourly wage guys holding just HS education are mostly GOP minded…the higher the position and education, the more likely they distance themselves from the “conservatives’ of today’s ilk.

            The company has enough hourly wage applicants…and i suspect you don’t have the background for the managerial positions…

          • Bruce D.

            HFlashman get over yourself. You are a little bit too full of yourself as most liberals are, wealthy or poor.

          • DaveH

            Flashdunce,
            You just don’t get it, do you? First of all, I wouldn’t work for a creep like you. Secondly, what makes you Liberals think you have any credibility at all? People who are willing to take other peoples’ money forcefully are capable of any kind of immoral action. Lying comes easy to creepy Liberals. I certainly wouldn’t divulge my email address to an immoral Liberal. Even if you did have a company, you would be the last person I would work with or for.

          • Michael J.

            Kenetic1 and HFlashman,
            I posted these comments several days ago, but these thoughts seem even more appropriate here than when I first posted them.

            ——————————————————————–

            Is higher learning overrated?

            Todays edu-zealots have dealt a serious injustice to human capital qualifications and their analyses for the purpose of employment. By smugly championing higher education as key to economic success like nauseating, holier than thou snivets, they’ve distorted important public policy debates about how and why people get hired and paid well.

            By standing on high, peering down their noses they’ve undermined useful arguments about “street smarts” versus “book smarts.” Treating education as the best proxy for human capital is like using patents as your proxy for measuring innovation… Hogwash, its underlying logic shouldn’t obscure the fact that you’ll underweigh market leaders like WalMart, Google, Tata and Toyota. Dare I point out that Microsoft’s Bill Gates, Dell’s Michael Dell, Apple’s Steve Jobs, Oracle’s Larry Ellison and Facebook’s Mark Zuckerberg are all college drop-outs? Or the fact that they employ armies of college grads under their collective wings, and that they have themselves managed to surpass these individuals without the benefit of higher learning.

            The point isn’t to declare a college degree antithetical to launching a high-tech juggernaut career but, to observe that perhaps higher education is niether essential nor the key element to effective entrepreneurship.

            The bottom line is that higher education is no guarantee of success for a loser, and winners won’t be held back without it. Society’s pathfinders do not require, and are not burdened by a lack of oral, written, digital or virtual roadmaps, but instead find their own way to the top instinctively.

          • eddie47d

            Kinetic; I believe Dave H. has a crush on ol’ Sarah Palin. Sounds like he is trying to protect his woman.

          • Kinetic1

            Michael J,
            Thanks for implying that I have achieved a higher level of formal education than I have. Truth is, I have been denied advancement many times due to my lack of a college degree, only to see a know nothing business school grad placed in charge of me. My grandfather faced the same hurtles, though he found himself a position solving problems that trained engineers were unable to. Your point is not lost on me. I recently read a report that says our nation faces a shortage of plumbers and electricians. Students want to earn the “big bucks” and enjoy the prestige of being a lawyer or a heart surgeon. Even becoming a family doctor is frowned upon. it’s a national shame.

            Now, don’t think for a minute that I don’t value education. I have continued to study over the years, even if I have not formalized that work. On the other hand, my wife has used her education to do very well in her field. Without her degree she could not have reached her current position. That having been said, I have often thought about the education system that was described by my high school German teacher. She spoke of a system where, at the age of about 13 you were tested for aptitude. If you did well enough, the state would offer you the opportunity to continue on towards university. If not, you would finnish your basic schooling and continue on to an appropriate trade school or apprentice program. Given all the kids I’ve met who look at college as a way to avoid responsibility for another 4 years, I’m not so certain that this is such a bad idea.

        • JeffH

          Kinetic1, I can only laugh at both of your comments…hook,line,and sinker!

        • HFlashman

          Jeff…I know..i’m very poor. So much that in ’11..maybe ’12 I may realistically have the tax issues which the higher incomes are trying to evade. I should be so unlucky. Maybe I should quit today so i don’t have to worry about paying that extra 4% eh?

          Let me guess…you’d turn it down yourself because you’d have to pay too much in taxes and rather would have the lower income so you too wouldn’t have to fret about it.

          • Bruce D.

            HFlashman there is a box on the tax returns for those wanting to donate more of their earnings. Spend your money anyway you want but stop trying to tell others what to do with theirs. Most on the right prefer giving to the charities of their chose. The more money government consumes the more power it has and the more power it wants over the taxpayers and non taxpayers alike. When government gives money it is not considered charity it is considered entitlement which gives those taking it the impression they deserve it when they do not. The left are already trying to convince the illegals that they deserve something they do not.

          • JeffH

            Sorry to dissappoint Flash. I really could care less if you were rich or poor. You’re a Marxist harpy! That, in itself, speaks volumes about you.

          • http://?? Joe H.

            JeffH,
            IF and it’s a big IF he has a business, he inherited it from DADDY and daddy is rolling over in the ground over how he is running it into the ground!!! either that or he has one of those rolling hotdog stands you see in New York!!!

          • Denniso

            Jeff and Joe are at it again,saying nothing while acting like little kids…sort of like Mutt and Jeff, remember them?

      • Margaret

        HFlashman: Who pays you for your “comments”? Who is behind your verbosity? There is NO way, you are a normal American blog reader! It’s just not possible. You are a plant.

        • eddie47d

          OH Yes Margaret such wise words of wisdom! He get’s paid $100 for 2 hours of work and in Cuban cigars paid for by Hugo Chavez. I always wonder how much they pay Joe and Jeff for their mindless comments.BLA,Bla,Bla or Duh,Duh,Duhh! Jeff’s back has got to hurt with all the bending over he does in defending the elite rich and their corporate cronies. Come on Joe and Jeff I know you’re waiting with baited breath. First of all brush your teeth then respond!

          • Denniso

            So, it’s the ‘plant’ theory raising it’s head again?? These rightwingers just can’t imagine there are articulate liberals/progressives/Democrats who can think and rebut the nonsense we see here from so many of the posters. Like I’ve said before,sign me up to be a paid plant so I can make a little quick cash,please…

          • libertytrain

            Denniso – with the most recent posts I quite frankly haven’t read any of those articulate posts from you or your side -

      • Bus

        Flash, you’ve got to be happy they extended your unemployment for another year so you have the time to continue your conservative education by reading such intellectual articles from Crystal and the others.

        • http://yahoo.com chas butterfield

          Denniso:
          NOT included in the “intelligent category….Takes NO critical thinking abilities to see how “Sultry Sarah”/ “Mama Grizzly” went to fame / fortune / King-Queen maker, Reality TV star, top political commentator on #1 News network, TWICE million seller author…AND…. Made members of her OWN family rich/ famous in JUST TWO YEARS!!…SHE CONNECTS!!…SHE SELLS!!( even the Blue-shirted liberal NAZI “Baba Wa=Wa” has established her as the ONLY PERSON to make her “Most Fascinating People”LIST THREE TIMES!![LOTS of "firsts" for Palin!!...UNPRECEDENTED!!])…AND…She used that fame/ fortune /power to MURDER the Blue-shirted Liberal NAZIZ in congress in the previous election cycle….You are NOT WORTHY of denigrating ANYONE!!

          • Denniso

            Your writing style is almost totally incomprehensible.

  • Les

    Social Security Tax
    Federal Tax
    State Tax
    County Tax
    Sales Tax
    Gas Tax
    Property Tax
    Estate Tax
    And all these are also followed by other mandated expenditures such as mandatory insurance and registration fees.

    Life Liberty & the pursuit of what happiness????

    • Denniso

      Civility?? Name calling?? It seems that Ben Crystal has himself broken the rules posted above by Bob LIvingston,in asking us to not stoop to name calling and remaining civil. It’s not surprising then that people on here follow suit and sound like school yard kids and bullies trying to chase others off the site w/ inflamatory language and even threats. Not very civil…

      I have to ask Mr. Crystal if he comes at all close to understanding quantum mechanics or much of anything that Hawking talks about? Hyperbole can be a useful tool in discussion,but it should be just a bit grounded to have any effect.

      • Karolyn

        Denniso – That’s why all these conservatives love Crystal so much. He writes derogatory “journalism” very well. Talk about Sheeple.

        • lkar

          And the left is pious journalism?

        • S.C.Murf

          How about your man Reid from Nevada. Now he’s trying to add a rider (ear mark) to the tax bill to allow all of his big backers, the casinos of las vegas, so as they can get in on the internet gambling and exclusively first licences go to the big casinos of nevada. Talk about a crook. And he doesn’t care how it looks because as he believes money talks and everything else walks. I pray to God that ALL liberals aren’t this way but from the talk you are spewing today I’m afraid I’m hoping for a dream

        • Kate8

          Denniso, And yet you guys are here, day after day, to mock and deride, antagonise and insult.

          If you find it so distasteful here, why not give us all a break and go to Huffpo?

          Or get a life.

          • JeffH

            Kate8, misery loves company, If denniso can make someone elses life as miserable as its own it becomes a “happy camper” in an unhappy way.
            Kinda’ twisted if you ask me.

          • Michael J.

            Kate8,
            It’s fear. Subconscious fear of dying because of a lack of faith and spiritualism manifesting itself as hate. Hate for their country, Capitalism, the opposite sex and everything non-communist.
            Edu-zealots, the college indoctrinated impressional youths who were bathed in slogans like “Make love, not war” , “Homosexuality is normal/natural”, “We are all citizens of the world” culminates in the perceived no-brainer of aetheism.

            Being consumed by this smug Godless feeling of superior intellectualism as youths is replaced by the middle age seeping realization that no beleif in God means after death the only thing they have to look forward to is a one way trip to a whole in the ground. This subconscious gnawing leads to hatred of everything that surrounds them because they are not at peace without the spirituality that supports the rest of us. This internal strife leads ultimately too insanity.

          • eddie47d

            That was a mouthful of pious talk! I thought Jerry Falwell had passed away?

          • Denniso

            Kate8…get a life? Thank you but I’ve got plenty going on. Now, your people here could use that advice from you as they are here constantly,while people like me come and go. Sure,much of the talk here is more than distasteful and downright disgusting, but we non rightwing zealots feel a duty to humanity and the country to rebut and challenge some of this absurd ‘thinking’ going on. You poor rithwingers often whine about those of us you don’t like and you try to run us off w/ foul language and insults,but you might do better if you just suck it up and do some homework so you have something to debate with.

            You don’t like being challenged and you all want to just spew and stew in your anger and venom…well, sorry, we have some fun here and
            you folks can also leave if you can’t hack it. Comprende usted?

          • Denniso

            WOW Michael J, thanks for the free psychoanalysis on my behalf. You sound like you really know psychology and human nature and I’m indebted to you for life for seting me straight. I wonder if you could also analyze my financial affairs and maybe also for no charge?

            But just one small correction,rather than going insane I’m surprisingly doing quite well and one of the happiest people around.
            Maybe you made a mistake in your deep thought on my personal philosophy,like that you and these other yahoos have a clue about my ‘belief’ system. What you may know is that I don’t believe in superstition or fairy tales like some do,but as to a more profound and deeper idea about the universe and it’s creation,you are blind.

            That may account for the small mistake in your analysis of me,but what the heck,it was free…thanks for the effort.

          • http://?? Joe H.

            Dumnisso,
            I don’t know, I read his analysis and it sounds pretty spot on!!!! fits you and your nonsense post about perfect!! Try again boo boo!!

      • DaveH

        Dumniso,
        Your comments are usually filled with name-calling, undeserved condescension, fabricated facts, and other forms of adolescent manipulation (including the above comment). The pot calling the kettle black.
        I do understand though. When one has nothing material to add to the debate, attempted Liberal manipulation is so much easier.

        • Peter

          Oh DaveH, please, please take your own arguments to their logical conclusion. If folks, rich or poor, shouldn’t build in bad places (agreed), and expect govt handouts when things go awry, why is it then that it was ok with all the rich folks on Wall St for the govt to bail them out when they built their financial homes on such shaky soil and both GOP & Dem govt’s allowed them to do it?
          I am neither GOP nor Dem. I’m a centrist because there’s good and bad in every extreme, and this article by Ben is such an extremist mega beat-up using selective quotes that it needs to be exposed for that alone. Terrible and biased journalism. It’s this kind of rhetoric that brings nations into civil war. Not that this one article will do that, but it’s a prime example, spitting venom against your own countrymen who simply have a differing point of view in the ‘Land of the Free’ where freedom of speech and association is guaranteed…isn’t it? Or is it only guaranteed if you agree with a certain paradigm?

          • Warrior

            Maybe we should check with Al Sharpton on this?

          • DaveH

            Peter,
            I have no idea why you would say that to me. Have I supported the bailouts somewhere in my comments? Please find such and report back.

          • eddie47d

            If Ben Crystal would say strawberries are are purple or blueberries are orange at least 60% of the folks on this site would agree with him. If you could prove him wrong with pictures you would still be labeled a liberal liar. I bet Ben could turn a pumpkin into a watermelon with his magical words and vast knowledge of nothing.

          • Peter

            DaveH, It is the logical conclusion of your argument, that’s all. You can’t state that folks who build in a dangerous place shouldn’t ask others to help them, without including the folks on Wall St who built their wealth in dangerous places then accepted govt bailout money. Same principal applies, but as usual, extremists only want to see their side of the argument, without realizing that corporate America is using all GOP supporters as political cannon fodder. They want you to support tiny govt and few regulations, so they can go back to manufacturing money-making instruments out of thin air, with no responsibility to anyone but themselves. They want to continue with their corporate economic terrorism (not my term, but one coined by corporate insiders a couple of years ago), regardless of its’ effect on the American people. It’s a ‘Screw you Jack, I’m OK’ mentality that goes with the extremes of wealth. I have nothing against anyone making an honest buck, in business or working for someone, but the mega-greed that you are inadvertently supporting by your denigration of others and refusal to look at both sides of the fence and find a middle ground, is making the big end of town very happy indeed. Time to wake up and smell the roses people

          • http://?? Joe H.

            edduuuh!
            If, by what you say you mean YOU, you are quite correct as we know beyond a shadow of a doubt that you, indeed, ARE a liberal liar!!!!

    • 45caliber

      I know what you mean! One thing that chaps me is that the Dems in particular want to do away with the SS checks to retirees. But if you mention doing away with the tax they come unglued.

      • eddie47d

        What? I have never heard any Democrat who wants to do away with SS.

        • http://GOGGLE vaksal

          HELLO eddie47d,well heres one you can look up as a fact,president john f. kennedy was the first president of the united states to raid social security to fund the space race against the russians and raided those funds again when admiral hyman rickover adressed the washington naval intelligence board that we needed to build a large nuclear submarine force to counter the submarine force the russians had,the point is this democratic president was the first to raid those funds,and at that time was the largest money making tool in the history of the world bigger than any company,until the 1980s when it was brought to a point of being so debt ridden and full of worthless loans to congress,democrats and rhinos,to fund every give away program that could be divised by all the folks,that wanted their own pet funding,that money was put in by folks like me to be held in trust to help those that put in to that fund,and over the years the dumocrats have been the worst of raiding those funds,but in fairness,george bush jr. tryed to privatize it.by coming up with the wallstreet investment scam,i remember that very well,the point is here we all are fighting against each other,when in truth we should be firing all those who have bankrupted this nation by robbing all of us blind,of our national wealth and our liberties,and identities as a free law bidding nation,instead this agenda of considering the american voter as some mindless stock animal to be used as a cash cow must stop,if not it will died very soon,and with that,good bye america and welcome the banana republic,where we will face a dark fate where human life means nothing,and as an older american i must post these hard cold truths,weve have been all been betrayed by this (NWO) bunch in power worst than we could ever imagine,hopefully this new tea party bunch will take this corrupt bunch to task,and wipe out this democratic left wing neo-com communist bunch out before its to late,or we will see this nation go into total anarchy,eddie47 the point is the democrats started destroying social secrurity first,(THE ELECTED CON-MEN AND WOMEN) THAT WE ALL TRUSTED TO GUARD THIS NATIONS CITIZENS,RICH AND POOR ALIKE,so please dont throw this misinformation about social security,they are all guilty of robbing us all,these self serving jerks in government.have an enlightened day.

          • eddie47d

            Now if the Democrats did away with SS they wouldn’t have anyplace to raid! The SS is solvent until 2037, but shame on those who raided it.

      • lkar

        Actually, I have to agree with Eddie (might be the first time). The Democrats do not want to do away with SS.

        However, with Obamacare, they may just take care of the “old age” problem. Somebody has to be denied service if you add more patients and lose more doctors.

        • Kinetic1

          Ikar,
          Before you go blaming Obama, take a look at Governor Jan Brewer. Based on admittedly bad advise, Arizona “cut costs” by denying coverage to those needing transplants. Even as almost 100 Arizonans face certain death, Brewer will not call the state lawmakers back to reconsider their actions. Oh, she’ll use her stimulus money to put a new roof on a stadium, but keeping a 36 year old father of three, or a young basketball couch alive, that’s just irresponsible. Hey Sarah! Still looking for those Democratic death panels? Try Republicans.

          • DaveH

            You just provided support for Ikar. Thanks. It doesn’t matter whether they are Democrats or Republicans that withhold the care, you have admitted that it will be withheld.
            Add to that the fact that the middleman costs money (his salary), and he interferes with the choices of the patient and what do you have? You have less money and fewer choices for the healthcare recipients in the country.
            You gotta love these Liberals. They are so full of ideas for wasting more of our money and taking more of our Freedom away.

        • Karolyn

          People who abuse the system need to be denied. Too may people crowd doctors’ offices for stupid reasons. If more people took care of their own bodies, we would have less of a problem. They catch a sniffle – run to the doctor. They have a hangnail – run to the doctor. Their kid coughs – run to the doctor. It is unfortunate that old people listen more to their doctors than to their own bodies. I’ve heard of more old people dying because of medication complications than the disease they have.

          • Denniso

            It’s one of the problems w/ insurance…people don’t feel like they are paying for the service so they can tend to abuse it. But, w/ the outrageous cost of healthcare there doesn’t seem to be a choice. We should have single payer healthcare w/ the gov’t watching the costs of the providers. Heathcare does not work well w/in the market system,except for the rich.

      • Kate8

        45, It’s the elderly they want to get rid of.

        • eddie47d

          Wrong!!

          • Dan az

            Whats the matter edeeeee did your mother just walk in on ya!

    • lkar

      Check your phone bill, more taxes and fees.
      Check your electric bill, more taxes and fees.
      Check your water bill, more taxes and fees.
      Check your garbage bill, more taxes and fees.
      Have you stayed at hotel lately? Rented a car? Flew on an airplane? More taxes and fees!!!
      Then every year I get a tax bill on my 1968 Pontiac! I cannot even own a classic car (bought and paid for many times over in the taxes assessed for it)without paying more taxes.

      Les is correct, life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness???

      • eddie47d

        I assume you use the roads occasionally in that ’68 Pontiac. That is what the tax is for.

        • lkar

          So then what is the gas tax for?

        • DaveH

          The roads these days are in worse condition than I can remember in my lifetime.

        • Bruce D.

          If government can tax you year after year on the things you own then maybe you really do not own it. Government does and you are just leasing it from them. The gas tax is what is suppose to pay for the roads and that is a pretty hefty tax. One that I am in agreement with if used properly.

          • http://none Mike

            Bruce, You said a mouthfull in one sentance. We are now all on a rental basis from the goverment be it state local or federal.Dont belive this dont pay your properity thax. Your land will be seized along with any assets therin and sold to pay thoes taxes. So do you really own your properties or does the goverment.

            Also dont pay income taxes. Your assets and properties are seized and you are jailed for a time. So do you really own you? Or are you only renting your freedoms and body from the goverment?Mike L.

          • Bruce D.

            I agree Mike. The taxes I support are the excise tax, the toll road fare, import duties, user fees on government parks, a one time excise tax on property when you buy it(not every year), the lottery tax, and things like that. I support the taxes that do not give government control over property, possessions, and ones own body. IIt gives government too much power and it just isn’t right that they can have that kind of control over us. It does not support the principles of freedom. Tax us but don’t use taxes to control us.

          • Denniso

            None of us likes taxes,we just accept that we need some to pay for running the country. I agree that we have way too many different taxes on way too many things,many not very fair or affordable to lots of people. But,the reason we break taxation up into so many separate taxes that seem to pervade everything is because the gov’t entities are forced by public pressure to keep income and sales taxes as low as possible and then come up w/ all these other taxes to make up the difference. It’s also a way to have people pay for those aspects of gov’t services that they actually use.

            I hate all the myriad taxes that pop up all over the place.

      • Dan az

        Accounts Receivable Tax

        Building Permit Tax

        Capital Gains Tax

        CDL license Tax

        Cigarette Tax

        Corporate Income Tax

        Court Fines (indirect taxes)

        Dog License Tax

        Federal Income Tax

        Federal Unemployment Tax (FUTA)

        Fishing License Tax

        Food License Tax

        Fuel permit tax

        Gasoline Tax (42 cents per gallon)

        Hunting License Tax

        Inheritance Tax Interest expense (tax on the money)

        Inventory tax IRS Interest Charges (tax on top of tax)

        IRS Penalties (tax on top of tax)

        Liquor Tax

        Local Income Tax

        Luxury Taxes

        Marriage License Tax

        Medicare Tax

        Property Tax

        Real Estate Tax

        Septic Permit Tax

        Service Charge Taxes

        Social Security Tax

        Road Usage Taxes (Truckers)

        Sales Taxes

        Recreational Vehicle Tax

        Road Toll Booth Taxes

        School Tax

        State Income Tax

        State Unemployment Tax (SUTA)

        Telephone federal excise tax

        Telephone federal universal service fee tax

        Telephone federal, state and local surcharge taxes

        Telephone minimum usage surcharge tax

        Telephone recurring and non-recurring charges tax

        Telephone state and local tax

        Telephone usage charge tax

        Toll Bridge Taxes

        Toll Tunnel Taxes

        Traffic Fines (indirect taxation)

        Trailer registration tax

        Utility Taxes

        Vehicle License Registration Tax

        Vehicle Sales Tax

        Watercraft registration Tax

        Well Permit Tax

        Workers Compensation Tax

        COMMENTS: Not one of these taxes existed 100 years ago and our nation was the most prosperous in the world, had absolutely no national debt, had the largest middle class in the world and Mom stayed home to raise the kids. What the hell happened?

  • JKO

    Amen, Mr. C. I believe that if we payed congress, the prez, and the supreme court justices a higher end salary closer to what the average citizens make we would do several things. 1. reduce the deicit. 2. have those who have never known it what it is like to have to sacrifice buying this to get braces for your kid or something. 3. Maybe they would not stay in office as long.
    These people make $175,000 / year. They also may have drivers, private flights on jets, gas paid for, not to mention all the perks from lobbyists and others.
    Oh yeah, and if they commit a crime they just get a little hand slap.
    One last thing: when I leave my job, I don’t get paid for it for the rest of my life, like the President. The Founders did not set things up like this. When the President and other govt. workers are out of office they should not get paid.
    If we do this stuff, lets see how the retoric changes in Washington.
    Finally, I’m with Robin. Let’s implement a fair tax. Even God only requests 10% of my income. Why should Washington get more than God?

    • CJ

      Higher tax RATES does not mean more dollars. God’s tithing is over everything. The govt’s 33% applies to non-exempted amounts, a far lesser amount in the end.

      • 45caliber

        And if you truly believe that, have I got a deal for you!

  • CJ

    All I hear in the media is “taxes” and “deficite” but NOBODY is saying anything about the third point… SPENDING. Keep the tax rate, cut the spending entitlements and the deficite will reduce. Republicans did it at the end of the Clinton admin, and eventually created a surpluss that spurred the current tax rates. Guess nobody in congress wants to give up their pet spending to save the economy. It’s all the tax payer’s fault because they won’t give up more of their hard earned money. And simply raising the rate on the higher incomes won’t bring in more revenue, because people will shift to another source of income, which has lower rates. They like to avoid taxes, too.

    • 45caliber

      I read a report some years ago that stated that if anyone paid more than 35% taxes, they started hunting loop holes. And there is enough loop holes that the actual tax paid DROPPED when the rates went up. When the rates went back down, they paid more. One of the reasons was that when the rates were higher it was cheaper to pay a good accountant to save you money. When it was lower, it was cheaper to pay the tax.

      True or not, I don’t know. I don’t make enough money to get in those tax brackets.

      • independant thinker

        I just read that as well. I believe it was in a Thomas Sowell article. Like you I am not in that bracket but have known for years that is what happens. The tax rate I always considered the trigger point was 33%.

        • DaveH

          I have known many people who have forgone overtime and other opportunities to earn money because they were going to be pushed into higher tax brackets if they did. They figured that the little extra money they would receive after taxes just wasn’t worth the effort. So we lost their productivity.

          • http://?? Joe H.

            DaveH,
            I used to work with a guy that would only work full hours three weeks and then miss one full day each month. He would NEVER work overtime tho it was offered. I asked him why one day and he said that if he worked the whole month full time, he didn’t get his food stamps!! I couldn’t believe it! I guess the boss even let him get away with it as it was easier than fighting the union(IBEW)!!!

      • HFlashman

        Recent reports from several sources show the actual rate of taxes paid by high income earners and Big Corporations are actually LOWER than the average wage earner. Anyone even try to look up what the average tax bill is for Big Corporate America?

        • DaveH

          Post us some proof, Flashman. Until then, we have this:
          http://www.ntu.org/tax-basics/who-pays-income-taxes.html

          And the fact that they pay sales taxes, excise taxes, and other non-progressive taxes just like the rest of us do.

          If you Liberals were really just concerned about unfair practices by the rich, things like crony-capitalism, you could study at Mises.org or other sites to learn some economics so you would realize that the best way to hobble them is to take the force of Government out of the marketplace. Without Government passing special regulations that eliminate competition, the Crony-Capitalists would have to compete on a level playing field. That should please you. Unless of course, your concern is purely motivated by Jealousy.
          As Government Grows, Corruption Flows.

          • DaveH

            And Corporations don’t pay taxes, People do. The corporate tax is just another way to feed the Leviathan Government more money in a manner that is less detectable by the ignorant masses.

          • eddie47d

            So if they do away with corporate taxes then the price of that car will be reduced by $3,000,right? I doubt it.

  • Mick

    Les says:
    December 9, 2010 at 8:03 am
    Social Security Tax
    Federal Tax
    State Tax
    County Tax
    Sales Tax
    Gas Tax
    Property Tax
    Estate Tax
    And all these are also followed by other mandated expenditures such as mandatory insurance and registration fees.

    Life Liberty & the pursuit of what happiness????
    ************************************

    Les……I know a lot of people who do not realize the amount of taxes they actually pay, i don’t understand how they can miss it, they only consider Federal taxes to be real taxes, how do we open people eyes ?????…..

    • CJ

      You left out the most distructive of all taxes… inflation. It effects everybody and applies to every dollar you have, no exemptions.

      • DaveH

        Good point, CJ.

    • http://GOGGLE vaksal

      mick,thats a lot of taxes,lucky they dont have a death tax,opps! god i just gave the crooks an idea,sorry.

  • Bob

    Maybe I’m too cynical, but I really believe Obama won big time on this one. He’s just making alot of noise about how bad it all went. It’s a diversion and the Dems, and liberal pundits know it. It’s all kabuki theater. Unfortunately, the Left is far more shrewed and devious and gamey than conservatives. They know exactly what they are doing. They are several moves ahead of conservatives on the political chessboard. They always win because they are cheats, ruthless and shameless. We conservatives can’t,don’t or won’t stand up to them. At times it all seems so hopeless.

    • JaredG

      Bob, check it out:
      “Therefore do not fear them. For there is nothing covered that will not be revealed, and hidden that will not be known”
      Matthew 10:26

      • DaveH

        And I think the Internet is going a long way towards that truth. That’s why the Liberals are trying so hard to control it.
        I believe that when it comes to a war of words, the Liberals usually lose. That’s why they must keep it on an emotional level (name-calling, etc.) because they have no legs to stand on in a logical argument.

  • Doc Sarvis

    It is the top percentage who rightfully pay a top percentage of taxes since they benefit most from our situation (form of government, infrastructure, resources, etc.). I’m also sure that rich Democrats (at least the majority of them-there’s always a few bad apples) who are pushing for the elimination of the tax cuts for the wealthy are willing and certainly able to pay more.

    • FlaJim

      Doc, you’re wrong – as usual. Why does someone have to pay a higher percentage rate simply because he’s more successful? Why do those (about 40%) who are least successful pay absolutely nothing. The first group also demands the fewest government services; the latter demands the most. How this squares in your thinking is beyond me.

      Also, if these leftists Dems want to pay more voluntary taxes, the Treasury will accept with no questions asked. That would include you, since you seem so gung-ho on increased taxes.

      • Doc Sarvis

        Apparently, you narrowly define success by wealth. A cleaning lady, a bank teller, a fast food worker, an assembly line worker, and even a fat-cat corporate exec. can all be successful. They can all be hard workers as well. Of course the opposite is true for all of these as well.

        • http://?? Joe H.

          Doc,
          but which one drains the economy more in the form of services and gifts???

          • Doc Sarvis

            I think there is plenty of drain on both sides.

          • http://?? Joe H.

            Doc,
            Read a little closer. I asked which drains MORE?!?!?!?!?

          • Denniso

            If people get subsidies or tax rebates because they earn so little they are not ‘draining’ the economy. Gov’t expenditures for such things are quite small compared to the whole economy. What about the huge corporate subsidies that go to agri biz and military contractors? Is that OK because it goes to more wealthy people?

            The lower income workers in the country are crucial to the actual running of the society in many ways and we would be in real difficulty
            w/o them. If the Repubs didn’t fight so hard to supress their wages maybe they would be paying more in tax and not need subsidizing.

    • 45caliber

      Doc:

      Really? Do you want to explain why so many Dems don’t pay any taxes at all??

      • Doc Sarvis

        My comment was acknowledging that some people wrongly ignore paying their taxes, be they Democrats, Republicans, or “other”.

      • Karolyn

        How many 45? And how many repubs? Do you know?

        • Doc Sarvis

          I don’t know, do you? I am referring to the population as a whole. All stripes of people have their share of law breakers.

          • Karolyn

            My question was directed to 45caliber.

          • Doc Sarvis

            karolyn
            My bad.

        • DaveH

          Who cares if they are Republicans or Democrats, Karolyn? The facts are that 50% of the people pay less than 3% of the income taxes.

          • DaveH

            In other words, the top 50% are basically slaves to the bottom 50%.

          • Doc Sarvis

            DaveH
            That’s funny.

          • DaveH

            Yeah, the old time Southern Plantation owners probably thought so too.

          • Denniso

            If people don’t make enough money to pay much in taxes because their wages have stayed flat or gone down in real dollars while all costs have increased, I hardly think that no matter how much the top 50% pay they are not the slaves of the bottom 50%. Pretty absurd…

          • Denniso

            I meant to write,’I hardly think the top 50% are slaves of the lower 50%’.

    • Dan az

      Accounts Receivable Tax

      Building Permit Tax

      Capital Gains Tax

      CDL license Tax

      Cigarette Tax

      Corporate Income Tax

      Court Fines (indirect taxes)

      Dog License Tax

      Federal Income Tax

      Federal Unemployment Tax (FUTA)

      Fishing License Tax

      Food License Tax

      Fuel permit tax

      Gasoline Tax (42 cents per gallon)

      Hunting License Tax

      Inheritance Tax Interest expense (tax on the money)

      Inventory tax IRS Interest Charges (tax on top of tax)

      IRS Penalties (tax on top of tax)

      Liquor Tax

      Local Income Tax

      Luxury Taxes

      Marriage License Tax

      Medicare Tax

      Property Tax

      Real Estate Tax

      Septic Permit Tax

      Service Charge Taxes

      Social Security Tax

      Road Usage Taxes (Truckers)

      Sales Taxes

      Recreational Vehicle Tax

      Road Toll Booth Taxes

      School Tax

      State Income Tax

      State Unemployment Tax (SUTA)

      Telephone federal excise tax

      Telephone federal universal service fee tax

      Telephone federal, state and local surcharge taxes

      Telephone minimum usage surcharge tax

      Telephone recurring and non-recurring charges tax

      Telephone state and local tax

      Telephone usage charge tax

      Toll Bridge Taxes

      Toll Tunnel Taxes

      Traffic Fines (indirect taxation)

      Trailer registration tax

      Utility Taxes

      Vehicle License Registration Tax

      Vehicle Sales Tax

      Watercraft registration Tax

      Well Permit Tax

      Workers Compensation Tax

      COMMENTS: Not one of these taxes existed 100 years ago and our nation was the most prosperous in the world, had absolutely no national debt, had the largest middle class in the world and Mom stayed home to raise the kids. What the hell happened?
      So Doc who pays these taxes the rich?

      • http://?? Joe H.

        Dan az,
        sorry, but i didn’t notice but did you include bed tax and entertainment tax???

  • Buddy

    The government doesn’t have an income problem – - it has an outgo problem.

    Comment to Mick: Open people’s eyes by paying them their total income. . . then bill them for the taxes. This withholding system is the blinder.

  • David Warheit

    Okay, Mr. Crystal, here is your English lesson for the day. When Congress passes a bill which becomes law wherein tax rates are cut, that is a tax cut. When they pass a bill wherein tax rates rise, that is a tax increase. You with me so far? I ask that, because here is the really hard point for Republicans to understand: when Congress does nothing, there is no tax increase or tax cut. It may be that tax rates will be higher or lower from year to year, but that is not a tax cut or increase, it’s just the way things are.

    If this Congress does nothing re taxes, next year all tax rates will be higher than they are this year, but they will be exactly what everyone has known they would be for at least ten years. Perhaps an analogy will help: suppose you are at point A and you are told to walk in a straight line to point B. So you begin walking and the road is perfectly flat until you get close to point B, where you find that there is a hill in the way which you must climb in order to fulfill the order you were given. Ah, hah, you exclaim, there has been a path increase! No, sorry, the path is what it always has been. It is true that the path now becomes one which requires you to climb a hill, whereas before you were comfortably walking on a flat plain, but there has been no path increase; after all, you knew all along that that hill was there and that you would have to climb that hill, unless between the time you left point A and arrived at the hill, someone had been kind enough to remove the hill.

    Now that we understand what is going on, we see that what most Republicans want is a tax decrease or cut. Interestingly, that is exactly what most Democrats want, too. The difference is that Republicans want a bigger, indeed a vastly bigger tax cut for wealthy taxpayers (what most people are saying is persons making $250,000 or more per year) than the Democrats want. Please note that the Democratic plan also provides a tax decrease for everyone, even the wealthy, provided only that they make enough money to have to pay taxes in the first place. Under the Democratic plan, the very wealthy will get a tax decrease or cut on the first $250,000 of their income. Under the Republican plan, however, there will be a tax decrease or cut on all income. I understand that this would mean on average a cut of $100,000 for each person making $250,000 or more, as compared to the cuts they would receive under the Democratic plan.

    Okay, lesson is over, school is out.

    • Les

      Only one word “INFLATION”, do nothing I automatically pay more every year. I am tired of this BS about decreasing the taxes on the wealthy. They do not bear the burden of taxation. Tax Bill Gates at 100% and you get a one time amount of $50 billion. The Fed spent 3.8 TRILLION dollars, let me repeat that 3.8 TRILLION dollars. On what? 600 Billion for defense. So where did the other 3.2 TRILLION dollars go?

      And oh by the way if I were a billionaire and some fool started talking about taxing me at a much higher rate, I would liquidate my assets and haul all my money to a billionaire friendly country. While you get to pay the much higher rate since you can’t leave.

    • CJ

      David, it is your “school” of dillusion that is the problem. You confuse reality with desire. What you choose to ignore is people have adjusted to the amount in their pockets remaining after taxes. They don’t plan for the “mountain” before them, because it has been “built” by the left wing nuts who have not fiscal responsibility, and simply spend, spend, spend. They have the abilitiy to tear down that mountain of entitlements, and they choose, instead, to force us to give up more. This blindness of your point is what people are waking up to and saying they will no longer supply the funds to wasteful, left-wing socialism. So much for YOUR education. Because you choose to focus on the income side and not the spending side shows your concern is your agenda and not the public good.

    • FlaJim

      David, it’s this type of warped thinking that led Dems to always scream about budgets being cut in the past because the assumed annual increases were zeroed out.

      This is very simple: if the cost or rate of something goes up from one year to the next, it’s an increase; if it goes down, it’s a decrease or ‘cut’; if it stays the same, it’s neither.

    • middle

      I say we should raise tax on everyone that makes more than $100,000.
      Us poor that only make $20,000 find it hard to live on. We can only afford two tv’s two cars and a government subsadize apartment for us and our 5 children. We do get food stamps but we are entitaled to that because we don’t earn as much. But it is nice to get medical paid for so we don’t need insurance. What really helps after Christmas is any taxes paid in we will get them all back and seeing that we have children we also get eic. It is right for the government to take from those that make too much money and give to us that have it so hard. Thank you David for your support, you must be in the boat with us that don’t make so much money. We need to be fair in this country and tax the rich more than they are now. The school lunch program needs to be updated like the 1st lady says also and add dinner to the program. It already has breakfast but come on pizza for breakfast isnt good. We haven’t been able to buy a new car and those rich people get them all the time. I think the government should have a program that those who don’t have much money get a new car every three years. That will also help the auto industry and provide more jobs.

      • Shibamom

        Are you for real???? Do you really think this way??? My God, if the Gov’t did as you ask, we would have EVEN MORE people scamming the system and refusuing to go to work. I understand that you have five children…however, that was YOUR decision…NOT MINE!!! I should not have to fund you and your families’ life with money I MADE! I’ve made $20K a year before and I know it’s tough AND that was in the 80′s. However, not one time did I EVER consider just letting the Gov’t take care of me! I went looking for jobs and was very fortunate to get a good one that I’ve been doing for over 20 years. I know make a fairly decent salary….BUT…it took me 18 years to get to that salary. You know, people really have to stop the entitlement mentality. Just because someone has a rough time doesn’t mean that they just give up and expect everyone else to take care of them just because they worked hard to build their career! Those before us, in this Great Nation, would have rather died than ask for charity. That’s when their neighbors would come and help them. My God, today, even if you were bleeding and lying in the street, no one would help. It’s so very sad. Now, I read your post and it just made me ill especially the part about the Gov’t giving people that make 20K or less a freakin’ car every 3 years. SERIOUSLY????

        • Vigilant

          I think middle was being facetious.

          • independant thinker

            I’m sure of it as well.

        • Karolyn

          Wow! Shiba, $20,000 in the 80s was good money, and you’re complaining about that? I’m making $20,000 now, and I’m not complainin’.

          • Kinetic1

            Karolyn,
            Rent must be cheep where you live. That wouldn’t even pay for a three bedroom condo here.

          • Karolyn

            Actually, rent here is very cheap. Food is higher though because of low population. My rent is only $400 (4 br, 2 bath mobile home). I had less room up in New Jersey for $900 per month (and I’m sure that has probably gone up to $1000 (2 br, 1 bath house).

          • DaveH

            Karolyn,
            I have to say I don’t often agree with your politics, but you are very open and honest as far as I have seen. And you avoid the typical Liberal manipulative tactics for the most part.
            Kudos to you.

          • Vigilant

            I’ll add my kudos to that. Karolyn has a good heart, too. We get in her case sometimes, but she is indeed an honest broker.

      • Les

        I just know some politician is going “Why didn’t we think of that” a free new car every couple of years will make the unions continue to force their members to vote for us. – LOL

      • http://none Mike

        Just dripping Irony lol. A good way to make your point. Mike L.

      • http://?? Joe H.

        middle,
        Loved the satire!!!LOL!

    • Vigilant

      “Warheit?” (too close to the German word for “truth”).

      Indeed, the school of Goebbals would come up with some sophomoric explanation such as that. You must be the product of public so-called “education.” Why don’t you try something closer to your name?

      Why don’t you leftist ignoramuses come with a 100% tax rate for everyone, so you could sell anything less than 100% as a “tax cut.”

    • independant thinker

      David, This “agreement” did NOT cut the tax rate on the wealthy. What it does is keep the present rate in effect for two more years. I am constantly amazed by how you anti-wealth people consider keeping things the same a tax cut.

      • DaveH

        They will use whatever manipulative tactics the ignorant followers will buy.
        Could you imagine the whining that would come from the Liberals if a car dealer wanted to see their income statements before he offered them a price? Yet they have no trouble at all expecting the rich to pay a higher share of the taxes.
        I have to wonder how many of these Liberals that comment here are employed by the Government? And Overpaid?

        • Denniso

          Everyone knows this…when the taxes were cut back in ’01 and ’03 the
          legislation included and expiration date for the cuts because they were just supposed to get the economy going again after a slump. The expiration date is as much a part of the bill as the cuts themselves.
          If the cuts expire then taxes return to what they were…it takes another bill to extend the cuts,so they are still cuts.

          I know, Limbaugh has convinced you guys that the extension of cuts set to automatically expire is not tax cuts. Of course he’s a blabbing
          spin doctor, and wrong. If you extend tax cuts they are still cuts.

    • http://none Mike

      David, A long convoluted explanition of something thats really simple.Right now the tax rates are lower on everyone. If you let thoes rates expire they go back to the level they were before the cuts. Any way you cut it that is a tax increase. Go back to school and learn simple math and logic please and quit tormenting yourself trying to explain something you dont understand. Mike L.

  • Mick

    Buddy says:
    December 9, 2010 at 8:25 am
    The government doesn’t have an income problem – – it has an outgo problem.

    *********************************
    Buddy……….Very well put !!!!

    They have to stop digging in the till, just because they establish a budget is no reason to spend it all and should apply the surplus to the national debt…..

    • 45caliber

      When Eisenhower was President after WWII, Congress made a budget that was over the income by about 10%. He called all the heads of Departments together (those were to spend the money) and informed them that they could only spend 90% of the money authorized. And guess what? The budget was balanced.

      When he left office, Congress passed a law requiring all departments to spend every penny they authorized. As one said at the time, “We know what we want that money spent for and we don’t want anyone else to decide otherwise!”

  • Doug

    I like all the comments about spending cuts.
    The government is the least efficient way to run a business because they have no competition.
    I’ve written contracts for equipment and services that go to the government, and to private enterprise.
    The same equipment and services!
    The cost is roughly 4-10 times more for government. At least that’s what we consider when doing our annual budgets.
    And the government contracts are long term.
    Once you lock in, your good for ten years.
    I make a good living because of the government, but I’ve made a good living with and without all the government gifts.
    It’s called bright people with entrepreneurial ideas.
    We would do well even if government speding was eliminated.
    We would love to privatize every government service, and open it up to competition.

    • Bob Wire

      if we could get rid of gaff,payoffs and running interference, privatization could and would work.

      REAL Big “If”

    • Rick

      The reason the government pays more for the goods they purchase is that they require a myriad of redundant tests and redundant paperwork
      that has to be factored into the cost of goods. This type of bureaucratic BS does not happen in private industry to the same extent
      it does in government, with the possible exception of General Motors.

      • http://?? Joe H.

        Rick,
        The biggest reason for the high cost of goods that the government buys is their “favored bidder list”. If you are not on this list, you can not bid on contracts! So if the lowest bid you have for toilet seats is 45.00 each, and there is a company that makes equal quality seats for 15.00 each but they are not on the list, then the government pays 45.00 each!! There is no REAL competative bidding on contracts, only among the people on the list and they all have a good idea what the other will bid!

    • 45caliber

      Doug:

      The government has no business either. All they do is shuffle papers. A man some years ago commented that he filed for grants every year. What he turned in during a 3-month period kept over 100 people busy all year just handling the paper work between them.

      A business produces something. The government doesn’t.

    • DaveH

      Excellent comment, Doug. Thank you.

  • Bob Wire

    you can call it class warfare

    you can call it asking for a new deck of cards and getting rid of all the marked and dog ears cards some people enjoy playing with while they are winning.

    You can call it Liberal, DNC , Conservative GOP. That’s the ruse they use to keep us fighting among ourselves and not focusing on them!

    Bottom line, the middle class is fading fast and our consumer base is drying up in America.

    and the GOP/DNC wishes to ignore it(in spite of what they both say) and favor the most affluent with laws and creating condition that do nothing but enhance this regression of the center.

    It’s a numbers game, ~ the more people you can stand on top of, the higher your position. Until there is a labor shortage ( I see none coming) there no perceive reason or incentives to offer concession to the center.

    The “Center” being the ones to cut the tree, to fire the furnace to made the white wash, to paint the government temples and monuments to please those in places of affluence and power.

    The “Right/Left” sees no problem with this progression as there must be a bottom to support any top and the downward progression of the “center” is a slow one, clouded in complacency and uncertainly in not knowing for sure “why” things are so bad as the Right and the Left cloud the water and restrict the view.

    The “Elite and Privileged” days are numbered only by the number of “trees”.

    • 45caliber

      All revolt comes from the middle class. The poor cannot afford the equipment to revolt and are too focused on simply getting the next meal. The rich are content since they have the support of all in power.

      The US has a large middle class. But I believe those on the upper end of politics wants to eliminate that middle class so they can remain in power. And I believe that most laws are made for that one purpose.

      • Karolyn

        Isn’t it the poor who have traditionally revolted? (equipment or no equipment) And – are still revolting in other countries.

        • DaveH

          Maybe one or both of you can come up with some references for that question.

    • S.C.Murf

      Good post it rings very true.

      • Bob Wire

        Yea, and when the middle is no more, or in numbers to small to resist, we are stuck like Chuck and at the whelms of the elite and privileged.

        It would be my prefer there be a solid middle as that’s where the bulk of consumers might be found,in numbers large enough to where wealth transfer is lively and vigorous,allowing more people to be an active player in the pursuit of happiness and the on going game of wealth transfer.

  • Rick

    I have an idea for these “PROGRESSIVE” wealthy politicians. Why not
    donate 100% of your income, from whatever source, including your tax
    shelters, to the government for “spreading the wealth around”? This
    would demonstrate that you are not a hypocrite, and you truly believe
    your Socialist prattle.

    • 45caliber

      Heck, I’d even let them keep ten or fifteen thousand so they can see what the rest of us live on.

    • Karolyn

      Something like that: Zuckerberg (Facebook) has announced that he’s giving away most of his money like Buffett and Gates. There’s an AMERICAN! He had a dream, became wealthy and is sharing it with his brothers and sisters.

      • DaveH

        Zuckerberg, according to what I’ve read, Karolyn, never was much interested in big money. But for any of them, you need to dig deep and see just how big their charitable nature really is. For instance, what percentage of their wealth is actually being given away and to who? What strings are attached? If it’s after their death, how big is that? They can’t take it with them, so is that really so grand?
        As an example, Soros gives away a fair amount of money, but it is usually to organizations that are promoting the politics that he wants to promote. I would call “charity” that which helps people who through no fault of their own have suffered misfortune. But as with most english words it can mean many different things to different people.

  • Bob Wire

    don’t go there ~ it’s only a word game, ~ wealth is and always has been in transfer.

    Without this transfer, wealth would have little meaning. Leave one to sit atop a dragon horde and be unto ones self.

    That’s like TAX AND SPEND. ~ What’s the options?

    not tax and not spend? ~ and who’s guilty of that?

    or tax and not spend? ~ who’s guilty of that?

    or what we have today, not tax enough and spend too much?

    It’s may sound good, but fails to really say anything or offer an idea or concept or understanding that’s rooted rational thought.

    It’s not a complete sentence or complete idea.

    • DaveH

      Bob, you are without doubt the most obtuse commenter on this board. So I don’t know if I am answering your statement or not, but I would say the difference is that between a voluntary contract or transaction, and one that is involuntary such as most of those that Government offers. In the Free Markets we have a choice how we spend our money. With Government Spending and Taxes we are stuck with whatever the majority of Politicians and Bureaucrats say we must accept.
      I know I would turn down at least 70% of the services and taxes that the Government offers if I had a choice.

      • Bob Wire

        sure, you’d turn Government Services down until you or someone very close to you needed them. But neither of us Dave are the center of the Universe and we live in a world full of other people that have needs we might not need for some time, but at some point you will.

        And I’m not really sure of what you were addressing with “free markets & voluntary spill, Wealth Transfer? or tax & spend? There little need for printing currency if there is no wealth transfer. ~ And taxes had been in place in some form or another since man started living in tribes.

        It’s always been some process of dominion given freely or taken. Give unto Cesar what is Cesar’s.

        As for me being abstruse; write in clear full concise sentences and avoid catchy phrases, jargon and the likes. I’m neither an elitist or some sub-culture or belong to a special club and I don’t know the secret hand shake.

        You bring personal insult on yourself and not I as your words and thoughts belong to you and you only. I didn’t solicit them. I take the purgative to question fractured thought and half baked ideas that make little sense without support.

        • http://?? Joe H.

          Good comment. Uh DaveH, that is!!!

  • trodaball

    The Dems are nothing but criminal elites who are in business to deceive by claiming they are for the middle class. In fact, they do nothing but bring a larger and larger separation between themselves, the bureaucratic ruling class, and the gov’t dependent peasants begging for their crumbs. The mere cancerous existence of the anti-American Federal Reserve and the Progressives give us a lot to overcome if we’re ever to recover and re-establish freedom and a free-market economy.

    • DaveH

      I think you are right, Trodaball.

      • Bob Wire

        yea, they are much like yourself.

        • DaveH

          Are you drinking, Bob? Or something else?

  • Warrior

    Ben, thanks for sharing with us the rigors of your job. This explains the need to continue funding mental health professionals to deal with the continual moronic LSM and their cohorts in guvment — the “Progressives”.

    • Denniso

      Mr. Crystal sure has it tough,doesn’t he…I wonder if it’s as hard a job as doing manual labor for 8 or 9 dollars/hr? Does the difficulty compare to digging a ditch by hand in hard, rocky soil or poring concrete on a 100 degree day? Poor Ben Crystal,such back breaking work…watching T.V. for a living.

      He also failed to commiserate w/ some of us on here who have to wade through the swamps of poor grammar,foul language, and personal insults vomited out through cloistered keyboards somewhere in time and space, just to try to have a discussion w/ our American brothers and sisters.

      • libertytrain

        Denniso – are you having hormone probs again or did you just take another crabby pill this morn?

        • 45caliber

          He forgot his retlin.

          • Doc Sarvis

            You folks sure are obsessed with drugs.

          • libertytrain

            I don’t think a crabby pill is a drug, just a reverse vitamin :)

          • Denniso

            The word is Ritalin, and can’t you people tell that my post is a takeoff on Ben Crystal’s article, though I’m serious about his whining about his hard job…

        • http://?? Joe H.

          libertytrain,
          dennislob claims to be married so what I think is his wife took his ritalin and he took her hormone replacement!! That would explain the sobby/crabby moodswings, wouldn’t it??

          • libertytrain

            denniso also has mentioned that he/she doesn’t claim to be either sex so I’m not sure why there’s this new problem of extreme hostility. Doesn’t match the usual style of just basic disdain for us.

          • denniso

            Not a very convincing distraction, Liberty. And if you want to see hostility I suggest you read some of your buddies’ comments,like i41,ChuckB,DaveH and many more.

            And I assumed you were intelligent enough to understand what I meant some time ago about the gender question…I said it was and still is irrelevant whether I am male or female when we’re arguing about issues that affect all of us…male,female,black,white,religious or not. Can you grasp that concept or do you need more help w/ it?

          • libertytrain

            Denniso – as you know by your inference; I can’t be too bright, can I – since I don’t agree with you very often.

          • denniso

            I wouldn’t say that you’re not too bright,and people don’t have to agree w/ me to be bright. But if people utter sheer nonsense, hate speech and racist comments then I feel free to imagine them not very smart or educated.If people want to be taken seriously by anyone w/ even half a brain then they should try to sound like more than angry children.

          • libertytrain

            Yes, do remember these – your words – with each post you make – some of yours of late in particular have been no better than what you state the others make.

      • Warrior

        Dennis,
        Is someone forcing you to access this site every day? Sounds sinister.

        • Doc Sarvis

          Denniso is just using Personal Liberty. You shouldn’t have a problem with that.

          • libertytrain

            You are correct – it is Personal Liberty – but it seems to be too upsetting for him though.

          • Warrior

            Well why complain about it then? Say your peace and be done.

          • Doc Sarvis

            Complaining seems to be the subtitle to this site. Just an observation – not a complaint.

          • Karolyn

            Amen! Actually, I think that this is the only place many have where they can say whatever they want without getting into a fistfight.

          • libertytrain

            the beauty of Personal Liberty, the site, is that you all are free to post here whereas we, on the more conservative side, do not have that option available to us on many, if not most, liberal sites.

          • eddie47d

            How many liberal sites have you been on?

          • libertytrain

            stopped trying to post to them – only read them now. As you read this one, but are allowed to post -

          • Bob Wire

            “I think that this is the only place many have where they can say whatever they want without getting into a fistfight.”

            only because their arms too short

          • Claire

            We can only fight with words. And sometimes people have to “eat” their words.

      • S.C.Murf

        Denniso, please make that popping sound

        • eddie47d

          We keep hearing that ringing in your ear Murf. I think you better answer it for the echo is building up!

          • S.C.Murf

            well eddie 47 d you would know that popping sound cause it happens when you pull your head out of your ASS

          • http://?? Joe H.

            S.C. Murf,
            I probably shouldn’t encourage you, but I’m still laughing!! Almost spewed cherry coke zero all over my ‘puter!!!

          • eddie47d

            Next time pull your pants up!

          • http://?? Joe H.

            edduuuuhhh!,
            It’s not me that has his head up his anal cavity it’s you!!! YOU pull your pants up….If you can in that odd position????

      • DaveH

        If he did commiserate with any victims of those things, Dumniso, it sure wouldn’t be you. You are the main dealer of those adolescent manipulative statements on this board.

        • http://?? Joe H.

          DaveH,
          Are the lower case “d” and upper case “D” one and the same dumnisso???

  • Howard R Gray

    The secret to a better legislature (and less taxes) is to pay them nothing and require their attendance less than a month a year. Better still, do what the Isle of Mann Tynwald does meet in the open air, which precludes legislation in winter and much of the summer vacation time too. Not strictly true but that is what used to happen over there in the middle of the Irish Sea.

    However much you pay them it is never enough no amount of schemes justifying paying legislators more and more will ever work, don’t trust me, trust history. Making laws and corruption are inevitable, Lord Acton was right absolute power corrupts absolutely. Merely forgoing a tax increase is merely delaying the inevitable; inflation alone (a stealth tax) is in the wings big time. Have you noticed how much the supermarket visits cost these days? Can we really be grateful for them not putting up the taxes?

    Maybe earmarks, pork and the like will abate now there is a Tea Party in the house but the price of tea still rises. Go figure

    • 45caliber

      Back in 1973 the government froze all wages and prices. The government sent a spokesman around and our plant sent someone to listen.

      In the discussion, the government man stated that if a person was making less than a living wage, it was still possible for that person to go to work for someone else at a higher wage. In fact, he pointed out that the person could quit and then apply for his own job since he was the most qualified and could get a pay raise that way. If a business was not making a profit on something, they could submit the necessary paperwork to prove it and the government would allow a raise to at least make sure the company broke even. It was a good situation for everyone.

      Someone asked why we didn’t just keep that system. After some hem hawing, the government man stated that by freezing wages and prices, they also froze inflation. And the government depended upon inflation to increase the amount of taxes collected without having to vote to pass a tax increase. And if Congress did that, people would know what they were having to pay.

      • Vigilant

        “After some hem hawing, the government man stated that by freezing wages and prices, they also froze inflation.”

        Nixon did the wage & price freeze specifically for that purpose, to get a handle on inflation. I remember in macroeconomics learning about the “ghost curve” of inflation behind the flatlined wage/price curve. If the freeze was in for 3 years, let’s say, and the freeze was done away with, inflation would “jump up” to meet the ghost curve of where inflation would have been after 3 years anyway.

        Neither FDR nor Nixon helped the wage/price spiral by instituting socialist measures.

  • 45caliber

    When I get paid, I cannot “adjust” my pay except by borrowing. After many years I learned that borrowing should be done only on rare occasions and should be paid off as rapidly as possible.

    But to live I MUST budget. That means I cannot spend more than I take in. Personally, I believe that credit cards are the worst thing that every happened to the US since those are meant soley to encourage spending (and borrowing) for things you really don’t need. I have to sit down and determine what I must pay for out of my income and then determine what I can buy from what is left.

    No in government does this at all. Instead, they spend and then try to determine how to get more money to cover it.

    What we need to do is to eliminate all the spending we cannot afford and don’t really need anyway. For instance, education is handled primarily by local groups. States simply try to insure every school covers the same material. The feds don’t need to get involved at all – and really weren’t meant to. So close that Department. The same for HUD. Since the Dept. of Energy basically only tries to maintain what we have (so they can continue to collect the taxes from it) instead of reducing energy use or cost then we don’t need it either.

    I’m sure that there are many other departments that we don’t need. The ones we do need can be cut way back. For instance, the FDA was needed badly when it was set up. But now? The only real use we need for it is to check on things coming into this country – and they don’t want to do that since it would require them to leave their offices and travel. We could cut it back 90% and still get the aid we need. Others are the same.

    So … let’s cut the spending. And when we get it all cut, then we stop all programs that we simply do not have the money for such as “free” health care for everyone.

    And when we do get the budget balanced and our loans paid off, we don’t spend more.

    • Karolyn

      Without the FDA (even though it does such a bad job), Big Pharma would have a field day. We need certain oversight agencies because you cannot trust big business to “do the right thing.” Yes, I know FDA is pretty much in Big Pharma’s pocket, but there has to be somebody watching the henhouse. There are unscrupulous food companies and others that have to be dogged.

      • DaveH

        Karolyn,
        Please. What happens when a company’s product is contaminated? Does the Government stop that? Of course not, they can only react after the fact. No company in its right mind wants to sell contaminated food. Their company would go out of business in a hurry if they did. The punishment dealt to an errant company in the marketplace is far greater to any the Government might deal out.
        And the bureaucrats cost us extra money on top of doing very little actually to protect us. They generally have jobs for life with very little chance of firing, so why should they bother performing?

        • Vigilant

          DaveH,

          Right on the mark. I’m sure you’re aware that the USDA physically inspects only a small portion of the meat put out on supermarket counters. So much for expensive bureaucrats protecting us.

          • http://?? Joe H.

            Vigilant,
            I’m sure they inspect every curdle of ground beef produced!!! Why I’m sure they wouldn’t take a penny to look the other way!!! I’m sure!!!

          • Denniso

            And why is it that the USDA inpects only a small portion of the meat? Because the Repubs and you guys who vote for them won’t support a large enough agency to do more. You cut their budget so they are understaffed and then you complain they don’t do enough…dumb. It’s the classic repub tactic for attacking and demonizing gov’t.

    • Bob Wire

      “So … let’s cut the spending. And when we get it all cut, then we stop all programs that we simply do not have the money for such as “free” health care for everyone.”

      Well 45 there is little you offer I could disagree with ~ To live inside ones means. ~ I do the same thing. ~ a cash and carry kind of guy.

      But I would like to visit with you on the statement above.

      Yesterday , Today and Tomorrow, ~ someone somewhere will be getting “free health care” somewhere. Program, no program, no matter the emergency room, one of the most expensive kinds of health care has became a “catch all” and is overwhelmed by demand. ~ perhaps it is not the best care, as the system “in place” is required to discriminate and make life and death decisions among the many have and have not.

      Two years ago, my 58 yr old sea captain brother was sent to Corpus Cristi US Naval shipyard to take possession of a vessel and pilot it to it’s new owner. She had some tall sides on her and lashed to the pier in Naval fashion along with many other 150 ft’er, 100 ton class.

      A 20′ extension ladder was in place on the pier allowing a climbing access to the aft deck. The ladder gave-way as brother neared the top, as he jock’ed for position, he ended up falling to the pier and on top of the ladder,~ he rode it down, if you will.

      The ambulance carried him to the hospital, were he was treated and x-rays taken. ~ The Emergency room staff left him sitting in a wheel chair for some time and it got around to where my brother needed to pee.

      So he attempted to get someone attention and maybe some help but he was ignored. This went on until he had to make a scene to get the help he needed to just to pee and not soil himself.

      The x -ray showed he had not broken bones and since he was a noisy sort they called him a cab and rolled him out the door, leaving him alone to catch a cab. The cab carried him to his truck and he drove the 250 miles home to Brownsville Tx.

      He has since had three surgeries as his fall across the ladder cut ligament into in both his right leg and left shoulder into and dislocated an ankle. By the time this was done, it was weeks later and that required them to cut short and clean the torn ends and the ligaments being shortened, requiring extensive rehab and great pain to ever lengthen.

      It’s been two year and he is now just finishing his rehab. They are telling him he can go back to work as long he doesn’t lift anything over 10 pounds.

      For a Sea Captain, that’s not a reality.

      He had Longshoreman insurance but he had to fight to get it, and at one point it looked like he would have to sue his employer or sue the US NAVY to maybe get any medical coverage at all. Needless to say, you don’t sue the US Navy.

      and then too, ~ he could perhaps sue the Corpus Christi Hospital for their shoddy treatment in their brief care. Maybe my brother should have dressed better for his trip to the hospital?

      My brother “only wanted” medical care and hopes of maybe getting well, he only wants to work at what he loves to do, what he’s skilled to do.

      He don’t want to sue anyone!

      Why must there be such sad stories? WHY? ~ This makes me want to go hurt somebody.

      ~~~~~~ as far as “FREE CARE” if I’m not mistaken, many people are in arms, because it “NOT Free” and they are being required to pay.

      So let understand it for what it is, ~~ free care is available regardless ~~ but you might not like it.

      And a program is being presented and offered that takes some pressure off this Emergency Room Care that comes at a cost and is not Free.

      • S.C.Murf

        For quite some time now (long before the health care reform) there has been in place a program at hospitals in the US what is called the Halburtin Clause. Plainly stated if one mention’s this clause, that said hospital cannot turn you away. Now if you received the same professional care as a insured person I do not know. I also had an unfortunate experience, went in for ROUTINE Angioplasty (second time in ten years). The next thing I and my wife knew is that they were getting ready to ship me off viva air mail (air flight) to another hospital for emergency open heart surgery. The thing is, I was already at (supposedly) the best heart hospital in the mid-west. So I wonder what went wrong during the attempted angioplasti that kicked into gear emergency open heart surgery? I did not pursue the matter because of a good Dr. at the hospital saved my life performing the surgery the next morning. This same Dr. made the comment to my wife that I would not make (alive) the trip to Rodchester, Minn. And I did not sue anyone for this good Dr. took care of me.

  • HFlashman

    LOL..the standard GOP shill these days is to try and mischaracterize the cuts as ‘entending tax rates’. What a crock. The real rates are those pre BushII/GOP giveaway to the wealthy which destroyed the balaned budget inherited from the previous Democratic Administration. The current rates are temporary and the real rates return January 1. Thus, and extension of the temporary rtes is a tax cut.

    How’s that?

    • Warrior

      ??? – how does one arrive at the real rates? Hmmm?

    • thinking

      Thanks flash for clearing up that the democrates under Clinton balanced the budget using social sercurity funds! That taxes should be high to drive out the high income earners and that we will have the poor to create jobs and balance the budget. I have it all wrong, thinking that spending affects how much in debt we are. As inflation hits we will be better off with Democrates spending more to help the…reelection of the democrates.

      • Warrior

        Maybe 100% IS the magical number! After all, I’m positive this number would cure all societal ills.

        • Vigilant

          Yes, and all tax rates below 100% would be considered “reduced” taxes. What a hoot!

    • independant thinker

      Once more Hflashesinhispants.

    • Vigilant

      Yes Flush, we know that 100 years from now they’ll still be framing all arguments for/against “tax cuts” based on GWB’s rates. Once the libs establish Bush rates as the baseline, we’ll all know whether it was a cut or an increase.

      What a maroon!

  • FreedomFighter

    The “sinistra” believe “end justify means”, breeding evil where ever it goes.

    Low tax rates combined with constitutional, authorized spending will propel America into economic prosperity. It is very simple really, think what happened to Ca and NY when the tax rates in these states reached to burdensome levels…millionaires and billionaires can live anyplace they want, so many moved, reducing the very basis of revenue and chasing away the very people they should want in state.

    On a national level the same applies, raise taxes to levels that make America unappealing as a place to live, the very rich will, and rightly so, leave. We as Americans should want the rich of the world to see America as the place to go to, not leave from.
    Flat 15% across the board tax, fire half the IRS, big savings.

    Laus Deo
    Semper Fi

    • Doc Sarvis

      I seriously doubt that firing half of the IRS, even the higher paid half, would save enough money to keep one Interstate (say I-95) maintained for one year.

      • DaveH

        One small step for man, one giant step for mankind.

        • Denniso

          Most of us don’t like the current tax system and if we could come up w/ a fair and simple one and not have to hire people to spy on and audit and sometimes threaten or even jail us for tax violations,we would all be happy. The only way a flat tax is even close to fair is if working people under some income level are exempt or get tax credits/rebates.

    • Bob Wire

      Well,I sure don’t care for the Infernal Revenue, we’ve met. Told them that I didn’t have it! They said , Well Mr Wire, we are not a bank. I said yes, I know that, you are a leech. They said, that’s not called for. I said, well what do you call it?

      I have a cousin that works for them, ~ she was raise on the Federal Dime,a Army brat. She does know any different. She knows I don’t approve, she don’t care. ~ End of story.

      death and taxes are hard to avoid. Seems we are a running from both.

      I had a bad CPA bury me in 86, ~ what a mess. ~ Be careful who you trust with your women and money.

  • DaveH

    Will one of the Liberals on this board tell me how your Socialist Paradise is going to work?
    Who is going to do the hard thinking when we do away with the Rich people (like George Soros)? Who is going to invest in the machinery to increase our productivity? Who is going to do the hard work when everybody gets paid the same? What are you going to do about the slackers? When there is a resultant decrease in goods due to the lack of productivity, who will get those scarce goods? How much of their salary are you going to allow the workers to keep? If we all Unionize, who is going to pay all our higher salaries? Who is going to do the work we refuse to do because it isn’t in our job descriptions?

    • Denniso

      You’ve lost what litle mind you might have once had…No one is proposing a ‘socialist utopia’,and no one in the country is either. There happen to be people who want to improve the country and society,through gov’t and the private sector,and if you don’t think it could stand some improvement and it’s just fine as is,then you are really out to lunch and clueless.

      • Warrior

        You’re absolutely right, they’re proposing a “socialist hell”. Here’s a question for you. What do you get when you confiscate the “peoples” arms? Take your pick of the following answers: Cuba; North Korea; USSR; Iran; Venezuala: etc. Hey wait, those are all dictatorships! Funny how that works wouldn’t you say?

        • denniso

          And who’s talking about confiscating the ‘peoples’ arms?? And what is an arm? A machine gun? How about surface to air missiles? Dynamite,artillery,F-16′s,nuclear tipped grenades,grenade launchers??
          Or is an ‘arm’ limited by law to pistols and rifles? And by confiscation do you mean licensing regulations and maybe armor piercing bullets?
          You need some clarity in you thinking before I know what you mean.

  • Bob Wire

    I give up! Who? You?

    You can’t make rich people go away ! They can come nearer making you go away. They don’t need as much help as you seem most willing to give Dave.

    They just want your vote!

    You can make them less rich.

    You can make anyone less rich. They made me less rich.

    So why not discuss it in terms that makes some sense?

    To ask for a fair hand and a fair shot is too much?

    Are you suggesting disparity, inside trading, preferential treatment, influence peddling does not exist?

    • DaveH

      Okay, Bob, are you going to step up to the plate and tell me how Socialism is going to work in our country when it has worked nowhere else? Inquiring minds want to know.
      Or are you just going to continue to be obtuse?

      • Vigilant

        DaveH,

        You’ve seen me ask that same question a number of times and, like me, don’t expect a coherent answer from the left. The most we can ever expect is (1) a disingenuous denial that they don’t really want socialism, or (2) taking the discussion off in the weeds by changing the subject. But I suppose we can try to ask the question, if for no other reason than keeping the subject in their faces.

        • Bob Wire

          Vigilant, ~ I’d enjoy answering yours or Dave’s questions, but you need to ask one that is not baited and has an answer that can be addressed inside the space and time permitted here.

          “Okay, Bob, are you going to step up to the plate and tell me how Socialism is going to work in our country when it has worked nowhere else?”

          That was the question I’m suppose to respond to? the one presented by Dave?

          What’s the context? in what frame of reference? what facet of socialism is being refereed to? What side of the ledger are we addressing? Social or monetary? Road systems or heath care? national defense or energy policy?

          Now who’s being obtuse?

          Do you still beat your wife?

          Does your family know your are gay?

          Step up and explain to us the virtues of Christianity if it be seen so wonderful?

          Explain to us how it works!

          All questions don’t deserve answers.

          Answers has always been easier to create then good questions.

          Ask me something that have been well thought out and considered and I will gladly responded to it the very best I can.

          I know it’s hard, but please try!

          Calling me “slow” while you ask foolishly baited questions only reflect on you making you a member of a special club that appeals to only a few.

          A club that perceives it’s self as “Quick Minded” ~ since it’s you that is handing out the grade, “why not”?

      • http://?? Joe H.

        DaveH,
        come on now, you know it’s not fair to expect facts from the progressives!!!! YOU have to present facts, THEY just get to state BS!!

        • Bob Wire

          and the “facts are”????? can you narrow it down a bit so the “facts” might be discussed?

          The facts are, America is 234 years old this year and it is considered an experiment in democracy of sorts, and employs a Capitalistic monetary system of sorts. A hodgepodge of grand and noble ideas with hopes of offering as much personal liberties and the pursuit of happiness to it’s citizenry as possible.

          Today government is seen as growing out of control, as are our numbers and problems as we enter the 21st Century and the Information Age.

          Now there are some hard “facts” we must address.

      • Denniso

        It’s hard to believe that you guys are still so clueless w/ your tired old cries of ‘socialism’…every society,by definition has varying degrees of ‘socialism’. The only relevant question is how much do societies do communally,or together, and how much is left to the absolute private sector. We are ‘socialistic’ in many aspects of society,by pitching in together for a common defense,roads,sewers,police/fire protection,clean air and water,health research,education…health insurance is essentially a sort of private socialism in that you pay in a fee that is much less than what a serious health issue costs to treat,and the monetary risk is spread among many others in the collective pool in a ‘socialistic way.

        You guys are so terrified of the word ‘socialism’ that you don’t even bother to try and understand what it is you’re talking about. Are you as scared of the word ‘social’,or ‘socially’??

        Of course we didn’t talk about ‘social’ security. I imagine you want to abolish that since it sounds a lot like ‘socialism’. How about the word ‘security’? Is that another bad word?

      • Vigilant

        DaveH,

        As I said, Denniso did it. Some day they’ll have the guts to answer the question.

        • Denniso

          Do you really not grasp what I wrote? I tried to be simple enough for you and DaveH,but I guess not simple enough?

          Once again,a family,town,city,state and national gov’t always engages in some degree of what you deride as ‘socialism’. You don’t understand the definition of the word and are trying to villify what every human grouping does…work together to some degree for the good of the whole group. If someone in your family needs help or support,do you help or ignore? When people pay in to construct roads,communication links,defense,education,etc, it’s the same thing. People working toward a common good for all society. It doesn’t mean that we do everything as a group,just the things that the ‘market’ can’t or won’t do. Every 1st and 2nd world country in the world behaves like that, as do most families. Social efforts are not the evil you want to portray them as. Comprende?

          • Michael J.

            Denniso,
            Oh we get it alright, though probably well past your college years, you still audition for the debating team. Abstract reality whose premise supposses that no statement is 100% correct, and that likewise no statement is 100% incorrect may have impressed professor Sizzlebottom, but will not fly here.

            The word Socialism is just a derivative of Communism, and no amount of generalization with the intent of diluting the meaning and threat of Socialism will convince those aware of the 100,000,000 human beings exterminated by the likes of Stalin and Mao in the 20th century alone, would be a good thing.

            Socialism will never become acceptable to informed conservative, constitutionalist Americans.

          • Denniso

            No, you don’t get it. Do you advocate NO gov’t policies using taxes for things like the socialized military? Roads? Sewers and treatments?Space exploration,research on disease,police/fire protection,aid to family farms??
            Do you call those things being paid for by taxes and provided by gov’t socialism?

            Real socialism is when the gov’t owns the means of production. We don’t do that except when Reagan bailed out Chrysler and when Obama bailed GM,and then it was only partial gov’t ownership w/ the idea being to save the companies for the jobs that would otherwise be lost.

          • Denniso

            I’m waiting Michael J…

  • Anthony

    Reaganism:
    Lowering of capital gains, so the entreprenuers can create companies and hire employees – it’s called JOB CREATION for the hardcore commie bait-conversational artiste’s who have nothing better to do with their lives. IT ALSO MEANS lowering of taxes overall, so the Consumer will have more to spend, creating dump-truck-loads of sales tax revenues which the U.S. Treasury then collects, without doing nothing more than just stepping aside and allow the Reagan-machine to its work.

    Pulling money OUT OF the private sector, thru forced taxation, decreases the nation’s overall wealth. There is almost nothing the Gov’t does that the private sector cannot do, both more efficiently and less costly. TRUE FACT (Heck, even mercenaries can achieve their ends with less funding).

    ALL WEALTHY PEOPLE, thru their Financial Advisors or otherwise, WILL ALWAYS HIDE THEIR OWN WEALTH AT EVERY TAX INCREASE. THEY ALWAYS GET ADVANCE NOTICE OF IMPENDING TAX HIKES AS WELL, THEREBY NEVER SUFFERING THE CONSEQUENCES THAT THE MIDDLE and LOWER CLASSES WILL INCUR. TRUE FACT

    Therefore – all Dem-supporters actually WANT the people to suffer.
    Therefore – all Dem-supporters will never demand their own to tighten the purse strings

    TRUE FACT – OVER-SPENDING IS WHAT HAS UNDUN OUR FISCAL BALANCE SHEET
    Whether that’s by allowance of illegal aliens to collect freebies, or otherwise.

    EVENTUALLY – the other shoe will be scripted to drop in this financial terrorism (WWIII ?) being wrecked upon us, by the Money Masters – meaning the Banksters who all report back to the World Bank (i.e. The Rothschilds).

    PEOPLE – A Central Bank is the exact, specific reason for all the Nation’s and the World’s financial ills.

    The minute you erradicate the Central Bank, you cripple the largest monopoly ever devised by crooks. Without that cornerstone, the evil we see in the world will begin to dissipate slowly and over time, eventually disappear, allowing MAN to become the dominate force “over money” …. instead of humans being made “slaves of” …. money – which is exactly what we have now.

    During Reaganomics, it has been said that $22-Trillion dollars was made available to the middle and lower classes. Somehow, one gets the idea that the Banksters feel this was always THEIR money and we should be forced to give it all back – even though the same banksters never did any of the actual work to create that wealth along the way.

    The Left/Right discussion on this Site simply needs to stop.

    This has never been abuot Left or about Right … it’s about WHO HAS CONTROL OF OUR MONEY.

    ============ from the Rothschilds Timeline ==============

    “If that mischievous financial policy, which had its origin in the North American Republic, should become indurated down to a fixture, then that government will furnish its own money without cost. It will pay off debts and be without a debt. It will have all the money necessary to carry on its commerce.

    It will become prosperous beyond precedent in the history of civilized governments of the world. The brains and the wealth of all countries will go to North America. That government must be destroyed or it will destroy every monarchy on the globe.”

    ====================================================

    THE MISCHEVIOUS POLICY they speak of — is not having to borrow any money whatsoever, from ANY central bank…. ever!

    NO DEBT!

    Paying NO INTEREST on any debt that would be created, either.

    Obviously the communists who post on this board prefer to stifle and stymie the intention of the Jeffersonians, who were (and still should be) all about living up to the concern you read above, from the Rothschilds, themselves.

    Bank on it.

    • Denniso

      Where have you been for the past 20 yrs? Haven’t you heard,communism is dead???

      • http://?? Joe H.

        and China, Cuba, and venesuela are what chopped liver???

        • Denniso

          You don’t exist…

      • Michael J.

        Denniso,
        You are either being facetious, or are naive.

        This is a list of Communist organizations operating in The United States.

        All-African People’s Revolutionary Party (A-APRP)

        Alliance Marxist-Leninist (North America)

        American Indian Movement – Grand Governing Council (AIM-GGC)

        American Indian Movement – International Federation of Autonomous Chapters (AIM-IFAC)

        Barrio Union (Unión del Barrio)

        Black Radical Congress (BRC)

        Committee for a Unified Independent Party (CUIP)

        Committees of Correspondence for Democracy and Socialism (CCDS)

        Communist Party of the USA (CPUSA)

        Communist Voice Organization

        Democratic Socialists of America (DSA)

        For a Better World

        Freedom Road Socialist Organization [Fight Back] (FRSO)

        Freedom Road Socialist Organization [Freedom Road] (FRSO)

        Freedom Socialist Party (FSP)

        Green Party of the United States, mirror page, other page

        Heatwave Communist-Anarchist Federation (Heatwave CAF)

        Independent Progressive Politics Network (IPPN)

        Industrial Workers of the World (IWW)

        International Socialist Organization (ISO)

        Internationalist Group

        Internationalist Notes, other page, Los Angeles Workers Voice

        Labor Party (LP)

        Labor Standard, mirror page

        Labor’s Militant Voice, mirror page

        League for the Revolutionary Party (LRP)

        League of Revolutionaries for a New America (LRNA)

        Left Green Network

        Left Party

        Left Turn

        Maoist Internationalist Movement (MIM)

        National Black United Front (NBUF)

        New Democracy

        New Liberty Party

        New Party

        New Union Party

        News & Letters Committees

        Organizing Committee for the Program of Permanent Revolution

        Peace and Freedom Party (PFP), periodical Partisan Prairie Fire Organizing Committee (PFOC)

        Progressive Labor Party (PLP), other page

        Progressive ProAction Party

        Revolutionary Communist Party (RCP) periodical Revolutionary Worker

        Revolutionary Workers League (RWL)

        Social Democrats USA (SDUSA)

        Socialist Action

        Socialist Alternative

        Socialist Equality Party (SEP)

        Socialist Labor Party (SLP)

        Socialist Organizer

        Socialist Party USA (SPUSA)

        Socialist Workers Organization (SWO) periodical Socialist Viewpoint

        Socialist Workers’ Party (SWP) periodical Militant Solidarity, mirror page

        The Greens/Green Party USA, mirror page

        United People’s Party (La Raza Unida Party)

        United States Pacifist Party (USPP)

        Unity Organizing Committee (UOC) unofficial page

        US Marxist-Leninist Organization (USMLO) periodical Voice of Revolution

        Vermont Progressive Party

        Workers Democracy Network

        Workers International League (WIL), youth organization

        Workers Party U.S.A.

        Workers Solidarity Alliance (WSA)

        Workers World Party (WWP)

        Working Families Party (WFP)

        World Socialist Party of the United States (WSPUS)

        • Denniso

          You’re calling every party that isn’t the Repub party a communist party? Funny…the Green party is communist?
          Besides, my point is that communism as a major force and in control of much of anything is dead. Sure,there are communist parties all around the world,but they have almost no power to do anything.

  • http://com i41

    Democrats can only create overpaid government job with you taxpayers money These jackasses in government create nothing productive or usedul. Name one damn thing the beltway a$$es created that was a saleable item or useful to make money to put in the Treasury? Democraps love to create programs that don’t work, go way over budget, and produce nothing but dead reared idoits!!!

    • JJ

      They act as if the money is theirs and we are stealing from them. It’s not the governments it mine and I don’t want to pay for another lazy ass liberal to sit around and do knowthing except wait for another welfare check. I don’t want to take care of your grandmother you should be doing that yourself, besides I have my own to take care of. I don’t want to pay for you to sit around and draw unemployment for 2 yrs either.

      • Denniso

        Do you mind paying in to Haliburton’s no bid contracts in Iraq that gouged the gov’t(taxpayers)for necessities like gasoline for the war effort? Billions of dollars worth? That always seems to be OK w/ you ‘conservatives’ because it’s going to already wealthy people like Cheny…why is that? Any hypocrisy there? Maybe it’s because you and the rightwing essentially like war and destruction and any waste of taxpayer money going to that is fine.

  • newspooner

    It’s very simple: Taxes = Theft

    • Denniso

      OK genius…taxes = dues to live in one of the freest and safest countries in the world

      • chuckb

        denniso

        allan halbert’s post kind of tells it like it is when it comes to you zionist type liberals, all talk and nothing to back it up with except to throw insults. kind of like the muslims that post here.

        • denniso

          ‘Muslims who post here’?? Really, I don’t think I’ve seen a Muslim on here and I doubt you have either…

          I’m not a Zionist. Because I defend Jews against racism doesn’t mean I support all that they are doing. I think they are partly responsible for the problems in the middle east and usually treating the Palestinian people terribly. You jump to simplistic conclusions way too easily,as do many rightwingers.

  • Allan Halbert

    I like to give folks the benefit of doubt, but I’ve concluded that Progressives are basically not as smart as average people.

    They can’t comprehend that conservatives are not beholden to GOP leaders or conservative commentators, and are not dedicated to helping the rich. They can’t comprehend that conservatives have their own legitimate views primarily based on life experience.

    Conservatives believe the best success comes from individual incentive. Progressives believe success comes from “fairness”, and spend most of their energy regulating what can have or earn. They don’t want to admit being motivated by envy, and tend to not be job-creators. People wanting control over others without an understanding of what it takes for them to be successful are less respected.

    Another indicator is that regardless of results, progressives conclude that doing more of what doesn’t work is the answer. Look at the status of the U.S. in world eyes since Obama took office and began apologizing for America. Improving our image was an Obama campaign plank. Two years later, we are perceived as weaker, more confused about our values, and less trustworthy.

    Look at the economy. Instead of focusing on small business, which creates 80% of jobs, most stimulus spending went to prop up failing state governments and government jobs — another variety of class warfare. Polls show that Americans are willing to do with less services to control spending. Public servants do not want their enterprise to be reformed, and they continue growing it toward bankruptcy, expecting taxpayers to always bail them out.

    Next, progressives can’t understand that conservatives aren’t driven by racism. We don’t care what color a successful person is. We care if someone’s sense of entitlement controls and limits others, because to us it is un-American.

    Finally, I conclude that is it a waste of time arguing with Progressives. The only way they might evolve, if they do, is through life experience, starting and sustaining businesses, taking risks, earning the rewards, and assuming leadership roles where consensus and compromise have to be reached among people who legitimately disagree.

    I hate to see the conservatives here wasting their breath.

    • Denniso

      Are the ‘conservatives’ so fragile that they will topple over from exhaustion if they expend too much ‘breath’ here defending their often absurd positions?
      Poor ‘conservatives’…

      You sound smarter than your comment makes you seem,as you also make some of the same sweeping and false generalizations that most of the right does…only ‘conservatives’ start businesses and hire people and do real work? You ignore the non rightwingers here on this site who state that they own their own businesses and hire people…HFlashman and Kinetic1 both have their own business. I have had my own businesses for 40 yrs and hired people as well. Have you heard of these somewhat famous and wealthy progressives/liberals?
      Oprah Winfrey,Bill Gates,Ted Turner,Warren Buffet….?

      You sound like you should know better than to make such silly
      generalizations about people and maybe you could try to be a little more intellectually honest.

      • Denniso

        And Allan, it’s a bit funny,but many liberals/progressives andothers who are not rightwingers say exactly the same thing about most Republicans…that you’re somehow mentally deficient enough to allow for the almost universal party loyalty and the ability to listen to and love the absurd nonsense that comes from the conservative leaders like Beck,Limbaugh,Palin,Savage…

      • http://?? Joe H.

        Dennislo,
        I only have it on your word that you have a business and the same goes for flushman and boundup1! Gee wiz folks I’m the bleedin CEO of a multi-national investment company!!! Must be true as I said it, right??? don’t use what you are not prepared to PROVE in your arguments, Chump!!!

        • Denniso

          Sure, there probably are people who lie on this site about their history and career…I don’t. Simple and a fact. Believe it or not,I don’t care.

        • Michael J.

          Joe H.
          I don’t believe people that post here would embellish their life experiences or wealth just too prove a point.

          Well gotta go now, gotta get suited up for a scheduled EVA in ten clicks. You know, robotic arm maintenance.

          P.S. Hows the weather down there?

    • kenneth

      Amen! To all you say. I haven’t seen one thing that makes me believe that liberals really want to take responsibility for the condition they have put this government in. Liberals tend to have big ideas for other people with other people’s money. When they do get control and do spend other people’s money they don’t take responsibility to make sure their idea works or if it doesn’t to say so and stop it. Liberals are finger pointers and blamers. Have short memories about the mistakes they have made but never miss to point out what they see as inadequacies of others who support their arguments with real facts. Facts they don’t want to face up to. Liberals over look the mistakes of their leaders only see good which might have actually happened because of something someone else actually did. But more importantly then pointing out what they do is that they just haven’t shown that they can work with other people. Like leaders in businesses have to do. They want to force people to do what they want. Take the recent congress and the president. They are the best example of just what I am talking about. They have control for the last 4 years in the congress and two with the presidency. Are they taking responsibility for any of their decisions they have made? Have they made our country better? Are we a more cohesive country now? Are we growing our economy? There answer will be yes of course. That’s what they want to believe and that is what they want to force everyone else to believe. Yet the last election pretty much says it all. Have they changed? Liberals will say they have but yet we really haven’t seen that yet have we. So are we going to start pulling together or are we going to fight each other like the Communist would like us to do, so then the current administration can call Marshal Law so then they can tell us all how we are going to live our lives. This is what it looks like they actually want. That isn’t going to happen without a whole lot more bad happening for everyone. This is the question that liberals need to ask themselves, Do you really wanta, do you really wanta go there? Stop playing your selfish games. You are not helping anyone. Look back at history and you will see what happens. Who is going to come and rescue you when it happens. There isn’t another America, that’s us. Even if you don’t believe that is what we been doing for other countries for the last 200 years, what happens now. We need to be working together. Not against each other. We need to forgive the past and move on to the future or there won’t be any.

  • chuckb

    fenniso

    i would be willing to bet if you,flashinthecan and skineticut are truly business owners and i don’r really care if you are or not, the business is someway subsidized by the federal government. most likley all three of you are employed by the government or live off government contract.
    most people that constantly brag about what they have, usually have nothing bit a lot of hot air, that covers most liberals.
    most likely you are a retired union worker and flashman hasn’t completed reform school and kinetic is a social worker or an elementary teacher. just guessing!

    • denniso

      Thanks for the nice tone of your comment. You are probably smart enough to know there are many rich so called conservatives who make big money from gov’t contracts…Dick Cheny? Me, I’ve never had a gov’t contract in 40 yrs of being in biz,but wouldn’t mind if I had.

      We non venom spewing businessmen have only mentioned what we do or have, after being attacked by your buddies and you as welfare cases or
      lazy gov’t workers. You people can’t stand the idea that one doesn’t have to be a know nothing,under educated redneck to be in business and productive. Sorry to deflate your dream world.

      • denniso

        Oh,and ChuckB, if you’re willing to put your money where your big mouth is,then how about a $100 on my business having absolutely no support of any gov’t or any gov’t contract whatsoever? I can always use a little extra cash for lunch money and I love to put the lie to what loud mouths like to spout w/o thinking any deeper than a slug.

        $100,$200???

    • http://?? Joe H.

      chuckb,
      I don’t know about that, but he is definately a split personality!!! He is two people posting here as Denniso and denniso, Definately looks like planted people from dailykos or puff n toke!!!

      • Denniso

        We’ve been through this talk of my being a ‘plant’ before. It’s a little tiring and exists only in your fantasies.

  • chuckb

    denniso

    i’ll take your word that you are not employed by the government, probably drawing welfare.

    • denniso

      You said you’d be willing to bet. Now be a man not just talk, and take my offer of a $100 bet….We’ll find a way to give you all the proof you like that my biz has nothing to do w/ any gov’t anything. Welfare? Another $100 bet on that too? Or are you just hot air like so many rightwingers who spout and have no substance behind it? That’s my guess…hot,empty air.

  • chuckb

    denniso

    you are too anxious, if you need a 100 bucks that bad we can arrange a small loan for you, you most likely would change the name of your present or past business if a bet was made. if i remember correctly on one of your old post you claimed to be a retired janitor from a school and living on a union pension. its hard to believe with your attitude, to have been a past business person unless like most liberals you were employed by the gov. or state. anyway, it must have been an awfully strange business.

    • Denniso

      Like most rightwingers who pretend to support working people,you’ve just disparaged men and women who do real and important work all through society. I don’t need your money,but i’m making the point that you’re full of it and spew lies and myths as naturally as a snake slithers. I work and have started and run 4 businesses…I don’t sit around like many here w/ nothing better to do than blab and spout lies,myths and nonsense.

      • http://?? Joe H.

        atch it chuckb, you’ll hear your door bell ringing. DING DONG, AVON CALLING!!!!!

  • chuckb

    denniso

    when i comment on this site,i don’t tell lies and i don’t call people names unless they start it, you get off base in your name calling and i try to ignore it. first off when i made the remark “i would bet on it,” that was only a figure of speech, i’m, not that stupid to be making bets on such a trivial matter, who cares what you do or did for a living. we look at things differently, you expect more from the government than i do and that’s the way most liberals think. i will call you on some of your remarks if it seems wrong to me. your name calling is very cowardly, if we were facing each other in person i doubt if you would use that kind of language. if you can’t take a little argument over politics i would suggest you find something else to do.

    • Denniso

      I might suggest you look back at comments you’ve made to me if you want to complain about the tone here. You malign people as ‘janitors’,
      ‘on welfare’,'subsidized by gov’t', and then you don’t like being called on it. I don’t ‘expect more from gov’t as I’ve never taken a thing from gov’t…no unemployment,no contracts,no subsidies. I worked my way through college through 5 yrs and had some gov’t backed loans which I paid off entirely.

      I recognize that there are less fortunate people,ususlly through no fault of their own,who need more help than others and I and other liberals/progressives are willing to allow the gov’t to use some of our tax money to help those people and to try and work for a better society.

      I’ll make you a deal though…don’t call me names and I’ll return the favor. From the first day about a yr ago when I posted my first comment on this site,I have been personally attacked and maligned by most of the rightwingers. I don’t believe in total pacifism and will retaliate when personally attacked or demonized. I love good debate and exchange of ideas but if people use hate and racism against me or others I will fight that as well. If people are civil and honest then I’ll be civil in return. Deal?

      • http://?? Joe H.

        Dennislo,
        I don’t like to call anyone a liar, but when I came on here about a year and 4 months ago, you and eyes called ME names first off and I just gave back what you gave me!!! I will continue as I warned you then to stop and you didn’t!! You are a hypocritical liar!!!

        • Denniso

          Also JoeH, I wasn’t talking to you. I’m trying to get past the name calling w/Chuckb and you’re comment is irrelevant.

  • chuckb

    i didn’t malign anyone for being a janitor, that’s a job we need and i see nothing degrading about it. i agree with your contention about debating without attack. we all can’t agree on everything and that’s normal, using derogatory language is something we have to control. the only thing that upsets me more than anything is when people start using the term racist. i don’t dislike any race. i respect people for what they are not who they are. i am against multiculturalism in our society
    and have strong feelings about it, you probably have a different view and that’s your privilege, however, that doesn’t make me a racist. i refer to the communist jews, that doesn’t mean i hate all jews. i have a few jewish friends and have had the pleasure of meeting and having dinner with the education minister of israel. we agreed on some of these same things, israel has some of these same problems.
    the muslims are another side of the coin for me, i draw the line on islam and will do whatever i can to stop the foot hold it is making in this country. i will be happy to argue politics without the derogatory name calling. you have a deal.

  • chuckb

    joe h

    you may be right, maybe this is two different people i’m conversing with.

    • Denniso

      I can see that Joe doesn’t care to argue w/o calling me names. Don’t worry Joe, I’ll be ignoring you.
      Chuckb…I have more than one computer and 2 different service providers and I didn’t capitalize the ‘D’ for one of the sign ins.I’m am one person.

      ‘Eyes’ was one of the more civil people on the site and Joe is not being honest about her.

      Joe, you can shout insults all you want and waste your time,but you don’t scare me off w/ that childish tactic. Why don’t you try cleaning up your act?

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