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Gay Marriage Ban Back On Court Agenda In California

January 18, 2010 by  

Gay marriage ban back on court agenda in California A U.S. District Court in San Francisco has begun hearing a high-profile case in which two gay couples are arguing that the state’s ban on same-sex marriage, known as Proposition 8, is unconstitutional in that it denies them equal protection under the law.

According to legal analysts, Perry v. Schwarzenegger is likely to be fought all the way to the Supreme Court, and its outcome will define the issue of homosexual marriage for years to come, much like Roe vs. Wade settled abortion rights and Brown vs. Board of Education desegregated the nation’s schools.

The suit is supported by the American Foundation for Equal Rights, whose president Chad Griffin said that, contrary to the claims put forward by detractors of same-sex marriage, granting such basic rights would strengthen the fabric of society and affirm the institution of marriage, according to CNN.

"This is one of the threshold civil rights issues of our generation," Griffin said, quoted by the news provider. "Justice is on our side and we’re about to reclaim it."

However, opponents, such as Family Research Council president Tony Perkins, have been quick to point out that efforts to legalize gay marriage have been repeatedly thwarted at the ballot box, most recently when Proposition 8 was upheld by California residents during the 2008 general election.

"The marriage laws of all 50 states would be endangered should this lawsuit succeed," Perkins warned yesterday.

He added, "The plaintiffs are really asking for a wholesale recasting and redefinition of this vital human institution that has been the foundation of civilization’s progress for millennia."
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  • Dr. smith

    didn’t Californians’ vote on this? DAMN the people, We the gay radical activists, want to normalize our perversions so we feeeeel gooood…, who cares if it’s against Christians’ law and an abombination in the Lord’s eyes! Those civil, law abiding Christians are Haters – the new leftists’ label if you disagree with them!

    Damn the Will of the people, damn society, we the gay couples demand this! We, the gays, will get this or we will ACT UP!!

    Just like the spoiled rotten children they are.

    • shadow_man

      You consider yourself a christian? What you are doing is judging. That’s a no no if you are religious. But of course, like all hypocrites, this doesn’t apply to you does it? As for your “will of the people” argument, if civil rights were always left up to the will of the people, interracial marriage would still be outlawed, and racial segregation would still exist. And before you tell me, “it’s not the same thing,” it’s very similar. Bigotry is bigotry. You are discriminating someone based on something they can’t change. Just like you can’t change your skin color, you can’t change whom you are attracted to.

      • William Bush

        He may be a little bigoted, but he does have a point. When you try to legislate morality you are always walking on somebodies toes. Legislating morality is always a tricky issue because of this. But, banning gay marriage does not prohibit gay couples from spending the rest of their lives together, being able to go to any super market they please, theater, hold a job, or what have you. Marriage is a religious institution and it is unconstitutional for the federal government to impose on religious institution.

        We keep hearing about tolerance, but lately it’s been the minorities that have been intolerant of the majority. NOT the other way around, so your civil rights claim doesn’t apply here. No one is imposing on anyone’s civil rights here, but the minority are trying to impose on our religious rights.

        • Anon

          Uhh… Sorry buddy, but you are wrong there. Marriage is a civil institution, not a religious one, though priests can and do perform marriages.

          If marriage was a Christian institution, how come Jewish people can get married? Hindus? Buddhists? Atheists?

        • shadow_man

          Here is the meaning of the word bigot …

          big·ot – (big’?t) – n. One who is strongly partial to one’s own group, religion, race, or politics and is intolerant of those who differ.

          Now, listen carefully so you can learn something new today … The difference is … most gays and straights that support gays could care less what religion you practice as long as your religious preferences and views do not spill over and influence law. Basically, you can worship, who, what or where you may as long as you are respectful of those who may believe differently than your self which would include those who choose not to embrace any faith at all. That is tolerance, not bigotry.

          The difference is … most gays and straights that support gays could care less what race you are. Makes no never mind. No race is superior to another. We are all just human, trying to make our way in this world. That is tolerance, not bigotry.

          The difference is … most gays and straights that support gays could care less what political leanings you have unless your politics work toward removing the rights of any minority group. By doing so you actively deny these Americans the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. In essence, you are violating our constitution.

          • CLF

            By the same token I don’t care what perversions people choose to practace. Those will be answered for when the time comes. But the gays what to bring there perversions into the public square and insist that we approve of there activity. They are far more biggoted that the opposition. And as usual on the left the responce is if you can’t defend you position attack the opposition. If I don’t agree with this behavior there is somthing wrong with me? Get real There is nothing natural about the homosexual act.

          • shadow_man

            CLF: The problem is with your facts. By definition, homosexuality is natural, as it occurs in the animal kingdom among thousands of species. Whether or not something is natural though, doesn’t prove it right or wrong. Second, you say it’s a behavior. It seems you don’t know the difference between sex and sexual orientation. Third, you say it’s a perversion, yet fail to prove it’s wrong. Give me one good reason why it’s wrong that i can’t refute easily, and you’ll have a case.

      • Joe

        It is an error to say that it is a no no to judge if one is a Christian. If one were to investigate that point in full by real, open minded Bible study, one would discover that it is not the act of judgement that is condemned but the manner in which one judges. That same Bible says “Judge righteous judgement” and it does in fact condemn homosexuality. That is not going to change no matter what even the United States Supreme court says. Dr. Smiths problem is that he is tired of having redicoulous, insane social demands for the acceptence of perversion shoved down the throat of his country and it’s children. I happen to agree with him. That does not mean I hate any individual. It means I prefer living in a sane society to living in an insane society. Then again, as a Christian, I recognize that the whole world is in sin and I thank the Lord for the way out he has provided. It keeps me sane.

        • shadow_man

          Show me one line in the Bible that condemns homosexuality, and i’ll gladly prove you wrong.

      • Gordon

        Sorry Mr. Shadow man but faulty logic is applied to the claim that it is a no-no to “judge”. Often defenders of homosexuality cite Matt. 7:1, while ignoring it’s true meaning. Using your logic, I can go have sex with anyone I please because the Bible tells us to “love” our neighbor. But that explanation ignores the fact that not only are there different degrees and types of “love” all translated into the commonly used word “love”, but also that many Biblical passages exist telling us it is not acceptable. The same is true with judging. The word “judgment” you reference in Matthew comes from the Greek word “Krino” meaning to condemn or pass sentence upon another as a judge would do. Telling someone he is going to hell is the kind of “judgment” that is a no-no. However, other verses such as 1 Jn. 4:1, Rom 16:17. Phil. 3:17, Matt. 7:16, 2 Thess. 3:14-15, 2 Tim. 14-15, etc. all refer to a different kind of judgment referred to as “Anakrino”. That is a form of judgment meaning to make decision on the basis of information, study, examination or discernment between predetermined standards of right and wrong. This form of “judgment” is typical of a jury. Not only are we told to do this, as seen in some of the cited references, but we will be held accountable if we do not. So stop trying to intimidate people with your loose interpretation of words.

        • shadow_man

          Actually, this shows many of the contradictions in the man-made Bible. But Jesus explicitly said do not judge others. It’s not a problem of bad interpretations, it is a problem of a poorly man-made book with many faults. Second, you are a hypocrite, which JEsus also clearly stated he hated, because you are spreading hate and bigotry, against your God’s words.

        • shadow_man

          Again you keep saying it’s a “sin” but fail to provide me the passages. Passages that i’ll easily prove you wrong on. There’s no need for intimidation, there’s need to end ignorance and bigotry.

      • http://Yahoo.com Wendy

        This is not a question of bigotry. Christians have a way of life that we choose to follow. Our Father has certain rules/laws that we can follow or not. That is up to us. If YOUR father doesn’t inforce his rules, then there is no diciplin, you don’t know consequences. OUR FATHER lays out his rules clearly and does dole out punishment. You can read MY FATHER’s rules. It is hard to follow MY FATHER’S rules, but I try because I know his consequences. There is no grey area there, his rules are definate and I believe him. My very close relative chooses not to follow HER FATHER’S rules. I don’t hate this relative, but I worry for her soul because I do love the relative. There is no bigotry except for what comes from you. You have a choice, HE gives us choice. You have made yours.

        • shadow_man

          The problem is, you are free to believe/hate all you want. This is a free country. But when you involve your church in the political process and put referendums to take away a groups rights, that is not only hate, but that my friend, is bigotry.

      • Tasha

        It is the Christian duty to be able to determine the difference of what is good and evil and calling it good or evil. This is not judging the person, but the person’s actions. Just because a person does something evil does not necessarily make that person an evil person. That is where God’s judgment comes in.

        Too many people in the world now have thrown away morals and decided that whatever they want to do is moral, whether or not it hurts society or people in that society. They think that just because they aren’t killing anyone that it isn’t harming others, but it is. They think that each person should be able to decide what is moral and that society has no right to set any moral standards.

        A society without moral standards is not a society, but a large group of people in chaos.

        Such as the majority of Americans have set a moral standard that murder is immoral. Whereas in other societies it is perfectly acceptable to do honor killings.

        As far as I’m concerned, homosexuals have every right to practice those abnormal acts. But, when they threaten to change a major moral of our Society against the majority’s will, then I have to stand against it.

        Especially when a small group of people think they have the right to change the very nature of humans by using the courts to try to make us accept something that is perverted as normal.

        Homosexuals do not have the right to ursurp the civil rights of society and everyone in it, to determine that marriage is between a woman and a man.

        The only way this would be a personal civil rights issue would be if Society tried to impose marriage on everyone.

        Hopefully, the Supreme Court will rule on the side of the rights of this society to set moral standards according to the will of the majority.

        • shadow_man

          Tasha: The main problem is, your side can never say how gay marriage affects your straight marriage or “destroys the fabric of society” That’s why your side will inevitably lose.

      • CLF

        Come out of the shadows man. If you had any knowledge of the word you would know what an misinfoemed statement that is. We as Christians are called to weigh all words and actions of men aginst the word. The Bible says that the homosexual act is an abomination before God. Therefore it is not the belever being judgemental but upholding God’s judgement. The scripture is in the third chapter of Liviticus, look it up. If beleavers were to say that gays are unforgivable that would be judgement. But remember forgivness comes with a prerequeset of repentance and a willingness to turn away from the sin. Then the reconcillation with God can begin.

        • shadow_man

          Let me repost the Leviticus interpretation by biblical scholars and historians again:

          Leviticus 18:22:
          “You shall not lie with a male as those who lie with a female; it is an abomination.”

          Leviticus 20:13:
          “If a man lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination and they shall surely be put to death.”

          Both of these verses refer to heterosexuals who participated in fertility rituals in order to guarantee good crops and healthy flocks, not homosexuals, there is absolutely no mention of sexual orientation or homosexuality. Also, the word abomination was used for anything that was considered to be religiously unclean or dealing with any type idol worship.

          The Hebrew word “toevah” was used in Leviticus 18:22 and Leviticus 20:13. “Toevah” has been translated in our Bibles as “abomination” or “detestable”. The “toevah” was used throughout the Old Testament for activity involving ethnic contamination and religious idolatry. “Toevah” refers to things that were ritually unclean – like eating pork.

          It is significant that another Hebrew word, “zimah,” also translated “abomination,” which means intrinsic evil or evil by its very nature, was not used in Leviticus 18:22, or Leviticus 20:13.

          It is also significant that female homosexual relationships are not mentioned in the old testament. That’s because they aren’t talking about sexual orientation, they are talking about idolatrous practices.

          See, if you want to make a point, disprove my posts. You just keep saying it’s an abomination when i clearly showed that to be untrue. God created homosexuals. God loves homosexuals. It is you that have a problem with God’s creatures, and frankly, as a cheap shot, spelling.

          • Gary

            The actual words read: 18:22 Do not lie with a man as one lies with a women; that is detestable.

            20:13 If a man lies with a man as one lies with a women, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death : thier blood will be on thier own heads

      • Gary

        Read Leviticus 18:22

    • http://Don'thaveone Sally

      They should go back in the CLOSET!!!

      • shadow_man

        I will show you why trolling fails on this subject.

        For those of you that don’t know what a troll is, they basically are posters that take a side on any sensitive topic (religion, sexuality, etc) and post to rile up and anger other posters for their own satisfaction and fun. They usually dance around a central idea while ignoring all evidence (since their primary motive is to incite anger, not prove anything). Other troll behavior includes twisting your words out of context, name-calling, or doing anything that may get a rise out of you.

        The best way to own a troll is to get under their skin or ignore them. When a troll realizes he can’t incite anger in people and or get a rise out of them, it irks him. They keep trying, but its fun watching them in desperation as they throw everything at you trying to get any kind of rise. They lose even more, because for each troll, it gives the pro gay marriage side the chance to spread facts and information about homosexuality, to get rid of ignorance. It’s a win/win situation for us.

        Remember, trolls can’t win unless they incite anger. Merely getting responses is not a successful troll, since anyone can do that. What makes trolling unique is the ability to incite anger, and without doing that, they become useless. So to all posters here, do prove them wrong with facts, but do not let them incite anger.

        • CLF

          tipicle if you can’t defend your position attact youe opponit!

          • shadow_man

            CRC: I’ll show you why trolling doesn’t work on this subject.

            For those of you that don’t know what a troll is, they basically are posters that take a side on any sensitive topic (religion, sexuality, etc) and post to rile up and anger other posters for their own satisfaction and fun. They usually dance around a central idea while ignoring all evidence (since their primary motive is to incite anger, not prove anything). Other troll behavior includes twisting your words out of context, name-calling, or doing anything that may get a rise out of you.

            The best way to own a troll is to get under their skin or ignore them. When a troll realizes he can’t incite anger in people and or get a rise out of them, it irks him. They keep trying, but its fun watching them in desperation as they throw everything at you trying to get any kind of rise. They lose even more, because for each troll, it gives the pro gay marriage side the chance to spread facts and information about homosexuality, to get rid of ignorance. It’s a win/win situation for us.

            Remember, trolls can’t win unless they incite anger. Merely getting responses is not a successful troll, since anyone can do that. What makes trolling unique is the ability to incite anger, and without doing that, they become useless. So to all posters here, do prove them wrong with facts, but do not let them incite anger.

        • shadow_man

          CLF: Actually, most religious people would disagree with you. Judging is a sin. I think it is you who is trying to find a cop-out/distraction, because the fact of the matter is, you can’t prove homosexuality/gay marriage is wrong.

    • http://Don'thaveone Sally

      They should go back in the CLOSET!!!

      • http://Don'thaveone Sally

        Sory, I didn’t get finished. If the gays would benefit financially from getting married I could maybe understand it. Everything else has fallen apart – so why not marriage – couples living together to try out marriage – Besides being Gods covenant, marriage is to create a family enviornment to have children and care for those children. The only benefit that I can see is that they can put their partner on their medical insurance where they work. All other aspects, they are better off not getting married – they certainly get a break on their federal income taxes. Remember Sodom and Ghommoreah (spelling) We are next!!!!!

        • shadow_man

          Another common misinterpretation:

          The Sodom Story – Genesis 19:1-29
          Homophobic Viewpoint: “Sodom was destroyed because of homosexuality.”
          Scriptural Viewpoint: Sodom was a lush beautiful region of land whose inhabitants had known the goodness of God. Despite their exposure to, experience with, and witness of the one true loving Creator, the people of Sodom had rejected a relationship with God, and turned to numerous types of idolatry. When God’s messengers were sent to the city, the men of Sodom responded by threatening the ultimate act of violent abuse, murder, disrespect and humiliation. They were going to RAPE God’s representatives.

          All other Old and New Testament references to Sodom involved the sins of idolatry, inhospitality, indifference toward the poor and the rejection of God’s messengers. There are no references to same sex acts or homosexuality.

          • Tasha

            Maybe a few people think that Sodom was destroyed because of homosexuality. I’ve never heard of that before, but if someone can think of it, then it probably has happened.

            Most people know Sodom was destroyed because of their total lack of morals and the many imoral acts they comitted thus seperating themselves from God to the point where God no longer knew them.

            People aren’t afraid of homosexuals. They are afraid of their abnormal actions and their destructive effects on society.

            So it would be more accurate to call those that are against gay marriage abnormalphobes and those that are for gay marriage normalphobes.

          • shadow_man

            So how exactly does gay marriage destroy society? Lol, your side sounds like a broken record with no logic or facts. You keep saying, it hurts marriage, but can never explain why. You keep saying, it destroys society, but can never explain why. You keep saying, it’s wrong, but can never explain why.

    • Doc Sarvis

      No H8

  • Pat R

    If I were the Judge hearing this case; I would have to say NO!
    To condone the practice of homosexuality makes you guilty of doing it yourself! (My Bible tells me so).
    There is no way homosexuals will ever walk “those Streets of Gold”.
    Having their own churches does not change the fact that Jesus said it was an abomination.

    • shadow_man

      Homosexuality is not a sin in the Bible. The Bible is constantly being taken out of context to support anti-gay views. Any educated Christian would know that. Scholars who have studied the Bible in context of the times and in relation to other passages have shown those passages (Leviticus, Corinthians, Romans, etc) have nothing to do with homosexuality. These passages often cherry-picked while ignoring the rest of the Bible. The sins theses passages are referring to are idolatry, Greek temple sex worship, prostitution, pederasty with teen boys, and rape, not homosexuality or two loving consenting adults.

      (Change *** to www)
      ***.soulfoodministry.org/docs/English/NotASin.htm
      ***.jesus21.com/content/sex/bible_homosexuality_print.html
      ***.christchapel.com/romans_inter.html
      ***.stjohnsmcc.org/new/BibleAbuse/BiblicalReferences.php
      ***.gaychristian101.com/

      • William Bush

        If you actually pay attention to Jewish law, upon which the Bible was founded, you’ll see that yes it is a sin.
        Again, no civil rights are being imposed upon here. Marriage is a privilege, not a right.

        • shadow_man

          Once again, provide me a passage that say’s it’s a sin, and i’ll gladly refute you :)

        • Joe

          “Marriage is a privilege, not a right.”
          Actually, according to Loving v. Virginia:

          “The freedom to marry has long been recognized as one of the vital personal rights essential to the orderly pursuit of happiness by free men.

          Marriage is one of the ‘basic civil rights of man,’ fundamental to our very existence and survival. “

      • Joe

        Anybody who can read those passages you mentioned and conclude that they have nothing to do with homosexuality must have a lot of help in order to avoid real thinking. The conclusions of those passages are unavoidable to any one with normal thinking capacity. It makes no difference how you denie that, how often you denie that, how much money you spend denying that, how many gorups or organizations deny that and even if the United States Supreme court chooses to blatantely denie that, it will still say what it says to any one with the honesty to hear it. For crying out lout, next think you know you’ll be saying that the sun has nothing to do with daylight.

        • shadow_man

          See, the problem is, you pull out lines out of context while ignoring the surrounding text and the historical times. Of both interpretations,

          -One side (anti-gay) cherry-picks lines, takes them out of context, and just says it’s wrong with no evidence.
          They even added the word “homosexual,” a word that wasn’t even used this way till the 1800′s.
          -The other side actually looks at and relates the historical times, provides plenty of evidence using the Bible itself, looks at the Bible as a whole, relates the context to other lines and passages, interprets them properly, doesn’t distort their meaning, translates the Greek words properly and sees how they are used in various locations of the Bible to get a clear definition, and provides sufficient evidence.

          It’s easy to see why the latter wins out.

          • CLF

            This is exactly what you have done with you don’t judge comment. It dosen’t get ant further out of context.

          • shadow_man

            CLF: Then prove me wrong :)

      • http://Don'thaveone Sally

        Shadowman – I can see why you stay in the shadow’s however, rhis is just one reference – There are many many more in the bible – Under Levitdicus (The laws handed down by God) Chapter 18, 22 “You shall not lie with a male as with a women. It is an abomination.” then verse 29 For whoever commits any of these abominations, the persons who commit them shall be cut off from among their people.” Lev 20 verse 13″If a man lies with a male as he lies with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination. They shall surely be put to death. Their blood shall be upon them.”

        • Anon

          Yeah. And Leviticus also states that if a woman is a virgin when she is raped, she should be forced to marry her rapist.

          And that, if a woman become widowed without having produced an heir, she must sleep with each of her husbands brothers until she becomes pregant.

          It also states that if a children swears at their parents, they should be stoned to death.

          See us putting any of THOSE Biblical commandments into law any time soon?

          • CLF

            We all fall short in many ways but to choose continued sin over a relationship with God is a poor choice. God gave us all freedom of choice. Remember, the choices we make come with consiquences. I choose to serve God not my “little brain”.

            The jewish law brought down from the mountain by Moses was given by God so that we would know who he is and how he would have us behave. He also knew that in our sinful state that we could never live up to it. However our inability to do so dosen’t justify bad behavior. THESE PEOPLE NEED TO REPENT OR SUFFER THE CONSEQUENCES. I love the people but I HATE THE SIN TAHT BINDS THEM.

          • shadow_man

            CLF: The problem is, i’ve proven homosexuality is not a sin already. It is your task to disprove me now :)

        • shadow_man

          Leviticus 18:22:
          “You shall not lie with a male as those who lie with a female; it is an abomination.”

          Leviticus 20:13:
          “If a man lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination and they shall surely be put to death.”

          Both of these verses refer to heterosexuals who participated in fertility rituals in order to guarantee good crops and healthy flocks, not homosexuals, there is absolutely no mention of sexual orientation or homosexuality. Also, the word abomination was used for anything that was considered to be religiously unclean or dealing with any type idol worship.

          The Hebrew word “toevah” was used in Leviticus 18:22 and Leviticus 20:13. “Toevah” has been translated in our Bibles as “abomination” or “detestable”. The “toevah” was used throughout the Old Testament for activity involving ethnic contamination and religious idolatry. “Toevah” refers to things that were ritually unclean – like eating pork.

          It is significant that another Hebrew word, “zimah,” also translated “abomination,” which means intrinsic evil or evil by its very nature, was not used in Leviticus 18:22, or Leviticus 20:13.

          It is also significant that female homosexual relationships are not mentioned in the old testament. That’s because they aren’t talking about sexual orientation, they are talking about idolatrous practices.

          • CLF

            The problem is that you seem to think that choosing you orentation is OK. God created you as you are you don’t get to pick and choose. There is a natural order to things and homosexuality is not a part of it. Wake up! This life is the short run. Your actions on this earth will determine you place in eterinity. Choose carefully!

          • shadow_man

            CLF: I’ve already proven orientation is not a choice :)

            (Change *** to www)
            ***-news.uchicago.edu/releases/03/differential-brain-activation.pdf
            ***.newscientist.com/channel/sex/dn14146-gay-brains-structured-like-those-of-the-opposite-sex.html
            Gay, Straight Men’s Brain Responses Differ
            ***.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,155990,00.html
            ***.livescience.com/health/060224_gay_genes.html
            ***.springerlink.com/content/w27453600k586276/

            There is overwhelming scientific evidence that homosexuality is not a choice. Sexual orientation is generally a biological trait that is determined pre-natally, although there is no one certain thing that explains all of the cases. “Nurture” may have some effect, but for the most part it is biological.

            Disagree? Then prove me wrong :D

        • shadow_man

          Also, since you mentioned Leviticus, i want to ask you a few questions, and i want them answered immediately :)

          1. When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord – Lev.1:9. The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?

          2. I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?

          3. I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanliness – Lev.15:19- 24. The problem is, how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.

          4. Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can’t I own Canadians?

          5. I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath.. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself?

          6. A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination – Lev. 11:10, it is a lesser abomination than murder. I don’t agree. Can you settle this?

          7. Lev. 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here?

          8. Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev. 19:27. How should they die?

          9. I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?

          10. My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev. 19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? – Lev.24:10-16. Couldn’t we just burn them to death at a private family affair like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)

  • Brian N Smith

    don`t worry about GAY MARRIAGE BECAUSE THAT`S WHY THE PRESIDENT OF IRAN WILL LAUNCH A NUCLEAR ATTACK AGAINST THE USA AND THE JEWS BECAUSE OF THE GAY RIGHTS BECAUSE IT GOES AGAINST THEIR VERSION OF THE NEW WORLD ORDER IN WHICH IS ISLAM!

  • Tim

    Actually makes me wonder what country I am in, as this is the United States of America, and trying to make this gay crap a civil rights issue is as insane as the insanity of homosexuality in the first case….We all have the same rights in this country, gay or not, and a right to gay marriage is not an unequal issue, it is an abomination of brain cells in those who think they will gain anything in this attempt to circumvent, or rewrite law…on top of that to put this issue in court is a slap in the face to all the people of California, as well as the country who voted against this insane behavior…

    • shadow_man

      You might want to open a science book, because you clearly do not have any understanding of what sexual orientation is. Homosexuality is not a choice or a “lifestyle”. Just like you don’t choose the color of your skin, you cannot choose whom you are sexually attracted to. If you can, sorry, but you are not heterosexual, you are bi-sexual. Virtually all major psychological and medical experts agree that sexual orientation is NOT a choice. Most gay people will tell you its not a choice. Common sense will tell you its not a choice. While science is relatively new to studying homosexuality, studies tend to indicate that its biological.

      (Change *** to www)
      ***-news.uchicago.edu/releases/03/differential-brain-activation.pdf
      ***.newscientist.com/channel/sex/dn14146-gay-brains-structured-like-those-of-the-opposite-sex.html
      Gay, Straight Men’s Brain Responses Differ
      ***.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,155990,00.html
      ***.livescience.com/health/060224_gay_genes.html
      ***.springerlink.com/content/w27453600k586276/

      There is overwhelming scientific evidence that homosexuality is not a choice. Sexual orientation is generally a biological trait that is determined pre-natally, although there is no one certain thing that explains all of the cases. “Nurture” may have some effect, but for the most part it is biological.

      And it should also be noted that:
      “It is worth noting that many medical and scientific organisations do believe it is impossible to change a person’s sexual orientation and this is displayed in a statement by American Academy of Pediatrics, American Counseling Association, American Association of School Administrators, American Federation of Teachers, American Psychiatric Association, American Psychological Association, American School Health Association, Interfaith Alliance Foundation, National Association of School Psychologists, National Association of Social Workers, and National Education Association.”

      • William Bush

        They also say that violence is a predisposition. Does that mean that murderers should be allowed to do what they do?
        The predisposition argument is just an excuse to get out of taking responsibility for your actions. Sure they may not have a choice on who they are attracted to, but they do have a choice in what they do about it.
        Some people are predisposed to be alcoholics, that doesn’t mean they should let themselves head down to the local bar every night.

        • Anon

          Murderers hurt people. So do alcoholics. Being gay doesn’t.

          BIG difference.

        • shadow_man

          You want to know how i know you’re a bigot? When your arguments are like this, trying anything and bringing everything irrelevant in your argument to cover up your bigotry. In case it’s not obvious to you, murderers hurt other people, gay marriage and homosexuality harms nobody. What you gonna say next, that gay marriage is like punk rock music and is of the devil?

      • Joe

        Frankly, I couldn’t give a rip less what some book says. Funny how books are always the final authority so long as the book mentioned is not the Bible. The fact is that a human being has a consciousness that gives us the ability of self determination. We do as we choose. Period. There are all kinds of justifications and rationalizations in our minds for what we do and how, but the basic fact is, we do as we choose. Unless of course we are somehow less than human. Humans are the only species on the planet that has a consciousness that allows self-determincation. Anything less than determining for ones self what one will do and what one will not do is less than human. NOTE: I am not saying that to commit crime, insult or perversion is less than human. I am saying that good or evil, the things that men do are the things that men DECIDE to do. If that is not so, then men are no better than toads (of which I am sure the adamant femenist among us would agree)

        • shadow_man

          Actually i think men are worse than the animals in our planet. The animals are not the ones ruining our planet and environment, or discriminating against others.

      • http://Don'thaveone Sally

        Wrong again Shawdow Man. This is only for the Gay people to condone their abomination!!!!. Since all people on this earth came from Noah and his sons after the flood, and same sex people having sex with each other is an abomination in Gods eye, why in the blue blazes would God who made up our whole beeing, made it scientifically that people are Gay not by choice. Beleave me you are gay by choice!!!!! Isn’t it funny that there are no gay Muslims!!!!

        • Curtis S

          Sally… all people on earth came from Noah? Tell me, was Noah white or black? What boat did the Chinese and Japanese step off? During the great flood that covered ALL of the earth, did the North American Indians just paddle their canoes for 40 days and 40 nights?
          Sally with people like you spewing venom and hate, why would someone CHOOSE to be gay? And yes Sally, it’s absolutely hilarious that there are no gay Muslims. Then again, if that’s true and there are no gay Muslims, maybe god likes them better? Hmmm.

        • shadow_man

          It’s funny you fail to disprove a single one of my links. Typical of the anti-gay side. That’s why your side will inevitably lose in the end, because you rely on fear, ignorance, half-truths, scare-tactics, and twisting truths, which people will eventually see through. Oh, and good job misinterpreting your Bible. Abomination translated in Leviticus had nothing to do with homosexuality. They were talking about fertility rituals and worship of idols which were common during that time period. Strike 2 for you =)

      • Gordon

        If you seek “Scientific evidence” Mr. Shadow man, may I suggest you conduct a thorough reading of Dr. Robert Spitzer’s May 2001 research report. In case you don’t remember who he is, he is the first to stand up in the 1973 APA meeting declaring homosexuality a “genetic defect” for which there was no choice by the individual affected nor cure by treatment. Let me summarize his latest research findings after working with and interviewing over 200 individuals who had “transformed” from a homosexual lifestyle. 1) All had been active participants in the Homosexual lifestyle. 2) All were unquestionably “transformed” out of that lifestyle, many now living “normal” happy lives with wives and children. 3) Percentage of successful “transformation” undetermined. 4) Successful “transformation” was unquestionably dependent upon ones desire to be “transformed”. In other words, one’s desire to be changed (CHOICE not birth genetics) was a key necessity to successful “transformation”.

        After publishing this report our homosexual friends demonstrated their “tolerance” for true scientific research and free speech such that body guards are needed by Dr. Spitzer today.

        • Anon

          They aren’t ‘reformed gays’. It’s called being bisexual.

        • shadow_man

          LOL, did you seriously reference Spitzer? The guy who hand-picked people from religious organizations and NARTH, the heavily anti-gay organization? His work was discredited long ago. See, the problem with your “scientist” is that he tries to tie in religion. Science does not work like that. “Faith” will never be a part of the reality of science.

          Spitzer’s study was peer-reviewed, and these were the conclusions “Two years later, the paper was peer reviewed and published in the Archives of Sexual Behavior.[2] The publication decision sparked controversy and one sponsoring member resigned in protest. The paper has been criticized for using non-random sampling and poor criteria for success.[”

          http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_spit.htm

          More on spitzer, and look at that, all the religious affiliations! His work was rejected by credible organizations such as the APA, and rightfully so. Again, come back with some credible scientific evidence and maybe we’ll start taking you seriously.

      • Tim

        Hogwash is what it is, it is not science when science sets up the outcome, akin to the ?science? of Global Warming….

        All you guys need to go back to kindergarten :)

        • shadow_man

          Before talking about us going back to kindergarten, learn to form a coherent English sentence. It’s funny, studies show that people who don’t support gay marriage tend to be less educated. And it commonly shows in posts like this.

          • Tim

            Some people have no idea as to what is coherent, especially those who seem to think the regurgitation of information they hear in college provides them with an intelligent thought process.

            That is not to say all people with a college education are stupid, just some of them, and just because some people are Auto didactic does not always make them as stupid as some people seem to be.

            If the shoe fits, wear it.

          • shadow_man

            Sorry, but you are wrong again :) That information is not regurgitated from college, it is called doing your own research and forming your own conclusions. Ya know, like not sitting in a church and being a slave to your pastor?

      • Cris

        According to the National Association for Research and Treatment for Homosexuality regarding the recent APA report:

        1. The Report is unscientific and lacks objectivity

        and impartiality.

        2. The evidence for these “facts”

        either is not cited or nonexistent. The POLITICAL(emphasis added)

        decision to remove “homosexuality” from the

        DSM-II, APA resolutions, and opinion pieces

        by gay activists do not prove such assertions.

        3.The Report irresponsibly ignores fifty

        years of scientific and clinical evidence

        that psychological care for unwanted

        homosexuality was accepted, effective treatment

        which never has been shown to be ineffective.

        • shadow_man

          “It is worth noting that many medical and scientific organisations do believe it is impossible to change a person’s sexual orientation and this is displayed in a statement by American Academy of Pediatrics, American Counseling Association, American Association of School Administrators, American Federation of Teachers, American Psychiatric Association, American Psychological Association, American School Health Association, Interfaith Alliance Foundation, National Association of School Psychologists, National Association of Social Workers, and National Education Association.”

          I guess all of them are wrong then?

          You say the APA is wrong, where is the link to your “proofs”? Or like most anti-gays, you are making a laughable assumption?

          • Cris
          • shadow_man

            To Chris: LOL did you use a site that mentions NARTH and Byrd as “evidence”? NARTH is a well-known anti-gay organization and also for research fraud, and Byrd a well-known anti-gay who’s the President of NARTH, which has links to many religious organizations. That article you posted is a falsely report of the APA Change taken out of context by antigay activists:

            (Change *** with www)
            ***.truthwinsout.org/blog/antigay-activists-falsely-report-apa-change-of-view-regarding-gay-gene/

            You have nothing left to go on when you start citing anti-gay organizations. You might as well be using a religious site. Point is, neither of those are credible. What that article conveniently left out is:

            APA: “Many [researchers] think that nature and nurture both play complex roles; most people experience little or no sense of choice about their sexual orientation.”

            That article goes on the assumption that since there’s no single gay gene, it is not genetic. That is clearly false and illogical. If you read the links i posted or any of my posts, it is likely that there’s multiple genes/DNA that lead to homosexuality, and scientists are actively trying to figure that out. There is overwhelming biological evidence as well as other scientific studies that prove that homosexuality is not a choice, as shown in my links in my previous post.

            Narth references paul cameron as well(see above for info on this anti-gay)
            (Replace *** with www)
            ***.narth.com/docs/olson.html

            Who was kicked out of the APA and other research organizations for unethical practices.

            This is the sole reason why your side is losing. You try to twist anything out of context and use half-truths to support your bigotry. You’ve been proven wrong once again. Come back with a credible scientific link next time, not discredited organizations.

      • Cris

        In fact, the APA stated in 2008 that no findings have emerged that permit scientists to conclude that sexual orientation is determined by any particular factor or factors. Many think that both nature and nurture play complex roles…”
        homosexuality is a very complex behavior but to confuse “nature” with “natural” is also not right….it may be within their “nature” but the same argument can be used of any number of sexual acts including pedophilia. So I ask, honestly, where do/can we draw the line? How do we determine what is desirable and in the best interests of the gays and society at large?
        I am deeply troubled by the violence by both gays and straights….It does not help either side to resort to lies and name calling. I find it troubling the harassment by gays towards those who dare question homosexuality or try to leave the lifestyle. For example, Presidential candidate Barack Obama was criticized by gay activists for allowing ex-gay gospel singer Donnie McClurkin to sing at a fundraiser. They insisted that Obama drop the African-American singer from the program. Gay singers did not receive this treatment. San Diego firefighters John Ghiotto and Jason Hewitt, who were forced to ride in and were sexually harassed repeatedly by Gay PRIDE parade spectators, were denigrated at work and were DEMOTED in pay. Ex-gay conferences and seminars across the country are frequently picketed by anti-ex-gay protestors like PFLAG, a parents organization run by a gay activist, and Soulforce, a gay religious organization.
        The language and acts by those who hate gays is just as bad.
        Your own hatred and bigotry of people of faith and apparently anyone who might question your behavior is heart-breaking.
        Your assumption that I hate gays couldn’t be further from the truth…my sister is a lesbian and I love her dearly.

        • shadow_man

          Lol, did you seriously just compare pedophilia with sexual orientation? Where do we draw the line? Easy. Pedophilia is non-consenting, and harmful to children. Homosexuality is not. This is why your side will lose inevitability. You try to tie in irrelevant things, in this case, a very laughable comparison where anyone pass 3rd grade could see the big difference. Don’t try to play the victim card here.

          Most gays and straights that support gays could care less what religion you practice as long as your religious preferences and views do not spill over and influence law. Basically, you can worship, who, what or where you may as long as you are respectful of those who may believe differently than your self which would include those who choose not to embrace any faith at all. That is tolerance, not bigotry.

          On the other hand, all of the referendums taking away equal rights have been put on by religious conservatives trying to force their “bible” onto everyone else (misinterpreted bible at that) Now that is bigotry my friend.

    • Timothy Kincaid

      I assume that those who comment here wish, as the masthead says, to “live free”. Yet it seems that for many, that means, “I live free, but you live how I demand”. They wish to be free to marry who they want to marry, but gay folk should not be. Beyond all the sin talk and the “insanity of homosexuality” talk and “the people voted” talk is one underlying issue: Do you really (really) believe that people should have individual freedom to make the most important decisions in their own lives, or do you think that the state needs to put up restrictions to block the choices that politicians don’t like? In other words, do you REALLY believe that we should live free?

      • shadow_man

        I think we should live according to the rules of our national Constitution, which clearly advocates equality.

  • shadow_man

    Dr. smith: You consider yourself a christian? What you are doing is judging. That’s a no no if you are religious. But of course, like all hypocrites, this doesn’t apply to you does it? As for your “will of the people” argument, if civil rights were always left up to the will of the people, interracial marriage would still be outlawed, and racial segregation would still exist. And before you tell me, “it’s not the same thing,” it’s very similar. Bigotry is bigotry. You are discriminating someone based on something they can’t change. Just like you can’t change your skin color, you can’t change whom you are attracted to.

  • shadow_man

    Pat R: Homosexuality is not a sin in the Bible. The Bible is constantly being taken out of context to support anti-gay views. Any educated Christian would know that. Scholars who have studied the Bible in context of the times and in relation to other passages have shown those passages (Leviticus, Corinthians, Romans, etc) have nothing to do with homosexuality. These passages often cherry-picked while ignoring the rest of the Bible. The sins theses passages are referring to are idolatry, Greek temple sex worship, prostitution, pederasty with teen boys, and rape, not homosexuality or two loving consenting adults.

    (Change *** to www)
    ***.soulfoodministry.org/docs/English/NotASin.htm
    ***.jesus21.com/content/sex/bible_homosexuality_print.html
    ***.christchapel.com/romans_inter.html
    ***.stjohnsmcc.org/new/BibleAbuse/BiblicalReferences.php
    ***.gaychristian101.com/

  • Claire

    So many court cases. No wonder California is broke.

  • warbird

    The bible does very clearly call homosexuality a sin roundly and soundly in all its forms.As for judging, this would not be judgement by any person.God has already judged it and we stand in agreement with his judgement.As for the genetic and I cant help it trash.A pedophile,kleptomaniac or a serial rapist could easily make the same point and claim!!

  • shadow_man

    warbird: It’s funny you can’t refute my scientific links, you just proclaim its like pedophilia (lmao something totally irrelevant) What next, you going to say Satan is coming in 2012? Also, the Bible never stated homosexuality was a sin. Go ahead and bring up a passage that does, and i’ll gladly prove you wrong.

  • fat kitty

    If gay marriage is legalized, where does it end? Will first cousins, brothers and sisters, multiple spouse marriages all be next? The sanctity of marriage between a man and a woman has a purpose which is the proliferation of the family. It is well known that a strong family makes a strong community, state and country. You might want to read, “The 5,000 Year Leap”, which explains the Constitution and where it stands on homosexuality. Gay people are lucky that they can live openly in a free country. They do not have the right to change the law to fit their morality. No one does. There is a reason why God made marriage between a man and a woman. Gay people want to change God, Nature, and the law to fit their lifestyle. Why not just appreciate what you have and quit trying to shove your lifestyle off on everyone else? We cannot idolize ourselves by disrespecting God and our Constitution. Leave the holy sanctity of marriage alone please.

    • William Bush

      Fat kitty makes a very good point here. This country was founded on religious principles from the get go. If it was not, then we never had any right to break away from England and we should all go bow before the Queen right now. (Better her than our current President and Congressional leaders).
      If you disagree with me go read the Declaration of Independence, Jefferson states our right to break away given us by God about 5 times through-out the document.

      Shadow_man, some people are being intolerant of your choice in lifestyle, but you are also being intolerant of the majority upon which this nation was founded, making you no better.
      You are not required to stay here. You may move to Canada, or better yet France where they do let you impose your lifestyle on others, or you can stay here and live a productive life however you see fit accordingly to the law.

      • shadow_man

        I’ve proven that homosexuality is not a “lifestyle” or choice, and you still haven’t manage to discredit a single link.

        (Change *** to www)
        ***-news.uchicago.edu/releases/03/differential-brain-activation.pdf
        ***.newscientist.com/channel/sex/dn14146-gay-brains-structured-like-those-of-the-opposite-sex.html
        Gay, Straight Men’s Brain Responses Differ
        ***.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,155990,00.html
        ***.livescience.com/health/060224_gay_genes.html
        ***.springerlink.com/content/w27453600k586276/

        And it should also be noted that:
        “It is worth noting that many medical and scientific organisations do believe it is impossible to change a person’s sexual orientation and this is displayed in a statement by American Academy of Pediatrics, American Counseling Association, American Association of School Administrators, American Federation of Teachers, American Psychiatric Association, American Psychological Association, American School Health Association, Interfaith Alliance Foundation, National Association of School Psychologists, National Association of Social Workers, and National Education Association.”

        But since you refuse to acknowledge scientific evidence, let me ask you these questions:

        Are you male? (If not, reverse the questions to the other gender) If so, Are you sexually attracted to other men? Would you be able to enjoy sex with a man? Do you get sexual urges with a man? Do men turn you on sexually and emotionally? Could you be happy with a man sexually for the rest of your life? Does male/male porn or male sexual situations turn you on and arouse you?

        Go on and answer these and get back to me. I’m pretty sure i won’t be hearing from you again :)

    • Warrior

      Fat Kitty,
      You’re exactly correct. Although I have nothing against gay people, their behavior defy’s the laws of nature whether by choice or not. The situation is as abnormal as family members choosing to marry each other or the family pet. So, we set up tax laws that give breaks to married couples. Maybe it’s time to simplify the tax code and level the playing field for all.

      • BOE

        I have a good idea. Why don`t we outlaw marriage completely…then we will all be on equal ground. Then if you have children or can prove you are pregnant then you will be forced to marry. If you have several children by different fathers..then you should be forced to marry each father and they will be required to support the children. That should take care of welfare. And should put gays and straights on equal ground. HA..LOL

      • shadow_man

        Homosexuality by definition is natural. It has existed since the beginning of time, not only in humans, but in thousands of species of animals. Whether or not something is natural though, does nothing to prove if it’s right or wrong. But by definition, homosexuality is natural.

    • Curtis S

      Fat Kitty… Point One, cousins and siblings aren’t allowed to marry because the shallow genetic pool causes multitudes of birth defects… in the OFFSPRING. Birth defects in offspring aren’t a big problem in gay marriages. Point Two, “The sanctity of marriage between a man and a woman has a purpose which is the proliferation of the family.” And proliferation of the church that married the couple. It’s all about keeping the numbers strong for the church. (The Muslims openly brag that their prolific birth rates are why they will take over Europe). Point Three, gays don’t want to change nature, they are a part of nature your God made. Point Four, recognizing Gay rights doesn’t hurt you at all. Nobody is going to be rounding up fat kitties for forced marriages to other fat kitties. So relax, and try to be a little more open-minded and a little more tolerant of people that aren’t like you (or me).

    • shadow_man

      Ahh, the good ol slippery slope argument. I’ll show you why this fails.

      Let us take the 4 common arguments: beastiality, pedophilia, incest, and polygamy. First off, all 4 of these are fetishes, and irrelevant to homosexuality, which is a sexual orientation. Let me distinguish this for you using incest as an example. If a guy into incest is straight, he’ll choose his sister, and if he’s gay, he’ll choose his brother. See the distinguishment? Now pedophilia and beastiality will never be legal, because both are non-consenting and harmful, whereas homosexuality is 2 loving consenting adults that is not wrong or harmful. Incest, also has been shown to lead to genetic defects, so that is also out of the question. Incest also is a fetish, not a sexual orientation. I have never seen a person exclusively attracted to their brothers/sisters etc. Polygamy also is a choice. No one can choose who they would or will be attracted to, but they CAN choose to be in more than one relationship with more than one person at the same time. Polygamy can be damaging, as it can cause jealousies and resentments among the participants and any children produced. Those 4 fetishes can be seen to be harmful and wrong, whereas gay marriage is neither harmful nor wrong.

      Nice try in trying to bring irrelevant variables into the equation, because you can’t effectively find one good reason against gay marriage. In case you don’t understand, all those things you mentioned have harmful effects and there are various valid reasons why they shouldn’t be legalized, whereas gay marriage and homosexuality have no harmful effects, and there’s no good reason to deny it.

      With 5 years of gay marriage in Massachusetts, no one has asked to marry more than one other person in Massachusetts, let alone say the 14th amendment of the US Constitution gives them that right.

      The slippery slope is a myth meant as a scare tactic that’s quickly becoming obsolete.

      • Cris

        In countries (France, Spain, and Portugal) that allow same-sex marriage, polygamy and incest are NOT a crime. Romania is considering following suit as is Canada.

        • shadow_man

          But polygamy and incest are also not legal there. What’s your point? And what does gay marriage have to do with polygamy and incest? If you are against polygamy, go preach against it and prove it wrong in it’s appropriate forum. We are talking about gay marriage here, which is not harmful nor wrong.

          • Cris

            Lexington Herald-Leader (KY)
            March 22, 2009
            Section: Main News
            Edition: Final
            Page: A16

            Romania might end legal ban on incest
            ALINA WOLFE MURRAYAND GEORGE JAHN ASSOCIATED PRESS

            BUCHAREST, Romania – Surprising as it might seem, incest is not always a crime in Europe.
            Three European Union nations – France, Spain and Portugal – do not prosecute consenting adults for incest, and Romania is considering following suit.

            The shocking case of Austrian Josef Fritzl, found guilty last week of holding his daughter captive for 24 years and fathering her seven children, has focused new attention on incest – which is a crime in itself in Austria, even if the act is consensual.

            But in the Fritzl case it was in connection with rape, homicide and other charges that led to a sentence of life in a secure psychiatric ward.

            Laws exempting parents, grandparents, brothers and sisters from prosecution for incestuous acts if they are not forced on adult family members are decades old in France, Spain and Portugal.

            In Romania, decriminalizing incest among consenting adults is being considered as part of a range of reforms to the country’s criminal code. No date has been set for parliament to vote on the bill, and opposition is fervent, even among some lawmakers in the ruling coalition.

            Currently all forms of incest in Romania are punishable by up to seven years in prison. But Romania’s Justice Ministry suggests the new legislation would move the country – which joined the European Union two years ago – closer legally to some other EU members.

            “Not everything that is immoral has to be illegal,” said Justice Ministry legal expert Valerian Cioclei. “We cannot help these people by turning them into criminals and punishing them.”

            Incest is defined as sexual intercourse between people too closely related to marry legally. In the United States, all 50 states and the District of Columbia prohibit incest.

          • shadow_man

            Cris: LOL, what does Romania have to do with anything? Gay marriage isn’t even legal there. You’re getting very desperate trying to condone your bigotry. In fact, i’ll pull up something for you. In most places of Africa and the Middle East, where anti-gay views are very high and being gay is actually considered a crime, those places all have legalized polygamy. It isn’t rocket science to see that anti-gay countries tend to legalize polygamy:

            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Polygamystatusworldwide.png

            Check the sources too. It’s valid :)

        • Cris

          I mentioned it because in countries that have now legalized same-sex marriage are now, because of law suits, allowing any and all definitions of marriage. If incest is no longer a crime, then it is legal.

          • shadow_man

            Actually quite the opposite is true. Countries that tend to be heavily anti-gay and 3rd world, have polygamy legalized:

            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Polygamystatusworldwide.png

            Check the resources from that article as well, they are valid.

            Most countries that have gay marriage legalized, have polygamy outlawed. Simple observation shows that gay marriage does not lead to polygamy.

  • Arsen

    Marriage isn’t the vital institution which marks the progress of human society. Government is. That’s why so many people have fought and died over who is in charge of their nations.

    • Joe

      Arsen, not to be argumentative. I agree, marriage is not the vital institution which marks the progress of human society (perhaps it could be said that it is the glue that holds a civilized society together. However, government is also not the vital institution that marks the progress of human society. What marks the progress of human society is the level of individual freedom and self determination that can be enjoyed within a society. Yes, people fight over who is in charge of government and that is what the gay marriage issue is, a fight over who rules in America. The thing is, freedom and self-determination mark the progress of acivilized society only to the point that all citizens are equally free. This is not possible without some bedrock, common intellectual agreement on the difference between what is right and wrong for individuals to do, for groups to do, for all to do. That bedrock agreement existed at the foundation of the United States. It has since been subverted, has become decayed and is at present in grave danger of ceasing to exist. When it does, the freedom it gave us will also cease to exist. The homosexual rights agenda is a cause of that decay, a degeneration in the foundation of our country and society as a whole. It certainly is not the only cause of that degeneration and decay. It is said by some that ‘our strength is our diversity’. That is false. Strength is only found in unity. The more we become diverse and confused in what is right and what is wrong, the weaker we become as a society. I do not believe that trend can be stopped. We are in a lot of trouble. All we can do is resist the evil that degenerates us to the best of our ability, such as California did when they voted down gay marriage.

      • shadow_man

        It’s funny, you say homosexuality is immoral, and leads to the decay of the United States, yet you fail to provide one good reason of why. Typical anti-gay :) That’s why your side will lose in the end. You have no good reason why homosexuality is “harmful” or “wrong”, you always just say “it is” or try to twist the words of the Bible to make it seem wrong, much like the racists of the past who twisted the Bible to condone slavery and racial segregation.

        Good job to DC, mexico city, and soon to be portugal for legalizing gay marriage. Many other countries will soon follow suit for equality and tolerance. The question is, will you hop aboard the progressive train of human rights, or be left behind like the racists were?

  • james beal

    What ever happened to church- state separation? Wasn’t that the founding basis above all else from which all other freedoms flow including religion? Those of you who quote Bible scripture and would probably prefer to have the Bible in place of the Constitution, need only look at the nonsense in Iran where they also believe much the same as you on such matters. Only there, neither strait or gay life is all that precious. Favored majorities or minorities usually create a severe backlash over time that no amount of religious, political or ‘moral’ justification will ever calm. It is not normal in spiritual or humanistic values to be satisfied with inferior status regardless how intensely someone else supports such notions on any grounds. There will always be some pet justification for such social differentiation, condemnation, and finally, separation and exclusion. Nothing particularly inspired about that. All human history is full of such egotistical foolishness. If your spiritual intellect only embraces popular prejudice and habitual bible quoting, then you’re no more inspired than zealots of today, who claim countless lives in the good name of God and religion. And those who find a bit more articulate excuses for their homophobic stance, I can only say that if your arguments don’t dignify all good people, they don’t qualify anyone. Period.

    • http://PeronalLibertyDigest JAP

      James, it is your choice to believe or not to believe. I would rather believe God is who he says he is and go to heaven, than not believe and go to hell (as crude as that may sound). If there is a Heaven, I won’t miss going, if there isn’t, I have had a blessed life with joy and peace (even in my trials of life).

      But I don’t want to choose the alternative (hell) because I know how vicious evil is on this earth, and I don’t want to spend eternity in that.

      Talking about “homophobics”, you are talking about ignorance. Many things have been done wrong in the name of “religion” and Christianity, which are not of God. In this world, we have darkness, since the beginning of time because of man’s sin. There will always be evil until the return of the Lord.

      The unfortunate part is that many Christians have no idea what God’s Word (the Bible) says and therefore do not grow into maturity and fulfill the purpose that God created them to be. Evil is rampart, and allowed, that it has a stronghold on this nation, and those who do see the wrongs are powerless to change things. That is where our “relationship” with God takes hold. He is our only hope of any changes. God has said “If My people who are called by My name, will HUMBLE themselves and pray, and seek My face, and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven and heal their land.” (that means us…) That at this point has not been done. Many have failed.

      However, Christianity is not a “religion”, it is a personal relationship with a living God. In our relationship with Him, He directs our steps, He sends us to help others, as He meets our needs.

      “Religion” is man attempt to find God; Christianity is God’s reaching down to man (through Christ Jesus) to bridge the gap, bringing us back to him. There is no peace in religion as a formality, but Jesus is the only one that can change a cold hard heart, or a nation.

      Jesus said he did not come to bring peace on this earth. (Not one here is perfect) but to save us. The real peace comes in our hearts from a relationship with Him. This life is temporary, but His Spirit in us gives us eternal life. Oh what a great future. The Book of John in the Bible is rich and you’ll get a birds-eye view of what He’s all about. Don’t dispare about what goes on around you. It is very discouraging. We cannot make others do right, we can only get our hearts right. But when we know the end of the Book, we have a future that is awesome. We live one day at a time, sharing and caring for those around us and doing what God calls us to do. But we have to be sensitive to His Spirit to hear Him, and that comes from knowing Him personally. I encourage you. Talk to Him, He’ll tell you.

      • shadow_man

        Religion was created because:

        1) At one time with no science, man needed a way to explain occurrences in the natural world

        2) Man fears death, and hopes there is something at the end of their life. They want meaning in their life, but the reality is, there will be no existence most likely.

        3) Man thinks he is significant and superior to all other life forms. When the truth is he is no more significant than that dog, lion, or ant.

        4) The most significant reason, for money and power. Especially in the past.

        • Curtis S

          shadow_man… Pat Robertson, James Dobson, Jerry Falwell et al still use the mythology of religion for money and power. Dobson grabs at power by using his Focus on the Family to elect conservatives and then he tries control foreign policy. Jim and Tammy Faye Baker well that was all about the money… and the sex. Jerry Falwell and the Moral Majority elected Reagan violating their tax exempt status. Jimmy Swaggart… well that was a religious front to provide an income for buying prostitutes. Religion is all about indoctrinating gullible people, especially children and making them scared for life. That gives them the power and then the fleecing of the sheep comes when the never stop asking for more and more of that tax exempt money. The use of religion for power and control is not a thing of the past… sadly.

          • shadow_man

            I agree. Religion is still used as a force today, but it was worse in the past, where they used it to hinder science or basically anyone who didn’t believe (crusades, etc) On a bright note, religion is on a sharp decline. The more they spread their hate, the more people will turn their back.

  • http://none Roger

    Some who say they are gay want children. Why? If homosexuality is normal for them as they say and they cannot change (which is not true because some have changed with God’s help), then having children is also NOT normal for them and therefore adoption of children should be denied.

    Another thing, since in CA we can vote to pass a proposition or even to add an amendment to our constitution, then if some judge or judges can determine that what the majority voted on is unconstitutional then they can say that ANYTHING we vote on is likewise void. An example is the “separation of church and state”. Nowhere is that in the Constitution or Bill of Rights, but some judges decided that concept should rule us. And now, Coakley who is running for Ted Kennedy’s seat in the Senate said because of that concept no Christian should be allowed to work in an emergency ward.

    Sorry, Shadow Man, but Jesus said that He is the only way to the Father in Heaven. There are many who say they are Christians but deny Jesus as Lord. Where do you stand? Many people think that they are going to Heaven, but we all have sinned in God’s eyes and deserve Hell but Jesus came to change us if we will follow Him. True, the Bible says not to judge but Jesus also said that you will know them by their fruit. Why do some want to hide the Ten Commandments? Does it make them feel guilty? Better to deal with your guilt than to face the wrath of God.

    • shadow_man

      With your logic, interracial marriage should have never been legalized and racial segregation should still remain intact. During that time period, majority of people (as high as 80%, check the old gallup polls) were against interracial marriages, yet the courts went against the “will of the people” What do you gotta say about that? And yes, its the same thing, just like you can’t change your skin color, you can’t change whom you are sexually attracted to.

      Also, you speak of Jesus, yet you are breaking two of his biggest rules: You are judging, and you are a hypocrite. You are also attempting to twist God’s words to condone your bigotry. God NEVER said homosexuality was a sin.

      The Bible is constantly being taken out of context to support anti-gay views. Any educated Christian would know that. Scholars who have studied the Bible in context of the times and in relation to other passages have shown those passages (Leviticus, Corinthians, Romans, etc) have nothing to do with homosexuality. These passages often cherry-picked while ignoring the rest of the Bible. The sins theses passages are referring to are idolatry, Greek temple sex worship, prostitution, pederasty with teen boys, and rape, not homosexuality or two loving consenting adults.

      (Change *** to www)
      ***.soulfoodministry.org/docs/English/NotASin.htm
      ***.jesus21.com/content/sex/bible_homosexuality_print.html
      ***.christchapel.com/romans_inter.html
      ***.stjohnsmcc.org/new/BibleAbuse/BiblicalReferences.php
      ***.gaychristian101.com/

  • Robert

    Jesus. Enough with this issue. I don’t care if two men or two women want to marry each other. It’s sick, but I don’t care. What I care about is what this administration is doing to this country. What I care about is that there are Muslim terrorists out there that want to kill us Americans. What I care about is that there are no jobs out there. What I care about is this abominable healt care reform bill that will control our lives. What I care about is this Government’s out of control spending and the deficit they are piling on top of us. And what I really care about is how many games the Yankess will win their division by. I think I got my priorities in order.

    • George

      Yeah, but how do you really feel? ha. Thanks for trying to bring this conversation back to earth……

  • RC

    10th Amendment
    “The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people.”

    That means that the people of California can choose whether to have gay marriage or not, and they said “NO!!!” on gay marriage. Respect their 10th amendment rights, gay activists.

    The 10th amendment is on their side not yours.

    • shadow_man

      The national Constitution also said we are all created equal. So i guess in the 1960′s when California voted to keep racial segregation intact in white neighborhoods (California voters passed proposition 14 in the 1960′s with a 65% majority, a constitutional amendment intended to counter the Rumford Fair Housing Act enacted the year before, keeping racial segregation intact in neighborhoods, and allowing them to refuse to sell property to blacks in order to keep blacks out of white neighborhoods.) So i guess we should have left that law intact too huh?

  • http://none Roger

    James, you wrote “where they also believe much the same as you on such matters.” Where did you get the idea that the God of the Bible is the same as Allah of Islam? At least that seems to me the meaning of your statement – sorry if I misinterpreted what you meant. Christians are not instructed to kill those who disagree with their theology whereas Muslims are. The Bible says “do not murder” – some versions say “do not kill”, but the Hebrew word is better translated “murder”.

  • http://PeronalLibertyDigest JAP

    This is still America even though more and more it doesn’t look like it, and Judges have no right to go against the majority of the people in issues we believe as immoral. Even though our laws in this nation have been so watered-down, it is still the Constitutional right of Americans to have their vote count.

    Being a prostitute is a choice; being gay is a choice; being a gambler is choice, being an alcoholic is a choice, etc, but they are addictive habits of the flesh which unfortunately become a lifestyle for whatever background or psychological reasons. All of them have rights as an American citizen, but they should NOT have special privileges any more than any other person.

    1 Cor. 6:9-11:”…Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God. Such were some of you, but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of God.” So we all sin but have opportunity to change.

    As sinners we confess (and repent)our sins and believe that a loving God has already provided forgiveness, and we are cleansed. He does not condemn us but came to save us (John 3:17) from the wrath to come (and ourselves). He loves us because He created us for a purpose (of course many have not found that purpose yet). He did not create us as robots but allows us free choice.

    If we choose not to repent, this world is all there is. We certainly know that there is evil just by looking around us every day – what we see in the news, tv, and movies, not to mention the chaos in the world. Even many prosperous people are miserable. So I want to believe that there is a Greater Being, than ourselves and our appetites. He is Creater God and is good. For those who believe in Him, what the evil one meant for evil, God works out for our good.

    You may disagree with what I am saying but I know by experience that
    true joy and peace (even in the midst of trials) only comes from a Holy God, rather than depending on mere emotions, having things, or the various appetites of the flesh.

    • Curtis S

      JAP… when you woke-up this morning, did you decide that you’d be heterosexual today? Did you choose to be straight today? Nobody chooses to be straight or gay… they just are. You can choose to drink and you can choose to gamble and become addicted to the feeling those activities give you. Few people choose to be prostitutes. Prostitution is about money, usually money for drugs. Like I said, YOU didn’t decide to be straight today, what makes you think other people choose to be gay?

    • shadow_man

      First off, i’m glad you hate judges so much. You know, the same judges who led to the legalization of interracial marriage and abolition of racial segregation in the past. They went against the “will of the people” Bad judges right!

      Second, i’m very glad you brought up Corinthians, so i can show you how absurd your interpretation is.

      I Corinthians 6:9-11
      Let us examine that very closely.

      Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither the immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate [malakoi], nor homosexual offenders [arsenokoites], nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor robbers will inherit the kingdom of God.

      First of all, before we address this line, let us consider one thing. Supposedly taken from a 2000+ year old book, understand that the word “homosexual” was not coined until 1869 by Austrian-born novelist Karl-Maria Kertbeny. So how it happens to be included in a true reading of the particular biblical passage should make you ponder how accurate the interpretation actually is. So man changing the words of the Bible to conveniently spread hate? I think so.

      Now onto the interpretation, i’ve included the original Greek words as well where it’s relevant.

      Paul was attempting to educate the new Christians in Corinth as to what Godly living was all about. In verses 9-10, he listed ways of living that were not compatible with a Christ-centered life. In verse 11, Paul reminded them that they had been saved out of those destructive ways. There are two Greek words in I Corinthians 6:9, which sometimes are translated with a homosexual connotation.

      First word, “malakoi” or “malakos” – it literally means soft or mushy; it can mean spineless, wishy-washy or without backbone. “Malakoi” was used four other times in the New Testament and it always meant “soft.” The context of I Corinthians seems to imply a moral softness or decadence, a failure to stand up for what is right and godly. It is significant that for several hundred years there was no sexual connotation assigned to this word.

      Second word, “arsenokoitai” or “arsenokoites” – it literally means, “males having sex.” Early commentaries on I Corinthians related “arsenokoitai” to male temple prostitutes and to men having sex with boys. (Idolatrous prostitution and pedophilia are always wrong for those seeking to honor God.)

      Homosexual relationships were known in the Greco-Roman culture of Paul’s day. The Greek word commonly used in reference to adult male same sex partners was “arrenokoites.” Paul did not use this word. Instead, he created his own, “arsenokoitai.” If Paul had intended to condemn all adult male same sex partners, he would have used the common word for it.

      Stop twisting God’s words to condone your bigotry.

  • WW

    Start with the premise, that their is no god. The next concept would be that religions and all their beliefs would be void. Next, consider that marriage is a secular agreement to allow property rights. And thus has no standing with the purpose of procreation. James Beal makes a number of valid points and one needs to understand the “establishment clause”, which has been decided to mean “seperation of church and state”, and the “religious” need to understand that “they” should not impose their beliefs on anyone else, no matter how self rightous or morally superior they might feel. I live life to take advantage of all the planet can offer me, and that includes “live and let live”, for once I am dead, the energy we call life, is no longer. It is useless to argue about things that are of this world, with interpretations of some “supernatural being or concept” determining how the people on the planet “should live”!! The phoney belief argument holds no substance for rational debate.

    • Meteorlady

      You can take the religion out of it and I still think it’s somehow not natural or normal behavior.

      • George

        It just doesn’t meet the “common sense” test for most people.

      • shadow_man

        Homosexuality by definition is natural, as it occurs among thousands of species of animals. But whether or not something is natural, is irrelevant to whether or not it is right or wrong.

        Second, it may not be in the “norm” but neither are blue-eyed people, left-handed people, blacks in America, and people who wear eyeglasses. Just because they aren’t in the majority doesn’t make them wrong.

        What is not normal, is hating someone for being different for no valid good reason.

        • George

          I don’t hate anyone. I do disagree with some, however.

          Why do you think there are two sexual genders? Why not just one?

          • shadow_man

            Just because there are only 2 sexual genders does not imply that homosexuality is wrong. You are making a huge assumption. The better question is, why are there 4+ sexual orientations? Obviously biology and mother nature meant much more than the man mates with woman when she created homosexuals. (i’m assuming here that you think homosexuality is a choice, when i’ve proven and general logic proves it’s not)

            On another note, homosexuality can be beneficial in many ways. One is the alleviation of overpopulation, something we need to do in today’s world. (although homosexuals can reproduce if really needed) Another is how homosexuality can actually help benefit the species:

            Scientific study in this link:
            http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/06/080617204459.htm, demonstrates the empirical model of what is known about the occurrence of homosexuality along family lines and postulates that it serves to give a reproductive advantage to female members of the family.

            What you’re saying is your way is the only right way. That’s false. There are many ways. That’s what makes this world so great. Diversity.

          • George

            Shadow_Man,

            You are reading a lot into my two questions. Nevertheless, I do appreciate your point of view. I can see this subject is important to you.

            I don’t think I said my way is the only right way. I did say that while I don’t know with absolute certainty, “I believe” homosexual behavior is wrong. In any case, I agree with you that diversity makes our world interesting and should be celebrated, not scorned.

          • shadow_man

            George: I’m glad that you have a reasonable reply, unlike most anti-gays. But i want to know your personal reason why you feel homosexual behavior is wrong.

      • obiwan

        If only the desire to educate ones self were as natural as gross
        ignorance seems to be.

    • fat kitty

      It seems to me that the more people kick God out of everything, the more problems we have. America was founded on the principles of God and Natural Law. Those who disagree have a right to voice say so but not a right to change it. There is no civilization in history that has come as far as the United States has in such a short period of time. We were able to progress and grow in positive ways because of these principles. The USA has been the light of the world. No, we are not perfect but good Americans have worked hard and sacrificed for positive and meaningful change. It is the shredding of our Constitution that has caused many of today’s problems. It is the lack of God that is the root of all our problems. We have to stand up for our faith and our principles if we ever hope to get our country back. What is happening right now in our administration is wicked and just plain wrong because power and money have been put before God. We owe it to those who have fought and died for this country to stand up for what is right. Gay marriage is just not right, I don’t care how a person wants to twist the scripture and profess how nature is to be. God did not make rules to take away our freedom and fun. He knew that without some guidelines for living that man would lose freedoms and ultimately destroy himself. Throwing our morals aside so that we can feel good is a recipe for disaster.

      • obiwan

        Religion and people like you, ignorant, intolerant and hypocritical are the problem. Religion is the great divider. Each group “knows”
        they are right and all others are wrong. Real tolerance is keeping your perverted noses out of others bedrooms. In a sane world a
        religious groups moral judgements would never extend past its own
        congregation.
        The next great scientific breakthrough, religion is a genetic disorder!

        • Curtis S

          Your response is ironic considering your name Jedi master! Your response is also very funny. Do you think there’s a chance that the god-gene can be discovered and prove once and for all that religion and the belief in a supreme being is delusional? Hopefully the human species can evolve to the point where we don’t need ethereal beings demanding obedience from their mortal slaves. It would sure cut down on a lot of wars and deaths (and intolerance and hatred in God’s name.

          • obiwan

            I agree and hope your right Curtis. John Lennon said it, “Imagine”

  • Meteorlady

    You can pass law after law to legitimize something and people will still not like it. I liked it better when they were all in the closet and I didn’t have it staring me in the face.

    • George

      I think most of us are fairly tolerant and willing to look the other way if two people of the same gender want to live together. We just don’t want to have to acknowledge that the gay/lesbian lifestyle is normal, and we don’t want our children taught that it is normal, either. Stay out of my bedroom, and I’ll gladly stay out of yours…..

      • shadow_man

        So what makes homosexuality wrong? Give me one good reason it should be seen as a bad thing, and you’ll have a point. Good luck though, because i have yet to see a good reason against it that i cannot easily refute. I shall be waiting for your answer.

        • George

          Shadow Man,

          I’ll be happy to give you some of the reasons I don’t think homosexuality is good or normal behavior, but I’m pretty sure you won’t see them as “good” according to your personal tests. Like so many things in life, this is a personal judgment, and two sincere people may just disagree on these sorts of things. I can’t say with absolute certainty that homosexuality is wrong, but I can tell you that I believe it is wrong, or at least unnatural behavior. That’s my opinion.

          Now, for my reasons. First, I am a Christian and as such we are taught that homosexual behavior is wrong. You may not agree with this, but that’s my belief, and I hope you’ll respect my right to that belief, and my right to practice my religion without interference from the government or homosexual community. Second, as others have pointed out in this discussion, it seems obvious to me that God (Nature, if you prefer) designed men and women differently for the primary reason of creating children. As much as you might like it to be different, this is impossible between two people of the same gender. I have other reasons why I don’t personally like homosexual behavior, but I think these two are at the top of my list.

          I hope you understand that I don’t hate any homosexual person. In fact, most of the homosexual people I’ve known have been very nice people. The issue for me is to what extent our society is forced (by the courts and other executive orders and regulations) to accept homosexual behavior as normal behavior. If citizens vote to give homosexuals the same rights as non-homosexuals, then I think I’ll be able to accept it a little easier. As a conservative, I believe I have my limits as to how much tyranny I’m willing to tolerate from our government and courts. At some point, we will push back, and the result may not be pretty for those who have grown accustomed to getting what they want by simply dictating it be so over the will of the American people.

          • Curtis S

            Hey George… You said “[you are] a Christian and as such we are taught that homosexual behavior is wrong.” You were “taught” homosexuality was wrong. Prejudices are “taught”. The Klan teaches their children to hate people of other races and the church teaches its children to hate gays. It’s not a flattering similarity.

            You said… “God (Nature, if you prefer) designed men and women differently for the primary reason of creating children. As much as you might like it to be different, this is impossible between two people of the same gender.”
            There are many heterosexual couples that find it impossible to create children and there are heterosexual couples that choose not to create children. This point is basically irrelevant.
            George, there’s nothing about homosexuality that appeals to me personally, but there’s plenty of freaky things men and women do that doesn’t appeal to me either. However, what two consenting adults do in private, is totally within their rights and I’m okay with that. What I’m not comfortable with are the truly bogus arguments being made to prevent same-sex marriages. The intolerance, bigotry and outright hatred and why? Because you are a Christian “…and as such [you] are TAUGHT that homosexual behavior is wrong.” Maybe Christians can learn that homosexuality isn’t wrong, it’s just different. If you were taught to hate gays, maybe you can be taught not to.

          • shadow_man

            I listen to all reasons as i’m still searching for a good, valid reason that i can’t refute.

            Addressing your points:

            1) So basically you are saying you just follow what others say without forming your own logical reasoning. Your religious arguments goes back to square one, religious people say it’s wrong, but cannot provide a reason why, other than “it says so in the Bible” Second, the Bible never says homosexuality is a sin. Your arguments sound like you are more of an intelligent person, so i’ll show you the interpretations of lines commonly used (Leviticus, corinthians) to condemn homosexuality:

            (Change *** to www)
            ***.soulfoodministry.org/docs/English/NotASin.htm
            ***.jesus21.com/content/sex/bible_homosexuality_print.html
            ***.christchapel.com/romans_inter.html
            ***.stjohnsmcc.org/new/BibleAbuse/BiblicalReferences.php
            ***.gaychristian101.com/

            These links show how those lines are taken out of context and actually are talking about idolatrous practices that were widespread during the Biblical times.

            Unfortunately, you probably won’t read those links, since you said yourself you only believe what your religious people tell you.

            2) You wrote “Second, as others have pointed out in this discussion, it seems obvious to me that God (Nature, if you prefer) designed men and women differently for the primary reason of creating children.”

            God and nature created homosexuals for their purposes. Here, you are assuming homosexuality is a choice. It’s not.

            (Change *** to www)
            ***-news.uchicago.edu/releases/03/differential-brain-activation.pdf
            ***.newscientist.com/channel/sex/dn14146-gay-brains-structured-like-those-of-the-opposite-sex.html
            Gay, Straight Men’s Brain Responses Differ
            ***.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,155990,00.html
            ***.livescience.com/health/060224_gay_genes.html
            ***.springerlink.com/content/w27453600k586276/

            There is overwhelming scientific evidence that homosexuality is not a choice. Sexual orientation is generally a biological trait that is determined pre-natally, although there is no one certain thing that explains all of the cases. “Nurture” may have some effect, but for the most part it is biological.

            I respect that you have a differing opinion, but your opinion is based on falsehoods and is contrary to scientific observation. From reading your post, it’s pretty clear you confuse sex with sexual orientation, and think that being gay is a choice, when it’s not. God (if he exists) and mother nature both created homosexuals and loves them. Here’s a scientific link that shows how homosexuality may benefit the species:

            (Change *** to www)
            ***.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/06/080617204459.htm, demonstrates the empirical model of what is known about the occurrence of homosexuality along family lines and postulates that it serves to give a reproductive advantage to female members of the family.

          • George

            Curtis,

            I appreciate your point of view. Thanks for making logical arguments. Following are my thoughts.

            Regarding your first point, it sounds to me like you’re saying since I was taught something in my religious faith, it must be prejudiced thinking, because prejudices are taught by religions. Surely you don’t believe that, because then we would have to conclude that everything taught by religions is prejudiced. My religion teaches us to love our fellow man. I’m pretty sure you don’t think that is prejudiced, or more to the point, immoral thinking.

            To your point that just because men and women are created for the purpose of creating children, this point is irrelevant because there are heterosexual couples who choose not to have children. I disagree with your conclusion. What men/women choose to do is quite different from what Nature/God chooses to do. I don’t think you can equate the two. Nature/God trumps man/woman.

            I agree with you that we shouldn’t care what consenting adults do in the privacy of their bedrooms. However, I would like them to keep it in their bedrooms, and out of the public view, if that’s not asking too much.

            I don’t particularly like a lot of the arguments (and especially tone of those arguments and statements) that I read condemning homosexuality, or a lot of other things for that matter. However, I don’t want to say that their arguments and opinions are bogus just because I don’t necessarily agree with the way some of these things are said. I do think a lot of the statements made damage our arguments because many do come across as being narrow-minded, believing that their beliefs are the only correct beliefs. So, while I may disagree with the way many state their opinions in this regard, I fundamentally agree with them that I believe homosexual behavior is wrong. (Notice, I said “I believe” it’s wrong. I didn’t say “it’s wrong.” There’s an important difference.)

            Finally, I’m getting a little sensitive to claims made by some that Christianity teaches intolerance, bigotry, and hatred. I’ve been associated with several Christian faiths over the years, and I’ve never known one to outright teach those kinds of things. I’m not saying that none do, but I haven’t seen it if they do. (I guess the church Obama attended in Chicago for many years might possibly be an exception, however, based on the public statements and appearances I’ve seen.) On the other hand, I have seen a lot of good things taught by these religions. So, if you do see bad behavior by one church or religion, please do not extend the assumption that all churches or religions also behave poorly. They’re not all the same, but do share some fine underlying values which help the world to be a better place for most of us.

          • George

            Shadow_Man,

            Regarding refuting my arguments, does it matter to you that you haven’t convinced me that you’ve refuted my arguments? If you are the judge and jury, then you’ll always win these debates………….at least in your mind. I don’t agree with you, and I think you should stop arguing because I said that “I believe” homosexual behavior is wrong. I have a right to my personal beliefs and opinions, just like you do. I don’t believe you’ve conclusively proven your point, nor do I believe that’s possible. I do believe you can construct logical arguments all day long, just like I can, but you don’t have the empirical proof to close the debate. In fairness, neither do I. It really comes down to what we choose to believe is true. We’ve explained why we hold the beliefs that we do, and that’s the end of it. I’ll try to respect your opinion, and ask that you try to respect mine.

            I agree with you that God loves everyone. That shouldn’t be an issue.

          • shadow_man

            George: Convincing a religious person is virtually impossible. That’s not what i’m trying to do. I already know the results in most cases. For equality to happen, we have to wait for the older, more intolerant generations to pass on, as majority of the 18-30 group support gay marriage, and the number is higher among those under 18.

            What i am looking for, is a valid reason why homosexuality is wrong. Your post doesn’t show it. I won that debate, because i applied evidence and logic, whereas i noticed you did not refute a single point i made.

            Of course, you have the right to your opinions, but i also have the right to call you out on your opinions. People usually have opinions for a reason, but i clearly pointed out why your opinions were wrong, using scientific evidence/logic/reasoning.

            You also wrote: “I do believe you can construct logical arguments all day long, just like I can, but you don’t have the empirical proof to close the debate. ”

            You haven’t given me one logical argument yet, nor have you refuted any of my points. You just keep saying, it’s my own view. Opinions are just that, opinions. And facts are facts. I’ve proven that homosexuality is not a sin, nor is it a choice, which in turn, proves your opinion wrong.

          • George

            Shadow,

            You’ve proven only that this is a subject that you really care about. That’s all. It doesn’t matter how many logical arguments, “facts” or opinions you present, I don’t agree that homosexual behavior is nornal. This is a topic which we’ll probably never agree on. I guess that’s where we will have to leave it. As to whether or not the US should recognize homosexual marriages, that’s a topic for a broader discussion.

          • Curtis S

            To Shadow Man and George… what you two should agree on is quite simply this… you both passionately and intelligently debated the issue and to your credit there was no name calling or insults. It was interesting watching (reading) two obviously intelligent people having an honest debate. Thanks for being interesting with class and civility.

          • shadow_man

            George: Yep. As i stated earlier, convincing a religious person is virtually impossible. However, i post logical/scientific proof in many places showing why homosexuality is not wrong/harmful. I don’t expect to reach out to religious folks, especially of the older generation, but to those who are willing to accept facts and to those who are on the borderline of not knowing whether or not to support gay marriage. I’m posting mostly to educate.

  • JohnA

    Homosexuality is banned by God because it is both a mental disease and a grave health hazard whose practitioners, if not institutionalized, rendered harmless

  • Curtis S

    Sorry, right or wrong the people of California have spoken. The Gay community has every right to be disappointed and hurt, but it is what it is. Let the issue settle for a while and try again later. Try to educate people about the issue and try to get on the next ballot. (Don’t waste your time on the rabidly narrow-minded who have been indoctrinated from childhood to believe in some ridiculous mythology that is 2000 years old and blatantly plagiarizes even older superstitions). Going to court is just going to make things uglier. Patience is a virtue, try again in 2012 (and if you win the religious folk will think the Mayans were right!)

    • JeffH

      Curtis S…well said.

    • shadow_man

      At one time, California voters passed proposition 14 in the 1960′s with a 65% majority, a constitutional amendment intended to counter the Rumford Fair Housing Act enacted the year before, keeping racial segregation intact in neighborhoods, and allowing them to refuse to sell property to blacks in order to keep blacks out of white neighborhoods.

      The people have spoken! We should have left racial segregation intact.

      Sorry, but when the ignorant people speak, it’s up to the government and judges to see if what they speak is in line with our national Constitution. Denying gay marriage goes against our country of equality and what this great nation was founded on. If you want a religious country, Iran ==> Let’s see how long you last over there.

      • Curtis S

        Shadow_man… I’m on your side, and your analogies to the progress made by the Civil Rights movement are dead on. BUT… racial equality didn’t happen overnight and there were set-backs. Common sense and understanding will prevail and eventually same-sex marriage will be recognized. With all due respect, I just don’t think forcing the issue in the courts is the right tactic right now and I think that’s the ONLY disagreement I have with anything you’ve posted so far.

        • shadow_man

          Hehe, yeah i agree with you on that, i don’t think now is the time to address the issue in the courts, especially the Supreme Court where conservatives hold a slight number advantage, and are Catholic. The prop 8 case going on right now, i think the ruling will favor the anti-gays, but the issue will definitely come back in the future. Many rulings were made to segregate blacks for decades, until the final ruling in 1968 that declared marriage a fundamental right. I’m hoping in my lifetime though, i will see gay marriage legalized in the U.S. at a federal level. I will always have hope.

  • wildthing

    I would like to know what planet they are from. They talk about equal rights. They have the right to marry just like anybody else; just not the same sex. I think I am going to puke. What happened to all the real men? As far as the women goes, I don’t understand that one either.

    Did you hear about how Meredith Baxter-Birney was married to 3 different men, had 5 children, and then decided “oh, I am a lesbian”. See, you are not born that way; it is a choice. I feel sorry for all the confused children when they grow up. There is going to be a lot of problems when this all comes to a head.

    Why bother to vote if this is going to happen every time? It is a waste of time and effort and postage stamp. Same thing happens when they run a school levy; if it doesn’t go the way they want it, they just keep running it till it finally does. Why bother?

    I heard on the news if you are homosexual, you DON’T want to be in China.

    • obiwan

      Why Bother? Why bother to let someone as ignorant as you have a vote.
      There will be some confused children when they leave the nest, yours.

    • shadow_man

      That’s just like saying, we should never have legalized interracial marriage. Blacks can still marry, just not outside their race! See how absurd that logic is?

  • wildthing

    “I heard on the news if you are homosexual, you DON’T want to be in China.”

    I did hear this on the news today, but I read something different on the computer; a China web site but come to think of it, it was dated 2004, or 2001 or 2007, depends which story you’re talking about.

  • zeke

    So we want to redefine marriage. Why? Just change the laws that give you the benefits you want. And another thing, what other spieces has a homosexual pairing? None. Most other spieces will have killed off or osterisized the “offender”. I say it is your choice to act that way. Just don’t do it around me. It is the same as if you choose to be a crack head or methhead. I don’t want you to be and I will try to keep you from doing it but, I can not be there all the time. You have to make a choice at some point. You can ignore the word of God and do those things, or change your ways. He will help you if you will let him. You do not have to do it by yourself there are support groups to help. And there are those that have gotten out of it.

    • obiwan

      What other species? The other primates, some canines, some felines for starters. It’s a naturally occuring genetic abnormality of varying degrees. There are homosexuals, transgenders, transexuals,
      hermaphrodites, etc. and all shades in between.
      I’m sure you know at least one masculine female and one effeminate male who are straight. How do you explain them?
      If you really believe in a God then you have to believe that God created all these variations, possibly as a test of your tolerance.
      So far, you’ve failed the test.

  • Robert

    To all the Muslim suicide bomber Jihaddist. News flash! Reliable sources (Do not want to be identified) have confirmed that there is a significant shortage of virgins available. To ease this shortage, Alah has decided to reduce the number of female virgins by 85% and replace them with homosexuals.

    • Curtis S

      Did you ever see the movie Midnight Express? You know, the movie where the Turkish (Muslim) prison guard rapes the American prisoner. I’m sure there are a number of jihadists that will accept your offer of virgin males. As a matter of fact you may have just caused a spike in recruitment.

  • shadow_man

    No matter what the outcome of the Supreme Court decision, this won’t be the end. Gay marriage will inevitably prevail in the future, especially as science progresses and tolerance increases. Many Supreme Court decisions were made in the past, to keep black and other minorities down, but as we saw, in the end, all prejudice and injustices end. This will be no different, as bigotry has yet to win out on any issue.

  • shadow_man

    CLF: The problem is with your facts. By definition, homosexuality is natural, as it occurs in the animal kingdom among thousands of species. Whether or not something is natural though, doesn’t prove it right or wrong. Second, you say it’s a behavior. It seems you don’t know the difference between sex and sexual orientation. Third, you say it’s a perversion, yet fail to prove it’s wrong. Give me one good reason why it’s wrong that i can’t refute easily, and you’ll have a case.

  • Al

    Defining marriage is not within the pervue of the courts. Marriage is defined and the people have continued to support the definition of marriage as between a man and a woman. As opinions go, I don’t agree that being gay or wanting gay rights is a human rights issue. These people want to change societies view of appropriate behavior. People today are tolerant of homosexuals and even, for the most part, giving them access to some of what they want. But trying to define something that is not marriage as marriage is non constructive and a waste of time. Hopefully if they continue to pursue this line, they will end up with less.

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