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Gallup: Majority Of Americans Feel The Founders Would Dislike Modern America

July 8, 2013 by  

Gallup: Majority Of Americans Feel The Founders Would Dislike Modern America
PHOTOS.COM

Leading up to Independence Day, the Gallup polling agency reached out to Americans in an effort to gauge patriotism throughout the Nation. According to the results of a patriotic survey, 71 percent of the Nationโ€™s citizens believe that the signers of the Declaration of Independence would be ashamed of America today.

Gallup asked 3,577 respondents the following question: โ€œOverall, do you think the signers of the Declaration of Independence would be pleased or disappointed by the way the United States has turned out?โ€

The polling agency concluded of the negative majority, โ€œAmericans are now much less likely than they were a decade ago to say the signers of the Declaration of Independence would be pleased with how the country has turned out. This is most likely an outgrowth of Americans’ current level of negativity toward their government, including the record-low level of confidence Americans have in Congress and the significant percentage of Americans who cite dissatisfaction with government as the third most important problem facing the country today.โ€

Region and political affiliation had some bearing on how respondents answered.

For example, only 67 percent of those polled in the East and 66 percent in the West said that the Nationโ€™s Founding Fathers would be disgusted by modern America. But 74 percent of respondents from the South and 74 percent of those in the Midwest were convinced that the Founders would have a negative view of todayโ€™s America.

Eighty-three percent of conservatives said the Founders would be displeased. Thatโ€™s compared to 54 percent of liberals and 68 percent of moderates.

Despite the notion that the Nation has veered from the original intention of those who dedicated their lives to its founding, 85 percent of respondents said that they are proud to be American citizens.

Sam Rolley

Staff writer Sam Rolley began a career in journalism working for a small town newspaper while seeking a B.A. in English. After learning about many of the biases present in most modern newsrooms, Rolley became determined to find a position in journalism that would allow him to combat the unsavory image that the news industry has gained. He is dedicated to seeking the truth and exposing the lies disseminated by the mainstream media at the behest of their corporate masters, special interest groups and information gatekeepers.

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  • Alex

    Our long-dead Floundering Fathers would not be happy at all to see that women were voting, that the slaves had been freed, or that hemp had been outlawed.

    They would also be alarmed at what they would perceive as a dangerous number of ‘Redskins’ that were allowed to live….

    • Don 2

      Alex, go squeeze your zits!

      • Bernie

        Alex is a product of our public education.

      • http://batman-news.com samurai

        D’oh! :-) :-) :-) FOR GOD AND COUNTRY! ํ•˜๋‚˜๋‹˜ํ•˜๊ณ  ๋‚˜๋ผ๋ฅผ ์œ„ํ•ด์„œ!
        You need both love of country and faith in GOD to be a patriot.

    • Vigilant

      Proverbs 26:11: “As a dog returns to its vomit, so fools repeat their folly.”

      Dogs like Alex, Sarvis, and other leftist shills always return to the folly of this kind of argument because it’s all they have, i.e., instead of lauding the Constitutional amendments that corrected unenlightened views, they deride and denigrate the Founders of over 200 years ago.

      The worst part of it is, they do so with just one end in mind: to foment bitterness and hatred against a set of geniuses that gave us a government never before seen in world history, and a Constitution that became a model for the rest of the world.

      • bahona

        you see Alex & Sarvis as “leftist shillls”, I see them as Tea Party Zombies (i.e. I think that Alex & Sarvis are ultra-conservative, which might be the opposite from a “leftist shill”?) Please stop with the name-calling, it confuses me!

        • Nadzieja Batki

          Alex and Sarvis are Leftist Shills just as much as you are.

          • bahona

            Yeah, I figured somebody would call me a name, too. Can we please get past name-calling, or are we all stuck in nursery school, four-eyes?

          • TheOriginalDaveH

            Don’t know how long you’ve been reading the PL comments, bahona, but Alex and Doc Sarvis are indeed leftists. Whether they are shills or not, only they know.

          • Nadzieja Batki

            TODH, the comments of Alex and Doc Sarvis point to them being Leftist Shills since they consistently cheer on the Left. They are in no way taking on the cloak of Devil’s Advocates.

          • vicki

            So lets see. you ask that people stop with the name calling and then name call. Have you looked up the word hypocrite recently?

          • bahona

            exactly! If Nadzieja defines a “leftist shill” as anybody who does not approve of name calling, then how can I be a “leftist shill” if I call people names?
            I still don’t see how asking you folks to lay off the name-calling makes me leftist shill?

          • vicki

            Nagzieja made no such definition. She observed that you and 2 other leftist shills were leftist shills.

          • Nadzieja Batki

            But you are a Leftist Shill and this describes your character as well as your actions. Somebody is not calling you names but telling all what you are, a Shill for the Left.

          • bahona

            You know, I was agreeing with everything that vigilant said until vigilant started calling people names. So, if the fact that I don’t like to call people names means that I’m a “leftist shill”, well now at least I know what that term means: a “leftist shill” is somone who doesn’t use cuss words. So, Nadzieja, if I call you a “[expletive deleted]“, am I still a “leftist shill”?

          • Doc Sarvis

            You forget that the real name of this site is Personal Attacks NOT Personal Liberty.

      • JRR

        There might be a little more to it in some cases. I have read that Obama is paying people to put Marxist comments (which, after all, support how he was brought up). He can afford to do this, because of course, he makes us pay for it.

        It’s certainly not impossible, or even hard to believe, after seeing what he has done in the past.

        Alex and Sarvis will deny this, but they probably deny that Muslims saw peoples’ heads off, too.

  • laura merrone

    Our long-dead Founding Fathers would not be happy at all to see all the foreign wars we were involved in all the time and the change to the welfare state we are in today that leave millions enslaved in poverty because opportunity has basically evaporated. We have become a socialist state. Our Congress does as it pleases and so does our President and courts. Where is the will of the people that made this a republican form of government? Even the last election was problematic because Obama got off with no charges against him and the republicans were clobbered. The Republicans probably could have tried better but the Press was completely lopsided in favor of the Democrats. No wonder so many Americans are ashamed. They are probably frustrated too. I might add I think our founding fathers would be disturbed by gay marriage too. They were very supportive of a Christian world view. They weren’t perfect in everything. We are quick to point out their faults – especially liberals. Not one president we ever had was perfect but I believe God blessed them and our country because they honored God. Now we are so far afield from any Christian principles that I don’t know if God can bless much longer. I’m afraid our welcome is worn out with the Almighty. Only time will tell how much longer we will stay “one nation under God.”

    • Vigilant

      “I might add I think our founding fathers would be disturbed by gay marriage too.”
      Undoubtedly; but they would have left it up to the states to decide.

      • smilee

        They left us with a document that provided for changing it by amendment as we saw fit when we felt it necessary, they left change to the future generations and in 1868 the fourteenth amendment was added saying states could no longer pass laws that did not provide equal protection to all citizens. I think they would be pleased given what led up to the 14th amendment and they were wise enough to trust us with it and they understood life is for the living to decide. they would be supportive of gay marriage as the Constitution supports it in the 14th amendment and is the reason behind the district court;s ruing on prop 8 in CA which is based on the 14th amendment and is the cover now for legal gay marriages in CA. It is only a matter of time until that protection will be ordered for the whole country.

        • Vigilant

          “…[The Founders] would be supportive of gay marriage as the Constitution supports it in the 14th amendment ”

          Uh, two things. First, the Founders were all dead by the time the 14th amendment was ratified, and secondly, you make an egregiously unfounded assumption about the morals of the Founders.

          They fully understood that the Republic would fall in the absence of Christian values. Their writings are replete with this theme, and that’s not to be argued. Unless you have mysteriously channeled the spirits of the Founders, you have neither a basis nor even a tenuous clue that our political leadership through the 20th century would have tolerated it.

          Hell, even at the time of the 14th Amendment, NO ONE would have supported gay marriage. Introduction of any such move in the Congress would have been met with laughter and perhaps even censure.

          One thing’s for sure: the accepted and almost universal Christian morality of the day would NEVER have brooked such an idea.

          • smilee

            I never said any of them were alive when the 14th amendment was ratified, they were alive when they wrote the Constitution that included the rights of future generation,, after their deaths, to make those change so they were in favor of change. My statement was an assumption but no more unfounded than yours and in view of the fact they supported a binding document subject to change by those that lived after them suggests they support the will of future generations even though it might not be to their liking. It was never based on christian values as it was intended to be for all people and that is why I believe that they believed in equality for all (that includes gays) as the long term goal unattainable at the time for cultural reasons that were not christian values or slavery would not have been so ingrained in the culture of the time and therefore left un-addressd on day one.

            I doubt there was polls to assess public opinion in 1868 on gay equality but public opinion did not matter they still passed the amendment and ratified it and that requires equal protection under the laws on all state laws thus by this ratification they supported it even if it was not in the forefront of their minds but that is irrelevant once ratified.

            Re-read your post and view the many assumptions you made and all are unfounded and I’m sure only your wishful thinking.

          • Vigilant

            “”My statement was an assumption but no more unfounded than yours…”

            Absolutely false. Are you even hinting that the US was not under the sway of Christian morality and value systems in the 18th and 19th centuries?

            Homosexuality was STRONGLY condemned from Christian pulpits at that time. To deny that is to change history itself. No smilee, the writings and speeches of the Founders and political leaders are VOLUMINOUS when it comes to Christian morality.

            Your contention that the Founders would have welcomed gay marriage is as ludicrous as your assertion that slavery was unconstitutional until the 13th Amendment.

            “I believe that they believed in equality for all (that includes gays) as the long term goal unattainable at the time for cultural reasons…” Your belief is based on virtually nothing written or spoken by the Founders.

            Very few individuals believed in equality for the slaves. The Constitution left out the Indians, loyalists and slaves. The people who constituted themselves were largely white Christians, period. The states were allowed to define citizenship, and “Jews, Turks and Infidels” were left out of the picture on most states.

            Religious tests were unconstitutional for federal positions, but the states were allowed to, AND DID, apply such tests at state level for some time.

            Learn a little of your American history before you make laughable assumptions about the Founders, whose writings and speeches do not support your wishful thinking.

          • smilee

            MY ORGINAL WORDS: “”My statement was an assumption but no more unfounded than yours…”

            YOUR WORDS:
            Absolutely false. Are you even hinting that the US was not under the sway of Christian morality and value systems in the 18th and 19th centuries?
            a
            MY NEW WORDS: Certainly Christians were present
            and a part of it but not controlling of the culture, their acts make that clear

            YOUR WORDS: Homosexuality was STRONGLY
            condemned from Christian pulpits at that time. To deny that is to change history itself. No smilee, the writings and speeches of the Founders and
            political leaders are VOLUMINOUS when it comes to Christian morality.

            MY NEW WORDS: Never the less when they wrote the constitution they did not base it on Christianity
            and when they added the first amendment they separated the two so their actions and their words were different

            YOUR WORDS: Your contention that the Founders
            would have welcomed gay marriage is as ludicrous as your assertion that slavery awas unconstitutional until the 13th Amendment.

            MY NEW WORDS: I never said they welcomed it
            I said they did nothing to prohibit it in law, slavery was also not addressed in the constitution therefore in cannot be said it was constitutional, we did
            say in the DOI โ€œ

            We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by
            their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.โ€ {NOTEโ€ it says โ€œallโ€ men}

            And in the preamble of the Constitution it says: :

            We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.โ€

            And slavery was not addressed in it so to say it was constitutional is absurd. The supreme court did not address the issue until it rendered the dred scott decision and in it they found black people not to be people but property and therefore not part of โ€œall
            men are created equalโ€ or part of โ€œWe the People in the Constitution in other words it found that blacks were not to be considered human beings under the law and therefore to be treated as animals which are property. The Court could of and should of declared
            them human beings but then the Bill of Rights would have pertained to them too as well. In order to skirt the Constitution they had to find them to be something
            other than human or they would be a part of we the people. Constitutional scholars today mostly viewed this decision as one of the most incorrectly decided cases in our history and of course slavery remained in tact in our culture until the 13th amendment was ratified which clarified this issue beyond what the courts could ignore.โ€

            MY ORGINAL WORDS:”I believe that they believed in equality for all (that includes gays) as the long term goal unattainable at the time for cultural reasons…

            YOUR WORDS: ” Your belief is based on
            virtually nothing written by the Founders.ure is the Contusions

            MY NEW WORDS:
            They wrote the Constitution and never prohibited gay marriage in it

            YOUR WORDS: Very few individuals
            believed in equality for the slaves. The Constitution left out the Indians, loyalists and slaves. The people who constituted themselves were largely white Christians, period. The states were allowed to define citizenship, and “Jews, Turks and Infidels” were left out of the picture on most states.

            MY NEW WORDS: DOI and the CONSTIUTION both
            contradict that unless you consider Indians, loyalists and slaves as not being human and thus not part of we the people in the preamble, the document and the
            culture and practice often were at odds but that does not change what the Constitution says, you assume that if it was practiced then it was constitutional and that is not true..

            YOUR WORDS: Religious tests were unconstitutional for federal positions, but the states were allowed to, AND DID, apply such tests at state level for some
            time.

            MY NEW WORDS: The first amendment applied to the states too but practice might have been different and at odd with the first amendment in some places

            YOUR WORDS: Learn a little of your American history before you make laughable assumptions about the
            Founders, whose writings and speeches do not support your wishful thinking.

            MY NEW WORDS: It is you who knows little about our history and much was said back then as now but what remains and counts is the final draft they left us of the Constitution back then. The same today as an example much was said about Obamacare that
            never ended up being in the actual law and even now it is misquoted, some of this was true in the 18th century too. There never was any government use of taxes to pay for medical in our general welfare until 1965 when Medicare and Medicaid became law and the court addressed that with Obamacare in
            2012 and found it constitutional based on parts of the Constitution that the founding father wrote way back in 1787, 225 years after they wrote it which means they made Obamacare legal way back then but we did
            not use it for that reason until 223 years later. You can find the tax part of Obamacare in Article I, Section 8, clause 1.

          • Vigilant

            God only knows where you’ve received such a skewed and wholly unhistorical body of crapola about our history and the Constitution. You’re so wrong on so many counts that I’ll address only a few.

            “The first amendment applied to the states too…” No it didn’t. It applied to the Federal Government only, ignoramus. What part of “Congress shall make no law” are you blind to?

            “They wrote the Constitution and never prohibited gay marriage in it.” LOL! Nor did they prohibit pederasty, polygamy, adultery, farting in church or punching out your mother in-law. That was left up to the states to decide. The Constitution is not a book of civil and criminal statutes, it is a frame for government of a Republic.

            “DOI and the CONSTIUTION both contradict that unless you consider Indians, loyalists and slaves as not being human and thus not part of we the people in the preamble.” Those categories of people were NOT part of “We the People.” None of them had ANY part in constituting the United States.

            “And slavery was not addressed in it so to say it was constitutional is absurd.”

            You have obviously never read the Constitution with understanding.

            Article I, Section 2 includes the 3/5 Compromise that allowed representation in Congress to include 3/5 of the slave population, even though the slaves had no vote.

            Article I, Section 9 SPECIFICALLY deals with the importation of slaves (the African slave trade) by prohibiting the trade after 1808. It prohibits the trade, NOT the institution.

            Article IV, Section 2 addresses runaway slaves IN PARTICULAR. It was the basis for the Fugitive Slave Law and Roger B. Taney’s correct decision in the Dred Scott Case.

            As I’ve told you before, you can quote NOT ONE Constitutional scholar to support your ridiculous contention that slavery was unconstitutional until the 13th Amendment. On several occasions you’ve been challenged to produce such a legal opinion and YOU HAVE NEVER BEEN ABLE TO FURNISH IT BECAUSE SUCH AN OPINION DOES NOT EXIST.

            This my last word on the subject with you until you quote JUST ONE sourced legal opinion that slavery was illegal in the original Constitution. You’ll NEVER find it.

          • smilee

            God only knows where you’ve received such a skewed and wholly unhistorical body of crapola about our history and the Constitution. You’re so
            wrong on so many counts that I’ll address only a few.

            “The first amendment applied to the states too…” No
            it didn’t. It applied to the Federal Government only, ignoramus. What part of “Congress shall make no law” are you blind to?

            YOU ARE SO WRONG FREEDOM OF SPEECH AND RELIGION AND THE PRESS, AND FREEDOM OF ASSOCIATION APPPLIES TO ALL PEOPLE ANYWHERE IN THE US AND THE STATES CANNOT CREATE A STATE RELGION DENY YOU FREEDOM SPEECH THIS IS A GUARENTREE TO ALL PEOPLE THROUGHOUT THE US IN WHATEVER STATE YOU ARE IN. THE BILL OF RIGHTS WAS THE RIGHTS OF THE PEOPLE

            “They wrote the Constitution and never prohibited gay
            marriage in it.” LOL! Nor did they prohibit pederasty, polygamy, adultery, farting in church or punching out your mother in-law. That was left up to the states to decide. The Constitution is not a book of civil and criminal statutes, it is a frame for government of a Republic.

            YOUR RIGHT BUT WHERE IT DID NOT PROHIBIT IT, THE STATES GET TO MAKE THESE LAWS UNDER THE TENTH AMENDMENT BUT THEY DID NOT PROHIBIT IT AND THAT WAS MY POINT WHICH YOU CHOSE TO SKEW

            “DOI and the CONSTITUTION both contradict that unless you consider Indians, loyalists and slaves as not being human and thus not part of we the people in the preamble.” Those categories of people were NOT part of “We the People.” None of them had ANY part in constituting the United States.

            CONSTITUING, LOL WHERE DID YOU GET THAT WORD? yOU AND i DID NOT PARTICIPQTE EITHER BUT IT STILL COVERS US. THE WORDS OF BOTH THE PREAMBLE OF THE CONSTITUTION AND THE DOI DO NOT SAY NOT TO INCLUDE THEM IN WE THE PEOPLE
            SO THE ONLY CORRECT INTERPRETATION IS NO PERSON WAS NOT INCLUDED. YOU HAVE TO READ THAT INTO IT TO COME UP WITH
            YOUR CONCLUSION AND PEOPLE OF THE DAY DID IN PRACTICE THIS WAS A COMPRISE WITH
            THE TWO SIDES OF THE ISSUE , ONE GOT THE WORDS THE OTHER THE PRACTICE.

            “And slavery was not addressed in it so to say it was constitutional is absurd.”

            You have obviously never read the Constitution with
            understanding. Article I, Section 2 includes the 3/5 Compromise that allowed representation in Congress to include 3/5 of the slave population, even thought
            the slaves had no vote.

            IT ACKNOWLEDGES IT FOR TAXATION PURPOSES AND IT END ITS IMPORTATION IN 1808 BUT IN NO WAY SANCTIONS IT OR PERMITS IT AND YOU IGNORE THE PREAMBLE AND DOI WHICH DOES NOT DIFFERENTIATES BETWEEN BLACK PEOPLE AND OTHER PEOPLE SO ALL PEOPLE ARE RECOGNIZED THERE AS BEING PART OF THE CONSTITUTION, THAT IS WHAT THEY WROTE BUT PEOPLE IGNORED WHAT THEY WROTE BUT THAT DOES NOT CHANGE WHAT THEY WROTE.

            Article I, Section 9 SPECIFICALLY deals with the importation of slaves (the African slave trade) by prohibiting the trade after 1808. It
            prohibits the trade, NOT the institution.

            SEE ABOVE

            Article IV, Section 2 addresses runaway slaves IN PARTICULAR. It was the basis for the Fugitive Slave Law and Roger B. Taney’s correct decision
            in the Dred Scott Case.

            IT WAS NOT CORRECTLY DECIDED AS IT WAS BASED ON DEFINING HIM AS AN ANIMAL AND THUS PROPERTY AND ARTICLE IV, SECTION 2 DEALS WITH PEOPLE CHARGED WITH A CRIME. YOU CANNOT HAVE IT BOTH WAYS HE IS EITHER PROPERTY OR HE IS A HUMAN PERSON CHARGED WITH A CRIME.

            As I’ve told you before, you can quote NOT ONE Constitutional scholar to support your ridiculous contention that slavery was unconstitutional
            until the 13th Amendment. On several occasions you’ve been challenged to produce such a legal opinion and YOU HAVE NEVER BEEN ABLE TO FURNISH IT BECAUSE SUCH AN OPINION DOE NOT EXIST.

            MY POSITION CAME FROM SOME CONSTITUTION SCHOLARS AND WHEN YOU READ WHAT THE CONSTITUTION ACTUALLY SAYS IT MAKES
            SENSE BUT IF YOU INSERT THINGS FROM OUTSIDE THE CONSTITUTION INTO IT IT BECOMES SKEWED., LOOK IT UP

            This my last word on the subject with you until you quote JUST ONE sourced
            legal opinion that slavery was illegal in the original Constitution.

            THERE ARE NO COURT OPINIONS EXCEPT DRED SCOTT, BUT MANY HAVE INTERPRETED IT THIS WAY BASED ON WHAT IT SAYS NOT ON THE ACTUAL PRACTICE OF THE TIME. THE CONSTITUTION WAS OFTEN NOT FOLLOWED ALL THROUGH OUR HISTORY AND MOST OF YOUR CONCLUSIONS ARE BASED ON THINGS
            OTHER THAN THE ACTUAL WORDS. DO NOT HAVE A NAME ON THE TIP OF MY TONGUE BUT IF YOU RESEARCH IT Iโ€™M SURE YOU CAN FIND THIS TAKE ON IT. DO NOT BE SLAZY

            5:16 p.m., Monday
            July 8

          • Vigilant

            “MY POSITION CAME FROM SOME CONSTITUTION SCHOLARS.”

            BULLSH*T. NAME THEM AND QUOTE THEM, UNTIL YOU DO, YOU ARE NOTHING BUT A CRACKPOT. YOU HAVE FAILED THE CHALLENGE YET ANOTHER TIME (HOW MANY TIMES DOES THIS MAKE? PERHAPS 4 OR 5).

            Argue like a man and quit hiding behind a “Constitution scholar” you cannot even name, you irritating little piss ant.

          • smilee

            Its a long time since I researched it and I do not remember the names. We have talked a lot about slaves but understand I’m not your slave, don’t be so lazy do something for yourself this is how i did it go and prove your a man instead of a slave driver who whines like a two year old. ..

          • http://batman-news.com samurai

            Personal attack, arguement to ridicule, forgetfulness, too lazy to cite sources. Yep. Sounds like a 5th columner. Here are some articles to consider.
            http://www.humanevents.com/2013/07/04/july-4-celebrates-a-nation-founded-on-the-right-ideals/
            http://www.redflagnews.com/headlines/the-us-border-is-now-considered-a-constitution-free-zone
            FOR GOD AND COUNTRY! ํ•˜๋‚˜๋‹˜ํ•˜๊ณ  ๋‚˜๋ผ๋ฅผ ์œ„ํ•ด์„œ!
            You need both love of country and faith in GOD to be a patriot. This leaves you out.
            “Faith, mighty faith,the promise sees, And looks to God alone; Laughs at impossibilities, And cries it shall be done.”
            Charles Wesley

      • Nadzieja Batki

        Vigilant, you are fighting a useless battle in trying to reason with Dems/Progs/Leftists.
        If PLD were to do a descriptive compilation of the activities of the “love” activities of the “gays”, the site would be shut down because the “gays” do not want to broadcast what it is they do and as long as they use cutesy words and descriptions people will not fight them.

  • Doc Sarvis

    Most Americans would probably be disgusted that our Founding Fathers enslaved fellow human beings as well.

    • Vigilant

      No, Sarvis, most historically challenged, unthinking progressive Americans would be disgusted. Persons of normal intelligence and common sense understand the following:

      (1) Overlaying the template of modern values on a civilization that existed over 200 years ago is the dirtiest pool imaginable. My own ancestors here in NY owned slaves. Do you expect me to feel a smidgeon of guilt over that? If you do, you are balmy.

      (2) Your stereotype fails in light of real history. Adams and Franklin, two of the most famous Founders, were staunchly anti-slavery.

      (3) Northern Founders understood that the Constitution was doomed without the signatures of the Southern states. The 3/5 Compromise and ban on importation of slaves after 1808 were compromises that helped ensure ratification of the new Constitution. Not perfect, but a beginning.

      (4) Even southern delegates knew that slavery was not perpetual. Article V of the Constitution was formalized because, among other things, the Founders knew that an enlightened populace would eventually outlaw the institution.

      (5) Idiots of your ilk fault the Founders for not creating a perfect government. What fantasy world do you live in? They laid the foundation never before advanced in history: sovereignty of the individual. And in doing do, they made possible the alteration of laws through ratification of amendments by enlightened individuals.

      C’mon, let’s hear your excoriation of Muslims, Native Americans and Africans for engaging in the practice of trading in human flesh at the same period of history of which you speak.

      • Doc Sarvis

        Thank you. I’ve been waiting for your number 5. So the Constitution is a living document and grows with the country/times. Great point.
        Otherwise, I never meant to imply that all of the Founding Fathers were slave keepers but A LOT were.

        • Vigilant

          No Sarvis, you don’t get off that easily. Read the last sentence of my point 5. “…they made possible the alteration of laws through ratification of amendments by enlightened individuals.”

          THAT is the meaning of the Constitution as a living document, not the statist view, and I assume it’s your view as well, that the Constitution can be sidestepped though the deliberation of activist judges who WRITE law with their decisions, the unconscionable fiats of regulatory agencies and executive orders, failures of the Executive Branch to enforce or only selectively enforce Constitutional law, and bribing states to undertake extraConstitutional programs via power of the purse.

          Indeed, I have no doubt that your interpretation of “living document” is severely at odds with mine (and the Founders).

        • http://batman-news.com samurai

          No the Constitution is not a living document. Where have you been placing your head? FOR GOD AND COUNTRY! ํ•˜๋‚˜๋‹˜ํ•˜๊ณ  ๋‚˜๋ผ๋ฅผ ์œ„ํ•ด์„œ!
          You need both love of country and faith in GOD to be a patriot. This leaves you out.

          • Smilee

            How would a dead document change 27 times over 200 years if it was not living. Do you also believe your nose will keep on growing after you die???????????

      • JRR

        Oh, now, you know the “progressives” don’t mind the 270 million murders and the 185 million people enslaved by the Muslims during the illustrious history of Islam!

        • Vigilant

          You may be right about that.

        • Scifidave

          Now you’re just talking stupid, JRR. Progressives are just as concerned about slavery and murder in the Islamic world as anyone else.

          • vicki

            evidence?

          • Vigilant

            Quite a revelation. IF they are so concerned, they might take time out of their busy schedules to advance those sentiments. They are too occupied with bashing the Founders and other non-progressives to express this ostensible outrage.

            Until now, I’ve NEVER heard of progressive displeasure with the practices of the Muslim world. It’s ALWAYS the Conservatives who draw attention to these barbarities.

          • Nadzieja Batki

            The Proggies definition of “concern” will not mean what you mean. The Dems/Progs/Leftists do not talk the same language as Conservatives or Libertarians so there is no communication with them.

        • http://batman-news.com samurai

          Historically accurate. Keep up the good fight fellow patriot. Never mind scifidave as he is only here to get paid for his trolling. FOR GOD AND COUNTRY! ํ•˜๋‚˜๋‹˜ํ•˜๊ณ  ๋‚˜๋ผ๋ฅผ ์œ„ํ•ด์„œ!
          You need both love of country and faith in GOD to be a patriot.
          “No people can be bound to acknowledge and adore the Invisible Hand which conducts the affairs of men more than the people of the United States.”
          George Washington

    • TheOriginalDaveH

      Most Americans ARE disgusted that they are now slaves to the Government.

  • justaskin

    I would imagine that the same goes for any nation on the Planet, unfortunately. Seems to indicate that the world population and it’s chosen ones have unilaterally screwed up. It is wise to remember that the people are there to make sure that their chosen leaders perform to a mandate. This has not been the case so exactly who is to blame? Them or us?

  • Scifidave

    Our nation has gone through enormous change, few if any of which the Founders foresaw. We can’t go back, so saying we must is just pointless rhetoric.

    However it’s also clear that the capitalists are winning the war against American workers and that must – has to – change. We can fix it at the voting booth, but we must first end the D and R pony show we’ve all been sucked into. On the surface there appears to be enormous differences between the two primary parties, but when all the dust settles what we get out of Congress seems unrelated to which party is in control and heavily favors the big players, that not-so-secret cadre of extremely wealthy who dictate what they want from Congress.

    We must vote the money out of politics and get back to a citizen’s legislature, as the Founders envisioned.

    • TheOriginalDaveH

      Government has always been about a relative handful of non-producers taking advantage of the rest of the people. The only way to control it is to shrink it dramatically, get it out of our marketplace, and put most functions of Government back under local control where the citizens can actually influence the representatives.

      • Scifidave

        The ‘shrink the government’ zealots play right into the hands of the capitalists who want far less regulation. We’ve seen how well that’s worked, now haven’t we?

        Smaller government isn’t the answer. Smarter government with a strong bias for the middle class is.

        • momo

          Smarter government is a joke. The Democrats want to give welfare to everybody and the Republicans want to go to war with everybody. As for regulation, we got s sh!t load, Obamacare, war on coal just to name a few. I agree there’s no difference between the R’s and the D’s, but until everybody realizes that, nothing is going to change.

          • Jeff

            Logically, your post makes no sense. Ds and Rs are the same even though Ds want everyone on welfare and Rs want to go to war with everyone? How are those the same (before we even get to the idiocy of your statements)?

        • vicki

          Of course smaller government is the answer.

          And here is why:

          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N4r0VUybeXY

        • Vigilant

          “Smarter government with a strong bias for the middle class is.”

          BIAS for the middle class? Read the Declaration and Constitution, sonny.

          As for ‘shrink the government’ zealots, you’re taking on the combined wisdom of the Founders who NEVER envisioned or advocated the excesses and overreach of our current government. They did their level best to get away from that in one of those quirks of history called the American Revolution.

        • Nadzieja Batki

          You can’t seem to get out of the Collectivist mindset and government control. Why must government show bias for the middle class? Anything government favors it soon controls and manipulates to its advantage.

    • vicki

      SciFiDave writes:

      However it’s also clear that the capitalists are winning the war against American workers and that must – has to – change.

      What war would this be?

      but we must first end the D and R pony show we’ve all been sucked into.

      Indeed. The whole left vs right paradigm needs to go away. The proper paradigm is 100% vs limited vs 0% government.

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N4r0VUybeXY

      that not-so-secret cadre of extremely wealthy who dictate what they want from Congress.

      And how does this mysterious but not so mysterious group do that?

      • Pissed off Socialist

        The war Scifidave refers to is the class warfare conducted by the wealthy against the global working class.

        • http://batman-news.com samurai

          Care to cite a source on this going on in America? Take your socialist/commie views and take a hike. Better dead than red. FOR GOD AND COUNTRY! ํ•˜๋‚˜๋‹˜ํ•˜๊ณ  ๋‚˜๋ผ๋ฅผ ์œ„ํ•ด์„œ!
          You need both love of country and faith in GOD to be a patriot. This leaves you out.

        • vicki

          which wealthy and what war? What are the weapons? So much you have neglected to explain. Oh wait do you mean the proletariat?

          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proletariat

      • Scifidave

        Money buys power. It’s as simple as that. Examples abound.

        Scott Walker got what he wanted in Wisconsin because neocon outsiders out spent the Democrats 8 to 1.

        Congress does the bidding of the big players because Congressmen are smart enough to know who bought them, and it sure isn’t the working class.

  • Robbie

    Of course the Founders would be displeased. They were basically a bunch of white British who were land owners. When they said “all men are created equal” the definition of “man” was pretty narrow and was basically a reflection of themselves.

    • Vigilant

      “White British?” Tut, tut, you forgot the usual shopworn condemnation: “Dead white European males.”

      Dead, as if the wisdom of the ancients becomes passรฉ at the moment of their deaths.

      White, as if the content of a man’s character takes a back seat to the color of his skin.

      European, as if the most advanced ideals of individual sovereignty in the world at that time were not European but African, Asian or Middle Eastern.

      Males, as if the most learned people in the world at that time were not this congress of well-intentioned males.

      Tell us, Robbie, should we have brought in Muslin caliphs to write a Constitution with sharia law? Or would you have preferred the Pope and some assorted monarchs to frame our system of government?

      And check your history. They were British subjects but few were born in England. As for land owners, you betchya! Most Americans could neither read nor write. Only the true Aristocracy had the leisure time or wherewithal to read AND CARE about improving the world with the radically new idea that the individual has not only innate dignity but RIGHTS under Natural Law to life, liberty and property.

      Get a clue, Robbie. You don’t know diddly about how and why our nation was born.

      • Robbie

        We are not at cross purposes. I was simply pointing out that the Founders had a very different worldview than would be common today.

        • Vigilant

          Somehow I doubt your veracity. Two days ago you said, “The Founders were not only progressives but they were REVOLUTIONARIES! Or did you forget that it’s called the REVOLUTIONARY WAR or the AMERICAN REVOLUTION. Do those terms ring a bell at all? If the Founders had been CONSERVATIVE the U.S. would still be a colony of Great Britain.”

          Obviously, you are deficient when it comes to understanding the meaning of the word “progressive,” a word that was not even in use at the time of our nation’s birth.

          The Founders were radical liberals in the classic sense of the term. The CLOSEST political philosophy of today is Conservatism with a Libertarian flavor. Times have changed, and the political monikers as well.

          Teddy Roosevelt was the guilty party when he said words to the effect that if the Constitution doesn’t specifically restrict the Feds from doing something, then they can do it. Woodrow Wilson ran with that ball, and the progressives from the last half of the 20th century put it on steroids. Obama’s now trying to seal the deal with complete domination of the individual in this country under the umbrella of collectivism.

          In short, the progressives of today are diametrically opposed to the classical liberalism of the Founders.

        • Nadzieja Batki

          Then you should say what you mean and mean what you say. You backpedaled as fast as you could because Vigilant made question of your comment.
          As to worldviews, they don’t change and right is right and wrong is wrong for all time.

          • Robbie

            I DID say what I meant. Some folks here are overly confrontational shall we say.

            Can you name one thing that is right for all time and one that is wrong for all time? I’m curious.

          • vicki

            Robbie writes:

            Can you name one thing that is right for all time and one that is wrong for all time? I’m curious.

            You may start your quest and find more than one thing that is right for all time by reading a document whose title is:

            The Declaration of Independence.
            http://www.archives.gov/exhibits/charters/declaration_transcript.html

          • Robbie

            All men are created equal? That’s true for all time? It sounds good to us but the problem there is defining what a man is. Even the Founders did not believe that all men – as WE define the word – were equal because anyone who was not white was not defined as a man. (Of course women were not part of it and if you did not own land forget, not covered). And when you are a slave owner – as a number of the Founders were – it is not likely that you allow your human property to have liberty and to pursue happiness! Although they did allow them life so maybe one out of three ain’t bad.

          • vicki

            You asked for something that is true for all time. You were given multiple examples. The question is will you deny the truth for all the time left to you?

          • http://batman-news.com samurai

            They believed all men were equal because we are all equal in the eyes of God. Sheesh! Don’t you know that? You say you have a degree in history and a masters in education? Here is an article about your ilk.
            http://www.politicaloutcast.com/2013/07/piers-morgan-if-only-america-had-lost-war-for-independence/
            That should go along with you Canadians. FOR GOD AND COUNTRY! ํ•˜๋‚˜๋‹˜ํ•˜๊ณ  ๋‚˜๋ผ๋ฅผ ์œ„ํ•ด์„œ!
            You need both love of country and faith in GOD to be a patriot.
            “Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, religion (Christianity) and morality are indispensable supports. In vain would that man claim the tribute of patriotism who should labor to subvert these great pillars of human happiness – these finest props of the duties of men and citizens.”
            George Washington
            Farewell Address 1796

          • Robbie

            Seeing as I do not believe in god (in fact there is no god) I could hardly know that “god” has us all being equal. In fact when I look around the world and even within our own western society I clearly see great INEQUALITY.

          • http://batman-news.com samurai

            First, stop lying about there being no God. You constantly show your ignorance by doing so. Second, we are all equal in the eyes of God, because we are all his children. He rewards and punishes equally, regardless of race, gender, or nationality. Ergo, equal. FOR GOD AND COUNTRY! ํ•˜๋‚˜๋‹˜ํ•˜๊ณ  ๋‚˜๋ผ๋ฅผ ์œ„ํ•ด์„œ!
            You need both love of country and faith in GOD to be a patriot. This leaves you out.
            “The fool hast said there is no God within his own heart.”
            Psalms 14:1
            Psalms 53:1

          • Pissed off socialist

            First of all YOU are the one showing ignorance by arrogantly dismissing his personal beliefs on religion. Second if they truly believed that ” all men are created equal ” then they would have freed the slaves RIGHT THEN AND THERE! But they didn’t because the those who believed that they had a chance for a social revolution were gradually pushed out by conservatives like Washington.

          • http://batman-news.com samurai

            We are all equal in the eyes of God, regardless of our station in this life. His beliefs on religion are false and you know how it is, “Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor.” Get the point, kang? The rest is nothing but an unsubstantiated rant and to try to answer it would make me look as ignorant as you. Speaking of struggle, nothing you know about, try telling that to people in Iraq and Afghanistan. I did. Ooops! No nads to serve? Another traitor and coward from the 5th column. FOR GOD AND COUNTRY! ํ•˜๋‚˜๋‹˜ํ•˜๊ณ  ๋‚˜๋ผ๋ฅผ ์œ„ํ•ด์„œ!
            You need both love of country and faith in GOD to be a patriot. This leaves you out.

          • Smilee

            Are you then saying then that includes all liberals, gays and abortionists??????????

          • Robbie

            It’s hard to debate with mental illness.

          • smilee

            Your so brave, you said out load what I’ve always believed about him but until was afraid to say so.

          • smilee

            Don’t you know the difference between the eyes of God and the eyes of Man. Man said that then turned right around and practiced the opposite at the time but the words become cast in concrete and over time later generations corrected a lot of their practices. Ask any woman, Black or Indian today and then look at their histories and you to will see the truth and be enlightened, provided you open your closed mind first

        • TheOriginalDaveH

          And you know that how, Robbie?
          From what I’ve read, they were mostly wiser than the average person today.
          Read this to get a better picture of the eclectic nature of the colonists:
          http://library.mises.org/books/Murray%20N%20Rothbard/Conceived%20in%20Liberty_Vol_2.pdf

          • Robbie

            Because the Founders lived around 250 years ago.

          • TheOriginalDaveH

            And?

          • Robbie

            And nothing. I was answering your question.

          • http://batman-news.com samurai

            Here is an article about independence.
            http://www.joeforamerica.com/2013/07/independence/
            Here is something that would “P” our Christian founding fathers off.
            http://www.victoriajackson.com/9232/god-cries-this-fourth-of-july
            Here is an article in which our Christian founding fathers would agree with that islam is un-American.
            http://www.clashdaily.com/2013/07/just-say-it-islam-is-unamerican/
            These are just some good examples of what our Christian founding fathers would be against, unlike the libturds, progturds, and other 5th columners of today support. They also believed in a lot smaller government. FOR GOD AND COUNTRY! ํ•˜๋‚˜๋‹˜ํ•˜๊ณ  ๋‚˜๋ผ๋ฅผ ์œ„ํ•ด์„œ!
            You need both love of country and faith in GOD to be a patriot.
            “The hand of Providence (GOD) has been so conspicuous in all this that he must be worse than an infidel that lacks faith, and more than wicked, that has not gratitude enough to acknowledge his obligations.”
            George Washington

          • smilee

            You got to stop reading all that propaganda so you can see the truth

          • http://batman-news.com samurai

            So you are saying they wouldn’t care about people’s God-given rights as are written in the 1st and 3rd Amendments being violated? I think you just need to roll over, kiss your boyfriend, and go back to sleep. FOR GOD AND COUNTRY! ํ•˜๋‚˜๋‹˜ํ•˜๊ณ  ๋‚˜๋ผ๋ฅผ ์œ„ํ•ด์„œ!
            You need both love of country and faith in GOD to be a patriot.
            “The very atmosphere of firearms anywhere and everywhere restrains evil interference – they deserve a place of honor with all that is good.”
            George Washington

          • smilee

            Not my words, yours. Like I said you been spinning to long and you have become mixed up

          • http://batman-news.com samurai

            Nice try at duck and cover, but you have failed. I asked questions about you false assurtions. Ooops! I guess you cannot answer my questions. I guess you don’t really know that much about our Constitution and Christian founding. What else is new. Alwaya talk the talk, but you never walk the walk. FOR GOD AND COUNTRY! ํ•˜๋‚˜๋‹˜ํ•˜๊ณ  ๋‚˜๋ผ๋ฅผ ์œ„ํ•ด์„œ!
            You need both love of country and faith in GOD to be a patriot. This leaves you out.
            “It is impossible to rightly govern the world without God and the Bible.”
            George Washington

          • smilee

            Only in your simple brain!!!

          • Pissed off socialist

            Rights are not given by God they are won through struggle and sacrifice.

          • http://batman-news.com samurai

            You are part right, but the rights that are written in the first 10 Amendments are God-given rights. If you say the Constitution gives them to us, then you say that government gives them to us and they can take them away from us throught the legislative process. But if God gives them to us, only He, not the government, can take them away from us. I suggest you go back and study more about our Christian founding fathers and our founding documents and learn. FOR GOD AND COUNTRY! ํ•˜๋‚˜๋‹˜ํ•˜๊ณ  ๋‚˜๋ผ๋ฅผ ์œ„ํ•ด์„œ!
            You need both love of country and faith in GOD to be a patriot. This leaves you out.

          • Pissed off socialist

            The constitution does give us our rights. it is able to do so because the Americans won the Revolutionary War which they won due to 7 years of battle struggle, blood, sweat and tears and because the premier power in this world is the will of the masses.

          • Robbie

            The Founders created the American form of government.

          • http://batman-news.com samurai

            Based on Christian principles, Biblical law, our laws based on the 10 Commandments, and a deep, rich belief in nature and nature’s God. FOR GOD AND COUNTRY! ํ•˜๋‚˜๋‹˜ํ•˜๊ณ  ๋‚˜๋ผ๋ฅผ ์œ„ํ•ด์„œ!
            You need both love of country and faith in GOD to be a patriot. This leaves you out.
            “Respect your country always. Respect your government, when they earn it.”
            Samuel Clemons

          • Robbie

            Not a sufficient proof. Sorry. It’s like saying there IS an Annubis and a Ra and a Hathor because the ancient Egyptian Book of the Dead says there is.

        • http://batman-news.com samurai

          Here is a video that our Christian founding fathers would support.
          http://www.godfatherpolitics.com/11605/south-dakota-becomes-first-state-to-allow-armed-teachers/
          They would probably insist on the enforcing of the 3rd Amendment.
          http://www.godfatherpolitics.com/11599/police-prove-third-amendment-still-needed-by-americans/
          FOR GOD AND COUNTRY! ํ•˜๋‚˜๋‹˜ํ•˜๊ณ  ๋‚˜๋ผ๋ฅผ ์œ„ํ•ด์„œ!
          You need both love of country and faith in GOD to be a patriot.
          “The blessing and protection of Heaven are at all times necessary but especially so in times of public distress and danger. The General hopes and trusts that every officer and man will endeavor to live and act as becomes a Christian soldier, defending the dearest rights and liberties of his country.”
          George Washington
          1st President of the U.S.
          Founding father
          Commander of the Continental Armies
          “Father of our country”
          Devout Christian

    • vicki

      Robbie writes:

      They were basically a bunch of white British

      The race card

      who were land owners.

      The anti-wealth card (similar to the class card)

    • http://batman-news.com samurai

      No response due to lack of intellectual content and lack of knowledge of our history. FOR GOD AND COUNTRY! ํ•˜๋‚˜๋‹˜ํ•˜๊ณ  ๋‚˜๋ผ๋ฅผ ์œ„ํ•ด์„œ!

      You need both love of country and faith in GOD to be a patriot.
      “A patriot must be a religious man.”
      Thomas Jefferson
      3rd President of the U.S.
      Signer of the Declaration of Independence
      Orthodox Christian

      • Robbie

        Oh come on. I wouldn’t say you have a complete lack of knowledge. Don’t be that hard on yourself. P.S.: There is no god.

        • http://batman-news.com samurai

          First, there is a GOD. The rest are just personal attacks and arguement to ridicule. Sure sign of the less intelligent mind. FOR GOD AND COUNTRY! ํ•˜๋‚˜๋‹˜ํ•˜๊ณ  ๋‚˜๋ผ๋ฅผ ์œ„ํ•ด์„œ!
          You need both love of country and faith in GOD to be a patriot. This leaves you out.
          “The problem with our liberal friends is not that they are ignorant, just that they know so much that isn’t so.”
          Ronald Reagan
          40th President of the U.S.

          • Pissed off socialist

            Prove there is a GOD. Quoting the bible does not count.

          • http://batman-news.com samurai

            I’ll take up your challenge, but first you must prove there is no God. No science books or atheist works. What proof and evidence can you provide that shows atheism to be accurate and correct? You can’t. FOR GOD AND COUNTRY! ํ•˜๋‚˜๋‹˜ํ•˜๊ณ  ๋‚˜๋ผ๋ฅผ ์œ„ํ•ด์„œ!
            You need both love of country and faith in GOD to be a patriot. This leaves you out.

          • Robbie

            The onus is upon those who believe to try to prove the existence of god. It is not possible to prove a negative; it is not possible to prove that something that does not exist does not exist. So, seeing as you think there’s something out there or whatever go ahead and hand over the proof. Until then there’s just nothing to say.

          • Don 2

            Robbie, the onus is on you to prove that you’re not an idiot. All existing evidence says that you are.

          • Robbie

            Thanks so much for your comment, Don, but upon reflection the fact is that your comment does not add anything to the challenge that Samurai has which is to prove that god exists. If you can help him in any kind of intelligent way that would be helpful albeit it along shot.

          • Pissed off socialist

            In the bible there is a story where Jesus says all you have to do is pray and you all by yourself can move a mountain. Countless more stories insist that all you have to do is pray and God will give you whatever you ask for, if this is true then explain this, why has your God never given a amputee their limb back?

    • Nadzieja Batki

      Well, it was those whites who birthed a great nation and someone had to have the Protestant Work Ethic to make a go of this nation.

    • Don 2

      These men were hunted, family members were tortured, and some lost all their wealth as a result of signing the Declaration. “Weird Al” Yankovic must have had you in mind with ‘Canadian Idiot.’

      • Robbie

        Don: One wonders if it really necessary for you to throw around insults in your postings. If you have nothing intelligent to say it would be better to simply say nothing. Insults makes readers feel that you have nothing better to say and that you are simply frustrated when it comes to expressing complicated matter (both of which are true).

        • Don 2

          Actually, my first sentence, “These men were hunted, family members were tortured, and some lost all their wealth as a result of signing the Declaration.” was a response to your lack of intelligence, and insult to America’s Founding Father’s, by you, a foreigner.
          Regarding insults, it is clearly obvious that the majority of your posts are intended as insults to both Americans, and in particular, Republicans and Conservatives. I’ll refer you to your recent ‘Jay Leno ratings’ comments in Ben Crystal’s July 9, 2013 article, “2016: The Question And Answer” as a most recent example. However, at the same time, I must also thank you for the opportunity that you gave me there to “stick it in your face” regarding your posting. It was priceless! But then, you frequently provide such opportunities by simply opening your mouth.
          Bottom line, you want to insult us, but get all uppity and indignant when turn around becomes fair play. Well, Robbie, get use to it! I have no illusions when it comes to progressives, Democrats, or you. All must be defeated.

          • Robbie

            You know what? You are kind of correct but let’s face it; this forum is a kind of pissing contest. Keep up the good work (but you’ll really have to work hard to beat the Dems anytime soon). Cheers.

  • JRR

    You should probably show a picture of a Bald Eagle that has been shot, since just months ago, Obama signed an Executive Order allowing them to be hunted.

  • smilee

    The Constitution of the United States

    Preamble

    We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

    I think they would be proud as over the years we have done much to make a more perfect union, slavery is gone, women have many more rights and can vote, it took a long time after the end of slavery for black people to gain many of their rights and our system of government still works albeit not as smooth as some times past but far better than the years leading up to the civil war and the civil war which was our lowest ebb but we survived with their Constitution still in tact and it is still in tact and they originally were not certain we could over time do that but we have and those today whom want to revert to strong states rights like before the civil war which resulted in that war and are our biggest concern at present and the reason so many now in the US congress want to render the Congress impotent but that will sometime pass and the Constitution will still be in tact. Nobody has figures out as yet how to suspend it, isn’t that great. Egypt has suspended theirs after only a little over a year and ours never has and is 237 years old. We will survive despite effort s of forces today who want otherwise,

    • TheOriginalDaveH

      Slavery is gone through no fault of Government. If not for the war measures taken by Lincoln to keep the South from getting aid from the British, we probably would have had slavery for much longer:
      “Thomas DiLorenzo calls attention to a vital fact that demolishes the popular view that one of Lincoln’s primary motives for opposing secession in 1861 was his distaste for slavery. Precisely the opposite was the case. It is well known that, in an effort to promote compromise, a constitutional amendment was proposed in Congress that forever forbade interference with slavery in states where it already existed. Lincoln referred to the proposal, the Corwin Amendment, in his First Inaugural, stating that he was not opposed to the amendment, since it merely made explicit the existing constitutional arrangement regarding slavery. Of course, Lincoln was here characteristically mendacious; nothing in the constitution prior to the amendment prohibited amendments to end slavery”.
      http://mises.org/misesreview_detail.aspx?control=312

      • smilee

        Lincoln”s primary goal was to reunite the union, getting rid of slavery was not top priority for him and initially he did not pursue that or had plans to and that changed over time and in the end he played a major role in twisting congress’s arm to pass the 13th amendment and shortly after accepted the south’s unconditional surrender. The fact remains regardless of why or if, that the south was militarily defeated.

        • http://batman-news.com samurai

          Have we forgotten that Lincoln was dead befoe the 13th Amendment became legislation? Though it is true that the preservation of the Union was his top priority, he never freed a single slave. FOR GOD AND COUNTRY! ํ•˜๋‚˜๋‹˜ํ•˜๊ณ  ๋‚˜๋ผ๋ฅผ ์œ„ํ•ด์„œ!
          You need both love of country and faith in GOD to be a patriot.
          “A true Christian is the true citizen.”
          Theodore Roosevelt

          • smilee

            It was passed by congress before he died and he was a major player in that but he was killed before it was ratified. Without his input the 13th never would have passed and no slave would have been freed so he did have a major role in freeing the slaves and without him it is doubtful it would have happened.

    • TheOriginalDaveH

      Smilee says — “but we survived with their Constitution still in tact”.
      The Constitution may still be intact, but the Government has long ago quit obeying its provisions.
      Those who want to get a better idea of what our Founders were like should read this long but very interesting book by Murray Rothbard:
      http://library.mises.org/books/Murray%20N%20Rothbard/Conceived%20in%20Liberty_Vol_2.pdf

      • smilee

        There has never been a time the government fully obeyed the Constitution most times very similar to today.

        • http://batman-news.com samurai

          Care to cite a source on this? FOR GOD AND COUNTRY! ํ•˜๋‚˜๋‹˜ํ•˜๊ณ  ๋‚˜๋ผ๋ฅผ ์œ„ํ•ด์„œ!
          You need both love of country and faith in GOD to be a patriot.
          “Whatever makes men good Christians, makes them good citizens.”
          Daniel Webster
          American Statesman
          “Defender of the Constitution”
          Devout Christian

          • smilee

            I am not your slave do not be so lazy and quit whining like a two year old.

          • http://batman-news.com samurai

            The personal attack and an arguement to ridicule. FOR GOD AND COUNTRY! ํ•˜๋‚˜๋‹˜ํ•˜๊ณ  ๋‚˜๋ผ๋ฅผ ์œ„ํ•ด์„œ!
            You need both love of country and faith in GOD to be a patriot.
            “I do recommend and assign Thursday to be devoted by the people to the service of that great and glorious Being (GOD) who is the beneficent author of all good…that we may then all unite in rendering unto Him our sincere and humble thanks for His kind care and protection of the people of this country.”
            George Washington
            October 03, 1789

    • http://batman-news.com samurai

      They may not have figured out how to suspend it, but it has gotten around it. Bans on law abiding citizens owning firearms, Obama bin Laden Care, NDAA, The Patriot Act, The Federal Reserve, foreign troops on our soil, abortions (which were abhorred by our Christian founders), gay marriage (which they went by the Biblical teachings dealing with gays), our government supporting terrorists through Egypt as Obama bin Laden is doing, purposely miquoting our founding documents, our government waging a war against Christians in the military and on the street, some fools saying you can’t pray in public, but they can do all this perverted things while trying to wrap it up in the flag and claiming it to be their rights, gays attacking ministers in Seattle for preaching the truth about their perversion and it leading them to hell, NARAL, NOW, unplanned parenthood, infanticide according to Margaret Sanger, etc., etc., etc., and there are many more things that they would not be proud of. I remember rbrooks making this same speech on a prior thread. Are you the same person? I think so, since the posting is the same word for word. Sounds like Kang has been caught in another lie. I’ll be expecting him to attempt the old duck and cover. FOR GOD AND COUNTRY! ํ•˜๋‚˜๋‹˜ํ•˜๊ณ  ๋‚˜๋ผ๋ฅผ ์œ„ํ•ด์„œ!
      You need both love of country and faith in GOD to be a patriot.
      “Resistance to tyrants is obedience to God.”
      Benjamin Franklin
      Founding father
      Devout Christian

      • smilee

        Your spinning so fast now your going to get dizzy, few are as stupid as you. Grow up

        • http://batman-news.com samurai

          The personal attack. Classic 5th column strategy. And arguement to ridicule. Just sure signs of the less intelligent mind. I guess that you couldn’t come up with any facts to prove me wrong, so I guess that the troops have overrun your position and you are running away with your tail between your legs. Grow up? We won’t go there. Here is something that our Christian founding fathers would be dead set against, but your ilk (FFRF, etc.) are in favor of.
          http://www.radio.foxnews.com/toddstarnes/top-stories/preacher-arrested-for-calling-homosexuality-a-sin.html
          Just another fine example of you and your ilk, traitors and cowards all. FOR GOD AND COUNTRY! ํ•˜๋‚˜๋‹˜ํ•˜๊ณ  ๋‚˜๋ผ๋ฅผ ์œ„ํ•ด์„œ!
          You need both love of country and faith in GOD to be a patriot.
          “”Let us with caution indulge the supposition that morality can be maintained without religion (Christianity). Reason and experience both forbid us to expect that national morality can prevail in the exclusion of religious principle.”
          George Washington

          • smilee

            I’ll pray you will be normal when, that is if, you grow up.

          • http://batman-news.com samurai

            The personal attack and arguement to ridicule. All the items that I’ve posted would not be supported by our Christian founding fathers and you cannot prove otherwise. Just accept your spanking, go hime, and get off the thread. We don’t need a person that just spins lies, innuendo, rhetoric, and hate on this site. FOR GOD AND COUNTRY! ํ•˜๋‚˜๋‹˜ํ•˜๊ณ  ๋‚˜๋ผ๋ฅผ ์œ„ํ•ด์„œ!
            You need both love of country and faith in GOD to be a patriot. This leaves you out.
            “If we ever forget that we are One Nation Under God, then we will be a nation gone under.”
            Ronald Reagan
            40th President of the U.S.

      • Pissed off socialist.

        And yet the bible itself says that rebellion is a sign of demonic possession.

        • http://batman-news.com samurai

          If you rebel against God, yes. If you rebel against a tyrant, no. Even Benjamin Franklin said, “Resistance to tyrants is obedience to GOD.” Nice try at misdirection, but you have failed miserably kang. FOR GOD AND COUNTRY! ํ•˜๋‚˜๋‹˜ํ•˜๊ณ  ๋‚˜๋ผ๋ฅผ ์œ„ํ•ด์„œ!
          You need both love of country and faith in GOD to be a patriot. This leaves you out.

          • Pissed off socialist

            I was merely quoting your bible not trying to misdirect anyone. not everyone who disagrees with you is some “false shepherd ”

            P.S you do not own exclusive rights to the word patriot either.

  • Raeder

    I have been following the discussion between the two main proponents in this dialogue. It should go without saying that the founders would be disgusted at the current state of our nation! The founders were all men of achievement and principle. Never in history have such a group of men assembled at one time! You are, however, leaving out one very important individual! Everyone seems to bypass George Washington when talk of the birth of our nation is discussed. Hell, he was the guardian of our fortunes for 8 long and trying years!!! Washingto was the one man that all of the founders begged to take the job of running the new nation for; he was the ONLY man that everyone trusted to be fair and impartial! I have tried to read his writings for years, and it is like trying to read Shakespeare! You begin to fall in love with the grammatical structure of his writings, and you forget what he was talking about. People don’t write like that any more!!! He was considered the dummest of the founding fathers and, if you ask me; they must have been an incredible amalgamation of intellects! He was the first to free his slaves, for he said that the practice was immoral and contrary to all of the principles that the revolution was fought iver! He took great criticism from his contemporaries, but he held firm. His honor was beyond question!!! All were agreed that the constitution was the best document that could be produced at the time and; there was considerable opposition to it. Eventually, the logic of agreeing to it became apparent when the alternative of perpetual discord and eventual retreat backward became apparent. Alexander Hamilton, James Madison and John Jay would all be disgusted! The Federalist Papers were an exhaustive essay on the evils of “faction” and “self-interest” as enemies of liberty! What we have today are the results of too long allowing these factions to foster within our system. You can thank your buddy Jefferson for this! He was the founder of the most pernicious faction of all time, the Democratic Party! Without all of the slopeds to whom they hand out checks, they could never even get elected as dog catchers!!! My greatest hope is that Hillary will run in 2016. She should be cannon fodder for the GOP, going all of the way back to Vince Foster, whom I still think she had murdered!!! The whole current situation stinks of ten day old fish, and the liberal media are in the back pockets of the democrats! God bless Fox News Channel for their stand against these fiends! The second one is not far away people!!! This one will be like 1789, where no distinctions will be made as to which side you are on. You do NOT want that to happen! Lord, help us!!!

    • Scifidave

      You started off making sense then deteriorated into partisan ass-speak.

      Sad that otherwise intelligent people find Fox News as factual. Ever bother to use FactCheck.org? Apparently not.

      As to the liberal media – who owns most of it? Neocons, not liberals. Get your facts straight.

  • chrisnj

    The founders knew the tendencies of governments and of men, and they tried their best to craft a construct that would provide checks and balances to those tendencies.

    What we have are their worst fears come to be realized, in spite of their best efforts.

    To their credit, it took the better part of 200 years for the monarchists (now known as liberals) to undermine that which they built and millions have defended with sweat and blood.

    In spite to the best efforts of the pigs to re-write the rights written on the barn wall, we are not dumb animals however.

    We can recover what has been lost (and too willingly given away by the ignorant and foolish) but we need leaders and patriots with intelligence, understanding, and most of all the stones to push back against the heathen hordes now occupying the halls and chambers of government.

    • Pissed off socialist

      I find it interesting how you try to link liberals with monarchists when to be loyal to the crown was being conservative at the time.

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