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Fight Or Flight: Which Do You Choose?

August 12, 2011 by  

Fight Or Flight: Which Do You Choose?

Here’s a shocker: In “Action Comics #900,” Superman talked about giving up his U.S. citizenship!

No, he wasn’t protesting the incredible intrusions our Big Nanny government is making into all of our personal affairs. Superman doesn’t need to worry about being groped at an airport; he can fly anywhere he wants, unaided.

In case you haven’t followed the Man of Steel in recent years, Superman has become embarrassingly politically correct. The reason he was thinking of giving up his citizenship was because borders are obsolete these days. The Superman character said: “The world’s too small, too connected.”

At least so far, Superman hasn’t surrendered his U.S. passport. But for a bunch of people who gathered in Vancouver, Canada, two weeks ago to attend the 12th annual Agora Financial Investment Symposium, the question of how to preserve their liberty and savings was very much on their minds.

The theme of this year’s conference was Fight or Flight: Your Capital at Risk. Among the questions speakers addressed were:

  • How bad do you expect things to get? (Keep in mind this was before the market’s reaction to the Standard & Poor’s downgrade.)
  • What can we do to change things?
  • (Here was the killer) If you can’t stand what’s happening in the U.S. but don’t think it’s possible to make things better, is it time to consider moving your money — and maybe yourself – outside U.S. borders?

For a mostly Libertarian audience, it was interesting how many were more inclined to fight than flight. There was plenty of discussion about what tactics and strategies would be the most effective and which ones were likely a waste of time.

The mood of this group was captured perfectly by Byron King, author of the popular newsletter Outstanding Investments. When panelists at the Whiskey Bar (an extremely popular give-and-take closing session) were asked to name their favorite hero, philosopher and cocktail, Byron replied: “Patton, Patton and Molotov.” (I’ll give you a moment to enjoy the joke, which brought the house down.)

Doug Casey was at the opposite end of the fight-or-flight spectrum. He’s been an “international man” since he wrote a book of that title nearly 40 years ago. Today, he says he is, by choice, homeless — although he will admit to living on five continents and owning homes on most of them.

Agora founder Bill Bonner, who gave the closing address at the conference, said he did not agree with either point of view. Rather than fight or flight, he prefers to watch and chuckle. With his sardonic sense of humor, the Daily Reckoning columnist is an expert at poking fun at the posturing and platitudes of those who are sure they know what is best for us.

Speaking of politicians, no one at the conference had a more attentive audience than bestselling author John Mauldin when he described a private, invitation-only meeting he had with a roomful of Senators and their staffs in Washington a week earlier.

John is the author of an important new book, Endgame, which discusses various possible outcomes to the dilemmas our country faces. As you might imagine, many of them aren’t pretty. John describes himself as an optimist; by that, he means he thinks we will somehow muddle through.

Apparently, several members of “the world’s most exclusive club,” as the U.S. Senate is sometimes called, aren’t as optimistic. Here is how John described what happened:

It started when a friend gave Senator Dan Coats a copy of Endgame. He read it and underlined, highlighted and scored it. Then Senator Rob Portman took it off his hands and read it. They asked me to come to Washington to meet with a few of their colleagues. You don’t say no to such a request.

John met beforehand with several chiefs of staff who advised him not to use a PowerPoint or even a prepared presentation. Rather, they suggested, just talk with them about what you see happening.

Evidently, Coats and Portman had worked the room, because nine guys showed up more or less on time. Two Democrats, six Republicans, and an independent (Lieberman). Jon Kyl was there, as well as Gang of Six member Tom Coburn from Oklahoma. Also Corker, Lugar, Coats, Portman and Mike Lee, the Tea Party senator from Utah. Overall, I was very impressed with the level of knowledge in the room and the candor.

The thing that surprised and worried John — as it surprised and worried everyone who heard him in Vancouver — was that no one was very optimistic about a solution. None of the Senators or their staff he met with thought the present situation could be papered over with another round of quantitative easing, or even by a temporary increase in the debt ceiling. “I told them we could see a banking and credit crisis that was worse than the subprime crisis,” John reported. No one present disagreed with him.

When some of the most powerful people in Washington admit they don’t know what will happen next or even what to do about it, the situation is extremely serious, folks. Even Pollyanna is getting nervous.

But enough of the weeping and wailing and gnashing of teeth. Were there any positive suggestions for us? Of course. John Mauldin mentioned one of the most popular: Own gold. In fact, he says he spends some of every paycheck on the Midas metal (he’s partial to the gold American Eagle). And a lot of speakers agreed with him.

Egon von Greyerz got the crowd’s attention when he said, “There are only three kinds of money: Money which is already worthless, money that will become worthless (he put a picture of a $100 bill on the screen), and real money: gold.”

Egon also used one of the best analogies I’ve heard in a long time. It would take 100,000 workers, he said, making an average wage, more than 330 years to earn the same amount of dollars that Ben Bernanke has created in one year. Makes you appreciate just how big the tsunami of fiat currency really is, doesn’t it?

But not everyone recommended owning more gold. Gary Gibson, the editor of Whiskey and Gunpowder newsletter, had an interesting twist. Instead of buying gold coins, he said we should stock up on nickels. “Right now,” he said, “you can walk into your bank, give them a $100 bill, and receive $120 worth of nickels.” Yes, the metal content of that lowly coin is actually worth 20 percent more than its face value.

“And there’s another plus to owning nickels,” Gary told the crowd. “If you’ve got $10,000 worth stashed at home and a burglar breaks in, no way is he going to cart off more than $40 or $50 worth.”

There were many other dramatic promises and predictions at this year’s Agora symposium, including some truly eye-opening possibilities about the future of technology and biotech. But I’m running out of space to share them with you.

Instead, let me suggest that you get the CDs or MP3s of the conference and listen to the talks yourself. You can get every main session speech on a digital, downloadable MP3 file for only $99. Or if you prefer a boxed set of CDs, as I do, it costs only $149. Whichever you order, you will also receive a special report listing every investment recommendation in the afternoon breakout sessions.

To order, simply click here. And get ready to enjoy several hours of information on how to keep what’s yours — and make it grow.

Until next time, keep some powder dry.

–Chip Wood

Chip Wood

is the geopolitical editor of PersonalLiberty.com. He is the founder of Soundview Publications, in Atlanta, where he was also the host of an award-winning radio talk show for many years. He was the publisher of several bestselling books, including Crisis Investing by Doug Casey, None Dare Call It Conspiracy by Gary Allen and Larry Abraham and The War on Gold by Anthony Sutton. Chip is well known on the investment conference circuit where he has served as Master of Ceremonies for FreedomFest, The New Orleans Investment Conference, Sovereign Society, and The Atlanta Investment Conference.

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  • pete the simian

    Chip,

    SUPERMAN is an illegal alien … and should be deported !

    Only $99 for the MP3 and $149 for the CD’s ? Sounds like a good deal ! I’m sending in my SNAP Application today ! Once I get on FOOD STAMPS (EBT) I’ll have enough money to buy a copy ! HA HA HA !!!!

    • slapjack

      This is the CHANGE The Great Pretender was talking about. Ubummbo is an illegal and should be IMPEACHED ASAP. Deport the family to Kenya NOW. Dispurse his entire cabinet and aids along with him. Wake Up America we have a COMMIE in the Whit House.

      • Bert Magnus

        I have watched this country go from good to bad to good and now back to bad. It is time tio stay and fight and get this country back to what it was originally supposewd to be, away from TYRANY of any kind, where you can live free and unafraid.

        • Mike McLeod

          I agree! I have a large family and many friends. We are of like mind, train, buy ammo, food, guns and we will fight for this great country. By the way, I ahve talked with many in the service, mostly marines, and they to will come home with their weapons and anything they can get their hands on and fight with us against this Treasonous Administration called Obamaville.

      • steve in AZ

        THE PRESIDENT HAS AIDS? My lord.

        From sharing needles,liberation of his latent tendencies, or both?

        DONATE NOW AND VOTE RON PAUL 2012!!!

      • http://www.mallpros.com/store/GrandpaHarold Grandpa Harold Mawyer

        Doth not Scripture tell us “!What-so-ever a man sowth that shall he also reap”? Seem to me America is doing just that! Having sown anti God these many years now reaping the results. Reading prophecies of the Last Day before Christ Returns on one hand, headline news on the other, have a hard time telling which is which!

        I know why Obama hasn’t produced a birth certificate, cause one doesn’t exist. He is from Mars, having been left behind when Earth was visited by Martians in the 1920s in New Mexico. We captured some and their ancestry remains. Don’t believe me? Check out “The Philadelphia Experiment fully and you will find our government was pulling some shenanigans then and are still doing so.

        While we are on the subect of governmental doings, the American populace getting what thgey deserve for continuosly electing the same ole bumbling,blundering, boondoggling, beauracrats, year after year, allowing them to steal us blind and/or spend us into a 170m trillion dollar indebtedness. And now we expect them to get us out?! Come on America, get real!! And who does Pelosi appoint to the “select” panel>
        What a farce!! If the founding fathers of Virginia thought it wise to elect a man to the legislature for NO MORE THAN TWO to SIX YEARS, giving two reasons for so doing, ifyou leave them longer they will certainly forget what it means to work for a living and will surely become corrupt! Seems like those old boys had, what me Pappy called, horse sense!!

        Next time I will explain all you brilliant economist how to immediately “balance the budget”! Simple from where I sit as an outsider from the “political correctness” of DC!

        It has been a pleasure visiting with you good folks and may your day be as blessed as mine has and always will be,

        Grandpa Harold

      • http://AOL David

        Do not impeach him, charge him, arrest him convict him, and give him a little room down in Gitmo to find out who else supported this folly and then go after them also….

    • zitro

      I WANT TO KNOW AFTER WE BUY THE NCKEL’S WERE THE HECK DO WE SELL IT FOR ITS METAL PRICE..LOL

      • Bob from SoCal

        You can always use them in your shotgun.

  • Al Sieber

    I’m not going anywhere, people in my family and friends died for this country. this is my country I’m staying and fighting.

    • FreedomFighter

      Fight the good fight.

      Laus Deo
      Semper Fi

    • Lastmanstanding

      I’m with you Al.

      I have waaay to much ammo to leave to my grandkids!

      I’ll get them safely past this bs and then their on there own. (ammo-wise)
      At 3 and 5 they are already learning to garden.

      • Al Sieber

        Right on Lastman, my grand kids are a little older and are learning to target shoot and hunt, and one likes gardening.

        • DaveH

          Al, I think you will enjoy this article:
          http://mises.org/daily/5549/Fiat-Money-and-the-British-Riots

          Mises.org has several good front page articles today.

          • Old Henry

            Interesting DaveH. It puts into perspective what the British subject Kenyan inour White House is doing, and why.

          • vicki

            Nice article Dave. I especially like:

            “We are now all so used to the state robbing others on our behalf, and protecting our selfish interests with fiat regulation, that we have become incapable of doing the right thing.”

            Though in this group it rather more describes liberals then conservatives as the conservatives who post here are beginning to understand it.

          • DaveH

            I think you’re right, Vicki. I think most of the Conservatives have just swallowed the lies, but the Liberals don’t care if they’re lies.

          • Al Sieber

            Thanks for another good link Dave, I passed it on.

      • Old Henry

        Lastmanstanding:

        Last night a kid who used to live next door stopped by to say howdy. (he’s now 30 – where’s my cane?) He told me he essentially hunts for all the meat they eat – bow hunter. He processes his meat as well. He and his wife also garden as do his folks.

        Point being, there are some of the “youngsters” who will be self-sufficient. Good news.

        • Jana

          Old Henry,
          Good for him. There are a lot of young people even in their teens and 20′s that are good young people too.
          We need to get these lazy parents back in their children’s lives and make a difference. If the parents won’t or can’t do it then get the grandparents back in their lives and let them see what love of family is all about, and then love of country. These values come from the parents. Right now we have kids raising other kids.
          WE need to take responsibility and love our children enough to raise (rear) them right. To many are taken to day care where the person raising our children is getting paid minimum wage, and in some cases doesn’t even speak the same language as the child.
          I didn’t have my children just to let someone else raise them.

          • Old Henry

            Amen Jana.

          • Arecee

            And again I say…AMEN!!!

    • wandamurline

      I plan on fighting myself as my dad in WWII and husband of three wars did. I will not sit down, shut up or disappear…I will continue to fight for our country. As for Superman, I will dump him like he dumped America and spend my dollars on Captain America or some other hero who still loves our country.

      • Old Henry

        Wanda:

        Spend you $ on the Super Hero Ron Paul.

        • DaveH

          Yay.
          Henry, go here and then pick the “view results” button for the Poll on the Presidential Debate last night (lower right hand side of page):
          http://www.foxnews.com/on-air/fox-news-debates/index.html

          • Think about it

            Ron has my vote.

          • Think about it

            Nice, 55.57% by far the leader.

          • Old Henry

            DaveH:

            I did not see the View Results Button – anywhere.

          • DaveH

            They must have moved it, Henry, but as Think About It said, he had about 56% of the poll votes. Newt Gingrich (of all people) was in second (I think about 14%), and Michelle had about 10%.

          • http://www.dailypaul.com John

            It appears Fox removed the poll from their website, but you can still access it at http://www.topix.com/issue/fox/gop-debate-aug11

          • DaveH

            Thank you, John.

        • Think about it

          And Ammo, and how about Bob’s book called ( How to survive the collapse of civilization ) or ( Surive in place ) lots of great info here.

        • DaveH

          Isn’t it funny that Ron Paul wins poll after poll, and still the mainstream media doesn’t even acknowledge his candidacy most of the time? Even Fox tends to talk mostly about Michelle Bachman and Mitt Romney.

          • Think about it

            Have you ever wondered why Glen Beck left Fox ? i think that Fox is slowly turning to the lift, and for that i no longer watch Fox, I don’t like Bill Oliely he’s full of $hit and has a soft spot in his heart for Obama, Same for Sean Hannity, maybe not the soft spot for Obama part but he has way to many Liberials on his show (TV and Radio) like the Obama lover Juan Williams, he’s in it for point’s and review’s.

          • JeffH

            DaveH, you’re spot on. Unfortunately, as in last nights debate, Ron Paul didn’t “project” himself well…he tended to stumble a bit with his answers. I realize the time restraints don’t bode well for the candidates and unfortunately most people are going to judge Ron Paul on his appearance in these debates rather than the mans record which should be the only gauge to measure the qualifications of any candidate.

          • steve in AZ

            Right,Dave. And what’s even funnier are the self styled champions of constitutional conservativism, such as “jabba the mark” levin and “Dr. Puke” (sprain my neck kissing my own arse” savage, and Rust Limbaugh, who constantly opine that Dr. Paul has no chance of winning. I’m tired of peeps who admit he’s the only one with a consistent voting record based on support of the Constitution and write him off as unelectable.

            I prescribe an instant dose of bitch-slapping for “conservatives” such as this, if any real man is within arm’s length when they spout this crap.

            DONATE NOW AND VOTE RON PAUL 2012!!!

          • http://PERSONALLIBERTYDIGEST.COM FRENCHIE

            DAVE, I’M CONVINCED IT’S BECAUSE THE MEDIA & THEIR LIBERAL MASTERS FEAR RON PAUL. THEY WANT TO IGNORE HIM BECAUSE HE MAKES SENSE WHEN HE TALKS & WILL BEAT “COMRADE OBAMA” IN A LANDSLIDE IF TOO MANY PEOPLE HEAR WHAT HE HAS TO SAY. TAKE HEART THOUGH, RON’S MESSAGE IS GETTING OUT & REACHING A LOT MORE PEOPLE THIS TIME AROUND. YES, HE’S TEARING ‘EM UP IN THE POLLS & RIGHTFULLY SO. HIS MESSAGE HAS SUBSTANCE & MAKES SENSE. HE HAS A REAL PLAN. THE CANDIDATES THE MSM IS FOCUSING ON ARE SORELY LACKING THERE. THEY WANT TO PUSH RINO’S ON US, THEY WANT US TO WASTE OUR VOTES ON WEAK CANDIDATES. BUT I THINK THEY’RE IN FOR A RUDE AWAKENING. THE MEDIA’S SMOKE & MIRRORS ONLY GO SO FAR. ESPECIALLY WHEN THE INTELLIGENT AMONG US ARE FULLY AWAKE & ON GUARD. HELL, EVEN AN IDIOT CAN SEE THAT RON’S THE ONLY REAL CHOICE IF THEY TAKE A MINUTE TO LISTEN TO HIM & CHECK OUT HOW CONSISTENTLY PRO-CONSTITUTION HIS VOTING RECORD IN CONGRESS HAS ALWAYS BEEN. THAT’S WHY THEY FEAR AND/OR TRY TO IGNORE HIM. R3VOLUTION, BABY !!! RON PAUL 2012 !!!!!!

          • Old Henry

            DaveH:

            I received 2 or 3 emails from Ron Paul’s camaign recently that stated Romney was going to avoid / not attend the Iowa debates.

            What was that all about?

          • DaveH

            The media was making a big flap about Romney not being there, so he probably felt he better show up or else.
            I don’t remember where he landed on the debate poll, but he was lower than Michelle who was at 10%.

          • Old Henry

            Thanks DaveH. That is an impressive number. Yeah, hard to believe Newtie came in second. I can’t stand that guy.

            Sure is a shame that Bachmann sold out the TEA Party with that Patriot vote.

          • DaveH

            This is an example of why I just don’t bother reading articles on Liberal websites:
            http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/08/07/ames-straw-poll-debate_n_920463.html

            From the article — “until now, he’s [Obama] been focused on governing and has done little campaigning as Republicans compete for the chance to challenge him in November 2012.”

            OMG. They have that exactly backward. Obama has been doing very little governing and mostly campaigning for the last several months.

            How ignorant do these Liberals think we are?

          • DaveH
          • JeffH

            DaveH, excellant video…I have to agree with you, more than ever, that Ron Paul is the only candidate that has the “pedigree” of freedom and liberty. His constant battle to end the Federal Reserve and his history of battling against fiat money and the central banks shouldn’t be taken lightly by antone.

            I’ve finally decided that I’m “all in” ,without any reservations, for Ron Paul.

      • Elevenarrows

        Wandamurline, I don’t know if it is true, but I heard that the name Captain America was changed in foreign venues because the producers were afraid anti-American countries would not have a good turn out for the movie…(based on the comics). I need to check it out for sure, but if that is true, I am boycotting the movie.

        • Old Henry

          Elevenarrows:

          Showing a movie named Captain America in anti-America countries – even if you change the name – What seems somewhat bizare about that?

        • libertytrain

          given the content of the movie they would have to do more than change the name to make it less American than it is. I saw it when it came out and it was very Patriotic, to say the least, in my eyes.

      • Cawmun Cents

        Make no mistake.
        This is not about Supes per say…..but about the writers at DC(is the tone that obvious?)Comics.
        Some leftist has chosen the SUPERMAN TM name,as a platform to air his Democratic Socialist viewpoint.
        Evidently the DC editor is comfortable with this kind of rhetoric.
        I put the blame solely on DC.
        They have decided to take the DS(DEMOCRATIC SOCIALIST)sentiments,and work them into the line of the Superman story.
        I for one,will not buy their product,nor watch their heroes in the Hollywood films,any longer.
        The capitalistic way to show them why they arent getting it is to boycott their product.
        I used to admire DC’S heroes.
        Then the leftists took command of the writing,and the editors position.
        My way of dealing with that is to simply not exercise my right to buy their drivel.
        CAPITALISM!
        Aint it great?!
        Superman is not to blame.
        He is an innocent victim of Democratic Socialism.
        I kind of know how that goes…..dont you?
        -CC.

    • jibbs

      HIGH FIVE!!
      LIVE FREE OR DIE!

    • JeffH

      Ai, amen brother…my gunsafe, errr pantry is stocked with plenty of lead and steel.

    • texastwin827

      I’m with you Al, too. Both my parent’s families have fought in ever war this country has ever had, beginning with the American Revolution. While my dad was never sent overseas, he was an “old man” of 35, when he enlisted in 1942, because it was his duty, not because he had to.

      I may be old, but I’d die for this country, before I’d leave her to tyranny! As Thomas Jefferson said “The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants.”

      Fortunately, due to the supidity of the politicians, they have created a whole new generation of seasoned, combat patriots, with the recent wars, that will take up the fight, along with those of us, who are older. Most of them don’t like what’s going on in their country, any more than we do and, if you ask them, they will let you know, in a heartbeat, their oath is to the Constitution, not to politicians.

      • Old Henry

        texastwin:

        That is real good news as I have wondered for quite some time about our military personnel being used against us for D.C.’s purposes.

        • Cawmun Cents

          Here are some words that a Scotsman once sang:

          Please don’t Judas me
          Treat me as you’d like to be treated
          Please don’t blacklist me
          Leave me as you’d wish to find me
          Don’t analyze me
          Sacrifice me
          Please don’t Judas me

          Please don’t chastise me
          Show me just one shred of kindness
          Try to help me see
          Guide me in my eyes of blindness
          Don’t despise me
          Categorize me
          Please don’t Judas me

          No, no, don’t Judas me
          No, please don’t Judas me

          Please don’t headshrink me
          Don’t disguise your innuendos
          Make no lies to me
          I can see the way the wind blows
          Don’t deface me
          Annihilate me
          Please don’t Judas me

          Please don’t number me
          Don’t betray my trust and promise
          Please don’t anger me
          I find it hard to bear no fairness
          Don’t frustrate me
          Manipulate me
          Please don’t Judas me

          No, no, don’t Judas me
          No, please don’t Judas me

          Dan McCafferty 1975

          I dont believe for 1 second that our military will attack its own citizens.
          Furthermore,I do not see someone who holds the office of President,ordering them to do so either.

          But what do I know?Apparently very little………..-CC.

      • Al Sieber

        I’m with you too texas, my family goes back that far also.

    • Bob from SoCal

      Thats the spirit Al! I’m with you.

      • Al Sieber

        Thanks Bob, and I know there’s more like you.

  • Former Walmart person

    I agree with fighting. Running might buy you some time, but you are naive to think that the global power structure will allow some dinky country to remain free. We still have our guns here. How many countries out there permit civilian control of firearms?

    • mark

      Right as long as we have our guns, we’ll be OK?!!! Everyone in Colombia has a gun too, in fact an AK-47, and they’re doing just great! On the contrary what makes us such an outstanding country is our Constitution (even with its gun clause), our tradition of free market entrepreneurship (currently being damaged greatly by Wall Street, the big banks and big corporations), and our long tradition of democratic governance, peaceful transfer of power from one party to another, etc. Our large scale gun ownership has little to do with this and in fact contributes greatly to the enormous amount of murders and violence in our society. Among advanced industrial societies we consistently come in No. 1 in murder rates, crime, drug addiction, and prison population rates.

      • Old Henry

        mark

        Free men own guns. Slaves do not.

        When the government fears the people there is liberty.
        When the people fear the government, there is tyranny.

        Don’t like guns? Don’t buy one, but don’t interfer with our right to self-defense. When seconds count, the police are only minutes away – at best.

        • mark

          Lots of UNFREE men own guns as well. There are hundreds of thousands of them in Latin America, Africa, and Asia. They all own guns and they all use guns on a regular basis and they all are UNFREE. It takes more than guns to maintain a free society. It takes a Constitution and a democratic form of government that a majority of the people support and participate in. That is why we are free here in America and lots of other people are not.

          • http://ahalbert@smart-technology.net Allan

            If we hadn’t had guns, we wouldn’t be free today.

          • Old Henry

            Well mark, you are close. It takes OUR Constitution, guns and a Republic, which is what our nation is. We are not a democracy. That is the lie taught in our schools and spewed by the MSM.

          • vicki

            mark says:
            “Lots of UNFREE men own guns as well. There are hundreds of thousands of them in Latin America, Africa, and Asia.”

            And therein is the problem. The number of folk that have guns in the unfree areas you mention is WAY WAY below the number of folk that that have guns in the US.

            Due to link restrictions I will only provide one example but you can go to the site and look up the rest yourself.

            “The rate of private gun ownership in Mexico is 15.02 firearms per 100 people”
            http://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/region/mexico

            The rate for the US is ~88 per 100. cite at the same site above.

            Mark: “They all own guns and they all use guns on a regular basis and they all are UNFREE.”

            They do not all own guns. The ones that do and use them on a regular basis are obviously the free ones cause they still posses firearms.

            Mark: “It takes more than guns to maintain a free society.”
            True. But it does REQUIRE guns to maintain a free society. You can not keep freedom without the power to resist those who would use guns to take away your freedom.

            Mark: “It takes a Constitution and a democratic form of government that a majority of the people support and participate in.

            False. It takes only a moral and religious people. Ones who respect individual rights. Ones who are at least aware of the existence of others.
            Why even a monarchy could have a free society as long as the monarch maintains a minimum of laws and let the people alone to keep the fruits of their labor.

            Mark: “That is why we are free here in America and lots of other people are not.”

            You’re free in America? (I’m guessing you have forgotten that the US is not all of America. We all do that from time to time).

            Then why, pray tell, do you have to ask your government for permission to take your private property on the kings highways? Why do you need permission to grow certain crops? Why do you have to ask your government for permission to modify your dwelling (assuming you own it)

          • Dan az

            Viki
            I”m afraid you were wasting your time with this one,he is far to gone to comprehend anything of common sense.I do appreciate the time you took and the meaner that you wrote in.So it wasn’t wasted, I am sure others here feel the same way.Thank you for that!

          • Kate8

            Excellent, Vicki.

            We have been operating under the illusion that we are free for a long time now. Yet, how could we believe ourselves free when every aspect of our entire lives is regulated (more so every day)?

            We are waking up to reality because the PTB have sped things up a great deal. We hardly have time to adjust to one new regulation when ten more issue forth from our House of Treason and Betrayal. We now see that we’ve slowly but surely been had.

            We are becoming one of the least free people. We’ve been lulled into accepting authority without question, thus giving up all personal sovereignty, and now the trap is being sprung.

          • Vicki

            Dan az says:
            “Viki
            I”m afraid you were wasting your time with this one,”

            Perhaps but people wasted their time on me when I was a brainwashed liberal. I am simply extending the favor.

            Also I write to those who are listening and they are there even when we rarely hear from them.

          • Vicki

            Kate8 says:
            “Excellent, Vicki.

            We have been operating under the illusion that we are free for a long time now. Yet, how could we believe ourselves free when every aspect of our entire lives is regulated (more so every day)?”

            Since long before you and I were born. Our education and news continue to propagate the illusion.

      • eddie47d

        I understand what you are saying Old Henry yet would there be so many gun deaths if we weren’t so obsessed with having so many guns.I support the right to own a weapon but not the scatter shot laws that sometimes make it way to easy to purchase them.

        • TIME

          Manzier 47 D cup.

          There are More deaths from “car crashes” than guns, There are more deaths due to “Cancer” than Guns, there are more deaths from persons who won the “Darwin Award” than Guns!

          • eddie47d

            Smart azz Time bomb; We’re talking about guns not cars or cancer. We have auto companies working on the safety of cars and laboratories working to cure cancer so stop falling off the banana wagon every time.

          • texastwin827

            Hey Eddie…there’s a “safety” on every gun manufactured. If you think that the criminals wouldn’t have them, if they weren’t legal, you are sadly mistaken. They would only buy them on the black market. I for one, prefer to have the ability to defend myself, my family and my country, should the need arise.

          • TIME

            Manzier 47 D cup,

            Falling off a banna cart, WOW — how long did that take you to think up, an hour. Drink a cup of Joe and take a nap.

          • eddie47d

            You just proved yourself to be a bigger smart azz and nothing more.

          • TIME

            Manzier 47 D Cup.

            WOW, Thanks for taking the time to post that lovely post.
            You be sure to drink your milk, and eat your PEAS, also would you please be kind enough to get to the back of the BUS!

            Have Nice Day, :-)

          • JeffH

            TIME, eddie is what is known as a “mark”, an easy target…so what would you say to re-naming eddie in our responses…like maybe Easy-E? Just askin’?

          • eddie47d

            How about sleazy J (for Jeff) or do you prefer Mr Pimple?

        • DaveH

          Eddie,
          Don’t blame the crime rate on guns. They are inanimate objects incapable of hurting people without a human operator. Read the article that I linked to in my response to Mark for some reality.
          And I know, your next comment will probably be that I support murderers, so save it, we all know your disrespectful tactics.

          • mark

            Biological, chemical, and nuclear weapons of mass destruction are also inanimate objects incapable of hurting people without a human operator. So why was Bush and other presidents so obsessed with stopping their spread? Nuclear and biological weapons don’t kill people, it is only the evil people who use them who kill people. But a wise govermnent would try to put some controls on guns and WMD given that we know lot of evil people who don’t include you or me can easily get a hold on them.

          • eddie47d

            I said nothing about you supporting murders so why are you using DISRESPECTFUL tactics. You seem to relish it anymore and your ploy isn’t working.

          • DaveH

            Eddie,
            You know the truth about yourself. So do the regular readers.

          • DaveH

            Sure, Mark, whatever you say. You have no facts to back up your claims though. I do, and I posted them.
            It’s fine with me if you don’t protect yourself. But I do care about the good people in this country who have a right to self-defense. And I sure wouldn’t trust you or your cohorts to decide who is deserving of that right.

          • Kate8

            mark – I can’t let this pass.

            “Wise government”? ?????

            Government offices always attract people who like wealth and power, and are willing to promise anything to get it. They are also willing to sell their souls. This has been true since the beginning of time, and is no less true today.

            No matter how well-intentioned, given a little time governments will always turn on the governed. That is why revolutions are fought from time to time, for better or worse.

            I would trust weapons in the hands of ordinary citizens much more than in the hands of those who wield power. Your notion of “wise government” is a liberal utopian dream that simply cannot be, human nature being what it is.

          • eddie47d

            They know the truth about you also Dave. Saying things that aren’t true about others. Emperor Dave has no clothes. I may make an error but if I catch it I will correct it. ( Yesterday I said thousands when it should have been hundreds).

          • TIME

            Manzier 47 D cup,

            Hey hows that Moo Moo working out?

          • Old Henry

            You know Kate8, I don’t care if those in government want to sell their souls. However, I do not want them selling my soul – AKA Hillary / Barry and the U.N.

          • DaveH

            “Saying things about others that aren’t true”, Eddie? Can you back that up? Of course not, because you can’t. All the regulars know that you are a liar, Eddie. And you know that you are a liar.

          • pete the simian

            Y’know, it don’t matter if our society is more violent with criminals who use guns !!! That’s even a better reason why law abiding citizens should own more firearms !!!

            Just because criminals are more bold these days in the use of firearms, the law abiding citizens should be disarmed ????? That’s TOTALLY ABSURD !!!!

            The citizens need more weapons to protect themselves, that’s the only way we can defend ourselves against the criminals !! The Police try to do their best – but get real, they can’t be everywhere…

            Anyhow, you will know when you need a pistol. Hopefully you will have one on you when you need it !!!! HA HA HA !

            All that Gun Control propaganda is so stupid ! If you can’t defend yourself – you are DEAD !! That’s a fact JACK !!!

          • eddie47d

            Prove it Dave H for if it was true you would have all the “facts” lined up which you don’t. You can’t prove it so you resort to your usual and tired old put downs. Stop making Libertarians look bad Dave or are you assuming they all like false accusations?

          • DaveH

            All I need do is expose one of your lies, Eddie. And I did. But I’ll repeat it.
            Eddie said “They know the truth about you also Dave. Saying things that aren’t true about others. Emperor Dave has no clothes.”
            That was a lie, Eddie. You know it. I know it. The regulars know it, and the regulars know you’re a liar, Eddie.

          • vicki

            mark writes:
            “Biological, chemical, and nuclear weapons of mass destruction are also inanimate objects incapable of hurting people without a human operator.”

            I rather think that a biological weapon is not inanimate.

          • Peaceful Warrior

            While I feel no one should be restricted of the right to own weapons for self defense, I think it would take a lot more than just a mere gun or two to defend oneself and family from tyranny.

            Ya’ll think a gun or two are going to protect you and your family from biological or nuclear attacks? Guess what, when you are in the wilderness alone with your family, or anywhere for that matter, preparing your guns and ammunition, one little missile and you are gone, up in smoke, turned to nothing.

            Stop placing all of your energies in divisive rhetoric about republicans and democrats, or conservatives and liberals. Have you not realized they are one in the same? Look into the real issues and stop this hateful, nonsensical talk. Focus on informing the masses, educating, putting information out there, and having peaceful demonstrations.

            Does it not make sense to peacefully assemble and collectively create civil disobedience? Does it not make sense to have power in numbers? You, alone in the wilderness or wherever cannot have much of an impact on the safety and freedoms of this country.

            I am tired of this renegade, hero or lone ranger mentality spewing all kinds of unrealistic comments about having your lead ready. C’on folk, let’s get real. Stop dividing and focus on the commonalities, not the differences. There will always be differences in ideologies, but we all have the same common goals: Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness!

          • Karolyn

            Thank you, Peaceful Warrior!

          • vicki

            Peaceful Warrior says:
            “While I feel no one should be restricted of the right to own weapons for self defense, I think it would take a lot more than just a mere gun or two to defend oneself and family from tyranny.”

            Correct. It takes the whole of the people to resist tyranny. It is a LOT more effective to resist if the people are armed. In the US that means there will be a gun behind each and every blade of grass.

            Peaceful Warrior says:” Ya’ll think a gun or two are going to protect you and your family from biological or nuclear attacks? Guess what, when you are in the wilderness alone with your family, or anywhere for that matter, preparing your guns and ammunition, one little missile and you are gone, up in smoke, turned to nothing.”

            And if you are sitting in your little slave hovel in the middle of town you will be just as nothing. Even before that little missile.

            Peaceful Warrior says: “Stop placing all of your energies in divisive rhetoric about republicans and democrats, or conservatives and liberals. Have you not realized they are one in the same? Look into the real issues and stop this hateful, nonsensical talk. Focus on informing the masses, educating, putting information out there, and having peaceful demonstrations.

            Peaceful Warrior says: “Does it not make sense to peacefully assemble and collectively create civil disobedience?”

            In case you are new to this planet that is what the Tea Party has been doing. Minus the civil disobedience. Hasn’t been needed.

            Peaceful Warrior says: “I am tired of this renegade, hero or lone ranger mentality spewing all kinds of unrealistic comments about having your lead ready.”

            You must be new here. The comments about having your lead ready is not the speech of a lone ranger mentality. It is the speech of people assembling to resist tyranny. The very thing you seem to be claiming we should do.

            Peaceful Warrior says: “C’on folk, let’s get real. Stop dividing and focus on the commonalities, not the differences. There will always be differences in ideologies, but we all have the same common goals: Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness!”

            If we have the same goals why do liberals insist on using the power of government to steal our wealth for their pet causes?

          • Kate8

            Vicki – I just want to say, you continually hit the ball out of the park with your posts. I do so enjoy reading them, and I have a great deal of respect for your mind.

            Thank you for posting here. You bless us.

          • Dan az

            smark
            Look you are just here to try to disrupt any thought of the problems that your boy wounder has created.Nothing more.But all you have done is proved the stupidity of the far left and have made allot of fence sitters to wake up to reality that the dumocraps have totally lost it.I thank you for that but you make me nauseated with your post every time you open your mouth so please take your head out of where you keep it and bruch your teeth before you speak or better yet just leave and follow the rest of your kind back to the barn,I think your trough is over running.

          • JeffH

            Kate8, I’ll second that…Vicki is an asset to this website.

          • Dan az

            Viki
            I love the way you do that!You have always impressed me with the way you write and break down everything someone says.I only wish I could do that with out through in my emotions.Keep up the good work girl we all enjoy reading you and your intellectual skills that always make them run and hide. :)

          • Vicki

            *Blush* Thanks guys. Thank the Creator (I call him/her God). I pray to him/her at least once a day before I sit and write responses. Yes I am one of those “evil” Christians.

            One of the things I do is to remember that I am not writing to change the mind of the liberal. I write to show those who quietly read why the way that the typical liberal wants things to be is broken.

            I do pray for all to understand because we are, as Karolyn has said, all God’s children and God does love all of us.

            resist the sin but love the sinner.

        • JeffH

          eddie, because you know so much about “the scatter shot laws that sometimes make it way to easy to purchase them” why don’t you tell us which “scatter shot laws” you’d like to change?

          Don’t give us the tired nonsensical standard response of “gunshow loopholes” which is a secret coded talking point from Bloomberg and Brady all the way to Feinstein…give us some specifics rather than simple blather.

          • eddie47d

            Why should I respond to your manipulative BLATHER. Same ol,Same ol!

          • JeffH

            eddie says “Why should I respond to your manipulative BLATHER.”

            eddie, your biggest problem is that you have nothing to support your comments so you just resort to what you’re best at…childish behavior.

          • eddie47d

            I’m sure there are a few who have caught on to your childish behavior and snippy replies. Trust me your not going to be placed into sainthood.

          • TIME

            Manzier 47 D Cup,

            O Mc~Blather, oh yea I recall that song,

            Here a blather, there a blather, look at the man with the MOO MOO on.
            Old Mc Blather had a Manzier on 47 D cup I know.

            Yada, Yada, yada, Dude you are just SOoooooo out there we need a million mile long rope to bring you back to earth. But non the less You have NICE WEEK END,
            Hey ~ my tip O da day, ~ don’t take candys from dogs if its in a plastic bag.

          • Old Henry

            Hey JeffH:
            }
            Ya spose he means gun show loopholes like Holder and Soetoro forcing dealers at gun shows to sell to known criminals? That kind of loophole that then makes them both complicit in the murder of a U.S. Border Guard? Hmmmmm?

          • Old Henry

            eddie, Atheists are not put into sainthood. However, DaveH uses more back-up data / links than anyone I have ever seen here (r anywhere else).

          • JeffH

            Old Henry, yep…”gun show loopholes”…that’s always been a big part of Easy-E’s anti-gun spiel.

          • eddie47d

            Looks like Time is trying to be the circus clown again. Reliving your childhood Time bomb?

        • Think about it

          So, let me see, If guns kill, then pencil’s must be the reason for misspelled word’s correct ? Not the person.
          Maybe we should ban Car’s, Ball Bat’s, Rock’s, 2 x 4′s, Nail Gun’s, Hammer’s, Knive’s, wait, i know maybe we should ban PEOPLE. eddie47 you will end up a slave in a gas chamber some day.

          • eddie47d

            Think about it; No one is talking about banning all your objects as your side always flips out and says. Safety and accountability is the overriding issue which you will only discuss on your terms.

          • mark

            Hey some people even want to ban nuclear, biological, and chemical weapons of mass destruction?! But why? They don’t kill anyone. It is the person who operates them who does the killing. Not the poor, innocent nuclear warheads, chemical bombs, and nerve gas cannisters. They are completely innocent just like gun;, so why do we persecute and condemn WMD all around the world? Stupid Americans!

          • DaveH

            I would like to ban Liberals who want to Force their way on everybody else. That is most of them.

          • DaveH

            The problem with Liberals is that their arguments are without backing, otherwise people would take their advice voluntarily. Since we don’t, the Liberals must resort to name-calling, ridicule, conjecture, or whatever other manipulative tactics they can pull out of their bag of tricks. And when those don’t work, they strive to use the Force of Government to get their way.

          • DaveH

            Typical anti-gun hypocrite:
            http://seeineye.free2explore.com/?p=3527

          • eddie47d

            Your nothing but a carpetbagger Dave with your silly threads you treat as the gospel. Soles got a A rating from the NRA which blows your BS all to hell. Everyone should have the right to defend themselves including those who want civilized restrictions on who is allowed to purchase weapons. Use some common sense for a change Dave before you keep running around gloating.

          • JeffH

            Easy-E says “Everyone should have the right to defend themselves including those who want civilized restrictions on who is allowed to purchase weapons”

            hmmm…what’s wrong with this picture? “Everyone should have the right to defend themselves”…no that’s a good thing….hmmm

            “those who want those who want civilized restrictions on who is allowed to purchase weapons”…this might be where the problem lies…

            Ease-E, is “civilized restrictions” just another code-term for “common sense”? Yeah, I think it is…I knpw how that’s worked out…just ask Dianne Feinstein and the rest of the anti-gun movement.

          • Old Henry

            Think about it:

            That’s right! Pencils and Keeoords are resopnsible!

          • DaveH

            News Flash! Eddie didn’t tell a lie this time. I stand corrected.
            From GRNC (Grass Roots North Carolina Forum for Firearms Education):
            http://grnc.org/alerts/alert_10_3_09.htm

            Notice though that GRNC, who would know R.C. Soles better than most, stated this: “GRNC is compelled to point out that while not excellent, R. C. Soles is not a “virulent anti-Second Amendment activist” nor a “vociferous anti-gun zealot.”
            and “the charges are simply not true – he is mediocre at worst and has voted with us on most major issues”

            But getting an A from the NRA (the same people who hung around with Harry Reid) is not an endorsement I would trust.

          • eddie47d

            One thing for sure you can depend on Jeff to not have any common sense.Always in lock step with extreme drivel.

        • Old Henry

          eddie:

          The city guvment in Chi Da Go has banned gun ownership by its citizens for years. Now only the gang-bangers, drug dealers and assorted low-life are the only ones with guns.

          I lisent to WLS out of Chi Ka Go everyday and almost every day I hear a report of some 6 year old, teen ager playing basketball, someone being robbed and murdered, etc. being shot by the scum.

          Remember the bumper sticker from the 60s / 70s that said: “When guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns”. It’s came true in “Daleyville”.

          And TIME is correct. So, I think we should outlaw cars.

          • eddie47d

            I didn’t say we should outlaw gun so why the continual insistence that I do.

          • DaveH

            Eddie,
            You really need to take an English Comprehension class. Henry didn’t say that you did say that.
            But, if he had, it would be about time that somebody put words in your mouth for once to show you what it’s like.

          • eddie47d

            Are you blind Dave which I have called you out on several time? “When guns are outlawed only criminals will have guns” You need to take a comprehension class on what is being said.

          • DaveH

            Are you kidding? No amount of English Comprehension can prepare a person to understand your Pidgin English, Eddie.

      • TIME

        WOW mark,

        There you go again with that lazer sharpe logic. {{“NOT!”}}

        First off the Second Amendment was created to “insure that the Government” would never be able to turn in to a Nazi like Government. Yet it has due to mindless people like you eating Propaganda by the Ton. Then being a perfect little mindless PARROT & repeating it word for word. As in your lacking independant thinking abilitys. Or are you really just a simple minded MARXIST.

        Crime is what it is, how many people live in the UK?
        Deutchland?
        Italy?
        France?
        Spain?
        Etc..
        They have very small populations when compaired with the United States so to compaire them is no differant that saying that a Cabbage is the same as Corn, due to the fact that both begin with the letter C.

        So other that utter stupidity from you yet again your post’s value is not unlike that liquid brown stuff my dog’s have when they don’t feel well, oddly thats what fills your skull too.

        Perhaps you should get out in the sun now and then, as in leave your Mommies basement.

        • mark

          As I said in my post, the U.S. has massively higher handgun murder RATES than the countries I mentioned. Of course, the countries you mentioned are much smaller than the U.S. but this is reflected in the per capital adjusted statistics. Take Great Britain for instance. It has a population of 60 million vs. the U.S. population of 300 million. The U.K. is roughly one fifth the size of the U.S. population So you do the simple calculations. Last year Great Britain, a nation where it is very difficult to get a get, had 112 handgun murders. The U.S. in the same year had 14,016 hand gun murders. So you multiply the 112 British handgun murders by a factor of 5 and come up with 560 handgun murders if the U.K. population was the same size as the U.S. vs. the 14,016 handgun murders in the U.S. So per capita U.S. inhabitants kill their fellow U.S. inhabitants with guns at a rate 25 times higher than British citizens kill their fellow citizens, fully taking into account the population differences. Can you follow that?

          • JeffH

            mark, you have no credibility on this board…you provide a lot of “numbers” and absolutely nothing else but your “word” to substantiate them.

            Let us see where you are drawing these statistics from and then maybe, just maybe we’ll see how creditable, up-to-date and accurate they are…in the meantime, it’s nothing more than your typical progressive rhetoric.

            In other words, put up or shut up!

          • eddie47d

            It called math Jeff. He gave you the answer and you still can’t figure it out and you still want someone to believe your credibility.

          • TIME

            mark,
            I moved our offices out of the UK. Why? Due to the HIGH Crime of what is far greater than here in the US.
            On the hour in the UK someone is stabbed I guess you didn’t know a knife kills just as dead as anything else.
            After most every football game in the UK at least ten people are killed in crazy acts based on who’s team won or lost! Not a single word of these acts is ever reported.

            Anyone can kill anyone with a bloody toaster, a hammer, or even a fork, believe it or not a crazy little shoe string can kill you dead, and anyone can do it.

            Guns don’t kill people, “PEOPLE Kill PEOPLE.”

            I lived in these Europen nations thus I know far more than you about what really goes on there.
            In the US you don’t even know whats going on down the street so don’t tell me you know whats going on in Europe.

          • JeffH

            eddie, “do the math”? Are you really that “stupid”? Don’t answer that one…the answer is already well known.

            Math has nothing to do with mark, mark, mark’s comment…anybody can arbitrarily make up anything and call it fact…references and links are what can substantiate or refute said statistics/numbers and make a comment creditable, not “the math”. As you should understand by now(even though you still don’t “get it”), your lack of credibility(last poll was 20-0 against) was established a long time ago because of your inability to provide any creditable links or source of reference other than your word(lying does not make one creditable), although often requested yet totally rejected and ignored by YOU eddie…the proof is always in the pudding.

            You can run, but as long as you keep opening your mouth, you can’t hide.

          • eddie47d

            I won’t run from anything Jeff and definitely not from you.I like you continuous attempt to stiffle someone elses opinion. You must love censorship and I will continue not to use links. I certainly won’t cower to your lack of ability to think for yourself. If you don’t like something I say or anyone else look it up and prove me wrong instead of using your mocking censorship. That doesn’t cut it.I bet 90% of those who post here don’t use links yet you continue to accept their version of things. So go blow your snot(hypocrisy) somewhere else.

          • texastwin827

            eddie…Math has nothing to do with it. He spouted of so called statistics, without providing any source for his info.

            So, in rebuttal…see below:
            http://www.cfif.org/htdocs/freedomline/current/in_our_opinion/Gun-Ownership.htm

            Harvard Journal of Law & Public Policy Confirms that Reducing Gun Ownership by Law-Abiding Citizens Does Nothing to Reduce Violence Worldwide

            Excerpts:
            American jurisdictions that allow law-abiding citizens to exercise their Second Amendment right to keep and bear arms are far safer and more crime-free than jurisdictions that enact stringent “gun control” laws.

            study shows that this is not just an American phenomenon. According to the study, worldwide gun ownership rates do not correlate with higher murder or suicide rates. In fact, many nations with high gun ownership have significantly lower murder and suicide rates.

            To the contrary, they establish that Soviet murder rates far exceeded American murder rates, and continue to do so today, despite Russia’s extremely stringent gun prohibitions. By 2004, they show, the Russian murder rate was nearly four times higher than the American rate.

            other developed nations such as Norway, Finland, Germany, France and Denmark maintain high rates of gun ownership, yet possess murder rates lower than other developed nations in which gun ownership is much more restricted.

            For example, handguns are outlawed in Luxembourg, and gun ownership extremely rare, yet its murder rate is nine times greater than in Germany, which has one of the highest gun ownership rates in Europe. As another example, Hungary’s murder rate is nearly three times higher than nearby Austria’s, but Austria’s gun ownership rate is over eight times higher than Hungary’s. “Norway,” they note, “has far and away Western Europe’s highest household gun ownership rate (32%), but also its lowest murder rate. The Netherlands,” in contrast, “has the lowest gun ownership rate in Western Europe (1.9%) … yet the Dutch gun murder rate is higher than the Norwegian.”

            Dr. Kates and Dr. Mauser proceed to dispel the mainstream misconception that lower rates of violence in Europe are somehow attributable to gun control laws. Instead, they reveal, “murder in Europe was at an all-time low before the gun controls were introduced.” As the authors note, “strict controls did not stem the general trend of ever-growing violent crime throughout the post-WWII industrialized world.”

            Citing England, for instance, they reveal that “when it had no firearms restrictions [in the nineteenth and early twentieth centuries], England had little violent crime.” By the late 1990s, however, “England moved from stringent controls to a complete ban on all handguns and many types of long guns.” As a result, “by the year 2000, violent crime had so increased that England and Wales had Europe’s highest violent crime rate, far surpassing even the United States.” In America, on the other hand, “despite constant and substantially increasing gun ownership, the United States saw progressive and dramatic reductions in criminal violence in the 1990s.”

            Dr. Kates and Dr. Mauser proceed to dispel the mainstream misconception that lower rates of violence in Europe are somehow attributable to gun control laws. Instead, they reveal, “murder in Europe was at an all-time low before the gun controls were introduced.” As the authors note, “strict controls did not stem the general trend of ever-growing violent crime throughout the post-WWII industrialized world.”

            Citing England, for instance, they reveal that “when it had no firearms restrictions [in the nineteenth and early twentieth centuries], England had little violent crime.” By the late 1990s, however, “England moved from stringent controls to a complete ban on all handguns and many types of long guns.” As a result, “by the year 2000, violent crime had so increased that England and Wales had Europe’s highest violent crime rate, far surpassing even the United States.” In America, on the other hand, “despite constant and substantially increasing gun ownership, the United States saw progressive and dramatic reductions in criminal violence in the 1990s.”

            Dr. Kates and Dr. Mauser proceed to dispel the mainstream misconception that lower rates of violence in Europe are somehow attributable to gun control laws. Instead, they reveal, “murder in Europe was at an all-time low before the gun controls were introduced.” As the authors note, “strict controls did not stem the general trend of ever-growing violent crime throughout the post-WWII industrialized world.”

            Citing England, for instance, they reveal that “when it had no firearms restrictions [in the nineteenth and early twentieth centuries], England had little violent crime.” By the late 1990s, however, “England moved from stringent controls to a complete ban on all handguns and many types of long guns.” As a result, “by the year 2000, violent crime had so increased that England and Wales had Europe’s highest violent crime rate, far surpassing even the United States.” In America, on the other hand, “despite constant and substantially increasing gun ownership, the United States saw progressive and dramatic reductions in criminal violence in the 1990s.”

            Dr. Kates and Dr. Mauser proceed to dispel the mainstream misconception that lower rates of violence in Europe are somehow attributable to gun control laws. Instead, they reveal, “murder in Europe was at an all-time low before the gun controls were introduced.” As the authors note, “strict controls did not stem the general trend of ever-growing violent crime throughout the post-WWII industrialized world.”

            Citing England, for instance, they reveal that “when it had no firearms restrictions [in the nineteenth and early twentieth centuries], England had little violent crime.” By the late 1990s, however, “England moved from stringent controls to a complete ban on all handguns and many types of long guns.” As a result, “by the year 2000, violent crime had so increased that England and Wales had Europe’s highest violent crime rate, far surpassing even the United States.” In America, on the other hand, “despite constant and substantially increasing gun ownership, the United States saw progressive and dramatic reductions in criminal violence in the 1990s.”

            Furthermore, the authors highlight the important point that while the American gun murder rate often exceeds that in other nations, the overall per capita murder rate in other nations (including other means such as strangling, stabbing, beating, etc.) is oftentimes much higher than in America.

            Read the last paragraph carefully, please

          • JeffH

            eddie, thanks for confirming what has been repeated time and again about you and your lack of honesty and credibility.

            You just said “If you don’t like something I say or anyone else look it up and prove me wrong instead of using your mocking censorship.”

            Define censorship if you could…correcting, proving you wrong and pointing out your shortcomings is not a form censorship…so I ask you to define censorship?

            Who, more than I, among several others, consistantely prove you(making a solid case for your lack of credibility)wrong with linked references and accurate responses. Everyone has a something that to contribute around here good, bad or indifferent…I choose to fully expose(although you do a great job yourself)you for what you are…a dumbed down member of the flock, a liar and a deceptive little minion who would rather duck and hide from reality. Fortunately, your world and mine are on opposite ends of the spectrum

          • JOE

            Here’s a stat for you; roughly 56 MILLION people were exterminated my their totalitarian governments after the following:
            1: Nationwide gun registration
            which led to
            2: Nationwide gun confiscation

            In every case, it was an incremental process that began with “common sense” gun laws, which set the precedents that allowed more stringent laws. The agendas of the major anti-gun groups do not end with their supposed goal of reducing gun violence. Most have made it very clear, at one time or another, that their ultimate goal is a complete ban.

          • Jay

            Actually, the United States is the 4th with most murders by firearms per capita in the world.

            http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_wit_fir-crime-murders-with-firearms

          • eddie47d

            Jeff; Youare playing that same old fiddle and the strings are broken. Where have you proven that I am wrong? Because you say that without proving anything it’s all slanderous talk on your part. That is the underhanded ploy you keep playing. So where am I a liar? texastwin above said that killings in other countries can be much higher. He says because they use knifes and stranglation. I beg to differ since our statistics don’t show that, only gun deaths. Which means we should now allow knife stabbings,poisonings,and stranglulations in those national satistics which would shoot up our numbers even higher. I don’t want your guns Jeff so stop making up stories that I’m going to take them away. Look at the whole picture not just what GOA says for you to think.

          • JeffH

            eddie…reality…You have been proven wrong constantly, that is a fact that you just can’t change nor accept. You can rant, rave, lie and call people as many childish names as you like, it doesn’t alter the facts…of course, that’s what you liberals do best. All you ever do when someone refutes your little self made and delusional stories is make some of the most childish and foul comments in response…try making a little sense once in a while and learn to back up your comments…you make a statement of fact, back them up…you should know by now someone will do the research and toss the real facts in your face. You are the one who makes it easy to do…live and learn, if that’s even possible…and control your anger and your foul mouth, it shows through like the beacon on a lighthouse.

          • eddie47d

            You never stop making up stories do you Jeff. I doubt if you have an honest bone in your body with all your false accusations. I do know what to expect from you so I am not surprised. Yet do you think anybody else on this site cares about your tit for tat BS. You never bring up your own facts so apparently there is little upstairs in that noggin of your. Why do you think you have to borrow from someone else to prove “how smart you are”. Present your own knowledge not some rerun from somebody else.

          • JeffH

            Easy-E, yer makin’ me ROFLMAO…yer killin’ me! By the way, before you get too angry, just what did I say in this or any other comment that was not true? I’ll be waiting patiently for your answer…now don’t let me down… :) You do know, the proof is always in the pudding…Easy-E… :)

          • jibbs

            Where’s the truth, not the facts? just the truth please.

          • jibbs

            Sorry, my post was aimed at 47d & Mark.

          • Dan az

            I understand now where you are coming from eddie,you don’t know how to cut and paste a site to your post.Am I right!Its easy hold down the right button on your mouse and pick book mark and when you post then open your bookmarks and scroll over it and let it go on to your post.Its easy and you wont have to worry now that anyone here will make fun of you anymore. :) ;) ;}

          • eddie47d

            As I said in my post, the U.S. has massively higher handgun murder RATES than the countries I mentioned. Of course, the countries you mentioned are much smaller than the U.S. but this is reflected in the per capital adjusted statistics. Take Great Britain for instance. It has a population of 60 million vs. the U.S. population of 300 million. The U.K. is roughly one fifth the size of the U.S. population So you do the simple calculations. Last year Great Britain, a nation where it is very difficult to get a get, had 112 handgun murders. The U.S. in the same year had 14,016 hand gun murders. So you multiply the 112 British handgun murders by a factor of 5 and come up with 560 handgun murders if the U.K. population was the same size as the U.S. vs. the 14,016 handgun murders in the U.S. So per capita U.S. inhabitants kill their fellow U.S. inhabitants with guns at a rate 25 times higher than British citizens kill their fellow citizens, fully taking into account the population differences. Can you follow that?

          • eddie47d

            Thanks Dan

          • JeffH

            Easy-E says, “As I said in my post, the U.S. has massively higher handgun murder RATES than the countries I mentioned.”

            eddie, that is a “BOLD FACED LIE”. You never mentioned “handguns” in any of your posts before this little arguement started…so why would you LIE about it now? You should know by now that you’ll get caught.

            You wonder why you have no credibility on this board, why nobody believes you? It’s because you constantly say things that are not true…in other words, you tell lies just like the one you just got caught in!

          • eddie47d

            Actually that was Marks post at 11:34am above. I know it it not nice to fool mother nature(or Mother ,in your case,LOL) and I was only testing something and posted wrong. . Should have known you wouldn’t have noticed it was Marks but that is no biggie and I won’t be doing that again.I think you see my name and go ballistic when that comment wasn’t really meant for anyone.

          • JeffH

            Easy-E, the bottom line is that you got caught in a nother lie despite your lame excuse. Excuses are for losers.

      • DaveH

        Mark,
        How long do you think you can just blatantly fabricate facts, and yet expect to maintain your credibility on this board? This isn’t a Liberal blog where you can get away with emotionally-based fabricated facts.

        For anybody who seeks facts, rather than Liberal conjecture:
        http://mises.org/journals/qjae/pdf/qjae7_3_6.pdf

        From the article — “Lott found that national crime rates have fallen as gun ownership has risen and states with the fastest rates of growth in gun ownership had the greatest reductions in crime”

        • DaveH

          Here is an example.
          http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/murder-rates-nationally-and-state

          Note that Vermont, which has had no restrictions on concealed carry ever since I can remember, has one of the lowest murder rates in the Country.

          Also note that the National Rate of Murder (bottom chart) has declined dramatically since 1985 when the states started increasingly adopting shall-carry laws (the right to carry concealed weapons).

          • mark

            I’m not against gun ownership. I also NEVER stated that increased gun ownership doesn’t lower overall crime rates. In some cases this may be true. What I have stated over and over again though no one seems to be listening is that higher gun ownership rates lead to higher gun murder rates. This is something we should all realize as Americans. While we may derive some benefits from the Second Amendment, we also pay a very high price for that amendment by having the highest per capita gun murder rates of all advanced industrial countries in the world – because we have far more guns per capita than any of them – in fact more than all of them combined.

          • DaveH

            You SAY a lot, Mark, but you offer no evidence for your conjecture. I did offer lots of evidence for my beliefs.
            You’re all talk. Typical Liberal.

          • DaveH

            So let’s dissect the words of a typical Liberal.
            Mark says “higher gun ownership rates lead to higher gun murder rates”. As usual, Mark offers no evidence for his beliefs. We’re just supposed to take his word for it.
            And isn’t it convenient that Mark limits the murders to “gun murder”?
            Well, of course, if we had zero guns there would be zero murders by guns. Instead they would use knives, or axes, or clubs, or maybe just death by choke-hold. The less physically robust people may just prefer the “great equalizer” to death by those who are physically more powerful.
            Unfortunately, Mark’s double-speaking wasn’t robust enough for thinking people, as I showed in earlier links that Vermont has very loose gun laws, yet has a very low murder rate. And Arizona, for instance, my home state, which now has unrestricted conceal carry laws, and has had shall-issue laws for many years prior to that, currently has a much lower rate of murder now than just 10 years ago. I don’t give a hoot if the killings are by guns or knives or whatever, the victims are still dead.
            Many of them would still be alive if people like Mark hadn’t made it very difficult for them to protect themselves.

          • eddie47d

            What part of “I’m not against gun ownership” in Marks comment that you didn’t understand Dave. You are saying exactly the opposite of what he said and accusing him of something he didn’t say. You and Jeff do that everyday to someone. That makes neither one of you a straight shooter.

          • Kate8

            mark – People were killing each other long before guns were ever invented. In fact, according to history, there was a great deal of barbarism and brutality. (I think I’d rather be shot than hacked up, if I had to pick.)

            For one thing, if you’re using knives, axes and the like, you pretty much have to go hand-to-hand with an assailant (unless you’re skilled at knife-throwing), and that would surely benefit the physically stronger one. That’s hardly fair.

            So, if I’m being threatened, I’d much rather have a firearm handy. At least I’d have a chance.

            You make no sense. Criminals will always find ways to harm, guns or no guns. And, at this point, restricting guns will only affect the law-abiding people, as crooks don’t care about laws. They’ll keep their guns, you can be sure, and we’ll be defenseless. There is absolutely NO WAY to remove ALL guns, except in your fantasy untopian world. Let’s get real.

          • DaveH

            As usual, Eddie is blowing smoke up my rear. Anybody who reads all of Mark’s comments will know just how full of it you are, Eddie.

          • vicki

            Mark says:
            “While we may derive some benefits from the Second Amendment, we also pay a very high price for that amendment by having the highest per capita gun murder rates of all advanced industrial countries in the world – because we have far more guns per capita than any of them – in fact more than all of them combined.”

            Would it make you feel better if they were stabbed to death instead?
            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate

            The price we pay for the 2nd amendment is having a very low murder rate. As a separate issue the murders that DO occur are done with the most efficient tool.

            Should we also ban cars which are particularly good at getting criminals away from the scene of a crime? Even though they are VERY useful for the law abiding citizen?

        • JeffH

          Dave…and that is a dated article. Gun violence has steadily declined since the expiration of the failed “Assault Weapons Ban”.

          Since the National Instant Criminal Background Check System, or NICS was implemented in 1998 more than 100 million such checks have been made in the last decade, leading to more than 700,000 denials.(according to the FBI)

          Also, according to official FBI and U.S. Department of Justice reports, the rates of violent crime in the U.S. are now at their lowest level in 40 years! Violent crime rates of 2010 were 1/3 the rates of 1994.

          What is not amazing is how little media attention this is drawing.

        • mark

          Anyone can pick and chose an individual state or an individual country to make one’s point. This is called statistical cherry-picking. But in general higher gun ownership means higher gun murder rates with a couple of exceptions like Vermont that has virtually no minority population and a very high per capital income. In England where it is very difficult to get a gun, you have a 25 times less chance of being killed with a handgun than you do in the United States. That’s 25 TIMES LESS. But there are numerous other industrialized country examples The handgun murder rates are also substantially lower in Germany, France, Japan, Holland, Belgium, Ireland, Australia, New Zealand, Switzerland, Spain, Italy Poland, the Czech Republic, you can go on an on and not just cite one U.S. state. These are all countries where it is extremely difficult for an individual citizen to purchase a firearm. The U.S. handgun murder rate of roughly 3.2 per 100,000 is the highest in the advanced industrial world. It is just a statistical fact. And we all know how high our crime rates are compared to the aforementioned countries.

          • JeffH

            mark, mark, mark…yada, yada, yada…

          • eddie47d

            Mark; You’ll get use to their cherry picking isolated incidences when you clearly stated the facts. It’s like when I believe in gun safety and safety within the whole community or country. They immediately call me a gun banner. I have never said that yet they roll with their own preconceived assumptions.

          • JeffH

            …”preconceived assumptions”…Ok, a clear case of the pot calling the kettle…and eddie, stop with the lies. Calling for more “gun laws” is not the same as “gun safety” and you clearly rail for more gun laws.

          • eddie47d

            You know darn well what I said so go take a hike you pathetic,manipulative “jabberwocky”.

          • JeffH

            eddie(the parrot)that’s the point, I do know what you meant and you are a liar! You can run but you can’t hide!

            Getting a bit testy are we eddie?

          • DaveH

            We’re talking about America, Mark. Talking about cherry picking. To compare statistics from other countries is like comparing the actions in a group of Union Members to the actions in a group of Monks.
            You’re mixing apples and oranges, Mark. What else can we expect from a Liberal?
            Jeff and myself are talking about current statistical changes in our own country which can be tied closely to changes in gun laws.
            You disparage the references that we offer as being invalid, yet you expect people to just take your word for what you say. Are you really that ignorant, or are you just practicing?

          • TIME

            mark,

            I have many clients in Austrilia and New Zeland, and oddly again you clearly display you are 100% Clueless. The crime rates have risen yearly in both after their governments outlawed guns.

            Well just how odd is it that folks who live there state the following, Crime in these areas has gone up over 100%.

            RAPE.
            B&E
            Robberies
            Home Invations
            Car theft
            Animial Theft

            Oh and JFTR, the gun deaths to persons who are law abiding folks has rissen, so too have Stabbings, beatings with clubs and or iron bars.

            Man dude your on the right tract take away the guns and let the CRIMINALS have at it on the UN ARMED folks.
            Hey, You should run for Congress, I hear Hank Johnson is thinking about maby not running!

          • DaveH

            And the fact that Eddie agrees with you, “Mark; You’ll get use to their cherry picking isolated incidences when you clearly stated the facts.”, is just more proof that you don’t have a clue.
            Fortunately, the vast majority of people can embrace the real facts, and your kind are losing badly now:
            http://www.kc3.com/CCW_progress.htm

          • DaveH

            Time,
            Another good example is the 9/11 aftermath of our wonderful government disarming airline passengers and turning them into helpless sheep for the terrorists to shear.
            Their blood is on the hands of the Liberals.

          • JOE

            Good point about the minority population, and this should definitely be factored in when considering our handgun murder rate. Our minorities are killing each other off in record numbers (and this accounts for most of the above-mentioned 14,000 figure), and I have a feeling that a gun ban would not stop them from killing one another. There is definitely a cultural malady in our inner cities. I do not attribute this to race, but to inner-city culture, and it is tragic.What is much, much harder to find is the much higher number of rapes, robberies, and murders averted by armed citizens, because the liberal media does a fine job of suppressing this data. You also have to look at how violent crimes with other implements skyroceted in many of those countries following gun bans, especially home invasions (Australia being a most noteworthy example). You also need to gauge and contrast this number against stats for other types of death, and then establish a risk-to-benefit ratio. What you fail to consider is the true importance, intent, and significance of the second amendment. If you truly understand this, it is much easier to understand why relinquishing this right is intolerable for the law-abiding, despite the inevitable deaths (which have their incubus in problems that do not lend themselves to simplistic solutions)

          • DaveH

            Very good, Joe.

          • Kate8

            All of this debate over whether we are safer with or without guns is completely beside the point, anyway.

            The entire objective of gun confiscation is to make us defenseless.

            Always has been.

            The rest is just more meaningless rhetoric.

          • jibbs

            Oh boy, how about a little research on your part, maybe try using some recent info. with a link to where you found it. I’ll bet that your eye’s are brown. Mark, you and 47d seem to think you are the elite smart one’s here……I think you both should quit lying to us and yourself. Why is it that you feel you are smarter that the rest? Please, please provide the truth, not facts.

            I try not to say anything if I’m not sure of the truth, and if I’m wrong and I am corrected, I do my best to verify and retain the truth and do my own research. Another thing, I also come here to learn from like minded people, but both of you come here to spread bullsh&t and or lie just to be heard.

            Think about this, you two have been “had” by the government and msm.
            When the feed truck arrive’s with your bale of hay, be careful….I might of pee’d on it.

          • vicki

            Here Mark. No cherry picking. I even didn’t cherry pick GUN murders.

            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate

      • DaveH

        Even if the facts did not squarely fall on the side of Pro Gun, Government has no right to restrict people from being able to exercise their Natural Right to defend themselves vigorously.

        • vicki

          With the best tools for the job.

      • Elevenarrows

        Actually, Mark, every study I’ve ever read shows that gun ownership by a populace lowers crime rates. By the way, you might enjoy reading about some of the tragedies that have happened to normal, decent, peace-loving British citizens who have attempted to defend themselves against evil. The victim was sent to prison for shooting (in his home) a violent criminal…that had robbed him multiple times! The criminal’s family put a hit order on the victim…No thanks, Mark. We can all watch your philosophy play out in other anti-gun countries and I don’t think I like what I see. Anyone peaceful is welcome at my farm…anyone coming to do harm will catch lead…from all 13 of us.

        • mark

          Right but it doesn’t lower the gun murder rate, more gun ownership increases that rate. I don’t know about you but if I have a choice between being robbed or killed, I will chose being robbed. You get that luxury in England, in the U.S. you get robbed AND killed.

          • DaveH

            You keep repeating that same tired conjecture, Mark. Do you think if you repeat it often enough people will start believing it? You’re at the wrong site for that tactic. We’re thinking people here, who like to see evidence presented, not just the word of a Liberal (which isn’t worth much).
            I posted a link to prove you’re wrong. Here it is again:
            http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/murder-rates-nationally-and-state

          • DaveH

            And here’s a companion link for those who want to compare the states in the murder-rate chart to those states who have adopted Shall-Issue laws (most of them now):
            http://www.kc3.com/CCW_progress.htm

      • vicki

        Mark writes:
        “Everyone in Colombia has a gun too, in fact an AK-47, and they’re doing just great! ”

        I’m not sure you have been to Colombia recently Mark. If you had you would surly have noticed quite a few folk not carrying guns. You know, the peasants.

        WARNING: Dangerous Facts Ahead.

        “The rate of private gun ownership in Colombia is 5.92 firearms per 100 people” http://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/region/colombia

        “The rate of private gun ownership in the United States is 88.82 firearms per 100 people” http://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/region/united-states

        • Dan az

          Viki
          Another thing that he forgets is the shootings that have happened recently here and abroad that if there had been people carrying the number of deaths would have been down.Even in states that have carry laws not all people carry!But after the recent advents I would think that more will be carrying for now on.

          • vicki

            If I lived in Arizona I might not have carried but after the shooting of the Congresswoman I would certainly start. Especially since the Arizona government has realized the meaning of “..shall NOT be infringed” and that it applies to ALL government, not just a specific government body.

  • http://www.easyinvest.co.za peter

    We are all worrying for nothing. Superman has not given up his US citizenship and is not planning going anywhere. He is sitting in the White House right now, planning his next move, which will set us all back some but save the USA! Hooray for Superman!

    • DaveH

      After all the wealth has been redistributed, and the takers have consumed it, then what?
      Exactly what in your Utopian Society is going to drive people to do the sacrificing, risk-taking, and hard work that it takes to create wealth and a prosperous Society?

      • Old Henry

        DaveH:

        I THINK peeter was being sarcastic. At least I hope (hate using that word anymore) that he was.

        • DaveH

          Hope and Dream. And don’t use that word Hate, Henry. LOL.

  • Pathfinder

    As a Cuban refugee once pointed out to Ronald Reagan, when Cuba fell to communism, he escaped to America. If America falls; there will be no safe place to run to. We must maintain freedom here; otherwise, there will be no freedom anywheere on the face of the earth.

    • mark

      No, there are actually numerous functioning and attractive democracies around the world besides the United States: Canada, the UK, France, Germany, Ireland, Sweden, Norway, Switzerland, Finland, Holland, Belgium, Costa Rica, Japan, South Korea, Taiwan, Singapore, etc. There is always this tendency to among many American to believe that their country is the only nation on earth worth living in and that every other nation on Earth is some kind of a garbage dump-hell-on-earth-prison camp. Quite the contrary there are actually higher life expectancies, better technology, and equal or even higher standards of living in several of the nations listed above. This myopic enthnocentrism (which is also evident in other countries to be fair) comes from the fact that so few Americans have ever lived for an extended period outside the United States and fewer Americans still can speak another language besides English. We see ourselves as the world. We’re the best, to hell with the rest. This arrogance has not made us many friends.

      • eddie47d

        You are mostly correct Mark. It’s wonderful to have pride in ones nation but not to the point of excluding what other countries have to offer. We loose out in the best of “both worlds”. Why has America stagnated while a few other countries have grown? We should be firm in our heritage (Constitution) yet open to what works best in these other nations. We have more equality in America than many countries so America is definitely worth fighting for.

        • Nadzieja Batki

          What exactly works better in those other nations?

          • Dale on the left coast

            Nanny state Socialist . . . . LOL

            Mark . . . crime rates in Britain have been rising since they collected all the hunting rifles back in the 90′s, over 150 gangs in greater London alone . . . guns don’t kill people . . . people kill people.

          • mark

            They have lower crime rates, lower handgun murder rates, many have better health care reflected in their higher life expectancy statistics. Some of these nations have less pollution, better public transport, more fuel efficient cars and busses, more modern and efficient office building, apartment complexes, state-of-the art hospitals. Much nicer prisons also! They have much more vacation time than U.S. workers have. Some of this will of course have to be cut back due to the current recession and fiscal crisis. Similar cutbacks face Americans who do not have anywhere near as generous benefits. Europeans live well – and longer. That is why they like their system and do not want to mimic the U.S. system even if theirs means higher taxes, more regulation, and less fiscal growth. Good luck to them! I prefer to live in the United States myself but I am not one of those Americans who thinks that our system should be forced upon the rest of the world because we think it is the best.

          • vicki

            mark says:
            “They ( Brittan ) have lower crime rates, lower handgun murder rates, many have better health care reflected in their higher life expectancy statistics.”

            Then why are you still here? I have heard that London is particularly safe this month.

          • JeffH

            mark, here’s some ineresting info on Britain’s violent crime.

            Handgun owners were given a February 1998 deadline to turn in their firearms–and they did. The UK was supposed to become a much safer place–but dramatic increases in crime following the gun ban proved it didn’t.

            A July 3, 2009, Daily Mail article reported that “Britain’s violent crime record is worse than any other country in the European Union, it has been revealed. Official crime figures show the U.K. also has a worse rate for all types of violence than the U.S. and even South Africa.”

            Britain’s violent crime record is worse than any other country in the European union, it has been revealed. Official crime figures show the UK also has a worse rate for all types of violence than the U.S. and even South Africa – widely considered one of the world’s most dangerous countries.

            The Tories said Labour had presided over a decade of spiralling violence.
            In the decade following the party’s election in 1997, the number of recorded violent attacks soared by 77 per cent to 1.158million – or more than two every minute.
            The figures, compiled from reports released by the European Commission and United Nations, also show:

            The UK has the second highest overall crime rate in the EU.

            It has a higher homicide rate than most of our western European neighbours, including France, Germany, Italy and Spain.

            The UK has the fifth highest robbery rate in the EU.

            It has the fourth highest burglary rate and the highest absolute number of burglaries in the EU, with double the number of offences than recorded in Germany and France.

            But it is the naming of Britain as the most violent country in the EU that is most shocking. The analysis is based on the number of crimes per 100,000 residents.

            In the UK, there are 2,034 offences per 100,000 people, way ahead of second-placed Austria with a rate of 1,677.

            The U.S. has a violence rate of 466 crimes per 100,000 residents, Canada 935, Australia 92 and South Africa 1,609.

            http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1196941/The-violent-country-Europe-Britain-worse-South-Africa-U-S.html#ixzz1Ux1X1HMh

      • DaveH

        Leave it to Mark to talk about a “functioning” UK, right after I linked to an article showing otherwise. Do some reading, Mark. Quit listening to the MSM talking points.

        • mark

          Sure parts of the UK just got through some awful riots. There have never been violent riots in the United States?!!!! Please. Note how low the death rate in the London riots were. These people don’t have guns.

          • DaveH

            Mark,
            Is that all you got from the article? Or did you even read it?

          • vicki

            Hey mark. Whats the death rate in the violent riots you say have happened in the US in recent years? If you like you can include subdivisions of what tool was used to cause the deaths but no cherry picking just gun deaths.

          • vicki

            No real surprise that I do not hear a response from mark.

      • DaveH

        The only thing myopic here, Mark, is your narrow viewpoint.
        “higher life expectancies, better technology, and equal or even higher standards of living”.
        All of the above, Mark, are easy to say. It would be much harder to back up that conjecture. I notice that you don’t bother posting any references to back up your comments (ever?rarely?).
        And above all, even if what you say is true, how would any of that negate striving for betterment?

        • JeffH

          DaveH, I thinkto progressives, conjecture is considered a reference…afterall, they do believe what they say…

          • eddie47d

            …..apparently you don’t believe in what You say then with that analogy!

          • DaveH

            Another witless comment by the Troll Eddie.

          • JeffH

            DaveH, eddie’s mouth is kind of like a backhoe…the more he runs it the deeper he digs his hole…and have you ever hear of a backhoe making any sense? Me neither!

          • eddie47d

            Your words Jeff; Bla,Bla,Blaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!

          • JeffH

            eddie, thanks again the verification.

      • TIME

        mark,

        All the BS you have posted clearly displays you have never even been out of the USA.

  • Wyldman

    Superman’s own words belie the belief that there is anywhere to run to. It has basicly come down to fight or die, now. There is nowhere left to run to that hasn’t been infected by this “entitled” mindset. The few places that aren’t so dominated are totalitarian socialist states or fascist middle eastern states.

    We are surrounded.

    • Leona

      You are dead on, once America goes..that’s it.

      • mark

        What’s it? First of all America is not going to fall anytime in the near future. And second of all if it did “fall,” whatever that means, hundreds of millions of us would still live here under more circumscribed economic conditions. The good thing would be we wouldn’t have to keep fighting these endless, mindless wars anymore if we were no longer a first-rate power. And as I say there are lots of other great places to live besides the United States. Get over this ridiculous notion that WE ARE THE WORLD and that if anything bad happens to us it is the end of Creation. The world functioned for millions of years before the United States was founded and it will no doubt function for millions of years after we are gone. Great Britain is no longer THE NUMBER ONE POWER. But it is still a very decent place to live, I have been there many times, even despite the recent riots in London in which I think 3 people have died, Muslims run over by the rioters. Three people die violently in the U.S. every nano-second!

    • Old Henry

      Wyldman:

      One thing about being surrounded – you don’t need to worry about which way to shoot.

      • mark

        No other nation is shooting at us! We are shooting at them! The Afghanis, the Iraqis, the Yemenis, the Uzbeks, the Pakistanis. We move massive armed forces into their nations and kill them in the thousands. They are not shooting us except to defend themselves from foreign invaders who have travelled ten thousand miles to kill them. Oddly enough many delusional Americans live in irrational fear of other nations. While other nations live in REAL FEAR of the United States, which has a hundred times more technological killing power than any other nation on earth. Over and over again we are the invaders who massively attack other nations who have never launched any attack on our soil, with hundreds of thousands of our U.S. troops. Ask the Koreans, the Vietnamese, the Iraqis, the Libyans and further back in our history: the Mexicans, the Indians, the Cubans, the Puerto Ricans, the Filipinos, the Panamanians, the Hawaiians, etc. With the exceptions of World War II, we are the aggressor nation in most of these conflictS. Over and over again, we deliberately choose war. And quite frankly at this point our mindlesss, never-ending aggression is bankrupting us and destablilizing the world. This is actually one of Ron Paul’s main messages. He has consistently opposed all our current agressions

        • eddie47d

          We certainly aren’t winning many friends by allowing the bodies to pile up in foreign countries. Quite the opposite. We promised ourselves years ago if we ever get into another war it will be quick and decisive with immediate withdrawal. The Gulf War came close but ended up creating more problems and further expansion.The American people are told we are “fighting for freedom” yet the Middle East wars prove we have no clear vision. Fighting for freedom has lost it’s luster since any country we go into should be fighting for their own freedom.We can’t do it for them.

        • Think about it

          Government’s and( The very very rich and powerfull )start war’s for Power, All Government’s not just our’s

        • http://personalliberty.com/wildhorses-and-blackswans Marty

          My goodness, Mark….you’ve been busy reading the biased, doctored, and mostly, lies, that our “bought
          and paid for” news media puts out. You might want to do some research regarding the countries you
          mention whereby our brave soldiers fought and died to liberate them from tyranny. Watch some old news
          clips that show the crowds of cheering, laughing and crying citizens of those countries we liberated and
          see the paths of our tanks rolling into Paris, strewn with flowers, Read Winston Churchill’s impassioned
          pleas to the US to come to England’s aid….read and watch visual proof of our troops arriving in Germany
          and the liberation of those prisoners in concentration labor camps…read books like Corrie Ten Boom’s
          account of the inhumane treatment. Read how South Korea loved Americans for freeing them from the
          savagery of the communist North Koreans. Look at Iraq, Afghanistan and others that were being invaded
          by Russia and overrun with Muslim tyranny…..understand our sacrifices in lives…..find out how time and
          time again the United States has gone back and rebuilt cities that were devastated in the fight for the
          right of their peoples to live free instead of under dictators that murdered millions of their own people
          outright as in many of the countries you so glibly mention. Get your facts, Mark, if, in fact, you are
          wanting the truth. If not, keep on repeating the lies that are proven wrong….there is plenty of evidence
          that proves the truth…IF you REALLY want to know. I am sick of people like you, loaded with hate for the country you live in, tell the same lies over and over again! There’s an old c&w song…..America, Love It or Leave It….and as a TRUE American, I, and many others, will be happy to help you pack!

          • mark

            Except for the Second World War which I mentioned very clearly as an exception in my post, many of the inhabitants of these countries would just as soon we never “helped” them: the Vietnameses, Iraqis, Libyans, Afghanis, Pakastanis, Filipinos, Panamanians, Hawaiians, Indians, Mexicans, etc. A huge proportion of them saw us unwanted invaders which in most cases we were.

          • moonbeam

            Actually, Mark is right. This government has consistently picked fights and committed home invasions of other nations. The people of the mentioned nations have the responsibilities of fighting their own battles, just we had to do over here. It is not our business to be there fighting their causes. If they want change they must do it themselves.

            Our government says we are fighting for our freedom and protection. Doesn’t make sense we are doing it on foreign soil. When they say “protecting our interests” they are referring to the oil that doesn’t even belong to us. Again, our government is being the big bully of the world forcing their will upon others. Makes me wonder who the real terrorists are.

            Don’t be surprised of the world of nations points all their bombs our way. How else do you put a stop to a bully?

            Iraq has given notice they want the US out of their country and with quickness.

            What would you do if I invaded your home, terrorized everybody in the house, waving all kinds of guns around, shooting, killing, raping folks and refused to leave? You wouldn’t take to kindly to that. You would do whatever you had to do to get me out wouldn’t you? Of course you would. You’d be looking for a way to cut my neck off and rightly so.

            And so it is with the US government. They are in somebody else’s house where they are not wanted, told to leave and refuse to do so.

            Our troops are only doing their jobs at the behest of our gov’t and paying the ultimate exorbitant price. We The People don’t want our sons and daughters over there either. We want them HOME with us where they belong.

            Billions upon Billions of taxpayer dollars are being spent monthly to fight a fight that is not ours. Just think how it would be if we got our nose out of other people’s back yard and spent that money on building our own nation’s infrastructure, creating jobs, drilling our own oil and manufacturing our own products.

            Oh my, did I just describe Utopia?

        • moonbeam

          Ever notice these are all people of color????

          • mark

            Of course and the majority like all peoples of color were the victims of Western Imperialism: in these cases the sub-branch of it: U.S. Imperialism

  • SMSgt Z retired Nam 68

    Timely Information ?

    February 2007
    The nickel produced by the U.S. Mint with a face value of $.05 now has a metal value above $.075 following today’s record nickel close on the NYMEX today

    • Capitalist at Birth

      It is my understanding that the new nickles have less of the metal than older nickles. Is that not true?

      • s c

        Capitalist, every new coin has its own tale to tell. The basic message is a two-parter. First, what you see might look good, but something is also hidden in its appearance. Second, it’s what you don’t see that’s worth much more than the face value.
        For any progressives in the crowd, a) never invest in looks. Trust SUBSTANCE (true worth). Second, now that OUR money is worthless, are you feeling a bit insecure? Do you still have faith in those who gave us this brave new world? If you get to vote again, THINK.
        Fight or flight is more than just words. It may be America’s new survival motto.

        • Dan az

          sc
          So true!

  • Cliffystones

    The folks who talk about leaving the US are deluded IMO. Sure, places like Costa Rica, Belize, etc. may seem attractive now. But if and when this country totally falls apart I fear any American living abroad is going to see a different attitude displayed toward their presence.

  • http://aol.com sean murrey ILLInio

    Hell i rather fight than run away.

  • Lou A

    I experienced freedom for the first time at the age of 13 when I first arrived to the USA from Cuba. This country embraced me and I was assimmilated into this great free culture. I will make a stand with my fellow Americans and fight, the future of our children depends on it

    • JeffH

      Lou, welcome aboard.

  • http://personellibertydigest Marcus

    It is truely unfortunate and profoundly sad that people are even having this discussion ,The majority of the people in Washington DC that have been elected to represent us ,Have not only betrayed us ,But at this very moment are stabbing us in the back at every opportunity ,That of Coarse excludes Comrade Obama ( The Exalted One ) or Barry Soetoro the Indonesian Muslim ,After all he did not win the popular vote ,May not be eligible to hold that office ,Not to mention had to take the oath to office twice ,Which he has violated I`m not sure what the count is up to , 62 or 63 times ,One th8ing is sure this man has an inherrent hatred of this country and will do whatever it takes to destroy this nation ,With the help of the Globalist ,Socialist criminals and gangsters that support him and fund him ,George Soros ,Hugo Chavez ,The Cubans ,Saudis ,Muslim Extrememists ,The Iranian Government ,In short our enemy`s and the people around the world that hate this country and would like to see the United States of America destroyed wan`t nothing more then to see Barack Hussein Obama /Barry Soetoro get re-elected to further his agenda and our demise

    • James in NY

      How is it that Obama did not win the popular vote in 2008?

      • truthseeker

        Didja ever hear of voter fraud…with the computer system of counting, there is no doubt there is a huge possibility of voter fraud, and then you also have ACORN (under a new name for signin’ up Mickey to vote), and never underestimate the power of those doing their best to destroy our country as we once knew it, and seeing how far “they” have come in three measly yrs. It is already all out war, but its from the inside out, and really hard to fight when those making the rules are the ones that rule!! There is no place to run, and the individual gets crushed by the machine if they stand up to the regime. “Right” is right and left is wrong. Those of the left do not want the same America as those of the “Right”. They could care less about all the people who have given their lives for the RIGHT TO BE FREE! Ignorance is bliss, and there are a lot of blissful beings out there thinking “our leader” is lookin’ out for them!! What a joke! “Our leader” was chosen by George Soros to destroy America, and now we are reaping the reality of letting our guard down, and we true Americans are in deep doody because we had such notions as, “This could never happen in America!” Well, guess what, it has! The truth definitely hurts sometimes, and this is one of those times, that’s for sure….now, I’m off to the bank to get some nickels!! All is not well in what once was Paradise. GOD BLESS AMERICA, AND HELP US TAKE HER BACK AND KEEP HER FREE, IN CHRIST’S NAME I PRAY.

        • James in NY

          Some sort of voter fraud can and always will exist. Voter fraud can occur on both sides with some people being denied the right to vote and others who don’t have the right to vote being able to vote or voting twice. But the numbers in 2008 were too big to say voter fraud stole the election from McCain/Palin. Think back almost 3 years ago when in September and October 2008, the Dow Jones went into freefall and the viability of our entire banking system was questioned. This cost the Republicans the presidency because of a sense Bush had failed. I was worse off in November 2008 than I was in November 2000. This was true for many people. People wanted change. We will have another election in 15 months to see what people think of that change. No matter what we are all Americans. We have different views of what it means to be an American but I don’t believe any party is out to destroy our great country and what it stands for. I do worry about some who hate Obama so much that they want nothing but failure in the next 15 months so that Obama is not reelected. I was not the biggest fan of George W. Bush. But I certainly did not wish to see what happened to our country in the 2nd 1/2 of 2008 which caused defeat for Republicans. Try to see through your paranoia there bud. Enjoy your weekend.

          • eddie47d

            Truthseeker;”The Right is right and the Left is wrong” and Marcus “Comrade Obama”. Are you two extremists in the same pot? Marcus being more so. If Republicans/Right love America so much why do you expend so much energy trying to tear it down with little vision and negative comments and negative solutions?

          • JeffH

            …”with little vision and negative comments and negative solutions”

            ROFLMAO again! Never ceases to amaze…WOW!

          • Ed Herold

            Few people realize that for 6 yrs of Bush we had a fair economic status. It was the last two years that things fell apart, this was when Obama became a Senator, the Dems took over both house and Senate & Spent money wildly. Bush attempted to stop or slow them down but Reid & Nancy would not hear of it and Obama was for all the spending. Obama is continually blames Bush on his problems but in reality he had a big part in causing the problems. Bush on about 18 occasions questioned Dodd & Frank as to home loans problems – they both were recieving monies from Freddie May & Mac along with Obama — It’s all come homing to them

          • eddie47d

            Jeff; Like your never ending negative rebuttals and usually no solutions. Maybe you got a A in school for being a butt and are trying to carry it forward.

          • JeffH

            eddie(the hypocrit)is still a bit testy. :)

          • Karolyn

            eddie’s right, Jeff. We never hear positivity out of any of the conservatives, libertarians or republicans. Everything is moan, moan, complain, complain. “Woe is me.” “The sky is falling.” That negative energy is doing a good job.

          • JeffH

            Gee Karolyn, why does that not surprise me…two delusional people don’t make a right…

          • eddie47d

            …and you think you constent negativity is getting it right Jeff??

          • Kate8

            karolyn – But what we complain about is the increasing tyranny of government, primarily Leftist (whether D or R), and what we see it doing to our world.

            Of course you don’t complain about that, since you support it!

            But the excuses being used are things like climate change, over-population, plastic bags, taking baths, using TP, yada yada yada. Every little thing that makes life better. It’s always how living well is killing the planet, how dire things are for her, and we must give up our comfort and accept austerity to save her, including reducing our numbers.

            So, give me a break. We’d all be thrilled just to have our freedom to live our lives without government breathing down our necks and trying to take away what we’ve spent our lives working for. You bet we complain.

            That is just NOT acceptable.

          • JeffH

            eddie, this has nothing to do with “negativity” and everything to do with your hypocricy…Do you ever look in the mirror before you speak? Didn’t thimk so!

          • Karolyn

            But, Kate, what freakin’ good does complaining do? It makes one more part of the problem rather than part of the solution. Studies have shown just how much influence human emotion has on everything. Have you ever seen the studies does on water molecules by Dr. Emoto? http://www.rootsandrooted.org/?p=229 Freaky as many may think, it’s true. Our emotions affect EVERYTHING, including the earth’s electro-magnetic field.

          • Kate8

            Yeah, karolyn, I know about Dr. Emoto and the water molecules, and lots of other stuff, too.

            How about this: the Christian Right takes over and FORCES you to attend church twice a week, tithe 10% of your income (before taxes, which you must also pay), wear your skirts no shorter than mid-knee, high necks, long sleeves…

            You MUST send your children to church schools, sex outside of marriage is FORBIDDEN and penalized, you may not wear jewelry or cut your hair…shall I go on?

            I’d love to see how positive, bright and bouncy you’d be.

            You’d feel as resentful as heck. No one likes having other’s ideologies FORCED on them.

            It’s always different when the shoe’s on the other foot, huh?

          • eddie47d

            Look in the mirror Jeff you have become the king of Hypocrites with Dave H coming in second. Now you can see for yourself how childish your bla bla bla responses are.Think it will soak in now!

          • JeffH

            Easy-E, was that a baaa or a mehhh? Sorry I have to ask but I don’t speak sheeple. By the way, did you get a new bell? You had a different one on yesterday…I think the new one has a much better tone to it…nice collar too…new also?

          • Karolyn

            Kate – As always: “Yeah, but” which is no answer. We can’t have it both ways – Complain and be negative and expect good outcomes.

          • DaveH

            Yes, Kate, you must learn how to be positive like Karolyn. Smile when you help yourself to other peoples’ money, like Karolyn. Be Positive.

          • Kate8

            DaveH – :)

          • Kate8

            Ahhh, karolyn. I see you’re learning Alinsky.

            You failed to address my point and threw up a smokescreen.

            Cloud the issue. Ridicule.

            You just made yourself even less credible, if that’s possible.

          • Karolyn

            Kate – Alinsky-Shmalinsky! I have no knowledge of his tactics other than what I’ve read here. You have a point; and of course, I do not want to live under tyranny. However, I do not expect the horrors that you predict, so it is not in my thinking process. Yes, it concerns me about many of the restrictions that have been placed on us; and I will do whatever is possible to stop further encroachment, especially when it comes to caring for our own bodies. I live in an extremely independent state and am not worried about SC going the way of California. (It’s too far to the other extreme.) I’ve already said that I would support Ron Paul or someone like him. We really do have much more in common than you appear to believe.

          • eddie47d

            I see more Alinsky tactics (as described by Jeff) from Conservatives than I have from Liberals.

          • JeffH

            Easy-E, can you be a little more specific? Just because you say it (ala Alinsky) doesn’t make it true. Remember 20 – 0?

          • Kate8

            karolyn – You don’t have to have studied Aliksky to practice his tactics.

            They’ve been used by spoiled children for all time.

          • eddie47d

            I always suspected Jeff of being a spoiled child and now it is verified.

    • Ret

      Sad isn’t it. My grandfather was at Normandy, an uncle in the South Pacific, a cousin in Korea, others in Viet Nam, Desert Storm, etc, for what? An alien president, rumors of an executive order to let all the illegal voters become legal voters in spite of the fact that congress has voted it down so far, and citizens don’t want it. Money printed like toilet paper, houses being demolished by banks and donating the land to cities…

      • mark

        All that illegal alien voting is worse than just a rumor. It is an outright political lie designed to frigthen and demoralize people. And it is suceeding like so many of the lies on the internet that gullible people swallow wholesale without even questioning such ludicrous tripe.

      • Karolyn

        Ridiculous rumors cause so many problems. They create fear, which in turn creates more problems. People are sheep. Look at the Stock Market going up and down. If more people had the courage to stand their ground, that wouldn’t happen. Fear and greed are the biggest causes of the world’s ills.

        BTW, the latest good news is that call centers are returning to the US at a rapid rate! They employ 100s of people at each center. Every little bit helps! :-)

        • Song

          And the U.S. Postal Service just announced their intentions of laying of 100,000 employees!

          • Karolyn

            Yep, Song, just keep that negativity going. You just don’t get it!

          • Song

            karoylyn it is you who just “don’t get it” There is something called REALITY which you apparently checked out of a long time ago. If you don’t like the dose of reality on this board, why do you come here? F. Fact Check: Because you can be just as negative as anyone else on this board. Fact Check #2: Reality is not negativity…it simply IS.

          • DaveH

            No, Karolyn, you just don’t get it. You are being negative right now by condescending Song. As if your talking about being positive somehow makes you superior. Time for another look in your magic mirror.

          • Kate8

            karolyn – If someone is breaking into your house, do you think that if you just stay positive and ignore them they’ll go away or, at least, won’t harm you?

            Let me know how that works out for ya.

          • Karolyn

            Kate – Don’t be ridiculous! Of course, if I was ever faced with such a situation, I would defend myself! I live by myself, have two large dogs and just took a self-defense class through my job (almost a requirement). Not that I anticipate that being the case. Even considering that it might happen is inviting it to happen (law of attraction), so I do not consider it.

          • Kate8

            Well, karolyn, our nation is being invaded and overthrown.

            Before anyone can act, we need to spread the information so enough people KNOW WHAT’S GOING ON.

            The whole idea of only thinking positive thoughts is to distract us from seeing the truth. It doesn’t work, anyway, because we live in a dual reality, and any repressed negative energies are damaging to our bodies. While we don’t want to make them our sole focus, we MUST acknowledge them or they will get trapped and wreak havoc. Eventually they do come out, so it’s better to observe them and make them useful so they can pass through without sticking.

            If the facts are that negative forces are afoot, it is not negative thinking to see them. It’s called “discernment”.

          • Dan az

            Karolyn
            I lived through the sixties too,And understand where your line of thinking is coming from.I would like to ask you what type of acid did you do to much of?was it orange sunshine?Natural man?or the good ol lsd?I always wondered what would happen to the mind if you stayed on it too long.Now I know!I know those thoughts and they are not realistic to reality but it would be nice.It’s hard to come to reality because its not the place where you are now and is very harsh to deal with.You need to understand we are all in very big trouble right now and we need your support in this reality.I’m not making fun of your way of thinking but its time to come down to earth and wake up to this reality that we are in trouble its not being negative when its facts and saying things in this reality is not going to create it or prolong it but the opposite is here and we need to do something about it now.avoiding it is not going to make it go away.

          • Dan az

            Kate
            That’s what I like about you,Straight talk know BS and have a way with words that always make perfectly good sense!Both you and Viki are assets to this site and hope to have you around for as long as we are still able to spread the word.Thank you both!

          • Karolyn

            Dan & Kate – I Get It! Yes, recognize what’s wrong, but don’t perpetuate it by spreading rumors and beating it to death. What’s wrong with noticing and capitalizing on anythin good that might be happening. I very rarely see anything good posted here unless it is what you might consider being good as something bad happening to a liberal. Contrary to what you might think (and I’ve said this before), I learn a lot here; however, I don’t believe everything I read here or anywhere. I do use discernment, given my point of view. What does anybody gain by demonizing whole segments of the population? I don’t live in a bubble and never have. My life hasn’t exactly been a bowl of cherries, but I got through everything with my optimism, despite all the cynics and naysayers and ended up on my feet every time.

            Why do I post here? It’s a challenge. What fun is it preaching to the choir? You don’t have to read my posts if you don’t want to. Make fun of me if it makes you feel good. I really don’t care. It’s just pointless and reflects back on the poster.

            And despite what Dave has posted, I really do not believe myself to be superior to anybody. Why am I even bothering to write this? Got me. It’s hard to get people to understand this way, but I will keep trying because I guess I care and do feel deeply about what I “believe.” Nobody says anything about the posters who quote the Bible.

          • Kate8

            karolyn – Most of us here post about issues.

            You tend to post about yourself and your NewAge philosophies, or to criticize us for being “negative”, in your view.

            No one minds you stating your stance on things, however liberal it may be. I think I speak for many when I say that it’s your preaching we object to, over and over. We get it. We are not children.

            I think you are well-meaning. It’s just that, if you continue to lecture us about our discussions, you will continue to get the same reaction.

          • Kate8

            Dan az – Thanks, and vice versa.

          • Karolyn

            Kate said: “I think you are well-meaning.”

            I thank you for that Kate, because it is the truth. I also wanted to point out that when I do include links that I think are pertinent, most of the time no one even reads them; and they are not necessarily really left-leaning but rather more middle-of-the-road or even right-leaning types of articles. Volatile, hateful rhetoric from both sides of the fence strongly turns me off, and I hear it more from the right, probably because the only other site I visit is Common Dreams, which is not particularly extreme.

            “If we do not change our direction, we are likely to end up where we are headed.” – Ancient Chinese Proverb

          • DaveH

            “most of the time no one even reads them”. You know this how, Karolyn?
            Are you projecting?

          • Karolyn

            Well, nobody eve comments on them, Dave. Actually, Raggs commented on one in this discussion but only to call me out, and all I did was post the link about 81 reps going to Israel on our dime to be wined and dined with their spouses. Now what’s up with that? I thought it was an enlightening story. Well, maybe it didn’t have to do with this particular discussion; however, most of these discussions go off into different areas anyway.

  • bob wire

    I must confess, I don’t keep up with him anymore after enjoy his exploits for many years Chip.

    The earth is a tiny place if you look at the fact ~ the US test flew a Mach 20 aircraft two day ago or that a mere 80 miles above us that is someone looking down and can see the whole one side of the earth in a single view.

    But if you are in a 32 sailboat, 75 mile of of the Horn, taking on 55ft side seas the world looks pretty big.

    Good fences make for good neighbors is my thoughts on the matter.

  • Norma

    Plan for the future save your nickles and invest in other precious metals BUY LEAD support the 2nd Amendment

  • dan

    too old to run … First they come with the SWAT teams for the organic farmers markets selling unprocessed/whole milk and then home schooled
    kids to make sure they’re shot up with big-pharma drugs…busting lemonade stands and molesting children and the weak at airports…
    WHEN exactly will we begin to fight ? What would Patton do ?

    • Think about it

      I’m with you dan, this Government has already passed the point of no return, it’s no longer a matter of (if) we will have to fight, but when.

  • bob wire

    WoW Chip, I just read though the thread ~ . I wonder, are you ever surprised with peoples reaction to your thread topic?

    I’d think that you might feel much like a zoo keeper at feeding time, each offering their best and worst while locked behind containment.

    • Al Sieber

      Well then bob wire which animal are you at this zoo?

      • JeffH

        Al…the Jabberwocky!

        • eddie47d

          No offense Bob Wire but I must admit Jeff, you did hit my funny bone. Thanks for the chuckle.

        • Al Sieber

          Good one Jeff, I was trying to think of one all day at work.

  • Old Henry

    Scary thought Chip, that those “in charge” think we are on the Titanic.

    I’ll stay and fight Too old to move and there has been too much blood shed and too many sacrifices made creating, building and maintaining the country. Besides, you can run, but you can’t hide.

    I think I would choose John Wayne, Patton and Molotov Cocktail.

    • JeffH

      OH, “I think I would choose John Wayne, Patton and Molotov Cocktail.”

      I’m with you on all counts…maybe we could poole our ammo…223,9mm & 12 gauge. Save the 22LR for food and little varmints…?

      • Old Henry

        Little vermits JeffH? Ya mean like small-statured communists? LOL!

        • JeffH

          OH, works for me… :)

    • jibbs

      Don’t forget the Magnificent Seven!

      • JeffH

        Right on… :)

    • Elevenarrows

      Let’s not forget, Old Henry, that the Titanic was advertised as a ship that even God Himself could not sink. I think that might have been the reason she hit that iceberg…and the water-tight compartments filled…and the rivets failed…

      Reminds me of the verse in Scripture that talks about God cursing those that curse Israel and blessing those who bless her.

      I think our leaders’ arrogance, judicial activism, and an apathetic, godless populace are probably behind America’s woes. We can’t throw God out of schools and refuse to acknowledge Him in the public arena while calling good everything He calls bad and still expect Him to preserve us as a nation. Our family is praying God will spare America because of the small, faithful remnant that still seeks to obey Him.

      • Old Henry

        Elevenarrows, that was very well stated! And very sobering.

        I remember when, as a child, prayer was removed from our schools. The minister of our congregation prdicted that due to this our nation would experienced much of what is now taking place. He was a brilliant man and always had an ora about him.

  • J.M.R.

    good prints gang and i’m with you. locked and koaded

    • J.M.R.

      must do a better job of proof reading koaded=loaded

      • Think about it

        LOL, We know what you mean Bro.

  • DaveH

    I admire New Zealand from afar, but I’m too old to pull up roots and start over:
    http://www.heritage.org/index/Country/NewZealand

    • kenny

      i would be willing to bet that you aren’t too old.

  • DaveH

    Chile seems like it would be a great location, at least geographically. And I admire how far they have come in the direction of economic freedom, but it may be too much of a culture shock for me even if I wasn’t too old to move:
    http://www.heritage.org/index/Country/Chile

  • DaveH

    Overall though, given our history of Freedom-loving people, I think the best thing we can do is to try to reacquaint our people with the concepts of Freedom. There were mistakes, which we can and should avoid, but overall the founders of this country were on the right track. They were right especially about the dangers of Centralized Government and about the dangers of Centralized Banks, and about the dynamic prosperity that was brought about by strongly-protected property rights and Free Markets.
    There is no more prosperous system than Free Trade with Government’s only involvement being to punish Fraudulent Operators, protect us from the force of others, protect our property rights, and leave us alone to voluntarily trade, work, and form business associations.
    Government must not be allowed to pick winners and losers. That is the root of corruption. And we must not allow Government to educate our children. If we do, what else can we expect than for them to propagandize our children to love Big Government?

    • JeffH

      DaveH, very well said…as usual.

      • jibbs

        Hey JeffH
        Did you get my reply to your Q’s about Mo. from two days ago?
        If you like you can send me an email for more info.
        airventure@live.com

        • JeffH

          jibbs, sure did and even posted a response…I’ll send you a private response through my email…Thanks buddy.

    • Think about it

      We have one big problem DaveH, Our teen’s, 20 and 30 year old’s have been so badly brain washed thru schooling that i think it would be next to impossible to open there eye’s to what a great and free Country the USA really is or should i say was. We truely have a lost generation comeing up after us, it seems that they don’t believe in hard work to get something, it’s almost as if it’s owed to them now days.

      • Elevenarrows

        Have some faith, Think About It. Thankfully, there are hundreds of thousands of home-educated kids coming along. Many of them come from conservative, patriotic homes. We’ve already seen great success through some of their efforts with Generation Joshua, aiding good candidates, jamming White House switchboards, persuading Congressmen to see the RIGHT side of things, etc. We have to revolutionize this country…one family at-a-time. I’m doing my part…how about the rest of you?

        • kenny

          those hundreds of thousands of home school kids are unfortunately going to work for the kids, that “think about it says” are coming.

          • DaveH

            More than likely, it will be the other way around, Kenny.

    • kenny

      like mostly everyone else, the founding fathers missed the point. the problems we are facing will not be solved by trying to change the gov’t, or being wary of big government. not as long as the gov’t is being controlled by behind the scenes elites.

      • DaveH

        Sure they can be, Kenny. How are those behind-the-scenes elites going to do us any harm without the Complicity of Big Government? If we get Government out of the Marketplace, the Crony Capitalists will be neutered.

  • Bert Cundle

    Introduce Super Man… To Super Gal… We will see who is boss!

  • joe

    let’s go back to basic, america belong to anyone who respect our culture,and our way of life,why don’t we spend our $ here, invest in our american companys,lets find a way to make illegal pay taxes and support our country, AMERICA is not for people that refuse to learn our language,we don’t have to change our way (including press 1 for English )respect is what make us grow,AMERICA love it or go back to where you came from.
    we are not running anywhere

  • armyblue

    Been through tough times before. Why should we get out? Bloods flowed so that we can have these freedoms, if you go to another country you’ll see a lot more chaos. Besides, that’s why we’re allowed to defend ourselves and the Brits aren’t.

  • jim capy

    Why has America declined to a state of bankruptcy? We are the world leaders in almost every category, yet we have failed. The very blueprint of this great nation our Constitution has been manipulated and twisted by those who were sworn to protect it. Words are just that Words!

    • truthseeker

      Because that was the “plan” by those able to implement it! Don’t be naive.

  • samuel997

    Where else to go? To South America to where the money is flowing to (and where is going to vanish)? China? Europe? America is the last stand. If America goes to their founding fathers principles of liberal economy, then the globe will have a chance.
    Hearing Kerry, Reid, Barney Frank speaking about the Tea Party movement you learn what you fighting against: You fighting against hypocrisy, you fighting the scum of morality, you are fighting lies.

    • Lost in Paradise

      Samuel997 I sure hope you do not believe what those three tell you.If you do, you must still believe in the tooth fairey, Santa Claus, and a bunch of other fairey tails. Good Grief man grow up!!!!!

  • Capitalist at Birth

    I can’t leave right now, because I have to take care of my parents who are in their late eighties who live in Denver, CO. It is on my radar to leave Missouri and relocate to Montana or Wyoming within the next five years. Chile or Honduras are possibly good second alternatives. I don’t think we can stand up to the military and expect to win.

  • http://moniquer7 Merlin

    Superman may be entertaining but he has always been fantasy.

    • Bert Cundle

      Anyone that fights for Peace, Justice & The American Way… Is one confused person!

      • Lost in Paradise

        That is how they control us and get us to fight and die for them. What a scam!

      • kenny

        lol. confused? sadly i think they are way passed that. delusional might be a better word.

      • pegasis

        That’s TRUTH, justice and the American Way.

        • Bert Cundle

          O’ Yea… That’s Another one!

  • Bert Cundle

    American Refuge… A U.S.Escapee… The World is Wating!

  • Lost in Paradise

    I already left, and when the shootin starts, let me know and I’ll be back in a flash. A good revolution would suit me just fine. Is there enough of us?

    • DaveH

      Are you kidding me? We can’t even muster enough Freedom Lovers to vote in Libertarian candidates. And you really think you can muster enough people to give up their lives and win a revolution? We can’t even muster enough people to wake up, get off the couch, and do the work necessary to counter the rampant Pro-Government propaganda that spews from the MSM these days.
      Revolutions rarely have good outcomes.

      • texastwin827

        Dave, I thought the one that started in 1776, had a pretty awesome outcome!

        • Karolyn

          Waaaaaay different times!

        • DaveH

          It did. But that was the exception, not the rule. And even then, right after the Revolution, there were many who wanted to make George Washington a King. Even getting past that, it was only 70 years before the Big Government advocates achieved their goals. The ink was hardly dry on the paper yet (the Constitution).

  • http://Manta Johnny Heaston

    w

    We are in a very serious situation.Voters do not know who to believe or who to vote for or if their vote is even counted.Lets take the democrats,we all know they are wealthy and and set for life.Citizens of THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA ,we are on a dead end road that will to our demise.
    The republicans are the same as above. I do not have any plans or answers.This may sound crazy.Well I will say it anyway I think of all the bullcrap we will hear the next several months,the only hope I believe that will seriously take the leadership on honestly and without being swayed by others are TWO PEOPLE TOGETHER,MR.RON PAUL AND MR.JESSE VENTURA. Semper Fi Johnny Heaston UNITED STATES MARINE CORPS.

    W

    • DaveH

      There is a political party which understands the kind of Freedom that our Founders mostly envisioned.
      Get familiar with them. Support them. Vote for them:
      http://libertarianparty.org/platform

      Learn the rationality behind Libertarian Philosophy at Mises.org, lewrockwell.com, reason.org, and cato.org.

  • http://Manta Johnny Heaston

    RON PAUL AND JESSE VENTURA

    • eddie47d

      Jesse Ventura might make a good enforcer but he is way to fringe in his beliefs. Now Ron Paul is more level headed and talks reality not conspiracies.

      • Kate8

        How so, eddie? I’m curious about what you refer to as fringe.

        You mean, because he went after the truth for his TV show, and turned up things you don’t like?

        So, I guess, if you dare not accept the media and the status quo without question, that makes one “fringe”.

        • JeffH

          Kate8…he’d have to first understand what the word “frimge” means and then be able to properly apply it.

        • eddie47d

          His made up loony stories that he enhances to keep his audience entertained. He’s a great showman and that is what America loves.

          • Kate8

            Thus sayeth eddie.

            I’ll bet you never watched his shows. You just know they were all fake because you possess infinite wisdom.

            I guess that should just be good enough for us. Right, eddie?
            :) :)

          • JeffH

            Kate8, my thoughts exactly…only you said it this time…LMAO again! :)

          • DaveH

            Nobody could make up a story loony enough for you to star in Eddie.

          • DaveH

            Eddie’s favorite song lyrics:

            When a good time turns around
            You must whip me
            You will never live it down
            Unless you whip me
            No one gets away
            Until they whip me
            Whip me good

          • DaveH

            Pardon me. I’m just having a little fun at Eddie’s expense:
            http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xbt30UnzRWw

          • JeffH

            Dave, that was funny! :)

          • Kate8

            DaveH – You made me laugh.

  • Mike Travis

    Chip:
    To quote an American hero, “I know not what course others may take. But as for me, give me Liberty or give me Death”. I will never give up the fight to save America from ALL enemies, foreign and especially domestic. To do so would dishonor all those who died giving us the liberties we have enjoyed.

    As a member of a Constitutional Militia, I pray we will not be called upon to meet force with force, but I am prepared to do so, at the cost of my life if necessary. Before I am forced to make that choice, I prefer to exhaust all possible lawful and peaceful remedies to try to restore our Constitutional Republic. I have been Blessed to know a retired Navy Commander who has a plan that has the potential to make a huge step in that restoration. The first step is the removal of Obama from office. The tactic is to gather large numbers of dedicated Patriots who file Criminal Complaints against Obama leading up to a grand jury presentment.

    Here is his website so your readers can decide if they will stand up along side the Commander and DEMAND that criminal charges be brought against Obama: http://thejaghunter.wordpress.com/

    I respectfully request you and your readers to visit the Commander’s site, then join us in this battle. The stakes are no less than the very existence of America so I urge everyone to take a stand now before it is too late.

    For God and Country.

    • eddie47d

      I’d like to see us out of the Middle East but your thread seems to be second guessing the military and condemning the shooting down of the Chinook helicopter as an American failure. The Taliban got lucky, probably nothing more in that incident and you and the article rattle on about impeachment. During WWII over 5,000 troops were killed in one battle on Iwo Jima. Maybe that was a bad call too and Roosevelt should have been impeached. Men die in war and sometimes you have to roll with the punches and accept the loss. False accusations in that Chinook incident serves no purpose in closing down that war and only leaves bitterness and distrust in our military. God Bless all that serve for we all want them to come home safe.

    • Kate8

      Mike Travis – What a fabulous site! Thank you so much for that link.

      Great articles, like this one:

      A special federal Grand Jury must be impaneled and placed under oath this week to begin a criminal investigation into the deaths of those soldiers and SEALS who were assassinated in Afghanistan on Saturday! Yes, a Grand Jury commands the power to do so.
      Many accuse OBAMA and his claque as responsible for the outrageous and unnecessary loss of life of our troops and SEALS. In your accusations however, you have it only part right.
      OBAMA and his team infiltrated the office of president as commander-in-chief because YOU* allowed it! OBAMA and his team remain in office because YOU* have not acted to remove the infiltrator OBAMA from the White House by force of law! YOU!*
      When enough people file formal criminal complaints naming OBAMA in commission of TREASON then OBAMA will be arrested and prosecuted.
      OBAMA is not my president. OBAMA is not my commander-in-chief. OBAMA is a TRAITOR to the United States of America. And YOU do not ACT!
      OBAMA institutes military law in America with the promise of foreign troops on U.S. soil to imprison American citizens while YOU run out to the local mini-mart to buy more beer and potato chips.
      OBAMA is nothing more than a common, ordinary street punk. A thug. A bully. But YOU think that makes him special.
      OBAMA is proven a foreign born domestic enemy! OBAMA has given away U.S. military secrets. OBAMA is working for a foreign power. YOU don’t seem to notice.
      OBAMA lies to us with his every word. But YOU believe him.
      OBAMA is giving away guns to the Mexicans in an effort to take away guns from you. All this while illegal aliens of all descriptions are working hand-in-glove with OBAMA supporters as they flash-mob our County Fairs and our malls in celebration of their takeover of America while YOU get beaten to near-death, unarmed.
      OBAMA is an illegal alien. OBAMA is an undocumented worker. And YOU smile, amused and entertained.
      OBAMA is destroying our economy with each passing second. YOU’RE planning a pep-rally, or clicking our emails that only waste time and distract, or collecting money in scams masquerading as petition-signing campaigns or slick deals to sell Tee-shirts and coffee cups.
      OBAMA renders the United States a drug-haven as YOU go out looking for your next score.
      OBAMA works to destroy Christianity here at home while OBAMA takes your money to renew, improve and build mosques stateside and overseas. YOU pray in secret afraid to take ACTION!
      OBAMA is using a stolen social security number just like YOUR gardener or pool-boy.
      OBAMA is a totalitarian. OBAMA is a dictator. OBAMA is a communist. YOU’RE not interested.
      OBAMA is ravaging our military. OBAMA is strengthening and emboldening foreign military forces to invade. OBAMA is prepared to order foreign troops on American soil to come in and put YOU down should you attempt a defense. All of this going on while Admirals and Generals are groveling for their next star or plumb promotion. This country is less protected today than it was Friday if only because 31-more soldiers and SEALS were assassinated on Saturday. YOU turn to YOUR kid asking for the television remote.
      OBAMA is operating a government not found in our United States Constitution. YOU’RE too stupid or too lazy to notice.
      OBAMA is certainly and personally responsible for the deaths of our servicemen on Saturday. But then again…so are YOU!

      • eddie47d

        Have you gone wacko Kate. You sound criminally embalanced!

        • Kate8

          eddie hath, once again, spoken.

          Oh wise one and bearer of all knowledge.

          When you can’t refute, ridicule.

        • DaveH

          Are you one of those people that Karolyn helps, Eddie?

          • Kate8

            DaveH – :) :)

          • eddie47d

            Oh so cute!

  • rob

    the people have done this to themselves, they vote for those who believe in socialism, communism, sne dictatorship. they have no idea what the constitueion says and means. they are the quizzlings and idiots who want to be slaves and slave masters. fight and be free or give up and be a slave. I will never give up, I will die for my freedom. Atlas Shrugged and ww have a choice.

  • MarkRB

    Fight or Flight….run to where? What country is going to let a large group of Americans, who will want to bring their freedoms with them, guns included, to their country? No, I believe I’ll be fighting. Time to keep encouraging those state militias that have sworn to uphold the Constitution of the United States. I’m willing to bet that the majority of our military, if told by Obuma, to go against the American people, would tell him to kiss their @sses. It will be the start of another American Revolution, only this time we’d be fighting our own government. Pray we have some leaders who would channel George Washington and the other Founding Fathers and bring our country back to what it is supposed to be.

    • eddie47d

      Nixon/Agnew advocated for turning the military against the American people and I see no sign of Obama doing that. I’m not saying it couldn’t happen but you are letting paranoia run your thoughts.

      • DaveH

        That’s only because Obama knows the military won’t back him up.

        • Think about it

          Not all would, but there are the brain washed one’s that will and the UN Military, Obama will kill off all the one’s that wont in the middle east, just take a look around over there, our boys are surrounded and out numbered 1000 to 1, and the muslims will put aside there petty problems and ban together, just watch. Don’t forget the Obama military thats just south of the border and FEMA, the TSA, his armed gangs that would be more than happy to kill for Obama, there black god.

          • Karolyn

            OMG! Paranoia at its finest!

      • MarkRB

        And I hope I am just being paranoid, Ed. But I imagine there weren’t enough paranoid Germans when Hitler took over, or Russians when Stalin took over and killed millions of their own people.

        • eddie47d

          Dave H. During the Vietnam War there were soldiers who disliked both Johnson and Nixon so we can assume there are soldiers who dislike any President including Obama. What I have seen during the Bush and Obama Administration is the utmost respect from the troops towards the President and from the President towards the troops. They may not like the war or how supplies are delivered but they still respect each others responsibilities and the mission to each other.

        • Kate8

          MarkRB – Don’t listen to the Lefties. They don’t think there’s anything wrong.

          Karolyn says we must all just think happy thoughts! Happy thoughts, happy thoughts, happy thoughts…wooooosh….

          You are not being paranoid. You are awake.

      • Elevenarrows

        Eddie47d, I don’t see acting-president Obama lining up our military to shoot citizens. I think it would be much more subtle. I also am concerned about the hundreds of thousands of civilian “volunteers” acting-president Obama wants to sign up on his stupid website. As the mother of a bunch of kids, I have no intention of allowing my kids to perform mandatory “volunteer” service for the government. Rahm Emanuel has stated the program would last several months and all Americans would be required to perform the service. Uh, no thanks, Herr Obama.

    • JeffH

      MarkRB, have you checked out The Oath Keepers website?
      http://oathkeepers.org/oath/

      • MarkRB

        I just did…thanks. The oath looks similar to the one for one of the CA state militias that I’ve looked into. The Constitution is what we need to adhere to and protect it at all cost.

  • Sausagefingers

    Johnny Heaston that is not crazy.
    I may not be x military but I agree with you. There are more patriots in the public eye. How about Rand Paul, Judge Napolitano, Alex Jones, Edward Griffin, Lew Rockwell, James Wesley Rawles, Ol Remus, Johnny Silver Bear, Mac Slavo and many others. The best you can do is prepare yourself for and economic collapse. I am glad to see that there are many people in the military that are awake to what is going on. Remember there were only 3% of the population that wanted a revolution the first time around. Keep the faith, and don’t ever give up.

  • theodorej

    Being prepared is the price we have to pay for sitting on our asses watching the game while the commies took over the classroom,the court room and finally all three branches of our government… Iam sick of watching hundreds of pounds of human meat raking in millions of dollars playing football,baseball and basketball while a bunch of deviates out in hollywood shape the foundation of the society we live in…The commies in the classroom will bring us England before to long…It is not amunition you need it is the guts it takes to stand up is what is needed… Iam city boy I don’t hunt and I don’t farm but living in a housing project in queens NY taught me how to fight…

  • chuckb

    sddie47, where did you get your info about nixon /agnew advocating the use of troops against american people. are you talking about the use of troops against the communist protestors, if you are referring to that, i would not only have used troops i would have had them shot, it was not a peaceful protest.

    • eddie47d

      I see quite a bit of talk about getting out of the Middle East. Would you be willing to send troops against anyone who took to the streets protesting the Iraq War or the Libyan crises? Is that how you stiffle decent by killing them? Congress didn’t listen back then and they aren’t listening now. Whether something is peaceful or not doesn’t seem to sway opinion. I’ve heard a few right here advocating taking up arms against the government so should they be shot in their attempt and called communist subversives?

  • Paul

    When the shtf, it won’t matter what you do. Most people won’t know what hit them. We only have one real way out of this mess. We have to dealing with our real problems because our real problems are about to deal with ous. Thank god we still have brilliant people in this country.

    If you are an American, you have to Read “Common Sense 3.1” at ( http://www.revolution2.osixs.org ). It changed my life.

    FIGHT THE CAUSE – NOT THE SYMPTOM

  • Jeff M

    I would only leave if teabaggers and christian zealots like are represented on this board get power. Then, I’ll take my family and leave y’all gun totin’ yokels to shoot each other.

    • Song

      Again with the name calling and obvious contempt for your fellow
      Americans JeffM and yet you somehow see yourself as “better” than the people you just castigated.

      • DaveH

        You didn’t really expect “compassion” from a Liberal did you, Song?
        Compassion is just a Liberal euphemism for “we want your money”.

    • Elevenarrows

      Actually, Jeff M, I somehow suspect that if everything really does “hit the fan” and the worst case scenarios occur, you and your family will probably be begging all of us “gun-totin’ yokels” to protect, house and feed you.

    • Raggs

      Hey there jeff, why waste time in my opinion you should go with the rest of the non-american oblama fans to hell.

  • chuckb

    eddie47, taking up arms against a tyrannical government is a little different than trying to overthrow a constitutional government. my sentiments were not with the iraq war and i believe we should have left afghanistan years ago, however, i would not put our troops in any predicament and not support them. people have a right to protest “peacefully” when they start burning down the infrastructure and looting i would have no problem shooting.
    if barry keeps grabbing more power and shuns the constitution like he is doing, then we should do what ever is necessary to remove him, voting him out would be the first choice, if that doesn’t work then we can look at other options.

  • Song

    In my opinion, eddie47, Mark and I would also include Karolyn in the fray, where you are consistently off mark (no pun intended) is thinking that government can somehow legislate morality. That has never happened, and cannot happen and will never happen. There will always be criminally minded people on this planet just as there will always be members of the fringe element on this planet. There is not a law you can pass that will stop anyone from truly getting what they want if they are hellbent on getting it. That is why they are called criminals, terrorists, tyrants, thugs, despots or the fringe element, and they will ALWAYS exist among us. More government and more laws only punish the already law abiding, moral citizen and do absolutely nothing to ride the planet of people who would do evil. It is called the “human condition” and has nothing to do with race, religion and/or politics.

    • JeffH

      Song, and that’s the bottom line…well said. :)

      • PMS

        Song that was perfectly said. Exactly how I Think.

    • mark

      Yes but it is the conservatives who want to legislate morality. They want to outlaw abortion, gay marriage, pornography, drug use, gays in the military, etc. They want to mobilize a Christian Moral Majority. Not me. To me what consenting adults do in the privacy of their own home is their own business. I am on the side of the libertarians on these issues. It is the Christian Right in this country that keeps beating the morality drum. Not the liberals. They could care less about religion, drug use, or gays doing whatever the hell they want to.

      • DaveH

        The Liberals want to force us to buy healthcare insurance. They want to force us to buy useless and expensive CFL light bulbs. They want to force us to pay for inefficient expensive alternative energy. They want to force us to carry other useless human beings on our backs…….

        And worst of all, their principles change depending of who’s in office. They scream and yell at Bush for getting us into foreign wars, but then are strangely silent when it is Obama getting us into foreign wars. And they scream and yell at Bush for the Patriot Act, but then get strangely silent when Obama is renewing the Patriot Act.
        How do you Liberal guys live with yourselves? Principles aren’t something that you turn on and off like a light switch.

      • Kate8

        mark – That is so ridiculous.

        We don’t care what people do in their own homes. We just want them to KEEP IT THERE.

        We don’t want to PAY for your g/friend’s abortion.

        We don’t want our children exposed to pornography everywhere they look. We don’t want them taught the joys of sexual diversity in school. And we don’t want our religion FORCED to perform and bless gay marriage.

        What the Left is doing is FORCING your ways down our throats, FORCING us to honor them, pay for them and teach them to our children.

        Hypocrit.

    • Karolyn

      Song – Where did you get the idea that I am behind legislating morality? A very puzzling statement. Far from it. Many times I have used that phrase – “You can’t legislate morality. – in defending my positions with Conservative Christians who post here. I have not seen indications from either Eddie or mark that they support that thinking either. It is always the Christian right that wants to legislate morality. My motto is pretty much “Live and let live.”

      • Song

        how blind you are Karolyn, just like Mark and Eddie…what do you think liberals are trying to enforce with all of their rules and regulations? They want to tell us how many guns we can own, they want to tell us what light bulbs we have to use in our homes, they want to tell us what we can eat, they want to tell us who we can listen to and what we should listen to (ie: The Fairness Doctrine) and the worse part is that they do it all under the guise of compassion and fairness. Read DaveH’s reply just for starters, and what could be more morally repugnant than the blatant thievery of taking from one to give to another? That is not compassion, that is thievery and it is called redistribution of wealth and makes slaves out of all of us!

        • Kate8

          Song – Well said.

        • DaveH

          You must understand, Song, that Karolyn has a magic mirror. It turns her into Snow White everytime that she looks in it.

        • Nadzieja Batki

          Karolyn has scales on her eyes and probably those scales have scales.

  • skyskiers

    TRUE PATRIOTS WILL STAND AND FIGHT!

    Read the article before clicking on the link.

    Click on this link to access the proof concerning three party presidential candidates.
    http://www.federalobserver.com/2010/09/16/ryter-four-manchurian-candidates/

    The following is my response to a fellow patriot who is so angry at all politicians, that he claimed he would write in Ron Paul’s name for president.

    I think you are a patriot who is just so disgusted that you are temporarily venting your anger. Of course you realize that 3 times in the past, the democRATs succeeded in winning presidential elections by stealth and trickery.

    The trick the democRATs used was to run a 3rd party candidate, which split the republICAN vote and allowed the democRATs to snatch victory from the jaws of defeat. the 3rd party candidate was a STEALTH democRAT!

    1.) In 1912 Thomas Woodrow Wilson (democRAT) defeated President William Howard Taft (Republican)because Teddy Roosevelt was lured out of retirement (by the democRATS) and ran as a 3rd party (Bull Moose) candidate.

    2.) In 1976 Jimmy Carter (democRAT)defeated President Gerald Ford (Republican) because Eugene McCarthy (democRAT) ran as a 3rd party candidate.

    3.) In 1992 Bill Clinton (democRAT) defeated President George H. Bush (Republican) because Ross Perot (democRAT) ran as (INDEPENDENT) a 3rd party candidate.

    American history has shown that when ever there are three presidential candidates, the democRATs ALWAYS win!

    NO AMERICAN PATRIOT WOULD WANT THAT TO HAPPEN!

    So be on your guard when 3 months before the 2012 presidential election; Donald Trump will announce that he doesn’t like the Republican candidate, and then jumps into the race to split the CONSERVATIVE vote! Of course this would enable OBAMA to win a 2nd term.

    Donald Trump is a liberal business man, living in the most liberal city in America! Donald Trump was paid $60 million by NBC to re-new his show Celebrity Apprentice. Jeffry Immelt is the CEO of GE (General Electric) owns NBC, made billions last year, paid no taxes, and is the biggest financial backer of Obama next to George Soros!

    Donald Trump played his role,(as a conservative) of asking for Obama’s birth certificate, knowing full well that Obama would release one, which would (hopefully for Obama) end the controversy of Obama’s un-released long-form B.C.

    But the problem for Obama is just beginning, because every expert around the world has examined the electronic version (of Obama’s B.C.) and pronounced it a FAKE! So Obama officially claimed the FAKE birth certificate THUS PROVING THAT HE IS A FAKE!

    THERE IS A COMMUNIST IN THE WHITE HOUSE!

    SHARE THIS WITH EVERY ONE YOU KNOW!

    • DaveH

      So we should just not vote on Principle? We should just vote for the lesser of two evils (which is still just evil)? And you think our country would ever improve with that mindset?
      The Leaders love people like you. How else could they keep their Big Government and it’s resulting benefits (for them) in place?

      Fortunately, more and more people are waking up to the reality that they are “wasting” their votes on Republicans or Democrats.

  • Thinking About

    Would those planning to leave please remind Rush necks supposed to be going to Costa Rica (which has national health insurance) if the health care was passed in the USA. Maybe he is too hung over to remember he should have been gone long ago.

  • chuckb

    thinking about, do you drink or use stuff? does the warden know you have a laptop.

    • Thinking About

      Sorry you are not able to remember he was the one who said he was going to move to Costa Rica. There are drugs for those suffering from memory loss and perhaps you should discuss this with your physician. Might even be covered in your health insurance.

      • chuckb

        if you sre listening to rush then maybe you should learn to understand humor from reality. there’s no pills for your problem, so good luck

        • Thinking About

          Yep I do listen to him at times to hear him rant and make statements that are far from the truth but this time he should do the USA a favor and leave as he said he would. Think this might have turned votes in favor of the health care bill because we could get rid of him.

  • American Citizen

    I don’t think, after listening to him last evening, that Ron Paul has a good grasp on international dangers. He’s too much of an isolationist. No, we should not be interfering in other countries’ internal affairs, but we also have to recognize those that are a danger to, not only us, but other countries as well.

    • DaveH

      We’ve been allowing the Leaders to build their empires around the world for 100 years now. Have things gotten better? Are we safer now? I mean really? Do we have fewer enemies now?
      No, Ron Paul has an excellent grasp of International Dangers. It is those who blindly follow the warfare state who need to do some studying.

    • DaveH

      Well, at least you have some good company, Citizen. Steve Forbes also believes we must be the world’s policemen.
      I have always admired Steve except for his hawkish views.
      But they haven’t worked. We’ve been attempting to be the World’s Policemen for 100 years now. It has been a failure.
      It’s time to give the Doves a chance, and get our troops the flock out of other countries. Imagine how we will feel when UN soldiers are patrolling our streets?
      And NOT being the World’s Policemen, does not make us “isolationist”. That is just a manipulative term used by those who don’t have the backing of logic.

  • rob

    time to stand up and be counted or see for yourself you did ir to yourself.

  • Think about it

    Mexican military chopper mistakenly lands in Texas

    JASON BUCH
    Houston Chronicle
    August 8, 2011

    A Mexican military helicopter landed Saturday afternoon at Laredo International Airport by mistake, said a spokeswoman for U.S. Customs and Border Protection.

    Mucia Dovalina, the uniform public affairs officer for the Laredo Port of Entry, said the helicopter landed about 3 p.m., but she couldn’t share details such as the number of occupants or whether they were armed.

    Dovalina said that, following protocol, CBP officers checked out the helicopter’s occupants, then allowed them to return to Mexico in the aircraft.

    • Kate8

      Think about it – This is from the JAG HUNTER website:

      On May 25 I attended a conference on border management, at a cost of $1,200. It was worth it. By being there, I was able to hear first-hand, a U.S Army General tell us that the best way to secure our southern border was to erase it (LINK).
      Brig. General Felderman’s speech was a stunning proposal to integrate our military with that of Mexico to fight the drug cartels and terrorism, implying that those were the only problems we face.
      I have now been able to secure a copy of the slides Gen. Felderman used in his presentation. I urge everyone to listen to his speecH (LINK) while moving through his slides (LINK). (I should note that the first five minutes includes some background stuff, including how many generals wouldn’t give this speech.)
      Felderman leaves no doubt that the Obama administration is working to merge the U.S. with Mexico. It leaves no doubt that securing the border with a fence is out of the question.
      It is time that the State of Arizona confront the Obama administration over this issue. The best way to do this is to get a general consensus on the definition of border security. Arizona should then move to establish a means of measuring border security — setting a standard that must be met before an discussion of broader immigration reform can begin.

  • Think about it

    Obamacare-Funded Health Centers for ‘Migrants’ Won’t Check Immigration Status

    Matt Cover
    CNSNews.com
    August 11, 2011

    Department of Health and Human Services (HHS) announced on Tuesday that it has awarded $28.8 million to 67 community health centers with funds from the Obamacare health reform law.

    Of that $28.8 million, “approximately $8.5 million will be used by 25 New Access Point awardees to target services to migrant and seasonal farm workers,” Health Resources and Services Administration (HRSA) Spokeswoman Judy Andrews told CNSNews.com. HRSA is a part of HHS.

    Andrews said that grant recipients will not check the immigration status of people seeking services.

  • Thinking About

    Not much difference than when they are being hired by employers who does not verify and verification order went into effect in 1986. Where are the fines which should have been placed on them? Let the farmers pay for their employees use of our facilities. Another fine example of wealth redistribution.

  • Karolyn

    Our money going to Israel and 81 representatives having a good time on our dime giving it away!
    http://www.commondreams.org/view/2011/08/12-5

    • Raggs

      Your not just a BIG idiot… You are in the same league as oblama.

      • Karolyn

        Did you even READ the story, Raggs. I sure didn’t make it up.

  • Alex

    Borders ARE obsolete.
    God laughs at borders.

    • Jay

      So do the Mexicans.

      • Kate8

        Jay – So does Obama. Especially ours.

  • ONTIME

    I cannot make excuses for a demneted old guy like Super Man, his probably on his fifth box of depends today….maybe a assisted care home could help so he doesn’t get runover or mugged…

  • Jay

    FUN FACTS ABOUT LIBERALS

    * Liberals hate people who are not open minded. Open minded is defined as thinking just like they think (otherwise you’re evil).

    * The major diet of the liberal is tofu and granola. This makes them weak and easy to pick up and throw.

    * Liberals love to spend other people’s money. If you see a liberal, it’s okay to take his money because it probably wasn’t his anyway.

    * Liberals have an irrational fear of firearms. If you want to scare a liberal, point a gun at him.

    * The whine of the North American liberal can often be mistaken for the sound of a screech owl. The main difference is that the liberal’s whine will also have a nauseating effect.

    * Liberals love socialism and want to socialize all businesses. If you see a liberal coming towards your business, throw a stick at him before he can socialize it.

    * Liberals tend to congregate on college campuses as it is a safe haven for their idiotic ideas, protecting them from scrutiny. Thus, avoid college at all costs.

    * Liberals are invulnerable to reason and logic. They are vulnerable to firearms, knives, and the ***** slap.

    * Liberals hate America and love more oppressed people… like evil dictators.

    * Much like the duck, it’s illegal to shoot a liberal who is floating in a lake.

    * Liberals will try to entice you with their twisted logic. If that doesn’t work, they’ll bite you.

    * Hanging a picture of Ronald Reagan over your door will keep liberals from entering.

    * Liberals come in two main varieties: intellectual and mental patient. You can only distinguish between the two by noting whether their jacket has sleeves.

    * If you see a fuel-efficient car, it’s probably being driven by a liberal. Run it off the road with your SUV.

    * Liberals are always trying to save the environment because they are apparently dependent on it. If you want to kill all liberals, destroy the environment.

    * Even if you satisfy liberals’ demands, they’ll come up with new thing to complain about that you could never even imagine; they’re just that creative. That creativity is put towards much better use as forced labor in a coal mine.

    * Liberals are always whining about tolerance, but, when I punch them for that, they get moody. Hey, be tolerant!

    * You can tell if someone is a liberal by extracting some blood and seeing if it reacts violently to fire.

    * Sorry, that previous item is how you find out if someone is the Thing. It’s a good thing to check for that too, though.

    * Some liberals still think Communism is good. I guess we should threaten them with nuclear missiles just like we did the Soviets.

    * In a fight between Aquaman and liberals, liberals would have Aquaman fined for disturbing the habitat of endangered fish. He would then sulk about it to the great annoyance of the Aquawife.

    * Liberals like to sympathize with terrorists. Keep them away from Gitmo, or there will be nothing but sympathizing.

    * I’ve heard vicious rumors that liberals also like the French, but that might just be slander against liberals.

    • JeffH

      Jay, that was a good one…I’ll have to copy it and send it out in some emails…whoohooo! :)

    • Thinking About

      Does not take much to describe a tea bagged for they are slow in American history and never studied civics. You can’t get anything out of them until you put them in hot water, good for one shot, then all wet and ready for the garbage.

  • Jay
    • Kate8

      Jay – Great post! Thanks!

      • eddie47d

        The problem is Jay you are not always polite or respectful. When you change faces all day long people eventually get wise.

        • JeffH

          …hypocrit…

          • eddie47d

            Mr Pimple; Douche!

          • JeffH

            Such a potty mouth. A little bit perturbed are we Easy-E?

          • Kate8

            How old are you, eddie?

            Hmmmm. Things are beginning to make more sense…

          • eddie47d

            Hey Kate,Jeff brings out the “best” in me.He’s the tit for tat king.He follows my every word like a coon dog chasing a rabbit.

        • Jay

          “Show me a young conservative, and I’ll show you someone with no heart. Show me an old liberal, and I’ll show you someone with no brains.” – Winston Churchill

  • Bert Cundle

    Rebelion Worked for the Blacks & Mexicans… Won’t work for us!

  • Jay

    THE 10 MOST COMMON LOGICAL FALLACIES MADE BY LIBERALS!!!

    Consistent liberalism is outside the realm of reason. The Post-Modern era is an example. Truth absolutely is impossible, and thus no purpose, truth, beauty, and justice is absolutely possible as well. And while truth is absolutely unattainable, the absolute truth that it is unattainable seems to self refute again, the post-modern motif of consistent liberalism and pagan philosophy.

    This has come as a death to our culture regarding art, music, cinema, philosophy, and overall goodness. This is the result of all consistent liberalism and pagan philosophy, the death of the good, and the reign of that which is evil.

    We see this in China. Censor everything against the state, via the anti-rational nature of the subject. China knew that if people were to reason and think logically, then communism and atheism via a rational system of thought would perish. This is consistent to what I’m talking about. Since consistent liberalism is via non-reason, then logically they must commit the logical fallacy of baculum, the logical fallacy of FORCE.

    1) Argumentum ad hominem abusive (Name Calling)
    —-Rush Limbaugh doesn’t know what he’s talking about because he is addicted to pain killer pills and he’s fat.

    2) Equivocation (The same term used via two different meanings).
    —-Since Rush Limbaugh wants Obama to fail, he wants America to fail
    —-(Here we see Obama and America being used via equivocation).

    3) Red Herring (Changing the Subject So as to Avoid the Question)
    —-QUESTION: Is Obama a Marxist?
    —-ANSWER: I believe politics is for the good of mankind.

    4) Straw Man (An Argument Attacked That’s Not Argued).
    This seems to be Obama’s favorite,

    Statement: You just committed a logical fallacy.
    Why do you believe in UFOs? You’re crazy.

    5) argumentum ad misericordiam (using pity to disprove your argument – also could be an ad hominem).
    —-STATEMENT: America should shoot Osama Bin Laden right between the eyes and kill terrorists.
    —-RESPONSE: You’re mean, we’re suppose to love everybody.

    6) post hoc ergo propter hoc (because of this, then that)
    —-Because Glenn Beck thinks the Obama Administration is Socialist,
    —-then all of Fox network believes Obama is a Socialist.

    7) False Dilemma (False Dichotomy) Only allow for two options.
    —-Glenn Beck is either a Republican or a Domcrat
    —-Obama is either a Marxist or a Capitalist.

    8) ignorantiam elich (Appear to Ignorance).
    —-Because Socialism is wrong Capitalism is right.
    —-Because Obama is a liberal, my position is right since I’m a conservative.

    9) Slippery Slope (A Snowball of Unrelated Questions and Statements to distract from the issue at hand)
    —-QUESTION: Are you for or against abortion
    —-RESPONSE: I believe we should all respect each other, nobody is going to understand another person’s feelings, you should think about being in the other persons shoes, what about rape, what happens if we have to use hangers again? etc, etc, etc.

    10) argumentum ad populum (Appeal to Popularity)
    —-the Liberals are the ones that won the election, so you may as well go along with their policies.

    Liberals can’t help it. They are so evil and full of lies, that logical fallacies just come out all over the place. Watch MSNBC with a book on logic, turn to the informal logical fallacies, and you may have almost the whole list in a few shows.

    When you start studying logic, you will begin to see that the reprobate can’t stop with the logical fallacies. And, when a conservative really knows how to explain, examine, and expose their cause via a successful refutation against the pagan enemy, Liberals will virtually ALWAYS resort to logical fallacy #1 over, and over again. .

    When the Liberals start calling you names, you know you are on the right track.

    • JeffH

      Jay, you’re on a roll…luv it… :)

  • Jay
  • GHOP

    This country still has a chance of surviving if we get that idiot Obumbler out of office and elect some good conservatives to congress. He was a student of Saul Alinsky. He never met Alinsky, but he taught workshops on the Alinsky method which was to take power from the Haves and give it to the Have-nots, which is “spreading the wealth”. I do plan on staying to fight because the USA is still the greatest country on earth. God bless the USA.

  • Jay

    To understand the workings of American politics, you have to understand this fundamental law: Conservatives think liberals are stupid. Liberals think conservatives are evil.

    This is generally true, although the “evil” theory is making a comeback on the Right as more people have become familiar with Saul Alinsky and the Cloward–Piven strategy (Yes, Alinsky, Cloward, & Piven are evil people). Combine that with the complete acceptabilty of lying for political ends on the left, liberalism’s growing hostility to Christianity and country, and their willing embrace of almost anything that weakens the country or undermines morality, and it’s easy to embrace the idea that liberals are evil.

    It’s not true, though.

    …..Not that there aren’t “evil” liberals. There are plenty of them. Being a shameless liar who believes in nothing other than getting reelected may not make you a very good person, but it’s a huge strength in politics. We’ve created a system that rewards lying, lack of conscience, and acting like a sociopath; so there are a lot of people like that in Congress (They’re on both sides of the aisle). In fact, other than our prison system, Congress has the largest collection of con-men and swindlers you’ll find anywhere in our country.

    Setting those people aside and getting down to the run-of-the-mill liberal in politics that you run into — are they evil people? Although I think you could make a fair case that liberalism is an evil philosophy, for the most part, I’d say its adherents aren’t evil.

    Liberals are utterly indifferent to whether the policies they advocate work or not. It’s not about actually improving people’s lives for liberals; it’s about feeling good about yourself. If a policy makes a liberal feel morally superior, whether it actually does more harm than good is completely irrelevant.

    Combine that with the liberal love of groupthink (The only real crime is being insufficiently liberal), the smug sense of superiority liberalism encourages that has no relation to actions or results beyond being liberal, the-ends-justifies-the-means mentality that liberalism pushes, and liberalism becomes an all-encompassing, insular philosophy.

    Do liberals often do a great deal of evil? Yes. Do they mean to do it? No. They’ve been told they’re the good guys, they FEEL LIKE they’re good guys, and they’re been taught not to critically examine any evidence to the contrary because it comes from a polluted source (a non-liberal).

    In a sense, they’re like people who are pouring rat poison into the punch bowl at a party while they think it’s sugar. They feel so pleased with themselves because they’re doing a good thing — and the people who’re trying to stop them? At best they don’t know any better, but more likely they’re just evil people who want everyone to have a terrible time — because of THE EVIL. It’s impossible to explain the situation to them because they start with the assumption that if you don’t want to pour the rat poison into the Kool-Aid, you must be evil, and therefore can’t be trusted. So, they live their lives inside of a feedback loop that’s nearly impossible to penetrate.

    So, are liberals evil? No, they’re stupid or perhaps more accurately, close-minded, emotion-driven people with no common sense and a wholly unjustified superiority complex.

    http://rightwingnews.com/john-hawkins/are-liberals-evil-or-stupid/

  • Karolyn

    There has been a lot posted here by Jay about liberals. Why is it I never see satirical or hateful litanies posted by liberals about conservatives? I just hate the generalizations. People are people. We all have different perspectives. Perspectives are subjective and cannot be judged by another. “Evil” is a word that is thrown around a lot; and that is so totally off-the-wall, especially when used to describe a whole segment of a population. Are there evil liberals? Sure! Are there evil conservatives? Absolutely! Liar is another one. All liberals do not lie; and there are liars in both camps.

    Demonizing a particular group of people for their political ideologies is, in my book, just plain wrong. Nobody can have it totally their way, so there has to be understanding and compromise.

    As someone who has considered herself a liberal my whole life, I have seen a shift in my views on many things as I’ve gotten older. I am more middle-of-the-road than ever in my life. However, I will never give up my idealism and optimism for the cynicism and fatalism of the conservative.

    • DaveH

      It’s so much easier for the person, who rides on the shoulders of another, to be “positive”.

      • Song

        Well said DaveH.

      • Karolyn

        Does saying that make you feel better about yourself, Dave? That is usually the case. People who put down others do it because it makes them feel more superior. Psychology 101. Why is it necessary?

        • DaveH

          I’m condescending the condescender. How’s it feel, Karolyn?

        • DaveH

          You do realize, Karolyn, that about half of your comments consist of presenting yourself as holier than thou? Most of us try to exchange information. You seem to be here mostly to put yourself on a pedestal and impress us with your positivity.
          Okay, we’ve heard it ad nauseum. Can you give it a rest?

          • Kate8

            karolyn – One other thing I would add to Jay’s post: liberals have no sense of humor.

            Do you really think that your continual lecturing about happy thoughts is having any effect on us other than making us want to barf?

            Here’s a news flash: WE DON’T LOOK UP TO YOU.

  • Thinking About

    Good post Karolyn, he sounds as an expert on liberals without any credentials to back himself up with but it must sound good to himself. I don’t have to and will not change my positions due to his prospective

    • Song

      That’s good Thinking About because first you would need to learn how to construct an intelligible sentence which requires brains…still not sure what “prospective” you would be referring to, but keep trying. LOL

      • Thinking About

        So, you have problems reading and understanding what you read. Posting the comments as you do shows tour brain power, try again, it does not educate you in comprehension. Can you also see Russia from your porch.

        • DaveH

          Prospective:
          http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/prospective

          I think you meant “perspective”, About.
          I’m not ragging on you for that, though, everybody makes mistakes.
          But I will rag on you for your obvious Sarah Palin reference. Why pick on her? What did she have to do with your exchange with Song?
          And part of Russia can be seen from parts of Alaska. That’s just a fact.
          See my next comment for a link to verify that.

          • DaveH

            Seeing Russia from Alaska:
            http://www.slate.com/id/2200155/

            So, given that, what does that make the Liberals who insist on propagating the nonsense that Sarah is ignorant for making that statement, when in fact her statement is TRUE?

  • skyskiers

    RE: Karolyn:

    It’s obvious to the American people that the democRATs are the most EVIL political party in American history! Actions speak louder than words. Obama and his democRATs enherited a $500 billion debt from President Bush and then ( in 2.5 hears ) went on a spending and taxing binge; which increased the debt to $14 TRILLION.

    You don’t spend that kind of money by accident. You only spend this kind of money if you are intent on harming our country. The democRATs had a super majority (in congress – which means the REPUBLICANS coulcn’t stop what the democRATS were doing) and have an illegal and ineligible democRATic president; who has signed EVERY BILL the democRATS HAVE rammed down the AMERAICAN PEOPLE’s throats.

    Trying to make sense of the INSANE SPENDING by Obama and his democRATic party is not possible until you come to the realization that they ( democRATs) are doing it ON PURPOSE to HARM AMERICA. It only makes since when you realize that the COMMUNIST PARTY of America has merged with the democRATid party (OVER THE PAST 50 YEARS); and the outcome is a new political party that hates AMERICA, hates American values, hates the American people and especially hates their LIBERTY & FREEDOM.

    THE EXCESSIVE DEBT & SPENDING IS THE TOOL & WEAPON the democRATs are using to destroy AMERICA & the AMERICAN people by destroyihg the AMERICAN ECONOMY. A strong vibrant growing economy equals a strong growing enduring AMERICA. By destroying the American economy, you have effectivly destroyed the AMERICAN MILITARY! ANY NATION THAT CAN’T FUND IT’S MILITARY LOSES IT’S LIBERTY AND FREEDOM!

    The proof in th pudding, is in the tasting. If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, it is a duck. When you find yourself in a deep financial hole; you don’t keep digging & spending to get out of the hole. EVERY HONEST AMERICAN KNOWS THAT OBAMA & THE DEMS AREN’T TRYING TO SOLVE AMERICAS’ PROBLEMS; OBAMA AND THE DEMS ARE ACTUALLY DESTROYING AMERICA BY DESTROYING HER ECONOMY!

    ACTIONS SPEAK LOUDER THAN WORDS AND OBAMA’S ACTIONS REVEAL WHAT HIS REAL NAME IS:

    T-O

    R-uin

    A-merica

    I-internally

    T-he

    O-bama

    R-evenge

    Karolyn says:

    There has been a lot posted here by Jay about liberals. Why is it I never see satirical or hateful litanies posted by liberals about conservatives? I just hate the generalizations. People are people. We all have different perspectives. Perspectives are subjective and cannot be judged by another. “Evil” is a word that is thrown around a lot; and that is so totally off-the-wall, especially when used to describe a whole segment of a population. Are there evil liberals? Sure! Are there evil conservatives? Absolutely! Liar is another one. All liberals do not lie; and there are liars in both camps.

    Demonizing a particular group of people for their political ideologies is, in my book, just plain wrong. Nobody can have it totally their way, so there has to be understanding and compromise.

    As someone who has considered herself a liberal my whole life, I have seen a shift in my views on many things as I’ve gotten older. I am more middle-of-the-road than ever in my life. However, I will never give up my idealism and optimism for the cynicism and fatalism of the conservative.

    • Karolyn

      I do not believe anyone is out to intentionally ruin the country, and nothing anyone says will change that. I believe that due to their own perspective, individuals make certain choices that they believe are right. In another’s eyes, those choices ae absolutely wrong. Who decides who is right? Does there need to be a decision at all? No. We are all free to believe as we wish and should not have to be labeled by those who do not agree with us. We are all in this together. It’s funny that I never hear liberals saying “All conservatives should be…..(choose your poison); however, it is something I often hear from conservatives about liberals.

      We are all here to enjoy life and help each other; and I don’t think that negativity contributes to that. One can be aware of what’s going on without buying into the negativity of it. One does not have to retreat to lala-land to have a positive frame of mind. Actually, what’s wrong with lala-land? There’s an old proverb I heard a long time ago that goes something like this:

      There was a man who lived in a tent next door to a group of whirling dervishes who danced and whirled all day long. When asked how he put up with them, the man answered “I just let ‘em whirl.” Simple, huh?

      “Wear the world like a loose garment” – The Desiderata

      • Song

        Karolyn: No, we are not all here just to “enjoy life”…how nice that would be if it were true but it is not. There is such a thing called evil and there are people that would do evil. Perhaps bending people to their will is the way evil people enjoy life, ever think of that? And, if you want to live in “la la land” go ahead, after all, “ignorance is bliss” and you are a shinning example of that. While you continue in your happy pot induced haze or whatever it is that you’re smoking the rest of us will study history, politics, humanity and the “stuff” that really makes the world go round so that we aren’t caught with “our pants down”. Don’t expect any credibility when you decide to go on one of your pious rants though. It doesn’t work, and you my dear, are more arrogant than most.

        • Karolyn

          I also, will continue to read and study and learn as much as I can about all those subjects and more. As long as I live and am able to think, I will learn every day. My American History 201 class should prove to be very interesting this semester as compared to what I’ve learned here and what I learned 45 years ago in high school. :-) I can’t wait to post some of the things I learn and see the responses!

          I really would like to know what you get out of denigrating people who are just giving opinions? That is such a puzzle to me. Yes, it would be nice to live in lala-land. I believe the only people who do are those who are developmentally disabled. Ignorance truly is bliss!

          And, yes, we all came here to enjoy our lives and help each other. Why else would we be here? Unfortunately, a great many people do not know the truth, hence all the greed and hate in the world. Oh, yes, those “evil” people you speak of – They’re not REALLY enjoying their lives!

          • DaveH

            You really are wearing heavy blinders, Karolyn, to say such as this “Yes, it would be nice to live in lala-land. I believe the only people who do are those who are developmentally disabled. Ignorance truly is bliss!”, right after lecturing others about their negativity. Good Grief, Karolyn. Break that magic mirror and face reality. You are no better than those you lecture.
            Oh well, enough of that.
            I would be curious for you to read “The Real Lincoln” by Thomas DiLorenzo, and then bring up some of those points to your history professor (if he gets into the Civil War era). Here is a synopsis, but the best thing would be to read the whole book:
            http://mises.org/store/Real-Lincoln-The-P172.aspx

          • Karolyn

            Thanks for the tip, Dave. I believe the class covers up to 1877, so we should be covering the Civil War, which is one of my favorite periods in history.

            I do not think that saying ignorance is bliss was being negative; and what I said about the developmentally disabled is right on. I worked with them at one time; and they are, for the most part, extremely happy people. I don’t claim to be happy, happy all the time; however, I strive for enlightenment and joy.

          • Kate8

            karolyn – “I believe”…”I do not believe”…

            “Believe” being the operative word here.

            What you believe is nothing more than that. BELIEF.

            BTW, you also overestimate its importance.

        • Song

          and herein lies your arrogance karolyn…that you presume and assume that just because people are concerned about their country and discuss politics that they do not seek out joy and are only filled with contempt and negativity. That is a common misconception by people like yourself who embrace the “feel good” ideology of the left, even though it is a house of cards, built on sand a/k/a lies…Perhaps you should take a writing 101 class as well as philosophy 101 while your at it. BTW: DaveH was merely stating a fact when he stated that it is easy to be positive when you are living off the backs of others…that is true. You are the one who took offense miss holier than thou.

    • Thinking About

      Where did you research to find the debt of 500 billion when Obama took office? The debt was 5.5 trillion when GWB took office and it was around 11 trillion when GWB left office with 700 billion about to be paid for bailouts. If raising the debt makes a party evil guess what this would mean to the Republician party, really evil. Bush doubled the debt in eight years. The democrat party will take the responsibility of debt when we are in power but the only answers the repubs has to say is Bush is not president anymore. Thank goodness , we can’t afford his spending ways. Get your facts straight.

      • DaveH

        When Bush took office the national debt was $5.7 Trillion.
        When Bush left office the national debt was $10.6 Trillion.
        That’s a $4.9 Trillion increase in eight years, or $600 Billion borrowed per year.
        Obama and his gang in Congress could have easily stopped the bailouts if they desired (and they should have), so it really is equivocating to include that on Bush’s side of the equation. But even if we do it still amounts to only $700 Billion per year borrowed under Bush.
        Compare that to just 2010′s federal deficit of $1.2 Trillion (or 1200 Billion), almost double that of Bush’s average borrowing per year. And this year the deficit is projected to be $1.6 Trillion, more than double Bush’s average yearly deficit.
        Don’t you think, About, that you are being just a little disingenuous to rag on Bush’s Spending but turn a blind eye to Obama’s much greater Spending?

        • Thinking About

          I was actually giving factual information to a previous post who said GWB had 500 billion in debt when the figure was 5 trillion and now the debt is 1.4 trillion and this was stated as Dems are “evil” because debt went from 500 billion under GWB to 1.4 trillion under Obama. My point was to correct the debts posted earlier and point out repubs must be evil under the same reasoning. No I not happy with the way Congress is doing their job, we have wars ongoing we could not afford and tax cuts we could not afford and a deadhead Congress playing politics and not putting this great nation on track. Sounds like evil on all sides.

  • Bert Cundle

    The Blame should be on the Sheep! For letting the Wolf Catch them and eat them, so the wolf can live to eat others & produce more wolves to eat more Sheep! (Where is the Sheepard?) Sheepard has gone on to bigger & Better Things… “Cattle & Oil in Texas!”

  • skyskiers

    RE: Cundle:

    TYPICAL liberal/progressive/democRAT reaponse:

    It’s all the American peoples fault for voting for democRATs. You knew that we democRATs are crooked greedy, dishonest politicians; but you voted for us any way. So you get the government you deserve!

    Never mind that fact that the Main-Stream-News-Media has been controlled by the democRATs for over 50 years. It’s only the last 14 years that FOX NEWS has broken the liberal-progressive-democRAT’s monopoly on the propaganda they’ve been feeding to the American people.

    The Tide is turning. 65% of the American viewers are now watching FOX NEWS and listining to the TRUTH! The truth is that democRATs have been hiding any news or stories that make America seem exceptional or reveal the democRATs to be the lying, thieving, American-hating Communists that they are!

    THE SLEEPING GIAN IS AWAKE!

    There are going to be a lot of democRATs going to prison for TREASON!

    Bert Cundle says:

    August 13, 2011 at 10:07 am
    The Blame should be on the Sheep! For letting the Wolf Catch them and eat them, so the wolf can live to eat others & produce more wolves to eat more Sheep! (Where is the Sheepard?) Sheepard has gone on to bigger & Better Things… “Cattle & Oil in Texas!”

    • Jay

      Music to my ears, skyskiers.

  • chuckb

    karolyn, if your are reading contemporary history that may be one of your problems. search out history pre-1960 then be skeptical. modern day history has been revised to the liberal slant and misleading. i have a history book dating 1919 berkeley high school, berkeley, ca. i doubt if they would allow this book in their library today.
    it is far more accurate than those currently used in our schools.

    i think is’s humorous, berkeley high school today is the pits of liberalism and would fit better in cuba except cuba is probably to advanced for them. it would be hilarious to have the teachers take a look at what was taught in 1919, i can see them now dancing around the bon fire.

  • Jay

    In order to display some gravitas,Obama’s White House is assisting an Oscar winning filmmaker to spin it into a leadership role in the killing of Osama Bin Laden just in time for the 2012 Election. As is typical of Hollywood,this is another movie aimed at showing Democrat Presidents in a positive light while in and out of office.

    Kathryn Bigelow directed the Oscar-winning Iraq War movie “The Hurt Locker,”has teamed up with its writer Mark Boal to start on the preproduction research for a movie about the killing of Bin Laden. The project is being billed as a movie about CIA and Military action in the tracking and killing of bin Laden. It will supposedly be presented as a story about the SEAL team that killed bin Laden,but since the White House is involved it will more likely be a 2 hour Hollywood produced campaign commercial.

    Concerns

    Ms. Bigelow,a longtime supporter of Obama is using this movie to highlight the only positive moment during his presidency. Bigelow may already have used White House connections to gain access to sensitive information within the CIA and the Pentagon in preparations for this “movie.” Rep. Peter King (R-NY) asked the “inspectors general of the CIA and the Department of Defense to determine what consultations occurred in the White House about providing Hollywood with access to covert military operators and clandestine CIA officers.” This suspicion became warranted when Bigelow and Boal showed up at a CIA ceremony to honor the SEALS and CIA agents who took out bin Laden.

    Movies about black-ops may compromise future clandestine missions and may endanger troops,agents and their families,but that doesn’t seem important to Obama or his Hollywood friends. Among the black-ops community it is a taboo to talk about past and ongoing missions,even with each other.

    In an effort to distract attention from the seedy quality of this affair, White House Press Jester Jay Carney,shot back “When people,including you in this room,are working on articles,books,documentaries or movies that involve the president,ask to speak to administration officials,we do our best to accommodate them to make sure the facts are correct.” Just as long you don’t work for Fox News,of course.

    Rebuttal

    As reported in the New York Times,the filmmakers denied they are making a pro-Obama movie saying,“Our upcoming film project about the decade-long pursuit of Bin Laden has been in the works for many years and integrates the collective efforts of three administrations,including those of Presidents Clinton,Bush,and Obama,as well as the cooperative strategies and implementation by the Department of Defense and Central Intelligence Agency.” If true the bin Laden movie would have to start with the bombing of U.S. Embassies in Africa. And if she is being truthful then change the release date to sometime after the 2012 election.

    I hope she remembers that it wasn’t Obama who gave the kill order and that the White House picture release to the press was posed. It remains to be seen if Ms. Bigelow is Obama’s Leni Riefenstahl, but it sure looks like it as the old saying goes “If it quacks like a duck.”

    http://www.coachisright.com/it’s-called-propaganda/#

  • chuckb

    jay, in your comment, you say getting bin laden was a positive moment for barry, i think not, it took him something like sixteen hours to contemplate what to do, he was probably on his rug asking muhammad to forhgive him for what he was forced to do.

    • Jay

      Not that I think for obama was a positive moment, but that obama, no doubt, thinks it was a positive moment. Personally, I don’t think it was a positive moment, but an elaborate staged deception for his ratings, off course!

      • eddie47d

        Most of your comments are staged so will that make you a great President?

        • JeffH

          Easy-E, having a bad day?

          • eddie47d

            Nope!

  • Jay

    A new Washington Post poll finds, among other things, that a full 70 percent of Americans either believe Barack Obama has “tried but failed” to solve “the major problems facing the country” or has actually “made problems worse.” That compares, by the way, with 71 percent of Americans in a December 2008 Pew Center poll who thought the same of outgoing President Bush.

    Yet in analyzing the polling data, Post staffers Jon Cohen and Dan Balz buried bad news for the president deep in their page A1 August 11 article and suggested the sour view Americans have on the Congress was the bigger story for the upcoming election season.

    Read more: http://newsbusters.org/blogs/ken-shepherd/2011/08/11/washpost-notes-voter-discontent-washington-fails-focus-70-believing-ob#ixzz1UwdwaHpn

  • Jay

    The state of Illinois has reached a new level of broke. Come Monday, it won’t have enough cash to bury its indigent dead.

    Illinois officials sent a letter to more than 600 funeral directors around the state to let them know there’s no money for funerals for individuals on public assistance.

    “We got that letter,” said Jonathon Szykowny, owner and director of Szykowny Funeral Home. “I’m extremely upset by it. … I would be very concerned that during extreme economic times that some families can’t provide the necessary funds to bury their loved ones. Sometimes God doesn’t call during the best economic times and families can’t afford to pay for a funeral and need help”

    In the past, the state has reserved about $13 million to help pay for an estimated 12,000 funerals for individuals who relied on public aid. Participating funeral homes were alloted $1,100 for funerals and $552 for the burial.

    The 2011 budget, however, accounts for just $1.9 million.
    The Illinois Department of Human Services letter said it can only guarantee payments for pauper funerals through August 15.

    Funeral directors have been advised to look for money from city or county governments, and to advise families in morgues until funding can be secured.

    “Now the only viable option — I don’t mean to make light of it — is to leave the body at the medical examiner office,” Szykowny said. “After 60 to 90 days they’ll take the body to what’s called a potter’s field and bury it in a numbered grave.”

    Source: http://www.nbcchicago.com/blogs/ward-room/Why-Illinois-Cant-Afford-its-Dead-127534403.html?dr#ixzz1UwfmVqbV

    • eddie47d

      Do what Conservatives always say turn to the nearest church and they will handle the needs of the poor and apparently the dying also. Practice what you preach and the problem would be solved.No government involved.

      • Song

        Is there some reason why you doubt that churches and organizations other than the government can’t take care of problems Eddie? You are a very cynical individual aren’t you.

        • eddie47d

          It’s a fact that the church is now doing little to alleviate the suffering in this country. If the church or individuals as you stated are doing so much why then is everything getting worse for those seeking help?

          • Jay

            What church eddie? You mean the liberal church?

          • JeffH

            Jay, Easy-E said “it’s a fact”(ala Alinsky)so it must be true…at least he believes what he says even if no one else does…remember the voluntary poll that confirned 20 out of 20 (Yes that was 20 – 0) didn’t believe Easy-E(aka eddie47d)…not even 1(one)liberal stepped up on his behalf, so that can only mean that the liberals don’t believe him either. Imagine that?

          • Jay

            Infiltration and deception have been tools of conspirators through the ages, and the Church has been a primary target! After all, God warns us that “the whole world is under the sway of the evil one.” (1 John 5:19) One of his most effective schemes is to redefine God’s Word and divert Christians from His unchanging Truth to man’s shifting ideals.

            For example, God calls us to serve the poor and fills our hearts with love for the needy. That’s why His true followers around the world have willingly given their lives to share His truth and love in perilous places. But today’s world-centered church illustrates a different kind of service. Designed to please man rather than God, it trains its servers to hide the “offensive” truths of the gospel.

            Like Rick Warren, it uses the Bible to validate its purposes but emphasizes organizational behavior rather than Biblical beliefs — in short, deeds instead of creeds.[3] Behind its noble appearance hides a postmodern version of the century-old “Christian Socialism.”

            The Social Gospel, Councils of Churches, and Fabian Socialism

            Called “Father of the Social Gospel,” Walter Rauschenbusch (1861-1918), grew up in a German Lutheran immigrant family in New York. He studied theology at the University of Rochester, one of hundreds of educational and “Christian” institutions funded by John D. Rockefeller. After pastoring a Baptist Church among poor immigrants in New York City for a few years, he joined the faculty at Rochester Theological Seminary — also funded by Rockefeller. In 1902 he became its Professor of Church History.

            From this prominent platform, he wrote books such as “Christianizing the Social Order” and “A Theology for the Social Gospel.”[4] Steeped in “higher criticism” and socialist ideology, he taught what many considered a more relevant and compassionate gospel. As a result, he “changed both the emphases and the direction of American Protestantism.”[5]

            Rauschenbusch introduced Jesus “not as one who would come to save sinners from their sins but as one who had a ‘social passion’ for society.”[6] He and his comrades established the “Brotherhood of the Kingdom,” which unified like-minded church leaders under a common socialist quest for an earthly “Kingdom of God.”

            Their plan would have fit our times! It called for political reform, ecumenical unity, “Social Justice” and global peace. To justify its place in “Christian” theology, words like redemption and regeneration were redefined to fit their socialist ideals.[7]

            Sounds familiar, doesn’t it? Popular church leaders use the same strategy today! Pastor Brian McLaren’s recent book, The Secret Message of Jesus, twists God’s Word into an endorsement of an earthly, interfaith Kingdom.[8] Likewise, Tony Campolo’s hope of earthly perfection mocks the Biblical promise of eternal life:

            “The gospel is not about… pie-in-the-sky when they die…. It is imperative that the up and coming generation recognize that the biblical Jesus was committed to the realization of a new social order in this world…. Becoming a Christian, therefore, is a call to social action.”[9]

            In 1907, Rauschenbusch met with the leaders of Fabian socialism in England, Sidney Webb and Beatrice Potter Webb. Unlike impatient Marxist revolutionaries, the methodical Fabians emphasized peaceful transformation through propaganda and infiltration of universities, seminaries and churches.

            Through the years, this socialist movement grew to include Bertrand Russell, H. G. Wells (who wrote Open Conspiracy), playwright George Bernard Shaw, Sinclair Lewis, Theosophical leader Annie Besant, and the Communist leader Harry Dexter White who worked with Alger Hiss to establish the United Nations.[10] It spread through Western nations — thanks, in part, to liberal churches that preached its message as if backed by the authority of God.

            As you saw in Part 1, the Rockefellers and other powerful “change agents” fueled this movement. Their funding would sway universities, seminaries, and churches from coast to coast. It supported psycho-social research through Hitler’s eugenics program, through London’s Tavistock Institute, and through various American Universities and institutions. This new “science” would raise propaganda, persuasion, and mind control to ever more sophisticated levels.

            With Rockefeller support, Rauschenbusch and his Fabian protégé Rev. Harry Ward helped establish the Federal Council of Churches (FCC) in 1908.[11] Rev. Ward, through his Soviet connections and influential positions, would become the main source of Communist infiltration into the FCC (later renamed NCC, National Council of Churches), Christian seminaries, and compassionate unsuspecting pastors and congregations across the country. Hard to believe? Then look at the evidence below.

            Communist Infiltration

            The following testimonies were given under oath before the Committee on Un-American Activities of the U.S. House of Representatives, 83rd Congress, in July, 1953.[12] Robert Kunzig, chief counsel for the committee, asked the questions. Manning Johnson, formerly a top member of the Communist Party, answered this particular set of questions.

            Page 2266, Congressional Record.

            KUNZIG: “…the name Harry Ward has appeared in so many of these various organizations and groups. It seems as if there is almost an interlacing tie-up… through various sects and denominations. Have you any comment to make on this situation?

            JOHNSON: “Yes, I have. Dr. Harry F. Ward, for many years, has been the chief architect for Communist infiltration and subversion in the religious field.

            According to this Congressional Report, Harry Ward also taught “Christian ethics” at Union Theological Seminary [funded by the Rockefellers], presided over the Federal Council of Churches, chaired the American Civil Liberties Union, and worked with the Y.M.C.A., Y.W.C.A. and the Interchurch World Movement.[13]

            Page 2170.

            JOHNSON: “I would first like to read to you what William Z. Foster [General Secretary of the Communist Party USA] has to say on this matter.”

            ‘Communists must ever be keen to cultivate the democratic spirit of mutual tolerance among the religious sects…. A still greater lesson for us to learn, however, is how to work freely with religious strata for the accomplishment of democratic mass objectives….

            ‘A very serious mistake of the American left wing during many years… has been its attempt arbitrarily to wave aside religious sentiments among the masses. Reactionary forces [mainly concerned Christians] have already known how to take advantage of this shortsighted sectarian error…. ‘In recent years, however, the Communist Party, with its policy of ‘the outstretched hand,’ has done much to overcome the harmful left-wing narrowness of former years and to develop a more healthy cooperation with the religious masses….’”

            KUNZIG: “Was deceit a major policy of Communist propaganda and activity?”

            Mr. JOHNSON: “Yes, it was. They made fine gestures and honeyed words to the church people which could be well likened unto the song of the fabled sea nymphs luring millions to moral decay, spiritual death, and spiritual slavery…..”

            Continued: http://www.crossroad.to/articles2/006/conspiracy2.htm

          • Jay

            Jeff- Yes, I remember the 20-0 shellacking! But, considering poor eddie’s capabilities, not exactly a fair contest. Yet, eddie, like a thick-headed liberal that he is, just keeps coming back for more. Masochistic, or just thick-headed? Probably both. Also, a one-trick-pony, is poor old eddie, as his latest statement to song proves it. Classic liberal debating tactics, personal attacks! Therefore, I must once again, remind the good posters of this wonderful site, “The Liberal Debating Tactics” once more!

            SARGE’S GUIDE TO LIBERAL DEBATE TACTICS

            There is an old joke about prisoners in a penitentiary who have heard each other’s jokes so many times, they assigned numbers to them and shout those out, rather than retelling the joke. This Guide is intended for Battalion S2 Commenters to use in the same manner.

            They are not presented in any particular order.

            1. SHOW UP WITH YOUR TALKING POINTS. Make sure you have something that you feel will show your opponents in a negative light, and make that the subject of the discussion.

            2. DEMONIZE YOUR OPPONENT. Attempt to cover them with shame, the same way you would a 4 year old that touches his pee-pee.

            3. IF YOU SEE SOMEONE DOING #2 ABOVE, SUPPORT HIM IMMEDIATELY.

            4. ACCUSE YOU OPPONENT OF SAYING SOMETHING HE DIDN’T. Attempt to define his statements in a negative light. Interpret them this way and state it as fact that he did actually say it. NEVER ask him…always TELL him what his meaning was.

            5. CLAIM THAT IT IS “OLD NEWS” AND NOT WORTHY OF DISCUSSION. This applies especially when the discussion turns to the misdeeds of Democrat Party Leadership.

            6. QUOTE AN UNSOURCED NEW ARTICLE. Always quote the article selectively, or describe it in a general manner.

            7. IF ASKED DIRECT QUESTIONS ABOUT THE NEWS YOU HAVE PROVIDED, RESPOND INDIRECTLY. Never actually answer the specific of the question.

            8. IF ASKED TO SOURCE YOUR NEWS ARTICLE, IGNORE THE QUESTION.

            9. ACCUSE YOUR OPPONENT OF A MENTAL DEFECT OR LACK OF INTELLIGENCE. Personal attacks of this sort are especially useful as the target will almost always try to defend himself, thus changing the subject.

            10. IF THE PARTY LEADERSHIP IS ATTACKED, ATTEMPT TO TURN THE TABLES BY INFERRING THAT SOMEONE IN YOUR OPPONENTS PARTY IS JUST AS BAD.

            11. ACCUSE YOUR OPPONENT OF NOT ANSWERING YOUR QUESTIONS. Try to do this before he has an opportunity to. Try to infer that it you have given him multiple opportunities to do so. Do it even if the question has been answered. If he misses the question and asks you to repeat it DO NOT UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES REPEAT THE QUESTION FOR HIS BENEFIT).

            12. RESORT TO INSULTS. Try to question you opponent’s masculinity, his resolve, ANYTHING, but try to diminish and demean him. (This is know as the “LBJ Rule” codified by him thus: “Accuse your opponent of being a pig fornicator, then make him deny it.) REMEMBER, IF YOU HAVE TO RESORT TO THIS TACTIC, IT MEANS YOUR OPPONENT IS WINNING!

            13. ACCUSE YOUR OPPONENT OF BEING UNINFORMED. This works especially well when you are asked to provide your sources. It is especially effective if you work in a reference to someone you have already demonized. Rush Limbaugh is currently the Demon of Choice.

            14. SPEAK CRYPTICALLY. Try to make it difficult for people to divine your meaning

            15. CHANGE THE SUBJECT. Try to get it back to your original talking points (see #1 above)

            16. APPEAR TO AGREE. You will need to do this in order to achieve #15.

            17. CLAIM YOUR OPPONENT IS BEING UNREASONABLE OR WON’T LISTEN TO REASON, AND LEAVE IN A HUFF.

            18. BAIT YOUR OPPONENT. Needle him, tease him, call him names until he makes an inappropriate post, then scream bloody murder to the Moderator.

            19. DENY THE EVIDENCE EXISTS. Ask for evidence of wrongdoing by those you support. When that evidence is presented, continue denying that it exists.

          • Kate8

            Jay – Hey! The libs use these tactics every day on this site!

            What’s really fun is when you don’t buy into it. Frustrates the heck out of them.

          • Song

            eddie if that is truly your pessimistic view of charitable organizations and churches then there is really nothing to say to you. You have already been well responded too, so I will leave you with this question: Why such blind faith in an over-bloated, corrupt, self-serving and inefficient government? Again, if you wold step out of your little corner of the world, I think you would maybe begin to realize just how narrow-minded and myopic your views are.

          • eddie47d

            Song; I have said several times I am against big government and for fiscal responsibility. I believe you are new here so apparently you didn’t know that. I don’t dance your jig so get use to our differences. I don’t like corrupt,bitter,racist conservatives who talk out of both ends either. That gives me plenty of comments to comment on. Don’t you think?

          • Jay

            eddie’s application of liberal debating tactics # 9. ACCUSE YOUR OPPONENT OF A MENTAL DEFECT OR LACK OF INTELLIGENCE. Personal attacks of this sort are especially useful as the target will almost always try to defend himself, thus changing the subject.

            #13. ACCUSE YOUR OPPONENT OF BEING UNINFORMED. This works especially well when you are asked to provide your sources. It is especially effective if you work in a reference to someone you have already demonized. The Conservatives are currently the Demon of Choice.

      • Jay

        Song, according to Alinsky, the main job of the organizer(eddie) is to bait an opponent into reacting. “The enemy properly goaded and guided in his reaction will be your major strength.

        • JeffH

          Jay, while I can’t argue the premise of the Alinsky style, I have to say that Easy-E does so unknowingly and accidentally. These “accidents” are certainly indicative of the comparisons of progressives to the Alinsky “Rules”, whether accidental or not.
          Having steadily exchanged with Easy-E for closer to 2 years, this is the only conclusion I can come to. He just can’t make Chicken salad out of chicken s***!

          • Kate8

            JeffH – It’s a tactic practiced naturally and automatically by the spoiled and immature.

            This type of person usually grows up to be liberal. It’s a mentality perfectly suited to Alinsky’s purposes. That is, no doubt, how he came up with it.

            The more well-adjusted among us don’t expect it, especially from adults, so it’s easy to get sucked in until you understand what is going on.

          • Jay

            You could be right Jeff. Perhaps, one could conclude that such tactics come naturally to a liberal, a psychological anomaly, perhaps, that is built in their DNA.

          • JeffH

            Kate8, I think you just nailed it down. What I have really noticed is how we’ve(regular posters) called the liberals out continually and literally put them into a defensive position…note how both Karolyn and eddie, Alex, mark are constantly explaining themselves and creating excuses for their comments through avoidance, deflection and redirection. It just doesn’t work once you understand what they are doing and what they are about. Personally I’m glad that Alinsky wrote “Rules for Radicals”. We certainly have a much better idea of where the libs are coming from and where they’re headed…kind of a road map of liberalism/Marxism.

          • eddie47d

            Since Jeff deliberately uses Alinsky tactics he will manipulate each and every one of you. He’s the pro on that kind of behavior.(Jay too) When he can’t and won’t answer a question he goes straight for the name calling. I only call someone a name if they are nasty with me.Listen closely when a “liberal” comments and seldom is there a coherent rebuttal.So we will see who is shutting whom down and who has selective eyesight.(In reading)

          • JeffH

            What I find hilarious Easy-E is that you actually believe what you just said. You’ve just given a pretty solid description of yourself and your actions…you must have been looking in the mirror while you wrote it.

  • Jay

    Members of radical enviromental group Earth First publicly mourn the loss of old growth forests in N. Carolina. This is not satire! Watch video.. http://rightbias.com/News/video95.aspx

  • Jay

    Setting the record straight: HUD Secretary Andrew Cuomo admits and takes credit for forcing banks to make risky loans, under his ‘affirmative action’ plan. Cuomo celebrates a successful settlement of $1.2 billion from a suit in a Fair Housing case.

    ACORN and Obama, working together in Chicago, lobbied Fannie Mae to make high risk loans. ACORN actually employed militant tactics and lawsuits to coerce lenders into lowering credit standards and make high risk loans to people they acknowledged were unqualified.

    ACORN garnered at least $750,000 in ‘fees’ while Obama got elected President of the U.S.

    http://rightbias.com/news/video14.aspx

    • Dan az

      Jay
      Thanks for the site,I had read that before and lost it and have been looking for it ever sense.Thanks :)

      • Kate8

        Jay – I read way back when things went south that Obama was one of the top receivers of kickbacks from Fanny and Freddy.

        Obama, Dodd, Frank…

        • Jay

          What a surprise, hey Kate? More and more, he’s looking like the little-dutch-boy at dam! Soon he’l run out of fingers…ha ha ha LMAO!!!

          • Kate8

            JeffH – It almost seems that someone feathered Obama’s nest and then just dropped him into it.

            Ya think?

        • JeffH

          A group called the Center for Responsive Politics keeps track of which politicians get Fannie and Freddie political contributions. The top three U.S. senators getting big Fannie and Freddie political bucks were Democrats and No. 2 is Sen. Barack Obama.

          Now remember, he’s only been in the Senate four years, but he still managed to grab the No. 2 spot ahead of John Kerry — decades in the Senate — and Chris Dodd, who is chairman of the Senate Banking Committee.

          http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,423701,00.html#ixzz1UyCB5x60

          • Kate8

            JeffH – Above post should have been here.

          • JeffH

            Kate8, well we kow Soros was one of them as was his “I barely know him” buddy Ayers, although less monetarily I s’pose.

          • Kate8

            JeffH – According to some investigators, it’s already been established that O has a connection with the more treasonous side of the CIA. He was chosen by those with the NWO and MIC long before anyone had heard of him.

            They went to a lot of trouble to cover his past, and fabricate a history for him.

            It’s also been reported that he received funding largely from the Saudis and the Soviets.

          • JeffH

            Kate8, I’ve read some of that…Was Obama A CIA AGENT? You Be The Judge!
            http://dancingczars.wordpress.com/2010/03/21/was-obama-a-cia-agent-you-be-the-judge/

          • JeffH

            Kate8, his connection with Frank Marshall Davis, who was a known communist is well known, although not through any MSM portals. Davis belonged to a party, CPUSA,that was subservient to the Soviet Union. In fact, the 1951 report of the Commission on Subversive Activities to the Legislature of the Territory of Hawaii identified him as a CPUSA member. What’s more, anti-communist congressional committees, including the House Un-American Activities Committee (HUAC), accused Davis of involvement in several communist-front organizations.

            That is just another “radical” connection the Obamanites have attempted to hide from.
            http://www.aim.org/aim-column/obamas-communist-mentor/

      • Jay

        Your welcome Dan, spread the news!

      • Jay

        Hey Dan, love the pick!!! LMAO

  • Dan az

    Bob Livingston
    I have changed my mind on the new set up to the site,I like it now for all the info that we can pick up now.But I would like to see if you or who ever dose the programing could make it so when you go to that spot where it shows replies instantly, could it be possible to make it so when you click on one of the replies that it would go to that particular point at which it was given?I like the idea because you see were everyone is and you know it was just posted but every time I am sent to the begining of the comments and have to fish my way through them all to find the latest post.Thanks for trying to read and make sense of what I’m asking for. :)

    • JeffH

      Brother Dan, that’s a great idea if it’s possible.

      • Dan az

        Jeff
        It must be possible if I can use the bookmarks to come back then why couldn’t they do the same with this.I’m really starting to like the way that spot on the front page works because I can see if anyone is there at the same place and when they post,its cool.I’m sure they can do it and make it a lot easier on us to boot.

        • JeffH

          Dan, agreed, I hope that feature can be added…I definately like the new format too.

    • DaveH

      I’m not following you, Dan. Could you explain that a little better?
      I’m also issuing this comment to test what I think you are talking about.

      • DaveH

        Okay Dan, I think I know what you mean now.
        Highlight enough text from their comment to make it unique or nearly so.
        Then pick the link.
        Then paste the highlighted text in your browser’s find function.

        That will get you where you want to go until Bob puts a direct link in there.

        • libertytrain

          I’m not sure if what you are suggesting would be possible in this case – since the comments are coming in as they post, no one is doing it at the site. It ties to the article but not the comment. And yes, Dave, what you’re suggesting makes sense. Let’s wait and see if this gets a response next week —-

  • Jay

    A MUST SEE VIDEO!!!

    In a short 2 1/2 minutes, Milton Friedman effectively destroys all arguments against free market capitalism.

    http://rightbias.com/news/video4.aspx

    • chuckb

      it’s too easy, the bolsheviks will never understand it.

  • Kate8

    This just in:

    It seems that most of our elected officials lack understanding of our Constitution. Even the ones we rely on to know. It’s more critical now than ever that we have people with clear comprehension, or…

    http://www.libertylegalfoundation.net/?p=1141

    • DaveH

      I think he was picking nits with Ron Paul. I could find only one passage in the Constitution that even remotely pertains to prohibiting the States from mandating Health Care Insurance.
      That was in the 14th Amendment:
      “nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law”.
      No state SHOULD be able to force its citizens to purchase a good against their will, but I sure couldn’t find any Constitutional passage that stated that explicitly.

  • chuckb

    kate8, there’s no doubt in my mind bachmann and paul know more about the constitution than the majority of people. i think when they are under pressure in these debates they will make a mistake her and there.

    what gets me is this, barry makes a speech a day and no one in the media questions what he says, his fabrications and distortions just roll off their back. let a conservative stutter when answering and they get massacred.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch_popup?v=xOAgT8L_BqQ

    • Jay

      That’s what i though, perhaps jitters.

      • Kate8

        chuckb and Jay – True, but in this case the author was not trying to massacre Paul or Bachmann, but merely point out the need for in depth understanding of our Constitution in order to present a viable case against passing unConstutional laws like O’care.

        Perhaps it was from being put on the spot. Hopefully they went home and did some studying.

        BTW, I would agree that Paul and Bachmann have above-average knowledge of the Constitution.

  • Jay

    Liberals re-writing history.

    Several recent studies have shown that American students are alarmingly ignorant about U.S. history and world events.

    Experts have attributed the problem to everything from failing schools to substandard teachers.

    But what about content?

    Who Discovered America?

    For instance, did you know that Muslims discovered America? Or that Jerusalem is an Arab city? That’s just some of the “history” that students in America’s K-12 classrooms have been taught in recent years–with the help of taxpayer money.

    A new report by the non-profit Institute for Jewish and Community Research finds that American high school and elementary textbooks contain countless inaccuracies about Christianity, Judaism, Israel and the Middle East.

    The Institute examined 28 of the most widely-used history, geography and social studies textbooks in America. It found at least 500 errors.

    One book ignored the Jewish roots of Christianity, saying the faith was founded by a “young Palestinian” named Jesus.

    Another stated as fact that the Koran was revealed to Mohammed from God.

    Yet another said ancient Jewish civilization contributed “very little” to to the arts and sciences.

    The Stealth Curriculum

    Textbooks like these are used by millions of schoolchildren in all 50 states. Sandra Stotsky–now an endowed chair at the University of Arkansas–has seen some of them firsthand.

    Stotsky was a commissioner at the Massachusetts Department of Education from 1999 until 2003. In that role, she helped set standards for students and teachers on the K thru 12 level. Stotsky wrote a book about her experience developing standards and professional development for history teachers called The Stealth Curriculum.

    “We heard from a number of groups who were outraged because they didn’t want what they called a ‘Euro-centric’ version of history,” said Stotsky. “They literally wanted an Islamo-centric version of history. Which means you look at the world from the perspective of Islam and you don’t talk about any negative aspects of Islam.”

    Islamic Seminar

    After the 9/11 attacks, the Massachusetts Board of Education funded a special seminar for K-12 teachers to learn about Islamic history and the Middle East.

    Read the rest herehttp: //www.cbn.com/cbnnews/us/2009/January/Public-Schools-Teach-the-ABCs-of-Islam-/

  • Thinking About

    Seems like I heard the statement of rewriting history before. Oh yes I got it, it was Palin reworking Paul Revere’s ride. Or was it Palin rewriting she could see Russia from her porch. Or maybe I heard about tabloid reporting by faux news.

    • Jay

      Liberal debating tactic #10. IF THE PARTY LEADERSHIP IS ATTACKED, ATTEMPT TO TURN THE TABLES BY INFERRING THAT SOMEONE IN YOUR OPPONENTS PARTY IS JUST AS BAD.

      • Kate8

        Jay – It would be great if someone would call the libs on these tactics whenever they’re used.

        Which is most of their posts.

      • JeffH

        That is simply the liberal mentality of two wrongs make a right…we see it every dat.

      • Jay

        Kate, I think we should start responding to liberal postings by pointing out their liberal debating tactics, rather then discussing the topic at hand with these emotionally driven baboons. There’s no point in debating them on the issue being discussed, as they will always resort to their underhanded debating tactics. Instead, we should deal with their comments by recognizing their juvenile, and sneaky underhanded tactics, and not debating them on the issue. This will ensure that we won’t be sucked into their circular arguments that lead no-where, and as a result render us exhausted and frustrated. For this is their goal and aim, not necessarily to discuss the subject, but to get us on a defensive by attacking us personally, making outrageous comments so as to incite to anger, denigrating that which we hold dear, ect. ect…Twisted bunch, aren’t they?

    • DaveH

      Since About is repeating his ignorance, I will repeat the link that proves his ignorance:
      http://www.slate.com/id/2200155/

      • Jay

        Repeating his ignorance that clearly displays his lack of intellectual integrity, is one thing, but to do it so unabashedly is proof positive that liberal care not for truth and reason, as that would require the use of their brain, but care only for their stomachs and genitalia . Not only is “thinking about” a “non-thinking” liberal robot, he’s a desperate one as well, as his asinine accusation that Sarah Palin is rewriting history confirms! Liberals are their own worst enemies!!!

        • Thinking About

          Jay, you must have slept through Palin’s Paul Revere’s ride but her version is not as recorded in history books. I also did not hear her explain this on tabloid news sources. Maybe you should educate Palin.

          • JeffH

            TA, are you somehow related to eddie47d? Just askin’?

            FYI – NPR: Palin Mostly Correct on Paul Revere’s Ride

            We are going to fact-check Palin’s Paul Revere history now with Robert Allison. He’s chair of the history department at Suffolk University in Boston.

            Orof. Allison: Revere isn’t trying to alert the British, but he is trying to warn them. And in April of 1775, no one was talking about independence. We’re still part of the British Empire. We’re trying to save it. So this is a warning to the British Empire what will happen if you provoke Americans.

            BLOCK: And Sarah Palin also was saying there that Paul Revere’s message to the British in his warning was: you’re not going to take American arms. You know, basically a Second Amendment argument, even though the Second Amendment didn’t exist then.

            Prof. ALLISON: Yeah. She was making a Second Amendment case. But, in fact, the British were going out to Concord to seize colonists’ arms, the weapons that the Massachusetts Provincial Congress was stockpiling there.

            BLOCK: So you think basically, on the whole, Sarah Palin got her history right.

            Prof. ALLISON: Well, yeah, she did. And remember, she is a politician. She’s not an historian. And God help us when historians start acting like politicians, and I suppose when politicians start writing history.

          • Jay

            Liberal debating tactic #13. ACCUSE YOUR OPPONENT OF BEING UNINFORMED. This works especially well when you are asked to provide your sources. It is especially effective if you work in a reference to someone you have already demonized. Rush Limbaugh, or Sarah Palin are currently the Demons of Choice.

          • Jay

            Jeff, liberals are so intellectually bankrupt that even one of their own, Sam Harris, a self-proclaimed liberal, calls them a bunch of intellectual baboons! Here’s the article:

            Head-in-the-Sand Liberals
            Western civilization really is at risk from Muslim extremists.
            By Sam Harris

            Los Angeles Times, September 18, 2006

            TWO YEARS AGO I published a book highly critical of religion, “The End of Faith.” In it, I argued that the world’s major religions are genuinely incompatible, inevitably cause conflict and now prevent the emergence of a viable, global civilization. In response, I have received many thousands of letters and e-mails from priests, journalists, scientists, politicians, soldiers, rabbis, actors, aid workers, students — from people young and old who occupy every point on the spectrum of belief and nonbelief.

            This has offered me a special opportunity to see how people of all creeds and political persuasions react when religion is criticized. I am here to report that liberals and conservatives respond very differently to the notion that religion can be a direct cause of human conflict.

            This difference does not bode well for the future of liberalism.

            Perhaps I should establish my liberal bone fides at the outset. I’d like to see taxes raised on the wealthy, drugs decriminalized and homosexuals free to marry. I also think that the Bush administration deserves most of the criticism it has received in the last six years — especially with respect to its waging of the war in Iraq, its scuttling of science and its fiscal irresponsibility.

            But my correspondence with liberals has convinced me that liberalism has grown dangerously out of touch with the realities of our world — specifically with what devout Muslims actually believe about the West, about paradise and about the ultimate ascendance of their faith.

            On questions of national security, I am now as wary of my fellow liberals as I am of the religious demagogues on the Christian right.

            This may seem like frank acquiescence to the charge that “liberals are soft on terrorism.” It is, and they are.

            A cult of death is forming in the Muslim world — for reasons that are perfectly explicable in terms of the Islamic doctrines of martyrdom and jihad. The truth is that we are not fighting a “war on terror.” We are fighting a pestilential theology and a longing for paradise.

            This is not to say that we are at war with all Muslims. But we are absolutely at war with those who believe that death in defense of the faith is the highest possible good, that cartoonists should be killed for caricaturing the prophet and that any Muslim who loses his faith should be butchered for apostasy.
            Unfortunately, such religious extremism is not as fringe a phenomenon as we might hope. Numerous studies have found that the most radicalized Muslims tend to have better-than-average educations and economic opportunities.

            Given the degree to which religious ideas are still sheltered from criticism in every society, it is actually possible for a person to have the economic and intellectual resources to build a nuclear bomb — and to believe that he will get 72 virgins in paradise. And yet, despite abundant evidence to the contrary, liberals continue to imagine that Muslim terrorism springs from economic despair, lack of education and American militarism.

            At its most extreme, liberal denial has found expression in a growing subculture of conspiracy theorists who believe that the atrocities of 9/11 were orchestrated by our own government. A nationwide poll conducted by the Scripps Survey Research Center at Ohio University found that more than a third of Americans suspect that the federal government “assisted in the 9/11 terrorist attacks or took no action to stop them so the United States could go to war in the Middle East;” 16% believe that the twin towers collapsed not because fully-fueled passenger jets smashed into them but because agents of the Bush administration had secretly rigged them to explode.

            Such an astonishing eruption of masochistic unreason could well mark the decline of liberalism, if not the decline of Western civilization. There are books, films and conferences organized around this phantasmagoria, and they offer an unusually clear view of the debilitating dogma that lurks at the heart of liberalism: Western power is utterly malevolent, while the powerless people of the Earth can be counted on to embrace reason and tolerance, if only given sufficient economic opportunities.

            I don’t know how many more engineers and architects need to blow themselves up, fly planes into buildings or saw the heads off of journalists before this fantasy will dissipate. The truth is that there is every reason to believe that a terrifying number of the world’s Muslims now view all political and moral questions in terms of their affiliation with Islam. This leads them to rally to the cause of other Muslims no matter how sociopathic their behavior. This benighted religious solidarity may be the greatest problem facing civilization and yet it is regularly misconstrued, ignored or obfuscated by liberals.

            Given the mendacity and shocking incompetence of the Bush administration — especially its mishandling of the war in Iraq — liberals can find much to lament in the conservative approach to fighting the war on terror. Unfortunately, liberals hate the current administration with such fury that they regularly fail to acknowledge just how dangerous and depraved our enemies in the Muslim world are.

            Recent condemnations of the Bush administration’s use of the phrase “Islamic fascism” are a case in point. There is no question that the phrase is imprecise — Islamists are not technically fascists, and the term ignores a variety of schisms that exist even among Islamists — but it is by no means an example of wartime propaganda, as has been repeatedly alleged by liberals.

            In their analyses of U.S. and Israeli foreign policy, liberals can be relied on to overlook the most basic moral distinctions. For instance, they ignore the fact that Muslims intentionally murder noncombatants, while we and the Israelis (as a rule) seek to avoid doing so. Muslims routinely use human shields, and this accounts for much of the collateral damage we and the Israelis cause; the political discourse throughout much of the Muslim world, especially with respect to Jews, is explicitly and unabashedly genocidal.

            Given these distinctions, there is no question that the Israelis now hold the moral high ground in their conflict with Hamas and Hezbollah. And yet liberals in the United States and Europe often speak as though the truth were otherwise.

            We are entering an age of unchecked nuclear proliferation and, it seems likely, nuclear terrorism. There is, therefore, no future in which aspiring martyrs will make good neighbors for us. Unless liberals realize that there are tens of millions of people in the Muslim world who are far scarier than Dick Cheney, they will be unable to protect civilization from its genuine enemies.

            Increasingly, Americans will come to believe that the only people hard-headed enough to fight the religious lunatics of the Muslim world are the religious lunatics of the West. Indeed, it is telling that the people who speak with the greatest moral clarity about the current wars in the Middle East are members of the Christian right, whose infatuation with biblical prophecy is nearly as troubling as the ideology of our enemies. Religious dogmatism is now playing both sides of the board in a very dangerous game.
            While liberals should be the ones pointing the way beyond this Iron Age madness, they are rendering themselves increasingly irrelevant. Being generally reasonable and tolerant of diversity, liberals should be especially sensitive to the dangers of religious literalism. But they aren’t.

            The same failure of liberalism is evident in Western Europe, where the dogma of multiculturalism has left a secular Europe very slow to address the looming problem of religious extremism among its immigrants. The people who speak most sensibly about the threat that Islam poses to Europe are actually fascists.

            To say that this does not bode well for liberalism is an understatement: It does not bode well for the future of civilization.

          • Kate8

            Wow. Thanks, Jay.

            It is, indeed, troubling the way liberals form their views of the world. They first form and unrealistic ideology of how, in their minds, things SHOULD be, and then dismiss all common sense when observing world events.

            Kind of like karolyn, they believe that, if you hold a particular view of utopia, denying all aspects of reality, it will eventually happen that way.

            The problem is, there are too many differing agendas and opinions for that to ever happen. There is never enough power in it. So they seek to convert everyone into their mindset, regardless of the cost to personal freedom, thinking that the ends justify the means.

            They also tend to have a suicidal bent to them, condemning their own while elevating others, no matter how brutal or backward the culture. Their attitude is so arrogant that they believe that, with a little understanding and tolerance, even the most violent society will come around to their thinking, since the reason for their violence is that they are simply misunderstood and oppressed by the West.

            I used to hang with the liberals. I know how they think. Libs like karolyn view themselves as a shining light to a sea of ignorant, misled humanity, and that if they just continue to nudge us, eventually we, too, will understand the wisdom of their superior outlook.

            Great job once again, Jay.

            Keep ‘em coming.

          • DaveH

            Are you a masochist, About? Seems to me that you are doing some of the same re-directing that Jeff was talking about earlier, instead of just admitting you were wrong.
            Why don’t you just come over from the dark side and quit trying to match wits with superior intellects?

  • Kate8

    Check out this video on the economy with Johathan Emory.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5HVc2p0Pkkw

    Other interviews with him also worth seeing.

    Yikes.

    • Jay

      Yikes is right Kate, and downright maddening. The criminal parasite that sucks the life-blood from our country must corralled, and politically exterminated. And not just from the political arena, but from every other societal organ they managed to infiltrate, and corrupt! Thanks for the link, i have bookmarked it, and will share it!

    • JeffH

      Kate8, excellant video. Haven’t we(the posters here at PLD)been having discussions like this for a couple of years now?

      Haven’t the contributing writers been posting articles mentioning these actions & issues?

      Haven’t the liberals been calling us non-liberals “mean, stupid, ignorant, uneducated , racist and paranoid” for talikng about these & similar issues?

      Go figure?

  • chuckb

    thinking about, does the warden know you are still up? quit inhaling the dummy dust and go to sleep.

    • Thinking About

      Chuckle boy, hit on a soft nerve? Get used to hearing the truth for a while, it will do your soul well. Truth will set you free so I don’t have a warden.

      • DaveH

        First you’ve got to give us some truth to get used to.

  • Jay

    The Cybernetics of Liberalism
    by PETER KREEFT(Philosophy Professor)

    I have come up with a cybernetic hypothesis about liberalism: It’s a brain disorder, a confusion between right and left hemispheres.

    Peter Kreeft

    Cybernetics (basically, the science of the brain qua computer) explains much more than we realized. They used to think schizophrenia was due to demons. Then it was bad parenting. Now some think it may be bad brain wiring. They used to think déjà vu (“Hey! I’ve been here before!”) was evidence of reincarnation. Now we know it’s a cybernetic mixup that misfiles new perceptions into the brain’s old memory banks.

    Some are now claiming that homosexuality is cybernetic predestination. The jury is still out on that one, but I have come up with a cybernetic hypothesis about liberalism: It’s a brain disorder, a confusion between right and left hemispheres. I have no hard data to prove this, but I think I see some strong clues, a recurring pattern in the symptoms that suggests such a diagnosis. Here are some of those clues.

    You might be a liberal if …

    Ever since I began teaching philosophy to college students in 1962, I have been puzzled by the fact that some of them actually find Heidegger easier to understand than Aquinas, Kant than Aristotle, Dewey than James, Hegel than Plato. These students do fairly well when tested on the muddy, fuzzy ideological thinkers, but they get a mental block when they try to understand the clear, commonsensical ones. Clearly they cannot fathom clarity, and certainly not certainty. They simply cannot believe that a philosopher can be clear and certain about anything important.

    Just last week I read a batch of short critical student book reviews of my nonscholarly little book, Angels and Demons. I expected many diverse criticisms and arguments, but the only one I got, over and over, was a critique of my use of definitions and arguments as such. It was not only skepticism about the applicability of logical thinking to the topic of angels; it was a skepticism (or even more, a loathing and fear) of logical thinking as applied to anything real, especially in theology. They were simply dumbfounded that any sane person could think he could prove anything in theology. Not surprisingly, the most popular majors among such students are communications, sociology, English, and (heaven help us) theology. Never the natural sciences.

    A second puzzling phenomenon I find in my students is what C. S. Lewis calls “chronological snobbery:” the view that an idea need not be refuted, just sneered at as unfashionable; that “we are the people, and wisdom will die with us;” that history presents us with a simple “good guys vs. bad guys” scenario — not intellectually (the wise vs. the foolish) or morally (saints vs. sinners), but chronologically (the “tradition-bound,” the “primitive,” the “closed,” or the “stagnant” vs. the “enlightened,” the “nuanced,” the “open,” or the “dynamic”). They call this “the historical point of view;” I call it dissolving the rock of truth into the sands of time. Truth for them is a process, a river with no origin and no end, that never reaches the sea but always gets wider and truer as it flows on and on.

    The popularity of this historical relativism has always puzzled my simplistic mind because it is obviously self-contradictory. If progressivism is true and traditionalism false, then there must be a real true and false; but that is precisely what traditionalism claims and progressivism denies. It is only a slightly more sophisticated version of the silly old skepticism that says, “It is true that there is no truth.”

    But the most puzzling phenomenon of all was my discovery of the coexistence of these opposite errors in the same minds. And this was almost always the case. “Liberals” almost always embrace both “gray logic” (error #1) and “black-and-white history” (error #2). I could understand, though I could not approve, an antipathy to all black or white thinking, or an antipathy to all gradual, contextual thinking; but liberalism seemed to marry these opposite errors. It imposed the simplicity of logic on the complexity of history, and it also imposed the complexity of history onto the simplicity of logic.

    Then the sun suddenly rose in my mind.

    File not found

    It is common knowledge that the brain has two hemispheres. The right one is the instrument for intuitive, contextual, and gradualist thinking; the left one, for analytical, logical, black-and-white thinking. The right is an analog computer with “both/and” logic, and the left is a digital computer with “either/or” logic. The right hemisphere performs what medieval logicians called “the first act of the mind:” understanding the meaning of a concept (like “just” or “Mommy’s nasty attitude”); and the left hemisphere performs “the second act of the mind,” comparing one concept with a second to form a proposition (e.g. “Mommy’s nasty attitude is not just”). It also performs “the third act of the mind,” arguing from the truth of some propositions as premises to the truth of others as conclusions (e.g., “What is not just need not be respected; Mommy’s nasty attitude is not just; therefore it need not be respected”).

    Whether we are adults or children, philosophers or rock stars, we can all do both kinds of thinking. We all know that some things are zero-sum, black-or-white, absolute. Either there is a God or there is not; either some abortion is morally licit for some people or no abortion is. Two propositions that contradict each other cannot both be true; if one is true, the other must be false. We also know that some things are not quantitative but qualitative; not zero-sum but fractional or gradual; not black or white but gray. For example, in the proposition “God is good,” what does “God” mean? Trinitarianism, Unitarianism, generic theism, agnosticism, pantheism, polytheism, deism, apophatic mysticism? And what does “good” mean? Morally good, ontologically good, psychologically good, practically good, economically good? And just how good must a thing be in order to be “good?” There is an almost endless range of possible meanings to “good.” But once two concepts are defined in a single (“univocal”) way, a proposition that connects them has only two possibilities: true or false; and an argument using such propositions has only two possibilities: logically valid or logically invalid, consistent or inconsistent.

    What does this logic lesson have to do with liberalism? My hypothesis is that Liberalism combines errors because, like déjà vu, it misfiles things. It confuses hemispheres. It rejects “either/or thinking” where “either/or thinking” is necessary — in judging propositions and arguments; and it accepts “either/or thinking” where “either/or thinking” is inappropriate — in judging concepts by their place in history rather than by their intrinsic wisdom. It is judgmental about history but not about ideas. It treats history as a matter of “good guys vs. bad guys,” i.e., progressivists vs. traditionalists; but it will not treat any doctrines as clearly and simply true or false. It refuses to be simplistic about truth vs. falsehood or good vs. evil, but it is simplistic about past vs. present.

    It’s the sex, stupid!

    Once I noticed the strange pattern of this brain disorder, I looked for its cause, moving from the symptoms to the diagnosis. I thought I might find some clues to lead me to the culprit if I first found some other similar symptoms. So I Iooked for other pairs of opposite liberal errors, other cybernetic misfilings. And in doing so I think I discovered the cause of the misfiling. I asked myself why liberals are more concerned for the rights of criminals than of victims, more protective of the guilty than of the innocent; why they justify the killing of innocent unborn babies but not convicted adult murderers. And I thought it was the same reason they give Clinton such a high approval rating: they instinctively sympathize with those who resemble themselves, i.e., those who are willing to murder, but not with those who are the most unlike themselves, i.e., the innocent. But that only deepens the mystery. What leads to this misfiling?

    Continued: http://www.catholiceducation.org/articles/politics/pg0026.html

    • Kate8

      Jay – Again, magnificent article.

      It makes sense. Liberals, being sexually/morally depraved, seek to sanctify their immoral behavior by defending the underdog, however vile it might be. This, then, “proves” that they are “good people”. Therefore, their chosen lifestyle must be “good”, as well.

      I’ve always wondered how Lucifer, once living in the full of God’s Grace, could possible desire to rebel against such Magnificence. It didn’t make sense to me. But all one has to do is observe Liberalism, how man chooses the profane over the glorious simply for the sake of his own indulgence (they don’t need any stinkin’ rules).

      And it’s not enough just to rebel. He must take all of humanity down with him, by force, if necessary, by convincing mankind that he is, indeed, himself divine and, as such, can make “good” anything he chooses to deem good. And that anyone who clings to the “old rules” is outmoded and unaware of who he “truly” is.

      So, satan has used these lies to mislead man time after time, right down the highway to destruction.

      And liberals think what they are doing is “new”, and “progressive”.

      No thanks. I’ll cling to His Eternal Truth.

      Just call me old fashioned. I consider it a compliment.

      • Jay

        Now that, is magnificent insight on your part, kate. Well done! Your review of the article should be posted for all to see!

    • Master Gunny

      Sir,
      What a breath of fresh air! A very insightful post and one that has both profound and urgent consequences. If the pathology of liberalism is “nature” then it is much more diffcult to remediate but if it is “nuture”, as I believe it is, then we have a real chance of stemming the rot.
      With apologies to the ladies who frequent this blog an old friend of mine made the comment that liberals tend to be men with women’s souls. Rather than initiators they have become responders. Rather than thinkers they have become emoters. Logic is replaced with intuition and feelings. Harsh truths are not pleasant and therefore are discarded in favor of utopian fantasies.
      It is heartening to learn that at least one member oc acedemia is fighting the good fight. Proselytize your peers. Only through a philosophical renaissance can our nation, and the world, regain the high ground, an essential part of which is rediscovering their God.

  • Earl, QUEENS, NY

    Of course we should fight!! BE REALISTIC!! Had Americans fled in the late 1700s, and not fought against tyranny, we wouldn’t have had this great nation for over 2 centuries. Most polls indicate that liberals, progressives and leftists are a minority, and are outnumbered by those of us who are right to center. But sadly our side doesn’t often show this in elections. It’s vital that everyone on our side get to the polls –m in both primaries and November general elections. In the former, we should choose the most conservative (GOP) candidates possible, and defeat the RINOs and GOP wimps who too often side with the Democraps. In the latter, we must defeat as many democraps as possible. Remember – there are no JFKs in today’s Democrap party, which has been taken over by the malcontent hippies of the 1960s. Today’s Democraps are our greatest enemy!!

    Hopefully we can peacefully defeat our enemies in 2012 and future elections. But if worse comes to worst, we shouldn’t rule out doing what our founders would do if they saw what the leftwing democraps have done to our once great nation in recent years. If anyone is to flee from America, let it be Obama, Pelosi, Reid, and their leftwing ilk. Let them go to Cuba, North Korea, Venezuela, or their own remote areas of the world where they can form their own socialist Utopias. And let them take all the drones, environmentalist wackos, etc. with them!!!!

  • JeffH

    I do not like this Uncle Sam, I do not like his health care scam.
    I do not like these dirty crooks, or how they lie & cook the books.
    I do not like when Congress steals, I do not like their secret deals.
    I do not like ex-speaker Nan, I do not like this ‘YES WE CAN’..
    I do not like this spending spree, I’m smart, I know that nothing’s free.
    I do not like their smug replies, when I complain about their lies.
    I do not like this kind of hope. I do not like it.
    Nope, nope, nope!

    Dr. Suess

  • DaveH
  • Joyce Foster-Konya

    A True American would never leave this country. He would stay and fight and boot the enemy out!

    Thank Goodness for our fighting men and women and all the American Patriots. There are many weak Americans that depend on someone else to do the right thing. It’s time they swallow their pride or whatever it is that makes them run the other way and stand up like the rest of us and fight, fight, fignt! This is America and we should fight for it! We are the adults and we have to protect our children and the elderly! We caused this mess and we have to fix it one way or the other.

    • Kate8

      Joyce – I hear ya.

      Are you willing to lead the charge?

  • Jay

    Debating Liberals
    by:
    Nancy Morgan
    RightBias.com
    March 31, 2008
    How does one debate with a liberal? Sorry, under current rules, debate is not allowed. Just as our new national conversation on race is limited exclusively to authentic blacks, so is any semblance of debate with those on the left limited to those who accept the rules of debate, as defined by liberals.

    Just as Boy Clinton redefined the meaning of sex, so have liberals redefined the meaning of debate. If your view doesn’t accord with the progressive, politically correct elites, the debate is relabeled an ‘argument’, your opinion is redefined as a ‘judgment’ and both are promptly dismissed.

    By controlling language, the left controls and defines the issues. Hillary didn’t lie about being under fire in Bosnia, she merely misspoke. The rules stipulate that only conservatives lie. If you’re on the left, you’re either factually incorrect, mistaken or just plain human. Liberals call this a win-win situation, which is one of the few times they are factually correct.

    If the member of the vast right wing conspiracy (conservative) persists in trying to debate the original issue, liberals then revert to personal attacks. Attacking the messenger as mean-spirited usually does the trick. The indignant liberal then has carte blanche to personally vilify the messenger while touting his own moral vitas. Very effective.

    By this time, the subject of the argument is long forgotten. If, however, the rude, argumentative conservative persists in addressing inconvenient facts, the liberal invariably points to ‘bad behavior’ by others, as if that excuses all bad behavior. That’s called the ‘Everyone Else Does It So It Must Be OK’ defense. Voila, the debate veers again from the original issue and turns into a catalogue of left vs. right scandals. Needless to say, if the ‘Everyone Else Does It’ defense was valid, we’d still have slavery.

    If the MOTVRWC is still standing, demanding an answer to the original issue, which has yet to be addressed, the beleaguered liberal will kindly inform one and all that the debate is over. The question has been settled. Case closed. It is now time to, you guessed it, Move On.

    The best scenario for liberals, however, is to avoid debate altogether. This is called the pre-emptive defense. Gore just gave us a prime example when he declared on 60 Minutes that anyone who doesn’t believe in global warming probably also believes the earth is flat. Can you spell Neanderthal? Another pre-emptive defense includes labeling any dissenting view as propaganda which, of course, is unworthy of debate.

    Another neat trick the left uses to avoid debating inconvenient facts (formerly called corruption, perjury, lies, theft, adultery, etc.) is to cry foul and whine about being taken out of context. This is called a do-over, and usually leads to more media face time to explain what they really meant. Another win-win situation. If the do-over is done with panache, the offender is magically transformed into a martyr and/or victim by a complaisant media. This is called spin. Again, it only works for liberals.

    The question arises, do liberals really believe their own arguments? Does Gore really believe the earth is in crisis? Does Hillary really believe there is a vast right wing conspiracy? Do 50% of Americans really believe Bush lied? I have an inquiring mind. I’d like to know. So I set out in search of a liberal I could debate.

    I started on My Space by sending a friend request to a (gorgeous) liberal guy who billed himself as open minded. He replied, questioning why I wanted to be friends with a liberal. Duh. I told him I wanted to find a liberal who could actually debate both sides of an issue. OK. He read one of my conservative articles and, to his credit, he responded with a lengthy critique. So far, so good. I wrote back, pointing out that his response dealt only with feelings, not facts. Alas, I now have one less friend on My Space. Did I mention how cute he was?

    My next step: The Daily Kos, hotbed of the far left. I posted my latest article White Racism in their forum. Here’s the response:

    I have requested your banning from Daily Kos. We have no interest in, or use for, your filth.
    When I entered the Kos forum to answer the 50 some comments on my article, I found I was no longer allowed to participate in the conversation. I had been banned.

    On to the Huffington Post. I again posted a conservative article, and when I logged in to join the debate, I found that I was banned, my posting privileges were revoked. No answer from the moderators as to why.

    This experience was repeated on other liberal forums. To date, I have yet to find a liberal who will debate an issue on the facts. With the one exception of my lovely niece, Sarah.

    This refusal to debate on the left no longer angers me. I know that no matter how flat the pancake, there are always two sides. By ignoring and censoring debate, liberals invalidate only themselves, not the opposing view. Just because the majority of them believe something is so, doesn’t make it so. They can redefine the meaning of the word ‘is’, but ultimately, reality is defined by God, not man. To liberals, that is unthinkable. Which is probably why they don’t think about it. Or acknowledge it. Or debate it.

    http://rightbias.com/Articles/033008debate.aspx

    • Karolyn

      Very interesting Jay.

    • Kate8

      Jay – I have heard from many that liberal sites don’t allow opposing viewpoints. I guess they just don’t want to risk exposing their flock to reason.

      This afternoon I watched a great Mel Gibson movie called “The Edge of Darkness”. Maybe you’ve seen it. (The actor playing the senator from Massachusetts bore a striking resemblance to John Kerry.) It’s a political thriller.

      Anyway, in the midst of deception and conspiracy, a law officer explained that, “It’s not how things ARE. It’s how they LOOK”.

      Therein is the law of politics.

      • Jay

        Kate, I’ve tried liberal sites a couple of times and experienced the same thing. You either tow the party line or you are simply dismissed, banned. No, they do not like opposing views. They’re like a cult, everyone thinks, speaks, and votes the same, they all read the same literature, re-written history according to liberals. I would call-it “Political in-breeding”. They seem to be building a master race, reminiscent of Hitler’s master race, except they are do it with under-evolved baboons, same thing! Btw, banana shares are way up!

        Yes, I have seen “The edge of Darkness”, great movie! The quote from the movie pretty much sums it all up. The liberals should consider using it for their slogan campaign!

    • eddie47d

      Then you Jay must eat one sided pancakes!

  • chuckb

    David LoPour

    The Fundamental Transformation of America

    When Obama wrote a a book and said he was mentored as a youth by Frank (Frank Marshall Davis) an avowed Communist, people said it didn’t matter.

    When it was discovered that his grandparents, were strong socialists who sent Obama’s mother to a socialist school where she was introduced to Frank Marshall Davis. He was later introduced to young Barrack Hussein Obama. People said it didn’t matter.

    When people found out that Barrack Hussein Obama was enrolled as a Muslim child in school and his father and stepfather were both Muslims, people said it didn’t matter.

    When he wrote in another book he authored “I will stand with them (Muslims) should the political winds shift in an ugly direction”, people said it didn’t matter.

    When he admittedly, in his book, said he chose Marxist friends and professors in college, people said it didn’t matter.

    When he traveled to Pakistan , after college on an unknownnational passport, people said it didn’t matter.

    When he sought the endorsement of the Marxist Party in 1996 as he ran for the Illinois Senate, people said it didn’t matter.

    When he sat in a Chicago Church for twenty years and listened to a preacher spew hatred for America and preach black liberation theology, people said it didn’t matter.

    When an independent Washington organization, that tracks Senate voting records, gave him the distinctive title as the “most liberal senator,” people said it didn’t matter.

    When the Palestinians in Gaza set up a fund raising telethon to raise money for his election campaign, people said it didn’t matter.

    When his voting record supported gun control, people said it didn’t matter.

    When he refused to disclose who donated money to his election campaign, as other candidates had done, people said it didn’t matter.

    When he received endorsements from people like Louis Farrakhan and Mummar Kadaffi and
    Hugo Chavez, people said it didn’t matter.

    When it was pointed out that he was a total newcomer and had absolutely no experience at anything except community organizing, people said it didn’t matter.

    When he chose friends and acquaintances such as Bill Ayers and Bernadine Dohrn who were revolutionary radicals, people said it didn’t matter.

    When his voting record in the Illinois senate and in the U.S. Senate came into question, people said it didn’t matter.

    When he refused to wear an American flag lapel pin, and did so only after a public outcry, people said it didn’t matter.

    When people started treating him as a Messiah and children in schools were taught to sing his praises, people said it didn’t matter.

    When he stood with his hands over his groin area for the playing of the National Anthem and Pledge of Allegiance,people said it didn’t matter.

    When he surrounded himself in the White house with advisors who were pro-gun control, pro-abortion, pro-homosexual marriage and wanting to curtail freedom of speech to silence the opposition, people said it didn’t matter.

    When he aired his views on abortion, homosexuality and a host of other issues, people said it didn’t matter.

    When he said he favors sex education in Kindergarten, including homosexual indoctrination, people said it didn’t matter.

    When his personal background was either scrubbed or hidden and nothing could be found about him, people said it didn’t matter.

    When the place of his birth was called into question, and he refused to produce a birth certificate, people said it didn’t matter.

    When he had an association in Chicago with Tony Rezco-a man of questionable character and who is now in prison and had helped Obama to a sweet deal on the purchase of his home, people said it didn’t matter.

    When it became known that George Soros, a multi-billionaireMarxist, spent a ton of money to get him elected, people said it didn’t matter.

    When he started appointing White House Czars that were radicals, revolutionaries, and even avowed Marxist/Communist, people said it didn’t matter.

    When he stood before the Nation and told us that his intentions were to “fundamentally transform this Nation” into something else, people said it didn’t matter.

    When it became known that he had trained ACORN workers in Chicago and served as an attorney for ACORN, people said it didn’t matter.

    When he appointed cabinet members and several advisors who were tax cheats and socialists, people said it didn’t matter.

    When he appointed a Science Czar, John Holdren, who believes in forced abortions, mass sterilizations and seizing babies from teen mothers, people said it didn’t matter.

    When he appointed Cass Sunstein as Regulatory Czar who believes in “Explicit Consent,” harvesting human organs without family consent, and allowing animals to be represented in court, while banning all hunting, people said it didn’t matter.

    When he appointed Kevin Jennings, a homosexual, and organizer of a group called gay, lesbian, straight, education networkas Safe School Czar and it became known that he had a history of bad advice to teenagers, people said it didn’t matter.

    When he appointed Mark Lloyd, as Diversity Czar, who believes in curtailing free speech; taking from one and giving to another to spread the wealth; who supports Hugo Chavez,people said it didn’t matter.

    When Valerie Jarrett was selected as Obama’s Senior White House Advisor and she is an avowed Socialist, people said it didn’t matter.

    When Anita Dunn, White House Communications Director said Mao Tse Tung was her favorite philosopher-and the person she turned to most for inspiration, people said it didn’t matter.

    When he appointed Carol Browner as Global Warming Czar, and her being a well known Socialist working on Cap and Trade as the nations largest tax, people said it didn’t matter.

    When he appointed Van Jones, an ex-con and avowed Communist as Green Energy Czar, who since had to resign when this was made known, people said it didn’t matter.

    When Tom Daschle, Obama’s pick for health and human services secretary could not be confirmed, because he was a tax cheat, people said it didn’t matter.

    When as President of the United States , he bowed to the King of Saudi Arabia , people said it didn’t matter.

    When he traveled around the world criticizing America and never once talking of her greatness, people said it didn’t matter.

    When his actions concerning the Middle-East seemed to support the Palestinians over Israel , our long time ally,people said it didn’t matter.

    When he took American tax dollars to resettle thousands ofPalestinians from Gaza to the United States , people said it didn’t matter.

    When he upset the Europeans by removing plans for a missile defense system against the Russians, people said it didn’t matter.

    When he played politics in Afghanistan by not sending troops early-on when the Field Commanders said they were necessary to win, people said it didn’t matter.

    When he started spending us into a debt that was so big we could not pay it off, people said it didn’t matter.

    When he took a huge spending bill under the guise ofstimulus and used it to pay off organizations, unions, and individuals that got him elected, people said it didn’t matter.

    When he took over insurance companies, car companies, banks, etc., people said it didn’t matter.

    When he took away student loans from the banks and put it through the government, people said it didn’t matter.

    When he designed plans to take over the health care system and put it under
    government control, people said it didn’t matter.

    When he claimed he was a Christian during the election and tapes were later made public that showed Obama speaking to a Muslim group and ‘stating’ that he was raised a Muslim; was educated as a Muslim; and that he is still a Muslim, people said it didn’t matter.

    When he set into motion a plan to take over the control of all energy in the United States through Cap and Trade, people said it didn’t matter.

    When he finally completed his transformation of America into a Socialist State , people finally woke up, but it was too late.

    Add these up one by one and you get a phenomenal score that points to the fact that Barrack Hussein Obama is determined to turn America into a Marxist-Socialist society. All of the items in the preceding paragraphs have been put into place. All can be documented very easily. Before you disavow this do an internet search. The last paragraph alone is not yet cast in stone. You and I will write that paragraph. Will it read as above or will it be a more happy ending for most of America ?

    If you are an Obama Supporter don’t be angry with me because I think Barrack Hussein Obama is a socialist. Far too many facts support he is indeed a Socialist. If you seek the truth you will be richer for it.

    Don’t just belittle the opposition. Search for the truth. Democrats, Republicans, Independents, Constitutionalists, Libertarians all need to pull together or watch the demise of a free democratic society. Pray for Americans to seek the truth and take action for it will keep us FREE.

    Our biggest enemy is not China , Russia , North Korea , and Iran ……. our biggest enemy is a contingent of politicians in Washington DC ..

    The government will not help, so we need to do it ourselves.

    • Jay

      That was certainly an avalanche of mind-sobering reality, chuckb. And all the facts you presented, are irrefutable! As Mr. Chip Wood asked, “Fight Or Flight: Which Do You Choose? Here’s another irrefutable fact, We Americans do not have a history of running, but a history of standing our ground, and fighting! We must always remind ourselves of our history and the example set forth by our founding fathers, if they did it, there is no reason why we can’t do the same!!! I say we fight!

    • JeffH

      chuckb, two thumbs up my man. Way to go! :)

  • Liztalk

    I think all you right-wing extremist wackos SHOULD leave the United States. The rest of us would be better off without you! Your agendas will destroy the country – are destroying the country. Bring your guns with you, and I’ll keep my guns (yes my family owns some) just in case you try to force your dangerous agendas on me.

    • Kate8

      Good grief.

    • http://donthaveone Beberoni

      Seriously Liztalk, if it wasnt for these “rightwing wacko’s” you refer to, you would already be speaking Aramaic or whatever they speak over there, as your left wing liberals have determined long ago to hand the terrorist nations the keys to this country. The right wing is all that is keeping you alive. In fact Liz, if your left wing liberals have things their way, you would be allowed to talk on forums like this, because they wont allow it. Think about that for a minute please. It wouldnt just silence me, it would silence you also.

      • Liztalk

        Aramaic is the language that Jesus spoke. I assume you are not saying that Jesus was a terrorist. If so, God help you. Here is a link to a song of The Lord’s Prayer in Aramaic: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MAEIrp4MFBE

        As to my “left wing liberals have determined long ago to hand the terrorist nations the keys to this country,” I want to remind you that many of those serving in the military consider themselves ‘liberal’ or part of the Democratic Party. My progressive husband served honorably for 22 years and recently retired. Those are the folks we owe our freedom to, not political extremists. Your incorrect statement is very hateful, and suggests that lefties are terrorists or terrorist-collaborators. It seems to me that right-wing terrorists have killed a lot more citizens in this country over the years (Oklahoma City, Tucson, Philadelphia) than left-wing liberals have.

        I think Jesus was a Aramaic speaking, tolerant, peace-loving leftie!

  • chuckb

    kate8, another inmate has escaped.

  • http://donthaveone Beberoni

    As it was in the beginning of this country, the thing that made us great and made us free, was United We Stand. Go ahead run like a coward. Ill stay and fight.

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