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FAIR Exposes Tactics Of Anti-immigration Reform Advocates

October 12, 2009 by  

FAIR exposes tactics of anti-immigration reform advocates The Federation for American Immigration Reform (FAIR) has released a report detailing what it calls "the unscrupulous methods" used by the Southern Poverty Law Center (SPLC) to discredit organizations advocating enforcement of U.S. immigration laws.

The report, entitled Guide to Understanding the Tactics of the Southern Poverty Law Center in the Immigration Debate, also examines the SPLC’s financial motives that it says fuel its increasing attacks.

"The SPLC is an opportunistic outfit, seeking to raise money by smearing mainstream groups and moderate Americans who simply want order restored to our nation’s dysfunctional immigration system," says Dan Stein, president of FAIR.

He also adds that SPLC has "no record of offering constructive solutions to our immigration problems."

FAIR was founded in 1979 and is the country’s largest immigration reform group. Its goal is to promote the idea that immigration reform must enhance national security, improve the economy, protect jobs, preserve the environment, and establish a rule of law that is enforced.

The organization says it hopes the new publication will encourage journalists, legislators, students and others researchers of immigration issues to judge independently, and stated that it "proudly stands by its 30-year record of advocating for reforms to our immigration policy that are supported by the majority of the American people."
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  • Ivan

    FAIR is a hate group, the modern-day KKK, made up of bunch of angry white males, blaming their failures in life on “the other”. “The other” in past times has been the Irish, jew, black,italian, now it’s the Latino immigrant.
    Too bad Billy Bob doesn’t know yet that racism alywas loses in America and that a comprehensive immigration reform is a matter of when, not if. And it is the just and humane thing to do. History will judge us for our brutal treatment of immigrants!!!

    • Dora

      You are NUTS – a HATE group my hind leg. They are just trying to help GET America BACK. The ILLEGAL aliens over here don’t want to become an American. They have broken the LAW in the first place for ever crossing that border ILLEGALLY! Get your head out of that tin bucket.

    • s c

      Ivan, if you want to see a racist, look in a mirror. America is supposed to a nation of laws. According to the way you think, laws are meant to be broken. Worse than that, you think laws are meant to be broken if it’s pc and keeps your role models in power.
      Ivan, you missed the boat by about 230 years. You should have lived during the Revolutionary War, when your flawed beliefs would have been tested, and you would have found yourself siding with the British.
      You have much to learn, and very little time to learn it. You are a willing part of America’s many problems. Until you understand the difference between a problem and a solution, you will NEVER be a willing part of the SOLUTION.

      • Average Joe

        s c says:

        Worse than that, you think laws are meant to be broken if it’s pc and keeps your role models in power.

        “Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.”

        just a little humor for the right thinkers…..

        • ccg

          A G, you said it. Politically Correct is a way of controlling our speech and in turn our thoughts. Treating us like mindless robots to all think and say the same thing. We are producing that in our schools today unfortunately.

        • april

          Answer to average Joe. PC is a doctrine hatched in the Soviet Union, more than likely the KGB. The goal of this think tank is to get people to think in groups rather than individuals. Large groups are easier targets for brainwashing, questioning their ideals, or out rite control….. Wow that sounds like our Gov’t.

          • Average Joe

            april,
            Every year at Texas A&M, one of the courses runs a definition contest for grade. This years phrase was “Politically Correct” and that was the winning definition. It was added here strictly for the humor and logic of the statement.
            BTW, many of the things that you are trying to inform me about….I already know about…I do a lot of research… case law, government and U.S history are my primary points of interest, so I come in contact with a lot of information along the way.Many of the issues we agree on…I am sure there are others that we don’t. It is only a matter of disagreements on points …not on the issues as a whole.

          • April

            LOL!! Average Joe, there are two of us, April and april. Altho we seem to have very similar views we have never met each other.
            Hi april, this is the other April; it is a privalege to meet you.

          • Average Joe

            april,
            Could be worse…we could have Larry, Daryl and Darrell or
            Dewey, Fleesum and Howe, Attorney’s at Law….lol

    • Barney

      Ivan, there is an old adage that I believe applies here.

      “When the law is on your side, argue the law. When the facts are on your side, argue the facts. When neither are on your side, distract the opponent by calling names.”

      Well I see you did not argue either the law or the facts, it appears we know where your arguments stand.

      • DaveH

        Good post Barney.

    • Robin from Indiana

      Ivan says: “History will judge us for our brutal treatment of immigrants!!!”

      Brutal treatment? What brutal treatment are you referring to? And is this observation of yours meaning legal immigrants, or illegal immigrants?

      I think the United States should just incorporate Mexico into our nation as the 51st state. They supply much of our oil and we have so many of the Mexican citizens in the United States, feeding them, teaching them English, providing health care, and treating them better than those who have been born here, it would only make sense. Then we should pass the fair tax, which we should do anyway, and we can all sit around and sign ‘Kumbaya’!

      • ccg

        If they would even bother to learn English.
        They come from all of these other countries not trying to assimilate into our country and become Americans.
        Since the come here ILLEGALLY, they don’t bother to find out what the United States is really all about. Instead, they bring their ways which is exactly what they are running from in their own country and force them onto us here in our country.
        We welcome legal immigrants all of the time, it’s the ILLEGALS that come in and steal, not only from individuals, but from our government as well.

        • keith

          damn skippy!

      • DaveH

        I’ve thought of that many times myself, Robin. But the problem is that we would be incorporating about 110 million new citizens that are thoroughly accustomed to an over-burdensome government rife with corruption. We can’t even educate our own Liberals on the concepts of Limited Government. How are we going to teach 110 million more?

      • American Citizen

        Maybe Ivan is an illegal immigrant. He must not have gotten the perks.

      • Tom Foolery

        STOP the FairTax SCHEME
        The FairTax SCHEME is a Plan to eliminate the IRS and substitute a 23-34% consumption tax on all new sales. The problem is that nearly all savings except some IRAs has already been taxed by the income tax system when earned and this additional point of sale consumption tax would tax these savings a second time at the 23-34% tax rate. That would devastate the savings of nearly all retirees. This is admitted by boortz on page 169 of the book explaining the FairTax SCHEME. boortz/Simpson (as in Homer Simpson) offers no solution to this double taxation. but does basically say to the retiree spending his pretaxed savings “Tough $hit, you will just have to suffer for the benefit of the others.”

        STOP the FairTax SCHEME

        ‹(•¿•)›

    • JeffH

      May 16, 2006
      The US Border Patrol union Local 2544 in Tucson, Ariz., says the total number of illegal immigrants in the US today is between 12 million and 15 million.

      here is a link to a Washington Post article written by By Mary Fitzgerald with cost estimates for illegal aliens.
      Washington Post Staff Writer
      Thursday, August 26, 2004; Page A21
      http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A33783-2004Aug25.html

      The Illegal-Alien Crime Wave written by Heather Mac Donald Winter 2004
      http://www.city-journal.org/html/14_1_the_illegal_alien.html

      Some of the most violent criminals at large today are illegal aliens. Yet in cities where the crime these aliens commit is highest, the police cannot use the most obvious tool to apprehend them: their immigration status. In Los Angeles, for example, dozens of members of a ruthless Salvadoran prison gang have sneaked back into town after having been deported for such crimes as murder, assault with a deadly weapon, and drug trafficking. Police officers know who they are and know that their mere presence in the country is a felony. Yet should a cop arrest an illegal gangbanger for felonious reentry, it is he who will be treated as a criminal, for violating the LAPD’s rule against enforcing immigration law.

      This is a problem that every American should be concerned about.

      • Benny

        The obvious problem is the bleeding heart of our politicians which is not really a bleeding heart, they want to cover their agebda under this guise. Those like Pelosi and her cronies who are really not in the fight to better the country. they’re in the fight to get the Hispanic vote. That can be the only reason Pelosi condemned law enforcement officers who raided places they knew were harboring illegal aliens. She acted like the law enforcement had done the wrong when the illegal aliens are here ILLEGALLY. They are breaking the very laws Congress has enacted to help certail those who come here illegally. Look at the illegal ailiens incalifornia and look at the percentage of those illegal aliens who are involved in gang activities, ant to mention just out and out outlaws. But there is some light at the end of the tunnel, many of those supporting amnesty to illegals will be removed from office next election if we will demand and enforce legal and above board elections in the problem areas. We need alot of things in this country but we certainly don’t need people coming across our borders illegally. They are not here to do the right thing and become productive citizens. They are coming here illegally because they have no respect for the law to begin with and they flood our Emergency Rooms and schools and every free government institution they can lie their way into to get a handout at the taxpayers expense. I don’t know what the answer is but I am not apposed to armed border towers with “SHOOT TO KILL” orders. They are vermin and the only way to stop them is to get the politicians who support amnesty and want to protect those who break the law by coming across our borders illegally. They are ciriminals, it is high time they were treated like criminals. Lock them up, put them on chain gangs to repair roads, maintain Government property, and any laborous job the states must pay for and pay them nothing. When their time is served for breaking our laws, then deport them. If they come back, do the same thing again. We will soon see a decrease in illegals coming across our borders and we will have saved taxpayers a tremendous amount of money using them for labor. They come here for the “FREE RIDE”. Take that away and I think you will see a great decrease in Illegals coming here. Stop awarding them for breaking our laws and we will not have such a tremendous problem with them coming here illegally. I’m not against anyone trying to better their position in life by coming here but they must do it legally and be punished when they are caught doing it any other way.

        • ccg

          I agree. I don’t think anyone wants to shoot them, just send them back home. If they want to come legally fine.
          Now the ones who are drug runners have weapons I think the Border Patrol should have the right to defend themselves.
          The Democrats want that vote and the control at the cost of the citizens of this country. I like your idea about locking them up and putting them in chain gangs. It won’t happen, but I like it.
          Sadly their government and even ours tells them how to come over, what their rights are when they get here, and what they can apply for as well as how to apply for it.
          Unless we make our voices heard loud and strong, our Reps. won’t do anything about it.

          • MadArky

            The problem is a Congress that does not follow the Constitution they swore to uphopld. Each state should call for the impeachment of ANY so-called representative that does not follow that document. In essence they are worse that the illegals we do not want or need in this great land. Our forefathers died fighting for the liberty we have enjoyed (up until lately) and the taxation without representation we are seeing from the Dumbocrats. Make no mistake about it they are NOT representing their constituents, only the special interests and their own greed.

          • American Citizen

            What the Democrats don’t understand that when they are no longer allowed to stay in Congress, they will be one of “us”. Vote them out.

        • C Lee

          Benny I was going to say something here untill I read your statement. Now all I can say Is I have found someone on here who says what I feel. I had a thriving dump trucking buisness and home builder contracting buisness in southwest florida untill the illegalls from cuba as well as mexico put me out of buisness. And this all happened when building was going strong well before the crash. Today I live on a small farm in kentucky because my home where I grew up was taken over by Illegalls. If any one of you reading this does not believe it could happen to you I truly and honestly feel so sorry for you.

          • April

            I believe you. I hear the same types of accounts. It is widespread too. I hear accounts from Florida, Texas, New Mexico, California, and they are making their way up into non-border states now. This has become one of our largest part of our debt. If we took care of this, a big chunk of health care issues would be resolved.

          • ccg

            My parents used to live in a Border town. They also had a business. It was pathetic. Next door to their business was a doorway to an upstairs office. The illegals would go to the bathroom in that doorway, have sex in that doorway, and then break into the businesses along the street and this was on Main Street, right in the heart of downtown.
            Oh yes, the office next door was full of attorneys that helped the illegals get everything out of the government that they could.
            I have even had my SS# used by one of them. I was lucky and got it taken care of before it got out of control.
            So yes, this is a very real problem.

        • Tom Foolery

          I would like to see a fenced tent city prison like Joe Arpaio has in Phoenix, built in San Diego. inside the retaining compound there could be an immigration court that could handle all deportation measures. While waiting for their hearing to come up (backlog of six months) the illegal should be given the option of working on a fence between the US an Mexico or just waiting for their hearing.

          The menu in the compound should be the normal Mexican fare: tortillas, rice and beans. As an incentive for working on the fence the illegal should be given meat (either Pork or chicken) to supplement their meals. No work . . . food but No meat.

          After the hearing the illegal should be freed on the Mexican side of the border. As work on the fence progresses the compound is moved with the “end of fence” until the whole shebang reaches the Gulf of Mexico.

          Illegals gone, Fence built, end of problem unless politicians get involved

      • april

        Exactly, it seems like our Gov’t has the agenda of stacking the deck, getting all the illegally votes, who don’t have to show ID, thanx to Nancy Pelosi. If for no other reason to keep these Liberals in full control with the power to shred our Constitution. That’s what they learn in Law School. Some of this countrys most dangerous politicians, and in control of the Fed Resv. All came from the Law School “Harvard”… Maybe that’s where they learn how to destroy our Country.. Of course when you have Rev. J. Wright in the white house what do you expect, oh I digress he didn’t listen…….

    • http://deleted John

      The SPLC is nothing but a bunch of hacks who searched deparately for a cause to latch onto once the KKK went out of business. Just as the Communists grabbed onto the “environmental movement”, to cause present day problems,,, the America haters at the SPLC attached themselves to the plight of “poor foreigners” who come North to illegally live off more productive people.

    • Wayne Keel – V Vet

      Dark Majesty, a book by Tex Marrs predicted this whole mess we are in back in 1991. Our communist “friends” in DC are tearing down every part of the structure our nation was founded on. They’ve taken GOD out of the schools, government, and Christmas. Won’t be long until they ban the bible.
      The libs are out to break our economy so we have no choice but to let the gov run our lives. Open borders, free health care, housing, food, education, you name it, it’s being given to people who have no right to it. They never contributed anything except debt to this country. Illegals never fought for freedom, spilled their blood for America, or paid a share of the tax burden. They are taught that we took their land and it’s ok to steal something if they can get by with it. Even the people in our government have sold the American people out for self gain and think they’ll get by with it. They have until now.
      The other thing they must destroy is our patriotism to our country and they have gone about removing from our textbooks the sacrifices of our forefathers and what this country was founded upon. Their new books will leave out anything which would make our children proud to be Americans. The pledge of allegiance is gone and the flag itself is in danger of being mocked by putting Obama’s mug in place of the stars. Our constitution is being rewritten as I share my views. When are the real American people going to band together and march on DC and end this overthrow of our way of life? I don’t know about the rest of you, but I’m ready! The longer we wait, the harder it will be to take it back. Waiting until elections next year will be TOO LATE!! GOD, FAMILY, and COUNTRY!!!!

      • April

        WOW! I have not read that book- but so far it sounds like you hit the nail right on the head. You make the same point my hubby and I were discussing earlier today, that if we wait ’til next year’s elections to take this country back, things will be put into place to set the next administration up for failure.

      • eyeswideopen

        Wayne, you are proposing a march on washington to take back the government? What exactly are you going to do? Is this going to be a peaceful march or are you inciting a civil war? Just asking, want to make sure I totally understand you.

        • ccg

          Marching on Washington doesn’t mean civil war. There is the Black’s Million Man March, we had the Tea Parties, all of which were non violent.
          People demonstrate all of the time to get their points across and to let their views be known.

        • DaveH

          Eyes, I have to agree with you on this one. It does sound like Wayne is not talking of a peaceful march, but he also doesn’t overtly advocate violence. Only Wayne knows the answer to that question.

          • DaveH

            Wayne, I understand your frustration. When the politicians tear down the value of our dollar with their excessive spending they are covertly stealing the citizens’ hard earned cash savings.
            The first thing we need to do is educate ourselves, our families, and our friends to the reality of Big Government.
            I think we are taking a step in the right direction on this website. Thank You Bob Livingston! And please, let’s respect Bob’s comment policy.
            It would be a lot easier to take the political route to achieve these goals than to take the route of violence (if that is what you were implying). Most revolutions just end up replacing one dictator with another dictator.
            We were lucky in this country that we had leaders with principles amongst our forefathers who set up a Constitution designed to prevent an out of control government. But the politicians aren’t usually going to follow the rules willingly as it is to their advantage to grow their power. So, it is up to the citizens to make the effort to see that these rules are followed by the politicians.
            Please, let’s not throw away the advantage (through the Constitution) that our forefathers bestowed on us. We need to work hard to reverse this Big Government trend and start moving back to Limited Government and Individual Responsibility.

      • Thurman Marcum

        wayne keel,

        The only way you get rid of people you doin’t like,is the ballot box.Violence is not the answer.That is the way of Hitler and Stalin.We got a great country to bring our children up in.That is our right to agree or
        disagree.

    • Carol Knapp

      To Ivan:

      Don’t you know that “Billy Bob” is now THE target for the racists in our midst?

      Since when does the desire to enforce the law EQUALLY constitute “racism”? Why do “some” get to break federal law (immigration law)while the rest of us must comply?

      Ivan, since you are such a prejudiced person, arguing from your
      emotions WITHOUT THE FACTS, I suggest that YOU pay the $15 billion dollar cost to California taxpayers ABOVE what illegal aliens pay into the system!

      Illegal immigration is: 1)lowering wages for all workers, thus benefitting Walmart and Home Depot, while 2) bleeding middle class Americans by the illegals’ social services tab.

      As most racists do, you view EVERYTHING through your distorted lens of “victimhood”…GROW UP!
      Carol

    • Joe H.

      Ivan,
      You need to look a little closer at the members of fair. I’m one who would like to join. I’m a vet, born here, have friends from just about every faction of the world you could name, including Vietnamese whom I fought. I welcome ANY immigrant to this country, LEGAL that is! If the first thing a person is going to do is break our LAWS then we don’t need them to come. We are a nation of laws, not feelings. I remember working as a kid right along side the migrant workers who were at that time legal. They used to rant about the illegals who came here even then (64-65)because they got everything they did and they came here legally. This is their own people speaking. Today with the gangs, the robberies, the cost and everything else connected with the illegals I hate to think what they would say now!!!

    • april

      You (WORDS REMOVED FOR OFFENSIVE CONTENT). All those groups you listed, did the rite thing. They came here went thru the system to become legal citizens. We all benefit from that system. So say you have a nice house, but you can’t lock the door. You come and maybe theres 2-3 strangers in the house. Next week the work gets out, now theres 100 strangers in your house. Just how far will you let this go on till your in their way and they throw you out of you own home. Without border enforcement it’s just a matter of time till we lose our country. We are being taken over by an unarmed army of criminal border jumping Illegally Immigrants, that fill up our schools, hospitals, jails and prisons. So how long can we as a country afford this garbage……

    • http://none chiron pyrope

      When the laws of a society are not enforced by government, a state of anarchy exists. In the case of illegal immigrants, our government has not arrested and deported those known to be here. Therefore, a state of anarchy exists. Anarchy is dangerous–the terrorists who attacked our country on 11 September 2001 were here illegally. Most recently, a young man in Dallas, Texas purchased what he thought was a car bomb and attempted to blow up a building. You guessed it: he was in this country illegally. To add to the misery; we now have a “reported” unemployment rate of 9.8% (more realistically, it’s about 14.5%). How many jobs are illegal aliens taking from taxpaying Americans? No matter how you cut it; illegal aliens are CRIMINALS! They harm our country and our citizens.

    • Robert

      Ivan, you’re absolutley right. Our elected democrats refer to (sic) illegal immigrants as “momentarily displaced humans”. That that makes me feel a whole lot better. Fences, we don’t need no stinking fences. Just need a whole bunch of normal american hunters with gun scopes that are dead shots at 1,000 yards and a few “momentarily displaced humans” for target practice. Now don’t you feel better that I agree with your comment and have a sensible solution to illegal immigration?

      • American Citizen

        The word now is, “Illegal aliens are undocumented Democrats.”

        • DaveH

          So true.

    • American Citizen

      Ivan, what part of “illegal” don’t you understand?

    • Donna Hartley

      Historically any nation that has lost control of it’s borders has always fallen.If you had half of a decent education (and not in a union run public school) you might just know that.Your frame of reference is pathetic.

  • Jo

    Ivan, FAIR is not racist. Follow the laws of immigration and there is no problem. Break the law and be forced to leave. What don’t you understand?

  • Gary Benteman

    I think you are totally off base calling FAIR a hate group. If there is a hate group involved here is the SPLC. They have a long history of opposing gun and private property rights, and they have long ben deeply in bed with Sarah Brady’s Handgun Confiscation group. The SPLC is a big government bunch of nanny state liberals whose propaganda on most issues is simply not to be believed. I dispise the SPLC and every law abiding christen american should also.

  • Dora

    Ivan, something else I want to say. Our borders have been open to INVASION for a LONG time and we are such FOOLS we PAY them to come over here and take back the states we won in the Mexican/American war like they said they would do by giving them FREE medical, welfare, food stamps, FREE schooling and reduced government housing. We have been PURE IDIOTS.

    • Darlene

      I couldn’t have said it better. I live just 40 miles north of the border. Everything here is geared toward the illegals–free schools, free day care, free preschool, free everything!!! If only our government would provide these things for our citizens, our children would have a future.

    • shannon

      no Dora, the people are not idiots. the problem is the people have elected idiots. time to recall them or unite to have them arrested and held for treason.

      • ccg

        AMEN, AMEN, AMEN!!!!!

      • Average Joe

        shannon,

        The people are not idiots. the problem is the people have elected idiots.

        As much as I hate to ask this, does that not in fact tell us that we are idiots?….we elected them….maybe we all need to wake up from our slumber and do more background checks on these idiots….so that we don’t elect them in the future…..Just a thought

        • april

          Answer to average Joe. Maybe we didn’t elect them. Groups like Acron and Apollo, under the Tides Foundation, have been stuffing, rigging, whatever you want to call it, our elections for near 20yrs. With unlimited money comming from the likes of the rat (WORD REMOVED FOR OFFENSIVE CONTENT) George Soros, who got kicked out of Europe for trying to break them, came here to do the same thing. Remember this man lied to the Nazis telling them he was Catholic not a Jew, while at the time turning in his friends, family and neighbors. To get the Nazi reward, for him it was like now, all about money. In a just world that man should be hung for treason, or like Thomas Jefferson did shot on the white house lawn. Hard to understand, I guess he wants to be the (WORDS REMOVED FOR OFFENSIVE CONTENT) on the planet, at any cost. Look it up don’t take my word for this……

    • Earlw

      Not entirely correct. I seem to remember us BUYING that territory from Benito Juarez, the leader at that time. Some Mexicans may think that’s not valid, but it is what it is. Their PLAN is to BREED us out of existence over time…Do a little research. check out Movemiento estudiantil de aztlan, La Raza, and various Mexican pressure groups. That is their STATED PLAN. Don’t believe me? Go to their website. Racist, indeed! They are just to lazy or afraid to revolt in their own country, because we welcome them with open borders (the bleeding heart liberals, that is).

      • Joe H.

        EarlW.’
        Look a little farther back. Who did they “buy” it from? They didn’t, they stole it from the Incas, the indios and the Apache and killed them in the process! So they have no room to gripe!!!

  • Liberty

    The United States allows MORE immigration than any other country in the world. FAIR is not against immigration, it’s against ILLEGAL immigration. I don’t see a problem here. Seems like trying to get people in that are willing to follow our laws and immigrate legally and trying to keep people that have NO respect for our laws out, would be a good thing. We already have enough homegrown ones that have no respect for our laws or constitution, and unfortunately, too many of THEM are in political office.

    • Robin from Indiana

      Liberty…. Your post is on the mark! So many of our leaders are corrupt and taking advantage of their elected power. And you are right about our jails being full of disrespectful people who break laws because they thought they could. Crossing into the United States illegally is breaking a law! We have laws in place to do it legally. We need to enforce them!

  • Average Joe

    Ideas for a Constitutional Country

    1. Corporate America
    All corporate executives should be held personally responsible for all actions taken by the corporation that they oversee, which proves to be detrimental to their customers,shareholders or workers.If the corporate executives want the high pay, then it is high time they take responsibility for their actions. If they are held accountable for thier company’s actions, then they might tend to have more oversight of the corporate dealings.

    Executive pay needs to be based solely on performance not on contracts ie: Based on a percentage of profits earned by the corporation during tenure and paid in monthly increments based on the previous months profits (no profit,no paycheck… Lose money for three months during any year, lose job).Sound and cautious investing builds a sound corporation.Taking high risks with other peoples money tends to lead to disaster, but only for the other people as the corporate executives take no responsibility for the losses….this needs to change. If there are consequences for their actions, they will become much more prudent in their dealings….and a lot more honest.

    2.Monetary System
    First, a repeal of the Federal Reserve Banking Cartel with a return to the gold and silver standard as laid out by the founding document known as The Constitution for the United States of America. Instead of printing a endless supply of paper currency backed by nothing except a promise to pay MONEY….eventually (after all they say right on the top “Federal Reserve Note” look up the definition of note sometime).The first dollars minted in the U.S. were issued by the federal government in Philadelphia in 1794, following passage of the Coinage Act of 1792. The act provided for two standards of value: a silver dollar containing 371.25 gr of pure silver and a gold dollar containing 24.75 gr of pure gold. The gold dollar, a very small coin, was minted only from 1849 to 1889. Over the years revisions in the coinage law have changed the silver and gold content in the dollar and it never had to happen.
    Next, a restructuring of pay scales for all employees.
    Blue collar jobs
    . Unskilled labor. Instead of being paid using DOLLARS as a method of payment for wages, I suggest hourly UNITS as wages. For every hour worked 1/2 Unit of pay is earned. Each unit is worth 1 once of silver (so, for a typical 40 hour week, a employee would earn 20 units of pay or 20 oz. of silver).
    Skilled labor.(carpenter, plumbers,electricians,etc.)
    For each hour worked the employee earns 3/4 units per hour each being worth 3/4 oz. of silver or 30 oz. per week, based on a 40 hour work week.

    Grey collar jobs

    These are jobs that require at least 2 years of college and include jobs such as technicians, nurses, computer programmers etc.

    For every hour worked, 1 unit is paid. Each unit equal to 1 ounce of silver, or 40 ounces based on a 40 hour work week.

    Lower and middle Management

    For every hour worked, !.25 to 1.75 unit is paid. Each unit equal to 1.25 to 1,75 ounces of silver or 50 to 70 ounces based on a 40 hour work week.

    Upper management has been discussed.
    Based Soley on a percentage of profits.

    Immigration

    I say let anyone into to this country that wants in, With these stipulations:
    You do not have a criminal conviction in any other country’
    You provide two medical reports done at not more than 6 month intervals and within a year before the time of application for entry into the U.S.showing that you are disease free (HIV, Hep, etc.)
    You come here on a five year permit.During your Permitted time you will:
    Register for a Social Security Card and have your card before you may work here.
    During the time your permit is valid, you will submit to double the normal rate for SSI payments
    Any children born to you while you are still on a valid permit will not automatically become a citizen of this nation. They have the same status as their parents (temporary, until all requirements of the parents is met for citizenship).
    You will not be permitted welfare. It is not a option don’t ask.

    During the time your permit is valid, you will : Learn to speak English, Use it in everyday life. You must become fluent. If you come here, do not expect us to learn your language in order to communicate. English is spoken here!
    While I understand the diversity of cultures in this country The nation was founded by the British Colonists as such, the official language is English.If you want to keep your cultural language alive, that is fine, but you left your country and now you are here, so when in public, Speak English..
    lets all have at least one thing in common….One Language…English!
    You will learn the history and Constitution not only of the nation, but also of the state where you live.
    You will submit to a test to validate that you know these things and you will be sworn in by your oath as a citizen.
    Failure to attain Citizenship within the five year permit time, revokes the permit and you return to your country of origin, not sad tales, no excuses. Your stay here is over and you may not apply again for five years.
    Anyone caught in the country without the valid permit to be here will be jailed for a period of one year first offense 5 years for any subsequent offense. Also, while incarcerated inmates will have no recreational equipment,TV’s etc….eats and sleeps nothing more. While incarcerated, all inmates will work 10 hour days 6 days a week in a variety of jobs, from gardening, raising pigs and cattle as well as making license plates. This way the citizens don’t have to support them.Prisons are for punishment, why should we support you? Don’t complain if you end up there. The gardens ,cattle , pigs ect. will be used to both feed you and to clothe you (any excess will be sold to the local community at a fair market value, which will in turn clothe you).Once in one of our prisons, any violations of law will be dealt with according to the crime(but, I see a lot of people in good old fashioned stocks and pillory, as well as the good old fashion public floggings).

    Federal Lands,

    All federal lands (national parks etc). will immediately be turned over to the Indian tribes that originally occupied the land( it was theirs to begin with and our Federal Government took it from them without just compensation), as such we as a people should give it back.

    Federal Government

    No private funding for any political race….NO EXECEPTION! Each candidate will receive equal donated Air Time, and Print space, to be provided by the networks and news syndicates throughout the nation. They want to inform us…then they need to put their money where there mouth is…put up or shut up! By giving all candidates the same amount of free time we the people will get a better look at all candidates.
    Any candidate that has held public office, past present or future that has violated his or her Oath of Office to uphold the Constitution, shall not be considered a viable candidate for any public office and shall be removed from the ballot immediately.We know what you have done by your previous votes etc.(if you have voted to pass any statute, ordinance,law, legislation etc. that is not in compliance with the Constitution, we will know).

    Debates:

    All candidates will be included in all debates, no exceptions. Each debate should be held by a different network, no exceptions. Networks and syndicates will endorse…no candidate….no exceptions. Arguing and name calling during debates is childish and we the people will have none of it! If you cannot win a debate using your own intelligence do not resort to belittling you fellow debaters,you will be asked to leave the debate.All questions will be submitted by the local audience and placed in a box to be pulled out randomly for each candidate to address.

    Voting:

    All voting shall be done on paper ballots and placed in a sealed box, in full public view at all times, NO Exceptions. At the close of each local polling place, the Ballots will be removed from the box and counted in full public view, NO Exceptions.Counting shall be done a total of three times ( one by a democrat, one by a Republican and one by a Independent) to insure there is no fraud.
    Everyone over 18 years of age has the Right to vote, No Exceptions ( we will have no more of these so called Illegal voter lists since everyone has a right to representation). I can find no reason for taking anyone’s rights away to representation through voting. If someone went to prison for a crime and completed their sentence, has in my opinion “paid his or her debt to society” and shall have all rights restored after completing the sentence, No Exceptions

    Military:

    I say we bring home 90% of our servicemen and women immediately.
    The 10% left behind will only be left behind to take care of our properties (foreign bases etc.) until they can be bought by the countries in which they reside (to be paid for in gold and silver only….not fiat currency) and shall be rotated from those posts every 6 mos. Any act of aggression against any of these “now peaceful” facilities will be considered a act of war and will be addressed as such. (we want you to have the facilities that are on your soil, pay for them and we will leave…peacefully).
    Once the servicemen and women are on U.S. soil, they will return to the state where thy enlisted and become part of the “State Militia”" as outlined in the second amendment of the constitution.
    Everyone between 16-55 will be required to participate for at least one week every six months (this can be accomplished by dividing the poulation of each state into 26 units, each unit serving for two weeks out of the year).
    By each state having it’s own Militia, each state can better enforce immigration of it’s borders as well as defending against outside interference from foreign nationals as well as upholding their 10th amendment rights against the usurpation of power from Washington,D.C
    All of our military hardware is to be returned to the U.S. and divided equally amongst the states respectfully.
    Instead of one national military, there will now be 50 state run Militias working together..
    In the unfortunate event of a war breaking out, all states will coordinate their efforts for the common good of the nation.

    • shannon

      one thing… “Everyone over 18 years of age has the Right to vote, No Exceptions ( we will have no more of these so called Illegal voter lists since everyone has a right to representation). I can find no reason for taking anyone’s rights away to representation through voting. ” make that fully legal united state citizens, no illegals of children of illegals called anchor babies….. each state to hav eeach voter to register and be issues a tamper proof voter id card..

      • Average Joe

        shannon ,
        These are just some ideas that I have been working on. In my next draft, I will update to show that only “Legal Citizens” are allowed to vote, even tho that is supposedly the law now. As for the anchor babies, please re-read the immigration section again, as I believe that I covered them in that section…there will be no more anchor babies.

    • eyeswideopen

      Average Joe, Holy crap, that was really something!! I agree with most of it. I won’t ask you all of my questions at one time, I will spread them out. That was impressive. Well thought out, easy to read. ATTA BOY TO YOU, KUDOS. First time anyone, including myself has any concrete ideas or suggestions. I would be more than happy to work with you on some of these. Thank you for taking the time and effort.

      • Average Joe

        eyeswideopen,

        I believe we have spoken here before on a few occasions…so, Howdy!

        Thank you so much for the Kudos and thank you for actually taking the time to read it. As I stated earlier, these are just some thought’s that have have been having and actually have been sorta keeping a log of those thoughts. Based not so much on my upbringing, but rather a quest for answers to so many unanswered questions about how this nation was supposed to work according to our founding documents. We as a people talk a lot about the US Constitution, The Bill of Rights and the Declaration of Independence, which are all some of the grandly conceived and inspiring documents of all time. What we fail to do, is to look at what lead up to those documents, The Federalist Papers etc. These documents showed the intent of the framers, they showed what these men were afraid of and what drove them to write those three documents. These men who wrote the US Constitution, The Bill of Rights and the Declaration of Independence, knew what could happen if the government was left unchecked by the people. I am just looking for a reasonable way to put things right in this country and return to the Republic that was once the greatest nation on earth, and can be again …if given a slight push in the right direction.
        I beleive in speaking plainly and simply, so that anyone can understand my point (I also believe in spell checking, lol).
        I will continue to modify my “thoughts” from time to time…who knows…maybe it could catch on….someday….Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of happiness I wish for all.

        • JeffH

          Thanks for the ideas. Your ideas are like a chef creating a new recipewith others. Some ingredients enhance the dish, some don’t. Once everything has been “tweeked” and tasted, then voila…a recipe for success.

          • Average Joe

            JeffH,
            Just be careful that you don’t do what the congress does to a “recipe for success”…..Please don’t water it down ….it loses it’s flavor.
            Above all keep the ingredients…Strictly “Constitutional”.

          • JeffH

            I’m on board 100%.

        • American Citizen

          You need to run for Congress.

          • Average Joe

            American Citizen,
            I appreciate the vote of confidence in me. Although I don’t think I would be welcome there, I use something that most politicians don’t ever use….common sense. Although if I were in congress, I would work for the American People for 25-30k per year (since like most politicians, I really won’t have much to do).I would opt out of the government retirement and health care systems. It is not the American people’s responsibility to grant me free anything and certainly not for one single term in office.I would not take any campaign contributions from any corporate entity(as stated earlier public finances only)I would attempt to get a Constitutional Amendment to limit all terms for any elected office to no more than (2) terms (in order to subdue the propensity for corruption). I would introduce legislation to ban all lobbyist from contact with elected officials with a minimum sentence of (5) yrs. in jail for any violation (for both the officials and lobbyist).Also, legislation that would put any elected official in jail for a minimum (10) years if convicted of accepting any bribe or “freebie” from any special interest or group.
            I would move to get rid of the Federal Reserve, DHS, FEMA, The Dept. of Education, Income Tax and the IRS….in other words…shrink the National Government to get rid of waste and save the American people half a trillion a year or more. I would move to repeal the Patriot Act and return liberty and the rule of law to the American People. Of course you know the other changes that I would make (based on my ideas for a Constitutional country)….But alas, the system is rigged and someone like me has no chance of ever being elected into a position where I may actually implement ideas that are consistent with Constitutional Law.

      • Average Joe

        eyeswideopen,

        “I agree with most of it”

        Tell the truth, it was the stocks, pillory and public floggings that made you a believer….lol…if you like it…copy and paste it on other sites…maybe it will catch on….questions?….fire away…I’ll do my best, however, I do not ask anyone to believe what I say, but rather that you research for yourselves and make your own determinations.

    • David

      Don’t forget free markets…entreprenuers and no bailout nation for the fat inefficient companies.

      • Average Joe

        David,
        lol…that is already a given…since there is absolutely no authority in the Constitution granting the Federal Government the ability to bail out private industry. What was done, was done by the Federal Reserve, by exercising rule 1303….thereby circumventing the congress and just printing the money and handing it to A.I.G. etc.By eliminating the Federal Reserve, that part of the equation would be taken care of.
        As for the free market economy and education, the National government needs to get it’s nose out of regulation and oversight completely.
        Allow all regulations on the state level, each state can set it’s own rules for business and education, which will in turn create competition and innovation.Allow insurance to be sold across state lines, again creating competition and a lowering of prices. Yes, I beleive in Free Market economics….but only if they are truly FREE.

    • april

      Another answer to average Joe. Thomas Jefferson said, and I know he’s smarter than most anyone these days. Only land owners should be allowed to vote, for only them have a stake in the game. If anyone is allowed to vote, you wind up with fools voting in fools that run our Gov’t now. With most of their views and dangerous radical friends, they couldn’t get a job as a dog catcher, cop, or FBI agent. But they can get in the white house…….

      • Average Joe

        april,

        “The people… are not qualified to exercise themselves the Executive department; but they are qualified to name the person who shall exercise it. With us, therefore, they choose this officer every four years.” –Thomas Jefferson to Abbe Arnoux, 1789. ME 7:422, Papers 15:283

        “The danger is that the indulgence and attachments of the people will keep a man in the chair after he becomes a dotard, that reelection through life shall become habitual and election for life follow that.” –Thomas Jefferson to John Taylor, 1805. ME 10:77

      • DaveH

        I know this isn’t politically feasible April, but I think every voting age American should pay exactly the same dollar amount for taxes. That should be the only taxes. That way, everyone would have the same ‘skin in the game’ which would deter people from voting so easily for wasteful government programs.

        • ccg

          I also think if you don’t pay taxes you don’t vote.

  • Brittancus

    Now they want to push another BLANKET AMNESTY upon us. The Democrats have promised those already here a path to citizenship, that defies all logic. It means access to our health care reform instantly, totalization of social security with those from South of the border. It means sharing your retirement with the majority of foreign nationals who been sponging of Americans for decades. It means more welfare for the old, the indigent who will follow on, through chain migration. It means your living standards falling to that of third world existence. If Amnesty passes do you think for one minute that those without hope in other countries are—NOT–going to pour through our porous border? I’m getting old, but I fear for my son’s future, my family. I have my pensions, but where do you stand? Will you get a pension upon retirement? Our infrastructure has suffered, because we send our young people to fight foreign wars for special interests. For years those who supposedly embody us in Washington, have seriously neglected our road, rail, utilities and communications network. The special interests are the multi-national companies, who have no loyalty to America, the people or the US Constitution. Then there are the majority of our politicians, who have slowly succumbed to business handouts? The only thing they have any loyalty to, is filling their own bank accounts with campaign contributions and undisclosed lucrative gifts. DID AMERICA COME ALL THIS WAY TO SINK BELOW A LAYER OF GREED AND UNBELIEVABLE CORRUPTION IN WASHINGTON, SINCE THE TIME OF THE AMERICAN REVOLUTION?

    The fact is uncomplicated that E-Verify WORKS! And it is up, running and operational, so that illegal foreign workers other than a few using counterfeit documents will be discovered and eliminated from the workplace. Th Special interest lobbyists want it dropped, because it has grown in popularity and more sincere Pro-American companies are using it? Another simple fact is that its—SUCCEEDING! It is now hurting the elusive Council of Foreign Relations agenda to destabilize American workers and substitute even more cut-rate even a government agency, but a Quasi agency that is a kind of sinister think tank. For years they have been formatting their power to undo the poorly built border fence, wreck inspections at airports, so millions more can pour into American and steal jobs. Nor does matter to the illicit ACLU, a communist inspired group or business consortium’s, who owe no loyalty to US workers? It is a case of drowning America in low wage recruits, who are not just working in the fields, but janitors, fast food, factories, warehouses and higher paying jobs then citizens and legal employees realize?. AMERICAN WORKERS MUST MAKE A STAND. Anybody who legally displays the E-Verify sign should get the customers dollars, those who don’t comply should be absolutely BOYCOTTED. I go to El Pollo Loco, but not to McDonalds-because I haven’t seen the E-Verify sign yet? Same I only try to buy AMERICAN? But that is even becoming more indefinable, because many parts of products are imported in from cheap labor countries, killing our own manufacturing base. WE ARE SELF-INFLICTING OUR OWN WOUNDS?

    The same with not training our own workers and instead imported significantly more labor from other lands by the millions each year. Thus we cheat our own industries. We can beat this, by electing politicians who sign a–CONTRACT– stating American workers come first? Not those just affirming an oath of office, since to many it’s meaningless. These contracts can be published and shown to the public and the national media. We are cutting our own throats in so many ways, because many bona-fide US Americans don’t bother to vote the political corruption–OUT OF OFFICE. Most of the lawmakers are out for gain, not truly there to protect the American poor, not protecting our vulnerable senior’s, not even really protecting our military, if they even come home? With the health care reform as a major issue, then research you’re local, state of federal lawmaker and locate their screened interests in pharmaceutical companies, hospitals, insurance, billing companies or anything that exudes money? They are just coveting their own interests? THE AMERICAN PEOPLE HAVE THE ULTIMATE POWER, TO STOP THIS TRAVESTY OF OUR IMMIGRATION LAWS. Even our police departments are under attack by pro illegal immigrant politicians and open border crazies, which includes an old timer like Sheriff Joe Ariapo. He was following federal law called 287 G, to apprehend criminal aliens. But their all Criminals. They entered a sovereign nation without permission. Joe will thankfully carry on under state law and nothing will deter him? IT SHOULD BE MADE A FIRST CLASS FELONY AS IT IS IN DEVELOPED NATIONS.

    We should replace the pit of Vipers led by Sen. Harry Reid and joined by Liberal Democrat leaders last week–KILLED–by a vote of 61 to 38 shot down Senator Vitters amendment of that would have withdrawn federal funds to–SANCTUARY CITIES AND STATES. It is more taxpayer money being stolen to support illegal families, gang members and other heinous criminals who broached our laws. The IRS is actually extracting the money you earn, to take it in April, to support Anchor families included with the 20 million to thirty million people that should be ejected from our nation. Homeland security run by Napolitano is in deep collusion with sleaze that is catered to in Washington. Perhaps–just perhaps if we used public funding for election Campaigns for the politicians, it would assist in removing the corruption in DC, severing the lobbyists. Speaker of the House is another problem, who runs her vineyards with illegal foreign workers in CALIFORNIA. But that is just scratching the surface of both parties as they are perpetually involved in running the country for the globalists.

    Only if we stand together and demand E-Verify program, our uniformed police right to question and detain people of unauthorized immigration status 287 G? Hopefully next year Americans will see through the greed, in the Senate and house and start by–REMOVING–Sen. Harry Reid and Nancy Pelosi. Both have millions of illegal aliens living off taxpayers in California and Nevada. GO and investigate their immigration grading and every lawmaker at NUMBERSUSA website. Vote them out? WE MUST HAVE E-VERIFY AS A MANDATED LAW, SEN. HARRY REID SOLD US OUT TO THE HIGHEST BIDDER. CALL YOUR LEGISLATORS TODAY AT 202-224-3121 and give them an ULTIMATUM. Businesses that hire the millions of illegal aliens are bleeding us dry, because we pay for the health care and education and for hundreds of thousands in the prisons. Your tax dollars are paying for warm cells and California has the largest proportion of any state. MAKE ENTERING AMERICA A CLASS ONE FELONY, LIKE OTHER DEVELOPED COUNTRIES. EVEN MEXICO YOU ARE DRAGGED INTO ONE OF THOSE REPUGNANT PRISONS.

    • shannon

      i suggect removing your list of people be listed as trators and be tried as such. next teh democtats are wanting all illegals be made llegal for one purpose and that is to keep the democtats in power to rule over america. illegals from mexico have sent billions back home where that amount triples in buying power. there needs to be a stop of any money transfers to mexico and other foriegn countries with out permits and alws governing such transfers.

    • Joe H.

      Brittancus,
      I find what you say to be the only chink in the armor of what Average Joe says above. this country can not continue to take a steady stream of people in each year without stop. We only have so many resources and room. We can’t medically treat all the people we have right now without adding 20 or 30 million more each year. Mexico would become another ghost town and the U.S. another Africa. We would have rampant starvation and sickness. That is how nature works too many people in one area? Starvation and sickness. I feel bad for the Mexicans too anybody with a heart would but we have to put up the barrier somewhere!

      • Average Joe

        Joe H.
        While I agree with you that population is a definite issue, it is going to be a issue regardless of immigration. Also as stated…these are just ideas…not written in stone. On the issue of immigration, there do need to be limits on how many we can allow from all over the world (we are not just talking about Hispanic people here). So yes, limits must be set. We also need to start thinking about population control as well. I am not into eugenics, however at the current rate of growth, in the next 150-200 years there will be too many people for the planet to support. I think China has a great plan…one person…one child. I wouldn’t want to put that into law or anything, I would however hope that people would see this for themselves and act responsibly for the sake of both the planet and mankind in general.

        • DaveH

          Individual responsibility would be a big deterrent to population growth. That would mean no special breaks for dependents. People would be free to have large families, but they would have to pay for their own and would not get to ride on the backs of unwilling donors through income tax breaks or other such means. Not many people would produce children irresponsibly if they weren’t allowed to share their burdens with unwilling donors.
          These kind of responsible freedoms are the cornerstone of Libertarian philosophy. It would solve many of today’s problems and conflicts.
          Read this free online book, and then, hopefully, do other research into the huge advantages of individual freedom and responsibility.
          http://mises.org/rothbard/foranewlb.pdf

          • Average Joe

            DaveH,
            It’s Murray, I know of Murray Rothbard (being a Ron Paul supporter), and his beliefs. Glad to see there are others out there that understand Austrian Economics over Keynesian Economics. Too bad that more in congress don’t understand…

          • American Citizen

            No, each family should be allowed 2 children in order to replace themselves. Otherwise, there will not be enough citizens to sustain the country. There will be deaths due to old age, war, accidents, etc.

          • DaveH

            Average,
            Oh, I think they know. They just ignore that fact because it gets in the way of their growth in power.

        • Average Joe

          American Citizen says:,
          er…..wouldn’t that be…..one person…..one child?….exactly as the Chinese do.

        • Joe H.

          Average Joe
          I think we are about at the saturation lever now as far as our southern border. Look at all the southern states and how their economies are. Like California, the economy is almost non-existant!!! Crime Gangs, violent crime, In Los Angles 60% of the inmates in jail are latino. while they are less than 35 % of the people. Now we have Russian gangsters here called the Russian maffia. They are twice as ruthless as the Itallian mob. Then you go to the south American countries that have people sneeking in and you have the real gangsters that sell hard drugs and prostitution. These are the kind of immigrants we are getting mixed in with the few good ones

    • april

      Answer to Brittiancus. I think it’s a class 1 felony to enter Mexico illegally. I have a friend that went to Egypt. There they have armed gards with machine guns, ready to shoot anybody trying to enter their country illegally. We could learn something good from them…..

  • Barry

    I don’t know anything about FAIR, There are many organizations trying to influence on both sides of the immigration issue; the Obama administration is trying to stop local law enforcement agencies from enforcing our immigration laws; just in the last week they have moved 300 or 400 border patrol from the Mexican to the Canadian border and openly trying to stop Sheriff Joe in Arizona from arresting illegal immigrants.

    All we have to do is seal the southern border to stop more immigrants illegally entering our country, All the states that don’t want illegal immigrants in their state pass a law forcing all employers to use the E-Verify system to verify a new employee is eligible to work in is the United States. E-Verify is a free service offered by Homeland Security and the Social Security Administration and can only be used after the employee has been hired, it can’t use it to screen job applicants or employees hired before they started using E-Verify and fine employers that that do not use it. If the illegal immigrants can’t find work most of them will go home. We setup a guest worker program for employers to legally hire and have applied for work in the United States.

    I am also concerned about part of this blog’s administrator’s statement above “not tolerate slanderous comments”
    Who desides what is slanderous and what is not, this is censorship.

    • eyeswideopen

      Barry, freedom of speech does not mean that we can spout off anywhere and anything we want. If someone has purchased radio, tv, or web sites they have the right to censor what is said. If Bob, didn’t censor this site, it could get very ugly as there are a few who don’t agree with the party line. We have things called civil laws for a reason. Civility is not an automatic human response when you feel cornerd and are in the minority. Civility is not automatic, when you are in the majority and resistance to your point of view is encountered. Be happy that Bob, gives us this forum.

      • Average Joe

        eyeswideopen,

        Thank you, for stating that in such eloquent manner. Well said

      • libertytrain

        Eyes, nicely said, this is Bob’s site – what Barry chooses to do on his site is his right. I’ve said before, Bob grants us a pretty free rein here. More than other sites do.

      • ccg

        Good for you Eyes. Thank you.

      • JeffH

        eyes, very well stated. Good job!

      • American Citizen

        Eyes, I agree wholeheartedly. I’ve been on sites where people use foul language, call one another terrible names, and in general makes donkeys of themselves, if you get my meaning.

  • Barry

    Brittancus is correct.

  • Jack Kinch(1uncle)

    The worst thing government has done was breed the uneducated to the uneducated to create millions more tax users on welfare. The second worse was in not securing our borders by any means necessary. Crime and its cost has grown exponentially.

    • American Citizen

      Nah, the worst thing s allowing them to vote.

    • eyeswideopen

      Ok, Jack, is it you that will decide you is educated and can breed? What about the hillbilly’s in W. Va, Kentucky, Ar.? Are you saying that those people do not have the priviledge to have children? Their way of life is different from ours, but that doesn’t mean it is less cherished. Your remarks sound similiar to the Nazi’s, who wanted a pure race who was education. I will fight you to the death for the right of people to have children and to decide how much education and what type of education they will instruct them in. The people who live in the “back hills” are still Americans and have the right to live a different type of life than what you and I are used too. Not, everybody wants to live in the city and go to college and they shouldn’t have to as this is AMERICA LAND OF THE FREE!!!!

      • libertytrain

        EYES -This sounded kind of racist to me – what you are implying about those particular people in those particular states – I don’t understand why you would select specific groups of people and/or states to use as your example of people some might not think worthy?? Why those states? Why those people – what do you really think about them – in order to use them in such a derogatory manner? “Jack” never said what part of our country he thought were uneducated and not worthy – you kind of decided that? That’s like you saying “All inner city kids” or any other number of bad choices you could have inferred, you chose to use “Hillbilly’s” – I’m surprised and disappointed in your comment – I understand what your attempt was but all the good was lost in the racist choice, you made, to select a people you deemed – would be considered “unworthy” …

        “What about the hillbilly’s in W. Va, Kentucky, Ar.? Are you saying that those people do not have the priviledge to have children?”from eyeswideopen post-

      • Average Joe

        eyeswideopen, Thank you again.
        Having had the misfortune(or fortune) of being born in W.Va.I fully understand the stigma that people place on others simply because of stereotyping.Yes, there are some bass ackwards people in W.Va….but they are in every other state and country in the world…it is a fact of life….we all have our village idiots to deal with..realize it, deal with it and move on..We need to stop lumping people together in groups. We are all individually different…end of story.

  • Palin12

    You guys gotta see this one. Nanci Pelosi talking to a group of illegal immigrants:

    http://popmodal.com/video/2204/Immigration-Laws-Un-American-Pelosi

  • ccg

    Some of you advocate bringing our Military home immediately. My concern with that is we are engaging the terrorists on their own territory, not here in the states. We have just recently caught and stopped at least 4 different terroristic acts just in the past few weeks.
    These terrorists are not out to build up the United States, but to tear it down, by blowing things up. These ‘things’ include buildings, streets and people.
    We have the freedom to go the store of our choice without fear of being blown up at any moment. We have the freedom to drive down a street that has not got humongous holes in them from bombs or IED’s that have torn up our streets. Sure we have roads that have holes in them from wear and tear, but nothing like it would be if it had been blown up like other countries do that have been in war. We are fortunate in this country to not have had to endure this, all because we do send our Military to ‘them’, and not let ‘them’ come to us.

    • Average Joe

      ccg,
      Did you ever stop to think that if we were not occupying their nations…they may not have a reason to be angry at us in the first place? We have over 700 military bases around the world (in sovereign nations other than our own)”enforcing” American ideologies and policies upon their people…we have become the “occupiers” of the entire world!
      How would you react to waking up tomorrow morning and finding that the Chinese had invaded our nation and was now implementing Chinese policy upon you and your loved ones? Put yourself in the other person’s shoes in order to get a little retrospect on the situation (Google: Hardin, Montana) Would you suddenly be labeled a terrorist, simply because you wanted to defend your homeland? Please be careful of labels, you could get stuck with one. Non-interventionism is the answer…if we leave them alone…maybe…just maybe…they will have no reason to hate us. Maybe we could start trading with them…maybe we could learn to….get along.

      • ccg

        Excuse me? These are Radical Islamists. They do not have to have a reason to hate us. They hate us because we do not believe in their god. I used a small g as their god is a false god.
        As it is written in the Quaran they should lie to us, even kill us as we are considered the infidels. They call our country the Great Satan. All of our women are whores according to them. They want to take us over. What part of they hate us and want us dead do you not comprehend? Even if as you are illuminating at that ‘we caused it ourselves because we are such a bad people’, it is now too late, the damage is done and us bowing down to them will not work and they will not rest until we are all dead. They want to take over this country and make us all either turn to Islam or die.
        These radical Islamists are bullies. You can not run from a bully. You must stand up to them.

        • Average Joe

          ccg,
          Some people just don’t get it and you are one of them. It would be pointless to argue with you on the subject since your mind is already made up and nothing I could possibly say is gonna change that. You have what I call the “It’s my opinion and it’s very true” syndrome.
          Some people believe that war is the only answer…it is not. We cannot browbeat people into believing our standards and reasoning, that will only instill more hatred of us.Stop believing what the lamestrem media tells you, do a little research and make informed decisions.

          This article was written sometime in the 1980′s, as referenced by the population, Tip O’Neil, Lebanon etc. Everything is still valid.

          THE 545 PEOPLE
          RESPONSIBLE FOR ALL
          OF AMERICA’S WOES

          BY CHARLEY REESE

          Politicians are the only people in the world who create problems and then campaign against them.

          Have you ever wondered why, if both the Democrats and the Republicans are against deficits, we have deficits? Have you ever wondered why, if all the politicians are against inflation and high taxes, we have inflation and high taxes?

          You and I don’t propose a federal budget. The president does. You and I don’t have the Constitutional authority to vote on appropriations. The House of Representatives does. You and I don’t write the tax code. Congress does. You and I don’t set fiscal policy. Congress does. You and I don’t control monetary policy. The Federal Reserve Bank does.

          One hundred senators, 435 congressmen, one president and nine Supreme Court justices – 545 human beings out of the 235 million – are directly, legally, morally and individually responsible for the domestic problems that plague this country.

          I excluded the members of the Federal Reserve Board because that problem was created by the Congress. In 1913, Congress delegated its Constitutional duty to provide a sound currency to a federally chartered but private central bank.

          I excluded all but the special interests and lobbyists for a sound reason. They have no legal authority. They have no ability to coerce a senator, a congressman or a president to do one cotton-picking thing. I don’t care if they offer a politician $1 million dollars in cash. The politician has the power to accept or reject it.

          No matter what the lobbyist promises, it is the legislator’s responsibility to determine how he votes.

          A CONFIDENCE CONSPIRACY

          Don’t you see how the con game that is played on the people by the politicians? Those 545 human beings spend much of their energy convincing you that what they did is not their fault. They cooperate in this common con regardless of party.

          What separates a politician from a normal human being is an excessive amount of gall. No normal human being would have the gall of Tip O’Neill, who stood up and criticized Ronald Reagan for creating deficits.

          The president can only propose a budget. He cannot force the Congress to accept it. The Constitution, which is the supreme law of the land, gives sole responsibility to the House of Representatives for originating appropriations and taxes.

          O’neill is the speaker of the House. He is the leader of the majority party. He and his fellow Democrats, not the president, can approve any budget they want. If the president vetoes it, they can pass it over his veto.

          REPLACE SCOUNDRELS

          It seems inconceivable to me that a nation of 235 million cannot replace 545 people who stand convicted — by present facts – of incompetence and irresponsibility.

          I can’t think of a single domestic problem, from an unfair tax code to defense overruns, that is not traceable directly to those 545 people.

          When you fully grasp the plain truth that 545 people exercise power of the federal government, then it must follow that what exists is what they want to exist.

          If the tax code is unfair, it’s because they want it unfair. If the budget is in the red, it’s because they want it in the red. If the Marines are in Lebanon, it’s because they want them in Lebanon.

          There are no insoluble government problems. Do not let these 545 people shift the blame to bureaucrats, whom they hire and whose jobs they can abolish; to lobbyists, whose gifts and advice they can reject; to regulators, to whom they give the power to regulate and from whom they can take it.

          Above all, do not let them con you into the belief that there exist disembodied mystical forces like “the economy,” “inflation” or “politics” that prevent them from doing what they take an oath to do.

          Those 545 people and they alone are responsible. They and they alone have the power. They and they alone should be held accountable by the people who are their bosses – provided they have the gumption to manage their own employees.

          This article was taken from the Orlando Sentinel Star newspaper

          When you figure this out, remember this:

          The government has lots of bills to pay (all of those bailouts, buyouts, loans from the Federal Reserve etc.), which by the way 75% of the American people were against. The government needs us in order to pay those bills (ie. Taxes). I say cut the bastards off completely! Stop paying them (to continue paying them only encourages them to keep doing the same things).

          By cutting them off financially, we get their attention…that, or they cease to exist.

          If by chance their creditors decide to foreclose on them, who really cares? The creditors get the District of Columbia and all of it’s territories (Guam, Puerto Rico, Gitmo etc.), again….who really cares? The creditors do not get the states as the states did not contract with them…the National Government did. We can always built a new Federal Capitol and elect a new National Government (and for the first time in many years….be idiot free)…….Stop paying them…NOW!

          • ccg

            I happen to agree with the article, its you that I don’t agree with. Cowards have always been with us and I can see they are among us now. I did not advocate starting any war. I said and will repeat we cannot be afraid to take a stand against bullies. There are those in this world that would destroy us if they could.
            That’s all right Average Joe. The rest of us will defend you.

          • eyeswideopen

            well, said.

          • Average Joe

            “If money is wanted
            by Rulers
            who have in any manner
            oppressed the People,
            they may retain it
            until their grievances
            are redressed,
            and thus peaceably
            procure relief,
            without trusting to
            despised petitions
            or disturbing
            the public tranquility.”

            Journals of the Continental Congress,
            1:105-113

            From an 8-page official Act passed unanimously by the Founders in 1774

        • Joe H.

          ccg I agree with you. If we run from the afgans and the Iraquis we are SURE to be hit again within the next two years. They will be emboldened and will strike on american soil and this time it might kill someones heres’ family. Yours ,mine, Average joes, anyones. Better to fight them there than here. bet on it!!!!

      • ccg

        Yes, I realize we are a terrible country. We have gone in and forced all of these other countries to live their lives the way we do, and except our ideologies. Why, take a look at Germany. Yep, they are all Americanized aren’t they. They have totally adopted our ways NOT.!!
        They have demonstrated over and over that they are their own people. We don’t control their Government any more than we control Iran. We negotiate with them like we do any other country.
        We are in Iraq. Iraq has their own laws and even our military has to abide by their laws.
        Sure, we are not a perfect people, but neither are we the Great Satan like they and you seem to think we are.

      • DaveH

        My answer to domestic terrorists would be to find out who their supporters are/were and take them out. For instance, once we determined that Afghanistan was training terrorists to commit acts of murder against United States’ citizens as in 9/11, we should have gone over there and took out about 3 times as many of them. And then get the flock out. No nation building. That would be a much more effective and cheap solution than the one we pursued. We wouldn’t have to do that many times before they got the message to not mess with us.

        • JeffH

          Sometimes the world could learn a lesson from Israel. They don’t mess around. Strike quick, eliminate the threat, and get out. Sometimes diplomacy only delays the inevitable.

          • Thurman Marcum

            Jeffh,

            Who own the area before Israel become a state?It was the Arabs. Rabbi Elmer Berger said there is no historical evidence that Palestine and the surrouding area ever belong to the Jews.You are advocating it is alright to attack another country with out proof that country is guilty of anything.
            We don’t need more conflict,but solutions to the problems.What I am stating, is facts.That is why we still have conflicts.Like I said no one is entirely wrong or right.You can’t strike and ask questions later.That what got us in this mess.Violence begats violence.Lets start listen to both sides.

        • Earlw

          Dave, one small question…WHO would we have taken out? The target you speak of is ill defined. I am aware that at one time, the US knew the whereabouts of OBL. why didn’t they get him then? also, I believe that the Paki’s at one time offered to hand him over. again, no takers. Funny thing, that. In addition to that, there is a rising voice that states that OBL has been dead for approximately 5 years now, the victim of total kidney failure. it’s known that he ordered 2 dialysis machines. Whether he used them is not known…The real reason for the invasion was the fact that the Taliban didn’t want to deal with the USA regarding the oil pipeline thru that area. The Taliban had already concluded a deal with BRIDAS, a South American company, hence the fit of pique by the USA. I could go on at length, but I won’t bore you…All I can say is that things are not always as they appear……Of interest also is the Afghan president, Hamid Karzai, who just happened to be a UNOCAL OIL EXECUTIVE. Kind of makes sense, if your real motive was controlling the area…

          I suggest reading ” The grand chessboard” by Zbigniew Brzezinski ( by the way, he is Obama’s mentor ).

          • Average Joe

            Earlw,
            Thank you for that post.Amazing how since Karzai has been in office we managed to get approval for that pipeline btw….who woulda thunk?….keep up the good work..feeding peoples heads with information is a wonderful idea…I have known about the Karzai/ Unical connection for years…of course…since it wasn’t on the “NEWS”….it’s just another one of my “conspiracy Theories” according to most I talk to….go figure.But of course they can’t be bothered to do 5 mins. worth of googling to verify or disprove me.

      • Thurman Marcum

        Average Joe,
        I agree with you a hundred persent.Don’t they worship the same God?We did the same thing to the American indians.We occupied their land and then later on, own it.

      • April

        I think ccg does make an excellent point. Everywhere we occupy we always answered the cry for help and then we maintain peace. Radical Islamists are trying to force their religion and ways on us, not the other way around. We do have to stand up to and against these bullies; and the bullies illegally crossing our borders and the bullies in congress.

        • American Citizen

          It’s true that there are far too many in this country that do not listen or believe what the Islamists say, that their goal is to make the whole world Muslim. They do not worship the same god as Christians do. Look at their deeds as they say that is what their god wants them to do. My God is in no way like their god.

          • April

            As it says in 1 John 2:22-23 “Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? he is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son. Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: [but]he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.”

          • Average Joe

            American Citizen,
            let me get this straight, the Muslims want to make the world a Muslim world?That’s really unique. Oh…wait…. The Catholics want everyone to be Catholic…the Jewish want the world to be Jewish…Protestants want the world to be Protestants and so on down the line. But of course none of these groups have ever committed and atrocities against their fellow humans in order to promote their version of religion…..Hitler…killed the Jewish people….Spanish inquisition… Killed hundreds of thousands in the name of God…Thanks Pope….Ireland…Catholics and protestants killing each other in the name of God…..Salem….protestants burning people at the stake as witches….and let’s not forget about those godless heathens in the new world that we had to convert to know the truth….
            who of course had been just fine with their own religion for thousands of years before we arrived. We can all come up with excuses to justify our actions, but it all boils down to one excuse…stupidity. IF I am wrong about my beliefs, I will be the one to pay for it in the afterlife, not the Jews, not the Catholics, not the Protestants, not the Methodists, not the Hindu’s, nobody but…ME.
            The same holds true for every human being on the planet..so why are we killing each other in the name of religion?….stupidity and a false sense of self worth. We each have our own personal religious beliefs and we have the right to tell others what we personally believe, we do not have the right to force those beliefs on anyone else…not our responsibility, nor is it our right to do so.

          • Thurman Marcum

            American,

            The Christain God is very much like the Islamic God.Have you heard of the inquisition?The Catholic Church declare war on society.They used torture to get confessions out of people.It was usually old ugly deformed women that confessed they were in league with the devil.If a man wanted to get rid of his wife,he merely accuses her of witch craft,because divorce was a sin.Whole families were murdered,this was to possessed their properties.They also declare war on philosophers, scientist and inventors.A lot of fameous people face the church’s wrath for coming up with new ideas or inventions.The Protestant churches aren’t any better.Please check it out on the internet.

        • Average Joe

          April,

          I hate to ask this but , who in the Middle East has asked for our help?
          Only one country in the entire area asks for our help…yep…they have the largest nuclear arsenal in the region, the best weapons that we can give them and the most highly trained military in the region.They fight constantly with all of their neighbors and then have the audacity to scream that “they” are being persecuted and need our help…hmmmmm ….who could that be? Before someone calls me Jew hater or any other name, I am not, I could care less who anyone else worships or what their genetics are ( people are people)….however it is absolutely crazy to continue the same bigoted attitudes to your neighbors and then not expect them to be angry with you. Now that same country is telling us that if “we” don’t place sanctions against another of their neighbors, they are prepared to attack their neighbor and start another conflict in the region. I am sorry but…stupidity is stupidity. Of course they are expecting us to help with their new war….my suggestion is that they grow up and stop trying to be the neighborhood bully….who brings in his big brother when he is losing the fight…I don’t care who they are…being a bully is still wrong and expecting us to get in every fight you start….is not our job. Look, my point is this….people are people…religion has been a reason to fight each other for centuries, why?…To prove that your god is better than my god?….let us not forget people…none of us will know for sure…..until after we are dead….and who are we going to tell the truth to then? Believe as you choose and let others believe as they choose. It is not our responsibility to make others believe what we believe, everyone is entitled to their own beliefs…right, wrong or indifferent, it is their business what they choose to believe, not ours.

          • Joe H.

            Average,
            Let’s see, Kuwaitt, Saudi, Israel All of these have asked for our help at one time or another. All of them in the middle east have asked us to protect their oil shipments from time to time.

        • eyeswideopen

          April, the Iragi’s did not cry out for our help. Our leaders made a rush to judgement and the male ego was probably mixed up in that decision making. We wanted to punish Iraq for their past transgressions, and some thought this would be an easy effort and we could bang our chests and come home. We also wanted to “shock and Awe” the world so they would be on warning that we had the nerve to do it, with the arms to back it up. I can understand why Iran armed itself. It saw us attack an innocent country and totally devastate it. We have hoped the fence on Iran and Iraq so many times that everyone is dizzy and who knows where we will stand from one day to another.? Do you remember the Iran -Contra affair, where the World Court found us guilty of War crimes against Nicaragua? We don’t seem to learn from our transgressions. When, Kuwait, asked us to help them, that is different from just throwing our weight around and forcing people to try and become a mini Americas.

      • Joe H.

        Average Joe,
        Sorry, but I have to disagree with you again. The people you are talking about would not be content with their own countries and people. they are bent on destroying anybody that is not of their beliefs. how long do you think Iran would be content with just having nukes and not using them? You don’t think they are going to use them over there do you? The biggest pain in the backside to them is our freedoms and our Christianity! Our Beliefs and our right to not believe if we so choose! We are heretics to them and we are to be conquered or destroyed as such!

        • Thurman Marcum

          Average,

          That what we aid about the Russians.That is fear talk.

        • Thurman Marcum

          Joeh

          I meant you.That what they said about the Russians.Fear talk,Sorry Average Joe.I got the wrong Joe.

          • Joe H.

            Marcum,
            How many of them have you fought? How many do you personally know? Muslims that is. I know about 10 of them and I trust two. All ten live here too. Now let’s reverse my finding and only find 2 bad out of every say 15. Do you realise that that’s 2 million bad living right here in rivercity as the song goes? 2 million sleepers waiting for their chance, being nice to susie homemaker and her kids until the day they are called upon. then susie and her kids are dead. still think we should leave their country? Think real hard about it!!!!

          • Average Joe

            Joe H. says:,

            er…yes….I still think we should leave their country…your “fear mongering” doesn’t effect me….but it was a gallant attempt on your behalf…..BRAVO!…Beware of the monster in your closet…and the one under your bed.

        • DaveH

          Joe,
          I agree that many of them are dangerous to our lives and to our freedom. But squandering our resources trying to be the world’s policemen is not the solution. By impoverishing our nation (and I’m not blaming just the military excursions for that) we have been rendered vulnerable to our enemies right here at home.
          We need to arm ourselves to the teeth, and leave the other countries to their own people. If we continue down the current path, our freedom and our wealth are going to be things of the past.

  • ONTIME

    The SPLC is also the lib group that went on FOX and claimed they have seen the Obama birth certificate but when asked to produce a verifiable copy they refuse to respond. This is just another lib motor mouth group that has a hard time with anything related to truth. The best thing you can do for them is ignore them.

    Libs love to tell you all about what they don’t know and expect you to listen as though it were written in stone….wierd and rude.

  • someone

    FAIR is a hate group. period. calling names? I don’t think so. using fascists methods to treat people for anything is just wrong, unethical and un-american.
    first, get your record straight. those people break laws, that’s true, and yes, they should be held responsible for that. however, they break laws because there is no other option for them. there is demand for their services mainly because lazy americans would rather be taking unemployment than do certain jobs. I’ve never heard of an illegal immigrant getting unemployment benefits.
    the point is, immigration law is flawed, outdated and should be changed.
    punishing employers wouldn’t work, because they simply have no choice but to hire illegals. they CANNOT bring them here legally!
    even in cases where people come here legally do you have any idea how discriminating, intimidating and humiliating process can be?
    stop fighting for wrong causes, educate yourself and open your eyes!

    • NunJoBizNess

      Our immigration system is not broken. If the laws were enforced it would work just fine, but Dems and Repubs both seem hell bent on continuing to screw it up. The process should be streamlined, but totally overhauled? I think not. Just today I heard our so-called Homeland Sevcurity chief Janet Napolotano says our tax dollars will be going to empty HOTELS to house illegals…..nice.

      For the life of me, I don’t understand why there is no political will to secure our border. They should have been shut down on Sept 11, 2001 and they should have made securing it a top priority after that. There is a video out with a terrorist talking about how easy it would be to sneak a suitcase full of Anthrax across the mexican border that could kill 300,000 people! These politicians have enough blood on thier hands, yet they continue to keep things status quo!

      If anyone out there is on the fence about how the terrorist mind works, I might suggest a very good book called “Because They Hate” by Brigitte Gabriel. I was able to find a copy at my local library…

      • ccg

        They didn’t even shut it down when Mexico was riddled with Swine Flu. Common sense says it should have been shut down then too, but not this President, nor would Bush have closed it.

    • American Citizen

      Balderdash! If it were not for the illegal aliens, the unemployment rate would be almost zero. The unemployment among our young people, the teens, is tremendous, especially among the blacks. I just heard the figures yesterday, and among black teenagers, the figure is 70%. Desperate people do desperate things. Every job does not require a college education. There are a lot of college graduates either unemployed right now or taking lower paying jobs.

      • eyeswideopen

        American, show me the teenagers, who come from middle class, who will go out and do back breaking crop picking during the hotest time of day and I really will kiss your butt. Don’t you remember what ,DaveH, told you about his sister, who is living on credit cards and won’t take a job under $10.00 an hour? That is the attitude of middle class America. They would rather get unemployment rather than work, or just put it on their credit cards. P.S. to Dave, we have one right down the street who is doing the same thing, as his business failed (do to him and his buddy keeping cash under table, not the economy) his house getting reposssed and he and wife are charging up credit cards, buying new things as they are going to not pay those either… He just drove everybodies credit card interest up. It makes me crazy, as they used to slam the poor, and now they are doing somehting even worse.

        • eyeswideopen

          And they are driving down the value of my house!!!!! Of course her parents live right next door, and theirs is up for grabs also…
          Makes me so angry.

        • Joe H.

          Eyes,
          Start kissing. I’m from a middle class family and I’ve worked right alongside the mexican migrant workers picking apples, asperagis tomatoes, and other crops. One other thing I forgot to mention I’m about as white as they come! When I went into the service I had almost 7000 dollars from mowing and picking. Both of my daughters have done the same type of work as I made them. The problems are not the kids, it’s the parents. My dad could have bought me almost anything within reason but he always made me earn at least half the money I needed. The parents aren’t teaching their kids back bone. If they screw up, then they pay. Wreck a mans car or bike make him pay! I bet it dosen’t happen again!! Tough love is what these kids need today!!! try it!

    • Joe H.

      someone,
      I know a lot of people here that would be glad to work for 12.00 at a meat packing plant or 14.00 doing drywall work or even carpentry! Don’t believe it? Talk to people down in New Orleans or San Antonio! Happens all the time. I say if they are illegal and working here then ship them out and levy a hefty fine against any company that employs them! Dry up the work for them and soon they will self deport! Make E-verify permanent and use it at the hospitals also. As soon as the patient is well, DEPORT!

  • Average Joe

    ccg says:
    October 12, 2009 at 12:40 pm

    I happen to agree with the article, its you that I don’t agree with. Cowards have always been with us and I can see they are among us now. I did not advocate starting any war. I said and will repeat we cannot be afraid to take a stand against bullies. There are those in this world that would destroy us if they could.
    That’s all right Average Joe. The rest of us will defend you.

    First off you make a lot of assumptions about me, without knowing anything about me. First off as for being a coward sir, I demand a apology. For your information, I did my time in the military fighting another “undeclared war” called Viet Nam. Just like Viet Nam, this so called war on “terror” is also undeclared. Try reading the Constitution sometime and let me know where in said document we have authority to go to war (any war) without congressional approval. Maybe you need to read the document that you are attempting to defend. The last war that was actually declared was…WW2.
    Next what in the heck is a terrorist? Is it not someone who completely opposes your point of view and is willing to do anything at all to prove that to you? I do not care if this so called war on terror goes to infinity….you will never make everyone believe the same thing and therefore you will always have someone labeled as a “terrorist”. Just like the war on poverty,drugs,family values,religion,political affiliation,race etc. They can never be won through violent acts.
    Taking a stand against bullies?…which ones? Go ahead and tell me how we were attacked on 911…I am sure that you have a opinion on that too.I will however remind you that the science does not match the officially given facts. I will also remind you that most of the “Crime scene” evidence was removed as quickly as possible (out of the country to China) I always thought that evidence was something to preserve in the event that you wanted to bring charges and actually get a conviction (maybe I am weird for thinking this, but in most crime scenes that is exactly what the do…preserve the evidence). Which of course bring up another point. Why has there been absolutely no person tried…let alone convicted of any crime related to the 911 disaster? And why were those in Government that failed us so miserably on that day not reprimanded for their gross negligence…check the record…they were all rewarded …for incompetence….or was it for “just following orders”?

    • ccg

      Average Joe, Apologize? Your own words label you. You sound full of fear.

      • Average Joe

        ccg says:,
        Your own words label you. You sound full of fear.

        Excuse me? I took a oath of office when I enlisted…yes that is right ENLISTED. That oath was not something that I took lightly, nor was it something that was just rambling words. That oath was to protect and defend the constitution and the rule of law for the nation. Just because I am no longer in the military, does not mean that the oath is null or void. I fully intend to keep defending it until the day I die.
        I do not need nor do I want your protection of me. I would prefer to have camaraderie and common ground in order to help those of us that are trying to uphold our oaths.We cannot in good conscience uphold some parts while disregarding others.The documents are a whole and cannot nor will I allow it to be taken apart just because some of you don’t agree with certain parts.

        If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or your arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.
        Samuel Adams (1722–1803)

        I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them.
        Thomas Jefferson (1743–1826)

        Good intentions will always be pleaded for every assumption of authority. It is hardly too strong to say that the Constitution was made to guard the people against the dangers of good intentions. There are men in all ages who mean to govern well, but they mean to govern. They promise to be good masters, but they mean to be masters.
        Noah Webster (1758–1843)

        The American Republic will endure, until politicians realize they can bribe the people with their own money.
        Alexis de Tocqueville (1805–1859)

        • ccg

          That also goes for you, you can’t just pick and choose the parts you want to uphold.
          If you don’t want to be labeled a coward then don’t talk like one, cause you sure do talk like one. Like one of those peaceniks.

          I realize that you think you are smarter than Congress when they declared war in Nam and Iraq, but just because you claim it does not make it so.

          • Average Joe

            ccg,
            Again, no facts, just rhetoric. You have proven my point though. It is pointless to argue with you. You take is “take the fight to them, before they bring the fight to us”. I guess next we should start locking people up because they may sometime in the future…commit a crime? The same principle applies in both instances.
            We went to war against Iraq and Afghanistan based on false pretenses and outright lies fabricated by our elected officials and their underlings. The American people jumped on the bandwagon without so much as a shred of evidence the either of those countries had anything to do with 911. If they wanted Osama Bin Laden and had evidence to convict him, why did they not just send in a small special forces group to go get him? Did they not do that with Manuel Noriega? They propped up the pretense for this war for ulterior motives, based on fabricated evidence. What role did the Iraqi or Afghan people have in the 911 tragedy? None, so why are we there? Once again, I ask you …Where is the authority to go to war (preemptively in this case), without the approval of congress?
            It would seem that you are the one picking and choosing which parts to obey.
            Next time you comment, please bring verifiable facts instead your own uninformed opinion. Good day sir….go ahead…get your last word in.

          • eyeswideopen

            Average, Wow, that was really good. I enjoyed it. lol.

        • American Citizen

          You are comparing apples and oranges. The war on terrorists is not like the war on poverty. The former involves taking them out and the second handing them money. The Bible tells us there will always be war and rumors of war. We have to pick the right ones to fight.

          • Average Joe

            American Citizen,
            OK, I apologize, I got a little carried away there…. trying to make a point….my bad…I’ll do better in the future…thnx for pointing it out.Makes me more careful next time.

    • April

      Average Joe,
      “Try reading the Constitution sometime and let me know where in said document we have authority to go to war(any war) without congressional approval.”
      FYI
      Authorization was given by Congress via Letters of Marque and Reprisal (Article I Section 8. Do you know that these Letters of Marque and Reprisal are grantable by international laws, and therefore included in the Constution?

      • Average Joe

        April says:

        Letter of Marque
        Archaic. A letter of marque was issued by a nation to a privateer or mercenary to act on the behalf of that nation for the purpose of retaliating against another nation for some wrong, such as a border incursion or seizure.

        Note: issued by a nation to a Privateer or Mercenary to act on the behalf of that nation ….not to the US military

        Reprisal
        Archaic. An act taken by a nation, short of war, to gain redress for an action taken against that nation. For example, seizing a ship in retaliation for a seized ship.

        Note: An act taken by a nation, Short of War ,For example, seizing a ship in retaliation for a seized ship.

        Article 1 of the United States Constitution lists issuing letters of marque and reprisal in Section 8 as one of the enumerated powers of Congress, alongside the power to “declare War”. One question is whether the marque and reprisal clause requires the President to obtain such a letter from Congress as an authorization for limited offensive warlike operations outside the territory of the United States.

        It is the opinion of Jules Lobel, a Constitutional law scholar at the University of Pittsburgh School of Law, that the origins of this clause and the framers’ intent fit well with modern notions of irregular warfare, supporting the view that the President’s use of troops in foreign military operations, including covert paramilitary actions, is illegal without Congress’s authorization.[1]

        • Average Joe

          Some scholars, however, view this clause as contemplating action only by private contractors, and not as a limit on presidential power. For example, in 2002, Douglas Kmiec, then dean of the Columbus School of Law at the Catholic University of America, testified before the Senate Judiciary Committee that:

          Letters of Marque and Reprisal are grants of authority from Congress to private citizens, not the President. Their purpose is to expressly authorize seizure and forfeiture of goods by such citizens in the context of undeclared hostilities. Without such authorization, the citizen could be treated under international law as a pirate. Occasions where one’s citizens undertake hostile activity can often entangle the larger sovereignty, and therefore, it was sensible for Congress to desire to have a regulatory check upon it. Authorizing Congress to moderate or oversee private action, however, says absolutely nothing about the President’s responsibilities under the Constitution.[2]
          The issue of marque and reprisal was raised before Congress after the September 11, 2001 attacks[4] and again on July 21, 2007, by Congressman Ron Paul. The attacks were defined as acts of “air piracy”, and the Marque and Reprisal Act of 2001 was introduced, which would have granted the president the authority to use letters of marque and reprisal against the specific terrorists, instead of warring against a foreign state. The terrorists were compared to pirates in that they are difficult to fight by traditional military means.[5] Congressman Paul also advocated the use of letters of marque to address the issue of Somali pirates operating in the Gulf of Aden on April 15, 2009.

          • April

            Ave Joe, I know this is long but I thought you might enjoy the read.

            Declarations of War and Authorizations for the Use of Military Force: Historical Background and Legal Implications
            [Summary of Order Code RL31133 CRS Report for Congress]
            From the Washington Administration to the present, Congress and the President have enacted 11 separate formal declarations of war against foreign nations in five different wars. Each declaration has been preceded by a presidential request either in writing or in person
            before a joint session of Congress. The reasons cited in justification for the requests have included armed attacks on United States territory or its citizens and threats to United States
            rights or interests as a sovereign nation.
            Congress and the President have also on a number of occasions enacted authorizations for the use of force instead of declarations of war. Most commonly, such measures have authorized the use of force against either a named country or unnamed hostile nations in a given region. In most cases, the President has requested the authority, but Congress has sometimes given the President less than what he asked for. In contrast to the declarations of war, not all authorizations for the use of force have resulted in actual combat. Both declarations and authorizations require the signature of the President in order to become law.
            In contrast to an authorization, a declaration of war in itself creates a state of war under international law and legitimates the killing of enemy combatants, the seizure of its property,
            and the apprehension of enemy aliens. At one time, a declaration was deemed a necessary legal prerequisite to a war and was also thought to terminate diplomatic and commercial relations and most treaties between the combatants. In the modern era, the international legal
            consequences of declarations have become less determinate; in fact, declarations have rarely been issued since World War II. Perhaps most important, neither a declaration nor an authorization is necessary to trigger application of the laws of war, such as the Hague and
            Geneva Conventions; for that, the fact of armed conflict is the controlling circumstance.
            With respect to domestic law, a declaration of war automatically triggers many standby statutory authorities conferring special powers on the President with respect to the military,
            foreign trade, transportation, communications, manufacturing, alien enemies, etc.
            In contrast, no standby authorities appear to be triggered automatically by an authorization for the use of force. Most standby authorities do not require a declaration of war to be actualized
            but can be triggered by a declaration of national emergency or simply by the existence of a state of war. Declarations of war and authorizations for the use of force waive the time limitations otherwise applicable to the use of force imposed by the War Powers Resolution.
            This report provides historical background on the enactment of declarations of war and authorizations for the use of force and analyzes their legal effects under international and
            domestic law. It also sets forth their texts in two appendices. Because the statutes that confer standby authority on the President and the executive branch potentially play such a large role in an armed conflict to which the United States is a party, the report includes an extensive listing and summary of the statutes that are triggered by a declaration of war, a declaration of national emergency, and/or the existence of a state of war. The report
            concludes with a summary of the congressional procedures applicable to the enactment of a declaration of war or authorization for the use of force and to measures under the War Powers Resolution….

            http://fas.org/sgp/crs/natsec/RL31133.pdf

          • Average Joe

            April says:
            October 13, 2009 at 12:04 pm,
            Thank you for that info, not only did I read it, I went to the site and downloaded the entire report (which I am still reading). Information is a wonderful thing to have and I for one never seem to get enough. Again thank you for this material.

        • Thurman Marcum

          Average Joe,

          That was brilliant.The war in Afganstan and Iraq was a excuse to get rid two unpopular regimes.There is no evidence that either country was involve in the911 attack.Bush,Cheney and others who lied, has cost thousands of lives.I say bring our brave men and women home.You hit the nail on the head. You told the truth.

          • eyeswideopen

            I agree, why would it take 100,000 men to try and capture or kill 100? Never could wrap my mind around that one. Guard the border, and use our drones and wait to see what country they pop up next in. We know that we have Big Brother in the sky and that is how they find criminals traveling from state to state, here in America, so point that satellite and use the drones.

          • Joe H.

            Marcum,
            We stopped it in iraq as it was still going on. women were being raped daily numerous times. People were being killed in the thousands. You probably say there were never any weapons of mass destruction in Iraq? What about the nerve gas he used on the 13,000 khurds? I suppose he just had only that much. But there were no records? Destroyed and stirred the ashes. 14 Trucks were seen leaving Iraq into, if I remember right syria never to be seen again. What was in them? You can’t say and neither can the professionals over there! Another reason for Iraq was where is it better to fight AQ? In the afgan mountains? or the flat land dessert in iraq? We loose less men in the dessert than the highlands that fact was proven over and over in RVN. One has to look at the whole picture before judging!!! I have!

    • Joe H.

      Did you see the news today about the ship that was coming back to the U.S. for the first time since it was launched? It has 7.5 tons of steel from the towers I believe it is named the U.S.S. New York. They had to make a special dispensation in naming it as the names of states are reserved for Subs.

      • Average Joe

        Joe H.,
        yep…there’s a bunch of that “Crime scene” evidence that I was talking about….I wonder if we can still lift some prints?…..

  • someone

    @ccg

    you have no idea what are you talking about! of course we negotiate first, then if negotiations don’t go well, we won’t refrain from using brute force. usa is forcing other countries to accept our ideologies. want example? iraq. they had their own ideology. their own president. most Iraqis even liked him. iraq was not close minded islamic terrorist country. still our president decided that Saddam is a dictator and that’s not acceptable. to him of course. what was wrong with being a dictator? that was THEIR way and we forced them to accept OUR way – democracy. well, democracy is working out very well over there I see.
    need more examples? kosovo. most albanians came to kosovo illegaly, now we granted them a country, with complete disregard for serbian government and their history. maybe we should do the same to california, give it to mexicans? just a food for thought.

    there is more of course, this is just to give you an idea of american ideologies and respect for law.

    • Average Joe

      someone,

      Very well said.

    • ccg

      Someone, were you in Iraq?

    • Thurman Marcum

      someone,

      Well said;That is what I being say all long.Saddam was a liberal compare to his neighbors.Women had rights that was un heard of in Saudi Arabia,Iran and Afganistan.He built hospitals and highways.He had the cleanest water and sewage system in the middle east.He was once a ally of ours.He was double-crossed by George Bush Sr and later on remove by George junior.They wanted his oil,no matter what the cost.

      • American Citizen

        Sadam was a monster. He used WMD on his own people, he murdered millions on his own whims in horrible ways. Thee were rape rooms so he didn’t think all that much of the women there. He needed to be taken out for the sake of the people there. As for who is responsible for 9/11, they know who was. They all died in those planes. We also know who sponsored them, that’s why Osama is still being hunted.

        • April

          American Citizen
          Your facts are correct. And Thurman has lost a few marbles.

        • Thurman Marcum

          American Citizen,

          His people are killing our soldiers.They don’t want us in their country.I wouldn’t say his people.Saddam belong to the Suni tribe;the people he used the nerve gas on,was the kurds.They were loyal to Iran.The Reagon and Bush administration supply Saddan the weapons.Iraq is made up of five tribes.They all hate each other.Saddam kept law ond order.

      • eyeswideopen

        There was balance of power while Sadam was governing Iraq. The Iranians didn’t know he didn’t have WMD’s and that kept them safe. Prior to his hanging, he admitted to the local newpaper that he had kept a rouse going to kept Iran at a distance. He said that that type of secret could never have been kept safe in American we were like a colander. Leak, leak, leak.

    • ccg

      Someone,
      I never advocated not negotiating first, so you misunderstood what I was even talking about.

      As far as Iraq is concerned, they have sat up their laws, and we have to abide by those laws.

      2004
      In Iraq they drained the lake called Lake Victory because it was stinking so bad. They found over 1300 bodies of young girls between the ages of 11 and 14 that Sadam and his sons had violated, tortured, killed, and then just threw their bodies in that lake.

      You said most Iraqis even liked Sadam. Not most, but some did yes, but not most.

      • ccg

        Actually it was Lake Victoria not Lake Victory.

    • Joe H.

      Someone,
      Most Iraqis even liked him!?!?!? Are you dreaming? All the raping of women, murdering of 13,000 Khurds, murdering husbands so he could get to the wives, gassing his own people! People liked THAT???? He was a despot of the worst kind!! He invaded Kuwait, a peaceful nation next to him just cause he could. He was a murdering, raping, psycopath! The world is a better place without him!!

      • April

        Yeah! That is so right. And they hated and were afraid of his sons as well. They were just as bad if not worse.

      • ccg

        There was a woman and her crippled husband came out to sell food to the Iraqi’s that worked for the Americans. She was telling her story. She was not allowed to work under Sadams regime. They were starving. Now she was working and providing for her family. Her husband was telling the story and she was translating and her arms were just flailing.
        The Iraqi’s would have to hide their identity to work in the American camps and very often would warn the convoys of where the ambushes were going to be set up.
        These Iraqi’s would hug the Americans and say “Thank you America, Thank you.!!”
        They would also ask “What is wrong with America?” when the people over here would start complaining about us being over there.
        Some of the very camps that the Iraqi soldiers train at right now were terrorist training camps.

      • Average Joe

        Joe H. says:,
        OK, let’s for a moment say that you are absolutely correct in every single statement that you just made (I for one will not dispute you)

        Was there no other alternative or method to remove this man from power? None? No way without bombing cities or destroying infrastructure?

        Somehow even if I was oppressed by this man ( I was not), I would prefer that to having someone else come in and bomb my cities killing tens of thousands of my friends, family, neighbors and co-workers, men, women, children….just indiscriminate death in my country…..simply because you don’t like my President,King, Shah….etc….I am not entirely sure, but I don’t believe that I would have a real high opinion of those people.
        If their people needed to be liberated…their people would do just that…just as we in America did some 233 years ago.
        Sometimes we forget our own roots. WE asked for help and support in our struggle, but above all…WE rose up against our oppressors.

      • Thurman Marcum

        JoeH,

        Saddam was suck in to invading Kuwait,by Israel and George BushSr. Isreal was afraid of Saddam .You remember Bush kept saying he wouldn’t interfere in the affairs of the Arabs.What he said,were their own business.This gave Saddam the green light to invade.He fell into a trap,that he could not get out of.How could three men rape and murdered 1300 young girls and women ?That is a Moslem country.He would be out office no time flat.I don’t like Saddam Hussien,but this is a lie pure and simple.They are trying to get Bush off the hook and give justification for his actions.

        • Average Joe

          A lot of people don’t realize that Saddam Hussein Stopped taking US dollars for oil on the 13th of November, 2000. Once he did this, the US had to exchange US dollars for Euros in order to purchase the oil. This in turn started a decline of the dollar against the euro. This was causing a great financial problem for the US So, the best way to kill two birds with one stone (stabilize the dollar and the ability to get the oil with US dollars again from one of the richest deposits of oil in the region) and let’s not forget,war is big business.

          http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,998512,00.html

          • someone

            saddam was not perfect, i’m not trying to defend him or his methods. he did some good stuff and some bad stuff and i agree with that. as thurman said he had built hospitals and schools, roads, infrastructure, he made people work and build their country. you’ve never heard of this on cnn though. muslims have different mentality, especially uneducated people like most of iraqis were. yes, he did make public gallows for hundreds of people who opposed him as an example. do I agree with that? no. but who am i to decide? the story about him and his sons raping thousands of kids is just simply hard to believe, even though it could be true. honestly it sounds to me more like propaganda to make him look like a monster. maybe he was, we’ll never know.
            but the fact is that iraq became a prosperous country under his rule. he didn’t have strict muslim laws, women didn’t have to walk covered like in iran, even christians refuegees from iran were able to live normally.
            but even if we disregard all this, even if saddam was worse than hitler, united states had no rights to intervene. especially when we take into account that “reason” for war was not iraqis internal issues but weapon of mass destruction.
            the fact here is that usa, country of “rule of the law”, attacked another country under an unconfirmed suspicion of producing WMD and against all international regulations. united nations denied permission to attack until commission that was inspecting claims about WMD finishes their search. there was even no reason to suspect that iraq had intentions to use WMD even if they had it. on top of that, WMD had never been found discrediting usa millitary operation even further.

          • libertytrain

            to SOMEONE: You said “Saddam was not perfect, i’m not trying to defend him or his methods. he did some good stuff and some bad stuff and i agree with that. as thurman said he had built hospitals and schools, roads, infrastructure, he made people work and build their country. you’ve never heard of this on cnn though.”

            That sounds like what was said about Hitler – and the USA and the rest of the world looked away as – what was it – six million Jews, Catholics, Gypsies – were led to the gas chambers -

          • Average Joe

            libertytrain,

            That sounds like what was said about Hitler – and the USA and the rest of the world looked away as – what was it – six million Jews, Catholics, Gypsies – were led to the gas chambers -

            A little history:
            Many of those that resisted Hitler during his reign, survived the holocaust.
            Most of those that did not resist ended up in the gas chambers…because they did not take up arms against their oppressor. They allowed this to happen to themselves (just being logical here folks). Was it a terrible atrocity? Very much so. Could it have been prevented? I don’t know. But , I do know that if more of the people had stood in unison against their oppressor….many more would most likely have survived.
            How did we break free from our bonds from England? WE fought back against our oppressor.

          • someone

            hitler had on his agenda conquering the world. saddam did not.

          • Thurman Marcum

            someone,

            When the Soviet Union felled,no one went after these men that commited atrocities when they were in power, instead they hunted down Saddam and hang him.Some of these former Soviet leaders that commited these acts, retired and wrote books.It doesn’t make any sense.

        • Joe H.

          Marcum,
          Israel is not afraid of any of those sand box nations.Don’t ever think that. If Iran keeps on there will be commando runs and the nuke sites will cease to exist!!! Saddam was not suckered into anything! He wanted the oil and port that kuwait had to ship crude. As usual he wanted something somebody else had and this time he bullied somebody with big friends. Unfortunately the job on him was not finished by SR but by JR.

          • Thurman Marcum

            JoeH,

            One of our scientis was caught the other day selling highly classified sensitive technology too Israel.My great-grandmother on my mother’s side was jewish,I think it is down right silly to put the chosen people on a pedestal.Never trust any country,what is a friend today can be a enemy tomorrow.Israel has been caught numerous times spying.You attack liberals and you never ask yourself,what is the percentage of jews that belong to the left.Majority of the jews belong to the democratic party.Israel overnight would collapse with out our military assistance. We are the ones that is keeping them up.Read Deceptions and Myths Of The Bible.You may learn a lot from this brilliant scholar.Lloyd M.Graham

  • Anita Elicano

    It would be a Proud day if Congress and the President of the
    United States would stand up and be counted and enforce the
    immigration laws on the books.

  • Dale, Oklahoma

    I’ve never understood why the SPLC uses the word “Poverty”
    in their title. The “Southern” part I understand. They’re based
    Alabama ( where most of the smartest people in the U.S. are
    from I’m sure ). The “Law” part I understand. The “Center” part
    is a bit confusing since they’re so far to the left.

    But what’s REALLY confusing is the “Poverty” part of their title.

    Is poverty something they are against or for? I thought they
    were advocates of civil rights and against racism. Where they
    get their rabid opposition to faith and religion in the public
    sector is BEYOND me!?! They are also against hate, intolerance
    and discrimination. But that doesn’t seem to include their apparent
    hate, intolerance and discrimination against devout Christians.

    The fact that so much POVERTY still seems to exist, ESPECIALLY
    in states and cities governed by Democrats, you’d think that
    the Southern Poverty (?!?) Law Center would be trying to sue
    Democrat Mayors and Governors.

    Since so many ILLEGAL immigrants are poor and since the SPLC
    seems to be PRO-illegal immigration ( so much for lawyers who
    FOLLOW the law ), I guess that the SPLC is FOR or PRO “Poverty”. They’re just as racist as the KKK, but smarter about how they
    approach it.

  • someone

    @ccg

    my dad was in iraq in late 70′s – early 80′s. he saw transformation of the country under Saddam. those people are different and he knew how to rule them. one cannot just force democracy to uneducated people.
    the point is, they had their own government and no matter how good or bad it was USA had no right to enforce laws that they saw fit. I mean if USA didn’t show respect to other countries laws how can you expect that people from other countries to respect yours?
    I’m an immigrant myself and I love this country but I don’t like what it’s turning into. I agree that laws should be obeyed, but nonfunctional laws ought to be changed!
    wouldn’t you agree that some traffic laws should be changed as well? how about educating drivers (instead just giving DL’s away) and then raise the speed limit? how come that Germans have no speed limits on their autobahns while we have ridiculously low 55-65?
    the same applies to immigration. legal immigrants are struggling to get here and they never know when their rights will be revoked. government is letting people stay here illegally even issues documents without any problems. now you want to just kick them out. all of you know that it’s hardly possible. it’s just like underage drinking. it’s never gonna stop. therefore, better solution is needed. instead of mass deportation of 12 million people and then bringing another 12 million to replace them, why not let those who have roots here, speak english, have no criminal record and who are already assimilated, stay here and give them a chance?

    • Average Joe

      someone says:
      Again sir, well stated, you are very well spoken and make valid points.
      It is a shame that more “natural born Americans”, do not understand things as well as you apparently do.

    • ccg

      Someone,
      You said: the same applies to immigration. legal immigrants are struggling to get here and they never know when their rights will be revoked. government is letting people stay here illegally even issues documents without any problems. now you want to just kick them out. all of you know that it’s hardly possible. it’s just like underage drinking. it’s never gonna stop. therefore, better solution is needed. instead of mass deportation of 12 million people and then bringing another 12 million to replace them, why not let those who have roots here, speak english, have no criminal record and who are already assimilated, stay here and give them a chance?

      The only problem with that is most of the illegals haven’t even tried to learn English. Most of the illegals are not trying to assimilate into our society. They want us to change to suit them, but yet they came here because we are free and they think we are all rich.
      We have a lot of gangs that have come from Mexico and other countries
      too, that needs to be deported. These gangs are evil.
      The illegals come over and get food stamps, welfare, and free health care, as well as in many instances get help with housing. Most of them do not pay taxes.Sure they pay sales taxes, but we give them the money to buy the stuff to pay those taxes.

      A husband and wife can come over, but she goes by a different surname and she gets welfare. She has children and gets welfare for them too, while her husband is working we are subsidizing their whole families income. They are making out better than most of us who are citizens of this country who have paid in the system all of our lives.

      Another problem is the government wants to allow the illegals that they will make legal to bring over their family member too. Ok, if each one of the 12million just brings over 2 people then that will be 24 million along with the 12 million we already have and that is 36 million now that we will have to house and feed and take care of.

      You also said that it was like underage drinking, it’s never gonna stop so maybe we ought to do something else. What do you propose? To make it legal for any age to drink?

      We are a nation of laws, we need to enforce our laws.

      • someone

        I thought that I’ve made myself clear already. criminals, people unwilling to assimilate (which includes learning the language) and people unwilling to contribute should be removed.
        people of good moral character should be given a chance.
        drinking age should be lowered to 18 imho. at age of 18 one is considered mature enough to drive, marry and even die for his country, but not mature enough to drink. gimme a break please!

    • Joe H.

      Someone,
      The autobahns now have speed limits, it was in the news about two or three years ago! I believe it is now either 65 or 70 m.p.h.

      • ccg

        My daughter and her husband was stationed in Germany about 10 years ago and there were speed limits on the autobahns back then. Plus even back in the early 90′s when we were over there, there were speed limits. Plus we watched from the house how the autobahn would get just as congested as some of our own freeways do at peak times. You can only go as fast as the guy in front of you.

      • Average Joe

        Joe H.

        Autobahn (pronounced /ˈɔːtoʊbɑːn/; German: [ˈaʊtoːbaːn] (Speaker Icon.svg listen), plural Autobahnen) is the German word for a major high-speed road restricted to motor vehicles capable of driving at least 60 km/h (37 mph) and having full control of access, similar to a motorway or freeway in English-speaking countries.

        In most countries, it usually refers to the German autobahn specifically. The advisory speed limit (Richtgeschwindigkeit) of the German autobahn is 130 km/h (80 mph), but there is no general speed limit. Austrian and Swiss autobahns have general speed limits of 130 km/h (80 mph) and 120 km/h (75 mph), respectively.
        It is a only a recommended speed limit. It is not enforced ie. there are no sanctions for exceeding the limit.

        • someone

          there you go. thank you sir, that’s what i heard about autobahns as well. the point is, they have well functioning system, everyone obeys the law (turn signals, driving in right lane, unlike most americans) and nobody is doing anything illegal. they are not afraid of getting speeding tickets, everyone drives at comfortable speed and everyone is happy. usa speed limits are obviously not functioning well, judging by how many people end up paying speeding tickets. bump it up to 75-85 and I will obey the law I promise. until then, i’ll be taking my chance speeding.

          the problem i see in usa is too many laws. laws are good as long as they make sense and don’t compel. laws focused on enforcement and created to limit ones freedoms are the ones usually broken. you need proof? for many people it would be morally unacceptable to steal or kill or commit some other crime. yet those very same people don’t have any issues with speeding or entering bars and clubs on fake id’s.
          oppression of any kind usually has adverse effect.
          I wouldn’t oppose totally removing age limit for drinking. it doesn’t mean that everyone will start drinking at age 10. I come from a country with no age limit. i remember as a very little kid my dad would send me to the store to buy liquor when his friends would come over. as a high school student i was allowed to have small glass of wine for new years. first time I got drunk when I was 16. by the age of 21 I was done with drinking and ready to have productive life.
          I never broke any laws and I never got anyone in trouble because of my drinking.
          in usa however, people do the same, start drinking at age 16-18 with the only difference is they have to break laws. they use fake id’s, get other people in trouble for serving alcohol etc. also, i do not like showing my id to bouncers and store clerks. that’s attack on my privacy and only police should be allowed to check my id, with a good reason of course.
          my point is, age limit didn’t stop underage drinking. speed limits didn’t prevent speeding. immigration laws didn’t prevent immigration.
          you see where i’m going? those are things people do naturally and it’s foolish to try preventing them. people drink, people don’t sit in a car watching speedometer, people migrate. no matter what you do, people will keep doing it. that’s called freedom. in america it doesn’t exist anymore.

          • DaveH

            Someone,
            I too believe that people are inherently good. When people are deluged with laws it makes them less respectful of government. Once they lose that respect – watch out!
            The most rebellious teens I knew when I was young had the strictest parents. I believe people behave their best when they are free to make their own mistakes and responsible to pay for their own mistakes.

          • someone

            I couldn’t agree more. at least majority of people are goo., there will always be bad apples in society and laws should be focused on them.

          • Average Joe

            someone,
            It is the court system that is the problem. We have not had a Constitutional Court in the this country since 1938…That was the year that the Federal government officially declared bankruptcy. In 1934 FDR removed gold from circulation by executive order. Once this was done we had no more “real” money, what we had was called “colorable money” which meant that it had basically no value…just a medium of exchange. In order to have colorable money, they had to have a colorable jurisdiction. What they did was they merged Equity Law with Admiralty law and created what is called Statutory Jurisdiction, which is not recognized by the US Constitution. The system now operates under the Uniform Commercial Code (AKA U.C.C.)Notice the middle word…commercial…contracts.I suggest reading U.C.C. 1-103 and U.C.C. 1-207 They are some of your best weapons against the powers that be. The entire court system is based on contract law basically at this point….got a driver’s license?…you have a contract with the state.
            Do you have a Social Security Card?…you have a contract with the Federal Government. Got a credit card?…you have a contract with a bank. The entire system was set up to create….revenue for the Federal, State and Local coffers. It is a money game…how much money can we take from your wallet? If you have noticed, almost every case in court that is not a capital offense…usually involves…you guessed it…I a fine. It has gotten to the point that they even charge people for being in jail…after they sentenced them to go there ( in my area it costs $100 a day to sit in jail, that’s $700 a week…$3100 a month) and they have to pay it in order to get released from probation….after completing their sentences….which also costs $50 per visit, usually 2 times a month. Some of these people get out of jail with a $5000 to $15,000 bill…on top of doing their sentence and any restitution.
            Always remember, Every time you sign something…you are signing a contract of some kind…make sure you read it.

        • Joe H.

          Average,
          And when was the last time you were over there? My friend was just over there a few months ago and there are speed limits so I would do a fact check on your facts.

          • someone

            i know average joe. in my wallet i still have one of those old 5 dollar bills that says “will pay to the bearer on demand – 5 dollars”.
            that’s to remind me that cash is not “money”, just bank notes.

          • libertytrain

            Doing a little bit of Googling, because I was curious – sounds like speed limits are in force on some sections of the Autobahn – kind of like speeds are less in the city and then higher or none in the countryside. And it seems that there is talk of doing more with speed limits in the near future

          • Average Joe

            The last time I was there, was in the 1970=s. I took that from the internet…most recent update was March of 2009. As it stated there are “Advisory Limits”, but there is no sanctions for exceeding the limit.,..advisory means…it it a suggestion…like warning signs here. The speed limit on a road may be 50 mph…just before a curve, you see a square sign that says 40 mph…the speed limit is still 50mph…but the recommended speed is 40mph. So…yes there are limits, but the limits on the Autobahn are not enforced

        • Joe H.

          average,
          I spent three years over there 68 to 70. At that time the autobahn had no limits except your pedal. I saw terrific wrecks there as I flew army medivac. I have a lot of experience with it. Wurtzburg, Hanau Kaiserslautern, Sembach air base, the one place I was at was 11,000 feet above the valley in which landstulle was where the army hospital was . Excuse my spelling on the german towns it was almost 40 years ago.

    • eyeswideopen

      Someone, they now have speed limits, everyone is feeling the Gas crunch. Some european countries are paying $12.00 per gallon. That is the same reason we have limits. I lived in Texas when we were flipping the Fed’s off about the highway speed being lowered. We didn’t need the highway funds at that time, however, we finally gave in and lowered it to 55, which in Texas talk was really 75. LOL.

      • Joe H.

        Eyes
        in Michigan as you go from Ohio to Michigan it goes from 55mph to 70 mph they’ve had that for about ten years now thats on 75 smooth sailing. Ohio 90 is 65 and the turnpike is 65 also. Most, not all but most cops will allow you five mph over but don’t depend on it if you see them!!

  • april

    Come to think of it, I haven’t seen many homeless Illegally. I’ve met a few and some even worked and lived with me, for a short time. One of them said, with a straight face, steal something small, get caught, go to jail. Cause the food is good and jails are like camp……

    • DaveH

      So true April. I worked on a temp job with an ex-con. He was a very hard worker, and basically a very good man. But he had an immense chip on his shoulder, so he had an inclination to start fights which landed him in jail often. He told me he really didn’t mind prison life, but he was trying to be good so that his family didn’t suffer.

  • april

    Answer to ontime. If we didn’t have all these community organizing groups like Acron, Apollo, and all they want is more power. You might be able to argue your point to these Libs, and radicals. Read the 10-13 rules of radicals by Saul Alusinky. Amazing it sounds just like obama barking his trash…….

  • april

    Listen up everyone. Any Gov’t that can give you anything you want, or they think we need. Can just as easily take it all away. And just like 1930′s Germany we as a country might even vote for it. That power grab is all cloaked in unseen political agendas.

  • someone

    thank you Average Joe, I wish there were more Americans like you.

    I’m surprised how some people just take things for granted without even trying to think about it.
    NunJoBizNess said: “ur tax dollars will be going to empty HOTELS to house illegals…..nice.”
    this is completely out of contest. it doesn’t mean that illegals will be staying at hotels and receiving full service all together with continental breakfast, heated pool and jacuzzi. the reason for this proposal was SAVING tax payers dollars, because using maximum security jails for detention of non-criminal undocumented immigrants is not economically reasonable. maximum security jail costs MORE than converted hotel with less security. besides, I’m not sure about you, but I’d rather see some other, more dangerous people behind the bars.

    other thing is border security. borders cannot be sealed. period. unless all 303,645,673 americans line up at the border, heavily armed with shoot to kill orders.

    the only way to solve this problem once and for all is to treat CAUSE not the SYMPTOMS. illegal immigration is just a symptom caused by inadequate immigration laws. that’s why immigration laws need to be changed. it’s in human nature to migrate. that’s why all of us are here, have you forgotten it already? it is just greed that makes people want to lock everyone else out, so they can enjoy american way of life. why humans can’t just erase borders? why do we need borders? to protect ourselves from poverty coming from third world? do we really think that we’re so much better, that we deserve better than those people? just because you were born in this country doesn’t make you any better than anyone else. I bet many of you would’ve changed their minds if somehow they were born in mexico instead.

    why do I have this feeling that next comment is going to be: “which part of illegal you don’t understand”

    • Average Joe

      someone says:,
      Ha!…fooled you, just another Kudos for speaking the truth and doing so plainly, so that anyone with even half of a brain can understand.That is one of the main problems in this country, everyone takes their freedoms for granted, without any real understanding of how they got those freedoms in the first place.
      The next big problem is the deliberate dumbing down of the population by the public education system, the Mainstream media, and the fact that most Americans can’t be bothered to do their own research and find the truth for themselves.
      We have become a nation of “must have it now”. We cannot save to buy what we want, we instead borrow, borrow, borrow…which BTW is a big part of the of the economic meltdown. We hear that the national debt is 11 trillion and think…wow…that’s a lot. What we don’t realize, is that is the governments share of the debt…add the actual debt of the people and the number is closer to 45 Trillion dollars….but we still don’t get it and continue fall for the same tactics and lunacy that brought us to this point in the first place. We obviously ….do not learn from our previous follies.
      Please keep up the good work of informing people of the truth. We may not help everyone to find the truth, but each one that “wakes up” becomes another tool in the quest to fix this nation.

    • Joe H.

      someone,
      there are countries all over the world that have sealed borders. Most are longer borders than our southern. The only reason the border isn’t sealed is it benefits the democrats to keep it open to get more voters for them. Don’t even try to tell me that illegals can’t vote. Those records aren’t even checked to the level they should be. It would be an administrative nightmare. All the illegals Joe Arapo arrests have broken the law and I don’t mean the immigration laws, even though they have that also. So what’s Napolitanos answer? get all over his hind end and make him leave them alone under penalty of the federal law!!! Arrest our people when they commit a crime like assault but don’t arrest the illegals that do. California is going BANKRUPT! bankrupt. and the government of that state keeps right on welcoming more and more illegals in. These are non producers in terms of higher taxes. More people as non producers and less taxes = bankruptcy!!!!!

  • Truth

    Undocumented immigrants paying more taxes than you think!!

    http://www.immigrationpolicy.org/

    http://www.immigrationpolicy.org/images/File/factcheck//EconomicsofCIRFullDoc.pdf

    Eight million Undocumented immigrants pay Social Security, Medicare and income taxes. Denying public services to people who pay their taxes is an affront to America’s bedrock belief in fairness. But many “pull-up-the-drawbridge” politicians want to do just that when it comes to Undocumented immigrants.

    The fact that Undocumented immigrants pay taxes at all will come as news to many Americans. A stunning two thirds of Undocumented immigrants pay Medicare, Social Security and personal income taxes.

    Yet, nativists like Congressman Tom Tancredo, R-Colo., have popularized the notion that illegal aliens are a colossal drain on the nation’s hospitals, schools and welfare programs — consuming services that they don’t pay for.

    In reality, the 1996 welfare reform bill disqualified Undocumented immigrants from nearly all means tested government programs including food stamps, housing assistance, Medicaid and Medicare-funded hospitalization.

    The only services that illegals can still get are emergency medical care and K-12 education. Nevertheless, Tancredo and his ilk pushed a bill through the House criminalizing all aid to illegal aliens — even private acts of charity by priests, nurses and social workers.

    Potentially, any soup kitchen that offers so much as a free lunch to an illegal could face up to five years in prison and seizure of assets. The Senate bill that recently collapsed would have tempered these draconian measures against private aid.

    But no one — Democrat or Republican — seems to oppose the idea of withholding public services. Earlier this year, Congress passed a law that requires everyone who gets Medicaid — the government-funded health care program for the poor — to offer proof of U.S. citizenship so we can avoid “theft of these benefits by illegal aliens,” as Rep. Charlie Norwood, R-Ga., puts it. But, immigrants aren’t flocking to the United States to mooch off the government.

    According to a study by the Urban Institute, the 1996 welfare reform effort dramatically reduced the use of welfare by undocumented immigrant households, exactly as intended. And another vital thing happened in 1996: the Internal Revenue Service began issuing identification numbers to enable illegal immigrants who don’t have Social Security numbers to file taxes.

    One might have imagined that those fearing deportation or confronting the prospect of paying for their safety net through their own meager wages would take a pass on the IRS’ scheme. Not so. Close to 8 million of the 12 million or so illegal aliens in the country today file personal income taxes using these numbers, contributing billions to federal coffers.

    No doubt they hope that this will one day help them acquire legal status — a plaintive expression of their desire to play by the rules and come out of the shadows. What’s more, aliens who are not self-employed have Social Security and Medicare taxes automatically withheld from their paychecks.

    Since undocumented workers have only fake numbers, they’ll never be able to collect the benefits these taxes are meant to pay for. Last year, the revenues from these fake numbers — that the Social Security administration stashes in the “earnings suspense file” — added up to 10 percent of the Social Security surplus.

    The file is growing, on average, by more than $50 billion a year. Beyond federal taxes, all illegals automatically pay state sales taxes that contribute toward the upkeep of public facilities such as roads that they use, and property taxes through their rent that contribute toward the schooling of their children.

    The non-partisan National Research Council found that when the taxes paid by the children of low-skilled immigrant families — most of whom are illegal — are factored in, they contribute on average $80,000 more to federal coffers than they consume. Yes, many illegal migrants impose a strain on border communities on whose doorstep they first arrive, broke and unemployed.

    To solve this problem equitably, these communities ought to receive the surplus taxes that federal government collects from immigrants. But the real reason border communities are strained is the lack of a guest worker program.

    Such a program would match willing workers with willing employers in advance so that they wouldn’t be stuck for long periods where they disembark while searching for jobs. The cost of undocumented aliens is an issue that immigrant bashers have created to whip up indignation against people they don’t want here in the first place.

    With the Senate having just returned from yet another vacation and promising to revisit the stalled immigration bill, politicians ought to set the record straight: Illegals are not milking the government. If anything, it is the other way around.

    The Undocumented Immigrants pay the exact same amount of taxes like you and me when they buy Things, rent a house, fill up gas, drink a beer or wine, buy appliances, play the states lottery and mega millions . Below are the links to just a few sites that will show you exactly how much tax you or the Undocumented Immigrant pays , so you see they are NOT FREELOADERS, THEY PAY TAXES AND TOLLS Exactly the same as you, Now if you take out 10% from your states /city Budget what will your city/state look like financially ?

    Stop your folly thinking , you are wise USE YOUR WISDOM to see the reality. They pay more taxes than you think, Including FEDERAL INCOME TAX using a ITN Number that is given to them by the IRS, Social Security Taxes and State taxes that are withheld form their paychecks automatically.

    Taxes, paid by You & the Undocumented are the same in each state check your state : http://www.taxadmin(DOT)org/fta/rate/sales.html

    GAS Taxes paid by you & the Undocumented are the same. Go to and check out your states tax; http://www.gaspricewatch(DOT)com/usgastaxes.asp

    Cigarette Taxes paid by you & the Undocumented are the same, check this out in : http://www.taxadmin(DOT)org/fta/rate/cigarett.html

    Clothing Sales Taxes, are the same paid by you & the Undocumented Immigrant; http://en.wikipedia(DOT)org/wiki/Sales_taxes_in_the_United_States

    City Taxes, are the same paid by you or the Undocumented, since he pays rent and the LANDLORD pays the city : http://www.town-usa(DOTcom/statetax/statetaxlist.html

    Beer Taxes, are the same paid by you or the Undocumented: http://www.taxadmin(DOT)org/fta/rate/beer.html

    TAX DATA : http://www.taxfoundation(DOT)org/taxdata/show/245.html

    • Palin12

      Referring to illegal immigrants as “undocumented workers” is like referring to drug dealers as “undocumented pharmacists”.

      • someone

        elaborate please.
        “undocumented immigrant” is a legal term weather you like it or not. “illegal immigrant” is a term invented by hate groups to demonize people.
        people screaming that all current laws should be enforced while trying to change legal terminology don’t have too much credibility.
        if you really want all laws enforced, you might want to think twice. would you like a bunch of heavily armed police officers knocking on your door in the middle of the night to check if you have a donkey sleeping in your bathtub? hey it’s a law, we have to enforce it!

        • ccg

          Well then, its been a term that’s been around for decades. Before that they were called Wetbacks.
          Don’t get mad at me either, I am just the messenger, I didn’t start it.

        • April

          And the term “documented workers” is a term made up by politically correct cowards who are afraid of hurting intrudors feelings.

          • April

            woops, “undocumented workers” that is. I should have proofread b/4 sending.

          • someone

            and “illegal immigrant” is a term made by haters. now it’s been changed. things change. if you’re so much against changes, why don’t we just roll back immigration laws to the beginning of the last century? go through ellis island, get your inspection done, pay few dollars and you’re admitted. problem solved, no more “illegal immigrants”.
            obviously, immigration system is broken. is it so hard to understand?
            i can break it down further for those who still don’t understand:
            early 20th century – simple immigration procedure = “no illegal immigrants”
            beginning of 21th century – complicated and discriminatory immigration policies = “illegal” population thrives
            2009, possible solution – change immigration laws = no more “illegal immigrants”
            and please try to understand that all of you born americans come from immigrant families. your ancestors came here legally for a simple reason, all they had to do was to say “i want to be an american”.
            now you settled down and decided that you want to keep this country to yourself. you’ve forgotten where you came from.
            I’m not saying that what you’re doing is not legal. of course it is, this is your country, you can make any laws that you want.
            the question is: is it moral? do you believe in god? just read the back of a dollar bill, there is the answer. and don’t get me wrong on this one, i’m actually an atheist.

        • Joe H.

          Someone,
          No, it’s a correct term. They are here illegally, you can’t argue that. Even the government says they are here illegally. They are “immigrants in the fact that they were not born here. therefore they are illegal immigrants. Now the term Alien also is correct as in they are alien to these parts and were not born here. therefore the term illegal aliens is also correct! See above for the illegal part.

          • someone

            I could be wrong on this one, it makes sense. anyway, they are undocumented as well, because they don’t have documents.
            either way, i’ll never accept refering to them as “criminals”.
            imho, there is a difference between hungry person who steals food and a bank robber. you wouldn’t let hungry person starve to death, would you?

            my solution is simple: criminal illegals – kick them out, all others – give them another chance. simultaneously take control over the border, but don’t seal it. sealing the border will make more people try to come illegally in absence of any other option.

      • Average Joe

        Palin12.
        careful, that’s pretty catchy….lmao

    • Joe H.

      Hey Truth,
      If these workers are only doing minimum wage jobs and work no one else wants to do, then how can they pay so much in taxes, social security, and sales tax? And 50 billion? by 12 million workers? That’s 41000 dollars a piece. I don’t think so!!! Even if I’m off by 10% it’s still 4100 dollars and a person earning 50,000 a year doesn’t pay that much!!!
      give me a break!

      • eyeswideopen

        Joe, person making 50k doesn’t pay 4100? no they pay about 14,000 in taxes. Roughly 28%.

    • eyeswideopen

      Truth, thanks for the info, if I would have put it up, they wouldn’t have believed me.

      Most people don’t want to admit that their politicians want the 50 Billion and they don’t want the hot potato created by changing the laws. To Bush’s credit he tried to get immigration reform done for three years and his party members refused to address the issue.

  • someone

    @Average Joe
    I would have to disagree sir. Illegal immigrants are responsible for national debt. and all other debts for that matter.
    Just kidding :-)
    well, I guess demagogues are giving up on this board. or maybe they just have to go to work, make some money to make another payment on their credit card bill.

    @Truth
    It’s a well known fact. it’s just hard to make believe those who don’t want to believe it.

    some more interesting facts for those who still don’t believe that our immigration system is broken:
    did you know that indianapolis speedway was removed from formula 1 calendar mainly because fans from around the world were not able to get their visas! weather you like F1 or not, that’s a big business and a lots of money lost. add that to our economic collapse tab.
    also, one of the reasons why chicago lost olympics was, guess what, potential problem with visas for visitors.

    it may surprise some of you, but getting visas for usa can be a major pain sometimes. even if it’s just a tourist visa.
    I just had a first hand experience that I’d like to share: my good friend is getting married so she tried to bring her brother over for the ceremony from overseas. usa embassy denied him visa because of “not enough proof that he will come back”! I guess every potential visitor is presumably coming here to stay or commit terrorist act, and it’s up to them to prove the opposite.
    let’s just add that person in this story own a house in his homeland, has his own business and it was highly unlikely that he was gonna abandon all that just to come to usa and be a dishwasher or farm worker. still, that wasn’t enough proof for usa immigration to let him attend sisters wedding.
    go figure.

    • DaveH

      Problem was Someone, that he probably didn’t appear to be someone that would vote for Democrats.

    • Average Joe

      someone. Ok, now that you gave me cardiac arrest……lol. I did manage to get past that first paragraph and survive…hehe.
      Again, keep up the good work.

    • Joe H.

      Someone,
      Yes,Yes, all the immigrants that come here do so to become farm workers or fast food servers!!!!

      • someone

        that doesn’t change the fact that person didn’t get his visa for no valid reason. and that’s only one example. please tell me how a mortal soul from some small country can get a permission to visit united states? one can have money and ties to his homeland and still be inadmissible. that needs to be changed!

    • eyeswideopen

      Someone, go check why Pres. Regan granted amnesty to approx 3 million during his admin. 1986….. we needed money, and our money was being sprewn over 37 Federal agencies in the National Drug effort. The spending for drug enforcement tripled from it’s 1981 levels. Actually Regan started NAFTA, but it was called The North American Accord., Bush came in behind him and changed the name to NAFTA. This was supposed to let us dump our farm goods cheaply in Mexico, which we did, thus causing their economy to take a crap, as their farmers couldn’t compete with us. It also caused our industries to lose over 3.6 million jobs. We needed a cheap tax base, so Regan granted amnesty to 3 million. By the time he left office the Federal deficit from us borrowing money rose from 700 Billion to 3 trillion. Which Regan stated ” Was the biggest disappointment of my Presidency”. This is all info you can find for yourselfs under his bio.

  • Robert

    Solution to illegal boarder crossing. Place thousands of toll booths along the border and charge a fee of 10 cents. This will definitely slow down the number of illegal aliens crossing the boarder. It worked in Blazzing Saddles didn’t it?

    • Average Joe

      Robert,
      Hi there, I am a currently unemployed Land Surveyor, got any job openings?….I’m in….lol…sorry I pictured the scene in the movie…I just had to ask….

    • eyeswideopen

      Robert, I would like to think that fences, work,but history shows us otherwise. Berlin Wall. Wall of China, etc. the human spirit is really remarkable. I think we have more high tech way and trying to maintain a wall of that size will be very costly when it starts to deteriorate. We are smart enough to use something else other than a 20 ft high wall.

      • Average Joe

        eyeswideopen,
        I think you missed what Robert was saying…In the movie “Blazing Saddles) (one of Mel Brooks’ Funniest movies ever IMHO), they wanted to slow down a incoming army of bad guys…so they set up a tollbooth in the middle of the desert…. Instead of just riding around the tollbooth…they all lined up and went through…one at a time…slowing them down considerably…absolutely too funny. If you have never seen Blazing Saddles…please do…Mel Brooks will make you see and laugh at the stupidity around you…he puts issues into perspective. If we can’t laugh at ourselves and our own shortcomings….we have become a sad excuse for people….Politically Correct?…Bah…Humbug……practicing for Christmas….lol

        • eyeswideopen

          Got me, haven’t seen that movie. Now I see his humor.

          • Average Joe

            eyeswideopen
            Please do see it ASAP…I want to know how long it takes your ribs to stop hurting from the laughing…..Sorry I am over-exuberant when I comes to Mel Brooks, I own all of his movies.the man is just a comic genius.

  • Lee

    Do you research & find what FAIR founder JOHN TANTON thinks about the Hispanic/latino Race, the Jews & the Holocaust, the catholic church & also search for his ties to supremacist groups around the world!

    ALL ABOUT RACE!

    • American Citizen

      What’s that got to do with illegality? He has no say otherwise as to who comes into this country.

  • ccg

    Average Joe

    You really do have some good ideas. But reading your posts if someone doesn’t agree with you you have become arrogant, and argumentative.
    You made a comment about if you were in Congress what you would do. On the face of it you would normally be the person I would even vote for, but the problem is after getting to know a certain side of you, you think your word is the final authority on the subject. You won’t listen to other people’s concerns. We already have too many in Congress with that very attitude now.
    I voiced a concern and you chose to attack me because you didn’t agree. You seem quick to argue with anyone that you do not agree with.

    Your Words:
    Some people just don’t get it and you are one of them. It would be pointless to argue with you on the subject since your mind is already made up and nothing I could possibly say is gonna change that. You have what I call the “It’s my opinion and it’s very true” syndrome.

    Well, AJ this is what I think about you. You have demonstrated this yourself.

    Again, more of your words:
    Again, no facts, just rhetoric. You have proven my point though. It is pointless to argue with you. You take is “take the fight to them, before they bring the fight to us”. I guess next we should start locking people up because they may sometime in the future…commit a crime? The same principle applies in both instances.

    You put words in my mouth. I said nothing about taking the fight to them before they bring the fight to us, they did bring the fight to us. Several times. We did like any law enforcement would do and go after them. But there are none so blind as those who refuse to see the truth.
    We also did try to do the negotiations thing, even using the U N but to no avail.

    I could go a lot deeper into why I know I am right, and you would just have something else to say about it, so lets just agree to disagree and let it go for now.

    You went to Viet Nam and came back to a hostile nation. For that I am sorry. You did not deserve what was dished out to you by your fellow Americans. There were a lot of us back then that still did consider you a hero for answering the call of your country and not running to Canada.

    • Average Joe

      ccg,

      You put words in my mouth.
      ccg says:
      October 12, 2009 at 9:31 am
      Sure we have roads that have holes in them from wear and tear, but nothing like it would be if it had been blown up like other countries do that have been in war. We are fortunate in this country to not have had to endure this, all because we do send our Military to ‘them’, and not let ‘them’ come to us….your words…not mine.

      Excuse me? These are Radical Islamists. They do not have to have a reason to hate us. They hate us because we do not believe in their god. I used a small g as their god is a false god.
      again your words…
      just because you don’t believe in “their god”, does not give you the right to belittle them or their choice (how do you know if it is a false god…have you died and come back? (just being logical here, not being sarcastic so please don’t take it that way)

      even if as you are illuminating at that ‘we caused it ourselves because we are such a bad people’, it is now too late, the damage is done and us bowing down to them will not work and they will not rest until we are all dead. They want to take over this country and make us all either turn to Islam or die.
      These radical Islamists are bullies. You can not run from a bully. You must stand up to them. Again your words, not mine

      Who did they bully?I don’t recall Iraq or Afghanistan attacking the US or anyone else for that matter ( it was a small group of “terrorists” yet to be identified legally). I do on the other hand recall us attacking them.

      I happen to agree with the article, its you that I don’t agree with. Cowards have always been with us and I can see they are among us now.
      again your words
      Who got offended and started with name calling?

      Look , I have no personal conflict with you. You are entitled to your beliefs (no matter what the may be) and I am entitled to mine.
      Quite frankly, what got under my skin was being called a coward by someone that has not lived my life and has no idea what I have been through. I still have refrained from calling anyone here names, regardless of what I feel about them. I simply pointed out that some people are predisposed (based on their upbringing) to believe one thing or another and that no amount persuasion from another person will change their minds.If you are not one of those people, I apologize to you. I am here just like everyone else trying to put forth my views and beliefs. I don’t ask you or anyone else to believe me on face value, but rather that you do you own research and reach your own conclusions. So, I am offering the olive branch to you sir in hopes that we might debate in a more civil manner in the future. Have a great day and may your creator bring blessings to you and your family.

      • eyeswideopen

        Average, they call me a Troll, as I don’t buy the radical view. I have noticed there is a new civility since your arrival. Some here seem to forget that this country belongs to all, and all don’t have to belive exactly alike. When you don’t believe the same, it doesn’t mean that you have lost the right to be an American. After being on this site, I have definately decided to become registered as an Independent as I really don’t have the desire to be a Republican any longer. I want to thank you for such interesting dialoge and look forward to reading your posts.

        • Average Joe

          eyeswideopen says:,
          Again, Thank you so much. I am glad to express my views with anyone at anytime. Some of the people think that I am a little overbearing here, I do not intend to be though. People think differently, depending on which side of their brain is dominate (left or right) I am a right brain thinker..while majority of people (around 70%) are left brain oriented. We learn differently, I tend to learn better from hands on experience…or subjects that really peak my interests rather than technical manuals and such. Most children are taught by left brain teachers…so when someone like me comes along, they don’t understand why I have a higher IQ than average but am lagging behind in many areas…they say now that people like me are ADD….we aren’t ADD…We just learn differently than most. Right brain people tend to see the “Big Picture” first and then work completely backwards through the process. In math, I can see the correct answer..but sometimes I can’t explain how I got the answer.
          So, for everyone out there, I am not trying to be combative with anyone, I am just seeing the big picture…without realizing that everyone doesn’t see the big picture…from my point of view…for this or any further indiscretions: My most humble apologies to everyone.

        • Average Joe

          eyeswideopen,
          I did want to point out, that you may want to keep your party affiliation. I am not sure about the laws in your state, but in many states you cannot vote in the primary if you are not registered as a Dem. or Repub. I am registered in my state as one or the other for that very reason….that’s how we got Ron Paul on our state ballot…the primary.
          Besides… being registered as one or the other…gives them a false sense of support…keep the scoundrels on their toes. What kills me is when I hear someone say ” I like his viewpoint on the issues,but he can’t win, so I am voting for so and so”…Guess what people….of course he can’t win…simply because you are voting for so and so…. they can’t win…if we don’t vote for them!
          Screw the lesser of two evils theory…vote for the person that most holds your values…whether you think they can win or not…at least make the effort, who knows…we could be surprised.

  • Joe H.

    ccg,
    I went to RVN myself and I don’t blame anything bad in my life on the way I was treated on my return. The first time I was thanked for my service was about 5 years ago when a woman noticed my jacket and patches and asked me if I had served in RVN. When I answered yes she thanked me and I just stood there dumbfounded for about 15 minutes in a mist. That was a good experience I knew there were some good and some very good people in this country. I would go again tomorrow if my nation asked me to, I love her that much. I guess a lot of liberals here would call that stupid but when did I ever let that bother me? Not when I came back and sure not now!

    • April

      Your service and attitude are very much appreciated. Thank you and God bless you!

    • ccg

      Well, I’m gonna tell you again. Thank you for going over to serve your country with honor. You are definitely a hero, and a gentleman.
      May God bless you.

    • American Citizen

      I, too, thank you for your service to our country. I don’t care where or when someone served in the military, we owe them our gratitude. Freedom isn’t free and I, for one, am grateful for those who are willing to give their all for our freedom.

      As for liberals, it is said that most are liberal until the age of 30, after which most become conservative. If they remain liberal after that, they are too stupid to pull their heads out of the sand in my estimation.

      • Average Joe

        I was raised in very pro party Democratic family…I woke up at the age of 27…that was when I found out that much of what I had been taught…was either a outright lie or at the very least…half truths. I have followed Ron Paul from the 80′s up to date. He has been the only Person in Congress who is not afraid to tell it like it is. In my lifetime, I have seen maybe 8 honest politicians…or at least…somewhat honest.

  • http://www.fair.org/index.php Azay

    What you want to look at is the other FAIR (Fairness and Accuracy In Reporting): http://www.fair.org/index.php

  • J W

    illegal – has the definition changed or am i a racist for asking? sick of the same old race card being played. seems if you don’t agree with the current political agenda and nothing else can be found, then you are a racist or radical. i am neither, i am an AMERICAN just like all my brothers and sisters (all races and religions) that are fed up with the crap being fed to us. this is the first time that i have ever been involved in this kind of forum, but want you to know that there are millions more where i am coming from and we are saying get off the race and radical BS and focus on what is happening to our constitutional liberties. Until you open your eyes and become color blind the politicians are going to steal our country choice by choice while you argue and call each other names because of skin pigment or religious differences. go to a blood bank and look around, pretty sure all of the blood there is going to be red. why don’t we just try working as one people and look at what is going on around us while we bicker over things that are going to be pointless if we do not get it together soon.
    the only apology that i offer is, sorry it took so long for me personally to stand up and say ‘enough is enough’, get over it and do something about it, whining and insulting each other is not going to get it done. go vote while you can, does not matter whether you are republican, democrat, or independent. your commitment needs to be to America and not to ‘the party’. we really need to ‘clean house’ in Washington while we still can. united we can stand, divided we will fall.

    God bless American and all the fine young men and women giving and willing to give their life for You and me, it is our responsibility to make them proud.

    • Joe H.

      JW,
      Yeah, Flip the house!!!! no returns!! Been there done that don’t do it again!!!!

  • Average Joe

    ccg,
    I guess that what I have been trying to explain is this. Over the years, our government has staged several false flag operations against not only other nations, but against the American people as well.
    We tend to jump on the bandwagon, hellbent for revenge for whatever reasoning, without having all of the facts to support our action/reaction.
    For a little relevance on the subject, look into these past events from our history.I tried to put up links but it refused to post.There is a wealth of information out there to show that there was a lot more going on than what we were told. A little historical outline can go a long way toward affecting out Action/Reaction choices. I hope that a few become more enlightened after doing the research.

    What was known about Pearl Harbor, before the event?

    CIA over throw of the Shah of Iran 1953

    Operation Northwoods.

    Gulf of Tonkin Incident

    Waco and Ruby Ridge

    Who Bombed the U.S. World Trade Center? — 1993

    World Trade Center 2001

  • gail lightfoot

    OK. Now is the time to get up, walk enxt door and meet your neighbor. repeat until you and they have formed a common understanding. Then gather together the neighbors who are with you and meet once a week to discuss the problems you see. Face to face rants will be strong at first but as time goes by and you see that YOU ARE NOT ALONE anymore, everyone will calm down. That is when you start YOUR research to find the candidates for 2010 who will sign a pledge your group agrees is the best Oath of Office. Then GET THOSE GOOD CANDIDATES on the ballot and help them reach the voters. The only way to take this nation back is to get out in the streets in support of good honest trustworthy candidates for public office. Take a vow not to vote for a single candidate who runs a single prime time tv or radio ad. Vote for the candidate YOU know YOU can trust. Be thankful if you live in one of the very few districts with such an elected official in place. Most of us don’t but we can be that person or support than person and we can FLIP THE HOUSE in 2010!

    • Average Joe

      gail lightfoot,
      You are absolutely correct….it starts right here in your neighborhoods and builds outward. People need to stop relying on the National Government for their “perceived needs”. Start thinking local….local economy, local infrastructure, local business…..freedom and liberty, starts at home…one person at a time…one neighborhood…one city….one county….one state….Remember…we don’t live in the District of Columbia….we live in our local area….

      • Joe H.

        Gail,
        do that in most average sized cities and all it will sometimes get you is a bullet!!!

  • phxgeo

    We who live in a border State know VERY well the effects and damage by ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS. First and foremqwost they are LAW BREAKERS. Secondly they bring the corruption of their society and plant it here in our Country. I do not care which Latain American or Asian Country they come from. They have all a value system more corrupt than ours. At least that was the case BO. You need to read this:
    From the L. A. Times
    1. 40% of all workers in L. A. County ( L. A. County has 10.2 million people)are working for cash and not paying taxes. This is because they are predominantly illegal immigrants working without a green card.
    2. 95% of warrants for murder in Los Angeles are for illegal aliens.
    3. 75% of people on the most wanted list in Los Angeles are illegal aliens.
    4. Over 2/3 of all births in Los Angeles County are to illegal alien Mexicans on Medi-Cal, whose births were paid for by taxpayers.
    5. Nearly 35% of all inmates in California detention centers are Mexican nationals here illegally.
    6. Over 300,000 illegal aliens in Los Angeles County are living in garages.
    7. The FBI reports half of all gang members in Los Angeles are most likely illegal aliens from south of the border.
    8 Nearly 60% of all occupants of HUD properties are illegal.
    9. 21 radio stations in L. A. are Spanish speaking.
    10.. In L. A. County 5.1 million people speak English, 3.9 million speak Spanish.
    (There are 10.2 million people in L. A. County . )

    (All 10 of the above facts were published in the Los Angeles Times)

    Less than 2% of illegal aliens are picking our crops, but 29% are on welfare. Over 70% of the United States ‘ annual population growth(and over 90% of California , Florida , and New York ) results from immigration. 29% of inmates in federal prisons are illegal aliens .

    We are fools for letting this continue

    • someone

      @phxgeo
      I do agree that those people break laws. however, in the given situation they do not have a lot of choice, that’s why laws should be changed.
      now, try to read la times between the lines:
      1. 60% illegal aliens PAY taxes. the others cannot do it because they don’t have a green card. maybe they would’ve paid have they had one.
      2. it is 95% of all murderers, not 95% of illegal alien population. the devil is in details.
      3. see number 2.
      4. some of those taxpayers are illegal aliens. see number 1.
      5. 35% are mexican. not all mexicans are illegals nor all illegals are mexicans.
      6. living in garages is a crime?
      7. again, see number 2 and 3.
      8. 40% of them are not illegal
      9. there is nothing wrong with speaking spanish. still, government agencies should endorse english as the only official language, i agree with that. make those people learn english.
      10. see number 9.

      and the last paragraph: 71% of american citizens are on welfare! something has to be done to make lazy people work. this has nothing to do with immigration though. 98% of american citizens are picking crops. did someone mention illegals taking jobs away?

      even if all illegals get deported, problems with lazy people living on taxpayers account and criminals will still be there. the same will happen if only criminal illegals get deported. i say, let’s just deport ALL criminals, citizens and immigrants, make lazy ones work and legalize remaining millions of hard working people.

    • eyeswideopen

      Phxego, Sir, this rumor has been running around since, 2006. A reader that posted it, stated that it came from Polipundit. However there’s a hint, INS was not in operation during 2006, it was disbanded in 2003. If you go to this link and read to the end, you will see how they proved that it was a hoax. http://www.freepublic.com/focus/bloggers/1738432/posts

      I knew about this hoax, as my niece was doing a term paper and was about to use the stats when my brother-in-law read the entire blog a couple of years ago. I hope the link works.

  • Joe H.

    PHXGEO,
    Finally, somebody gets the facts straight!!!! “Someone” should look at them. We can not go on this way!!! It would be cheaper to annex Mexico!!! At least the food and other costs are lower there for the locals. I for one, and believe me when I say I’m not alone, can’t go on paying 30 to 40% of my money to the government to take care of these people!!! I can’t afford it if I want to retire and be able to eat! Do any of you realize there are citizens of the U.S. that are too old to work and living on fixed incomes that are choosing between food and medicines? Where is all of your righteous indignation for them? Why do I hear no one here concerned about them? Yet you want to keep on taking more and more in till we can’t even help OUR OWN???
    Give Me A Break!!!!

  • someone

    also, no one really tried to find osama bin laden. they found saddam in some cave in the middle of nowhere, but couldn’t find osama. give me a break!

    • libertytrain

      to someone – re Saddam – he was on a farm as I remembered, not a cave -
      “BAGHDAD, Iraq, Dec. 14 – A force of 600 American soldiers captured Saddam Hussein in a raid on Saturday night on an isolated farm near Tikrit, American military officials said today. The former Iraqi president was found, haggard and disoriented but alive, hiding at the bottom of an 8-foot-deep hole.

      Mr. Hussein was armed with a pistol at the time of his capture, but he offered no resistance and not one shot was fired in the operation, military officials said.”

      • someone

        my bat, it wasn’t cave, it was some hole in the ground. the thing is he was “disoriented” which is very suspicious. I remember back than I was thinking that all that must have been staged. they probably arrested him somewhere else, drugged him and then set u the stage “in the hole” for media, to show how saddam was hiding in a hole like a rat. they wanted to embarrass him in front of the world. and they did a good job.

        • someone

          my bad, not “bat”…

        • libertytrain

          Staged? – much like landing on the moon, right? I’ve been hearing this “staged” word since I was old enough to be watching the moon-landing and realized that whenever people can’t quite grasp something, have no understanding of the word possibility or real/genuine experience with life, they have used the word “staged” ———– It’s kind of sad.

        • keith

          who cares HOW,the maniac is GONE!

        • Joe H.

          Someone,
          Please, please give me a break!! Enough with the theory stuff will you?
          Saddam Hussein was the worst type of scum there ever was in the past 50 years other than Pol Pot!! If he was disorientated, it was from hiding like a rat for 3 or 4 days in a hole in the ground. I don’t mean to belittle your posts, but not everyone is a good Christian!!

  • fcgiii

    Thanks!(FAIR) for your Patriotic web site and the work you do, Please don’t let us down. Most of the posting’s I have seen today, reassures me that their are alot of American’s that still know what being an American stands for and what makes us different from the rest of the world. Unfortunately if we do not band together, the American Dream will be lost FOREVER! It doesn’t matter what political party you are affiliated with as long as it’s core belief’s are Freedom, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. When we lose sight of these principals America will no longer be different then the rest of the world. Greed,Socialism,Communism, marxism,etc. are not one of these core belief’s.

    • someone

      @fcgiii
      after everything said on this board, your comment is an example of ignorance. it’s not about you agreeing with me or not, simply your generic use of terms “liberty”, “freedom”, “greed” is a marvelous example of Goebbels-like propaganda.

      you’re talking about freedom in a country where police and dozen of other gov. agencies can enter your property, without warrant, detain residents for unspecified amount of time, without legal counsel. yes, this is happening to american citizens, not only illegal immigrants.
      you’re talking about american dream, while you have no credit for making that dream come true. your ancestors lived american dream, they came here to build better future, now your generation decided to keep all that for yourselves and keep future immigrants out. did you mention “greed”?
      people like you are ready to give up your liberties for absolute safety. you deserve neither.

      • fcgiii

        Someone
        My be to you I sound ignorant and that’s you opinion. I don’t have a problem with immigrant’s. I do have a problem with having to pay to take of their health care, education ,etc., when Americans can’t even take care of Americans. People say that americans will not do the job’s that illeagal immigrant’s are doing, but the road that we are currently going down might prove this theory wrong. You say you are an immigrant and you seem to understand the Constitution but you don’t seem to get it. Today’s politician do not care what you think
        only where their next buck(Greed)is coming from. They give me no comfort nor do I care for hand outs,nor illegal search and seizure, nor do I expect you to stand beside me when the Signers words are forgotten and the Tank’s are rolling down your street.

  • keith

    about a couple million mines would fix the damn problem!

    • someone

      a few nukes would fix all our problems

  • keith

    you should’nt have to press”1” to hear english!

    • someone

      signed

  • Joe H.

    Marcum,
    Are you now ready to start WW3? Most of those people you talk of are in Russia. I’ll tell you what. You go and find them and we’ll come get em’ when you do. There is a difference you know? You have to choose your battles one at a time and fight the ones you can without ending the lives of everybody in the world! That is why we have to destroy Iran’s capability to launch nukes before they achieve it. Even if one explodes over there, the cancer rates here will raise. The radiation from Chernobyl was detected here and that wasn’t a bomb exploding in the sand of the middle east. Take that radioactive sand, propel it a few hundred feet in the air and the trade winds will do the rest!!!

    • Thurman Marcum

      joeh,

      You are crazy as hell.If We pull out of the Middle East and start working toward a peaceful solution,that would solve most of the conflicts.My ancestor on my mother’s was Jewish.Jewish faith is made up of many races.They are not all white.You got black Jews,Oriental Jews ,Semitic Jews and other races that make up different Jewish religions.Even they don’t like each other.There is no such thing as a jewish race.They even had a race riot in the so called homeland. The black jews were accusing the Isreali government of racism.Check it out,you may be in for a surprise.

  • Joe H.

    Marcum,
    I hate to inform you but having one ancestor you never knew that was Jewish does not make you an expert on the middle east. Everything you say is in direct dispute to everything I have been told by everyone I have talked to upon returning from service in the middle east. You should try talking to a few vets, they are the only TRUE source of what’s going on over there. The government is only going to tell you what they want you to hear! do you honestly believe that a man that swears the holocaust never happened and has stated that Israel must be destroyed is going to be complacent with things there if we leave? If so you are out of your mind!!! Iran will keep stirring things up over there till either the middle east or Israel is gone and who do you think it will be? Then we will see how crazy I am!!!

    • libertytrain

      Joe – re Marcum’s comment – Sadly, I’ve heard more and more people – mostly young – because they don’t know or understand – and to date, all the others have been older liberals who seem to have forgotten what happened in the 40′s – – people who are speaking extremely badly about Israel and the Jewish people. It makes me very sad and uncomfortable to see the beginning of a new wave of dislike for a people who have really suffered through history and a fear that it will all happen again – and, while, yes, I am told my father’s grandmother was Jewish, I’m pretty sure I can’t attest to a profound knowledge of the Jewish Race based on that – and yep, sure you can convert to Judaism – like Sammy Davis Jr. or Elizabeth Taylor – BUT there is a race of people – not only a religion – I remember my old friend Jerry -shortly before he died- (He belonged to Jews for Jesus) – anyway, he said “Here I am – a Christian and dying of a disease common only to the Jewish Race”. – He does need to do some serious research.

      • Thurman Marcum

        libertytrain,,

        It was my great grandmother that was Jewish.I even years ago was going to marry a jewish girl,she died of cancer.I am proud of my jewish heritage,but jews are like anyone else ,they are human.I ask a Christain friend about the Isrealites,he said the Isrealites are Christains,the Israelis are Jews.Violence is not the answer.I believe all religions are base on myths.That what leads to bigotry and racism.There are a religious sect in Isreal that want to make it their world.What they want is a Jewish world without gentiles.That sounds like Adolph Hitler’s Nazi Germany.We need to start respecting other people.Most of my people are Chistains.We need work toward peace, not arm conflict.

      • Thurman Marcum

        liberty,

        These people didn’t convert to Judaism.There are people of different races, for hundreds of years embrace Judaism.That is like saying all Italians are Catholic.Not all Jews are white.Check on the internet the races that claim to be Jews.

        • libertytrain

          Thurman – I believe what I was saying is there is a race of Jewish people – I think you said there was no such thing as the Jewish race? – I never said all people practicing Judaism are white – Perhaps it’s just semantics – perhaps the correct word is lineage?

          • Thurman Marcum

            liberity,

            Being Jewish doesn’t mean a particular race,but different religions.The christain religions are made up of many races,we got blacks,whites,Italians and other peoples.There are conserative jews,reform jews, humanist jews,and countless others that make up Judaism, also many races belong to the JEwish faith.There for Jews are not a race,but a religion.Ask any rabbi.He will tell you.

          • libertytrain

            I don’t think we’re on the same wavelength – I”m not arguing with you – You’re specifically talking religion and I’m talking ethnic – I’m stating there is more to the Jewish people than a religious connection. “The Jews (Hebrew: יְהוּדִים‎, Yehudim), also known as the Jewish people, are an ethnoreligious group originating in the Israelite or Hebrews of the Ancient Near East. The Jewish ethnicity, nationality, and religion are strongly interrelated” It’s more than religion -

  • http://NA Dale W. Green

    See:
    READY TO REVOLT: Oath Keepers pledges to prevent dictatorship in United States

    http://www.lvrj.com/news/oath-keepers-pledges-to-prevent-dictatorship-in-united-states-64690232.html#blogcomments?submitted=y

    This article presents information from the Southern Poverty Law Center and therefore has no credibility.

    In April of 2005, The Minuteman Project, were all checked out to eliminate racism or white supremacy. Most were former military and law enforcement that only wanted our border secure. Though entirely clean of the accusations, The Minuteman Project were dubbed as racist anyway by this rogue “law center”.

    This “Law Center”, is no cleaner than ACORN! Someone should investigate them. Additionally, publications such as this should do the research, before presenting a bias, seemingly conclusive summary of people/oath protecting organizations such as OathKeepers!

    The Southern Poverty Law Center is known for their inflammatory reports containing distorted data with a Left Wing Extremist Agenda. Their goal seems to embrace the destruction of sovereignty through alleged racist propaganda under a double standard, reverse racism methodology. An old trick used in a similar sense on the people of the Soviet Union via a similar “club of rogue jerks of the state”, behind the former “Iron Curtain” in a USSR publication known as Pravda. The SPLC will call anything Conservative racist!

  • http://þÿ Jarrett Grohman

    I think this is among the most vital information for me. And i am glad reading your article. But should remark on few general things, The website style is wonderful, the articles is really excellent : D. Good job, cheers

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