DOMA’s Demise

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Some endeavors are best left to the Federal government, loath though I might be to admit it: the Eisenhower Interstate Highway System, ADX Florence Federal supermax penitentiary, the 3rd Infantry Division, keeping Harry Reid occupied. You know, the big stuff.

The problems always seem to start when the Feds take an active interest in the little things, such as what’s going on in your bedroom. Wednesday morning, the Supreme Court ruled the Defense of Marriage Act (DOMA) unConstitutional. Writing for the five justices in the majority, Justice Anthony Kennedy noted DOMA:

… places same-sex couples in an unstable position of being in a second-tier marriage… The differentiation demeans the couple, whose moral and sexual choices the Constitution protects, and whose relationship the state has sought to dignify.

I say it’s about bloody time.

I’m a conservative guy with libertarian leanings. Not only do I cherish the idea of limited government, but I’d prefer what government there is to stay the hell off my porch. I am well aware that the Feds seldom back up once they get a foot-, hand- or even toehold on our side of the fence. DOMA, which was signed into law by President Bill Clinton, and laws like it represent a Federal government that has not only invaded our personal turf, but has taken a dip in our pool, torn up our rose bushes and raided our fridge.

In what I will acknowledge was one of his typically masterful dissents, Justice Antonin Scalia rails against the Supreme Court being used as a cudgel, suggesting it had no business interfering in the issue:

We might have covered ourselves with honor today, by promising all sides of this debate that it was theirs to settle and that we would respect their resolution. We might have let the People decide.

But I would retort that DOMA is essentially the same cudgel, albeit wielded by the other hand. The court is no less a branch of the Federal government than the Legislature. If one has no business acting on marriage, then neither does the other.

Back in 2010, Judge Joseph Tauro issued summary judgment in Gill v. Office of Personnel Management and Massachusetts v U.S. Department of Health and Human Services. Tauro, appointed to the Federal bench in 1972 by Richard Nixon, noted that DOMA abrogates the Constitutional guarantees of due process and States’ rights. Had I been an attorney for the plaintiffs in either case, I would have hammered not only those two tenets of the Bill of Rights, but also the Full Faith and Credit Clause. I think a fair case could even be made for the Commerce Clause.

Before some of you begin feverishly filling the comments section below with your hopes that I be consigned to an eternity watching reruns of “The View,” think carefully. Many of you join me in staunch defense of the 2nd Amendment. For example, California refuses to honor Arizona’s open carry law. While draconian firearms laws might fall behind Senators Barbara Boxer and Dianne Feinstein and the Cal-Berkeley faculty on the list of distasteful Golden State traits, they violate Full Faith and Credit Clause (not to mention that pesky Bill of Rights). As for the Commerce Clause, think of the money DOMA is costing Key West wedding planners.

Some people feel same-sex marriages threaten the sanctity of traditional unions. The divorce rate in this country suggests same-sex marriage is not the reason that sanctity is cowering under the bed. As for individual nuptials, the fact that the guys across the street have matching wedding bands isn’t going to get you out of taking out the garbage — nor is it going give you an alibi when your wife catches you with that hot new receptionist.

When it comes to the example same-sex marriages might set for the Nation’s youth, allow me to offer an allegory. In recent years, I’ve had the privilege of making the acquaintance of a couple of fine gentlemen who have been together for some time. They are erudite, cultured and well-off. I have a hard time imagining they would provide as poor a familial example as the welfare queen dragging her squalling brats through the checkout line while trying to buy lottery tickets with her EBT card, the trailer park Cleopatra who just popped her kid in the mouth for “interruptin’ mama while she’s a-watchin’ ‘QVC’s Ceramic Cat Cavalcade’” or the Hollyweird fame hound who treats her whelps like fashion accessories: “Not now, Apple. The paparazzi are getting Mommy’s good side.”

For the fine folks who might now direct me to the sections of Genesis, Leviticus, Romans and Corinthians that deal either directly or indirectly with this topic, let me redirect your attention to John 8:7 (we nailed the last guy who met that criterion to a cross), Matthew 22:21 (pay your speeding tickets, and let the Almighty worry about Heather’s two mommies), and of course, John 4:7-8 (it’s all about love).

As a matter of due disclosure, I find the concept of “being” with another man repellent. But I find MSNBC’s primetime lineup at least as awful. When it comes to the former, I can — as Eddie Murphy once said — go get a beer. When it comes to the latter, I can throw my television out the window. In this boy’s America, beer is easy to come by; and I don’t have to tomahawk the flat-screen.

If you’re looking for a real threat to the fabric of freedom, forget about the same-sex couples. Take a look at C-SPAN sometime, or watch one of those interminable press conferences during which President Barack Obama tries to slither out of his latest disgrace to the Oval Office. Now that’s scary.

–Ben Crystal

Ben Crystal

is a 1993 graduate of Davidson College and has burned the better part of the last two decades getting over the damage done by modern-day higher education. He now lives in Savannah, Ga., where he has hosted an award-winning radio talk show and been featured as a political analyst for television. Currently a principal at Saltymoss Productions—a media company specializing in concept television and campaign production, speechwriting and media strategy—Ben has written numerous articles on the subjects of municipal authoritarianism, the economic fallacy of sin taxes and analyses of congressional abuses of power.

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  • Warrior

    I think the main result is, the “legal factory” just hit the “lotto”!

  • independent thinker

    I cannot and do not approve of same sex marrage. However, is this something we want the Feds involved in or is it something the individual states should have the final say about.

    • Dave

      Equality is not a states rights issue.

  • Liberty Lover

    Witty and perceptive as usual, Ben! Thanks. Live and let live!

  • village idiot

    There is sooooooooooo much controversy in the world today that one can be forgiven for considering it a scary place. The problem is that there are so many issues that one can find abhorrent and despicable, that they should not even be given an audience, however these issues seem continually to occupy the attention of people to the extent that it becomes quite sickening. Their relevance and importance are elevated to unwarranted positions of worth. The situation is that there are not sufficient folks who really care that the stupid and mindless laws and regulations are being instituted by those who are of criminal intent, have no moral fibre and simply do not care. The question is – ” what are the good guys going to do about it?”

    Even to consider the election of another morally bankrupt individual to the highest office is indicative of our malaise and warrants some soul searching.

    Where to now? Seems nobody knows and worse nobody really cares and that is very scary indeed.

  • Numb3rTech

    I really don’t care for same sex stuff. But it does not bother me as long as it is not pushed in my face or onto my family. Then, I will hate it. Live as normal people, keep private parts of your life private and I do not care. I will even listen with compassion about family problems. I don’t want to know what you do in the bedroom. I think gay pride sucks. It should be a non-issue that does not need a week or month to celebrate. How would these people react to pro DOMA week or month? Just live your lives. You will be happy & I will be happy for you.

    • me

      It will effect our children in schools. I’ve read articles where they are tying to push homosexual sex education in school. Imagine teaching and glorifying sodomy. In the bible homosexualism was sinful. This world is heading into a Sodom and Gomorrah type era. Makes you wonder if judgement day isn’t too far off.

      • Doc Sarvis

        Please reference the articles you mention.

        • RAND PAUL IN 2016

          Me (above) is right…go to MASSRESISTANCE.COM & check out this stuff…they will not rest until everyone agrees they are normal & they ain’t, they are sick souls! that is why they go after the young so much, to brainwash them early, to shove this crap down their throats & into their minds…it’s disgusting!!…. In the mid 1970’s the Psychiatric Diagnostic Manual changed homosexuality from a “Psychological Disorder” to a “Social Condition”….No one has ever explained exactly what a “Social Condition” is, but since that time the dark forces have been on a crusade to claim this darkness & perversion is Pure & Light & it ain’t!!!

      • Doc Sarvis

        Seems like a GREAT way to reduce teenage pregnancies. Ha!

        Really, homosexuality is not a choice or learned behavior, it is what someone IS. Were you taught to be heterosexual??? I sure was not – it is how I was born.
        Any education about homosexuality is good if it is directed at accepting people if they love someone else and if they are both consenting adults there is nothing wrong about that.

        • Alan

          Sorry Doc. Nature made me heterosexual. I didn’t need to be taught as you put it. It’s like a light bulb to it’s socket. Try fitting two male or female parts together. It simply doesn’t work. Homosexuality is a choice until proven otherwise and I have yet to see evidence of such a gene. And before you try knocking me as a homophobe, I have two homosexual brothers whom I love very much, but they are still wrong for lusting after those of the same gender.

          • Dave

            Do animals “choose” to me homosexual? Sciene has proven homosexuality occurs in dolphins, dogs and muliple other species?

            When did you “choose”? At what age did you weigh the pros and cons? See I always knew I was heterosexual. My Cousin always knew he was homoosexual.

            It is a proven occurence in nature

            http://www.news-medical.net/news/2006/10/23/20718.aspx

            It is not a “choice”

          • Vigilant

            Well, well, you couldn’t have done a better job of
            arguing against yourself if you had tried.

            You’d best reassess your philosophy and logic if
            you’re going to continue to maintain that homosexuality is not a choice but an inherent biological abnormality.

            A mainstay of Christianity is the freedom of
            choice. No one can fault a person for acting
            in a way that nature built him. If one is born with diabetes I, is malformed in a physical way or with a predisposition to homosexuality, then they did not, as you say, have a choice. They have a medical condition.

            Sin is defined by the making of choices, not by learning
            to live with the apparatus or situation given to us at birth by the Creator. Condemning a bastard is a perfect example. The child had no choice and
            deserves no persecution for his/her “condition.”

            As a matter of historical background, Onanism
            (masturbation) and homosexuality were discouraged because the nomadic society of the Jews needed as many births as they could muster, to grow and prosper. Anything which diverted the sexual energies
            toward non-reproductive ends did not help the tribes.

          • Dave

            Vigilant,
            I have science that says homosexuality occurs naturally in other species and in man. You have?
            Oh yes, a book of fables known as the bible that was written and re-written by men over centuries.
            Homosexuality is not a “sin” it just “is”
            Social conservative bigots “discourage” homosexuality by beating those who dare express their homosexuality. Did that stop people from being homosexual? No… It just kept people in the closet for many years and kept a lot of people unhappy because they had to live a lie because the religious are know-it-alls when it comes to morality and right/wrong which is a massive falsehood.

          • Alan

            It most definitely is a choice Dave. As I said, I did not have to choose because nature assigned me the equipment for mating with a woman and vice versa. That is natural.

      • Name

        Get a grip. It’s called toleration. You don’t have to worry about your children…. it doesn’t rub off. It is a condition you are born with.

        • S.C.Murf

          you need to make that popping sound. A condition of mental disorder as stated by the American Psychiatric Association

          up the hill
          airborne

        • vicki

          Even if it is learned behavior, teach your children well and you won’t have to worry about it.

          • Dave

            Or perhaps accept them for who they are. Homosexuality harms nobody. They only time anyone is hurt by homosexuality is when the nutjob religious conservatives believe Jesus told them to butcher homosexuals because the bible said so… (which it did not)

          • Vigilant

            “If a man also lie with mankind as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall surely be put to death; their blood be upon them.” (Leviticus 20:13)

          • Vigilant

            1 Corinthians 6:9: “Do you not know that the unjust will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators nor idolaters nor adulterers nor homosexuals nor sodomites … will inherit the kingdom of God.”

            1 Timothy 1:10: “… law is meant not for a righteous person but for the lawless and unruly … the unchaste, practicing homosexuals, kidnapers, liars, perjurers, and whatever else is opposed to sound teaching.”

          • Dave

            That is the old “mean and nasty” testiment which todays Christians say they have evolved from because that bible sounded too much like the Koran.

      • Numb3rTech

        You are right. I do not want my grandchildren being taught by a liberal teacher. I hope my children homeschool. I will help them with that. At least they will learn real history and not the Obama agenda that is being taught in so many schools. They will not have classes where Islam is taught & our hero soldiers are still heroes instead of terrorists. Also, the real terrorists will never be known as freedom fighters in my family.

  • Randy

    Ben, your message is well taken. The sad point is that the Court and legislature, picks and chooses its causes too readily. This, especially where it involves the Constitution. I feel this is the one point left out.
    Our Constitution is a living document. It possesses the means of change required in a growing society. The framers did not mince words on the Second Amendment. It deals with the specific right of gun ownership. Yet the government alters it by legislation. The First Amendment says CONGRESS shall make no laws… Yet SCOTUS applies an interpretation not provided anywhere in the Constitution to all government entities through the Fourteenth Amendment.
    The so called “right” to have an abortion or unite in a same sex marriage are Constitutional rights according to the Court. I do not presuppose to promote or deny either one (though I do oppose the murder of innocent children). The point is, the Court and Congress can create rights that are not mentioned in the Constitution, but chop up rights that are.
    Same sex marriage is or should be between the participants. The major issue I have with the entire GLBT movement is the fact that they can’t just keep their orientation to themselves like most heterosexual couples. Forcing young people to openly acknowledge homosexuality (this occurred in a junior college near me), or teaching it to younger children is just plain wrong.
    I realize neither of the rulings by the Court on homosexual issues forces all states to legalize gay marriage. The gay/lesbian agenda should not include forcing their views on others, especially our children.

    • RAND PAUL IN 2016

      It is more than forcing their views on us, it is forcing us to participate in it, as for example wedding photographers or caterers who do not want to put their stamp of approval on such abominable darkness & get sued for not wanting to do these homosexual events! Even though, the homosexuals can go to others who will gladly take their money. You see, they get terribly offended when others do not sanction their lewd lifestyle. If this was really a universal cause, as true civil & human rights are, there would not have to be provisions for exemptions. Deep in their souls, they know what they are doing is wrong & against the Divine & Natural Law that is written in all our hearts, but rather than put in the hard work needed to overcome, they rather force everyone else into thinking they are “NORMAL”. Souls are born with all kinds of proclivities to commit sins, such as thieves & alcoholics, etc..It is only the homosexuals who parade through the streets & are PROUD of it!!!

      • Chester

        So what is preventing you, or any heterosexual, from getting a group of your friends together and having a parade down Main Street USA to celebrate your lifestyle? From what I have seen of the gay pride movement, it is very similar, although far less militant, than the black pride movement was. Even more, it is based on the same problem, discrimination. If you are proud of who you are, discrimination becomes a tiny bit less odious.

        • RAND PAUL IN 2106

          Your so-called Homosexual Pride parade is nothing more than a porno movie…almost fully naked men rubbing up against each other…Yeah, that’s good for the kiddies!! BTW, how come when they show Jesus in bondage or Mary in a bikini, so hurtful to people of faith, they are not charged with a hate crime…but a 7th grader can’t say he thinks homosexuality is wrong???

        • RAND PAUL IN 2016

          But, what they are proud of being is not their REAL SELVES!!!! They were not created that way , but became that way. CASE CLOSED!! The great Spirit of Life does not create disease or imperfection….our misuse of free will does!!!

          • Chester

            Begging your pardon, sir, but they WERE created “that way”. If you were going to choose a way of life, would you intentionally choose one that would lead to discrimination and outright hatred? God created us all, just as He created all creatures, great and small. And yes, that includes the cockroach just as much as you or me. It seems you are the one who is calling God wrong, telling his creations that they ARE NOT RIGHT.

          • S.C.Murf

            Gods creatures are the ones that makes mistakes, in their choice of life styles. God did not create them this way, they choose to practice homosexuality. What you are missing is the fact that God gave to satan the power to create, not instill a soul but to be able to create and create he did. he is, compared to us, a higher power. You sir need to study up on the evil forces that rule this earth, and then beg Jesus for forgiveness.

            up the hill
            airborne

          • RAND PAUL IN 2016

            You are so wrong, it is not funny….THEY WERE NOT CREATED THAT WAY!!! God does not create imperfection or disease…..there is reincarnation, and many lifetimes for most of us in these schoolrooms of earth, they became that way in one of their lifetimes & now have a momentum on it & find it hard to change, but there is hope for all…does God create children with leukemia just for the fun of it? just to see people suffer? Of course not, Hey karma is a [expletive deleted] , but the Cosmic Bill Collector must be paid sooner or later!!

            Yes, God created us all & he created us in the Divine Image, in perfection, but we were given Free Will, that is what makes us true Sons & Daughters of God (PSALM 82.6), that is what makes us Co-Creators with God, but the free will is not really free, it has to be returned to God, one must obey the precepts of Divine Law…not the Law in any books, but the Law written in all our hearts!

            Homosexuals right now have more rights than Christians!!

      • Name

        I have never encountered homosexuals forcing their lifestyle or way of thinking on me or anyone that I know. It’s just a hot topic now and once the American people understand that they are here to stay and they will not affect their own marriage everything will calm down. As for children, they are the ones who should be educated about homosexuality because they have to go to school with them. They must learn to either respect them or ignore them. They should learn that because they are different (just like skin color) that they have a place in society too. No use fighting it. Think “civil rights” in the 1950’s. Wasn’t that just as contraversial? Everybody got over that. ( well, most) And you will have to get over this too. Just because your belief doesn’t match their belief doesn’t make you right.

        • RAND PAUL IN 2016

          Oh, yeah they get educated alright…about how good & wonderful it is & how anyone who disagrees is a stupid bigot!!! They get educated that it is a normal way to live, when it is not. It is a sickness & no matter how many elites try to force that crap down our throats they can;t change that!!

  • RAND PAUL IN 2016

    You say that same-sex marriage does not threaten traditional marriage…that is a lie, for once you go down this slope, why shouldn’t 3 or 4 or more people get married? If it is all about love & commitment, why shouldn’t a person be able to marry their dog or horse? There are no more barricades….I believe cities, towns, organizations, & nations have souls & make karma, both good & bad & governments sanctioning & legitimizing sodomy & homosexuality is indeed very, very bad karma….Make no mistake, it is not really about marriage, but feeling normal that drives the entire homosexual agenda, it is about bludgeoning everyone who disagrees into silence, it is about killing God in the public square…If you don’t believe me go the website, MASSRESITANCE.COM & see the horrors it has wreaked on the Bay Colony…after decades of the brainwashing of our youth by the Hollywood crowd, the Madison Ave. crowd, the elites who teach our youth, they feel there is nothing wrong with this decadence & nothing wrong with calling those who disagree, haters & bigots!! We are in a Sodom & Gomorrah redux!! Add this to the state-sanctioned & funded killing of innocent life in the womb & we are doomed…far more doomed by this than the dark forces messing with the economy!!

    • Chester

      Where in our law does it state the number of people allowed in a marriage. Oh! That’s right. A bunch of laws were written exclusively to outlaw Mormonism.

      • RAND PAUL IN 2016

        The Mormons took more wives because there was a dearth of men to take of them….I’m just saying once you go down this path, sooner or later anything will go & the culture will go with it!

        • Chester

          Sir,was no dearth of of men, This was a power and control thing, plain pure and simple. If there was a shortage of anything, it would have been females, as that belief at that time was even less kind to women than some of the others. Young men were encouraged to marry outside the church, then bring their wives into it. A sneaky way of gaining membership, but effective.

    • Name

      It’s about civil rights. No more, no less. And what a ridiculous analogy that people will now want to marry their dog or horse. Gimme a break.

  • Al Chemist

    Should not the government derive its powers from the consent of the governed? That’s not so anymore. The government now derives its powers from the consent of the lawyers. Sad!

  • frederik_h

    Well folks, as they say, LIVE and LET LIVE. It’s always the same story with topics such as gay marriage and gay rights: conservatives start bawling and whining, liberals and semi-liberals rejoice whenever there’s a victory for us gays to celebrate. So, what else is new. Jeez, It’s all so hopelessly predictable.

    • S.C.Murf

      frederik_h, God calls them sodomites that’s there name not gays. They stole that word to make what they do seem all right, it is an abomination in the eyes of God so call them by their true name SODOMITES.

      up the hill
      airborne

      • Chester

        scmurf, and should be smurf for that comment, go back and read what and who sodomites actually were, rather than putting the spin that evangelical preacher you grew up listening to practiced. Might even read some of the other postings in this column to gain some enlightenment.

        • S.C.Murf

          I rely on the word of God not man as you do. And I will stand as witness against you at the white throne judgement. God said that every day we make our choice of who we will follow and today you choose satan and all his followers. We will see how far that gets you.
          Michael Swift wrote, some time ago, in the gay community news, “We shall sodomize your sons, emblems of your feeble masculinity, we shall seduce them in your schools, in your dormitories, in your gymnasiums, in your locker rooms, in your seminaries, in your youth groups.

          The media has portrayed the homosexual relationship as a monogamous , loving , family environment but according to the institute for Sex Research- the average homosexual will have between 300 and 500 sex partners! And 28 percent of male homosexuals admitted to having sex with 2000 partners! This is a sickness and a choice that the homosexual makes. God does not make homosexuals, evil does, they are brain washed and recruited. God does not make mistakes, man does. You can say what ever you want because it wont change the outcome. You see the word of God was written 2000 years ago and will never disappear from the face of this earth.

          up the hill
          airborne

          • Chester

            Sir, you have condemned yourself to a hell of your own making, as you are never going to be happy here on earth. Oh, and better research on that Institute for Sex Research, as they, too, have a major ax to grind with any who does not agree with them. By far and away the majority of homosexuals, just like heterosexuals, will have less than a dozen sex partners in his or her lifetime. Can tell that the only sources you are willing to accept are those that agree with your very sour outlook on life.

          • S.C.Murf

            Care to give the source of your ranting or is it B.S.? At least I gave you a source. What say you? And my outlook on life is a very good one because God will have the final say.

            up the hill
            airborne

          • RAND PAUL IN 2016

            God bless you S.C. Murf, for you are correct!!!! Many homosexuals change every year, for they hear the cry of their souls to flee this decadent bondage & unite with their true selves!!!

          • frederik_h

            Hey Murf, first off, how do you know the Bible is the word of God at all. It’s full of Lies, hideous violence, harsh jealousy (God even calls himself jealous and full of wrath). Is that what you call a transcendent and Loving Being? Come on. A Holy Book? Come again. It’s a total disgrace, just as despicable as the koran and other ancient crap. Sod off, please

          • Dave

            And the bible was written by men so you do rely on the word of men Murf. They dupped you.

  • Doc Sarvis

    A conservative Supreme Court overturns the DOMA signed by a Democratic President. Interesting times.
    Jesus never spoke against the homosexual life from what I can tell.

    • RAND PAUL IN 2016

      Jesus said, :I AM ALPHA & OMEGA, the beginning & the end”……use your head, sir!!! Male & Female forces coming together to complement & lift each other up…there are many spiritual adepts who can read the Akashic records & know that Sodom & Gomorrah was no joke!!!

      • Dave

        If homosexuality is the clear reason for God’s judgment on Sodom and Gomorroah, why doesn’t the writer of Genesis state it clearly as such. The prophet Ezekial indicates a clear reason in the sixteenth chapter of his prophetic word, verses 49-50:

        “Now this is the sin of your sister Sodom: She and her daughters were
        arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not
        help the poor and needy. They were haughty and did detestable
        things before me. Therefore I did away with them as you have seen.”

        This passage says nothing about sexual acts of any kind as the reason for the destruction, but does specifically outline arrogance and a lack of concern for the needs of others as the reason. The passage clearly teaches that inhospitable acts were the key reasons for God’s judgment.

        Many would say that the “detestable” things mentioned in the passage referred to sexual sins including homosexuality which is an abomination to God. Proverbs 6:16-19 lists seven things that are particularly detestable to God:

        “There are six things that the Lord hates, seven that are detestable
        to him: haughty eyes, a lying tongue, hands that shed innocent blood,
        a heart that devises wicked schemes, feet that are quick to rush into
        evil, a false witness who pours out lies and a man who stirs up
        dissension among brothers.”

        No where here do we see condemnation of sexual sin of any kind, much less homosexuality. This is not to say that homosexual acts were not occurring in Sodom or that they were acceptable to God. The incident outside Lot’s house (Genesis 19:1-10) does show that the intentions of those gathered around the house were to have sexual relations with the “angels” supposed to be men. A loving act, however, was not intended, but in this case rape. This kind of treatment was not uncommon in ancient civilizations are a demonstrative way of showing power over enemies. By itself, this was not the reason for the destruction of Sodom, since the Lord had already determined to destroy the city prior to the angels’ visitation (Genesis 18).

        In Jude 7, the writer says that the people had gone after “strange flesh”. Some believe that this is referring to homosexuality. The translation “strange flesh” is from the Greek words heteros sarx (#2087 and #4561) meaning “different flesh”. Had the writer wanted to refer to homosexual acts, it would have made more sense to use terms homos sarx (#3676 and #4571) meaning “same flesh”. The Old Testament Pseudopigrapha suggests an alternative rendering of this verse might be that Jude was stating that “just like the wicked angels, the inhabitants of Sodom and Gomorrah left their first grace and gave themselves to idolatrous prostitution and the violent treatment of other people, so they have become and example by suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.”

        Jesus commented on the sin of Sodom indirectly (Matthew 10:14-15) when he gave his disciples instructions concerning their proper response to inhospitable acts toward them. He stated that “if anyone will not welcome you or listen to your words, shake off the dust of your feet when you leave that home or town. I tell you the truth, it will be more bearable for Sodom and Gomorrah on the day of judgment than for that town.” Though it is not stated directly, the inference by contrast is clear: Jesus says that Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed because of inhospitable acts.

        The traditional interpretation of this story largely stems from the unfortunate translation of the word enoshe (#582) in Genesis 19:4. Most versions say “men”.

        “Before they had gone to bed, all the men from every part of the city
        of Sodom – both young and old – surrounded the house”

        The Hebrew word enoshe is not gender specific but indicates mortals or people. The word esh (#376) would have been used to mean “man” or eshal (#802) to mean “woman” if gender specific terminology was meant. This mistranslation gives the impression that just the men of the city had surrounded Lot’s house and the further impression that they were all homosexuals out to have sex with the angels. The word enoshe is used in Genesis 17:23 with the word zechar (#2145) meaning “male” demonstrates this point. The King James Version states it this way:

        “Abraham took Ishmael and…every male among the men of Abraham’s house…”

        The question arises, what other kind of men are there but males? Abraham was selecting the males from among all the “people” on his household for circumcision. The more modern translations corrected Genesis 17:23 to indicate people (or in this case household), but for some reason did not make the same correction in Genesis 19:6.

        The intentions of the people surrounding Lot’s house were to rape the visitors. Most people regard rape as an act of violence rather than a sexual act. As it would be illogical to condemn all heterosexual sexual acts because some people acted abusively, it is also illogical to bring condemnation to all homosexual acts when only some acted irresponsibly.

        Women in the culture of the Old Testament were treated as property; to be used as their owners saw fit. Men, on the other hand, were to be given respect. Sexual violence against a man by another man was an all too common demonstration of dominance over another. Its purpose was to take away the dignity of the subdued; to humiliate the man through forced anal intercourse. This was carried out by men who were not necessarily homosexuals themselves. Compare with Judges 19.

        Prostitutes were a common part of the religious fertility rituals in ancient times and no doubt were prevalent in Sodom and Gomorrah. A word used by many today to condemn homosexuals is the word Sodomite. Many use this term as a reference to those who lived in Sodom and supposing them to be homosexuals, have used this word synonymously with homosexual as a negative slam. The word, however, does not appear in the story of the destruction of Sodom and is used only four times in the entire Bible. It is the word kawdashe (#6945) and refers to male temple cult prostitutes. Usually, as in Deuteronomy 23:17, their counter parts, kedayshaw (#6948), the female temple cult prostitutes are also mentioned. These are not homosexuals. They are prostitutes who were active in the worship of the pagan fertility gods and goddesses of ancient Palestine, according to Dake’s Annotated Reference Bible. The word sodomite originated from the King James Version, but only in reference to these temple cult prostitutes. Later versions must have picked up the homosexual connotation from the traditional understanding and interpretation of what the sin of Sodom was, and has since been used to condemn homosexuality.

        • RAND PAUL IN 2016

          You can list all these things, you can do all the research you want to, but if you read this book (which has been tampered with quite a lot over the centuries) & think that God, the Spirit of Life, the Universal Creator condones homosexual acts, you are totally lost!! You don’t need this book anyway, the LAWS of God are written in our hearts & souls…Cosmic Law, Divine Law, Natural Law! God does not create homosexuals, they are not born that way! We are created in the Divine Image…in PERFECTION..it is only the misuse of Free Will that creates imperfection & disease, etc…The key to understanding life is karma & reincarnation…at some point in one their embodiments, homoseuxals engaged in this darkness & now have a momentum on it & it is not so easy to change…society putting their stmap of approval on it ain’t gonna help!! The Essenes knew about reincarnation, it was in the Bible before the council of Nicea took it out, St. Francis talked about it all the time in the public square…the people showed they knew of it in Jesus’ time, as they asked him all the “Are you David come again?” ‘Are you Elijah come again”?…Many spiritual adepts have read the records of Akasha at the time of Sodom & Gomorrah & homosexuality & bestiality were rampant!

          • Dave

            So even though new evidence is presented, you ignore that new evidence and continue believing your previous ignorance.
            That is conservatism in a nutshell

          • Chester

            Dave, there are those who do not know the truth when it bites them if it doesn’t fit their preconceived notions. This gentleman is a good example of that type of person.

          • Dave

            Chester,

            I believe you are right about that. He is happy in his belief system and he can’t have his apple cart disturbed in any way with nonsense like facts and reality.

          • Chester

            Why not read L. Ron Hubbard and his founding of the Church of Scientology. You will get as much education, and probably a lot more truth there. As far as homosexual marriages, have you ever participated in one? Do you even KNOW an openly gay person? If not, so some more investigating, oh, and read more than just the King James version of the Bible. Again, you might learn something. If two guys love each other, whether they have sex or not, why and how does that harm you. You scream against the gay pride parades, yet have to go to Brazil’s CarneVal to find things to illustrate your hatred.

          • RAND PAUL IN 2016

            I know several homosexual people, including my girlfriend’s 2 brothers & love them both…but I did not attend their weddings, as I would not legitimize their perverse lifestyle!

          • Vigilant

            Where is your high dudgeon over adultery? The Draconian OT punishment was stoning to death, I believe. You comfortable with that?

          • RAND PAUL IN 2016

            Adultery is a sin, too, but do you see adulterers parading through the streets saying how PROUD they are?….I’m not for stoning Homosexuals to death, nor denying them housing or jobs, I just don’t want the state & them shoving their agenda down my throat, which is what has happened. I believe homoseuxality is a repulsive lifestyle & sin & when the state sanctions it, it brings bad karma upon us, the Roman empire & the greeks had rampant homosexuality & fell…I believe I have the right to say that without being threatened with a hate crime. HOmos have more rights now than normal people!!

            There are all kinds of love, but no one can convince me that when 2 men get together & try to be spouses that is not disgusting & a transgression against Divine Law!!

          • Vigilant

            “… it brings bad karma upon us?” And all his time I thought you were a Christian.

            Are not all sins equal in the eyes of God?

            ” I believe homosexuality is a repulsive lifestyle & sin & when the state sanctions it…”

            I believe cheating on your wife is repulsive and is a sin, and try to find a state that will punish adultery any more.

      • Doc Sarvis

        Sodom & Gomorrah, that’s Old Testament right? I said Jesus never spoke against homosexuality – THAT would be New Testament!

    • Vigilant

      It never seems to faze Sarvis when he gets it wrong, and this is a big wrong. DOMA was partially overturned by the liberal activist justices on the court and the traditional swing vote.

      SCOTUS does not hold a majority of Conservaives. Bader Ginsburg, Kagan, Sotomayor and Breyer are hardly Convervatives.

  • Annette Rose Giesbrecht

    Up here in Canada in most provinces if a justice of the peace refuses to marry a homosexual or lesbian couple, he gets his license to marry revoked. That comes from the courts deciding that same sex marriage is legal and they have the right, rather then God and common law to decide who marries who and that also means they can easily make, even traditional marriage illegal. Oh in the ancient times, there were no such things as same sex marriages and the first marriage that went against God’s will was when Lamech married two wives. So even the ancient had sense. Homosexual marriage is just about making them feel good and destroying traditional marriage altogether.

    • Dave

      How is marriage “destroyed”? Have any proof of that gratitious assertion? I have been married for over 14 years and the fact that homosexuals are allowed to marry has ZERO effect of my relationships… All it helps to do is teach people tolerance of other and people should be equal under the law… But we know how religious/social conservatives feel about tolerance and equality now don’t we?

      In this country, we do not put our hands on the US Constitution and promise to uphold the bible.

      Religion is created by men to control other people and especially to keep women in their place. People can believe any fairy tale they wish, Christianity, Islam, Judiasm, Budhism etc… But keep it out of the law. Very bad things happen when you mix religion and law.

  • Dave

    Glad to see Ben realize that laws against same sex marriage are laws against freedom and equality. Now if only Ben could get his social conservative brothers and sisters to stop their bigotry against homosexuals. It is conservative Republicans who vow to fight this ruling which is further confirmation that most of the racism and bigotry stems from social conservative ignorance.
    If you don’t support same-sex marriage, your option is clear, do not marry someone of the same sex. Otherwise it is NONE of your business. Whether a church recognizes the marriage or not isn’t the point. It is how same sex couples are treated under the law that is paramount.
    None of the bigots can show how same sex marriage hurts their lives, our society or even children. God forbid we love those who are different from ourselves. Some guy named Jesus talked about love but since when to social religious conservatives care about what that guy thinks anyways? The only “threat” to marriage is divorce. But guys like Rush, Newt don’t want to hear about that nonsense.

  • hungry4food

    The
    Collapse of state sovereignty is the goal of this President’s “ Fundamental
    Transformation “ , it’s Obvious now …….

    President Barack Obama said on
    Thursday that he believes that same-sex marriages performed in one state should
    apply in another.

    “It’s my personal belief — and I’m speaking now as a president [not] as a
    lawyer — if you’re married in Massachusetts and you move someplace else,
    you’re still married,” he said at a press conference with his Senegalese
    counterpart, in Dakar, Senegal.

    “But again, I’m speaking as a president and not as a lawyer,” he
    cautioned, saying that lawyers in his administration are working out the
    details of what Wednesday’s Supreme Court rulings will mean. That work is
    being done by the executive branch in a “systematic and
    prompt way,” he said. “It’s important that people who
    deserve these benefits, that they’re getting them quickly.”

    For more information… http://www.politico.com

  • Chester

    Hungry4food, perhaps you should do a bit of study on our laws. Seems there is a requirement that all states give full faith and credit to contracts set in another state. How else do you get to drive in Arizona with a New York drivers license and Massachusetts tags on your car? How else could a credit card contract with a company based in Delaware be held valid in North Dakota? Think on what you speak of before actually opening your mouth and proving what was already suspected.

    • independent thinker

      Not strictly true. No state is made to recognize a concealed carry permit from another state. If your claim were universally true then a state could not refuse to recognize and honor a CCW permit from any other state.

      • Chester

        The statutes are in place, just selectively enforced. Kind of the point I got to hammer on in a different post. IF the laws on the books were enforced across the board, there would be a lot less confusion over who was allowed to do what to whom, and when.

      • rbrooks

        the problem is not a states refusal to recognize a permit. the problem is being required to have a permit.

        allowing the govt to determine the type of weapon and whom may own a weapon is the real problem.

    • ChuckS123

      I believe that the full faith and credit clause may require states to recognize gay “marriages” from another state, unless congress legislates otherwise. Part of DOMA was to do that. It allowed states to pass laws not honoring gay “marriages” from another state if they wanted to. The other part was to recognize only real marriage at the federal level, but probably let the states do what they wanted otherwise. I think DOMA is pretty good at state’s rights.

  • johnd

    What happened to the church and state concept? Marriage is a religious issue. The only reason the state gets to be involved is because of the tax ramifications. Most of us don’t give a damn who marries who but because of the tax laws it has become a moral issue that seems to be constantly thrown in our face.

  • Alex

    Get off of the Jesus Christ kick! The only words we KNOW that Jesus actually spoke are in The Sermon On the Mount. Nearly EVERY “Christian” ignores the Sermon On the Mount in favor of what someone HUNDREDS of years after Jesus died claims that he said—typical “Christian” myopia.

    From the historical record, we can ascertain that Jesus was very likely Gay.

    By reading the Sermon On the Mount—words so important to Jesus that he had them recorded—we know that Jesus was a Socialist.

  • Alex

    Get off of the Jesus Christ kick! The only words we KNOW that Jesus actually spoke are in The Sermon On the Mount. Nearly EVERY “Christian” ignores the Sermon On the Mount in favor of what someone HUNDREDS of years after Jesus died claims that he said—typical “Christian” myopia.

    From the historical record, we can ascertain that Jesus was very likely Gay.

    By reading the Sermon On the Mount—words so important to Jesus that he had them recorded—we know that Jesus was a Socialist.

    • vicki

      I don’t think that word means what you think it means.

      Socialism:
      http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/socialism

      Sermon On the Mount – Matthew 5-7:
      http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+5-7&version=KJV

      Maybe, just maybe you could try and sell 2a but all the rest is clearly NOT what Jesus taught.

    • Robbie

      You are right on the money Alex. Most of the so-called Christians on this site with whom I have debated never read the Sermon on the Mount and if they did they would disagree with it!

      • WTS/JAY

        Disagree with the Sermon on the Mount in general, or disagree with your, interpretation, of it?

        • Robbie

          They disagree with it IN PARTICULAR and in general. They also disagree with or disobey or simply do not know about many, many Biblical laws. They are all gung ho on the Bible this and the Bible that but the actual content of the Bible is unknown to most of them. The absolute best example – and a very timely one at that – is when Bible thumpers bash gays because in the Bible – true enough – homosexuality is condemned outright. Punishable by death in fact. But, guess what? Heterosexual infidelity is also condemned by god and also punishable by death! Yup. It’s right there in the good book. But do the Bible thumpers ever have much to say about such fornicators? They even re-elect them to high office!!! I find it very amusing.

          • Elevenarrows

            Robbie,

            I can tell you are very hostile to Christianity so I don’t expect to change your mind in a brief message. However, as a genuine Christian (I’ve realized I’m a sinner on my way to hell, but I’ve confessed my sin, accepted Jesus as Lord of my life and seek to live according to His principles as outlined in Scripture), I just want to point out that many of your so-called “Bible thumpers” are most likely not Christians. I know many, many real Christians and none of them are cramming the Bible down anyone’s throat. And I don’t know any of them who condone infidelity (nor would I myself).

            As for Christians not reading the Sermon on the Mount, I can assure you that my family not only reads it, but has studied it and has actually memorized a large portion of it…from my 25 year old all the way down to some of my youngest, elementary-aged children.

            So, I would respectfully ask that you consider that just as all married couples do not commit adultery, all genuine Christians do not overlook and ignore large parts of the Bible just because they might be difficult to digest.

            As for re-electing fornicators to office, I can’t speak for anyone else, but I assure you I attempt to vote for those men who are most closely aligned to my beliefs and values and yes, my beliefs are based on Scripture. Does that mean I only vote for Christians? No. Unfortunately, few genuine Christians actively engage in politics because many of them feel politics are so corrupt in our nation that they would be compromised in how effective they could be in that role. Most choose to try to have an impact on their communities in a smaller way. This is unfortunate since The Black Coat Regiment was so influential at one time in our nation’s history. Pastors used to be major political leaders.

            It is a failure of the Church to continue to act as salt in the earth that has so weakened our once great nation. Many Christians have been silenced through fear and discouragement. I, for one, try to do my part to be a witness of God’s grace to those He brings into my life. My prayer is that God will bring someone across your path who can demonstrate God’s love and grace as they live a true Christian example before you. I suspect you have been encountering counterfeit Christians. The world is full of them and at Judgment Day, they will be separated from true believers like chaff from grain.

          • Robbie

            If you reread what I wrote you’d find that I was not at all attacking Christianity and, in fact, I largely agree with most of what you have written. I have three heroes and two of them are human: Jesus and St. Francis [ the third is Toto who, in the Wizard of Oz pulls back the curtain to reveal who/what god is ]. What I was commenting on where the folks who know very little about what the Bible requires and actually you agree with me on that.

            Although I am not a Christian and quite happy about that obviously with Jesus and Francis as heroes I have a great deal of admiration for true Christian values as per the Sermon on the Mount. Personally I don’t think there have been more than a few dozen true Christian in all of history. It’s a tough row to hoe.

          • Elevenarrows

            Robbie,

            Perhaps I should not have used the word “hostile” because I did not mean to imply that you were attacking Christianity. I did; however, sense that you certainly do not embrace it or approve of it despite the fact that you view Jesus as a hero. Unfortunately, your comments make it quite evident that you do not understand much about Jesus. Admiration is a good starting point, but until you align your life with what Jesus taught in Scripture and what He requires in order for you to be in a right relationship with Him, you cannot be truly “happy” since Scripture teaches otherwise.

            If you are gleaning your view of life and eternity from such as Toto (btw, the wizard of Oz was not God), you will someday hear the sad, final words, “Depart from me, I know you not”. I sincerely hope you will admire Jesus enough to read His Word and ask Him to open your eyes to understand it. As for Jesus’ only recorded words being in the Sermon on the Mount, that shows a lack of understanding, in general, of Scripture. John 1 teaches that Jesus IS “the Word” and He was present even at creation. The entirety of Scripture IS Jesus: about Him, what He did, what He said, what He will do.

            As for you believing there have only been a few dozen true Christians in all of history, I urge you to read Foxe’s Book of Martyrs as a starting point. You are very mistaken. Just counting the last 10 years of my life, I have known hundreds of genuine Christians. Scripture tells us how we will recognize a true believer so I’m confident I am correct. Can people deceive others into believing they are Christians? Absolutely. However, few people are willing to actually die for something they are only pretending to be.

            I hope it doesn’t offend you, but I intend to pray for your salvation. I think you are a person who does some deep thinking and I sincerely hope the Holy Spirit will open your eyes to how blind and lost you are.

          • Robbie

            I suppose we are all lost in a certain sense. I see myself – and mankind in general – as a tiny part of the natural order here for a brief while and then gone.

          • WTS/JAY

            Strange, but you sound just like one of those “Bible-thumpers” you are condemning.

            Btw, are you saying that homosexuality is a sin, and it ought to be treated on the same level as fornication and adultery?

          • Robbie

            I was pointing out what the Bible says. Personally I don’t think homosexuality is a sin in the least. I do have some quams about those who cheat on their spouse but – for the most part – I am not much concerned about what others do in their bedrooms. Two of my best friends are guy and they are the nicest folks I know. I generally evaluate people based on the effect their actions will have on others be it positive or negative. Homosexuality is a perfectly natural occurance in a certain percentage of the population. It is innate, not learned behaviour and as such is just another interesting facet of the human condition.

          • WTS/JAY

            Nice recovery, Robbie!

    • WTS/JAY

      Alex: From the historical record, we can ascertain that Jesus was very likely Gay. By reading the Sermon On the Mount—words so important to Jesus that he had them recorded—we know that Jesus was a Socialist.

      So you think Jesus was very likely gay and a socialist, huh?

      Psychological projection is a defence mechanism in which a person unconsciously rejects his or her own unacceptable attributes by ascribing them to objects or persons in the outside world.

      So what are you trying to tell us, Alex; that you are gay and a socialist and you find both attributes unacceptable, except in Jesus? Do you think that if Charles Manson were to read the sermon on the mount he would most likely conclude that Jesus was a mass-murderer?

      • Dave

        Jay,
        So Jesus supported capitalism as practiced in America since the industrial age? Source please?
        Jesus was more of a communist. He decried the plight of the poor and shamed the wealthy and insisted everyone shared the bounties before us. If a man came and said these things to you today, you would call that person a communist.

        • WTS/JAY

          Again, like Alex, you are projecting. Jesus never did, nor does He now, support communism; “If a man will not work, neither shall he eat”, is not something a communist would say. Wouldn’t you agree? So yes, Jesus supported “Capitalism”, but without the greed. And no, Jesus was not/is a socialist. And no, He did not support Socialism. At least not the kind of socialism you are suggesting, which is an inverted form of greedy-capitalism

  • Dave

    Isn’t interesting that the path to eternal damnation, according to the hyper-religious has to do with a person’s sexuality… But greed is ok.

    • WTS/JAY

      No, the path to eternal damnation is “Godlessness”.

      • Joseph Hammond

        But “greed” is still okay?

        • WTS/JAY

          You know, i once had a professor who use to say; “There is no such thing as a stupid question”. What do you think?

          No, “greed” is not okay, Joseph. But neither is “greed” a by-product of capitalism, as is always touted by the idiotic-left!

      • ridge runner

        Ever see any democrat socialist that doesn’t think they are elitist gods of some abhorant pukes.

  • ridge runner

    The Democrat Party only beleives and behaves in abhorant ideas and beleifs that conflict with nature, that is why the muslim perverts embrace the democrat ideals and behaviors. Take their veiws of females, nothing but worthless sluts to be used and abused and to be thrown aside or just tools for the party, in ways that show every little respect for any life.