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Documents About Vietnam War May Be Declassified

February 18, 2011 by  

Documents about Vietnam War may be declassifiedThe recent WikiLeaks scandal is widely considered the biggest national security leak since the release of the Pentagon Papers in 1971, which detailed the lies and deceptive tactics of the United States government regarding the Vietnam War.

Although the public gained access to the documents through media reports, the Federal government may finally declassify the papers 40 years later. According to The Associated Press, the National Declassification Center of the National Archives is working to declassify the full text of the Pentagon Papers, as well as the investigative material about the leak of the documents.

The Pentagon Papers, which revealed that the government knew the Vietnam War was going to be deadlier and more difficult to win than the public knew, were released by Daniel Ellsberg, a former military analyst who had top security clearance.

WikiLeaks founder Julian Assange is a modern-day Ellsberg because of his knack for infuriating top government officials. Last year, Assange's website released approximately 250,000 diplomatic cables that revealed top-secret American foreign relations' intelligence and strategies.

High-profile defense attorney Alan Dershowitz recently joined Assange's legal team as he faces criminal charges overseas. During an interview with CNN, Dershowitz said that he is working with British lawyers on the American aspects of the lawsuits.

"I will be focusing on 1st and 4th Amendment issues, freedom of press and freedom of association, and limitations on the government’s power to intrude on these rights," Dershowitz told the media outlet. "I will also be interested in helping to develop the law involving the new electronic media." 

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  • s c

    It’s too bad that it took this long to get this far. Lots of people will have to run for the shadows when/if some of the juicier details are released. The real reasons why America got involved in Vietnam need to be made public.
    With another Vietnam on our hands, we deserve to know what our “leaders” will do to keep the VA functioning. I’d like to know why our best and brightest minds don’t know the difference between war and peace. And I’d dearly love to know why the puppet masters who manipulate our “leaders” aren’t behind bars or standing in front of a firing squad.

    • eddie47d

      I can actually agree with SC.

      • Vigilant

        eddie, you’d agree with anything that makes America look bad. If you had a shred of honesty, you’d admit it.

        • eddie47d

          I’m not a part of your “America right or Wrong crowd” if that is what you mean.

          • Vigilant

            That’s not what I mean, and if you had a rudimentary understanding of the English language you would know exactly what I mean.

    • TheAZCowBoy

      Cause they live in Israel….

      • http://none THOMAS PAIN

        YOU SAID IT COWBOY!!!!

      • Lastmanstanding

        Can you or anyone provide any credible info on that post?

      • http://naver samurai

        What the h*** does Israel have to do with Vietnam? Too much kool aid! 하나님 하고 나라를 위해서! FOR GOD AND COUNTRY!

        • Vigilant

          samurai, that was a response to the question as to “why the puppet masters who manipulate our “leaders” aren’t behind bars or standing in front of a firing squad.”

          Much as they try to hide it, the NWO bunch still buys into the same anti-Semitic canard that the NAZIs used to get support for their Jewish pogroms leading up to and during the war.

          • http://naver samurai

            Well said, fellow patriot. FOR GOD AND COUNTRY!

    • Bruce D.

      I was surprised a top general in the Vietnam military recently wrote a book saying that the North was just a few days from surrender when the American Military started pulling out. He said their only hope throughout the war was the American media. He felt they aided in the North Vietnam’s victory and would not have won without them. I did not know that.

      • Vigilant

        Bruce, the general is correct. Thanks to the lefties in the media (Cronkite, Frank Reynolds, others), the war was painted in terms unflattering to the US, to the point of making the 1968 Tet offensive look like a victory for the communists, when it was a clear victory for the US.

    • Dogma-Free “The Trinity”

      I had heard Vietnam was about oil in the Tonkin Gulf, but that’s just what I had heard from a guy who was dating a girl in Costa Rica. He said her dad had told him that.

      I mean, I suppose it was all about ‘fighting communism’, but I’m starting to wonder if that’s just some sort of a sham/ploy anymore, and that most conflicts are all about money, and nothing more.

      I mean, even the founders of your beloved Tea Party, got their start working with the Bolsheviks, and helping and training them, and so really, the Koch brothers helped to establish modern-day Communism.

      What I’d really like to see, and that can’t be far off, is the declassification of the documents from the JFK assassination. Then again, I wonder if we ever really will know the real truth there.

      • Vigilant

        Dogma-loaded,

        “I had heard Vietnam was about oil in the Tonkin Gulf, but that’s just what I had heard from a guy who was dating a girl in Costa Rica. He said her dad had told him that.”

        Yes, that’s a knowledgable source. Pull your head out, man! Exploration/exploitation of oil in the Gulf wasn’t even an item of concern until 1975 when China and Vietnam started territorial disputes over the Spratly Islands.

        • eddie47d

          Were you born yesterday Vigilante? Chevron,Exxon,Mobile and I believe Standard had the coastal areas of So Vietnam plotted out at least by 1973 when I saw the map.

          • Vigilant

            Both of you quote personal indirect experience. I report documented history.

  • http://www.DownsizeCa.org JKeyes

    For all of the people who wanted Us out of Viet Nam: The blood of Pol Pot is on your hands.

    • eddie47d

      Not necessarily and probably not true at all. The Vietnam war was a farce because it started under false pretenses. (The Gulf of Tonkin Incident and the earlier cancellation of free elections by Eisenhower. They feared China would take over Southeast Asia and covertly supported the French. When the French lost they created reasons to keep us over there. The problem is that China and North Vietnam did not like each other and had a few border disputes.We falsely assumed that China would come in on the side of the North. We even sent troops into Laos(covertly). Cambodia was a neutral nation and didn’t want the involvement they were being dragged into.The North did cut trails along their border to enter the South but had no intentions of taking over Cambodia. The US invaded Cambodia and found precious little but it stirred up the nationalists on all sides. The Kymer Rouges of Cambodia took advantage of their country being invaded by the US and went to war against their own government. They won and the killing fields became history. Pol Pot became the enemy of his own people but it should have taught America to stop encroaching into other nations territory. Right or wrong we need to be smarter in how we treat other nations and their sovereignty and understand the consequences of our doing so.

      • Uncle Ho

        The US invaded Cambodia and found precious little?

        Cache after Cache after Cache after Cache, maps etc.

        Eddie do your home work.

        • eddie47d

          Compared to what? Precious little in what they did expect to find so you go do your homework.

          • bob wire

            We pushed them back beyond 105 range, some 15 miles, we were there looking for a fight and to let them know, we could get them if we wanted too and didn’t necessary have to stop at the border. They had been making raids on villages and ducking back across the border and our standing orders had been to not follow.

            That’s what I got out of it ~ but hey? I wasn’t running anything, I was just there, a victim of life circumstances, doing what I was told.

            I hated about the kids in Ohio. I wish I could have talked to them ~ I wonder if they would have listened. They might have spit on me.

          • Jack 70 vet

            What they found was the largest cache of weapons in the entire war. Try to be a little more responsible for what comes out of your mouth.

        • bob wire

          Lots of red mud, land mines and small arms fire.

          We did come across an encampment with concrete sidewalks and a swimming pool. ~ Nobody home, ~ guess they heard us coming. That gasoline V`12 M48 sounds like an angry 60 ton monster is coming. I’d ran too!

          It was clear the north had been there awhile and planed on staying.

      • Bruce D.

        What event brought the US to the vietnam war?
        Answer
        The “Tonkin Incident,” where a Vietnamese boat fired at a U.S. battleship in the Gulf of Tonkin.
        Because of the attack, congress gave the president the power to help South Vietnam defend itself against the communist North Vietnam.
        We were also obligated to assist the defense of South Vietnam from the North through our membership in the South East Asia Treaty Organization (SEATO).
        Read more: http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_event_brought_the_US_to_the_vietnam_war#ixzz1ELFKzobs

        • James

          Bruce D., Why was our battleship there?

      • Bruce D.

        “The Cambodian–Vietnamese War, also known as the Third Indochina War, began on December 25, 1978 when Vietnam invaded Democratic Kampuchea (Cambodia). The People’s Army of Vietnam (PAVN) achieved a rapid victory in two weeks, seizing the capital city, Phnom Penh, on January 7, 1979.[2] A portion of the ousted Khmer Rouge regime, however, would survive to stage a counterinsurgency campaign against the Vietnamese sponsored state, the People’s Republic of Kampuchea (PRK), compelling Vietnam to maintain troops in the country for the next decade.[3] Although Vietnam received financial backing from the Soviet Union and Comecon (the Council for Mutual Economic Assistance) throughout its intervention, it faced diplomatic and economic isolation from the majority of the international community.”

      • Bruce D.

        After the democrats cut off funding to South Vietnam they did not have enough money to buy gasoline for their armored vehicles.
        “On 7 April, three North Vietnamese divisions attacked Xuan Loc, 40 miles (64 km) east of Saigon. The North Vietnamese met fierce resistance at Xuan Loc from the ARVN 18th Division, who were outnumbered six to one. For two bloody weeks, severe fighting raged as the ARVN defenders made a last stand to try to block the North Vietnamese advance. By 21 April, however, the exhausted garrison were ordered to withdraw towards Saigon.
        “An embittered and tearful President Thieu resigned on the same day, declaring that the United States had betrayed South Vietnam. In a scathing attack, he suggested U.S. Secretary of State Henry Kissinger had tricked him into signing the Paris peace agreement two years ago, promising military aid that failed to materialise.”

      • http://marcum1@wildblue.net coal miner

        eddie47d,

        You hit the nail dead center.I agree with you one hundred percent

      • Vigilant

        eddie says, “We falsely assumed that China would come in on the side of the North.”

        And so the Soviets came in instead. What’s your point?

        • eddie47d

          Our intelligence community wasn’t as on top of things as they had predicted. They even got the Soviet’s future involvement wrong.

          • http://?? Joe H.

            eddie,
            If you think china wasn’t involved in the Viet Nam war you are as brain dead as we all thought you were!!! There were Chicom weapons captured as there were even a few chinese nationals captured and KIA!!!

    • bob wire

      Well Bubby, I think I’ve got very use to blood being on my hands by now and while I was not fighting to get us out or fighting to stay in, I was fighting to stay alive.

      I was a young man and held no opinions, we called ourselves soldiers. You can’t have a nation without them, Blood? You bet cha,~ lots of blood and it continued to flow long after we left country.

      • http://?? Joe H.

        bob,
        you mean like the ‘Yards that fought side by side with our troops with what ever they could get their hands on, even old crossbows they made? Yeah, their blood is on the hands of the order givers as well!! good people that died in bad ways!!

        • eddie47d

          I’ll agree with you on that one Joe. The Montagnards were hard workers and tremendously loyal. They would work when the Vietnamese laborers would sit on their butts.

          • Vigilant

            Gee, eddie, that sounds like a racial stereotype to me. If you’re going to be a liberal, you better start acting like one.

          • eddie47d

            Vigilante; You are an ignorant fool. How many Montagnards did you work with? False accusations will get you nowhere so go peddle your mis- information somewhere else.

    • TheAZCowBoy

      As I see thngs now, Pol Plot was a boy scout compared to McNamara and Westmoreland. Pol Plot would have had to lived to age 125 to have murdered as many innocent civilians as these two unindicted war criminals. Now we have the ‘other’ two ‘genocidal twins’ (McChrystal and Petraeus) to help the racist people of AmeriKKKa, expand their legacy of genocide against the downtrodden people of AF/Pak, Yeman, Somalia and yes, Palestine.

      TheAZCowBoy
      Tombstone, AZ.

      • Bruce D.

        If South Vietnam had won that war it would have been another success story as is South Korea. No one killed more civilians than the North Vietnamese. When you lose you are only left with the bad.

      • Bruce D.

        Keep it real CowBoy:
        “Isolated atrocities committed by American soldiers produced torrents of outrage from antiwar critics and the news media while Communist atrocities were so common that they received hardly any attention at all. The United States sought to minimize and prevent attacks on civilians while North Vietnam made attacks on civilians a centerpiece of its strategy. From 1957 to 1973, the National Liberation Front assassinated 36,725 South Vietnamese and abducted another 58,499. The death squads focused on leaders at the village level and on anyone who improved the lives of the peasants such as medical personnel, social workers, and schoolteachers.”

      • Bruce D.

        “North Vietnamese troops or their guerrilla Viet Cong surely committed more democide than that for which I have been able to find estimates. Throughout the guerrilla period and during the war they shelled and attacked civilians in strategic hamlets and refugee camps, attacked refugees fleeing on the roads in order to create chaos, shelled civilians in most government controlled cities and towns, and purposely mined and booby-trapped civilian areas (as of mining roads traveled by civilian buses). Moreover, thousands or tens of thousands were abducted to disappear forever, but are not included here under assassinations and executions.”

      • Bruce D.

        “Reeducation camp (Vietnamese: trại học tập cải tạo) is the official title given to the prison camps operated by the government of Vietnam following the end of the Vietnam War. In such “reeducation camps”, the government imprisoned several hundred thousand former military officers and government workers from the former regime of South Vietnam. Reeducation as it was implemented in Vietnam was seen as both a means of revenge and a sophisticated technique of repression and indoctrination, ‘which developed for several years in the North’ and was extended to the South following the 1975 North Vietnam takeover.”
        Evidently citizens in North Vietnam were also taught patriotism by torture as is with most communist countries.

        • http://marcum1@wildblue.net coal miner

          BruceD,

          R.J. Rummel’s mid-level estimated that 65,000 North Vietnamese Civilians died from 1960-1975.[27] Furthermore, he estimates that in the 1957 to 1975 period the North Vietnamese government executed around 50,000 North Vietnamise civilians (most were executed by 1960).[28]

          • http://naver samurai

            More than that were killed by our bombing raids, coal dungger. 하나닌 하고 나라를 위해서! FOR GOD AND COUNTRY!

      • Vigilant

        AZ Cowboy’s take on the killing fields of Cambodia is wrong, wrong, wrong, as is his mathematics.

        From Wikipedia: “The most widely accepted estimate, from scholar Ben Kiernan, is that about 1.7 million people were killed. It is described by the Yale University Cambodian Genocide Program as, “one of the worst human tragedies of the last century.” Researcher Craig Etcheson of the Documentation Center of Cambodia suggests that the death toll was between 2 and 2.5 million, with a “most likely” figure of 2.2 million.”

        Cowboy, it’s your turn.

        • http://naver samurai

          The communists would call it purging. FOR GOD AND COUNTRY!

  • Mary

    War is made for financial or egotistical gain by those who would benefit, not by the normal, everyday working man or woman. As the saying goes, “Follow the money”.

  • mark

    The best way for the US to stay out of Foreign Wars is to pass a law that when the USA gets involved in a conflict that the President’s, COngressmen’s, Senator’s sons and daughters have to be in the frint lines. Do you r3eally believe that Bush would have invaded Iraq if his daughtes would have been forced to be in the front lines of that invasion? NO!!! Do you believe that LBJ would have invaded Vietnam if his lovely daughters would have had to fight the Viet Cong? NO!!! It is so easy for our leaderes to have our children fight their stupid wars when their children get to sit at home and enjoy their spoiled life styles.

    • Robert Smith

      The current military of the United States is an all volunteer force.

      They joined for all the reasons folks join the military. For some it is combat, but for many it’s the cushy life of peacetime. Sometimes war interrupts their lifestyle. I have no sympathy for them.

      If the draft were in place and we had a civilian army then your “argument” would have some basis, but we wouldn’t be at war because the mothers and fathers of those in the military would have boted to stop it.

      Rob

      • Bruce D.

        I agree. The draft would shed a totally different light on the subject.

      • Vigilant

        “They joined for all the reasons folks join the military. For some it is combat, but for many it’s the cushy life of peacetime. Sometimes war interrupts their lifestyle. I have no sympathy for them.”

        They don’t ask for your sympathy, knucklehaed.

        I enlisted in 1966 (during the draft), and stayed for 24 years (after it turned to all volunteer). Your sweeping condemnation of people in the military is repugnant to all decent folks.

        Volunteer or no, that military person writes a blank check to his country, payable up to and including death. “No sympathy for them?” Me neither, but I’ve got one HELL of a lot of respect for them.

        You would have (perhaps did) spit on veterans returning from Vietnam. You have not a scintilla of honor in your soul!

        • Vigilant

          Make that “knucklehead,” a mistake in spelling but no mistake in sentiment.

        • Jaguar

          I agree 100 percent. As a Vietnam vet, I was one of those that were spit upon. I got out in 1978… got one HELL of a welcome home!

          • http://deleted Claire

            If and when our soldiers come home from this useless war, my husband and I will go after ANYONE that spits or treats our soldiers inhumanely. Sorry folks, but I find it absolutely disgusting that during Obama’s campaign he promised to bring our troops home, instead he has prolonged the situation. Seems like the entire current government wants to continue with this sham.
            And remember the way the government treated the Vietnam vets–this is unacceptable. I will never forgive them for this.

        • Pete

          Hey Vigilant,

          The only thing the Vietnam veterans did wrong (when they got off the plane) was to not spit back ! They should have beaten the H E double toothpicks out of the antiwar “welcoming” committee ….

          They should have gone beserk !

    • Steve

      Remember Eisenhower’s final speech…”Beware of the military industrial complex”….that’s where wars are started….that’s who keeps wars going on forever and ever…the defense contractors who make billions off of wars are the ones who should have their sons and daughters on the front lines…like stated above “follow the money”

    • Uncle Ho

      MARK Says
      Do you believe that LBJ would have invaded Vietnam if his lovely daughters would have had to fight the Viet Cong?

      Mark did you fall asleep in class? LBJ DID NOT invade South Vietnam.

      If, could of, would of, should of.Means nothing. Try data you will gain more credibility.

      • eddie47d

        We illegally (under false pretenses) went into So. Vietnam,we assassinated Diem and set up a puppet government.That is an invasion of a nations sovereignty. We weren’t exactly up front .

      • Bruce D.

        “The commitment to defend South Vietnam was reaffirmed by Kennedy on May 11 in National Security Action Memorandum 52, which became known as “The Presidential Program for Vietnam”. Its opening statement reads:
        U.S. objectives and concept of operations [are] to prevent communist domination of South Vietnam; to create in that country a viable and increasingly democratic society, and to initiate, on an accelerated basis, a series of mutually supporting actions of a military, political, economic, psychological, and covert character designed to achieve this objective.[7]“

      • http://marcum1@wildblue.net coal miner

        Uncle Ho,

        We inherit it from the French:
        The “Vietnam War”, which was a civil war was well underway long before the US had any involvement, Kennedy sent additional American ‘advisors’ for a total of 16.200 (an increase of 4.000) from IKE’s build-up after.

        Kennedy had nothing to do with the start of the the Vietnam conflict. It was a civil war in Vietnam.

        Eisenhower sent the first “advisors” into Vietnam on 12 February 1955. There were between 9-12 thousand US military serving in Vietnam when President Kennedy took office.

        • Bruce D.

          There is a big difference between advisors and combat troops.

          • eddie47d

            Not necessarily although it could be. People were killed under these advisors so the message was fairly clear. The same in Central America where our advisors helped unleash several wars. Our CIA was in several countries advising and they still are. If they are helping to overthrow a government like in Vietnam then that is starting a war.

          • Bruce D.

            Eddie are you saying Kennedy was trying to over through the South Vietnam government? I have never heard anyone express that viewpoint before.

          • http://marcum1@wildblue.net coal miner

            BruceD.

            Those so called advisors had weapons.My cousin was one of them.

          • eddie47d

            Kennedy had knowledge of the overthrow but said he wouldn’t intervene.CIA had direct contact with the plotters but allowed the assassinations to happen. Ngo Diem and his brother Ngo Dinh Nhu were executed on Nov.3rd,1963.Kennedy was assassinated 3 weeks later so our nation had other things on their mind. The plotters said Diem wasn’t hard enough on the Buddhist monks and wanted them to be dealt with. That lead to more Buddhist protests and the self immolations.

  • Thomas Jackson

    With another Vietnam on our hands, we deserve to know what our “leaders” will do to keep the VA functioning. I’d like to know why our best and brightest minds don’t know the difference between war and peace. And I’d dearly love to know why the puppet masters who manipulate our “leaders” aren’t behind bars or standing in front of a firing squad.

    I agree with that statement. To many things were not done right,boy that is an understatement. I contracted Lupus of the skin from some of the [offensive word removed] I came in contact with, along with a severe case of ptsd.
    It would have only taken the continued bombing of Hanoi to win that war. Proven after the paris peace talks broke down.

    • http://?? Joe H.

      Thomas,
      In the Documentary titled Viet Nam the 10,000 Day War, the commanding General of the NVA said that had the bombing of Hanoi continued they would have been begging to come to the peace table. Out of the blue the bombing stopped and they achieved their second wind and ended up winning the war. In reality they didn’t win the war, the MSM won it for them, something I will never forgive them for! They are responsible for many American lives being lost!

      • eddie47d

        No, many American lives were lost because we sent them to a place where they shouldn’t have been. All wars are part of any plan for a New World Order.Patriotism is only a side show for that Military Industrial Complex and our government knew how to use it. Reality of most wars has little to do with the troops who had to serve. Their service should be respected and honored but not those who put them in harms way.

        • http://marcum1@wildblue.net coal miner

          eddie47d,

          America’s involvement in Vietnam ended in 1973. The war had cost her one billion dollars a day at its peak; she had dropped 7 million tons of bombs – more than the entire total of all participants in World War Two. The cost of the war in 1968 alone was $88,000 million while the combined spending on education, health and housing in that year was $24,000 million.

          • http://?? Joe H.

            coal miner,
            Guess again! our involvment ended in 1975!!!

  • http://northrope@comcast.net j. g. northrop

    no human being on this planet wants war or go to war. only those micro percentage of people instigate war for their own pleasure. let those who say war go to it…. recent uprising in the middle east is the wave of the future..Iran, libya, no. korea, sudan, and others, your time has come. democracy, peace and the love of god will prevail.

    • TheAZCowBoy

      Re: ‘No human being wants to go to war – What hole have you been living in Bubba?

      As the world’s supply of oil dwindles just watch how many opportunists will be willing to go and savage these 3rd world countries that have residual oil deposits that haven’t been cost effective enough to exploit til now.

      Kudos to Venezuela, Bolivia and Iran, demonize them as the US/EU oil/gas robber barons do, their exploitation of the US/EU robber baron oil/gas companies, while utilizing the profits of their natural resources to better the lot of their own people will be the new national anthem for these and other oil producing countries.

      TheAZCowBoy
      Tombstone, AZ.

      • Bruce D.

        I think your post pretty much sums up the viewpoints of the left and how they view dictators like Chavez in Venezuela who will never allow himself to be voted out of office. With that kind of viewpoint you would think the left would allow us to drill for oil right here in our own country.

        • bob wire

          why must it always be some kind of right or left thing?

          I admit it’s simple but fails miserably to define or offer any understanding of anything. ~ If that’s the only dimension of understanding that you have, someone has has failed you along the way. They either gave up or just didn’t care, not seeing it worth the bother.

          • Bruce D.

            No one on the right would have that kind of viewpoint Bob so why don’t you want to own it.

          • http://?? Joe H.

            bob,
            the a$$ said that the Iranian leaders are looking to better the lives of their people???? Are he and you BOTH stupid??? There are innocent Iranian citizens being shot and stoned all the time just for WANTING a betterlife!! And you lefties call them GOOD?!?!?!?

          • eddie47d

            To make it clear neither Bob or I have shown support for Chavez or Ahmadinejad. They are both dictators who stiffle many rights.That doesn’t mean we want war or CIA activities going on against any nation either. Chavez blew it with many when he tried to be President for life.Nobody is that good.

          • bob wire

            I don’t think you know what you are talking about ~ or maybe IT’S I that don’t know ~ are you changing subjects or just astro-traveling ?

          • bob wire

            I take exception to the labeling ! How can all the wrongs and rights of the world be divided left or right? You explain that two dimensional universe to me will you? I find it complete absurd!

            We must to get beyond these two dimensions to ever have any meaningful discussion. I can’t carry the conversation on my own.

            Maybe that’s best in this case. You people seem to know the “LEFT” better then you know yourselves,~ and I suppose anything “not you” is left?

          • http://?? Joe H.

            bob,
            Obviously you and eddie aren’t paying too much attention to what you answer to in your posts! AZ cowboy said that the iranians leaders were trying to better things for their citizens!! you agreed with him when BruceD called him on his post! Do you two understand NOW????

          • Bruce D.

            The way you describe Chavez Eddie sounds like you are not quite as far left as Sean Penn but you are still playing in the same ballpark, and still in left field. Kennedy, you, Jovious, are all playing the same game with only shades of differences. Bob Wire is all over the place so I will cut him some slack.

          • eddie47d

            With your way of thinking Bruce you must be in bed with Mubarak,Pinochet and the Generals of Myanmar. You want to make ridiculous accusations then we’ll play it forward.

    • http://marcum1@wildblue.net coal miner

      JoeH,

      The Vietnam War can be separated into different periods based upon the United States involvement. From 1957 to 1965, the war was mainly a struggle between the South Vietnamese army and Communist-trained South Vietnamese rebels known as the Viet Cong. The U.S. provided military advisors. The first U.S. troops entered Vietnam in March 1965. Until 1969, North Vietnam and the United States did most of the fighting. By 1969, the Vietnam War seemed endless, and the United States slowly began to withdraw troops. In January 1973, a cease-fire was arranged. The last U.S. ground troops left Vietnam two months later. Despite the treaty fighting between North and South Vietnam resumed soon afterward, but U.S. troops did not return. The war finally ended on April 30, 1975 when South Vietnam surrendered to North Vietnam.

  • Sprock

    It is about time. While they are at it how about declassifying the Iran / Contra files too. It is high time to get all this out on the table.

  • Tom Anderson

    The maximum Fed Tax rates during WW1 and WW2 were over 90%. We have been having lots of non-declared (read unconstitutional) wars without Americans PAYING for them. In fact, WE are not paying for Iraq or Afghan – we borrow the money from the Chinese to pay for those wars. Hence the mess that we are in.

    The Chinese know this and will continue to loan our military money so that WE fight the Moslems. It is better that a God-fearing country like the USA fight another God-fearin country like Iraq rather than an atheist communist nation fight Iraq.

    Our US Soldiers are simply mercenaries for the Chinese.

    “Beware the Military-Industrial Complex” – - Boy! Was Eisenhower naive!

    • Uncle Ho

      What it costs to fund the Iraq and Afghan wars is chump change compared to what it cost to fund all the programs for illegal aliens.

      • http://aol Bill

        Wrong, Bush spent almost 20% of our present dept on Iraq’s phoney war on WMD. Then the repubs plame it on Obama.

        • Uncle Ho

          Data please.

          • bob wire

            “Bush Military Budget Highest Since WWII
            by William D. Hartung

            Even by Bush administration standards, the military spending proposal for Fiscal Year 2008 – the budget year beginning on October 1, 2007 — is enormous. The request for the “regular” military budget, which includes Pentagon spending plus work on nuclear warheads and naval reactors at the Department of Energy, was $499 billion. This represents a $46 billion increase from the current budget year.

            http://www.commondreams.org/views07/0210-26.htm

            Figures for the regular military budget exclude the costs of the current wars that the United States is engaged in. A proposed supplemental appropriation to pay for the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq of $141.7 billion brings proposed military spending for FY 2008 to $647.2 billion, the highest level of military spending since the end of World War II – higher than Vietnam, higher than Korea, higher than the peak of the Reagan buildup. There will also be a proposed supplemental of $93.4 billion added to this year’s (FY 2007) budget, bringing the total for the year to $622.4 billion. “

          • http://marcum1@wildblue.net coal miner
          • http://?? Joe H.

            bob,
            such a nice progressive site you show us!!!! check out “who we are” at the top of your site!! they would do and say ANYTHING to further the `progressive cause!!

          • bob wire

            Hmm? ~ Sorry Joe! so I was to shop for something more pleasing to your appetite? Back to the old left and right again.

            Could I not say the same thing about any selection you might offer? ~ Oh NO! I don’t like that one, just too rightish! Information must be affiliated and given the seal of approval for consumption.

            Well, ~ Joe , I read it all and in doing do, I’m not quick to form an opinion. I enjoy hearing all sides. I don’t carry a predisposition, until I’m given good reason to have one.

            The numbers are there, ~ I wasn’t aware they could be GOP or DNC numbers. There’s a host of other links , pick one.

            “W” spent a ton of loot on the military ( it got to where, sometimes the enemy was paid to not attack, which really hurt the enemy that was already not attacking feeling) So guess how they showed their disenchantment? ! what a mess of a war.

            Unaccounted for Greenbacks have been pouring out of the US by the suitcase load 7 of the last 10 years of this “war” and into the hands of the enemy.

            Do you question that?

            and that’s just the unaccounted for money.

            and we wonder why money is scarce and we are having to print more money.

            We’ve been giving it away like we were Santa Claus.

        • http://naver samurai

          Site your sources on that nonsense you’ve just stated. FOR GOD AND COUNTRY!

      • Bruce D.

        It cost Florida hospitals over one hundred million dollars a year for illegal aliens who come into the emergency room. The Federal government told one hospitals they will not deport anyone who comes into the hospital unless they are wanted for a crime other than illegal entry. One man bill was over one million dollars. The hospital paid $30,000 to send him home and now he has a lawyer that is suing the hospital for sending him home. Is it any wonder health care costs are so high. Americans need to wake up to this problem. Most on the left act like there is an unlimited amount of money to spend on just about everything.

        • Vicki

          Bruce D. writes:
          “Most on the left act like there is an unlimited amount of money to spend on just about everything.”

          Since the fed gets the treasury to print trillions of pieces of paper with ink on it and call it money I would assert that the left is correct.

          • http://marcum1@wildblue.net coal miner

            Vicki,

            Do you mean George Bush is on the left?Wonders never cease.

          • Bruce D.

            True, but the more you print the less it is worth which can spiral out of control. Europe also is being forced to confront this same issue to maintain socialism. We will see where it leads and how it ends up. I hope not as badly as many on this site predict.

          • Bruce D.

            Most Constitutional Conservative feel George Bush was on the left when it came to spending and immigration reform. No matter how many times that is stated on this forum it always seems to come as a surprise to some who try to impose the idea that no one on the right disagreed with Bush, then and now.

          • bob wire

            I got this wild notion that money needs to be inside a closed circuit or loop. In this way can it move about and be used, leveraged and seen.

            When money is spent outside the loop or horded or simple “lost” that money is no longer in the circuit or available.

            So have we lost money, is it being horded or is the loop now so large we will never see it’s return?

          • Bruce D.

            Money is being horded Bob because people are in fear of investing it in uncertain times. Business is in fear of expanding because of an unfriendly environment. Investors and that includes average people have looked for safety rather than profit. Banks are not loaning money. Fifty billion in trade deficit is going offshore and staying offshore along with investments. Imagine if all that money offshore was dumped. You would see hyperinflation like you never saw before in your life. Basically Bob, America is losing its wealth and it will not come back unless we do something about energy, the trade imbalance, or create something of value. We may not even want the dollar to come back from overseas unless we have something of value to offer for it or we will have hyper inflation.

  • http://com i41

    If the military complex is so powerful, why has military had to devolpe a way to use coal as a way to keep their planes in the air. The military spent several millions to try to use bateries, they never work, only on wheelchairs. Take the wasting of money by the green enviro nuts and airy fairy crap. The major reason we get f–ked when we fight is like ever war we have been in, the beltway lard azzes meddling. When we went to Iraq, we shot azz wipes with a gun running around, then socialist bastards started whining we should play nice, war isn’t nice,shot the goat abusers and let St Peter sort it out. If you ones that claim you were in Nam, then you know LBJ and his sow wife made lots of money, and the arm chair dinks in Washington were always handing down idoit rules of engagement. Nixon brought the slants to the talble with blowing them to hell, should have kept it up a little longer.

    • eddie47d

      You left the industrial out of the Military Industrial Complex. You know the Haliburtons and Blackwaters who make a killing by using and abusing the taxpayer for monetary gain. War is hell but not for some.

      • http://marcum1@wildblue.net coal miner

        eddie474,

        Here is what then late William F.Buckley said.

        William F. Buckley, Jr., widely acknowledged as the founder of the modern conservative movement in America, wrote of the Iraq war, “If I knew then, what I know now about what kind of situation we would be in, I would have opposed the war.”

        • http://marcum1@wildblue.net coal miner

          What do you think?

          • eddie47d

            I agree with Buckley and always have on our involvement in the Iraq War.

          • Vigilant

            caol miner and eddie,

            Then let’s hear your take on Obama keeping the fires alive and spending gazillions on unwinnable wars.

          • eddie47d

            Don’t you read very well Vigilante? I said I was against the Iraq War and now you want us to repeat it . Feel better now! Obama,Nixon,Bush,Johnson,Reagan all birds of a feather when it comes to war.

          • Vigilant

            My reading comprehension is much better than yours, airhead. Tell me why Obama’s not on your list of “war presidents.”

  • Uncle Ho

    Look, there are posters that are comparing the Global War on Terrorism to the Vietnam War. It is not true you cannot seriously compare the two.
    The only similarities are the weapons that the enemy uses, AK47, RPG, Dushka AA gun, mortars, Katusha rockets IEDs etc. We are taking the fight to them as we did in Vietnam. The tactics are counter terrorism which Westmorland, Powell, and most our leaders in the Vietnam war failed to apply. Special operators understood and applied it as did John Paul Van. Another simularity is that the midea is trying desperatly to cause us to loose the Global War on terror as did Cronkite in Vietnam. It would behoove any one that really wants to know how close we were to North Vietnam’s surrender, should read General Gaip’s memoirs.

    • Bruce D.

      I could not remember the General’s name but I just wrote a post on him. I was surprised to read that people were complaining about the standard of living in Hanoi recently. They did not like the government spending 150 million on a communist celebration when the infrastructure was in such poor condition. I have read they give the workers half of the profits in the factories for an incentive to work. I have also read they expanded their money supply after the war which gave them short time success. But as with all paper currencies there is a time of reckoning for that and they are dealing with that right now.

  • Charles B

    OK! The real reason we got involved in So.Vietnam is because the then legal President of So. Vietnam requested Military help from President John F. Kennedy. My Unit the 232nd Combat Signal company was the first authorized Army unit into the country. I was stationed at Ton Son Nhut Airport where we installed the first communications for the Army.
    Later I work at MACV Headquarters Put in their com center. ^ members of my unit were killed in action by the Viet Cong. I went for two more tours as a Green Beret. I have NO REGRETS EITHER. Will they tell the truth that out of the 58,000 killed there that 65% where DIRECTLY DRUG related. Thanks for listening.

    • Bruce D.

      My friends that came back from Vietnam said that there was a lot of drug use also. If we had won that war it would have been celebrated as a great success story as is South Korea. Over a million civilians were murdered by the North soon after the democrats defunded the war around 1975.

      • Tom Anderson

        Yes, the DEMOS defunded Nam. They simply weren’t with the program.

        And few people recall that the GOP was EXTREMELY against getting involved in WW2 initially until Pearl H. Yes, there used to be a time when the GOP detested foreign “adventures – war”. Now the GOP never sees a squirmish that they can’t make a war out of. GREAT manipulation of the political process!

        This is the way it works now:

        1) one party starts a foreign war (without a congression declaration of war) – it is GENERALLY the DEMOS that have done this but in the past few decades the GOP has “seen the light” and don’t want to be left out

        2) Then the opposing party rants and raves and DEFUNDS the war

        Everyone makes out like bandits in the process. Wall Street hums and congressmen get elected on BOTH sides – PRO and CON. It is a great american game.

        If you are lucky, you can make out like DADDY WARBUCKS and make a fortune for your self too.

        Like 2 medal of Honor, General Smedley Butler said, “WAR IS A RACKET”.

        You just need to be on the side of the RACKET that is making all of the dough. LBJ, Cheney, Bush, FDR – - THEY ALLL knew that.

        And Bush did the right thing by invading Iraq. Of course there were WMDs there – we knew he gassed the Kurds. But the reason he invaded was to get rid of Iran’s worst enemy – Sadaam. This will set us up for a REAL war (not one of the Iraq or Afghan type messes of a few thousand dead US Soldiers) but a REAL war. There are going to be many fortunes made in this next war with Iran. Just be sure that you are well positioned with the military-industrial complex. To hell with those poor grunts on the ground. They deserve their LOT IN LIFE – they VOLUNTEERED. It is called, SURVIVAL OF THE FITTEST.

        • Bruce D.

          “Yes, the DEMOS defunded Nam. They simply weren’t with the program.”
          A program which DEMOS created by sending in combat troops. They started something they were not able to finish and it ended as badly as anything could.

    • Tom Anderson

      I agree with you Charles B. I also benefitted greatly from Nam. I worked at Travis AFB helping unload the “containers” which held the mushy remains of the guys killed over there. REALLY GOOD MONEY!! Typically, I got paid double time. I must have seen thousand of those aluminum containers (they had some sort of vacuum fittings on them which had to be unhooked when they went down the conveyor belts). It was like an assembly line. LBJ ordered that the planes ONLY be unloaded at night so that photos could not be taken. After sitting on the tarmac all day the interior of the planes would reach 160 degrees F or more and it turned the contents into MUSH. When the “cans” got to their ultimate destination they POURED OUT the content. They flew me up from SFO in a 707 to work each day. BOY! An empty 707 can really haul!

      What our country needs is more wars like Nam. It really got the economy humming. We can always find more guys to spill their guts in foreign wars – there is an endless supply, and I am a bit low on cash right now. Let’s go into Iran and bust nuts.

      I also understand that any illegal alien who signs up for Iraq or Afghan has a guaranteed route to US citizenship. The benefits just keep going.

      I am proud of my service to my country too! And Nam gave me a big economy “headstart” in life. A war with Iran can provide the same benefits to our yung-uns too.

      • http://naver samurai

        I don’t know what planet you came from, but it’s about time to go back. FOR GOD AND COUNTRY!

    • Lastmanstanding

      Charles B. Thanks for some real info. I had 2 cousins go to Vietnam. One came home scarred but proud (US Marine), the other is memorialized on the wall in DC. (he was a door gunner in the US Army)(medivac/transport) The scarred one was also a medic at 9-11 the day after it happened. A good friend of mine did several tours as a US Navy SEAL. Another was US Army Special Forces.

      My point?

      You tough bastards have a special place in my heart. I pray every day that you are able to find peace within yourselves.

      No reason to have regrets, they just f–k up a new day. Thank you for your service and sacrifices for our country…

      • Tom Anderson

        Thank YOU for your service and

        Thank YOU for YOUR service and

        Thank YOU for your service.

        Boy, that is a LOT better than having to hospitalize, care for, and offer jobs to those poor old grunts. I will THANK them for their service, I just will NOT pay for it.

        I see right thru THAT!!! Every guy who says, “Thank you for your service” just wants to avoid having his taxes to go up and to properly fund the Vets hospitals, etc. Just see all those poor old Vets on the street corners begging – - go ahead, just offer them “thanks for your service bull sh*t too”.

        Yes, I am also for perpetual war too, I just don’t want to pay for it. So I keep saying to all the old vets I meet, “thank you for your service”, now get back on your street corner.

        Invade Iraq and Afghan and Iran – we NEED those wars. And I always thank all of those VETS, I just don’t want to pay for it.

        Max tax rates during WW1 and WW2 were over 90% . We used to PAY for our wars – now we just “thank you for your service” – it is MUCH cheaper that way.

  • Fly By Night

    I repeat!!! It’s high time Obama and his wife take ANOTHER vacation!!!

  • Pete0097

    Thank you FDR, Harry Truman and the democrats for the Vietnam and Korean wars. If they had not subdivided those two countries, those wars would not have occured. After WWII, the US should have pulled out and supported those two countries.

    • bob wire

      Yea,~ and we would be eating sauerkraut and hog knuckles and doing the goose step like strutting peacocks with a corn cob up our butts today.

      You don’t like your neighbors? ~ burn them to ash and take their stuff! Make lamp shade of their skin, Take their young pretty women to toy with and send the ugly ones to the kitchen and fields.

      I believe you need to rethink it my friend or move some place where I don’t have to see and hear you.

      • Tom Anderson

        I happen to like sauerkraut, but I haven’t tried the cob-up-the-butt yet.

        The USA won EVERY war which the US Congress declared (official declaration of war). The USA has not WON any war in which there was NOT an official declaration of war.

        The USA did NOT win Grenada, Nam, Korea, Santo Domingo, Lebanon (200 Marines blown to smithereens – Reagan pulled out with tail between legs), Somalia (Clinton pulled out with tail …), Iraq, Afghan, etc etc

        The USA did win the Spanish American War, WW1, WW2 etc.

        Our modern “wars” don’t have anything to do with “protecting” the USA they are simply political and economic tools to spur the economy and to scare the US public with the boogeyman. And don’t misunderstand me, I believe that we NEED perpetual war, Wall Street would collapse without it. I just want to be on the “winning – profitable” side.

        Sometimes I feel sorry for those poor grunts on the ground, but they VOLUNTEERED – it isn’t a matter of “service” it is simply a job and they asked for it. Our poor guys in Nam and Korea did NOT volunteer – I still mourn their loss.

        • http://naver samurai

          We won Grenada moron! FOR GOD AND COUNTRY!

          • Tom Anderson

            Thank you, Mr. Samurai,

            I was hoping that someone would “nibble” at my comment about NOT winning Grenada. You didn’t “nibble”, you swallowed the hook and sinker!

            I am so sorry, I know that you are a victim of the Fox News idiots, but the facts are that the Grenada fiasco was initiated by CUBAN operatives (very FEW of them). Yes, we overwhelmed those CUBAN fanatics with thousands of US Marines (some lopsided fight) but we did NOT win THAT war! Fidel outlived Reagan and is still puttering along while Reagan is nourishing worms.

            To say that we “WON” in Grenada is the same as saying that we “WON” the war against Japan because we retook Hawaii. The enemy was CUBA NOT GRENADA and CUBA did not suffer defeat – NOR the USA. But I grant you, the USA won the squirmish in Grenada but NOT the war! Try some real history for a change you may find it refreshing.

            And we did NOT win in Iraq either. We simply removed the worst enemy of Iran FREE OF CHARGE. Now BOTH Iran and Iraq are Shiite – some victory? Why would we do such a GREAT favor for Iran?? I am still baffled about THAT.

          • http://naver samurai

            Sorry Tom, but through history if a country loses a battle, then the country has lost. If our soldiers go somewhere and are defeated in battle, who loses the U.S. or just the troops? The nation lost the battle and not just the troops. True that Castro has out lived Reagan and Cuba is still there, but try saying that to the students that were imprisoned their by Cuban troops under Fidel’s command. True the Cuban troops lost, but so did Castro. The CIC always loses when the troops lose, so does the nation. You talk about Iran? I’m watching and waiting to see what happens there. I don’t want to send troops there as we are very overextended in tropps and supply lines. 하나님 하고 나라를 위해서! FOR GOD AND COUNTRY!

  • Annabell

    I don’t remember very much about the Vietnam war, because I was too young. But the one thing I do remember is an article in the old large-sized LIFE magazine, with a picture of a South Vietnam soldier standing at the doorway of an American HQ of some kind. At his feet was a zipped body sack and an American soldier was unzipping the sack. The article stated that the American government had guaranteed a certain amount of money for each civilian body supposedly killed by American mortar-fire. It seems the South Vietnamese were getting amo from the Americans, going out and shooting their own civilians, then dragging them to the Americans demanding remuneration for them. I recall thinking/wondering, “Why are WE defending such a corrupt/shameful government, as they appear to be, in the first place?” In the years that followed, I came to realize that it WAS because ‘wars make money’…at all levels.

    • Tom Anderson

      Very enlightened, Annabell!

      Yes WARS make money and, more importantly, they elect politicians. Bush and Cheney KNEW they could get another term if they could just scare the bejesus of our the US public with WMDs and radical bearded Muslims.

      I was a teen in the thick of Nam. And I made GOBS of cash during that conflict – more than a teen should have made. I assisted in unloading thousands of “aluminum tubes” which held the remains of US soldiers at Travis AFB near Sacramento, Calif. Nam was a REAL war not like these piss-ant actions in Iraq or Afghan – over 50,000 US dead.

      There is NO difference between the GOP and the DEMOS on this issue. Both use WAR and threat of WAR to get themselves reelected. LBJ conjured up the Gulf of Tonkin attack (which never happened) to start Nam. Bush used WMD’s to start his war. Most people do NOT know the exact reason that NAZI Germany used to initiate their attack on Poland which started WW2 – it ALOS was a pure False Flag operation just like all of the US’s most recent “wars”.

      Now both the GOP and DEMOS think that WAR is the best soln to any conflict – makes lots of money and gets them reelected and the US public puts up with this. We deserve what we get.

      Good for you for studying history and remembering it.

      • bob wire

        Me too Tom, worked a 500 lb bomb line for a year, and then machined bell helicopter transmission parts for one half years and the went and fought with the 25th Infantry div.

        For a kid I was bring down good money and working lots of hours , 76 hours my longest week. I was a zombie by then.~ $2.45 per hour if I recall.

        That’s the way it was in the city, 24/7 for several years. It was all gone when I got back, had to go to work for the Sheriff’s Office. That sucked, minding other peoples business is not something I excel at.

  • R.E.

    I am waiting on the latest Mel Gibson “Air America 201-” movie!

  • chuckb

    annbabell, you and tom anderson must have been spawned in the berkeley, calif. area. sounds like typical anti-american garbage.

    • http://?? Joe H.

      Chuckb,
      I’m beginning to doubt Toms story very much! He repeats the same few sentences about every post and it sounds like he is trying to convince HIMSELF that it’s true more than us!!!

      • Tom Anderson

        Joe H.

        Would it make any difference to you if it were all true or false?

        I think that most people are either “for” Nam and think it was worthwhile or “agin” it.

        I think it was just a big friggin mess, but these perpetual wars are now necessary to Wall Street and the US Political process – I have grown to accept it.

        I am interested. Is there some purpose to Nam – some positive aspect to loosing 50K+ troops and $Billions? Now our GOPers are dealing with the EXACT same Commie guvmint in Nam that they made war with! I love this aspect. Why not reinvade?

        • bob wire

          other then advancement in vertical lift and armaments, I can’t think of one Tom.

          Jungle garb issue improved with the years,

      • http://naver samurai

        Must be a plant by Obama bin Laden. He’s good and telling his sheeple what to do. If my father and uncle, who both did 3 tours of Vietnam, were here, they’d probably take him somewhere and give him the “proper” treatment he deserves for all his lies. FOR GOD AND COUNTRY!

        • Tom Anderson

          Samurai,

          I sympathize. If I had lost such a close family member in Nam I would not be able to stomach the thought that some yahoo in Calif was making a bundle of money on the war while the parent is sloshing thru the mud and getting shot at. But FACTS is FACTS. And I felt terrible for my friends and family who lost love ones in Nam.

          But I AM different. I do NOT believe that we should worship the NAM warriors. We should view them as very unfortunate VICTIMS of our military-industrial complex. The MIC is very content to continue to send YOU and your relative for undeclared foreign wars – it THRIVES on guys like you and your family. And I try to make money while you follow your inner feelings of militarism. I was nearly one of those Nam “victims” but the selective service rejected me – I was not sufficiently profitable for them 4-F

          My uncle was a navigator on a B-17 during WW2. He crashed, broke his legs and a German farmer pitch-forked him to death while he was still strapped to his seat. The military NEVER did anything to that German farmer murderer after the war. And my other uncle was a pure US German who was fighting in the Pacific campaign. War ain’t simple. But these newest undeclared MIC wars that Eisenhower warned us about – well YOU can disregard General Eisenhower’s warning at your own peril (and your family’s peril).

          And if there are militaristic fools who are driven to spill their guts in sand-ridden outposts for the MIC then be my guest. I will try to work the system from this end and scrupulously study Ike’s warning.

          • http://naver samurai

            Actually, I never said that they died. They both are still alive and well today. My uncle did 24 years with the USAF and my father did 32.5 years with the USN. I asked my father when he retired in 1987, “If Vietnam was still going on, would you want to go back there?” He told me “Yes, because the job didn’t get done and we have to finish it.” Now there’s a hard core veteran. 하나님 하고 나라를 위해서! FOR GOD AND COUNTRY!

          • http://?? Joe H.

            samurai,
            thank God the majority here in the US are like your uncle and dad and not like tom. I’d hate to have to depend on anyone like him!!! Had he not been 4F, he would have been one of two types. Either a REMF who steals the equipment of other troops or a typical 2nd lieutenant who thinks he knows more than the Platoon sarg and gets his whole platoon killed!!

        • eddie47d

          Okay Mr free speech Samurai. Someone else put a different light on a subject and you start labeling them as plants,stooges ,communists or whatever. Give it a break for knowledge flows from many sources.

  • Tom Anderson

    Dear ChuckB,

    How insightful of you! Yes, you are very close – actually from the SFO penninsula.

    I was a TWA mechanic at Travis AFB and performed my service to my country there – helping to haul back corpses and soldiers from Nam on Boeing aircraft. Now I notice they use actual AF planes to haul our guys around the globe.

    I saw Conveyor Belts going day-in and day-out with aluminum tubes holding the mushy remains of our guys from Nam. I made a ton of money! TWA flew us to Travis and paid us double time – BIG MONEY!!!

    I also saw thousands of “live ones” come out of the planes on the tarmac – many kissed the ground.

    Do you think that I am unpatriotic simply because I fret about all of those dead and made so much money on the war? What gives you the impression that I am anti-american?

    If you will recall, I contributed my TAX money towards execution of the war in Nam just as much as you. So why do you think that YOU are more patriotic than me? Did YOU do the shootin, or were you like me and had to clean up the dead bodies after the shootin was over?

    And, THANK YOU FOR YOUR SERVICE !

    Are you GOP of DEMO or neither? Military?

  • http://com i41

    Ton A. yakking about the poor old Na,m Vets.Most of the pukes whining that they are vets and they just are messed up. The sure are still jumping a lot of rope and never were able to take care of themselves, used the war as a damned crutch. We vets who came home and went to work doing something productive, raising our families, educating our children and our selves on something productive for society to use and help the citizens. I lived a few years in different states, abd would see several long haired scrots here and there telling b–l s–t stories to people about how tough they were and what they did. Most were pot heads and drug users, and still are long gray haired piss ant drug heads still telling the embellished BS stories. They will not work and just cannot stay clean or take responsibility for their actions. There is lots of us working Americans vets who don’t need a handout, but there are plenty of whiney vets that need a damn good kick in the azz to get them off of the poor me crap.

    • http://?? Joe H.

      i41,
      I take great offense at your words. I spent 18 months in that tropical paradise, came back, worked for 35 years including my own business. I know a lot of purely f…ed up guys that were over there both physically AND mentally. Perhaps they saw and experienced a little more than you did. I heard a saying that you should remember that goes like this. There but for the grace of God go I!!!!

  • Tom Anderson

    I41,

    I have read, carefully, each of your sentences and agree with each. But, since I was NOT official military (a military contractor) I feel that I cannot critique as effectively as some one who was actually “in”.

    I had lots of close friends in Nam and I have asked EACH of them about their experiences and sentiments. I get responses which run the gamut – positive & negative. But nearly all say that drugs were pretty rampant. One of my good friends was arrested by the S. Viet military police when he was caught with a duffle bag full of marijuana – he had made a “drug run” for his buddies.

    My other close friend (army) said that he, personally, saw 2 first lewie’s fragged – 45 in the back of the head. He spend ALL of his time in Nam on the front lines. The judge gave him a choice – Nam or the pen.

    Other good friend (Marine) says that we should have just stayed there longer and seen it to the end – he feels badly for all of the people who helped the US after the commies came in.

    I simply think Nam was a mechanism to show the US Public that LBJ was tougher than Goldwater – - got him elected. But I made a ton of money due to Nam. Hence, the false flag “gulf of Tonkin” hoax – - they made Goldwater to appear to be a madman whereas LBJ was the true warmongering monster.

    But, I DO suspect there is something going on – the suicide rate in the army just keeps going up and up and up every year. And every year the army keeps saying that they are attacking the issue “vigorously”. If they attack it any more vigorously the troops will all be dead.

    I could NEVER understand how the military would allow all of their dead military buddies bodies to turn to mush on the tarmac of TRAVIS AFB – - LBJ ordered the planes (coffins) to be unloaded ONLY at night – the 707′s would come in in the AM and sit all day in the summer with no A/C. You have to be pretty cold-heart SOB to know that your buddie’s body is cooking to mush in a plane in order to protect the political face of LBJ. THAT was a useful but painful experience for me. Ain’t no real “brotherhood” within the military!

    • http://?? Joe H.

      Tom,
      right before I went to RVN in 70 I went to a friends funeral that had been shot, seven rounds in the abdomen and lower extremities. They had an open casket funeral! Gee, for mush, he didn’t look too bad!!! didn’t see anybody puke as they would have had he turned to mush!!!
      Matter of fact, I heard of some bodies being used to transport drugs to the U.S., that would have been kinda hard in mush now, wouldn’t it???

      • Tom Anderson

        Joe H.

        I worked at TRAVIS AFB in 68 and 69. It was during that period that a LIFE photographer took a photo of the “tubes” being unloading on the conveyor belt. LBJ threw a fit when he saw the photo and issued the order that they ONLY be unloaded at night. I notice now that they “spin” the treatment of the bodies much better. There are saluting soldiers, flags all over, etc. But in 68 and 69 at TRAVIS there were a lot of mushy bodies in very hot fuselages.

        LBJ – without question!!! He withdrew the fighters sent to protect the USS LIBERTY from the devastating attack by Israel. He was willing to have all of our US sailors murdered by Israel in order to not “offend” the sensitivities of Isreal. The LBJ lovers have a VERY hard time justifying the “call-back” order to those fighters. It caused the additional deaths of many more of our sailors. And the military (McCain’s Admiral dad was in on the cover-up) just swept the murderous atrocity under the carpet.

        Three key people implicate LBJ in JFK’s murder
        1) His long time mistress – her testimony is on videotape
        2) The death bed confession of CIA Section Chief E.H Hunt
        3) Jack Ruby (Rubenstein – he worked with Nixon in Chicago in 1940s)

        Of course, LBJ was in on it. I thot JFK should have been killed too. But LBJ had the balls to actually do it. JFK was quoted as saying that he would “splinter the CIA into a thousand pieces” after the Bay of Pigs. The CIA knew it was either KILL JFK or be destroyed. JFK fired Dulles over it and, funny funny, Dulles was on the Warren commission – the irony of ALL time!

      • Tom Anderson

        Dear Joe H.

        I didn’t say that EVERY canister passed thru TRAVIS and I am sure that at some point they stopped cooking those bodies on the tarmac. But I remember the rows of TWA and PAN AM cargo 707′s lined up til late at night – then the conveyor vans coming up to unload them. Seeing that day after day really had an impression on me. Generated an abiding hatred for all that is LBJ, DEMOCRAT and, now, GOP.

        I am glad that you didn’t have to suffer thru that with a proper open casket.

        So, I pose the same question. Did we GAIN anything from the 50K+ troops and $Billions that we expended in Nam? Now that we have peaceful bidniz relations with the SAME EXACT COMMIE guvmint in Nam?

        Why don’t we reinvade – after all, NOTHING has changed – it is the SAME commie guvmint?

        Those poor guys who lost lives and limbs in Nam! For NOTHING! They weren’t even paid well. Well, perhaps I am neglecting that their families get some nice new crisp US flags at the ceremony. And they can wax patriotic about this or that relative who gave their “all” for our military-industrial complex.

        All these guys and gals volunteering for Iraq and Afghan to wage war against a bunch of illiterate camel jockeys. The other way to view this is simple Darwinian Natural Selection – those militaristic driven souls will doom their DNA to extinction. The question is how many generations it will take to eliminate this militaristic-knucklehead gene from our pool of DNA.

    • http://naver samurai

      You were just a civilian? Then you aren’t a Vietman vet, nor are you a patriot. You keep taking about how much money you made, but who the h*** cares about that? I think that you are full of s***! FOR GOD AND COUNTRY!

      • Tom Anderson

        Dear Samurai,

        How insightful of you! Yes I am just a simple civilian. The Selective Service rejected me – cost them too much. Back in the late 60′s the military contracted the airlines to fly their guys and bodies.

        Who cares about how much money I made cause of Nam?? – well, apparently YOU do!!! It got a rise out of YOU! Many of my friends that I grew up with were over in Nam while I was cashing in on the war. I saw THOUSANDS of troops leave and arrive via transit thru TRAVIS AFB which was the main shuffle point for transitting troops. And, as I mentioned, lots and lots and lots of aluminum canisters – - it kind of brought the war to reality.

        Do you assume that I am unpatriotic because I am not a warmonger and I made a goodly profit from Nam? Or is it simply because I have different views than you?

        Anabelle seems young enough to not understand that a LOT of people made a tremendous amount of money during Nam. I was one of those. Were you one of those poorly paid vets? Thank you for your service – Thank you for your service. Now take those “thank yous” and 2 cents and buy yourself a hamburger!

        I remember the 1950s and the WW2 vets. No one ever patronized THOSE vets with “thank yous” – instead they offerred them JOBS. This “thank you” bullSh*t is simply to ameliorate guilt – “thank yous” are a lot cheaper than real cash from taxes or a real job.

        You love our military-industrial complex driven wars? Then, PLEASE, I invite you to head to Afghan or Iraq and do your patriotic duty. I will be on the “war racket” end of things trying to make a goodly profit from your military-complex mania. Thank you

        • bob wire

          One day you are the bug and the next day the windshield.

        • eddie47d

          It’s good to hear from a contractors point of view and someone who is honest about it. I met a couple of contractors over there on convoys and they could have cared less about the war. Big money was the key. I didn’t think much about that at the time and I liked both dudes. Now (with Iraq) I see more of the “dark side” of the business.

        • http://naver samurai

          Been there and done that. Afghanistan 2001 – 2002, Desert Shield and Storm 1990 – 1991, Operation Iraqi Freedom 2003 – 2004, 2005 – 2005. 1 Bronze Star, 1 Silver Star, 2 Purple Hearts. These 2 Purple Hearts I got while serving and fighting for your freedom, moron! Show some respect for people who had the honor to serve and for the ones currently serving. I thank all the Vets here for their service and sacrifice. 하나님 하고 나라를 위해서! FOR GOD AND COUNTRY!

          Bob says “sometimes you’re the bug and sometimes you’re the windshield.” Well, you’ve always been the bug.

          • Tom Anderson

            You don’t talk like a real soldier – you are too cocky.

            But, if so, why do you just pick on those poor camel-jockeys NONE of whom have EVER attacked the USA (none of the terrorists of 9/11 were Afghanis or Iraqis). The 9/11 attacks were launched MOSTLY from Germany – go invade Germany.

            How do you measure up to a REAL threat like North Koreans or Iranians?? You guys can’t handle A REAL threat. Stop picking on those poor illiterate pipsqueaks.

            And YOU aren’t doing me any favor by spending all of my TAX money fighting useless Wall Street Driven wars in sandy areas. Don’t you know who General Smedley Butler was? Now THAT guy was a hero! Go read some history. Smedley has something to say about YOUR job!

            All you did was eliminate Iran’s WORST enemy when you toppled Saddam. You simply changed a Suuni state to a Shiite state and HELPED Iran. Is THAT too hard for you to understand? Such a SIMPLE view of the world. God Help Us!

          • Pete

            Hey Tom,

            Samurai got dropped into combat – it’s kill or be killed. That’s where the American people sent him. Why you getting down on him ? You think them soldier are debating in the foxhole like them talking heads on PBS ?

            Hey Samurai – did you kill any one ? It’s war and it’s OK !

          • Pete

            General Smedley Butler I think was awarded the Medal of Honor like twice ? Correct if I’m wrong. Why use him to win an argument ?

            We aren’t as good as they are – we never served in combat. Who the heck do we think we are judging those who have ? Right Tom ?

            Or even using their name to win an argument. The combat vets – they are heroes.

        • http://?? Joe H.

          tom,
          spare ME your thanks! your thanks would make a $1.00 hamburger cost five dollars!!! If it hadn’t been for those troops you disparage so much, a$$hole, you wouldn’t have made a cent as you were nothing but a BUM!!

  • http://com i41

    Tom A. If you get a change to read a book on LBJ, and what he and his Lady Bird Turd did in life, and the crap they pulled in and out of the WH, Makes Whorehound and Hilllary look like high schoolers. IA lot of us always though LBJ had his hands on several misterious deaths including JFK

    • bob wire

      Lyndon was not a man to mess with, he was feared and respected. Lyndon knew where your car was parked at 3 am., who you had lunch with. He made it his job to know things. One of the last of the Titans of Capital hill, check out his library if you get the chance to make it to Austin, it’s well worth the time.

      Also there is a biography of the Johnson family going back to his great grand father and their migration from Tennessee to Texas, settling in the Hill Country and fighting off Indians. Excellent read.

      Interest, ~ they stopped and settled in the Hill country because the grass was so tall and rich. Not considering it has taken 100 years for grass to get so tall and the top soil was only 1 inch thick covering solid lime stone. It never supported the number of head of cattle they envisioned but grazed down in 3 years and then erosion set in, leaving it to what we see today. ~rolling rocky plains, sprinkled with Texas blue stem, prickly pears and scrub cedar.

      • eddie47d

        I was in the San Antonio- Austin area last year in April and it was beautiful. The flowers were stunning along the highway going south to Corpus Christi. Up around Canyon Lakes I didn’t see much tall grass but alot of rocky areas. Thanks for telling us why.

  • Annabell

    Actually, chuckb, you misread me. In the first place, I was not born, reared, nor educated, anywhere near Berkeley…not enough gold in Solomon’s mines to pay me to sit and soak up the nastiness being taught in it’s un-hallowed halls. In the second place, I am ANYTHING but ANTI-American and didn’t mean in any way to criticize our own government, the most generous/compassionate nation the world has ever and will ever know. I was only commenting on the facts reported by LIFE magazine at that time. My point was to give evidence of the crass greed of the South Vietnamese and their willingness to “bite the hand that fed it”…something similar to what we’ve experienced in other nations who are so glad for our foreign tax-dollar aid, yet so willing to stab us in the back. But, and I know this sounds cynical, lack of gratitude is apparently a mark of human nature.

    • Tom Anderson

      Dear Annabelle,

      “Un-hallowed halls” – where did you get THAT? Is this what FAUX news is propagating now? Are you aware of THESE facts:

      Ronald Reagan and Admiral Nimitz were on the Board of Regents of those “un-hallowed halls” DO you think that either of those guys were unpatriotic and/or “un-hallowed”?

      Some of the greatest discoveries of physics were made there – several elements were actually named after UC. Many advances related to the Manhattan project were made there – which, rightly or wrongly, helped end WW2 earlier.

      Nimitz who LOVED and dedicated his last years to the Univ. refused to be buried in his red-neck baptist-belt central texas area (Fredrickburg, TX) and, instead requested burial in the San Bruno Veterans cemetery – where his grave is located today. Nimitz certainly didn’t think that those halls were “un-hallowed”.

      Who gives you these false impressions?

      True, there are some radical left-wingers there, but our system can easly handle ANY ideas – right or left, commie or capitalist. And those students, if exposed to both sides, will be able to make informed decisions – they are NOT all sheeple.

      The Viet Nam anti-war movement had its genesis there – so it isn’t ALL bad. We might have lost 100,000 troop in Nam if those dirty bearded hippie types had not raised a ruckus when they did.

      Secondly, you use the terms AMERICAN and GOVERNMENT interchangably – BIG mistake!!! It is YOUR DUTY to criticize the US Government because it is YOURS! You are NOT an automoton who just believes and does ANYTHING our US guvmint tells you? Our Founding Fathers consider OUR OWN GUVMINT the BIGGEST threat to our freedom – THAT is why they did everything possible to divide and disperse its powers. THAT is why we have the 2nd amendment – TO PROTECT OURSELVES and to FIGHT AGAINST our own Guvmint when it becomes ripe for revolution. The 2nd amendment was NEVER ment to allow people to “hunt” or, even, protect themselves from criminals – the specific purpose of the Founding Fathers was to assure that the people had enough effective weapons to pose a REAL threat to the US GUVMINT.

      I agree that the USA is and has been the “beacon to the world” the most generous and righteous of nations ever. But if John Q. Public accepts whatever the Guvmint tells him/her then we deserve the mess that we are in. Nam was one of those messes – and, I think, you don’t know the half of it. The rebellion of the Black troops near the end of the war, the rampant drug use, the extremely high percentage of Fragging, the drug running by “air america (cia)” etc. etc.

      Don’t ever mix up AMERICA (and the US CONSTITUTION) with the US Guvmint. It is your DUTY to virulently OPPOSE the US Guvmint when it is wrong – as it is more and more.

      Let Mr. Samurai snap his heels to any order given him, but you can THINK!

      But, THANK GOD, people are thinking for themselves!

      • chuckb

        tom anderson, your heroes, the bearded long haired scum probably caused the lives of thousands more than would have been necessary. the vietnam war could have been easily finished within month’s if the communist influence in the universities and congress had not interfered.

        you ask why nixon didn’t have fonda indicted? i read one article that stated she was too popular and hollywood was controlled by the communist element and they would make a prosecution an impossible task.
        the far left media scares a lot of the politicians. remember tom hayden and the chicago seven, these guys were just as bad as fonda and the courts couldn’r prosecute them. (lenin must have smiled).
        californians even elected tom hayden to the state legislature and senate.
        you might revisit history and read about who started the russian revolution and who financed the party. where some of these people emigrated to and who fought adolph for power in germany. where some of their off springs are today.
        you can find lots of answers in history, if you find a history book that hasn’t been revised.

        • Tom Anderson

          ChuckB,

          Sorry, I don’t have many heroes – neither the military (except Generals Ike and Washington) or the Hippies are my heroes. If you are going to ASSUME that the Hippies are my heroes, can I assume that Bush and Cheney and Westmoreland are YOUR heroes?

          I think you are living in LaLa land. The historical FACT is that those anti-war hippies DID affect the war effort, that UNIVERSITIes and CONGRESS DID get involved – you are wishing for a make-believe world. And in our NEXT war, there will be equal amount of bickering and ranting-and-raving, it simply comes with the territory. Which is MY point. If you don’t LIKE that we, eventually, have to pull out with our tail between legs then DON’T start it. CONGRESS AND UNIVERSITIES will get involved in our NEXT war – you can just count on it. If you don’t like it then don’t get involved. You are simply wishing for a LaLa land world where our GREAT Prez declares and executes war at his whim and everybody shouts “seig Heil” and snaps their heels. It isn’t that way in the USA yet. Hippies, Universities and even Congress may have something to say about it.

          What does Hollywood and the left have to do with the decision by the PREZ to indict a war criminal? Your arguments suffer from illogic. Nixon or Bush could simply have told his AG – INDICT HER NOW! And it would be done. Yes, you may be right that she could not have been CONVICTED, but THAT is secondary. So, is your argument that you don’t indict someone simply because you are SCARED that you might not get a conviction and/or that Hollywood might be upset. Come on! You can come up with better than THAT!

          A president can order his AG to indict ANYONE for ANYTHING! Come ON! Come up with a REAL and logical reason.

          Yes, I am interested in HISTORY and, in particular, the Russian Rev. I understand that the Germans escorted Lenin to Russia ! Can you enlightment me more – I am interested.

          And, I am sure that you are aware the Prescott Bush (George’s Grandpappy) was charged with financing the NAZI war effort AGAINST THE USA??? THAT’s history too! I would love to see ALL of the NAZI Bushes swinging from a rope!

          Also, are you aware of the initiation ceremony of the “Skull and Bones” group at YALE which ALL the Bushes went thru? And 100% DEMOCRAT John Kerry also jerked off in the casket too during the ceremony! Very interesting group of wierdos – Kerry and Bush in a casket! How many americans know THAT? Every wonder why NO ONE wants to divulge the demonic details of the initiation ceremony? That is YOUR hero president!

          • http://gunner689 gunner689

            JFK’s Pa was sent home from his post as Ambassador to England because of his overt support of Hitler.

          • http://?? Joe H.

            tom,
            you seem to forget that congress got involved in the IRAQ war as well as AFGHANISTAN. They gave bush permission to send troops there!! Now , if you like eddie want to say he tricked them, then I say that they don’t belong in office if they are that easily fooled as I sure as hell don’t want anybody representing my life, liberty and persuit of happiness that can be fooled so easy!!

  • Thor

    As a veteran of ancient history myself, I can appreciate the lively discussion…thanks to all involved. But can we now get back to the present and make some kind of rational concensus on whether folk like Ellie and Julian are heroes or not? Personally, I still hold the belief that while the American people, nay the entire world, has a right to the truth at some point in the future, given any present circumstance in which clandestine operations are necessary it is still to one’s strategic advantage to ‘lie and decieve.’ I feel that persons like Daniel Ellsberg and Julian Assange are scum-sucking activists who seek to impose their radical views at the peril of those still in the field. You have that from someone who has actually been shot and blown up at a time when activists comfortably ensconced in their easy chairs revealed useful information to the enemy that did the shooting. I am not opposed to the public knowing the truth. I am against revealing those aspects of it harmful to our troops at a tiem when it does them the most harm–while they are deployed. You want peace? Fine. Pull them all home and then disclose all the truth you want.

    • Tom Anderson

      Thank you, Thor. Very well posed arguments and introspection!

      And I agree that the divulging of important information during wartime presents a REAL conundrum.

      I believe that most of our most recent wars were NOT at all related to our safety and security but to enhance the political stance of our parties and/or to keep Wall Steet humming (a la Gen. Smedley Butler). We were lied into Nam by the Gulf of Tonkin Resolution – a BIG LIE and LBJ knew it. And it was NEVER declared constitutionally by the US Congress. So my question, should ANY american support an unconstitutional war which is fundamentally based on a big lie? Isn’t it EVERY american’s DUTY to expose the lie and hamper the execution of that unconstitutional war? ESPECIALLY if he is a soldier? Or is his main duty to OBEY – right or wrong?

      I think it is immaterial what the motives of Ellsberg of Assange are. They may be scum-sucking activists or angels are far as I am concerned. The question we must ask as americans is if it is better that we KNOW the truth of these matters so that we can make an informed decision. NOTE that if Ellsberg had not divulged the info about the Gulf of Tonkin lie then we might still think LBJ was a great hero rather than a mass murderer. I don’t care WHAT his motives were, I WANT the TRUTH. And, obviously, the NEWS organizations, the MILITARY, nor the CONGRESS was going to give us the TRUTH. So, devil-that-he-may-be, I am very GRATEFUL that Ellsberg divulged the TRUTH and we could cut our losses in Nam and pull out with our tail between legs.

      On the OTHER HAND, If I were prez today, I would have Jane Fonda’s body hanging from the roof of the US Congress – crows picking at her corpse and all. Her treachery was, without ANY question, TREASON. So, let me pose a question – why didn’t Mr Bush (or ANY of those self-righteous presidents) have her indicted for TREASON??? I await your answer? Why have they ALL treated her with kid gloves?

      Was it because we were NOT in a fully legal (no Congressional declaration of War) WAR, so, by definition, she could NOT commit treason? I don’t know. I am interested in an explanation from these hypocritical conservatives about WHY their hero president did not indict a war criminal – Jane.

      Thank you for your comments – they raise the bar.

      • http://gunner689 gunner689

        Because the rules don’t apply when you’re a famous liberal Marxist-Democrat. Why wasn’t Clinton impeached when he sold 50 yrs. of nuclear and communications-guidence systems to the Communist Chinese, to pay off his personal debts to them ?

      • Pete

        Jane Fonda ! HA HA HA ! You got to be kidding. If they heard you talking about punishing Jane Fonda in the military they probably send you to the Mental Health Clinic to be checked out ….

        “Jane Fonda is an American citizen and has a right to say what she wants, and to come on this base” is what they would tell you !!!!

        Tom, did you know that ?

      • Pete

        Hey Tom,

        You don’t need any bravado to prove yourself – That “Jane Fonda committed treason” stuff will get you sent to the 4th floor of Wilford Hall (San Antonio AFB Hospital) real fast !!!

        Hey, here a song they use to sing in Air Force Chapel back in 1986 ! We are the World !

        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ne7fPpxAnuM

        I heard one trainee (who didn’t like Jane Fonda) refused to stand and sing with everyone else ! He couldn’t take the one-world garbage and cracked. Darn troublemaker !

        Different strokes for different folks , Tom. Looking at it practically, Jane Fonda sure was a hot babe when she was younger ! She still looks great today!

        COme on, if any of you vets had met Jane when she was in her 20′s you would have went for it ! Right ? Right On !!!

        As long as we tolerate people of different political beliefs, especially in the military- we then can have Espirit De Corps !

        • http://?? Joe H.

          Pete,
          you are sadly mistaken. I wouldn’t touch one iota of Hanoi jane!!! I have thought that she is scum and will comtinue to think she’s scum, and wonder how Henry Fonda could call her his offspring!!! As the old saying goes, if she were on fire………!

        • http://gunner689 gunner689

          considering who she hangs out with she probably has a dozen types of VD.

  • chuckb

    tom and. ike couldn’t polish the shoes of george washington, he mishandled the germany problem and that gave us the berlin wall and russia a large part of german territory. during the german invasion of russia, 25,000 russian soldiers deserted the russian communist army and joined the germans, they fought against the communist of russia, after the war ike returned these russian prisoners of war back to the communist russian army, they were murdereed, imprisoned and starved to death. nice going ike!
    the germans allowed lenin passage from switzerland trough germany in a sealed train on the way to russia, thinking that he would be a bigger problem to the russians than them. so does that answer your
    question.

    why didn’t nixon have fonda indicted?, the information i saw reported nixon was in a election period and they knew fonda could never be convicted with the communist leaning media backing her and it would hurt his election chances, remember the chicago 7.

    are you aware that “john kennedy’s father” was a nazi sympathizer and contributed money to nazi germany, i doubt you want to hear that.

    hippies are your hero’s ? sounds to me like you might have been there yourself.
    if i had of been president instead of truman the communist dictators in korea would have been defeated, mcarthur would have bombed the red chinese at the yalu river and saved us the trouble of vietnam.

    i would have re-armed the german army at the end of the war and put a finish to the russians like general patton wanted too.

    lenin probably smiles when he looks upon america today, his ideaology has almost captured the democratic party.

  • Tom Anderson

    Well, NOW at least it is getting interesting.

    Yes, I am fully aware of those PROBLEMS with Ike – I have read 3 biographies on him – good and bad. And Ike did a lot worse things. Washington had his OWN problems – his last meeting with his mother, his mother refused to even let him in into her front yard, let alone her house. Both Ike and Washington were REAL men with foibles like all, but I contend that NO OTHER GENERAL could have lead our troops to victory. Remember he had to keep the French, English and Russians in line. Patton would have had a worse disaster on D-Day. And Ike FIRED PATTON for insubordination – Patton simply refused to follow orders – a piss poor soldier if you ask me despite his knowledge of tanks and strategy. Patton ended up on the trash heap of history despite Nixon’s love for him. He was fired by his own commander and fellow West Point student – Ike.

    So, are you saying that Nixon’s reason for NOT indicting Jane is simple cowardice? That he was scared? I think you are wrong – Nixon made his bones by taking on the worst commies in the nation – why would he be scared of Jane.

    But, then what about Bush (both). Why didn’t either of them indict Jane? Were they cowards too?

    Again, Nixon, Bush, Reagan could have VERY EASILY told their AG’s – INDICT JANE and, within 5 minutes it would be done. Don’t give me LAME excuses. I want a conservative to DEFEND the “kid glove” treatment of Jane by Bush, Nixon, Reagan etc. I would have her hanged. Why are you protecting her and defending her?

    Come on, please defend those ultra-conservatives for NOT indicting Jane!

    And, yes, I was also aware that the Germans had sent Lenin safely into Russia.

    Wasn’t aware of JFK’s Dad’s NAZI connections. But if you read my earlier notes, I believed that JFK should have been killed – and LBJ did it. JFK certainly should have been court-martialed for his role in the deaths of the sailors under him on PT-109. What a horrible representation of the truth THAT turned out to be – all drunk and asleep at the helm – how many know the truth about PT-109?

    Why do you keep assuming that I am Hippie oriented and that I am a JFK lover? I had Hippie friends and military friends (and family) in the 60′s. I detested JFK, LJB and Bushes. Obama is simply Bush with big ears and a better tan. Bush expanded Fed guvmint every single year he was in office. He disarmed our pilots on 9/11. He issued “stand-down” orders to NORAD and the fighters stayed on the ground til AFTER the last minute. Bush is a traitor and should be hanged – right next to JFK – let’s exhume his remains (if they are really his).

    When seconds counted Bush spent minutes reciting poetry to elementary school children – giving the terrorist ALL THE TIME they needed for their nefarious plans – if he were an army corporal he would be court-martialed for dereliction of DUTY.

    You are wrong, the GOP has expanded socialist power MORE than the DEMOS – Lenin would feel most comfortable with Cheney and Rumsfeld.

    • http://naver samurai

      Actually, he didn’t fire Patton. He did remove him from command for slapping soldiers and brought him back to England to keep the Germans at Dunkirk so they wouldn’t be used against the allies at Normandy. Second, Patton was never at D-Day. He came to France after the landing and the allies were all stuck in the hedgerow country. He even said about pivoting like Von Sleifen (SP) said to do in WW1 and do some real broken field running. FOR GOD AND COUNTRY!

      • Tom Anderson

        Samurai,

        At least I appreciate that you are consistent – consistently WRONG.

        Go read history – - you are getting all mixed up. I was NOT referring to the “hitting” incident. He was NOT fired for THAT. He was FIRED by Ike for continual insubordination – REMOVED from Command of the 3rd Army and “put to pasture” in the 15th. Just go READ the history!!!

        Where are the historians where we need them? All we have is a bunch of guys who believe HISTORY is what Hollywood feeds them.

        Are you and Chuck brothers or do you just BOTH get all your history from Hollywood? Why are you BOTH wrong? and so consistently?

        IKE FIRED PATTON!

        • http://marcum1@wildblue.net coal miner
        • Pete

          According to Sun Tzu the Commander in the Field can disregard the instructions of his Sovereign ….

          Patton kicked ass ! So did MacArthur !

          MacArthur should have disregarded Truman’s orders and bombed, bombed, bombed the Chinese – that was his mistake ….

        • http://?? Joe H.

          tom,
          check out the story of Ft. Benning, Pheonix city Ala, and Patton!!

  • http://gunner689 gunner689

    I also am a Nam Vet. (2) Nam tours with the Marine Corps, 67-68 and 71. Like Thor I came home on a stretcher, both times. I have evaluated Nam not only from my limited insight as a grunt but on the larger scale in World events. I believe that Nam and maybe Korea were saftey valves that possibly prevented a nuclear WW 111. After WW11 Communism was on the march. Not only did they occupy Eastern Europe but were making serious in-roads into Africa, Central America, South-East Asia and anywhere else they could spread their poison. America as the leader of the Free-World had to take a stand and show them that we were willing and capable of taking them on. If we hadn’t they would have just continued their aggression and course of World domination until we would have stopped both Russia and Red China with an all out war. Unfortunately these two brush fire wars cost the lives of over 250,000 American and Allied troops, many of them my friends and relatives. Freedom is not free but worth the price that needs to be paid in both blood and treasuer. Now that Communism has come home to our own land will we still be willing to pay the price to keep our freedoms ? That is the question.

  • chuckb

    tom and.

    your arguments are interesting, however, i think you are smokin that funny stuff. ike never fired patton. patton was one of our greatest generals along with douglas macarthur.

    why would reagan want to indict fonda and stir up the hollwood commies again. as far as that goes why didn’t carter indict fonda?. unfortunately this country failed by allowing jane fonda to get away with her treasonous acts and she should have stood trial. if nixon failed to do so for political reasons, he was wrong. at the time i thought he should have. reagan and bush didn’t enter the equation and as far as that goes why didn’t carter indict her, oh! i know he thought she was a hero.

    your hatred for bush is overcoming your good sense, the towers were already attacked when bush was notified, remember? and the few minutes he stayed with the children made no difference whatsoever.

    before you hang bush and john kennedy you better find more compelling evidence, they were both good patriotic americans.

  • Tom Anderson

    Sorry,

    It is just HISTORY – Ike told his son when he REMOVED Patton from Command of the 3rd Army in Oct 1945, “I had to FIRE George Patton today”. Other people have referred to this “loss of face” as being “promoted downstairs”, but is was clear that Ike was fed up with Patton’s shenanigans and REMOVED HIM FROM COMMAND. Don’t pay attention to the movie (is that where you get this nonsense?). Look up Patton’s history. Apparently, Patton started going loonie near the end – - perhaps due to earlier head injuries. He was obviously a good General but NOT a great General (despite Hollywood). The other Generals of WW2 classed him near the bottom – - INCLUDING himself.

    Gosh, I thought there more MORE planes than just those that hit the towers! Bush was hiding with his tail between legs when the Pentagon got hit and the other jet hit the ground in Penn. – LONG after his paralyzed cowardice at the elementary school – History can be a b*tch. Not to worry, Cheney was in complete control and pulling all the strings during Bush’s hiding.

    JFK was transferred to the Pacific campaign because of his illicit relationship with a Norwegian beauty who was a KNOWN NAZI agent. Sorry, again simply history. We would have all been better off if LBJ had had him killed decades before 1963.

    I didn’t like Truman either – but in contrast, I feel that his GREATEST error was NOT firing MacArthur at his VERY FIRST INSUBORDINATION which occurred MUCH earlier – - Truman was weak and just let Mac have his way until it got out of hand. But, otherwise, I consider MacA a pretty good General (other than allowing ALL of his planes to be destroyed ON THE GROUND by the Japs on Phillipines EVEN after Pearl).

  • Tom Anderson

    It is just HISTORY – Ike told his son when he REMOVED Patton from Command of the 3rd Army in Oct 1945, “I had to FIRE George Patton today”. Other people have referred to this “loss of face” as being “promoted downstairs”, but is was clear that Ike was fed up with Patton’s shenanigans and REMOVED HIM FROM COMMAND. Don’t pay attention to the movie (is that where you get this nonsense?). Look up Patton’s history. Apparently, Patton started going loonie near the end – - perhaps due to earlier head injuries. He was obviously a good General but NOT a great General (despite Hollywood). The other Generals of WW2 classed him near the bottom – - INCLUDING himself.

    Gosh, I thought there more MORE planes than just those that hit the towers! Bush was hiding with his tail between legs when the Pentagon got hit and the other jet hit the ground in Penn. – LONG after his paralyzed cowardice at the elementary school – History can be a b*tch. Not to worry, Cheney was in complete control and pulling all the strings during Bush’s hiding.

    JFK was transferred to the Pacific campaign because of his illicit relationship with a Norwegian beauty who was a KNOWN NAZI agent. Sorry, again simply history. We would have all been better off if LBJ had had him killed decades before 1963.

    I didn’t like Truman either – but in contrast, I feel that his GREATEST error was NOT firing MacArthur at his VERY FIRST INSUBORDINATION which occurred MUCH earlier – - Truman was weak and just let Mac have his way until it got out of hand. But, otherwise, I consider MacA a pretty good General (other than allowing ALL of his planes to be destroyed ON THE GROUND by the Japs on Phillipines EVEN after Pearl).

  • Tom Anderson

    Trivia Question

    Who out there can tell me what religion Eisenhower was raised under without looking it up?

    I think you will ALL be surprised – I was.

    Ike and Patton were cadets together at W. Point. They both dissassembled a tank together. Patton, initially, outranked and climbed up much faster than Ike. But, then, Ike’s ability to “mix” with personalities as diverse at DeGaulle and Churchill became apparent – THEN there was no question who was going to lead D Day.

    Ike tackled Jim Thorpe in a football game –

    There were rumors that the commies had killed Patton via clandestine methods – a la polonium? Stalin knew that Patton hated him. Stalin thot that Patton was one of our BEST generals.

  • chuckb

    tom and.

    ike did not fire patton. i don’t know what comic books you are reading.i remember the incident quite well and you don’t know what your talking about.patton slapped a soldier during a hospital visit in 1943 and ike felt like relieving him of his command would be punishment enough without firing him.that was in 1943 not 1945.

    you don’t know what you are talking about relating to trumans firing of macarthur. macarthur knew truman was screwing up the war and he spoke out about it to the press, macarthur knew they had to take action against china and called for the bombing of the red army waiting to cross the yalu river. that’s when truman relieved macarthur of his command.

    jfk and his wife were both notorious for their sexual escapades, jackie shacked up with marlon brando in wash. d.c when john was president, the media printed a picture of them taken at a night club, people were too enthralled with them and the issue never got anywhere, everyone knew about him and marilyn.

    as far as bush and 9/11 what did you expect him to do, he did everything that he could do. and what strings do think cheney pulled during his term as interim president?

    • http://marcum1@wildblue.net coal miner

      Chuckb,

      D-Day: Three unique perspectives.
      What happened at Knutsford?
      General Patton was almost fired over the “Affair at Knutsford”. Knutsford, England was a small town close Patton’s headquarters. Patton has been asked to be a guest at the inauguration of a “Welcome Club” for American serviceman. After asking that no photographs be taken, and checking that there were no reporters, Patton made a few off-the-cuff remarks. This included a remark that America and Britain would rule the world. This was considered a slight to Russia, since Patton had failed to include Russia as a world ruler. It was this ‘slight’ that almost ruined Patton’s career. It was released to the world press. Patton was again in the news. All three governments were displeased with Patton. Patton’s promotion to the permanent rank of general was placed on hold and Eisenhower sent Patton a blistering letter:

      “I am thoroughly weary of your failure to control your tongue and have begun to doubt your all-round judgment, so essential in high military position.”

      Patton replied, “you probably are… fed up with me… But certainly my last alleged escapade smells strongly of having been a frame up in view of the fact that… the thing was under the offices of (British) Ministry of Information.” Patton was sure that he would be removed from command and he was very depressed.
      How did the press get the story?
      Patton was right. It was a frame up. London Controlling Section (LCS), Prime Minister Winston Churchill’s secret spy organization and the Allied Supreme Command had released his remarks on purpose to focus attention on Patton. It almost ruined his reputation and his career. Patton wrote in his diary, “… this last incident was so trivial in its nature, but so terrible in its effects, but it is not the result of an accident…”

      • Tom Anderson

        Thank you, Coal Miner,

        Mr. Samurai has a hang up about the “slapping incident”. Ike NEVER fired Patton over that. He FIRED him in Oct 45 – and Ike stated as such – Ike RELIEVED PATTON of COMMAND of 3rd Army and told his son, John, “I have had to fire Patton today”. Patton had turned into a loose cannon – perhaps due to many earlier head injuries. And as you post so clearly indicates, even Winston started to effectively undermine Patoon – - Ike had had enough and ran his ass off – put him “out to pasture” over at 15th Army. Removing from COMMAND is “FIRED” ! Ike clipped Patton’s wings.

        Bush and Cheney ordered NORAD to “stand-down” and assured that HUNDREDS of NORAD fighter planes would sit calmly on the tarmac in order to give the terrorists all the time necessary to hit the Pentagon and do their other dirty work. Just a few months before that they ORDERED that all US pilots and flight crews be DISARMED. Did you ever think WHY our pilots didn’t just blows those Arabs away with 45′s??? It was because Bush DISARMED them. Why don’t americans ASK why NORAD didn’t get hundreds of planes in the air within seconds of the plane hitting the 2nd tower??? The GENERAL of NORAD testified that he NEVER GOT THE ORDER – Cheney and Bush had ordered a NORAD “stand-down”. You tell me why?

        • http://marcum1@wildblue.net coal miner

          Tom Anderson,
          You are right.Pay no attention to Samurai,he isa idiot.
          In World War 2, General Patton first led about two divisions of American forces in the 1942 invasion of North Africa. After Rommel defeated Allied forces at Kasserine Pass, Eisenhower put Patton in charge of the American forces in the area, and, within two weeks, Patton had Rommel’s forces on the run. A little later, Patton played a key role in the conquest of Sicily but his reputation suffered when he slapped two shell-shocked American soldiers while visiting hospitals. The slapping incidents almost cost him his job but Eisenhower knew Patton’s value and protected him. After D-Day, Patton’s Third Army played a key role in liberating France. Patton had accomplished, in reverse, what German generals Guderian and Rommel had accomplished in 1940 with the Blitzkrieg. He also played a major role in defeating the Germans in the Battle of the Bulge, which was German’s last offensive gasp of the war.

          • http://marcum1@wildblue.net coal miner

            I meant he’s an idiot.

          • Tom Anderson

            Great!
            Someone who is accurate in HISTORY and SPELLING – CONGRATS!

            Interesting how these nincompoops believe ANYTHING that Hollywood feeds to them. All Hollywood has to do is include bright well pressed uniforms, shiny helmets, lots of bugle calls, a breast full of $3 medals, some gravemarkers and these kittens just lap it up. They believe THAT is history. The Moguls of Hollywood control this psuedo-conservatives with a low budget flick – amazing! Hollywood knows it has a winner – Hail the GREAT WARRIOR – sells tickets every time.

            Thanks for setting them right. Patton ended his career humiliated and demoted – Ike didn’t even want to speak with him. But let’s give Patton the benefit of the doubt he seemed to be suffering from head injuries or just simple dementia (like these guys?)

          • Tom Anderson

            Dear Coal Miner,

            I read recently that most of the NAZI generals did NOT think much of Rommel – despite Hollywood’s worship of him. Yes, those Generals said that he was aggressive, resourceful and excellent at stategy, but he took unnecessary risks and, in a few instances, exceeded the limits of expansion which his commanders had given to him. Hitler LOVED that, but, in the end, it thinned out his forces and lengthend his supply lines so much that they were easy pikins for our troops.

            It wasn’t until AFTER the war that the German public found out that Rommel did NOT die of an illness but had been “killed” by the GESTAPO. THAT! is what happens when the guvmint controls ALL of the information – If Ellsberg had lived in Germany during THAT period he would be dead and the German public would know the truth about their GREAT TANK COMMANDER – ROMMEL.

            Rommel and Patton were very similar – both overrated by Hollywood and these americans who worship at the feet of WARRIOR IMAGES conjured up by some friggin leftist Hollywood producer – nitwits with IQs smaller than their shoe size.

            I continue to be grateful to Ike and Washington – our TWO best Generals. WW2 would have panned out a bit differently if Ike had not been in the driver’s seat. And I have some illustrious company who feel the same way – Churchill, FDR (tho I don’t like him), DeGaulle (big nose snot), and, even that piss ant faggot, Montgomery. Who but Ike could have held all those crackpots together to mount the D-Day invasion?

            Ike’s Religion as a boy??? Do you need a hint?

  • Pete

    It’s Manifest Destiny ! We took Hawaii and bought Alaska – now they are both States ! It’s just a matter of time until we return to Vietnam to finish off the commies !!!

    Once them Red Chinese put enuff troops into Latin America, say good bye to Mexico ! We’ll annex that land and push all the natives South ! That Chinese are stupid people and don’t know they are being manipulated …

    It’s just a matter of time ….

    • Pete

      Just joking everybody ! Remember, WE ARE THE WORLD ! AMEN !

  • http://gunner689 gunner689

    There are two basic types of Generals and Admirals. The first kind is the fighting kind. There is a long list of which includes:
    George Washington, Danial Morgan, Stonewall Jackson, George Custer, Bedford Forrest, Chesty Puller, Bull Halsey, and General Swartzkof, to name just a few. They understand battlefield tactics and are leaders of men in war. God Bless their kind and we should pray that we always have them in the wings. They win battles and shorten wars, thus saving lives. They are the true warriors and saviors of our nation.
    The other type of Generals and Admirals is the political type. While they may know what it takes to win a war, their prime purpose is to accomodate politicians, including the President even when they know he’s wrong. Such officers are Eisenhower, Nimitz, and Powell. One of the main reasons we won WW2 was that FDR had enough sense not to micro-manage the war, unlike Truman, Ike, LBJ and G. Bush Sr. These types of leaders are administrators and politicians in uniform. They are a necessary impedement to fighting and winning wars, as long as the military has civilian control.

    • Tom Anderson

      Overall, Gunner689, I agree with you. But are YOU Crazy??? Why did you leave off Gen Grant??? Are you a Southern sympathizer? Grant could warrior as well as drink whiskey. And he wasn’t a terrible president either.

      Nimitz was a great guy – did you know that he saved the leader of NAZI Germany from the Firing squad? Quiz question – WHO was that NAZI leader who took control of NAZI Germany after Hitler’s suicide. Nimitz testified at HIS trial and saved his sorry ass. We used to visit Nimitz’s grave in San Bruno, CA when I was in elem. school. He refused to be buried in his southern-bible-belt home of Central TX.

      Also, I have no use for Powell – he LIED to the world in the midst of the UN General Assembly THEN he blames his piss poor intelligence on the CIA. He wasn’t able to “man up” to his own weakness – he simply spouted the same malarkey that Cheney and the CIA spoon fed him. He will go down in history as Cheney and Rumsfeld’s black puppet. Note also, that Patton BLAMED his mess up as being “set up” – yes, of course he was set up, but he shouldn’t BLAME anyone – he should have KNOWN that he was surrounded by cut throats – he just couldn’t keep his big mouth shut.

      • http://marcum1@wildblue.net coal miner

        Tom,

        It is commonly reported even in authoritative works about President Eisenhower that he was raised as a River Brethren by parents that were active in the River Brethren church. In fact, Dwight D. Eisenhower was raised a Jehovah’s Witness, a sect commonly called Russellites or Bible Students until 1931. His mother was active in the sect from 1895, when Dwight was five years old, until she died. Eisenhower’s father was also an active member, although after 1915 he eventually no longer considered himself a Witness.

      • http://marcum1@wildblue.net coal miner

        Tom Anderson,

        It was Alfred Roenberg.

        • http://marcum1@wildblue.net coal miner

          Rosenberg

      • http://gunner689 gunner689

        If you remember in my reply I said I was mentioning some, not all. The list would be too long and my memory is too short. Yes, i am basically a Southern sympathizer. I had relatives on both sides and while it was mostly a matter of where you were born as to your allegence, I might have been a Copperhead. As to Grant, many thought him a butcher after Cold Harbor. tens of thousands died because of his mass attack tactics. Fortunately for the North the South didn’t have the Gatling Gun. I believe the answer to your question is Admiral Durnitz (sic). I lost all respect for Powell when he retired without comment on Clinton’s allowing gays to serve in the military. He knew it was bad policy but kept his mouth shut on the subject.

    • http://?? Joe H.

      gunner,
      I have to disagree with one name on your list, George Armstrong Custer! He was an idiot! he was just like Westmoreland and underestimated the strength of the enemy!! He was responsible for the deaths of all that were with him at the little bighorn! Westmoreland was getting reports on troop strength and cutting them in half and multiplying the numbers of enemy KIAs to change the perspective of the Viet Nam war!! He is responsible for many of the deaths under his command!!!

      • http://gunner689 gunner689

        Every leader is responsible for the results of his decisions; good or bad. You can’t make an omlet without breaking eggs. You can’t win battles without taking casualties. As to Custer, he was a brilliant cavalry commander in the War of Northern Aggression. His tying down Jeb Stuart at Gettysburg was a prime reason the North won that battle and eventually the War. his actions at the Little Big Horn are definately open for discussion. Yes, he was a glory hound and had his eyes on the White House. His direct actions there to attack immediately were predicated by the fact that Sioux scouts had discovered them and thus didn’t allow time to do proper recon. He felt he had to attack or the enemy would flee as they usually did. His biggest mistake was to split his forces into 3 seperate units. Other than that his plan was sound and if Reno would have or could have carried on his diversion attack the plan may have worked. With the size of the Indian encampment and their recent victory over Crook’s column they were disposed to stand and fight. Perhaps if Custer hadn’t split the column they all would have been wiped out. If you’re going to judge Custer you have to look at his Civil War record also. Most people don’t go beyond the Little Big Horn.

  • chuckb

    tom anderson, ike never fired patton in 1943 or 1945. please address your source. ike never denigrated him in any way other than removing him from command after the slapping incident.

  • chuckb

    and by the way tom a., eisenhower was not a great general, he was a political hack and he got his rank in the army thru polit5ical connections. he was never a great battle general as patton and couldn’t even wear the same shoes as macarthur.
    i think your information is coming from esquire magazine, it certainly isn’t credible.

    • http://marcum1@wildblue.net coal miner

      Chuckb,

      General Patton was a racist.

      On black soldiers: “Individually they were good soldiers, but I expressed my belief at the time, and have never found the necessity of changing it, that a colored soldier cannot think fast enough to fight in armor.”

      • http://gunner689 gunner689

        Is it racist when it’s true?

        • http://marcum1@wildblue.net coal miner

          gunner689,

          “(Patton)…deserves a little less hero worship than he has gotten. He was a
          successful general, perhaps, but he was also a racist of the rawest and
          most vicious kind. His own writings show that he was convinced of the
          superiority of Northwestern Europeans, except the Irish, and was convinced
          of the inferiority of nonwhites. He also hated Jews and called Holocaust
          survivors “subhumans”. While such views were widespread in the officer
          corps in the 1920′s and ’30′s, Patton carried them to an extreme which
          hindered his ability to effectively act in the occupation of Germany. He
          was so far over the edge that I would say that he probably believed in
          Nordic superiority more than most of Hitler’s generals did. One good source
          for the history of antiSemitism in the Army is a book called “The ‘Jewish
          Threat’ “. It is quite a shocker. While he served his country bravely, we
          should never forget that indirectly attitudes such as those held by Patton
          and Lindbergh helped to prevent America from confronting Hitler or offering
          timely assistance to those he would go on to murder”. A quote from the Biography of Patton. By Terry D Janes.

          • http://marcum1@wildblue.net coal miner

            gunner,

            “Evidently the virus started by Morgenthau and Baruch of a Semitic revenge against all Germans is still working. … Harrison and his ilk believe that the Displaced Person is a human being, which he is not, and this applies particularly to the Jews, who are lower than animals.” Patton diary entry:September 15, 1945: Is he a racist or not?

          • http://gunner689 gunner689

            Please answer the question. Is it racist if it’s true ?

          • http://gunner689 gunner689

            Patton, like many others, were a product of their enviroment. Patton was a true son of the Confederacy. If memory serves me he was born in Va. and his father fought for the South. What do you think he would believe? We are all products of our enviroment and upbringing. As a WW1 officer he saw the desinigration of Black units in combat. He also held wide spread beliefs concerning International Jewery. Right or wrong he believed what he saw. I also happen to believe that Nothern Europeans, especially the Irish are the superior race. I think world history makes that perfectly clear.

          • Tom Anderson

            I had no idea that Patton was so extremely bigoted.

            Note that the movie did not dwell too much on his racial bigotry – sells more tickets that way.

            By the way, I am not at all Jewish (I think). Ancestors from Iceland and England mostly but I think that the Jews are, without question, the most superior race. Where would our country be without the Jews who have contributed to all of our sciences?

            I had a Jewish friend (92 years old) who died recently. Phd math graduate from Princeton and ALSO graduate of Julliard !!! Can you beat THAT??? But he was a little whimpy sort of guy who could not win a fight with a mouse. He wrote a math paper during the early 40′s which described the specific paths that ships in a convoy should steer in order to, on the average, avoid the most German torpedoes. That single stupid MATH paper saved MORE lives at sea than ALL of the US heroes who have thrown themselves on GRENADES. Thank YOU, Len.

            All of these other nitwits only thank low IQ army grunts, I thank YOU!

            The world would be a bit different if the Jewish brain power had been on the side of the axis powers – imagine Japan with the A bomb before we got it! The team that put together the theory and engineering of the A bomb was almost exclusively Jewish. If Einstein had not written his famous letter to FDR things would be very different. Einstein, later, said that THAT was the worst mistake of his life.

    • http://gunner689 gunner689

      As I recall he went straight from Lt. Col. to General. George C. Marshal convinced FDR that Ike would be a good administrator. He was right. He kept Montey and Patton on the same game plan.

    • Tom Anderson

      Chuck,

      I don’t want to insult someone by suggesting that they are illiterate, but you can try any of the biographies on Ike – OR, if that is too much for you, try to simply WIKI “PATTON”

      You are entitled to your own insignificant opinion of Ike. The historical FACT is that he was APPROVED by Churchill, DeGaulle, Stalin, Monty, and FDR. Patton was an embarrassment, but he could manipulate tanks pretty well. Patton ended up on the trash heap and Ike was elected Pres. Need I say more?

      Gen. McCrystal lied to a GOLD STAR mother (Pat Tillman’s mom) and was never held accountable for it. He ADMITTED he lied about the circumstances of Tillman’s death directly to the mother. In the past, Army people would have been outraged by lying to a GOLD STAR mother. THe Tillman family, to this day, says that the War Dept (oh, forgive me, the Def Dept) continues to LIE about the incident. The army destroyed his diary (WHY?) and burned his uniform (WHY?) then they all lied about his GREAT sacrifice – he was simply slaughtered like a goat by his own men – a fragging? I don’t have much respect for an army which would lie to a GOLD STAR MOTHER.

  • http://marcum1@wildblue.net coal miner

    Quote for the day:

    “Never awake me when you have good news to announce, because with good news nothing presses; but when you have bad news, arouse me immediately, for then there is not an instant to be lost.”

    Napoléon Bonaparte

    • Tom Anderson

      Thanks, Coal Miner and Gunner689,

      What do you do in your spare time, teach history at Princeton?

      And, YES, you are right – Hitler left instructions that the prior head of the German Navy, Doernitz, would take over as head of the NAZI party and Germany upon Hitler’s death.

      Doernitz was accused of naval war crimes – they were goin to hang him when Nimitz came to his defense and TESTIFIED that the German Navy under Doernitz, “HAD NOT DONE ANYTHING MORE OR LESS THAN THE US NAVY HAD DONE” – THAT testimony save Doernitz’s butt.

      And another GRAND PRIZE – YES, Ike was raised as a “Jehovah’s Witness” – all the male members of his family, including himself turned aside from it when the family sold all they had for the advent of Jesus in the 20′s (or so). The mother remained staunch JW to the end. As I recall, Ike took the oath of Pres with his hand on two Bibles, the standard and his family JW version. Ike did his best to NOT inform anyone of his strange boyhood religion. I think it benefitted him. I don’t believe that there is any evidence that Ike was overtly racist or anti-semite like Patton or Truman.

      As I recall, Truman was a raving anti-Semite and would NOT allow a Jew to cross his home’s threshold. FDR wasn’t bending over backwards to help the Jews either. Ike was hotter than a skillet when he inspected the concentration camps.

      From one racist to another, I also believe the N. Europeans possess a “blessed” set of DNA, but, way beyond that is the JEWISH DNA – The Jewish DNA is precious to mankind – NOT only because JC and Einstein were Jews. But, of course, I am still royally pissed over the murderous atrocity that Israel committed when they murdered (on purpose I will add) our US sailors on the USS LIBERTY. And even madder at LBJ for withdrawing the fighter support sent to protect the USS LIBERTY and simply let the Israelis kill our men while the ship was, essentially, dead in the water. ROYALLY PISSED!!! Where is the GOP on THAT subject?????? I think we should NOT SEND A PENNY more until Israel comes clean on the USS LIBERTY and the guilty are swinging from the gallows.

      • http://?? Joe H.

        tom,
        one of my friends family is very Jewish. now the daughter is VERY smart!! going to college as we speak. The son?? Nice kid well mannered but dumb as a bag of rocks!!! No college for him!! the dad? Not dumb, but not brilliant and the wife is about average!! now please explain to me where that Superior gene went!!! BTW, I think the world of the whole family, would walk hot coals for them but I don’t mince words!!

        • Tom Anderson

          Of course, I have met a lot of Jews with IQs matching their belt size too. A lot of them seen very unstable mentally too – I think that that goes with the territory. Many Nobel winners have autistic children.

          But a very simple review of the # of JEWS who have won Nobel prizes in Physics / Science makes clear that it is WAY OUT OF PROPORTION to their % of population. Every once in a while THAT outstanding gene produces geniuses – - more so with Jews.

          Do you have any idea of what is going on with electronic component manufacturers here in the USA? A company called VISHAY is buying up ALL of the old American companies. VISHAY is an Israeli company. Why does VISHAY have so much “throw weight”? Because they developed and patented an elegant way of making resistors. So what??? Those resistors are BETTER in nearly every way than any resistors anywhere on the earth. VISHAY resistors cost less than a dollar to make and they sell them for $25 to $100 each. VISHAY has been using that profit margin to buy up all of the competition. VISHAY is just ONE example. Thank GOD most of those smart JEWS have been on our side.

          There aren’t very many Jews in the world – Jesus C. was one of those and Einstein was another. Those two alone are sufficient to outweigh most other races.

          I found out just recently the JEWISH history of property and inheritance rights. (which, I believe, the Judeo-Christian societies have mostly adopted). The JEWS firmly established the inheritance rights of daughters (and, hence, women) while Moses was running things – - THOUSANDS of years ago. Moses said that that was GOD’s will, I don’t know and don’t care (Numbers Chapter 27). But the elevated position of women in Jewish society was an evolutionary advance which was awesome and incredible. Remember that the USA only granted suffrage in early 1900′s. The present treatment of our women TODAY has a lot to owe to those Jews of thousands of years ago. Most other societies treated women less than fire wood – NO property rights at all.

          I just don’t understand the business about circumcision – WHY was THAT so important for the Jews?

        • http://marcum1@wildblue.net coal miner

          JoeH,

          Very well said.I agree with you on this one.There is no such thing as a superior race.

      • http://gunner689 gunner689

        Thanks for the compliment Tom. No, in my spare time I own and operate a small oil and gas company but I do love History. After a couple of mini-strokes my memory is not as sharp as it once was, on details.
        You are right about Jewish people; they are God’s chosen people. I also believe that only the real ones live in Israel, other than the ones still kept captive in the former Soviet Union.

        • Tom Anderson

          Gunner,

          Oil and gas guy?? I started my career with Mobil in 1980. I was geophysicist on several of Mobil’s 6 (at the time) seismic field crews. Now, Mobil/Exxon has ZERO seismic field crews in the USA.

          Princeton would be lucky to have you in their HISTORY dept, mini-strokes and all. I have met some outstandingly brilliant US Marines (Pete McCloskey, R -US Congressional REP of Calif, for example) but never from the US Army. Most of the army guys that I have met are relatively dogmatic and can’t think themselves out of a paper sack.

          I have been following the history of the USS Liberty for many years now. My brother-in-law was a history professor (and merchant marine during WW2) who first clued me into that atrocity. I have never heard the version of your analysis. It doesn’t make sense to me. If one of our intelligence ships was ordered to share intel with the Egyptians why would LBJ and McNamara recall the jet squadrons sent from the carrier to protect it? It seems that THEY (LBJ) and the Israelis wanted it sunk.

          My spin on the USS Liberty was that LBJ had been funneling illicit weapons to Israel (weapons which, by US law, were not available to Israel). Israel was paying LBJ under the table and his democrat horde in return (with our tax dollars of course). The USS Liberty was picking up electromagnetic intel which was clear evidence that Isreal had possession of those illicit weapon systems – LBJ agreed with the Israelis to kill all those guys so no evidence remained. They attempted to sink it and kill all our sailors.

          The other spin was that there was a horrible civilian Egyptian atrocity which was occurring onshore during the same time (committed by Israeli military) and the Israelis wanted to make sure that no details of those civ. murders got out.

          But whatever the spin – IT WAS NO ACCIDENT as McCain’s admiral father tried to portray it. The USS Liberty was flying the US FLAG on a clear and cloud free day – the Isaeli jets passed over the ship several times. The Israel PT boats machine gunned the lifeboats as they were deployed by the Liberty’s crew – a clear and egregious violation of international law.

          Yes, Jews are Chosen – I just hope we have enough of them on the USA side to tip the balance with respect to those in Israel who would throw us to the wolves to benefit Isreal (as in USS Liberty). I recall that there was a Jew aboard the Liberty who felt horrible when he saw the blue star of David on the bottom of the attacking planes.

          • http://gunner689 gunner689

            Once again, thank’s for the compliment. My dream job was always to teach military history at the Naval Academy. It would certainley be interesting to know why the Liberty was attacked. there was a lot of weird shit going on back then which we’ll probably know the straight scoop on.

      • http://gunner689 gunner689

        Tom;
        The Liberty was a spy ship that was off the coast of Israel during the 67 Arab-Israeli War. It was reportedly sending info to Egypt concerning Israeli troop and air operations during the war. The story was that LBJ didn’t want Israel to have too great a victory and retake lost territory and for the Egyptian Army and Air Force to suffer too great a loss.

        If you were an Israeli General what would you have done? I do fell terrible about the casualties on the Liberty and also on the Pueblo.
        I was fighting in Nam with the Marines at that time and there was talk about us being sent there.

  • chuckb

    tom anderson

    please paste the comments about ike firing patton. it never happened.

    patton ended up on the trash heap? only in your mind. patton was one of our very great generals, ike never fought on the battlefied, patton fought in both ww1 and ww2. ike was supreme commander in europe and again never on the battlefield. he never fought in either war where he was exposed to enemy fire. ww1 he never went overseas.

    mccrystal covered up the tillman incident to shelter the tillman family from more grieve, i believe they have forgiven him.

    all these people with the exception of ike you have denigrated one way or the other. patton served this country in war and on the battlefield far more than ike. i consider him a great general.

  • Tom Anderson

    After the close of World War II, Patton (now a full general) became the occupation commander of Bavaria, and made arrangements for saving the world-famous Lipizzaner stallions of Vienna, fearing that the Red Army would slaughter the horses for food. Patton was relieved of duty after openly revolting against the punitive occupation directive JCS 1067.[58] His view of the war was that with Hitler gone, the German army could be rebuilt into an ally in a potential war against the Russians, whom Patton notoriously despised and considered a greater menace than the Germans. During this period, he wrote that the Allied victory would be in vain if it led to a tyrant worse than Hitler and an army of “Mongolian savages” controlling half of Europe. Eisenhower had at last had enough, relieving Patton of all duties and ordering his return to the United States. When Patton openly accused Eisenhower of caring more about a political career than his military duties, their friendship effectively came to an end.

    ck,

    I don’t know if your are serious or not – Ike Fired Patton – the incident is in ALL of Ike’s biographies but here is the article from WIKI (it is SOOOO simple – just look up PATTON on WIKI):

    Now, Chuck, perhaps you will disagree with me, but I consider “relieving Patton of ALL duties” means FIRED HIS ASS! Ike was furious at Patton!!! What planet are you on?

    Now, please tell me what is wrong with you ? THis is EVERYWHERE – every guy who has read these posts KNOWS about Ike firing Patton – I suggest you READ in a library instead of just looking at cheap Hollywood B flicks.

  • Tom Anderson

    Coincidentally, John Eisenhower, son of General Dwight D. Eisenhower, had only recently (September, 1945) been assigned to Fifteenth U.S. Army. In his book General Ike: A Personal Reminiscence he writes[8] that one day in October 1945 ‘Ike’ told him I had to fire George Patton today. John Eisenhower then served under Patton for a short time.

    Continuing as commander of Fifteenth U.S. Army, in November 1945 Patton replaced Gen. Eisenhower as commander of U.S. Forces in Europe. He was very conflicted during this time, and even considered resigning from the Army (instead of retiring, which would leave him still subject to Army regulations). Saying that a hunting trip might be a good outing to take his mind off his present difficulties, he set out by car to go pheasant hunting. On the way Gen. Patton’s limousine was involved in a collision and he died later from his injuries, on December 21, 1945.

    So you don’t believe General John Eisenhower??? You can read this yourself under the “history of the 15th Army” – Patton was assigned to it as punishment – it was a complete dead end and has been deactivated.

    Ike FIRED Patton’s ASS – your hero was a humiliated bufoon – Even Gen. Bradley rated Patton VERY LOW ( #6 ) – - Patton was a good general but a big pain in the butt with a mouth that never quit and got him FIRED.

    Now do you believe??? Where do you get all your illogical nonsense?

    • libertytrain

      Last I saw of his car, it was in Ft. Knox at it’s museum. Seems to me there’s still a question that the accident may not have been an accident. I believe there was some notation about that on the placard next to the car.

  • Tom Anderson

    Gen. McChrystal “sheltered” the Tillman family???

    Now HOW do YOU know what McChrystal’s motives were??? But, apparently, you accept the TRUTH that he lied to Tillman’s mother.

    I don’t believe that ANY person has the right to decide to lie about the death of a son, let along an US Army General. McChrystal has expressed regret for what he did.

    You have YOUR opinion and I have mine. I believe that McCrystal simply USED Pat Tillman to help “sell the war” and lying to the mother was part of that scenario.

    And what did Bush do to punish McChrystal?? He promoted him!!! Just like Obama until the Rolling Stone article.

    Anyway, I like to see a defender of that as*hole (any person who lies to a GOLD STAR MOTHER is lower than a cockroach). Yes, PLEASE, justify his lying to a GOLD STAR MOTHER! Did THAT lie do any good??? The MOTHER found out the truth eventually anyway.

    The last televised intervu that I saw of Pat’s mother she is still furious with the military and states CATEGORICALLY that the military TO THIS DAY CONTINUES to lie about the death of her son – the family continues to demand Tillman’s diary – YOU tell me why they burned his uniform??? Isn’t burning a dead soldier’s uniform (especially in a potential fraggin incident) against ALL army regulations??? I call that “destruction of evidence”. And I think that the Tillman family agrees with me. But the admin used Pat’s death VERY effectively to sell the war. What kind of criminals are running around there?

    I had a distant family member (officer on a naval vessel) who was shot in the back by a 12 gauge in the mess hall in the 70′s – there was never any court martial. That is ANOTHER story. The murderer is out of jail now. Military Justice – - great sense of humor there.

    But I do highly consider Ike, Omar Bradley, Gen Grant, and many other officers. Your criteria about “being at the front” in order to be a great general is nonsensical. Ike was much more effective for the war effort sitting back in London conferring with Churchill then busting his balls on the front line. That is why FDR put him there – it would have been a waste for Ike to be on the front lines.

    • http://gunner689 gunner689

      Let me guess, your relatives shooter was black. the race war that went on in the military after 1968 is a big story that never gets told. I could write a book.

      • Tom Anderson

        Gunner,

        Your comment gave me chills! How did you know he was black?

        The family has never brought up any issue of race. But the guy was black. The story was that he was on heavy duty drugs – the ship medic knew it and the ship’s capt knew it. He was really looney on whatever he was taking.

        The story I heard was that there was a firearms drill – the crew was issued shotguns etc. but without ammo. I an not a naval guy but, apparently, there is a VERY CLEAR separation between GUNS and AMMO – they are clearly under separate lock and key. Well, apparently the guy bought some 12 gauge civilian ammo and used it in the ship’s 12 gauge that he had been issued for the drill – went into the ship’s mess and shot my relative in the back point-blank – messy and instant death.

        The interesting thing is that there was NEVER a courts martial – the military avoided all of that by saying that the guy was crazy. I believe that the military did THAT because a courts martial would have directly implicated the ship’s capt and medic since they KNEW of the killer’s addiction and that he was dangerous. The military didn’t want the bad press either. The military has paid off the family handsomely – the black guy is out of the phycho prison now and has begged the family for forgiveness. It is a pitiful mess – I blame the military and the ship’s capt entirely – they KNEW the black guy was dangerous but let the situation continue to escalate.

        It was just recently that I read a book about the massive amount of fragging in Nam and the way the military swept most of those cases under the carpet – that book mentioned the many many blacks who simply refused to fight the White Man’s war – while their relatives were burning our cities here in the states.

        One of my best friends (army) spent most of his time in Nam in the jungle – front lines. He said that he saw 2 first lewies fragged and he would have “done” another first lewy if he hadn’t finished his tour. Other of my friends, army and Marine say that NONE of that sort of thing happened. Interesting that the left hand doesn’t know the right hand.

        • http://gunner689 gunner689

          It’s late and I’m too tired to write a long reply to this topic, but will soon. In 1968 the Black Power-Civil Rights Movement spilled over into the military. There was plenty of violence and serious disciplinary problems on all US bases and ships. Discipline went right out the window. The higher ups were afraid or didn’t know how to deal with it so basically they didn’t. This chaos and anarchy went on for several years in all branches of the military. I visited Camp Lejuene, after I got out, in 1975 and it was still there. It caused many fine senior NCOs and officers to get out of the military. Many lives were lost, mostly whites jumped by black gangs, during those years.

  • chuckb

    tom a.

    maybe you don’t understand there’s a difference in being relieved of a command and being fired.
    As a result of his ”unofficial” remarks, he was relieved of the command of his beloved 3rd Army.Though he had been showered with honors when he had returned to the United States, there was obviously a great deal of discussion in Washington about what to do with Patton now that the war was over. Invaluable in war, Patton’s temperament was somewhat of a liability in peacetime. In many ways, it would have been fitting for Patton the warrior to have died on the battlefield, but that was not to be. Despite the fact that throughout his military career he had constantly exposed himself to danger, it was a traffic accident, not a bullet, which took Patton’s life. In December 1945, his car was hit by a truck and he was severely injured. On 21 December he died from these injures and was buried in Luxembourg a country which still considers George S. Patton its liberator.

    Since his death, Patton’s reputation has continued to grow until he is now considered by many the greatest military commander in U. S history. The praise levered on him by the men of 3rd Army has nearly drowned out any lingering criticisms about his brashness. Even today, 3rd Army veterans are proud to make it known that they served under Patton. George Patton’s ambition as a boy was to be a general, a hero and a warrior. History has proven that he succeeded magnificently at all three.

  • Tom Anderson

    Near the end of the war (February 1945), Eisenhower ranked the capabilities of U.S. generals in Europe. Omar Bradley and Carl Spaatz he rated as the best. Walter Bedell Smith was ranked number 3, and Patton number 4, followed by Mark Clark, and Lucian Truscott.

    Bradley himself had been asked by Eisenhower to rank all the generals in December 1945, and he ranked them as follows: Bedell Smith #1, Spaatz #2, Courtney Hodges #3, Elwood Quesada #4, Truscott #5, and Patton #6 (others were also ranked)[60]

    You are allowed your opinion, but it disagrees with the Generals who actually worked with Patton. They classified him as second rate (actually #6 rate by Omar Bradley). They KNEW him. I don’t think YOU knew him and I did not know him. I accept Ike and Omar opinion of Patton. Your opinion is simply Hollywood modern revisionism.

    Ike’s son said that Ike told him that Ike “FIRED” Patton – NOT “relieved of command”. So YOU can say he wasn’t fired by Ike. But Ike’s son said Patton was fired and Ike fired him. If your boss FIRES you, YOU ARE FIRED! And Ike said he FIRED Patton. Of course, you can claim that Ike’s son was a liar … after all he was an army officer too.

    And if you believe that when your boss says, “you are fired” means something other than “you are fired”, then just go ahead. Is this method of thinking called the “military mind”?

  • chuckb

    tom a, you are impressed with media lingo. they use the term fired to make headlines.

    i do not get my information from the movies.
    general Patton was relieved of his command of the 7th Army on 31
    December 1943, more than four months after the “slapping incident”.
    This long time span between the incident and the consequences may seem
    odd at first sight; but the “slapping incident” did not become a
    public scandal before late November 1944.

    Later, General Patton was commander of the 3rd Army from 26 January
    1944 to 7 October 1945. when relieved of that command he was given command of the 15th army in oct. 1945. hardly resembles being fired wouldn’t you say. in newspaper lingo being relieved of a command is being fired.

  • chuckb

    tom a, eisenhower got to where he was through political appointments, omar bradley was nothing more than a politician in uniform. one and only good thing about fdr he left the war to the generals.

    if you are depending on information you get on the internet, be careful, they have omitted lots of history and revised information to their own thinking.

  • URKiddinMee

    An interesting side note is that General Giap (ARVN Commander) told Ho Chi Minh (When he was almost ready to capitulate at the Paris “Peace Table”) to “wait a bit longer” sincethe tide of public opinion in the US was turning agaisnt the war. He wars also correct in his analysis that the US would soon “throw in the towel.” It’s the only war in history where our valiant troops won almost EVERY battle (Including the Tet Offensive) yet the leaders made their sacrifices be in vain. The same “hair-demons” who led the protests, violence and bombings are now in charge of our government. Meanwhile, the leftist media has only gotten worse since Cronkite.

    • Tom Anderson

      Mr. Mee,

      I was never one of those “hair-demons” but I was among them and military guys too. My transformation from staunch GOPer to Ron Paul follower and HATER of both parties had its genesis at a meeting with GOPer Pete McCloskey (R-CA) in the late 60s.

      My Junior College physics professor knew Pete well and asked the group of physics students if we would like to hear Pete (after class, of course, on our own time). I was never the same after THAT meeting with Pete.

      Pete is a retired Korea era be-medaled US Marine, GOP rep to US Congress and graduate of Stanford Univ – - – No one has more solid GOP credentials. The meeting was during the latter period of Nam. Pete told us that he had studied all aspects of Nam and had come to a conclusion very different than the reasons given by LBJ. He believed that it was NOT in US interests to pursue that mess – that it was, mostly, a civil war between N and S. I did NOT know what to think – I was NOT an expert on Nam. But the THING THAT DID IMPRESS and CHANGED ME was that the GOP BLACKBALLED Pete! THAT was the GOP reaction to a “difference of opinion” – Pete was excluded from ALL GOP meetings and association.

      And in my opinion there is NOT a more patriotic american than Pete. And the GOP treated him like sh*t because of his different views.

      The short meeting with Pete eventually changed me from a staunch GOPer to one who HATES Bush, Cheney, LBJ, Gen. McChrystal and both of our present parties – both of whom consider our defense budget sacrosanct but REFUSE to pay for it – they just borrow from China to wage their favorite wars in Iraq and Afghan.

      Also, after seeing how the military treated the bodies of their dead soldiers at TRAVIS AFB, I gained a healthy DISRESPECT for the US Military. I don’t smoke pot, don’t have long-hair, but you will find few people to want to tear down the false image of the “US Warrior” – clip nearly ALL of the wings of our fat generals, and shut-down our nearly 700 military bases around the world – try and hang BUSH and Cheney and Rummy.

      Oh, yes, if it makes you any happier, I would have gone after Cronkite FIRST – tried and hanged him for complicitiy – swinging right next to LBJ.

      Don’t waste your time trying to justify the defeat of the US Military in Nam. The US gave the military gobs of money and gobs of bodies – admit it was a horrible military defeat (yes you are right – it was a political fight too – but EVERY war is political – don’t whimp out). If the military (Westmoreland) felt that the political will was NOT sufficient then he should have not WASTED all of those men and money there – he was a shameful disgrace to the, mostly, proud history of the US military.

      Leftist media (NPR) versus Rightist media (Fox). The difference is tweedle-dee-tweedle-dum. Neither of those media address why Bush disarmed out pilots 2 months before 9/11 or why he ordered the “stand-down” of NORAD. Neither party wants to touch THOSE questions.

  • chuckb

    tom, you amaze me, first you want to hang jane fonda, then you admire pete mccloskey, whats the difference other than mccloskey didn’t make it to hanoi.

    by the way your slanderous remarks about the war in vietnam is not quite right. the u.s.forces never lost a battle and the reason we didn’t finish the job was called the rules of engagement. look up who sets the rules.

  • Tom Anderson

    Thanks, Chuck. And I appreciate your point of view. You despise McCloskey, Omar Bradley and Ike and Love that potty-mouthed, vicious bigot, anti-semite, and insubordinate Patton, good (or, at least, mediocre) General but Terrible Guy!

    It would only make sense that you consider Fonda and McCloskey in the same boat. Pete was a Korea medaled US Marine. Apparently, he doesn’t rate with you.

    Let’s see. As I recall, the US military pulled out of Nam with tail between legs – or am I wrong? Them is FACTS. Only you apologists point the finger at the politicians and whimper, “it wasn’t OUR fault”. Come on – MAN UP! You guys suffered a horribly messy DEFEAT!! It cost us tons of blood and treasure and YOU blame it on politicians. And you deserted your friends there to be massacred by the commies. Don’t try to assauge your guilt – MAN UP!

    Yes, go ahead and whimper, “we won every battle”. Who gives a damn when, in the end, you loose the war??? I wish you had lost every battle but won the war. What kind of logic is yours?

    Of course it was politicians – so what! YOU were the one who obeyed the pols orders! If you start a war then FINISH IT or don’t go in. Don’t try to excuse your incompetence and defeat by blaming on politicians.

    Westmoreland snapped his heels to those “rules of engagement” – he AGREED and OBEYED them!!! So don’t give me THAT excuse. Can’t you come up with something better?

    On the next war, if YOU don’t like the rules of engagement then don’t go! Once you sign on the dotted line you agree to accept what the pols throw at you – no whimpering allowed! There are other Nam vets who analyze their time there and LEARNED from it – seems that you are stuck.

  • chuckb

    tom, that’s a terrible thing to say about our troops, the military never left vietnam with their tails between their legs. the democrats in the congress are the ones you can blame for the withdrawal as it was, especially ones like ted kennedy, anti war activists like leahy, jane fonda and your friend mccloskey. just to name a few. like i said before we didn’t lose any battles and our troops were fighting under rules of engagement that kept them from destroying north vietnam. we could have ended that war in short time if not for the liberal politicians in wash. so don’t denigrate our fighting forces, they were then and still are the best in the world.
    our troops cannot decide if they like the rules of engagement or not, theirs are to do or die.
    something else that little is spoken of, when our bombers were taking odd for a bombing run our own media warned north vietnam our bombers were on the way.
    do you ever stop and think, the two wars we fought against communist forces are the ones the protesters were against our winning. where were these protesters when ww2 came along? even henry fonda joined up.

    • http://gunner689 gunner689

      ChuckB: don’t forget our wonderful media and their trash the troops campaign. They convinced everyone back home that we were drugged up baby killers. The dummies back out bought it. End results ostracism and forget about a decent job. any wonder some guys went off their nut. it wasn’t the war, it was the coming home.

  • chuckb

    gunner689, you are right. we can thank walter cronkite and dan rather, they above all the rest did their best to cause our moral downfall in vietnam and were brazen enough afterward to brag about it. the liberals call cronkite the father of journalism, both he and rather are dirty sob’s.

  • Tom Anderson

    I have a very close friend (USAF) who was a pilot/captn of a B-52 who flew regular bombing runs over N Nam. A better guy has never lived. He has only mentioned, briefly, his time in Nam to me once and his voice broke and tears welled-up in his eyes. I respect him too much to ask any of the details.

    I also have a HUGE (6’6″) US Marine friend who served early in Nam – 1965 and 66. He stridently believes that we should have stayed and held the South. His voice chokes up when he talks about us pulling out – - he found out later what had happened to some of his close S. Nam contact friends once the commies took over – not pretty.

    Another Army co-worker of mine – sharp and member of Mensa – two tours in Nam as a translator. He swore to me that there was absolutely NO drug use in Nam and no fragging or any other Hollywood nonsense. Of course, he was always by the side of an officer and not on the front lines.

    My very best friend and co-worker at Mobil was on front lines in Nam. The judge offered him two years in the pen or the Army for attempting to kill his Father (long story – father drank and beat up the Mom – police arrest my friend rather than father). He told me that two of his 1st LTs were fragged. I believe him. He said that a black guy in his group took a liking to a cute woman in the village, one night shot the husband, raped the woman and, then, shot and killed her. My friend said that they sent him to LBJ for a few months but then let him out without any further punishment. My friend told me that I could NEVER comprehend what was going on there.

    My most personal experience was when I met the arriving TWA planes arriving into TRAVIS AFB. We mechanics had to wait at the foot of the ramp as the doors were opened and the returning troops streamed out. I sure wish that I had had videos of those scenes. We mechanics were the first on the plane after the troops were off. Such a strong impression. Every single plane had a sickening smell of vomit and Aqua Velva aftershave. The guys were given baggies of toiletries. The smell of vomit was so strong that they would open the aftershave and shake it out all around them. The airlines packed the guys in like sardines to maximize profits and there were always many sick ones onboard.

    The funny thing is that customs NEVER checked the arriving planes and the troops would get cold feet and drop or hide “things” on the plane for fear of being caught in customs. So once we mechanics got into the plane we picked over the cadaver. Besides the horrible smell, the most interesting thing to me was the floor of the plane was completely plastered with military script – I hadn’t a clue about those little pcs of paper until I ran into them on the planes. I suppose they became useless in the States and the troops just dumped them on the floor – I sensed some disgust about the scripts by that behavior. Most of the mechanics had deep tool boxes with them and they had taken out all of the tools from the bottom compartment. And as quickly as possible they would search under the seat cushions, seat backs, lavs, etc. BOY! The things we found!!! Every kind of drug and drug aparatus imaginable – pot and heavy-duty stuff too – to smoke, drink, inject, or sniff. Knives, Guns – pistols and 45s. It was a treasure trove for those mechanics. There were lots of polaroid porno photos with Asian girls draped over guys – nude and in every sex position imaginable (wives might not appreciate). My personal recollections.

    I have NEVER thanked a vet for his service. I think that is simple stinkin patronization. I remember back in the 50′s – there wasn’t any sort of campaign about “thank you for your service” back then. But there was a strong campaign to HIRE vets in the 50s. In my low-level management position at Mobil I personally hired several Viet vets – NOT because they were vets, necessarily, but because they were the best we could find.

    I despise the blood and treasure which was WASTED for nothing in Nam. McCloskey tried his best to bring that mess to a halt as quickly as possible – the LONGER it dragged out the more troops died. Now, the commies have taken over the South and our GOP and DEMOS are dealing with that SAME commie guvmint that killed all of our troops. SHAME!

    Both Bush and Obama have hijacked my tax dollars and our most cherished symbols to glorify the WARRIOR mentality (Bush – “Bring it ON”). We spend more than any other nation on warmongering and the arms industry. Our Iraq undeclared war has removed the MOST EFFECTIVE enemy of Iran – that lunacy stinks to high heaven. And our cost-per-kill in Afghan is astronomical while the Taliban lives off wild onions and scraps.

    I believe that we should fight for peace MORE strongly than we press for war. But I have thrown in the towel – the USA will expend its wealth in distant and useless wars til it is an empty empire and China will pick over the remaining carrion. Rome did it, England did it and now it is our turn and our Military Industrial Complex cannot do it quickly enough.

    So, Chuck, do you hate Gen. Smedley Butler as much as Pete McCloskey, Omar Bradley and Ike? Was he one of your hated political whimp generals? You know where I am going with this.

    You have an interesting view of Cronkite. He was as PRO-war as you can imagine – LBJ had him in his pocket until the tide changed. He lapped up everything the military fed him and, then, regurgitated it to the US public. But once the tide changed he changed with it. Same with Tip O’Neil – super-pro-war Hawk. I have read his book – Speaker of the House. Fat slob! But he relates what changed him into a dove – relentless and intelligent attacks from his own kids.

    I spent most of the Nam years in the SFO bay area. I NEVER saw any disrespectful treatment of returning soldiers. And I was supposedly in the WORST area for that sort of thing. I haven’t kept a count, but I think that more students/Hippies were killed by US Troops/National Guard than visa versa. Did ANY soldiers die by attacks from Hippies or students? You know the flip side of that question.

  • chuckb

    tom

    you keep referring to my hate of ike, omar bradley and mccloskey, i don’t hate them. i voted for ike twice.
    do a little research on ike and what he did to the german prisoners of war after ww2.

    i don’t respect anyone who protested in the manner such as jane fonda and i lost all respect for cronkite when he and dan rather did their best to demoralize the public on the vietnam war, they probably caused the life of many of our troops in the war by their actions, then to come out years later and admit it.
    mccloskey didn’t show much class by doing the same thing and i disagreed of his actions.

    gen butler and i agree that this nation should stay out of foreign affairs and not become the worlds policeman.

    take some time and do a little research on the russian revolution and the aftermath of it’s consequence. this changed the world and every war since.
    hippies were inconsequential, they were the product of the russian revolution.

  • chuckb

    tom. there’s another political hack i forgot to throw into this conversation, gen george marshall, he was the hit man for fdr,.

    ikw, marshall,( army chief of staff), bradley none of these generals ever led their troops into combat. all were administrative generals or aides to battlefield commanders.

    you can thank gen. marshall for ho chi minh.

  • Tom Anderson

    I certainly agree that the USA should NOT be the world’s cop – Butler said,”war is a racket”. And I generally agree with him. Nam was a total waste of money and blood. So WHO to blame for that mess – LBJ LIED about Tonkin attack – but the military HAS to share a lot of the blame. They could have told the US public the truth. And the truth eventually came out but only after gobs of money and blood had gone down the drain. Silver dissappeared from our coins due to it.

    Likewise, Iraq. Bush simply removed Iran’s worst enemy. Saddam was never a threat to us and never attacked us. Now Iran and Iraq are kissin cousins thanks to Bush, Cheney, Rummy.

    Marshall I know nothing about. I understand that ho chi minh petitioned Truman for aid and Truman never responded to his request so ho turned to the commies for help – at least that is the story.

    You seem to consider the “in the trenches” generals as the only ones who count – leading troops into battle etc. I consider the task of keeping DeGaulle, Churchill, FDR and Monty all together to be a remarkable feat. I have considered Ike’s weakest point that he whimped out when McCarthy accused him of being weak on commies. And, apparently, Prescott Bush was one of Ike’s key political mentors. I have no use for ANY of the Bushs – especially Prescott.

    The GOP was strident about NOT getting into the war in Europe UNTIL Pearl. That old GOP was, essentially, peaceloving. Now the GOP gets into every war it can. And if there isn’t a war they whip one up.

    As long as we have such great resources dedicated to WORSHIP of the WARRIOR rather than the peacemaker, farmer, scientist, industrialist, etc are nation will follow England and other empires into the quagmire of fighting foreign, undeclared, unconstitutional wars.

    During our Revolutionary War we had a tremendous cost-per-kill advantage over the enemy. That has sunk lower and lower for each war the US has gotten into. Now, in Afghan the cost-per-kill is completely lopsided AGAINST us. Just like Nam, it would be cheaper to PAY all of the Taliban to be our friends (or stop fighting us). But WHAT the HELL are we doing there anyway? Gen Butler would say to keep Wall Street satisfied.

  • chuckb

    my belief is, we went into iraq to protect israel, the israeli’s have a strong influence in the u.s. congress. you will note that many of the liberal democratic jewish senate and congressmen voted for the iraq resolution. when the public started to turn against the war, these same democrats also came out against it, by then iraq was no longer a threat and it was political expediency to do so.

    you can go back to the russian revolution and trace the path of communism to new york, germany and everywhere they could find a foothold, they move thru labor movements and this infiltration in our country has caused nothing but trouble for the last eighty years and yes big business profits off these wars. you can’t point the finger at the republicans for starting these wars, it seems the democrats were the ones that got us into ww2, korea and vietnam. big financiers, such as soros, lewis and labor unions have their hand into it also, the democratic party has more than it’s share of communist.
    start the money trail to the russian revolution and it will give you the answer.

    • Tom Anderson

      Gosh, Chuck,

      With the exception of Ike firing Patton, we see eye-to-eye. I agree about Israel being in back of the Iraq invastion – Bush tapped into THAT Israeli support (normally, the DEMOS are collecting our tax dollars that come funneled back here into political coffers). We are simply Israel’s cheap-whore mercenary. Removing Iran’s worst enemy (Sadam) diminished the security of the USA.

      And, YES, I hate commies as much or more than you! Weaker minded individuals sugggest that NOT wanting to get involved in an internal Civil War in Nam means that you must be a commie lover – ON THE CONTRARY. I want our blood and treasure preserved for a REAL fight – like with Iran or China or N Korea – - – NOW THOSE WILL BE REAL WARS. We are grinding down our military and expending our treasure on illiterate Afghans who never attacked us.

      I believe that that intercontinental missile that was launched from the sub 15 miles off the coast of LA was a Chinese sub – poking a stick in our eye. ALL media – especially FOX NEWS – have ignored that MOST serious threat to our security EVER!!!

      Yes, the DEMOS got us involved in all those wars – but NOW the GOP under Bush wants to get into the WAR action just like the DEMOS have done for years. ONLY Ron Paul is squaking about THAT – seems that most of the rest of the GOP are in Israel’s pocket and the MIC.

      I consider that Ike had GREAT courage to put his reputation on the line by attacking the MIC in his LAST official act. Wouldn’t you agree that it was a self-less act. Ike had NOTHING to gain and everything to loose by issuing that solemn warning. I still respect him even with all of his warts.

  • chuckb

    tom, i don’t know for sure, but even the president can’t fire a general, i think this has to be done by the pentagon. ike was the supreme commander in europe and i don’t think he could fire a general, patton like macarthur was relieved of his command so was mcchrystal, patton was reassigned to the 15th army, macarthur resigned months later and i believe mcchrystal resigned after his removal from afghanistan. i am not arguing with you about this and i believe the term these generals were fired is media lingo. being fired would mean their ouster from the army. macarthur and mccrhystal chose to retire.
    anyway i’m happy to see we agree on everything else.

    in 1951 i found a book “the iron curtain of america” authored by john beatty, in fact you can google it and bring it up. someone had thrown a box of books away and it was amongst them. this book is well written and covers the russian revolution and continues up to the fifties and also well documented. it is a little boring at the start, but it covers the jewish emigration into the balkans and their political involvement in the russian revolution and later in germany. should be a must read for schools.
    like i said, ike got my vote twice. it was later that i learned of the inhumane treatment of the german prisoners. this information was never made public until years later. we were no better than the russian communist. you might be interested in looking up the russian “general vlaso”, this was a travesty.
    you can google this.
    the information on wiki is incorrect as usual with some of the history pertaining to anything anti-communist. patton went to ike in order to help vlasov, to keep him from being returned to russia and ike refused to intercede, later he was turned over to the russians by treachery and consequently hanged as a traitor.

    the missile shot in so calif, is curious it seems no one was really interested in getting to the bottom of it, do you think china would be that brazen? and if they did, we should all thank bill clinton for allowing china the opportunity to purchase the missile guidance system from the u.s. he greatly endangered the security of the u.s.

  • Tom Anderson

    Again, I think I agree with you. Ike spent considerable effort defending his “accomodation” with the Russian commies. McCarthy accused Ike of being soft on commies – and giving Eastern Europe away.

    And I think it is correct. Ike got along well with many of the Russian generals and Ike felt that the Russians had EARNED their right at the table (Yalta). You know that the USA had a cake walk compared to Russia during WW2. But, officially, FDR gave everything to the commies and FDR was NOT in any mood to take on Uncle Joe in a war in Europe. I think Ike agreed – he was NOT going to risk war with Uncle Joe. I think THAT is realism. Ike would NOT countermand his boss, FDR.

    Patton’s idea of starting a war with Russia was lunacy – there was no appetite for THAT by the war-weary US public. Napoleon and Hitler had considerable sad experience in invading Russia – if THEY couldn’t do it effectively, I doubt that Patton could do it either. Russian mud and winter was stronger than even Patton.

    Chinese that brazen? Without question – remember that the Chinese believe that their Empire is the center of the Universe – always HAS been too. And the Chinese military is feeling their oats. The Com. Party is VERY scared to try to rein in the military – any party member does THAT at his peril. Doesn’t the Bible say something about an army of 2 million invading Israel from the east – China?

    I have suspected that the REAL reason we are in Afghan is because we have a secret agreement to fight the Muslims there on behalf of the Chinese. Those Taliban Muslims ARE truly a threat to the Chinese – NOT to us at all. Why do the Chinese keep buying our worthless US treasuries? The Chinese are paying for our military in Afghan NOT the US taxpayer. Our military has, essentially, become modern mercenary-whores to Israel and China. We HAVE to fight there or China will “pull the plug” on our treasuries and flood the US with mountains of worthless US Dollars.

    Biggest worry is that the chin. commie party no longer is able to control the military – - a military takeover of the gov. would be our worst nightmare. THAT is what happened in Japan before WW2 and paved the way for Pearl H.

    Perilous Times!

    • http://gunner689 gunner689

      Tom: You’re right about FDR, Truman, and Ike’s fear of the Soviet Union. They were so afraid of them that they left over 50,000 Allied prisoners rot in their Gulags after the war. These were soldiers captured by the Germans and held in POW Camps which Russian troops over ran. Instead of sending them home they kept them; 50,000 men, many Americans. Our gvt didn’t force the issue so Stalin just kept them. Patton was right; we should have kicked the Soviets back to Russia while we had our troops there. Ever since, in every conflict, we don’t get all our prisoners home. Thousands were written off in both Korea and Viet Nam.

  • chuckb

    tom. the only reason russia survived the german invasion was our supplying them the with planes,tanks, ammo and fuel otherwise they were goners. the only reason the germans failed is the fact we cut off their fuel supply and their armies advanced too fast. without us russia was doomed. thousands of russians joined the german armies as they advanced into russia, that’s where the history of general vlasov comes in. lot of the russia people were trying to get away from the communist gov. of stalin and were sympathetic with the germans. actually stalin was worse than hitler, he killed more innocent people by far than hitler, the only difference hitler went after the communist jews. this is a very interesting part of history, did hitler go after only the communist jews or all jews? i know he allowed some to leave germnany, (i had the fortune to meet some of these people). sometimes i wonder if communism hadn’t reared it’s ugly head would hitler have any reason to invade russia? would he have only taken back the original land the allies took away from germany “the treaty of versailles, 1919″, he offered to stop when he retook the original land of germany, england and france refused. many people have painted hitler as being crazy, if you look what he built in germany, the infrastructure, the army their scientific advances, they were ahead of any nation on earth, no crazy person did all that, his hatred of the communist jews did him in.

    patton was an old army general, he was egotistical and army thru and thru. he saw the german soldier as one of the best in the world and they were. he was very anti-communist and i believe if he was given the green light with the german soldiers and his 3rd army they would have gone all the way to moscow. the communist in our government were not going to have any part of that.

    it’s too bad history has been revised to suit the liberal mind, i notice on wikipedia, they don’t lie so much as they leave very important info out. they are a very liberal site as well as snopes.

    i never looked at the idea of us protecting china from the taliban. somewhere down the line we will probably come into conflict with the chinese, in fact we are going to have conflict with many countries if we don’t keep our nose out of their business.
    our biggest threat is the muslim movement in this country,and securing the border.

    • Tom Anderson

      Chuck – I agree with all you state in your 1st para.

      FDR gave E. Europe to Uncle Joe – FDR was NOT going to allow anyone (especially Patton) disrupt his agreement. And Ike followed FDR’s orders (and, possibly, supported them). Everyone was tired of warring except Patton.

      Yes, WIKI and SNOPES are very left oriented – but I understand that ANYONE (even republicans) can contribute to WIKI. But FOX is equally biased to the right – NEVER bringing up the disarming of our US flight crews prior to 9/11 and the “stand-down” orders to NORAD.

      With all this agreement, I have to disagree with muslim movement. FBI picked up a Saudi student here in TX today – making bombs for Bush’s house. The problem is NOT the muslims it is OUR OWN GUVMINT which INVITES these guys (and ALL of the 9/11 murderers) into our country.

      The problem with the Muslim officer here in Ft. Hood – BIG problem with Army – the problem was NOT the officer. The Army nearly INVITED that crackpot to massacre them all. Who (I repeat WHO?) ordered all of the soldiers to be disarmed on the base?? The person who issued those orders was NOT muslim I assure you. The person (or party) who allowed all of the 9/11 terrorists into the USA was NOT muslim. The person who ordered the disarming of all of our pilots was NOT muslim. Do you get my point?

      I suspect that blackwidows and brown recluses and snakes have killed more americans than muslims have. The problem, in my opinion, is that BOTH of our parties are doing ALL that they can to “stir the pot”. Why in the hell are we allowing a SINGLE Saudi student into the USA??? Who is really evil? The saudi student or the american who invited him into our homeland?

      A few years ago I attended a security meeting at Ft. Bliss related to the many tunnels crossing into TX from Mx. Reps from FBI, Customs, INS, Army, Corp of Engineers were in attendance – BUT NO TX STATE officials. The reason? Because the FEDS know that there are drugs, money and guns coming thru those tunnels but they don’t notify the State of TX because the state would shut them down. The FEDS are monitoring those tunnels to see if any nukes or WMDs come thru those tunnels. It is an interesting “game” between the Fed Guv and TX. Those tunnels are getting deeper and longer every year. The guvmint has been VERY effective at keeping all this info from the media.

      In other words – YES, secure the border. You heard about those 5-6 nuclear warheads that “got mixed up and shipped out”? Talk about “false flag” – - – I am sure that you know that the NAZI’s had a VERY GOOD reason for attackikng Poland in 1939 – a VERY well executed False Flag operation that the NAZI’s had been preparing. The GERMANS thought that there were simply defending themselves against Polish agression. Our CIA must have taken lessons from the same NAZI book.

      • http://gunner689 gunner689

        Except for MPs, rifle range personel, and people on guard duty no one is armed on a military base. All the weapons and ammo are locked up in armories. As you know military bases are like towns with their own schools, office blds., shopping areas, and even banks. The problem with the rag doctor was Political Correctness wouldn’t allow anyone to do anything about him before the incident. PC is a disease that has infested all areas of society and needs to be eradicated.

  • http://comcast robert e strout

    i am a viet-nam combat marine veteran, and i can not agree more with some of the comments made by other people giving their comments about viet-nam. i whole heartedly feel that the news media back then hurt us more than helped us. And, i do not think we got involved because of oil in the tonkin gulf. about the destroyer that was fired upon to get us involved, was a hoax. but, being a purple heart recipient, and a combat marine in viet-nam in 1968, i wish our gov. had let us do our job over there and we would have won Semper Fi Golf Co. 2nd Batt. 7th Marines

  • Recently Awoke

    Gentlemen, patriots, and brothers in arms, please seek your answers (to the reasons for the U.S. being involved in any war) by researching as to who gains from war. Other patriots and JFK tried to warn us of the “elite” who actually fund both sides of any war or conflict. War is amazingly profitable. Please, if you do nothing else, seek out the elites and their goal for total world domination. I know that I may sound whacked, but I just woke up to all of this myself. God bless all those who served and that still serve. Strangely we all thought that we were fighting for our freedom, or a continuation thereof, but in reality we fight for someone else’s “way of life” which does not necessarily include all of us. Look for the “owl” on our dollar bills. This is not a drill, it’s really happening. Here’s a clue: Did we really need to be in Nam, Afgan, and Iraq for a decade? Besides the profits from loaning money to governments to fund wars, there’s loads of money to be made from the resources. Think of the tungsten and why we need it and other raw materials in Nam and I don’t need to mention the raw materials of Afgan and Iraq. I now have concern for my grandchildren.

  • Robert Vann Wilson

    since the vietnam war was a lie why can’t the 100% disabled vet sue the gov for damages, iwas with the 1stbn 9th marines delta co jan68-69+ the gov bailed out the fatcats with trillions the combat vet did the dieing/bleeding/ suffering for life congress /fatcats didn’t the vet deserves the same salary/benifits as congress they earned it

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