Did The IRS Kill Obamacare?

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Article I, Section 8 of the U.S. Constitution ascribes to Congress the sole “Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises” on the American people. Somebody at the Internal Revenue Service didn’t get the memo.

Under the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act (the deathcare trap we call Obamacare), legislation allows States to choose whether they want to set up State-run health insurance exchanges. Twenty-six States declined, prompting the Federal government to move to set up exchanges in their place.

Under the State exchanges, States are able to fine employers under the employer-mandate penalty. Those fines are then given back to employees in the form of subsidies to purchase healthcare insurance through the State-run exchange.

As the law was written, the employer-mandate penalty did not apply under Federal exchanges. But the IRS, at President Barack Obama’s direction, decided the penalty had to apply to Federal exchanges as well. Oklahoma Attorney General Scott Pruitt filed suit last year challenging the IRS on the rule change.

Essentially, Pruitt believes the employer mandate penalty does not apply under a Federal-run exchange, and the State’s policy decision not to set up an exchange should protect employers from the penalty. Pruitt is alleging that the IRS is violating the Administrative Procedures Act, which prevents an agency from exercising powers it doesn’t have. He claims the IRS has altered the effect of the law through regulation and implementation.

Last week, a Federal judge in Oklahoma ruled that the State had the legal standing to sue the Federal government over the employer mandate. The case will now make its way to the U.S. Supreme Court, where it should be struck down as unConstitutional.

But if SCOTUS just rules the IRS actions illegal, Obamacare will be left in a bigger pile of debris than it currently is. Without the penalties on employers, the exchanges will be bereft of money.

Hat tip: Benswann.com

Bob Livingston

founder of Personal Liberty Digest™, is an ultra-conservative American author and editor of The Bob Livingston Letter™, in circulation since 1969. Bob has devoted much of his life to research and the quest for truth on a variety of subjects. Bob specializes in health issues such as nutritional supplements and alternatives to drugs, as well as issues of privacy (both personal and financial), asset protection and the preservation of freedom.

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  • Motov

    I don’t care how it gets killed,.. just as long as it does get killed.

    • smilee

      Forget it, it won’t and once it is entrenched they will work on improving it.

      • TheOriginalDaveH

        Yeah sure, Sleepee, we’ve heard that one before — http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hV-05TLiiLU

        • smilee

          Time will prove you wrong davie!!!

      • Motov

        “New and improved” Now we rob more money from you, give you even more red tape to plow through, and excel in customer neglect and abuse. Ain’t that just peachy keen?

        • Deerinwater

          well ` maybe ~ in some ways perhaps ~ but the advancement of processing , handling and storing information has moved along at such a rapid pace it has any current system that is 10 years old ~ well outdated today.

          I think that most all of us would rather eat a big ole can of worms rather then upgrade. ~ but at some point, to NOT upgrade we find ourselves attempting to run a footrace in mud.

          There was several years in our history where the term “New & Improved” really didn’t mean very much, ~ just a Sales Pitch” to get us to buy. ~ Maybe the packaging was new, or a new scent or color. ~

          But as a Contractor and business owner of 35 years, ~ Today’s products ~ are indeed new and improved in quality and value over products of just 5 years hence.

          They do more with much with less, quieter, faster and longer while in many cases actually initially costing less if you factor in the devaluation of the dollar.

          How have you enjoyed Mr. Livingston recent upgrade ? ~ Myself , I’m really found it to be great on many levels and it’s brought in new blood and greater appeal to the site.

          You know, ~ he didn’t have to upgrade but it was a decision that he made.

          i suspect Mr. Livingston came to the conclusion that he was like the Exxon Valdez, ` he was not sinking, ~ but he wasn’t making good headway.

          • Motov

            Doesn’t explain why things get worse when the Government handles anything,…..

          • Deerinwater

            Well Motov, I understand your quandary .Any hope for any meaningful “explanation” would require “Framing” your quandary and correct “language”.

            While your statement is heard often, “Doesn’t explain why things get worse when the Government handles anything,’ it not a completely true claim but has been only accepted as true.

            The same claim could be levy at doctor’s that treat the ill and dying, while people still suffer and die,

            43’s administration was faulted for government failing to act while at the same time offered credit for what “didn’t happen”, there was not other 9-11 attack on American soil due to the actions of government.

            In one months time Rick Perry the governor of Texas was talking up succession from the Federal Government and weeks later blasting the CDC for failing to supply more swine flu vaccine as the outbreak reached proportion too large to ignore and discount by a leading statesman.

            While we might all want to have e things ~ both ways ~ it is not possible for the Federal government to stay in it’s own little box until it’s need and only then be there for the rescue.

            It’s an “Is you is or is you ain’t my baby?” thang.

            I would like to supply each of my children with a nice car and a opportunity at a quality education. But ~ until I see they can take charge of the responsibilities they presently have, as a Father and controller, my sympathetic nature is to be “appealed too” ~ show me.

            The Fed has spent the money in Louisiana addressing their need for levies. Louisiana is right so , seen as a key state of our Union and it’s contribution to our commercial well being cannot be under estimated. ~

            What these local states men and these contractors ~ did with this money has never been fully disclosed ` and won’t be. ~ I’m pretty sure. ~ But blaming the Federal government is the easiest thing to do and what will be done.

            If the Fed had when into Louisiana and done the necessary work themselves ~ can you imagine the howling we would have heard at the local level????

          • Motov

            9-11 was an inside job (I’ll catch hell for this statement)
            Not only did our government know about it I think they perpetrated it. They made way too many mistakes, No 757 wreckage around the Pentagon, Building #7 at the WTC destroyed demolition style, Witnesses claiming military grey painted planes hitting the WTC, Too obvious, AA livery and UAL livery very hard to not miss.
            How does reinforced concrete get pulverized from falling? And both buildings fell as if professionally demolished. And the so-called Patriot Act was signed into law just a few days later, so people won’t complain about their 4th amendment right being trampled.
            (I bet that opened up a can of worms)

          • Deerinwater

            Hmm? ~ the ramification , the fault, the praise and the following >power grab< I too , believe was orchestrated and falls into the category of the "Grassy Knoll" and the "Sinking of the Maine". ~ How it happened and who had a hands-on part in these events, are for speculation, while those actually responsible are somewhere counting their money and wielding power and influence over what we see still happening today. ~

            This old idea of "storming the castle gates" and laying waste to everyone inside will not reach them, ~ for they are somewhere else, scattered about the world community in enclaves of protected opulence.

            An informed and motivated voter is their single greatest threat. And as some many seemed most willing to be used by "talking heads", spreading mistrust, hate and disinformation , I do not feel these "powers" feel threatened at all.

            After a hundred lies have been told and retold, a death bed confession has little credence.

            so who is the enemy? ~ I tend to believe that we have allowed them to turn our ourselves into the enemy. If you believe for one minute ~ this progressive and conservative fight has anything to do with money being spent. ~ or the national debit. That is but a distraction for entertainment value and the playing field from which our enemies draft their staffing needs to carry out their bidding.

          • June Maulfair

            The planes hitting the WTC have been shown over and over–my boss & I were watching when the 2nd plane hit–there were no military planes hitting the buildings.

    • Bill

      Motov,
      Kill the beast before it kills us

      • Motov

        Oh don’t I wish,….

  • mark

    “the deathcare trap we call Obamacare.” Another of the endless appeals to ridicule on this site.

    • http://personalliberty.com/ Bob Livingston

      Dear mark,

      Conventional medicine is not wellness care, it is sickness care. Sickness leads to death. Obamacare is designed to trap Americans into a sickness care system. Therefore, Obamacare is a deathcare system. Alternative avenues of healthcare are not covered under Obamacare and the FDA and USDA are actively working to deny Americans access to alternative healthcare options.

      Best wishes,
      Bob

      • smilee

        We have been trapped into sickness care as you call it for about 50 years it is not new with Obamacare. Life leads to death, everyone’s, with or without wellness care but wellness method is preferred route.

      • Deerinwater

        It was my understanding, that there were previsions in the reform act that does address many of the concerns you raise Mr. Livingston. Maybe they have not being “highlighted” well?

        • http://personalliberty.com/ Bob Livingston

          Dear Deerinwater,

          You write: “It was my understanding, that there were previsions in the reform act that does address many of the concerns you raise.” If that is the case I would love for you to point me to them and I will “highlight” them.

          Best wishes,
          Bob

  • Deerinwater

    Well at least it’s a matter being discussed and that’s a good thing.

    An Employer based National Health Care is nonsense anyway. Maybe someday everyone will wake up and smell the coffee.

    When did the need for providing human health care have anything to do with employment?

    Employment ~ is only where the money can be located.

    So are we addressing providing heath care or providing money?

    This tying our donkey to the back of our cart and not understanding why we can’t control our cart is getting beyond absurd,

    • Warrior

      Darwin, have you ever heard of “medicaid”? You did however get it right in your last sentence………..”CONTROL”. Ya see, Darwin, the “big blue” states that enjoy an enormous advantage in “electoral votes” have a “little” problem paying for their “medicaid” program. Darwin, why do you think that is?

      • smilee

        The federal government used to pay for all oof it and thenit was not a problem for any state and then they went to block grants and only paid part of it and the states have to make up the rest of it and they administered it and make the rules in their own states. You now have fifty different medicaid plans instead of one and it does not work very well.

        • TheOriginalDaveH

          Where in the Constitution was the Federal Government given the Power to legislate Healthcare, Sleepee?
          http://www.cato.org/pubs/constitution/constitution_en.html

          • smilee

            Exactly where Robert’s said it was, Art. !, Sec 8. Clause 1. You would not be so in the dark if you read his opinion.

          • TheOriginalDaveH

            For those who are still wearing the Propaganda Blinders that Sleepee convinced you were fashionable:
            http://www.constitution.org/fed/federa41.htm

          • smilee

            Davie does not know the difference between the Constitution and the federalist papers. (his reference is to the federalist papers) The Constitution is the supreme law of the land and the federalist papers were the written sales pitch to sell the Constitution to he colonies for its ratification. They are valuable but do not supersede the the Constitution which is the supreme law and is binding unlike the federalist papers. Davies does not know the difference but he does not like the Constitution so he does this to try and confuse you or he is actually that ignorant.

          • TheOriginalDaveH

            Sleepee does not know that the Federalist #41 was written by the Father of the US Constitution — James Madison.
            Nobody knows better than Madison about what the Constitution was intended to mean.
            Sleepee has no credibility.

          • smilee

            I most certainly do know that but that has no effect on my post you addressed. Madison’s opinion did not count, Robert’s does that is the law davie. Your statement changes nothing only that you prefer Madison’s statement over the actual written law and Robert’s opinion was based on a clause in the original part of the Constitution of which Madison had a part in writing too. You cannot have credibility davie if you are going to continue to try and fool these good people.

          • vicki

            Since the actual written law is unconstitutional, Robert’s opinion is irrelevant.

          • smilee

            Believe any lie you wish, that is your privilege, Obamacare is here to stay only because Robert’s words were relevant. It really is the height of arrogance to say you are smarter than the SC chief Justice. If you think so you should at least show your credentials to support it. I’m betting you have none!

          • Deerinwater

            well, it’s for you to prove Vicky. simply stating one’s convictions is a far cry from proving.

            If it’s as you say, ~ someone brighter then us both would have proved it so. ~ That no one has yet to come forward and do so, perhaps you can explain?

          • TheOriginalDaveH

            To the contrary, Sleepee — James Madison’s opinion is much more valuable than Justice Roberts or the other four members of the Federal Judicial Gang who misinterpreted the Constitution. Your opinion, Sleepee, has no value at all.

          • TheOriginalDaveH

            To the contrary, Sleepee — James Madison’s opinion is much more valuable than Justice Roberts or the other four members of the Federal Judicial Gang who misinterpreted the Constitution. Your opinion, Sleepee, has no value at all.

          • smilee

            Well, you get more stupid every day, Madison was never a court justice on the SC so none of his opinions held any legal weight. Chief Justice Roberts opinions become the law when he is in the majority opinion and some weight when he was in the minority opinion , Madison’s did not carry an legal weight only an occasional reference.. Believe what you like but it sure illuminates your ignorance which carries no weight at all.

          • TheOriginalDaveH

            That gives Madison more weight, not less. He was there, and he had no bias in favor of Big Federal Government.
            And he took the minutes at the Constitutional Convention. Nobody knows better than Madison what the intent of the Constitution was.
            Certainly not a biased, dishonest Liberal Progressive such as yourself, Sleepee.

            http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QuYBqkTs3RQ

          • Smilee

            Then why did Madison go along with what was written in the Constitution as it says nothing about the size of government only what it can do and/or not do and size was not one of them especially after the civil war Obamacare is not small and he went along with Congress having the power to tax and pay for the general welfare. Robert’s said it did and general covers big things. He may have preferred it being written different but he went along with something very different than what you say. I’m sure he knew that general could cover big ground and it has all through out history. Buying the Louisiana purchase was huge and then giving it away largely to immigrant was probably the largest welfare we have ever known. Two homestead acts signed by Monroe and Lincoln followed to accomplish that. I Inherited my grandfather’s homestead and half my great grandmother’s homestead which they got free except for filing fees and today it is worth over 1.2 million. This is only one of many big things our government has done. Madison knew that too. I do not buy your BS.

          • smilee

            On the last day of the convention they all burned their notes

      • Deerinwater

        More people , more electoral votes , more people to serve. ~ but there should be more revenues with “more people paying taxes”

        ~ You do bring forward a good point of contention and worth investigating Warrior. ~ i’m not going to accept your claim at face value ~ but I certainly will investigate the charge.

        I’m beat, ~it was a monster of a day. I will pick it back up where we left off ` another time Warrior

    • Jim B.

      Free market spurred on work place health care as a benefit, a competitive market place benefit to attract and retain workers and it was working just fine until the government got involved and destroyed it for everyone including those who did not have it i.e. competition.

      • smilee

        How did the government get involved in employer health care??

    • dontdoitagain

      Just so you know, part of the reason the government wants health care UNTIED from employment is taxes. What did YOU think was the reason they don’t want your employer to supply health care. That money IS NOT TAXED! If YOU the employee have to pay for the insurance out of your own pocket then it will be paid for with AFTER TAX money. This was a way for employers to attract good employees, but now that will be gone. Thanks a lot all you people who think this is about “affordable” care. Single purchasers don’t get the group rate that our employers can get for us.

      • smilee

        The employee share is mostly before tax dollars now and has been for quite a few years it originally was after tax dollars. With the exchanges putting the individual into a group premiums should go down for them.

        • aint-gonna-take-it

          HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHA!
          smile, now I know you are funny AND stupid. Yes, I read all the posts above. You’ve been suckered right down the rabbit hole… 100%. So stop asking us to follow suit… some of us don’t want to live in the land of bama-dilusion.

          • smilee

            The only success you have had is showing us how ignorant and stupid you really are. Live where you like does not matter to me but unless you leave the country you will living in Obama land until Jan 2017.

          • Deerinwater

            Yea, ~ we know ~ You are not being asked to do anything but be a good American ~ and honor your responsibilities which is asked of all American. ~ No more ~ and not an ounce less.

      • Deerinwater

        “Thanks a lot all you people who think this is about “affordable” care. Single purchasers don’t get the group rate that our employers can get for us.”

        So you do enjoy the power of the “Collective” when it works in your personal favor? ~But that is Socialism ~ya know?

    • TheOriginalDaveH

      Why do you think, Deer, that you have a right to ride on other peoples’ unwilling shoulders, no matter how much misfortune you suffer?
      You would have made an excellent Plantation Owner 300 years ago.

      • Deerinwater

        Again ~ why make it so personal David ? ~ You want to fight me? hurt me, kill me? ~ for bothering to comment on a topic that clearly seem to be of some interest?

        You need to chill out David. ~ I am not offended in anyway by your hostile nature , but I do wish to correct your false premise. ~ If not for you, ~then the “board” , ~ as you are way out of line.

        Many American were indeed getting free health care ~ under the prior system. ~ Both my and your tax dollars was being used to subsidize the insurance premiums of well employed Americans. Employers that seen fit to take full advantage of Government offered programs that were then incorporated into employee benefit packages as enticements in their efforts of staffing in a competitive labor force.

        I don’t ever remember hearing anyone complaining about this disparity, ~ while clearly it has been occurring for many decades. The underemployed and underpaid Americans have been helping pay the Insurance premiums of well employees Americans for many years. ~ this has been taking place so long, ~ it’s now taken for granted and expected ~ as an entitlement, feeling it “earned” while it was legislation that offered it and little to do with being “Earned”.

        But NOW that, ~ we have a system mandating that American’s regardless of their employer or employment are being required to pony up for their health care~ Only now do we hear of some disparity.

        I am required to pay for my heath care David, ~ I was sorta hoping maybe you and your friends would not mind paying for your own , like I’ve done the last 30 years.

        I did have a wife that worked for the Sheriff’s Office once. ~ myself and 3 children did enjoy Blue Cross coverage for several years . ~ It was nice, ~ and well worth the extra 450.00 dollars each month to cover the entire family. ~ I remember feeling very grateful for the peace of mind at the time.

        • TheOriginalDaveH

          Deer says — “Again ~ why make it so personal David ? ~ You want to fight me? hurt me, kill me? ~ for bothering to comment on a topic that clearly seem to be of some interest?”.
          You are clearly not of sound mind, Deer. I wouldn’t want to be anywhere around you.

          • Deerinwater

            well attempt to support your comments with something besides your self-serving opinions, David H.

            For you ~ a person that believes everyone should be left to do as they please predicates on some believe of self sustaining ,self righteousness while denying the All Mighty or his teachings in the same breath , leaves a a lot to be desired as an example of a sound mind.

            as I have offered before, ` you are a text book example for the need of good fences, good laws and enforcement as your ego knows no boundaries and is superseded only by your ignorance to the very nature of man.

            You are only an enigma in your own mind, David H. The rest of us knows your ways and find it necessary to keep you in constant check and naturalized .

            attempt to find comfort in the fact you are not being ignored but rather soundly rejected by people of sound mind and it is there you forever shall stay.

            the only way you might escape this entrapment of your own device is to become a much better liar , something along the caliber of Glenn Beck, while even he is entrapped in his lies and deceit and been cast aside as a novelty of little consequence but for the few that still hear his ludicrous self serving music.

    • billybob

      To me it is a way for the government to shift the burden on to the general public. That way the government has the extra resources to provide health care. So we all pay new taxes to provide a programs for those who don’t have the ability to pay. Those who have existing health programs will get it in the rear when it become uneconomical for the insurance carrier, so they will fall aside. In the end big government will prevail and that is when they will have total and complete control of you and your life. In the mean time the government gets to keep all of the other moneys to send off to some dictator in some foreign land. I always remember the song about the poor. It goes something like this “Wall street fell, but we were so poor we couldn’t tell” How much more of our money does this government plan to steal from us? How much longer will we the people allow it?

      • Deerinwater

        “To
        me it is a way for the government to shift the burden on to the general public”

        Well? ~ for whom is it to serve? ~ it would seem to me, their burden to carry.

        i feel inclined to consider myself a small part of the “general public” and there-fore my burden.

    • June Maulfair

      It was originally an incentive for employers to attract & keep the best employees -

  • peter

    Maybe the IRS has not killed obamacare, but sure as hell obamacare will kill a lot of folks. That would fall into the ‘ collateral damage drawer ‘ of his highness of course, so it is of no relevance whatsoever. Just so long as him and his buddies get rich, everything is just fine.

    • Deerinwater

      People in need of health care ~ tend to do that one way or another regardless how health care is being funded.

      This attempt to reign in Tax dollars spending for the uninsured ~ by requiring everyone to make a modest effort to pay is meeting the heaviest resistance among those that resent Federal spending the most.

      • Don 2

        I have never understood why it is “greed” to want to keep the money you’ve earned, but not greed to want to take somebody else’s money ~ Thomas Sowell

        • vicki

          greed to want and theft to do (presumes lack of consent from whom you take :)

      • billybob

        My wife worked in a hospital for over 40 years. She has seen first hand how those with no insurance get all of the medical care they need for free. Hospitals by law can not refuse anyone. It doesn’t materr if they have insurance or not. At the end of the day the hospitals write it off as a charity. So why has it come to this. The entire country must suffer for a few. Some one said it would have been cheaper to just set aside a few billion dollars to pay for those who have no insurance. We give each year, $4 billion dollars to Afganastan, $2billion to Egypt, and $7 billion to Pakastan. But some how we can’t seem to find enough money in our coffers to help our own. This government is a disgusting piece of crap. The next time one of these blowhards politicians comes to where you can ask them a question, ask them the question. Why can you find money here for those who have no insurance? In the end if they can’t afford it the government pays for it any way. Durning the last two years I have had an education on this government and its deceptions. It is very understandable why most people haven’t a clue on what goes on behind our back in Washington DC. It is like there are parallel worlds that never meet.

        • TheOriginalDaveH

          It’s all about Power and buying votes, billybob. The Politicians could care less about our welfare.

          • smilee

            The insurance companies up until now have had 30-50% in overhead and profits and the pharm companies as much and many big hospitals and clinics show high profits as well. Under Obamacare the insurance companies will limited to 20% and any excess charged will be refunded once a year. So they are restricted by law to have higher profits as you claim as that cannot happen. Their overhead will also go down as they know longer have to spend time and big money proving that you have a preexisting conditions etc. Bankruptcies on unpaid health care costs will now be collected by the providers giving them additional income they previously were absorbing as costs . 70% of bankruptcies are medical costs. You see those on here ignore the savings and focus only on the costs after they have inflated them them above their actual costs. CBO says there will be a net saving, Health care is still going to be from private insurance companies and competition will be greater as they will be competing for 30 million new clients..Obamacare is not in the insurance business only insurance regulation as the commerce clause clearly allows. You address what you want the facts to be not on the real facts themselves thus you are led astray.

          • TheOriginalDaveH

            Any evidence, Sleepee, to back up your conjecture?
            Here’s some reality to replace those hopes and dreams:
            http://www.cato.org/sites/cato.org/files/pubs/pdf/pa-613.pdf

            Sleepee says — “CBO says there will be a net saving”.
            Yeah sure, a Federal Agency giving us the true scoop.

            More reality:
            http://mises.org/daily/2424

          • smilee

            Your free to believe anything you like even if it is all lies. I could back it up but will not spend the time when it is readily available to you if you do a little research yourself. Feel free to try and prove me wrong. I stand by my post.

          • macgyver1948

            TheOriginalDaveH…
            Taking your words in this comment of yours literally and just as it
            is presented you are so right. Amazing how we can
            agree at times.

          • Deerinwater

            Well, ~ appeal can’t be under valued.

          • Deerinwater

            i guess it all depends on what “It’s” is .

            I think political power is a strong motive for many activities.

            As for buying votes, ~ There are a few inside the GOP that can actually count ~ and have concluded rightfully so, that they can’t but enough votes to sell their package.

            So ~not being completely stupid, this leaves them to restrict the vote and this is what they have attempted to do in every state they have the power and the opportunity has presented itself.

            Immigration reform will go no where, it will be stalled by the GOP. `as they see a new immigrant as a DNC voter.

            The GOP , with their proxy “The Tea party” has attempted to defund the DNC by constant pressure and attacking Organized Labor. ~ just another way to restrict the DNC vote.

            That the GOP has lost it appeal by refusal to change their package has created a problem and disenfranchised many American’s that would claim to be Conservatives and would vote conservative if given the opportunity.

            The GOP is a Hyjacked party today, with hyjackers hiding among hyjackers,

        • smilee

          Hospitals are required to give free emergency care but no more than that and the uninsured cannot get care elsewhere unless they can pay their own way of which few can today. This is the result of high profits which today is the priority item in health care not health care itself and has been that way since people could no longer afford to pay as you go without insurance. Greed is the name of the game. Obamacare puts the brakes on some of this but does not cure it, but is a good first step as the Mayo Clinic stated just before it was voted into law.

          • vicki

            Smilee writes:

            This is the result of high profits which today is the priority item in health care not health care itself

            High profits from being able to charge more cause the patient doesn’t pay. All the people in the insurance plan with the patient pays. Obamacare, with its requirement that EVERYONE who breaths pays will indeed create even higher profits.

            At least with the older system the individual insurance companies would resist paying to much. Obamacare has no such motive

            Also, in the private insurance method, competition between insurance companies would help keep the cost of insurance down. Again obamacare has no such incentive.

          • Deerinwater

            “Also, in the private insurance method, competition between insurance companies would help keep the cost of insurance down.”

            Then explain a 300% increase in just 20 years Vicky.

            “At least with the older system the individual insurance companies would resist paying to much.”

            the old system most often resisted paying anything at all, ~ which required providers to inflate their prices Vicky.

            “Obamacare has no such motive” ` i would be willing to debate the intent with you. ~ motives are another animal, ~ some would say they are one and the same.

        • Deerinwater

          all you say ~ is true billybob. but it’s not free, we tax payers must pony up for the funding. ~

          i watch them (doctor’s and the hospital) milk my father’s insurance for all it was worth as well. ~ When they do get a paying patient ` they milk it dry ~ where my father would have been best off allowed to die 10 years sooner than he did. ~ The quality of those last 10 years was poor and full of suffering.

      • vicki

        Requiring the unwilling to pay for your pet cause is called theft. That you use government force instead of walking up and robbing them your self does not change the act.

        • Deerinwater

          Why make this issue appear so “Personal” Vicki ? I don’t really give a “Flying Flock” ~ until I have to spent 6 hours being admitted into the ER as it has became the “catch all” for medical treatment in one of the most wealthiest nations on the planet.

          (“Requiring the unwilling to pay for “YOUR pet cause” is called theft.”) ?????

          Whether it be the “unwilling or the unable” or whether it’s “theft” or “charity” , the end results is much the same Vicky.

          Peoples’ medical needs being address ~ in some fashion while nobody wants to pay their own freight and they certainly don’t want to pay anyone else’s.

          My Federal and Local tax dollars have been subsidizing someone’s heath care for years, while I’m been fortunate enough ` to pay out of pocket.

          I don’t really mind it that much ~ and it’s certainly not a pet peeve.

          Health Care and Immigration needed serious address in order for Middle Class American’s, to recover from a 30 year bleed in the America’s middle class earnings and discretionary spending practices that been in a serious tail spin since Reagan’s administration.

          • TheOriginalDaveH

            From each according to their abilities, to each according to their needs, ehh Deer?
            That worked so well for USSR, China, Cuba, and North Korea.

          • Deerinwater

            ~ I say, a 300% increase in health care insurance premiums over a 20 year period has priced millions of American out of the market completely and needs address and cannot be allowed to continue.

            these are my words David ~ where you found your words ~ to frame the debate are for only you to account for.

          • TheOriginalDaveH

            From each according to their abilities, to each according to their needs, ehh Deer?
            That worked so well for USSR, China, Cuba, and North Korea.

        • macgyver1948

          Vicki… Just a reminder in case you do not remember. President Ronald Reagan, the ol’ Gipper, suggested to us the need for National Health Care. Why do you suppose he did that? How do you suppose The Gipper would have suggested to fund it? Just asking for some thought on that funding thing, nothing more.

          There is no doubt items in ObamaCare, such as the Mandate, are hurtful things for so many people but we should remember the Mandate was originally a GOP idea and they included it in their failed attempt at
          National Health care in the early 1990s. It was the GOP who insisted the mandate be included in ObamaCare, and some other GOP things (yeah
          I remember when this was going on and no one had to tell us about it, we just listened to the GOP and Obama’s responses to them), or they would make sure ObamaCare would fail when it was presented to Congress if the GOP stuffs weren’t included. Obama said more than once to us he didn’t want it in there. Go figure why the GOP doesn’t like it since it was passed. I bet it is not that hard to figure why the GOP does not like it since passing it if we really pay attention and not just listen to the words coming out of Congress. It really is their actions and not just their words that defines them. Just saying.

          By the way, Governor Romney of Massachusetts included many things in his state-wide Health Care for Massachusetts and his thing included “THE
          Dreaded Mandate”. I have since spoken with many Massachusetts people and his health care plan was one of several reasons they hated him as Governor. He lost nicely in the Massachusetts race when he ran
          for President. I think he lost his own state because the majority of voters there really knew him and his work. Says a lot for the Mandate and its real supporters and creators. Wouldn’t you say that is Right?

          Hi Deerinwater, hows it going?

          • Deerinwater

            great mcGyver, ~ ready for this summer to close out ~ and slip back into semi-retirement , get back to my music and offering worth opposition to people that only approve of our election process if they are pleased with the results and believe they might have won.

            It’s funny how they typecast any opposition exactly like the talking heads that vomit their poison on TV. ~

            I guess they all want to be TV STAR’s ~

            i’m so glad that I gave up TV. it’s gotten totally ridiculous.

            Media outlets have turned political discourse into Pro wrestling where the viewers seem to believe they too can become proficient in the fine art of debate by simple watching enough of it.

            “Watch this reverse cradle and shoulder pin.” `!

            They come at you with the same old crap ~ time and time again. ~ In their mind, ~ they have won ~ something?

          • macgyver1948

            Deerinwater…I find it sad that people believe only what their side tells them to believe. Much of the news is there to just sell news and to acquire as much advertising as they can. This is sad, especially since they have to please those advertisers to continue to get their support, because we really do need a free and impartial press to help Democracy work. “Our
            liberty depends on the freedom of the press, and that cannot be limited without being lost.” Thomas Jefferson. I have to add it also depends on the honorability and truthfulness of it too.

            I stay away from Fox network when it comes to their news but I do find more reality in Fox shows such as the music talent shows than I do in their news. Also I wouldn’t trust Rupport Murdoch if my life depended
            on it.

            You say “It’s funny how they typecast any opposition exactly like the talking heads that vomit their poison on TV. ~

            I guess they all want to be TV STAR’s ~”.

            First, yes, it is funny, and they do and it happens all the time with people who refuse to take being disagreed with. I wonder why they are so insecure that they go to such lengths to show their discontent
            with those who do not agree with them in many childish ways. Isn’t it time to grow up?

            Next, with what you say, you remind me of Jessie “the Body” Ventura. He knows show biz from making movies and acting in the then WWF, now ”E”, and he was the Governor of Minn so he knows both arenas.
            Whatever we think of him as a person he did say something that makes perfect sense. I am paraphrasing because I am going by memory.
            “Politicians are like WWF wrestlers in that they in front of the cameras are acting and behind the scenes they play themselves”. In playing themselves the politicians do what the big money and pledges dictate they do, that is, if they want to continue to receive the big
            money and support, and they do it at our expense.

            The founders warned us about the dangers of big corporate money and the influence it would have on politicians with price tags on their backs. There are so many in Congress with price tags and I wonder why
            the legitimate news people aren’t doing more stories on that since the pledges so many in Congress have signed and the big money is killing our Democracy. I suppose the news people on Fox and article
            writers on sites like this do not want to focus attention on that. So the act goes on depending on what the big money people dictate. We lose if we do not do something soon about all this. The Plutocracy
            will win as they appear to be with great help of their friends, the ones in Congress they own, and the slanted press.

            We need the press to do what is was intended to do, find out and report what is really going on to help us to keep Democracy working correctly. We need to make the politicians more fearful of us at the polls for their seats than they are of the big money people and the
            pledges.

            Deer, the beat goes on. Enjoy your music and the ending of the summer.

          • Deerinwater

            Well, when I was watching Television, ~ I did make a point to view Foxed news. ~ as I wanted to listen to both sides of the issues being address. ~ and then i went about staging my own David Letterman’s “Float , no Float” Show.

            And you bringing forward the character Jessie Ventura, Jessie is a perfect example of this “staged anger” I address, which is fine, if you are an “actor/entertainer” with intentions of staging a show full of riveting heated passion.

            But these political forum discussions should not be digressed as mere entertainment but be an effort to frame the debate on merits with a effort made to find the proper “language” that best reflects these merits as they relate to the true concerns of the people.

            What we see here,(far too often) is little more than a 5 years old child playing games of war with his favorite “action figure doll” ~ he jumps, ~ flings and flies ~ his doll about, ~ ZAP! BOOM! BANG ! ZOOM! ~ In a deep mechanical, child’s voice , ~ “OKAY! PREPARE TO DIE!”

            When I hear grown men playing this same child’s game ~ imitation their ” TV hero” it’s really hard to take them serious !

            i just reread many of the posting here on this thread, ~ it’s actually been one of the more mature threads. Lots of good points have been raised. ~ there has been an effort made to “Frame” the discussion and employ language that can be worked with by everyone. ( with some exclusions by a few of course) David H, the Magnanimous did his standard “drive by attack” ~ Vicky and Warrior made an attempt to reframe the discussion as a “THEFT” following David H’s lead. Clearly, they drink from the same tainted well of discontent and display the same paralyzes. `

            Everyone has their own personal concerns with this reform and how it affect them personally as well as the nation, for it is a major piece of legislation the democrats have pulled off, despite all the money and power special interest could raise to defeat it. ~ Purely from a partisan point of view`, this is a crushing blow for the GOP, they want so much to deny 44 this achievement, that only one other prior president dare even attempt and why they still fight on. While it will be their parties undoing later yet down the road as they will never openly surrender, they can not, ~ not now. ~ leaving them left with but one single option ~ to hang it as a failure around the DNC neck to wear. ~ every he-cup, every problem, every dark story of human misery will be blamed on “Obamacare” hence on.

            We shall see how well that strategy works for them with time. But for now I would call it just more of Mitch McConnell ‘s limited and twisted views of success and failure as he attempt to use only words to turn failure into success, and success into failure.

            All those who seen no need for any change will be those that forever will oppose it. ~ and why not! ~ They were and had been enjoying entitlement afforded them by prior legislation, why would anyone in their right mind want to ask for a new deck of cards and a new dealer while they were winning?

          • macgyver1948

            Deerinwater…I hope I didn’t give the impression I never listen to or read the other side, whatever that is. I too want to see and hear opposing views to see if I need to adjust a bit. When someone on here “suggests” a Right sided article I go to read it and I do so with
            an open mind. I read Wayne Allen Root and the comic writer here and I start with an open mind when I begin to read what they wrote here.

            You have that right about “stagged anger” or proposed support for a platform. I have loads of trouble believing Cantor in so much of what
            he says because he looks like the phony he is when he speaks. I see it so often in Congress.

            I think all to often they are entraining us for our vote and money support for the elections, much like American Idol or America Has Talent where it can be a popularity contest instead of one for talent
            when it goes for the vote. I think the Republican Presidential debates and the GOP Convention were just that. The Dems convention was better in its believability but they too were boasting for the
            vote. That is politics. I use to joke about the word Politics coming from the Ancient Greek or Roman which means “to fool the people” for a purpose. I said that about lawyers too but that is another
            story. It comes from the ancient word “lier”. It goes for both professions, LOL. Not real things, I made them up from my real observations. My main concern is “who does the elected official and party really represent?”. I just see one party so much more representing “We The People” than the other but I see problems even in party I see as being more on our side.

            I agree with you that political forum
            discussions should have each participant being honest and showing he/she represents us but from a Liberal or real Conservative stance, depending on their true leanings. I see planted scripts and “doing as he or she is told” in their rap. How can we really choose a
            candidate with these kinds of presentations? I would rather hear what the candidate really feels and believes he should do for us rather than what the party tells him or a wishful promising (cannot get out of) pledge that should be outlawed because it borders on
            treason. Yeah, one such pledge has over 270 in Congress hooked to do its total bidding.

            These “playing war games” things are coming back with many American deaths and cripplings. I remember when I was in the Air Force, supply and logistics, in a flying squadrom stationed in Japan doing missions
            to and from Vietnam I saw many of the stuffed body bags and woundings that were typically saw as statistics and fortunes of war by the game players in Washington. I hated the war, I hate all wars but some have our justified participation, like if we are attacked or invaded. I have since observed and learned these wars are really some corporate strategies for building their bottom lines and expanding while their purchased politicians work for them as “mere paid employees”.
            This is why I wonder who the elected and appointed/hired government officials really represent.

            I think number 44, as you refer to Obama, is uniquely grinding the morality of so many on the Right and he has since we first knew he was running against Hilary for the Dem nomination. HHHMMM, how could
            they know to hate him from then, those who do hate him? Ronald Reagen recommended National Health Care and the GOP tried and badly failed with their version in the early 1990s. They are the ones who
            invented the Mandate that the GOP hates so much since it was pushed into OCare, not before. Why is that if the Mandate is theirs? Obama didn’t want the GOP items that were forced into OCare and he said so
            before it passed. That is the general nature of the political “Compromise” and all too often hurts us as it is in the OCare case. His immigration reform is unique too and it also is frustrating many on the Right. I wonder about that from points in history but I
            will leave it alone for here and now. I think these two issues most of all will define the Obama years.

            We all need to apply our own personal concerns in our speech and comments on sites like this as well as any place we care to share. I just wish it is always each persons real “personal concerns” and not so much what they chose to believe from the party of their
            choice. That is because we really do need the know the true agendas of our chosen party and candidates.

            Deer, you end your comment with “All those who seen no need for any change will be those that forever will
            oppose it. ~ and why not! ~ They were and had been enjoying entitlement afforded them by prior legislation, why would anyone in their right mind want to ask for a new deck of cards and a new dealer while they were winning?”.

            Well, I would like to comment on that but refer to only those who are qualified and deserve in their need to be an “entitled” person. First I feel only American citizens are entitled to American money. Things such as Social Security you have to prove you earned it while you worked so that shouldn’t be an issue. Your qualification depends on your proof. I also believe it would be fixed faster than the speed of light and made permanently solvent and fair if all elected officials were subjected to the same laws and conditions they subject us to. No more very expensive bennies paid for by us that we couldn’t afford for ourselves would do it (F A S T). SS is in no way a hand out or welfare or charity.

            Medicare gives many retired low fixed income people an opportunity to have health insurance when they other wise couldn’t be able to afford it. They pay monthly premiums so they are not getting it free either. To forget about them too, as with eliminating Social Security (some on the Right want to starve SS out of existence thus starving recipients of it to death or condemning them to homelessness), would be killing
            all those people who are elegiacal to the point of not being able to work any longer. I do not feel these fall into the needed-to-get-rid-of entitlements. Welfare should be evaluated monthly, in my opinion, and the “need” must be proven every month.

            I agree, “ask for a new deck of cards and a new dealer while they were” surviving indoors and eating every day would not take the heavy chance on “a new deck of cards and a new dealer”. For example, with what I have learned about corporate execs through my
            career working with them and how they must cut expenses, a major priority effort for them, I would hate to depend on exec types to manage my retirement instead of receiving Social Security as it is now. You can bet I would want the same deck and the same kind of people running it just so I could survive.

          • Deerinwater

            Well, hmm? ~ you bring forward so much.

            Getting your own darn money back is not an entitlement. Where it be you or those family members that survive you and depended on you. ~ Any other releasing of funds by the SS system will fall under the label of entitlement. How much of that sort of entitlement actually exist, I really am not certain. Some people claim too much.

            This habit of attempting to identify and place all of our nations people in two or three labeled boxes and then go about using a single language to address and refer to each box, assuming each box has a known quality, propensity and predispositions ~ makes fools of us all.

            American’s are much more diverse that what only 3 boxes will accommodate. ~ for every person you might appeal too with strong language, there will be two alienated, disenfranchised and put off. This is the arena that any politicians must work and produce in. Some are much better at it than other’s.

            Whether or not these politicians are perceived as better liars, better actors or less disingenuous is where the rubber meets the road. ~ Which one of them can sell the most rusty nails to people that own no hammer and live in a world of glass and steel.

            44 has proven to be an excellent salesman and to date managed to avoid ALMOST all the traps and pitfalls that have been placed before him. ~as he struggle with the image of being every Americans president as a noisy minority has been unrelenting in offering only their scorn and rejection since his inauguration day.

            Clearly any success 44 has, is reason for only more hate and scorn.

            I have reached the point , I find defending him, unnecessary anymore, ~ serving no purpose. ~ left to address the policy and merits of the issues. Anything else is little more than a diversion and distraction.

          • macgyver1948

            Deerinwater… You start with “Getting your own darn money back is not an entitlement“. I quote you with this because the reality in it, as it pertains to SSI, is total and very worth repeating and remembering. Those who want to starve SSI out of existence should hear it too. There are loads of elected in Congress who will work for that starving, many of whom because of that conflict-of-interest pledge they signed (over 270 of them – scary huh?).

            You go on to say “This habit of attempting to identify and place all of our nations people in two or three labeled boxes and then go about using a single
            language to address and refer to each box, assuming each box has a known quality, propensity and predispositions ~ makes fools of us all”.

            If I understand you here we do that “identify and place” thing in so many areas of our lives. In grade through high school we separate the students not below/average/above abilities and then, within each as they are separated into separate classes we treat each student as average. Those who are above get bored and those below will fall off. That is our public education system in general.

            This should be a country, as with most of the rest, of one official language, in our case English. After all immigrants chose to come here. But we should do that with compassion offering help until they learn English or we would have to wait for their next generation to
            pick it up from birth as so many millions of immigrants since before them did.

            Politically from our government we should treat everyone the same, no separating with labels, when it comes to rights and treatment – total equality. In the job arena we need to do that separating so the
            employer can know where to place the employee in order to place the best person in the job, according to qualifications.

            American people in general are diverse but that is because we are individuals with different personalities and skill sets. There is no getting around that. But I must reiterate by saying Government must treat us
            all with total equality when it comes to rights and liberty. All religions must be treated the exact same by government and neither, Government or any and all religions, should be able to influence the others habits and costumes. Freedom of Religions means equality for all equality and no one influences the other in their respective law makings. If we allow any one religion or denomination to influence law making we negate the liberty of “Freedom Of Religion” and the founders knew this by not including any word that supported or
            suggested any religion with in the Constitution. Just going by memory but I think it was John Adams who said “America should never suggest to the world America is a Christian country”, although I could be wrong about who said it but it was one of the founders and the rest agreed by the time the Constitution was finished. The same goes for color or nationality or creed or anything else.

            You go on to say “Whether or not these politicians are perceived as better liars, better actors or less disingenuous is where the rubber meets the road. ~ Which one of them can sell the most rusty nails to people that own no hammer and live in a world of glass and steel”.

            I cannot resist. First it must be determined who the politician is loyal to, us or some huge campaign donater or to a pledge he/she signed which conflicts with our interests and concerns. Many elected
            in Congress are lawyers which means they are trained deceivers, from law school, and it depends on the level of Ethics and honor he/she seeks for themselves as to how they will work their office and to whom they “really” see themselves loyal and responsible.

            44 has proven to be an excellent salesman in his ability to speak and present his ideas and desires. He shows he is intelligent, very much unlike 43, but how loyal to us and how effective he is is determined
            by each of our perspectives. Those on the Right in Congress seems to want to support big corporations and if that helps us in the process ok but they see 44 as in the way of the big corporation so they build their anti 44 campaigns accordingly. This is how politics
            works, the out party must come up with things to discredit the in party, for future elections, but I do not remember in my 65-year-old life time the isinformation, so often given but without a shred of evidence, to this degree from the out party for a president. There is
            so much more than just politics as usual when it comes to how the Right speaks of 44. Obama is by no means perfect but he is no where as bad and the Right claims. I have to wonder if for many of them if
            his color has something to do with it, his being the first black in the Oval Office, but I do see the powers that be on the Right do not want lack of support for the big corporations as primary concern. Wow I am being so polite here. LOL.

            44 has had much success, the list of his successes is long and hard, but he has had a hard up hill battle for much of what he attempted for us. We all are entitled to our opinions on his foreign policies and immigration, and certainly national health care, there is much good
            in his attempts as well as his successes. I have problems so some of the things he placed and allows but all in all we cannot expect perfection form a president. I hope we can take out the compromised
            entries in some of the things he has done and I do not mean, but very much included, just the ones in ObamaCare. And I think there is great reason The Right wants 43 not so much remembered and we saw that distancing in the Republican debates for their candidacy.

            With all the misinformation spewed about him from his opponents he might need defending from those of us who see good in him. I just laugh every time I hear someone from the Right refer to him as “god” or
            “Jesus” or some perfect being, meaning in their sarcasm we on the Left think of him in those terms. I do not know any Liberal who thinks of Obama as a god but we re told we do. Just more examples of how some who think of themselves capable of ONLY being right so they speak for others as if they had the God-given ability to define from their mind reading gift. That is the joke as well. LOL

  • Deerinwater

    As I understand it, ~ Congress did pass this legislation.

    • Warrior

      Isn’t it amazing, Darwin, that the “people” who “legislated” this action are having such a difficult time “implementing” their “scheme”. After all, it is a “right”. I grew some extra tomato’s this year. Would you like me to send you some or do you just want to come and “take” them?

      • Deerinwater

        yes, the devil always lies wait in the details. ~ there will be revisions.

        I don’t know if you have ever experienced working a large project or not Warrior . ~ but something as simple as a three story office building ~ revision are handed out daily to all the various tradesman. ~ and even then ~ the prints will never go as envisioned by the architect. ~ .while it will still look like and be his building on final completion. `

        i have no need of your tomatoes ~ but i’d fence them none the less, ~ David H might decide to annex them if no property line is obvious.

    • denise0513

      Actually Congress passed this legislation as a penalty and not as a tax. I believe the legislation needed to go back to congress and be written and voted on as a tax. While I also believe the dems would still all vote for it, I think it would be an even harder sell to their constituents. How many dems currently in congress would not even have a job HAD the legislation been returned for rewriting and voting?

      • smilee

        PENALTY IS A TAX THE COURT RULED THAT. You can call it anything you wish but if a law takes money from you under any name it is a tax. That is what Robert’s said

        • Bill

          Smilee,
          Bla Bla Bla, liberal BS used to sell a power play. Obamacare is not good for the individual, it is only good for the socialists to have more power and be able to steal more of our money

          • smilee

            Your entitled to your opinion, trouble is your wrong!

          • Bill

            Smilee,
            That is just your opinion

          • smilee

            Your right! My opinion is that your opinion is wrong!

          • Bill

            Given that it is just your opinion, it is probably wrong

        • denise0513

          Actually smilee, the Supreme Court stated AS a tax, the law was constitutional. You see, prior to passing the bill, Obama and his blind followers set about telling the people that it was NOT a tax but a penalty. Then, in front of the court they changed their talking points. Since it was put out to the people as a penalty, I believe it needs to go back to congress to be rewritten as a tax and then voted on again. However, we all know that Obama and his democratic butt lickers could not give 2 sh*ts about the Constitution and doing things the right way.

          • smilee

            Your right for once, their political rhetoric was that it was a penalty but their arguments before the court acknowledged it was tax under Art 1, sec 8 cl 1 There is a difference between political rhetoric and what is written in the law, what is written into the law counts what they say is not a part of the law. Their is no requirement in the law that has go back to the congress, this is settled. Roberts made it clear that a penalty is a tax so they are the same in law. It is you who do not understand the Constitution and Obama did go by it and you made it clear you do like that but that does not mean he is not doing things right.

          • MeanieHead

            YOU’RE not your.

          • Deerinwater

            Many of us ~ are willing to over look such details ~ To and two, then and than , Own and on, want and won’t ~ and grab the intended message.

            But it’s good to be brought to attention, less we accept it as proper. Meanyhead.

            Are you being just an ole meany?

      • billybob

        Constituents,” we don’t need no stinking Constituents,” all we need is special interest!

        • Bill

          Good analogy, Billybob
          In this day of Fascism, we just need our own special interest groups to buy our politicians. They stopped representing us a long time ago and they are just prostitutes working for the highest bidder.
          “I don’t need no stinking congressman”, I just need the one who pays him

          • Deerinwater

            well? ~ the system will not permit your to bypass and circumvent your attorney and represent yourself without counsel.

            you will not be permitted even the platform to speak.

            now ~ that ain’t right ~ but that’s the way it is and the way it works.

        • denise0513

          Their thinking EXACTLY!

      • Deerinwater

        I understand, ~ while I understand that taxes are in fact penalties called something different.

        And I agree with the notion ~ a rewrite and some fine tuning is required and to be expected.

        But make no mistake, ~ it is the attorneys and Insurance companies that will be taking in the lions share of whatever happens ~ unless ~ we can find a way to limit liability and law suits.

        If we could remove or limit the Capitalism in providing health care ~ it’d be a different ball game.

        there once was a time in our nation, ~ that we acknowledged and respected people that answered to “A Calling” ~ this time appears to have left us. ~ It is now the insurance companies that provide the prevailing climate of pure profit motivation. While the doctors have all but lost control of their chosen profession.

        Many times , I wish that i’d been a brighter young man when my profession chose me, but then again ~ after 43 years, I can’t imagine myself doing anything else. I do it because I love to do it, it pleases me to serve people

        • denise0513

          I really like the fact that many doctors are beginning to open “cash or credit card only” offices.

          I remember as a child, the doctor came to our house. I remember one time, he asked my mom if she could have me to his office in 1 hour and that was on a Sunday. He opened his office on a Sunday to see me. He knew mom and dad didn’t have much money so he just accepted whatever they handed him and never hounded them. they sent money whenever they could. That is when doctors took an oath to heal. Now, a lot of them take an oath to pay off their student loans in a year and then some.

          Capitalism isn’t the problem in healthcare. It is the greed! Hospitals overcharge for just about everything. On top of that, they double bill. I realize they do this to make up for all the people that use the facility and don’t pay. (illegal aliens mostly) Then there is Big Pharma! They are definitely greedy!
          In fact, greed has taken hold of this country and it is greed we need to shake. There is no shame in earning an honest living and even making a profit, but when you charge someone $5. for one tylenol when that same medication can be bought at the store in a bottle of 50 or more for $2. or $3. more, that’s greed!

  • wandamurline

    If they call this a “penalty” one more time, I am going to scream…..this is a “tax” not a penalty as per the traitor, John Roberts of the Supreme Court….it is a tax, a tax, a tax….because if it were a penalty, it would be Unconstitutional.

    • nomad

      It’s a penalty because if you don’t pay the IRS will do what it always does which is Impose a massive penalty that dwarfs the act that was not performed.

      • wandamurline

        But it cannot be a penalty….because John Roberts rewrote the law so it would be Constitutional….if it is a penalty, then it is unconstitutional….so it has to be a TAX in order for Obamacare to be Constitutional. I am confused….but, what I really think is that the whole damned thing is Unconstitutional, along with TSA, NSA, IRS, and the most Unconstitutional is the Patriot Act….all need to go.

        • smilee

          He rewrote nothing, you are so ignorant and only good at spreading lies. Your right about one thing through, you are confused.

          • TheOriginalDaveH

            You have no credibility on this board, Sleepee.

          • smilee

            Ten times more than you have. I doubt you read Roberts opinion so your most likely goosing ghosts in the dark!

          • TheOriginalDaveH

            Roberts opinion is meaningless to me. To expect a branch of the Federal Government to go against their own Gang is naive indeed.
            It is about as naive as you are non-credible, Sleepee.
            http://mises.org/daily/4811

          • smilee

            Anything aside from your own greed is meaningless to you!!

          • Bill

            Smilee
            Greed is Great!!!
            It’s what makes the world go round. If you are not greedy and so much better than us (like you always tell us), then what is stopping from giving all of your assets to the socialist that you promote. Come on there, Smilee, put your money where your mouth is

          • Bill

            Smilee
            You are the one that is lying to push a political agenda. Typical liberal, resort to name calling when someone disagrees with you. Go back underneath your rock

          • smilee

            What political agenda, my only agenda is to enlighten with the truth and what is political about that or Robert’s opinion and that is what i’m addressing. It appears when you have nothing intelligent to say you just throw BS at it to see if it sticks. People like you add nothing but BS to the conversation. Rather be smart and try and make a case to rebutt what i actually said. I make an opinion but it was not name calling. What name did you think I called anyone???

          • Bill

            Smilee,
            You called one writer ignorant when they did not agree with you. You are not giving us “the Truth”, you are only giving us your opinion. Which is based on a left wing nutcase agenda.

          • smilee

            Calling you ignorant was my opinion and still is. Roberts opinion is his not mine and it is not a left wing agenda it is a legal non partisan document and what I gave you was his opinion and it is true which you can confirm by reading it yourself but i’m betting your to ignorant to do so.

          • Bill

            Smilee
            There you go again, with your name calling. Typical condescending arrogant liberal that thinks you are smarter than everyone else.
            Maybe I might be ignorant to certain things but you are acting stupid by calling everyone else ignorant because they do not agree with you
            Life is tough, it is even tougher when you are stupid

          • smilee

            I only pointed out you are ignorant and you are, that is my opinion meaning you lack knowledge but that is not name calling but I guess your to ignorant to know the difference about that too. Having knowledge does not make one smarter than someone else it only means you have more knowledge but your to ignorant to know that to. Are you referring to yourself in your last sentence??

          • MeanieHead

            OMG! YOU are calling people ignorant when YOU are using “your” instead of “you’re” and “to” instead of “too.” You’re an Obamabot.

          • smilee

            Your handle says it all, you did not address my content. Is that because you are so ignorant of it you can give no intelligent response beyond pointing out a simple meaningless error. Well, you do live up to your name.

          • real talk 1

            Why do you guy’s engage in conversation with a liberal you must never go there ever?

          • real talk 1

            Bill that’s all he has you have the truth on your side.

          • hungry4food

            The IRS is the least of our problems people !!!!!!

            And once this Amnesty Immigration things gets going and the states all pour these welfare benefits into the hands of the Immigrants Oh the Republican party will NEVER win a Election again because Obama and the Democrats will say in the 2014 election year see those Republicans want to cut off these nice little benefits we are giving you so don’t vote for them and that will be it .

            And they don’t care if it breaks the current economic system they want to replace it anyway !!!!!

            The Work versus Welfare Trade-Off: 2013
            http://object.cato.org/sites/cato.org/files/pubs/pdf/theworkversus.pdf

          • real talk 1

            The IRS is the problem because without it the federal government wouldn’t abuse the tax payers like it doe’s unless of course they live in your world and I wouldn’t want to go there.

        • real talk 1

          Since when did the supreme court have the power to rewrite the constitution?

          • wandamurline

            They don’t have that authority, but John Roberts changed the language from a penalty to a tax….a penalty makes Obamacare unconstitutional….a tax to Mr. Roberts is justified because of the Commerce Clause.

    • smilee

      Any money that the government collects from you is a tax. Your free to call it anything you like but it is still a tax. Roberts made that clear in his opinion. A penalty is not unconstitutional because it is really a tax. You know nothing about this,

  • Jim B.

    There is no more government legitimacy! America needs to wake up to the fact that our government has become un-American and its continuance will be to our own end, and a quick one at that! An army of tax collectors with the authority to rule and govern by force! It is upon us, we can be weak and concede, or we can revolt to restore proper order i.e. replace that which has cause us so much angst and hardship!

    • Vazir_Mukhtar

      What makes a government “legitimate”? The majority of those voting in the 2012 election chose President Obama, the House, and those running for the Senate. Apparently whatever voter fraud there may have been was insignificant, that is, insufficient to change the results of the election. Those voting were not coerced to vote; those not voting were not penalized.

      Had we taken to the mall, Farragut and McPherson Squares in protest as did the Egyptians with Tahrir Square, I doubt that even had Mr Obama been elected as a result, we would have taken once more to places of assembly in Washington, or any other city. We may not be content, but it is far easier to complain than to put to the fire the feet of our representatives and Senators, which is but a first step in switching the Obama-Democrat locomotive to another track.

      As to the Republicans, when will they realize that they are not the Congregation of the Faithful, their party leader is not Torquemada, and those not accepting such ideas as no abortion, no gay marriage, and no just about anything else are to be tortured and burned at the stake.

      As long as the leaders of the GOP behave as they do now, unless the Democrats make a scarcely imaginable blunder, the people will elect a Democrat president in 2016. GOP bigwigs seem to have forgotten that in an election the goal is to win, not to prove that one believes the creed.

      That said, there is one part of the General Confession that the GOP should take to heart, even if they won’t recite it: …”we have done the things we ought not to have done and have left undone the things we ought to have done; and there is no health in us”…

      • Jim B.

        What a mess they (our government) have made of things, uh! Come 2014 the government’s tax train will complete its destruction upon this great nation in order to ward off its own foreign debt collectors. Printing money as an option is all but doomed us, printing more will be their decision, and it will be the wrong one. We now stand at number 13 or 14 as the world freest nation, that is pathetic given what we started. Hopefully others, those that lead us in freedom and liberty, will continue the creed of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

      • Warrior

        Good. so the “recess participants” should come back from their playground and DEFUND NOW! Sorry……………….they’re out of excuses.

  • Don 2

    Here’s a 4-minute video that explains why the Canadian and the United Kingdom national healthcare programs are failures and costing lives, and what the trade-off for Obamacare will cost Americans.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch_popup?v=G44NCvNDLfc

  • smilee

    Very few of the lawsuits filed against the administration have found any legs. These are filed for political reasons not legal ones and that is why they almost always fail and this one will to. Remember when on here they were saying Obamacare would surly be declared unconstitutional, they were wrong, same with immigration laws in AZ etc. Look at the dozens of suits the birthers have filed and all have failed everyone, it has become predictable they will lose.

  • Vazir_Mukhtar

    When did the Constitution stop President Obama from issuing an Executive Order or directing one of the cabinet officers to implement a policy/program he thought in the best interests of the country?

    That’s bad enough. Far worse, IMO, is the conscious or unconscious refusal of those with standing to sue the responsible party. Even a stay is a useful tool.

    Mr Obama well remembers that the law is like a telephone poll: you can’t jump over it, but you can go around it.

    We the people need to remember that if you can’t outgun ‘em, you have to out-think ‘em.

    I won’t cite John Locke’s quote about the only thing necessary for the triumph of evil; for I suspect readers can Google it if they don’t know or remember it.

  • Dumpthekoolaid

    Sounds like another case for “Roberts to the rescue”. Let’s face it folks, they are all in on it. You are either kickin’ it in the ivory tower, or you are going down. Ivory towers aren’t cheap either, the cost is exactly one soul per tower. I’m not selling my soul to sell out our country like these harlots do every single day.

    • hungry4food

      …….and if you don’t like it this is what you get from DHS !!!!!

      You Won’t believe this , its Absolutely incredible .

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=HETWPc1FKEY#t=14

    • joe1cr

      Wonder what Obummer is blackmailing Roberts with ?

      • chris

        His 2 illegally adopted children

      • real talk 1

        Let’s give ole boy justice Roberts some credit he was already and primed to go when Obama hit the white house.

  • 1baronrichsnot1

    Sebelius will figure it out. She has an excellent record as govenor of Kansas, she bankrupted the state in little more than 2 years, is dense as a tree, can’t organize a one car parade, and tries to blame her facist businesses for her mistakes. Obama holds true to his actions, everything he touches turns to crap, and all he hires do the same. Incompetency rules, theft, corruption and graft is the orders of the day, every day.

    • Bill

      Good analogy, Baron

    • real talk 1

      Its not that all Obama touches turn to it’s drawn to him because that’s all he recognize and that include supreme court appointees and his school of thought in learning the Chicago school of thuggery.

  • WiSe GuY

    When you start with an 0bama brain-fart, you end up with a turd.

  • lonebear

    I think it was Edgar Allen Poe who said the best revenge was one where the target of the revenge knew that revenge was being put on him and was powerless to do anything about it. This kind of seems to fit in that category along with a whole host of stories like this. O Care is coming apart at the seams and he can’t stop it.

  • rick0857

    There is but ONE CURE FOR THIS MESS…elect as many CONSERVATIVES to both Houses of Congress in 2014 as possible and REPEAL THIS THING. That would mean we’ll need 290 conservative minded representatives in the House and 67 in the Senate. For those are the vote totals necessary to override a veto from the idiot in chief.

    • wolfendenpackleader

      and if that is done, we are all doomed. the GOP ONLY cares for the elite and big corporation, YOU ARE EXPENDABLE and they will let you know soon enough if they get both houses.

      • rick0857

        Clearly you know nothing about how the government works try a course in civics NOT TAUGHT BY LIBERALS.

  • chuckb

    ObaMacare will be installed. The Republicans look in the mirror and punch themselves. This is nothing more than the greatest tax increase in the history of the country. The lower class thinks they are getting something for nothing, they will end up with mediocre medical care and a long line of waiting.
    Remember the great turn coat on the Supreme Court,” John Roberts”, he said the law was unconstitutional, however, as a tax it is legal. This traitor could have

    declared the bill unconstitutional and ended this nightmare. The conservatiVes are making a big show about defunding the bill, this isn’t going to happen, first off they don’t have the guts to take on the Bolsheviks and they will back down at the last moment. In the meantime they will collect as many dollars as possible for their next campaign.
    Impeach John Roberts, Barry Soetoro and run the Bolsheviks out of town along with all the rino’s.

    • real talk 1

      Even the Supreme Court is in on the lies and scandals and they can’t any longer be trusted no more prestige don’t matter your intelligence if you don’t follow the laws and the constitution of this nation.

  • real talk 1

    We really should get rid of the IRS in the present form . lets work on it ??