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Court: Elementary Children Entitled To Religious Free Speech

October 4, 2011 by  

Court: Elementary Children Entitled To Religious Free Speech

A free speech case that has been in litigation for nine years was resolved by the 5th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals last week; the ruling was in the favor of freedom of speech for children.

Morgan v. Plano Independent School District was a case involving students and families, represented by the Liberty Institute, who were denied their free speech rights and who were discriminated against because their speech was religious in nature. One boy was banned from handing out candy cane pens with a religious message at his class “winter” party, a girl was threatened for handing out tickets after school to a religious play, and an entire class of children were forbidden from writing “Merry Christmas” on holiday cards to American troops serving overseas by the Plano Independent School District. Government officials argued that elementary students are too young to have First Amendment rights.

“Imagine the United States of America where the First Amendment protects a minor’s right to play violent video games, a person’s right to hatefully protest the funerals of our heroic men and women in the military, and the right to possess portrayals depicting animal cruelty, such as videos of people crushing kittens with their shoes, but does not protect a child’s right to share a pencil with another child at school merely because the pencil says the word ‘Jesus’,” said Judge Jennifer Walker Elrod of the case.

The Liberty Institute said that it is pleased with the court’s ruling but disappointed that school officials who discriminated and made threats against students who made mention of religion in school were not held legally accountable for their actions.

“A school official grabbing a little elementary school girl by the shoulder and threatening to kick her out of school for handing a ‘Jesus’ pencil to a friend after school is unacceptable,” said a statement from the organization.

 

 

Sam Rolley

Staff writer Sam Rolley began a career in journalism working for a small town newspaper while seeking a B.A. in English. After learning about many of the biases present in most modern newsrooms, Rolley became determined to find a position in journalism that would allow him to combat the unsavory image that the news industry has gained. He is dedicated to seeking the truth and exposing the lies disseminated by the mainstream media at the behest of their corporate masters, special interest groups and information gatekeepers.

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  • http://naver sook young

    Yes, a victory for our nation and Christian founding. Take that liberals and atheists! Thank you.

    Sook Young
    Wife of the Samurai

    • Robert Smith

      Hey sook, how the heck are you.

      Here is an analogy you might appreciate. I consider your brand of religion with its brutal god much like the implement of a male rapist. To show it off when another doesn’t want to see it is bad enough. If you try to shove it down my kid’s throat I’ll guarantee you a difficult time as due process assures you a long term in jail for your perversion.

      Rob

      • wandamurline

        I don’t believe the little girl was shoving anything down anyone’s throat. If you do not believe in Jesus, that is your right and it is your right to tell everyone that you are a nonbelieve…on the other hand, I do believe in Jesus and it should be my right to tell everyone that I believe in him. Free speech goes both ways.

        • Robert Smith

          From wandamurline: “I don’t believe the little girl was shoving anything down anyone’s throat.”

          That’s a matter of perspective. Are you doing the shoving or is it your throat?

          “Free speech goes both ways.”

          Really. Then you would accept a kid giving out Pagan pens and discussing their religion?

          Rob

          • libertytrain

            I’m guessing it would be deemed aok for the pagan kid to distribute whatever they wanted.

          • bob wire

            99.9% of the time, what children of this age do or don’t is totally benign.

            How some adults react to it gives it acidic tone and nature.

            If a young Muslin child was found handed out Islam pencils how might you feel about it? How might you react?

            Anyone care to answer? ~ I will give you my answer.

            I would not like it but this single event would not make me react to it.

          • 45caliber

            Rob:

            Why shouldn’t we accept a pagan child handing things out like that? The Muslim kids can if they wish – and the courts (and you) would insist that is their right. So what is the difference between them and Christian kids?

            As to your comments – I’ve seen them before. And they are wrong – as most atheists do it. If you don’t believe in Christianity, fine. Just don’t insist we can’t talk about it among ourselves. Just go away.

          • crystal

            …but Robert, you agree with SB 48 shoving homosexuality down the throats of kids in classrooms.

          • http://naver sook young

            I can say anything I wish about God, Jesus, Christianity, and the Bible if I wish to and you can’t tell me differently. You always say bad things sbout we Christians, but never have anything substantial to say. You only post hate on this site and I agree with 45 Calibur that you should just go away. You have no right to force your beliefs on us. How about you prove there is no God or that we are bad people. Tell about how all Christians are bad, not just a select few. Can you do that? Thank you.

            Sook Young
            Wife of the Samurai

          • Rebecca Fahlin

            Children are not representives of the government. They hold no authoriatrian power therefore there is no cohersion when a child hands over a pencil that may have a Bible verse, or a Pagan verse, or whatever to another child to use. Also how is a child who simply says I’m a Christian, or I’m Jewish, etc. forcing religion or philosophy down another person’s throat, but it’s o.k. if a person who holds authority, and who represents the government, since they are paid by the taxpayers, crams down their Atheism down the throats of students by creating a hostile classroom environment where students are told that if they don’t agree with the teacher they will receive a failing grade?

        • nowhereman

          You are correct, wandamurline. “It goes both ways.”

          The first amendment does not apply to some, but rather to everyone, weather on the street or on a church property, including a subject of politics as long a it is not hurting anyone i.e, “yelling fire in a crowded theater” or inciting to riot or giving out secret information we depend on for our safety and security, etc, etc, well you get the picture.

          On the other hand, just like the rest of us, I also believe churches should pay taxes on all properties and monies that do not go directly to or being held for use by qualifying charities. Besides being fair to non-religious folk, I believe this would also do away with many fly-by-night tax scammers like churches of “Elvis”, Satan, Church Of Tax Evasion, International Churches of Christ, Inc., HOPE worldwide, LTD. Obviously, these kind of scams go on and on farther than the eye can see, but you get the picture. And to think, Congress and the President want to raise taxes on the rest of us.

          • http://naver samurai

            That would be hard to do since churches survive on what they are given. Charity is non-taxible. Giving to a church is charitable. Keep the government’s hands off of the churches and keep them tax free. If you did tax them, they may not be able to help the needy, fund missions, etc., now who would want that? Need to get a life. FOR GOD AND COUNTRY!

      • Average Joe

        Robert Smith,

        Hey RS, how the heck are you?

        Here is an analogy you might appreciate. I consider your brand of religious ignorance with its brutal stupidity much like the implement of a male rapist. To show it off when another doesn’t want to see it is bad enough. If you try to shove it down my kid’s throat I’ll guarantee you a difficult time as due process assures you a long term in Hell for your perversion.

        AJ

        Why is it that unbelievers (such as yourself) feel the need to chastize anyone who doesn’t agree with your views? Why do you feel that it is OK to express your views, but that others should not?Since nobody has ever come back from being dead, your views are no more informed than anyone elses views on the subject of the afterlife. As for your comment about someone shoving something down your kids throats, it isn’t likely to happen, although it is apparent that they need some kind of guidance …..other than from the bigotted fool that they have been getting their guidance from. I think your problem is a simple problem…LEARN TO MIND YOU OWN BUSINESS and let others do the same….teach by example!

        One man’s theology is another man’s belly laugh.
        Robert A. Heinlein

        The supreme irony of life is that hardly anyone gets out of it alive.
        Robert A. Heinlein

        • Robert Smith

          From AJ: “As for your comment about someone shoving something down your kids throats, it isn’t likely to happen,…”

          Really? Then you supprt those of us who don’t think “under god” should be in our Pledge? Why not make it “under goddess” instead to comply with the beliefs of others? Oh, and don’t give me that founding fathers garbage. They were clear about keeping religion out of government.

          How about helping lobby agains preying in schools? Or, can a teacher lead a prayer to Zeuse or Athena?

          Rob

          • libertytrain

            I’m pretty sure a teacher could lead a prayer to Zeuss or Athena but not Christ.

          • BobfromCT

            Wrong. They were clear about keeping government out of religion. Religion/sprituality, whatever one may call it, has always come before government in all cultures and societies throughout ancient and modern history. As usual you “the universe revolves around me” types have it backwards.

          • Bob Petersen

            Rob — I am with you that “Under God” needs to be removed from the Pledge. We must become enlightened sometime, and the sooner the better when it comes to myths and superstitions. All references to Gods (of any type) must be eliminated from our public society. Keep it all in churches, synagogues, temples or other private venues that can support these ancient practices however they want to, without subjecting those of us who don’t want to be exposed to these protected from them.

            Peace and tolerance to all.

          • Mac

            I am with you on removing “under God” from the pledge of allegiance. I grew up without it, was out of high school before it was added in 1954, and I wondered at the time how they could possibly do that because it was not allowed by the Constitution.

            On the other side, I don’t see how the ACLU and others can legally object to religious expressions in the classroom that are not required by laws passed by congress. Schools, school boards, school principals, et al, are NOT Congress, I don’t care what court interpretations may say.

          • Average Joe

            Robert Smith,

            Who cares whether you say the word God or not….if it offends you, don’t say it….but don’t whine and cry over someone else that wants to say. Again, it simply comes back to minding your own business.If you don’t like something, don’t participate in it, it’s that simple, but don’t try to place your morals on others by trying to deny them the same rights that you want for yourself…..wadda maroon!

            “Oh, and don’t give me that founding fathers garbage. They were clear about keeping religion out of government.”

            I wasn’t going to mention any such thing, but since you brought it up…..
            Amendment 1 – Freedom of Religion, Press, Expression. Ratified 12/15/1791.

            Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

            Notice the opening phrase? Congress shall make no law….that means that they can’t tell us who, what, how or when to worship…got it?

            You are free to believe as you choose…you are not however, free to tell the rest of us how, what,who or when to believe.
            If you feel the need to change the word “God” to another word…if it is the only thing that will tickle your fancy, by all means substitute another word….then pour yourself another cup of STFU…..because you are just being a whinny little Biatch.

            Just because I stop debating you,doesn’t mean that you’ve won the debate. It simply means that you are not worthy of me wasting any more of my valuable time on you or your useless rhetoric.

          • clj

            Hey Rob,
            If you don’t want to say under God in the Pledge of Allegiance, then don’t, but DON’T tell me I can’t. If you don’t believe in God, then fine, but DON’T tell me I can’t. If you love Obama and all he stands for which I am sure you do, DON’T tell me I have to. You want you freedom of religion and speech, so do I, IT GOES BOTH WAYS. If someone is handing out literature you are not interested in, don’t take it, you have that freedom of choice.
            Until then, Butt out of my business

          • bob wire

            “Until then, Butt out of my business”

            Well Madam/Sir, that’s the problem, your business is intertwined with someone else s business ~ isn’t it?

          • 45caliber

            Rob:

            Again you are wrong. The founding fathers were NOT about keeping religion out of government – they were about keeping government out of religion. TWO TOTALLY DIFFERENT THINGS. If you bother to read any of their works you will find that they believed that religion should be in government in that it kept down the crime caused by government workers. Too bad they still don’t. Trying to change it around won’t make it different – and will most likely not change anyone’s mind here as you hope to do.

          • http://?? Joe H.

            45caliber,
            you have to understand, robbie has a problem with dislexia, he’s always getting things backward!!!

          • http://naver sook young

            Sorry Robert, but you are wrong. There is no seperation, we are one nation under Him. Without Godm there is no America. Thomas Jefferson stated in a tract which he laid out the justifications for the American Revolution. “Can the liberties of a nation be secure when we have removed a conviction that these liberties are the gift of God? That they are not to be violated but by his wrath?” Today, in the name of “equality” and “political correctness” the basic liberty to love and worship God – the God of the Holy Bible – is being undermined. A vocal and less intelligent minority has undertaken a mission to rewrite history and force all Americans to live in a society without the God of our forefathers and without the freedoms that they acknowledged and declared God granted us. Here is my source for what I have said to Robert and his misguided ways.

            http://www.keepgodinamerica.com

            Thank you.

            Sook Young
            Wife of the Samurai

          • bob wire

            “Again you are wrong. The founding fathers were NOT about keeping religion out of government – they were about keeping government out of religion. TWO TOTALLY DIFFERENT THINGS.”

            Well, in a way that is true 45, No one is being asked to check their morals at the door before entering the Halls of Government. In fact we are hoping they bring them along, to the point of insisting that they do. But it is not the religion we seek but the Divine and as you say they are to different things.

            religion is not God and God is not religion, Religion is something made by man to help him understand God and connect with God but is so often tainted by man. Religion is used as a prop to subjugate for the purpose of dominion. God is welcome, your on personal path to God is yours and yours only, important to only you. Where one reaches the point of accepting God into your life, religion is but an road map showing us paths traveled,the many stops and detours along the way. You don’t need to show up with you road map. You got there or you didn’t. If you feel it necessary to bring your map, ~ you don’t get there.

        • Robert Smith

          From AJ: “Why is it that unbelievers (such as yourself) feel the need to chastize anyone who doesn’t agree with your views?”

          Denying right wing christian extremists access to my kids so they can be “converted” isn’t denying your point of view.

          The abuses of christians a well documented. Remember Edgardo Mortara? You can do more research but here is an overview: http://davidkertzer.com/en/book/export/html/24

          Rob

          • Average Joe

            “Denying right wing christian extremists access to my kids so they can be “converted” isn’t denying your point of view.”

            Does paranoia run in your family? Do you think that every christian in the world is targeting you and your family….for salvation? Get over yourself…you aren’t that important to us (you get to pay for your deeds, not us). If you are so worried that someone may mention God to your children, I am guessing that you might need to take them out of public schools…move into a cave in the middle of a desert…because there a lot of people in the big old world ….and many of them are christians….and short of you cutting your family off from the rest of the world…for the rest of their lives, somewhere along the lines…they are going to be exposed to many things that you don’t approve of during the course of their lives. Good luck with that….You sir have your work cut out for you….
            Tolerance of others?…Where’s yours?
            Seek proffessional help for the Paranoid / Delusional issues.

            If somebody thinks they’re a hedgehog, presumably you just give ‘em a mirror and a few pictures of hedgehogs and tell them to sort it out for themselves.
            Douglas Adams

          • bob wire

            “Do you think that every christian in the world is targeting you and your family….for salvation? Get over yourself…you aren’t that important to us (you get to pay for your deeds, not us).”

            No not every Christian, just a few million. And correct, everyone with end up responsible for the seeds they have sown. So offer this helpful reminder to others with it’s found fitting.

          • 45caliber

            Rob:

            I do believe he’s beed dead for some time now – along with everyone else involved in this. Why don’t you give examples in the last ten years? Oh, that’s right, you can’t.

          • http://naver sook young

            It is the duty of all nations to acknowledge the providence of Almighty God, to obey His will, to be grateful for His benefits, and humbly to implore His protection and favor.”

            Georger Washington

            Thank you.

            Sook Young
            Wife of the Samurai

      • Commonsense

        It is funny how the ignorant are the first to jump up and cast stones! Have you even read the bible? Koran? Anything on any religion? I mean more than you got off a 20/20 interview? Knowledge is power. Not power to control anyone or anything but power to make an informed decision. If you, as a nonreligious person have not informed yourself, how are you going to give your children the power they need to make a decision. Using the word “BECAUSE” when your kids ask why this religion or that religion is bogus in your mind isn’t going to cut it. It is a wonder that we as a society haven’t fallen further into a quagmire of inequity! My personal belief is through Jesus Christ. If you don’t like that, that is your personal choice to not like it. Fine. But I will find more people willing to listen to the word of Jesus because I am read on it, and other religions for that matter, while you will only have your own ingrown bitterness to keep you company. Jesus has never been about killing people or destroying non-believers. He is about finding your path in life. You are one of those people that, through your own ignorance scoff at anyone with a belief just because it galls you that they have found the strength to believe, be it Judism, Christianity, Buddism, ect. I have nothing but pity for you. Narrow is the path, and I hope you find one that works for you. Just remember, God can’t make you follow him anymore than a 7 year old girl is going to “stuff” religion down your throat. You have to find him. That’s the deal.

        • Robert Smith

          From Commonsense: “Jesus has never been about killing people or destroying non-believers. ”

          Let’s see… How did your family do during the inquisitions?

          How many doctors have been killed by christian extremists?

          Simply for marrying a same sex couple some christian leaders have been called non-christians.

          And then there is the outright “god hates fags” garden variety of terrorist.

          Which christian are you? It’s so confusing to an outsider.

          Rob

          • lord_leclerc

            The problem with the Inquisition argument is that it was a political instrument (similar to the Gestapo or KGB) that both the Papacy and the French and Spanish monarchies used to their own personal ends during the Middle Ages. The truth is, the vast majority of the people killed and tortured by the Inquisition were Christians.

            Beyond that, most of the analogies you are pointing at are, by your own admission, extremists. Muslim extremists blow themselves up in the streets killing innocent victims to go to Paradise. Do I hold my neighbors who happen to be Muslim responsible? Atheists were responsible for some of the worst cases of mass murder in world history but do I hold my atheist friends responsible for the actions of some madmen? No.

            The incident with the “Christian Leaders” marrying same-sex couples is different. If someone (especially a leader) who claims to be following the teachings of a faith is publicly disregarding facets of it, shouldn’t that be called into question? In this case, like it or not, homosexuality is condemned by scripture. This does not condone violence or bigotry toward those who practice it as both of those actions are also condemned. To turn it into a legal question, imagine a politician who presented himself as an upright and honest citizen and a champion of fiscal integrity. If he got someone appointed as the financial manager of a government project that he knows has a history of embezzling, and the individual then steals the money he’s entrusted with, doesn’t that destroy his credibility?

          • bob wire

            “If you, as a nonreligious person have not informed yourself, how are you going to give your children the power they need to make a decision.”

            You mean program your children to a religious a bias don’t you?

            Well Sir, I’m not religious and I most likely have studied scripture as long and maybe more in depth then most. I admit to being spiritual as I fail to see how one can disown their parents, even if they might wish too.

          • 45caliber

            How did my family do in the inquisition?

            Actually I have no idea – and could care less. Unlike the Muslims, I don’t continue to hold grudges for hundreds of years based on what might have happened to some ancestor. My grudges are for people who live NOW and do things to me or mine NOW. Why should I CARE about someone a hundred or more years ago?

          • http://naver sook young

            Robert, why do you constantly say the same unfounded statements? Are you showing us that you are a broken record and keep skipping back to the same statements by coming to a scratch in the record? You always make no sense.

            “For my own part, I sincerely esteem it a system which without the Finger of God, never could have been suggested and agreed upon by such a diversity of interests.”

            Alexander Hamilton

            “Let us not forget the religious character of our origin.”

            Daniel Webster

            It is the duty of nations as well as of men to owe their dependence on the overruling power of God, to confess their sins and transgressions in humble sorrow.”

            Abraham Lincoln

            “The highest glory of the American Revolution was this; it connected in one indissoluble bond the principles of civil government and principles of Christianity.”

            John Quincy Adams

            “Providence has given to our people the choice of their rulers and it is the duty, as well as the privilege and interest of our Christian nation to select and prefer Christians for their rulers.”

            John Jay

            “Those who are not ruled by God, will be ruled by tyrants.”

            William Penn

            “I am a Christian. I believe only in the scriptures, and in Jesus Christ my Savior.”

            Charles Thomson (Signer of the Declaration of Independence)

            “What students would learn in American schools above all is the religion of Jesus Christ.”

            George Washington (Speach to the Delaware Indian Chiefs May 12, 1779)

            If these are not enough to prove you wrong Robert, I can always ask my husband for more of these factual quotes. Thank you.

            Sook Young
            Wife of the Samurai

          • Rebecca Fahlin

            Hey Robert, Show me where in the New Testament did Jesus or any of His Apostles said Let’s have inquistion and let’s torture people that don’t believe in me, etc.? Those autrocities that were done in the name of Christ were not based on what they had read in the New Testament. F.Y.I. many of these “Christians” like the Crusaders did not have the Gospel of Jesus Christ written in their language, and furthermore many of them could not read or write their own names let alone read the Bible so how could they have gotten their reason to commit violence in the name of Christ because of “what they read in the New Testament”? Sorry but you can’t peg the teachings of Christ onto the Inquistion or other such autrocities because the peg doesn’t fit!!

        • http://?? Joe H.

          Commonsense,
          Please don’t encourage robbie to read!! He read somewhere that unborn children are ACORNS and has been spouting that ever since!!! Actually, he’s just tired of writtin checks!!!

          • http://naver sook young

            Yes. It is sad when another human being has no respect for another person’s life. He is just a hateful person who is trying to give us his displaced anger. He is actually angry at himself and must be full of guilt and sorrow. Thank you.

            Sook Young
            Wife of the Samurai

      • Patriot II

        Hey Robert;

        Imagine you were at a late meeting at your office downtown, it is after 11:00 PM and you have to walk through this alley to get to the parking lot where your car is. You can see your car sitting out in the open empty parking lot a few yards away beyond the Alley. You are halfway through the alley and you hear a door open behind you in the dark. You look behind you and you can just barley make out that there are a group of young men (you can hear their voices) Laughing and messing around but they are coming towards YOU!!!

        Now, would you rather that these young men just came out of a Gang meeting…………………or a Bible Study?

        • Robert Smith

          Patriot asks: “Now, would you rather that these young men just came out of a Gang meeting…………………or a Bible Study?”

          Neither of them would bother me. If they do there is little difference in the paperwork if they phisicaly threaten me.

          BTW, christians on either side in Belfast could be easily feared. Blown up anything lately?

          Rob

          • Patriot II

            Robert;

            I beleive you are a Liar! ……………….mostly to yourself

          • BobfromCT

            So you must REALLY have a problem with Islam, right? For the amusement of us all, why don’t you demonstrate your knowledge and open our minds with your brilliant perspective on how the two religions DIFFER. I say DIFFER becuase we already know what you would think the similarities are.

          • Lost in Paradise

            What kind of effing paper work can you do from the grave???? That is if that gang decides to mess you up and take your life.

          • http://naver sook young

            Have you blown up anything lately? Ahhhhh such word play to insult others and steal their rights. Robert believes in squashing the rights of all Christians for his lard and master satan. I really feel sorry for you and will pray for you. Thank you.

            Sook Young
            Wife of the Samurai

          • independant thinker

            How sad it is that Robert is so threatened by the very mention of God.

      • Patriot II

        Hey Robert;

        Imagine you were at a late meeting at your office downtown, it is after 11:00 PM and you have to walk through this alley to get to the parking lot where your car is. You can see your car sitting out in the open empty parking lot a few yards away beyond the Alley. You are halfway through the alley and you hear a door open behind you in the dark. You look behind you and you can just barley make out that there are a group of young men (you can hear their voices) Laughing and messing around but they are coming towards YOU!!!

        Now, Question for you……….would you rather these young me just came out of a Gang meeting…..or a Bible Study?

      • The Traditionalist

        Hey Robert, I consider your brand of religon, a threat to our freedoms.When it comes to shoving religion down someones throat the public school system is at the top of the list with it’s Godless secularist views of evolution, socialism, anthism, homosexuality, immorality and Christian bias, all of which comprise the religion of secular humanism, which has been ruled by the U.S. Supreme Court as a religion. Secular humanist organizations are permitted a tax exempt status, the same as churches. The children in the public schools are being constantly exposed to this antheistic philosophy every day they attend school. It is not the Christians who are shoving their beliefs down another’s throat– it is the people who think as you do. The book of 1st John says “even now are there many anti-christs: whereby we know it is the last days”, and you are one of them. I suggest you get your heart right with God before the day that you have to face him.

      • Lost in Paradise

        You are one “sick” MF.

        • Honestly

          We should all pray for this person. They really need the grace of God.

      • LadyGreenEyes

        Yet you would, no doubt, support teaching kids to be GAY in schools, right? teaching CHILDREN, that don’t even THINK about sex unless some adult brings it up, t be perverted. Right? I guess you think teaching YOUR children what YOU think is fine and dandy, right? But people of faith aren’t supposed to do that? Children don’t have a RIGHT to share what they think with others? You seem to be confused as to what freedom means.

        • 45caliber

          To Rob and friends, ‘Freedom’ means doing things HIS way.

          • LadyGreenEyes

            Very true! His ilk don’t realize, they will be the last to lose their freedoms, when the dictators they empower take over!

      • Jay

        Ohh, what’s the matter Robbie wuabie? The GOOD NEWS displeases you? GOOD! I love to watch you squirm, you sick fool!!!

      • Rebecca Fahlin

        Hey Robert, What makes you think that Sook is trying to force something done your child’s throat?

  • Fredsworld

    Amen Amen Amen!!!God Bless You and yes Jesus Loves You!! Take that Liberal Atheist Devil Spawn!!

  • Docmo

    The most important thing here is that a child has seen what it means to be an American Citizen.

    • Ted Crawford

      Well said and spot on! Thank you.

    • Robert Smith

      Apparently an American citizen supporting the American extreme right wing christian Talibon.

      Rob

      • wandamurline

        Freedom goes on both sides…yours as a nonbeliever and mine as a believer. Whether or not you believe this, Jesus loves you and you are missing a lot of things in your life without him. I am sorry you believe that we are some kind of Taliban…I hope that you see fit to check Jesus out before you leave this world. You may find happiness.

        • bob wire

          No mention was made of “non-belief” it was you that interjected the thought and word into the conversation.

          Opposition to some of your beliefs regarding personal liberties fails miserably to constitute any notions of non belief in the Divine Sir.

          • http://?? Joe H.

            bob,
            robbie has stated many times that he does not believe in God OR Jesus!! Don’t make it harder than it is!! I realize, of course to you it’s hard not to as it is the way of a progressive!!

      • LadyGreenEyes

        No, an American CITIZEN exercising their right to freedom of speech, and freedom OF religion. If that bothers you, feel free to MOVE. Don’t let the door hit you on the way out.

      • http://naver sook young

        Why do you say utter nonsense when the head progressive/liberal is a muslim and is out to destroy our beloved Constitution, along with taking away our rights? Are you getting paid to come here to this conservative blog site? You sure seem to have no knowledge on any subject posted by this site. Thank you.

        Sook Young
        Wife of the Samurai

    • Bus

      The child also sees the stupidity inherent within a school system that is charged with educating our youth….Is the situation hopeless, have we just become so stupid that we’ll cut our own throats to see what color the blood is??

    • Lost in Paradise

      Docmo, what is that??

    • bob wire

      “The most important thing here is that a child has seen what it means to be an American Citizen.”

      I seriously doubt if the child was much more then a pawn used by a grownup and understood little.

      • 45caliber

        bob:

        Don’t worry, it is nine years later. I’m sure that child knows exactly what is going on now.

        • bob wire

          No doubt, the parents will make it so.

          • Jay

            This really bothers you, doesn’t it bob? I find your extreme reaction so out of character. Is this the same bob wire that has always championed freedom?

          • bob wire

            No Jay, I’m not bothered at all nor do I feel threatened if you are asking. I’m enjoying this lively debate. It’s great fun and I believe important. I’m learning things, aren’t you? I hope so.

            There is good reason(s) for the separation of church and state and the founding father in their wisdom did not elaborate as to why. I find everyone take on the matter very interesting. I especially enjoy 45′s. While Jesus lived in different times, where any talk of installing God in government was very risky. In fact the very technicality used to bring him before judgment of P Pilot and hasten his demise. As rumors of a King and a Kingdom other the Rome and Cesar were not received well.

            Jesus was clear on his views of government encroachment into the church however and supports 45′s claim. One of the few recorded times he lost his cool as when he threw the money changers out of the temple of worship. Jesus was indeed offended this day and he was a difficult man to offend. Which would support part of 45′s claim if God and religion was viewed as being synonymous. Personally, I don’t and would enjoy hearing other views.

            So~oH! this opens up a whole new discussion. Is God and religion interchangeable? I say no! definitely not. What do you say? 45 is offering the debate that they are.

        • http://naver sook young

          45caliber and Jay are both right. Thank you.

          Sook Young
          Wife of the Samurai

  • iam

    My most disappointing day watching my child growing up was when I attended her school’s Christmas play, and watched for over an hour as they put on tumbling and circus acts. It had nothing to do with Christmas; no mention of the meaning of Christmas. That was in 1983, and I doubt that anything has changed since.

    • Lost in Paradise

      It has changed, as they can be expelled for the very mention of Christmas. What has happened to this country?? A kid cannot even go to school with “Old Glory” on his bike without being expelled.

      • bob wire

        So explain to us the connection between the birth of Jesus and Santa and the public school system. I’d like to better understand this connection and importance.

        • 45caliber

          bob:

          Why don’t you explain to us what it is wrong for a Christian to mention God and not for someone else to do it? If you don’t want your child to believe, then teach him differently but don’t insist that everyone else has to do things your way. The thing about freedom in our country is that everyone is supposed to have EQUAL freedom – not more for the atheists than for the Christians.

        • bob wire

          Certainly 45, glad to, just as soon as you answer my question first.

          and for the record, ~ this is not personal with me, it’s legal premise and conceptual. I am a very tolerant man. I love stories of Santa and the tooth fairy, Easter Bunny and respectful of the Divine.

          I can stand on this issue just like you might pretense of the Federal Reserve’s legality.

          • Jay

            Bob, you’re full of crap! This definitely bothers you, and it is most definitely personal. Why don’t you and your evil twin, Smith, both find a cave, and by all means, go and have your break-downs in private!

          • bob wire

            Why don’t you keep a civil tongue and level head and explain your position and quit trying to support your argument with intimidate?

            Where is the connection and importance in the public school system, birth of the Christ child and Santa?

  • hreed

    this is good and about time but why not on the 1st page so it will be seen.

  • Altaica

    Good to see freedom of speech and religion being upheld.

    • http://naver samurai

      This time I can agree with you. FOR GOD AND COUNTRY!

  • Ted Crawford

    First let me say that I, personally am a Diest, that being said, I’ve never understood why these people are so threatened by Christian beliefs! It makes no sense to me on many levels. First and most important, how can thay attempt to instill the belief that abhorrent sexually deviate behaviour is “normal”, while, at the same time, disallowing a persons right to believe in a Divine being! Secondly if they trully believe that God doesn’t exist, why the heck are they soooo very afraid of him!
    As someone pointed out earlier this is a great victory and a good lesson to these young people as to what this Country really stands for!

    • bob wire

      “I’ve never understood why these people are so threatened by Christian beliefs! It makes no sense to me on many levels. ”

      Hmm? explain it? Okay, you miss understand, they are not threatened by it but feel you need to take it home to you house as you might other personal habits and behaviors.

      • 45caliber

        If they are not threatened by it then they have no arguement at all.

        There are two types of atheists. There is a group who do not believe in religion. They ignore it and couldn’t care less if you believe since they believe you are wrong. Then there is the group who are afraid you are right and want you to convert to the Atheist religion. Most of those here belong to that religion.

        • bob wire

          Well 45, so you would not mind spending a day in a room full of Jerry Springer contestants then. Because I know you well enough to know you would not feel threatened.

      • Jay

        booo, bob wire! You have completely lost your intellectual balance. You’re so emotional right now i’m beginning to worry about you! Take a break, go take a walk, get some fresh air, and please, bring back the rational bob. We miss him!

        • bob wire

          That’s just your perception Jay and perhaps your desire as work. I don’t believe 45 would endure the company of clowns very long. I know for a fact that I couldn’t. I am particular about my surroundings and whom I am around. I am a man that knows my limitations in indulgence. I have an explosive nature and a short fuse. The difference between me and someone else is that ‘I know it’. I control myself and I know how to.(it took years to learn this)

          I don’t have to be threatened to be annoyed and agitated.

          Find the correct “word” Jay.

          • http://naver samurai

            I can endure what you have said, due to my serving for 20 years with the army. Would you include me on your Jerry Springer Show hypothesis? 하나님 하고 나라를 위해서! FOR GOD AND COUNTRY!

      • http://naver sook young

        Couldn’t the same thing be said about gays just taking their actions and beliefs home where they belong? Thank you.

        Sook Young
        Wife of the Samurai

      • Average Joe

        “Okay, you miss understand, they are not threatened by it but feel you need to take it home to you house as you might other personal habits and behaviors.”

        Explain to me what the difference is between you saying what you believe in …here in a public forum ….and that of those people that you don’t agree with….in a public place…is there a difference? Maybe you should heed your own advice? Remember, if you manage to silence one group of people…others may someday silence you in the same way.
        If you do not wish to talk about religion with someoone…don’t engage them. You are here…on a site that is disscussing religion, which you claim to not want to hear about..yet here you are, sticking you nose and your two cents into the frey …while crying that you don’t want to hear it…..(I must seriously have to consider that you may have mental stability issues Bob) If you don’t want to talk about something…why would you go out of your way…to engage in a conversation about the subject?….Simply ignore the site altogether (don’t go there)…don’t comment on the subject (if you do go to the site) and if someone approaches you on the street…tell them that you aren’t interested…and simply…walk away…how hard can that be? Once you comment, you have decided that you do want to talk about the subject….which means that you really do not have the values or beliefs that you claim to have.
        While we all have the right to say things that are not popular…we also have the right …not to listen to any views that we don’t like or agree with. We do not however have the right to silence those that we dissagree with, anymore than they have the right to silence us.
        Don’t like what others say?…Don’t listen, walk away…end of story….If you don’t like a TV program….do you call the station and demand that they change the program to suit you? or do you, like most people…simply turn the channel? Try uaing the thing on your shoulders for something other than a hatrack.

  • Glen Xx

    God save America, the schools sure won’t

    • bob wire

      Nor will God Glen, it is written.

      • http://naver sook young

        Can you tell me what book, chapter, and verse it says this in the Bible? Thank you.

        Sook Young
        Wife of the Samurai

        • bob wire

          There are many references Sook, here but a few. There will be not one stone on top of another by times time, but it won’t matter so be of good cheer. Enjoy the days, for they are numbered.

          The Olivet discourse or Olivet prophecy is a biblical passage found in the Synoptic Gospels of Mark 13, Matthew 24, Luke 21. It is known as the “Little Apocalypse” because it includes Jesus’ descriptions of the end times, the use of apocalyptic language, and Jesus’ warning to his followers that they will suffer tribulation and persecution before the ultimate triumph of the Kingdom of God.[1] The Olivet discourse is the last of the Five Discourses of Matthew and occurs just prior to the narrative of Jesus’ passion beginning with the Anointing of Jesus.

  • Robert Smith

    From Ted who asks: “I’ve never understood why these people are so threatened by Christian beliefs!”

    It’s not the christian beliefs that are the threat. It’s the people who abuse them and use the bible as a weapon to oppress others. If they kept it to themselves as most other religions do there would be on problems.

    When these over excited christians from places like “god hates fags” go a-marching in the faces of American heros who have died I take exception.

    When these over excited christians under the umbrella of RTL sniff between a woman’s legs and demand that she remain pregnant no matter what her belief is I take exception. At the same time they claim to be right to life they are denying health care to Americans who are dying for lack of health care.

    Want more examples? I got a bunch.
    Rob

    • Joyce from Loris

      There are some issues I totally agree with you, Robert. I do not believe that a group, ANY group, should be allowed to impose itself on family members trying to bury their loved one, while listening to idiots yell “God hates fags”. I am totally against abortion, but if a woman can live with killing her own baby, then that is her cross to bear. I, however, am absolutely OUTRAGED that my government can FORCE me to pay for it! I am a Christan, if you choose not to be, that’s fine with me. The problems always seem more massive because the GOVERNMENT chooses to stick their noses into it. Let fags be fags, let murderers be murderers, that is their choices. But the least of it, I should not be forced to UPHOLD IT WITH MY TAX DOLLARS.

    • Tim Orner

      I really feel sorry for you Mr. Smith. Not only do you have NO understanding of the Christian and the faith they believe, you are THE LIAR, that you pin on the Christian. In I Corinthians chapter 6 verse 9, GOD states; Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom od GOD? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor “HOMOSEXUALS”, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortiomers, will inherit the Kingdom of GOD. You see MR. Smith, GOD promised some three thousand years prior to the coming of Jesus Christ, that he would send himself [Jesus} to live a sinless exampled live, proved to those who wittnessed his works, and then layed down his life as “THE” sacrifice for “YOUR” sin, so that you would not have to spend eternity apart from the GOD that made you and loves you. GOD “DOES NOT” hate the homosexual. HE HATES homoseuallity. It is the ultimate slap of GOD’s face. He created man and woman for the continuation ot the human race. Isn’t this “common sense”? STOP spuing out what you think are christian beliefs, when you no NOTHING of the true Christian faith.

      • Mac

        Sorry, Tim, but you are lumping all Christians into one belief; there are a multitude of varying beliefs among the billions of Christians in the world, and yours is not the predominant one, based on what you have written. Maybe the predominant belief among contributors to this forum, but not predominant over all Christian beliefs.

        • http://naver samurai

          If it says these things in the Bible, then this is the way we must believe. No question. Point blank. No exceptions. You’re beginning to sound like a cino to me. FOR GOD AND COUNTRY!

      • Curtis S

        If your God created ‘everything’ why would He (or She) create homosexuality in the first place, if He (or She) hates it so much? Your God made a promise 3000 years ago? Ted? Tell me you’re not one of those people who believe the Earth is 6000 years old and that man co-existed with the dinosaur?

        • http://naver sook young

          He did not create anyone to be gay and you cannot prove that. Thank you.

          Sook Young
          Wife of the Samurai

          • Curtis S

            Well Sook, not only did your God create homosexual people, it would seem that your God created a lot of gay animals too.
            Here`s a link to a National Geographic story…
            http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2004/07/0722_040722_gayanimal.html

            Here`s a link to an Australian medical website…
            http://www.news-medical.net/news/2006/10/23/20718.aspx?page=2

            I know you`re going to find some way to discount this information, I`m just curious how you`re going to do it.

          • http://naver samurai

            Sorry dude, but since there is no gay gene, your theory falls flat on its face. Second, why do you idiots always talk about animals? Humans have the ability to think and reason about what is right and wrong, animals do not. Neeeeeed to quit posting lies about God. Gay is not genetic, but is a behavior. Behavior has nothing to do with DNA. DNA only deals with the physical aspect of the human body, you being a scientist should know this to be true. Neeeeeed to stop lying and supporting this false agende being forced onto the people. Thank God your kind is a dying breed. FOR GOD AND COUNTRY!

          • Curtis S

            Samurai… the existence of a gay gene is irrelevant. Homosexuality exists in humans and in animals. Therefore, by your logic, your God must have created it. But really, you need to stop clinging to the propaganda of a two thousand year old Jewish version of Aesop’s Fables and expand your mind. Think for yourself… open your mind and explore new possibilities, lose that military mentality and stop taking orders, you have free will, use it.

          • http://naver samurai

            First, yes there are people that are gay. I cannot deny their immoral lifestyle. Second, like my wife and I have posted before that comparing what goes on in the animal kingdom and what goes on with humans are very different. We have the ability to think and reason, but animals do not. We know good and evil, moral and immoral, ethical and unethical, but animals do not. Ergo, you are comparing two different subject that are not related to each other in any way, shape, or form. This is an old arguement and has already been dismissed many times on this site and in the academia. Third, you say that if I believe a certain way then I should believe God created people gay. What utter nonsense is that? Why would God create people gay, when being gay and living their perverse lifestyle is a sin in God’s eyes? To do such is punishable by hellfire and brimstone. It would not be logical for God to create people gay if it is wrong according to His will. Sorry son, but I don’t have to expand my mind to the ways you atheists do. Science cannot explain being gay, due to homosexuality being a behavior. Science only covers the physical universe. What we can see, hear, touch, taste, and smell. Why do you always fly the science banner, when 90% of all the science we know today was discovered or invented by Christians? As far as my military mind goes, if you have done something for a good part of your life it becomes part of you. No matter how long you live. I guess that acting as a gentleman, being professional at work, standing up straight when you walk (Not slouching like many civilians do), and believing in God and country are bad things to you. Why is it you atheists are affraid of God and only live your lives in guilt, anger, and depression? Though I have looked at your sites you have posted to my wife, but to no avail. Neeeeed to do better than the same old lies told time and time again.

            If a man lieth with another man, as he would with a woman, let him die the death. Leviticus 20:13

            I do not advocate killing people, that part of me is gone, but I say that it is God that will have them die in some way, shape, or form. This is the best answers I could come up with for the little time I have to post. FOR GOD AND COUNTRY!

      • LadyGreenEyes

        Well said, Tim.

      • bob wire

        “I really feel sorry for you Mr. Smith. Not only do you have NO understanding of the Christian and the faith they believe, you are THE LIAR,

        that you pin on the Christian. In I Corinthians chapter 6 verse 9, GOD states; Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom od GOD? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor “HOMOSEXUALS”, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortiomers, will inherit the Kingdom of GOD. You see MR. Smith, GOD promised some three thousand years prior to the coming of Jesus Christ,”

        “Judge ye no, less ye be judged”

      • http://naver samurai

        100% agree, fellow patriot! FOR GOD AND COUNTRY!

    • alex

      talk about sniffing between a woman’s legs i think you have your head between your legs but a little further back

    • Patriot II

      Robert,

      Christians are sinners. I am one, Please feel free to chastise me all you want, because I admit it and you have the freedom to do so, by the Constitution which was created by Athiests? , oops NO, ……………..it was created by what type of people Robert?

      Yes you are right, other Sinners like me. I’m gland we have you here to set us all straight, without people like you (perfect people) we sinners would have nothing to keep us busy!

      • bob wire

        Robert has never suggested that he was perfect, ~

        He merely question your right to take advantage of a captive audience in a public place and subject him to your personal beliefs. And for this, self proclaiming Christians call him names and attack him. A behavior few loyal Christians act out as they know this is not the way of Christ, as Christ walked by faith and not by sight.

        Wide is the path and narrow is the way, Robert’s path will be Roberts path, if he stumbles so let it be. But it is not for Christian to force people to drink from the well of life on any level.

        • Patriot II

          You are asking for Tolerance, and silence. Tolerance is Wrong and the very reason we got here (to this depraved and Sinfull Nation). We are to be the “Salt” of the earth, not to roll over and play dead.

          • bob wire

            Soo? who might “We” be? You and who else?

            What happen to “Love thy enemy as thy self”? What happened to “judge ye not less you be judge”? What happen to “bear not false witness”?

            It’s only when you can do these things that you “might” be given authority over others.

          • bob wire

            I only ask you to practice the gospels, accept the mortality of man and to understand that you are much more.

            To be “offended” is a personal choice and one rooted in weakness.

            Jesus was a man and very few times was he ever “offended”. If you have the power of the almighty in your pocket offers anyone a huge level of confidence. What others think, say and do means little if you hold faithful in the Lord God Almighty.

            Allow the spirit into your heart and such matters melt away. It was never intended for man to be a tax master for the Lord.

            I’m speaking inside your reference to the Divine.

            We might see the turtle crawling slowly across a busy highway and think! That turtle is going to be road pizza! So we stop and interfere in his destiny and take him home where the dog eats him. Or we set him safely on the other side of the road and he gets upset with your interference and attempts to cross back across the busy highway and get squished as he makes it half way.

            The point is, when we set ourselves up as gods without the solid rock core faith in the Divine that we borrow our strength from to command the moment, we are simply playing God and the road to hell is paved with good intentions.

            Christian are suppose to lead by example. An example that makes people wonder what have you have got that they would like a part of in their life. They want your happiness, your joy , your success, your peace of mind.

            Written laws of man will never produce the results you seem to want.

          • http://naver sook young

            “Tolerance is the final virtue of a dying society.”

            Aristotle

          • bob wire

            “Tolerance is the final virtue of a dying society.”

            Aristotle
            ~~~~~~~~~~~~
            So what does that mean to you Sook?

            as all society’s die

            man is not immortal

          • http://naver samurai

            Thanks for saying that we are dead or dying bob. We are far from dead. We just need to get back to the ways we were founded by our Christian founding fathers and go by the Constitution in everything. FOR GOD AND COUNTRY!

        • http://?? Joe H.

          bob,
          Captive audience??? not hardly! check the attendance records of most innercity schools or even a lot of suburban schools!! Please don’t make it sound like the Christians are kidnapping your offspring!! you need to remember the K.I.S.S. program you learned in service!!!

          • bob wire

            Hmm? I don’t remember anything of that name Joe, sorry.

          • http://naver samurai

            Sheesh bob, don’t you remember keep it simple stupid? FOR GOD AND COUNTRY!

    • Patrick

      And who exactly is dieing for lack of health care in America? Nobody,that’s who,please climb back under your left-wing rock and leave the rest of us alone…

      • bob wire

        How Christian of you. You are a shinning example of the nature of the discussion.

        • http://naver sook young

          You sound like Robert Smith. Thank you.

          Sook Young
          Wife of the Samurai

        • bob wire

          Well, I certainly am not attempting to be like anyone. I’m offering debate that you seem to oppose yet refuse to argue with anything other then your bible Sooky.

          • http://naver samurai

            Remember bob, the Bible and Christianity are related. As Christianity and it’s beliefs come from the Bible and believing in Jesus. Ergo, your part of attacking my wife has just fallen flat on it’s face. FOR GOD AND COUNTRY!

            P.S. It is also what was used for the founding of this country and a basis for the Constitution.

    • LadyGreenEyes

      Get some facts, Robert. The WBC is NOT a Christian group, first off, but a single-family cult. Second, it isn’t Christians attacking others, but the very people you accuse Christians of attacking. The gays that deface churches, threaten people, kill kids in their care (like the case in Florida), walk around nearly naked in parades, and believe they can shove their perverted, mentally ill lifestyle down the throat of the nation. It’s clear now what your goal is here; nothing but a troll for the gay community. Well, you can get back under the bridge now. Real Americans understand what freedom means.

      • bob wire

        Hmm? perversion! Well there little question that perversion exist on many levels though out human society.

        But this notion that Christian should have final say as to what constitutes perversion might well be at the root of this discussion.

        Growing up in a Christan home, we were not allowed to tap our foot to music, for we all know in short time we find the rhythm transmitted to the hips and then here come the devil himself. We might break out in dance and laughter!

        The dominion of Church of Christ believe, they are the practicing purist and everyone else is going to hell. It’s quite comical really. ~

        If you wish to use scripture only to support your beliefs, it’s possible for a person to feel justified in anything they might wish to do. As for somewhere in your bible it will be written.

        This attempt to force people to Christ and do it your way is like trying to nailing jello to a tree.

        Even Christian kills Christian over small details for their beliefs. It is one wonder we have not believers.

        • LadyGreenEyes

          Bob, one particular misguided church is NOT representative of the whole, nor does that one make all Christians just like them. Besides which, this is about freedom OF religion, not from. Sometimes, people can get carried away, but parents still have every right to raise their kids as they see fit, short of actual abuse. No foot tapping is extreme, in my opinion (and I grew up Southern Baptist), but that doesn’t make Christianity a bad thing. What it is really about is the person and their PERSONAL relationship with Jesus, not about what some organized local church thinks. People can, and do, mess things up. Read the Bible for yourself, listen to what God tells you, and go from there. From what I have heard, Church of Christ is very controlling. NOT representative of all churches, though. Just don’t blame God for the failings of His children. he didn’t die for us because we were perfect, but because we are sinful. Saved means forgiven, not infallible.

          • bob wire

            “What it is really about is the person and their PERSONAL relationship with Jesus, not about what some organized local church thinks.”

            Thank you Green eyes lady, you just make my point, It’s personal and not public and as such should be treated as private.

            It is the zeal of the evangelical arm of the Christian faith that feel it has a mandate from God to impose Christianity. ~ ANYWAY THEY CAN! If it means interfering with Government and passing civil and criminal laws to do it. Which is okay but only to a point. Left to run a muck without any resistance the church would take over government completely.

        • Jay

          I too, grew up in a Christian home bob, and it was nothing like your experience. Mine was a life full of positive affirmation, great education, travel, fun and laughter. I feel sad that you had the opposite experience, but not all Christian homes are as you mentioned. You should not punish all Christians for your unfortunate experience. You do realize you are projecting?

          • bob wire

            It wasn’t so bad Jay, a little stiff perhaps, we had Wednesday night ice cream suppers, where we all gathered at someone farm house and churned Ice Cream or cut open a dozen field melons. A mess of us kids would play Annie -Over, or Hide and Seek till well after dark, making for a big day.

            We had box suppers, where the girls would prepare a basket lunch then us guys would bid in on them blind in auction style. There was vacation bible school and kool aid and always at every occasion bible study, Old & New, chapter and verse.

            No dancing of course, public swimming was limited, women just didn’t wear shorts much less bathing suits. But at least there was no snake handling or getting the spirit on you and flopping around like a headless chicken.

            I gave it up at 14 when the family refused to let me play Little League Ball as it interfered with Wednesday night service. All my younger years, older boys were all I had to play with,so by 14 I could handle some serious heat. It was the only thing I excelled at and was devastated. I wanted to be a hero and be admired for something! By 15, I left home and didn’t return to church for some 30 years. I spend that 30 years doing many things, learning exactly who me and the Divine were and what “it” all meant was my crowning achievement but many more soon followed. If anyone can even manage get the Divine really working for you, to be in your corner, on your side, life can really be sweet.

            You don’t have to worry with decisions, they are made for you. There is a lot to these few words, it’s just to simple to understand and harder still to keep clear in your mind.

            Let go, let God

          • bob wire

            projecting? Hmm? yes,~ I think so. I’m attempting to defending people rights and questioning peoples rights.

          • http://naver sook young

            My home is a loving, Christian home and everyone is welcome. Growing up, there was no Christianity in my house. My mother, father, grandmother, and youngest sister are Buddhist and my other sister is an atheist. I found God and Jesus when I first came to UC Berkley to study. A year later, I met my husband Samurai. We have had our good and bad times, but God and Jesus have brought us this far and will continue to help us through our lives. Thank you.

            Sook Young
            Wife of the Samurai

          • bob wire

            That is good Sook, ~ however you get there, just get there.

            Practicing a faith that actually works for you and puts joy in your life, love in your heart and success in your endeavors is just some of the things God offers everyone.

            But you have to submit and surrender to his will and let go of yours. That the price one pays regardless of what you wish to call yourself.

        • http://?? Joe H.

          bob,
          I grew up in a christian home and it was nothing like that!! My father was a deacon in the First Baptist church of Adrian Michigan and he was a very tolerant yet firm man! We grew up with a love for music as a gift from God. My Dad used to pick on me about my choice of music, but he always said i had a mind, given to me by the Lord to know what was right and wrong and that was all he ever said! Just because you had an intolerant Christian upbringing, does not mean every Christian is like that! Remember, K.I.S.S.!!!!

    • 45caliber

      ALL religions want you to convert if they are good people. They want to share salvation with you. The problem is that you belong to the Atheist Religion and are trying to convert others to your religion by denying them the right to worship as they wish. If you truly didn’t believe, you wouldn’t be insisting you are right. You simply wouldn’t care one way or the other. I hope you enjoy your religion but we don’t need you preaching it here.

      • bob wire

        There is no atheist religion. Atheist don’t believe in God and God don’t believe in atheist. In case of any ties, I’ll place my bet on God.

        and no one is denying people to believe what they wish to believe.

        If you want to handle snakes in worship service, or stick your butt up in the air on your magic carpet, or speak in tongues or flop around in the floor, or sit and quiver ~or just chant praise the Glory on high, go home and do it.

        Is that too much to ask? People are asking for the option to be exposed to Your Brand.

        • Jay

          Hey bob, where’s the ACLU when you need them, hey? If i were you i would personally give them a call, and give them a “what for”! LOL!

          • http://?? Joe H.

            Jay,
            just for Brother Bob, above you, I’ll give that a big AMEN, BROTHER!!!

  • Tim Orner

    The reason so called athiests are “afraid” of the mention of the Christian GOD, is because they can not totally subdue their GOD given conscience. Athiests know that their whole belief system is self refutting. You can NOT have creation without a creator. You can take any “theory” you want, and the final result will ALWAYS be that a creator was “necessary” for the existence of this universe. The real issue athiests face, stems from the fact that man is a sinner, and man has NEVER wanted any God to have authority over him. The idea that man is subject to an authority that he must answer to, the athiest doesn’t want to admit to.

    • Curtis S

      Tim… your argument isn’t very strong nor is it very credible. You can’t have creation without a creator? That’s very clever wordplay, but nothing more. Am I a god because I strike a match and create fire? To create fire, three things are required: heat, fuel and oxygen, but lightning, a dry forest and air can create a fire as a random event, it is “creation” without a sentient, conscious or intentional “creator”. Life can be created much the same way.

      My atheism is not a belief system… it is the absence of a need to believe. Science has proven and continues to prove that our existence does not require a supreme being. (Science has also proven much of the Bible as false as well.)
      Furthermore, I don’t need a God as an authority figure. I am not a child anymore and my parents taught me right and wrong. I am accountable to myself and my fellow beings, and this responsibility is in the here and now, not in the afterlife. Too many people ‘need’ their God and the threat of eternal punishment to make them do the right thing. The truly mature adults know in their heads and in their hearts what is good and what is evil without the threats of an imaginary “father” figure.

      • http://naver sook young

        No, no, no, Curtis S, you lie. You tell me where has science proven the Bible wrong? This is your first lie. You say that God is imaginary? This is another lie. Anyone who relies on science has a closed mind. Since science only deals with the physical aspect of things (What we can see, hear, touch, taste, and smell.), there is no possible way can science even begin to explain God or Jesus. Please stop spreading your lies on this site. It is people like you that are kepping this country very polarized. Thank you.

        Sook Young
        Wife of the Samurai

      • Karolyn

        EVERYBODY innately knows right from wrong unless they have a mental disorder. However, religion and the Bible are a control mechanisms.

        • http://naver samurai

          I’ll agree with you that people are taught right from wrong, but you neeeeed to cite a source that shows the Bible and Christianity are control mechinisms. Don’t let me hear cricket chirping in the background. FOR GOD AND COUNTRY!

    • 45caliber

      Tim:

      The problem with those who believe the Atheist Religion (as recognized by the government if they wish to argue) is that they want to do whatever they wish without some God telling them they are wrong. They hope by denying a God exists that they can kill God – so they want everyone else to deny God as well. They are afraid of the afterlife if God does exist.

      Sad, isn’t it?

      • Karolyn

        45 – How can you know this?

  • Joyce from Loris

    Nine years? It took nine years???? I knew our judicial system was lacking, but please, NINE YEARS?

    • Mac

      It was just under seven years, not nine years; December 2004, when the case was originally filed in court. Still a long time, but let’s be accurate, okay?

      • Lost in Paradise

        Yes that is very important isn’t it. LOL

  • Raggs

    If you are a born citizen of this country you have ALL rights from the moment of your birth no exceptions! And for a communist far leftwing radical school system to tell their students otherwise is a DISGRACE to our country and that school should be closed..

    • alex

      to do that you would have to close all public schools

      • Raggs

        alex.. The problem here is that the far left and the government want people to believe that our rights come from the government… This is what is being taught in our schools as well it is called indoctrination.. Now how many public schools that you are aware of that does not do this?

      • Diana

        It is hard to believe that the first schools in this nation were all basically started by the churches and the Bible was the first text book. Even our first Universities (Yale, Princeton, Columbia, Harvard) were started by religious groups.

      • Patriot II

        Good Idea Alex, lets close all of them, Purge the Federal money out, and start totally over with the Parents in Control.

      • 45caliber

        alex:

        No, just kick the government out and let the locals run the school as it was meant to be.

    • eddie47d

      Well Raggs you did get your first sentence right and I’m proud of you. Now will you please practice what your preach. Thank You. I assume you mean all babies such as Muslim babies and immigrant babies also.No exceptions right? Your second sentence put you back in the toilet but at least you are taking “baby steps” in improving.

      • http://naver sook young

        All American citizens have rights under our Constitution, but immigrants (legal and illegal) do not. You must be an American to have all your rights as written in the Constitution. Before I could not vote, bear arms, collect social security, and many others. Raggs may be forward in his language, but he is right about having to be an American. Thank you.

        Sook Young
        Wife of the Samurai

  • B. Hill

    I remember years ago back in 1966. I was 16 years old and attending the High School for my first year. One of my five sisters was 12 YO at the time and attending Jr. High School.

    She came home crying because a teacher of hers slapped her in the face for making a remark about his tie. I don’t remember what she said to him, but I do remember what my 4 brothers and I did.

    We took off immediately from the house and ran down to the Jr. High School, looking for this teacher. We knew what we were going to do to this teacher.

    I realize we lived in the John Wayne days then and nobody was going to do something like that and get away with it. Fast forwarding life to today, 2011, 46 years have past, but today people feel free to do these things because they are not made to take accountability for their actions, like in this case with the authorities not penalizing this school for their actions against these children.

    • Patriot II

      So Bill, what happened, did you find him, did you Kick his Butt?

  • B. Hill

    It must be noted that Deism has been defined as the religion in which God abandoned the creation.

    Not true! I pity anyone who thinks that a massively, enormous God, who created the universe and all that is in it, made it and then left on a permanent vacation.

    People who believe in Deism build this convenient excuse to deny that God exists so they don’t have to make a decision for the truth. They repudiate any teaching from God’s word,(the bible) and go on to see God in nature, such as animals, leaves, trees, mountains, etc., etc.

    God created all these things so man could enjoy them, but God is very present in everyday life and wants to be a part of anyone who would be willing to accept Him for what He did for them, that being sending His only begotten son to die on the cross to pay the ransom for their sins.

    One of my favorite verses is found in Hebrew 11:6…For without faith, it is impossible to please Him, for those who come to Him, must believe that He is (real and alive) and that He is a rewarder of those to seek His face.

    If one does not have faith and believe that God exists and will reward you for your belief…then one has nothing! God does not show Himself to those who display unbelief in their lives.

    • Mac

      Illogical argument. The definition of Deism does NOT deny the existence of God, as you clearly stated it, but then you go on to say they don’t believe in God. Learn to think straight.

    • Jim

      There are 2 rights here. One is the RIGHT for people to say and do what they will as long as it doesn’t hurt others.
      The other is the RIGHT for people to disagree with the other person or ignore what is said or done.
      Neither should be discerned as treading on the others rights.
      The RIGHT TO CHOOSE is the basic right. Without it all other rights will not exist. Those in charge should not have the power or authority to say what should or should not be done unless it is spelled out in the rules and policies of the organization.
      People cannot know who does or does not agree with them until something is said or done to show that. There are people who hand out religious literature all the time. All a person has to do is say no and leave. It is not up to courts or people to say what we can or cannot do in our personal lives – as long as what we do is not against the law!
      We have always had choice. We have the choice to choose our leaders. If they take that choice away we will no longer have a republic but an anarchy (or worse).

  • Larry Pierson

    Good news, too bad the liberals didn’t get punished in the process. Just a single instance of that happening will end a lot of this kind of nonsense. So long as they feel secure knowing they won’t get punished for violating their oaths to the Constitution, the assaults on our liberties will continue.

  • LAYTON SONERHOLM

    To have a creation you have to have a creator go out side and look at the trees the green field’s every where you look u see Gods creation then God placed birds in the air sea life in the ocean the animal species 0n the earth the human race to enjoy it then Jesus the greatest gift of all open your eyes the time is short

    • Jim

      I grew up on a small dairy farm and know that the earth and everything on it are too complex to have been created by accident. We are all dependent on other things for our lives and everything we have. How could everything have been made by accident so that would happen? Everything trying to explain that are only THEORIES! No matter what is dug up nothing proves evolution. It is a theory advanced by a MAN.
      Walt G Being a Christian is first believing in Christ. Then sharing your beliefs with others.
      You’re right about the expression Mac. wonder if it was posed. Sure looks it.

  • Cep

    ITs no wonder public schools are in trouble.after all its a free Country,Ans there are a lot of people who have gotten tired of the things that go there and started teaching their childern at home.

  • Walt G

    I’ve heard a number of times in my life-time, that if Christians would just keep their religion’s ideas to them selves, they would not be viewed as obnoxious. One liberal had so much gall to tell me that Christ’s execution was his own fault, because he would not keep his mouth shut and his opinions to himself!
    Actually, being a Christian IS being a messenger. The time when Christ left this earth, he commissioned the disciples to be preachers and teachers of others who might take and interest. In his own words, to “search out the deserving ones.” Not to force it on any who object, but to simply search out any who are spiritually hungry, and demonstrate that they deserve to hear about the way to serve God through Christ. Anyone not liking that, well, OK. Your choice. We’ll see you another time.
    If we were to do less, Or simply keep what we know to ourselves, then, based on the principle of the watchman’s duty, we might be found guilty of spiritual murder in The Judgment.

  • Mac

    The expression on the face of that little girl illustrating this article is a prime example of what many people including me object to in “expression of religion.” That is the most disgusting ‘holier than thou’ expression I have seen in years. I am NOT an atheist.

    • Raggs

      If that little girl praying offends you than you most definitely NOT a christian so that leaves you statement of your disgust to be that of an ATHIEST.

    • lord_leclerc

      And yet, the picture is almost certainly staged so she might well have been directed to look like that.

      I do agree with you, however, that the attitude of many self-proclaimed Christians toward unbelievers is very much a ‘Holier than thou’ approach that typifies the behavior of the Pharisees of New Testament infamy. I confess that I struggled with this behavior myself before I matured and realized that I’m no better than anyone else.

    • http://naver sook young

      What is wrong with her praying? How is this holier than thou? You don’t sound too much like a Christian. Thank you.

      Sook Young
      Wife of the Samurai

  • Gareth Ellzey

    As I understand it, the Bill of Rights (First Amendment to the Constitution) states: “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof…” In the day, there was in England, a State Religion, since Henry VIII declared himself the head of the Church of England (1532 or thereabouts, as I recall). Our forefathers were concerned NOT to PROHIBIT (see the second clause above) the exercise of religion, but to make sure that no one enforced a religion on others. The enforcement part did not preclude the practice part. So be you whatever flavor of Christian, Muslim, Jew, Buddhist, Scientologist (my personal religion), Hindu, Wiccan, or Atheist, you have the RIGHT, by the First Amendment, to PRACTICE your religion. You cannot shove it down another’s neck, but proselytizing is part of the practice of nearly all faiths (obviously including atheism!). So let kids pass out candy canes with Jesus is the reason for the season; write religious messages on their Christmas cards, and otherwise show their faith. Not permitting such activities is unConstitutional. QED

    • LadyGreenEyes

      Flawless argument!

  • sheldon

    First I must admit that I am an atheist. If a child offered me or one of my sons a candy cane or a pencil with the word “Jesus” on it or tickets to a Christian play… I know exactly what I would do and exactly what I would tell my kids to do… say “Thank You” and accept the gift with the spirit in which it was given.

    I find “Holier-than-thou” atheists sadly ironic and just plain sad.

    • Karolyn

      And might I add, taking themselves too seriously. Actually, I believe everyone takes themselves too seriously.

      • http://naver samurai

        Voice of experience? FOR GOD AND COUNTRY!

  • cae

    Just another horrific example of the attempt to destroy religious beliefs by this government. When I grew up we celebrated Christmas and the Jewish holiday both at school..we started our day with the pledge and started assembly each week with a bible reading and were excused an hour early on Weds for relgious instruction in our faiths.
    Now when you shop at Christmas time store employers are forced to wish you a happy holiday..I just smile and say thank you and a very Merry Christmas to you and your family….no one will ever make me stop saying that or take my beliefs away from me. As a matter of fact I was not overly religious but now that my religious beliefs are under attack I have taken to wearing a cross and wear it proudly for all to see each and every day:}

  • Curtis S

    Your beliefs aren’t under attack… your arrogance is. Not everyone celebrates Christmas… so at the risk of not offending anybody Happy Holidays is used, just in case the shopper is Jewish, Muslim, Baha’i, Buddist, Atheist or other. Just because Merry Christmas isn’t the default “season greeting” doesn’t mean you’re under attack… it just means everyone else isn’t under the tyranny of the majority.

    • LadyGreenEyes

      There is no right to not be offended by the beliefs of others. Everyone, employees, children at school, teachers, military, everyone, has a RIGHT to tell someone Merry Christmas, if they want to. If someone is offended, then they are the one with a problem. The way it’s been in this country lately, everyone BUT Christians s allowed to say and do whatever they want, while Christians are treated like criminals. That, sir, is NOT what freedom means. Not, however, unexpected. Christians understand that there will be persecution. That we will be attacked for His name’s sake. Be aware, this increase in such attacks is a sign of the end times. Hope you know where you stand.

      • Curtis S

        You are skewered by your own argument. You say “…everyone, has a RIGHT to tell someone Merry Christmas, if they want to. If someone is offended, then they are the one with a problem.”
        But under the right of free speech, if we substitute the phrase “Merry Christmas” with “Happy Holidays” or “Season’s Greetings” then suddenly it’s an attack on Christians… it’s a war on Christmas… it a sign of the end of times. What a double standard! What a hypocrite you are and sadly you don’t even realize the folly of your own argument. Do I know where I stand? As far away from you as possible.

        • LadyGreenEyes

          Wrong, as usual. The point is, people – students, employees, etc. – were told they were not ALLOWED to say “Merry Christmas”. That, Curtis, IS an attack. You know this, too. Pretending otherwise isn’t very honest. An employee of a store should not be threatened with termination for saying “Merry Christmas” to a patron of the store. A student should not be threatened with expulsion/suspension/lower grade/etc for saying “Merry Christmas”. THAT is the attack. Please, do stand very far away. The stench of dishonesty isn’t very pleasant.

          • libertytrain

            I don’t mind what people say,i.e. Merry Christmas, Happy Christmas, Happy Holidays…. I do mind when people are verboten from saying Merry Christmas. That’s not freedom of speech….

          • http://?? Joe H.

            LadyGreenEyes & Libertytrain,
            there in stands the great expanse that curtis doesn’t understand!! To think he thinks that a little 5 year old comming up to him with a candy cane with the words Merry Christmas on it is an attack!! I’ll bet he has real nightmares about those vienna boys choir!!!

          • http://naver sook young

            Actually there is a war being waged against Christmas. It may not be by passing out candy or cards, but couldn’t only observing human reasoning and materialism be an attack also? Curtis S is a lost soul that I’ll have to pray for. Thank you.

            Sook Young
            Wife of the Samurai

    • Rebecca Fahlin

      Why is it when it comes to Merry Christmas it is being arogrant if you want to say it because not everyone is a Christian so we should be happy to say Happy Holiday (By the way Holiday means Holy Day)? Would you say that Happy Hannukkah should be changed to Happy Holiday because not everyone is Jewish or Have a Blessed Ramadan be changed to Happy Holiday because not everyone is Muslim?

  • newspooner

    Tolerance is fine, but insistence for coerced approval is bigotry.

    • Patriot II

      Newspooner,

      I beleive Tolerance is Bad, it is the reason why we are such a Sinfull Nation Now. We have “Tolerated” ourselves to this point.

      Not good!

      • Gareth Ellzey

        There is a difference between ‘tolerance’ and condoning evil. Tolerance is allowing others to exercise their God-given, Constitution-ensured rights of freedom of speech and freedom of religion, among others, including their religious practices (that don’t infringe on OTHERS’ rights – I certainly do NOT tolerate true bloody sacrifices, even though the Christian belief that Christ was a ‘true, perfect and sufficient sacrifice’ in a very cruel and bloody manner is based on the idea that another took upon HIMSELF the sins of all and became the perfect ‘scapegoat’ is BASED on the idea of human, or Divine sacrifice)! We as a humane society should not condone suicide bombers, satanic practices that involve murder, rape and ritual killings of people or animals, or honor killings to assuage some barbaric idea that women are inferior (NOT confined, I may add to the Middle East. Women did not get the vote in the USA till 1922!). But tolerating others’ BELIEFS, while not condoning others’ inhumane ACTIONS, is a very different situation. I do not care if a worshipper bows to Mecca six times a day, or celebrates Samhain (Halloween) and Beltane (Mayday), or chews peyote to induce visions in a kiwi, or goes to Mass 3 times a week, or – you get the idea. I do care if that someone tries to FORCE (not politely asks or tries to persuade, GENTLY AND POLITELY) any or everyone else to do exactly like themselves. And that includes persons who, claiming there is no God, insist that others not believe in Him, on pain of being ‘offended.’

  • Laura

    You know i am soooooooo sick of all this. None of this should even be in question This is the GREAT, BRAVE, and BEAUTIFUL United States of America. We are a capitalist Country, a free market Country, and freedoms of all kinds Country. And to have the balls to twist and turn around everything about our greater Country and actually get away with it is just plain disgusting. But you know what’s funny the joke is on them cause our great Country we call America will prevail and they will be running scare cause our laws will be coming after them.

  • Desert Rat

    People need to READ & STUDY U.S. history!

    We are Constitutionally protected from the establishment of a FEDERAL RELIGION. Actually the states DO have the right under the U.S. Constitution to establish an official STATE RELIGION and a couple states did do that for a short time!

    State Constitutions were written or amended to prohibit establishment of an official church or religion.

    But NO WHERE is anyone given any Constitutional protection FROM religion!

    It is my view that suppressing all expressions of religious faith, all displays of religions, is unconstitutional.

    A parent has the right to teach their own child how they want the child to live life, including the parents’ religious beliefs. The child will have the authority to accept or reject those teachings when they mature.

    I believe the children written about in the article above were most likely just sharing a nice little gift with their friends. The children never guessed they would be accused of ~gasp!~ practicing a religion. That it was ~Give me some oxygen!~ CHRISTIANITY served to make it an almost criminal offense!

    • bob wire

      I concur with you on that note Desert Rat, much to do about nothing, but it did stir up lively debate and brought a few things forward we should be aware of.

      1. Our views are not shared by all

      2. Some Christians truly believe they are under siege.

      3. Some people think that religion and God are synonymous and interchangeable.

      4. Few can discuss the topic without reference to scripture.

      5. Hmm?~To question a self proclaimed Christian make you the devil.

      6. That the connection between God and man is on a personal level but there this desire to make it public.

    • James

      Desert Rat, The First Amendment reads in pertinent part: “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof.”
      It a restriction on the Legislative Branch of the federal government, from maaking any law concerning religious establishments. However, it does not prevent Congress from opening sessions with a pledge to the Flag, which contains ‘under God,’ or a prayer asking for His guidance.
      The First Amendment has nothing to do with the States.

  • Gringo Infidel

    AMEN!

    What is sad is that it took a Court ruling. We must be vigilant, however, for this still great evil in our world. We must resist it always & defend what is right.

    God bless

  • http://TimeMarches J Queen

    There are several people that get their kicks logging on to web blogs and ranting, continually changing their attacks and being or playing Devil’s advocate. Some few have mental disorders; lack of open-mindedness; others raised by or influenced by biased, radical people; some just bored, and others just want the attention. But some comments causes me to wonder if a CIA agitator or progressive has been hired to agitate. Sure been lots of folks agitating against freedom of speech since the last Washington turnover. I’ve never seen so much petty bickering, name calling and lack of tolerance. Don’t respond to, or reward bad behavior. American was established as a Christian country with Freedom of Speech and Religion. No good comes of arguing with a closed mind or speaking from a closed mind. None of us know everything and are right all the time. Get over it, go on with the discussion and quit rising to agitators taunts. Big waste of time, Karma gets us all in the end. Stick to topic and quit going off on rants and defensiveness. To each his own.

    • Rebecca Fahlin

      Well said J. Queen!

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