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Community Vs. Collectivism

June 19, 2012 by  

Community Vs. Collectivism
PHOTOS.COM
Collectivism is an inadequate substitute for true community.

Tyranny thrives by feeding on human necessity. It examines what sustains us, what we hope for, what we desire and what we love, and it uses those needs as leverage against us.

If you want safety, tyrants will take it away and barter it back to you at a steep price. If you want to raise a family, then you must accept the state as a part-time parent. If you want independence, then you are simply labeled as a threat and done away with altogether. Autocratic rulers are first and foremost salesmen; they convince us that life itself has a cost, that we are born indebted and that all bills must be made payable to the establishment. First and foremost, we are sold on the idea that in all of this, we are ultimately alone.

It is within these manipulated concepts of cost and isolation that we discover the foundation of all totalitarian cultures: collectivism.

Collectivism is a psychological prison derived from a beneficial instinct as old as humanity itself: the instinct to connect with others, to share experiences and knowledge, to build and create together. It is an instinct as essential to our survival as breathing. Collectivism uses this instinct as a weapon. It is a corrupted and poisoned harnessing of our intuitive nature. It is an inadequate and cancerous substitute for something that normally invigorates and supports healthy culture: true community.

In this age, our ideas of what constitutes “community” have been tainted and confused with the propaganda of collectivists. Our instincts tell us that the world we have been presented is hollow, while our controlled environment tells us that the world is just as it should be (or the best we’re going to get, anyway). How then, are we to tell the difference between natural community and destabilizing and destructive collectivism?

Common Aspects Of Collectivism

Looking back at the single-minded and highly dominating collectivist experiments of the past, it is easy to see the common threads between them. Certain methods are always present. Certain actions are always taken. Certain beliefs are always adopted. Here are just a few:

The Blank Slate: In order for the state to elevate itself in importance above the individual, it must first promote the idea that the individual does not exist, that your uniqueness or inherent character are only a byproduct of your environment. There are many methods to propagating this mindset. Junk science and establishment psychological theorists often treat the human mind as a mere bundle of chemicals and synapses.

Existentialism attacks individualism from the philosophical end, suggesting that all actions and reactions are random results of a purely chaotic universe, while at the same time peddling moral relativism and apathy.

Religious organizations that choose to abuse their positions of trust also feed collectivism by standing in the way of personal awareness, or even making it taboo to value the individual over the collective (though people tend to wrongly blame the concept of religion itself, rather than the corrupt men who sometimes misuse it).

Each one of these tactics is a tool in the arsenal of collectivists meant to degrade our social admiration for individual thought. Yet as desperate as elitists have been through the years to build an environment devoid of independent thought, they have met only with failure.

Centralization Instead Of Cooperation: Cooperation in society is often spontaneous and dependent on a number of underlying factors working together at the right place and at the right time. It takes a noble endeavor and even more noble leadership to inspire the masses to step onto the same path toward the same direction. This is why legitimate, large-scale cooperation is so venerated in the annals of history; such events are truly rare and miraculous. Tyrants and elitists have no endeavors that rank as “noble.” They serve only their own interests. So, instead of trying to encourage cooperation they won’t receive, they centralize various systems by coercion. If you can’t convince the public to abandon their own paths for yours, then forcefully remove all paths until the people have only one choice left.

Economic centralization is very indicative of this maneuver. While we in the liberty movement see a whole spectrum of possible options for markets and trade, many other people see only what is right in front of them: the same crooked fiat money system controlled by the same gaggle
of fraudulent central bankers. A large portion of our populace has been convinced that there is only one way to participate in the economy; thus, they act collectively and blindly.

Another obvious example is the false left/right political system. While there are as many political views as there are people, most people tend to affiliate themselves with one of two: Republican or Democrat. Even if you were to believe that the two major parties are honestly opposed,
you have still allowed the establishment to narrow your choices down to two. Add the fact that both major parties actually support nearly the same exact policies and goals, and now your choices have been narrowed to one. Millions of people jump on this one bandwagon every four years, thinking that they are cooperating voluntarily, when they have instead been centralized, and collectivized.

Constant Fear, Constant Threats: Fear and survival are powerful motivators. Without ample self-awareness and strength of character, these basic instincts can overwhelm rationality and conscience. Every collectivist feudalist system ever devised has used a “common enemy” or an iron hand to quell dissent in the citizenry and to forcefully unify them not under the auspices of an honest cause, but a terror so profound as to drive them to malleable despair. After a period of constant danger and distress, even fascism can feel comfortable for a while. Collectivist systems are always clashing with the bubbling tides of individual freedom. Because of this, they must continuously qualify their usefulness. There must always be an imminent threat over the horizon; otherwise, the strangling regulations of the state serve no purpose.

Individualism Equated With Selfishness: One of the inevitable conditions of collectivism is the demonization of free thought. In a collective, every person becomes a cog in a great machine. The majority begins to see itself not as a group of individuals acting together, but as a single unit with a single purpose. Any person who chooses to step outside of the box and point out a different view becomes a danger to the whole. A machine cannot function if all the parts are not working in harmony. Disagreement in a collectivist system is not considered a civic duty; it is considered a crime that places everyone else at risk. As a dissenter, you are not a person, but a malfunction that must be dealt with.

It is easy to tell when your Nation is turning toward collectivism; you have to gauge only how often you are accused of “selfishness” every time you question the needs of the state over the needs of the individual.

Promises Of A Fantastic Future: “Innovation” and “progress” are alluring dreams that can easily be realized in a free society made up of intelligent individuals thinking in ways that go against the norm. The more unique insights present in a culture, the more likely it is to surpass itself and succeed. Strangely, though, it always seems to be collectivists who throw around visions of high-tech trains, floating cities and sustainability as benefits to relinquishing certain freedoms. The insinuation is that if people set aside their individualism, their society becomes stronger and more productive, like worker bees who strive for only one thing: the perfect hive.

Common Aspects Of Community

Now that we have explored the intricacies of collectivism, let’s take a look at what it is designed to destroy. What makes real community? What are its benefits and its weaknesses? How does it begin? How does it end? Why is it such a threat to collectivists?

Real Purpose: Communities develop in light of meaningful exchange. Their purpose is natural and common. Their goals are not fixed, but evolve as the community progresses. The beneficiaries are the citizenry — sometimes even those who do not directly participate, rather than a select minority of elites. Communities work best when purpose and destiny are self-determined.

Voluntary Participation: There is no need to force people to participate in a system that operates on honesty, conscience and individual will. In fact, many people today long for a
system like this. When men and women apply their energies to something they believe in, instead of something they are manipulated into following, the results can be spectacular. Progress becomes second nature — an afterthought instead of an unhealthy obsession.

Legitimate Respect: The purpose of a true community is not to keep tabs on the personal lives of its participants, nor to mold their notions. The rights of the individual are respected above all else. Again, the more varied the insights of a population, the stronger it becomes. For a community to attempt to stifle the viewpoints of its citizens would be to commit suicide. There is
strength in numbers, but even greater strength in variety. Individualism takes effort, time and dedication. A society made up of people who have made this journey cannot help but esteem each other.

Flexibility Leads To Stability: A wise man adopts what works and throws out what fails. He does not dismiss methods out of hand, nor does he hang onto methods that disappoint simply because he cannot let go. He educates himself through experience. Adaptability, flexibility and agility in thought and in policy create solid ground for a society to build. Communities survive by being able to admit when a mistake has been made and by being open to new options. Rigid systems, like collectivist systems, cannot function unless the people conform to the establishment and its deficiencies. Communities function best when the establishment conforms to the people and the truth.

Mutual Aid: Collectivist systems are notorious for promoting the idea that “we are all one.” However, they usually end up becoming the most antisocial and uncaring cultures to
grace the planet. You cannot centralize or enforce charity because then it is no longer charity, but slavery. Citizens of communities, on the other hand, actually seek to help each other — not because they expect immediate returns or because it’s “good for the state,” but because they value an atmosphere of benevolence. The generosity of community helps individuals detach from dependence on government, or bureaucracy. The less dependence on centralized authority, the stronger and safer everyone becomes.

Mutual Defense: While collectivism sacrifices its participants for some undefined “greater good,” communities defend one another, knowing that if the fate of one’s neighbor is ignored, the fate of oneself may also be ignored by others. No one is “expendable” in a community. Everyone is expendable in a collective.

Building Community In A Modern World

The task of constructing meaningful community today is daunting, but crucial. In an increasingly centralized and desensitized world, the only recourse of the honorable is to decentralize and to reintroduce the model of independence once again. This starts with self-sufficient communities and solid principles. It starts with unabashed and unwavering pride in the values of sovereignty and liberty. It starts with a relentless pursuit of balance and truth. It starts with an incredible amount of hard work.

The trappings of collectivism sometimes seem insurmountable. The mindless devotion of our friends and family to a system that harms them can cause us to lose hope and to lose focus. We must remember how collectivism operates: by removing the power of choice from the equation. If we return that power, then many people who we may have once deemed “lost causes” might awaken as well. By exposing the masses to another option, a better option, we undo years of lies and lengths of chain. If there was ever a perfect moment to begin this battle, now is the time. Americans are still searching for solutions, and they are not too fearful to pursue them once they are found.

–Brandon Smith

Brandon Smith

is the founder of the Alternative Market Project, an organization designed to help you find like-minded activists and preppers in your local area so that you can network and construct communities for barter and mutual aid. Join Alt-Market.com today and learn what it means to step away from the unstable mainstream system and build something better. You can contact Brandon Smith at: brandon@alt-market.com

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  • GALT

    HHHHMMMMM just how did those hunterer/gatherer collectives manage to last that long?
    Ignorance is Strength; War is Peace; Freedom is Slavery.

    • phideaux

      galt is ignorant.

      • http://gravatar.com/dawgbisquit1 Tom W.

        LOL!!! WAY beyound phideaux!

        The Marxist idea of the law, as officially defined by the Soviet Union in 1938: “Law is a combination of the rules of behavior established or sanctioned by state authority, reflecting the will of the ruling class – rules of behavior whose application is assured by the coercive power of the state for the purpose of protecting, strengthening and developing relationships and procedures suitable and beneficial to the ruling class.”

        They that have ears to hear, let them hear. Please Dear Lord!!!

        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kdD52DAaFRs

        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dON5D6Wkprw

    • Steve E

      The people that actually did the hunting and gathering were Conservatives. The other people that did not hunt or gather but enjoyed the spoils were Socialist.

      • Eric Jones

        The ones who wernt hunting or gathering were probably busy taking care of the young,elderly,widows etc by-the-way if the hunters didnt share the food then the others would die then they the “hunters”would be capitillists.

      • Hunter

        The people doing the hunting and gathering were the patriots looking out for the welfare of others. The Socialists are the rich who want the hunters and providers giving everything to their rich families, then trickling down what they don’t need (let them eat cake).

    • GALT

      Today’s reminder of where the battle lies…….quick before they shut it down.

      http://usa-the-republic.com/revenue/ucc%20connection.html

      • Deerinwater

        Very Interesting read ~ I’m not sure that I’m ready to tackle my legal “issues” armed with such information but it’s thought provoking to say the least as a contempt of court charge has had me tied in knots no more then one occasion, freezing me in action as I seen no place to move and accepting a Checkmate, while knowing all along that I’d been screwed somehow.

        So, could one ask the courts under what jurisdictional law are the charges made without showing your hold card?

    • http://testra.com John Hart

      The reason for the Collectivist v/s Community battle is the misconception wealth is a possession when in fact wealth is a contract enforced by government that wealth needs to pay for. The burden is placed on the backs of the lower classes by clever politicians funded by greed, who write laws that maintain economic enslavement.

      Income tax enslaves the poor, inhibits innovation, kills growth and maintains the monopoly of capital of the elite. The “upper one percent” is small business. Income tax was designed to prevent competition and enable large corporate interests to take over and digest the little fish.

      The Solution, abolish income tax and replace it with a Proportional Asset Tax. Phase out tax and spend government programs, replace them with privately funded ones and give people credit for contributing to them. Tax credits for open source software is high on my list. The threat posed by closed source programs is recognized by very few.

      Get rid of Collectivized Health Care and let doctors keep their income and encourage them to invest it in their practices.The current system all but killed innovation and is keeping medicine in the dark ages. Markets are the only way to improve things. Government needs to strictly follow it’s limits.

      Protect Property.
      Provide Currency.
      Promote Welfare.

      • Deerinwater

        Again, very interesting ~ so John if wealth is to be a “contract” ,where is it written and when did you and I sign it? ~ When we applied for a social security card as children?

        I understand your viewpoint ~ and clearly wealth is being treated as a binding contract.

  • MAP

    Great article!
    I know my wife and family. I know my neighbors (I live in the backwoods with few neighbors). I know the people I attend church with. I know the people I work with. I know many of the people in my small town. I know God and Christ. These are things concrete and real. These are the things from which grows other things like culture and traditions. Edmund Burke said that these things are organic, growing as a living thing and possessed with the mysteries of Providence. But according to the government under which I live, these things are to be demoted to second place. First, I must believe in abstractions such as American, or human. That is, I am required to reject the concrete for the abstract. I am required to reject ‘community’ for ‘state’. But what, in essence, is it that defines these abstractions? It is done by those within the central state; and they make them up as they go along. However, without the concreteness of community we are given only the hollowness of the abstract, which does not really even exist. These abstractions serve as a major tool in the tyranny of the modern state. It is the polar opposite of any type of freedom, as it represents only coercion and control.

    • Robert Smith

      MAP says: “I am required to reject the concrete for the abstract…”

      The concept of “god” is certainly abstrct. You can’t see him, hear him, and when you do he demands that he be the only one…

      Looks to me like one person’s “abstract” is another’s reality.

      Rob

      • MAP

        I have nothing to say to an atheist, except prove that He doesn’t. We certainly wouldn’t want anything to intrude on your doing anything you want, without restraint. Why, that might create such things as Character. Next, you might develop the qualities of a Gentleman. Horrible to think! That would not be at all fitting for a delusional, liberal loon.

      • Nadzieja Batki

        Robert Smith, you still couldn’t let go of commenting nonsense.

      • druoak01

        Well said Robert! While I am tolerant of and respectful of the individual’s choice “to be a believer” or to “believe in someting different” or even to choose(that’s the key stone here) no belief. In a both both historic and concrete sense, religion and freedom are opposing opposites. Religous tyranny, Christianity, Islam and now Judaism fit to a tee Brandon’s description of “collectivism.” MAP states, “These abstractions serve as a major tool of the tyranny of the modern state.” Modern? HUH! The concrete, not abstract, idea that “I am an American” based on the “concrete” application of religious freedom in the Constitution & Bill of Rights means that freedom of religion does not mean freedom to impose the beliefs of one onto another. I accept the “guidelines set out in the Constitution & Bill of Rights” not blindly on faith, but with open eyed awareness that their application appreciates and respects our individual differences, thus giving “common ground” on which strong community is built.

      • Identitee

        Rob,

        God is the most concrete thing in my life.
        Perhaps if you don’t know Him, He just seems like an idea.
        But in reality, He is a Person, and you can get to know Him just like you know your friends, children, spouse, etc. Try convincing me that my mother doesn’t exist! Ha! To say that God is an abstract just says that you don’t know God personally and so you CONCEIVE of Him as an abstract.

      • ED

        Druoak,

        It is obvious that you did not comprehend Brandon’s points on religion. Here is what he said:”(though people tend to wrongly blame the concept of religion itself, rather than the corrupt men who sometimes misuse it)”.

      • http://www.facebook.com/eugene.frana Eugene Frana

        To Robert Smith; Good answer! Following the orders of “god”, or following the orders of government is really the same thing , isn’t it? I wish more people would realize this.

      • AnonoSedai

        Eugene Frana says: “Following the orders of “god”, or following the orders of government is really the same thing , isn’t it? I wish more people would realize this.”

        It only works that way if you’re a Communist, Eugene. Communists think the government should be worshiped as God and should have god-like powers over the people. It’s not a good thing.

      • http://www.facebook.com/david.a.deal David A Deal

        I’m an Atheist and I believe in the Constitutuional principle of doing anything you want so long as it does not infringe on the rights of others. The problem with religious fundamentalists is they feel we shouldn’t be allowed to do anything that they don’t believe in even if it doesn’t interfere with their lives but only offends their narrow point of view. The government under GW Bush went to great lengths to keep us scared. The church wants us to FEAR god and conservatives want us to be afraid of Liberals. It’s all about using fear to control. RAGGS says this administration wants people to stay stupid. Sorry but I’ve never been stupid. And the Obama administration embraces education and only the conservatives can truly be hurt by the truth because they lie with impunity. Examples, Faux News, Limbaugh and their ilk. BIG business is the true controlling power in this new world order leading us down the road to serfdom and supported full throttle by the conservatives who heap one huge tax break and loophole after another on the wealthy and corporations who are holding RECORD amounts of wealth right now as the rest of us destroy each other in the dof eat dog world scrambling for the remaiming scraps. The true solution is to restore adequate taxation on the wealthy to pay the bills and reduce the taxes on the job creators (which are the consumers who drive the economy with purchasing power) The first $25,000 of income should be tax free to allow those at the bottom the chance to get ahead, save for retirement, afford a home and healthcare.

      • Mike in MI

        Eugene Frana -
        It could only be the same if man’s laws were established by omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent, eternal committees. I have never found that adhering to man’s laws is as beneficial to me, personally and individually, as ascribing to what God asks me to do for my own good. If I commit some “sin” it doesn’t hurt Him. I’m the one who steps in the dog’s mess – even after He indicated in His Word it was there and the consequences. I’m the one who stinks, not Him.
        He set up the Universe by speaking it into being by WORDS.
        God’s Words have authority and power that is of immediate value and availability if you decide to continuously, consciously, faithfully line up with the manufacturers specs for how to make actions and words garner results – instead of consequences. For 40 years now I seen faithful people get great results. So I’m not anecdotal. You wouldn’t be either.
        But…if you like consequences …have at it. You’ll probably ask me to pay for fixing it. But that isn’t going to go on for ever. God’s kind a big on personal responsibility.
        Jesus never set up a soup kitchen or Health and Human Services Department. But it does say something about warfare against the armies of the unbelievers.
        He’ll probably just let their own evil consume themselves – like a snake devouring its own tail.

      • http://www.facebook.com/graigy Graig Yarbrough

        It is true that you can’t see Him or hear Him. Knowing God is not a matter of understanding the whole. That is infinite. This type of understanding comes from continuous examination of the parts, looking for consistency in character and principle.

      • Kate8

        God is not the problem. For those who walk with God, religion is of no consequence.

        Religions are constructs of man to control man. This includes the humanistic religion of the Left, and even atheists so-called non-religion. Whatever mindset one subscribes to and gives power is religion, something they hold as “truth”. In fact, these “religions” are the most ruthless and intolerant.

        God’s Laws are natural laws, and insure the best chances for us to live in harmony and prosperity. Lies, theft, murder, envy all have unfortunate consequences. Putting ones faith and trust in anything of earthly nature is looking to false gods, and will always fail us. Promiscuity brings degradation and disease, and is not respecting the value of others.

        Of course, you can violate these Universal Laws, and will suffer the natural consequences, regardless of whether any government seeks to punish you. It’s called reaping what you sow…kharma. God wants us to recognize the Wisdom and Love inherent in making wise choices, not out of force, but from the heart, because Love compels us to be loving and honoring of our fellow man. In fact, all of God’s creatures have value.

        When we live from our hearts, we impose our will on no one and we allow no one to impose their will on us. What is implicit in this kind of freedom is trust. It is the violation of this trust (that we will be honored) that creates mistrust of our fellow man, and society no longer functions in the spirit of freedom.

        This article is wonderful, and is the first I’ve seen that lays it all out so well. There is much wisdom here, for those who have understanding.

        Maybe one day, in the not-so-distant future, those who do realize and understand these concepts will have the chance to create a world which functions in this consciousness. Sounds heavenly…

      • Mike in MI

        K88 -
        Beautiful, beautiful synopsis – simple, straight forward and accurate.
        You know… the thing I love about God and His way of doing things is He keeps things so-o-o simple.
        He knows everything about how He set up the Universe and everything in it. (Us included.) It’s so complex few people can ever keep together everything necessary to co-ordinate everything in life. Usually, trying to do everything on our own, by ourselves, without His help just ends up in a huge, jumbled mess (socialism on parade).
        So, to avoid such unfortunate chaos He gave us an instruction manual. In it He doesn’t explain all the intricacies of all the complexities that would be necessary to bring about a given result…that will bring maximum benefit to everybody.
        Instead, He just lays out how He wants us to operate on a daily basis in order to get the kind of help only He can give. When we do it He goes to work on our behalf to bring us the desires of our hearts and keep things working smoothly all the way around. No fuss, no fits, no fights and no egos. Things just work out neat and clean, I’ve found.
        On the other hand, those who refuse Him and reject His simple instructions and requests
        invariably end up crossing the wires, shorting the circuits and browning out the whole grid.
        So, at some point as you indicated, He’s said He’ will have to deal with the rejecters, malcontents and offenders.
        It’s His Universe. It’s His right.

      • Kate8

        Mike in MI – Indeed.

        Sometimes I shake my head when I read from those who accuse God of brutality and injustice, as if the creation could be equal to the Creator. Satan (physical man) believes himself capable of rising to this level, but that is very foolish.

        Those who assume such arrogance do so out of lack of understanding, and God knows this. To condemn Him is to condemn oneself, because the error is never with God, Who is Perfect Love. The error is in the perception of the imperfect mind, and we create our own world of grief and suffering through false belief.

        There are more and more of us now who have looked upon the depths of darkness, and it has welled up within us the desire to fully embrace the Light of the Divine, that we never again allow evil to dominate. This is a very positive response to the horrific, and the day will come when such things no longer have any place among us.

        Blessings.

        • RichE

          That’s always confused me, why did God create Lucifer then create Satin? If God hadn’t created Lucifer then God wouldn’t have created sin.

          • Deerinwater

            Because “Man” created both of them in his own image?

          • RichE

            Deerinwater,
            You say Man, not God, created Lucifer and Satin? Boy! my bible reading comprehension really sucks.

      • Kate8

        God created all things in His Perfection. This includes Lucifer, who was beautiful among angels… In the beginning there was only God. Therefore, all of Creation emanates from Him, and carries His Perfect Blueprint.

        He also gave His creation free will and creative ability. As creation became lost in the the illusion of manifest appearance, he began to view the illusion as reality, and set out upon the journey of experience.

        It is man’s perception of the illusion as reality that creates the error. Perception forms beliefs, and beliefs establish the rules by which we govern our lives. Beliefs are not truth, but only our interpretation of the illusion.

        There is only One Truth. That Truth is God/Divine Love/Intelligence/Perfection. All else is belief. The illusion requires duality/polarity to maintain existence. It is in the quest of this understanding that impels the soul to evolve and experience, whether consciously or not. And it is belief that gives birth to the illusion of good/evil, and of separation from Creator.

        When we understand that our interpretations of good/evil are but two sides of the same coin (opposites are the same, only differing in degree), they no longer hold power over us, and the Love inherent in Life emerges from the resulting freedom.

        Know the Truth, and the Truth will set you free!

        • JT

          Good comment Kate8. Do you realize how very “Buddhist” you sound with you comment? Parts of your explaination could have been written by the Buddha Himself.

        • RichE

          Yin and yang

          • Deerinwater

            ” God created all things in His Perfection. This includes Lucifer, who was beautiful among angels… In the beginning there was only God. Therefore, all of Creation emanates from Him, and carries His Perfect Blueprint.”

            Okay, you said it, now support it without depending on “faith”.

            Not that it matters that much, but you seem to think so. And if “what you think” means everything and of greater value then what others might think maybe you are therefore obligated to validate it, if you have plans and intentions to inflict it on other people.

            Then too, depending on who you ask, “perfection” could be a total “Void”. Is that any kind of “perfection” you have an interest in?

          • RichE

            Oh stop it! BTW IMO nothing is the only thing that is perfect. You can’t add anything to it and you can’t take anything away from it.

      • Kate8

        JT – There is truth is all esotericism, and all traditions teach the same truths at that level.

        This includes the teachings of Yeshua. However, his teachings have been perverted by man and religion so that they are not understood.

        We have given others control over us by looking outside of ourselves for the answers to our questions, rather than developing our own rightful soul connection to our Father/Creator. We are then cautioned not to look at any other “truths” or we will suffer eternal damnation. Of course, the obvious problem is that there are myriad interpretations of “truth”, and they all claim to be Truth! Either one is correct, or they are all false!

        Well, the “truth” is that they, as we have understood them, contain the seeds of Truth but are all patently false. Understanding of God is simply not possible through the mind. It only comes when we approach Him through the heart/soul. Yeshua said, “I am the Door”. The “Door” is the heart/soul. This is where Christ abides when we know Him.

      • Kate8

        deerinwater – I got a good laugh over your post.

        Dear, I am not obligated to substantiate anything to you. Nor do I wish to impose my thinking on anyone. I find it interesting that you even went there from what I said…it really shows how your mind works. What part of “freedom” do you not get?

        What am I saying. Your ilk have no understanding of freedom, except, perhaps, the idea of getting someone’s else’s stuff redistributed to YOU for doing nothing.

        Freedom is for everyone, or no one… at least, at one level. On another, freedom is for those who claim it. Once understood, no amount of tyranny can take it away… It’s just matter of how you comprehend your eternal existence.

        I never said that what I’ve come to perceive is any better than your ideas, or those of anyone. We are all at the place where we are, and we look at the world from that place. Perceptions cannot be forced on anyone, nor can we understand those of another, except through the prism of our own belief system. So it would do me no good at all to try to explain how I’ve arrived at my perceptions, because it would mean nothing to you. Nor do I care to examine yours, because I find them empty.

        Just as a flower unfolds in its own time, so do our souls unfold in their season. It is YOU who choose to ridicule things you don’t yet understand. And that’s okay… it’s all part of the process. The sooner we learn to allow others the freedom to experience their own journey in their own timing, the sooner we will have peace on Earth.

        • Deerinwater

          WeLL Kate, I paid no attention to who’s post I was responding to. ~ I simply responded to it as it would make it passed my filters. If I’d paid more attention and realized it was you, ~ I’d passed it over, knowing the way you are and considered the source. Most of your reasoning fails to make it though my filters, we’ve agreed to disagree for the last 3 years.

          For example you write;

          “What am I saying. Your ilk ( that must be “likes”) have no understanding of freedom, except, perhaps, the idea of getting someone’s else’s stuff redistributed to YOU for doing nothing.”

          response;
          Now if that’s not a lofty judgement statement, I don’t know what one would sound like. Coming from the same person that attempts to explain “perfection” two posting up, it’s laughable and you missed your calling as a comic. Do you really think it is okay to claim I have no understanding of freedom unless it’s be taking things that are not mine to have?
          You have all but called me a thief and too simple minded to understand notions of freedom in a single sentence.

          Now that some serious “perfection” you’ve got working for you there lady. With a head that large, I’m left wondering how you manage get it through the door!

          “Freedom is for everyone, or no one… at least, at one level. On another, freedom is for those who claim it. Once understood, no amount of tyranny can take it away… It’s just matter of how you comprehend your eternal existence.”

          Response;
          Well that’s another lofty notion which we might all “hope” to aspire to. For notions of freedom do come only in degrees and rarely permitted for the simple asking of it.

          And it does not have to be tyranny that robs freedom, it could be love or possessions or honor or loyalty. It could also be fear of the unknown, fear of God, fear of demons,

          We are a prisoners of our thoughts and beliefs. For example; You Kate seem to be a prisoner to GOD and some strange notion of perfection ( exactly like my mother). I”ve had this conversation many times. If you are going to be something’s prisoner, God is better then most. But I’d venture to say you are not a prisoner of God but of organized religious doctrine with it’s only branded slant making it unique for all the other’s. I only hope that you don’t play with snakes. The church mother attends is renown for singing off pitch ( I think they like it that way) and get you wet from a44hole to appetite to wash all those nasty sins away but not to be a member of the Church like some people I won’t mention. Each denomination has it own slant on the Word.

          “I never said that what I’ve come to perceive is any better than your ideas, or those of anyone.”

          Response;
          Oh! I think that you did when you said I don’t know anything about freedom unless it’s getting something taken from others and received undeserving.

          And for what it worth to you (which probably is not much) it’s only when you have freedom and liberty taken away from you that you began to understand what freedom and liberty are. Until that happens to you and you experience the loss of autonomy and free will, finding yourself viewed has little more then perishable meat, ~ I would say, you have experienced this first hand, you know little of freedom.

          I raised two girls, ~ the wife caught them skipping school one day ~ The wife was very upset with this and didn’t want it to happen again or even worry that it might.

          I loved my girls finding them perfect in every way and I loved peace in the house

          ~ I took their hair spray, lip stick and eye makeup, TV, radio , the lamp shade and removed the door to their bedroom with the warning their hair would be next and explained how they could recover their losses with good behavior. This never happened again.

          I didn’t deny them their freedom , I denied them what they were prisoner’s too.

      • Kate8

        Well, deer…another little blast of sarcastic nastiness coming from you.

        First of all, just because one’s perceptions of things begins to change and expand, does not mean one has reached the state of being aspired toward. I have never said that I, in my human capacity, have reached perfection. We are all perfection at our core/spirit being. It is the human mind which is imperfect. And while I do have a passion for higher truths, I have quite a way to go in that regard. And that is okay.

        You can ridicule my “lofty” ideals, but I find that they bring me peace. I have studied and stumbled for many years, and what I’ve gained has been learned at a great price. It is natural to want to share them with others who have aspired to similar states of consciousness.

        Besides, just as you seem to enjoy taking jabs at those whose ideas are different from yours, including moi (I’ve read your posts, though I often skip over them, as well, as I find them completely without substance), I also find it rather fun to jab at some of your nonsensical ideas.

        Your judgment of me, or anyone, is only your judgment. You think you can know what someone is about based on your ideas of others whom you’ve lumped in the same category. You couldn’t be further from the truth.

        Admittedly, I’ve done the same with you, but you libs are so parroting of one another…like a group mind. Lockstep. One can only assume that the brainwashing is complete.

        I’m sure that, as an individual, you have many good qualities, and it would seem that you do love your family. But you are also part of a movement which is attempting to take control of every part of our lives, and for some reason you find that justifiable. I am with the mindset that just seeks to be left in peace to live as we wish, harming no one.

        So, your contempt is noted. But, with any luck, you will soon find your camp on the losing end of the struggle. It seems that reinforcements have arrived.

        • Deerinwater

          “Your judgment of me, or anyone, is only your judgment. You think you can know what someone is about based on your ideas of others whom you’ve lumped in the same category. ”

          Nasty in ~ Nasty out Kate8. You do a fairly good job of “grouping and judging” yourself.

          Do you think that you can plant corn and pick cotton?

          Evidently, you don’t know how ugly you come across ~ “The Likes of you and your kind”

          You really need to read your bible more with greater focus on the Gospels and shine that halo of yours.

      • Kate8

        deer – Here’s some spiritual advice for ya: Stick it where the sun don’t shine.

        • RichE

          Interesting way to use a rosary.

        • Deerinwater

          “deer – Here’s some spiritual advice for ya: Stick it where the sun don’t shine.”

          That seem to be the origin of your most of your spiritual understanding it but i wouldn’t wish it on others. You will harvest what you plant.

          • Jeff

            You think Kate thought that one up all by herself? What a gal!

      • TIME

        Dear Kate,

        That is some really GREAT work!

        You know if people would just look at the facts that we are all Human.

        How strange that all religions have the same base story’s, many even cross into each other. Yet when we have the People in the Middle telling us what to think, what to wear, or how to act. Thats when we break the bonds with the higher Power, be it God, The Christ, Buda, etc. its all the same TEACHING’S, even the Hopi talk of the Kachina and what’s that mean – The Teacher’s.

    • Warrior

      The gubmint will “dictate” what you owe or the gubmint will take it from you. By “force” if necessary. Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness? Hey, where’s my free health care, contraceptions, food, paycheck, car, cell phone, etc, etc.

      I’ve decided I want all this “stuff” so I may switch sides. Who does one go to to start negotiations for more “free stuff”. Start at the local DNC Office or does one go higher?

      I’m new to this so forgive me for asking.

    • http://www.facebook.com/eugene.frana Eugene Frana

      To those of you who misunderstood my comment: I want NOTHING to do with Collectivism or Socialism…..OR RELIGION!
      I’m a Libertarian and I believe people should be able to lawfully live and think any way they choose. I just happen to be an atheist.
      This government was founded on common law for everybody, not just christians! Thomas Jefferson made a point of this many times, as did quite a few other Presidents, including Ronald Reagan!

      • Mike in MI

        Eugene -
        Point delivered, acknowledged and received. If you were misunderstood…well, clarity of expression and delivery is a great trait for the future. Please, don’t get upset at us.
        Freedom is indeed a wonderful thing. However, your protest re: .freedom from religion is futile. If you closely examine ANY philosophy that has ever been propounded by anybody you will find elements of RELIGION in it:
        Somebody giving his opinion of how he thinks everybody else ought to do things to align with his mental state and the temporal set of circumstances encountered in his days, his place, his way of accommodating to his environs…religion. You’ve got one you have gerrymandered together during your life. The Bible calls you “a seed-picker”, like a little bird going around picking-pecking up idea-seeds it encounters here and there.
        I did the same thing when I was younger…got REALLY dissatisfied with the results. Finally, I decided was going to need to acquire some humility if I was ever going to get a body of Wisdom that would work. At that point God could begin to show me stuff that led me to something that is wholecloth…not just a patchwork quilt.
        God Bless you. You’ve got more integrity than most. Got to give you that.

  • Bobseeks

    Collectivism is the enslavement of the strong by the weak, the productive by the parasitic, and the good by the evil. We can see what collectivism has done to the once great people of Europe as the Europeans descend into a mindless herd of selfish, lazy, dependant, drones – the bastard sons and daughters of collectivism. We can see the same thing happening in this once great nation as many become dependant on government and demand that the government enslave those who produce to meet the needs of their worthless, unproductive selves.

    • Chocopot

      Well said! I hope you do not mind if I quote you.

      • Bobseeks

        Thank you, and I don’t mind at all.

      • Matt

        Very well put. Beware the spreaders of other people’s wealth. They are the horsemen of the socialist Apocalypse. Read the history of socialist takeovers in Russia or China if in need of examples.

    • Nadzieja Batki

      Bobspeaks, the opposite is true. The pretend “weak” attach themselves to the strong because working and striving for a living and survival is much too strenuous for the supposed weak. If the “weak” can convince the strong that they need help and nurturing and sustenance and are helpless to get it and convince the strong to supply it for them then you have the gotcha moment. Now the strong have a permanent parasite attached to themselves.

    • hawkeye10

      Margaret Thatcher of England said “The problem with socialism is you eventually run out of other people’s money.”

      • GALT

        The problem with capitalism is that it produced the delusion of “money”, in the first place.

        “If you believe that money is the root of all evil, have you asked what is the root of all money?” Ayn Rand

        The cleverest aspect of the new incarnation of “money” in the mythology known as “economics” is the description of “capitalism” as the “private ownership of the means of production”…………..this has worked so well as a distraction, that it has effectively obscured the reality of the purpose and necessity of “money” from the outset.

        This absurd insanity has manifested itself in the denial of the results of the inherent
        evil……of free market unregulated capitalism………which you have seen twice, in the last 100 years……..1929 and 2007. All manner of excuses are being made to deny this reality, yet all the conditions for both of these events were in place……free markets, zero regulation, and completely voluntary transactions by all parties involved…….

        But these were “crony capitalists”? I don’t think so……this is what capitalism has always been about……and it ain’t about the “means of production”.

      • Vicki

        GALT writes:
        “The problem with capitalism is that it produced the delusion of “money”, in the first place.”

        This is not a problem with capitalism. This is a problem of your understanding of money.

        Don’t feel bad though. The Federal Reserve has been deluding people with fiat currency for many years claiming that it is money and has some value.

    • Jeff

      What is it you guys love so much about the 19th century? Get rid of government and all “collective” pursuits and that’s where you’re left. The vast majority of people scratching out an existence and left to die as soon as they’re too old or infirm to perform back-breaking labor. No environmental standards, no workplace regulations. Excuse me if I don’t see that as something to strive for.

      Post-War Europe with its social welfare institutions has been paradise for most people. No rich person has had trouble staying rich, the middle class have had a quality of life only kings could dream of in past eras, and even the poor have been able to exist better than probably 90% of people in those past eras.

      • Sanders

        Hey Jeff,

        “Post-War Europe with its social welfare institutions has been paradise for most people”

        And that paradise is crashing down around them now.

        Socialism/communism has never worked, in all instances and all countries where they have been “tried” have eventually failed miserably and the people of those countries suffered tremendously, not those in power though.

      • independant thinker

        If things are so hunky-dory in post war Europe kindly explain why people in Spain are killing the cattle of farmers and ranchers and stealing the meat in order to have something to eat. Reported in several stories on MSN and MSNBC.

      • Vicki

        Hey Jeff. If Europe is so cool get on over there. Let us be.

      • Brian W

        Post-war Europe hasn’t been quite a paradise, but it was a pretty darn good place to live before Goldman Sachs and their pals decided it was a good place to dip their sticky fingers into. Not to mention the other monopolist American corporations that bought up and closed down most of the major local companies in my city.

        • Jeff

          Which city is that? I just get annoyed when “conservatives” so blithely ignore the benefits of civilization in favor of the “good old days” of the 1890s when a few people with the attitudes of Donald Trump ran rampant over everyone.

      • Jeff

        I find it interesting that “Vicki” chose to ignore everything in my post except the positive reference to post-War Europe. The comparison was to the 19th Century, not to present-day U.S. Vicki, I am staying and I intend to keep saying what I think. No silly blogosphere fascist will stop that. I would still like to know why you think a world w/o gov’t regulation would be such a paradise.

      • Brian W

        My reply was directed at Sanders. I’m referring to the North-East of England. Of course things were bad in the 19th century when capitalists were free to exploit. After WW2 there was a period of growth and a steady improvement in living standards across the boards. But in the 80s the unions became too greedy (or too infiltrated) and lost the game to Margaret Thatcher. Since then the vultures have pounced and decimated the industrial heartlands. Over here we have to read “Fascist” as the equivalent for “Conservative” in America.

        • Jeff

          Exactly. In Europe, at least Britain, even the Tories recognize the need for a social safety net, healthcare, etc. Here, the Republicans like to pretend they live in the mythic wild west.

          • Deerinwater

            “even the Tories recognize the need for a social safety net, healthcare, etc. Here, the Republicans like to pretend they live in the mythic wild west.”

            I’ve quit believing they are pretending Jeff, I think they are serious. Fortunately they are not very active in society, clearly they don’t get out much or they’d be dead or in jail. They are laid up somewhere licking their wounds and interface the world though media and growl.

      • Deerinwater

        “This is not a problem with capitalism. This is a problem of your understanding of money.”

        Hmm? I guess Vicky’s understanding of money is far superior then yours.

        It really not so much what Jeff or I think about money but what you think, so Vicky, I guess you’ve got a point. I’ll adjust.

        Unabated, unfettered Capitalism is just as poisonous and harmful as anything other “ism”. In all things, moderation is key in successful application.

      • Brian W

        The only mistake is to believe in the Left/Right illusion. The ultimate outcome of both is a fat and wealthy few lording it over a poor and defeated populace. Example: spot the difference between Tsarist and Communist Russia? The Tsars and Stalin? The only real difference is the clever PR image and the kind of tricks they use to get there. Psychology has proven itself a deadly weapon in the hands of both. And there should be no illusions about the willingness of either to use bayonets when it suits them.

        • Jeff

          The difference between Stalin and the Tsars is theoretical only. The difference between both and a representative government is not. The question is who is actually represented by that government, the people or the oligarchs? I fear we are moving more and more toward hyper over-representation of the oligarchs. And the ironic thing is many working class people willingly sign on to an agenda that favors only the plutocrats. 37% of union household voters supported that little fascist in Wisconsin. How people can be swayed by political ads has always amazed me. Romney could spend a trillion dollars on ads depicting Obama as the anti-Christ but he would never get my vote.

    • Mike in PA

      Jesus said as you do to the least of these , so you do to me, Not I’m OK you can go to Hell.

    • GALT

      At some point, you are going to realize that these are just words, which serve the purpose of the bell in Pavlov’s experiments…….you respond and receive absolutely NOTHING in return.

      You think you know what the words mean but you do not. You think you understand the history, but you do not know the history…………………

      And all these words, collectivist, communist, socialist, progressive etc. represent movements in response to the evils of “money”, which was created by governments,
      for the purpose of war, conquest and enslavement. It arises between 800 to 600 BC,
      in Greece, India and China…..and lasts until 600 AD…….where is takes a brief nap,
      and then re-emerges in the middle ages, in Europe……where war, conquest and enslavement begin again……….this time, instead of the government and the theocratic elements, we add a third entity……”private enterprise”, which includes bankers, mercenaries, etc……….and in this incarnation “usury and debt”, which was a point of contention between the two previous faction of governments v. religious authority…..
      now becomes a pawn in a game of survival between these three factions…….and the religious authority, which had always been the check against “usury”…..is now in a battle for it’s own survival………( which it lost, because it had surrendered it’s moral authority
      to survive. )

      It is the result of this battle……..which has created the world that you live in currently…..
      but the purpose of “money” has not changed and the “effects of usury” and “debt”, have simply grown to produce greater evil and inequality……..slavery, in a more clever disguise.

      The purpose was clear from the origins of this new incarnation……

      “A man must live by his work, and his wages must be at least enough to maintain him.
      They must even on most occasions be somewhat more: otherwise it would be impossible for him to bring up a family and the RACE of such workmen could not last beyond the first generation.”

      What impression this makes on you……those words……that is the question?

      • TIME

        Dear Galt,

        Perhaps even just the simple term, “PEOPLE FARM.” As thats what we – as in all Humans now are.
        Oh and we also work well as Killers when the standing De Facto Gov’s need to rob rape and loot someone else to gain more of what ever it is — be it, Gold, Oil, Natural Resources etc..

        How sad.

        Peace and Love

      • GALT

        Only to be trumped by the “willfull ignorance” of the “victims” who clamor for more of the same…….”passionately”, of course………………….

      • Opal the Gem

        And galt posts another of his over long useless comments that says nothing of consequence.

      • GALT

        or not so “passionately”………..

      • boyscout

        Galt. a little off the subject, but I would like your (and others) thoughts on the nature and future of growth economies in general. I am most interested in what will likely happen when populations exceed sustainability. I would like to hear from both (only two ?) sides on this one. Got any links ?

        • RichE

          “Why, in my day, you could buy meat anywhere! Eggs they had, real butter! Fresh lettuce in the stores”. Soylent Green

      • Vicki

        GALT writes:
        “You think you know what the words mean but you do not.”

        Next you are going to tell us that it depends on what the meaning of “is” is. (Thanks Bill)

      • GALT

        Economic sustainability requires that resources be managed based on natural systems and their restoration and maintenance. The current approach regarding economic theory
        is a false model which has simply squandered and abused the stored energy of carbon based fuels, with complete disregard for the consequences of such actions, and without
        the proper accounting regarding the true costs, which is bill that remains unpaid and is long overdue and continuing to grow.

        While the current economic stagnation is largely due to the fiscal irresponsibility of the imagined “wealth creators”, the underlying reality is one which has been fueled by debt,
        so while the fantasy of “growth” remains the mantra of conventional wisdom, continuation
        of such policies will simply expose the “reality” that we have already reached or exceeded
        sustainable limits to the point of undeniable recognition that much sooner.

        This adjustment will be most difficult for those who have achieved a higher living standard
        based on the egotistical notion that they have somehow earned this standard through merit rather than the policies of exploitation, destruction and theft of the resources of others, as has always been true of empires…….and attempts to continue this, will become difficult to disguise as anything other than what they truly are…….even though the domestic populations will allow themselves to be persuaded by the most absurd justifications that will allow them to avoid accepting this, for as long as possible.

        The longer it takes to convert to an economic system which is based on the balance required to restore and maintain the biosphere upon which we all depend, where a carbon based balance can be achieved and maintained, the more damage will be done and the effects will be felt most by those countries whose populations whose resources are incapable of sustaining them at current levels, although the effects will be felt by all to one degree or another and grow steadily worse over time.

        To understand the model which needs to be adopted, and which exposes the failure of the current one as well as it core motivation see: ” Economics Unmasked “

  • nc

    The conservatives and liberals who flock here treat the founding fathers and their words, the Constitution, with great reverence as liberty loving independents! Those liberty loving men were very wise in their decision to draft a document to produce system of government! But what the conservatives seem to overlook is that it was a CENTRAL government! Why not 13 strong independent states instead? There was no one forcing them to draft such an instrument but there was that knowledge that they would be stronger as a union with a common cause! Like strong enough to last 200+ years and grow strong enough to where people can practice their independence to a degree not found in other countries over that same period! It was a” WE Did IT” achievement not a “my granddaddy did it ” achievement !!
    They didn’t just write it and tack it on a tree and a miracle called the USA happened! THEY worked at it! Especially in the troubled times and THEY worked at it TOGETHER!
    NONE of that “let the governement fail if it will get US the White House back s**t of todays’s conservatives!!

    • MAP

      You, NC, as is usual for you, are dead wrong. You are merely trying to defend the statist, collectivist, oppressive creation of the evil Democratic Party. That it was a central state was the platform of the Federalists. They were wholly rejected with the creation of Democratic (the original, not the radical, statist monstrosity that exists today, which is the exact opposite of the original) and were never able to return to power. The Federalist never had much support and, during their short life, got most of that through deception and stealth. The constitution as ratified created the united States (lower case U). No amount of lies of the Democrats can change history. Your party represents everything the constitution was built to prevent.

      • nc

        Map, see “bulls,bears,donkeys and elephants” for what the Democrats have achieved! If those figures are wrong please post the correct figures! NOT WORDS—FIGURES!!

      • MAP

        Nc, I am not interested in your political party nonsense. I am registered as an independent. Besides being a conservative, I would call myself anti-Democrat. The Democratic Party is the anti-thesis of freedom and sanity. Their every platform makes me want to puke. I would as soon vote for Lucifer himself as vote for a Democrat. So take your animal tales and fantasies elsewhere.

      • Vigilant

        nc’s broken record once again refers to the faulty statistical analysis upon which he hangs his hat. How many times will you post this absolute lie?

        Sonny, I have absolutely no doubt that the figures are correct, as I have told you before. It’s not the figures that are incorrect, it’s the faulty assumptions and conclusions drawn from them. We went through this before some months ago, but either your reading comprehension or your IQ in general is so low that you’re congenitally incapable of grasping simple facts.

        OK, one more time. The idiotic contention on that statistical “analysis” is based on a number of faulty assumptions, and leaves out more relevant factors than it actually uses. It is a classic case of lying with statistics, intended to sway simple minds like yours into believing the propaganda without question.

        Here are the faulty assumptions:

        It assumes that the president has magical powers to wave a wand and thereby affect the stock market. He has not. A myriad of factors affect the stock market in a capitalist economy, which are beyond the capacity of a president to affect. In the government-managed economy YOU would like to see, the chief executive would have much greater powers to effect change. Currently he has not.

        It assumes that changes in economic direction due to administration policies have immediate or short term effects on the stock market. They do not. The economy is grindingly slow in responding to policy changes by the government. Thus, Clinton rode on the successes of Reaganomics, which brought us the longest sustained period of business prosperity in US history.

        It tries to convey the glaringly false assumption that the health of the stock market is a barometer of the nation’s economic health in general. It is not. By your reckoning, the rebound of the markets under Obama would point to a booming period of prosperity. How’s that working for you? Tell your tale to the unemployed, the record numbers of those on food stamps and welfare recipients.

        It goes wildly wrong in discarding one of the most important factors, the party which is dominant in Congress. Your “statistics” would “prove” something quite different than you assert if that influence were taken into account.

        I know the above is difficult for you to understand. Get a dictionary, a tutor and psychological help to move beyond your one-dimensional “true believer”mind. Perhaps you might take a course in basic macroeconomics before you shoot your mouth off and once again look the idiot. You are fooling no one with a normal intelligence

      • Jeff

        So you would be in favor of eliminating everything progressives have pushed since, say, 1900? Food safety regulations and inspections, the 8-hour day, the 40-hour week, child labor laws, worker safety laws, mine safety laws, social security, Medicare, and environmental protections. And I’m sure there’s a lot I haven’t listed. Is that what a MAP paradise would look like? A lot of it sounds like parts of China or Russia or Africa. Leave me out, please.

    • Liberty Lover

      The Founders gave us a republic in which powers were supposed to reside mostly in the states and the individual citizens of those states, the central government being severely restricted in its powers. By design, citizens were expected to vote with their feet to flee states that became abusive in the exercise of their powers. Collectivists, over time, have done their best to absorb the rights of both states and citizens into the powers of an increasingly powerful, corrupt and abusive central government.

      • GALT

        Amazing how easy it becomes to employ words, which are meaningless…..to distract from the problem……which you UNDERSTAND…….yet still can not see the “enemy”?

        Does a community not act “collectively”? If not, how are they acting?

        Is a group of individuals, a group?

        This differences are meaningless…….they have no foundation……but the serve Mr. Smith’s purpose or his attempted one……..

        • Liberty Lover

          Out of repect for your noble user name, GALT, I’ve read a few of your submissions, hoping that perhaps the meanderings were those of an idiot savant. In the end, though, I’m always forced to give up on the “savant” part. Words do have meaning for those able use them in a rational manner.

      • GALT

        and questions are questions…….since you have chosen not to respond to mine…..it would seem that whatever rational meaning you seem to be implying……..are somewhat elusive?

      • nc

        Liberty, it is still a central government but not of a country with the problems of serving the tens of thousands when it was created.We now face the problems inherent of a country of 320 million! One can surely appreciate the necessity for growth!
        We must support a military capable of being able to defend itself , not in our minds but in the minds of enemies!Otherwise look out for the incoming! This is one mean a$$ed world but at a point in it’s history where intervention in foreign countries does not require ground troops! We have paid dearly for our military technowlege! Reagan and bush set “records” in debt accumulation to create it and use it!! Use the high tech and save the lives!!

        We can cut back with a drastic budget cut IF we can stand the wailing of the 500,000 to one million men, women and children affected by the job losses that are projected to occur from such a move!
        Maybe, just maybe, we can work out a solution TOGETHER, but not if the group in control had just as soon see what we have brought to it’s knees first.

    • Ken Sloan

      Right on, NC. The Articles of Confedration failed miserable. We couldn’t be a nation of thirteen individual state competing against each other. The Framers of the Constitution knew a strong central government was necessary. Another thing that conservatives over look is that sometimes it takes a mass movement, i.e., civil rights, women’s rights, gay rights, labor rights, etc., to bring about changefor the better instead of individuals each getting what they can under the radar and hell with everyone else.

      • GALT

        That the Articles of Confederation failed is not the point, but why they failed….. and the fact they existed at all…….contradicts your major premise……”The Framers of the Constitution knew a strong central government was necessary.”………….

        Which begs the question, who framed the ” Articles of Confederation”, some mysterious group none of whom we are familiar with? And what was it’s primary concern……?

        Strangely, history carefully skips over the “period”……which leads to your ‘conclusion” which is “false” and your current predicament…….

      • Opal the Gem

        More un-intellegable drivel from galt.

  • Big John

    I can sum up the entire article and sentiment in a mere 4 words; “Collectivism is unmitigated ballbaggery!”

  • Rasta

    God you guys are dumb. This is pure drivel!

    • Bobseeks

      No, it is you who are dumb and it is your post that is pure drive, troll.

      • Rasta

        More drivel from the right! I laugh at this stuff. It sounds made up. Oh yeah. It is made up.

      • Vigilant

        Rasta, a gratuitous general assertion without backing up your contention with one shred of fact is typical of the leftist propaganda machine. Try addressing specifics and you MIGHT gain credibility

        If you have nothing substantial to contribute, STFU!

    • Chocopot

      Rasta -

      You are clearly a brainwashed Obamabot.

    • Nadzieja Batki

      So according to your own valuation of yourself you are the highest source of intelligence, yet you post drivel.

  • Bill

    Should any of you wonderfully intellegent people that believe the road that this nation is on right now is the correct one(which is collectivism aka fascist-communist) keep working towards that and you will be surprised at what life will become!

    • nc

      Bill, what ever caused the collapses of 1929 and 2008 are what we need to avoid and we must do it with the people our system affords us! That would be either a Democrat or Republican President if history repeats itself and no reveloution occurs! Both of those collapses were the result of the same party plaform being inacted! The Republican platform and guess what Romney is pushing?? THAT SAME FAILED REPUBLICAN PLATFORM!!! The FBI would call that a clue!!
      PS: IT DIDN’T WORK TOO WELL FOR NIXON (R) EITHER!!

      • hawkeye10

        There is a great alternative to either forced choice of candidates and it is the passage of the Omni Law that will give American’s back their God-given rights. To obtain a copy of this Omni Law, send your request with email address to : fastboomamericaneconomy@gmail.com This law needs to be sent to all representatives of the people, and fast, and needs to be passed now, even before the November election. This is real!

      • Bobseeks

        You are an idiot nc. What about the mass starvation and poverty that afflicted the USSR, Red China, and other collectivist cesspools? What about the bankruptcies that threaten to destroy Europe? Did these come about because of the policies of conservatives, nc? No, they are the policies of parasite leftists such as yourself. In addition, what about the murders of tens of millions by Stalin, Hitler, Mao, Pol pot and the rest of the leftist scum of the last century? When one honestly examines the mind of leftists like you, one sees an abyss filled with the worst kind of evil. The left is a disease that threatens to destroy humanity and replace it with the morally diseased “Socialist Man”.

  • Bones

    Good post. Well thought out and clearly articulated. That anyone would think these ideas are ignorant, ill conceived or evil simply validates the entire point of the ideas presented.

  • mark

    There are far worst things than collectivist tyrranny. Wall Street and Corporate capitalism for instance – a much greater threat to our liberty. The Gods of Capital who buy and sell presidents, senators, and entire nations.

    • Matt

      Mark, you speak ignorant nonsense. Have you ever lived in a collectivist society? Do you handy idea what it’s like? I have and I know. The road to leftist hell is paved with naive steeple like you.

      • Matt

        “have any idea” Sorry for the typo above

    • Nadzieja Batki

      You have decided that Wall Stree and Capitalism are the enemy, and you are lumping everyone and every business as if they were Collective entities.So according to you there is no law firm, no coffee shop, no restaurant, no doctor’s office, no food cart entrepreneur, etc., that are real examples of Capitalism. All is bad. That is a very lazy way of looking at Business enterprises.
      There are caves in the mountains that animals may allow you to inhabit with them and you would not have to deal with all the evil Wall Street and Capitalism.

    • Patriot

      Mark, they have become one in the same. It is not free markets or capitalism that has ruined our economic system, it is crony capitalism that has broken our backs! Now through the UN and this fake environmental movement the colletives are going to take over the entire planet through Agenda 21. We are all Americans forget the lables and start working towards a common goal, which might be survival for many of us!

    • Nadzieja Batki

      There is nothing worse than Collectivist Tyranny.
      If you want Collectivist Tyranny be prepared to push and shove and bite and lie and cheat and steal to maintain your stance in a collective. Your survival may be at stake if someone else wants to have what you have and they are able to displace you.
      You can also stay in the collective and do absolutely nothing with your life and talents because then you will have nothing that anyone wants. But then you couldn’t be too sure that is true.

  • Elevenarrows

    But Mark, if presidents, senators and entire nations had moral fortitude and good character, they could not be bought…by “the gods of capitalism” or anyone else. Your efforts to blame “the gods of capitalism” simply prove the point of Mr. Smith’s article! It would be so refreshing to see more people take personal responsibility rather than standing by with their hands in their pockets blaming others.

  • JT

    Well it seems to me, reading the above descriptions of “collectivism”, that the most obvious example of this in America is actually our US Military. Why does no one see this and recognize this? “Blank slate” (ie Boot Camp), “common enemy” (ie Communism, Islamic Jihad, etc.), dependancy on the gubmint (military = free clothing, free training, free housing, free medical care, free equipment and tools, class warfare (CO, NCO, Grunts), no indivualism, why they even take a sample of your DNA!). On and on and on! That’s it, you have me convinced! Disbandon our Military and we’ll be a lot better off. If someone threatens us, why we’ll just take to the hills and wage guerilla warfare in small, indivual groups, just like the Taliban does in Afghanistan! Yup, we’ll show them!

    • JT

      This was my first post to this site and I’m rather surprised that no one has commented on my original post. I’ve read a lot of others’ comments and have found most of them to be merely regurgitations from religious books (mostly the Bible), conservative philosophers like Ayn Rand (an Atheist, BTW, who ran her own business ventures much like a dedicated Nazi and brooked no personal freedom in her own employees), and various other head in the sky pundits of all stripes. Oh I’ve read beautiful sounding words but very little practical analysis. And very little defining of terms and words, for that matter. Look: I posited a situation (the US Military, any nation’s military for that matter) where “collectivism” or “socialism” or whatever you want to call it is the NORM, and a valid case could be made that this “socialism” is necessary for the institution (the Military) to work at all; and yet no one has remarked on this. Is it possible that “socialism” or “collectivism” works and is needed in some circumstances? And you all talk a lot about “freedom”. What does that mean in today’s world? I go back to my HS Social Studies teacher (yes, I had a GEAT education in public schools) when he posed the old pig-farmer question: does a pig farmer upstream have the right and freedom to dump his swill into the river so as to muck-up the water for those downstream who rely on that water? It’s the freedom of one clashing with the freedom of another. And you can pluralize this situation on either or both sides also. And it’s also a question of sheer numbers and statistics. Like in 1860 a single buffalo hunter with a single Springfield rifle could go shoot all the buffalo he wanted and never make a dent in the herd, but have 10,000 hunters out there and the buffalo are almost driven to extinction. Hey, that’s the simple understanding of the power of numbers and how effects are multiplied with uncertain results. So do we have less freedoms than we did in the 1700′s? Almost of course we do, because one person’s freedom multiplied out over thousands or millions can have untold consequences! That’s the big and only real issue today about freedom: where is the line drawn with so many people in our country and, more importantly, how much more power an individual can have in this modern day and age (see bankers, hedge fund managers, politicians, Tele-evangelists, anyone on Youtube, etc.). Where does MY freedom END and YOUR freedom BEGIN?

      • Liberty Lover

        To get an idea of what a country would look like if organized around a collectivist military take a look at North Korea. Government doesn’t perform any function well if cost-effectiveness is part of the analysis, and that includes defense. The “shock and awe” weaponry that puts America in a class by itself militarily does not emerge from the minds of the collective; it emerges from the creativity of profit-seeking enterprises more interested in their bottom line than in some altruistic commitment to national security.

        • JT

          I certainly agree, Liberty Lover, that North Korea and it’s military organization pervading its society would be a horrible place to live. My point was only that in certain circumstances what folks on here call “socialism” or “collectivism” CAN and DOES work, the obvious example being the Military and specifically WAR. But there are some other examples too, outside the military sphere. The early days of space flight and the walk on the moon, for example. There simply was no “private enterprise” corporation with the incentive or finances able to put a man on the moon. Only government was capable of doing this, and since the government ran the whole show then most on here this log would call it socialism. Ironically, President Obama wants to privatize more and more of NASA and its functions, yet people on this blog call him a socialist! In this case it’s the GOP who are fighting against his efforts and they are actually the ones promoting socialism with regards to space flighs and NASA. The Mahatten Project is another example, as is our interstate highway system and many others. The fact is, that for some circumstances, War being the most notable and extreme, only the Federal Government has the resourses and ability to do the job. My main concern, then, is to ensure that Government does the job the best it possibly can, and as efficiently as possible. And held accountable also. When was the last time you ever seen someone held responsible and accountable for multi-billion dollar cost over-runs in weapons procurement programs, for example? But I disagree with your statement that the “shock and awe” weapontry didn’t arise from the “collective” socialist mind. A lot of government generals and government think-tanks had a big hand in designing these weapons, as does the Soviet and Chinese military have a lot to do with their successful (sometimes) development of their weapontry. No, “socialism” can and does work for SPECIFIC, EXACTING PROBLEMS, but not as a general rule for society at large. Cost effectiveness is another matter, as probably BOTH the government and private contractors are at fault here as relating to weapons procurment.

          • Liberty Lover

            People voluntarily coming together for the purpose of achieving a specific objective (and that would include today’s military) is NOT socialism. It is more an example of community.

            One little-appreciated reality is that nations organized along collectivist lines are able to enjoy living standards well above the primitive existence to which their benighted philosophy would otherwise consign them by virtue of inventions developed within free societies by the unfettered minds of individual men.

          • JT

            Good comment Liberty Lover, but I respectfully disagree. When you state “people coming together voluntary” [Military] is not Socialism sort of ignores the fact that until rather recently there was a DRAFT for Military Service, and participation was hardly voluntary. In the USA starting from the Civil War there was a draft (in Civil War days men in the North could actually buy their way out of the draft if they had $200 or so); and even today many countries still have “compulsory service” of some sort. And actually “socialism” isn’t an adequate discription: flat our “communism” or “fascism” would be a better discription of the Military structure. And even today, with our Volunteer Millitary, also ignoes the fact that most soldiers enlist for economic opportunity reason because they can’t find an adequate job in the private sector. Your comment about inventions “developed by the unfettered men” is also well taken, with caveates however. Don’t forget that the Soviet T-34 tank and Kalishnakov rifle are still considered among the finest weapons ever produced, and the Nazis also produced many technological advances, as do Soviet and Chinese scientists today. But it is true that their accomplishments pale compared with advances produced by more Capitalistic societies. But Capitalistic societies also produce some “lemons”, so to speak. The “Pet Rock”craze is my favorite example.You buy a Pet Rock for $10/$20 or so, get 15 minutes of humor, then throw it in a drawer for years. What a waste! And don’t forget the Credit Swap Defaults invented by Capitalistic bankers that almost (the jury is still out) brought down Western Civilization. Yes, I see structures such as Capitalism and”collectivism” both with serious, yet different, flaws. Capitalism’s flaw is that it’s completely unfettered, with unintended results. We now have Capitalism completely ignoring science (Global Climate Change), for example. “Collectiveism’s” flaw is that it allows certifable “nut-jobs” like Hitler, Stalin, and Mao (just to name a few) to rise to power and cause great evil because their systems don’t have the checks-and-balances as do most Capitalistic government systems.

          • Liberty Lover

            I celebrate a society that recognizes the rights of its citizens to produce and purchase Pet Rocks, however foolish you and I might view such transactions. I believe that a deeper understanding of capitalism would disabuse you of some of your current mythology about that system. And I believe a closer study of the forces leading to a housing bubble and subsequent crash would lead to assigning blame where it most properly belongs: Clinton more than any other complicit President, and Barney Frank more than any other complicit Congressman. George Bush, for all his fiscal folly, actually tried to slow the run-away housing train but was rebuffed by the likes of Dodd and Frank.

          • JT

            Now don’t misunderstand me, Liberty Lover, I am also of the opinion that society should be free to produce and purchase crap such as “Pet Rocks” as they see fit. Now I would draw the line if, perchance, the rocks happen to be radioactive and dangerous, or baby toys are painted with leaded paint and such. But those concerns aside, what I was trying to explain was Adam Smith’s (“The Wealth of Nations”) idea of Productive Labor vs. Unproductive Labor, where Pet Rocks (Unproductive Labor) lead to little further economic growth, whereas Productive ,such as building roads and bridges and seaports, would be Productive Labor in the sense that they would lead to yet further economic growth. So we are in agreement here. But I highly disagree about the causes of the housing bubble and the subsequent recession. Yes I listen to Limbaugh and his Dodo-heads, and Hannity and Muck Latrine and the rest of them, and notice how selective they are in their analysis. They, as you, all blame Clinton and Barney Frank and even Jimmy Carter and Roosevelt, but they are pushing their political agenda and they all ignore any contrary data. The crises was caused by DEREGULATION by the government, not government Over Regulatling. Deregulation favored by the GOP since Reagan, BTW. Here are my points: 1) The Right Wing says that the government caused the crises by “forcing” banks to accept questionable mortgage loans. This is completely over-blown. The banks were all to eager to book these loans, as they immediately sold them and the responsibility for their repayment was out of their hands. (Now I live in a very upscale county, and I dated a girl who was a loan officer at a local S&L, certainly not one of the Mega-Banks to experience any government “coercion”. She finally quit her job because she felt uncomfortable selling these crazy mortgages just because her bosses told her to. Many local multi-million dollar homes were foreclosed in my town, certainly not lived in by any lower-class minority. I think we have like 3 black familes living in our whole town!). 2) Now If these Mega -Banks were coerced, where is their proof? Don’t you think their CEO would be screaming from the rooftops holding letters in their hand “proving” that the government forced them to make these bad loans? We haven’t heard from a single one of them after 5 long years now. 3) Over 60% of these crappy mortgages were made, not by banks, but by Mortgage companies like Countrywide. They experienced absolutely NO government coercion, yet they were all to eager to make and resell these loans. 4) When asked by the moderator in the last presidential election cycle (in the VP debates, in response to the question “What caused the financial crises of 2008?), no less a Conservative genius than Sarah Palin replied “Predatory lending, You Betcha! (OK, I added the “You Betcha!” part, but she was all set to say those two words! LOL!). Now Sarah Palin can’t be wrong, can she? 5) If it was the American Government’s fault, then how do you explain all of the bad mortgages made in OTHER countries like Ireland and Spain? Their banks were completely out of the reach of American Government, yet they also experienced the same meltdown. Ireland especially. For years the Right Wing touted Ireland as an example of government banking De-Regulation, and held Ireland up as a model for all the other countries to follow. They wound up in deeper (expletive deleted) than we did. 6) Countries that KEPT their strict banking regulation, expecially Canada, experienced little of the morgage crises. Same for “Socialistic” countries like Norway, Sweden, Finland, and Switzerland. They didn’t have nearly the mess that we have here. 7) Now you say that the most complicit Congressman was Barney Frank et al., but check that Conservative Senator from Texas named Phil Gramm. HE was the one going around pushing sub-prime mortgages, claiming that his own mother wouldn’t be able to afford buying a house if it wasn’t for a sub-prime mortgage! And it was Phil Gramm who pushed the 1999 Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act, which effectively gutted the Glass-Steagall Act. Yes President Clinton signed it, but it wasn’t his idea. It was pushed by the GOP and Clinton didn’t have the cojones to veto it. Phil Gramm also pushed the 2000 Commodity Futures Modernization Act, which effectively kept the government from regulating the 600 TRILLION dollar derivative market! Ask AIG how all that worked out. 8) Yes, Barney Frank et. al. were complicit, but not to the degree that Phil Gramm was. Throw Barney in jail? Fine by me, as long as he has Phil Gramm as a cell-mate. 9) A lot is made about Freddie and Fannie. Yup, they were part of the problem. But only because they became PRIVATE enterprises and outside of strict government regulation. They were pressured by their shareholders to MAKE MORE MONEY, so they were late to the game and eventually decide to wrap-up and re-sell these bad mortgages. 10) compare their behavior to Ginnie Mae. Now you don’t hear much about it, but Ginnie Mae remained under government control with strict loan standards, and their loans survived quite well, all things considered. 11) Greenspan and Bernake. Two GOPers, and Greenspan an actual acolyte of Ayn Rand herself! He knew her and groveled at her feet! Now which one of them went on the floor of Congress and declared that he was sorry that he made a mistake thinking that banking would regulate itself and wouldn’t get itself into the banking mess that happened? 12) I can think of a few more points, but they are more technical and I’m tired of typing. Yes, according to my analysis BOTH parties were responsible. I would say the Dems 30% and the GOP 70%, based on all my points as stated above. The Dem’s fault was that they were spineless and lacked the balls to stand up to Phil Gramm and the whole Right Wing De-Regulation thing. And the GOP fault because they knew exactly what they were doing, but were very naive in thinkng that free markets and especially BANKS would simply regulate them selves. Even Adam Smith cautioned about banks and monoplies. What a bunch of idealistic dreamers. Who almost destroyed America and the world economy.

          • Liberty Lover

            Your knowledge of history is very impressive, JT. Your understanding, less so in my opinion. Unfettered capitalism will always have cycles. They are an intrinsic part of nature, including human nature. Typically, efforts by government to prevent the down phases of those cycles exacerbate their eventual magnitude. You omitted from your treatise the role of Mr. Greenspan’s central bank in fueling the housing bubble that eventually collapsed (as it had to). The implicit promise of government not to let a major bank or GSE fail played a major role as well in the willingness of those entities to take imprudent risks.

            I belong to neither major political party. I am a “right winger” to the extent that someone who favors legalization of drugs and prostitution can be placed in that category.

  • Deerinwater

    Nice write up Mr. Smith; ~ I fear you might lose some of your readers however with such elevated content. Like George Wallace use to say “Get it down where the goats can eat it. ”

    These thoughts you preview have been with us for sometime however.

    It was a bold man in a Nation ruled by the Crown that stood up and said, “Is life so dear or peace so sweet as to be purchased at the price of chains of slavery? I know not what other’s may say but as for me, give me liberty or give me death.”

    If you stop to consider such a statement could well be considered as treasonous and subject to harsh penalty and imprisonment, it was a bold statement.

    After a 247 year experiment in Democracy, we stand here today, looking hard at our handy work while many wish to judge harshly for a host of reasons, reasons almost too long to list. They don’t like where we’ve arrived and feel their personal freedoms compromised. Some claim that we are Godless, ~ the railing and ranting is unending as some offer “great dissatisfaction to any and all actions on the part of a sitting administration.

    So? ~ somehow ~ a GOP administration will somehow “fix” these things?

    I really don’t think so Sir. There is simply too much money in politics today and money don’t talk, ~ it screams.

    Decentralizing government is not the answer or the cure for what ills us, it would only turn small bull frogs into larger bull frog and we have more of them. If you are hoping for more personal autonomy, that would not be a wise choice. It would only make the USA a weaker nation among nations.

    What you seem to be hoping for, is to stir the pot of dissatisfaction for anything that carries a DNC label by arousing a “victims mentality”,

    I’m shocked! simply shocked! LOL!

    • Identitee

      Deerinwater wrote: “If you are hoping for more personal autonomy, that would not be a wise choice. It would only make the USA a weaker nation among nations.”

      Are you saying that our nation is stronger now than it was, say, during or right after World War II? We had more personal autonomy then and a smaller government. But I would say we were stronger also.

      You say that more personal autonomy would make our nation weaker. But I think the truth is that more personal autonomy would make our GOVERNMENT weaker. Please don’t confuse the Government with the Nation.

      • Deerinwater

        You are of course correct, ~ I did not develop my statement correctly to make the point that I was attempting to make, I stand corrected in using one word for another.

  • Chester

    MAP, I hate to say this about anyone, but you make a point of saying you are ANTI almost everything America actually stands for. You preach individualism, but when someone disagrees with you, you don’t engage in argument, you simply call them a liberal and walk away, You do NOT listen to other people’s ideas, unless they happen to agree with yours and then you proceed to claim them as your own, How about either growing up and JOINING society, or else take yourself to the high country you claim anyone can live in. NO gun, NO ammunition, maybe a halfway decent pocket knife so you can cut a few things and make a trap or two, but nothing else other than the clothes on your back. That is the life you keep pushing as the ideal American life, so again, practice what you preach.

    • Deerinwater

      He’s OD’d Chester, ~ fried his brain, over indulged while lacking much in critical thinking.

      People do this, ~ obsessive -compulsive behavior . The weak and walking wounded are easily “programmed” as they look for relief from inner pain. Not sure of what they are and how they got there, they only know they don’t like it and rebel to everything that is not seen as a part of themselves while it is they that suffer.

      Make sense? Whatever they do, they overdo, ~ much like government they detest.

  • uvuvuv

    reading through this landmark essay quickly i saw that the idea of individuality is marginalized and diminished if not extinguished in a collective system. i might have overlooked the role of atheism and evolution in this. but on this day in 1987 the supreme court ruled that teaching creationism as an alternative to evolution can n ot be required by the states. what kind of feelings of self worth can a second grader have if he’s told his ancestors were swinging through the trees? if his teacher says his parents and church are wrong about creation, wouldn’t this plant seeds of doubt? on the wall is a chart showing how we evolved step by step from some blob of protoplasm. it looks authoritative, while the bible his parents open doesn’t have any scientific diagrams showing the flow toward higher orders of life forms. it just says this was done. a certain percentage of thes kids will become nonbelievers, and this is the goal. it’s inherit the wind in reverse, a process that is slow but steady in eliminating any belief in any deity, but my suspicion is that islam is treated with great reverance by the teachers. but a girl with a bible in her desk or even her backpack is immediately suspended. all of this is a carefully coordinated campaign with great patience, for example george soros will obviously die before the new world order is enforced with goon squads, but he is willing to ceaselessly work towards this goal anyway, because of the seeds of continuing progress he sees day by day. his greatest hope is the corruption of the youth, and this the schools have taken up with alacrity. notice how high school seniors don’t know who benjamin franklin is? how to do long division? it’s all part of the plan. dumb them down and don’t let them think or ask too many awkward questions.

    • Deerinwater

      “. what kind of feelings of self worth can a second grader have if he’s told his ancestors were swinging through the trees? if his teacher says his parents and church are wrong about creation, wouldn’t this plant seeds of doubt? on the wall is a chart showing how we evolved step by step from some blob of protoplasm”

      I would hope that anyone’s notions of “self worth” would be provide and nourished at home and not at school. If you arrive at school void self worth, you will leave school void self worth. Public school normally do not teach matters of faith while they might well defend and support them.

      Public school is for academics, while faith is for home and church. ~ Don’t require the public schools to do the job you should have done at home, don’t make that their job and deffer your own family responsibility. If you do your job well, ~ this is a non issue.

      • Identitee

        Deerinwater wrote: “Don’t require the public schools to do the job you should have done at home, don’t make that their job and deffer your own family responsibility. If you do your job well, ~ this is a non issue.”

        You are correct. What do you think should be done about the situation of children spending the vast majority of their time at school, getting ready for school, or doing schoolwork at home…leaving very little time for those things you rightly claim are the parents’ and church’s responsibility? I think the government-school industry tries its best to stunt children during their formative years and then waste what should be the most productive years of a person’s life.

        • Deerinwater

          “.” You are correct. What do you think should be done about the situation of children spending the vast majority of their time at school, getting ready for school, or doing schoolwork at home…leaving very little time for those things you rightly claim are the parents’ and church’s responsibility? ”

          True perhaps, but when was it ever easy? ~ I can’t remember such a time. So often we find that families don’t do what they need to do. The simplest among them is setting down and eating together. If a family hasn’t the control or will power to do that, they are one step away from allowing someone else to being a greater influence in their little lives.

          Raising children is hard work if it’s done well, it always has been. You must be there and help them through this early rapid growing.

          I never will forget little Luke, at about 8 to 10, he had such a hard time controlling his limps, ~ his arms, hands and legs were in constant motion. Just to be still for 10 minutes seems impossible. It would have been much easier for me to ignore it, then to address it.

          To get across to him that he was responsible for him limbs and what they did ~ took a while.

          It’s at these most basic levels we raise children and teach by example and determination.

      • Karolyn

        Amen! Here in the Bible Belt prayer rallies are held at the schools in the evening. They can’t do it during school time, though. These kids, no matter what they are taught in school, receive strong religious training in their homes. It is inherent in their culture, and they adhere to their parentsx beliefs. They might change when they get older, especially when they go to college; but while they are in elementary school, and even into high school, this is what’s happening here.

      • Identitee

        Deerinwater, did the teachers at your son’s school follow through on your training when he was under their care? Probably not, if you had to address his limbs every time they flapped. Teachers don’t have time for that. Do you think it took your son longer to learn self-control because of the inconsistency of his training (receiving it at home but not at school or inconsistently at school)?

        My point is that parenting is difficult enough when parents are supported by society. But today the schools are actively working against the parents and making our job harder on every possible front.

        There are those who say we should just bail out of the system–homeschool all our kids. That probably works for the children of homeschoolers, but what of the other children–the ones that the homeschooled kids will have to live with when they grow up? All the schools really have to do is separate them from their parents for enough hours each day, and the intergenerational bonding is severely weakened. I do think there is an agenda here, and I think it is not just the content but also the structure of schools that is bad. As counter-intuitive as it seems, I believe “progress” at this point would consist of shortening the school day and the school year and narrowing the ages of compulsory schooling. SO much more is learned outside of school than in. The “opportunity cost” of schooling is education. Very sad.

      • Opal the Gem

        And once again Karolyn the transplant from (I think)the cesspool called New Jersey puts down her adopted area of the country.

  • uvuvuv

    nancy in nebraska, based on your response i think i figured it out. the reason those two got married was not because of any silly old notion of love, OBVIOUSLY, but because with their being operatives in a communist cell they were told to get married.

  • uvuvuv

    nadzieja, i don’t admire peter jenkins as an authour, but in his book walk across america he joined a commune for awhile in tennessee, and he witnessed enough death councils where he knew he had to get away. it took him months to figure out how he could do this without being hunted down and shot. of course with the whole country collectivized there would be no escape, would there. ruby ridge is proof of that.

  • http://www.facebook.com/bruce.miller.900 Bruce Miller

    The Plutocracy
    America on a steep decline, the “American Dream” dashed by foreclosures, lower part time wages, the SUV lost to high gasoline prices, a country where 80% of the people live within 40 miles of a uranium fissioning reactor, where homicidal wastes are collected, where waste storage exceeds design capacities by up to four times the limits. Where no solution is in sight. Even American education 39th only in this world. What in Hell happened?
    Truth is: World-wide Capital was moved out of America, to greener pastures in China. The cause of the American decline: Higher ROI’s (Return On Investment) possible on the Pan Eurasian continent. No philosophical abra-cadabra, no long and pointless dissertations, no dirges of wordy argument. No moot points to elaborate. Fact is: Capitalists are the “shareholders” in the “Corporation” and by very definition in U.S. law of a corporation, the seeking highest return on capital with minimum risk is the legal obligation of the corporation and its officers.
    Why the Pan Eurasian land-mass? Why China? Simple – look at a map. See where the most resources are. Include human resources.
    Desert America? Yes they did, but only after the “easy fruits” of America were harvested.
    The raging Vulture Capitalism and corporatism driven by a powerful multinational Plutocracy that built America, have moved on to greener pastures, leaving America in decline, leaving even Detroit City in Third World shambles, the auto industry moved to Japan, China, and South Korea. No fancy philosophies here – simply a business driven decision by the international Uber Rich consortium’s to move to greener pastures.

  • uvuvuv

    the schools are undermining what is done in church and home. in my day the school, the home and church together worked in cooperation as a three legged stool. obviously if you take away one of the legs the stool doesn’t work as well. but the supreme court says we must not do this, separation of church and state. notice how they say state and not government. that’s because we are the state, we citizens as a whole comprise the state, and so their goal is to drive a wedge between us and religion, which is a bad concept, so instead let’s say belief. but whatever, i don’t care what happens, it’s a matter of great indifference to me, but i do hope that the resulting headlines give me a little entertainment in my declining years. if people or i should say more people turn into animals, whatever. i can see your nod of agreement.

    • Karolyn

      In the “good old days”, with the population tha t existed at the time, the majority The majority went to church and had the same basic views. With the huge increase in population and subsequent variety of views, it is no longer possible to function in the same way.

  • http://gillysrooms.blogspot.com Gillysrooms from Australia

    Our Australian Labor leftist minority government in coalition with the very left minority Greens Party have this week decided they wish to Nationalise our Australian Newspapers so the Worlds richest Australian woman Gina Rinehart who has recently purchased a 19% stake in Fairfax Media on our Stock Exchange could not control the business as a Director.

    These red green politicians claim that a business owner like Gina should not have the right to have the power to sack journalists or to interfere with their left wing views they dribble in the newspapers every day because this minority green group claim she would have too much power over the newspaper group considering her shareholding of 19% but they themselves with no shareholding are doing exactly that without having invested a cent of their own money. .

    What a load of BS coming from a very minority Green RED Party group [who will be out at next election] . Its more a case that the reds are worried about losing their editorial media allies who are sending the newspaper broke with their silly powers given by the current LAZY Board of Directors. Fairfax Media has decided to sack 1900 workers including journalists many of which may not be that good…although i must admit the financial journalists have some credability in my many years reading experience.The political journalist have been long time extreme left wing supporters of socialistic lobbying groups wanting to control ownership of GREEN WEDGE Landholders rights so that non owners have rights over landowners land. Fairfax Media is closing down two of their main printing presses because fewer people want to buy newspapers when it can be read through the internet.

    So I say to both these leftist politicians that your days are numbered and I fully support GINA RINEHART is doing whatever she is currently legally to do with her own money and has the right to control her employees however she feels she should as a Director …afterall i dont see the left wing politicians buying any shares yet they want to have total control by changing our laws to suit these dimwit politicians….to become our dictators. Im sure hoping our citizens learn fast enough to get rid of them at the next elections.

    Can I also tell you readers that i have rarely had one of my Letters to Editior published in the AGE Newspaper one of the two main newspapers in Melbourne [the other owned by Rupert Murdochs NEWS LTD] because they never liked my free enterprise ideas or my grammar.

    So I say to you readers….and you think you have political problems with losing your freedoms. Who ever heard of journalists and printing workers controlling the owners of a newspaper??? FROM MELBOURNE AUSTRALIA

    • http://twitter.com/ericbischoff Eric Bischoff (@ericbischoff)

      But It’s not that clear cut is it. Yes it is a business and there are investors and they should be free to operate. But as Rupert Murdoch and his election rigging and war promoting empire has demonstrated, the press is more than just a business and it has responsibilities to the public. It can go astray and be disruptive to society especially when it starts picking sides instead of doing it’s job of investigating corruption and searching for truth.

      • http://gillysrooms.blogspot.com Gillysrooms from Australia

        I have never relied of journalistic intelligence skills to investigate anything …News Ltd is successful but still an entertainment dribble newspaper and media group written to delight the basic human need for something to gossip about and to be entertained …. Journalists have been proven often enough to be wrong most of the time relying on previously published fictional news stories to base their new stories on…only the police have the real skills to investigate and the Courts to Adjudicate and certainly never would i rely on what i read in the media penned or ‘researched’ by the journalists and their owners.

        Our local Age Newspaper has long been known to be a left leaning media group in the very fortunate position of once being a cash cow earning its keep on the rivers of classified advertising revenues generated from Real Esate, Auto and Employment advertising which has now evapourated to the new digital world of advertising. Somehow the previous and current Directors though that it was the Journalist who attracted the readership to generate the high newspaper sales and rivers of advertising income…so they never got involved in the journalistic views despite having developed a very high standard of English expression of the written word,

        HOWEVER it has been proven now that the journalists where not the ones steering the revenue, but ratrher the need for house sellers and other vendors keen interest to sell through the only medium then available. These customer have now discovered cheaper more effective advertising mediums and are no longer needing to buy the Age Newspaper to transact their business. The Age newspaper is going the way of the horse and cart…and now obsolete but still earning some revenue from those few who have not yet woken up into the 21st Century.

        Sure the journalistic prowess at the Age Newspaper is second to none, however they are still locked in their own little monopolistic world pushing leftist ideas that most of even the older reds now no longer believe in. It will be up to current management to take the horse by its mouth and do something else with those skills, but not to attract the buyers and sellers who now have numerous other avenues to sell their products.

        The Fairfax Group is in decline and if a new rich person on the block can affort to buy the horse & carts’ business before they become obsolete…so let a new shareholder have the property rights afforded normal people who buy or invest thier own money in the opportunity to save the group or do something better with the sum of its parts, but lets not have inexperience politicians tell investors what to do with how to manage any of their money or businesses.

        Politicians afterall can force people to pay tax by the gun for services they do not want or need whereas private free enterprise run businesses cannot force people to buy their goods or newspapers …having to rely on other means…service, purpose, price mechanisms, relevance, competition, Facebook, Ebay, Twitter, and many other Bob Livingston type newsletters and mediums..and which yours truly thanks Bob for allowing me to ramble on and to freely pen my thoughts over the last few months, something I was never been offered the opportunity to do in most of the Australian daily media, [except local media].

        I am enjoying it enormously that i have been able to express those views even though I have been called by lots of titles even by American citizens who are not used to debating a variety of ideas even in your so called free enterprise democratic system of government… but as our former Prime Minister John Howard often said …we have a common there are more common things that bind us than things that divide us …or something along those lines…anyone who knows correct quote please advise..
        .
        i might add that Australia still remembers how the USA saved us from the Japanese during WW11 and is eternally grateful. My family has a special link with the USA where my grandfather was an American Citizen from the 1890′s till his death and we have other family links still today in Boston. The world is a global village when sometimes wars can separate families and the locations where they end up in.

        Maybe we need to rethink the whole issue of citizenship being tied to borders and think outside the square and consider a range of global citizenship groups like the EEC have attempted to do.

      • Identitee

        Eric,
        The press can go astray, yes, but the free market will fix that (if it is actually free).

  • AnonoSedai

    Wonderful article, Mr. Smith. It seems to indicate that a sudden political reversion to Constitutional government might not work too well. Perhaps a more ideal transition would be to allow situations to develop for most people (as they did during colonial times) that require a small number of people to solve big problems without outside help. They often out-perform all expectations, even to the point of achieving what is called “miraculous,” whether it’s a group of hikers lost in the snow, or something like the Manhattan Project. Even the experimental roots of the SCRUM methodology, if anyone is familiar with them, is a testament to what people can achieve when they simply have to. These experiences build communities, and perhaps people who have gone through them would be able to appreciate limited government well enough for it to work here again. It’s a thought.

  • Brad

    This is one of those articles EVERYBODY needs to read!!!
    Brilliance attained Mr. Smith… i salute you :)

  • Mitch

    This is my video explanation about the same topic.

    Collectivism is the religion of the left.
    Collectivism or Collective could be a new name for the Democratic Party.

    This a step by step illustration to explain this.

    Liberals want to help the Collective.
    Progressives want to help the Collective.
    You are correct in that it is the opposite of personal responsibility.
    Again, the Pope describes Liberation Theology as “demonic” probably because it advocates wealth redistribution and class warfare.
    Aka Collective Salvation
    Aka Black Liberation Theology
    Aka Communists
    Aka Socialists
    Collectivists do NOT like the constitution

    RINO’s are Progressive and for the Collective.
    The Collective is their religion.
    Being for the Collective is in a way against religion. Look at England
    and other socialist countries in that most people are not religious.
    Liberals are for the Collective. 

    Presidents that were very Progressive:
    Wilson
    Roosevelt (both)
    Jackson

    Collective Salvation – watch

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uAQdQtB4WvY&feature=channel

    Liberation Theology – watch

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=77sYTSWVe-c&feature=channel

    Progressives – watch

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vfX2jFxcdTI&feature=channel

    Progressives, Collective Salvation individuals, Communists, etc. around this president Odumbo – watch

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hHH2TTWYm_0

    Resistance is futile the Collective are the Borg (Star Trek)

    What the country needs is a Harding and Coolidge approach.

    Coolidge, Roaring Twenties, Hoover prolonged depression, FDR made it the Great Depression – watch

    http://youtu.be/pdMs2cUApq0

    Depression and Progressives making it the Great Depression – watch 

    http://youtu.be/qNck7I-fZno

    I pray that I can do something to educate the next George Washington, Harding and Coolidge so that the constitution can remain supreme.

    I can also be contacted about all the teaching videos I have at:

    http://connect.freedomworks.org/node/188956/info
    Click on “Mission”


    Dr. Mitch Braddon

    Applied Kinesiologist
    and Atlas Orthogonist
    Nutritional Evaluations
    Cold Laser
    “A different kind of Wellness Care”
    Roswell & Canton
    http://www.aocroswell.com
     

  • Liberty Lover

    The brilliance of your article, Brandon, should not be measured by the trail of excrement left in its wake. People on the left all suffer from the same form of stupidity: they are dispositionally uneducable to the lessons of history. The road to hell is paved with their good intentions and ignorance of unintended consequences.

    • Stand Up Speak Out

      Well said,Liberty Lover.

  • none

    Agreed, the strongest communities are always composed of the self-sufficient, who may derive mutual support from their neighbors in rare time of need; the type of communities which collectivists aspire to build are those in which all are dependent by design, and thereby willing to be subservient to some typically self-anonted few.

  • Mike in PA

    Brandon Smith should be proud that the very diversity of opinion he espouses is thriving here in the comment section of the above article.

  • Raggs

    Well it is like this…. This administration wants to keep everyone stupid that way king oblama can do what ever the hell that he wants to do with NO repercussions… The “smart” people are a danger to the king….

    • Neil Swan

      No it’s the stupid people like you that are against Obama.

      Neil

  • M L Valentine

    “If you think you are beaten, you are,
    If you think you dare not, you don’t
    If you like to win, but you think you can’t,
    IT IS ALMOST CERTAIN YOU WON’T…”

    It is simple… Liberal D’s do not think they
    will or can win in life.

    • Karolyn

      How on earth did you come up with that deduction?

      • Raggs

        Earth?….

    • Jeff

      You are absolutely wrong. It’s the very people most assisted by progressive policies that are likely to oppose them. Why do you think less-well-off people in Kansas consistently vote for the economic agenda of the wealthiest? Read Thomas Frank’s “What’s the Matter With Kansas?” People in the Blue states are generally more prosperous than those in the Red States, plus those in the Red states tend to be net recipients of the federal spending they oppose while California, New York, etc. tend to be the net payors.

      Upper middle class “liberals” are very often quite well off. Their support for liberal or progressive policies is not designed to aid them personally. They understand that a society where a significant % of people are ill-housed, ill-fed, and ill-treated medically is not one in which they choose to live.

      • Raggs

        (offensive comment removed)

      • Raggs

        (offensive comment removed)

        • Jeff

          A very intelligent, well-reasoned response. Par for the course. Thunderbird, correct?

          • RichE

            Jeff, is thunderbird a reference to the whine?

      • rationalgab

        In my efforts to understand both sides so that I could better understand their motivations, I have often wondered why wealthy left wing liberals support the way our Government is spending more than we take in. If they were to run their finances like the Government they would not be wealthy for long. The false argument that if we just forced the rich to pay their fair share, of course would not help much at all even if you took all their money. I think that the fairness argument is just another attempt to legislate morality by for those who have adopted the religion of Socialism. Its just as bad as right wing conservatives fundamentalist wanting to legislate morality with the Abortion issue. And believe me Socialism sounds so nice and fair but history and the current financial crisis being experienced by the European Socialist entitlement governments should at least give one pause as to the eventual outcome of this type of thinking. I am not going to tell you that Socialism is wrong because each person has to decide that for themselves anymore than I would say that unregulated Capitalism is absolutely perfect. Its all a matter of degree and President Obama has introduced a radical shift towards Socialism in a very short amount of time. It has awaken and scared many citizens who don’t feel like they really understand what is happening or those who feel differently. This rapid change has energized both bases and the Independents must decide whether they fully support this radical change and the consequences of it. This election is really a referendum on whether we want to go back towards the type of economy that made us a super power or whether we want to become more like the Socialist Model that prides itself on fairness and making the outcome the same for everyone rather than rewarding those who work hard and take more risks in developing ideas or businesses that grow the economy for everyone. We should be concentrating on make equal opportunity available through education rather than making the same outcome for everyone the same. All American should have this opportunity to grow financial security for themselves and their families. And of course we should take care of those who have a real need. And of course we should have enough regulation to stop corruption in business. Everyone who for all to gain wealth as investors and entreprenuers. This election is so important that voters should do some research so they have a better understanding of the differences. And if you just listen to the hateful propaganda from either side you are missing the point. Getting everyone in this nation to realize that they must vote or be content with the outcome is of the highest priority. This election will go down in history as the vote that saved America no matter which side wins because the winners write the history. So, whether you support Socialism or Capitalism, don’t miss this opportunity to be counted as one of those great Americans who cared enough to vote and decide America’s future. And no matter who wins, we must start holding our elected officials accountable.

        • Jeff

          Rational:

          You err if you think the choice is so stark. Regardless of the outcome in November, we will have a mixed economy. Neither pure capitalism nor socialism. The question is whether the public sector invests a bit more to stimulate the private sector. This is done by Republicans as well as by democrats – it’s just that when democrats do it, republicans call it socialism. In every recent recovery from recession (under Presidents Reagan, Bush, and Bush, Jr.), the Federal Government “stimulated” the economy by aiding State and local governments to hire teachers, etc. Under Obama, such spending has gone down? If it hadn’t, unemployment would be significantly lower (1-2%). Is this Obama’s fault or the Republicans in Congress?

          If Romney gets elected, he will not do the things he is saying he will. That is our only hope and it’s a pretty good one given his marginal relationship to the truth. However, there are true believers in Congress and he may not have the guts to say “no” to their radical right wing agenda. If you carefully examine the modern-day Republicans, you will see they have become a radically anti-government, anti-science, anti-knowledge party. If you think good things can come from putting such people in power, have at it.

  • Pete Sagi

    The United States has gone way over into collectivism, and Obamacare is just the latest example … HOWEVER … here in the US, collectivism is still, at least on paper, VOLUNTARY. It all starts with obtaining and using an SSN, which, according to the slave enumeration bureau at ssa dot gov, is 100% voluntary and not required to live OR WORK in the US.

    How it all works … it is the private sector that forces most everyone into SSN use via policy and not any law. Mainly, those are policies based upon ignorance and fear. A mass movement to refuse SSN use would overturn the socialist applecart here in the US. So would legislation that required full disclosure anytime an SSN was asked for. Use an SSN and you will pay not for any retirement program but rather your own enslavement.

    Pete

    • Raggs

      I have absolutely NO respect for “pres” oblama to me he is dead. He reminds me of my dad that was never awake unless he had a bottle in his hand always blaming us kids ( then ) when he woke up the next day for what he did the night before… Many times my “dad” wrecked his truck on the way home from an all night stooper waking up the next morning without a clue that he was even alive but aware enough to blame the kids on his drunken stooper… My “dad” never owned up to anything that he himself screwed up…
      king oblama is just a (expletive deleted) of the same nature always blaming someone else for his worthlessness…

      • Deerinwater

        TMI , too much information.

      • Raggs

        (offensive comment removed)

  • Raggs

    (offensive comment removed)

  • RichE

    Mr. Brandon Smith,
    Would the purpose of the community then be to edify the individual?

    • Brandon Smith

      In a way.

      I would say that community is obviously an extension of the need for survival and mutual aid, and this leads some people to believe that the “collective” is more important than the individual. What these folks don’t seem to realize or understand is that the more unique and aware individuals within a community, the stronger and more adaptable it becomes. Therefore, it is in the BEST INTERESTS of the community to foster and nurture individualism and freedom, even if they have to abandon their preconceived notions of some “greater good for the greater number”, because individuals give life and safety to the community.

      To summarize, developing individuals within a society IS the greater good in the long run for everyone.

      • RichE

        Thank you for your reply. Hopefully you can make it a campaign plank, “Developing individuals within a society”.

  • rationalgab

    This site certainly creates a lot of controversy in all the comments. It is a good example of how the lack of civil and rational discussion is dividing our country. Most of these comments seem to come from intelligent people but most do not facilitate or foster anyone to change all their preconceive notions. Of course lively debate is very necessary in a free society but the lack of civil and rational discussion tends to just condemn the writers to become more entrenched into their own Ego protected version of reality.

    I myself as an observer, wonder if these writers will ever realize that perhaps they have much more in common than they have in radical differences. Don’t we all want to care for and protect our loved ones? Don’t we all want enough freedom to pursue happiness? And shouldn’t we all recognize that in most cases we give up our ability to love one another and change another’s strongest held beliefs by insulting and condemning others that hold alternative beliefs. We give ourselves over to our autonomic nervous systems when we adopt confrontational positions which triggers our “fight or flight” basic survival instincts. That is not to say that we are not well served by these in life threatening situations but to live life constantly in this mode doesn’t leave much room for rational and spiritual faculties to have much say. Too many well intentioned people don’t understand that our “sacred beliefs” are just that “beliefs” rather than absolute knowledge or truth.

    I see how divided our nation is in a dichotomous fight to have it completely our way? I believe that when one side condemns the other of not caring at all about the welfare of their neighbors and wanting to push Grandma of the Cliff, etc., etc., is just as ridiculous and dividing as the other side casting all that our pro-choice as wanton “baby killers”, etc., etc. We have such horrible examples of the partisan politicking by those who would lead our nation, that without rational and civil examples set by those who have been entrusted to raise our children (parents) up to be responsible, rational, civil, and clear thinking voters and leaders of tomorrow we end up with unnecessary personal fights and group supported wars with our heinously portrayed enemies.

    Now believe me, I know thee is a time for standing up and fighting for principles and a time for peaceful co-existence with others who believe they have a better way. If our forefathers had not the courage to revolt against an oppressive governing system America with all its success and freedoms would never have come to be or survive as we have. And I fear the drift away from our founding principles but I fear even more the radicalization of both sides of the argument. We all need to be open to honestly examining our so called enemies beliefs before we can intelligently suggest counter point.

    This is a time of great turmoil and radicalization, but I like to believe that the best ideas will win out in a system that allows free and open discussion. Even our leaders who never reveal their true intentions until they have won power will be found out through the free exchange of ideas by those who have been taught by example to question everything including their own self-righteous beliefs. Our greatest enemy is fanaticism which has always been the greatest enemy of freedom and rational thought and civil discourse.

    Any organized system, whether it be man-made religion or government is deleterious when it tries to cut off free thinking and free choice. When someone allows any authority to circumvent their personal ability to commune freely with their higher power, whether it be God or the replacement of God with human leaders they are giving up the most important responsibility of freedom loving individuals or group think. When everyone is free to express their own thoughts without immediately self-righteous reprisal, and encouraged to claim and protect that most basic right, the best will win out. It is only through the condemnation and rejection of free thought that Tyrants can rule.

    • RichE

      Rationalgab,
      The problem is when a person is defined by their beliefs. You can’t question their beliefs without them thinking you are questioning them. That’s why so many posts are bigoted. Threaten the beliefs and you threaten the being. Since beliefs are born of the abstract and not the rational defense becomes irrational.

    • http://teamlaw.org Jazzabelle

      rationalgab, wow.

      Sounds like someone just got finished reading Do I Have To Give Up Me To Be Loved By (You/My Kids/God/etc.).

      • rationalgab

        No, I haven’t read that book. But there are many more than myself who understand how important communication is. Most know better than to post on sites full of hate. I haven’t had anyone here call me a dirty name yet…but just wait. I hope it doesn’t happen and maybe I made some sense to someone?

  • rationalgab

    What about the belief that everyone has the right to their own beliefs? Can’t even beliefs be discussed in a civil and rational way between non-radicalized people who are not overly defensive and insecure about their own beliefs?

    • Raggs

      Rational minds come from rational people…
      And for the most part rationality has left the stage when obama was “elected” and now we find ourselves with “tolerance”.. My tolerance is very slim with my rational thinking on a wire due to the fact that king oblama truely believes that he is my king… The government will do anything in that power to control your mind and what you have as thinking.. get it?

  • Raggs

    (offensive comment removed)

  • rationalgab

    Do you really think that you can fight and argue others into changing their minds and beliefs? I assume you would like to influence Obama voters into understanding that they need to open their eyes and minds to see that their they should vote for changes with the 2012 Presidential election that are more supportive of your opinions and beliefs. Otherwise, why would you take the time and energy to post? If you only throw bombs at the other guys you have little chance of getting anything other than a bomb in return. If you are so sure of your opinions, then think about understanding the other side enough to help those unfortunate souls come to see the error of their ways in a manner that does not just entrench them deeper in their defense of their prior vote. The Independents will decide this election and you won’t win them over by calling them names and alienating them. This is a critical time in America and we need all the help we can get.

    • Jeff

      I think we’re all better off if Raggs stays indoors (away from cars and voting booths). You never know when that drone is coming for you.

  • http://gravatar.com/wth44 wth44

    If anyone wants to get a clear view on collectivism, a must read is Ayn Rand’s “We the Living.” The story is set in Russia, around 1917. Excellent read and an eye opening experience. The problem with collectivism is that it discounts someone that wants to give just for the sake of giving. Collectivism is a failed experiment and doesn’t work in a FREE society. It goes against Christianity as well as people are judged as individuals and on the individual decisions they make, not as a collective.

    • Deerinwater

      I’ve always thought “We the Living” was Ayn Rand best work and I’ve always been a huge fan of hers but not for the same reasons most do.

      Ayn Rand was a very powerful writer and salesman, she could sell a keg of rusty nail and charge you twice the price and make you believe you were getting a good deal.

      To weaker minds, Ayn Rand had a field day twisting realities and moralities. She could justify having two lovers and be untrue to both and actually convince you that she was the victim. A narcissistic at heart, she could borrow the irony of someone pain and human suffering and misdirect it to her advantage and you would find yourself cheering her on.

      “We the living” depicts the bleakest of times under an oppressive government where people are shot for gathering fire wood in their efforts to stay alive and endure long, cold Russian winters.

  • gunner689AI

    Collectiveism, (Socialism), is just Communism without the bayonnets.

    • Liberty Lover

      Everyone in a socialist society understands the bayonnets are there, gunner, even if they are not in plain view. Widespread theft is not possible without the implicit promise of bayonnets.

    • Eric Jones

      First of all collectiviesm socialism and communism are ALL one part of the same whole secondly ONLY FACISTS use bayonnets.

  • EccentricOrbit

    Thank you for this article. There are too few people who are willing to separate actual community and a voluntary society from all the control-freak insanity of the collectivists.

  • IndigenousSynergist

    I am an independent who thinks the system has become hijacked and both parties are far more interested in self-preservation and lining their own pockets than anything near a government “by the people, for the people”. I came here hoping to find others who feel the same.

    I am disillusioned, nearly disgusted, by the hyperbole and shameless demagoguery displayed by this article and from the majority of those posting here. To an unaffiliated outsider this page is nothing but a preacher and his choir in a circle jerk of mental masturbation.

    Community starts with compassion of which this forum is bereft. I may not know what the answer is; but it sure isn’t here.

    • Deerinwater

      Excellent Summation Indigenous Synergist

      “I am disillusioned, nearly disgusted, by the hyperbole and shameless demagoguery displayed by this article and from the majority of those posting here. To an unaffiliated outsider this page is nothing but a preacher and his choir in a circle jerk of mental masturbation.

      Community starts with compassion of which this forum is bereft. I may not know what the answer is; but it sure isn’t here.”

      Disillusioned perhaps but being forewarned is being forearmed. Know your enemy, especially the ones that walk among you and make claims of being Christian Patriots.

      Not often but sometimes they make claims of having great “compassion” and defend these claims with data that suggest “Conservative” are the most generous “givers” to charity compared to liberal counterparts. Of course this data is cooked up for that very purpose and riddled with holes. For one thing, they was to take credit for all organized church giving and enter it in the “Conservative” column.

      But one things is for certain, like your observation, if they have much “compassion” for their fellow man they hide it well.

      • Liberty Lover

        The road to economic hell is paved with the short-sighted compassion of a Left that has zero comprehension of unintended consequences and is geared, more often than not, to winning votes while fostering dependency. They view the “tough love” of conservatism as lacking in compassion when, in reality, it produces responsible adults able to care for themselves and those they love. Compassion needs to be measured by results, not by the emotions expressed by the unenlightened.

      • Deerinwater

        The road to economic hell is paved with the short-sighted compassion of a Left that has zero comprehension of unintended consequences and is geared, more often than not, to winning votes while fostering dependency. ”

        LOL! So Obama is counting on 2% of the national population and the Gay vote (“fudge packer ‘r us”) to swing the popular vote in his favor?

        ‘I;m sorry, I am just not buying that viewpoint. A vote winner, that was not!

        Think really hard ~ and try again! But that argument won’t float!

        And you speak of “Economic Hell” like you might know what you are talking about,while you don’t know $hit from $hoe poli$h about anything beside your “OWN ECONOMICS!” As You wish to assume, if it’s good at your house it should be good everywhere!

        While you have worn out 2 Lazy Boys and 1 Bark-a-Loungers in your “Retirement Years” does not offer you an accurate view of what current working Americans must deal with.

        Shortsighted my assets!

        • Liberty Lover

          Short-sighted is not your only asset. Crass and ignorant also find a place in that pantheon.

      • Deerinwater

        Crass , you bet! arrogance? ~ up yours!

  • Pingback: A Tiny Insignificant Speck of Dust… | Women Sublime

  • http://www.hollywoodrepublican.net Frank DeMartini

    Here is an article I’ve written that deals with the Democratic Convention and their turn to collectivism:

    http://www.hollywoodrepublican.net/2012/09/dnc-looks-to-past-to-conceal-its-future/

    • Jeff

      Big deal. You wrote an article. Is that supposed to mean something? I see you’re full of generalities about socialism. communism, and the heroic cowboy individualism of the Republicans. But specifically, what do you mean? Should poor kids not go to school? Not eat? Are those programs too collectivist? Should there not be banking and securities laws? Who enforces them? Food safety, worker safety?

      How about the fire department? Shouldn’t rugged individualists have their own fire trucks standing by? I’m sure when the first fire department was proposed, some rugged individualist said it was too mamby-pamby collectivist.

      Where is the communism? What industries have been nationalized? Do you have any credentials to share your wisdom with the rest of us? I think you must have failed Poli Sci 101 because communism is all about ownership of the means of production. I didn’t notice where in your “article” you discussed that.

      We don’t live on individual family farms anymore. In a civilized city/state/country, there are some things better accomplished by government than by individuals. Politics is a discussion about which things those are. Without specifics, it’s nothing more than mental masturbation.

      • Deerinwater

        I didn’t bother pulling it up but I’ve glad you did Jeff. ~ To know that 5% of the people eat 70% of the nuts at a house party of 6 or more is not really information I can use.

        I’m seriously considering growing two heads and a pointed tail to not be confused for a republican…..

  • Itasca

    I just found this article today, so I apologize for the tardiness of this comment.

    This is one of the best discussions of community vs. collectivism I have ever read! We would do well to disseminate it far and wide as we fight for a return to the founding principles of these United States of America.

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